open thread – July 13-14, 2018

by Alison Green on July 13, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Anonnnnnnn*

    I have created an awkward situation for myself. I am currently about eight weeks pregnant, and my intention was to wait until my second trimester to tell anyone at work. Earlier this week, I was supposed to give an all-day presentation with my coworker, Seamus. I had been feeling incredibly sick all day, and I was very worried that I would throw up while presenting. When we took a break for lunch, I was trying to explain to my coworker that I wasn’t feeling well, and I accidentally blurted out that I’m pregnant. Ugh. I ended up having to tell my boss, Caleb, too, so that we could get coverage for me to leave. Both coworker and boss were so excited to hear the news, but I feel so silly for telling them so much sooner than I planned. Oh well!

    There is only one other person on our team, who is currently on a work trip. I am trying to figure out if I should just tell her when she gets back or wait until the second trimester like I originally planned. I asked Seamus and Caleb not to tell anyone, so I don’t think I have to worry about them accidentally saying something. Pregnancy announcements are the weirdest thing. I’m starting to realize how stressful it is to tell people in the “right” way and at the “right” time.

    1. Happy Friday!*

      I can relate strongly to this at the moment. Announcing your pregnancy is so personal, and I would encourage you to tell your other teammate whenever you are ready. No one should pressure you into it. It is harder since your team is small, but it is still 100 percent your decision to make when it comes to timing.

    2. Temperance*

      I think you need to tell your teammate when she gets back, and swear her to secrecy. That way, there’s no weirdness about you keeping it from her and not them.

      1. AMPG*

        I agree with this – at this point it’s likely to create awkwardness if she finds out the rest of the team knew but not her. The exception is if she’s a known gossip, in which case not telling her is a natural consequence of he not being trustworthy.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Yeah, barring her being awful (which you don’t mention) it’s probably going to be easiest if you tell her and ask her not to let it go beyond her and the other two. Explain that you hadn’t planned to say anything until you made it through the highest risk of miscarriage period, but the nausea and exhaustion started affecting you so much that you felt they needed to know. Being such a small group should help.

    3. A.*

      I don’t think you have to tell your other teammate. No one is entitled that information. If she gets upset she wasn’t privy to your personal medical information at the same time as everyone else, that says more about her.

      I’ve heard through the office grapevine certain coworkers were expecting and I never felt slighted I wasn’t told personally. I also refrain from mentioning their pregnancy until they tell me themselves. Share when you are ready to share.

    4. Susan K*

      Congratulations! Announcing your pregnancy can definitely be awkward, but if it’s any comfort, I think this is the type of thing the announcer thinks about more than the listeners. Most likely, when your other coworker finds out, she will just be happy for you and not put much thought into the timing. I think most people recognize that it is pretty common to wait until the second trimester to announce.

    5. Pregnanon*

      Here to commiserate. I am about 6 weeks now and am so afraid I’m going to just blurt it out during one of my more miserable moments. I would LOVE to get to mid-2nd trimester before people find out at work, but I don’t know how realistic it is. I haven’t had to vomit at work yet, but there are times when the nausea gets intense. I have other worries that I was coming here to post about this very subject, but I’ll post that separately so as to not hijack your post. :) As for outside of work, so far only my partner knows and we told one long-time friend who I know has the ability to keep a secret. I want to tell everyone in my family, but in the event something goes wrong, I don’t want the sympathetic looks/comments from everyone, so the announcement’s gonna have to wait.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        Here’s the thing: It’s entirely your decision, of course, but I can tell you from personal experience that going through a miscarriage and *not* telling people is also difficult. Sympathy can be upsetting, and sometimes really upsetting, but can also be difficult – and I do mean *really* difficult – when there you are, grieving, and nobody has the faintest idea that you have any reason to grieve. There’s pluses and minuses either way. So you do what’s best for *you*.

        1. Grandma Mazur*

          As someone who had two miscarriages before a successful pregnancy, in retrospect I’m very glad I told my line manager as soon as I knew I was pregnant each time, because it meant she was very understanding when it came to needing time off (the first was an unscheduled trip to the ER at 3am on a Monday and the second was a booked appointment a few days after the scan showed we’d miscarried), for both miscarriages and midwives appointments. I do happen to work in an incredibly family-friendly workplace though (a number of colleagues also shared that they had miscarried, which made me realise just how common it is) so YMMV.

          1. Kathleen_A*

            Yes, me too. That’s exactly the thing. I had to bail on some pretty important commitments – and anyway, I was a mental wreck, particularly during my first miscarriage – but everybody (except my immediate supervisor, who was just really weird about the whole thing) was so nice and supportive, but in an unobtrusive way, and that made it much easier. Trying to hide the symptoms, both physical and mental, would have been very stressful for me.

            But I can see why some people would actually prefer to use work as an opportunity to forget about it for a while. So the right approach is the one that works best for you.

      2. Preganon2*

        Gah!! I am 6 weeks along, too! Terrified. I’m wondering whether to break the news sooner, especially since my coworker is going on maternity leave in November and coming back in March, when I’m due…

        I know my coworker told our boss at 11 weeks but didn’t inform HR until about 18 weeks.

      3. TardyTardis*

        There’s a brilliant toon at Breaking Cat News where the cats commiserate with a very pregnant Woman and keep trying to tell her that it’s easier to hack up hairballs on the carpet, rather than in a cold and hard toilet. I mean, they mean only the best…

    6. Aunt Vixen*

      Congrats!

      I had to tell a couple of people sooner than I otherwise would have done, as well, for exactly the same reason; I was sicker in week 7ish than I’d been before then and had to arrange to leave early from a thing – it was disappointing but didn’t ruin anything for me. I hope your colleagues appreciate the importance of keeping this news yours to share.

      And I hope you feel better and then move on to feeling great!

    7. Nita*

      Congrats! I think it would be less weird to tell your other teammate and ask her to keep it quiet also, than to tell them and not her. Besides, its’ very personal info to share, but you do have to share it sooner or later. This kind of thing happens… I once had to tell my boss at six weeks because some of my duties were not too safe for a baby, and a coworker had to tell at eight or so because of really bad first trimester symptoms.

    8. Quinalla*

      It is stressful, isn’t it? With my first pregnancy, I told my both about a week after we found out as I knew he would be cool about it in all ways (including if I had a miscarriage) and keep it confidential and I was falling asleep at my desk sometimes during the 1st trimester and I wanted him to know why. I didn’t tell everyone
      else until about 19-20 weeks as I was not really showing until then. Only our receptionist suspected as I was leaving for a lot of doctor appointments, the rest of my team was congratulatory but didn’t worry about it too much. I didn’t keep it in that long for any reason except it felt awkward to tell everyone. We were a small company, 7 or 8 at that time, but we rarely were all in a room together. I finally just sent an email and then talked to people as well when I saw them next.

      With my 2nd pregnancy, it was twins and I started showing almost right away. That time, I just told everyone pretty much right after my first doctor appointment. At that point I realized for me there was no way I’d be able to hide upset of a potential miscarriage from my coworkers, so I figured I’d tell them and if there was a miscarriage then at least I wouldn’t have the super awkward task of explaining why I was upset. Everything went fine, but it is definitely something to think about.

      I was lucky to never have morning sickness, but I always had extreme fatigue for at least a few weeks of the 1st trimester and was glad I had a good boss I could disclose to without worry. I do think if you have a boss who is cool, it is worthwhile to let them know right away for a lot of reasons.

    9. Juli G.*

      Ugh, I feel you. I was so sick and tired I told people at 10 weeks because it was so hard to hide and my coworker said “Thank God! We’ve been so worried you had cancer!”

      1. Nita*

        Yeah, my parents had to know early this time, because I had some crazy symptoms and they were starting to think it was a brain tumor.

    10. Working Mom*

      To be honest, this situation is quite common in my experience. A lot of moms I know have been ‘outed’ at work by their symptoms. With my first, I planned to wait until second trimester but end up out of commission for nearly two weeks with intense morning sickness and ended up telling my boss (there was a cold going around the office at the time and most people were working through it so I think he was beginning to wonder why I wasn’t as well, if that makes sense). I told everybody else at around 16 weeks or so. There wasn’t any awkwardness about why I’d told some people and not others – they understood that I’d told ‘those who needed to know’ because I was unwell and it affected my job performance but it wasn’t anybody else’s business until I said it was! Hopefully it will turn out the same for you (and, as somebody else has said, if they don’t, that really says more about them than you)

      And congratulations!

    11. Mockingjay*

      I was 6 weeks pregnant with my first. My coworker found out when I almost passed out standing in the doorway to his office, while asking him a question. Fortunately, as the father of three young ones, he recognized what was happening and got me into a chair with some cold water until I recovered. He kept it quiet until my second trimester when I announced.

      There was no concealing number two, as I tossed my cookies every day for 3 months just before lunch, like clockwork.

      I have to say, at that job, people were incredibly supportive of my condition while still respecting my privacy. Hopefully your coworkers will be the same!

    12. govvie*

      You poor thing! Almost the same thing happened to me at 4 weeks because of course 5 minutes after finding out I was pregnant, I was called up for deployment. My boss flipped out because he couldn’t afford to lose me (so not a thing) and I tried to calm him down by telling him it was not going to be an issue, that I would NOT be deploying for medical reasons which sent him into spasms of “oh my god, are you dying?!” Just to make it stop I told him I was pregnant. Then he decided my grandboss needed to know (why, I have no clue!), and at that point I pushed back and told him that I felt appropriate telling him due to the deployment situation; however, this is PRIVATE MEDICAL INFORMATION, and only I am able to share that information and only I will do so as I feel appropriate, necessary, and comfortable.

      And of course while we want to make everything go smoothly and are aware that it can and will impact your office, try to remember that this is YOUR pregnancy not your office’s. You get to make the rules, no one else. Like another commentor mentioned, if your teammate gets bent out of shape about how/when/if you tell them YOUR news, a well placed “I am sorry, I did not realize my uterus fell under your purview?” may be necessary. You can always blame it on the hormones :)

      Best of luck and ginger hard candies were a (discrete) god-send for those nauseous first few months!!

    13. Forking great username*

      I would consider whether it would be less stressful to just kind of let your expectations go and not really care who knows. At first I felt stressed about this just because of there convention of waiting until second trimester, but I ended up with hypermedia gravidarum (aka super severe morning sickness where you end up on IV fluids way too often), and so I just my boss/department what was going on and said it wasn’t a secret. Word spread and the congratulations were nice to here when I was feeling so awful.

      I know for some people having privacy around the first trimester is important. I guess I’m just saying to think about whether you actually care about that or if it just feels like what you’re “supposed” to do.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        The convention is so that people don’t have to un-announce if there’s a problem, which is more common in the first trimester. If the office network is good enough to get the news out without an official announcement, it can also get alternative news out without Anonnnn having to tell more than one person.

        1. Forking great username*

          Yeah, I get the reason behind it – I worked in a smaller department and likely would have ended up telling my coworkers if I was going through a miscarriage anyways, since we worked in a close enough capacity that they surely would have been able to tell something was up. Granted, I realize many people care more about the privacy aspect of it.

    14. Jules the 3rd*

      Just tell her… and don’t get too wound up in keeping it a secret until the second trimester.

      The thing about parenting is: no plan lasts. Life gets so much easier when you internalize that.

      Crossing my fingers for you, hoping everything goes well!

      Sincerely, someone who is still trying to internalize this.

    15. Sled dog mama*

      Congrats!
      Seriously I think this the most stressful part (not hardest but most stressful). With my second I decided to just tell people as it came up which resulted in the most hilariously awkward conversation with a coworker I have ever had. Since I did not officially tell the whole office word sort of got around but shortly after I started showing (mind you i never really lost everything from the first so it was mostly fat) coworker comes into my office and says “this is a really awkward thing to ask but I’m hearing different things from different people and just wanted to clarify, are you or are you not.” I felt so bad for putting this sweet guy through something he clearly felt very awkward about.

    16. anycat*

      congrats! my team was supportive of my journey (ivf mama here) and i really started getting sick at work around the 6 week mark. a lot of women suspected but i didn’t say anything to anyone outside of my team until i started to show and our nuchal screening came back clear.
      my team also kept it quiet until i was ready to share with the wider office (about 80 people). it might help that i’m in HR and we’re pretty good at keeping things quiet when need be. at the same time – i couldn’t have gotten through this without them; they’ve all been a huge source of support during this time.

    17. autumnwood*

      18 years ago when I was pg with my daughter, I too had intended to wait until enough time had passed to make any announcement at work. However, I worked for a hospice organization (in the office, I ran the volunteer program) and was was surrounded by medical people and very experienced grandmas. There were definitely some folks who figured it out – I had a lot of morning nausea and clearly was not feeling my best – but they never asked. One nurse did silently slide a can of ginger ale my way during morning report…and just smiled. A counselor (with bunches of kids and grandkids) wordlessly brought me a glass of ice water. I was so grateful! I *highly* recommend sipping ice water.

      However, I had complications the very morning I was going to my OB for my first appointment (so I was about 16 weeks, I guess?) and was put on bedrest for about a week. That blew that, I had to tell my boss. Everybody was very kind, happy for me, and wished me well. Kid will be 18 in November so everything worked out fine.

      I guess my point is, this is the beginning of accepting that when it comes to parenthood, some things are just beyond total control. OK, most things are beyond total control but it can be reassuring to think otherwise. And there is no one right way or time. You will plan one way and the kid will plan another. Starting at birth. :) Ya gotta just learn to roll with it.

      Congratulations and I hope you’re feeling better soon!

    18. Your Weird Uncle*

      Congratulations! I’ve been in the same shoes as your coworker who is on the work trip. I don’t remember the exact circumstances, but I was definitely the last one to find out – for quite a while – on our team (of about 6 people). It didn’t bother me in the slightest! I totally understood why some people would want to wait and how different circumstances might have necessitated telling some people on my team earlier than others. I vote that you just do what you were going to do in the first place. You’re going through enough stress!

    19. Tangerina*

      You make me so happy I never have to deal with this.

      Since you want to wait to tell person 3, go ahead and wait. Just know that there’s some risk that #1 and #2 may let it slip, so you may not be able to unring that bell.

    20. CBE*

      Well, I would just tell her. I am not a fan of the “convention” of waiting to tell, in case you miscarry. That stupid “convention” means that miscarriage is treated as shameful and something not worthy of community support, and it means many, many women feel isolated as they go through it.
      So whatever, tell it whenever you feel like it. Don’t feel like you have to tell, don’t feel like you have to keep it a secret.
      But truthfully, if 2 people at work know, it’s going to come out sooner rather than later. And another thing I am not fond of is expecting coworkers to keep secrets in the office. It doesn’t usually work, and when it comes out, there’s DRAMA.

    21. Celeste*

      Pregnancy sometimes forces your hand! It definitely made me feel like I was “under new management”.

      Don’t worry about the order of the telling; it is what it is. The only real rule to follow is if someone asks you not to mention their pregnancy, then zip it.

    22. Robin Sparkles*

      I remember this… I have a year old now but the stress of telling my 12 member team was tough. I told them at random intervals but how I handled it is tell boss first (out of courtesy as well as if I was not performing at my usual self he understood), and then told some coworkers I worked most closely with and let them know to tell the others on the team but not anyone else. That also gives people an ability to share but not go off and tell everyone else. For you-definitely tell the one person left since it would be difficult if the others knew and the rest didn’t.

    23. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Congrats! In today’s professional environment, it’s totally normal to say that “I’m pregnant”. However, it is a personal decision because of what other posters stated, e.g., miscarriage, privacy, etc. I feel that women who are pregnant now have more rights and flexibility that was not the case for me 19 years ago when I had my 2nd child. I believe that you will have full support of the team, the company, and laws to protect your rights. Also, it allows for better planning for coverage for your responsibilities when you are out on maternity leave.

      Back in 2002, I landed an amazing role at a TeaPot startup company where my former colleague asked me to join. However, I knew I was pregnant, but didn’t want to divulge it. I only told my manager, who was the CTO and Co-founder, at 16 weeks because I knew that I would start showing. It didn’t slow me down, and everyone was super happy for me.

      Sadly, when we hired a new BigBoss to head up the TeaPot startup, he was so old school and sadly I lost my job. He was not a family-focused nor understood why I took “a few months off”. (Duh!?! – maternity leave/FMLA). Did I sue? No, due to several personal and professional reasons. Looking back, I wish that I did.

      I just hear how many people are taking paternity and maternity leave. The last and most recent TeaPot startup had 1 person who was pregnant but didn’t tell anyone until she like others was experiencing severe morning sickness. Then, the other woman was 5 mos. pregnant and only told her manager and I.

      We are all behind you on your decision!!! You will have the best time being a mom. I know that I wouldn’t have changed it in the world.

  2. Happy Friday!*

    Curious how other managers assign work. My manager emails the team (3 people) to ask if anyone has time or is interested in working on XYZ project. Logistically speaking, this works out fine. But, it leads me to feel this enormous amount of pressure to jump on every project in the name of “stepping up” and “taking initiative.” I am a compulsive email checker, much more so than my two teammates, so there is also a sense of guilt that I should take a project just so my manager isn’t kept waiting. Sometimes I just wish he would send an email saying “Worker X please complete this project.” On the other hand, the broad emails have given me an opportunity to work on things I may not have otherwise done, which stops me from raising the issue with him.

    1. Rainy*

      I too occasionally suffer from helium hand, and I switched to a new role in my office, on a different team, just a year ago, and made my own life harder by volunteering for stuff reflexively for about 8 months. My new team is a LOT bigger than my old team, though, and where on my old team people mostly wouldn’t volunteer for anything, on my new team everyone volunteers to take on extra stuff as they have time, so I have managed to inject some lead into that helium hand.

      I do think there’s a tendency for extra stuff to end up skewed to the person who actually checks their email.

      2. Happy Friday!*

        i love the image and description of “helium hand.” It’s so accurate in this situation.

    2. Anon Today Anon Tomorrow*

      I assign work to my direct reports. Because otherwise I find that the workload can become very uneven. However, I do think that the method you use depends on the type of work. The work I assign tends to be complex large projects that are completed over the course of months. For simpler one and done tasks, I do tend to ask for volunteers from our admin staff (who don’t report to me, but who do that type of work). But, their boss sometimes replies with who will complete that project, so I’m not sure how that is handled.

      1. Working Mom*

        Ditto on depending on what type of work. If it’s work we know about in advance or it’s something that falls very clearly in somebody’s skillset, I’ll allocate directly. If it’s work that just crops up and doesn’t clearly suit anybody, I’ll ask for volunteers.

    3. Naptime Enthusiast*

      We have 3 people on our team and there’s a hierarchy, so it’s a little different (Team lead > me > younger team member). Team lead gets the requests from our manager, and he doles them out according to what our experiences are. Basically, if there’s something that aligns with work I’m already doing, I’ll get those tasks because I can get them all done at once, but if it’s a new task that younger team member hasn’t done, he’ll get it so that he can learn that process. We also have assigned “areas” for our drop-in tasks, so if something comes from a certain group it’s automatically assigned to the corresponding team member. I like this because it prevents tasks from either being dropped or being snatched up in favor of less exciting ones, but if my team lead wasn’t good to work with it would be a nightmare.

      1. Blue*

        This is more or less how my previous team worked. For the most part, it was clear based on our assigned responsibilities/current projects who should be doing what, but we did receive odd request that didn’t have a clear owner. My coworker constantly monitored his email, like the OP here, and would pretty much always volunteer for these things within about 5 minutes.

        I had very mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, I objectively had a lot more work than him, so he should’ve been the one volunteering. But the fact that it was always so immediate – like he was dropping everything to do what the boss asked even though that wasn’t expected – stressed me out and made me feel like a slacker. OP, if you sat on some of those emails for a couple of hours and gave your coworkers the chance to step up, do you think they’d do that?

        1. Happy Friday!*

          One of them probably would step up and take the assignment. But the idea of just not responding for a few hours really stresses me out.

    4. Jessi*

      Can you change it in your head to ‘letting co-workers have a chance to choose their favourite stuff too’? After all if you always jump in before they have a chance too they won’t get to choose the stuff they are interested in.

      1. Meredith Brooks*

        As a compulsive hand raiser this worked for me as well. I also was too much of a team player, volunteering for all the assignments that no one wanted (So much so that my boss had to tell my coworkers they needed to step it up and not rely on me to take on so much stuff — I DIDN’T ASK, IT WAS THAT OBVIOUS.) The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.

        I realized that a) sometimes other people have to do things that suck and that’s not my fault b) sometimes other people deserve a treat and c) I needed to train my mind to better work around my anxieties rather than giving in to them.

        The whole point being… if you consistently volunteer, there’s no reason to think that your boss/coworkers will think you’re not a team player if you sit a few out. Do yourself a favor and treat yourself like you treat them.

        1. Happy Friday!*

          I think your last line is really important. Because it definitely comes down to not wanting to seem like a slacker or not a team player.

    5. Business Manager*

      I oversee a group of admin/data staff. I will usually assign based on skills and interests that I know of or if it seems like a growth opportunity for the staff person. It’s also based on work and stress load already, but I’m grateful that most of my staff are pretty cognizant of their level of work and how much they can take on and will also let me know.

    6. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Maybe instead of “Got IT!” try responding with something like “I’ll talk to Jane and Fergus and we will let you know who is taking this”

      This gives you the chance to acknowledge the request and it will give you, Jane, and Fergus a chance to compare workloads, interest, ability, etc.

      This allows you to still be the one to ‘step up’ but also gives your coworkers a chance to jump in.

    7. Anna Canuck*

      I feel like the point of the Build a Bear promo was to get on the news, which succeeded fantastically. My time is worth a lot more per hour than I could save standing in line to inflict another stuffed animal on my home, but people are RABID for a “good deal”.

    8. Artemesia*

      Since there are 3 people on the team if I were you I would volunteer no more often than 50% of the time and jump quickly on project you WANT to do and then drop back for a couple. Obviously not all projects are equal in time demand so factor that in, but the goal should be to be doing about a third of the project time — Take a big project then pass on the next two or a small project and pass at least on the next one unless you love it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is wise.
        I do volunteer work and find a similar situation. Some of the tasks do not make sense to have other people do. For example, if I happen to be close by I will chime in and say, “I got it!” Everyone else would have a 15 minute drive to do a 3 minute task.
        But, there are times where my day is already full. Then there are some tasks that I am not good at and it does not make sense for me to be doing it.
        Look at each request as it comes along and say to yourself, “Does it make sense for me to do this?” It may boil down to you have done the last three requests and someone else should have a turn. OTH, there could be days where Bob is leaving early and Jane is out sick so again it would make sense that you do the task.

      2. Happy Friday!*

        I like the idea of thinking about it in terms of percentages and think that could be helpful.

      3. TardyTardis*

        Absolutely right. One time my final at college was a group participation project analyzing the current economic difficulties of 1974 (and yes, I am that old). I bravely sailed forth with a couple of canned replies to questions I believed were obviously going to be asked, and then Graciously Shut Up to allow others to participate as well (especially since the prof then started asking stuff I didn’t actually know, but I tried to look like I did).

    9. designbot*

      Every time a new project comes in, the PM loads a project plan into our accounting system, and at the time assigns roles based on availability and skillsets, usually hopefully in advance of when they actually need those people. Then every thursday or friday, the leadership of each team in my office gets together and works out a staffing plan for the following week to balance workloads and make sure everything gets covered—the results of that meeting are sent out to each team Monday morning. If you’re starting a project that’s new to you, the PM will usually come talk to you about it or on a bigger project just invite you to a kickoff meeting so that everyone can get started up at once.
      At yearly reviews and quarterly checkins people have the opportunity to express if they’d prefer to get onto different types of projects, and those preferences are taken into account when making assignments, but we’re rarely able to accommodate individual requests for specific projects on a week to week basis because we’re trying to balance so many schedules and interests.

    10. Dr. Doll*

      I have a thing where the women on my team are WAY more likely to volunteer than the men, and in fact my perception is that the men will try to duck. I don’t allow this to stick, but it does irritate me to hear “I have so much on my plate” from the guys when *I know* who has what, and well, he doesn’t have more than she does.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I had a boss who noticed a similar thing and she started assigning things directly to various people.

        In my own group, I saw that Jane or Bob volunteered for most things. I changed my request to, “Someone who is NOT Jane or Bob, please do X.” I would explain that Jane and Bob did the last 6 requests and I would like to see others volunteering. This actually worked pretty well.

    11. MrsMurphy*

      Speaking from the manageree position: I work in a team with three other assistants, and for tasks that anyone can do we started using a shared mailbox. Managers can dump their work assignments there and we flag the tasks we want/can take care of. It‘s saved a lot of back and forth emailing – and with the email flags, depending on urgency people can sort of mark it for later.

      Downside: It‘s up to us to make sure we have no slackers on the team, but that‘s one thing management defined as our goal, so we sort of jokingly police each other („Bob, finished your report? There‘s a new task that has your name written on it!“).

    12. Jaydee*

      I think it depends on the size of team and type of work, as well as the personalities of the various team members. Making projects available to all team members can be a great way to gain experience in a new area. But it can also be daunting if it leads to an imbalance (Jane and Fergus usually respond faster than Circe and Wakeen, so they either take on a disproportionate amount of work or get all the choice assignments) or if everyone is swamped and the emails seem like kind of a public form of peer pressure and the people who crack first get stuck with even heavier workloads. It also depends – do ALL work assignments come through these group emails, or are some employees getting work from other channels? That’s can leas to people thinking that Fergus is a huge slacker because he rarely responds to the emails. But if he does a lot of teapot design work and most of that is assigned by a different manager or comes directly to him from customers, it might make sense that he’s not jumping on emails about rice sculpture projects.

      I do think if this method is used, the manager needs to be really vigilant about monitoring each person’s workload and occasionally assigning projects or suggesting certain people take on certain projects in order to maintain balanced workloads and fair distribution of assignments. Like, if Wakeen is the llama grooming expert, and Jane is the rice sculpture expert, it makes sense for Wakeen to do the majority of llama-related projects and Jane to do the majority of rice-related projects. If there’s reason for cross-training, the manager can suggest that maybe Fergus or Circe should handle a few llama grooming or rice sculpture projects to get some experience. And if the manager wants Circe to get some experience with more complex projects but Jane hogs them all up, it makes sense for the manager to say “thanks for volunteering to take all 10 new rice sculpture projects Jane, but I think it would be good for Circe to get experience with some basmati and jasmine rice sculptures, so let’s transfer a couple of those over to her.”

    13. Bethany*

      We have a meeting at the start of every week where we say if we have too much work or not enough, and what’s coming up in the next few weeks.

      This allows people to identify when they need support, and our managers can delegate based on this information.

      I think it works really well!

  3. What's with today, today?*

    Could some marketing and PR folks weigh in on the IHOB promotion and the Build-A-Bear day from hell?

    I’m dying to know if IHOB ended up being a brilliant move, and what in the world happened with BAB yesterday?

    1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      Everyone I know knew the IHOB theme was a stunt from the moment it started. From what I could tell, it annoyed IHOP’s loyal pancake customers and didn’t win them any burger fanatics … but on the other hand, it might have gotten people who had forgotten there even was such a thing as IHOP (raising my hand here) to start thinking about IHOP pancakes. So in short, it really seemed dumb to me… but maybe it did work? I’m curious too.

      Build-a-Bear… those bears are only worth about $1 or $2 anyway, so I guess I can understand anyone with young (and bear-craving) children going into a frenzy to get the bears for the price they’re actually worth. I got an ex-girlfriend a bear once and it fell apart pretty quickly. How does a stuffed animal fall apart?

      1. JeanB in NC*

        I went to IHOP last week with a friend and she did decide to try a burger based on the advertising. She said it was nothing to write home about.

      2. Rainy*

        My darling fiancé made me a custom bear by remaking an old BAB he got on ebay for my birthday a couple of years ago and it was AMAZING and has not fallen apart at all. Although because of the TYPE of bear it is it’s not something you cuddle overmuch, so maybe that helps.

        Honestly, for longevity of stuffed toys, 80s manufacturing can’t be beat. I have a Pound Purry from my childhood that has survived hundreds of washings, dozens of moves including two international ones, AND being teethed on by a puppy. Her eyes are pretty scratched up and she’s lost some shaping but her stuffing just keeps bouncing back. :)

        1. Future Homesteader*

          I have a Pound Purry from 1988 and he’s also been teethed on and discolored, but otherwise he’s in great shape!

        2. Artemesia*

          Pound puppies and purries are the greatest stuffed animals ever made. We have 8 or 9 of them of all sizes from when my now middle aged children were young and the grandkids love them. They can be washed, they make great neck pillows when traveling and kid pillows. They are cute and cuddly — altogether great and high quality product and they sure have lasted. I remember making a pound purry birthday cake for my daughter when she was about 7.

        3. MissMaple*

          That’s awesome! I’m pregnant and I was looking through some old pictures of when I was a baby with my mom. I saw my pound puppy in nearly all of them! He looks the same today as in 1986 :) I’m hoping to pass him along to my little guy.

        4. JeanB in NC*

          I have a stuffed tiger I received for my 14th birthday, which I loved and cuddled with and used as a pillow for years. He is still around 40 years later! (I don’t use him as a pillow anymore though.)

        5. FuzzFrogs*

          You’re not kidding. My childhood stuffed animal was a Puffalump, and while I did have to retire my original when I was about 10 (I had literally worn the fabric through in some places, plus an incident with the washing machine), but the second one has lasted a few decades. They’re incredibly soft, too, without being furry or fleecy, which seems to be a lost art in children’s stuffed animals.

      3. Tangerina*

        I really dig build-a-bear and was pretty into it in high school. This just goes to show that people want the product, they just don’t want to pay those outrageous prices. This is that whole tricky thought exercise of should we keep prices lower to get more business or raise prices so that the product is more exclusive and we profit on the higher margin?

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I saw a meme on Facebook this morning that said “I’d rather pay my weight than deal with that nonsense” in regards to the Build-A-Bear thing.

      1. Pam*

        That’s my attitude for a lot of those special deals- I will not stand in line for much of anything, let alone free doughnuts.

    3. Bacon Pancakes*

      I have no marketing or PR experience, but yeah WTH happened there! I think my favorite part of the article I read was that in order to get the “pay your age” scale, you had to sign up for the BAB club where one of the benefits is that you pay your age for a bear during your birthday month. SMH
      On top of all these parents that want to be “reimbursed for their trouble”. Yeah, I am pretty sure they aren’t going to pay for the wasted day of daycare, gas, and your day off work.

      1. Iris Eyes*

        Yes, I saw some posts on the average earnings/savings per hour. I really hope hourly workers with no PTO didn’t take off work for the event thinking to save money based on the numbers I saw.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        That’s kind of hilarious. “We took a day off work, kept our child home from daycare, and stood in line for hours to save $10! You owe us day’s pay + daycare + gas!”

        At least when so many people make that kind of bad decision in response to this kind of stunt, I can better understand how someone somewhere thought this stunt was a good idea.

      3. KMB213*

        During your birthday month, you can get one specific bear for your age – yesterday’s promotion was that you could get any stuffed animal free. I guess it was kind of a success in that more people now know about the free bear during your birthday month promotion – the clothes are accessories add up really quickly at Build a Bear, so, even if you’re getting the bear free, you’re probably still dropping at least $20 on the stuff to go with it.

        I mean, yeah, obviously still not worth standing in line for, but I could see people waiting maybe a half hour or something to get any bear for their child’s age.

    4. Spooky*

      I feel bad for Build-a-Bear. It was a great promotion–the only problem was that it was TOO good, and they weren’t prepared for the crowds.

      1. Jesca*

        Yes, exactly. In business management, I learned that it can in fact cause some serious issues if the demand of your specific product outweighs your actual supply. This actually kills online service companies faster than anything else. B-A-B will obviously recover, but none the less, the bad press will probably cause them sales issues for a while.

        Simply put, you cannot run a bigger-than-black-Friday promotion without considering crowd control and control of the product distribution. They ticked off the malls and shopping centers they are located in as well. And please keep in mind that the majority of people don’t just go buy these bears for their kids. The entire process pretty much guarantees the children have to be there as “building” is part of the bear experience. Have you ever told a kid that maybe you will go to the park later? Have you ever stood in line for anything with children? This notice was sent out via email with the assumption it would not *be* the way it turned out to be. It was really poor planning.

        1. Antilles*

          And please keep in mind that the majority of people don’t just go buy these bears for their kids. The entire process pretty much guarantees the children have to be there as “building” is part of the bear experience.
          This is the part about it that seemed strange to me – the whole point of Build-a-Bear isn’t to just show up with a stuffed animal, it’s the kid getting the chance to look at the bears and pick one and build it and name it and blah blah blah. So there’s definitely going to be tons of kids there (not a demographic generally known for patience) and if things start to get backed up, there’s no magic elixir to fix it and make the line go faster, so it just snowballs.

          1. Jesca*

            Exactly. And anyone who has ever asked a kid to pick out a toy knows choosing is not something that happens quickly at all. Like you can be a build a bear a LOOOOOOONG time just choosing lol.

          2. Jaydee*

            And BAB is ridiculous and overwhelming on a regular busy day (kids running around and screaming, high on the prospect of a stuffed bear with $80 of clothes and accessories). Since the deal was only on the bear itself and none of the excessively overpriced accessories, you’d still drop a zillion dollars but also endure a zillion times more chaos. No thanks!

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        But the crowds were entirely predictable. They should have offered online appointment scheduling, or handed out tickets to the first X number of people in line, or done a virtual lottery, or something like that.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          THIS. Totally predictable, to the point where it irritates me that they were apparently so caught off guard by the crowds.

        2. OhBehave*

          I saw this with a ‘black Friday’ viewpoint. If people are willing to camp out the day before in order to get a great deal on xyz, they are certainly going to flood to BAB for a promo deal! What on earth were they thinking? To say that this was promoted via email only was nonsense. This was all over social media.
          What some entreprenuerial person should have done was to rent a kiosk in malls and sell accessories for these animals! They could have made a killing. I used to buy my daughter off label for her American Girl dolls.

      3. Bears For Everyone!!*

        I’ll give you my experience as someone who did get a bear. I went with my daughter-in-law and 2 yr old grandson (mainly as support for my DIL). She had gone there the day before to check it out and see which one they wanted to buy. While she was there, she found out that they were going to open at 9 instead of 10. They weren’t advertising the fact, but would tell anyone who asked. I am guessing they thought the lines might not get long so early if people thought they didn’t open until 10.
        We got there around 8am and the line was kind of long, but not anything we didn’t expect. We had brought breakfast/snacks and a tablet with games/shows on it for my grandson. The security did a good job of keeping the lines going, but I know this was a hard day for them! It actually all fell apart once we got in the store.
        If you have ever been in one, you know the stores are not that big. We grabbed our animal right away, but then had to figure out where the line for stuffing was. It was crossing with the line to pay (although at some point the lines did get moved apart). I think people were cutting in the stuffing line, because that line did not move at all for the longest time. And after finally getting the bear stuffed (and they still made me do the wish thing! That’s fine for the kids, but grandma didn’t care and grandson was watching a movie and didn’t care either!), we moved to the paying line.
        They only had 2 cash registers so this took a while too. Although finally, after getting in line 4 hours previously we were free with our bear!
        If they do this same promotion again, they will need to rework how things went in the stores. If they would plan out the lines better and get more cash registers (or even something like Chick-Fila has with a portable cash register thing that you can carry around) it would have helped so much. And the faster you get people out of the store, the faster you can get more people in, and the faster all the lines move.

        1. LDP*

          As someone who works in marketing for a mall that has a Build-A-Bear, you’re completely spot on with how this should have gone!
          So, as part of my job I very regularly get emails from the corporate headquarters of the different stores about events or sales. They didn’t mention anything about this promotion until Monday morning. Even the manager here at the store didn’t find out about it until then. And she was panicking about making sure they had enough stanchions for lines both inside and outside of the store, and about crowd control. I also know they didn’t announce until Tuesday that they would be opening their stores an hour early, and that wasn’t until later in the day.
          From a marketing stand point, I think this was a decent idea that was horribly executed because they weren’t properly prepared. From all the emails I got leading up to the event, it seemed like they hadn’t really thought through the, “What if this goes viral?” type of thing that you have to take into account these days.
          I’m not sure how it was handled at other malls, but I do know that our security team worked their butts off to keep the peace and keep the crowds (relatively) happy. But people are mad, and I totally get why. I’ve been answering phone calls and Facebook messages all yesterday and even some today from people complaining. I’m curious to see how their sales do from here on out.

          I will say though, a lot of our other retailers were thrilled with the additional traffic it brought in. So at least that was a bonus for our location!

          1. OhBehave*

            It’s so hard to believe no one thought of the viral factor! This promo was all over social media this week. I feel for those store managers who were ill-prepared for this mayhem. What if they were running low on supplies already? People thirsting for a deal can be unreasonable instead of thankful for the opportunity to score a deal. I’ve been a retail buyer and store manager and know the people I speak of :)

    5. Weak Trees*

      I’m absolutely convinced that the IHOb thing was never intended to be a promotion and they’re just trying to gracefully back away from the abject failure…In which case, I suppose their Marketing folks should be celebrated as heroes for the story they eventually came up with.

      1. CTT*

        I don’t know, they would have had to put so much money into actually changing the name of the individual restaurants (with departments of state, with local business licenses, etc.) that they would have had to have put a lot of thought into it, and presumably would have done market testing to see if it would have worked. Or maybe this WAS the market-testing for a name change.

        1. What's with today, today?*

          I know the manager at our local IHOP and he said they never intended to change anything but the paper signage inside. I felt sure it was gonna be Breakfast or Brunch. Burgers threw me a bit.

        2. Weak Trees*

          Yeah, I should have been clearer. I think it was along the lines of “This is a great plan, let’s put out some feelers to see how it will go over with the publ-ABORT! ABORT!”

    6. Laura H.*

      I’m not a marketing person but as a retail worker- That’s not a great way to do a promo.

      It’s a good promo but the execution was oh so spectacularly BAD.

    7. Bea*

      They’re talking about build a bear. They had 5000 ppl and riots. I can’t even wrap my head around it.

      1. A username for this site*

        I think it seems absurd, but then again, there are huge lines and fights on Black Friday for stuff that’s really not that great. What’s going on is that it’s a chance for people who normally can’t afford those things to have a slice of “something nice” to provide to their kid for once. People in that mindset get desperate, because it’s their only choice to provide “something nice” to their child, instead of the off-brand toy from Walmart or Dollar Tree.

        A lot of people mock and criticize Black Friday and the like as excessive materialism, I think it’s just sad to watch the bottom of the economy fight over crumbs dangled from the top of it. It’s disgusting and shameful for companies to exploit people like that.

        1. Artemesia*

          I’m with you. It is easy to dismiss ‘materialism’ when you have all the stuff you want.

        2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Yes. This is why I hate what black Friday has become. Especially when much of the time the discounts aren’t even that great, yet somehow the marketing convinces people to spend more than they can afford. It’s very exploitative.

    8. Deryn*

      Not a response to your question, but I had to jump in and mention how much I love the Empire Records quote in your name!

    9. Jane*

      I don’t know if I’d call the IHOB thing brilliant but it got IHOP a lot of press even if everyone knew it was a stunt and when was the last time IHOP was mentioned in the news? It was a silly stunt that I think everyone knew was a silly stunt but it seems to have worked out pretty well for them. It’s the kind of thing you can only do once though. If they do this all the time it will blow up in their face.

      Build-a-Bear was a hot mess and I honestly don’t know what they were thinking. The bears are overpriced (yes, I know you are paying for “the experience” but after clothes you’re looking at a $40 bear. So of course people would jump on this. And they should have had a system in place to deal with this. Sign up online for a voucher – and only make 1,000 vouchers or something. Everyone else gets a really good coupon. With that one I have a gut feeling that there had to be a few people in their headquarters who were like “Guys, this isn’t a great idea and I think this is going to be bad if we don’t account for crowds and massive interest” only for them to not be listened to. They didn’t investigate or plan for the worst case scenario. I mean, just do a basic SWOT analysis of these sorts of endeavors and you’d see the threats to the organization that could result.

      1. Cousin Itt*

        With Build-A-Bear, I think perhaps they put the promotion on schoolday thinking that that would exclude most children over 5 and thus reduce demand, not realising the amount of parents willing to yank their kids out of school for a cheap teddy.

        Apparently in the UK they did give away £12 off vouchers to people who got fed up of waiting in the queues

        1. Jesca*

          In the US, we don’t have school during most of June, July, and most of August. That is why the stores to close were in the US and Canada. They actually have a lot of kids and parents with not a lot to do other than go to build a bear lol.

        2. What's with today, today?*

          It’s summer break across the south. I don’t know about other regions and Canada, but in Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas and Oklahoma at least, (I live in the 4-state region) school is most definitely out. :)

        3. Belle of the Midwest*

          It’s mid-July and I think even the balanced calendar school systems are still on summer break. They might have thought maybe people would be on vacation/traveling, etc.

          1. Jaydee*

            Oh, that’s not going to stop kids from wanting a bear. One of our BABs was purchased while on vacation.

          1. OhBehave*

            Typically schools dismiss the end of May to mid-June and resume mid-August to early September in the US. There are a few year-round schools in the country but not a ton (at least in Illinois).

        5. Cousin Itt*

          Woops, sorry guys I had no idea there were such long summer holiday in the US – in Blighty we don’t break up until late July and go back early September and several articles on the promotion here talked about parents taking their kids out of school to go buy a bear

    10. Falling Diphthong*

      I had missed both of these. IHOB is strange but as Librarian says, does make one think about eating pancakes at ihop. (IHOP has had burgers as long as I’ve been going there. I strictly order crepes with lingonberries, but it has always had all your basic American Restaurant foods on the menu.)

      1. Kat in VA*

        Another lingonberry lover! *high fives*

        Wait.

        That sounds weird.

        High five anyway!

      2. Gingerblue*

        I’ve never been to an IHOP, but if they have crepes with lingonberries I may have to find one!

    11. Persimmons*

      Businesses doing badly at their self-promotion is a trend this week.

      Online tech circles have been snarking about how Nordstrom’s site is chronically difficult during the annual sale (happening now) and that they spend all their money on marketing/instagram “influencers” and not enough on IT infrastructure.

      1. Jesca*

        I think this is unfortunately true for so many retailers, and with Nordstroms it is just going to be ten times more noticeable. It is why Amazon is killing it!

        1. What's with today, today?*

          I’m gonna have to google their issues. I have a sweet friend with a daughter interning at Nordstrom this summer.

      2. Sue Donym*

        I actually interviewed there not too long ago to work on web and app stuff. The people I interviewed with were unaware that Nordstrom has a customer feedback option where users can post issues they’ve had with the site/app. Someone representing Nordstrom is responding to those user complaints within the site, but I don’t know who because I assumed it was in the purview of the people I talked to!

      3. Jubilance*

        That happened last year too! Really frustrating but I get it – Nordstrom has been struggling and they aren’t making the investment in their IT infrastructure…but thats also the thing that could help them turn things around. Vicious cycle…

      4. Antilles*

        That’s because the sad truth is that nobody cares about infrastructure (both real world and IT infrastructure) until it fails catastrophically. Required maintenance? Upgrades? Meh, it looks just fine to me, let’s spend the money elsewhere.

    12. tink*

      I was actually hoping the IHOB thing was going to be them sorta soft rebranding and focusing on a better, more narrow menu with a brunch-y focus. In that aspect, the silly rebrand to “burgers” (especially since I live in an area saturated with actually good and affordable burger joints) was a huge disappointment and made me want to go there less.

      I’m guessing the BAB was a fiasco on the “out of supplies, out of bears, out of everything, people lost their minds” level? Feel bad for their retail workers, who surely don’t get paid enough to deal with that crap.

      1. Jesca*

        I agree. I live in an area where people like to eat out. Like, A LOT. Our area has more restaurants than anywhere else I have ever lived or even been to. And in a ten mile small city and suburban spread, they even have many duplicated chain sit-down restaurants. One on the one side and one on the other. We have one IHOP. IHOP actually doesn’t do too well here, because even the chain options have a hard time competing with locally owned restaurants (which outnumber the chains interestingly enough). Their “re-branding” was dumb whether it was a publicity stunt or not IMO.

      2. What's with today, today?*

        We are in a really small town with few choices, one is IHOP, and we still try to only eat at the local, mom and pop places. I can’t imagine ever ordering an IHOP burger. I think it’s been 3-4 years since we’ve even been for breakfast!

      3. Antilles*

        Agreed. Rather than emphasizing burgers, I think they would have been better going the other way and just accepting that they’re a breakfast/brunch/pancake place.
        Also, I legitimately can’t imagine a scenario where I’d specifically go there for a burger. If I’m going for a quick and cheap meal, they can’t compete with a fast food place on price or convenience. If I’m going to an actual sit-down restaurant, there are like 20 different burger-only places around.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          Well, unless I’m misremembering, IHOP did do a promotion a few years back talking about making improvements to their pancakes. Which is good because honestly, the pancakes weren’t all that great. It takes more than globs of butter, lakes of syrup and heaps of whipped cream to make a pancake good. I haven’t been in there since they upgraded their pancakes, though, so I don’t know how effective the initiative was.

    13. It'sNan*

      I saw today that Chuck E Cheese is doing the pay your age thing today, at least around here. So they must’ve thought it was worth while. I,for one, can’t understand that the Bear people didn’t see that mess coming a mile away.

  4. The Other Chelsea*

    Anyone have any advice or resources on how to best negotiate salary when getting a promotion? Nothing is official yet, but the position is being created for me and it would be a big jump in workload/responsibility. In one of our meetings, my manager informally floated a salary that would be a slight bump from where I am now, but 7-13K less than the median salary for someone in that type of role. My past attempts at negotiating pay raises with this company have been very frustrating because my manager has to get raises approved by overworked grandboss who always demurs, despite my outstanding record with the company.

    1. Anon-J*

      I recently got a promotion and I knew that my salary increase was unlikely to be market rate for the role – I am familiar with our budgets and a bigger jump for me would have meant less available for people below me (who need the salary bump more than I do). I addressed head on with my boss that I acknowledged both of those things and explained that there are other things of value that I would appreciate including more time off, more schedule flexibility, and more work from home opportunities. I ended up getting an additional week of paid time off along with the other things I mentioned.

      My advice in negotiations is to approach it as a package. Not just pay, but time off, benefits, professional development opportunities, and other things that are of value to you. You may not get them all but by presenting a package you’re more likely to get more out of it.

    3. Annie*

      I think promotion is a great time to negotiate. Don’t let the foot-dragger get you down – the company wants more work and responsibility from you – a small bump is not enough.

      Discuss with your boss soon – so the paperwork reflects your negotiated salary instead of the small bump, although you can still negotiate even afterwards.

    4. designbot*

      First, I wouldn’t get hung up on not being at the median for the role when you’re newly promoted into it. Be aware of how long people stay in that role/at that level, and target being at the median at the midpoint of that, not on day 1. So if people tend to stay in this role for 10 years, being 7k below the median may be just fine, but if people only stay at this level for 2 years, then that’s a problem.
      Second, I think I would level with your boss and be like hey, I feel like you and I are in alignment on my value here, but that you tend to have trouble getting those numbers past upper management. What do you see as getting in the way of that and is there anything I can do to help? This may mean that you provide him documentation of your successes, or it may bring up something very different, like that you need to get on projects that’ll get you more facetime with these people.

        1. designbot*

          I always feel like you and I agree on stuff, and keep attributing it to being in adjacent industries :)

        2. Sadie*

          But I feel like the research into the wage gap bears out that this is part of why men make more. Women(logically and understandably) tend to think, oh, I am just starting I shouldn’t expect the median salary. Men are more likey to say “oh, X carries a salary of 80-100k with 90k as median. So I should get at least 90.” Particularly where, as here, they are creating the position for this specific person. And maybe you don’t get 90 (and maybe the man doesn’t either, but maybe he gets 85 instead of 80, and that happens repeatedly over his career.)

        3. Sadieboo*

          But I feel like the research into the wage gap bears out that this is part of why men make more. Women(logically and understandably) tend to think, oh, I am just starting I shouldn’t expect the median salary. Men are more likey to say “oh, X carries a salary of 80-100k with 90k as median. So I should get at least 90.” Particularly where, as here, they are creating the position for this specific person. And maybe you don’t get 90 (and maybe the man doesn’t either, but maybe he gets 85 instead of 80, and that happens repeatedly over his career.)

      2. The Other Chelsea*

        I really appreciate your insights and ideas. I think the really tricky thing here is that I’ve been taking on a lot side projects that were falling through the cracks in addition to the assigned tasks that make up my current role. I could only do so much, working around regular work duties though. In my new role, I’ll be moving departments and taking those projects (and a few more) on full time, which means that I’m going to hit the ground running.

        The role falls somewhere between entry level and mid level, but I’ve been researching using entry level salaries since I think even that will be a fight to get. I could see having this title (with room for additional responsibilities and raises) for 5-10 years if things go well, but in the overall industry, someone would probably be entry level for 2-3 years and mid level for 2-20. Given that I’m already up to speed on the tasks of my new role, I think it’s fair (maybe more than?) to shoot for the median salary of entry level.

        I do like your idea of leveling with my boss to see if we can tackle this from a different angle. We have a very good working relationship so maybe I can glean some insight there. I don’t think they realize that they’re not competing with my previous salary, they’re competing with positions at other companies. I don’t want to leave but I also don’t want to work here knowing they undervalue me by that much.

        1. Working Hypothesis*

          ” I don’t want to leave but I also don’t want to work here knowing they undervalue me by that much.”

          I would say exactly this. It’s easy for someone to think, “She had been comfortable before the promotion with X money, and now we’re giving her more than that. Why isn’t she happy?” If you frame it as, “The value across the industry for people in my new role is X. If you pay me less than that, you’re telling me that you value me as a less-than-average employee. If you pay me below even the bottom of that range, you’re telling me that you value me as a *terrible* employee. I hope that is not what you want to be saying through the salary you offer,” they may get the message better. (Of course they also might try to reassure you that you are valued with words alone, not money… to which the answer is “I really appreciate the kind words, but it still bothers me that the company’s actions aren’t in line with its words. It matters to me to be *shown* that I’m worth at least as much as the average new employee in X role; not just told.”)

        2. Left the Rat Race*

          Of course they realize that they are competing with positions at other companies. They are just hoping or assuming that you don’t realize that. NEVER lowball yourself. If you should be making $90,000 at your new position instead of 60-70K now, then that is what you negotiate. Research the other ways you can get the total remuneration up to that, be it in more vacation time, better benefits, personal development, like tuition reimbursement or other training.
          Do not accept a promotion that is in title only. At this point, you should also be looking at other companies so that if you don’t get the money you deserve you have already started making eventual exit plans. That way you can take this internal job at the lower pay but know you are actively looking for more. And it goes without saying that you say nothing to your coworkers or boss about this.

    5. BRR*

      I would determine your target salary and pull as much information as possible that supports that salary (easier said than done). When a discussion happens about the promotion, if salary is not discussed I would ask “what will the compensation be for this new role?” Don’t wait for them to talk about it. If they low ball you or ask you for a number, I would say something like “I did some research on what this type of role pays and I’m hoping for $X.” I would aim a little higher than your target incase they don’t meet it (and if they do, that’s awesome!).

      I personally wrote out a script and practiced it a lot. That way I was always ready to respond. I think sometimes it can be more difficult to go back and discuss it rather than reply in the moment. Based on what you’ve said, I wouldn’t start the new roll until the pay is finalized so you don’t end up with a higher up role and don’t get the raise until several months later.

  5. ConflictedScientist*

    Any other corporate scientists out there? This was brought to my mind by the question yesterday about a passion for work versus pay. For a variety of reasons, after getting my PhD I decided to transition from academia and work at a company (one that’s not curing cancer or any other lofty goal), but stability and pay did factor strongly into it. As everyone else I went to school with struggles to get academic positions and apply for grant after grant, I don’t regret my decision. But whenever I talk to someone in academia, they always imply that I “sold out”. Once another scientist knows that I work at a company, they just shut down and the conversation often ends. The city I live in has a large research university, so even many other people who aren’t scientists rank academic scientist as the only worthy career in the field. Partially from their judgement and partially from my own psyche, I do feel like a sell out. My company treats the scientists well, but the projects I work on are never going to save the world or save someone’s life. Has anyone else figured out how to accept being a scientist at a company and making the mind shift from “saving the world” to “getting a paycheck for developing products that a company can sell”?

    1. BlueWolf*

      I’m not a scientist myself, but I ran into a similar situation. I had previously interned in non-profits/public service types of roles. However, the nature of the job market meant that I ended up working in the private sector after college. I was applying for a new job about a year and a half ago at a mid-sized law firm and when I asked a former supervisor about being a reference she was fine with it but asked if I was going to eventually go back into public service or non-profits. I definitely felt a bit like a sell-out, but the fact is the DC metro area is expensive and I like having a decent salary and benefits.

      1. ConflictedScientist*

        I’d say that it’s good to know that it’s not just the sciences where that happens, but ugh, that’s actually awful that there are so many fields out there with similar mentalities.

    2. Pam*

      A lot of the scientists in academia aren’t saving the world, either. It’s the ‘My dog’s better than your dog’ syndrome.

    3. Susan K*

      I think the scientists in academia are being silly and short-sighted. What is the point of doing research if there’s no one to take the results of that research into the world? If they do find a cure for cancer, they’re going to need corporate scientists to develop mass production techniques so it can be sold to the people who need it. And just because your projects aren’t going to save the world or save someone’s life doesn’t mean they’re not worthwhile. Whatever it is that you’re working on, if it’s a product that people are willing to buy, it’s probably something that can improve their lives or bring them a little bit more happiness. Think of all the products you use in an average day. Most of them are not essential for sustaining your life, but aren’t you glad that someone “sold out” enough to create them?

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      Lots of academic research isn’t saving the world, either. And many universities have an office of technology transfer specifically to try and find some regular product applications of their researchers’ work. My bil started a consulting company with one of his professors just before finishing his PhD, so I think the purity of the ivory tower thing you’ve encountered is unusual.

      For the local judginess issues, it might help to view it as a variation on “If people quit, what does that mean about my grinding out 3 post docs?” And the related mystification of hearing that someone has left your group, like Star Wars fans or government service or community agriculture coops, when it’s still the dominant thing shaping your days.

      1. Rainy*

        Yes. At least some of the pushback ConflictedScientist is getting–especially if their standard of living is reasonable and they have free time–is probably a manifestation of that exact thing: “if someone else makes a different decision than me it invalidates all the pain and trauma I’m incurring in pursuit of goalposts that just keep shifting endlessly into the distance”.

        Also…”sell-out” implies that the person who sold out had something the market wanted.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          The bewildered speech about grad school delivered by my husband’s thesis advisor, when another grad student in the lab had noted that they actually had more disposable income in undergrad:

          That’s why I loved grad school. You don’t have any money or annoying family distractions, so you can just focus all your time in the lab.

      2. ConflictedScientist*

        I think you and Rainy really are right. I remember trying to have to get into that mentality in grad school, that you had to justify your suffering as worth it. It probably helps to see it more from that perspective, that it’s more about them and their mindset than it is about me and my choices. And I have seen more and more academics starting offshoot companies and filing patents too.

    5. Rainy*

      I work with PhD students making the decision you made, and often they are grappling with that earlier and earlier in the process (which is really good and healthy for them imo), and one of the things we talk about is that you are a whole person and not just the job you do, and the fact that money and free time are essential for you to be that whole person. I often urge them to think about the ways they apply those same passions and goals in their personal lives, and about how much more time and energy they have to make a positive mark in the world when they have work/life balance and are being paid a living wage.

    6. SelloutScientist*

      Ugh, I know this well (I went further to the dark side by moving from a scientific role to marketing!)

      There are two things that have helped me feel better about it (in the context of talking to academics….I feel just fine on a day to day basis, thx!). One is that I do a small amount of self-deprication in order to help shape the narrative and point out that academia has issues too. “Yep, I’m a sellout, but the research pace of industry suits me better.” or “Sure, I’m a corporate drone but give me the bureaucracy of a company trying to get results over the bureaucracy of an institution that cares about traditional above all any day of the week” or “Of course I have to work on something the company finds valuable….by the way, hows it going with that NIH grant?”

      The other thing I do is talk up industry with any grad students or postdocs that I chat with. I tell them about cool stuff going on in industry, how strongly I believe that scientists should be getting paid what they’re worth, how cool it is that chem/biotech startups are in pretty much every major research city, how we need good scientists in industry whether or not they think it’s the most exciting work. Hopefully this helps people who want to leave academia feel a little better about it, and helps those staying in academia see a little more of the value.

    7. Madame X*

      Hello fellow scientist! I too left academia after nearly a decade in academic research. I had main reasons for leaving:
      1. After nearly a decade in academic research, I wanted a career change.
      2. I needed to earn a higher salary to improve my standard of living
      3. The academic job market is getting worse every year.

      Only about 16% of PhD graduates, move on to a tenure track position. Even if you WANTED to stay in academia the odds are not in your favor. It makes me wonder how old are the people you are talking to, because scientist in my range are aware of how dire academic research funding is and how difficult it is to find a tenure-track position. I haven’t received any push back for my career change when I talk to scientists who have stayed in academia.
      For some background, I completed a 2-year postdoc and recently started a position with large biotech firm. In my new role, my tasks mainly involve project management, client management, and study design. I don’t do any bench work, which I don’t miss it all. I had wonderful mentors throughout grad school and for my postdoc, and my research was decent, I was successful in earning some grants, and I got to learn some pretty cool concepts which I later published.However, i was ready to move in a different direction for my career. I knew about halfway through grad school that the academic life of a tenured professor was not for me.

      1. ConflictedScientist*

        The odds were actually a big part of my decision to leave! I looked at the scientists I saw who were successful and saw that they essentially had to live and breath grants and research for a decade or more to get to a place of stability. I love science and enjoyed doing academic research, but an outside life was important to me too and I knew that with those kind of odds, I was never going to be able to out compete those who had no life but research and end up with a tenure track position and continuous funding. I get to do a variety of tasks in my current role too and am really enjoying some of the project management and personnel management that I wouldn’t get to do otherwise.

    8. Logan*

      I have not encountered this problem, although maybe it’s because I’m in a community with a lot of high-tech and other companies. Even then, I have worked and been friends with scientists from many ‘walks of life’, and even the academics recognise that there are way too many PhDs for the few academic options, so private / government employment is inevitable.
      All that to say – is your own view that you are ‘selling out’ affecting how you think others view you?

      1. ConflictedScientist*

        That’s a fair point. I do think that my view is probably coloring how I view the interactions going. While there is definitely something there, I am probably a little pre-sensitized and inclined to take it to mean more than it really does sometimes. And either way, the best I can do is probably to work on my own mindset about it, since there’s nothing I can do about others!

        1. Liz*

          Please don’t listen to those who call you a sellout. As others have noted here, that comment is rooted in their need to justify their own work/money/years put in. My husband was a high academic achiever. He did a BSc in life sciences at a large school with a good med school and graduate school, where many of the life science undegrads were gunning for med/graduate school. He then got a job in the pharma industry on the manufacturing side. Eventually he got an MBA and has played highly valued roles at several companies making life-saving therapies lots of people need. One of the reasons he’s highly valued is because he has a unique skill set of understanding the science, but also the manufacturing realities and financial context. Research alone doesn’t save lives… someone has to get those therapies produced and on the market. One of his projects was a medication for lupus–a terrible disease that hadn’t had an updated therapy since the 50s. That product made a huge difference in the lives of many patients. But what kills me is that to this day, his friends from school who did PhDs make comments that he “wasted his potential” by not going the academic route. Sad that they can’t see beyond their own life choices.

    9. Madame X*

      Hello fellow scientist! I too left academia after nearly a decade in academic research. I had main reasons for leaving:
      1. After nearly a decade in academic research, I wanted a career change.
      2. I needed to earn a higher salary to improve my standard of living
      3. The academic job market is getting worse every year.

      Only about 16% of PhD graduates, move on to a tenure track position. Even if you WANTED to stay in academia the odds are not in your favor. It makes me wonder how old are the people you are talking to, because scientist in my range are aware of how dire academic research funding is and how difficult it is to find a tenure-track position. I haven’t received any push back for my career change when I talk to scientists who have stayed in academia.

      For some background, I completed a 2-year postdoc and recently started a position with large biotech firm. I don’t do any bench work, which I don’t miss it all. I had wonderful mentors throughout grad school and for my postdoc, and my research was decent, I was successful in earning some grants, and I got to learn some pretty cool concepts which I later published.However, i was ready to move in a different direction for my career. I knew about halfway through grad school that the academic life of a tenured professor was not for me.

      1. beaglesnpyjamas*

        I just love research. I literally left the private sector to just do research. Is that a thing for PhDs? The National Labs are a great choice.

        1. beaglesnpyjamas*

          Academia and industry are not the only options. Each National Lab in the US houses thousands of scientists.

    10. ChemMoose*

      YOU DID NOT SELL OUT!!! Industry is amazing (from mpov)! What I love about industry – wonderful health care, supportive team mates there to help rather than knock you down, the amazing resources ($ and people), and meeting people from all types of backgrounds. Oh yeah, and my mental health issues have been taken care of because I’m not in a position from hell anymore. Also, there are far more positions for scientists in industry than there are in academia.

      Finally for the “saving the world” comment – at least I know my research is more likely to hit the market in a few years rather than a few decades being in industry.

    11. tink*

      I don’t understand this mentality that “academic” science is the only real or good science. If it weren’t for corporate scientists like yourself, I feel like a lot of the lofty academic stuff would never get distilled down far enough to reach consumers. Obviously I don’t know what branch of science you work in, but to me the people doing what I think of as “every day” science (things we may not think about as science on a consumer level, but that still needs all of that method and testing) is important on par with the big stuff that’s going to save lives and change the world.

    12. Anna Canuck*

      They don’t have to be dicks about it, but they HAVE to believe that they’re better because otherwise, why would they live like that? It’s a case of self-preservation. They’ve chosen to make their lives complicated and difficult, so if they don’t believe it’s for a really good reason, then they will have to admit that it’s not worth it.

      Academia is a harsh world that dictates your WHOLE life. My sister married a guy with a PhD in plant genetics that worked in industry for a bit and then got on the academic track. They’ve relocated countries 3 times. That is just how it had to be, and that is no small thing when it comes to relationships, your kid’s lives, etc. Her career has had to be whatever she can patch together where they’ve landed for his work.

    13. epi*

      I’m a PhD student in cancer epidemiology but keeping private industry jobs on my radar. There are many people who work in my field but for pharma companies, or in consulting. Honestly my only reaction is I don’t think they are recognized enough for their work because it is so often proprietary! Sometimes I am jealous of the stability and structure of their work compared to mine (I work on two totally separate projects, one of which is related to my dissertation but oh wait this year it’s actually on a pilot grant related to the big project and actually this semester we are working on a data request for someone else…)

      People who treat you like this, frankly, suck. This is a terrible political and funding environment for many types of academic science and there just aren’t enough positions for everyone who would probably be brilliant at it. And of course, the more competitive it gets, the more the job is really about getting funding and depending on grad students like me to do the fun parts. :)

      I think anyone who thinks they aren’t going to win this dumb race for a very specific type of scientist job, or who suspects they won’t like academia or even just could be happy doing similar work elsewhere, should get the hell out. People’s life outcomes just seem to be so much better when they plan for that possibility and do it on their own terms. I picked my field (the epi part, I got into cancer later) specifically so I would have that option if needed. People in academia who look down on you are like lottery winners telling you you could be like them if you’d just work harder.

    14. Tuxedo Cat*

      I’m not in your situation but I work adjacent to it, study scientists, and am kind of in academia.

      A lot of academics have a snobbery about jobs not based at a university or college- I know people who look down at those at national labs (WTF, right?). Some of them are also ignorant. Most of the academics are not going to be saving the world- they may make a small dent in a small problem.

      The reality is there are not enough jobs based at universities and colleges in the US for every scientist to be a research scientist or a professor (let alone a tenured/tenure track one). People in academia are slowly coming to that realization. If it helps, think of yourself as a trailblazer. I’m not going to pretend this makes it easier, but with more people presenting non-academic paths, I think the next generation might feel more confident and supported in picking a non-academic path. If anything, maybe they’ll know that they exist.

      I went through a bit of this myself, in my own field recently and I have to remind myself that my colleague’s path is no more valid than mine and her story isn’t mine.

      1. beaglesnpyjamas*

        Who looks down at people at National Labs? For a purely research scientist, this is the best!

    15. MicrobioChic*

      Hello fellow scientist!

      I am currently in grad school, and I am definitely going into industry. The more I see of academia, the less I want it for my life.

      Part of it is that I took a few years to work at a lab tech before going back, so I already have a life in the area I’m in. I have a house, pets and a long term relationship and the thought of uprooting for multiple postdocs and subsuming my life into the struggle for a faculty position is abhorrent to me.

      You might not be curing cancer or saving the world singlehandedly, but I’m sure your company is doing something beneficial or fullfilling a need. Think about that as well as the benefits you get from working in industry.

    16. Persimmons*

      I’ve often joked with a friend in the arts that musicians and novelists are only appreciated until they’re successful. Sad to see that disdain for “selling out” (aka making a reasonable living) is also a thing in your field.

    17. Jesca*

      I am not a scientist, but I do have something to say about the term “sell out”. The term “sell out” is generally used by pretty immature and pretentious people. Think about it. It is usually used in the context of bands: “Oh I don’t listen to albumns from Black on by Metallica because thats when they sold out”. Sold out what? What actually has happened is that bands reach a certain level of maturity with their music. It sounds very clear, the lyrics are well written, and it all came together cohesively without a lot of drama. The band had matured; they did not “sell out”. They found they could clean up their sound, make it more professional, and make a lot of money using their talents. They are still delivering the same product (metal music) but are just more successful at it.

      So just look at it within the context that you have moved passed a past idealistic mentality where working for peanuts in really dysfunctional environments was worth it to “save the world”. In reality, many more corporate companies solve major problems than not. If they don’t, then they are ALWAYS the one to buy the new science or technology and bring it to the masses (saving the world, so to speak). You gained new information, you honed your internal thought processes, and decided that making money and saving the world do not have to be two different choices. Metallica sold more Black Album than most of artists sold anything. The reason it was so popular wasn’t because it was mainstream (not many thrash/progressive/garage metal bands running around – even then!!!!), but because the songs were actually really professional and the band decided it was OK to use their skills to make a crap ton more money.

      *All this is said from a recovering pretentious metal head.

    18. mayfly*

      I’m also a corporate scientist, but I work in environmental consulting, and many of our clients are industry or legal counsel. So yeah, I’m seen as having “sold out” as well and I’m sorry you’re being mistreated.
      A couple of reasons I like my job. It’s frankly more rigorous and interesting than academia. I’ve worked on a broad range of projects all over the world,and with a number of of very bright colleagues. Given the nature of the work, everything I do is carefully checked and vetted both internally and externally. In my experience, there is zero systematic QA in academic science, and as a result quite a bit of shoddy or erroneous work is being produced. I’ve personally reviewed work done by number of academic scientists and overall it’s terrible. There was one project where an entire group of statisticians spent weeks trying to recreate an academic’s analyses, and could not do it.
      Also, the bar for meaningful work isn’t saving the world or saving someone’s life. Do you make lives easier? Save someone money? Streamline getting needed products to market? Those are all incredibly important things. I don’t save lives, but if I do my job to the best of my ability, it usually results in a reasonable settlement and faster environmental remediation. I’m not sure what types of products you develop/sell, but I’m sure consumers value them for how they benefit their quality of life.

      1. Alice*

        There are researchers who do good (or reproducible) science and ones who don’t. That applies across all funding mechanisms and research questions.

        1. Alice*

          And when I said “good (or reproducible)” I meant that reproducibility is a synonym for good, not an alternative!

        2. Observer*

          True. But in academia, there is less of a built in mechanism to find the problems at an early stage.

          1. Alice*

            I have to push back against the idea that industry scientists produce work that is more reproducible. Just like researchers in academia, industry scientists indulge in p hacking, unreported changes in the protocol, not registering trials and analysis plans unless they are made to, not reporting results to registries, not publishing articles, not sharing data, not sharing code, etc etc. If science in industry had a robust mechanism to find problems at an early stage how could Theranos get so far?
            We’re all subject to laziness and bias. Individual firms and individual labs may have built in mechanisms to identify problems, but I don’t think it’s possible to generalize accurately.

            1. mayfly*

              Theranos is a straight up scam, which is different than sloppiness in research.
              When my analyses are used in decision-making, they’re all turned over to government scientists or their representatives for review. And it’s a very thorough and critical review too. The level of scrutiny my work gets in the private sector is so far beyond anything I experienced in academia. There, no one checked data entry, data interpretation, statistical analyses, methodology, assumptions, etc. Industry, while no where near perfect, just has more of a QA culture than academia.

              1. Anon. Scientist*

                I fully agree, Mayfly. As someone who was I academia and in consulting, the amount of QA and oversight was completely different. In some of my more contentious industry projects, we can have 3 different agencies, multiple activist groups, and 10 consultant firms going over data (with various agendas). And you have oversight of the actual data collection. academia didn’t come close.

                1. Alice*

                  I accept that there is more weight on compliance/oversight/QA in industry, and that there are slapdash and slipshod academic researchers out there – sometimes because they were not trained to value reproducibility and sometimes because they expect new postdocs to handle data management without having been taught the necessary skills. But I don’t think we can call science reproducible if it’s not open. I’m glad that Anon Scientist’s firm shares its data, but access by outside researchers (not only regulators), preregistration of trials, outcome reporting, are all improving only slowly.

              2. TL -*

                I don’t know about all fields, but in my field (cancer), people know whose work is good, whose work is reproducible (because we reproduce it and talk to others who are also reproducing it), and whose work isn’t. It’s not publicized but people talk and it’s a small community. And they won’t necessarily or explicity warn someone outside of the community they don’t know.

                It is, however, pretty easy for someone to go on producing sloppy or so-so data and not have any repercussions (after tenure) besides a lack of collaborators and smaller grants.

            2. Observer*

              Theranos was a straight up scam, with a HUGE amount of effort and resources put into sidestepping any and all check on their work. I don’t think you can judge industry by it – Nor would I judge academia by one such episode.

              I’m not claiming that scientific work in private industry is perfect. Far from it! Nor that all academic work is poor or sloppy. But, the reality is that the mechanisms in place are different and more suited to ensuring solid work.

      2. Observer*

        In my experience, there is zero systematic QA in academic science, and as a result quite a bit of shoddy or erroneous work is being produced.

        The term “replication crisis” comes to mind. So does retractionwatch dot com. While it’s quite possible that the term “crisis” is overdone, it does speak to a very real problem. And it’s worth noting that some of the incorrect stuff coming out of academia is not only not useful, but actively harmful.

    19. J.B.*

      My dad is a professor and I always wanted to stop with a MS because from what I saw academia bl*ws and because in my field the industry PhD slots are few and far between. Wanting to feed yourself and come home at the end of the day is a fine thing. Go for it.

    20. Dr. Doll*

      This attitude in academia is possibly the most toxic thing about it. That ONLY the “Life of the Mind” is worth living. It’s a relic of the bad old days when only rich white men had access to education.

      Talk excitedly about the number of assistants you have and how you never have to do committee work or teach dull undergraduates (<–sarcasm) or deal with the grant paperwork.

      And, ask them directly to explain why they think you sold out. Kind of like asking someone to explain a sexist "joke," they will have to choke it down and realize that they have a stupid prejudice.

      (I didn't go into corporate, but I went to the teaching/admin route in academia, and man, my PhD advisor almost cried when she found out. Her problem, not mine.)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This was my thought, too. Just say, “Sold out? Why do you think I sold out?” Then stop talking, let the awkwardness flow as the person tries to explain their comment. Granted, this is not for the faint of heart, but as you stand there silently you will probably find yourself in a very different situation.
        Maybe the person starts on a rant. “Oh look at the time, gotta run! See you later!”
        Maybe the person settles down and shows a thinking person’s response.
        Or maybe the person just falls quiet. Then you’d wind down the conversation and leave.
        Which ever way this plays out means you either leave or you find yourself in a thoughtful conversation.

        There used to be that group who believed profiteering from someone ill health was not ethical. Maybe this person is a holdover from that era. You may just find that it’s some sort of idealism that has no real world application. I heard of a group that was starting a new kind of bank. They were not going to charge people interest on loans. The first thing I thought was, “how are you going to keep the heat and lights on?” I did not say that out loud. Idealism with no real world application, perhaps. Maybe they will figure out something that is not obvious to me. I have no clue. If you get caught in a conversation that is well beyond your scope like I did with the bank conversation then tell them they have good ideas and wish them well. Then close the conversation.

    21. Tired*

      Another corporate scientist here. I’m currently working at one of those places not curing cancer–but that doesn’t mean I can’t love my work. I love the actual work of my job just the same as any other scientist. I think job satisfaction as a scientist is not much different from job satisfaction in any other field–some has to do with how fulfilling the work is, but a lot has to do with salary, and a good boss, and sane coworkers, and benefits, and work/life balance, and commute time, and all of those other things. To me, those other things far outweigh any “prestige points” I’d get from working as an academic. I don’t give a darn about prestige–I just want to enjoy the day-to-day in my job (I do) and have a good life (I do).

      And just because you aren’t curing cancer doesn’t mean you aren’t making a difference in the world. I’m really straining to think of a corporate science job that doesn’t end up making a difference in someone’s life, even if just a small one. Can’t come up with any examples.

      1. mayfly*

        It’s kind of sad that the work/life balance is better in corporate America than it is in academia, but you’re right that it’s so much better here. I’m a female scientist with three small kids. I don’t think that’s possible in academia.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Yeah, spouse entered grad school expecting to become a professor, and exited excited this his new industry job believed that if you had a problem at 5 on Friday, it would be where you left it at 9 on Monday.

          He works longer hours now, but they’re flexible and he is well compensated and likes the people he works with and our kids are no longer tiny. His description is that he likes working on problems, but he doesn’t care who’s coming up with the problems–it doesn’t have to be him.

        2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Work/life balance was one of the reasons why I realized I wasn’t a good fit for academia. My PhD supervisor was effectively a single parent (her husband worked in another city and was only home on weekends) and very ambitious. Any time I emailed her — no matter the time of night or day — she always responded right away. She basically never slept and was constantly working. I’m just not that energetic.

    22. AJ*

      Hello fellow scientists. I’m a M.S. scientist in a tiny diagnostics company. Many of us could have stayed in academia but found the same headwinds as everyone else. Also, I think our development group has a high level of job satisfaction even if our products never make it to market (most don’t). We don’t get paid quite as much as our drug development colleagues but we have great benefits, a great group of colleagues and great work-life balance. Nothing to be guilty about selling out about!

    23. Quill*

      I’m a lab tech – truth be told, I double majored in a new field for my univesity (environmental science) and archaeology (because envi sci courses pretty much only ran in the fall, so I did classics in the springs… this was a bad idea,) and due to more circumstances than I care to talk about, I burnt out during undergrad thesis and came out of school with no internships, little work experience, and no help in entering the job market.

      Now I’m 26 and I am constantly being asked when I’m going back for a masters or PhD (not helped by the fact that my 3 years younger brother just got accepted at Berkely,) but honestly the idea of doing class or assignments again gives me nearly literal hives.

      I’m currently in medical devices, so at least what I’m doing is a small part of helping people stay healthier, but the whole idea I had going into college that everyone my age was going to be an instrumental part of saving the world? These days I’m old enough to realize that the people we know from history as high achievers didn’t rely on a lab tech’s paycheck, and didn’t have to wash their own laundry. It’s no accident that most of the world changing academics were well off men. If you have very little of the work of living to do you can spend 12 hours a day doing academics.

      There’s also plenty you can do that isn’t directly in your field – I’m still part of a local stream clean up club, and am waging a very slow war on my parents’ HOA’s lawn care standards. Will it ultimately save the world from global warming? Nope, because no matter how much scientists research and develop technology, the problem at this point is in government and public implementation, which I can’t do anything about in the sciences because I’m not Lex Luthor and I can’t beam long term planning into politicians. But it makes things better locally, and I’m taking my politics VERY seriously these days.

    24. ConflictedScientist*

      Wow, I want to thank everyone for their insightful replies. I’m going to bookmark this page and reread these responses any time that I start to feel less of myself because I didn’t stay with the academic route. Several of you hit it on the head with the point about how the environment in academia can be pretty toxic; that was actually a big part of why I left. And I thought that I had gotten over most of the acute trauma from some awful labs and PIs, but apparently the mentality that their way is the best (or only) way is further embedded in my mind than I realized. But reading these responses has given me several new perspectives on ways to look at it. You all are seriously awesome!

      1. RainyDay*

        I’ve worked with academics – but not as an academic myself – for 10+ years. Some of them are fabulous people, but my god, some of them are cranky old codgers. Bring your eyes up from your navel and come back to reality.

    25. Cedrus Libani*

      I’m sitting at my desk at Giant Science Corporation, waiting for the caffeine to kick in. I’m about 1.5 years out of my PhD. And there is zero doubt in my mind that I made the correct decision.

      I’ll admit, I miss having a “prestigious” answer for people who ask what I work on. In my academic life, I worked on cancer, AIDS, and world hunger. Those are all great things to mention at a dinner party. Now, I work on a legacy technology that few people outside the field have even heard of. I’m making it better, faster, and cheaper, which everyone likes, but it ain’t exactly Nobel Prize material.

      However, in practice, I’m doing exactly the same work that I did in academia. Heck, I’m doing better work. Industry can afford to hire people to take care of the basic daily-grind stuff, such that I don’t have to. And I can do the right experiment, instead of the experiment I can do with what’s available to me. I’m also legitimately better at industry-type work. I’m a tactics person, not a strategy person. I’m good at matching problems to solutions, and at fixing the weird corner cases that show up when you’re reducing things to practice. Industry values that skill set, academia doesn’t.

      I make good money, and can live where I want to, which is a distinct plus. But I’m also using my training to solve challenging problems, and I make stuff that people want to buy. I’m proud of the work I do, and I’m willing to be aggressively cheerful about it.

      And personally, I think the freedom of academia is highly overrated. In industry, you have to convince the people who control the funding that your project can make money. In academia, you have to convince them that your project is transformative…and if I never hear that word again, it will be too soon. Profit is a simple, and ultimately non-BS-able, metric; “transformative” is a woolly sack of emotion and groupthink. I’m a simple-minded quantitative type, so you can guess which one I prefer.

    26. only acting normal*

      Astrophysics Masters here. Now an analyst (specifically Operational Research if anyone is familiar with the field). I work with a mix of industry, government, and academia. They all have their pluses and minuses, but none is inherently morally or intellectually superior to any of the others.
      I’ve been to conferences where academics (rather bravely) presented their epic fails at attempting to do what is bread and butter for non-academics: I winced at their bewildered naivety.
      You are not a sell out, those people are being dickish (either because they need a dose of reality, or because they’ve had one and are trying to build themselves back up!)

    27. Overeducated*

      I’m not corporate, but I’m a non-academic scientist, and I get that too, a little bit. Less “you’re a sell-out” than “how can you conform to having other people tell you what to do?” among my crowd, but I know what you mean.

      The thing is, everybody’s a “sell out” because we live under capitalism and all of us who have to work for a living have to get paid. Everybody has to sell their work to somebody, whether it’s the NSF, NIH, Congress, private foundations, donors, or consumers. And some kinds of work that are incredibly rewarding and valuable to society just aren’t funding priorities for people with money. Sure, some kinds of work make contributions others don’t, some are pretty value neutral, and I’d argue that some are actively bad for people and the environment and our overall health as a society. But I think it’s quite disingenuous to act like people in some sectors are pure while others are money-grubbing, because our society is structured so that we all have to be money-grubbing if we don’t have trust funds or rich spouses, and contributing to society is not a black and white thing.

    28. ket*

      Haven’t figure it out. Am annoyed at my academic friends who talk about friends who have “left academia” the way they talk about someone who died; am annoyed at a guy who was almost my thesis advisor because he lists one of his former students as “left mathematics” when the former student now spends his time in a purely-research position working on government grants in mathematics. All my friends who are in industry say it’s so great, amazing, love it. I haven’t made the jump and so am making half the salary I’d make otherwise. My kid’s getting old enough for preschool so maybe I’ll cash in the flexibility and take the money and the opportunity to make a difference with my research!

      By “making a difference” I don’t necessarily mean saving the world/ending cancer, but I do mean getting toilet paper from here to there, making sure you can find a pair of jeans that fit via online shopping, etc.

    29. Mike C.*

      Just remind them of the massive and continuing cuts to public research programs. Since you’re a scientist, you can actually shove this data in their face, point out that they should have already been aware of it and then proceed to ask them how else you’re supposed to pay the bills.

    30. Lora*

      Your academic colleagues can kiss my fat butt.

      I have worked on (note, worked on because we are a team and each have our own specialties and this field is waaaaayyyy too complex for any one person to do by themselves) five drugs that went commercial. Okay, one was pulled because the company decided to go small molecule instead of biologic, but it was AT commercial dammit, they broke ground on the new building!

      Not one of those could ever have gotten out of a mouse in academia. Not one. The NIH can’t afford to fund that level of applied science. Some of them don’t have a huge patient population – orphan drugs, so there’s not a lot of money for them, but they were leveraged to make a platform process for other drugs that made a lot of money.

      If you want to fix mice, academia is GREAT at curing mice. If you want to cure a human, and get all awkward when they come for a special luncheon for orphan disease patients in the clinical trial you supported and they’re trying to thank you for saving their child’s life with tears in their eyes and you can’t decide whether to cry or die of embarrassment, you gotta work in industry.

      Granted, I work in Big Pharma, which has many evil aspects too.

      Part of it is sheer naivete. They literally do not know how hard it is to take a bright idea that worked okay in five mice, and see if it’s real or not. About 80% of academic science isn’t reproducible. It’s not real. It’s enough to get the Least Publishable Unit out the door, that’s all, and if nobody can read the postdoc’s notebook, the reagents are all expired/contaminated….oh well. Part of OldJob was testing out crap that came through the acquisitions group to see if it was worth setting up collaborations or working with these people. Spoiler: it’s not. Most of it’s really crap. My stuff, on the other hand, is checked and investigated and reproduced and scaled-up every damn day. If I produce crap, I get fired for sucking and struggle to find work elsewhere. Look at dudes like Lee Rubin, Tereza Imanishi-Kari, Brian Wansink, Anil Potti, Luk Van Parijs, Woo-suk Hwang, etc etc. You can’t tell me that academic science is pure anything, when these people are still gainfully employed in the field. Like all human endeavors it’s 80% crap.

      Academic science is a tiny fraction of what it takes to discover something new and have that thing be real. I’m talking 5%. Maybe 7% if they did some validation. Anyone who says otherwise is suffering from the Andy Grove Fallacy.

      1. TL -*

        Woah. Pharmacy is completely dependent on basic science research. Academia is supposed to be a place where you can wade through a lot of crap and do a lot of stuff that doesn’t work out and spend decades exploring a protein or a gene or a pathway. It’s not a place where a lot of practical applications are developed, but it is the place where the basis for most translational and clinic research is discovered.

        And for what it’s worth, I worked in (an exceptionally good) lab where we did meaningful translational research as well as basic science research. We didn’t have the desire or the resources to do drug trials but we did share what we found and let others (including pharma) do what they will with it. When my boss wanted to go into clinical trials, he left for pharma – not because he could do his job better in pharma, but because he wanted to do a different job entirely and that he couldn’t do in academia.

        Academia has its problems, as does pharma, but they have two very different roles to fill in the scientific world.

    31. Phoenix Programmer*

      The thing is – you can probably have a bigger impact on saving the world now!

      Keep abreast of the latest theoretical accomplishments and be an agent for change in your organization. Make the products you develope cheaper, greener, less toxic etc. And you’ll be saving the world much more then when you were belting out pubs for other non-applied researcher to cite. At least that is how I feel about my move from science to working in a hospital.

    32. sometimeswhy*

      I’ve done bench science in corporate, startup/corporate, startup/research, government/regulatory, and academic environments and truth be told, the only one you couldn’t pay me enough to go back to is academia. I’m happier doing applied science. I’m not tempered for research; it just frustrates me no end.

      Also, I SUCK at grant writing.

      Also, those folks are jerks.

      Do your thing. Live your life. Have some disposable income. Use that or your time or your voice to give back to the world or your community in ways that feed your soul or whatever or to support someone you love who feeds their soul doing those things.

    33. Working Hypothesis*

      Are you developing products that are actually bad for anything — the end user, the environment, etc? Or just not actively beneficial? I suspect it makes a difference to a lot of people.

    34. Bethany*

      I am an environmental scientist working at a large engineering company. I check the products our engineers create to minimise environmental impacts.

      A lot of the people I went to university with look down on me for ‘selling out’ and not working in research, but none of them are actually working in successful research right now. The ones who got their pHDs are stuck in assistant or laboratory positions, and some work at museums/only volunteer for research without being paid for it. Now those same people are approaching me looking for jobs.

      I like to think I am making just as much of a difference as they are, and I am getting paid much more than I would in academia. I miss the uni lifesyle, but I like the corporate life and I know I create good value for my clients and help in my own way. I also like the benefits and the pay much better!

      There’s pros and cons to either side, and in my experience people tend to see more of both sides when they’re not straight out of graduate school.

    35. SavannahMiranda*

      Moral superiority is the last refuge of the underpaid.

      That sounds unkind but I get the impulse, and I’ve lived it myself. When one has very little else to ‘show for’ their hard work, their years of education, and their commitment, having A Moral Purpose assuages a lot of frustration, financial insecurity, and ennui.

      And I get wanting to hew to the ideals one went to school with. The problem is that those ideals don’t write the same paychecks for others that they may write for me. If I managed to get one of the very few, very competitive (very underpaid) positions in academia serving my ideals, that’s great. For me. It should never be my place to judge others for not getting the same role I competed for, or that my friends and colleagues competed for, or opting not to compete but to have retirement savings, financial options, and a bigger pot to work with.

      And if I do judge others for this, that says I’m unable to think through the issues listed above, which ultimately says far more about me than I does about the persons I’m judging.

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. We all want and to a certain extent need the esteem and regard of our peers. But this one is on them, their failure of imagination, and not on you.

    36. Left the Rat Race*

      I briefly flirted with the Hollywood entertainment industry when I was in college. I grew up in Los Angeles and by luck met a few real superstars in the late sixties, early seventies. What I learned from them and their world is that it is show BUSINESS, not show ART (thank you Mario Peebles). So back to medical school and post-grad training in Boston.
      What I learned there was that scientific academia was more cutthroat than Hollywood, and that is saying something. Not my cuppa tea, and I never regretted going into medical practice instead of research.
      Same with my artist friends, who are so cliche with the starving artist persona and not selling out by doing commercial work. They obviously never studied art history, because the majority of the European artists from antiquity on were COMMISSIONED to do those famous works of art.
      All that to say, don’t worry about “selling out”. If you make enough money by “selling out” you’ll be the one funding those research projects your fellow scientists are writing grants for.

  6. Senorita Conchita*

    My coworker that I work with has been rude to me since I started working at my company 10 months ago. She’s pleasant and helpful if I approach her to ask her a question about work, but she’s nasty otherwise. She laughs at me if I make a mistake, talks about me to other coworkers, gives me attitude if I take time off, and frequently gives me the mean girl “up and down” look & sneer.

    I’m not sure what to do. It’s a very small company with close-knit staff who have worked together for 20 years. I’ve only been there a short amount of time. Is this serious enough to start documenting? I’ve been bullied at work before so I might be overly sensitive. I’ve thought about approaching the boss, but he’s non-confrontational and is friends with my coworker outside of work.

    2. fposte*

      I’m not sure what you’d be documenting for, though. Assuming you’re in the US, this isn’t illegal behavior unless there’s a motivation you haven’t stated, and this isn’t the kind of thing HR is likely to get involved in.

      I would work the situation from a different angle. For one, I’d focus on bonding with other co-workers. The closer you are with the rest of them, the less reward for her in performing for them. If she gives you attitude when you take time off, shrug and say “It’s fine with Manager, so if you have concerns he’s the one to talk to.” And maybe when she’s in friendly and helpful mode you can even ask what’s up. “Jane, you’re always really kind and generous like this when I ask for help, which I really appreciate, but then there are moments like yesterday when you straight up laughed at me in front of everybody for the pivot table error. I don’t get the difference there. What’s up with that?”

      1. Jesca*

        I second this for bonding with other coworkers. Don’t let her isolate you with her nasty gossip and meanness. The biggest mistakes I ever made was assuming everyone felt the same way about me that my bully did. And honestly, at the root of all bullying, that is the goal.

        1. Logan*

          I was in a shitty workplace for 5 months. As my end-date approached, everyone around me came out of the woodwork with variations of “How have you survived working with them?!” I wish that they had said something sooner, because I felt isolated all that time, when there were options.

    3. CoffeeLover*

      If you’re interested in developing a better relationship with her, you could ask her out for coffee or lunch. If you don’t feel comfortable just asking for no apparent reason, you could use the guise of learning more about some area of expertise she has or about her career or whatever makes sense. Alternatively, you could just say you’d like to get to know her better after having worked together for a while. Subtle flattery (aka being interested in her) can take you pretty far.

      I don’t think this is something you should go to your boss over since this is really your relationship to manage. It’s up to you to develop a better relationship with her or, since this doesn’t actually affect your work, to ignore her rudeness. For what it’s worth, it doesn’t really sound like bullying to me… just more like general mean-spiritedness, but I’ve also never been bullied so I’m not the best to say.

      1. Rainy*

        This is classic Mean-Girl style middle school bullying, and placating her will only make it worse because the coworker will take it as a signal of submission. It sounds to me like this coworker is attempting to position herself as superior to Señorita Conchita and that’s why she’s nice when Señorita Conchita approaches in the “appropriate” attitude (submissive, inferior, needing knowledge) and mean when she’s doing her thing and being awesome at work.

        I’d focus on building relationships with the coworkers who aren’t jerks (while being EXTREMELY careful not to admit anyone with known connections to Mean Girl to your confidence or inner circle) and continuing to act as though you have a normal if distant relationship with the Mean Girl. If you seem unaware of her tactics, she will escalate to the point that she looks ridiculous and everyone will see it, because if it is Mean-Girl bullying, she won’t be able to help herself.

        1. Left the Rat Race*

          Definitely document her behavior in real time, with date, time, location and situation, and keep it in a password protected Word type document that you copy to a thumb drive and transfer to your home computer. Don’t send it to yourself via office e-mail.
          I had to do this over a long period with a few “mean boys”, and it was very useful to have when a higher up made any kind of comments to me about potential HR problems.

      2. Specialk9*

        Definitely don’t try to placate or kiss up to her. This behavior is bizarre and unprofessional, and you don’t want to encourage it. Be a serene landscape photo and float along without noticing her antics. But do connect with others (without gossiping about the mean girl).

    4. alice*

      My boyfriend has one of these at his office. He came to the conclusion that Rude Coworker acted that way because he enjoyed being in control (hence being rude but also being helpful when being asked a question). His team routinely calls him out on his behaviour (“Wow that’s a rude comment”, “the way you’re staring at me makes me uncomfortable”, etc.) He hasn’t changed a bit, but I think it’s made everyone feel better about not putting up with his BS.

    5. MicroManagered*

      Can you try to act genuinely baffled but calm and name the behavior?

      “Whoa! Why would you laugh at me for making a mistake?”

      “What was that look for?” (when she says “What look?”) “Oh for a second it looked like you were looking me up and down and doing this.” *imitate face*

      If you actually HEAR her talking about you “You know I can hear what you’re saying, right, Bertha?”

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah, calmly naming behavior can be powerful. But only if you can do that ‘disengaged commenting on an unusual behavior at the zoo’ thing, rather than enraged or about to cry. If nothing else it lets co-workers know it’s happening, and that you’ll call them out too if they jump on the bullying bandwagon.

        1. Left the Rat Race*

          In a meeting with one of the mean boys (we were all in our fifties at the time) he said something really inflammatory (and incorrect) about me, and then said, “It’s not personal.” I smiled and calmly said, “of course it is.”
          He was totally taken off guard and started defensively insisting it wasn’t, but by that time everyone was laughing at him.

        2. VicCatLady*

          “Yeah, calmly naming behavior can be powerful. But only if you can do that ‘disengaged commenting on an unusual behavior at the zoo’ thing, rather than enraged or about to cry.”

          And the sooner you do it the better, if you’re like me, because the longer it goes on the harder it will become not to cry — out of sheer rage and sense of unfairness, but nevertheless crying makes us look weak.

    6. WalkedInYourShoes*

      I had a co-worker like that 3 years ago. This person spent more time criticizing and bad-mouthing (99.9%) everyone in the company including myself besides doing her job (.1%).

      I was new like yourself, kept to myself and assessed the office dynamics. I realized that this co-worker had my manager’s support so no matter what anyone said about this co-worker. This person was there 1.5 years longer than I when I started. I documented missed deadlines, reports, and milestones in case I was held responsible for this person’s lack of responsibilities to do “the job”. Anyways, this person finally quit after 9 months after I started. When the person finally left the company, my manager looked over this person’s laptop and found disparaging remarks about everyone including the manager.

      So, here’s what helped me in my situation: 1) I pretended to listen to this person; 2) when this person complained, I would literally excuse myself due to a “call” or “missing a meeting; 3) when the person was in the office that we shared, I made sure that I booked a conference room for my calls; 4) walked alot.

      Another thing that came in my advantage was that this person made up excuses and was out literally every other day due to a “pulled armpit muscle”, “someone crashed into this person’s vehicle at night”, “left laptop at home and it doesn’t work”, “the person’s son needs to get a job and is helping him out”, etc. It became outrageous. So, everyone knew what was happening.

    7. OhBehave*

      It sounds like she’s feeling threatened by you. Entering such a close-knit workplace is hard enough. She’s protecting her turf and doesn’t want this newbie to upstage her.
      As others have suggested, call her out on her treatment of you. Others will be silently applauding you!
      If she sneers at you and looks you up and down, ask her if your fly is open. She’s going to claim she didn’t look at you in any particular way.
      You overhear her talking about you, let her know you can hear her and that if she has concerns about your performance to please talk to you directly. She KNOWS you can hear her. That’s why she’s doing it near you!

      Do not stoop to her level. Be as nice to hear as possible. Be even nicer to your coworkers. Do what you can to develop a relationship with them. At some point they will realize she’s full of it and you are a nice person who works hard. They probably already know this but are just letting her bullying behavior slide, which is not cool. Your boss sounds like an inept person who will be no help to you in this case. I’m sure she’s talking bad about you to him too but he’s heard it about everyone so has tuned her out.

      The fact that she’s still doing this 10 months later, is ridiculous! She’s acting the fool with her insecurity. Do what you can to not let it affect you. If you can feel pity for her every time she does something to you, that may help deflect.

  7. Toxic waste*

    Anytime I take PTO or any time off, work place thinks I’m interviewing. I don’t know why they think this, but how do I handle this? Do I ignore it and hope it goes away? Should I give more info on why I’m taking off?

    1. Audiophile*

      I would just matter-of-factly state that you’re not currently looking/or interviewing for a new position, you’re very happy in your current role with this company. (If this is true.)

      I’ve had this happen too, but when I’ve been happy in my role I’ve had no problem stating as much.

    2. SoSo*

      Sometimes my boss does this. You’re not entitled to telling them anything but some people are either nosy or worried they might lose a good employee. Usually I just laugh and tell her what I’m actually doing. Saying “Nope, just helping a family member move” or, “Going to the dentist actually; I’ve got a few cavities” is a lot less thrilling than the “mystery” of if you’re interviewing or not. Now, on the flip side, I definitely wouldn’t tell them if I was interviewing.

      1. A username for this site*

        Dentist is a wonderful excuse, because usually you have to go for a cleaning/checkup then if you have cavities, it’s normal to go for a few follow up appointments spread out over a few months. So you can drag one dental visit out into 3 additional excuses, at least.

    3. AMD*

      Are they asking you if you are interviewing? Making jokes? Are you hearing t through the grapevine? How to respond depends on how seriously and directly people are expressing this.

    4. Jelly Bean*

      Who specifically thinks you’re interviewing and what are they saying to give this impression?

      1. Bacon Pancakes*

        Agreed. I would be more concerned if it was my boss and less concerned if it was Patricia in Accounting.

    5. neverjaunty*

      Honestly, for me this would be a sign that I should START interviewing. It doesn’t speak well of a company (for so many reasons) if it assumes that nobody would want to take time off for any reason other than to work elsewhere.

      1. Massmatt*

        Was going to say this. The company/boss/whoever is making these comments is being weird and paranoid.

    6. Mediamaven*

      Trust me, every boss thinks this every time someone is out. We’re all sensitive because likely we’ve had it happen many times before. I would just deal with it and if asked, say you aren’t.

      1. designbot*

        thankfully, #notallbosses think this. Because lordy, I’ve got enough to worry about without inventing stories for myself!

    7. Naptime Enthusiast*

      I usually put announce that I’ll be out in an Outlook meeting notice and put a location as “Vacation”, “Work From Home”, or “Abroad”. If it’s anything private, I just put “OOO”. Then again my group isn’t very nosy so I rarely get questions.

    8. PB*

      I’ve been encountering some of this, too. We’ve had a lot of turnover lately, so I’ve gotten a lot of, “You’re not leaving, are you?!” I’ve just been laughing it off and assuring them that no, I’m not leaving/interviewing. No need to give more information, unless you want to. Your personal time is yours, and I’m not sure it would be that effective, anyway.

      1. Sophia Brooks*

        I agree. In is my experience that people who are weirdly obsessed with other people doing a thing are actually doing the thing. Like liars think people are lying, cheaters think people are cheating, etc.

        1. MillersSpring*

          I don’t know where I heard this adage years ago: The husband who looks under the bed has hidden under a bed himself.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Totally agree about projection.

          OP, just turn the question back on them:

          “Nope, I am not interviewing. Is that the only thing people do with their time off here?”

          “No interview going on. But tell me, should we all be interviewing, is something going on that we should be aware of?”

          “It’s not an interview. But you are making me think that maybe it should be, is that what you do with you PTO?”

          Or you can go with my personal fav which is to just let them exhaust themselves with worry about whether I am interviewing or not. This frees me up to, you know, go about life.

    10. LGC*

      You handle it by using your PTO to actually interview.

      But seriously, that sounds kind of neurotic on their part – do they have any reason to think you might leave? This might be a situation where you can deploy some demonstrative ignorance – “no, of course not, why do you think I was off at a job interview?”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Or, “Wow, that’s pretty random. Wait until I tell my dentist that one. He will laugh.”

  8. Bones*

    Advice needed: How do I ask someone who is cold-emailing me whether or not they have an actual job, or are just looking for me to come in, fill out a form, and be put into a database? I don’t want my time wasted, and can’t afford to take off extraneous hours from work. How do I stand up for myself in job searches?

    1. Fabulous*

      Ask to see a copy of the job description. If they can provide one, chances are there is an actual job. If they can’t/won’t provide one, or if they send you the most generic description (try googling the text to see if it’s a template description) chances are there is not a real job.

    2. StartupScrapper*

      Hi Bones,

      I’m assuming you’re being emailed by an agency recruiter. Can you ask them for the job description? They may mask the company name, but a JD will help you understand if it’s a real role or not.

      Speaking as a sometimes recruiter. They’re contacting you. You have most of the power in this situation.

      Good luck!

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      If I’d be even open to taking a new job, I reply back with “do you have a specific opportunity in mind? If so, please tell me more about it.”

      75% of the time this gets me some sort of “Nothing right now, I just like to develop relationships with people so I can recommend them when something comes up” (read: I just want to fill my database), and I don’t respond any further.

      25% of the time, they mention a job title and a VERY vague description of the job and ask to set up a call, which is fine. I know they want to be vague so I don’t just figure out what company it is and apply on my own.

  9. Susan K*

    What’s the deal with women befriending their coworkers’ wives? Is this a common thing everywhere? I have seen it many times at two different companies, and I’m a little baffled. I think it’s mainly on Facebook, not hanging out in person, and I think it’s usually the coworker who initiates it, not the wife (I’m assuming this because I’ve never received a friend request from a coworker’s wife). It’s only women — I’ve never seen a man befriend a coworker’s husband. I guess I’m just curious: why do people do this? What causes a woman to seek out her coworkers’ wives on Facebook and become friends? And if you are the wife, do you find it weird or awkward?

    1. What's with today, today?*

      I can only speak to my own experience, but my husband “Hates social media,” and is “so glad he doesn’t have a facebook,” and yet he loves to sit at night and read through people’s post on mine. He’s an attorney, and a lot of his male and female colleagues have friended me because they know Husband “hates Facebook,” but really creeps it. Also, I assume they like the bazillions of pictures of our kid! (LOL, I’m sure the pics aren’t the reason).

      1. MissMaple*

        Haha, I thought I was the only one. I have facebook and never use it. My husband doesn’t have it and uses it (mine) all the time :)

      2. Tangerina*

        Your username makes me laugh.

        Who knows where thoughts come from. They just appear.

      3. Jaydee*

        This. I know multiple coworkers (both men and women) who are Facebook friends with the wives/girlfriends of coworkers. But it’s because the husband doesn’t have a Facebook profile, so that’s the way to be Facebook friends with him.

        FWIW, I do know male coworkers who are actual friends with husbands/boyfriends of female coworkers. But they’re lawyers too, so maybe that explains it?

        I’m only facebook friends with spouses/partners of coworkers if I’m at least somewhat friendly with them in person (so basically the spouses/partners of the coworkers I’m friends with outside the office too).

    2. Happy Friday!*

      I have become very close friends with the wife of one colleague, but we’re in-person friends, not just social media friends. Our paths crossed at a few work events where spouses were invited and we got to know each other that way. This colleague has also become friends with my husband and the four of us often go out for dinner on the weekends. This is different than just being Facebook friends, but wanted to offer the example.

    3. Murphy*

      I’ve been friendly/facebook friends with some of my husband’s female co-workers, but it’s because we hung out together as couples. (We have hung out with male co-workers of his as well.)

    4. ExcelJedi*

      This is weird. Unless the coworkers go to dinner/non-work socializing with their spouses, I guess? But I haven’t met someone IRL except at an office holiday party, I would not accept those friend requests.

    5. The Other Chelsea*

      I have male coworkers who have befriended coworkers’ husbands/boyfriends. It’s not what I would do because I like keeping work/life more separated, but I think these coworkers tend to be very social and just want to build connections.

    6. Small but Fierce*

      I can’t speak for everyone, but as the wife in this situation, I’m often invited to work happy hours and weekend gatherings. I have a positive relationship with a lot of my husband’s coworkers, whom he considers friends. I don’t mind at all when those coworkers connect with me on social media. If it were a coworker I hadn’t met and a platform such as Facebook, that’d give me pause, but otherwise it’s fine with me.

    7. Seriously?*

      I have actually been friended by coworkers wives. I think that it is just people who friend anyone they meet.

    8. A. Ham*

      The only thing I find odd about this is the “only on social media” thing. I am friends (not “hang out every weekend” friends, but “occasional happy hour or party” friends) with many of my co-workers significant others, and my husband is friends with them too. It could be just part of the job, as we have quite a few work event during the year where SOs often attend as well, so it’s easy to build up friendships. Actually- it’s funny, I work with three women about my same age, and they are very nice and I get along with them just fine, but when our husbands met each other a few years ago at our annual gala, it was like bro-mance at first sight. I think my husband was sadder than I was when one of the women left for a different job, because it meant he wouldn’t see her husband as much anymore.

      1. Susan K*

        I’m not 100% sure they never hang out socially, but I think it is pretty rare, and if it does happen, it’s generally part of a group (e.g., company holiday party). I do know of at least a few of these friendships where the two women have never met in person.

        1. What's with today, today?*

          I went to a wedding recently where my husband was a groomsman and I knew no one. There was another wife in the exact same situation, and we bonded immediately. We were weekend wedding BFFs while our husbands were occupied. We live across the country from each other and I will never see her again, but we still friended each other on Facebook. I think it’s just a super easy thing people do with folks they meet.

        2. Sadie*

          I am FB friends with several of my coworkers wives ( like at least 6 of them) who I have never met in person.

          The wives all sent *me* the friend request (in all cases I was already fb friends with my coworkers, their husbands). I have really no idea why they wanted to be fb friends, but I have no problem with it and feel like it would seem weird if I declined the request. I’m married with kids and am FB friends with my boss lol, so there’s ithing on there I wouldn’t want seen.

          All this to say I wouldn’t assume the “friendships” were initiated by the coworker rather than the wives.

    9. Environmental Compliance*

      I get randomly friended by my husband’s coworker’s wives. In fact, one male coworker of his specifically will only make plans through his wife, who then talks to me. We were not otherwise friends, and really had barely met. It is incredibly odd to me. He sees Hubs at work daily….be a grown up and make plans then! Or text!

    10. Reba*

      This has happened to me (as the spouse) and I’m happy about it because I am actively trying to make friends with these people. We are all pretty new to the area so maybe that’s part of it. It probably also just reflects different ways or norms of using the site.

    11. TheWonderGinger*

      I had an interview with the branch manager of a company, a week later (during the holiday weekend) I got a friend request from him on Facebook.

      Yeah, that one is sitting in limbo.

    12. Chaordic One*

      I find that often times a husband will go home and talk about a female coworker with his wife. It is usually just benign comments having to do with small talk that the coworker has made, or sometimes the coworker venting. The wife then thinks she has to fix whatever minor problem the coworker has, or at least offer her sympathy and advice, although this is generally unneeded and unwanted. Also, sometimes you’ll find an insecure wife who feels that her relationship with her husband is a bit threatened by the woman who spends so much time with her husband. Making a friend of the coworker makes her a bit less threatening.

    13. Alli525*

      For a somewhat uncharitable take: based on the letters we’ve seen from people who refuse to travel, eat, or otherwise be alone with the opposite sex, I’m sure there are SOME women out there who friend their husband’s female coworkers as a pre-emptive, paranoid defense against cheating. “If they know me and our kids, they’re less likely to seduce my husband!”

      Now granted, most people do not behave this way. But I have heard that exact sentence from the fundamentalists I grew up around (not w/r/t social media, since that didn’t exist when I was growing up, but in general).

      1. Susan K*

        I have to admit that has crossed my mind, but the odd thing is that I’m pretty sure the friendships are being initiated by the coworker, not the wife. Maybe the coworkers do it as a defense against being accused of cheating — “If I make friends with the wife, nobody will think there’s anything going on between me and her husband.”

        1. Luna*

          I think part of it is related to weird retro ideas about people of the opposite sex not being able to be friends. The coworkers feel like they can’t really be friends with the male coworker (or at least not friends only with him if he has a significant other) so instead they make friends with the wife/girlfriend too.

        2. Traffic_Spiral*

          I think that might be it. Sort of a “look, I’m not angling to be your hubby’s sidepiece, we’re just work-friends.” Or even “Bob, I’m friends with your wife now so back off with the creeping.”

      2. Specialk9*

        I buy this take, having also grown up in that world. I have one non-religious friend who also has that as an explicit rule in her marriage, that they both agreed to – no real friends of the opposite gender.

        I also think it might have to do with gendered household labor expectations. Women often are de facto handlers of social relationships and scheduling.

        So basically, 2 reasons for major side eye.

      3. Kelsi*

        For an even less charitable take, it might be “I’ll friend them on FB so I can keep an eye on their activities/FB interactions with my husband” rather than “if we’re friends they’ll be less likely to seduce my husband.”

    14. Becky*

      I’ve never actually seen this happen? Maybe because I just am not on Facebook. I know exactly 2 of my coworkers spouses. My coworker Julie’s husband works in another department on the other side of the building so I see and talk to him a few times a week (he stops by Julie’s desk when they go for lunch and when they leave at the end of the day). And coworker David’s wife I know through David and our unofficial game nights at work (once a month we do a potluck game night, anyone is invited. David will sometimes bring his wife).

      The rest of my coworkers–I generally know who is married? Spouses will occasionally show up to go to lunch or to show off a new baby with spouse.

      Also know a former coworker’s spouse but that’s because I was coworker’s friend and bridesmaid years before either of us worked at the company.

    15. Nervous Accountant*

      Uh oh. I did that bc I’m friends w my coworker and I met his wife a few times before friending her on a FB. A lot of us at work are on each other’s social media so that’s why I Didn’t think it’d be so weird.

      1. Susan K*

        Well, just because I think it’s weird doesn’t mean everyone does. :) Apparently, a lot of people think it’s perfectly normal!

    16. Salad*

      Some of my best friends were my previous coworker’s wives…but I worked for the military and was usually the only woman among a bunch of men. I was friends with the guys/coworkers too, but we hung out outside of work and I became close friends with the wives.

    17. Tangerina*

      I can understand it a bit in cultures where you would facebook friend coworkers (which I just can’t bring myself to do). Since we spend so much time at work, it’s naturally the easiest place to meet new people to become social with. Women are seen as the kin-keepers, so if there’s going to be a two-couples-hanging-out thing, the women may feel pressured to organize it.

      I wouldn’t mind hanging with some of my dude coworkers, but I would not feel comfortable hanging with the married ones without their wife around. I could see befriending the wife to show her that I acknowledge their marriage and have no bad intentions, I just want to hang with solid people.

    18. Specialk9*

      I think this is incredibly weird behavior. I have a policy of not adding current co-workers to Facebook, but it generally doesn’t even come up. If the co-worker want to link up with me professionally, that’s what LinkedIn is about.

      If a coworker’s SPOUSE friended me out of the blue, I’d assume that either that co-worker had cheated, or that spouse was cheating. Because it’s too weird otherwise. (And I’d be pissed that I was getting pulled into marital nonsense.)

      The one exception is if you actually do hang out regularly. Then that’s someone who actually knows you who’s connecting with you, which isn’t weird at all.

    19. ket*

      My husband has befriended several of my coworkers/colleagues. I work in a very male-dominated field. He does not use social media — he uses beer.

      I am not comfortable, overall, making friends with my coworkers’/colleagues’ wives. Because of my field, it is sometimes cool, and sometimes it isolates me in the “ladies’ corner” talking about decorating instead of the conversations about grants, research, department politics that are happening on the “guy’s side.” I need to know those things!

    20. Extra Vitamins*

      I’m a woman in a male-dominated field. I have made friends with some coworkers wives because (1) those are the women I meet, and (2) there’s a wierd dynamic where doing that reassures everyone that I’m not hitting on my male coworkers ( yes this is stupid).

    21. Engineer Girl*

      Guilty guilty guilty.

      A lot my my work was time intensive, involved overtime and travel. A supportive spouse was a sort of ad-hoc member of the “team” simply because they were supportive. We would also occasionally meet for team celebrations, holiday parties, etc.

      The reality was that a non supportive family meant trouble for the team. The person would have to leave early, couldn’t trade shifts for launches and deployments, had problems on extended travel (over a month) etc.

      Good relationships are valued.

    22. Delta Delta*

      I worked with a gentleman who was married to a really lovely woman. We met at a company function and I liked her and she liked me and now we’re friends. It never struck me as odd.

    23. Hrovitnir*

      Well, I friended my partner’s co-worker’s wife – actually his employee so I was unsure about doing it, but basically after the last xmas do I was like “damn, you’re so cool”, plus we overlap a bit so I thought fuck it. She’s an awesome Maori woman working and doing her Masters at the same university I was at, whilst being the primary caregiver for their 5 kids, and focusing on better representation of Maori women in academia. We’ve also seen each other once a year for over 10 years so there’s that.

      We haven’t interacted much, because Facebook is kind of horribly designed for genuine interaction these days IMO, and it’s probably not totally professional for her to see second-hand personal stuff from her partner’s boss, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (My partner’s fine with it.)

    24. Hannah Banana*

      I’m “the wife” that has connected with several of my husband’s coworkers, all of which I’ve met in person several times. I don’t find it weird overall because my husband and I have the same job title in different, but overlapping, fields. Making connections with his coworkers helps me professionally and there are a lot of them that I really like on a personal level. My husband’s big boss’s wife and I are actually really great friends after we discovered many common interests.

      On the flip side it is a little weird being friends with big boss’s lady because I’m worried about personal and professional lives being separate and I wouldn’t want to jeopardize my husband’s career.

    25. Lonely chick.*

      As a young single woman in male dominated industry in a conservative rural area, all of my closest friends are from work and all of them are men. If we hang out outside of work it is “safer” to invite couples I guess, especially at the start. No one gets the wrong idea or intention, it protects my reputation at work (and it’s bull that it has to be like that) and my coworker’s wives are amazing peeps to boot. It’s also nice to have girl friends for the first time in my life, I tend to have male dominated hobbies as well so I find it hard to meet other women.

    26. Staja*

      As someone who keeps separation between FB and work, I find this practice odd, myself. At my last job, my former manager would go on and on about how funny the wives of at least 2 employees were, but had negative interactions with the employees themselves in the office. It just left a funny taste in my mouth.

  10. Nervous Accountant*

    I’m doing an evaluation on an employee and I am not sure if I should refuse it. This is teh guy I wrote about 2 weeks ago who told a client that I ran out the door on Friday and didn’t finalize their return as he had promised them; he got upset that *I* got upset and tried to deny ever saying that.

    Since then things have been quiet–I don’t talk to him at all. He’s on a diff team now so I am not responsible for his work or calendar so I have no reason to engage with him. He sent me a lot of texts and g-chats, all work related whcih I ignored and stopped eventually.

    (I’m doing his eval b/c I worked closely with him, and his current mgr started just a few weeks ago so everyone decided it made more sense that my mgr [therefore my team since I assist him] will be reviewing him…this is what made sense for all of us).

    I am not sure if I am having difficulty being objective. I guess I don’t know what it truly means? I liked him and even defended him against my boss and constantly talked about his strengths…until that experience. It left a really bad taste for me.

    I don’t know how this factors in professionally, but on a personal level, I’m a very forgiving person in that i rarely drop people or go cold.

    I guess these are my questions/concerns:

    Am I taking this too much to heart? I’m not getting promoted right now but eventually if I do, I know I”ll need to have difficult conversations and remain objective as a manager which I am learning more about by reading and observing.

    -If I DO go ahead with his eval, I”m mostly concerned with the face to face meeting. My mgr will help me out with some things if I need it but for the most part, I will be doing it 1 on 1. I am NERVOUS AF about this and I can see this guy pouncing on this. I know he will try to take as much time as possible and go over time and I will wear down and get friendly again.

    -His attitude surrounding this really bugged me. I mentioned this in the last post….I would NEVER have pulled any of thsi with my manager or boss nor would I even expect a courtesy msg from them. I just feel this is something serious enough to warrant a write up and I want him to know that. What’s a good way to bring this up?

    -His habit of constantly interrupting, not respecting boundaries etc. These are personality issues and honestly, I have the hardest time talking to someone about that just b/c I’m stuck in the mindset of “well you don’t have the best personality (or performance or skills or whatever) so who are you to judge?”

    -I guess tips on remaining calm and cool. I get nervous and flustered really easily :(

    1. Temperance*

      On a personal level, I think “forgiveness” is a trash concept. You know the issues that he has, and you can give him an objective review on the things that he sucks at.

      You don’t have to be nice to him. You don’t have to convince yourself that you need to forgive him or that his issues are unimportant because you also have issues. No.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Agree. Very tired of “forgiveness” being used to bludgeon people into tolerating missing stairs.

        2. tangerineRose*

          I think people get forgiving and forgetting lumped together. I may forgive someone for my own peace of mind, but I’m not likely to trust that person anymore if the person has proven untrustworthy and depending on what was done, I may avoid the person as much as possible.

      2. Logan*

        I’m reading a therapist’s book on foregiveness, and they define it as “the victimizer accepting new boundaries in the relationship, and the victimizer overtly taking responsibility for the past violations and commiting to change”. Taken in that context, there is more to foregiveness (in the therapy context) than forgetting. And NA’s colleague doesn’t seem to have any reason to be foregiven.

        NA: The fact that you had to defend him previously suggests that others also have a negative opinion. So the problem isn’t that you shouldn’t be critical, as it sounds like it is deserved, but rather that he will not take it well. Allison’s podcast on tone earlier this week was really interesting to me, and might be useful to you. I agree with many, specifically fposte, about sticking to actions and facts. I have been critical of some people, and I was surprised at how well received this was by managers, but they specifically mentioned that it was because I worked to separate the person from the criticism. I took my lead on this from the racist / racism or sexist / sexism wording many years ago – no one reacts well to being called a racist / sexist, but they can be much more careful about their future wording if you say “Those words you used can be viewed as racism / sexism”. As with colleagues and managers – we shouldn’t say that they are bad people, but rather that their actions need to be improved (or are unacceptable, as the case may be).

        1. Specialk9*

          I’m not sure I can get behind that definition of forgiveness, since it sounds like requiring another person to change, and none of us have that power.

          I find forgiveness really problematic though, as someone who has seen it used as a spiked club and as a free pass to behave badly (especially observed in fundamentalist Christian contexts), so I wrestle with this often.

          I don’t really know what my definition would be, but there is something about resetting my brain so my anger at someone else isn’t harming me, and ALSO being allowed to set boundaries to reduce future harm from that person. So forgiveness as self protection and self care rather than a form of victimization. But I’m still working on it.

          1. Left the Rat Race*

            Forgiveness is highly over rated. You cannot forgive someone if they haven’t asked for it, have not apologized for the behavior and are not trying to atone. What you can do is UNDERSTAND the person and his (in this case) limitations. You thought he was trustworthy and relatively honest, and he wasn’t.
            No need to forgive, but going forward you must remember who he is (definitely no forgetting) and take it from there.
            In the review you can begin with his good qualities and performances, but then say you were very disappointed when “X” incident occurred.

      3. Nervous Accountant*

        Thank you.

        I can’t change how I am with friends/etc or the past but I can be better going forward, esp at work. This is out of my comfort zone but I know this will be necessary if/when I get promoted.

        1. Specialk9*

          I think you are going into a work task but your mind is stuck in social mode.

          At work, you’re being asked to give a professional assessment in order to enable managers to make good decisions about personnel.

          Socially, things are more complicated. (Though I’d argue that you might want to brush up on Captain Awkward geek social fallacies to check.)

          At work, you can give a balanced and truthful account. ‘I’ve found him to be responsive, thorough, and good at interpreting current feedback, with can be contradictory. On one occasion a client informed me that he blamed me for an error I knew to be his own, but he denied it to me. This was an isolated incident but it gave me pause.’

          You might also talk verbally with your manager, if they are someone you know to actually deal with issues rather than avoid them, and explain the situation – ‘I’m concerned about putting this in his official report, but lying to a client and throwing a colleague under the bus are problematic enough that I’m also concerned about not mentioning. How do you think I should handle this?’

    2. ExcelJedi*

      This sounds like natural consequences to me. He has poor soft skills at work, and has made some major blunders (like throwing you under the bus to a client), and his evaluation should reflect that. Focus on him and the fact that this is about his actions, his skills, etc. You’re just pointing them out. (If you’re worried about being objective, point out how his actions/words have affected the business, not you.)

      If he pounces on anything you say or makes it about you, turn it around by saying something like “This is what I’m talking about. You need to be open to feedback and growth to be successful in this role.”

      1. designbot*

        Agreed. And this is a good chance to point out to him, that whatever it was that made him think he could get away with treating you like that at that time, circumstances can always change, and the person you treat poorly on any given day could suddenly be in a position of much more influence, and he shouldn’t feel comfortable treating anybody that way.

    3. AMPG*

      If you don’t actually have any authority over this guy, I would refuse the evaluation. There are just too many ways this could go sideways, and you could end up with a bad working relationship with no way to address it. In addition, the whole thing where he badmouthed you to a client and then lied about it is something that should be addressed, but by his manager, not by you. You should give your manager the info he or she needs to address all the things you’ve brought up here, but these are issues that should be handled by someone who has the authority to handle them.

    4. fposte*

      It sounds like you’re having a hard time separating your emotions from your professional task here. It’s not about whether you like him or not; stick to the facts, not what the facts make him or how you would have done things in the same situation. It’s okay if you’re friendly, as long as you are clear on the message. So think about what exactly that message is. If he were a book, how would you review him? (If he interrupts you, that’s a messageable moment too.)

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 mainly because before this, you liked him and defended him, but now he interrupts and talks over people? Stick to the facts, and make sure you’re putting the recent facts in perspective.

        Go back 3 – 6 months and find three things he did well. Make sure those three things are mentioned.

        For soft skills – you no longer have standing to address them in the moment, which makes it *really* hard to address it in an evaluation. Is it possible for you to do a joint evaluation with his new manager?

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          Ohhhh this is what I was having a hard time understanding but I get it now, thank you for putting it that way. TBH i didn’t like the interruptions and neediness before but I let them slide bc I saw his strengths outweighed that.

          I would still say he excels in certain areas—that opinion hasn’t changed. I thought that was being objective.

          This is all super helpful, thanks!!

          1. Specialk9*

            Also, interrupting is a very cultural thing (and not cultural as in ethnic, though it can be, but regional and in specific groups).

            Some groups think interrupting is akin to clubbing baby seals. Others think it shows engagement and a good back-and-forth. There have been many many threads here on AAM on the topic.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            We don’t have to say positive things in order to be objective.
            If you have a negative thing to say you can do things to help yourself remain objective.
            1) Other people’s inputs/reactions do have to weigh in at some point. If you are getting a lot of feedback about his interrupts this is something bigger than just you. People around him need him to stop interrupting.
            2) One helping tool I have used is to look at Other Random Employee and say, “Would I let this or that slide with this other person? How about everyone else, if all my people here did this would I say something?” If you have one set of answers for this guy and another set for other people, then that should set off little alarm bells in your head that you MIGHT be over-compensating for this person’s fumbles.
            3) Having to defend people is a visual cue. What are the common threads running through the times you had to defend him? I worked with a person that I thought the world of, she was probably one of the hardest working people I have ever met. When she got tired or stressed she got cranky and some times bossy to the point that I got complaints. I would have to pull her to one side and tell her to dial it back. This would work into an update on life, which I was okay with. Her updates were brief and usually there was something upsetting going on. We’d make a plan for her to have time to deal with Upsetting Thing. She would dial back the stuff she said and we’d all carry on with the work at hand.
            The point here is some times we have to give correction to the ones we like or even admire. It helps to focus on what is good for the group, “the group needs me to do this”.

            Just my opinion, but this guy does not sound that great to me. But I am not there, so this opinion is worth less than two cents. He sounds like a bully and a know-it-all and he is working his way into being manipulative on top of all this. My best suggestion is to try to view him from the eyes of his peers.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        True, I see what you’re saying. I’ve always been on the more emotional side although I try to be logical and rational about a lot of things. To me this is such an “easy” concept but I’m shocked at myself at how challenging it is to execute sometimes.

        I accept what the facts are–he’s good at XYZ but A was so egregious to me and could have had a bad impact on the company as well.

        Sorry if I am stating very obvious things. Not trying to be obtuse.

    5. What's with today, today?*

      I remember your post, and I was one of the commenters that would have been extremely frustrated if my manager had left for the day without letting me know they weren’t taking care of it before they left. My boss does this and it is truly frustrating and a problem infuriating and…just makes no sense to us. He does it a lot, so maybe that is a difference with your situation. I understand your report threw you under the buss a little hard, but I absolutely will tell our clients, “hey, I have to get boss’ approval on that, and he has gone for the day.” That’s the truth, not a reason to write me up.

      I truly do not think you should evaluate this person, and if I was this employee I would have a really hard time accepting an evaluation from you.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I went back to read the original post, because I remembered having a completely opposite reaction, and I think you’re missing some important points.

        I told him I had to leave in a bit but I can take a look at it if it was a simple return. He sends it to me 20 min before I leave, which….wouldn’t have been an issue, but this was a big return (not difficult….just a lot of information and time consuming). Plus, within the first 5 minutes of looking at it i found SO many mistakes, so I put it aside for Monday (we don’t really pass off work to others if we are just leaving for the day).

        I leave, and 5m later I see an email from him telling the client “manager made a run for it” and told the client I ran out the door w/o finalizing it.

        So, NA said she could look at it quickly if it was simple. It was NOT simple. She told him when she had to leave, so if he’s any good at his job, he would have known this wasn’t a 20-minute task. And finally, he told the client she “made a run for it,” as if she’d left him in the lurch by running out early. All of these were inappropriate, and I don’t think he has a reason to be frustrated.

        1. What's with today, today?*

          After reading again, you are correct. I very well could be projecting a bit b/c of my boss. Best of luck NA!

        2. designbot*

          I do think in Nervous’s position I still would’ve confirmed with him on the way out that, hey, this was what I feared in that it’s a long return that’s riddled with errors, so I’m going to have to finish it up monday morning.
          That said, he did have warning that this might turn out to be the case, and shouldn’t have thrown a colleague under the bus that way regardless. However you feel, you don’t air that dirty laundry to clients.

          1. Specialk9*

            Exactly. Even if OP *had* left him in the lurch, which it sounds like they did not do, when talking with clients you have to present a smooth and glossy surface. No dirty laundry! You don’t ever ever ever complain to a client about your co-workers or company.

            Instead he should have said something like “unfortunately the person who handles that has left for the day, but we’ll make sure to …”

            As a manager, I’d want to know that a worker was inclined to air dirty laundry with clients. At a minimum it would result in some training. It would make me not put them into the running for bigger more sensitive jobs, at this time. I’d want to have a bit more visibility into how he talks to clients in the future.

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Just keep reminding yourself, the calmer you seem, the more unreasonable he’ll seem. Do not let yourself get rattled by silences; in fact, the more you wait for him to shut up and let you speak, the more he’ll probably blather on and look like a fool. There’s nothing wrong with taking a second (or a bunch of them) to compose your thoughts.

      Also, when talking or writing about him, make sure you describe his behavior and its effect as objectively as possible. It is much more believable when someone says “Fergus stated I did X, but I did Y” than to say “Fergus lied about where I was”.

    7. Nita*

      I think there’s nothing wrong with mentioning this in the evaluation – it wasn’t a personal insult (or “just” a personal insult), it was unprofessional behavior on his part. Both the poor planning when he gave you all that info at the last minute, and the way he made the company look bad to the client when it was really his oversight.

      If you think you can be objective overall, go ahead and do the eval, and don’t feel that you must leave this incident out. If you think you can’t, or that it’ll look bad, maybe just give your boss a rough draft and ask them to finalize it and make sure that you haven’t been unfair to the guy because of this recent problem.

    8. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Evals should be mostly about measurable and demonstrable KPIs. Start there… this will help put you in the objective mindset and it’s what the bulk of the eval should be on. What was his measurable success against his goals?

      If there is a place in the eval that would be appropriate to mention things like teamwork, credibility, customer service, etc. then this is going to be where you mention things that are more on the soft side.

      This gets a little sticky because there should be no surprises in an evaluation (good or bad). If you were his manager I would say you should only include things that you have already discussed. I remember your original post but not the finer details, so I will put it this way. Don’t include that incident unless his manager (either old or new) was involved at the time.

      As far as being friendly or unfriendly honestly you need to stop thinking about it in this way. Think of yourself during this eval as an acting manager. A manager is neither friendly or unfriendly, nice or mean, good or bad during an evaluation. They are factual, they use evidence and results, and they don’t base decisions on emotions.

      You will probably have to practice a little on the compartmentalization for this exercise, but it will help. If you are worried about the actual sit down meeting, I would request the new manager be present. This is usually what happens when evals are held during or immediately after a transition, new and old manager are present.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        The 3 of us did get involved. My mgr & I talked to him. His current mgr was looped in every email etc, but since he had just started days before, he agreed to let my mgr & I take the lead on it. But he was fully aware of everything.

    9. The Winter Rose*

      It sounds like you are not able to be objective and professional in carrying out the review, so I think you should decline. He deserves to get actionable feedback from someone who is able to separate their emotions from the facts.

      1. Specialk9*

        Disagree. Feelings do not negate facts.

        The behavior was problematic, and indicates that he doesn’t understand some important things about communicating with clients, planning, and integrity. OP needs to separate the feelings from facts, true, and write unemotionally, but this is a perspective that should be shared.

    10. OhNo*

      If you’re getting caught up on the fact that you’ve been friendly with him and/or defended him in the past, it’s okay to acknowledge that. It’s also okay to note that this specific incident opened your eyes a bit, and you view things differently now. It’s okay to say, “Others have mentioned Employee’s issues with soft skills in the past, which I assumed were minor and not worth addressing. After working with him on the X return, though, I have seen firsthand how those issues can cause problems for the company.” You can explain the consequences of that specific incident if it’s called for, but I think you’d be able to slide right into any specific points you think he needs to work on.

      It might also help to keep the focus on the impact to the business, rather than on the impact it had on you. That’s often an effective way to keep the tone professional, in my experience.

    2. Chaordic One*

      “Gumption” and “Grit” go together like… something.

      I always thing that gumption sounds like something that you could chew.

  12. Lauren*

    I work with another woman, “Vera”. It’s just the two if us in our department. Vera can be funny, but runs hot and cold. One second we’re laughing, the next she’s giving me the cold shoulder. There’s another woman, “Roxie” that comes in from another branch a couple times during the week. Vera and Roxie worked together at the other branch, but then Vera was moved.

    I like Roxie- we talk and even went to a few concerts together. I don’t have an issue with her- I think she’s awesome.

    I think that Vera is trying to pit us against each other. She’s always saying how much she misses Roxie and how Roxie is “easy to talk to.” Or how Roxie finished this project or that one, even though I finished the same projects months earlier.

    I came back from vacation and all Vera did was talk about how she misses Roxie and how Roxie didn’t take vacation, but I did. Vera didn’t even ask how my vacation was.

    I usually just nod or shake my head, but it’s getting to be a little much. I don’t know if Vera hates me or what, but it’s annoying and I’m not sure how to handle this.

    What should I do?

      1. fposte*

        I actually love that. I’d take all bite out of my voice and just use it to agree that Roxy is awesome. I also think it’s okay and possibly effective to respond to “Roxy would have had this done months ago” with a sympathetic “You really miss Roxy, don’t you? It’s hard when you lose that time with a good friend.”

        1. Beancounter in Texas*

          When people’s feelings are validated, they often stop talking about them so much. This could work.

    2. Secretary*

      I mean, do you actually like Vera?
      This is attention seeking and weird, I would just ignore her and continue to have a good relationship with Roxie. Be warm and friendly to Vera but don’t trust her to have your back.

    3. CoffeeLover*

      Maybe you could say something like “Is everything okay? You seem pretty unhappy about working here recently… you’ve been talking about Roxie quite a lot and I’m wondering if you miss working with your old team.”

      Hopefully, it will make her realize how she’s coming off without having to confront her about anything.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      This is about Vera, not Roxie. Continue your warm relationship with Roxie. Keep professional and cordial with Vera.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Vera is being Vera. This is who she is. It might take years to find out that Roxy has been walking on eggshells to keep Vera pacified but I think this is where this story is going.

        Sorry to be vague but I do have a little story. A Person who I admire greatly (My Admirable Person) and I were talking about a third person who, like Vera, ran hot and cold. My Admirable Person said, “Let’s do things to make her feel included.” This third person was not a high maintenance type of friend, little things here and there were MORE than enough to help her relax. We said hi in the morning. We asked about family. We talked about our animals. We discovered we share personal interests X and Y which lead to more conversations and added interest to the day. And we never went back to the hot-cold routine we saw in the beginning. Happily the story landed well with the three of us considering each other as friends.

        I think that part of the reason why this worked is that our person had the ability and the actual desire to be warm and kind, additionally she had numerous interests. So this technique would not work in every setting nor for everyone.

    5. lys*

      Stay out of each of their lives. Vera could cause major problems. (From experience) People like Vera also do not take responsibility for their actions.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah, Vera is waving red flags in your face. She sounds untrustworthy, so believe your gut and be careful with her.

  13. Llama Wrangler*

    Outlook/Exchange help needed! After 8 years of working in places with gmail-based mail services, I’m now in an office that uses exchange mail. To make matters worse, I don’t have a consistent desktop, so I basically only use the web app. I considered myself a highly-fluent gmail user, and am struggling to make the change. What are your favorite tips and tricks? Do you have any resources that helped you become a power user?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I love the color-coded category options in Outlook.

      Also, I make extensive use of Rules to keep my inbox manageable.

        1. Beancounter in Texas*

          I use the rules to sort emails I don’t need to read upon receipt, but will peruse later, such as the employee perk emails I sometimes want to utilize, but for the most part, I’ll just reference them later. I set the rule to move emails from that particular email address to a folder.

          I also get emails for a department list that I don’t need to read hardly ever, but when I need to reference something, it’s there. I set that rule to include a keyword in the subject, mark it read and file it away.

        2. LGC*

          Jumping in, but I try to keep my main inbox as clear as possible. Usually, I shunt routine emails like file requests to their own specialized folders.

          Since requests only come from our customers, and they usually use the same email title, I can set all emails titled [file request] to go to my requests folder. (It’s a word combination we almost never use otherwise in email titles.)

        3. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I get a lot of automated email notifications about actions that people have taken in a computer system, so I have a rule set to bypass my inbox and directly file them in a folder. They aren’t information I need on a daily basis, but if there is an issue, I can pop into that folder and search on the person’s name.

          At my previous job, we received faxes via email and I had those routed to a specific folder which made it much easier when someone would call and say “I faxed that on Monday!” I could go into the folder, scroll to Monday, and find their fax.

          At another previous job, I had multiple areas of responsibility, so I color coded all of my emails so I could do my work in chunks. For example, every email that involved Database A was coded yellow, so I would log into Database A and go through my yellow category. It was more efficient than doing Thing in Database A and then reviewing Contract 23 and then checking Database C and then going back to Database A.

        4. TardyTardis*

          I use rules all over the place! My political stuff goes in one folder, the newsletters into one folder, Quora stuff into another folder–makes my life much easier. At work, I had categories for different plants so I could separate invoices from them out and get them processed much more quickly (time zone differences between many of the plants made it interesting to contact them on the phone). That sort of thing.

    2. AliceBD*

      No real advice. Outlook is terrible and the web app more so. I want to reassure you that it is the product, not you.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Agreed. Not to mention that the add-ons I got used to using in gmail (boomerang and calendly) to increase my productivity don’t even work properly with the webapp.

      2. I am who I am*

        Eh, I love Outlook and hate Gmail, it’s personal preference.

        What I like about Outlook is it only does what you ask it to as far as rules and sorting and so forth, so I have complete control. Gmail wants to be “helpful” and tell me what’s important, and it’s so often very, very wrong. Even when I specifically tell it something isn’t spam, it will revert to sorting it as spam every few weeks. Drives me back to yahoo.

        1. Chaordic One*

          You are so very right. I like that Outlook lets me format my emails a small bit more. I especially miss not having a “tab” feature. Gmail just seems so basic.

        2. Fabulous*

          Same. I hate that about Gmail and refuse to use it because I seemingly don’t have control over my inbox. I’ve been using Hotmail for years, which transitioned to Outlook.com a few years back. It’s pretty terrible, but really only because it doesn’t have full Outlook functionality and it’s trying to adopt a lot of Gmail’s crappy functions.

    3. Susan K*

      The best thing I have ever learned to do in Outlook — which I learned from an Open Thread here — is Quick Steps. If you find yourself sending the same e-mails over and over, Quick Steps is a huge time-saver. For example, if you have to e-mail the TPS report to Fergus, Lucinda, and Wakeen every day, you can make a Quick Steps button where, with one click, it creates an e-mail to Fergus, Lucinda, and Wakeen, with a subject of “TPS Report” and body that says, “Please see attached for today’s TPS report.” and your signature. All you have to do is attach the TPS report and hit send.

      2. Nessun*

        Quick Steps are my favourite thing ever! I have so many standard email templates saved there now…and the same in Word. Two clicks and all that boilerplate type nonsense is ready to go!

      3. Fabulous*

        I never knew this was a thing!!! Gonna have to try it out now. I have SO many weekly and daily emails I send out that this would be life-changing.

      4. Washi*

        Relatedly, if you miss the “canned response” option on Gmail, you can save email templates in Outlook’s quick parts tool.

    4. Borgette*

      I try to keep my inbox limited to open projects, everything else goes into folders.
      Folders:
      – Resolved (anything completed goes here)
      – Reference (anything that I might need to see again later goes here)
      – Reference Subfolders (code, data, impostor syndrome vaccinations, other)
      – Administrative (Anything HR related, annual goals, weekly company updates, etc.)

      I use the color categories to tag major ongoing projects, colors might get re-used because the categories are more limited than actual tagging.
      All emails related to teapot analysis are green
      All rice sculpture emails are blue
      Urgent emails are red until completed then untagged

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Thanks. This is the big thing I’m struggling with — figuring out what I should use folders for and what I should use categories for. What’s your rationale for categorizing items by type of project, rather than making a folder for each project? (I’m used to using labels in gmail to sort by project, which seems to be analogous to folders. But then I couldn’t figure out what I would use categories for.)

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          You could also use colors for priority levels, if you want to go that way.

        2. Borgette*

          I tried a folder for each project, and that worked okay for very defined projects with clear end points, but isn’t great if you deal with a lot of short projects (too many folders) or projects that morph into new projects. (folders are too rigid)

          So, for my work folders are the BIG categories and colors are like gmail labels for projects.

        3. zora*

          For deciding what folder system to use, try asking around some of your coworkers.

          I had a previous job where we did lots of event planning and a coworker told me she just did folders by month, put everything in the folder for the month that an event happened, and then hid those folders into an “Archive” folder when the month was over. Then she new what folder to search if she needed anything.

          Currently I work in a company that does client-focused work, so I just have overall folders by year/client, and everything involving a client goes into that folder when i’m done. At the end of the year, I collapse the folders into an archive and start a new one for the client.

        4. AMT27*

          I tend to have folders based on work “type” (I’m in accounting, so one is ‘banking’ for daily emails to/from the bank, I have folders for each quarter of the year so pertinent info for that quarter gets kept together, plus ones like ‘policies’ and ‘HR related’ for employee info). Then I set my color codes up so I can tell what actions I’ve already taken for items – for me, green is “printed” so i know that i’ve already printed/saved an attachment for further processing and can therefore ignore the email but it stays saved in its folder, blue means ‘need to book’ if it has info I need to record on our ledger, orange is ‘follow up’ to remind me i need to take further action – it really depends on what type of work you do, what your workflow is like and what your actionable items ar.e

        5. DaniCalifornia*

          I only use categories for stuff that goes on my calendar in Outlook. I found it got too cluttered in my general email box. But stuff that needed to be reminders about, you can attach the email to a calendar or task. And then I use categories by color so when I’m in the calendar or task part of Outlook I can quickly see ‘oh blue..i’ve got 10 open bookkeeping projects.’ or ‘green..gotta remind Bob that this invoice is due’

          1. Llama Wrangler*

            Hmmm, that seems really useful. I’ll have to figure out how to attach emails to tasks/set reminders for them.

      2. Alli525*

        Yes, this. I have a strict Inbox-Zero policy (I currently have 5 emails “pending”) and file every single email as soon as I’ve taken any necessary action. My folders are more topic-based than yours (Emergency Management, Events, Intern Tasks, Website Writing) but I try not to subdivide them TOO much.

        1. Borgette*

          Agreed, if I have more than 5 folders sorting gets overwhelming, and I wind up ignoring some of them.

    5. KR*

      So I came from an organization where I didn’t get a ton of email traffic and we used the whole Google suite for our small org. I liked it a lot. Now I use an exchange and outlook but get a lot more emails every day. I email with people daily and get cc’d on a lot of things I have to be aware of or looped in on. Outlook is so helpful to me. I use rules, color coded emails, flag emails for follow up on ect. Got to say I hate the web mail version but if you’re in an email heavy organization you might prefer outlook/outlook online.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Can you give me examples of how you use rules and color coded emails? Also how do you use flags?

        1. Fabulous*

          Not the original commenter, but here’s how I use those things:

          Rules: I have maybe 100 rules in place for all incoming emails. They include things like “If it comes from Nancy P. file it in the New York Office folder,” or “Emails with ‘Effective Immediately’ in the subject go to the Announcements folder,” or “Emails from Jerry S. with “Report” in the subject go to the Reports folder,” and so on. Only pertinent emails sent to me from my teammates or boss go to my inbox. It helps to reduce clutter and organize my Outlook so I’m not continually sorting through thousands of emails. My inbox thus effectively becomes my To-Do list, and when something is complete I manually move it to a Completed folder. Sometimes my inbox has 30 emails in it, sometimes it has 3, depending on how many pending tasks I have.

          Colors (aka Categories): I use the categories to flag things I need to follow up on at a later date, or information that I want to highlight in my inbox amongst the other emails. It’s not necessarily a to-do, but more of a good-to-know, or I’m still waiting on a reply about such-and-such.

          Flags: I use these for my immediate to-do’s. Any action item that must be completed within 24 hours or so. You can technically set the due date to whenever (like a month or more out) but to me that gets too confusing. Once something has been flagged, overnight it turns red to makes it stand out more. I like my urgent tasks highlighted like that. And then you just click the flag again to mark it complete.

          So that’s that!

          1. zora*

            Another way I use flags:

            I am collecting requests for a room in our hotel block for an event. I make a folder called “Room Block” and every time I get a request, I flag it and put it in that folder. When I have a bunch collected, I go through the folder and as I add each request to my spreadsheet I click the flag “Done”. That way at any time, I know which ones in that folder have been added, and which haven’t.

          2. Fabulous*

            Also, the Flags connect to Outlook’s To-Do List (the icon looks like a clip board) so you can keep track of everything together there too if you want.

    6. Business Manager*

      I would second the rules and color coding. There is a way to do template emails too that is helpful, but I’m not sure if it’s in the web version or not. The desktop version has a tasks section that you can set reminders to and it’s helpful in reminding me to do certain things at certain times.

    7. Persimmons*

      I use Outlook for Mac. It requires frequent sacrifices. I have an altar where I place freshly baked bread loaves and fragrant herbs.

    8. Kat*

      My job has a large project management component and I use Outlook to keep track of the various projects I’m working on (I’m angling for my company to purchase some type of project management software, but that will have to wait for FY19). I use color-coded categories to differentiate between project locations and I use tasks to keep track of the status of each project. Admittedly it’s not the most efficient system, but it’s accurate–I also invited several key stakeholders (my boss, the facilities manager, etc.) to share my Outlook tasks so they are always able to access the most up-to-date task list. I also frequently receive assignments via email, so I created a Quick Step that creates a new task with the email as an attachment.

    9. zora*

      My biggest tip: I use “signatures” for text I have to send frequently.
      – In a past job I had to send things for approval dozens of times a day, so I set up a signature that was “Please see below for approval.”
      – In a current job we use conference call lines a lot, so I have all the conference call info saved as a “signature” that I can insert into any email or meeting notice.

      I use folders extensively and try to keep my Inbox small, but I use big buckets for my folders instead of really specific ones. And then I just search if I need something.

      If you right click on the “Mail” or “Calendar” icons on the bottom left side, you can “Open in a new window”, so I keep a mail window and a calendar window open at all times.

      I used to try to use the “Flags” to set deadlines and then use the task list, but it was a third place I had to go to find things, so it frustrated me. Instead now I turn emails into “Appointments” and put htem on my calendar (marked as “Free”) as reminders to do things.

      I have a folder titled “zTemplates” so it’s at the bottom of my folder list, where I move emails that I use infrequently. Like directions to our office, or the text for a monthly reminder email I send. Things that are not frequent enough for Quick Steps, but I don’t have to go searching for them every time I want to copy and paste.

      1. Bowl of Oranges*

        Someone mentioned this a few replies up – there is a feature called Quick Steps that does exactly what you use the signatures to do. Signatures can totally, but with Quick Steps you’ll have more formatting options.

        1. zora*

          I use signatures for text I have to include in a lot of different emails or meeting notices. It’s easier for me to have it right there in the toolbar of the message I have open no matter what kind of message it is.

        2. Bowl of Oranges*

          Sorry, I meant Quick Parts. Quick Steps are another thing (that’s also useful) – Quick Parts are the written text.

          1. zora*

            Oh, I’ve never noticed Quick Parts, I’ll look into that!

            I’ve been using signatures for many, many years, so I never thought to look for a different way to do it.

    10. Bowl of Oranges*

      One of my favorites is Inserting your calendar. On the web app, when you’re in the email compose screen, there is an icon towards the bottom that looks like a calendar. You can use that to insert your calendar availability. On desktop, it’s in the insert tab.

      On the desktop, you can also take and insert screenshots in Outlook (and other Office programs). Insert tab > screenshot. You can choose to insert an open window or take a screen sclipping.

      1. GeorgiaBlythe*

        I have been using Outlook for years – it’s not unusual for me to get 100+ emails in a day, and I did not know about inserting your calendar in an email!!

    11. LurkieLoo*

      Maybe you could find a different app (web based or phone/tablet) that you do like for emailing. There are so many different kinds of mail apps, I don’t even know where to point you for features that are valuable to you.

  14. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    Do you work with anyone who reminds you of a TV or other fictional character?

    One of my superiors is a dead ringer for Les Nessman, the uptight newscaster from WKRP in Cincinnati (classic early ’80s sitcom) who is extremely behind the times and resistant to change. He’s about the same age, from the same part of the country, same hair, and even wears glasses that are almost identical to Les Nessman’s. I’m happy I realized this – he always stressed me out before, but now every time he talks, I imagine Les Nessman whining “But…my hog reports!!” and it’s hard not to start to chuckle.

    Unfortunately for fans of WKRP in Cincinnati, there’s no Dr. Johnny Fever here.

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      I work with Dr. Johnny Fever. He’s the head of the science department and a creepy old hippy. He’s an institution here. Some of the other teachers who have been here as long as he has actually call him “Dr. Fever” because he resembled him even more back in the day.

      I wish we had a Venus Flytrap. He was cool.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        That episode’s obviously a classic and one of my favorites. But my *absolute* favorite comes from later that same season – Ferryman’s Funeral Homes, with the extremely creepy funeral director Mr. Ferryman and the really bad-taste jingle WKRP created for it.

        1. TardyTardis*

          I also like the one with Herb and the stereo salesman, when they’re stuck inside the stereo store by a horrible thunderstorm. Two crack salesmen, both alike in dignity…

    3. Tess McGill*

      There’s a woman in my office who is a dead ringer for the actress Mare Winningham. What’s even stranger is that co-worker’s name matches the character’s name Ms. Winningham played in St. Elmo’s Fire … and to make it even funnier, the office is located 6 blocks from Georgetown.

      2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        Does she wear really frumpy sweaters and chase after bad saxaphone singers too?

    4. starsaphire*

      I used to belong to a really big volunteer group, and I knew a guy who looked a *lot* like Kenneth Branagh.

      So much so that, at one point, his group did a Harry Potter theme for Halloween. Of course he dressed up as Lockhart. The resemblance was almost scary. :)

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Of all the WKRP characters, I think this is the one I’d want to work with the least!

    6. Temperance*

      There is a woman who dresses kind of like a female Steve the Pirate in my office, minus the pirate headdress. She wears those horrible cold shoulder shirts with a leather vest.

    7. Wendy City*

      I just switched to a new job, but old work had a coworker who I called Frank Burns when I inevitably complained about him to family and friends. He didn’t really look like the MASH character (although work-Frank Burns didn’t have a chin, either), but acted *just* like him. Negative, mealy-mouthed, unable to take what he dishes out, a total suck-up to people in power, and a truly horrible manager to work under (thank god I wasn’t his direct report).

      Frank Burns eats worms!

    8. Ann*

      The guy who sits next to me is very similar to Ron Swanson. Similar political views, hobbies, and is fairly private, but he will also help you fix your car or roof or whatever during his day off.

    9. zora*

      This was at a previous job, I had two coworkers, their job titles didn’t work together, but they were friends so spent time in each other’s offices, who were dead ringers for Dr. Bunson Honeydew and Beaker.

      1: Short, round, balding. 2: taller, skinny, with short curly hair. They used to actually do imitations of the characters, too, it was awesome.

      And as with the Kenneth Branaugh example above, we seriously discussed a Muppet theme for Halloween one year. My team was going to be the Electric Mayhem. But we never had time to pull it off ;)

      1. Lcsa99*

        Haha that’s hilarious. I would love to work with Bunsen and Beeker.

        My old commute, my husband and I used to run into a pair of grumpy old guys we called Waldorf and Statler.

        1. Annon on a barstool*

          Friday night’s I sit next to Waldorf and Statler at my local watering hole. The both mumble and laugh a lot. I am always highly amused by conversations with them.

    10. LimeRoos*

      I used to work with a lady who did her makeup like Mimi from the Drew Carey show. I sat at her desk for two months while she was out, thought I had a light-ish gray phone… then someone cleaned it and it was dark gray, her makeup had rubbed off on it so much it completely changed color :-/ Totally squicked out.

    11. Lcsa99*

      This is a great idea!

      I was hoping to come up with something not wkrp related, but the only thing I could think of is that I used to work for a large, Russian version of Arthur Carlson. He was mostly sweet and harmless but he was certain he knew more about the business than he really did and insisted he be involved in all projects rather than letting the experts he hired do their jobs. Unfortunately he never hired an Andy Travis so he ran the business into the ground.

    12. Deryn*

      No, but imagining frustrating coworkers as sitcom characters is one of my favorite chill-out techniques! I have one particular person on my team who is especially exasperating in a variety of ways (some are out of my scope of authority and some things, though annoying, really have no bearing on our work, though there are a few serious issues I’ve been working on addressing with him) and I have a feeling he’d be a fan favorite on something like The Office or Parks and Rec for his sheer ridiculousness. Imagining our interactions playing out on-screen really takes the edge off my annoyance!

      1. zora*

        ooo that is a great idea! Most of my coworkers currently are pretty great, but I could totally use this when I’m getting frustrated!

    13. Waiting for the Sun (Formerly Sugarplum*

      I do not, but am glad someone else remembers WKRP as fondly as I do!

    14. Chaordic One*

      I have a friend and former coworker who is a ringer for the comedian Brett Butler. She had the same kind of low, slightly nasal voice; the same deadpan sense of humor and she even had a drug problem. (Addicted to opioids.) The “MyTV” network has been running reruns of Brett’s old sitcom, “Grace Under Fire,” which made me think of it. While Brett Butler came from the south, though, my friend came from Barstow.

      I also used to have a coworker who was like a red-headed version of “Georgette,” Ted Baxter’s girlfriend and later wife on the “Mary Tyler Moore Show.” This coworker had a soft little feminine voice and just seemed very naive and innocent, just like Georgette. Sadly, this person was diagnosed with early Alzheimer’s in her 60s and she has since passed away.

    15. Alli525*

      One of my coworkers is a dead ringer for Tig Notaro, down to the short hair (although my coworker’s is curly) and raspy deadpan voice. It’s kind of fantastic.

    16. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      At OldJob, one of my supervisors reminded me of Michael Scott (from The Office). He kind of looked like him and definitely acted like him.

    17. Mrs_Helm*

      I recently described a coworker to my husband as “Cap’n Barbossa from Pirates of the Caribbean”. He’s less dramatic, and no costume, but otherwise…

    19. m*

      my grandboss reminds me of michael keaton and i can’t not see it once i realized that’s who it was.

    20. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      Oh gosh, I used to work with a guy that was EXACTLY like the annoying waiter that worked with Jennifer Aniston’s character in Office Space (I think she referred to him as “pretty boy Brian?), he even looked like him! Only, I worked with him in an office, which made it 50 times worse. He didn’t last long, that personality just didn’t mesh with the others.

    21. DaniCalifornia*

      One day one of my coworker’s SO’s offered up that our owner/boss looks like James Spader. I cannot unsee it. Not the Robert California version either, the Black List one. But he acts more like Robert California in some ways lol.

    22. only acting normal*

      I work with a guy who looks like a cross between Chris Evans (Captain America not TFI Friday) and Gareth Southgate (the England Football manager). It’s really uncanny!

    23. HRH Princess PP Monkeybutt*

      I work with two older engineers that I have christened Statler & Waldorf (the old guys who sat in the balcony on the Muppets). Listening to the two of them is almost like watching the show again.

    24. Gumby*

      I used to work at the same company as someone who was a dead ringer for the guy who played Sark in Alias. He worked out of a different office, in a different city, but once we were in an all day conference and I found myself feeling eerily uncomfortable and mildly threatened while just sitting there listening to a speaker. Turns out the Sark look-alike was sitting just behind and to the right of me and I was probably catching him out of the corner of my eye or something. Once I realized the resemblance, I felt fine.

    25. LCL*

      I cross paths with someone at work who I can only think of as Gaston. I would never say this to him, or spread it around for others to use. I have used it when venting at home to explain why he is so aggravating.

    26. Cedrus Libani*

      There’s a manager in another department with an uncanny resemblance to Gru, from Despicable Me.

      I’m a dead ringer for Dwight Schrute…and I’m a lady. I think I’m less annoying, though?

    27. Windchime*

      I used to have a boss who looked like Ned Flanders. Dark hair, full mustache, wire-rimmed glasses. I never noticed it until someone else mentioned the resemblance; then I couldn’t get it out of my head.

    28. SavannahMiranda*

      I work at a law firm where our office culture has vestiges of midcentury era personality. One of my Partners is a dead ringer for Roger Sterling in Mad Men. Tall, charming, silver haired aplomb. Very good at what he does. Great networker and rainmaker. Totally minus the skeeve, thankfully! Our Roger Sterling really is a good guy. But I can’t work with him without thinking about the show. Not to mention a lot of the office politics really do apply (minus the more soap opera-y aspects).

  15. Eternal Job Hunter*

    Does anyone have a job that doesn’t require being a people person, a specific degree and specific experience?
    I’m super organized and detail-oriented, and good at research, writing and “multi-tasking,” but am having trouble finding jobs that don’t involve people much and that I’m qualified for based on my education and experience. I end up skimming thousands of job postings each week since there doesn’t seem to be any specific positions I’d be a good fit for that I should narrow my search by, and I don’t want to miss something I’d possibly be good at that I wouldn’t have thought of before. Doing this has been very time-consuming, demoralizing and unfruitful.

    (Technically I see some jobs I’d be a good fit for that are part time or minimum wage, but can’t afford them. Even if I wanted to do them, there’s no chance I’d get hired as I’m way “over-qualified” because of my education and years of experience.)

    1. peachie*

      Are you interested in IT-type stuff? There’s a decent amount of stuff you can learn on your own (programming languages, etc.) and, while it’s definitely more challenging to find a job when you don’t “technically” (heh) have any experience, it’s doable. I taught myself SQL a few years ago and managed to get hired in a data/reporting role even though that wasn’t part of the job responsibilities of my previous job. And I have a humanities degree, so it’s not like my educational background was on my side.

      Our team is hiring now, and they really, really want someone who knows SQL and they do not care how they learned it. This is just my personal anecdotal experience, of course, but it’s been a fun and exciting career switch that I never would have expected (or thought I’d be interested in!).

      1. Eternal Job Hunter*

        I remember playing with HTML and some other sort of coding (I forget which) to design my own websites in middle school and thought it was really fun, so it’s something I’d be open to learning. Only problem is I’ve been unemployed for a while and need a job as soon as possible, so I don’t have time to invest in learning right now. ):

        I’ve actually seen a bunch of job posting where the position title sounded interesting only to find out they wanted someone with SQL experience.

        1. peachie*

          Ugh, I’m sorry. :( You know, it’s a long shot, but maybe you could apply to some of those jobs anyway? Obviously, there are lots of positions where this wouldn’t work, but one of my coworkers started in the same role I’m now in and she didn’t even know what SQL was–but she was really professional and interested in the job, so they decided to take her on and teach her. SQL is relatively easy to learn, so it might be a long shot, but it’s possible!

          1. Eternal Job Hunter*

            Maybe I’ll try. :)

            I saw a job today that sounded interesting until I got to the SQL part. Don’t remember the job title though!

        2. peachie*

          Also–that’s interesting about the HTML thing–I had exactly the same experience! My parents bought me a domain name for my 11th or 12th birthday (clearly I was a cool and normal kid) and I went wild with the HTML design. I’d kind of forgotten about that until I started trying to get a data/programming job in earnest; I think I really internalized the “left brain”/”right brain” nonsense and assumed that, because I liked/was good at arts/humanities stuff, I couldn’t possibly also like/be good at science-y/technology stuff.

      2. Bowl of Oranges*

        If you decide to go the IT route, be very careful and intentional with the kind of roll you get into. If you are in an IT support role (like helpdesk and technician type roles), most of your job will be dealing with people, just as much as dealing with computers.

    2. ThatGirl*

      My last job was in digital marketing, as an editor with a lot of research and multitasking involved, and while I certainly had to get along with my coworkers (and having writing and editing experience helped), I wasn’t public-facing and it did not require any particular degree or exact experience.

      My current job doesn’t require any exact degree or experience either, though it is more public-facing.

    3. Secretary*

      I mean, the most profitable jobs you need to interact with people at least a little bit in some capacity. I have great people skills, but it’s not because I’m a people person, it’s because I’ve worked really hard on them and practiced a lot. I’ve found the best way to bypass a specific degree or experience is people skills and leadership.
      That doesn’t mean you have to work in customer service or something though, just you need to be able to communicate well with people in ANY job. Working on communication skills can also help with interviews to be able to effectively explain why you’re not overqualified in a convincing way.
      Book Recommendation:
      How To Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
      Should be a must read for everyone. I read it once a year at least.

      1. Eternal Job Hunter*

        I know you have to interact with people a little bit in all jobs, and I actually enjoy working with people who are on my team (maybe not ALL teammates but at least the ones who are competent and kind). But I want to avoid anything where you’re the “point of contact” or where you’re going to be interacting with seven different departments, or other jobs where there’s a high level of working with people. I think I’d do good at a job that was solely e-mail because then you can organize and prioritize your communication, but having phone calls and in-person visits frequently interrupting me is pretty horrible since I’m not good at being put on the spot and find people exhausting.

        Will look up “How To Win Friends…” at the library. The chapter titles sound interesting!

    4. AMPG*

      Grant writing. I’m currently a one-person development department at a non-profit, so I do have to interface with donors, but since we’re largely grant funded and we don’t have much of an individual giving program, my time is largely spent writing, and most of my interactions are with the CEO or upper level management.

    5. Trig*

      You sound like me after I graduated. I had the good research, writing and organization skills afforded by doing an advanced degree, but my job experience was retail, and I had NO IDEA what to even search for in a professional job.

      What solved it for me was doing a one-year certificate in technical writing that ended with an internship. That internship turned into a job, and here I am six years later with a career, and specific things to look for if I need a new job.

      Is there a technical program/college near you that offers specific job-related certifications? Maybe have a poke around that and see if anything appeals, which might help narrow your search. If money’s tight, they might offer scholarships, and the program would hopefully allow you to work part time while doing it.

      1. Eternal Job Hunter*

        Definitely do not want to do anything that involves more education or internships. I have two degrees and have done several unpaid internships. I’ve already poured so much time and money into getting a career that didn’t pan out that I’d be afraid of pouring more time and money into another career that won’t pan out again. ):

    7. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      Government and public/civil service work. They love detail-oriented people with degrees who are good at research.

    8. epi*

      Honestly to me your description sounds like an administrator. Not all admin jobs require exceptional people skills– it really depends on the position. Some may have you interacting with the public or with a lot of internal customers, others you may be dealing with a smaller group of people involved in one process or department. I think it takes a closer reading of job ads, probing in interviews, and probably some experience to sort those out.

      I used to work with a group of admins who seemed to me like you described yourself: smart, organized, competent with multiple transferable skills that made them very flexible. They kept our department running and were really only dealing with people in the department and a handful of individuals who were the contact for something else.

    9. TiffIf*

      I’m a software quality tester. While my company prefers a CS degree of some sort, realistically speaking we’ve almost never had that. We’ve had majors in biology, math, english, photography, linguistics, music and more, including no degree at all. There’s a LOT of open tech positions in my area and most people with tech credentials are not going to go for the lower-paying QA job if they can get a higher paying dev position. See if there are any QA Analyst positions in your area and what qualifications those require. Some will list more technical skills but if you can ad hoc learn those and prove your skill without a degree then you probably wouldn’t be in too bad a position.

      1. Nancie*

        I just came here to suggest this. I’m actually a programmer, but where I work the software testers frequently come in with no formal IT background. (Sometimes programmers do too, but they’re usually at least self-taught in programming.)

    11. NW Mossy*

      When you say you’re not a people person, how does that show up for you? I’d guess that some types of people interactions are easier for you than others, so it’d be worth spending some time thinking about where you feel the most at ease with others. On the flip side, think about which ones are especially hard, too. You might feel like you’re not a people person because you don’t have instant rapport with strangers, but that’s not the only kind of people interaction there is at work.

      I don’t consider myself a people person, but over time, I’ve realized that meetings are actually the easiest type of people interaction for me because I can see people’s faces and they happen with internal people with whom I have a preexisting relationship. By pivoting towards those kinds of interactions, I ended up doing something I never would have anticipated 5 years ago – moving into management. Not saying management would be a fit for you (too little info to know!), but I suspect that you might get a lot out of finding roles that play to the specific types of interpersonal strengths you have rather than fretting about avoiding ones you might not have.

    12. Hagatha Fistme*

      Assuming you have a college degree, you may be a good fit for document review. Many lawfirms have an in-house doc review team if their big enough, or hire it out to companies that only do document review. When a case is gearing up to go to trial, there’s often hundreds or thousands of documents that need to be reviewed and produced and most of that now is all electronic (as opposed to the paper docs of yore). Some will only hire law school grads but others use paralegals as well (we’re cheaper!). I’ve been one for going on 2 years now and still like it a lot. It’s quiet work and you tend to be alone with your computer for most of the day and there is a variety of cases you’ll work on.
      I have a degree in English Lit and after my youngest went to school, I decided to attend the local community college and do their paralegal training course. I like that you have to be something of a detective and figure out if a document is actually responsive to the lawsuit at hand. Probably not the best job for a super social/extroverted person but it’s right up my alley. I’m also lucky in that I love my boss and most of my coworkers are cool.

    13. Det. Charles Boyle*

      Technical writer? You can look at job postings at stc.org (the Society for Technical Communication) and read about what the job entails. But you do need to interact with people somewhat for all jobs, it’s unavoidable. But tech writers (in some jobs, anyway) spend lots of time alone, editing/writing documents, with only a few meetings. I sometimes go days without talking to anyone except via email.

      1. SCORMHacker*

        I second technical writing, it is a great job for an introvert! You do have to interact with people, obviously, but not all the time. It’s an independent job, and requires a lot of concentration. I have gone days without talking to people when in the middle of a big project. I started in tech writing and moved into e-learning development (another good option for you, as well!) There are some great courses on lynda.com on technical documentation and e-learning (both learning theory and tools). Most job postings will ask for technical writing or instructional design degrees, but I have neither and have never worked with anyone who did, most companies just want to see your work and understand your design process.

        1. Flora Poste*

          Hey there, just for curiosity’s sake, are there any particular Lynda courses that you’d recommend? I’ve been wanting to try my hand at tech writing but haven’t been sure where to start, and my library has Lynda access :)

          1. SCORMHacker*

            Hey Flora!
            There’s a few Lynda courses I like:
            Technical Writing: Reports with Judy Steiner Williams
            Technical Writing: Quick Start Guides with Leslie O’Flahavan
            Ninja Writing: The Four Levels of Writing Mastery with Shani Raja

            I’d also recommend looking at Information Mapping (informationmapping.com), it is a documentation software but has some good stand alone training for technical writing and information mapping as a tech writing technique (which is not necessarily tied to the Info Mapping tool). Hope that helps some!!

    14. Snazzy Hat*

      You may need to attend job fairs or speak with recruiters for this, but you sound as though you’re perfect for back-office roles (I’m not a fan of the description). I sometimes go weeks without receiving a phone call, and the calls I get are either from people whom I emailed earlier that day, or from my boss whose office is a few aisles away. I never speak with customers. Ever. They have no business talking to me because my department has completely different protocols and security measures than other employees who do speak with customers. I don’t even mean I work in a high-security environment; this would be akin to the person who buys a chocolate teapot in a chocolate shop calling up the person who makes the box that the chocolate teapot was packaged in.

      Overall, my advice is to go to job fairs and be honest about yourself. Don’t warn recruiters that you’re not a people-person; assure them you work best as an individual. Check out the communication style quadrant (you’re likely an “analyzer”, as I am) for inspiration with the good qualities of your personality.

      Oh, and one more thing! Scout out companies you respect — bonus if they’re at a job fair. The cover letter I wrote for my current job mentioned that I’ve been a very satisfied customer of the company for many years, and that I appreciate the corporate sponsorships they do.

  16. peachie*

    I’m feeling bogged down by frustrating things this week and could use some less-serious story time, so: Anyone have any interesting work wardrobe mishaps/solutions?

    I bike to work, so when it’s hot out, I wear gym-type clothes and bring work clothes to change into. A few days ago, I was in the bathroom getting changed and reached for my work shirt, but–it wasn’t my work shirt. It was a very old, well-loved band tee. I’d been doing laundry the night before, and I guess I took a shirt from the wrong pile. My office is fairly casual, but not, like, band tee casual. And I had a full-team meeting in an hour. And I was wearing GINGHAM PANTS. Do you know what matches gingham pants? BASICALLY NOTHING. So, I ran to Walgreens, hoping they’d have one of those packaged tees that I could sorta make work, but all they had was an entire section of beach cover-ups. The best I could pull together was a lacy tunic situation over a coral tank top. The tunic was so long and weird that I had to do some creative wrapping and tuck it into my pants. Which was… fine. Not my brightest sartorial day, but, fine.

    1. peachie*

      My favorite, though, was at my last job. I got an all-staff email with a subject line like “[external] task force will be meeting in the large conference room today,” which usually just meant “FYI some people who are not usually here will be here,” so I did not open the email. WELL. I got to work and thought, hm, that’s weird, lotta blazers today. Our office was solidly business casual and it was a casual Friday, so I knew something was off when I counted exactly one pair of jeans. They were mine. So I opened the aforementioned email which had included a directive to dress BUSINESS FORMAL. I was wearing high-waisted jeans and a flannel. I looked like a goddamn farmer.

      Thankfully, my past procrastination saved the day. I’d bought a dress that fit but was itchy, so I was planning on taking it back, but I’m not great with follow-through so it had been sitting under my desk for over a month. It wasn’t business formal, but honestly, basically nothing could have been worse than what I had on. I had an itchy day but I did not get fired, so I chalk it up as a win!

      1. grace*

        Hahahaha omg, as soon as I read “I looked like a goddamn farmer,” I was cackling. Glad you managed to make it work out :P

      2. DaniCalifornia*

        LOL both of your stories make me want to buy a duplicate of a nice outfit and blazer and shoes and keep it in my trunk. I keep meaning to do this even though our office is fairly casual. Just in case of food spillage.

      3. only acting normal*

        Whoever wrote that email *really* buried the lead. 8-/
        Our IT team are terrible for this. Vague title about updates = all your emails will get blocked if you don’t change X.

        1. SavannahMiranda*

          Yes! Ours too! We get “Please read: Updates.” Okay. Three paragraphs explaining required system upgrades in a tone that is trying to head off people bitching and dragging their feet (spoiler: people will always bitch and drag their feet).

          The LAST paragraph says please reply to confirm your availability for a date to upgrade.

          Wondering why no one is telling them when their computer is available, and chalking it up to the aforementioned footdragging – IT, probably.

          Instead of, y’know, putting “Response Required: Tell Me Your Availability” in the RE line and starting the email with “Reply with a date for your availability for our new upgrades. Read on to learn more!” Or something even less clunky.

          Bury the lede, and you get buried in people’s inboxes.

    3. Free Meerkats*

      Every angst-filled clothing thread here makes me more and more glad I wear the same thing every day. Long-sleeve faded denim shirt with embroidered logo over a pocket tee with embroidered logo, blue rental pants, and safety boots. All except for shoes supplied by my employer.

      1. peachie*

        I used to have a job like this, and even though the uniform was aggressively ugly, it was nice to not have to think about clothing choices!

    4. BlueWolf*

      No solution here, but I once accidentally wore sneakers to work instead of my work shoes. I was in some sort of morning fog autopilot mode and just slipped on my sneakers. My usual wardrobe is dress pants with a blouse so it probably looked a bit silly. Luckily they were at least mostly black, but the bright pink Nike swoosh wasn’t exactly inconspicuous. No one commented on it and some people do wear sneakers to the office, I think due to health reasons, so at least I wouldn’t be the only one.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        My biggest wardrobe-related nightmare is always that I’m going to wear two different shoes to work. The shoes I have now are sufficiently different that I’d feel the difference right away. But for awhile I had two pairs of (really comfortable) shoes that were absolutely identical but for the color.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I’ve done this – one brown boot and one black boot. Different styles but approximately the same heel height. I didn’t notice at all, it took one of my (male) coworkers to point it out to me.

        2. Persimmons*

          Yup, I’ve done that several times. I like what I like, and when I find it I purchase multiples!

          TBH hardly anyone notices. People are not terribly observant as a whole. It’s comforting.

          1. Red Reader*

            Yep – I have seven pairs of Converse low tops and I deliberately mismatch them regularly. I also only wear earrings in my left ear – unusual for a woman – and have done since I was 12. (I am now 37.) The frequency with which people who have known me for 2, 3, 5, 10, 20 years or more go “oh, you lost an earring!” is truly amazing.

        3. Anonymouse for this*

          Lol – I did that to go running. Turned up to the track and realized I had two different sneakers on – both green but one was Nike and the other was Saucony.

        4. Elisabeth*

          I had two pairs of black pumps, but one had a 3.5inch heel and one had a 3 inch heel and I somehow got to work wearing one of each. I was weirdly stumbling all day.

        1. Deryn*

          I have a pair of old, beat up clogs (the kind that my high school friends used to call “potato shoes”) that I leave by my back door to wear when I take my dog out. I always take her out last thing before work and then slip into my nice shoes before leaving the house. I have come VERY CLOSE to going to work in my yard shoes before!

        2. JokersandRogues*

          Oh, I did. Purple fuzzy ones. My spouse brought my shoes to me. I texted my boss that I was in the parking lot waiting for reasonable shoes as I refused to come in. He laughed a great deal.

        3. Chaordic One*

          This story reminds me a letter that someone wrote to “Dear Abby” many years ago. While standing beside her husband at a church service a woman noticed that she seemed to be a bit shorter than usual. She looked down and realized that she was not wearing her usual shoes, but instead was still wearing her bedroom slippers. In the mad rush to get her children, her husband, and herself dressed and off to church on time she’d forgotten to put on her shoes.

          When she went to communion and then on the way out of church, she limped.

          1. Deryn*

            That reminds me of a somewhat similar mishap at church my sister had when we were little. For context, I’m the oldest of three girls – at the time we were probably something like 10, 8, and 4 years old. My mom used to buy a lot of matching outfits for me and my middle sister, which were then saved for the youngest to wear when she was big enough. One Sunday on our way into church, my mom notices my youngest sister is walking kind of oddly. Then she realizes that my sister is wearing the shoes from one of our hand-me-down matching sets, but each shoe is a different size, with one of them being laughably too big for her. It’s funny now, but my mom was mortified at the time!

        4. Middle School Teacher*

          I went to Walmart in my slippers once. I was mortified when I noticed, but my mom pointed out that at my Walmart, there were likely people wearing way worse.

          1. Middle School Teacher*

            Oh! And my sister ended up at our grandmother’s FUNERAL in her slippers. My parents were picking up but they were really delayed by construction, so they were really running late, and my sister just ran out of her house in her slippers. Before my sister did the offertory, my mom had to lend my sister her dress shoes!

    5. AutoCAD Teacher Lady*

      I teach high school. One day, I was doing a very energetic lesson at the board when my whole class fell weirdly silent. The front row was staring at the floor…when I followed their gaze I saw a pair of my lacy panties in the floor. They must’ve been in the leg of my pants in the wash.
      I just picked them up, shoved them in my pocket and said, “I promise they’re clean!” And then went about my business of teaching. Fortunately this was before Snapchat was a thing or I’d be internet famous for all the wrong reasons!

      1. Libervermis*

        A+ aplomb right there, you’re amazing! I think my entire body would have been red.

      3. Windchime*

        This happened to my dad once years ago (before dryer sheets were a thing). He got to work and a coworker noticed something peeking out from the sleeve of Dad’s flannel shirt. It was a pair of mom’s underwear, stuck there by way of static cling.

      4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        These stories make me want to go out and buy all new, pretty underwear instead of the various utilitarian pairs I have.

    6. Llama Wrangler*

      I had a similar situation when one of my shoes broke on the subway ride. I had to hobble to the closest drug store and cross my fingers they had something appropriate.

      1. peachie*

        Ooh, that’s tough–I don’t think I’ve ever seen shoes other than flip flops in a drugstore! Did you manage to find any?

      2. SavannahMiranda*

        I tripped and fell in the subway once, destroying my shoe and busting up my toe until it was bleeding. I was a pretty sight! (But I got out of the way and didn’t hold up the flow of people by god.) A police officer whom I asked for directions to a decent bathroom for washing up took me under her wing instead. She lead me into the precinct, placed me in a room, and brought me their first aid kit. It was amazing and completely unexpected. I doctored my toe, hobbled to Payless near the exit, and bought new flats. Had them for about three years and they were forever after the busted-my-toe-open-in-the-subway-and-a-nice-cop-helped-me-doctor-myself shoes.

    7. Justin*

      I used to run to work. One winter day, I forgot to pack… my pants.

      So I sat there in my running tights and Did. Not. Leave. My. Desk. I was lucky I sat in a corner.

      1. Hope*

        Once when I was doing a teaching internship that involved an hour commute into a different, earlier time zone, I went in with two completely different shoes (different style AND colors), and didn’t realize it until the end of the day.

      2. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        I’m forgetful, so that’s one of the big things stopping me from ever running to work (that and the fact that we don’t have any shower facilities here, and I sweat a lot when I run). I do the opposite, and run home from work from time to time. At least once, I’ve forgotten a proper running shirt or proper running pants, and have just run in what I had on. (Fortunately, this happened in winter and when I wasn’t planning to do a long run.) I give you kudos for running to work though!!

        2. ContentWrangler*

          I keep a big supply of (clean!) work out clothes in my desk so that I can work out over lunch or after work. It helps me limit the amount of things I could forget that would prevent me working out. Still, sometimes after wearing my gym shoes home from an after work session, I’ll forget to bring them back. Once did a spin class in flat ankle booties.

      3. Hrovitnir*

        I am so scared of that. I’m lucky in that I could probably get away with it (though it’d be a bit odd), and most of the time change into scrubs anyway, but there is an outside chance of having to wear sweaty tights all day and I am not keen.

    8. Trig*

      I live in a cold cold place, and I walk to work in the winter (or skate, when I’m lucky!)

      I also get very hot and sweaty very quickly as soon as I start moving. I’ll dress for the weather/being active, then change/shower in the locker room in the basement of the building, so I don’t even have to see anyone before I’m looking more presentable. To save my bras some washing, since I’m wearing a bunch of layers anyway, I typically don’t wear a bra for the commute and just put on my nice bra when I get dressed in office clothes. I’m not flat-chested, but also not overly endowed, so it works out.

      Of course, one day I forgot to bring my nice bra. And wasn’t wearing a sports bra.

      And that’s how I learned that a merino wool buff will work as a bandeau bra under a blouse or sweater in a pinch! (Combined with a nice scarf, a casual office, and limited in-person interactions, and I was basically decently dressed! Ha.)

    9. JanetM*

      Not precisely a mishap, but I was at work one day and my Vice Chancellor said, “We’re going to [former Associate Director]’s funeral this afternoon.” Oops. Ran out at lunch and bought a mostly black dress and shoes. The admin assistant who worked next to me, but for a different VC, was disgusted with my profligate ways; she would *never* buy something that she hadn’t researched, comparison shopped, and waited until it was on sale.

      2. Hrovitnir*

        … congratulations? [@ assistant]

        People are weird. I’m impressed with your resourcefulness. :D

    10. grace*

      One day, on my way to the train for work, I stepped in WET CEMENT up to my mid-calf. I was crossing the street mid-block and there wasn’t a cone or caution tape, and blam! I needed to clean it off immediately before it hardened on my skin/shoes/pants. Thankfully, it was at a time when I was in grad school, and our building was a few blocks from the train. The bathroom was empty at 7:30 AM. Mortifying to text my boss that I was running late and why, but even more mortifying – he didn’t even tell the other people in our open concept office. I passed a Payless Shoes on my walk to the office from the train, but they didn’t open for another half hour. At least I didn’t really like the shoes or the pants I was wearing that day!

    11. TheWonderGinger*

      I split the back of jeans on Monday, went to put my phone in my pocket and was like “why am I touching my butt cheek?” who knows how long I had been walking around like that.

    12. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I once came to work wearing shoes that did not match. Both were navy ballerina flats, but, they did not match at all. I went home during lunch to fix the situation.

    13. EddieSherbert*

      No solutions, but STORY.
      Back in the day at ToxicJob, I managed our technical writing interns at a very stuffy educational textbooks company (why did they even apply?!).

      One girl did NOT get business dress codes. Or even like…. normal people dress codes for when you’re not out clubbing?

      She wore yellow fishnets and tall white go-go boots on her first day with a mini skirt and off-the-shoulder sweater. I talked to her right away and sent her a copy of the dress code for work… and she didn’t really care / thought I was just full of myself or something? I was only a couple years of of school myself, and had A LOT of issues with her in general not wanting to follow my directions / verifying the assignments I gave her with our manager.

      Our manager (retirement-age-man) refused to talk to her about her outfits and wouldn’t “let” me or my coworkers go to HR.

      HR finally intervened when someone in another department issued a formal complaint because THEY SAW HER BUTTCHEEK TATTOO when she bent over to get a drink from the water fountain! …and HR’s solution was to tell her… not to wear fishnets.

      So she stopped wearing fishnets under the mini skirts.

      Problem… solved…??

      2. A tester, not a developer*

        I think your intern may have been my temp…

        We had a group of temps in to handle a mass mailing. The work involved having to match up documents, some of which were on tables, while others were in boxes on the floor. (The temps had been told this was going to be a physical type job, and to dress accordingly).
        Temp girl arrives in a short, tight skirt. So of course, she’s putting on a show every time she has to look for documents in a box. Since I’m the most senior female employee present for this train wreck, it’s determined that I have to be the one to tell her about the inappropriateness of her outfit. So I explain that this is the job she’ll be doing all week – I get that not everyone wants to wear pants to work, but she’ll need to wear something that comes past her knees.

        The next day she shows up in an even shorter skirt – and thigh high boots. I guess I should have been clearer about the whole ‘knee length’ thing. :)

    14. anon24*

      When I was a teenager I worked at the same place as my brother. I’m pretty well endowed – DD/E cup and it’s really obvious if I’m not wearing a bra. One day I was reaching for something and my bra unhooked. I couldn’t get it clasped myself and a quick look revealed a bunch of male co-workers hanging by the bathroom. No way was I walked down a long hallway towards them (pervert boss was there). Only person around was my brother. He was not happy when I demanded that he rehook me. I was like geez it’s just clothing fix it!

      Then a few years later he ended up coming to me at work because his old pants had split up the back. I sent him to the bathroom, found some duct tape, and had him tape them together from the inside. It was hardly even visible unless you stared.

    15. Ali G*

      One Friday morning, I got up and put on my usual Friday uniform of jeans and some sort of top with flats. I got to work and my co-worker comes in also wearing jeans. NBD, we were a pretty casual satellite office where I was the most senior person (director) but none of the other employees reported to me. All our bosses were in other locations.
      All of a sudden I hear cursing coming from my co-workers office and she comes running over to my office and says “The Chinese Delegation is coming today at 11!!” Que curses and panic – jeans are NOT OK for foreign delegations.
      I pulled up Google maps and found that the Gap up the street opens at 10 am. We were literally there at 9:55, practically banging on the door. There was exactly one pair of pants that fit me in the store, but they were way too long (I’m short). So when we got back to the office I folded them up and used scotch tape to “hem” them.
      Disaster averted.

    16. Alli525*

      Once, when I was temping at an ad agency, one of our big client teams came in for a meeting… halfway through, one of them ran out to my desk and showed me that the hem had fallen out of her skirt and did I have ANYTHING that would fix it? I’m pretty sure we didn’t use staples, but scotch tape (and a lot of it) was definitely involved, and after that day I started carrying a mini sewing kit in my purse.

      1. Emily S.*

        Having a small sewing kit in my desk, with an ample supply of safety pins, has helped save the day for me and several coworkers over the years!

        1. Annie Moose*

          Safety pins are the most valuable thing I have in my purse… not nearly as bad as most of the other stories in this thread, but the zipper of a pair of pants EXPLODED once at the very beginning of a work day once. The way the pants were, it was very obvious the zipper was ripped out, and my shirt wasn’t long enough to cover it. Safety pins to the rescue!! Held things together until I got home and could fix things for real.

    17. Environmental Compliance*

      My last day in a very large city working for the state gov’t, I wore a purple dress with an a-line skirt, and at this job usually with dresses I threw on nylons because the office was kept chilly. On my way out, since I had a 45 min drive on a good day, I stopped by the restroom.

      Realized in the parking garage, which was 4-5 blocks away, that I had managed to tuck the back of my knee-length skirt into the waistband of my nylons.

    18. designbot*

      Didn’t require any solution, but earlier this week my boss emails me to ask me to accompany her to a client meeting later in the day. This is only important because, I did not see her that day until we met to leave for the meeting… and we looked like we’d purposely matched. She’s wearing a simple black dress, I’ve got a black tee and black culottes, but we manage to have the same sillouette. We’re both wearing black wedge sandals, and our glasses look alike. Everyone who saw us walking out together asked if it was twin day.
      There was a time when this would have made me extremely self-conscious and have me worrying that she’d think I was trying to copy her. I’m extremely grateful to have grown out of that and be able to just laugh about it.

    19. Sophia Brooks*

      I always wear skirts, in the winter always with tights. I have a long coat. I once forgot to put on my skirt and rode all the way to work on a bus just wearing my shirt, tights and coat!

      I didn’t even notice until I took my coat off. I work in a theatre costume shop, though, so I was able to find a skirt even though as a plus sized person it was a challenge

    20. LKW*

      Twice in my career a client has pointed out that I am wearing my top inside out. One was a cardigan the other a collared sweater. The collared sweater happened many years ago. I woke up late and it was go-live day, which then meant walking from PCU to PCU with a disk. At someone’s PC I realized the issue and then just took my top off and put it back on (it was early, no one saw). Later someone mentioned that I had corrected the issue.

      That same day I had put on a new pair of pantyhose that during the day stretched and stretched and stretched. I had to tuck them into the waist of my skirt in order to hold them up. Eventually, after work I went to the grocery store and while returning to my car, they must have slipped from their precarious waist-cinched position because they literally fell in a nylon puddle around my ankles. I gingerly stepped out of my shoes, out of the puddle, back into my shoes, shoved the mess into one of the bags, looked up and there was an older woman.

    21. Do you really want to skirt me?*

      I forgot to put on my skirt one day when getting ready to go to work. I had my outfit for the day laid out, put on my shirt, raincoat and tights, then got distracted. I was almost at the metro by the time I realized I wasn’t fully clothed! Thankfully, I skirted disaster by realizing before I got to work and there were not many people outside at the time. I turned around and amended the situation, and luckily my coworkers all got a huge kick out of why I was late!

      2. JanetM*

        I almost did that one time; fortunately, my husband caught me on my way out the door and suggested I might want to re-think my outfit for the day.

    22. Middle School Teacher*

      We get a day about once a month where we can wear jeans, and I have recurring nightmares that I show up in jeans on the wrong day (it actually happened to my coworker once). Even now, I’ll text like three other teachers that morning: “it’s today, right? We get to wear jeans today?” Just to make sure.

    23. AdAgencyChick*

      At my first NYC job, I didn’t realize that the Halloween costume contest meant wearing your costume at the party, not all day.

      I mean…I’m not a big Halloween person so my “costume” was just regular clothes meant to be some celebrity. But those regular clothes were casual casual, and my office was business casual. I looked pretty out of place all day. :/

    24. Sylvan*

      I was once betrayed!! by a button in the middle of my shirt. You couldn’t actually see anything, but it was obviously unintentional and just ridiculous. I noticed it when I left work that evening. I have no idea how long it was like that. :-(

    25. NW Mossy*

      I’ve got a good one too! Years ago, I lived in Chicago and got to work via commuter rail and a mile-long walk to the office. In winter, I’d typically wear snowboarding pants and snow boots on the way to keep from, you know, freezing to death or breaking an ankle. I’d change when I got the office, and all was well. Until the day I forgot to pack dress pants. And wearing snow boots all day indoors is unbearably hot and uncomfortable.

      So that was the day that I worked in a pair of gray snowboarding pants and accessorized them with a pair of black, pointy-toe heels I kept under my desk.

      A colleague overheard me tell the story a few weeks later and piped up to say, “So THAT’S what was going on! I wondered what was up with you that day!”

    26. Canadian Jessie*

      I went out for lunch, weather was fine. Leaving the restaurant – it was raining buckets. Drenching downpour, not just a sprinkle. Of course, I don’t have a raincoat, or an umbrella, and I really need to get back to the office – so I made a run for it. By the time I got to my car, only about 1/2 block away, I was soaked right through – right down to my undies.
      I assessed my options. Went to my boss – who laughed at me (fair enough). I gave him 3 options – either I was working from home (frowned upon in that group), taking the afternoon off, or working in my gym clothes. And that’s how I ended up wearing leggings and a ratty tshirt to a team meeting.

      1. Binky*

        I once got soaked to the skin on my way to work – despite my raincoat and umbrella. I stopped at an Anne Taylor and a Victoria Secret on the way to the office. The skirt and shirts I bought that day are among my favorites (the bra not so much).

        A colleague actually passed me in a cab during the downpour (I wasn’t mad – I had just started so I’m not sure he was certain it was me).

      2. Delta Delta*

        Similar story. I worked in a gift shop when I was in high school. One day we had a field trip for science class. It was rainy, and somehow I fell into a bog. My pants were soaking wet and covered with black mud. I had work right after school and didn’t have time to change, so I wore my very short gym shorts. Got chewed out by the boss’s wife (who was not the boss) so I put on my muddy, stinky pants and she told me to change back. Showed her.

    27. WellRed*

      Minor: Had new plain long sleeved t-shirt I was wearing at office. At some point, I went to the bathroom and realized the size sticker was still on it. I had “small” stuck to my boob. Which is accurate.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I went out for dinner a few weeks ago with my husband after coming back from a trip. I had just gotten off the train, which was freezing, and emerged into a very warm and muggy city with a backpack full of clothes. So I whipped off my long-sleeved t-shirt in the middle of the public square (I was wearing a tank top underneath) and changed to a t-shirt I had just bought a few days previously before walking up to the restaurant. The next day, as I was putting the shirt in the laundry, I realized I had a giant sticker that said “£8” on my left boob. I guess the white-on-black sticker didn’t really stand out on the black and white polka dot top…

    28. An Elephant Never Baguettes*

      Definitely that day my favourite jeans finally succumbed to the gradual bike wear and tear and I ended up with a massive rip in the crotch area. Thankfully my commute is only 10 minutes one way so I went home quickly and changed – there was no saving myself otherwise. I love that I live in a city where I can bike everywhere but it’s rough on pants and especially jeans.

    29. Delta Delta*

      I’m a criminal defense lawyer. One day many years ago I was in court and had to visit a client in holding before our hearing. I was wearing pants. I dropped my pen and crouch down to pick it up. When I hit the deepest part of the crouch I heard a huge rip. Now, for those who have not had the pleasure of being in a holding cell, they are often sort of cavernous and have nothing in them. They echo. My client was standing quietly, so the pants rip was loud and echoed. I couldn’t see the rip so I had to turn around and ask him if I was having a wardrobe malfunction. He said no. We finished our talk and when I left I checked out my pants in the ladies room. Turns out the lining inside the pants ripped, but the outside was fine. Then, in the courtroom I leaned over and whispered to my client that it was the lining. He said he was relieved on my behalf.

    30. Hrovitnir*

      Mine is very boring, but I like to buy clothes second hand off the internet – if it’s extremely cheap I don’t mind the gamble. Buuut one day before the gym I grabbed the wrong pair of grey work pants, and it turned out to be the bizarrely oversized ones (same size nominally). Normally I’d be working in a lab where I wear scrubs, but this week I was in the lower containment one so I had to wear pants >2″ too big in the waist but tight on my thighs. I didn’t even have a belt, so I tied my lanyard around them and covered it up, but it was an uncomfortable day. I had to periodically get my access card off my waist then scuttle away to reattach my “belt” in private. *sigh*

    31. SpellingBee*

      Not me, but a former boss. He frequently gave conference presentations away from his home city and had scheduled one to take place at the end of a very casual vacation, but had packed a suit, etc. for the conference. He arrived at the venue late the night before his presentation, which was scheduled as the first one of the day. In the morning he got up and got dressed, and found to his horror that not only had he brought one each from 2 different pairs of dress shoes, but that they were both the left shoe. There was no time (and no place) to shop for a new pair, he didn’t think it was appropriate to wear sneakers with his suit so he went with the two left shoes. He said no one seemed to notice, but that it was the most painful presentation he had ever given!

    32. Green Goose*

      B/G – I’m a tall American and I lived and worked in Seoul, South Korea for three years and I worked in an office that expected business attire but finding clothes that fit me was a challenge. Pants were out of the question, and while the dresses and skirts fit me they were very short.

      I bought one dress that I loved – it was a button-up on the front, black and floral dress, but since it was so cold in the winter I would always wear a slip underneath it. One day we had an offsite event at the end of the spring/early summer and it was really warm so I decided to forego the slip. As we were exited our van and about to enter the event my coworker said that the back of my dress was sheer. She said, “I can see the pattern and color of your underwear.”

      I hadn’t realized that the dress material was becoming sheer with all the washes (and Korean washing machines are really rough on clothes) because I always wore the slip. Since it was the summer no one had a spare cardigan or anything for me to tie around my waist so I had to walk around with my underwear showing, it was awful.

    33. Cedrus Libani*

      A few months after graduating college, I found myself dangling upside down in the innards of a robot that had recently caught on fire. I was loudly engaged in some unprintable speculations regarding the sexual habits, parentage, etc. of this robot and its designers. Shut up, Cedrus, the VCs are here! Crap.

      So, I flung myself out of the smoldering robot, wiped my greasy hands, and tried to look professional as the great-grandboss introduced us. Then I suddenly became aware that I hadn’t tied my hair back, and it had been whipping around while I was upside down, and I looked like I’d been chewing on a power cable. Double crap.

      I got a pixie cut that weekend, and I’ve kept my hair short ever since.

    34. Lucille2*

      When my youngest was an infant, and I returned to work from maternity leave, I was regularly using the office Mother’s Room to pump. One day, after a visit to the Mother’s Room, I put my top back on inside-out. So I spent the first half of the day with my top on the right way, and the second half with my top inside out.

      I was also walked in on twice in that Mother’s Room. Once by the janitor who failed to knock before using a key to enter, and second by another mother when we both realized the lock on the door wasn’t working. I don’t miss those days or that job.

    35. Snazzy Hat*

      I wish I could better recall this story, but when my father worked as a forensic scientist, he or a colleague of his would periodically need to testify in court as an expert witness. Apparently one county in Virginia was notorious for giving the expert witnesses very short notice. Now my father was fine with that; short notice was annoying, but he dressed in a suit every day. One of his colleagues, though, once had to show up for court in something akin to torn-up muddy jeans with a flannel shirt. Dude started keeping a suit at the office.

  17. T3k*

    So I have an interview lined up early next week (though I’m slightly turned off that they want me to fill out a very similar job application form that I thought I already filled out when I first applied). Also working on getting an interview set up with another position that’s more inline with that I want to do. The catch is this position is a very expensive city, so I’m trying to figure out how much I’d need to make before I could even seriously consider that position, which is probably unrealistic in normal cities.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Good luck! There good cost calculators on the web, where you can put in your current salary and city, and see what you’d need to make to have the same standard of living in various cities. I linked to Nerd Wallet’s in my name, but if you google city cost of living calculators, there’s others.

    2. A newer Annie*

      Good luck on your interview!
      I would start by looking up cost of living for the big city, and your current city if you can find it. Use that as a baseline, then perhaps research what rent would be in an area that works for you. Car insurance might also go up, and you can probably check that with your agent.

    3. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Here’s a URL ( https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/san-jose-california/vancouver ) that I found when researching if it was worth for me to move to another city, e.g., Vancouver, B.C. I am not sure how accurate it is. But, in California, by law (as of Jan. 1, 2018), if a candidate asks an employer what the base salary range is for the “said” role, they are required to give it to you. Also, it is against the law for the employer to ask for your salary history. https://www.sfgate.com/business/networth/article/New-law-bans-California-employers-from-asking-12274431.php
      The article also states that several other states are following this law starting next year. Hope this helps.

  18. Snark*

    So, GODDAMN FINALLY, I am starting my new job on August 6th. Mind you, this is a position which I applied for in mid-March, was selected for in early April, and got a tentative offer in late June. I may have some Feelings at this point about the federal bureaucracy. I have gotten to enjoy a summer break with my son and wife, though, so that’s really great – we’ve done a crapload of camping, hiking, kayaking, and general bumming around the mountains.

    Gripes griped, however, my new boss seems like a peach and so does my grandboss, I have my own office, I’ll be working on cool stuff, and I get 3 paid hours for working out as part of my work week. The commute is longer but seems tolerable, and I should be able to enjoy some job security for the first time in a while.

      1. Snark*

        I will! We’ll be capping it off with a quick trip to Israel for a wedding, but I get to spend the next week hanging.

      1. Snark*

        I think it will be! I’ll be doing a small Air Force installation’s natural and cultural resources management, hazardous waste oversight, and NEPA compliance, so it’s right in my wheelhouse – and I’ve been a contractor for the AF for six years, so I already know most of the ropes.

        1. Overeducated*

          Nice, congrats on the upcoming start date! Being a resource manager somewhere cool and/or convenient to my family is actually my medium term career goal so i think that sounds awesome. Plus the 3 hours of working out is a nice perk i haven’t heard of. Enjoy the rest of your break!

        2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Oooh, I think I might know which installation this is. There is some very interesting archaeology out there, assuming you haven’t changed cities! Cool stuff.

    4. fposte*

      Woo-hoo! Congrats on the start date being in the same calendar year, and I hope it’s great.

    8. Libervermis*

      Congrats! And glad you’ve gotten to enjoy some outdoor family time while the bureaucracy races snails.

    10. Kathenus*

      Good luck, hope that all goes well. When I was hired by the fed govt the position closed in September, I got contacted for an interview in March, and I started in June. So I get the federal bureaucracy! Luckily I was happily in another job and didn’t need the income or I never could have remained in the running.

    11. As Close As Breakfast*

      Congratulations! The summer break sounds nice, but tbh, some job security sounds better!

  19. StartupScrapper*

    I’ve recently hired a new direct report in my current role. I’ve also been approached by another company about a potential role. I’m very excited about the potential new company and I think the role could be a near-perfect fit for me.

    Would love your advice and feedback: How bad is it to leave a job soon after hiring a direct report? Thanks in advance!

    1. Happy Friday!*

      It happens! People adjust and it all works out. I’ve seen it happen many times in my current job. I think if you do whatever you can to make your new report feel comfortable in their role and the company before you leave, it will be fine.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      It’s a bummer for the direct report, since she presumably based her decision to take the job at least partially on thinking she could work well with you, but it’s super normal. In any case, if you’re applying for something now it’ll be at least a month before you’d be expected to started (and likely substantially longer), so you’ll have plenty of time to onboard your new person and make the transition.

    4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Don’t worry about it. You’ll never find ‘the perfect time’ to leave a job. We hired someone into my group one August (my peer) right as our boss was being pulled over to a different department. I was told that I was going to be taking over my bosses role, which would mean a promotion for the team I was running and this new peer was going to be reporting to me. The problem was nothing was going to be finalized or official until the start of the new year and nobody could say anything to anybody.

      It was awkward, poor Patty Peer was really confused why I was heavily involved in her team’s goal setting, why I was going to what she thought was our grandboss’s offsite meeting with our boss, and why I was basically not stepping back from my role of interim manager of her group.

      I finally told our boss (the one leaving) that we had to say something, even if it was off the record to Patty Peer. They probably were thinking that I was an overbearing buttinsky that wouldn’t get out of their business and our boss was a ghost since she was already sucked into the other department.

      Glad to say it all worked out and Patty Peer understood the predicament after we told her.

  20. Tara S.*

    Does anyone have any experience/advice with negotiating for GS jobs? I know there are “steps” within each GS level. Job postings usually list what GS level is possible for the role, and I would think if you were qualified for, say, an 11 instead of a 9, they would give it to you. However, if I’m offered a GS-9 position, is there typically room to negotiate what step I am? Any GS-related advice appreciated.

    1. Snark*

      Just went through this myself. In general, you will receive a tentative offer first, and they will determine the appropriate level within the GS scale based on your education, years of experience, level of responsibility, and so on. GS-11 corresponds to a higher level of responsibility and education and more years of experience doing it than a GS-9.

      I’d recommend looking up the GSA position description for the job series you’re applying for. That description will break down criteria for GS ratings into a certain number of points. Unless you score, say, 2000 points, you will not be eligible for a GS-11 job. Typically, you will not be able to negotiate yourself into a GS-11 if you get an offer for a GS-9 unless there’s experience or education not on your resume that you can point to.

      All that said, however, you can ask to start at a higher step rating. For example, if you are relocating for the job, or if your previous job paid higher, or if your career progression and development would merit a raise, you can ask to start at GS-9 Step 2 or 3 rather than at the bottom of the scale. That is typically where you have flexibility to negotiate, and most hiring managers will consider granting that unless you’re marginally qualified for the bottom of the scale. You can also ask about stuff like tuition reimbursement, leave, and non-monetary parts of the compensation package.

        1. Emi.*

          You can negotiate leave in GS jobs??? I thought it was legally required to be based entirely on how long you’d been with the government. Any tips for that specifically?

          1. Snark*

            Sorry, I didn’t give that enough context – in cases when you were (as I am) a former fed or is a veteran, and possess skills essential to the position and acquired in previous federal service, you can get credit for that previous service to accrue leave at a higher rate.

          2. Salad*

            I have successfully negotiated leave in a GS position but ONLY because I was a contractor in the position previously, so I could count my contractor time for leave purposes. But this is very strict, there is a law or some sort of guideline spelling out what’s allowed. I’ll try to find it but I forget what it’s called. If you are coming in form a non-gov role I don’t think you’ll be able to negotiate.

            (Steps you might be able to, especially if you are currently making more than the step you are offered)

          3. Formerly Finally a Fed*

            I negotiated step and annual leave. It was determined entirely by what my salary (to correspond to the nearest step) and annual leave was at the job I was leaving. I received only three years creditable service to bump up to the next step of annual leave accrual, despite having 10 years previous experience, but the leave accrual ended up being similar to what I already had.

    2. Basis, also a Fed*

      As Snark says above, if you made the certification as one grade, you can’t negotiate a higher grade. You can ask for a higher step, though. The agency for which I work always automatically offers Step 1. I asked for Step 5 and got it.

      Some agencies might be stricter than others about how much service they will credit when calculating your leave. It sounds like Snark’s agency isn’t as generous as mine. My agency gives credit to pretty much every mid-career hire, as long as their experience is related. I was credited 10 years when I started, which meant I started with 4 weeks of vacation and went to a little over 5 weeks after 5 years.

  21. Anonymous fatty*

    I just started a desk job after 10+ years of working a physical labor job. I’ve been morbidly obese my entire adult life, and I’ve never been in great shape, but my old job had me walking 5 miles per day and climbing a lot of stairs, so I have been at a stable weight for a long time and I’m in pretty good health.

    I’m terrified of what’s going to happen now that I’m sitting at a desk all day long. I’ve seen a lot of coworkers make this move — from physical labor to a desk job — and almost all of them have had noticeable weight gain. The only ones who haven’t are the ones who are hard-core fitness buffs who work out at the gym for hours per day. I know myself, and I am not going to be able to push myself to exercise enough to make up for the loss of physical labor. I have developed foot and knee pain and it has been a struggle to keep doing the physical labor of my old job, but I did it because I had to, and now I don’t have to anymore. But I can’t afford to gain any more weight because I am already extremely overweight as it is.

    Has anybody gone through this kind of job change and managed not to gain weight? If so, how did you do it?

    1. There is a Life Outside the Library*

      Can you ask for a telescoping desk solution where you can adjust it to sometimes sit and sometimes stand? I know that a standing desk alone won’t help you lose weight per se, but they do help with the Sitting Down and Never Getting Back Up syndrome (that’s what I’m calling my current lethargy). If you are able, spending part of lunch taking a walk helps too.

    2. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      Do you get pretty decent break time? Take that time and just go for a walk, even if it’s around the building on the inside. Do they have accommodations for an adjustable standing desk? Not sure if your knee and foot pain would be aggravated by standing but it’s done wonders for my back pain. Lastly, try your best to keep away from office treats. Good luck!

      1. Anonymous fatty*

        I get half an hour for lunch and that’s about it. Another problem is that I sweat a lot when I exercise, and that was ok in the physical labor job because everyone was sweating in that job, but the office job requires me to be a little more presentable. I don’t think they would give me a standing desk because my company is pretty cheap with furniture. One of my coworkers rigged up a makeshift standing desk with crates, but she ended up taking it down.

        I’m actually pretty good with staying away from office treats, mainly because some of my coworkers have questionable hygiene. I’m not so good at staying away from treats at home, though.

        1. Dr. Doll*

          I have a Varidesk which just sits on top of my desk (varidesk[dot]com) and I can raise and lower at will. Cost about $400.

        2. Left the Rat Race*

          All the exercise suggestions are nice, but you need to bring your lunch EVERYDAY, never eat the treats, and at party potlucks stick with the fresh fruit and vegetable options, bringing them yourself if nobody else is.
          Don’t even learn where the vending machines are, and keep your lunch and break snacks in your desk with those little freezer packs to keep it cold, so you never have to go in the break room to see the junk everyone else is eating. On your break time and lunch time, take a walk with your Fitbit first, maybe ten minutes, and then come back to eat.

          Not only will you save money, but you won’t gain weight. You don’t say your height and weight, but people over six feet tall usually don’t need more than 2000 calories a day. You can meet with a dietician to find out what your caloric intake should be.

    3. you don't know me*

      I recommend getting a Fitbit type device and using it. You might not have as much freedom when you first start a new job but I have mine set to buzz and remind me to get up and take at least 250 steps an hour. It will also help you realize exactly how much you are walking and how to get in extra steps. There is a bathroom about 3o steps from my desk and there is another one about 130 steps. I use the further one. The vending machines are up one flight of stairs. If I decide I want something from the machine, then I have to use the stairs to go get it, not the elevator. I can park 50 steps away from the door or I can park 500 steps from the door. These small things will add up over the day. Alone, it probably won’t help you to lose weight but it will help stop you (me) from gaining more.

      I did start a new job about 4 months ago and was hesitant as to how my strolling might be interpreted but most people didn’t notice and those who did were cool about it.

      1. Secretary*

        YAS love using my Fitbit. Also competing with your friends for steps can be really fun.

      2. Tmarie*

        I also have a fitbit. I have the short way to the bathroom (100 steps), the long way (260 steps) and the really long way (520 steps). I also get 30 steps every single time I print a report. It adds up.

    4. JennyFair*

      I can’t really speak to the job change, because I’ve had a lot of sedentary jobs, and haven’t let my job dictate my overall level of activity. But I would highly recommend reading ‘Health at Every Size’ and ‘The Unapologetic Fat Girl’s Guide to Exercise and Other Incendiary Acts,’ for help in both the activity level/health and self-love categories. Being terrified of your own body is not a healthy place to be. I hope you’re able to work towards a happier one.

      1. TDEE*

        Agreed. Weight says very little about you as a person, and you shouldn’t be terrified of your body- just aware. But I don’t buy into the HAES concepts that being fat is healthy or okay.

        My suggestion? Look up a TDEE (daily calorie expenditure) calculator for both activity levels of the physical and new sedentary job. Stick to it, or 500 below if you need to lose. It might not be fast, but it’s not impossible to lose.

      2. Anonymous fatty*

        I try to subscribe to the HAES philosophy, which is hard when the world is full of anti-fat messages, but what limited body acceptance I have sort of hinges on that fact that, although I am the fattest person in my department, I could keep up with (and often run circles around) any of my coworkers at a physical labor job. People can call me fat but no one would EVER say I’m fat and lazy. It was really hard and often painful, but I pushed myself and I did it because I had to in order to succeed at the job. I’m afraid that, now that I no longer have the job driving me to keep moving, I won’t have the motivation to do it anymore. I have a pretty strong disincentive because it causes pain, but I’m afraid that if I stop walking 5 miles every day as I had been, I will lose the ability to walk that much.

        1. Luna*

          What is your commute to the new job going to be like? If you live in a city is there any way to incorporate walking as part of the commute instead of driving/taking a bus the whole way? When the weather allows I usually try to walk home instead of taking the train to make sure I get at least some exercise in. If not I would recommend walking during your lunch breaks and trying to exercise more on the weekends if you can’t find the time during the week.

        2. Natalie*

          This might be a long shot, but could you walk to work? Or even part of the way – you could drive to somewhere 2.5 miles away and then walk from that location. It might take a while, but that’s true of any exercise.

        3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          I can identify completely. I’m fat, but I’m also an archaeologist and most days I am digging holes, shoveling dirt, and dumping wheelbarrows all day. But the instant I get sent to the office or go through a period of being unemployed, I revert to no exercise and eating all the snacks.

          I don’t really have an answer for you, but I’m trying to come up with ways to deal with a similar challenge. I really would like to start incorporating some regular exercise at home into my daily life, so that I can at least maintain my current weight and fitness.

          Can you see a doctor about the foot and knee pain? Maybe there is something that can help alleviate that (orthotics, physical therapy, etc) enough to make it less of a challenge for you to do more walking.

    5. Iden Versio*

      It is so hard to transition from physical labor to a desk job — I totally know how that goes. I’ve always struggled with my weight, so it’s something that’s always on my mind. I transitioned from a physical, fast food job to a sedentary desk job where I was tied to my desk, but also had to run lots of errands to other departments. When I had to leave the office, I would forward my office phone to my cell (with my boss’s blessing), and would take the longer route to get some exercise in. I would also take a quick mini walk every hour. Having a fitbit really helped me — you can set it to alert you to move every hour, which was a nice reminder to get up and move. Some people in my office used their 30-minute lunch break for a walk outside (I didn’t join them, mostly because I get sweaty easily and it’s hot here all the time).

      Another thing that I had to watch was my snacking. I’m a boredom snacker, and there was temptation *everywhere*. Donuts! Cookies! Brownies! I wouldn’t deny myself a cookie or a brownie every so often, but I would limit how much and the frequency of those less nutritional snacks and substitute with unsweet tea, la croix, or coffee with half and half. I also snacked on nuts, dried fruit, and yogurt.

      I maintained my weight at that job and even managed to lose a few pounds. You’ve got this, Anon!

    6. Secretary*

      I hate to say this but if you’re not going to exercise, there’s going to be natural consequences to that. You’ll have to find a new way to get exercise in that works for YOU.
      When I moved to a desk job, within a few months people started asking if I was pregnant because of my weight gain, it was brutal.

      So now I go to the gym. My rule for the gym is that I don’t have to do a really good workout, I just have to go. I could do 3 sit-ups and go home and I would count it as a win. I actually ended up getting really into fitness just because I developed a habit of going. I also bring my favorite book of the month or magazine to the gym on cardio days so I actually look forward to it.

      If that doesn’t work for you, maybe set up something every day or every couple of days you can do that gets your body moving.
      -Go on a walk
      -Take your kid to the park and actually play with them
      -Go on a bike ride
      -Is your work close enough to walk (like 30 min walk)?
      -Go window shopping (I consider this exercise)
      -Learn a watersport
      -Join a kickball league
      -Learn how to swim

      I know it sucks, but try to make it fun!

      2. alice*

        This, so much. I don’t go to a gym, but I do about ten minutes of exercise every morning. Sometimes going for a mile run, sometimes doing some pilates, etc. I shake it up. It’s something that makes me happy.

      3. Cousin Itt*

        Shopping is definitely exercise!

        I’d second swimming as it’ll be easier on OP’s joints.

        Also the app ‘Loose Weight In 30 Days’ is pretty good – definitely don’t expect miracles from it in terms of weight loss, but I’ve found it an easy way to get in some exercise each day. You don’t need any equipment and can do it at home, each day is about 20mins of simple exercises and there’s a rest day every fourth day.

        1. Anonymous fatty*

          Oh, I would love to swim but for the fact that I can’t bring myself to go out in public in a swimsuit. I loved to swim as a kid. If only I had my own private pool!

          Thanks for the app recommendation; I will check it out. I have done some “easy” level exercise videos with simple exercises I can do at home without special equipment, so maybe that will be doable.

          1. A username for this site*

            I’m a swimmer and I spent years working for various aquatics organizations. I *promise* if you join your local pool (community rec center, YMCA, YJCC, etc.) no one cares what you look like in a swimsuit! A lot of people join to start doing swim or water fitness specifically because they are heavy for various reasons and need something that takes weight off their joints, so you get all ages and body types in the pool (and strutting around completely nude in the locker room, there’s no shame.)

            If you’re female, you do need to pick a swimsuit that’s specifically designed for exercise, because a lot of the women’s suits sold in mainstream stores are too flimsy to withstand any real motion and will fall off. A lot of our water fitness ladies loved H2o Wear’s suit with the ruching, the more casual Speedo ones sold in mainstream stores, or water fitness/competition suits from a place like Swim Outlet online. I often saw a lot of ladies pairing their suit with leggings or a sports bra under it, and a swim shirt over it, if they wanted to be more covered. For men, you’d want trunks that have a drawstring waist and if you’d prefer to cover up, a swim shirt/rashguard.

            I promise, there are plenty of pools where all body types are welcome and everyone is there for their health!

          2. NW Mossy*

            I’ll add as a former swimmer (bum shoulder, sad) that when people swim for exercise, they spend the vast majority of their workout staring at the bottom of the pool or the ceiling – you really can’t see much of what others are doing, and that goes double when those who wear glasses or contacts don’t use prescription goggles. It’s one of the reasons I love swimming, because it lets you be “away” from other people while you’re doing it and is a great way for introverts to exercise but also recharge mentally.

            Definitely don’t let the opinions of others keep you from doing something healthy that you love. One of my absolute favorite things about working out with other people is seeing new people appear and become familiar faces. I’ve met so many wonderful people this way, and seeing people make a commitment to themselves and hold to it is (for me, anyway) much more inspirational than any Buff Betty on the cover of a fitness magazine will ever be.

            1. Secretary*

              Yes these tips from the swimmers! I was so nervous about going into a public pool, but at my gym it turned out not to be a big deal at all. I also tend to cover up more and wear modest, dark colored suits.

      4. Robin Sparkles*

        One thing that keeps me running is podcasts. I am listening to different kinds and that has been a great incentive to run. And like you – I count the fact that I dressed, got up, and went outside as a win even if I end up walking or do less than 2 miles.

    7. Baby Fishmouth*

      I started a desk job two years ago and I’m only trying now to lose the weight I gained the first 1.5 years.

      I realized I was eating like I still had a physical job, and I actually don’t need that much food – so a diet change might be your best bet. A diet that is high in veggies and meat, and low in carbs and sugar, can go a long way. And do your best to resist the office treats – I still struggle with this, but there can be so many office treats around that it can be detrimental to your health. I actually made myself sick one Christmas by eating too many chocolates because there were boxes and boxes of them all over the office.

      Also, you don’t have to spend every night at the gym, but you will need to do SOME exercise. Go for walks each night, or find a type of exercise you don’t mind – I love certain exercise classes, so I found some in my neighbourhood (that I have to sign up for – I will lose money if I don’t show up!). There are also a lot of types of exercises that most people don’t think of – for those with joint pain, a lot of water sports can be really good, but there’s also all types of martial arts, fitness classes, hula hooping classes, etc. that are genuinely fun, and which have alterations for those with joint pain or injuries. I recently discovered pole dancing/fitness and love it so much more than I thought I would – and there are people of all sizes at my studio.

      I know it’s said over and over again, but diet and exercise are the only good ways not to gain any weight. The key is to find a way to eat and exercise so you actually enjoy it (or at least, don’t mind it). And talk to your doctor, if you’re able – he or she might be able to give you suggestions more tailored to you.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree. Counter the reduced movement by switching up the diet (I mean diet in the general sense of eating).

        1. Luna*

          Second this, I want to add that the exercise is not just about weight. When working a desk job getting out and moving around (whether doing an outdoor activity, going to the gym, taking a class, or just walking up and down the stairs of your office building) is really important for mental health too. Sitting and staring at a screen all day is NOT fun, no matter how much you like the actual work, and will take some time to adjust too since it sounds like you’re used to being active most of the day. Humans need to move around! The days when I don’t manage to get out and about at all are pretty miserable, both physically and mentally.

        2. The Other Dawn*

          Yes, definitely. If OP was eating 4,000 calories (just a random number) and burning off the same amount of calories doing physical labor, that’s why they were maintaining. But being at a desk now, OP isn’t going to be burning 4,000 calories a day and if they still eat that many calories, they’re going to gain. Exercise is important, but adjusting calorie intake is more important, I feel, in battling the weight gain.

    8. peanutbutty*

      I went from teaching (not physical labour by any stretch, but lots of time on my feet) to desk job and did noticed a weight increase. Have *just about* managed to get back down, here’s things that helped:

      (1) I walk to work and back (25-30 minutes each day). I use a step tracker: with the walk-commute I usually reach 10k steps; when I was lazy and took the bus I usually reached less than 1k steps. I got fatter. So number 1 tip is work out a way to include at least 30 min walk into your commute. Park in a different car park? Get off the bus at the wrong stop? But find a way to make this a part of your commute on 99% days.

      (2) Don’t keep treats at your desk. Just don’t. You won’t save them up for a rainy day; you’ll gobble them all up when no one is looking or even if they are. And then you’ll have a sugar headache all afternoon.

      (3) Walking meetings. Have a meeting where you need to discuss but not refer to or take extensive notes? Schedule a walking meeting instead. People thought I was weird at first but now they love it. We are lucky to have a big park next to our office so I can do a circuit of that for a 30min meeting; but even talking while you walk 15 min to a coffee place / different office venue and then back again would help.

      (4) Find out who the office “feeder” is and avoid them. Ask them outright not to offer you cakes etc. If you have a lot of doughnut-y meetings, start bringing a bunch of grapes instead (in my experience most people are glad of the grapes option) and then make sure you eat the grapes not the doughnuts! If the grapes are popular you could ask (after a while) if people would mind switching the catering to fruit not doughnuts.

      (5) If walking meetings or a walk-commute are really not an option then try to find a walk buddy and enlist them to go out for a lunchtime walk with you **in all weathers**. Make it a red line, like you can’t go out for lunch until you’ve had your walk.

      (6) Even with the added walking, realistically you probably need to reduce calories as well in order to not gain at what will still be drastically lower activity level. So basic calorie lowering hacks (diet soda not full sugar, bring your own packed lunch, grapes not doughnuts etc).

      Good luck.

    9. Jessi*

      Can I suggest that you look at the other side of the weight equation and focus on diet? If you are no longer going to be doing tons of exercise it would make sense to look at what you are eating , maybe reduce your calories or look to replace a couple of meals/snacks with healthier options

    10. Kaybee*

      I’ve had to lose – and am still working on losing – a lot of weight for medical reasons, and I have a desk job. I know you’re concerned about maintaining, but with a decrease in physical activity, I think there might be some similarities in our situations. I see that you mention above that you only have a half hour lunch and you get really sweaty, so you’re not thrilled with the idea of walking at lunch. I’d still recommend it if possible. I also get really, really sweaty, so I do my best to work around it. I have extra deodorant at my desk, I wear dark clothes that are less likely to show sweat, I wear layers and remove some when I take my walk, which helps keep me cooler and allows me to put on sweat-free things when I’m back in the building, and I have a small desk fan that dries me off after a walk, which helps enormously.

      That said, you can keep active in a bunch of small ways. If you have a choice of restrooms at your new job, use the ones farthest away from you. You’d be surprised how fast an extra 200 steps from a bathroom trip adds up during the day. Basically, any way you can incorporate extra walking as part of your regular activities, do it. It really does add up.

      Once you’ve been at your job for awhile, you might consider having your resting metabolic rate calculated. Many hospitals offer this service – at my local Kaiser it’s about $35 – and your breathe into a snorkel-like thing for about 10 minutes, and the machine spits out a range of calories that your body uses just to exist basically. It’s not perfect; I’d recommend using that as a starting point and not treating it like a commandment, but it gives you a place to start for trial and error to figure out how many calories you can consume with the decrease in physical activity.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        I was going to suggest some of the smaller things too and not just at work in your personal life too when able.

        *Park far away from your office door
        *Use stairs instead of elevator if an option
        *Instead of email, phone, and IM get up and walk to the person you need to talk to
        *Instead of a long 1/2 hour walk on lunch, take a 5- 10 min sprint walks throughout the day (combine with the one above if possible)
        *If possible move while sitting at your desk, do some leg lifts while you are working. Stand up and pace if you are on a long call with a headset or walk in place with high knees.
        *Invest in some inconspicuous ankle or wrist weights to your walking (The kind with velcro that you can strap on).
        *at home maybe invest in some equipment, exercise bike, treadmill, or rowing machine (really could be anything) that you can do while you are watching tv or reading.
        *I would try a fitbit or other type device

        You mentioned the swimming thing but don’t want to wear a swim suit, they do make swim pants and tops with more coverage.

    11. epi*

      It’s awesome that you are thinking about this now. I think there is some really good advice in the thread.

      I want to also put a plug in for seeing a nutritionist. Based on your body composition and the fact that it sounds like you do have some mobility issues that might be related to weight, you should be able to get a referral and get that covered.

      Nutritionists are amazing. A big part of their role is helping you identify your health goals and the barriers *for you*, then making a plan and finding measurable ways to do what you need to do. My husband has also been overweight or obese his whole adult life, and has been seeing a nutritionist for several months. They have found strategies that are really doable for him specifically, added them one or two at a time so they’re not overwhelming, and really helped him make a big change in a way that did not feel like a huge deal. I’m not sure if this is a factor for you, but the fact that she was giving him written information and simple, actionable suggestions also made it easier for me to be supportive. He just told me this morning he is at his lowest weight in 5 years. Overall, it’s just really worth doing even though you probably know what a “good” diet looks like. You don’t necessarily need to a set a goal of losing weight, transitioning to probably getting less exercise is a totally valid goal.

      You don’t need to start spending all your time at the gym, but I would suggest trying to do two things: work some physical activity into your day where it’s hard to avoid, like into your errands or commute; experiment with ways to get some physical activity that feel fun to you even if they are very low impact. Not getting as much physical activity as you need can impact your concentration and mood, but it can be hard to recognize that’s what’s happening, especially if your exercise before was just part of your day and not a hobby or “you time”. Don’t be afraid to keep trying different things, or just constantly mix it up. I think my most physically active, fit friend switches gyms at the drop of a hat and is constantly starting a new class or trying a new place. You can use Groupon to do this for cheap and try new things. Some people just like variety!

    12. MissDisplaced*

      Yes, get a standing desk if at all possible and then stand to do your computer work/meetings, etc.
      Go for a walk at lunch.
      Use a headset/cell phone and walk around (indoors or out) while you’re on the phone meetings, especially if you’re mostly in listening mode. (my boss does this)
      And just try to keep walking more in general.

    13. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      How do you commute to work? if you take public transportation, you can get off a few stops from your office and walk and do the same going home–get your bus or train a few stops from your office. That’s what I do and it really helps.

    14. DaniCalifornia*

      If you can walk around at lunch, even a slow paced 15 min walk is helpful. I see you only have 30 mins for lunch but even twice a week is better than nothing.

      Do you have a fitbit or smartwach. I have used a fitbit and apple watch. Both can be set up to remind you once an hour to stand up and move around. It helps because I am also MO and am trying to lose weight! Fitbit reminds you at 10 to the hour to try and get in 250 steps. Apple watch reminds you at the same time to get up and stand for at least 1 minute. It’s just a slight quick vibrate on your wrist, no sounds if you don’t want it. If I haven’t gotten up it’s surprisingly helpful as a reminder and I stretch or stand and work. I have bad back pain and sitting too long makes it worse.

    15. Kathenus*

      I’ve not been in the same exact situation but now in management (more desk and meetings) from a career that was more physical labor so some similarities. I’m also of an age where the weight seems harder to get off and the weight plateaus are higher and higher for me. I got an under desk elliptical which isn’t going to make me fit to run a marathon or anything, but I fidget my legs a lot anyway so now I can put that into a bit of exercise when I’m at my computer for long stretches.

    16. nonegiven*

      My parents started using an exercise bike when they needed more exercise and weren’t really safe with anything else. You can watch TV or read while you do it and the large leg muscles really burn a lot of energy.

    17. Lucille2*

      There are tons of small things that come with desk job office culture that really add up. Aside from making any major lifestyle changes, here’s a list of small habits that can make a difference:

      – Avoid free snack and/or soda offerings in the office, free lunches (they’re never healthy), or the candy bowl at a nearby coworkers desk. People will try to push this stuff on you, but after you turn them down enough times, they’ll leave you alone.

      – Bring lunch from home. You’ll save serious $ and calories. I’m convinced anything you order in a restaurant can be made at home with far fewer calories. If you want to engage in social lunch outings with coworkers, just be sure to limit these.

      – Park farther away and take the stairs. I was on the 4th floor of Last Job. People noticed I took the stairs…not many of us did. But a few were inspired and joined me.

      – Walk over to someone’s desk for a chat instead of sending an email – when practical and when documentation is not required. This is also good for building relationships at work.

      – Take a lunch hour walk. It’s a great way to de-stress too.

  22. Aleta*

    Sooooo, turns out being trained to be a huge hard*ss about anything you have to Turn In since you were old enough to understand the concept (“It doesn’t matter if I can recognize your handwriting, if you’re name’s not on it you don’t get credit”), and then moving into Working where they do NOT want you to be a hard*ss is not particularly fun!

    (if you’re curious, I’m Latinx, a Rules Follower, and my schooling goes homeschooled by white mom but mostly self-directed –> high school in Hong Kong —> reasonably prestigious univeristy in the Northeast)

    1. HR for today*

      Yup. I had to learn (the hard way) that, at work, my boss would prefer to have something that’s imperfect but on time rather than perfect but late.

    2. SavannahMiranda*

      Yes it can be rdemotivating for people who have internalized those really high standards.

      I worked at a law firm that had protocols and practices for absolutely everything down to the size (10pt) and shape (italics) of the font (TNR) of the footers in the exhibit pages of the hundred page documents. I thought this was maddening, but everything we produced came out polished, clean, consistent, and impressive.

      I now work where some attorneys do it one way, others another way, I have to remember which attorney wants things which way, which ones will change things back if I change them, which ones won’t change it back but will make me do so and fuss at me, and which attorneys I’ve convinced my clean and clear ways are better and will let me amend their templates going forward.

      It’s more maddening than simply having a hard*ss protocol. And surprise, surprise, our documents do not represent the firm consistently.

      Oh, for hard*ass rules followers. How I love actually love thee.

  23. Iden Versio*

    Lawyers, how do you balance work and life? If having a work-life balance is more important to you than a large salary, what sort of firm did you look for? Any general legal firm job-hunting tips?

    For context: I am a second-year law student near a mid-sized midwestern city. There are plenty of job opportunities in my area (ranging from big law to solo practice) and I would like to stay here post-graduation. On-campus interviews begin in August for summer 2019 so I am starting to think about my post-graduate wishlist, such as a good salary, interesting work, supportive company culture, and work-life balance to name a few. Obviously, law is a field that will demand a lot of time. I am fine with working more than 40 hours a week. However… I do not want to spend 12 hours a day and all of my weekends in the office. I want to be able to enjoy my salary and spend time with friends and, most importantly, my dog. I also want to be able to travel a bit.

    I do have some debt that I would like to pay off sooner rather than later, so a non-profit is probably not financially feasible. Big law, frankly, terrifies me. As I alluded to above, I do not want to be worked to death. Any tips for finding a decent work-life balance in the legal field? Or is that an oxymoron and there’s no hope of achieving a decent balance at all?

    1. J*

      Consider a plan where you work for a firm with not-so-terrible billable hours and a salary that will allow you to pay off your debt. Stay there for 3-5 years, gain experience and then look for a translatable in-house position at a corporation. I did this and now work 8:30-5 with a salary not unlike BigLaw. No weekends, rarely anything at night, and a range of steady, interesting work for a single client.

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          In-house generally doesn’t hire straight out of law school. Do the time at a firm in the field you eventually want to enter. Firms are really set up to train new lawyers — in-house isn’t. Honestly, if you find the right firm, life can be quite good. I like in-house better, not because of the hours so much as the nature of the work.

          1. Iden Versio*

            Good to know! I am not dead-set either way, but I figured I would probably go the traditional firm route first. Choosing one…? That’s the scary part.

            1. zora*

              From my lawyer friends: it’s all about networking. Lawyers love to do it. Get involved in bar groups, etc, whatever lawyer groups appeal to you, and ask around a lot. If you have the geographical area picked out it will be easier. So, ask a lot of questions about the different firms, and keep a “Yes” “No” “Maybe” list. You will find this info by asking around, not from the interview.

    2. Just Me*

      While not an attorney, I did graduate law school and work in a law adjacent field. I decided not to practice because of those same concerns. Finding a balance is going to depend on your priorities, but there are definitely levels. If work/life balance is a priority for you, consider things like JD preferred positions and organizations that aren’t driven by profit. PSLF is currently still a thing. That’s still no guarantee.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Second what J said. Moreover, there are not that many firms in “mid-sized” midwestern cities (I am in Minneapolis) that work one to death, with one notable exception. Aim towards a mid-sized firm and you should be fine. Starting out in “Big” law (or at least medium) gives you great training and great contacts. I started out my career at that one mega-firm I alluded to above, the one that works people to death, and our saying was “BigFirm is a great place to leave.” I subsequently went to a medium (175 attorney at the time) firm and it was totally different.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        I note that after my stint with firms, I then went in house, which was generally manageable (7:30-6) and now I am on my own doing essentially consulting/secondment with large companies.

      2. CTT*

        Yeah, city size is key. I’m going into a BigLaw firm, but in a smaller market. Having worked there prior to law school as well, I know I’ll be working hard, but not There Till 9 PM Plus Every Weekend hard. I know it’s different for the people at different branches in bigger markets.

      3. Another Lawyer*

        I agree that mid-sized firms can have a nice balance. The pay can be the same as or close to Big Law, but with a much better quality of life. If you see a firm with a lot of former Big Law associates who burned out but still wanted to practice in a firm setting, that can be a good sign. In that type of environment you’ll end up with smart people who also understand work/life balance.

        With that said, obviously each firm is different and you should do your research.

    4. CatCat*

      I work for the government. Work-life balance is awesome (especially after I stopped doing litigation). Pay is less than the private sector. Benefits are fantastic. Work is interesting. On the debt side, I am counting on PSLF.

      1. Joielle*

        Same here! Great work-life balance, and the great benefits help make up for the lower salary. I’m either going to qualify for PSLF if it still exists in 6 years, or pay on my loans for the rest of my life. I’ve made peace with that.

    5. Temperance*

      Large firms often have lower billable requirements than mid-sized or small firms, believe it or not. I wouldn’t ever want to work for a solo, but that’s just me. You’ll work a lot at a large firm, but it’s a myth that small firms are better for that. It’s also a myth that nonprofits are much better than firms, truthfully. You’re often doing more frustrating work for more difficult clients for very little pay.

      I’m the pro bono person at a large firm. I like it. I’m paid more than a nonprofit attorney is, and I don’t have to deal with the frustrating of that work, either.

      1. Iden Versio*

        Huh, interesting! I would not have thought of that. You always hear those rumors in law school that big firms work you to death, small firms are better, etc. But I definitely don’t want to do solo work.

    6. Guacamole Bob*

      Not a lawyer but married to one (and know lots of others), and I’d give some thought to what kind of law you want to do. It’s really difficult to promise totally consistent hours in a litigation job – less stuff goes to trial these days then used to, but the timelines are generally externally imposed and can be unforgiving. You may find a spot where you work a reasonable number of hours overall, but it’s much more likely to ebb and flow and come with some seriously busy times. Plus, I get the sense that are fewer in-house litigation jobs than other types of jobs, so you’re more likely to be at a firm for the long haul.

      (The exception to this that I’ve seen among my friends is being in a litigation job with the federal government.)

    7. Fiennes*

      A friend of mine went big law, got a super cheap apartment, and just worked her ass off for four years. At the end of it, she had amazing resume experience and absolutely zero debt. Then she took the in-house work she’d wanted all along and is very happy with her work/life balance.

      Yeah, those 4 years sucked, But she bought herself total freedom. It’s worth considering.

      1. Iden Versio*

        I’m leaning towards that route — I’m single with no children, so I can totally do the roommates/cheap apartment life. Paying off my debt fast is an incredibly attractive factor in favor of biglaw.

    8. Delta Delta*

      I did a lot of years in soul-sucking law jobs. Unfortunately, there are going to be long days and there are going to be weekends. That’s just how the practice goes. As you look for jobs, ask about balance and caseload and what typical days look like. You don’t want to look like you’re going to be a slacker, but you’re also going to show you’ve got things in your life other than work. If a firm suggests you don’t get a balance, don’t work there. Also, one suggestion – maybe a prosecutor job? Depending on where you are, you could end up with a manageable work week (obviously there are some long days sometimes – that’s how it goes). But there would also be government benefits and possibly loan repayment assistance.

  24. It's a German thing*

    My husband had a phone interview scheduled for earlier this week. When the hiring manager still hadn’t called 10 minutes after the scheduled time, my husband sent him an email asking if he was still able to talk (the hiring manager had never given out his phone number). He got an unexpected response–link in username.

    My husband wrote back to the hiring manager saying apologies for the miscommunication, thank you for his time, but he was no longer interested in interviewing. The hiring manager responded that it was “just a joke” and that’s why he put the smiley face, and then tried to connect with my husband on LinkedIn. My husband declined the connection.

    1. Jelly Bean*

      WTF? That’s super inappropriate and unprofessional. And I hate people who think saying “it was just a joke” make being a jerk okay.

      The message doesn’t even make sense to me.

      1. It's a German thing*

        Our guess is that the hiring manager thought my husband was going to call him (despite not giving out his phone number) and then when he got the email thought my husband was trying to get out of doing the interview. This guy would have been my husband’s boss, so bullet definitely dodged.

        1. Pollygrammer*

          So weird. The response is unhinged, and every phone interview I’ve ever had was that the interviewer called the interviewee. And why would he be at home?

          Was he maybe trying to jokingly put words in your husband’s mouth?

          1. JanetM*

            Countering data point — when my union does phone interviews, we have the committee and the candidate call into a free conference call service.

            1. zora*

              But in that case, the interviewer makes sure the candidate has the correct info to call. In this case, her husband had no phone info, so obviously he couldn’t be the one to start a call.

        2. Ciara Amberlie*

          I was so confused about what the hiring manager was even angry about, but that sort of makes sense.

          There is so much wrong here though. First, that the hiring manager made that mistake in the first place is a yellow flag (it’s minor, but annoying). But then he sent that message which is so unprofessional that I can’t even believe it happened! And then to top it off, he used the “it’s just a joke, bro” defence. Big nope!

          I’d be tempted to glassdoor this. Petty me would want to include the screenshot of the message, but that’s probably not the best idea.

    4. Not Maeby But Surely*

      That’s a weird comment from a hiring manager, even if “as a joke”. Bullet dodged, for sure.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I don’t even understand that response. Your husband obviously wasn’t canceling, he was trying to determine if the interview was still happening. WTAF. He is definitely right to decline further engagement.

    6. fposte*

      Wow. Thanks to the guy for being *unequivocally* unacceptable, at least.

      Was the interview at an odd time? I’m curious about that “rushing home” thing–I would have presumed the interviewer would be at his office.

      1. It's a German thing*

        The interview was at noon. My husband mentioned that this company is flexible with remote work, so maybe the hiring manager was working remotely that day and had gone to get lunch before the interview?

        1. Namast'ay in Bed*

          It doesn’t matter though, they had scheduled an appointment, you’re expected to keep it no matter your working situation. Even if they had a legitimate excuse, the correct response would have been “I’m so sorry to have missed our call, I can talk now if it works for you/we can reschedule/literally anything other than what that person responded with.”

        2. fposte*

          Yeah, that’s really not your husband’s problem in the first place, then; this wasn’t a special courtesy or anything.

          (Not that that’s the biggest issue here, but I was curious.)

    8. Environmental Compliance*

      What the actual f*ck.

      I’d definitely be forwarding on to HR, and probably also putting it on Glassdoor. What an incredibly inappropriate response!

    9. LilySparrow*

      Wow. That’s definitely going to screen for a certain type of personality.

      Kudos to your husband for not being that type!

  25. Queenie*

    I’m conflicted about some cacti.

    At my previous job, there was a thing where everyone on the team had at least one cactus on their desk. I looove plants and wanted to fit in, so I bought a few. They’re thriving on my desk at home now, but they remind me of that job, which turned out to be an absolutely miserable experience I want to forget about. They’re living things, so I haven’t been able to bring myself to throw them out and I can’t put them in my box of items to be donated (which includes a bunch of other stuff I bought for that job). I’ve asked a few friends and family if they wanted them to no avail. I have social anxiety so do not want the stress of reaching out to, and then bringing them to, a random organization.

    Has anyone else had trouble getting rid of something from an old job that had bad memories associated with it? Any suggestions on how to convince myself it’s okay to trash these cacti? I’m making an effort to “move on” from that job and “heal” and I don’t think I can with these cacti sitting in front of me every day.

    1. Jess R.*

      Do you have a compost bin, or is there one locally? You could compost the cacti to minimize the “it’s a living thing” guilt. In the end, it’s okay to let these things go, even if it means tossing out a couple of plants. If you’re looking for permission, by the power vested in me as a future chaplain and faithful AAM reader, I hereby grant you permission to throw them away and give yourself the space to heal.

      (Alternately, if you’re in northern California, I will take your cacti off your hands, I LOVE cacti.)

      1. Queenie*

        I don’t have a compost bin, but I do have a small area of my back yard where I bury any of my plants that die. :)

        Thanks for confirming it’s okay to let them go (and for granting me permission with the power vested in you to make it official!). When I was asking around if people wanted the cacti, and they asked why I would get rid of them (they all know I love plants), they tried to convince me it was silly to get rid of them, which was not helpful.

    2. memyselfandi*

      It is so hard to get rid of a plant. It is a living thing! Maybe plant them in the ground outside and let the frost take them, if that’s a possibility.

    3. Emily S.*

      Maybe you could give them away through the Craigslist free stuff listings.
      I’ve gotten rid of lots of unwanted stuff that way.

      1. AMPG*

        This! Or Freecycle, or Facebook Marketplace (listed as free). Then people can contact you instead of the other way around.

      2. Iris Eyes*

        +1 I’ve seen house plants for sale and free on Craigslist, Nextdoor, and Facebook Marketplace. I’m sure there is someone in your area who would love to have them. Also if you need a gift for someone with a new house or job or they would probably make lovely hostess gifts.

        1. Iris Eyes*

          Or if you have a local farmer’s market you could see if there is a live plant seller and see if they would be willing to take them off your hands.

    4. Ciara Amberlie*

      This is heavily dependent on where you live, but could you put them outside your house with a sign that says “free cacti”? Where I live they’d be gone in half an hour!

      1. Queenie*

        This is a good idea! I’ve done this before with furniture and large toys, and it always disappeared within a few hours. I could put the cacti on an overturned recycle bin at the curb and tape a sign to the recycle bin.

    5. Pollygrammer*

      You could plant them in the ground somewhere, and tell yourself that even if they won’t live long, they’ll at least die free?

      I actually have a plant that was given to me the first day of a really toxic job. I like to think that it’s the only good thing to come out of the place. It’s gotten way bigger and healthier now that it’s in a sunny window rather than a sad cube under fluorescent lights. I like to think that we both escaped an awful place and now both of us are thriving.

      1. Chie*

        I love your reframing there, and maybe that would work for the cacti too: thinking of them as fellow bad job escapees who are looking forward to a bright and sunny future, rather than reminders of the past… They thrive on warmth and sunshine after all!

      2. Delta Delta*

        I also have a plant from a toxic job. It was fine at that job. When the plant and I left, the plant grew like gangbusters and even sprouted some flowers.

      3. Queenie*

        Oh my gosh. A fellow escapee is such a wonderful way to think about your plant! I’m going to try spending a few moments thinking about the cacti like this every day for a week or two and see if it makes me feel better about keeping them.

        If it doesn’t work I can use Ciara Amberlie curbside suggestion as my plan B.

    6. AliceBD*

      If you use social media have you put out a call to your entire network? A friend of a friend (who I had met once at a party) did a post about planters a few months ago and said if no one responded in the next (time period of 24-48 hours) she would throw them away. I went and got them. Saved me probably a hundred dollars, I use all of them, and I’m so grateful she posted. I see friends do similar for plants all the time (never friends who live in my city, unfortunately).

    7. Madame X*

      Hello fellow scientist! I too left academia after nearly a decade in academic research. I had main reasons for leaving:
      1. After nearly a decade in academic research, I wanted a career change.
      2. I needed to earn a higher salary to improve my standard of living
      3. The academic job market is getting worse every year.

      Only about 16% of PhD graduates, move on to a tenure track position. Even if you WANTED to stay in academia the odds are not in your favor. It makes me wonder how old are the people you are talking to, because scientist in my range are aware of how dire academic research funding is and how difficult it is to find a tenure-track position. I haven’t received any push back for my career change when I talk to scientists who have stayed in academia.
      For some background, I completed a 2-year postdoc and recently started a position with large biotech firm. In my new role, my tasks mainly involve project management, client management, and study design. I don’t do any bench work, which I don’t miss it all. I had wonderful mentors throughout grad school and for my postdoc, and my research was decent, I was successful in earning some grants, and I got to learn some pretty cool concepts which I later published.However, i was ready to move in a different direction for my career. I knew about halfway through grad school that the academic life of a tenured professor was not for me.

    8. Spooky*

      Admittedly, I don’t know much about cacti, but could you just…plant them somewhere? I guess it depends on your climate, but if you’re in a warm zone, you could try that. Alternatively, I’d donate them to a hospital –I’ve heard they like plants to liven up things.

    9. Dino*

      Is there any way you could propagate the cacti from a cutting and trash the originals? That way you can have new cacti friends who are a fresh start that came out of the badness, but not the originals from that time period. Plus propagating isn’t a sure thing and it might not work out for all of them, meaning maybe you can bond with the survivors as fellow “we went through the fire together and made it out” buds. (I may or may not attach way too much significance to plants.)

      I also support trashing or composting them if you don’t want to even deal with that! Don’t feel guilty if the best option is to totally move on. That’s a fine thing to do!

      1. Queenie*

        That’s a cool idea. I have a few plants that create “babies” and always just planted them so I could have more plants and most have done well. I haven’t grown anything from a cutting before but I’ll look into it!

    10. Tuxedo Cat*

      Would it be too much to make a Craigslist ad and offer them for free? You could sit them outside and say something like “Free to a good home- out now!” People pick up all sorts of random stuff off of Craigslist.

    11. Alli525*

      In my (very large) city, there are several swap meets that are specifically designated for plants. Maybe your local plant nursery would know if your city has any… and at any rate the nursery might know of some other connection or way for you to give away your cacti.

      1. Queenie*

        I have never heard of swap meets for plants. It sounds fun. I could probably grow some baby plants to swap. I’ll have to look that up!

    12. Chaordic One*

      At the previous apartment complex where I lived it was common for people to leave things like “free plants” and “free cleaning supplies” on a table in the laundry room. If no one came to pick them up, then they went in the trash after a couple of days.

      Also, at a former workplace, it was common for the receptionist to take plants and find new homes for them, either in the office or for people to take home.

    14. whistle*

      Can you ask a friend to take them and make it clear to the friend that they are able to just throw them away? I have a friend who hates to thin her garden because it means pulling living plants, even though logically she understands that this necessary to keep the other plants living. She asks me to thin for her. I get a kick out of pulling things out of the ground by the roots (very satisfying when appropriate), so it’s win/win for both of us!

      Similarly, I’ve been know to pull out rows of knitting for friends when they just can’t bear to do it themselves :)

      I also like the suggestions above to just plant them somewhere. They’ll live or they won’t, but at least you’re not the one throwing them away.

      1. Queenie*

        That’s a sweet idea! Doing the painful thing that needs to be done–you’re a good friend. :)

    15. msroboto*

      Give them to me. I’ll kill them. They will not be killed purposefully. I will “care” for them. No plant has ever survived my “care”. I expect they will not last more than a few months.

      1. Queenie*

        LOL! You remind me of a lot of my friends. :)

        I have a ton of plants, but I’ve killed A LOT of them over the years. Takes a lot of deaths to find which plants can survive your individual environment and care.

    17. Rahera*

      Hey, just a thought. A), throw them out if it’s more cathartic for you, and b) is there a school anywhere you could offer them to? Children love cacti and they’d be great low-care plants for a teacher. They’d be very popular with the kids on a windowsill somewhere.

  26. Ms. Gullible*

    Seriously, who has their parents or spouses call in for them? This morning I had two staff do call in this way. One person was young while the other is closing in on 40. Why do people think this is acceptable? It does not make me believe the bizarre scenario anymore when you have someone else call in for you. On your phone. While you are sitting right next to them. *shakes head*

    1. AliceBD*

      Are they in the hospital and unable to be coherent (can think of several reasons) or do they have laryngitis? I can’t think of any other reason why I would have someone call in for me.

      2. designbot*

        Yep, the one time my husband has called in for me, I was in the emergency room. And even then I just made him do it because I already should’ve been at work hours ago and there was no cell reception in the ER so he had to step outside to make the call, otherwise I probably still would’ve called myself.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      I had my roommate call in for me once when I had horrible laryngitis, but with texting so prevalent it makes no sense these days.

    3. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      My husband had to do it for me once, but I’m pretty sure my boss would have had a hard time hearing me with my head hanging over a toilet bowl. This and what AliceBD said are the only reasons I could think of.

    4. ThatGirl*

      I’ve called in for my husband once, when he had a bad stomach bug and was so busy throwing up he couldn’t talk. But that seems like an exception, and I’d never ever let a parent call in for me. Plus that was before texting was really common.

    5. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      Ditto the “spouse has head in toilet bowl/has taken strong enough migraine medication that they’re unconscious/actually in hospital” reasons here. And it’s against policy to text your boss at our company (that’s even if we have boss’s mobile number – not all bosses have a company mobile, and they certainly aren’t going to give personal numbers out!). If it’s not a phone call, it’s assumed you are taking unpaid, unofficial leave.
      Not sure I would ever have accepted parental interference, but spousal is surely more acceptable?

      1. Rosemary7391*

        Why not parents or anyone else they live with/have handy? Isn’t the important point that they can’t call rather than who does instead?

        I’m now wondering how I’d deal with such a situation myself, given that I live alone. I guess my boss would have to cope until I was able to communicate somehow. Fortunately I’m pretty healthy normally!

    6. starsaphire*

      I always email in, so I haven’t “called” in sick in years.

      But yeah. Laryngitis, unconscious in hospital, or mid-emergency medical procedure are the only ones I can think of.

    7. Thursday Next*

      Yeah, there could be a bunch of reasons why someone would be unable to speak. I once had a surprise biopsy at a routine dental appointment, and the local anesthesia left my tongue completely numb…not very useful for teaching a seminar course immediately afterward!

      Hopefully anyone in an unable-to-speak situation would call in themselves as soon as they were able.

    8. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I don’t get it… I was attacked by a dog earlier this year and still managed to text my boss and my team on the way to the hospital.

      Maybe a spouse text or call in the case of a birth, I see that as sort of normal if the wife goes into active labor/hospital and has her hands full at the morning call time, in addition to the other normal reasons (lack of voice, unconscious, etc).

      1. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

        In my case, the stomach virus I contracted was so violent, that I literally had to stay perfectly still with my head in the toilet bowl. If I looked away or moved for even a second, It was an instant and violent eruption. I couldn’t even focus my eyes to even be able to text. I thought later, 4.5 HOURS of the unpleasantness, that thank God my husband was home because my boss would have been very worried not hearing from me.

      2. designbot*

        In the one case where I’ve done this, I was in the ER, puking, on very intense drugs, and there was no cell reception in the ER. Obviously *I* wasn’t going to step outside to make the call, so I made my husband do so.

      3. Mallory*

        Heh, about 3 weeks ago I went into labor unexpectedly early (a week early, but my other 2 has been almost a full 2 weeks late- so this was 3 weeks earlier than i’d expected!). I texted my business partner at 6am- “heading to the hosptial, possibly to have a baby.” At 10am “have been admitted, definately having a baby today. Clear my calendar/please cover my afternoon client calls.” At noon, “baby is imminent and husband passed out and am waiting for him to get back from the ER.” And finally, at 1:30, I texted a photo of me and husband holding baby saying “he made it back with 30 minutes to spare.”

    9. A username for this site*

      I’ve had this happen a good number of times because I work with younger people:
      -Wife called in because husband was in the ER with a severe concussion
      -Girlfriend called in because boyfriend had norovirus and couldn’t call in himself
      -Mom texted me from daughter’s phone because she was in the ER with a severe allergic reaction

      I’m sure there’s more. I’ve never minded, because all I care about is that a) I have enough notice to plan for their absence and b) they were responsible enough to make sure we were notified that they could not come to work even though they were seriously ill.

      It seems like an odd thing to nitpick over, unless there’s other things going on.

    10. CBE*

      I did it for my daughter once, but I used her phone and it was because I was in the ER with her and she was getting EKG leads put on (to see what was wrong with her heart that made her collapse in the elevator of her building on the way to work) when she realized she had no show/no call into work. She panicked and I just said “I’ll grab your phone and take care of it. Just keep breathing slow like the nurse said.” She was 26-ish I think at the time.

    11. Lia*

      I did for my ex when he was hospitalized and not allowed to make calls. Other than that, or the car accident type scenario, I’d not do it and I would side-eye anyone who did.

    12. DaniCalifornia*

      The only time my spouse has ever called my supervisor and our owner (and I’m 33) was while I was in the hospital dying. Literally having organ failure. I could technically talk but the pain was so excruciating the only words coming out were curse words through tears so they were understanding.

      Other than that (or throwing up so bad you can’t leave) I’d say I’d be shaking my head too!

    13. The Expendable Redshirt*

      Today, the spouse of a director called in sick on her behalf. The directer was in the hospital with a spinal cord injury and couldn’t move.

      So yeah. Unless an employee is unable to speak or use their hands, calling in for your spouse is unprofessional. (Our director is expected to recover well.)

    14. Paquita*

      I had to call in for my husband before. He was in the hospital/ER. He worked retail and most of the people knew he had health issues. He actually had a heart attack AT WORK so they had to call ME.

    15. SavannahMiranda*

      When I was Very Pregnant and Very Sick, my partner offered to call in to work for me several times.

      I kept telling him no. No, it is my relationship with my employer. It is my job. And it would be weirdly co-dependent and enabling and…I don’t know what…for him to call in for me. (Thank you, Allison!)

      Like, how does it make it more legitimate for you to be doing it for me? Unless I’m in a coma or truly incapacitated, it actually makes it less legit for them to hear from you and not from me.

      We’re not triangulating my job, honey. My job and me are in a two-point relationship here, not a three-point relationship. You are not a co-equal to me in my employer’s eyes.

      He never seemed to get it and kept offering.

  27. Anon today*

    OK everyone, what would you do:

    You’re say, a level 1 something-or-other, in an industry where you need a BA and experience to do this job, and the market is beyond tight.

    Your boss leaves, so you get a new boss – let’s say the boss job is a level 3, and your new boss was a level 2 for almost a decade.

    Company new boss came from is a direct competitor in a tight-knit industry. New boss’ old level 2 job was just posted this week, and you’re qualified.

    Apply for the level 2 job?

    FWIW new boss and current company are all nice, good place to work, I’m just itching to be a level 2 and there’s no path for me here for at least a year. I’ve done level 1 work for over 5 years.

    4. Anon today*

      Thanks all! You are saying what my husband said too.

      Related concern: Other Company has quite a few recent expats over in Current Company, and they do sometimes get together and commiserate on how terrible the work-life balance is at Other Company. I’m a mom of two small kids, one of whom I pump for, so long hours and facetime nonsense are just Not For Me these days. I wonder if I’d be wasting my time trying for this new role when I may be a bad fit because of that, and also if it ever got back to my current company that I’m going for it, that could be bad for me. Husband thinks I can magically figure out if this is the case in the interview but I’m not so sure.

      1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

        This is hard – I have personally chosen to pick a less stressful job/career path because of children. I am currently a level 2, I would love to be a level 3 but I would have to switch companies/give up my work-life-balance at least in the short term while I “learn” a new company.

        Is the pay bump enough to justify the extra stress? Are you the primary bread winner or is hubby? Will hubby pick up the slack if your career has to be #1 for a while?

      2. J.B.*

        Hmm…in that case I’d apply and interview. In the case of a job offer, tell them what you will be willing to do and find out what they say. Sometimes you can get away with very clear boundaries and they be respected. Probably also run specifics past those working in your company. Ask them if you can believe if the potential boss said (s)he really wouldn’t judge you.

        It’s also ok to stay where you are right now. I found that by the time my younger child turned 3 I could spend more time focusing on school.

      3. RightsaidFed*

        Are you trying to convince yourself to not apply?

        You haven’t even applied, yet you are coming up with all these reasons why it might not work out – but these reasons are all theoretical!

        Stop borrowing trouble.

        Apply, see if you get an interview, go on interview, see if it is a good fit AND THEN make your decision.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      Oh yeah, definitely. 5 years? totally.

      And if you don’t get it, ask what the path is for you to get it next time.

  28. Let Me Tell You About My Cats*

    Is there any use in being honest in an exit interview where your supervisor already knows and acknowledges the problems that you would talk about? Like, they know there’s a super toxic employee that is driving everyone away, but they don’t want to go through the trouble of firing them. Is there a use in creating an official record?

    1. AMPG*

      Is the exit interview with your supervisor, or someone else – HR or grandboss? If it’s someone else, it might be worth it to be honest, since conflict-avoidant supervisors are often good at hiding problems from those above them in the chain.

      1. Let Me Tell You About My Cats*

        It’s an online form. I think it goes straight to HR & they share feedback with the supervisor.

        1. SavannahMiranda*

          I was baldly honest once in the online post-post-exit interview about having been driven out. Like yours it was a survey with the opportunity to type in short answers.

          My phrasings were unfailingly professional, and I strove the be absolutely clear about who was involved, who wasn’t, and those who knew nothing and were blameless. I also didn’t name call or overtly say “Jack Doe did XYZ.” But I pulled no punches. (If you can imagine all of that care with phrasing while pulling no punches.)

          I also offered positive comments. Including about the person who drove me out. I didn’t want to risk my exit survey coming off as embittered and imbalanced. And there were actually great aspects of the job. I learned a tremendous amount and I wouldn’t have gotten where I did in my career without it. So I was honest about that too.

          Basically, I tried to imagine the person who drove me out having access to my survey answers and reading all of them. Along with their boss. What fair, balanced, but bald things would I want put in front of them in black and white. And so that’s the way I wrote it. I wrote it as if my accuser would read it, even though I know they would never see it. I think that kept it honest.

          Three months after I left, the person who drove me out was called into a meeting, his badge was taken, and he was escorted out of the building and trespassed. They collected his things in a box and delivered them to his home. Including his jacket that he had over his desk chair. They were that severe about it.

          I don’t know if my survey answers had anything to do with that. Probably not. The issues were much larger than me and my little job. But if my answers played a part, I’m glad. And I’m glad I worked so hard to be completely fair in the way I wrote them.

          Regardless, it was incredibly satisfying to be boldly honest. Finally. To someone. Even if it was just an impersonal online interface. Which is probably why employers do these online Q&As to be honest. They probably get answers they don’t get face to face.

    3. junipergreen*

      Oops, my comment didn’t nest, and is down below. Reposting here:

      I don’t think it would hurt to mention the issues so long as you did so in a way that was calm and constructive (so as not to burn any reference-giving bridges!). Theoretically your exit interview will be recorded by the organization and potentially reviewed by higher-ups, so you’d be helping build the case some day for whichever honorable soul finally endeavors to fire the problematic employee. (At the very least adding your voice to the record lends more credence to a financial case that it’s more expensive to lose good employees than to keep the toxic ones.)

      Btw, love the username.

    4. Lia*

      Yes. You don’t know how many others may have already complained, and if they’ve decided “one more complaint and Toxic CoWorker is GONE”.

      At a former job, I went on record stating that two people were responsible for my departure, and ultimately, due to my complaint and those of others, those people did depart.

    5. Windchime*

      Probably not, in my experience. I was bullied out of a job by a toxic manager, and she had bullied out 3 others before me (and tried with a couple others). We all complained about her to the Director; he didn’t care. He thought she was awesome and he supported her. HR didn’t care until a different Director got involved and it looked like there could be a possible lawsuit; then all the sudden, they cared and the bully supervisor was fired.

      So my (limited) experience has been that, if your supervisor already knows and won’t do anything about it, it’s useless to complain.

    6. OhBehave*

      This is a ridiculous way to deal with toxic employee. They don’t want to go to the trouble to fire them but love having to hire replacements for those TE has driven away? Of course! That’s no trouble at all! The gutlessness of some managers is astounding. I would absolutely be honest in the exit interview. At least you have added to the list. Also leave a Glassdoor review too, saying a toxic employee is driving people away in xyz dept.

  29. AliceBD*

    I was put on a PIP this week. It came totally out of the blue for me. I think my boss (who is a very nice person but who I have never thought was a good manager) did not adequately share the feedback about me from the next level up — I had heard some of the feedback before but entirely in passing, and much of it months ago. I fully agree with some of the feedback but don’t feel like any of it was appropriately shared to the level of seriousness it needed to be prior to the PIP. I am now also being offered external support on things I never had before (use the agency’s graphic designers if you need to! I’ll give you their contact info! When I have never claimed to have any graphic design experience, brought up a million times that I didn’t know what I was doing and it would be nice to have some support, AND had all graphics I created previously (none of which I was happy with because I know I am not a graphic designer) approved by my boss). I have gotten clarification on how everything will be evaluated and timelines for when things need to start being done by; I have two months before the final decision.

    I am obviously going to work hard on these things (now that I know they are issues! When again I did not have any idea for most of the things presented). Because my boss is not good at actually communicating negative feedback to me I feel like I will not have an accurate idea of it I will be able to be successful with it; right now I feel like it is 50-50 whether or not I will successfully get off it.

    I’m going to reread the archives posts about PIPs and being fired again on Sunday. (Have a funeral to go to for a family friend tomorrow as my parents are out of the country.) My goal is to have my resume ready to go by Monday and start applying to other jobs next week.

    I started at this job in August 2017 so the PIP will end after 13 months here. It is an entirely new industry for me, but my previous industry was rather specialized and there are no companies in that industry around here. (I liked my previous job OK but I had outgrown it, and I wanted to move to this city to be near family rather than hours away.) Also within my first two months at this job my department was changed, my boss was changed due to the department change, and my workload was doubled (with no compensation); I’m not sure I would have been hired if everything was set up this way when I started. My company is also merging with another one right around when the PIP ends.

    A few questions for y’all:
    1. Ways to hold this space where I want this job to succeed (overall nice people, great work-life balance, well-known employer in the area, adequately paid, very good benefits) but also need to be preparing for leaving?
    2. My last job search took 10 months, but I was trying to move 300 miles away. I said I was relocating for family reasons and would pay all my moving expenses in my cover letters. Do you think being closer will help shorten my job search? I am confident in my material and my interview skills as I had a ton of phone interviews and multiple in person interviews at different companies; I was one of the finalists multiple times before I took this job.
    3. I sort-of have an answer for job searching while I am still employed (even though the timeline is bad) but any hints for reason for leaving to give to jobs if I am fired? How to frame it? Links to AAM posts are fine. Nothing on the PIP has to do with attitude, hours I work, insubordination, etc — it’s things like giving them calendars of my content plans ahead of time because upper management wants to see it (completely and totally fair), earlier scheduling of big campaigns (it would help if people gave me the info on the campaigns sooner — I’ve been asking but I don’t get it; now I have learned I have to nag people), prepping the people doing Facebook Lives better (I disagree with this; I can’t do anything on a Live video if the senior person doing the video gets excited and leans forward and starts talking fast and they ignore that I stressed beforehand not to do that and my signals during it to slow down and sit up; there also has not been a video since they complained about the background being too plain and got me a banner to put in the background).
    4. I’m thinking of reaching out to a former coworker who I feel may have been on a PIP and resigned before he was fired earlier this year; he’s a super nice guy who I am pretty sure would be willing to talk and let me know how the process went. Good idea or not?

    Sorry if you ask questions and I can’t answer them — I wrote this ahead of time to paste into the comments during a bathroom break and I can’t be on my phone much. I am also aware that I seem rather defensive; I think I would be more understanding if I had known that these things were issues.

    1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      re:3 (reasons for leaving), could you frame it in the context of the changes to your job after two months? Given that you’ve been there (or will have have been there 13 months ish) you might have to stretch it slightly (others will no doubt berate me for the lack of honesty), but combined with the soon to be merger, could it be along the lines of “my job description changed, and is likely to change again aand is no longer what I feel confident continuing

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Sorry to hear about all that!

      I think it will be easier to find jobs now that you’re local. If the rest of your work history hasn’t included tons of short stints, or if one year isn’t a short time in your industry, I think you’d be perfectly reasonable to apply to other jobs with the explanation that shortly after you started, your job changed drastically and you were moved to a different department, and while you’ve given it a year it just isn’t for you so you’re looking to move back into the work you were originally hired to do, which isn’t available at your current company.

      Good luck with everything!

    3. Jessi*

      Yes I would start applying!

      I think I would frame it as ‘The job description changed after I had started taking me away from X which I really enjoy (whatever it is that is in new job’s description) and the company is merging so the job may change again.

    4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Are there regular feedback meetings during the PIP duration? There should be, if not insist on them at least weekly. Ask for your performance during this time to be documented in the PIP and reviewed in the meetings.

      This will tell you straight away if this is a ‘we want you to improve and be successful’ PIP or a ‘this is a documentation step but we’ve made up our minds’ PIP. You will also be able to easily gauge where you stand during the next few months.

    5. Cat Herder*

      I don’t have any advice — just words of encouragement! I hope it gets better for you.

  30. gbca*

    Any suggestions as to how to stay on top of tasks when you have a million little (and big) things to manage? I’m not looking for a tool, specifically – I’ve heard of them all from fancy apps to pen and paper. But fundamentally, they all require you to be diligent about entering/writing down items. And that’s where I’m really struggling. I am not naturally super organized, and I get to-dos different ways – email, meeting follow-ups, casual hallway conversations. I just have such a hard time sticking to a system, and am really worried that I’m going to drop something important one of these days.

    1. SoSo*

      My job is very similar, but thankfully I’m a fairly organized/type-A person. Honestly, aside from the tips you’ve already gotten, the only thing I can think of would be to get yourself into the habit of tallying whatever the task is AS SOON as you get it. It’s got to become a habit. That makes it a lot harder to forget. I’ve got several different to do lists, honestly- every email with something that needs followed up on gets flagged to go into my outlook task manager. Getting an assignment in a meeting? I write it down in my notes. Someone stops by my desk, and I grab a post it note to stick on my screen. It’s three different systems but all the same concept. As long as I write it down or take note of it ASAP, the system works pretty well.

      1. AMPG*

        This. I have a to-do list app and EVERYTHING that requires follow-up goes in that app, even if it’s written down somewhere else. I’ve also gotten in the habit of reviewing my meeting notes immediately after each meeting to be sure I haven’t missed any action items.

      2. Iris Eyes*

        Agreed, record it immediately as soon as you think of/ know about it.

        Remember a short pencil is better than a long memory.

      3. samiratou*

        I have a very similar problem, and I’m starting to get better about this and this is super important for me:

        “get yourself into the habit of tallying whatever the task is AS SOON as you get it.”

        I’m finding that Todoist allows me to do this the best–I can add tasks from my phone or computer and clean them up later.

        And then I find it helps to keep track of where I’m at on tasks by throwing comments in. The paid version is required for that, but it’s been WEP for me. I can jot notes, link to tickets, send emails to specific tasks, etc. I’m not sure if other tools do this, but I’ve found I need an easy, central place to manage tasks because I can’t keep track of some things in a task list in Outlook, some things in tickets, some things jotted down on paper, etc.

    2. Libervermis*

      Would it be helpful to create a narrative of what you have to do? So rather than a bunch of individual to-do items you know you’re working towards Event, which will require Things 1-5, which themselves require Things 6-10, etc. Definitely not a foolproof system, but I find that it’s much easier for me to remember a chain or network of things than a bunch of discrete things.

      And I echo the suggestion to build up the habit of noting everything down in whatever form works best for you. It may never come naturally but hopefully with practice it will come habitually.

    3. foolofgrace*

      I second the Post-It suggestion but my advice is to scribble even just a couple of words onto a Post-It and stick it either on your computer (could get very fluttery there) or stick it in a notebook. Even just one of those plain black-and-white blank notebooks. You’d have all your tasks in one place and it would be harder to forget any. Again, you don’t have to write down the whole task, just a couple of words (like they recommend using this method to remember dreams).

    4. melting*

      I carry a pen and notebook with me EVERYWHERE at work; it’s small enough that’s it’s not difficult to hold in the same hand as my laptop, or even slip into the pockets of a cardigan. I keep the pen in the book itself, holding my place, so that it is just that much easier to open and write in on the fly.

      I’m not shy of whipping it out and writing as people are giving me tasks, either. Even the walk back to my desk is long enough for details to fall out of my brain.

    5. JessicaTate*

      You’ve hit the nail on the head that the essential thing is being diligent about writing it down. It takes discipline. BUT my suggestion would be to go with whatever has the fewest steps in your work-life. I’ve found that a paper “to do” list that sits on my desk is perfect, because all it requires when something comes up is scrawling it down (ideally near a related section of tasks). If I had to open outlook or project management software or whatever, it would be another step, and I wouldn’t capture half of what I should. The piece of paper floats around my desk area, but it’s always within arm’s reach and often eye view to nudge my memory – and give me the peace of mind that I don’t have to remember everything right now. It’s there, waiting for me.

      Longer version: I actually keep the “master” To Do list in a Word doc, organized by Project Name, with tasks listed using giant squares as bullets (the satisfaction of checking things off with gusto). Each Monday, I delete the done tasks, add new / scrawled tasks, and print the hard copy for ongoing scrawling throughout the week. The Word doc helps me quickly have a “fresh” list every week, so that I’m not searching through pages of completed tasks. The print-out gives me the scrawling capability I need. (Yes, outlook and project management software could do this automatically, but because they are “another step”, they don’t work for me as well as 10 minutes on Monday morning.)

        2. JessicaTate*

          Good point. I have done something similar to that, but your approach is possibly a more efficient way than I’d done! For the OP, I was thinking that might be too advanced. I keep thinking OP needs to just focus on finding that first easiest step of whatever will get them to write it down. :-)

    6. Sophia Brooks*

      Maybe I can help? I am not diligent about any one system because I get bored easily. I manage a lot of big and small tasks with lost of interruptions. What helps me is to keep changing systems. So I can be diligent for a while because it is new and then I look for something else.

      I also sometimes use physical things as a reminder. Like, instead of the list I might have a pile that is a printed off email with a task, a note about something that needs to be done, a folder of a student I need to reach out to and I just keep going through the pile.

      Every month or so I just go through the whole mess and make sure I am not missing anything.

    7. HR for today*

      I have ADHD and this kind of thing is a big problem for me. I did learn, over the course of several years, to be more organized and to write down my to-dos before I forget them. Also, having an assistant helps. Also, I got promoted over the years and am now in a job where I don’t have to keep track of so many things. I encourage you to think of other jobs where you don’t have to keep track of so many details.

      If you are in a service-type job like HR, accounting, or IT, and you have a hallway conversation about something that needs to be done, ask the person to email it to you (or submit a ticket, if there’s a ticket system). Just keep repeating it, over and over again, and (most of) your colleagues will eventually get it. (Also helpful if your other colleagues in the same department do the same — e.g. if all IT folks insist that requests come through the ticket system.)

      1. Alice*

        I understand the point of ticketing systems but every time I have to fill in the long form with ultra-specific options that are somehow not comprehensive, it feels like IT is saying, “hello internal client, you’re in OUR world now, bwahaha!” Boo, poorly designed ticketing systems with poor UX.

    8. Cat Herder*

      in addition to the very good suggestions everyone else has made: pay attention to the steps, resources, and collaboration needed for the various tasks and, whatever system/s you use to keep track, put those in it too. Set deadlines for every task. None of this comes naturally to me, and in fact I really chafe at doing this sort of thing and always have. And yet I am known for my reliability with it – I just have to work at it conscientiously and *consciously* every day. You can do it!
      Also, if you DO mess up, fess up right away and explain what you are doing to rectify the error. BTDT. As long as you are not messing up a lot, everyone will appreciate your honesty.

    9. Gumby*

      If you have a hard time sticking to a system, it could be because you haven’t found the right system for you yet. Just because you aren’t naturally super-organized doesn’t mean it’s a skill you can’t hone in a way that fits your needs. I’m a fan of a slightly-modified-for-my-needs GTD type of system. So maybe try a couple of different options. Give them legitimate attempts where you put in real effort for more than a day or week. Sometimes the things you think you can’t do (be diligent about writing things down for example) can become second nature with practice.

      The other thing that you might find helpful is the “if it will take less than 3 (or 5 or whatever) minutes, do it right away” approach.

    10. SavannahMiranda*

      Your system of entering items sounds like it may be too cumbersome. If it’s too cumbersome *for you*, then it’s too cumbersome.

      I had a job once that was so absolutely hectic that the best I could do was a small spiral notebook of scratch paper on which I wrote ONE WORD items throughout the day. While typing an email, answering the phone, and someone standing over me with a question while another person stood in the doorway literally all at the same time, I would also have to note down all the to-do items that came out of this assault of constant input.

      After 20 minutes my spiral pad would look something like this (in addition to all the other to-dos it already contained going back pages and pages):
      “Brad”
      “Book 2”
      “SenK”
      “Legion”
      “Thursday”
      “Muffler”
      “Jerry”
      “VM”

      I knew these things meant I needed to talk to Brad in Legislative Scheduling about when my senator’s bill would come up in committee, I needed to remind my other senator to read the book summary I had prepared of the book her constituent had written before her meeting with him at 2:00, I needed to get an appointment for the first senator with Senator K before committee vote on his other bill on Tuesday, I needed to call the American Legion Hall in the district to find out their availability for a constituent Town Hall Meeting the following month, I needed to schedule muffler repair on my senator’s car, I needed to talk to Jerry the Intern Supervisor about our college intern, and I needed to change my senator’s outgoing voice mail.

      If I had the time to calmly write all of those things down in full sentences, with action steps, and priority flags. With markers next to them denoting whether they were delegated, moved forward, complete, or dropped. Or any of the other methods and organizational tricks available. I would have gotten eff all absolutely nothing done. And I would have dropped all the balls.

      All that is required is that you have a capture system. And your capture system only has to work *for you.* No one else has to understand it. You’re not passing any tests or quizzes. You’re not turning it in for homework. You just have to capture the input that’s coming at you somehow, someway, no matter how scritchy-scratchy, or how impossible-looking. The small spiral notebook worked for me because it was tiny, I could grab it and run down the hall, business cards fit inside it, I could throw it in my purse without feeling like “Ugh, do I have to bring it” and it was unobtrusive (I could take notes without it looking like I was Taking Notes). It was like a reporter’s notebook basically. That’s essentially what it was, a reporters notebook. Unobtrusive, lightweight, and cryptic.

      Somehow I got more done in a daily basis in that job than I’ve gotten done in any job since, no matter the complex project management protocols, or goal setting and objectives software, or bullet journaling techniques I’ve encountered since them.

      Get a capture system. Make it as simple and fail proof as possible. Write things it it only you have to interpret. Use it. If what you’ve been doing is too cumbersome for you, then it’s too cumbersome.

  31. Michelle*

    Does anyone have any experience with the Paycom system? Our company has decided to use it and it’s not working very well. 99% of the staff have issues with it. From installing the app,getting the program to work, password issues and complicating to use.

    If you do have experience or have used it, does it get any easier? Payroll issues that used to take 3 minutes to correct now require 3 log-ins (employee/supervisor approval/payroll supervisor approval) and 30 minutes to correct. From what I have experienced so far, it’s much more complicated for the staff (especially the part-time staff) and overall a pain.

  32. KHB*

    As promised yesterday, I’m here to talk more about my career as a science writer and answer any questions folks might have.

    As I said, my particular job is writing for the flagship magazine of a nonprofit society. My day-to-day work involves seeking out the most important and interesting research in my field, and then writing about it at a level that the broader community can understand (and ideally, would be interested in reading for fun).

    I have a PhD in my scientific field but no formal training in journalism or writing. Most of my colleagues come from similar backgrounds. But different writing jobs require different things.

    It’s a wonderfully interesting job, in that I get to delve into a different area of cutting-edge science with each publication cycle. But doing it well is also hard, and as a result, there’s a lot of science writing out there that’s pretty terrible, and many employers are willing to pay well for writing that is not terrible. If you have a good mind for scientific concepts and can put a sentence together, I encourage you to look into writing as a career. You’d be making the world a better place.

    I’m happy to take questions.

    1. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      Yay! I’m glad you popped in today; I was really interested in your experience when you mentioned your job yesterday.
      Did you have trouble moving from PhD-style science writing into a more journalistic style of writing? Do you ever have trouble ‘translating’ the more complex concepts or topics into plain-language? I imagine that the more you write, the easier it gets.

      Thank you for Sharing!

      1. KHB*

        Yes, actually, to both your questions, and a lot of us continue to struggle with both of those things. I think that a lot of scientists are subtly trained to obfuscate as much as possible: Nobody will challenge you on the details of your paper if they can’t understand what you’re talking about or stay awake long enough to read the whole thing. In magazine writing, sometimes the jargon and complex sentence structures and ten-dollar words are still necessary to convey an idea accurately. But very often, they’re not.

    2. fposte*

      Cool! I was thinking of this with the OP thinking about moving into grantwriting, too–that making complicated concepts legible is a really valuable skill.

      Do the writers work remotely or is there an office component? Is there ever travel involved or is your experience of the research mostly virtual/narrative? Is there a challenge involved in getting scientists to speak quotably about the work, so that you end up resorting to paraphrase at times, or are they pretty good interview sources?

      1. KHB*

        Most of us are based in an office, which I really like a lot: It’s so nice to be able to walk across the hall and knock on someone’s door if you need to bounce an idea off them really quickly.

        Travel is mostly going to research conferences. There are occasional lab visits in the mix, but they’re not tied to specific stories. There’s just not enough time between deciding to write a story and needing to get it written for us to hop on a plane and head somewhere. That does make it a challenge, sometimes, to get nice-looking images to publish: Since we can’t go to the lab and take our own photos, we have to rely on what the scientists send us. Sometimes that works well, and sometimes it doesn’t.

        In my opinion, quotes are overrated. I’m lucky, though, in that the publication I write for is already perceived as a trustworthy brand, so there’s no need to pepper every story with a ton of quotes by Dr. Genius Einstein to convince readers that what we’re writing about is actually important. Sometimes people speak quotably, and we quote them. But sometimes they don’t, and that’s fine too.

        1. LRC*

          I’m gonna disagree with KHB a little on the quotes. They’re often my favourite part of science stories, and my outlet has quotes in every article. It can be hard to get scientists to speak quotably, especially about topics that are really complex and/or mathematical, but I’ve found the key is to just be really friendly and chatty so that they sink into the conversation and stop thinking about the fact that it’s actually an interview. Worse comes to worse I’ll occasionally specifically ask for a fun quotable sentence.

          1. KHB*

            Yeah, there are definitely differences of opinion on this. Quotes are great when you have good ones that work well with your story. But it’s definitely possible to write a good story without any quotes at all, and trying to force quotes into a story where they don’t belong can actually be a negative, because it interrupts the flow of your own writing.

            Once upon a time (way before my time) we had a writer who would load up each story with tons of quotes. She did it, or so they say, because she didn’t actually know what she was talking about, so she leaned heavily on the scientists to explain everything in their own words and just hoped that the resultant hodgepodge would at least make some sense to readers. I see a lot of writing out there that I suspect takes the same approach.

            1. LRC*

              Ooh yes true – scientists explaining themselves in quotes rarely works. I like a good analogy in a quote, or a reaction. Something to give the story a bit of personality while also proving to the audience that people were interviewed and journalism was done about the impact of the research, rather than just “I read a paper and am explaining it to you”.

            2. TL -*

              I’m doing a masters in science communication right now and one of our guest lecturers (who does a radio show/podcast) was talking rather judgmentally about how RadioLab likes to summarize and ‘speak for the scientists’ and she likes to ‘let her scientists speak for themselves’.

              Her show does relatively well – it’s only in NZ and focuses mostly on environmental stuff – but I do video editing with cancer biologists/bioengineers and suffice it to say we have very different ideas on who should be doing the majority of the talking.

    3. Hope*

      That sounds like an interesting job that I’d actually be good at, but I have no idea how to find science writing jobs. Do the magazines themselves usually post ads on their sites, or is there a specific place where science writers go looking for positions? Or some other avenue I’m not thinking of?

      1. H.C.*

        It depends on the magazines – some may rely more on freelancers, others would have more permanent staff writers (you can get an idea by comparing bylines to the staff listed on their masthead or site).

        Other places that use science writers heavily: universities & research institutions, science-focused nonprofits & thinktanks, government agencies, public institutions (zoos, aquariums, planetariums). Note that their job postings may not be “science writer” per se, since they may merge those duties with other marketing/communication functions.

        You can also check out the National Association of Science Writers’ site at https://www.nasw.org for more job resources.

      2. KHB*

        I found my position by combing through the websites of all the organizations I could think of that I might want to work for and looking at their job listings. There may be better ways to do it, but that’s what I did. I can tell you that every position we’ve hired for in the 10+ years I’ve been here has been advertised externally.

      3. LRC*

        Also, there are science writers’ groups online, including ones for various specific fields and just for women, where people post jobs. I’ve gotten every science writing gig I’ve had, whether freelance or FT, via networking on social media with other women science writers.

    4. Ali G*

      How did you make the transition? I’ve done a lot of technical writing (in my field), and also a lot of translating that techie info in words for broader audiences. I would love to do that full time!

      1. KHB*

        I saw the job advertised, I applied for it, and I got it. (I’m not sure if this is what you’re asking?) There was an element of right-place-right-time involved, in that we don’t hire new writers all that often, and there just happened to be an opening at the time I was looking to move on from my research position. But I didn’t actually do a lot of conscious plotting about making the transition: My employer was looking for someone with a background and skill set just like I had. Having a track record of published writing is helpful, but I didn’t even really have that (except for academic papers). Our hiring process involves a writing test, so we can evaluate applicants based on the specific skills that we need.

    5. LRC*

      Hey, KHB! I’m gonna pop into your thread as well if people have questions, since I’m also a science writer and my work is a bit different.

      My job is writing news for a science magazine. My day-to-day work is similar to KHB’s – I read a lot of scientific journal articles and preprints to look for the most interesting research, I contact the researchers and other folks in the field and ask them lots of questions, and I write about it using standard English instead of scientific jargon (the audience is basically college-educated folks who have a previous interest in science). I have a BA in my scientific field and also no formal training in journalism or writing (although I started college as an English major, so I did take a lot of writing classes).

      Like KHB said, doing science writing well is super-difficult, and there’s a lot of mediocre stuff out there. If you’re really good at it and willing to hustle hard, even once you have a full-time job, you can make decent money and have a blast doing it. I love my job, my coworkers are ridiculously smart and wonderful, and there is a great community.

      1. H.C.*

        Ha, I’ve already jumped in – but an occasional science writer here too (my main role is actually PR/marketing, but a lot of the science writing work falls to me since I’m one of few on my team who can understand & break down research papers and carry a conversation with scientists). My work is developing content for an academic-research nonprofit, though (and runs the gamut from blogposts to grant proposals to web copy to impact reports) & I work more with bio/medical sciences.

    6. MissMaple*

      Awesome, thank you both to KHB and LRC for dropping in! Have you found any good resources or classes for working on your skills for writing in this specific way? Did you do any freelance writing in the science space before making the jump?

      1. KHB*

        Hmm. I wish I had a better answer for this. I’d say the vast majority of my skills development has come from seeking feedback on my writing (from colleagues, friends, and family, starting with my academic writing and continuing with my magazine writing) and paying attention to all of it. The doesn’t necessarily mean agreeing with everyone’s helpful suggestions (ha!), but it does mean not taking the attitude of “that comment is stupid – they obviously didn’t understand what I wrote.” Well, why didn’t they understand it? Is it possible that other readers might misunderstand in the same way? Is there a way to say the same thing that’s less prone to misinterpretation?

        Being a writer takes a delicate balance of confidence and humility. You need to be confident that you have something to say (even if your employer’s already hired you on the basis that you have something to say, to actually get the words onto the paper, you need the courage of your conviction that they deserve to be there). And yet, you need to fully internalize that once your writing leaves your desk, its value is wholly determined by what other people make of it.

        I never did any freelancing, and I don’t think I would have had the stamina for it. I’m very fortunate to have found my way into a salaried job that allows me the luxury of occasional navel-gazing like this.

      2. LRC*

        I haven’t used any formal resources, but there are master’s and certificate programs all around the country and online that I’ve heard mostly good things about. But like KHB said, seeking feedback is the most important thing, so I’ll put in another plug for interacting with the community of science writers online.

        And start a blog. Very few people will pay you to write about science if they have zero evidence that you understand writing or science, plus just writing every day (or week, or whatever) will probably improve your skills. I did freelance for a while, on top of my regular day job and then full-time, and that’s how I found my current reporting job – an editor I adored at a publication I hugely respected invited me to apply for an opening that I might not have even seen otherwise.

        Finally, get subscriptions to science publications you like. You won’t be able to write about science if you haven’t read how other people do it, and there’s a huge range of different styles out there.

  33. Introvert conference attendee*

    I have a work conference coming up next week that will be for four days. I do not travel often, so I am actually excited about being able to explore a new city a bit and stay in a hotel room on my own (thanksfully, we are allowed to get single rooms!), though nervous about meeting so many new people in the industry because I’m really shy. Some of the days are really busy with programs and meetings all day. What are your favorite snacks to bring with you? Any other travel tips to reduce anxiety for work conferences?

    1. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      I would plan a trip to a grocery store. I like having real food in the room, and it saves you money on snackies. I typically will cut up fruit and veg and stash ziplocks of thpose in my work bag. Nuts and trail mix are good too.

    2. Pam*

      My rule is to build in that alone time for recharging, and defend it like a tiger. Whether it’s 20 minutes at a hidden spot in the hotel lobby, or room-service dinner, do what you need to do to recharge. (I can do people all day if I can have quiet time at night.)

    4. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I definitely agree on hitting the grocery store and stocking up your hotel room with real food. Especially if it can save you from having to venture out for a meal, adding to your glorious alone time.

      I also find it helps to mentally put on your “worker hat” during the day, all while knowing that you can take it off once you’re done. Somehow thinking “right now this isn’t the me who wants nothing more than to be alone in my room reading or watching reruns of Fixer Upper, this is the business me who has connections to make and things to do, I can be that me later” helps me focus on what I need to do and get through it. Me me hates being surrounded by all these people and making the same small talk over and over, but business me knows this is what we have to do and can through it.

      1. Libervermis*

        I also find “professional me” to be a really useful role when I have to do things like talk to a bunch of people. Personally this role shift works especially well if I’m dressed a little different from normal – I only wear blazers professionally, for example, and I’ve been known to wear pantyhose even under pants because the different feeling helps me get into character. Obviously that will vary person-to-person and you want to be comfortable.

        I also recommend bringing along something that makes wind-down time feel especially luxurious to you. I sheet mask every night at conferences. A friend buys really nice cheese. Another takes a bath and reads formulaic thriller novels.

    5. H.C.*

      I try to eat a heartier breakfast (but not so much that I’d get food coma) so I can make do with snacks over lunchtime (cereal bars, fruit, jerky).

      As for reducing anxiety & getting “me time” (introvert here too!) – planning is key, namely figuring out what conference events are must attends and what are “like to attend, but OK to skip or attend part-time” and scheduling your me time around that. Conference venues tend to have a lot of spaces for people to decompress / take a break, so you can easily use that time to catch up on emails, read the news or take a breather.

      Also, unless you have must-attend post-conference reception/mixer/etc., enjoy your evenings to explore the city or relax in the hotel room.

    6. Naptime Enthusiast*

      Non-crumbly snacks, I’m a fan of Nature Valley Sweet & Salty or Clif bars.

      I get very flustered meeting lots of people at once, one thing that helps me is proactively extending my hand for a handshake and a mini elevator speech ready to go. “Hi I’m Naptime Enthusiast, I’m here with Widgets & Gizmos.” Not only does this get a conversation started, but it prevents me from my normal “ums” and “uhs” and makes me feel more polished. Also, dress up, but dress COMFORTABLY. The last few conferences I’ve been to required lots of walking, and had I not worn comfortable shoes I would’ve been hobbling around.

    7. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Comfortable shoes! I don’t bother with snacks, because you will be fed very regularly at the conference, I’m usually so stuffed by the end that I can’t even think about food.

      Bring a bag and a portfolio type thing for handouts and stuff, but try not to lug around a lot of things like laptops and such if you don’t have to. They get heavy by the end of the day.

      Pack and dress in layers. You’ll either be broiling or freezing and that can change between rooms.

    8. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Individually wrapped granola/protein/fruit-and-nut bars are great. For a 3-day conference, I can buy/bring one box at the beginning (usually 6 bars), ensure I have 2 in my bag each morning, and still have leftovers for the trip home.

      Hydrate, hydrate, hydrate. High air conditioning, talking a lot, walking a lot – you’ll want the extra fluids even if you don’t realize it.

      Plan some mid-day down time. Can you skip any program sessions? (Things where you’ll just be in the audience, rather than an active participant.) I don’t do this at one-day conferences unless I’m presenting, but for multi-day conferences I’ll try to find at least one time slot where I can skip any formal programming and do whatever I feel like at the time. Sometimes this might be talking to someone I’ve met earlier in the conference, sometimes it’s finding a place to sit and people watch, sometimes it’s finding a place where I can have a little time alone.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      We had something like this at my last job! In order to keep all our tickets well organized, if someone couldn’t log into their computer (or for any other reason couldn’t use their own device), they’d head to the physical help-desk location and log their ticket using an iPad docked there for that purpose. It helped a lot from an administrative perspective, from what I observed.

    3. CatCat*

      Ahahaha!

      At ex-job took the IT helpdesk phone number off the phone list when they rolled out a new online system for submitting tickets. That was changed quickly when it was apparent how useless that was when you could not turn on your computer or log in.

    4. Andy*

      At my last private firm we were all in a bit of system down time and logged off and shutdown and everything. An admin was tasked with letting everyone know they were ok to turn their computers on and log back in.
      So she did just that: by logging in and emailing us.
      An hour later, there were several of us just standing around and chatting, and I wondered out loud why this update was taking so long when the others didn’t.
      She looked up and said (I’m not even kidding you) ‘ooO, we’re ok to get back in the system. Didn’t you get my email?’
      That was the day I lost the knee-jerk respect I used to have for the MBA.

    5. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      My favorite is when our helpdesk used to email you to confirm that they’ve reset your network login. If I could log on to my computer, that might be helpful! They eventually figured out that they also have to email whoever submitted the ticket for you, but it took them MUCH longer than it should have.

    6. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      A couple of months ago I got an IM from someone at our IT helpdesk about a ticket that one of my interns submitted… Here’s the exchange that took place at the end of April..
      ~~~~
      IT GUY , 1:35 PM:
      Hello Random Do you have a moment?

      Random 1:36 PM:
      Hi, I do have a min

      IT GUY 1:36 PM:
      We tried to follow up with INTERN a few times regarding not being able to receive email. Do you know if this has been resolved?
      We have sent her emails as there is no listed contact number.

      Random 1:38 PM:
      Well it probably isn’t urgent as this is her last week.

      IT GUY 1:38 PM:
      Ah! Well, then I presume it wouldn’t be. Would you be OK with us closing the ticket?
      It was opened on Feb 8th.

      Random 1:40 PM:
      Yes, go ahead and close the ticket.

      IT GUY 1:40 PM:
      Great, thanks Random Have a great rest of your day.
      ~~~

      It took every ounce of willpower to not respond with ‘Huh… so you say the emails you sent her in regard to her problem getting email wasn’t successful?!’

    4. Sylvan*

      OMG.

      Today, one turd has divided a company. One solitary, well formed poo, has broken us..

    5. DaniCalifornia*

      I swear this is not the first time I’ve seen something similar to this. But this had me cracking up!

  36. Cousin Itt*

    I got through the first stage for the job I applied for! I’m super pleased because it’s the sort of company/industry that gets bags of applicants for any position so at least I know I’m doing something right.

    The role is for digital marketing so they have a very cool ‘n’ trendy applications process – no CVs or cover letters, stage one was submitting typed answers for four questions and stage two was a ‘video interview’ except you just record yourself answering the questions in a set amount of time.

    Anyone else gone through this sort of interview process? Any tips?

    1. m*

      I’ve done that before. They usually give you a short amount of time to think up an answer (usually a couple minutes) and then you record. The app I used had video instructions that explained everything and told you if you could refilm answers or if you had to submit. MAKE SURE to do tests for sound/vid with that app. My computer is perfectly fine with skype, but for some reason there was a high pitched screech whenever i opened my mic with this app, so i had to download it to my phone and use that. If you know the personality of the company, show off yours & how it fits. I got a follow-up for position with a pop culture brand because in questions that asked about my relationship to pop culture I held up props (Funkos, harry potter merch) when i would mention something related & they really liked it. (ended up not getting the job, but that had nothing to do with my video interview)

    2. Video interview tips*

      I went through a similar interview recently, for a similar role. The video interview in my case consisted in receiving the questions ahead of time and recording my answers. When I submitted mine, they said they “loved it”, and I did receive an offer,so if you haven’t gone through the video interview yet, and yours is structured the same way, perhaps my tips will help:

      – I’m a visual person, so I read the questions, wrote my answers, and then created a slideshow with them, timing each slide to move forward after I had finished reading from the previous one. After the first reading aloud, I adjusted the wording of my answers so that they sounded as close as possible to off-the-cuff speach. Then I triggered the slideshow and recorded myself.

      – I made sure light was well positioned to avoid shadows on the wall behind me.

      – I remembered to pause and smile as I read my answers, speaking as if I was talking to a friend.

  37. Gross Guy is New Hire*

    So I couldn’t figure out why the new guy on my team was bugging me so much, until I went back in my facebook messages and found some gross messages he sent me a few years ago. We has some mutual friends in High School, and then in college he asked me some sexual questions (supposedly) for a class survey. I’d answered others students survey requests before, but these were personal questions in a facebook message, not in from a formal survey. After a few questions I felt really uncomfortable and told him I didn’t want to answer any more. He sent me a few “whats up” messages after that, and then we didn’t connect until he got hired. I remembered this encounter, but I had confused him for another gross guy from high school until I double checked the archived message and saw that it was him.

    I guess my question is–what do I do about it? Do I show the message to my boss? Do I confront him? None of the messages are explicit and they honestly could have been for a class survey, but my impression then and now were that they weren’t. I’m just feeling gross about it again but I can’t tell if I’m over reacting.

    1. SoSo*

      I wouldn’t do anything with the messages right now. Hold off for if (or when) he does something to you now or in the future. He could totally leave you alone, or he could get weird again. If he does, then I would take it to your boss to show the history and continuation of his gross behavior. For now though I would keep my distance and not give him any opportunities to get weird with you.

      1. ExcelJedi*

        Agreed. Hopefully this person has matured since college and this won’t be an issue….but if he hasn’t, I’d use the message history as evidence of a continued pattern of behavior.

        1. Gross Guy is New Hire*

          The thing, is…. another co worker asked me about a few things she noticed. He sits next to male and female interns, but only talks to the female interns. And the coworker’s friend told her about some “hey whats up” messages he sent her, just this month. So I think a lot of it is a maturity issue, but I don’t want to leave it alone if there’s boundary issues that should be addressed.

          1. Dino*

            How reasonable is your boss, and would she be the type to be okay with you bringing something for her to have on her radar but not acting on it yet? I think that if Gross New Hire is pinging other coworkers’ radars and you know your boss would want to be alerted to something like this, you should bring it up in a “I’m not needing anything to be done about this and I personally haven’t had any further negative experiences, but New Hire tried to have boundary crossing sexualized conversations with me supposedly as research for a project in college. It made me extremely uncomfortable then and didn’t seem to be under the guidance of a professor or IRB approved, despite his claim that it was for class. Nothing has happened since he’s been hired and I’m hoping you will not make a big deal out of this/keep it close to the vest, but I would hate to have kept this from you only to have something happen where someone reported a similar interaction to you.”

            1. Jules the 3rd*

              +1 This is very much a ‘know your boss’ situation. *If* you choose to go to the boss, see if the other person will go with you. This is the kind of thing that’s easier in a group.

              Whether or not you go to your boss:
              1) Document document document – the fb history, what your co-worker noticed, anything you notice
              2) Don’t start a conspiracy or anything, but befriend the women around him. Be vocal about supportive messages – I just got into a conversation with our interns where I said my perception was that our employer would actually address concerns people had. If you don’t perceive that about your company, you can still talk to interns about ‘wow, doesn’t [latest story] suck? I know I’ve had creepers (or racists).’ This lets interns know you’re a safe person to talk to, and if there’s an issue, maybe they will come to you if they’re not comfortable going to their boss.

    2. Lucky*

      There is 0% chance those questions were for a class survey. I wouldn’t bring these old Facebook and WhatsApp messages to your boss, but I would keep an eye on this guy.

    3. Gross Guy is New Hire*

      I should also clarify that these questions aren’t that old–they were sent in 2015.

    4. Gross Guy is New Hire*

      Well I have an update already–I told my boss and now we’re going to talk to HR, so I’ll let you all know how that goes

        1. ginger ale for all*

          I think you did the right thing too. It is his probationary period and this is the best time to bring that up, jmo.

      4. Annie Moose*

        Good luck. Hope it goes well! And hopefully this can be addressed up front before things get any worse.

  38. Randi Mac*

    I’ve been a lurker here for years and have a question for the commenters. One of the interns made a comment yesterday that I think needs to be addressed by their manager, I don’t want to get them in trouble, I want them to understand that what was said was not cool. I work in a four person private space with two other women, our department intern (male) was put in with us as all the other spaces were full. Two other interns from different departments came into our space to speak with him regarding a project he is working on. These two sit in the cube farm with the other more junior men in their departments. One of the two commented on how big the desk was and the other said “It’s compensation for…” I turned to him and said “I’d be very careful with how you finish that sentence.” He laughed (not a whoops I screwed up laugh) and continued his discussion. Anyone see any issues with my talking to his manager and saying something along the lines of “I think you should be aware that one of your reports is not up to appropriate business standards and you might want to discuss with him behavior that will be expected when he goes out into the workplace.” or something like that. Or does anyone have any language they think works better?

    1. Pollygrammer*

      Was he deliberately trailing off or was he actually going to say “a small penis?”

      I’d personally lean towards letting it drop. They aren’t in your department, and their department may be more informal. In the moment, a casual “don’t make dick jokes at work” would have been fine, but you’re going to risk seeming like a tattletale for going to his manager about a mild innuendo that wasn’t directed at you, and wasn’t actually completed.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        I’d say ‘be careful how you finish that comment’ *is* a casual ‘don’t make dick jokes at work.’

        You addressed it in the moment. Until you see a repeat, that should be enough.

        However, it would be totally fair to put time / date / comment into a text file somewhere, in case there are repeats.

    2. fposte*

      I’d be more specific and more casual, whether I was talking to the manager or to the guy directly. If I’m understanding the comment correctly, a response could be “We really don’t joke about colleagues’ genitals here; it’s very unprofessional in this workplace, and it’s the kind of thing that can hurt your career.” To the manager I’d say “Intern Bob tried to make a joke about genitals and didn’t seem to get it when I warned him off of it.”

      This is a joke that would be okay, if maybe edgy, in some workplaces, so it’s possible that his manager won’t see it exactly the same way you do (which may be an argument for talking to the intern yourself), but I wouldn’t let that stop you.

      1. Randi Mac*

        No, it wasn’t going to be about genitals, it was compensation for having to sit with women

        1. fposte*

          Okay, I think Polygrammer read it the same way I did. If I had a reason to be sure he was headed toward a gender slur, I’d be a lot sterner with him in the moment; I would be likelier to report it to his manager but I’d still follow the “be specific” rule.

        2. Pollygrammer*

          Why do you interpret it as being about gender and not a broader “sucks that you’re not in the fun zone”?

        3. anonagain*

          Whoa, did he actually say that?! That’s definitely not where I thought that statement was going. I also assumed that it was a penis size comment. If you hadn’t said it was an inappropriate comment, I would’ve assumed he was going to say something benign about your intern sitting far away from the rest of the group.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            ^^ Yeah, I’m a little confused that’s where OP thought it was going. I’m assuming (hoping?) there’s some more context behind this… I also would have assumed some joke about genitalia, and if not that, something real benign about location. Gender didn’t cross my mind at all.

          2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

            I’m with you guys… I didn’t see it going to gender. I totally saw the penis joke coming. Or the allusion of the joke.

            OP is there something else that’s missing from your description. If it happened as you describe, I wouldn’t go to the manager with this.

    3. Jane*

      To be honest, I’d probably just talk directly to the intern and not the manager and see how that works. No need to escalate it. Just kind of sit down and say “Hey, I’m offering you this advice because this is the kind of office norm stuff that it takes people a long time to figure out. Jokes that seem OK at a part-time job are not OK in an office. And you may hear other people say them but that doesn’t mean it’s OK for them and it doesn’t mean it’s OK for you. Think about the person that you want to be seen as at work. Think about how you want to be perceived.” And so on.

      When I was a college student I made a shitty remark about another student who was not in the class and afterwards the professor pulled me aside and just kind of calmly pointed out that what I did was ugly and if I do things like that I’ll be seen as someone who is mean and catty. I remember she said “Think about how you want to be perceived” and that stuck with me. I appreciated that she addressed it personally to me in a private way. We all make mistakes in those early years. Having someone calmly point out those mistakes is the best way to improve.

      1. LKW*

        I agree. Years ago I worked at a very dysfunctional place where leadership would bully the receptionist mercilessly. She was devoted to them (family-ish org) but they would demean her, talk down to her, downright insult her to her face. One of the younger guys did that and I pulled him aside and told him that while that behavior may work in that particular office, if he ever decided to join one of the big firms he would find himself in HR’s office so fast he wouldn’t know what happened. He looked like a kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar -I don’t think he realized he was being an asshole. I can only hope he took the advice.

    5. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I’d probably drop it, but if you hear him tell more off color stories or jokes, you should speak with him privately and let him know he’s out of line and the office is not the place for that kind of talk.

  39. shep*

    I’d love to get into copyediting, but I’m not sure where to start. I’ve got an MFA in writing and a BA in English, and I’ve been at my current position (hybrid of admin and written content creation–but with lots of workplace limitations) for about four years. I know my skills are transferable, but I have no direct copyediting experience. I also don’t know exactly what people would like to see from a portfolio. I assume no one wants to see my creative work, so that just leaves some of the [small] projects I’ve worked on at my current workplace.

    So, on the whole, kind of at a loss. Any suggestions would be great!

    1. Rahera*

      There’s a great group on Facebook called Editors’ Association of Earth. They will have all the info you could ask for, and they are very friendly and helpful.

    2. Copy editrix*

      I don’t know how transferable writing skills really are. Of my colleagues, half are very gifted writers and half struggle with it (we occasionally have to write internal documents), but all are amazing at editing.
      We would never hire anyone with only writing experience to edit (although it might be enough for an assistant job). We’d want to see that you’d learnt specifically how to edit either by taking a course, a certification or another in house job. (And we’d want to see the same from prospective freelance editors.)
      I’ve never heard of an editor using a portfolio. Usually client confidentiality would prevent you from sharing past work with others. A test is more usual and allows the candidates to be compared fairly.

    3. Lore*

      I hire a lot of freelance copy editors and a portfolio isn’t really what I’m looking for. A work sample of an edited chapter (with markup showing) and a style sheet is nice, but I’m more concerned with a resume that shows experience copy editing full length works, references, and the results of a copy editing test. The key is finding some projects, whether through your work or elsewhere, to copy edit—not line edit, not write, and not developmentally edit, so it’s on your resume. We won’t even send the test out to someone with no professional experience. Also it can never hurt to spend some time with Chicago Manual of Style. (I also found Emmy Favilla’s “A World Without Whom” really entertaining and useful.)

  40. anon for this*

    Looking for advice :
    I have a new manager starting next week. I got a good impression from their interview and am excited to work with this person. We have overlapping areas of expertise, I think we’ll get along well and they will be a consistent decision maker (things previously lacking). But, I’m also burnt out. Managing a terribly understaffed and under resourced department. I’ve also recently found out I’m significantly (~30%) underpaid compared to similar folks in my role across the organization. How can I make a good/decent first impression without just dumping all of these problems on them at our first meeting?

    2. Ali G*

      Maybe reframe your thinking from the negatives to focus on how this person can be your ally in helping improve things?
      And separately, if you really are that underpaid is there an avenue to fix that?

    3. zora*

      How about straight out asking them?

      At your first sit down say something like “I have a lot of ideas of things that I think could be fixed/be better about this department. But I don’t want to make it seem like I’m dumping a lot of problems on you. Would you like me to lay out issues and solutions now? Or should we start with what’s going well and get to the other stuff later?”

      I think people are different, some like to jump right in, and some like to start on a positive note. I think a good manager will know this about themselves and be able to tell you what they want.

      And make sure you say the positive stuff out loud a lot! “I am excited to work with you. I think together we can make this department fantastic!”

  41. Alice Ulf*

    Hello all, I’d like to investigate a career in accounting, but I’m basically starting from zero. I want to learn the basics without spending much (if any) money, because I have played the not-awesome game of going back to school and paying several thousand dollars to realize that I’m totally unsuited for the day to day work.

    I’m familiar with some of the online resources (Coursera, Lynda, Open University), but this would be my first actual experience with one. Does anyone have any personal recommendations (or warnings, I guess) for accounting courses in particular? I can learn fairly well just by reading alone, but I would prefer a mixture of reading/audio/lectures, if possible.

    Thank you all for any help.

    1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      You’re going to have to be more specific when you say “accounting”. It’s a very broad field. Entry level that doesn’t require a degree would be book-keeping, payroll tax, sales tax or tax prep (think HR Block).

      In those cases you’re really learning software more than anything else (like quick books).

      1. BF50*

        Any job posting that has “clerk” in it is generally entry level and doesn’t require a degree (e.g. payroll clerk, accounting clerk, accounts receivable clerk, accounts payable clerk).

        Frequently these roles are interchangeable with ones that have “associate” or “specialist”, but with those titles, sometimes a degree or experience in lieu of degree is required.

        Sorry, I don’t have any specific course recommendations, but if you have Kindle Unlimited, you can get this book for free. It’s super dry, but informative.

        https://www.amazon.com/Read-Analyze-Understand-Financial-Statements-ebook/dp/B005VGNX0C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1531515158&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+read+analyze+and+understand+financial+statements

    2. Evil HR Person*

      I have experience with Coursera. They offer paid programs… but I’m cheap and they offer auditing of the same classes for free. You won’t get the certificate or the chance to “pass” the class, but you’ll get the information you need to at least make an informed decision. But first, what kind of accounting? Do you want to be an accountant with a CPA, or do you want to pay a company’s bills? They’re wildly different. The only accounting experience I have was taking an accounting class in college and it was so bad (to me) that I knew I wasn’t meant to do any financial work.

    3. Parker*

      I’m an accountant, and I started from zero – I was an admin at a startup and took on A/P and expense reports, then moved into bookkeeping, and then to full-cycle accounting. My supervisor got approval for the company to pay for community college classes for me to get my CPA.

      Biased toward my own path, of course, and may not be possible depending on your current employment/financial status, but I would suggest just starting to work some place. Many small companies will include some form of accounting duties in an admin-type role and will then be happy for you to take on more complicated tasks. Payroll or A/P clerk positions often don’t require much experience and you could tip your toe in there. Having some basic familiarity with Quickbooks (which many small companies use) would help – try Youtube, etc.

      I think it’s much easier to get a sense for how much you like the field by starting to work in it, and accounting is so interconnected (especially at a small company) that you will get a fair amount of exposure even if the piece you are actually responsible for is small or low-skill.
      Once you know you want to pursue this career, it makes sense to pay for community college classes so you can use the credits toward getting your CPA – that qualification will erase any doubts people might have about your lack of a more advanced accounting degree. I was doing mid-level accounting work day-to-day by the time I’d taken all the classes, so I knew what I was getting into.

    4. DaniCalifornia*

      Echoing the other comments, accounting is broad. I work for an accountant and we have several CPAs. We are full service firm that offers bookkeeping, payroll, sales tax, tax matters, help with audits, and tax returns. Our main service is business and personal taxes. I was taught everything when I joined and am in an admin type role. You can make decent money depending on your area for a nice firm. But I’ve been offered the chance to learn to prepare taxes and it is not for me. The CPAs/tax preparers work way longer hours Jan – Apr and then Sept – Oct than I would want to.

      If you want to be a CPA you’re going to have to get a master’s and pass all the exams. Or you can learn to prepare returns and not worry about the exams.

    5. Gumby*

      “I have played the not-awesome game of going back to school and paying several thousand dollars to realize that I’m totally unsuited for the day to day work”

      Is there any way you can explore this before sinking time into learning accounting? Do informational interviews with current accountants in different types of positions; find someone who will let you shadow them for a day; read professional publications in the field. Basically do as much research as possible at the start? Sure, it might be a little time intensive but if spending 50 hours on it now saves you 750 hours of course work then it is well worth it. And if it does cement your interest in the field, you have contacts who can advise you and may be interested in your career path.

    6. Alice Ulf*

      Thank you so much, everyone! This is all helpful information. I clearly have more research to do. This would be a career shift for me–I’ve done admin and property management work for the last several years, but I’m burned out and looking for something new.

      Thank you again.

    7. Hamburke*

      I’m a bookkeeper. I started as a PTA treasurer, liked it and started looking for training (I have degrees which I don’t use exactly – chemistry, science writing, secondary education). NACPB and AIPB have training programs. Both basically offer an accounting 101 online/self-paced class with a certification test at the end. NACPB has a 30 day free trial where you can use their video training to see if you might like it, can’t remember about AIPB, it’s been awhile. Work paid for my in person QuickBooks class when I started.

  42. FaintlyMacabre*

    I am a bundle of nerves right now! I got called for an interview (yay!) for the job that I’d interviewed for a couple months ago and didn’t get (boo) and really felt like I’d bombed the interview (boo). So I get another chance, but I’m freaking out. They wanted experience, which I don’t have, and honestly I think the only reason they called is that they may have to interview everyone who meets their criteria? And I don’t know what to ask in the interview- we covered a lot in the last interview and since I applied for the job two years ago, this is actually my third interview for the position! Aaaaaaaagh.

  43. WeNamedTheDogIndiana*

    Using a different pseud than usual bc of the situation:

    This week we had to go to HR because of the company’s extremely senior employees, who sits near my group, was playing with a knife during his meetings. We are all low-level employees and were terrified as all get out. To their credit, HR responded promptly and one of the board members gave him an extremely harsh talking to and told him to take any weapons he has in his office back home, but we don’t know if he did.

    I think he’s ex-military and he definitely has a whole machismo thing going, but what the hell, we should not have to be scared for our physical safety at work.

    1. peachie*

      Oh lord, that’s so scary. I don’t have any advice, but I’m sorry you’re in that situation.

    3. irene adler*

      Is someone (like HR) arranging an after hours search to locate and remove any weapons from his office and other work spaces that he frequents? Do they plan to repeat this at frequent intervals?

    4. Iris Eyes*

      Knifes aren’t necessarily weapons. I agree that it could be disturbing if that’s not something you are used to but if say he was cleaning his nails with his pocket knife that’s bad manners but not something that should make you afraid. If he’s sharpening a dagger or playing mumbly peg or something then yeah that’s really weird behaviour in the work place.

      Just because someone has a knife doesn’t mean that you are more under threat than otherwise. If he is behaving threateningly in other ways then that needs to be addressed regardless of whether sharp implements are involved. A reasonable healthy person isn’t going to start stabbing people just because they have a knife nearby.

      1. WeNamedTheDogIndiana*

        Nope, he was playing with a legit knife, not a pocket knife or a normal cafeteria knife. I’m not a knife expert, but like I said, I think he’s ex-military; it was something like a K-Bar. This is also not a workplace where any kind of weapon is acceptable, particularly not when he works directly with clients.

        He’s also excitable, prone to shouting, and as I said seems to take pride in his machismo. He isn’t threatening anyone directly, but given his personality we are extremely unsettled to know he has weapons.

        1. The Grammarian*

          Like I said below…same!! The guy I worked with took over a meeting I was running and yelled at another colleague about political stuff. :( I was disturbed and displeased.

        2. Iris Eyes*

          I would suggest you always assume someone who is ex-military and/or a macho “all-boy” type owns weapons and probably has them handy if not on their person. They might not but in my experience having weapons and having them handy is the rule not the exception. It sounds like you company might have policies against this given how the board reacted, in that case as well the issue is at least as much about disregarding policy than specifically about a knife.

          Does your company take the shouting as seriously? Because they should, yelling at people in the workplace is only acceptable if it is to save them from harm, or be heard over other noises. That needs to be given a hard stop immediately, don’t let the knife thing side track you for the bigger issue.

          1. zora*

            What?!? How many ex-military folks do you know? Because I know several, and while they are definitely skilled professionals with guns and knives, they do NOT carry weapons with them or ‘have them handy’ when in a civilian workplace. Or, for example, when they visit their kid’s school. The more experienced they are as military, in my experience, the more they know the appropriate and inappropriate places to have a weapon, exercise more extreme safety measures, etc, because they understand exactly how dangerous these things are.

            I would never assume one of my veteran friends always has a weapon on them when not in an actual combat situation, that is weird.

        3. Jules the 3rd*

          Ah – the ‘excitable, prone to shouting’ is key information.

          I have a friend who plays with his knife in social situations. He’s ex-construction, not ex-military, calm and kind. It’s not scary with him.

          With a scary person, everything is scary. I’m really sorry you had to deal with that, and that you have to deal with him in general. Any chance that board member would be open to hearing about other instances of ‘Knife Boss is a Bad Boss’, and help get rid of him?

          1. Rosemary7391*

            Yep, I think the knife isn’t the real problem. It’s a nice tangible thing for HR to get upset about, sure. But if they’re going to cause harm, they don’t need a knife to do serious damage. Someone who is a threat is a threat regardless of knife possession.

      2. Alli525*

        No one needs to bring ANY kind of knife – apart from Swiss or butter – to an office job. Period.

        1. Kj*

          I have an office job and sometimes use an Exacto knife. But there is no excuse for a K-Bar.

        2. Rosemary7391*

          I quite often have a thread cutter with me. Which are apparently not allowed on airplanes! I find that strange because IMO it’s easier and safer to use whilst on the move than scissors, which are allowed.. but there we go.

      3. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Correct, knives do not have to be weapons, they are also tools. However, it is not generally accepted in our society that playing with a knife is acceptable, non threatening behavior. Depending on the demeanor of the person, that could make it seem even more threatening.

        Bottom line – in many industries/work places, playing with a knife during a meeting is inappropriate and the weapon aspect will be more top-of-mind. If you happen to be in an industry with different norms, then you play by those rules.

      4. Longtime Lurker*

        Yeah our office has a big hunting culture upper management so they actually have company branded pocket knives to give yo customers. Our boss has 2 she uses to open her mail. So it’s not necessarily a red flag for office violence

    5. The Grammarian*

      I had a colleague play with/polish a knife in front of me when we were alone in the building. It was a macho ex-military guy also, a guy who held strong beliefs that were the opposite of what I believe/what I am. That’s part of the reason why I quit that job.

    6. A username for this site*

      This is really scary, but I’m also having a mental image of Toby going around The Office and pulling all of Dwight’s weapons out of hiding.

      Employee file “A. Knife”

    7. Joielle*

      Not to make light of a weird and scary situation, but my first thought was “do you work with Dwight Schrute??” Sad to know there are real-life versions of him out there!

    8. halmsh*

      Keep going back to them as a group. Get together and make talking points beforehand. You need to stress how intensely threatened and unsafe you feel. Use strong language – i.e. “we are afraid to be near this coworker” “we are afraid of what he might do” (obviously whatever feels most accurate, but don’t feel like you need to tone it down or take your feelings out of it). Don’t let HR let it go if you feel unsafe. Acting collectively will help a great deal, because they can’t bury you. You may even want to let other colleagues know this is going on so HR sees it as an issue.

      You might also want to check in with a labor lawyer or your state dept. of labor as this could be breaking laws.

      I was verbally harassed by a colleague in the presence of nearly the whole staff, and I still had to push and get others to push HR to get me protections. It’s terrifying. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

  44. Wandering Thoughts...*

    When I bring my boss answers (I’m an admin assistant so things like travel, catering, visitor scheduling, and the like), he says he prefers things in email that he can refer to later but then he keeps missing the emails and asking me why I haven’t reported back. Should I really be emailing him and then running into his office to repeat myself out-loud directly to his face?

    2. SoSo*

      As someone who has spent a lot of time being an admin, I would email him first, then pop in to his office and say “Hey, I sent you those travel quotes/meeting agendas/documents you asked for. They should be in the top of your inbox.” That way your bases are covered and you don’t have to repeat yourself.

      1. Margery*

        Put a reminder that you need a reply by a certain date – the day before if he hasn’t got back to you print off the email and leave it on his desk or grab him and ask.

    3. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      yep – that seems to be what he wants. You could also see if he’s open to having a physical in-box, where you can print off emails and place them there “for his approval”.

    4. whistle*

      “Should I really be emailing him and then running into his office to repeat myself out-loud directly to his face?”

      I would suggest to do this, but switch the order. Bring him the answer and listen to any follow-ups he might have based on the answer, then say “I’ll send the final details in an email” and then send the email.

      1. Champagne_Dreams*

        +1 This is the correct answer. Have the in-person talk first, then send an email to memorialize the decisions made.

  45. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom

    Farquad was bemoaning the fact that he can’t find an apartments, and actually wondered if there was anywhere stuff like that was posted. I told him if only there was something like a classified section, with listings of places to rent. He did not know that was what was in the classifieds. He was worked in newspapers for the last 20 or so years.

    The fax machine ran out of paper, and Fergus decided to refill it. Instead of asking where the paper went, or looking to see if he could figure it out, he simply found the biggest opening he could, and shoved the paper in that. It was not where the paper goes.

    We got a ‘new’ copyeditor this week, when someone else was reassigned. Fergus does not like this person. When he asked whose stuff was at the desk, and I told him, he stood there without speaking for several seconds. I could see the gears in his brain grinding to a halt.

    Another coworker and I were talking about work, when Farquad interrupted that he’d been on OKCupid, (while at work, at his desk) and gotten matched with someone from his high school. Instead of ignoring it, like I feel most people would, he informed us that he messaged her on Facebook to let her know they’d been matched.

    1. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      I love your weekly recap. Fergus and the fax machine is my favorite this week!

      1. foolofgrace*

        Sometimes people deliberately f-up doing things like clearing a paper jam (or refilling paper) so that they don’t have to ever do it any more.

      2. Bee's Knees*

        It was ridiculous. He’s been in this business for over thirty years, and really has no idea how to use it. He did leave a paper jam in the big copier up front, then didn’t tell anyone and walked away. The receptionist said that if he ever did it again, she was going to shame him over the intercom, then murder him and leave his body in the parking lot.

    4. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Im gonna need closure next week on that final point. But did she message him back!??!? :)

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I try really, really hard not to ask. I know far more about his personal life than I EVER wanted to. I’m guessing that she ignored it. He didn’t say, and I didn’t want to invite any and all further comments by asking.

    5. Thursday Next*

      I love your recaps! I was a newspaper reporter eons ago, and I feel nostalgic at times.

      I’ll also confess that I started reading the classifieds at a very young age, once I realized there were listings for free puppies…

    6. Bacon Pancakes*

      I’m not super hip to skip on OKCupid but… isn’t that the point of it that it tells the other person for you?

  46. thewheelbarrow*

    I was contacted by a recruiter, and had a phone call with her on Tuesday discussing the position. She asked me to give her my availability for the end of this week and submit my application – I did both, but she hasn’t gotten back to me and the week’s over now. Should I follow up next week? I know that’s pretty soon, but I’ve never dealt with recruiters before so I don’t really know what’s normal.

    2. Evil HR Person*

      Hiring is SUPER slow. Think 3 times slower than a sloth running in molasses. So, you can follow up once – only once – at the end of next week, but then put it out of your mind (like Alison says). Just today someone called me following up on a phone interview. I’d totally forgotten about the person because I’m hiring so many people and I’ve spoken to about the whole United States that when they said, “this is Jane, we spoke earlier this week,” I had to ask what did we speak about – because I honest-to-goodness didn’t know and couldn’t remember…

  47. Mrs Pitts*

    I am looking for some advice. I am a high school science teacher and I would eventually like to transfer to a more 9 – 5, year-round, better paying job. Has anyone done this or hired a former teacher? What skills should I work on building? What kind of roles do teachers transition well into? Would I need to take a pay cut (entry level position)? Thanks in advance!

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      I’ve been a teacher and worked in the private sector over the last 20 years. It really depends on what you might want to branch into. Teaching has a lot of transferable skills: public speaking, organization, experience with bureaucracy and paperwork, diplomacy, content matter, sales…it really depends on what you want to do. We definitely acquire in the classroom – you just need to position yourself best with what you may want to do.

      My advice would be to start looking on LinkedIn and with companies that interest you. Also, talk your friends in other industries to see what they think and if they would hire someone with your experience. It’s also a great way to practice selling someone on how to see that your skills will work well for them. Both of my non-teaching career jaunts were into event planning and publishing. Both pulled a lot from teaching-related skills. Other friends have become pharmaceutical reps, become lawyers and gone into sales.

      Good luck!

    2. Justin*

      I do employee training. I make much more than my normal teaching days. I’d work on getting some experience with adults. Even just volunteer in the summer (always ESL classes around at nonprofits etc).

    3. KHB*

      See my post in this thread about science writing. We just hired a former high school science teacher. She left teaching to get her PhD (which may or may not be of interest to you) and is coming to work for us straight out of that. Her teaching background was seen as a plus. Although the PhD years would have involved a pay cut, I believe she’s earning considerably more with us than she did as a teacher.

    4. lisalee*

      I work at an education research/consultancy firm and we often hire former teachers to work in outreach, marketing, product development, or research. I would say you have better shot here if you were either high level admin (principal, department head, superintendent, etc) or have other credentials like being involved in national organizations. I also know several of our employees have previously worked at think tanks or education nonprofits after being teachers.

    5. Non-Teacher Educator*

      Informal education institutions, especially science-focused, will definitely hire former teachers in various roles (museums, zoos, etc.) – to the dismay of people with specialized museum degrees. But the job market is really tight and I suspect the pay would be worse than teaching.

      As another poster indicated, looking at education/curriculum corporations (whether they are non-profit or for-profit) might be a more lucrative route, if that kind of work would suit you. From project development (curriculum writing, program development, etc.) there can be valuable knowledge and skill-set that quality classroom teachers bring to the process. I particularly think this is true because you’re in science. I would think about trying to get to an NSTA conference when it’s nearby. You could get a real sense of the range of companies that sell products and services to teachers/schools and options for how a former STEM teacher could plug in.

  48. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    What’s the weirdest job you ever had?
    One of my first jobs in high school was photocopying thousands of tiny slips of paper with addresses and phone numbers on them for my mom’s friend. I have no idea what it was even for.

    1. Sometimes yes, sometimes no*

      I spent a summer folding yarmulkes and other laundry for a Jewish boys’ camp.

      I have no idea where that camp was because the town I lived in was incredibly Protestant/Catholic. They would have had to come from 10+ miles away.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I once worked as a “graphic designer” at a company that created coupons and advertisements that were printed on the back side of cash register receipts. The company sold ads to local small businesses and then provided the rolls of cash register receipt paper to other businesses (mostly supermarkets and big box stores) for free.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      I once had an internship ‘interviewing’ boaters at boat landings to get data on and spread education around about the importance of cleaning your gear & your boat to prevent the transfer of aquatic invasives.

      However, I was also up in the Northwoods of WI, and we tried to get every landing in the counties we covered. This meant that I had a lot of days where my job was to drive to the landing to arrive by 6:30, hang out in a lawn chair for 4 hours with no one at all showing up, rinse and repeat to another landing for the afternoon…..there were *weeks* where I saw not a soul. Got a lot of reading done for my thesis, though. And a pretty good tan. Though there was also the relatively frequent weird comments from creepy boaters…. “Aw, come boating with us!” (me, an obviously young female by herself with a boat of like 5 older men) “We have beer – wanna come with?” (same as before) “You should sell ice cream! Why don’t you sell ice cream??” (…..I think storage would be an issue, but also now I want ice cream, thanks) and the rest of the “oh if I knew *you* would be here I’d be here every day!” type sh!t.

      I also was surprised by the number of people that would gladly talk to me if they thought I was from the local university, but wanted nothing to do with me if I was state gov’t. The gov’t paid for contracts from the local uni for these positions, so I was technically both, and usually wore a uni t-shirt and had a gov’t labeled clipboard & stickers.

      I have lots of weird stories about that internship.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      Not me, but a company I shared an office with: Developed the first Adam & Eve website, back in ’95. Basically converted the catalog to digital format, though some accessories would get sent to the office for fresh photos.

      The surprising thing was how normal it became.

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I worked two seasons at a local Renaissance Festival. (This is why I can always spell Renaissance correctly.) One season I was a cast member, and the second season I worked in a booth.

      The pay was terrible, the drama was high, and it was all tremendous fun.

      I remember hearing other workers tell various wild stories and feeling terribly sheltered and naive that I didn’t have anything like that to share. Shortly after I started my current job, I told my coworkers a story that started with “When I worked at the Renaissance Festival…”. That was when I realized that my time spent working at the festival was my turn to have the experiences that would become my own future wild and crazy stories. It was a pretty good feeling.

    6. HRB*

      Creating content for a “Russian dating” site (what most people would equate to a mail order bride site).

    7. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I once worked in a taste testing both where people were supposed to identify whether they preferred Coca-cola or Pepsi. It was an interesting summer job.

        1. Anne (with an “e”)*

          I found that people were extremely and fiercely loyal to their particular soft drink. It was so bizarre. So many people were absolutely positive that they could identify which was which cola, and … they were right. It was as if I were asking if they preferred Democrats or Republicans, or their favorite football team. I was in college at the time and never realized that some many people actually cared so very much about **soft drinks.**

          (Pepsi is sweeter, but most people prefer Coke.)

    8. Whatsinaname*

      Way back when, I worked as an elf for a department store Santa. Part of the job was to lift the little kids on and off Santa’s lap. Santa’s lap got occasionally piddled on.

    9. smoke tree*

      I worked for one of those old-time photo places where you dress up in costumes. It sounds like fun but it wasn’t.

    10. LilySparrow*

      I spent about a week as a dribble wiper at an ice cream factory. The cartons would get filled, frozen, then wheeled on pallets into a cold room where we would wipe them one at a time, restack them on an empty pallet, then shrinkwrap it to be re-frozen.

      Unbelievably boring, but it was a wakeup call for a sheltered, privileged kid like me. I was there because I rolled into town, called a bunch of temp agencies and said I’d take the first opening, no matter what it was. By the second week I was answering phones in a corporate office for a couple bucks more an hour.

      My coworker was absolutely thrilled to be wiping dribbles, it was the best job she or anyone she knew had ever had.

  49. Ellylili*

    Does anyone have any recommendations for Microsoft Access tutorials? Or, does anyone have any suggestions for software (preferably an online tool) that’s a simpler version of Microsoft Access?

    I’m creating a “lending library” of our demo products that our sales reps use and loan out to potential customers and I need something that more robust than an Excel spreadsheet, which we’re currently using but isn’t cutting it. I’m trying to create something in Access right now, but am feeling overwhelmed.

      1. Rowl Silent Paws*

        I like the Access All In One channel on YouTube, especially if you are not an expert in VBA

    2. Rowl Silent Paws*

      I like the Access All In One channel on YouTube, especially if you are not an expert in VBA – sorry for the duplicate – I meant this to go here.

    3. epi*

      Lynda has some pretty good videos on Access, complete with practice data and some introduction to basic relational database concepts.

      Personally I would be cautious about deciding to do a project like this in Access. In my experience, the ability to create forms and reports is where a lot of the value is– but these features are actually pretty clunky and unintuitive to configure. Plus, at least within the fields I have worked in, it is kind of an awkward product. Most people haven’t been exposed to it and would have a learning curve to take the database over from you; but a lot of people who are very proficient with data management are actually using more powerful and flexible products, so they don’t use it for that reason. If you don’t think a typical person qualified to replace you would come in knowing Access, I would try to find some other product. I built an Access database for a project I work on and am in the process of migrating the data to a different product because I was the only one who knew how to use it and even I wasn’t happy with it. And this is the second workplace I have been in where this happened (I didn’t build the first database). My predecessor even built a very nice query function for other users, but they would still end up calling me because they found the database too intimidating.

      Depending on the complexity of your project, you may actually want to look into web-based surveys and data management services. Good ones will let you set up very nice forms that don’t give respondents access to all of the underlying data and can even include some conditional logic, download the data in the format of your choosing, and generate some statistics and reports from within the web service. My former Access project is being moved to REDCap, and before I settled on that I also looked into Qualtrics. I’ve also used Typeform to create very attractive surveys that are easy to duplicate and let you view the data online.

  50. Memily*

    Bear with me, and apologies for the length. (And thanks in advance to anyone who reads.)

    I’ve been unhappy with my job for a while now–I was hired as an office assistant who assists with our e-commerce department, and over the past three years I’ve been given more responsibilites, also assisting with our wholesale department and being the main point person for customer service. At larger companies, these duties would be split between 2-3 people, but we are small (but growing) so it falls to me. For the past year I’ve become very overwhelmed, and also in some instances bored with the job I have. I can see how at other companies it could grow into something more than what it is, more specialized with more actual responsibility, but as it is now I just keep the parts moving for two departments and make sure it doesn’t fall apart.

    I took my job description and wrote two different job descriptions out of it, dividing the duties and even adding some (some things that my boss does that could easily be done by someone else, but she has some difficulty letting go of control, even when she has a lot of other things on her plate, as CEO and co-owner). For a moment I thought about taking it to my boss and proposing a role change and hiring someone else, but the company doesn’t have the money to do so. My partner told me that maybe I should look for the revised role somewhere else, but I don’t yet have the experience that I could be gaining here if my role were more specialized, and I doubt another company would take a chance even though I’m sure I could be successful.

    I feel very all over the place and I’m not happy, and I’m not sure what I need to do to be happy with my career. Should I keep applying to jobs I’m qualified for but don’t really want? Should I take classes? I feel so directionless.

    1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      If you think the revised role (requiring experience that you aren’t get getting except in small doses because you’re to focus on because you’re doing everything else – sorry, I didn’t fully follow that part) is something that would genuinely make you fulfilled at work, could you afford to take classes (even online) and look for networking opportunities to help get a foot in the door? You may not need full experience to apply for the revised role if you have partial experience and a mentor/network

    2. BRR*

      When you say you’re overwhelmed, do you have too much on your plate? If so I would bring up how your workload is too much and either ask to split the role or higher someone under you to help you with both parts of your job. Unless the company is in serious financial troubles that are very well known, don’t let that finances stop you from bringing it up. It may not happen right away but the next head county addition could be for your team.

      I would still try applying to some of the more specialized roles. You don’t lose anything by applying.

  52. Too Nice*

    The letter Alison responded to yesterday about the error-prone employee came just a few days too late for me. Earlier this week, I tried to have “the talk” with my assistant about her continued and increased errors nearly a year into the job. I know I let it go too long but I cut her a lot of slack due to the varied nature of the work and her learning a new industry. Only in the past month did I realize her careless mistakes were getting worse and it dawned on me that she shouldn’t still be making mistakes on something she’s consistently done for 6+ months. I started documenting, saw a clear pattern of daily mistakes, and took her aside to discuss it with her. I admit I was too soft and nice about it. I said something like, “Overall you’re a good fit here and are doing good work, but I have noticed a lot of careless mistakes that seem to be increasing, not decreasing in frequency as you reach your one-year anniversary here. I hoped to be able to cut back on double checking your work but I don’t see that being an option given the mistakes.” I also said some things to indicate she shouldn’t worry her job is in jeopardy but slowing down and double checking everything would be a good place to start. She seemed responsive enough but I’ll admit the mistakes have continued over the past few days.

    I planned to wait a month, correct her mistakes as needed and point out the problems, and continue to document. Then have another more serious talk if it’s needed, but I worry that it will seem incongruous with the previous conversation if I suddenly take a hard stance. I wish I could go back in time and use the advice from Alison’s response and the comments to address it more directly and firmly, but that’s not an option. I’m now thinking about handing things with errors back to her and asking her to find the mistakes, rather than noting the specific mistakes she needs to change. Beyond that I don’t know what else to do other than be patient and see if she improves over the next month.

    Is waiting a month too long? I don’t want to jump down her throat every time she makes a mistake but it bothers me that the very next day she submitted something with an obvious typo. I’m the type of person who takes negative feedback very seriously so I hoped our conversation would have the same scared straight effect on her that it would have had on me. It’s obvious that’s not the case so I’m antsy to revisit the topic sooner rather than later to clarify my expectations. In addition, how do I walk back from the nice tone of our first conversation?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      A month is too long. Give it a week and then you have a very natural reason to go back and say, “We talked about this but I haven’t seen a change. This is something I need you to take really seriously. What plan can we put into place to help you fix this?”

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Also, is it true that this won’t jeopardize her job if it continues unabated? If not, you can deal with the mixed messages there by (at some point, maybe in the conversation after this next one) saying, “When I assured you this wouldn’t jeopardize your job, I was assuming you’d take the feedback and make the changes I needed. I want to be up-front with you that if that doesn’t happen — and right now it’s not happening — this will impact whether we’re able to keep you on. So it’s really important that blah blah…”

        1. Too Nice*

          Thanks so much for your reply, Alison. Well, it’s highly unlikely she’d get fired over it as 1) My boss/owner of the company would blame me for not training her or dealing with this adequately, 2) I am technically responsible for everything she does being 100% correct so any fallout from her mistakes lands on me (hence why I double check everything she does), and 3) He has a history of letting less-than-stellar employees stay on because he seems to think capable office staff is hard to find. I also have no authority or control over hiring and firing so I wouldn’t want to make that claim since he seems to make those sorts of decisions on a whim. I’ve lost count of how many times he’s overshared that he’s going to fire an employee and details the reasons why, but then he never actually fires that person. Yeah, it’s not a 100% functional workplace. I’m struggling to institute things like clear expectations and deadlines and to give helpful feedback when changes need to be made since that wasn’t the norm here before I was promoted to manager.

          1. SarahKay*

            Your boss lets less-than-stellar employees stay on because ‘capable office staff is hard to find’?!? Has it occurred to him that maybe that’s because he’s apparently quite happy to settle for mediocre office staff? And not, you know, give you the authority to either bring them up to Capable, or else let them go and get someone better.

      2. Too Nice*

        Thanks! That seems like a much more reasonable timeline to me. I’m glad it has the official Ask a Manager stamp of approval. :)

    2. JeanB in NC*

      I think handing it back to her without marking the mistakes is a good idea. You can also do what else Alison suggested, which is asking her “are you 100% sure this is typo-free?”. I’d revisit in about 2 weeks.

      1. WellRed*

        I’ve done this with a writer. Literally handed it back and said, I already see three typos in the lede, I am not going to read further.

    3. Ali G*

      Did you tell her you were going to be checking back in a month and expect to see improvement? If not I would do that now, at the very least.
      Also, I think you should stop reviewing/editing her work at the first error you see. Start taking the hardline now. When you are reviewing something and come across the first error, send it back to her, and state specifically that she is still making the errors you just discussed and you won’t review it until she fixes all the errors – and leave it up to her to do the work in finding them and fixing them.

      1. Too Nice*

        I hadn’t given her a timeline so that’s a great suggestion. And thank you for the suggested phrasing on what to say when I hand things back to her. That’ll be very helpful.

      2. foolofgrace*

        Or, if you really need to make sure she fixes ALL the errors, you could just make an X in the right-hand margin of the line containing the error and make her figure out what the error is. Otherwise I can see her not seeing the errors that you see (if you only mark the first one), and you’ll have a round-robin of hand-in-the-work, get-the-work-back, etc.

        If it’s a Word document and not printed out, use Track Changes to insert a Comment that contains only an X in the note.

        1. Too Nice*

          Ooh, I really like this idea. Because yeah, I can already predict she might not see the mistakes I do. I was wondering how to give her a hint without doing the work for her so this solves that problem. Ultimately I want her to take the time to double check her own work, which does no good if she’s not practiced in spotting her own errors. Thanks!

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I think the language you used was great! Do you meet with her weekly? Could you go over what she has done well that week as well as specific examples of what she still needs to work on? I had to have similar conversations with a former employee and it seemed to work well to improve her work.

  53. Justin*

    So. What’s the best way to handle a minor but irritating problem?

    I have sort of mentioned this before.

    TL,DR: My coworker is, plainly, jealous of me. But we have to work together frequently and I think he does actually like me, so it’s really all his own issue, yet it annoys me, but it only happens once a month or so.

    I got hired in Jan of 2017. That summer, someone left unexpectedly. At the time, this coworker and I had the same title. The person who left had the next title up (though wasn’t any sort of supervisor). Since I had only been there 6 months, I felt it a bit presumptuous to ask to take the open role, as there were two other people (incl this guy) with my title who had been there longer. But then our boss took me aside later that summer (while the search was ongoing) and said I should apply. Not gonna say no to that!

    I applied. I interviewed. I got the job/promotion/raise.

    A little after I got it, the director of our team sent out an email announcing it. Most folks offered, you know, congrats, great work etc. I don’t need such things! But won’t complain.

    This guy said congrats and then said he was a little miffed it happened (implied because he’d been there longer). Alright, whatever, be that way.

    But! That was September. Now, every time someone comes into the office who is a relative or some such, or a new employee, this guy (who is sort of the office social gadfly) will announce folks including titles/roles, and when he gets to me, he’ll say my title, but intentionally add some sort of comment about how I’m “better” than people with his role. I usually just stare at him (the people who come in don’t really care anyway).

    And this has happened 6 or 7 times since then. Only when someone external comes in. When we teach together, he sometimes undermines me as well (ex: I once introduced myself to our students by saying I have a connection to all 5 boroughs since they were from all over the city, and then he “jokingly” said he’s spent all of his time in just one borough, etc. When I got into a doctoral program, which start soon but I’m not quitting, he, soon after, started talking about how he “doesn’t even want” additional degrees (who asked you?)).

    Frankly I have finally gotten to a point mentally and emotionally where this is just annoying rather than destabilizing. I have full confidence in my abilities and accomplishments, and it’s really not my problem that I am continously (over?)educating myself with this and that degree. (And I expect the fact that I’m ten years younger, etc etc is part of it.)

    Do you think it’s worth it to address it? I spoke to a colleague and he does this weird undermining stuff whenever he Has a Sad. It’s been suspected that the managers are fond of him because he has the most in common with our students (similar socioeconomic backgrounds and education levels, while the rest of us are, you know, eggheaded types). Should I just roll my eyes and continue to do well at work? My dad suggested, hilariously, that next time he does it, I respond, “Well, if you work really hard, you can have this position someday too.” That wouldn’t go over well, but it’s tempting. He sits right over the cubicle wall from me though.

    Thoughts? And sorry for prattling on so long!

    1. fposte*

      Yeah, this is very much about him and not you, and it’s smart of you to see it for the jealousy it clearly is. (Congrats on the doctoral program, by the way!)

      I think unless you feel like it’s having an impact on others in the workplace I’d go with rolling my eyes. Another option is to respond with “You sound really unhappy here.” (Optional “what’s up?” if you’re open for a conversation.) I doubt he knows that his pattern is so revealing, and that’s a response that’s engaging with the underlying emotion rather than the content. It’s also making it clear that whatever he’s trying to achieve with these comments isn’t happening, and that he’s looking more vulnerable rather than less.

      But just rolling your eyes is a lot less work.

      1. Justin*

        Yeah I think the most empathetic thing might be to ask him to chat and ask “what’s up? You mention that sort of thing a lot. Is there an issue?” And he probably will say nothing, but then he’ll know it’s noticed and might stop. Or continue and then I can point at it and be like, “Ah, so, that again.”

        And thanks. I’m excited and a bit scared.

        1. Margery*

          I agree with fposte. Justin I like your empathy – you must be great to work with – seriously – your integrity is more important than playing mind games with your colleague.

          In a way you should definitely feel sorry for him. Good luck

    2. OldJules*

      I don’t engage with people like that because they are responding based on their own internal insecurity. I have someone who works with me that will tell me that the sky is green just so he can argue with me and ‘win’ just to put me in my ‘place’. FYI, I am in a senior role to him and years his junior. I just let it go. This is not about me, this is about him. Sadly, I actually like his personally. I just need to realize that work is work, personal is personal and so happens that while we click in other ways, work is not one of them.

  54. Slipjack*

    Data-ish folks: I’ve been asked to compile a list of dos and don’ts for talking about data (which in my office means basically anything that has some quantitative component). Any big peeves? So far I’ve got:

    – don’t use contextless numbers
    – correlation != causation
    – don’t use data as a weapon (ie, use it to find new areas of exploration, not shut down conversation)
    – don’t trust your data more than you trust your employees

    Other ideas?

    1. Anonygrouse*

      A couple more:
      – “Anecdata” is not a substitute for data (anecdotes, experiences, etc. are useful but IME people tend to use them to dismiss any numbers they don’t like, and a voiced opinion is not inherently a good qualitative measure.)
      – Data definitions are important. (What exactly are you trying to measure? What’s getting included? What’s getting excluded? What assumptions are implicit in the measures? Sometimes people act like these conversations are timewasters but they can be crucial for interpretation, especially if you are trying to compare something across different data sets.)

      My other pet peeve is that I hate pie charts, but I try not to be too aggressive about that one :)

      1. Slipjack*

        Ugh I got a request from my boss to give him “a list of all the data” for “pie charts and such”. I thought seriously about quitting on the spot.

      2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        Pie charts have their place… a very small and very narrowly defined place, but a place they have.

        I only use them when I want to show scale, if that makes sense. Usually it’s we have a bunch of whatsits, but let’s focus on the top 3 whatsits.

    2. Free Meerkats*

      If your data is showing something unexpected, and you are not looking at ALL the data, look at all the data. This from having to explain to our consulting engineer that the “trend” she was seeing while looking at 5 years’ data was an artifact of a change we had made. She didn’t believe it until I charted out 20 years’ of data and you can clearly see it.

      And do you pronounce it data or data? :-)

    3. Brownie*

      Manipulated data can only be trusted if you understand the whole process used to manipulate the data. This is a big one when it’s something where lots of data is being condensed down. Dealt with this a lot where years of multiple measurements per minute would be manipulated via formulas on the backend of the system to produce system-specific statistics. Rounding errors were my bane with that; convincing the folks who wrote the application that no, straight rounding to 2 places was causing the end data to be incorrect remains one of the most frustrating work experiences I’ve had.

      Recommended reading for anyone who works with data: How To Lie With Statistics. It deals with how data can be presented in such a way as to induce bias or, worse, completely invert what the data is actually showing. It shows the need to actually think about how data/numbers are presented before discussing it, especially casual stuff like “The increase in teapot requests has skyrocketed this week! It’s 300% of what it was last week!” when 300% means there were 3 requests total.

    4. Borgette*

      Know your data and where it comes from (Who created the dataset, for what purpose, what does it include/exclude, how often is it updated, any quirks)

    5. Iris Eyes*

      Use consistent definitions and terms!

      Never trust Excel, its like a domesticated animal sure most of the time its nice but always be aware that it could kill you with little warning or provocation.

        1. Iris Eyes*

          I still shudder when I think about the million dollar decisions we make everyday that depend on a dozen manually updated spreadsheets that are pulled into another spreadsheet.

      2. JokersandRogues*

        Ooh, I like that description of Excel. My pet peeve is leading zeros. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve yelled (in my head) at it that I wouldn’t have typed the 0 if I didn’t want it there!

    6. JokersandRogues*

      1) Be sure that your definition of a data term is the same as everyone else’s. Creating a data dictionary is ideal.
      (It took 6 months at one job to get everyone agreeing to the same definition of Gross versus Net sales. )

      2) Make sure everyone understands how Excel handles Rounding versus Truncating decimal numbers. That was an ongoing fight for three years at the same job as above.

      1. Brownie*

        Oh man, rounding issues, especially when working with scientific data where actionable amounts may be out at the 5th or 6th decimal place. Oh look, in Excel these contaminants don’t exist in our samples, they’re at 0.00! Yeah, no, Excel is LYING.

    7. JustaTech*

      If you’re running stats on your data:
      -Make sure your statistical test are appropriate and used correctly. Excel will do whatever you tell it to and give you a number, even if it is technically impossible to calculate.
      – Always graph your data so you can see if that thing that is statically significant is also meaningful (a 0.01C temperature difference may or may not be meaningful, depending on what you are measuring).
      – Make your graphs legible, reasonable and appropriate. (Pie charts are for percentages that sum to 100, and nothing else.)

    8. LKW*

      Can you trust the data? How have you defined Quality Data and how is it verified? What gaps indicate poor quality? What indicates good quality? How can you improve the data quality and at what cost? When does it cost too much?

    9. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Clearly state assumptions if any are made in the data or the interpretation
      Summarize key points when presenting

    10. Mike C.*

      What’s wrong with using “data as a weapon”? If you data shows that people will die or you’ll end up breaking the law, shouldn’t that sort of conversation be shut down in favor of something better?

      Or let’s go with a less extreme example – data showing that a current hiring process inadvertently results in fewer women and minority candidates being interviewed or being offered lower starting salaries.

      1. Mike C.*

        Also, what sort of things are you tracking and what are you measuring by tracking them? I have a good bit to say about trend analysis, control limits and the like but I don’t know if it would apply to you.

      2. Slipjack*

        Yeah, I need to come up with a better way of putting it. What I’m thinking of is using data to attack particular people instead of figuring out system failures. In my org, the general tone of data use is to find ways staff are messing up. Management will pay lip service to the systemic failures while continuing to focus on data that’s purely punitive.

        1. Mike C.*

          Ok, so I think what you need to do here is to ensure there’s a focus on both actual process improvement/root cause analysis and ensure that outside of malicious acts you have multiple causes for any issue that comes up. Also, focus on challenging ideas rather than challenging people – this is something that can take folks a while to really understand.

          Lots of workplaces are really wary of this approach because it seems “too involved” and “too much work” and sounds complicated” (you even see lots of folks here who hold these beliefs), but if you’re going to actually use data to make things better, then you need to take these sorts of approaches. If you’re looking for case studies, look at the NTSB. Don’t focus on the fact that they’re dealing with life or death situations, but focus instead on the fact that they look at and examine all the causes for an incident and then suggest ways to mitigate or minimize those issues.

          Say you have an example of a plane that crashes on take off. Firs you find out that the plane wasn’t prepped correctly – flaps and slats weren’t set by the pilot (This just means that the wings are configured to provide maximum lift. If you sit by the window, you’ll see these retract as the plane gets to cruising altitude.) Many, many folks will stop there, blame the pilots and stop looking. Even if you suggest looking further, some will be angry or even outraged that you’re trying to “shift blame away from those who deserve it”. I’m preaching to the choir, but seeking revenge means you won’t learn how to prevent the problem from happening in the future.

          So instead you continue looking deeper. You note that the wing settings were part of the standard checklist, but that the checklist is massive(1). You find out that there were a bunch of last minute changes to the plane configuration(2), and that while the pilots were getting to wing settings in the checklist, they were interrupted on the radio and skipped that item(3). You find out that some ad hoc repairs to the plane (having nothing to do with the wings) before flight involved pulling circuit breakers, which disabled the speakers which give audible warning alarms to the pilots alerting them to the wings not being set correctly(4). When you address all those deeper issues, you can then start dealing with the problem and making real, effective changes.

    11. epi*

      Stop and think: are you really talking about the data? Or are you talking about the results of a specific analysis? A p value isn’t data. A graph isn’t data. A map isn’t data.

      Data are a table of observations and variables. Or your photos of your study site. Or your videos and transcripts of your focus groups. There are coincidences in there, and raw values that don’t mean much until they are used to calculate something else, and patterns that are really just artifacts of the way the data were collected.

      The results of an analysis are always the result, at least in part, of someone’s judgment. While there are wrong ways to analyze a given data set, there is rarely just one right way. Often the options for analyzing the data are limited by the way it was collected or by what it represents, and trade offs were made in collecting and understanding it. When we decide whether we believe the results and how to share them and whether to act on them, we add another layer of judgment and subjectivity to the process.

      No responsible analyst should be blurring the distinction between data and results– it’s one thing to speak colloquially but it’s a huge red flag if someone wants you to think a report is objective or this is the only way it could have come out. And for consumers of these results, realize the answers you need won’t be written on that report. What you see is a result of the analyst’s decisions about anything from their choice of tool, to their approach to model building, to their choice of colors and scale. They should be able to explain all of that to you. And you should be able to explain the decision you made next based on more than just “the data”, because ultimately what you are doing is deciding, as a professional, how to interpret another professional’s work.

  55. Reluctant Trainer*

    My boss (who owns our small company) has decided to hire a relative, “Aemon.” Aemon has been retired from a specialized, unrelated field for 15+ years and wants to both stay intellectually active and increase his income, which i definitely understand! However, I am responsible for thinking of a job for Aemon and training/supervising him. Again, our business is completely unrelated to Aemon’s prior field of expertise, and most of the jobs/tasks for our business that can be learned quickly are not ones that Aemon wants to take on (helping out at our reception desk, managing supplies/inventory, running errands around the city, etc.). Aemon has said he doesn’t want to “stare at a screen all day,” although he is okay with light computer use (and all of our knowledge work jobs involve at least heavy use of email). I am pretty stumped, and any attempts to engage my boss or Aemon in deciding on an appropriate job lead back to the insistence that coming up with something is my responsibility. I will admit I am also a bit resentful because my boss told me I had to cancel my planned summer vacation because I will need to be training/supervising Aemon (I can reschedule for the fall – IF Aemon is up and running and doing well with his work). Any ideas? My boss has also insinuated that I am being ageist because I am having a hard time thinking of work for Aemon, but I don’t think that’s really fair – I would struggle with thinking of a job for ANYONE who has a completely unrelated skill set, who doesn’t want to use a computer much, and who has nixed the other non-screen-heavy tasks I have suggested.

    1. Pollygrammer*

      I would be way more than a “bit” resentful about this. If your boss makes any kind of suggestion that you’re being ageist, I think you need to lay out a plain “I’ve suggested X, X, and X and gotten Y response from Aemon.” You’ve offered plenty of stuff for him to do and he’s turned it down. Your boss is being a jackass.

    2. fposte*

      The hell? You had to cancel your vacation to train somebody who doesn’t want to look at a computer screen? Aemon’s contribution to the business are being driven by what he wants to do and not what the business needs, but he doesn’t seem to want to do anything?

      Is this job otherwise great? Because this sounds pretty horrible, and I would at least contemplate doing some job-hunting.

      On the what-do-you-do-right-now side, I’d ask Aemon to outline some objectives for himself. If it’s about what Aemon wants, then he should say what he wants, not just get to veto stuff. Then you can talk about how they might be achieved. (But I’d still be shopping around.)

    3. anon 4 this*

      Not to put too fine a point on it, but my only idea is to find a new job. This is BANANAS. You had to cancel your vacation because your boss wants you to make up a job for an unqualified person he is hiring as a favor? That’s beyond.
      But anyway…
      I would make up a list of all the tasks that are typically performed day-to-day, cross out the ones that he is against, and then show your boss that the only things left are like “filing” and “making coffee” and see how he reacts.

    4. MTUMoose*

      Don’t get over focused on field. Focus on skills; i.e. are they good at problem solving or artistic work or pattern recognition. Maybe finding a skill that could be transferred would help. Another idea would be competitor research.
      Find competitor products, figure out what makes them work, document differences. Lot’s of different things there.
      Hope this helps.

    5. junipergreen*

      OOF! This is rough.

      I agree that going to your boss with a list of what you’ve offered up AND what Aemon has rejected is important. Make your boss go through this process with you, and be pushy about having this conversation. I bet the boss is embarrassed/frustrated at having committed to this favor for Aemon and is trying to leave you with the responsibility, but it’s really not your problem to solve.

    6. Mrs_Helm*

      I would ask Aemon for specifications – what he can/cannot do in what amounts. Maybe give him some categories to work with. Then I would try to come up with 3 different “jobs” that fit those AND consider how to do the training and measure success. Sometimes people need to see that there is NOT a better option – these are your choices, and feel like THEY have made the choice. (Works great with kids/teens too.) If he won’t accept any of those, take that back to your boss as proof of “Aemon doesn’t actually want to work”. If he does, he has also agreed to the measurement of success.

    7. Mike C.*

      Have the company buy a subscription to several high end daily newspapers, not garbage like USA Today but Financial Times, NYT, WaPo, LA Times, local major papers and a few more international ones as well. His job is now to read them and be prepared to answer questions about what he’s read (questions you’ll never bother asking).

      You’re intellectually stimulating him, it doesn’t require a computer, you don’t have to train him to read. Go and enjoy your vacation.

      (And f*ck your boss. If he wanted to give a no-show job to someone, that’s up to him. Making you detail it like this is bullsh!t).

    8. DaniCalifornia*

      Not cool about canceling your vacation. Not cool at all.

      I would outline roles he could take on that the company actually needs, what it entails, what he’d need to learn. And then let him choose. If he chooses none of them you can tell your boss ‘I gave him 3-4 choices of roles we really do need and he chose none. How would you like me to proceed?’ I think if you got push back to make something up that pleases everybody but is actually impossible…well perhaps in the meantime you can dust off the resume? This whole scenario sounds ridiculous.

  56. AnalysisParalysis*

    Has anyone’s employer moved away from performance-based pay increases? Mine has announced that they will only do cost-of-living moving forward, and I’m not quite loving it. Trying to keep an open mind and avoid my instinctual CHANGE IS BAD reaction, so I’d love to hear anyone’s experiences with this.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Although I would benefit from performance pay increases, I appreciate what my organization does:

      1) Raises based on market adjustments (not cost-of-living; they do an annual market review and adjust each role’s “target salary” accordingly; employees are paid a percentage of the target pay ranging from 90%-110% based on experience).

      2) Performance bonuses between 1% and 5% of your salary, based on your annual review.

      3) Extra 401k contributions (from the organization) based on the performance of the organization’s endowment investments. We don’t always get these; in down years there is no extra payment.

      I appreciate this — even though, as a high performer, I would benefit from performance raises — because it’s rational and equitable.

      Salaries are based on the value of a role to the organization, and we don’t end up with someone who has been in a role for 20 years (of which we have many! folks stay here a long time) making an absurdly high salary for the role. (Because, let’s face it, there’s a limit to how valuable a given role is. No matter how well someone in my role performs the value of my role is never going to be $200k.)

      At the same time, I’m still rewarded my performance. — just not in a way that compounds every year.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Realistically, if your pay lags behind market rate, then they’re just ensuring higher turnover. But that’s an issue everywhere.

    3. Shannon*

      It’s not change is bad, it’s a butthead move.

      At an Old Job they were suffering financially. Before they sold off my part of the corporation we were told something similar: yearly raises were going to 1% for cost of living, nothing based on performance. This announcement came a few weeks after my review, where I was told I was a top performer and we discussed ways I can advance in the company. My performance dropped after the new year. Why give 200% when I’m measured the same as someone giving 80%?

      In your case, it may be time to start looking around. Maybe the pay and benefits are good enough that you can ride it out but sooner than later it will catch up to them.

      1. BRR*

        This is exactly what I was thinking. Only giving COL raises basically wipes out incentive to go above and beyond.

        1. Lison*

          It’s a problem where i work now in that people in rice sculpture refuse to do more than the minimum because even if they do the third sculptor says they will not do more without performance related pay and the ones who tried harder still get the same increase so after a year or two why would they? In a previous union job there were set COL increases but the manager could bump you up the scale (in increments) if you did more than the minimum or just leave you waiting until you were there enough years to get to the next bit of the scale. They were very conscious of having the proof that one person deserved the bump in increments over the one who didn’t get anything extra. It worked okay.

    4. Sometimes yes, sometimes no*

      Performance-based increases exist because rewarding performance is how they ensure great performance. By moving to COL adjustments alone, they are missing a really big incentive for their employees to keep pushing. They’re also limiting themselves to the current market plus 1-3% year over year, which disadvantages the company against any other competitor that isn’t artificially locking salaries like this.

      What they’re essentially telling you is that they have no money, don’t foresee making more money, and this is a last-ditch cost-saving effort to maintain the office until they can find that new revenue stream/investment/influx of cash.

      All that without even knowing what they consider cost of living. 1%? 3%? Pegged to the COL rates for housing in your area? I suspect it is on the low end of any of that, which means you’re also likely losing to inflation.

      And they didn’t explain anything about their reasons? At least try to help employees understand why they were losing a perk, get employees on board for pushing hard through tough times?

      I think it’s time to start looking.

    5. A username for this site*

      One place I worked was very heavy in part-time employees (as in, the average department had 2 full time staff and 20-25 part-timers) switched to broad-based COLA raises based on the entire site’s fiscal performance. The idea was that it was incredibly time consuming for the 1 department director to have to write 25 or more performance evaluations each year for people whose job descriptions were simple. It had also been set up that only active staff got performance evaluations, so seasonal employees didn’t get evaluated or raises unless their boss was responsible enough to manually adjust it when they reactivated.

      The only problem we really had with this was that there were 2-3 “leadership” positions that were allocated to part-timers, while there were 2-3 “warm body” positions that were allocated to full time positions. So the full-time “Llama Lookouts” who just sat and made sure the llamas didn’t get eaten by wolves would get a performance evaluation, but the part-time “Llama Trainers” who did considerably more high-level work weren’t evaluated.

      I moved away before I saw this all shake out long term, but the company was having mass walkouts of middle management so it couldn’t have ended any worse than it already was.

    6. Mike C.*

      Sometimes CHANGE IS BAD is a good response.

      So I hope you’ll enjoy never having to meet a standard higher than “not getting myself fired”, never being rewarded for good work and getting almost no raises in general.

    7. OldJules*

      I want to share some perspective as a practitioner.

      The reason why some org has moved to this model is because with 3% merit budget, it’s hard to differentiate an average performer and a strong performer. Especially when the bucket is given straight across board.

      If I have 3 strong performers, I have a budget bucket of 3% a piece, I don’t have room to move unless TPTB allows me to overspend, which is not common. Next cube over, they see a team of average performer who also gets 3% of merit and wondered ‘WTH? We rocked it this year, why didn’t we get anything more then those people?’ Or even better, since I don’t have a poor performer, I’d reward my average performer with 2.5% and my overachiever with 3.5%. Because my rockstar will keep on rocking with just 1% more merit than Joe Average.

      Because there are a lot of grouses of 3% isn’t even a real merit, more like a COLA complaints, some org finally say, ‘Let’s not waste our HR team’s time on a merit which takes a lot of work, and instead just apply the across the board COLA. Problem solved.’

      PS: This is why I’m not a fan of ‘trendy’ moves. Because trends change in cycles. It never ends if you follow the trend and not stick to what works best for the organization specifically.

  57. Blue*

    Ok, this seems like a silly thing to ask about, but…how do you get to know people in a new job? I work at a university, so I’m in a building with a lot of people, but so far I’ve barely interacted with anyone outside my small unit. There are only three of us, and while the other two people are very nice and I like working with them so far, one of them is a faculty member and frequently out of the office, and the other is about three decades older than me and seems very focused on work.

    Almost everyone else on this floor is on the same team, and they interact/socialize a lot. I’m struggling to break into that. My work is separate from theirs so I don’t have work reasons to insert myself into their days. When I pass them in the hall, they’re usually mid-conversation with each other and generally don’t acknowledge me beyond smiling or saying good morning. They’re also in a busy period, so they’re often in meetings and when they are around, they’re working pretty frantically and I don’t want to interrupt. Plus I’m extremely introverted, so I tend to keep to myself in environments where I don’t know anyone.

    In my previous position, I was on a much larger team and fielded a lot of questions from colleagues, so my day was broken up with short interactions with friendly humans and I didn’t realize how much I relied on that until it wasn’t there anymore. Any thoughts?

    1. Murphy*

      I have no advice, but I feel your pain! I’m also at a university and I’m a team of one, so I’m alone all day. All of the other sub-units in my area are teams, so pretty much everyone else is social. Outside of weekly meetings with my boss, most of my work-related interactions are via email, and my social interactions are the smallest of small talk. It sucks :(

    2. Mrs Pitts*

      I was a new person a couple of years ago. I introduced myself to everyone; at the copier, at the fridge, etc. I would ask about them as well. “How long have you been here?” “Do you have a favorite nearby lunch spot?” Etc. Eventually I started to figure out who was my speed. It definitely is a process.

    3. blink14*

      I’m in a similar situation at my university department – 3 people, one of whom I have little in common with and the other who is much older than me. I’m also pretty introverted and keep to myself a lot.

      I would suggest going to workshops or open events on campus where you may meet people, especially events for your division or related divisions. I’ve made some friends just from running into them several times at events and meetings. Do you have a break room or kitchen that people gather in? I prefer to each lunch alone, but in my old space that was shared by multiple departments, I consistently had lunch with the same people a couple of times a week.

      Some of this is also just going to take time – continue to say hi to the other people on your floor, build relationships with contacts outside your division by calling them, attend meetings and events. You might find an ally at a similar position in a different department who you interact with a lot. Eventually you’ll start to build up a group of people who you can socialize with and feel like you know more people.

      1. JS#2*

        I agree– this is just going to take time. Sometimes when I’m in the common area, I’ll casually ask folks about their work–what they do, what they’re working on, etc. It helps me (1) understand better how the university runs, and (2) get to know what’s important to the people around me. (People are generally happy to talk about their work.)

        I really try to go to open events when I can, and if i know it’s an event others would like (based on the above conversations), I’ll invite one or two people to go with me. I’ve found that people like going to those open events in groups. Even if they decline, they’ll appreciate that you thought of them and took the time to invite them.

  58. licoricepencil*

    Weird question- In my last week of work at OldJob, it happened to be the first week of a pay period. My final paycheck came through today, and I’ve been paid as if I worked a full pay period, and my remaining PTO wasn’t paid out. It looks like a normal paycheck I would have gotten had I still been working there. Obviously, I want to tell OldJob that this happened so that I maintain my good reference, but how do I title that email subject? Any help appreciated, thanks!

    1. Bacon Pancakes*

      I would title it “Final Payout” and ask about all of that. If they paid you improperly and require reimbursement (my employer would, regardless of whose fault it is) you are also required to pay back all the contributions.
      I would be more concerned with making sure that my pay is correct so I am not paying a job for leaving than worried about screwing up a reference because of their payroll error.

      1. licoricepencil*

        Well obviously I’m worried about that too. My reason for phrasing it that way is that my former HR/Payroll person can be a bit prickly, and I’m worried about sending them this message letting them know they’ve made this big error.

        1. Blue*

          Is this person your former manager? If not and you had a good relationship with your former supervisor, you might loop them in and see if they can help sort it out.

        2. BRR*

          The good news, you don’t work with them anymore (!). So there’s not much to lose by saying, hey I noticed my last paycheck included a week of pay for when I wasn’t an employee and didn’t include a payout for my unused vacation time. What do we need to do to fix this?

      2. A username for this site*

        When I left a job, I got my pay on schedule for that pay period, and then the PTO payout the following pay period. If you’re really worried, you could wait and then ask.

    2. blink14*

      How much were you supposed to be paid for PTO? It’s possible that it equals the amount of days that would finish out the full pay period, and they just decided to go that route.

      Also, does your company have a policy of paying out PTO?

  59. MemoBlast NoMore*

    When my boss is presented with an issue, he will often – if the issue revolves around a policy infraction – email or memo blast everyone. And it doesn’t really seem to get through to the person it is intended for.
    Is there a way to point out to my boss that if Yolinda brings her dog to the office or Fergus dowsn’t clean his trash out of the pool vehicles that the rest of us don’t need to be reprimanded and it is more effective to speak one-on-one to the offender rather than reminding the rest of us what the policy is?
    In case you haven’t guessed, my boss is does not like confrontation. I am looking for scripts to encourage him in this matter or internal scripts for myself to help me get over it.
    Thank you!

    1. Oogie*

      Ugh. That happens at my job and it makes me crazy! On the flip side though, I discussed an error with an employee one on one and got reported for “singling her out”. She made the error, who else should I talk to? Lol. I think people are so sensitive now and many can’t handle direct feedback and that’s why this happens.

  60. BigGlasses*

    Any tips on what to say in a cover letter when you’ve been out of ‘your field’/professional work for a while and working something like retail but really want to get back into a professional job? My husband has been living abroad with me, did a graduate degree, then was unemployed, then worked retail, and we’ve finally decided it’s unsustainable and he’s moved back to the US (unemployed) in hopes of a better job market/better job search. I think he’s having trouble writing something concise and compelling in a cover letter that encourages people to give him ‘another chance’ in a field he only has 2 degrees and a couple years experience in, followed by a ~4 year gap. We were in an english speaking country which I think might make ‘time abroad’ seem less of an achievement/less exciting but it also seems like there should be some way to spin it as good life experience.

  61. Hey-eh*

    A recruiter reached out to me to discuss an opportunity. I’ve never been contacted by a recruiter, and I’m not really looking to leave my job but my annual review is coming up soon so I thought it would be a good opportunity to find out what’s out there. I don’t know what the company is, just where they’re located and the position that’s open. What can I expect in this initial call?

    1. irene adler*

      To see if you possess the skill set their client is looking for.
      Recruiter may or may not have an understanding of the job beyond key skill words. So be prepared for either circumstance.
      They will also want to know how interested you are in making a job change.

  62. Neosmom*

    Hooray! Earlier this year I was asked to stuff envelopes with bonus checks for salaried employees. I am salaried and there was no check for me (I’ve been with the company more than 30 months). So, I filed that information away and asked at my April annual review what I needed to do to qualify for the bonus program. No good answers, so I let it drop.

    Yesterday, my boss tells me that starting in 2019 I will be included in the bonus program for salaried employees. Thank you, AAM community, for the questions and responses that led to my appropriate reaction and, ultimately, my inclusion in the bonus program.

  63. peachie*

    Gah, sorry to double post, but I could use a bit of advice: how early can you start applying for entry-level jobs

    This is for my partner, not me. Due to two other short-term jobs he has, he won’t be able to start work until August 20. He’s also out of town for job #1 until the end of this month, so he would be available for a phone interview but not an in-person interview until then. He then has one week off during which he could do in-person interviews, then two weeks of work, then he’s free.

    That was probably too much schedule information, haha. I just wasn’t sure what to tell him! And is there any way he should address his availability if he’s applying to stuff in the next week or two?

    1. Ali G*

      He should just start applying now. There is little chance that an in-person interview would come up in the next 2 weeks. During the initial phone interview they will probably ask his availability and he can tell them then.

      1. peachie*

        Thank you! My thoughts were about the same (the worst that can happen is you say “I’m not free until a month from now” and they say “no thanks,” right?) but I wasn’t sure if I was correct on that.

    2. Shannon*

      He can start now. Conservatively, he applies this week, phone screening next week, schedule in person the week after. But hiring can be a lot slower than that.

  64. Water issues*

    I would love to get opinions on what happened here this week. The city I work in had a huge water main break. Many places didn’t have water at all including my employer. A state of emergency was declared, first reports said that the entire city might run out of water and that it might take days to repair. On day 1, we were told it was “up to us” on whether we wanted to work. This would mean working without running water/working toilets. Almost everyone left. Important note: there is no working from home at any level in my company. Day 2, we were told that hourly would not come in, but that all salaried (exempt and non-exempt) would be expected to work. Still no running water or working toilets. Thankfully, the repair only took 2 days and by day 3 we had running water again.

    Here has been the debate: should we be paid if we chose not to work on day 1? Many people that went home felt like they were going to be paid and not have PTO deducted. (I personally don’t believe that we should have been coming in at all until the water was restored, but that’s a different argument.)

    1. Mediamaven*

      It sounds like they said it’s up to you – which I would feel implied that by electing not too, you wouldn’t be paid. Like, who would elect to work if you were going to get paid for not working? They should have been more clear though.

    2. you don't know me*

      If they said it was up to you, that implies they weren’t planning to pay you if you left. However, I’m pretty sure access to clean water and working toilets is a requirement for a workplace. At the very least I’m sure OSHA or your local health department would have something to say about forcing people to work in these conditions. The media would probably eat it up too if you want to go that route.

    3. OhBehave*

      OSHA requires that an employer have potable water and working restrooms. Employees should report such outages to OSHA. I personally feel you should be paid for those days you were out due to lack of water.

  65. NicoleK*

    Once you’ve lost respect for some i.e. coworker, boss, and etc. How do you regain the respect? Is it possible?

    1. AdminX2*

      That’s kinda vague. Not usually. Depends on the context, if they change or address it.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      If you’ve lost the respect of others, then you need to change whatever caused the issue, and be consistent, for a long time. Eventually, they will begin to respect you again.

      If you have lost respect for someone else, then THEY need to make changes, and be consistent, for a long time. Eventually you will begin to respect them again.

    3. Whatsinaname*

      The reason I would lose respect for someone I work for or with is usually based on their lack of ethical behavior. And since that is ingrained in a person’s value system, my answer would be ‘no’. People who behave unethically rarely change.

  66. AdminX2*

    Gah!! Partner works at a teaching center where he sits for long periods and hates being hot. Last summer he wore a skirt- after confirming it was ok in the dress code. This year he got a very pricy but boring kilt. Grandboss makes a comment to center director who passes it on about not wearing it- which makes partner feel bad for having to point out it’s completely within dress code (and a bit personally hurt because he did check to make sure and enjoyed wearing something for his heritage). To be petty- partner was wearing a tie while grandboss was NOT even though that IS specified.

    I went on a whole supportive rant about how AAM would agree how awful and counter productive it is to do those stupid pointless “I’m the boss things.”

    1. Hey-eh*

      I think it’s pretty awesome that he was wearing a kilt and a shirt and tie! It’s pretty silly that skirts are okay but shorts are not. My office is pretty business casual and I (a female) have worn shorts a couple times now and a few people have commented on how unusual it is to see people wearing shorts at the office. The shorts were longer than some of the skirts I own!!

    2. Pollygrammer*

      Unfortunately, work dress codes aren’t like school dress codes, where you have to obey the letter of the law but within that anything goes.

      If a grandboss doesn’t want you wearing something, pointing out that it’s not explicitly forbidden on paper isn’t really going to do you much good. Confirming with the dress code is not the same as confirming with a superior.

      1. AdminX2*

        This is true, but the fact that he wore a skirt last year with no issue is what makes it maddening now.

    3. only acting normal*

      Grandboss may be within his rights to nix the kilt, but he’s a damn fool for doing so. I work with two men who occasionally wear kilts and they look great.

  68. Ali G*

    I have a phone interview on Tuesday! I am really excited about this position.
    I have yet to be able to convert phone to in person. I’ve only had three – the first one I was really late in the process for a competitive position and I think I just wasn’t able to wow them enough to add me to their short list. Second one was with a recruiter who was looking for a 4 month commitment and I couldn’t do that because I wanted a full time, perm job. The last one went well, but I think they probably had people more directly related to their position, even though I had a lot of related experience in a slightly different field (like they were looking for an expert llama breeder and I had great experience in emu breeding).
    Anywoo, I am determined to ace this one. I am talking with the Director of HR for 30 min. I’ve read (and reread) all of Alison’s posts on phone interviews, but there always seems to be a question that trips me up. For example, on my last one, I was asked “what is the biggest misperception people have of you?” Um, I dunno, I can’t read their minds!!
    So, in addition to prepping for all the regular stuff*, does anyone have any questions you have gotten that have tripped you up?
    Also, how do you answer the “tell us about yourself” question? Do you keep it professional, or do you dabble in a little personal stuff too? I want to get this down to 5 sentences or less.
    *Regular stuff:
    What uniquely qualifies you for this role?
    Why do you want this job/work for this org?
    Why did you leave your previous position/want to leave current one?
    What are your salary requirements? (for once I am not too worried about this. It’s a non-profit and so I know what the previous person in this role was making from the 990 so I can come up with a sufficiently broad range that encompasses that number)
    What is your availability?
    Others?
    Thanks for all your help!!

    1. peachie*

      Phone interviews are tough! I’m not an expert, but here are my thoughts:

      1) Re: questions that trip you up: I think it’s always okay to take a minute to answer! I think it’s also okay to say something like “Hm, I can’t think of anything in particular, but [segue].” For example, on a “misperception” type question (which is a weird question), I’d probably say something like “I do try to be forthcoming and honest in my work interactions as I’ve found it

      2) “Tell us about yourself”: I would write a few sentences before hand (like, literally write) so you can just read it off. It’s a hard question to answer! I generally try to frame it as, If I had to write a short synopsis for my resume, what would it be?

      3) “Why do you want to work here?”: I try to think of how I’d tell a friend about the job (assuming it IS something you’re reasonably interested in) and then polish that up into something professional-sounding.

      4) “Why do you want to leave your current job?”: I always phrase this in a positive way–that is, talking about how I’m excited about the opportunities this new job presents rather than why the old place isn’t working. I also throw in a “While I’ve enjoyed my job at [current place]…” (assuming that’s plausibly true).

      And some general thoughts:

      5) Smile when you talk! I think you have to go a little extra on the “friendliness” aspect when it’s a phone interview, since it’s much harder to pick up tone/vibe over the phone.

      6) I’m sure you do this, but write out all your notes and questions ahead of time. It’s so easy to forget things when you’re on the spot, and the advantage of a phone interview is you can refer to your notes as much as you need without looking inattentive.

      Good luck on the interview!!

      1. Blue*

        These are some good points! But I will caution against having all your notes in front of you if there’s any chance you’ll end up reading directly from them or if you’re likely to end up with big pauses while you’re frantically skimming through to find the relevant info. I personally like to write out answers to standard questions and practice saying them and to practice talking about a number of key projects I’ve worked on things – things that might come up in a “tell me about a time…” type question. For the actual phone interview itself, the only notes I keep in front of me are a bulleted list of tasks/projects/examples so that if I’m drawing a blank, I can glance at it and hopefully spark my memory. I usually don’t have to use them, but it’s a nice security blanket!

        Other thoughts:
        – Definitely aim for some animation in your voice, whether you accomplish it by smiling or not. I once interviewed someone over the phone who droned on in a horribly dull monotone then said, “I hope you can tell by the tone of my voice how exciting I find…” and my boss had to frantically hit the mute button before we both cracked up.
        – Practice being concise and keep an eye on the clock! You’ll have to keep yourself from rambling since you don’t have their “wrap it up” body language to cue you.
        – I do keep my “tell me about yourself” response strictly professional. I have some twists in my career path, and I usually use this as an opportunity to contextualize those choices. It always seems to be well-received.

        Good luck!!

        1. peachie*

          That’s a good point! The “notes” advice changes from person to person, I’m sure–I’d be much more stressed in a phone interview where I didn’t have a doc open on my computer wherein I compiled all the information/reminders I might need, but I can see how that could be distracting and limiting as well.

  69. Shark Whisperer*

    I just got a new job! Woo! But I need some advice. This is my first completely office job after working for 8 years out in the field. Does anyone have some good advice on
    a) transitioning from field work to office work?
    b) working at a government office for a government contractor?

    Many thanks in advance!

    1. AdminX2*

      Watch and ask about the standards. “So is there a standard for that?” “So what’s the standard for lunches?” Ask a few people in a few levels in a few departments. Play it super safe until you get a sense of rhythm.

    2. Brownie*

      For b) Watch, listen, learn from others’ examples of what’s acceptable/standard, and don’t talk about politics/religion/other polarizing topics or get involved with complaining sessions if at all possible. There may not be any dress code written down, but there will be a non-written one, and only people who’ve been there for more than a couple years will know its details. If there’s a benefits office or new hire office take full advantage of them to find out about your new 401k, medical, FMLA, and other benefits. Specifically ask your boss for a list of policies and procedures you’re expected to be familiar with; this is usually things like security, how to request PTO, why “salaried” means you’re still expected to put exactly 40 hours on each week’s time sheet and no more, things like that. It’s a far more staid environment than private was for me, but on the upside I see a lot more core professionalism now than I ever did in the private sector.

    3. you don't know me*

      I’ve had two government jobs and they were completely different. At one they would clock our time down to the minute and every minute had better be accounted for. Also, every single thing we did was recorded and monitored at all times and reviewed often. There was a written procedure for everything.
      At the other one, its much more relaxed. Come and go as you please so long as the work gets done. And no one’s going to babysit you to make sure you did it right so it better be right before it gets to the end user. Which had a bit of a learning curve in the beginning because there are no official procedures and very little gets written down.
      Like any new job, pay attention to what is happening around you and learn the standards from the people who have been there awhile.

    4. BF*

      1) if you are the contractor, be very clear of what exactly is in your scope of work and how much wiggle room that SOW has. Some things are easy to do, some thing require a mod to the contract. And there is rarely a logic of which is which.

      2) Check the rules on how the contractors relate to the government staff. There are very specific rules about who can give directions to who and who can approve work etc.
      I am a government contractor who sits in a gvmnt office. I design erosion control projects, but the folks who execute the projects, (the equipment operators, the field techs, etc) work for a different company, which means I can not tell them what to do, even though I did the design work. There are also gvmnt equipment operators. I can (sort of ) direct some of them since they work for my contract manager. There are others that I have to go through several layers of management to meet with, since their boss is a stickler for protocols and hierarchy. While I can only take directions from certain people.

  70. Passed Over*

    I’ve been at my company for over 5 years. Last year I was taking on more projects that required building a temporary team, managing budgets and timelines, and tracking the work, you know basic project management stuff. I asked my manager if the company would consider sponsoring me for a PMP (Project Management Professional) certificate. I was denied, but never really got a good answer to why.

    The other day I found out a colleague who is at the same level but with less tenure was sponsored for the PMP, but it was kept a secret. He’s clearly being tapped for management, and I can’t help but feel slighted.

    Also last year, I was passed over for a promotion in favor of someone new to our team but with more experience overall. That person is now my manager, while all of my other colleagues report to my former manager. It felt like a slap in the face.

    How would you feel if this happened to you? Would you start job searching?

    1. AdminX2*

      That would suck. Yes to searching. And I’d like to be able to address it directly listing out the accomplishments and creating an explicit career development plan.

    2. Temperance*

      I would absolutely start job searching, and I would have a frank talk with my manager about why they are sponsoring Fergus for the same certification that you requested, and what you can do to move into management.

      1. Ciara Amberlie*

        I agree. But I would add that I would try to go into that talk with my manager with a open mind. You employer might be treating you badly, but there may be legitimate reasons why your colleagues are getting opportunities that you aren’t. They might be performing better or have other experience that you aren’t aware of. If that is the case, try to be open to the feedback and use it positively.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      I’d ask what skills I needed to improve in order to get on the path I want.

      If there’s no good answer, then I’d job hunt.

    5. Gumby*

      Why does your company need to sponsor you? Do you just want them to pay the fees for the test? For the formal project management education classes? Because if you are willing to pay for all of that yourself (and yes, it can get expensive) I don’t see how your company needs to agree at all. I had not heard that they verify your experience with your employer(s). (I haven’t gotten to actually applying for the test yet. Still trying to build up the 4,500 hours.)

      Would starting with a CAPM be easier?

  71. Anon-a-Llama*

    So I’m well aware that my question today is going to make me sound really petty. I started my current job around the same time as my coworker, Sam. We work in a pretty dysfunctional office, so we’ve become “partners in crime” so to speak. We are each others go to people whenever we need to vent about work, life, etc and we have a really good working relationship. We are also similar in age and stages of life compared to our other coworkers (who are older, married with kids, etc), so I have an easier time relating to him. Both Sam and I are in the process of job searching. I have been applying and interviewing for positions since the beginning of the calendar year, Sam has been applying for maybe a month. We’re both looking to relocate to the same metropolitan area, so we’re applying for a lot of the same jobs. Sam recently got an interview for a position we both applied for. I did not get called to interview. Sam had told me multiple times that he isn’t sure that he even wants to work for this office/company. I would LOVE to work for this company (I have applied for several jobs there).

    Here’s the problem, Sam has dumb luck when it comes to these kinds of things. We’ve compared our past job search experiences, and it’s almost always worked out that I had to search for a longer period of time and applied to significantly more jobs than he did. For example, this year I’ve already applied to 40 jobs since January/February, he has applied to maybe 2-4 in the past month. I have this gut feeling that he’s going to get called back for a second interview and get the job. Despite Sam’s reservations about the office, I know he’s itching to leave (as am I) so I think he’s likely to take the job anyway. I was also knee deep in an interview process this past spring that unfortunately didn’t pan out. As a result, I missed applications that came up during our industries peak hiring time. So my search has slowed down significantly. I’ve also been trying (to varying degrees of success) to cope with the stress and negative personal feelings that this bad job search experience has brought up. I’m resigning myself to probably being in this job through the end of the calendar year (if I’m lucky) or potentially even until next summer.

    Here’s where I get petty… if this happens I know I’m not going to be able to contain my jealousy over the fact that his search was so easy compared to mine and that he gets to leave our office (and work for a company I really want to work for). I will also be a little upset because working here will be a lot different for me given that I just don’t relate to my other coworkers. I’m pretty confident that he will be replaced with someone who is older and mid-career, despite the entry level nature of our work (we’ve both been told repeatedly that it was unusual for our office to hire two people in their mid-twenties). This is based on the emphasis that was placed on hiring someone with “experience” during the most recent hiring process (in our industry, “I want someone experienced” is sometimes a thinly veiled way of saying “I don’t want someone in their 20’s”). Given that I already don’t like working here, this will probably make my experience here worse.

    If this does happen, I want to be happy for him but I really don’t know how I’m going to be able to put my feelings aside to do that. Has anyone experienced something similar with a coworker (either a close work friend leaving or feelings of jealousy when you’re essentially competing with a coworker for similar goals)? Or has also gone through a really difficult, long, and unsuccessful job search process and had to cope with that? Really advice to alleviate one of these things would be helpful!

    1. AdminX2*

      If he’s a friend, just be honest. “I’m so happy for you, and so envious!” You can be both, and envious just means you want what you want, not that you want to take it from him. He knows you want out. Maybe ask if you can compare interview notes and polish some of your stuff?

    2. Embarassed and anon*

      If he is having a much easier time job searching, it may be worth while to ask if he is willing to look over your resume and cover letter. He may just be lucky but he may have some useful insights.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 on the review!

        Also, deep breaths and don’t mention the envy. You don’t have to share every feeling, and it’s just too easy for that comment to come across wrong.

    3. Pancakes*

      I totally understand your feelings – it can be really hard to see friends get opportunities that you want! It sucks to want to be happy for someone but to also feel jealous!
      One thing that may help you feel better is that if he does get the job he will be someone in your network with an “in” at that company! He might be able to help you with future applications, let you know about openings, or pass your resume along.

    4. Super Anon*

      I’m going through something kind of similar. I work in a terribly managed company. My team members and I are more or less the same age and we all hate our jobs. I’ve been job hunting on-and-off since February. Unfortunately, recurring health problems have kind of halted my progress. In the past 3 months, 6 members of my team have all moved onto bigger and better opportunities. Even though I know taking care of my health is important, I can’t help but feel really “behind”, so to speak. I have had two interviews for good job opportunities, but they didn’t go anywhere, so I feel inadequate.

  72. Jennifleurs*

    I’d just like to know if it’s irrational that i’m still kind of upset about this.

    Ok, so back in November at OldJob I arranged with my mum to go up with her to help my grandfather, who had rung and asked for help with my grandmother who has dementia. This was fairly short notice. Needed Thursday and Friday off.

    At work, I was the cover/substitute/etc for our social media guy, and I knew that he had Friday afternoon booked off. Our department unwritten rule was that we couldn’t both be off at the same time. But I really felt like this was important, so I spent some time before I went in that morning thinking of ways to cover literally everything (I could do most of it from my phone, he had already scheduled weekend posts anyway, I could teach my assistant/junior person how to upload any new promotional material)

    And to cut a long story short my boss refused to let me take the day, on the grounds that “it would set a bad precedent for other people”, and when the social media guy and I kept trying to show that we had all the bases covered, the boss just told us to stop bitching and moaning and walked off.

    Social media guy cancelled his half day so that I could have it, and we both agreed manager was unreasonable??? Manager knew why I wanted to take the holiday and just seemed to think that “but other people might want to go on holiday at the same time as their covers???” was the most important reason.

    Like, I know that he was technically 100% in the right because he was just following the rule (which btw isn’t written anywhere) but I just felt so ignored and dismissed. (I did cry, ngl) I didn’t trust him or like him after that. Opinions? :(

    1. Not Maeby But Surely*

      I think you’re justified in being bothered by that. It seems awfully cold-hearted, especially since the social media guy agreed that you had your bases covered. Sorry your boss did that to you! The only way I could see boss’s point is if you had a history of calling out on short notice, or had only been there two weeks, but even then… it’s an important family issue! Sometimes stuff happens.

    2. AdminX2*

      Read the letter about the employer who wouldn’t let their employee off for graduation. It’s true boss’ can have a larger perspective, but life requires flexibility and recognizing an exception can be an exception. He burned his trust in you and you are gone.

    3. you don't know me*

      Rules can be bent or broken. Your boss was being unreasonable. It’s not like you wanted off to go to the beach or some other fun activity. I can see why this would change your feeling about him.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      Actually… on-site coverage is normal in time-sensitive roles (eg, weekend updates), and the boss is not completely unreasonable to stick to that. Teaching your assistant with a short time before you want to leave them alone? Not a safe plan. ‘Stop bitching and moaning’ was not a professional reaction, but I think you’re underplaying the importance of the short lead time and no experienced backup in place.

      But what you can do is look at how to address this for the future. Teach your assistant now, and get them on board as a third ‘cover’. Maybe you can set up a regular schedule with your mom so that you can plan well in advance.

      I’m sorry about your granddad

      1. Lison*

        Nope, what would they have done if the employee was not available due to being caught up in a bank robbery or kidnapped? They would have made it work. This is the same thing, if the company doesn’t have back up plans that is on them not the employee who has only one chance to show their respect to their loved one.

    5. soupmonger*

      I think you’re being a bit precious about this. If there’s a rule in place which means staff and their cover staff can’t be off together, then you can try to push back on this, which you did, and got refused. Sounds as if you kept on pushing, and pissed your boss off.

      Yes, rules can be broken or bent but remember breaking work rules sets precedents which can come back to bite the boss. Stop whinging, is my take. You dealt with the situation between the two of you, didn’t you?

    6. Kathenus*

      My boss is very much like this, decisions frequently made with an eye on how something could be misused or go wrong in the future if a certain thing is approved. No advice, just empathy.

      1. soupmonger*

        And that’s exactly what a boss needs to do. They don’t do it specifically to annoy their staff – they do it because if they make an exeption for one staff member, then there’s every chance other staff will want the same thing. As a boss, that creates more work and angst for everyone.

  73. Pregnanon*

    Feeling a little — guilty, I guess? — about the timing of my pregnancy. Assuming all goes well, I will be due the month that my coworker (the only person in my department/location that does the job that I do) retires. I think my nerves about it are compounded because as far as anyone who knows me knows, DH and I’ve never wanted kids. We actually changed our mind about it last year, but there was never a good opportunity to correct the record, so to speak. I don’t think it will hurt my career in any way, and Employer has always been supportive of mothers-to-be, but I’ve developed a strong loyalty to my company over the years and I can’t help but feel like I’m inadvertently screwing them. I try not to dwell on it, but with hormones all over the place it’s easier said than done.

    1. AdminX2*

      You know it’s irrational, so just hold onto that. People have lives. Good workplaces support that.

      1. Friday*

        And good people will be happy for you, no matter what work issues will come up in your absence or what you’ve said about wanting/not wanting kids in the past.

        Congratulations!

    2. Anna Canuck*

      Pregnancies happen when they happen. I wanted July babies and have a May and an August. ;) You have to live your life, and no matter what, there is literally nothing you can do about it now. They will be fine, and so will you.

    3. Lison*

      Did you maliciously on purpose make sure it would be the most inconvenience to your employer? If you did (I know you didn’t) then feel guilty. If not then this is a thing that happens you have nothing to feel bad about. Congratulations on your new human.

  74. Stephanie*

    Professional-looking backpack suggestions? So we hot desk in my department, meaning I don’t have a permanently assigned desk. So I have to carry my laptop home every night and the bag I have gets heavy really fast (because I have a bunch of extra stuff in there like a docking station, headset, mouse, etc). And usually, I end up carrying a purse, my laptop bag, my lunch bag and a travel mug in every day.

    Anything people like? I’d like it to look somewhat professional and have good organizational components. Feminine is a plus, but not a requirement. Ideally, I’d like to be able to just carry the backpack and maybe a lunch bag.

    And here I thought I could ditch the backpack after I graduated school…

    1. TheWonderGinger*

      Hmm, maybe consider one of the laptop bags that could double as a carry on and rolls on wheels? Might make it a little easier than lugging multiple totes.

      Otherwise, I think if you just go for a solid black canvas backpack no one will give it much thought, especially if you are in a known commuter area. Or a larger messenger style bag.

    2. Trig*

      Matt and Nat make some nice ones (link in my username).

      I’m not particularly fashion-savvy, but some of them look more like handbags than backpacks to me. ‘Vegan’ leather, so the price isn’t through the roof.

    4. 99 lead balloons*

      My partner and I have backpacks by Peak Design and constantly get compliments on them. They design their stuff w/photographers in mind mostly, but they have removable/adjustable shelves and plenty of other pockets and a laptop sleeve that keeps everything from clumping at the bottom. Mine’s the 20 liter, his is the 30 liter and he carries a similar load to what you describe. They aren’t inexpensive, but the storage configuration options make it totally worth it.

    5. Nanc*

      How about one of those rolling laptop carry on bags? There are some that also convert to backpacks. Might be worth going to an office supply/luggage store to test drive a few.

      Also: Hot desking, grrrrrr!

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, everyone kind of hates it. Especially the employees who have been there 30 years and used to have an office. The office is all new, which is nice (especially since a lot of my company’s offices are kind of decrepit), but it’s annoying to not have an assigned desk. And there aren’t a lot of spaces to have private conversations like performance reviews. Also, everyone just ends up sitting in the same desk anyway, which probably takes away from the point…

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Wait, they didn’t include lockers in the design? So you could leave stuff like a docking station at work?

          1. Stephani*

            We have an assigned drawer. But my drawer is full of parts and a plaque I need to give a supplier. So the laptop barely fits. The docking station is a small one.

        2. ToodieCat*

          And a box of tissues! And my secret stash of Advil and Tums! And my reference books!

          I would hate that. You have my sympathies.

    6. Ally*

      If you’re willing to spend a little more money, Kate Spade has some really nice large bags that are really cute. I have the Haring Lane Kenna (which is actually a yoga bag, but still works really well) and it fits my purse, lunchbox, laptop, keyboard, headphones, and gym clothes/shoes really well. The Watson Lane Lyla is also a similar option. I would also look at baby/diaper bags, there’s a lot of them that look really professional and fit a lot of stuff.

    7. wingmaster*

      I have a Patagonia backpack that also can be used as a tote bag. I love it a lot. I don’t think it’s available on the website, but it’s on REI. (link attached)

      1. Squirreling*

        Lug bags are amazing in configurations and storage, though they do not an explicit laptop section in many cases.

  75. Wat*

    I posted a few weeks back worrying about being a job hopper by leaving a second job back to back in a little over two years for growth reasons in search of a management role (hit the limit where I currently work, no room for promotion in my department, underpaid and feeling stuck) and after some discussion with my director, who is on the way out and whom I trust completely, I think I’m going to start looking to move on, whether within a subsidiary of my company or outside. He says that in this field at this level, 2-2.5 years is a fine tenure and most of his early career was similar. If my review goes well, I’ll ask explicitly about internal options at subsidiaries.

    I’m nervous about leaving a job I ostensibly like, but excited about the new doors a move to a manager role would open. He thinks I’m ready, and that makes me feel confident and encouraged.

    I just hope he’s right about a few short stints being normal at this point in my field…

  76. NewRole*

    About 2 years ago I started with my current company in an entry level position not related to my skill set. Shortly after (3 months to be exact) I received an offer to move to a newly created position on a new team that better fit my education. I had to wait about 3 more months before I could transition, to help train my replacement and get through a peak season. But I was fine with that. The issue has come with my former team showing a bit of frustration with my quick move. I think they resent me a little bit. I didn’t go out seeking a new role, but it may look that way. I’ve been in this role well over a year now, and I’m still getting some resentment with off hand comments here and there. Anyone have any advice?

    1. Chaordic One*

      The situation sucks, but you’re in a better place now and I think that you just need to let the comments roll off your back.

  77. Stuck*

    I’m struggling with a potential new job. I love, LOVE my current job. But this other group reached out to me to ask me if I’d consider moving on. It would be a jump for me – more budget, more staff, more responsibility (double what I make now). All of that sounds good.

    But everything I know about the CEO makes me want to run away and hide. She is known for screaming at people, throwing things, she actively discriminates against POC.

    My new manager would be between me and the CEO, so I wouldn’t have lots of daily interaction with her. I want the money, and I’d love managing the program, but I think the culture might be so toxic that I’ll fail there.

    1. AdminX2*

      If you’re making ends meet, sanity is worth more than money. Unless you have a clear exit plan as a backup.

    2. Bex*

      I would start looking for an option C. If you’re already being approached, then you should be able to find a job that is a step up without having to work for a racist bully!

    3. Earthwalker*

      After a few unfortunate missteps, I made a personal rule to evaluate both my potential new manager and his manager when interviewing. Most bosses can’t fully protect you against an out of control grandboss.

    4. Kathenus*

      I left a job I was happy at for one that looked to have a lot of great aspects, especially location for quality of life, you know the ever popular ‘dream job’. Turned out the boss and I really didn’t see eye to eye on some specific issues that are deal breakers for me, and it imploded within two years. This person wasn’t supposed to be my boss, but the person who was ended up out of the picture unexpectedly, so you can’t predict what might happen. If you love your current job enough to say it twice and with all caps, and you know that you don’t like the CEO of the new one, I wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole, myself. Good luck.

  78. Can't Sit Still*

    I am almost done with my masters! Except the final project is a portfolio that needs to include a 4 page(!) resume and at least 3 forms of recognition or work samples. I’m assuming from the description that they actually want a CV and not a resume, but I’m stumped on the recognition/work samples. Possibilities include letters of recommendation, awards, performance reviews or school work AND it has to be proof of masters level work. My job isn’t one where I produce something that can be placed in a portfolio and it’s been at least 25 years since I’ve received a written letter of recommendation. I’ve received a couple of small spot bonuses in the past year, but those are brief and to the point, e.g. Thanks for your help with ABC Company! Otherwise, my team prefers to give verbal, rather than written praise. My performance review came in the form of a raise letter that detailed my COL increase, my merit increase, my base & merit bonuses, and stock grant. That’s way too much information to submit as part of a portfolio.

    What do I put in this thing? Snarky answers are welcome, too!

    3. Anne (with an “e”)*

      Why don’t you submit a fake performance review of your future self?

    4. epi*

      I would find or create work samples personally. People in my field don’t submit written recommendation letters or testimonials– at least not ones that aren’t confidential from the applicant. Unless your field is unusual in that regard, you wouldn’t be creating a useful portfolio if you included that stuff.

      If you’re allowed to, include coursework examples that are similar to something you would actually be expected to produce at a job. For example if you had to write a paper in the style of an academic journal article, or write a formal project proposal as a final project. Polish those some more or work them into a bigger piece and use that. If you don’t have something like that, create something for a fantasy project that is similar to what you would share from work, if you were the sole author/allowed to share.

      This is how I handled it a few years ago going into my masters program. I needed writing samples both for the degree program application, and when I applied for RA jobs. I had lots of great writing experience but it was on things like academic articles where I wasn’t the sole author, or research plans for ongoing projects that I was not authorized to share. I started a blog where I just wrote about issues in my field that were interesting to me, and came up with a small project idea and wrote a research plan for it. It worked out really well.

      Congratulations on being nearly done! Focus on finishing strong in the way that is most useful for *you*.

  79. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    I’m super proud of myself for speaking up about something icky at work, and the best part is that my company (FINALLY) backed me up this time.

    My Grandboss was promoted to her position earlier this year. Grandboss’s sister worked in my department at the time, so she was transferred to another department as we have rules against having immediate family as reports for managers. Since then we have had an employee survey that revealed extremely low scores around management and leadership, so HR decided to have a “sensing” session with representatives from different departments to get more detailed insight into why we think our company is a giant flaming dumpster fire.

    Well, the department that Grandboss’s sister was transferred to is very small, and so the company decided to merge their department with ours for the sensing session. My department met as a group to talk about what concerns we want our representatives to bring up, and one of the things we discussed was our dissatisfaction with how Grandboss ‘s communication style is terrible, especially compared to old Grandboss, who always kept us looped in appropriately. During this discussion it came out that the representative from smaller department was none other than Grandboss’s sister. The discussion immediately turned to how we shouldn’t bring up problems with Grandboss because her sister might report back to her who said what. I mentioned bringing it up to HR but the whole thing devolved into “They won’t listen to us!” and “This is on purpose she’s a mole!” so I let it go for the moment.

    As soon as the meeting was over I went directly to my manager (who is awesome and one of the only redeeming features of my job at this point) and told her what happened and that I was pretty appalled about Sister being part of our sensing session. She said that she’d brought up the obvious conflict of interest with HR but they waved her concern away because they figured we could all “be professional” despite the sibling relationship. I basically told her that there was no way in hell that anyone was going to risk talking negatively about Grandboss with her freaking sister there, and if they truly wanted honest feedback about how to possibly fix this hellhole they needed to address it.

    Three hours later I got an email from my manager. Sister is no longer part of our sensing session next week. YAAAAASSSSSSSSSS

  80. Embarassed and anon*

    I have developed some health issues that I am currently trying to get diagnosed. I don’t want to get into too much detail, but it has caused me to require frequent (and sometimes long) trips to the bathroom. I have told my boss about the issues and that I am seeing a doctor to try to figure it out, but I am concerned that my frequent bathroom trips are being noticed by my coworkers. It is highly disruptive to my work but right now there is nothing I can do to decrease the frequency or make it more predictable and the medication is not helping. I’m afraid they will think I am slacking. How do I navigate this, especially when I don’t even have a diagnosis yet. On a related note, I have been getting compliments on my weight loss and really don’t know how to respond. I’m being asked about what diet I am on. I am currently overweight, but this weight loss is not a good thing. I don’t want to tell them that I am sick but I also don’t want to lie.

    1. Murphy*

      In regards to the bathroom time thing, I wouldn’t worry about it. People probably notice less than you think. It’s no one’s business what you’re doing in the bathroom and if anyone calls you on it, I’d just respond jokingly, “Fergus, do you really want to hear the details of my bathroom trips?”

      1. Murphy*

        Also, I’m sorry you’re going through that. I hope your doctor can get you better soon!

    2. fposte*

      Crohn’s person here. I think the stress you’re feeling is dirtying your lens on your co-workers here. It’s really unlikely that they think you’re slacking.

      I also would encourage you to change your mind on telling people you’re sick. You don’t have to go into detail, but you can just grimace a little when complimented and say “It’s actually a bit of a health issue, unfortunately.”

      Chronic digestive illness has its own peculiar stress, and IMHO it can be really hard to see the world clearly when it’s going on with you. I think you might find a bit of relief in trusting your co-workers a little more.

      1. Fish Microwaver*

        Try not to stress about it. Stress exacerbates chronic digestive illnesses like nothing else.

    3. Anna Canuck*

      Assuming you didn’t just start last week, if a coworker notices your bathroom trips, they’re much more likely to think “she must have some unpleasant health stuff going on” than “she must have suddenly decided to slack on the toilet”. People care less than you think about what you’re up to, and your focus has to be on your own health.
      As to the weight loss comments, if it’s not a conversation you want to have, just say “thanks” and move on. If they pry… maybe something like “I’m not sure how I’m losing weight. When my doctor figures it out, I’ll be very relieved.”

      1. Rovannen*

        It is so hard to navigate the weight loss due to illness. I have a chronic condition and go up and down the scale like a house painter on a ladder. I stick with “thanks” and carry on. Anything else sounds catty or gets too involved. Coworkers close to me know the reason.

  81. foolofgrace*

    I posted elsewhere about how to combine a cover letter with the resume as a pdf; I got some great answers, for which I’m very grateful.

    But the question that occurs to me is how standard is to make it all one file? It never occurred to me that my cover letter wouldn’t make it to the hiring manager; how common is that? Is it standard to attach them together as one file, or is it standard to have them separate? Thanks in advance.

    1. Ali G*

      I combine them just to make it easier on the person receiving them – so it’s one file they need to deal with instead of 2. I will say that when I was hiring, HR did the initial screen and I actually never saw a cover letter, only a resume. If that’s the case (and you have no way of knowing beforehand), it would happen even if you combined them, so it probably doesn’t matter.

  82. Spegasi*

    This is just an anecdote but oh boy was it a close call. I submitted my CV to a company and heard back almost immediately. In theory they offerred thrice my salary, plus benefits and training in Europe. This is when I got suspicious and lo and behold its a company known for money fraud, with people who work there telling horror stories about the pressure they were under all the time. I cancelled my interview for the next day and was relieved I got out of that mess quickly. I guess some offers are just too good to be true.

  83. Emma*

    Had an in-person interview following the phone interview & phone screen I posted about. It went super well & the job seems like exactly what I’m looking for. So exciting!

    Also officially working on turning my passions for horseback riding & ballet/dance into a Real Thing™ (Link in my username to learn more!

  84. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    I manage a program, which includes directing the work of six staff. These colleagues don’t report to me (they have various other managers), but I direct their work on my program.

    One of these colleagues, who provides administrative support, has a pattern of unreliability. Examples include calling out the night before she was supposed to be staffing an event because she couldn’t make the bus schedule work to get there on time (the event was at 6:00 the next morning, which she had known about for months); making mistakes in who she includes when scheduling meetings with our program participants; and simply not doing things she is asked to do (examples: I asked her to write up a list of the tasks she would normally handle in the two weeks she would be on leave so I could reassign them — she didn’t; I asked her to remove a calendar hold once we finalized a different date for an event — she didn’t, etc.)

    I address each problem with her as they happen, but it’s been enough of a pattern that I no longer trust her and I don’t want her working on my program any more. Should I have a direct conversation with her about the pattern(s) I’ve observed, or is that a conversation her manager should have (so should I instead meet with him to lay out the pattern; I’ve shared some of the more significant incidents with him, but not the frequent day-to-day mistakes/failures to complete work)?

    (I could probably remove her from my program if I wanted, but we’re very short-staffed in admin so I wouldn’t be able to replace her. I may go that direction anyway and just do her work myself, since I end up having to spend as much time tracking what she does anyway.)

    1. Anon Today Anon Tomorrow*

      I would talk to her manager. I suspect if it’s an issue for you then it’s probably an issue for others. And he is her manager, which means he needs to manage her. It’s not your job to do that.

      1. only acting normal*

        Seconded. I work in a similar “matrix management” system and this should be fed back to her manager.

  85. Amber Rose*

    This is a heavy drinking kind of week. By which I mean, there’s beer in the lunch room and everyone looks fragile. I’m so badly sunburned I’m like a tomato. I’ve never wanted to ditch work this badly. TGIF.

    Random silly story from the week: I was wandering the fair grounds and ended up talking to this sales dude who wanted me to sign up for an Airmiles thing. So I gave him my card to get the info off of, and it turns out he’s in school for the very thing my company does, at the school we donate equipment to.

    I told him I’d at least pass along his resume, though I can’t really vouch for him or anything.

  86. Onomotopeia*

    This is a new one. My boss told he made a mistake and literally apologized for not promoting me last year and then promoted me. (My coworker who was promoted is being transferred to another department) I’m happy? (actual question mark) I did ask what changed and tried to identify the reasons why I wasn’t promoted in the first place so that it wouldn’t be an issue. (The answer was vague, but workable)

    But, to be honest – While, there’s a sense of utter and complete validation that I never would have expected, I was getting to be ok with biding my time until my inevitable departure (I’m kind of under contract, so I couldn’t leave until my time was up). And now that I’ve been handed the reins, I’m not sure I want them (because I was of a mind to leave this department, this career, this organization)… but it would be insane to decline and there’s no justifiable reason not to — aside from my childish “I don’t wanna”. So, I will take them and drive responsibly.

  87. There is a Life Outside the Library*

    I left my old job nine months ago. I was supervising and doing the job of a manager without a change in salary or title. Not long after I left they finally hired an actual supervisor. I try not to be bitter about it…I did not want the job after everything I had been through and I was totally burned out. I left the place with tons of documentation and clearly laid out decision making. Not to sound arrogant, but I definitely left that place in much better condition than when I first arrived.

    Every now and then, someone from there contacts me to ask a question. Knowing the people, I can think of a few different scenarios: Boss doesn’t like New Supervisor’s take on something, complete ineptitude, or the desire to point the finger. Now, to give you an idea of how ridiculously unprofessional former boss was: we had a coworker who suffered a stroke and had to retire early. Even after this, she would still ask us to contact him for help. She’s very manipulative…and she’s also been a reference. Can I ask her to stop contacting me? I feel like this is never going to end and I really made a good faith (better than, really) effort to tie up all my loose ends and document everything.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Will she be your reference in the future? If not, I’d go black hole on her – just stop responding. If so, you’ll want to be a bit more careful. You can still be useless enough to (hopefully) discourage her from asking questions, though. Take a long time to respond, and answer with “I’m really sorry, but it’s been so long, I’m not sure I remember!”

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      This is ridiculous. Simply say, “I’m sorry, I don’t work there anymore. I wish you the best.”

  88. Anon Today Anon Tomorrow*

    Why do you think some job candidates don’t understand their limitations?

    We’ve been interviewing for a coordinator position, and there have been at least two candidates who seem to think that they are qualified for positions that are significantly more senior (think c-suite level work, versus the next step or two up in the career ladder). I really don’t understand how they’ve come to this conclusion. It’s not that they will never be able to do that level of work, but that they are years away from being even remotely close. And the candidates that fell into this category had a good decade of work experience.

    1. AdminX2*

      Why aren’t pre-screen calls taking care of this? Maybe tweak the requirements a bit more explicitly.

    2. Embarassed and anon*

      I actually read a study on that. They found that people who are not competent tend to rate their abilities much higher than those who are competent. The theory was that you don’t know what you don’t know. People who know the task better are better able to notice their shortcomings while those who barely know the task at all don’t know how many ways they are messing up.

    3. Pollygrammer*

      Are your postings explicit enough?Such-and-such years experience and degree required, and that kind of thing? Organizations can vary wildly in how they use titles–the same job might be a manager, a coordinator or an associate in different companies.

      Or…Assistant Regional Manager vs. Assistant TO the Regional Manager :)

      1. Friday*

        I saw an Assistant To The CEO job posting the other day. It was like seeing a double rainbow. :)

    4. qualifiedbutunconnected*

      Meh, where I work you don’t have to be qualified for a giant-leap kind of promotion if you “know” someone. Hopefully that’s not the culture where you work, but considering it does happen, people are going to try! I agree with others though that you should have some way to screen these folks out before interviewing stage.

    5. Bea*

      Ah yeah, that’s a thing for sure. I get a lot of people with a bunch of entry level positions in their history that then think that they can just leap into an upper management position.

      I also see the spectacular AP or AR clerks that try to tell me that they can full-cycle books and a one person accounting department setup. I flinch every time I see someone write their title as “bookkeeper” and then their job turns out to be AP or AR, not both just one and they’ve never reconciled a checking account.

      It’s at least glaringly obvious to screen them out usually.

  89. Casper*

    How long after probably being ghosted by an interviewer would you wait before leaving a glassdoor interview review? I feel like it would be constructive and beneficial to share my experience, but I also feel like it would totally take me out of a running if there still were one.

    1. you don't know me*

      Last week I received an rejection email about a job I interviewed for last August! I think wait until you have a new job and then leave the review.

      The job I ended up getting took two weeks between interview and job offer. I just assumed I hadn’t gotten the job. And it turns out I hadn’t. I was number 3 on their list but number 1 turned it down and number 2 failed the background check.

      1. Casper*

        That’s probably the answer I knew but didn’t feel like hearing, lol. I’m…not frustrated, since I feel like I’ve let it go, but disappointed. They were in *such a rush* to hire for this position. The interviews went amazingly well. I canceled weeknight plans to put 5 hours into an assessment project. And then got absolutely no response back. The hiring process can just be so demoralizing! It was a great job but if I randomly got an offer now I would think twice after the way they disrespected my time.

    2. Pollygrammer*

      Ghosting is, sadly, so extremely normal these days that I wouldn’t bother with a glassdoor review. And there is always the possibility of a future job with that organization–lots of places that are great to work for are still pretty terrible to their job candidates.

    3. Ali G*

      I got a rejection from a job yesterday that I don’t even remember applying for!
      I wouldn’t do it…yet

  90. sweet potatoes*

    More venting about my job!
    Things got so bad this week that a supplier who knows me pretty well actually called me up to ask if I was OK. So, that was fun, I ended up crying in my car (where I took the call).
    I’m getting put in a PIP as prep to fire me, which is fine. I suck at this job. I’m in way over my head. I’m looking hard for a job so I can quit as quickly as possible. I know one day I’ll walk into the office and a couple managers will be waiting for me so they can fire me and escort me out of the building, so I wanna avoid that. Honestly, I would tender my resignation but I don’t know how long it will take me to get a job and cannot afford to be unemployed.
    Everyone is angry at me and I have a couple of sales people yelling at me on a daily basis (I yell back… which is not great, but I’m at the end of my rope here).
    This week I dropped fifteen projects I was working on and focused on some tasks that are the highest priority, at this point I’m only doing about 1/3 of my job but something had to give to keep things running as I am physically unable to do the whole job by myself. I’m already working over 12 hours a day and am so tired.

    1. fposte*

      I’m sorry, SP; that’s really hard. Can you be open with your manager about transitioning out of the job? That might give you more room to job-search now, which sounds like it needs to happen.

      1. sweet potatoes*

        I have been wondering about that tbh, I’m hesitant since he is in the habit of firing people from what looks to be out of the blue. I’m torn, since it would be a good idea and it would give us both more time.
        For one, I know he won’t be able to replace me, I’m way underpaid for my position and it’s a very hot market for the kind of work I do.

  91. Karma*

    I’m curious to know if anyone else here works in a knowledge management role? I’m a knowledge manager for a medium sized corporate (2000+ employees) – my team and I manage all of the policy and procedural documentation. I’ve only ever met one other person outside of my company who does the same work as me so I’m wondering how common it is. I rarely see jobs advertised elsewhere

    1. only acting normal*

      I don’t work in KM but my company has a KM section. They don’t handle (all) policy and procedures documentation though, that’s mostly part of HR. KM just do their bits.
      They are in charge of ‘corporate memory’: we’re a science organisation so they curate all our published reports (internal grey lit and external), and recently they’ve overhauled our underpinning data storage structures – i.e. for the stuff that doesn’t go in reports, like modelling outputs etc.

      1. Karma*

        It’s really interesting to me to hear the different places where this is a role that exists and isn’t just a task incorporated into another role. Thanks for replying

  92. Girl from the North Country*

    How important is salary vs. title? Would you take a job with a higher salary if it meant a lower title, and vice versa? If the job had great benefits in addition to the higher salary, would you care less about the title?

    1. AdminX2*

      As someone not interested in ladder climbing in that way, salary and benefits would definitely be better. But a lot of jobs build on other jobs so if you hope to manage people or projects further up the ladder, sometimes the title is best.

    2. stitchinthyme*

      Speaking for myself, my actual job title is WAY down the list of things I care about when deciding on an offer. The more important criteria include salary, benefits, the work environment, the type of work I’ll be doing, and the people I’ll be working with. I had several jobs where the title was “Systems Analyst” even though I’m really a Software Developer or Software Engineer. (At one place, this had to do with the salary brackets; Systems Analysts were a higher pay grade and the management was trying to look out for their people.)

      That said, I am not ambitious. I’m not trying to climb the ladder, so you can call me a garbage collector if you want, as long as my pay’s good and I get to write code.

    3. Mid-Career*

      I guess I would consider the salary and title combination separately for each offer. If you go from a small company to a large company, you could be in the scenario to step back in title but up in pay. Would you then be in a good position to go up to your previous title at the big company in a couple years?

      I’m thinking something like this:
      Current job: Small Company, HR Director, Pay=$80,000
      New job: Big Company, HR Manager, Pay=$90,000
      Promotion at new job: HR Director, Pay=$110,000
      Next promotion: Sr. HR VP, which could be role that doesn’t exist at the small company

      Similarly, you could go from a big company to a small company to get the experience you need at a higher title, and then go back to a big company. One of my bosses left a project manager role with us to be a VP at a small place, then came back as a VP, and took a quick leap to EVP and Division President.

      All that is really for strategic moves. If I’m not trying to climb anywhere, than I just care about what I’m doing and if I will like it and does it pay more with the total comp package. I don’t really put much weight on title because companies call things different names, but I would look at duties.

      1. Judy (since 2010)*

        You’ve got to look at the responsibilities. I’ve worked at companies where a “Lead Engineer” has supervisory roles over 3-10 engineers, and “Managers” have a 2-5 leads working for them, and “Directors” have 200-500 people working for them. I’ve worked at another company where Leads were the highest level individual contributors, Managers had up to 10 people working for them, and Directors had at most 50 people working for them. My current company has Managers with 0-5 people working for them and Directors with 0-2 managers working for them. It’s about the number of people and the size of the budget (responsibility) rather than the title.

    4. Anna Canuck*

      You can call me anything you want if you pay me enough and the work is tolerable. I have exactly zero interest in a title.

    5. Sunflower*

      Job titles fluctuate A LOT from company to company. At my roommates job, coordinators are right out of college and she is an Associate Director at about 5 years out. At my job, I am a coordinator 5 years out of college and to be an associate director here, you would need at least 10-15 years experience. Worry more about the job description and duties rather than the title.

  93. JustaTech*

    TL;DR Please label your files and throw out junk before you leave!

    Long version: I’m in a heavily regulated industry. At work I’ve been helping to go through our archive room. Long, long ago it was well organized and cataloged, but then we had years and years of layoffs and bad times and the people in charge of the room were let go early and it basically became a dumping ground of stuff. The problem is that some of that stuff we must by law keep, and some of that stuff we must keep to defend our IP and some of that stuff is important to the company, and some of it is genuine junk. But it’s all mixed together in boxes with no labels, or the label is “So-and-so’s desk” where So-and-so left so long ago no one remembers what they did or what department they were in, so you have to read all the files to try and figure out what it is. And you get things like essential records mixed with microwave instruction booklets.

    So, if you know you are leaving a job, please do the universe a kindness and recycle the stuff in your desk you know doesn’t need to be kept. And if your direct report just left and you were given a box of their desk contents, please take half an hour and recycle the stuff that doesn’t matter. Otherwise in 15 years when you’re a director you’re going to find yourself confronted with 20 banker’s boxes of stuff that you’re the only person who’s been there long enough to sort.

    1. only acting normal*

      I have a colleague planning to retire soon; she has the equivalent of a 6’ by 3’ cupboard packed solid (and I mean solid) with papers. (We’re only allocated 1/4 of that space each, so I’ve no clue how she managed to nab the extra space.)
      It’s not going to be pretty when she goes because *some* of it has a legal retention period of 10+ years… so it all has to be sorted.

    2. Lison*

      Well to be honest that’s part of the cost of lsying people off. And needs to be part of the decision. A very minor part but part of it because expecting a layed off employee to care about the impact on people who still get a paycheck is not right.

    4. Hamburke*

      Last year, my boss went thru 4 assistants and 3 temps before she hired me. Next Friday, it’s clean out/reorg the office day! I have recently found instructions for some of the things I do, new hire paperwork that was never filed properly and old receipts from clients (we do bookkeeping) that would have been helpful 6 mo before I started in my preliminary clean out…

    5. Bacon Pancakes*

      Supervisor retired about 18 months ago and Boss isn’t going to refill the position. Golden Child claimed his office for her own and spent a “rainy day” on cleaning out old files. But everything she cleaned out is sitting in boxes on the floor because she never made it to the garbage. And then she left. So there it will sit for god knows how long.

  94. Mid-Career*

    Questions on continuing ed. I am a technical project manager with an engineering background in a declining specialty (non-IT). I’m looking to refresh and add some skills, but I am in an endless loop of procrastination. I’ll decide to do “X” then change my mind the next day. Any thoughts on what would be most effective?

    – MOOCs
    – self-study (books, papers, MOOCs where you don’t pay for the full service)
    – Graduate certificate (12-15 hrs of for-credit classes)
    – Other

    I am mostly interested in knowledge, but also possibly signaling expertise so that I could move from Field A to tangential Field B.

    1. LQ*

      Putting down money can be really helpful if you are procrastinating. Our continuing ed from a local university offers not quite graduate certificates but something close, but you go in and they are in person sessions, which might also help for procrastination. A lot of sessions like PMing require 4-6 classes and the classes are usually 2 day classes. A decent chunk of time, but they are good and a good way to be forced to do it.

      I have really liked some of the MOOCs but I think you have to really set aside the time and go all in on them. Treat it like a CLASS, not like eh something I do now and then. But really schedule the time on your calendar.

      Setting goals and holding yourself accountable in whatever way works for you, lists, money, someone else. For me a list and a specific plan for by X date I will have done this block of stuff and then blocking off a chunk of time every week/day makes a big difference.

    2. J.B.*

      Check out your community college. Not that expensive but I’ve picked up some useful skills with some paperwork behind them.

  95. Looking for interview clothing advice*

    Looking for clothing advice for my partner who is in a somewhat unusual interview situation. The role is with a large-ish nonprofit in the Pacific Northwest, and would partly involve working with community gardens.

    He’s done a first interview via phone, and now has an on-site half-day second interview next week. The first part will be in-office, then they’ll do a site visit to one of the gardens.

    Suggestions on what he should wear? I was going to suggest jacket/tie/slacks (or maybe khakis?), with the option to take off the jacket & tie and maybe roll up his sleeves for the garden visit. He thinks this is still too dressy for the garden, and also that any taking off of clothing isn’t really interview-appropriate. He also doesn’t want to get super hot and sweaty, and it’s actually been warm enough here that this is a risk (unlike our normal cloud/rain combo). Plus we’re in the notoriously casual Pacific Northwest.

    Another factor: This is a career change for him, so he doesn’t have a great sense of the norms for this type of organization. He’s coming from a field where he mostly worked outdoors and wore carharts or jeans — even on days he needed to go into the office, normal attire was jeans/plaid. The most dressy he’s ever needed to be for an interview is slacks with a long-sleeved button up and tie.

    We did look at the pics of leadership on the organization’s website, and they are mostly business casual: no ties, some polo shirts & knit tops.

    Suggestions?

    1. AdminX2*

      Ideally you ask when you confirm the time. But go with button down shirt, tie, slacks and a nice but comfy to take off the jacket- seersucker or linen.

    3. CTT*

      Thirding to ask them – the site visit to the garden is out-of-the-norm enough that I don’t think he’ll look naive if he asks.

    4. Bex*

      I would probably recommend grey slacks/chinos, a button down, and a tie. For a nonprofit in the PNW, I think it’s fine to skip the jacket.

    5. soupmonger*

      I’d suggest wearing a white shirt if there’s a chance of getting sweaty. White doesn’t go dark when it gets wet.

  96. ellums*

    A newish (four months) colleague wears an ostomy bag. She sometimes empties it (changes it?) in the women’s bathroom at the office. The smell that results when she does so is indescribably awful, and it lingers for a while and wafts out into the hallway when the door is opened. The odor is akin to what I assume raw sewage smells like, and it takes some time to clear out enough for others to use the bathroom. It’s a relatively small bathroom – two stalls – with no windows. There is a men’s bathroom, but no standalone accessible/family bathroom.

    Any advice on how we might sensitively address this? This is her place of work; she of course has every right to use the bathroom as she needs, and we do not want to embarrass her or make her feel like she can’t use it. There is a can of bathroom spray there, but it doesn’t help at all, and we’re sort of worried that she’ll notice the sudden appearance of a bunch of extra sprays, candles, an extra fan, etc., and will feel like it’s directed at her. Do we just need to keep sucking it up, holding our noses, and discreetly waiting for the smell to die down?

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      There probably isn’t anything you can do. My grandmother had one and she had a “schedule” of when she would empty/change hers in order to cause the least unpleasantness to others. Unfortunately things happen sometimes and she would have to empty it when others were around (and as she said had no means of escape). You are correct that it is most unpleasant but everybody poops. She just does it a little different.
      Try looking at it from her perspective – she knows her shit smells worse than the average person and she also knows that pretty much everyone in the office knows when she does her business.
      Be kind.

      1. ellums*

        Kindness is definitely the primary concern – that’s why we’re even unsure about putting more products in the bathroom. We don’t want her to feel like she’s the reason for the sudden appearance of a fan or candles or heavy-duty odor spray or whatever.

        1. Bacon Pancakes*

          There should be a few items you can invest in that are discreet. For example, I put a deoterizing dish on top of the supply cabinet in our restroom and switch it out every few months. Others have sticky backs that can be put under the sink or on the back if the door (so the air movement moves the scent when the door opens).

    2. Murphy*

      I don’t think you can do anything. She’s using the bathroom for its intended purpose and in the proper way (not spilling anything, etc.)

    3. fposte*

      Unless you have a solution to offer her, there’s no point in talking to her; her action isn’t optional.

      One possibility, though, is to address the real problem–the lack of ventilation in the bathroom–with whoever has some power to get a vent fan installed.

      1. Rainy*

        This is the correct action.

        She is pooping in a place meant for pooping. The only person who did anything wrong in this entire situation is the person who authorized the installation of plumbing without appropriate ventilation.

    4. Mediamaven*

      As terrible as that sounds, I think you need to suck it up. She probably already feels awful and it’s likely something she has to do.

    5. Chaordic One*

      Would Lysol or Fabreze help just a little bit? I normally don’t like air fresheners, but sometimes…

    6. anonagain*

      I think this is one of those issues where the less people are discussing among themselves, the better. I think it makes sense to talk to facilities about the ventilation, like fposte suggested. I wouldn’t even mention that someone had a colostomy bag.

      But do take care that you aren’t discussing this with coworkers or what have you.

    7. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      At the very least I would ask someone about getting even a portable air purifier to add to the bathroom. Yeah, she’s going to know it’s because of her, but I can tell you she hates the smell as much as everyone else.

      $100-200 on amazon and a small table near an outlet and problem minimized without adding extra stinkiness to the room with floral scents.

      1. Garland not Andrews*

        This! Useful for everyone using the restroom, particularly as it is lacking proper ventilation.

        Also research ostomy odor control. There are sprays available specifically for this which can help.

    8. Jaid_Diah*

      Try PooPourri. But there’s products she should be adding to the bag which would reduce the smell.
      I wish her well.

    9. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      +1 on asking for the installation of an electronic air freshener system as well as an adequate vent/fan system. (They sense the air, and spew citrus /orange for the one I’ve been in – automatically when the air needs it).
      I have a similar situation with the Other – intestinal issues – and rubbing alcohol poured into the bowl before, then after the flush – also helps some. (big bottles from Costco/ institutional supply).
      She knows, so adding some spray options won’t be a surprise, IMHO. (I’ve also had issues and been confronted, so I know the pain – I’d far rather have had a supply of sprays or pours at hand first to minimize it). Having a supply of sprays just appear also lets her have some sense of options.
      BTW – Yankee candle used to make a “clean air” spray that worked but it was expensive enough that I kept it in my go-bag for mother in law and executive bathroom visits. Ozium (which I’m sure is readily available) is a close second.

  97. CupcakeCounter*

    I have a question about one of the questions from the other day about posting a job before firing the previous employee. Does your “don’t do this” opinion change if the employee has been put on a PIP with very clear requirements, has not made the necessary improvements (or seemed to try very hard towards making those improvements) and has had that communicated to them in weekly check-ins, and the position is one that really should not be vacant long and is somewhat specialized and hard to fill?
    My husband is going through this right now and wanted HR to post the position on a industry specific job board weeks ago but they said as long as the process was on-going they couldn’t post it. The reality is the only reason this person wasn’t let go earlier in the PIP process is because my husband was out for surgery and they needed someone to do the physical part of the job (which he was pretty good at). The job board he wanted the position posted to is not something this guy or any of his coworkers would have ever seen as it is part of a industry site/publication that requires membership. The company does put out the monthly magazine for all employees but by the time the position would have hit the next issue the predetermined end date for the PIP would have come and gone (the position would be posted to the website but not be printed for another month and this was just shy of 3 weeks before the PIP deadline).
    It is moot now as the guy called in the first 2 days of this week and then resigned yesterday (today was D-day) but I’m curious if the general opinion on job posting before the official firing is different given the circumstances. Also that industry job board is the only place my husband wanted the posting placed at that time; he did not want it posted on the internal site or any of the other “normal” places they usually post jobs.

    1. AdminX2*

      I say no. I know in general PIP is taken to mean “a warning” but it really should be a good faith effort.

  98. anoniiaa*

    A co-worker and I have to meet in a public space sometimes, so being somewhat quiet in our conversations is important. The other day I tried to politely remind her of this and she had an absolute deer in the headlights look at me. Then she proceeded to let me know she was not meek and timid, so she didn’t speak quietly. How incredibly insensitive. Or is it just me? She also was speaking about a situation she was in with a stalker, and how she is completely over the situation and thinks you can get there also. I sensed something having to do with that was because she was able to get a protection order, and why couldn’t anyone with a real situation of a person following them?

    1. Chaordic One*

      It is certainly not just you. Your coworker has some issues. (Just how much of that is because of the situation she has been through is debatable. There’s a whole lot more that could be said about her.) You reminded her of the lack of privacy in the public space, to be considerate of the other people there by not being loud and she reacted badly. There isn’t much else you can do.

  99. squids*

    I have a good job, and really appreciate the organization I work for. But I hate the mission statement. I hate it so much. Badly worded, sounds like it was written by someone who thinks they’re clever but is actually kind of a jerk.

    I know this isn’t a hill to die on.

    1. Anne (with an “e”)*

      In my experience, mission statements are written, reviewed, and revised numerous times by a committee. I had the joy (sarcasm) of serving on the Mission Statement Committee at OldJob. IIRC, it was minimally a year long process that had the input and ultimate approval of numerous stakeholders.

  100. General Organa*

    Hi all, any advice on dealing with the emotions around taking a massive pay cut? I come from a law firm background in a major market; if I weren’t leaving, my income over the next year or so including bonuses would be around 250K. But I hated the job, and I will be leaving to go work as a litigator for a civil rights organization you’ve probably heard of later this year–for around a quarter of the pay. This is something I’ve wanted to do for a long time, and while I’m not sure of how it will be in practice (given the current political climate, I think there will be a lot of fighting losing battles), I’m aware that I’m incredibly lucky to have the opportunity to pursue something that I’ve always thought would be my dream job. I don’t have a partner to supplement income, but I can afford the switch–I’ll be moving to a much cheaper city for the new job, and I paid all of my student debt while at the firm, as well as putting some money into savings.

    So I don’t regret my choice, but I’m having a hard time with some of the emotions around it. The vast majority of my professional circle has either stayed at law firms or gone in-house, and they’re making well into the six figures. The things that I took for granted I’d be able to do financially have become much harder and/or been pushed much further into the future than they are for a lot of the people around me. Also, I’m single right now, but I have recently discovered I have a lot of previously suppressed feelings about my earning power and how it would play out in terms of having a feminist marriage. Subconsciously, I suppose I thought that I would have standing to make sure things were kept egalitarian because I would be “providing for my family” economically as much or more as my future partner, but now that likely won’t be true–which obviously can be worked around by finding a partner who isn’t sexist, but apparently more of it was bound up with the money in my head than I’d realized.

    Anyone who’s taken a pay cut, did you struggle with this? I’d love any insight.

    1. Rainy*

      I took a pay and authority cut about a year ago in order to stay in my current department (and division). At the time I was only a little conflicted (I am the breadwinner in my relationship, but it turns out I don’t actually care about money, just what I can do with it, and my partner feels the same), but circumstances in my department got a bit worse a few months ago and I really felt the decision in a way I hadn’t before. The move to the new department would have resulted in me leaving the university entirely, though–I could tell that five minutes into my first meeting with that department chair–and I actually do really like working here. My current role has less authority and less decision-making power, and I really miss that, but I also get to work more directly with students, which I love, so it balances out.

      If you are with the right person, who’s the breadwinner doesn’t matter in how egalitarian the relationship is. If you’re with a jerkface, even you bringing in most of the money would result in you also doing most of the emotional and household labour, because that’s how selfish jerkfaces act.

      1. egal*

        Just came here to support Rainy’s point: “If you are with the right person, who’s the breadwinner doesn’t matter in how egalitarian the relationship is.”
        I am a woman married to a man. We started out with both of us working part-time and having roughly equal annual salaries. But now I work full-time and make more than twice what he does. When I accepted the full-time position, we restructured our division of labor. Since I now put more hours toward “job work” than he does, he puts more hours toward “house work” than I do. So, I am the breadwinner and he does more of the household management, but we both have equal power in the relationship.

        1. General Organa*

          Thanks, both of you. Intellectually, I know that’s right. I just took myself by surprise with the feelings that popped up! Rainy, I also really liked your articulation of “it turns out I don’t actually care about money, just what I can do with it.” That resonates with me, and I suspect that I’ll feel better once I internalize that my lifestyle won’t actually change all that much (since a lot of my income was going to debt).

          1. Rainy*

            Stuff gets bound up with other stuff it’s not actually related to. A lot of what I do is help people disconnect bundled concepts around work so they can make good decisions that maximize desirable outcomes, actually. :)

    2. ExcelJedi*

      I took a 40% pay cut to get to my current job a little over 2 years ago, though was a lateral move. In my case, I moved to a non-profit where I can leave my work at home at the end of every day, in an area with a somewhat lower cost of living.

      It’s hard some days, especially when I can’t do the things I used to a couple of years ago, but for me it’s worth it because I get a lot more time to myself, I’m not stressed out all the time anymore, and I have a much healthier relationship with my partner and family. I also remind myself that my company is literally working to change the world right now (we work with racial equity and youth development), and that my life is a LOT better than most of out clients’.

      It’s not perfect, and you’ll definitely find yourself looking around for other opportunities every now and again. But whenever I think seriously about leaving, and recognize all the things I’d be sacrificing for more money, I generally realize that the greener pastures aren’t actually worth it – at least for now.

      1. General Organa*

        Thank you! I see a lot of similarities between our situations, and I appreciate your honesty. I also like your “at least for now” caveat–it’s such a big change that it feels a little all-encompassing, but it’s good to remember that it doesn’t have to be a permanent shift.

    3. twig*

      Another thing to keep in mind is that you don’t know who your future partner might be, what kind of work they do or what kind of salary they make. — You may still be the breadwinner.

  101. The Nonniest Moose*

    Anyone have advice for working in the same department as someone who has been found “not responsible” in the sexual harassment claim you brought against them? Officially the investigation is still ongoing but I’m reading the writing on the wall that it’s my word against his unless my colleagues (who are afraid of retaliation) are willing to attach their names in support of me.

    I’m leaving in a year, I don’t work directly with the guy, and it’s rare that I see him around any more, so I’m not concerned about the day-to-day thank goodness. I am mostly concerned about happening to run into him in the hallway or a meeting, and feeling a little jumpy “what if he’s around?” flicker whenever I go to my office.

    1. Pollygrammer*

      So sorry you’re dealing with this. Could you mentally shift your jumpiness into anger? I’ve managed to do this with a higher-up (not sexual harassment, just verbal abuse). I took it from “I hate seeing this guy’s face, he makes me so anxious” to “I hate this guy’s face–rot in hell, you MF’er” and it made me feel more confident and stand up straighter when I had to be around him. I tried to keep myself from being scared of him by reminding myself that he was trash and I was better than him.

      1. The Nonniest Moose*

        Thanks. I think you’re right that reframing both my response and my desired outcome will help. I don’t need to be anxious or embarrassed (because the Authority Figure validated him rather than me) and we can simply never acknowledge one another for the next year. Ghosts passing in the night.

    2. epi*

      Whoa, I’m really sorry this is happening to you.

      I would start trying to get some accommodations in place now. It’s not ideal for either of you to have to worry about running into one another at work. It protects you for obvious reasons, it protects him because he is less likely to accidentally look like he is retaliating against you or continuing to bother you, and it protects the company to be able to show they accommodated you and took reasonable steps to make the environment more bearable for you both. Talk to whoever you trust most about moving him, you, or both of you and what other steps can be taken to reduce the risk of you seeing each other all the time. If you have specific suggestions, make them, but you can also say what outcome you are looking for– less risk of contact– and try to open a discussion about how to accomplish that.

      If you’re concerned about retaliation or continued harassment, you may want to do some safety planning around things like how you leave the building, varying your route home, and leaning on colleagues you trust to accompany you to certain areas of your building. You may also want to talk to a victim advocate. There are multiple organizations and sometimes government agencies that employ advocates, or you can often get recommendations about where to get in touch with one by contacting a crisis hotline or an organization that provides support for victims of sexual or domestic violence.

      If you’re in the US, your organization generally should not need to wait on the outcome of this investigation to take some steps to separate you two– in fact it is good practice for them to do it in the interim. And on your end, do whatever you need to in order to manage your anxiety and feel relatively comfortable at work. You may want counseling at this time, just for emotional support. Whatever feels comforting and good for you right now, go for it. It’s not a permanent lifestyle change or letting him win, it’s part of you being strong enough to cope with this truly shitty situation.

      I’ll be hoping for the best with your investigation and that one way or another, you get through this and on to a situation where you are safe and treated as well as you deserve. You can do it!

  102. LQ*

    I have a document question. One of the things that comes up frequently here is “document, document, document” at least from the commentators. But what does that document look like? What does the documentation look like specifically? I’ve been trying to document something and trying to capture the right information. But I’m not sure what it should really look like. I’m very interested if there are good examples. Right now I’ve been doing it sort of grouped by project and grouped by day. I’m doing it on my work computer but also printing off copies every few days. (I’m not worried about my boss seeing it, he’d be thrilled to know I was but I don’t want to tell him more or ask him for details because that might go down a path I don’t want to go down yet.) So I’m not worried about location of the document. I’m worried about what the document should look like.
    I’m trying to keep it fairly factual and impersonal. I’m writing it in the third person (which is odd but seems like the right way to do it and keeps me more factual). I’m not putting specific meeting or time stamps on but just sort of by day. I’m also occasionally putting second hand information in that is incredibly relevant but I’m not entirely sure I should be.

    So what does the document you get from document, document, document look like?

    1. fposte*

      I’m pretty agnostic on the “document” thing; I think sometimes it’s crucial (documenting a pattern of a hostile work environment) and sometimes it’s organizationally pointless and psychologically detrimental (documenting how unpleasant a colleague is).

      When I’ve had to do it, I do date, time, and action. I just used a Word doc. “7/13, 10 am. Fergus referred to Croatians as ‘stupid Crot-faces.'”

      1. LQ*

        Yeah, the part where it is about how unpleasant is hard and definitely some days makes me feel like crap. But I’ve managed to balance some of that by adding a task for myself to do as the last thing before I leave to write down at least one good thing I did for the program and for the larger goal we are trying to accomplish.

        I agree about documenting usually not being that useful. But we are dealing with a problem where no single incident is bad enough to warrant the kind of change we need, but the overall picture (literal millions of dollars and nothing to show for it) is shocking and the “why” is, well it’s not that a single bad thing, it’s that a thousand little paper cuts of bad things. A hundred missed deadlines. A hundred overridden decisions because I “couldn’t possibly understand” or “it’s far too technical.” And all these other things. So trying to demonstrate this pattern and then align that to this is why we are spending millions and not getting anything to show for it.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          So my husband had to do this. He was in a non-office job so there wasn’t an obvious paper trail. What he used were small notebooks (2″x3″) small.

          In your case if you have emails and things, I might use something like evernote or onenote if you have access. Something that you can both write (type) in and that you can copy emails in.

          1. LQ*

            I’ve just started carrying a tiny 2×3 notebook for some of these moment by moment things as well. Glad I’m on the right track there.

    2. AdminX2*

      Most often for me it’s an email, copying everyone relevant (which is sometimes just the other person) going “Just confirming as we discussed in our meeting I plan to do X and Y and we will meet again in two weeks to discuss.” or whatever.

      Or just a shared file folder marked “Documentation” and you save files based on subject.

      1. LQ*

        Hm. This is good to know. I’m not really going for something shared here, but I think doing a little more of that might be valuable for everyone involved and then would also be valuable for me later on. (On the other hand it pushes that task onto me because that’s part of the issue so I’ll have to think through this a bit…)

    3. NW Mossy*

      Based on my own experience, I’d encourage you to date/time mark your notes. The date/time of any specific meeting or incident isn’t terribly important, but when you’re trying to document an ongoing situation, it’s hugely helpful to show the sequence of events. It also makes it a lot easier to slot in other pieces of information (like emails) into their appropriate places in the timeline.

      For example, when I was working with an attorney on a response to a legal action against the company, one of the points of contention was that the company did X in response to the suing party doing Y. My notes made it clear that internal discussions about doing X were underway well before we had any knowledge of Y, and we had emails to back that up. The timestamps only ended up being important in one instance, where we were able to use to demonstrate when a meeting took place relative to an email on the same day. Date/time stamping isn’t much effort, and it’s vastly easier than trying to reconstruct the sequence of events many months later when our memories get hazy.

      My template for this was very simple – literally just a two-column table showing the date and time, with a brief bullet-point summary of the topic/key points. Supporting documentation (emails, etc.) got stashed alongside it, and I’d make a little notation next to any bullet that had a supporting piece. In your case, you could capture second-hand information in your table as well – you could just add a column to indicate whether a particular line is from your experience or that of someone else.

      1. LQ*

        This is very helpful. I hadn’t been putting time stamps on but I can certainly just do that easily, and the notation of items that have supporting documentation is a great idea. Thank you!

        1. Bibliovore*

          I sent myself emails after each incident keeping it very simple. The initials of the report. Name , task, my communication (I asked, I emailed) incident(missed deadline, scheduled at 9:00–arrived at 9:15, ) what I did- followed up with conversation, what I said. Emailed follow up request. The email is date and time stamped. I subject heading with the employees initials and topic so that it is searchable later. When I started this process, I did think all these small incidents were minor but they did add up and were helpful when we had investigations and hearings.

      2. Bibliovore*

        I sent myself emails after each incident keeping it very simple. The initials of the report. Name , task, my communication (I asked, I emailed) incident(missed deadline, scheduled at 9:00–arrived at 9:15, ) what I did- followed up with conversation, what I said. Emailed follow up request. The email is date and time stamped. I subject heading with the employees initials and topic so that it is searchable later. When I started this process, I did think all these small incidents were minor but they did add up and were helpful when we had investigations and hearings.

  103. Brain Doesn't Work for Work*

    What if I am just too stupid to have a job? I have a college and master’s degree, but while my brain works fine for writing papers and taking exams, in the workplace it doesn’t seem to work at all! I’ve been at my first full-time office job for a year now, and I keep making mistakes. Filing systems, analysis, metrics, inter-office communications, paperwork, writing reports…it’s all hard for me to do right, even after a year, and I’m constantly scolded. I don’t know how to improve. I think I’m not great at details and multitasking, but most jobs ask for both of those things. Any tips?

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      It could be you simply aren’t a good fit for the position but also if you went straight though your master’s program your brain is wired to “school says do it this way” and you haven’t successfully retrained it yet.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      I doubt you have a brain that’s not meant for work….though you may be in an environment which you’re not meant for, or managers who don’t work for you.

      I’m a lot like you: great in school, but put my in an office and I’m lost with most of it. (Phones, filing, customer service, and anything that has to do with process for the sake of process – with no explanation – is terribly hard for me.) It took me a while to find things that I’m good at that I could market well (again in my case, that’s report writing, analysis, and big picture strategic planning), but now that I’m here, I get to work on the other things more slowly.

      You may need a change more than you need to throw in the towel on the work world. ;)

    3. fposte*

      Have you checked with a doctor to see if your brain really is struggling in any medically significant way, like ADHD? Can you discern a pattern in your mistakes–are they of fact, of timing, of format?

    4. KR*

      I’m having similar issues at work. I’m in therapy because I think a lot of my issues are anxiety related – can you look into some sort of occupational therapy or a class on time management or something? I’m sorry this is really hard I know. I know I’m smart enough to do this job but I can’t make myself actually do the work and do it right

    5. LQ*

      So first, making mistakes is perfectly normal. Making the same mistakes over and over is a problem, but making mistakes itself isn’t wrong. It’s a perfectly ordinary part of work. Especially at less than a year. You think you aren’t great at details, but if you’ve written papers and taken exams you’ve got detail experience. And no one is actually good at multitasking. One of the biggest things is to change the way you think about work. No one pops out good at it, they have to learn and grow into roles over time. They learn things along the way.

      If you’re in a good job/career path I think you almost never get As. You get lots of Cs and Bs, once you start to get an A then (assuming you want it) it’s time to look for something else to do. Then you get into the learning and getting Cs and Bs. You want to do a great job, but you have to be in a mode to always learn new stuff and get great at that and then put more onto your plate and learn that new stuff. You can’t assume you’ll just be good. You have to work at it. Watching others, soaking it in, doing what they do.

      You might also be at a place that’s not the right place. If you’re being scolded they might not be great bosses. If you think “hey, I need you to format this in Arial” is scolding then you may need to adjust your view of feedback. So part of it is, …is what you’re doing a mistake at all? Or is it just sort of normal. If no one told you it was Ariel and it’s always been Times in the past and so you did Times and someone wants to switch? That’s just a change, not a mistake. If you’ve been told Ariel 3 times and you keep doing Times then you need to stop and examine why you keep getting it wrong, maybe it is details. So then set up systems for yourself to make the details less of a concern where you can and processes to manage them the rest of the time.

    6. only acting normal*

      By the time you finish a Masters you have, what, 20years experience in the job of “going to school”. You’re only one year into the completely different industry of “working in an office”. Don’t expect yourself to have the same level of competence (yet) as you did in your last “job”. You can and will get there, but you may need to find the right workplace to be truly comfortable.

    7. only acting normal*

      By the time you finish a Masters you have, what, 20years experience in the job of “going to school”. You’re only one year into the completely different industry of “working in an office”. Don’t expect yourself to have the same level of competence (yet) as you did in your last “job”. You can and will get there, but you may need to find the right workplace to be truly comfortable.

  104. I'm A Little Teapot*

    I started my new job this week! So far, good. It’s a really small department – about 20 overall, 10 in my office. Everyone is friendly and welcoming. They’re busy, but people are cheerful and totally willing to help. Functional environment thus far. Complete 180 from last job.

  105. Marge Gunderson*

    I’m at a total loss for how to deal with pregnancy and due dates as a college-level instructor–anyone out there with some experience in this?

    I’m 5 weeks pregnant (sooo early) and I was just asked about the next year’s course offerings. The last class of the winter quarter is March 19 and the spring quarter begins April 4….my due date is March 12. Does this mean I have to step back from teaching from that quarter? Is it completely unhinged to think I could be teaching a class that begins April 4 if I deliver sometime around the 12th? It hurts my heart to have to take off TWO quarters because of both liking my work and liking the money. Some have suggested I find a substitute for the last or first classes, but it’s not super feasible given the nature of what I teach (I am looking into it). I also don’t want to have to be disclosing to fellow teachers/administrators yet because I’m only at 5 weeks! Any advice?

    1. Peggy*

      University polices are all over the map on this, so people’s experiences will vary widely. My hunch is that you’ll be able to get a sub for the last week or so of winter quarter, and then not teach in the spring. It makes MUCH more sense (speaking as the mother of a 2yo and as a former lecturer) to take time when you have a newborn than before you give birth, assuming (touch wood) that you have an uncomplicated pregnancy.

      Trust me, you will not want to be teaching when you have a four week old and are only four weeks out from birth (esp. if you have a c-section or other complications).

      1. Peggy*

        p.s. Sorry, I missed that you said it’s hard to hire a sub. I get that, but it’s also something that has to happen in all departments sometimes – people get ill, people die, people have babies. I also deeply understand the commitment you might feel to students, and your concern about it being a suboptimal experience for them if there’s a sub for the last few classes, but again, it happens.

        I also want to say, don’t show your employer more consideration than they’re showing you. It sounds like they don’t provide paid leave? Or at least, not to you? Then you ESPECIALLY shouldn’t worry about your pregnancy potentially creating headaches for them, just because it doesn’t perfectly align with their quarter schedule.

        1. Marge Gunderson*

          ^Ha, Peggy, you called it exactly. I’m very much afraid of the sub-optimal student experience, but you are so right. I hold my classes to a much higher standard than the department does and I don’t know anyone who teaches the method I do, but I’m starting to realize I can think of ways to get around it. I also really wasn’t considering the possibility of physically being capable so soon after! Oh boy.

          No paid leave, which does make me realize especially now that I have always given them much more consideration that they’ve given me (to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of hours of extra work). The administrator’s have a great parental leave policy, instructors get nada. Ugh. Thank you! This

          1. Trig*

            To ease your sense of obligation to the students, could you shift the structure of the class a bit so that you deliver the most important material earlier in the semester, and leave the last few weeks for… I dunno, assignments with straighforward rubrics that your sub could grade and explain, without having to do as much of the very precise instructing? Arrange for some guest lecturers from the field, so maybe not teaching as much, but some kind of enrichment to show the students how they might be able to use what they learn? Something like that; I’m sure it’s all field and subject and level dependant…

          2. Peggy*

            So glad to be helpful. I spent a lot of time in academia, between the PhD and the years as a lecturer/junior administrator, and women who care about teaching and students (hi! It me!) have to be SO careful for our good will and dedication not to be exploited. It’s one of the reasons I’m not in that game anymore.

      2. Oatmeal*

        Yes, take the semester off following the birth. Three months seems long now but it isn’t and have some space to figure out the huge transitions coming your way is key. And fwiw, the hormones don’t stop with birth and if you’re anything like me you won’t quite feel like yourself for a while yet. It actually took me eight months to feel like myself again, and although I finished a diss and defended my PhD during that time it was not pretty.

    2. Nita*

      What kind of time commitment is it? If you have good backup care and only have to be physically in class for a couple of hours a day, it may be realistic. It’s a little iffy because you don’t know what kind of recovery you’ll have, though… you’ll only have three weeks to get ready. If you do decide to teach, you’ll need a lot of help at home because babies suck up basically every minute of your free time for the first couple of months. Someone would have to do all the cooking, cleaning, and maybe some child care if you’re to get enough rest and having time to grade homework. And I’m not sure if possibly having to hire help for all of that even makes sense financially!

      1. Marge Gunderson*

        1-2 classes per quarter, 3 hours in class each week, always evenings or Saturdays, 1.5 hours total commute. Husband has a super flexible schedule so he would likely be there to cover a lot of that, but if he had to turn down work it would be a loss for us because his day rate is much higher than mine. Also definitely something to think about! I was thinking it would be worth it to keep doing so that I can continue to occasionally see the outside world, but quarters are also only 3 months long. Good point on the $$$!

        1. Nita*

          That’s not too bad! My husband teaches and it’s a bit of a financial loss for us because I have to turn down work to watch the kids, but he loves it and it’s important to him, so there’s that. He used to put in so much prep time that I think it worked out to less than minimum wage per lecture, but he had to cut back because (1) the effort wasn’t being appreciated and (2) his class size kept increasing and he just couldn’t give each student that much attention. Still teaching though, despite all that!

    3. academic offspring*

      I was born mid-March to a mom who was a professor in a semester system, and as I understand it, she essentially taught her spring courses (or maybe a reduced load, but certainly she taught) on a compressed schedule in the spring semester. So, based on her due date (which was end of February–I was late), and her conviction that I would be two weeks early (whoops!), whatever she taught that semester started at the regular time but wrapped up before the middle of February–classes met for extra sessions each week, etc., like a stepped-up version of converting a semester-long class into a quarter-long class, which I’m guessing you may have already done or seen done. Obviously this might or might not be something that could be done with what you’re teaching, but it was a good solution for her.

      1. academic offspring*

        To be clear, my idea with respect to the above is that it would help you avoid having to take off the winter quarter, because it sounds like you’ll be available for most of it. So, you’d take one quarter off, and it would be spring.

    4. Bacon Pancakes*

      Late on this, but wouldn’t the last week of semester be devoted to finals anyway?
      As a mother of a 2yo and hoping for another, take the next semester. You will be glad you did when you look back and you will have a set date-back to look forward to when you are in the midst of it.

  106. former geologist current NPO CEO*

    If your organization or company has adopted a formal position AGAINST negotiating starting salary, do you have a short (paragraph or less) statement explaining why that you can share with me? I need something to add to our website and job postings. Thanks in advance!

  107. R*

    I’m running into problems swallowing my resentment for my boss as they come back. They went on an extended vacation/leave with very little notice, leaving me and my boss’s boss with a lot of things that needed to be done at the last possible minute, and the weeks leading up to that was really rude, snappish, and shoved a lot of their mistakes on to me to the point where I now get extremely anxious if something unexpected happens. I haven’t heard from them since, but they’re coming back at the end of the month, and I’ve realized that I’m still really mad at them for how all this went down. This is exacerbated by the fact that this was medical leave, and they were clearly going through a very rough time of it before they left. How can I make myself no longer resent them for what happened, and make sure we work well together for the next few years before I take on another position?

    1. Earthwalker*

      Sounds like the boss may have given you a chance to shine in front of your grandboss. I don’t suppose that’s what boss intended, but perhaps this will help you in the long run.

    2. persimmon*

      I’m confused about why you’re referring to this as both vacation and medical leave. Getting clear on that would probably help. Medical leave is not fun, usually happens on an emergency basis, and is definitely not vacation! It seems like the bad behavior on your boss’s part was before the leave, allowing so many projects to get behind rather than recognizing the need to take leave earlier. Fair to be frustrated with that–but at least make sure you’re not getting angry with someone just for being sick.

  108. egal*

    I am trying to better understand someone I work with and have more empathy for her. Polly is my more senior colleague, and many folks in our office report to her, but I don’t: she and I have the same boss. I collaborate with her and sometimes get trained by her. She tends to share *so much* about her personal life and is very bad at even feigning interest in others’ lives. When she wants to tell a personal story, she takes forever to get to the point and gets caught up in details that don’t matter. Even when we are talking about work stuff, she provides way more information than needed (which our boss has explicitly pointed out to her as constructive feedback once or twice in my earshot). Recently Polly asked me to give her feedback on something she wrote, but she did not let me lead/dominate the feedback conversation and kept interrupting me, which I found odd because that is not what I would have done in her place. Overall, it’s hard not to view her as someone who wastes my time a lot. I try to be very polite and warm with her, because I do value her as a colleague, but sometimes I end up communicating my irritation nonverbally.
    Anyway, I am hoping some folks here can help explain this kind of personality to me. Perhaps you have some traits that are similar to hers or know people who do? She has alluded to having some form of ADHD – not sure if that is relevant.

    1. AdminX2*

      People who are that bad at the social dance don’t need extra work. Keep it quick, direct, clipped even. Interruptions are met with acting as if you heard none of what she said and “As I was saying…” If she gets to a 3rd time you can stop and say “You don’t seem in a place to really be open to feedback, do you want to come back when we can focus?”

      Ditto for any of her personal stories. Find/make a break early on and say “I really need to stay on topic and focus on this work project. Is now a good time or do you want to schedule a meeting?”

      She’s not interested in meeting you halfway or finding a good way to do this- so just cut down to what it is that needs to be done and move on.

  109. Trainer Bee*

    Strength-giving comments needed, please!

    I’m currently training a new hire who, although there’s no big red flags about his work yet, he is taking longer than we hoped to get up to speed and is frustratingly green about the world of work (for example, had to explain that, no, the company will not allow you to expense the costs of your regular commute and, yes, if you’re asked to go to a meeting mid-afternoon, you are expected to come into the office or work from home in the morning and, yes, people will begin to lose their patience with you if you make the same mistake in your work which you have been told about three or four times and you are expected to learn from their feedback)

    Like I said, there’s no big red flags yet but he’s been in this ‘newbie’ period for longer than we hoped so I have a sinking feeling it’s going to go one of two ways – either he’ll get over his newbie phase and will rock his job going forward (he does have the odd moment of genius in amongst the stuff that makes you want to bang your head on your desk!) OR there’s going to be a major red flag incident that is going to have the higher ups asking some questions.

    Not sure if there is anything I can do (although if anybody has any suggestions!!) but just need to vent/need some support on taking those deep breaths and counting to ten!

    1. Brownie*

      Ouch. We had someone like that in my office who was let go after about 3 months. Afterwards my boss & grandboss admitted that it’d been a bad hire, not because she wasn’t qualified, but because my office wasn’t set up to handle someone who needed hand-holding/explicit instructions to figure out office professional norms. If possible is there someone/multiple someones who could be assigned to your new hire as general workplace advisors or mentors? That’s something which my office should have done, along with making sure that someone was checking on her several times a day as one of the professional things she didn’t know was how/when to ask for more work (sadly that resulted in her being caught by higher-ups watching makeup tutorials on YouTube during working hours which sped up the decision to let her go). We had all the mentors for how to do the job, but fell down on teaching her the back end of how professional jobs work. There’s a LOT of stuff in the AAM archives under the internship tag which your new hire would probably find very helpful.

      1. Trainer Bee*

        Oof! That’s painful!

        Actually, I sort of wonder if mentoring is part of the PROBLEM. I’m the head of the teapot division. New guy has formed a bond with Fergus. Both new guy and Fergus are supposed to generalist tea set makers. Fergus is a phenomenal teacup maker and has more knowledge about saucers than anybody else in the building but his weakness is teapots. I know this. Fergus knows this. But he’s getting worse – like, the last four or five he’s made I’ve had to ask him for major revisions, which I’ve never had to ask from him before. The issue has been flagged with my boss who is considering what to do next (Do we tell Fergus he needs to pull his finger out on teapots because it is still part of his job description but risk demotivating him on other projects? Or do we alter Fergus’ job description so he doesn’t have to do teapots anymore?)

        New guy does not get the politics of this and seems to think, because Fergus does the bare minimum on his teapot work from time to time and get away with it, so can he. That meeting in the afternoon that new guy thought he could blow off the morning for? It was one of Fergus’, the work he had to do in the morning was teapots work. It doesn’t look good, does it?

        1. Brownie*

          Ack! Yeah, new hire has the wrong mentor. Is it possible to sit down with new hire and phrase it something like “Just so you’re in the know, we’re ramping up your teapot work significantly since Fergus’s focus is on teacups and saucers. If you can, get as much knowledge about those from Fergus, but come to me for teapot knowledge.” That way Fergus still gets the ego boost of being the knowledge holder for teacups and saucers while any teapot related knowledge comes from you. Plus it’d be a good way to keep new hire from learning (any more) bad habits about teapots from Fergus. And, if Fergus continues to slip on his teapots, then that can be addressed separately from the new hire.

          I’ve been the new person on the team who uses the wrong person as an example of how things work and oh man, that bit me so hard I almost got fired. (“What do you mean this is time card fraud? This is how Wakeen does it every week and he’s been here for 15 years and showed me how to do it.” Turns out Wakeen had never been looked at as someone thought 15 years of being here meant he knew what he was doing. Whoops!) Now I think of part of the new hire’s boss’s job as assigning appropriate mentors to the new hire instead of letting whoever is most gregarious/has free time do it.

    2. Earthwalker*

      I had one of those. He turned around, learned what he didn’t know, and turned out to be better than others who started with him who I’d thought were much more promising. Give up on him if it’s hopeless but don’t give up too soon.

    3. Kathenus*

      Just suggest being very clear with direction and constructive feedback, and doing it early on when a problem is seen versus not mentioning ‘little’ things, since those add up and affect the perception people have of him and his work..

  110. AnneShirley*

    Does anyone have some favorite resources for switching to freelance for the first time, specifically in the digital marketing/social media management field? I’m particularly curious about managing pricing & scope of work when you’re not talking about a single or easily quantifiable deliverable (e.g., managing our Facebook per month vs delivering a new logo).

    Background: Currently, my position is about 25% marketing, 75% admin support (small business). Depending on my SO’s job search, we may be moving states in the next year. My current work loves me, and I have a mentor here who has supported my career fumblings after my academic career went nowhere. My mentor just asked me to consider taking my company on as a client for marketing & social media remotely after I move, and even offered networking assistance with her small business contacts in order to help build my client base. It seems like an ideal path for me, but I’ve never seriously freelanced before and trying to find trustworthy resources on the internet is like drinking out of a fire hydrant. TIA!

    1. A Consultant*

      It sounds like you do have a really good base to get started. Good luck! My first piece of advice is to step away from internet resources, and look for a good reference book. Ideally one that takes into account digital marketing/social media consulting, but not necessarily. You are looking for guides with the fundamentals of starting up a business consulting practice. Look for something with concrete guidance, worksheets, templates. I’m in a different niche field, where there’s a reference book targeted to our work, but the fundamentals are the fundamentals. It’s very helpful.

      Broadly speaking, you’ll have a choice between billing based on hours worked and billing a fixed fee for a defined service. Either way, you need to figure out your consulting rate and how much time you think it will take to provide the service (because an hourly contract will have a not to exceed amount). So, if you think it takes an average of 10 hours a month to maintain this particular FB page, and your rate is $50/hour, then your fee for the deliverable of an updated FB page is $500/month. So… setting your rate is key. Simplified…. Rate = (Take-Home Salary You’d Like + Overhead Expenses + Health Insurance + Self-Employment Tax) / Max Billable Hours. And then judge if that is market competitive and adjust. A reference book will give you much better detail than that!

      And in your case, the service can be the deliverable. You just need to describe the concrete things a client would see as you “manage Facebook page”. (# or frequency of posts? Timeliness of posts / responses to posts?) And it will be important for you, from a business perspective, to be able to describe the awesome concrete things a client actually gets from your more nebulous-sounding services. It’s part of your business marketing. :-) Good luck! If you can get it rolling, I have found it to be a great and rewarding career path.

      1. AnneShirley*

        Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply! I will search for a reference book first and foremost. Appreciate your time!

  111. Just Some Guy, yakniw*

    Was turned down for a position after three rounds of interviews. I said thanks and have a great weekend.

    Part of me is annoyed that there was no specific feedback other than other candidates were more suited to the business requirements.

    1. Just Some Guy, yakniw*

      Mostly just a vent, and course I screw up the user name.

      Friday the 13th, amirite?

  112. I Love Thrawn*

    Work clothing question – I wear capris in the summer, because I am short and nothing else is the right length. What shoes to wear, besides sandals?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Do you like wearing heels? A simple heel is fine with capris, strappy or pump. I’m not big on heels so I wear mine with nice ballet flats. Either works.

    4. Rainy*

      Espadrilles are great with capris–you say no heels, but flatforms are back in and flatform espadrilles are adorable and would be very lengthening with capris.

      Ballet flats of course are a gimme–consider something with a bit of ankle strap detailing for the interest. Mules are very on trend right now, especially flat slipper mules.

      Also–don’t laugh–booties. I see booties all the time with shorts and cropped trousers, and if you get something perforated or strappy they won’t even be that hot.

    5. academic offspring*

      Depending on the length (this works better with pants that hit closer to the ankle versus the mid-calf), a “skimmer” can work. I’d describe skimmers as sort of a loafer/ballet flat hybrid, or a (to me) much better-looking version of the “smoking slipper” style shoes that had a moment a few years ago.

    6. Kathenus*

      Rock Spring shoes are amazing, especially the Cape Town style. Woven elastic, lots of color options, but can be hard to find especially in the US. Bought my first pair on a trip to Denmark and fell in love, and have bought a bunch of styles online since, the Cape Town is by far the most comfortable for me.

    7. only acting normal*

      I were mine with Mary Janes, a daintier pair of brogues or oxfords (I have some Softinos which are very lightweight and soft leather).

  113. Llama Wrangler*

    Can anyone help me figure out if this oddly specific office supply actually exists?

    I like having a paper notebook or notepad, and I also like printing out a paper to-do list every day. I think either of these two things would work but I can’t actually find them:
    (a) A notebook with a clip on it so I can clip my to do list in every day. Ideally, this would be a “swing clip” (like a report cover), or a clip-board type attachment, not a hole punch?
    (b) A padfolio-type design that allows me to slide a notepad in on one side and clip my to-do list into the other?

    Alternately, if you have a system similar to mine, what do you do? I was previously using a binder, but I can’t really write in binders because I’m left handed, and I had some pretty shoddy systems to hold my to-do-list in place.

    1. anon 4 this*

      I use a disc planner. it has pages you can move around and you can print onto paper that you can add in whenever you need to. there are a few versions out there. Happy Planner is the name brand but I prefer the office depot stuff which is just called Arc. I recommend looking into it!

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Oh, yeah, I’ve looked into those before. It definitely comes closest to what I want, but the challenge is that with shared printers, it’s hard for me to print something on special paper on a daily basis. But I wonder if one of those would have a clip in it (or some other modification that allows for the insertion of 8.5×11 paper.

          1. nom*

            Yes, this is exactly what I do.

            I use disc-bound notebooks for most of my work, and I just punch everything. Haven’t needed to buy special pre-punched paper once.

            I do suggest buying both the bigger punch (and preferably one that is metal instead of plastic) for making “filler” paper, and also a smaller portable punch (1 or 2 sheet capacity) for one-off or preprinted sheets.

            If you’re in the US, I like the Staples brand best. But they’re all pretty much interchangeable, and you can get some good deals online.

    2. Q without U*

      A bit of a hack, but can you get a padfolio with a pocket, slide a clipboard into the pocket, and use that for your to-do list? They make some pretty lightweight clipboards and you could probably permanently attach one to the other side of your padfolio without too much difficulty. They also sell standalone clipboard clips, including the flat kind, so maybe just attaching one of those to the padfolio could work?

    4. Llama Wrangler*

      Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins solved this for me! In case anyone else is curious, the thing I was looking for is called a “clipfolio”. The reason I couldn’t see it before is because I was having a hard time visually distinguishing clipfolios (clipboard on the front, pocket for notepad on the inside) from padfolios with inside clips.

    5. Red Reader*

      I have several padfolios where the cover has a clipboard clip on it, then the inside has a pad and a pocket. Would that do? I got mine at Target.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Yes! That’s what I want/found. When I was initially searching, for some reason I could only find ones that had clipboards on the inside to hold the pad. Do your Target ones hold up okay?

        1. Red Reader*

          They do! I have three, both of which are a couple years old. They’re … heavy fiberboard? Two are colored (one green and one purple) with gold spots, the other is brown kind of Kraft-paper looking with little feathers on it. So, I mean, they’re not like super high-end professional looking, but they were all under $10 as I recall. I think as long as you didn’t get them sopping wet or like, use them to prop open windows or something, they’d hold up just fine for plenty long enough to justify the cost.

    6. only acting normal*

      Paperchase do padfolios too. Nice quality and variety of designs, in A4 and A5 sizes.

  114. junipergreen*

    I don’t think it would hurt to mention the issues so long as you did so in a way that was calm and constructive (so as not to burn any reference-giving bridges!). Theoretically your exit interview will be recorded by the organization and potentially reviewed by higher-ups, so you’d be helping build the case some day for whichever honorable soul finally endeavors to fire the problematic employee. (At the very least adding your voice to the record lends more credence to a financial case that it’s more expensive to lose good employees than to keep the toxic ones.)

  115. Rock Prof*

    Interview question, and I feel like I’ve seen this discussed before but haven’t been able to find the specific advice (it could be I’m being bad at searching right now). I had a phone interview for a position at a science-based non-profit that provides various support and scientific services for academics, and the position involves having your hands in a lot of different projects with different deadlines and outcomes. . I’m currently a professor and have only ever worked in academia, since doing an internship in a lab in high school, but I’m interested in getting more into the academic and scientific administration side of things. I recently starting directing an academic program, and I thought I’d start applying for different positions in a few years when I have more experience, but this one kind of came out of the blue.
    I felt prepared and comfortable with most of the questions. But one of them kind of caught me off guard, though I think I probably should have foreseen it: they asked something like, “what are your methods for staying organized on multiple projects?” I think I gave a kind of rambly answer about balancing the academic trifecta of research, service, and teaching and how I can actually be more productive when I have the ability to pause working on a project I might be stuck on and go jump into a different one for a bit. I think I might have mentioned to-do lists and how I’m very motivated by external deadlines, which immediately felt like something much to nitty-gritty for what they were asking.
    What are they actually looking for in this type of question? Any advice for what to focus on, for the future, and what not to mention?

    1. fposte*

      I ask this question in pretty much every interview. I’m hiring at a very different level, but here’s my goal: I want to signal that that is an important thing in this job; I want people to be able to give me specifics on how they schedule/handle/break up their time and focus, so that they’re not just saying “Oh, yes, I’m fine with that” but are supporting that contention.

      I don’t know at your level whether they’d be asking for to-do lists or not, but they’re definitely the kind of thing I want to hear about. Also if you use Trello or any kanban style approach that’s worth mentioning too.

      1. Rock Prof*

        This is great to know! I probably messed up this interview then. I know nothing about either trello, except that it exists as an app, or kanban; I’ve never used any project-tracking systems before. All of the institutions I’ve worked at have never cared about how productivity is achieved, as long as it seems like your work is getting done. It sometimes feels like the only real deadline (for me) at the university is getting grades turned in at the end of the semester! Everything else seems malleable, for better or worse. Even my major funding agency doesn’t have deadlines for proposal submissions: it’s just rolling submissions.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I tend to respond to this with a (very brief) overview of how I organize my time and work. I primarily use Gettings Things Done, so I talk a little bit about that, but mostly I just talk through how I think through my week and schedule time for various projects.

  116. BookCocoon*

    My hourly position was just made exempt, which I’m very excited about — it’s something I’ve been wanting for years. I’ve never come close to needing overtime and it just caused problems every time I had something unusual, like a department lunch, where I then had to find another time in my day to take a break so I wouldn’t get in trouble for not taking a break. I was also offered a secondary role at the organization that would have taken a few hours a week but was told I couldn’t take it because it would put me in overtime.

    So here’s my question. Well, a couple questions. In the information from HR, I was given explicit guidance that any time I take away from work during the work day either needs to be recorded as sick/vacation hours or made up another time during the week. This is literally what I already do as an hourly employee. My supervisor was excited for me to make the change to exempt because I’ve frequently expressed frustration that our insurance company / medical provider is only open during work hours, but this literally doesn’t change anything as far as I can tell? Also, I was approved at the beginning of the summer to work an adjusted schedule, so I work longer days 4 days a week and get one afternoon off, in part to address the issue of having to always take leave time or make a one-off schedule adjustment for appointments. My supervisor said I shouldn’t have to change this schedule now that I’m exempt. But I’m wondering… I really don’t have enough work to fill all my hours. This has been a problem everywhere I’ve ever worked — I just work really efficiently. On the days I’m staying an extra hour, I’m usually just killing time after everyone leaves. Do you think I can just leave if I don’t have any work today, but still take my one afternoon a week off? Or is that going to make everyone resent me?

    1. BRR*

      I get the position you’re in but I would try and stay away from essentially just taking one afternoon off every week.

  118. John Childermass*

    A reference related question I was hoping someone could weigh in on:
    One job application asks for the length of time you’ve known your reference. For a reference I worked with for a year two years ago, and haven’t kept in touch with, do I say one year or three years?

    1. snorp*

      They probably mean the former (what was the length of your substantive relationship with the reference), but I would sidestep the question with formatting:

      Your Reference Name – Head Teapot Designer, Teapots Inc
      410-555-5555, yrf@teapotsinc.com
      Supervisor at Teapots Inc, June 1900 – August 1902

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would say one year, as that’s the length of time they will be able to speak to when called for a reference.

  119. Foreign Octopus*

    I know online English classes are meant to be more flexible but is it too much to ask for a little bit of courtesy from my students?

    I’ve just had a student answer my Skype call whilst in the car with her friends and it was so loud that I couldn’t hear a word she was saying. She pays a lot of money for these classes and I really don’t understand her casual approach to it. It feels super unprofessional to me. I don’t mind taking classes when you’re out and about in a café or something but I do expect you to be concentrating on the class.

    1. Forking great username*

      Was she expecting the call? If so, then that’s definitely not okay and not the norm among online students.

    2. Anne (with an “e”)*

      Why is she taking the class? Is someone (a parent, an employer) forcing her to take the class? Is she truly motivated to learn? Or, is she just putting in “face time”?

      I teach Spanish to English speakers in a private school in the US. Some of my students truly want to master the language, some see it as a graduation requirement or a requirement to apply to college, others take it only because their parents force them.

  120. Work Comp Question*

    I have an employee that several supervisors feels is abusing work comp benefits. This employee fell at work. The doctors were willing to release her back to work the next day, but she insisted they not release her just yet. They waited a day and didn’t officially release her from their care (as she didn’t want to be), but allowed her to go back to work with zero restrictions. In her subsequent follow-up appointments, the doctors want to release her, but she is stating no because her back hurts and she needs therapy. After a few appointments of her requesting this, they have signed off on therapy. Our issue is that this is an office job with zero lifting, but she does moonlight for a job where she is lifting heavy items regularly. She has not stopped this job due to any issues with her back hurting. The question is, do we have the legal right to inform our work comp company that she is working nights with heavy lifting? We believe that if her back is causing issues, it’s probably a result of the second job, but we are the ones paying for it.

    1. Temperance*

      This definitely seems like a question that you should ask your attorney or whoever manages your comp policy. I think it sounds like something you would be obligated to tell your insurer, but employment law is fact-specific.

      To me, it does sound like she’s trying to get your company to pay for her other job.

    2. Legal Rugby*

      You probably need to tell them. I would do it through your General Counsel, or HR, though. But for some work comp carriers, knowing this and not telling them is enough to lose coverage.

    3. irene adler*

      I’d say this is fraud if she’s able to lift at her second job but claims issues with her back with her first job.
      Since the fall, are you sure she’s actually performing physical work at her second job?
      It’s worth reporting as they will find out if she’s actually injured or she’s trying to get free medical treatment for issues sustained beyond your work place.

  121. LDN Layabout*

    Tips for getting handover notes done? I have 2 weeks left (from 4+ originally given) and I have ONE (1) process mapped.

    The problem is that I inevitably get pulled in to put out fires and my manager is getting antsy that I won’t get everything done but he’s also giving me extra work to do.

    1. SarahKay*

      Could you agree to start an hour earlier than everyone else (and leave earlier too!) so that you have a clear hour every day to yourself where you can power on with handover notes? Or move your working day an hour later than everyone else, if you’re not a morning person.
      Or could you agree with your manager that you’ll work from home for one of those weeks, and do the handover notes there?
      How good is your relationship with your manager? If you point out that you can do the extra work, or do the handover notes, but not both, is he likely to listen?

      1. LDN Layabout*

        Unfortunately I already have flextime and come in before everyone else, it’s just often spent on dealing with overnight issues.

        Honestly, we have a good relationship but I think I’m going to have to risk him being peeved and say straight out that I’m not planning to work extra hours during my notice. Which is how he’s hinted he wants this handled.

    2. RickTq*

      Refuse to join the fire fights and focus on your handover documentation. The team will have to function without you in two weeks anyway.

      You also need to lay it on the line to your manager she can have your documentation complete when you depart in two weeks or the new Shiny Thing today and incomplete docs when you walk out the door for the last time.

      1. LDN Layabout*

        Yeah, I’m going to have to start pushing back, both on that and on the assumption that I’ll work extra hours (which I don’t mind doing occasionally but nope, I am l e a v i n g. If you wanted a longer notice period from me, you should have promoted me to the level that makes you give three months)

        1. RickTq*

          I’m assuming you would have needed all four weeks with full time attention to complete your handover notes, and having 1 process done in two weeks is only a fraction of what *should* be documented when you leave. Clearly your manager’s priorities are different.

          At this point I’d cut back to straight time hours only and work on tasks as assigned with your turnover document a fill-in effort since that is what your manager is demanding.

          At quitting time your last day you are done, down tools, and walk away. You followed your manager’s direction, the state of the turnover work is his problem.

  122. UtOh!*

    Sh*tty coworker is being more helpful and actually talking to me more, he must have been threatened enough to try to turn things around. It has not changed my mind about him at all, he still sucks.

  123. Chalupa Batman*

    I am SO proud of myself right now, because I requested a raise for the first time ever this week. I work in a field where bureaucracy is a massive barrier to just about anything, so I’d given myself permission to assume that my raises weren’t negotiable (I know, dumb). Well, I realized that I love my job, but I’m never going to make it to my financial goals with that attitude, so I sucked it up and asked my boss what I have to do to get more money. I found out that while HR holds a lot of the cards, they don’t hold all of them, and my boss is going to try to play the ones we have. No promises have been made, but I advocated for myself about pay!

  124. Legal Rugby*

    So I took a job about 10 months ago, and my executive director unexpectedly left – I knew she was planning on leaving within a year, but in four weeks we went from “i’ll be here until mid 2019” to “I found a job, I’ve sold my house and I’m moving!” There was… not a lot in place to support me. My new temporary boss has been amazing, and I really love working with her. She’s very helpful in one on ones, and has made a point of stopping by our office, which is physically removed from the rest of our company. She’s been great about helping me establish myself as the interim, and figuring out what I can handle on my own (bandwidth issues) and what she can take off my plate (experience/administrative level stuff.)

    Here’s my dilemma. Due to the rarity of our field (there are three of us in the whole company of 1000+ people that do this) my new direct boss is the VP for HR. She’s amazing, and has been incredibly patient with me. However… my admin is a nightmare. Constantly late, constantly convinced the world is ending. I’ve already had to speak to her about recording her time card accurately, and not answering emails from home to make up time – both things my old boss let slide. My old boss loved her, because our admin was devoted to her in turn. I don’t think our new boss, when they get here will love the admin. I have full authority from the VP of HR to do the day to day tasks, and she has been very supportive in helping me develop strategies for the problems with the admin that I actually bring to her. I’ve been trying to tackle one problem at a time, and I’ve been working mostly on not derailing whole projects because the admin has come up with another worst case scenario.

    Now, I’m trying to decide if I need to lay it all out on the table. I like our admin as person, and I’m not sure how much of this is different working styles. I feel like a tattletale, and a managing failure, if I go to the VP of HR and say “look, I’m working on the stuff we spoke about for her, but I really think you need to know the full picture about how bad this is.” I trust her, and I don’t think she would just fire the admin outright, but I don’t know if I have the mental capacity to manage the admin back into company norms while also picking up all the pieces left by my boss’ exit.

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      It’s not tattling, you’re presenting a work issue that is affecting you. You definitely need to tell the VP that you’ve been trying the strategies you worked out to address the admin problem, but the issue has persisted. Presenting the full scope of the problem is necessary – since you’ve already spoken with the VP about the issue, maybe think of it as following back up with them about it, but definitely don’t think of it as tattling.

  125. FreshFlowersandGoodBooks*

    I work for a great company in a role I love, in a relatively small department. For the past two years, every position that would be an advancement opportunity for someone in my current role has been created for specific people, without an open job search (ie – they haven’t opened and haven’t had other internal OR external candidates, haven’t created public job descriptions, etc.). While I appreciate that people have been noticed and promoted, it has been frustrating that I’m not able to take a swing at any of the openings. We’re currently undergoing some leadership transitions, and my boss and at least one other person of our leadership team is leaving. I am considering privately lobbying our senior leadership for additional responsibilities and a promotion – but this furthers an unhealthy balance in our department. Should I go for it?

    1. Legal Rugby*

      I would consider lobbying them for more openness in the hiring process. If you are creating positions to retain people once or twice, okay. But once you start doing that all the time, it becomes impossible to replace people, and your reporting structure gets all out of whack. It also generates a LOT of resentment. I would consider advocating for mandatory open periods for ALL positions, at least internally. Probably also for a minimum of process. Say, all jobs must be open internally for at least a week, and if there is more than one applicant, it cannot be filled without at least an interview. You would still have people that are hired for the jobs intended for them – but it might also open the playing field.

      If you just go advocate for this for you, if it all comes falling down in the future, you might get stuck with the backlash!

  126. Fenchurch*

    I’m having such a weird week. My (TERRIBLE) manager has a new boss who seems amazing. I almost got my hopes up that I could salvage this position and turn it into the job I imagined it would be when I began. Then things just got terrible.

    My only other coworker has been dropping A LOT of balls on our SLAs with clients and missing deadlines and it’s fallen on me to clean up a lot of the problems. I felt bad because she was all by herself for 2 weeks, but I’m over it as they have continued to occur well past my return.

    I had an interview on Tuesday that I thought went well, but I am also afraid to get my hopes up there.

    I’m stuck in limbo right now and it’s hard to see when this will end. I just hope whatever happens I will finally not be stressed and unhappy all the time.

  127. memyselfandi*

    I have an employee who caries on intense whispered conversation in the hallways with other employees. It doesn’t really bother me. It’s not as if I think she is talking about me. But she is very dramatic and she looks like what she is talking about is some sort of crisis, even when she is not whispering in corners, just having a normal conversation. To me that is just the way she is, but I wonder what top management thinks of her when they see it. What do other people think. Do you think it looks bad to be seen whispering in the hallway?

  128. nep*

    I feel like the only thing to do is give up on the job search.
    Except it’s not. And I won’t. Of course the only thing to do is keep looking, keep applying.
    But DAMN does it get tough to dig up some self-confidence when one has been rejected so many times.
    Part of the process, I know. This is nothing new… Just venting a bit.
    Onward and upward. Keep fighting I shall.
    All the best, fellow searchers.

    1. irene adler*

      Do something nice for yourself this weekend.
      Then dive back into the job search next week.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’m with you. I had to mentally separate the process from my self-esteem as much as I can – it’s not 100% effective, but it does help me to take an approach more like, “whatever, I’ll apply and see what happens” than “Ooh I really want this job, please please please!”

      At this point I’m more struggling with the feeling of what if I get an offer and the job is awful in some way, at this point I really need to take it anyway. So I’m just a tad relieved when I don’t hear back on jobs with terrible commutes or that sound tedious…

      Good luck to you!

      1. nep*

        Great point…It really does help to have more of an attitude of ‘I’ll apply, put my best out there, and see what happens.’
        I hear you–some days I think I would take ab.so.lute.ly anything. But I always come around to thinking: I’ve been at this for so long, I can’t just settle and stick myself in a job where I’d be miserable. And back and forth it goes.
        Thanks and best of luck to you.

    3. Fenchurch*

      I totally understand. I hope things get better for you, try to do some self-affirmations. I know it seems dumb, but it’s a good way to build some confidence up. Remember the things that are great about you, keep them fresh on your mind!

  129. Dinosaur Kale*

    Anybody else dealing with shame spirals when they get completely normal feedback? How do you handle the logic/emotion disconnect?

    I got feedback about some things to improve on for the first time this week (been here almost a year, so it’s definitely time!) Logically I know that it’s a normal part of work, I’m not a failure, it will be fine. It was delivered along with a lot of positive aspects of my work.

    The irrational part of me is hating on myself, convinced everybody else knows what a bad worker I am, assuming my boss thinks I’m terrible at this, etc. I’m getting flashbacks to my toxic job where I was always criticized and nothing was good enough.

    Here’s hoping this all gets easier with time. Ugh.

    1. Dino*

      I argue with my brain rather than emotionally disconnect when I notice the shame spiral thoughts.

      “You’re a terrible worker and everyone knows it.” Why, just because I was told that I could improve in X? I’m doing phenomenally in T, U, and V, which are 85% of my job duties. And how would I have known that I needed to improve X while doing so well at everything else?
      “You should just know. I bet everyone else knows and you’re stupid for having had to be told.” Well, I didn’t know and now I do. Is mindreading a reasonable expectation for ANYONE to have of me?
      “No, but X is critically important and you should have known.” Okay, Jerk-Brain, keep being ridiculous. I’m going to be productive and research how to improve X.

    2. LQ*

      I segregate the time to feel shame. And I try really hard to make that time be not at home time, and ideally not at work time. Going to a specific coffee shop, the shame coffee shop for a shame coffee and 15 minutes of wallowing in feeling like the worst ever, horrible, awful and just a failure. And then I go back to work and I’m not allowed to feel that anymore. It’s imperfect. But the more I can segregate it from my life the better I am. I used to do this as a first 10 minutes home after work. But it really made it seep into my home life more, doing it at the shame coffee shop helps, as does the short walk there and back. It’s imperfect but all things are.

    3. OldJules*

      This week, I picked a squash too early at the work garden and so the team leader chatted me about it (using IM, we weren’t even face to face). At first I felt super defensive but you know what? Everyone screw up sometimes. And it really depends on your work culture. If you are in the work environment that is supportive of improvements without the toxicity with it (aka let’s dog pile the loser), I’d take it in stride and say, ‘I learn new things, every day.’ It’s a mantra for me now. As for the toxic job, it will take a while for you to get over it. It’s practically PTSD when you move from a toxic environment to a healthy one. You will get there. All it takes it one more positive experience after another.

  130. dwigt*

    How do you deal with a colleague that is always joking and/or sarcastic? Especially when it’s someone who ranks above you. It’s never mean spirited, just…annoying. For instance, I called and asked when wanted to run through a report with me today. Their response was, “Oh, do we have to? Let’s just not do that today.” The report MUST be run today, and they know that. I just need a quick chat to schedule a time, not chat and joke for five minutes. I already tried sticking to email, but they are difficult to reach quickly through anything but a phone call. I have to work closely with this person, even though they are not my direct supervisor. I want to preserve this relationship and make it positive, especially since their predecessor was notoriously impossible to work with, but I can already feel my patience running thin.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Smile and move on with what you are asking. Smiling is not necessary but sometimes it serves as a brief acknowledgement of “ah! you were joking!’ and then you can get right on with the task you need. Mostly I would just ignore comments like this and view them in your mind as filler noise, and not things that require an actual response.

  131. The Person from the Resume*

    So a talk with my boss this weeks lead me to think I have a bit of imposter syndrome. Basically I think I do a good – very good job, but I see my faults clearly and know where I can improve. She said I was very good to great at my job and should be applying for promotions. At one point she asked if I think she gives kudos all the time and it made me go “huh” because based on her personality no she doesn’t give false complements. But I have regularly gotten a good bit from her even when I was depressed and having a bad time at work. I also find myself frustrated with subordinates and I wonder why they can’t do better at tasks I delegate to them. Now I wonder if my standards are just super high for myself and others.

    I have to think on this more and it’s kind of a paradigm shift. This went along with clear statement I should be applying for a promotion which I don’t know if I want. Do I want more responsibility? OTOH if I am actually already performing a higher level a promotion may pay me more for the same amount of stress in my work life. Huh?

    1. anonagain*

      That doesn’t really sound like imposter syndrome to me. I think it’s basically inevitable that you will see yourself a bit differently than others do. It sounds like your self-assessment and your boss’s assessment of you aren’t a million miles off, which is the big thing. The promotion issue sounds like it’s as much a matter of figuring out what you want as anything.

      The only thing I would say is that since you have higher standards for yourself than your boss does, I think you want to be sure that you have reasonable expectations of your own employees. You probably do, but it’s good to be sure about that if certain things come really easily to you.

  132. INeedANap*

    So, I work in a large university. My desk is set up so that my computer monitor faces away from the door, but the desk itself is kind of angled. There is no good way to set my office up otherwise, so moving the desk wouldn’t be an option. We have an open door policy, and it would look a little weird to close my door for long stretches.

    My issue is that students will come in my office with a question (I don’t work directly with students, so it’s usually for directions or something like that and not a pre-planned appoitment) and come behind my desk to talk to me. I get that it feels really formal to stand on the other side of the desk like that, but I am usually working on confidential things. So it’s a real issue if I have something confidential on my screen, and a student suddenly enters my office and comes around the desk. It’s worse if I have the papers themselves spread out, because I can’t just sweep them off the desk and hide them.

    Is there any polite way to verbally stop them from coming around, and keep them on the other side of the desk? It usually happens so fast, and it feels weird to say “Please stay away from my desk”, but it’s happening often enough that I am trying to find a solution.

    1. H.C.*

      Is it possible to have the door partially open? That way students still know they can come in, but you will get a little more heads up from hearing the door opening. (You may also want to consider “please knock before entering” signage).

      Also, strategically placed mirrors at your desk (ideally near your computer monitor so it’s in your peripheral vision) so you can tell if someone’s approaching you.

    2. Beatrice*

      Can you make sitting/standing on the other side of the desk from you more inviting? Make sure there’s an obvious place for them to sit, if possible. If you have any decor on your desk with an obvious front/back, like a picture or a figurine, that can be arranged to face them when they’re positioned where you want them, that can be a subconscious nudge that they belong there. If you have any items on your desk that are intended for student visitors (a sign in sheet, a cup of pens, a box of tissues), make sure they’re easily accessible where you want the students to be, and not accessible from behind your desk. And can you use an object to narrow the walkway to get behind your desk, that you can easily move when you need to come and go? Even something as simple as moving a trash can or leaning a project on a posterboard against the wall might help.

      1. INeedANap*

        “And can you use an object to narrow the walkway to get behind your desk, that you can easily move when you need to come and go?”

        GENIUS. I have just the thing – a little table on wheels that I could roll over to both give myself more space to work on and to also block the walk way behind my desk.

        I actually have kind of tallish desk “walls” so that the desk surface isn’t visible unless you’re where I am behind the desk. Those are the main problem, I think, because unless you’re right next to me I am very blocked off if you’re trying to have a conversation. But they’re there for a reason – so the person I’m having a conversation with can’t see what’s on the desk; at the same time, that’s prompting people to go behind the desk which defeats the purpose.

        So I think blocking off the walkway to get behind the desk is the best path. Much better than my original plan, which was yelling STAY AWAY MORTAL CHILD whenever a student approached.

        1. LQ*

          Oh, I had the sort of slightly tallish “walls” and I had people come into my cube. I remedied it by putting a few magnetic things that are fidget things and a little magnetic candy jar thing on the top of the wall so people got the idea “this is for standing at.” If you don’t have a magnet thing you might be able to get something like a coat hook and hang something that is …designed for people to look at and be stopped by in front. I also put a very small white board where people could leave notes and always left up a note that said LQ is awesome or something of the like on there so that it was pre-started so no one hesitated to stop and grab the market and write on it if I needed 2 more minutes to finish something before I helped them. I really carefully concocted the “this is where you stand” spot because yeah, I had lots of people coming up into my cube.

        2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          I would have loved to shout STAY AWAY MORTAL CHILD when I was working in my former job, which had the exact same problem – we were housed on a floor that used to belong to the computer science dept, in a big building that held the College of Engineering and lots of classroom space, so students would wander into our offices ALL THE TIME looking for their CS profs.

    3. SarahKay*

      If you can’t stop them from coming round to your side of the desk, have you considered filter screens for your monitors. My HR lead has them and they’re very effective; you really need to be very nearly at right angles to the monitor to be able to see what’s on it. His desk is set up against a wall, so if I need to talk to him I’m inevitably on the same side of the desk, and I can’t see a thing on the monitors. (Just to be clear, I wouldn’t usually look anyway, but often I’m there because we’re working on something together, and he has to move one of the screens before I can see what he’s pointing to on the monitor.)
      It doesn’t save you on the paperwork stuff, but it might help in terms of confidentiality otherwise.

  133. Nacho*

    I work in a support role, and part of my job is answering question for newer workers about our policies and procedures. Old boss had very explicit instructions not to answer any questions that could be answered by our internal FAQs to discourage agents from relying on us before checking for themselves. Instead, I was supposed to pretty much be an asshole to them and avoid directly answering any of their questions. I do this for a year, with my boss never giving me any feedback and telling me that anyone who doesn’t like how I do things just has a problem with my “direct nature” and that she isn’t bothering to pass along any complaints that I get because they’re all worthless.

    Now about a month ago, bosses all do an internal shift bid, and I get swapped to New Boss. New Boss gets 3 complaints about me in short order, and sits me down/tells me I’m on thin ice because I’m being an asshole and people are complaining about me. How do I convince New Boss that the only reason I was being an asshole is because old boss told me to act that way?

    1. Murphy*

      “Previously, I was instructed quite clearly not to answer any questions that could be answered via the FAQ. In those cases, I’ve typically done X and Y. Moving forward, how would you like me to handle those types of requests?”

      If your instructions have changed, you need to be told.

  134. EddieSherbert*

    Anyone work from home where their SO also works from home? SO and I recently moved further from my job for their schooling, and my work is letting me work from home half the week (instead of having over an hour commute every day! Whoo!). But with SO in school, they are home a lot working on homework/thesis stuff.

    In general, I’ve always preferred working in the office over working at home (I get distracted too easily at home) and now SO is usually home when I’m trying to work… and I’ve found it extra distracting (even if they’re not really being loud/talking to me)!

    We rent, so the second bedroom is our SHARED office at the moment. I have kicked SO out of the office a couple times and shut the door, but feel bad about it!

    Any tips?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I work from home and so does my husband about 60% of the time, and there is NO WAY this would work if we were sharing an office. Can you have separate work spaces, even if one of them is just the dining room table or the main bedroom? Maybe you offer to take the less desirable space since you’re the one who’s having trouble with the current set-up?

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I think that’s going to have to be the solution – I’d probably have to offer/ask to move my whole desk though – I mostly do video editing and am very attached to my three large monitors (and hate working on just my laptop). Excessive but essential! *haha*

    2. Stuck*

      My husband and I can’t work from home at the same time. We have one home office (little loft area on the 2nd floor so it’s open the rest of the apartment) and we basically murder each other when we both try to get work done in there together. He’s always had an office with a door to himself throughout his career so sharing space isn’t something he’s learned how to deal with. And I find him way more distracting than my coworkers (even when he’s just working normally) for whatever reason.

      He teleworks 50% of the time and I telework as needed. We try to stagger it so it doesn’t happen often that we’re both home at the same time working. If we’re both home working together, I lock myself in the bedroom. I’d rather work on the bed than deal with the distractions. If I had to set-it up long-term, I’d vote for two places with doors that close if you can make it happen. Embrace the standing desk using the kitchen counter?

      1. EddieSherbert*

        So much more distracting than coworkers! It’s strange how that works. I’ll have to talk to them about staggering the room use… The standing “desk” is a good idea – I do like those!

    3. Persimmons*

      Good lord, I’d be a widow after a week of sharing a home office. This cannot work. Trade off using the office and use the kitchen table/couch/literally anywhere else in the off times.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Haha, can I just say I am SO GLAD other people get it!! My SO has been nice/accommodating… while also making me feel like I’m completely ridiculous about this *big huff*

        But they are very much a people-person and aren’t even slightly bothered by it (one of those people that basically never needs “alone” time, while I’ve always had a designated weekly “me” night since we moved in together).

        1. Persimmons*

          I feel you. My idea of a great weekend is one in which I didn’t utter a word out loud. Spouse could happily monologue for hours to anyone who will listen, including postal carriers and grocery store clerks.

    4. Red Reader*

      Oh, god no. I work from home full time and one of my housemates does 3-4 days a week. If we didn’t have separate workspaces (I have an office, he has a desk set up in the basement) I’d have one fewer housemate and have to pay his share of the rent. :-P

      Could you at least put up a privacy screen down the middle of the room?

    5. Hamburke*

      I used to work from home (switched jobs) and hubby is 100% remote as well. We each had a separate office. It’s the only way it would work for us.

    6. Paquita*

      My sister and her husband are now both working from home. They both also have ‘set’ hours, no flexibility. He and my brother rent a small office space to use. Brother can work from anywhere he has cell phone coverage but they both like having a dedicated ‘work space’. The separation of home and work is good for all involved. Sister uses the ‘home office’ and loves having the house to herself because she is on the phone all day. The cost for BIL and DB to rent the space is well worth it to them.

    7. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Yeah, this wouldn’t work for me, either. When I first moved in with my now-husband we had a setup like this, and as we were both graduate students at the time we were trying to both be at our desks, side-by-side, working at home. I got pretty much nothing at all done, because he would talk to me, show me videos, laugh at funny stuff he saw while “taking a break”, and generally just distract me all day long. Even if I had headphones on he would start talking to me and interrupt me.

      I was so glad when we moved out of that place and he got a job.

      If I understand your setup, you have one room as a bedroom and another as an office? Could you get something like a very tiny laptop desk for the bedroom for yourself, and shift things around to accomodate it?

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        Ah, I just re-read and saw that you have three monitors. What about a room divider screen between your desks?

  135. Old Guy with New Job*

    I’m hoping for scripts to use in my new job for when people give me feedback/information/suggestions/directions of what to do. I want to start my new job on the right foot.

    Background: I’ll be starting a new job that requires everyone to begin in the same role, working with a team. It’s a good way to onboard people given that there are different ways to do the work, and it’s important that everyone at company be on the same page in how to handle things. I’ll be coming in with more experience to begin with, which everyone knows and is desirable. Once I get their system down, I’ll be able to advance more quickly and they ultimately are hiring me to replace someone more experienced for a role I’m excited about.

    I’m looking for tips on what to say when I’m given directions or told to do something that:
    – I already know how to do or am doing
    – Is not something I knew how their system did, but is straight-forward (so I understand what I’m being told)
    – Is different from what I would do or how I did things, for whatever reason

    This may sound really obvious and silly, but given my personal work history, I want to make sure I’m responding in a way that reflects my enthusiasm for the work and being able to learn what they want me to do to work as part of their team.

    I know that I can seem dismissive when I acknowledge directions too quickly (e.g., “Sure, will do” “Ok” or “I’m on it.”). This is even if I then proceed to do what I’m asked to do. I’m pretty direct and do things without a lot of chit-chat, and I realize that other people often prefer that I say more to acknowledge that I’ve been listening and understand. Meanwhile, I don’t want to turn every “Go get the chart and mark it” request into an active listening exercise of “I understand you want me to get the chart, happy to go do that!” So any tips of how/when to respond to what seems to me to be obvious or straight-forward direction would be helpful.

    I also realize that I often come from a place of defensiveness – people thinking that I’m doing something wrong or feeling like I have to justify an alternative (even if no one cares, sometimes people do X, sometimes Y – it’s not a value judgment!). This is my own thing that I’ve been working on based on bad environments I’ve been in that DID make me have to justify myself or presumed I was “wrong.” I’m aware enough that I’m looking for ways to make sure I don’t turn every well-intended direction to do things differently or question into an issue. It’s a new job! I won’t know how to do everything and there will be things they do different. (Quite frankly, even in an old job, you don’t know how to do everything and have to take direction to do things differently sometimes!). Tips for what to do/say that will make it clear I appreciate and welcome this information?

    1. Angela*

      This may not be super helpful, but one thing I would caution against is saying something along the lines of, “That’s not how I/we did X back at Old Job.” There is nothing that irritates me more than when a new employee says that… I always want to reply, “Well, you’re here now, and you’re going to do X our way!!” It doesn’t mean I’m not open to suggestions later, but I want you to see how we do X, and understand why we do X that way, and then if you feel you can improve X within the confines of the company’s policies, we can discuss.

      I do appreciate when, after I explain a process, the new employee says something like, “To make sure I’m understanding your intent, here we do X this way…” and then explains the process back to me, which allows me to concur or adjust as necessary.

    2. fposte*

      Speaking for myself, I don’t generally see “Okay” or “I’m on it” as dismissive responses to most requests–for most of the things I ask people to do, they’d be fine answers. The key, I’d say, is to calibrate to the organization, the medium, and the request. If you’re in an org where people email “k” as a confirmation to requests, you don’t want to send a paragraph; if you’re given a four-paragraph outline of a three-month project, you want to give a little more feedback than “Sure.”

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I see nothing wrong with saying “okay” or “sure” or “got it!” as long as your tone is bright and casual. You don’t need to be super perky or anything, but just an overall friendly tone will do. In fact I would just stick with those kinds of short responses, and let the trainers do their thing, even if you know how something works or if it’s straightforward. Even if it’s something you technically know how to do, it’s still good to hear it from their point of view so you can understand how it fits into their organization.

      I grew up in a family that over-explained things and had to justify every action and decision so I totally know where you’re coming from. I try to err on the side of being brief and not saying a lot when I’m in the training stage. And if you encounter a situation where you think something should be done differently, a good phrasing for that would be “Can you explain some more about why this process is done this way?” No need to give any back story, like “because I’m used to this” or whatever – if someone asks, then of course you can share, but brief questions are a good start.

  136. Alinea*

    We are finally hiring an extra person on our team, likely internal. My peer has already started complaining that they will need to train this person and that it is not in their job description. Peer didn’t even help with the last person we hired, our supervisor and I did all of the training. I always thought training a new person was just part of the territory…am I wrong?! Peer also wants to be paid more for training. They are delusional.

    1. Anna Canuck*

      If you don’t want to train people, you’ll end up somewhere new being trained.

  137. PoliticsAtWork*

    In a different issue than the intern from earlier this week, the CEO at my small-ish company (<500 employees) is allowing politicians to come and speak to employees in our largest meeting room. Attendance isn't mandatory. The very first speaker happens to be a friend of his. They're not denying anyone based on party affiliation, but this still seems like it has the potential to go badly and be really problematic. In the past they've pressured employees (through work emails and suggesting we share stuff on Facebook) to vote a certain way on a state ballot measure that affected the industry we're in, which also felt icky.

    Thoughts? Am I being too sensitive?

    2. Meredith Brooks*

      I once trained a boss who got the job I wanted. Life is full of joyful miseries such as this. We don’t get paid extra for being human.

      1. Meredith Brooks*

        Yikes, I commented on the wrong post! But in your case, this seems like a spectacularly terrible idea.

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Ooooh that’s bad. You’re not being sensitive. Especially with the voting pressure.

    4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      From what you describe about the speakers it’s not sounding all that bad to me. The issue voting could be more problematic, especially if it’s vote for person A that supports our industry instead of hey resolution B is on the ballot and here’s how it affects our industry.

      I’m just not sure what you are looking to do about this?

    5. nym*

      Sometimes I am so, so grateful for the convoluted-ness of the federal government. Hooray Hatch Act.

  138. Peggy*

    Question for current and former book industry folks:

    My partner is an editor at a prestigious university press. After a leadership change, he’s realized he needs to leave, because the new management is just awful. He’s only ever worked at this one press. He’s done very well there – advanced quickly, had lots of books win major awards, etc. But he doesn’t really know how to effectively job search in his field, since he’s never worked anywhere else and doesn’t have a large network.

    So, two questions for anyone who’s been in that industry:
    1. How do you find a new job in the industry? Are there headhunters/recruiters he should be talking to?
    2. If he were to consider leaving this industry (because there aren’t many publishing houses in the area), any suggestions for alternate career pathways?

    Thank you for any thoughts you might have!

    1. Danny*

      A few years ago I worked at a tiny publishing house and left because of truly terrible and likely illegal management. Like your partner it was a tough decision because I knew getting a job in publishing would be difficult.
      If moving isn’t in the cards (because I’m sure they could find a job at a major press in NYC, which is what I did) arts orgs and media companies are a really great option and rely on similar skill sets. Freelancing is also potentially a lucrative option. With a list of successful books, they could become a freelance editor, publicist, or literary agent.
      I have former coworkers who are now publishing reps or booksellers, but both come with drawbacks (lots of travel, low pay).
      Shelf awareness is a good resource for publishing specific jobs. They have a daily newsletter and a job board that is used industry wide.

      1. Peggy*

        Thanks, Danny! I appreciate it. Congrats on moving on from a bad situation to a major NYC press! That’s awesome.

  139. Pop*

    I volunteer for a small (six person staff) nonprofit that runs on about 90% volunteer hours. They’re looking for a new admin assistant and are using the word “gumption” all over the place (even hashtagging it on social media to promote). Noooooooo

    2. irene adler*

      Love to hear their definition of Gumption.
      What are they expecting to get in the way of candidates?

      1. Pop*

        Someone who will be willing to put up with being overworked and underpaid! (There are a lot of great things about this org – salary and work/life balance are not on the list.)

  140. data jobs?*

    Data analysis, statistics, actuarial, and data science people – should I take the first actuarial exam make sense if I don’t actually want to become an actuary?

    I got a BS in math 12 years ago, and followed it a 3 year stint in job that used the degree. The last 9 years have been in crappy customer service, admin, and skilled labor jobs. I was wondering if passing the first actuarial exam would be a good way to show potential employers that my probability and statistics skills are still strong. Or, would it just seem bizarre to have spent time and $$ on the exam when I don’t have any intention of becoming an actuary.

    I’ve heard that folks don’t put a lot of faith in MOOC certificates, do you find this to be true in your field? How would you view someone with an “old” degree who had a current MOOC data science certificate and was aiming for an entry level job around 45K (60k is the median income for a single person household in my city, which has a lot of tech and state government jobs)

    1. clinical data*

      I’m in clinical research working with data people, and I don’t think anyone would even know what the actuarial exam / MOOC certificates mean.

      I actually had been looking at getting a very focused certification for my field earlier this year, and my manager flat out asked me why I think I needed it because he didn’t think it would add any knowledge I hadn’t already made through actual work experience in my field. It was a bit of a wakeup call for me, as I transition from early career where I was still in education mindset to mid career where my previous experience/accomplishments matter more.

      1. data jobs?*

        Well, my problem is that it’s been nearly a decade since I’ve been in a related field. I have no recent work experience to show that I’m competent. I was hoping some sort of recent certificate would prevent a few hiring managers from immediately trashing my resume

    2. Borgette*

      I would only suggest the actuarial exam if you’re interviewing in a related industry – like insurance. It’s probably not going to help much. The MOOC could be more helpful, but don’t rely on the certificate, rely on the techniques you used to earn it!
      For an entry level role, solid Excel skills (pivots, calculations, etc.), a few solid examples of using data to solve a real-life problem, and maybe a little coding (SQL, basic Python or R) would be enough. Having some solid real-world examples of data work would be even better than a MOOC certificate. Do you keep a database of your out-of-print card game collection and it’s decks? Have you visualized your plan to pay off a loan? Do you participate in events like Advent of Code or Makeover Monday? This is the stuff that really stands out when I look at other analysts.

    3. Renee*

      I’m a full-time Data Analyst and unless you become an actuary/statistician that exam does not really have any relevance to any data analyst/data scientist job I have interviewed for. What is more important is improving your database skills in SQL, and T-SQL or PL/SQL. Also learning the language R or Python is a big help. Lastly, having a good grasp on software like Excel, SSIS, SSRS, SAS, Tableau, Power BI, etc. Statistics is important, but it is better to concentrate on your tech skills than taking the actuarial exam.

  141. SehrAnon*

    So, I have the opposite problem of some letters I have seen.

    I have lost 40 pounds since December, and one coworker in particular seems to hate me for it. Telling me I’m too skinny, deprived, will gain it all back and then some, is that all I’m eating. Tries to talk to me about HAES. I’m still overweight, though.

    She’s also brought snacks in more often and proceeds to talk about them and offer them to me. I’ve tried saying she needs to help me by not offering rather than offering them, but she’s saying a little won’t hurt, I’m fine, etc.

    Maybe I’m a bit paranoid but it seems like sabotage. I am trying to form new patterns so I have good habits and don’t regain, and here she is with the discouraging. How do I tell her to stop, and also maybe that I don’t believe what she does about weight/HAES so don’t discuss with me?

    1. rosie*

      I think you should be direct with her, “I don’t want to discuss my health or body with you.” And then maybe quickly switch the subject with a “hey, did you hear back from X about Y?” type comment.
      That sucks that she is treating you like this. 100% none of her business.

    2. Sylvan*

      Tell her you don’t want to talk about weight or diet at work, if that’s true and you don’t talk about diet/weight/etc with other coworkers. She should be able to get that.

      If that doesn’t work or isn’t an option, tell her to stop commenting on your body. It’s really gross that she is doing that, IMO, and I’m sorry you’re dealing with her. I may be oversensitive, but spending so much of her time focusing on your body and your food is strange, and possibly worth going to HR to discuss if she can’t seem to stop herself.

    3. Anonymous fatty*

      This really sucks, but I don’t think you’re being paranoid. I will confess, as a fat person, that I secretly feel a little sad when someone loses a lot of weight. I would absolutely never try to sabotage them, and I have absolutely no desire to discuss body image or dieting at work in any circumstances, but as stupid as this is, I sort of feel betrayed when another fat person is no longer fat. Now, I am also happy for them, because I know how difficult it is to exist as a fat person, but I am still jealous. It is really hard and lonely to be fat, and even more so the fewer fat people there are. Were you ever bigger than her? That’s another thing that is hard to handle, suddenly becoming the biggest person around.

      Of course none of this excuses her behavior. But maybe you just have to remember that this is 100% her issue, not yours. Maybe you can respond that all the talk about your body and diet are detrimental to your body acceptance. Point out that surely, she would not want people talking about her body and diet all the time.

    5. Cheesesticks and Pretzels*

      If it walks like a duck… she is trying to sabotage. Be firm and continue to shut her down. If she persists with pushing snacks etc. you may need to get your supervisor involved. Sorry she is being this way. Some people just suck.

    6. irene adler*

      Congrats on the weight loss!!
      Yes, this person is trying to sabotage you.
      Please heed the suggestions others have posted. Shut her down re: talk about your body, food intake, HAES, etc.
      Don’t try to recruit her to help you (“Please keep the treats away from me.”). She’ll see that as an opening to try and undo your eating plan.

    7. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Whether it’s sabotage or not, it’s really rude. I’d just bluntly shut her down and say, “I don’t want to discuss my body or my eating habits at work/with you.” Or “No, I don’t want that,” when she offers food, and go right back to what you were doing. Repeat as necessary – and definitely REPEAT, don’t change what you say, just be a broken record.

      I wouldn’t tell her you don’t share her opinions on weight/HAES because that only encourages people like that – they see it as an invitation to badger you more. Just be brief, and don’t give her anything to discuss.

  142. Wondering*

    I have a question for the community at large, on dealing with some staff issues.

    I’m the manager of about 15 employees in a very small office, we all get along, and there is no fighting and very, very little drama (if any!). What we do have, is one person in particular who just generally annoys almost everyone, let’s call her Jane. She’s not a bad person by any means, but she has a hard time understanding the culture of the office, as well as personal interactions. The best way to describe her, would be like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory, she’s just a little bit dense sometimes.

    There has been a few incidents that give me some pause on dealing with her. In the past, most of the time if she does/says something, staff just roles with it and we move on. No one has ever asked me to “talk” with her, or has done any formal complaints. A few people tend to vent about her, but no one gossips or takes it too far.

    Last week, a coworker was celebrating her birthday, let’s call her Mary. She’s been on what she calls, a weight loss journey for about 2 years now, losing a large amount of weight. She’s been fairly open with her past eating disorder problems, since she says it helps her to talk about it. Mary happen to bring in a really nice, expensive cake and right before she took a bite of her own piece, Jane looked at her and said something along the lines of, “I thought you were on a weight loss journey, that cake isn’t very healthy…” and just kinda walked away. Knowing Jane, she wasn’t trying to be very mean. Mary, for her part, just laughed and shrugged it off. She hasn’t come to me about it, but another staff who was in the room, mentioned to me that she felt Jane was really out of line this time.

    My question is, how should I handle Jane when no one really wants to kick up a fuss about it? If Mary would have come to me, I would have sat down with Jane and talked her to about it. Since Mary didn’t, I don’t feel like I should interject. I have talked with Jane before, especially in her yearly review, talking about trying to think about how her words and actions might affect her fellow workers. Honestly, I don’t think Jane realizes what she does, no matter how it’s put to her.

    Should we start calling her out on these remarks? Should we continue to ignore it? I know it sounds like my staff is dealing with it, but I feel bad when they get frustrated and annoyed with her. I don’t want everyone to think I don’t see this, but at the same time, I don’t want to take everyone but Jane aside and say, hey I know she says some bad stuff, but it’s okay? It’s not always her comments that annoy people either, she tends to be very nosy into other people’s personal lives and work spaces.

    She once took down someone’s Halloween decorations the day after Halloween, since the person was off and Jane felt like she was doing the right thing by just going into that person’s office and taking down things. When I spoke with her about it, she just took it as we’re okay with having decorations up past the occasion, not that it’s wrong to do it. I tried in vain to get her to see it, but it just kept going over her head.

    1. Legal Rugby*

      Are you dealing with these one on one, or have you approached it as a performance issue? Like, do you only say something when the people involved complain, or have you said “hey jane, I’ve noticed that some of your action indicate that you have trouble taking others feelings into account?”

      1. Amtelope*

        I agree that something needs to be said to her, but if she genuinely has trouble reading social cues, “you have trouble taking others’ feelings into account” may be too vague to help. I’d try giving her some very specific feedback, and see if she is willing to follow concrete rules if you provide them.

        “I noticed you telling Mary her food was unhealthy. It’s not okay to comment on other people’s food choices. Please don’t do that from now on.”

        “Let’s talk for a moment about the time you took down Paul’s decorations. I want to make sure you understand why that was a problem. You can’t move items in someone else’s office without permission. Can you commit to following that rule in the future?”

        Etc.

        1. OP*

          Thank you for the advice. I admit I haven’t been too exact with her, mostly because staff doesn’t complain to me about it and I didn’t want to come across as if I was throwing someone under the bus. But you’re right, a direct response to incidents might be a little better.

      2. OP*

        A little of both, I always bring up the idea of being respectful and thinking about the way we talk to people at her review, and I’ve taken her aside at some points. I’ve never really just took her aside and make a generally statement.

        1. sheep jump death match*

          I would bet $9,999 she has no idea what that means or how to change it. Try specifically telling her what you want her to do, not just that she did something wrong. “There should be about a foot between you and your coworkers.” “Knock and wait for a reply before you go into someone’s office.” “Good topics for the office are the weather, sports, and TV shows. Bad topics are how Mary’s cancer is going.”

          One of the nicest things a manager ever did for me was to tell me, “Turn all the way around in your chair when your coworkers want your attention.” A previous manager had told me things like, “You need to be more respectful to your coworkers” and “Just be aware of this” and I had no freaking clue. Huge difference.

          1. only acting normal*

            +1

            You need to be direct and specific. Vagueness will not be understood by the sounds of it.
            Providing concrete examples of appropriate ‘social scripts’ that she *should* follow instead is also going to be more helpful than just “X was wrong, do better”.
            (Think Sheldon’s hot beverage script for when people seem distressed.)

            Re the Halloween decs: the problem was not “taking down decs” it was “going in someone else’s office and interfering with their stuff”. You think the conversation you had was about the latter, she thinks it was about the former. You need to be crystal clear about the real problems not lose them in the details of the circumstances. Because if she is like Sheldon she’s not going to generalise from the specific incident well.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Were you in the room when she made the weight loss comment? If so, I’d talk with her about that directly: “Jane, I wanted to talk with you about the comment you made to Mary the other day about her weight loss. Commenting on her eating choices — or anyone else’s — just isn’t ok. Please don’t do that again.”

      If you weren’t there, I’d let that one go.

      But I’d actually take the whole thing more seriously. It’s not necessarily a problem that she doesn’t seem to naturally “get” the social/professional rules that your office follows — you can address those kinds of things directly, as you’ve done in some cases. But it sounds like she’s not learning from those conversations, or “getting it” even when you call it out clearly… and that’s a problem. She doesn’t need to understand the reason it’s not ok for her to comment on someone’s weight or change the decoration’s in someone else’s cube, but she does have to accept that she can’t do that (and not argue back about why it doesn’t make sense).

    3. ballpitwitch*

      I swear there is someone like this in every office. Unfortunately, it usually gets written off as a “personality quirk” that management/HR has no place doing anything about. I’ve always found this ridiculous. Being a rude, morale-sucking jerk is not a quirk. It’s unprofessional and unacceptable in a workplace.

      1. Rainy*

        The turd in my office has a manager who is extremely wishy-washy, and every time the office turd leaves a big old smear somewhere it can be seen, the manager screws up their courage, has a talk with the turd, and ends up coming out of the meeting telling everyone that the wall was too boring when it was white and it really needed a big smear.

        1. ballpitwitch*

          +1,000 – I am cracking up.

          At ToxicOldJob, I often remarked that this person could take a giant poo on the CEO’s desk and somehow not get so much as a slap on the wrist.

    4. Rainy*

      Yeah, Jane is a turd.

      When other people are telling you “Jane did this astonishingly rude thing”, you should deal with it, because you were told. If you don’t do anything, people will assume that you don’t care if Jane is a giant turd. Do you want to be the manager who lets one member of her staff be a giant turd to everyone else?

    5. Meredith Brooks*

      It sounds to me that this is more than problem of not understanding social cues. It feels to me that Jane may be on the spectrum, given that she doesn’t quite understand social niceties when explained to her either. Telling her to consider how her words impact others is unhelpful, because because that’s not in her frame of reference (in a – how would she know what others are thinking – kind of way). In which case, it might be you need to be more explicit. Tell her that she needs to respect other people and their surroundings. This means that she should not comment on other people’s conversations if she doesn’t have anything productive or constructive to say. It also means, she cannot touch other people’s stuff without their permission, including decorations.

  143. Forking great username*

    The job search drags on with zero progress…I’m starting to wonder if all of these school districts just wait until the end of summer to even start interviewing people or what. Blah. If that’s the case, I could have another month to go since school doesn’t start here until after Labor Day. It’s just frustrating to send out application after application and hear nothing. I’m trying to just apply and mentally move on as the advice here goes, but when you’re unemployed and in a field with one main hiring season, that can be easier said than done.

    1. Persimmons*

      In my area, there is a hard deadline by which teachers have to submit retirement/resignation notices (60 days before the first student school day). Most people procrastinate until they’re forced to make a decision, then hiring starts in a panic. You can predict it down to the day.

      1. Forking great username*

        Interesting! Some of our local school districts offered buy outs this year, so there’s a handful of jobs they already know they need to hire people for. I’ve applied for them, but maybe they wait until that later deadline and do all of the interviewing at once. I’m just checking the websites daily and hoping for the best. (And prepping for the interviews that will hopefully come!)

        1. Crystal*

          Where I live, admin is out on their shortened summer break, so I’m sure they’re not looking at resumes right now even if they know they need someone. Good luck!

    2. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I hate to say it, but a lot do wait until the end of summer. In my district there is a round of job postings in June (usually snapped up by people who had 1 year contracts) and then nothing until early August. It’s horrible for people who need jobs and who want time over the summer to prepare but, to be fair, a lot of staffing needs are a little uncertain until schools can see how many new families show up to register in August.

  144. Ethel*

    Our office has a receptionist/admin assistant, Lucille, who is my direct report. She has a tendency to come into my office without warning, plop down, and start talking about X, Y, or Z, without first asking if I’m busy or if I have a moment. Lucille also interjects herself into private conversations. The other day, I was standing in my boss’s doorway talking to him about something, when she came up beside me and started making comments. It was not a confidential matter (I would have been sitting in his office with the door closed if it was), but it still bothered me a lot. I resolved then and there the next time something like that happened, I would address it with her in the moment.

    Fast forward to yesterday. The way my office is configured, anyone from my doorway can see what is on my monitors, and moving them really isn’t an option because then I couldn’t see my visitors across my desk. So, I am studying something on the screen, and Lucille walks in and makes a comment about what she sees (I didn’t realize she was there until she said something). Again, nothing confidential, but still… Anyway, I asked her to sit down, and I told her that she has a tendency to involve herself in things that don’t concern her and it needs to stop, and she shouldn’t be looking at other people’s monitors/documents/etc without their permission. Even though I had told myself I was going to do it, I was still not as prepared as I should have been.

    Since then, she’s taken to standing outside my office and asking if she can come in, which is what I want, but there’s something about the way she does it that seems weird although I can’t put my finger on it. I can’t decide whether I should say anything, or see how things are on Monday. I want her to be friendly, but also respect my privacy. Frankly, I’m also kind of annoyed I had to say something in the first place! She’s still relatively new to my organization, but she has previous experience as an administrative assistant… And NOT eavesdropping (either through hearing or seeing) is something you should know just by virtue of being a member of society!

    I guess I’m looking for advice on whether to address it again, while it’s still fresh, or see if the weekend will mellow things out. I may also be over-reacting, because I have a hard time giving “negative” feedback.

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think there’s anything to address right now. You asked her to wait before entering and she’s doing it. Unless she’s actively being mean or sulking, you may just be responding to the mutual awkwardness following your initial discussion.

      I’d also try to let go of what people “should” know. What people know is all over the map, and some of that frustration, I suspect, is your stress about having to have a conversation you didn’t want to have. But you did a really good job of the conversation and she’s responded immediately to your request–so far this looks to me like a victory.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      She’s probably silently protesting/moping/objecting to your perfectly reasonable request because SHE knew she wasn’t trying to intrude or violate your privacy, therefore YOU must be overreacting. Just ignore it and the slight overformality will probably go away after it gets tiresome, especially if she sees it’s not having the desired effect. (It very well may not be on purpose, in which case she’ll simply become more comfortable with this new habit of thinking or asking before intruding.)

      1. Ethel*

        Thank you both for your comments.

        It is a little bit sulky/moping, but I am going to ignore it for now. It is the first time I’ve said anything “negative” to her since she’s been employed here, so I’m sure that’s weird for her, and definitely unexpected. (Overall, she does great work, but this habit really was pushing all the wrong buttons for me… I think most people can’t help but be nosy, but they also don’t comment out loud about what they’ve heard/seen, letting you at least preserve the illusion of privacy.)

        Fposte, I hear what you are saying about what we expect other people to know as a matter of course, and it’s a good thing to bear in mind.

  145. bravocado*

    This may be a stupid question, but I’m a newbie in the workforce so I wanted to get the AAM reader opinion.
    I was given a promotion. It’s relatively minor (slight title change). But I put in my notice a few weeks later because I got an offer for a job more directly related to my degree and interests. Woo!
    I was afraid my promotion would be revoked (we have a horrible turnover problem and I was wondering if it was a bid to get me to stay), but it wasn’t.
    My boss is telling me I can still put the promoted title on my resume, but that feels… fraudulent? I spent nearly all my time here as a Junior Teapot Specialist, and have only been an Associate Teapot Specialist during my notice period pretty much. What’s your take?

    1. Persimmons*

      I would include it. Even though you didn’t spend a lot of time in the role, you’re showing that you learn quickly and can be seen as dependable/ promotable. Just be clearly honest about the time frame, and you should be fine.

    2. Technical_Kitty*

      They thought enough of you to promote you, that you left soon after has nothing to do with it. Definitely use on your resume.

    4. Susan K*

      If I understand correctly, this promotion was pretty much just a title change, not a major change in job description, right? If that’s the case, it is definitely fine to put the promoted title on your resume — especially considering that your boss specifically told you it’s ok, which means that if you use her as a reference, she will confirm that.

      Now, if you were going from Junior Teapot Specialist to Teapot Department Manager, and you were only in the manager role for a couple of weeks, you probably wouldn’t want to put it on your resume because it would look dishonest once they found out that your management experience was only two weeks. But this title change mainly signifies the fact that you achieved a high enough level of performance and experience that you are no longer considered a junior-level employee.

      Also, it would be very unusual for this kind of promotion to be revoked just because you gave your notice. If they had done that, it would have been a really petty and crappy thing to do. (Again, it would be different if the promotion were a completely different role, like Teapot Department Manager, and it wouldn’t make sense to put you in a new role for your notice period.)

      1. bravocado*

        Yes, it was just a title change–the job description and day-to-day responsibilities remained entirely the same. I wasn’t about to start managing people or anything like that. Thanks for the advice!

  146. einahpets*

    I started this job 5 months ago, and the very first week I joined the company got some disappointing news.

    People have been leaving in waves since (not layoffs, just people finding jobs elsewhere), but I actually am still pretty optimistic about the company if we can make it through the next year or so.

    Added to this is that I just had a bout of bad luck in two other jobs within the last year (one lost funding after 10 months, the other was layoffs at 6 months). I’m really not looking to leave anytime soon (partly because I don’t think it is time yet, partly because my recent resume experience is a wreck if I do), but morale is so incredibly low and… I just don’t know how to cope with it. There are some weird office politics also going on to fill the spaces of people that left, too.

    I left work early yesterday to make an appointment with my doctor because I think it is affecting my mental health. I have two days off next week, and I don’t know if I’ve ever been looking forward to a break so much from the office as I am now.

    Anyone have any strategies to pass on about keeping my head in the right place in the face of low office morale?

    1. Anna Canuck*

      When riding out a very rough patch at my old job, a lifer gave me the sage advice that “You care too much.”
      It’s good to care about a job, but ranting and being upset at how things were managed and how the system was ridiculous and the leadership didn’t really make any sense or deserve to be in charge or (insert further rant here) was indeed doing me no good. Putting my head down and just doing what needed to be done, then going home and enjoying my non-work life was the key. Also getting out of the office for lunch/coffee and just keeping strong contact with people “on the outside” (things like IMing a bit during the day).
      I’m not elsewhere. Lifer remains in the old org (the Canadian fed gov’t), doing his thing and relatively happy despite the abject chaos around him.

      1. Anna Canuck*

        typo: I AM elsewhere. Happy and free and in a relatively functional work group and organization.

    2. Overeducated*

      My work is a lot like this right now and I really just try to work hard while I’m there and then disconnect. Yesterday I took a rare lunch break outside the building and ate next to a fountain and it was surprisingly therapeutic. Today I’m feeling quite burned out and its Friday so I’m having a beer and watching a movie with my kid. Don’t let work take over your life.

      The morale, politics, plus picking up other people’s work is a really tough combination. I’m a recent hire and can’t leave either. I try to think of it as temporary, work may get better if we just push through, but if I make it 2-3 years I can also leave for greener pastures with what i hope will be a really strong resume from getting through this period.

  147. Ann O'Nemity*

    I’m so annoyed with a coworker who delegates work to me (and others). If I see one more terse email with “do this and send it back to me today,” I’m going to scream.

    Part of the problem is that our big boss doesn’t care who does the work as long as it gets done. And while this coworker doesn’t necessarily take credit for doing the work, she certainly gets the praise for making sure it gets done.

    1. irene adler*

      “Sorry, can’t. I’d have to put off other tasks -which are on deadline for this Friday- to do this. Maybe some other time. ”

      “I can complete this by next Friday but not sooner. Is that okay?”

      Or, for every task she sends your way, send one of yours her way.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I like the second suggestion. “Sure I’ll do X, if you do Y for me. Send it back to me today.” There may be no consequences for your coworker in trying to delegate to peers, but there should also be none if the peers say Nope, I’ve got my own work to do.

  148. Sylvan*

    After a few too many clients didn’t pay me on time, I am instituting a late fee.

    I am friendly with all of them and inconveniencing them feels “mean.”

    But didn’t paying me late feel “mean” to them?!

    1. Anna Canuck*

      It’s a business, not a birthday party. You are allowed to be “mean” (as in, pay your own bills on time and make a living).

    2. irene adler*

      Replace “mean” with “fair”.
      I’m be “fair” when I inconvenience folks with a late fee.

    3. SarahKay*

      They’re inconveniencing you by not paying on time. Good for you for the late fee!

    4. Grace Less*

      My water company offers an “early pay discount, where the bill is 5% lower if you pay by the 15th of the month. I think that’s just really reframing the late fee in a positive way

    5. Hamburke*

      Learned this from an accountant:
      1- make sure it’s written in your contracts or that you have otherwise documented it with your clients (can be on the invoice)
      2- make sure to invoice the late fee/finance charge separately from the regular payment (often done on a statement, rather than by invoice)
      3- receive the late fee FIRST when they eventually pay you bc you’ll get a check for the original amt and a refusal to pay the late fee. The memo line of a check is not legally binding.

      1. Hamburke*

        Oh! And check rules on how much you can charge so you don’t run afoul of the legal side! I want to say it’s 18% ayp which is 1.5% monthly…

    6. A Consultant*

      It’s totally fair to do, and if it shames them into paying, then it is a GREAT strategy! But I have heard it’s difficult to enforce (a previous commenter has more of the particulars). At an old firm, we had it written into the contracts, but I’m not sure the office manager ever enforced it. If they don’t pay it, eventually, your only recourse is some sort of collections process — which, depending on the size of your business, may not be worth the fees you’d collect?

      I like the idea of offering an early-pay discount (and accordingly, raising your base fee on new contracts to incorporate the late charge). I’d also support the idea of increasing your base fees with recurring clients who have exhibited this pattern, and letting them know that it’s a result of clients who have routinely paid late, which has increased overhead costs for your business.

  149. rosie*

    How do you handle a coworker who treats you as their manager? One member of my team, Sansa, is new to this industry and office work in general, and also is just generally very anxious. Because her actual manager is somewhat inattentive and is out of the office a lot on sales calls, Sansa treats me as her pseudo-manager and will come to me with questions. At first it wasn’t too bad, but now it’s all the time and often really disruptive. Often the same question over and over, or things that she can find the answer to in our resources (employee handbook, digital archives, etc.) I want to be supportive but it’s impeding my ability to get my work done.

    1. Anna Canuck*

      Stop answering things she knows. Kick it back with questions like “What do you think?” and “Where can you look that up?”

  150. August*

    I’m currently in a bit of a bind re: my job search. I’m currently serving as an AmeriCorps VISTA (my term ends this month), and was just offered a position as a State AmeriCorps member with a different organization. The position is perfect: the job duties sound interesting, the commute is relatively short, I like the team, and all of my major expenses would be covered.

    However, I was offered the AmeriCorps position much sooner than expected. A contact of mine just put my name forward for a full-time position in a state government agency (much better paying than AmeriCorps, obviously) that perfectly matches my career goals. I thought I would have more time to see if I was invited to interview for this government position before anything moved forward with the AmeriCorps position. I don’t think I can ask for more than a week to decide whether to accept the AmeriCorps position, but I also don’t know if I’ll even be considered for the state government job, so I’m not sure if delaying my AmeriCorps acceptance will even result in anything!

    Any ideas for how to proceed? I can ask for more time to decide on the AmeriCorps position, but I don’t want to seem unenthusiastic. I don’t think there’s any way I can move the state government timeline forward or see if I’m being considered as a candidate.

    I’m also not sure how I feel about another year of AmeriCorps, no matter how much I like the position. I think another year of experience would be useful (most entry-level job descriptions seem to want 2+ years of experience), but I’m not sure what hiring managers will think of two AmeriCorps years with two different organizations. Any thoughts?

      1. August*

        I wasn’t planning to start seriously job searching until my current AmeriCorps term ends. I only applied for these two positions because they were recommended to me, so this is it for now. Although, considering my social science degree and rural town, my guess is that I’ll have to move (or deal with an hour-long commute) for any job in my field.

    2. nym*

      If the time limit on the new AmeriCorps position is a year – go for it. state gov’t agencies are notoriously slow and it could take them that long to hire, if you are what they are looking for.

      take the sure thing and don’t worry about the might-be until it also becomes as sure thing.

      1. August*

        State government takes that long? The AmeriCorps position is 10 months, but I’d feel terrible leaving halfway through the term for another job (which I’d definitely be tempted to do; the state government job sounds perfect).

  151. Anon Accountant*

    We’re fortunate to have a workout room in our building with treadmills, elliptical, bike and weights. During lunch it gets crowded.

    Would it be strange to come in about 30 minutes early and exercise before work? I’d wear a t-shirt and sweatpants then change. Our dress code is casual (almost anything goes).

    I’ve been here 2 months so I’m adjusting.

    1. Anna Canuck*

      That doesn’t sound weird at ALL. Nor would flexing your lunch break(like, going at 11:30 or 1), if that’s reasonable in your role.

    2. rosie*

      I know plenty of people who work out in the company gym before work. If the room is open in the morning, I’m sure it’s okay.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        It’s open 5am-8pm. We have around the clock shifts to cover emergency issues with a dispatch crew. Therefore the odd hours.

    4. Susan K*

      Totally normal! We have an on-site gym where I work, and a lot of people come in before work to use the gym.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        That makes me feel better. Excited too because this almost “guarantees” getting time to workout.

    6. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      your gym probably has hours, find out what they are and plan accordingly. I’ve had gyms at all of my jobs and there are as many people before work as at lunch and after work.

  152. Anonymosity*

    The interview I had on Monday with the non-profit seemed okay. The job wasn’t Excel-heavy, either and it paid about $13.50 an hour, which is poor for an executive assistant but good for an admin job here (most, including many of theirs, are $8-11). I would have said yes. But the very next day, I got an email: “We’ve gone with someone else, but we enjoyed meeting with you and invite you to apply to other positions.” >:(

    No one else has contacted me, though a job I applied for in StL is still posted.

    I’ve been busy as a long-tailed cat in a roomful of rocking chairs this week completely overhauling my book. I’m barrelling through it like Thanos after the Infinity Stones. I may or may not be back today. If not, see you on the open thread.

    1. Whatsinaname*

      Sorry that it didn’t pan out. I’ve been following your job search trials and tribulations and I’m crossing all available fingers (and toes if needed) that something will come up.

  153. A*

    I’m moving to Atlanta next month for a new job in Midtown. I’m considering living in town vs. OTP. Does anyone here live in Midtown? Is it noisy? How’s traffic?

    1. ballpitwitch*

      Traffic is horrendous. I live very slightly OTP and would never consider working anywhere ITP because of the traffic, TBH. Unless you live in the city and can actually walk to work, I would think long and hard about how much traffic you are willing to sit in.

    2. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      I have been told that traffic in Atlanta is only rivaled by LA. That said, the way Atlanta works is that you typically live in one of the “suburbs” and everyone commutes into work, no one really lives in the “downtown” area.

    3. KOKO*

      I live in Atlanta (in the city, ITP) and I would never consider moving OTP for traffic reasons mostly. I don’t have kids or own a home for reference, but if I did have kids, I would still love ITP. A lot of people OTP unfortunately are over dramatic about the crime rates or schools inside the perimeter. There are plenty of safe areas and neighborhoods with good schools. OTP can be cheaper for housing, but not always, so that’s something to consider as well. But I could not personally do more than a hour commute each way. I know many people who have an hour to and hour and a half commute each way. MARTA is also a great option if you can use it. I took MARTA most days for a few years to Buckhead because it was more reliable than traffic, and I didn’t have to focus on the road.

      If you’re moving from a more expensive city (like I did 8 years ago), then you’ll likely find the housing costs inside the city to be doable. Housing has gone up a lot since I’ve moved here, partially from all the transplants like me who are willing to pay more. Hope that helps!

    4. nym*

      Con: it can be noisy, traffic is horrific, and rent’s atrocious. Pro: you might be close enough to walk to work; there’s lots of trendy spots to hang out; Uber and Zipcar and stuff might mean you could ditch owning a vehicle entirely.

      That said Atlanta is really NOT public transport-friendly. I live about a mile OTP and commute to near Emory University every day. My commute is 25-45min one way and that works for me. I know people that commute up to two hours each way every day to work downtown.

    6. ronda*

      i have lived across the interstate from midtown for 20 years. The interstate traffic thru Midtown is bad pretty all the time. the main roads are usually bad at rush hour times as people try to get around or avoid the interstate. Sporting events at GA Tech and at the 2 downtown arenas, do cause major traffic issues on interstate and side of interstate opposite Midtown. I hate Thursday night NFL (I was working 1 block from the stadium and getting out was the worst traffic ever)

      I live 5 blocks from the interstate, about a mile from a railroad crossing and 4 blocks from a fire station. I don’t really hear it but there is a dull roar of traffic. I hear emergency vehicle sirens from time to time. I did hear the trains very loudly when they were re-developing the steel mill next to me and took down all the old buildings. They now put up new buildings and I dont hear the trains anymore.
      The worst noise for me is when there is an interesting accident on the downtown connector and the traffic helicopter decides to park over my house for hours (only happened 2x in 20 years)

      The best way to avoid traffic is to live closer to work and there are lots of living options in Midtown. I live where I do because it was a 1 minute drive from my work. I have changed jobs and now am about 40 minute drive for a 7 mile drive (no traffic is 15 minutes)

      I dont recommend walking to work… it is too hot or it is too cold and it is probably going to rain (in summer we do often get afternoon/ evening thunderstorms). — but maybe you can handle those things better than me :)

      1. ronda*

        oh… and crime.

        Dont leave anything in your car. It is the favorite crime per the police blotter (larceny from vehicle)
        followed by altercations at local bars.

        We have had armed robberies and car jackings in my area. Don’t go out alone late at night as this seems to be happening mostly to GA Tech students that are walking the street late at night. The university is required to report on these immediately so the neighborhood does hear about these. They seem to happen in spurts. The police respond to the ‘crime wave’, it goes away for a while, then starts back up again in a few years…. repeat again.

        Also there is currently a lot of new construction in Midtown that can mess with traffic. They closed a street I use to get home for 3 days to take down the construction crane. And on another several other routes I use in Midtown, they have a lane closed cause of the contruction vehicles and work on the bldg going in on that street.

  154. Rocco*

    I’ve only attempted to negotiate a pay rise once and it was met with such hostility that I resigned! Here is my current dilemma:

    I work in a teapot design and manufacturing/design company but my role is in IT management. It’s a stand-alone role, I’m the only one who does it and I don’t have a whole lot to do with anything teapotty. I’ve been here 6 months and all roles are typically aligned to a pay scale cribbed from a teacup company. Because of inequity in salaries and who was where on their scale a blanket decision was made around a year ago to put everyone in Point 5 of their scale to create balance and fairness. The person who had my job then was put on Point 5 of the scale for it – good for them. New staff in design and manufacturing since have all been appointed at Point 5 of their scale.

    However, during my recruitment two things happened and were advocated for by the person leaving my position – the salary advertised was exactly the amount of Point 1 of the IT scale (she had been Point 5) and my role was totally disassociated from a scale altogether – the salary figure is just a standalone figure. (Which happens to correspond to Point 1 of her old scale).

    In terms of education and experience I am on a par with, if not ahead of the person who previously held my role. My job is materially the same and I want to raise the issue as I feel it’s unfair (and it irks me I’m working for a company that overrides a policy decision to treat one member of staff differently). I’ve received praise on my work and efficiency since I started so I feel there’s a space to open a healthy dialogue around it.

    My question is – how do I present it? I’m not asking for a pay review because I’m awesome or think after 6 months I’m entitled to one – I’m asking because I think the move made to pay me less wasn’t fair (I hate that term!). In my role I’m privy to pay and conditions details for all staff so it’s not like I would never figure it out. I could frame it in the context of I think there’s been an ‘error’ but I’m really not sure what the best option is. Any advice?

    1. Rocco*

      I should also clarify that all design and manufacturing staff recruited since the policy change have been appointed at Point 5. It seems to have been a conscious effort to treat my role differently. Financially the company is fine by the way!

  155. anon here for now*

    Has anyone ever left a job because you didn’t fit in- as in the environment was too cliquey? I’ve tried to join in, but the women literally leave the table when I try to sit with them at lunch. They secretly plan to go out and then leave before I can even ask to be invited. I don’t know what I did/why I’m such a horrible person, but I feel awful. (And like I’m back in middle school.)

    1. TheWonderGinger*

      How long have you been there?

      It took me a solid year to really get “In” with my work group.

      1. anon here for now*

        It’s almost been a year, however, they’ve been doing this since I’ve started, so….. maybe it’s just the environment? I don’t know….

        1. TheWonderGinger*

          How happy are you with work outside of this? Can you be satisfied with a go to work, do my work, go home, mind my own mentality or do you need more back and forth to get you through the day?

          If you can be happy with keeping to yourself, I would just write it off as a “some people will just be that way” and keep on keeping on.

    2. RVA Cat*

      Maybe you should just back off and let them be cliquey? Spend your lunch reading or on social media or whatever makes you happy that doesn’t rely on their participation.

      1. TheWonderGinger*

        Before you just give up on the Mean Girls, you could also try organizing something yourself.

        “hey Ms. Peabody, I’m going to go grab a coffee from new place in the mall, want to come with?”

        But I wouldn’t blame you if you don’t want to put more emotional energy into it.

        1. anon here for now*

          I feel like I’ve already tried- I don’t want to be annoying or be trying too hard. I usually do my own thing. I think that I need to build a better social life outside of work. Maybe that would help?

          2. Margery*

            This is horrible – but I wouldn’t leave if I were you. Something similar happened to me. I did the old ‘kill them with kindness’ , tried to ignore etc, but then one day I realised I loved my job and my managers and that I could make the job my own and whatever they did didn’t matter – so long as they didn’t affect my job.

            I have a good social life and meet up with friends during the week and weekend and offload to them – I don’t even offload to them now because they are now being pleasant to me.

            I think you need to concentrate on your work – be a rock star and ignore the clique. Good luck.

  156. TheWonderGinger*

    I am in the process for interviewing for new admin jobs, but am in okay shape at current job. I got an offer for a decent job but is much more a lateral move (same pay, less PTO, etc) than I was looking for. I interviewed really well and really liked the team but would rather stay in current job and explore the better opportunities I am currently interviewing for (more pay, comparable PTO).

    Whats the best way to decline the decent job offer in a tone that conveys my appreciation for the offer without coming across as snarky or condescending? Is a generic ” Thank you very much for the offer of decent job, but I am going to decline at this time to pursue other opportunities” okay?

    1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      I think that’s okay – you can also counter. Maybe decent job can become great job if they offer more money and you negotiate for extra PTO?

      1. TheWonderGinger*

        I did try to negotiate for higher pay and PTO but they said it was non negotiable, which I understand because it is a entry level position in a field that I do not have direct experience in. I have years of generic customer service/call center experience but not decent job specific so I don’t have much leverage.

        1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

          Then just decline – if you like the company you can always ask them to keep you in mind if something in a higher pay band opens up.

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I think you’re in a great place to negotiate. What makes the job decent/better/different from what you’re currently doing? I think there’s nothing wrong with being honest that the compensation is below what you’re currently making and asking them for more [money/PTO/etc]. At best you get what you want, at worst you walk away, which you’re already planning on doing.

      1. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Ah just saw that you posted while I was writing my answer. I think at this point you can determine that getting a job that will give you experience in a new field (assuming you are trying to break into it for a career move and not just for the heck of it) is worth the lateral move, or if you’re not really interested in that field you can say exactly what you outlined above, thanks for the offer but I’m going to pursue other opportunities.

      2. TheWonderGinger*

        It’s in a different field, I currently work for a big name telephone company and am for lack of better words, lost in the sauce of the corporate world. Overworked, never feel like I accomplish anything, hands tied on processes kind of feeling.

        Decent offer is for a locally owned financial institution, entire organization has less employees than my current job does on one floor. The job wasn’t really what I was looking for, think basic stand behind a counter entry level with corresponding pay and benefits, but had been sent my way by a former colleague who also made the jump from big corporate to local company and thought I would be a good fit for the culture.

        Other opportunities I am interviewing for are for a local healthcare organization, more in line with the type of customer service work I do now, and while it’s not a nationally known brand that is also a well known condiment, it is bigger organization than the decent offer place which allows it to start at a higher salary and be more competitive with benefit packages.

        I am going to take the advice and give decent offer a call and try to negotiate, maybe they can at least meet in the middle!

    3. irene adler*

      Might add a comment about how impressed you were by the company.

      ” Under any other circumstance I would welcome the opportunity to work at Decent Company. However, at this point in time you must decline the offer.”

  157. JobinPolitics*

    What is the typical process to hire field organizers?

    A second reference contacted me to share that he had been contacted by the campaign to discuss my qualifications for the role. On Monday evening, the first reference texted me that he had spoken with a campaign representative on my behalf.

    I have one more reference on the list, but she hasn’t indicated that she’s been asked to speak.

    So, after two extensive phone screenings and a reference check, am I close to securing an offer? What’s the typical turnaround for background check and discussion of pay and benefits?

    Any information would be greatly appreciated. I am both excited and confused by this experience.

  158. Sharepoint question*

    I’m late to the party but maybe someone will see this.

    I’m job hunting and many positions list “Sharepoint” as a requirement. I’ve have worked minimally with Sharepoint but just uploaded and downloaded versions, and created a new version. This doesn’t seem to be enough for the jobs but I don’t know what else there is. Two questions:

    1) Is this enough to list Sharepoint in my list of KSAs? 2) Is there a class I could take? I’ve looked at lynda.com but there are so many different Sharepoint classes I don’t know which one to take to get me more marketable. Thank in advance for any assistance.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      No, that’s not enough. A class is a good idea!

      I can’t point you to a specific class. In my region, the science museum offers in-person Sharepoint training (weird!).

    2. Ann O.*

      There’s a lot, so this is a difficult question to answer without knowing more about these jobs. Sharepoint can be used as a content management system but also as a departmental teamsite. Also, someone could need to configure a site or site farm. I’m going to guess ability to use the teamsite is what teams are looking for.

      If so, I would personally not worry about it and consider what you have close enough. Sharepoint is pretty easy to use if all you have to do is use tools other people have configured. IMHO, it’s not even that hard to pick up if you need to do some configuring yourself. I became my old team’s superuser even though I had not even heard of Sharepoint before that job. I used tutorials and Lynda.com to pick up what I needed to know.

      I couldn’t always get my scripts to work right, but honestly, I shouldn’t have had to code them myself anyway. That’s really getting into more sys admin stuff and less superuser stuff. I just liked the challenge.

  159. loslothluin*

    Well, got a call from the attorney I spoke on the phone with a couple of weeks ago, and he’s set up for a meeting after work today. Unfortunately, today is jeans day at the office, and I didn’t even bother with makeup this morning, either. I tried to get it pushed to next week, but he didn’t have anything open. So, yay! Not.

    On the plus side, he did say he was extremely impressed that I’m very conscious about not letting a job search interfere with my current job and that I’m, apparently, dedicated.

    1. NaoNao*

      If you can, run by an Ulta or Sephora or even a mall department store and use their services for makeup if you feel like you would be more confident with it :)

      1. loslothluin*

        I thought that! Unfortunately, the meeting is at 5:30 and in the opposite direction. Lesson learned: always be prepared! Ha!

  160. generic creative*

    I’m starting to notice that I always have anxiety about my job regardless of the job. If it’s a job I’ve been in for a long time I notice all the toxic elements that Will Not Change or get bored, or if it’s a new job I’m stressed about not knowing everything/not feeling comfortable with the team yet etc.

    Now I’m in a job that’s tangentially connected to my desired industry for the first time, and as well as the new job anxiety (it’s been a few months) I’m being offered more responsibility and tasks but I find myself resisting. Instead of fully embracing the role I’m nervous about answering phones and talking to clients, and I’m not confident in the quality of the work I’m producing. Instead of feeling excited or determined to improve I mainly feel an underlying dread when I think about it.

    I’m pretty sure that it’s not the job (though it’s not perfect or something I originally sought to do); it’s me, but I’m not sure how to overcome this mental hurdle.

    1. loslothluin*

      Talk to a professional to find out what’s causing the problems for you. It’ll be worth every penny if you can work through you problems with an outside voice to guide you.

    2. gecko*

      This is actually a perfect opportunity for therapy and a good place you start for it. You have a problem that’s affecting your life right now, and you need strategies/tools to deal with that problem: you could get a lot out of therapy.

      I feel like it’s a bit of a gimme to suggest that, but the alternative imo is to develop those tools and strategies on your own. Try things to make you feel less anxious at your new job: ok, what if you fold a paper crane before you pick up the phone and call someone? Do that for a month, did that work? No? Ok, how about if you try for a month to volunteer for 1 out of every 2 work tasks that comes your way? Did that work? No? try something else… And meanwhile as you’re doing all this, journal to see what works and try to be kind to yourself…

      It’s a lot to handle by yourself, and therapists have been trained to have good ideas and to remember what works and doesn’t for you.

      Also, think of your ability to do these tasks that you want to do like a muscle. The only way to get better at phone calls, at this and that in your job is to exercise it. But living with this nagging anxiety is like having that muscle be sprained. You just can’t really exercise it as it’s sprained; you’d go to a doctor or a physical therapist to get it back up to speed. Similar for therapy. Best of luck!

    3. Daphne*

      Just adding I’m going through a similar thing and plan to see doctor next week about anxiety issues. New boss isn’t quite sure what to do with me and I’ve dropped the ball on a couple of tasks.

      Maybe with the extra responsibility you’re worried you’ll “get it wrong” so are resisting to do anything at all? I’ve found that when it comes to crunch point that the solutions end up being what I’ve been sitting on all along.

  161. Jayne*

    I need help with something – I overthink a lot, and I have anxiety, so sometimes I have a hard time deciding if what I did was wrong or not — my boss came to me about an hour ago, and asked if I was busy with anything (I think she needed help with something). I actually was — I have an urgent project that’s going to take me the rest of the day, and I have to finish another project by Monday (so I’m juggling both at the same time). I told my boss I was busy, and I’m really sorry. Is that okay? I’ve always had the mindset that you help no matter what, but I’m already stressing out about these deadlines, and really don’t think I could handle another project at the moment. I’m feeling really bad that I turned her down, and am wondering if I should apologize or something, or am I really overthinking it? I’d appreciate thoughts from a sound mind!

    1. Temperance*

      You are overthinking it. Don’t apologize!

      What I would have done in your situation is say that I was working on X and Y, so she knew what i was doing.

    2. Wandering Thoughts...*

      I think it’s fine! But maybe next time you can explain what has you tied up? If my boss asks something of me but I am already swamped with something else, I say ‘I am working on Project X that will keep me tied up all day; can I help with Project Z when I’m done?’ That way he knows what I’m working on at the present.

      1. Jayne*

        Thank you for the peace of mind!
        I did tell her what I was working on, so I guess I did okay!

  162. Sparkly Librarian*

    I’ve been scheduled for an interview next week. Yay, working for government! You don’t even have to apply each time a transfer opening comes up — if you’re on the list they just assume you want it. I don’t actually want to move just now, but I would be interested in the currently-open position in 5-8 years, say, so I’m taking the opportunity to learn more about it and practice my interview skills.

    Do I want to make it clear during the interview that I’m just gathering information? I don’t think it would be held against me — I know all the interviewers and have a good working relationship with them. They’d be happy to know that I am happy where I am and wouldn’t be disappointed to not be selected. And, honestly, I think there are enough people who genuinely want the job that I’m not going to get an offer. But maybe it would be better to present as if I’d love to take this position (which I would, but not right now) and see what happens.

    1. foolofgrace*

      Hmmm. Put yourself in the shoes of the interviewers. How would you feel if an interviewee told you they were just practicing and actually had zero interest in the job?

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        I have a lot of interest in the job. It will be open again in the future, whether it’s in a year or five years, and it will probably look much the same, so I’d appreciate the opportunity to ask questions and find out more about it, so I can better plan my career path. I could call any of the people on the hiring committee today and ask a few questions (I saw one in person, briefly), but I’ve already been scheduled for a meeting with them next week without having to ask. If they’re prepared to have that interview, I might as well discuss it with them all at the same time.

        If I were on their side of the interview table, I expect I’d appreciate having as much knowledge as possible about the candidates’ level of interest (and I’d be ticked off if they phrased it as “zero interest in the job”).

    2. Kathenus*

      Agree with foolofgrace. If you have no intention of taking the job currently offered its a bit disingenuous to them and to other applicants who may not be getting the chance for an interview due to you taking the slot. Maybe you could contact someone there, especially now that you might have a name or two from this process, and ask if you could meet outside of the interview process to learn more about the role? Something like “thanks for the opportunity to interview, I’m very excited about xx job and XX organization but have realized that the timing is not right for me now so am withdrawing my application for this current position. I would be very interested in meeting with someone from XX, though, to learn more about the organization and this role for future opportunities. Is that a possibility?”

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        Everyone who was on the transfer list was scheduled to interview. It’s only offered to current employees on the transfer list, so I’m not worried about crowding anyone out. I thought about declining the interview, but that would be 3 times in 2 years, and after 3 times your name gets taken off the transfer list and I would have to apply again if something opened up that I *was* interested in.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          I think it’s fine in this case to say that you aren’t necessarily looking to move immediately, but you want to know more about the role. I wouldn’t mention a specific timeline for when you *would* want this position, but given that you will lose your place on the list if you decline and didn’t actively apply for this post it’s okay to be a bit more frank.

    3. Bacon Pancakes*

      I think, as your interviewers are likely familiar with the governmental job conventions, that you could casually elude to it in the beginning.
      “Thank you so much for meeting with me. As I am sure you are aware based on my application, this job may currently be a stretch based on my experience. However I do know this is where I want to go and I am very interested i future positions because…”

  163. Environmental Compliance*

    Was talking to head corporate EHS guy about a few projects onsite, and apparently he’s currently fighting to implement a bonus system for us, so I’m pretty excited about that. I’ve never been in a place that has bonuses, I’ve only ever gotten COL raises, if that. I’ve never really had anyone that far above me seem to even care how we’re doing, let alone actively take a vested interest in improving so many things.

    Hubs has set up more interviews, and 2 more of his coworkers have recently given notice, so I think we’re up to 80% of the department (and a related department) leaving in the past 6 months. We know 3 more coworkers of his are actively looking as well.

    1. Almost Violet Miller*

      The bonus system sounds really cool, crossing my fingers they’ll actually implement it (and set motivating yet achievable targets).
      My current position is the first where I get a bonus and it’s a great feeling that at least some of my extra efforts are recognised.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        It sounds like too they’re looking at a lot of morale-related things – he just asked me recently if we ever did catered in lunches. Uh, not just for giggles, as far as I know….but I love me some free food.

        I also just got approval for going to conferences. With a reaction of “well of course we’d send you to training seminars and conferences! We have a budget just for that!” ………….I have my own training budget?!

  164. NOT a work crush*

    So… awkward… but I had a steamy dream with a colleague last night. I don’t remember anything explicit, just details that are more strange than sexy. He also promised to leave his wife for me (wtf???) but ghosted me.
    This is a colleague who works at another location and on another line of business so mostly we just wave at each other every other months he visits. Also, I do NOT have a work crush on him or anything. I think he’s good-looking and a very nice person though. In a ‘he looks balanced and happy, I’m sure he has beautiful children and an expensive and comfy sofa’ way.
    Of course he was in the office this week and came in to say goodbye and chat about the summer. I felt like it was all written on my face that my mind kept telling me ‘girl, you can handle this and his alterego wasn’t in your bed last night.’
    Please tell me this happens to other people!

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Last night I had a dream about discussing the shaving of legs with my sister and a random coworker from 5 years ago. Brains are weird sometimes.

    2. loslothluin*

      It’s happened to other friends of mine, and they said it was generally people they would never go for IRL. Brains can do some weird shit. I dreamed one night that U2 was doing my yard work.

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Oh yes, it happens…I’ve been having some really freaky dreams lately, mostly because of pregnancy. I’ve had some dreams about bosses and those totally weirded me out. You’re not alone!

  165. FuriouslyHappy*

    I’m looking for strategies from the hive mind, please. I work in an organization that recently went through a salary restructuring (yay!). I have someone on my team who has a job title (let’s call him Ned), yet does the work of a one-step-above job title (long story — but this was out of necessity before I inherited my team). Ned works hard and has some responsibilities inherited from someone else on my team who retired a year and a half ago. He does a great job, so his previous manager, and now me, have been asking our Administration to approve a small promotion so that Ned has the job title for the work he actually does. The previous manager got told no. I have now been asking, every 3-4 months, for the last year and a half . . . and tried again today. I had put together a bullet-point list of what Ned is doing, what he already does that matches the job description I’m asking him to be promoted to, pointing out his previous years of great evaluations . . . and was told there’s no money.

    I had 2 full-time people in high-level positions on my team retire a year and a half ago. I was not allowed to post those positions. I also didn’t post for a part-time person who left my team (for a full-time position elsewhere). So, I have saved my organization money in terms of 2 full-time salaries plus a part-time salary. Other people in my organization have been promoted, which I pointed out. I also pointed out that if Ned leaves and I have to replace him to do the specialized work he’s doing, it would cost more money (because I’d need to hire a specialized person instead of Ned, who has just learned this stuff over time). Now, I’m being told there is no money (because I’m assuming it went to other people), despite the fact that me and my manager have been asking for this small promotion for months and months. The answer today was no money and “well, we’re looking ahead at next year’s budget, so you can keep asking.”
    Great Hive Mind of AAM —- any ideas on how I can come at this again with another strategy and maybe get Ned this small promotion? Ned has no idea that I’m working this hard on this and keep trying . . . . and I need some suggestions of how to go at this again in a few months. Thank you!!

    1. Kathenus*

      What a frustrating situation! Kudos to you and your manager for continuing to work to get this for Ned. I definitely think targeting this during budgeting sounds like the most likely option. If you do budgeting you should know the timeline and process for how you request things. If you don’t, find out how it’s done, who it needs to go to, and what the timeline is for submitting requests. Remember budgeting is usually done many months before the new fiscal year starts, so don’t wait too long or you might miss the window. Great that you are doing this, and good luck.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I remember a similar situation coming up on AAM, though I don’t recall if it was a letter or an open thread thing. There was a manager with an unappreciated, underpaid employee, and I think the upshot was that the manager was encouraged to discuss the future with the employee and let it be known that they were pretty undervalued at the current company and could probably do better elsewhere.

      It’s great that you’re making such an effort to make sure this guy is paid and given the recognition he deserves, and if Ned is content as is, then there may not be a reason to bring it to him. But it might also be a situation where he will eventually get tired of the lack of promotion/compensation and get out anyway, so it might be a real favor to him to know you’re on his side.

      I don’t know what else to suggest, you’ve covered all the reasonable bases in making the case for him, so maybe it is just timing. Good luck!

      1. FuriouslyHappy*

        Thank you for your input! I have a meeting with my manager next week and I’m going to bring up how to approach this with the new budget and also see if we can figure out specifically when to ask about this.

  166. Rescue ALL the dogs*

    So we just found out that our department is getting moved from individual offices to a cubicle farm shortly. Here’s my problem…my job occasionally requires me to produce lengthy high level reports. I have ADD and in order to be able to do that I need complete silence and no distractions. This is normally not a problem because I have nearly always had an office door. When I’ve had a shared space I had an arrangement with my boss where I could work from home to produce these reports and it worked out great. I have heard that my current employer has a strict no work from home policy. I’ve got some paperwork from HR to formally request accommodation but 1. It says on the paperwork that they reserve the right to alter my job duties based on this (and creating these reports are essential for my career growth and the justification of my salary) and 2. I really don’t know what to request. Work from home would be ideal but since that’s a no go do I ask for a quiet space with a door? I’ve kinda heard through the grapevine that they’re not really willing to accommodate me more than throwing a set of ear plugs in my direction. The set up for the cubicles means that there’s really no way for me to avoid visual distraction, let alone noise (and earplugs/headphones only work to a point). Thoughts?

    A lot of people have been going under the axe lately and I’ve moved cross country for this job so I really want to be able to excel but also protect myself

    1. It's me*

      I thought for reasonable accommodations you couldn’t specify the accommodation yourself. I mean if that’s their process that’s one thing but I think they can propose anything “reasonable” whether it will actually work for you or not (ie earplugs, which are a no go for me too), and if it doesn’t I’m not sure how much recourse you have. That really sucks though. I have always been in a cube farm so I can’t imagine going from an office to a cube. My sympathies to you, and hope you can come to a solution that will work for you and the employer.

      1. Just Me*

        You can request a specific accommodation, but you don’t have the right to a specific accommodation. It just has to work. Like getting reading software for an employee with a visual impairment instead of hiring a live reader — probably okay. Telling the employee to just zoom in when they still can’t see the words — not actually accommodating anything.

      2. Rescue ALL the dogs*

        Yea the paperwork that HR gave me specifically asks me to identify what accommodations I’m asking for. Otherwise I would have just submitted it and assumed that it would start a conversation between HR, my doctor, and myself. But it appears that I have to come to the table with suggestions myself.

        1. It's me*

          Here’s what comes to mind as some suggestions…… is there a way you could request a cube in a quieter section of the office? Work from home 1-2 days a week? Work a flex schedule to at least get some time in before/after other people get into the office? Spring for a white noise machine? A cube with no cube mates? Can you work from a conference room for a day if you need to?

  167. Sometimes yes, sometimes no*

    How do you handle not receiving credit for things you’ve said?

    This is different from executed actions; I’m more than willing to correct someone when they claim credit for work I’ve done without acknowledging that I had a part in it (or did all of it!). This is related to idea pitching and project management.

    I was hired on to this company to represent the digital marketing angle that they lacked as a 50-year-old catalog-based company that was just now coming into the light. They hired me when they did because the new CEO really wanted that kind of representation as they were building and relaunching their website. So that’s me! That’s what I’m here for.

    As part of this project, there have been many design meetings and critical function definitions. I’ve proven myself repeatedly in offering actionable, useful suggestions about, for example, how the forms should be handled (I took that project over entirely), what is and isn’t good UX design for the functions we intend to feature, what information needs to be included. Some of my ideas were shot down, which is fine – I’m new to this industry even if I am experienced in the digital space.

    What is aggravating is that now, 4 months after the final designs were signed off on and the developer started creating the site, some of those things that were shot down are being brought up again. “Why didn’t we do this?” or “This is a great idea! We should add it,” in meetings with the same people who were there with me on the first go around.

    I don’t care about credit for the sake of it. I care that my credibility is being harmed. Those questions are accusatory. Implied – with looks and tone of voice and repeated side conversations – is “You are the digital expert; why didn’t you think of this?” And I am so. damn. frustrated. Once or twice, I have mildly added in, “You’re right, I thought that might be the case, so here’s the design from our meeting 4 months ago that I presented,” or similar, but it keeps happening!

    I don’t know what to do about it. It feels petty to keep saying “I told you so” but it is really important to me that my contributions and my knowledge-base are integrated into the decisions made about these things, and if people are getting the impression that I’m dropping the ball because of this, I’m in trouble down the line.

    Am I being too sensitive? Or should I try some other way to handle these things other than one-by-one and in the moment?

    1. Pollygrammer*

      I think you need to keep asserting that you had previously made these suggestions–it sounds like you’re already using the “yes, and” approach, which is great.

      “Yes, that was something I suggested as a possibility on the first go-round, I can see if I can dig up my notes from that meeting.”

      “That was one of the options we discussed, but it was decided to choose [x]”

      “I offered that for consideration a while back, and it’s definitely something I’d be thrilled to put back on the table.”

    2. Reba*

      Take a look at the answer and discussion on the recent post about a similar situation: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/07/my-coworker-rejects-any-ideas-that-arent-her-own-then-suggests-them-herself.html

      I think it makes sense to have a big-picture conversation about the pattern — with whom, I’m not sure. But ideally it would be great to reset your interactions with the team so that they have like a higher base level of trusting your ideas.

      In the meantime, I know what you mean about petty, but I do think you need to keep going with asserting your own ideas and the work you have already done. It’s pretty galling that your ideas are shot down and then you are blamed (?!!!) for them not happening.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      There was a letter about this that Allison answered either yesterday or the day before.

  168. EvilQueenRegina*

    Gotta love it when the work fire alarm goes off in the middle of a massive thunderstorm and we all had to stand outside in the flooded car park for half an hour! Oh well, we ended up with a surprise early finish.

  169. Elena*

    This website has been an amazing resource! However, as a teacher I have found that some things are noticeably different in the education world. For example, at least in my area of the country, it is still helpful to personally reach out to the principal after submitting an application. So I want to survey other teachers and anyone with any connection to education (spouses of teachers, administration, etc) – what have you found is a difference between the education world and the business world?

    1. Julianne (also a teacher)*

      -Flex time, what’s that?
      -No worries about how much vacation time we get.
      -No salary negotiations for many of us.
      -We worry about overtime mostly in the sense of “How many hours outside of school will I spend planning/grading this week, just for my own information?” since we’re exempt.
      -Specific credentialing requirements that are actually requirements, for the most part.
      -Business expenses LOL

    2. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Conversations here about full time office workers not having enough to do at work or only working 75% (or less) of their day is… let’s call it a glimpse into a very different world.

  170. Salad*

    I’ve been the “lead” on projects before, but they were basically projects I could handle myself and just needed one person available to help me out of needed, or there was a newer person and I was using the program to mentor/train them. I’ve just been given the lead of a much bigger program where I will have two team members and I really will be the lead (non-supervisory, our supervisor lines are completely unrelated to how our programs pan out).

    I’m confident in my job but don’t have a lot of experience delegating, and sometimes have a hard time taking control of a group. I’m also the youngest and only female. Any advice for learning how to really be a leader of a program?

    1. only acting normal*

      For delegation what worked out well for me was delegating work that wasn’t my strong suit to someone who was really good at it – that’s the best part of real teamwork.
      Also accepting that people aren’t going to produce exactly what you would have, but that doesn’t necessarily mean their work is wrong.
      Being very clear on deadlines and dependencies (if x isn’t finished we can’t progress y), and clear on requirements, and hold people to those. I struggle with the holding to account because I would never flake on a deadline so realising that others might was a shock.

  171. nep*

    Faux pas or nah?
    At my part-time job, supervisor’s last day was Monday. She’s just a couple years older than I, and we really don’t have a typical manager-direct report relationship; it’s just on paper she is head of one of the departments I work in. We chat and joke and laugh a lot–not a formal atmosphere at all. I was a the store on the way to work Monday and bought her a bunch of flowers…just handed them to her when I got to work.
    In line with my overthinking habit, later I thought–what the hell, why did I do that? Not that it would damage anything for me career-wise…I just felt a bit foolish.
    It’s done now–Just putting it out there because it can help to do so with silly stuff like this.

    5. gecko*

      Nah! Sounds really sweet, like the kind of gesture that, as a recipient, you think about warmly for a long time afterward.

    7. CM*

      At first I didn’t read very carefully and thought you randomly brought her flowers on a Monday… that would be weird. But it was her last day! That’s a nice and appropriate gesture.

    8. Bea*

      It’s okay to give flowers or a token kind of “gift” to someone who is leaving, even if it’s a supervisor! It’s just a thoughtful way to say “Thank you and good luck on your new adventures!”

      A report gave me a specialty chocolate and a sweet note for my birthday, we are similar to you and your former supervisor! Close in age, I’m a little older and are friends now that we don’t work together.

      Now if you just bought a supervisor a big gift for a special event, then it’s like “eeeeh please don’t.” but this is different. :)

  172. HeightsHeifer*

    I’m struggling a bit this week. It’s my busy time of year and my boss just left on maternity leave. I’m more than a little upset because my boss had told me on several occasions that I would be handling most of her responsibilities while she was out. I have a ton of experience, and I get good reception from the team so I felt like it would be a valid move. However she gave all her responsibilities to a remote employee in another state. This employee also has good experience but there tends to be issues that need to be handled in person that she is not available for. Has anyone gone through this? How can I keep from feeling let down?

  173. premocon*

    Who here has successfully tackled an ingrained aversion to tooting your own horn or similarly complained about how difficult a certain task was? I was raised to just work hard, quietly plug along.

    A newer team member is really good about bringing up all his accomplishments and how particularly challenging some of them were. It’s to the point where he had tried a couple of times to offload some of the more trival grunt work to me. I was just looking at our ticketing system & I’m accomplishing an order of magnitude more than this person.

    Talking about how busy I am, how hard I’m working to get a particular thing done, how fantastic it is that I was able to get this or that knocked out just feels gross to me. Others must have dealt with this. Am I right in assuming this will seriously hold me back, that others who are watching may not be paying attention to the metrics which I kinda hope speak to my accomplishments.

    1. Renna*

      I’m not management, but I do think that blatantly whining about things/tooting own horn is not a good look in any industry. Not to say you can’t say if you’re overwhelmed or extra busy, but it probably shouldn’t be all the time and mild comments in neutral/pleasant tone. “Wow, I’m glad I was able to finish that.” If you have a good boss they probably are looking at metrics.

    2. TL -*

      There are ways to do it without being gross about it! For instance, if someone mentions/compliments a project, you can say, “This one was a challenge but I’m actually really proud of how it turned out,” (if you are). Or, “Thanks! We actually have been consistently getting a 2-day turnaround for a few months now; we’re glad to see people are appreciating it!”
      “I’d love to do this project; I get compliments on my spreadsheets all the time and it sounds weird but making a beautifully functional spreadsheet is one of my secret joys in life.”
      “The metrics of that actually far exceeded our goals. I thought pushing through New Initiative would be helpful and I’m so glad it off. Always nice to confirm my judgment is good!”

      You can also do it when complimenting someone else, “Jack’s project management was exceptionally helpful. I knew I had the technical skills to get this done, but he really structured the project so all I had to do was focus on programming. That really let me go the extra mile and accomplish the AI interface.”

  174. Renna*

    Advice for writing career?

    Hi, a lot of you seem to work in literary fields and I’d love advice on what I need to do to break in. I do have a BA in English and have been told often that I write well, but I feel like that isn’t enough. I never did an editing class in college since my focus was literature/humanities, and at one point I just ran out of money. I keep getting shuffled into unrelated jobs where my writing ability is appreciated but underused, and I’m tired of these random jobs that, frankly, pay too little to support me. I’d like to start doing some contract writing, or something, part-time to help supplement my income and help me see if this is something I really would like to do with my life. Even if it’s not, it would be great to stop stressing about which bill I can’t pay at the moment.

    Do you recommend an editing course? Is it necessary if one isn’t interested in editing? Would another degree be necessary? Help, please!

  175. Tangerina*

    For the first time, I’ve had to take a Watson Glaser assessment as a part of recruiting. Is it common for employers to share the results with you, or is it more of a “nope, we paid for you to take this test so we own the results” kind of thing?

    A little part of me wants to pay to take the test independently just to see the results. I can understand if the hiring company would not want to share how your results compared against their rubric, but to just never know the results of an assessment is so irksome.

    1. CM*

      I’ve never had a company share the results of this kind of test with me, and I don’t know anybody who has. I think it would be unusual.

  176. SaffyTaffy*

    The anxiety behavior in my colleague is in full swing today.

    Banana: Do you want me to get you some salad from the free lunch downstairs-
    Saffy: Yes, thanks!
    Banana: So we get some before it’s all gone, in case there’s a mob and everybody rushes down all at once, and there’s a long line all through the lobby like at Build-a-Bear, so I’d better go down now and…

    1. TL -*

      One of my friends does this; it’s actually pretty adorable (mainly because she’s very empathetic and would never do it in a stressful moment or bad day for me, though I don’t think she realizes she does that.)
      Her: Is X okay?
      Me: Sure, I don’t care.
      Her: Because Y and Z and W, so I really need to X.
      Me: Sounds good, do what you need [returns to computer or book]
      Her: I mean, I know A, B, and C is an option, but there are really good reasons for X.
      Me [quietly amused at this point]: Okay, sounds like X is a good choice.
      Her: I really think X is the best thing.
      Me [very amused at this point]: Friend! I really don’t care, X is fine. You’re good.

      1. SaffyTaffy*

        God bless your friend for knowing not to do this in a stressful moment. I think mine does it MORE when she can feel stress (or annoyance) building. And bless you for finding this amusing, because I’d strangle your friend with my own hair.

  177. NaoNao*

    I worked in retail in the late 90s until the early 2000s, so as a teen to a young adult. I made it up to store manager for a brief time and was on salary (at a laughably low 26k a year, albeit in a low COL area 20 years ago).
    I went back to school and got my BA and completed my MA work (although had to leave before finishing my thesis, sadly) and moved into the professional corporate world, where I’ve been since 2010 or so. (If you count the call center job).

    While I like many aspects of the work and I’m making a *very* decent salary, I’m now facing an issue:

    I’m slightly overpaid for my work role. I don’t have an MA or special skills that I’m seeing as job requirements (CSS or other coding languages, video production to an expert level, special knowledge of particular tools, etc) lately. I feel like I got kind of lucky with a niche specialty in my field and rode a wave of success to my current job/role/salary.

    Well, my current job is really draining me. It’s not toxic by any stretch, but it’s just…not inspiring. We have had 5 reorgs and 3 layoffs in 2 years, and countless cycles through crappy, ill thought out changes. We were a purchased company to this much larger company and they’re slowly twilighting our product–which means my department, who specializes in training to this product, will be superfluous in a year or two.

    So I’ve been taking a look at moving back into retail management. I’m very good at it and I like it. It’s fun and challenging, with immediate daily results and rewards. It’s hard work and I feel pleasantly like I actually did something at the end of the day. Salaries and benefits have caught up with the times and are now livable at most full time management jobs.

    However, my close friends and family are shrieking with dismay and freaking out no matter what I say. They’re saying very hurtful things like “you don’t need to go back to the job you had at 21” which…why is that relevant? This is a completely different job, salary, title, role and economy. There’s no way I’d accept 26k as a salary for the hours they expected now!

    I am very disillusioned with corporate life and feel like it’s rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic in many places—so many fluff jobs, gold brickers, toxic people, and fake emergencies. Granted, retail is not some utopia!

    I guess I’m just really questioning myself: are they being classist here acting like retail management is “beneath me” and like it’s only for young people? or am I going to deeply regret moving out of an office job?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think your family and friends are being ridiculous. I do think it’s classist for people to object to retail, food service, “lower class” jobs. I hate it when someone makes a joke about only being fit to sling burgers or other nonsense like that (my former boss used to do that – he made fun of liberal arts degree holders saying they had to learn “would like you fries with that?” along with their degree. I have an English degree, so I shut him down whenever I could, but he still did it).

      If it’s a job you enjoy, and the salary, benefits, and environment of the job are something that would work for you, then I say go for it! This is not their life, this is not their choice. They can freak out privately on their own time.

      1. Rainy*

        My fiancé’s hideous aunt asked me what I had gone to school for and I told her. She said to me, “And what do you think you’re going to do with that, dear?”

        I looked at her sharply, as I am in fact employed and out of school, and said–which was true at the time–“I steer a 60m federal grant and supervise 150 people. And that’s what I do with that.”

          1. Rainy*

            It’s always so nice when the right retort happens on schedule and not two days later!

    2. Teapot librarian*

      My SIL is an amazing retail manager and I go to her for management advice. I can’t speak to whether you’d regret the move, but I do think that your friends are being classist and that because you have experience in retail management, you know what the job entails, and that it’s more than working a cash register for 4 hours after school. Do what’s right for you.

    3. Rainy*

      They are being classist. If you enjoy something and can make a good living at it, I don’t understand why anyone else thinks they get a say. Do you!

    4. Temperance*

      I’m not sure that it’s classism. You worked really hard to get out of retail management, and I would also be very surprised if, for instance, Booth decided to stop working his job and go back to working as the assistant manager at a restaurant, because he worked his butt off to get a degree and get a more prestigious/higher paying job.

    5. Antilles*

      First off, it’s your life and if that’s really what you want to do, then I wouldn’t worry for one second about it – there is a difference between being a retail store clerk/shift lead and being a general manager of the store.
      That said, I’d toss out the following cautions to think about. This isn’t to say you shouldn’t do it, just that you should really think through it, because this is a pretty big decision:
      1.) Are you thinking back about your retail jobs honestly and really remembering them right? The human mind tends to look back with rose-colored glasses and edit out a lot of negative things from years ago.
      2.) How did you feel in your previous corporate jobs? How much of your current unhappiness is the general corporate world versus the specific situation of your job? You say your current job isn’t actively toxic, but to me, it sounds extremely draining – 8 major staffing changes in 2 years, knowing your product is being retired, poor management in general, getting bought out.
      3.) If you worked in retail management the entire rest of your life and never used your degree, would you be okay with that? If you’re in a niche specialty of your field, odds are that if you walk away for a couple years into a totally unrelated field of retail management, you’re going to close the door to your current field firmly.
      4.) Are you sure about the salaries and benefits ‘catching up with the times’? I can’t claim to be an expert, but I know that part of the factor behind the (canceled, ugh) 2016 revisions to the Department of Labor OT rules was the retail and restaurant industries regularly having ‘exempt’ managers work 60+ hours for $30k. So maybe it has gotten better and I’m behind the times, but it’s worth checking into.

  178. Still early*

    What would you define as mid-level career?
    I’m in a networking group and we have a lot of just out of college members holding basic job skill events, but we’re trying to reach members farther out of college, like 3, 5, maybe 10 years out. The board keeps calling that mid-level, but I’m 5 years out and still think of myself as more early, but not entry level.
    Does that vary by field?

    1. Tangerina*

      I would call 5 years the beginning of mid-level. Perhaps the fact that people are changing jobs and careers so quickly now has redefined what we think of as mid vs early.

    2. Sam Foster*

      I’d only use “time out of college” as one of the criteria. I’d also include criteria about level of responsibility and types of work.

  179. Teapot librarian*

    I’ve been holding mid-year (okay, 3/4-year) evaluation meetings with my staff this week. Most went well. (Including a statement that “I’ve been less hostile to you.” Yes, that is true, thank you.) One got super defensive because I’ve shifted some responsibilities around and now he has a combination of responsibilities that no one in the office has ever had. This was in response to me beginning to tell him that I was assigning him two teeny tiny responsibilities that would have demonstrated my trust in him and my belief that he can progress professionally. I didn’t get that far because he started to complain about my giving him more work and why don’t I give other people in the office more work instead of him? Well, dude, because this is your job, not the job of people who already have 80+ hours of work that they are trying to get done in the 40 hours of a single week, and no, our new employee can’t do it because she is more qualified than the person she replaced and so she is doing more advanced work. Degrees aren’t everything, but you have a high school diploma and she has a masters degree, so think about how much you like your job security and inflated salary, and take a seat.

  180. futuristic*

    I need an Alison type script to talk with my supervisor. It was on my annual review as a goal last year and the year before that I need to attend a certain (pertaining to my job duties) type of workshop or seminar when one is available. I’ve also taken on more of these type tasks recently due to a coworker retirement.

    My retiring coworker received an email of a workshop in our area and suggested I ask supervisor about going . I asked and she kind of hemmed and hawed and then said “no, I don’t think it would be useful to you.”
    I know I should asked about it right then but I don’t think on my feet quickly and I was surprised she no. Coworker asked if I was going to the workshop and I told her no, as supervisor said it wouldn’t be useful. Coworker said, “I don’t understand that, it’s a beginner workshop, exactly what you need.”
    My first thought was maybe my job isn’t secure but I’ve been given more tasks and responsibility since coworkers retirement and supervisor always says we love you here, don’t ever leave.
    Should I ask about why the workshop wouldn’t have been helpful when her own goals for me were to go? I don’t want to seem like I’m demanding an explanation but it seems odd.

    1. WolfPack Inspirer*

      I think if it’s something that was on your annual review that it’s worth following up on.

      Maybe something like:
      “I wanted to ask about your perspective on the x conference. I remember you listing it on my “goals” for my performance review, and I’ve been on the look-out for things that would qualify so that I can achieve the goals you set for me. From my perspective, this looked like a good match. Can you show me what you see so I know why it isn’t a match, and I know more clearly what to look for in the future?”

      You gotta not be snarky tho – this has to be sincere.

      And it might turn out that it’s exactly the right kind of thing, but she just doesn’t like those particular workshop organizers, or knows that you’re good enough to handle something more advanced, or even just that she doesn’t have the budget for it at the moment. She might even tell you that she has a specific event in mind, or that SHE wants to pick the conference/workshop/training thing that you do.

      But I absolutely think there’s no issue in just bringing it up, as long as you’re not defensive or antagonistic about it.

    2. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      I would try to set up a meeting with her to determine why you got denied, I wouldn’t do this in a “I’m upset, I don’t get the thing” but more in a brainstorm for appropriate conferences, soliciting her superior decision making skills kinda way.

      “Jane, could we brainstorm for a few minuets about conferences? It’s been one of my “goals” for the last two year to attend a conference on “The Thing”. Sue suggested I approach you about “conference you said no too”, did you have another conference in mind?”

      Assuming she hems/haws as before –

      “Would it be helpful if I did some research about other conferences? Is there a budget/time commitment/ect. I should be mindful of?”

      This can go a few ways – one she thinks a beginner conference is a waste of your time, because you’re more advanced than you realize, two, the conference you pick is expensive/big time commitment, three, the conference you picked is more “party” then “conference, she knows this and thinks it’s a waste of money. four, there is no budget, or she doesn’t want to invest in this kind of training for you.

    3. Ethel*

      I assume your attendance at this workshop would be at no (or minimal) cost to your company. If that’s not the case, it will be hard to sell.

      Do your research on what is being offered, and then maybe say something like, “Boss, I would like to attend the Teapot Workshop. There are individual sessions on spout and lid design, as well as marketing teapots. When we’ve had our discussions on my progress, you’ve specifically mentioned my work in these areas need improvement. Our company would benefit from my attendance as I will be able to learn X and get to meet Y contacts, that are necessary for our success here.” I think the key is to frame it as benefitting her/the company, rather than just you, personally. Depending on how long the workshop is, you also may want to provide ideas on how the company can provide coverage for your position while you’re gone. If your coworker isn’t retired yet, maybe they can help cover for you.

    4. CM*

      I would say, “Hey, Coworker mentioned to me that she thought this conference would be really useful for me. I know you weren’t sure it would be a good idea, but I wanted to revisit it since Coworker recommended it and going to a conference like this is part of my annual objectives. I think it would help me learn X and Y which I can apply in my job. Can I go ahead and sign up for that, or do you still have reservations about it?” Which gives you an opening to ask followup questions about what she’s concerned about, or to ask what other conferences she would recommend if not this one.

  181. Persimmons*

    Looking for recs on good professional appearance/workwear sites. I used to follow Corporette, but the OS-breaking ads and excessive comment moderation drove me away. Similar or better options?

  182. Jenn*

    Alison, any plans to do another salary sharing thread soon? I don’t know if I can call two questions about following dreams vs. making money a trend, but it got me thinking about the salary sharing threads. I would be great if this round could include more background on how people got to their jobs (education, previous jobs, etc.) Thanks!

  183. SCshisho*

    Just a reminder of the Friday “professional development” book club. Last Friday we talked a bit about Alison’s newest book, and we’re currently voting on our book for September discussion – the link to the poll is in my user name, and if you have suggestions for titles to consider, please post them here in the comments and I’ll add them to the list. If we want to continue the conversation about Alison’s book today, the last “leading questions” from last week were:
    – What did the book make you wonder about?
    – What questions did you have after finishing the book?
    – Who would you recommend the book for?

  184. Fabulous*

    One of the new sales reps at my work is a terrible dresser. Well… she’s stylish, but like Instagram stylish for a 21-year old, not professional stylish for a casual-dress office job. Examples of outfits I’ve seen include:

    Skin-tight spaghetti-strap sundress with no bra
    Cute/appropriate dress from the front, but totally see-through in the back exposing a colored bra, paired with 4″ stilettos
    Tube top (it might have straps?) with floral shorts, paired with 4″ wedge sandals

    I reeeeeaaaaalllllly want to say something to her or her boss, but I know it’s not my place in the slightest. We have a very casual dress code here, but most people know what’s office appropriate, and there are SOME rules in place such as No Shorts and No Obscene Graphic Images. One time a guy was actually sent home for wearing shorts, so it’s not a gendered thing either. This girl is just crossing some lines and I need a place to vent instead of just doing an inner eyeroll at every bad outfit!

    1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      I’ll join you –

      The children are back – by children – I mean the just graduated from college kids our audit firm tries to pass off as “competent” employees. I have seen so many sun dresses, too short hem lines and bodycon dresses, to deal with it. We’re not casual, it’s business casual, they’re at a client site.

      When I was their age, I did not show up to a clients office looking like I was going on a hot date.

      2. I'm A Little Teapot*

        I’m an auditor, used to be in public accounting. The interns were always a gamble. Best part is, depending on the firm, Seniors ARE expected to correct the interns on dress code, since a manager isn’t always around. I traveled, so if I took an intern on an audit, we were staying overnight. Someone ALWAYS gave the intern a long talk/answered questions. I once looked at a girl and then looked at the rest of the audit team (4 hours from home) – “does anyone have a sweater or jacket she can wear today?” I’m sure it embarrassed the heck out of her, but she’d had an hour long talk specifically about dress code & travel stuff, then the weekend, so I really didn’t care, I just wanted her decently covered (and it wasn’t due to size of her bust. She could have had NO bust at all and it would have been a problem).

  185. Higher Ed Database Dork*

    The directors in my division have decided to crack down on fridge usage and sent out an email today explaining that basically everything would be thrown out each night, no matter when it was put in there. We are only allowed to keep food for the day, and we’re supposed to label it with our names (I assume to catch offenders). I don’t know what poor soul will have to clean out the fridge each day, but I’m thrilled with this new policy and look forward to a much cleaner fridge. We’ve had some truly disturbing things living in the fridges!

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Every day? Whoa. Surely once a week would accomplish the same goal.

    2. Antilles*

      Every single day actually seems excessive to me. I think it’s entirely reasonable to want to bring back leftovers from a restaurant lunch and just toss them in the fridge for the next day or bring in a small container of fruit and eat it over the course of a couple days or keep a half-gallon of milk in there to use in your coffee over the course of a week or whatever.
      That said, if your fridge has been filled with science projects, I’m guessing they’re just so pissed off that they’ve decided that going super-hardcore (at least for a while) is needed to shock-and-awe people into fixing their behavior.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        Science projects is a good description. Did you read the AAM post about the woman who would keep bags of groceries and rotting food several months old in the fridge, and constantly cross out the date on it and replace it with the current date? Just imagine a whole horde of those using the fridges!

  186. Dips*

    Should I be irritated about this? I’ve been working on a project, and the internal customer is not happy with the result. Fair enough, not a surprise. We can and will work it out. I roll my eyes at the rude emails and carry on with my day. What has annoyed me is that he asked my boss to meet privately on the topic. I’m annoyed he asked, and I’m annoyed my boss agreed to the private meeting. If it’s my project, why are you meeting on it without me? My boss’s justification is that he has to honor a request for a private meeting. I’m struggling to be convinced by the reasoning, but will allow the AAM hive mind to influence me!

    1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      oops – didn’t actually comment!

      They probably want your boss to intervene. You’re clearly not communicating in a productive way – if the emails are rude – and you are rolling your eyes – that’s not a productive relationship. Esp with the results not meeting expectations and requiring additional project time/resources.

      1. Dips*

        Useful insight, thank you! There has been clearly been miscommunication, but I guess I’m hurt my boss didn’t allow me to re-communicate what I had already explained? He apparently went to the meeting and reiterated everything I had said previously and agreed to everything I had already agreed to. But I don’t know for sure, because I wasn’t there, and this he said she said thing seems very inefficient!

        1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

          This just has to happen sometimes. If the internal client is rude/a jerk, they may need to have your boss lay down the law and basically reiterate everything you say. Try not to take it personally. The fact that your boss immediately looped you into the conversation, in my mind, means you have no cause for concern.

          1. I'm A Little Teapot*

            yeah, there are people who HAVE to have the boss tell them something before it sticks. Even if it’s the exact same wording.

        2. Beatrice*

          Allowing you to attend the meeting to repeat what you’ve already told the client isn’t going to be productive. Your boss is right to meet with them in private.

          For me, allowing a client to escalate a problem to me privately:
          1. Allows them to feel heard. If my employee is involved, it feels more like Dips+Manager continuing the first conversation with Dips. Making it a whole separate conversation with a whole separate person helps them feel heard. If my answer is the same one they heard before, it’s more impactful and there’s less likelihood that they’ll keep pushing me about it or escalate it over my head.
          2. Allows me to be more blunt with an unreasonable client, where appropriate, than I’d want to be in front of an employee who I expect to be more deferential. (I don’t have much call to be blunt with clients in my job, but I have certainly done it with internal people.)
          3. Gives me room to consider whether an exception to policy needs to be made, and gives me the chance to tell the employee about the exception I’m making in a separate conversation where I can explain why I’m making the exception and reassure them that they didn’t do anything wrong by following policy.
          4. Gives the client a chance to give me feedback about the employee’s approach and gives me a chance to ask probing questions, to confirm they’re handling issues the way I want them to.

    2. Sam Foster*

      They’re meeting without you because you are considered to be part of the problem and the requestor is looking for ways for your boss to intercede to solve the problem since you haven’t been able to.

  187. spicy_pumpkin*

    I am in a bit of a conundrum at work. Recently our developer made a program to help us in sending our clients their files without having to create a new email in Outlook, it does it for us and just sends the file. Great right? Time saver.

    Well, come to find yesterday that it doesn’t work on my version of outlook, I have outlook 2010 and my co-workers all have outlook 2013. I obviously should have tested the program before it was deployed, but the old version of the program wasn’t hard coded to only work with one version of outlook. Our very kind developer made a version for me to use until we figured out what to do/my boss could approve the purchase of a new version of outlook for me.

    My manager didn’t like that there were two version of the program and had our developer delete not only the one that he made for me, that worked with my outlook, but also delete the old version of the program that also still worked for me. My manager knows that the new program does not work and is not compatible with my system, but I guess her response to that is, “Oh well, deal with it.” Which I obviously will, but now something that took 10 minutes will take 30 (not including the prep time to get the files ready to send). On Monday’s it will take, 50-60. Not her time, so who cares, right?

    I guess I am looking for scripts to use to bring to my boss about the unreasonableness of my manager in this instance, I agree that having multiple versions isn’t ideal, but until I can use it, it seems like the only workaround. We are only an 8 person office, (that is everyone, including my boss and my manager), but we are slow about somethings and I fear that because it is me, it will never get resolved as I am a “Don’t rock the boat, just do what you need to do to get the job done.” type of person.

    1. CAA*

      I’m a little confused by the fact that your boss and your manager are not the same person, but I think you need to start with your manager. Right now you just guess that her response is “oh well, deal with it”. On Monday, can you bring her a purchase order for Office 2013 and ask her to approve it so that you’ll be able to use the file sending tool to do your job? (I don’t know what your process is, but if it’s sending an email or signing a form or whatever, get it started and loop her in as if it’s obvious that of course she agrees you need the upgrade.)

      If there’s push-back, then I think you just point out that the increased time spent on sending files means that you can no longer complete tasks x and y, or you’ll only be able to process 3 files per day instead of the 7 that you had been doing, or however your work will be affected.

    2. Temperance*

      I’m not sure that there’s a script other than “I need an updated version of Windows so I can do this thing and use this program”.

    3. samiratou*

      Were you able to pick up additional tasks or spend more time on other critical tasks as a result of this program? If so, I think your best best at the moment may be to make sure your boss/manager know that you will no longer be able to do those things until your version of Outlook is updated. That lets them decide what is the best use of your time and whether its worth it for them to have you spending your time on something other than attaching files to emails.

  188. Questioner*

    On the screen in my elevator, it said the average full-time employee only does about 2 hours and 53 minutes of work a day. Accurate? Where are you on that scale?

      1. Tangerina*

        Yeah. It’s my indulgence. I told myself when I got this new job I wouldn’t let myself get distracted. I’ve been great about not checking personal emails or Twitter, but I just can’t quit AAM.

    2. Tangerina*

      Sounds low even for me today, where I’m ultra tired after a week of intense meetings, and I’m letting myself be a bit lazy.

      Are meetings counted as work? I’m usually in 6-10 meetings a day, so hopefully they count as work.

        1. Tangerina*

          My favorites are when I dial into one with the phone and another with my computer. I tell the phone meeting that they’re going to have to say my name to get my attention, otherwise I’m listening in on the computer meeting.

          My team is forced to multitask to get work done, which means we’re never super focused in our meetings. It’s a poor way to run a business, but that’s Teapots Holdings for you!

          1. Rainy*

            I cannot imagine how you ever get anything done–except beating your heads on your keyboards.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Sounds a bit low. In an 8 hour shift, at least half of that is usually working time for me. Unless it’s Christmas.

      Thing is, the average job doesn’t have 8 solid hours of work to do. And the average person can’t focus that long either.

      1. whistle*

        Right. And if the average job did have 8 solid hours of work to do – someone else would have to be hired because people take days off!

    4. Rainy*

      During the summer? Varies, but usually at least that. During the academic year? Hahaha try 6-9 hours.

    5. Beth Anne*

      That’s actually one of the things freelancers start realizing..especially if they are tracking hours. They realize how many hours they are doing just dumb things and not actually working.

      I once listened to an interview of a mom that had to go back to work after having kids. She became a realtor. She worked from 9am-2pm (when her son was in preschool). And she’d shut her door and just work without any breaks. People in the office often said she got more done working part time in those hours than the full-time people.

      One thing I’ve realized about hourly jobs is that you often become really fast at your job and you end up filling your time with dumb things.

      1. Overeducated*

        My mom is a long time contractor and it has always driven her crazy that the full timers she worked with would do stuff like make personal calls to make Dr’s appointments at work. Now, I see the problem and there are limits, but as a full time employee now, I recently had to say “Mom, there are tradeoffs, if you don’t have the flexibility to NOT work between 8 and 5 then sometimes you’re gonna have to answer that call or make that appointment at work.” (I think I’ve worked around 7 hours and 55 minutes every day this ridiculous week, except today when I took a 15 minute break because my brain broke, and I STILL took a call from the doctor in the middle of a meeting with my coworker because I’ve been trying to get in to see a specialist for weeks.)

    6. LQ*

      I’ve started doing a lot of time tracking, for work (my decision) and personal (obviously my decision) and yeah, that doesn’t sound unreasonable. I have days where I’m really getting a LOT done (either way). But assuming you’re counting sort of real output? Eh. I mean, I like to think I’m better but an average is an average, what the hell makes you (me) so special. That said, did the 1 hour coffee with a coworker where I tried to talk to her about how she needed to stop calling another coworker hitler because it wasn’t really helping things work? Or the hour I spent pacing around a conference room moving around paper but not really making progress on the problem count? Or the hour I spent on here and researching documentation? Or the hour I spent printing out and cutting out squares of paper I didn’t use count? Or the hour when my boss is talking with me about politics (his choice not mine!)? Or the hours and hours in meetings? I’d count (and want to get paid for) all of that, but is it really “work”?

    7. wingmaster*

      My boss told me this week that on the radio, some dude was saying that to be the “most productive,” you work for 15 minutes and then a 10 minute break… And then repeat. I didn’t think this is true, but after reading your comment…maybe?!

    8. Sam Foster*

      Considering I have 8-10 hours of meetings a day, I’d LOVE to have 2 hours and 53 minutes of actual work accomplished.

    9. Ron McDon*

      I work 6.5 hours a day, and … I spend all that time working!

      But I work in a school office, where I am doing the work of two people most of the time, as we don’t have the money to hire more staff.

      All school admins I know work nearly every single minute they’re at work. It sucks!

  189. AnonAnon*

    I am SO frustrated with sexism.

    (Duh.)

    I run a leadership development program for CEOs and other executive level-leaders of very large organizations (CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, government commissioners, etc.). I’m not blind to the fact that nearly all of these folks are men (white men over 50, in particular) but yesterday, as I was identifying prospects for our next round of recruiting, it just got me down. Literally everyone on the list is a man. Two of them are men of color, both of whom are not American by birth (and came up through their companies’ foreign divisions).

    Then today I was working on a conference proposal. There will be four co-presenters, including myself. One of the four is a white man; two are white women; one is a black man. The white man is the only one of us without an advanced degree, and he has the most senior position.

    AARFGH.

    2. Amber Rose*

      I went to a leadership class for my field a couple years ago. It was all older white dudes aside from me, and one of them decided that instead of talking through the thing we were doing, he should tell me I looked like some actress. Later, I shared something that I do that everyone really liked, and he blatantly copied it for the presentation part of the class.

      Most of the dudes were pretty cool, at least, but it’s a bit disheartening.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I think it is getting better, just at a very slow pace. Doesn’t help day to day, but when you compare decade over decade…

  190. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

    They probably want your boss to intervene. You’re clearly not communicating in a productive way – if the emails are rude – and you are rolling your eyes – that’s not a productive relationship. Esp with the results not meeting expectations and requiring additional project time/resources.

  191. Time Bomb of Petulance*

    I might have a new job soon! *crosses fingers* I had a REALLY great interview the other day and an offer seems like a lock (but I don’t want to jinx it)…

  192. CAM*

    My job has always consisted partly of sales, but it’s also been heavily operations. For the bulk of my experience, the sales portion was pretty hands off as the business typically came in on its own and I just had to manage/nurture it. No problem. Last year, sales dropped way off and for the first time in seven years, I didn’t meet budget. So we put all sorts of things into place to not be here this year. And while we’re not in trouble, we’re not at budget yet either for an October event. I just had a meeting with the big boss who would only look at *my* boss while expressing her disappointment and generally telling me to bring up the pace and fast. I have been working very hard to do this and things are still slowed to a trickle. So now I’m scared I’ll lose my job, b/c it’s one that’s very easy to outsource, and also want to get out as soon as possible.

    Salespeople – any advice? I don’t even have a CRM.
    How do I manage bringing up the bottom line while being terrified I’ll lose my job?
    I love my boss and before today, loved my organization, but now want to bolt for the door immediately but don’t want to leave my boss high and dry and of course want to have something lined up.

    Just generally miserable and hoping someone out there can help….

  193. Anon yet again*

    I don’t know if I ramble or get too wordy, but sometimes when I’m talking to my coworker, they’ll be like, “Uh huh uh huh” as if to hurry me up or move on. I don’t know know- is it possible? I don’t know if it’s me or them?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Is it just the one person? Or does this happen to you with multiple people?

      If it’s just one person, does she do the same thing to others, or is it just to you?

      These will give you clues.

  194. Switch Wisher*

    Does anyone have a Masters in Library and Information Science? What kind of job (and offers) did you get after graduating and was it what you thought it’d be?
    I’ve been circling back to considering that degree over the years. Right now I’m a decently paid corporate defense legal assistant and am bored out of my skull. I want something with more autonomy that makes better use of my writing/tech/research skills. While I’m an introvert, I do well with people and my favorite jobs I’ve ever held were working at a university bookstore in college and teaching (piano).

    1. Librarian*

      I’m not sure what your salary is like but it might not be worth it. I worked in some public libraries, but mostly corporate and nonprofits, and librarian types were treated pretty much like any employee, not much autonomy, and probably about the same salary as most regular jobs. The only difference was wasting a lot of money on tuition. If I had it to do all over again I’d probably not, and just move to a cheaper part of the country for a regular job, if possible. If you live in a major city area it’s difficult to even think that you could just not pay that kind of rent, etc. I went to school years ago so it might be different now, and where you are, but I tend to think librarian jobs are just becoming obsolete.

      1. Marion the Librarian*

        +100000000000000000000

        It’s a tough field. I would do a little more research and carefully consider all options before applying to school.

    2. Mimmy*

      I’ve gone back and forth in considering an MLIS myself but from I’ve seen on here and heard elsewhere, jobs can be hard to come by. I’ve had a few people discourage me from pursuing this career.

      I’d actually love to work in a library, but I think there are more MLIS graduates than there are jobs (seems to be the case with a lot of professional degree programs, but I digress…). As “Librarian” said, it can be waste of money (and time!). I have a friend who got her MLIS a few years ago but never found a job beyond the library assistant-type job she had while pursuing the degree.

      I will say this: While I can’t speak for the autonomy, it sounds like your skills would be a good fit for the field, especially given that library services seem to be involve more use of technology skills than in the past. I would definitely do some research–informational interviews, volunteer at a library, maybe even try to find a part-time entry-level library job (I don’t think they require an MLIS…). Be absolutely certain that a library career is what you want before investing money and time. Your skills are transferable, so don’t be afraid to consider other options as well.

  195. Courageous cat*

    Ha ha ha, my job offer fell through. It was a firm offer, though we were waiting on the official written offer, but it was just a standard formality before they were supposed to send it over. So I put in my 2 weeks anyway, partially because I’m really trying to get out and get more money, and partially because I’ve never… had an offer fall through before. Ever.

    Turns out accounting did *not* approve the (very low) salary for my position, and HR is a bit shocked by it.

    Why would you not get approval for these things before posting the job, interviewing, etc????? I am so lucky my current job is able to keep me a while longer – I was slated to leave on Tuesday. :(

      1. Courageous cat*

        Thanks! It is pretty terrible. Even my current bosses sympathized heavily with me, ha.

    3. nep*

      That is awful. Sorry this happened to you. I’m glad you’re able to stay longer at current job. May a far better offer at another job come through very soon!

  196. Anon today*

    How far in advance is too far to request time off? Particularly if you’re only asking for a short amount of time (like half a day)?

    Context: I work in an admin job and am non-exempt. I want to attend a seminar related to a hobby of mine that isn’t for a few months, but I’d have to pre-register and I’d like to do so before it fills up. I’d need a few hours off work to attend, but that’s it. I’m fine with scheduling doctors’ appointments months out, but I can usually reschedule those without penalty (I’ve never had to, though). This obviously isn’t something I can reschedule, and there’s a registration cost. Is it too soon to ask my boss? Should I try to wait another month or so, at the risk that the seminar will fill up?

    1. whistle*

      I’d say make the request! It’s something you want to do and you need to lock it in, so you might as well make sure you have approval for the time off. If the boss thinks it’s too soon, they’ll let you know.

      Signed someone who is sick of getting requests for days off that can’t be approved for coverage reasons and then hearing “but I already bought plane tickets”.

    2. Pollygrammer*

      Unless your boss is weird about that kind of thing, go ahead and request the time now. “I need to register well in advance” is a perfectly reasonable explanation.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      Ask now. Worst case there is some reason your boss can’t think about this until September, and they will tell you that. Best case they say “Okay, but remind me in September” and you do that.

    4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Request now… remind closer to the actual date.

    5. LCL*

      Schedulers love people that make requests months out, as long as they are concrete.
      ‘Going to need some time around Labor Day’ is useless.
      I’m requesting a half day on September 3′ is awesome.

    6. Long Time Fed*

      I schedule my time off the day I know I need it, very often 6 months or more in advance. We need to schedule around each other and it’s fair to everyone to know of others’ commitments.

  197. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Here’s a hypothetical for you: let’s say you’re relatively content at your job, but you miss some of the work you did several years ago. A position has opened at your old company that sounds amazing and you’re mostly qualified for it; you meet their basic qualifications and have almost everything they’re looking for in their “additional”. It’s in a division you never worked in, but you used to communicate with the man who is now the SVP of the team that is hiring and you and he were always cordial, even friendly. Sounds promising, right?

    Well, the job is located in your old city, and not only can you not relocate at this time, chances are you’re moving again in a year and you don’t know where yet (partner’s job). This position sounds like there’s a lot of travel, so working remotely may not be an issue, but the job description does not indicate one way or another. You also have only been at your current job for 18 months, you held the previous one for 20 months, and the one before that for 13 months; basically, ever since leaving your old company, you haven’t found a great fit. (You were at your old company for nearly 10 years.)

    In this situation, would you apply? Reach out to the SVP and ask about openness to working remotely? Let it go and hope another opportunity pops up in a year?

    1. CAM*

      Apply and then reach out to the SVP to give her a heads up you applied but are hoping there is a remote option but if not, totally understand, best wishes.

  198. An.on.y*

    We have annual training on security because we handle PII. Someone failed to proofread the slides because it says managers should support and evangelize the security policies. Evangelize is not a word that belongs in most workplaces, it was funny but I bet not many folks ready closely enough.

    2. Junior Dev*

      Eh, I’ve seen it to mean someone should be an advocate for something. Makes sense for security practices

    3. Antilles*

      I actually don’t think it’s a word that would cause issues in most workplaces. Evangelize is used every now and then in non-religious contexts, so I don’t think it’s totally out of place. There are certainly better alternatives, but I don’t think it’s actively offensive or anything that would make it specifically inappropriate.

    4. A username for this site*

      I have seen “evangelize” used frequently in job descriptions, mostly Silicon Valley sales/marketing roles. For example:

      “We are looking for a rockstar marketing ninja to evangelize our mobile games with excessive in-app purchases designed to confuse small children! We need a team player who works hard, plays hard, and is an expert in social media viral marketing!”

      1. CM*

        Agreed, not weird to me to see “evangelize” used at work to mean “be a champion for, try to get other people engaged in, spread the word about.”

  199. Junior Dev*

    How do you keep it together at work when you are distracted by your personal life?

    My close friend is having a mental health crisis and it’s pretty upsetting. I’m doing my best to cope but some days I just end up crying in the bathroom.

    Any advice? Does Alison have letters about this? I feel so sad that on top of seeing my friend suffer I have to pretend to be fine most of the day.

    1. Nita*

      I’m really sorry. I hope she’s getting help, and that the help will be effective. Are you very busy at work? I think juggling many things with urgent deadlines is something of a distraction. And try compartmentalizing and not thinking about her problems at work, at least some of the time. Use work as an escape. I know that sounds kind of callous, but if you’re very involved in helping her when you’re not at work, it’s kind of like putting your oxygen mask first. You’re really doing it so you can be more help to her when you’re off the clock.

      And there’s nothing wrong with crying when you’re overwhelmed…

    2. LGC*

      Seconding Nita. And actually, I had a similar situation last year!

      I disclosed parts of what was going on to my boss (who is generally pretty cool about that sort of thing), and I explained a bit more to my co-manager (who’s a good work friend). Thankfully everyone was REALLY supportive!

      Mostly, I just tried to work and use that as my escape. I cried a bit, although I tried to plan it out and do it in private. I apologized for seeming a little out of sorts to my team although I didn’t explain the exact situation to them. (They kind of figured it out because I wear my heart on my sleeve and they got me a “we care about you” card. I reacted by immediately crying because I was SUPER emotional to begin with and running out of my office because I’m insane and don’t allow myself to cry in front of people I supervise even if it’s a positive thing.) I set aside some time to call my therapist and cried some more in our basement (and then tried to hide the fact I’d been crying because I’m an insane person and I was more concerned with saving face).

      But that’s also what worked for me. Some people – like me – need normalcy to hold onto when it seems like everything is going insane. You might need a couple of mental health days for yourself to cope. I was self depreciating about my crying at work – but to be serious, in hindsight it wasn’t the worst thing in the world because it was a reasonable response to what I was going through. Explain it’s a personal thing in as much detail as you feel comfortable with if people notice.

  200. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

    I would probably let it go –for now. As you said, you are not able to return to your old city (where the job is located) and you may be moving again. Once you get settled, then look for new opportunities.

  201. SciDiver*

    Good news from this week! Got an email from my sort-of boss suggesting to my actual boss that I present the project we’ve been working on at a meeting later this month and my actual boss approved the plan! Not quite a conference level talk but still–this is my first real research job out of school and I’m so excited to get to talk about my work with people in my field (all of whom will be more advanced in their careers and can offer comment, feedback, etc. on where we are now).

  202. Nita*

    Ugh, I have a problem. My company picnic is this Sunday, and for the first time in a few years I’m going solo with the kids – my husband is stuck in the city because of a family emergency. Now, my mom has invited herself because she wants to “help me watch the kids.” She went last year and made some really off-color racist comments about my co-workers. I was too shocked to respond, and thankfully no one overheard, but I would really prefer not to have her help at the picnic. I don’t want to hurt her feelings because I suppose she genuinely wants to help, but I really need a tactful way to say no. FWIW, the invite is for any family members, not spouses and kids only, so I can’t take that angle.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Oof that is a rough one. Could you tell her it’ll be boring/the weather will suck/there are lots of parents there with their kids so you’re worried she’ll be less-than-occupied while your kids are off with other families’ children and you’re mingling with coworkers? That sounds less than good as I type it out – I’m not sure there is a good solution to this.

      Is there a way you could talk to her about it, if there’s no good way out? Maybe as a “I have a pretty diverse work team, so you might be engaging with a variety of people there like last year. Could we talk about that beforehand?” Or, not that you want to shame your mom, but if she does say something would you feel comfortable calling her out in a group for saying something not okay, or taking her aside to talk about it and apologizing to your coworkers later?

      I feel for you though and hope there’s a way out I haven’t thought of – good luck!

      1. Nita*

        Yes, I’m considering just being brutally honest and telling her she cannot come because she insulted my coworkers. She might as well know. It’s just that my mental health is stretched a little thin these days, and I don’t need the drama of having this conversation with her, or the fun of watching her if she goes. I’m thinking I’ll just skip the picnic if I cannot think of a good excuse.

        1. Rainy*

          I would go with the real answer here. She has lost company picnic privileges because she insulted your coworkers.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      How hard are the kids to wrangle, especially compared to last year? If they were 2 and 5 last year but now they’re 3 and 6, maybe you need less help because the older kid is more mature? (Note: I do not think 6-year-olds are easy to wrangle in general.)

      1. Nita*

        I don’t think they’ll give me any trouble, there’s going to be a lot to entertain them! The only thing is, the little one gets car-sick sometimes. Mom’s whole reason for inviting herself is that sitting in the back with her will somehow make her feel better (I doubt it).

    3. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      I understand – I have similar parents. You should just be honest, the last thing you need right now is for your mom to jeopardize your job. That’s how I’d phrase it. “Mom you can’t go because you call my co-worker a “terrible horrible thing”, if someone overheard you I could be fired.”

      You can debate the horrible thing later, but for right now, take the stand of her attending means you might get fired and you just can’t have that.

      1. Nita*

        Ooh, I’ve got to say that… it would be priceless! For context, a few years ago I asked her if she could bring a relative’s resume to the manager of another department. She. Freaked. Out. Said that she cannot possibly even consider it, her reputation is on the line, what if she gets fired?! (As far as I know her workplace is pretty sane and the other manager is not a monster.) I guess it’s time for me to freak out about protecting my reputation :)

        1. CM*

          I was going to say, just tell her that you are taking the kids on your own, and if she invites herself along, reiterate that you’ll be going alone with the kids. No explanation. But it sounds like you are willing to call her out on her behavior, and I think that’s great. I like taxreturns’ suggestion.

  203. AnonyMouse*

    Question for those who work 100% remote positions and/or work in higher education administration- I currently work in higher ed, and I’m actively job searching right now. Because it’s mid-summer, job postings have slowed down and I haven’t had much success with getting interviews or anything like that (I was also searching from March-May, and was contacted for several positions. Most of them just didn’t pan out/weren’t the right fit. I did receive one offer, but I posted a few months back about what happened with that… long story short I had to turn it down. I say this because I’m not necessarily worried about quality of my application materials, I think it’s just a slow period for hiring in the field).

    A few postings have come up for 100% remote positions within higher ed (things like online advisors, enrollment counselors for global campuses, etc). They are all at reputable institutions too. I’m debating applying for these. They would give me the opportunity to relocate (which is primarily why I’m looking) since I can work from anywhere. But I don’t know if I would like working from home. It would probably be temporary (like 2-ish years), because I would eventually want to be back on a brick and mortar campus.

    For those working remotely, how do you maintain a social life/social interaction outside of your work? I feel like going to work is such an ingrained part of my routine and one of the primary ways I get social interaction with others (I’m single, with no kids, in my late 20’s). Also, if you worked remotely and then transitioned back into a regular work environment, how did this go for you? Lastly, for those in higher ed, are job postings likely to pick back up in the fall? A few of my peers told me that has been their experience, but others have told me that more jobs usually open up after the new fiscal year starts and so far that has NOT been my experience this month.

    1. Rainy*

      Job postings in higher ed: my experience is that there is usually a summer slump because everyone is on vacation and it’s hard to put together a search. I’d expect to see an uptick again around August. We often look for people either toward the beginning or toward the end of summer but rarely right in the middle, fiscal year notwithstanding. For example, in my office of 40+ there are about 10 in today. We ran a search in June three years ago and I don’t think anyone wants to do that ever again.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        Whew! Thank you! I know our field ebbs and flows with hiring (I noticed a slow down in March too, which I figured was due to spring breaks varying across institutions), but I can’t help but panic whenever it slows down. Even though I know things will pick up again, my brain automatically goes “There are no jobs! We’re stuck here forever!” even though that’s not a remotely rational thought.

      2. NeverNicky*

        I work remotely full time and that coincided with relocating to be with my partner.
        We had been doing the long distance thing and had established some social links through our hobbies but I made more efforts once moved – I saw a craft group meeting in the library so found out more and joined them, and found a WI. I also joined the professional organisation for my field and ended up on the regional committee.
        This more than makes up for any lack of daytime socialness and in fact I’ve cut it back a bit because it turns out it was too much!

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Summer slow -down – yes this is because people go on vacation and they tend to take loooong vacations, and it’s hard to get all the necessary people together for hiring to move along. Many universities have very generous leave policies, so it’s not unusual for people to take 2-3 weeks off during the summer (some even take a month). My university is public, so our fiscal year rolls over on 9/1, meaning we will lose some of our PTO if it’s not taken by Aug 31, so things get really slow and quiet during the summer months. The postings will pick back up in the fall, especially if their fiscal year begins on 9/1, because that’s when all the depts get fresh money.

      Working remotely – I worked remotely for 60% of the week before coming into my current role, where I am now 100% on site. I thought it would be a tough transition, as I’m a curmudgeonly hermit and love my alone time, but I’m actually enjoying it – I think because I have a team I actually like, and I can be more efficient in person in my division (IT) than working remotely.

    3. Lia*

      I am in higher ed administration, and work on-site now, but in a prior career, I did work remotely.

      yes, this is a very slow time for jobs in all parts of higher ed, but in administration, summers are slower yet — many vacations, so people are out of the office. In my field, while we do not slow much, summer is definitely slower than the rest of the year, with the start of each semester the busiest. What area are you in? Admissions work will pick up in fall, same with anything financial. If you are looking for dean or department chair assistant type things, again, once people are back on campus, those will post. Development? Right now is probably slow too. I like HigherEd Jobs for postings, and also look for professional organizations within your field. They often have job boards.

      If you work remotely, and want to be social, you need to be creative. Meetup groups are great. So are fitness classes or groups. I run, and am in several run groups that meet in the evenings or on weekends, and it is a good way to meet people and get a workout in at the same time! If you work at home, a separate office is good, and a way for you to save on taxes potentially. It also puts you in the mindset of “this is work time” rather than a laptop on the couch or at the table. Too, you can then close the door after hours.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        I’m in academic advising right now, and I’m looking at a plethora of student service functional areas (i.e. admissions, academic advising, career services, event management, etc). We’re semi-busy during the week with orientation, but on non-orientation days in the summer our office is basically dead.

        I check HigherEdJobs, but I also prefer to just check the institutions job boards directly. I have a spreadsheet with the institutions in my search radius and links to their job boards. I go a daily check of the list, and then I have a second tab with everything I’m interested in applying for, deadlines, etc (yes, I’m this kind of person).

        Also thank you for the thoughts on remote work. I’m still debating the remote positions I’ve come across, but given that the consensus is that we’re in a hiring lull I may just trust that more jobs will open within the next couple of months.

    4. Little Bean*

      I work in higher ed. I am only remote 1 day per week and I love it. I have a good friend though who was doing 100% remote and she recently left her position after 3 years, largely because she needed the social interaction of an in-person role again. She did have a team who she kind of became friends with through their chat system, enough that the ones who lived nearby would very occasionally meet up in person, but that’s still a much tougher way to connect than working together everyday.

      I think it depends on the situation in your personal life. If you have a lot of friends or family and a pretty active social life outside of work, I think that would be better for remote work. But I would be wary in your case since you say you are single and considering moving to a new area soon. Unless you know that you are very good at getting out and meeting new people outside of work, I’d worry that you will feel isolated in your new location.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        The new area I’d be relocating to would be closer to my family and friends that I grew up with. So it would actually be the opposite since I’m more socially isolated now in my current location (I’m 1.5 hours from my family). However, when I moved to my current location it was very difficult and I’m afraid of putting myself in that situation again. Hence why I asked the question.

  204. Pineapple Incident*

    Sigh… just finished a really last minute task that my boss forgot to ask me about until… 40 minutes ago, when I leave at 4. It’s urgent, had to be done today, and involves another branch of the government. I like my boss a lot and this sort of thing is super rare, but I’m pretty sure he had the email asking him about this 2 weeks ago, and it either got buried in his inbox or was hoping it wouldn’t end up being our problem. Commiserating with all the other folks out there with last-minute Friday work requests – I feel you 100%. Thank heaven for the FREAKIN WEEKEND BABY!

    1. CM*

      3:58 email from boss asking me to handle something… I’m on vacation Monday and Tuesday, so I’m going to be finishing up the new task over the weekend. :(

  205. Erin*

    Has anyone ever worked as a hotel maid and dealt with hair dye stains on pillows, towels, and in the tub? Is this a non-issue and it’s cleaned like everything else, or are people ever charged for that?

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I can tell you from a guest perspective I’ve never been charged for towels. In my case it’s the usual color bleed from wet hair on the towels or the pillow case the first few days after my salon visit. Can’t say it’s bled enough to stain the tub though.

      Are you planning on dyeing your hair in a hotel bathroom? That I wouldn’t do, in case the stains are bad enough to warrant a damage charge. Beyond that it’s kind of a crappy thing to make a big mess for someone else to clean.

    2. Naturally Gray For the Rest of My Life until I go bald*

      I’ve been involved in dying incidents – it really depends how bad the mess is. Bad enough and you can get black-listed from something like a sci-fi con. In our case we offered to pay and they said not to worry (there were couple of towels that were just a total loss, and likely a pillowcase).

  206. Temp with Tan Lines*

    I’m temping but am taking a week long vacation (starting tomorrow, YAY!). Everything’s been a approved, no problems. I barely get emailed on a normal basis, so is it worth it to set up an automatic reply?

    1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      yep – it can’t hurt and if someone forgets you’re out they won’t get pissy not being able to find you

    2. nep*

      I would. Doesn’t hurt, ensures people will be informed if need be, and it reflects better on you to have covered that for your absence.

  207. Erika22*

    Feeling frustrated that I’ve been job hunting for about a month and still haven’t even gotten a phone interview, just plenty of rejection emails (which is nice in that I’m not just left hanging I guess). I’m going to try and focus on finding recruiters next week and completely reworking my CV/usual application text. My ego is just taking a hit, and I need to find something to do regularly outside of job hunting to feel like I have a purpose. It also feels like I can’t focus 100% on job hunting because there have been some issues with our flat that I’ve been handling, and my partner has started working from home a couple days a week, so those days feel unproductive for me.

    tl;dr job hunting is unsuccessful so far and I’m feeling insecure and whiny

    1. Lentils*

      <3 My wife's been job hunting for a couple of months now. It's such a demoralizing, dehumanizing activity. I'm sorry you're feeling discouraged and insecure and I really hope something works out with a recruiter or that you get a phone interview soon, at least. Internet hugs if you want them.

    2. nep*

      More than a year here. I hear you. It is a massive hit to the morale and self-confidence. Good idea to seek out non-job-search-related activities that are gratifying and can help the morale.
      Hope you’ll be able to resolve the issues with the flat soon so you can focus more on the job search and on ways to give yourself an occasional lift.
      All the best to you.

  208. Lentils*

    I haven’t been able to find any questions quite like this one, so please feel free to just link a post if I’ve overlooked something.

    What kind of things can you say to a supervisor who makes questionable/inappropriate comments? One of my supervisors, S, is very chatty and tends to either overshare or try to talk about uncomfortable topics at work. There are a few different types of comments:

    1) She talks about how her bra digs into her during the workday, how she has a wedgie, or jokes about how she might accidentally “flash” someone when she needs to crawl on the floor to get under her desk. She also tends to use “cutesy” language to describe bodily functions, like “I’m gonna go potty.”
    2) She tends to overshare about her medical issues, which is sometimes helpful (she will sometimes preemptively apologize for how a bad mental health day might make her snappish), but also goes into unnecessary detail about the side effects of her new medications, for example.
    3) I believe she is trying to be a progressive person, but sometimes her thoughtless comments make me uncomfortable. She will make occasional jokes out loud about the origin or pronunciation of a customer’s name, generally those of East or South Asian origin. Once she engaged me in a 15-minute conversation while on the clock about how she wanted to create a story “where gender and race didn’t matter,” which she went on to explain was because she had recently had an “epiphany” regarding racial discrimination and how people of color experience it. This involved multiple things, but the part I remember was that she had to make a PowerPoint for a work presentation that used stock photos of families, and after awhile she realized that all the families coming up on Google were white. (For context: she is white, I am mixed-race Chinese/white and people often assume I’m white.) These incidents made me uncomfortable because, well, I’m not exactly interested in having conversations about discrimination and racism with my superiors during the workday. In the final case, I did politely push back a bit by mentioning that I was aware of that particular issue, as my interracial family is underrepresented in the media, and she sort of brushed it off and changed the subject.

    Mostly these incidents are just annoying, but another coworker who is also Asian mentioned that S made a joke about someone’s name the other day and how it was “probably Chinese” due to the unusual spelling. That got me thinking, is there anything we can do or say when our supervisor does stuff like this? Or do we just have to shrug it off? S already feels a bit like we gang up on her because various team members have had legitimate issues with the way she communicates or interacts with us. So I don’t want to come across like I’m lecturing her, but I don’t like having those conversations or hearing her TMI comments either. Any suggestions anybody has will be super helpful, thank you!

    1. foolofgrace*

      Ugh. I hate grown-up women (and it is usually women) who talk baby talk like “potty”. I also hate “hubby” but that’s just me. Sorry I have no constructive advice other than saying “Um, I really need to get back to [project], sorry…”

    2. nep*

      She sounds awful.
      I will be interested in responses here regarding how to address a supervisor making inappropriate (re: race) comments.
      (This adult person in your workplace says ‘I’m gonna go potty’?!)

      1. Lentils*

        Not every day or anything, but repeatedly, yes. I’m not 100% sure of her age range but she’s definitely at least a decade older than me, who is mid-20s. It’s…she’s an interesting person for sure. I do feel kind of bad for her because, while I’m not her biggest fan, I think she’s mostly just kind of lonely and doesn’t know how to interact with people. I’ve learned from the less awkward chat sessions that she married young with a lot of gross gendered expectations placed upon her, didn’t have much of an education, and then when she got divorced she floundered around for awhile not sure what to do with her life. So now she doesn’t have much of a social life and somehow, no one ever taught her professional norms. It’s an unfortunate combination given that I think most of her social life is at work.

        1. nep*

          Interesting perspective. Kind of you to consider some of the conditions/circumstances that might be at the root of some of her behaviour.

    3. CM*

      Some things you can say in the moment:
      “It makes me uncomfortable to hear you joking about how Chinese people’s names are pronounced.”
      “Even though I know your intentions are good, I want you to know that it sounds racist to make comments like that.”
      I tend to be a little blunt about these things, so my reaction would be to make a face and say, “Hey, that sounds pretty racist.”

      I would ignore the “cutesy” language, and you can walk away or change the subject when it comes to oversharing.

  209. Hrovitnir*

    OK. Keep putting off posting here because I really want to catch the thread pre-1000 comments, but that’s the middle of the night for me so here we are.

    I’ve been ranting to my co-workers enough, gonna spill some of it here. Since I tend to write novels I’m gonna do a bullet point list to avoid it:
    *After ~6 months on a temp contract through an agency I’ve been offered a fixed term position, which is nice.
    *My boss wants me to take a more supervisory role (which I sort of already do, with our team of 6 temps that work almost entirely independently), but acknowledges she’s not paying me more for it – and has also told some permanent staff members I’m a kind-of supervisor, but not the people I’m supposedly supervising. >_>
    *This is a government lab job, and despite a million layers of managers, and meetings, and months of analysis, they still managed to let 2/3 permanent staff members in our group leave without replacing them and are doing a huge hiring spree approximately a month late. So currently the most experienced temps (myself and the other woman who has been given a contract) are learning the final reporting paperwork, but we’re all at different stages of competency.
    *The woman “teaching” us this is a stress-merchant (very performatively stressy, doesn’t take breaks and acts hard done by about it) who I thought was going to be difficult to work closely with, but I have now discovered she’s a low-level petty bully. Plus her intermittent micromanaging, complete with patronising lectures about how important our work is, when she says repetitively she “doesn’t care” about most of her job and does a terrible job of the actual sample processing, is hard to take.
    *Because the two of us are now direct employees we’re expected to do this absolute mountain of SOP reading and inductions, which really, really grates when our workload is already too high for us to meet despite increasing throughput 3-fold, and they want us to do more without allowing overtime or new equipment. We’re getting new staff but it will be more training, and the limiting factor is equipment.
    *Our manager refuses to engage with the realities of the situation (she is continuously being harassed from on high so I have a lot of sympathy), so we’ve had this ongoing debate where she wants us to process high-priority samples before low and medium, but since we receive more samples a day than we can process that means never(?) doing the low and medium. We ignored this and did the urgent, then everything in chronological order for a long time, but just last week after a loooong meeting we acquiesced. Less than a week later we’re being asked to do some low samples “sometime”, because they are getting old. O_O O_O O_O
    *I like the group we’re in, but some of the other groups are suuuper toxic. One of our temps is working in another team that treats him as disposable; they want his labour but not to induct him into more advanced work (despite him having a PhD and this being extremely basic lab work – they do need this), and he spends more than half his time working for us. The senior scientist in the group is incredibly unpleasant and has been poisoning the well to his manager re: the temps. He is so petty as to jokingly-not-joking complain because we are actually cheerful and not working in oppressed silence.

    That was probably too long still. I’ve been sick, we had to put one of our cats down last week, I’ve been in a different lab learning paperwork from someone who periodically treats you like scum rather than where I want to be, processing samples and streamlining processes. I’m just too tired for this right now. Overall I do like it, but I want to stop getting other peoples’ politics vomited all over me.

  210. Trixie*

    I mentioned last week I was anticipating offer for internal position and today received the call. I am drowning in my current role which is poorly structured. New role has clear role and chain of command. Salary bump is cherry on top. Hoping for couple days off between gigs. In the mean time, making lists for transition and thinking of what clothes to buy. I rarely splurge but this is a worthy moment.

    Happy Friday! And continued best wishes for everyone else still searching.

  211. Kat in VA*

    This is at the end of like +1500 comment so no one will see it…

    But one of the companies I’ve been yammering about over the last week – the one with the absolutely marathon interviewing schedule – told me today that I’m their top candidate, and pending references checks, are working on approval to extend me an offer.

    I feel like I am going to throw up, I’m so stressed.

    1. nep*

      WOW, Kat in VA. What a thing to hear after such a process!
      Congratulations on being top candidate and for your perseverance.
      The stress is understandable, especially given that things are not 100 percent locked in yet. Did they give you an indication of when you might hear?

      1. Kat in VA*

        Thank you!

        One of my references said the email requested feedback Monday/Tuesday due to “urgency” which makes me happy? I’m urgent!

        I also have to remind myself that things can still change, so I can’t put my *heart and soul* into this. Not yet!

    2. Trixie*

      That is great news! Yes, the anxiety is just about too much especially after marathon interviews. So close to finish line!

  212. nep*

    For those of you who work as software developers or computer programmers–Have you got a computer science degree? How many years did you spend learning coding? (If you want, specify the kind of work you do.)
    Not looking to shift to that industry…just reading and viewing a lot about code lately and doing some free online lessons. I’m fascinated by code and curious to know what that process looked like for people in that field.

    1. Annie Moose*

      I went the traditional route–I have a BS in computer science, which at my university meant a pretty heavy concentration on programming all four years. I had dabbled in programming when I was in high school, but I really only knew the basics (literally–I knew BASIC!), so I don’t count it much.

      I’ve always worked as a developer since graduating, first C# and now Java.

    2. L-cJ*

      Non-computer science BA. I’d done some programming courses in middle/high school and at summer camps and later did a condensed program at community college (2.25 years, including 3 co-op terms and a capstone project). I’ve been working as a developer since graduating the program.

    3. nep*

      Thanks for the responses.
      I suppose I worded that question badly, as I meant how much did you have to study coding before landing a job (as you’ve both answered). Beyond that, I reckon the learning goes on forever.

  213. Annie Moose*

    Late in the day, but I feel the need to rant anyway.

    This one dude. This One Dude that I work with. I can’t stand him, and my loathing for him has only deepened over time. In a vague attempt to help myself cope (and as a prize because I didn’t punch his face today), I present a list of reasons why I hate This One Dude:

    * groped an intern at a sort-of-not-work-related-but-only-coworkers-went bar crawl, after attempting to get her black-out drunk (he got a talking-to from HR for this one, at least)
    * never does any work, according to my friend who works the closest with him, but loudly talks about how busy he is and how much he’s doing and how smart he is at every opportunity
    * is the smuggest dude alive. His face is smug. His voice is smug. His body language is smug. You look up smug in the dictionary, there’s a picture of him in all his smuggly glory. He is convinced that he is the smartest, most talented person alive.
    * despite this, he’s actually useless and never knows what he’s talking about and has actively caused problems with clients because he doesn’t know anything.
    * keeps sticking his nose into other people’s business and trying to “help” them, especially new employees who don’t know better yet, and acting as if he knows more than the experts on our team
    * does that really annoying thing where a woman says something and he ignores them and then repeats the same thing five minutes later as if he came up with it entirely on his own
    * constantly making little jokes that are just a little bit too close to the line of objectifying women, violence against women, etc.
    * IS PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE OF HEARING AN ENTIRE SENTENCE COME OUT OF A WOMAN’S MOUTH WITHOUT INTERRUPTING HER

    Anyway I had a two-hour meeting today that he was a part of and he spent the entire time being smug and pretending to know more than anyone else (especially more than my friend who has to work closely with him–who has SIGNIFICANTLY more experience and knowledge than him, and also way less smuggery) and it was awful. The only good part was when I hummed the Final Fantasy victory fanfare and he referred to it as “obscure” and from Legend of Zelda. Our manager, who is a massive Final Fantasy fan, was so appalled.

    Someday he’s going to get fired, either for his incompetence or the sexism. And I’m going to laugh and laugh and go out to celebrate with my friend.

    1. nep*

      UGH you poor thing. He sounds absolutely unbearable.
      (Only a talking-to? Not even a warning?)
      Hope for all y’all’s sake he’ll be gone soon. Disgusting.

    2. Bacon Pancakes*

      *Double chest thump* Preach sister!
      My coworker called today to tell me he needed supplies (okay, so you didn’t prepare?) and when I told him I couldn’t bring them to him but I knew who he could ask from the office, he tried to argue why I was available (I wasn’t) and then hung up on me when I told him again to call the office because I was unavailable.
      The supplies weren’t even needed because he felt like he “did enough for the day” an hour and a half early and came back in the office. Presumably to write a memo to our boss (who is on vacation) about why won’t I submit to him (actual words used by him to one of our female seasonal employees last winter). I am project lead while our boss is gone. The acting supervisor is stationed 30 minutes away.
      Ugh, writing this out makes me want to drink wine.

      1. Kat in VA*

        He actually used the term “won’t submit to him” on someone else?

        I mean, I never judge anyone’s kink and I’m all for having fun, but those terms are absolutely not to be used in an office setting.

        I’m appalled. What year is it again?

        1. Bacon Pancakes*

          Yup. He demanded a female employee assist him with a task that would take an hour 15 minutes before her 12 hr shift ended. When she told him no because it was out of the scope of work for her that day, he asked her why she was refusing to submit to him. He has no authority over her, cannot authorize overtime, and EWWWWWWW. WHY WOULD YOU SAY IT THAT WAY??!!

    3. only acting normal*

      You just described a former team leader of mine. Right down to abusing the intern at a works do (only that happened 15 years ago, and she was the office junior). The shouting match I had with him in the middle of the office was not my most professional moment, but I have a hard time regretting it (and I got in zero trouble despite him calling in HR to have words with me).

      1. Kat in VA*

        I am a firm believer that some jerks will continue to be jerks because (a) normal folks are so appalled at their behavior that they’re left speechless, and/or (b) no one will actually resort to using words as fisticuffs to make them back down.

        Like the rude lady who keeps shoving you with her cart in the grocery store. Most people just endure it, mutter under their breath, maybe turn around. But maybe she’ll quit doing it the day someone whirls around and yells STOP PUSHING ME WITH YOUR CART, DAMMIT…like I did in Harris Teeter earlier this week.

        And yes, it was totally intentional. Four bumps in a row, in increasing intensity. It was not my finest moment. She stopped bumping me.

  214. Biscuits*

    Maybe late to the party, but just read an article about a certain company banning meat. No longer reimbursing meals that have meat in them, and not catering it at corporate functions. Referred accommodations to policy teams. I’m not sure how it would be taken to BYOM. Their goal is to reduce their carbon footprint.

    Not gonna lie, I’d quit over this. The last thing I need is a company policing my food options because of a superiority complex. (This isn’t a company that has a vegan/vegetarian mission by nature.)

    Also, my coworkers were very dramatic today so maybe that’s rubbing off on me.

    1. nep*

      Interesting.
      I can see a company doing this. And I can see people not wanting to live with it so quitting.

      1. nep*

        (I predict that this is going to be a trend at some point. Not across the board, of course, but a trend.)

    2. tangerineRose*

      I googled it, and it sounds like employees can bring meat in, but still…

      I don’t even eat meat, and I’m annoyed by this. Especially for the reimbursing meals part. I mean, OK, they don’t want to serve meat, fine, but if someone traveling for the company has a meal with meat in it, they don’t get the per diem? That seems wrong to me.

      Also, how picky are they about this? At Chipotle, they warn people that the refried beans might have some meat broth (but no actual meat pieces). Does this count?

      1. Nita*

        Yeah, that seems like a way to nickel-and-dime employees to make the company look good.

    3. Rainy*

      Same. I have a lot of food allergies. I can eat vegetarian (never vegan) for the occasional meal, but not 5 days per week, and catered meals of any kind usually wind up with me gnawing on a roll and maybe a little pasta if I’m lucky. Intentionally vegetarian meals and I’m sneaking out somewhere.

    4. TL -*

      Oh, I’d quit over this so fast. The only serving vegetarian foods wouldn’t bother me as much (though I wouldn’t be able to eat it, most likely, because I have lots of food allergies and vegetarian/vegan food is particularly difficult) as long as part of my work deal wasn’t free meals provided by the company.

      But not reimbursing food? I need to eat red meat regularly or I get pretty anemic. And steakhouses are some of the best places for me to reliably be able to get food I can eat. So that would make it impossible for me to do work travel without subsidizing the costs out of my own pocket and that’s a hard no.

    5. Gatomon*

      ??? Wowza. I would have a hard time with this and would probably quit too. I can’t eat wheat, and I recently went to a conference where the meals were provided for the whole week, so no company reimbursement. There was 1 meal on one day that was gluten-free and NOT salad/fruit. I don’t know who planned the food for that event, but I hope they feel my eternal wrath. I ended up leaving and getting fast food a few times because I desperately needed some damn protein.

      1. Rainy*

        Yeah, I have that issue sometimes with conference meals. It’s extremely common for catered meals like that to use chicken as the protein because it’s cheap and intended to suit both meat-eaters and people who eat no red meat, but I’m allergic to chicken. Pasta is often pre-sauced and the sauce contains stuff I’m allergic to (and even if it’s not pre-sauced, there’s only so many times you can put a pat of butter on a serving of congealed rotini and pretend it’s lunch), and the salad blends for catered meals usually have greens I’m allergic to in them, so I can’t even eat the salad anymore.

        I’ve also had to stop eating buffet scrambled eggs because they’ve started adding something I’m allergic to (I suspect either chicken broth or turmeric, by the reaction, but try getting a straight answer out of anyone about ingredients) and I had to stop eating buffet pastries a few years ago because of allergens, so I dread the day a conference I’m going to provides all meals and I still need per diem. So far I haven’t had to fight with our finance person about it but I know the day is coming. And she’s one of those people who doesn’t believe in food allergies.

    6. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Wow. I’d kick up a fuss and possibly quit over such a thing. Not because I’m determined to eat meat and have as big a carbon footprint as possible, but because I absolutely hate food policing. Refusing to reimburse perfectly normal meals because of their ingredients would be way too intrusive for me.

    7. designbot*

      I wouldn’t quit over it I don’t think, but I’d certainly be documenting when it was causing difficulties.

  215. CC*

    Alas, another day where the open thread goes up while I’m at work and unable to post.

    So has anybody tried the app Shapr? It’s a networking app. I wonder if you’ve met good folks through it, or if it’s filled with the pushy “elevator pitch” types that flock to “networking” groups on meetup and ask for favours right away. (On the plus side, I can choose to not connect with people who seem like they’re about that, since it only connects you if both parties say they’re interested in meeting.)

  216. nep*

    Stories about being shocked you got an offer, because a) you were way overqualified, b) you were way under-qualified, or c) you met only a few of the required or desired skills ?

    1. wingmaster*

      One offer that I was shocked to get was because the interview only lasted five minutes…because I am always told the shorter the interview, the less likely the employer will call back.

    2. Effie, who gets to be herself*

      I was shocked to be offered my first non-retail job, because during the interview process one of the interviewers (the company VP) told me straight out, “I don’t believe you can do this job.”

      P.S. she was very said when I resigned a year later and offered me incentives to stay

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Ha! I still can’t believe it myself. I got offered a job that I did not think I would get an offer on. So I figured I would push that envelope. I asked for 25% more than they stated on the basis of A, B and C. They hired me and they gave me that additional 25%. Meanwhile my other job was kind of low paying. I asked for and got my pay quadrupled. It was my first job in this particular arena. This stuff never happens to me. I think it was a mix of the right people and the right match and luck. In both cases people were paying attention to what I said and did. That made a huge difference. Look to see if the interviewers are paying attention to you and the unique-to- you things that you say.

  217. Not So NewReader*

    This is late but I am hoping someone will see it.

    For work purposes a friend put a bunch of pictures on Flicker. Now she needs to change over the account to another person.
    Flicker is not letting her do this. This is not something that can easily be redone in a brand new account by another person, as it will be hours and hours of work perhaps days.

    Has anyone successfully dealt with something like this?

  218. Lindsay Gee*

    I’m totally failing at the moment, but I’m trying to find past articles from this site about how to go about reaching out to a contact/former manager when you know they’re hiring and you want to apply.
    context: I am job hunting and applied for a research position. Turns out, the person hiring is actually an investigator on the project I’m currently working on. So I want to email her directly because we know each other and she’s aware of my quality of work etc.
    Anyone have a better memory than I for which letters to refer to?

  219. Cassie the First*

    My boss asked me to do some low-level/initial analysis on the salary rates of our staff, compared to people of the same titles in other depts. Our salaries tend to be on the low side (even though we’re in STEM), and the people in non-STEM depts have higher rates.

    I’m thinking of showing the minimum pay, maximum pay, mean and median. Is there anything else I should show? Percentiles? Quartiles? Any statistical formulas in Excel that I should use?

    1. Student*

      Usually salary band range(s) and each person’s salary range penetration. If you have salary bands.

      You might want the standard deviation of the pay rate in each department, by title, if these are large groups of people (~10ish or more).

  220. Reva*

    I work as a per-diem employee. My employer is not paying me for some services rendered. Do they have to pay me for work I actually did?

    1. TL -*

      Companies have to pay for all work done, for pretty much all employees. I would talk to a lawyer, but if you did work they need to pay you for it.

  221. The Other CC*

    (Whoops, realized I accidentally copied my name here from another poster. Hereafter, call me The Other CC. Or “The One Drowning in Old Teapots”)

    I have an Update to my question from a few weeks ago on how to get my boss to let go of abandoned customer work that’s been lingering for 20+ years. Many of you replied with awesome suggestions, for which I thank you very much! (It turns out we might be having a moving sale and will have a chance to eliminate a lot of the clutter that way. )

    The other day, a customer came in and asked, somewhat sheepishly, “How long do you keep old work around? I brought my grandmother’s teapot in to have the paint touched up….ten years ago? And I never came back to get it.” My boss said “We *never* throw anything out. CC, could you go in the back and look?”

    Reader – I found her grandmother’s teapot! It was in a bin with a bunch of other abandoned work and actually been brought in 15 years ago, not 10. The paint touch-up had never actually been done. BUT! I felt very happy that I was able to reunite a customer with a sentimental piece. And annoyed that my boss was kind of right to never throw anything away.

    1. CC*

      Ha, I never thought somebody would copy the name. I post here so rarely (no internet at work; by the time I can read things, the discussion is basically over) that you can use the name.

      And argh, the packrat being proved right. “It might be useful some day” in a business context.

  222. Elisabeth*

    Job Hunt updates:

    I had an interview today around lunch time and was an utter GD mess. Insert a professional version of the frowning emoji hair. I’m incredibly sick with a sinus infection. I forgot my stockings, I forgot my open toe pumps and wore my heeled oxfords. I recently lost 30 lbs and haven’t both a new tailored suit. And do to dragging myself out of bed for my demanding job this morning, I forgot all about concealer and eye make up. This one crept up on me. They reached out to me and requested an interview two days later.

    It IS in the sector I wanted. The salary suggested by the job listing is … uh … ideal. But it would be another jump in title/expectation for me during one of the work quarters that has bludgeoned me with self-doubt. It’s also an equity-backed “start-up” that’s only 2 years old. And I’m pretty sure they need someone to come in and clean-up a mess that start-ups tend to develop from not ironing out their hiring process yet. I’m really aiming for something a little more sustainable while I get some health concerns under control. But at the same time, if the salary is what was suggested, and the benefits are good — if I succeeded at the job (which sounds like it IS right in my wheelhouse) it could be an incredibly boon to my career.

    I don’t even know what I’m asking. I’m just processing things and SUPER MAD at myself for not being more prepared today. Stupid cold medication

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Am reading this and saying to myself, this could happen to ME. I’m sorry.
      Try to remember that the little things that went wrong were just that- Little Things. For example if they don’t hire you because you weren’t wearing concealer you probably don’t want to work there anyway.
      Next, try to think of life as having a rhythm to it, there are reasons for things even if we don’t see the reason. I have found this comforting sometimes. If you found out that this was a Very Toxic Place, wouldn’t that ease some of this tension/upset right now?
      Breathe.
      Get some serious rest and plenty of water this weekend. Vow to run at life Monday with a clearer head. My mother had an annoying but true expression, “Things look differently once we get a little rest.”
      I hope the outcome from this interview is the best answer for you and your life. Whatever that may mean.

    2. foolofgrace*

      1) Congrats on the weight loss! 2) Don’t be so hard on yourself. Stuff happens and this might be a good lesson for preparing earlier (shoes, concealer, etc.)

      1. Elisabeth*

        Re-reading this, I think I had already taken my NyQuil WHOOPS. But yes, it was just frustrating because it COULD be a great opportunity.

  223. wingmaster*

    Anyone working in the apparel industry? I work in fabric sourcing for new developments and styles. Would love to see if anyone else is in the same field as me!

    1. Roberta Plant*

      No, but I love clothes, I sewed for decades/before kids and have always wished that I bucked the pressure to “STEM” as a young person and instead attended FIT or similar. I would love to hear about your work.

      1. wingmaster*

        I totally understand. I have two parents who are engineers. At first, they wanted to see me in a “STEM” field, but that never happened…lol

        I attached a link to my personal portfolio, if you want to check it out! My current job right now is in the menswear lifestyle and golf market. So fabric really does drive the brand, and I am happy to be the one to “start” the development. I also work on new trim development (heat transfer labels, size labels, etc)

    2. The Other CC*

      Not exactly, but I have spent my entire career making costumes for theatre/dance/opera companies. Obviously very different needs for apparel vs. bespoke costumes that have to be worn onstage and beat up during the run of a show, but I find apparel very interesting. I’m actually looking to get out of my current niche because of the budget cuts, culture issues, and the general instability/low pay that are endemic to the arts. What’s it like working in apparel? Any place where a costume technician interested in project management could break in and have a fulfilling career? I’ve always had this image that only stylish, cool people get hired to work in that field, which is probably more influenced by repeat viewings of The Devil Wears Prada than reality!

      Love your website. I never would have thought of the golf industry as a separate niche in apparel. Very cool.

      1. wingmaster*

        That’s pretty cool! What inspired me to go into apparel design is costume. Star Wars is my all-time favorite, and I loved seeing how the costumes for the Jedi and Padme came to life. But when I took a few costuming classes in college, I figured my skills are better off in apparel. Plus I hear some actors/actresses are hard to deal with….

        It depends what niche in apparel you are interested. I have worked in different markets from swimwear to menswear. But overall, it’s always fast paced, always working seasons ahead (for me 3-4 seasons) with several deliveries in a year. You get to work with different departments. For me, I work a lot with design, product development, technical design, and the higher up execs. I enjoy it a though!

        My boss and our coworker actually have a costuming background, and they’re here as a Materials Developer (Sourcing/Product Development) and Product Manager (Design) respectively. A lot of my professors have switched between costume and apparel. You mentioned project management, so I can see something like my coworker’s position. I assume you have the technical skills like sewing and construction too…

        Many thanks on checking out my portfolio. Golf is interesting…I’ve never played the sport. But I guess it’s a demanding market as it’s considered a “rich man’s sport”…

        I’d love to connect with you and help you with advice! My contact info is on the website and on this post.

  224. Chocolatl*

    I am friends with “Sam” who I have known for over 7 years. We are around the same age and it has been 12+ years since graduation. Due to some long-term health problems, Sam was working part time for a number of years which provided a low, but stable income. For various reasons, Sam left this job and has been doing low paid short-term contract work on and off for the last few years. Sam wants a better paid, more fulfilling job, has been looking for something more permanent but has struggled with this so far.

    I have tried to be supportive, helping search for vacancies, proofreading applications, taking up my personal time. Sam has difficulties with timekeeping and organisation, so I have tried to help my friend to meet deadlines e.g. sending reminders, asking to send me applications for proofreading at least 2-3 days in advance. However without exception, I would receive applications/CVs for proofreading about 5-6 hours before the submission deadline, which would then cause much unnecessary stress because inevitably the application system would be slow/crash/uploading the CV didn’t work etc.

    I was happy when Sam received a job offer at a prestigious organisation (not a role that my friend had done before). This was still a contract (7 months) but at least more stable than previously. I thought the experience and opportunity to make contacts in this job would then lead to something better for. Sam enjoyed the new work however it soon became quite apparent that my friend was struggling with some elements of the job; the end-of-contract feedback, whilst reasonably favourable, also contained advice that this job role was not suitable because of inability to meet deadlines. Most of Sam’s work has not been office-based nor has the work required working to deadlines. The job was also out of town involving long commutes which probably exacerbated the problem.

    I was sympathetic and supported Sam, but having known my friend for a number of years, and having worked together on voluntary work, Sam needs a long time to process things, needs very clear instructions, makes mistakes and procrastinates a lot. I can understand why the feedback was received.

    Sam is now searching for another job and despite previous experiences, the cycle has repeated of me receiving applications/CVs for proofreading very late, and in one or two instances, I stayed up late to proofread, sent it back to my friend in good time but then my friend missed the submission deadline. Sam has quite a fatalistic attitude, “well, I guess this job wasn’t to be”. My friend also needs to realise that the perfect job doesn’t exist and needs to improve on certain elements e.g. accuracy, timekeeping but discussions about this end often lead to Sam getting upset.

    I guess my question is, how do I best help Sam going forwards without it feeling like an emotional drain on me? I have always offered to proofread (my friend struggles with spelling and brevity) as I believe it will get Sam through the first hurdle. I have also suggested that my friend use networking/personal contacts to get a job as this would be much more suited to my friend’s style. However Sam never quite gets round to it… then the deadline passes, and the cycle repeats. I am getting increasingly frustrated but don’t know what to do.

    Other friends and colleagues who know I am supporting Sam are telling me to stop and leave my friend to sort their own life out. However, my friend has no savings and family provide little/negative support. I fear that withdrawing my help will very quickly lead to a downward spiral.

    1. neverjaunty*

      He seems to be doing just fine in sabotaging himself WITH your help – and isn’t it interesting that he’s now missing deadlines even when you help him?

      Have you considered that your help is making him more passive and dependent, not less?

      Listen to your friends and family. Step back. You can’t fix him, and more importantly, you can’t lean on him for the emotional reward of feeling like you are a Good Person Who Will Rescue Him.

      1. Chocolatl*

        I’ve done plenty of application help / proofreading for friends and family which has almost always been a one/few-time thing, and helped them out. They’ve also helped me with stuff so it’s not just been one-way.

        I guess I never thought that this particular one would be a longer term, many-time thing and that my friend would need this amount of support.

        I don’t believe it is making Sam more dependent. I guess in similar situations with others, family has stepped in. However, in this case that is not going to happen. I guess I don’t like seeing my friend in such a precarious financial and emotional situation.

        Also, I think if I stepped away it would negatively impact our friendship. It hasn’t always been like this – and I don’t want to be ‘that friend’ who leaves when someone needs help.

        1. Rainy*

          Sometimes, especially if someone tells you that “all their friends have left when they needed help” you need to consider that leaving was the right thing to do, because they’re going to sink regardless and all you’re doing is delaying the inevitable and letting them take up your time and energy.

        2. Working Hypothesis*

          You wouldn’t be leaving when someone needs help. You’d be setting boundaries about what kind and degree of help you are prepared to offer, which everyone has a right and a responsibility to do.

          You’ve already said that you once tried to say, “please send me applications for proofreading at least 2-3 days in advance,” and the request was ignored. The next step is, “Unless you give me at least 48 hours between sending me an application and the submission deadline for that application, I will be unable to proofread it.” Say it and STICK to it!! Anything that’s sent to you with a desperate “just this once” needs to be returned with, “Gee, I’m sorry, but I just can’t help you on those terms. I told you what I was able to do already.”

          Similarly, anything you’ve offered to do which is accepted but then sabotaged — for example, you are requested to remind Sam of things which need to be done by a certain date, but when you do remind them, the things don’t get done by that date anyhow — is an offer which should be withdrawn. “You said you wanted me to remind you of these things, but it’s clear that my doing so isn’t helping you any. When I remind you, nothing changes. So I’m going to stop being your reminder system, because there’s no purporse to using my energy on something which doesn’t do you any good.”

          Don’t refuse outright to help Sam at all, if you really want to help them. But insist on a quid pro quo: if they want a particular form or type of help from you, it is their responsibility to pull their own weight with respect to that particular form of help!! If they won’t do that, you don’t do that type of help until they will.

          After that, it is their business. They might find your help more expensive in effort than they want to pay, and not ask you anymore. This is a win! It means you’re no longer stressing over their job hunt, and they have made up their own mind what they want and arranged for it to be so. Or they might find your help useful enough to be worth getting off their tail and making changes for. This is also a win! It suggests that maybe they can *also* meet deadlines for a job, if they can meet them for you.

          Or they may throw a tantrum and yell at you and tell you what a terrible person you are for leaving them when they NEEEEEEEEED you, and how COULD you DO this to them?!?

          This won’t be pleasant. But it should still be recognized, at least, as useful. It tells you a good deal about what type of person your friend Sam is, and from there, you can decide how close a friend you really want to be to someone like that.

          1. Chocolatl*

            Thanks for the replies. I have been reluctant to change anything due to Sam’s ongoing physical and mental health problems and the fact that I know that my friend has no financial cushion – I think this, in part, has something to do with the lack of deadline-meeting and motivation.
            But I guess I need to set better boundaries to protect myself.

      2. Kathenus*

        I agree with neverjaunty. You mention one of the work concerns that his last employer had was inability to meet deadlines. Unless he can learn to motivate himself to do this he’s not going to succeed in many jobs. By you always making sure he meets deadlines during his job search he has no incentive to change his behavior and start doing this himself. Unless you or someone else take this same role with his actual work tasks, he’ll fail again in the future even if he gets a job. I’m not saying cut him off 100% but if you tell him you need material to review at least two days in advance, if he gives it to you 6 hours before say sorry I don’t have time for this now. Tough love will help him develop the skills he needs instead of relying on you or others for keeping him on task.

  225. The Doctor*

    After eight years in middle management, I would like to move up to the next level. Unfortunately, my higher ups have a habit of transferring my best subordinates out of my unit, and then saying that I can’t be promoted because there is nobody in my unit who can effectively take over for me.

    I’ve tried training multiple team members to be qualified to replace me, but that backfired when Grand-Boss took ALL of them away from me and — you guessed it — then denied me a promotion because nobody was qualified to take over the team. How am I supposed to get a promotion when anyone who might qualify to replace me is moved out?

    1. Kathenus*

      If you have the relationship with your boss to do this, ask for a meeting about your professional development and straightforward ask what you need to do to be promoted. If you feel you can say this, mention that you feel like you are being punished for good performance by being denied opportunities for advancement. If advancement is important to you, and you inform her of this in a dispassionate and professional way, hopefully they will get the message that not giving you a path to advancement might result in your looking for it elsewhere – without you having to say this outright. So frustrating, I wish you the best of luck.

  226. De Minimis*

    Late to the party, but I wanted to report some fairly good news. I had a job interview yesterday that went well, and I may be hearing something on Monday.

    It wasn’t my first choice out of the things I’ve been applying to [it’s for a company that contracts to the government, though I’d be a regular full time employee of that company, not a contractor in the tax/legal sense] and I might be job searching again in a couple of years,. But it would be full time employment and would be better for me professionally than my current job, which cut my hours/pay but still expects me to do everything I did when I was full time, and isn’t really helping me professionally anymore [it’s turned into mostly admin/office tasks with some low level accounting work that is more like an accounting clerk.]

    At least it will only involve a short distance relocation instead of a major cross country one. But that also means we’ll still be stuck in a high cost of living area where it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to afford a home. I could try again in a couple of years, but at that point I’ll be close to 50 and I think it’ll be even tougher to find a new job than it’s been this time [which has been much harder than I thought it would be.]

    I wish one of the many other jobs I’d applied to and interviewed for had worked out instead, but this is better than nothing, and my time is running out as far as being able to survive on my current part time salary without having to burn through savings just to make ends meet.

    I shouldn’t count my chickens yet either, but it’s sad that I also won’t be horribly crushed if it falls through.

  227. Is This The Right Job For Me????*

    I recently received a new promotion and job four months ago. I am having mixed feelings about things – my boss, some of the staff I work with. Just wondering if I am expecting too much. Boss is new to his role and some times seems inconsistent with expectations or what he wants. When I tag up with him, it’s rushed. Others often interrupt or he’s easy distracted (email, texting). Then there’s one of two other assistants. This one is supposed to be my alternate when out. From day one, she over stepped and it was a battle for her to let go of tasks. No matter how nicely I asked, she took offense. She has her own group, but doesn’t do much for them. They go to the other assistant for help. But she has no problem trying to do my job.

    There’s other issues that I am not going into, but just feeling disengaged. I don’t regret leaving my previous employer. Just having serious reservations about this one. Has anyone had this happen when they go into a new job? If so, what did you do?

  228. Lorde*

    Boss likes to tell me how to write an email or how to respond to clients. I bring in large revenue for our operations and have started resenting being told how to do my job. She has mentioned that my emails don’t sound “excited” enough or I havent responded quickly enough. Funny thing is, these accounts she complains about me not communicating properly are small $ and the large accounts I handle well and close barely register. Have been in the role for close to 18 months and the back seat email driving me nuts. I was under the impression this was a strategy focused job, but all it is sales. I know business development and sales are tied together but I was also taught that they are NOT the same thing. Sales is pipeline building and BD is strategy positioning for ultimate growth for revenue and other aspects of the company, not bread and butter. Am I wrong? Thank you for letting me vent. :)

  229. beaglesnpyjamas*

    There’s this really screwed up idea that people have tried to promulgate, that people with PhDs are in Academe or bust, or Industry or bust, but neither is true. Research scientists end up in a ton of different industries.

    1. beaglesnpyjamas*

      Not universally true. Let’s face it, if you get a graduate degree, you’re at an economic disadvantage already. You should have gotten a bachelors engineering degree and entered into industry if money was the only thing you were interested in.

  230. Enough*

    I think you kind of answered your own question. She wants the little accounts to become big accounts.

    1. Lorde*

      What if there is no evidence that client can surpass current account value? At this point, client has explicitly expressed their $ limit and within the year, there is no room to grow – it’s not that myself and the team are ignoring the smaller accounts, it’s just that with limited capacity (we are only 2 ppl in the team), we are shocked and demoralised when what is magnified is a small account that isn’t going off the rails, but just isn’t handled exactly how she wants it to be and there is very little room for understanding that the bigger accounts demand our time at that moment. I understand that part of it is maintaining relationships because you never know when a small company may become flush. I suppose a part of it is difference in working style. Didn’t think I would get any feedback so thank you for your response!

      1. A username for this site*

        Reading between the lines, she wants you to high-pressure those small accounts into becoming larger accounts. But by not respecting their boundaries, you will alienate them and cause them to go elsewhere, which she will blame you for.

        Start looking for another job.

  231. PinkPepperRocks*

    I’m feeling isolated at my new job (6 or so months in) and am not sure what to do. I’m in admin for a science program – I know zero about science and because my role is the only non-lab role I sit away from everyone else in a general admin office at the university. My office is shared with an admin team that all work on another program so although we chit chat etc. my work is very different from theirs. I meet lab staff from my program in passing but I don’t get invited to their team meetings (as they’re science focussed) and I am not included in team meetings for the group I sit with because I don’t work on their program either (although they ask me to cover their phones while they’re all in their meetings).

    I don’t want to sound like a baby (I’m mid-career late 30s!) and I understand why my attendance isn’t appropriate in either setting really but this doesn’t stop me feeling excluded and on the outs all the time. I work fine on my own initiative and enjoy the solitude from that perspective, but I feel totally left out of everything. I haven’t raised it with my Manager yet as I can’t think of a solution to it myself, but do you guys have any tips for coping with it or suggestions as to how it might be made a little better?

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