open thread – June 8-9, 2018

by Alison Green on June 8, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Peaches*

    I know this is long, but please bear with me. I would appreciate any and all advice!

    Basically, a little over a year ago, I got a promotion from an admin-type position, to a sales support position. Ever since, I’ve regretted taking the job. There are numerous reasons I’m not fond of the position – working daily with an outdated, heavily bugged website (with no signs of our IT team fixing things), lack of consistency (sometimes I’m totally over my head, but most times I sit around for weeks with nothing to do, feeling underutilized), the position being different than it was described to me, and my personality just not being well suited for this job (I like organization, structure, and thrive on detail oriented work, none of which describes my current position). With that being said, my boss is my biggest fan. He’s constantly telling me that I’m the hardest worker he has ever met, expresses what an asset he thinks I am to the company, calls me a model employee, and has given me near-perfect reviews on every annual review I’ve had with him.

    So, I’ve recently decided to talk to my boss about why I think my position isn’t a great fit, and how I could be better utilized in other areas (I’ve noted specific roles that I think would be good for me, that would also benefit the company more than in the role I’m in now.) I truly love my company, and want to continue working here – just not in my current role. With that being said, there aren’t technically any open positions in my office (we are a national company, but our office is small – 25 employees). However, I’ve typed up a (rather lengthy) document about some areas that I see a need in, that I think I could serve in. I’m hoping that in doing this, my boss will work with me to create a new role for me in the company, because I *think* he’d rather have me in a different role, than not have me at all. I’d even be willing to cut my hours if he doesn’t think there is enough work for me to do elsewhere (perhaps 6 hour days instead of 8 hour days). Thankfully, my husband has a wonderful job that gives me the flexibility to do this. I’m also willing to stay in my current position for a few months while they hire someone for my current role, and also train said person. I know it would be a lot of money for the company to hire another person for my role, while still keeping me, but my company is extremely well off (I work in a field where there will always be a need, regardless of the economy).

    My question is – does anyone think this is a bad idea? I’ve given this so much thought, and am well prepared to meet with my boss with the document I’ve compiled (although I have not yet talked to him to set up a meeting). I don’t *think* he’ll jump straight to “well, if you don’t like your current role, there’s no job for you here.” But, if he did, I could survive being unemployed for a bit with my husband’s job being what it is. I also have my substitute teacher certification, and think I could find work in that area fairly fast. However, I really, really want to stay here though. My office is 5 miles from home, and I have wonderful coworkers. I’m super nervous just thinking about meeting with him, but think this is a risk I need to take.

    What does everyone else think?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think if you focus on the benefits to the boss/company, it’s a great idea.

    2. Rat Racer*

      Hi Peaches,

      I’ve been (and am in) a somewhat similar position myself: you see an acute need within the company, you know how to fix it, your job isn’t positioned to help you solve it.

      Here’s my recommendation to you: rather than telling your boss that you want a different job, I’d frame this as “I see all these gaps that need to be filled within the company, and I have some great ideas on how I could help!” I’d then show him a 1-page executive summary of your findings – like your elevator pitch – but don’t get into solutioning how your role would need to change in order to make this happen. Let him make that leap.

      Often, managers get overwhelmed and intimidated by shaking up the status quo and going through the administrative hurdles of HR. You don’t want your ideas to get shot down from the get go – and who knows – maybe your boss will arrive at the conclusion that he needs to create a new position for you on his own. Then, he’ll be motivated to work it through on your behalf.

      That’s my .02… good luck!

      1. Ali G*

        I would add – don’t frame it as an ultimatum. Make it more as a “development plan” for your role and if you can, let him know you are willing to work towards the new position over time. So if he agrees in theory, but balks at the idea of a new hire right now, you can lay out how your current position can evolve, say over 6 months, into the new position and during that time the plan for your back fill can be implemented.
        Believe me, once you know you are on your way to what you want, that 6 months or whatever will be so much easier.
        Good luck!

    3. The Other Dawn*

      It seems like a situation for “know your boss and your company.” I don’t think it’s a bad idea at all, but be prepared for him to say he can’t do anything for you (and it sounds like you are). I think if the choice is being miserable everyday at a company you love with no chance of anything changing vs. being unemployed for a bit, I’d take a chance and see what happens. I’ve been in a job in which I was completely miserable the whole time I was there, and it’s rough. Good luck.

    4. AliceW*

      If you really don’t like the position you have now make sure you are willing to walk away. Have you already offered to take on other projects, even ones unrelated to you current role? Some people think of their job as limited to the duties in the job description, but you can always volunteer to do much more (in most places). I do think it makes sense to sit down with your boss and tell him you are unhappy in your current position and the high level reasons why (without complaining of course). You can indicate that you love working for the company and would love to transition into another role if one becomes available or if there is an option to create a new role for you, you would be interested in such an opportunity. I personally, would not hand him a document given that it sounds like you are fairly junior and it could be presumptuous to suggest other options when you might not be aware of the department’s finances, needs, goals etc. If he seems open to the idea of a new role, you can then indicate you have some ideas. Don’t offer to work less hours.

      1. Peaches*

        I often ask for extra work, but my boss splits time between here and a branch two hours away, so he often forgets, or has limited time to give me extra work (and when he does, I finish it rather quickly and then have another several days before he’s in the office again.)

        I don’t know if I’d consider myself junior…I’ve been at my company for almost 5 years (nearly 4 in my previous role, a little over 1 in my current role.) The document is more for my personal use in the meeting that includes points that I plan on hitting on, not an actual document I’m going to hand to him that says, “here’s what I should be doing here.” It’s definitely not presumptuous!

        1. AliceW*

          I always tell my employees who I think have potential to move up, never ask for more work, instead suggest things/projects you think need to get done and volunteer to do them. For junior employees (and I mean not in years, but in responsibilities), if you don’t know what else needs to get done, ask around, do some research on competitor firms, etc. You seem to already have ideas. Maybe you don’t need to leave your current role right now, maybe you just need to expand it and grow it into something else and eventually leave behind the tasks you don’t like to do. But if you don’t like anything about the work you do currently, then it is time to move one, within your own company or elsewhere. Life is too short. Good luck.

    5. June*

      You are giving too much power to your boss to make life decisions for you. You are willing to shorten your hours to meet his/company’s needs but does that meet your needs? You are willing to stay in a job that you don’t like for a few months but does that meet your needs to be happy at your job? You are willing to save the company money but does that meet your need to move to better-fitting job?
      I would suggest the following:
      1. In case your boss wants a copy of your talking paper, I would shorten it (the long version might overwhelm him).
      2. Keep the longer version for your notes.
      3. You could offer the longer version to your boss, if he wants the details.
      4. Give him a deadline to move you into another position. If you don’t, there is no reason for him to move you. You are doing great at your current job so it’s no risk/trouble for your boss if leaves you there.
      5. Don’t go back to your previous position! At that point, your boss will be happy with your work and see no need to move you.
      6. Update your resume and start applying for other jobs in the local area. Seeing that others would be thrilled to hire you will put less pressure for this career move to happen. Right now, you only talk about one path for your career. Don’t limit yourself.
      I hope you see that you are worthy of so much more and your boss should doing whatever he can do to make you happy, not you doing whatever you can to make him and the company happy.

      1. Magee*

        I wouldn’t recommend leveraging other job offers to get your boss to create a new role for you. There have been plenty examples on this site of how this has not worked out well. I recommend having the conversation with your boss first. If it doesn’t go how you like, then you may need to consider moving on to another company. But you won’t know until you ask.

      2. Jady*

        On the first discussion of the topic I do not think demanding a deadline is appropriate. OP could ask for a time frame, but the boss is likely to need to discuss and arrange the movement (if he agrees to it) and would have no idea on a realistic time frame. It may involve paperwork, HR, upper management approval, if they are creating a brand new position even more paperwork and processes to go through.

        Assuming he agrees, keep an eye on the timeframe. If they start dragging it out or make no forward movement, that’s the point where you would start forcing dates.

    6. Jadelyn*

      I actually did something similar to this to get my current position. I was hired as an HR Assistant to do admin work. Over time, I would ask people if there was anything I could help with, and pick up new duties that way. And I’m very very good with Excel, including a lot of the fancy stuff most people don’t know how to do, so I started getting a reputation for being good with data and analysis, and people started bringing projects to me that needed that kind of expertise.

      Then our team began to transition to a new HRIS vendor, and it…was not going well. It was, to put it mildly, a clusterf*** of epic proportions. And because I’m a techie-type person, I offered to help out and began teaching myself the ins and outs of the new system.

      At that point, I was able to start proposing projects that I knew I could do that would be helpful to the organization and the leadership team – new reports, dashboards, custom fields in the HRIS that we could use. I talked with my manager and our VP, and we drafted a new job description for me that would move my focus to the systems and data work that I’m best at, and make the admin support secondary. It took a long time to get approved, priced out by our comp guy, and for me to finally get the change made official, but we did it.

      All this is to say – is there any way you can start integrating the improvements you can see needing made into your current role, when you’re in those lull periods you mentioned? Either purely on your own initiative, or by just saying to your boss, “Hey, I think having a comprehensive llama grooming training program would be really helpful for our staff, especially new hires. I’ve got some free time right now while we’re between projects, if I put that together and brought it to you, is that something you think might be valuable and would you mind if I do that?” Focus on the task, not the job description. Then when you go to talk to him about actually changing your job, it can be less “this is stuff I could do for the organization if you let me” and more “this is stuff I’ve already done that’s outside my regular purview; just imagine what more I could do if my role changed to let me focus on this stuff exclusively instead!” Give him a taste of it, then ask him to move you into a role where you can give him the rest of it too.

      1. Adlib*

        This is really great advice! I’m in a role that I actually used to support so when the previous lady left, I took over and still do my previous tasks. More and more I’m finding I have less time to do those previous tasks since I’m more involved with high level stuff now, and I think in 6 months to a year, I’ll be doing this with my job/boss. I’ll need a 2nd team member again. (The company is already saving money at this point.)

    7. Jenny*

      If you are often sitting around for weeks with nothing to do, then you’re potentially in a good position to be developing a new role from where you are. So I think the conversation with the boss could be along the lines of “I love the company, I’ve discovered that my current role isn’t what I want to be doing, I have a few ideas of directions I could go that might be a win-win for me and the company, what do you think of these and are you willing/able to work with me to add these responsibilities to my job now, and to transition that into a new position for me over a period of time that might work for both of us.” Good luck.

      1. Magee*

        I like this advice the best. It’s clear and concise and doesn’t sound demanding. I also second the advice of others to create a shorter list of the needs you see around your office that you can hand your boss.

      2. Peaches*

        This is pretty much to a T what the document I’ve typed up says (to be clear, I’m not handing the document to my boss, I’m using it to make sure I hit on everything I want to say).

        “I love the company, I’ve discovered that my current role isn’t what I want to be doing, I have a few ideas of directions I could go that might be a win-win for me and the company, what do you think of these and are you willing/able to work with me to add these responsibilities to my job now, and to transition that into a new position for me over a period of time that might work for both of us.” –this script is perfect; thanks!

    8. Jocelyn*

      You need to employ some behavior modification techniques to change coworker’s behavior. Set up a small mirror (like a camping mirror), so you can see your touchy/feely coworker as he creeps up behind you. That way you can say, “Don’t touch me” and make a sudden movement like standing up/spinning around in your chair before he gets a chance to touch you. Also, bring in some heavy, hard to move items to make a high and wide barrier between you and hoarding coworker- maybe 3” notebooks filled with printouts, floppy, soft cover manuals/books. Keep in an empty copy paper box or use metal bookends. Find a reason to call a manager further up the food chain while coworker is playing loud video, then try to give a project update and apologize for the background noise as you explain coworker is watching videos…on company time.

    9. HermioneMe*

      Document everything!! In detail!! Don’t leave that documentation at work – send it to yourself at home. Go to them again and (professionally) state that these things have to change. Have a lawyer send them that letter. Then if they terminate you after that, go back to the lawyer – I think you have grounds to sue them for many issues. I think that’s the ONLY way to get their attention. (It may not stop anything, but you may be able to get enough of a settlement to tide you through a job search!

      If they terminate you, you can use that documentation with the unemployment office as proof of why they fired you (for bringing work related issues to them). Or quit – by having your documentation – you can tell unemployment that you had no choice but to quit. This would be called constructive discharge. (From Google:) ” If your work situation was so untenable that you were really forced to quit, most states will allow you to collect unemployment.” If these managers try to deny you getting unemployment – appeal it and make them come to the unemployment hearing.

      I am normally not one to sue. I am an HR Director and I am so appalled at your manager’s and HR’s non-action that I think it may be totally appropriate to sue in this situation.

    10. Gotham Bus Company*

      By any chance, is there a current employee who is unhappy in a job that interests you and who might prefer your current position? Maybe you and that person could ask permission to swap jobs.

    11. Windward*

      What happens if you think about it as ways to have your role evolve, instead of starting with a request for a new role? Every role I’ve had has evolved through adding responsibilities over time.

      How would you talk with your boss about things you see that would benefit the company & that you’d like to do/learn? Hey, boss, I’ve noticed x & y. How about I do a & b about them, & run the results by you to see if it’s as useful as I anticipate/if you’d like to tweak how I’m working/if this opens the door to something I haven’t thought about? You know I’ve been asking for more work, so I have plenty of time to try this.

      That way you’re not asking for him to rethink roles & budget etc, ask to have a role created, etc. Instead you’re asking permission to use down time to do something for the company. It would get you closer to what you’d like, & opens the door to having your role & your work rethought. And gives you experience in things you’d like to do for your next move, when you decide it’s time.

  2. anon for this to be safe*

    My office moved to an open office plan about 6 months ago. I’m completely miserable for several reasons. I sit in a four person cube area of the open office plan. All three of my cube mates are men. I’m a woman.

    1. The first person who sits next to me is a hoarder. He has so much junk that it creeps into my area and makes me feel claustrophobic. He gets angry if you tell him to throw anything away. I’ve been relegated to a tiny area with enough room for my computer and phone, but all his stuff has basically pushed my stuff out of the area. Most of his hoarding is junk – used food containers he won’t throw out, multiple computers he never uses, endless coffee cups and piles of papers. The food has attracted roaches at times.

    2. The second person in my open cube area is partially deaf and plays everything on his computer so loud that I can hear it even if I’m using headphones. He’s also autistic and doesn’t respect boundaries. I’ve told him not to touch me before, especially when he tries to touch my shoulder or arm from behind me because it scares me, but he still does it. He also knows I keep candy in my file cabinet that I use to replenish one of the department candy dishes, and people told me he goes through it when I’m away from my desk. I keep some personal items in my file cabinet, including my purse. I’ve started locking the drawer and he’s made such a fuss over not having access to my candy even though there are open candy dishes in multiple areas.

    3. The third person in my cube is SO LOUD. He takes personal calls, watches TV, movies, and concerts all day long and also tries to interrupt every conversation nearby because he wants to be part of it, even when he has nothing to add. He has a temper and gets very angry if you tell him to be quiet. Angry enough that he’ll start yelling and punching a desk or slamming things down or angrily smashing his keyboard.

    We’re only allowed to work from home one day a week and my manager won’t let me work from home even though he acknowledges that the three coworkers in my area are causing a problem. Management has talked to all three coworkers but nothing has changed.

    Part of the problem is that they’re inconsiderate, but the larger problem is that two of the men get incredibly angry when I ask them nicely to stop their antics and the other man touches me when I don’t want to be touched and goes through my private things, and management and HR says he’s protected from repercussions because he’s autistic and partially deaf.

    I’m so miserable. I’ve cried in the mornings because I can’t bring myself to come into work. I hate being in the office surrounded by people who are making my job a living nightmare.

    1. Anon Accountant*

      That sounds miserable. My sympathies. Can you transfer departments or are you considering another job?

      1. anon for this to be safe*

        My manager has sabotaged people who tried to transfer and HR won’t let people transfer without the OK from their existing manager or department, so that’s not an option. I’m looking for an out for this and plenty of other none cube related reasons.

        1. Gotham Bus Company*

          Ah, yes, the old “let’s make it easier for employees to leave for a competitor than to transfer internally” theory of management. Fails every time.

    2. Johnny*

      Like almost every “my coworkers are terrible” issue, the issue here seems to really be “my management is terrible.” Write things down, go to management, explain that the situation has not improved, and you are not enjoying coming to work because of it. If they still don’t fix it, then you should rest assured that you are correct in leaving.

      1. anon for this to be safe*

        I’ve gone to management so many times, and even to HR, and they told me they can’t do anything. I’m looking for a new job.

        2. Tardigrade*

          They say they can’t do anything but it’s really that they won’t do anything. It might sound extreme, but I would ask around if anyone would like to trade seats. If you find someone willing, then take that to management/HR. If not (and I bet not), then that really speaks to the intolerable situation you have and you can also take that to management/HR.

          I also doubt that the loudness issue is only affecting you and you alone. Have you asked others nearby about it in a friendly way? “What did you think of the latest episode Fergus watched today?”

      2. anon for this to be safe*

        But also, my coworkers are terrible because anyone who doesn’t respect my personal space to NOT TOUCH ME when I ask them not to is also a problem. I don’t need a male coworker come up from behind to lay his hand on my arm or back or to root around in my personal things, or for another coworker to start slamming and throwing things because I ask him to turn down the volume on his TV watching.

        1. SoCalHR*

          On one hand I completely feel your frustration with the personal space thing, but you are dealing with a unique situation on that one.
          I am by no means an expert on special needs, but can you try a different approach with the second person? Maybe make a new routine for him to come in your cubical? Tell him that he needs permission to cross the line into your cubical (could you put tape on the ground) and that he needs to knock and get permission to enter, like boarding a boat (maybe even put up a red sign that says “knock here for Sally”). And I think locking the drawer is the best bet, but if he gets the idea he has to knock and get permission to enter before crossing the line into your cube, then that maybe would help with the entering your cubical when you’re gone.
          (Any special needs experts want to chime in if this is totally off base?)

          1. neverjaunty*

            “Don’t touch me” is very clear and not something an autistic person is incapable of understanding. Dude touching her anyway has zero to do with special needs and everything to do with being an asshole. People can be both.

            Same for being politely asked to turn down sound or to keep to one’s cube.

            1. Thlayli*

              Yes yes yes. Reasonable accommodations for autism absolutely do NOT include being allowed to touch your coworkers when they don’t want to be touched.

              1. Thlayli*

                Nor do reasonable accommodations for being partially deaf include being allowed to play everything on your computer so loud that other people can hear it with headphones in. He can get a hearing aid, he can wear headphones himself. Those are “reasonable” accommodations. Forcing your colleagues to listen to your pc on loudspeaker all day is not “reasonable”.

          2. anon for this to be safe*

            When I say cube, I don’t know if I’m explaining it correctly. It’s an open office space, so “cube” is the term used to refer to my chair, computer, and desk. There are no walls and it’s all open so all he has to do is roll over or approach me (he sits diagonally from me to my back). To knock on anything he’d have to get right up in my space and that already happens as it is.

            I asked facilities about tape for the desk to stop the hoarder, but they won’t OK using tape to mark off space, so I don’t think that’s an option.

            1. Ali G*

              So facilities will micromanage your use of tape but they won’t do anything about ROACHES????
              This is ridic. What would happen if you waited until Hoarder left one day, threw out anything that was obviously garbage, moved all his other sh*t to his side of the desk and got your own damn tape and made a line that designated the space, and then filled up your space with your stuff right up to the line so there is no more room for his crap to encroach? Because honestly, that is where I am with this one. He’s disgusting and you shouldn’t have to be subject to that.
              The other angry dude? I would just ignore him – if he get’s pissed he can’t be in every conversation that’s his issue. Just keep repeating – Fergus I am having a private conversation, please don’t interrupt. Then let him throw his tantrum.
              I would also be taking pics and videos at this point and sending them to HR on a regular basis.

              1. JustaTech*

                Oh for goodness sake, no tape? I guess I would ask what the consequences would be if you brought in your own painter’s tape (the kind that doesn’t damage surfaces) and just put it down early one morning or late one night. But that would depend on how upset facilities would get and what the consequences for you would be.
                If tape really isn’t an option, could you get something like a hard plastic or metal file holder to use as a wall?

                Mr Touchy is awful. Could you start flailing your arms really big (not trying to hit him, but very obvious) every time he touches you, and repeating loudly “I’ve told you not to touch me!”

                Mr Angry sounds like a nightmare. I would get nothing done around him, between the being loud and the being angry.

                The only other thing I could possibly think of is to document how much these guys’ specific behavior impacts your productivity. (How the heck does he get away with watching movies at work with no headphones? Or watching movies at all?)

                anon for this to be safe, I am so sorry for you. You’ve got a trifecta of terribleness *and* worthless management. Good luck job hunting.

              2. anon for this to be safe*

                Facilities has come to put stuff down and clear out trash when I put in a ticket about roaches, but I have to do it every time the problem comes up. The hoarder throws his own version of a tantrum when his stuff is thrown away.

                I’ve given up on HR. I brought up getting my lawyer to send a letter about the coworker who won’t stop touching me and they shrugged. Word from other coworkers is that HR has just settled any cases and isn’t phased by lawyers (we had a couple sexual harassment situations that were ignored for a long time because HR either “misplaced” written documentation or didn’t want to do anything). The company is corporate and I guess has enough money for these types of small lawsuits?

                1. Specialk9*

                  So you have complained, HR shrugged. You complained and soft-threatened a lawyer and they shrugged. You think they have deep pockets.

                  So… What do you have to lose by sending a legal letter? If they fire you, even bigger settlement!

                2. Thlayli*

                  Yeah this is the obvious thing to do. IANAL but I can’t believe it’s legal to be told that you have to allow another coworker to touch you repeatedly when there is no valid business reason to do so.

                3. Only here for the teapots*

                  Can you file a complaint with any state/federal agencies? Definitely document everything. If you have to quit you may still be able to get unemployment if you can show you’re dealing with egregious circumstances like unwanted touching and violent anger.
                  I had a boss that would loom over me and yell while flailing her arms, which the unemployment office considered fair grounds for quitting, combined with other horrifying working conditions.

                4. Woodswoman*

                  Besides being unbearable, what you are describing is illegal. I agree with others that at this point it’s time to escalate with legal action. Check out the federal EEOC at https://www.eeoc.gov/index.cfm and whatever state agency is comparable where you live. Have your attorney take action. You deserve whatever payment you can get, and look at it as a ticket out of this hell workplace. And as others have said, document everything with notes, times, dates, and photos. I hope you can find another job soon.

                5. Observer*

                  Keep complaining to facilities and put earplugs in when they throw tantrums.

                  Keep complaining in email to HR. Then start going up the chain IN EMAIL.

                  At that point, either a lawyer’s letter or something like the EEOC. Your employer may have deep pockets, but so does the EEOC. And if you can bring them enough information to look like a pattern they will be very interested.

              3. Arjay*

                I think letting them all throw their tantrums is the key. It’s not your problem to handle their emotions. I share a cube space with one person; we even have to share a two drawer vertical filing cabinet (in addition to have a single individual drawer that I can lock where I keep my personal things). If her stuff encroached on my area, I’d talk to her about it. If it continued, I’d move stuff back to her side. And if there was dirty trash, I’d dump it in the trash. If your neighbors have a problem with that, let them get stonewalled by HR instead of you.

                1. SignalLost*

                  But they’re not going to HR. They’re throwing actual, desk-punching, yelling tantrums in the cubicle they share. This is really dangerous advice.

            2. Jules the Third*

              Is there any rearranging of that room that can help mitigate this? Like, put you on an end, farthest from the one who annoys you most? (for me, loud guy, I can throw hoarder stuff in the trash)

              On hoarder: Since tape’s not allowed, maybe something less permanent but still too heavy to move easily – some letter trays, a pencil holder, spare keyboard? I know that eats into your space still, but at least they are (probably) not roach hotels.

              On the autistic guy: If you have Used Your Words, then he has no excuse and you are allowed to Return Awkward to Sender (see: Captain Awkward). These guys use scenes to get their way; you have permission to use a scene to set your boundaries.
              1 – quiet conversation where you explain he should not touch you and give him an alternative method to get your attention (ie, say your name or knock on his chair).
              2 – Folo with an email to him, with, ‘just want to be clear about our conversation, [repeat convo]
              3 – When he touches you, turn and very loudly say, ‘Don’t touch me!’
              4 – Folo with reasonable tone, ‘That’s exactly what I meant when we had that conversation last week. Don’t do it.’

              The loud guy – get as far away as you can, ask him to point speakers towards himself. Not much else you can do.

              1. Thursday Next*

                This is a really good script to use with your coworker who touches. I’d add, maybe you could put a sign on the back of your chair with a reminder to use your preferred method of getting your attention. A visual cue could help remind him, and it also gives you one more documentable step of what you’ve done to address the situation.

                Also: your managers are asses. ADA protections don’t work that way—someone with a disability can still be held to standards of appropriate behavior! What’s their excuse for not dealing with loud guy, or hoarder guy? Can you bring someone from facilities to the hoarder’s desk to show them containers of uneaten food (ugh)?

              2. You don't know me*

                In my fantasy revenge situation, I would scream, loudly, every time he surprised touched me. No scream like yelling at him for touching me, but scream like I’ve been startled.

                1. You don't know me*

                  I might have to “scream like a girl” every time I saw a roach too. They want to treat you like a delicate, hysterical female, then lean into the stereotype.

                2. AsItIs*

                  But women (in many societies) are taught to be “nice girls” and not to react to the appalling behavior of men.

                  The usual inner dialogue goes something like: “I would love to scream but I don’t want to make a scene or upset the toucher.”

                  I say scream. Not a long one, but a damn loud one, followed up with a loud “STOP TOUCHING ME!” Not a startled scream, because that’s the “nice girl” you’re been trained to be.

                  Also have HR explain to you (in writing) why a disability concession includes a male colleague being allowed to commit the unwanted touching of a female colleague.

            3. Yorick*

              Talk to facilities about the bug issue. They should be able to get him to at least throw food out.

            4. Rusty Shackelford*

              Okay, but it should be obvious that half of a shared desk is yours, so can you push his stuff over to his side? Or set up a physical barrier, like a row of binders or paper trays?

            5. The_Logical_One*

              Bring in items to place on your desk as barriers to the hoarder, and get a mirror so you can see who is coming up from behind you.

            6. Willow*

              We used to call those partitions. I hate open office plans. You cannot even pretend you have any privacy.

          4. Observer*

            TOTALLY off base.

            Yes, lock the drawer. But it’s nonsense that she needs to coach him like a toddler. Autism does NOT mean “incapable of understanding clear instructions and clearly stated boundaries.”

          5. Megpie71*

            There’s being on the autism spectrum, and then there’s just being plain rude. If your co-worker has been told, bluntly, that you do not want him to touch you, and you do not want him to touch the drawer where you keep your things (yes, you may need to get that blunt: name the behaviour explicitly, say it upsets you, and tell him to knock it off. Also, given the deafness consideration, give him this blunt instruction in writing); if you’ve offered alternative options such as knocking on the frame of the cubicle to get your attention, and/or leaving a note asking for a candy re-supply; then he is being deliberately rude, and it isn’t a consequence of his autism spectrum disorder. Document what you’ve done, document the steps you’ve taken to make things clear to him what it is you’re objecting to and why, and how you’ve attempted to convey this information, and hand that to HR. Being on the spectrum is not an excuse for being deliberately bad-mannered to people (inadvertently, yes; deliberately, no).

            (Speaking as a person who is firstly, on the spectrum herself, and secondly, hard of hearing.)

      3. MissDisplaced*

        I think it’s both. But when it comes to these HORRIBLE open office formats, management is intent on foisting them on unwilling employees who hate them and won’t budge. It sucks OP and you have my sympathies.

      1. Willow*

        Leaving for another company is absolutely justified when there are roaches. That is not something anyone should ever have to put up with at work.

    4. MissGirl*

      You don’t have a coworker problem; you’ve got a management problem. And it’s not going away.

      The fact that these guys still have a job, especially the temper guy who watches TV all day, speaks louder than any of them about the mismanagement. I hope you’re actively job hunting as that’s your only way to fix this.

    5. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

      Could this be a case where being the “squeaky wheel” is completely necessary and valid? I would document, document, document and take everything to my manager on a very regular basis. Make it so you can’t be ignored. All of the issues you listed are absolutely valid, so you should feel comfortable raising this with your manager again and again. In the meantime, I’m so sorry. This sounds terrible!!

      1. anon for this to be safe*

        Honestly, I’ve raised it so many times, but nothing happens. He just thinks I’m being hysterical and exaggerating, so I’ve almost given up.

        2. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          He just thinks I’m being hysterical and exaggerating

          This makes me so mad. I’ve seen such a small number of managers in my career who have taken any complaint from any woman seriously. If this were a guy coming to your manager with the same complaints, I have a feeling all issues would have been taken care of a long time ago.

          How can he accuse you of being hysterical and exaggerating, when anyone can see your coworker’s garbage covering your work area, and the roaches? Or you being habitually touched by the other coworker? Or hear the third coworker playing videos and music at full volume? You are not being hysterical, you are stating a fact.

            1. SoCalHR*

              I was in an office once where ginormous termites (I think) were falling on us sporadically during the day, the main manager clearly gave us the impression that we were being silly for not wanting to work with a drizzle of insects. So we picked a bunch up using tape and taped them on a sheet and brought them into her. I think it maybe at least made her make a call to the landlords, but I don’t recall getting sent home or moved for the rest of the day :-(

        4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          I say this supporting you and empathizing with you 100%. Stop being nice, stop raising the issue, you are going to have to fix this.

          Shove mr. dirty’s stuff on the floor and laugh at his tantrums.
          The next time mr. touchy touches you, respond with a sharp jab with your elbow and a loud ‘You startled me. Why are you touching me. I’ve told you not to touch me. What is wrong with you”
          Mr. Candy guy (not sure if he is also mr. touchy) when he whines or if you see him rooting around in your stuff.. “Dude, what is wrong with you get out of my desk and buy your own candy”

          Obviously your boss and HR don’t actually address problems, so you are safe from anything there.

          1. Thlayli*

            This is a very good point. You can do literally anything and you won’t get fired. If these guys are not being fired for their behaviour you are not going to be fired for responding in kind. If he puts crap on your desk, dump it back on his desk/chair/keyboard. When your coworker shouts, shout at him to shut up. When your coworker touches you, shout stop touching me. Etc

            1. Chameleon*

              “If these guys are not being fired for their behaviour you are not going to be fired for responding in kind.”

              Oh, how I wish, I wish, we lived in a world where this was true.

              1. SignalLost*

                Not only do I not believe this is true, I also believe the fact that OP works with three grown men who all have trouble (ha! so mild!) with physical boundaries means that she might get punched on her way to the meeting where she’s fired. I don’t think any recommendations of retaliation are a great idea here.

        6. Observer*

          Keep bringing it up – IN EMAIL. And PICTURES where valid. Including the roaches. Also, talk to the facilities people who come to clean up and get their names and put that in a log that you start keeping TODAY. Keep a log of every single time you get touched, either coworker throws a temper tantrum and calls you names, screams, slams things etc. Also, keep a log of each time you see roaches, and each time facilities needs to clean things up and what they say. On this log also note every time you have a problem with a conversation with an outsider or staff person either because of the interruptions or the noise.

      2. mark132*

        I’m not sure how much documentation will help. These are so very obvious, that they are basically self documenting. It should be sufficient to point out them out to get them rectified, or at least start the process.

        1. Leela*

          I would document them so you can contact a lawyer, honestly. They’re not intervening with someone putting their hands on your body? Going through your desk?

          1. Church Lady*

            This, this, this. All day. Everyday. Check your state’s laws on audio recording, one or two party consent, record. Check with your lawyer, omg, I hope you get so rich on the way out of your job.

    6. Cousin Itt*

      Could you argue for moving desks away from these people rather than working from home if that’s what your manager has a problem with?

      Also, how are these people getting away with loudly watching TV etc in an open plan office? Surely that would be disturbing others as well?

      1. anon for this to be safe*

        We just downsized to a smaller space so there’s absolutely no extra space available. The only other place is a conference room, but people get in trouble if they use one all day. The only other area that has open spaces is an area I don’t have badge access to.

        The TV watching happens with headphones, so it’s only loud enough that people in the direct area can hear and not everyone on the floor. But even if the volume wasn’t a problem, the visuals of the TV would be a problem. And, you know, it’s just rude to watch TV while everyone else is stressing out about deadlines.

        1. mark132*

          Seriously watching coworkers f*** off day after day all day long is a morale killer.

          1. anon for this to be safe*

            Yeah. We have several who do this. Another coworker is dealing with a similar issue. She and I get all the work the two dudes watching TV or disappearing for hours on end aren’t doing because they say they’re “overloaded”. Right.

            1. Lil Fidget*

              Any chance you can switch seats to work next to her … my coworker achieved the impossible (switching seats, which HR rules with an iron thumb I assume because they have few opportunities otherwise to really torture people in their daily lives) by making the case that for Work Reasons, she and a coworker needed to sit next to each other to collaborate on Important Project. Even though in real life she was just trying to get away from our office Eeyore.

            2. only acting normal*

              You have a mahoosive management problem with a generous side helping of blatant sexism. You need a new job yesterday.
              None of this is normal. *Repeat as required*

      3. Samiratou*

        Is there any chance you can switch with someone? Particularly a man? I hate to say it, but if your boss (and others) thinks you’re being hysterical, someone should be willing to “humor” you. You’ll be out of there and I bet the issues with the others get resolved when your sexist jerk of a boss hears about it from another dude.

        These people all suck. I hope you find something soon.

    7. Dame Judi Brunch*

      That sounds horrible! I’m sorry you have to deal with all that.
      Is management aware of the roaches? If yes, and they’re still not doing anything, that speaks volumes.
      I have no advice, I’m sorry. Just wanted to say I feel for you.

    8. DaniCalifornia*

      Ugh this sucks and it sounds like management is the root problem. Sounds like it’s time to start looking for another job if possible. I’d document things. I also wouldn’t hesitate to throw away the food containers. It’s one thing to be crowded by junk but roaches?!? No effing way. I don’t know how angry that guy gets but I’d be fine throwing them away as they pile up and telling him or your boss “I *refuse* to work in an area with moldy food containers that attract bugs.” It seems rude but to me it’s not. Let anything the angry guy says roll off your back. I got really good at ignoring unreasonable people yelling at me at a young age.

      Also, if you don’t keep candy in your drawer you can show the other cube mate there is no candy. I would still keep the drawer locked though. That or if you really didn’t want him going through it and are willing to be the bigger person you could ask him what his favorite candies are and maybe buy him his own personal dish. I’m sorry he keeps touching you. I know it isn’t fun.

      1. lulu*

        Agreed. Roaches? that’s where I draw the line. If you can just go to management and tell them this needs to be fixed now, it’s a matter of urgency. You cannot work under those conditions, and you need to make it clear to your manager. So far they’ve been able to dismiss your concerns by saying that they tried, but you need to be clear that it’s no longer enough.

      2. You don't know me*

        And if providing and storing candy is just a nice thing you do and not part of your actual job then I would stop that ASAP. It a small thing but it some thing you can actually control.

    9. Julia*

      I’m so sorry. That really, really sucks, and all your feelings are completely valid. (I would maybe refrain from saying your co-worker isn’t respecting your boundaries because he has autism. He has autism and is also a jerk.) Why are the loud guys not wearing headphones? Why can’t the one guy bring his own freaking candy?

      While he may in a protected class, so should victims of sexual harassment be – what does your HR say about that? Can they transfer your desk if you can’t change departments? Would the approach “my lawyer said his touching me is not protected” help?

      1. anon for this to be safe*

        I only brought up the autism because HR said that’s why he can’t be reprimanded for continuing to touch me and trying to go through my personal things. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have thought twice about it.

        1. Alternative Person*

          I think HR is off base on this one. IANAL or a Special Needs expert by any means, but going through your stuff and inappropriate touching are things that need to be stopped.

        2. Tardigrade*

          This isn’t appropriate for someone without autism to do, and it’s not appropriate for him to do either. I can appreciate that he might not be able to stop himself, but that doesn’t minimize the effect it has on you. So i would tell, not ask, HR what they are going to do about it. “I need a solution for Greg continuing to go through my things and touching me.” Same with the hoarder guy.

          1. Jules the Third*

            Yeah, ‘Help me find a solution for these problems’ is a pretty good script, with either HR or your manager.

            Touchy Guy’s autism is not an excuse for touching. Autistic people are totally able to understand boundaries, you just have to be very explicit, ie, ‘When you come to my desk, do not touch me. Please do [some other thing] to get my attention.’ In general, people with autism don’t get non-verbal cues or hints, but explicit instructions are universal with well-meaning people.

        3. Jadelyn*

          Yeah no, your HR is full of shit. You can’t discriminate against someone for being autistic, and like…you wouldn’t want to reprimand him for stimming, for example, if it’s not physically impacting those around him. But you absolutely can expect that he will meet the minimum standards of basic conduct in the office, such as STOP TOUCHING PEOPLE.

          Being autistic doesn’t make him incapable of following clearly stated directions and boundaries. He might not be able to sense where the boundaries are without help, the way most neurotypical people can, but once you tell him clearly and directly “Do not do this to me and my personal property” that absolutely can and should be understood and respected, regardless of his neurodivergence.

          Side note, I might just stop bringing candy for the open candy dishes entirely. Let that be someone else’s problem since supplying for it is causing you this problem.

          2. scorpysuit coryphefuss arterius*

            Agreed. Being autistic isn’t the issue here – the fact that he’s not respecting your boundaries is the issue, as well as HR’s bad response to this problem. Autistic people can understand and respect boundaries. Autistic people can a strong sense of their own and other people’s boundaries. To blame/excuse his neurology for his lack of respect is 1) letting him off the hook when he should be held accountable, and 2) perpetuates an idea that is harmful to autistic people in general.

        4. WellRed*

          If someone kept touching me, I think I would eventually stand up and yell, “STOP TOUCHING ME!STOP TOUCHING ME!STOP TOUCHING ME!”

          OF course, you may have already done this. At any rate, don’t let this drop. He DOES NOT HAVE the right to touch you because of his autism. Email HR and your boss (is boss’s boss an option??) with “formal complaint of physical harassment” in the subject line and ask for a meeting.
          Also, does facilities management know about the roaches? And, I would have no qualms about throwing his stuff out, though you shouldn’t have to.

          1. anon for this to be safe*

            HR won’t do anything. I’ve told him to stop and they said because of his autism and it’s not “sexual”, it shouldn’t be a complaint. Even though putting a hand on my lower back sure feels sexual and overly personal for the workplace.

            I’ve met a lawyer who said the first step is to tell HR that my lawyer will send a letter about harassment, but HR shrugged it off. There’s been quite a few harassment complaints that have gone ignored (the last woman to complain about sexual harassment was “laid off”).

            1. Thursday Next*

              They do not get to decide what constitutes inappropriate touching.

              Now I’m wondering, fellow commenters, is there anywhere OP can go to get clarification on sexual harassment/hostile workplace definitions that could apply to her situation?

              1. Thursday Next*

                Sorry—didn’t mean to nest here, but you answered my question! Glad you’ve consulted a lawyer.

              3. Mephyle*

                I’m not clear – did HR shrug off the idea that you might send a lawyer’s letter, or did they shrug off a lawyer’s letter that you had sent to them?
                Either way, if you sent a letter and they shrugged it off, the lawyer ought to be able to help you take the proper steps to make them take it more seriously, if that is a good path to take.

            4. Lizzy*

              Sounds like the next step is to have your lawyer send a letter about harassment. And find a new job.

              1. Specialk9*

                I had a rental company who put clearly illegal stuff in the lease. When it became a problem, I pushed back politely, pointed out the law they were breaking, and tried to find a solution. They didn’t care. I told them my next step would be to file against them. They didn’t care. I did the state’s legally required pre-notification of intent to file in small claims court… Suddenly DING DING DING! They cared!

                I realized that every single person they have a problem with threaten a lawsuit, but almost nobody actually does. So my threat, and knowledge of the law, was all smoke in their eyes. When I actually took action, THEN they had to take action, and they folded like a wet paper towel.

                So OP, your threat (that you didn’t follow up on) is smoke. The actual letter, or an actual claim, may cause a different effect.

                Just make sure you have everything documented, offsite, so you have proof. Forward everything to your personal email. Keep a log. Keep track of everything, preferably in duplicate.

                1. mark132*

                  This is a very good point. I would bet that the ratio of threats to file a lawsuit vs actual lawsuits filed is over 1000 to 1.

                  I haven’t actually made a threat like this in a long time because I know I’m not willing to file. My wife and I hired a lawyer once, and she basically told us, there was no point suing the charter school, so we switched schools.

            5. KellyK*

              If they’re shrugging it off because they’re fine with being sued and settling, can you follow through the process and actually sue them? And only settle for enough money to give you a good cushion while you job hunt? I’m not a lawyer and this is obviously not legal advice, but if their attitude is “Whatever, we can afford to settle,” then maybe that’s something you can pursue?

              At least backing up your comments with your lawyer friend sending the letter might be a good indication to them that you’re serious.

              1. essEss*

                According to the EEOC website, you have to file a claim through them before you can sue on your own.

            6. Jules the Third*

              ohhhh – ok, that’s IMPORTANT for us to know.

              Your management sucks, isn’t going to change, and will *retaliate* against you for complaining.

              Document EVERYTHING, including every discussion with manager and HR.
              – Pictures of the hoard
              – Times / dates of touching, being asked not to touch, talking to mgmt, everything, in a document that you store outside the company. Just because Touchy Guy has not *verbalized* sexual interest does not mean it’s not gender-based harassment. Does Touchy Guy touch the men in the dept to get their attention?
              – Bump up the job hunt, maybe even take a few vacation days to focus on it.
              – Try the ‘make a fuss with the offenders’ route I outlined above (ie, CLEAR, WRITTEN instructions to Touchy Guy on how to approach you, folo’d by yelling at him when he touches you)
              – Big trashbag, stay late / come in early one day to throw out Hoarder’s food stuff, and put a big ol’ trashcan on his side of the desk between you.
              – When they fuss, ask mgr for accommodation – wfh 2 – 3 days a week, or swap offices with mgr 1 day / week.

              I’d suggest taking it up the mgmt chain, but the last female complainer got ‘laid off’. This is not a company you want to work for.

            7. WellRed*

              Will any of them support you in this? If they have a pattern, it gets harder to ignore. Meanwhile, you’ve already taken the first step.

            8. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

              I would continue working with the lawyer, and also start looking for another job. This company is not long for this world.

              (the last woman to complain about sexual harassment was “laid off”).

              This business practice of theirs will end so badly for them someday soon.

            9. essEss*

              It is not HR’s decision whether or not it is sexual harassment. That is defined by EEOC and you can direct your complaints straight to them since HR has made it clear that they will not stop the harassment! EEOC will be very interested to learn that the company knew about the problem and told you that you had to let men touch you.

              1. Lehigh*

                Oh, and make sure the lawyer knows that the toucher is sexually harrassing not only you but other women at your workplace. IANAL but if this does go to court maybe they would like to be part of it.

            11. Observer*

              That’s classic retaliation. You could go back to your lawyer, but I’d start with the EEOC first – It’s free and they REALLY don’t like retaliation case. They will go after that even when the original complaint didn’t pan out or THEY didn’t do anything with it.

            12. only acting normal*

              Oh dear dog. RUN don’t walk from this job.

              Yes, yes it is sexual, because I will bet my salary he has never ever touched a man on their lower back.
              There are so many autistic fallacies your HR is indulging in it is causing this here autistic woman actual distress! Autistic people are sexual, they do understand boundaries, they can treated like adults.

              Between Mr Violently Angry, Mr Touchy-feely, and Mr Roachfarmer I fear for your health and safety.

        5. Scubacat*

          I work with people who have special needs. Both with clients and staff who have autism.

          Not being touched at work is very much a right that you have. It is reasonable for someone with autism not to touch you. Where I work, management/HR would totally put a support plan in place to address this. The HR department that you have is staffed with loons.

          Can you talk to Boundaries Bob about how touching you is unnaceptable? Some scripts that I’ve used at work have been….

          “It is not okay to touch my shoulder. Don’t do that.”

          “I need you to respect my personal space and not touch me.”

          “I did not give you permission to touch me. “

        6. nonymous*

          I sometimes work in an open cubicle like this, and a couple of us have mirrors to “watch our 6”. No inappropriate touching here, just some startle responses. Also, we have book cases and file cabinets to help define each person’s corner, so two people will share one side of the big cube and between them are actually two bookcases back-to-back with one side touching the desk. So the person on the left side has a bunch of shelves and so does the person on the right side, but the line of sight from one end to the other is blocked.

        7. Observer*

          Take this up the chain in HR. Either you’ll encounter someone with the competence to recognize that this is absolutely false and that you KNOW it’s false. Or you’ll develop the kind of documentation the the EEOC (and their state analogs) love.

      2. blue canary*

        Regarding the sexual harassment angle: would HR take note if you started discussing a hostile work environment, and were clear that you were documenting everything, including HR’s inaction? The violent responses to simple requests and the continued touching seem like they’d fall into that category.

        3. Jules the Third*

          See OP’s note above, the last woman who complained about harassment was ‘laid off’. OP should document for the lawsuit, but HR and mgmt are not going to help here.

    10. Wednesday*

      I’m so sorry your dealing with this. I don’t have any solid advice for you, since you seem to have taken every step you can with HR and your manager…the next step would be to look for new jobs. Really though, since you’ve done everything you can here – I wouldn’t be afraid to bite back when they bark at you. Here’s what I would do:

      For #1: Clearly define your space. Bring in some nice potted plants, fake or real and place them on the very edge of your area and his. Create a beautiful wall so you don’t have to look at his mess. If he pushes back, be firm but kind, and I’d act a little confused too: “(Horder), this is my area too. I’m just trying to make the best use of the space that (manager) gave us. Why are you mad that I’m using my own allotted space?”

      For #2: I’ve dealt with something similar with my friend. I love that guy, but sometimes he’s a real pain in the you know where. Since his main motivator is candy, maybe use that to help teach him what’s okay and what’s not. Keep candy in your area and let him know he’s okay to use it. Every time he touches you, take it away and lock it in your drawer. If he’s mad, say that’s how you feel when he touches you. Maybe it will help him understand just how much his casual touch offends.

      For #3: Do not be afraid of this bully. He’s a coward and acting like a child. So treat him like one. Remain impassive, and unmoved, and unafraid when he has an outburst. Roll your eyes, shake your head as if you can’t believe it. Keep telling him to be quiet. Keep letting him explode. Let this man dig is his own grave by reacting inappropriately to a polite request.

      Stay strong!

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I really like the “clearly define your space” suggestion.

        And when he touches you, loudly say:
        1st time – please don’t touch me
        2nd time – I’ve already ask you not to touch me
        3rd time – why are you touching me?

      2. Alternative Person*

        I think for #2 that’s a lot of free emotional labour on the part of the OP to keep locking/unlocking the candy and trying to train a co-worker who is treating her badly.

        1. Yorick*

          And I don’t know that much about autism but I think he may not get the link between touching and candy being locked away

          1. Wednesday*

            Maybe not. Maybe he’s just an asshole. I admit that its an extra step for the OP, and could even be interpreted as a punishment you’d give a child (which is not really appropriate in the workplace), but from my viewpoint they’ve already crossed so far beyond the line of what’s appropriate that OP either has to get out, or get creative. The candy dish is something the OP can control, its not something anyone can make her do. I’d get him to stop by using the one thing he responds to.

          2. Alternative Person*

            It really, really depends ( and not just on the form of autism, but how well people in the person’s life, particularly when they are young, help them to interact with the world around them as well as establishing and maintaining rules and boundaries).

            I had an autistic spectrum student a few years back whose thing was a Children’s Card Game. He had cards, he’d watched the series. The whole thing. He hated English class, wouldn’t cooperate, would complain, do as little as possible. Until, one day, I made him a deal. If he did his English class work, I would let him watch an episode of the cartoon (in English, he’d watched it in his native language), when we were done (and after the episode, he would have to answer questions about it). He never complained about English class again. He would do all his work, no problem and in fact did it really well when he applied himself because he knew if he got it done, he could watch something he liked (he also thought the voices in the English version were hysterical).

            (I’m not a trained Special Ed teacher by any means this is just my experience)

            1. only acting normal*

              This guy is not a little kid though. He’s an adult with an office job.
              I’m autistic and I work with *loads* of other autistic people (in a NT majority workplace); no-one behaves like this guy.
              Accommodations for an adult might involve: complex instructions being written down, sitting in a quieter seat, a one person at a time interview rather than a panel. Emphatically not “you get to ignore basic requests to not touch coworkers’ persons and belongings” (which frankly he does understand and is choosing to ignore, because he’s primarily a dick and the autism is his excuse).

              1. Willow*

                I had a co-worker for 3 years who I strongly suspect had Aspergers. He would occasionally touch me too, and when I told him I didn’t want to be touched, polite but bluntly, he would use the excuse that he “forgot.”

                This was the co-worker who also made countless errors, who I had to clean up after for 3 years because I don’t think he understood basic data entry. There was also the time when he was new and he would stand up over the partition wall and look down at me for minutes at a time without saying anything, even when I would ask him if he needed something. I had to go to the boss on that one because just asking him to please not do that because it made me uncomfortable angered him. Coworker would also repeatedly send me strange, random IMs that came out of the blue, some of which sounded like he was trying to control me and were huge red flags to me when I added them all up. I had to go to the boss on that too. They never did anything. I found out a few months ago that he had finally, after several years, gotten a job at another company.

                You should not have to put up with being touched against your will. That is harassment. You have told him repeatedly to stop. What he is doing and management repeatedly ignoring your requests for it to stop are illegal.

      3. CustServGirl*

        I’m sorry, but why is everyone acting like the autistic guy is a young child or puppy? OP shouldn’t have to use training mechanisms or multiple step plans to get her coworkers to behave like normal adults instead of a**holes.

        Op, I am so full of rage for you. Document everything you can, including the violent outbursts (audio or video, if it doesn’t break your state or local laws) and keep applying for new jobs. When an opportunity comes to get the heck out of there, very clearly state everything you’ve been put through. I would be tempted to sue, honestly. Your HR and management don’t care, so get justice. Eff politeness.

        1. Artemesia*

          What she should have to do and what might work are different things. She should not have to deal with this; management should manage. This isn’t happening (what with her just being a hysterical woman and all) so the question is what can SHE do. I don’t know if training this guy would work but it is something SHE can do. I don’t know if a legal action and complaint to EEOC would work, but it is something SHE can try. What should be is not happening here, just what is.

    11. oldbiddy*

      I am so sorry that management is doing nothing. I was once in a 4 person office where one person made me uncomfortable (loud, on phone all day for personal business, was a creeper who stared at me all the time, smelled bad). That’s just a tiny fraction of what you’re going through, and it was bad enough. I was able to move offices, fortunately.
      Could you double down on your request to move (i.e. if nothing is available, get a written commitment that they will move you to the next available cube if someone leaves) or trade with someone (preferably male) who doesn’t care about noise or mess?

    12. AnotherJill*

      For the hoarder, I would get a couple of big boxes, take photos of the area, and then put anything of his encroaching on your space into the boxes and leave them where ever is feasible. You can’t fight rudeness with niceness.

      I’d also just stop bringing in candy.

      1. anon for this to be safe*

        Yeah, I figured I’d stop with the candy. I didn’t replace the bag I finished today. Someone else can fill one of the candy dishes if they want. I was doing it for morale (it’s so bad), but I can’t anymore.

        1. Yorick*

          If you want to do it here and there, bring in a small amount and put it straight in the candy dish (so don’t keep any at your desk)

      2. Bagpuss*

        Put the boxes in HR!

        Seriously though, your management suck and are not going to change, so look for a new job, and in the meantime, document eveything.

        For Hoarder,
        Move everything back into his space. Send him an email (keep a copy!) saying something like “I need you to keep your stuff on your own desk. Moving forward, I will be returning your things to your work space if you leave them on my desk or work space.
        As there have been repeated issues with your food containers attracting roaches, and smelling, which creates and unhygienic and unacceptable work environment, please make sure that you remove or throw out any food related items or packaging every day. I will throw away any food-related waste, such as uneaten take out, left in the office for more than one day. Please make sure that you take home any food you want to keep”

        Then do it. put his stuff on his desk, or chair, or in the corner of the room. Bin anything mouldy/obviously rubbish.

        Same with inappropriate toucher. Send him an e-mail, cc’d to HR. Say that he is not to touch you at all, under any circumstances. Say that you will not tolerate physical or sexual harassment, such as non-consensual touching, and that for the avoidance of doubt, you consider any non-consensual touching to be sexual harassment and will report it both to HR and to the police as such if it continues.
        I would tell him verbally, once, that it is not OK to touch you, even if he doesn’t intend it to be sexual, and that there are no exceptions (or that the only exception is if you explicitly tell him it is OK) If his autism means he has trouble with understanding boundaries, then a clear, rigid rule should make life easier. If he is autistic but also a jerk, then it makes it harder for him to claim he did not know or understand.

        Same with the loud gut. Tell him his speakers are too loud and ask that he uses headphones / subtitles. Each time he has something on very loud, go over, ask him to turn it down or use headphones.

        MEanwhile, get legal advice about what you need to do, and follow through.

    13. Kc89*

      This thread kind of flummoxes me

      I feel like people are brushing off the awful co workers and just blaming management

      1. Jadelyn*

        It’s not that anyone’s brushing them off, so much as acknowledging that the buck stops with management. The coworkers are responsible for being awful in their various ways – especially Mr Tantrums, good lord – but in the end, in the workplace it’s management’s responsibility to step in and put feet down, on people’s faces if necessary, and define what is acceptable behavior and what is not, and then impose consequences for those who refuse to abide by it.

      2. Ann O'Nemity*

        The coworkers are terrible. The OP has tried to talk the coworkers directly, to no avail. The OP doesn’t have the authority to *make* them stop. So it’s management’s responsibility to intercede.

        1. Anonymosity*

          And management and HR are asses and won’t do anything, so leaving seems to be the only option here.

          1. Jules the Third*

            mgmt & HR are asses who have retaliated against another complainer by laying her off.

            Leaving is the only realistic option.

            BUT: You can Make A Scene to make the situation a little easier in the meantime.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Sincere question: What do you think OP should do then?

        For example, how do you get a coworker to stop screaming and being violent when the boss won’t do anything about it?

    14. LCL*

      Well, since management is going to do anything, you might have to push back yourself a little.
      For hoarder guy, IF the space boundaries are clear, pick up all of his stuff that is in your space and put it back in his. Under the desk, on the desk, on the chair, make it his problem. If you know who is responsible for the facilities and custodial work at your office, tell them that cubicle X is filled with food trash and you’ve seen vermin.

      2. Keep locking your desk. Let him fuss. You can’t do much about the volume of his electronics. You can tell management that you want touchy guy to stop, and you have told him, and you are going to start calling the law if he continues to touch you after you have told him to stop.

      3. Tell management what yeller does. When you do something that sets off yeller, so what? Let him yell. If he crosses the line into threatening you, yeah, call the law. What he is doing is a kind of intimidation, you are supposed to soothe his feelings. Don’t. Let him display his immaturity.

    15. Zennish*

      Yep, your management isn’t doing their job. Once coworkers have been told by the manager to knock it off, and don’t, then it’s an insubordination issue, and squarely in management’s court to deal with. I’d also be really tempted to ask my HR department if they weren’t going to deal with inappropriate touching and intimidation (which is exactly what angry coworker’s behavior is, imo), what on earth would they be willing to deal with?

    16. It happens*

      I agree with the comments above. While you are looking for a new job to get away from bad management, can you make _clickbait here_ one small change to improve your office? Can you switch places with tv guy? You’ll still hear him but you won’t be dealing with hoarder guy and touchy guy won’t be able to sneak up behind you. Not a solution, but perhaps an aid to sticking it out until you can leave.
      Ps – having autism is not a license to invade personal space AFTER being told not to. Your HR is wrong. If he understood consequences he could stop.

    17. Jennifer*

      I have no advice, just sympathy. I’ve asked to get moved 4 times by now and nope, nope, nope, nope.

    18. June*

      You are working in a very scary, possible life threatening situation (yelling over turning the volume down ?? slamming things?? punching desk??). I would talk to HR and your supervisor one last time and use the words “you are fearful for your life”. Because seriously this guy is out of control and you should be afraid. I am afraid for you.
      (I don’t know what your state’s laws say about video taping his violent outbursts but you might want to take that to HR/mgt as well).
      Can your doctor give you medical leave because of the depression or trauma caused by this horrible work situation? Maybe if HR/mgt sees that other professionals are involved and you are no longer carrying the workload, they will change the situation?
      If you have a laptop, move to a conference room or another location. When mgt asks why, tell you could not work with the bugs and noise.
      Honestly, if it was me, I would stop all of my work, focus on job hunting, and get the heck out of there.

        1. PizzaDog*

          Based on everything else in the comment? Yeah, I’d bet on major escalations from any of these three if she pushes back.

        2. Morning Glory*

          Yeah, that’s a great way for the LW to get labeled as dramatic or emotional, especially since this sounds like a male-dominated workplace(?).

          LW, the situation as you present it is untenable enough to stand on its own, and I think you’d have the best luck sticking to the problems currently happening when you go to someone, rather than speculating on what may happen.

        3. Yorick*

          I agree, it’s a stretch that this is life threatening. I mean, it might escalate to dangerous, because a coworker who punches the desk might punch a person.

          As dangerous as it could potentially be, I think the company would label OP as way out there if she said this were life threatening. I’d focus on impacts to your work or to general health and safety (I’m talking about complaining about bugs to the facility managers).

        4. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Dude, from my personal, real-life experience, it is a bad idea to keep one’s back to someone losing their $h!t. Maybe fewer than 5% of the tantrum throwers will actually do something dangerous, but, I don’t know in advance which one(s) it will be.

          If I had to work in this situation, I’d be so stressed, and I work in noise — drilling machines, pile drivers, generators, air compressors — but, people who lose their temper and start banging on things are not considered good colleagues.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yep, yep, yep.

            I am not sure if I would consider it life threatening because I do not see/know all that OP knows, but I would definitely consider it as realistic that I could get injured in this type of situation. Not saying to be paranoid OP, but use good judgement at all times.

            I thought we had moved away from the days where people were accused of being drama llamas for reporting anger issues and/or violent behavior, but apparently we have not.

            It’s not acceptable for cohorts to go into screaming rages at us and it is not acceptable for cohorts to pound desks/walls/whatever, nor is it acceptable to throw things. OP the fact that your management and HR do not understand these basic facts is quite disturbing.

            OP, I quit a job. I went to unemployment and told them about the working conditions. I saw people threaten each other, I saw fights, I saw people attempt to run other people down with their cars. I told unemployment this and I got my unemployment. It does happen. I did not fear for my life but it was reasonable to assume that I could become injured, maybe even seriously injured. Something to think about.

        5. Cedarthea*

          My sister ended up being checked out in an ER because of the stress of an aggressive and random supervisor. Her blood pressure was so high that she ended up with a “workplace injury” from trying to cope with a female boss who had serious outbursts and touched & grabbed her (arms mostly) when she was asked not to.

          Just because its not the violence you think of doesn’t mean you are so fearful it can impact your health.

      2. Anonymous Poster*

        Randomly videotaping coworkers is, in most companies, a one-way ticket to the door.

        This is not a life threatening situation. This is just an awful work environment situation.

        1. Jules the Third*

          It’s *probably* not a life threatening situation, but people who become workplace killers are usually well-known as problems because of behaviors like the ones OP is describing. The chance is low, but not zero.

          1. Anonymous Poster*

            Really? Someone blaring the TV is going to become a workplace killer? Or someone that keeps such a messy desk that they’re flooding into their neighbors’ area, and then gets grumpy that someone asks them to cut it out? Or someone that’s autistic?

            By that logic I should record every interaction with any coworker when I ask them why something is overdue. That’s ridiculous.

          2. Anonymous Poster*

            No, autistic or rude people do not become workplace killers. That’s not a valid argument.

            If I’m supposed to record conversations I have with coworkers because of a non-zero chance they’ll perpetrate some workplace violence, then I’d record everything. But we don’t do that.

            1. Anonymous Poster*

              blegh sometimes my comments get eaten and I retry. Sorry about that, looks like it was just in moderation or something. Didn’t mean to sound spun up.

      3. anon for this to be safe*

        I wouldn’t classify it as life-threatening. The loud, tantrum coworker has anger issues, but he’s never taken them out on a person beyond yelling so I don’t think it would escalate to anything physical. The hoarder looms and gets passive-aggressive, but I don’t think it’d be physical.

        It’s illegal in my area to tape without consent in such situations, and our company policy has a rule against recording/etc., so I’d be fired immediately.

        I’m also not going to bring it up as life-threatening because a few years back we DID have a situation that was life-threatening for a coworker, and not only does my situation pale in comparison, but I feel like it would label me as hysterical just like my boss claims. (In the other situation, a male coworker would hang around a female coworker’s desk area and follow/linger whenever she got up to go somewhere. He was following her home from work and after months of him doing it and HR saying it wasn’t an issue because it didn’t happen on work property, he forced his way into her apartment. Nothing happened beyond that, thankfully, but that’s what it took for HR to fire him, even after several complaints. I didn’t know about this until recently, though)

        1. anon for this to be safe*

          Basically, I work in a really awful place with a lot of men and the people in HR are very friendly with most of the department managers and don’t want to process stuff because it will ruin their relationships.

          2. PNWflowers*

            So what exactly are you looking for then? Everyone’s advice to you has been met with “no, that won’t work”. Are you just venting? If there are no possible fixes, which seems to be what you’re suggesting- then you need to learn to like it or quit. Those are your options. You can’t change your coworkers, you can’t make HR/management take this seriously, you can’t switch seats- so find a new job or learn to like your current job. I also think some therapy may be helpful for you.

            1. soupmonger*

              Yeah, that was my conclusion as well. You need to find another job. People here have been as helpful as they can be, but you’re countering all suggestions as ‘not do-able’. Time to leave.

            2. Church Lady*

              What? Just because OP is responding with “won’t work” as an acknowledgement of people’s responses, you want to tell her to STFU and job hunt? Way to revictimize the victim here.

    19. NewBoss2016*

      I would be so tempted to
      A) Throw everything away immediately that encroaches onto your deskspace. Bob’s tupperware? Trashcan. Bob’s TPS report? Trash. And play dumb about it.
      B) Shriek loudly in surprise anytime sneaky co-worker grabs you.
      C) Ask questions about everything the other loud co-worker is doing. Watching TV? Ask him about the plot and character progression or give him spoilers. Taking personal calls? Make sure to ask him to tell Aunt Ethel hi.

      No, don’t do any of these. I feel you though.

      3. Jules the Third*

        TBH, I would do A & B (especially B). C is too disruptive to OP’s work, I’d just stay as far away from the sound as possible.

    20. Jenny*

      It sounds like the solution here is to leave. Unfortunate but true — you are dealing with boundary violations that are being supported by those in power, and your attempts to protect your boundaries have been unsuccessful, and sucking it up is not working for you, so next step is to exit the system. Transform your anger and frustration into job-hunting energy. Good luck.

      1. GarlicMicrowaver*

        Regarding the autistic person, shame on your employer for failing to accommodate him reasonably and for putting everyone included in a terrible position. I would go to HR, leave the autism part out of it, and simply say you cannot have someone constantly touching you against your will and need to be moved.

        That aside, I had this setup at my previous job. They called it “dogbone style.” Imagine all desks interconnected in a cluster- one person sits at one end of the dogbone, and another at the other end. It’s horrible and I would take a cold and sterile cubicle any day. I can’t get ANYTHING done with people within 6 inches of me.

        1. Julia*

          I’m genuinely curious: What kind of reasonable accommodation would there be for this guy? He gets to touch a puppet? Someone from HR?

          1. Lehigh*

            I don’t know a lot about autism, but I’m pretty sure uncontrollably touching your coworkers is not a symptom. Sure, if she had hinted that she disliked it he could be expected to miss it. But he speaks English. He can understand and comply with, “Do not touch me.”

            1. Julia*

              That’s why I’m curious. The comment above mine says HR should accommodate him so this won’t happen, but I don’t see how his autism or any accommodations play a part here-

    21. PizzaDog*

      I hope you’re looking for something else – I’m sorry to be blunt, but the only person this is going to end badly for is you. Full speed to a burnout or worse.

      For the hoarder, let him be upset by this: push all of his crap back onto his desk. If you get there before him, take all of his garbage that made its way to your desk and pile it onto his desk. Did your parents ever do this? Mine did; when I made a mess that I didn’t clean, all of it ended up on my bed. Want to sleep? Either sleep on a pile of garbage or clean it. He can either work on his own pile of garbage or GTFO.

      From your other comments, HR isn’t taking your complaints about being touched!!! without permission. Get out get out get out.

    22. Anonymous Poster*

      What does them being male and you being female have to do with any of this?

      Focus on the behaviors that bother you. If management won’t manage you may need to find another job.

      1. Julia*

        I guess being a – presumably smaller – woman in a room with three hostile guys has something to do with it.

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          It’s irrelevant to the work environment problems and will cause a lot of sideways looks while complaining. It’s simply not worth pointing out.

          It is worth pointing out that you don’t really have a desk, you can’t concentrate because of the noise, and someone’s blaring the TV all day. But tossing in a, “Oh they’re also all male and I’m female” at the end would make management wonder if you’re going to try and file a sexual harassment complaint on top of it for good measure and get them on the defensive, instead of collaborating on a solution. So the question I suppose becomes, do you want them to fix these problems? Or do you want them to get defensive right off the bat?

          1. Frankie*

            It’s not at all irrelevant. The autistic guy touches her and other women without asking but not the other men.

            It’s also a bit obtuse (intentional?) to suggest that power doesn’t come into play when three men are being complete jerks to the lone woman in their little table quadrant from hell, being invasive, taking up her space and violating her boundaries, when that is absolutely a gendered thing that happens in work and larger society.

            1. OhBehave*

              OP – You have hit the trifecta of holy shit. I am sorry this is happening to you.
              Temper-tantrums by these “men”. Let’s remember that her manager accused her of being hysterical or something (I can’t find that comment to support). If OP was a man would the manager accuse him of being hysterical?

              OP – I would definitely continue to email HR and Facilities about everything as it happens. And BCC your personal email (don’t print them, then they can’t accuse you of theft). The only reason to document these instances is so you have a leg to stand on. I would even go back into your old email and find responses and send them to yourself as well. You know you can bring roaches home with you in your belongings, right? EWWW!

              I love the idea of adding something to the edge of your space to mark your territory. Something like an upright file holder, etc. This can give you some height in order to block the hoarder’s stash from sight. You absolutely deserve a workspace that’s all yours. You should not have to squish your workspace in order to accommodate a jerk like this. Start tossing his crap. Start with something small. You would be surprised how empowered you will feel! Keep a little garden trowel in your drawer to push his stuff back onto his space. Consider it a weapon against junk.

              It’s easy for us office-chair quarterbacks to advise to not take it but…. Do not allow yourself to be pushed around. Continue to ask lazy-bones, movie-watcher to lower his volume. Let him lose his temper and rail like an infant. Just shake your head and mutter.

              Continue to call out these oafs on their behavior. Autism is not an excuse. If he’s high-functioning enough to hold a full time job, he can understand he should not be touching you. I know many hf autistic people who can definitely follow simple instructions. He’s being a jerk.

              Look for a new job NOW. Take a good look at what you tell yourself (I deserve this treatment; I was just being hysterical. After all, it was just a bug. etc.). This is a trap being in a toxic work environment does to a person. It skews their views of normal behavior and sometimes, self-worth.
              Get out when you can. Work from home when you can. Work in the conference room for a few hours at least. This could go a long way to calming yourself while you work to leave. Keep your chin up and continue to comment here. There is hope!

        2. Jules the Third*

          Also, I’ll bet you $100 that Touchy Guy is not touching the other two coworkers.

          2. anon for this to be safe*

            He doesn’t. He touches my two other female coworkers. One is as upset as I am, but is too scared to complain. The other says it doesn’t bother her.

            He never touches the many men who also work in the department.

            2. scorpysuit coryphefuss arterius*

              Yeah that’s not autism. That’s entitlement. Wish your HR understood that. Sorry this is happening to you.

        3. Delphine*

          Also the response to her complaints (that she’s over-dramatic/hysterical) is gendered.

          1. Julia*

            Thank you for pointing that out, in all the awful things happening in that post, it slipped through the cracks, but you’re so right. Argh, sometimes I hate this society.

      2. Jenny Next*

        I don’t think any of them would be engaging in these behaviors if the OP were also male. A lot of this is dominance games — and the autistic guy almost certainly would not be touching. (Side question: Does he touch the men to get their attention?)

        OP: Yes, have your attorney send the letter. Make sure it contains the phrase “hostile working environment,” since a valid argument can be made that you’re on the receiving end of gender-based harassment, even if it isn’t specifically sexual harassment.

        Keep reporting the roaches, as often as you see them — make it the company’s problem.

        If you can talk to other women in the organization, it would be good to know if their complaints are being similarly ignored. It might help to have a group complaint filed.

        Document, document, document! This includes date, time, aggressor, and specific behavior.

        I don’t think you are at all responsible for training the autistic guy to not engage in jerky behaviors, and you’re not required to be nice to him. In fact, you need to drop the idea of being nice and/or appeasing altogether. These men are collectively trying to force you out of their space, and perhaps out of the company. Making yourself smaller and nicer is only going to encourage them.

        Who is above your boss and HR? Can you talk to that person?

        And yes, I do think you have to get out. And that sucks, because it means that they got away with it again.

      3. Specialk9*

        You’re joking, right? It doesn’t really need to be explained how hugely relevant it is that 3 men are bullying and terrorising and touching a woman, and the male manager and HR are calling her hysterical.

        Yeah gender is totally irrelevant. /S

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          Let’s say the poster was a man, and the coworkers stayed as 3 men also. Would gender be important in those interactions? What about if the poster was a man, and it were 3 women that were doing these things?

          The point is, you need to present these behaviors to management and say, “this needs to change.” You need desk space, you need the noise to stop so you can concentrate, you need people to stop touching and yelling at you, and you need the person blaring the TV to cut it out. If you throw in at the end during your complaint to management, “Oh they’re all men and I’m a woman”, you change the tone of the conversation away from a collaborative let’s-fix-this to a defensive sexual-harassment-lawsuit-incoming one. If that is what you want, then okay, but realize that’s how this will come off.

          1. Yorick*

            You’re right, if it were a different situation then a different issue might be at play.

          2. Julia*

            I kind of agree, but a) the reverse situation almost never happens and b) a lot of people don’t take female-on-male or female-on-female sexual harassment seriously, so saying “this guy is touching me” might be the best bet in normal situations. But apparently not here.

          3. Anon for this one*

            But the poster is not a man, so shut up with your strawman argument crap!!!

            1. Julia*

              I don’t think we tell posters on here to “shut up” usually, even if we disagree.

          4. Zennish*

            I always love the “but if the situation was different, it would be different” argument.

          5. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

            He touches the poster AND two other women. He does not touch any of the men. She complained to the management and was called hysterical. Last woman that complained about sexual harassment was let go. But the poster’s gender is irrelevant. Are you for real?

          6. Lehigh*

            The poster has specified that women’s complaints are routinely dismissed in this company, that touchy guy doesn’t touch other guys, and that it is a male-dominated company that is willing to pay out on gender discrimination rather than change anything about their toxic, sexist culture.

            So yeah, it’s relevant.

      4. WellRed*

        Well, the boss also accused her of being hysterical, which is fairly gendered language. If she’s just “hysterical” he doesn’t need to act. Plus, based on what has happened with other women in the company, it sounds like the company simply allows poor behavior, especially toward women.

      5. Mamaganoush*

        Really? A guy touching a woman when she’s repeatedly told him to stop, and touching her low on the back? The fact that he’s male is extremely pertinent.
        Guy screaming at a woman who asks him to please turn down the volume on his computer and he punches the desk? The fact that he’s male is extremely pertinent.
        Hoarder guy — this is the only one where his being male is not pertinent, legally speaking. However, the fact that all three of these turds are male and are not made to stop their outrageous behavior is probably no accident and speaks to the office and or corporate culture.
        I suggest you read The Gift of Fear, OP. (And I recommend it to everyone here who says that angry guy punching desks and screaming is not a risk.)
        Follow up with the lawyer. Send the letter. Document (and do NOT leave your documentation at work) everything. Dates, times, places, people, behaviors, what you saidand did, what they said and did (make sure you have a backup of all of it in a safe place. So if copy one is at home or on your home computer, make sure there’s say a paper copy st your mom’s house, or in a safe deposit box — you get the picture). The suggestion about email w cc to HR is a good one. Share everything with the lawyer. File an EEO complaint when the lawyer advises you have sufficient documentation. Sue these mf’rs.

    23. It's Friday!*

      You’re afraid at work due to the actions of coworkers, isn’t this the definition of a hostile work environment?

      Use that phrasing when talking to HR.. document everything.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        No, that is not the legal definition of hostile work environment. Hostile work environment is about a protected legal status and discrimination based on that.

    24. You don't know me*

      1) Push it back. You are entitled to the same amount of space as everyone else.
      2) Inappropriate touching is one the hardest things we had to tackle with my girlfriend’s autistic son. If was talking to you, he had to be touching you. If this person is in the workforce, this is something that should have been corrected long ago by his parents, teachers, therapists, etc. I’m sorry you are left to deal with it.
      3) I’d call him a donkey hole but I don’t think cursing is allowed here.

      I’m sorry you have to deal with this. It sounds like a nightmare. Especially considering two of these people could easily make small changes on their part so the environment could be better for all. Good luck on your job search. I hope you find something suitable soon!

    25. SpaceNovice*

      Wow, that’s horrible. You’ve literally got the trifecta of horrible cubemates! I agree with the assessment that HR won’t do anything instead of can’t do anything.
      1. Dude is gross and a health hazard. Ew.
      2a. No. Being autistic doesn’t make you a jerk. Being a jerk makes you a jerk. I have friends on the spectrum and they understand personal space boundaries as well as or better than neurotypical people. The fact that HR is using the same excuse parents who don’t enforce good behavior on kids with [insert disability here] because they have [insert disability here] is gross. That’s infantilizing him.
      2b. Also what does being deaf have to do with being a jerk.
      2c. Also gross is that HR told you about him being autistic. That’s confidential information. WTF.
      2d. There are things such as Bluetooth hearing aids that could solve the noise problem, but that might run into sensory issues (having something in/around your ear). And hearing aid usage is a private choice. But that’s still frustrating to deal with even if that might be considered a reasonable accommodation.
      3. This dude has a dangerous anger management problem; who cares about the rest of it. In a good office, he would have been let go the very first time he freaked out.

      I’m so glad you’re looking. Your HR department is horrible. So is your management. They’re both uninformed and lazy as heck.

    26. Jady*

      A few ideas, but these depend on how hard you’re willing to push or risk your job:

      Do you work on a laptop with nothing else? Bring in a small portable folding chair and table.
      Take it and go sit on the floor somewhere. Or outside your bosses office? Or hell, go in the conference room anyway. If someone gets mad about it, explain that your assigned space is unusable until [boss] resolves it, and you’ll not interrupt their meetings by just sitting there.

      Ask your boss for him to share his office with you when the space is unusable. You can use your new portable desk.

      Do you have a reception-like area? What about a break room? Put your portable desk in there.

      When someone is screaming or being dangerous, video (or audio at least) record them and send it to HR and your boss. If you’re willing, say you’re also sending it to your lawyer and asking about a hostile work environment. (Seriously isn’t this a hostile work environment?)

      If any of these guys have friends at work, go bug those guys and ask about trading spaces. (Seriously, do this.) Ask for forgiveness instead of permission.

      Anytime things get outrageous, barge into your boss’s office. Say something like “Due to [Bob’s screaming/The roaches crawling across my desk from John’s trash] I am unable to do my job. Would you prefer to set me up somewhere else, or for me to work remotely for the rest of today?” Make sure you phrase this as “obviously we have to do A or have to do B as the status quo is currently absurd.”

      Take pictures of the garbage desk and notify the owners of the building/custodians. They aren’t going to like roach infestations. If you can get pictures of the roaches that would definitely be a bonus.

      1. MsAlex*

        Or leave Mr. “You’re Hysterical” a few of those roaches when he opens his desk drawer. NOW who is hysterical??
        (Okay, you probably shouldn’t do this, but it would be funny.)

    27. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      You’re in a really awful situation and management/HR has made it clear that they are not going to do their jobs. The only thing actionable you can do at this point is search for a new job. I sincerely wish you the best in that!

      In the meantime – the only thing I can offer is – give yourself permission to not care about your awful co-worker’s reactions to your completely reasonable behavior. Obviously I would never do something (optional) that I know what upset someone (purposfully), but these co-workers are not being reasonable participants in all of society’s unwritten rules. Come in early and move all the hoarders stuff, then ignore him. If he asks you if you touched it, lie to his face and say no and then completely ignore his ranting (well give the appearance of ignoring him – just stare at your screen and mess with your email). If the candy fiend starts questioning you incessantly just flat out ignore him. In normal circumstances that would be rude, but these circumstances and the behavior of these co-workers is so far outside the realm of reason that they don’t deserve the same level of courtesy/reactions that everyone else does. Do be polite/responsive to anything work related, but use a different standard when it comes to interacting with them about anything non-specifically work related.

      Don’t be malicious or cruel. In general, try to hold your head high and be the bigger person. But do give yourself permission to be “ruder” (in a passive way) to them than you would be to just about anyone else.

    28. JessicaTate*

      I’m so sorry. I would be a mess in your shoes. Looking for your path out is super-smart. Take care of you. In the meantime, the only ideas I have adding to what others suggested:

      1) Do you have a laptop (or could you request one as an accommodation for this horrid work environment)? I’d be reserving conference room space, or making a desk for myself in reception, or in the lunchroom, whatever I had to do to be “in the office” but not at my desk. Leave a note on your chair that says, “If you’re looking for Jane, she’s working in Conference Room A until 2:00. Come on by.”

      2) I’m a very high-strung person, and when I’m startled (like someone touching me when I wouldn’t expect it!!!) I often involuntarily scream. You say it scares you when he touches you. Let the stress coursing through your body do something positive for once – let loose the short, high-pitched, fear shriek every time he does it. Make the rest of the open office become party to the horror of this space. If questioned, “It’s an involuntary reaction to being startled. I’ve asked him to stop, but he doesn’t. And I can’t stop that this is how my reflexes respond to being touched when I shouldn’t be.”

      3) Find a lawyer. I am NOT a lawyer, but I cannot see how on earth all of this is legal (especially the touching!). In my experience, just having a lawyer verify that what’s being done is super-illegal, and then letting the employer know that you “have a lawyer” even if you haven’t retained the services officially suddenly greases some wheels. What I did was ask a buddy of mine who was a lawyer (but not an employment lawyer) if he had any colleagues / law school friends who were in employment law. He gave me a few names, I reached out to them as a “a friend of Bob’s”, and had a 20-minute call with one. He verified that what was being done was illegal, what the steps would be to pursue it legally, what the risks and benefits were to pursuing. Before retaining his services officially, I sent one more letter to the employer laying out what I had learned from “my lawyer” and that I was preparing to pursue X and Y steps if the illegal behavior wasn’t resolved. We came to an arrangement within a day or two. I sent a thank you note to the lawyer for his advice and that it had been resolved. It was a scary leap to make, but it was AMAZING how quickly they responded.

      Good luck.

      1. JessicaTate*

        Just saw your comment above that your company already shrugs off lawyers. I missed it on first read. I guess that advice doesn’t apply. (Sorry.) Have you thought about trying to get a settlement out of them and at least get some cash to buy time to find something else?

        I hope you find a way out soon. That is horrid.

    29. Good, Cheap, or Soon. Pick Two.*

      Wow, that is one inept HR department… Okay, honestly, I think you’re best solution is a great resume and looking for a new job. Honestly, if the company is this bad at handling a problem that could go pear shaped, you’re going to be better off with a different company. That being said, I can only think of a few solutions for the time that you remain stuck with Larry, Mo, and Curly.

      Currently, your boss and HR have essentially passed the buck by saying that the accommodations and other solutions are to let the little woman suck it up. That doesn’t work for you. Your boss and HR are also counting on the fact that you’ll quietly handle this because you don’t want to disrupt the workplace. Don’t. Continue to remove the trash from your desk. Continue to ask if the he can turn down the volume. If they get angry or try to intimidate you, pick up your phone and call both your boss and HR. Then fire up that computer and document everything. Yes, this is scary as H-E-double hockey sticks but it serves a purpose. It makes these two their problem. They have to face the problem children. As for your coworker with autism, return to HR and look whoever told you that they can’t do anything dead in the eyes. Tell him the ADA requires a workplace to make reasonable accommodations and allowing him to continue groping you is not reasonable. So, he can get his shiny little butt in gear and find a solution. If he tries to weasel out of it, tell the little ferret that people with disabilities aren’t the only population who the federal government has seen fit to offer protections to in the workplace.

    30. Roja*

      That sounds 100% miserable and I’m so sorry. I don’t have any good advice to give, but just this overwhelming thought–HOW do any of the men get work done? How are they all still employed? Watching concerts is hardly conducive to focusing on work!

    31. Salamander*

      This is a tough situation. I’ve been in a similar one before, and it does suck.

      -As others have said, start looking for another job. It’s hard to do when so much of your energy is wrapped up in your current workplace, but searching can give a sense of power. Contact a recruiter if you need to, but really focus on getting the hell out.
      -Consult with your attorney to see if there’s anything that can be done. You may be on the way out, but you may as well get paid for the aggravation.
      -I think someone upthread mentioned bringing in plants. This is a good way to take control of your environment. Bring in a heavy planter and put it on your side where the messy guy’s stuff is leaking over. Every time anything gets on your side, push it back. Whenever you see a roach, call facilities management. Keep calling them. If you have a friend in the same area, if they see roaches, they should call too. Eventually, a squeaky wheel from the facilities department may be able to cause some minor change. You might also consider bringing in a roach trap and throwing it under your desk for your own peace of mind.
      -As for the smell, I would have no issue with bringing in a properly-diluted essential oil or something that you like and dab it on your upper lip as needed. These people are giving you no consideration, and I don’t think you need to be too worried about offending them with something to mask the smell of rotten mayo.
      -Again, with taking control of your environment. Get yourself some very nice noise cancelling headphones and listen to music you like during the day. Put a poster up on your cubicle wall of something beautiful and restful. Bring in a lamp with soft lighting if that’s relaxing to you.
      -Take your lunch away from your desk. Get outside or away from people if you can. Walk around, take a deep breath, and read a book…whatever gives you a lift.
      -Stop bringing the candy in. Keep your file drawers locked. You are under no obligation to let that guy rummage through your things. If he complains about no candy, look at him and suggest that he bring some in.
      -For the touching, it’s an insidious thing, because you’re probably sitting there with your shoulders hunched around your ears in anticipation of the next invasion. When he does it, say loudly, sharply, and firmly “No!” Swing turn around in your chair and stare at him. You can be hostile. You don’t need to take this. Nobody’s going to make him stop, but it doesn’t sound like anybody’s going to penalize you for pushing back, either.
      -Practice good self care. Don’t work any voluntary overtime. Set up things to look forward to when you get home, hobbies and activities you enjoy. Set up a ritual that allows you to mentally shed work when you get in the door. For me, it was taking off my work clothes and getting a bath or shower. Otherwise, I’d be ruminating about work all night long. Get a massage. Take walks in the evenings. Get some books from the library that you’ve been meaning to read. Buy some comfy shoes. Treat yourself.

      OP, I don’t think there’s a way that you’ll win here in such a dysfunctional culture, and I strongly suggest moving on asap. But hopefully there are some small ideas here that will help things be a little more bearable until you get something better.

      1. Aardvark*

        +1000000 THIS.

        I love the suggestions for taking control of the things that you *can* control rather than responding to constant boundary transgressions. It’s not fair to ask you to try to change them by responding to them…either by accommodation or by aggression. They are clearly unreasonable people and you’ve tried more than is reasonable to fix the situation *with them*. It’s time to fix the situation *for you*.

      2. Thursday Next*

        This covers so much ground. What a thoughtful response, hopefully one that OP can really work with.

    32. Nacho*

      It sounds like you need to be more assertive with all three of them.
      Problem one: Make a clear distinction between your desk and his, tell him his stiff isn’t allowed past that, and then push it back onto his desk. If he doesn’t stop, escalate to throwing it away. If he gets angry, that’s his business.
      Problem two: Already solved. Lock your file cabinet and keep it locked. If he makes a fuss, that’s his business. If he touches you, brush him away. If he keeps touching you, brush him away more aggressively and tell him to stop. Don’t ask, don’t say please, just “stop touching me.” in a raised voice.
      Problem three: Keep telling him to be quiet. Management won’t step in if all he’s doing is being mildly annoying to one coworker, but if he’s smashing company property, they’ll take notice.

      1. anon for this to be safe*

        I have told #2 SO MANY times “stop touching me” / “don’t touch me” in a loud voice while jerking away. I don’t know how much more assertive I can be.

        1. Saucy Minx*

          Get an air horn.

          If your manager shows up, tell him it’s your emergency signal.

          (If only this would work …)

        3. mark132*

          I’m sure you’ve thought about this, touching you without permission is assault, have you considered filing a police report for assault? It is a nuclear option but that may be all that is left.

        4. MsAlex*

          Others may have better advice on how far you can go but I think you’re okay with some return physical contact – pushing him away, forcibly removing his hand from you, that kind of thing. This might not be a good suggestion, but I would probably end up slapping his hand away.

          For Mr. Angry, let him rant. Nothing drives people like that crazier than when they’re trying to scare you by screaming at you and you just don’t react – no expression, calm voice, etc. (I worked with a guy like that. Eventually he got fired but before that I actually earned a measure of respect from him, weirdly.)

    33. Mimmy*

      Wow. This type of environment would be untenable for me. I’m twitching just thinking about it, especially the angry guy. That behavior alone probably rises to “hostile work environment”.

      Your HR department does not understand the ADA. I’m no expert, but I’m pretty sure that it doesn’t give workers with disabilities a pass on inappropriate behavior. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is a common practice used by HR departments out of fear of being sued if they were to reprimand or even fire an employee with autism or similar disability for inappropriate behavior.

      Good luck and please keep us posted.

      1. Someone else*

        What’s odd is they seem to have a fear of being sued by the autistic gentleman, since they claim they won’t tell him to stop touching her because he’s autistic, but they do not have a fear of being sued by OP. It’s curious, and a really bad sign, that they seem not to give a shit about sexual harassment lawsuits, but for some reason fear ADA lawsuits (in a case where one wouldn’t even be valid).

        1. Lehigh*

          I’m going to guess it’s because they believe that women should always be willing to suffer to accommodate men, and x10 if the man has any kind of special need.

          I normally wouldn’t jump to that, but given they way they apparently have always treated other women at this company…

          Yeah.

    34. UtOh!*

      Hi OP, I think it’s time that you push back. Completely throw out all the garbage, scream at the guy touching you, and wear earplugs the rest of the time. You have got to get more of a backbone if you want to stay sane in the environment you have described. You do have choices, you just need to make them.

      The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results. The results from going to HR and Management have not changed, so try something else.

    35. UtOh!*

      Okay OP, we want to hear back next Friday what you’ve done to change even one thing about your situation, you’ve been given GREAT advice here…use it!

      1. Julia*

        I don’t think it’s fair to put this kind of pressure on OP. We’re not in her situation, she needs this job (I assume), and “use this great advice, spineless woman” (I’m referring to your comment above this as well, where you say she needs to grow a backbone) is just unnecessarily harda** when she’s already suffering.

        She KNOWS this situation doesn’t work for her. She HAS told the guy to stop touching her. But she’s in a room with three guys you yell at her and who get violent at things, and I’d be pretty scared. Sure, I’m also pretty feisty when I have to be, and probably would have yelled at one of those guys in isolation, but there’s three of them. THREE. And one has already shown that he doesn’t understand the word “no”.

        OP, I’m so sorry. I think Salamander has some great suggestions for immediate reactions and self-care. I know it’s hard because you’re exhausted and overwhelmed, but please try to find a way out before you get too hurt to even try to make a change. Best of luck to you.

        1. UtOh!*

          I just hope, perhaps through reading these responses, she can realize that she’s not powerless to make a change, there are options. Even if it’s to take vacation to clear her head and start making an exit strategy. I too am sorry she’s experiencing this situation, it’s demoralizing and depressing. Even if it’s changing just one thing about how she is handling the situation, that may lead to other changes and a direction out of the situation.

    36. Frankie*

      I don’t want to dismissively say “time for another job” but based on this and all your follow-up comments, it seems to me that there’s limited things you’ll be able to do to improve your work situation. I would focus your energy on taking care of yourself outside work to protect your sanity, and searching for other jobs. You deserve to work in a better place than this one and they’ve shown that they won’t take action on these very serious things (roaches…unwanted touching…”you’re hysterical”…shudder).

    37. Observer*

      I haven’t read all of the replies but one thing jumps out at me. Ignore the fact that #2 is autistic. It’s totally not relevant to the situation. This is important because you need to go to HR and make a formal complaint IN WRITING about sexual harassment. Use those words. Then explain that #2 is touching you even though you have explicitly asked him to stop doing this. If your HR is at all competent they will know that he is NOT protected from repercussions from sexual harassment. Keep escalating up the chain. The front line hr person may just be trying to avoid dealing with unpleasantness, but at the top someone should realize that this is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Oh, and get everything in writing / email.

      (Keep in mind that people who are autistic are perfectly capable of respecting boundaries and of NOT touching people once they have been clearly told not to do so.)

      Oh, and stop asking Hoarder to throw stuff out. Just keep on moving his stuff back to his side of the desk. If it winds up on the floor, too bad.

    38. only acting normal*

      My comments seem to have been eaten, so in summary:
      – your management suck
      – your management are sexist
      – autism is 100% *not* a reason or excuse for that
      – you need to leave this workplace it is toxic as f#€*

    39. Fact & Fiction*

      I am really late to the party but I just had to chime in because WOW. I was having almost this exact conversation with a friend yesterday explaining why I had to leave a particular gaming community in part because of their continued enabling of an autistic man’s repeated, unwanted, gender-based harassment of female gamers. ONLY the female gamers. Did I mention repeated?

      Several of us told him multiple times exactly what he did that made us uncomfortable. He would agree to stop. Literally 5 minutes later he would be doing it again. Of course other guys tried to stick up for him and blame it on the autism but DUDE.
      Plenty of autistic people learn and respect other people’s boundaries. One can be BOTH autistic and an asshole or sexual harasser.

      We finally complained to community leaders, who acted sympathetic but would lightly slap him on the wrist. He’d prove he COULD respect the boundaries when all eyes were on him and then BAM. He’d be stalking us again in voice chat and game. We’d block him and mute him, only to have him viewing our games by joining on the guys he knew we’d be playing with. The community hosted large group gaming sessions and then say they couldn’t exclude him so we would just have to keep him muted and deal with it. Muting one out of a handful of people on your team is a big handicap and YES – they would make us randomly be on his team sometimes if we wanted to participate because they randomized team to try to be more fair and they would switch every couple games.

      Then factor in all the peer pressure from every person – almost all males who didn’t have to put up with the BS – to just “be nice” and let him play with us.

      Eff that crap. That was doing him no favors if he truly WERE clueless (which I do NOT believe) and enabling a predatory harasser if he weren’t so innocent. Plus putting the onus of “bring nice” and not “rocking the boat” on the victims. All women, of course.

      One of the reasons I left that community. And as I was explaining it in more detail to my friend yesterday (he works with special needs students), he was appalled. So I felt validated, which can help you realize you weren’t the inappropriate one. I hope you find a better work environment soon. I just wanted to let you know you aren’t alone.

  3. Mathilde*

    Hello Alison,

    Since reading this blog, I have been introduced to the notion of “capital” to spend in a workplace. I find it both really helpful – well, illuminatory, actually – and confusing.
    Although I understand the theory of it (having to build it in order to spend it, having to “choose your battles” in order to spend it only when it is worth it, etc…), I have some trouble applying it into practice.
    Some extreme examples are fine : if you have been an intern for a week, you don’t go ask the CEO to change workplaces pratices ; if you have been an respected employee for a decade, you probably have the capital to advocate for new chairs / massages at noon / telecommuting / not going to the Christmas party etc…
    But apart from these really obvious examples… I am stuck. When do you now you have enough capital ? When do you know you have spent it all ? How can you build it again ? Maybe I am pushing the metaphor too far… but I am wondering.

    Could someone elaborate on this notion ? And maybe the commenters also have some tangible examples when they used capital (wisely, too much…) and how they went about doing it ? That would be really helpful !

    1. Snubble*

      It’s the workplace equivalent of asking for favours. So it’s hard to quantify, but when you have a sense that someone is indebted to you, or you know they respect you enough to do you a favour, you’ve got workplace capital. You have more if people know that your work is solid and you don’t make unreasonable requests – the social equivalent is if people know that you always show up on time and pay for your share, they’re more likely to reschedule around your sister’s wedding.
      Of course just like with social favours, you can’t ever really be sure that you have enough workplace capital to get what you want until you try it. But that’s what it is, really. It’s the intangible social part of working with people, and how much they are inclined to help you out.

    2. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

      I am really good at rolling with the punches and not making a fuss when normal annoyances occur at the office. Over the years I have built a reputation of working hard and going with the flow. So, if I speak up about something being a problem I am very likely to get the response I am looking for. I don’t complain about much, so when I do it is something serious. That’s how I think of my capital.

      2. Specialk9*

        Yeah, it’s also a matter of choosing battles — not speaking up about everything, and going with the flow for most stuff, only going to bat on important things — as well as helping other people with their things.

    3. Seriously?*

      I think it comes down to people’s perception of you. Are you constantly asking for things to change to suit you better or are you adaptable and helpful. If you are seen as generally helpful and reasonable then it will carry more weight when you ask for something or say you can’t do something. Maybe think of it less as building up “capital” and more as building up good-will.

    4. Anna Canuck*

      It’s the sort of thing you already do apply to other elements of your life. Who would you ask for a favor like moving or babysitting? Who in your life asks you to do such things? It’s not a strict rule, it’s about feeling like the people you ask of things are people that you will help when asked. People that you’ve ALREADY helped are more likely to help you. I would say I build “capital” in the simple ways – I try to respond to coworkers quickly when I can, I listen to stories, I take on some “extra” social organizing of small events like lunch or post-work drinks that is beyond my official role. I try to demonstrate my competence and remain open to being corrected. In return, I can suggest technical things to my boss and up from there, ask questions, be a bit sarcastic (alas, it is my nature), etc.
      In my workplace, the things that build capital are simple: bring in a treat to share once in a while, answer your emails/phone calls fairly promptly, show up to some of the social events (they’re only monthly or so), be nice to the admins so they do things when you need them.

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      Capital is all about reputation and favors. You get capital by having a good reputation and by being willing to help people. You lose capital when you tell reasonable people “Not my job”.

      You know you have capital when you know you can call up people that don’t report to you and they pick up the phone, listen, and help you. You know you’ve spent it all when people are suddenly too busy to help you but will help other colleagues and coworkers.

      Also, I want to point out that if you only ever help others and never ask for help or favors, you’ll likely be seen as a doormat. A good rule of thumb is that it is OK to ask for things that you would do in turn if the roles were reversed.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      To add to what others have said: Thinking of it as “favors” captures part of it but not all of it. There’s a big part of it that’s more about influence — where you have standing to lend your voice and opinions and be taken seriously/have influence.

      I talk about this a bit in my new book, so I’ll quote from there: “Everyone at work has a certain amount of social and professional capital to spend. How much you have is based on how long you’ve worked at your company, how senior your position is, how well you get along with people, how much your work is valued, how much your boss likes you personally, and how accommodating you’ve been to others. If you’re low on accumulated capital, you might not be well-positioned to speak up about something difficult or sensitive. (There are exceptions to this rule when it comes to things that are very serious. For example, you should always speak up about things like sexual harassment or unsafe working conditions.)”

    7. lulu*

      how much does your boss respect you, value your work, and takes what you say seriously? that’s capital.

    8. msmorlowe*

      It’s really difficult to quantify! It’s probably better to imagine it as a jenga tower rather than an exchange system like money. With a jenga tower, you know that as a newbie (either to the game or to the office), you’re better off picking blocks off the top (easy favours in this metaphor)–more experienced players can take blocks from near the base of the tower. If you are very respected, or have really supportive management, you can see that as sticks propping the tower up and keeping it standing, giving you a little more leeway.

    9. Emma*

      A colleague and I talked about this. We’ve both been in our positions long enough where we’re not trying to prove ourselves (think 5+ years). We’ve each had recent medical issues, and we remarked how nice it is to have built up a reputation (capital, if you will), so if we’re not in tip top shape at work right now, it’s not as noticed as it would be when we were just starting our jobs.
      Neither of us are trying to abuse it, but we’re just acknowledging that it’s easier for us to have these medical issues now than it would have been 4 years ago.

    10. AliceW*

      You build capital over time but it isn’t based on years worked, but rather on the your quality of work, your relationships with the boss/higher-ups and their level of respect for you and your work. You must know your worth in order to “spend your capital”. For instance, an employee who never complains, always gets the job done, works well independently and is highly valued or even indispensable to me can ask for and be granted many accommodations that other employees may not (e.g. they can work from home multiple days a week, they can get more flexible hours, drop a project they don’t like working on etc.). You don’t necessarily have to re-build capital once you have it, you just have to prioritize your requests and make sure they are reasonable and present them as both a benefit to you and your company.

    11. Justme, The OG*

      I used some capitol earlier this week when talking to my boss about ordering shirts with our logo on them. She wants a button-down dress shirt, and thinks we should all get the same. I brought this to coworkers who hate the idea of that style of shirt. Since I have worked for her the longest I brought up our concerns. She was very receptive, and since I have worked for her for multiple years I better knew how to phrase the request. So the rest of us can order something else.

    12. dear liza dear liza*

      Anyone else think of the Parks and Recreation episode in which Ben has to ask the chief of police to donate time to the Harvest Festival and fears doing so because they just asked him to do something really big? And the Chief of Police doesn’t blink before agreeing to help the Harvest Festival because it’s for Leslie, and she is “the kind of person who uses those favors to help people.”

      So yes, it goes beyond favors. It’s about building a reputation so that you can step outside your ‘written in your position description’ duties and get things done.

    13. oldbiddy*

      In general, being helpful, not taking advantage of people, and not sweating the small stuff goes a long way for expending political capital both ‘up’ and ‘down’. An unless you’re the CEO or the newest intern, you’ll be continually giving and receiving help from people at all levels.
      We have two wonderful facilities managers here. They’d do a great job regardless of how I acted, but I try to be helpful by giving them advance notice of anything coming down the pipeline, not going overboard with minor requests, etc. As a result, if I have something come up unexpectedly, or need something really out of the ordinary, I get a lot more leeway from them than I did when I first started working here.
      Likewise, my boss is very generous and sometimes will ask me out of the blue if I need a new computer/office chair/printer/etc or if I want him to pull some strings to let me get a better parking pass. If those things don’t matter to me that much, I’ll pass, but I know I can go to him with requests on the things that do matter more to me.

    14. periwinkle*

      To add a little to Alison’s wisdom about influence –

      There’s a critical role in my organization – the people who manage huge, complex projects. They’re accountable and responsible for the success of the project, but lack managerial authority over the people contributing to the project. I’ve been working with that function to revise their professional development approach, and one of the most critical competencies required to be successful is the ability to manage by influence.

      To manage people when you have no managerial authority over them, you need to quickly build and judiciously deploy your capital. You build it through building relationships – be honest and transparent, actively listen to people, acknowledge issues, celebrate successes, don’t point fingers over failures, don’t pretend to know more than you do (and especially not more than the subject matter experts), and otherwise behave collaboratively. Then, when you need to press for deliverables to mitigate a schedule slide or raise concerns about a team’s quality issues, you draw on that capital of established respect and credibility.

      Theoretically, you should never use up all your capital if you continue to behave in ways which sustain your capital. You should be a fountain, not a bucket.

    15. Little Bean*

      It is really hard to know exactly how much you have. I think of it as sort of a balance beam or scale, where the balance on one side is positive things that make people want to keep you in your job and the other side is things that might make you a tiny bit more difficult to work with. You obviously always want to keep the balance on the good side. But once the good side is really heavily built up, you can start using up little bits of it to ask for things you need. For example, I really wanted to start working from home one day a week. I knew I couldn’t ask for this my first week on the job, because I hadn’t built anything on the good side of my balance yet. I waited about six months, trying to do my job really well the whole time, so that I could build up enough “capital” to ask.

    16. Salamander*

      The way that I’ve built up capital in my work involves several things. I complete my work on my own, correctly, on time, and in such a way that it doesn’t cause problems for anyone else. If I can help someone out on their projects, I do so. I also don’t make it a habit of asking for things from others. If there is something that I can accomplish on my own, I always do so. There’s always that *one person* who is always asking for others to do things for his/her convenience…don’t be that person. If you’re not always asking, and you help others out when you can over time, then you have better standing to ask for something you want. I save up the capital for things that are important to me…and things that are realistically solvable in correct timing. Like an office door in an empty doorway, asked for at a time when facilities management was doing other work in the area.

      Also, the people who can accomplish things for you may not be the people you think. Building good relationships with exec assistants has done more to help me than face-time with their bosses. I got a parking spot, unasked-for, by maintaining a good relationship with my boss’s EA. She saw me walking to work in the rain.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      “When do you now you have enough capital ? When do you know you have spent it all ? How can you build it again?”

      It’s very practical to assume that you will never have enough capital. As a parallel think about writing a financial budget for your personal life. You don’t spend everything you make if you don’t have to, right? You put some money aside for emergencies or for doing something special. Likewise with work capital, the longer you stay at a place the more things change. You never know in the future when something might come up where you need might need help or special consideration for a very strong reason. You never spend all your capital, you always keep some.

      You know when you have spent it all because people’s attitudes toward you changes. This is because in their minds YOU have changed. They used to see you as a person who did give AND take, and now they see you as a person who just takes.
      There are many ways you can learn how to gauge this. Grapevine is a great help. Superstar Sue used to be the boss’ fav. Now that she has called in sick 27 times in the last two months rumor mill says the bosses are looking to fire her. Now you know, don’t call in sick excessively without talking things over with the boss. Your capital will NOT carry you.
      You can also gauge the status of your capital by looking at the workloads. If the workload is at killer levels, probably your capital has gone down some because the company is desperate to get the work done. Now is not a good time to ask for that 27 day vacation period you want. However, if work was slow and your job was not key at the moment, you might be able to use your capital to get that vacation. Don’t ask for another 27 consecutive days off for a looong time. You have spent that capital.

      It’s wise to keep building capital. Be helpful to others. If a problem comes up offer ideas. If something extra is needed and it is possible for you to do it, offer to do it. We never truly know all the ways we ourselves inconvenience others, it’s a good idea to keep this in mind. Assume someone has done something for you that you are not aware of yet and now it is your turn to do something for them. This does not have to be huge, but it does have to be thoughtful. For example, I am walking around with a large box of items. I approach a closed door. It’s unbelievable the number of people who see me with my arms full and see the closed door and then do nothing. Just that second of thought, “Hey I will get that door!” can be a few points in your favor. Some things cost you absolutely nothing but end up making you noticed by others. Some of the things I have been complimented on have left me baffled as to why the person valued my gesture so much. But they valued it.

      Capital is really not that strange a concept if you think about it. We value friends who give as well as receive. Family members who are helpful are also more valued than family members who drain people. Any healthy relationship involves both parties giving and taking. Thinking about the over all idea of a back and a forth in any relationship might be helpful for you.
      What we do as employees is find out what the boss places a high value on and what our other cohorts place a high value on. This shows us where they need the most support on an on-going basis.

    18. NW Mossy*

      To me, it’s basically asking “how strong are your relationships with people who are in a position to assist you?” We often think about this as being an upward thing (i.e., do you work well with your boss?), but it’s most often lateral with peers.

      Peer relationships are often undervalued as a source of political capital, but they are huge! First of all, everyone has peers, so you’re not shut out on the basis of your level. Second, there’s a strong network effect with peer relationships – once you’re part of a peer relationship with Jane, she can be a bridge for you to get to know Fergus, Lucinda, and Wakeen. Third, if your role or Jane’s changes, if you continue to keep up the relationship with her, you can support each other in new ways.

      Everyone else already gave good advice on how to build it, and I’ll add one thing – sometimes it’s good to spend a bit to reinforce a relationship. If you work with people who like helping others (many people do!), it can sometimes even be a building activity to ask for their assistance, especially if you’re obviously appreciative. Things like “I know you’ll give me good insight on Problem X” or “I heard about Issue Y that might impact you, do you want to weigh in?” can be really effective with those that like being valued for their particular expertise.

  4. Sunflower*

    So it finally happened. My company approved my move to NYC from Philly and i couldn’t be happier! I am attempting to negotiate my COL raise(i am definitely getting a significant bump) as well as relocation. My company is not going to pay a full relocation because I requested the move (even though it’s benefiting them). I’m not sure what is typically covered in relo but I’d really just like an extra thousand or two to move my clothes and personal items. Are there any other items i should attempt to negotiate in this? Or other items i should ask about that i might not be thinking of?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      That’s awesome!!! Congrats.

      Instead of actual cash, could you possibly negotiate paid time off to move?

    3. Technical_Kitty*

      Car if you have one to ship, or gas if you are driving it. And paid time when moving if you can swing it. If you have to move house because of work you should have to take PTO to pack and move and find a place.

      Oh, and if they have some contacts for finding housing or are willing to supply housing for the first month or two? I know you requested the move but if they want you to be productive that would be a great thing to offer. I know mining companies do that sort of thing.

    4. Knotty Ferret*

      My company is really generous with relocation; here’s some of what they include for you to consider:
      – lump sum to be used as you wish
      – moving truck and packers and moving insurance
      – time, transport, hotel to look for a new place to live
      – donation and (large item) trash pickup
      – tour from local employee around the area

      And congrats! I hope everything goes well for you!

    5. It happens*

      They won’t give if you don’t ask. Moving is expensive- movers are expensive, broker fees (15% of one year’s rent is typical in NYC), cancellation fees for any contracts you have in Philly (like lease termination or cable company.)

    7. Drama Llama*

      Since it benefits them, can you ask for full relocation fees but sign to reimburse them if you resign within a certain time? My husband’s company offered a generous relocation package, but if he resigned within 1 year he had to reimburse his company for 100% of costs; then 50% if he resigned within 1-2 years of the move.

  5. GoAskAlice*

    I’m in my mid-20s and in my first post-college office job. Things are going great, but I have a situation I can’t quite figure out and I’m a little embarrassed to ask my coworkers (since I’m still pretty new). I find myself wanting to reply to clients with the phrase “no worries” or “don’t worry about it,” but it sounds so…casual, and a little off-putting. I’m not talking about how people are saying the phrases “your welcome” and “thank you” are underused:

    Person 1: Let me get the door for you.
    Person 2: No worries! (thank you)

    Person 1: Thanks for getting me a coffee yesterday.
    Person 2: No worries! (your welcome)

    I’m talking more like:

    Client: Sorry I took an extra week getting you the very important file you needed to do your job.
    Me: *scratches head while thinking “no worries” would be an awful thing to say, but I don’t know what else to say*

    Is there a more professional way to say “don’t worry about it”? Should the fact that something went awry even be acknowledged? I feel like saying “no worries” or “don’t worry about it” or even “it’s okay” is almost condescending, but not recognizing the apology is kind of rude. Help! (And thank you!)

      1. Specialk9*

        I would just say “no problem” and maybe soften further with some other verbiage if it feels abrupt.

        “Sorry I took awhile…”
        “No problem, I appreciate it.” Or “No problem. I should be able to turn around the deliverable by X date.”

        I’m in the US, Northeast Coast. These things can vary regionally.

      2. Jen S. 2.0*

        I use “that’s all right” for this. It acknowledges the issue, but moves past it.

    2. B*

      I really like “not at all” in this context. It’s a little more formal-sounding than no worries, but it’s also kind of just a “this is an acknowledgement phrase” and you can put it before a comma (written or spoken) and so you’ve done the work of acknowledging the thing but can move along.

      I may have overthought this.

    3. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I think replying with a “Thank you!” would be alright. They’ve acknowledged there was a mistake on their part, you’re just acknowledging that you received the file.

      If you want to include more information even a “Thanks! The pattern for the llama tutus is really coming together, now.”

      1. Canarian*

        I don’t know, I think in that case it might come across as thanking them for apologizing, which is more of a way to acknowledge a genuinely merited apology and not a “don’t worry about it” kind of situation.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          I was just basing it off my own experience, where I work thanks is short for “thank you for the email I have received it and am acknowledging that you sent it, fellow person” whereas thank you. is literally “thank you”. Obviously this will vary by industry/company/relationship/etc.

    4. Morning Glory*

      I say “no worries” to coworkers who apologize for various things all the time, so I don’t think it’s offputting. Or sometimes I say something like “No, it was totally fine” or I just go with “thanks so much for getting it to me, now”

      These may all seem a bit casual though, since I work with colleagues more than clients.

      1. Specialk9*

        “No worries” sounds more informal than “no problem”. I remember when “no worries” was an Aussie/Kiwi thing only, but then it became ubiquitous in the US East Coast.

    5. DaniCalifornia*

      I think it depends on the rapport with your clients. I try to match my conversation over email or phone to what they have. I usually start out more formal (we’re in accounting) and if they make it more casual then I might say “It’s not a problem” (if it actually isn’t) I think it’s fine to respond with “Thanks for the file I’ll wrap up my part asap/by X date” or “Thank you so much, I’ll be in touch for ____ or by _____” I also throw in “I’m happy to assist” if needed when clients tell me sorry.

      I think just saying thank you and you’re welcome works best. It’s polite and can’t ever be taken poorly by the other person. I think culturally we have gotten away from you’re welcome and say no worries because most people truly don’t want to inconvenience others. No worries is a bit casual and I usually reserve that for coworkers if we know each other well or if there have already been a bunch of emails back and forth that say thanks.

    6. Seriously?*

      In the context you gave, I think “Don’t worry about it” is a fine response. Or “It’s not a problem”. It’s not condescending. You are acknowledging their apology.

    7. JokeyJules*

      at (huge famous hotel chain) we were trained to say “it’s my pleasure” so the guest didn’t feel like a burden at all.

      1. Doc in a Box*

        I would feel weird about saying or hearing this. Maybe in a hotel situation when asking for room service or a wake-up call it would make sense, but in your run-of-the-mill office?

        “I’m sorry for the delay in processing the Teapot insurance claims.”
        “My pleasure.”
        “…”

      2. Your Weird Uncle*

        Yeah, at a former job in a spa we were trained to say this. I worked there for about six months about 13 years ago and I’m still in the habit of saying it.

      3. pugsnbourbon*

        Technically I am supposed to say this as well but it has never, ever felt natural.

        I tend toward the informal. I say “no worries” when someone apologizes for a minor thing (it’s the Midwest, we apologize all the time). When I’m thanked, I usually say something like “of course!” or “you got it!” or “happy to help!” I try to convey with my tone and enthusiasm that I truly did enjoy assisting them.

    8. Moonbeam Malone*

      “Sorry I took an extra week getting you the very important file you needed to do your job.”

      It’s fine to acknowledge, and then politely let the client know how it will affect outcome. “Thanks for getting that to me! Right now we’re still working toward our original goal date but this could push it back a day or two if x-y-z comes into play. I’ll let you know if anything changes!” or “Thanks for getting me that file! As of now we’re still on track to meet our deadline.” To some extent you probably can adjust your communication style according to the client’s. I’d err on the side of being a bit more formal than the client is, particularly at the start, but as you settle in to a rapport if they’re being quite casual “no worries,” is not necessarily out of line.

    10. GoAskAlice*

      Thanks everyone! There are some really great tips in these replies! (I think I’m overthinking it a bit, but I’m so nervous about making a mistake/building my rep!)

    11. Courageous cat*

      These are all good – I also use “It’s no problem at all!” or “That’s perfectly fine!”

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Though it’s important to realize some folks will take you at your word – if they took an extra week, and you say ‘no worries’ or ‘that’s fine’ when they apologize, they might take that to mean you have soft deadlines and won’t mind them turning in other things late as well. If that’s the case, and there wasn’t a rush, then feel free to continue using the phrase! But if you /were/ impacted, I’d go with more of the ‘thanks for getting it to me. We should have step 2 done at x’ as Moonbeam said.

      1. kmb*

        I like this as a like generational cultural oddity. I have heard this explained somewhere (I can’t remember where, sorry, I found this: https://allthingslinguistic.com/post/124189121619/no-problem-vs-youre-welcome) as many Millenials having a pattern of using “you’re welcome” sarcastically, when you thought someone should have said thank-you but didn’t. I vividly recall this being a thing when I was a preteen. So to people who were used to that, saying “you’re welcome” has a tinge of rudeness and mocking, so then you say “no problem” instead so that you aren’t sarcastic by association, but to people who don’t have the “you’re welcome”-is-sarcastic, “no problem” seems dismissive of their appreciation.

    14. smoke tree*

      To be honest, it sounds to me like you’re overthinking this! I use phrases like “don’t worry about it” and “no problem” with clients all the time. It sounds like you feel the need to be kind of deferential in your language towards clients. Maybe this is the case in your industry, but in most cases I think it’s fine to talk to clients basically the same way you would talk to coworkers.

    15. Amaryllis*

      I like to acknowledge their hardship with something like “Things happen, I understand.”

      Depending on the relationship and/or severity of their issue, I may substitute a George Carlin words for “things”.

    16. bookends*

      Caveat that I’m also in my twenties, I think “no problem” or “thanks, no problem!” is completely fine.

      I also tend to use “I understand” if they gave a specific reason – like “sorry for the delay, we had a breakdown on a teapot line this week and things have been hectic around here.” “I understand – it happens. Thanks for sending this!”

    17. Windchime*

      I try to stick with “thanks” and “you’re welcome”. “No worries” sounds kind of flip to me, in the way that “My bad” does. Not always and not under all circumstances, but I generally try to avoid those two (“My bad” really bugs me for some reason).

    18. Mamaganoush*

      I wouldn’t say no problem, because you don’t want late work (for example) to become a habit, and someday it WILL be a problem. I’d say something like, Thank you, I appreciate that. I was able to adjust for it.

  6. saffytaffy*

    I think you’ve thought this out thoroughly, your approach sounds like it will go over well, and it is a good idea.

  7. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

    I work in a world that involves a lot of happy hours with colleagues at both my level and much higher. I’m absolutely fine with this—I really enjoy spending time with colleagues (many of whom are friends outside of the office) and drinking with them doesn’t bother me. But, after a night out a few weeks ago I started thinking about people who don’t or can’t go out after work, and how they’re missing out on (what I consider to be) valuable face time. These happy hours are great for getting to know those above me and having casual conversations about work I’m doing and what I would like to do in the future. I guess I’m just curious about what others think. Do you also find value in spending social time with colleagues? Do you worry you’re missing out if you can’t attend for whatever reason? I have also given a lot of thought to how hard it must be for someone in my world who doesn’t drink. It’s just so engrained in my work culture.

    In case it is relevant, I’m fairly low on the totem pole, so I’m not making any decisions about anyone’s career.

    1. AnonEMoose*

      I don’t spend much social time with coworkers. I’m an introvert, and by the end of the day, I just want to go home and decompress. Plus I sometimes have things I need to take care of or evening commitments.

      I think I probably have missed on some opportunities and chances to build my network because of it, although there isn’t a lot of outside socializing where I currently work. The thing is, that’s a price that, so far, I’ve been willing to pay. I only have so much time, and so much energy, and while I really do like my current job and my current company…I’m not really interested in making the sacrifices needed to climb the corporate ladder.

      1. Washi*

        I generally feel this way as well. Additionally, I do think socializing with coworkers can be valuable, but I think there is a point where anything above that doesn’t have a super high rate of return. Going to events every once in a while can be valuable to get to know people and build warm relationships, but I don’t think going every single week is markedly better for your career than going every 3 months.

      2. Specialk9*

        I love getting lunch with my coworkers, and have made some strong relationships. The only time I really liked going out for a drink after work, though, was after a big proposal – when everyone worked crazy hours and it was finally done, and everyone was a little giddy and silly. Otherwise, enh, not my thing. So I think those relationships can be built at work, to an extent.

        That doesn’t work everywhere, some places really want you to put in social time, drinking or golfing. But let’s be honest, as a woman I’m not going to break in to those cultures anyway, so I choose other orgs.

    2. pleaset*

      “Do you also find value in spending social time with colleagues? ”

      I don’t do it much because I don’t enjoy it and am pretty introverted. But I think there are surely value in it.

    3. AnotherJill*

      Honestly, so often happy hours are more like “clique time” than “valuable face time”. I know that after hours socializing is an established part of many jobs, but it is really not a great practice. Those who don’t or can’t participate for any reason often end of feeling alienated and out of the loop.

    4. Nervous accountant*

      I love socializing with my coworkers. Most of them are lovely people and a lot of them I would otherwise not have gotten to know (different ages social circles interests etc).

      However the socializing is limited to workdays/work events. only once in like 4 years I’ve met anyone on the weekend. Not that I refuse to, but it’s just never really come up. I personally feel this is a good balance.

    5. Anna Canuck*

      I value social time with colleagues, but I value doing the daycare pickup before they call social services more.

      I do go out post-work with coworkers occasionally, but it requires planning ahead and it has to be worth the complications. The easiest way to include non-drinkers and people with child/pet commitments post-work is to occasionally go out for lunch. It’s shorter and a bit more formal, but still good to chat with people and move beyond work-only interaction. My time to go out is limited, and given the choice between an evening with coworkers and an evening with my own social circle, I pick my friends for sure.

    6. Blank*

      I work in an environment where learning to join in on the mid-week happy hour was essential to feeling like I’m part of the team. Most of us are only on-site for a couple days every week, and might be spending a significant amount of time in meetings. Early on, it was the only time/place I could get to speak with higher-ups about getting my fixed-term contract extended.

      It’s very hard for people with caring responsibilities to join in, but people who can’t (or don’t) want to come along are definitely not part of the clique (about half of a 30-person department).

      So yeah – happily I enjoy spending this social time with colleagues, but also I find value in it too.

    7. Trout 'Waver*

      I love work socials and happy hours because I have awesome coworkers, but as a manager I can’t exactly suggest them. The other managers have small kids or don’t drink so that’s out too. It’s not a big deal to go without, but it is something I miss about previous positions.

    8. JDS*

      I think some work places are ‘who you know’ rather than what you do. If you’re not particularly social in the who you know places then you do miss out, unfortunately.
      I worked at a who you know place, and I’m not particularly sociable. I ended up leaving when it became obvious.
      Now I’m at a what you do that matters place, and I’m actually enjoying the occassional work social gathering.

    9. AliceBD*

      I almost always drink water, and I can’t think of the last time that I had alcohol when I was not home or at a relative’s house. Alcohol can disagree with my system (and not in a getting drunk way, but in a I feel unwell after a few sips of wine way) and it is exponentially more likely if I am in a social situation rather than being with family or very close friends at home. I also don’t drink soda/coffee/tea. I find happy hours annoying because there is often a big fuss about “finding something I can drink” and if there are no appetizers I can I feel bad for the venue of me taking a spot and not spending any money. I also can’t do them frequently because I am an introvert and also have plans after work.

      I think informal lunches during work are better (assuming this is the type of office job where there are not strict time frames for lunches etc) because everyone needs to eat lunch and there is less focus on what you are and are not having. As long as there are nearby restaurants that serve types of food that most people can eat I think lunch is a better option than happy hour. Or even potluck lunches depending on the Office culture.

      1. sunshyne84*

        Yea I’d rather have lunch with a coworker to build camaraderie or volunteer to plan a social event with others. I like happy hour, but I mostly like to keep work separate from home. If I mention something I’m doing outside of work and they say it sounds like fun then great maybe we can meet there.

    10. OtterB*

      We don’t do happy hours, but a year or two ago we started doing a one-day-a-week brownbag lunch in the conference room for anyone who was in the office that day and wanted to come. It’s a venue for everything from slide shows of someone’s recent cool vacation, to casual social conversation, to work-related questions like “How’s the x project going?” It works pretty well for us.

    11. designbot*

      There is definitely value in it, it’s an opportunity to test the waters for collaboration, give less filtered feedback, and identify allies. I’ve been sober for a year and a half so have cut back on this because I don’t always feel comfortable in the happy hour situations anymore and have definitely noticed a difference. I would encourage people to be open to this sort of bonding that doesn’t involve drinking or at least to not pressure coworkers who want to be present but are not partaking.

    12. Russian in Texas*

      In my current office, you are either part of the actual owner’s family, or you socialize with no one, and that’s OK with me – no lunches (or really rarely, never ever HH, no parties). It’s very “do your job and go home, and forger anyone you work with”.
      At my last job, most people had kids and commitments, and there was no socializing outside of lunches either, although people were a bit more social with each other than here. Met my former co-worker for lunch recently and she was actually complaining the company is now pushing happy hours and she has no desire nor time to go, and why won’t the leave them alone.
      Boyfriend works for a very large corporation. His department is mostly young (he is the oldest person there) and they like to go out, but he mostly skips, because he lives in suburbs (because we are old, lol), unlike the “youth”, and the HH happen in the hip part of town that’s far and expensive.
      So it really varies.

    13. BBBizAnalyst*

      I like my team a lot because we all have personal lives outside of work. We get along really well but have good boundaries in place. We do an occasional happy hour but nothing so frequently that it interrupts my actual life. No one’s penalized If they can’t attend because again personal life. I don’t think I could work on a team where work and personal blended so closely together. I love the separation. Personally, I have hobbies and friends outside of work I like to dedicate my time to. Being at work or anything work related more than I have to grinds my gears.

    14. SL #2*

      I had a job where the happy hours were in the office, starting at 3 pm on Fridays, and anyone who was in at the time (we had a lot of off-site work) could grab a handful of snacks or a drink (soda, sparkling water, beer for 21+ that was in a small, dedicated fridge) and hang around the communal table for a chat. I really, really liked that set-up. It didn’t put pressure on anyone to rearrange their plans, but it was dedicated time and space to relax.

      At my current job, my team eats lunch together most days–some of us buy from the cafeteria, some of us bring our own, but there’s several public areas in the building where it’s possible to sit together and eat and be goofy. Sometimes we talk about work, but most of the time we don’t. I don’t have a particular preference for either set-up, but I think having some time and space to connect with your coworkers and higher-ups is really important. Make it accessible and easy to join in, and the people will (probably) come.

    15. Ann Furthermore*

      With things like that, I’ll usually go and have a cocktail, followed by a soda, using the excuse that I have to drive home. I stay for an hour or so. Part of it is that I’m a bit of an introvert, so by the time the end of the work day comes, I’m ready to go home. And the other part — the built-in excuse — is that I have a child and I like to be home to do family stuff in the evening.

      Oftentimes I’d rather skip these functions, but I find that if I make myself go I almost always have a good time. My coworkers are all very nice people, and there is value in spending time together now and then outside of work. It helps everyone get to know each other a bit better.

    16. Frankie*

      I have a pretty collaborative job that can, at certain times, be jam-packed with meetings and conversations and no time for lunch…with that plus a commute, honestly most of the time it’s a real effort for me even to connect with my friends from outside work. I need my down time and reflection time. I do like to do lunches with my coworkers!

      I did the happy hour thing a bit more in jobs where my work was more solitary, and when I wasn’t in a relationship. It definitely can be valuable and fun.

    17. You don't know me*

      I absolutely hate workplace happy hours. Due to personal reason, I am unable to attend and I always feel left out. Especially after I have repeatedly asked if we can do something other than go to bar and I’m always blown off. They have become unofficial team events and I know I’m seen as not a team player because I don’t attend. And it sucks when everyone is talking about what a great time they had and everything they talked about and I’m clueless.

    18. Anonymosity*

      I’ve never wanted to hang out with most of my coworkers. I see them all day at work, and we can socialize at lunch if we like. I’ve always been hourly–when the clock hits five, my time is my own. There are other things I’d rather do after I leave the office. In most of my jobs, networking after hours has been neither expected nor necessary.

    19. Jules the Third*

      I spend 0 social time with coworkers outside of work hours. I’m a mid-level professional who’s not interested in going into mgmt / director / vp roles. I will sometimes do lunch or a short conversation, but it’s part of the working day for me.

      I keep work and social very separate – I never dated where I worked, for example. I’m also in a field where skill and ability matter a lot, and where I can name projects / numbers to demonstrate my experience.

      However – that’s my personal preference; I’m a geek, most of my coworkers are not, I prefer to hang with people with whom I share interests. If you share interests with coworkers (like golf or whatever), then do what works for you.

    20. Nacho*

      I went out drinking with my coworkers once. It was an awkward, shitty night with overpriced drinks that I never plan to repeat.

      1. London Calling*

        Ditto. I work in a very cliquey office with at least two people who don’t actually bother to acknowledge that I exist. They are not magically going to be all friendly and social after work, plus I have a long commute and I prize my time off. These people are colleagues, not friends. I’m as helpful, friendly and collaborative as I need to be for 40 hours, after that bye bye.

      2. Mamaganoush*

        Do you know the Housemartins’ song Happy Hour? (Refrain:what good place to be! don’t believe it…)

    21. Not So NewReader*

      I am not a drinker, personal choice. I avoid jobs where going out for drinks after work is “mandatory”. Like you say much information is conveyed during these off hour times and I just don’t want to work that way. If the socializing is optional but the information is necessary for my job to me that means the drinks after work are actually mandatory. It’s a necessity to go to these things to survive the job.
      I put a high value on hearth and home. To attend these informal but informative gatherings I need to get paid.

      And a part of my bias comes from having to deal with poor behavior from drunk cohorts, off the clock. It’s not fun. At all.

    22. Former Retail Manager*

      I definitely think there is value in spending time with both peers and management and, more importantly, I think it takes a good manager to realize that they should consider all candidates equally/not gloss over someone simply because that person has commitments or prefers not to go out with co-workers, but still does excellent work.

    23. Good, Cheap, or Soon. Pick Two.*

      As a mom of a toddler and someone who has never had a drink in her life, I can honestly say that office happy hour culture is something that I would rather see die. Quite frankly, there are issues with it that people who participate don’t always think about but that’s not what you’re asking.

      Way before I got married and decided to have a child, I still dreaded working in offices that had any form of happy hour/get together culture. I have a genetic condition that means I can not drink. While I can tolerate foods that have had the alcohol reduced by cooking, more than that can cause an attack of my disorder and that can have dire consequences. Yet, for some unknown and really annoying reason, there is always one blowhard that seems to think it’s going to ruin his night if I’m not drinking. Unfortunately, in office settings, this blowhard is usually above me in the chain of command. I should not have to have quiet understandings with coworkers and bribe bartenders to dress up a Coke to look like an alcoholic drink to ensure middle management doesn’t pester me all night. A non-drinker generally hates being dragged to a bar because we can count on being called upon to fulfill one of the following roles: babysitter, designated driver, mediator, or shoulder to cry on. Now, as a mother of a toddler, I truly despise office happy hour culture. It’s another part of how the “mommy track” gets perpetuated. I don’t have a choice about leaving right after work; my husband’s shift isn’t over until well after our childcare closes its doors. That means I can’t stick around to be pestered about not drinking. I am great at what I do and I put in just as much effort but the coworker who doesn’t do half as much can keep up when it comes to a shot contest and that’s what counts? F that.

      Back to my point about issues that people who participate don’t often see. There’s one benefit to not participating in office happy hours. You don’t get caught in the backlash when they blow up in people’s faces. This happens more than people would like to think. Quite frankly, it’s a bad idea to mix coworkers and alcohol. It leads to things like very awkward moments in the office, HR meetings, and occasional legal settlements. One company I worked for had to quietly pay for damages to the bar because the regional manager decided to have one too many tequilas and broke a table when he drunkenly stumbled into it. Another incident I heard of involved a case of someone talking to an intern’s chest all night. Said intern was less than thrilled about the conversation. Then there was the case of the coworker who decided to drive home after an office happy hour and was pulled over by the cops. We all got to face one-on-one meetings with HR asking if we were in the bar that night. Being a pregnant, cranky recluse was a blessing because it meant that my meeting was the shortest one. The rest of my group spent an average of twenty-five minutes being questioned about every little detail to see if they knew how much said idiot had to drink and if they could have stopped the man from getting behind the wheel.

      1. Lunita*

        My company is small and we have had some informal events that involve alcohol, but the industry itself has conferences, networking nights, etc, that I try attend. It’s harder now for me with a young child, but luckily I can make it work with my husband. These are always good events to get business done-all the people we work with are present.

    24. AcademiaNut*

      I personally enjoy events like this, within certain limits. A beer or two after work at the pub is fun, people getting plastered is not. And it does give an opportunity to mix with coworkers in a way that’s difficult when interacting in the office. One advantage is that I can talk to people I don’t normally interact with in my job, so I have a better sense of who does what, which can be very useful if I need their expertise later. I work in a highly collaborative research environment, so these sorts of things matter.

      I think there are two issues with this kind of thing. One is people who would like that opportunity, but aren’t able to participate (non-drinkers, people with outside work commitments, people who can’t afford happy-hour, even people who have to be sober to drive home). The second is people who don’t *want* the opportunity, and would rather visit a dentist without novocaine than interact with coworkers more than absolutely necessary.

      For the first, the key is to make sure that after-hours alcohol based events aren’t the only work-social activity (or even the majority). Have a weekly coffee hour (paid time!) in the office, with snacks. Or a once a summer weekend picnic (accessible by public transit, families welcome). Basically, make it enough of a variety that anyone who wants to can participate in something.

      For the second, make sure that the happy-hours (or other activities) are truly optional, and don’t affect performance reviews or raises.

  8. Frustrated*

    How can I stop feeling so envious that some of my friends don’t have to work? A few of them are either stay-at-home moms or unpublished writers with publishing aspirations. It is really hard when they talk about things like getting to wear pajamas all day or going to the beach in the middle of the day (I miss the days of having a summer break!). I have a job that can’t afford the flexibility of even working from home once in awhile. They are all married, so they have their health insurance covered and depend on an income through their spouses, but as a single person, I need to work because I am the sole supporter of myself.

    1. saffytaffy*

      Maybe it’s best to focus on what can make your own life more enjoyable. The job you’re working might not be the right fit, or you might need to make a change in another part of your life.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It may not be easy to get yourself into this head space, but try to remind yourself that people whose lives look great in superficial ways are often dealing with a lot themselves. Does it mean nobody’s life is harder than anyone else’s? Obviously not. But just because they talk about wearing pajamas all day or going to the beach in the middle of the day doesn’t mean that’s representative of what their lives are really like.

      1. Forking Great Username*

        This. When I was a stay at home mom I felt incredibly lonely and isolated, so focusing on the positives like being able to wear PJs all day was necessary for me to not just focus on how depressed I was. Not that that is the case for most stay at home moms, of course, just saying that rarely do you know the full picture of someone’s life.

        1. blue canary*

          Yuuup. When I was a SAHM, sometimes I was in my pajamas all day because I didn’t have time to get dressed. The “aspirational writer” thing does sound nice but I am VERY glad to be back in the working world where I can go to the bathroom without company and drink an entire cup of coffee before it gets cold and/or spilled.

        2. Washi*

          Right. I think OP is imagining all the great things they already have in their life plus getting to go to the beach in the middle of the day, when really it’s a whole different life and set of tradeoffs.

        3. Hamburke*

          Same here! I liked staying home with my kids – I thought it was the best option for raising them but it was lonely and isolating especially doing it in a location where few mom’s stayed home. I’m much happier now that 1- we’ve moved to an area where there are more sahm’s and 2- I work part-time so I can still be home with the kids several days a week.

      2. AnonEMoose*

        This. Everything is a tradeoff, in some sense. Choosing one thing means not choosing something else, most of the time. So maybe they get to wear pajamas today, but they have less overall income. Or sometimes they miss the social interaction that happens in the workplace, or would like the structure.

        A piece of advice from a blog (I think either Paging Dr. Nerdlove or Captain Awkward?) that has stuck with me is this: “Stop comparing your rough footage to everyone else’s highlights reel.” You live your day to day problems and frustrations, but you only see so much of that stuff with your friends.

        It always surprises me when I realize, in some way, that someone admires or envies something in my life. Partly, I don’t think about that stuff day to day, and I don’t think about how some stuff in my life might look to others. So, maybe just as a mental exercise, think about it a bit – what in your life might your friends think is cool? And focus a bit on doing something to make your life a little better or more enjoyable.

        1. Windchime*

          I love the comment about highlight reel vs rough footage. I used to have a friend who worked in the same job as me, only she was part-time. Her husband worked on and off, but wasn’t a high earner. They had a beautiful house on a corner lot, the kids had fancy clothes from the expensive stores, etc. And a boat! She gave her husband a BOAT for a gift! I couldn’t figure out why I was barely getting by, buying the kids clothes (on sale) at JC Penney.

          Years later, I learned that they were in debt constantly. They had no equity in the home because they kept taking the money out in home equity loans. And her husband had been FURIOUS about the boat; they used it for one summer then sold it.

          That was a huge learning experience for me. Also–I stayed home for three years with my kids when they were little. I loved my kids but I hated staying home with them. It’s way, way overrated.

          1. Manders*

            Yes, this! I felt like the miserly penny pincher in a particular friend group for years, and then found out some stuff about my friends’ expenses and debt loads that totally changed my perspective.

      3. Ali G*

        Totally. I kind of “don’t have to work” right now, but I want to. And it’s starting to eat at my self confidence that I can’t find a job to hire me.
        My husband makes enough money to support us both, but that’s not what he signed up for! So yeah, it “great” that I can work out in the middle of the day, go grocery shopping on Tuesday afternoon so we don’t have to do it on the weekends, or whatever else, but if I had my way I’d be working!
        I’m sure some of my friend might think my life is “awesome” right now but it doesn’t always feel that way.

        2. Loves Libraries*

          Me three. I did submit an application earlier today I’m hoping will lead to a new job.

      4. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        Yep. When I was self-employed I absolutely loved not having to wear pants, being able to work whenever I felt like it during the day and taking breaks whenever I needed to as long as I hit my deadlines. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut I was also living with family because I couldn’t make enough money to support myself and couldn’t find a better job. So damn right I focused on the positives rather than on the living situation I was extremely unhappy with–I love my family, but they’re stressful, and we get along a lot better when we’re not living under the same roof.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          This is a good point. Maybe these friends have absorbed that complaining to people about the day’s (or life’s) irritations is annoying, when they are after all in this situation many would envy because they set it up this way. So they focus on the good things about it when they talk about their day, rather than griping.

        2. !$!$*

          Sorry to derail but—there’s a hundred floors of terror, they’re not all gonna be winners

      5. Snark*

        And the people Frustrated is talking about are, frankly, probably not dramatically happier than she is, and are possibly dramatically less happy. Wearing pajamas all day bespeaks a level of lethargy that is rarely a particularly happy state. Even if I won Powerball and became a gentleman of leisure, I’d find that excruciating. A structureless, endlessly leisurely existence is not, in my observation, actually a happy one. Neither is being an unpublished writer, which adds a measure of ego-shredding rejection to the mix, repeatedly.

        As someone currently in a small gap between a layoff and when my new job starts, the only reason it’s not driving me bonkers is that it’s finite. I get a little, unexpected gem of a summer break, and then it’s over. I like that.

        1. Triumphant Fox*

          Yes to this! I have found that I really can’t handle the lack of structure that comes with not working. What starts as “Pajamas!” “I’ll get so much done!” “Time for new projects/hobbies!” turns into depression, shopping just to get out of the house, and lots of Netflix. I am much happier now and actually spend more time on projects and hobbies because I find that momentum is a huge factor for me – if I’m at rest I will stay at rest, so to be moving from work to something else is really freeing.

      6. MeM*

        It’s much better not to use others as a yardstick to measure your own happiness. You don’t want to be the type of person who finds joy in their own life because someone else is miserable. I doubt that you’d really feel better about your job/life if you found out that one of your happily married stay at home friends wasn’t really happy and had pain you didn’t know about.
        It’s natural to want what others have – but it would be better for you to determine what would make you happy and then work towards that as a goal.

      7. Lucky*

        Carolyn Hax (i.e., reigning queen of all advice columnists) says of this sort of envy:

        When I feel envy, I ask myself whether I’d trade lives with that person if I could — not the part I envy, but all of it. There’s always at least one part of their world (although typically dozens) that I wouldn’t want, enough to make me say, “No thanks, I’ll keep mine.”

        Don’t think I can link, so search “Carolyn Hax: Handling an Ugly Emotion Called Envy”. Me, I find satisfaction in my career and would not feel financially secure relying on my partner (when able-bodied, able to work), so trading those feelings for the occasional weekday trip to the beach is not a good trade for me.

        1. Thursday Next*

          SO MUCH THIS. I love Carolyn Hax. This is exactly what I was trying to convey elsewhere in this thread.

    3. Mutton Lettuce Tomato*

      I know it’s cliched, but comparison truly is the thief of joy. In general, I’ve tried to let go of those sorts of comparisons that leave me feeling sad about my own life. Sure, I don’t (and never will) have a million dollars, thick hair, a brand new Aston Martin, the financial ability to visit Europe twice a year, a waistline that doesn’t expand when I merely think about cake, etc. But why waste time and energy resenting others who do have those things? I try to be happy for those who have things I don’t, try to resist throwing myself pity parties too often, and instead focus on building the best life for myself with the things I do have. I’m much happier since I let go of most of that. I hope you can find your way to having an equally happy life with perks that others might envy. I also agree with what saffytaffy said. Refocus those thoughts and that energy and you’ll find yourself much happier in your own life and in your friendships.

      1. Snark*

        And, to be frank, Frustrated is not only obsessing about these comparisons, she’s obsessing about herself in the process. I find that the more connected someone is to nature, beauty, and their surroundings, the happier, less angry, and less self-absorbed they’re likely to be.

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      I was the last of all of my friends to get married at almost 40, and I understand how you feel. Those feeling of envy, especially when work wasn’t so great, can really get to you. I worked hard to focus on the things I was happy about and tried to make the most of being the master of my own life. Now that I have to make dinner for four people every night, I really look back on the nights of Diet Coke and popcorn for my evening meal with incredible fondness.

      I would also encourage you to examine how happy you are in your current job. When I had greater job satisfaction, I was much less bothered by what other people had going on.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah, this is real as a part of the struggle. I’m single past the age where most of my friends are married, and it *is* tough sometimes (though there are very real advantages too). We live in a culture that does glorify the idea of families and marriages – even though the policies don’t line up with that particularly – and it can be hard not to feel like its unfair sometimes. I remind myself that working mothers have it really hard, and their joyous facebook posts aren’t the whole story. Then I get off facebook for a while.

    5. Manders*

      I struggle with this too!

      What are you feeling envious of more, the free time to relax or the free time to create art? I think the solutions to those things are different. If you’re craving more creative outlets in your life, there’s a way to make that work around a full-time schedule. If you’re frustrated about not having free time to relax that may be a bigger issue with your job or your commute.

      I’d also point out that going to the beach in the middle of the day sounds great, but wearing pajamas at home all day isn’t really the healthiest plan long-term. Most successful writers I know are pretty scrupulous about making sure they bathe and dress in real clothes and get out of the house regularly, and sliding away from that routine can be a sign of trouble.

    6. gecko*

      Maybe, figure out what it is that you’re really envious of? Beaches, of course :) But I mean–is it that you need some time to relax? You wish you were more in control of your time and your schedule? You want someone else to share the burden of paying the bills, so you can take your mind off it once? You just don’t want to work now, or you want to be doing something else? You’re unhappy and you feel isolated because your friends aren’t sharing your life experiences? No matter what it is–even if it feels kind of ugly and mean–it’s ok; but it’s worth figuring it out, because all of these things have different solutions or resolutions.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        This is great advice. I’ve realized that a lot of my envy comes from the fact that I feel trapped in my butts-in-seats 50 hours a week lifestyle. I feel like I’m missing out on the little pleasures of life. This feelings is real, and is inspiring me slowly to work towards being self-employed so I can set my own schedule and benefit from a little more flexibility. It really has nothing to do with my married and underemployed friends at all.

        1. Manders*

          I feel this too. I really like my job, but I find myself daydreaming about how much time and money I’d save if I could teleport instead of commuting. And the other day I found myself struggling to explain to my doctor that I eat 2 out of 3 meals a day at my desk, and my dinner at home is usually a random selection of items grabbed from the fridge, because cooking takes time and requires a lot of planning and decision-making I don’t feel like doing after a long day. It’s not work that’s the problem so much as it is everything else that goes into getting there and planning life around it.

          1. Lil Fidget*

            Yeah exactly, I feel like work has become this black hole of time and energy that sucks up all my best productivity, leaving me with scraps. It’s not even the actual work itself, it’s just getting there, sitting at my desk all day and wasting time, and getting home late, exhausted. I could do my job in 35 hours a week if there was any incentive to do that, but I’m not allowed to.

            1. gecko*

              Both Lil Fidget and Manders–those sound like brutal jobs. And best of luck getting out–that kind of thing can just drain you.

              On a weird flip side, when I feel envy for my friends’ working lives, it’s actually usually because they’re in jobs with more prestige & name-recognition–and figuring that out has actually helped me be a little more content with my current job, since I’ve pinpointed what it is that I feel is lacking.

              1. Manders*

                It’s honestly not that brutal a job for me! I really do like it and I feel like I’ve found my groove. It’s the combination of the Seattle commute + unfortunate personal circumstances that just wrecked me. Plus I’m overdue for some blood work, it’s possible there’s a treatable medical issue at play.

                1. Windchime*

                  I do the Seattle commute, too, and it’s brutal. I’m coming from up north and have started leaving the house at 5:15 AM. It sucks getting up so early but it makes a huge difference, commute-wise.

            2. Manders*

              In fairness, I do have some other energy-draining stuff going on outside work (dying family member, who requires a lot of trips across the country and unpleasant caretaking duties). Do you have anything else going on in your life that’s making you feel like you’re not living for yourself? What would you do if you had all those productive hours to create whatever you wanted?

              1. Fangy Yelly*

                Are you me? I also have the Seattle Commute, a job with no flexibility (which I wanted to leave ages ago), and far away dying family member . The jetlag from overseas caretaking is no joke!

                1. Manders*

                  Oof, I can’t imagine the stress of overseas jetlag on top of that. My mom’s only a couple of time zones away, and Alaska has a direct flight out to her city, thank goodness.

                  My job actually has a great amount of flexibility, which is why I can travel out to see her as often as I do, but the downside is that I really have to bring my A game at work to keep up when I’m in the office.

                  Much sympathy to you! I can’t wait for the new light rail stops, they’re going to change my whole commute situation.

      2. Frustrated*

        I think it is many of these aspects. I feel exhausted all of the time, but I do not have the ability to cut back to part-time hours or any flexibility about where I work (it is an office job), so maybe a desire to share the burden also comes into play. I also have creative interests that I never have enough energy for after work.

        1. gecko*

          My sympathies–it’s never just one thing, is it? You know, I suspect you might be interested a change in job, maybe one that allows more flex time or work from home capability.

          But that feeling of no energy, grinding dullness–all that is so familiar to me, and makes me wonder if you’ve struggled with depression. For me, I go through periods of minor depression that I don’t notice until I start coming out of it–and coming out of it sort of feels like what you describe. I still feel depressed…but I’m starting to want things…but I’m so tired…and it sometimes comes out in emotions I kinda wish I weren’t having, like envy.

          It’s a maybe/maybe not, but it might be worth mentioning to your doctor and seeing if you fit the bill. Just another part of figuring out what the root of the envy might be, and often a treatable problem.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            If life feels like it’s all about work, that stands alone to trigger depression.
            If life is not where we want it to be that can make us feel depressed also.

            We get energy from eating good foods, getting proper rest and, oddly, we get energy from knowing that we are contributing to our world in a meaningful manner.

            I agree, OP, it sounds like new job time. Perhaps something with a shorter commute? Maybe if you had a job where you felt you were making a real contribution?

            Let your envy motivate you to start making small changes in your life. This can be any change you want and is doable for you. Yeah, pick stuff that you will actually do, for now skip the stuff that feels like too far a reach. We can let envy encourage us to beef up our own things that we have going on. Use the envy to work for you, rather than against you, OP.

      3. Mad Baggins*

        I recommend the podcast Meditation Minis because they’re great little meditations, but specifically for Frustrated I recommend one called something like “Finding Vacation in the Everyday”. It guides you through imagining a vacation, and then suggests you pinpoint what parts of that make you feel luxurious. Is it not having to rush through breakfast? Seeing new sights, sounds, foods? Not thinking about all the things you have to do so you can be in the moment? Then it asks you to think about how you could add one or some of these feelings into your everyday life. Maybe it feels like a little extra work to get up early so you can have a luxurious breakfast, but maybe that little slice of vacation once in a while gives you a some room to breathe. Maybe you take a different path to work or go for a walk at lunch and notice your surroundings like you’re in a new city. This was really helpful for me when I was feeling beat down by work and jealous of people who seemed free from the grind. Now I’m still working, but I’m free from the grind part.

    7. BadWolf*

      A few things I’d remember is that not having an outside job has it’s own cost/benefit. Things can change rapidly and getting back into the workforce can be tough once you are out. Plus the things people share with you is never the whole picture. Getting the kids the beach might have taken 2 hours and lots of tears. Wearing pajamas all day can be a fun choice or trying to put a good spin on feeling blue.

    8. Anna Canuck*

      If you envy a stay at home mom, borrow those kids for a day and you probably won’t envy her any more. Working is freaking amazing compared to staying home.

      Signed,
      took two non-consecutive years of mat leave and wouldn’t stay at home unless we were “get a nanny anyway” rich.

      2. nonegiven*

        My aunt was thinking about a second child. She borrowed my son for a week. He nearly ate her out of house and home. She was cured.

    9. Falling Diphthong*

      Separate this into two groups: The at-home moms are working, at at task that is often lonely and tiring. And rewarding in some ways–I did it, I liked it–but they are going to the beach while constantly alert (no drowning!) and intervening when their child tries to pour sand over another child’s head. Getting out of the house routinely is often good for parent and child, but it’s not like they are indulging themselves doing the things they enjoy at their own pace. It’s all worked around childish attention spans and tolerances.

      The unpublished writers have a spouse willing to let them pursue something that may or may not pay off. That’s a luxury, and it’s okay to be envious of people who, for whatever combination of life circumstances, can pursue an artistic or similar bent without it paying off or needing a day job. (Though I will pass on advice from a published writer about going and sitting at his typewriter at 9 in the morning. If inspiration was looking for him, he would be easy to find and in a position to write it down; this was not true if he was sitting in the bar, hoping inspiration looked him up and then took notes for him.)

      1. Frustrated*

        You are right that I probably should not have conflated the two groups, but the two SAHMs I am thinking of have older kids, not really young ones, so the kids are actually at school all day. I suppose what I envy is the extra time during the day to pursue hobbies and other interests because I never seem to have enough energy for my own outside of work.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          The quest for more energy worked into a huge journey for me. One big learning experience I had was reading some folks believe that if we give so much of ourselves to a job that we have nothing left when we get home that is an ETHICAL issue. They believe that it is unethical to give so much at work that there is nothing left for home.

          Do you say YES to everything they ask you for at work? Maybe it’s time to start saying NO. Strategically saying no, that is. You know the types of tasks the consume your energy. You know when you are doing other people’s work for them. Maybe you NO is under-used. Other times maybe you can ask for a helper instead of doing a huge task by yourself. Take a look at how you work, see if there is something there.

      1. Kate*

        THIS. My mom was a SAHM for most of my childhood, and it put her in a terrible position as my father controlled their money and was/is emotionally abusive. It has made it extremely difficult for her to leave. To someone on the outside, everything would have looked great. Watching that as a child, I swore that I would make sure that I was always in a position to be financially independent – and I am (although now married and my husband is a grad student so financially dependent on me at the moment). Don’t discount the peace of mind that comes with financial self-sufficiency.

      2. Female-type person*

        YES. I have two friends who have college-age children, and difficult relationships with substance abusing (in one case) and mentally ill (in the other case) spouses. Neither have worked in over 20 years. They are in very vulnerable positions emotionally as well as economically, and retirement is looming for us all, some sooner than later.

      3. UtOh!*

        I was just coming here to say the same. Though you never want to wish it on anyone, things can change in an instant and if you have no back up plan, you can be in a whole world of hurt. Both of my SILs are SAHMs and have been for 20 years. One I could understand because her daughter was a preemie, and had a kidney transplant when she was in elementary school, but she was also a helicopter mom (my niece is doing great, just got her Master’s). My other SIL told my brother she did not want to work, then had a couple of kids, and during that time went to school to be a RAD tech, but then bailed, got her teaching certificate but never did more than substitute teach, and now only works a few hours at a library. She no longer has to be at home for her kids, but she still won’t get a real job. This has put so much pressure on my brothers to be the sole breadwinners, and they have both been out of work (one of them is right now), so the struggle is real. I have never, ever thought of not working, even if I had kids (I’m CFBC), it would make me even more determined to have a career as well. I am not envious of my SILs *at* all.

      4. gecko*

        Yes, though I think that dealing with envy by saying “actually it’s not so good” is an incomplete and impractical solution. What do you do if their life is, in fact, that good, and stays so for a very long time? And if they have other safety nets so they’re not in more risk than you are? And if they are just happy?

        I think it’s totally ok in a dark moment to say, oh her life isn’t good in this way that my life is good. But that’s still continuing the direct comparison, and you can’t rely on that forever, and it’s not a good way to treat a friend.

        I mean, the end goal is to treat yourself and the friends you’re jealous of with empathy, and figure out a way to escape whatever dark place you’re in; and how to do that (if it’s possible) is really hard work. I just think that explicitly trying to imagine how others’ lives are crummy–not three-dimensional, just crummy–can be a way of dragging other people into that dark place with you instead of saying it’s possible to get out.

      5. Not So NewReader*

        This, this, this.

        OP, my husband called in sick to work one day and three months later he died. Life comes at us fast, OP. Very fn fast.
        There will always be people in our lives whose position looks enviable. That is temporary, OP. It will change. Hopefully not change in too terrible a way but there will come a point where you will be glad to have your own life and not your friends’ lives.

        As much as I don’t like how my story played out, I will keep it if it means I can avoid having other people’s life story. Life can get rough and sometimes it can get down right impossible.

    11. AnonResearchManager*

      I felt this way too when I was within my first few years of entering the workforce. That jealousy really stemmed from several things for me including… 1. not liking my job AT ALL, I was completely mis-cast and in the wrong field all together, 2. My own intrinsic need for flexibility in my work, as an entry-level employee I wasn’t granted much and it was something I found was of great importance to me, 3. my focus was on the WRONG things.

      It’s worth taking some time to examine why you’re feeling like this so you can identify ways to rectify it.
      One big thing that helped me was time. Now, 15+ years into my career I have racked up accomplishments and am at the point I’m very much in demand, I can be choosey about positions I take and I make tons of money. If I had leaned out to be a stay at home spouse or work on an unpublished pet project I wouldn’t have been able to set myself up the way I have now.

      I decided back then that if I was going to have to work, I’d be ALL IN and really push myself to be the BEST. As in the best I could be, the best in my area, the best in my field (after I’d changed fields and found one I loved). That decision has paid off in droves, I’m the most successful of all my friends, because I redefined my view of success. Success to me isn’t not working, and having some else to pay my bills while I go to the beach all day. I decided success to me would be mastering my field, racking up professional accomplishments and leveraging my position into those of greater and greater responsibility and influence. I’m definitely not envious of anyone anymore, in fact many of my stay at home friends now tell me they’re astounded by everything I accomplished.

    12. mark132*

      Just because the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence doesn’t mean it truly is. My wife is a stay at home mom, and I think there are more than a few days she would love to trade places with me. Sometimes she can get very lonely/bored.

    13. NLMC*

      Sure it sounds great to be able to rely on someone else’s income but then again you are relying on some else’s income. What happens if they lose their job or get injured or worse? What happens if they decide they want out of the marriage?
      You are not just working for today (or for the weekend). You are building your retirement (hopefully), your resume, and your network among many other things.
      Sure it would be great to be “kept” but there are way too many downsides.

    14. Thursday Next*

      I think the key is to put “pajamas” and “weekday beach trip” into the context of the rest of their lives. Are they changing diapers every 2-4 hours? Then wearing easy to wash clothes makes sense! Do they have kids too young for school? Getting them out of the house to make their messes outside can be a relief!

      Obviously I don’t know your friends’ situations, but the stuff we hear about—or hear *and choose to remember*—are such a small piece of our friends’ lives.

      Now turn that around and look at yourself. You have to work to support yourself. That means you’re not answerable to anyone else for your financial decisions. You’re building up a work history, so you can keep supporting yourself. You have daily interactions with other adults (do not underestimate how isolating being a SAHP and/or aspiring writer can be). These are things your friends probably envy about you.

      1. Frustrated*

        I conflated the two groups because they have older children in middle school who are usually at school, so they are largely free to pursue whatever they want during the day. But I understand that I need to look inward about the positives of my situation!

    15. Zennish*

      You will never, ever reach a position where you can’t find someone or something to be envious of, if that’s what you’re looking for. I mean, Mark Zuckerberg could spend all of his time envying Bill Gates, but what would it accomplish? Build a life you’re satisfied with, and let everyone else do everyone else.

    16. Frankie*

      I wouldn’t be envious of the SAHM situation, honestly. Yeah, they get that time with their kids, but they’re isolated, often don’t get a ton of adult conversation in their lives, they question their value, people put them in the “mom” box and don’t approach them as individuals with identities. That on top of the grueling labor of childrearing and housekeeping…yeah, you’ve got some schedule flexibility, but childcare is neverending work. Everything is your job.

      All that to say, it’s all a trade-off, and people are going to talk about the positives and you might never hear about the negatives.

    17. Jules the Third*

      Focus on your goals and what ‘success’ looks like to you. Make a plan to get to those goals, and a realistic one, that depends on your actions, not on ‘marry a rich guy’. Cultivate the long view – you are building skills and experience that will reduce your risks.

      And indulge, once in while, in a vacation day where you just go to the beach.

    18. Anonymosity*

      I don’t know. I’m a writer who isn’t working right now and without a spouse or any insurance. I need a day job just to survive. It’s stressful as hell I’ve worn pajamas all day, but honestly, I think if I had the luxury of a spouse who supports me, I would either have to rent a coworking space or at least have an office I only go into when working.

      Staying home all day gives me cabin fever. I had the option to work from home whenever I wanted at Exjob, but I went into the office nearly every day because I’m sick of staring at the same walls 24/7. Maybe a few of your friends feel the same way and they’re rhapsodizing about it to make themselves feel better, and giving you the highlight reel.

    19. Super B*

      I never understood the appeal of wearing pajamas all day? That sounds like what a depressed unemployed person, or some exhausted new mom suffering from baby blues and breastfeeding on the clock, would do. No for me, thank you very much.

      1. Amaryllis*

        I wear pajamas on my telecommute days, because I am so gleeful about it that it keeps me mindful and grateful to have that perk. But living in them 24-7 would take the shine off, right quick.

    20. Argh!*

      After I went back to grad school, my married friends said “I wish I had the freedom to go back to school!” … and all my fellow grad students were married! They had health insurance, some had houses, or they split expenses with their grad-student spouse.

      The single life has many, many hidden costs, both financial and emotional. I have stopped trying to explain this to my married friends.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah I feel like this doesn’t get talked about enough, and I’m not trying to say it’s equal with the scale of the national atrocity that is maternity leave / childcare options, but it’s real for those of us who struggle with it.

      2. Manders*

        Yes, this is something I noticed about grad school too! I wasn’t going, but I was dating a grad student through a big chunk of my early 20s, and there was a lot of pressure on me coming directly from his department to be his support system. We did get married, but only after he left school, because I found the (usually unspoken, but sometimes told outright) expectation that my job was to do the dirty work of making money so he could live the life of the mind so uncomfortable.

        He still benefited from having the ability to split things like rent and grocery costs with me–I don’t know what he would have done if all he had was his stipend in our very expensive city. He did have some single friends in the program and they struggled with burnout and poverty. Grad schools often aren’t set up for single students to succeed.

      3. Washi*

        SO TRUE. And I’m surprised your married friends don’t get it, because while I’m not free to date whomever I want or leave town unannounced, I’m more free from so many other things that I’m married/partnered. I’m not as terrified to lose my job, travel is more affordable, grad school is more feasible, rent is cheaper, chores are shared, I have a go-to person for emotional labor…the DINK lifestyle is pretty great, not gonna lie!

    21. KatieHR*

      I totally get what you are saying. My largest issue of “jealousy” stems from friends and my husband who are teachers. It is really hard going into an office during the summer when the rest of my family is home and going to the pool with all my friends. I still struggle with this but I know deep down that I would never ever want to be a teacher…I just want my summers off. I have recently deleted my facebook account and since I can no longer see all the perfect fun summer pictures, I think my time will be easier this summer. I also recently went back on anti-anxiety meds and feel better about myself and my position. Good luck!

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I have also had to just ask my friends who don’t work, to please not text me during the day about all the fun things they’re doing. It was totally not intended to be hurtful, but it was really, really killing my morale. Even little things like grocery shopping or the gym at 3PM on a wednesday, when I kill myself trying to get those things done at the exact same time as everybody else in this crowded, stinky city wants to do them – just don’t remind me about that when I’m stuck processing TPS reports. They all agreed to stop right away and I noticed a big improvement in my mood.

    22. Unacademic*

      There is a lot of good advice above, particularly about comparing every aspect of their situations, rather than just the highlights. It can be helpful to trace it back to decisions you and your friends have made, and where you have had control (because right now you’re focusing on something you don’t have control over). In my case, I have a few friends buying houses when I couldn’t dream of affording one. But to be in the place they’re in, buying a house, I would have had to study finance or go to law school, I would have to work their jobs, I would have to be tied to the cities they’re in, etc, and those are all things I have chosen NOT to do. Still, I know that’s only a part of the equation – sometimes we wish we could have had the choices our friends had, the luck of a good/supportive partner, etc.

      So here’s another way to approach it: try to refocus on measuring your successes on your own internal metrics. That doesn’t necessarily mean trying to come up with ways you are successful (though that is nice). It might mean realizing there are things that are important to you that you don’t have right now, and coming up with a (realistic) plan to work your way towards them, so you can measure your path against your own plan, not the life someone else is living. So for you that might mean a job with more flexibility – is that available in your field? What kind of work do you have to do to get there? Should you be applying to other jobs now, or getting more experience in a particular aspect of the field? Does it mean changing fields altogether, and if so, are there fields adjacent to yours that offer what you’re looking for? And so on and so forth. None of these things are immediate, but it will still feel better being in that no flexibility job if you can see it as moving you towards the more free time job in your future. Then instead of focusing on how much your friends have of the thing you want, you can focus instead on your own forward momentum towards that thing you want, and measure your own distance from it, and your own progress. You don’t have to want that thing less, but you can change your frame of reference towards it.

    23. Mamaganoush*

      You’re smart to be working! You are (I hope) saving for retirement/have a 401k with an employer match, you are building a career, you are gaining skills and knowledge that people will pay for. Being a SAHM rarely gives you your own individual retirement account. Some of those marriages are going to end in divorce and some of those women are going to need to work outside the home — and they can be at a real disadvantage. (I’m not dissing SAHMs — personally I think they should be paid from the family income for the substantial work they are doing at home.)

    24. Anna Held*

      You’re not dependent on anyone else. Spouses lose jobs, become ill and can’t work, leave their spouse, die unexpectedly. Investments fail and trust funds dry up. You are not dependent on anyone else’s salary, health insurance, or financial savvy. No, these things don’t end up being a problem for everyone, but you never know who will get zapped. You can take care of yourself, which is huge. It is HARD getting back to work once you’ve been out for a while.

    25. Phoenix Programmer*

      My husband is stay at home with our first child on the way and the one thing I’ll say is – it’s a lot of work! Cooking for two, laundry for two, dishes for two. Plus having to deal with a lot of stuff singles who typically rent don’t have to like main sewage line cleaning, basement despidering, etc.

      Plus a lot of SAHS never get a weekend off. In our family I do all the chores every 3rd weekend which helps keep me appreciative of the work volume.

      Finally you would be surprised how most people yreata SAHS. My husband gets dirty looks, acquantinances have literally turned to me and said – you put up with that? Like my gubby is somehow a leech.

      I don’t know about most SAHS but we are a one car family too so usually gets stuck home all day too.

      Worth it for our family – we argue and go out to eat a lot less when one person is home dealing with home stress. But definitely not a walk in the park.

    26. Double A*

      I want to acknowledge what you said about being single! I don’t know if any of this will apply to you, but this was something I struggled with. I got partnered and married in my 30s, which was something I knew I really wanted to do, but there were many times up until that point that I was struggling with being single. Here are some things that helped me (I’m a heterosexual woman, so change pronouns as needed if you want to apply it to yourself):

      1) Acknowledge that partnership, marriage, kids were goals I wanted. Stop feeling like I “should” be able to be a totally happy self-sufficient independent lady who lives an utterly fulfilled single life without a man, and would only deign to partner up with a man once I’m totally 100% happy and fulfilled on my own.

      2) Acknowledge that being single is FREAKING HARD a lot of the time and people don’t acknowledge that. Only relying on yourself can make you feel like you’re on a knife’s edge a lot of the time. This may sound stupid, but I read this self-help book called “It’s not You” about being single, and it just acknowledged some of the challenges you deal with as a single person and it helped a lot with perspective for me.

      3) Realize that being in a bad/the wrong relationship is worse than being single. Tim Urban has a couple of posts if you google “How to Pick Your Life Partner” that give some really useful perspective on this too.

      Anyway, not sure how much this issue is bugging you, but you did mention it, so I thought I’d share some things that were helpful to me.

  9. Serious Pillowfight*

    If a position’s salary range is $40-$45k, but they tell you during an interview that it’s not set in stone and you have 10+ years of experience in a closely related field, how much more can you ask for during negotiations without being ridiculous? Would $60k be too high?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily too high, but you’d have to be a really outstanding candidate—to the point where the position’s responsibilities themselves would change because of how high level you are—to warrant a 25% over top-of-the-budget offer. You say you have 10+ years’ experience. How many years’ experience are they looking for? And is having experience in your closely related field “as good as” (to them, on paper, not in terms of your actual day-to-day work, which they’ve never seen) having exeprience in that exact field?

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        The job is advertised as entry-level, but I get the sense they’re eyeing me for what I can bring to the company overall, not just in terms of being a body to fill the position (although of course that, too).

        I think that, yes, my experience in the closely related field matters heavily to them. Same type of work, but applied to tea instead of coffee.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          If you get the sense that they really want you and if $60K isn’t unreasonable for the other types of positions you might take, then you should go for it. If they’re serious about you, they won’t rescind. And if they want someone more experienced, they’ll have to up the range from an entry-level one to a higher-level one.

          1. Serious Pillowfight*

            True. I wish I had a crystal ball that would tell me whether they’d be glad/able to raise the pay for me based on my experience or whether they’d be put off by my request for more money. E.g. “You knew the position was entry-level, so why are you asking for so much more money?” versus “Yes, you’re great and would be a huge asset to the company overall.”

      2. Serious Pillowfight*

        At the same time, they could have budget constraints I’m not privy to, which could be why they say they’re specifically seeking entry-level.

    2. mreasy*

      I have negotiated a $15K increase in range before – if you are truly a stellar candidate who is coming in with tremendous experience and a fantastic track record, it is absolutely not unheard of. The worst they can say is no.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        $15K over $45K? I don’t think the raw number matters as much as the percentage.

        1. Serious Pillowfight*

          Good point. I’d be happy with $50k, which I doubt would be a problem, but I don’t want to leave money on the table.

          1. Lil Fidget*

            I think you could ASK for $60K but expect them to talk you down, if you know you’d be happy with 50. I don’t think asking is going to get you kicked out once you’ve made it through the interview stage and are looking at an offer. If you know you wouldn’t take the job for less than $60 I’d say it might not be worth pursuing because it’s variable if a company is going to consider varying that much from their stated range; some will, some won’t.

    3. ANon..*

      When it comes to the point where you want to negotiate the salary, make them negotiate against themselves first. Ask them, “I know you mentioned that the salary range of $40-45k is not set in stone, so I’m wondering what room there is to increase it, especially given my experience and how I think I could help in X and Y ways.”

      See what number they give you. If it’s too low, say $50k, you could say, “Well, I was really hoping for something in the $55-60k range – I would be ecstatic to accept if we could make that work!”

      2. whistle*

        If I was the company and had published a salary range, I would not throw out another number until the candidate gave me a number, and I’d be pretty annoyed at the candidate’s attempt to get me to “negotiate against myself”. The company has published a range in good faith. Now it’s the candidates turn to provide a counter offer.
        Serious Pillowfight, I say go for it! All you can do is ask and the worst they can do is say no.

        1. Serious Pillowfight*

          Thanks, whistle. The range wasn’t published but told to me by a higher up during our interview. He also said it wasn’t set in stone.

          1. whistle*

            You’re welcome. In that case, I would double down on my advise to not attempt to get a new number out of them without you providing the number you are looking for.
            Another suggestion based on my experience on both sides of these negotiations: enter the negotiation with two numbers in mind – the number you are going to ask for and the lowest number you would accept. I think a lot of people enter negotiations with only the first number in mind, and this can lead to the person either accepting less than they want or declining an offer that they would be happy with.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think you can float that balloon if you have a semi-frank discussion with them about whether or not if you’re hired they’d only expect the entry level performance out of you, or whether the role would be expanded/modified to include the additional work/experience you bring to the table. If they’re shooting for the expanded role, I don’t think you needed to be shy about asking for an expanded salary range. It doesn’t sound like they’ve made an offer yet, so they may come back with a higher number anyway just based on your experience, but if they do offer $45k you can negotiate with some language to indicate both your interest in the role, and that you understand your counteroffer may not be possible.

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        Good point about clarifying whether they still want entry-level even with my 10+ years experience or if they’d expand the role.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          If they try to stick your experienced peg in an entry-level hole, I don’t think you’ll have as much room to negotiate, unfortunately, at least not 15k worth of room. Hopefully, talking to you has given them ides about how the role could be more than just entry level and sparked their interest. Good luck!

    5. Anonymous Poster*

      That’s a third higher than the highest budgeted amount they’re advertising.

      I really think that 60k for a position where they post a range of 45k is too high. Maybe 10% would be the highest above their range you might be able to ask for without coming off as way too experienced for the role.

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        Thanks. I figured 60k might be too pie-in-the-sky but wanted to check before I decided against asking for it. I’d be happy with 50k. If I get an offer below 50k I will probably ask for 55 with the hopes of at least getting 50.

        45k isn’t much more than I make now (38k) so in that case I’d likely feel I should hold out for something higher paying.

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          That makes sense.

          If your level of experience in your field should put you at 60k, though, maybe another place will pay you what you’re worth? I would try to avoid jumping at any raise, though I don’t know your full situation, so even this bump might be worth it.

          1. Serious Pillowfight*

            My field is very broad and applicable in almost all industries, but so far I’ve worked only in a low-paying industry. So salaries really run the gamut. It depends on what industry you’re in.

            1. Anonymous Poster*

              Hm, then if this job gets you on the path to that higher salary doing work you like, then you can also view it as a stepping stone on your upward income slope.

              Either way, best of luck!

              1. Serious Pillowfight*

                Thank you! The company does seem to offer lots of opportunities to grow, so I’m factoring that in for sure!

    6. Malloy*

      Well…first, the one thing you cannot do is ask for more than your would-be manager makes. So assuming your manager is several bands higher than entry level, you should OK. Just be sensitive to this aspect because it will send things south fast.

      I think if you ask for $60k, t should be because the market demands $60k for your skills. You should *not* ask for the $60k for the entry level role. I’d frame it as, “given your description of the role and my experience, would you consider making this a more senior role?” And start the discussion there. If you take an entry level role (jr asst. teapot designer) you will not get $60k if the band is 40-45. If they offer you a Sr Teapot Designer role, you should expect commensurate salary.

      I run product and marketing and have this happen a lot. We’ll open a product manager role and end up hiring it as a senior product manager because we find someone with really great skills/experience that warrant me finding more budget money to get them. But I can’t hire them in without a senior title or it messes with pay bands. Nor is it fair to them given their experience.

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        Great point. The company is “flat” so I think I’d have different project managers from the team but there’s not a formal hierarchy. As I think about it more I do think 60k is too high. The VP I interviewed with seemed to imply they’d consider my experience and what I’d bring to the company if they extend an offer rather than pigeonholing me into that tentative salary band.

        1. Serious Pillowfight*

          Posted too soon. Meant to add, So I’ll wait to see what they offer me if they decide to extend an offer. They may very well offer a bit more than their initial range.

    7. seller of teapots*

      FWIW, in my current role, they were looking for someone more junior. I have 8 years of experience and we really clicked and they ended up paying me $30k than the salary they’d planned on.

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        How did you broach the topic? Or did they offer you more right off the bat?

  10. Mutton Lettuce Tomato*

    What is the best way to ensure skill redundancy in a small company? I am in charge of all of the administrative aspects of the company and I have an assistant. It’s become clear that my boss expects her to be able to step into my role at any given time, which came up when I took a three-day vacation and he was concerned that she wasn’t able to do everything in my absence.

    Currently, I give her many of the day-to-day tasks to handle but there are some things I only do once a month or just once a year. Honestly, every time those things come up it’s a re-learning experience for me too but I have more experience with this company and the industry than she does, so I think it’s a little easier for me to pick it back up. Because it’s a small company, the work varies widely from one day to the next and there are still things cropping up for the first time that we haven’t covered. Plus some tasks are so crucial that I hesitate to give them to her since I know I’ll wind up scrutinizing and reviewing her work, which usually takes longer than doing the task myself. It doesn’t help that there’s an expectation of perfection from my boss and, ultimately, all responsibility falls on me. If something is wrong because my assistant messed up I get the blame. It makes me hesitant to give her any of the “big” tasks and I spend at least 50% of my time reviewing her work to make sure there aren’t any mistakes. She’s human so makes the occasional error, which I understand, but I also understand that it’s unacceptable to my boss so I have to stay on top of everything. Sometimes it’s easier just to do things myself, which I know isn’t helpful in terms of redundancy.

    She has been trained on almost everything I do, albeit 10 months ago, and I keep extensive notes on how to do tasks but I know it’s hard to jump back into doing something if you haven’t worked on it in months. I also have the niggling thought that if I give her more work to keep her current on everything then what am I supposed to do with my time? Aside from reviewing her work and the few tasks I’ve held onto, I don’t have much else to do other than staying on top of the organizational aspects of the job. (Perhaps a question for another day is how to mention to my boss that it seems like we don’t have enough work for three office staff members without talking myself out of a job, but I don’t want to delve into that now.) Any tips on the skill redundancy issue?

    1. gecko*

      More than anything I think you’ve gotta train your boss that your assistant isn’t going to be perfectly redundant & there’s always going to be some rev-up time, and come up with procedures for prepping for time away.

      1. Mutton Lettuce Tomato*

        I’m leaning towards thinking what he wants is impossible, but I figured I’d ask here in case I’m missing something. I tried to prep her for what I knew would come in while I was away but it’s impossible to know what’s going to come up on any given day. To me it makes sense that there are things she won’t feel comfortable doing that can wait a few days until I return and maybe that’s something I’ll just have to tell him. I basically stepped into this role with minimal training and it was very much a sink or swim situation so I suppose if I were to drop dead tomorrow she’d just have to do the same thing. I’d like to minimize the surprises for her but it seems unreasonable that she’ll be familiar with everything.

        1. N Twello*

          I write a Disaster Recovery Plan for my job. This can be on a wiki or in a Word document, or whatever. I outline my main tasks and for each one I write a process of how to do it. That way if I get hit by a bus or quit, someone can handle my key tasks. I use lots of screenshots so that someone unfamiliar with my software can pick it up. I also include all passwords, schedules, emails and URLs they’ll need to know.

          This might seem like a lot of work but I do it a bit at a time. While writing out a process I think about ways to streamline it.

    2. DaniCalifornia*

      I’m unsure if I can provide any help about skill redundancy but I am all for cross training and others knowing how to do different jobs. I think it’s absolutely necessary because I’ve been in several instances where one person was out, an emergency happened, and things either went smoothly because we were cross trained or they went horrible because no one knew what to do.

      “Sometimes it’s easier just to do things myself, which I know isn’t helpful in terms of redundancy.”
      My supervisor is this way. I completely understand why because she is very busy. I’ve begged to be taught new things during our slower months but she never has the time. And there is no one else to teach me. I try to act independently to help her out and I know she is appreciative when I do something that everyone else passes to her and she doesn’t feel like I added one more thing. I recently finally asked about completing a project I had done 90% of and she told me the owner didn’t want me working on that 10% part yet. It was completely frustrating to hear that. Because when my supervisor is out for the week her clients call and no one in the office can help them. Sometimes our owner asks me to do things and he seems surprised and frustrated that I can’t do them when I tell him I don’t know that part. Once or twice a client has had an emergency and I am left dealing with an angry client because they need something done now and my supervisor is on vacation. Or we have to bug her on vacation which shouldn’t even happen!

      I am so bored at work. I’ve learned nothing new in several years except what I decide to teach myself. I don’t know if your assistant is feeling the same but I would advocate that even the tasks you do monthly or once a year you could have her help in some way or go over it after you do it and with your notes. That way in the worse case and you are out unexpectedly she would have at least an inkling of what is going on trying to cover an absence. I know it takes some time to train people on new things but doesn’t it become a never ending cycle.

      1. Mutton Lettuce Tomato*

        That’s a very good point! I actually feel much the same way, bored in my job and I’d like to have more to do. So I can only imagine how my assistant might be feeling! My boss is really bad about loosening the reins so I sit here bored with nothing to do most of the day. I wish he’d give me more responsibility and tasks so I could have more to share with my assistant, but if he did I’d have even more to keep her current on. I’ll definitely try your idea of showing her things once I’ve done them since many are things only one person could work on. Just a sort of a way to review my notes with her so she’s not blindsided if she has to take over.

        1. KellyK*

          You might also look at training your assistant as an additional thing you can do to relieve boredom for both of you. If it takes her longer to do a task than you, and you still have to check it over, that’s not a problem if you’re both underutilized, right?

          1. Mutton Lettuce Tomato*

            True. I certainly don’t mind reviewing her work since it keeps me occupied. I guess I just thought I was done training her on things aside from the oddball tasks/issues that crop up. It’s more an issue of her not staying current with things she doesn’t regularly work on so she’s not comfortable doing them. Perhaps I should be regularly re-training her? Or is that condescending?

            1. Kathenus*

              Maybe reframe your thinking from regularly re-training her to delegating some of these tasks to her on a semi-regular basis so that she remains up to speed and confident in doing them. Could end up being a win-win – she gets some variation and more experience in different tasks, you get more comfortable with delegation, your boss is happy about better redundancy, and you can free up time for different projects (although I understand right now you are under-occupied so may not seem like a plus).

    3. OtterB*

      You said you have extensive notes, but that’s the only thing I can think of. Document, document, document. I’ve been working on an “administrator’s guide” to my main work task. Last year I was out for surgery during a key time period and someone else had to take the emails and help the end users. It took her more time than it would have taken me, but it got done.

      I agree that part of it is managing your boss’s expectations. Maybe you can define the “core tasks” that the backup person should absolutely be able to do, and the less-critical that she will have to look up?

      1. Anonymosity*

        Same. This is why I’m so gung ho on procedural documents. I make them for everything I do and I keep them where anybody covering for me can easily find them. I’ve gotten damn good at writing them.

      2. Jules the Third*

        Instead of extensive notes, especially for the rare things, try writing it as a procedure, step by step of what needs to happen. Every time you do it, do it by following the procedure, and if you find that a step is incomplete or changed, change it there. Have the assistant do some of these with you, so that she’s familiar with how you write procedures – it will help her read procedures when you’re not around.
        Supplies needed: Peanut butter (PB), bread, jelly, knife, spoon, plate
        Put 2 slices of bread on plate, next to each other
        Use knife to spread a tablespoon of PB on each piece of bread.
        – make sure you spread it all the way to the sides
        – you can use a little more or less PB according to your taste

        and so on. For office procedures, writing it down and letting someone else walk through the doc is pretty much the gold standard for training.

        1. Mutton Lettuce Tomato*

          Oh yes, by “notes” I meant step-by-step procedures. The training I received when I took this role was so minimal and vaguely big picture that the first thing I did was start writing up instructions whenever I did a task. I followed the same steps you described, following my own instructions to see if they work, and now have procedures I’m confident will work for anyone. I wished my predecessor had left me procedures like this so I made it a priority to put together something for whoever comes after me. I think in this most recent instance when I went on vacation, my assistant (rightfully) identified things she wasn’t confident with doing that could easily wait a few days. Whereas my boss saw a stack of papers waiting for me on my desk and wondered why she couldn’t take care of everything in my absence. It’s something I plan to talk with her about, to see what areas she’s not so confident in. But beyond that I don’t know what else to do to prepare her for the unexpected.

    4. WellRed*

      Your boss is being a bit unreasonable. Some times things have to wait. Also, does he really find any mistakes “unacceptable?” If he does, see again, unreasonable and possibly shades of “your boss is an ass.”

      1. Mutton Lettuce Tomato*

        Believe me, this is not the first sign that he’s a bit unreasonable. There are several things nudging me in the direction of job searching, but the worst was when he confronted me as soon as I came in one morning to yell at me for not paying a particular invoice. An invoice that must have gotten lost in the mail because it never came across my desk. An invoice that I would have had no way of knowing existed. Yet somehow that was “unacceptable” and showed that he couldn’t trust me to do my job. He wound up apologizing for that but it definitely got me thinking about moving on.

  11. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    I’m extraordinarily cranky today.

    Which is not helped by the two coworkers behind me who are ridiculously noisy and obnoxious. The one talks in a baby voice and narrates everything she does. The other whistles/hums/sings incessantly and shares his inner monologue with us. And since I am one of the ones who has to answer the main phone line, headphones are not an option for me.

    Grrrrrrrr

    1. saffytaffy*

      That narration thing is pathological, don’t you think? I try my hardest to just feel sorry for people who do such anti-social things, because everybody must hate them.
      But I’m so sorry you’re cranky. I hope you do something nice for yourself today.

        1. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

          Ugh, I have the allergy crankies myself so I feel for ya. Thank God I sit all by myself in the lobby, or I would be feeling the same way as you. Hope your day improves, it’s Friday!

        2. Julia*

          Misophonia is so hard, mostly because people with less sensitive ears think we’re drama queens. No, you’re all too loud! >.<
          I find that mine is the worst when I'm tired and stressed, so could you maybe work on that angle long-term? Easier said than done, I know…

          1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

            I’m usually alright. I know what the worst sounds are for me (after carefully paying attention to what made me want to stick a fork in my eye). Unfortunately, there’s less other noise in the office today to drown them out so they ROARING through loud and clear.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Does the Narrator narrate in baby voice??? Because that’s frickin’ annoying. I mean my 3 year old daughter narrates everything she does in toddler voice, but she’s 3 so it’s cute most of the time (and her stories are wildly imaginative and entertaining, which I’m sure your coworker’s are not).

      This is a plea to all working-age people everywhere – BABY TALK DOES NOT BELONG IN THE WORKPLACE!!!!! (unless you work with actual babies or animals)

        2. WellRed*

          Have you ever just flat out asked her why she talks like a baby? I’d be really curious in the answer (if there even is one).

        3. AnitaJ*

          OH MY GOD THAT’S AWFUL I AM SO SORRY YOU ARE DEALING WITH THAT.

          Baby talk is just. The worst. My old coworker would literally ask “Are you getting a sawad for lunch? Suh-suh-suh-saaaawad?”

          WHAT. THE. HELL.

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              I made plans to go alone because no one replied when I asked about it. BUT then last night, a friend did get in touch and ask about meeting me.

    4. Emily S.*

      Ooh, TGIF.
      Sending calm, chill, pleasant vibes your way.

      Have you ever tried controlled breathing exercises? They can be useful for anxiety, and mentally escaping (related to mindfulness meditation – I’m not super-familiar with it, but have practiced some of both, and have found it useful, especially under stress). When I meditate, I find it helpful to visualize either a calm ocean scene, or sometimes I use a calm forest scene. It can be quite relaxing, as long as you aren’t at risk of falling asleep (and as long as it’s ok to close your eyes briefly). Even 5 minutes can make a big difference in how I feel.

    5. miyeritari*

      I have to answer the phone, but I’ve set the cordless phone right under my monitor and in front of it so even if i have my music turned all the way up, I see the screen light up. Is that an option for you?

        1. tangerineRose*

          Seems like they’re more concerned about looks than sound. Why aren’t they cracking down on the noisy people?

    6. The Commoner*

      I’m quite sure I have misophonia and feel for you right now.

      Nothing is worse than those totally unnecessary behaviors of others that derail your focus.

    7. June*

      Could you ask them to lower their voices so you can hear the phone? I know you can hear the phone just fine but do they know that? wink, wink…

  12. Jacky*

    I biked to work for the first time ever today! My work environment is not super-formal – business casual maybe. There’s a one-person locking bathroom near my workspace, so I could change in there before the day really started. Does anyone who bikes to work have suggestions or best practices for transitioning to and from sweaty-biking-self/presentable-work-self?

    1. pleaset*

      A. Ride slower.
      B. Assuming you are changing clothes upon arrival, don’t change immediately. Give yourself few moments to cool down. Otherwise, you’ll still be sweating into your other clothes.

      A shower is great if possible – some people go to a gym near work to change/shower. This adds quite a bit of logistical complexity.

      1. SWOinRecovery*

        Along with “ride slower”–consider walking your bike up any steep inclines. Yes, you have to factor in extra time for your commute, but you won’t be as sweaty.
        If you aren’t already, use a bike rack to carry your bag. Biking with a backpack on always increases my back sweat and back pain.

    2. Construction Safety*

      Baby wipes.
      Try to factor in some cool down time before you change.
      Pack your bag the night before to help ensure you don’t forget anything.

    3. SWOinRecovery*

      If you can’t shower, baby powder and gold bond do wonders for freshening up.

      1. Yorick*

        There’s a gold bond spray that works well. I also like to freshen up with a spray deodorant.

    5. BuffaLove*

      I don’t bike, but I do run at lunch occasionally, so I feel like the general idea is the same. A one-person bathroom is great. I’d strip down and air out for a minute – make sure you’re totally dry before you put your work clothes on. Baby wipes are great if you just need a quick, targeted wipe-down. I always do an extra layer of deodorant, just in case. Dry shampoo is great, too, but you might have to experiment since some work well and some are kind of gross, IME.

      If there’s someone you’re close enough with, I would think about having them stand a couple feet away from you, just to make 100 percent sure there’s no lingering odor. Whenever people talk about bike or run commuting, there’s always one person who pipes up and says that their coworker does it and smells (or leaves sweaty clothes somewhere where others can smell them). Nobody wants to be that guy, so it’s better safe than sorry!

    6. Emily S.*

      Hi Jacky,

      I don’t currently commute by bike, but I’m going to share some links with tips for bike commuting in general. They may be helpful.

      Good luck, and be safe out there! Roads can be extremely dangerous for cyclists, even if you have all the right gear, so be careful.

      – Top 10 Tips for First-Time Bicycle Commuters
      https://momentummag.com/top-10-tips-for-first-time-bicycle-commuters/

      – 14 Commuter Pros Share Their Secrets
      https://www.bicycling.com/news/a20031666/14-commuter-pros-share-their-secrets/

      – Bike Commuting 101
      https://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/bike-commuting-101/

    7. Ann Furthermore*

      Hopefully riding in the mornings when it’s cooler will help. But if not, bring a washcloth, wet it with cooler water, and then fold it up and place it on the back of your neck for a little while. My hairdresser did this for me last week. I walked to my hair appointment from the train, which took about 25 minutes. It was very hot outside, so I was a bit of a mess when I got there. I was amazed at how quickly that trick helped me cool down.

      1. Natalie*

        Putting a cool cloth or paper towel on the inside of your wrists is another good method. I’ve used it to cool down before summer job interviews.

    8. Tau*

      I will honestly admit I’ve never changed after cycling to work, don’t know anyone who changes after cycling to work, and am always puzzled that this seems to be such a thing when people talk about it online. (US-European summer temperature differences? Longer distances involved? I’ve got nothing.)

      So, uh. I’ve cycled everywhere since the age of twelve, but wear your regular work clothes and ride a bit slower so you don’t sweat that much is all I’ve got, sorry.

      1. Natalie*

        My guess is distances plus type of bicycle. The European-style city bike or hybrid bike isn’t as popular in the United States (because we’re so often going longer distances). A lot of people are biking to work on a racing-style road bike, which makes it harder to wear regular clothes and shoes.

        1. Tau*

          I did wonder about racing bikes, come to think of it. My dad cycles to work and doesn’t change, but sometimes he’ll head out on his racing bike on a weekend and will generally make a beeline for the shower as soon as he gets back. That might explain part of it.

          I do find there’s an interesting cultural difference between Germany and much of the UK, and I’m guessing even stronger between Germany and the US, where in one place the bicycle is primarily seen as a way to get from A to B and in the other it’s primarily seen as a way to get exercise. Obviously simplified, but this is the definite impression I’ve come away with, and the “to change or not to change?” discussion might play into that.

          1. An Elephant Never Baguettes*

            My hostmom in the US used to say “In Germany, you ride your bike to go places. In the US we go places to ride our bikes.” and it was so accurate for the way people in the suburbs in the South used their bikes, it’s stuck with me even more than 10 years later.

      2. Yorick*

        It’s also extremely hot in some parts of the US. I need to freshen up like this after just a short walk from the bus stop.

      3. Amaryllis*

        Also humidity. It’s currently 28 C with 65% humidity where I am. That’s like biking in soup.

      4. Raine*

        I’m guessing temperature differences, longer commutes, and humidity all play a factor. People up north I’ve noticed tend to wear work clothing, but down south you’re not biking anywhere from late May to September without a case of swamp everything. Heat means you sweat, humid means it doesn’t dry. I wouldn’t subject my nice clothing to that.

        1. Tau*

          That’s very fair. I guess the reason I didn’t jump immediately to the climate difference is that a) I don’t usually see the “you have to change!” stuff mentioning seasons (but I guess a lot of people don’t cycle in winter) and b) I’ve also seen it in the UK, which is on average cooler in the summer than Germany.

    9. yet another Kat*

      I don’t bike but have dealt with similar logistics. Dry shampoo is great, I suggest putting some in before your ride, it’ll soak up the sweat as it occurs. Also, Sephora makes exfoliating wipes that have a rough side and smooth side – they’re pretty great for fully cleansing face/neck/chest area of sweat!

    10. sleepwakehopeandthen*

      I bike slowly and early in the morning on days it is supposed to be super hot so I am mostly presentable when I come to work. Sometimes on the hottest days I change–but that is mostly so I can bike in shorts on those days when it is too hot to bike in pants. Bike bags over a backpack significantly improved my commute.

  13. JustaCPA*

    My boss’s mother passed away this week while he was out of town. He’s fairly private and I only know about it because of my position. Would it be inappropriate to send him a sympathy card to his home address? Im going to assume having anyone at work sign it would be a definate breach of privacy…

    1. Nervous accountant*

      I personally don’t think it would be inappropriate. I know I would have found it comforting if my coworkers did that for me, but I’m not a very private person. He doesn’t seem like he would appreciate too much attn t it, so a card and/or message from you alone would be nice I think.

    2. Technical_Kitty*

      I would just leave it on his desk unless its common to send things to him home.

    3. Laura*

      Or leave it on his desk. Does he know you know? If so, I think it’s better to acknowledge it than not. It’s an easy time for feeling to be hurt, and it’s better to error on the side of expressing sympathy than having him think you don’t care.

    4. AnotherJill*

      I don’t quite understand what you mean by “having anyone at work sign it would be a definate breach of privacy”. Are you saying that no one else knows? If someone is that private, I would just tell them in person that I was sad to hear the news of his mother. If I did a card, I would send it through company mail, not his home address.

    5. WellRed*

      When my dad died, I got several cards at home from coworkers (And, I really don’t think sympathy cards are something to be passed around for everyone to sign like a birthday card, but that’s probably just me). I also came back to one or two on my desk. Both options were fine.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I totally agree that sympathy cards are not to be passed around! But I think coworkers think it’s weird when I say I’m going to get one “from the team.”

      2. Anonymosity*

        In smaller offices, passing them around is most definitely a thing, but everyone usually knows everyone else so it’s less weird.

    6. Anonymous Poster*

      Leave it on his desk in a place he’ll find it, but where it isn’t immediately visible to anyone walking by. He’ll appreciate the gesture, but unless you have his home address for other reasons, that’s a bit odd.

    7. Emily S.*

      I’m joining others to say: do write a nice card, and either leave it in his in-box, or on his desk.

      I think sending it to his home isn’t the best way to go, since this is a work relationship, and you also mentioned he’s a private person.

    8. JustaCPA*

      I’m one of two people who know. Since my position includes HR, I also have his home address. I could leave it on his desk I guess but I was thinking that it might make him emotional at work whereas if he received it at home, he would be in private to react. (just to clarify, not saying the CARD would be emotional but I know grief can be wild and woolly and sucker punch you when you’re not expecting it)

      1. JessicaTate*

        I think you’re spot-on. If you know his home address, I’d mail it. I’m really private, and when I’ve had to come back to work after a death in the family, I didn’t want anyone to bring it up at work. I just wanted to be at work and be normal. At home, it had been nice to know my close colleague cared (and where I could be sad/cry in peace). But the greatest thing anyone could do at work was be normal to me. Don’t be extra-nice.

        1. Emily S.*

          Considering this, I think you’re probably right. At first I thought sending it to his home might seem odd, but Jessica, these are good points, and now I see where you’re coming from.

      2. Bagpuss*

        I wouldn’t. As HR you know, but you have that information for work purposes, not personal ones. If you think it may make him emotional then give it to him at the end of the day.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Yes, mail it to his home. I have had upper bosses do that for me, it’s thoughtful without being over the top.
        Just get something simple that says “so very sorry” and sign your full name. (Because bereaved people do not always recognize the first name by itself.)

  14. Samvi*

    The responses to yesterday’s question about work-related meals has left me feeling rather discouraged, as I’ve been working towards a career change and have been targeting academia specifically. I have dietary requirements that mean that I cannot eat at almost all restaurants and need to provide my own food. (I’m not interested in discussing this any further—please just take me at my word.) I am really, really ok with this and am perfectly happy to take care of my own food needs.

    However, if this is really such an important thing in academia, for both faculty and staff, then realistically I might have to reconsider my plans. Contrary to what some of the comments asserted, this is very far from a universal requirement in professional environments. I’ve been working for more than two decades in different industries and have never had to do an interview meal. Although I don’t doubt that some people have thought it strange that I never join work-related meals, it has never to my knowledge been held against me either.

    So, my question is this: what are some industries where it would be either extremely uncommon for work-related meals to be an expectation or not a dealbreaker for someone like me who is simply not able to take part in any way? Also, since cultural fit is so important: I can’t do overnight travel either, so that would be helpful to know. I really wish these sorts of things were more common knowledge.

    1. Ali G*

      IDK about Academia, but in every job I have ever had, overnight travel is expected. So that would be something you need to consider.
      For the lunch thing – we also typically do lunch for interviews because the person interviewing is usually with us for an entire day so they can interview with the team, HR, etc., so it’s only fair that we feed them :)
      In that case though, I don’t see any reason why you can’t be upfront and say “I have some pretty severe food restrictions that make it almost impossible for me to eat out. I am more than happy to bring my own lunch, so we can eat together. Would it be possible to stay in the office for lunch and eat as group there in stead of going to a restaurant?”
      So you are not declining the social part, only the location. I think any normal person would agree to this (just know they will probably order food in for themselves, so if there are really bad issues, like you can’t even be in the same room with peanuts or something, make sure you let them know that too).

      1. Cloud 9 Sandra*

        I’ve had a number of jobs in a number of fields; I’ve only had overnight travel required once in the last 24 years. It hasn’t been a requirement in my current or last four jobs. I do admin work currently in financial services, previously in healthcare and non-profit worlds.

        1. Solidus Pilcrow*

          Travel requirements are going to vary wildly from employer to employer, pretty much regardless of industry. My previous job, no travel in 10+ years. Current job, I’m traveling 1-2 times per quarter (all domestic US, 4 days or less, but still travel).

          If your employer only has one location and doesn’t do things like conferences, trade shows, off site training, etc, then you probably won’t have to travel. I didn’t travel much at first in my current job either, as my scope of responsibilities was limited to my location; then they re-org’d and changed my scope to items of a certain type, some of which are produced only at other sites.

    2. Murphy*

      I’m university staff (in a non academic department) and work-related meals wouldn’t be an issue in my role. I’ve had many meetings/events where lunch is provided, but if I’d had to bring my own instead, it wouldn’t have been a big deal. I think as long as you’re willing to sit at the table (and likely field some questions about diet because unfortunately people can be nosey) it wouldn’t be a big deal in a lot of fields.

      1. Jennifer*

        Seconded, I could probably count on one hand the number of times we’ve had meals in a restaurant in my whole time here.

      2. GRA*

        Thirded (?) – the only time I’ve had official meals out working at a college/university was during my interview process or if I’m serving on a search committee and it’s another person’s interview.

    3. A Beth*

      I work in higher ed and very rarely have meal-based events and the only overnight travel I’ve ever done was for an optional conference. I would think it depends more on the position than the industry.

      1. Blank*

        Yeah, most work meals I’ve had in university contexts are either buffets (super easy to eat your own food) or optional.

    4. anonanonanon*

      I can’t speak to academia, but I would definitely avoid the consulting world. I work in public policy research, but we work with outside agencies. Meals, grabbing drinks, and overnight travel is very much the norm.

    5. AnotherJill*

      I was in academia for several years. No one had any issues with someone who had food restrictions. Consider that a school or university caters to anywhere from hundreds to thousands of individuals, many of whom have specialized food needs. Overnight travel was primarily to conferences, and I never encountered anyone who was mistreated due to dietary restrictions.

      1. Thursday Next*

        I think in academia people would be more understanding of food restrictions than in other fields. Between, faculty, staff, and students, we’re talking about a large and diverse population with a variety of needs.

    6. Cousin Itt*

      Don’t discount a career you’re interested in just because it involves the occasional lunch! I think most people would be fine with you explaining that you have dietary restrictions that require you to eat food you’ve prepared and then do just that.

      Not sure if your restrictions prohibit you from even being near food you can’t eat, but if they don’t most restaurants won’t mind you bringing your own food so long as you’re there as part of a group and you’re not sat there eating takeaway from a competitor.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        I’ve found that a lot of restaurants *will* prohibit outside food other than baby food (even for food-restriction reasons), so in this case I would definitely check before hand, and be prepared to have a glass of water and eat later/earlier.

        I’m in academia, and it would generally not cause problems if someone said that they had complicated food restrictions and couldn’t eat out. The travel thing would be more problematic – in my field, a short-term travel restriction (health or family reasons, say), would be worked around, but in the long term, an inability to travel overnight would have significant professional repercussions, because you wouldn’t be presenting at conferences, attending project meetings or meeting collaborators, and in some cases it would restrict your ability to obtain data.

    7. A Nickname for AAM*

      My husband is a professor, and in his hiring process, he had to do a good bit of overnight travel. He had six interviews consisting of a 1-2 night stay in a hotel, plus flying. He also has to travel to conferences about twice a year, for 4 or so nights each. People senior to him probably have to travel 4-5 times a year, for a few nights each. It’s not a big deal in general, but if you don’t travel at all, it would probably be tough on you.

    8. Cheesecake 2.0*

      I’m a project manager in academia and have at least 4 trips coming up this year, possibly more. It really depends what part of academia you are in. Financial people/student support staff/non-research folks rarely travel for work, I would say.

    9. Rosie M. Banks*

      I’m an academic and have twice been the chair of search committees. When I spoke to candidates about an on-campus visit, I usually asked something like, “As we schedule lunches and dinners, is there anything we should know about your dietary preferences?” That way, if someone is vegan or keeps kosher or something, we could try to accommodate them.
      An inability to do overnight travel might be a bigger problem. I don’t know what kind of job you are looking for in academia, but (from the position of a faculty member) not only would this make an on-campus interview difficult, since people routinely apply for jobs in different states, but it would suggest that you will never go to conferences, which would be a red flag for us in terms of worrying about your research output.
      All of this assumes that you are thinking about a faculty or administrative position. If you are thinking of a staff position, I don’t know enough about their hiring practices to advise you.

    10. BuffaLove*

      I think this must vary so much. I’m in state government, and we do extremely limited travel (because there’s no money for it). Personally, I do a lot of day trips, but I eat on my own since I can’t let my “clients” pay for my lunches. We do occasional team lunches at the office, but again, on a very limited basis, since the money is coming out of our own pockets.

    11. Dalia524*

      I work at a university, and there is food provided at almost every event. I have celiac disease, so I can’t really eat most of the”go-tos” for catering. I also have to be very careful with potlucks, etc. I’ve never had an issue with bringing my own food besides the occasional question why. Universities try to be very inclusive, so you’re unlikely to get any pushback. We occasionally take prospective PhD students out for lunch, but we would definitely nix that or be flexible if they said so. I’ve never had to even sit down at a group meal I didn’t want to participate in, even at overnight conferences.

      My only suggestion is if you get a position, and IF you feel comfortable sharing info with your coworkers, and IF you actually want to go out to lunch with them, you could scope around to see if there’s a restaurant a 10-15 minute drive away that caters to your dietary requirements. I have 2-3 restaurants close by that work for me, so I can pop in a couple easy suggestions if we’re trying to do a group lunch. Otherwise I just suggest the cafeteria where I can eat my bagged lunch.

    12. Logan*

      In my experience, people in these situations are often keen to go ‘out’ for lunches because it is a reason for them to have a free meal. I used to work with a contractor who would take a few of us out on occasion because then he could expense it to the company. So it’s a known perk, and is happily offered, but people would be quite understanding if someone said “For health reasons I have to provide my own meal. Can we meet at a lunch room or does the building have a cafeteria?” (many larger places have cafeterias where people can bring in their own lunches).

      I work with someone who has similar dietary restrictions, and when they travel they book suites with at minimum a fridge and microwave. It hasn’t been a problem.

    13. Anonymous Poster*

      I work in a technical field, and overnight travel/meals are part of the deal when interviewing. That said, they’d work with you if you cannot do these things, but there will be a push to accommodate your needs while still doing the travel or meal. Absolutely not being able to do overnight travel can be a problem because occasionally the job simply requires it, so regardless of anything else going on, it’s an essential duty of the job.

    14. Cowgirl in hiding*

      We had someone we were interviewing that when taken to lunch just had water. It was okay. We still offered him the job, even if he only had water at our lunch meeting.

    15. Zennish*

      I’ve been through a couple of academic job interviews, and “the lunch” was part of all of them. It’s very much where they size you up for cultural fit, temperament, and that sort of thing.

    16. Admin of Sys*

      Well, re: Academia – it does depend on /what/ you’re doing in the academic world. (note: this is mostly from the staff perspective, since I’m not an educator). The higher up you go, the more likely you are to need to network over meals, and certainly if you’re in HR or any funding or student affairs, you’re likely to need to work around shared meal times. But I was at a university for 10 years in IT and had required ‘go to lunch with someone’…maybe twice? We had a lot of ‘be at catered meetings’ but we had alternate menus for a lot of folks, and some people just would bring their own food or skip eating entirely. It’d be considered odd if folks left the room during the meal, but absolutely fine if people stayed and just didn’t have whatever was being offered. (I mean, folks may comment on it, but ‘medication’, ‘food restrictions’, ‘allergies’, or ‘diet’ were all easily accepted answers)
      Travel is a bit harder to wrangle – I’ve gone on very few trips, but they’ve been pretty mandatory. That said, I’ve had far less need to travel in academia than i did at corporate.

    17. Malloy*

      In academia, there’s often a lot of social eating. But framed correctly it can be done on campus- you could BYO meal to a campus location where others buy- as long as you don’t have contact allergies etc that prohibit being in a shared food space.

    18. anonymous IT PM*

      I used to be academic IT staff at a small liberal arts college. All of our interviews (including for desktop support techs) included lunch to see how candidates acted in a more casual conversation setting– e.g. can you converse with other humans without saying wildly inappropriate things, and can you deal with talking to our quirky and entitled faculty (a few of whom will be at lunch with you)? There are definitely other ways to do this and some bosses would have chosen to deploy them if a candidate mentioned these kinds of dietary restrictions. Others would not have, unfortunately.
      I think this kind of approach may be less common at larger or state schools that tend to have stricter rules about paying for food. New job is in a large university health system and there was no interview food.

    19. spock*

      Never worked in academia, but at my industry job, we take candidates out to lunch but if they have dietary restrictions it would absolutely not be a problem and we’d find a way to make it work for them, be that ordering from somewhere they approve of or making sure they have somewhere to store their own food ahead of time.

    20. NW Mossy*

      My brother-in-law is in a similar boat to you – a combination of severe, category-spanning food allergies and a sleep disorder mean that travel and dining out are big challenges for him. He’s a physician (hospital setting), and it was definitely something he’s had to work around, especially when interviewing because there’s a certain amount of candidate wining-and-dining that goes on in medicine.

      What’s helped him the most is to be very matter-of-fact about what works for him and what doesn’t. If someone wants to take him out for a meal, he’ll set the expectation that he can’t eat the food but is happy to participate without eating or offer a suggestion of something that would work (such as a catered lunch where bringing his own meal is no big deal). How organizations respond can vary, and it’s often useful signaling behavior as to whether or not the place is a fit – the one that says “oh, sure, just let us know what works best for you!” is a winner, and the one that says “surely you can just bring an Epi-Pen!” is not.

      I’ll also throw out back-office operations in financial services as a good situation for those who can’t dine out or travel. I’ve only had to travel for work twice in fifteen years, and an optional meal out happens maybe once a year at most.

      And finally, you may also consider that the part of the country where you are can influence things just as much as the industry. Here in the NW, basically any group of more than 3 people will probably have someone with dietary restrictions in it, so most people will be understanding of the fact that not everyone can eat the same way and that we need to be non-judgmental about what others do in that area.

    21. MissDisplaced*

      I work in communications, and have worked in several very different industries, including academia.
      I’ve never had a lunch interview!

      I have gone to plenty of work meals, either while traveling or with clients, managers, vendors, or even while in the office (working lunch meetings). If it’s with coworkers, I’d say you could excuse yourself just fine, but for a client meal you might still have to go to the restaurant and either take your own food, and/or just not eat until later (though that might mean disclosing something you might not want to disclose).
      Overnight travel is pretty much a given at SOME point for a lot of jobs, though may not be frequent (such as 1 or 2 trips per year). You wouldn’t think a marcomm person would travel much, but at my last couple of jobs, it’s been several times a year (client sites, meetings, training, seminars, management retreats, photo shoots, trade shows). Who knew?

      That said, stay away from heavy client facing positions that require travel+meals: Sales, business development, advertising, consulting, PR, operations, logistics, photography/video production, supply chain, training, recruiting, and even some marketing jobs. I also found that the higher people go (director level and above) in ANY field, the more they tend to travel.

      I’m not sure what jobs are safe bets with like NO TRAVEL EVER: In my experience these tended to be entry-level when I was just starting out. But even then it’s possible to be sent to training or other company locations. I think there are some science fields where the researchers rarely come out of their labs (LOL!) and coders/programmers can work anywhere so don’t often travel. Probably nursing and hospital/medical workers would be pretty stay-put, along with local non-profits and city/state governments. Admins don’t seem to travel much either, as it tends to be their job to ‘hold down the fort’ so to speak. Ditto for call-heavy support. Also, small companies = no travel (no budget!). I’m sure there are many others… I’m just thinking about what I’ve seen or experienced.

      Not sure about academia as I wasn’t in it long enough. But I did attend an overnight conference.

      Is “no travel” a dealbreaker? I think the meals are much easier to avoid than no travel ever.

    22. Jingle*

      Another academic here, also chiming in to say that not being able to go out to eat would be no problem at all in my area. I’ve never had a meal-based interview, and having dietary restrictions or needing to bring your own food to events is no big deal (almost common). Not wanting to travel would be a bigger issue in my area, as the nature of my research means I need to travel a lot, let alone present at conferences, but I do have a couple of more junior staff who don’t wish to travel (due to young kids) & I accomodate this as much as possible (although from recollection, both have done 1-2 overnight trips over the last 12 months; it’s hard for us to avoid it completely). It varies enormously by field and type of job though, and I wouldn’t rule out finding a niche that meets your needs without exploring further.

    23. Girl friday*

      I’ve worked in restaurants for years and also in academia :) and I really think if you wanted to still try it, it could work for you. I spent years just going to faculty meals and having wine and salad or wine, water and bread for both financial and dietary reasons. Overnight travel is common in universities though, and even working from home, which would have been my other suggestion, also requires it. I’m going to keep reading and see if you’ve addressed why overnight travel affects the cultural fit. Some things you don’t have to mention on application or interview, like the meal needs and some you do. Maybe asking for accommodations would work for you, such as being able to bring a companion?

  15. Anon for This*

    The question earlier this week about dating the boss’s daughter reminded me of my own related experience. I dated my mom’s boss’s daughter. If I recall correctly, our moms actually suggested it! It only lasted for two months because I returned to grad school, but she was my first kiss and I always think fondly of her and the experience.

    My mom later moved on to another job, but I’ve been assured it had nothing to do with my dating her boss’s daughter.

  16. Long time lurker*

    Tl;dr: I’m being pressured to socialize after hours when everyone knows I don’t want to.

    Everything that follows took place in a light-hearted, sort of joking conversation. Everyone was all smiles.

    My manager (Jon) mentioned to our team (Sansa, Arya, Bran, and myself) the idea of going out to do something fun as a team after hours. I don’t have any interest in hanging out with coworkers after hours, but I figured I could go with a casual “sorry I’m busy” once something was actually planned.

    Then Jon said I would plan it. Bran said to me, “then you have to show up”, to which my manager replied, “exactly.” Bran was oblivious of my disinclination to hang out when he made his joke. Jon’s attempt to get me to show up when he knew I wouldn’t want to was intentional.

    I didn’t really say anything, the conversation moved on, then it came back round. Jon told me to pick an activity and send prices and possible dates to the team. I replied, “Don’t hold your breath.” Jon then said that he would do it, since I refused. Sansa replied, “but she didn’t refuse” (an innocent comment on her end) and Jon went back to telling me to send out an email. I said, “thanks a lot Sansa”. Everyone laughed and when my manager started talking about the email again, I said, “I *do* refuse” in a light-hearted tone (at least I hope it was).

    Bran said, “but LTL, I thought you wanted to do X?” (X being an activity that was mentioned in this conversation- in a prior conversation with Bran, I had mentioned interest in passing). I tried to cover by saying that I might enjoy it but I’ve never done it before. I think he was a little sad at the idea that I wouldn’t want to spend time with the team outside of work.

    What do I do when this inevitably comes up again? I’m heavily leaning on the side of sticking to my guns, but I’d be lying if I said pushing back doesn’t make me feel awful. It doesn’t help that I have insecurities around being “too introverted” and my unwillingness to suck it up for an evening feels like some sort of moral failing.

    Are there better phrases for pushing back? Tips for limiting the emotional exhaustion of the situation? Or is just going really the only feasible option here?

    Note: I won’t get dinged in a review or fired for not going.

    If you read all of this through, bless your soul.

    1. Peaches*

      Ugh. I don’t have any advice, just sympathies. I really dislike after hour get together events (not because I don’t like my coworkers; I do!) BUT, I strongly prefer to separate work and personal life. I need my time after work to unplug. It feels like you have to be “on” when you’re out with coworkers, even if it is out of the office.

      1. irene adler*

        Same sentiments here.
        Can your event be attending a movie or a local play- something that doesn’t require much interaction with the co-workers during the event (hoping they know to dummy up during the movie/play)? Or attending a special exhibit at a museum?

    2. SpiderLadyCEO*

      Firstly: forcing you to plan the outing just so that you would join them is a sort of nasty thing for them to do. It’s just mean-spirited, IMO.

      But honestly, I think you are going to need to do something with them, in part to calm everyone down, and to satisfy their itch that you join them for an outing. It will also likely make work relations easier. If they’re still expecting you to plan the outing, then pick something relatively short and low-key, so you can go and be done. If they’re planning the outing, then just plan on going, sticking around for the duration of the event (or an hour or so, if it’s drinks and you can just…leave) and then going home.

      It sounds like this outing is a really important part of your office, and it will be better in the long run to just suffer through it.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Slightly different take–they believe the reason that she didn’t show up at the other events is because she dislikes the specific activity chosen, not because she doesn’t want to do anything with them outside of work. So by having her choose the activity, they solved it!

        I tend to agree with SpiderLady, though, that you might want to grit your teeth and endure a couple of hours of bonding in the name of office amity. Is this weekly, monthly, quarterly?

    3. Seriously?*

      I think refusing to ever participate in after work events sounds like it will come across as antisocial at your work place. I think you do need to try to participate occasionally. It might work in your favor that they want you to take point because then you can pick whatever activity you find the most tolerable. It sounds like your boss views this as a teambuilding/bonding type of event.

      1. Gotham Bus Company*

        If afterwork activities become mandatory, then they should be paid (for employees who qualify for paid overtime).

    4. MissGirl*

      Sounds like this is starting to become a thing. I honestly think you should go to the least stressful activity, get some face time, and then leave quietly. I say this as someone who deals with a degree if social anxiety and introvertedness. I try to look at the occasional one as part of the job.

    5. Technical_Kitty*

      Get comfortable with your own introverted tendencies. Being an introvert is not a bad thing, I have to make sure my social time is calibrated for best impact. If this is something you want to do but is difficult, is there something that assists you in getting into the social mindset? I recently found that listening to a podcast (And That’s Why We Drink) really helps me be more social. It’s not the podcast topic (true crime/paranormal), it’s the listening to two friends and feeling a little included in the conversation but not required to interact. It’s odd but this helps me so much sometimes. I listen to it and feel more prepared to deal with people afterward. Is there anything that can help you mentally “gear up” to a possibly exhausting social outing?

      Else just tell them “After being at work I need some down time.” but maybe suggest a coffee thing during the week if they want a chat?

    6. DaniCalifornia*

      It sucks that they put you in that position. You say you won’t get dinged or fired and I’m sure that’s true. But it’s obvious the way they had the conversation that they *notice* you never want to do/or do anything with them. It probably came off way worse than intended but could you think about it as them saying ‘Hey we realize you don’t like doing stuff at work so we’re giving you an opportunity to plan something you do like’ Could you plan something that you actually do like or a restaurant you like and plan it for a month out? That way it gives you time to accept the fact that you are hanging out after work and with coworkers but you could be in a familiar spot? I do this with certain people that I have to see but not often. If I have enough time beforehand I can mentally prepare myself.

    7. rosie*

      I totally sympathize with you here. I am a big proponent of maintaining boundaries–my coworkers are great, but they don’t need to be my friends too, and I think some offices just have trouble understanding that. Part of it might be because I’m a native of City X and have been here all my life, but most of my coworkers are transplants. But I do also agree that constantly refusing to come can make you look antisocial and potentially come back to bite you. Could you try to push for something casual during the day? My favorite social/bonding events we’ve done in my office have been lunchtime things like eating together in the park, having a mid-afternoon snack break together, etc. Because it’s still happening during the workday, it’s easier to maintain boundaries.

    8. JustaCPA*

      Frankly, based on what you have posted, I think you need to suck it up and do SOMETHING. And if you get to pick and control what that thing is, so much the better.

    9. Editrixie*

      I went through this at one sociable office, and people eventually got the idea and accepted it. It was just gun-stickery that did it: lighthearted refusals, sometimes not-so-lighthearted refusals, etc. It can be done.

      But: Once everyone had accepted my eccentricity of not liking to hang out socially with co-workers, that was *it.* For instance, if I ran into a group from my department on a coffee run (Starbucks in the basement! Woohoo!), it was just “Hi, Editrixie! See you upstairs!” And at unavoidable social events, like an in-office party, I’d invariably end up standing off by myself and trying to look vaguely cheerful — I am not at all shy and wasn’t being deliberately snubbed (I hope!), but people naturally gravitated toward those they were used to spending social time with.

      I liked pretty much everyone there and got along with them all fine day to day, and it didn’t ultimately bother me much (some people might even think “That sounds great!”). So I’m not saying you should do anything differently than you are. I *am* saying that someone more sensitive or naturally gregarious than I am might have a harder time, if that’s how things were to go.

    10. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It sounds to me like they assume the reason you don’t want to go out is because you only like certain activities, so their solution is to ask you to plan it, or, along the same lines, that they want you to come out so they want to make you comfortable. I don’t attribute any malice to them, just a different approach to after-work activities. And I think it would be worth it to go to this one, because it sounds like this is a cultural norm in your office and you have the rare opportunity to make this one slightly less painful. If it helps at all, going to this one event might build up enough capital for you to skip the next five without comment.

    11. Cousin Itt*

      There are only so many busy excuses you can use unless you truly are very busy with something like a time-consuming hobby (usually one like playing sports in a league where people rely on you rather than something solo like knitting) or part-time school or looking after family. After a while people will realise you’re trying to avoid them, which the fact they knew you wouldn’t show up if you didn’t plan it suggests has happened here.

      Pick something low-key that won’t take hours and suck it up for an evening. You don’t need to become besties with your co-workers, but it sounds like this is a sociable workplace where giving up one evening every several months will be a lot better for you than building a reputation as anti-social.

      Maybe go see a movie, so you won’t need to talk for a few hours but are still ‘hanging out’, then go for a drink or two where you can discuss the movie/chit chat for (half) an hour before heading home.

    12. BuffaLove*

      I think you’re expending more emotional energy fighting this than you would by just going to something now and then. Your coworkers are a little jerky for picking on you, but there’s a seed of truth to it – if everyone is putting a lot of energy into fostering those relationships outside of work, you have to be willing to put in at least a little effort. Just part of the whole social lubrication thing, IMO.

      I do understand, though – I quit a job partially because everyone there was REALLY into monthly happy hours and would tease me for not going. I was already having a hard time there, and all I wanted to do was go home at the end of the day.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        Yeah, you’re spun up a lot over this particular item, and it’s not worth your energy. Set a goal of going once or twice a year, but past that – you have other obligations.

        I get it because I want to just go home most days too. It’s part of the deal of being a professional.

    13. AliceW*

      I have worked at my firm for twelve years and have said “no” many times to the same people when they’ve asked about social outings after work. Just say, “sorry I can’t make it.” I used to come up with excuses but I don’t bother anymore. It never hurt my career. If they ask why you can’t make it, I would just say that you’re not the kind of person who wants to hang out and socialize with coworkers after work when you have too much stuff to get done at home. Not socializing/networking hasn’t hurt my career. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

      1. Windchime*

        I agree with Alice; it’s OK to just say no. My team is big on lunches; probably 6-8 times a year, we go out to lunch as a team. One person who is fairly new to the team used to suck it up and go, but he was clearly not having fun. Now he says no. Some people gave him some ribbing at first, but now his “no” is accepted and respected. Not a big deal; he’s still a respected and well-liked part of the team whether or not he goes to the team lunch.

    14. Lizzy*

      Honestly, from what you wrote, it doesn’t sound like you legitimately conveyed that you don’t want to do this. If I was one of the others and heard you say all that (especially with you using a lighthearted tone), I would assume you were bantering along with the rest of us and you weren’t really serious. If /when it comes up again, I’d say “You know, I realized after our conversation that you-all maybe thought I was bantering with you. I actually have no interest in doing X. I’m sorry for the confusion, and I hope you all have fun without me!”

    15. Lindsay Gee*

      If they’re so insistent, you could always suggest doing something during work hours, like a lunch or ‘team building’ event. Just explain that you have lots of commitments outside of work hours, which makes it difficult to fit in social gatherings in the evenings/weekends. I use this excuse all the time. I work a second part time job outside of my Mon-Fri 40 hr work week. So sometimes, I DO NEED that one night i have free to just do nothing. So you could make some excuse, that makes it clear your evenings/weekends outside of work are SACRED for XYZ reason. (other job, family responsibilities, book club etc.)

    16. You don't know me*

      If I got put in charge of planning an activity I liked, we would all be sitting quietly in a room reading a book, the only sounds being the hum of the air conditioner, the wisp of a page being turned, and the occasion sip of tea.

      2. Decima Dewey*

        In a similar vein: buy a big crossword puzzle book, a package of mechanical pencils, and have a crossword tournament. Separate the pages so each person gets a puzzle on the front and the back, hand out additional sheets as needed.

      3. Ann O.*

        That is my dream. Especially if there are tea sandwiches. But even with just tea, it would be the best workplace outing ever.

    17. Jules the Third*

      “I really need time away from all this to recharge and be at my best when I’m here.”

    18. Long time lurker*

      Thank you to all who have responded so far. The perspective is helpful.

      I should clarify a few things. First, Jon, at least, knows that I’m not interested in socializing regardless of the activity. He’s trying to get rid of any excuse I might have for not going. He brought it up again today and, again, we were both jovial about it.

      After hours social events are not a regular thing at my office. I think Jon is trying to bring it back because the team from 5 years ago used to do it since they were all friends. However, the nature of the office is such that we socialize during the work day all the time.

      Now that I’ve calmed down a bit, I think I’ll try sticking to my guns, being light-hearted and more serious as needed, as Editrixie mentioned doing. It’s trickier because Jon is already aware that I don’t want to go, but at least they should eventually understand that they won’t be able to pressure me to attend things. As some have suggested, I might also throw out the idea of a team lunch where it makes sense.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        Team lunch is a great idea. If you can once in a great while that’s a nice effort too. It shows and can help your professional relationships

      2. NW Mossy*

        That was going to be my suggestion – something that you could do in-office as an “I like y’all just fine” gesture to make it clear that you’re not snubbing them as people but just not down for after-hours events. It can be as simple as bringing in a box of donuts that includes flavors you know to be their favorites.

        It’s also totally fine to say to Jon that it’s making you feel weird that he’s continuing to pressure you to do this kind of thing when it doesn’t work for you. As a manager, he shouldn’t be trying to make friends with his directs anyway, and he needs to understand and respect that not all teams will bond in the same way. Also, he’s highly likely to manage (either now or later) employees with after-work commitments that preclude them from being involved. He may even become one of them someday, and he’d surely want that respected if it were him.

    19. Yorick*

      Maybe try going out with them at lunch instead. That might make them think of you as less antisocial and more wanting to get home in the evening.

    20. essEss*

      I was put in a position where I kept giving polite excuses for not attending an activity that people were planning. I kept telling them I had other plans and that they should go without me. I repeated all sorts of variations of “I won’t be there but I want you all to go and have a good time.” They finally backed me into a corner by stating that they’d pick whatever day I was available. I finally politely, but firmly said “I’ve been trying to give you polite reasons in order to avoid being rude. I really don’t want to do this, and I want you all to go ahead and do it without me so please stop pushing me.”

    21. Librarygal30*

      You might want to go occasionally. Your coworkers might be feeling like you can’t be bothered to get to know them better, and in a location that isn’t the office.
      I need alone time to re-charge after long days/weeks, but I know how to balance it if I have something I need to do.
      Go, and they might not bother you for a while!

    22. MissDisplaced*

      I think you may have to pick something and at least do this once or twice so as not to seem antisocial.
      That said, can you pick something that maybe helps the community? Hey, at least you can feel good about it even if you’re not social.

      I know there are things like Habitat for Humanity, beach/park/playground cleanups, Walk for X, food pantry, etc.

    23. Gotham Bus Company*

      By definition, “after work” activities occur AFTER work and thus ARE NOT part of work. The boss cannot “assign” you to plan the activity, and he definitely can’t require you to participate or punish you for not participating. You might need to get HR involved if he pushes any more than he already has.

      Not everybody wants to or can join their coworkers after hours. Some people have longer commutes than others. Some people have family or other commitments. Some people have health considerations. You are your own person with the legal right to spend NON-work hours as you see fit.

    24. Sam*

      If you decide you have to do something, a team breakfast is always an option. It sucks to get up earlier, BUT breakfast foods are nice, plus you have a defined finish time (as opposed to after-work events which can be way too open-ended for my liking).

  17. SpiderLadyCEO*

    Has anyone’s workplace formed a union? How did it go, what were some challenges you faced along the way? Do you like it/dislike it?

    My office is looking into it, and I am…nervous.

    1. irene adler*

      I know that minutes after someone talked about it, my boss had a very serious private discussion with me. It was along the lines of how unions actually make things tougher for employees- and employers too.
      He then told me about the time when they tried to form one at his prior company. It failed.
      The talk didn’t get far so his “concern” was for nothing.
      Just know that folks will come out of the woodwork to ‘talk’ to you about it.

      1. Blank*

        Yeah, it’s harder for employers because those pesky employees start asking for fair pay/conditions. How dare they! :)

      2. Anon for now*

        I worked somewhere where some of the workers tried to unionize. Unfortunately, the pro-union group was very pushy to the point that people felt harassed. It didn’t help that they very obviously had specific talking points and were unwilling to hear that people were generally happy or address concerns over what unionizing would mean for some unofficial perks with anything other than “trust us”.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Oh, the “unofficial perks”…that are inevitably distributed inequitably.

          Shame the organizers weren’t so good about listening. I would love to work in a unionized place and have more transparency and a legal route to fairness.

          Of course, one has to make sure that the union stays transparent and fair, too.

      3. essEss*

        That boss was skirting close to the law about union interference.
        https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/whats-law/employers/interfering-employee-rights-section-7-8a1 states that employers may not do a LOT of things related to influencing workers about joining a union including “Convey the message that selecting a union would be futile.”

    2. ANon..*

      Employees at a company I used to work at tried unionizing after I left. The employees pushing for the union were bullied by management until many of them quit. When it came time to vote, it failed.

    3. Jennifer*

      I can’t speak for the forming, but my union is problematic. On the one hand, it’s literally the only way we can ever get raises. On the other hand, most of the union people are not great. (Note: it is a famous union.) They won’t permit me to get any kind of higher position. One of them super promised me support and then bailed. My most union happy friend has gotten fed up and quit, but the other one still in has helped me.

      1. SpiderLadyCEO*

        This is what I am worried about, too. It’s not me starting the union – I’m just a signing member of the petition, because I don’t want to hinder those who want it. Our sister company has apparently successfully unionized.

        I’m not worried about management coming out of the woodwork to “talk us out of it” – I bet they will be mostly supportive – I just don’t know that I want it in the first place! Our work treats us really well, and their ideas of codifying that treatment just don’t seem necessary? I don’t want to pay fees to guarantee the company will continue treating me like it already does.

        The big thing that got everyone on this in the first place seems to be they think, ethically, an org that says it is pro-workforce should have a union, and that just seems like silliness to me.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          One really great thing that I have seen in unions is that most of the “benefits” become portable as long as you’re in a union. Pension plans, health plans, etc. I’d like it if we had a single-payer health care system, but, we don’t and tying the health insurance to a specific company is restrictive.

        2. Catwoman*

          If your workplace treats you really well and most people have goodwill towards the organization, then this is a great time to unionize. A lot of folks don’t think about doing it until there are problems and an antagonistic culture between management and the workers. If I were you, I would support it because if your company does start overstepping, then the union will likely be able to stamp things out early before it gets to the point of major conflict. See it as an ounce of prevention.

          1. Middle School Teacher*

            That is an excellent point. Starting from an adversarial place makes the process way harder.

    4. You don't know me*

      Its part of management’s job to talk you out of it. At the first mention of the word union they are to squash it as quickly as possible. I never been through it but I know it can get ugly and usually it does costs some people their jobs. That’s why its so hard to get unionized. The ones who fight for it the most usually end up being fired for “non-related” reasons or they are harassed so much they finally give up. Sadly this is why many employers can continue to treat their employees like crap and get away with it.

    5. Middle School Teacher*

      I’m in a weird position because there is a strong union where I am, but my School wasn’t part of it (we’re not part of a big board). We were sort of members (notnqctive, something else) and we had no bargaining rights. After a series of very unpopular moves by our board, we pushed to join our union fully, with bargaining rights. The board tried a variety of tactics (let’s try to resolve this as a family, and we’ll see if we can find money for raises; if you don’t stop this process there will definitely be no raises; and then telling parents that the greedy teachers would all go on strike because unions encourage their members to go on strike and this will be disruptive to education) but we kept going. We concluded our first collective bargaining agreement a couple of years ago. I love being part of the union. Our board and central office have tried to screw us a few times and we call them out on it, with union support, and then they backpedal: oh, whoops, sorry, we’ve always done it that way, we didn’t know. It’s awesome.

    6. Emily Spinach*

      My workplace unionized a few years ago, before I was in their bargaining unit (having a part-time job in the same general area, but not covered by who was included in the union at the time, and now am in the unit), and though many people were already very happy with pay and benefits, the majority of people agree that it’s been very helpful. The union can see things that are similar problems among people in different parts of our company that we might not otherwise see as a pattern, and they can thus save us some separate conversations with management: for example, in one group there was a sense that some promotional opportunities might be (perhaps not deliberately?) biased against POC and non-native English speakers, and the union was able to see that this concern had been raised by another group previously, so they asked for data (which our workplace wasn’t keeping, but now will) about how that promotional process is meant to work and who gets promoted. So we’ve been really satisfied, overall. The people who choose not to be very involved can more or less ignore that the union exists, day to day, and the people who want to be more involved can find ways to try to improve our workplace.

      I will say, people acknowledge that there was some tension as signatures were being gathered, because it felt stressful to talk to colleagues about something they might strongly disagree with each other about. But that’s temporary.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Negative Nancy here. I was told years ago by people who had been in a union for a long time that people who try to start a union WILL end up jobless. And I see it still goes that way, as I heard of someone recently pushing for a union and that person got canned. (Can’t fill in details, the larger story was in the news at that time.)

      Check out the union you will be joining. My old union took a day’s pay EACH month as union dues. I would have lost it anyway if I did not join because it went into a kitty for whatever. The union told us that if we did not walk a picket line when we were told to, we would get a black mark next to our names. Later if we had a union issue ourselves they would check to see if we had any black marks. They said point blank that if a person had too many black marks they would not get union help with their issue. I got a call 7pm to go walk a line the next day that was 50 miles from my home. I said NO. So I got a black mark. This was the tip of the iceberg, there were many more problems, including deceptive news articles. This union was going to help us with our voting choices. I could see how lesser informed people would believe the union could “see” right into the voting booth and some of these folks would believe they had to vote the way they were told or they would be canned.

      This is going to sound corny/stupid/whatever but I have found it useful. My father said to me, “Any time you need a third party to explain to your boss that you are doing a good job, you need a new job.” I tend to agree. In my story here it was like having two toxic bosses instead of one. YMMV, of course.

    8. Mimmy*

      I’ve always been a bit leery of unions, tbh. There is a union where I work (I’m not eligible because I’m considered a temp/per diem), and I remember during orientation the representative adamantly encouraging people to sign up. So if I don’t join up if I do become eligible, I’m probably seen as not caring? While I’m sure unions are great if they are done right, it seems like they don’t allow for individual thinking–“you’re either with us or you’re against us”.

      NSNR – Your father was wise.

      1. Girl friday*

        I don’t know of any negatives to unions. Do it for the next gen though because you might get pushback. Oversight is never a bad thing.

    9. Anon for this*

      I know I’m late responding, but in case you’re still reading replies, my department unionized at a previous job. There were other departments at the company that were already unionized, but my department wasn’t part of it, so we formed a new bargaining unit along with two other departments.

      I was totally against it because I had a lot of negative impressions of unions and union employees. I felt it was wise to keep my views to myself because a lot of my coworkers were strongly in favor of unionizing, so I didn’t tell anyone I was going to vote against it. I also didn’t want management to think I was in favor of it, so I kept my mouth shut when the subject came up. The company brought in some union-busting consultants to try to persuade us to vote against the union, and they were very ineffective. The union had warned us that the company would start being extra nice to us to make us think that we didn’t need a union, but that was not the case.

      Pretty much the only compelling argument the company presented was that, if we unionized, we could end up with a contract that was worse than our original conditions, and we would be forced to pay exorbitant union dues on top of it. I was concerned about this and I voted against the union, but the union won the vote, and my fears turned out to be unfounded. We all ended up with higher pay when the contract went into effect, and we had guaranteed 3% cost of living raises every year, in addition to step raises for moving up the pay scale. That, alone, more than made up for the union dues (which were about $65/month).

      One year, the company froze cost of living raises for non-union employees, but they couldn’t get out of giving raises to union employees because it was in our contract. I was glad to be in the union that year! I also had a pay dispute for over $2,000 at one point, and I filed a grievance and won. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have had any recourse if the same thing had happened before we unionized, because it would have been up to management’s interpretation of their own pay policies.

      Management’s attitude towards pay and PTO policies generally shifted more favorably towards employees after we unionized because they did not like to deal with grievances. Before we unionized, they tried to get away with some questionable interpretations, but once we had the option to file grievances, they mostly stopped trying to pull things over on us.

      I was also concerned about unionizing because I was afraid people would stop working hard, since everything in the union is based on seniority, not job performance. That turned out to be not exactly true, at least where I worked. Honestly, there was not a noticeable change in the day-to-day after we unionized. The hard workers still worked hard and the lazy people were still lazy. People still got disciplined or fired for misconduct, maybe just with a little more paperwork. Management still had discretion over promotions and could go by qualifications and not necessarily seniority.

      The contract did tie their hands in terms of giving special treatment or perks to some employees but not others. In a way, this was negative because it made it harder to reward good employees, but it was also a good thing because it reduced favoritism for the people managers personally liked for non-performance-based reasons.

      I don’t know if my experience is at all typical for unionizing, but at least where I worked, it turned out to be very positive for the employees who unionized. On the other hand, there is a union at my current job, and it is completely useless; I am in a right-to-work state now, which weakens unions here. Also, my current union is bigger and represents a larger range of departments, and the bigger departments get more attention from the union while the small departments like mine get neglected.

  18. FaintlyMacabre*

    Today in the annals of “Be Careful What You Wish For”…

    We have desperately needed a new piece of equipment with bigger capacity and for the last year, the higher-ups have been saying, “Yes, yes, we will get that. Someday.”

    Someday apparently meant yesterday. The new piece of equipment arrived. During a shift. And since none of the people who actually deal with said equipment were actually consulted on what to get, what we got was way too big for our tiny space and without the add-ons that would make it functional for our needs. Once they got in, they then realized they had to move other equipment around to make room and so now nothing is where it would make sense to be and some things are where they really shouldn’t be (heat producing equipment by temperature sensitive equipment.)

    Gee, thanks, bosses. You shouldn’t have. No really, you shouldn’t have.

    1. Jadelyn*

      Gods forbid management involve the *actual people using the thing* when it comes time to plan for and purchase it. Like, the intent may have been good, but the implementation…

    3. Mutton Lettuce Tomato*

      Oops! Yup, I’m sure it’s an annoyingly common trend to not consult with the people actually using the item being purchased. My boss took it upon himself to replace my assistant’s printer. I took one look at the new printer and asked if it had a manual feed tray. Of course it didn’t and when he asked if she really needed it I rattled off a list of over 10 items she regularly prints that require one. Why not ask me first? Or ask me to just order the damn thing since he’s so overwhelmed with more important tasks?

  19. DaniCalifornia*

    I think it depends on the rapport with your clients. I try to match my conversation over email or phone to what they have. I usually start out more formal (we’re in accounting) and if they make it more casual then I might say “It’s not a problem” (if it actually isn’t) I think it’s fine to respond with “Thanks for the file I’ll wrap up my part asap/by X date” or “Thank you so much, I’ll be in touch for ____ or by _____” I also throw in “I’m happy to assist” if needed when clients tell me sorry.

    I think just saying thank you and you’re welcome works best. It’s polite and can’t ever be taken poorly by the other person. I think culturally we have gotten away from you’re welcome and say no worries because most people truly don’t want to inconvenience others. No worries is a bit casual and I usually reserve that for coworkers if we know each other well or if there have already been a bunch of emails back and forth that say thanks.

  20. Ali G*

    I did the right thing, right?
    I got contacted by a recruiter for a part time position that I would have been great for. I am already working PT, but they aren’t paying too well and they don’t have a ton of work for me. This job was 3 days per week, so I could have kept the other one and only given them 2 days. BUT, I had to commit to work until mid-September. I am looking avidly for full time work. I was honest with the recruiter (because I want her to find me full time work!!) and she thanked me for being upfront, but said she wasn’t going to pass on my resume to the client because she doesn’t want to be in the position where I would be leaving half-way through the project if I got a full time offer.
    I know I did the right thing (there was no way this would have turned full time, even if I rocked it), but I hope future me, come September 15 isn’t kicking my self because I am still working PT for peanuts with no FT offers in hand.
    UGH.

    1. Technical_Kitty*

      The recruiter is not working for you, they are working for their own company, you are not beholden to them if you want to apply on your own. Don’t make the mistake of thinking they are looking out for you at the expense of their own wants.

      1. Ali G*

        Actually that is not the case here. This job isn’t even advertised on their website. She told me the name of the organization and everything. They specifically use this recruiter to recruit for this position every year. And still, even if I could apply on my own, I wouldn’t, knowing that I couldn’t make the commitment. That’s just wrong.

    2. ginkgo*

      I smiled when the page refreshed and I saw this right above my “Did I do the right thing?” comment below. Balancing timing in a job search is so hard!!! I think you did the right thing.

        1. ginkgo*

          RIGHT? I’d probably deal better with all this if I could stop putting pressure on myself, but, well, it’s a pressurized situation!

  21. ginkgo*

    Oof. I have an interview next Friday for a tech job that would pay life-changing money and open lots of doors for me. On Wednesday, I had an interview for a middle-of-the-road job – pays a little more than my last position, work I could do in my sleep, no real growth, health benefits + PTO but no retirement plan (which is important to me) – and they ended up offering me the job the next day. I had to tell them that I had another interview process I felt I had to see through and could not accept their offer until I did.

    Luckily they were open to waiting a bit (they hadn’t expected to move so fast in hiring either, but said they really liked me), although they are going to keep interviewing people. But that’s the end of my unemployment benefits, since I turned down work, so I really hope I come out of this with at least one offer. Hard choices, man.

    1. Ali G*

      That is hard! Especially with the UE to think of. The interview you have next week – do you think you will be able to scope out their timeline and be able to convey you have some decisions that need to be made sooner rather than later?

      1. ginkgo*

        Yes – I have a call with the recruiter today to prep me for the interview, so I can ask her about it then, thankfully! I think it was especially nerve-wracking because I really loved the people I interviewed with at the other job, and feel bad putting them off. But like, it’s my life.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      On the unemployment, it depends on your state (assuming US), but I was able to just not file a claim the week I would have had to report that I turned down an offer. I restarted my claim the following week with no issues. Same thing when I was on vacation and didn’t do any job search activities for that week. Our state has 6 mos unemployment within a calendar year of starting a claim but they don’t have to be continuous. I hope yours is like that!

  22. beanie beans*

    In last week’s Open Friday I had a late-in-the-day freakout when I found out I’d be on an interview panel for someone who used to work here and said some terrible things about this place when he left.

    The update is that the interview was incredibly weird, he spent a good amount of the interview being pretty negative about “how things used to be” and I didn’t have to convince anyone else on the the panel to go with someone else. Whew!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      What even is the point in coming in to interview if you’re going to be so negative? Oy.

      1. beanie beans*

        I struggled with this question, too and figured he thought he was getting an “in” with us with mutual commiseration over how terrible things were back then. When he should have been focusing on why he was interested in being part of a positive future.

        This was my first time being on an interview panel and I found the whole process fascinating. People say weird stuff in interviews! I know I’ve left my own interviews asking myself why I said xyz, but now I know the people on the other side are asking the same question! ha!

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      I was hoping for something slightly more dramatic somehow, but I’m also not surprised. At least he saved you without you having to put in any effort.

      1. beanie beans*

        I was definitely expecting drama, but was happy that the rest of the panel saw the same issues I did just from the interview without me having to hash out what I witnessed years ago!

  23. Nervous accountant*

    Kind of venting, kind of BEC mode here now. I know there’s no non-awkward way to address this, I dont’ feel right going to HR, and…yeah.

    My neighbors soap/perfume smells awful. She’s not homeless, and she dresses very nicely and well maintained. Im positive it’s not bad hygiene, it’s just the soap.

    She’s a nice person so I don’t want to be hurtful.

    Also, maybe not relevant but I feel like a hypocrite for complaining about smell b/c I wear a crapton of perfumes and bodysprays and lotions. I also have a lot of shoes under my desk and occasionally I eat Indian food at my desk. I’m sure all of these things may cause an offensive smell to others but in all my years here, no one has said anything to me, not even as a joke (“hey you smell!”)

    Soooooo idk what to do short of taking her aside and actually addressing it. She also has health issues so she may or may not be quitting or going part time and I don’t want to say something mean to her.

    1. Parenthetically*

      It’s not mean to say, “Hey, I’m so sorry to bring this up, but I think I have a sensitivity to your perfume! It would be a huge favor to me if you’d consider toning it down. Now how ’bout those TPS reports/giant subject changes?”

    2. smell city*

      can you just say something like,
      “Hey Coworker, I know this is really silly but I’ve been having trouble with allergies related to perfumes and fragrances lately. My nose and eyes have been getting itchy when I’m sitting at my desk, so I’m wondering if I could ask you to possibly stop wearing any extra perfumes or a different soap to see if that might help the problem? I’m sorry to cause you a bother it’s just been really getting to me”

      1. Natalie*

        But NA wears scented products, too. You can’t really ask your coworker to go scent free for your allergies when you yourself aren’t.

        1. Nervous accountant*

          Exactly, this might work except I use all the things. And I would feel like a hypocrite for complaining.

          1. Logan*

            Is there ever a time when she wears something else that smells better? If so, then I would compliment that one, and maybe even put it in the context of “I quite like a variety of smells, however there is an ingredient in your regular one which seems to disagree with me. Is it easy for you to change to something else?” (this obviously depends on your relationship)

        2. smell city*

          OH true, I forgot that part.
          Yeah, you can’t really have a convincing sensitivity if you use a lot of products like this. Sorry!

        3. Former Retail Manager*

          I have to agree with Natalie. If you came at me about my soap/perfume, I would totally come for you. Could you possibly convince someone to switch desks with you? Maybe to be closer to a window/natural light/the restroom/the kitchen/or any other place that doesn’t scream “I’m fleeing your soap!”?

          1. MissDisplaced*

            Ah yes, but just because you wear scents yourself doesn’t mean you can’t be allergic or sensitive to a particular kind of scent. I don’t have issues with most perfumes, but God, I remember when that “Poison” perfume was popular and it would make literally make me wheeze. Just something in it I guess. I’ve also thrown some of my own perfumes away for the same thing. But many others are just fine.

            I also have the same issue with Lysol in any form. Only Lysol, not other cleaning products.

            So, maybe you can ask (nicely) “Hey Sansa, what kind of perfume/soap do you use?” “Can I ask that you maybe try something different, as I think I may be allergic/sensitive to an ingredient in that particular product?”

            But you’d have to really know that it really WAS a particular perfume or soap and not something else or a mix of things and that’s tricky. But who knows, perfume people might not mind trying something else.

    3. Canarian*

      If you’re wearing a lot of fragrances yourself, it would be hard to get away with asking her to do something about hers. Especially since you can’t use the “sensitive nose” kind of approach. The shoes and food are less of a concern (unless you think the shoes actually smell).

      Could you experiment with your own fragrances that would cancel out hers? Maybe find a new lotion or moisturizer that has a nice scent and you can use on your face, or keep an air freshener or something pleasant smelling at your desk to kind of “drown out” the smell of her soap in your own space? I think the downside to this would be that it could somehow spark a passive-aggressive fragrance battle – this blog has taught me never to underestimate the possibilities for weird office conflicts.

          1. Ennn*

            You said yourself that the shoes might smell offensive to others, so I don’t think that was rude. Also, why even have so many shoes under your desk?

    4. grace*

      I think you’ll have a hard time with it because you wear a lot of scents. If it isn’t really bothering you – itchy eyes, sneezing constantly, etc. – then I’d vote you don’t say anything. If it is, frame it that way, and make sure YOU stop wearing the extra scents, too. Especially if you have any that are similar.

    5. LCL*

      Say nothing. Eventually you will adjust. There is a brand of cheap soap and shampoo that is heavily marketed to younger people here. When they have a temporary assignment to our office I don’t say anything, even though I believe they stink to high heaven of chemicals. If I had an allergy issue I would speak up-I have asked a temp assigned person to not eat a banana in our company vehicle.

      1. Nervous accountant*

        Yeah it smells like that soap used in McDonald’s restroom. I have never smelled it in a drugstore. I know I am not the only one who hates it but sucking it up is the only option.

    6. Boredatwork*

      ugh – I can totally empathize (and TBH was thinking of posting the same thing today). One of my co-workers has started using essential oils. The one she had on earlier this week was STRONG. I’m super conflict avoid-ant when it comes to this type of thing and since I can’t smell it in my office I’m not willing to waste capital on it.

      If you don’t think she’s the type to get deeply and personally offended, I’d just be apologetic and ask if she can not use that perfume. I like smelly city’s response.

    7. Cousin Itt*

      Sounds like you just don’t like the fragrance, not that it’s causing you any sensitivity? I would leave it, unless you’re willing to also give up fragrance if she turns around and says that she also dislikes all your scents, plus your smelly food and shoes.

      1. Nervous accountant*

        Yeah that’s fair, if someone complained that I wear too much perfume or eat smelly food or my shoes stink, I’d stop it or modify it.

    8. oldbiddy*

      Are you my twin? I love perfumes and used to wear them frequently, but at my former job I had a situation where my officemate loved to eat raw onions in the office and my next door office neighbor wore a ton of perfume. Smelling that particular perfume every day annoyed me, but there was nothing I could do. The high levels she used may’ve been in response to the onions or perhaps even my own perfumes. She eventually got bored with it so I was off the hook.
      If you really want, spin it as you’re sensitive to that particular perfume and she may switch to something else.

    9. Coalea*

      I know you said that no one has ever commented on your scents, but given that you are affected by your co-worker and have never said anything, you might want to consider that in the same way, others in your office are affected by you but haven’t said anything.

      1. Nervous accountant*

        True, but then literally anything I do can be offensive or bothersome to someone so where would that line be drawn ?

        1. JeanB in NC*

          You can cut it out with all this: “I wear a crapton of perfumes and bodysprays and lotions. I also have a lot of shoes under my desk and occasionally I eat Indian food at my desk.” I guarantee that there are people who are bothered by all this. Not so much the food, but shoes do smell, especially older ones, and wearing a variety of different scents is a sure way to bother someone’s allergies.

          1. grace*

            Nah, I wouldn’t go that far unless someone specifically asks you to. Do you, be polite, etc etc.

          2. Pleather*

            Shoes don’t always smell. Especially if they’re the kind you keep at work to wear infrequently. Is this really that weird? Half the women I know keep an extra pair of heels or two under their desk in case they need to go to a fancier meeting during the day. I’d hate to have to lug my work heels, which I don’t wear literally anywhere else, back and forth every single day instead of keeping them at my desk.

            1. Nervous accountant*

              Both men and women in my office have multiple pairs of shoes at their desk, so it’s not out of the norm here. I’m surprised that people think it is.

          3. essEss*

            It’s really unfair to coworkers to “wear a crapton of perfumes and bodysprays and lotions”. Even if they haven’t complained to you, it is really uncomfortable to be in an area around someone who gives off a lot of perfumes. Most people will end up staying quiet and suffering and it’s considered good manners to be considerate of others when you are going to be in enclosed spaces with them. I’m not trying to be rude, I’m trying to point out that others shouldn’t have to ask you to share the airspace fairly.

        3. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Personally, I draw the line at all of the lotions and perfumes. Shoes don’t always smell (and I have always kept shoes under my desk, as have my colleagues, so I find it normal) and food is food, which most people eat at one point or another. But perfume and lotions can get really aggravating really quickly, as you’ve discovered with your colleague and her soap.

          But most of the time, if the smell is simply unappealing rather than medically aggravating, we say nothing. Because that’s part of being out in the world. Personally, I hate a lot of perfumes and most strong body lotions, but unless my eyes are watering, I say nothing. I would expect the same from most people. I have only asked for something smelly to be removed once, and that was because a colleague had stargazer lilies on her desk and they make my eyes water and my nose run and have done from across rooms.

          And I think that’s Coalea’s point, that there’s a good chance your scents are aggravating others but they’re not saying anything because it’s not that big a deal or they’re non-confrontational or they simply accept scents as part of life. It’s not a demand for you to stop wearing scented stuff altogether, just a reminder that people don’t always make every annoyance known.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      There is a cologne (perfume?) out now that is sooo. very. bad. I think it is a woman’s product because I passed two women wearing it the other day. Honestly, I am baffled that people find it attractive. The scent is like drano in my nostrils. Under arm sweat is not this bad.

      I think that the only card you can use is, “You know, we both wear a lot of fragrances. I am beginning to see that it bothers other people. Maybe we both could quit using them together.” I used to use fragrances so I do understand the appeal, but I quit because of health and cost. I did find that less fragrances helped in small ways with my health.

      1. Windchime*

        There is a server at my favorite restaurant who wears something so horrible that I can hardly stand it. I wonder if it’s the same fragrance you’re talking about. She is a wonderful, funny person and I love having her as a server but honestly her perfume smells like bug spray.

    12. Hamburke*

      You said she has health issues – could it be a side effect? My husband injured his ankle (achelles tendon – no open wounds or cast) a couple years ago and, man, did he smell bad even though he showered twice a day with the same soap we’ve used for years! I talked to the doctor ho said that it was likely a combo of the meds and his body chemistry changing to help him heal.

  24. T3k*

    Well, I think I’ve got my first “dead response” after an interview. Tried emailing the recruiter 2 weeks after the interview and… nothing. I mean really, not that difficult to just say you’ve moved on with other candidates. *sigh* Well, here’s to almost 3 months of being unemployed… again. Feel like my life’s title should be “The never ending quest for a job”.

  25. Benjamina*

    My boss is going through a difficult divorce right now (still early stages but it’s turned very ugly very quickly) and she’s really struggling to keep it all together. She has told me many times throughout my employment, and before this happened, that she wouldn’t be able to to cope if I left and that she might as well just give the business up if I did.

    I am underpaid and overworked, and have been trying to get up the courage to leave for about two years. I had just made peace with the fact that it is just a job and her emotions are not my responsibility, and then the divorce came along.
    It feels awful. She’s having a really difficult time right now, but it doesn’t negate the fact that I am desperate to leave. I just don’t know how I can break the news to her when she’s already in tears most days.

    I guess what I’m asking for is if anyone has any tips on how to put the guilt and emotional baggage aside, so I can actually apply for different jobs? At the moment I just see the drama and upset that will happen so I stop myself before I really begin.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      This is a tough position. I’d say to start documenting processes and information now, as you’re looking for jobs, so that when you do get a new position, you’re not scrambling to get that all done. Try to give a longer notice period if possible. Basically, do what you can to make the transition easier.

      As for the guilt part, well, if your boss decided to give up the business tomorrow, would she keep it just so you still had a job? And this might sound terrible, but if she’s already going through upheaval, the emotional impact of you leaving may be mitigated by everything else she is going through.

      1. Washi*

        Agreed. Plus, looking isn’t the same as leaving. Let yourself just look, and tell yourself you’ll wait to decide until you have an offer in hand. You might find that having a concrete set of choices makes things clearer.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      Thanks to everyone who gave such good advice a few weeks ago on how to handle annoying comments when I told people I was leaving my teaching job. It’s public knowledge now, and I feel so much better having something memorized to say before changing the subject. Looking forward to my first summer in a long time with no professional development!

    3. Julia*

      Well, if she wanted to keep you so badly, maybe she should stop underpaying you? Does she think she can pay you in guilt trips? I’d rather be able to afford an actual trip somewhere nice and warm.

      And what did she do before she hired you? I’m not saying your feelings aren’t valid, but she sounds super manipulative.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Well, if she wanted to keep you so badly, maybe she should stop underpaying you?

        This. You’re underpaid and overworked, and she’s not doing anything to rectify that.

        1. Benjamina*

          That’s a really good point! It’s one of those things that intellectually I know that she lavishes me with loads of praise usually after she’s denied a pay rise or any changes I’ve asked for. But in the moment I usually fall for it and think “yay, I’m valued!”

          It’s so silly, because I can easily identify this kind of manipulation for other people (goodness knows I read AAM enough), but it’s taken me an embarrassingly long time to see it for myself.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            I’m picturing the conversation now…

            “But I told you I wouldn’t be able to cope if you left!”
            “And I told you I needed a raise. And here we are.”

    4. miyeritari*

      This is probably harsh, but if she wanted to keep you so bad and didn’t know what what’d do without you, shouldn’t she pay you a good wage and work at making the job one you’re happy with and want to stay at forever?

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      Look backwards. Was there ever a time when she wouldn’t have guilt tripped you for leaving?

    6. ..Kat..*

      Please look out for yourself. You deserve to be paid appropriately and not be over worked. She will always be going through something. Lavish praise doesn’t pay the rent nor allow you to save for a decent retirement.

    7. MissDisplaced*

      Don’t buy into this. Don’t let her guilt you. If she can’t “cope” without you, then she ought to be paying you better!

      Why is it taking you 2 year to get up the courage to leave? Start looking! If she decided to get out of her business due to this divorce, do you think she’d keep paying you? NOPE!

      Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it almost sounds like you’re in an abusive relationship and are afraid to leave.
      She is taking advantage of your obviously good nature. Her “drama” and “upset” are NOT YOUR PROBLEMS.

    8. Observer*

      This mess is all the more reason for you to start looking for a new job. The idea that you need to stick around to “see her through” an ugly divorce is lunacy.

      She’s also either not being honest with you or she’s not a very good manager. Because if someone is REALLY that valuable, you PAY for that. So, either she’s just talking up how much she depends on you to keep you working for peanuts, or she’s a bad manager who doesn’t understand that you have to pay for quality. (Hence underpaying and overworking you.)

    9. Not So NewReader*

      “I am underpaid and overworked. She is using my guilt and my emotions to extract what she wants out of me for a below fair rate of pay.”
      Her business is going to go under anyway, you have been carrying it all this time for her. You have delayed the inevitable.
      Owning a business is a privilege and we have to work every single day to keep that privilege. She has told you every day for two years that she cannot cope with the business. My suggestion is to encourage her that there IS something out there that is right for her and she should keep looking for that thing. See the shift here? It’s not about you. In her mind it’s all about her so she will need you to say things that reassure her. When you go to give your notice have a small list prepared, “I have done X, Y and Z for you to put you in a better position once I am gone from here.”

  26. Fishsticks*

    Hello all!
    I’m looking for advice for how much to ask for in a raise. I work in a two person company and wear many hats: personal assistant, researcher, and I do all the accounting that doesn’t require a degree. I’m not sure really what to ask for a raise since it’s such a wide-arcing job and I don’t have any goals or new responsibilities that I could use to argue my case. Additionally, I have access to previous assistants wages and if they got a raise it was $500 and that’s basically a buck or two after taxes. I’m following Allison’s guide to asking for a raise but I’m having trouble with the know your worth bit. Additional info that may be relevant: I’ve been here a year this month and live in a very high cost of living city.
    Thanks in advance

    1. AliceW*

      Are you underpaid? Is it just an issue of you not having gotten a raise in a while? If you don’t know what the market rate is for a position like yours or with a similar level of responsibilities it is hard to know what you are worth and what to ask for . If you haven’t taken on any new responsibilities it is hard to argue they should pay you more. But if you haven’t been given any raise at all over a certain period, say three years, you can always point out that given inflation over the past few years is at 2% a year you are now essentially doing the same work for less and would like to request a raise of 6%.

  27. Super Anon*

    So my boss effectively kicked me out of my office yesterday. My boss has her own office but the area (not her office, not even her building, but the general area) is under construction. She has a setup in my office to use. Yesterday she had a conference call that she had to take in the office we share and told me I couldn’t be there. I don’t have a laptop so I basically couldn’t work for the last two hours of the day. I refuse to use my personal time for those hours because it was not my fault. Boss could have used her own, personal office for the call.

      1. Super Anon*

        And she is usually not like that. I just think she didn’t realize that I don’t have a work laptop so I would have no way to work sitting in an adjacent vacant office (which she also could have used).

    2. BigSigh*

      This is frustrating. Where you asked to take it as personal time?

      Maybe check with your boss and ask her if, because of potential long-term construction, it’s likely she’ll need full use of the office again in the future. Maybe you could request a company laptop?

      1. Super Anon*

        She did not, but I am just going to ignore those two hours on my timesheet at the end of the month. I will ask that she puts any future meetings on my calendar so that I am aware and will schedule accordingly.

        I actually don’t want a work laptop with my current job description. I am not exempt from overtime and I do not want to bring my work home with me. If I get a promised promotion in the next few months I would be happy for a laptop.

        1. Tau*

          I will ask that she puts any future meetings on my calendar so that I am aware and will schedule accordingly.

          Since you mentioned above you think she forgot you don’t have a work laptop, I’d mention that as part of this. “Just a heads up because I’m not sure you realised this – I don’t have a work laptop, so if you use our office for a conference call I can’t do any work in that time. If you need to do it again, can you let me know in advance so I can rearrange my schedule?” or something along those lines. Hopefully your boss will decide it’s better to use her own office when informed of the implications.

          1. Super Anon*

            I do think she forgot, because the rest of the team do. The rest of the team also have job duties that require one whereas I do not.

    3. Earthwalker*

      What a great opportunity to ask for a work laptop and perhaps even occasional work at home privileges! You can make it look like you’re solving office problems and not asking for special privileges.

  28. NotaPirate*

    Hello! I’ve got two questions
    1. In interviews as a soon to be phd, how to explain wanting to leave academia. I’m in bioengineering. My actual reasons are sick of university drama/politics, tired of chasing grants for funding, tired of unstructured hours (aka just never stop working). Also I hate public speaking and teaching classes has been really tough for me. But I feel like those won’t convey a good impression of me (not flexible, not a team player idk). Anyone have good phrasing?

    2. Second question: Current boss never stops adding new work. He emails me at 10pm wanting something new and then at 8:30am calls me into his office wanting additional things, never mind that I haven’t had a chance to do 10pm thing yet. How do you cope? I’m going nuts trying to track everything and getting frustrated as I can’t make any headway on any project without 10 new projects being dumped on me. Is this a personal coping thing I need to adjust to? Any tips? Also when does it become an awkward conversation I need to have with my boss. I currently point out what else is already on my list but he doesn’t seem to care. I like completing tasks. I hate this endless spiral of more and more never complete work.

    Thanks.

    1. pleaset*

      No experience in your shoes, but I’d say “I want to put my knowledge into action developing products, such as at this company”

      1. oldbiddy*

        This.
        I’ve moved back and forth between academia and industry and it’s mostly the academics that are weird about it, not industry/private sector. If an interviewer asks, remember that they’re not in academia so they are not going to take it personally that you are leaving. They may even have done it themselves. It’s either a general, get to know you question, or they may want some assurance that you won’t immediately change our mind and want to go back to academia.
        FWIW no one likes chasing grant money, so it’s perfectly ok to say that you didn’t like that aspect of the job.

        1. NotaPirate*

          That’s a really good point that they may have done it themselves, I hadn’t thought of that.

    2. Murphy*

      Is it really “leaving academia” if you haven’t gotten your PhD yet? I’m not sure there’s anything you’d need to explain. I’m a PhD dropout, but my plan when I was in school was never to be a professor. (PhDs are looked on favorably, but not required in the field I was studying.)

      The academic environment isn’t for everyone, and I think most would understand that. I would maybe focus on the positives of the work or the work environment rather than the negatives of the academic environment.

      1. NotaPirate*

        There’s definitely an expectation that you will go into academia from this side of things. I don’t know if that’s university specific or what. Focusing on the positives should be doable, I’m very excited to be back.

        1. only acting normal*

          To people in industry leaving academia after a PhD is normal (many will have done just that) – they’re not going to ask.
          To people in academia staying is normal which is the expectation vibe you’re picking up.

    3. epi*

      My impression is that it’s not that weird to want to leave academia, or at least be open to it, in fields where there is basically a way to do the work in industry. As far as I know bioengineering qualifies (my field does too and that’s why I picked it). Since you’re nearly done, now would be a good time to look for resources for students and new grads you may not have been aware of before. For example, lots of schools have institutional subscriptions to Versatile PhD, job boards just for students and alumni, and career services that won’t necessarily be aimed at getting you an academic job.

      I don’t think that not wanting to be primarily responsible for chasing grants, or not wanting to teach, do reflect badly on you– tons of people don’t want to do those things and either leave academia over it or stay but consider them the worst part of the job. They sound bad to you because you know how much you don’t like them and why, but you don’t need to share all your feelings about those things!

      For example, it’s fine to say that now that you have teaching experience, you know it isn’t for you, without saying you hate public speaking. Teaching is not that much like other types of public speaking anyway, and you could end up finding a context where you don’t mind it in the future. It’s fine to want stability and structure in your work without talking explicitly about your current workload– people who have or work with PhDs know the lack of structure is one of the things that make it hard.

    4. owlie*

      for engineering jobs i don’t think they’re super-likely to question why you’re leaving academia. it’s a field where the non-academic jobs are better-paid and more numerous than the academic jobs! that sentence cannot be said for some fields…and if you’d be working with eng phds then they surely made the same calculation. i wouldn’t sweat it if i were you.

      2. Admin of Sys*

        Yeah, this. Having worked for a big pharma at one point, the ‘because I like having stable funding’ is a /great/ reason for PhDs to leave academia and I think most corporate labs would be nodding along with you.

    5. fposte*

      I don’t think leaving academia is going to loom as large to private sector employers as it does to you, but in general it’s best to be changing direction *for* something rather than to get away from something. What is it you’re looking for in the private sector? Think of the question that way instead.

    6. Already Left*

      1) I don’t think you have to justify leaving academia if you can compellingly motivate why you want to be in the job you’re applying for. Realistically, people understand that there aren’t enough academic jobs for the number of STEM PhDs we produce, so if you’re applying for a job that needs your degree, just be excited enough that about the job to convince your interviewers that you want it and you’re not doing to run back to the ivory tower as soon as possible. (I’m a STEM PhD in a non academic postdoc and no one asked me why I wasn’t applying for an academic one).

      2) It sounds like you’re already doing your best with your boss, so some of it may just be needing to set your own priorities as to what gets done. The other thing that might work (if you’re not already doing it) is telling him directly to choose what you should do/what is a higher priority, rather than simply pointing out that something won’t get done. I can’t tell if he’s giving you things with deadlines or just dropping more amorphous stuff on you, which can be easy for bosses in science to do if everything has a sufficiently long timeline, but try your best to stay focused on the things which are most interesting if he won’t provide any other guidance.

      1. NotaPirate*

        That’s reassuring to hear that no one asked!

        He’s dropping this with really tight deadlines, like do this task A immediately we need the results for X Y Z. And then 45 minutes later calling me back and wanting a new immediately we need this other task B, U V W are needing to know so they can do task C! At which point he makes task A now amorphous, and task A sits partially completed and in several incomplete files on my desk…

        1. Already Left*

          If your boss is your PhD advisor and you have been around for a while with a decent relationship, it might be worth having the awkward conversation about the general trend here (I know this kind of thing would/did drive me bonkers). Also if this is something your whole research group experiences, can you push back together? My other (somewhat snarky) suggestion is to ignore his prioritization and just use your best judgement – my boss was always after me to “take ownership,” and deciding when things actually need to be done is definitely doing that! (Only works if nothing actually needs to be done on a timeline or you can assess the timeline yourself).

        2. Catwoman*

          I think in this particular scenario something like, “Ok, I’ve been working on Task A and that’s at about 60% completion. Should I finish this up or is Task B more urgent?” You might also want to add something like, “If I finish Task A, then I can probably get Task B to 40% by the end of the day or if I move on to Task B now, then I can get it to 100% by the end of the day.” If he doesn’t give you concrete answers even with these direct questions, end the conversation by letting him know what you’ve decided to prioritize and why: “Task A came in earlier and I know I can finish it by the end of the day, so I’m going to focus on that. I’ll start on Task B if I have time today, but if not it’ll first thing tomorrow morning so I can have it to you by the end of the day tomorrow.”

          This seems overly pedantic, but that’s the point. Your manager is not setting priorities for you, so this language helps you squeeze it out of him. Also, this exercise is exhausting, so hopefully he’ll catch on and start giving you priorities to skip this exercise. It also might help to use a shared Outlook task bar or something like Trello so he can see what you’re working on and add notes or re-prioritize as necessary.

    7. June*

      I would set up a Kanban board (https://leankit.com/learn/kanban/kanban-board/) in your office with all of the tasks your boss has given you. Bonus if you can put on the post it note how long the task will take (hours, day, weeks, etc). Next time he asks (or yells) about a task, you can point to the board and calmly say “I am currently working task. If you want me to work on new task, I can do so but it will delay the other tasks. Is that ok with you?”
      Once you punch a bully in the nose (or show them how many tasks you are working), they usually calm down.
      Good luck!

    8. Courageous cat*

      For #2, a lot of that is about making sure you’re setting boundaries yourself by not replying to things out of office hours.

      When you get in in the morning and see an email from 10pm, say something like: “Gotcha. I currently have plans to work on A, B, and C today. Where would you like me to fit in (10pm request)/how would you like me to prioritize it? It may push back A/B/C in that case but I wanted you to be aware.”

      As he keeps adding things on that are past your ability to keep up with, I would keep having iterations of this conversation. It’s not an awkward “stop doing that” – it’s just open communication about where you’re at and whether or not the new task is feasible.

    9. Tau*

      Re 1) I think the important thing to keep in mind is that, as people have said, this is not going to loom *nearly* as large to people in industry as it is to you. The other thing is that if they do ask, it’s a great opportunity to switch gears to explaining why you’re enthusiastic about this job. “The lack of structure got to me – I’m really looking forward to working in a team like Chocolate Teapots’. From what you’ve said, you have some great processes in place with a dedicated project manager, blah blah blah.”

      And, to reassure you, I wasn’t great at either of these things when I was job-searching after my PhD (learn from my mistakes!) but someone hired me anyway.

    10. English PhD*

      I’m a soon-to-be English PhD with some interviews under my belt. Nobody has outright asked why I’m leaving academia. What they tend to be curious about it whether I’ll be happy in the role I’m interviewing for. Rather than airing my list of grievances with academia, I’ll say something like “I enjoyed my time in academia, but I’m really looking forward to entering a role where I can work on problem-solving tasks that have a direct impact” or whatever fits the role. I haven’t locked anything down yet but I think my interviews are getting better. I know talk about the PhD as little as possible, or I break it down into different components and treat them like different jobs. Like, “an an instructor, I…” or “working in academic publishing, I…” This might be more specific to humanities PhDs seeking non-academic jobs, as there is no obvious “industry” for us to join.

    11. Trout 'Waver*

      1. For a population to be at a steady state, each pair of parents can only have two offspring survive to maturity on average. Likewise, for a steady state academia, each professor can only have one grad student become an academic professor, on average. That’s a whole lot of PhD student that don’t go into academia.

      2. Your prof is annoying. Just do the things you need to do to graduate and ignore the rest. The world won’t stop turning.

      But, one caveat about this sentiment, I hate this endless spiral of more and more never complete work.

      When you’re doing research on the types of things that require a PhD in bioengineering, you will always have unfinished projects. You will never have a checklist where everything is checked off. It’s not magically different in industry. It’s worse in some ways, better in others. But there’s always some blue-skies project you could be working on.

    12. Anon for this one*

      We just hired for a vacant position where 3/9 people we interviewed were trying to leave academia. Everyone on the hiring panel agreed that “leaving academia” was itself a very valid excuse, no amendment necessary. The reasons anyone would get tired of it are pretty obvious.

    13. Emilitron*

      I feel like everyone who isn’t *in* academia has a pretty clear impression of academia being a weird place that really suits certain people and isn’t a great fit for most others. The unfortunate part of grad school is that you’re being given a picture of your field that’s entirely based around academia as being where the absolute smartest most capable people have a chance to do the most fun research topics they can think of in an environment that’s completely free of customers and stakeholders – i.e. academia from the point of view of your professors, who are (by definition) the kind of people who are a great fit. Professors have a bad habit of implying that anybody who leaves academia is a failure; they’re incorrect. Interviewers at industry jobs are (not quite by definition, but almost) not great fits for academia and won’t expect a lot of justification. In essence you’re telling your interviewer “I want to do what you’re doing”; that’s not the kind of statement that they’re going to question, and acting as if academia is something you have to apologize for leaving is almost insulting to other non-academics. So just focus on what you’ve learned about yourself (job/task/work preferences) in grad school and how you’re excited to do that with this job opportunity.

    14. Bye Academia*

      1. I agree with everyone else who said to focus on why you want the job you’re applying for, not on why you want to leave academia. The closest I got to talking about why I wanted to leave was when one interviewer asked how I felt about not having ownership of my own research/project agenda because it’s a hard adjustment for some academics. I talked a little bit about how I hadn’t enjoyed the blinders of one PhD project and how I was looking forward to working more collaboratively on multiple projects. The specific phrasing you’ll use will depend on the specifics of each job you are applying for.

      2. My PhD advisor was like this and it was really frustrating. Sometimes I would ask him “Do you want me to stop working on task A to get task B done now, or wait until I’m finished?” At particularly high volume times I would just ignore any task I thought was too tangential until he asked for it a second time and it was clear he really cared about it. He would often forget about experiments he asked me to run as he got distracted by the next shiny idea, so this worked okay. If you’re close to finishing, definitely focus on what you need to do to finish your project and your thesis and just get out. If he’s anything like my old boss, he isn’t going to change. He’s going to keep asking for more and more as ideas come to him with no thought about how long they will take and how much the chaos will impact you.

    15. Kathenus*

      I will probably be repeating something others have said, but I don’t have time to read through all the comments. For #2, I had a boss who did this ALL THE TIME. I just got really good, and consistent, with saying ‘yes, of course I can do new task. Which current project would you like me to back burner in the meantime’. I mean, every time that I was asked to do a new project, I’d say of course, what should I drop off or put on hold. It got so that he not only expected that response from me, he even mentioned it in a positive way on a performance appraisal.

      I was always trying to be positive with the ‘yes, of course’ part, but immediately also being realistic if it wasn’t feasible to add to my workload without taking something else off for the moment. Good luck!

    16. sleepwakehopeandthen*

      I can give you the strategies that work with my PI, but YMMV.

      Hmmm, does your PI keep track of all the projects that he asks you to do? My PI asks me a lot of random things that wouldn’t be reasonable to accomplish all of them and so I don’t do things unless I want to do them or he tells me 3+ times. I’ve also found that a “Interesting, I will think about that” is good at managing him (and also committees) when trying to get me to do things that are reasonable. I will also tell my boss that things he is telling me to do are not top priority–at this point, I am the expert on my project and I have a good idea of what I need in order to finish my papers. I think that PIs also respond really well when you frame what you have left to do into where it will fit in your paper(s). I am near the end of my PhD, so I’m finishing up two papers. If something won’t go in those two papers that I am writing, I will tell my PI that something sounds interesting but it is a project for another student.

    17. Mamaganoush*

      1. I wouldn’t say anything about academic/university politics and drama. That will come off as complain-y. I also wouldn’t complain about chasing grants, because being able to get grants and understanding that whole process = a lot of useful skills. Focus more on wanting a structured work environment, recognizing that classroom teaching is not your strength (but do be ready to talk about skills you’ve developed as a teacher)

      2. Don’t even look at your work email after business hours. I hope you have separate work and personal email accounts — if not, start now, this very minute. I’d make a list of current projects you are working on, what you are doing with respect to those projects—list out all the tasks— and how much time it will take to complete them. Be thorough. Do NOT underestimate the amount of time it will take you to compete the tasks. You may FEEL you should be efficient enough to finish the TPS reports in two days, but in fact everyone else takes a week to do it, so estimate a week. If it adds up to more than 40hours a week (or whatever you’re being paid for), ask boss to help you prioritize: which of these projects is more important? And also, although you personally may feel the need to finish projects, that doesn’t mean you are the person responsible for finishing every damn project your boss comes up with, when it is not humanly possible to finish the amount of work being thrown at you. Time for that awkward conversation.
      Your boss may not in fact realize that the amount of work is not reasonable, if you’re always getting everything done by killing yourself.

  29. silvertech*

    I have an interview for a job in my former industry next week. I had swore to myself to never go back (I even posted last week about changing careers) but my financial situation is not good so I thought it would be wise to apply to a few positions that I was qualified for.

    I’m so nervous!

    My former job contributed a lot to my health problems and it was toxic, for a lot of reasons. Maybe this new place won’t be as bad, but I’m still a bit scared… of course I shouldn’t even worry about that now, as I’m in the very early stages of the process.

    Better focus on my interview now, I will have to restrain myself from talking s*it about my former employer, for sure.

    1. NotaPirate*

      Don’t be nervous! It sounds like you might not really want this job, so don’t sweat it too much. You can apply to jobs in industry A and new industry B at the same time. Throw lots of lines in the water, see what gets a bite!

      The not talking crap is hard, but everyone loves hearing drama so try really hard not to elude at it.

      Good luck!

      1. silvertech*

        Thanks! Right now, I might or might not… I’d be financially stabler for sure, but I can’t just jump right in without thinking. I’m studying Alison free interview guide and all the relevant blog posts, because I haven’t interviewed in a while. Especially the posts on how not to talk about your former toxic jobs :D

  30. changed name for this*

    Just a bit of a vent but ugh, I’m graduating from library school soon and I honestly regret going straight from my undergrad to grad without much actual library job experience. I have a part-time student job in a library now, but I’ve only been in it for a few months and compared to my peers, I feel so behind and inexperienced. I have the drive, though social anxiety makes networking difficult and I feel so lost. This is also combined with the fact that I don’t have a driver’s license (never needed one in a city with good transit) and I will have to move soon, but where I’m not sure. I’m applying to jobs that seem to be around my level but am basically pretty scared right now.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have social anxiety, too.

      So, as a fellow librarian (who was once a socially anxious library student and is now a socially anxious librarian) I have some blunt advice that I wish someone had given me: Get Over It. Do whatever you have to do to do that. Get therapy. Try meds. Do whatever works for you, but learning to be social and friendly is one of the most critical job hunting skills/life skills.

      Listen, I know that’s easier said than done, but you have to just force yourself. Join a student group. Volunteer in another library. Email people when it scares you. Walk up to folks at conferences. Apply to present at conferences.

      You don’t have as much experience as your peers or you’re nervous that you don’t, but you have to build your resume and the best way to do that is to force yourself to do the things that scare you. (I know this sucks. I’ve had panic attacks in conference hotels. Boy, do I know.)

      It’s a tough market for librarians right now. You have reason to be scared, but you can’t let that fear paralyze you. Good luck! You can do this.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      It’s hard to know on this question. It’s always a “what-if.” I went straight through to grad school and have often felt like I wasted the time because I didn’t have much real-world experience to consider, and because it felt like a fifth year of college that I kind of skated through without really digging in the way it felt like my more-passionate older peers did. Also, in my late 20s I was super jealous of all my friends who got to take a time-out/reset on their careers while I kept slogging away at my job. (They seemed to be having a lot more fun than I was, taking research trips to Guam etc).

      On the other hand, I think I probably got the acceptance and the funding I did, in part because I still had really strong faculty connections having just graduated. If I had take 3-5 years in the work world before going back, I would have run the risk of never wanting to do it or never being able to get the same opportunities I had. And now that I’m in my 30s I see people trying to pick up a masters in night programs while working full time, and that seems really difficult. So basically, you’ll never know if it was the right choice, even 15 years out I don’t know, but I can live with my choices.

    3. Anonanon*

      Fellow librarian here. I also graduated library school having absolutely no previous experience and had no idea what to do. I got lucky in a few ways, one, my family was very supportive and I was able to volunteer at a local academic library for roughly three months without pay, which gave me something to put on my resume and also real experience to talk about when I did finally get an interview. The second way I lucked out is I got an interview for a “resident” position. There are a handful of libraries, particularly academic libraries that hire 1-2 year temporary residency positions. They are designed specifically for new graduates who lack experience. They don’t always pay well, but at least they pay (unlike volunteering and unpaid internships).

      Also, I had a colleague several years ago who never got her drivers license and she has held librarian positions in multiple cities without a problem. It’s not always easy and sometimes you have to rely on friends or co-workers, but she has mostly been able to stick to the bigger cities with good public transit, and it’s been totally fine, it has not diminished her job opportunities at all.

      Apart from that, just keep you eyes peeled for any opportunities, Librarians are nice people, and they want to help. Read blogs, follow fellow librarians on twitter, take part in anyway you can. Just keep putting yourself and your resume out there. Good luck!

    4. fposte*

      How soon is soon? If you’re looking at public libraries, especially youth, summer is a great time to do some volunteering and get some programming experience, and that’s good for networking as well.

      I also second AnotherLibrarian, though I think of it more as “Push On Regardless.”

    5. changed name for this*

      Thank you to those who responded. It’s also good to know I’ve been doing a few things right (been volunteering for multiple years at a library plus my current job experience). It’s been a looming cloud over my head the past several months since I graduate this August so I really appreciate the encouragement and advice, including the tough advice!

    6. Name changed*

      Just a comment about not driving: that’s really the least of your concerns, and you should try your best to let go of it. It feels like because you’re already anxious about the big things, you’re also feeling anxious about this small thing.
      My child is legally blind and can’t drive, so that limited colleges to ones in cities with good public transport and/or plenty of Uber/Lyft drivers and/or a walking culture / sidewalks, same thing for internships, jobs….
      Trust me, if you need to learn to drive and you are not physically limited, you can do it. Try to focus on the bigger things.

  31. jstarr*

    How can I hold my line with my new responsibilities?

    I’m a teapot designer and recently, with the blessing of the head boss, went and acquired a teapot. The whole thing went very well and I apparently have a knack for it. After a conversation with head boss, they decided I should do some more “assisting” with acquiring teapots while still doing my design work. Cool. No problem. Except I’m assisting the least well functioning person in the department and the workload is becoming a lot more than head boss anticipated for me. I’m looking for some phrasing that will indicate yes, I’m still interested in doing this but I need to either be getting paid for it or back off the assisting this person.

    1. Jules the Third*

      ‘How can we bring my compensation in line with these new responsibilities? How much time do you want me to spend on this?’

      Warning, tho, if you’re not putting in more time overall, there may not be any change in compensation – neither designers nor procurement are paid big bucks in most industries.

  32. Free Meerkats*

    We just got notice that the IT group is rolling out online Security Awareness Training. Depending on one’s job, we will have 3 weeks to complete a certain number of modules. No problem, I understand the need for it.

    What is annoying me is that after the training, they are going to start sending out simulated phishing tests regularly so we “can practice the skills you will learn as part of your training.” Yes, drills are good, but this seems to me to be a bit overbearing. Of course, I’ve kept the “Microsoft Support” scammers on the phone for nearly an hour, just to amuse myself.

    1. BadWolf*

      My company sends out phishing emails. The first time, it included keywords from our job. I was a little disappointed it wasn’t a super detailed oriented Spammer.

      This practice slightly backfired as now people are extra suspicious and think real emails are spam/phishing if they look a little weird. A couple of times, someone has had to send out a follow up email to say prior email is not spam and you should click on the link and do what it says.

      Well, then you shouldn’t send us weirdly formatted emails with offsite links.

      1. Jules the Third*

        Amen. I *just* emailed someone’s manager to ask if their email was legit. Weirdly formatted and offsite links (IRS W2 site), a request for banking info – um, no.

        1. IT Marketing Manger*

          Next time, call instead. If someone has gotten into their email, they can just reply back and say yes.

      2. Tau*

        I totally reported a legitimate corporate e-mail as phishing. In my defense, it looked super suspicious (clickbait title, dubious link that didn’t match the link text, and everything).

    2. I am who I am*

      Test phishes have become a very standard cybersecurity thing and, given the percentage of malware attacks that happen because people clicked on a real phish, it very, very necessary. Sorry.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, we get these at work all the time. I work in IT so they are usually pretty easy to spot and ignore, but apparently lots of people click on them so there is constant training going on.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Ooh, an hour? No one at my office has kept the scammers on the line for more than half an hour. (We consider it a public service – the time we spend playing with them is time they can’t spend victimizing people who don’t realize they’re scammers.)

    4. IT Marketing Manger*

      Because so. many. people. fall for phishing emails and it can cause incredible damage. Real example (fake name): A mid-level, customer-facing employee at Zonkos fell for a phishing email and got hacked. The hacker then sent an email to one of Zonko’s customers saying that they needed to update their bank draft information and pay their bill. Since it came from the Zonko’s employee’s real email, they did it and paid the hacker $100,000. Understandably, they’re now refusing to pay Zonko’s the $100,000 for their real bill. We’ve seen multiple variations of this with multiple customers (and STILL can’t convince some of them to take security seriously).

      Testing can give the company the ability to see what kind of emails people are falling for and who is most likely to click or reply to something they shouldn’t. Ideally, they’ll use that information to provide more training or to put extra precautions in place for the people who click on everything. Trust me, most every company has at least one employee who will click on anything.

      1. Anon for ransomware*

        There are also specific vulnerabilities that corporate networks can have. My last job was at a global company that got hit by a ransomware variant designed to spread fast through a closed network using standard sysadmin networking tools. It took down everything. I left before we got things running again; the damage must have been tremendous. If you’re unlucky, an infection from a single person clicking on a phishing link can spread… and spread… and spread.

    5. nonegiven*

      DH’s company did the online training and then sent out phishing emails. DH refuses to open any email if he doesn’t know who it’s from. A newsletter he signed up for, a coworker or vendor, everything else is spam and he doesn’t open it. So he didn’t open the phishing emails but he didn’t open the emails from the training, either.

    6. MoinMoin*

      My company sent out phishing emails and if you clicked on a link it told you that you fell for it and always be wary and never click on links!!1! And then they started sending emails with security training that you clicked on a link to get to and got mad about how low participation was.

    7. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      haha… when my company set up this training one of two things happened to enough people they had to send out a new announcement because ~75 percent of the people missed the training deadline, 1. The email filter shuffled all the notifications to the junk/spam folder automatically or 2. People deleted the email outright because it looked like a phishing attempt.

      I was joking with my boss that the people who took the training on time were the only ones that needed it, and the rest of us should have gotten credit because we either recognized a suspicious emails or had the tools to identify them.

    8. Observer*

      Companies do this for a reason – it’s shocking how many people fall for this kind of stuff.

    9. Hamburke*

      My husband designs and sends out the fake phishing emails as part of his IT security job. It’s often the best way to obtain network credintials. There’s almost always a response rate higher than you’d expect so I don’t think this is out of line.

  33. Recent bored hire*

    I feel icky writing this. Recently I landed a job with great pay, benefits and a short schedule. Full time is 37 hours. This was a newly created position.

    My last job was toxic but I’m also used to working nonstop from 8-whenever. Lunch was always worked through because of such a heavy workload.

    This job I’m bored at and they’ve promised more work but it’s not happened in over 2 months. I’ve got 12 years experience in my field. Unfortunately I’ve fallen into gossiping with coworkers about family and don’t want to keep doing that. Yet I’m tired of my boss “going to find something for me to do”. This increases my anxiety of “will they cut my position”. Ugh

    1. Lil Fidget*

      My prior job had a 35 hour workweek, and mostly it meant that people either took a full hour for lunch every day (often leaving the office entirely to run errands) or left at 4PM, or did a short Friday. I’d rather be busy when I’m there and not there when there’s nothing to do. Is there any chance you could swing something like that? It’s possible I might be keeping my eyes open if I felt like there was nothing to do.

      1. Recent bored hire*

        I wish. It’s set, rigid working hours. I feel anxious like “she’s got nothing to do so why are we still paying her”.

        My old job sucked but we were very busy due to a lack of staff. But it was constant work.

        1. Julia*

          If they just hired you, and most of your colleagues have time to gossip, I wouldn’t worry about it. I had a job once where almost no one had enough to do, and it was boring, but no one got fired.

          1. Lil Fidget*

            It’s true, there are jobs like this, and it can also be seasonal. Some people hate them, other people kind of like the time to slack off, while getting paid the same as someone working twice as hard. If you’ve ever had the ambition to write a novel, this may be your window …

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This happened to me. I moved from a toxic job to a newly created position. My old job was constant, go-go-go, very high stress. My current job? Not so much. That whole, “they’re going to fire me because I’m not busy” feeling was prevalent for a while at first. And it stinks. But keep communicating with your boss. As long as your boss understands that you’d prefer to be busy, you will be ok. It takes a while for some companies to figure out what to do with people, but in the meantime, you’re paid for your experience and your potential and the help they thing you can bring. So hang in there if you can and keep checking in with your boss.

    3. Jules the Third*

      Can you look for projects? I used to love filling time with documenting processes…

    4. Hope*

      Use the extra time to develop yourself professionally–look up tutorials for skills you want to acquire. Read articles/publications that are applicable to your field so you stay current. Etc.

    5. Yorick*

      In a lot of jobs it can take more than 2 months for you to have real stuff to do. Projects tend to kind of build up over time. Or this might be a dry season. Give it a little while longer and see what happens.

  34. Camellia*

    I was cleaning up some work files this week and came across this list, and thought I would share it here.

    Two years ago, a coworker was going through an unpleasant divorce and she asked me what all she should be doing to help protect herself and her assets. I came up with a few things and later asked my husband and he came up with a great list, and when I gave it to her she said it was very helpful and had things on it that she had not thought of. I know this is technically not work-related, but it would be great to keep on hand for coworkers who ask or who you know are facing this, or already going through it and who ask for suggestions, or are open to receiving suggestions, as well as for friends and family.

    First suggestion:

    https://www.annualcreditreport.com/index.action

    This is the only free credit report that you can get from all three reporting agencies. You may want to consider putting a credit hold on yourself for a while. This means that you have to approve any new credit opened in your name. This can take a few days to weeks to remove when you wants to apply for new credit.

    Other suggestions:

    First, if you share the same computer or if both have access to the same one, you need to beware of key-loggers. Since key-loggers can be hidden, you may need to purchase an inexpensive laptop to ensure there is not spyware capturing your passwords, etc.

    Second, you need to get a new email account that the other person does not have access to or know. This way you can first change your email information on all the websites then go to the third suggestion.

    Third, change all passwords and security questions.

    Fourth, check ALL financial institutions that you deal with and make sure that the other person no longer has access. Banks, 401k, mortgage companies, auto loans, IRA, medical spending accounts and so on. If there is a joint account you will need to close it and open an account in your name only. Do NOT trust the other person if they say they have removed your name from a joint account – that can’t be done.

    Fifth, change all insurance policies to new beneficiaries.

    Sixth, change all insurance to just yourself, such as auto/home. Some states will not allow you to remove the other person from your health insurance until the divorce is final.

    Seventh, all utility bills – you need to inform them that you are the only person who can make changes to the accounts. If in their name, you need to make sure they are current and switch them back to your name.

    Eighth, check online accounts that are not obvious: online banking, online book (think Nook account), online video account (think NetFlix), PayPal (and other online payment accounts), eBay, and Amazon.

    Ninth, change all social media accounts and limit their ability to post on yours.

    I also suggest that you run the Annual Credit Report on the other person while you still have a chance to do so. This may reveal hidden credit and banking accounts that you may be liable for or even entitled to.

    1. JeanB in NC*

      Thanks for this – my friend is definitely getting ready to leave her husband (finally!) and I’ll give her this list. I think she’s doing most of it, but it can’t hurt.

    2. Diva*

      Running a credit report on another person without their permission can be illegal in some states so check that out first.

  35. Lil Fidget*

    I can’t believe it, I actually negotiated for a full month off before starting my new job! This was more important to me than salary, to be honest. I am totally burned out at my current job and I need the mental space before I try to be a good employee again. Yaaay!!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Congratulations! I think this is important to highlight. Yes, obviously, if you can get a higher salary, yay! But salary isn’t everything, and there are lots of other things worth negotiating for in addition to or instead of salary, depending. Sounds like you really needed that.

    2. Free Meerkats*

      When I started this job, lo those many years ago, I asked for and got a 3 week delay before starting. Part was a planned family reunion vacation, part was just relaxation. I leveraged the not working into relatives buying the beer when I let it be known I was “currently unemployed.” :-)

      Enjoy your time off!

  36. Help with my title?*

    My official title is ‘data analyst//gis specialist’. I’ve been told its fine to shorten or change it to whatever I want, but I’m need help figuring out what I should choose.

    Day to day, I use sql server to pull and update data. I move data back and forth from our server and arcgis. I’m very experienced with Arc, and use python scripts to automate some things I do with it, but in this job I’m doing almost no spatial analysis. I analyze the results of some studies we are doing and write them up for stakeholders, but the analysis is no modeling, mostly lots of cleaning our data and figuring out the right mean/median/stdev to help people understand what is going on. I do help plan these studies. While cleaning data I find and fix irregularities (duplicate polygons, unreasonable measuments that mean our instrumentation is likely malfunctioning, etc). When I find broken instruments I send our field techs out to fix it. I write small python scripts to automate some data processing.

    Can I say I am a data analyst? I don’t feel like I’m doing lots of analysis, but I don’t want to demote myself if that is a reasonable thing to call myself. Is there another title that I’m not thinking of that would make more sense?

    1. Parenthetically*

      Geographic data analyst? GIS analyst?

      My husband’s old job was in GIS and his title was “GIS officer.”

    2. Arielle*

      I work on a data engineering team and your work sounds similar to what our Data Engineers do.

    3. epi*

      Your job sounds cool! I use GIS in my research but am nowhere near your level. (Just can’t seem to pick up Python; would rather do everything in R.)

      IMO the GIS Specialist title implies the database skills and at least suggests the Python skills. On the other hand, data analyst, while a sexy title (so close to data scientist!), doesn’t at all imply that you know anything about GIS. However, I say all that as someone who does both and knows what is involved in being a GIS analyst.

      A huge part of data analysis is always data cleaning, validation, and reporting. If you prefer the data analyst title, don’t sell yourself short.

    5. Anon for this one*

      I would probably go with Data/GIS Specialist. I have a GIS background and it seems the standard path is gis technician –> gis specialist –> gis analyst. If you are mid-career, you are probably still in the specialist category.

    6. What is work?*

      You should look at jobs you see yourself in 5 or 10 years and see what they’re looking for in previous experience/past titles/buzz words and try to have your title choice highlight that experience. I think there is enough ambiguity in job titles between companies that you don’t have to feel like you’re lying whichever one you choose, but you do want yours to be the “best” choice you can make to get you that next (better) job.

      1. Catwoman*

        +1
        I have data analyst and scheduler in my internal title (I work at a university.) but I use Senior Data Analyst as my external title as that translate easier to outside of academia and the bulk of my position is data analysis. Also look at job descriptions that seem equivalent to the level of work you’re doing too. I think data analyst is fine because you’re working with SQL and Python and those are usually skills companies are looking for in data analyst positions.

      1. lopsided*

        No. There are too many self-titled data scientists out there who all do completely different functions. If OP’s role doesn’t involve any modeling or more advanced stats, it’s not a data science role. OP’s role fits well into either the GIS Specialist or Data Analyst titles.

    8. DG*

      Titles I’ve seen are:

      GIS Technician
      GIS Processor
      GIS Specialist
      Spatial Analyst
      Geospatial Analyst

      I’d probably lean more toward something with “geospatial” in it as I’ve seen the wind blowing that way when it comes to job postings/descriptions.

      It sounds like your database work should not be discounted though, so maybe something like “Geospatial Database Administrator” or “Geospatial Database Technician.”

      Best of luck!

    9. Help with my title?*

      Thank you all for your replies! It sounds like I have many good options and just need to figure how I want to position myself. I will be re-reading your explanations and advice over the next week as I decide, so I appreciate everyone who chimed in!

      1. Gumby*

        Back in the pre-internet bust days I worked at a company at which people got to choose their own titles. Someone in the office went with Senior Solid Gold Dancer (he was a software development manager).

  37. Another Person*

    I recently went from a job where management deemed it essential for everyone to be physically present in the main office at all times to a new job that’s very decentralized. Everyone on my new team works from a different location and we colaborate by phone, email, virtual meetings. Has anyone else dealt with this and what helped with the transition?

    1. KR*

      I work a remote job. There are a couple other people in the office with me but the majority of the company is on the opposite coast (US) than me and the team I work on is everywhere. I try to get on the phone with people to get a feel for their voice/age/how they look. I add people I contact fairly regularly on LinkedIn or at least look them up so I can get an idea of their background and what they look like. I call into conference calls whenever I can to stay connected with the company and with our department. I take every opportunity to travel to our home office or around to our different locations. I keep notes in my outlook contacts about different people so I can more easily remember things about them that you would usually associate with their face. Also I amp up email communication to compensate for the lack of in person communication.

    2. seller of teapots*

      I’ve been part of remote teams for the better part of 5 years now, and I think video chat is sooooo useful. It really helps break down the sense of distance and helps build a sense of connection. I think it’s best to default to video chat if you can/if it’s not too out of bounds for your office culture.

  38. resume q*

    How much does it matter if your achievements on your resume have quantifiable data?
    I have read Allison’s posts about how to write a resume when you don’t have measureable results, but I feel that for some of my achievements I should have measureable results, but I am just not aware of what they are.
    For example, I ran production testing on a new method of producing tea pots. It was successfully managed the testing process and data collection, and implemented the new process. I’m sure it saved cost, improved quality, etc., but my job was to test/implement, not to measure those effects and I do not know what they are, or if there is anyone even measuring that!
    I feel like my resume is going to be quickly skipped over if I have no measurable numbers on there. I don’t know what to do.

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      If your boss or supervisor is trustworthy (i.e., there won’t be negative consequences if they think you’re job hunting, whether or not you actually are right now), you could try asking them or a coworker who works for another part of your organization. Be careful with this, though–if you think they might react badly if they think you’re job hunting, I wouldn’t do this.

      1. resume q*

        Thank you for the advice. This is what I was considering, but I think it could possibly go wrong. I would have to ask a previous manager, (same company as current though) and say “oh remember that project I did at the beginning of last year? How much did I save the company?” and it would be red-flaggy

      1. resume q*

        Thanks for the link, but this is actually the post I was referring to that I had already looked through for for advice.
        My issue is more, “How can I write a resume when my job DOES have a measurable result but I don’t know what it is?”

        1. Jules the Third*

          Can you ask your manager for the results? Say you want to know them for your annual review. She may be able to put you in touch with the person who measures.

          If they don’t have a person who measures, someone should have done a study on the cost / benefit, you might be able to get that and say ‘implemented program changes estimated to have x impact’

          You could also get a little into the details of the actual change, such as ‘implemented process to reduce touch points from 8 to 5 without impacting quality’

    3. Fabulous*

      I think you might be able to get away with not having official numbers in your bullet for that one; it’s pretty impressive in itself! Something you might be able to measure yourself is the time it takes to complete the process now vs the time it used to take and use that as your quantifiable output. For example: Successfully tested and implemented updates to teapot production process using cost-saving methods and improving the quality of teapots produced, increasing overall teapot production efficiency by 50%.

    4. Jemima Bond*

      If it helps I have sometimes have used language outlining what I enabled someone to do or a possibility I brought about, in the absence of being able to say whether that actually happened. For example:
      “Working in the assassins’ guild back office I [did stuff] and successfully identified/located the target, and briefed the appropriate assassin enabling her to deploy covertly and make a clean kill.”
      Whether the assassin actually did this is a matter for her, but I made it possible and that is my result. Also using “successfully” or similar before a verb for a task can make it sound more “resulty”. “I successfully briefed management” gives a gloss of achievement to a greater extent than “I briefed management”, at least imho.

  39. Name Required*

    I did a phone interview where I was told they had more people to call and the team needed to find time to get together to discuss candidates, so they wouldn’t be getting back to me for at least a week to 10 days. They sent me a rejection e-mail the next day. So I guess I was so horrible they couldn’t wait 7 to 10 days to include me on the mass rejection e-mail?

    A few weeks pass and, yesterday, I get the same form rejection e-mail. Seriously? They needed to reject me twice?

    Wake up and check my e-mails this morning and there’s a THIRD copy of the same exact rejection e-mail waiting for me. WTF?

    1. A Beth*

      You’re not horrible just because you might not be the right fit for that job! But it is a bummer to get the same rejection more than once.

    2. Another Person*

      They sound really disorganized, another workplace would probably be better anyway!

    3. miyeritari*

      It doesn’t sound like these people have their act together, so… blessing in disguise maybe?

    4. Ali G*

      Recently I applied for job (a stretch I admit) at small organization where the President is a colleague of mine (we never worked at the same company but collaborated on a few projects together over the years). After I submitted my application I emailed him to let him know. He was thrilled! But he was on the road and needed to check in with the dept head to see where in the process they were. Before he even got back to the office, I got not one but 2 separate rejections. And they weren’t even form rejections! They were actual emails from actual people.
      He was kind enough to follow up with me and said he would keep me in mind for future positions, but man that does sting.
      I feel you! It sucks.

    5. katkat*

      Oh no you’re not horrible!
      They probably emailed you directly because they had just spoken to you and wanted to let you know their decision as soon as possible, and then I would bet that when they took the job posting down/changed the settings on the posting/did something else in the programming of the posting, the system sent out the auto email.

    6. SpaceNovice*

      It’s definitely them and not you. Sounds like a bullet dodged, truthfully. I’m sorry you had to deal with that.

  40. Not Maeby But Surely*

    Gah, I hope this doesn’t get buried. I would really appreciate some feedback, and it’s kind of time sensitive. I got a message from a former co-worker who is interested in hiring me for a new company she and another former coworker are starting. I have a TON of questions I’d need to (and will) ask them about their company in order to feel comfortable on my end. CurrentEmployer has been in business 70+ years and is a well established leader in the market; new companies have a huge hill to climb to get clients and stay successful. She basically asked if I’d be interesting in leaving CurrentJob at all, b/c I’ve been here for a very long time and this is the only company I’ve worked at in this field. She asked me to shoot her a salary range and I’m nervous as all get out to do it! Because… 1) I think my desired range will be out of their league, as a brand new company. Possibly *way* out of their league. I could take myself out of the running immediately. 2) I’ve never had to do this before and I don’t even know what to ask for. I was thinking of saying my current salary as the bottom end of the range and +$10,000.00 as the top end of the range, depending on benefits package, of course. I know I’m worth it and that it’s in line with market rates for my current job. (New position is same kind of work on different kind of teapots, for lack of a better analogy, but salary could skew lower than my asking by $10k-$20k.) And 3) I’m slightly worried about my current salary getting around to other people, since both people at NewCo also know other people here, or that my CurrentEmployer finds out I’m entertaining the idea at all.

    1. AJEM1991*

      Go for what you would ask any other employer for salary-wise
      If it is a company you really want to work for – drop to what you can still live on but not massive amounts

      Re. confidentiality – be clear that the information is being given in relation to a potential employment opportunity and not to be used or repeated in any other manner and you expect absolute discretion in relation to these processes

    2. Lil Fidget*

      It seems to me you are in a good position. You probably don’t want to leave your current, secure job that you presumably like, if they can’t pay you MORE than you make now. I would put my lower range at 5K more than current salary, and if they say that’s too much, well, you know you’re worth that because you make within 5K of it now, so you’re not interested in this opportunity.

    3. Catalin*

      Talk to your contact. Say, “I’m looking for (NOT I’m currently making) a salary of (n)+5K to (10 K above the first number), depending on benefits.
      That way, no one knows your current salary.
      Also: just because someone offers you something (or just expresses interest in you) doesn’t mean that this is the only ship that’s leaving the harbor.
      If CurrentEmployer doesn’t want you entertaining the idea, then they should have paid you better/made you happier.
      If NewCo can’t afford you, that’s okay! You’re not the only teapot maker they could possibly find!

      Now, go get your dog!

    4. irene adler*

      Before you broach the salary question, might ask them about their financial situation. They very well could support a large salary for you. They certainly should not expect you to accept an undervalued salary because they are just starting out.

      Also, with new companies, annual salary increases aren’t always a sure thing. So you would serve yourself well to ask for the largest salary you can get. Might be years before you see any increase.

    5. Not Maeby But Surely*

      You all made good points. Thanks for the responses! I’ve got some thinking to do.

    6. Lupin Lady*

      Take a good look at your finances and your appetite for risk. Make sure they have the financing to actually fund the company. The number one reason start ups fail is because they don’t have the funds. Resenting your pay after a year into a start up, or worrying about everything as you’re climbing that hill, will not be good for you or your performance.

      Negative nancy aside, start ups can be really exciting and it could be right for you! But it’s not right for everyone and there’s no shame in that!

    7. BRR*

      If they can’t pay what you’re asking for, would you be disappointed to be taken out of the running? Think about what you’d need to earn to leave a stable company for an unstable start up in addition to the position’s responsibilities. I wouldn’t worry too much about your current employer finding out.

      Also, in this scenario I wouldn’t think it would be out of line to ask them what their range is.

    8. ..Kat..*

      You would be giving up a lot of stability by working in a startup. Ask about benefits, compare them to your current company and factor that in. Ask about their business plan – is it realistic? Have they established good funding sources? Do they know what they are doing? If this business failed, how easily could you get a new job for decent pay? Are you the sole source of income for your family unit? How much debt are you paying off?

      Given the risk, etc that you would be taking on, don’t lowball your salary request. If anything, you should be asking on the high side.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Also keep in mind that start ups require incredibly long hours. How do you feel about work/life balance?

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Keep in mind that with startup companies, the benefits package might not be what you’re used to. Think: very basic (if any) healthcare, no retirement or 401k plan. Can you do that?
      However, startups may also offer stock options so you get some skin in the game. It’s a tradeoff, but is it one you’re willing to make?
      How’s their financial and/or investor situation?

  41. smoke tree*

    Any professional writers on this forum? I’m interested to hear your thoughts about what the day to day is like for you. Not so much general stuff about the other things you have to do besides writing, the industry, etc, but just how you find it personally. What do you like the most about it? What do you like the least? What surprised you the most?

    1. WellRed*

      I am a writer/editor for an industry publication. While I enjoy my conversations with people on the phone, I have a tough time psyching myself up to make some of those calls, which has worsened in this day of texting. I also hate the fear of not coming up with enough content (I also hate that word) each day/week/month. It can be hard to get started on writing a story, but I find the writing process soothing when I am finally in it (substituting a word here, moving a sentence there). People sometimes reach out because I can provide them a voice when nothing else has worked, which is an awesome and fearful responsibility.
      FWIW, I do absolutely no writing in my personal life.

      1. WellRed*

        fearsome, not fearful. Also, I love it when a story comes along that gets me excited to pursue, something outside of our usual coverage.

  42. Obvious Girl*

    The LGBTQIA+ group at my workplace is going to be introducing preferred gender pronoun stickers as a thing employees can stick on their work monitors. I suspect it’s going to be optional. While I’m more than happy to respect the PGPs of others, I have zero desire to have this at my desk. My plan is to basically politely ignore the whole thing. Take a sticker if I’m in a situation where not taking a sticker is awkward, let it languish unused on my desk, then dispose of it eventually.

    I’m afraid of negative professional repercussions. Is this a legitimate fear I should have?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If it’s optional, you probably have nothing to worry about, though I admit to being curious about why you have “zero desire to have this at [your] desk” if you respect the preferred pronouns of others. It sounds like a fairly non-intrusive way communicate something that is seemingly minor to cisgender folks, but of extreme importance for trans/non-binary individuals.

      1. Blank*

        Yes! The best way to normalise neo-pronouns, and to normalise checking for preferred pronouns, is to participate even if you’re cis. What kind of negative professional repercussions are we talking, here?

        1. Obvious Girl*

          I’m not sure what kind of professional repercussions, that’s why I was asking. I was curious if anyone had experienced/witnessed a similar situation. At least one person (Jennifer, her comment is below) seems to have experienced a similar thing, which is englightening

        2. LCL*

          Maybe OP is totally onboard, as she says she is, and just doesn’t want to get involved. You are getting close to ‘why won’t you sign my petition to stop this thing we agree is horrible’ territory. As OP says, it is optional. For those persons that think it is extremely important to have the sticker, they can have it. Myself, I would be tempted to put up a sticker that says ‘Shirley’ and roll with the jokes.

      2. Anonish*

        We have nametags stuck to our monitors and this made me think about writing my pronouns on mine. My company’s attitude toward LGBT matters could be characterized as “extremely well-meaning but sometimes clueless.” (Example: we got little buttons for Pride that are super cute! Except they’re not actually in Pride colors!)

      3. Rat in the Sugar*

        I don’t know about Obvious Girl, but personally I wouldn’t want to put a sticker like that up because I wouldn’t feel comfortable putting my actually preferred pronouns. I’m neutrois/agender but AFAB and usually pretty femme presenting. Since I don’t really care about my gender I’ve never bothered to “come out” (it feels weird to use that phrase since I don’t feel closeted) and just let people think of me as cisfemale and use female pronouns.

        However, while I don’t care enough to ever correct people’s assumptions, when it comes to actually putting a sticker up instructing people then I want it to be what I actually prefer–which would be male pronouns. Even though I don’t mind people assuming I’m female, I don’t want to straight up declare I am when it’s not true, especially in an LGBTQIA+ friendly setting where I could be out. But then it opens a whole can of worms about whether or not I actually want/need to be out, whether I could be out only at work but not have to deal with explaining to friends or family, whether I’m “agender enough” for people to accept it when I usually present femme, etc etc etc…So I wouldn’t be comfortable putting a sticker up.

        1. Admin of Sys*

          Oh, good point! I like the idea of normalizing the pronoun game, and I find it superhelpful if someone is wearing a tag (because I hate misgendering people but I also suck at guessing). But at the same time, it does put a social pressure to out yourself and people who may not be happy with that, and is especially complicated for people who are questioning / fluid / etc.

      4. Courageous cat*

        As a cis female who wholly supports respecting anyone’s preferred pronouns, I would probably not want to have that because I don’t really want people thinking about my own personal gender in general any more than is necessary past their initial recognition that I am female. I’m having trouble explaining why I feel that way though so I dunno. Something to think about.

        1. LCL*

          I’m with you. I have seen organizations offer these stickers for namebadges, and getting a sticker was optional.

        2. Emilitron*

          Thanks for writing that, it makes a lot of sense, and it helps me sort out how I feel a bit. I’m part of a hobby group that often has pronouns on nametags, and in that context I’m happy to declare myself cisgender and female, but I would feel awkward about proactively declaring myself female at work. I’m in a male-dominated profession, and I am generally happy to go along with the fiction that nobody cares what my gender is because it isn’t relevant to the task at hand. I believe that my coworkers are not in a place that my proactively reminding them that I’m female would be interpreted as asking for special treatment, but in a more dysfunctional place with a similar gender ratio it could be really awkward.

          That said, the point of stating preferred pronouns is trying to spread the Awkward around a bit, not just land all the burden on trans/non-binary people – and what I’ve just stated is “no thanks, I personally prefer to have less Awkward”, a state of privilege. Duh, that’s the point, to make it more awkward for me so it’s less awkward for others. So I can see both sides. It would come down to how my immediate coworkers were responding, but I’d probably do the same as OP – take a sticker, but not put it up, and then feel guilty.

          1. Ann O.*

            I don’t read what you’ve stated as “no thanks, I personally prefer to have less Awkward.” I read it as “no thanks, this way of diminishing Awkward will increase how I am negatively affected by sexism.” Which is not about privilege at all, but rather about a different way of lacking privilege.

    2. EB*

      I’m of the mind that as long as you’re told it’s optional, then you’re in the clear to not display them. On the other hand, if it’s not optional, I’d suck it up and display it. I’ve had some “is this the hill I want to die on?” moments like that in my job. We took the DISC assessment a few years ago and were required to display our results under our name tags so that we’d have an “easier time” communicating with each other. I really DID NOT want to do it, but everyone was required to… and it turns out that no one cared or paid any attention to them.

      1. LovecraftInDC*

        “We took the DISC assessment a few years ago and were required to display our results under our name tags so that we’d have an “easier time” communicating with each other.”

        Do you work for robots? That’s insane. ‘Oh I see you are are submissive. Do the things I asked for, now please.’

    3. Canarian*

      There’s a difference between things that are actually optional and things that are “optional.” You gotta gauge the environment in your workplace to figure out which one this is and if you’re going to suffer repercussions.

      You should also consider the possibility that since you work in a trans/non-binary inclusive workspace that’s implementing a program like this, many people – seeing you don’t have a sticker – might revert to they/them with you, since it’s considered the safer, neutral option. Even if you’re femme-presenting (I assume based on your username), people might not want to assume she/her. The sticker might end up being a helpful thing after all.

      1. BigSigh*

        I feel it’s more likely such aware coworkers wouldn’t revert to they/them when someone is clearly opting out based on the fact that anyone who prefers they/them would go out of their way to make it clear.

        I read this as a nice, thoughtful program for those interested, but something you could easily not participate in. I help organize LGBTQ events at my work and wouldn’t give it even a split second of thought if someone didn’t have a sticker on their station identifying gender. The whole point of these is a you-do-you mentality, and if YOU is not someone who runs around with gender stickers then god d*** you shouldn’t have to.

      2. Jennifer*

        Yeah, I think this isn’t really “optional.”

        I had to add pronouns to my email signature and while technically I was told that was optional, I got to hear a GIANT RANT by someone about it five minutes later….yeah, it’s mandatory.

        I know why you’re supposed to do it, I understand the logic, I know I have to, etc. But part of me wants to go “I am such a girly girl, it’s obvious, I feel ridiculous pointing it out.”

        WHICH IS WRONG, I KNOW, I AM A HORRIBLE PERSON FOR SAYING THAT.

        1. Camellia*

          You are not a horrible person for saying that! You are allowed to have all the feels you want.

        2. Joielle*

          I think that’s kind of the point, though! You’d never really thought about it before, you ended up having to do it, it feels a little ridiculous, but now it’s there and it’s maybe starting to seem more commonplace. Yeah, your pronouns are obvious and so are most people’s, but if we can all get in the habit of telling people what our pronouns are, the world will be a slightly friendlier place for people who need it.

      3. Obvious Girl*

        “This person clearly presents as a girl in every way imaginable. Best be on the safe side and use a gender neutral pronoun!” …. ok.

        1. Canarian*

          Not saying it’s the right or wrong thing to do, just something to consider if you opt out.

        2. Joielle*

          I mean, I personally know two people who present VERY femme but use the pronoun “they.” So it is a thing, yeah.

        3. cryptid*

          There it is.

          I’m sure if you ask 10 strangers on the street my gender they’ll give you the same answer, but that doesn’t make any of them right. Gender presentation isn’t intrinsically coupled with gender identity or pronoun preferences. There are only so many things I can do to my body to try to relieve my dysphoria and be read by others correctly, and there’s plenty of people who try to aggressively “correct” my stated gender. Your assumption that you’re “obviously” a girl is transphobic.

    4. KatieKate*

      Why the zero desire? I think of it as something like a normal nametag. Sure, maybe a lot of people know each other, but everyone having a nametag makes it easier for the people who don’t. I have pronouns in my email signature even as a cis woman. It’s just a thing to make life a little easier for someone who isn’t.

    5. Joielle*

      Any particular reason you’re opposed to the sticker? I’d focus on that – maybe say something when you’re offered a sticker like “oh, thanks – I don’t think I’ll put it up on my monitor because [reason], but I’ll make sure to keep an eye out for other people’s stickers.” Or maybe you could stick it on your door or cube wall, or on a little piece of paper and hang it on a bulletin board, or something else, if the placement is the issue?

      If it becomes a widespread thing that everyone’s doing and you don’t do it and don’t offer a reason, I think it could have negative repercussions – people might assume the worst. But if it’s just a few people here and there that use the stickers it probably wouldn’t be a big deal not to participate.

    6. Not Alison*

      I can’t speak to the repercussions part of your question, but would like to support your position. Like you, I am happy to respect the PGPs of others, but for myself have zero desire to have any pronouns visible on my monitor.

      If forced to put a pronoun on my monitor, I would probably overwrite whatever option is there with “Not Alison/Not Alison’s”.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        Is there a need to elaborate? This seems like one of those personal preference things, and there’s no need for someone to defend their preference.

      2. Obvious Girl*

        I can, but I shan’t. I don’t think Allison’s comment section is the place for it :)

    8. Anonymous Poster*

      This really depends on your workplace. Some companies really mean optional, others are joking and will hold it against you.

      Without a lot more knowledge about your workplace, this isn’t something we can answer. You have to gauge how strongly your company really feels about this.

      Also, don’t let the stickers just sit there afterwards. That’ll invite awkward questions of, “Oh, why isn’t this up yet?” It’s better off in a drawer you never open gathering dust, or somewhere out of sight and out of mind.

    9. Dragoning*

      So.

      If this was a thing that was reasonably common in my office,

      I, as a queer person, would feel immensely uncomfortable around you if you chose to opt out. I would not consider you safe. At all. You are making a point to opt out of something that would make other people feel safer and more comfortable.

      Would it have professional repercussions? I don’t know, but I would certainly avoid you whenever possible on projects and team things.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        That’s a lot of judgment to pass on someone for choosing not to put up a sticker.

        1. Dragoning*

          It’s not about the sticker. It’s about intentionally opting out of something designed to make queer people feel safer, and dismissing something important to my identity.

          I would be made feel conspicuously unwelcome.

          1. Anonymous Poster*

            I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don’t understand how your identity necessitates forcing other folks to put up identifying pronoun stickers, and why their refusal to opt in, for whatever reason, should have professional repercussions.

            1. Dragoning*

              I’m not saying it should or shouldn’t have professional repercussions, and I am forcing no one to do anything.

              But I am also allowed to take behavioral cues that make me feel unwelcome and unsafe just like anyone is.

              This is a behavioral cue that would make me feel unsafe.

            2. Katniss*

              For many of us, our experience has been that a straight, cis person refusing to be involved with things like this has done so because they have bigoted views about LGBT people. Maybe you don’t, but people have no way of knowing that, and some will choose to protect themselves and avoid interacting with you.

            3. Courageous cat*

              Right, some people choose to not self-identify and why I understand that that could feel unwelcome, it doesn’t mean that it actually is. I think this should be about personal choice and not pressuring anyone to identify anything in that regard.

          2. WellRed*

            But, if we’ve worked together for five years, and always been friendly, why would you suddenly feel unsafe? Genuinely curious.

            1. Dragoning*

              Because I don’t always come out to people immediately? In fact, I rarely do? And this is something that is a strong indicator that a whole part of my identity that they may not know of is unwelcome, and they were only friendly to me because they did not know.

              Or, even if they do know…now they have made it clear that it does, in fact, matter to them, and not in a positive way. And that changes things.

        2. Jules the Third*

          I’m totally cis (she / her), and I’d feel a little uncomfortable myself. I would default to a pretty immediate ‘be cautious around this person’ and would watch for evidence of actual bigotry.

          So, if most of the people in your company actually post these, then yes, you face professional repercussions from both gender-expansive coworkers and allies. Probably not from management.

          If most do not post them, then you’d be lost in the general crowd of ‘yep, can’t really trust any of them’.

          1. Tau*

            I think it’s fair to view it as a red flag (and I say this as a person who wouldn’t use the stickers myself, as mentioned downthread). I think the takeaway is that if you choose to opt out, you may want to do other things to communicate that you’re LGBTQ+ supportive to make clear that you’re not a bigot, you’re just not participating in this particular thing.

            1. Joielle*

              Agreed with this takeaway! It’s one of those things that could signal nothing or a lot, depending on the workplace culture and what else you know about the person.

            2. Admin of Sys*

              oh, good point! I’d be kind of twitchy with the pronoun stickers because I’m right in the middle of being not-okay with any of the choices right now. I think if I was in the above office, I’d just, idk, draw a sharpy ? over the options, but I can see other folks not wanting to do something like that.
              But I also would be inclined to think that someone w/out anything at all is disapproving of the idea of non gender conformity and folks should be wary. But if there’s a ‘I support lgbt’ sticker or something, that’d be different. (we used to have classes for folks about lgbt and safe spaces, and if you went through the class, you could post a little ‘safe space’ sticker on your desk, something like that’d be perfect)

              1. Tau*

                Many sympathies on the pronoun front, I have been there (and am sort of there again, gender identity is a never-ending abyss of why).

                I’m not out at the office, and having a set of pronoun stickers saying “she” would just be actively painful – not just being forced to misgender myself, but being forced to misgender myself on a continuing basis so that the evidence is in my line of sight constantly when I’m trying to work. There is not enough NO in the world. But I absolutely wouldn’t blame anyone for taking lack of participation as a warning sign (and would probably do so myself), because there’s definitely a lot of transphobic cis people out there who take offense at the idea that they could explicitly specify their pronouns.

                1. Dragoning*

                  Oh, I would certainly hate being expected to use them because I don’t want to out myself at work, but—

                  I would still take the lack of using them as a red flag.

              2. Mad Baggins*

                Totally agree! Why not just draw a little rainbow over the “pronouns” section, or cover it up with some other Pride-related sticker? I feel like that perfectly sends the message of “I am down with the idea of using people’s preferred pronouns and respect for sexual/gender diversity in general, I just don’t feel like announcing my gender/pronouns at my desk, thanks.”

      2. Thing1*

        It doesn’t sound like this is the case for the poster here, but as a cis queer person, I wouldn’t pass judgement on someone not putting one up. I know several genderqueer or non-binary folks who would be really uncomfortable with this, because they don’t want to be outed at work, but also don’t want to be forced to misgender themselves. While the real solution to this is to make a workplace where people are comfortable being out, the reality is that that’s not always the case. Or they can’t be out to their family and don’t want to risk it getting around, or whatever. Sometimes it’s their own safety that they’re protecting.

        1. Tau*

          I know several genderqueer or non-binary folks who would be really uncomfortable with this, because they don’t want to be outed at work, but also don’t want to be forced to misgender themselves. While the real solution to this is to make a workplace where people are comfortable being out, the reality is that that’s not always the case. Or they can’t be out to their family and don’t want to risk it getting around, or whatever. Sometimes it’s their own safety that they’re protecting.

          Thanks for pointing this out, as a kind-of-NB person in exactly this situation. Although I approve of pronoun stickers in principle, in practice they’d make my life very complicated.

        2. Jillociraptor*

          I used to work at a university where it was very common for everyone to introduce themselves and share their pronouns, but several nonbinary students expressed discomfort because they didn’t necessarily want to out themselves (both with the group, and with the public at large who might be in the meeting), they didn’t strongly identify with a gender, and/or they really hated having to have the side conversation at every meeting about whether their pronouns were “real.” It’s become kind of du rigeour in many of my circles, but in my time at the university a gross alt-right speaker was able to dox nonbinary folks using publicly-shared photos that included nametags with pronouns on them, so I’m pretty circumspect about how it works in practice.

          1. Jillociraptor*

            I should add: in the commenter’s case, I’m hoping that the LGBTQIA+ organization has significant representation from trans/nonbinary/GNC folks such that they’ve done the due diligence to ensure that this is a desired policy. If it is, I think it’s reasonable to ask for cis folks to sacrifice some comfort to bring about more equity within the company, rather than asking for trans/nonbinary/GNC folks to sacrifice their safety for the comfort of cis people.

      3. Little Duckie*

        I am queer and this would make me feel uncomfortable… because I’m also visually impaired and there’s a decent chance I’ll misread something or screw it up and people can be really sensitive about it. (I’m agender so I can’t judge how warranted it is because I don’t care). Stuff like this is why I avoid queer spaces and people who seem too gender nonconforming: I’m afraid of getting chewed out for not understanding some visual cue I didn’t see.

        I’m cool with asking, but the assumption on me to know first just makes me too nervous to talk.

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          Yeah. It takes grace and understanding on both sides. If some screws it up, a quick correction from the one side, a quick apology from the other, and moving on is the way to go. But the preemptive nature of this, and then anger and accusations of being a bigot, is why this whole thing makes me uncomfortable. It is why I wouldn’t want to participate.

          I’m not a mind reader. I also garble my words occasionally, and can’t hear well. And I get called a bigot and told I’m misgendering people for it, when I misspeak. It drives me batty.

      4. Usually silent*

        :/ I wouldn’t display such a sticker either, and if you all of a sudden felt ‘unsafe’ because of that, it’d be your issue. Why must others participate? You do it, and let others be. Noone has to play along with you if they don’t want to! My job as a colleague of yours would be to treat you with respect (regardless of how you present yourself!), do my job, help you with your job if necessary, be pleasant to work with, etc… And if you were to shut me out as a result of not participating in something that should be optional, you’d be the terrible coworker/manager, not me.

        1. Dragoning*

          I would feel less respected by you because of your refusal to participate in something that would make me feel safe.

          1. Usually silent*

            Feelings often get others in trouble; they don’t always reflect reality. I still wouldn’t display the sticker, and I wouldn’t respect you any less as a fellow human. Judge me based on my treatment of you, not your unproven feelings.

        1. Dragoning*

          I expressed my personal reaction to such a thing. “Unsafe” is not a stretch to how I would feel.

    10. Thing1*

      If they’re really aware of the issues, I would think that it would be actually optional. In the conversations that I have with other college faculty about talking to students about their pronouns, it’s pretty much always mentioned that some people won’t be comfortable sharing for whatever reason (maybe they don’t want to be out but also don’t want to misgender themselves, for example), and that that should be respected, and so it should never be required. I don’t have any experience outside of academia, but maybe you have a sense of how much your company has thought through this? If it seems like they haven’t put a lot of thought into it, personally I’d be more concerned about how “optional” it really is than if it seems like they really know what they’re talking about. Of course, even in the official line is that it’s fine not to have it, that doesn’t preclude individuals making judgements. I hope the group is careful about how they present this!

    11. Elena*

      Act in congruence with your cconvictions. If it makes you uncomfortable, stand firm and don’t engage. Only your boss can fire you.
      Also doing so will help others opt out too, if they feel uncomfortable.

      Reasonable people won’t cause you repercussions for not participating.

  43. nep*

    This morning I hit ‘send’ on an application for *that* job opening. You know the one. You read the job description, and it’s basically your biography. You wonder how they know you so well. You submit and you fantasize that the hiring manager is going to e-mail back within minutes gasping: ‘Where have you been all my life?!’ And an offer and contract will ensue, because this job was made for you and you for it. And all the other rejections were all so you could be freed up for this moment.
    Yeah–that’s the kind of morning I’ve had. And while I’ve put all my documents in the recycle bin (while of course keeping a copy of the very detailed job ad), I’m moving on. This afternoon I’ll be back at the job boards. Meanwhile there is this crazy giddiness in the early moments because while your application is just out there yet to be reviewed there is a chance…………………
    (And it truly does encourage me to see that there are still great openings like this that pop up from time to time.)
    Good luck, all job-hunters. Chin up and keep at it.
    Peace

    1. nep*

      P.S. A couple aspects of the job scare the ever-loving hell out of me. In a good way.
      All in all it’s been a great experience. I learned a lot preparing this application package. And a long-time colleague very graciously gave me some valuable tough love and advice.

    2. Hellanon*

      I posted a job ad on Indeed yesterday and, from resume review, have identified 3 really strong candidates, a bunch of maybes, and a lot of people whose experience/skills are a long, long way from what I am looking for. And I emailed those 3 within a few hours, if not minutes… although not quite that breathlessly, I will say! I hope it all goes well for you!

    3. Courageous cat*

      I know what you mean. I’m in the final stages of interviewing for a job like this. This one isn’t quite tailor-made for my current qualifications (I have seen those too and it kills me to not be considered for them), but it’s tailor-made for my IDEAL ones. I know all too well that I should move on mentally and think no more about it, but I want it real bad and it’s kind of nauseating.

      1. nep*

        It really does take over one’s whole being, doesn’t it? And after such a long, involved process you feel like, how could it possibly go any other way? But, then, there are so many unknowns.
        Wishing you all the best. Final stages–great to get that far. Keep us posted.

  44. MaybeParanoid?*

    I’m in a weird place right now and I think I just need an non-connected sounding board to let me know if I am just being paranoid…

    I have been at my current job coming up on three years, for the last two years I have been the only person responsible for scheduling and completing a portion of our workload that historically has been done by two people. I get limited feedback and it is difficult (aka: almost impossible) to setup any kind of meeting with my manager. Said manager has a proven record of not addressing issues in the moment and letting them build up until he is so upset/unhappy with an employee that he will fire them with little to no notice (happened to another professional right before I started and again two years ago…hence me being the only person working on this specific aspect of our work).

    My last “performance review” was not really a performance review so much as it was a bunch of little things that were irritating him (full disclosure: some really stupid mistakes that I was making and I am trying to slow down and stop making them) – but since then whenever I do have a mistake (ie: missed changing a date, small spelling error, etc) I am worried that he is unhappy and I will be fired.

    Recently we had a staff meeting where we had an hour and half long discussion on policies and procedures and a significant portion of time was spent discussing “being on time” – I am here at my desk at the start time…and if I am late I will stay late and make up the time, this is not a “butts in seat” kind of position (not forward facing, I don’t have to answer phones, greet clients, etc) – it’s becoming increasingly obvious that he has an issue with me arriving right before 8:00 instead of 10 minutes early. And there have been more then one passive aggressive comment from his daughter this week (she is still training and will be writing her accreditation exam later this year) that are really making me think I am working on borrowed time here.

    This has gotten really long…I’ll finish up with a couple of questions:

    I have come to realize this hasn’t been the most healthy place for me to be working and I have started to really doubt my abilities – how does one overcome that when looking for a new job?

    And it’s not crazy to listen to my gut and be proactive with a job search – right?

    If you made it to the end of this thanks! :)

    1. Not Maeby But Surely*

      It’s not crazy to listen to your gut. I think the longer you stay in a toxic work enviroment, the harder it can be to leave because the negativity (esp. towards onesself) gets more ingrained. To counteract it, I would try positive self-talk. Point out to yourself when you’ve done something well. Focus on those things. Make a list of accomplishments or positive traits of yours and write them down. Continue to work on the things that need improvement. Have a standby phrase when you do make mistakes, such as, “oh, well – I made a mistake. I’m human. I’ll learn from it and move on.” Good luck! You’ll get through it!

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      It’s never crazy to be proactive with a job search. Right now, you don’t have to apply for every job that’s remotely relevant – you can target the ones you really want. And you don’t have to accept an offer out of desperation right now. You still have the flexibility to look for the right job, not just any job. Take advantage of that!

    3. WellRed*

      yeah, his daughter making passive aggressive comments at you is a huge red flag to me. Plus, he sounds really unreasonable to work for.

  45. Emily S.*

    General Q.:

    What are you most looking forward to this summer at work?
    Anything fun or exciting coming up with your job/work?

    1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      My work doesn’t change that much from season to season, but I love that the sun is still up when I leave the office. Much less depressing than leaving the office in the dead of winter when it’s dark and cold.

    2. Mimmy*

      Working with the high school kids again – it’s a program we do for two weeks in late July/early August. It’s a nice break from my usual routine because my normal instructional discipline is not included in the program. Plus, last year I was paired with another staff who did most of the work, giving me little to do. This year, I’ll likely be paired with a different person. Hopefully she’ll give me something more substantive!

    3. Bibliovore*

      I know this sounds crazy but I really, really, really like this round of summer interns. Bright, passionate, and we are working on a fabulous project that will be a jewel in their portfolios. (this might be the steroids talking, just started a round for asthma and bronchitis)

      1. Emily S.*

        That’s terrific. It doesn’t sound crazy!

        I hope they continue to be great interns for you, and do well on the project. Good luck!

    4. Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farms*

      I am really excited that I have a new job where I don’t have to cover up/wear a uniform, and so I can dress comfortably no matter how hot it gets! It’s the little things…:)

      1. Emily S.*

        Being able to dress comfortably is a BIG thing, as far as I’m concerned.

        Good for you, and good luck with your new position!

    5. Windchime*

      Nothing really exciting about my job in general, but it’s really fun working downtown in the summer. I work in an area that has good food trucks, so often a group of us will walk down to a popular area that has a half-dozen food trucks, some seating areas, and tables where people play chess, etc. That’s a lot of fun.

      Also, a business in our building hosts an event all summer on Wednesdays that features a different band each week, food trucks, little freebie giveaways, etc. They set up tables and chairs in the little courtyard next to the building so people can come down and eat lunch while listening to the band. It’s very festive and a fun way to mingle with the other tenants of the building.

  46. Bob Franklin*

    Last week, supervisor B in my office asked me to perform a task (make name tags). I communicated with supervisor B to gather information regarding how they would like the task to be executed, and finished making the tags this past Monday. Yesterday (Thursday), my immediate supervisor, supervisor A, added the task to my ongoing list of tasks, with a few specifics that were different from what I had already done several days ago. The name tags I made were not very different at all from what supervisor A was looking for, so I marked the task complete and moved on. Today, supervisor A saw the name tags and insisted I destroy them and make them exactly the way they had specified. Supervisor A has otherwise been having some poor communication with me recently and has been getting flustered at me for not doing exactly as they were hoping/expecting, even though they often present solutions to tasks as examples or suggestions rather than “do it this way.”

    Am I doing something wrong here? It has previously not been expected that literally all of my work needs to go through supervisor A, and supervisor A and B are both on equal authoritative grounds, so I’m not sure why supervisor A would supersede supervisor B. I’m also not sure how to navigate the issue of supervisor A not being specific with what they want until after I’ve already finished a task.

    1. Teapot librarian*

      I think I would have gone to Supervisor A when they added the task to your list and said something like “Supervisor B asked me to do this already, and I had completed the task to their specifications. Your specifications are a little different. This is what I did [show them one of the name tags]. Is this satisfactory?” I wonder if A is just prickly because they didn’t know you’d done it to B’s specifications before A had given you the assignment.

      1. BigSigh*

        Oh interesting thought. Bob, is it likely there’s tension between the two? Maybe this recent name tag frustration is more about them than you. Did the other examples feel similar?

    2. nonegiven*

      So maybe you guys can get together and decide how this needs to be done and when you have, y’all let me know.

      BTDT

    3. BRR*

      I don’t know enough about the details but I might have not assumed the name tags were close enough.

      In regards to dealing with an unclear boss, Alison’s new book has a couple of pages talking about this.

    4. DCR*

      Do you follow their suggestion/example? If not, I would start doing so. Even if that is how they are presented, it seems this supervisor wants you to use that format.

  47. Teapot librarian*

    What a week! And almost none of the trauma had anything to do with my Hoarder Employee. In fact, I even had a good moment where I had the perfect opening to make a comment about his excessive cologne. (“I’m just going to close my door since your cologne is bothering me.”) I can’t help but be disappointed though that he actually did something I asked him to do, in the timeframe I asked him for it, since I was hoping (like a bad boss, I realize) that he wouldn’t do it and I could discipline him for it. There are two other tasks in the same email, so we’ll see what happens with those. I have to admit I was expecting, come Monday morning, to have to ask him where the deliverables are to have him respond that he hadn’t gotten my email. At least now I know he has read it.
    In the meantime, I have a new employee starting on Monday and I am so excited. She is going to pick up some of HE’s slack and she shares my vision for our organization. Hooray!

  48. KAB*

    Has anyone had success with “managing up” in the past? Any tips on how to politely and professionally do it?

    I have a strained relationship with my manager and I *think* the root issue is that she actively tries to stay out of the loop on my projects (citing her own busyness)… but then gets very upset if she sees me working on something she wasn’t expecting– I’ve been yelled at on rare occasion over this. We use project management software that I have open all day and update as I go from project to project. We also have weekly one on one meetings where I try to lay out everything I plan to work on that week but she has literally interrupted me in the past to say “I don’t want these meetings to just be a list of what you’re working on” and that she’d rather brainstorm things. Which is fine, but… clearly she actually WANTS to know what I’m working on when she gets upset.

    I’m considering proposing a weekly or biweekly plan where I lay out what I think I will be working on and when and just emailing it to her as an FYI so that I can cite that if she gets upset at what I’m working on. Talking directly with her about this doesn’t work very well, unfortunately– she pretends like she doesn’t get upset and tells me she doesn’t care about how I work on things as long as I get them done… but then cited my poor project management skills on my review so she DOES remember. I also tried once to walk her through my logic while she was upset once and that went REALLY poorly– she just got flustered and stormed off. Help!

    1. CatCat*

      She sounds like a mess. I would not propose sending her the weekly/biweekly email. I would just do it and keep it very, very short.

      “Hey Boss, Just want to keep you in the loop on what projects I am working on during the next couple weeks:
      – Sharpening vorpal swords
      – Painting the roses red
      – Packaging the shoes and ships and sealing wax
      Best,
      KAB”

      I guess she might come back and say not to send her the email though. Worth a shot.

      You could also get a big whiteboard or piece of paper for your work space and write “Projects” at the top and write what you’re working on there. If it’s something she can see, maybe it will give her something to check first before flipping her lid.

      And if she yells at you, that’s totally not okay. Calmly, “Please do not yell at me.”

      Your boss sucks though and there’s a strong chance she isn’t going to change. Sorry.

    2. AdeTree*

      I feel you. My manager doesn’t do the exact things as yours, but he has a tendency to be completely hands-off, barely checks in since he’s an anti-meeting crusader, and then jumps in at the last moment to make negative comments or try to make changes that completely overhaul projects that are close to finished. He has also accused me of going behind his back when I take initiative and even gave me the silent treatment for a while (I still haven’t forgiven him totally for that, and that’s a large part of why our relationship is strained). The whole thing drives me crazy. I have yet to find a solution – currently have convinced him to write up together a quarterly plan of priorities for my work and to do a biweekly check-in. He’s cancelled the last few though… Unfortunately, the advice on AAM is often to look for a new job, which is not possible for me right now. Hope others chime in with advice.

      1. friday afternoon fever*

        Haha, I came here to say KAB should probably start looking for a different job! It sounds like the issue isn’t that your boss is very busy or well-intentioned but forgetful or something else that is at heart a process question—i.e. how do we create a new/different/better process that will work with these complications—but that your boss has a difficult personality. It doesn’t sound like something you can manage away/around long term.

    3. Kathenus*

      Tough situation. I would probably lean towards the weekly/biweekly plan email. Maybe when you send out the first one, a very brief description along the lines of ‘this is to keep you in the loop on what I’m working on, please let me know if you’d prefer this information in a different format’.

      Or, preemptively go to her and say you’d like to put together a weekly summary and plan of your activities, does she have a preferred method she’d like you to use?

      You know her best, as to which approach might be most effective. Good luck.

    4. AnonJ*

      I think it’s great that you’re at least having weekly meetings as a starting point. Maybe a more formal structure to your meetings with her would help and get both of you what you want from them. You want to know and enumerate what your focus is for the next week, she wants to brainstorm issues. If you have 45 minutes for instance, maybe your meeting agenda could be:

      5 minutes – review of prior week’s “action items” This is a quick review of what’s done and not done. Keep an ongoing list. No need to get into great discussion. It’s done or not, and if not, a quick reason why (X had to take priority, Z didn’t get this task done so I could do mine.)
      15 minutes – recap of open projects, status, upcoming deadlines, roadblocks (some projects are on track and need only a minute, highlight those with deadlines and roadblocks for further discussion), keep a list of action items
      20 minutes – strategize/brainstorm those upcoming deadlines and roadblocks you highlighted, document decisions and action items
      5 minutes – summarize/outline your upcoming work/tasks/action items based on the above

      You might present this proposed agenda to her as a way to make the most of time for both of you and keep you both on the same page as far as priorities, deadlines and project status goes. You can present this as a possibility and ask if you might try it for your weekly meetings for a period, then adjust if it’s not working out, or ask if she has a different preference for accomplishing the same goals in your weekly check-ins.

      It sounds like with your boss, it will be important to create a record and share that after each meeting. THAT is where the weekly email you propose comes in. In this scenario it becomes a document that summarizes the high level discussions, decisions, and action items that came from the meeting. You then refer back to that in each subsequent meeting to identify where things are on track or need more attention.

      A structure like this might help you avoid complaints about your project management skills (because you’re working collaboratively to adjust to changing priorities and circumstances and you’re following through on those identified goals,) and keeping it professional, structured and consistent is less likely to result in her becoming “upset” and flustered and storming off if you can simply say you’re doing the work based on the plan you’d cooperatively made.

      I hope this helps and wish you luck!

  49. A Nickname for AAM*

    Hi everyone! I recently left a job and I really just need reassurance that it was the right thing to do.

    When I started the job, I was reporting to a nightmare boss. She was squatting on a huge chunk of my job responsibilities, so I was unable to do a lot of the things I needed to do to do my job correctly. She stopped me from hiring, so we were perpetually-short staffed. She stopped me from purchasing, so we did not have the correct equipment we needed to do my job. She put me on a performance improvement plan on my fourth day in office, she stalked the security cameras so she could punish anyone going to her boss for help, and she told me I was an unlikeable person who needed to improve my personality. She did this to everyone, and eventually she was fired.

    Once she was gone, however, my direct reports turned on me. One person did maintenance for my area, and refused to speak to me even if he walked past me, instead going into my (new) boss’s office to “tattle” on things I allegedly did wrong. (I didn’t do any maintenance knowing he did this, so my nose was clean.) When I asked him to do anything, he would tell me “That’s not necessary,” and “That doesn’t need to be done,” even when it did need to be done, and I got stuck running around doing cleanup during busy times because stuff was broken. My other direct reports quickly started refusing to follow any direction I gave them. They had uniforms, they wouldn’t wear them, they would tell me “No” if I asked. They had safety checks to perform, they refused, saying “No.” They were having personal conversations when they were required to be performing safety checks, they said it wasn’t a problem and continued talking. Things like that.

    It then escalated once we hit our busy season. I’d ask them to do something simple, like move over, and they’d snap back at me, “If you want to do my job, go ahead, I’ll quit and go home,” or “You can’t tell me what to do,” or “I can take as long of a lunch as I’d like since lunch breaks aren’t paid,” even when I needed them back to perform specific, time sensitive tasks for customers who were waiting for them to arrive from their extra-long lunch. At one point all of them were standing in a circle, publicly and loudly mocking me and the things I’d asked them to do (mandatory parts of their job, as written in their job description.) I spoke to my boss about this and she scheduled a meeting with them for the following week.

    Within two days, the situation had escalated to the point where random subordinates, from other departments who interacted with mine, were in my face yelling at me over stuff they felt I should or should not be doing. I called HR who was on vacation and didn’t call me back, I called my boss’s boss (who said “Well, that’s why it’s called WORK, it sounds like they’re upset you made some changes”), and we shut my department down for a talking-to. My boss told them they needed to be cooperative, do their jobs at least to the bare minimum (show up on time, wear staff shirt), and be polite.

    That night, a bunch of them started accusing me (via text message, at 10 pm) of scheduling them to work times they never said they could work, so they would not be showing up. They had all refused to fill out the availability sheets I gave them, and instead gave availability verbally, so they could lie and say they weren’t showing up because they never agreed to work. When we got to work the next workday, they refused to follow any directions, continuing to snap at me that “I don’t have to answer to you,” and “You can’t tell me what to do,” in front of customers and other staff. Finally, one of them started snapping at me “I’m 41 years old and you can’t tell me what to do,” and shortly after, someone from another department got up in my face, screaming at me that I couldn’t tell HIM what to do. My staff overheard this, stopped what they were doing, and started yelling at me, “You can’t tell him what to do,” then OOH-ing and catcalling like they were watching a schoolyard fight.

    At this point, I gave up and resigned. But now I feel guilty, like I should have stuck it out longer, or tried harder, or called HR to appeal more, or even attempted to fire the staff who were being openly insubordinate even though it would have left us too short-staffed to operate. My husband thinks that, since they were more essential to operations than I was, that I would have been left with the blame and that my boss would have blocked the terminations to keep things operational, which would have left me with no authority in a toxic environment.

    Right now I feel like a failure, and I just want reassurance that I did the right thing, I guess.

    1. gecko*

      You did the right thing. That sounds horrible. In the wake of a big change you’re always going to feel shaken up–even if it’s the right thing to do. You didn’t give up; it was not right for you, and you were put into the deeeeeep end of management WHILE being undermined by your manager.

    2. CatCat*

      The whole place sounds like a dumpster fire with a nest of bees swarming around it sitting on the deck of a damaged ship ready to go down. So, yeah, probably best that you rescued yourself from that situation.

    3. AnonGD*

      Honestly, I think you did the right thing here. Sure, if it was one or two bad apples among your direct reports you could have fired them– but it sounds like they ALL turned on you. The only thing I can think of is that maybe you should have fired the direct report that started the trend if I’m reading it correctly that this started with one person and spread.

      Other than that I think you can chalk it up to a dysfunctional work environment created by your old boss. I have to wonder if they were accustomed to not doing certain things they should have when she was there and they wanted to make sure it stayed that way by bullying you.

      1. President Porpoise*

        At the same time though- I’m surprised that all on them turned on you if you didn’t do anything to provoke it. I suspect we’re not getting the full picture.

        I’m sorry you ended up in that position OP. Pick yourself up, be honest to yourself about lessons learned, and move on to greener pastures.

        1. A Nickname for AAM*

          I did “provoke” it a little. What happened was they had been operating in violation of industry safety norms and operational regulations, and I started operating in line with them because we were failing internal audits. I knew they weren’t going to like it, so I tried to do it in a way that minimized its effect on them. I tried to phase in these changes slowly, but we had a high-risk seasonal program that started and had a lot of program-specific best practices to follow, so that forced my hand a little in that I had to implement all of the safety changes effective then to be compliant.

          However, they felt I was wasting their time and that the “old” way was better, so they started talking over me so newcomers wouldn’t learn the “new” ways, directing people to ignore me, shouting me down as I instructed others in how to do things, and throwing away some of the new paperwork we needed to be keeping/following under the new regulations. (I found my supervisor’s clipboard face down in a puddle, for example, papers all ruined.) They also stormed my boss’s office to complain that I had interfered with their ability to do their job the way they wanted to do it, and were looking to contact HR to get me to stop implementing the new changes because they were insulted I hadn’t asked for their permission before making said changes.

          1. Ann O.*

            That doesn’t sound like you provoked it. That sounds like a thing that needed to happen, but that your company didn’t proactively support you as also needed to happen. Probably a good chunk of them needed to be fired and replaced to force compliance.

            You definitely should not have stuck it out longer, though. You were in a horrible situation and without the ability to fire people as punishment, it sounds unlikely to change.

    4. The Commoner*

      Oh my, I am so sorry for you!

      There is no excuse for their behavior. None. Their behavior was absurd and abusive. Because management would not address it, it’s clear that the culture wouldn’t have changed. That’s why leaving was good for you. You owe them nothing.

    5. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Um, were you trying to manage animals? Seriously, the whole team needed to either get their acts together or be fired. HR dropped the ball, your management dropped the ball, and you absolutely did the right thing in getting out of there. Let someone else sort out that mess.

    7. Ali G*

      Holy Hell. This problem was way bigger than you – and you did the right thing. These things don’t happen overnight. It sounds like these people are used to getting their way and management let them. You tried to do new things and they turned on you and everyone in a position of authority let them.
      You did the right thing. I am sorry you had to go through that.

    8. LCL*

      You did fail. Your failure was that you couldn’t manage people that you were given no authority or support to manage. Failure isn’t always the fault of the person who failed, sometimes we are put into situations that won’t work. You also did the right thing by leaving. Your success was in realizing things weren’t going to change. Really, your manager is told the group is being insubordinate so schedules a meeting the following week? And boss’ boss just says deal with it?

    9. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      …dude, I’m so sorry for you. I don’t blame you for resigning at all! Your staff was in open rebellion against you, and management didn’t back you up – I’m surprised you actually didn’t leave sooner.

      I’m wishing you the best of luck on your job search.

    10. Jules the Third*

      To manage effectively, you have to actually have and use managerial authority. That means firing people who refuse job requirements, like not doing maintenance, not wearing a uniform or not doing safety checks. Sure, the team was *horrible*, but I see some holes, some actions you did not take, in this story, that *might* have changed the outcome.

      By the time your team was catcalling you, it was too late, and your only choice was to resign. It is *possible* (but not assured, it is VERY hard to change culture) that you would have had a different outcome if you’d been able to actively manage the maintenance guy by:
      1) Telling him that you thought those tasks were needed, and it was his job to do them, so *he* needed to get to it.
      2) If he continued to refuse, then step back and have a separate meeting with him where you say, ‘I am your boss; part of your job is to do the things I think are needed. If you can’t do that, you will be fired. So we’re going to PIP for 60 days and then assess your continued employment.’
      3) Following through even if it makes things shorthanded

      Your bosses did let you down by not coaching you through this, and not shutting him down when he came in to ‘tattle’. I can’t tell if you felt that you didn’t have managerial authority, or that your next-level mgr was undermining it, because I don’t see any evidence of you going beyond ‘because I told you to do it!’ in exercising your authority. Your story really sounds like you were a first time manager who did not feel comfortable with the full range of managerial authority including firing. You can get by with that in a functional workplace, but it ends up disastrous in the non-functional workplace you were in.

      If you take managerial roles in the future, you need to get comfortable with using your authority.

      1. A Nickname for AAM*

        The facility was exceptionally short-staffed. I had sent her some corrective action forms for approval and asked for help in calling in favors to get some temporary replacements in place so I could process terminations (I was actively working to replace some of them by hiring, but it was going slower than planned) and she did not approve them because she felt people would quit if I wrote them up.

        This was reinforced when two staff “quit” a shift, she responded, “Oh no! But they didn’t quit ALL their shifts, right? They still work here for (program)? We need them!”

        1. A Nickname for AAM*

          Oh and to clarify, there’s a protocol at my work in dealing with employees. Basically, you have to ask them to do something, then explain very nicely WHY they need to do something, then try to sell them on your new protocol and convince them to do what you’re asking, then ask if there’s anything preventing them from doing it and if there’s anything you can do to help them meet that expectation. At that point, once everything’s been eliminated, you’d pursue corrective action by consulting with both your boss and HR (depending on the particular office’s specific rules, they do vary from office to office.)

          Once you get to the corrective action phase, the employee would be allowed a rebuttal against you by saying, “Well I didn’t feel respected, well she used a negative ‘tone’ in asking me, she wasn’t polite enough, she raised her voice, she doesn’t smile enough,” yada yada, in which case you would then be on the hook with your supervisor as you tried to change the way you manage as a way of eliminating obstacles for your employees to feel “welcomed and part of the team.” Even if the particular employee did not feel welcomed because they were doing awful work, you’d have to make concessions to meet them where they are before pursuing further action against them. And of course, if they were an old timer, had connections in the community, were popular with the customers, this would be even harder and you’d be under intense scrutiny for being unable to make it work.

          1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

            Oh no… you can see that this policy is nuts and would never work, right?

            I’m all for team empowerment and largely aim to let my teams run themselves (while I guide and help with roadblocks) but this is the equivalent of letting a 3 year old set all of the house rules.

    11. Half-Caf Latte*

      I was reading this and assuming this was a staff that skewed very young. Like high-school young.

      And then there was the 41 year old.

      I think this is an example of how toxic workplaces can warp your thinking. This whole place was a mess.

    12. Jemima Bond*

      Oooof. I’m impressed you stuck it out as long as you did! Those people sound like a nightmare – running away (screaming, I assume) was the only sensible option.

    13. Emily S.*

      Judging from your version of events, you tried your hardest to do all the right things, and handle your job as best you could.

      The organization seems to have had much bigger issues than anything you could have fixed. Frankly, I admire your efforts to turn around the situation, in such a rough work environment.

      Your decision to resign was completely reasonable. Try not to feel guilty, because this was most certainly not your fault. It might sound crazy, but endings like this can be a gift, and an opportunity to move on, to the next chapter of your career, whatever that will be. (And listen, I know that sounds trite, but I mean it, I’ve come back from horrible things and made it out whole.)

      It’s always disappointing when a job doesn’t work out, but in this case, be grateful you got away from there. And know that, while it may take a while, you WILL find something else, a position that is hopefully a better fit, at a better organization. Have confidence in yourself.

    14. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Adding to the choir, good for you for getting out of this mess.

      The only people who are successful in dysfunctional environments are dysfunctional people themselves. There was no way for 1 person to change a culture like the one you described.

      You are not a failure, unless you want to say you failed at embracing this level of crazy and chaos. In every sense, you succeeded!

      Go forth and find yourself a place to work that is not filled with lunatics and psychopaths. One day very soon you will realize that getting out was the best option.

    15. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I am so sorry that you had to deal with this. You absolutely did the right thing by leaving. Best wishes to you, A Nickname for AAM

  50. Dug myself a hole*

    For those of you that work in the fields of or related to history/anthropology, how did you get your foot in the door? During my undergrad years, I didn’t have the ability to do unpaid internships or field schools, I had to work to survive, for reasons. Then the economy tanked and I continued to work in an unrelated field because it paid well and work could actually be found. However, I’m at a point where I’m going to be making some big life changes and I’d like to also get my career back on the path I’d originally laid out. However, those changes that need to happen, require money. I don’t want to give up on my dream, but it feels like I’m fighting a losing battle. I can’t afford to go back to school at the moment to get a masters (too much debt). Maybe I’m just frustrated and not seeing clearly. Any advice would be welcome. Thanks in advance!

    1. TheWanderingRabbit*

      I graduated with a BA in History back in 2011, and totally hear you about the economy. It was a terrible time to look for jobs. Like you, I also didn’t do any internships over the summer because I needed to work. I’m not sure what kind of work you’d like to do, but I knew after graduation I wanted to work in public education/museums. Getting your foot in the door probably is going to be very contingent on what kind of history/anthro entities exist where you live. I’ll give you my personal experience with museums, which I imagine is going to be pretty typical for most history/anthro type work. I worked my way into the museum field first by working as a manager in a museum’s membership department. It wasn’t glamorous, and I hated life for the first year. However, the museum I worked for almost exclusively hired from internal departments when any position would come available. I eventually did make my way into a public ed position and remained there for about 1.5 years. I probably wouldn’t have been hired for this job had I not been already familiar with this museum’s curriculum, culture, etc. due to my work in membership. If you can get your foot in the door in any role, it may lead to other positions that may be more up your alley. I hope that’s helpful. On another note, I am thankful everyday that I didn’t do my Masters in History. From my experience, a Master’s was a waste of money in the museum field unless it is for something more specific like Conservation/Preservation or something in leadership, education, development, etc. If this also helps, my FT public ed position paid $19,500 back in 2011-2013. The pay in these fields can be miserably low, and a Master’s wouldn’t probably increase that salary by much. I’m going to guess that the people in the same position now probably make around $25,000 a year.

    3. Basia, also a Fed*

      I worked as an archaeologist for over 20 years. In most states, there is a fair amount of work in cultural resource management. This generally involves travelling around doing archaeology for proposed projects. The downside is that it involves a lot of travel, but it usually pays pretty well. To find these jobs, Google State Historic Preservation Office in the state in which you live, and there should be a list of consulting companies that do this work. This is one of the few fields in which cold resumes often work – when I needed to hire 10 people for a big project, I would pull all of the recent resumes I received.

      This is going to sound strange, but state Department of Transportation often hire a ton of interns to do archaeology for their projects. They usually pay well. In the state in which I work, they can’t find enough interns to fill their well-paying slots.

      Finally, I understand the perspective that you shouldn’t go to graduate school just for the sake of it. But this is one field in which it can make a big difference. There are federal regulations which require archaeologist to have master’s degrees to do certain kinds of work (most archaeology in this country is done because it is required by federal regulations – I’ll put a link to the requirements as a reply). Sometimes these cultural resource management companies will pay for it. I arranged for the company I worked for to pay for master’s degrees for four people who worked for me.

      Good luck!

      2. Dug myself a hole*

        Thank you for the response and the helpful information, Basia! I would actually like to work in CRM and do field work (or lab work). I’m very used to traveling, as I do that for my current industry. However, every ad I’ve seen, even for entry level positions, list having done at least one field school as a requirement. Unfortunately, I was never able to do that. Would you have ever hired someone without having completed one? That’s awesome you got your company to pay for those employees’ masters degrees. I’d really like to get mine, I’d planned on doing public archaeology and museum studies. I’ve been holding off because I’d like to have my undergrad debt paid off first, before taking on more, and I also wanted to get some field experience before taking that plunge.

        1. Basia, also a Fed*

          I definitely would have hired someone without a field school if I had a big project and needed a bunch of field techs. Your best bet would be for a big Phase I archaeological identification survey – I’d generally want experience for a Phase II evaluation investigations or Phase III data recovery excavations. Like I said, this is one of the few fields where you can just sent a bunch of resumes to all companies on the SHPO’s list. Right now there are a bunch of big pipeline surveys going on around the country – I believe there are a lot of jobs there, although I’ve never personally worked in that industry.

          There is a website called shovelbums that a lot of people have had success with. And I don’t know where you are, but I just searched for “cultural resource management jobs” and got a lot of hits. I looked at some of them, and not all required a field school.

          If you want to try a different route, check out the Student Conservation Association’s website – they have a ton of opportunities. They have a stipend instead of salary, but everyone I know who have done this got a real boost in their career.

          1. Dug myself a hole*

            I seriously cannot thank you enough for the info and for the insight that I’m not doomed because I don’t have a field school under my belt. It sounds like I just need to go for it and start sending out resumes. It’s funny you mentioned pipeline, that’s actually the industry I’ve been working in. It’s been several years now, but I’d previously been told that the gas companies were taking their archaeological work in-house (I’ve not seen an ad for related work on any of their career pages I’ve visited though) instead of using outside CRM firms. Pipeline is a strange industry, much of who is hiring for what is passed down by word of mouth or by sending out cold resumes. I’ll dig a little deeper there and see if I can get any more information. I remember shovelbums! It’s been a while since I’ve check out the site and I’m actually pleasantly surprised to hear they’re still around. I’ll definitely be looking into all the resources you’ve given me. From the bottom of my heart, thank you!

  51. Madison*

    Advice please!! I work in customer service for a big plant. I love my job and my coworkers and even my customers. I am still young and very eager to learn new skills. I’ve gotten a couple of raises since starting but my job duties have remained the same. They have just let me know they want to move me into a job working in quality control and safety. I’m excited at the idea of learning new skills and also moving into a area with more room to move up. My concern is that the customer service area is very organized and put together. We run a tight ship. The quality department is kind of a mess and procedures for safety will need to be written for every department. (That will be my first job in the new position). From everyone’s experience, would you recommend changing to a job with less stability if it meant more skills and more room to move up? Or would you stay in the comfortable position and hope for a raise every couple of years?

    1. writelhd*

      I think it really depends on how interested you are in the new subject matter. If it motivates you, that’s cool. If it doesn’t and it’s just for the money and prestige, it might burn you out. Depends on the kind of person you are, but that’s my take anyway.

      I also think it’s kind of ironic that the *quality assurance* department….is the one that is disorganized mess.

      1. Madison*

        Exactly lol QA is great at handling the quality of material but it’s the flow inside the plant that needs help. I’m very interested in the safety aspect and am hoping to be able to lean more into that. The only work I did before this was temp labor staffing and safety orientations and overall overseeing of employees was a big part of it. I really enjoyed working in that field but when I was 19 I signed a non compete with a big staffing agency. It lasts for 5 years from my last work date and coversa 50 mile area of all locations (my whole state and the state below me). So I have 3.5 more years before that’s over. Uggghhhhh

        1. nonprofit director*

          If you are interested in the subject matter, I think it sounds like a great opportunity to learn more and demonstrate your value to the organization. In my experience, it’s these types of *stretch* moves that result in career growth. Also, if you say no, they may not consider you for opportunities outside of customer service again.

        2. Lirael*

          That sounds like a really broad non-compete, especially for someone entry-level. That seems very unlikely to be found enforceable (but IANAL). I can’t tell if that’s constraining your choices now, but if you’re trying to work around the non-compete, it might be worth trying to fight it.

          The QA role sounds like something you’re interested in, so I would go for it! It’s not risk-free, and I’d be a bit concerned that the department is disorganized, but hopefully you’ll be able to help clean that up. Good luck!

    2. foolofgrace*

      If, in your current role, you continually get zero new duties, the time will come when those raises will stop — you’ll have reached the ceiling where it would be more cost effective for the company to replace you with someone who will work for less. Also, those who don’t move forward aren’t just stagnating, they get a reputation for just getting by and perhaps backsliding. Just something to take into consideration.

  52. newjobnewme*

    Brag post ahead: I got a new job! I get to leave behind my toxic workplace, with a coworker who thinks it’s okay to be shitty to racial minorities and people with mental health disabilities, and a team lead who doesn’t see any issue with that.

    I’m a little sad because I did like my supervisor and the director of the organization a lot. They are genuinely good people attempting to change the culture, and I know they liked me and wanted to keep me on. But I’m leaving with a good reference for a $12k raise (with comparable/better perks and benefits) for doing basically the same thing (which I like), but with more developmental opportunities. So, sorry not sorry, I guess.

    3. AdeTree*

      Congratulations. Unfortunately, change doesn’t happen overnight and it sounds like you are headed to a much better opportunity overall!

  53. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Hello! The Ask a Manager podcast is returning on June 20 — now produced/distributed by How Stuff Works!

    If you’re interested in having your problem/question/letter featured on the show, please email me your letter at podcast@askamanager.org. The advantage of being on the show versus in the blog is that we get to actually talk through your situation, with clarifying questions, back and forth, etc. so it can be a more … robust solution to your problem. (And I’ve had a ton of women on the show and for some reason very few men, so I especially encourage it if you’re a man — although I am happy to have more women too!)

    1. Rat Racer*

      I find that my energy ebbs and flows. I will hit a state of flow where I’m totally energized, feel like super-woman, and am totally inspired by my job…. Then I’ll hit ebb state and can barely motivate to keep up with email. Sometimes I wonder if I have a very minor case of bi-polar disorder, but I’ve just learned over the years to slog through the ebb periods as best I can, not make too much of them, and wait for my energy to return. Getting more sleep, being gentle with myself and taking care of myself helps me get through the Ebb times – if not more quickly, then with a little less self-judgment.

      I don’t know your situation though – do you think it’s the case that your job is permanently sucking you dry?

    3. writelhd*

      Asked for/conceived of new projects that increased my enthusiasm again. Asked permission to changed focus to something that, upon reflection, I realized I really liked about my job, had never gotten to do adequately, and wanted to do more of, and dropped some stuff that I knew was weighing me down. But, those are not options for everyone.

    4. AnonGD*

      I’ve been in my job five years and have definitely had burnout periods– the only thing that really does anything for me is time off. My boss is VERY resistant to me taking full weeks off but when I know I need it I stand my ground and do it. I will also not travel anywhere if I’m in a particularly rough place and just take that week to be at home and regroup and figure out a plan to mentally tackle the next stretch.

      (It also now helps that I’ve started to job search)

    5. Lil Fidget*

      Not possible in every job, but I started taking every opportunity to get out of the office (for work reasons, I mean). Site visits, field based visits, conferences, etc. My boss didn’t even push back and might have appreciated that I was taking on these things that suck a lot of time, and I noticed immediately how much better I felt about my job. I was bored and energy-drained by sitting in my crappy cubicle.

  55. Rat Racer*

    An interesting political pickle:

    I’ve been wringing my hands about my job on this site for a few weeks now. My good news to share is that I’ve been offered a position on a “Sister Team” of the one I’m currently on. Totally lateral move, but the VP of the Sister team has been recruiting me for about a year and hand-picked me, whereas my current VP inherited me, and we don’t click very well. (Moreover, she’s re-patriated her entire inner circle from her previous company, and everyone else is treated like pre-existing condition. I don’t have many nice things to say about the new VP of my current department).

    Here’s the rub: the move is totally lateral, and I’d be picking up most of my portfolio and moving it to the other team. I have to tell my current manager that I am interviewing for the Sister Team – it’s company policy. It will be blatantly obvious to my manager that I’m swapping VPs – there’s no other credible reason for me to move.

    My spouse (who despite marked success in his career gives the worst career advice ever) thinks I should be honest with my manager and tell her that I’m switching teams because of the VP. My gut tells me that he is once again mistaken. But I’m terrible at lying or “subjective truth telling” as it were. I’m worried that I’ll come across as totally disingenuous and she’ll see right through me. Any advice on how to approach this conversation?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Can you play it off casually? “Oh, well, Awesome VP has been trying to recruit me for a while, so I figured I’d do the interview and get more information.”

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      Hopefully you can come up with some bland, face-saving reason for the move, like “I like the office’s space better,” “The hours will be more flexible with that team,” or “I’m interested in expanding into other opportunities other VP talked to me about.” I don’t think it has to be iron-clad, just enough for your current VP to save face.

      I definitely wouldn’t say that you were switching because of the VP. There be dragons.

    3. Notthemomma*

      Spin it to their benefit ‘New VP has been talking to me for a while and I feel this would give you a better opportunity to build the team you envision’. Followed by a blank stare and smile. It’s bland and truthful, while framing it as a positive for old VP

      1. Former Retail Manager*

        I really like this and I think that your current VP will read between the lines and realize that you feel the same way as she does, although quite frankly, she probably already knows that. When you don’t like someone, realize that more often than not, they don’t like you either. What I mean is that she may be just as relieved for you to switch teams as you will be, but I definitely wouldn’t be as blatant as your spouse suggests.

        1. Rat Racer*

          Eh, I don’t think my current VP has any particular dislike for me – I don’t think she cares enough about me to actively dislike me. If I were to leave the company, she would be pretty screwed, since my portfolio of responsibility is high profile, is part of our department goals this year, and has significant $s attached to it. But, since my plan is to pick up my piece of this work and bring it with me to the other team (these two teams are kind of like twin stars in orbit around each other) I am actually not screwing her over, just saying “screw you”

  56. Penny Hartz*

    I’ve been applying–casually–for other jobs. I like my company, and my coworkers, but the position itself is below my skill set and experience level and there’s no real room for advancement. So I’ve been looking, but just for stuff that would be a significant jump in salary and title/responsibilities.

    ANYWAY, the other day I got one of those rejection emails that make you want to hit “Reply” and ask them what the hell is their problem:

    “Thank you for taking the time to apply to the Senior Llama Wrangler role. We received your application in the late stages of our recruiting process and therefore were not able to consider you for the role.

    We have a lot of exciting things happening at Llama Worldwide and hope you will explore other opportunities with us. We encourage you to visit website on a regular basis to search for open roles.”

    If it was too late to be considered—WHY WAS I STILL ABLE TO APPLY? TAKE THE POSTING OFF YOUR DAMN WEBSITE! Thanks for making me waste time crafting a cover letter and tweaking my resume.

    1. AnonGD*

      I was recently on the other side of the hiring process and it drove me kind of crazy how lackadaisical my boss was about every step of the process. AFAIK we didn’t even send a simple form rejection out to all the applicants that didn’t make it to the phone interview stage! I gently brought it up and got “I don’t have time to deal with that” … ugh. I’m job searching myself so I’m taking it as a sign that it’s not the place I want to work when this stuff comes up.

      1. Penny Hartz*

        Part of me is impressed and grateful that they even sent a rejection letter to someone who didn’t make it beyond the “applying” stage. But why turn it on me–I applied too late? How would I have known?

        1. fposte*

          I didn’t read it as blaming you, just letting you know what’s why your application wasn’t considered. Is there a wording you’d have preferred? They probably didn’t want to send wording that sounded like a rejection on qualifications when that wasn’t the cause–what would be a good phrasing for that?

          1. Penny Hartz*

            The standard would have been fine: Thank you for your interest in xxx, while your experience and skills are impressive, we have decided to move forward with other candidates. Please check back for other positions, etc.

            The whole “we got it too late” just rubbed me the wrong way. Like I did something wrong.

      2. Gotham Bus Company*

        My employer doesn’t send rejection letters. At all. Ever. Not sure why.

  57. Forking Great Username*

    Anyone want to commiserate with me about insanely long job applications? I’m talking about before you even get to the interview. The standard in the education field in my state is to submit a cover letter, resume, three professional references…fairly standard stuff there, But then you also have to fill out pages worth of forms online detailing your work history (including company, title, position, responsibilities), then repeating all that on the page that asks you about your student teaching and subbing experience. You’re also asked for a reference to go with each job/student teaching experience. Even though you already gave them your three professional references. Then you need three personal references. Plus college transcripts, re-entering your certification info three times plus uploading a copy of your certificate. And three essay questions about qualities that make a great teacher, how you address a variety of student needs, etc. And then a personal statement. And then your letters of recommendation.

    Looking for a teaching job really is like a full time job! One that’s hard to do as a long term sub prepping for finals.

    1. Julianne (also a teacher)*

      Whoa, that’s wild! I don’t know if this is any consolation, but I’ve applied to teaching jobs in about a dozen different districts and have never had such an involved application. So, I’m sorry you’re stuck dealing with this nonsense, but rest assured that there are sane districts out there!

    2. Chaordic One*

      Well, at least a lot of the information asked for on forms can be “copied and pasted.”

      You left out the joys of pre-employment testing, psychological testing, the “pee test” and being fingerprinted.

    3. foolofgrace*

      Oh don’t get me started on long job applications. Mine aren’t nearly as long as yours but it drives me crazy how they want you to fill in separately everything that’s already on your resume, plus more info like who your supervisor was? And they don’t want to know the month and year of each position, they also want the DAY? Who can even remember that far back? I mean, really? For anyone who’s had more than two previous jobs, this process is onerous and draconian. Sometimes I get that far in the application process — because of course you don’t know it’s going to be that long when you start out — and say SCREW THIS. I especially hate that at that point you don’t even know whether the salary range is within your requirements and thus worth the effort. I think that I’m not the only qualified applicant who says SCREW THIS, and thus companies are losing quality people. Grrrrrr.

      1. lopsided*

        LOL yeah I’ve noped out of SO MANY long-ass applications because this is utterly ridiculous! I am not a data entry clerk for you, random HR department! I will leave every single thing blank or I will just not apply because other job postings aren’t this heinous pile of shit.

  58. Nervous accountant*

    Kind of a funny story…Tuesday night I read the post about the worker spreading out her makeup across 3 sinks. Before reading the details I got super paranoid thinking it was about me.

    I do my makeup at work is b/c the lighting at work bathroom is soooo much better than my lighting at home. Also, I take public transit and sleep so I don’t have my contacts in/on until I get to the office. And I do it before work and I’m Never late for work.

    Anyway I’ve always been nervous AF that my boss will walk in. Idc about other coworkers but my boss, yes. And…in that post, someone in the comments wrote “Imagine someone walking in on you while you’re baking”.

    You can probably tell where I’m going with this.

    That literally happened the next morning. And whit my boss. FML. I just made small talk and made it a point to say I wasn’t clocked in argghhh. Worst or not worst part idk was that I was baking and I had white powder under my eyes and on my nose so that was a fun visual for her I’m sure.

    1. Julia*

      That commenter was me, and I’m so sorry I gave worried you! And apparently also didn’t warn you enough. :(

      1. Nervous accountant*

        Lol, no I’ve been paranoid about that forever! I’m pretty sure she didn’t think or say anything cz I would have heard about it by now.

        1. Julia*

          I can’t imagine baking in the bathroom to be any kind of workplace rule violation, so I’m sure you’re fine. :)

      2. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

        I didn’t realize that “baking” was a makeup thing, so I read this thinking “yeah, it would be awkward if you were in the middle of making cookies and had flour on your face and your boss unexpectedly walked in.” Then I got to “in the bathroom” and went “wait, back up…”

        1. Ashk434*

          I totally thought she was talking about drugs so at least your mind didn’t take that far astray

  59. MeridaAnn*

    I am so tired of my coworkers apologizing to me when they swear.

    I don’t use curse words personally, but I don’t care if others do, and I have never asked anyone to change their language or given any sort of a negative reaction when anyone swears. I am in engineering and I am the only woman in my office and one of very few women in my whole department. At least once a week a man will pause mid-sentence after swearing, look directly at me to apologize for the swear, and then continue speaking. It’s not always the same man, but there have been repeat offenders. Every time, I say something like “it doesn’t bother me” or “no need to apologize”, but it keeps happening pretty regularly.

    Swearing isn’t uncommon in our office/department (I just now heard the F-word down the hall as I am typing this), and it doesn’t bother me. . I’m very careful not to give any indication that I’m uncomfortable with others swearing (because I’m not), and I laugh along with everyone else when a swear is part of a joke or funny story.

    There is another man in my office who doesn’t swear, but no one ever singles him out to apologize to him. I’ve also been singled out and apologized to by men who aren’t around me often and don’t know that I don’t swear, they just know that I’m the only woman currently within earshot, so it definitely feels more like they’re apologizing because I’m a woman and not because of my own lack of swearing.

    I’m tired of it. I’m tired of people assuming that I’m judging their language choices when I’m not and I’m tired of being treated like I have “delicate lady ears” (I like in Florida now, although I grew up up north where I didn’t encounter this, so it definitely feels like there’s a certain element of southern culture influencing it). It makes me feel singled out and like they think I’m being judgmental when I’m absolutely not. It also puts weird interruptions in the middle of conversations for no reason, and it makes me feel like *I’m* the one causing the interruption just for being there because I’m the one they feel the need to apologize to.

    Like I said, I usually say something like “no need to apologize” with a smile and a shrug, but I’m looking for different scripts since it hasn’t stopped, especially with the two or three men who apologize to me the most. I know one option would be to question them directly with something like “why are you apologizing to me?”, but I feel like that would derail the conversation and make it into even more of an interruption than it already is. But maybe that’s what’s necessary to get it to stop, at least with the repeat offenders. I’d love some better ways to address it in the moment, both with the repeat apologizers and with the one-offs.

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Ugh. And people say sexism isn’t a thing. It’s totally a thing. You could try cursing the next couple people who apologize to you. ” stop apologizing already. I’ve told you don’t I care. You’re being obnoxious about this, and I’m tired of your treating me like I’ll shrivel up and die if I hear a bad word.”

      Or not. But it might feel good.

        1. writelhd*

          Or a slightly sarcastic “yes, I believe I’m an adult and have heard those words Before. Now, About XYX Teapot report…”

          1. Teapot librarian*

            Is it just me having deja vu or has this exact discussion with these exact replies happened before?

      2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        and I need to remember that when I put the open and close arrows in, the internet stuff deletes those words, thus making my post not make sense.

    2. Natalie*

      Are you comfortable swearing occasionally? Because I’ve found that the best response to those swearing apologies is something like “Who me? I don’t give a shit” or similar.

      1. MeridaAnn*

        Nope. I don’t swear personally for religious reasons. But I have heard another woman in my department take this approach once or twice.

        1. Natalie*

          Ah, rats. Maybe you could try treating them with mild befuddlement instead? Something like “what a weird thing to apologize for [long pause] anyway, the Ninja Report is on schedule blah blah blah”

    3. Blank*

      Could you try saying to them, “It’s fine, I know all those words”? With the right tone, I’ve found that works for me when people (older men) make a show of apologising to me.

    4. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      I don’t have a proactive fix, but I just want to say that I’ve been experiencing the same exact thing in Wisconsin! So it might not be an entirely regional thing.

      There are four women in my office of twelve people, also in engineering, and for my first eight months or so, many of the men would throw in a “pardon my language” or just “sorry” with a glance my way after a swear. I’m an adult, I’ve been through both high school and college, so yes, I know all of the swears and have been around tons of people that use them. Not sure why the apology is necessary.

      That being said, the apologies have been dying down (at this point I’ve been here for a year), so maybe it just took awhile before they saw me as an equal rather than the new girl. I’m also roughly 10 years younger than any of the guys in the habit of apologizing after swearing. How long have you been on this team, Merida? Any chance you’re relatively new or relatively young?

      1. MeridaAnn*

        I’ve been here for 3 years now, which is longer than at least 1/3 of the office because we just hired a bunch of new people over the last year. I am the youngest in the office, though (I’m 28 and look a little younger).

    5. Kvothe*

      Also a female engineer and have also had this happen to me, usually by contractors when out in the field and yes it’s super annoying (doubly so for me because I am a swearer) I usually say something along the lines of “No need to apologize to me I’ve heard it all before”

      I’ve never had to deal with it from a coworker though and I can totally see how irritating it would be to be apologized to every week/day/whatever, I’d probably go the route of just telling them flat out to stop apologizing and repeat as necessary

    6. Lindsay J*

      That you don’t swear makes it harder.

      I’ve dealt with this before and my response has generally been something like, “You’re right. Your language is completely f—ing inappropriate. Cut it the f— out,” or similar.

      Maybe go with some over the top sarcasm? “Oh my stars. You’ve burned my delicate ears. How could you expose me to such dastardly language? I don’t know how I’ll ever cope now after hearing those words.”

      1. anna green*

        The over the top sarcasm is one of the better options I’ve found to somewhat work :) I might copy that exact phrase and use it sometime!

    7. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

      Oh I am totally the same way. Only I would actually prefer they didn’t swear, but since they’re going to anyway, at least don’t apologize. I’ve stopped saying, “It’s fine,” type things and started saying something noncommittal instead, like, “Mm,” with a slight smile. I think this might have reduced both swearing and apologizing, though I haven’t actually paid much attention. At any rate, it requires less work from me and makes it less of a big deal.

    8. anna green*

      OMG this happens to me every. single. day. I am a female in a male dominated STEM industry and its been happening for my entire career. I dont have advice, because nothing works. I usually just constantly repeatedly tell them to stop it or laugh it off or remind them that I’m a grown up too. But it doesn’t work. Ugh. And I do swear on occasion, but I don’t want to start swearing at them just to prove a point either. Your “delicate lady ears” statement is exactly right. That’s what they think I have. It’s SO ANNOYING. Also, I am in the northeast and am 37 years old (And I look 37! I am not a child! STOP IT!)). So, I don’t think its necessarily regional, I think its a gender societal expectation stupid sexist thing.

      Sorry, venting.

    9. smoke tree*

      Ugh, I’ve had to deal with this before and it’s very irritating. It’s clearly not about being considerate to you, it’s about some kind of power display (I feel the same way about ostentatious door-holding or seat-offering). It’s particularly annoying when it makes everyone pause their conversation and focus on your delicate sensibilities for a moment. I’ve never had any luck making this stop, but it makes me feel a bit better to call out their weirdness.

    10. Tomato Frog*

      I think you should go with a bemused “Why are you apologizing to me?” with the repeat offenders. I’ve had mild luck with that line in the past when people apologized to me for swearing, though my situation was admittedly different (i.e. it was just something that would happen sporadically in social contexts). If you’re concerned about keeping the conversation moving, you don’t have to wait for an answer.

    11. RebeccaNoraBunch*

      I am the only woman on the sales leadership team at a tech company. This happens to me ALL the time.

      Ironically, I’m also a stand-up comic (which they all know) and have said worse words than they say onstage in front of audiences and got laughs and paid for it. Lol. I don’t really swear a lot at work because I’m a sales trainer and it’s just less professional, but I really, really don’t care.

      They still apologize all the time.

      FWIW, I’m also in the southeast US.

    12. anonagain*

      Act like they are apologizing for passing gas?

      I don’t know. I usually respond with some combination of what/why/that doesn’t make sense, all flatly delivered with just a hint of confusion or disgust, as appropriate. Sometimes I just shake my head a little while maintaining a look of concentration on my face.

    13. Unacademic*

      I swear myself, but this still happens to me (surprise surprise, same demographics involved). Dramatic gasp, mock indignation, clasping your hands to your ears, “why I’ve never heard that word before!” Turn the joke around on them and make them feel like they’re being ridiculous. Might need a few variations, but it may help either deter them or set up an in-joke that you’re in on with them, and it’ll no longer be this weird subtle exclusionary action.

    14. Gumby*

      I think this is one of those things where I would pretty much ignore the apologies. Maybe a wide-eyed confused look and change the topic. Because you making a big deal of them making a big deal of it is counter productive. Maybe if they get no reaction they’ll stop?

      In the past I had co-workers who actually changed their language around me after noticing I didn’t swear. In that case, at least, it wasn’t gender-based because they didn’t necessarily change their language around other women. I didn’t make faces, say anything, or in any way indicate that I wanted them to change. They just noticed I didn’t swear and so they altered their language around me. I guess it was considerate of them though unnecessary. I wasn’t going to police their language either way – “stop swearing around me” or “you must continue swearing around me.”

      This all presumes that they respect your work and your competence, etc. obviously.

  60. Onlooker*

    I work in an office with 3 other women.

    One of the women’s boss is a lot more demanding than the rest of our managers – so ‘busy coworker’ is consequently a lot busier. I really like her, she’s hardworking, fun and everyone in her team really likes her.

    She can get a bit stressed when she’s really busy and keeps her head down most of the time trying to get on top of things. I also know that she works late and sometimes goes in at the weekend. I don’t think this is a competency issue. Her manager’s workload is also very intense.

    My problem is the other 2 women talk about her behind her back. I don’t like it but I’m not confrontational so just keep on with my own work and try my best to ignore.

    A couple of weeks ago our managers had a meeting and some of the ‘busy coworkers’ work has been shared out amongst us 3. This should help relieve her workload but the other 2 are very annoyed about it and are now slagging her off even more.

    How do I deal with this. I feel the negativity and it’s completely wearing me out.

    The other day the ‘busy coworker’ said that she felt uncomfortable with the other 2 – she’d just walked back into the office and it was so obvious that they’d been talking about her. She was visibly upset when she spoke to me and said that she can’t help it if their workload has increased.

    I don’t want to get involved and tell her because a) it would upset her b) what could she do about it ? c) I don’t want her to go to her boss and be known as the office ‘snitch’.

    How do I remain positive in this situation?

    1. writelhd*

      Be nice to her, be her friend, and don’t ever engage in what the other two are doing, either in front of her, or just when you’re alone with them, and realize that your positiveness brings something to the culture too. Honestly, when people at work are mean to you, having others who are just…nice, who smile, are friendly, and genuine, etc, makes a difference. If you don” feel like confronting the other two, that’s fine, refusing to engage can sometimes be clear enough, but if they demand a response from your and you do feel like pushing back, saying something like a cheerful “you know that’s not been my experience with Jane at all” and walking off can be a really powerful thing.

      I think realizing that those things do have an effect, could help you stay positive. You’re being a force to oppose behavior that you think is wrong by the example that you set, and that does change the equation.

    2. LCL*

      If two people are saying bad things about another in front of you and you say nothing, you are part of the problem. A small part, the majority of the fault is theirs, but people like that thinks silence means approval. Nonconfrontational responses would be: why would you say that, that hasn’t been my experience, do you really believe that, how did you come to that conclusion. Confrontational would be: you two are acting like jerks, stop trash talking around me.

      If you don’t want to tell busy coworker, don’t. If you are worried about the trashtalkers selecting you as their topic, they are already. People that do this do it to everybody.

      1. Onlooker*

        Hmm I’ve heard of being ‘guilty by association’ in that I am not standing up for the ‘busy coworker’. I’m completely conflict averse – so not sure how I would get on with pulling them up for it LCL.

        It’s the absolute negativity in the atmosphere that is draining – why can’t we all be friends ha ha.

        1. Anna Held*

          Practice saying a level “That’s not been my experience.” “I don’t know why you’d say that.” “It’s the company’s work, not her work — of course it’s right that we do our share.”

          And bring it up to your manager. This poor coworker is doing a ton of extra work, and getting slagged for it? If she’s got any sense, she’s looking for a new job. Then the three of you get to do her work plus yours.

  61. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    Wish me luck! Had a phone interview last week, in person interview this week. It’s a small team in a small company (well, small for the industry, it’s like 5000+ employees), they’re growing and building the team up. They’re hiring 3 positions. Work sounds good, culture so far sounds good, etc. The downsides so far are fine. Apparently, they really like me! So, wish me luck that I proceed, and that future conversations continue to be good.

    1. irene adler*

      Good luck! Really hope this works out for you.
      Did you send the thank you note for the in-person interview yet?

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        yep, all done. And provided references to the recruiter, so they’re ready to go when needed. When I called my old manager to ask if she’d give me a reference, her first thing was “I was hoping you’d come back to work for me”. I’d love to, but that would mean working with the manager who caused me to have a panic attack (for the first time in my life). so, no.

        1. irene adler*

          Sounds like you are “on it”!
          And from what old manager said, you would be an asset at new company. That’s a good way for folks to see you.

  62. shep*

    Any other writers with day jobs in the commentariat? I’m curious to know how you plan your writing time around your daytime career. I’m lucky time-wise in that I don’t have children or dependents to work around, but my schedule is still pretty busy, and I want to spend adequate time hanging out with my SO every day.

    I know some people swear by writing in the morning, but I am approximately 12% functional in the mornings, and all that functionality is reserved for mindless morning things like toothbrushing and makeup application and dressing myself (and even then, sometimes it’s a mess). I think I’m going to try writing immediately when I get home. This seems like the most practical system for me, if I could just DO it when the time comes and not crash or start on cooking dinner immediately.

    Beyond that, I’m curious about any other aspects of writing life that people care to share!

    1. miyeritari*

      Not writing as much as I used to, but I got a lot more writing done if I left work and went to a non-home place for a few hours. Coffee shops best, but I’ve written at bars as long as I can get a seat (the white noise is calming to me.) I just say “After work, I am going to go to the coffee shop for two hours.” If I did that once or twice a week, I got a lot done.

    2. writelhd*

      Well, I don’t have tons to add because I try to do this but fail at it–meaning my job sucks me in and I can’t make much progress, plus I’m not published yet in my chosen writing field. But I have the most success when I get the habit of writing a little every day and keeping track of words/day progress, and I do it in the evenings when I get home. If I can get into the groove of it for a few days, it gets easier to keep up. I’ve also added some writing classes with a local writers group, which, while not directly related to my ongoing project, got me really excited about the concept of writing again and learning and trying something new, and it had homework.

      I like thinking about writing while doing other things–cooking, etc, it helps me form my thoughts.

    3. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Not employed elsewhere right now (and not writing much because grad school), but when I was, I had better luck carving out several hours on the weekend to write rather than trying to do a little every day because I have ADHD and have a hard time with switching tasks. I’ve heard a lot of people say that they write in the mornings, but as a non-morning person I cannot for the life of me fathom how they do this.

    4. Inspector Spacetime*

      I’ve had luck with going straight to the library after work and cranking out a few hours there before I drive home and eat dinner. I pack a snack. Plus, it helps me avoid the rush hour traffic.

      This only works when it’s been a light day at work, though. If I’m exhausted, it’s not going to happen, haha. Good luck!

    5. Anonymosity*

      –Work (when I’m working).
      –Come home.
      –Make dinner (it’s just me so no socializing necessary).
      –Write until bedtime or I feel like I’ve reached a good stopping point, depending on how well it’s going.
      If I can’t seem to crank out anything, I’ll make outlines or do research. This happens if I’m too tired from a rough day.
      –Repeat until I’m finished and then repeat but with editing. I’ve also been known to drag a hard copy around with me so I can edit at lunch. Plus, I wrote a large portion of one book AT lunch, but I had to drag my laptop to and from work, since I was at the front desk and couldn’t sit there during lunch when I was off the clock. I could usually bang out a scene or two. It’s not something I can do unless the project is going exceedingly well, however.

      I seem to write better when I have less time to do it. I’m not working right now, and it’s tougher to buckle down when I don’t have a schedule. I need to make myself one.

    6. Tau*

      Not sure I qualify as a writer since it’s a hobby for me, but I’ve set myself an alarm in the evening at which point I must, must, must go sit in my Writing Chair and produce at least N words. (N = 300 for me, but could easily be higher – I do 300 because that every day adds up to 100k words a year and it’s low enough that I can force something out even if I’m absolutely not feeling writing that day.) I have various rituals I can perform to get myself into the right frame of mind, such as making tea or lighting candles. On weekend mornings, I also try to get out to a nearby cafe to have breakfast and write, and before I managed the evening thing I’d also try to get to a cafe after work once or twice a week. That said, there is just no way I could write on weekday mornings! I’m in work mode then. Not a chance.

      Disclaimer: I’m autistic with executive function problems, and setting myself alarms is basically the only way I can get anything done ever.

      1. foolofgrace*

        “it’s low enough that I can force something out even if I’m absolutely not feeling writing that day.”

        When you stop writing for the day, don’t finish the sentence — just stop in the middle of the sentence. Then the next time it’s time to start writing again, it’s easier to just pick up and go.

    7. Long Time Lurker*

      Maybe look into getting a crock pot or slow cooker and write on specific days. Like Monday and Wednesday are writing/stew days.

  63. AnonAnon*

    Last week, when a colleague asked me a benign question about about a program that I am transitioning out of having responsibility for, I snapped and had a miniature meltdown. I vented some frustration and even teared up a bit.

    My colleague — who was a safe person to have these kinds of unruly emotions in front of — was very frustrated on my behalf. My whole division has gone through a lot of transition and stress over the past year, and as a result of both my role and my not-so-great manager) I’ve borne a lot of the brunt of it. My colleague asked if she could share some of our conversation with her boss (my manager’s boss), and I agreed. To me, she said “[Her Boss] cannot let another person quit before he fires [My Boss].” (Context: Last summer, the two other people who reported to my boss both quit, explicitly because of his management. This wasn’t a secret; they were vocal both in personal conversations and in management conversations with HR.)

    I’ve shared some of my frustration with my manager’s boss, with whom I have a very strong relationship. I know others have as well (including this colleague), so none of this is a surprise to him.

    Yesterday, my manager’s boss asked me for an impromptu meeting and told me that he’d spoken with my colleague. He asked me to articulate my frustrations about my manager, and invited me to think about what a different overall structure for my team would look like. I asked him for time to prepare my thoughts, so we’re meeting next week.

    Any recommendations for how to approach this meeting?

    1. AJEM1991*

      Remain factual. X happened which has caused Z and has added to my stress/anxiety in this way.
      As easy as it is to do, don’t speculate, try to understand or make excuses for the persons behaviours
      Pull documentable evidence if you have it – diary, email, calendar invites etc

      Hope it gets better – being in this situation sucks x

    2. AnonAnon*

      I’m struggling even to think about what to say about the challenges with my manager. As I write them out they seem petty — but it adds up to enough frustration that we’ve lost people over it. I’m not leaving — I made that clear both to my colleague and to my manager’s boss — but I get it.

      Thinking out loud, these are my various frustrations (not all of which I’ll share):

      – He’s fundamentally failing at his job. This is obvious to everyone; there are clear metrics he’s failing to meet. I also know that his performance ratings have been low (due to a quirk of my role, I see the performance scores of everyone on my team). This failure means that the program he leads may end, which of course causes a lot of stress for those of us who are paid to work on that program.

      – It seems as though he passes off most of his work to me. When he presented his annual work plan to his boss a few months ago, literally everything on his priority list were initiatives that I manage.

      – He doesn’t do the basics of management. For example, he has never updated my job description (even after I’ve rewritten it for him; all he had to do was submit it to HR). My job has undergone substantial changes in the time I’ve worked for him (from working 100% on Program A –> to (briefly) 50% on Program A and 50% on Program B –> to (briefly) 25% on Program A, 25% on Program B, and 50% on Program C –> to 50% on Program B and 50% on Program C –> to 50% on Program A and 50% on Program B –> to 50% on Program A and 50% on Program D).

      – He is super, super flaky. He regularly misses external meetings because he forgets to put them on his calendar. I essentially have to act as his executive assistant (or his manager?) — tracking everything he’s working on to ensure he gets it done. For example, he still owes me a piece of writing that was due in April. I gave up on nagging him about it after the fifth time we talked about it, and the communications piece still hasn’t gone out, which I’m guessing he doesn’t even remember.

      1. smoke tree*

        It’s hard to say without knowing all of the specifics of the situation, but in your place, I’d try as much as possible to concentrate on specific facts that you’re in good position to be aware of and especially anything that affects your job directly.

        So, for example, I feel like it’s a bit nebulous to say that he’s failing at his job or passing off too much of his own work to you, but you could point to direct effects from him failing to do his job (missed deadlines, angry clients, what have you) or mention that he’s overloaded you with an unreasonable amount of work and hasn’t provided any support about how to manage or prioritize it.

        I also probably wouldn’t mention something like your job description unless you can point to specific negative repercussions, since it seems less dire than the other problems. It’s easy to get lost in the weeds when you’re dealing with someone impossible, but I think your feedback will have more impact if you stick to the most serious issues.

        1. Chaordic One*

          Smoke tree is right. Comments such as “failing at his job” can easily be construed as being personal attacks. Instead saying that he is “failing at his job,” show that he is failing at his job using examples such as those suggested by smoke tree.

  64. writelhd*

    We have a rotating snack day on Fridays where people sign up to bring breakfast. Today was my Friday. I am a vegetarian, the only one in our office, I try to avoid talking about it–however, I don’t put meat in the food I cook. I cook quiches, breads, cobblers, casseroles, etc, without meat–and I don’t think I’m the best cook ever or anything but I’m an experienced enough cook to know I can make acceptably tasty food. I usually get reasonably enthusiastic “thanks, that was really good!” from many people, and while some are certainly just being polite and would tell anybody thanks, if it were really terrible or even just ok, I think I’d get less noticeable enthusiasm.

    There is one person in my office office who I just can’t win with. He disapproves of my job function and maybe of me personally, I dunno. I have definitely observed him eat other people’s home-cooked breakfasts, but in all my years here I’ve never seen him eat mine, even when I walk by his office and tell him breakfast has arrived. Today, I overheard his direct report asking him if he’d brought his own breakfast today instead of eating mine, and he said he had. And I just…argh! I know it’s not even the lack of meat in the food, because I’ve personally seen him eat other meatless breakfast items others bring in. Maybe one time I cooked something he didn’t like and now he’s turned off, but the tone of voice they both used made it sound like it would be a joke to eat something I brought, and that hurt, and doesn’t seem to fit in with the general reactions from everybody else in the office. Despite all my efforts to be nice and professional with him and his department, everything just feels like a petty battle with this guy, even when he doesn’t know I’m overhearing him.

    1. irene adler*

      Please don’t take this one person’s actions to heart. Every one else partook of your offerings. There’s been no complaints from them-right?

      Look at it this way: More eats for the rest of you!

    2. Nant*

      ugh, that sucks so much /o\ at least in my experience, some folk can get very iffy about anything that is explicitly “vegetarian”, and especially vegan, which may be what’s going on here. it still really sucks tho :( (although I have exploited that to great effect – no-one touches my food in the student fridge cause I told them it was all vegan :’) )

    3. BuffaLove*

      You have a rotating schedule for bringing in homemade breakfast?! That is extremely odd and seems like a terrible idea for so many reasons. Can you just bring in bagels or something? I would hate to have to put in all that effort only for people to be snarky about it.

      1. Eve*

        We have a rotating lunch schedule. It is technically “salad day” but we’ve been branching out lately and have had BLTs, subs, and chili days lately. Works for us.

        1. Anu*

          I would hate this so much. I eat fairly differently from most other people for health reasons so I would find that kind of schedule really impossible.

    4. fposte*

      In addition to what the estimable irene adler says, I’d try to detach myself both from pleasing this guy and from investing too much in food for the workplace. It’s perfectly fine for him not to like your food–it doesn’t have to mean anything personally.

    5. Jennifer*

      He’s not worth the effort. He doesn’t have to eat your food. He’d probably pout and be a dick if he did. Just let it go.

      1. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

        Exactly, just ignore him. For the record, if I worked with you I’d eat his portion. ;-)

    6. WellRed*

      Presumably you don’t expect everyone to partake? I don’t even think you should be walking around announcing breakfast. Just put in the break room or whatever.
      I am sure your food is wonderful!

    7. smoke tree*

      I just have to say that I would not love this system, even though I like to cook. Cooking and sharing food can have so many emotions attached, it just seems likely to cause problems in the long run. As an example, I tend to be skeptical about other people’s hygiene so I have to know the other person pretty well before I’m happy to eat something they’ve made, but I realize those are my issues.

    8. essEss*

      Unless he’s coming to your desk and complaining about your food, it’s not necessary for him to eat the food you bring and it’s a little strange that you are monitoring what everyone eats. He might have an issue with you personally for some reason and doesn’t trust your food, or possibly he had a bad food reaction to something you cooked a while back and doesn’t want to risk it again. It’s also possible that he has an allergy/aversion to some vegan food substitute (vegan cheese, vegan butter, could be anything…) and rather than questioning every ingredient each time he just chooses to avoid the possible allergen/intolerance. I know that there are people that I KNOW don’t wash their hands when they use the restrooms here and others that are covered in cat/dog hair and I won’t eat any food that they bring in for potlucks. It is also true that he might just not like you and doesn’t want to be beholden to you for anything, including needing to be thankful for a meal. That’s not your problem.

  65. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    Super vague question, I know, and there are no real definite answers, but I’m just curious about what people’s thoughts are who might have more experience in this area.

    I’ve been thinking about my post-grad school plans and considering whether I want to stay in the UK after my student visa is up, but the requirements for acceptable jobs for work visas are so strict. Is it at all likely that I’ll be able to find a job there after I graduate, or should I just assume I won’t? I know no one can tell the future, but, assuming I conduct a serious job search, apply to everything that’s a good match with solid applications rather than resume-bombing (or rather CV-bombing) everything in sight, is there a chance? Or am I better off just looking elsewhere and not wasting my time looking here? (US citizen, LIS master’s although I’m open to other fields.) I’m worried about the post-Brexit economy and can’t really figure out what is/will be going on with the job market.

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      This is something I plan to ask my professors about, but I’m not sure I really trust their assessments of the job market, FWIW.

      1. Blank*

        Depends on your industry. The minimum salary for a Tier 2 visa tends to be well above entry-level, though if you’re looking at an in-demand occupation things might be different. Keep in mind there’s also the labour market test, which in practice often means non-UK applicants go to the bottom of the list if there are qualified UK applicants. Plus, there’s the current government’s policy to cap immigration, and the problems that is causing for recruitment.

        My advice (as a non-citizen working in the UK) is to apply for anything that looks like a good fit, but also start up a job search back home.

        1. lollyscrambler*

          I don’t know about other fields though so you can explore those. But honestly the UK visa process is really gruelling I would not engage with it unless you REALLY want to stay.

          1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

            Yuuuuuuuuuuuuup. Getting my UK student visa was, without a doubt, the worst experience of my life. If I do wind up staying, good to know I’ll be in for more of the same. *sigh*

        2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

          Yeah, I’m definitely not going to just look in the UK. There are several other countries I’m interested in working in, including some that have looser work visa restrictions than the UK.

          I feel like I read somewhere that if I’m applying from within the UK it’s easier because there are fewer requirements I have to meet (maybe even they don’t have to do the labour market test? or maybe I’m just being overly optimistic), but I’ll take another look a little further down the line since my program isn’t over yet.

      2. lollyscrambler*

        I don’t want to be negative but there are a lot of un- and underemployed librarians in the UK and I don’t think it will be possible to meet the visa sponsorship requirements of proving that there was no EEA candidate who met the requirements to sponsor you for a visa. I agree professors are unlikely to have realistic assessments of the job market. It used to be that studying in the UK came with a year work visa afterwards which made is easier to try to stay but without some kind of visa it is incredibly hard to stay in the UK. There are also caps on these visas and your employer needs to be on the visa sponsoring list https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/register-of-licensed-sponsors-workers

        1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

          Thanks for the link!

          I’m open to non-librarian jobs and unconventional library-type jobs (and actively don’t want to be a school or public librarian, which is where a lot of the people in my program seem to want to be), but it’s good to know that the market isn’t great so I don’t get my hopes up.

    2. EB*

      This was five-ish years ago so take it with a grain of salt since I’m sure the visa requirements have changed and maybe they’re more ridiculous than I realize. I had a friend (also US citizen) that did her undergrad over in the UK and desperately wanted to stay. She also, if we’re being honest, did not put in much legwork to actually make that happen– didn’t use her network, didn’t apply for many jobs or applied to jobs that she wasn’t qualified for. She left England embittered and now tells everyone that asks her about it that it’s impossible to work there as a US citizen.

      … yeah, that’s definitely not true. I have a couple friends that were dating people in the UK and figured out ways to get visas to live there legally, using the methods you described. They’re creatives, by the way, so not exactly super high paying work or anything. They both live in the US now but it’s mostly due to their careers than visa issues. I’d say give it a shot, *definitely* use your network there as much as possible (I think that was the key), and ignore the naysayers because in my experience they’re bitter for a reason.

      1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        Yeah, I’m visiting family in the US now, but I think I’m going to try to join CILIP when I get back and maybe go to some of their events. I’ve heard that visa requirements have tightened recently, but I’m not sure whether it was in the last 5 years.

      2. Blank*

        Speaking as someone in the UK – things have changed dramatically in the last 5 years. A friend started their degree at the same time as me, and had to return to our home country because the rules had changed so much after we’d arrived.

        It’s fine to have optimism, but it’s better to be realistic.

    3. LDN Layabout*

      With what’s going on, do you want to stay? A lot of my friends have left recently and I’m going to be honest, the fact that my parents are moving to another EU country and I have dual nationality with a non-EU European country so I have options, is what’s keeping me from panicking if I’m honest.

      1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        For a lot of reasons I don’t, but there’s a very compelling personal reason (not going into it here because it’s the work open thread) for me to try staying, at least for a little while. Had no plans to do it before I met this personal reason, though.

        1. LDN Layabout*

          In that case, fingers crossed and good luck. I can’t speak to the career part of it, but with the current climate, keep all your ducks in order in terms of documentation etc.

    4. Kelly*

      Bit late but in case you’re still checking in on this for replies:
      I went through the same thing last year after graduating with a MSc in the UK, a few things to keep in mind (which your university should’ve told you already but a lot of people tend to miss) –

      If you’re Tier 4, applying from within the UK and have fulfilled the requirements for your degree (from a recognised UK institution), you’re:
      1. Exempt from the labour market test (so your employer doesn’t have to prove there are no UK/EU candidates suitable);
      2. Eligible for an unrestricted certificate of sponsorship (so you’re not subject to the monthly quotas the Home Office puts on Tier 2 visas);
      3. Starting salary requirements for new graduates (including postgrad) is not as high as that required for Tier 2 applications from outside the UK.

      This is all assuming you get a job with a registered Tier 2 sponsor (there’s a list of them on the Home Office website).

      Now your job prospects will of course still depend on your industry, qualifications, luck etc., but hopefully this info makes you feel a bit less anxious about Visa requirements.

  66. miyeritari*

    I’m looking to hire someone to do my job for me when I’m on vacation or step in cases of high ticket volume – probably not currently a regular posistion but could be in the future. You could probably be taught to do most of the job in 2-3 training sessions of an hour or so each (paid, obviously.)

    Given the irregular nature of these hours, is a regular temp out of the question? I’d rather only have to teach it once, obviously. Does anyone have recommendations for a temping company or freelancing sites that specializes in areas like this?

    1. AnonGD*

      This is a shot in the dark but we have a ticket office where I work and they have students that work there on variable hours– they are trained to handle different areas of sales so that they can assist with high volume situations and otherwise do things like cold-calling/group sales work– just a thought!

    2. Ama*

      I used to oversee a housekeeper position that had a full time employee normally, but since her duties needed to be done every day, if she needed PTO (or maternity leave, which also happened) we brought in temps. Whenever we found a particularly reliable temp we would talk to them about whether they wanted to be in our regular backup rotation and get their direct contact info. Then when a temp was needed, we’d go down the backup list and contact them directly, and if they were available, we’d call the temp agency to set up the assignment and just tell them we’d already confirmed with Jane that she could take it. Most of the people we worked with in this capacity had part time employment elsewhere so could only work certain days (when the FT housekeeper went on maternity leave we had to divide the week between three people), but they were happy to pick up some extra hours.

      I’ll just clarify that even though this was a housekeeper position we were using a standard office clerical temp agency (we had to as they had an exclusive contract with my employer) and they were fine with this arrangement. I think you’ll probably want more than one regular backup (because sometimes backups aren’t available), but it can work.

  67. Be the Change*

    I had a small revelation this week (sadly due to a very, very disappointing thing that happened to my husband at work): Lots of us spend our jobs “putting out fires.”

    Leadership means managing the system — planning controlled burns, trying to deal with climate change, making good policies and zoning plans so that fires are less damaging. This is hard, long term work.

    Much more “fun” to put out fires. But if we’re overly focused on putting out fires, rather than managing the system, we can drown people by accident. Sometimes of course, a fire really is going to become a conflagration and you have to put it out — the trick with leadership is knowing the signs, so you don’t accidentally drown people.

    …As you may surmise, my husband’s “leadership” saw a spark, thought it was the Thomas Fire, flew in with tanker planes, and drowned him as he was walking over to stamp on the cigarette butt.

    Thoughts on the metaphor?

    1. anonagain*

      I think it probably makes a lot more sense if you know what the situation in question is.

      I tend to think that the big problem with constantly chasing crises is that you never do anything else and you end up having more of them and you’re less equipped to handle them when they do come up. So in you metaphor, if you spend all your time firefighting, you never have time to maintain and upgrade your equipment, let your crews rest (and hire/train new people), do the controlled burns/education/etc. You don’t prevent avoidable fires and your equipment fails.

      It sounds like you’re trying to describe something else though.

      As an aside: I just spent too long reading about aerial firefighting trying to find out if it would be possible to drown that way. I still don’t know, but it’s pretty fascinating. I am finding

      1. Be the Change*

        Ha, I have no idea if you can drown that way! But I can imagine you wouldn’t want to be under a release!

        Yes, sorry for the cryptic context, I didn’t want to have anything that would even come close to identifying the organization. I definitely agree with you about chasing crises. It’s exhausting and impairs judgment, and you just rush around doing things too fast without *thinking* which is more what happened here.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Not to be rude, but if the metaphor works (and I’m not sure it does) it only works in very narrow specific situations.

      Is is NOT much more “fun” to put out fires. When the people on the front lines have to put out fires all the time they get burnt out. They will question the competence and morality of leaders and management, and if there are too many fires, they will hopefully move on to better leadership.

  68. Dragoning*

    So work has been crazy busy lately, and last week, I was the only person on my team in the office (here, our teams consist of people who do basically the same job function), while we were absolutely slammed. On Friday, my director (I’m entry level, he’s my boss’s boss’ boss) came over to thank me personally once he pulled our metrics for the week and saw what I managed that week (while I was on lunch break, so I had a mouthful of ramen and Tumblr up, but…).

    My teammates are back this week, but I actually kinda…loved being the only one last week? I liked being busy, but I especially like all the compliments and recognition I got–especially since my teammates are employees of the company and I’m stuck in permalancing with no insurance or PTO.

    I’m also wondering if I can leverage this somehow into…well…employment, but also what kinds of things to look for as future career goals/promotions.

    1. Kathenus*

      A couple of random thoughts. See if you can get those metrics – what you accomplished the week you were the only one there versus the regular metrics when fully staffed – to use for a future resume/cover letter accomplishment.

      Second, not sure if the director is appropriate for this, depends on the culture of the organization, but there will never be a better time to try to have a conversation about potential roles with the organization than when you are being viewed favorably by senior management.

      Whether with the director, or your boss, or someone in between, could you ask for a meeting and discuss something like ‘I really enjoyed getting to jump in and help carry the load last week while people were out of town, and think I did so well. I would love to have a future with full time employment here, are there any things I can be doing to help prepare myself for that type of role?’

      Strike while the iron’s hot. Not asking (directly) for a FT job, but using your recent success as an inroad to a discussion about possible future opportunities. Good luck!

      1. Dragoning*

        Oh, I can get my metrics any time I want, actually!

        Contractor to FT-Employee is a really common path in this department. Seems to average around two to three years, but I get kicked off my parent’s insurance in 2019….

  69. Rookie Manager*

    In 90 minutes I am due to finish work for my holidays. My to do list has only got longer and longer as the day has gone on. Right now I’m worried my laptop is going to Paris with me!

    Any prioritisation/delegation tips you can give me for next time O Wise AAMers?

    1. miyeritari*

      Don’t bring your laptop. Period. “I won’t be be able to get to this before I go to Paris, so let me know when I get back and I’ll address it then.”

    2. OldJules*

      Delegate delegate delegate. Chances are your people know what to do and how to do it. Don’t bring your work on a holiday.

  70. Polly*

    Hello, I realise this might get buried with so many comments but I’d appreciate any advice from an HR perspective or from anyone who has been in a similar situation in an office.

    I’ll try to keep it to a shortened version. Over a week ago, I found an offensive note someone had left in my desk drawer where I keep my work shoes. It said (not using my real name here and I’ve edited a word): “Hi Polly, I have c*m in your shoe. x”. I was really upset about it and quite shaken up. I spoke to our office’s HR manager and the finger of suspicion was pointed towards some contractors who had been in the office out of hours on their own for ten days prior. I was assured they would be spoken to and the matter would be investigated. However that didn’t happen. They were spoken to on the phone and the company concerned were invited back into the office to complete the work they had been doing and this happened while I was present which made me very uncomfortable. They were asked about the incident and denied it and that was that. I was told once they had finished their work in the office that day, that they wouldn’t be coming back and I think as far as my employer is concerned, that is the matter dealt with and done.

    It emerged that the contractors/whoever it was had been in at other things at my desk, had left another offensive note at another woman’s desk and also poured hand cream into another woman’s shoes. I was not the only one targeted but it feels entirely unacceptable to me that nothing else has been done about it. There is no formal investigation being done either internally or with this company we hired.

    When I mentioned to my deputy manager that perhaps a note with that content might be a case for the police, she looked surprised so I didn’t bring that up again. It’s been eight working days now and aside from the informal chat my HR manager had with the contractors, nothing else has been done or said. Meanwhile I dread opening my drawer every morning to get my shoes. It just feels like this is very much not ok.

    I have no HR experience at all, so I’d appreciate any advice anyone can offer on what should have been done in this case. Thank you!

    1. Murphy*

      Ew, WTF? That’s completely inappropriate and disgusting. I’m sorry that happened to you.

      Has anyone actually used the words “sexual harassment”? Because that’s what it is, and it should be taken seriously.

      If they can’t prove who it is, I don’t know much they can do, but I’m not in HR either and someone who is might have more insight.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah my understanding is that the company HAS to provide a workplace free of harassment, they can’t just shrug about this. They’re opening themselves up to legal liability. Also, in my experience, when crimes occur everyone is quick to blame an outsider but its usually someone on the inside so I’m skeptical they’re even looking at the right people. I’m sorry this is happening to you.

    2. BadWolf*

      This is awful. And I would be concerned about the behavior escalating

      Perhaps you need to remind them that not only is someone harassing women at your office in a stalker-type fashion, someone is going through desks (at my job, that would be A Serious Problem) with permissions and someone is destroying personal property (I can’t imagine getting hand cream out of of the inside of shoes). If they’re willing to accept that the contractor didn’t do it…then someone in the office did and may continue.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Holy shit.

      Your employer needs to take this a lot more seriously. Write down everything that has happened, and keep your notes at home. If you feel able, go back to HR. Use the words “sexual harassment” and “hostile work environment.” Contact the EEOC.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        Also, follow your instinct and call the police. Get a copy of the police report, and forward it to company leadership (not just your boss) and the company attorney. Document everything.

    4. SpaceNovice*

      Hooooooly crap. There should have at least been an investigation and way more work done by HR to determine who had done it. It’s sexual harassment.

    5. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      First off, ughhh, what horrible behavior. But I’m curious about what you want to be done? If I read correctly the contractors aren’t returning. What else are you looking for HR to do?

    6. ..Kat..*

      Well, short of locking desks and after hours surveillance cameras, I am not sure what your company can do. That does not make this behavior acceptable, however.

      Please don’t try to file a police report – they have enough to do and this is not a crime. What could they possibly do about it?

    7. Former Retail Manager*

      To echo a couple others, what can the company do, nevermind the police? Your company doesn’t control independent contractors and has no standing to discipline the workers who pulled this crap in any way. Best case scenario, is that your company refuses to work with the contracted company again, and the foreman of the workers disciplines them in some way, but you would likely never be told about that. I’d lock all drawers and put away as many personal effects as you can. These guys are d-bags, without a doubt, but they are not employees of your company and not subject to disciplinary actions from your company.

    8. Kathenus*

      Kat’s response has some great ideas – locking drawers and cameras. I think you should ask for these to be provided for safety and security. I agree with others that without proof there may not be much they can do as far as getting rid of the contractors, but band together with the others in the office to go to HR/management and say that you have concerns for your safety from sexual harassment, and that you’d like to know what specific steps they are taking to address this. Then you can suggest lockers/locking drawers and cameras, but also leaving the door open to other ideas from their end. This sucks, and I’m so sorry you’re dealing with it.

    9. Polly*

      Thank you for the comments.
      In response to people asking what I’d like HR to do, I guess I would expect a formal investigation into the matter – if there is no certainty that it was the outside contractors then I’d expect an internal investigation. As this hasn’t happened, I was curious as to whether this is the the norm.
      If the finger of blame is absolutely being pointed at the contractors then I would have expected some kind of formal notice from my employer admitting they made an error and that they would be taking steps in the future to ensure to ensure the safety of the staff. Something like that? Replies here vary from OMG to Meh so I can see why my employer seems to have acted so casually also.
      Again, thanks to those who took the time to read and reply, it is appreciated.

    10. Unacademic*

      When I worked at a restaurant (not a bastion of functional HR generally), we had a series of incidients of theft – someone stealing money from coworker’s purses and jackets in their cubbies. Management set up a temporary camera, instituted a buddy system for the employee area (very inconvenient but very effective for preventing thefts!) and sat down with everyone present on the dates of the thefts one by one, asking us what we’d seen and whether we knew who the thief was. That person was quickly ferreted out and fired, the thefts stopped, camera went away, and we went back to using the areas as normal and trusting that our belongings were safe.

      My situation was a little different, but there are certainly enough parallels to make the point that there are a range of options available to deal with these things. Someone destroyed your coworker’s belongings, violated your privacy, and sexually harassed you and your coworkers. Those asking what you’d like HR to do are missing the point that it’s their job to figure out how to make you feel safe at work again, and it’s really not okay that they haven’t!

  71. rosa*

    I recently came back from maternity leave and my maternity cover has been given a job in our department, basically we needed another hire so the manager used my upcoming maternity leave to hire someone on a trial basis and if they did well she planned to give them the full time job opening up. This was no a problem I got on well enough with her her work was good.

    But then I made a comment in passing one lunch break soon after I got back where I referred to my baby daughter as my “screaming alarm clock” (because she wakes up without fail at 6am every morning). Suddenly my new coworker starts screaming at me for my lack of gratitude for having a child and how I deserve to have her taken away by social services. I was so shocked by this I said something like “wow that was an inappropriate reaction” and she ran off crying. Of course I told our manager because I was confused she had seemed normal until now. And my other coworker who witnessed this later told me this was out of character.

    The manager had a word with her and it turns out Jane has had several miscarriages and cannot afford IVF so she is oversensitive to baby talk. I do not go on and on about my daughter (I am aware that just because I find her fascinating does not mean my coworkers do), aside from my first day back when people were asking me questions about her I think this was the first time I had mentioned her in the week and a half since I got back. My manager asked me to be sensitive which I was willing to do. But now it has got to the stage where I cannot even mention my daughter within Jane’s ear shot without her interrupting. For example last week my daughter had a fever so the babysitter called me and I asked my manager if I could go home Jane interrupts and says I should stay at home with my baby and if I did she wouldn’t get sick. She never apologized for screaming at me in the first place which I would put down to embarrassment if she didn’t continue acting hostilely.

    Of course she does the same to the other coworkers with children (my other coworkers have older children and apparently she did not do this before I returned from maternity leave) to the point where we don’t speak to her unless necessary for work because if we do we are scared we will say something that will make her scream at us again. So now she is telling the manager we are bullying her. We have never said unkind things, we have never been rude, we have however not invited her out to lunch or made small talk because every time we talk to her she makes comments about our parenting skills (even when the topic is not child related e.g what we watched on tv last night, the weather).

    I personally think she has underlying issues and needs help. However as our company offers great perks included free therapy I do not see why she does not make use of it. Its a perk many people would love and I myself have used it before so I know it is a quality service. But I cannot really tell her to get therapy and I would not be annoyed at this if the company did not offer it as I know how expensive it can be and how long the waiting lists are but she has it on a silver platter essentially.

    So what do I do? I can’t talk to her because she always turns the topic back to children and criticises me even when I have not mentioned children at all. But when I don’t talk to her (unless for work obviously) then she complains about being bullied. My manager agrees with me but won’t do anything about it because she is afraid of upsetting Jane (she is very conflict adverse).

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I hate to say this, but I don’t think there’s a whole lot you can do about this. Your manager needs to suck it up and have a conversation with Jane about how inappropriate her behavior is. I mean, yes, you and your coworkers should be considerate and not talk excessively about your children in front of her, but she also needs to not go bananacrackers on the rare occasions that it comes up.

      Have they already offered her the permanent position or can they phase her out? It doesn’t sound like she’s a good fit.

      1. Anonymosity*

        I agree. Being sensitive to Jane does not mean you should have to put up with this sort of behavior.

    2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Oy. I’d say avoid her as best you can in the short term; it doesn’t sound like you’re rubbing your kid in her face, and sometimes people’s kids come up in conversation. She needs to learn to deal with that. And if you get an unpleasant reaction from her either way (criticisms of your parenting vs accusations of bullying), then I’d pick the option that gets you more peace, which is presumably avoiding her.

      Is there someone above your manager you can talk to, or maybe another manager who might be able to talk to your manager and encourage your manager to talk to Jane? Maybe HR, if you have it, could encourage her to get the help she clearly needs (not meant as an insult) or at least have the conversation with her that your manager should be having.

    3. Anna Canuck*

      Is there anyone that works with your EAP that can encourage her to take the benefits and use them? We have both a coordinator and peer advisors who’s role it is to push people into the help they need (um, gently push, but move them in that direction when they’re not there by themselves).
      This is a manager’s role. Someone needs to deal with her behaviour.

    4. Julia*

      Oh boy. Screaming at you was NOT okay, no matter how upset she was. And her bringing up your “terrible parenting” all the time makes me think that talking about other people’s kids isn’t actually that upsetting to her…

      I have a bully who’s “going through a rough time” right now, and I have decided to myself that she still doesn’t gain the right to bully me. Whether Jane could be helped by therapy or not is her issue (and I don’t think you can CBT the jerk out of someone who wants to be a jerk), but I hope your entire group will show a united front to your boss on this. She needs to make Jane stop screaming at you and berating you.

      1. irene adler*

        Exactly. You, and any other co-workers whom Jane has yelled at, are not the verbal punching bags for her personal issues. She’s got to understand being ugly to you all isn’t going to improve her situation one bit (hello, management?).

    5. Courageous cat*

      Let her accuse you of bullying. You are under no obligation to talk to her except politely and professionally when necessary for work. If your boss agrees with you, then no more needs to be done. Her behavior is unacceptable in the workplace no matter what’s going on.

      1. Kj*

        I’d also be documenting this to kingdom come! Every time she makes a comment about someone’s parenting, kids or acts in any way inappropriate. If their is a an investigation, you’ll need that.

        1. Ciara Amberlie*

          Yes. Unfortunately she seems like she may make a formal complaint (or even talk to a lawyer) about the “bullying”. You want to have your ducks in a row and be able to provide evidence that not only are you NOT bullying her, but that she is in fact the one who is behaving unreasonably.

    6. WellRed*

      Time for the group to approach management (or HR?), but probably management. One condition of most reasonable workplaces is not criticizing your coworkers for their parenting skills and other life choices.

    7. ronda*

      I think you need to tell Jane that it is really inappropriate for her to yell at you and she needs to stop. (there are other things you can tell her but I would just stick with this one for now) — Tell her this at the begining of you next day at work.

      Every time she starts yelling, say “Jane, you are yelling at me again. please stop talking to me until you can control yourself.”
      Don’t say anything else, just look at her until she stops. Be calm, don’t yell back or show any other signs of emotion.

      This won’t be a comfortable thing to do, but if she keeps doing this you will eventually get used to it & she won’t find yelling at you as satisfying.

      Once you get her trained about this behavior, you can move onto the next most disruptive behavior.

  72. DrWombat*

    Two months in to the new job, and I am picking up more and more. I am still struggling hard with imposter syndrome though – today especially I got told to go inside early and start in on data analysis, because my back is really angry with me and I was going slower than average, but also the intern kept having to take over, and she’s new here but is also a lot more experienced with heavy labor. I also had to ask my coworker to help out on something earlier this week because the heat really got to me and I got sick despite trying to pace myself and stay hydrated. I basically went from zero exercise to 6 hours/day (and having v little time to exercise finishing my PhD) but I feel like I am really having a hard time building up the endurance and muscle required of this job, which means either we go slower or others have to help me out, and we are still understaffed so it puts us behind schedule, but so does me moving slower because I’m just not as physically strong as everyone else.

    I struggled with some injury-related health issues during grad school (one bike accident, two sports injuries) and I was really aggressive during physical therapy the last year of my PhD so that I -could- be active again (that was most of the exercise I got tbh) so I feel like I should be further along than I am in terms of being able to catch up, but I’m getting winded or my back hurts or my shoulders hurt and even with painkillers and being super stubborn and trying hard, I still worry I am not pulling my weight. I took this job because I thought I could handle the physical demands if given enough ramp up time, but I’m also the physically weakest person here and I feel bad about it. This is my first real job out of grad school, and I admit, I’m pretty petrified that between this and some other minor issues (Excel borked a lot of data and so now I have to redo a ton of analysis, for example) that I am not doing well enough or that I’m letting people down, and that terrifies me.

    Anyone have advice/tips? Am I just seeing this super magnified because of anxiety and imposter syndrome? Even a logic check would be helpful, I’m just pretty mad at myself right now and feeling like I am letting people down.

    1. MissingArizona*

      You need a physical, and you need to stretch. Go to the doctor. Also, make sure you’re using proper lifting/moving techniques, that can really hurt you. Lots of water, lots or protein. Do you move around after work, or just hit the computer/tv? Doing some regular walking can help “cool down” your muscles.

    2. BuffaLove*

      I think there’s an element of adjusting with jobs like that, especially if you’re not crazy active outside of work. I do some field work but I’m really thinking about my friend who is an archaeologist and does long days in the field with a lot of manual labor. She has all kinds of horror stories about almost passing out from dehydration, being so tired and sore from digging that she fell asleep in her field clothes on the floor of her hotel room, etc. She’s good at her job and has been able to move up the ranks a bit. It’s just hard work.

      The fact that you’re dealing with old injuries means you might need some special care, and that’s okay. They hired you and want to see you succeed, so try to frame it that way in your head. If there’s something you can do to help yourself – going back to PT, maybe – then you should pursue it, but otherwise please try to be kind to yourself and give yourself more time to adapt to the work.

    3. DrWombat*

      Well my boss came by regarding scheduling for this weekend, and asked me if I’d be comfortable with one arrangement of people on tasks/equipment, and when I suggested an alternate option, we discussed why and she asked where the bottleneck was. I admitted it was me, and that I wasn’t as fast at shoveling or hauling feed as everyone else, and she said ok, let’s rearrange stuff the. She then pre-empted me by saying she figured the next question would be was I letting her down, and said everyone takes their own time to get up to speed, it’s ok. So that’s reassuring.

      BuffaLove is right though, the way we are so swamped right now, I have just enough time/energy to shower, do dishes, and eat dinner before I have to collapse on the couch for 2 hours till bed. “Outside of work” is about 3-4 hours after work on weekdays and maybe 8 on weekends I haven’t biked since moving, even with the bike trainer that makes it stationary. Hoping as things get less hectic I can have time, but I still need to finish unpacking >< I might look for a PT once the new insurance kicks in, but I still also have the resistance band/exercise sheet from my last PT – I've just not had any time/energy to keep up.

      I know this is a combo of imposter syndrome and being waaay harder on myself than I should necessarily be. Once new insurance kicks in, I will be addressing that with a therapist. In the meantime, at least I get a bit of vacation next week! Thanks, y'all, for the logic check and reassurance.

  73. Julia*

    I’m in the final throes of writing my master’s thesis (deadline is Tuesday and I have yet to write the discussion part, oops) and shouldn’t be here, but I am.

    Another woman in my grad program and same small class (my supervisor puts everyone he teaches into one class, it’s a common system in Japan) has spiraled into something over the past two semesters and we went from pretty close to her declaring me her enemy. This means that I don’t get invited to group outings (and then she later posts on Facebook how they formed this new club without me), when I talk to other people in the class, she interrupts but doesn’t talk to me, just asks the other person something, and she’s now siding with the class misogynist despite her assurances last year that after he had been particularly rude to me, the other women would be on my side.

    I know that none of this really matters and that I’ll be done soon, and I have other friends and a husband etc., but some of this has really triggered my memories from fifth grade, where the main mean girl suddenly stopped being my friend and turned everyone against me. Even the professor has picked up on it and told me that she’s not quite right at the moment, and asked if I was okay. I know that mental health issues are tough – in fact, I took a long break from this very program due to depression and came back last year to all these new people – but I also don’t think that mental illness turns anyone into a bully.

    I wish I knew why this is happening to me again… Things were going so well last year. :(

    1. Alternative Person*

      Sending sympathy your way.

      Some people just turn on the flip of a coin. And instead of talking or just keeping on, they decide to be awful about it.

      Congrats at being near the deadline. I cleared a big deadline this week and celebrated with Mixed Berry and Caramel popcorn from Garret’s in Harajuku.

      1. Julia*

        Congratulations!!

        I know that some people are like this, but I wonder why I tend to be their target. Just before she snapped, I had invited her into my home for Christmas because she couldn’t go home, and then I heard from someone else that she had booked a vacation and didn’t tell me. She apologized, and I didn’t accept right away because I was too baffled. I also told her that one thing she had done to me and the other woman was not cool (basically, she volunteered us for an assignment to lower the chances she’d have to do it), and after that we never spoke again and she suddenly started all this…

        1. Alternative Person*

          Ah. I’ve had stuff like this happen to me a few times too.

          I don’t know if there is an explanation beyond some people are flakes and don’t know how to fade out gracefully.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      This really sucks. It would be easy to just let this go until you’re finished with your thesis (congratulations, btw!) and then go on your way. There would be nothing wrong with that.

      On the other hand, though, would it make you feel better to (politely and calmly) stand up for yourself? “Wow, Carol, that was a really mean thing to say.” “Excuse me, we were talking. Thanks!” You certainly don’t have to, but I think if it were me I would feel better if I tried it. You don’t deserve to be treated this way. You don’t have to put up with this in your classroom and a public space.

      1. Julia*

        Thank you! For now, I’m really focused and doing okay, but when it first started, I had some pretty bad days. Luckily she doesn’t come to class every week. I know it’s mean to say that, because she’s ill, but it’s a relief for me when she’s not there.

        I think the whole issue started when I did stand up for myself. I explained it in the comment above, she started getting weird and mean and I calmly told her it wasn’t cool, and then she started cutting me off. At first I was just worried she was harming herself because I hadn’t heard from her, but now I just want to be left alone.

        The thing is, since according to the prof she is kind of volatile right now, I feel like I should ignore her instead of addressing her, because I don’t know how she’ll react. Apparently she doesn’t have the best grasp on reality these days, some paranoia, and that may be why she’s acting like this. I don’t think he should have given me these details, but I’m glad he did.

        I’m mostly upset that everyone else is letting her do it. I always stand up for my friends, but now they’re all immediately pulled away from me. I don’t think they dislike me, I can sit with whoever isn’t in the cold spot near the air vent, and they’re all nice, but it really hurts me that one woman can be so excluding and one of the guys so sexist and rude (one time he literally waved me away like a dog!) and everyone jokes around with them instead of trying to maybe keep talking to me when I start a conversation. One of the older guys has been pretty good in keeping me involved, but the younger folks…

        1. Inspector Spacetime*

          Fair enough. If she’s got all these issues then it’s probably best not to engage.

          Having everyone else just toe the line sounds infuriating. I get that it’s hard to rock the boat in uncomfortable social situations but c’mon, people. This isn’t junior high.

          1. Julia*

            Thank you! Junior high is a pretty fair comparison right now. Maybe I’m being targeted *because* I’m the only one who has ever stood up to her before? The other woman in the class has complained to me that ProblemWoman has said really mean things to her, but she’s a real pushover and keeps ditching me for her…

    3. Soupspoon McGee*

      This all sounds so frustrating. I was able get through the PERSONALITIES of grad school and of various workplaces was emotionally distancing myself from the drama while remembering that I would soon be moving on to something better, and they would be stuck with their miserable selves. Picture the lot of them sitting in a circle–in a pit of bitterness and stress and sexism–and some will move on to better things, and some will be there for a long time. You all have a way out of there, and you are almost there.

      1. Julia*

        Thank you! I think you’re absolutely right, and I will do that.
        It’s just… this thing kind of keeps happening, in school, at work, and I’m at a point where it’s becoming really frustrating for me. Apparently, people do get away with being mean and sexist…

  74. Dragoning*

    Advice, please:

    I have a network-y breakfast things for my company next week. I’ve never been to one of these, and it’s specifically for project managers–of which my only project is tiny and fairly insignificant, and it’s not really my main job title.

    I am terrified No one else from my department will be going, so this will be full of total strangers.

    Any suggestions what to do, say, and how to present myself?

    1. OtterB*

      Be prepared with an “elevator speech” brief description of your project and of your own background to break the ice when someone asks what you do.

      If people are standing around talking, look for someone who isn’t talking to someone else and introduce yourself, “Hi, my name is Glenda, I’m in the x office and I work on project Y. How about you?” You may or may not want to include “I haven’t been to one of these breakfast meetings before, have you?”

      1. Dragoning*

        I’m only 25! This my first stable “career” esque job I’ve had since college graduation. I have no background.

        1. Blank*

          You’ve been to college! That’s a background. Last week I was a new person at a high-profile national event, and I found that telling people I was new and asking for tips on how to navigate things worked as an icebreaker. Folks love being helpful. (As in, for example: this comment thread.)

          1. Dragoning*

            That might work! Because I look way younger than I actually am, too, and I’m sure to look terrified.

            Maybe all the people my dad’s age will take pity on me…

        2. BuffaLove*

          Just because you’re young doesn’t mean your background isn’t relevant or interesting to people! In my experience as someone a few years older than you, people LOVE to see younger people at events like that. You can talk about where you went to school, why you chose the field, when you started at your company, if it’s your first job out of college, etc. You don’t need to have a super polished spiel prepared, just try to be the most positive, enthusiastic, professional version of you.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Wear something sharp that makes you feel confident, and ask lots of questions. Use this as an opportunity to learn more about project management and your coworkers. Let other people do the talking.

      Good luck! I hate networking things but I find that if I just ask a lot of questions and let others talk, that goes over well, and I learn a lot.

      1. Dragoning*

        I’m trying to think of what kinds of questions to ask….”are you a full time project manager?” “What department/division do you work for?” “How did you get into doing this?”

        Maybe?

        1. OtterB*

          Maybe how long have they been with the company/in the role? And, if it’s more than you, ask what they know now that they wish they’d known when they first started?

          1. Dragoning*

            Technically, I’m not even an employee of the company. I’m a contractor. Everyone there will definitely have been here longer than me

            My one year anniversary is later this month, actually.

        2. irene adler*

          Yes. Since this event is for project managers, you can ask folks to talk about their current project(s), most enjoyable project they ever worked on, how they got to be a project manager (i.e. what interested them in the field), and ask if they have any words of advice for a rookie project manager.

    3. OldJules*

      Be the listener :) I downplay myself in these kinds of meetings but instead use it as a leverage to meet and learn new things. People love to talk about their projects and expertise.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      When I have to go to these kinds of things, I plan to go with a buddy. Is there someone in your department who is invited who you can casually ask if they’d like to go together? I’m not sure about the timing of it, but walk over together, ride together, meet up 10 mins early for a cup of coffee before it starts maybe?

  75. OtterB*

    HR for a small not-for-profit.

    We have 16 full time and 1 part time employee and don’t see that changing much. We used to be smaller – 9 employees – and our Executive Director handled all HR functions, backstopped by the office manager. As we’ve grown the office manager role has been split over several people and having the ED do HR isn’t working as well as he has other calls on his time and attention. As background, our benefits are good. We have an insurance broker who’s been with us since before the ED started and manages our signup for health insurance etc. Our outsourced accountants take care of signups for pre-tax accounts and, I think, our 503(b) plan. We have a staff liaison from our board who is someone to go to if we have any concerns that we aren’t comfortable taking to the ED, and all the people in the role since I’ve been here have been very approachable. Hiring is dealt with by the hiring manager. We have a lot of flexibility (e.g. around WFH) and like it that way and don’t want to risk losing that to formalizing things.

    It’s come up in staff discussions that people feel a need for more HR support. The areas people feel strongly about are better information and more responsive information about benefits (e.g. how to put a new baby on the health insurance, how to sign up for this or that) and onboarding/offboarding (mainly benefits but also a checklist of things like how to manage the email address when someone leaves). Some of this is simply centralizing information – right now it’s hard to figure out who to ask or where to find things out.

    We clearly don’t need someone full time in an HR role. We’re looking at HR outsourcing but think our needs may not be large enough to be worth paying someone for it. We’re also considering having someone from the staff take this on and I’m thinking about volunteering. I’m a long-time staff member with no direct reports and as far as I know a good collegial relationship with everyone.

    What are other high-priority areas we should be concerned about? What should I personally be concerned about if I volunteer for the role?

    1. WellRed*

      Well, we have a similar sized company and our HR person is also the office manager and payer of bills, etc. We are lucky in that she has special HR certification and attends occassional HR type educational sessions, like the latest on oh, tax laws that might apply or whatever. I wouldn’t volunteer for this (even though I can see why it is appealing). It could end up being more work than you expect and you don’t sound like you would get compensated. What if someone came to you with a tricky situation or something requiring knowledge you don’t have? What if you gave a well-meaning but wrong answer and messed up someone’s health insurance?(that almost happened to me, but I caught it). Are you willing to distance yourself from your coworkers? because HR cannot be friends with staff. Do you consider yourself discreet? Fair? Open minded?
      Those are things I would consider.

      1. OtterB*

        Thanks. I was thinking about some of these already but will think about the others.

    2. Hamburke*

      Some payroll companies offer ad hoc hr pro services and there’s a couple other conpanies that (KinHR is one that one of my clients use). And you might find a local small business who will do it.

  76. DoctorateStrange*

    Had a foul day yesterday. I don’t know what it is about other library employees deciding to go around particular policies in order to make their shift easier. Do they not realize how much more difficult they make it for their colleagues? I was doing a procedure with a patron and the patron blew up at me for six or so minutes because he never “had to do this with the other girl.”

    And then now that two of our best maintenance workers have retired, there is so much drama now just to get the remaining one to clean up simple spills and whatnot. She’s nice enough and all, but she gossips when she needs to be working and when she is on the floor, she mysteriously forgets her walkie-talkie.

    2. A Queen Victorious*

      +10000000000000

      I’m one of the only sticklers at the circ desk of my library, meaning I get tons of flack from patrons for not doing the things “the other lady did for me!”

      Sorry, folks. Policies + keeping my job > placating you.

  77. MissingArizona*

    So I’ve been gearing up for my job search for the last few months, and I’ve gotten my regular resume, and my narrative resume, put together. I want a federal job on base, it will be easier when we have to go to a new base, cause I’ll just transfer. But I know I’ll have an easier time getting a civilian job. I really want a federal job, I just don’t know how long it should hold out for one, or if I should get a civilian job, and keep trying for federal since it’ll take forever. I don’t even know what kind of advice I need for this.

    1. Mananana*

      Please check out “The Resume Place” website that is a part of Kathryn Troutman’s work. She’s the Queen of Federal Resumes and USAJOBS. You don’t have to buy her books — just look over the free resources on her website, along with her youtube videos. Because the federal job process is just SO different, it helps to know some tricks.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I’d like to 2nd The Resume Place as a military spouse jobs resource. I browsed the site this morning, and at the very bottom is a short article on the help being provided to military spouses at Ft. Rucker regarding the federal jobs application process. In addition to seeking out your next base’s community services office for more information on when spouse employment classes take place, you should note the titles of the books on Troutman’s website because public libraries often carry copies available for checkout (sometimes they are older copies, true). Doing that will at least get you started with familiarizing yourself with the federal application process and resume format before you make the next move. There’s also absolutely nothing stopping you from working another job while you apply. In fact, if you eventually *do* get a M-F type of federal job, you can work for the feds during the week, as well as work another job (I do, on weekends), but you’ll have to fill out a form (of course!) to get approval to do that. Good luck!

  78. Aldebaran*

    I am five months into a new job in a new industry. I like my colleagues and I like what I do. We are in the midst of a major project (a web redesign and content migration) for a large organization. I found out yesterday that we have no plans set or strategy for tackling the migration of a crucial aspect of the new website. We were just doing things ad hoc and as they come.

    This is a bit alarming to me but nonetheless I want to help my team succeed. I also think that my past experiences with web redesigns and content migrations can be helpful in developing a strategy and approach to this project.

    What I don’t want to happen, however, is to step on toes as I expose and say aloud the reality that we do not have a plan or strategy and that we need one. Any tips on how to delicately introduce this topic to my teammates and to our project manager without stepping on toes or stepping over my boundaries?

    1. JMS*

      As the victim of a rushed content migration that left a lot of loose ends and unanswered questions, my team is currently trying to sift through tons of little problems and it’s really annoying! So good on you for spotting the impending train wreck.

      Since you DO have previous experience with content migration, you might frame it as something like, “I noticed we haven’t made decisions yet about X, Y and Z, which are really important to the new website. Something that’s worked well for my web redesign projects in the past is creating a detailed plan ahead of time so we could be more efficient and make sure we’re getting all the little details right. Is that something I can help with?” I think volunteering to do the work would be a good approach because then your team can see that you’re not trying to delay the project or give people more work–you’re doing the work to make their work easier.

      Good luck!

  79. Non Sequitor*

    My boss is a new mom. Had her baby about 6 months ago. When she came back she arranged to leave daily at 4pm and scheduled pumping 3 times a day. I begrudge her none of this. But, quite honestly, lately, I’ve felt like I’ve had to pick up her slack. I ran the department while she was out, and now that she’s back, it’s almost like she expects me to handle the inglorious tasks, while she attends to anything shiny. This includes me attending late evening meetings, working on orphan projects that she hasn’t assigned anyone to (I’m asked to do a task here and there and then down the road it becomes my project since I know it best). I get the feeling she prides herself on being flexible, collaborative, and positive — but to be honest, while she’s a perfectly nice person — she’s not flexible or collaborative. I have no idea what she does all day, which is probably why I’m becoming increasingly bitter about the work I’m doing because there’s literally no structure or context around it. I’m beginning to feel taken advantage of and I’m not quite sure there’s a way to fix it.

    I’ve both prompted a discussion (with suggestions) about orphan projects and followed-up and nothing has been done. I’ve mentioned that the late evening meetings are beginning to become more abundant and that a little sharing would be much appreciated. She’ll take these suggestions for about a week, before they fall by the way side.

    She’s a new manager (as well as being a new mom) and I’m really trying to be supportive here — but there’s some burn out happening. A new job isn’t possible right now, there are several very significant reasons why staying in this job (or at least finding the right transfer) is important. So, I need to find ways of managing myself with my manager.

    1. Nita*

      Well, if all else fails, can you come to her with a list of all the extra things you’re doing and ask for a raise?

      And do you have a good enough relationship with her that you can ask her about taking on more evening meetings, but at the same time ask if she has child care for that time? When I was a new mom, things that were before/after hours were the absolute hardest for many reasons, and I couldn’t have worked late hours ever if my husband wasn’t on board with solo parenting while I’m gone. If she doesn’t have the support at home… she probably can’t do the evening meetings.

      That doesn’t mean she can’t take the other extra work off your shoulders, though! It sounds like she’s generally struggling as a manager and making your life harder as a result. I hope things improve with time. If not, you could always use the fact that you’re effectively an assistant manager/manager to build up your resume…

      1. Non Sequitor*

        I totally get it, though from what I understand, her husband is pretty supportive and she’s definitely a feminist who believes in parental equality in regard to child care. Still, I do appreciate the challenges of after hours work when one has kids. (As a singleton, though, I think it’s unfair to expect the singles without kids to pick up the slack)

        During my 1-on-1s we’ve discussed the issues I mentioned a couple of times. Initially her response was no one should go to these late evening meetings, which was rejected by her boss. I asked last week about another orphan project, and she told me that I should handle these for now until she can figure out how to coordinate them.

        Looks like the best course of action is to keep lobbing these things back across the net to her and hope she takes the ball and runs with it. :/

        1. ..Kat..*

          Hmm. Can you come up with a plan for these orphan projects and suggest it?

          It sounds as if you are the go-to person for late meetings, but they will send someone else if you say no. Can you come up with a plan for this? As in you take all meetings pertaining to X, another person takes all meetings pertaining to Y, and so forth. Also, if you are doing late meetings, will they meet you half way and let you have a more flexible schedule?

    2. BadWolf*

      I think change will only happen when it has to change — otherwise things are totally working fine for your manager. Start declining some of the late meetings. What will happen? Either a third person covers, manager covers or maybe these late meeting aren’t really so important for your group to be on? Even if you could be on every meeting, eventually you’ll be sick or on vacation.

      1. Non Sequitor*

        I’ve declined a few. They send someone else and then the next one is referred back to me. So, things don’t have to change, as far as my manager is concerned. It’s nice to have someone on-staff who has been at the company for awhile and who knows how to do things without much instruction. I just how to figure out how to be a pleasant squeaky wheel so she gets tired of hearing about these things without getting tired of me.

    3. Teapotastrophe*

      Can you make a list of all of the things you’ve been picking up since your boss has returned? Every project, task, meeting. Drown her with sheer numbers. See if she’ll let you flex your schedule when you have late night meetings. At the very least, get a raise because you’ve taken over so much more responsibility. I know asking for a raise is way easier to recommend than actually do (guilty).

    4. OldJules*

      I don’t have any useful help but I face the same thing but without her being out on maternity. I have to do all the drudge work because my turnaround time is so quick. Recently in our meeting, I told her that I’m overburdened and I will start saying no. The deluge stopped. She knows I’m done and if nothing changes I will burn out.

    5. Ciara Amberlie*

      I think you need to be clear with your manager about how much additional work you’re doing (beyond your normal job), explain that it’s not sustainable and ask which tasks she’d like you to prioritise.

      She has a couple of options. She can ramp her work back up (taking on the evening meetings etc.) if she is willing and able to do that. Or she can accept that the capacity of your department is reduced, due to her reduced capacity, and find a way to reduce the department’s overall workload to accommodate this.

      What she absolutely should not be doing is keeping the department’s workload the same, while she has a reduced capacity, and expecting you to pick up all of the slack.

      I know that you mentioned above that the idea of cutting evening meetings was rejected by her boss. But to be blunt, that’s her problem, not yours. As a manager, she should be going back to her boss and working out a solution for her reduced availability; it is a fundamental part of her job. And by not doing that, she is failing as a manager.

      I think you need to spell all of this out for her. Be nice, of course, because it doesn’t sound like she’s a bad person. But as a new manager, I suspect she hasn’t really understood the effect that this is having on you, and won’t understand until you explicitly tell her that you are on your way to burn out.

  80. Beancounter in Texas*

    This is the worse timing. This Monday, performance review time was announced, with a due date of today. It’s also the first week of the month, so we’re busy reconciling 100+ banks and closing May for 91 entities on top of any daily workload. We’re also transitioning from one accounting software package to another – yay, learning curve!

    On Wednesday, I was out of the office with my husband, who had a biopsy done, and received an initial pathology report of lymphoma of the bone. The tumor is painful and he’s not sleeping well (which means I’m not sleeping well), but he’s resting and I’m at work, trying to focus on what I did in 2017.

    I don’t feel like tooting my own horn. I’m going to be googling lots of “performance review” phrases today.

    2. Beancounter in Texas*

      Oh, brother. The review questions are not questions at all, but statements. Question 1 is “Seeks to improve in all aspects of work performance.” The next one, “Builds internal/external customer respect and loyalty.”

      *head desk*

      1. gecko*

        UGH. Not only is that annoying on its own, these kinds of things just get SO HORRIBLE when other horrible stuff is happening at the same time. Also what the hell are you supposed to write in response to those? “Yup”?

  81. Butch Cassidy*

    I feel like I keep asking questions on the same theme each week, but little questions keep coming up and help is always appreciated!

    My boss wants to pick up weekly 1/1’s with the team again, and for the first one he wants us to think about short, medium, and long term goals for our careers and discuss with him so he can guide us appropriately.

    Problem is, my long-term goal is to get out of the corporate world completely and become a chaplain (probably) and my medium-term goal is to get out of my job by the end of the year (the job itself is okay, but I’m growing very tired of it and my political qualms with the role my employer has in shaping my city makes things really difficult). How can I be honest with my boss while not coming across like I’m giving my notice?

    1. Soupspoon McGee*

      Frame your goals as what you DO want to learn and do, rather than what you don’t want. In the next year, what kinds of skills or connections could your boss help you with that will both make your work life better now and pave the way to what you’d like to do next?

  82. Inopportune Moose*

    If you get therapy via your company’s EAP and it comes out that your boss did something illegal, do they tell your company about that?

    My boss substantially diminished my role while I was out on medical leave. I wasn’t sure I’d live, and I really, really resent what he did… but my experience with this HR department is that if I complain, they won’t protect me from retaliation.

    Relatedly, I’m job-searching. What would you say about your reason for leaving? Unfortunately, “looking for new challenges” is 100% out.

    1. Canarian*

      Most EAPs have very prominent disclaimers that they don’t tell your employer if you use their services (at least mental health/substance addiction related ones). You can check with your EAP directly instead of talking to HR, if you can’t find any information about it on their website/plan information.

      You can also double check on this, but I would think the same confidentiality rules apply whether or not your boss violated some employment law in the past. Exceptions and obligations for reporting on illegal activity are generally confined to child abuse, contemplated future or ongoing crimes, and imminent danger, not something that’s already happened.

    2. OtterB*

      I think “my role has been reduced” is reasonable. Then do your best to put a positive spin by continuing with “and that means I have been doing less x [where x is a major function of the new position] and I’d like to get back to that.”

    3. Jillociraptor*

      You can ask your EAP about their confidentiality rules before you share something by asking them what they are mandated to report. Many good counselors (and HR people for that matter) are savvy enough to predict where you might be going and let you know before you say the thing out loud that it will spark an action so you can weigh that with what you want to share.

  83. Sapphire*

    Unemployment thread! Feel free to talk about how your job searches are going.

    My temp assignment is ending earlier than I expected, so I’m slightly freaking out about that. However, I think I might have a ray of hope. After following a company for about a year, I attended one of their networking happy hours last night, and all three recuruiters there remembered me, and even said they were keeping me in mind for future positions. This morning, a position in customer support opened up, which would be a good fit for me to start out in that company, so I applied to it straight away. Fingers crossed this leads to something!

    1. Sapphire*

      …and never mind. I’m pretty sure that was the fastest job rejection I’ve had so far (new record?) The reasons were legit and had nothing to do with me, but still. I’m really afraid my one job I got fired from is the only full time permanent job I’ll ever have, and I’ll be a temp for the rest of my career. Sorry it’s not better news, I’m just so frustrated and scared.

      1. Karo*

        Ugh – no advice here, just internet hugs from a stranger. The fast rejections are just the worst – tied right up there with being told you were their second choice.

        1. Sapphire*

          Right? This was a timing issue (the team had too many candidates already, the company still wants to hire me), but it still stings. Thank you.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I hope you hear something good on it soon!

      I haven’t had much luck – applying to about 3 jobs/week, seeing a lot of the same ones posted over and over again, and not hearing back on almost any of them. I did just get a notice that I “meet minimum qualifications” for a part-time research job, so my application’s been moved on to the hiring team. I thought the phrasing was interesting, in that it’s a grudging admission that I might be a viable candidate. The few times I’ve heard from companies it’s usually “We’d love to set up a time to chat!” or something, you know, positive.

      1. Sapphire*

        If you haven’t seen my reply to my own comment, it was not good news.

        I’ve seen “meet the minimum qualifications” phrasing in government jobs sometimes, but agree, it doesn’t feel very positive. I’m sorry you’re having a hard time of it too

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Shoot, I hadn’t refreshed the page when I wrote so I missed that. Been there on the immediate rejection, it sucks. *fist bump of solace*

    3. KayEss*

      After six months of only getting interest from the worst, weirdest companies (seriously, it’s been like a game of “spot the reddest red flag in this official red flag day parade”)… I may finally have a shot at a decent job at a decent place that will also get my foot in the door toward all the better opportunities in my industry that are currently rejecting me. Unfortunately the interview had to be scheduled for the end of the month because the hiring manager has a block of vacation between now and then, so I get to majorly stress out for the next three weeks.

    4. Woman of a Certain Age*

      I’m feeling kind of down. The only job offers I seem to get don’t really pay enough and I can’t seem to make it beyond being a finalist at the decent-paying jobs that I’ve applied for.

      I’m having a bit of a time getting beyond the gas lighting I went through at my previous toxic job. I also worry that (some) potential employers might think I’m too old. I’m not, but I understand the appeal of hiring someone perky in their 20s or 30s. I don’t feel perky.

  84. Let's Bagel*

    Help – Post Maternity Leave Burnout!

    Hi everyone, I’d really appreciate any advice on this. I just had my second child a few months ago, and after taking the full allotment of maternity leave my company allows (18 weeks, which is considered generous here in the US), I am now back at work. And basically, I’m miserable.

    When I had my first child a few years ago, I returned to work after maternity leave and was very emotional about leaving her, but pretty quickly I adjusted to our new routine. I was tired of course, but part of me was glad to be back at work and I had never intended to stay at home, so it was fine. This time, however, feels completely different. Trying to get this whole routine working with a toddler and a baby and two full time working parents is just making my husband and I crazy. We are extremely fortunate to be able to afford to “outsource” a decent number of chores/duties (e.g., we have the house cleaned every two weeks, we have our groceries delivered, etc.) so I fully recognize that what I’m complaining about here is a very first world problem. However, it’s still a problem because we can’t seem to find a routine that works.

    My son is not sleeping well at all, still being so young, and I’m still nursing, so essentially I’m up half the night with him and then a walking zombie the next morning. Our morning routine is fairly calm, but then I head to work where I’m completely overwhelmed, exhausted and sleep-deprived, and oh yeah–I have to interrupt what I’m doing twice a day to pump. I came back at a busy time and a lot of things were thrown at me immediately, so I’m just struggling to keep up. Old me would be able to handle this no problem; current me is absolutely drowning. The sleep deprivation is a real factor here; I truly feel like I’m being asked to do calculus while drunk. Not gonna end well!

    The day ends when I pick up the kids from daycare (after they’ve spent 10 hours there, which is the shortest amount of time that my husband and I can logistically squeeze their day down to but even that still kills me because it’s so long) and we all rush home. Then it’s time for dinner, showers, baths, bedtime stories, bedtime arguments, negotiations about “5 more minutes,” crying (mostly from me, but some from the baby too) and my husband and I both just eventually collapse. Ultimately I feel like I am not getting any quality time with my kids–every day is just 2 hours of arguing, negotiating and attempting to put out fires. Never do we just get to PLAY or enjoy each other’s company.

    My husband, who has been wonderful throughout all of this and is absolutely shouldering his share of the childcare and household duties, suggested I talk to my boss about lightening my load a bit while things are crazy. My boss is amazing; she also has a young child and “gets it,” but I don’t feel like that’s a fair thing to ask of her. It’s not like they’re lightening my salary! Plus she’s already had to pick up my slack while I was out on leave; I don’t think it’s fair to ask for more at this point.

    Everything kind of came crashing down yesterday when I was frantically working on a report that’s due on Monday (and thinking to myself, OMG HOW AM I GOING TO GET THIS DONE IN TIME) and a coworker who is senior to me called me up and said, “How’s that report coming? I thought I’d have it by now.” I said, “Oh, you mean this one that I’m working on?” and she said, “No….” She then went on to describe a completely. Different. Report. That she says she asked me to do (and I agreed) during a meeting on one of my first days back. I remember this meeting but have no recollection of being asked to/agreeing to do this report. And now it needs to be done ASAP. I literally hung up the phone with her, burst into tears at my desk and then hid in the pumping room (only room without windows!) and sobbed.

    I don’t even know what kind of advice I am asking for here. What to do? How to fix this? How to survive this phase? Assume for now that me quitting my job is not an option (though it might be, and that opens up a WHOLE other can of worms I don’t even have the energy to get into). How do I structure our lives in such a way that I can a) survive the work day and b) have more quality time with my kids other than just rushing them through the nighttime routine? What have other people done that’s worked? Essentially, no one is getting the best of me right now–not my husband, not my kids, not my employer. HELP!

    1. Murphy*

      Oh my gosh. I am so sorry. I have only the one 13 month old at home, but I sympathize.

      Outside of work: For me honestly, weeknights are just a wash. I can’t get anything done and other than the absolutely essentials, and I don’t even try to anymore. Ask for help as much as you can from friends, local family, etc.

      At work: You may need some more organizational aids during this time. I have a dry erase board with a list of all the projects I’m working on and upcoming deadlines. I have a notebook with a more detailed to-do list that I take to every meeting, and look at often to make sure that I’m on track. Don’t trust your own memory, write everything down. You’re too stressed and too sleep deprived to keep track of it all.

      I think it’s OK, if you have a good relationship with your boss, to let her know that you’re struggling. She can’t help if you don’t let her know that there’s a problem.

      1. Let's Bagel*

        Thank you — this seems so simple, but maybe you’re right that I just need to accept that weeknights are basically going to suck! It’s just so hard when they’re so little and growing so fast and you just want time to slow down so you can get more of it with them. But maybe more time with them is just a component that working parents don’t get to have. :-/

        Thanks for the work suggestions, too. I am absolutely going to start documenting EVERYTHING. My brain cannot be trusted to remember much of anything right now.

        1. Natalie*

          For whatever its worth, I hear stay at home parents say it moves too fast, too. I think that might just be an unchangeable component of having kids?

    2. Sally-O*

      Assorted comments/suggestions:
      1) You are an amazing mama and you are doing GREAT. It will get better. You are so not alone in this.
      2) Practice saying “No” a lot at work. Try your best to offload – or never take on – all non-essential duties. Do not volunteer for ANYTHING. It’s okay to just do an average job at work for awhile.
      3) Sleep makes a HUGE difference. You will feel so much better when you are sleeping better. Remember that the end is in sight – at some point your baby will sleep through the night. You can start sleep training soon!
      4) Ask to telework at least 1 day a week, if not two. Cutting out the commute saves so much time!
      5) Once per week, sleep in a separate room with ear plugs and put your husband on nighttime duty. If you only skip one night of breastfeeding per week, it shouldn’t take a toll on your supply.
      6) I am the biggest proponent of breastfeeding in the world and I exclusively breastfed my own kiddo, but if formula makes your life easier, don’t feel guilty at all about moving in that direction. Millions of moms do!
      7) Splurge on nice coffee and tea at work.
      8) Could you temporarily take one day of unpaid leave every other week? Every other Friday, for the summer? You don’t get what you don’t ask for.
      9) Remember that kids are raised by a village, not just by their parents. Daycare is part of that village. To your kids, it’s completely normal to be there 10 hours a day.
      10) Listen to happy/energizing music! It always makes me feel better?
      11) You got this! <3

      1. Let's Bagel*

        Thank you, this is an amazing list and it’s incredible to hear encouragement from people you don’t even know! I guess we really are all dealing with the same things, even when it doesn’t feel like it.

        You’re so right about so many of these. I’m terrible at saying no, I’m never okay with just being average at work, etc. But right now I think I do need to just lower the bar and get the bare essentials completed, and be okay with that.

        I’m going to print this out and hang it at my desk, seriously!!

    3. Nita*

      This is all, unfortunately, normal for working moms. You’re not doing anything wrong. And it gets better. It may take a long time, though. The pumping hopefully won’t be much longer. The exhaustion and lack of sleep… could be a couple more months if you’re lucky, or much longer if you have a high-needs child. My almost three year old still drives me insane with how much of my time she needs – last night I flew out of her bedroom at 10:30 PM in tears, and she was still not happy that I hadn’t told her enough bedtime stories. Of course the morning drop-off at day care didn’t go so well either.

      So, yeah, it’s normal. Only, it sounds like you’re really at the end of your rope, and I get that you don’t want to ask for part time, but it may be better than a total breakdown or quitting because you can’t take it any more. If it’s financially doable, think about it a couple more weeks, and maybe go for it!

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah I think you *have* to ask for more help from work, even if you don’t want to – there’s just not a feasible option here, because you are literally hanging on by your fingernails right now. The next step is that something bad will happen and you’ll burn out / be fired or severely hurt your career. So I think you have to be aggressive about asking for what you need, because the alternatives are worse. Can you get some work from home? Is there part time option even if it costs you money? Could you push some things off your plate, have an assistant hired, whatever it takes?

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Sidenote: +1 that your partner has to also realize it’s mission critical time and start investigating these types of options at his job. The “good option” (you are able to juggle both things) has passed, now you’re looking at only less-desirable options.

      2. Let's Bagel*

        My almost three year old still drives me insane with how much of my time she needs – last night I flew out of her bedroom at 10:30 PM in tears, and she was still not happy that I hadn’t told her enough bedtime stories.

        ^^^ YES!!! I am so with you there. When did bedtime become about literally anything everything EXCEPT GOING TO BED??!! Why do children hate sleep??

    4. Another Person*

      I couldn’t begin to give you an answer that will solve all this, but I will gently suggest you make an appointment with your doctor and see if he/she can help you get documentation for medical leave to get some well deserved rest.

      1. Anonny*

        Yes. Please seriously consider taking a short term medical leave (or whatever you dr think is appropriate). Before kids I thought “no worries, I manage a high maintenance group, babies will be easy” . Wrong. Knocked me on my butt. I was so angry that I could not have regular sleep. It affected everything. Went part time, a world of difference. And good advice about having no expectations during the week. Do you have a friend to vent to?

        1. Anonny*

          I had problems with breast feeding/pumping for both, I eventually had to do to formula so my babies wouldn’t starve. I felt a lot of guilt but they turned out pretty dang healthy! And smart too :-) You might want to consider formula. Breastfeeding wiped me out.

        2. Let's Bagel*

          I appreciate the suggestion, but unfortunately any kind of leave at this point isn’t feasible, since I have already taken the maximum amount allotted. I do agree that breastfeeding and sleeplessness are major contributing factors here. I plan to stop breastfeeding in one month, and I’m hoping that will help things improve. As for the sleeplessness, that’s all up to my son…and the way you put it, “I was so angry to not have regular sleep,” –yes! It makes me SO ANGRY! So angry. Half my battle is not letting it make me irate.

    5. ToodieCat*

      Maybe your husband could also ask HIS boss about “lightening his load” so that he could also have more time to shoulder more. Even if you’re splitting things pretty evenly at home, you also have extra physical demands with recovery and nursing that he doesn’t.

      Irks me no end (and this isn’t my business) to think that the first adjustment needs to be on your end of things.

    6. blue canary*

      I don’t have a ton of advice but I have a ton of sympathy for you. What you’re going through is SO HARD. I know it doesn’t feel like it right now but you’re doing a great job under really difficult circumstances. Remember that this is temporary – your baby will start sleeping more, you’ll stop nursing/pumping, your brain will start working again. I know that doesn’t help you in the moment, but it will pass.

      I know you said you don’t feel right asking for a reduced work load, but if your boss is as great as you indicate she is, what do you have to lose by asking? Look at it this way, you can do ALL THE WORK but none of it as well as you’d like, or you can do some of the work really well. I imagine your boss would prefer the latter option.

      Try not to stress about the time with your kids – because it really is about quality, not quantity. So you have to rush through bedtime during the week – do you get to do fun things with your kids on the weekend? Your older kid is much more likely to remember that time you spent the afternoon at the park and then got ice cream rather than that she only got one story before bed. And your baby won’t remember any of this! Also, kids don’t need baths every day unless they are rolling around in the dirt. Cutting that out would free up some time to play a game or take a walk (or whatever you choose to do with it).

      Hang in there!

      1. Let's Bagel*

        Thank you for the advice and even just for the sympathy! Sometimes it just helps to hear someone else say, “I get it, it’s hard, it’ll be okay.”

        You had me laughing about the bath comment. This is an ongoing conversation I have with my other mom friends. Over the years as our kids have grown/other things have sapped our time, our collective opinions on baths has gone from “ideally every day” to “every other day is fine” to “2-3x a week is good, right?” to “did you play outside today?” I imagine pretty soon we’ll just stop giving our kids baths altogether in the winter, lol.

        1. Natalie*

          One of my friends once said that she could tell that someone was on their second kid by how they reacted to a pacifier falling on the ground. First kid – biohazard, take it home and sterilize it. Second kid – maybe blow the dirt off if you have time.

    7. Self employed*

      “My boss is amazing; she also has a young child and “gets it,” but I don’t feel like that’s a fair thing to ask of her. It’s not like they’re lightening my salary! Plus she’s already had to pick up my slack while I was out on leave; I don’t think it’s fair to ask for more at this point.”

      PLEASE talk to your boss. She can step in for you while you get your feet under you in terms of sleep. Take the long view— it’s just for a short while and as a result she will likely retain you longer as a result of her awesomeness. Let her help you manage the work load for a little while, and don’t feel guilty about it. Please!

    8. Rowl Silent Paws*

      Would it be possible to have a night nurse for the baby a few nights a week? It may be that everything else would seem less overwhelming if you got some sleep. There are services where you can hire someone to do this, or maybe if you have family nearby someone might be able to watch the baby one night a week and your husband could get up with the baby one or two nights a week. Sleep deprivation makes everything worse.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I heard there’s an overnight childcare option in DC called “let mommy sleep” (although I wish it was “let parent of unspecified gender sleep”).

    9. Shawna*

      I only have one kid (turning 3 in August), but I so, so, so relate to these feelings and think they are incredibly common! When I came back to work after my leave, it seemed completely insurmountable and unsustainable for our family to juggle two jobs and a small child. I had all the same concerns as you. A co-worker (with a slightly older child) invited me to lunch to talk about it. I resisted at first (I have no time for lunch?!!!!) but ultimately met up with her, and she was incredibly reassuring. It really did get better, but I vividly remember how impossible it seemed at first. I will say that the pumping and related mental energy was incredibly taxing,and once I was done that improved my quality of life significantly.

      Figuring out the small details of the routine helped too. Like really basic things – I got a backpack (instead of a work tote) which mad me more nimble at pickup/dropoff. I wore slide-on shoes which made it easier to get in and out of the shoe-free infant classroom. We got an automatic coffee maker to take one task out of the morning equation. We developed a bottle washing/prepping system that was efficient. Over time we got into a rhythm.

      It is still hard. I think 21st century life is still not fundamentally compatible with 2-career families, but we all muddle through somehow. It will get better. It will get better. It will get better. Hang in there.

      1. Let's Bagel*

        Thank you, this is all good advice. I can’t WAIT to be done with breastfeeding and pumping (one more month to go).

        >It is still hard. I think 21st century life is still not fundamentally compatible with 2-career families, but we all muddle through somehow.

        YES. But why?? Why are we all insisting on cramming >24 hours of activities/day into our expectations?

    10. OldJules*

      Give yourself 6 months to adjust to being at work and at home.

      1. Pumping breaks – make sure you have the hands free bra that allows you to work while pumping. Have your plan in place. Use ziplock and refrigerate the horns and bottles in between pumping. With a decent double pump, 20 minutes is all you need. I work on my pumping break. On hard days, full fledge working while I’m hooked up. On easy days, I am reviewing work/scheduling work/creating/going through a checklist.

      2. Nursing child – I am going to share something many will frown upon but we bedshare. That way my son nurses when he is hungry and yes, that meme floating on Facebook where nursing sleep with both girls hanging out? That’s me. He roots and nurses when he needs, I sleep through it and get a decent amount of sleep.

      3. Create a post work plan with the kids. Have a schedule so the kids can follow them without you having to nag, did you do homework? Did you shower? Did you have your backpack ready for tomorrow? Use pictures and a time beside it as what is expected, when it’s expected. Give your husband and yourself a break by trading baby duties at night so the other can spend time with the older kiddos.

      4. Don’t over schedule your older kids. If you have a young baby, FT work for both of you and have to send kids to multiple practices/games/etc, you will end up resenting it. Pick one thing they can do together. Mine is swim. I didn’t start them until my son was 2.5 years old though. While I feel guilty that I’m not providing them enrichments, I think my sanity is probably more important than their enrichment. Some days I have to start work again after all has gone to bed. Trust me, she would be happier playing with the neighbourhood kids than having a godzilla for a mom.

      5. Speak to your boss. It’s better to be honest and upfront with them in term of your struggles then for him to find out that you’ve been dropping balls. Don’t ask for special treatment, just let him know that you are still having some struggles with adjusting to work post-maternity and if he sees you slipping somewhere, to let you know so you can handle it. Do you have other team mates that can take up some of the work you do? Part of my struggle is taking on more than it’s sane. I finally spoke to my boss about it. My team mates are leaving 30-15 minutes before quitting time and here I am overstressed because I have so many projects in my plate because I need to ‘prove’ myself.

      Hang in there. It takes a while but eventually you’ll find your zen. If you need more resources and a laugh, read “Balance Is a Crock, Sleep Is for the Weak: An Indispensable Guide to Surviving Working Motherhood” by Amy Eschliman. I bought it years ago when I had my #1. It’s still relevant with my #2.

      PS: A lot of working mom could probably relate to your experience. We just all have a strong pressure to make it seem effortless.

    11. Ismis*

      Very late, but I’m a woman in my 40s with no children and I would have no problem with taking up some of the slack for you. I don’t do very well without a good night’s sleep myself, and most of us have times where we’re not completely on top of everything. The fact that you are so worried about your coworkers/boss shows that you are the type of coworker people are happy to help out – because you would do the same.

      Take care of yourself!

    12. Mrs Anon*

      This is super late, and I don’t have much in the way of how to fix it- but I would encourage you to check in other your physician as well. I had a similar thing when I want back to work after my first- I was working nights and not sleeping during the day and ended up with some pretty severe post partum depression. Sleep deprivation is one of the biggest triggers for it, so getting screened could help you stay on top of it before it manifests. I was also honest with my boss about my burnout level and was able to transition to a an amazing part time day shift (instead of full time night shifts) which made a huge difference. I also fully co-sign if you need/want to switch to formula or combo feed, you should have zero qualms or guilt about doing that if it helps your sanity.

      Hang in there, it does get better and you are a fantastic mom. This feels hard bc it IS hard-don’t fall for the instagram lie that every other mother is doing it better then you. That’s not true. You’ve got this.

  85. Anon for Reasons*

    I’ve read all of Alison’s advice about asking for a raise and being authoritative at work and I’ve tried to connect with it but I still struggle to find the courage to speak up and assert myself/ be sure of my own worth as a young female in an industry populated by rich, vaguely (or sometimes very) misogynistic middle aged men. The company (and industry in general) I work for still has very “Men are Project Managers, Women are Secretaries, Men Make Money, Women Make Tea” vibe to it.

    I’m wondering if anyone has any advice for women to speak out/ stand up for themselves in environments where the gender gap is still more prevalent than it should be in 2018.

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Sounds like my company/industry. While I don’t have any advice, per se, I just charged ahead. When I started the support staff (aka women) were never involved with the other office activities. The only thing we had was a “Gir’s Lunch” – that was what it was actually called. I started asking why I wasn’t included on XYZ. Or asking my coworkers why I didn’t count as the coworker who stayed latest. Bascially, I refused to be pigeonholed.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I got better at this over time, so give yourself a break if you are still very young (under 30). As I got older I gained confidence in my skills and experience, and didn’t find it so scary to speak up and assert myself – but I was very shy and girlish when just starting out, because I *did* feel inexperienced and TBH I probably was. Just build skills and keep looking for chances to make moves in the first five years in your career, I’d say – the best revenge is to be such a rockstar that they can’t hold you back because you’ll have lots of options. I do often hear “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office” recommended, at least as food for thought, although I didn’t find a ton of specifically actionable stuff I gained from it.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I should have added that nobody at any stage of their career should be forced to put up with an unsafe or demeaning environment. If you are being harassed definitely speak up about it to whoever senior will listen to you.

    3. Elena*

      I think the key for you is to understand who are your allies and who I actually prejudiced against you. Not all your coworkers are Professor Priapus. Those people – male or female – will be key in protecting you from pitfalls, making room in conversations, and promoting your advancement.

      To do this, you can’t be resentful or view every interaction as a slight agaisnt your gender; some portion of negarive feedback will be basrd on your relative lack of experience.

      Also, assertiveness comes with practice. You can resent men forever because they seem to lack the decency to caveat and self-efface. But it’s not a great habit, and dropping it gets easier over time.

    4. Nita*

      I guess one thing is, if you’re asked to do something like make tea, don’t do it and don’t find an excuse to get around it – tell the person to their face that this is not your job, and your job is xyz. It all sounds very exhausting though. I also find it kind of helps to pretend I don’t notice any surprised looks I get while doing something that’s typically “for men” and act very matter-of-fact about being able to ace it. Although… funny, in the last ten years the surprised looks are much fewer and farther between. Hope things are (slowly) changing in your industry, too.

  86. Audiophile*

    Quick rant – I despise job applications that make you sign in and but don’t allow you to change your application materials before automatically submitting your application. Thus, you end up submitting whatever version of your resume is in their system, in some cases from several years back.

    I’m sure updating your profile doesn’t help since it’s already been submitted.

    1. irene adler*

      Me too. Encountered this yesterday.
      I’m pondering creating a whole new application -with new email address- so I can give them the updated resume.

      1. Audiophile*

        I usually only do that as a last resort, like in the case of the ATS system for a certain women’s clothing company. I cannot reset my password to save my life, as it will not let you resuse any variation of a password you’ve already used.

        Frustrating to say the least.

        Otherwise, I am usually able to remove a previous resume or upload one and force it to delete the previous version.

    2. KX*

      Five years ago I applied somewhere; last month I applied again and couldn’t upload a new resume. I sent an email to their HR department with the job number and told them what was going on. I asked them to remove files A, B, C so I could upload my new resume and apply for the position.

      They responded favorably, right away. I didn’t send them my resume on the first contact, so that maybe helped.

  87. Robyn*

    I’m in the hiring process for a new job, and am having some heartburn about it. Long story short, my current role is a 45 minute commute from my home and I’m a department of one with a good mix of direct services to clients and higher level policy and procedure decisionmaking. I’ve now applied to work at a place that is within walking distance of my house, doing only the direct services part.

    Last year about this time, I applied for the manager position at this agency close to my home, and made it to the final round of interviews, but was not offered the position. They posted twice more before filling the manager position. I knew it was a stretch position considering I don’t have much experience supervising staff, and I don’t disagree with their decision not to hire me for that role.

    I’ve now had one interview and am scheduled for a second for this direct service role. The first interview was with the new man nger and the office manager, who had interviewed me last year and we discussed that a bit in the first interview as it relates to my candidacy. The second interview is a week from Monday and is with those two and the head of the agency, who I also met in the last round. This new position is a pay cut and a fewer responsibilities, but I’m primarily interested for quality of life issues (short commute, as I mentioned). Should I proactively address the prior interview process and talk about why, after applying for this stretch position, I now want a position that pays less and has less responsibility?

    Complicating matters a bit, it’s a union position after 6 months probation (meaning you can be fired without cause during that time) and my husband and I are actively trying to get pregnant, so that’s playing into my worries as well.

    1. Anna Canuck*

      First: no, it’s not complicated to try to get pregnant after you pass probation. That’s a normal way to live your life, and you don’t need to feel bad about it. If you were pregnant NOW, that would be more complicated.

      Second: Yes, I think I’d lay those cards down on the table. You want this job because it will improve your life in several ways, despite the pay cut.

      1. Robyn*

        Thank you! I’m in the weird time of the month right now where I could be pregnant but it’s too early to test, but I should know more by the time I would have to decide to accept an offer, should I get one. It’s just hard to get the wheels in my brain to stop spinning about it all.

  88. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

    My presentation last Saturday was a success! I got questions at the end of the talk (and a few in the middle) that left me with ideas on how to make the talk even better next time, and then more people came up to me to talk more on the subject after the talk was over! Plus, the room was packed! Like, standing room only packed, and it was one of the larger rooms available!

    It helped that before the talks began in the morning I connected with another woman who was giving her first conference presentation, so we ended up forming a mutual support society for the day and attending each other’s talks. (We were scheduled at different times, so this was easy to do.) All told, a very successful day!

    I still need to put a link to my slides up on my very dusty twitter account, but I’ve at least got them up and posted for anyone who looks at my github account. (I’m waiting for my brother to verify that the link I’ve got to the slides works before I share it out generally.)

  89. Anonymosity*

    Me–Blargh! here. Last weekend, I posted semi-anonymously with my gravatar attached and some weirdness happened on another platform, so I’m going dark. Unless I have any major announcements, I’ll stay under this username with no picture, so if you know it’s me, please do not mention my name.

    Nothing to report, just a vent. Several jobs I applied to and either didn’t hear from or was rejected from have been posted again. I see no point in applying again; they have my information and if they were interested, they would have called me the first time. Most of them are jobs I was dubious about applying to in the first place, so whatevs. There are plenty of non-admin jobs I could probably do, but none of them are here. I’m beginning to think there is no way out.

    Vent over. Thanks for listening. I have a hair appointment today, which I can’t really afford, but I need to not have sloppy roots when interviewing so I’m just going to enjoy the pampering. I hope the rest of your Friday is good. :)

    1. anon24*

      I’m sorry you haven’t gotten an interview. I hope something good comes your way soon

  90. Sally-O*

    I need some help on dealing with a dominating conversation style at work. I have a coworker who somehow manages to make people feel stupid no matter what they say/suggest. He does it to lots of people, not just me, but here are some examples:

    Me: “I think we should do this.”
    Coworker: “Well, yeah, of course, we need to do this because of XYZ.” (Acting as though it was his idea and he’s the one who was suggesting it all along.)

    Me: “This seems like a challenge.”
    Coworker: “It’s the easiest thing in the world. Just do XYZ.” (Dismissive of other people’s concerns and difficulties.)

    Me: “How would you suggest I set the agenda?”
    Coworker: “You need to do X, and then you need to do Y.” (Telling others what to do instead of providing suggestions.)

    It’s absolutely exhausting talking to this person. Is there anything I should say when I’m at my breaking point?

    1. fposte*

      If it’s a co-worker, I think your best weapon is not caring. Fergus is gonna Fergus. This is such an ingrained style and attitude thing that it’s tough to effect a change in it even in a subordinate or a loved one, let alone a random sharer of your office space.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Although if this happens in public conversations, I’d try to call him out as subtly as I could so that Fergus doesn’t get credited with my idea in the bosses’ mind. “I know, Fergus, that’s why I just said that.” Ask another employee to back you up in these meetings, by saying, “I really like Sally-O’s idea of X” after Fergus tries to insert himself. You can return the favor to this coworker later.

    2. BuffaLove*

      Ugh, I have a coworker like this. He’s also perfected the “how are you possibly this dumb?” look. Try not to let it get to you – he’s being annoying at the situation, not at you personally, and he’d be just as annoying if he was talking to someone else. If there are opportunities to lightly push back here and there, I’d probably do it, but don’t expect him to change.

    3. NPO Anon*

      Ah, I see you’ve met my board! There are a couple of things I’ve found helpful, but it depends on your style, your relationships, and your read on the other person’s motivations.

      If you think he is unaware that this is the way he is coming off, it’s a good conversation to have directly, making sure to articulate why it’s an issue. “This makes people less willing to share their perspective, and it’s harming others’ professional perception of you.” This is harder to do when the person is a superior, though. You can talk to your manager about it to hopefully coordinate the feedback coming from a higher level, but it may not be as big a deal to them as it is to you, unfortunately.

      It has helped me to remember that someone this rude probably doesn’t have a good read on my competence so I shouldn’t let them dictate much about how I feel about myself. It’s also kind of a good feeling when someone is clearly trying to get under your skin and just…can’t. I kind of turn it into a game of how well I can avoid accepting the premise of their comment. One important thing that I’ve learned is that the other person doesn’t get to dictate the grounds of the discussion. For example, when Coworker replies, “Just do XYZ,” it’s easy to accidentally concede that the discussion is about whether or not it’s easy to do XYZ. The point is actually that he is not solving the problem, and you can say so.

      And finally, I would be really strategic about how you engage with this person. Don’t ask him open-ended questions unless you absolutely have to. Ask “How much time should I allocate to this item?” rather than “How should I approach the agenda?” Don’t seek out his opinion unless you absolutely have to. Don’t involve him in your projects except where genuinely necessary (i.e. where his contributions outweigh the time you have to waste squeezing his value out of him).

  91. gretchen*

    This is probably super basic advice, but I’m really nervous about putting in notice. I know I’m leaving this office for the right reasons, but I worry about emotions running high, especially as my department has a history of super high turnover–usually we have 50-70% of the department leave within a year. I know true professionals won’t take it personally, but my office is… not that (guess how many times I’ve heard “we’re a family” since starting?) Any advice for working up the courage to quit, dealing with emotions, etc?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I remind myself that I’m giving them two weeks and then I work hard in that time to make everything as smooth as I can, and that’s how I vent my guilt. This is the best outcome to them – I could have quit on the spot (or something could have happened to me, or they could have fired me) and they would have had zero transition, but I’m super nice and considerate and making it easy. YMMV but this assuages my guilt. Everything ends eventually.

  92. Polaris*

    My department has banned headphones for all employees, regardless of whether we deal with clients or not (I do not). I sent a question to Allison about how to talk to my boss about this, but I also have a related issue.

    The hallway where our cubicles are situated is shared with several higher level employees (think attorneys or professors vs assistants), and they are VERY loud. Much shouting and loud conversations, calls on speakerphone with the door left open, etc. Considering how much they outrank me, would it be risking my job or goodwill with the company to ask them to quiet down when they get loud? It happens every day, and my stress levels are going through the roof. I have anxiety, and used to listen to instrumental music to dampen the noise and work unimpeded, but I can’t do that anymore.

    1. Nita*

      Do you have HR? Could you ask someone there to talk to them, or do an all-staff email about keeping doors closed if you’re loud? If it’s coming from HR and not directly from you, it may go over better. They won’t even know if the complaint came from an admin, or from an office next door.

      I don’t suppose moving is an option… it often isn’t because many offices don’t have a lot of space just sitting empty in case someone wants to move.

    2. A Nickname for AAM*

      They banned headphones but did they ban earplugs? Earplugs aren’t headphones…

  93. kaybsie*

    Has anyone here ever had to manage a best friend? I’m unexpectedly up for a promotion that would involve managing one of my closest friends, whom I met at work and hang out with very often. It’s a casual and friendly work environment overall, but we have revenue-generating roles and the eyes of the organization are often on us. Do you think I’d have to back away from our close friendship if I were to get this promotion? I could see myself struggling to maintain a balance between in-office professionalism and external friendship given this particular friend’s personality, and I also don’t want anyone to think my closeness with her would affect my ability to manage the team fairly.

    1. fposte*

      I almost was in a situation like that, and I’m glad it didn’t happen (it would have been the other way around with a best friend managing me). I think it’s worth trying to avoid it. If she’s not your only report, it’s not fair to the others, and even if she is your only report, your being able to fire her is going to be a weird dynamic in the relationship.

    2. CatCat*

      Yes, I think would need to back away from the friendship for both your sakes. For you to actually be an effective manager and be seen to be an effective manager without the friendship muddying the waters. And for your friend to not have the expectations from you that they would have of a friendship. You can be friendly, but being friends is a dicey proposition and a set up for hurt feelings.

    3. Tara S.*

      There are very few situations where you get to stay close with people you manage! Sorry, you would probably have to step back. It will take a toll on you otherwise. My friend recommended a friend of hers to be hired at her company, and then through a reshuffle ended up managing her, and it was a nightmare. My friend left and is now so happy they can resume just being friends.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You cannot be close friends with someone you manage.

      Is there an option for her to be transferred to another team if you’re given the promotion?

      1. kaybsie*

        I was afraid I’d receive these sorts of replies, but I’m not surprised by them. Thanks for your candor – it’s at least reassuring to know that my instincts were right.

        There actually is a chance that she may not be long for this team as the results are inspiring to her, but the day to day work is quite contrary to her personality. We’ll see how things shake out as there are definitely a lot of things up in the air at this stage. Thanks again!

    5. RedCoat*

      I’ve been managed by a really close friend! It actually worked really well- I already kinda saw her in a big sister/mentor type way, so I was open to feedback and she knew how to tell when I was hitting burnout. (Call center with LOTS of staffing issues, where I was doing literally 250% of the expected work load). We had some unspoken ground rules:
      1. We didn’t talk about work outside of work.
      2. We both made work filters on our social media accounts. She didn’t need to see me whine about a coworker being out “sick” and extending a 3 day weekend, I didn’t need to see her complaining about whatever big wig stuff I wasn’t supposed to know.
      3. We kept it pretty surface level at work- office appropriate levels of detail/talking. More was for outside.

      She ended up being a great advocate for me and with her advice I became more fluent in corporate. We both ended up moving (me to a different department, her to a different state) at about the same time, so I can’t say what the 3-year-out would look like, but I say that if you and your friend have good boundaries/ability to compartmentalize, it doesn’t have to be a deal breaker for your friendship or your work situation.

      1. kaybsie*

        Excellent tips, thank you! I’m not super confident in her ability to compartmentalize as effectively as I probably would, but it’s good to hear about a success story. I hope you guys are still friends!

        1. RedCoat*

          We are! I still go to her for advice about sensitive work topics. I’m the first and only person in my family to have worked a white collar job, so she’s a great sounding board.

        2. ..Kat..*

          It can help to name the problem. Talk with friend about common problems managing a friend, potential solutions, how much you value her friendship, what does she think would work?

    6. You don't know me*

      “There are no friends in business” is something an old manager of mine used to say all the time. He was wrong. You can be friends but you are definitely going to need to have boundaries and maybe dial it back a bit. You won’t be able to confide in her about a lot of workplace stuff but it will be good that you can vent a bit to someone who is familiar with your struggles.

  94. Candid Candidate*

    I work on a small web team for a big corporate company. I recently got a job offer at another company and will be leaving my current position at the beginning of July. One major reason I’m leaving is because of an extremely incompetent social media manager whom I’ve had to work closely with, whom I’ll call Mark. He has failed to do anything beyond the most basic tasks for several months which has created an unreasonable workload for the rest of the team, and I know that Mark’s on probation for this. He recently tried to pass off an old powerpoint as his final presentation for an upcoming corporate convention on an unrelated topic, and as a result, my boss had to create the correct presentation with my help. Mark still gets to present this as his own work.

    Well, I just found out that Mark is planning to hand in his notice on the day that I leave, so that he can be an independent social media marketing vendor to the franchises at our company. He thinks he can get a “slice of the pie” and earn more money that way, and my coworker “Sally” told me that he’s been coming to her during the workday and showing her his business model, his logo, etc. Sally has sworn me to secrecy, but I’m still tempted to mention this to my boss so that he has time to look for someone to fill Mark’s position. He’s using company time to develop his business, and he’s leaving at a time when the team will already be overwhelmed because of my absence.
    I know I should mind my own business, but I hate that after seeing the way he’s burdened the rest of the team, he’s now sabotaging it even further and bragging about it to other coworkers.

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      Unfortunately, I don’t think you can ethically say anything. People are allowed to leave their jobs. It wouldn’t be right to tell their boss before they give their notice, even if you hadn’t already promised not to tell anyone.

      As for Mark always slacking off, this is a management problem. It was management’s responsibility to make sure that this didn’t happen, and they didn’t do it. Try to leave here on a good note. None of this is your problem anymore.

      1. Candid Candidate*

        You’re right, I know you’re right. *shakes fist at my shared wall with Mark’s office*

  95. Mara Jade*

    This is probably a dumb question, but when a job posting just asks for “experience” and not (for instance) “related experience” does that mean they just want someone who’s held a job before?

    Context: I’m jobsearching in my field for the first time after holding a retail job to pay the bills. Something that specifies “2 years relevant experience” or “1 year of experience with x” is clearly not for me, but I’m wondering about job postings that don’t specify. When it only says “2 years experience,” do they just think it goes without saying that they mean relevant experience, or do I have a shot with my 5+ years of retail work?

    1. Tara S.*

      “Experience” and “relevant experience” are used pretty interchangeably. However, don’t let that stop you from applying! If they ask for 3+ years experience in X, they do want some baseline knowledge going in, but 1-2 years usually means “we would love for you already had experience in this, but we also recognize it’s an entry level position.” Unless it is something hyper-specific, it doesn’t hurt apply for these jobs, just look at the archives here for how to talk about how your retail experience would translate.

      I can’t remember where I heard this, but someone said “if you fit every single point in the job description, they couldn’t afford you.” So go for it!

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I don’t think you can draw any conclusions one way or another; I doubt they’re being intentional about whether they say “relevant experience” or just “experience.”

      That being said, don’t let it prevent you from applying. Make the case as to why you’d be a strong hire in the cover letter.

  96. Pearl*

    I just wanted to thank Alison and everyone here. The adults in my family did not have office jobs so I did not know a lot about professional norms before I began working. I have worked at the same place for 4 years and it along with this site have taught me most of what I know. I needed a new job and was not at all confident, but took everything I had learned here to psych myself up for the search.

    I learned today that my application was accepted for a job in the field I went to school for and once I pass a background check I will be able to give notice at my current position. I also got started at the top of the salary range for my new position because I made a good impression at the interview and sold my non-industry experience. It means no raises unless I get promoted (union job) but also that my income will only be hit by a little bit instead of a lot like I was expecting.

    Thanks all! Now I just have to read about how to give notice when you are nervous :)

  97. Nant*

    I seem to be having the opposite problem to most job-seeking candidates – companies I’m applying for are actually sending me rejection letters! Except they’re sending them to me within hours of me applying. My quickest rejection was within three hours. :’)

    Still no interviews, but onwards and upwards, I guess!

    1. Audiophile*

      I’ve been there, it’s very frustrating.

      It seemed in many cases that it was due to key words or questions in the application system, that if you didn’t answer the specific way they were looking for you were rejected.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        Or jobs that are only posted externally for show and already have an internal candidate identified.

      2. Nant*

        Probably! They asked for a CV, so I’m guessing it’s keywords not being picked up by an automated filter. Hurray for our robotic CV-eating overlords! :’)

    2. beanie beans*

      I’ve been there! It sucks when you get a rejection notice in less time than it took you to prepare and submit the resume and cover letter!

    3. smoke tree*

      It’s frustrating to be on the receiving end of this, but I wouldn’t read too much into the quick turnaround time. It’s probably just a function of how they typically process applications. At least it’s better to know!

      1. Hellanon*

        Yes, I posted a job yesterday morning to Indeed. So far 76 people have applied. I’m looking for fairly specific experience, so it’s a quick task to skim-read the resumes and hit the “reject” button Indeed provides if their experience is too far outside my parameters. So far I’ve found 3 people who could be a good fit, about a dozen who could probably make it work, and 50 or so that I’ve had to reject. (Indeed tells me they’ll send an automated email in about 3 days.)

        I have to say, sending the rejection emails immediately is the easiest way to do this process – and I’m surprised I’ve gotten as many responses as I have. I can’t imagine going through 200 or more resumes by hand, not and get the rest of my day accomplished…

  98. writelhd*

    I get these soliciting emails that are really annoying, where somebody pretends to be a contact asking a personal question and couches it in professional vague politeness…but it’s just a sales pitch. They’re trying to hide that it is, and then follow up with increasingly passive aggressive emails. Here’s some good ones from this week:

    “I’m just following back up with you to see if you’ve pinned anything down regarding new equipment/vehicle acquisition.”

    “Did you get a chance to review my previous email? If so, kindly let me know your target folks to take this initiative further.”

    “Sorry, one more time. My last two emails missed you. I was hoping you’d let me know who to speak to about your online store? We have an e-commerce platform we thought you’d be interested in….blah blah ” With the two previous emails pasted below that one as a reference. ( Those starting with “It looks like my last email missed you! I am looking for the person in charge of your online store…” and “Hi, would you mind letting me know who is in charge of your online store?”, respectively. )

    Is this actually a successful strategy for people? I notice in myself there’s this niggling part of me that gets ticked by the passive aggressiveness, but it’s not going to make me actually talk to them about auto purchasing or lighting improvements or SEO.

    What are some good passive-aggressive email texts you’ve gotten like this?

    1. Nant*

      I just get the really annoying spam callers who say they’ve “just heard about the car accident”… when I don’t drive, can’t drive and hate cars. :’)

      I’ve read that most soliciting emails like that aren’t looking to make a business relationship – rather, they’re looking for folk who are not only vulnerable/desperate enough to fall for the specific email, but can be easily strung along to pay for whatever (usually overpriced) thing they’re selling. If you don’t fall for the initial hook, you probably aren’t going to fall for anything else they pull, and therefore you’re of no use to them because you’d just be wasting their manpower when they could be working on someone who’s a little more vulnerable.

    2. GarlicMicrowaver*

      “How’s Friday at 2pm?”

      “How was your weekend?”

      “We’re so sorry”

      Ugh. Ignore.

    3. Brunch with Sylvia*

      “Sorry you weren’t interested in our (medical) product. I hope and pray that your patients don’t die because of your decision. They deserve better. Happy Halloween!”
      My chief had this rep and his regional mgr come in for a face-to-face ass whooping for that email.

  99. Grande Latte*

    TLDR: How do you give notice when you just received a promotion at your current job within the same week of accepting a new job offer?

    I am expecting a job offer in the next few days if everything goes well. I am really excited about the job but the timing is super inconvenient because my current boss IMed me the other day to tell me he has good news to share about the promotion he had put in for me. (I posted about this last week in the open thread – it’s been in the works for over a year and until like yesterday there was no clear date of when it was going to happen. I got sick of waiting for it to happen, and I am just ready for a change in general so I started job searching)

    So it sounds like there’s a good chance that my boss officially gives me a promotion and then a few days later I would have to turn around and hand him my notice! How do I do that?? Meaning, what should that conversation sound like? He is an easy going guy but I’m sure he will feel pretty sour, especially since I am in the middle of leading a bunch of critical projects and our team is already down another person. This is really going to suck for him and the other people on my team, so I want to be sensitive to that while not letting it hold me back.

    Of course this could all be moot if my boss is slower in getting back to me about the promotion or if I don’t end up with the job offer — but with my luck it will happen in the most inconvenient order!

    1. CatCat*

      I think it’s okay to acknowledge the promotion and that the timing is not ideal.

      “Boss, I appreciate you going to bat for me on the promotion. Since there was no clear timeline for the promotion, I had put feelers out for other opportunities. A great opportunity fell into my lap that I can’t pass up so I am putting in my two weeks notice. I know the timing is a challenge because of X, Y, Z projects and I want to ensure I leave those projects in as good a shape as possible. I have some ideas on smoothing the transition that I am ready to discuss when you are also ready.”

      And just have some thoughts prepared ahead of time on the transition.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      This is awkward, but if it had been “in the works” for more than a year(!!!) then I don’t know what they expected. I like CatCat’s wording. Definitely don’t feel guilty about it! If they wanted to keep you, they should have acted to keep you.

    3. OldJules*

      Would you consider what the promotion has to offer? What if it’s better then the current job you’ve accepted? I work in an organization where promotions are very hard to come by and mostly because how the budgets are structured (I wish more people understood it so they don’t take things personally). But you can just listen to the promotions and thank him for it and not say anything. I’m assuming that you are waiting for the screening to pass before you tender your resignation? Once you are set, then meet with you boss to let him know that you are resigning, why you choose it and that it’s not about the money (if it’s true). Offer to transition things to someone so that the projects can keep on going with minimal disruption. Don’t feel bad about leaving. If they didn’t need you, they’d lay you off tomorrow and it’s a business decision. This is a business decision too, for you.

    4. Life Decisions*

      Just wanted to say that this is a thing that happens! One off my colleagues just left after finally being “officially” promoted (her job title and salary were adjusted to match the job she’d been doing for several years), and it just so happened that right afterward she got another job offer and turned in her notice. The promotion also involved a change in reporting which meant she would then be reporting to a newer manager who is a bully, so I’m sure that didn’t help. Anyway, people understood. If you feel weird, try to keep reminding yourself that there’s no way around it and it’s just unfortunate timing, and barrel through the awkward.

  100. Jemima Bond*

    I have an interview on Tuesday! For the first time in about six years I think, and that one wasn’t successful. Before that, it was in 2000. In my defence, this is not because I am a rubbish candidate/employee – there are complicated reasons to do with restructuring and being appointed off sift without interview. That said I’ve held the positions I’ve had each for a good long stretch!
    So as well as reading this excellent blog, I would welcome any advice especially if competency-based applications are anyone speciality! This is really all I’ll get interviewed on – no tell me about yourself or why you’ll be good at this etc. It’s an internal campaign for promotion and it’s not to a very specific role – so I’d be becoming a Senior Ninja Assassin (as opposed to a Ninja Assassin) but I won’t know until any offer I may get whether I’d be working on the Rare Poisons team or the Crossbows team or the Samurai Sword team etc. As an accredited assassin I won’t end up in the black cloaks issue department or anything like that. Fwiw the competencies are things like this:

    · Good understanding of the use of assassination and body disposal by ninja assassin guilds;

    · Experience of managing, leading or developing others in support of business objectives.

    It’ll be a panel interview probably about 45 minutes long and there are seven competencies total.

    Grateful for any help and advice!

    1. Jemima Bond*

      Ooh forgot to say – if I get promoted it will be my first management role; my current grade has no management responsibilities.

    2. OldJules*

      Find current examples of how you performed at the Senior Ninja Assassin level, right now in the current job you are in, in the specific competency they are looking at.

      1. Jemima Bond*

        Thanks, that’s useful to bear in mind. Five competencies were on the application form and I passed the sift so they must be ok, but two more nebulous ones are new. Thinking of answers from a grade-above pov makes good sense!

  101. Lynne879*

    I’d like your guys’ thoughts on a job I had interviewed with recently & whether or not I should accept if I’m offered the job. It’s a full-time, entry level office job wheras I’ve currently been working 2 part time jobs.

    Positives:
    + My commute time would be cut in half compared to what I’ve been doing now. Instead of an hour commute I’ve been doing with one of my part-time jobs, the drive is 15-20 minutes depending on traffic
    + Salary could potentially be 5k more than what I was originally looking for
    + Learning new skills that can transfer to other jobs in the future
    + Big, grand company parties that are given as a reward for the employees’ hard work
    +Casual dress code (I don’t have to buy new clothes!)
    +Paid weekly instead of bi-weekly

    Negatives:
    + NO benefits, outside of the 5 days sick time required by state law. There is NO paid vacation & NO 401ks. Even the health insurance that even the interviewer admitted was not the best
    + I currently have Kaiser Permanente for my health insurance & I can only use their doctors. This company does not offer KP. The group therapy I go to has been extremely helpful with my mental health & my therapist has been helpful as well. I’d rather not leave them. If I’m really serious about keeping my current health insurance, I might have to pay for it out of pocket
    + During the interview, the manager said that the office is so small & tight-knit, that they’re all like a big happy family, which is one of Alison’s red flags for a bad job
    +Manager mentioned that the owner takes a while to warm up to people & joked that he still has trouble remembering the other admin assistants’ names (But I also don’t think I’ll be interacting with him much)
    +No HR because the company is so small (about 20+ employees)

    I know it’s ultimately my decision, but what are your thoughts about this job? On one hand, I already don’t have paid time off & I don’t have a 401k, so I’m not really losing anything. But I’m also side-eyeing being given all these company parties when that money could be given for paid time off & paid sick leave instead. I’m also wondering if being paid more money will at least make up for it? My current goal will be to move out of my parents’ house & live on my own, but I also don’t want this to be another situation where I’m just sticking a mediocre/bad work environment out for another 1-2 years so it’ll look good on my resume.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I wouldn’t do it. No PTO, no retirement, and crappy health care? It sounds like you aren’t desperate — you’re working and you have a place to live — so I’d hold out for something that meets those minimal requirements for a decent job.

      Or — take it and plan to stay just long enough to gain the relevant skills/experience. I’m a stickler for not leaving jobs in the lurch by taking them with an eye to leaving, but if they’re screwing their employees like this they can’t have any expectations that folks will stay on board.

      1. Lynne879*

        That’s sort of what I was thinking originally– have the job long enough to learn skills that can be applied to other jobs (cause right now I don’t have a ton) & find something that can pay even more. But I’m also tired of having jobs where I only intend to stay there for a brief time to put something impressive on my resume & finding something else.

    2. CatCat*

      The lack of benefits and crappy insurance really blows, but the opportunity to learn new things that you could parlay into something better in the future and the dramatic cut your commute are good things.

      For your group therapy, do you have to have a Kaiser plan to attend, or can you pay out of pocket for those therapy sessions? If so, how much would that be? If you have to have a Kaiser plan to attend, how much would that be? Would the $5k more of salary cover those things?

      I think that would be the deciding factor for me if this looked like the best opportunity I was going to get for a while. Do you have any other irons in the fire for prospective employment that are better?

    3. irene adler*

      I’m gonna concur with the other posters on this.
      Just wanted to comment: is the $5K salary increase over current position actually an increase if you factor in having to pay for your entire healthcare (i.e. Kaiser)?

    4. SoCalHR*

      Saying no Kaiser = crappy healthcare isn’t necessarily true (in some circles that would be assumed to be GOOD healthcare as Kaiser’s reputation is mixed). The issue is that they just don’t offer then plan she would like, we can’t assume its otherwise crappy.

      All that being said. $5000 / 12 = $416.67, so if you decide to pay for Kaiser out of pocket, if its less than this per month, then that would still be a financially beneficial move. But only you can make the decision of how much keeping your current therapy is worth to you. There’a also tax implications to this, which I’m not super well versed in, but if the company takes the deduction it comes out pre-tax, but if you do it, then you may be able to claim it on your deductions (although the new tax laws may make that distinction moot).

      In my experience a smaller commute is a legit advantage.

      If you don’t currently have PTO or 401k, then that’s a wash unless you really want to hold out for a position with those benefits.

      Just my thoughts :-)

      1. Lynne879*

        Even if I went with whatever health insurance this company offers, I can only assume the extra $5k I’d get would all go to paying the monthly payments & co-pays. Either way I think it’s a lose-lose situation. Also, as much as I’d love to wait for a position that has all the benefits I want, I just don’t think that’s possible for me since I have few skill sets.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          I think a key point is what your other options are likely to be. How long have you been applying for full time work, how many interviews are you getting? If you’ve been coming close to better job offers, then it’s probably worth waiting for a better one. But if you’ve been searching for a year, without getting close to a job, then you may well be better off putting two years into this job than two years of juggling part-time work.

          1. Lynne879*

            I finally put my foot down & began to seriously job search for about a month. So far I’ve recently applied for at least 1o jobs (Some of these I applied to as recently as a few days ago). So far I had one phone interview where I got ghosted & two in-person interviews, including this one. I did end up getting a job offer from the other job I interviewed for, but I wasn’t really feeling the job so I turned it down.

    5. OldJules*

      I am wary of small orgs that doesn’t have to follow the employment rules. That excludes you from FMLA if you ever need it. If this fit your long term plan, go for it. But I’ve not had the best experience with privately owned companies.

    6. WellRed*

      I automatically side-eye companies that don’t give benefits. Even at the tiniest companies (5 employees or less) I’ve worked I got some paid sick and vacation time.

  102. D.W.*

    My manager recently asked me if I was still engaged in my work, to which I responded, “no”.

    Previously, we’d had several conversations where I asked for more challenging work and I outlined what I would like to be included on. There was also an open position for the work I wanted to do, and I was working on a proposal to take on some of that work because they hadn’t filled the position in almost one year. The reason I didn’t apply for it directly is because they added on responsibilities that I absolutely do not want to do.

    Following this conversation, I was asked again if I was happy because she wanted to “make sure I wasn’t going to leave”.

    We have been experiencing a very high turn-over season. And I also just found out that they hired for the position aforementioned, but that the role has greatly expanded to be more of what I didn’t like about it, leaving less time for them to do the work I’ve been saying that I want to do.

    What negotiating power, if any, do I have in this situation? I’ve never been in this situation before and am not sure how to proceed.

    1. CatCat*

      “Previously, we’d had several conversations where I asked for more challenging work and I outlined what I would like to be included on.”

      I’m not clear on the outcome here. Have the things you asked for materialized?

      If not, ask, “Boss, you’ve asked several times if I am happy here. We’ve had conversations about how I am interested in taking on X, Y, and Z type of work. Is that a realistic possibility, and if so, what sort of timeline would we be looking on for me to take on X, Y, and Z?”

      It’s pretty clear that you could leave over this.* You don’t need to say it.

      * There could potentially be some denial here though. Not your problem though. I straight up told a former boss that I was looking for another job because of ABC reason and we had talked about structuring things to resolve ABC but she was still shocked when I put in my notice months later. I cited ABC and she actually asked me, “What if we fixed ABC?” Um, yeah, that would have worked months ago had you fixed it WHEN I TOLD YOU I WAS LOOKING FOR ANOTHER JOB.

      1. D.W.*

        Sorry, no, the things I have asked for have not happened.

        And now that they have hired someone in the position, I was told that it wouldn’t be fair to give me responsibilities the incumbent expects to be leading.

        Our review period is next month, so I’m hoping to have a clear ask and get a clear, firm response from them on what can and cannot happen.

        1. CatCat*

          “I was told that it wouldn’t be fair to give me responsibilities the incumbent expects to be leading.”

          Oh, this has a familiar ring to me. Harkening back to the example I gave, one of the things that would have gone a long way toward resolving my ABC issue was for me to get more work doing, say, in-house llama grooming rather than mobile alpaca shaving. I think I was the only one on the team that actually liked doing llama grooming. Others would grumble about having to do it as it was quite different from alpaca shaving, had tighter timelines, and people saw themselves as alpaca shavers, not llama groomers. Nonetheless, I was told it would “not be fair to the team” if I did in-house stuff while they had to be mobile. Fast-forward to me putting in my notice, “What if we had you be the specialist in in-house llama grooming and gave you more of that work and less mobile alpaca shaving?” FACE. PALM.

          I think it’s a good idea to have a clear ask and seek a clear response, but it also couldn’t hurt to get the resume spiffed up and start looking casually until then.

  103. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    Has anyone ever been through a performance review process (either as the reviewer or the reviewee) that was genuinely useful?

    I’m sitting here, avoiding writing my meaningless self review. I’m a super dedicated employee who takes feedback well and responds to it. But because my annual bonus flows directly from my performance review score, all I care about is getting the highest score so I get the highest possible bonus. I’d love this to be different, but it’s never been anything other than a box to tick on the way to a bigger paycheck.

    1. Jennifer*

      Nah. I’m not going to get anything higher than “meets expectations” (and I’ve gotten lower than that, so….) so nobody has to give me a raise, that’s standard here. So…seriously, who cares?

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        We don’t get performance-based raises, but we do get performance bonuses. And I will flip my lid if I don’t get the highest amount (5% — these aren’t massive bonuses). But I don’t think the process actually has much to do with the score, nor does the process reveal or drive much else of value.

  104. RedCoat*

    My older coworkers (mostly boomers) are starting to drive me a little bonkers. I’m 37 weeks pregnant, and every day at least one of them stops by my office to ask me when I’m going to stop working. I’ve been very open about the fact that I’m not able to take leave until I actually go into labor. Yesterday, one of the leaders of this smallish group came by and was SCANDALIZED that I was still at my desk. At 3 in the afternoon. On a Thursday. She assumed that I should be taking half days every day, and lectured me about how stressful this is for the baby.

    I’m…. unsure as to how I’m supposed to react to all this? It’s mostly whining at this point, but what do they expect me to do? I’ve got food to put on the table and a mortgage to pay. I can’t take a month off of work because working up to delivery day “just wasn’t done!!” in 1974. For context, this is reaaaalllyyy generational. My boss and team leads are X’ers and are not at all phased that I’m still working. I’m a spreadsheet herder, my job is neither dangerous, nor physically taxing, nor even that stressful.

    1. OtterB*

      “I’m fine, thanks. My doctor will tell me if I need to cut back.” + subject change

      Some of this is probably well-meaning attempts to be supportive. Perhaps it’s slightly less annoying if you frame it that way instead of viewing them as overbearing busybodies?

      1. RedCoat*

        Yeah- I think if it wasn’t so well meaning, it’d be easier to handle- everyone is SUPER excited and friendly and just…. a bit overwhelming. I get called ‘Mama’ a lot, I get a lot of ‘advice’ (ginger is good for nausea, who knew?). At least there’s only 2 weeks tops left. :D

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Oh I feel you, I’m 32 weeks pregnant and all anyone ever says to me is baby-related. My typical response is just a quick, chipper, “I’m good!” and then turn back to the computer. If they seem like they want to talk further or ask more questions, I will say something like, “Did you have something about work you needed to ask?” and repeat “I’m good!” ad nauseum about anything pregnancy related, and keep redirecting. Typically once they realize they’re getting nothing out of me, they leave me alone.

    3. KR*

      “This is not up for discussion.” “I’ve got it under control, thanks.” “This isn’t the first time you’ve brought this up and I would appreciate it if you stopped.” “Okay, thanks for the input.” All this said in a very flat, bored, slightly annoyed voice.

    4. Enough*

      I am a boomer and had a co-worker in 1980s that worked up to the day before her scheduled c-section. No one really batted an eye.

    6. Kj*

      Ugh, I feel you. I’m 23 weeks and everyone has been asking me about my plans for maternity leave and they are shocked, shocked, that I am working up until my due date AND taking only six weeks off for maternity leave, which is unpaid. Everyone wants to offer their opinion when I DON”T CARE! I have made my choice, I can deal with it. Older folks who came of age when working women were rarer seem the most concerned. I don’t have any great advise, but to breathe, smile and try not to bite their heads off. That is all I can do.

    8. Chaordic One*

      I don’t get their interest at all. I’ve worked at places where pregnant coworkers went on leave at six months into their pregnancy and where they stayed at work right up until the day before they gave birth. As long as you can do the work, it should be up to you to decide.

      Admittedly, one of the coworkers was probably uncomfortable (she looked it) but she didn’t have much sick leave or vacation time. Anyway, she got her work done. Another coworker was one of those people who didn’t really show and everyone was surprised when she went on leave and learned she’d had a baby.

    9. DCR*

      I’m assuming but can’t tell for sure, that you either don’t get paid leave. I would be so tempted to respond to the comments from managers’ with “oh, I didn’t realize the company paid for me to take time off before the birth. In that case, I would be happy to stop working now.” and to co-workers with “sorry, unless your willing to pay my mortgage this month, I’ve got to keep coming in”

  105. Pop*

    I recently started my second full-time job out of college at an industry leading company in my medium-sized city in the niche area of nonprofit work that I’m passionate about. While the company has been great, the job is not a good fit. Describing it as “mid-level” is insulting, and it’s a huge step backwards from the job that I just left. After two and a half years at my other job, I was project managing several things and the go-to person at my office for another one or two. Here, I am mostly unloading the dishwasher and ordering office supplies and the most challenging thing I’ve done in a month is proofread something my boss wrote, but she didn’t like my edits so she ignored them.

    I finally have come to the realization that I am going to be okay looking for a new job immediately, so my question is – how do I do that? Do I put my current job on my resume, and if so, isn’t that a red flag that I’m looking to leave after a month? Leave it off, which seems dishonest? Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      You can address the “leaving after a month” aspect by saying “it turns out the job was not at all what I had been told.”

  106. LDN Layabout*

    I…have to thank commenters again who answered my questions re: competency questions for the UK civil service/public sector because I have an offer!

    Still have HR things to iron out but the office seem enthusiastic, it brings me into the public sector and it’s a salary over a quarter larger than my current one (still in shock over this).

    My actual question: Does anyone have experience of either having a line manager or being a line manager of someone in a different office? Drawbacks/advice on how to build a relationship/what you’d want from an employee in that position.

    1. Jemima Bond*

      I’m a uk civil servant and was briefly line-managed by someone in an office not too far away, maybe a fifteen minute walk, but a different office nonetheless.
      Are you the line manager in this situation? Assuming you are, I think having a good idea of how experienced and competent your staff members are is absolutely key. You may have some that are all over this like a pigeon on a chip and will actually help you as much as you advise them; with this type you can scale back on contact once you know what’s what but at first you may want to stay in touch by phone/email more regularly finding out what is on their plate, what their plan is, if they need help, blah blah.
      If they are less experienced and need more guidance you might want to keep in touch more regularly for longer. Also bear in mind that you don’t have know the answer to everything but you’ll go a long way if you know or can make an effort to find out who does know the answer. If you have an experienced staff member in the same location as an inexperienced one, get the former to be the go-to or semi-mentor to the latter. That way the noob will benefit from the knowledge of the longer-term employee, and the old hand will keep their skills fresh and gather evidence of management skills for their own career advancement.
      If you are the line-managed person let me know and I’ll hold forth on it that way round!

      1. LDN Layabout*

        No, I’m going to be the managed, not the manager :) I’m in London and they are…not. There are members of my team in the same office, but my manager will only be in my office around once per month which is why I’m a little worried?

        1. soupmonger*

          What are you worried about? I was a manager for 10 years in a sort-of civil service job. I was based in one part of the UK and had employees in four offices around the country. I used to try to get round the offices once a month or so, and it worked out fine.

          If you are given clear guidelines on your job role, expectations and goals, you’ll be fine. If these aren’t clear, ask for them when you meet your manager. Don’t greet your manager with a long list of complaints (one reason I used to loathe going to see one of my reports) – instead, give them a summing-up of your time since you last met, then let them know of any issues you’re having, and offer potential solutions as well.

          1. LDN Layabout*

            I think it’s mostly fear of the unknown :) My current manager literally works opposite me (possibly too close…) and I’ve never been in a situation where my manager isn’t at least in the same office as me.

  107. Foreign Octopus*

    I had a really frustrating experience with a student this week who wanted me to look over her CV and cover letter for a job that she was applying for in Germany. Every suggestion I made (in line with Alison’s advice, of course) was knocked back by the student saying “oh, but so-and-so said it was fine”. It took a lot of effort to not ask why she was coming to me for advice. She didn’t just do this on the CV and cover letter contents, but also with the grammar and spelling. It was a deeply frustrating experience.

    On another note, I put my foot right in it today and I feel so ashamed. I was having a lesson with a new student and I didn’t check his nationality before I called him (it’s been a busy day) and I automatically assumed he was Chinese but he’s actually from Korea. I apologised, of course, but I felt the mortification in every part of my body.

    I’m so glad this day’s over.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Sounds like the student just wanted affirmation that CV/letter was already okay! I can see how that will be frustrating.
      (From student’s perspective — I can see where it will be frustrating to go get advice from one place, work to revise a CV/resume/whatever – and then have someone else give one totally different advice. Though I’m sure your advice was spot-on…)

      1. Inspector Spacetime*

        Doing this stuff as a student was the worst. Everybody tells you different things, and they’re so positive that it has to be done their way and no way else, and you don’t have the experience to know who’s actually right. I’m so glad I had a good career adviser.

      2. The Foreign Octopus*

        I get that. I just wished shed told me clearly what she wanted. I did send her every link I could think of to Alison’s advice so I hope she uses it.

  108. loslothluin*

    I have a question that I’d like some feedback on from commenters.

    Back in April, I interviewed for a job as a liti paralegal. When I didn’t hear back, I assumed I didn’t get the job and didn’t think much more about it. Fast forward to last Friday, and I get a call from one of the attorneys that interviewed me for the litigation paralegal position. He even left his cel phone number so I could call him after I got off work. So, long story longer, he said I hadn’t gotten the job, and I told him that I understood and that I appreciated him calling me. He then said that was hey only interviewed a handful of people for the position, and he said that there was another paralegal job about to open up in the regulatory department since that paralegal had been snipped by the VP to be his executive assistant. The guy said that he’d passed my resume along to the attorney in the regulatory department, and I got the impression that he gave me good marks when he did so. He also emphasized that I needed to keep my eyes open for the posting of the job and apply that way as well, but that he had already given my resume to the person doing the hiring.

    Am I being too optimistic? My background is such an hat I’ve done various kinds of law – litigation, wills/estates, real estate, business transactions, commercial real estate, and business purchase/sale.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      That sounds really optimistic to me! Definitely apply through the system, hope for the best but keep looking.

      My spouse is a regulatory attorney and he really values his paralegals – I hope all goes well!

      1. loslothluin*

        I just wanted to be sure I wasn’t getting hopes up too high. :) I love what I do, but I’ve been at my firm for 11 years. It’s slowing down as the guys get closer to retirement, and I’m not close to that at all. I got the impression he thought it would a great fit for my skill set.

    3. CatCat*

      This sounds like a really good thing in your favor to me. Can’t hurt to apply if you’re interested!

    5. Delta Delta*

      Sounds promising! As a lawyer who’s been involved in hiring, I can confidently say that lawyers don’t like trying to hire people. We want to do lawyer stuff. We wish awesome co-workers just appeared out of thin air so we wouldn’t have to think about doing it. Here’s probably what happened. They interviewed a few people and hired someone. Then realized they needed another person and said “let’s call that person – she seemed great.” Good luck! I hope it works out!

      1. loslothluin*

        Ha! I think my attorneys would rather have a root canal without anesthesia than do any hiring. Im hoping the regulatory department he was talking about is the one that’s based in my home city. My commute would be about 15 minutes vs. the 12 mike, 45-60 minute commute I have right now. I don’t think I’d know what to do with myself if I wasn’t sitting traffic for almost 2 hours a day.

    6. bonkerballs*

      That sounds really, really positive! I would, of course, only be cautiously optimistic since who knows what could happen between now and then, but it definitely calls for optimism.

  109. SophieChotek*

    Meeting with Delegates

    I am meeting with some delegates from out of town. They are doing the “interviewing”…they sent me the questions ahead of time and they are all for the CEO. (How did your business get started? How do you define innovation? What success are you most proud of? Where do you see your business in 10 years? What gets you up in the morning?) — those sorts of questions. However, CEO and no other company reps are coming to the meeting. Just me, the lowest and newest in the PR department. I am getting a deluge of information from our corporate HQ (tell them all about those great media placements we got! show them the photo of the letter CEO got from world-leader 5 years ago)….plus (thankfully) the answers to the questions….

    But any advice? I’ve never had to rep the company for such a high-stakes meeting…and am kind of sad I have to do it all alone…

  110. Annie Edison*

    What’s the appropriate thing to say to someone who has been demoted?

    Normally when someone leaves my team (for whatever reason), an email goes out saying something along the lines of “please join us in congratulating Jane on her upcoming move to Llama wrestling” or something like that. Everyone says congrats and acts happy and someone plans out a small goodbye shindig.

    But in this case, the person leaving is absolutely terrible at their job and has the personality of nails on a chalkboard. A lot of people have been waiting a long time for her to leave. The email that went out said “we regret to inform you that Lucinda will be moving to [super entry level position]”. It’s obviously a major downgrade in title. Lucinda has been visibly upset over it and it looks like the move was probably forced on her.

    I ran into Lucinda shortly after and I didn’t know what to say to her, so I said” I’m sorry to hear you’re leaving us”. I instantly regretted it, because it wasn’t sincere (I’m delighted), and I don’t want her to think that I wanted her to stay. I feel bad for her, but she really is that bad of a fit. The mood around the office was pretty awkward because a lot of people were trying hard not to look happy about this while Lucinda was openly upset. I’m guessing planning the usual goodbye party would be inappropriate as well.

    So what *is* the right thing to say/do in a situation like this? “good luck” or something along those lines seems pretty cruel as well. But I’m at a loss as to what I should have said.

    1. loslothluin*

      I’d just say, “It won’t be the same without you here.” It’s not lying.

      1. Annie Edison*

        Oooh I like that one! She actually said to me “who’s going to sing in the mornings now to cheer this place up?” (nobody, I hope… But I told her it would feel so quiet without it). It certainly won’t be the same!

        1. loslothluin*

          Misdirection can be a huge saver. Like when my hell-raising coworker quit, and I just said, “It’ll be so weird with you gone.” It was weird – quiet and peaceful. Not my fault she took it positively. :D

    2. SoCalHR*

      Maybe something like “I wish you the best in your new position” . Also I cringed a little at the “we regret to inform you…” part of the email. Even if its glaringly obvious to everyone its a demotion, it probably should have been kept more neutral (i.e. “please be advised that as of XX date, Lucinda will be in the role of XX position”)

      1. Annie Edison*

        Yes the wording was SUPER awkward. It would have been easier to respond to the neutral email for sure. That said, with Lucinda openly crying about it, I wonder if they did that deliberately so that people *knew* it wasn’t positive? I haven’t seen a demotion here because but when people have been fired it’s always been very neutral.

      3. WellRed*

        yeah, that’s horrible wording! No matter how awful she is, no one deserves that kind of announcement.

  111. Jennifer*

    I have a new student assistant. I am technically supposed to share him with others, but they almost never use him so he’s pretty much mine. My previous one only worked about 10 hours (usually less because she kept having stuff come up) and that was fine, but this one is able to work lots of hours–he’s doing 15 and wants to do full time come summer.

    However: because he is a student, his access to things is limited and I am permitted to only give him certain things and not others, and that mostly depends on how much stuff is sent into the office. Which is to say he has 5 hour long shifts 3 days a week and man, I do not have 5 hours a day of work for him really. I sure as hell don’t have full time work and it’s all on me to assign it. I don’t know what to do. I can try to come up with super tedious busy work (and right now, that’s it, that’s all I got today, I have next to nothing to give him!), but 90% of the time it’s just not that busy with the work I can give him. There’s gonna be some avalanches starting next week so the end of June should be busy and…then back to slow again. I am missing how my old assistant would only be in for 1-2 hours at a stretch most of the time, that seemed to match the workload I had coming in. But five…long..hours…all on me to give him work and there just isn’t five hours a day of student-only work!

    What do I do? I feel like an asshole saying “please have him work less hours” (he quit another job to do this one), but man, I got almost nothing because of the student restrictions.

    1. fposte*

      Possibilities: can you ask him to do five threes instead of three fives? And can you ask him to look around and come up with a list of possible projects for him to tackle himself?

      1. Jennifer*

        Well, he can work 3 or 4 days out of the week, one day is booked. But otherwise, yeah, I like this idea. Will have to discuss with supervisor though.
        Possible projects: probably not since he’s so new he doesn’t really know what to do yet.
        He really wanted to work on my second specialty, which students aren’t allowed to do. I wish we could hire him after graduation, darn it.

        1. fposte*

          It doesn’t hurt you any if some of what he suggests is wrong, though. Basically let him loose as a low level process auditor on what might be helpful to get done and then just cherry pick or ignore. It’ll depend on his talent and initiative level, but often you can find stuff that you’ve taken for granted will never get done this way and get a shiny new filing system or vacuumed storage corner out of it.

    2. lisalee*

      I think you should talk to the student directly about this. Maybe he’s okay with having some downtime at work, or maybe he would like to cut back his hours instead. Maybe there’s other departments that he’s interested in and you could loan him to them for a bit. Either way, don’t just surprise him with a reduction in hours.

    3. Little Bean*

      Are there things he could do that would be more about learning the job, rather than actually doing work, kinda like an internship? Like, could he attend meetings just to sit in and learn? Could he spend time shadowing people in other departments, or doing professional development? I don’t know if that’s appropriate for the kind of role he’s in but just thought I’d make the suggestion.

      Also, if he’s a student assistant on a college campus, it’s pretty normal for students in some jobs to be allowed to just study while they’re at work if there’s no work to do. There are a lot of student jobs where they just need someone to answer the phone but as long as it’s not ringing, they can kind of do what they want.

    4. BadWolf*

      These ideas are based off of when I was a student worker in my college English Department

      Is this a job where it’s cool if he does homework? Or is he supposed to be occupied the whole time?

      Could he walk around and check if anyone needs library books returned or copies made or other basic tasks? Sometimes people are bad at thinking of things they need done.

      Do you need anything totally reorganized or cleaned, like taking down all the books, wiping them and the shelf down or something?

      Can he job share more hours with another department?

    5. Lindsay J*

      Can you send him to Lynda.com or similar to work on Excel skills or something like that during his down time?

    6. Chaordic One*

      Gee, it is too bad that you can’t dump (I mean “share”) him with the others and have them find more work for him to do. I’d really talk to those others and see if they can’t find some busywork for him.

  112. Her Little Ladyship*

    I’m hoping this won’t get buried, because I could use some help troubleshooting what I’m doing wrong in my job search.

    I graduated with my BA three years ago, and since then I’ve worked full time at various contract jobs. I hate it. I’d really like an entry level job in something like marketing or a different field where I could use my creative side, but I live in a city where competition is fierce in those industries. When I write my cover letters, I try to focus on the skills that I’ve picked up in my various contract positions, but I worry that hiring managers aren’t interested in someone with my background, even for entry level positions. None of the companies I’ve temped with were ones I wanted to stay at permanently (save for one who laid me off a few months back).

    I feel really conflicted: on the one hand, the economy in my city is supposedly great, and I feel like I should already have a steady job, lots of other people don’t have this much trouble finding work. On the other hand, I know this economy is really tough for people without experience in their desired fields, and even if you have a good job you may need another one to make ends meet.

    Honestly I just need health insurance and PTO. Screw contracting.

    1. HMM*

      When I was in this situation – moved to SF Bay Area without a job and a mismash of admin experience – it really really helped me to focus on applying to only one field/one kind of job. When I was applying to everything I thought I could do, it really came out in my cover letters that I didn’t know what I wanted (even though at the time, I thought the cover letters were really focused and tight).

      When I decided to apply to only HR jobs, it made it so much easier to illustrate why I wanted to join this particular field and do this particular job. Also, the applications became much quicker, because I wasn’t having to write cover letters for tons of different fields and opportunities. All the jobs for HR coordinator or HR assistant needed the same kinds of skills, so I could write one master cover letter then tweak to fit the role.

      Good luck!

    2. justsomeone*

      One way to get your foot in the door in a new industry IS contracting, unfortunately. And a lot of entry-level marketing positions (at least in my city) are filled via temp agencies. I used a temp agency that places for marketing and communications positions to find my job. I’m not sure what city you’re in but a couple of temp agencies that focus on marketing/communications/graphic design, etc are Creative Circle and The Creative Group and Vitamin T and Aquent. Some even offer benefits that you can opt into, depending on the length of your contract.
      Good luck in your search!

  113. Librarian By Day*

    I’ve been volunteering and working in libraries since I was 12 years old and received my MLIS last month. (I’m 23). I’ve been putting feelers out for a different position because I’m not super fond of my current job (way underpaid, even for a library, super difficult people in management). I just got a call yesterday that I have an interview mid next week for a branch manager position in another system! I’m super SUPER nervous and don’t know what kinds of questions I might get since it’s a step up for me. (My current position is a department supervisor and they didn’t really ask me any management questions in the interview….that’s a different story.)

    I’m also super worried that they’ll take one look at me and think I’m way too young. Any tips on any of my garbled mess of worries? What kind of questions were you asked during a management interview? Is there any way (or should I at all) I should try and appear a little bit older than 23? Thanks!!

    1. Leave it to Beaver*

      Do you mean in terms of your appearance? Don’t mess with yourself too much. Dress, act, and speak in relation to your experience — not your age. I imagine, since its a branch manager position, they’ll want to know your thoughts on managing people and conflicts, so I would think back to particular situations or projects that demonstrate your ability to a) work well with people b) motivate and inspire folks to do good work and c) handle conflict.

      Good luck!

      1. Librarian By Day*

        Thanks! The rational part of me knows that I just need to be professional and speak about all of the times in the past that I’ve managed conflict and demonstrated leadership. I just also have worked with a lot of librarians who seem to think that 40 is “young” for a management position so it’s….worrisome.

        1. Leave it to Beaver*

          To be honest, I don’t think you can combat those who have that belief and if they’re unwilling to think outside the box and even just to consider you, that’s their loss. So don’t worry about that. Worry about what you can control and do your best. Good luck!

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Make sure you dress well. Suit. Shoes that are appropriate. Shell or something under the suit.

      I have interviewed younger candidates for management positions. When I do I am often concerned when I notice them wearing too casual of shoes with their suit or hair that isn’t neat and tidy. It’s a small thing, but it adds to the appearance of immaturity. If I have any concerns about the maturity of the person I’m interviewing, this can be a huge red flag.

      Beyond that, I would practice what you are going to say and make sure you think carefully. Managing people older than you can be quite tough, so you need to be able to answer questions about that and be sure you want to do it.

  114. LadyKelvin*

    Guys, I have been waiting to tell someone this since Wednesday: I work at a federal agency and one of my colleagues got fired. It does and can happen! I feel a little bit bad because I am happy, but he was a condescending, misogynistic ^$#hole who didn’t think that women could possibly know more than him about anything. He also was a terrible boundary stomper and I would lie to him about where I was going or what I was doing around the office so that he didn’t invite himself along. He unfortunately will not learn from this instance and instead believes himself to be unfairly fired because our boss just didn’t like him and she had it out for him from the start. It has nothing to do with the fact that he totally disregarded core hours and showed up late morning everyday, never came to meetings on time, spent most of his day wandering around talking to people (in his words “making his rounds”), and treated both her and the master’s level below him like crap because they were girls and couldn’t possibly question him. He was fired within his first year’s probation, so it was a bit easier, and I am shocked and thrilled that my boss was willing to do so. Our team was stunned on Thursday when she told us the news, but I have no doubt that we will be better off without him. I feel much better telling someone all that since I’ll keep my real opinions to myself here, so thanks for listening.

    3. Sally-O*

      Lucky! There’s a person at my agency whom I really think should be fired, but probably won’t be. :-/

  115. Little Bean*

    Two questions:

    1) Will this job history make me look like a job hopper? 8 years, 1 year, 3 years, and now I’ve been in my current role for about 11 months. If I leave now, that will be two 1-year stints on my resume. Is this the kind of situation where I should only do it if I’m really committed to staying at my next job for multiple years? Or do those 8 yr and 3 yr tenures buy me some flexibility?

    2) Should I apply for a job if I would only accept a salary around 5-7% higher than than the range they posted in the job description? I work in public higher ed so I know there’s a possibility that they just literally won’t be able to go above the posted range, but sometimes departments are able to find more money if they really want a candidate. From the outside, I can’t know which is the case for this job. Would it be considered rude to apply knowing that I’d have to ask for more, like I’m wasting their time? Also, I do know the person who would supervise this role, so should I discreetly let her know I’m thinking about it and what my salary requirement would be, and ask her if she thinks I should still apply?

    1. fposte*

      On 1, it depends on the field and why you left the last three jobs, and whether there was any building going on of skills over the course of them. On 2, I’d reach out to the person you know on the question.

      1. Little Bean*

        I work in higher ed student affairs. The first 8 year role was continuously advancing the whole time – I started out as a part-time front desk admin and ended as the interim department manager. The next 2 roles were technically lateral moves but in pretty different areas of my field so I definitely think I gained a lot of valuable skills. The most recent move was a promotion. If it helps, I am planning to stay within the same organization and I think I’ve built a reputation for myself as a good worker. A lot of people know me, I’m very involved with professional development, I’ve been nominated for awards and things like that.

        1. Cruciatus*

          I am sure I remember Alison saying that it’s not job hopping in your own organization. If those were all separate employers, maybe. But otherwise it’s not quite considered that within the organization. (Though it’s possible that some hiring managers may wonder why you’re already leaving any job, even within the organization after 11 months). I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong–but I think you are given more room for this issue if you’re still at the same employer.

        2. fposte*

          FWIW, it’s not like there’s a flowchart that says “Jobhopper y/n?” The question is whether your work history demonstrates what they want to hire you for. If they like longer commitments, shorter stays don’t help you much. If they like versatility and would be comfortable with your leaving in a year, your last five years sound fine. It also depends on what the other candidates are bringing to the table.

          1. Little Bean*

            Hmm good point. I think the reason I’m so stuck on it is because I’m not sure I want to leave this job. I mostly like it, but there are a few aspects that aren’t ideal and they’re kind of being highlighted right now. Also, I have a lot of turmoil in my personal life and honestly, feel like a positive change in my professional life would help me (although maybe it would just be because I want the distraction). The last time I left a job after only a year, I knew it was not the right job for me and I was really excited about the new job, and I felt really confident I would stay in the new job for a while.

  116. justsomeone*

    This week has been an absolute rollercoaster ride, and I need to share the whiplash. A couple of weeks ago, our team brought in a new director C, between my boss (A) and then-grandboss (D). Suprise! So, now my Grandboss (D) is my grand-grandboss and I have a new grandboss (C). Then, Tuesday, suddenly, my beloved boss (A) tells me she’s transitioning to a new role 100% remote and no direct reports. So my new grandboss (C) is suddenly my boss. Then the new boss says she’s bringing in someone to replace my former boss (A). So, she’d be my grandboss again, and I’d have a new boss. BUT! She’s also reorganizing the department, and now it looks like the plan is to bump me up to my former boss’s (A) level (some of her responsibilities, some other new things), so the new boss would be my peer, my new grandboss would be my boss, and my original grandboss (D) would continue to be my grandboss. Is your head spinning? Mine sure is. To top this all off, I’m not amaaaazing with change that comes with a lot of uncertainty tied to it so my anxiety has been through the roof. BUT the new role they’re building for me is project management which is exactly what I want to be doing. And I’m sad about my boss A leaving, as she’s been an incredible mentor, but I am really excited about the doors it’s opening up for me at my company right now. I have so many emotions whipping around right now.
    But there’s also a small fear in the back of my head that the PM role won’t work out, or won’t work out the way I hoped, in which case I think it’s probably my cue to move on from the company. Which is a scary thought to harbor.

    1. Anna Held*

      Congratulations! This is wonderful news!

      Change is hard, even good change. But you’ll soon settle into the new normal, and you’ll have a shiny new promotion to go with it! You’re movin’ on up!

      Plus, it seems as though New Boss likes you. You’re adding to your network, not losing a good boss. Yay you!

  117. Anon for Friday*

    Good news for once in an area where we so rarely hear good news: I believe a sexual harasser at my workplace is to be fired. I was not harassed by them, but the people who were talked to me about it and I strongly encouraged them to go to HR with what happened. I’m just relieved and grateful, because unfortunately this isn’t always (or even regularly) the outcome of reporting sexual harassment.

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      It seems like such a low bar, but so many companies fail at it… :/

      That’s great news! I’m sure everyone is relieved.

      1. Anon for Friday*

        Seriously!

        I’m very glad. And frankly, very proud of the individuals who were victimized. They are younger, new to their careers, and in what some around here consider “low rung” jobs, so they aren’t even used to being treated with proper respect. I told them how proud I was of them for reporting what happened, because I know from experience (and also just living in this world) how hard and scary that can be, especially when so many companies fail to act appropriately. I really hope that this experience builds a good foundation for them (and is a lesson for everyone) that no matter our gender, age, or career, sexual harassment is intolerable and unacceptable.

  118. De Minimis*

    So sick of job searching. The brief interest of a month ago seems to be gone, and now I’m not sure what to do. I’m looking at positions in different locations across the country, and also some that are relatively close by. I had a few interviews, but now nothing. I felt I did fairly well in at least one of the interviews, but I’m pretty sure they passed on me.

    I really need to relocate because it’s just too expensive here where I live, but of course it’s tough a find a job from out of state. I’ve had a few phone interviews, and I’m guess I should be lucky that I was even considered for those, but nothing has worked out so far.

    Just trying to think of what the problem might be. I’m 45 and am just kind of moving into a mid-career professional level [did a career change to accounting about 10 years ago, had a long employment gap during the recession, but have worked pretty steadily over the past 5-6 years.] I’ve worked in a federal government job and for a small nonprofit, which is where I currently work. I’m thinking my age plus the somewhat specialized areas of my experience are putting people off. I think it also maybe throws people off a bit when they see how old I am but that I only have around 5 years of experience. I also have put on weight due to stress over the last couple of years and I’m sure that’s not helping. Of course, that wouldn’t explain being turned down by employers through phone interviews!

    All I hear is about how great the job market is, but I seem to be having a really hard time moving into a new position, even though I’m currently employed [soon to be part-time, though] in an area with unemployment below 4%. Not sure what to do, I have about a month to find something else before the change in my income really starts to cause problems.

    1. Boredatwork*

      I think you probably already answered your own question. You’re too expensive for the number of years of accounting experience you have. How are you applying for jobs? I’ve always used recruiters (**gag**) and they help narrow down the choices/are upfront about salary.

      If you haven’t gone that route, give it a shot. It can’t hurt.

      1. De Minimis*

        Most of the jobs I’ve been going for have a salary range posted and are more or less a match for me experience-wise. When I say specialized experience, I mean that I’ve worked in government and for non-profit, and it seems like there hasn’t been much interest outside those two sectors. Especially not in for-profit industry, not even ones that are somewhat related to work I’ve done in the past.

        One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of positions seem to either be entry-level or involve management. I’m not really suitable for either. I was irritated by an interview last month where I’d passed the initial panel interview
        only to find out that most of the job would involve supervision, even though it was only briefly mentioned in the job description.

        1. Boredatwork*

          I can only speak to my experience being hired by for profit public companies, there is a very serious leaning toward the candidates recruiters bring to companies versus the ones that apply directly. It seems counter intuitive given the massive fees.

          I’ve applied both ways – the jobs that I applied to directly, I would either never hear back or they would ghost me after a phone call. I have received job offers from every interview I received from using a recruiter.

          That’s extremely frustrating. In my market the 5+ year experience level is an extremely hot commodity. You’re at that perfect I know what I’m doing, but I’m okay with being staff level.

  119. Red*

    Well, I’m officially on disability for mental health issues. Can’t go into the office without crying my eyes out and wanting to jump out the window. Any advice for when I go back in a couple weeks? Hopefully my meds will be working again by then

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yeah, I agree with this. Speak with your therapist about this and make sure you have a plan in place.

        Also, check to see if you can return part time before jumping back into full time.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Well, if your manager has been helpful and understanding, thank her for this. “It’s been difficult, I’m doing better. Your understanding and help have made a big difference.” Then pivot to “what do you want me to start on now that I am back?”

      For coworkers, assume their questions mean they are concerned for you and wishing you the best. “Thank you for asking. I am doing better and am so glad to be back at work. Having a supportive boss and company has meant so much to me. I am looking forward to working on X and Y. What did I miss while I was gone?”

      Have a couple of work related questions in mind that you can ask about.

      I am glad that you are able to take time off to get better.

  120. HMM*

    When I was in this situation – moved to SF Bay Area without a job and a mismash of admin experience – it really really helped me to focus on applying to only one field/one kind of job. When I was applying to everything I thought I could do, it really came out in my cover letters that I didn’t know what I wanted (even though at the time, I thought the cover letters were really focused and tight).

    When I decided to apply to only HR jobs, it made it so much easier to illustrate why I wanted to join this particular field and do this particular job. Also, the applications became much quicker, because I wasn’t having to write cover letters for tons of different fields and opportunities. All the jobs for HR coordinator or HR assistant needed the same kinds of skills, so I could write one master cover letter then tweak to fit the role.

    Good luck!

  121. Church Lady*

    All, I have reached the end of my rope with my job, and will be giving two weeks notice shortly. What should I be doing before I give notice? I have asked for copies of all my performance reviews. I have started cleaning up my computer, old emails, etc.

    What else? Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

    1. De Minimis*

      Pack up all your personal stuff and take it home sooner rather than later. It’ll be one less thing you’ll have to do.

      Get copies of any pay stubs/other payroll records if you don’t already have them.

    2. Chaordic One*

      If you feel like it, and if you are up to it, you might prepare some manuals detailing office procedures to make it a bit easier for whomever comes in and replaces you.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      Alison wrote a column called “What you need to do before you quit your job” (it ran on Sep 12, 2016) and it had a number of useful pointers in it. I also saved comments from some in the peanut gallery. In addition to what’s already here, you can add: (1) Use your insurance benefits as much as is feasible before moving on. (2) Since you haven’t given your 2 weeks’ notice yet, be sure to check the timing of your departure to maximize your benefits. (Having your last day be the first of the month rather than than the last can sometimes give you an extra month of health benefits and vacation time.) (3) Make sure you get all of your mileage/expense reimbursements submitted and paid for, and make sure everything on your corporate card is accounted for properly. Best of luck going forward.

  122. Environmental Compliance*

    BossMan finally came down and gave special access to a vehicle for me and one other person, which is great because we were supposed to and people kept just leaving the vehicle parked in random places around the plant. But after the decree was put forth this morning, whoever took the car this morning before the meeting left it at the main office…with the windows down. It’s stormed for the past hour. My jeans are SOAKED.

    Hubs is still job searching, and has a couple leads out. Hoping they pan out for him soon.

  123. Anon for this one*

    I’m super late to the party this week and will probably get buried, but I’m going to throw this in anyway, just in case.
    How do you acknowledge in a cover letter that you and the reader know each other? I’ve done a quick google search and found a lot of “writing a cover letter to a friend” or “former co-worker” or “current co-worker” but this is not quite the case here.
    The circles in my industry are small. stay in one city long enough and you meet just about everyone. I have met, and had conversations with, the hiring manager for this job at numerous networking and other industry events/parties. we are linked on linkedin and facebook because of this (that happened over a year ago, and i was not the “instigator”- this person sent the request to me). I know without a shadow of a doubt that this person knows exactly who I am, but we are not exactly friends or super close or have a long professional history or anything like that. I was thinking my salutation could be a bit more casual than “dear___” and then…?? How would you start off a cover letter in this situation?

    1. CM*

      I think Dear [name] would be fine, without anything more to acknowledge your connection. But you could also say something like, “I’ve enjoyed our conversations about llama wrangling at LlamaCons in the past and hope to talk more with you about how my experience fits into this role” (those words aren’t quite right, but the idea is to casually reference your professional connection and the fact that the hiring manager is already somewhat familiar with your qualifications).

      1. Anon for this one*

        Thank you! The funny thing is, I actually had a sentence almost exactly the same as what you suggested in my first draft, but was questioning it. I guess i should have trusted that instinct. :-)

    2. Teapotastrophe*

      I would address it so Lucinda personally, and then make a personal reference to how you know each other, preferably in a work related context about a project you did together or whatever. Decidedly NOT something like ‘remember that time we stayed out drinking and lost our shoes in the river at that convention’ or whatever. Friendly but professional.

    3. beanie beans*

      I wouldn’t cater it too much to that specific person since other people may also be reading your cover letter and you wouldn’t want it to come off as “hire me because we’re pals.” I like CM’s wording – casual reference to how you know each other, but still good to assume that you should explain why you’re interested in and qualified for the position.

    4. CTT*

      How are you submitting the cover letter? If it’s by email, you might want to do standard cover letter, but mention your connection in the email (something along the lines of what CM said about “I enjoyed discussing X with you in the past…”).

  124. help...*

    How do you get yourself to stay focused at work, when you have a lot of random personal things going on? Not one thing that you can talk about, but just mind that is racing with all different things? To make matters worse, it’s a new job….

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Make a list of all of the personal things happening. Just get it all on a sheet of paper. Hopefully if it isn’t in your head, you can focus better on work. I sometimes make myself keep certain things in my head because I “don’t want to forget” for later. Just write it down. That’s what Evernote or other apps like that are for. It’s simplified things.

    2. GeekChick603*

      +1 to MechanicalPencil’s advice.

      Also, if you are thinking about things and trying to figure something out, write out your feelings, ideas, questions, or other thoughts. You can erase the file or burn the paper after you’re finished with the exercise, but I find it’s really helpful to write all the crap in my head out onto paper so I can focus on my work for the day.

      I try to take 10 – 20 minutes every morning to get it all out into a Word doc, or something. I do technical writing for work, so I can’t have these random thoughts getting in the way of the writing work I’m getting paid to do.

  125. Super stressed*

    There’s A Situation happening at my workplace and the legality/general ethics of it all are really foreign to me, so I’d like to hear people’s thoughts! Here are the details:

    Draco reports to Snape. Snape reports to Dumbledore.
    Draco and Snape have never gotten along. Draco has made it very clear he’d prefer to be managed by Dumbledore. Dumbledore has no interest in this.
    Draco has repeatedly gone to Dumbledore with requests for time off; Dumbledore, not realizing the internal politics at play, says “ok thanks for telling me” and Draco takes this as formal approval of the time off request; there have literally been days where Snape says “where’s Draco” because Draco only told Dumbledore and not Snape.
    This goes on without resolution. Draco runs out of vacation days.
    Draco goes on FMLA. His hours vary but he’s generally working 20 hours a week at best.
    Snape goes on vacation.
    Draco wants to take a day off (he explicitly stated it was for leisure, and not for reasons related to the FMLA) and submits an unpaid time off request while Snape is on vacation.
    Snape doesn’t see this request until the day before the day in question, and then doesn’t approve it because Draco isn’t getting work done as it is due to his shortened hours.
    Theh day in question arrives, and Draco is not in the office. I don’t know if Draco saw the denial and chose to ignore it, or if he didn’t check his email. I also don’t know if Draco told Dumbledore he wanted the day off.

    Obviously this is a conflict and I don’t know how it will play out, but I’m just curious if there are legal issues at play, here? Does Draco have any grounds to push back on Snape for denying the request? Can Draco really be reprimanded, since it’s unpaid time off anyway? Should individuals who have shortened hours due to FMLA generally not expect to be able to take vacation time (let alone unpaid time)? I feel sympathy for both parties in the situation I’ve described and I don’t know how it works!

    1. fposte*

      Draco’s lucky to still have a job. He’s taking time off without getting his manager’s approval, and I’m not sure why Snape hasn’t dealt with his failure to report appropriately to his manager. I can’t tell if your office grants paid vacation time and Draco took unpaid time because he was out or not, but that’s way low on the list of problems here.

      1. Super stressed*

        Yeah, I don’t know all the details but I know Snape has made various overtures to resolve the time off issue and Draco will stop the behavior for a while…but then starts doing it again. Draco also tends to go to Dumbledore with his time off requests on days when Snape is out of the office, which I suspect is intentional.

        1. Decima Dewey*

          Draco needs to hear that, no matter how much he’d like to managed by Dumbledore, Snape is actually his manager and needs to approve leave requests. If Draco hasn’t asked Snape for the time off, he’s AWOL.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Draco is digging himself a hole. Ignoring his manager is a bad, bad idea and I’m surprised it has not gotten him into trouble yet. I have no sympathy for Draco in this case because he’s not getting his work done and deliberately making it hard to manage him.

      Unpaid time off is still a request that needs approval because it’s time out of the office not doing work. FMLA shouldn’t affect vacation approvals (paid or unpaid) as far as I know, but taking off a day that was explicitly not approved is Not Good. IMO he has no standing to push back on not getting approval, and should actually be in deep trouble for no-showing.

      1. Super stressed*

        This all makes sense. Would it changes things if Draco did go to Dumbledore with the request? It seems like there’s a separate issue of undermining Snape, but I think Draco’s response when he comes in on Monday is probably going to be “well when Dumbledore said “ok” I thought he was approving my time off, and Snape reports to Dumbledore, so how can I be in trouble?”

        1. fposte*

          Because he’s supposed to go to his boss, which he damn well knows, and he didn’t.

        2. Nacho*

          That part of the problem is something Snape should go to Dumbledore about. Even if he doesn’t though, asking Dumbledore isn’t some kind of magic spell to protect him from being reprimanded. He can and will get in trouble for this, and it might end up with him getting fired if it goes on too long.

    3. Malloy*

      This all sounds like Snape’s problem to manage. Performance, attendance, time off etc. Snape needs to work on his management.

      If Draco had a better manager, he’d be on a PIP by now.

      1. LCL*

        Yeah. The two suits, Snape and Dumbledore, must talk to each other and iron out the policy on who has the authority to approve time off requests. Then tell Draco. Who is working the system as hard as he can work it.

      2. Red Reader*

        Dumbledore isn’t looking too shiny either, to my way of thinking. Why is he not telling Draco to take it up with Snape?

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I agree with this too, that Snape and Dumbledore are not exactly handling this well. Dumbledore *might* think that Draco already had permission from Snape and is just informing him (“thanks for letting me know”), which is about the only way I could see it being okay that he hasn’t said anything. But since this is apparently a pattern, Dumbledore should tell Draco that he’s required to get his direct manager’s approval each and every time Draco goes to him.

          And Snape needs to explain things to Draco and take actual steps if there’s any more insubordination.

          2. A Nickname for AAM*

            It sounds like Dumbledore is undermining Snape, by approving these things, thus encouraging employees to ask Dumbledore for things that Snape said they couldn’t have.

    4. Kathenus*

      I agree with many comments already, but one thing I haven’t seen yet that will help with the symptom (time off scheduling), but not the root problem (Draco going around Snape and Dumbledore enabling it). I’d say that there needs to be a formal time off approval process, in writing. That’s what we’ve had most places I work. You fill out a form for the request, turn it in, your supervisor evaluates the time off and scheduling needs for the area, and approves or not, also in writing. Take out the gray area. Also allows a documentation process to be used for discipline if needed if someone is not following the approved process.

  126. Rachel W.*

    Work is terrible right now. I’m in the middle of a months-long intense pay dispute with my employer over sex-related pay discrimination (it’s super fun). My employer is currently “reviewing my complaint,” and I feel like I’m in limbo. I have talked with the EEOC and a lawyer, but I’m waiting to file a formal government complaint until after I find a new job.

    I’ve applied for 10-or-so other positions in the area and gotten 4 interviews so far. I had a phone interview this week, and was called back for second round next week. I feel very good about this position and I think I have a fair chance. The pay is higher, and the duties actually less stressful! BUT It’s in a town 2 hours away. I’ve lived there before and it’s a nice place, calmer than my current city, and I know I could make it there, but do I really want to upend my entire life and move? I feel like being stuck in this job/dispute right now is making me incredibly miserable and my mental health is in tatters, which is affecting my decision making. Moving would free me from all this current stress, but I’ve also made a home here, and when things settle down I’m afraid I’d miss it. Oof.

    2. fposte*

      Sorry, that sucks! I did just want to check that you’re watching the clock on your window for filing your complaint–it’s either 300 or 180 days, depending on your state, which can go pretty fast.

      1. Rachel W.*

        I am watching – I met with the EEOC to discuss filing, and have until January 2019 to do so (based on date of discovery.) So hopefully new job come along before the clock runs down and I have to file it anyway.

        1. fposte*

          I figured, since you mentioned a lawyer and the EEOC, but I hate to see these things fall through the cracks. Getting a good new job is the best revenge–I hope you find one soon. (I personally think two hours away seems doable, and you don’t have to stay there for the rest of your life, but there are a lot of important details that could change the balance.)

    3. Jennifer*

      Well, you could take the new job and see if the 2 hour commute is worth the not moving, or vice versa.

      But yeah, you are not in the world’s best decision making place right now and you know it.

    4. Kathenus*

      You might also want to give your current employer a deadline for taking action before you file an official complaint. Then it won’t keep dragging on, and on. Good luck, and kudos to you for taking these steps.

    1. fposte*

      Yes. I am “guilty” of understanding that workplace communication doesn’t all fit the mold they’re imposing on it, and eyerolling at their super-annoying title.

      1. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

        Yeah, it kind of confused me. Do they want people not to express humility or uncertainty, and not to distinguish between facts and opinions (or between deductions and directly-observed evidence)?

    2. Chaordic One*

      In the past when I wasn’t certain I could meet a deadline would say “I’ll try,” because I didn’t want to lie and say something would be ready, if I wasn’t able get it together by the deadline. If I missed the deadline, I didn’t want to have to apologize for doing so later and I didn’t want to raiser expectations. I guess you ‘re better off to say that you’ll do something, and then if you can’t get it done in time apologize for it.

  128. CM*

    Just getting this off my chest… I think the only advice to be given here is “get over it.” After spending years on a nonprofit board, in a significant leadership position, I decided to step down because I had spent so much of my time and energy on it and needed a break. At the time, everybody joked that they wouldn’t let me go, encouraged me to come back, etc. But it was radio silence from the board as soon as I left. At first I would make an effort to reach out to them and ask about what was going on. Recently they completed two important projects that I was involved with at the beginning, and I found out by reading about it in the newspaper. I took it surprisingly personally. I felt really upset that nobody had mentioned it to me. Then yesterday, I happened to pass by a reception that this organization was having. The people I ran into outside assumed that I was there for the reception, but I didn’t even know about it. When the person at the door invited me in, I thanked them but said I couldn’t stay and walked away. I thought I might start crying, silly as that sounds. I wouldn’t feel this way about a paid job, but I poured so much of my energy into this organization and I feel like I became invisible as soon as I left. I know there is no reason to take it personally, but it still feels bad.

    1. De Minimis*

      That’s really crappy. I don’t blame you for feeling that way. I know at the nonprofit where I work it’s established practice to maintain connections with anyone who ever worked for us and especially anyone who ever served on the board. You have every right to feel upset by it, their behavior is inexcusable.

      1. CM*

        Thank you, that helps to hear! I know this group well enough to know that outreach is a perennial weakness, even though their intentions are good. They actually asked me to be part of their “circle of advisors” after I left and I happily agreed, but then I never heard from them again! And I’m not really surprised that the official advisory circle thing didn’t go anywhere, I just thought I was still connected enough there that they would think to include me on important news and events. (Also, I have professional expertise on one of these issues that would have been useful to them.)

        I’m sure if I mentioned this to the current leadership they would apologize and it probably hasn’t occurred to them that I would care or that this kind of communication is something they should think about. I just need some time for the hurt feelings to die down before talking to them about it.

      2. Penny Hartz*

        Yeah, I mean you really do have to basically “get over it,” but you are completely justified in feeling how you feel. I always wonder about nonprofits (especially those that rely on donors and volunteers) that treat people poorly. Especially people who care enough about their cause to A) want to work for them or, as in your case B) pour a lot of time, effort, and heart into their cause. How do they think that looks? What do they think those folks are going to do when looking for a place for their time or money? Or when asked about Nonprofit X?

  129. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

    Yesterday I had an interview (HR and a short quiz) and I was really surprised when they said they wanted me to come back for a second round! The problem is that during my chat with HR there was no room to mention I’m a part-time student, and I’m pretty sure they will turn me down the moment I mention it. I’m trying to find a way to say it without sounding I omitted this on purpose.

    Also, there is a position that has been vacant for ages in my area, but nobody wants it because it’s a dumpster fire and the company offers no benefits at all. In the last two years it has been advertised by a dozen different staffing agencies, and half of them either cold called me or filled my inbox with spam. I’m getting tired of saying “no, I don’t want it, please don’t contact me anymore”.

  130. Teapotastrophe*

    Rant/Advice needed
    My PM asked me to do a project outside my scope but within my abilities. Alright, I can be a team player. No specific parameters were given by the PM, just do the thing. In a meeting yesterday, one of the other Llama Groomers had redone part of my work germane to her department. Part of me doesn’t care. I did my part and the PM was grateful. However, it’s also the principle of the matter because the Llama Groomer made a point to mention that her re-work was following the guidelines. I was not given any. There’s some history between us, so that’s likely feeding into my feeling.

    My needed advice comes here: the PM has more work for me, and it will overlap with that Llama Groomer’s department again. I’m tempted to tell the PM to just let Llama Groomer do it since she’s so particular about it, but I also want to be a team player. Do I just suck it up and do it like I had been sans guidelines or…?

    1. fposte*

      I’d just say “It seemed like my work would be more helpful if I had the guidelines; I think LG had to redo some of it last time. Can you get me the guidelines so that doesn’t have to happen again?”

      1. Teapotastrophe*

        I would feel more inclined to say that if any of the project seemed to follow any sort of guidelines. I started following the style the PM used, and that’s what I stuck with. That’s why this feels more personal than not. I suppose I should have clarified.

        1. Anon for now*

          Since she mentioned guidelines, request the guidelines. I don’t think it matters if the project seems to follow the guidelines in general.

    2. Camellia*

      Hmm. What if you thanked LG and asked LG for the guidelines? Might that help sooth the ‘history’ between you or just make it worse?

      I asked because this tactic is sometimes successful for me. Hey, you are trying to make me look bad but it’s really hard to do that if I acknowledge my knowledge gap and ask for help to close it! [said with my nicest smile]

      I actually learned this from someone at a church I attended long ago. I saw her walk up to a woman, throw her arm around her shoulders and give her a big smile and how-ya-doin! Since I know this lady did not really like my friend, I asked my friend about it later. She laughed and said as soon as she finds out that someone doesn’t like her for reasons she just kills them with friendliness. I’ve adapted it for work.

  131. AdAgencyChick*

    I share an office with a heavy breather.

    There’s really nothing I can do but headphones, right?

    2. Nanc*

      Hum the Star Wars Imperial March? Sorry–not helpful! Teapotastrophe’s suggestions are good. Is there any way to rearrange office furniture so you two are as far from each other as possible?

  132. Wendy Darling*

    I can’t decide if I should let my boss know I got some really bad news yesterday that is kind of messing me up. My mom came over yesterday to tell me her brain tumor has recurred and they’re trying to figure out treatment options. It’s a tumor with good survivability but that means there’s a 60% chance of surviving five years.

    I’m taking it about as well as could be expected but I can’t concentrate today and I already locked myself out of my house this morning so I kind of want to tell my boss why I am a complete shambles but I am concerned that would be oversharing. I work from home, which helps some (I reacted to a client getting mad at us by crying but at least no one could see!), but I’m just not very productive.

    UGH.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, Wendy, I’m sorry; that’s emotionally challenging even with a reasonably hopeful outlook.

      I think it depends on your relationship with your boss. Since you work from home, it sounds like you might not be the kind of regular oversharers where this would be a matter of course; what I might consider doing is waiting until Monday when you have a little more distance and know what you might want from the conversation.

    2. Nanc*

      I’m so sorry about your mom. This may be a case where you have to say something because it’s impacting your performance. I suggest a quick email or phone call with minimal info: Yesterday I received some very bad news about my mother’s health and I’m having a hard time dealing with it today. Here’s what I’m working on [list] and if possible, I would like to reschedule these things to next week.

      Hopefully your boss will understand and not ask too many questions. When you’ve had a chance to process, it might be worth meeting with boss if you’re going to have to take time to help out your mom and come up with a plan for making sure stuff gets done. If boss sees you’re being proactive and honest about how it’s impacting your productivity and how you’re planning to address that, it helps them support you.

      Good luck to your family.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      A lot of my team is remote, and I suspect that one of my team member’s semi-break down in a meeting may have included tears, so I’m waffling about whether I should reach out to her or not — it goes both ways. From a remote/work from home situation, I understand the difficulties. If you can, just be gentle with yourself today and do the simple tasks. See where your head is at on Monday and decide then if you should contact your boss.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        And I hit Submit early. I am sorry to hear about your mother. My friend’s dad recently went through a brain tumor scare with some very extensive surgery and to my knowledge is recovering well. It’s a lot to process though, so again, be gentle with yourself.

    4. Jennifer Thneed*

      Yes, say something, but not much. “Just want you to know that I got news today about a health crisis in my family and I’m pretty distracted as a result.” That’s all you need to say. You’re distracted, and it’s not your own health at risk. If they ask for details, just say you don’t know much yet (which is true).

    5. Jillociraptor*

      If you were my employee, I would want to know. You don’t have to share all of the details, just something like, “I got some bad personal news and I’m a little shaken up today. Just wanted you to let you know in case I seem off.” I would want to offer to let you take the afternoon off if you preferred, and would ask if there’s anything that would help you in this situation. I would hope that most managers would do the same.

      I’m very sorry for your news. I hope that your mom’s treatment is very successful!

  133. Being Anon Today*

    So, a colleague of mine, Sansa, was fired for incompetence and generally not getting her work done. I know for a fact, Sansa was also going through some pretty serious mental health issues at the time, but refused to request FMLA. In fact, I suggested it to her, but was told that she didn’t need FMLA. Even before the mental health crisis, Sansa was horrible about meeting deadlines or following through on commitments.

    It’s a small field and recently someone reached out to me about Sansa and asked what I thought “off the record”, because they are considering hiring her. This person is a friendly professional acquaintance, but not a close friend.

    Working with Sansa was awful, but I will never know how much of that was because of her mental health. As someone with my own mental health struggles, how do I be honest without killing Sansa’s chances of getting this new job?

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      This is tricky. I don’t think you can violate her privacy about her mental health, though. I think the best thing you can do is be truthful about how it was to work with her, and at the most maybe imply that you think there were some other factors at play that were affecting her. If they ask her about it, she can bring up the mental health thing herself.

    2. MicroManagered*

      “I don’t know all the details, but I am aware that Sansa was going through some personal issues during X period of time which would have negatively impacted the quality of her work. Outside of that timeframe, working with Sansa was [honest assessment here].”

    3. CatCat*

      This is tough. I get that you don’t want to negatively impact Sansa’s chances, but that’s a challenge given what you know; you certainly don’t want to harm your reputation by sugarcoating her performance. Can you just avoid answering the question if you aren’t comfortable responding? Either just don’t return the call/email, or say something like, “I’m actually uncomfortable commenting on Sansa’s work performance since I wasn’t her manager. Thanks for understanding.”

      If you feel like you do need to respond more substantively, I’d look at it this way: It was really on Sansa to resolve any issues like her past firing that might come up in the hiring process. I think you should take the view that Sansa reasonably explained her past performance problems and what she has done to ensure that won’t happen again, e.g., had challenges because of health issues that have since resolved, taken specific strategies to keep on top of her work, etc.

      So I’d respond honestly with that assumption. “Honestly, Sansa had problems meeting deadlines and following through with commitments in the past. I know she had some challenges in her personal life that may have impacted her performance back then. I can’t speak for her abilities now as Sansa and I have not worked together since then and have not been in touch.”

    4. irene adler*

      DO you really want to get involved with giving a reference? Off the record or not, what happens if she learns what you said sank her chances at getting the job?

  134. MassholeMarketer*

    Has anyone ever had a job offer come to them in an email rather than a phone call?

    I’ve been in the interview process with this company for what seems like forever and they just finished their last rounds of interviews yesterday. I’m crossing my fingers for good news but I’m just curious as to how it’ll come. I’ve had four interviews with them and have not technically spoken to anyone on the phone – all communication has been via email.

    1. Karo*

      My last job offer came via email, and then the hiring manager called within 5 minutes to discuss it. So it was sort of both?

    2. fposte*

      All our offers are via email. I don’t speak to anybody on the phone in the job process. I hardly speak to anybody on the phone at work at all.

  135. Mavis*

    Hey everyone!

    Does Alison still do resume work?

    I can’t find anything about it here or on her LinkedIn.

    1. Karo*

      She’ll sometimes run promotions where she’ll review resumes for about $100, but they fill up really fast and she has to fit it in around the rest of her stuff.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I used to offer it for a few days once a year or so, but haven’t in a few years — my schedule hasn’t permitted it in a while, unfortunately.

      1. Phryne Fisher*

        I bought a resume review back in 2015 and haven’t used it yet. It’s still valid, right? haha. Now I feel silly.

      2. Mavis*

        Thanks for letting me know.

        I’ll try to revamp based on the tips here. I’m aiming to jump 2 levels in my job search and know I really need to show why that’s reasonable with my resume.

        If there are any reputable resume coaching/editing resources anyone can share, I’m listening!

  136. EvilQueenRegina*

    So I have had the Stationery Wars in my office for the last month.

    Ruby is an admin, Violet is an apprentice, one of her duties is to get the mail, the Stationery for the entire building is in the mail room and we have a cupboard for our department.

    Basically a silent dispute involving notes has been going on. Ruby will write a note saying “Stationery that we need: envelopes “. Violet objects to being communicated with like that instead of Ruby either asking her properly or getting it herself, and makes a big point of ignoring the notes.

    The first time, Ruby eventually asked for some after a week. The second time it was a silent dispute for two weeks and eventually the note was thrown out. The latest time, Ruby tried wording it more politely and added a please, but the note still went in the bin.

    Meanwhile I am wondering where are all the adults. Has anyone ever had such a silly dispute as this?

    1. Delta Delta*

      I have one!

      Former co-worker, Sigma, and former assistant, Epsilon, did NOT get along. Epsilon got word from on high that too much printing was being done on medium-weight paper. It’s expensive, only use it for projects X, Y, Z. Epsilon sent email to staff indicating as much, but omitted that Alpha (boss) gave the directive. Sigma decided she would continue to use said paper for Project W, because screw Epsilon and her dumb rules. Emails continue about this for weeks. One day Epsilon gets interrupted in the middle of a huge Project Y copying job, and inadvertently leaves a ream of medium-weight paper in the printer. Sigma sends a huge print job that comes out on said paper.

      Epsilon sends email about not using the paper. Sigma sends increasingly nasty response about not leaving the paper in the tray. These emails ramp up in nastiness and volume, and circulate though the entire team for THREE DAYS (there was significant and copious bcc’ing on both sides so basically everyone saw). Alpha finally tells them to stop. Sigma demands Epsilon’s paycheck be docked the price of a ream of special paper. Alpha refuses, and tells Epsilon & Sigma to have a cup of tea and work out their differences. Epsilon screams, “I never thought I’d have to quit over a ream of paper!” and storms out of the building.

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        Epsilon screwed up by leaving the paper in the hopper, and then didn’t have the spine to accept responsibility. No great loss in their leaving.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      Ruby needs to fire Violet. Today. Then she needs to find an apprentice that doesn’t want to dictate the details of how stationary is requested. Fire her today.

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        Ruby isn’t Violet’s manager and has no authority to fire her. Plus we are in the UK so it isn’t as easy to do that. It is probably time our actual manager stepped in though.

  137. KX*

    I am employed and I am job searching outside the company.

    1. A job I applied to never got back to me, but the company added my email to their marketing list! It is appalling. But in a pearl-clutching amusing way. It was not a job I cared that much about.

    2. I job I did want emailed me before Memorial Day to ask my availability for a phone interview. I replied that day. And then… followed up with my new availability a full week later. I haven’t heard from them since. It would be a 45-minute commute so I am going to let the mystery unfold without following up further, but honestly!

    1. ginkgo*

      I’ve had the phone interview thing happen to me three separate times since April!

      The first time, after I followed up I think a third time, she was like “Oh I’m so sorry, your email must have gone to my spam folder!” and we set up the interview. But then on the phone she said something like “Yeah, you know sometimes I open an email but then something else comes up and I forget about it…” I actually have “WTF” written in my notes from that interview haha because really, WTF?

      The second time, the recruiter apparently was out sick for several days, which is totally legitimate and I felt bad for him. But then after we finally had the phone interview, he ghosted me.

      The third time, the recruiter actually proposed a specific time (as in “Are you available for a phone call on Friday at 3pm?”) and I said yes, this is my number, looking forward to talking. No call, no email. I didn’t follow up, because in the time between scheduling and when we were supposed to have the interview, I’d googled the company and found it on the “2018 Retailer Death Watch.” Two weeks later I got an email from her saying “I’m so sorry, I must have missed this email!” … I declined to set up another phone interview.

      All three were internal recruiters. I don’t know, man.

        1. Hellanon*

          I need to tell you I love this phrase & will be looking for an opportunity to use it at work.

    2. Julianne (also a teacher)*

      #1 has happened to me…except I’m a teacher, and it was a school, and one of the announcements in the “Friends of [School]” newsletter they subscribed me to was the joyful announcement about who they had hired for the job I interviewed for! I was like, cool, glad you’re so thrilled about hiring Ms. So-and-so, I guess I can take a hint!

  138. Wombat*

    Any advice on how to survive a toxic workplace/burnout?
    I am searching but its going very slow and I’m not sure I can take much more.My current fantasy is getting a part time job waiting tables for a few months to detox or just having a breakdown and hiding out in a hospital somewhere.

    1. gecko*

      :(

      Can you get money together to live on waiting tables for a few months? If you’re on the verge of a breakdown that you feel would require an inpatient stay then things have gotten extreme. And it’s worth waiting tables to protect yourself from what sounds like a horrible situation.

    2. nep*

      Would you be able to get by, leaving toxic job and waiting tables while you look? (I know–big unknown, how long it will take to land something.) If you could get by, I say go for it.
      All the best. May something come through for you soon.

    3. BRR*

      I asked a very similar question once, can you recover from burnout at the job that burned you out. The answers were all no. Mediation has helped me somewhat. Good luck!

  139. PSA on thank you notes*

    I’m hiring an MBA intern. I interviewed about 8 students, all halfway through their program.

    6/8 never sent any kind of f/up email/thank you.

    One sent a fairly generic “thank you so much for your time, I’m definately interested blah blah” and the other had a very thoughtful and engaging follow up note.

    I wrote off all 6 of those that didn’t follow up. We ended up picking the one with the stellar thank-you, but only because it was yet another sign of her overall interest and good fit for the program. The other candidate also left a great impression.

    So, I implore you: send a thank you note. It doesn’t have to be much. I typically hire for much more senior roles (I’m a VP with a team of ~25 and often also interview director/VP/SVP candidates) and i really do notice when you send one. Even if only to say “yup, this person is at least aware of business norms enough to drop me a quick note thanking me for my time.” It will never count against you, and if you interview with me, it will be a box you should check.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Wow, did you discard excellent candidates that didn’t write a note in favor of ones that seemed less qualified who did? It’s totally up to you of course, but I wouldn’t hold the thank you note thing to that high a standard. It’s a nice convention but many people don’t put much stock in it.

      1. OP*

        These are all interns. Nobody is really “qualified.” The main qualification here is interest/enthusiasm.

        I had 2 less qualified people that I talked about maybe having an opportunity for a different sort of intern- think someone with a way more technical background than the current role warrants and no industry knowledge but we actually have technical needs too and might make a paid internship for the right candidate- and would certainly expect some sort of email follow up “definately interested if XYZ role ends up opening up!”

        1. McWhadden*

          They are MBA candidates. They should absolutely have qualifications at this point in their life that should matter a lot more than a silly note.

    2. MicroManagered*

      Wait… so are you saying you went with an inferior candidate based on a good thank you note, though?

      1. fposte*

        It sounds like the opposite–that this person was already a strong candidate. I think it’s a bit of a Draconian approach myself, but there’s no indication here that it upended the rankings.

        1. OP*

          But- why *wouldnt* you (the candidate) send a quick thank-you? Maybe that’s what irks me. It’s not hard, every career center tells you to do it. Just do it! Don’t belabor it.

          “So nice meeting you and learning more about the role. I look forward to hearing from you re: next steps as appropriate.” Sent.

          1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

            Because thank-you notes aren’t part of their culture generally. Because no one told them to send them after an interview. Because they think thank-you notes are BS. Who knows?

            Given the career center advice we’ve seen talked about on this blog, I have a hard time believing that every career center tells every student who comes to them to send a thank-you note after an interview.

            1. OP*

              I don’t buy that. Talk to any MBA student at a top school. They’re told to follow up with interest.

              Perhaps too this is just an indicator- I don’t want to hire the kind of person that won’t follow up with clients or other internal people after a conversation/meeting.

              And I’m posting this because *if you are reading this site* and applying for things, I’m encouraging you to spend the 5 minutes it takes to do a quick f/up.

              Would I pass on a dream candidate because they didn’t email me? No. But I’ve done a lot of hiring over the years and I can absolutely tell you they are correlated. A candidate walks out and I have a great feeling about them. Next day I see a quick thank-you.

              And, to be clear, sending ONE note to the hiring manager is fine, even if younmet several others. You can just say “I enjoyed meeting B,C and D as well.” Or “please pass along my interest to B and C as I do not have their emails.”

              1. Camellia*

                This strikes me a bit like “I’m the employer, I hold all the cards, you must be grateful that I graced you with my time and presence and deigned to interview you.”

                Now, I’ve exaggerated that, obviously, but put the shoe on the other foot for a moment – that person devoted just as much time to the process as you did. No, wait, maybe even MORE time, for preparation, travel to and from, and so forth. Why didn’t YOU send THEM a thank-you note for doing all of that and for coming to the interview? Does the thought of that feel weird to you? If so, why?

                1. OP*

                  It’s not a feeling of “you must thank me for my time,” it’s a desire to have the candidate reiterate interest.

                  For a stellar candidate, I’d absolutely shoot a note out (whether or not they’d sent one) saying so great to meet you/let me know if there’s anything else I can answer for you/really enjoyed our convo etc. to reiterate my OWN interest in the candidate.

              2. Super stressed*

                How certain are you that candidates are told to send thank you notes? I just completed my MBA, admittedly not from a top school, and this was not mentioned once. I’m not sure if it was mentioned by my career center in undergrad, either.
                It didn’t even occur to me to as something that I should do until I started reading this site; I thought that, if the manager said I’d hear from them by X date, I should sit still and wait for them to reach out.
                I realize that’s why you’re posting this, but I also think you’re making some assumptions about what MBA students are told.

                1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

                  I agree with Super Stressed. To be fair, I don’t have an MBA but I went to a top school for undergrad. I was a regular in their career center, and never heard mention of thank you notes there. The only reason I ever sent them out was because my dad constantly reminded me to and drilled the idea into my head that they were absolutely necessary. I feel like you shouldn’t operate on the assumption that just because somebody is in the middle of getting their MBA means that they should know about the effect of a thank you note.

                2. ..Kat..*

                  Well, a thank you note after the interview is a sign of interest. Shame on your career center for not teaching you this. And I say this as a graduate of a prestigious MBA school.

            2. Lil Fidget*

              Yeah I guess OP is saying they’re confident that these students are getting this advice in their program, so that’s probably a different circumstance, whereas when I’m just hiring young people generally I feel like there’s a good chance the ones that sent a followup were told to do it by their moms and the ones that didn’t, nobody told – rather than believing the ones who did were more genuinely gracious. But if you know all the students receive the same advice and some follow it some don’t, that does ameliorate my objection somewhat.

              Sidenote: I only just learned this year (and I’m 30!) that people are also apparently sending follow up thank you notes even just to short initial phone screens.

              1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

                Ugh. I can see a follow-up after an in-person interview, but after a phone interview? That’s just inbox clutter.

                1. Lil Fidget*

                  Also how thankful am I for your ten to fifteen minutes tops?? Haha I’m working on it.

          2. fposte*

            Because not every career center does tell you to do it, it’s no secret that career centers tell people a lot of bad things too, and “it’s not that hard” also applies to a lot of things that sound good that I don’t want them to do.

            If you’re dealing with a particular pool of intern candidates where this is established knowledge, then I can see factoring that in along with cover letter and resume style, interview clothing, etc. But if you’re drawing more broadly and we’re talking something as entry level as interns, I’d be inclined to have a much more fluid approach to intern selection. It can be really worthwhile to polish up a young person who has a lot of drive and potential but didn’t get exposed to the right career center, for instance.

            I mean, there’s a lot to be said for quantifying hiring; it does tend to help reduce bias. But unless we’re talking an industry where this is known and de rigueur and interns who are MBAs and not just BAs, I don’t think this is that useful as a single-point dealbreaker.

            1. OP*

              It’s also not just this intern role. As I said, I’ve hired a lot of people across the senority spectrum.

              I actually just called the MBA program where I’ve interviewed 3 candidates and asked about the thank you note/ follow up (doesn’t have to be an email, just some kind of f/up). They were adamant it’s in all their materials/presentations.

              And for professionals- well, that can just self-select. If you don’t think it warrants following up with me or my team after interviewing, we’ll factor that into the decision. It’s probably not a good fit for the role on both ends if you don’t see it as a de-facto but other candidates do.

              I absolutely understand this sounds…draconian? But my point here is that to some, this concept matters, so if you are reading, consider that some people may feel strongly. And it takes 5 minutes.

              1. fposte*

                As I said, if you’re sure it’s known in the pool you’re hiring from, that’s fine (though I don’t get what other kinds of followups the programs are telling people might be okay). It’s definitely not in mine, and it would be a mistake for me to make that a dividing line. I think that’s true in a lot of places.

                As it happens, I agree with you that it is, at least in the US, such an easy way to add value that I hugely recommend it, and I think well of candidates that do that. But it wouldn’t work as a sine qua non.

              2. foolofgrace*

                If you’re going to put so much store in a thank-you note, you’d better damn sure be handing out your email address. I can’t tell you how many in-person interviews I’ve been on where this was neglected. And as for phone interviews, it’s even harder to send a thank-you because you never get their email.

    3. LovecraftInDC*

      A thank you note is really only indicative of one thing: that they know to send a thank you note. I would be worried about reading too much into it, particularly in terms of enthusiasm and interest. I graduated from a great undergrad and a fairly good MBA program, and I never got the ‘send a thank you note’ information until I started reading AAM, nor was it ever commented on to me or by me when doing hiring.

      I think it might be worth revisiting your interview process and seeing if you’ve got the right questions to gauge enthusiasm and interest, because meeting somebody in person is going to give you a much better idea than just whether or not they know to follow a particular business norm.

      1. OP*

        But it indicated behavior in roles where follow up is appropriate. Less so in an intern role and so much moreso for a more senior person.

        I am also the kind of exec that gets annoyed when people don’t reply to my emails (that ask a question). And I expect my staff to follow up after meetings, both internal and client facing.

        Once more, this isn’t about “should I use this as criteria,” but rather “heads up, this things that some people don’t do even though they should know better (forget interns for a second- if you are interviewing to be an account manager, you must know how to follow up with people) can impact their candidacy.”

        My husband, for example, knows thank you notes are a thing to do. He just doesn’t do them. This message is for him and others like him.

  140. Power Lloyd*

    I’ve got an interview next week for a creative position at a creative agency. My first, phone interview went great, but their recent Glassdoor reviews imply a certain amount of dysfunction.
    I talked to a friend of mine who knows a little more backchannel talk in town, and they mentioned they’ve heard there’s new creative leadership — and that that leadership is sexist.
    Their agency blog has blog posts up from within the last two years that are explicitly feminist, but they’re no longer bylined so I was already wondering if the authors were no longer at the agency.
    My question: How can I figure out if there’s a sexist culture at play? That would be a dealbreaker for me, a cis white guy — so I’m not likely to get direct signals that a woman might pick up on in the interview. I also know that asking “hey, are you sexist” isn’t going to get me the answers I’d like. Should I ask more about their explicit feminist statements from the recent past? Just trust the backchannel?
    Would love suggestions on feeling that out.

    1. gecko*

      Trust the backchannel. Ask your friend a little bit more, but this is how news gets spread.

      You could also go into the office and take a quick estimate of gender numbers, making sure to do private counts instead of saying “seems equal”–you might find out the split seems to be 50/50 but is in fact 70/30 or worse. Look at upper management demographics. Look at how they interview you–are any women interviewing you? Are you getting lowkey invites into a boys club type of interaction with your interviewer?

      But mainly–trust the backchannel.

      1. KayEss*

        In a creative agency environment, particularly if it’s an agency that does digital and web coding work, pay special attention to the gender split across different areas of the business–is it 50/50 in the creative and production positions, or are women mostly in account manager/sales and internal HR roles? I declined to interview at a small digital agency in part because a close examination of their website showed that not only were they about 70/30 at best, but all of the women were account managers and all the designers and developers were men.

      2. Power Lloyd*

        To be super clear, I do trust the backchannel, but the friend I was talking to had heard this all secondhand. She said to go in with eyes wide open, but did not have specific incidents or details that she knew of.
        Will definitely pay more attention than usual to the gender numbers across the department and the business.

    2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      It’s really, really easy to say feminist things and not act in a feminist manner. The blog posts might not mean much.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        That being said (and I’m female) I don’t know if you could really avoid workplaces that were not misogynist on some level – we do live in a patriarchal culture right now. I don’t require male allies to never work again, personally. You can morally also choose to take the job if you don’t see any overt signs of misogyny and resolve to do whatever you can once you’re inside to improve the situation, and that’s still being a good ally in my book.

    3. yet another Kat*

      Depending on the level of comfort in following interviews I’d ask/follow up on questions about changes in the leadership, why your current position is open, etc (in the context of team culture/growth/company vision type questions). Sometimes, you can get clues about sexist stuff that way.

  141. RR*

    Rant rant rant! My boss and his underling seem to be doubling down on making bad decisions that long term are going to affect us, and its just so frustrating. Other people on the team have checked out and dont even bother trying to resolve some of these things, they just focus on the parts of their job they can do and dont bother with the rest. I’m getting very tempted to do the same.

    So annoying because they are all nice people but just…seem unable to see the giant warning signs in front of them.

    Sometimes it sucks caring about your job :/

    1. Clarice Fitzpatrick*

      I’m sorry about that. It really sucks when your workplace is being poisoned by bad decisions from a few higher ups.

  142. Different Handle Than Usual*

    Very long story short: I may have to sue my company’s accountant, and by association (?) my company, due to them screwing up my taxes and then screwing up not fixing things.

    I feel awful. This sucks.

      1. Different Handle Than Usual*

        They filed two 1099 forms. I’m a contractor for a few hours a week. The IRS now thinks I had two identical incomes for that year. They in turn told the SSA and the disability I was collecting has been cut off because I “made too much money.” Now the IRS is demanding $10k for back taxes and fees on income I never received, and the SSA is demanding $10k to recover the disability payments they paid while I had two salaries, which I didn’t. And now my income is under the poverty level because I cannot work full time because I am disabled, so I’m living on my tiny salary.

        The company accountant was notified and asked to fix this last November. He keeps disappearing for months and then filing the wrong paperwork.

    2. Payroll*

      If you’re looking to sue because they underwithheld taxes from your paycheck, that’s not likely to get very far. You’re ultimately responsible for reviewing your check stub and informing someone if it’s incorrect (you’re being paid too much, you’re not seeing a tax you know you will owe coming out of your check, etc.).

      1. De Minimis*

        It would be the company that would be sued [I mean, you can sue anyone, but there would be more of a legitimate case against the company.] The accountant would not normally be liable for actions performed as part of the scope of employment.

      2. Boredatwork*

        +1 you are actually required to make estimated payments if you know your taxes are not withheld correctly to avoid penalties.

        1. De Minimis*

          I could possibly see something coming of it if it’s a case where the company withheld the tax and didn’t send the funds to the taxing authority. But in that case they’d need to be reported to the taxing authority…

      3. Different Handle Than Usual*

        No, that’s not the issue. I explained above; they reported me as having two incomes.

        1. Jaid_Diah*

          *ahem* Sooo, payers actually send the 1099 info to Social Security and in turn, they send it to the IRS.

          The IRS Manual for the Automated Underreporter Program. They probably are the ones looking into the issue
          https://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/irm_04-019-003r#idm140392902378912

          Comparison of IRP Information Returns With Return Information
          “If a 99MIS IR has two identical money amounts (e.g., NEC is $500 and MED is $500) and the TP reports one of the amounts, ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ≡ ”

          If the letter you got was a CP2000 or 2501 and call and ask about that blanked out part there.
          Now, if the two 1099’s have different EIN’s/Company names, I can see why they sent out a notice. But if it’s identical… Sigh.

          By the way, a CP2000 isn’t a bill, it’s a proposed assessment. It is based on a comparison of figures reported on the tax return with the documents submitted by various payers of income. A CP 2501 is pretty much the same thing.

          The AUR phone number is 1-800-829-8310.

          I know it’s scary and I hope your payroll gets fined for their screw-up.

          1. Different Handle Than Usual*

            I’m past the CP2000. The taxes have already been assessed based on the two 1099s. They are identical.

            I cannot say more for fear the company will see this.

            While I get that people here want to be helpful, I really wish folks wouldn’t jump to conclusions.

            1. Jaid_Diah*

              I’m sorry I couldn’t help you. I offer you my sympathies.

              Maybe Taxpayer Advocate could help…

              1. Different Handle Than Usual*

                Thank you for trying. The IRS has assigned an advocate, who said the IRS wants this fixed two months ago and I’m screwed.

                1. Jaid_Diah*

                  OK, I talked to one of my friends in AUR and she said that if the 1099’s are completely identical, one of them should have been disregarded from the start. She advised me to tell you to call back to get your case reopened. If the payroll person is MIA, you can still get your employer to send in a letter on letterhead that a mistake was made and to please disregard the erroneous duplicate 1099-R. It doesn’t have to be the payroll person if he’s MIA. It can probably be faxed in.
                  If this doesn’t work, (G-d forbid), then try Appeals.
                  https://www.irs.gov/compliance/appeals/preparing-a-request-for-appeals

                  I sincerely hope this is resolved to your benefit.

  143. Mimmy*

    Dear Director,

    When you want to thank the staff for hard work with donuts, you might want to make sure that there’s enough for everybody! I’ve never counted exactly how many staff we have, but I’m pretty sure it’s well more than 6!

    Love,
    Mimmy (who hopes to g8d this director doesn’t read AAM!)

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Yep this is my office. They bring one box of donuts for 100 people, and they send out an email about 20 minutes after the box is set out. The only people who actually get donuts are the people who sit right next to the kitchen, and the rest of us (on another floor) just get the pleasure of finding out there were donuts, and we didn’t get any.

      I console myself by thinking I might be losing weight under this scheme, as I have no self control when it comes to office treats.

  144. Ow, ow, ow*

    I have a chronic illness I’ve been dealing with for a few years now that causes pain and fatigue. I’ve largely learned how to cope with it, how to avoid major triggers for it, etc. And my boss and company are very flexible and understanding; they let me work from home when I’m having a bad day or come in late and make up the time. Recently I seem to have developed some new symptoms, including severe daily migraines for the last month, and some more gastrointestinal issues. I’ve been trying several things with my doctors… coming off some meds, starting new meds, and all of it is really exhausting and painful and I’ve been missing a lot of work. Again, I’m incredibly fortunate because my boss is forgiving and understands what I have going on. So I guess the real problem is that I feel so, so incredibly guilty about all of this, and I’m really struggling emotionally with not being able to keep up the way that I normally do. I worry what my other colleagues think who aren’t aware of my medical situation. I feel like I SHOULDN’T be having these problems, though I know intellectually it is what it is and I don’t have a choice. I’m paranoid about falling behind or having subpar performance, as I’m the only one who does what I do here. I’m also struggling simply to make it in on the days that I do because frankly this all has me more than a little bit depressed and all I want to do is sleep.

    I don’t know if there’s any advice that can help, but getting it off my chest makes me feel a little better. Thanks for listening, y’all.

    1. Batshua*

      You are doing all the right things.

      Apply for intermittent FMLA if you can.

      Keep taking care of yourself.

      Try to be patient, even though it’s hard.

      It’s okay to take a break from trying to fix your medical issues if you’re exhausted. You don’t ALWAYS need to be handling ALL of them by trying a new drug, or elimination diet, or meditation, or whatever.

      Be gentle with yourself.

      2. Ow, ow, ow*

        FMLA would be an option except that I am the primary breadwinner and really need every penny. My partner is doing gig work while looking for something full time so maybe once he finds something I can take some extended recuperative leave.

        1. Batshua*

          You can use FMLA to take sick leave while protecting your job. This is useful if:

          You have a lot of appointments to go to.
          You have a really bad day and need to go home sick.

          1. Batshua*

            I’m freaking out that I wasn’t clear.

            Most people think FMLA is exclusively for unpaid medical leave. You can use your paid sick leave under FMLA as well. The FMLA part there protects your job and means they can’t keep you from going to your medical appointments or taking time off because you’re sick.

            1. Ow, ow, ow*

              Oh, that makes a lot of sense! I didn’t realize that. Thank you for elaborating.

              1. Batshua*

                Sure! I just learned this because I started using FMLA for intensive depression treatment (TMS). The protocol is 5x a week for 6 weeks and then 2x a week for 3 more weeks. I’m the only person who does my job in my department, so if I’m not around, we have to pull someone from another location or a provider has to cover the front desk instead. I got lucky and almost all of my appointments ended up being booked for post-shift, but my boss basically told me to file for FMLA to protect my job and my ability to get treatments consistently.

    2. SpaceNovice*

      I’ve heard that there’s Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for both chronic pain management and migraines now that can be done in conjunction with medications. I don’t know much about either of the treatments, but the studies show a lot of promise. (Basically, ours brains are powerful!) You may want to look into that as part of your treatment.

      Other than that advice, I don’t have anything more I can really add other than I’m glad you’ve got a supportive boss. I had to deal with chronic fatigue for a while and it sucked. Having a supportive boss really helped. Good luck!

    3. ..Kat..*

      I’m sorry that you have to deal with this. As a nurse, I know that there are pain clinics and pain centers that use a multifaceted approach to deal with chronic pain. I am amazed at the results that I see them achieve. Perhaps there is one near you. I hope that you can find some relief.

  145. Albatross*

    What do mentors hope to gain by mentoring someone?

    I’m wondering because I currently have an amazing mentor who used to be my manager at a work study job. She’s given me so much work-related advice and has been very generous with her time lately. Besides being considerate of her time and keeping her updated about my progress, how else can a recent grad give back to the relationship? I have already written her a nice thank-you card.

    Would love suggestions from the mentors out there about things that you appreciate your mentees have done.

    1. CatCat*

      “What do mentors hope to gain by mentoring someone?”

      For me, the satisfaction of helping someone just starting out and watching them grow. I’ve had some kind mentors in my life and appreciate the opportunity to pay it forward when I can.

      I think a thoughtful thank you card is lovely and would not expect anything more.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, yes, absolutely–I don’t mean don’t thank people. But the overall reward isn’t something that flows back to the mentor.

    3. SpaceNovice*

      There’s nothing that replaces the feeling when you help someone “get it”. It’s really cool to watch people grow. Their confidence can skyrocket over time. So fuzzy feelings that goes with being nice. Some people just like teaching others, too.

      People also do it because they wish they could have had that same advice, or as paying it forward from getting that advice from a mentor of their own. Apprenticeship works well in a lot of industries. It also makes the industry healthier at large as more and more people know how to do things properly. Why let someone fret over something you can help them figure out in a fraction of a time than it would if they were doing it by themselves?

      1. SpaceNovice*

        Oh and as to how to thank your mentor: thank her. The card is a good start. Make sure to put her advice into practice and demonstrate your growth. Later on, when the time is right, pay it forward. You’re a great mentee!

    4. HannahS*

      In addition to what others are saying, it can also be about wanting to change the field–sometimes people choose to mentor people from underrepresented populations, for example, or pass on knowledge/values that they think are under-prioritized. Cards are nice. Paying it forward is nice. I think being a good mentee is consists of being punctual and organized in meeting with one’s mentor, asking questions that show thoughtfulness, and expressing appreciation. I don’t think it’s necessary to do more, in most situations.

    5. CM*

      Keep in touch long-term. That’s the thing I value most about mentoring relationships — I do it because I like to share what I’ve learned in the hopes that it will help somebody. But I find that most of these relationships last a short time — once the person gets the job or whatever, they don’t bother to keep in touch. I really appreciate it when somebody I’ve mentored reaches out without an ulterior motive, just to let me know how they’re doing or ask to catch up.

    6. OtterB*

      You don’t need to do this directly – it sort of comes with the territory – but mentors can also gain by keeping up with what’s new in a field, seeing what current students are learning, getting their take on situations, etc.

    7. As a frequent mentor*

      As a frequent mentor, I do it because I had fantastic mentors when I was just starting out, and I’m paying it forward. I’m fine with that being the total reward, but from mentees, thanks are nice, looping back (even long time later) with “remember when you taught me X, well today I really needed that, and here’s the fantastic result” are great feedback (doubly true if the mentee resisted/had trouble learning/didn’t believe X). Seeing my efforts amplified through a mentee’s great work is pretty rewarding too – I’m thinking of a time when I took one of my mentees aside for a 15 minute conversation, then passed him the ball and oh man oh man oh man did he run with it! I’m grinning just thinking about it. I love to watch them succeed.

      Also, I get a lot less enjoyment from mentoring people who think it’s a therapy session where they can cry to me about all their troubles and complaints, but never seem to take any of the actions I suggest to remedy whatever the problem is. Not that I expect them to be drinking up every drop of wisdom I dribble out like a dying man in a desert or anything, but just being a vent for someone is not what the relationship is about.

    8. Jillociraptor*

      This probably speaks to my psychology more than anything :) but it just feels good to know stuff and be able to help people! I have most appreciated it when mentees have mentioned how my advice has helped them (especially further down the line), and when they continue to care about my perspective as their careers grow. I just had a great conversation with a former employee this week where he just wanted to pick my brain about his new project. It was really validating that he still thought of me and trusted my perspective even though we hadn’t worked together in several years. Obviously doing this while respecting your manager’s time is key, but I bet she will appreciate hearing how her advice is continuing to help you and that you really value her input and expertise.

  146. misschanandlerbong*

    Can someone explain the difference between exempt and non-exempt? I’ve read many different explanations, but honestly I still have trouble really understanding it.

    1. fposte*

      “Non-exempt” means the provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act apply to you. Most significantly it means you’re entitled to overtime if you work over 40 hours in a week, but there are other ones (like your right to pump at work is protected). This is the default. It would be legal to treat every employee in the country as non-exempt.

      “Exempt” means your job falls into one of the categories or industries where you’re not covered by the FLSA. There are a lot of those, and while with some industries it’s hard and fast, with others whether you could be exempt or not will depend on how much you get paid, what education you’ve had, and what you actually do, because there is always the pull of gravity back toward non-exemption. The hope is, roughly, that the less education you’ve had, the less power you have, the less money you make, the more the law protects you.

      1. Tau*

        The frightening thing is that I knew most of that due to reading Alison’s blog for so long, and I’m not even in the US.

        (In contrast, I know next to nothing about German overtime laws. Oops.)

    3. SoCalHR*

      You are one step ahead of most people simply because you asked the question the way you did and didn’t say “what the difference between hourly and salaried?” (which people ask when most of the time they really mean exempt and non-exempt).

  147. AnonForThis*

    I know I’m getting here a little late, I may repost next week. I recently got a big promotion, and I’ll be managing my former team of four. It’s been a couple of days since the promotion was announced to the group.

    My issue is that it’s become very apparent that the other person who applied for my job is upset that she didn’t get it. I’m already pretty nervous to start ‘managing’, and her responses to my few requests have been very short or blunt. There have been a couple of projects we’ve discussed taking on together in the past that were blocked by my former manager. Now that I’m in the position I asked her if she wanted to start putting together a proposal for one of the projects. Her only response was “If you want me to.” I basically said “I know it’s something you’ve wanted to do for a while, so if you have time to fit it in, I think it’d be great for the department.” She just replied with “Ok.”

    She had reasons to not expect that she would get the job. Managing the team involves explaining things we do to the rest of the organization. I’ve been a Teapot Maker before, before I came over to Teapot Maker IT, so I can explain things well, and I understand their needs. She’s only done IT in the past. Additionally, our former manager had been open with me (and unfortunately with her) that I was her intended replacement. We openly talked from the time our manager gave notice to the time that we had our actual interviews, about things we’d like to do, challenges we’d see the team having. She mentioned a couple of times that she expected me to get it.

    I guess my question is, how long should I let her deal with her feelings here. I know that if it had been me, I would have had a rough couple few days. I think there is a good chance she is going to leave soon; she had been discussing it with me prior.

    I’d love any tips people have for managing a team you previously worked on, as well as any suggestions on whether I should address the newfound shortness in replies or whether I should just suck it up and start assigning her work. I was hoping that, at least on these things where we both agreed should have been priorities under the former manager, that she’d be excited to start on them.

    1. Catwoman*

      I think a lot of this depends on your rapport with this employee (I’ll call her Sandra.) and her personality. If you feel like you have a close enough relationahip to do this, I would suggest acknowledging the elephant in the room and then directing the conversation to her strengths and how you can both help each other succeed in your roles. Maybe something like, “Sandra, I’m sure you are disappointed that you didn’t get this management position because I know I would be in your shoes. I get that it’s hard right now, but I want us to be on the same team moving forward. I could really use your expertise in 3-D teapot handle printing to get this new priority off the ground that we talked about when Sedrick was manager. We talked about some other challenges this team has during the interview process and I think you were right about X Y and Z. Do I have your support in addressing some of these?”
      I think it’s important to be clear that you understand and respect her disappointment and can give her some space for those feelings, but that you also value her strengths and contributions and that you have respect for her. You can also ask her about what you can do to help her grow her career and move forward from this.

    2. Kathenus*

      I’ve been in this situation. If the responses/interactions are just short/curt but not over the line, then I’d give her a little space to deal with the situation in her own head. I decided to wait a few weeks to see if things moderated, and if they didn’t, then I would have an upfront conversation on what I needed from her communication/cooperation-wise. In this case she gradually improved and I never had to have the conversation.

      But I have been in situations where there had to be a more direct conversation about whether or not the person wanted and could successfully perform the position they were in within the new structure.

      From your description, I’d give her a couple weeks or so and then re-evaluate.

      One thing to be careful of is treating her differently in the future because she didn’t get the job. I had a direct report mention to me that they were hesitant sometimes to coach or counsel one employee because they had been up for their job. We discussed that she should focus on taking that out of it completely, and treat her the same way as she would another employee who had not applied for the job. She later said that perspective helped her role play a bit in her own head first to see if she was being consistent or letting that past situation affect her management.

      Best of luck, never an easy situation from either end, and I’ve been in both.

  148. Uranus wars*

    I might have go in too late, but I just taught a training class and had someone scrolling & typing on Facebook the entire time on their phone. Yesterday’s thread prompted this post.

    I use to ask people to silence their phones since there’s a lot of information to cover in just an hour. This sounds crazy controlling but we had multiple people who would play games with the noise on during the training or actually answer the phone while the speaker was talking during meetings (no lie, I’ve seen them do it to the CEO). The preemptive strike cut down on phone usage a lot so I never thought more of it until yesterday.

    So i didn’t make that ask today. At all. And then Facebook lady. I do realize today was a required training that they likely didn’t want to be in…but there were only 6 people in the room and I couldn’t stop being distracted by her typing/smiling/nodding at the screen and making no effort to hide that it was Facebook. I think if it had been my normal group of 25-40 I wouldn’t have gotten so thrown off by it, but in such a small group and with her being just a few feet away it just continually distracted me for the entire hour. Like a train wreck.

    I guess my question for those of you who present regularly, how have you trained yourself to tune this behavior out. If she really feels the training was a waste/she didn’t need it I don’t want to be unrealistic in my expectations, but I also don’t want to get distracted.

    Any help would be appreciated!

    1. The New Wanderer*

      This is why I wish there were required tests after all training, so that there would be SOME repercussions to deciding to just blow off a required meeting in person. (My company did this, but our training was 99% online and not hosted by a live presenter, and you could opt out of the training module entirely if you took the quiz first and passed.)

      Personally I would go back to requesting that people put their phones away and pay attention to the material being presented. If someone doesn’t, I would call them out on it or invite them to leave, professor-style. Better to have a minute of awkwardness than have it throw you off the entire time.

    2. Luna*

      You shouldn’t have to tune it out, ask her to stop! Her behavior was really rude. If she thinks the training is a waste of her time that is something she needs to talk to her manager about. If you were being distracted by her behavior it’s likely other attendees were distracted too, and unlike Facebook lady some of them might have wanted to learn the material.

    3. LCL*

      We have been empowered and specifically trained to tell people to turn off their devices during classes/meetings/etc. Of course turn off doesn’t mean incommunicado, it means keep your phone on silent, don’t pick it up, and if you get that urgent call remove yourself from the room to handle it.

    4. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I suggest that you ask her to put away her phone. Then, if she refuses to comply with that request, I would ask her to leave. The other members of the class would probably appreciate this. I know I would.

  149. Future Librarian*

    Calling AAM Librarians!

    I am starting the MLIS program at UW Seattle this fall and was hoping to solicit some career advice from others in the field. How can I make myself a competitive librarian candidate if I’ve never worked in a library before?

    To give some background, I am a mid-career changer with about 15 years working as a copywriter & social media strategist doing marketing for tech companies. I am looking to move out of marketing and into programming and collections development in the greater Seattle area.

    I’m open to any and all feedback about being a librarian–good or bad! Thank you.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Volunteer. Internships. Anything you can do to get experience. You have to have experience.

      Not to freak you out, but the last open entry level job we have at my library there were 97 candidates with MLIS degrees. The ones without library experience didn’t pass the first pass, because we had so many people who did. I’m sure some of them were great folks, but… 97 applicants.

      Also, any place that has a library school is going to be ever harder to find a library job in. More people are graduating with library degrees than jobs are opening up, so be prepared that you may need to move.

      1. An Archivist*

        This, a million times over. I have a Ph.D. in a tangentially related discipline. I needed 4 unpaid internships to get a part-time job that led to a part-time professional librarian job that led to a full-time librarian position. Get that experience any way you can.

      2. PB*

        This, this, this. Library school is an introduction, but work experience is where you apply it. When I’m hiring, yes, I look for the degree, but I decide who to interview based on work experience.

        I also agree with the need to move. The odds of getting a job in the area you live are small. After I finished my MLS, I managed to land a short term position at my alma mater. In the 8 years since, I’ve moved twice for jobs. Seattle is a big area with lots of schools and museums (I’m also a former Husky!), so you might be able to find a job in a library, but you might not have a lot of choices and might have to settle for something of a lower level than you might otherwise.

    2. Leave it to Beaver*

      Sorry, I don’t have much advice. In the same position, though in my case I have 15 years of Marketing experience (non digital). Good luck!

    3. fposte*

      So public librarianship? Definitely seconding what AnotherLibrarian says. UW is a really good program so they should be on you to get experience (practica should be in the mix as well), but you need to be proactive as well. That’s especially true on the programming–there are likely to be plenty of opportunities, and you will be a much, much stronger candidate if you have solid programming experience. If not assistantships (I think they’d be mostly hired by now), there may be useful hourly jobs in campus libraries, too. But the more experience you can get in the field you’re interested in, the better. I’m used to people finishing their degree with a generous amount of volunteering, plus a practicum, plus a library-related student job.

    4. SpaceNovice*

      Not a librarian, but: a lot of libraries have MakerSpaces now. So you might want to look into UW Seattle’s MakerSpaces (link will be in my reply). You can also find clues by looking at various library programs around the country or in places you want to live. I’ve also seen people using Python in terms of computer languages in relation to library stuff, but you’d have to see what job listings are stressing.

  150. Escape Hatch*

    I have been waiting on this open thread for days! I need some reassurance that I’m not a terrible person or behaving unethically. But if you think I am, please be honest. :)

    I’ve been with my current company for less than 2 years. It was evident almost as soon as I joined that there was serious dysfunction and a toxic culture. The company was showing losses for several months in a row. The manager who hired me was really smart and good at what we do in our department, and he really, really liked me. From my hire and throughout the remainder of his time here, we really clicked.

    It would take me paragraphs to get into all the specifics, but here’s a summary: upper management is guided by their egos and makes knee-jerk decisions, long-term systemic problems are bleeding the company dry financially, we sell an overpriced product in an increasingly competitive industry, and worst of all, a VP-level person who heavily influences the president absolutely HATED my manager and another manager, and worked tirelessly to manipulate, accuse, and undermine until both were fired. Many times, I and others in my department were personally attacked and publicly accused of petty “wrongdoings” by this VP just to make our manager look bad, with no regard for our feelings/morale/reputations. My manager was let go late last year. A few months after he was let go, a very ugly reorganization took place during which several very tenured employees were fired or demoted. The president was actually witnessed by more than one person celebrating and joking about having fired these people. It was awful, hurtful, and tasteless. Communication was nonexistent, and our department lost 2 more people in addition to our manager. We literally figured out amongst ourselves how to divide up the work of our departed colleagues because we were given no direction. There was a lot of discussion about hiring “more qualified” people to replace the ones who were fired, but that has not come to fruition. The company now has a bad reputation and people are not applying. Easily 20-40 more people have resigned in the wake of this awful reorg. We are in a dire resource situation and there’s no clear strategy to resolve it.

    I was already in the midst of a job hunt when my manager was fired, but became so physically ill from stress (work and personal) that I had to give up the job search, and just settle in and enter survival mode. If there is one bright spot, our department was reassigned to the only VP who seems kind, level-headed, and reasonable. She was very understanding and supportive when I was ill, and it helped me relax and regain my health. Things calmed down for a while, but recently, a new manager was hired over our team, and seeing our situation through his eyes has made me feel hopeless all over again. Every morning in the past 2 weeks, he has come into my cube and talked to me for 1-2 hours (!!!) about how bad things are here, how he feels he was duped into taking the position, and how he doesn’t know if he can stay.

    Here is the part about me being a bad person: I am single-handedly responsible for two major projects with hard deadlines over the next few weeks and months, and both projects are critical to the survival of the business. There is no one left in my department who can cover these projects. I know none of us is truly irreplaceable, but this would be an absolutely awful time for me to leave. And…I just accepted another job with a great new company. The offer was generous, the benefits are great, and they focus heavily on community involvement and maintaining a positive culture. I liked what I saw, and I accepted. I will put in my notice as soon as all the preliminary hiring details are confirmed.

    One of the primary reasons I accepted the new position is because I have no confidence that this company will provide the resources or support for me to successfully complete my major projects, and I don’t want their failures to ultimately result in my failure. It is highly likely that I would be blamed for any such failure. Recently, there was a misunderstanding about a strategic decision that was made, and I heard from our VP that the president’s first reaction was to blame me. I was 100% innocent in the situation, which quickly came to light. But the president has always genuinely seemed to be in my corner, and I’m viewed as a top performer (I was just given a great review and generous raise in March). The fact that he was so quick to dismiss my solid reputation and work ethic and lay blame when he didn’t have all the facts was a rude awakening for me. Also, I just generally have no interest in most of my day to day tasks because they’re tedious and clerical in nature, and not at all what I was hired to do.

    Intellectually, I know I’m doing nothing wrong. People leave companies, our management hasn’t planned for that contingency, and I fear my own job could be threatened by recent and near-future events. But I’ll be handing my brand new manager a major stick of dynamite when I resign. Trust me when I say, the failure of either of these projects would be crippling to the business, and I don’t know how in the world they’ll complete them if I leave right now. But I am struggling to see how I’m going to be successful in this environment. I am not willing to work a ton of overtime and risk my health. I simply won’t do it.

    So…AAM family, how bad is this? Should I let go of my guilt, or am I doing anything unethical by leaving them in such a lurch? For what it’s worth, I’ll give them as much notice as possible, and be as helpful as I can with the transition. I have no ill will, in spite of everything. I just feel I need to get out, and the opportunity is here now.

    1. Maria Albert*

      You staying or going is not going to make this place more or less dysfunctional. Your new manager will need to go through the grieving process that happens when one leaves a good job for a con job. Then he’ll find a therapist, figure out how long he can hang on, and start planning his own escape route.

      Congrats on finding your ticket out!

    2. LovecraftInDC*

      You should let go of your guilt. Organizations that rest projects on a single person are opening themselves up for this sort of thing. People aren’t permanent assets. If your company recognizes how important this project is, they will make it work (probably by hiring two or three people just to do all the things you are doing). If they don’t recognize its importance (which it seems, given that there isn’t a backup on the project and you’re horribly overworked, is a major possibility) then they will just be making a poor business decision.

      You’re not a bad person, and you’re not doing a bad or unethical thing to them. You’re doing a regular, usual, business thing. People leaving is natural and normal and should be expected and planned around. But honestly…. it kinda sounds to me like they deserve bad things to happen to them. I suspect you’re like me, and you wouldn’t do anything allowed-but-crappy like give poor notes to your replacement because you want to keep the bridges unburnt and you don’t want people to hate you.

      Get out while you can. I’ve found it helps to frame it differently. If they were going to let you go, would they feel any remorse?

      1. Escape Hatch*

        Thanks so much for the replies, everyone! You’ve all made me feel so much better. I know it seems silly, but I have really struggled with this. Not because I think I’m irreplaceable, but because of the very tight deadlines and lack of time to hire a replacement and bring them up to speed. But CatCat and CM make very good points – I didn’t create this mess and I sure as heck can’t fix it, no matter how long I stay! If I stuck around to finish these projects, I would only be putting a couple of band-aids on a gushing wound.

    3. CatCat*

      You’re not doing anything unethical by accepting a better job and leaving. It’s a normal part of the work world.

      You are planning to put in a reasonable notice and be helpful in the transition. That is all you are ethically obligated to do. Whatever happens after that is not your problem and, if it goes downhill, not your fault. You are not responsible for the mess others created and should not feel guilty for walking away from that mess. Don’t take on the emotional burden of feeling like you have some obligation to try and save this place from itself. Because you don’t

    4. CM*

      Let go of your guilt immediately!

      Perspective: This is a job. You are getting a new job. That’s it.

      You are not responsible for your company’s business decisions. If they were running the company properly, one person leaving would not be a big deal. They are not running the company properly, and that’s not your problem. Your response is appropriate — find a better job, give your company appropriate notice, and transition responsibly by leaving notes.

      Also, if you’re becoming ill or being abused, don’t feel like you need to give lots of notice.

      I’m basically saying exactly what you said: “Intellectually, I know I’m doing nothing wrong. People leave companies, our management hasn’t planned for that contingency, and I fear my own job could be threatened by recent and near-future events.” Yep. Listen to that voice and forget the guilt! You’re being too conscientious here and your company has not earned it.

    6. UtOh!*

      I think you have a duty to not only leave the company, but also make sure to tell them why in your exit interview. If management has no contingency plan, it’s not your problem. Don’t allow your ego to undermine you, the company *will* survive without you…and if they don’t, that’s probably a GREAT thing. Also, don’t be too helpful, they will only try to drag it out, make sure your end date is written in stone.

    8. ..Kat..*

      Let go of your guilt. This company put themselves in the lurch. Take care of yourself. This company certainly won’t take care of you.

    9. Ciara Amberlie*

      I agree with all of the other commenters. You haven’t done anything wrong. If the projects fail after you leave, that’s squarely on the company for not only having no contingency, but also for creating such a toxic environment.

      Congratulations on getting out!

    10. Observer*

      No, you are not doing anything unethical at all. If a company wants to keep critical staff, they need to treat them well. it’s that simple.

      As for your current manager? I feel bad for him, but what he’s doing to you is unethical.

      By the way, don’t worry about the projects. From what you say, they can’t successful anyway, so it’s not like your leaving will really make a difference.

  151. Overeducated*

    Any ideas for classy but interesting retirement gifts? We got my boss a watch, now we’re trying to brainstorm something for my coworker but having trouble. For one thing, my coworker is female and we’re not sure if women appreciate watches as much, and for another, I’d like to get her something a little more unique and reflective of her career. She’s a field scientist, but all the field-related gifts I can find through a quick online search are on the cheap and silly side (t-shirts, mugs, etc.) and not nice enough for a retirement gift. Help!

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I appreciate excellent watches! But that aside, is there any way to kind of ask about her interests or things like that? Or you could just outright ask what she would like, depending on how much of a surprise you want it to be.

    2. LovecraftInDC*

      Are there any specific tools she uses in her field work? My dad is a geologist, and has gotten a very nice hand lens and an ornamental rock hammer as retirement/parting gifts.

      2. Overeducated*

        That’s exactly what I was hoping to find, but the iconic tool for our field is pretty basic and I can’t find a fancy or engraved one through googling. Any ideas for sourcing?

        1. LovecraftInDC*

          Without knowing the specific business, I don’t know how helpful I can be. But if it’s got some solid bits of metal on it, I’d call around to local trophy or jewelry stores, as they usually have the equipment to do the engraving.

    3. CatCat*

      I mean, does she wear watches? That would give you evidence of whether she likes them.

      Does she wear other jewelry? If so, might also be an idea (a gold or silver necklace with a pendant reflective of her field, say).

      Are their classic books in her field where you could get either a rare edition, or a really nicely bound edition. Like if she’s a marine biologist, a rare edition of “Between Pacific Tides.”

      How about tickets to an event she might like?

    4. DrWombat*

      Maybe a nice science-related piece of artwork? There are some really lovely art prints out there!

    5. BadWolf*

      Some women really like watches. Does she wear one now? Maybe a rugged/outdoorsy one (does she also hike, etc)?

      Nice binoculars? Spotting scope?

      If you are pondering jewelry, I would observe whether she wears jewelry now (and what kind and if it changes).

      1. Overeducated*

        She doesn’t wear a watch now, and is not very outdoorsy at this point in life (she has done a LOT of fieldwork but things change over a 30+ year career, health, etc). So I’d like to get something symbolic, but not necessarily a functional tool. She does wear necklaces sometimes….

    6. Technical_Kitty*

      Something from her field area might be nice. I used to do field work in the Yukon and something nice and Yukon-y would have been an excellent retirement gift.

      1. Anna Held*

        Seconded. You can get nice pens and have them engraved at a bunch of price points.
        Also, maybe a nice necklace with a pendant in shape of that common tool, and the date engraved on the back.

    8. Trixie*

      As a field scientist, does she have a specific favorite region or territory? Perhaps a framed antique map or historical photo of the area.

      1. Overeducated*

        Interesting idea! I wonder if we could do something like that, or maybe a collage of places she’s worked. But time is short, we have 2 weeks notice!

        1. Trixie*

          – More hands-on creative with a scrapbook of signatures/quotes/well-wishes, with one page per person and maybe with photos thrown in.
          -Or if you had enough photos, a custom book from Shutterfly or similar.
          – Custom 12-month calendar with photos (only need 12 which could be fun or group shots, or retiree with groups/individual)
          -Another calendar idea: merge silly kitten calendar with second calendar. A friend cut out these huge kittens and artfully added to a mountain biking calendar. Best. Thing.Ever.

    9. Cabinet Door Builder*

      I know you tossed off a coffee mug, but you could make a personalized one a part of the gift. I received one with pictures of my beloved coworkers and me when I transferred out of state. I cherish it.

  152. Doc in a Box*

    I need to vent about my dysfunctional junior colleague! We’re both physicians, so it’s a relatively high-stakes work environment. She’s been here for almost a year, and she still needs so much hand-holding for the most basic tasks, like ordering medications. (She made so many mistakes that pharmacy revoked her privileges for controlled substances, so she has been trying to get me to order benzos and narcotics on her behalf!) She yells at patients loud enough to hear through closed doors, leaves sensitive information lying around (major HIPAA violation) and apparently has been stashing vials of unused Botox in her desk (for personal use? I have no idea). Besides these medicine-specific issues, she is also chronically late to work; some days, if she doesn’t have patients scheduled, she doesn’t show up at all.

    She was put on a performance plan and didn’t improve — she showed up 30 min late to her own hearing because she “forgot.” She then told everyone that she was quitting, and three weeks later changed her mind and decided to stay but is going to take the summer off. And admin just went with it!

    1. CM*

      It’s so frustrating when management won’t do anything about people who are not doing their jobs. A PIP is useless if you don’t improve and nothing happens!

    2. The New Wanderer*

      All of that should be grounds for firing. If your management won’t do it, it’s a case of “management is useless and not going to change” and with HIPAA violations and possible drug theft, your office is at risk of serious problems in the near future.

      1. WellRed*

        And significant fines and possible lawsuits. Please tell me you aren’t ordering narcotics for her, because I’d be afraid she’s not documenting it or prescribing it properly.

    3. UtOh!*

      If she can take the summer off, hopefully she’ll figure out a way to not come back at all!

    4. SpaceNovice*

      Yeah, you don’t need a physician like that in your office. She’s toxic. She’s also showing signs that she’s embezzling drugs, she’s incompetent, and will horrifically harm your office’s reputation. Any of those reasons is a good reason to fire her!

      But most importantly: she can’t give good care, and she’s hurting the health of your patients. You can tell that solely from her attitude. People’s lives are literally at stake.

      1. SpaceNovice*

        Also, I forgot to say: I’ve worked in the defense industry before and any one of these is what we would say is an indication of a potential insider threat. Just one. All of these? Major red flags. More flags than the United Nations Headquarters. Truthfully, she should probably be losing her medical license ALREADY. I feel bad for your management because she’s obviously so effing bad that they don’t know what to do with her.

        1. anon24*

          Yes. I’m wondering if she could be reported to your state medical board. Certainly the HIPAA violations should be addressed. She sounds like a danger to her patients (I’m in the medical field also)

    5. Observer*

      Can you report her to the appropriate government agencies without endangering your job?

      If not, I’d seriously consider looking for a new job. If she sticks around the changes of a major blow up keep going up. The further away you can be from the mess, the better for you.

  153. I think this is the job I'm hiring for*

    I was all gung-ho about sending rejection emails to my great-but-not-top-one candidates and now that the time has come to write and send them, I’m second-guessing myself on the text. Suggestions? I’m thinking about “Dear [candidate], We enjoyed meeting you to discuss the [title] position in [our office]. We selected another candidate for the position. You were a strong candidate, and we wish you much success. Love and kisses (not really!), [me].”

    1. Tax Nerd*

      As someone who is probably going to receive this soon, I kinda like it. Maybe add “We will keep your resume on file in case something comes up for which you would be a strong candidate”, if that is the case. If you’re a small org, and that’s unlikely, then leave it off.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’d get rid of the “Love and Kisses.” I think it feels patronizing and overly personal.

          1. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

            It reminds me of the beginning of that video game “Simon the Sorcerer”, where he gets a letter that goes something like “Help! I’ve been kidnapped by the evil wizard. Wish you were here! Love and kisses, Calypso.”

            Because of this, I too sometimes use “love and kisses” when flippantly summarizing the contents of emails. :D

  154. Creepy coworker*

    Long story short, my coworker creeps me out and I hate sharing a cube with him. I want to move desks, but I dont want to tell my manager its because of my coworker. We have run into some issues in the past where he admitted he had feelings for me (my manager doesn’t know this), but he’s backed off now for the most part. I just get this strange vibe from him still and sometimes it’s enough to distract me at work. I’m not sure if changing desks is an option and it sounds absurd to tell my manager I need to move because of this situation anyway. How can I get over this weird feeling and learn to ignore him?

    1. Natalie*

      Why don’t you want to tell your manager the cause of your discomfort is coworker?

    2. Clarice Fitzpatrick*

      Is there anything your coworker is doing specifically to make you uncomfortable or is it vibes? How exactly did he communicate his feelings? (Did he admit them and back off appropriately after you said no or has he acted weird, like creeping on you, being overly cold or emotional about your interactions, etc. anything that would impact your work.) Because the right solution may be to loop in your manager, if they’re a reasonable one, depending on your coworker’s actions.

    3. Batshua*

      … Or you could tell your manager that you’d like to change desks because it’s hard for you to focus? I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask to move because you’re distracted and uncomfortable … I mean, honestly, if your manager brushes that off, it’s kinda jerky, although I can see that happening. While it doesn’t rise to the level of sexual harassment, you want to be able to be comfortable at work, if for no other reason than you can’t do your best work while feeling creeped out.

      You *might* want to use softening language?

      “I feel silly mentioning this, but I feel uncomfortable and distracted around coworker ever since he said he had feelings for me. Is there any way I can get a change of workspace?”

    4. PB*

      Honestly, it doesn’t sound absurd at all. Your coworker, with whom you share a cube, admitted he had feelings for you. It’s 100% fine for that to make you feel uncomfortable even if it was a while ago. And you said that he’s backed off “for the most part,” which suggests that he hasn’t completely backed off. Asking your manager to change your seating assignment for this reason is completely acceptable, and any reasonable manager would want to know about this.

  155. Maria Albert*

    How do you deal with a technical manager who is not educated enough? He’s not actually my manager but he has to approve much of my work, so I’m often caught in between him and my actual manager, and part of my job is to navigate that & only bring issues to real manager when absolutely necessary.

    Non manager lacks industry experience. He insists on practices that would expose our company to derision if they were public. He will send my work back to the drawing board if I do things according to best practices and industry standards. He is often militantly wrong. When I offer detailed, well-cited explanations for my methods, he will often ignore it completely whether over email, on the phone, or in person, and say some non sequitor. I think it’s a childish defense mechanism.

    A lot of it is cultural, and my real boss very much has my back. Other than this, it’s a good job. I can’t leave within the next year for a host of excellent reasons; but I am actively networking and taking night classes.

    I think the problem is impossible or way above my pay grade, but if anyone has ideas, I’m all ears. Thank you.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Have you missed deadlines/other metrics because of Not Manager? Have you brought it up to your actual manager in the context of Not Manager delaying your work etc.?

      I think someone constantly delaying work products is a reasonable thing to bring up to your manager and ask how Actual Manager would like you to handle them. At the very least, it’ll let Actual Manager know that Not Manager is causing hiccups where there shouldn’t be. Don’t frame it as “Not Manager is completely wrong & uneducated”, but instead as a “Often our best practices are in conflict with what Not Manager is requesting, and I would like to know how to handle this going forward.”

  156. Amaryllis*

    If you went to grad school somewhere different than undergrad, do you network through your grad university’s alumni society instead of or in addition to your undergrad university’s society? I can see pros/cons both ways, so just curious what others have done.

    1. Maria Albert*

      I do both. I’m in a field where people only go to grad school at their undergrad institutions if they couldn’t get accepted somewhere else. AFAIK most scientific fields are like that; they want you to get exposure to different institutions.

    2. LadyKelvin*

      Yeah I do both. I went to an undergrad only college and it is unusual for people to go to grad school after college there (most people go to medical school, I was the only one of my class in my major who didn’t). However, I have some close friends/mentors who are still there and I keep in touch with who put me in touch with alumni who are in a similar field as me. My grad school has obviously a lot more people who do what I do, so its easier to network there, but my undergrad is so small that there is an instant connection with people who are fellow alumni.

    3. CM*

      For me, it’s about where I feel more connected, which is my undergrad school. I don’t network through my grad school because I can’t enthusiastically say, “Hey, we both went to this school so we have something in common.” (But most of my networking is through my professional school for obvious reasons — we’re all in the same profession.)

      1. Julianne (also a teacher)*

        Same, and also I still live in the city/state where I did my grad work (which is ~1000 miles from where I attended undergrad).

    5. NeverGoingToFindAHome*

      I network through both, although admittedly I network moreso through my grad program’s network rather than my grad school’s network. I live in the same city I did my grad degree in, which makes it easier to network, but whenever my undergrad alumni network (and especially my undergrad faculty alumni network) hosts an event in town, I hit it up just to see if I see anyone I might have taken classes with who has ended up in my city. This allows me to connect with them better because my city might be new for them, and they might want to know someone in the city who they sort of knew beforehand!

  157. De Minimis*

    I have the last two digits of my birth year in my e-mail address. Should I change it to something else for job searching purposes or am I being paranoid? I never really thought about it, but then I read an article saying older [40+] job seekers should avoid those type of e-mail addresses. I’ve been using this e-mail for over a decade….

    1. Batshua*

      Eh, if it’s the last 2 digits, maybe it’s just your favorite number?

      Do you feel like it’s actually had an impact on how many callbacks you’ve received?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I have that in one of my emails and specifically don’t use it for job stuff (I’m in the 40+ category), but I also have two other primary accounts that I can easily use.

      I’d say it’s up to you, people might not read into it, but as it’s free and might ease your mind I vote for setting up an account specifically for job hunting. You can always ditch it when you get a new job and can use company email.

    4. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I keep personal data like that out of the public eye just as a (minor) safety precaution.

    5. 23 days left @ toxic job*

      Make a new email! Everyone knows that the 2 numbers are a year, so you’re facing potential age discrimination but also it looks less professional to have numbers in your email. If you have a common name, try putting a period or underscore in.

      1. De Minimis*

        I’m getting callbacks some of the time, not other times [and some of those were for positions for which I seemed like a good fit on paper.] I have an old gmail account that I just reactivated that I’m going to start using for job hunting purposes.

  158. Ok to Hug Direct Report on Bad Day?*

    My direct report and I are having an awful week. A vendor we work with majorly messed something up. It was outside of our control, but it’s something we tangentially touch, so we are getting the brunt of the heat internally. Frankly, we’ve both in or near tears at times the last couple of days. (We’re both women, and I think we have a very good rapport, fwiw.)

    Part of me really wants to give her a hug and get the oxytocin going. On the other hand, I’m pretty sure I’d freak the heck out if a boss tried to hug me, unless it was goodbye because one of us was leaving. So maybe I’ve answered my own question, and will need to settle for a fist bump or something.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I was having a bad…period of time. Still am. My superior person asked if she could give me a hug. It was odd, but also nice. You could go that route if you feel your direct report is in need. It would honestly depend on how bad the day/week was. I’d settle for a slice of pie or something before I’d want my boss hugging me, personally.

      1. Washi*

        Yeah, I like hugs, but even with the bosses that I’ve absolutely adored, I would have found this kind of hug slightly too awkward/fraught to be comforting. Not sure why, but goodbye hugs and quick celebratory hugs feel ok, but a sad commiserating hug crosses the line for me, personally.

        1. 23 days left @ toxic job*

          I was about to comment to disagree but then I pictured sadly hugging my favorite boss and you’re right, it feels weird! I hugged him goodbye when I left, and I’ve hugged him to greet him, but giving a sad hug seems to cross the line.

          1. Ok to Hug Direct Report on Bad Day?*

            Yeah. I decided it’d be weird to ask or do. I just settled for a very gentle two-knuckle fist bump to the shoulder.

    2. CM*

      I would find somebody else to hug, and stick to verbal sympathy with your direct report.

    3. Ron McDon*

      My boss sometimes hugs me when i’m having a bad day – and I like it! But I know some colleagues of mine would be verrrrrry uncomfortable to be hugged, so I think you have to be sure that the recipient will appreciate it.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      A hug might be weird. The only boss I’ve hugged was my one that got laid off, and that was more from shock than anything (10% of the staff was laid off in one day, which was several hundred people). My current boss is the epitome of New England Yankee reserve so if she hugged me I’d assume something was wrong with her. Maybe bring in something nice Monday morning, like a muffin or coffee, to start off the week right? The Monday after a bad week is also difficult, so something thoughtful like that, to acknowledge the past crap week and say “here’s to a better week” might be appreciated.

  159. Shawna*

    Hi all,
    I applied for a job this week (big, well-known, health organization) and after submitting the materials got an automated email explaining that an additional assessment was required. The message included a link to an assessment website, which was long and complicated and included bizarre questions asking the candidate to “strongly agree/agree etc” with statements like “I am right most of the time” and “there are some people who can never be pleased.” Even more annoying. some non-optional questions asked the candidate to rank different job attributes including job security. I think job security is the #1 priority for most people (secondary to room for growth, leadership, etc) – but it seemed like they were trying to screen out people who are just there for the paycheck. Does anyone recognize this assessment? I was incredibly turned off by it and felt really resentful.

    1. Clarice Fitzpatrick*

      I’ve taken assessments like this before and I dislike them for the same reasons you do. They seem to be there to find people based on their ~passion~ and ~personality~ in vague ways that don’t relate to the actual job. Like, I consider myself a good employee and love helping out people, but I hate these really flat assessments that seem to want to dig into my character for no purpose.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Had to take one of these and really resented it. Especially because it was hosted on some third-party website that I assume is vulnerable to being hacked, and I had to include personal information so the data about likes/dislikes/attitudes could be tied to my email, phone number, etc.

    3. lopsided*

      My old workplace used to do these for entry-level positions, and it was all HR. A lot of people who had been there a long time didn’t see any value in it, but it’s still in place because someone in HR has decided that’s the way it is… Oh and I used to work at a large, specialty healthcare organization too…

    4. Kat in VA*

      I’ve been on the job hunt for about six weeks, and I’ve taken three of these assessments. Two of them were more of the personality type (agree/disagree with this statement), and one had math and reasoning questions thrown in. I ended up declining a phone interview for that one because the Glassdoor reviews were pretty horrendous. I take Glassdoor with a grain of salt (people are more apt to take to the internet to complain rather than praise), but it was bad enough (2.4 rating) and odd enough (mandatory 9.5 hour day for salaried employees?!?!) that I opted to pass.

      I’m dubious as to the efficacy of the personality tests – if someone says, “It’s OK to lie to your boss”, I’m going to disagree with that even if I’m the kind of person who lies to everyone all the time. Some are more intuitive and some are more insidious, but personality tests annoy me because it seems like one more thing that’s added to the multiple layers of screening that doesn’t allow for any kind of individuality to come through.

  160. GuitarLady*

    I always laugh at stories of people who work in colleges or hire young people with helicopter parents, but today its happening to me! I work freelance doing financial work, and I had a 20-something person hire me for my services, and then her mom just started emailing me about the daughter’s affairs. I was kind of annoyed and also I’m not ethically supposed to discuss clients stuff with other people. So I checked with the daughter to make sure she was giving permission, and she was like, oh yeah, just deal with my mom. Sigh. Ok, its money, and doesn’t really matter to me, but I am strong believer that this is a basic adult responsibility YOU should be handling, not your mom. I’m kinda feeling like this might not go well.

    1. H.C.*

      Since the client is the daughter, I would CC her on all correspondences with her mom (and as you’re already doing – being vigilant about checking with the client and getting her Ok before discussing business affairs with her mom).

    1. Morning Glory*

      In my org, an externship is when you are employed in a position, but get a secondment to another org for a few months. First org pays your benefits still, and subsidizes your salary, with the understanding that the secondment will help with professional development in some way, and that you will return, so that your org will benefit from your new skills.

  162. Anon anony*

    I don’t understand my current job. They seem to not like me because I’m quiet, but there are people quieter than me. Another new girl just started and I’ve tried making small talk with her, but she seems uncomfortable. I’m sick of this and feeling like this. Why can’t I just fit in?

    1. Luna*

      I feel you, that happens to me too all the time. I know I’m quiet, but there are other quiet people who they do seem to like, so I guess there is something else to it. I just don’t know what.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Have you thought about seeing a therapist? It might help to talk about how you are feeling with someone who knows practical ways to help you adapt. I have some social anxiety and I found having a therapist has been a life line for me when I feel like this. It might help you, too.

        1. Batshua*

          Could it just be adjustment? It can take up to a year to settle into a new job.

          Also, some people are just cold and it’s not about you.

          If there IS someone you sorta kinda get along with, find out if it IS about you, by asking. I know at my first “real” job, I was too talkative for everyone, and it took some adjustment. It was just too quiet for me. I was glad to change jobs, where I was a better cultural fit.

    4. Underpaid Bookkeeper*

      When I first got married/was dating my husband I dealt with this with my MIL she got made I wasn’t a chatty cathy and took it as I hated her. Some people just don’t talk a lot.

  163. WakandaForever*

    Looking for advice on how to approach my career path:

    I’m currently a few months into my second full time job after college (was at the first for a little over a year), and this job is in an industry I’d actually like to build a career in. I’m enjoying my current role, but I’m interested in another area of work. My role right now actually works with and supports the area of work I’d like to transition to, and I’m learning a lot about the industry, tools, practices, financials, etc that would be useful to the work I’m interested in.

    So overall after about a year here I think I’ll have a pretty good baseline of knowledge in this industry. At that point I think I’ll want to find a different role more aligned with the work I’d like to do, but that means I’d likely have to stay at entry level (right?). 3 years or so total of entry level work sounds exhausting and not productive, and I feel like I’m just not moving upwards at all. Any advice on how to approach this?

    1. WakandaForever*

      Forgot to mention, this is an industry where promotions can happen quickly and people are always moving around employers. Is it out of touch to think maybe I could be promoted fairly quickly in my next entry level role since I’ll have a good base of related knowledge and could fill in the gaps quickly?

    2. CM*

      I’d focus on your skills and responsibilities, rather than your title or whether it’s considered an upward move. So, after a year, think about what you’d like to be doing, and what skills you would need to build to get there. Then consider whether you can build those skills in your current role — if not, what would you need to change and what do you have the ability to change? A shift in your responsibilities in your current role, a new role, a new company?

      1. WakandaForever*

        Right I definitely take this advice to heart, honestly my biggest issue is the entry level salary for 3 years. That’s kind of why I’d like to actually move upwards and increase my salary as opposed to feeling like I’ve learned and contributed a lot in my current role and then having to stay at my salary so I can start at entry level in a different role because of the knowledge gaps that would presumably keep me from starting at higher than entry level.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      So I don’t know your industry, but 2-3 years is – in general – as long as everyone stays “entry” level (not counting merit increases). That’s not necessarily unreasonable. BUT, just because you’re changing departments or roles does NOT mean you have to start over at the bottom. I struggled with that same thinking when I was working my way beyond entry level. You can leverage the experience you’re getting in your role now to a NON-entry level role on a new team/company as long as your experience is related. Based on what you said above, it sounds like it really, really is related. So, don’t feel like you have to apply for an entry level position just because you’re switching your career focus.

      My career path example:
      The general position you have now is exactly the same set up that allowed me to move up at my company.
      I came in at an entry level, client facing role (operations support), and the client I worked with began requesting and executing new functionality on one of our products. Once it became clear the new functionality could be rolled out across all our clients, I was in a position as a subject matter expert internally to support that roll out based solely on my experience with that first client.
      It also set me up to insert myself into designing the policies and workflows for the operations department for the new product (based on that good ol’ SME status). I leveraged that into a promotion to a new role that ONLY did those things and was no longer client facing (they created this position for me). That promotion gave me access to more teams and more knowledge (which I hoarded like a dragon) and more experience with our different internal tools, so when another promotion opened up to join our product management team, it made absolute sense for me to apply – the new role is product manager for aaaaaall those internal tools I spent the last 5 years learning. I got it, and I got it because I was the subject matter expert (and because I made sure I was easy to work with, exemplified quick learning, was a good communicator, etc – all the soft skills that you can show off in any position), NOT because I had previous product management experience – because I don’t have that.

      So all that to say, the support you’re doing now? That’s awesome because it’s directly related to the type of work you want to do. LEARN ALL THE THINGS. Ask for additional responsibilities. Amoeba your way into all the possible nooks and crannies so when anyone has questions that touch your domain, you’re the person they want to ask. Be pleasant, easy to work with, quick to respond, clear in your communications. And when an opening on that team comes up, you’re the first name on every one’s mind. Obviously you don’t have to stay at one company to do this, but that’s the same idea. Once you have this wealth of knowledge and a ton of people who will give stellar references based on their work with you, be confident and intentional about using it as a stepping stone to a higher position. DON’T just use it as a nice bonus to have in an entry level hire. That’s selling yourself way cheaper than you’re worth.

      1. WakandaForever*

        This is really helpful thanks! Do you think it’d be a hard sell to get a higher position in my preferred area with gaps in actual process even though I’ll have a lot of knowledge about what it is that they do, best practices, and the tools they use? It feels like my biggest hurdle will be that I’ll have a lot of fundamentals but will not have actually done the particular work on a day to day.

  164. Xarcady*

    So, I’ve been temping for this company for four years, doing a variety of different projects and jobs. Spent the last year and a half in the same job.

    They’ve just posted a job ad for not-exactly-this-position, but a step higher. Mostly, I’ve been doing this job, as my supervisor has been giving me more and more responsibility. Obviously, I’m applying for it. (This is completely out of the blue–they just had a round of layoffs last month and announced a complete reorganization this month.)

    I have a reference from my other job, but that’s retail. And a reference from a manager in a different department, where I did more or less what I’m doing now. And I could probably get another manager to be a reference, but I was doing a completely different job. Any other reference is going to be from about 9-10 years ago, as I have a 5 year gap in regular employment, due to taking care of aged parents.

    Who do you use as a reference, when your current supervisor will be interviewing you?

    1. CatCat*

      I think you’ve got as fine. It seems unlikely that they would really need references other than the internal one you’ve got. You’ve been there 4 years. I can’t imagine they’d really need much more at this point to know what kind of worker you are.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      In this specific circumstance I might do non-supervisor references – as CatCat says below, they’re not likely to put a lot of stock in references after four years of working with you themselves – are there other department heads at this current workplace you could ask to be a reference? Anyone with more seniority than you, ideally someone on the same level as this boss? A power move might be to ask the CEO or someone *higher* than your boss to be your reference, but let other people weigh in on that maybe. (I saw it done once to great effect but it might not be generalizable).

  165. Nacho*

    How do you feel about team potlucks? My team usually has one once a month, and I’m getting a little tired of it/don’t like that I’m expected to spend $10 every month buying food when I always bring my own dinner from home. Should I just not participate, or will that come off as antisocial if everybody else does it?

    1. Clarice Fitzpatrick*

      I like potlucks but we didn’t have them monthly, maybe once every couple of months, usually for special occasions like someone leaving, a reached goal, etc. I also didn’t spend much money or put a lot of effort into cooking (because I’m that great), so I opted for a bag of chips knowing my coworkers would bring warm food.

      Maybe you can ask other coworkers’ opinions and gauge whether overall opinions are also negative or even mixed enough, and then ask management to lower the amount of potlucks and switch them with other activities. If everyone really likes them though, you might have to suck it up and find ways to lower costs if possible. Or choose to only do it every once in a while and cite your budget (just don’t go and take food for yourself in those times).

    2. BadWolf*

      We do a potluck once a year — I’d get tired of monthly potlucks. Would people notice/care if you did every other month? Would you mind it less if you brought paper plates or napkins or something? Or find something odd or silly at the grocery store to bring? Or something super easy like a bag of clementines or grapes?

    3. Gabriela*

      I am staunchly anti-pot luck. It is almost always a huge waste of food and money. If it’s anything like our annual potlucks, then you have to go back to work with the rest of the picked apart dish you brought in and just let it sit in your office.

  166. Samantha G.*

    How do you deal with a manager that doesn’t share the same work experience? In general this works but becomes problematic when it comes to transfering knowledge. I have a vast understanding of the technical matter while she has specific knowledge of certain systems (but not necessarily how they all can work together). Example: she’ll piece out information about a system changes (so to not overwhelm me [her words]) but after about the 3rd conversation about it, I’ll realize it was something pretty straight forward had she had a broader understanding. I try not come across as a know it all but it really can put the speed bumps on certain projects. Also, it seems from time to time she gets upset that I’ll know something – along the lines of “did Albert meet with you without telling me !?”….nope thats just how LDAP works. How can I make this work better?

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      If you think she’d be receptive and wouldn’t take it badly, you could maybe create a list of FAQs for her.

    2. CM*

      Can you inform your manager about the areas that you know a lot about? Maybe during a 1-on-1 or something, you can say, “I’ve noticed that sometimes you don’t want to overwhelm me with information, so I wanted to give you an overview of systems that I’m familiar with. I’ve worked extensively with LDAP, […]. So if there’s a system change relating to any of those, they’re usually easy for me to understand. But I’m less familiar with […], so when there’s an issue with one of those systems, I’ll ask you for more guidance.”

  167. Imprudence27*

    I have an interview on Monday, and there is going to be a 40 minute year in “IT skills, prioritisation, written communication”. Aargh. Has anyone any practical hints or suggestions.

    1. LovecraftInDC*

      I’m assuming you meant test, although I’ve had interviews where 40 minutes sounded felt a year.

      This to me sounds very basic. 40 minutes wouldn’t be long enough to really get into a lot of those things. My biggest suggestion is to try to stress about it as little as possible. I’m willing to bet you’ll come out of it thinking most of the questions were pretty ‘duh’.

  168. Kathy*

    There’s a field next to our office and this family has pulled over there to let their children run around screaming their heads off. They’re very clearly smack dab in the middle of a couple of office buildings being incredibly inconsiderate, and it’s ridiculously annoying.

  169. Decima Dewey*

    I’m helping my new boss learn his position. The last new boss I had to train was very religious and approached everything with the attitude that the almighty would provide. In other words, she’d complain about something she had to do, until one of her staff gave in and offered to do it for her. Generally, but not always, that would be me.

    I’m showing Mr. Lastname what needs to be done, am prepared to show him more than once, and just have to fight the urge to do it myself. He’s asked that he be Mr. Lastname to the patrons, explaining that it’s cultural, that the kids show adults respect. Others in the system tell me he’s all about respect, so I bear that in mind, and hope that difficult patrons don’t figure out that’s a button they can push to annoy him. His first name is Alberto, and one of the staff got a kick out of the rolled r in the way he says his name.

  170. Underpaid Bookkeeper*

    When applying for jobs how far back do you go? So I’m in my early 30s and have about 10 years total work experience. But I only have 3-4 years in my current field. Do I put all those old jobs I had right out of college (that were also in a different state)? I normally only put the last 1-2 jobs but I never know if what I am doing is correct.

    I’ve stayed at this job WAY too long for this reason b/c I HATE searching for jobs and the weird hiring process…and don’t get me started on those weird/annoying websites.

    1. Passing On Advice*

      I’ve been working with a good friend and resume savant on some things (she has years of hiring experience and has seen thousands of resumes, not unlike Ask A Manager) and her advice is to put the recent jobs most related to the position you’re applying for… assuming that leaving one or two things out won’t leave a giant gap that you’ll have to explain. Much better to concentrate on the last 4 years of current, applicable experience you have in-field than just list a bunch of jobs that won’t move the needle for hiring managers.

      The main thing I’ve learned from her is that it’s more important to list objective accomplishments from each job experience listed instead of more jobs and/or skills.

    2. Julianne (also a teacher)*

      My work history is similar, and I only have jobs in my field on my resume. In my field (K-12 education), nobody really cares what other jobs you’ve had once you’ve started your teaching career, though, so YMMV.

    3. ronda*

      i have many more years of experience, but when I was going to an out-sourcing firm their recommendation was to have about 10 years of experience on the resume (kind of hide how old you are by not putting 30 years of jobs on your resume)
      I was at the prior company for 17 years, so I had 17 years of experience listed but my more recent positions had many more details than my first positions at the company.
      Then for the 2 companies I worked for before that I had just the company name and position titles. ( I did accounting work at those companies but had transitioned to IT work for accounting systems at the last company and wanted to show that on the resume) . I was not specific about my time-frame for these 2 jobs. On the online application I usually left these off. I just put the several positions at the last company in as different entries.

      I did leave off my waitress experience and my teachers assistant during college days.

      So I think if you only put 3 or 4 years of experience they will wonder why you were not working before then, but you dont have to go into a lot of details about the jobs if they are not relevant. When I was getting my 1st job out of college the waitressing and teacher assistant jobs were on the resume, but only to show I had work experience, not because they were particularly relevant to the type of job I would be getting.

      also many areas have job networking programs that go into detail about how to job search. this is one in atlanta. they have a class that covers the kind of stuff the out sourcing firm tells you. It might help you to attend something like this and pick up the things you are able to do from it (I sure didnt do all of them, cause I hate job searching too) http://www.rumc.com/jobnetworking/

  171. anonykins*

    Reminder not to call when delivering bad candidate news…interviewed for an internal transfer and when I emailed the hiring manager for an update she called to tell me I didn’t have the job. Had to try not to sound upset while thanking her for that news. I understand the decision and will be fine by the end of the weekend, but I’m not fine in the 30 seconds after I find out!

    1. nep*

      Yes–email this, please. Always email.
      Sorry for the bad news, anonykins. Best of luck.

    2. AeroEngineer*

      Yes, and if you do have to call, please have a solid script of what you are going to say.

      I got a rejection from a position which I was pretty confident that I had done really well, and she called me, was obviously super uncomfortable in delivering the news, and then even said “It is a good thing!” (referring to that I had made it that far in the process, which already was hard to do), which stung so much at that moment it was all I could do to not start crying on the phone and just hanging up.

  172. A is anon for this*

    I met with my boss today. She told me I’ve accomplished 100% of what was expected of me in the past year, saved the company half a million dollars, and they fired two agencies because of the work I’ve been doing made them unnecessary. And yet I feel like a failure because it feels like I just met expectations, I didn’t go above and beyond and EXCEED those expectations. Is that normal? Should I stop beating myself up and try to be proud?

    1. 23 days left @ toxic job*

      By any and all measures, you sound like a stellar employee. And it sounds like your boss knows how great you are, and it doesn’t sound like she’s pushing you to do more, in fact it sounds like you far exceeded her expectations for the role. So what I would do is focus on where you’re getting the idea that you’re not exceeding expectations. If your boss is making you feel like you’re not doing enough, you can talk about that. But it sounds like this is something coming from an internal place. If that’s the case, I highly recommend therapy. It helped me reframe my thinking a lot.

      1. A is anon for this*

        She definitely didn’t make me feel that way, but my whole life I’ve gotten the message that meeting expectations isn’t enough, I have to go above and beyond, and exceed expectations, because that’s the only way to move up in the world. And right now I’m looking for ways to give my career a turbo-boost, so being mediocre is definitely not gonna work for me.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          The fact that your company ended 2 relationships with outside agencies based on your work is absolutely a sign you’re exceeding expectations. They went through the process of vetting and approving the cost to pay those agencies to do that work, which means the cost was worth it to them. And I assume those relationships were at least of a reasonable length of time. It’s a huge success to be able to say those huge costs that were determined worthwhile or no longer needed because of your contribution to the company. Unless your company hired you expressly to allow them to end those costly contracts, you’re absolutely killing it. And even if that WAS the express purpose of your hiring, you could still be exceeding expectations if you accomplished it in an accelerated timeline and/or are performing those tasks better (more quickly/with better quality) than those vendors.

          Also – meeting expectations is okay! At least at my job, there are several different metrics we’re measured against, and I never exceed expectations in ALL of them; some yes, but if I got exceptional scores across the board, I’d assume they were being too easy in their “grading”. You’re doing great!

        2. fposte*

          This sounds like you’ve internalized the message about meeting expectations not being enough without ever really questioning or getting distance from it; it also sounds like you’re in the habit of beating yourself up as a response, which is a lot more harmful than useful no matter what you did. What if you let go of the notion of expectations, which are pretty variable anyway, and just looked at your achievements?

    2. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      YOU SAVED YOUR COMPANY HALF A MILLION DOLLARS AND DID THE WORK OF TWO CONTRACTORS YOU ARE BEING A CRAZY PERSON

      Okay, so. To be serious: your contributions are MASSIVE. Maybe your boss tends to be understated, or maybe she’s just a jerk. Maybe she means that of course she expected you to do the work of two agencies…or maybe she means that you did everything she could have possibly asked for in an employee.

      You know your boss better than I do. But I would think that given your performance, I’d go with the latter. And yes, you should be DAMN proud of yourself.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I hope your supervisor is giving you a significant raise in recognition of your accomplishments, and not just the usual 2 to 3% that is all too standard.

  173. 23 days left @ toxic job*

    I told my boss I’m quitting today! He was surprisingly chill about it which was helpful. Now I just have to finish the next month here!

  174. Milhouse*

    I have a question academics might be best suited to answer, but I’m open to all thoughts!

    I am like five weeks pregnant, so really too early to tell people especially my work (to my mind–the possibility of miscarriage is still pretty high at this point). I’m in academia, and my partner and I decided to start trying to conceive after I didn’t have a tenure-track or post-doc job offer at the end of the fall job market. I have an instructor position for next year (and if I want beyond, but I’m planning to go on the market again) at an institution where I have previously taught as an adjunct. The benefits are decent there, so I think actual leave will be manageable, and I think since my colleagues kind of know me they’ll be happy for my news when I’m ready to share it.

    My issues are two:
    1. I applied for a couple of one-year jobs (Visiting Assistant Prof positions) and now I’m worried about the ethics of that. I know I’m unlikely to get any specific job, but what if I did? (I’d be due in Jan/Feb.)

    2. I agreed to do a service task for my instructor job that should come with what we call a course reduction, which is that my teaching load will be lessened so I have more time for this committee. I’m currently trying to work out the course reduction, but I’m not sure I’ll actually qualify if I take a term off for mat leave, given that my service commitment would likely need to be temporarily reassigned. But if I DO still qualify for the reduction, I’d like it to be the term after my leave so I can get paid for less in-class time, but again, I’m not sure how to try to organize that. (And if I miss that term, I’m losing a coveted class they’ve agreed to give me winter term, so I would like to renegotiate my whole year’s schedule. But it’s too early to plan the leave at all, I’m thinking.) And now we’re heading into summer, so I’m not sure when I’ll get face time to have a private conversation with anyone with scheduling power!

    Anyone been in a similar position? Is it too early for me to worry about this at all? I don’t want to get all tangled up in knots about this and then end up not needing any of these arrangements I’ve been stressed about.

    1. Doc in a Box*

      Congrats on the pregnancy and best wishes! I’m in academic medicine, which is a little different from “regular” academia, so apologies if any of this doesn’t apply….

      In terms of your timeline, you have an instructor job for August 2018-May 2019 and are due in Jan/Feb 2019, right? And would be taking maternity leave for the spring semester of 2019 and then hoping for a course reduction in fall 2019? In that case, I wouldn’t say anything to anyone until you’re past the first trimester. If there’s unlikely to be major scheduling decisions made over the summer, you have nothing to lose by waiting till things gear up again in August. I’m not sure how the winter term course fits — wouldn’t you be missing that term anyway because of your due date?

      Don’t worry at all about the ethics of having applied to 1 year jobs. You have a commitment for this upcoming academic year already, which is unrelated to your pregnancy, so if they contact you, just explain that you can’t. If you mean calendar year 2019 rather than academic year 2018-2019, you’d have to explain that you discovered you were pregnant after you applied, and thus wouldn’t be available until the summer of 2019 (or whenever). I’m guessing that would be something of a dealbreaker for most visiting professorships, but it would be worth sussing out.

  175. Extremely Shy Anon*

    In my current job I worked as a finance staff in charge of approving invoices for cutting checks to. We get invoices from our organization’s local site admins from various locations. Each local unit is managed by a senior finance manager and the location’s various business correspondents (such as invoices) is communicated mostly with a finance staff supervised by the senior finance manager that deals with the location. The invoices need the approval of the original finance staff that communicates with the unit and a second finance staff that have less communication with the unit.

    I am the role of the second finance staff. In one of the invoices the name under the local unit address is listed a bit oddly. Usually unit admin names are listed in the invoices, but that is not a problem. But the name listed in that particular invoice is not a name I am familiar with.

    I wanted to ask but I feel really shy about it, since I have approved a lot of that type of invoice. I am not sure if there might be something wrong with this invoice, but I feel kind of scare thinking how my boss will react. My boss is usually friendly and patient with me, but I hate to have him know that I might be making a silly mistake for so long (if I am making it).

    I also don’t get along too well with the other finance staff, and I also don’t know how to best approach this. Should I ask the unit admin and confirm with the senior finance manager to see if the info given agrees? My boss is the manager of the senior finance managers, should I go to my boss first?

    My workplace can be chaotic sometimes in that I am assigned to do tasks that I am not too familiar with (unit invoices and payments). My boss tells me just to review if the invoices are addressed to us, but sometimes how the invoices are addressed are a bit murky.

    1. Extremely Shy Anon*

      I also wanted to mention that I am sensitive to how coworkers might judge me or find me weird that I am suddenly asking these invoices after approving them for so long, or that I have been approving invoices that might need to be questioned, or that I am not approaching the correct method to verify the invoices, or that I am not doing my job well.

      I know I should not be this way, but I find it hard to manage my shyness and it is affecting how I approach people/situations.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I understand your anxiety especially questioning an invoice with information that you previously approved. It is okay to just state that. I am double checking. I have noticed that Bart Simpson has submitted many invoices for delivery of skateboards but I didn’t find his name on that department’s roster.

  176. Kat Em*

    Just got paid today and discovered a referral bonus for bringing in a new client.

    I did the math, and it’s almost exactly a week’s pay. Since I’m taking a week off to go to the family reunion in July, it’s functionally like I’m getting paid vacation time! So now I’m just budgeting it that way.

    It’s nice when things work out like that.

  177. KayEss*

    So I have an interview at the end of this month, and I’ve been asked to fill out some paperwork in advance–an official application and background check authorization, basically. I’ve never had to do this for a job before, but whatever. The application has questions on it for whether you use illegal drugs and whether you’d be willing to undergo a drug test.

    I don’t use drugs at all–never have–but I’m personally opposed to making employment contingent upon drug testing where it has no relevance. There are no safety considerations in this position that could be affected by drug use. A drug test feels incredibly invasive and patronizing, a relationship dynamic I’d rather not have with an employer.

    The application also asks if you have a valid driver’s license and auto insurance–again, for an office desk job where it’s irrelevant–so I’m not sure if this is all boilerplate that will be handwaved away, or if they’re actually going to expect me to pee in a cup for them. Do I have any options for conscientious objection here? Or do I grin and bear it because I need the job, which is exactly why employers keep getting away with it?

    1. Nanc*

      The drug testing thing is weird but not uncommon in the US. There are industries where everyone is tested because of insurance regulations–the business can’t get insurance unless all employees are randomly drug tested. My brother works in one. Now his actual job function could be dangerous if he were using drugs on the job, but the receptionist–not so much. Still, for the business to be insurable, all employees are subject to random drug tests. And they’re not just testing for illegal. Certain prescription drugs can prohibit the taker from certain jobs. Ain’t medicine fun?!

      For the driver license and insurance, you can always ask about that in an interview. If it’s required, what’s the reimbursement for using your vehicle for company business? I worked for a State organization and we either had to use our personal vehicles and have a certain level of insurance and were reimbursed (pretty generously, for the time) or use a State vehicle. I always used a State vehicle because if I had to drive hundreds of miles a year I didn’t want the wear and tear on my car.

      If you don’t have to turn in the paperwork prior to the interview I would wait and ask about it at the end of the interview.

      1. anonykins*

        There are also some state laws that could be “forcing” them to test everyone. Ex. in my state, if an employer is going to require a drug test for one position, they have to require a test for ALL positions. So, for example, if you work at a hospital and they want to drug test the nurses/doctors, you’re going to be drug-tested too as a receptionist. It works the other way, too – I’m in academia and not going to be drug tested in my industry in my state because then they’d have to test all the profs…and I guarantee you a good number don’t pass ;)

    2. A Nickname for AAM*

      You should check the laws of your state. I know that when I was hiring in Massachusetts, it was illegal to run a background check until an offer of employment had already been extended. In California and Georgia, it was built into our hiring software that someone would not be sent for a background check until they’d accepted the company’s offer letter.

      If it is in fact not legal in your state to ask these things before the interview, you should proceed with caution because it shows they’re not following the law. The only time I’d say it’s acceptable is if it’s a job where it’s a no-brainer that you’d need to be background checked, ex: you have access to children or the medically frail.

    3. ronda*

      all jobs I have been hired to have had a pre-employment drug test. I don’t think they hire without them, if they use them. They have only done them upon hiring , not during interviewing. (they pay for them so only run them on folks they are hiring). I have always been at large companies.

      I do think it is pretty likely that if you refuse, they won’t interview or hire you.

      I am in the us.

  178. anon-y-mous*

    Union employed folks – have you ever filed a grievance and gotten a successful outcome? I’m meeting with my union rep next week because after 12 months i’m tired of the broken promises – but also deeply skeptical that it will actually yield any resolution.

    I took a promotion a year ago and my position was not backfilled as promised
    In advocating for this I discovered I make 43% less than the person who did my job (with more staff did) 9 years ago. I’m at the very lower end of a super broad payband, seriously there’s an almost 100k swing.
    I have more education and an equal amount of experience
    yes, I am also job hunting

    1. Emily Spinach*

      I have seen successful outcomes, but it does depend on the contract language and the nature of the violation. Sometimes things can suck but it’s not a contract issue. But if your union is good, they’ll try to lay out all the options for you. Good luck, it sounds frustrating!

    2. onionoer*

      I haven’t filed a grievance but someone I know did. She was successful and got the job she had been turned down for (to someone with less education and experience). She’s still in the job almost 10 years later. However it was very expensive for the union, i believe, and shortly after our union dues were increased. She’s the only one i’ve heard of in my org who has filed a grievance.

  179. Seastar*

    I got rejected for a job today, the first I had been interviewed for in nearly two years of searching, and I feel hopeless.

    Due to chronic limb pain, fatigue, and severe visual impairment, there are some basic workplace tasks I cannot do (including driving) and others I can only do in moderation or with accommodations. I try to only apply for jobs I’m absolutely certain I can accept and physically do — and thus I apply to very few. I had serious concerns about the toll this one’s bright lights and heavy lifting would be likely to take on me, even after discussing accommodations in the interview. (I know It’s risky to disclose an invisible disability at that point, and I always wonder if it’s why they rejected me, but mine isn’t fully invisible and I’m terrified of getting and taking a job only to discover that I absolutely cannot do it and must resign). And as a permanent position, it wasn’t one I could ‘try out’ and leave if it didn’t work. It was far from ideal in other ways: a part-time position at a chronically understaffed and financially unstable business, combining customer service I love with cashiering I struggle to do, and they want someone who could later take on other roles I didn’t want. But it had possibly-manageable hours at pay well above the legal minimum, would have drawn on some of my professional skills and passions, and was in easy walking distance so I had no worry about struggling to arrange a commute. I feel like I won’t find anything better than that.

    In 2013, I lost the best job I ever had — seasonal national-park ranger, starting right after college — to absence of funding, and now consider it the irretrievable peak of my career. In 2015, I resigned from the only permanent full-time job I’ve ever had, because I couldn’t manage to live and maintain a commute in a place with little public transit. Since then, I’ve been working very part-time for a very cash-strapped organization, looking for other jobs, occasionally applying for them, and always getting rejected. Despite knowing that I have much to offer, I feel like nobody would want to employ me when a fully-abled person would always be less of a burden. Chronic anxiety and depression exacerbate this impression.

    How do any of you handle uncertainty about whether you can physically do a prospective job? Do you ever accept one you might not be able to do? How do you handle the emotional roller coaster and despair of job searching, and the perfectionistic self-shaming for wasting time pursuing a job you fail to get? I emailed Alison some of this a few days ago and apologize for reposting it here, but things have changed and I’m desperate for a place to vent and not feel alone.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. I don’t really have advice and I’m sure it’s difficult.
      Are there any job placement services for the disabled in your local area or in your state?
      Programs like this may be of help with employment. I know these may not be your state, but hopefully there will be something like that in your area you can contact. Given what you’ve said, you might qualify to get some help and counseling or even vocational training.

      There are a lot of jobs out there now that are work-at-home. I don’t know your specific skills, but I’m seeing this for call center, customer service and tech support type jobs (Apple at home advisor). These types of jobs may be something to consider given your physical limitations.

      https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/disability-employment/
      http://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Disability-Services/ovr/Pages/Employment-Services-for-People-with-Disabilities.aspx
      http://www.edd.ca.gov/Jobs_and_Training/Services_for_People_with_Disabilities.htm

    2. nep*

      I am so sorry you are struggling in this way. Your post is so moving, and I guess I just want to say you’re not alone. I’m glad you came here to share this.
      Job hunting is such a soul-sapper. That sense of rejection and hopelessness feels insurmountable.
      Are there things you’re doing that make you laugh, bring you joy? Are you able to enjoy other aspects of life or has this just tainted everything?
      Take care of yourself. Sending you love and good vibes, for whatever it’s worth from an internet stranger.

      1. Seastar*

        Thank you. This job has tainted everything in the weeks I spent obsessing over it, though it got me to read the contents of this website extensively, which will hopefully prove useful in the future. But I’m lucky to live in a community I love, with many opportunities to do things I enjoy. The job I resigned from in 2015 was in a place where I was isolated and dangerously depressed, and I left so I could return to a livable town. I’m just in such a rut, career-wise.

    3. Grace Less*

      You’re right to consider physical limitations, but it’s because you want a job that is healthy for you – physically, emotionally, and socially. There’s no shame in pursuing a job you didn’t get, or in turning one down that isn’t going to be healthy for you.
      Let’s reframe this – you have a lot to offer. Where would those skills be most appreciated? There are so many, many opportunities for you, and you’ll find a great one. Don’t settle.

      1. Seastar*

        Thank you. Frustratingly, jobs tend to combine my strengths with my physical weaknesses. I genuinely enjoy customer service of the information-providing variety, but it often involves cashiering, which I’ve never been able to do with great speed and accuracy. I love and excel at environmental/natural history education in museums and protected lands, and have had the good fortune to do so at numerous institutions, but those jobs tend to be temporary and/or require driving to and/or on the job, located in rural areas without public transit or big, expensive cities where employee relocation isn’t expected or accommodated. I’m great at science writing for the general public, and have become proficient in administrative support work at my current job, but hand pain makes full-time computer work daunting and dangerous even when I can use dictation software.

        I can craft a good-looking resume to meet the qualifications for some jobs, but often come up short when faced with the physical challenges of a prospective new job’s actual tasks. I know it’s better to reject a job than accept it and then quit or get fired, but taking any job is a risk that has to be worthwhile sometimes. It’s just hard to know when an imperfect fit is good *enough* to try.

    4. ronda*

      I second the recommendation to work with job services for the disabled.

      my cousin was severely disabled from birth and his services did include job placement. I know they first tried to place him at mcdonalds and that was too loud and stressful for him.

      They did place him as a receptionist in an office and he really liked this job and was at it until he died.

    5. Jane*

      I know how you feel. I have two disabilities and because of that, my work history is patchy at best (I’ve done loads and loads of volunteer work, and have a BA with a post-grad cert. but I’ve only held two jobs, with a third one being I ran my own business for a short while.), and it is so demoralising, job hunting. I’m seeing a counselor about this (since I’ve been feeling rather depressed about the whole thing), and she has suggested that I focus on things I enjoy in my life, such as crafting or other hobbies and try and bring more happiness into my life. This actually has helped a lot in terms of making me feel better about things. I try and remember that I do have worth even if I’m not currently doing paid work. With my volunteer work (I volunteer at three different places), they’re always so happy and grateful for my help so that makes me feel better as well, and reminds me that what I do is meaningful to others (just wish I’d get paid for it haha).

  180. P*

    W2 Contractor here. I still have 6 months left before my contract ends, but technically it’s “at will” employment and I”m doing routine work (not any special project). There’s an opening in a different department I’m interested in, offered through the same agency (my employee). What is the protocol? Do I contact the hiring manager first, or the agency first? What is the likelihood the agency will say no?

    1. P*

      Related question – I’m underpaid for the work I do. Current company isn’t the best workplace, but for various reasons I want to stay, at least for another year or so. I’ve been looking for jobs so I could tell the agency, “This company will pay me $X/hr. (So you better match it.)” One question I have is, assuming they want to keep me, if that’s going to prompt the agency to negotiate with my hiring manager instead of trying to pay out of their own pockets?

  181. Gotham Bus Company*

    After a year, I’m still slightly resentful.

    A few of us in my department applied for an internal vacancy. One coworker, Dan, and I were each widely considered most likely to get the job; if I hadn’t applied, I would have supported Dan for the job.

    The curveball is that a third person, Lenny, got the job. However, that is not the part that I resent. What hurt was the subsequent “consolation meetings” with the usual “you were a very strong contender but we were looking for a different direction” sort of platitudes. Granted, they don’t have to offer those meetings, but logic dictates that if one rejected candidate gets a meeting, all of them should get meetings (or at least phone calls). This time, only Dan got the meeting. I can understand that I wasn’t quite what the position called for, but to basically tell me that I didn’t even rate a BS meeting with a pretend apology is bizarre at best.

    Fast forward a year: Lenny has been promoted again and is now running our whole office, while Dan got the job that we both didn’t get last year (so he’s now my immediate boss). My only hope for a promotion now is to wait for Dan to retire in 2028… or to ask for a DEMOTION to a lower, non-managerial title that is eligible for paid overtime.

    1. Anna Held*

      That’s so demoralizing. Is there any chance of getting another job altogether? Or maybe one of the others will. You never know!

  182. CatMom*

    Does anyone have any tips for separating your work self from your self-self?

    I work with kids and while I’m good at it, it’s not actually a role I’m a natural fit for personality-wise, and I feel like it’s beginning to affect my outside-of-work personality in ways I don’t like.

    One thing I’m trying is to create a separate work wardrobe (instead of just buying all clothing I *could* wear to work).

  183. Triple Anon*

    So, I’ve been kind of odd-jobbing it while starting a small business. I’m growing my business slowly, focusing on long-term viability more than making a profit right now. I had one side job that was paying most of my bills.

    That side job fell through this week. They “lost” a day’s worth of my pay. My records show that I worked a full day; their records show nothing. I’ve talked to multiple people about it and they’ve been less than professional. Getting angry at me for asking to be paid! Acknowledging that they owe me money and stating that they don’t know when they can give it to me. Yikes.

    So I stopped working for them. While broke, I got offered another job. I worked and was assured that I would be paid. Nothing. Instead, all kinds of sketchy stuff happened. I won’t go into it here. I’m ok. But I put in a lot of hours for yet another thing. And this was just a few days, no paper work, so I can’t even report the person.

    So now I have a negative bank account balance, no food, about a gallon of gas, the phone company is threatening to disconnect my service, and I don’t have a job or immediate job prospects . . . On the other hand, my business and other projects are going great. Not bringing in income. Just success. Which is something. So I’m going out tonight to talk to people and eat some free food. I’m really working on reaching out to people around me more. I think there’s hope. But geez, what a week!

    1. friday afternoon fever*

      I’m so sorry to hear that! That is super illegal. Google your state + wage laws and send the most senior people you know a very formal letter/email detailing the work you have done, the payment you expect, and the laws it will violate if you are not paid in a timely manner. Ask when you can expect payment. Tell them “I don’t know” is unfortunately not acceptable. They are jerks, and you can return jerk to sender.

      Follow up as many times as you feel is necessary, and then consider filing in small claims court.

      Alison has a good column about this that I basically borrowed all my advice from: http://www (dot) askamanager.org/2015/01/how-to-get-money-an-employer-owes-you (dot) html

      Also, can confirm that this^ should get you paid. If they acknowledge you’re owed, they really don’t have any grounds to say “sorry, we had a bug in our system so we’re not going to pay you”

    2. Anna Held*

      Ugh. Leave a yelp review or something similar — warn others about this if you can.

      I’m so sorry about the cash flow issue. Is there someone you can ask for a loan to get you through this rough patch? This is not a time for pride! And good on you for reaching out to your network! In the wise words of Giles, sometimes, the most grown up thing you can do is ask for help.

      Hopefully, success will soon equal money. Until then, internet hugs!

  184. 40% pay cut for new role - worth it?*

    Currently, financially – it will be little to no hardship. I’m pretty frugal, pretty much a saver and never really upgraded my lifestyle. No loans, no kids, nobody depending on me for livelihood.

    Current gig is really stressful with a very dysfunctional senior leadership. That’s probably why it pays so well. I love my direct boss and my team. BUT – I know that I’m not interested in staying in this field any more and definitely do not want to be in this career path for another 30+ years. Field is super niche so not too many advancement opportunities except running my own dept (which I already know I have no interest in doing). Mostly just burned out from the profession and knowing that it isn’t going to get any better. Flexible-ish schedule but still need to be in the office every day.

    New gig: completely different career field. Something that I’m interested in and think can be really good at. I have skills that will transfer nicely and it will a good learning opportunity that can open up a lot of other unexplored territory. Biggest con: 40% pay cut…and no room for negotiation on the salary front. Trying to negotiate more on the telecommuting (currently at 1 day a week, would like at least 3 days a week since it will also be a huge increase in commuting time also).

    I am an extremely over-qualified candidate for the new gig due to institutional knowledge at my current gig (internal transfer) so I’m a little surprised at the lack of wooing from my would-be boss. Kind of a red flag that they seem very dis-engaged in trying to close the deal (HR contacted me with the offer and news about the salary). I would think that they would be more hands on on the negotiating part knowing about the pay cut but would try to entice me with some of the non-tangibles.

    I usually try to take the stance that money isn’t everything (and it really isn’t) – but 40% is still a bit of a shock. I have quite a bit of PTO (which would be de-valued by this pay cut) and the company contributes to retirement based on a salary percentage match.

    I’m in my early 30’s, so definitely a looooooooong way to go career-wise. Thoughts?? I’m definitely struggling to make a decision.

    1. tab*

      I wouldn’t take that kind of pay cut. You’ll never get to the same level that you would with your current salary, and I’m afraid that you’d look back on this decision as a huge mistake. I think you’ll get other opportunities to change your career path that won’t cost you so much.

    2. Mallory*

      Your current salary matters here, as does how you are paid relative to market. What do you make compared to market?

      What do the benefits look like?

      On the surface I’d say no- you’re young, it’s less money and a longer commute with no clear growth opportunity/new career path, but there are certainly other factors at play.

    4. Overeducated*

      I think if you were going from a job and field you hated to a totally new job and field you’re in love with, and you were currently saving at least 40% of your paycheck, it could be worth it.

      You don’t sound in love with this job. The field may be worth pursuing, but you have qualms about the commute, the pay, AND the leadership. That makes it seem like even if a field switch is the right choice, this isn’t the right opportunity.

    5. 40% pay cut for new role - worth it?*

      thanks everyone for the input! especially since i posted so late. some clarifications:
      – the senior leadership would be completely different in this new internal gig. i’m sorta at the local level right now, and this opportunity is with our corporate level (the company is HUGE: corporate level means exposure to other depts and opportunities). part of my frustration with my current gig is that our local senior leadership is a complete mess…making it really hard to do a good and satisfying job in my current gig. i’ve muttered to my partner multiple times during the last year and a half that “the money isn’t worth it”

      – benefits will be exactly the same but anything that is tied to monetary compensation (like retirement match) will be impacted. i need to stay with the larger organization 5 years to be fully vested in the pension so moving outside of the organization is not an appealing option (at least at this moment).

      – the new gig is a MUCH lower level of responsibility. hence isn’t a particularly challenging role to fill. As in, I don’t have as much leverage because while I’m a very unique and overqualified candidate, they definitely have a lot of other takers that they can train up (I could probably independently function in this role within 1-2 months, vs another person who may take 5-6 months).

    6. Willow*

      I would say wait for another opportunity. 40% and the loss of PTO is too much of a pay cut. Think of all the things you would have to give up to make it work. Also, if you’re extremely over-qualified, they will think you’re going to jump ship the moment a better opportunity comes along.

  185. IE is of the devil*

    I don’t have my own computer at work because my role is not computer-related (think child care/supervising kids). But I do have a few random and occasional things that need to be done on a computer, so I have access to computers in semi public areas (classroom, technical training room)
    Every time I have something not work, it goes like this:
    Me: That thing you wanted me to do in the intranet (or online) is not loading in IE.
    Person who asked me to do it: Try it in Chrome. Nothing ever works right in IE. You’re stupid for using IE, why would you do that?
    Me: I’ll ask the IT guys, AGAIN, to put Chrome on those computers.
    IT: We can’t put Chrome on those computers, it’s too risky. IE is good enough.
    (Software installation – in fact ANY copying to those computers or downloading – is blocked for security reasons.)
    My boss: Why haven’t you done that thing they wanted you to do?
    Me: Bangs head on wall.

    1. UtOh!*

      While I agree with you about IE being a PITA sometimes, there are workarounds in IE that can help. Instead of asking for Chrome, have you asked IT to assist you in configuring IE so it can access the website successfully? As an example, are some websites which need to be added to the Compatibility View Settings (located under the Tools menu). If IT cannot help you access the sites, then there is a bigger problem there.

      On a similar vein, my company is now looking to move away from IE as being our primary browser. Chrome is installed on only a few select computers, mainly in IT, due to IE absolutely not working at all with some of the sites we use to support the company. We also provide computers with DSL access that don’t have the same security policies applied to them as our corporate network computers do, so that users have greater access to websites.

      I can see this issue from both sides, users are frustrated because they can’t access the sites they need, and IT is frustrated because they have to ensure the security of the network infrastructure. It’s a difficult balancing act.

      1. Observer*

        You don’t need to use IE to get security. IE has not been the most secure browser in decades. IE is “EOL” (ie it’s not being updated and only minimally supported), so even though they got it to a pretty decent place, it’e beginning to fall behind, and Edge is a bad joke so far.

        Also, making it impossible for people to do their jobs is never an acceptable outcome from security measures. Especially since it’s a perfect way to totally shred your security. (Shadow IT is NOT what you want if you are concerned about security.)

    2. friday afternoon fever*

      So. IE is terrible, and I admittedly don’t have any IT background or understanding of browser security. But two suggestions:

      1) Could you see if they would consider something that’s not IE or Chrome, like Firefox or Safari?

      2) It sounds like this is really inhibiting your work in a way that you can’t fix on your own. At my company the next step would be to get your boss and IT in a meeting together. Present the issue you’re having, why it’s a keeping you from doing your work, and what you’ve tried to fix it—and then make IT and your boss work it out. It’s officially above your level of authority and they need to decide whether you’re going to get Chrome installed or not get your work done. By putting them in the same room, you’re short-circuiting the feedback loop where you run between your boss and IT and they each tell you something that’s clearly not a solution, but don’t have to be accountable to the fallout because they’re shifting the consequences into you, the messenger.

    3. Observer*

      I’m not sure why you’re handling it this way.

      When you tell your boss (or whoever) that IE won’t load the site, and they ask you “why would you use ie?” tell them that IT won’t allow you to load Chrome. Do NOT say “I’ll ask IT” and then roll over when they won’t load it for you. If your boss pushes, tell him to talk to IT, and when you have access to a functioning computer you’ll take care of Thing.

    4. Willow*

      Yes, this has been my experience as well at work. Many things on our company intranet site don’t work that well in IE, but the IT department has prohibited us from installing any other software on our computers. You need their password to put a program on, if it’s not already on the computer.

  186. Drama Llama*

    I feel frustrated with employees at our company issuing ultimatums over pay increase. As a side note, this has only ever happened with incredibly well paid managers (think way above market rates + bonus + really good perks like a huge personal travel allowance). I would totally understand if someone was actually underpaid for their work, but these guys won’t get their salaries matched elsewhere.

    A lot of our staff have been employed here long term. Sometimes this will be their first job out of school and they’ve stayed on ever since. So I feel like they don’t really understand the realities of the job market. Or they overstate their own value to the company and assume everything will fall to pieces if they leave.

    This is happening with a senior manager now who is asking for a bonus worth 100% of his salary – or he’ll quit. He’s complaining that his pay is so little that he can’t afford to pay groceries. He has taken out a million dollar mortgage, while his wife does not work. So yeah, dude, maybe your money problem stems from something other than your pay cheque – which is around $20k above market rates? I’ve talked to a recruiter already and he said at the rate we were paying we’d have people lined up to work here.

    I’m open to negotiating pay if any staff feel they are worth more. But when well paid staff issue ultimatums like this it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    1. London Calling*

      Do you ask them to salary match against what’s out there and come back and make a case for rises and bonuses? because simply issuing an ultimatum about it is, it seems to me essentially self-defeating, when you’ve said yourself your rates are good. They’re running the risk that you turn round and say to them, if you can get more elsewhere then I’m very happy for you and thank you for your contribution to the company, you’ll be missed.

    2. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      Hm.

      Okay, to lead off – given everything you said, I’m Team Drama Llama on this, and totally Not Team Fergus (is the senior manager named Fergus? He sounds like a Fergus). The major issue isn’t that he’s asking for more money when he’s already paid well above market rate, in my opinion – it’s that apparently his justification for asking for more money is that he can’t afford his lifestyle.

      Now, I’m American, so maybe I’m biased in favor of the corporation as a default. But also…like, that’s not how pay should work, I think. Especially for higher-level positions, what determines your pay should be the value that you bring to the organization. And it reads like he has made exactly zero justifications as to what he’s done for the company that would make it reasonable to give him a bonus equal to his annual salary. It’s not like – let’s say – he saved the company half a million dollars and allowed them to fire two contractors in one year because he’s just that good at his job. He’s asking because of his life situation, which throws the doors wide open to pay discrimination.

      There’s a couple of other things that I do want to ask about:

      First, you don’t mention what average you’re using and whether you’re in a high COL area. Most companies in my area pay above national market…but that’s because I live in one of the highest COL areas in the US. $100k doesn’t go as far here as it does in – let’s say – Ohio. Paying $120k for a $100k position according to my area’s average is different than paying $120k for a $100k position according to the nationwide average.

      Second, I might be reading too far into this, but this paragraph:

      This is happening with a senior manager now who is asking for a bonus worth 100% of his salary – or he’ll quit. He’s complaining that his pay is so little that he can’t afford to pay groceries. He has taken out a million dollar mortgage, while his wife does not work. So yeah, dude, maybe your money problem stems from something other than your pay cheque – which is around $20k above market rates?

      So what I’m reading from this is that you don’t think he deserves a large bonus at least in part because he’s personally irresponsible. If that’s the case, that’s problematic for the same reasons Fergus’s demand is problematic – you’re looking at his personal situation, instead of his job performance.

      Finally…I know what you think, but how out of line are the demands? Does Fergus already get a bonus near his annual salary, for starters? It doesn’t change the answer much (because he’s already being really unreasonable), but it does affect how unreasonable it is.

  187. inthepocketofherraincoat*

    Hi Everyone. I have two questions I’m hoping someone can help me with.

    1) I currently have a situation I’ve never had… I’ve been in my current role for 2 years and am now looking for a new job – most of the positions I’m looking at/applying for are in the Department I currently work in (I work at a major university, these jobs are based at other sites). Because I’m an internal applicant and I’ve, in some cases, had some professional contact with the people involved in hiring, should I be contacting them before I apply? I don’t know if that would be weird or it’s weirder that I don’t say anything first. My current boss doesn’t know I’m job searching.

    2) I’m currently doing a full-time, 1 year Masters degree (UK) while continuing to work full-time. On my CV/job applications, it says my degree finish date is Sept 2018. I’m wondering if I should mention in my cover letter that finishing up this degree won’t impact my work?

    1. BRR*

      1) I would apply and send them a quick email letting them know your interested, have applied, and attach your resume

      2) it’s pretty common to get a master while working. I wouldn’t mention it. Especially since youre almost done

  188. Reinstatement Yay or Nay?*

    Happy Saturday everyone!

    I’m just looking to get some feedback in regards to Reinstatement as a form of mediation resolution. Hoping some of you that are part of making these type of decisions are available to comment.

    I have been scheduled for EEOC mediation and my attorney has asked me to come up with non monetary resolutions as he works on the monetary (case worth) side of it.

    I had filed a harassment complaint internally with my employer and the next day I was put on paid leave pending investigation because of my “performance”. Then a whole month later I was ultimately terminated because of my “conduct”.

    I filed for unemployment benefits and I was granted benefits because the DWD found that my termination was not for just cause.

    The two individuals that were part of my harassment complaint have convinently transferred to other positions in different states.

    As of today my position still has not been filled.

    I truly enjoyed my job and the people I worked with minus the two that were part of my harassment complaint.

    Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!!

    Hope everyone has a great weekend!!!!

  189. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

    Really late, but…I was thinking about the feedback thread. Is there any way at all for someone in a management-type position to get feedback without terrifying the heck out of their team?

    I’m asking because a lot of times, I do want to make sure that I’m doing right by my team, and I…would like to consider myself willing to improve. (This is what every boss says, I know.) But it seems like for a lot of people, giving their superiors feedback on what they’re doing wrong is considered basically a death sentence. Granted, AAM is…self-selecting, but it seems like it’s really fraught and for a lot of people it’s internalized as a bad experience. And I really don’t want it to be like that.

    Obviously, there are a lot of crappy bosses in the world (I mean, otherwise Alison wouldn’t have a website), but…it’s like, I want to hear back about stuff I can do better from my team. I know I’m not great at giving them what they need, and I always want to do better.

    (And yes, I’m partly considering leaving the management career path because I question myself a lot. I mean, I think it’s a good trait to not always be sure of yourself, but I’m realizing that to be truly effective you do have to sometimes lay down the law.)

    1. Willow*

      Some companies allow you to give anonymous feedback on managers. Usually it’s done as a survey that is sent out once or twice a year. I would take that opportunity to give the feedback.

      1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

        We actually…did just have that! I tried to emphasize that it was anonymous, but that’s…actually kind of a lie, because the forms are hand-written. (I made it a point to not look at them at all, but in theory someone could figure out who wrote what.) I don’t know if/when I’ll hear back about that, though.

    2. BRR*

      I have to give feedback upwards and we have to pick from core copentencies. I liked having it be multiple choice instead of open ended.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Too many supervisors take feedback as being criticism (which is usually is) and they don’t take it well or constructively. I can certainly understand an employee not being willing to risk offending you.

      1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

        True, and that’s the problem! I’m trying to be cool about stuff and not be offended by criticism (I like to think I’ve gotten better at that over the years, and this is still a fairly new team for me).

        Part of the issue is that I’m dealing with entry level employees. I’m not much higher up, but I understand that I’m still in a fairly powerful position.

  191. Irish Em*

    I got called for interview on Monday! Woohoo!

    It’s also quite low-stakes for me, because it’s a part-time retail position which would be nice to get but won’t disappoint if I don’t, so yay, interview experience :)
    I’ve been out of work long enough that I forget all my best anecdotes/examples, though, so I’m a bit nervous about the competency questions. Like, I know the Star technique, but if they ask questions about situations that haven’t come up I’m sunk. My fake examples are really obviously fake. The one good thing is that it’s in the same shopping centre that I worked for seven years, so they’ll understand my best examples (whole place got flooded way back when forming an ideal backdrop to my best resilience/teamwork/communication stories). I must think back over my last job to get some new examples. Anyway, that’s my news.

  192. Bella*

    A 30mins podcast on how to have difficult conversations at work with Dawn Metcalfe. I really like the way she talks about some of the older ideas as well as some of the newer (to me) ideas

    When Women Win Ep. 25 – Dawn Metcalfe
    (link in my name)

  193. Fresh Faced*

    Does anyone here ever reply to rejection emails? I’ve never done it but recently I’ve been getting a few ones that are more personal with a “keep in touch” vibe to them. Is it worth replying to those?

    1. Sam Foster*

      I haven’t done so but I generally try and connect with the people I talked to via LinkedIn. Figure it is a good middle ground because people are so inundated with emails.

  194. PersistentCat*

    I got a new job! I’m a bit concerned regarding what to wear though; it’ll be going into the field with a survey crew. I know how the men dress (dark jeans, plaid, dark ts). Any advice for women’s gear? I have good boots, but no jeans that fit… I’m a size 8 or 10 I think, and 5’1″.
    Also any advice for taking a physical job when I can’t quite do all the lifting yet, but I’m working on getting in to shape?

    1. Willow*

      I would wear any kind of pants that you don’t mind getting a bit dirty. It’s unlikely they would be wearing dressy clothes for such a job. Target and Walmart both sell jeans — you could also check eBay and your local thrift stores on the weekend after you receive your first pay check.

      Perhaps get some hand weights to use at home, and practice using them in the evening hours. If you can’t afford hand weights, you could try filling up those big plastic pop bottles with sand or dirt to start with. Or fill up some cloth grocery bags with heavy things from around the house.

      1. PersistentCat*

        Thanks; I actually have an old rotator cuff injury that limits my range of motion, which is part of why I have spent the last 4 years flying a desk. I’m working with a physical therapist and personal trainer to rebuild those support muscles without damaging the joint further. :) Good points with the jeans, I just remember how tight my jeans were on my thighs last time; caused serious chafing issues & limited mobility. I’m probably just overthinking things

    2. MissDissplaced*

      Mimic what the “guys” wear. Looser fitting jeans and darker tshirts, work boots, etc. Nothing tight or low cut.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Echoing what MissDissplaced says. Also be sure your pants fit around the middle. Sometimes wearing a belt helps. No one wants to be mistaken for being the plumber’s daughter. It happens.

  195. Remus*

    So last Friday, my team interviewed a guy who was clearly not a fit for the job. We ended it after the second interview, because he struggled with some pretty basic questions. But this week, before we sent out the rejection, the recruiter got back to us to say that the guy said he was asked some weird questions about his ethnicity. He was a very unremarkable looking white guy, BTW.

    I’m really not sure what we should do. I get the feeling that nothing happened, and he said that because he knew he didn’t pass. I feel like we should blacklist him, but I’m not sure if that’s a good idea. Thoughts?

  196. Ed*

    Hey guys, moderate time reader and first time commenter! I was hoping I could get some advice about a situation I’m in.
    So, the basic timeline is this:
    6/5 – I get a call from a hiring manager for a retail position telling me the spot is open and giving me instructions to log in and print out the receipt/instructions for my pre-employment drug screening. I’m supposed to wait until the next day to do this.
    6/6 – I try to log in this morning. It doesn’t work. I try multiple times throughout the day, waiting a couple of hours each time, in case the hiring manager just hasn’t had time yet. That afternoon I call the hiring manager, am directed to voicemail, and leave a message about the issue.
    6/7 – I try unsuccessfully to get through to the HR helpline to ask about this issue, while also still trying to log in. I don’t call the store again because as far as I’m aware, the hiring manager should already have a message from me, and I know she’s very busy because the store is understaffed and I don’t want to pester her.
    6/8 – I successfully get through to the HR helpline and they tell me that the reason I can’t log in is because my info hasn’t been sent to them, therefore they cannot yet issue me any login credentials. They tell me that this is something that the hiring manager has to take care of. So I call the hiring manager and she’s extremely rude to me, keeps cutting me off, lectures me about taking too long to get in touch about the issue, tells me it’s my fault that I can’t log in because ‘I took too long’ (even though I tried to do it exactly when she told me to), and flat out tells me, “I can’t help you with that” when I tell her that the helpline said that she needs to send my information in so they can issue me login credentials. Then she tells me she’s too busy to talk and won’t be available until next week.

    So the HR helpline isn’t available over the weekend, and apparently neither is the hiring manager. I am still unable to log in. I’m planning to try again on Monday, and if/when it doesn’t work, call the HR helpline again, explain the issue and also that when I tried to call the hiring manager about it she told me she couldn’t do anything about it, and make sure to take down the name of the person I speak to. Then I’m planning to go into the store and speak with the hiring manager in person and reiterate that I followed her direction exactly, but have not been able to log in, and that the helpline told me that the issue is with some part of the hiring process that the organization is responsible for, and not something that I personally have any control over, and make sure to specifically name the person I spoke to and say when I spoke to them.

    My question is, does anyone have any advice or scripts for how to handle this conversation? This woman was incredibly rude to me over the phone and lectured me like a wayward child and basically said that the entire problem is my fault, even though I followed her directions exactly, and acted like even speaking to me at all was a huge burden. I am set off very easily by being talked down to this way, especially when I have done nothing to deserve it. Towards the end of that phone call I had to end the conversation rather abruptly and couldn’t keep explaining myself because I was about to start crying, and I really don’t want to end up tongue-tied and rage-weeping in front of her in the store.

    Does anyone have any tips for dealing with a situation like this?

    1. London Calling*

      I wouldn’t bother unless you really, really want this job. Alison always tell people that the hiring process is two way – you are evaluating them as much as they are evaluating you, and this place sounds like a disorganised mess where it’s always somebody else’s fault. You’ve been on the receiving end of verbal abuse and you haven’t even applied for the job yet.

    2. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      Don’t talk to the hiring manager. Talk to her manager. You probably don’t have much to lose.

      I’d agree with London Calling full-stop, but I don’t think that for the retail sector the interview process is quite that high-minded. Further, I’m not sure how in need you are of a paycheck right now. What I am sure of is that even though retail has a reputation for poor management, that specific hiring manager is way out of line. Even if you hadn’t done everything correctly (and it sounds like you did), her response was wildly inappropriate. Just know that the hiring manager is totally banana crackers, and you can’t control the fact that she was banana crackers (and I assume that if she did this with someone who hasn’t even started work for her yet, she will continue to be banana crackers).

      1. Ed*

        Just uh, an update on this situation… I took your advice into consideration, Llama Grooming Coordinator, and when I called the HR helpline this morning to once more confirm that the issue is that my info hasn’t been sent to them, I also asked if I could speak to whoever was in charge of the hiring manager about the way she had behaved.

        My complaint got passed on to the district manager, who got in touch with the hiring manager, and I have reason to believe the hiring manager just straight up lied to C her own A about the way she’d acted.

        What she said was that she had never intended to hire me, but had intended to hire my roommate. The store is up the street from us, so we both applied at the same time. Apparently she got the two of us confused and did not mean to extend me an offer of employment because, after the interview, she didn’t want to hire me.

        What actually happened, from my point of view, is this: We both went in for an interview. After a week or so, my roommate asked and was told that the position had been filled by someone else. About three weeks later, she called me, asked for me by name, and extended me a job offer. About 5-10 minutes later, she called my roommate as well and left a message. She spoke to both of us at different times during the week and at no point did she tell me I was mistaken about having been extended a job offer.

        Furthermore, my roommate and I are not easy to mistake for each other. We don’t look the same (roommate is black, I’m white), our names don’t sound the same (no similar letters or syllables), our voices are not that similar, and our phone numbers are nothing alike (my roommate’s is a local area code because roommate was raised here, while mine is an out of state area code.) I also opened both the message I left and the phone call where I actually spoke to her with, “Hi, this is Ed JobApplicant”, so unless she just really was not listening or paying attention at all, there’s no way she could have mistaken me for my roommate. And if she didn’t want to hire me, then why was she scolding me for taking too long to get in touch with her?

        Anyway, the DM was pretty obviously on her side. The DM had a very nice customer service voice going and was very polite to me, but also did not respond at all to the fact that my story and the hiring manager’s story were completely different, and just sort of communicated “Well, that’s unfortunate”.

        So that’s the end of that, I guess. I’m pretty upset about it since I really need a job, but in a way I’m grateful, since I obviously dodged a bullet.

        Anyway, I just wanted to give a little update and thank you guys for giving me advice.

  197. Willow*

    I feel like my workplace simply blames support people for anything that goes wrong, no matter who was the cause of it. Example: Last week I was told to put electronic form data into the computer. I was told by the person training me in that I could go by the list of items and prices I was given. Yet not only did I find out later the data was untrustworthy, but I was blamed for having trusted it in the first place. I had even asked the person who sent me the list and copied their support person if there were any more new items to add. They said no. Several days later, I find out they complained to one of the directors that items were missed. I had a. been told I could trust their information, b. added any items they asked me to add, and c. clarifiied if any more items were needed to be added. Yet still I am being blamed for basically having trusted them at all.

    Should I just go to another company? This seems like it is a recurring thing. I have worked for the better part of a decade and 2 presidents at this company. How do I know the grass would be any greener anywhere else? Is there any company where the support staff doesn’t get blamed for other person’s mistakes?

    I feel like even if I added a line to every single e-mail I received from that sender, “Please confirm this request is accurate as stated,” and they confirmed it, and there was a mistake in their request, that I would be somehow blamed for it.

    1. Girl friday*

      Have a meeting with whomever is blaming you and whomever assigned the task to you. Ask them for some task analysis. Accuracy does get questioned but not usually by the person inputting the data unless there’s an extra digit or something.

      2. Willow*

        Well, it gets questioned at my company. However, my manager determined that the request was incorrectly keyed by the person who sent it in, so it wasn’t on me.

  198. Ahhhhh*

    Ugh, I just realized I submitted a cover letter with a typo! It’s an extra single letter…I triple checked it. I grammar and spell checked it…and still missed it. I feel like such an idiot. I spoke to being the go to proof reader and editor at previous jobs, which is true…and then, a damn typo I missed *cries*

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