open thread – July 27-28, 2018

by Alison Green on July 27, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. WellRed*

    Employment news headlines of the week
    “WeWork will no longer reimburse for meals that contain meat” or
    “California DMV employee who napped at work every day for three hours cost taxpayers $40K”

    Discuss.

      3. Triple Anon*

        That’s such a terrible policy. I’m a long-time vegetarian and I understand the reasons people don’t eat meat, but there are also lots of good reasons that people choose otherwise. There are also medical conditions that make it difficult or impossible to be vegetarian.

        Boundaries, please, companies! Stay out of people’s outside of work lives – beliefs, dietary choices, all of that. As long as people are doing their jobs, that’s none of your business.

        1. Boop*

          Not to mention there may not be many options for vegetarian meals when traveling – most of the time you’re eating fast food or whatever you can find in an unfamiliar venue.

          Also – vegetarians have to be very careful about making sure they get enough protein and other nutrition that they do not get from meat. If an employee isn’t knowledgeable about what constitutes a well-rounded vegetarian diet their health may be impacted. It’s not likely to be a problem on a short business trip, but one never knows!

          1. Triple Anon*

            Right. To be fair, it’s not that hard to get good nutrition without eating meat, and a lot of omnivores also miss out on key nutrients. In theory, we all eat a variety of foods, but not eating enough fruits and vegetables is a common choice (or result of people’s circumstances) in the US, and the results are not healthy. However, if you force any kind of restrictive diet on people, the results won’t be good. If people don’t want to be vegetarian, they won’t do their research on it, and they won’t be interested in all the things that tend to be acquired tastes, like tofu.

          2. Notveggie*

            Almost every ethnic food has vegitarian options including good old American pizza.
            It is not that difficult to get nutritious meals without meat just as meals with meat are not always nutritious.

            1. Bacon Pancakes*

              LOL I would just expense the cheese/veggie pizza and then pay cash on the side for some pepperoni! TAKE THAT CORPORATE SWINE!

            2. Sapphire*

              Japanese food has fish stock in most all of their dishes. It’s hard to eat vegan or true vegetarian there unless you seek it out.

          3. Tallulah in the Sky*

            First, I agree that it’s a terrible policy, employers should stay of out their employee’s peronal lives and lifestyle choices. This should be a simple rule.

            But I’m also tired of people spreading stereotypes and misinformation, so I’d like to quicly debunk some things that were said. Like Triple Anon said, it’s 1. not that hard to find nutritious vegetarian meals (indian and italian are always a win) and 2. just because you eat meat doesn’t mean you don’t have nutrient deficiencies.

            Proteins : there are animal proteins and plant-based proteins, and both are good for us, our bodies doesn’t care what kind you give them. Some plant-based proteins are : lentils, chickpeas and most variety of beans, corn, grean peas, quinoa, edamame, soy milk, oats, nuts, broccoli, spinach, asparagus, artichokes, potatoes, sweet potatoes, etc. There’s lots of choice and that’s why protein deficiency is super rare outside of developing countries.

            Missing nutrients : the most common example is B12, which is naturally found only in meat products. So yes, vegetarians should take B12 supplements. But so should many people who do eat meat. Studies have found that many more people were B12 deficient for an array of reasons. Also, there’s a thousand ways to follow a particular diet, and there are multiple ways to be unhealthy on any diet. Yes, vegetarians should watch their vitamin and nutrient intake, but so should everybody, no diet assures this a 100%.

            Lastly : eating a “less optimal” diet for a few days won’t alter your health (unless you have a medical condition). This is also why I won’t say anything on the people here who said “I’m eating junk food when out of state, no time to find better”. Nobody felt the need to say something to them. So please let’s continue and reserve the health scare for truly dangerous diets.

            1. Indie*

              I would happily eat Indian vegetarian cuisine for the rest of my life, if I lived in India. Where I live there is no preponderance of cool global options and the Indian restaurants you do come across cater to meat eaters. Italian is a no go thanks to gluten. Usually I’m at the mercy of Bleak Western chain restaurants and the veggie option is also the wheatiest option. The one gluten free option is a meat option; for example Starbucks chicken pesto is the only gluten free option they carry. Im going to prioritise my own food restrictions over someone elses.

            2. AnonAtAllTimes*

              Or just swing by a grocery store and pick up some low-fat cottage cheese or greek yogurt. Both are vegetarian, packed with protein, cheap, and easy to eat right out of the container you bought them in. I carry a plastic fork & spoon with me when I travel and do this regularly. You can pick up a piece of fruit or a small bag of baby carrots while you’re in the grocery store, too, to round out your meal. People who say they are forced to eat junk food while travelling are not using the heads. There are some pretty easy alternatives.

              1. Observer*

                For a LOT of people that’s not an option. Some can’t handle milk. For a lot of people, a yogurt (with or without a fruit) is not going to be a meal that’s going to let them work without being hungry. Etc. Yes, the yogurt may be healthier for most people who don’t have issues with this particular set of choices, but it doesn’t mean you won’t get hungry.

                It can also be surprisingly difficult to “just swing by” the grocery store and / or store food you bought in the morning in many situations when traveling for work.

                In short, just because it works for you does not mean it’s viable for everyone, or even most people.

      4. BeenThere*

        Interesting…. So I can’t eat tofu or any soy products due to a health issue. I guess I’d be SOL.

        1. pcake*

          Lots of vegetarians don’t eat soy products, and lots of vegetarian foods don’t include soy.

          Vegetarian food can include omelettes, anything eggs, baked potatoes, a glass of milk, anything with cheese but no meat. Quest bars and protein powder are vegetarian. Fries at most – but not all – restaurants are vegetarian. A bean and cheese burrito or guac and chips is vegetarian. Lots of dahls are vegetarian as are a variety of curries including veggie curry. Pasta with marinara, cheese or veggie pizza, mac and cheese and quesadillas are vegetarian as long as meat isn’t a topping/add-on. And that’s just for starters.

          1. Tallulah in the Sky*

            Thanks for mentioning this !

            @BeenThere : yep, this policy is really not well-thought. Everyone’s diet is a personnel choice, sometimes based on medical issues, so employers should stay out of it.

            1. Pommette!*

              I’m vegetarian, and have soy only a couple of times a year (commercial veggie burgers/tofu, if I’m a guest somewhere where that is what’s on the menu). It’s super easy to avoid soy if you regularly eat vegetarian and know what you are doing, and live in an area with a substantial vegetarian population.

              Of course, lots of people who will be asked to forgo meat under this policy are not going to be familiar with vegetarian foods, and/or are going to be travelling to areas where vegetarian offerings are few and far between.

              This policy is going to be hard on anyone with dietary restrictions. (“I already had to learn how to avoid gluten; now I have to learn how to avoid gluten and meat at the same time. Great.”). It’s going to be really (prohibitively?) hard on people who have multiple intolerance or allergies. Which is to say that I agree with you: this policy is super poorly thought out.

        2. CatMom*

          Nah, you’d be fine, assuming you don’t have other allergies – beans, legumes, peanut butter, eggs, dairy, and wheat-based fake meats (not everyone is into these, but they’re an option if available) are all common vegetarian forms of protein.

          1. Observer*

            That’s true IF you know what you are doing AND if you are in a situation with options.

    2. JokeyJules*

      my favorite part about the DMV employee was that they weren’t allowed to terminate her because they didn’t document it well enough.

      the WeWork thing, while I think it’s annoying, they’re allowed to do it. I wonder what the motives are. Whether it’s ethical or a way to save money…

      1. Mediamaven*

        Isn’t CA an at will state? I thought in most cases you could term for anything? So confusing.

          1. AnonAtAllTimes*

            DMV employees work for the state of California and are members of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU). Once employees pass their probationary periods (the length of which varies based on job title/classification), it is difficult to fire people. Although it can be done. It does, however, require a bit of work & documentation by the supervisor. It’s a myth that you can’t fire a state employee, but it IS a lot harder to fire a state employee than it is to fire a private-sector employee.

            My guess is that the sleeping DMV employee’s supervisor will now start documenting her if she continues this practice and make a second attempt to can her ass. And if the employee keeps sleeping on the job, I hope that attempt is successful.

        2. Jadelyn*

          We are an at-will state, but the DMV is a government thing, and I believe they’re unionized. At the very least, they’re government/gov’t-adjacent and as I understand it that always comes with that sort of rigid process/slow to react to poor performance thing.

          1. GrilledCheese*

            In my state if a state worker invokes a medical issue related to the problem a whole diff process comes into play, i.e. a guy caught passed out at his desk with empty vodka bottle in the wastebasket managed to preserve his benefits and come back to work after getting addition treatment. Once he brought up addiction all disciplinary action was halted.

        3. mark132*

          At-will doesn’t prevent you from being sued or having an EEOC complaint filed or other things. So even with at-will, I think most employers want to make sure they have a defendable process. (And as others have mentioned this is a government job so there will be different requirements/laws)

      2. Alli525*

        The WeWork thing is entirely an ethical move. They related meat consumption to climate change and the treatment of animals. And I think there’s a distinction to be made here – they won’t serve meat in their cafeterias or reimburse meat on a restaurant bill, but it still sounds like employees are welcome to bring their own meat into the workplace (they’re not going to throw your ham sandwich in the trash).

        1. Chief of Staff*

          That’s their party line, but they also flew hundreds of employees to the UK for a mandatory “team building” music festival and their CEO flys around on his private jet. These things make me doubt their actually all that concerned with climate change.

          1. Clare*

            I’m willing to bet that the one and only reason behind this new policy is $$$$$$$. They’ve realized that they can save a lot because meat typically costs more. All their statement shows is that they have a talented PR team who found a good excuse to give for this change in policy.

            It really annoys me that they are taking part in pushing this false binary that meat=bad and vegetable=good, because it’s not that simple. Buying vegetables from some giant corporate farm is much less ethical than buying meat from a local small farm that can certify its animals are humanely treated. The important thing is the quality of the food and where it is coming from, not meat vs. no meat. But quality food (especially quality meat) costs more, sooo…yeah.

            1. ElspethGC*

              My family gets all our meat from a local butcher who only buys from local and ethical farms, most farms in the UK keep their livestock outside for most of the year so they’re all grass-fed, and it’s been driven about 50 miles maximum to reach us. Compare that to the fruit and vegetables that fill supermarkets that have been flown thousands of miles to reach us, usually non-Fairtrade so have potentially been farmed using slave labour or with underpaid and overworked workers, and are then wrapped in several layers of plastic. Unless you’re sourcing all your vegetarian food ethically, it’s potentially worse for the environment and the workers than locally-sourced meat.

          2. Anonymosity*

            O_O

            Okay, climate change aside, I want a job where I get flown to the UK for a music festival. Sorry, Earth!

            1. BeenThere*

              Right?! Even though I can’t eat tofu and soy, I might figure out a way to make it work if they take me to the UK!

              1. Horsing Around*

                I have to ask, where do you live that coming to the UK is that big of a perk?

        2. Cynthia*

          Yep. I worked for a Seventh Day Adventist University Medical Center and they didn’t serve medicine anywhere on campus or in the hospital. They didn’t prevent us from bringing it and consuming it or being reimbursed for it while traveling, we couldn’t be reimbursed for it if we ordered it for official school functions like department meetings or committee meetings. Our students also couldn’t be reimbursed for ordering it for organization/club meetings.

          Didn’t bother me any.

          1. Database Developer Dude*

            Didn’t serve *medicine*????? Did you mean to say meat? I’ve never heard of SDA’s being vegetarians…

            1. Reba*

              The only SDA’s I know are vegetarians or pescatarians!

              Communities of SDAs with a high rate of practicing vegetarianism have been studied for longevity research.

            2. Agile Phalanges*

              (I grew up SDA.) It’s not a required tenet of the faith, but MOST (like 95%?) are vegetarian, because while Ellen G. White’s writings are NOT seen as equal to the Bible like some people claim when talking about how weird Adventists are :-) most DO believe she was inspired by God to write the things they did, and many choose to follow her health recommendations, or (just like the Bible, actually) the ones they can see themselves following, anyway. Most Adventists are vegetarian. However, EGW also recommends against spicy foods like mustard, or drinking (any beverage, even water!) during meals. Most people I know don’t actually follow those recommendations.

              Adventists are who brought you Corn Flakes (Kellogg was an Adventist) and those awesome fake meats in the frozen aisle (breakfast sausages, etc.). I grew up with an SDA and vegetarian mother and atheist and meat-eating father, so my mom almost always made two versions of the main entree (and side dishes were always vegetarian–no mashed potatoes made with chicken broth, for example), and I grew up eating all the “weird” fake meats you can only get from special Adventist stores. My mom lives in an Adventist college town, so I have her pick me up all the canned goods I need every so often, but can just get the frozen stuff at mainstream grocery stores now. But I’m vegetarian because it grosses me out to put meat in MY mouth, and won’t disparage anyone who does eat meat (and cook it for my meat-eating friends and relatives, etc.), and grew up with the option, so switching to only fake stuff instead of some real, some fake, was super easy for me. It’s a much bigger commitment for people who go vegetarian (or vegan) for ethical reasons even though they actually LIKE meat.

          2. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

            I can’t tell you how amused I am by the notion of a University Medical Center not serving medicine. Having had several bad reactions to medications in the past, maybe this is where I need to go!

          3. Engineer Girl*

            SDA won’t serve meat, not medicine.

            They do it because it is part of their core belief system so there is no hypocrisy there.

            Conversely, We Work is claiming carbon footprint while wasting thousands on travel. They are hypocrites.

        3. Engineer Girl*

          It’s not entirely ethical because it negatively effects some of its enployees. It’s also hypocritical. If they were truly concerned about the environment then they wouldn’t send their employees on travel at all. They would use virtual meetings etc.

          It’s also stupid. The whole point is to reduce the carbon footprint. So you know what you do when you want to do that? You make your requirement “we will make our carbon footprint x% less than last year.” Then you find many ways to get to that goal (not one).
          They could:
          – do less travel
          – buy employees mass transit passes
          – change thermostat settings
          – donate to organizations that help reduce footprint

          What We Work has done is confused the requirement (carbon footprint) with the implementation (meat eating). In engineering we call that a bad requirement. Doubly so since it could run afoul of ADA and other laws.

          Stupid stupid stupid

          1. pcake*

            From https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/04/11/301794415/gassy-cows-are-warming-the-planet-and-theyre-here-to-stay

            “In 2011, methane from livestock accounted for 39 percent of all the greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture, according to a report that United Nation’s Food and Agriculture Organization released Friday. That’s more than synthetic fertilizer or deforestation. Methane from livestock rose 11 percent between 2001 and 2011.

            The bulk of the emissions — 55 percent — came from beef cattle. Dairy cows, buffalo, sheep and goats accounted for the rest.”

            1. Horsing Around*

              This seems very much to be confusing carbon emissions with increasing atmospheric carbon. Not really the same thing. Every gram of carbon that comes out of a cow was carbon that started in the atmosphere. Unlike with deforestation and fossil fuel use cows have a net change to atmospheric carbon of precisely 0.
              The only way farming contributes is in changing of land use and their fuel consumption, the cows can go on farting all they want and make no difference whatsoever.

          2. neverjaunty*

            You know what else they could do? Ensure that all company meals are purchased from companies that ethically source their food and treat their workers decently.

            But I guess it’s not as hip to worry about the farm workers who pick and prepare the vegetables. Screw them, protecting cows is where it’s at!

            1. Traffic_Spiral*

              Yes, but that would cost the COMPANY money. This way only the employees suffer.

              1. Pommette!*

                Ding! Ding! Ding!

                This right here. They could have chosen to spend time and money making sure that all on-campus food is meatless, healthy, and ethically sourced + prepared. They didn’t.

    3. TeacherNerd*

      I’d rather bastardize the headlines: The DMV employee was a former WeWork employee whose lack of meat consumption is still causing exhaustion years later.

        1. smol cinnamon roll*

          Click here to find out how to restore your physical energy with just one simple step.

          The results will shock you!

    4. Persimmons*

      I’m closely following the “law to prevent tech companies from offering free lunch” thing.

      1. neverjaunty*

        I doubt that’s going anywhere. Even if the law made sense, the tech companies pretty much own the SF city government at this point.

        1. CAA*

          Mountain View already has this law. I don’t think it’s going to be that hard for SF to pass a similar ordinance under the current city council. There’s lots of backlash against tech.

        1. samiratou*

          Yes. SF wants to ban companies from offering lunch on site, to encourage people to go out and spend money in the city, instead.

          1. Chriama*

            Because the companies are somehow generating food out of thin air and not paying a caterer or contractor?

            1. CAA*

              This only affects cafeterias that are free to employees or heavily subsidized. The companies are paying contractors much, much less than their employees would spend in the neighborhood if they didn’t have free lunches on site.

              1. Lumen*

                It’s also related to the retail foot traffic generated when employees leave the work campus to get food.

                I do get some of the rationale: a lot of these companies get massive tax incentives, so they ‘give back’ less to the communities they occupy, and the 100% food subsidies given to employees (presumably) prevents ‘giving back’ via increased revenue for adjacent businesses in the area, which causes hiccups in the economy boost the cities were expecting when these companies landed there.

                But honestly, I think this would be “punishing” workers more than companies. Maybe these cities should just… make silicon valley tech companies pay their fair share of taxes?

                2. Clare*

                  I was also under the impression that many of the tech companies have massive campuses that are not exactly in the city center itself (hence the need to have private buses for their employees to get to work), so are there even many other food options nearby them that are accessible?

              3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

                I think it’s also a bit about sales tax. If the food is free there’s no sales tax generated. I don’t think they’d care as much if the company offered a cafeteria on site for employees to PAY for lunch, because then there would be sales tax revenue for the city.

                1. LJay*

                  But presumably the employer is purchasing the food from somewhere.

                  If they are buying it already prepared they’re paying sales tax on it then.

                  If they’re buying raw ingredients which may not be taxable, they’re paying someone to prepare the food, which increases the amount of income tax paid.

                  A rule requiring them to source the food locally would make more sense and seem less like punishing the employees.

                2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

                  There’s no “reply” under LJay so I think there’s a limit on nested comments…
                  Income tax (employees paid to prepare the food) doesn’t go to local communities — it goes to the state and federal government. These are municipal laws meant to benefit the local community. Cities benefit most from sales tax. In Mountain View, which already has such a law in place, employers are allowed to pay for worker meals off-campus — so it’s not that employees can’t have a lunch at the expense of the company — just not have a free cafeteria.

              4. Zennish*

                This makes exactly as much sense as if they were forcing employees to park at public parking meters rather than use the company parking lot. Why are contracted caterers less worthy of support than (probably national chain) restaurants?

          2. Ursula*

            My local council tried to ban people from giving away food. There was some theorising that this was directly linked to the fact the local university had a hare krishna who turned up every lunch time and dished out free food to the students who wanted it so the students (of which I was one) didn’t buy food from the (many this was central London) restaurants and cafes around the University. There was also a chain cafe nearby that gave away its unsold food to the homeless after they were closed for the day and there may have been an element of social cleansing involved. It never managed it (under the proposed law it was illegal to buy a homeless person a cup of tea) because there was an outcry.

            1. Mike C.*

              These measures are done to basically make life worse for the homeless or chase them out of certain areas.

          3. Triple Anon*

            Wow. So, I see where that comes from. There is a perception that “the techies” are hurting local businesses with their onsite lunches. There’s a lot of outrage about “the techies,” much of it justified, but often fueled by such heated emotions that logic does not always win. In other words, I get where people are coming from, but WTF?

            People who work at tech companies tend to make good salaries. There’s a lot of potential for local businesses to benefit from that. Working with them instead of against them would be a good way to go.

        2. JustaTech*

          Mountain View is still mad about the Google cafeteria, so they’re making places like Facebook’s new buildings either charge for food or make employees go out to eat.

          Which I expect will last exactly as long as it takes for the lunch traffic to become horrifying. (Amazon doesn’t have cafes, so the entire neighborhood where their office is becomes overrun at lunch and none of the other people who work there can get anything to eat. Not that I’m bitter, honest.)

      3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        What’s the argument in favor of this law? That free lunches harms local restaurants?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yes, they assume that people would go to restaurant in droves, I guess.
          It kind of amuses me, I guess they have not heard of the idea of brown bagging? I bet they won’t get that much more business as people will bring their own or buy it somewhere else. I can almost picture someone passing around a list of businesses that were most vocal in favor of this law so people will know where to avoid.

          It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

          1. Falcon*

            I wouldn’t necessarily assume that – I think at least 20-30% of my office goes out for lunch every day, and most of us go out at least once a week. Even considering that our building has a deli, that’s a lot of business for the restaurants around our office park. Plus, if you’re going out for lunch, maybe you get gas, or stop for some other errand, so it’s not just restaurants who benefit.

            1. YuliaC*

              Yep. I’m in NY in academia, and most people (about 95%) go and buy their lunches out every day. I am seen as a bit of a freak for always eating my homemade lunch.

          3. Susana*

            The reason companies (like Bloomberg – at least last time I was at their DC bureau) provide free food on site is that they want their employees working behind the computer pretty much nonstop. Not so much a perk as a way to make sure you aren’t distracted by things like daylight.

            1. you don't know me*

              This. My old job installed free fancy coffee machines on each floor because they figured each time a person stepped out to get coffee they were gone 20 minutes. Give them “free” coffee and get an extra 15 minutes of work however many times a day.

              1. Lumen*

                And this is why my office has a fridge full of free sodas and a large table piled with snacks every day, too.

          4. zora*

            Those tech employees don’t have time to make lunches, they are working 12 hour days and have insane commutes. Plus, they have a fair amount of disposable income with their salaries. I think most of them would eat out. I work in a building with a lot of smaller tech companies and 80-90% of people are buying lunches out every day.

            2. sleepwakehopeandthen*

              Eh, I mean I think you have time to make lunch if you are working a 12 hour day with a long commute if making lunch is one of your defaults. My husband makes his lunch every day even during tax season when he is working 16+ hour days–it saves him time because then he already has his lunch with him compared to going out and getting food at lunch time (obviously, he doesn’t have the free lunch provided option). Also, it doesn’t really take all that much time to make a sandwich and throw some fruit and string cheese in a bag.
              (But we are both cheap and saving up for a California house)

            3. Observer*

              That’s a poor assumption. They may not start brown bagging per se, but they are also not necessarily going to go out for lunch. They’ll find alternatives that work for them – and might lose the area even more money, it’s likely to involve mail order.

          5. Persimmons*

            That’s my take. I buy lunch at work because my company subsidizes the healthy line and the salad bar as part of the “wellness initiative” so the cost is competitive with grocery prices. If that went away, I’d just pack my own.

          6. Kat in VA*

            Egads, one of the questions I ask at large companies in large industrial complexes is if there’s a cafeteria onsite or if Foodsby or some other food delivery service is available. I am *highly* motivated by food (which they find amusing) and do not like to leave the office for lunch. Heck, I don’t even like taking an actual lunch break, to be honest. Being forced to go out and buy lunch or have the discipline to brown bag it? Nope.

          7. sleepwakehopeandthen*

            I have found all the articles I’ve read on this topic hilarious exactly because they all pass it off as if there are only two options for food: eat the cafeteria food or go out for lunch.

        2. SWOinRecovery*

          Taxes. The idea is that there is a tipping point where giveaways to employees = income that should be taxed. If your employees are eating 2+ meals a day, 5 days a week, some might consider that a substitution for taxable income. Whereas once a week meals or something else would be de minimus.

          2. Faith*

            Well, the new tax reform has significantly reduced the deductibility of meals provided by the employer t the employees. This includes subsidized cafeteria lunches. So, presumably, the government is already getting taxes on the cost of these meals. While the employees are not getting taxed on income, the companies are not getting a deduction on cost.

          3. Sam.*

            It’s an argument I kind of buy. I mean, if I had percentage of my meals per week covered and all of the sudden I had to start paying for them all myself, I’d want some sort of compensation to make up for that.

            1. Lumen*

              Same with the tax ‘reform’ changes to deductions for paid parking and transit. If my ability to park at my office downtown is taken away because it’s no longer deductible for my company, then that is about $2400/year (net) I’d like to see added to my paycheck, because that will be the increased cost for me.

          4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

            Income tax though goes primarily to the federal and state governments. Very little income tax goes to cities. Cities in California more than any other state, benefit from sales tax.

            California has the highest sales tax rates in the nation. The minimum state sales tax in CA is 7.25% and of that 1.25% is mandated to go to cities. Then counties and cities are allowed to add even higher sales taxes on top of that — for instance, San Francisco county adds a bit and the city of San Francisco adds a bit more to make the total sales tax rate for zip code 94105 8.5%. If an employee is eating a free meal, there’s no “sale” so no tax generated, and if they’re getting 2+ meals a day free, they aren’t as likely to spend a lot of money on groceries etc. to generate sales taxes there either. The city probably doesn’t care WHERE that money comes from — a company cafeteria, the neighborhood grocery store, a neighborhood restaurant — they just want the sales within the city to generate money.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      I’d be really pissed if my company decided to quit reimbursing meat-containing meals. I think WeWork should have the right to do it, but I think they should also suffer the consequences, which I hope includes a lot of good employees finding somewhere else to be.

      I’m senior enough that I can’t find another job on a moment’s notice like I could earlier in my career, but I think if my agency were to do this, I wouldn’t hesitate to bring it up when asked to stay late or do lunch meetings. “Since the company won’t be providing a meal, I’m going to have to leave at 7.” “Oh, you say we provide meals? Not ones that work with my very commonplace diet, so no, we don’t.”

      1. veggie*

        I’m a vegetarian who would love to work at WeWork because it makes work food that much easier.

        1. Andy*

          yes, I imagine that would be convenient for vegetarians. For the omnivorous among us it would be substantially less so.

          1. Sheesh*

            Is it really that outrageous to have to “suffer” through one meat-free meal which you paid zero dollars for? It’s really a tired idea that vegetarian food can’t be delicious, filling or energizing. Y’all realize that basically everything at Thanksgiving except the turkey and stuffing is generally vegetarian right?

            1. Perse's Mom*

              You realize sometimes people have dietary issues and it’s not just about whether it’s vegetarian or not, right? That people have food allergies or sensitivities, or simply do not like certain foods that might limit what they can eat?

              1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                Yes, of course, not everyone can have sandwiches (or, in this case, falafel or whatever). And one hopes that this workplace will accommodate those with a genuine need to eat meat.

                But, sheesh. There are literally millions of things people can eat without eating meat. This is not a major hardship.

                (That being said, I think it’s overstepping. I applaud the company living its values by not catering with meat, but IMO they should reimburse employees for whatever meals they choose.)

                1. Dragoning*

                  I think most vegetarians can chime in with how hard it is to find no-meat options in restaurants. This substantially limits options, and if the one or two things on the menu that are vegetarian are things you can’t eat…then what?

                2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                  I was a vegetarian for 13 years, two decades ago (when it was much harder to find vegetarian food in restaurants); I have a lot of experience with this.

                  You’re right that it can be hard to find veg food in certain restaurants, but not when you have a whole city’s worth of foods available to you. So Chili’s has literally no vegetarian items on their menu? Go to the Greek place instead, or the Ethiopian restaurant, or Chipotle, or etc.

                  And OF COURSE folks who can’t eat out with this parameter shouldn’t be held to it (and, as I’ve said elsewhere, I don’t think this is a good policy overall). I’m just pushing back against the panicked angst that this is an impossible burden across the board.

                3. Clare*

                  I wouldn’t care if the company is selecting meat-free options for company sponsored events or meetings that are being catered. But if I have to travel for work and am grabbing a late dinner at my hotel restaurant, I want to eat what is best for me, which sometimes is vegetarian and sometimes isn’t. So they will reimburse me if I get french fries and onion rings, but wouldn’t reimburse me for a healthy grilled chicken or fish option? I would be pretty pissed that my company thinks it is appropriate to monitor my eating habits that closely. It’s just creepy.

                4. Specialk9*

                  @Victoria – you went to Chipotle, but I assume you weren’t so absolutely greedy as to get guacamole, right???

                  Seriously, if your policy makes you seem like that avocado-denying accountant, you’re likely being a bit overboard.

                5. Whit in Ohio*

                  “So they will reimburse me if I get french fries and onion rings, but wouldn’t reimburse me for a healthy grilled chicken or fish option?”

                  The grilled fish would probably be OK, actually. WeWork’s policy seems to be piscatarian, not strictly vegetarian.

                7. Perse's Mom*

                  @Victoria – so the solution is instead to spend (waste) a bunch of time looking up restaurant options just to see what mightbe appetizing AND would be reimbursable, and then waste more time traveling to get there and actually get dinner. Repeat x however many days/meals during which you’re traveling?

            2. JHunz*

              What do you mean, one meal? If they’re not reimbursing meals containing meat, that means any business trip contains a choice between not eating, changing your diet for the entire duration of the trip, or paying for meals yourself that your employer should be footing the bill for since they’re the ones that sent you there. There is vegetarian food that is great, I am happy to have meatless meals sometimes, but if my employer attempted to tell me that I needed to go to a conference but that they wouldn’t pay for my food while I was there I would tell them where to shove their conference and probably resign.

              1. Kat in VA*

                I”m sure it’s been mentioned elsewhere but what if you’re entertaining clients? Most folks are used to caps on dollar amounts for meals, but I’m not sure clients would be entertained by someone telling them, “You can only order vegetarian dishes or my company won’t reimburse me.”

            3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              I agree. I’m not vegetarian, but I’m always baffled by people who find the idea of eating a single vegetarian meal difficult. (You see this w/r/t weddings — great offense taken when a vegetarian couple serves a vegetarian meal.)

              Like, if a meal weren’t announced as vegetarian would they even notice? Do these folks truly never have grilled cheese, fettucine alfredo, or a spinach omelette?

              I acknowledge that’s much more difficult to eat low-carb/Paleo/”clean” as a vegetarian without delving into ingredients that lots of meat eaters have an untested aversion to (lentils, tofu, etc.). I eat Paleo-esque, so I get it. But even with that restriction it’s not that complicated to eat veg for one meal a day.

              1. Rosemary7391*

                I don’t think I’ve ever just had one meal a day paid for by my employer. It’s always been a week. And I like most vegetarian food and eat it once or twice a week at home. But I find it much harder when I’m eating out – most places I eat out at only have one or two vegetarian options. Also, if you combine it with any other dietary restriction it’s going to become significantly harder.

              2. Ali G*

                It’s not one meal though. I have literally been in nowhere Mississippi working 12 hour days for a week (sometimes staying over the weekend for a second round) and the most convenient (or existing) options are Popeye’s or McDonald’s. I hate fast food, but if I am forced to eat it I am at least going to get something cooked rather than their sad, likely salmonella infested salad. And if I am working offsite, my employer should pay for it, full stop.

              3. Soooo hungry, soooo stymied*

                The event planner in my office once decided to do a vegetarian dinner without telling us in advance. I definitely noticed. On a buffet table with between a dozen and twenty different food stuffs, there was precisely one thing that I could eat: mini cupcakes. (I did try to find other foods that I could stomach as I was starving, but I was unsuccessful.) After an unusually long day working on the event that spurred this dinner, I was exhausted to begin with, and it was hard to maintain a smiling professional demeanor on the basis of six mini sugar highs for two hours.

                You may not be a vegetarian now, but if you were for 13 years, you probably are more okay with vegetarian foods than the average person. As a general rule, if the vast majority of people don’t do something, there’s probably a darn good reason for it.

                1. Anonymosity*

                  I think if I wanted to do a vegetarian meal for a meeting (to make it healthier, themed, etc.), I’d find someone in the company who was a veggie and ASK THEM TO HELP ME plan menus/find a caterer so people could eat!

                2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                  But that’s precisely my point.

                  In my experience, most folks are happy with vegetarian food if it’s not presented as Dreaded Vegetarian Food. Cheese ravioli are vegetarian. Tomato soup is vegetarian. Pancakes are vegetarian. You don’t have to get into the oh-so-shocking world of lentils to avoid meat.

                3. Guacamole Bob*

                  Either your event planner ordered a terrible array of food, or you have a very restrictive diet or are very picky. I’m really confused at what 12-20 items someone could pick where there wouldn’t be *something* that each person could eat. Sure, you could make everything with fake meat that seems weird to non-vegetarians (and even to me as a vegetarian – I’m not a fake meat fan), but a lot of dishes that a typical caterer would provide are things that are normally served as side dishes, or the kinds of pastas and salads that in other circumstances might have chicken on them.

                  I can totally understand that not everyone wants to eat vegetarian and that some people have dietary restrictions or medical conditions that would make a vegetarian diet really hard if not impossible to manage on an ongoing basis. But being totally unable to find anything to eat at a robust vegetarian meal strikes me as a very unusual experience.

                4. Forrest*

                  I am also interested in hearing about your diet where the only non-meat thing you can eat is cupcakes.

                5. Seltzer Fan*

                  I have to say I’m curious about what that array of food was like that with at least 12 options nothing other than cupcakes seemed palatable. Did your event planner go for some really unusual theme?

                  To echo others in this thread, I understand veg options not being everyone’s top choice—I’m an omnivore who has occasionally eaten Whole30/paleo which is really tough to do without meat! But so many run-of-the-mill side dishes are already meat-free (or even mains like cheese pizza or falafel!) that I’m surprised a large buffet didn’t have anything else you could stomach.

                6. Soooo hungry, soooo stymied*

                  Guacamole Bob and Seltzer Fan:
                  The organizer went with catering from a local restaurant that’s aimed at vegetarians. Said restaurant is highly regarded; the organizer didn’t just throw a bunch of salads at us. (The restaurant may have an entirely vegetarian menu, I don’t remember for sure.) Most items on the table featured meat substitutes. Of the minority that lacked fake meat, the flavors were dominated by foods commonly known to be disliked by large percentages of people. If I remember correctly, several had mushrooms, and something else had eggplant. (I tried a couple that looked like maybe I could eat around the mushrooms/eggplant – no dice.) I don’t eat everything out there, but I’m not a super picky eater like y’all are suggesting. Since both of you seem to either be vegetarian or have dabbled with vegetarianism, I’d reiterate my suggestion to Victoria Nonprofit – just because you find a vegetarian diet doable for yourself, doesn’t mean that it’s somehow non-problematic to dump it on the vast majority of people who do not follow that diet. One of the reasons that businesses don’t usually do this is that they are actively picking out foods that are amenable to the widest, most diverse group of people.

                  By the way Victoria Nonprofit, I’d point out that two-thirds of the foods you suggested are never going to be served at official work functions – soup is considered a starter, not a main meal, and pancakes aren’t even served at work breakfasts, which are usually dominated by pastries with perhaps some yogurt and granola thrown in. Even ravioli is an uncommon option for work meals, because it’s messy. That’s not to say that it’s impossible to do, just that ordering food for events is more complicated than you might expect.

                7. Forrest*

                  So it wasn’t so much as “couldn’t” but “wouldn’t.”

                  Which is the risk that is always run when companies put together these things. It’s not something that specific to vegetarian-only meals.

                  Sometimes you just need to suck it up and eat stuff that you think is gross or pick food out of something.

                9. Forrest*

                  Since you didn’t cite any health reasons and just said that they included a lot of food people dislike, then yes, you could have eaten it but wouldn’t want to.

                  If the worst you feel after eating something is “that’s gross and I don’t like it,” that’s not a couldn’t situation. A couldn’t situation is “this food will send me to the hospital.”

                10. Stop marginalizing people*

                  @Forrest, please stop lecturing sooo hungry about her dietary needs, which are none of your business. We are supposed to take posters at their word here, and sooo hungry says she could not eat any of the vegetarian offerings. She is under no obligation to account to you for her dietary choices.

                11. Forrest*

                  She said she couldn’t eat them because she didn’t like them. That’s extremely difficult from “dietary needs” and actually pretty insulting to people who do struggle with actual dietary issues.

                  Being picky and disliking eggplant is extremely different from being unable to eat food that could put you in the hospital or kill you. It sounds as if app hungry was stuck on an island with only mushrooms to eat, she’s dislike it but would eat them. If that weren’t the case, I’m sure she would have said that because she did try to justify why she “couldn’t” eat the food – she didn’t like it.

                  If someone with a severe peanut allergy was stuck on an island with just peanuts, they’d be screwed. That’s much different from finding a food group gross.

                  And yes, I did take her at her word – her word was she wouldn’t eat anything besides cupcakes because she didn’t like the food. Again, that’s something people risk with every catered work event. It’s not exclusive to vegetarian only events.

                  She’s well within her rights obviously to not want to eat something but let’s not get dramatic about something that could happen at any event regardless if it’s vegetarian only or not.

                12. Soooo hungry, soooo stymied*

                  Forrest:
                  Check my original wording: “there was precisely one thing that I could eat.” I’ve been quite consistent in saying that, so please don’t rewrite my words to say that “[my] word was [I] wouldn’t eat anything besides cupcakes because [I] didn’t like the food.” That is untrue. There was nothing that could enter my stomach and stay there.

                13. Forrest*

                  You said:

                  “Of the minority that lacked fake meat, the flavors were dominated by foods commonly known to be disliked by large percentages of people. If I remember correctly, several had mushrooms, and something else had eggplant. (I tried a couple that looked like maybe I could eat around the mushrooms/eggplant – no dice.) I don’t eat everything out there, but I’m not a super picky eater like y’all are suggesting.”

                  Notice you say two things that imply this is a “wouldn’t” isn’t of “couldn’t” – 1) you used to word “dislike” when it came to the food and 2) you’re not a super picky eater – meaning you were being picky about these foods.

                  Not liking food and finding it gross to eat is not at all the same as you physically can’t eat it.

                  And like I said, being picky about certain foods and feeling gross when you eat them can happen at any catered event. This isn’t something exclusive to vegetarian only events so I fail to see how it’s an argument against vegetarian only events.

                14. Indie*

                  So hungry, I am really shocked on your behalf that people have felt it’s ok to call another adult a ‘picky eater’. Imagine if someone said vegetarianism was a nitpicky non medical preference! I mean, if you are crashed atop a mountain and have to eat your dead friends; you might have to go ultra logical, non preference and risk vomiting for the sake of survival. But for a job? If there are cupcakes, you’re going to choose cupcakes over vomit.

              4. Tau*

                There’s a difference, to me, between catering the company dinner as vegetarian and saying you’ll only be reimbursing vegetarian meals. The latter is unlikely to be only a single meal.

                And, you know, I’m an omnivore who doesn’t actually eat meat all that much. When I go out to eat, I often end up with the veggie option simply because it sounds much more tasty. However, I have also been bouncing between borderline and severely anemic for the past three or so years, and meat remains pretty much the best way of getting iron in your diet. If my company told me I couldn’t eat meat whenever I was on a business trip, I’d be pretty unhappy.

                1. tangerineRose*

                  I’m a vegetarian, and I think this policy is an overreach If I worked for a company that decreed this, I’d wonder what they’d take away next. Plus, eating vegetarian on a business trip is harder (at least it has been for me) because there are usually fewer options – instead of eating at home or picking whatever restaurant, I might be eating at a conference dinner with 1 vegetarian option or trying to find something I like at a hotel restaurant.

              5. Observer*

                The “one meal” thing is a total red herring.

                If you are going to a conference, for instance, it’s generally NOT “one meal”. Also, it’s also not always that easy to get what you what makes sense for you at best, and it gets worse if you start adding limits. So, yes, if you are in an ares with lots of options nearby, it’s not that big of a deal. But, a lot of convention areas actually don’t have a lot of convenient options. Please don’t tell me that you think it’s reasonable to expect people who don’t eat that way to manage on yogurt, cheese, fruit and veggies for a couple of days or more. And if someone has any other dietary restrictions, that’s another level of difficulty.

                The combination of multiple meals and lack of reasonably accessible options means that this is going to be a burden for anyone with any food restrictions and probably for a lot of people without a lot of restrictions.

                A lot of WeWork locations are NOT near good food options (I just had occasion to look into this), and they are also going to ban these foods from their food kiosks. That’s highly likely to lose them business, too.

            4. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

              One meal certainly can be all these things and more. But, as an example, my work team is going on a week-long trip to our employer’s office in another state. Lunches will either be provided or I guess we could all carpool somewhere for lunch (we’ll be sharing a rental car), provided of course that there won’t be any work or work meetings scheduled over lunch for any of us (unlikely). I cannot begin to imagine the reaction if we were all told that none of our meals for the week of the trip would contain meat. I for one would be constantly hungry and eating all the junk food from the satellite office’s vending machine. One meal at an optional work event is okay, but a week of mandatory vegetarian food (at events like business trips, all-day training, all-day meetings) when you don’t have an option to go and buy your food anywhere else would make me pretty unhappy.

            5. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

              You realize that some people eat on company reimbursement for literally 1/2 if not more of their meals?

            6. a heather*

              A single vegetarian meal would have WAY too many carbs for my particular diet; I need high-protein, low carb meals. Protein in the vegetarian world comes with carbs. Carbs mean bloating and gas for me in particular, which would leave me feeling awful (not to mention the horrific-smelling gas that everyone else would have to endure.)

              How would you feel if someone asked you to eat just ONE meat-filled meal that you paid zero dollars for?

              2. Turner*

                Same. I was a vegetarian for years but I had to stop because of my health. Vegetarian food can be very healthy for some people, but it wasn’t healthy for me. Every person is different and they have different needs.

              3. AdAgencyChick*

                BOOM.

                Powerlifter here. I do not turn up my nose at lentils and beans; however, to get the protein I need, I’d need to eat enough to murder a room with my farts.

                1. Specialk9*

                  “I do not turn up my nose at lentils and beans; however, to get the protein I need, I’d need to eat enough to murder a room with my farts.”

                  ROTFLMAO

              4. many bells down*

                Also, celiac disease. A lot of popular vegetarian options are NOT safe for a celiac. Any pasta dish is right out unless the restaurant has GF pasta. Veggieburgers usually contain flour or gluten. Once, we ordered “mock duck” from a restaurant and realized too late that mock duck is literally just fried gluten.

                At home, I can cook these things with GF flours and pastas (I love a black bean burger), but eating out while on business travel is already a nightmare for my husband.

            7. Thegs*

              I eat sans-meat pretty often, but at the same time I think this decision is way overstepping boundaries. To me at least it has nothing to do with the vegetarianism aspect of it, I would be just as against it if they had instead said, “We will only comp Mediterranean food while the employees are on business travel.” Food is such a personal thing, your company shouldn’t be telling you what you should eat.

              1. Mad Baggins*

                This. It’s not about how morally superior the vegetarian diet is, it’s that the company is claiming sustainability in order to forcibly dictate what the employees eat. I’ve chosen a diet that is right for me, I shouldn’t have to jump through extra hoops so that my meal also pleases the CEO.

            8. Traffic_Spiral*

              Is it really that outrageous that I’m only going to shove one finger up your ass at mealtimes? I’m tired of people acting like one finger is some huge imposition.

              Let people eat what they like and don’t ruin everyone’s meals just because you want to eat veggie and so don’t see the problem in forcing it on anyone else. Other than all the legitimate dietary concerns people have, and the fact that good veggie food is often not readily available when traveling, it’s deeply intrusive and insulting to have your employer shoving his nose into what you have for dinner.

          2. you don't know me*

            I’m a meat eater but if my work offered me a free vegetarian lunch each day you can bet I would eat it!

            1. YuliaC*

              Ooh, same here. I am a meat eater because of convenience mostly. I would love to eat vegetarian all the time if someone took the trouble to prepare it for me for free! Assuming it was prepared well and was not just plain raw vegetables on a tray.

          3. Koala dreams*

            As an omnivore myself, I don’t understand this statement. Did you mix up the words? Omnivore generally means eating both vegetarian and meat-based food. If you mean that you only can eat meals with meat, you might want to say carnivore.

            1. Andy*

              I don’t believe I did? I meant to use omnivore. Carnivore isn’t ‘only meals WITH meat’, but rather only meals that are only meat. And vegetarian is only meals that are no meat, and omnivore is meals with yes some meat and yes some non-meats. So I, as an omnivore, would be looking to eat a spectrum of items that hopefully include meats. Not at all meals, I actually eat vegetarian meals quite frequently, but I’ve got some protein and iron issues that are handled very well by making sure I eat a minimum of some lean meats. My dr. explained it, but I’m sure my translation wouldn’t do his any justice.

      3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        I’m with you, this might actually be my hill to die on. As someone that travels ~50% I eat a lot of meals on the road.

        Either that or I’d get real creative in how I ask my meals to be rung up at restaurants.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Now I’m imagining going to like… Qdoba and ordering a burrito bowl but asking for a separate order with my chicken that I pay for separately.

          1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

            See and I was going to say… Yeah, I want to order the steak, but please ring it up as the same priced tofu surprise.

            It would probably result in higher tipping costs, but the right server would probably find a way to make this work.

        2. Ali G*

          I wonder what their reimbursement policy is. At OldJob we didn’t have to submit receipts for anything under $25. I got a lot of wine paid for by closing out before $25 ;p

      4. Susana*

        I’m loathe to micro-regulate companies regarding things like reimbursing meals. But then, it’s not much worse than WeWork micro-managing the personal health choices of its employees. You’re setting up a situation where people with one diet get reimbursed for a *business* expense, and others aren’t. It’s not like it’s an incentive – such as providing discounts to vegetarian meals in the office. Meals out while traveling is a business expense. And other than putting a dollar limit on it that’s equal for all employees, they should not be making these personal decisions for employees.

        1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

          I’m from Germany, and traveling a lot on business (44 countries in the last 5 years, just had to list them all for a visa application).
          Here the official (tax) rules give a defined amount per day for meals, depending on the country I travel to, for the US it’s about 60$.
          Free meals are deducted (breakfast 20%, lunch / dinner 40%).
          No need for receipts. If I’m staying for a week in one place, I get stuff from the grocery store to make myself a sandwich for dinner the way I like it (no mayo) and save; some days I spoil myself, and pay the rest out of pocket.
          This system ensures my employer has no say in what I eat – but at our (subsidized) cafeteria there is always one vegetarian option out of the four hot meals on offer, plus a veggie buffet and a salad buffet. Last time I did a count I ended up with 3 veggie to 2 non-veggie lunches per week, on average.

          So where I (used to, I’m on long term loan to the US right now We Work’s scheme would not work.

      5. Triple Anon*

        I’m sure they’ll get sued by someone who has to eat meat for religious or medical reasons. Unless they are accommodating those things and it isn’t included in the news coverage.

    6. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

      I’m a meat eater, but I’m happy about WeWork’s move. According to them, it’s all about lowering the carbon footprint, and they have ways to get special permission if you’re one of the (extraordinarily rare) people who *need* to have meat in their diet. WeWork is a pretty big company, so I think it can make a difference, and it’s kind of a genius market differentiator for them.

      The last time I had a job that involved buying food for large groups of people, we defaulted to all-vegetarian too. A person in leadership was the one who actually made the decision (he just said to me “I’m thinking about making a rule that all food in the office has to be vegetarian. Using my power for good” and I just ran with it) and tbh it made life a lot easier for me! And very few complaints, so long as you have a reasonably robust menu. Easier to accommodate food allergies too, in a lot of cases.

      1. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

        I should adapt that last sentence from “food allergies” to “dietary requirements” generally, because it’s also hella easy to accommodate halal, kosher, and vegan options in a vegetarian context too.

        1. Observer*

          That’s actually not necessarily true. If you told me I couldn’t have meat or chicken while traveling, there would be a good chance that I couldn’t eat altogether. See, I am NOT going to eat “vegetarian” food from a restaurant that is not certified kosher. Unless you are going strictly vegan, it’s not going to be kosher. Even vegan places have their issues for someone who actually keeps kosher the whole way.

          In my experience, in many places there is more likely to be a place to get kosher prepared meat meals than dairy / vegetarian.

          And that doesn’t even start with the issues that come up if someone has an additional food restriction – and there is no reason to believe that people who eat kosher or Halal have fewer other food restrictions than the population at large.

          As for accommodating food allergies, vegetarian is in no way easier than meat. Keep in mind that the 7 (or eight) most common food allergens are all vegetarian. And 4 of them are vegan. And that doesn’t cover the myriad of other food sensitivities – some of which are well documented. Most of those are either vegetarian and often vegan.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I think ordering all-vegetarian for in-office meals is a great idea. I just balk at the refusal to allow people to expense any kind of meat in their meals while they’re on the road.

          1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

            Oh wow that is a good point. What if they (ie the company) are treating the client to a meal? Are we now telling the client that they’re not allowed to order any meat? That should go over nicely.

        3. smoke tree*

          This is where I come down as well. The in-office meals are more of a perk, so as long as they take dietary restrictions into account, I think it’s fine that they set whatever limits they want. But the reason employers typically cover meals for business travel is so that employees don’t have to basically pay out of pocket for business expenses–it’s not for their benefit. In that case I think it’s overstepping to make employees conform to the business’s moral code during their free time.

          Not to mention that it feels like a real waste of time for whoever has to approve the expenses–do they have to try to decipher the restaurant’s order codes to see if any of them might conceivably contain meat? What if the receipt doesn’t specify–do they have to call up the restaurant to check in about their employee’s order a month before? If the receipt isn’t in English, do they need to hire a translator?

          1. Lissa*

            Oooh yeah. I was originally in favour of this being ok because i was thinking of company lunches etc. But business travel is iffy. I would personally be ok with it but I’m an adventurous eater. I do think getting mad about one meal not having meat is odd but when it’s a whole week it gets harder.

        4. Nesprin*

          Well said! We’ve all been to the convention center in outer nowheresburg where the only readily available food options are a chicken sandwich or a hamburger. My business sponsors me to travel to learn new things and be a better employee- not to navigate the local vegetarian friendly food offerings.

      3. Logan*

        It’s often better to approach these things with the ‘carrot’ mentality than with the ‘stick’. Offer tasty vegetarian meals and people will gladly eat a lot more of them. Refusing to pay for meals with meat, when travelling (especially given my experience with US restaurants, where vegetarian meals are much more difficult to find), would make me very grumpy.

      4. What's with today, today?*

        I have Crohn’s disease and veggies are a huge trigger. I’d be up a shit creek unless it was pasta (without red sauce). Literally.

        2. A tester, not a developer*

          Fellow Crohnie checking in! Sure Susan, I’ll eat that quinoa salad and ancient grains veggie wrap… I assume we’ll be holding the afternoon training session in the ladies’ room? :)

          1. esra*

            Haha right? My favourite is when people go: “But it’s healthy!!!” after you tell them you actually can’t eat nuts, seeds, chunky grains, super dark leafy greens (god I hope kale goes out of fashion soon)…

        3. Dust Bunny*

          I imagine this will be an issue for diabetics, too, since, yes, there are non-meat protein sources but they don’t always work as well with blood sugar as, say, just ordering chicken.

        4. Courageous cat*

          I don’t agree with their policy, but I hope everyone in this thread realizes that in almost all situations like these, people with medical issues will be exempted.

          1. Courageous cat*

            I now see everyone else’s posts about how you shouldn’t have to disclose it to eat normally etc etc, and like, I agree – but what if they only chose to just serve vegetarian food at company functions, which seems widely agreed as ok? You’d still have to disclose it. There are a lot of situations I can think of in which you’d have to disclose a health issue (not even specifics, necessarily, but just that one exists) to be accomodated.

            1. What's with today, today?*

              From experience, if it was one company meal, I’d skip it and eat something Crohn’s friendly before or after. If I was at, say, a conference with only veggie options, I would have food I could eat in my room. Either way, I’m footing the bill, which is okay for one meal or even a couple, but for all business travel is excessive.

            2. Soooo hungry, soooo stymied*

              I think it’s a horrible idea to serve vegetarian meals at company functions, and I’m not sure that I’m seeing a consensus to the contrary in the other comments. I think people are focused more on traveling as that seems more intrusive since some of the meals are on your own time. However, company functions that have meals attached normally are things like working lunches, dinners capping off special events or that someone orders in because something broke and everyone is staying late to fix it, breakfasts with visitors from other organizations who you’re going to be showing around all day… Company-offered meals are not a perk, they’re the way organizations get people to keep working beyond standard working hours. If a company doesn’t actually provide edible meals at these sorts of events, people will either leave or continue working in a bad mood while thinking about how hungry they are, how self-centered their bosses are, and how much they’re being taken advantage of. Either way, it’s to the detriment of the company.

              In my industry, meals are often ordered in for us, and when organizers choose food that’s too specific to their own preferences, this is exactly what happens. We regularly work 12-18-hour days where breakfast, lunch and dinner are provided *because the organizations want us to keep working.* When I first started out, I stuck it out while watching the clock and thinking about how hungry I was. Now, if someone were to pull this nonsense on me, I’d chat for ten minutes or so of the “lunch” before heading to the door to find real food (probably with a colleague from another organization, and probably to discuss how selfish and shortsighted the organizers are for at least part of the meal). While I would take a look at the dinner to see if there was something edible, if I didn’t see anything that looked viable I’d just leave early and either hang with friends from another organization again or get to sleep at a reasonable hour.

              Companies don’t provide meals out of the goodness of their hearts; they do it to keep you working longer.

              1. Traffic_Spiral*

                Yeah, it’s mildly shitty, but it’s not nearly as bad as what they’re actually doing, though.

          2. Lissa*

            I had no idea you couldn’t be vegetarian if you had Crohn’s! Things I learn from AAM..

          3. Whit in Ohio*

            Except that people can get awfully judgey when they find out that you have diabetes. I would not want to admit that sort of dietary need to an employer that had just imposed vegetarianism on their employees. I’d expect discrimination.

            1. Courageous cat*

              You don’t have to tell your coworkers! Just your boss/the people reimbursing you. And information like that is always expected to be confidential, at least as far as I know.

              1. Whit in Ohio*

                And the first time you order the green salad with chicken strips, you’re co-workers will want to know why you’re special and get to order meat when they can’t. Or worse, your co-workers will upbraid you for your cruelty to the poor chickens, and you’ll have to explain your medical issues to get them off your back.

              2. D'Arcy*

                Given the boundary-violating sleaziness and self-righteous veneer of this company’s actions, I would fully expect them to *not* treat any health issue with confidentiality. I would fully expect to be attacked and berated by coworkers for not complying with their fad, with the active collusion of management.

              3. What's with today, today?*

                I’m not interested in telling my boss that eating vegetables causes me to have a period-like blood flow from my anus. Nope.

                1. Courageous cat*

                  Yeah, and I should hope that if the time ever comes that you do need accommodation for any reason, you don’t actually do that then either.

                2. Traffic_Spiral*

                  Courageous Cat: So long as the company isn’t being creepily intrusive or coercive about people’s private lives, it shouldn’t ever have to come up.

          4. Observer*

            “Almost”? So, firstly, you are putting a burden on people with diagnosed illnesses to discuss and disclose that which is really no one’s business. And another burden on people who now need to go and spend time and money to get “acceptable” documentation of their medical need. And what happens if you are not deemed eligible? Who decides if your medical issue is severe enough? I mean, does it REALLY matter if you get hives? That’s just a “lifestyle” / “comfort” issue. (Yes, I’ve had health issues referred to this way.) And what if you are like me and have odd food sensitivities that don’t have a formal diagnostic parameters? My doctor tells me to avoid foods that make me feel sick, but will these guys accept that?

            There are so many ways that this can go wrong, it’s not even funny. Requiring medical documentation for permission to do normal things is a really bad way to treat your staff.

      5. Jadelyn*

        I don’t care what the company wants to do environmentally – they can have all the great intentions in the world, but they DO NOT NEED to be involved in ANY WAY in my personal food choices. And that’s what they’re doing, make no mistake. If I’m traveling for work, I’m human, I have to eat at regular intervals. Those meals should be on the company dime, since I’m traveling on their behalf. So by refusing to reimburse non-vegetarian meals, the company is basically saying “you can either starve, pay for your own food despite being on the clock, or eat the meals we want you to eat.” They’re holding basic necessities of the job over people’s heads to force them to change their diet the way the company wants them to. That is a stunning overreach into employees’ personal lives, and is not remotely appropriate.

        1. All Hail Queen Sally*

          I am a diabetic that has to strictly control my carbs and balance them with protein. I have found that is not so easy with vegetarian meals. I used to eat a lot of vegetarian food, but I have to watch it now.

        2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Yeah it’s the food policing angle that I don’t like. I’m more than happy to eat vegetarian (and was vegan for a while) but I just don’t like my employer being involved in my diet.

        3. Traffic_Spiral*

          Agreed – this is just way too much intrusion into an employee’s personal business.

      6. Cakezilla*

        I don’t *need* meat, but I’m allergic to enough of the common ingredients in vegetarian meals that depending on where I was, it would be really hard for me to find something (the avocado on everything trend right now has been a nightmare for me!) I get stressed just thinking about it because I have no idea where I would fall, not really needing meat but not having good alternatives a lot of the time.

      7. Chriama*

        I think it’s pretty inappropriate to dictate your employee’s food choices like that, especially since this seems to include reimbursement for work travel. Incentivizing is one thing, punishing is quite another.

      8. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

        I’m vegetarian and I had a hardcore wince at WeWork’s decision. Does it make my inner consumer protester happy, sure! But exactly because of the reactions above and the general omnivore knee-jerk reaction to being fed vegetarian food make it…less than a great option. (This isn’t a judgemental statement: many omnivores are rockin’ awesome about eating vegetarian food! But I’ve also had people refuse to come over to my house because I wasn’t going to provide meat. I never said they couldn’t bring their own, but their reactions aren’t terribly uncommon either. :( )
        I absolutely LOVE the idea of catering all in-house meals as vegetarian though. That rocks pretty hard. Especially because catering can always have select meals set aside for the people who need meat in their diet….y’know, like they’ve been doing for vegetarians/kosher/halal/GF folks for ages. I always found it extremely troubling AND frustrating when X amount of vegetarian meals were purchased because they knew of X number of vegetarians, but Y number of omnivores got to the table first and took the veggie options before the vegetarians could get to them.

      9. Artemesia*

        I have literally never seen a vegetarian meal that does not contain the only thing I am allergic to. And plenty of people have digestive issues that are very unhappy with vegetarian diets.

        1. Guacamole Bob*

          Now I’m really curious, because I’ve been a vegetarian for years and can’t think of an ingredient that all my meals have had in common.

          (Totally agree with your larger point that this restriction causes problems and drastically limits options for a lot of people.)

          1. Ktelzbeth*

            Garlic and onions are in almost everything I make, but there are a few exceptions. Otherwise, I use a huge range of different things.

            In general, I agree about the limited options. I can tell you at length about how hard it is to go out to eat as a gluten-intolerant vegetarian.

            1. Observer*

              Yes, well garlic and onions are a surprisingly major issue for a lot of people. And that’s one pair that’s likely to show up in a a huge percentage of meals unless someone is really thinking about it.

            2. Tau*

              My aunt can’t eat fructose and oy vey, I do not envy her diet. And yeah, pretty sure going vegetarian would not be a good option for her.

          3. Banana Pancakes*

            I’m severely allergic to wheat, mushrooms, and sesame, and moderately lactose intolerant, which rules out a lot of veggie options.

            It sucks, because I love Indian, Greek, Japanese, etc. but they’re only really “safe” to eat if I make them myself. A lot of the time, it’s just easier and safer to get chicken.

            I’ve found Thai to be pretty allergy-friendly, though, and my favorite place will swap in tofu or eggplant in place of meat. :)

            /my $0.02-$0.04

      10. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        There are a lot of far more significant things they could do to lower their carbon footprint without barging into their employees’ personal dietary choices or health.

        This is very grandstand-y.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          I’m having trouble figuring out the correlation between meat and carbon footprint. (If I’m honest I don’t really care) but it seems to me that unless you’re eating locally sourced farm to table produce only the difference is not going to be anything to write home about.

          Honestly it seems like one of those kooky ideas that makes someone feel like they are making a difference rather than actually doing something.

            1. Specialk9*

              It really is. Eating meat is a bummer, environmentally. Especially cows – their farts are like environmental killers.

              I am really really looking forward to vat meat. Unfortunately right now vat meat is made with fetal calf serum, ie a product made from fetal calves that are pulled from slaughtered cows and bled to death into tubes while alive. O_O

          2. buttercup*

            Eating beef specifically is one of the most carbon-intensive things you could do. Simply raising and feeding cows (think of the amount of grass and food you have to grow to feed said cows) is very water and energy-intensive, and that’s before you get around to butchering and processing the meat.

            1. Observer*

              There are still a lot of other things that could make at least as much of a difference without getting into people’s diets. Furthermore, while growing beef is more carbon intensive than growing most vegetables, none of these comparisons actually take into account things like transport.

              Also, they are going vegetarian, which generally includes chicken. While chicken farming has it’s issues, it’s rally hard to stretch the claim about carbon to chicken farming.

      11. Triple Anon*

        I think that just increasing the number of vegetarian options and decreasing the amount of meat at company events would be a good middle ground. Usually, the meat options out-number the vegetarian ones. Offer tasty things like grape leaves, falafel, fried tofu with dipping sauces – stuff that might win over the meat crowd and inspire them to add vegetarian meals to their omnivore diet. The way to make a difference is to be friendly, not to antagonize people.

      12. DArcy*

        Yes, it’s a wonderful market differentiator telling people that this is a company run by people who have no boundaries, are incredibly self-righteous, and shouldn’t ever be trusted.

        Next thing you know they’ll literally be firing employees for eating meat, and trying to soin that as an ethics rule.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      The WeWork thing bothers me a lot. There are all kinds of reasons why I think it’s a silly idea from a logistics and personal preference standpoint, but when people travel on company business, they deserve a little bit of convenience and leeway. We’re not talking about $60 steaks, we’re talking about a chicken Caesar salad. I think it’s a touch too paternalistic for my tastes.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes, if when the are catering or whatever they want to provide only vegetarian, fine. But, on the road, it can be hard to get healthy options (I like salads and chicken, for example) and this would be really limiting. If the only veggie option is a side salad and mushroom squash risotto, well, I hate both mushrooms and squash.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Exactly. My partner is a vegetarian, and I know how annoying it can be to find a place with good options. Every time we try a new restaurant in our own town, we have to look up menus to make sure he has some kind of choice. Granted, I can do that in a lot of cities, but if I’m traveling for work and it’s been a long day, it’s really inconvenient to go through all that rigamarole, especially if I simply do not want a veggie burger or a garden salad.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          And how will they even know what I’m eating on the road? Do I have to provide a detailed receipt?

          1. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

            I have to provide itemized receipts, so whoever is approving my expense report will see exactly what I ordered.

            1. Artemesia*

              We always had to provide detailed receipts so we could demonstrate we were not expensing alcohol. I had a food claim kicked back because I didn’t have a detailed receipt from McDonalds.

              1. Antilles*

                We always had to provide detailed receipts so we could demonstrate we were not expensing alcohol.
                This is a pretty common thing. It’s especially common if your line of business is such that your company then turns around and re-bills your meals to a client, because many companies/governments do not allow money to be spent on alcohol. So if you don’t provide a detailed receipt, the client has the right to disallow the entire meal expense.

          2. Detective Amy Santiago*

            Remember Guacamole Bob?

            Apparently itemized receipts are a thing for reimbursements.

        3. Dust Bunny*

          My mom is diabetic and salad with chicken is her go-to meal. She tries not to eat a lot of dairy because fat and cholesterol, and not all of us can eat soy. So . . . egg whites, I guess?

          1. WellRed*

            yes, this is my issue. Also, limited starches. I mean, I’ll eat the pasta if its my only option, but I can’t do that for several meals. Without protein to balance, it’s harder to manage my numbers.

      2. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        I agree. I fully support them only offering vegetarian meals when catering meetings, but my issue is with meal reimbursements when traveling.

      3. Jadelyn*

        Honestly, if I were forced to have only vegetarian food while traveling, I’d probably just subsist on potato chips and Coke – technically, that’s vegetarian, and you can find those things everywhere without having to hunt for salads or a veggie burger.

      4. motherofdragons*

        Paternalistic is exactly the word that came to mind when I first heard about this story. And even though fish is currently allowed, they’ll eventually “evaluate [their] consumption of seafood, eggs, dairy, and alcohol.” (Link for that quote is in my username)

          1. Dragoning*

            Not necessarily–gelatin, for instance, is a animal product, and some vegans won’t eat honey.

            1. smoke tree*

              And then they’ll require that employees stop wearing wool sweaters on company time.

          1. neverjaunty*

            Well sure. This is all about finding fake moral reasons to make people eat the way the big bosses eat, it’s not really about health or carbon footprint.

        3. Anonymosity*

          And then it will be “We follow a breatharian policy; no meals will be reimbursed.”

        4. Observer*

          Oh, gag. This is an attempt to develop “personal accountability”?!

          Their take on this is interesting. I don’t entirely agree, but I think that over all they have a valid point. And I have to give them credit for apparently being consistent.

      5. Guacamole Bob*

        I’ve been a vegetarian for over a decade, and I agree with this. Business travel often sucks, and part of that is how it throws off a person’s normal eating habits. As a vegetarian traveler I can pretty much always find something to eat, but I also eat too many bad veggie wraps from airport kiosks, more dairy and white-flour bread and pasta than usual and fewer actual veggies and whole grains, and I end up snacking on protein bars and junk food because the food options when traveling are usually kind of meh, especially if other people are picking the restaurants. I have no medical issues but on some trips my GI system ends up a bit off after a couple of days and I end up feeling kind of draggy because the available food is different from what I normally eat. I’d imagine that normally omnivorous people who eat vegetarian while travelling might experience something similar, but even more so.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          I agree; fairly often, traveling for work means eating worse than normal.
          When you add traveling as a vegetarian when you don’t want to be one… that’d be really hard.

          As a vegetarian, I tend to bring a large purse-full of snacks for myself (like dried fruits and protein bars) when I have to travel for work AND spend a decent amount of time finding a couple actually good restaurants near my hotel before I leave, just so I don’t have to eat “bad” vegetarian food the whole trip. It requires prep work. I’d be annoyed if I was forced to do that prep work versus choosing to.

        2. Quill*

          I’m a part-time vegetarian (two members of my household are vegetarian and as a rule I don’t complain about free food that someone else cooked,) and though I’ve decided not to go out of my way to completely exclude meat (especially because it’s so much harder when not cooking for yourself,) I’ve noticed that there aren’t a lot of vegetarian options at most restaurants – especially because their vegetarian options can often be their “diet” options.

          If you have cheese, egg, or grain sensitivities, this could become the impossible foodscape pretty fast.

        3. nd*

          I agree with you. I used to travel extensively. And I was vegetarian at the time. I subsisted primarily on junk foods. My health tanked during that time and I am finally getting it back, with a very veggie-heavy diet that includes small amounts of meat. I would be very, very unhappy if I had to return to that very unhealthy pattern of eating.

    9. Betsy Bobbins*

      I’m all for them not offering meat options at their office, after all you can bring your own lunch in, but reimbursement for meals is crossing a line. Someone who is traveling should be able to eat similar food to what they normally would at home, and for many that is not meat free. I eat mostly grain free so I would be one cantankerous bitch if I had to eat just fruits and veggies for a week straight while on the road with limited options.

      1. alice*

        I think they said they’d allow exceptions if you had a medical reason for eating meat. That’s probably covered.

        1. What's with today, today?*

          I’m pretty open about my Crohn’s disease, but it is a DISGUSTING disease. A lot of people aren’t open about it because of the gross symptoms. I’d be wary of making people disclose something like this. I can’t eat a lot of veggies because of the seeds and fiber.

          1. A tester, not a developer*

            I’m in the process of updating my ‘disability accomodation’ paperwork with my employer. My boss is great, but the disability services office has been giving me a hard time, so the next set of forms that do in are going to explain my Crohn’s symptoms in full and horrifying detail. I’m debating submitting glossy 8x10s of my last scope too… :)

            1. What's with today, today?*

              I went that route once (again, I’m pretty open). That said, my MIL asked me about it once (over lunch and before the marriage), and I told her to Google it. Too embarrassing.

        2. Quackeen*

          I don’t have a diagnosis to back it up, but I eat keto and that precludes most vegetarian options in restaurants, since they are largely grain or bean-based. I’d be pissed if my options for getting adequate protein were limited in this way.

        3. Jadelyn*

          Who cares? Why should I have to disclose personal medical information to my employer just to be able to eat ordinary food while traveling on company business?

          Or, for example, I know myself and my body well enough to know that I function best when I have animal proteins on a regular basis. Ideally meat, though eggs can work in a pinch (but I’m allergic to eggs, so while I can eat them I’m going to pay for it with severe stomach pain later). It’s not *medical* per se, in that it’s not linked to a disorder or disease, and I can survive without meat if I have to, it won’t kill me. But I have a harder time focusing, I feel slightly shaky and off-kilter, and the best thing to fix that is just to have some damn meat. I shouldn’t have to walk my boss through the non-medical dietary preferences I’ve developed via trial and error over the years in order to be able to have the very basic food that will allow me to operate in my best condition.

          2. Denise*

            I agree. We shouldn’t have to disclose. But if this were my company I’d fantasize about loading up on the most bothersome veggies and hanging out with the relevant decision makers, asking polite questions and tooting away until either the paint peeled off their walls or the policy went away. “I’m so taken with the new policy that I went vegetarian full time! I’ll eat like this all the time now!”

        4. Chriama*

          What if my medical reason is just “I feel happy and healthy when I eat this way.” It doesn’t sound like it’s any of their business. Plus, not everyone has a diagnosis. Quite frankly, most omnivores are going to gravitate towards grains rather than fruits/veggies and this is likely to harm their health until (unless!) they get educated and adapt to new alternatives.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            But the company’s health care costs will increase as half the people there run to get a doctor’s note so they can have meat in their paid for meals.
            Big Wig 1: “Gee, I can’t figure out why there is an uptick in doctor appointments for the employees….”
            Big Wig 2: “Yes, we will have to raise what they pay toward insurance to help us with this expense increase. I can’t figure it out for the life of me either.”

          2. bacon tastes good*

            Exactly, we do NOT HAVE TO DESIRE TO EAT MEET to you, We Work. Every employee who is ont a veggie-nut needs to say to the CEO, “we’ll stick a boot up your as s, it’s the American way” and sucker punch the guy. And then go out for a stake and beer.. this sounds ike one o those hipster caliornia nutso companies let them bring this crap to texas….

        5. Yorick*

          You shouldn’t need a medical reason to eat meat on a work trip.

          Imagine if they decided to only reimburse for meals that include meat, and you have to get a doctor’s note to have a vegetarian meal.

        6. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          Sadly I’m pretty sure that “I’m going to remain hungry no matter how much I eat, until I’ve had meat” is not a valid medical reason. Though I do know a doctor who can write a creative note….

        7. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Sadly I don’t think “there’s only so many sweet potato/kale/avocado concoctions I can eat in a week” is a medical condition. I have no idea what their work trips are actually like, but if I had to eat out every night in my own city and totally avoid meat it would rapidly become very tedious and difficult. It’s not so much about meat-based dishes, but the fact that this thing will have bacon in it and that thing is pretty much nothing but rice with a few token onions, etc. Basically all the things that make life difficult for vegetarians.

        8. Tau*

          Medical reason can also be a fuzzy thing. As mentioned upthread I have problems with anemia, due to a recurring underlying medical condition I’m unfortunately prone to which I’ll probably be battling for the next decade or two. Meat remains the best way of getting iron in your diet. Am I allowed to eat meat if I’m severely anemic? Mildly anemic? What if I’m not anemic right then but have reason to believe I will be in the near future? And do they get to say “nope, take iron pills instead” (which are horrible. seriously. my stomach lining cries at the thought.)

      2. LBG*

        I just don’t like most veg, (can’t eat some, allergies), don’t eat grains, and my diet is primarily meat/cheese based. Occasionally some green salad under that, which I generally ignore. At the office I’d pack my lunch (do it now anyway), and on the road I’d buy what I want and not seek reimbursement (or figure out if the restaurant would give me a receipt showing a veg option instead). Almost annoying enough of a policy to make me want to microwave fish in their office (j/k I don’t eat fish).

          1. Specialk9*

            “Sylvia, we noticed that every day you go up to the 6th floor east tower, but you work in the 1st floor east tower. From the video it looks like you go across campus and up 6 flights of stairs every day, just to open a can of tuna, use the microwave outside of the C-suite, then you throw away your food without eating. What’s going on?”
            “Mwahahahaha!”

      3. Frea*

        I get debilitating migraines from a lot of things commonly found in vegetarian meals (whereas I know I’m usually safe with a burger), but it’s not technically an allergy. My doctor would give me a note, but a lot wouldn’t. It’s hard enough controlling what I eat on the road, let’s please not add this extra nightmare to it.

    10. Cousin Itt*

      FWIW I think WeWork just banned red meat, pork and poultry so meat eaters could still get reimbursed for meals with fish/seafood

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Still silly, in my opinion. Fish is another food that often isn’t on the menu, and when it is, I find it to be one of the iffiest options out there.

        I eat all manner of things and am perfectly happy enjoying a meatless meal. I just don’t like the idea that when I’m on the road, taking time away from my normal routine (and my vegetarian kitchen!), I should be limited by something that makes my life a little bit tougher. Yes, I am very aware that people who are vegetarian or vegan have to deal with this toughness on a daily basis, and I do wish it were different, but for now? Come on. Let me expense the roast beef sandwich.

      2. WellRed*

        True, but “just” red meat, pork and poultry is all but seafood, which plenty of people don’t care for. I am happy to eat black bean burgers or whatever, but vegetarian options are not always easy to find (looking at you, Minneapolis).

        1. Natalie*

          When were you last in Minneapolis if you had a hard time finding vegetarian food? This is the land of co-ops, decades before anyone had ever heard of Whole Foods.

          1. Jubilance*

            Just going to say the same thing. There are a ton of vegetarian & vegan restaurants here – there’s even a vegan butcher shop! Compared to other places I’ve lived this place is a dream for those who don’t eat meat.

              2. Yorick*

                The vegan butcher shop is like a performing arts thing. They wear aprons and stand in the back pretending like they’re butchers! It’s like a Portlandia sketch.

                I mean, I’m really happy that it exists so that vegetarian/vegans can get delicious fake meats, but still.

                2. Guitar Hero*

                  I guess that’s what I don’t get about this.

                  I’m still waiting for someone to fill me in on how large scale monocropping of things like soybeans for the industrial production of vegetarian/vegan frankenfoods is somehow an environmentally friendly choice. It’s probably better than factory farmed meat, but to pretend like it’s environmentally benign is ignorant.

                3. Mo*

                  Guitar Hero, are you serious? You know that ~90% of soybean production worldwide is fed to animals? And another ~50% of grains? So it’s mostly meat-eaters that are causing the “soybean monocrops”. And a lot of vegans/vegetarians don’t even eat soy. It’s sooooo much more environmentally friendly than eating meat. (And all this stuff is easily googleable…)

          2. WellRed*

            About 4 years ago, but was only there for two days and no easy time to research anything.

            1. OhNo*

              Well if you ever come back this way again, it looks like there’s plenty of people here in the comments who would have recommendations for you!

              1. WellRed*

                I may never do anything new without seeking the advice of the commentariat here ever again.

        2. Jadelyn*

          Seafood allergies are also pretty common, more so than allergies to other types of meats.

          1. Solidus Pilcrow*

            Yep, shellfish allergy checking in.

            Funny thing is, living in the upper Midwest it’s usually not that difficult of an allergy to accommodate/avoid.. until your new team comes to town and they all want to eat at seafood restaurants. Bah!

      4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I guess fish generally has a lower carbon footprint, but it’s still environmentally problematic. Will they only reimburse meals that contain fish that are not overfished, farmed in questionable conditions, etc?

        1. Specialk9*

          I find seafood to be so gross. Everything drains into the ocean. The oil spills on your driveway. The pesticides. The chemicals in all the toiletries and cleaning products. The medications, either pre or post human bodily processing. Poop and pee and decay of truly monumental proportions. Aaaaaaall in your swordfish filet and sea salt.

      5. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

        It’s okay to eat fish, ’cause they don’t have any feelings!

    12. Kittymommy*

      I don’t really care about the wework thing (I actually had never heard of them) I do find it interesting that 1. People with religious or dietary issue are being told to work with the companies global team to look at available options and 2. WeWork sponsored a Southern Smoke culinary festival last year in Texas.

    13. Just Another Analyst*

      I should be angry about the DMV napper wasting taxpayer dollars, but honestly I always feel so bad for the employees at the DMV whenever I’m there. It’s soul sucking just to be a visitor at the DMV, I can’t even imagine how terrible it must be to work there.

      Also, I’m extremely curious as to how she was able to get away with this for FOUR YEARS before anyone noticed. I have multiple people asking for my whereabouts if I’m away from my desk for more than 15 minutes, I can’t understand how regular 3-hour unexplained absences wouldn’t be noticed right away.

      1. Alex the Alchemist*

        Yeah, my mom used to work for the DMV many years ago and she says it’s the reason Les Miserables is her favorite musical… She sang “Look Down” to herself all day everyday to keep herself amused.

    14. Leela*

      I’m a former vegan who still would be if it weren’t for an incompatible health situation (autoimmune disorder + cancer mean I’m not pulling iron out of the plant food I eat, even if I eat more than enough of it, and low iron serious exacerbates the cancer).

      I wouldn’t enjoy this no-meat reimbursement policy at all. Veganism and vegetarianism are great but it’s not a given that it’s viable for every type of body or health situation. Also I don’t know the exact math on this but certain vegetarian foods can have a very high carbon footprint as well (though I’d be very surprised if they were approaching the levels of meat in the way we’re raising it now).

      I’d be a lot more open to it if they were truly morally opposed to the way animals are raised and went “we can’t in good conscience support this”. Still a risky move and likely to cost employees who wouldn’t want their bosses morals financially imposed on them, but this just reeks of doing something to show how outside the box they are (kinda like banning straws and replacing them with something that takes more plastic) but is more for show than for solving the problem IMO.

    15. Database Developer Dude*

      Regarding the WeWork thing, I wonder what the backlash would be if an employee said “I can no longer travel, because I have to have meat as part of my diet, and the company will no longer reimburse me for meals with meat in them”.

    16. A Vegetarian*

      I’m already vegetarian (so I totally want to attend this company’s work events!) so I’d obviously be fine with this, but I do feel like it would create a hardship for people trying to find vegetarian food while traveling to unfamiliar places. I’m used to scouring menus ahead of time, but most omnivores are not.

      Hope they never travel south, where (in my experience) your food comes topped with fried chicken and/or bacon whether you ordered it or not.

      1. Antilles*

        Hope they never travel south, where (in my experience) your food comes topped with fried chicken and/or bacon whether you ordered it or not.
        True, but in a lot of cases, it’s not specifically called out as such – the Southern Salad is identified on the menu (and in reality) as a salad topped with chicken bits and bacon, but the receipt simply lists it as “S. Salad”, so the accountant at WeWork authorizing your expense reports doesn’t know that unless they manually track down the menu.

    17. Bob Loblaw*

      I, for one, am NOT interested in scanning my employees’ expense report receipts for meals that may have contained meat. Thank god I don’t work for WeWork.

    18. Lucille2*

      I find it interesting that in order to reduce carbon footprint, WeWork will not reimburse meals containing meat for business travel. Perhaps the more effective approach to reducing the carbon footprint of their business is to implement policies that reduce the need for business travel (assuming majority of it is air travel). I believe I read a comment above where they sent their staff to a music festival in the UK, and somehow that is less of an environmental issue than requiring employees to eat vegetarian while traveling? I’m thinking the latter will cause employees to overcompensate before/after business trips or opt to pay for their own meals. So, I seriously doubt this will have any affect on the environment and is intended to start some kind of conversation.

  2. 123456789101112 do do do*

    Hi everyone, I seem to be amassing a bunch of keys at work. I also acquired a USB dongle for authentication, and of course I have an ID that I currently wear on a lanyard. Having to carry all that stuff around is LOUD. How do you deal with your collection of work keys?

    1. Dorothy Zbornak*

      Can you buy those rubber key caps to put on all the keys? It would help keep the tops from clinking together.

    2. Peter Herring*

      I don’t work in a super high security environment but I do carry a bunch of keys. I hang them up after I get everything unlocked and pick them up if I am headed somewhere I need them. I carry them on a caribenner at 2 o’clock.

    3. Antilles*

      Key covers!
      Basically, it’s a little piece of plastic that goes over the top part of the key – so it doesn’t affect the actual function of the key, but gives the top part a bit of a ‘buffer’ so it tends to make a lot less noise because the keys bounce against each other less.
      They’re available in all sorts of designs, but you can get some cheap ones from like Home Depot or Walmart or the like for a couple bucks for a pack of them. It also helps if you have a bunch of keys that look nearly identical, because you can just remember by the color/design.

      1. Anonymosity*

        Yep!
        I have one I use to identify my house key at night, when I forget to turn on the light outside. I can find it quickly by feel. Getting it into the keyhole is something else again. My door is configured strangely against the jamb and the key covers with lights don’t always fit.

    4. Safetykats*

      I keep my keys in my desk. For me, there doesn’t seem to be any particular reason to carry them around. Our admin also has a lot of keys – she keeps them in a locking key box that is attached to her desk, since there would be security concerns for some of the keys she owns if she just had them in a drawer.

    5. Try This Maybe?*

      You can get key cases that hold your keys in a sort of Swiss Army knife formation so they don’t jangle or damage your pockets/bag. Won’t solve all your problem but might help? Link in username

      2. DArcy*

        I absolutely love my KeySmart, which is the “Swiss Army” style key holder mentioned above. The KeySmart Pro they introduced last year also integrates a Tile tracker.

    6. Muriel Heslop*

      I have to wear my lanyard and keys at all times and I use key caps in different colors.

    7. DashDash*

      I use a key case – close to a leather wallet, but inside the fold are clips where you can attach keys. This is also a good idea if you have any high level security access via physical key – if they’re in the case, not only do they not jingle around, but no one can take a photo to make a copy of, say, the master key to all of your server rooms!

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Those are also very stylish! But they require pockets – I put all of my various yubikeys/actualkeys/usb etc on a caribeener and attach it and tuck it into a small bag I where pretty much everywhere.
        Someday I want to do the maker thing and put them all into a swiss army knife though.

        1. DashDash*

          Mine does have a clip so it doesn’t have to be in a pocket (which is great, since women’s clothing with useful pockets is the Moby Dick of fashion), buuuut that does at least require a belt loop.

    8. JeanB in NC*

      I carry one key on me that unlocks my file cabinet where all the rest of my keys are, in a little binder with labeled keys. I just have too many keys that look alike, and I can’t just lock my office door anymore because I’m in a shared office and have to keep payroll, etc. locked up.

      1. Anon for now*

        I have to carry about 30 keys with me at all times at work so I got a carabiner with a nylon strap so I can clip my keys to my belt loop and then the strap is long enough that I can slip them in my back pocket so they don’t jingle.

    9. AdminX2*

      Do you have to carry them? I have a clip for my ID, one ring of 3 keys to my drawer- which keeps all the other keys/dodads. They come out of my purse in the morning to unlock, and it goes back in when I leave.

    10. AnonyMouse*

      I only keep the ones that are essential for me to have on my person at all times on my lanyard (the key to our office suite and the key to my office). I also have keys for classroom spaces (I work in higher ed), but I keep them on a separate key ring hanging in my office.

    11. M. Albertine*

      I didn’t even know I needed the answer to this questions. Thank you for asking!

    12. LCL*

      All my work keys are on a key ring, the key ring is on a spring clip. I clip it to a belt loop..

  3. Emma*

    That article about not obsessing over emails/interactions when job-searching couldn’t have come at a better time! I had an interview a couple weeks ago & followed up yesterday. I’m trying very hard to remember that there is no secret code behind “decisions should be made by tomorrow”, or the fact that the response came exactly 20 minutes after my initial email, or that they haven’t asked for references, or or or or… Just trying to put it out of my mind & focus on work. Still gonna have a heart attack each time my phone buzzes today though! Also, thanks for all the tips on handling being gf in the office- bringing my own food & making suggestions when I can seem like the way to go!

    1. Xarcady*

      I have no advice to offer, but I’m in the same situation job-searching-wise.

      It’s challenging, especially because the job I really want is the one that I’m temping for right now. Not only do I get to obsess about emails, I also get to wonder, “Gee, Big Boss is headed to the conference room. Is she interviewing?” “Boss and Big Boss haven’t been seen in two hours. Is it a meeting or are they interviewing?”

      I have been trying really hard not to notice when certain key people are away from their desks and just focus on getting the work done, but it is not easy.

  4. JokeyJules*

    How can I get coworkers who are technically parallel to me in the hierarchy of our company to complete tasks I need them to do? My position is admin assistant, but I’ve been taking on more and more responsibilities as I transition into the role of national proposal and project coordinator. My email signature still says admin assistant and I’ve been having to follow up with people asking them to input data into our database (which they should have already been doing) so that I can continue working with those numbers for time sensitive spreadsheets. Overwhelmingly I’m told to go find the info myself on the network server, rather than them doing it. It’s frustrating because they say they’re too busy, but so am I. I literally don’t have time to do that for everyone. I think it’s because of the “admin assistant” title I still have, and they think I shouldn’t even be asking them to do it and do it for myself. How can I handle/get around this?

    1. Temperance*

      Why can’t you change your title?

      I would honestly think that you were an assistant trying to get me to do your work, especially if you have been a peer.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Yeah, if your job duties have changed, that needs to be communicated to them. A title change would indicate that. Or your boss/their boss needs to tell them.

      2. JokeyJules*

        I can’t change it yet because I’m still technically the admin assistant for my office. This transition is into a new role that hasn’t existed in the company yet, so we are still building it.
        The other thing is, the project managers are the only ones with permission in the database to enter in the info I need. When they ask me to just do it instead, I have to find the proposal document, make sure it’s the most recent version, and find the amount on a cost sheet that might be incorrect anyway. It truly is part of their job to enter that info in promptly, and I cannot fully complete that task for them.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Okay, this may be a stupid question, but have you explicitly told them “I actually don’t have the necessary permission to do that for you?”

          1. JokeyJules*

            I haven’t, but it’s not really the biggest issue. I just need the number for my spreadsheet, so i specify that it isn’t in the database.

            The response is always “It would be more efficient for you to find this on the network drive ;)”
            Yeah, more efficient for YOU

            1. Stormfeather*

              Honestly it sounds like you need to flat-out tell them “this is part of your job, and I do not have the time to do this for everyone, I really need this information,” and/or have a talk with your boss about it. More politely if necessary, but also without any padding like “it would be nice if you could…”

            2. Temperance*

              So that’s the issue, right? I think you need to make it clear that you can’t update the database.

              The other issue is that, on the org chart, PMs outrank admin assistants.

            3. Rusty Shackelford*

              The response is always “It would be more efficient for you to find this on the network drive ;)”

              “Sorry, that’s not an option! ;) Can I count on getting this info by EOB tomorrow? Thanks!”

            4. Specialk9*

              “Hi PM’s boss, I needed this number from someone on your team, in order to meet X deadline for Y important reason. PM can’t get it to me, who else should I get this data from on a weekly basis? Thank you.”

        2. Courageous cat*

          So just to further clarify – you’re saying you, as an admin assistant, are technically parallel to the project managers in your company? That seems like an unusual structure which might play into this.

          1. JokeyJules*

            It goes CEO-> Executive vice presidents -> Senior vice presidents -> National Dept Managers AND regional directors -> regional dept managers -> Everyone else (tech staff, PM’s, and all admin)

        3. Epocene*

          I’m seeing other replies focusing on the job title, but the thing is even if they DO outrank you they still are required to do certain tasks. When I was an admin I had to lean on my boss to communicate to others that I was not paid to do tasks they didn’t want to do. Sometimes we called my job the “receptacle of small favors”.

          Frankly this behavior pisses me off. Even if you COULD look up the info, which you apparently can’t, they should still be doing this without complaint. Talk to your supervisor before you put your foot down, because sometimes these things can be politically thorny. But once you have the go ahead, just be clear that they are required to input the data themselves and just hold the line.

          I felt my blood pressure rise just reading your post. So sorry you’re dealing with this.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      In my experience, no matter what your title is, people who balk at doing that kind of thing are balking because it hasn’t been made a priority for them. Do their bosses know they’re supposed to be doing it? Does your boss know you don’t have time to do it for them? I’d worry less about them understanding your role, and more about them understanding their roles. Because even if you’re the very lowest person on the org chart, if it’s their responsibility, it’s their responsibility.

      1. JokeyJules*

        That might be it. This company has a great culture, but part of it is that everyone is and always should be suuuuuuper busy. Everyone overbooks themselves intentionally

      2. Saffie Girl*

        I agree – I have a title of Project Manager and the amount of pushback I get on items that are clearly the persons responsibility is astounding. I have gotten very good at (diplomatically) pushing back. Ask your supervisor how much leeway you have in managing the other staff for the project. In my organization, I have found that no one else will manage this stuff for me.

        1. JokeyJules*

          My response is usually
          “Whenever you get a chance before Wednesday (or whatever day is before my due date but no less than 3 business days), that would be great. Thanks!”

    3. Thlayli*

      It’s probably not because of your title. This happens to everyone. I’ve had plenty of admin assistants tell me they’re too busy to do something, and plenty of people at all levels in the hierarchy do the same.

      The way to get around it is to 1 talk to your own boss – clarify if necessary and make absolutely certain this is the other persons job not yours, 2 make sure your boss knows you don’t have time to do this and makes sure she will back you up when you refuse, 3 address it with the person in the monent (a polite version of “i don’t have time to do your job”, 4 if they still refuse ask your boss to take it up with their boss.

      Basically you have to follow the organisation spine – if they won’t listen to you you go up a level to your boss, who might talk to them direct or she might talk to their boss.

      Make it clear that it’s not just one person once in a while this is a systemic problem and you don’t have time to chase people or to do it yourself.

      1. Thlayli*

        If your boss doesn’t back you up or just tells you to do it, and ignores your statement that you don’t have time, then you have a bad boss and need to consider whether you’re willing to work with that boss.

        1. JokeyJules*

          I agree, I just don’t want it to seem like i’m running to my boss complaining about them. I’m worried it might even encourage the idea that i’m below them.

          But at the same time, it needs to get done and it’s their responsibility, and that’s that.

          1. Seriously?*

            If they are too busy to do it (or say that they are) then you need to loop in their manager to figure out exactly what priority their manager gives this task. It is possible that they actually should be prioritizing other work.

    4. epi*

      I have done this in a few roles. Currently my struggle is to get research faculty to return program evaluation data on their projects, as a grad RA (but one with an unusual level of responsibility– I’ve been with this project four years and and run the process in question.)

      It’s common in project work to have a project level title describing your role that isn’t what you’re called according to HR. If you can’t get your formal title changed yet, add something like “Coordinator, Head Dyeing Project”– whatever will get it across without sounding too much like you are using a real title from your organization. In some places you could just go ahead with this, others you may want to clear it with your boss.

      If you can’t change your title yet, you need to look at the wording of your request. Use stronger words like that you are coordinating or managing the project, never say you are helping, supporting, etc. Don’t offer support for related tasks in the message where you tell people what they need to do. Overall, phrase it more like a notification and less like a request.

      Name drop and cite relevant policy, maybe a proposal or protocol in your case. Work in a mention of what you will do with the information so they understand they are the bottleneck here. And if you really need to, get permission to cc your boss or have some of the reminders come from them. This sucks long term but it can get you through a wait for a title change.

      Finally some of this is just part of soliciting information from people that you need more than they do. It’s an eternal struggle in evaluation. It can help to redesign forms, look at your needs and make sure you are requesting the minimum information possible, and show people how it is being used (especially if you are saving them work by using the data for more than one thing). But to some extent it just comes with the territory.

    5. Elemeno P.*

      Can you CC an important-sounding person to make them more likely to act? This very much depends on your relationship with the people in question, but it works well for me. I have a low-ish title (Sr Coordinator) and need to do work with high-level people (Directors to VPs). If they don’t respond to me, I CC someone important-sounding on my team and they’ll usually respond.

      You do have to read the situation to make this work. It needs to be relevant to the important-sounding person, and if that person is your mutual manager then you’ll come across as kind of a jerk. This specifically works for me because the people on my team need the information I’m trying to get for them, and they know that they’re just being copied so I can get someone to comply. All situations are different!

    6. M. Albertine*

      I find that communicating deadlines ahead of time helps me get the information and helps other people prioritize their work. “I need _____ from you by xx/xx in order to complete reporting for the Teapot Regulatory Authority by their deadline” or “Please have your timesheets completed by xx/xx for monthly grant reimbursement”. That way it’s not YOU who is asking for the information, you’re borrowing the authority of the people you are accountable to for your reports.

    7. Ron McDon*

      I work as an admin assistant in a school, and have a similar problem; teachers are supposed to upload their own year group information/documents to our website, but they feel it should be the admins role to do this (and a surprisingly high number of them are not very confident using tech).

      I found that they would ask me to do it (and many other things that they think should be my job/they don’t have time to do) because it had not occurred to them that they were not the only person asking me to do it.

      Once I pointed out that there is never going to be a time that I have the capacity to input this info for 7 year groups, it was like a lightbulb moment, and they realised ‘oh, everyone’s asking her to do it, that’s not on’.

      Is it possible that a similarly worded ‘I don’t have the capacity to input this information for x many managers’ would make it clear that you’re not just being difficult, and it is unreasonable?

    8. ronda*

      Is it an option to send out the report with a list of the areas that did not provide the info by the dead line? (instead of the info put in “data not submitted” for example)

      Do that, and if people actually care about this report, they will get held to meeting the deadline in the future.

      as always, this depends on what is doable at your company.

  5. Lorelei*

    So, earlier this week, I had a coworker pass out. I’m sitting at my desk, and the phone line starts going nuts. My own coworker, Emily, gets huffy and says she doesn’t know why she keeps calling here. Then gets up and starts propping open doors. Since we get deliveries/repairs/etc through the front doors, this doesn’t raise any flags for me. However, I look questioningly at Lane and she mouths “Kirk’s wife”. This doesn’t clarify anything for me as Kirk works here. And Emily is……unpleasant.

    Anyway, I keep on working. A little while later a group of (what turned out to be) paramedics walk in. Again, not so surprising as we routinely have our first aid kits tests, smoke alarms checked, etc. And the direction they were headed was the coworker who is in charge of all that. They walk back out. THEN, they come in with a stretcher. At this point, I’m alarmed. Nobody has mentioned anything about anyone needing an ambulance.

    That’s when I see Kirk, unconscious, go by my desk. He was so pale. And covered in sweat. (Personally, I’d have liked a warning as the LAST time I saw an unconscious man on a stretcher was the night my dad died.)

    Luckily for Kirk, Luke was talking to him when it all went down. So he contacted Kirk’s wife told her what was going on and got a list of medications. She was over an hour away so he offered to send an Uber to get her. She declined for various reasons. Luke told his boss and grandboss and offered to go with Kirk. They both said no since his wife was on her way. (This I found out later.)

    No email was sent. Most of the staff didn’t even know. I mean, I only knew because the stretcher went right by me. Nobody heard anything until Luke sent an email late in the day with an update form Kirk’s wife. Which, honestly, thank God for Luke.

    Turns out, this was Kirk’s first time in a hospital. We sent a 60 year old man to the hospital. Alone. Where he had to wait a few hours for his wife to show up. And management didn’t even think to send an email. I feel so sick and nauseated about all of this. This just isn’t how you treat people.

    1. anon for this*

      To be honest, I’d rather go by myself to the hospital than have a coworker come. It’d make it way, way worse for me to have a coworker go with me and wait with me. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

        1. Specialk9*

          Agreed too. Medical privacy is important.

          But also, it sounds like Lorelei had a flashback of their father dying, which is hugely upsetting. I understand feeling upset about a sick co-worker, and then extra extra upset by the parallel to something traumatic. Sounds like a lot to process.

          So I hope for Kirk to get better, the company to be more careful of private info, and for Loralei to get some extra TLC today.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        Same. If there were a coworker who was close enough to me to accompany me to the hospital, that would be okay. But if there isn’t, I don’t want some random person tagging along to witness my medical drama. And a lot of people would consider a “Kirk went to the hospital” email to be gossipy.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          Yeah, the email would be crossing the line. At most what you do is pull a group of key people in (usually managers) explain at a high level what has happened (no details) and then the managers can either inform people as needed or respond to questions.

          I’d be pissed if I were Kirk and a company wide email went out.

          As for a coworker accompanying an injured/sick person. I don’t think I’d opt for a solo trip if I were Kirk.

      3. Nita*

        Yeah, I’d be mortified if a coworker was sent to the hospital with me! If they just notified my family (none of whom can get here in under an hour) I’d think they did the exact right thing. It’s not like a coworker has any authorization to make medical decisions for me, or any knowledge of my medical history! The only thing they might do is make sure I don’t get shuttled into a corner and forgotten in the ER, but still, just too much awkwardness.

        1. Observer*

          That ONE thing could literally make a difference between surviving and not. And the chances that it would have that effect are all too high.

      4. soon 2be former fed*

        Don’t know if you have ever been admitted via emergency . If you cannot speak, it is best to have someone who can navigate questions on your behalf. Depending on the seriousness of the reason for going to the ER (not just a regular hospital admission). going alone could be very unwise.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Sure, but I don’t want that to be my coworker. I’d rather they called my spouse. And we know Kirk’s wife was available via phone.

          1. Kuododi*

            Actually, I went through a period of about six months some time ago where DH and I were having to do the commuter marriage. He had to go ahead and start his new job and I stayed behind to get the house on the market. All that to say….DH was about three states away in case of a work emergency. I sat down with a good friend and asked if this person would be willing to be me “in case of emergency person.”. We discussed all the extra implications of that request, they thought about it and we’re willing to follow through on their part. We signed all the appropriate documents with HR etc, I got my friend a detailed list of meds, allergies, general medical summary and the like. Fortunately, it was never necessary to ring the bell and for my friend to have to actually step up and call 911 on my behalf.

          2. Observer*

            It doesn’t help. The hospital staff will absolutely NOT call the wife.

            In most cases if someone is not there, G-d help you because no one else will. I’m not kidding.

        2. designbot*

          Yeah, I’ve been admitted via the ER a couple of times. The first time I was unconscious, and they cut my clothes off. Nope, I’ll do without a coworker being around for that, thanks. They wouldn’t be able to answer the pertinent questions anyway—doctors, medical history, insurance, my wishes—so what could would that do?

        3. anon for this*

          A coworker will not know anything about my medical conditions or health. The best thing they could do is call my emergency contact we all have to list in our employee profiles. There’s really no need for a coworker to go with me. If I couldn’t speak, the only questions they might be able to answer is what happened at work, but nothing else. They don’t have power to make medical decisions or give info they don’t know to the hospital, and it’s none of their business anyway.

        4. Seriously?*

          I think it depends on what state he was in. If I am able to talk, I don’t want my coworker with me in the hospital. If I am completely unconscious, then it would be better if they were there to tell the doctor what happened.

        5. Just Another Analyst*

          I’d be mortified about putting a coworker in the position to navigate questions on my behalf! That is such a huge responsibility, not to mention it crosses a personal/professional boundary that I would be extremely uncomfortable with. Obviously if someone witnesses the incident then they should explain to the paramedics what happened, but a coworker’s obligations should end there. Let the hospital get in touch with emergency contacts, that’s what they are there for.

            1. Opting for the Sidelines*

              Who then pass on that info to the hospital. There is a chain of care.

        6. Plague of frogs*

          No decent medical person will be sharing any sort of medical information with some random person who came with you to the hospital, or asking that person anything.

          I visited a friend in the hospital and she died while I was there. (No, I was not standing on the oxygen tube, if that’s where your mind just went). The nurses shooed me out of the room, then came out and asked me if I was family. When I said no, there was a long awkward pause where I realized that she had died but they couldn’t tell me. Then they bought me some tea and gave me a hug.

      5. Is pumpkin a vegetable?*

        I passed out at work a few years ago, and went to the hospital by myself. I would have felt super awkward with one of my co-workers in the ambulance with me, even though we are all actually quite close.

      6. Artemesia*

        I feel the same way. If it were a close friend, I’d go along, but otherwise I’d respect their privacy.

      7. Kathy*

        My mother had a massive heart attack at work in 2010. She yelled out call an ambulance and then her heart stopped and she fell over. Her coworkers called 911 and then started CPR. The ambulance came and continued to shock her before loading her into an ambulance. A rep from HR who worked in the same part of the building mom did came with her to the hospital. She called my step dad and myself when she was on the way so we knew what had happened.
        We were grateful for her help and for her being there. She was able to relay info to the resuscitation team and the EMTs while we were on route.
        Mom survived, but the skin of her teeth, but was never able to return to work again as her body had so much damage from the heart attack. She had another massive heart attack in 2015 and passed in 2016 from heart failure.
        I’m beyond grateful for all of her coworkers that sprung into action and helped her, I think without them we would have lost her. They were nominated and won awards with the Red Cross for their bravery and help with Mom. http://firstaidottawa.blogspot.com/2010/10/did-you-know-todays-lifesavers.html

        Sometimes having a coworker go with you can be the best thing in a bad situation.

      8. Observer*

        I hear how you feel, but it was utterly irresponsible for the company to do this. People who show up at the hospital unaccompanied have MAJORLY poorer outcomes, as in are more likely to die, longer times to triage etc.

    2. 123456789101112 do do do*

      That’s really hard. Maybe they felt like it would be a violation of his privacy to share a medical issue with everybody? One of the bosses should have gone, or let Luke go.

    3. Forking Great Username*

      OMG how awful. Maybe send him a card or something so he knows that someone at works actually gives a crap?

    4. Dorothy Zbornak*

      I think it would have been good to send someone with Kirk, but were you expecting an office-wide email about the incident after it happened? An update email saying “Kirk is doing well” makes sense to me (so the people who hadn’t heard about it might need to ask others about what happened), but not an email saying “this thing happened.” At least, we’ve never received anything like that in other offices.

      1. Dorothy Zbornak*

        I should say, it would have been good to send someone with Kirk if they thought he might want that.

          1. DArcy*

            No, sending someone with him would have been a terrible idea. Fortunately, the paramedics would have shut that down *hard* if you tried.

            “No, you cannot come in the ambulance unless you are a family member or a conscious patient requests you. No, we will not tell you which hospital we are going to unless you are a family member or designated medical decision maker. No, you may not follow the ambulance.”

            1. Hobbert*

              I’m an EMT and we routinely allow a friend/coworker to come along if they seem like a reasonable person. We’ll have them ride up front and we’ll direct them to the registration desk while we transfer the patient in the ER room but it’s not unusual at all. I actually make a point of letting friends/coworkers on scene know what ER we’re going to so they can update family, drop off the patient’s stuff, or what have you. And we certainly can’t tell them not to follow us. If I’m about to run lights and siren to the hospital, I’ll tell them to obey all traffic laws and expect to not keep up with me, but that’s it. I’ve worked in EMS for 20 years and it would be unusual to refuse to tell people what hospital I’m going to or demand that they not follow me.

              1. DArcy*

                We were explicitly trained that unless we had a conscious patient consenting, no one but family or designated health care proxy should be informed of destination much less allowed to ride with us. Letting any random coworker or bystander have that information constitutes a HIPAA violation on our part since it is letting an unauthorized party in on healthcare information that they have no right to.

        2. Bagpuss*

          it sounds as though they spoke to his wife, presumably she could have said if she thought they should send someone with him. Possibly, they even had that conversation with her.

      2. Dorothy Zbornak*

        Although now that I think about it, maybe no email at all and leave it to people to ask their manager “hey, is Kirk doing okay?”

    5. Temperance*

      I actually think it’s a good thing that they didn’t send an email to the entire company? I would have been mortified if everyone knew I got sick like that, TBH.

      1. Anonym*

        I would feel my privacy had been seriously violated if my colleagues were informed of anything medical without my permission. You do NOT have a right to know. Your being concerned is in no way comparable to his right to privacy.

      2. anon for this*

        Yeah, wanting an email makes it about his coworkers at that point, not about Kirk.

        I really don’t think the company did anything wrong in this situation. They’re respecting Kirk’s privacy during a hard time.

    6. Construction Safety*

      That’s pretty cold all the way around.

      The reality is that a lot of folks don’t know what to do in an emergency.

      1. soon 2be former fed*

        THIS. There should be an official policy created and disseminated that spells out exactly what is to happen in case of an emergency transport to the hospital.

    7. Waiting for the Sun*

      Best wishes to Kirk! Puzzled about Emily ‘s role, though. Was she opening doors to let the paramedics in in but didn’t bother to mention why, ie, that a coworker had a medical emergency?

      1. HashtagUsername*

        I’m also confused about Emily’s role in this. Was she opening the doors for the paramedics but was annoyed about having to do it? Was she not supposed to tell people that the paramedics were on their way?

      2. DArcy*

        That is exactly what she SHOULD do. Open the doors for the medics and actively minimize the number of people who are tempted to get in the way by playing looky-loo.

    8. Cousin Itt*

      They should have let Luke go with him, but I don’t think it’s that weird that an email wasn’t sent/you weren’t informed. Some people won’t want their medical problems broadcast to the whole company.

      A similar thing happened at my work and the only way we found out was through gossip/witnessing it/the person speaking about it afterwards.

      1. Observer*

        I agree – they should have let Luke go. But not sending the email was a reasonable thing to do.

    9. EditorInChief*

      As long as the EMS/hospital had contact with the ill employee’s wife to ask questions about his medications, health conditions, and keep her updated, there was no reason for another employee to have to go. What would that employee have done there? And as for an email that’s an invasion of Kirk’s privacy (not necessarily in a legal sense) to broadcast to the office that he had a medical episode.

      1. Susan Sto Helit*

        Agreed. And, while I get that it may have been upsetting to see a colleague go past on a stretcher, it’s not about you at that point – it’s about your sick colleague. The company wants to a) get him to hospital safely and b) protect his privacy as far as possible, and everything else comes second to that.

        1. Admin of Sys*

          Yes, this! I’ve been in offices where folks got pulled out by emt, and information was passed word of mouth, but an email would have been in the weird hipaa ‘maybe not okay to share’ space.
          And if this ever happened to me, I really wouldn’t have wanted a boss or coworker to come with me to the hospital. They don’t have any ability to make decisions for / with me, and I generally don’t want them to know what’s going on with my health, unless I choose to inform them. And for that matter, once I get to the hospital, the staff isn’t allowed to tell them anything anyway, because of privacy laws.
          The fact that they offered an uber ride for the wide is exemplary and all the other actions seem correct imo.

          1. Seriously?*

            HIPPA doesn’t apply in this case. But I agree that I would not want an email sent out to my coworkers telling them that I passed out.

        2. Courageous cat*

          Agreed 100%. I think it’s also strange to feel entitled to a warning about it, even though I understand the reasoning.

          1. Plague of frogs*

            Yeah. All I could picture was the EMTs ringing a bell like lepers used to do.

        3. DataGirl*

          Just need to speak up and let you know you have the best name ever. Wish I could add a photo I have a tattoo of Susan.

      2. soon 2be former fed*

        An email presents the facts and cuts down on gossip (Kirk had a drug overdose!). Emergency medical transport if not an everyday event, I would hope.

        An ER is a horrible place when you are on that gurney, EMS people are doing a job. The reason is not only to keep the company informed of what’s going on (his illness could have been workplace related), but is also just a human courtesy. I would want a non-medical person with me.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          The company isn’t likely to know if it was a drug overdose, stroke, dehydration, exhaustion, etc. So it would just be inviting Kirk’s coworkers who didn’t know about the gurney to join the speculation.

          1. Just Jess*

            Soon 2be FF is saying the gossip would be that Kirk had a drug overdose if the company doesn’t say anything, rather than the company would send “OD” out as a reason via email. I mean, wow…

            But I still disagree, an email should not be sent. Perhaps, send an email without identifying the employee and say “Emergency personnel were onsite today in order to treat and take an employee to the hospital. This is believed to be an isolated incident. There are no known hazardous situations in the office that would affect other employees.”

        2. Seriously?*

          His coworkers do not have a right to his medical information so sending someone to “keep the company informed” is way out of line. It is not a curtesy, it is an invasion of privacy. And if people jump to assuming he had an overdose, the company has larger problems that need to be rooted out.

          I have been taken to the hospital from work before. I would not want a coworker or supervisor to be there.

        3. anon for this*

          I honestly think it’s more of a problem if Kirk’s coworkers immediately jump to drug overdose and not, say, a heart attack or a stroke or heat exhaustion or something more medically common.

      3. Middle School Teacher*

        Personally I would be mortified if an email was sent out about me. Depending on the coworker, I would fine with that.

      4. blackcat*

        Not a typical story, but here’s one reason: I went to the hospital with a friend who had gotten a concussion. She wasn’t lucid. At one point, a resident came in and started to perform a pelvic exam without explaining why or even attempting to get consent. I asked VERY LOUDLY what purpose a pelvic exam served in treating a head injury. Resident mumbled, and two nurses appeared and shoed her out. I was horrified. After that experience, I want someone with me in an ER, even if its a bit awkward.

        2. Observer*

          This is actually a lot more typical than you think – not necessarily the pelvic exam per se, but just inappropriate / mistaken things.

      5. LCL*

        No no no. If an employee falls out at work someone from work goes with them. Their manager, or someone else instead if they request it. I’ve taken someone to the ER. Your role is to reassure them if they want it, and be an information source for the hospital, and for the employee’s family. Not medical information, but things like when they were brought in, where they are now, where their things are, etc.

        1. DArcy*

          The company can send a supervisor or manager along to start handling worker’s comp paperwork and such — this is one of my responsibilities if one of our bike officers is injured on duty — but they are officially there for the company, not the patient, and they have zero access to patient information.

    10. Caratys*

      I’m sorry that you had to witness that, it sounds very unpleasant. However, I don’t think your management did anything wrong in not sharing this with the wider staff – it’s Kirk’s medical situation, that’s his private business.

      I hope Kirk is recovering well.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I agree with this. And Kirk may not have had the wherewithal to determine if he’d be find going alone or needed a coworker. When you are dealing with an emergency situation there is not time to sit down and send a company wide email.

        I thought it a little odd that the poster was concerned about the company’s actions seeming cold when her own statement about how she’d like a warning before seeing someone on a stretcher came off as cold as well.

        1. The Other Dawn*

          I agree. The EMTs need to get Kirk out the door, into the ambulance and to the hospital. They don’t have time to warn people, or even think about warning people, that a stretcher is coming through. And if they do need to warn people, it’s so people will clear the path to the door not because someone might possibly get upset about seeing a stretcher.

          I also don’t see anything particularly outrageous about someone not going to the hospital with him. I mean, sure, they could have let someone go and that person could stay out in the waiting room, but it’s not as if they will be able to help with family history, medications Kirk is taking, etc. All they can do is wait there in case there’s any word before his wife gets there. And I doubt that if there was any word, the doctors wouldn’t talk to a coworker about it.

    11. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

      I don’t know… It sounds like they handled it appropriately to me. If I fainted in the office, I wouldn’t want everyone knowing about it right away, or coming over to ask how I was etc. I’d just like to be quietly removed without sharing any details to anyone. And I 100% wouldn’t want any co-workers to come with me in the ambulance.

      2. soon 2be former fed*

        I would want someone to come with me. These events don’t happen a lot and people will talk, you can’t stop that.

      3. Perse's Mom*

        Yes! I only work closely with a few people in my office. If an office-wide email went out announcing I’d been rushed to the hospital, I’d be furious! Anyone affected by my absence should be notified so they can make sure my work is covered, but that’s it. I don’t need or want people I’ve seen once in the hallway in passing emailing me or approaching me later when I’ve recovered to ask how I am.

      4. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

        I have fainted at the office (twice, actually) although I never had to go to the hospital. I am very glad that we did not send any communication to the office at large, because it would have turned the whole thing into a larger issue than it needed to be. Someone called HR to let them know so that they could document the event, and my sister works downstairs from me, so someone called her (and she was appropriately nonchalant, considering my years-long history of syncope). It’s not really anyone else’s business that the paramedics needed to check me out on either occasion.

        I think anyone in the vicinity can be told “we have paramedics coming due to a medical emergency” but overall broadcast of a personal medical situation is not appropriate, IMO. The people who need to know will know.

    12. Kittymommy*

      Yeah, I wouldn’t want anyone to go with me, most certainly a co-worker. And I think that the company not sending an email is likely them trying to respectful of his privacy. I mean it would have been nice if they had informed people who literally saw him get rolled by them what was happening (I even can agree that they should have) unless the other staff were right there when it happened, it’s really none of their business.

    13. Lorelei*

      In the past when people have had medical emergencies, there’s been a quick “So and so went to the hospital we’ll update when he have more news.” And someone has ALWAYS gone with them. That’s how it’s handled here. So the fact that it wasn’t with him is unnerving. Especially since he’s considered annoying by most of the office.

      1. Thursday Next*

        That adds a wrinkle, if it seems as though the reason he was left unaccompanied was that he’s not well-liked. I’d default to sending someone, particularly if the coworker had lost consciousness. That person could leave once the emergency contact showed up.

        (Maybe Kirk has been working too hard, at so many different jobs? Or maybe he’s still looking for the Easter eggs in the town square? Luke always comes through for him—don’t let your head be turned by Christopher!)

      2. Just Jess*

        *Record scratch*
        What? This is a whole different story if there was a protocol breach and office politics.
        …Wait, what?!
        Also, what’s going on that there are often employee medical emergencies onsite? I know that may not be as uncommon as it sounds, but now I’m curious about that as well.

        1. Lorelei*

          I was trying to make it as succinct as possible because it was already quite long. And in an effort to make it as short as possible I cut out stuff that I thought was common knowledge…………….because it’s common knowledge to *me*. (Funny how multitasking doesn’t always work in your favor.)

          In the past, it’s just been trips to urgent care. Somebody broke a hand. Someone else ripped their leg up. Well. Someone did have a heart attack – but that was before my time. So I only how that was handled because that came up when there was conversations about this. (It was handled totally differently.)

          And even medical emergencies that have happened offsite. There’s been a quick “so and so went into the hospital/ICU/etc. We’ll let everyone know when they’ve gone home/there’s an update.” It’s never been a drawn out email full of detail.

          1. Stardust*

            I figured something like this but i honestly still don’t see the purpose of such an email, like, why does everyone need to be informed of this happening? i think it’s reasonable to verbally inform people who saw the original incident or were involved in any way but what is such an email to someone who either didn’t know anything happened at all or who isn’t close to the injured party? [and i’d assume that if someone IS close to the injured party they’ll hear about it and try to find out more anyway]

            1. Observer*

              I hear that. But it IS disturbing that it was handled so differently for this one person who is not well liked.

          2. Caratys*

            What’s the point of this email? Why do you need to know? I’d be furious if my employer circulated that information without my consent! Nowhere I’ve ever worked would consider that an appropriate thing to do!

            1. smoke tree*

              I work in a small office in a small town and it’s definitely the norm to share this kind of personal information, to the point that you have to specify if you don’t want the information disseminated and a sympathy card sent. This applies to accidents, illness, illness in the family, you name it.

    14. Safetykats*

      Our company has a policy that a manager accompanies any employee who needs medical attention until a family member can be present, or until the person is admitted to the hospital. I’m honestly not sure what we do in the case where it would take days for a family member to show up – and I guess I should find out!

      While it’s normal for a manager to eventually and discretely communicate some information to people who work directly with the affected employee, it would be a violation of their medical privacy to send out an email or otherwise generally announce that they had been transported. So I would never expect that, and in fact would be really concerned if it did happen.

      1. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

        I don’t see how it could possibly be a violation of medical privacy to email that someone had been transported to the hospital? I mean, people could see paramedics come in, and take away Kirk. You don’t need to know or share anything about the specific medical situation of the employee to say “hey, we know this thing happened, wanted to let you know that we’re taking care of it and we’re all wishing Kirk the best”

        1. Just Jess*

          This is a weird argument though. You either saw the employee receiving medical treatment or you did not. If you did see the employee being transported to the hospital, then you don’t need a notification since you saw the treatment occurring. If you did not see the employee being transported, then the employer shouldn’t be identifying who it was. People are always going to talk and want more information than is ethical to provide. Let people work through it in their own ways.

      2. Friday*

        Second this. At places I’ve worked if someone has a medical emergency, the managers calmly touch base in person (never email) with everyone who may have seen or heard, sharing minimal details but stressing the important “so-and-so is going to be OK/getting good care/with family and loved ones” etc. depending on what they know and what’s OK to share.

    15. Not Just An Admin*

      I can understand someone going with him, but maybe Kirk said he didn’t want anyone to go.

      I also TOTALLY understand not sending the email until after the fact. First, if it was sent out while EMS was there, and a crowd gathered, that would have made their work harder. Second, it could have caused a lot of panic, because so little would be known at that time. Better to send once there’s knowledge of Kirk’s actual condition.

      Some of what the medical professionals have to do can seem cruel, but there are reasons for a lot of it.

      I hope Kirk’s doing ok now!

    16. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

      I’m baffled at how many people on this thread are like “it’s none of anyone’s business!” If a person collapses and goes to the hospital in my workplace, I want it acknowledged! It would be SO WEIRD for it to just happen and the company says nothing. It doesn’t take much! An email that says: “Hello, as some of you may already know, Kirk went to the hospital an hour ago. We’re not quite sure what happened, but we’re ensuring he’s safe and we’ll let you know once we get a thumbs-up that everything is fine.”

      (I had a coworker collapse at work once, and it was a very weird thing, and the company handled it well, by calling an ambulance and sending a co-worker, who he was good friends with, with him. I don’t think it was egregious to not send anyone, since they were able to consult with his wife and it’s fine if she said “he’ll be OK, I’ll meet up with him later, you don’t need to send someone with him” but in a vacuum, if they hadn’t been able to get ahold of his wife, they definitely should have sent someone.)

      IDK, maybe I just tend to like my coworkers more than y’all, but I can’t imagine not caring when a coworker goes to the hospital from the office. Was there an accident? Is something unsafe? Will this person be OK? Even just a minor update via email from the office is better than radio silence. It’s not weird to care whether or not your coworker is alive or not!

      1. soon 2be former fed*

        THIS…the commentariat here can be a bit isolationist sometimes. There may be coworkers who actually care about Kirk.

        1. Kittymommy*

          I don’t think that believing my company should respect privacy and not send it an email means I don’t care about my co-workers it that I assume they don’t care about me. That’s a pretty big leap. (And honestly kind of insulting.)

          1. Admin of Sys*

            Agreed! If I was Kirk, I’d want my company to wait for my direction in what to share and with whom. I certainly wouldn’t want a company-wide announcement that I was carried out by emt but that I was now recovering. At most, a private word with the folks that witnessed it might be appropriate, and passing a ‘kirk is getting better, sign a get well card for him’ around.

          2. Specialk9*

            I think we actually think that Kirk’s medical privacy is worthy of respect, and think that is more important than people who just want to know. It’s a heck of a lot more traumatic for Kirk than for curious co-workers.

            It’s like that visual of a bullseye, for people with serious medical problems where one is not allowed to “dump in” to the patient, only “dump out”. So Kirk and his rights and needs gets taken care of before anybody else. Then his family. Then his friends. Then his co-workers. Etc.

            Expecting a breach of Kirk’s medical privacy (inner ring) to reassure someone on the far outer ring isn’t how it should go.

            2. Specialk9*

              Ring Theory:
              Draw a circle. This is the center ring. In it, put the name of the person at the center of the current trauma. For Katie’s aneurysm, that’s Katie. Now draw a larger circle around the first one. In that ring put the name of the person next closest to the trauma. In the case of Katie’s aneurysm, that was Katie’s husband, Pat. Repeat the process as many times as you need to. In each larger ring put the next closest people. Parents and children before more distant relatives. Intimate friends in smaller rings, less intimate friends in larger ones. When you are done you have a Kvetching Order. One of Susan’s patients found it useful to tape it to her refrigerator.

              Here are the rules. The person in the center ring can say anything she wants to anyone, anywhere. She can kvetch and complain and whine and moan and curse the heavens and say, “Life is unfair” and “Why me?” That’s the one payoff for being in the center ring.

              Everyone else can say those things too, but only to people in larger rings.

              When you are talking to a person in a ring smaller than yours, someone closer to the center of the crisis, the goal is to help. Listening is often more helpful than talking. But if you’re going to open your mouth, ask yourself if what you are about to say is likely to provide comfort and support. If it isn’t, don’t say it. Don’t, for example, give advice. People who are suffering from trauma don’t need advice. They need comfort and support. So say, “I’m sorry” or “This must really be hard for you” or “Can I bring you a pot roast?” Don’t say, “You should hear what happened to me” or “Here’s what I would do if I were you.” And don’t say, “This is really bringing me down.”

              If you want to scream or cry or complain, if you want to tell someone how shocked you are or how icky you feel, or whine about how it reminds you of all the terrible things that have happened to you lately, that’s fine. It’s a perfectly normal response. Just do it to someone in a bigger ring.

              Comfort IN, dump OUT.

        2. Anonym*

          And they can wait until Kirk decides he wants to share something with them. If they care about him, they should care about his privacy and his wishes.

        3. Perse's Mom*

          Okay, but are those people who actually know him and are close to him? Or the much more common but vague ‘he seemed nice, I hope he’s okay’ sort of way? Because the former probably has other ways to contact him and/or his wife to express their concerns/support, and the latter… don’t have any right to any info about his condition.

        4. Seriously?*

          A medical emergency can be intensely personal. I don’t necessarily want my coworkers to know about my medical history or list of medications. I have been taken to the hospital from work before and did not want my coworkers there. I was embarrassed, exhausted and confused. I did not want them to see me like that.

        5. DArcy*

          I’m not being “isolationist”, I’m being a trained healthcare professional. You *do not* spread information about a medical emergency outside of the absolute minimum people who NEED to know about it, and you absolutely *do not* send a coworker for “emotional support”.

          (Fortunately, your “emotional support” coworker will not be permitted access to the patient at any point, unless the patient is conscious and consents to their presence. We work hard to limit the harm you people can do with your well meaning but utterly unprofessional ideas!)

      2. Lily Rowan*

        I think it depends on how big the office is. Is an “all-staff” email going to 25 people who presumably know Kirk at least somewhat, or is it 300 people who may have no clue that anything happened at all.

        1. Queen of the File*

          I agree here. We have ambulance calls 1-2 times a month because very large office. Most people only personally know maybe 5% of the staff of the company so rather than setting nerves at ease it would really stress everyone out if they got an email after every medical emergency.

      3. McWhadden*

        Most people in the office didn’t know. So an email would be informing them for the first time, which is just wrong.

        And I do sympathize. I have a co-worker who has been very very sick (it was visually clear the few times she was in and was out a lot) and I was worried about her but no one was saying anything. But you know what? My worries aren’t the point. It’s what she’s comfortable sharing. Caring about them doesn’t mean you or I are entitled to know their business.

      4. DaniCalifornia*

        Well from Lorelei’s comments it seems she and her coworkers find him annoying. I hope that didn’t influence anyone not going with him.

        1. Lorelei*

          For the record – I actually don’t find him annoying. From my previous comment, that’s the consensus among most of the office.

      5. Caratys*

        Meanwhile, I’m baffled by how many people think sharing personal medical information with people who have no need to know it is acceptable! And equating respecting someone’s privacy with not caring about them! It’s really weird and seems like people are just being nosy and rude to me. I care about my coworkers, which is WHY I want to respect their privacy. To me, sharing that into isn’t caring, it’s gossip.

      7. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

        It would *not* be normal for a company to send out company-wide email about an employee’s onsite or offsite medical emergency. Doesn’t matter where the emergency occurred. A sophisticated employer would not do this. Employers should respect personal privacy, especially with respect to medical issues. It would be inappropriate for an employer to email all employees about someone’s medical issue in this circumstance. It has nothing to do with the level of concern or care of the co-workers and company, and everything to do with privacy and discretion. Sheesh.

      8. dawbs*

        But stuff is complicated.

        I was taken by safety officers (we had our own ems) to the hospital from work bbecause of complicationsiwas miscarrying (bury the lede here, it was fine; shes 7 now).
        Because of distance, family to help took the an hour.

        There were worried Co workers- and even more who were blissfully unaware i was even off sick. All of them (except my boss) were unaware i was pregnant.

        I’m not isolationist, but, really, there was no news to share (I spent 12 hours in the er), and what there was wasn’t shareable.

        This is no win, I know, but I’d err on the side of letting people control their own medical information.

    17. OtterB*

      It was a different situation, but my husband had a serious fall at work last year. Two of his coworkers went with him in the ambulance and stayed at the ER until I got there, and we were both grateful.

      We spent more than our share of time in hospitals last year, and I’m in favor of someone going with you. Maybe you don’t need any help and it’s just waiting around – but sometimes you need someone to run interference for you when you don’t feel well enough to do it for yourself.

    18. anon24*

      EMT here. I don’t necessarily think they did anything wrong. Not telling anyone in the moment except those who needed to know kept a crowd from forming, which never helps us do our jobs. The fact that they called his wife for a med list is amazing and super helpful. Offering the Uber for her was very sweet too.
      As for not sending a co-worker, that could go either way. Most places don’t send a co-worker along (I don’t remember if I’ve ever had a co-worker ride along in the ambulance but I’ve only picked up one unconscious person from a job). Kirk was unconscious so maybe they could have given more info but a co-worker legally can’t make any medical decisions anyway and there’s probably not any information they can give the hospital that they can’t give EMS on scene. As an EMT if I have family contact information I will pass that along to the hospital along with a “oh the family is in there way but it might be a bit”.
      A company sending an email is a grey area because Kirk might be extremely embarrassed and not want that information well known. The update coming straight from Kirk’s wife only says what Kirk and his wife are ok with being public.

    19. LilySparrow*

      Okay, I know this was upsetting, and I’m very sorry for your own loss, but I think maybe your raw feelings about losing your dad may be distorting your perspective on the situation. Somebody else was having a medical emergency, and you think they should have checked in with you before bringing the stretcher through, to make sure you were emotionally okay with seeing it? That is…a lack of proportion.

      I think you are centering yourself and your desire to satisfy your curiosity in a situation where you are actually, rightfully, on the outer margin.

      Kirk looked unconscious to you when he went by, but that doesn’t mean he was totally uncommunicative from the moment Luke decided to call the paramedics to the moment he went out the door.

      Kirk could have said he didn’t want Luke to come. (If Luke’s the type to go around making a story out of this, I can see why he would.)

      Kirk’s wife may have said she didn’t want anyone from work tagging along, and if Kirk was unresponsive, she is the one who gets to make that decision.

      Or maybe Kirk reacted to someone else’s situation in the past by expressing that he’d hate having a co-worker all up in his business like that, and one of the higher-ups remembered hearing it.

      I’ve had to be transported by ambulance before, and that’s bad enough. Having a co-worker *in the ambulance* would be a nightmare.

      Depending on the medical situation, the paramedics may have to get your clothes off. You might throw up or soil yourself. You might be intubated. You might start babbling out of your head. All of those things can happen even with events that turn out to be not life-threatening. You’re completely devoid of privacy or dignity.

      There are very, very few people I’d be willing to see me in that condition. No coworker I’ve ever had would qualify.

      You actually should *not* be privy to every detail of how it all went down, because his private medical information is none of your business. And if Luke is telling people about Kirk’s medical history, or his medication, then Luke is a gossip and a jerk.

      If the company deviated from its usual practice in dealing with this situation, the most likely explanation is that Kirk or his wife requested some privacy, and the management respected their wishes.

      You should, too.

      3. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

        I just don’t understand the conflation between an email with “Here’s a list of all of Kirk’s medical conditions, and all medication he’s taking” and one that says “we had a scary medical event happen at the office, and we wanted to let everyone know that it’s being handled, word is that Kirk is doing OK, and we all wish him the best.”

        1. Queen of the File*

          I think it partly depends on what we’re picturing in terms of our own offices (how big they are, how well we know each other, how likely it is that everyone saw the ambulance, etc.)

          In Kirk’s place I would really not want to return to work and have all my coworkers asking me what happened (or even acknowledging it! I passed out at work once and it was SO embarrassing). I think a brief in-person update is more appropriate if any coworkers who knew about the incident are concerned (“Kirk is going to be ok”), rather than an email.

        3. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

          It’s not about you and what you want. It’s about respecting Kirk’s privacy, which is more important than keeping you informed of his medical situation.

        4. LilySparrow*

          I’m not referring to the email. I’m referring to Luke giving a play-by-play to the OP, including the fact that they found & provided his list of medications, and that they discovered enough about his medical history to know whether or not he’d been in the hospital before for a similar condition.

          Obviously anyone who was assisting in the moment was privy to this for good reason. But why tell OP?

          Way, way too much information.

          If Luke and OP were personal friends of Kirk and cared deeply about his wellbeing, they’d be doing things like seeing if they can help by organizing meals for his wife, or asking if he wants visitors.

          Not gossiping about his medical history.

      5. Observer*

        Here’s the thing about having someone with you. That CAN absolutely be embarrassing as all get out, but it can also be the difference in saving your life. I’m not kidding. And, even when not THAT bad, it can mean that you don’t get “forgotten” about, or having some idiot give you the wrong medication, do an inappropriate of (for you) dangerous procedure, etc.

    20. McWhadden*

      If most of the staff didn’t know it was the right thing to do to not inform them. Why inform them of a medical situation? And they can’t say they’ll let everyone know when they have been told he’s OK. They don’t know that he ever will be.

      They should have given some info to people who witnessed it, though.

      Although I agree with others that I would hate having a co-worker with me at the hospital, I also think they should have allowed Luke to go. Since my later embarrassment over it would be trumped by any help he could give in the moment. But since Luke is sharing all of this information with people he may not be the most discrete person to go, anyway.

      1. Lorelei*

        Luke actually didn’t share this information with everyone. It was pieced together from different conversations of people who witnessed different parts of it.

    21. KR*

      I’ve passed out twice at work. No one went with me and I liked it that way. And I didn’t want anyone getting info on what happened unless they needed to know because it’s my personal medical data. I think it was upsetting for you to see your coworker in that condition but it was most likely more upsetting for Kirk and his wife. Wish him well, maybe send a card, and other than that nothing more to be done.

    22. Thlayli*

      I don’t think they should have sent round an email as ta nobody’s business. But absolutely someone should have gone with him and waited till the wife got there.

    23. LGC*

      I hope Kirk is okay! That’s really worrisome and I hope he’s recovering well.

      Anyway. So, I work for a vocational rehab center. (Think of Goodwill and you get a vague idea.) My site has roughly 100 employees (75 clients, 25 direct hires) plus staff plus a high school vocational program. Our employees have varying disabilities and challenges, both physical and mental.

      That is a VERY long way of saying that we’ve had quite a few ambulance calls in my time here.

      Basically, what we’ve done in those instances is try to respect the ill employee’s privacy by not making any huge announcements about it. We often do send a counselor or senior manager to the hospital if needed or requested. We won’t announce that – for example – Kirk was taken to the hospital at lunch to all team members, but we’ll let their direct supervisor (And their managers/counselors) know.

      I’ll also note – we’re unusual because we provide counseling services! For a direct hire or a staff member, we might not send anyone with them (of course, we’ll alert family because Percival doesn’t work here).

      And in my experience, it’s usually pretty mortifying for the ill team member to be sick enough to require emergency assistance. So it’s almost kinder to not say, “Hey, Kirk is in the hospital” to everyone because that might end up with an overwhelming response. I wouldn’t go to any lengths to hide it, but I wouldn’t make an announcement unless it was an extremely visible incident.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think the company could ask the person if they want someone with them but in this setting the wife said no which is a clear answer. Many companies have an in case of emergency contact. That contact person can be the one to answer the question if the person cannot speak for themselves.
        My family and I were out one night and saw a bicycle accident. The person hit his head HARD and was very definitely rattled. He said would accept a ride to the hospital, so we took him. We made sure that the staff had his name. (he was conscious but still pretty rattled). They took him to an exam room. We called his family. (No cells back then.)We waited in the waiting area just looking for a frantic face who might be their family member. We told the family member which room he was in.
        Since we were not in the room with him we did not have any access to any medical information. Once we located the family member and they indicated more family was coming, and we left. So there are ways of staying out of the stream of medical info. I have heard of examples where an employee followed the ambulance in their own car so as not to bother the emergency people. People can be available but politely remain off to one side.

        I don’t see the need for any email, though. People who work closest to the person can be told that “Jane is gone for the rest of the day.” I had a subordinate who needed to run home for a short bit because of a health problem, she said she would be back in a short bit. Her friend thought I had fired this person because I would not give details. I simply said, “It’s not my story to tell, she will tell you when she gets back if she wants.” I got glared at until the employee returned. Eh. What are you going to do. I assume that the employee who went home explained it to the glaring friend because I got a whole change in attitude. Glaring friend calmed right down, later she told me she thought I was a good boss. We never had a problem after that.
        A person can be helpful and still allow room for privacy. I suspect, OP, that a few people helped on this one and they were very effective so no other help was needed. I get that you are concerned because the employee is not that well liked, perhaps he actually preferred that things be handled this way. If it were me I would be wondering would I be treated in a similar manner? In some places I have worked I have had a friend who was close enough that we could exchange our wishes for what we wanted if we got sick. Perhaps you have a good friend at work who would speak up for you, and you would speak up for her if the need arose. The conversation usually started because of something like this. “Hey, Friend, if I get sick like that would you make sure that X is called and that the EMTs know Y about me?” This worked for us.

        1. LGC*

          I think that it’s Emily that’s the person that’s not liked, and the bosses didn’t go because they knew the next of kin was on their way, it seems. (The wife declined the Uber.) Unless I misread Lorelei.

          At any rate, I…totally agree with you, except for one small thing. With the example you gave about your report and her friend, I’d have said that the report had to leave but would be returning. Although the friend has more significant issues if her first response was “oh my God, Not So NewReader fired my friend Fergusina!”

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Am chuckling. I told her that her friend would be back. She was not sure if she could believe me or not. So I landed on, “you will see for yourself in short bit”. Sure enough, friend came back. I felt bad that she was upset but it felt good to know that she would be relieved in a hour or so.

    24. Triple Anon*

      I had a heart issue at work once. Probably atrial fibrillation. Anyway, it was weird at the time. I felt too light-headed to do much about it, and too embarrassed to tell anyone. I didn’t want all the attention – the “Omg are you ok??” people and the “You’re fine, stop complaining,” people. So I just waited it out and pretended to be working. At the end of the day, I felt slightly better so I went home. I only found out what it probably was when I told a doctor about it later. I think atrial fibrillation is pretty harmless, so it wasn’t a big deal. But if an ambulance had to come for me at work, I’d rather that it was pretty discreet and I wouldn’t want anyone to go to the hospital with me unless we were friends outside of work.

    25. soupmonger*

      For goodness sake, your management don’t have to tell their entire workplace that someone is being taken to hospital! There is such a thing as discretion. And many people would actively not enjoy a co-worker being dispatched to the hospital with them. It sounds as if your employer handled this fine – they called the ambulance, informed his wife, offered an Uber for her and got him to hospital. I honestly don’t know why you wrote in with this.

    26. Lorelei*

      A few quick things and then I’m done:

      My office just isn’t that big. Around 50 people. We all know each other. So having someone suddenly disappear, followed by radio silence is weird. Especially when it’s never been handled like that in the past. And there’s never been an email listing all the conditions – just that “Max is in the hospital. We hear he’s doing well and will let everyone know when he plans on being back. Meanwhile, Jackson will be stepping up to the role for anything urgent.” (I would never expect nor want to know the most intimate details of what happened. I just wanted to know that he was okay.)

      We don’t have individual teams. We’re all interconnected with one person doing one thing. If one person is suddenly gone ( and there’s practically no cross training so there’s no backup), and nobody knows, that can cause projects to pile up. Which, yes, is its own problem.

      I forget that my office is set up different. It’s not the stereotypical office where we all just sit in our cubes. There’s constant activity up and done the alleyways. As well as carts and handtrucks stacked high with equipment. When I said a warning about the paramedics, I didn’t mean for me and my feelings. (My God, I might be a little self absorbed but I’m not an ogre.) I meant because there could have been a serious problem if someone had decided that second to round the corner with a cart piled high and not known that paramedics were there and needed space to work. I would have used said warning to excuse myself.

      Kirk’s wife didn’t decided for anyone not to go, that was management. We can debate rather someone should have met the ambulance at the ER or not. Personally, when it’s happened with my mom I was glad someone was there to pass information along to me so I could step in without bothering the doctor. I realize not everyone will feel this way and that’s completely fine. But as his wife was over two hours away, as well as not in the office at the time, and he was unconscious if the doctors had any questions about what happened before he passed out nobody could answer them. I still feel as if someone should have gone for a stopgap measure. But, that’s me and my preference.

      1. frockbot*

        For what it’s worth, I agree with you from both sides. I would want a brief note acknowledging the potentially scary medical incident; AND if I was the one involved in the incident, I would prefer for folks to know about it before I came back so that I wouldn’t have to explain it to them. Everybody’s mileage obviously varies on this, but you’re not alone in being surprised that a coworker was wheeled out on a stretcher and nothing was said about it! (Which is to say, I would also be surprised, and concerned.)

      2. Specialk9*

        I don’t think you’re an ogre for connecting one person on a stretcher with a traumatic event in your life!

        I do think it’s impacting your emotions — the way you’re writing is the way I do when my stomach is churning with a big emotion. And the really big feelings inside are often tied to our personal traumas or issues. Which is SO NORMAL.

        It really is upsetting to see someone you know, pale and sweaty and unconscious on a stretcher! It’s ok if that felt like getting kicked in the stomach, given your personal trauma, and it’s ok to wish for a warning. (That’s literally what trigger warnings are about, giving us that split second to pull up the armor.)

        You are processing all that, and at the same time you’re also asking if your work is a jerk for not doing a specific action. Which is what people focused on. Instead we’re saying that actually the usual way is pretty awful, they should cut that shit out.

        But the “I’m processing something a bit hard that reminds me viscerally of something awful from my life” is totally normal, and I’m sorry you’re having to go through that. It sounds like it really sucks.

        I hope you get the chance to have a good cry, eat some chocolate, crank up the AC and wrap yourself in a fuzzy blanket, and snuggle with a person/pet/stuffed animal. Hugs across the internet.

      3. LGC*

        Okay, so – yeah, this drew a lot of responses. For what it’s worth (and I’m pretty sure you’re not going to see this), it did get pretty heated and a lot of people jumped to conclusions. And I’ll admit – I’m a little agitated by some of the responses you got.

        Anyway, a little bit above this comment I explained what my company usually does when we have emergency calls. From what it seems, this is actually close to standard – except for the additional twist that we’re also dealing with employees who receive counseling services from us so that might need to go in their case file, and I believe any ambulance call is a reportable incident for our records.

        Here’s my read on what happened with you, and although I d0n’t work in your environment, mine is somewhat similar:

        1a) Your bosses took a hands-off approach because as a lot of people (and myself) noted, a lot of people might not want everyone around them when they’re ill. Your bosses told Kirk’s wife, and by the time they were considering going to the hospital, they knew she was on her way.

        1b) Further, I presume the first responders were provided information at the scene and it would have been their job to relay it to the emergency room team. In that case, management showing up could have just added to the chaos and made things less efficient. (It sounds cold, but consider: The EMTs and paramedics are trained professionals.) Kirk had his wife aware of what was going on and on her way, and he was being treated by medical professionals. He might not have had people he knew around him in that moment he passed by you, but he was in good hands.

        2) I have…A LOT OF THOUGHTS about the fact that you would have appreciated a warning that a stretcher was coming through. But in the most succinct form: Kirk was really sick and there almost certainly wasn’t time for a heads-up. (Also, like…not gonna lie, Lorelei, this is actually something you guys have to account for – that there need to be clear exits for emergencies.)

        3) The silence seems unusual…but also, this all happened in a matter of hours, it seems like. They might not have had enough information to say anything. In emergency situations, they may not know until later whether the person will be okay, and that’s why the late update was sent out – that might have been the first point they had any conclusive information about how Kirk was doing.

        4) And even given the structure of your workspace, it seems as if you’re not really part of the direct workflow – you’re essentially just a bystander. I didn’t see anything that said your work directly crosses with Kirk’s, and you weren’t a witness to him collapsing. And this has bearing on your entire response – it sounds like you simply weren’t involved beyond witnessing Kirk go by and having to deal with Kirk’s wife calling Emily (although – dude, my condolences on having to see that, especially after losing your dad in what sounds like a similar fashion). To be honest, if you were one of my employees, I’d consider you pretty low priority in terms of who I’d inform, since you have no business need to know about Kirk’s whereabouts.

        And…you know, it’s tough. I’ll be honest, your OP and this post don’t make you look great, at least to me – they read as if you’re emphasizing your feelings about Kirk getting sick at work over Kirk actually being sick. (And to be clear, I think you genuinely do care about Kirk! It’s just the way you phrased it was clumsy.) But also…like, this sounds like your first (and hopefully last) time dealing with something like this. It’s a terrifying situation to witness, and if you don’t understand general protocol and why certain things are done, it can be really confusing.

    27. RedinSC*

      Oh, yeah, we have a policy that someone accompanies anyone who goes to the hospital or urgent care. For that reason, so no one is left there alone.

    28. Not a Mere Device*

      I once kept a new acquaintance company in an ambulance, and for a few hours in the emergency room–I happened to be with her, and asked her if she wanted me to come to the hospital with her. This was really random: someone I’d been chatting with at a convention and I decided to go get lunch, and she fell and injured her leg on the walk back. Since her entire family was at home, halfway around the world, I offered to go with her; it’s not what I had in mind for the afternoon, but it wasn’t what she’d had in mind either. (I suspect her logic was some combination of “Not a Mere Device” is part of the same loose community as I am” and that I would be someone to keep her company so she wouldn’t be sitting there staring at the walls for however long.)

      “How you treat people,” in my opinion, is you let them choose–I have a friend who doesn’t want anyone around if she’s unwell, not even her son or husband. That’s unusual, but someone like that really isn’t going to want her boss, or Jane from Accounting, sitting next to their hospital bed.

    29. R*

      As it happens, I’m 60 and when I collapsed at work a few months ago, I had never been to the hospital before. The difference is that I’m single and have no family so I’ve always taken care of myself. I like being independent. I was there for nearly a week but I told my workplace and friends that I wanted no visitors.

    30. DataGirl*

      as someone who has had health problems at work that resulted in paramedics being called (I was allowed to have a friend drive me to the hospital instead of taking an ambulance, once they saw my bp go down and determined it was most likely a panic attack, not heart attack)- I would be horrified to have an email go out about it. It was bad enough that people saw me as they walked by the lounge where I was being treated. Personal health issues, even if witnessed at work, are still personal and it would be improper of the company to share information about it.

    31. a1*

      Nobody heard anything until Luke sent an email late in the day with an update form Kirk’s wife. Which, honestly, thank God for Luke.

      So, an email *was* sent. This timing makes perfect sense to me. Spouse/family member contacts work when convenient for them and with info they are willing to share, and work passes it on. This is pretty normal to me.

  6. Foreign Octopus*

    This has been on my mind for a while and is a question for Alison.

    I’m in Spain so when I check the website I see the letters uploaded like so: early in the morning and then after 5pm, three more, which is great for me but it’s really bugging me because I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what time they’re uploaded in the US.

    Please help me!

    1. 123456789101112 do do do*

      Eastern time zone: the 5 short answers are up early (before 6am?), then 11 am, 12:30 pm, and 2 pm.

      2. Tort-ally HareBrained*

        I think the short answers go up around midnight EST as I can usually see them around 11 pm Central time. You can also check the Facebook time stamps :)

        1. AcademiaNut*

          Yes, midnight – they come up just as I go for lunch, or just as I get back, depending on daylight savings time.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m in EST.

      The short answers go up at midnight, the first standalone question (and this post) go up at 11am. The second standalone question (usually a link to another site or the podcast) is at 12:30pm. The final question gets posted at 2pm.

    3. Secretary*

      I notice that it’s usually one in the evening, and two or three in the morning. I see them pop up around 7 or 8 am; which means Alison is uploading them around 10 or 11 am. There’s some variation but that’s what I usually see. Sometimes there’s a longer follow up one around 12 or 1pm her time.
      Alison, am I getting that right?

        1. Blue Eagle*

          I always thought that Alison was uploading from the west coast so 9pm Pacific Time, then 8am Pacific Time, etc, etc.

          Uploading at midnight eastern time never made sense to me as folks in the eastern time zone are likely asleep and it is readers from either the west coast or Europe, etc who always get first chance at the short questions.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I’m on the east coast. Post go up at midnight, 11 a.m., 12:30 p.m., and 2 p.m. ET. Someone is going to be asleep no matter when I post.

            1. Foreign Octopus*

              Thank you (and everyone)! I really had no idea and it was bugging me, but the schedule is actually really great for me because it’s about 6am, 5pm, 7pm, and 8pm (more or less) in Spain, which means I have something to look forward to in the evening.

              1. Tau*

                Agreed about the schedule being great, from someone in your timezone. (Why are Spain and Germany in the same time zone? Central European Time makes no sense whatsoever!)

                1. Specialk9*

                  Because Europe is eentsy teensy?

                  (Sorry, everything in the US is utterly forked up these days, but at least we can brag that we have LOTS OF LAND!!! Ha ha ha ha {sob})

  7. Aldebaran*

    Question about how to network with a company overseas. I am an expat living and working in the US for the past 30 or so years. I am interested in eventually moving back to my country of origin to work and retire there to be closer to family.

    Purely by coincidence, I found out about an international company with HQ in my hometown in my home country. This company specializes in technical writing and documentation, which is an area I am interested in transitioning after a 15 plus year career in digital communications and administration in the US.

    I was wondering if folks can give some advice on (a) how to best make an overture with the company from overseas to express my interest in their work (b) how to broach that my skills might be a potential good fit with their operations (c) how to gracefully inquire about opportunities in their company (c) who best to target for communications. It is a small company with less than 100 staff and the CEO is an American who is also an alumnus of where I finished grad school in the US.

    I don’t have a timeline of planning to move back to my home country anytime soon but if the right opportunity were a possibility I would seriously consider moving back sooner rather than later.

    The company’s location in my hometown is a huge factor in my motivation in wanting to contact them.

    Thanks for any advice and tips!

    1. Safetykats*

      Does the company have a website? There is generally information on the website about how to enquire for employment opportunities. Some of the information in your post would be good for a cover letter, although I would leave out the part about knowing where the CEO went to grad school. In a company that small someone on there end will eventually figure that out from your resume.

      1. Aldebaran*

        Thanks! They do have a website with a careers section but none of the current openings are a good fit for me. I was thinking they may have an opening in the future and I could apply formally. I was thinking of how best to approach them even if there are no openings with an eye that one might be a possibility in the future.

        1. Specialk9*

          I tend to connect with people on LinkedIn. So you might rework your profile to emphasize the local parts (eg local high school, add your native language if not English, jobs you had in that area that you might have removed for brevity).

          Then just start building connections. Don’t try to sell to them, just connect.

    2. Thlayli*

      You can try two routes simultaneously – contact someone in the local office to you and contact someone in the local office in your hometown. My experience of these big international companies is that most people won’t know each other and won’t even necessarily know they have an office in the other country, let alone what are of expertise that office works in. So you can go through both channels simultaneously I would say.

      As for how to find a contact in the office to network with, sorry not a clue.

    3. Jessica*

      Gosh, I have really different advice than Safetykats and Thlayli, I hope others chime in so we get a consensus! I’d say you should reach out to the CEO directly if possible. If you would like an “introduction” you could maybe reach out to your alumni association for your university and see if they can put you in touch, but otherwise you can just write to the CEO. You already have two things in common: you both have lived in the US and your home country for several years, and you both went to the same school. I think you can write an e-mail based on those factors:
      Something like: “Hi! My name is X and I’m a digital communications specialist in the US, but originally from Country X. I’ve been considering relocating back to country X as well as transitioning to technical writing. As I researched employment opportunities I noticed that not only do you have experience moving from the US to country X, but that we also attended the same school. I’d love to be able to talk with you further about your experiences during this transition, what the employment field is like currently in Country X, and any other suggestions you have for me. Would you be willing to set up a time to talk on the phone/skype with me? Thanks, Aldebaran.” I think this would be enough to signal the CEO that you’re interested in a job, but also leave the door open for helpful advice in other ways…and people often like being recognized for their expertise.
      I’m giving this advice because I just applied for a teaching job at a community college. I didn’t even get a phone call but about a month after applying online I contacted the department chair directly and asked if I could talk with him more about the department’s needs both now and in the future. We ended up having a 90-minute conversation with two excellent outcomes: he is really interested in hiring me if a position opens up, and I understand much better what it takes to get hired there (basically all the current adjunct professors have to decline teaching a course before it could be offered to an outsider). Obviously, if you’re going to go through “unofficial” channels you have to be prepared for the chance that the CEO just doesn’t want to talk to you (and you can’t just demand a meeting) but it seems like an “informational interview” could be really helpful for you even if it doesn’t end in a job, so this is the perfect situation.

      1. Aldebaran*

        Thanks very much! Yes, this is excellent and makes a lot of sense. This is the type of outreach I had in mind but was having trouble defining or articulating it. Thank you for laying it out so logically

      2. Specialk9*

        Oh I overlooked the school connection with the CEO. It can’t really hurt to send that message and might work! Wouldn’t hold my breath, CEOs of big orgs tend to get a lot of that kind of request, but someone far from home may actually be glad for a little nostalgia. Worth the try for sure!

  8. Construction Safety*

    City of Atlanta rescinds offer on the day the education chief was to start. Link in reply.
    Of note:
    “decided to move in a different direction and review other options as it pertains to filling this role.”
    and
    “that the offer was contingent upon successful completion of a background check and a physical examination”

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Translation: “We decided to move in the direction of someone who could pass a background check.” My theory, anyway. (The link isn’t available yet.)

    2. McWhadden*

      Obviously a terrible practice to grant and rescind but more expected in local government jobs, where politics come into play.

      She had been a consultant, taught for Teach for America and seems to have been at least sort of involved with some charter school initiatives. TFA is pretty unpopular with union teachers (for good reasons and reasons I don’t agree with it’s a complicated issue.) She didn’t have any other direct education experience except her couple of years teaching. And might have been perceived to be sympathetic to charter schools.

      So, my guess is the union advocated for her dismissal.

    3. Julianne (also a teacher)*

      Was the candidate actually qualified to be a superintendent? If not, I wonder whether that came into play. My district just barreled through the hiring of an interim superintendent (who has zero qualifications) and the question of whether she would actually be approved by our state board of education was one that seemed to flummox the office of our idiot mayor.

      1. ronda*

        she was not being hired as superintendent. she was being hired on the mayor’s staff to work with stakeholder around improving education (including the school board and superintendent, I would think). Kind of an education Czar. This is the mayor that was elected last Nov, so has not been mayor terribly long yet. And improving education was one of her main platforms…. so I think mayor wants to do something.

        Canidate has a masters in public policy from harvard. seems like the right kind of education for this sort of thing to me….. but not much experience.

        1. Julianne (also a teacher)*

          My mistake re: titles, I hadn’t heard about this story until seeing this post, so I conflated the roles.

          Personally, I think experience matters as much as (and maybe even more than) education when it comes to education policy, and when the districts and cities where I’ve worked have brought in leaders and decision-makers who have little or no classroom experience, or little or no experience leading actual schools and teachers (as principals, instructional leaders, etc.), it’s often frustrating. It would be like hiring me to make healthcare policy; I’ve been to the doctor, but I don’t have the experience to make the best decisions. (Not a perfect analogy because I also have no education that would qualify me for that kind of job, but I hope my point comes through.)

    4. Boop*

      A physical examination? Was the candidate going to be running track and field with the students? That’s an pretty crazy requirement for an education job.

      Anyone know the type of physical examination? Purpose? What would disqualify a candidate that would be apparent from a physical exam? Is it anything like the special pope-grope chair (https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican39.htm)?

      1. ronda*

        i did a search on the city of atlanta hiring process and found this as a response on indeed about the topic :
        ”
        I applied for my original position in January of 2000 and was hired after physical and background checks were performed in May on 2000

        Answered July 22, 2016 – TRAFFIC SYSTEMS ENGINEERING TECHNICIAN SENIOR (Former Employee) – Atlanta, GA
        ”

        It is just part of the process for them. 3 out of 4 places (all in Atlanta) that I remember the hiring process have required a drug test after the job offer. I think one place, a long time ago, may have required a physical, but I really think they just didnt want to call it a drug test back then.

    5. Observer*

      I wonder what the school system looks like. This was a mayor elected on a platform of improving education. And the first thing said mayor manages to do is to massively bungle a major hire. That’s pretty unnerving.

  10. Anon Today Anon Tomorrow*

    I’m having one of those days, where I’m kind of amazed that some of the people I work with manage to get themselves dressed and out of bed each money.

    We are down an administrative assistant, and so an admin from another department is pitching in. I appreciate the help that this person is offering. However, I’ve never bet an administrative assistant who can use word. And I’m not talking doesn’t know how to do some of the more complicated things in word. I’m taking, doesn’t know how to copy and paste, can’t work out why the text turns red when she makes changes, doesn’t understand how to save a document under a new name.

    I’ve never seen anything quite like it.

    1. Anon right now 2*

      Really makes you appreciate those admins who do understand their jobs and how software programs work.

      1. Margery*

        OMG Word is the most basic an admin should know – I can kind of understand that some admins might not be up to date with Excel formulas etc – but Word that’s a bit bad really.

    2. Jadelyn*

      I sympathize. We once hired a temp admin who was doing a task for me, converting email attachments into PDFs and storing them in a folder on the shared drive.

      He came to me after a little while and said “The folder I was putting them in was full, so I started a new one, I hope that’s okay.” I kind of blinked at him, trying to figure out how a folder on the enormous shared fileserver could possibly be “full” that quickly, and asked if he could show me what he meant. So we went back to his desk and he showed me.

      He apparently hadn’t realized that he could keep adding files even once the visible window was full, that the scroll bar would appear at that point so you could still see everything. He thought that once the file list reached the bottom of the visible window, it was “full” and he needed to start a new folder.

      I’m very proud of myself for keeping a straight face. And I think I managed to be tactful about explaining that no, the folder can hold quite a bit more than can be displayed on a single screen at a time, please combine those folders and keep going as you were, it’s fine. But I can’t be sure, because I was fighting so hard to hold it together at that point, just long enough to get back to my office, close the door, and dissolve into giggles.

    3. McWhadden*

      When I started at my office pretty much *all* of the admins only knew how to use Word Perfect.

      I started a little less than five years ago. Not twenty years ago.

      1. Little Bean*

        When I got my first job out of college in 2005, I had to learn how to use a typewriter.

        1. Anonymosity*

          I started at OldExjob in December 2005. There was still a typewriter in the office. I never had to use it, thank goodness, because I would have been lost. And I grew up with a typewriter!

          1. Hamburke*

            I could use a manual typewriter but the electric ones I always found complicated and never lined up correctly.

            When I did admin work in high school and college, the company I worked for had a typewriter to submit certain government paperwork that came as 3 attached sheets of pressure/carbon paper. I imagine that they still have that typewriter tucked away somewhere even if all the forms have become fillable PDFs or online forms!

      2. GlassHouse*

        WordPerfect is what I learned in my senior year of high school “Business Computers” class. I graduated in 1999. Everything I learned was obsolete by the time I graduated college. That might have been the least useful class of all time.

        1. Not Maeby But Surely*

          GlassHouse – your comment reminds me of my high school experience (class of ’01), when my Keyboarding (aka Typing) class from 9th grade in a different district somehow translated into a Computers credit. Even then it made no sense; Computer Science 1 or whatever was clearly much more than a typing class. I actually wanted to take a real Computers class since I didn’t have a lot of exposure to them at home, but the guidance counselor basically told me I didn’t need to, and encouraged me to find something else to round out my schedule. It’s hit me fairly often over the years what a disservice this was to my education.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            My STEM high school still had a typing skills class on typewriters (it was a part of another class), in 1992. It ran concurrent with various computer programming classes, and there were school teams using the in-house super computer. Guess they wanted to cover all bases!

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’m an internal auditor. There is a minimum amount of computer literacy generally required. However, I don’t do IT audit. Those auditors need a higher level of knowledge.

      Which makes the string of 4 different IT auditor contractors who were computer illiterate especially amusing. I was the admin on our software, so I got to know everyone’s comfort level. These 4 were WELL below even the most challenged of the rest of the department. For some reason, they didn’t last long.

    5. JxB*

      We had a long-time admin who was quite valuable but would have odd gaps in knowledge of common tools. She had to compile a spreadsheet of employee training, and then I was asked to do some summary info. Admin later went ballistic, almost to the point of tears because I had “erased” all her work. Mystified, we finally figured out she somehow didn’t realize you can have multiple worksheets/tabs in Excel – despite using it EVERY DAY. I had saved the file while working in a separate summary tab, so when she opened the file -that’s all she saw.

    6. BeenThere*

      Just this week we received a marked up document from an administrative type who apparently didn’t know how to use track changes so did all the mark ups manually… strike through, red font… all of it. Do you know what a pain that is to fix?! Sending it back!

  11. Redux*

    Summer Interns! We just said goodbye to this summer’s group and, while I think I was a better supervisor this year than last, I still think I have room to grow. I’d love to know: what are your tips for a successful summer internship experience? Here are mine:

    – Share the love. Supervising an intern is a lot of work! I like to build in a few assignments from other people in my group who do not have interns themselves so that when I have a busy week or run out of things to give them, I can kick that week’s assignment and supervision and feedback to a colleague.

    – Write it down. At least for the first assignment, I like to give the intern a memo outlining the project and the first assignment. I also schedule a check-in at the end of the day to give them a chance to clarify the assignment and ask questions. I’ve also moved away from writing assignments because it draws me into editing/ writing coaching (which takes a lot of work), and instead give them narrower questions with 3-4 sentence answers, or task them with sourcing material to support a thesis I am working on.

    – Showcase. A successful event we did this summer was a roundtable of all the interns in our group to showcase what they had been working on so far. We mostly do research/ writing, so they were brief presentations outlining the research topics. My colleagues asked a few (softball) questions to give the interns a chance to respond and clarify. It was low-stakes public speaking practice, gave them a chance to hear about the other projects and interact with the other people in the office, and gave me a chance to see how well they understood the assignments and implications.

    – Socialize. Our interns this year were natural socializers but my colleagues are pretty introverted at work. We organized a few outings over the course of the summer to get interns and staff to mix– a few lunches and a couple field trips gave the interns and my colleagues the chance to talk about non-work things.

    And for a very targeted question I answered for myself yesterday: do you write your interns a thank you note? My office got them gifts, and I had the impulse to write them a thank you note but ultimately decided against it. If anything, they should write me one (right? I always did when I was an intern). And, I figure I will write them a letter of recommendation sometime in the future and that is better than a thank you note.

    (and hello! to the lovely folks on the other thread who responded!)

    1. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Not quite a business intern, but I gave a thank you card and a gift card to my student teacher this year. It was an unpaid practicum and she had to do a lot of work for no money and she did a great job for someone just starting out. I’m not sure what I’ll do if my next one’s a dud, but I was more than happy to give her a small gift and a “let me know if you need a reference” thank you.
      For the record, she also gave me a lovely thank you card.

      1. Middle School Teacher*

        I’ve had over a dozen student teachers, including a few duds. With my good ones, I get them a thank you card and a gc (usually to Staples so they can stock up), about $50. With my duds, usually just a thank you card and a judiciously-worded final evaluation. Sometimes a gc if they weren’t super-dud. (Had one of those too. I wanted to fail her, actually.)

          1. Middle School Teacher*

            I was talked out of it by the university facilitator. I wanted to fail her because she wouldn’t abide by our dress code, for starters, and she WAY overstepped. But her teaching was adequate (which is being generous) so I was encouraged to pass her. But I had the principal help me write her final evaluation, in a way that any admin worth their salt could read between the lines.

    2. LibraryBug*

      No suggestions from me but I love your Showcase plan. I work mostly with student employees (so, close to interns) and we’ve never done something like that. It would be a great way to give them experience on presenting, too.

      I agree that a thank you note is a little odd. We’ve put together small gifts with a card or note but nothing specifically thanking the employee, more like a going-away gift.

    3. bdg*

      I”m in engineering, which tends to be much more structured in co-op programs. Here were things I thought were successful (4 rotations as a co-op with company C, 1 rotation with company A, 1 rotation with company B):

      1. Co-op Presentations – towards the end of the rotation, co-ops should create presentations. 7 minutes for first rotation (or sophomores), 10 minutes for second rotation (juniors), 13ish minutes for third rotation and up (seniors). It should say something about who they are, what they’ve worked on, what they’ve learned, and what they’d like to do next (eg, move to site projects, graduate and pursue full-time position in design, etc).

      2. At the start of a rotation, give the intern/co-op an outline of what they’ll be working on. The big projects. Then include smaller things they can pursue with different people so that they can structure their own time a little bit (eg, my big projects were Write a Big Thing, send out the Giant Status Update every week, and update Database Information, with small projects in Assist with Inspections and Assist with Reviews, so if I had free time I could go to the people who had inspections and reviews and help them).

      3. Field Trips and Volunteering – Company C organizes field trips for co-ops/interns to go visit other sites with those co-ops and interns, so you can see the different locations where people work. Company B had a volunteer day, where co-ops and some full-time employees went and did various projects at a shelter. Good one-on-one time. We also celebrated E-Week with Company B, and had teams of co-ops compete against teams of full-time engineers in some design competitions. I actually ended up with a job offer solely because of how I rallied my team together during those competitions. Company B invited Big Important People to that week, so it was good facetime for employees and co-ops.

      4. Change Things Up – I spent 2 rotations at Company C with a group at corporate, 1 rotation with the sister group at site, and 1 rotation with a different group at site. I worked with generally the same people, but always met more people and changed up my knowledge base a little bit with each rotation. Some companies like to stick co-ops/interns in one group every time they come back, but moving between site and corporate and different groups has been hugely beneficial to me. This obviously works best when you have students for 3 rotations so they can actually rotate.

      5. Take your interns/co-ops to every meeting with you, and be sure to tell them the purpose and then, afterwards, what you thought was accomplished and what they thought was accomplished. But be sure and tell them where to sit. I hated having to guess if I should sit on the wall or at the table.

    4. the gold digger*

      I wish I had been a little more hands-on with my intern last summer. She did not report to me and my boss told me later he had kept things deliberately vague about authority (no, I do not know why he did that), but I should have taken the initiative to have a check-in meeting with her every day and ask her how her work was going, if she needed a new project, etc. She was so fabulous and so hard working that it didn’t occur to me that she needed some hand holding, but at the end of the summer, that’s what she said in her exit interview – that she would have liked a little more guidance.

      I got a text from her yesterday about her internship this summer: “I was thinking about how you always let me listen in on meetings in order to grasp the industry better. That was super helpful to me to learn. Right now, my boss creates special meetings to teach me certain things but I think I’d learn quicker if he took me to his meetings as well.”

      (I answered that her boss might be scared that she’s like the Refinery29 marketing intern.)

    5. Phoenix Programmer*

      I have our interns complete “informational interviews” with staff and leaders around the org. First I have them research the questions then I review and approve or make suggestions. Everyone loves them. The interviewees are flattered and the interns get great knowledge and experience from it.

      I also always offer a resume and cover letter workshop and refer them to Alison’s resources and explain why in our field their university’s suggestions are wrong.

    6. Naptime Enthusiast*

      Seconding the showcase. It is likely that wherever they end up in the future they will need to present their work, so no time like now to start practicing. As an intern, we presented to our department leadership, and they got to know us a little better and get a feel for how we would be as employees after graduation.

      Also, don’t be afraid to introduce interns to other areas in the business where they can intern or get hired full-time in the future. I was a go-getter as an intern and had no problem asking those around me for suggestions, but not all interns know how to ask and can be afraid to come across as ungrateful for their experiences. This summer, I’ve already spoken to 2 interns about what I do day to day and what we look for in potential employees, one of whom reached out to me herself and another whose manager asked if I would be willing to speak to him. It’s better for an intern to know all of their options for the future and find a great fit rather than feeling obligated to take a role they feel ‘meh’ about.

    7. smoke tree*

      Wow, this is much more support than I ever got as an intern (although I was technically a co-op student, so I was paid–not sure if that changes the dynamic). I was generally happy if I was given some vague idea of what I could be working on, but my main problem was no one ever having time to assign me anything. My main suggestion would be to have some back-up tasks on hand for times when things are slow. I’d rather spend hours scanning than spend hours staring at my monitor.

      I definitely don’t think a thank-you note is necessary (and might give them some misguided ideas about the dynamic of the intern/employer relationship), but an offer to serve as a reference is always appreciated.

    8. Nesprin*

      Mine are assigned friends and rec letters. Ive mentored nearly 2 dozen undergraduates and when I hire 2 at once, there’s a de facto buddy system- pairs of interns seem to learn faster since 2 people are listening at once, and it’s harder for 2 people to get stuck than one.
      I’ve also started writing rec letters for everyone who comes through my door and giving them to my trainees- they function as thank you letters in addition as functioning as med/grad school rec letters. My students have really appreciated having a list of what they’ve done with the interpretation of why that work was important and how it fit into the greater scheme of things more than a thanks letter. I have my PI’s rec letter in a secret file of nice things people have said about me for when I have bad days.

  12. stephistication1*

    Video conferencing is part of many office cultures. What are your funny/cringe worthy stories of video conferencing at work? Me:

    – Coworker had his camera on and when the big boss was speaking, said person was making faces, rolling eyes and throwing up his hands as if he didn’t agree.

    – Team was on a project call and one guy (on video) looked like he had is computer on his lap with the cam tilted up…no issues. That is until he stood up to put it down…he was in the bathroom…handing his business…

    Interested to hear other stories!

    1. Murphy*

      Not me, but a friend of mine was doing a webinar. She decides to pump (breast milk) while watching the webinar. Soon after she starts, the man hosing the webinar says, “Just so you all know, this is a two-way street. I can see you.” She panics and covers up the webcam.

        1. Murphy*

          I know! She was laughing when she told me, and she said it wasn’t that long, but still.

      2. DaniCalifornia*

        Stories like these are why I keep my webcam covered unless necessary (and bc of hackers!) I could just see myself doing something like this! Bought a sheet of little black stickers that have an easy tab to peel off and on. So worth it!

        2. EddieSherbert*

          I put a sticker over mine haha :)
          It HAS been useful – I had a recent “just pull the laptop into bed with me for an early morning conference call” where someone would have seen me in bed in my pajamas still if I didn’t have it!

        3. AdminX2*

          Have you seen the new keyboards where the camera is under a pop up key you have to push to reveal?

          1. Specialk9*

            My computer has a slide cover for the webcam. But I can’t figure out if red means recording, vs off, and both look shiny enough to be a lens. I may just go back to the sticker method.

        4. JxB*

          I always keep the camera on my laptop covered. I’ve tried various products (often swag from conferences) with sliding panels and such. But the easiest cover I’ve found are Post-It Flags. Those translucent strips about 2″ x 1″ with a colored edge. Regular paper post-its fall off too easily. Some of the plastic lens covers prevent the laptop from closing completely. Others blend in so well, it’s hard to see if cover is open or closed. The Post-It Flags have just the right amount of adhesive to stick well but be easily movable. I apply it horizontally.

            1. Specialk9*

              Painter’s tape stays put and removes without lens residue, for years. Looks kinda silly, but I figure it’s a security badge of honor.

          2. BeenThere*

            I’ll try that! I have been using a post it note but, as you say, they tend to fall off.

    2. Random Canuck*

      There was a presentation being done by a very senior manager, and they decided to have the camera facing the audience. Manager decided to do his presentation in between the camera and audience, so those of us off-site spent an hour with a huge view of his rear.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        So from your point of view, he really was talking out of his ass?

        Also, were there slides? How would you see the presentation?? This isn’t a game show. We don’t need to see the audience cheering.

        2. Random Canuck*

          Ha, yes. We all thought he was an ass, so it did result in a lot of chuckles and comments at his expense.

          There were audience questions at the end, with the possibility that they would be asked during the talk, so it didn’t hurt to have a camera in the audience direction. I can’t remember if there were slides, but if there are then we get them ahead of time so that wouldn’t have impacted the video view.

    3. I Contain Multitudes*

      I logged in to a video conference room a little early from home and didn’t realize the program defaulted to webcam on as soon as you entered the room. I wasn’t fully dressed yet and was standing in front of my desk while I waited for the program to load (plan was to log in early to avoid last-minute computer issues, then finish getting dressed before the meeting started). Suddenly, my underwear appeared on the screen. Camera was precisely at underwear level and broadcasting to the room. One other person was in the room already, but his video and microphone were off and I have no idea if he was at his computer and witnessed the purple lace display or not. I’m certainly not going to ask and I can only hope he’ll never speak of it if he did see anything.

      2. stephistication1*

        OMG. I would have passed out. I’m sure if he saw it he would have said something to alert you.

    4. motherofdragons*

      I was hosting a video conference call with a large group of people, and we were recording the call. One person on video tried (and failed) to put a Post-it note over her laptop camera, and proceeded to start applying makeup in the middle of the call! We have a friendly relationship so I immediately texted her to let her know and she eventually moved the Post-it properly. She was mortified, and unfortunately there was nothing I could do to take it out of the recording!

    5. motherofdragons*

      Also I haven’t witnessed this myself, but apparently team members have fallen asleep on camera during our regular videoconference team meetings. How embarrassing!

    6. Quackeen*

      I had an interview via Zoom recently, and the job turned out to be much different than advertised. That was all well and good until the recruiter told me the (shockingly low) salary. Evidently I *made a face* at the amount.

      I would never have taken the job, but it was still funny when I got the rejection email about 3 minutes after getting off the phone.

    7. Jenna P*

      OK, this is not a video slip up, just an audio one, but still funny. A few jobs ago, we were gathering in the conference room and the project manager was dialing in the audio conference number for the meeting. He instead dialed a 1-900 sex chat line. Now, he is a great guy, but a bit spacey, so instead of just hanging up the phone the second the automated sex line talk started, he left it on for about three minutes while doing something else before he suddenly noticed and immediately hung up the phone. The rest of us were stifling giggles, waiting to see how long it took before he noticed.

    8. No Tribble At All*

      Emergency conference call with the C-suite, CTO is calling in from home. And now I know what he looks like shirtless.

        1. No Tribble At All*

          Everyone on the line quickly told him that his camera was on, don’t worry. It was a sunny day and he was outside. I was more amused than anything.

    9. H.C.*

      Skyped with a work-from-home contractor in his office, which was fine until he toddler bumbled in and he had to escort her out, showing everyone that his “business on top, sleepwear on bottom” outfit. XD

    11. Nerdling*

      In our old office, the tiny kitchenette was right behind my desk (microwave, minifridge, small sink). I was on a call one day with my camera on, and everyone in the main room started cracking up. Turns out one of the other folks in my offsite was at the microwave dancing while her lunch heated up.

    12. Anon for this*

      I was part of a webinar where one of the other participants flushed. Yet my boss chewed me out in the middle of the office for clicking my mouse too loudly during my section. I was not sad when resigning a month later.

      1. Database Developer Dude*

        Anon for this, your boss was an ass. Put me in touch with him, and I’ll tell him myself for you.

    13. Green Goose*

      We do a lot of video conferencing and we’ve had the occasional employee take a personal call and forget to mute during a large meeting, and a few grumpy faces but the weirdest was when I called one of our branches to conduct a training with some newish employees that I don’t know very well.

      I asked them how they were doing and one of them answered “oh you know, overworked and underpaid, the [company name] way” in a sing-song voice. I was startled by her comment, and I may have laughed awkwardly but then she adjusted her computer and her video caught the back of the room and there were a whole bunch of other staff members in the room. That floored me that she was being so blatantly negative about the organization with people she didn’t know very well and she was such a new employee.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        We didn’t do video (too complicated!) but plenty of audio-only telecons, and yeah, the number of people who thought “go on mute” didn’t apply to them was infuriating. There would be the people taking personal calls on their cells, probably wearing their work phone headphones around their neck, because they definitely couldn’t hear the many pleas to them to GO ON MUTE. If we could tell who it was by the sound notification that appeared next to a name if they spoke, they’d get an IM or email about it.

        I’m surprised there aren’t more people snacking stories, considering how many people were clearly eating crunchy food from crunchy wrappers during most meetings! But I suppose those are tame next to accidental peeks of underwear

    14. JennyFair*

      When I worked from home for GiantCo, a friend who did the same had her home office in a closet off the master bath. In that closet hung all her undergarments, and she put a curtain up in front of those. A curtain which was apparently not secured in a sufficient manner, and which fell down during a video conference, revealing her unmentionables to everyone. And my poor coworker is a very conservative Mormon lady, who was quite mortified.

      2. Specialk9*

        Oh no. That would be bad enough for anyone, but someone who’s extra modest for religious reasons? Awful.

    15. For Sure Anon!!*

      I’ve been wondering if this question was going to come up at some point! I was sharing my screen and rummaging around for a couple files. I had the view on large icons because I needed them in a specific color. Got to the My Downloads folder and OMGGGG there were some nsfw pics/videos of my hubby. And all three other people noticed after the one squeaked. (0_0)

      The worst part is that the files I was looking for was in the My Downloads folder on MY laptop, not Hubby’s laptop (which I was using).

      To be fair, the items were intended for me when we were first dating, and semi-long distance at the time. But still, more of him than most people would like to see. I’m STILL mortified about this.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        A previous job used to have regular Town Hall meetings, with live link-ups from all the different countries and offices. There were several occasions when Mega Boss would start by saying hello to each office in turn and the camera would cut to a deserted conference room.

        1. Time zones galore*

          We had the same – every location was booked, so the video automatically appeared, however due to time zone issues some people called in from home. This resulted in a few empty offices, despite full attendance.

    16. voluptuousfire*

      Had horrible insomnia for about 2 months–averaging maybe 3 hours of sleep a night if I was lucky. I was in a team meeting (luckily camera off!) and fell asleep for 15 minutes during the meeting. I just went out like a light and work up 15 mins later.

    17. CurrentlyLooking*

      Online meeting (go to meeting) with about 5 people from my office all in one conference room and two people, Rachel and Monica, from a different office who were at their own desks.
      Monica is presenting (we can see her screen) during the meeting. There was some differences of opinion on a project between the two offices that we were discussing and Apparently Rachel was not happy. So instead of speaking up, she started IMing Monica insults about the people in my offices conference room. Which we all could see.
      Rachel was in a junior role and her opinions didn’t carry much weight so it was more amusing than upsetting for us.
      After the meeting we did let Monica know we saw the insults. (And eventually Rachel was fired for poor attitude/incompetance)

      1. RedBlueGreenYellow*

        Oooh. That reminds me of the time that the head of another department arranged an online training for my department about a tool that she wanted us to start using. We (the trainees) were in one location, the department head was in another location, and the trainer was in a third location. The department head hosted the meeting, and apparently thought she was sharing only the training slides. Only she was sharing her whole desktop, which is how everyone in our department saw that she was badmouthing us in IM to the trainer throughout the meeting, basically making us out to be idiots. I don’t think she ever figured out why we didn’t get on board with her plan…

    18. Misa*

      Well there was a story at the old big global corporate company about two co workers going into a conference room for some… private time… and not realizing the video equipment was on, there is a control center in the London office that could see them live and all video conferences are recorded…

      I understand they were let go but man… ***shudder***

  13. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    It looks like I’m going to finally get a promotion and raise. I have never negotiated a raise before, I just took what was offered. Standard at my company is 10%, but I’ve been here 5 years without a promotion and will be taking on a LOT more responsibility. How do I go about saying I’d prefer 15%? Help!

    1. irene adler*

      Research what the going market rate is for the position you will be promoted to. That is what they need to pay you.

      1. SarahKay*

        And be clear in your head what your options are and what you will do if they won’t match (or at least come reasonably close to) the market rate.
        It’s much easier to stand firm on what you want if you know that you’re willing to stay in your old post, rather than take a huge rise in responsibilities with only a tiny rise in pay. Or if you decide you’d rather look elsewhere altogether if they won’t pay what you’re worth.
        Bear in mind it will almost certainly cost your company a whole lot more to replace you than to pay what you’re worth.
        Good luck!

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      AAM has a lot of good posts about researching market rate for your position, as well as putting together a justification for a certain salary. I’d do a post search here to start with, and then draft up some points as to why you think 15% would be fair for the position.

    3. AnotherKate*

      This may feel nitpicky but it’s actually not–you’re not telling them what you prefer. You’re going to make your case for what you deserve. This is a pertinent difference; when negotiating a raise, you aren’t dealing in feelings or what you’d like or bringing up things you’d spend the money on. Rather, it’s a business case. Go back through your past 5 years with the company and find things where you’ve gone above and beyond. Particularly in the past year, are there things you’ve done that directly affected the company’s bottom line? Bring those things up.

      Also do a little research about your area and what people with the same job title you’ll be promoted to are earning. Requesting that your salary be in line with industry norms is also a very normal thing to do.

      You can say all of this in a meeting, but I prefer a paper trail. Don’t be like me the first time I asked for a raise and write a novel. An example ahead of your next meeting with your boss might look like this:

      Dear Boss,

      I’m thrilled to be taking on more responsibilities and at the prospect of transitioning into the New Title role. As you know, I’ve already taken on X and Y responsibility with 1, 2. and 3. successes, and I anticipate adding A and B will be an exciting challenge. Given the new responsibilities I’ll be taking on and my success in the past year performing [above and beyond job duty] I’m asking for a 15% increase in compensation to bring my salary up to the industry norm for this role in our area.

      Looking forward to discussing at our meeting on Monday.
      Best,
      Yourname

      1. Anona*

        I picked up on the “prefer” word choice. Don’t say that you prefer it. Tell them why it makes sense. Because we’d all prefer a raise!

    4. BeenThere*

      I was just telling someone the story today.. How I negotiated the first time. I was making $## and the new job offered me the same. It was slightly further from my home and a pretty responsible position so I just said, I was hoping for $%%. When they asked why I had my justification all prepared (as another poster noted, know what the market is and how your experience aligns so you can rationalize the number). They gave it to me. 6 months later they gave me another bump!

    5. Blue*

      Alison did a podcast on this a couple of months ago. It was conveniently posted the week before I expected to negotiate a job offer for the first time, actually. Once I combined the advice and script she provided with the posts on researching market rates for salary, the whole thing wasn’t nearly as scary as I’d feared. And it worked! The original offer was about what I expected but lower than I wanted. I assumed they’d respond to my counter with something between our two figures. Instead, they came back with what I asked for + a little bit extra (not much more, but still!)

      Good luck!!

  14. Chaordic One*

    Open offices?

    Is there anything more to be said about them? Apparently so.

    Last week I came across this article about open offices and I thought I would throw it out there for debate by the AAM Collective Mind. The author states that open offices work when you adopt “Library Rules” of behavior. He may have stumbled onto something. I’ve certainly never thought of it.

    Link to follow.

    2. Lumos*

      But…which library rules are they talking about? Libraries aren’t the quiet spaces people think they are anymore.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I think the author is talking about an old-fashioned library where people don’t visit with each other and just read and do work. It sounds kind of nice in contrast to the chaotic nightmare that open offices can become.

      2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        Yep, the central library at my university has designated quiet floors, and then other floors are louder than the student center (and have tons of food options in them).

        1. The Original K.*

          The branch of the library in my neighborhood has a quiet room on the second floor. There’s often a hum of activity in the rest of the library, particularly the computer lab. There are also a bunch of programs for kids, which aren’t particularly quiet (and aren’t expected to be).

    3. Ruth (UK)*

      my last job was an open office where we phoned people and booked appointments for them to have hearing aid assessments. Basically, we had to speak VERY loud and clear to be heard :D

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I’m sorry, I just cracked up. that sounds like the makings of a comedy sketch! Madness.

        1. Ruth (UK)*

          add to this that many of the people we were calling were quite elderly (often over 80, occasionally in the 90s etc) and often had memory issues or similar… between them mis-hearing, getting confused, getting forgetful and so on, we had some very interesting circular shouted conversations…

    4. Sorry about that*

      Washington Post had an article last week on open spaces. Title – Open space plans are as bad as you thought

    5. Antilles*

      Your link isn’t up yet, but I saw a similar article last week, so I’m guessing it’s either the exact same or a very similar line of argument. I have two big arguments with it:
      1.) Libraries can get away with having people just quietly do work because everybody is there specifically *because* they need/want an environment where you can be alone and nobody talks. For most teams, that’s just not feasible with phone calls, quick questions, etc – in most offices, even having a 15-minute stretch of pure silence is pretty rare.
      2.) Making the library rules work require a level of commitment, effort, and thought about how to effectively manage the quiet spaces…a level which greatly exceeds the amount of thought that generally goes into the “let’s go open office” decision.

      2. Observer*

        Well, if you read the article, it’s clear that they did make some very considered choices.

        Also, he does point out that they knew perfectly well going in that it wasn’t going to help with the collaboration piece AT ALL.

    6. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

      Eh, an open office where people don’t talk to each other is 1) kind of defeating the point and 2) a kind of sad thing to be in (she said from experience).

      I think the solution to the problems of the open office are having adequate conference room, phone booths, and other quiet spaces. Most of the problems come from companies implementing the concept but failing to do that.

      1. Thlayli*

        This. I had a wonderful office experience in my last job where the entire floor was all one open office with about 100 people. My current open office is still in the “settling in” stage and sometimes can be too loud. The key things for an open office to work are:
        1 quiet areas where people can go to do quiet work
        2 people keep it to a reasonable volume at their desks – not whispering but not shouting
        3 sufficient space for whatever work you do – room around each teams area for sufficient storage, layout area (if you work with drawings), printers, etc, whatever u need
        4 a bit of separation between teams, Whether that be dividers or plants or similar

    7. Undine*

      But you don’t spend 8 hours a day (or more) in that kind of library. You don’t attend online meetings in a library. You don’t walk up to other people in the library and ask them urgent questions about work. You don’t make sales calls in a library. They don’t have microwaves and lunch tables in a library. You don’t fire people in a library, or if you do, you’re a librarian and you do it in private, in the office behind the desk.

      On the other hand, in my library, kids play video games (on a library computer), there’s an event where children sing nursery rhymes and for sure some little kid gets overstimulated and has a meltdown, and there are people with nowhere else to go muttering to themselves. Oh, maybe that last one is kind of like work.

      1. JustaTech*

        I think the kind of library being referenced in the article is an academic library, where people do work for 8-10 hours at a go (sometimes) and it is silent like a tomb. (I worked in one for a summer and it was very peaceful.)

        But. That is people working alone, usually on a project that is just them (dissertations, usually). So it’s still not a great model for most offices. Heck, even the librarians in an academic library have offices outside the stacks so they can have meetings and collaborate.

        1. Anon for now*

          Academic libraries are quickly moving away from the “silent as a tomb” model, though. Most will have a quiet floor, and that’s the only space in the building where you’re not going to hear a lot of talking. The one I work in is generally at a dull roar on the other floors during most of the semester, and the same is true for other academic libraries I’ve work at or visited in the past decade.

          1. Library Land*

            Seconded. I’d also wager that their library was so quiet because it was summer. Every academic library sees the summer slump – it’s no way indicative of semester usage (or quietness).

    8. fromscratch*

      I would LOVE if library rules were the case in my open office. I’m currently distracted for 75% of my day by an incredibly loud talker. I’ve started coming in early to avoid her. I have a white noise machine on my desk and even paired with noise canceling headphones, I can still hear every word this coworker says. Management is attempting to coach her on how to use an “inside” voice but it isn’t working.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        I’d love it if library rules were actually enforced in the library. But we aren’t authoritarian shushers anymore. So enjoy the string band that’s performing on the library floor.

      2. Windchime*

        I wonder if you work in my office. We have a lady who has a high, Minnie-Mouse voice and SCREAMS at top volume. Her voice is so loud and shrill that I have to use white noise and Bose headphones to tune her out. We work in a large room that is made up of mostly cubicles (with offices for the managers) and for the most part it’s OK, but there are always going to be people who just will not be able to be quiet (I’m looking at you, old man who likes to spend his day lecturing others about Bitcoin).

    9. DaniCalifornia*

      So these rules are great. The planning and thought behind a good open office is great, if your company is willing to put in the effort to make adjustments for acoustics and such. But all it takes is one loud/annoying/obnoxious/rude coworker to destroy that. Kind of like libraries themselves. Our public libraries are not quiet at all, not like I remember when I was a kid. They have quiet rooms but I no longer enjoy reading in one. College libraries seem to better follow the rules.

      I also don’t think the growing bigger is applicable to every business. I’ve worked six years in my current role and the owner is very set on staying in the building he bought (it’s historic) and not expanding staff. He’s in an area of work that isn’t always improving and he will always be needed (taxes)

    10. Quaggaquagga*

      I currently work in an open office space where music is played and people talk (or shout, really) across departments. It’s incredibly distracting. I *used* to work in an open office space where you could hear a pin drop. I can tell you that the latter made everyone far more neurotic and miserable. If you’re going to have an open office space, then you really must have quiet *areas* for people to get work done in.

    12. Adaline B.*

      My biggest problem with this article is the last part where he mentions this office gets used by 3-5 people AT MOST each day. Well yea it’s going to be quieter, there’s no body there!!

      1. Windchime*

        No kidding. Also, they spent a ton of money on sound-dampening materials, which practically no company is going to really do. And yeah, most of their employees work from home. So I’m not super impressed that it’s quiet there.

      2. Antilles*

        Yeah, I thought that was hilarious, especially when combined with the other items he mentioned.
        “10,000 square foot office”, “3 sound-proofed quiet rooms”, “3-5 people there if you’re lucky”.
        Not to burst your bubble dude, but the reason your office is so quiet is because each employee basically has an the square footage of an entire *house* to himself.

    13. Ginger ale for all*

      I work in a university library and it is not quiet. Professors assign many group projects and students come to the library to collaborate all the time. So the silent library is a stereotype that is only sometimes true. We have a few quieter areas though, but about 70% of the library is filled with study groups and tutors talking.

      1. Alex the Alchemist*

        Yep. Working at one over the summer and we also get a lot of tour groups coming through. One campus guide always comes in and says, “I know I’m a loud talker and we’re in a library so I’ll try to tone it down a bit” and then proceeds to talk at the same extremely loud volume the entire time. Think Andy Samberg’s park ranger character on Parks and Rec.

    14. Triple Anon*

      Open offices are great. They incentivize employees to work from home and/or schedule a lot of pointless meetings.

    15. batman*

      This sounds pretty awful to me. I mean, I don’t like open offices, but I hate coming to work every day and just spending all my time working by myself and not having social contact.

  15. Lumos*

    I have so much to talk about today.

    we got a new manager who’s decided we all need to have absolutely perfect punches (in our annoying 3-step system I’ve complained about before) and now, instead of being able to shorten our lunch if we were fifteen minutes late, we have to use our vacation to it.

    In addition, she’s decided we’re supposed to always be walking around and not be at the desk on the computer at all or having conversations with each other. Yet, she’s always sitting when scheduled on desk, usually working on something on the computer, and she literally is always having personal conversations. I don’t even know how I could handle it if I get in trouble because she’s talking to me? Definitely a do as I say, not as I do thing. But we’re scheduled on the floor 7 hours a day on average and standing that much is really bad for your health, new studies have discovered it’s even worse than prolonged sitting. ughhhh

    1. WellRed*

      So sorry to hear you now have an uptight micromanager who wants to squeeze every dime out of you that she thinks you owe the company for the privilege of working there. This is going to get worse, a lot worse.

    2. LibraryBug*

      It has increasingly struck me as odd that employers can require you do something related to your time, but not have to pay you for the time it takes you to do it. Like in this case, you have to be there early to punch in perfectly (not early or late) but the employer won’t pay you to either 1) wait at the punch clock 2) just start work 3 minutes early. I can’t fathom why it matters so much.

      1. Lumos*

        right? But if we have to stay a smidge late waiting for replacement, our time is rounded so we lose those minutes.

        1. tangerineRose*

          If you get there early, they should give you more vacation time, right? Probably not, but it would be fairer.

    3. Kittymommy*

      I can’t even imagine how extra time consuming it is for payroll to deduct 15 minutes from vacation leave!! What a waste off energy.

      1. you don't know me*

        I do payroll. I would be livid if I got a 15 minute vacation card each time someone was late.

    4. Thlayli*

      We have a clock in system that rounds in 15 min increments. You get 3min grace clocking in though. So if I clock in at 08:33, I am paid from 08:30. However if I clock out at 17:14, I am only paid up to 17:00.

      1. Lumos*

        Our time is rounded also, in fifteen minute increments. so if I clock in at 8:07, per se, it’s rounded down to 8:00 and if I clock in at 8:08 it’s rounded up to 8:15

  16. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

    I’m really irked with a coworker. I needed him to take me over to another facility. When I called him to check his availability, he said he’d pick me up in a couple of minutes. He doesn’t show, I do work, I call him again, he says he got called away, he’d pick me up in a couple of minutes. He doesn’t show again. I ended up having to stay late, because I kept pushing off work, thinking I would be leaving momentarily. As it stands now I emailed him to set up an “appointment” (and have a paper trail)to do the stuff I needed to do next week, but I have no confidence in him anymore and I’m really pissed that he hasn’t apologized for just not showing up. I told him I was flexible, but I don’t think that excuses him saying he’d be there and not showing up (twice!).

    1. Alice*

      If you meant that you were flexible about choosing a time and that time should be firm, and he understood that you were flexible about when to go, I think you need to clarify.

      1. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

        Yeah, I hope by setting a time that will clear things up, but being stood up twice (he could have called to say he couldn’t make it and I would have been fine with that) and left to wait really irked me.

    2. SaraV*

      1) Coworker fickleness is annoying. Things can happen that they might not have been able to help you right away, but yes, they still should have apologized.
      2) Your username is probably my personal favorite that I’ve seen on this site.

        1. Moth*

          I both love the user name and hate it, because now I’ve had that song stuck in my head all day!

    3. Engineer Girl*

      There appears to be missing information.

      Why is coworker responsible for your transportation?

      Does coworker have to stop doing their own task to help you with yours?

      If so, coworker is doing you a favor. They are going to prioritize their own work for yours.
      Also, did you tell coworker that you needed to be at the other facility at a certain time, otherwise it is a soft obligation.

      You basically were asking that someone inconvenience themselves as a favor to you. And you are angry when they didn’t do it to your specification. That’s going to come off as entitled and is a bad look.

      Your best solution is to find a different way to the other facility.

      1. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

        Coworker is the only one who currently has access to the other facility. He isn’t doing me a favor- this is work that needs to be done- if it doesn’t get done, it would be bad for both of us. Like I said, I was flexible, but saying he would be over in a couple of minutes- twice!- and not showing up is not a good look for him. However, he is still the only access I have to other facility, so hopefully setting up an appointment takes care of the issue. (Had he said he was too busy to do it on the day I asked, that also would have been fine.)

        1. Engineer Girl*

          If you truly need access to the other facility then lobby your manager for access. It’s part of your job.

          It sounds like this is a higher priority for you than him. An an appointment isn’t an obligation unless he accepts. It is something that has to be negotiated.

          Your best bet is to find the best time that works for him. This is especially true if granting others access to the facility is Not a primary part of your coworkers job description.

          1. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

            But that’s the thing- he is literally the only person who I can go to to get in the building and it is a part of his job to take other people over there. I can totally sympathize with his being busy- but I can’t sympathize with him saying he would do it- again, twice- and not showing up. If he had said he couldn’t that day, or thought he could the first time, realized he couldn’t, let me know and arranged another time, I would have no problem. It’s him making it into a long, drawn out process that I dislike.

            1. Specialk9*

              Any chance you can pull in your/his manager? One of those ‘how should I handle this, is there another solution’ deals?

  17. ThatGirl*

    We finally have a new person starting a week from Monday. She sounds like she’ll be a great fit.

    I get to be her “work buddy” – basically her go-to person for questions around procedures, culture, etc. And I get to take her out for lunch, on the company.

    Any thoughts on things I should absolutely do or mention her first week here? She will have an orientation (to the building and company writ large) and my manager and other team members will help train her as well.

    1. WellRed*

      Honestly, I think it’s always a good idea to discuss, as you say, culture (what do people do for lunch?) and things like where the office supplies are. Also, who to go for what (We had a mgr who would always tell new hires to let her now if they needed anything, but in reality, if you asked her, it “wasn’t her job.” I always said, “Actually, go to Persephone, instead, she’ll get it done.”

    2. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

      Office quirks that aren’t taught!

      When we have a busy day, we’ll sometimes bring someone in to cover our front desk. They’re basically told “Answer phones, sign people in, and call us to grab them.” That’s it – they’re not really given info on what type of questions have to go to a particular person, or who counts as a “manager” or “supervisor”, or what to do if someone wants to see a particular person but that person is out… nothing. So whenever we have one of those days I try to give them a rundown on “so and so can do XYZ but cannot do ABC, this person will grumble at you sometimes about helping people but it’s fine, it’s still their job, it’s not personal, here’s the process we use to assign sign-ins, etc”. Sometimes these are people who work at another location doing the same role, but even then each office has differences so I’ve found they’re really appreciative getting a crash course.

      So, in your case, are there any deviations from training that y’all frequently do but that isn’t actually taught? Are there any coworkers who can be prickly or who prefer to be asked something in a particular way? Is there anything your boss has a particular eye for or a pet peeve about? What’s the best approach if she needs to take a personal call during the day, should she duck out or can she take it at her desk? I think things like that will go a long way to helping her settle in.

    3. Jadelyn*

      Is there anything you had to learn over time that you wish you’d known at the start? Off the top of my head, good stuff to know about a new job that might not be covered in orientation:

      – The real dress code. Not just the one in the handbook, but what it actually translates to in practice.
      – Best people to ask questions on various areas. If you need to know something about llama grooming, talk to Sally, but if your question is about llama feeding, start with Sam instead. If Joe isn’t responding to your requests for something, ask Jane to nudge him, he responds to her even when he’s not responding to anyone else.
      – Any personality quirks of coworkers that it might be helpful for her to be aware of – you have to tread lightly on this so it doesn’t get into gossip, but for example when we’ve brought new people onto the team I’ve warned them about a certain member of executive leadership who literally cannot accept a deliverable as-is, ever. He will ALWAYS send it back for at least one round of revisions, even if you produced it exactly to spec the first time. Don’t take it personally – it’s not a reflection on your work quality, it’s just a Thing Steve Does.
      – Food and break conventions of your office – do people eat at their desks? Is it okay to go for a 5-minute walk around the building on your break? If groups go to lunch and invite you to tag along, is it actually okay to decline or will it seem weird?

      2. Decima Dewey*

        “If you need to know something about llama grooming, talk to Sally, but if your question is about llama feeding, start with Sam instead. If Joe isn’t responding to your requests for something, ask Jane to nudge him, he responds to her even when he’s not responding to anyone else.”

        Add to that: Aspasia knows everything, verify anything Perdita tells you with someone else. Perdita means well, heaven knows.

    4. Trisha*

      I caution you to temper what you tell her based on the feel you get throughout the day.
      For most new members of my team (I’m the manager), I like to give them a heads up about some things my team has agreed upon (when there was a building refit, my team moved into smaller, very closely connect cubicles – the team agreed that it was not appropriate to just stand up and look into other people’s workspace and start talking – we use instant messenger to confirm the person is free; and my team has a big thing about saying “Good morning” or “Hello” or some polite thing before immediately launching into “I need….”) Anyways, 95% of the people who come onto the team appreciate me sharing with them these 2 expectations; I have one person who is transitioning off the team and one of the reasons given to me was that she was “afraid” meeting the rest of the team because of these “rules” that I shared – it made it seem like an adversarial environment where she couldn’t just pop up and start talking to someone. I mean, she’s got some other issues (and is moving to work under a manager who just happens to be one of her besties outside the office…don’t get me started) but still, it’s made me double think what I choose to share with new employees.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Appreciate everyone’s feedback! Definitely will get a feel for her and not overwhelm her with info. We’re a small team (mid size dept) and she’ll be sitting right next to me so I can share things as needed.

      2. Specialk9*

        That’s ridiculous. I really don’t think that’s on you, that sounds like helpful info and she just is off.

      3. Observer*

        Eh, it strikes me that this is actually a good selection tool. What you describe is both totally reasonable and non-draconian, but also not something a lot of people would recognize on their own. So, most people would be ok or grateful for being told “Oh, generally when you want to talk to someone shoot them and IM since most people get taken aback if you just stand up and start talking to them over the partition. Also, we like a hello or good morning before launching into the business at hand.”

        Even for someone who thinks that all of these social lubricants are a waste of time, if you can’t internally roll your eyes and the just DO it, you have a problem and an open type plan simply is not a place you’re going to do well in.

    5. Blue*

      I just finished my third week in a new job, and these are some of the things I wish someone had done (maybe not the very first day, but certainly the first week):
      – Sit down and go through policies and expectations. For example, exempt employees at this new place have to report time worked, which I didn’t know until I got a cranky email from the system after missing the submission deadline. Or if my boss and I are arranging to meet with someone from another team, is she fine with me jumping in and committing her to a time as long as it looks like she’s free on her outlook calendar, or does she prefer to confirm herself?
      – Maybe set aside some designated Q&A time. I’m pretty self-directed, and I’m fine compiling a list of questions and saving them until I have a chance to sit down with my coworker, but it can be hard to pin her down. It would’ve been helpful if she’d blocked off time a couple times a week for us to touch base. That way, I’d know she’s free and can plan accordingly, and we could’ve cancelled if it wasn’t needed.
      – Go around the floor on day one and make introductions. I won’t be working directly with most of the staff around me, so it didn’t occur to the people on my team that general introductions would still be useful. It’s really awkward to introduce yourself to someone when you happen to cross paths in the bathroom, btw.
      – Send a list of urls to bookmark.

      I’m definitely seconding the recommendation that you break down who does what. That stuff can be super hard to figure out from the outside! I’d also say that even if you leave it to the person to train themselves in whatever way works best for them, it’s still good to provide some structure or guidance. Like, “Top priority should be mastering A, then start familiarizing yourself with B and C.”

      Good luck! I hope the new person’s awesome.

  18. Amber Rose*

    I’ve been doing my boss’s work all week while she’s been away and I’m super insecure about it. I’m really worried she’ll come back on Monday and say everything is wrong. I’m afraid to move one job on to the next stage because it has a weird thing and I’m wondering if I should just wait and let her review it first. The more I think I have a grasp on things, the more I realize how much more there is that I don’t know anything about.

    There’s gotta be a line between imposter syndrome and the very real possibility that I just don’t know enough to be doing some of this stuff right, but it’s hard to see it.

    Also I’ve been not exactly on my A-game this week, since my mother in law has been visiting all week which means I’ve had zero downtime since last Saturday. I’ve had music going all week to try and keep the anxiety levels somewhere below the point where I become nonfunctional, and it’s sort of been working but I’m really at my limit.

    How can I just kind of accept that I did my best and move on with my life?

    1. Boop*

      Take it as a learning experience. If she says you did it all wrong, apologize and ask how it should have been done. For the project you’re afraid to move forward, do you have a grandboss you can ask? If not, I find it helpful to explain why I didn’t take an action – then you have the opportunity to ask about that specific type of situation in case it comes up again.
      Good luck!

      1. Amber Rose*

        I have several grand bosses. But my boss is quite literally holding this place together. When she’s away, everything falls apart, and when I ask questions, I usually get told “leave it for Boss when she gets back, she’s the only one who knows.” Which sucks for her, and is one of the reasons I think she’s kinda cranky and hard to work with. It can’t be fun to feel like the only competent person in the entire business. So I try to make judgement calls and do stuff as much as I can. I think that’s why so much is now landing on MY desk.

        But this stuff is kind of high stakes and she’s terrifying when she’s mad. Yelling I can handle, but she just kind of goes cold and dark. I have martial arts teachers who would be impressed by that level of killing intent.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Sounds like you need a new job. A place that falls apart because one person is out, every time, isn’t healthy.

    2. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

      Honestly, for me, I like to think about worst case scenarios and reassure myself that I’ll be fine even if that happens. I feel like this approach makes some other people way nervous, so YMMV, but it might help! If you messed up the project, what will your boss do when she gets back? I suspect (based on what you note) that, like, firing wouldn’t be on the table. She’d probably tell you what the problem was, you’ll talk it out, maybe she’ll be frustrated but it’ll pass. As long as you’re prepared for an absolute worst case scenario, anything better than that will be a pleasant surprise!

    3. Nanc*

      Be proactive. Write up a little report of what you did and what you have concerns about–point her in the direction(s) where you believe she must double check your work. If there are not SOPs for the tasks you covered, write them up as you did them and ask her to review so next time you cover for her you have step-by-step directions.

    4. TheLiz*

      Well it sounds like the thing you did was really difficult, and you’re at the finish line – well done! A therapist once told me “wow, you’ve got a lot going on right now, no wonder you’re feeling overwhelmed and low on cope!” and honestly it was the most helpful thing. You’ve been doing work that’s extra-hard while your mother-in-law was visiting – that sounds really difficult, no wonder you’ve felt anxious!

  19. Anonimals*

    So I saw a job I had applied and was interviewed for get posted up again (it’s a short term position). I was rejected the first time around but would like to email the recruiter that I’m still interested. Question is, would I need to write a whole new cover letter if told to apply as normal again?

    1. Safetykats*

      Yes, please do. While it’s possible that your old information is still on file, it’s unlikely that HR would pull your old cover letter and attach it to your new application. So if you don’t provide a new cover letter, I would suspect your info will go out to the hiring manager with no cover letter.

      1. Safetykats*

        Just to clarify – because I’m not sure most people who aren’t involved in hiring realize this – it’s not uncommon to get literally hundreds of applications for a single posting. We have a pretty well staffed HR department, but in the initial application aort they don’t have time to do really anything that the computerized system doesn’t do for them.

        1. Anonimals*

          Ah true, didn’t consider it might be hard to recover the original files. Well, guess I better get writing again just in case, thanks!

    2. foolofgrace*

      Do you mean it was posted and then taken down because they hired someone, and now for some reason like the person didn’t work out and they’re posting it again? Or do you mean it was posted, you applied, and now a week or so later it’s posted again? I would think that they’ve already decided to take a pass on you and I’m not sure what applying again would accomplish. I might be misunderstanding the situation, though,

      1. Anonimals*

        Yes to the first. There were a couple positions to fill and they filled them all and took the positions off the website, then a few months later, posted back up (I don’t know if they didn’t work out or if it was that temporary though). From what I’ve read here on past letters, Alison told them to go ahead, just never said anything about new cover letters.

    3. Berry*

      While I’ve never been a hiring manager or recruiter, I believe I’ve seen advice on this site that says if you’re reapplying to something you should write a new cover letter instead of attaching the old version. Attaching the old version makes it look like you’re just form applying for the sake of applying, and a reworked cover letter could give you a chance to present your skills in a different way that may fit more of what they overlooked the first time around.

      1. Anonimals*

        Was afraid of that (my last cover letter was probably my strongest so far). But yeah, I can try to re-work it this time to try and show how I fit the different set of skills, thanks!

  20. The Other CC*

    Hi AAM hivemind! I’ve got a job offer dilemma and could really use some objective third-party advice. This got long, so Tl;dr – I’ve got a tentative job offer that would include training in a field I’m somewhat interested in, but not sure I want to stay in long-term. Should I take the job? Or look for a different position (despite a potentially weak resume) in hopes of getting something that fits my goals a little better?

    Long version:

    I’m mentioned on here before that I’m looking for a career change, and an opportunity has presented itself. I recently started a (fourth) part-time job as an assistant at a family friend’s law office (let’s call her Hermione). Her longtime assistant Luna wants to retire soon, and this week Hermione pitched me the idea of Luna training me to take over her position. Luna reassured me that Hermione is great to work for, the office culture is friendly and relaxed (no heels necessary!), and the pay, schedule, and benefits would be superior to my former career in the arts.

    I realize what a great opportunity it would be to work with great people and get paid to break into a new field, but I’m not sure I want the job. While I think I’d like the work okay, long-term I’m fairly certain I don’t want to work in the legal field. There are other opportunities I’m interested in that would get me closer to my long-term goal of doing project management of some kind, but I haven’t actually applied for them yet (I am great at procrastinating on my own job search!). I definitely don’t want to leave Hermione high and dry by having her and Luna invest time in training me and then I leave in two or three years. I’m also worried it’ll be more difficult to break into another field when I’m in my mid-late thirties vs. in my late twenties.

    On the other hand, until now almost all my work experience has been in the production side of the performing arts, so I worry my resume will look very weak compared to other candidates applying for these entry-level jobs at other organizations. Maybe a few years of experience at a law office would be useful as a transition to a professional job with more room for advancement. Also, my main part-time job is a fairly dysfunctional workplace, and some days I just want to quit because I’m so tired of fielding calls from customers who are angry about things I have no control over. If I keep the same schedule as the current assistant, I’d have three days off each week and could use that time for further education, freelancing in my old field, and/or pursuing my hobbies.

    I have a meeting scheduled with Hermione on Monday to go over all the details, and then I assume she’ll want an answer sometime next week. What’s your take on all this? Would it be better to take the “safe” job as a stepping stone, assuming it doesn’t screw over Hermione? Or should I turn her down and go for positions at companies where I would be more interested in staying long-term, even if it’s less likely I’ll get a job at those companies? Help!

    PS – at my other other part time job now and won’t be able to answer til lunchtime!

    1. Panda*

      I personally would take the job at the law office. It sounds like you know the people are great, the work is only 4 days per week, it would get you out of your toxic part-time job, and you’d still have time for your other passions or to build your skill set to move into project management in the future.

        1. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

          Yeah, I mean, it might be particular to the field or geographical area or something that only OP knows, but I can’t think of a single “assistant” titled position where 2-3 years isn’t a great tenure. Heck, a lot of places create these positions knowing they’ll have roughly *annual* turnover in it. Spending 3 years in such a position is absolutely worth the investment in training on the firm’s part.

          1. The Other CC*

            Part of my hesitation is that the person I would be replacing has been there 20+ years and has more responsibility than her title suggests. She’s not a certified paralegal but my understanding is she does the work of one, combined with some of the admin work of running an office shared with a few other attorneys and their assistants. I think I can do the job, but I just don’t know for sure what kind of commitment Hermione is looking for (which will be one of the things I plan to bring up on Monday!)

        2. Reba*

          Seconded, it’s not leaving them “high and dry” to work for them and then move on at some point. The training is something everyone needs to work, it’s not a special gift they bestow upon you that demands your gratitude! (I mean, you can be grateful for the opportunity! I just don’t think it’s something that means you owe them your life.)

          Good luck with the decision and with whatever new thing you start, Other CC!

    2. OperaArt*

      This internet stranger’s vote is to take the job.
      This would be a part-time job with relatively good pay, hours, benefits, and working environment. It would give you the flexibility to do what you need to transition into your preferred field: take classes, volunteer, freelance work.

      1. The Other CC*

        Thank you kind internet stranger! My friends and family have been annoyingly respectful of my decision. I know they can’t make the decision for me…but I want to know what they think!

    3. Nessun*

      Take the job and learn all you can! There’s nothing saying that if you didn’t, Hermione wouldn’t find a different replacement for Luna and then a year later lose that person to a new opportunity – you’re not doing something that might not happen anyway. And besides, maybe you’ll find you love the work, and can learn something you haven’t even thought of! Do it, learn stuff, move on if/when you need to.

    4. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      How big is the law office? Also, what industry do you want to be a project manager in?

      I’ve seen people transition from EA work to project management work in big advertising or media companies, but they were transitioning inside the same company. Even then, it’s not a common path.

      1. The Other CC*

        It’s a solo practitioner with one assistant. So two people. (Well, they rent an office suite with a few other attorneys but don’t share staff, generally – I would be working for Hermione exclusively).

        As for a specific industry for project management…no idea. Healthcare is big in my city, and there are several large universities and cultural institutions I’d be interesting in working at. I just know construction management and probably a lot of energy industry companies are out (some other large industries in my area).

    5. Kittymommy*

      I would take it as well. Every if you don’t consider the financial benefits, the skills you will get from it will be very transferable to other work including project management (at least from what I have seen). Take the job, put in a couple of years, soak up the experience, and then move on.

    6. EA in CA*

      Take the job. You can develop a lot of transferable skills that you will learn from this job that can be applied to other positions. You already know what it’s like to work there, so the transition would be easy. 3 years is a long time for admin staff to stay in one place, especially in the early years of your career. You can develop and use those skills to start looking for admin or admin related jobs with a project management track. I know a few people who got into that line of work by starting at the Admin for the Project Management department and over time moved into that career path.

    7. Effie, who gets to be herself*

      Echoing almost everyone above me. Take the job, learn what you can, use your free time to continue your passions. I’m in a similar situation and I’m very happy. A good team/working environment/boss is a huge intangible perk that can’t be bought with money.

    8. The Other CC*

      Wow, thank you everyone who replied! Hearing your perspectives has been very helpful. I’ve been leaning towards accepting the job but was worried it would somehow torpedo my long-term career plans. I’m glad to hear that my worries are unfounded. Once I get more details on Monday I’ll know for sure one way or another. Thank you all so much! I’ll report back next happy hour :)

      1. Nesprin*

        It is surprisingly hard to torpedo long term career plans. The worst that happens is you decide that the position isn’t for you and use the new skills you’ve learned to go do something else. There’s always room for people who know how to do stuff, even if it isn’t what you planned on.

  21. IrishCailin*

    U.K. people – I’m relatively entry level and looking to move on from my first job out of uni after two years, however I have a three month notice period mandated in my contract. I’ve started getting interviews, do I need to raise the long notice period before the offer stage if I’m not asked for it?

    1. Discordia Angel Jones*

      If you are in a “profession”, three months is normal.

      If not, it still won’t be unheard of. Don’t worry about raising it until you get through to the offer stage, or at least very advanced discussions.

    2. Mariella*

      Usually ive found, if applying for a job the notice period is either raised with company in the interview or if you went via recruiter they tend to ask.

      Some recruiters are very pushy so dont worry if they say things like could you take annual eave for the last 2 weeks or if you can shorten it etc.

    3. LDN Layabout*

      Three months is a bit long for entry level (I’ve mostly seen 1 month for post-uni professional positions), but normal for the next stage up so you’ll be fine.

      And since it /is/ normal, think about what it says about a company if they start pressuring you on the length of your notice.

    4. Thlayli*

      3 months is normal in U.K. for lots of jobs. It’s a bit unusual for entry level but not unheard of. You can safely wait to offer stage they shouldn’t be angry or annoyed at that.

    5. Bagpuss*

      3 months is standard for a lot of professional jobs.
      I’d expect it to be raised in interview but I don’t think you need to specifically raise it unless they do.

  22. chicagoan*

    Looking for advice about a coworker who is a serious mansplainer!

    TLDR: small local govt dept of 3 people, all started about the same time, but me and coworker 1 have worked for this local govt previously so this job was a promotion for us. coworker 2 is a new hire to the govt and has been telling us how our govt functions, how to do our jobs and just generally acting like he knows everything about everything. It is driving us crazy and undermining us in front of our boss.

    Long story:
    We all do public policy research for the legislators of our local government. I worked directly as a legislative aide for those legislators prior to this position and received a promotion to this position which is in a different department. Coworker 1 worked in a different local government dept for several years before this. Coworker 2 is several years older than me and just finished grad school. However, we all have MA degrees here but from different schools in the area. Coworker 2 started after me and coworker 1 and immediately began telling us how to do our jobs including sending us articles entitled: “What is the function of county government” even though we are the only two with direct experience working for the county. He also tries to explain to use local issues in our area even though we both have worked directly with these issues in our own previous work. Not to mention he is constantly bragging about how he went to a better school than we did and how prestigious his education is. Despite the fact we all landed the same job… There are several other examples but I’ll keep it brief.
    Besides being rude and frustrating, I feel like it is undermining me in front of my boss. I feel that I’ve lost confidence in myself and my work and it feels like there’s a competitive undertone to everything now. Coworker 1 agrees with this. There is a significant age gap between me and coworker 2. I am 23 and finished my graduate degree over a year ago and have worked for the county government since then and at this new job with the county for over a month. Coworker 2 is 30 and just graduated but hasn’t had any real work experience. I mention this only because it contributes to my feeling undermined at work. It is really starting to upset me and affect my interactions with this person. I know I am a fully capable and smart employee and my boss hired me first and liked me enough then so I know he likes me and find me capable now but I just feel really small now.

    Any help approaching this is very appreciated!

    1. Temperance*

      Have you called him out on this? Have you asked him why he’s sending you articles like that, and why he’s telling you how to do your job? Have you responded in kind, CCing your colleague? I would start sending HIM articles, and then play dumb when he calls you on it (because he will), and say something like, oh, I just assumed we were all sending articles to each other, since we have the same job and all.

      He sounds like a jerk, and yes, he IS undermining you by treating you like you’re stupid to your boss. This is how mansplainers get promotions. They make it clear that they are the smartest and best, because look, my colleagues don’t even know what their job is!

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Honestly, give it back to him. Why yes Jim that is interesting did you know that here at county X we’ve been doing that for 5 years and with the new regulations we are looking at implementing X, Y, & Z new procedures.

      1. LCL*

        Yes, start speaking up.
        ‘Yes Jim, that is one way. We do it another way, and here is why.’
        When he says he went to a better school, question him.
        ‘Why do you think your school is better than the one I went to?’
        and so on.
        When someone is questioning your technical chops, you hit back with technical stuff. In some fields this questioning and prodding is normal. The best way to deal with it is to drag everything back to the subject at hand.

    3. Brownie*

      Bring this up with your boss as soon as you can. While you can use scripts like “This is not helpful or professional, stop” with Coworker2 this is something your boss should be made aware of so they can manage that behavior. It will also help your boss avoid being sucked into the loudest-is-best bias that can show up in situations like that. You have every right to stand up and tell him that his behavior is unprofessional and not appreciated.

      I’d be so tempted in that situation to come over all “Oh, you graduated from Fancy School? That’s okay, we don’t worry about schools here so it wouldn’t have been a negative when you were hired” or other snide comments implying that his school is vastly overrated just to watch him get more and more flustered. For the how-to-government stuff a blank face of “Why are you telling me this? My job description comes from Boss.” on repeat might be a good non-confrontational approach, even if “You, a recent hire, are trying to tell me, someone who’s been here for over a year, what my job is? Are you kidding me?!” would be so much more satisfying in the moment.

      1. tangerineRose*

        For the “better” school he went to, I might say something about not being able to afford going to that school. The snarky part of me wants to say “You went to that great school, and all you could get was this job?”

    4. Ladyb*

      Your boss (if they’re any good) probably realises this guy’s an ass and isn’t putting any store in his opinions.

    5. MikeN*

      When he sends you stupid emails with info you already know: delete and ignore, and move on. If he asks you about them: “No, I didn’t read that.” If he starts asking why not, etc.: “I’m good, thanks.” If he persists (we can all grow, learning is forever, no one knows everything, etc.): “I’ll keep that in mind, thanks. I have to get back to work now.” Never justify your actions; that only gives him power.

      When he starts mansplaining in person: “Thanks, but I’ve got this [or] Thanks, but I’m already familiar with that issue. I have to get back to work now.” If he persists, put him on the defensive: “Why do you feel the need to explain things to me that I already know?” When he gives you his self-justified response: “Interesting. You may not realize this, but it comes across as insulting. That’s not your intention, right?” When he protests and says that it’s your fault because you’re being hypersensitive because he doesn’t mean it that way: “How successful you are at communicating is a function of how your message is received, not how it’s sent.” After he whines some more about how he’s trying to help: “OK, I guess we’re done here. I have to get back to work.” Never give him anything that he can get a grip on/get his teeth into. And don’t hesitate to call him out…people like that use other peoples’ politeness as a weapon. It’s not rude to call him out. It might be uncomfortable, but it’s not rude.

      That BS about how his school is better: some people are tools; what can I tell you?

      BTW, I’m a guy, so apologies if this comes across as mansplaining!

    6. Saffie Girl*

      I totally understand how this can wear on your self confidence and be really frustrating to deal with – I have been there a few times myself.

      Unfortunately, you probably can’t change him (and he’s not going to change) but you can modify your own behavior/thoughts. Let him be a braggart, let him think he knows more – EVERYONE can see through him. These actions speak much more about him and his personality than you. The best response to this personality type is to not engage, then out perform them.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Well, I graduated from Hoity Toity U, you know, which is a much more prestigious school.”

      “And yet you have the same job I do. Huh.”

    8. MikeN*

      Out of curiosity…what kind of comments does he make about his school? Does he just frequently name-drop it, or does he actually talk about how it is better than other schools? I’ve worked with people who did the former, you know, “When I was at Yale…”, but I can’t imagine how someone would do the latter. I mean, it takes all kinds, but still…

    9. Troutwaxer*

      If he’s the kind of insecure mansplainer who sends experienced coworkers articles on the function of county government, you’re going to have to be blunt about this, otherwise he simply won’t notice. I would suggest saying something like this, in the kindest possible tone: “Steve, I hate to confront you like this, but you have no experience in this job and you don’t yet know what you’re talking about. You may not know this, but I’ve been working here for more than a year, Coworker has been working for the county for the past five years, and your clueless, repeated attempts to tell Coworker and I how to do our jobs make you look kind of insecure and arrogant. So please stop trying to manage us because we already have a boss and you don’t have any experience at all.”

      I tend to be grumpy, so you can soften this as necessary, but however you phrase it you will have to be fairly blunt, or as I said above, he will not notice your attempt at communication.

      If he gets in your face about the school he went to, you can remind him that he was absent when they discussed “how to fit into a new work environment without annoying your coworkers.” If he gets pissy about how you’re a feminazi, you can note that both men and women hate being talked down to by an inexperienced coworker – and the inexperienced coworker isn’t doing himself any favors.

      I don’t know if a civil-service exam is involved in working for your county, but if so you might also note that lots of women and minorities go to work in government jobs because the civil-service exams don’t have prejudice, so that many more of his colleagues will be female, black, hispanic, etc., than if he had a job in the corporate world, and he might want to adjust his behavior and language accordingly.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        I just read MikeN’s reply above and his scripts are much better than mine. (As I said, I tend to be grumpy.)

    10. Jadelyn*

      So these may depend on how snarky you feel comfortable being about it, but there was a post making the rounds on Tumblr the other day with some suggested responses to shut down mansplainers that I thought were amazing:

      – “So which aspect is confusing to you? I’m happy to help, but I’m not sure what you’re asking.”
      – “You’ve got a good grasp on the basics – would you like me to suggest some additional sources so you can get a more nuanced understanding?”
      – “Did you have a specific question, or do you just want a more in-depth explanation?”

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        I have to be honest, I’m really partial to something like “I’ve worked here a year longer than you have. Was there some reason you thought I didn’t already know this?”

      2. Ali G*

        I like the idea of turning into asking him what he needs of you.
        I might also just tune him out and wait for him to stop talking and then say something like “Uhuh, OK! What help you with?”

      3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I rather love the tactic of assuming that they are sending you information because they have a question about it and know you are more knowledgeable.

    11. Thlayli*

      I’ve responded to really obvious explanations with “wow thanks I never would have figured that out. [obvious thing a child could do] is really complicated.”

      That tends to get the point across. If not then have a chat with him, along with your coworker, where you say clearly and unambiguously what the problem is, not hint or try to be polite about it.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        I would say I think it’s possible to be both direct and polite by using both tone-of-voice and carefully chosen words. Whether it will be received as such or not is another matter.

    13. Emilitron*

      I am mostly exposed to this kind of stuff when I’m giving a presentation and some “asks a question” that has no question, just a lot of listen-to-what-I-know. I try to respond with, “Yes, that’s right!!”, putting me back in the teacher/authority seat as if they were asking me to confirm this unverified information – not what they actually intended, but responding as if it were can do wonders for not feeling undermined. And better still when you can say “Yes, for the most part that’s true, but what we saw (experience) also indicated X as a cause.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is great, also.
        Turn the comment around as if the student is explaining it to the teacher, where he is the student and you are the teacher, OP. “That’s right and for the most part we found xyz to be true. However we had a case last year where the correct answer was yzx. So these things do happen.”

    14. 99 lead balloons*

      There’s a lot of good advice here, so let me just tell you that I hope you can reclaim your confidence. A master’s at 23 and that kind of career progression already ain’t anything to sneeze at! Coworker 1 sounds like a good ally if you need to approach the boss together. (see Alison’s advice about approaching in groups). I bet you’ll find your boss sees right through him, too. Guys like that are never aware of how obviously obnoxious they are. He’s waving his insecurities around like a giant spangly flag. “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent” – Eleanor Roosevelt. Easier said than done, but don’t stop reminding yourself of how awesome you already are.

      What I would be sorely tempted to do when he sends articles, but wouldn’t b/c professionalism (le sigh), would be to reply UNSUBSCRIBE. Maybe saying that in your head w/an eye-roll will help you laugh it off. :)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Whole-heartedly agree on the emails.

        First time: Please do not send me any more emails like this.
        Second time. Do not send me any more emails like this. This is my second request.
        Third time: I have mention on two previous occasions that I do not want emails like this. Stop. Any further emails will be sent to the boss to decide if this is an appropriate use of time and resources.

        1. Bagpuss*

          Or even, “Please don’t send me more emails like this. It’s good that you are taking steps to increase your knowledge of (relevant subject) but I’m already familiar with it, so you do’t need to copy me in on this type of thing”

    15. Not So NewReader*

      “Bob, we already know this about X. Do you have something new to add or can we move on?”

      “Bob, it seems we spend a lot of time reviewing things that people with our background already know. I think we can find better uses for our time.”

      “Bob, we are not in college anymore. There is no need to teach [insert appropriate course name] here.”

      “Bob, these are basics that we have already covered long ago.”

      “Bob, are you an undercover teacher? You seem to always be teaching us Basic Info 101. You know this is not a classroom, right?”
      Some of these once you have said it you can shorten it. For example, “Bob we are not in college anymore.” or “Bob you know this is a workplace not a classroom, right?”

      About Big Name School.
      “That’s nice, Bob. Hey, that is a spendy school right? How’s it going with the student loans?”

      “Good for you, Bob. So tell me. How did you land this job here.”

      “Oh that’s nice, Bob. You know I was reading online and I see that things are moving so fast that most degrees are stale before the student gets the diploma. I guess that means we all start from scratch once we get out, eh?”

      “You have been very fortunate, Bob. You know my [family member] went to Bigger Name School and she never mentions it to anyone. She doesn’t really need to mention it, she is such a superstar anyway.”

    16. stk*

      Ugh, this sounds so frustrating! I do think you’ll have to challenge him on it – for your peace of mind, and because this stuff is so toxic. (Even if your boss knows you’re great right now, I think you are right to worry that in six months or a year of this, the barrage may have had some impact on how Boss thinks of you and your work.)

      Because of that, I’m wondering if maybe you do want to go public and loud. Could you maybe say “Even if you mean well, sending me articles like [latest example] makes it sound as though I don’t know basic things about my job. Could you stop? If you have a serious concern about my work, [I want to know directly/Boss is the person to speak to]”. And then if he doesn’t quit – which he probably won’t, because he sounds like an ass – then you’re in a great position to tell him “this is what I was talking about before: please stop it immediately”.

      Have you actually discussed it with your boss? If not, I’d say it’s worth bringing up. You have a work problem; “I’ve been having this issue with Dude 2. I’ve asked him to stop but I wanted to tell you about it because I think it is affecting our work” is a very reasonable thing to say to a boss in that situation. I would HATE the idea of having that conversation myself, though. It’d be better than the “this situation has escalated and is now a massive excrement explosion waiting to happen” conversation, though.

  23. MissingArizona*

    I have an interview today! It’s my first real interview after being a housewife for the last 5 years! I am so nervous! They said my skills might be too high for this, but since I’ve been out of the “game” for a while, it just might fit. Everyone cross your fingers!

      1. Margery*

        Good luck and even though your skills might be too high – let them know you are keen to learn and make a difference.

  24. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom
    Guys, it’s been quite a week.

    Farquad has taken the last three days off, and it has been blessedly quieter. Not quiet, but quieter.

    I took a regional magazine thing into our proofreader. It’s one of those that tells you what sort of arts/ entertainment things are going on around town. The kind you pick up on the way into or out of the grocery store, and then leave in the cart without reading it. Anyway, our proofreader is one of my favorite coworkers. He’s in his 80’s, and I’m pretty sure I woke him up from a light snooze when I took it in. I asked if he’d proof it for me, and he asked what it was. “It’s Teapot Entertainment Bimonthly.” He sighed and goes, “Oh, crap.” He then complained about whether some of the people sending in the articles read them first or not. (It’s unlikely.)

    Yesterday, Boss’ Boss’ Boss’ (My great-grandboss) and boss’ boss’ walk past boss’ office. GB just says hi, and continues on up the hall. GGB (An old, short, and kind of hateful man) stops and goes, “Boss, did you miss the meeting?” “No,” says Boss. “Well, you weren’t there.” No, says Boss, he wasn’t there, but he didn’t miss it. “Well, who’d you get permission from,” asks GGB. Boss says from his boss (Who is GGB’s son) Well, GGB is not having it. AT ALL. “In the future, if you are going to miss a meeting, you better ask the person leading the meeting. If you want to keep your job.” This was not said in his office in an attempt to be quiet. This was in the doorway of boss’s office, in front of the newsroom. Now, we all know that nothing’s going to actually happen, because we are basically working with a skeleton crew as is, but what GGB doesn’t realize, is that if he did fire boss, everyone else wouldn’t be able to work either.

    Someone came in to interview for the open reporter position. I went up front to make some copies (aka spy and make copies) after they called back to let Boss know that the person was here. They’d already gone into the conference room, but I asked the receptionist about the person. She gives me a physical description, and says that they seemed nice. I asked if she thought they could handle Jane, my new counterpart. She very sweetly answered that she thought they could handle Fergus just fine.

    Today, they moved our deadline two hours earlier than normal, because we’re having some sort of charity fundraiser cookout. Fine, cool. I get to see several people, including Boss, get pies to the face. Awesome. While I’m not thrilled about having to get up before six to get here an hour and a half earlier than I normally do. What I have a little more issue with, is that we have to do portions of the Sunday paper on Fridays. So after the party, which isn’t guaranteed to be much, we get to come back inside and work for another four hours while the rest of the building goes home. (Our proofreader asked what all this nonsense in the parking lot is about. He is clearly not impressed.)

    Fergus is bugging Jane. He asks all sorts of questions while she’s trying to work, none of which were about work. A few minutes ago, it’s about Spongeshow. I LOVE spongeshow, says Fergus. Do you think sponge is gay? “I do not care if he’s gay,” says Jane who is trying to work. “I think it’s stupid.” Fergus just walks two feet towards his desk, then turns and wants to know what cartoons I watched as a kid.

    Boss demands a 9v battery. I go and ask the guy in charge of the press, because he’s most likely to have one. He doesn’t. The front office doesn’t. Boss is freaking out. He needs a 9v, and he needs it now. He’s usually more even keeled than this, but I’m trying to find him one. No one in the building has one. Is there something we could take one out of? The guy who runs the press comes in, brandishing one. He remembered he’d had one under his car seat forever, but he tells Boss he’s not sure if it’s any good. Boss touches it to his tongue, and says it’s good. Then, you can see the expression on his face as he realizes he’s put something in his mouth that’s been on the floor of someone’s car for no one knows how long.

    Sigh. But I’m off tomorrow for the first time in months! *Happy dance*

    4. Snarky Librarian*

      Your serial stories of small town newsroom life are the highlight of my Mondays when I read through all the open threads! :)

  25. Master Bean Counter*

    Laptop Bags
    Employees have the flexibility to work from home. Who should provide the laptop bag to get the computer back and forth safely?
    Would it matter is the work from home option was part of an ADA accommodation?

    Thoughts?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think the company should provide the bag as the laptop is their equipment. However, I have bought my own bags (and other items) when I wanted something special or to maintain ownership if I ever left the job.

      I don’t think it should matter if the WFH is part of an accommodation – it’s their laptop, provide a bag to keep it safe.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      In my experience, the employer offers a very basic laptop bag, and the employee often splurges on something nicer instead.

      Tangent: What if the employee were taking hard copies home instead of a laptop? Who should be responsible for buying a briefcase?

      1. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

        I think that’s a great point. I mean, you can put a laptop in a grocery tote if you need to, which rain free from the sky nowadays. I think it’s wonderful when the company provides a sleeve/laptop bag, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect employees to figure it out for themselves.

    3. Temperance*

      We provide our own laptop bags unless we request to borrow one. IDK, it’s not a huge deal for me to buy my own bag if it helps me get flexibility I otherwise wouldn’t get to access.

    4. Susan Sto Helit*

      Company should provide the bag – but it will be a basic (ugly) bag.

      If you want something nicer/fancier, you get your own.

    5. TCO*

      I’ve had three jobs now with company-issued laptops, and in each one they provided the bag or sleeve, usually something I picked out to suit my preferences. (All of these jobs did require some off-site travel, so I needed the bag during the workday, not just to work from home.) Given the cost of a laptop, I think it’s a smart company investment to provide at least a basic bag to make sure their machines are protected.

    6. Construction Safety*

      If the company supplies the laptop, it’s their asset, they supply the bag.
      Although, if I could work from home, I’d be willing to supply a lot more than a bag.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My current company provided a (very basic but durable) bag. My last company did not. The company before allowed me to expense a decent laptop bag so I could attend meetings with a nice bag (their laptop was massive) and I sent it to them when I quit. I think it’s nice for the company to provide a bag, or to reimburse for one, but I think this is one of those areas where there’s no easily designated responsibility. If you require the laptop for company travel, then I think the company should cover it, but if it’s just for your own ability to work from home, then I can see having to provide your own bag.

    8. NYC Redhead*

      My company provides laptop bags but they are heavy and ugly, so most people buy their own.

      I’d happily buy my own bag in exchange for a WFH arrangement. ADA is trickier, but if I were the one getting the accommodation, I’d likely just buy my own anyway. (I use a sleeve from Amazon for about $10 inside a regular tote.)

    9. soon 2be former fed*

      Yes, I got a nice wheelie bag as part of an ADA accommodation. The standard bag was the one supplied by the manufacturer that slings over the shoulder.

    10. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      In my last job I worked 100% remotely (I was the only employee in my state) and traveled for work 50%… and they still didn’t provide a laptop bag, which was shocking to me. I bought myself a nice one, but I had assumed they would want to protect their computer.

    11. Adaline B.*

      I’m pretty fickle and change what I like in a bag a few times a year so I usually buy my own. I usually find pretty decent quality ones for $30-$50 on Amazon.

    12. I'm A Little Teapot*

      the company. If the employee doesn’t like the company provided one, they can get their own.

    13. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Need a laptop bag?… send me your address (not a real suggestion). I get a new one with each laptop and never use them instead opting to buy my own. I have stacks of them in various closets at home and stuffed into desk drawers at work and shoved into utility closets at work.

    14. you don't know me*

      It would be awesome if the employer provided the bag. At OldJob I was given a very expensive laptop straight out of the box and was told I’d need to bring it back and forth to work each day. I worked in the downtown of a city and my commute was a 45 minute walk through some not great areas. I was stunned. Did they expect me to throw it in a grocery store plastic bag to get home that day? I had to buy my own case but it took me a few days. Until then I refused to take it home and left it locked in my work cabinet at night.

      When I did get a bag it was more to keep the laptop from being damaged because I then put that bag in a backpack (as recommended by someone else who suggested that walking through these areas with a laptop bag is just as bad as if I carried with no bag at all.)

    15. Thlayli*

      If you want a decent bag you’re better off getting it yourself. When I had a traveling and working job I got a laptop bag issued with every laptop. But they were the standard over the shoulder awfully unergonomic ones. I use a laptop backpack which you can get decent ones quite cheap.

    16. Garland not Andrews*

      My work provides a bag when you receive your laptop. If necessary they also provide monitors (usually when there are extras around) and docking stations. We frequently have training that requires the use of your computer and a liberal telework policy so this makes sense.

    17. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Laptop should come with a bag. It is equipment for the work you do for your employer.

      I’ve never even questioned this. When I’ve needed a replacement, I got to the tech support and ask for one and if we are out, I order one and expense it. No one has pushed back on that at my firm.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        A previous job issued us all with company logo rucksacks with a special padded pocket for the laptop. To be on the safe side, I wrapped mine in an old pillowcase first.

    18. Anonymosity*

      Exjob provided backpacks to everyone. If you left the company, of course the backpack stayed.

    21. Observer*

      Supply the bag.

      There is a workplace law blog that I follow. In one post he mentioned a session that he attended where all the lawyers were going on about how the ADA doesn’t necessarily require that a company give a person their preferred accommodation. Then the General Counsel of a Fortune 500 company spoke up and said “Often, it’s not worth the fight. If an employee with a bad back asks for a chair. You know what? We give him the chair. It’s that easy.”

      You want that laptop taken care of, and you want it transported. Provide the bag and then you’ll know that it’s there and it is suitable. If you can’t spare the $20-50 for a bag, you’ve got bigger problems.

  26. I Hate Job Searching vol 8,792*

    Do you match your LinkedIn page with your resume or do you add more detail on LinkedIn? I have fairly short bullet points on my resume and skip a lot of the day to day tasks in favor of highlighting big projects and “procedural improvements”. On my LinkedIn page I have a ton more detail so maybe the projects don’t stand out as much. But of course the people who look at my profile usually do so after seeing my resume so I think of it as an addition to my resume rather than a first source. Is this a sensible plan or should I make my LinkedIn just as brief as the resume?

    Also the skills section of the profile – should I just be adding in every possible thing I can think of? Does anyone actually look at those?

    1. fromscratch*

      I’ve always been encouraged to see LinkedIn as an opportunity to provide even more detail that won’t fit or be appropriate on a resume. Add linkedin link to top of resume contact info. And then include specific details in the employment section on linkedin, like project info, stats, customer examples, etc.

    2. OhGee*

      My LinkedIn is more detailed (but not *too* detailed), particularly because I tailor my resume based on the particular needs of the job application (e.g. I have an extensive arts ed background that doesn’t apply to some of the work I’m pursuing now – it’s on my LI but not my resume).

    3. Flower vase*

      Hmm I kind of use linked in the opposite way. I just give job titles and employer, but I don’t use it for actively job seeking. I am squicked out by having a lot of details of my work semi-publicly available, and also I have noticed most senior people in my field use the sparse approach. It is only the junior people who put all the details. So even though I am kind of mid level I follow the lead of the senior people vs the junior.

      1. BeenThere*

        I’m with you. I have some info in there but I don’t even list which Agency I am with. The point is I am a Fed in Particular Position. I don’t need people creeping on my page getting information about me.

    4. Sam Foster*

      My LinkedIn is company, title and dates. Nothing else. My background is diverse enough that it’ll hurt me as I craft resumes to each position.

  27. Not Just An Admin*

    I got contacted on Wednesday (the day before going out of town for a wedding) about a job that fits RIGHT IN LINE with where I think I want my career to go, and have a phone screen on Wednesday afternoon. The position looks fantastic, but is with a major corporation I’ve heard mixed things about working there, despite the great benefits. However, my neighbor works for them, and she says turnover in my area is mostly due to people moving up, not out.. and upward movement is something I no longer have at my current company.

    Here’s hoping for some good stuff!

  28. Lisalee*

    Today’s letter about taking extended unpaid vacation has got me thinking. I’ve worked a few full-time jobs in various industries but I’m also a fiction writer on the side. I’ve come to realize that I’m really not built for 40-50 hour regular workweeks. Ideally I would like a job where I work 20-30 hours a week to have time to write, but I don’t want to go to shift work.

    Has anyone out there who has a creative side hustle managed to strike this balance? Or have you transistioned fairly early in your career to shorter hours? I would like to make this switch over the next 5 years but I’m not sure what roles I should be looking for.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      My agency has a couple of creatives (copy, art) who have managed to negotiate a reduced schedule with correspondingly reduced salary (and, depending on number of hours worked per week, loss of benefits).

      The people who successfully negotiate such agreements are ones who have a long history with the agency (or with people at the agency whom they have worked with before at other places, since the niche I work in is small and everybody ends up working with everybody else over the years). Advertising often requires late nights and last-minute priority changes, so it’s not possible to offer reduced schedules to more than a few workers (to ensure there’s always adequate coverage for surprises), and so those reduced schedules are offered only to rockstars whom we’d rather have 60% of the time than lose altogether.

      But this is how a small but growing number of creative types use advertising to support their real passion projects of novel writing, painting, etc.

      1. lisalee*

        Thanks for this perspective. It seems like most people who do this are later in their careers than I am and have the political capital to spend.

        Do you ever see people in your part of the industry doing extremely flexible schedules? Part of my issue with regular workweeks is I concentrate best in huge chunks, but only for limited days–I’ve often wished I could work 12-hour days instead with a shortened workweek.

      2. SoSo*

        I spent about 5 years with a college working 28 hours a week (with four, seven hour days). It was just how the position was structured. I didn’t get PTO or benefits, but it was really great while it lasted because I could balance so much extra stuff in my off time.

    2. Nita*

      Yes, my company has several people who have combined some kind of artistic career with a regular, part-time schedule for years. They’re on the support side of the business (graphics/report production) for the most part. Not directly client-facing, so it’s not a problem that they’re not in at all hours.

    3. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

      Honestly, I think full-time jobs should default to 30 hours a week. It seems inhumane to expect people to spend half their waking hours at work or commuting/getting ready.

      One option I’ve done before: still work 40 hours, but longer hours, so you get a weekend plus one other day off. This was the ideal arrangement for me; you can set up your schedule so you never work more than two days in a row.

      1. Anonymosity*

        This, and I don’t always need 40 hours a week to get all my work done (depending on the job, of course).

        I wrote most of a book on my lunch hours when I was at OldExjob.

      2. tangerineRose*

        I think most of us can get more done and put more energy into the work when there’s only 30 hours per week.

    4. Troutwaxer*

      If you have good technical skills there are services like GGE, Onforce and Workmarket which are kind of like Uber, but for computer/network techs. It helps to have an A+, Linux+, Network+, Cisco or Juniper certification, or any of the Microsoft certifications, or even college degree in IT. The pay can range from 20-75/hour and you have to own the right tools, a good ladder, and a reliable car. You may have to make unpaid drives of up to 100 miles for this kind of work, but you can support yourself doing this. Note that you get a 1099 at the end of the year and no taxes are taken out, so you have to manage this aspect of things on your own.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      The folks that I know who have managed this tend to have skills in a free-lance appropriate skillset and do independent contract work for their ‘job’. Graphics design, web design, coding, marketing, or database work all have decent opportunities to setup an income stream that lets you define your own commitment.

    6. Jillociraptor*

      In my last position I had a second job doing some regular consulting. After being there for about two years, I negotiated to have half-day Fridays. It still kept me at full enough time that I kept my benefits but also gave me some extra time to work on my side hustle. Depending on where you work and how well you perform, it can be an option to have your job kind of bend to you with an adapted schedule or a job-share scheme rather than finding a new position that’s already written as part-time.

  29. Deryn*

    I had an odd interaction with a candidate while interviewing this week. This is maybe going to take a lot of set up/context, but I’ve been laughing to myself about it for a few days now. I work at a large research hospital, and our (fairly small) team is looking to replace one member who is leaving and add a few more staff and student positions, as we recently got funding to begin an additional study. My title is technically related to clinical trials, but functionally “lab manager.” This week we interviewed a woman who works on a different team that we have collaborated with before (they do some studies that have overlapping components with ours, though in different populations). She has a strong recommendation from her PI, who we definitely trust, and she had a great interview with my PI. After her interview, my PI brought her to my desk for a less formal interview – my role in it is more to just chat with her for a bit, talk about more of the daily tasks in detail, and get a feel for her personality and how she might fit with our group. So I’ve been talking with this woman for just a few minutes about which prior studies she’s been on, her role with them, challenges they’ve been having, etc., when she wraps up the topic at hand and says, “Well, I don’t want to keep you away from your work too long, thanks so much for taking the time to meet me!” and shakes my hand and heads out!

    If she didn’t come from a team I trust and hadn’t interviewed well with my PI (who does the heavy lifting on the interviewing front), I’d be a little put off by this, but I truly don’t think she realized that A) this was part of the actual interview or that B) I would be her supervisor here. Knowing how casual my PI is, I’m almost CERTAIN what she said to this woman was something along the lines of, “I’ll take you over to Deryn so you can meet her and talk a little – she also works on this project!” On top of that, I know most people mistake me for quite young and/or a student (to be fair, I am quite young, though not so young as people think) and in the context of a lab that employs students and a lot of entry level recent grads, I don’t exactly stick out in that respect. With that context, I can completely see how “informal interview with lab manager” could easily be confused for “dropping by to introduce you to another staff member you’d be working with.” She seemed otherwise very professional, so I’m sure she’d be mortified if she realized she’d just inadvertently shut down part of an interview lol. I know I would be!

    (It did occur to me later that she was maybe trying to tactfully duck out of an interview she was no longer interested in, but yesterday she sent me a thank you email and asked if I could help her find the link for the online job posting, so that probably wasn’t it lol)

    1. Myrin*

      That’s strangely hilarious.

      And I really think that’s partly on her and partly on the PI. Your PI should’ve been way clearer about the talk with you being part of the interview – on the other hand, it also seems like candidate could’ve gleaned that from context alone (why should an interviewer bring you to talk to some random coworker directly after the interview if it weren’t somehow related to the interview?).

      I’m trying to imagine your face at the very moment – were you dumbfounded? Trying to stop her but she was out like the wind? Did you dissolve into giggles?

      1. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

        I used to try to soft-pedal “interview” language on the premise that people get nervous in interviews in a way they might not if they’re told it’s a “quick, casual chat” but I’ve found for many people it’s the opposite: their gut is telling them it’s an interview, but I’m not, and the dissonance is driving them internally batty. So now I just call it an interview and try to put them at ease in other ways!

        1. Deryn*

          Ohhhhh yes, will definitely be throwing in some “this is part of the interview” language at the beginning of conversations from now on!

      2. Deryn*

        Definitely pretty dumbfounded! Did a litttle internal scrambling and finally defaulted to something along the lines of, “Okay, good to meet you!” …Then sat down at my desk and felt like Jim looking into the camera on The Office. I’ve been laughing to myself off an on for nearly two days now.

    2. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

      My instinct is that she’s maybe an over-talker and her PI (or someone else) gave her a polite heads-up like “We’d love you to talk with Deryn really quickly; they’re really busy, but you’d be working closely with them so I want you to just have a super quick convo…” and so they were on notice to be quick about it?

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I think she was inadvertently set up for confusion, it sounds like it wasn’t clear that you were part of the formal interview as you said. Don’t you set expectations at the beginning? “You and I will speak first then I’m going to ask Deryn to spend some time with you. The position reports to Deryn” or something like that.

      I feel terrible for the candidate. Isn’t it also a little weird to have a person brought to a desk for part of the interview. Not sure why but I’m imagining your desk is not an office.

      1. Deryn*

        I agree that it should have been more clear. I don’t sit in with my PI for her interview, so I can only hope she says something like that! And you’re correct – my desk is not an office. We’re in sort of a weird building that doesn’t have a good private spot that’s available for us to use.

        I wouldn’t feel terrible for her! I really don’t think she thought anything was amiss, and I’m not holding it against her at all.

        1. Dealtwiththis*

          That’s nice that you aren’t holding it against her but…. isn’t it kinda condescending? She’s blatantly showing that she doesn’t think speaking with colleagues that are “beneath” her is worth her time. Even if you were just a future colleague, she is at an interview and should be interested in meeting the entire team, not just those in positions of authority. Right?

          1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

            I don’t think this is the case, she was probably thinking that she was wasting Deryn’s time!

          2. Deryn*

            I see your point, but that wasn’t my take on the interaction. I think she was expecting more of “say hi” introduction and then I started having a more in-depth conversation (coupled with the fact that we were at my desk area), so when she said, “I don’t want to keep you from your work too long!” I think it’s likely that she truly thought she was distracting me, had interrupted me in the middle of something important, or was otherwise over-staying her welcome. It’s worth noting here that she didn’t just cut me off mid-sentence or anything egregious like that. The current topic we were discussing was drawing to a close, and while I would have asked another question next in this particular scenario, in the normal rhythm of a casual conversation it would have been a normal place to wrap things up. I suppose it’s always possible, but taken with my overall conversation with her and everything else I know about her, that wasn’t my impression at all.

    4. Yard Arm*

      Oh, that poor candidate! Interviews where the interviewers don’t make the structure and expectations clear are the worst!

    5. BeenThere*

      I think you got it right. She was trying to be courteous of your time, not realizing this was part of the interview. I kind of like that about her… she perhaps won’t waste a lot of time just chatting and knows how to end a conversation so people can get back to work!!

  30. Persimmons*

    Does anyone have experience with the accuracy/lack thereof for the “estimated salary range” on Glassdoor job postings?

    1. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

      I don’t have *vast* experience with this, but they are reasonably accurate in my experience. If you see numbers that really seem wrong based on your own knowledge, it’s worth considering that, but if you’re trying to get a salary range for a job that you don’t know a ton about, compensation-wise, I think they’re worth considering. Especially if it’s a common-ish job title and in the knowledge work area (I think Glassdoor is used more by urban-ish professionals, and thus they have more data points for the types of jobs those folks tend to have).

    2. Ranon*

      My spouse has worked with similar sets of self reported data and his take is “not at all accurate, basically made up, no really it’s actually garbage that just looks vaguely credible” But if it’s all you’ve got, it’s all you’ve got!

    3. The New Wanderer*

      My one example where the salary estimate might have been relevant is from a job I interviewed for. The GD estimated salary was about $40k below what I thought the range would be, based on location (major HCOL city), field (tech), and job description (senior level responsibilities). The job title is probably what the estimate was based on – other jobs with that same title, lacking a “Senior” designation, would probably pay around the estimate but they would also have a job description with fewer or lower level responsibilities. When asked, I gave the range I thought it should pay and that was acceptable to HR, though since I didn’t get the offer I don’t know what the actual salary would have been.

      So, my guess is that the est salary range comes from reported salaries using job titles only, and might not take location into consideration if there’s not enough data to draw from.

    4. Evil HR Person*

      Glassdoor is okay; Payscale is so-so; stay away from Salary.com – that one is WAY off and always quotes much higher than it should for the market. I, personally, use O*net (onetonline.org). That one will give you WAY more information by region within your state, and it’s much more accurate than anything else I’ve seen.

      1. whistle*

        That’s interesting. I’ve found salary.com to be way more accurate than payscale for certain positions, particularly ones where the market rate has gone up recently. YMMV of course :)

    5. Chaordic One*

      I’ve found it to be reasonably accurate, the only caveat being that since most of the salaries listed are up to 2 to 3 years old, the information is not up-to-date and on the low side.

      OTOH, I’ve often heard employers complain that the salaries were inflated and created unrealistic expectations from job seekers.

  31. straws*

    I recently found out through the “facebook vine” that a friend of a friend applied to a job opening that I’ll be involved in. The applicant is currently pregnant, and I scrolled by a note that she had posted about being concerned. The friend addressed that it would be illegal to discriminate for that (and she wouldn’t be our first pregnant hire anyway). I don’t know if she’s even qualified, but it got me to thinking on the theoretical level, and I was curious about how others would handle the following 2 issues:

    1) We’re extremely small and our maternity policy would not apply to a new hire. We’re very focused on work-life balance, so we’d absolutely work with her the best we could, but I’d also want to be up front about that so she could make an informed decision, should she become our top candidate. Is that appropriate to bring up if she didn’t ask for some reason? And if so, what’s a kind way to say “as a new hire, we’re not going to be able to give you as much time off as you probably want.”?

    2) A major reason for this hire, ironically, is so we have coverage while a current employee is out on maternity leave. If the leave periods end up overlapping, that would be a huge issue for us. Would it be reasonable to say that part of the job requirement is available during a particular month? It would be the same problem if someone brought up a pre planned, long vacation or scheduled surgery. We have no issues hiring someone who is pregnant, but we’d be hard pressed to hire someone with the knowledge that they’d likely have to be out during the time we hired them to cover.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      In regards to #2, yes, I think it’s perfectly valid to say “part of this position’s responsibility is to cover for the upcoming maternity leave of our Supervisor which will start in Dec 2018 and go through March 2019.” And, in fact, it’s probably something you should communicate to everyone you interview for this position.

      1. straws*

        That’s a good point. We’ve just started recruiting and planning out the interview process. I will make sure that is on the hiring manager’s list of items to address, if it’s not already.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      1) If you discuss benefits during an interview (and I hope you do), it’s appropriate (very much so, IMHO) to point out that some of the benefits won’t kick in until you’ve worked there for a year, or whatever.

      2) Considering why you’re hiring this person, I think it’s appropriate to say “it’s very important that our new hire be in the office during the entire month of October.” It’s no different from saying “we throw a big conference in October and we need all hands on deck during that month.”

      1. straws*

        We do give a brief overview of our benefits, and we offer to let them review our handbook if they want to check out anything in more detail. I guess my concern is that she’ll obviously not be eligible but will definitely need time to recover and bond, but it could be difficult for her to ask directly about what she can expect. It feels off to be vague about it, but invasive to get into specifics (unless she asks, which I hope she will if it gets that far!)

        Also a good point for #2, and I’ll be adding that to my list of items to make sure the candidate is aware of!

    3. Thlayli*

      Mention the time she absolutely needs to be in the office, but don’t go into anything specific about pregnancy unless she brings it up. The offer stage is the time to discuss those things.

      She may well be able to self-fund some unpaid leave so you should consider what duration of unpaid leave you would accept. It’s conmon for pregnant new starts to negotiate additional one-off benefits as part of the starting package, if both sides can work with that. Eg additional unpaid (or even paid) time that would be specific to that particular pregnancy only. Generally this is only if the person is really good and they conpany really wants them though.

    4. Observer*

      As the others say, just put it out there to every single candidate, if it’s really non-negotiable.

      As for the rest – unless it’s something you would discuss with any candidate, do NOT do this. I’d hope she would have enough sense to ask at the point of an offer, but before she takes the job, should it come to that.

  33. Secretary*

    How do you find ways to make sure your boss knows you respect them without looking like you’re sucking up to them?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think just doing your job well is good enough. My boss has often commented that he is super appreciative of the fact that I “just do what is asked and don’t argue about it”. It seems he used to work with people who would question and argue every single little thing, instead of just saying “okay” and getting the work done. I don’t think any overt demonstrations of respect are necessary, just do your job well and be easy to work with.

    2. Teapot librarian*

      Respond to their emails; don’t write in your self-evaluation that you know better than them; show up to meetings with them on time; don’t roll your eyes at them; if you do need to disagree with how they dealt with something, don’t do it in front of the entire staff…

    3. Deryn*

      I think a sincere and specific “thank you” at an appropriate time can go a long way. Something like, “Thanks for your feedback on XYZ task – I know it took some time out of your day, and I really appreciate being able to learn from your insights,” or whatever the case may be. That said, it might not be appropriate in all situations (e.g., routine tasks), and I would refrain from getting too long winded or frequent with the thank yous.

      1. Bostonian*

        Yeah, I agree with the feedback being specific to a project or event. Whenever my group goes through a tough time/decision, I let my boss know that I think she made the right choice. She seems to appreciate that.

      2. Logan*

        Yes, I tell my bosses that I appreciate them in specific ways, and how it impacts me, and I have never been accused of sucking up (I try harder to do this with people new to management, in order to reinforce good behaviours). I also criticize in specific ways, with examples if possible, when it’s warranted (and has any hope of being fixed), and have been told that my input is well balanced and appreciated. Not every work culture will do well with feedback, but if they are reasonable people then I believe that being specific makes all the difference. As a recent example:
        “I really appreciate your feedback with X problem, as it allowed me better understand the larger context. And please know that I’m open to more in future.”

    4. NW Mossy*

      Here are ways my directs show it to me:

      * They listen and respond appropriately to what I’m saying, and when they disagree, they do so constructively.
      * They incorporate feedback I provide in ways that let me see their growth and progress.
      * They use good judgment in determining what sorts of issues they can handle themselves vs. those that warrant escalation to me.
      * When they particularly appreciate something I’ve done or said, they make a point of acknowledging that.
      * They show respect for their teammates and others they work with as well.

  34. Job Searching in Jacksonville*

    I had a interview yesterday, and my interviewers name was only said at the beginning of an interview and I didn’t get a business card. When I emailed the HR contact to send a thank you note, I found out that I misremembered my interviewers name. HR didn’t send my note on and sent me the correct contact info so I could send it myself and I fixed the error before I sent her my note. Would that be held against me? I really didn’t mean to miss her name.

    1. Teapot librarian*

      She won’t know, and HR won’t have enough input into the hiring decision for it to even come up. I think you’ll be fine. Good luck!

    2. Elizabeth Hachet, The Silly One*

      It’s possible, but I wouldn’t hold it too far against you. People are human and make mistakes. I’ll be curious to know what everyone else says, though!

    3. Murphy*

      I don’t think anyone reasonable would hold that against you. HR sent you the contact info so you could send it yourself, which was nice.

    4. Thlayli*

      If they were going to hold it against you, they wouldn’t have sent it back to you to fix.

    5. Evil HR Person*

      As evil as we can be, we’re not in the business of NOT hiring! We’d rather find people whose skills are the right match for the job and who seem like a good culture fit. If the HR person had not responded, I’d worry but only a little bit. But the fact that she did respond and sent you the correct information means that she WANTS you to make a good impression, and she just helped you do that. It’s all good!

  35. Employee relationships*

    Race/sex question: I’m the director of a small office within a much larger organization. My office is the only one in our building, and I am the only manager. When I started about three years ago, I inherited only long-time employees. All of those employees are still here, and I now have one additional employee who has been here less than two months. In the interim, I had another new employee who ended up resigning for health reasons. I have a cordial, professional relationship with the long-time staff, and have had much friendlier relationships with the new employees. With the first new employee, I was not concerned about the different relationship because he belonged to many of the same demographic categories as my long-time employees. My new new employee matches me demographically, so now I’m very conscious that it could look like I favor her because of those similarities. I would love advice on how to either develop more friendly relationships (while still appropriate as the manager) with the long-time staff, some or most of whom I think resented me when I was hired (or might still resent me), or how to keep my relationship with my new employee a bit more distant when we have similar interests that are often connected to our work, so work conversations end up veering into non-work areas. Thank you, brilliant people!

    1. Holly*

      I’m a little confused here. Is everyone doing the same job? Then how is there similar interests connected to the work? It seems like you’re saying you have more friendly relationships with staff of X background than Y background. I’d recommend doing some brainstorming as to why that is and if it could be assumptions you’re making or vibes you’re giving off.

      Second, I think you’re looking at this completely the wrong way. You don’t need to force being distant or closer to certain people, especially if you feel resented for other reasons. You just need to make sure you’re friendly to everyone and don’t make employment decisions that are not directly related to work performance. For example, “I like having A person around because we love talking about B, so I think I’ll ask her to work on this new assignment with me” when B is not related to A’s performance.

      1. Employee relationships*

        No, not everyone does the same job. Actually each person in the office has a very distinct role.
        But you’re right, it does feel like I have more friendly relationships with staff of X background than Y background, except that I had the same more friendly relationship with the interim employee who is of Y background. Is it because she’s new and I talk to her more because I need to give her direction that my other employees don’t need? Is it because I’m a bad manager and it’s easier to manage her because she’s new? Am I racist or sexist or an education snob? I just don’t know.

        1. WellRed*

          I am guessing its more that it’s been easier to have a friendly relationship because she’s new. It doesn’t sound like the long timers have given you any…inroads.

        2. Someone else*

          I’m going to put some fake examples in, instead of the xyz just to see if I’m following your question. So let’s say you’re a white Ivy Leaguer who likes baseball. And new hire is also a white Ivy Leaguer who likes baseball. Interim previous person was a POC not-Ivy who liked baseball. You bonded with both over the baseball but are worried it is perceived (or true) that the bonding with new hire is more about the white Ivy angle than the baseball? Especially because rest-of-staff are mostly POC and not Ivy (and you haven’t gotten to know them well enough to know if they like baseball, possibly because you didn’t have to train them so less facetime, possibly other reasons that are the whole point of you asking)? Do I have the situation right?

          1. Someone else*

            (I don’t mean literally right, just that my fake examples roughly describe the nature of the situation.)

    2. Thlayli*

      I think you need to keep an appropriate limit on the level of friendliness that every boss should have. But other than that, you don’t need to be equally friendly with everyone. So long as you’re not having long laughing chats about personal stuff I don’t think it makes a difference if you have a short exchange with them about outside of work stuff, and just talk about work stuff with the others.

      However, I don’t live in a country with a big racial divide so I could be way Off base.

      Regarding making better relationships. The key go-to phrase is “how was your weekend” (mon-tue) or “any plans for the weekend” (wed – fri). Then listen. Respond appropriately. And remember. Next week “how did [plans] go?” People really love it when you remember their name and something about them.

    3. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      You say you have a cordial, PROFESSIONAL relationship with the long-time staff. The key now is to place the emphasis on PROFESSIONAL–with ALL of the employees. Say good morning (and good evening) to all the employees. Ask very general questions about how they are and be available (for work-related stuff) for all of them. If there’s a disagreement among them, you have to be fair and here all sides of the story. You get the idea.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I had some folks that I liked better than other folks. I was worried it would show. So my self-check was, “Would I do this for everyone?”.
        I found it helpful when I had to correct things also. I would tell myself “If this person was one of the people I liked more how would I handle this?” Conversely if it was one of the people that I did like more, I would ask myself, “Okay, how would I handle this if it involved a person I did not like so much?”

        These led me to developing my own guidelines for how I handled situations. The recurring situations were easier because I had to develop my guideline for it right away. The unusual situations were a little harder because they were uncharted territory. I would go back to my question, “Would I do this for everyone?”

        Little by little I had less and less quandary. Being late was not acceptable by company standards. I had to tell each person they must be on time.
        But in a different case, one of my favorite people was sick of doing Task X. Now what do I do? This is my best worker, I don’t want to tick her off but I have to be fair. So I looked at Task X. Yeah, it’s miserable but it has to be done. Well, maybe we can rotate through and people can take turns doing Task X. The overall point is valid that the task is terrible, why not even the load for everyone not just for my best worker. Some times you can check to see if there is an overall point that most people would agree on and make a decision that responds to the overall point rather than responding to that particular favorite person. A good question for stuff like this is “what is good for my group?”

        If you catch yourself stopping to chat with Sue, then you use that as a memory prompt to remind yourself, “I must seek out Bob and chat with him. I have not spent any time talking to him in the last couple days.”

        Honestly, when you try to keep the playing field level like this you will end up busier and there will be less time for you to spend with some people and skip others.
        If your work allows people to pair up on projects, mix the paring. Put Sue with Bob for one project and for the next project have them work with other people. See the trick here is that your favorite people end up really knowing these other people. And you get to see these other people through the eyes of your favorite people, which does help. When Sue comes back to you and says Bob is unusually good at X, Y and Z, you just learned something about Bob that you may not have known any other way.

        There are some people who are just plain at ease around bosses. And there are some people who struggle not to say, “ma’am” or “sir” too much when speaking to a boss. Watch out for liking people just because they are more at ease with you. Their ease or discomfort should not weigh in anywhere. Matter of fact, if they are too at ease that needs to be fixed and if they are too uncomfortable that needs to be worked on also. Keep at the forefront of your thinking that the best thing you can do for them is to be a good boss to them no matter how they present themselves to you.

    4. Logan*

      I’m closer to some managers than others, due to our similarities (minorities in a skewed work environment). I also see the same with other colleagues / managers, for different reasons. I don’t resent it, and no one else seems to have an issue with it, provided that the relationship is more friendly than friends (talking about something at lunch hour is different from making plans after work), and you treat everyone professionally and reasonably equally (distribution of work is fair, and bad behaviours are addressed). It can be hard to behave the exact same way with everyone when there is someone new, as you need to spend more time with them anyway for training, and there is something really nice about a new and excited face when all the other employees are cynical. My suggestion would be to continue treating your current employees the same way as you have previously (they might find it weird if you suddenly want to be a lot friendlier), and talking with your new employee about non-work topics would be fine provided that they aren’t personal, so no talking about your relationships but thumbs-up for new statistical techniques or cloud research, and ideally you could have those chats in an environment where others feel that they can join.

  36. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    So I’m aware there was already a post by Alison saying not to put union membership on your resume, however, that post seemed to be specifically talking about people who were just members and not actively involved. I have been doing political volunteer work on behalf on my union (canvassing, interviewing candidates for endorsement), have attended a conference representing them, and I am considering becoming a steward. Can I put my involvement down, and if so, how should I list it?

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      Maybe I’m cynical, but I would be worried about active involvement in a union counting against me.

      1. Holly*

        It wouldn’t be just self-selecting out of an anti-union organization. There could be a specific individual in HR who doesn’t like the politics or politics on resumes no matter what it is.

        Or, political volunteer work is irrelevant to the job OP is applying for and is a waste of space. It really depends on the field and type of work.

    3. BuffaLove*

      I think this is probably really field-dependent. I work for a state government agency where it’s generally seen as a neutral-to-positive thing to be involved in the union, since basically everyone is in the union (although that may change now with the Janus ruling) and we need a few local stewards, so it’s usually the go-getters who get involved. I’d keep it very brief (and honestly, I probably wouldn’t bother listing it unless you end up becoming a steward) and let the interviewer ask for more details if they’re interested.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        Yes, I work for a state agency currently and plan to stay in the public sector for the forseeable future.

    4. Holly*

      Honestly… that is worse. Unless you’re going to a specifically pro-union environment like literally a law office that represents union workers, or a union itself, or an elected official who is vocal about union support, something where that is a *specific* asset, don’t include it! It’s like if I put down “Hillary Clinton 2016 Lead Volunteer.” There are plenty of places who would love to see that (political/non-profit world for instance). But the MAJORITY of neutral not political employers would find it irrelevant at best, and overly political and alienating at worst.

    5. Holly*

      Honestly? That is worse. I would only do this if you’re applying for a job at a union or something else where it’s a specific asset (law office that represents unions, non-profit that often works with unions, etc). At best it’s irrelevant to most non-political jobs, and at worst it’s going to be seen as overly political or alienating even at jobs that aren’t specifically anti-union. It’s like putting a on your resume that you’re a volunteer shift leader for a political campaign. Might be an asset at political-adjacent or volunteer-adjacent positions, but it’s just going to look irrelevant or at worst controversial for a neutral office job.

    7. Chaordic One*

      Generally speaking, it’s the kind of thing you’d put on a resume if you really didn’t want the job. Like if you had to meet an application requirement to qualify for unemployment insurance benefits.

    8. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      Sorry, I should have clarified this earlier: I am a public sector employee and plan to stay in the public sector for the forseeable future. So the advice about private sector/non-political work doesn’t apply to me. My bad for not stating that earlier though. I do appreciate everyone who has taken the time to respond.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Just a general thought. What are you trying to convey by talking about your union work? Just to have an example let’s say you want people to know that you are super organized. My advice would be to find other ways to show that you are super organized with your regular work. I would ask myself, “Why would this particular hiring manager want to know [union accomplishment] about me?” If I could not answer that question, I would leave the example off the resume.

      2. Logan*

        I wouldn’t put it on the resume, but would mention it in the interview (or possibly the cover letter) if there was a relevant way in which it helped answer an interview question. So if they ask about specific examples of managing conflict, then you might have relevant experience in how you represented someone difficult. My reluctance to mention it on the resume is because it typically doesn’t take up a lot of one’s time, so in comparison to all your other experience it likely doesn’t warrant the space. But in your specific situation it might work.

        I ‘volunteer’ at something work-related (work pays me, so it’s not exactly volunteer, but it’s not part of my typical work duties), and I used a colleague from that experience as a reference.

      3. Trisha*

        Yes – if you’re in the Public Sector and you’ve done union work – include it. It’s the one place it won’t really count against you. Everyone is in the union and if the hiring committee tried to use that as a deciding factor on not hiring you, it could lead to a grievance.

  37. Summer, In Chicago*

    I’m waiting on H/R to email me back about a co-worker threatening another co-worker who submitted a complaint about her. Today is LOVELY. How is your day? ;=;

    1. Windchime*

      That would be considered retaliation where I work, which is a fireable offense. I hope that HR does their job and takes care of this.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        I’m confused on the order of events (complaint then threat, or threat than complaint), but either way, hopefully HR is on the ball.

  38. Help*

    My department is very small- it’s just me and my co-worker “Lisa”. She has been with the company for about 10 years, while I have only been there for 8 months.

    My boss put me on a team to develop new teapot software and configure it and Lisa is not happy.

    For whatever reason, Lisa was not chosen to be on the team. The boss has me on the team and said that he knows I can handle the project and sees this as a good career move, but Lisa has been hot/cold towards me. She was talking to me today about the project and wondered why she wasn’t on the team or couldn’t help out.

    I understand why she is upset, but I don’t know what to do.

    Is this something that we all need to sit down and discuss with the boss? Is there anything that I should say or do?

    1. Myrin*

      I feel like this is between your boss and Lisa, and also like that’s exactly what you should say when Lisa brings up her musings about not being on the team again: “I don’t know, you’ll need to ask boss about this.”

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I wouldn’t do anything other than just continue to be pleasant and professional to Lisa. It sucks when you’ve been somewhere for a long time and don’t get a chance like that, but those are her feelings to manage. If anyone needs to discuss anything, that should be between Lisa and the boss. If she asks you why she wasn’t put on the team, I would just (on repeat) say, “You’ll have to talk to Boss about that.”

      1. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

        I agree with this. Plus, it sounds like you actually don’t know the answer so you’re off the hook there.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Did this just happen? If so, I’d give Lisa a week or two to work through her feelings. If it goes longer than that, then yeah, you probably need to mention it to your boss.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Was this the first time she’d made such a comment? If so, I’d probably let it slide this time. If it becomes an ongoing issue or seriously impacts your work somehow (she ignores your requests, etc), then you will need to bring it up with your boss.

    4. Thlayli*

      All you can do is say “I don’t know, I’m just doing what I was told. If you think you should have been on the team ask boss about it.”.

    5. msroboto*

      Is it possible that Lisa is a subject matter expert in legacy products and actually is not really available? In software it is quite common that as you become expert the boss may find it difficult if not impossible to move a long time team member. This often backfires as long term valuable person leaves to find new opportunities that are more interesting oh and probably pay better.

    6. Argh!*

      Sometimes life is just not fair. I’ve been excluded from a committee that has continuously made things difficult for my corner of the world. I have asked my boss if I can be added (or one of my coworkers who is also irked) and so far no go. So… I have to send suggestions to the chair of the committee, who is very rigid, doesn’t know anything at all about my/our area, doesn’t give a crap, and blows off all of our ideas, suggestions & comments. Grandboss doesn’t like me, but my coworker is one of his pets, and a favorite of my boss, so seeing that she’s being treated the same way just indicates a preference on the part of the powers-that-be for everything else and no interest in the area of our expertise. I’ve come to understand that it’s not personal, but it’s certainly unproductive and frustrating.

      You probably don’t know enough about the project or your workplace to be of any help to Lisa. She needs to talk to her boss.

  39. Windchime*

    I’m trying to get up my nerve to ask my employer if I can begin working remotely. There is nothing in the official “remote work” policy to prevent it, but our department has an unofficial policy of allowing only one regular WFH day per week. I would eventually like to relocate to a different city that’s two hours away, but I really like my team and the retirement plan at my current job is amazing. What’s the best way to go about bringing this up? I don’t want to signal to my boss (who is also amazing) that I’ve got one foot out the door because I really don’t. But I would like to start to think about moving sometime in the next year or so. Ideas?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Can you just be forthright about wanting to move two hours away but genuinely not wanting to leav altogether? Start with two days a week as a trial run with some explicit deliverables?

      1. Windchime*

        That’s kind of what I was thinking, asking if we could do a “pilot” or a test. I normally work Friday’s at home and maybe I could add another day or two for a trial period. If it isn’t working out, then she can rescind the trial. If it does work out and I go full-time remote, I could be in the office for like 3-4 days per month by driving to Seattle and staying for several days in a row. I just am worried about freaking her out; her team size recently doubled and I don’t want to give her something to worry about on top of having to manage a ton more people.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I understand she has a lot of stuff going on, but honestly that’s part of a manager’s job—to manage people and things. She doesn’t have to worry about it. She can just give you an answer of “Yes” or “No.” Or even “No, for now, because I have too much on plate to give it the proper consideration.”

          I recently asked my boss for some remote-work days for travel… yes, honestly for just travel, because we don’t get a lot of vacation days. My boss and I talked about some deliverables for me to work on while traveling, and it worked out great. Not saying your situation will work the same way, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    2. LDN Layabout*

      When discussing with your boss, I’d also make it clear how important the job is to you, but also clarify it in your head first:

      If it came down to choosing between moving and staying at your job, for the next few years, what would win out?

      1. Windchime*

        Unfortunately, probably moving. I could get a job that pays a lot less than this one in my new location and still have a better standard of living. But I would love to keep the pay, benefits, and coworkers from this job! :)

        1. LDN Layabout*

          In that case, I think it then depends on your relationship with your manager and how your work is seen (aka you don’t want to risk losing the job before you choose to move, if you think that’s a possibility).

          Once you can tell them a timeline such as ‘I’m looking to move in ___, but I’d love to stay on.’. I’d say maybe 6 months? Far enough out to test increased WFH, close enough that if you start getting eased out it wouldn’t be too bad.

    3. OhGee*

      So, I did this. I work in an expensive East Coast city and bought a home out of state. It’s 90 minutes to 2.5 hours each way, depending on traffic (I could take a train, but my workplace’s stingy transportation reimbursement means it would cost me several hundred dollars a month in gas, parking, and train fares, AFTER the amount they reimburse). I did it for a few months, watched the terrible effect it had on my life, and sent a reasonable proposal to my boss for increased remote time. I outlined the cost of train commuting and the effect of the commute (I’m out of the house a minimum of 12 hours a day traveling to/from and being at work). I got the ok to work from home 3 days a week instead of 1, on a trial basis for 3 months. I’ve also managed to go full time remote moving across the country – I essentially said, I’m moving and would like to continue to work for this company, is that possible? Turns out it was. In both cases I was employed at the org more than 2 years before I proposed it. Full time remote might be tougher if you’re ‘only’ moving 2 hours away, but it’s worth asking. Proposing ways to stay accountable / agreements about coming to the office under certain circumstances is a good idea. I don’t think you should do it until you’re going to move, but that’s just me. Good luck!

      1. Windchime*

        Thanks! Yeah, it’s “only” two hours away but that’s because it’s on a freeway that’s 70 mph — it’s 142 miles away. So it’s not really a practical distance to drive; with traffic, it would easily become 3 hours or more each way.

        I can’t really move without a job, and this is the job I want. I’m confident that my manager would not try to ease me out; I think she would be alarmed and do what she could to keep me, but she might not have the power to give me full time remote work. I think I’m going to just have to ask her and see what she thinks.

  40. Merida Ann*

    My earbuds have been my best friends at work this week. Between one coworker who keeps going on rants about random semi-political topics, the guy in the next office who several mundane phone calls from his wife every day (“how was your drive to work”, “do you want anything specific for dinner tonight”, “just thought I’d call and say hey”, etc. – every day), the guy whose laugh sounds like a breathless wheeze yet somehow carries over everything, my coworkers’ general fondness for speakerphone conversations, and just the usual hallway chatter, I’ve just needed to block out everything to be able to focus at all.

    I do have my own office with a door, technically, but our office culture is to leave the door open if we’re here other than occasionally for sensitive phone calls and a closed door is usually a clear signal that you’re out doing field work, and since I don’t have any current tasks out of the office, it would look weird. But having music on with my earbuds blocks probably about 80% of the noise, which is usually enough for me. (I can’t do noise-cancelling headphones, because I do need to be able to hear if a PA announcement is made.)

    Stemming from that: Any tips for good Pandora stations to listen to at work? I prefer instrumental music because I find it easier to focus without lyrics, but I need it be upbeat enough to actually block all the chatter and also to not lull me to sleep. I’m currently listening to a station based on The Piano Guys and my other favorites are Escala and Lindsey Sterling, but I’d love any other recommendations. Thanks. :)

    1. SoSo*

      My recommendation would be Walt Ribeiro… His stuff is all on Spotify, but he makes/covers instrumental/orchestra versions of popular songs. He’s got a pretty extensive catalog and I really enjoy listening to his stuff when I need to be extra focused.

    2. Rey*

      I like Doug Hammer :) (Good luck with the noise! My coworker talks to herself constantly, so my earbuds are a must at this point.)

    3. Laura H.*

      Film scores might be a mixed bag… I enjoy them but I always enjoy when the POTC theme shows up so I’m kinda biased.

      1. Merida Ann*

        I love film score music, and PotC is one of my absolute favorites (that was what we played as our marching band show my first year of high school)! But I’ve found that they tend to vary too much in volume and emotional tone to use at work, unfortunately.

    4. Mockingjay*

      I also listen to instrumental music all day long to focus. I switched from Pandora to Spotify. I think Spotify offers a bigger playlist and their algorithms provide amazing new selections to try. Spotify has a large number of channels grouped by Genres and Moods, such as Focus, Chill, Classical, Mood. Each genre includes tons of playlists. Spotify also offers Podcasts that I listen to in the car, including AAM!

      I have been using Spotify Free for about 4 years. I keep meaning to upgrade to Premium, but I am so happy with the free service I haven’t bothered.

    5. ScienceLady*

      There is a fun one called Instrumental Covers on Pandora; it’s poppier songs with all instrumentals – I love it on occasion!

    6. Jaid_Diah*

      Would Bollywood music be ok? Or any other foreign music where you wouldn’t understand the words?
      I also like Mongolian Throat Singing…

      1. Merida Ann*

        Ooh, I’m not sure. I’ll check those out and see how they work for me. Thanks!

      2. Windchime*

        I used to work with a guy who loved Spanish-language music. He didn’t understand a word of Spanish, but he just loved the sound of it and the vibe, so he would listen to it all the time. It wasn’t distracting (to him) because he couldn’t understand the words.

    8. Happy Friday!*

      I use Spotify, but I recommend Explosions in the Sky! Instrumental and upbeat.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I regularly listen to a classical music radio station and they frequently play excerpts from the “Lord of the Rings” soundtrack. It is quite good.

    10. JustaTech*

      I like the Vitamin String Quartet (they’re like the Piano guys, but on strings!) [The Vitamin String quartet plays pop music on strings, so it’s familiar but has no lyrics.]

      A friend of my used to have a CD of instrumental versions of Beatles songs she played at her daycare called “Napping to the Beatles”.

    11. Effie, who gets to be herself*

      I really like Hayao Miyazaki’s soundtracks! Oh, and also Hans Zimmer – my favorite is his soundtrack from “The Holiday”. And Moana’s soundtrack has tons of instrumental tracks.

    12. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I built one around Sidney Bechet (a Jazz musician from New Orleans who did most of his work in Paris) that is my go-to for work. I trained the station to pretty much only have instrumentals. Lots of Bechet (obviously), Bunny Berrigan, King Oliver, early Count Basie, Louis Armstrong, Django Reinhart, Oscar Peterson, etc…

      Go listen to Sidney Bechet “Petite Fleur” and see if it is up your alley and would be good for you at work. :-)

    14. Argh!*

      I listen to pop music in other languages. The words won’t distract me, and it’s upbeat enough to energize me.

    15. Workerbee*

      What would happen if you half-closed your door? Could be the start of a beautiful new office culture trend that eventually leads to It’s Okay to Close Your Door Because Concentration Matters.

  41. Murphy*

    If your boss postpones your regular meeting, repeatedly, whose responsibility is it to reschedule the meeting?

    1. irene adler*

      I would say, show some follow-through and don’t let this meeting fall through the cracks-regardless of who’s responsibility it is to reschedule it.
      Might also ask if this is a sign boss doesn’t see a need for a regular meeting.

      1. Murphy*

        I meant repeatedly rescheduling the same meeting, although I have had a conversation with him about whether our regular time was really the best time, because things kept coming up. He said it would be just as likely to happen at any other time, so we stuck to it.

        Tuesday he couldn’t make the regular time and wanted to meet a few hours later. He rescheduled the calendar invite. Then another meeting went long, so he said how about Wednesday. He was in and out of meetings all day, then late in the afternoon said “Oh, we were supposed to meet today, weren’t we? How about Friday?” I’m not sure if, when he says Wed or Fri, I should be running in his office when I see him asking when he wants to meet, or if I should wait for him to come get me at a good time. (I’m at my desk pretty much all the time.)

        1. Holly*

          Ultimately you have to do the leg work. Like when you boss says, “how about Friday instead?” Send an e-mail “I’m free X, Y, and Z times – do those work for you?” And send a calendar invite. Since he’s prone to cancellation, maybe an hour before check in with him “hey are we still on for today?”

    3. Deryn*

      Ohhhh, I used to be in an office that was freezing all the time (but a few offices of people much higher up the chain somehow stayed overly warm). I have wrap that I keep at my desk (it sort of a blanket/poncho/wrap thing made out of heavy fleece and to be perfectly honest it’s not much different than a normal blanket) and I also used to keep a heating pad at my desk. I found that keeping it on my lap UNDER the wrap worked really well.

    4. you don't know me*

      My old boss would tell me to schedule our one-on-one meetings then he would cancel them and tell me to reschedule. Then he just started declining the invites and telling me to pick another time. It would make me so mad. I always checked his schedule first so it wasn’t like I was purposely picking a bad time. I couldn’t understand why he didn’t just schedule it himself. Anyway, it would be better if the boss rescheduled it but some bosses are pompous a-holes who like to power trip and jerk people around so you might need to do it.

    5. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I would be proactive and suggest a new date for the meeting. In addition, I would a say, “going forward, we can meet once a month rather than every week if that would be more convenient” or something to that effect.

  42. AngryTreeSpirit*

    Has anybody successfully gotten your medium to large company to raise the temperatures in your office? I’ve had three conversations with the ops manager about the temperature and nothing has changed. I freeze every day.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      As someone who runs hot, I’d advise against this. It’s much easier for you to add a sweater if you’re cold.

      1. Merida Ann*

        I would think it’s pretty safe to assume she’s already tried adding a sweater, since that’s typically the first step when someone is always freezing inside. This kind of sentiment is so frustrating to encounter continuously when you are having serious problems from the cold.

        Sweaters don’t help with cold fingers and noses and plenty of other issues the intense cold can cause. I know my office is never going to be fully comfortable for me, because I just tend to usually be cold, but nowhere else I go in the area (stores, movie theaters, etc.) are nearly as cold as it is in here. I have to take periodic breaks to go outside just to thaw out and stretch my muscles. My keys are still chilled to the touch after I walk across the grounds to my car every day, even though they were buried in my purse.

        Like I said, I know it will never be as warm as I’d like in the office, but why can’t it be kept on a more moderate temperature, instead of swinging all the way to the other side of the pendulum. If it’s in the middle, a sweater/extra layers would be enough for me and those who run cold, and those who run hot can add a fan (we’re not allowed to have space heaters, though), and then at least it would be more reasonable. But my office is the coldest place I go in my life and even my thick sweaters and occasionally even leggings under my jeans aren’t enough to fight the overactive AC most of the time. When your fingers are too cold to type properly, there’s a serious problem, and “just add a sweater” won’t fix things.

        All that said, AngryTreeSpirit, I’ve never had much luck getting things changed in my office. Do you have a personal office with its own thermostat? I’ve heard of people trying to trick their thermostats by putting an icepack on top of the sensor so that it thinks it’s colder than it is in your office and shuts off the AC, but that’s not going to be a viable solution if the thermostat serves other people as well.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Like I said, I know it will never be as warm as I’d like in the office, but why can’t it be kept on a more moderate temperature, instead of swinging all the way to the other side of the pendulum. If it’s in the middle, a sweater/extra layers would be enough for me and those who run cold, and those who run hot can add a fan (we’re not allowed to have space heaters, though), and then at least it would be more reasonable.

          But it’s a medium-to-large company, which likely means a medium-to-large building. And climate control for a medium-to-large building isn’t that homogenous. There are always going to be hot spots and cold spots. I mean, even my tiny HOUSE has this problem. And so do office buildings. Chances are, if they make it warmer in ATS’s area (or in your area), it will make it unreasonably warm in someone else’s area.

          1. tangerineRose*

            Maybe they need to offer to move people so that people who want more warmth can sit in warmer areas.

        2. Ingray*

          OMG thank you. I get kind of worked up by the whole “just wear a sweater” thing. Like that didn’t occur to me. My fingers are blue and I literally can’t feel my toes, how is a sweater supposed to fix that? (Luckily not a problem in my current workplace, while the building is cold my office itself is warm. But I’ve been there.)

          I have a lovely pair of USB powered heated fingerless gloves. They make typing somewhat awkward but they do keep my hands nice and toasty.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Sadly, a lot of warm-natured people make this suggestion because we live and work with people who will sit there in short sleeves and no socks and sleeveless dresses and strappy sandals and the thermostat is set to 74 degrees and they whine about being sooooo coooooooooollllllldddddd. I realize you are not one of those people, but we’ve been conditioned to respond that way thanks to them. (And yes, one of them may be my mother in law.)

      2. Undine*

        It is theoretically possible, but I’ve definitely worked places where I’m wearing long pants, a sweater, and a jacket and my hands are ice cold. What is correct is that there is no way to make everyone comfortable, and climate control is uneven across a large office, which means inevitably someone who runs cold will be sitting in a cold spot, while someone who runs hot will be sitting in a hot spot.

        I read suggestions for a heated throw on here, or a heated footrest. If something like that is allowed and affordable, I say go for it.

        Now, with hot flashes, I’ve been on both ends of this. It’s miserable either way.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          I’ve also seen suggestions for a heated mouse! Which I love the idea of because my hands get cold.

            1. Chaordic One*

              THEY DO EXIST! THEY DO EXIST!

              I would never have thought of this, but yes, I googled it and up it came a listing. Then I googled “heated computer keyboard,” and it also exists! (According to the website people who bought the heated computer keyboard and heated mouse also bought a heated footrest.) Lastly, there’s also a heated computer wrist pad that you place in front of your keyboard that keeps your wrists (and maybe your hands, too) warm.

              I’ve previously worked in some government offices where they were paranoid about security and they might not be thrilled about having a new keyboard and mouse used on one of their computers, but if you have a doctor’s note (for something like arthritis or poor circulation), most employers should consider it a reasonable accommodation and should go along with it.

      3. Murphy*

        My office is just cold. I’m not a person who is cold all the time, and I had fingerless mitts on until a few minutes ago. I wear a cardigan to work pretty much every day, but I don’t carry an extra second one, particularly when it’s 95 degrees outside. I can’t wear dresses and skirts as much as I’d like, especially in the summer, because it’s too damn cold in my office.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Honestly, unless this is a recent issue, I’d assume that it’s been brought up in the past and has been addressed to the extent it’s going to be addressed. Because there’s no way you’re the first person in a medium-to-large company to be too cold.

    4. Elemeno P.*

      We’ve been unsuccessful in changing the building as a whole, but my director bought us space heaters and that helps a lot.

    5. Not All Who Wander*

      I was able to bring a thermometer to keep at my desk to show that it was actually only 68 most of the time in my cube. That gained me permission for a space heater, electric blanket, and foot warmer.

      In one office, we figured out that there was a HUGE range of temperatures across each floor because they hadn’t done the ducting correctly. So we were able to convince the managers to let us voluntarily trade cubes so the people who ran cold got the areas that were always hotter and the people that ran hot got the cooler side…made everyone happier!

      1. Perse's Mom*

        We’ve got a fun office where not only is one side of the building notably warmer than the other (mine is usually colder), but one side of the *room* is warmer (mine again is colder). This meant that until summer temps hit, I was wearing long sleeves, a scarf, and fingerless gloves every day in the office.

    6. BuffaLove*

      Sounds like it’s not going to happen, sorry. I would guess that it’s been raised before and that there are some people who run warm who’d raise hell if the thermostat went up.

      General tips in addition to what others have mentioned – sip on hot beverages all day, use a heated mouse and/or footrest if allowed, and most importantly, do not feel bad about wearing what you need to be warm! I wear thick cardigans all summer long, or a thinner cardigan with a sweater jacket on top, and I’ll throw fingerless gloves on when it’s really bad. People make comments, but it’s not mean-spirited, and I stopped being embarrassed by it a long time ago. Yup, I’m freezing, even though it’s 95 degrees out. I’m always freezing!

      1. BuffaLove*

        Also, I apologize if you’ve already looked into this, but it might be worth talking to your doctor and having some bloodwork done. I have pretty chronically low iron and I feel a hundred times colder when my nutrition is lacking and I’m not on iron pills.

    7. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      I had some luck when I sat in a particularly chilly spot (as a company with about 1200 employees) by bringing in a little digital thermometer to document just how cold the ambient air was around me.

      Won’t help if the policy is the thermostat is kept at 68 degrees, and 68 degrees is just too cold for you, but it did help me to “prove” that while policy was to keep the thermostat at 72, my area was actually in the mid 60’s. Once I proved it they were more willing to try to assist.

    8. Holly*

      *cackles as icicles shatter around me* I work in government. The number of work orders my entire hallway of colleagues have submitted without response… whew.

    9. JustaTech*

      I don’t know how large my office counts (we’re a couple of thousand people overall, but only about 80 in this building), but my boss was able to talk to facilities and get the temperature nudged up when his office suddenly became much colder a few months ago. That warmed up the whole cube farm, but not as much.

      So if you have your own facilities folks (rather than people who work for the building) and it’s a change, then yes, you might be able to change the temperature.

    10. Deryn*

      I accidentally replied to the wrong thread, whoops! tl;dr I haven’t gotten them to change the temperature, but I did keep a small heating pad at my desk for my lap, which I often covered with a heavy wrap/poncho thing, and that helped a lot!

    11. AngryTreeSpirit*

      Thanks for your comments everybody. Yes, I have several blankets, wraps and ponchos that I pile on throughout the day. People make “Eskimo” jokes when they see me and I laugh but silently want to punch them in the face. To respond –
      -space heaters are not allowed. I had one and they made me remove it.
      -others have mentioned the cold.
      -for me it’s more an issue of draft than temp. My monitor says it is 71 but the draft in my cube is strong enough to ruffle the papers on my desk. All. Day. Long. That is why I am cold all the time.
      It just makes me crazy that it’s a beautiful 75 degrees out and I have to dress like I’m going to the Arctic every day because of my damn office. GAH.

      1. Rosemary*

        UGH, WIND. My old office had these sorts of temperature/draft quirks. We actually covered up the AC out-vent near my desk with tinfoil, and that seemed to help a bit.

        I know someone else in the office has this big leaf-shaped umbrella thing at their desk that I think is meant for shade, but maybe you could get away with using some sort of cheerful outdoor-shade device as a wind blocker disguised as decor?

    12. Evil HR Person*

      Here’s the problem we encountered in my office: I’m freezing. Everybody acknowledged that yes, my office, is COLD. The thermostat is set to 75 degrees, which in Florida, that’s pretty good and should be *comfortable* (as opposed to cold). My coworkers’ office, however, is okay, and sometimes it’s even hot. We all share the same thermostat, same system. So… yeah, there’s not much anybody can do. If I raise the temperature, I fry them. If they lower it any more than 75, they freeze me further. At least they were willing to suffer a little bit of heat for my sake.

      This isn’t the first office where I’ve run into this same issue. OP, I’m thinking you are having a similar problem.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      The worst place I worked was 45 degrees. We begged for a reprieve and none came. I eventually left the job.

      Currently, I have a great boss. We are at the opposite ends of the thermometer. She lets me run a heater. My feet get so cold that I cannot warm up. Sometimes I go out of work almost in tears. Because of the air flows in the room the coldest part of the room is under my desk, where my feet are.

      I will say that it seems once the cold gets in a person it’s hard to get rid of it. Before my house was insulated my floors were around 45-50 degrees all winter. The heater broke in my car so there was no heat there. It wears on a person, it really does. For folks who tend to run cold, try to make sure that you are warm at other points in the day, such as your car and home. This goes into building resilience so the cold at work does not seem as desperately cold.

      1. Windchime*

        That was my thought. If the people in charge of the thermostat are bundled up in wool suits all day, then there’s your answer. I tend to run hot, so I probably can’t help you out. I have a large, soft scarf that I keep in my drawer for the rare occasion that I feel chilly or cold in the office. I drape it over my shoulders like a shawl and it really helps.

      2. Incantanto*

        Its something you have to consider though, people’s normal workclothes.
        My building had a massive argument recently because the company that;s all psychotherapist ladies in shorts and dresses wanted the temp raised and got it done, without considering that the industrial chemistry company down the corridor (also mostly women) have to all wear long trousers, full covered shoes, labcoats, hair nets and face masks.

    15. ..Kat..*

      Can you close or block the air conditioning vent? For example, I bought a set of vent blockers on Amazon that work really well.

  43. SoSo*

    Less than one week until I’ve officially made the transition out of being an admin!! This will be my first non-admin job ever (not counting retail and food service work as a teen) and I’m so excited I don’t even know what to do with myself.

    In the meantime, though, my boss has taken to giving me even more work before I leave rather than taking things off my plate, and I’m about to tear my hair out. She’s been a mostly good boss so far, but it’s going to be really hard to make it through the next 4 work days….

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      Hooray! As a current admin with dreams of getting out, I am very happy for you! I am sorry that you’re being piled on before you leave, but when things get too rough, remember that it will end soon and you will be in a better place before you know it.

      1. SoSo*

        Thank you! I keep reminding myself that it’s just because my position doesn’t really have an equivalent and when I leave, there are several duties and tasks that will just…. stop. Hopefully they get someone in who can learn quickly, but I’m trying my best to get everything wrapped up and documented before I leave.

        And good luck to you on getting out of the admin prison! I didn’t think I would be able to do it so soon (I thought I’d need another year of training & volunteer experience) but this was an unexpected blessing. Keep trying!

    2. ..Kat..*

      You don’t have to kill yourself trying to get it all done! Put in normal 8 hour days. Tell your boss what you are prioritizing and what you won’t get to. Alison has several good posts about how to do this.

  44. stitchinthyme*

    What do people think about fidget cubes in meetings? (If you do a Google image search of “fidget cube”, the first few results are basically the thing I have – a little cube that is maybe a bit more than a square inch to a side, fits into the palm of your hand, and has a variety of buttons, knobs, etc. to play with.)

    I have a hard time staying focused in meetings, especially when I’m not actively participating and have to sit there and listen to other people, and I find that having something to do with my hands helps keep me from drifting. (If I could get away with knitting, I’d totally do it, but I don’t think that would go over well.) Until I found the fidget cube, my usual thing was to play with my hair — though I’ve since seen a letter here where someone wondered whether to tell a colleague that her habit of doing the same in meetings was distracting, so since then I’ve made an effort to stop. I’m hoping the fidget cube is as harmless as doodling; no one I work with seems to mind, and many don’t notice it at all since I try to keep it unobtrusive — if anyone does notice, it’s just the person sitting next to me.

    So – if you happened to notice someone with something like this in a meeting, would you care?

    1. Celeste*

      If I could see it, I would think it was kind of strange. But what I’m thinking of makes me think of a toy. Do the moving parts make any sound at all? I would hate that. It would be like sitting by someone who’s clicking a pen, or standing there jingling coins in their pockets, and so on. Here’s an idea–what about something with no parts, like a worry stone? Something you could hold in your hand and turn over and feel, and something that no one really knows you have?

    2. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      If you have a mental health diagnosis (you didn’t say), it would be considered a medical device covered by the ADA. But if you don’t, I’m not sure how that would go over, it probably depends on the culture of your workplace.

    3. anna green*

      I agree with Celeste, if it makes any sound, that’s a definite no. But if its silent, that’s better. Can you hold it under the table? That might be okay. If it seems like its working in your setting, maybe its fine. I also sort of disagree that doodling is harmless, if people are hardcore doodling, I feel like that doesn’t look too great either. But it also depends on how big the meeting room is and how close together people are. Are there any kind of fidget pens out there? I feel like fiddling with a pen (silently), people wouldn’t even notice.

      1. Cool or hot*

        You can get rings with moving parts, so you can turn the middle section. That might be even more inobtrusive.

        1. Admin of Sys*

          +1 I had a spinner ring for ages in college, it kept me focused through many a lecture. And they make wide-band plain ones, that are pretty gender neutral looking.

    5. Holly*

      I have one in my office and it helps me immensely with my particular anxiety issues. However, I would not take it into a meeting. If there’s a way you could conceal its usage like under a table it probably would be fine – there’s actually two buttons on it that purposefully do not make noise. But you absolutely could not use the buttons on it that do make noise. Why not get one and try it in a private space to see if you could get away with bringing it – concealed – into a meeting?

      1. Holly*

        My alternative recommendations – do not doodle, take actual notes! And bring a cold bottle of water. Drinking water is good for you and I just keep taking sips when I need to re-focus.

    6. JustaTech*

      If I noticed I would probably think “ooh, cool, I’ll have to ask to look at that later” and probably “at least someone is putting effort into paying attention” (which is me being snarky about people in my meetings who nap).

      And at least a fidget cube is intended to be messed with. I have several boss-level people who fiddle with their fountain pens in meetings which has more than once ended with ink everywhere.

      But yeah, I take extensive notes, even if I don’t need to. And if it’s really boring I’ll practice my cursive by writing my color commentary.

    8. Ingray*

      Nobody would think anything of this where I work. But I work in the mental health field and we are quite familiar with this type of tool (I have one on my desk right now actually.)

    9. Denise*

      I might. Can you just write down random words as they are said in the meeting? Write down who is speaking or something to look up later or who is going to take on a task.

      1. Lalaroo*

        Really? This seems like such a strong response, it’s really surprising to me!

        Stitchinthyme, I have a Fidgi pen that is really unobtrusive but still has a lot of the same types of features as a fidget cube. It also writes, so it would be a multitasker. :)

  45. ScienceLady*

    I have a weird, genuine curiosity. About how many legit (non-phishing, etc.) work emails do you receive/send a day, and in what field do you work? I am in educational administration, and am around 90/80.

    1. London Calling*

      Depends. I work in event management and this is our quiet time of year, but I receive maybe 2/3rds of my invoices by email and because people are around and out in the venue organising things a lot of chasing and asking stuff is done via mail. If I have a lot of invoices that need POs then obvs it’s going to be a lot of chasers going out, and if I don’t, well, not. I can have days when I wonder if Outlook is working and days when I wish it wasn’t.

    2. lisalee*

      It depends on the time of year, but I would say 30-60/20-50 (I am an admin at a consulting firm).

    3. Quill*

      Less than 10, but I’m a lab rat. They’re pretty much all “here’s the teapot analysis results!” and “can you incubate a fresh batch of teacups?”

    4. No Tribble At All*

      Engineer. Send? Maybe 3-5 emails. Receive around 60. We have lots of automated status emails and daily update. I have very good email filters :D

      1. Specialk9*

        Project manager. 40 in, 20 out. (Not counting all the filtered stuff that automatically goes to a folder. That’s a LOT more.)

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      I am a lawyer. I routinely get 90-150 work emails a day (I tend to get cc’d on a lot of threads). It can be more when we have a big project going — One day it approached 500.

    6. EddieSherbert*

      I probably only get and send like 10 actual emails a day…. but my company uses Yammer (and now Teams) and I have a lot of hashtags/announcement/reply notifications there. Probably 20-30 daily notifications there. And I also help run our social media, so another 20-30 notifications there (that can be anything from messages and posts to likes. I LOVE that Facebook combines “likes” in one notification – so I get “Eddie and 15 others liked this” versus 16 notifications!).

    7. JustaTech*

      Scientist. It ranges from day to day, but usually I’ll send 5-10, but I’ll get 30+, because I’m on a mailing list that gets a lot of traffic. So I need to look at the mail, but I don’t have to respond to it.

      Before I was on that mailing list I had days where I didn’t get a single real email.

    9. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Internal audit. It totally depends on what I’m doing. I’ve been as low as 5/0, and has high as 100s/100s (that one wasn’t fun). Probably average around 30-40/10-20, but I’m non-mgmt. If I’m supervising staff on a project and they’re ccing me, the number jumps.

    10. Falcon*

      I work in Account Management/Customer Service, and I handle about 150 emails per day average. 100 would be a slow day for me.

      1. General Ginger*

        Similar position, and about the same volume as Falcon when we’re busy, but can be as low as 60-80 when we’re slow.

    11. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Admin Assistant here. Sending- about 20-50 could be more /could be less depending upon what’s going on or if I’m following up with something. Receiving- about 70-90 half of which I don’t need to respond to

    12. Jules the First*

      I’m a proposal manager and literally half my job is email. In my current role, where I have an amazing team I can delegate to, I get around 100 messages a day and probably send about the same (on very busy days, it can be more like 400/250). In my previous jobs, I regularly got 800-900 messages a day and sent around 200.

    13. sweet potatoes*

      I get 100-200 on a normal days, I send roughly a hundred a day. When I make purchase orders that pushes it to about 200. I work in sourcing for a shipping supplies company.

  46. Strange request*

    TL:DR version is that our treasurer, who is not part of my reporting structure, wants me to “retro-charge” expenses to a pool of extra money so we can stop carrying the money on books. My direct supervisor is currently unreachable and I can’t confirm that she is aware of and supports this request. Suggestions for how to respond?
    Long version: I work for a membership-based non-profit that is financially very stable. In 2011, we received a five figure “grant” (skipping long explanation of how we got the money) for my department. Because the hiring process for my position was beginning, the organization decided not to spend the money. So when I began in 2012, not only did I have an adequate budget, I also had “extra” money to spend. I spent one-fourth of the grant on a major project almost immediately and have since been spending it down slowly on other “nice to have” projects, but there is still money available.
    Yesterday, my organization’s treasurer came to me and asked/directed me to spend what is left by retro-charging expenses from the past two years to the grant; he would like this done by the end of this fiscal year (August 31). The reason given was that it “looked bad” to be carrying this money on the books for seven years (never mind that we don’t have to account for when/how the money was spent.) I was surprised by this request, did not respond well, and basically agreed. The more I think about it, the stranger his request seems. My organization is very big on hierarchy, so this request coming from outside normal channels is very unusual. He is not my boss (or even in my “chain of command”), nor is he a member of the organization we both work for. Normally, I would immediately go to my boss about this request, but she is out of the country until the middle of August and the week she returns, I’ll be at a conference. Right now I’m going to stall as much as possible and plan to call her as soon as she gets back. If he brings it up again, I plan to say that I need to speak to my boss about this before I do anything. Any suggestions for how to respond if he says “I already cleared this with boss/grandboss (the CEO)?” I would have expected him to lead with that if he had talked about it with either of them (and I would have expected my boss to let me know if he had.) Like I said, given our workplace culture, this just seems weird.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      “I can’t move forward with this until after Supervisor is back in the office. Let’s talk after X date.”

      1. Blue Eagle*

        I agree with Rusty. Don’t make the Treasurer wait for 3 weeks thinking that you will comply with his request when, in fact, you plan to do nothing during that time. You mention that your boss is out of the country – – is this work-related or vacation. If the former, then you should send her an e-mail about it. If vacation, then talk to your Treasurer using Rusty’s wording.

    2. Alice Frank*

      This is relatively common in a non-profit, though it is best to do it within a current fiscal year. The grant amount has been set aside as restricted on your financial reports, and it has to be accounted for as being spent for a specific purpose. In my organization, the money is not actually sitting there in an account to be spent, it is literally just a number on a spreadsheet, the actual money has been spent a while ago.

      If the grant is multi-year (which it sounds like it is), it gets really cumbersome to keep moving that restricted money forward each year. Every so often, our finance director will ask us to review our restricted fund amounts and “charge back” whatever we can. They need expenses to offset the revenue on the books, and get it off that restricted funds line item. It is usually within the same year, but I’ve had times when we had to look back further and charge various expenses in order to show that we spent it on that particular purpose. As long as the expenses were truly related to the grant purpose, it is fine to do this. They are not actually taking money out of an account, it’s really just a tracking thing that is required by IRS tax code.

      1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

        +1 I am a CPA this is how fund accounting works and why I refuse to do it!

        1. Alice Frank*

          Oh, and 7 years is a really, really long time to have a restricted fund balance sitting there unspent. Unless it is an ongoing fund that gets added to periodically, it is not good to have a 5-figure amount just taking up space. Check the original grant requirements – usually there is a timeline specified – i.e., the funds need to be spent within one year, or if it is multi-year, then you must spend x% each year. Even if you intend to use the money for supplemental (nice to have) items, there should be a plan for spending it down.

          Restricted funds are a pain, and sometimes require more tracking and monitoring than they are worth. If it makes you feel more comfortable to get your supervisor’s approval then you should do that. But from my perspective – having worked in both large and small non-profits for over 30 years – this is a completely appropriate request coming directly from your treasurer, whether or not your supervisor discussed it with him first.

          1. Observer*

            I disagree. Charging back to a prior fiscal year is definitely questionable, although there are times when its appropriate and makes sense. It should never be such a last minute thing that it can’t wait till the person who should sign off on it gets back from a scheduled time out of the office. And, the boss or CEO should DEFINITELY be signing off on this.

    3. Forkeater*

      I work in a finance office – though as a technical person- but that request wouldn’t be odd at all – we are definitely looking for ways to spend down our balances! However, this would never happen without going through levels of hierarchy to agree on this. So yeah, lather, rinse, repeat “I can’t do anything without my boss’s approval.”

    4. Logan*

      From other responses it sounds like it’s a reasonable request, so maybe you could locate items on which you could spend that money but not actually do the work until your boss returns? Maybe send your boss an email which essentially says “I had this request from Treasurer on that day, and determined that we could do this with these items, so could you please let me know if I should proceed?” That way if Treasurer asks then you can honestly say that you are working on the problem.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If nothing else fits/works I would say, “I thought about your request and I am not comfortable with taking responsibility for that decision. In the end, it’s my ethics and integrity on the line. I will wait for Boss to return/talk to grandboss/other solution before proceeding.”

      Or more simply: “I need clearance from my boss before I do that.” I use that one a lot with situations that are difficult, multi-sided or unfamiliar to me.

      1. ..Kat..*

        This. Without approval from your boss, I would not do it. Definitely email your boss now.

    6. DCR*

      I think the request is fine, subject to the specific wording of the grant. But it sounds like he spoke to you in person; I would want the request in writing in signed off by my supervisor before doing it. Can you ask that he sends you the details in an email, identify the costs you would transfer, and then send it to your boss once back with those details?

    7. Observer*

      This stinks to high heavens.

      Stick to “I need to talk to boss.”

      If he does claim to have cleared with boss, tell him that since Boss hasn’t discussed this with you, you can’t do anything with this till you talk to her. Sorry. If he claims to have cleared with the CEO, tell him that in order for you to move forward with something like this without your Boss’ go ahead you need to hear directly from the CEO.

      Then hold firm.

  47. What to do?*

    Brand new to a new job, not even in the place for two weeks yet… and I hate it. I’m in a very senior role and went from a place with a lot of autonomy (probably too much) and a very flat structure to a new company that I believe is trying very hard to be an excellent place to work and provide excellent service to their clients, but with lots of inefficiencies and the process for everything is very rigid. They still print reports, handwrite markups, and scan to have them typed in by a secretary, for example. (It’s not just that is what people do, that is the actual policy.)

    Really nice people and decent projects, but I am already not loving anything about the execution of the work. And it’s very deeply engrained in the company culture (they are in deep with one of those business models with multiple books, lots of jargon, and outside consultants), so that’s not going anywhere. I get and agree with some of it, but it’s just so damn rigid and opaque.

    How soon is too soon to know? Any advice for differentiating new job jitters from real culture/fit problems?

    1. London Calling*

      I had a job two years ago that I knew by the end of the first week just was not going to fly, but I made myself do the three months probation because it might get better (it didn’t). The way I did it was draw up a list of reasons why I would stay/reasons why I wouldn’t and the latter was way longer than the former. I think there are things like having things handwritten and typed and an actual policy that you have no chance of changing then they sound a great deal more rigid than you can be comfortable with long term. And I don’t blame you for that.

    2. JessicaTate*

      I also had a job situation where I had a really strong gut feeling that it was a terrible fit within the first two weeks (the alarm bells started during the very first meeting with my new boss). Like London Calling, I listened to advice to stick it out because it was probably just the natural difficulty of change (it was very different than my prior job). I was very wrong. The things that were red flags for me only got worse and were (in retrospect) deal-breaker issues for me. I wish I’d left right away, but live and learn.

      I’d also recommend doing some self reflection on what is most important to you about a job and work environment. Where does this job line up and fall short of those desires? Which can you put up with and which are just going to make you miserable? Like you, I’m big on autonomy and efficiency, two things that my example job did NOT value at all. It was a mismatch and they were things that I couldn’t convince the organization to change.

    3. AnonInfinity*

      For the job I had between 2010-2014, I knew on day one it was a bad fit and considered asking for my previous job back (my pride would not let me). Everything I sensed that was a bad fit (e.g., high turnover, tension, yelling, no training, the sounds of people tip-toeing on eggshells) got worse over the four years I stayed. It was a nightmare.

      For the job I had between 2014-2015, I knew during the first week at my actual site (after 4 weeks of out-of-state training that I enjoyed) that I hated the job. I tried to find a new job, but the boss from the aforementioned job from 2010-2014 wouldn’t give me a positive reference and badgered me to come back to work for her. Thinking it was hopeless, I stayed for about a year and a half and then landed at my current company.

      There was ONE job I had back in college that I ABSOLUTELY HATED for the first two months – and then it clicked and I happily stayed for four years. But otherwise? Yeah, I knew, my instincts knew, and I spent a lot of time being miserable at work.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I am thinking you are probably done right now.

      As an exercise think back to starting other new jobs. How did you feel then? How does that differ from now?

      When you took the job what were your life and career goals? Will you be able to work on those goals or will you be struggling to get through the next five minutes?

      Do you know why they hired you, what they hoped to gain from adding you in?

      Don’t pick a survival plan where you alone will change this company. You won’t win, there are too many of them and not enough of you. You’ll be in the ER and they will still be doing what they do. I am not exaggerating this stuff when it gets big can erode people’s health.

    5. Argh!*

      I am in my tenth year at such a place. Rigid people make me want to scream. We all have trouble with change, but some people are just impossible, and if they’re at or near the top, your only hope is that they’re all close to retirement.

      I hate it here. What success we have at actually producing something is always mediocre, but received with great applause. They truly have no idea what excellence is and how to achieve it.

      My advice: GO!!!!

    6. Anonnie*

      I am in the same state now. I went from a company where I was on a team where we all had our areas to work on, but we helped each other out all of the time to a place with a very rigid structure and rules. I don’t have enough to do and my co-workers in other business units could use my help, but we are not allowed to cross business unit lines. I have committed to staying for a year because I really want to use my old manager as a reference, but if I ask now I know she would want me to come back. I loved my team and manager, but I had a bunch of issues with the old company itself and reduced my stress level considerably since I left. This new job has upsides like a decent manager, nice coworkers, a great commute, and not a lot of stress, so it should be relatively easy for me to work there for a year before going back on the market.

    7. What to do?*

      Thank you all for the input. It’s not a bad company, but I’ve had two short stints in a row (10 months and 1.5 years) after ten years at a single comment, in an industry where 3 or 4 year runs are still somewhat considered job hopping. I really expected my last job to be a keeper and wish the leadership had been different there. If this job isn’t a good fit, I want to leave early enough that leaving it if my resume won’t matter, so I feel like I have a few months max. I don’t want a third job in the years, ugh.

      I’ve quietly put myself back on the market. Let’s see what happens. I’m in a high demand industry and role, so I can afford to be choosy.

  48. KatieKate*

    How do I show promotions on Linked in? They’re mostly title changes–my duties don’t change–so it seems odd to make a new position.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’ve just listed them as a new position, and in the description of job duties written something like “promoted from Assistant Teapot Maker in July 2018.”

  49. Butch Cassidy*

    It’s my last day at my job and I’m going to go out with a bit of a bang by sending one more email to HR and the site lead regarding the problem of a known sexual harasser in the position of supervisor. I already had reported my experience last year – when his promotion to supervisor was first announced – while mentioning that I knew a couple of others who had had worse treatment from him. Since then I’ve not only found that just about everyone here knows multiple women who have been harassed by him, but also that he’s been reported multiple times with no action. I’ve gathered stories from several women I know, two of whom declined promotions rather than be made to work more closely with him, and will write out a professional but firm email explaining the scale of the problem on which leadership is sitting while doing nothing. It’s a bit dramatic but I don’t feel good leaving this place without making one more attempt at seeing things made right.

    Any advice on how to write this?

      1. EddieSherbert*

        +100 to Glassdoor, since I think it’s obvious HR isn’t going to do anything (sorry :( !)

    2. Holly*

      I wouldn’t look at it as “going out with a bang.” Steer clear of dramatic language and let the drama be from the factual allegations being presented. Credibility is really important in this situation – professional but firm is the way to go.

      1. Butch Cassidy*

        Yeah, I’m not going to aim for theatrics at all in how the email is written. I’m just a young woman relatively new to the corporate world in a situation where it feels like doing this will cause a (well-deserved) mess for leadership to deal with, so it *feels* like going out with a bang.

    3. melting*

      Omg small internet world! I’m definitely one of the women who sent you a statement. I think it’s really amazing what you’re doing.

      Maybe check out the format of a victim impact statement. Also, given the leadership at the site, maybe really drive down on the missed business opportunity of losing multiple valuable employees for the sake of one person.

      1. Butch Cassidy*

        I know Allison is really sensitive to people recognizing each other here, but I’m fine with this. Hello! <3

  50. DaniCalifornia*

    I’m in the administrative field. Job ads for something like my role can be so wide and varied. I make 60K a year and have no official title (small company) but the closest I come to is Executive Admin Asst or Executive Asst. The problem when I’m job searching is that so many people interchange those titles with Office Manager/Admin Asst/Sr Admin etc. Ex: One job said EA and had a good description but in reality when I learned more it was more along the lines of “We just need you to greet customers, direct phones, and we’ll pay you minimum wage,”

    So for jobs that don’t list salary range (and sometimes don’t list the company name so I can’t do more research) I end up finding out they are looking to pay $10/hr or $28K. It would not be financially responsible to accept much less than my current salary considering I will likely be making my commute longer taking a new job. (Also who wants to get paid less for a potentially better job?) I’m trying to get into a more corporate setting/larger company. But I don’t have a good way to figure out how to bring up salary range before getting too invested. The last phone interview I had the interviewer said the salary up front and it was half of what I make. I continued with the interview but wondered if there was any way to have said “Oh I don’t think I’d be a good match.” so that we didn’t waste our time. Advice? Scripts? I know Alison has talked about this before, I’m currently wading through archives.

    1. ballpitwitch*

      I’m having the same problem and it’s maddening. There is such a range of responsibilties for these kinds of jobs and consequently, the salaries/pay rates are all over the place.

      I am usually just up front about it once I am talking to someone on the phone if it seems like something that might be much lower-paying than I am looking for. I just ask the range. If they didn’t put it in their ad, they can’t really fault people for not wanting to waste everyone’s time.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        This is what I think too! Reasonably I believe that if someone contacts me for an interview I should be able to ask the range. Then if it’s way too low we can both not waste time. Even if it was my almost dream job for half or 2/3 my salary I probably wouldn’t take it right now.

    2. Let's Talk About Splett*

      I’m an admin, too, and I hear you. I think it’s okay (and in fact I have done this) to respond to a salary in a phone screen with basically, “I am sorry, but that is half what I make now and I can’t accept that” followed by short thanks for considering me & good luck.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Thanks. I wish I had for that particular interview. I just felt awkward interrupting the flow to say “You know what…” and then it kept going. But I also know that my interview wasn’t the best after hearing that. And then I thought perhaps I should email them after to say ‘Hey I’m withdrawing due to salary’ but didn’t on advice of others. I just felt super awkward and probably made it worse in my own head.

    3. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      Oh man – I feel your pain. I was an admin for awhile and every job search was like this. Unfortunately I think it’s just nature of this type of work (no standard job descriptions and the pay range varies so widely).

      Have you tried using external recruiters? I imagine that it would sort of depend on your location whether or not this is an viable option, but if you’re in any sort of metro area I think there would be some agencies or options. Particular for the higher paying administrative roles and if you’re leaning towards a more corporate setting/larger companies – those were the ones that seemed to rely heavily on external recruiters to source admin candidates (in my experience).

      Another heads up, not sure what your work history is like prior to your current role (maybe you have experience with larger corps already – if so feel free to disregard this – and I know you didn’t ask about this specifically), but be aware that being an admin at a smaller company can be a whole different ballpark than being an admin in a larger corporation. I made the move from smaller firms to a pretty large firm and it was a complete disaster. I thought it was what I wanted, but I was not at all prepared to be another cog in the wheel nor for the exclusion (the company I worked for had all admins report directly to a “queen of the admins” rather the department that they worked within – it was very jarring to not be considered a true part of the team that I worked the most closely with or alongside) or for being at the bottom of a very extreme and rigid hierarchy.

      I’m sure these are not issues at every larger corporations – it was just stuff that I had no idea I should keep an eye out for (or consider whether or not they would be an issue for me personally), never having worked at a large corporation. I also struggled with shifting from being able (or even being expected) to take a bigger picture view of my work in general, to never really getting to be a part of the bigger picture so only being able to prioritize based on the limited info in front of me.

      Anyway – apologies if this is totally off-base! It was just such a disaster for me I figured let me throw it out there for someone else considering a similar move.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Not off base at all. I have heard and read about some of the problems working for a large corporation. I have actually never worked directly for one. My first admin role was for a branch of a larger dental company so we had our own rules + corporate stuff. And they were awful. But I’m tired of extremely small offices where they are just stuck in their ways. That’s what I’ve gotten for the last ten years between 3 jobs. I have zero growth opportunities, or potential to learn new things anymore unless my supervisor were to just up and quit. And then we’d all be screwed because she won’t teach me anything (yet while she’s gone on vacation I am expected to do her stuff and I do it well). I’m also interested in what it’s like working for people in your company as opposed to directly with clients. I am hopeful that if I end up with a larger company my skills would transfer. I’d like to grow them in that direction until I finish school.

        I have been reaching out to recruiters and some staffing agencies but so far no luck. I am on the suburbs of a bigger metro area so I know if I want larger corporations I will need to commute. But I’m just tired of finding vague job ad after job ad that says you’ll be working for the CEO/CIO and come to find out it’s a mom and pop shop wanting to pay $9/hr. Thank you for your experience. I will keep it in mind when interviewing and researching. I don’t want to just assume any job will be better but mine is just too toxic with luddites and nepotism.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I’ve been stuck in this hell for over three months. I’m an executive assistant so at this point, all of my bosses are VP, SVP, and/or C-suite folks.

          I’ve been there and done that where they want a bachelor’s degree, ten+ years of experience, report to multiple C-suite executives…and they want to pay $15 an hour because this is an “entry level position”. No, no, it is not.

          In my area (DC), EA jobs literally range from $35k to $120k and it’s not always dependent on the size of the company. I’ve seen places that have less than 100 employees pay in the higher range and very large corporations paying in the lowish to middling range. It’s maddening!

    4. Ex-Admin Asst*

      In my company, EAs work ONLY for a VP or above, and their salaries reflect that. The ones who work for Directors, Managers, or a department are called Admin Assistants. If you don’t want to ask about salary right out of the gate, it may help to ask who you’d be reporting to.

  51. Free Meerkats*

    No advice asked, just venting.

    In a meeting on Tuesday, I had to listen to a quadruple threat. Fast talking mumbler with vocal fry who has a strong Irish accent. And she’s an engineer who uses jargon like a sailor uses profanity; so I guess that’s quintuple… I managed to catch about one word of three.

    1. Argh!*

      Have you ever seen one of the interviews that Craig Ferguson did with Billy Connolly? I know exactly how you feel.

  52. Loopy*

    Such a silly question but when getting a thanks email, is sending a you’re welcome/no problem! email back really necessary??? I always feel rude not doing it but gosh with the volume of email most people get, it’s just another thing to delete, right?

    1. Rey*

      I never respond to short thanks email. If you are otherwise friendly and polite, I don’t think anyone will be offended.

    2. CTT*

      If it’s someone outside my org who’s sent it to me as not part of a thread/I haven’t communicated with via email before, I’ll respond just so they know it got there and have my email address right. But otherwise I usually don’t for the volume issue you mentioned

    3. Saffie Girl*

      Please – no “you’re welcome” emails. I view the “thanks” as giving the subtext as “I got what I requested and don’t need anything further” way to conclude the transaction.

    4. Not Maeby But Surely*

      As far as I know, it’s considered common email courtesy to NOT reply to an email that just says “Thanks.” (For the reason you mention.)

    5. Perse's Mom*

      Our company policy is to not even send the ‘Thanks’ email. It’s considered clutter and we all get enough emails, so stop it. Still happens sometimes, and I don’t mind it when I get them (but I’m not in a role that’s flooded with emails), but I also don’t usually respond to them.

  53. Anon for this post*

    My work email was hacked this week. I have no idea how it happened. There was a spam email sent from my account to many work acquaintances and some who I’ve never met but whose address was stored in my Outlook because we’ve been copied in the same thread before. I responded to as many calls and email replies as I could explaining the situation, and our IT cracked down and fixed the problem right away to prevent this from happening again. But I have do not have the complete list of who received the message, as the original spam letter is not in my sent or deleted folder (presumably at the work of the hacker). Therefore, I cannot reach out to everybody to proactively apologize. But this happened on Monday and chatter about it has basically ended.

    Will this situation leave a mark on my professional reputation in the future? I have never experienced a virus in my entire life and do not quite know how to bounce back from this. If you received a spam email from a work acquaintance’s account, would your opinion of them change?

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      No I get fake emails from coworkers all the time. It’s a fact of the world we are living in. I do however don my judgy hat when I looks at a coworker in the sister company who actually fell for a phishing scam, down to sending money. And somehow they still have a job.

      1. Anon for this post*

        Ah yes, this makes sense. I can only hope that I am not naive enough to fall prey to something like that.

    2. anonagain*

      I wouldn’t think less of you. I would feel bad that you had to deal with all that stress.

    3. Adaline B.*

      I would think “oof that sucks!” and that’d be that. Certainly wouldn’t think less of you. It’s not like it was something you did or could really control.

    4. Rosemary7391*

      I think I’d be somewhat concerned… but I’m not sure if it’d be about your security procedures or the organisation’s. Do you deal with confidential information ? Are you in a technical role?

      I got a communications account hacked once – because I reused a simple password and the other place got hacked. I’ve now fixed that problem. But I do expect any of my contacts on that service who noticed to think a bit less of me. (I hadn’t used the account for several years and could recall the messages). I’m in a tech field though so I should’ve known better.

      1. Anon for this post*

        To answer your initial questions: no confidential info, and not a technical role.

        I did recently have to change my password for unrelated reasons, but I probably could have been a bit more creative with the password I changed it to. That’s an interesting point, I wonder if that had something to do with it.

        1. Rosemary7391*

          I’d probably not fuss much then unless it started happening repeatedly.

          I use a password manager now so most of my passwords are literally just random letters/numbers/symbols and quite long, but another good way to generate secure passwords is to pick random words and string them together. Relevant xkcd: xkcd.com/936/

          That’s a fair point… at the moment I’m technically a student, so all the computer hardware I use is my own. Is it acceptable/normal practice to use a password manager in workplaces?

          1. DArcy*

            You might not be allowed to install it on a company computer, depending on your IT policy, but you can certainly use the phone version to generate and store your own password.

    5. JustaTech*

      I mean, if it happens over and over and over (literally at least 3+ times) then yes, I will remotely give some side eye. But it happens so often to so many people it’s not like I’m going to think “Anon for this post is a gibbering numpity”, I’m going to think “hey, folks should read things more carefully before clicking on links” or maybe even “gosh I wish our IT had some better filters!”

      Chances are excellent that no one will even remember by Monday.

    6. nonegiven*

      It wasn’t at work but I had to go on Facebook and explain I didn’t send the emails and to not click on the link. My contact list was hacked but they couldn’t send anything from my account. I got a couple of samples sent to me with full headers and they were only spoofing my email address to send to my contact list, the actual emails were being sent from Ukraine.

      My mom’s email got hacked and they deleted everything they sent and set it to delete incoming emails. That was fun until we managed to find the settings they changed. She’s lucky they didn’t delete her account. They logged into her account from South Africa. We figured out it started when the funeral home sent her a link to download a file.

    7. ..Kat..*

      If you have not changed your password since this happened, do so immediately. Since you are not technical, ask IT for information on how to prevent this happening again. Do this and you should be fine. However, if you are like my coworker who regularly spams me, you can suffer professionally from this.

  54. gretchen*

    It’s been a frustrating job search for me. Had one offer being prepared then go on hold or disappear when the organization went through a major leadership shift and thought another was in the bag but given the delays in contacting my references it’s clear I’m not the top choice but the runner up. I felt like I had a lot of momentum and am burnt out. No questions, just venting. I’ll pick myself up eventually but it’s hard to be so close and yet not have advanced at all.

    1. foolofgrace*

      I feel your pain, I’m in a similar boat. Get feedback that sounds exciting and then … radio silence. I have a WebEx interview this afternoon, wish me luck.

  55. Forking Great Username*

    I finallyyyyyyy got an interview! For a job teaching at my old high school. The current superintendent was the band director back when I was in high school, and at the time chose me for leadership positions. So I’m keeping my fingers crossed! This is the only interview I’ve gotten so far, so it’s likely that if I don’t get it I will be spending the year subbing. Which wouldn’t be the end of the world, but obviously I’d rather have a steady job with benefits and my own classroom. Currently doing a ton of research on the district’s current initiatives and focus areas and reading a book on preparing for teacher interviews. But I know there’s at least a few of you who are teachers or used to be – any advice you wish someone had given you for the interview process?

    1. Middle School Teacher*

      Good luck! I think doing research on the district initiatives is great, and make sure you can work them into the conversation organically. Definitely make sure you know what the school is about (has its focus changed since you were there? Are they more arts or academic-focused since your time?). I mention this because I sat on a hiring committee a few years ago, and our first question was always “We’re an X School. What do you know about that?” (Because we’re not a regular school.) And it was SO OBVIOUS who had researched it and who hadn’t. Painfully obvious.

    2. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Good news! Reading up on the district initiatives is an excellent idea. This is one time where you can throw all of those educational buzzwords and acronyms around like confetti.
      Some other advice
      – You said you know your interviewer? In that case, remember what you tell your students about their essays and pretend that you are complete strangers and he has no knowledge of your awesomeness. Don’t fall into the trap of “Well, superintendent already knows about my leadership skills so I don’t have to describe them in detail.”
      – Be prepared for questions about classroom management and including diverse learners. Your approach to these things in real life is probably a little bit different than the district initiatives, but try to talk about the things that you’ve done that stick to the official procedure as much as you can. (Ie. with behaviour, talk about the time when you took the student aside and had a quiet conversation, contacted parents and filled out the appropriate paperwork, not so much about the times when you raise your eyebrow and say the student’s name in an “I mean business’ kind of way.)

    3. Jen*

      I sat on an interview committee last year. My superintendent always asks, “Why do you want to work at this district?” According to him, the correct answer is to list all the great things about our district, NOT because it’s closer to home or because your kids attend or the pay is better. You want to work there because it’s The Best!

  56. Decima Dewey*

    I have a partial update on the Matthias situation. Apparently Matthias decided the hole he dug for himself when he insulted Grandboss 20 times and was escorted from the branch wasn’t deep enough. He sent an ugly and inflammatory email to a bunch of people (but not Mr. Lastname or Grandboss, since the email was about how horrible they are), including me. The email included three attachments, one of them repeating allegations he’d made about a previous supervisor, which previous supervisor denied. Previous supervisor was included in the email. She is seeking legal counsel.

    So Matthias has threatened Grandboss, a Workplace Violence Report has been filed. HR called this week wanting to know when Matthias was scheduled to appear at the branch, since they have directives that must be in place before he came in. I told them when he was scheduled, and that I had not seen him since he was escorted from the branch.

    I suspect that Matthias has been suspended with intent to dismiss.

  57. Jenn*

    AAM community, how do you know when it’s time to switch careers? I still feel like there’s a lot to learn in my current field, but I’ve been bored with my work for at least 6 months and I don’t see it getting better.

    2. Saffie Girl*

      There is always more to learn in any field. The question becomes “where to go?” If you don’t know the answer, take this chance to explore different facets of the current career to see if something clicks and you can try out some new things without going through a major career change that may not work for you.

      If you do know where to go – then run to it!

  58. Pseudonomnomnom*

    How strange would it be to call references for someone I’ve already worked with for several years? This person was previously my team lead, until I moved to a different department, and then a different company. A couple years later, I’m now helping my boss at the new company to hire someone for whom I’d be their team lead (and likely their manager further on), and my former lead is in the running. I know this person and their work pretty well, but I’ve never been responsible for managing their performance before, and would like to get perspective on that.

    Very relevant: last year we hired a different person who had been a peer of mine at the old company, and it did not go very well. I thought their work from Old Job had been a lot better than what they ended up producing at New Job. Again, I wasn’t responsible for managing them at Old Job. They ended up leaving in under a year. I found out after the fact that my boss had not checked any references (beyond my recommendation as a peer), and am to this day very curious what our mutual former managers would have said about this person has they been asked.

    2. DaniCalifornia*

      I would check them. Treat it like any other candidate. And then it’s also a CYA in case they don’t work out!

  59. Amy Farrah Fowler*

    I got a promotion this week at work! I had my annual review last month, and everything went really well, but it was very hush-hush about how raises work and stuff (I’ve only been with them slightly over a year), so I got an annual adjustment (x% based on performance) PLUS the promotion ($X000 added to my base pay). Overall it ended up being about a 12% increase! SO EXCITED!

  60. Even Steven*

    Just an update and a thank you! Back in May I asked the AAM brain trust how risky it is to quit a job without another lined up. My incredibly toxic, chaotic, stressful job caused such health problems that I couldn’t see how to get healthy and stay at the same place. You folks were full of comfort, inspiration and practical ideas (CAA especially – a shout out and HUGE thank you!). I budgeted and plotted and planned, and left my job a week ago today. I am so relieved I can’t even describe it.

    The three week notice period was horrible – there was enormous daily pressure from the partner team to document everything and beyond, and panicked, demanding coworkers pressuring me contantly to attend to all matters small and large (that they had put off giving me), so that they would not have to deal with my interim replacement, the CEO. My mantra – ‘not my circus, not my monkeys”…… it really helped.

    The only hitch in the matter – while making sure I used all covered health benefits before leaving, I had a test that is pointing towards a serious illness beyond the health issues I was already having. But truly, I am still completely content with my decision. Working there was bad enough, but being seriously ill while working there would have been untenable. I have savings and can devote time to health now. I do fear the time it will take to find a new job, and I will have to overcome ageism (I’m in my 50s) and the stigma of being an unemployed job applicant, but so what? Our time on this planet is so limited, and waking up without the sick feeling of dread every weekday is worth the challenges I am about to face.

    So thank you, dear AAM folks! You really made a difference in my life.

      1. Even Steven*

        Hey Temperance! Thank you – great tip. I have done just that, but as a warning to all – because ‘open enrollment’ is only allowed for American health exchange plans (around December, I think?), only those with a “qualifying event” can sign up at other times. Lucky for me, loss of employer coverage is my qualifying event. BUT – providing proof of loss of coverage from my employer and following some other cumbersome steps added a surprising delay to it all. The insurer advises against booking health treatments before coverage is confirmed, so I am in a holding pattern right now to get insurance established and then book everything. I am grateful that I can wait a bit to seek treatment until it all comes together. And yeah! I am grateful that I am free!

    2. All Hail Queen Sally*

      Hang in there! Toxic jobs take a larger toll on our lives than most people realize. I am in my early 60’s and decided to “retire” early last year after being let go because of being unable to keep up with the workload. A co-worker had left and they decided to not replace her. It was awful. I hated it–I knew I would never be able to get caught up. I felt like Lucy and Ethel in the chocolate factory. I was having some health issues of my own, so I decided to just take some time off although I could ill afford it. What a difference it has made to my life. Many people have commented how how I look and seem happier and healthier. I am volunteering a few hours a week at two different places (to build contacts and experiences). Money is a real struggle, but I wouldn’t do anything differently and for once, I feel like I am in control of my life.

      1. Even Steven*

        You are aptly named, Your Highness. Much wisdom! I hope to come out on the same end as you – content and in control. I am a single income household, so I can’t put as much energy into volunteering and will have to kick the job search into high gear once my health stuff is tackled (or at least on track). But that’s ok. I am glad to have inspiration from you! Thank you for your story!

      1. CAA*

        Also, if you have time, feel free to join us over at early-retirement.org. The people there are amazing at sorting through complicated financial situations, healthcare options, etc. Most of the analysis is of the “can I retire yet” sort, but even if you’re not at that point, you can still get some helpful advice on current finances and career paths. It’s a very congenial and supportive group.

        1. Even Steven*

          There you are! CAA, thank you for everything! You really set me free of the heavy feelings of duty and obligation. So much lighter! I would rather be me with a serious illness than be one of the company partners stuck with a miserably unhappy staff and 100% annual turnover. I marvel at that every day now.

          And yes, thank you! I will check out the website – even if I expect my gravestone will read “So this is what it took to finally retire.” Like most of my peers I expect to be working into old age (if the young hiring managers will allow it….but that’s another story).

          CAA, you rock!

  61. JustaTech*

    When your HR department says “we do not provide references” does that mean that individual employees are not allowed to be references, even if they say “I am speaking as myself and not as a representative of Blah Corporation”?

    1. Forking Great Username*

      I’ve always assumed that meant the HR department itself would not provide references, and that individual employees (managers, etc.) still can, but I suppose it would depend on the specific wording.

    2. Nines*

      Most places I’ve been have had a statement you can sign to “allow” your manager to give a reference for you. But I’m not 100% sure how it all works. That seems to be more of a thing now and I find it incredibly odd. What do you do when you apply for your next job?!

    1. Rey*

      Yay, but if there is someone you trust, you could wear a pair and ask them. Even some conservative workplaces don’t mind crazy socks as much as say, crazy hair.

    3. Temperance*

      It depends on what you mean by “crazy socks”. I’ve seen some men here wear colorful socks with tasteful, conservative suits and it looks great. However, they aren’t toe socks or froggy socks or childish looking in any way.

      When I wear sneakers to work, I wear low-cut Wonder Woman socks, but I have somewhat of a nerd rep to uphold. I don’t wear them when I am dressing up for work, though, usually just on a casual or business-casual-but-i’m-wearing-sneakers day.

        1. Temperance*

          He does not, lol! His job is fairly casual and he only wears two brands of socks (for laziness reasons, we both hate pairing socks and he always loses them).

    6. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      I love and wear them in the colder months – I have a few pair from Blue Q that are kind of inappropriate, but the wording isn’t on the visible part of the sock. My favorite ones say “This Meeting is Bullshit”.

    7. Nessun*

      My boss loves crazy socks – always matches them very well with a slightly-less-crazy tie. You can’t always see them unless he’s sitting in a meeting or at his desk, legs crossed, but they’re always there! (He’s a C-suite level accountant, for reference.)

    8. NW Mossy*

      A colleague of mine once pulled up his pant leg to show off a pair of socks emblazoned with the phrase “F*** this meeting,” which his wife apparently purchased for him as a piece of secretly rebellious apparel.

    9. Anonymosity*

      Yay. I love crazy socks and would hate working in an office where my socks were policed.

    10. DaniCalifornia*

      I buy my husband crazy socks. He is usually in slacks or dressy pants and button ups. No one minds. They are all engineers so I get him ones with math equations, Tesla’s face and death ray machine, etc. I think it’s fun.

      I guess it depends on work culture. Can you only see the socks when you sit down or have legs crossed?

  63. Vertigo*

    Is it weird to apply to a lower position at a company after being rejected for one the next level up, and if not, how do I edit my cover letter so it’s not the exact same one I sent before? I applied for a position that was a bit of a reach, and while I got interviews, I didn’t get hired and they mentioned they had given the position to someone internal. Now they just put a listing up for an assistant job in the same department (it seems like the person in that position got promoted) that is closer to the type of support role I’m in now. The first position was for a specific part of the department, starting as mostly administrative & organization type support but would eventually get bigger projects, whereas this position is an assistant to support the department more generally.

    I really need to get out of my current job very badly, but I also don’t want to look like an out of touch desperate weirdo…

    1. AlternateIdentity*

      Assuming you didn’t spend the previous interviews talking about how much you hated your current level of responsibility/job duty, I think it’d be fine. That’s basically how I got my current job – the first posting was a little out of my skill set / comfort zone but I went for it anyway, and they found someone who was a better fit. But the 2nd job 6 months later was only a small bit more than what I was currently doing, and since part of the reason I was looking was because I wanted into the new company, it worked out perfectly. Though the nearly-identical interview was a bit odd – everyone kept stumbling over similar questions and answers.
      As for the cover letter, I’d just adjust it to match the current job description (which imo should be done for any application) – So – ” I was happy to see the Teapot Assistant polisher job open up – I have been polishing my skills assisting Teapot Polishers for years and think I’d be a strong candidate for the position. My 5 years of experience helping to polish teapots has given me a steady hand” etc. But you can leave it similar – just tweak it a bit so it’s not an obvious copy.

    2. Cedrus Libani*

      I don’t think this is weird. You’re applying for two similar jobs, even if one was a bit more senior. You’re not throwing your resume at everything from CEO to coffee station stocker.

      If your previous cover letter was trying to make the case that you could handle the more senior role, you could dial back on that. And if you had a good interview and learned more about the company, you could bring that in. “I interviewed for a similar position in the chocolate teapot division in March 2018, and was impressed by the [polite synonym for ‘lack of obvious crazy’]. I would be excited to contribute to [thing they said was important], having done [something similar in the past].”

    3. AnonInfinity*

      A while back, I applied for an Assistant Director of Department X position, didn’t get an interview (or even contacted – I had no experience in the industry, though I did have management experience), and then applied for a clerical/receptionist/assistant position in Department Y (foot in the door and I was desperate). I got hired for the receptionist/assistant position. It was a completely different hiring team, though.

      But…you DID get interviews (!), which means that the company thought you were qualified to be a contender for the next-level-up position. Overall, I think it depends on how big a difference there is between the position you had interviews for and the assistant position. It doesn’t sound like it’s that big of a difference (i.e., like my Assistant Director vs. receptionist applications), and there is some indication the assistant gap was created because the former assistant moved up into the job you interviewed for. If all that is correct, then I don’t think it’d look weird for you to apply – just keeping in mind that you’ll probably be interviewing with the same hiring team, they’re going to be wondering why you want the lower position, and they’re going to be worried you’ll get frustrated and leave if you don’t promote quickly (especially since the job you wanted JUST got filled by someone internal, so it’s probably not going to be open again for a long while).

      I would probably apply, address the prior interviews/position in the cover letter, and try to leverage it as you really want to work for this company because A, B, and C, and that department specifically because X, Y, and Z. Me personally, I would try to soften or adjust my first cover letter to account for the lower position. But don’t ignore the first go-round – if you do that, it will look weird, especially because you had interviews.

      Good luck!

  64. Erin*

    Does anyone do any silly The Office-type work games to pass the time during the day and entertain yourself?

    One time, I remarked to a coworker “Jim” that our coworker “Sam” had a sneeze like in Ferris Bueller, when he has the keyboard with the sick sounds, like coughing and sneezing. We got into the habit of Skyping each other “Ferris Sneeze” when Sam sneezed. That somehow turned into a game of who could say it first, and now we keep track with a spreadsheet of who is “winning” the Ferris Sneeze Game. Spoiler alert: It’s me.

    1. Elemeno P.*

      My coworker and I created Bingo sheets for a weekly call we have with someone. We showed him one and he thought it was funny.

    2. LibraryBug*

      I put together a Bingo sheet for my service desk staff at a previous job during a really stressful and busy few weeks. I included some nice things (“customer genuinely thanked me for my help,” “assisted a favorite repeat customer,”) and some frustrating things (“customer argued about a very minimal fine,” “customer tried to use a card that didn’t belong to them). I didn’t let them keep it or work on it at the desk (it could be seen as rude if a customer saw it) but when it slowed down they would pop in the back room and take a minute to talk about their “Bingo.” It seemed to relieve a lot of tension that came with busy times and allowed everyone to spin it to something almost fun.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I have a friend who was a floral buyer for a chain of retail stores. Needless to say, January/February were pretty awful for her. They made bingo cards every year of the common issues that cropped up and would cross off squares as those things happened. One year, they almost blacked out their cards.

    4. NW Mossy*

      Years ago, I was in a position where I was exposed to a lot of names, so a colleague and I came up with a game we called “The Picnic.” Every time either one of us came across someone’s name that was a food or beverage, that person was “invited to The Picnic.” I don’t remember all of the ones we found, but the last names Beer, Pizza, and Pickle were definitely part of the guest list.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        At my father’s office, there was a mysterious entity that called itself The Committee and would post things on the bulletin board like “The Committee voted 7 to 3 to wish Higher Up a happy birthday.”

    5. Mickey Q*

      I got a Gumby and Mr. Potato Head at a yard sale and hid them in the office. When someone found one of them they would hide it in someone else’s office. It went on for years until we could no longer find them.

      1. Come along Ponds*

        In an old job years ago we used to keep giving each other this Everybody Loves Raymond dvd nobody wanted – we would hide it in each other’s bags and stuff. It went on for months.

    6. Anonymosity*

      I guess all my coworkers are boring; I’ve never done this. Though I did once have a Dark Knight quote war with the FedEx guy at OldExjob–every time he came in, we would both throw a quote at each other. We kept it going for weeks. I won (it helped that I’d seen the film eight times). :)

    7. Windchime*

      A friend and I made a drinking game for a weekly call. One of the participants has a lot of folksy sayings, and my friend and I Skype each other a drink emoji every time he says certain phrases. About halfway through the meeting, one of us usually switches to coffee.

  65. rosenstock*

    I’ve been pretending to sympathize and agree when people complain about the cold in our office but honestly…. I love it. I tend to run really warm and feel right at home in the arctic blast. I’d never ask them to make it colder (for the sake of my coworkers), but I think I’m the only one in my huge building happy with the status quo temp ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    1. Nanc*

      I run cold but my logic says I can always put on another layer wherein someone who runs hot can only take off so much before HR has to get involved!

    2. BuffaLove*

      Hey, someone should get to enjoy it! I run super cold and don’t mind making provisions since I know it’s unreasonable to keep the office at 78 all summer, but there’s nothing I hate more than having people secretly jack the thermostat down to 68 when they know that half of the office is freezing at 70.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m the person who is always wearing sleeveless tops and has a fan on even when all the people around me have blankets on.

      1. ..Kat..*

        I have not worn a jacket in years! I used to always be cold, but now I run warm. Sadly, I have many cute jackets!

    4. you don't know me*

      I’m with you. There are only 5 of us in this office and four of them are always cold. They each have small heater at their desk (approved and issued by workplace) and wear sweaters too. I on the other hand am just as comfy as can be!

  66. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

    I asked this question last week and got 4 great replies, but I think I posted a bit too late so I’m hoping reposting gets some more answers. :)

    Alison’s got a ton of great advice for quote-unquote regular resumes, but I know it’s come up before that that’s not applicable to all fields. Academia and government, for example.

    Can any federal employees offer some insight into what is expected in a resume for a government job? What are the major differences in expected content? (For example, I know that it’s standard practice to list if you’re a citizen, where that’s definitely not standard for private companies.) What makes a resume for a government job stand out enough to get moved forward in the process?

    Relatedly, back when I was fresh out of grad school, I applied for some government jobs that asked for writing samples as part of the application. At that time, I used sections of papers I had written while in school, because they were relatively recent and topical to the job. But I’m now five years out from graduation, and I don’t currently work in a field that uses my writing skills at all. How should I handle applying for those jobs now? Does the content of a writing sample submission need to have something to do with the job that’s being applied for?

    1. Tiny Teapot*

      Hi! I can definitely assist with this if you’re in the USA. If you are, want to give a general field/area that you’re looking to move into within government?

      1. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

        State Department (civil or foreign service, but probably civil), or defense/intelligence.

    2. Not All Who Wander*

      Based on the 3 agencies (two departments) I’ve been on hiring panels for over the last couple decades, here are mine:

      -USE USAJOBS FORMS. Do not upload your own (except things like the cover letter). Just fill in the information on USAJobs and & let it auto-create for you. Everyone from HR to to Hiring Officials to Hiring Committee members are used to the way that looks and when we get several hundred applicants for a position, someone whose information is in an easy, familiar format will get the edge over someone we have to try to figure out
      -include many times the amount of detail you would for a private resume. Think of it as an application not a resume. 90% of the hiring decision is made from the information on your application because we are so limited in what we can ask for individualized questions during interviews. All candidates get the same list of questions to answer…there is no “tell me more about what you did for XYZ job” like in private. (If there is, it’s at least a yellow flag about whether that person is going to be good about following policies and regulations.)
      -go heavy on that other skills and trainings section
      -realize you will be screened by someone from HR who has no idea what the job actually does & strictly is going off the position description before you ever make it to the hiring office
      -if you are eligible for ANY special hiring authority, use it. In 20 years and excluding jobs where thousands of people are hired seasonally like fire crews, I can count on one hand the number of times the public cert wasn’t blocked by a vet. Even if you are far, far more qualified, if there is a vet and you can’t match those preference points, they can’t offer you the job. It sucks, but there are very few ways around it.

      I’m sure there are agencies where this doesn’t apply, but it does in the 3 I’m familiar with. (I seem to end up on at least a couple hiring committees every year.)

      1. Lady Kelvin*

        In additional to all this:
        -Have the job description next to you while you are filling in your resume and make sure you use the key words/phrases in the job description while you describe your resposibilities/achievements. –
        -Assume more detail is better than less.
        -If you don’t pick the “I’m an expert, have done this forever” for all the questions in the application, you won’t get through. (Because special hiring authority gets through first, always).
        -If it is a job that requires a specific education/set of coursework, include a list of the courses you took and course descriptions. The person reviewing your application will not be someone with any experience in your field. In my case, just because the course title says it is Bayesian Statistics, it can’t possibly be a math class because it is not listed as MATH 9458 on my transcripts. Despite having a PhD in the exact field the fed jobs are looking for (and the job description requires), I have been told I don’t meet the basic requirements for the job because the course numbers don’t match their list of approved course numbers. But my fed colleagues tell me they have to post a job over and over again (for years sometimes) because the only people who make it through the process are vets/special hiring authority folks who don’t even have bachelor’s degrees in the right field.
        -USA jobs often has webinars to help you go through the application process. I sat through one where we could ask the guy questions at the end. It was useful.
        -If you know a fed ask them to help you fill out the application. They know how hard it is to get through and can help.
        -There are also books about getting through the process. Check your local library.

  67. insomnia op*

    I’m the OP from a few months back who was hoping to go on her honeymoon in August despite FMLA and insomnia. I actually just sent an update in to Allison on one part of it, but after I sent in that update I had my long-awaited doctor’s visit with the specialist and he took a totally different tack, namely that he thinks I don’t have insomnia, I have a circadian rhythm disorder, and he made medication changes, wrote me out some lifestyle changes he wanted me to try that were much more specific and far-reaching than anything else I’d done before, and I’m already seeing a difference!! I’ve been more alert and on time for work, I’m falling asleep at a decent time, and I feel SO much better! And it’s been less than a week, which is really early to name it a success, but I’m just so excited I had to share since I didn’t know when my update would get posted and I’ll have to post in the comments of that one about this particular element.

    1. Celeste*

      Wow, that’s a super update!!! I’m so glad you found an answer! Kudos to that super doctor of yours.

    2. insomnia op*

      And to make it a little more work relevant, I now have a former(retired) coworker who I have vented to about our increaad bugging me to ask for a raise. She doesn’t know all of the details or constant struggles of my health, just that I’m being underpaid for my work and why wouldn’t I want to ask for a raise/title bump!? I’m hopeful that something will be forthcoming for all staff who’ve gotten more work, but I’m not holding my breath and I’m certainly in no position to be asking for anything after missing so much work, even if it is for an illness. In the mean time, I keep having to remind her that one or two weeks of good work and no absences does not mean I can suddenly ask for a raise and expect anything but incredulous laughter.

    3. LibraryBug*

      This might be too personal, but I can I ask if you saw a sleep specialist or a different kind of doctor? I’m in the middle of being shuffled among specialists for intense fatigue but no one seems to have an answer.

      1. insomnia op*

        It was a sleep specialist. This was actually my second sleep specialist as the first one kept trying to just put me on a CPAP machine despite that clearly not being my problem. I just kept pushing and pushing until someone had an answer, and it has taken almost a year to get to this point, but I have some kind of answer. So definitely just keep trying until you find someone who can give you something. Hell, try two of the same specialist like I did if you have to.

        1. LibraryBug*

          Thank you for the suggestion! I’m glad you finally got an answer and the help you needed.

    4. nonegiven*

      I’d love to know more about treatments for circadian rhythm disorder. Googling has not turned up anything useful that I didn’t know already. I’ve only tried regular sleeping pills as far as meds go. Maybe you can post something about it on the weekend open thread? What ever time I manage to fall asleep, I wake pretty often until 6 am or so.

      1. DataGirl*

        I’d love to know more too. Pretty certain that my teen has this but I’m reluctant to pursue a sleep specialist as my experiences in the past have been pretty dismal (was told I don’t have a sleep disorder, I’m just tired because I miss my husband when he travels. UGH) Anyway I’m glad you are feeling better insomnia op!

        1. insomnia op*

          Everything I read said that delayed circadian rhythm is very common in young adults and teens. Part of it is that the rhythm naturally trends delayed at that time of life and it’s well documented, but that also makes teens more vulnerable to the delayed rhythm affecting them for longer. My other comment below outlines what he told me to do, but I’ll C+P for you:

          Honestly, everything he told me to do was pretty “simple” and things I’d already tried before, but way more intense and stricter than I’d ever tried. He told me that I have to take my sleeping pill at 8:30pm, that from there on I can’t be on the computer or my phone, and I can’t watch or read anything interesting (gripping). I can only watch or read mindless stuff, and I’m not allowed to work out 6 hours before 8pm, I have to eat at least 2 hours before 8pm, I have to wake up as early as I can (his suggestion was 6am) and get into the sunlight ASAP and walk outside enough to raise my heart rate and spent at least 30m in the sunlight. Basically to reset my rhythm as best as possible.

          It’s hard as hell to get going, and honestly might not be the best treatment for a teen, I don’t know. I hope you can find someone to go see, because my teenage years were absolutely horrible when it came to sleeping and I was very depressed because of it.

      2. insomnia op*

        Honestly, everything he told me to do was pretty “simple” and things I’d already tried before, but way more intense and stricter than I’d ever tried. He told me that I have to take my sleeping pill at 8:30pm, that from there on I can’t be on the computer or my phone, and I can’t watch or read anything interesting (gripping). I can only watch or read mindless stuff, and I’m not allowed to work out 6 hours before 8pm, I have to eat at least 2 hours before 8pm, I have to wake up as early as I can (his suggestion was 6am) and get into the sunlight ASAP and walk outside enough to raise my heart rate and spent at least 30m in the sunlight. Basically to reset my rhythm as best as possible.

        FWIW, if you’re waking up regularly it might not be circadian rhythm disorder, which from what he told me is characterized pretty well as having normal uninterrupted sleep but on a) a different clock, instead of 24h it’s 27h, or 28h, etc. or b) a delayed or advanced clock, i.e. sleeping 8 hours but instead of 10pm-6am, it’s 2am-10am or 7pm-3am.

  68. JobinPolitics*

    Bait and Switch Job

    After months of applying and interviewing, I secured a field organizer position with a coordinated campaign to elect Democrats up and down the ballot. The position was far from advertised, and I resigned siting misalignment with my expectations and career goals.

    Please see my concerns about the position and let me know if I just misunderstood the objectives or if you believe the position is strangely designed.

    1. Time Off: No one could agree on if staff were to work six or seven days a week. The first wave of hires from May and June were told they could have a weekday-Monday through Thursday-off to recharge, but the July hires were told they must work each day of the week now through the Nov. 6 election. Management referred to the different schedules and demand for for clarity as an “outcry” and finally did agree to allow everyone to select a day off until 60 days out from the election.

    2. Bring Your Own Device: The campaign required all field organizers to use their own cell phones, computers and other devices for all contact. This includes requiring all field organizers to download three security apps for both their phone and computer to access the campaign’s gmail account and setting up a two-factor security check for all personal email accounts used by the organizer. The campaign’s digital security policy also mandated that all Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and other platform accounts be scrubbed and possibly suspended, if they could not be brought into line with the campaign’s standards. Once cleaned up, organizers were expected to use their personal accounts to engage with volunteers via Facebook, Twitter, etc.

    3. Mileage Reimbursement: Neither the offer letter nor the three-day training covered the policy for documenting and receiving reimbursement for driving to and from each organizer’s assigned turf.

    4. Unclean Work Environment: During the training, the state director made clear that nearly all the bunkers and field offices had a vermin problem. She indicated that half-eaten pizza boxes and fruit attracted rats and insects that were difficult to remove.

    5. Unsafe Parking Area: All field organizers were required to walk four blocks through a construction zone to the bunker, including at 8:30 p.m. each night after completing final reports and close-out meetings. I did not feel safe doing this, and my director informed me that nothing could be done.

    Reflecting on the list, I know the field organizer position isn’t for me. I like structure, a clean environment and a general feeling of safety and security.

    What are your thoughts, AAM Community? Has anyone done a tour of duty as a field organizer? Is this typical?

    1. Celeste*

      I’ve always heard that field organizer is a job for a rare breed, and now I know why! YIKES. And every Democratic Party building I’ve ever been in has been a dump in a crappy part of town. FWIW I couldn’t hack that, either.

    2. misc.*

      I’ve never done this kind of work but I’m horrified on your behalf and glad you aren’t doing this work, it sounds terrible and just really a very bad idea. Sadly I’m sure it’s taking advantage of young, passionate individuals who might not recognize the ridiculous nature of some of this.

    3. KatieKate*

      Every story that my field organizer friends have shared have been fascinating to listen too because of all of these reasons. I have never heard one that isn’t a dumpster fire, even with the most good and qualified candidates. And these from people who go back every two/four years! All I can say is: good luck, take notes for your future novel, and find your sanity where you can get it.

      1. JobinPolitics*

        KatieKate:

        Thank you for sharing that your friends have experienced similar “dumpster fire” environments in the name of being idealistic field organizers.

        I should clarify that I expressed concerns to my supervisor and other campaign leaders during the three-day training and was summarily dismissed. This caused me to resign after lunch on my fourth day on the job. Thankfully, this meant I hadn’t yet visited my turf for a phone bank, so my director excused me from giving a two-week notice (for a three-month job?).

        Within hours of my leaving the team, another organizer reached out and asked if I knew of any other jobs. He has 15 years of government/political experience and only took the position to support his wife and two children. I referred him to several job postings and websites. I hope he finds something worthy of his vast skill set.

    4. Holly*

      Um – ” I like structure, a clean environment and a general feeling of safety and security.” A field organizer position is not going to be the right way for you to get involved. You are literally “in the field” and that’s going to mean going to new places and environments and working for campaigns that have extremely limited resources. Walking four blocks through construction at 8:30pm does not sound alarming at all to me, in fact, quite normal, but I’m from NYC and maybe it’s different where you’re located. Number 2 sounds normal as well. Not sure how political org could get personal devices for everyone, that’s a huge expense.

      The issue about actual workplace requirements being unclear is not good, though.

      1. JobinPolitics*

        Holly:

        Thanks for the input!

        I’m in a large Midwestern city, not Chicago, that’s recently had an uptick in gun-related crimes, particularly in the area around the party offices. NYC cultural norms don’t really apply to this area, sorry.

        With regards to the personal devices, I don’t really have an issue using my own phone or computer. My concern stems from the requirement of scrubbing existing social media and using it to promote the campaign. Legal precedent sides with an employee’s right to use his/her accounts for their own communications, even on company-owned devices.

        Last thing, the way field organizing was explained during the training and my first day was that at least 40 percent of each organizer’s day would be spent in campaign-oriented meetings, quota checks, and Voter Activation Network (VAN) updates located in the bunker. The field part was less important because the focus was on the numbers (minimum of 750 call attempts a week, 12-20 one-on-one meetings, and 10-30 volunteer shifts required).

        In conclusion, this job is certainly not for people who prefer autonomy and standard professional conduct. I will stick with volunteering for campaigns and let the bright-eyed recent grads handle the organizing.

          1. JobinPolitics*

            WellRed:

            The bunker is what the basement of the party headquarters is called where field organizers, fellows, and (randomly) a call bank for a senator’s re-election campaign are set up. There’s apparently no specific field office for the organizers, so you’re seated in a large open room with about 20 people making various calls to potential volunteers and donors.

            I hope that answers your question.

      2. Observer*

        Actually #2 is ridiculous for an org like this. It places a huge burden on staff. If you pretend to care about workers, that’s not a good look. Beyond that it’s a security nightmare.

    5. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      I have no advice but sympathy. I knew someone who was an organizer for a political party in another country and it the working conditions were similar to yours. He was issued a work laptop but had to use his personal email and phone, and during a visit to rival territory not only there were no reimbursements, but he also ended sleeping at the airport because the hotel booking was misteriously cancelled. On the bright side, he was really well paid and left with excellent references.

    6. DCR*

      I was a field organizer for an election cycle right after college, and this all sounds normal to me. (Luckily it was before the take off social media being used for everything, so I didn’t have to use my social media accounts for work.) Fieldwork is a unique experience, and isn’t for everyone. But politics in general is in a very structured field. If that’s what you’re looking for I would consider more policy related jobs.

        1. JobinPolitics*

          DCR:

          Thanks for the commiseration!

          I actually am trying to move from politics to policy, but given that I don’t have a degree in the appropriate field and am competing against many who do, it’s tough going.

          Again, I appreciate your take on the field organizer job. I just don’t believe that working in a dirty, stressful and disorganized environment is good for me in terms of career or general health.

  69. Get me out!*

    I had a fantastic second interview for a position I’m super excited about two Mondays ago, they said I’d know “mid-next-week”, followed up last Friday (which now I regret after reading Allison’s advice), they said they’d try to decide on Monday…and nothing. ToxicJob just keeps getting worse and crazier and I’m desperate to know either way. How long do I wait before I mentally give up? I won’t follow up again, but it’s killing me.

    1. foolofgrace*

      It’s hard to mentally detach but you should try, for our own sanity. As Alison says, then if the job comes thru it’s a happy surprise. I’ve been in that boat more times than I can say. With me, I just don’t let myself get very excited anymore. I’ve been let down too many times.

      1. Get me out!*

        If I don’t get it, I can’t resume searching until after a big project completes end-September (or else I will get a bad reference since I left at an important time for my position). I’ve also been taking lots of days off for interviews so I’ve stopped searching after this round and my direct supervisor just learned I’m searching from one of my coworkers, unfortunately. My direct supervisor isn’t going to tell her boss, but it’s still really uncomfortable and I want to get out even more. So, if this falls through (they told me it was between me and someone else) I just have to wait it out.

  70. EpicFailure*

    I just started a new job 2 months ago. Today I have to resign. Since the second week it’s been obvious that my boss does not like me. Nothing that I do is right. She keeps saying “you’ve been here 2 months” like I should have it all figured out already without guidance.

    She berates me when I ask questions, then condescendingly tells me I should have asked for clarification when a projects isn’t what she wanted. Her vocabulary isn’t great. What I mean by that is that she seems to use a lot of words incorrectly and it’s a recipe for disaster. For instance, she asked me to set up a bi-monthly meeting, then was upset because she meant every other week. I’d actually tried to clarify this, by asking if she meant bi-weekly or every other week, but she insisted she meant bi-monthly. All I can figure is that she thinks bi-monthly is twice a month? She gave me a list of about 75 items to complete while she was on vacation. Then she left for 2+ weeks. I of course couldn’t finish all this. And the items I did finish were apparently not the high priority items. When I asked her to help me by giving me better deadlines or priorities she kind of mocked me and said she shouldn’t have to do that for someone at my level.

    She sends me nasty emails and CCs our VP and tells me that I have not motivation to perform my job properly, that
    I’m below expectations, and that I have no desire to develop further.

    She even insults my looks/clothes/hair. One day she said “oh, so you *can* look nice” because I had worn a dress/heels/makeup for an outdoor event.

    It seems that her intention is to fire me before my probationary period is up. I’ve spoken to HR about an internal transfer but they move very slowly around here (education). But more than anything I’m upset and humiliated. I feel like I have to resign to keep my dignity. And so that I can get out of this horrible situation. I am able to pick up freelance work easily. I just feel like a terrible failure.

    1. misc.*

      You don’t sound like a failure! Your boss does sound horrible, and I’m sorry you’re going through this.

    2. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      I’m sorry, not all managers are like this. She sounds like she’s in the “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change” category. You are lucky you can pick up freelance work. Do what you need to do to keep your sanity, keep your chin up! Work for people that appreciate you. Good luck!

    3. EpicFailure*

      Oh yeah, I almost forgot. It seems silly, but the tipping point was yesterday when she brought in fancy cupcakes for the other 2 ladies in the department and not me. It’s so petty.

      I’ve certainly never received feedback like this before and I’m well-qualified and capable of doing my job.

    5. Waiting for the Sun*

      Sorry you’re going through that. The comment on your appearance was way out of line, unless you’ve been showing up in sweats and flip-flops, lol.
      Get registered at a temp agency, ASAP,

    6. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Holy crap. This person is a petty, nasty, demeaning, jerk. I ran out of adjectives. But yeah, they suck and this is in no way an accurate reflection of your capabilities or qualities.

      You’re not a failure. Your boss is.

    7. Windy Willow*

      Bimonthly is, rather frustratingly, used to mean both “twice a month” and “every two months”. So on that one she has half a point, maybe.

      On everything else she sounds like a nightmare! Sorry you’re having to deal with her.

      1. Come along Ponds*

        No, it’s not. It means every other month. Anyone using it to mean anything else is using it incorrectly.

    8. soon 2be former fed*

      FWIW, bi monthly can mean twice a week or twice a month. Gotta love English.

    9. Anonymosity*

      You’re not a failure at all. Your boss is an ass.

      I had a job like this after I was laid off. No matter what I did, I couldn’t do it right. The boss lied about certain aspects of the job when she hired me. She constantly talked about how incompetent my predecessor was. One of my coworkers was so horrible the receptionist kept taking time off (she said she had back problems, but I think it was to get away from The Antichrist) and I had to cover her so often I barely got any of my own work done. I worked there for two months and then finally was like, F*ck this, and I quit. It was a huge relief to be out of there.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      That is a boss that has no idea how to manage people.

      No, you have to resign out of respect for yourself. It would be disrespectful to your own self to force yourself to stay in that hot mess.

      May I suggest that you refuse to carry her sense of failure for her. Your boss has failed on so many levels. You will move on, you will find parts of yourself again and you will be okay in the long run. Your boss, not so much. She is the one who is the Life Long Epic Failure. You don’t even come close.

    11. betty (the other betty)*

      Your boss is a jerk for not helping you clarify the ambiguous term used.

      From Merriam-Webster:
      “What do bimonthly and biweekly mean?”

      “Many people are puzzled about bimonthly and biweekly, which are often ambiguous because they are formed from two different senses of bi-: “occurring every two” and “occurring two times.” This ambiguity has been in existence for nearly a century and a half and cannot be eliminated by the dictionary. The chief difficulty is that many users of these words assume that others know exactly what they mean, and they do not bother to make their context clear. So if you need bimonthly or biweekly, you should leave some clues in your context to the sense of bi- you mean. And if you need the meaning “twice a,” you can substitute semi- for bi-. Biannual and biennial are usually differentiated.”

  71. Everdene*

    Oh em gee!! What a week it has been! Low was getting formal grievance letter in from a report who feels they haven’t been supported. High was recieving a significant funding grant for my service. I cannot wait to start the weekend.

  72. BottleBlonde*

    My intern emailed me to ask if he could have off all of next week because he had to put his dog down last night. I am incredibly sympathetic to how terrible it is to lose a pet. However, I am not sure how to respond to the request. I already approved him taking today off for his dog (the dog was very sick and was scheduled to go to the vet today, with the understanding that she might be put down, but she had an episode yesterday that unfortunately made things happen faster). The internship program is for class credit and is run in conjunction with the local university, which has pretty strict requirements on what constitutes passing vs. failing. It’s only a five-week internship, so the understanding is that the intern will be present every scheduled day except in case of emergency.

    I of course did not hesitate to approve him taking today off, but I’m unsure how to handle him requesting another whole week off. I truly do not want to be insensitive, but it is a pretty sizable chunk of the short internship. I am leaning towards telling him to take it easy the next several days and check in with me on Wednesday to see how he’s feeling….I also know that part of the role of intern supervisor is imparting professional norms, so should I mention that asking for this much time off with no notice, for this reason, might not be received well in many places? (Unless I’m off base with this? I have known people to take 1 – 3 work days off for the death of a pet, but not 6).

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I’d express sympathy and suggest he see how he feels on Monday. Mention the short length of this internship coupled with the class credit aspect and lightly touch on professional norms.

      Yes, losing a pet is difficult, but you have to return to a sense of normalcy. Personally being at home where I spent the majority of my time with said pet was actually worse than trying to get out and do other things to distract myself.

      1. Old Biddy*

        I agree. My boss gave me the the day off each time I had to have my cat euthanized, and it helped, but I don’t think anything beyond that would’ve been helpful – I was a lot sadder when I was at home seeing reminders of my cats that I was when I was at work.

    2. I Love Thrawn*

      I’m sympathetic too but.. that’s a lot of time off. I speak as someone who is majorly dedicated to my own two cats. From my understanding, extra time off after a death is in large part to take care of all the after-passing issues and decisions that need dealing with, but that wouldn’t be the case here.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes — it’s not “this is the amount of time it will take you to grieve,” but rather time for logistics, funeral, etc.

        I’d say “I’m so sorry about this! We of course can give you today off but generally for a pet people will take a day or two. In such a short internship, we can’t really have you miss a full week. Ideally you’d return to work on Monday — do you think that will work on your end?”

        1. BottleBlonde*

          Thank you for the reply and for the script, Alison! I’m going to speak to him now and this is very helpful.

    3. Ally*

      Yeah, that’s just way too long to have off, especially as an intern. Don’t get me wrong, I’m incredibly sympathetic, but to not complete basically a quarter of the required time is just way too much. If you can be flexible with hours or give him a day or two off, that would be really nice. However, the intern does need to learn the harsh lesson that life keeps going on.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      What is your org policy on bereavement time for humans? If someone only gets 3 days for the death of a spouse/parent/child, then I’d point that out (gently) because it sounds like he doesn’t understand professional norms.

      2. Murphy*

        Definitely this. This sounds like a situation where the intern doesn’t know what’s normal and could really benefit from learning.

      3. BottleBlonde*

        That makes a lot of sense. We only offer three days of paid bereavement leave, so I could point to that. I guess my main insecurity is that I hate saying no to any halfway-reasonable intern request because the internship is unpaid; but gently pointing out the expectations of our workplace and requirements of earning credit is totally reasonable.

        1. SoCalHR*

          I don’t think that much time off for a pet passing is a “halfway reasonable intern request”. So even extending the same amount of time as a human death is being MORE than halfway reasonable in this situation.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          I guess my main insecurity is that I hate saying no to any halfway-reasonable intern request

          Which is great, but this isn’t even halfway reasonable. This is definitely excessive, and you’d be doing him a favor by letting him know it’s not normal.

        3. Detective Amy Santiago*

          And not even just the expectations of your workplace, but the standard in most workplaces. 3 days for immediate family and 1 day for extended family is a pretty typical bereavement policy in the US. That’s something he needs to understand for the future.

          1. Paquita*

            Yes. I got 3 days for both my dad (July 3) and my MIL (2015). I went to work on the Tuesday because youngest sister handled the immediate stuff. (He was at home on hospice and we were expecting this). July 4 was a holiday so I had the Thursday Friday Monday off.

    5. Arielle*

      I love dogs and would be absolutely destroyed if anything happened to mine, but would not dream of taking a full week off. If anything, I’d prefer to be at work rather than sitting around at home looking at my dog’s empty bowl and bed. *sob*

      1. BottleBlonde*

        Honestly I feel the same way. Mine is turning 12 next month and it’s something that’s been on my mind lately. I think I’d be too much of a wreck to work the first day or so after, but I can’t imagine having almost *two weeks* at home surrounded by reminders of her :(

    6. Temperance*

      Honestly, I would say no to this request. You can’t miss 20% of a five week internship for grief reasons. Giving him a day off is kind and the right thing to do, but an entire week?

      I am sympathetic to his situation, but that’s not a reasonable request, especially if you are supposed to be grading him.

    7. Rey*

      It sounds like your primary concern is the class credit. I would contact the university intern coordinator and ask how they would have you proceed. And let him know that this is what you are doing so that he’s aware.

      In terms of the number of days and telling him about norms, I have never had a student request time off for this. My instinct would be to let him know that in most work places, they will have a bereavement or funeral leave policy (that will not always cover the death of a pet) and that any bereavement days taken use up vacation time. And something about “we were able to be flexible because there weren’t any pressing deadlines, but this might not always be the case and this should be seen as the exception, not the norm.”

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        My instinct would be to let him know that in most work places, they will have a bereavement or funeral leave policy (that will not always cover the death of a pet) and that any bereavement days taken use up vacation time.

        Oh, is that true? I’ve never worked any place where bereavement days came out of vacation time. I didn’t realize my experience was the exception and not the norm.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I think Rey means any days beyond the standard allotted bereavement days that are provided.

        2. Rey*

          Wait! I’ve never had to use the bereavement policy. The handbook says, “Employees may receive up to three days off with pay, as needed and with approval, in conjunction with the funeral of…” Does this mean that bereavement leave is distinct from and not related to any accrued vacation days?

          3. All Hail Queen Sally*

            Several years ago at a previous job I got three bereavement days (separate from PTO) when each of my parents died within four months of each other. They were both out of state and I did use some PTO in conjunction with each trip, but it was so nice to have those extra six days.

    8. SoCalHR*

      I’ve jokingly/lovingly call this “Barkreavement Leave” :-)
      But I agree that is an excessive amount of time (as Amy mentioned, most people don’t even get that much time for their human family members). I’d probably give him Monday for an extended weekend and then ask him to be back on Tuesday.

    9. KR*

      I would give him the standard bereavement you would give someone for close family, gently touch on professional norms and the length of the internship, and let him know that you know he may be upset or not up to his normal level at work when he returns and that’s ok. Honestly I don’t want to tell him how to greave but when my GSD died suddenly this year I took 1 day to be with my remaining senior puppo and then went back to work. It was too depressing not hearing her nails tippy tapping on the floor.

      1. BottleBlonde*

        So sorry for your loss :( I like the idea of reassuring him that it’s ok if he is not quite himself the first couple of days, that seems like a very kind way to have this conversation.

    10. LibbyG*

      I’m in higher ed, and we need to verify hours on site to give academic credit for an internship, so it may be that if he misses next week, he’ll not be able to get credit for the internship.

    11. Thlayli*

      I think you should tell him to ask the course coordinator. If it’s for class credit then that’s the relevant person who should decide. Maybe they’d be willing to accept 80% attendance.

  73. Erika22*

    I had two interviews this week: one for a job that would be a lateral move and a six-month contract but for a super cool company that would be great to have on my resume, and one that would be a step up and a permanent position but the work, though a step up, is more meh (and the company would be good to be at also). I didn’t do too hot at the interview for company one (it started awkwardly and didn’t get much better) and though I did much better with the interview for company two, though they mentioned there were several internal applicants, so I don’t know what my chances will be. Overall I have a feeling I’ll need to go back to the drawing board next week, but that’s ok! At least I had some interview practice and know I’m a desirable candidate! And good vibes to everyone job hunting right now!

  74. Anon for location question*

    Social media and interviews – I know it’s very common to check this stuff for job candidates. I have an interview coming up and haven’t given this much of a thought since all of my social media profiles are private/friends only and I have a super common name, but it just occurred to me that my current FB profile pic could be a problem. We have our primary for governor coming up, and I have a profile frame that supports one of the candidates. It’s a fairly democratic field and the union always supports a democrat – although even then, I don’t know if it would be an issue that the union supports Whitmer and my frame is for El-Sayed. (National-level comparison would be having a frame supporting Bernie during the last presidential primary. I don’t think it’s that controversial of an opinion in a democratic field, but I’m sure there are those that would beg to differ.)

    Safer to remove it? Or is this a non-issue and I’m overthinking it?

    1. No name yet*

      Honestly? I’d remove it. There’s a not-that-high likelihood that it could make a difference, but I know if I didn’t get the job I’d wonder if it made just enough of a small difference. Also, it doesn’t sound like you’d want that to screen employers out for you – if you were far on one political edge and wouldn’t necessarily want to work for someone on the other far edge.

      1. Adaline B.*

        Yea I’m inclined to agree. I can see it bringing out a bit of unconscious bias, especially being as it’s your profile photo…

        Politics and religion I stay far far away from on social media.

    2. msms*

      I’ll be job searching soon and the only thing even a dedicated stalker will find will be hiking pictures (without me in them) and very neutral stuff. I’ve spent hours building the most boring social media profile ever.

  75. Nita*

    Just venting, I guess. I’m so burned out. Funny enough, work has nothing to do with it this time – it’s been unusually stress-free. Other life stuff just keeps hitting the fan though, and I feel like I’m apologizing non-stop to management and coworkers for late reports, coming in late, leaving early, just not coming in with barely any notice because a kid got sick, you name it. I dread coming to work and I dread going home, because that just feels like another work shift (this one with food on the floor and other grossness). I really wish my boss would put me out of my misery and fire me, because I’m so tired of being flaky and not up to even my own expectations for my work. I kind of wish my family would fire me too, but I don’t think it works that way… Unfortunately no one is firing me anytime soon, because both work and family are a little short-handed right now. Ugh.

    1. Amberleigh*

      Sympathies. I’m feeling very much like you and it seems like it will never end. It seems like all I do is work and go home.

      1. Nita*

        Thanks, and sympathies to you too! Oof. I’ve just found out that an admin overwrote the most current version of a report I need to send (right now), and the day care has a power outage so the kids have to go home (right now). It just keeps getting better. Whyyyyy?

        1. Jessi*

          Nita it sounds like you are maxed out! Any chance you are in the Bay Area – I would be happy to help x

          If not can you throw some money at this for a couple of weeks? hire a sitter to take the kids out so you can nap? Hire a mothers helper or local teen to do some of the chores around the house while you spend time with the kids?

  76. Engineer going Part-Time*

    I’m an EE with ~10 years experience in the utility industry. If my goal was to move to part-time work within 5 years, even if that meant going back to school and/or going to another field, any recommendations on how to do that or what I could look into? I’ve thought about paralegal or some kind of accounting before. Mom always said I’d make a good lawyer… I’m fine with not doing engineering but do want decent-paying part-time work.

    1. Engineer-adjacent*

      I work at an engineering firm and I have a LOT of coworkers who work reduced schedules (24 or 32 hours/week). I think for the most part they made the switch to part-time after they had been at the company several years (and after they had kids). Maybe if you moved to a company who’s supportive of that type of thing, you could cut back your hours in a few years?Just wanted to chime in and say that firms like that do exist!

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I work for an engineering consulting firm whose clients are utilities. We don’t have formal part-time positions (you won’t see it as a posted requisition), but like “engineer-adjacent” said, we do have people working part time. I work with an ME who quit & rehired a couple times for family reasons, and then joined part-time permanently (kids are in HS now). She’s worked here off and on since the late 90s. Another woman was a project controls manager and came back from her 3rd baby as a part-time person in accounting. If I were in your shoes, I would try to get connected to some female engineers working in consulting firms (or any type of company) via SWE, Women in Energy, etc. and find out what local businesses have formally or informally allowed P/T arrangements, then work on getting a F/T job there to build trust ahead of cutting hrs, and then get into a department where P/T could be feasible. If you were lead electrical engineer on a big EPC project, it wouldn’t be, but I work on small consulting jobs, and our ME has no problem meeting the deadlines we need as a part-timer.

      1. Engineer going Part-Time*

        Cool, thanks for that feedback! I won’t want to go part-time due to having any children–at least, that’s not in the plan. Do you get the sense that part-time is any less of an option if it’s pursued for non-family reasons?

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Sorry, somehow I read into this that you were female and jumped to those examples. I know of a few others who have flexible and P/T arrangements for non-family reasons. We have brought it up in some of our women’s affinity group meetings. I have one colleague who is 50ish and would like to go part time soon, and if that option is not available, she would just retire. I think companies will grow more accommodating so we don’t lose the talent pool.

          1. Engineer going Part-Time*

            No worries–I am female. :) I was just asking because at my current company, they have done temporary part-time arrangements for new mothers, but even that seems to have been done…begrudgingly. I wouldn’t even think of requesting to go part-time here for non-offspring related reasons. Thanks for your insight!

    3. Anon for this*

      I’ve worked for several firms that do consulting to utilities, and actual engineers are in fairly high demand. I now do independent consulting in this space, and generally work half time or so. Maybe find out who works in utility-adjacent spaces with your current employer or in your area and start talking with them? Possible places to look include Independent Evaluators for RFOs/RFPs your company runs, regulatory agencies and contractors that work for them, attorneys who work in the utility space (because they hire people who are not attorneys — someone’s gotta go through all the boxes of stuff that result from info requests!), advocacy groups…

      Side note: I am an independent consultant, I got snapped up as a sub by the one great manager I ever had when he spun himself off from the firm where we’d worked. I have no guaranteed min/max hours, but we negotiate on how much work I commit to. I don’t get benefits, but my average annual hours (1/4 – 1/2 time) and hourly rate are both pretty awesome.

      1. Engineer going Part-Time*

        This is very helpful and is getting my wheels turning. :) Thank you!

    4. Ditzy Lawyer*

      I’d recommend you stay in your field and explore the options that have been presented by others.

      As a lawyer, I would not recommend going back to school to become a lawyer just so you can move into part time work. First of all, part time lawyer positions don’t really exist. I know of two people who shared one position and they found themselves working on their off days. The ongoing joke was “full time law, half time pay”. Same thing with paralegal and you’d definitely be taking a significant salary cut as well.

      Unless your mom is a lawyer, I wouldn’t take her comment about you being a good lawyer too seriously. A lot of people don’t actually know what being a lawyer entails and thinks it’s just about arguing (even then, there’s a skill to that). If your mom is a lawyer, then I’ll have to eat my words.

    5. LCL*

      Have you done any NERC compliance work? Maybe you could set yourself up as a consultant. Working with data bases of compliance info, like relay device number maintenance tracking, comes to mind. Any experience with WAMS? Everybody needs help with WAMS. For part part time, to pick up extra bucks, can you teach? Apprenticeships always need AC theory instructors.

      1. Engineer going Part-Time*

        Why, yes I have done some NERC compliance work. :) I might look into some of the consultants I know we’ve used for that kind of thing.

  77. Triplestep*

    I have a phone interview on Monday for a job that would be a mile from my home (20 minute walk vs. my current hour+ drive). It is not my dream job, but it is in my field, and would pay somewhere in the ballpark of what I am making now.

    My work is so niche that I have been considering either other hour+ commutes, or jobs that are not quite my field and at much lower levels just to work near my home. I fear that this is the last job near my home that is both in my field and at my level. My city is not that big – I pretty much know what employers would use my skill set, and why none of them would be hiring any time soon. I am so nervous about Monday – I have fast-forwarded in my mind to the tears that will come once I realize I am not moving on after the phone interview.

    For some perspective, this is at a university that has passed on me four times in thirty years (although that was a related but different department). None of the same people were involved in these decisions as people come and go; the interviews were spread out, the first one being in 1987 as I was graduating architecture school. Additionally, just two weeks ago I was a candidate for four different jobs. One passed one me, one offered me a job at a 30% pay cut then rescinded when I tried to negotiate, and the other two ghosted after in-person interviews. (I guess they could still come back to life, but I’ve moved on mentally). So I’m feeling pretty fragile about this whole thing.

    I am not sure why I’m writing; I guess I just need good thoughts and best wishes!

    1. LibraryBug*

      Good luck! I know it’s hard but try not to thought-spiral into thinking about the possible negative outcome. It could just as easily turn out well!

      1. Triplestep*

        Oh my gosh – thought-spiraling is exactly what I am doing!

        I was given a choice of times on Monday, and the one I picked ended up being scheduled over by my boss’ boss (a VP) who arranged a meeting with a bunch of other execs, boss and me – so I had to reschedule the call.

        I freaked out – what will this look like? Will this look terrible? (Never mind it was still three days away). Then when the admin rescheduled, all the other slots she’d offered originally the day before were still available after I had chosen my first time slot. What does THAT mean … do I have no competition?

        lol! Didn’t Alison just post an entry about this kind of over-thinking?

        1. LibraryBug*

          It’s hard if you tend to be a worrier or anxious to put it out of your mind! Try to remember that they’ve called you for interviews multiple times now because you’re a good candidate. Sure, they’ve picked someone else but you keep cropping up in the top selections!

          1. Triplestep*

            Thanks, I will try to think good thoughts :-)

            The one thing I do know about them is that they don’t leave you hanging. The last interview I had with them resulted in some pretty quick follow up saying I was not selected to continue. So at least there’s that.

      1. Triplestep*

        Gah! I am trying not to think about those kinds of things! (But yes, you’re right. I can even take the bus in 4 minutes in inclement weather and still save money in the long run. Literally there are no major intersections between my house and this campus building. Three traffic lights.)

  78. Choices are hard*

    Does anyone have advice for what to do when considering a different job? I currently have a job I’m content with and that is a great stepping stone to what I want to do, but another company is recruiting me for a different sector that could also be a good fit but it’s in another state.

    I think it could be a great way to grow and gain more experience in more areas than I currently have, but how do you make these hard choices?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Just know that whatever you do, you can look at both positively and negatively. At one point, I left my dream job for a less-than-dream job (for geographic reasons not having to do with my career). Eventually, I wanted my dream job back and couldn’t get it back. On the plus side, I gained a lot of valuable experience I wouldn’t have in my dream job… and much higher salaries I wouldn’t have gotten in my dream job. On the other hand, it was my dream job, and I really miss that working environment. You always gain something, and you always lose something. I know that doesn’t make the choice easier, but I guess you can take some comfort in the fact that there’s no such thing as the totally 100% positive choice.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Job and state move? That is a big jump.
      For me, I have to know what I would do if everything tanks, I hate the job, the state, and everything. I have to have an emergency bail out plan if all goes wrong.
      Next I have to have some sense that my chance of success is reasonable. Don’t put yourself where you won’t succeed.
      Another thing, I have to have super determination, I have to decide that I am going to make it work no matter what.

      Given, that I don’t know you and there is very little info here, you do not seem very excited. My guess is “Not this time and not this job. Keep looking.”

  79. Kathy*

    We’re winding down on summer intern time. Does anyone have any good stories?

    We currently have an intern that shows up whenever he feels like it and no attempts at talking to him about it have stuck. He also no call no shows a lot. His manager is my boss as well but the interns that have been in our department have been quick to pick up that my boss is very very busy and so long as they sneak in and look busy, he won’t know that they’re slacking off. We’re kind of short on work for them to do (I’m a niche type of engineer and most of my stuff is confidential, and it’s not a thing to get an intern clearance for some of the other stuff) so like I get it, but… when I was an intern, at that point I would be running around asking other people if they had stuff that I could help with. These guys… sit at their desks and do nothing, and then are resistant to accepting work that’s not assigned by my boss who is too busy to assign them work. And then even now it’s like, even if they asked us for something we’d be reluctant to give it to them because they haven’t been completing the work that we have been giving them. At this point, we’ve basically just marked them ineligible for re-hire.

    1. BuffaLove*

      Ooh, I think I was the bad intern. My first internship was at an engineering consulting firm, and they were big on having us ~find our niche~ and weasel our way into projects on our own. I remember asking my supervisor for something to do on my second or third day and having him tell me (in a not very kind way!) to just ask around. That extra layer of having to navigate on my own, combined with having absolutely zero office experience, left me completely overwhelmed, and I spent most of the summer staring at random documents from the intranet in a blind panic. I managed to do some work, but I needed so much hand holding that it really wasn’t helpful for them to have me there in any way.

      You better believe I showed up every day and on time, though, and I really did try my best with whatever work I managed to get.

      1. Kathy*

        Haha, oh no! I remember during my engineering internship, my actual boss was close to retirement so he also advised me to just ask around. But he at least did introductions to some of the engineers and I got saddled with lab testing, CAD work, and then later, some part design for small things.

        I’m sorry yours sucked though! And YES, the showing up on time and trying your best, that would’ve gotten these interns far! We actually did have an intern kind of like you last year but after a few weeks of hand holding I’m told that he picked things up so well that after he left, he managed to get a really good fulltime offer somewhere else.

      1. Kathy*

        Yes haha! We have kind of gotten the vibe that he’s a… “why do I have to do this stuff, well of course I’m working on my senior project instead of what I’ve been asked to do, no one has given me anything actually interesting to do” type of oblivious.

        I should say though, we have one really great intern that we’ve extended an offer to stay on part time while he finishes school with the promise of a fulltime offer when he graduates. He’s so good that if he wanted to go somewhere else I would’ve given him a stellar reference and I’m not even in his department.

    3. AnonToday*

      Ours gumptioned into the role AND got paid (Big Boss is not good at saying no). She just picked up the phone and somehow got the gig. Probably due to the fact that our other intern decided at the last minute to take the summer off. This internship is a career switch while she works on a master’s in the sort of field we typically hire from.

      Well, I found out earlier this week that Summer Intern has QUIT HER DAY JOB because she thinks we are going to just up and hire her…um….we have no budget for it, no role for her, and she lacks the required master’s degree any way.

      Watch Big Boss be unable to say no, and she stays on FT.

    4. Anonymosity*

      This isn’t my story and I think I’ve told it before, but something reminded me of it today. One of my online friends had an intern at her office who took a nap on the floor of the file room.

      Also, he was given the task of scanning a whole bunch of documents. The day he left, they discovered he had included a separate page with a picture of a turtle at the end of each scan.

    5. Chaordic One*

      I always felt sorry for our interns because whenever there wasn’t regular work for them management would have then do community service and send them off to different places in the local area. One year they had to fill and stack sand bags when there was a flood. Other times they had to pick up trash alongside the highway in a city park.

  80. Interviewee*

    I have an interview today in a few hours. I was planning on wearing a pantsuit, however it is 90 degrees where I am and I am wondering if it would be acceptable to wear a dress. I’ve worn this dress before on an interview and gotten a second interview so I don’t think it is wildly out of line, however I would rather look as professional as I can be (but would I look professional if I am sweating?) This is a first interview and it is with a municipality, no phone interview took place prior to today just e-mail that they wanted me to come in and the interview is expected to take 30m.

    1. Colette*

      Assuming it’s a work appropriate dress (i.e. not too low cut or too short, proper shoulders instead of spaghetti straps, etc.), you should be OK, but I’d be more comfortable wearing a blazer over it.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Yes, wear a dress. Take a blazer and put it on just before you enter the building.

    3. Interviewee*

      I don’t think I can link but if you google: lafayette 148 dress dixon new york it looks similar to that just blue. It’s lafayette 148 but I got it at TJMaxx.

    4. Erika22*

      I just wore a sleeveless knee-length Tahari dress to an interview and I’m very sure it was ok – it’s super unusually hot here and yesterday was the hottest day on record in years, plus the dress was very conservative and professional aside from the lack of sleeves. I even brought a blazer to throw over it when inside but the AC was nonexistent, so I just worked the sleeveless dress.

      I google the dress and think it’s totally appropriate even without a blazer, so my vote is yes go for it!

  81. Anon so I can whine a bit*

    Is money really enough of a reason to look for a new employer? I’m struggling with this question a lot right now because I am in something close to a dream job – except for the salary.

    The pros are legion. My employer is a stable Fortune 50 company with good growth, highly competitive products, profit sharing, good benefits including an educational benefit without peer, and a certain degree of prestige due to its longevity and name recognition. My role is very solidly in line with what I’d want to do if I could write my own job description, because in a way I did. It uses a whole slew of skills/knowledge, including strengths which aren’t often used in a corporate setting (research in a function which is not STEM-oriented). My teammates are talented and awesome, as are our manager and division director.

    The cons, though… the company is process-driven and risk-avoidant to the point that getting anything done can take a mind-boggling amount of time because of the approvals and forms and meetings and appeals and the general slowness of a huge bureaucracy. For a large part of the organization, you want that high degree of risk management and caution because of the consequences of error, but that should not extend to absolutely every corporate function and absolutely everything. Okay, I can cope with this nonsense because there are ways around it.

    What I cannot find a way around is the pay structure. For white-collar non-management workers we have five salary bands. Your job is assigned to one of those bands based on responsibilities/expectations. However, it’s difficult or impossible to change a given position’s assigned band (our functional VP doesn’t allow it). If you are performing at a much higher level than what your position expects, that’s nice, but the level goes with the headcount slot. We have a lot of people performing at one or two levels above their official level, but there’s no business case for a higher-level position on their team. Yeah, we have a retention problem. The only practical way to go up a level is to move to another department, but unfortunately what I do is unique to this department; changing roles is possible but that would probably only be possible as a lateral move, meaning I wouldn’t change levels anyway.

    Each of those salary bands has a pretty broad range but it’s almost unheard of to get a substantial raise which moves your original compa-ratio. I was hired, as is typical, at 85% of the market rate determined by HR for the salary band. Since then I’ve gotten annual performance raises but they’ve basically COL; after 5 years of being a solid performer, I’m now at 86% of the current market rate. Did I mention we have a retention problem?

    My manager, who is new to the company, is both aware of and appalled by the way our salaries are handled. She is trying to either move me to the next salary band or get a substantial raise approved, because the work I’m expected to do is actually two levels higher than I’m paid to do. I have little optimism that this is going to happen.

    The problem with looking elsewhere is that it would be a big challenge to find a similar role elsewhere (because it likely doesn’t exist anywhere else). Also, I’m using our educational benefit to get a second graduate degree; there’s a 2-year clawback so if I left now I’d have to pay for the rest of the degree on my own *and* reimburse the company what they’ve spent on my degree so far. (the amount I’d have to pay back is equivalent to the price of a fully loaded compact SUV) Even if I would get a higher salary by leaving, it would be balanced out by this immediate heavy financial hit.

    So… I’m at a loss. Stay, go, stop whining about my salary, start hitting up my network, be grateful for all the positives, stop putting up with all the negatives… I don’t really know which direction to go. Do all of the above simultaneously, perhaps?

    1. LDN Layabout*

      Does it work out staying for the clawback? Or would moving up to market rate cover it in the same amount of time?

      As for is it worth it…how much is the pay niggling at you? Because if it’s something that’s wearing you down, then it can’t be the perfect job, can it?

    2. Thlayli*

      I didnt read the entire post and I didn’t have to – yes of course money is a good reason to move jobs. It’s one of the main reasons that people move jobs!

    3. sheep jump death match*

      Well, is the clawback more or less than 14% of market for two years? Because that’s the math.

      I don’t need to know the numbers involved to know that the clawback can’t be 14% of market for the rest of your career, which is what you are giving up now.

      How do you know that your next job won’t have a tuition benefit?

    4. Guitar Lady*

      Do you make enough money to live comfortably now? Just because you CAN make more doesn’t mean you NEED to if other things about your job are great. If you are living the lifestyle you want to live on this income and you love your job, why move? If you could get a new job and earn say, 10 thousand more, what would you do with the money? Are these things worth potentially liking your new job less? Also, why did you get the 2nd grad degree? Was it to make more money, have more/different skills, or just because you wanted to and had the opportunity? But if you feel squeezed and stressed about money, or if you are doing ok but fear you can never retire on this or afford your dream vacation or whatever, then yeah, think about moving after the clawback period. Also, be sure you are taking your health benefits and profit sharing into account when you figure salary – it does you no good to get a raise and have it eaten up by health care costs or realize you lost the valuable stock options.

    5. Jane*

      I pretty much have this same exact problem.

      I have the extra wrinkle of being here so long at my level and actually growing my skills in a normal way that I really do more than the higher level salary band coworkers I have.

      So, I am at salary grade 3 , and they are at 4, which is a big bump in pay, but they are slackers who never take on anything extra at all, and I am a bit of a go-getter who likes to learn new stuff. At this point, I complete more work than they do, and also take on more advanced tasks than they do. And yet, the structure is SO strict that I have been told I can’t be paid a level 4 salary until one of them leaves. Even though I’ve been here EIGHT YEARS and they were moved to a level 4 salary after four years and five years, respectively.

      I also get such small raises that I am still in the lower end of my salary band. After eight years.

      So yeah, I’m looking to leave. Doesn’t help that I am the only woman. Grr. At this point, it isn’t only the money, but the principle. I’m angry.

    6. Observer*

      Money is a good enough reason, assuming you get a reasonably good job.

      Figure out what you would need to make it worthwhile, allowing for the education money. Then start looking around. Looking doesn’t obligate you.

      And while you look, focus on the positives of your job and doing your best work. It will make your life easier and make you a better candidate.

  82. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So I am still losing weight slowly. But what does one do about office snacks? People here mostly inform each other that there are snacks in person, rather than over email, so I find it harder to refuse and sometimes feel the need to explain why. Once or twice a week I do eat a work snack, but mostly not. Like today, someone brought brownie bites and asked if I knew they were there- I said, “yes, but I checked the label, and I’m saving room because I am going to a dinner party tonight. I’m sure they’ll get eaten!” I try to be diplomatic but it felt awkward because the person offering is quite overweight.

    On the other hand, I did have just enough money after all to buy a pair of pants that fit for work! They are standard tan so I can wear them four days a week and my jeans today. Also got a cheap haircut. I just feel so much more dignified with okay clothes and neat hair!

    1. Quill*

      Congrats! I have also trimmed my hair. (Mine’s curly, so I can get away with DIY haircuts.)

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      When refusing food, I usually just say a cheery “I’m good, thanks!” If people push (they usually don’t) I say something like “I’m not hungry, thanks!” or “I don’t want any, thanks!” Still in a cheery tone. Providing explanations just gives people something to disagree with.

      Congrats on the pants! I’ve got two pairs of work pants (one black, one navy) that I rotate.

    3. BottleBlonde*

      Congratulations! I am in a similar situation – losing weight, in a snacky office. And most of my coworkers are quite overweight so it makes conversations about weight loss kind of awkward. When someone lets me know about food they’ve brought in, I usually just say, “Thanks! I’ll grab one after lunch” or something like that. And then I don’t. Maybe it’s disingenuous, but I think it saves the awkwardness and isn’t that big of a deal.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      If they’re just saying “I left brownies in the breakroom” you can say “Great, thanks!” No need to inform anyone that you’re not going to eat them.

      1. AnnaS*

        That would be my tactic as well. Even if they offer you the thing in person. No, thank you! with a smile to show that you do appreciate the offer.

        1. you don't know me*

          “No thank you” said with a sincerity and a smile is my go to. It comes out of my mouth so automatically now that sometimes I’ve already said when I actually did want what was offered!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        My vote is for the simple, “great, thanks”. No one ever checks to see if you ate any. Honest, you are probably overthinking this. You can say, “great, thanks” for years and years before anyone will ever catch on and ask you about it.

    5. BuffaLove*

      I usually just say something like, “Ooh, thanks, I’ll have to go check it out later!” regardless of whether or not I plan on eating any. Anyone who pushes beyond that is just rude.

    6. Master Bean Counter*

      “Thanks! I just had an apple. But I’ll keep that in mind if I get hungry later.”
      Just substitute apple with what ever healthy option you want.

    7. Mockingjay*

      Just say, “thanks! Maybe later” or “thanks, not today.”

      Acknowledge the offering and move on. The simpler the interaction, the less you will feel obliged to explain or justify your refusal.

    9. Lumen*

      For a drive-by “Donuts in the break room!” you can just say “Cool!” or give a thumbs up.

      For the more pressure-y “You should…” conversations, take a second, adopt a musing/thoughtful expression, then “Nah. Not feelin’ like it right now. Maybe later.”

      No “I don’t eat ____” necessary. No “I’m on a diet” necessary. No explanation, period, necessary. You definitely don’t need to explain that you checked labels or give a ‘good excuse’ for why you ate a snack two days ago but don’t want to today.

      And honestly if anyone gets weird about it, like they’re questioning you and pressing you to eat something you don’t want to eat, you can go ahead and make them feel weird for being weird: a light “Why are you so interested in what I’m eating?” can go a long way.

    10. Notthemomma*

      I bring a baggie with raw broccoli, radishes, and rough cut red cabbage or carrots to work with me. Gives me a better alternative and it’s easier to reroute my snacking urges. Easier to point to that and say thanks, I’m covered!

    11. Thlayli*

      You are really overthinking this. It’s very unlikely that your coworkers are as invested in what you eat as you seem to think they are. A simply “no thanks” or “yes I saw that” is fine.

      If your coworkers are genuinelu getting offended because you’re not eating brownies (?!) then you should probably start looking for another job because that is beyond weird and psycho obsessive stalker territory.

    12. LilySparrow*

      All you have to say is,”Thanks, I’ll pass.” They don’t need to hear your mental calorie calculation, no matter what their size.

      Everybody gets to make their own decisions about what to eat and when, for their own reasons. That includes you *and* your co-worker.

      If people act pushy when you say a simple no, then you can point out how that is kinda wierd and ask them to stop. But you don’t need to over-explain your reasons, because that is a slippery slope to diet-bragging and diet-proselytizing, which are rude.

      I’m not saying you do either of those things, but it’s better to keep the mental math mental, to avoid the perception.

    13. AnonInfinity*

      Just say “great, thanks” (and nothing else), “oh, those snacks look real good – maybe later” (and nothing else), or even just a “no, thanks” or a “no, thanks; not today” (and nothing else). If someone brings the plate of snacks around and ask if you want one right that second, you could say, “oh, not right now; but those look great!” Generally, keep it positive but vague enough that you’re not lying and you’re not judging anyone. You really don’t need to explain. (I had to hone this when I started having gluten problems that ended up being Celiac. I don’t explain to everyone why I don’t eat their snacks; I say, “oh, those look great – hey, do you know about Work Topic X?”)

      No one is going to notice that you didn’t have a snack (if someone is watching you enough to notice that you didn’t have a snack, and comments on it, that’s a completely different problem.)

    14. Garland not Andrews*

      Yay on the trousers that fit! Makes you feel so much better.
      As for the snacks, I find that “distracted and busy” works really well. Just a “Thanks for letting me know, and diving right back into your spreadsheet (or whatever)” acknowledges the information, but shows that right this minute you are really into what you are doing.
      If the co-worker actually has snack in hand a simple “No Thanks” and right back to work gives the same impression. Kind of “I’m really busy and have to get this done” vibe.

    15. Cat Herder*

      “Oh, that looks yummy! (for homemade snacks) But I just can’t. Thanks any way!”
      Not homemade: “Thanks, but I just can’t.”
      Or just, No thank you.

      You are not obligated to eat anything that anyone brings in to share.

    16. Hannah*

      No one really cares if you eat a snack. At least, not reasonable people. I’m sure there are some weirdos out there who will take it personally, but most will not.

      I am a big snack eater and love having snacks offered to me. But even I occasionally feel meh about a snack or it is something I don’t like or I have already eaten too much that day. And I never get push-back when I said “oh, thanks but I don’t need a snack right now.” It is forgotten five seconds later.

  83. Biscuits*

    TL;DR: Is it worth calling out a coworker for constantly pointing out your small, “childlike” size, when you aren’t necessarily offended, but concerned about having your work undermined? Especially when you’re leaving soon and may or may not return as needed?

    I have a sort of iffy situation at work. I’m in retail, for about another month – I just signed on as seasonal to make a little extra cash. I’m young, short, and pretty skinny. One (sometimes 2) of my coworkers reference this, a lot. One is an older lady who was wonderful to train with, but she absolutely speaks her mind. I’ll catch a lot of comments about being small chested and shopping for bras in the kids section (I don’t), being the only person to buy an XS, or being the size of a 6th grader. I can’t really tell if it actually bothers me or not, though, so I can’t decide if I want to speak up. On the one hand, maintaining my figure has been an important part of my identity (whether or not others think it should be, it is), and I typically take being called “tiny” typically goes over as a compliment for me, but these are starting to feel…demeaning? I know it’s not intentional, but I don’t want to be known as the 6th grader that works in the teapot coaster department, either. I otherwise do good work, and my manager has asked me to stay on past my final date or at least come back when I’m available.

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      Making a comment like this once would be kind of weird, but making comments repeatedly (esp. your bra size. really?) is rude and disrespectful.

      I’d push back. Even if you are leaving soon, it’s good practice for the future. I find that the more I practice setting boundaries and sticking up for myself, the better at it I get. I don’t know if you need help with that or not, but I definitely do!

    2. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      This happens to me, and bothers me. It builds up over time and really eats away. I’d go with “Hey, I would appreciate if you don’t make comments about my size or stature anymore.”

      1. Garland not Andrews*

        Then, when it happens again, you have leave to be a bit snarky. You have addressed the issue as a reasonable rational adult, now you can be a bit sarcastic. Something like “Really, I hadn’t noticed!” with a deadpan face! Or the always popular, “Indeed!” spoken as flatly as possible.
        If polite does not get their attention, perhaps snarky and sarcastic will.

    3. BuffaLove*

      It’s definitely okay to let the comments slide if they don’t bother you. You’re allowed to pick and choose your battles. Just be aware that they might bother you as you get older and less willing to put up with stuff, and it’s totally okay to push back on comments like that at any time.

      Personally, I think I would at least say something about the bra/chest comments, because really, who comments on another woman’s chest size at work?! It doesn’t need to be a big thing, just a quick, “Hey, can we not talk about my bra size? It’s making me uncomfortable.”

      1. ..Kat..*

        “Are you commenting on the size of my breasts? That is so inappropriate.” Would you like me to have HR assist you with how to be verbally professional with coworkers?”

    4. Rey*

      Say something! There are a lot of different approaches that depend on your relationship with them and how open you think they are to it, but something along the lines of “I don’t want to talk about my body at work” or “It’s weird/rude that you talk about my body/my clothes/my bra size/my size”. Allison has also written some scripts for other scenarios that were along the lines of, “I’m so tired of talking about ___. Let’s talk about (change of subject) instead.”

    5. SoCalHR*

      A general response to the effect of “its generally not appropriate to talk about people’s bodies at work” may work, and then it doesn’t sound super personal. Or maybe even if you said it on behalf of someone else if a comment is made about them, so it doesn’t even have to be about YOU not wanting YOUR body talked about (but repeat as necessary).

      1. Biscuits*

        I really like this approach – I think I’d be a lot more likely to mention it about someone else, since it’s not really to the point where I’m extremely bothered about it being about me. Granted, I’m typically the only one, but I’ll keep an ear out for others.

    6. WellRed*

      Tiny is a compliment, but they should also knock it off, because 1. commenting on it constantly is weird and tiresome and 2. coworkers should NEVER discuss your boobs. What if they were huge? Then what would they say?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I was thinking this, too.

        “So if I were tall, fat and had enormous boobs, then what would you say?”

        But maybe softer is better.
        “I can’t change my body, it is what it is. I am happy and I am healthy which is more than many people get in life. Please stop commenting on my body.”

        On the next offense:
        “We talked about this before. I asked you to stop commenting on my body. Now I am asking you again to stop commenting on my body.” (2 key points, drop the “please” and remind her that you have asked this before.)

    7. OtterB*

      Since it’s been going on for a while, I think you could also say, “Hey, I’m getting tired of the remarks about my size.”

  84. LDN Layabout*

    It’s my final day! (Or was, I left early)

    And having thought back over my time at my now ex-job, there were great people and terrible ones, but what’s been the pettiest grudge you guys have held at work? Not something genuinely terrible, but just…ooh it grates~

    Mine was a co-worker (and a friend) who I offered to share some food vouchers with. This place was nearby, they do buy one get one free deal with the voucher.

    I suggested I pay one time, she pays the next, keep it simple, no one needs to count pennies or be bothered. She agreed, I paid the first time.

    I guess you can see where this is going, the second outing never materialised (I raised it once or twice and then dropped it). Knowing her outside of work and knowing she was like this (as long as her own money wasn’t involved), I let it slide. It didn’t help that I knew she was earning more than me.

    So, pettiest work grudges?

    1. Anon Water*

      I dislike almost all of the people another department hires, even though it does not affect me in anyway, other than I do the initial orientation paperwork. I think the department is poorly managed, the manger does not have the emotional intelligence or patience to be a a manager, plays the “favorites” game openly and it just irritates the heck out of me.

      Maybe that’s not a grudge, but I just avoid interacting with that department as much as possible. There are maybe 4 people out of that department of 15 I don’t mind speaking with. The rest are just brown-nosing suck-ups.

    2. loslothluin*

      I don’t know if I’ve had any petty work issues (that I can recall). However, my old coworker and I would always buy each other food if one of us was going out and the other didn’t. We never abused it and never kept up with who spent how much and such.

      1. LDN Layabout*

        There are people, although they’re non-work, who I have that kind of relationship with.

        For me it comes down to do I feel taken advantage of and this person is nice but also…she’d end up in situations where the balance would always tip her way? She’d always be very invested in things being ‘fair’, unless it was a situation where she benefited more and then suddenly it wasn’t that important.

    3. Ron McDon*

      I work in a school, and our Parent Teacher Association do an annual quiz night to raise funds. We usually field one or two staff teams to support it.

      There was a sign up list in the staffroom, and I added my name to the list. Later on, I noticed my name had been crossed out.

      I said ‘someone’s crossed my name off the quiz team list!’ and one of the teachers said ‘oh yes, that was me. It says ‘teachers team’ and you’re not a teacher, you’re *just an admin*’….

      Myself and the other admin started our own list/team, and poached all the best quizzers from his team by telling them what he said, they were outraged!

      It still burns every time I think about it though… and yes, I have held a grudge about it… even though our team won (yessss!).

  85. Cruciatus*

    Short version, is it OK to go over my supervisor’s head to the director to discuss possibly changing my job duties in order to get a “real” raise? The $600 I’ve gotten the last 2 years is not going to cut it for the rest of my life. My supervisor is sympathetic but as far as I can tell, feels her hands are tied to the rules set out by higher ups. The new director (just to our specific library, not our system) may not feel as tied down.

    Longer version: I’ve been in my current position for over a year now. I work in a university libraries structure at a smaller campus than the mothership, though there are many other campuses. We have a very flawed goals/pay increase system which is probably a post for another day (basically, only a few people are allowed to “exceed expectations” and if too many get this rating they are sent back to be lowered to “successful”. The pay increase this year was a difference of 2% between the two categories). I am considered “successful” and for the last 2 pay raise cycles I got…an extra $600 (less than a 2% increase). That’s it (and it’s suspicious that I am getting the exact same amount as last year? WTF? The math actually does not work out—they are screwing me out of 5.64 cents (this year) and I think it’s because otherwise my salary would not be divisible by 12 (how many times we get paid a year).

    Anyway, my point is that you can’t get a “real” raise unless you get your job description changed. I’m debating whether it’d be OK to go around my supervisor to the director to discuss this. From my perspective the director has really tried to keep from stepping on my supervisor’s toes in the managing realm (he is the director for all of us, but he mostly sticks with the librarians and my supervisor with the non-librarian staff, including student workers). My supervisor feels non-librarian staff are all underpaid and is sympathetic, however, she is a rules person and feels like her hands are tied and there’s nothing she can do. My coworker, who has worked here a long time, had a run in with our supervisor and former director a few years ago regarding this issue that left her in tears (basically, “it’s never gonna happen”). My supervisor and I were having a discussion about something else, but I mentioned all the things my coworker and I do that they don’t on other campuses (usually because they are too small to need to do these things) and she said TPTB would just classify these duties at the level we’re at now and wouldn’t think a higher salary band was warranted. The director is newer to our library (though not this university libraries’ structure), and seems to know TPTB pretty well, has already made a lot of changes (most of them visible, but some having to do with structure of librarian staff). He has a very open door policy and I feel would definitely at least hear me out—but I worry that my supervisor will be angry/frustrated/whatever that I went around her—except I already know how she feels (even though she is sympathetic) and I feel like I need to advocate for my best interests (and if I’m told no by him then at least I will know).

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      If the only reason your supervisor won’t bring it up is because she thinks nothing will happen, maybe she’d be open to you bringing it up yourself, which would mean you wouldn’t have to go over her head behind her back. (Which sounds like something that would give you an awful crick in your neck.) If you think that’s the case, maybe you could say “I understand you don’t think anything would happen, and I don’t want to ask you to do anything you’d feel uncomfortable with, so would it be a problem if *I* talked to director about our extra duties?” Of course, this runs the risk that she’d say no, and then you wouldn’t have the option of asking forgiveness instead of permission.

  86. What About Bob?*

    I’m in a situation at work that’s somewhat similar to Toxic Bob from earlier this week, except that my Bob (let’s call her Barb) still works at the company but in a different department. She’s been here 20+ years and has many friends/allies who LOVE her. I’m new to the company, and Barb moved departments before I was hired. I’m not sure the story there but the way it’s talked about makes me think that something happened and it was not a move by choice, because Barb REALLY doesn’t want to let go of one project that I took over to the point that she has tried to sabotage it. (That’s a different story entirely.)

    I’ve only met with her once, and she was extremely rude to me, making comments about my age/appearance/perceived experience level (I am a woman in my 30s but look younger, she is a woman in her 50s) that I ended up reporting to HR. It was an option for me to work with her for a bit, but I told my boss that I didn’t feel comfortable with that based on my meeting, and boss/department leadership were supportive of this choice. Barb was not happy about it (which I heard through the grapevine) and started spreading various rumors about me “kicking her off” projects she had been on for years. She clearly has a chip on her shoulder and is taking it out on me/my reputation at the company. I don’t know if HR did anything after I reported her behavior in our meeting, so I don’t know if it was retaliation or if she is just the type of person who acts like that. I’ve tried really hard to stay professional and act with integrity, work really hard to produce quality work, and hope that eventually everything blows over.

    But now I’m encountering an issue that I’m hoping y’all can help me with: in going through Barb’s files, I have started uncovering some REALLY unethical conduct. I’ve reported some of what I found to HR, but I keep uncovering more, and the latest bit was really shocking. I reported it to my boss who reported it to his superiors and it’s probably something that’s going to be addressed (and is definitely a fireable offense), and I’m worried the blowback is going to be on me because I’m literally the only person who could have discovered it. What steps can I take to protect myself?

    1. Nita*

      If she does get fired, hopefully you do not need to protect yourself from her, unless she goes full Bob and hovers on the sidelines for years. If people start asking you what you did, tell them that you’re sorry, but you can’t discuss what happened as it’s a confidential matter which was handled by HR. Maybe add that it had nothing to do with her behavior towards you, and was a performance-related issue.

      1. What About Bob?*

        Yeah it’s difficult because she has long-standing relationships with clients and also people in the company I need to collaborate with (the Barb-ettes, if you will). It’s been really difficult to build professional relationships with people because her narrative seems to be “SHE KICKED ME OFF MY PROJECTS!!!” and (to clients), “the company doesn’t care about you and that’s why things changed.”

    2. Troutwaxer*

      Off site documentation is your friend. Make sure you have printouts of the documents, your own copies of things like spreadsheets, etc., printout of emails, the whole damn thing. That way nobody can make the evidence “disappear” from the computer system. At this point your boss should be investigating, and you may need the evidence for an employment action.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Now you know why she did these things to you. She knew that you would eventually figure it out. You had all the power right along and did not even know it.

      Tell your boss and HR that you expect retaliation. Talk about what you have been through so far- a short description like what you have here is probably enough to get the conversation started.

      I don’t know if this is possible but if you can drag in other people to look at the files also and report their findings. If this is not possible tell your boss that you want her to look at couple example files together. The idea here is look around and find a way to take some one with you as you go down this path.

  87. Beezus*

    Am I the only one who finds $100 gift cards and such if a team hits a goal a sort of slap in the face? It just seems like such a pathetic and petty “incentive” and execs always act like it’s this big gift and I’m just like maybe pay me more or give actual decent spot bonuses to the key people who made it happen. I don’t feel like I’m saying this well, but it just rubs me SO infuriatingly.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Nope. You’re not the only one. I don’t mind gift cards if I do you a small work-related favor that isn’t technically in my job description. But the reward for a team meeting a goal should be a raise or at least a bonus.

    3. CAA*

      Also, they’re supposed to withhold taxes on the value of the gift card. I really, really hate getting something I didn’t choose and then having to pay taxes on it. The worst was in my first job when I got an award that was a Tiffany clock, which I liked as it was something nice I’d never buy for myself. Then they withheld 42% of its value from my next paycheck and there went $200 I couldn’t really afford and that clock was a whole lot less attractive!

      1. Beezus*

        RIGHT? Like thanks for actually giving me a shitty $135 bonus once grossed up in the form of a gift card I can only use one place.

        We also have this weird team thing where people can compete for giftcards and I’m just like “Y’all do know you’re gonna have to pay the grossed up taxes on that $200 ‘fun’ Amazon giftcard, right?”

      2. Mazzy*

        “Then they withheld 42% of its value from my next paycheck and there went $200 I couldn’t really afford and that clock was a whole lot less attractive!”

        Wow I didn’t even know this was legal I’m really surprised.

    4. Thlayli*

      What? That’s an awesome bonus! You’re pretty lucky if you consider 100 less than “a decent bonus”

      1. Thlayli*

        I just read the info above about being taxed on gift cards. I take back my comment – it is absolutely awful to give someone a gift card and then withhold actual cash from them.

        Where I live gift cards are used for bonuses specifically because they are tax free.

      3. nonegiven*

        My husband won a $50 gift card. Every time he wanted something, we checked that website first, it took 2 years to spend it. I don’t want a gift card unless I can pick where it comes from.

    5. 653-CXK*

      Each year when we had our year end financial settlement, we received $25 Target gift cards. (We also received money bonuses for hitting our targets, which was considerably higher than gift card, but we had to pay the 25% supplemental payroll tax for money bonuses)

      Then our (toxic) ex-director had a lovely idea – why have the employees get docked for payroll taxes on a $25 gift card when you can make the cards $24 and avoid payroll taxes altogether? Probably not legal, but not my circus or monkeys anymore.

      (PS: This was the same director who went on a tirade about Walmart during an all-staff meeting and berating the Chinese – who comprised of over half of her current staff.)

  88. KayEss*

    I’m starting to think I truly did irreparable damage to my future career by starting out in higher ed rather than private sector work. I spent six years at universities, but because higher ed is consistently a good ten years behind in technology and strategy, I can’t get a dang job now because my actual hands-on work with industry-standard programs and procedures reads as woefully under-experienced. And let’s be real–of course an employer is going to go for someone who can say, “yes, I did [industry-standard procedure] in my last position, here are examples X, Y, and Z” over me, who can only say, “I’m fully familiar with the theory of [industry-standard procedure] and would have loved to implement it in my last position, but it was deemed not a priority (by incompetent management who later dissolved the department) and I was not approved to devote any time or monetary resources to it so ultimately it didn’t get done.” Or someone who has a slew of fancy, hyper-modern projects in their portfolio, when I only have crud that I had to work around a visibly ten-year-old system to implement. I’m flexible, resourceful, and a fast learner, but I see more and more now that compared to a “real” professional, I have no meaningful skills. So count me among the millennials who had their lifelong careers ruined by tough decisions made in 2010, I guess. I thought I was lucky because I had a job then, but apparently it was the wrong job and there’s nothing I can do to fix it now.

    Anyway, I’ve been out of work for six months, and it’s incredibly demoralizing to keep hearing about how it’s a job seeker’s market out there and unemployment is OMG SO LOW, when the only calls I’m getting are from places with rock-bottom glassdoor reviews referring to consistent management ignorance, nepotism, and progressively slashed benefits. That’s what I had in higher ed, and I don’t want any more of it.

    1. Forkeater*

      I”m sorry to hear you’re having a hard time. What field are you in? FWIW, I’ve been in higher ed for about 20 years and wouldn’t trade the work life balance and benefits for anything, but then, I am at a pretty up to date institution – other colleges I’ve been at have not had the resources I currently do. You’re still pretty early in your career and you will get past this. Hang in there.

      1. KayEss*

        Broadly, I’m in marketing. “Marketing” is like a dirty word in nonprofits–particularly in higher ed, where everyone believes the inherent prestige and strength of their ivory tower product should make money magically roll in, and departments are all super siloed and used to doing what they please.

        I worked at both a prestigious, big-budget school you’ve probably heard of and a podunk, failing one you definitely haven’t, and honestly both of them treated their marketing professionals like shit. I don’t think I’ve been to a single meeting in my entire working life with someone beyond my direct teammates where our expertise didn’t get questioned or outright dismissed. I watched my managers and their managers be insulted to their faces, without consequence–not to mention the further internal politics intricacies like “we don’t send women to meetings with that faculty member anymore, after the incidents.” (But hey, he’s got tenure and we’re obviously just fascists out to harsh on his academic freedom.) We had to claw out credit for every single one of our hard-won successes, while every one-in-a-thousand random failure was a calamitous issue and a reason to question the value of our entire department. I was laid off (along with all of my coworkers) because the admissions office convinced the president that it wasn’t their own procedure failures that caused a critical enrollment downturn, but marketing’s fault for not listening to the pontificating of people who don’t know anything about modern advertising. We didn’t spend tens of thousands of dollars on radio ads and billboards along commuter highways, which are clearly major vectors in reaching the 16-18 crowd and not at all a meaningless comfort to the vanity of dinosaurs.

        I truly did enjoy promoting a product I could believe in, and there were aspects of the higher ed environment that weren’t completely terrible. The benefits at the big-budget school were admittedly great, if you could handle banging your head against a wall every day for a living. But now I’m finding that I spent years being constantly denigrated while also having my career crippled, and I’m really upset and angry.

        1. Undine*

          Can you spin some of that as experience in your cover letter? That very dilemma — that you not only learned a lot about marketing to a young audience, but also about how people internally can be resistant to modern methods, and what is needed to create a successful campaign without the latest tools or full buy-in from the higher ups. Or something else that you did successfully that you think you could only have learned in higher ed. Because, sure, you don’t have the fancy portfolio, but if you can showcase your skills in a way that underlines that you can work with the tools that you’re given, and you have good soft skills and awareness of the role of marketing inside a company, then you may find someone who can take a chance on you.

        2. JS#2*

          Reading your post makes me feel like I’m looking into the future.

          I left the private sector to work at a public university last year. I also do marketing. I love the mission of higher ed, but I feel like my skills are starting to already wither away. I’m in a notoriously bureaucratic and highly risk-averse department with no real infrastructure or support for marketing. I was hired to help with specific projects, but all that work has to be done by committee, which is slowly crushing me. When I offer one or two options for something to management, the whole department votes on it, regardless of my recommendation. I can’t get anyone to establish simple marketing goals. The very idea of setting marketing goals makes my supervisors’ heads explode.

          I interviewed with another unit on campus that has a robust marketing infrastructure and funding, but struggled with the interview because I couldn’t point to any projects in the past year that were creative or effective–and I felt generally beat down about the whole thing. It feels like all the energy that comes from being creative and making things collaboratively has been slowly drained away.

      2. KayEss*

        Wow, that was a huge downer, sorry. I’m just kind of scared right now because I’m the sole breadwinner for my partner and me and we only have enough savings for a few more months of me being unemployed, and it seems it’s coming out as a lot of bitterness. Thank you for your kind words.

  89. Jubilance*

    Has anyone else noticed an uptick in recruiters reaching out? Over the past few months I’ve had a big increase in the number of recruiters reaching out to me for various roles, both local and across the US. I know the labor market is tight but I was surprised to have so many folks reaching out.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      That doesn’t surprise me. Unemployment is low which means there are less people looking so recruiters have to work a lot harder.

      1. foolofgrace*

        I get requests from recruiters for jobs in states that aren’t even anywhere near where I live — and these are often for three-month contracts. Like anyone is going to move (on their own dime) to Oregon for three months, and not at an impressive salary, either. I get North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, etc. I guess their attitude is to keep throwing stuff at the wall and see if anything sticks.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      I got contacted by one in Arkansas yesterday. He actually did it in a tasteful way. I told him I was sorry but I knew nobody in AR, but I wished him luck.

    3. Can't Sit Still*

      I keep getting external recruiters asking me for “referrals.” I’ve also had the same staffing company reach out to me several times to see if I’m interested in a contract position at my company (for a lower level position, of course.)

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I had a rush in the past month. Most were presenting positions out of state and I can’t relocate. Several never responded to my reply, a few are keeping me on file, one is actively working with me but doesn’t have anything local or remote.

      Before that it was crickets for almost half a year, not counting the couple of recruiters with completely miss-the-mark opportunities.

    7. KX*

      I got my first one ever this week. I applied for a job that was already filled but they had something similar and they sent me the job description and asked me to call. We decided this one was not for me but that I should keep watching the company career site.

  90. Zona the Great*

    I’ve been waiting for the Friday thread because all my AAM reading has got me thinking back on past experiences with work. I wonder how you all think you would have handled the following scenario at age 16 and how you would deal with it now:

    My first job was as a bank teller. I mostly worked the drive-up lanes and dealt with folks in their cars. We had suckers we would offer parents with kids in the car. Sometimes they would ask us for a sucker and sometimes we would see the kid and offer the sucker. There were times when we would be admonished by moms bothered that we offered sweets in front of the child so we sort of walked on egg shells with offering. But one day a woman was in the furthest lane and I didn’t see that she had a child. She didn’t ask for a sucker either. Immediately after the transaction, she called my boss very angry about how her child was not offered a sucker. My boss made me write an apology to her for it. She was a run-of-the-mill customer BTW. Not that it should matter but we all know how much money talks in our society.

    What say you, AAM community?

    1. Ragazzoverde*

      I wouldn’t have written an apology to be honest, I doubt this woman would have switched banks because she wasn’t offered a sucker (and if she would than she’s just going to create more headaches in the future). You should never give ridiculous people like this their way. Having said that, I guess a lot of bosses probably would operate under a “customer is always right policy” and force you to apologise anyway

    2. KR*

      Your boss should have stood up for you. Also it’s not like you insulted her ancestors and shat on her car. You didn’t offer her a lollipop. Not a huge deal and not apology-letter worthy.

      1. WellRed*

        Ha! Yes, repeat. “You didn’t offer her a lollipop” to realize just how batsht crazy this is.

    3. Rey*

      This says more about the customer and your boss than it says about you. You didn’t do anything wrong. Your boss should have handled it on the phone, cause this definitely didn’t merit you writing an apology.

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      Yeah, no. The correct response from the boss should have been to tell the customer “We’re so sorry! Zona must not have seen that you had a little one in the car with you. It can be hard to tell with cars in the far lane. Remind us the next time you drive through and we’ll give you two. Have a great day! [cheesy telephone grin]”.

      Tangential story: when my younger son was little and I had a carseat/booster permanently in my backseat, the bank teller would put a sucker in the drop box every time (and I was at that bank almost daily on work business) regardless of kids in the car or not. I had quite the little bouquet of them in my car’s ashtray. :D

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      No one should be offering children candy. If she wanted a sucker for her child, she should have asked. No apology needed, and certainly not from you. Now, if the manager wanted to apologize for not making that clear to her, that’s a fair apology — for the MANAGER to make.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I’d like to say that employers push teens and early twenties around a lot.
      But this happens to older folks also.
      So my next saying is this is the type of crap that goes on in low paying jobs.
      Your boss should have explained that the customer is free to ask for a lollipop for her child any time. “We are happy to do that for you.”

      Now I would ask for a sign to be put up outside: “If we do not offer your child a lollipop it is because we cannot see there is a child in your car from where we are standing. Please feel free to ask for a lollipop. Likewise with biscuits for your dog.”

      Not what you asked, but if this lady thinks she is getting value from her bank because of lollipops she has a lot to learn about handling money. She is probably still going to that bank looking for lollipops.

  91. LibraryBug*

    Any suggestions for how to come up with projects that interns/students can do?

    I know some of my mental block is coming from not wanting to be at my job anymore, but I’ve got to keep it together in the meantime before I can move on. My boss has dictated what projects she wants done but now she wants me to come up with something and I feel lost: I don’t get any departmental information about the direction of the department or goals (Big divide between higher level employees and lower level employees, they do a lot of closed door meetings we aren’t invited to), I don’t have a ton of autonomy, and other projects I’ve been on have been on hiatus per management. I feel really stuck about how to come up with something, but I also don’t want to just give up on trying.

    Any other academic departments or student/intern supervisors out here who have some basic ideas of where to start?

    1. SoSo*

      Are there any low level process improvements you can take on? Our student worker is in charge of creating binders for research purposes (each binder varies and she can be creating or compiling anywhere from 2-15 at a time) and we had her create a system for tracking, maintaining, and overseeing the requests, supplies, and material orders. Now when she leaves, we have a system outlined to give to our next student worker. Or maybe create or update some training guides or job aides that could help your position or the department? Those might be more on the administrative side, but it’s worth a try.

      1. LibraryBug*

        Compiling procedures as it related to their job might be a good idea, kind of creating a handbook for the next set of interns/students.

        So much of implementing change requires a task force and a working group and a project proposal through people above me. It’s making me anxious trying to come up with something low level enough to not need that but also still mildly interesting!

    2. Canonical23*

      I go through spurts of having a lot of volunteers (or none) at my department in a public library. For me, I think the thing that really broke through my mental block is to make a list of all the projects that I was putting on the back burner since they weren’t time sensitive and then figure out what pieces of those projects were easily delegated to volunteers. For example, I had a huge weeding project that would involve shifting multiple shelving units around – I had a volunteer do all the shifting so that I just had to go through with a cart and weed when I had the time.

      1. Bibliovore*

        Weeding for condition is a great intern project. Wiping picture book cover with Clorox plus. Shelf reading. Filing catalogs. Preparing for programs- creating supply kits. Writing boxes. If you doing any summer reading, interns can check reading records.

  92. Savannnah*

    Currently at an academic conference I don’t normally attend trying to network for a new position after 4 months of frustrating job searching. Forgot how much networking, especially when I don’t have a job currently, is like dating + trying to make a new friend + interviewing all wrapped into one large terrible burrito of anxiety and 6th grade flashbacks.

  93. What About Bob?*

    I just typed out a comment and it didn’t post when I hit submit :(

    Long story short, I am dealing with a person like “Toxic Bob” from earlier this week. This person has been at the company for 20+ years but was moved (involuntarily, I gather) to a different department before I was hired. I came on board and took over a bunch of her projects, and she doesn’t like me. I’ve only met with her once and she was so inappropriate in our meeting I reported it to HR. She has spread rumors about me and tried to sabotage one of the projects (all of this I have reported to my boss, who is very supportive, and HR). I don’t know if it was retaliation for my initial HR complaint as I don’t know if they did anything after I made it.

    Anyway, as I delve deeper into these projects I keep discovering more and more unethical conduct. I have done my due diligence in reporting it but the latest piece was really shocking, and will likely have consequences even though she is not in our department. I’m worried about blowback to me since this person already doesn’t like me and has been spreading rumors, etc. What steps can I take to protect myself?

    1. Quill*

      Document everything. Get all her communications in writing, and save them on your own computer.

      I was the office scapegoat for nearly two years at a previous job – one not large enough to have HR, so documenting didn’t help me, but it should help you, since you have them.

    2. CAA*

      What kind of blowback are you trying to protect yourself from? There’s really not much you can do to prevent her from talking about you to other employees if you’ve already asked HR to intervene and they haven’t done so. I guess you could sue her for slander, or threaten to, but that’s pretty difficult and will likely to make the work environment even less pleasant.

      If there are regulatory or other legal issues for the company related to what you’ve discovered, keep a diary showing the dates that you found the problems, dates you reported them, to whom you spoke, copies of emails, etc.

  95. Quill*

    We’re being moved away from our labs and it’s excessively annoying. Carrying the notebook and whatever else up and down the stairs every time you want to pop out for a cup of coffee while your experiment runs?

  96. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    Is this legal? (Retail shenanigans.)

    No, really. One of my best friends has a 20-year career working in retail. Twice she’s been fired as a result of her very serious asthma.

    Incident 1 (years ago): She had a serious asthma attack from an unknown trigger while she was alone at work, and eventually needed to close the store so she could go to the emergency room. The store asked for a note from her doctor confirming that she was able to come back to work, but before her next shift she got a certified letter saying that she was being terminated because the company’s liability insurance wouldn’t allow her to work alone in the store (and working alone was required; the store was small enough that it was often staffed with just one person).

    Incident 2 (this week, different store obviously): She had a serious asthma attack as a result of a colleague spraying perfume against store policy (the store required employees to be scent-free to accommodate my friend), and left to go to the emergency room. When she went in for her next shift her manager told her that she was being “encouraged to resign” because the manager believed she had faked the asthma attack to get out of work. The manager also reminded my friend that the store had already made accommodations for my friend for an unrelated injury (they allowed her to wear sneakers while she was recovering from a ruptured Achilles tendon).

    Illegal in both cases? Just the more recent case? What should she do?

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      Well, she should definitely contact an employment lawyer admitted in her state.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      In my unqualified opinion the first one could fall under a Bonafide Occupational Qualifiaction.

      The second one is a clear case of a co-irker directly sabotaging your friend. And obviously to co-irker and the manager are friends. I’d got o some one higher than the manager, if there is somebody, and let them know what’s going on.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        She did make a report to corporate but hasn’t yet gotten a call back from them.

    3. Quill*

      Pretty sure the second is actually illegal, but unfortunately my advice here is “get out of retail, they mostly suck on this.”

      Either way, very awful on both accounts, and that they pulled up another “accomodation” because you don’t just get to pick one! And one that’s temporary as well! (Not to mention being able to wear comfortable shoes should be standard for retail workers, they’re on their feet quite a bit.)

    4. CAA*

      The first firing is probably legal.

      The second one would probably be a violation of the ADA if the business is large enough to be covered by it. She should decline to resign and if fired, file for unemployment and contact a lawyer.

    5. SoCalHR*

      I agree, the first was probably legit, this second one has all sorts of shady written all over it.

      1) bring the ER report to prove there was an actual attack
      2) complain formally about the policy violation of the perfume spraying (in fact she *may* even be able to file a work comp case for that)
      3) ADA does not have a ‘one accommodation’ per person rule.

    6. Thlayli*

      I’m not a lawyer but here’s my view:

      Definitely illegal in the second case. That’s why they “encouraged her to resign” because they couldn’t legally fire her. If she actually resigned she probably has no legal recourse though – she should have refused to resign.

      On the first case it’s a grey area. It’s reasonable for them not to want someone with a severe condition that could require hospitalisation like that to not work alone. So an accommodation for that would have been to always have a second person with her or to allow her not to work the alone shift. So i think it would depend on whether them doing that was a “reasonable accommodation” or not. If they were a small company or a small location of a big company then they might not have been able to afford a second person on shift with her, or they might not have had sufficient staff to cover all he alone shifts without her. So it would depend.

    7. Observer*

      First one, probably legal- It does sound like working alone was a real job requirement. The only question is would they have been required to offer her a different job.

      This one sounds very iffy to me. The other accommodation is totally not relevant. And the boss is basically punishing her for taking care of her asthma – it’s not like the don’t know she has it.

  97. Teapot librarian*

    Men, if your instinct before complimenting a woman is to preface it with “I hope you don’t get upset by what I’m about to tell you,” you should probably just keep your mouth shut. (The compliment in question was about my smile. Eww.)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I hope you don’t view this as a derail, because I’m 100% on board with what you said. This just reminded me that pretty much anything at work you have to preface with some kind of disclaimer is probably something you shouldn’t say.

      “I’m not a racist, but…”
      “I’m not a male chauvinist, but…”
      “I really shouldn’t be telling you this, but…”
      “No offense, but…”

      1. WellRed*

        Working retail I had a customer preface a statement with, “I don’t mean to be rude but…” So I knew she was about to be rude. OMG, she was racist! She thought the Somali woman should have her kids more tightly reigned in (I don’t recall them causing problems of any sort) because “this isn’t the Sahara where you can see them for miles.”

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      I got this one the other day! This old dude was like “I hope you aren’t offended by this, but you’re a very attractive woman.” He was at least three times my age, maybe four.

      Ew.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        “I have to paint my deck this weekend. Do you want to come help me?”

        WHAT?! EW EW EW.

      2. Windchime*

        I was told I was a “fine looking banana” by a homeless guy who was smoking pot outside the Seattle library yesterday. Ahhh, Seattle.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If you wouldn’t give the same compliment to a man, don’t say it to a woman.

    4. SoCalHR*

      the disclaimer makes it way more creepy for some reason! If the dude had just nonchalantly said you have a nice smile and continued on it may not have been creepy at all (although, emphasis on the MAY)

      1. Inspector Spacetime*

        Agree. I don’t want to receive any unsolicited comments on my appearance from strangers on the street, but the disclaimer means the person saying it is well aware that it may upset you/is offensive/whatever, which just adds another layer of slime.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I was just listening to a standup routine where the comedian* was saying how some male friends were frustrated with the backlash over catcalling and what’s acceptable to say to women they don’t know on the street.
      Male friend: “So then how’m I supposed to tell a hot woman that she’s hot?”
      Comedian: “Uh, don’t?”

      Another comedian* had a routine about how she responded to a strange guy telling her she was beautiful with “Thanks, I know” and riffed about how he got all offended that she agreed with him.

      * Was binge watching stand-up specials on Netflix, can’t recall who it was.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        I just want to share that I appreciate your footnote SO much. I was binge-listening to a podcast and then wanted to share something I’d learned from it, and had NO CLUE which episode it had been. So I feel you on this.

      2. Middle School Teacher*

        I actually did that with a guy on a dating site! Him: wow, you have gorgeous eyes!
        Me: aww, thanks, I think so too!
        Him: …. god you are a stuck-up b**ch.

        It’s a no-win.

        I heard another one on the radio today, along the lines of “don’t get me wrong, my cousin’s gay, I love him to death, but…” No. just stop. There is no good ending to that sentence.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I think that’s great! I wouldn’t say it’s a no-win, you found out pretty quick what kind of jerk that guy was. Too bad the reverse doesn’t work with negging:

          Him: Well normally I don’t go for your type, most guys wouldn’t, but maybe…
          Me: Yeah, I don’t seem to attract very many good guys.
          Him: No, wait, actually I think you’re really awesome!

          Of course then you’d still have to ditch him for being a PUA piece of trash, but it’s nice to think about.

  98. Ragazzoverde*

    Does anyone have any tips on how to manage email for a job where you have to look at emails all day long? (Like, my job is basically 90% email), I would estimate I get at least 100 emails a day, many of which are not technically important but I still feel like I should have some way of staying on top of them. I feel like any articles I have found give the advice to only check email twice a day etc. but that is impossible for me as my clients often need immediate email responses and I need to monitor them, I also rarely receive emails where a response can wait more than a couple of hours. Does anyone in a similar situation have any tips? I feel like I’m constantly battling inbox overload!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I used to work a job where I’d get literally 300-500 emails per day (it was a receptionist position), and I found the best way to stay on top of it was just to stay on top of it. If I had to check email only twice a day, I’d be flooded and never be able to catch up!

      I had keyboard shortcuts memorized for reply and send. I also had some good copy-and-paste copy for generic questions, so I wouldn’t have to re-type some long thing.

      My goal was to get everything out of my inbox right away. Stuff I couldn’t get out right away (e.g., I had to consult my boss first or someone else at work before replying), I would keep in there for later.

    2. JJ*

      I’m a big folder-er, if it doesn’t require action from me, or I already did the thing, folder. That way, my inbox is only active to-dos. It really helps me stay on top of things and not get stressed about sifting through it all. If you have recurring ones that aren’t critical, maybe set up a filter to put them directly in a folder that you check/respond to once in the morning? Then they’ll be out of your hair and the more urgent things will be in the inbox.

      I personally don’t think the “check twice a day” thing is very conducive to being agile or timely, but you DO have to sort out how to make sure you’re not playing catch-up all day.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        All of this plus judicious use of rules and color coding.

        If you get a lot of FYI type emails about specific subjects or automatic notifications about something, set up a rule to send those to a folder that you can check when you have time. If you have multiple areas of responsibility, color code your emails so that you can deal with all the teapot issues at once and then all the coffeepot issues and then all the cookie issues.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        I’m a big folder-er, if it doesn’t require action from me, or I already did the thing, folder. That way, my inbox is only active to-dos.

        This is exactly what I did when I was a receptionist. I didn’t have a ton of folders. I really had an Inbox and a “Done” folder. When I had looked at an email I didn’t need to respond to, I just dragged it to the “Done” folder. When I had replied to an email, I dragged it to the “Done.” folder. Something I needed to get back to later, I just left in my inbox.

        Now that my work uses G-Suite instead of Exchange, I just use stars instead. If it’s something I need to get back to (but can’t right now), I star it. Then, every day, I check my starred messages.

        1. SoSo*

          Yeah, I get anywhere from 50-75 emails a day and the “flag” option on Outlook is my lifesaver. If it needs addressed or followed up on, it gets flagged. Then I go to my to-do list and check them off.

    3. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      Oh boy, I feel your pain! A giant yes to using folders, categories and rules! I maxed out the categories (and could still use a few more) and have a zillion folders – my job touches everything in my organization unfortunately. I try to only have action items (plus actions items where I’m waiting on something) in my inbox. Doesn’t really happen, but it’s a goal.

      If I know I will get a million emails about a specific meeting, hire, grant, or project, I will create a folder and start adding rules to get emails routed directly there. Otherwise, I create a folder later and then just sort my inbox by subject line or sender to round them all up and get them filed. The only tricky thing I find with rules is that I sometimes get in the zone with my regular inbox and fail to notice 5 new emails in one of the folders.

      All that said, sometimes it gets busy or I am out for a while, and the resulting inbox overload must be dealt with. I typically take 2 passes through, one sorted by subject – create folders and/or file those first, and next pass by sender name so I can catch ones I missed or ones where the sender changed the subject line or whatever. If I’ve been on vacation for a week or more, I allocate an hour or so per day for this for a few days, as more than that makes my eyes cross and I later find bunches of emails in the wrong folders.

      I second having boilerplate emails saved for the commonly asked questions, huge timesaver.

    4. Thlayli*

      You need to get an email system going. Set up folders and file emails once a week. Only leave in your inbox emails that still need actions – everything else goes in a folder. Set the folders up whatever way works for you. One folder you definitely need is something like “useless” and in there goes all the crap you don’t need.

    5. Little Bean*

      So I wanted to create folders like others are suggesting here, but the problem I encountered was that I hadn’t been doing that from the start and there were already like 6,000 emails in my inbox. It would have taken forever to go through and categorize them. So I made a folder called “pre-2016” and put every email over 1 week old into it. Then I went through just the most recent week and started making folders, and put every email into a folder. Now I use the same system as JJ, so every email left in my inbox is something that I need to respond to.

  99. Red Reader*

    I’m in a required “professional communication and leadership” course for an undergraduate program at a legitimate school. (Not like, UoP or whatnot.) So far every class session has started with “mindfulness moments” and icebreakers about our personal relationships and how things in our lives make us feel. I am kind of appalled that at last week’s “One relationship in my personal life I would like to improve is…” query I was the only one in the class to answer that I preferred not to discuss my personal life in a professional leadership class. (At least the “instructor” didn’t push it.) Talk about a total waste of time and effort. :-P only two sessions left.

    1. Quill*

      I’d hate those. Especially since they tend to stray into people’s love lives (not like, anything graphic, but ‘I’d like to work on my communication with my boyfriend’ etc,) and I get very uncomfortable when it becomes obvious that I’m the only woman in the office who does not date. Then I either get to come out as aroace (seldom worth it) or joke about how busy I always am and how a man couldn’t keep up with me!

      1. Red Reader*

        Oh, it’s crazy personal. And she’s told about a dozen different stories about how her husband’s son (not her son, not her stepson – always “my husband’s son”) is an irresponsible parasite. Just gross.

        1. Quill*

          My inner snark is frothing at the mouth to tell her that she should buy some delousing treatments and apply them to her family situation, rather than bringing it up here.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      One relationship in my personal life I would like to improve is my relationship with my professional communication and leadership class. It’s not working for me, I’m not feeling it and it’s me not you. I would like trial separation.

      Seriously. I had a leadership class in school that was anything but leadership. Okay it was a “what not to do guide”.

  100. JJ*

    I’m in the process of switching from freelance Agency A to Agency B, because A has been basically stealing money from me and are totally the worst. (They take their employer taxes directly from my wages, which, if not illegal, is definitely shitty and the only time any agency has done this (usually I get my rate and the agency charges the client more to cover their stuff). They also take a percentage on top of that. Oh and charged me nearly $200 for a background check, which was also a surprise of course.).

    Anyway I’m SO antsy to write my Glassdoor review to warn other freelancers away, but it’ll still be at least a month before I can get out from under them and get my final invoices paid. GRAH

  101. Longtime Listener, First-time Caller*

    Resume Question: I’m going to be applying for a new job, and I have a question about job descriptions when the job are very similar.

    I was hired in 2017 to do a job that included tasks A, B, and C.
    I was promoted from that job earlier this year and now only do tasks B and C.

    How do I differentiate between the two jobs when they are so similar?

    1. KatieKate*

      Accomplishments, accomplishments, accomplishments. What did you do to get promoted? I assume dropping A was because you were so good at B and C, so go into more detail about that.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, I don’t know if it matters that much. For one year you did three things and then for another year you did two things? It’s only a year each time. That said, if you really want to differentiate, for A’s bullet point, you can just specify “In 2017, did whatever.”

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’d do something like this:

      Company XYZ
      Senior Manager (March 2018 – Present)
      Manager (March 2017 – February 2018)
      – Accomplishment related to task A
      – Accomplishment related to task B
      – Accomplishment related to task C

  102. Beancounter in Texas*

    One or two Fridays ago, I posted that I was not feeling up to my annual review and was kinda dreading it. I had it this week and IT WENT GREAT! My sup and boss rated me higher than I did myself! WOOT!

  103. heckofabecca*

    Just venting… State budget is being delayed YET AGAIN, which means that my husband STILL doesn’t know if he’ll have his teaching job come September! The Senate and House are floating different bills, one of which would be much less generous to low-income/ELL-heavy districts like the one DH works at. GAH. When will we move to statewide funding for public schools so I can stop stressing???

  104. Ellery*

    I have a coworker friend who is often the person who interviews potential new employees for our company if they’re going to be working in our office. Our company gets the resumes and conducts the initial phone calls before setting up the interviews, and then just tends to send her resumes copied into our company letterhead.

    Today, she was supposed to interview someone (who then cancelled), and the resume she was sent ended the employment history ten years ago. When she let the other person who was going to conduct the interview with her know, however, that person was relieved–leading her to find out that the other person’s company had sent them a version of the resume which included the information of the last ten years, starting with blaming a two-year gap in employment entirely on the then-president ruining the economy and another job that was described with fairly ableist undertones.

    Because of this, she was troubled that the version our company provided her to assess was so different, so she asked the person who sent it to her about that, but did not receive a concrete answer as to whether the other version was the same thing that our company had received. Another friend has assured her that companies doctor resumes all the time and so this is nothing to worry about and she shouldn’t push back on it, but my friend isn’t so sure. *Do* companies often doctor applicants’ resumes before providing them to the interviewer? And on this level?

    1. CAA*

      It would be very unusual for your company’s own HR people to be doctoring resumes before passing them along to the hiring manager.

      It would not be at all unusual for a recruiting or outsourcing firm to doctor resumes and put them on their own letterhead/template prior to sending them along to a client company.

      I’m not sure from your description which one of these is happening to you because you mention having two people from two different companies interview the candidate together. That type of interview is also not common.

      1. Ellery*

        Sorry, I realized afterwards that it might not have been very clear; it’s sort of a complicated situation, I guess.

        My friend and I work in the same office and happen to be employed by the same company (I’ll call them Teacups Inc), but the office itself (let’s call it Tea Solutions) is a sort of complicated contractor situation where everyone is coworkers in the same office, working on the same projects, etc, etc, but can be an employee of any of about fifteen different companies, none of which are actually based at Tea Solutions.

        Teacups Inc is a tiny company based several states away and doesn’t really have an official hiring manager, per se. (A couple of the home office employees are loosely like HR, but that’s about it.) My friend is the Teacups Inc employee who has been working at the Tea Solutions office the longest and is therefore the person who conducts any job interviews that Teacups Inc is doing for this specific office, but she is not an official hiring manager or anything of that kind. People apply to job openings at Teacups Inc the way you would anywhere else, and the home office several states away is the one who gets those applications (resumes and I assume cover letters), reviews them, and sets up interviews as they see fit.

        They then send my friend the resumes of the people who she will be interviewing, but they have always been transferred to the Teacups Inc letterhead by the time she gets them, so it’s unclear to her how much they may have been altered.

        Because there are many people in the Tea Solutions office who work for different companies, it’s not particularly unusual for them to want the person who will actually be working with/supervising this new hire to be sitting in on the interview, whether or not they technically work for the same company. So in this case, Teacups Inc was in charge of filling a position that will be supervised by someone who happens to work for Teapots LLC. Therefore, even though the other person is technically an employee of Teapots LLC, they’re the one who will be an actual coworker of this person and who knows what the dynamic of the position will be, what the duties are, etc, etc.

        So. It’s an outside applicant who applied to a job at Teacups Inc, who then sent this very different resume to the Teacups Inc employee who conducts the actual job interview. Meanwhile, the other person who was going to be sitting in on this interview as the potential new hire’s supervisor works for Teapots LLC and had received a very different version of this applicant’s resume.

        1. CAA*

          OK, I think I understand it now! It’s not that unusual for Teacups, Inc, which is basically acting as a staffing firm in this scenario, to put resumes on their own letterhead. They probably send those resumes to other people besides your friend for approval and they want to present a specific image as well as prevent people from going around them to contact the candidate directly. What is unusual is that the applicant sent an unedited resume to someone at Teapots LLC. Usually the Teacups people would have that under better control.

          If I were your friend, I’d start every interview by asking the applicant if she happened to bring another copy of her resume. Most people do. Even when I’m interviewing someone from a staffing firm, I always want that person’s direct contact info and their own version of their resume.

          1. Ellery*

            It’s not exactly a staffing firm in that sense. It’s more of a contractor situation, but the applicant would apply to Teacups Inc’s job opening as a full-time employee of Teacups Inc. It’s just that the position is located in this office, working with coworkers who are not necessarily paid by the same company. (For example, I’ve been an employee here for seven years, and my friend more than eight.) But other than being given a position they need to hire for, the entire hiring process (and subsequent employment) is done by Teacups Inc. (Sometimes the quasi-HR person will be in town and do the interviewing himself and will have the applicant’s original resume. My friend is acting in that role if he is not in town but being given an edited version.)

            (The versions on the company letterhead can’t possibly be to present a polished appearance to anyone else, as they are poorly copy-pasted in full from the original formatting and often nigh-unreadable because of it, as well as still containing all the contact info of the applicant.)

            The person from Teapots LLC was mostly sitting on the interview to be able to answer any questions about the job/give some feedback as needed, but has absolutely no control over Teacups Inc’s hiring decision. My friend, as an employee of Teacups Inc and the person conducting the interview for them, is the only person in the interview process who actually communicates with Teacups Inc directly and gives feedback as to whether we should hire that person.

            It’s not totally clear how the other person got the original copy, but typically the only person in this office who gets a copy at all is my friend conducting the in-person interview on behalf of our own company’s two quasi-HR people, because they’re too far away to do it themselves. (If there’s another person who might be sitting in on the interview to help ask/answer questions, then they might get sent the same copy as my friend, but that’s about it.)

            But either way, our own HR people for the company sent her as the interviewer working for the same company a copy of the resume that took out the applicant’s last ten years of service, and she’s wondering whether to push back on that or accept the advice that “all companies edit the resumes of job applicants so it’s no big deal.”

  105. Anthro Prof*

    I’m teaching a college level anthropology course this fall semester all about American workplace culture! I think it’s going to be really fun to discuss office rituals and norms through an anthropology lens. Which AAM gems are great examples (or fodder for discussion) for first year college students of the working world? How to fit in, what’s wildly off the mark, and especially how to find one’s own career path?

    1. Middle School Teacher*

      Interns petitioning for the new dress code. You have to include that. You just have to.

      1. Middle School Teacher*

        Oh! And the one with the person who got fired because they booked plane tickets to Italy instead of Florida (I think) for the bosses, who missed a big meeting as a result. How to bounce back from that. You could do a whole lecture series on mistakes and how to come back from them depending on the severity.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      100% agree with Middle School Teacher about the intern dress code. That is essential, also any of the posts about interns on here would be useful.

      I also think the guy who ghosted his ex and it came back to bite him on the arse is a key one about making sure you close off relationships professionally.

      There are loads of letters about toxic workplaces.

      Oh! And the letter that brought me to AAM – the manager who refused his best worker a day off to attend her graduation and so she quit and he wanted to write her an email explaining why it was unprofessional to “help” her in the future.

      That’s a good one that shows sometimes hills are made to die on.

    3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I think the many and detailed discussions about food in the office (lunch stealing, smelly dishes, cleaning up after yourself, handling going out for lunch, etc.) would provide quite a lot of fodder.

      1. Anthro Prof*

        Good idea — especially the ones about different cuisine types — many of the students are international students so I bet they will love to get into food origin discussions.

    4. WellRed*

      Second all these and also how about the recent letter about the intern who did’t want to do work related around a visiting VP because she wanted to punch him in the face for his politics.

    5. Brownie*

      What to do when it seems like there’s nothing to do is a big one. That gets into all kinds of company and boss cultures.
      How to assess a company’s culture – one month of observation and the subtle cues that often get missed (one that I’ve missed was why is no one taking sick days)
      How to tell when it’s okay to talk to coworkers – assessing if they’re available as well as the cues of when to leave them alone or end a conversation
      Bathroom politics – everyone poops, but not everyone flushes, a study in passive-aggressive signs and their effectiveness (so many AAM example letters)
      Spotting red flags – is it you or is it your boss, with an emphasis on what good management looks like versus bad (lots of AAM examples for this)
      What professional norms are consistent across all offices and jobs – the bare minimum of professionalism (this could be a great interactive discussion to figure out foundational cultural things like dress code and behavioral standards)
      The discussion here on AAM back on Feb. 1st of this year (titled “let’s talk about differences in office culture by country and region”) is utterly fascinating for looking at workplace culture across the US. Lots of differences, up to and including if is it acceptable to take the last donut/cookie/cake slice or is that considered rude.

    6. OtterB*

      Not an AAM gem, but for a person doing something similar several years ago, I recommended Claudia Shear’s book “Blown Sideways Through Life.” In that case it was a reminder to the students that not everyone holding a job is doing it as part of a carefully curated professional career path.

      1. Anthro Prof*

        Thanks for the suggestion! I think that will be a central lesson. In fact I think that’s why I got the job — I told the Dean that I’m trying to figure out my own next steps… I’m in my mid-30s, finished my PhD within the past year, and I hold 4 part time jobs right now. So he thought the students would find me relatable. :D

    7. Amelia*

      How about some of the letters where employees/their families don’t seem to understand necessary boundaries between family and work?

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/12/my-coworker-is-ccing-his-mother-on-work-correspondence.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/11/my-coworkers-kids-are-running-wild-in-our-office.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/09/my-coworker-wants-us-to-call-her-boyfriend-her-master.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/10/my-husband-emailed-my-boss-about-our-decision-for-me-to-resign.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2013/03/can-i-write-to-my-wifes-boss-and-ask-him-to-promote-her.html

  106. AnonymousLeigh*

    As my second job out of school, I was recruited to join a fairly small marketing startup with the usual “let’s hang out and be one big happy family” culture. A big part of that culture is drinking. The office would have plenty of beer/wine around and the partners would regularly take us out for happy hours. After one of these happy hours (having drank more than I should have, I admit), I fell flat on my face on the way home, fracturing my nose and cheekbone. I’m okay now and have healed up well, but I noticed a shift in that drinking culture when I came back. That freely-available wine and beer were gone and the happy hours severely curtailed to cash bar only. Anything drinks related for client entertainment now requires management approval.

    I’ve noticed my co-workers have been cooler toward me since I’ve been back, evidently resentful of the fact that my accident had changed the “party” atmosphere that was there before. I’m hoping I can get back in their good graces and put this behind me, but I don’t know if I can shake this reputation of being the person who ruined it for everyone else.

    Should I stay and make a go of it only being here about eight months or make a clean start somewhere else?

    1. KR*

      You didn’t change the policy. I would act like you did nothing wrong because you did nothing wrong. They will get over it.

    2. Lumen*

      This wasn’t really just about you, and it wasn’t really your fault. This was about the company realizing that a free-flowing booze culture can and will easily lead to dangerous situations, whether that be physical injury, car wrecks, and/or harassment. And yes, if they’re providing tons of alcohol on the company dime, there’s definitely some liability there.

      A lot of young companies think it’s Very Cool to have that party atmosphere, and then they end up learning the hard way why more established companies DON’T.

      My previous ToxicJob had weekly happy hours for a while, with no real limit. There were a few people who would close down the bar, paying for round after round on the company card. And after the time that one coworker vomited all over a new hire’s wife and two people had to go to HR because they’d gotten gropey with each other (consensual, but inappropriate and public) and the manager who was paying for it all turned in a $900 expense report for that one night… well, the weekly happy hours ended, and from then on when we did go out, the company would pay for your first drink and some appetizers, then the rest was on you.

      I thought it was a good change. A few coworkers grumbled and blamed the people who really went to the wall that night. And they also got over it. Your coworkers will, too. I mean, if they’re pissed off because they can’t get wasted for free and need to blame it on someone else, that’s maybe some self-examination they need to be doing.

    3. tangerineRose*

      You didn’t ruin it. Your accident may have reminded people in charge (who already should have thought of this) that what they were doing was a bad idea. If you hadn’t been hurt, who knows what it would have taken them to stop? This situation seems like something where someone could easily have driven while drunk, which could cause tragedies.

      1. tangerineRose*

        And there’s part of me that wants to recommend you to say “I’m sorry that me fracturing my nose and cheekbone caused you so much pain.” (Probably better not to say that though.)

    4. Observer*

      Stay on, don’t notice the coolness, and just be an awesome coworker. You didn’t change the policy, and you weren’t really the cause for the change.

      Would they rather that the policy changed when someone – not from the company even – got REALLY hurt? Or when someone got “gropey” or worse with a coworker – or a coworker’s SO?

      Your accident was a wake up call. Apparently SOMEONE in your management structure was a bit smarter than Travis Kalanick, so they decided to change the rules instead of sending out a memo that “it’s ok to get drunk, but…” That’s actually a good thing. If you don’t get drawn into apologizing for this or acting like this is something bad that you caused, people will get over it. At least the ones worth having a relationship with.

  107. nep*

    I’ve not seen a job opening that suits me/fits my skills in around three or four weeks–it’s freaking me out. When I at least see some suitable openings and have some applications out there, I feel a little better.
    Breathe…Persevere…Breathe…

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I hear ya, nep.
      Got my own breathing exercises going on here.
      We’ll get this, nep, we will get it.

  108. Notapirate*

    How do you estimate cost of living for a job in a new city.

    Laurel, MD near DC is the city for this job. But there’s also a couple job listings in other parts of the country so a general answer or tool to use would be extremely helpful. The salary seems good but I’m fairly certain my current location is less expensive to live in.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Laurel is a decent area (or at least it was when I lived down that way a decade or so ago). It’s about equi distant from DC and Baltimore, so the COL is a bit lower than it would be in those bigger cities.

      1. NotaPirate*

        Thanks! DC definitely is more expensive than my current city, but I forgot how close Baltimore was, I’ll look at pricing that out too.

    3. Not All Who Wander*

      I look up a house I’d be interested in, then pull up things like insurance, utilities, taxes, etc for the past 3 years for that address. I also pull things like vehicle registration costs, check out some grocery store flyers, etc.

      I’ve gotten burned too many times using the online cost of living websites because it seems like they aren’t very good at anything except how much does it cost to buy a house.

      1. NotaPirate*

        I would have never thought to check grocery fliers, that’s a really good idea, it looks like i can just enter a zip code on the main webpage for that. It’s amazing to me how much it varies in areas.

    4. epi*

      You could look up federal government pay scales for that area. Find the job level that pays about your rate where you live now, then find what it will be in the city you’re considering. It’s not perfect but it will give you a sense of what breaking even would be in the new city.

      When I’ve looked into relocating I also focused heavily on apartment searching. What are rents like for a place comparable to what you have now? Would you be able to upgrade in the new city, or would you have to plan to compromise? This is a nice approach because it will give you a sense of how expensive everything is in general, and is also specific information about what your (probably) biggest fixed cost would be and can go straight into your budget.

      1. NotaPirate*

        Thank you for your reply. Rents looked more expensive but then I’m also hoping to upgrade to a 1 bedroom vs my studio apartment. I’d love to work toward owning a home someday. I’ll look into the pay scales, that would be an efficient way of doing it!

      2. Awkward Interviewee*

        I’m not sure government pay scales would help a whole lot in this situation. You get the same locality pay for the whole DC-Baltimore region. Living in/near Laurel is going to be more expensive than a lot of other places around the country, but less expensive than living in a lot of the closer in DC suburbs/northern Virginia. I think looking at rents and cost of living calculators that are more specific than a whole region (if those exist?) would be more helpful.

      3. Lady Kelvin*

        I’d be careful doing this. You would assume that the federal pay scales reflect the cost of living in an area, but they actually reflect the average salary for an area. I live in Hawaii and the feds who work out here actually make significantly less than the equivalent DC folks even though our cost of living is ~3-4 times higher.

    5. The Lady Amalthea*

      I always start out by looking at real estate, either to buy or rent, since housing is typically such a large chunk of monthly expenses. I figure what the net salary per month will be and then I’ll use realtor.com and figure out what my desires for a home are and what that looks like where I’m looking versus where I am (i.e. 3-4 bedrooms, close to transit, etc). I know, for instance, that a salary of $100,000 in the DC area isn’t enough to buy or rent a place comparable to what I’m in now, but $150,000 probably would be. If you’re willing to live with a roommate, then check out craigslist to see what prices look like on there.

      1. NotaPirate*

        DC is so expensive! I’ve gotten burned with bad roommate situations before, though they do bring the cost of renting down considerably. Yes, monthly expenses are much easier for me to comprehend than yearly, plus that’s how my excel sheet is broken down already. Thank you!

    6. Sammytwo*

      Do a general Google search on “relocation calculator”. I like bestplaces.net. Enter the salary you are currently making with your current and proposed cities and it will compare housing costs, health care, transportation, etc.

    7. Native*

      Try looking on the outskirts of Laurel— Elkridge, Ellicott City, Burtonsville. If you’re planning to buy, I’d invest in Howard county or Montgomery county. Steer clear of Prince George’s county.

  109. the gold digger*

    So in a meeting yesterday, my best work friend was in a meeting and noticed our (not a genius fabulous inventor of many patents which could justify it sort of) weird co-worker had removed his feet from his tennies. No, he was not wearing socks. Yes, his toes are gross. Yes, we are casual but I don’t think there is a word for corporate work casual that includes bare feet.

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Ugh, I used to work with a guy who would run around the office barefoot. Fortunately I was rarely in the office myself, but when I did go in it was very off-putting.

      1. Quill*

        Ew, ew, ew.

        I can pick up athlete’s foot from a considerable distance and there is NEVER any reason for people to be going barefoot in places where they can spread it. Don’t take your socks off at your friend’s house, don’t take them off at work.

    3. AnonToday*

      I have an Annoying Cow-Orker who goes around barefoot REGULARLY. I have caught her barefoot in our disgusting bathroom, which has not been mopped since I started here 5 years ago, by my estimation.

      I would not let my bare feet touch these floors on a bet.

    4. Kuododi*

      I was in an interview to join a group counseling practice approx 8-10 years ago. The senior partner with whom I was meeting took his shoes and socks off during the interview and played with his toes. ( Silly me…I shook that guys hand coming in and leaving the meeting. ). Eeck!!!! :(

  110. EmKay*

    I’ve just finished my 3-month probation period at the new job I told you guys about in April (admin assistant in a multinational engineering firm), and things are going really well. The other admin in my department, with whom I share the workload, and I get along like a house on fire. Not only professionally, but also on a personal level. She has dubbed us the Dream Team ™, and she is legit the best coworker I’ve ever had.

    Things got a little crazy at the end of June since we had a huge tender that needed to be completed quickly. We had to do quite a bit of overtime, but we did it equally and we supported each other and we got through it. Plus yay money.

    I get to work from home every Monday, which I appreciate very much. I can also telecommute other days if needed, say I don’t feel so great or I have an outside appointment.

    In short, everything is super great :)

  111. Not So Little My*

    Can folks point me toward some good AAM threads about how to deal with persistent negativity from a work peer/teammate? I searched but all I found were posts about how to address it as a manager.

  112. KatieKate*

    I started talking vaguely to my boss about a possible promotion that would lead to a management position. How can I lay out a timeline of things I need to accomplish (management training, other professional development, etc.) and what he needs to do (get permission for the job to be created, etc.) in a way that seems reasonable? I want this to happen in the next two years, and I want something in writing that says it will (we haven’t discussed timeline, but I think it’s reasonable) but I want to make sure I’m not getting false promises and I end up losing the upward mobility that would come from leaving. We’re meeting next month to flesh this out–what kind of things should I bring? Should I write up an ideal job description?

    1. Anon non*

      So you can write a sample job description, a summary of what value it adds to the company to create this position and an outline of what you would need to do to be ready for it (knowledge, skills and abilities) but creating a list of what your boss needs to do is going to come off as aggressive and off-putting. The company will also not guaranteed anything. Promotions come from the company having a business need for the upgraded position in addition to you being ready for it, it’s not something they are obligated to do because you position and prepare for it.

      1. KatieKate*

        I was thinking of it in more of a “What steps do we need to take to make this happen?” I wasn’t planning on putting together a to-do list for him.

        And I understand that, but I want to make sure I’m not committing the next few years for something that’s not going to happen. In the same way that I would trade a commitment of time worked for grad school repayment (something that my company offers), I’m hoping I can present this is a similar format. I don’t want to come off as aggressive–I’m just excited about the opportunity!

        1. Management Material*

          The thing is, you can never know that it will definitely happen. Even if they make you a promise in writing now, your boss might leave/get fired/retire/win the lottery and their replacement may not be willing to honour that promise. Promotions just are not something that can be “traded for” in that way. It’s not comparable to the grad school scheme.

          It’s reasonable to have a conversation with your boss where you discuss what you’d need to do to be considered for such a promotion, and what sort of timescale might be reasonable to achieve that. But beyond that, you just can’t guarantee any of this. And approaching it as if you can is going to seem naive at best.

  113. Courageous cat*

    For job applications, when they have those EEOC questions about your race and whether you’re disabled and all that…

    It says the information doesn’t change anything on the employer’s side, but does it really? If I put “decline to specify” for all of it, wouldn’t they unconsciously wonder if I’m going to be difficult? Doesn’t specifying your race potentially put you either at an advantage or disadvantage, depending on which way it’s looked at by the interviewer?

    Or do they not really get access to that info?

    Just curious.

    1. AnitaJ*

      As someone who’s screened resumes/interviewed candidates before, it 100% doesn’t matter to me if you decline to answer. We’re collecting that information for AAP/EEO purposes, so that if we get audited, we can show the government our diversity stats. But I have never, ever, taken any of those answers into account when hiring people. I think half our current employees declined to answer, and this is a pretty diverse company (all races, all genders [trans & enby], all levels of ability). Go for what makes you comfortable!

      1. Anon non*

        + this. It 100% does not matter. It is collected as a stat only and never goes outside the recruiting team.

      2. Courageous cat*

        Yeah, this is what I would hope is the answer! But I can’t help but wonder about people with conscious (or unconscious) biases towards any particular answer. But this is good to know regardless.

    2. Dragoning*

      When I “declined to specify” on my application to CVS they decided that meant “male” for some reason (I’m AFAB nonbinary) on all the insurance documents.

      So keep an eye out for things like that.

      1. Courageous cat*

        That’s what I wonder about!! People are human and, for better or for worse, tend to make assumptions. Ideally the assumption would just be that they declined to specify, but you never know (and it sucks – like for your case).

      2. anonagain*

        It’s super weird to me that they used your application information for your insurance paperwork. Lot’s of people don’t answer.

  114. anonforthisone*

    so my company just got bought by another company six weeks ago. we were a boutique chocolate teapot maker of around 40 people– the company that bought us is more like a ceramics and cutlery industry who were looking for teapot services and there are around 4000 of them already. Both companies have been quick to affirm us that nothing is going to change and that it’s all business as usual. Sounds okay so far right? Well… I work in the software department for the company, which tracks improvements in teapots and gives information on how to make teapots. I’m not a developer per se, but I do help with QA and do some development. However, that’s not my whole job– most of my job is research in the field. I spend anywhere between 20-30 hours a week just reading articles and gathering information about developments in teapot making. This is something that my boss and the ceo both found very helpful and valuable, and I’ve caught changes in the field before other teapot making companies.

    I’m just worried now about how this is going to look to the new company. This isn’t really something that we can bill to our teapot buying clients, and while I have my fingers in plenty of other products, a lot of them (cutlery research, as an example), are things the new company do better and more of. on top of this, the company that bought us specifically bought our chocolate teapot knowledge, and cares less about our teapot improvement software– my department. should I be worried about how this merger goes? I really love my job, this company, and my bosses, and I love the research element, but I’m worried this is the kind of thing that budget-conscious large companies might figure needs cutting.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you show how your research has helped the business?

      “My research on gold handled teapots, indicated that silver handled teapots would do better. I review the stats with [company decision makers] and they agreed. We changed to silver handled teapots. Our profits increased 25% that year.”

      Basically, you are justifying your paycheck. So ideally you want to show that you make x a year and help the company gain much more per year in profits and savings.

  115. Ainomiaka*

    2 questions
    This was a weird thing that came up and I don’t know if I need to change anything-
    I interviewed for an internal position. I send email thank you notes. I generally don’t expect a response but I have gotten several you’re welcome emails. I don’t want to contribute to anyone’s email overload. Is there a way to indicate that I don’t expect or require a response? Do I need to worry about it?
    2nd- I’m 13 weeks pregnant and going to have to start telling people soon. How did you do that? I feel weird scheduling a meeting with my boss for that, but she needs to know eventually. So. . . What is your experience with that?

    1. SoSo*

      1: I think you’re fine; no need to worry any more about it! Some people send those types of emails, some don’t.

      2: Scheduling a formal meeting time might be a bit odd, but I don’t know your work culture. I just had a coworker/team mate announce her pregnancy last week, and she just popped in to the boss’ office when her schedule was open and said “Hey, do you have a second for a quick chat?” Then she closed the door and told her. It was pretty relaxed and not a big deal. A few of us heard the excited congratulations, and word spread like wildfire after that. It really kind of took care of itself.

    2. Courageous cat*

      1 – nope. They’re sending a response because they want to, not because they think you actively expect one. I don’t think that’s ever really implied with a basic thank you note. So I wouldn’t worry!

    3. Nita*

      First – I think it’s not a big deal! It only takes five seconds to write “you’re welcome!” if anyone feels like it.

      Second – congrats! how you set up the conversation depends on whether you can just pop into your boss’s office. That’s what I’ve done before, but when I had to talk to my boss about this baby, I did schedule a meeting (actually, folded it into an informal mid-year performance review). The reason was, we’re short-staffed, have lost a couple of people lately, and I didn’t want to just waltz in and drop news like that on her when we’re already having a crazy few weeks. If it was a slower time, I’d probably just come in and ask if she has a few minutes to talk, but as it was a meeting felt more “right”.

    4. Thlayli*

      Do NOT tell anyone you are pregnant until after you hear back about the new job. Wear baggy clothes.

  116. Justme, The OG*

    I applied to a job in the field that I want to move to after I finish my degree. They emailed me to set up a phone interview, and that email included pay. It was less than my base now. Not to mention my benefits (they are amazing) and flexible schedule. I had to turn them down, and I told them that I was not willing to take a pay cut. They were understanding. And I would never had applied for that position had the salary been posted in the job listing.

  117. AnitaJ*

    Job searching while IVF – am I a jerk Part 2!

    I’m job searching while finishing up my first cycle of IVF, and I’ve been offered a great job. Still waiting on the paperwork, so nothing is final and I’m not counting chickens. In the meantime, I have an opportunity for an interview next week with another company. Am I a jerk if I go ahead with the interview anyway, knowing that there’s a good chance I’ll be accepting job #1? I’d try to make it for the end of the week, and cancel as soon as the paperwork is signed. I just don’t want to be an asshole to the recruiter (and company).

    1. Seriously?*

      Are there circumstances where you would take the job? If so, keep the interview. It sounds like there are (1st job falls though, something int he paperwork sets off red flags, the process is delayed and job#2 really impresses you, ect.). You aren’t leading them on unless you know going in that it is 100% a no.

    2. Rey*

      Go ahead with the interview! There are lots of situations where a job offer at this stage still ends up not working out or not being a good fit. (And I hope your IVF goes well! Sending good vibes :)

    3. Epsilon Delta*

      When you say you’ve been offered a job, does that mean that they actually made you an offer and you verbally accepted, and you’re just waiting for something like a background check to clear? Personally, in that case I would not interview with the other company unless the circumstances were unusual (really wanted to work at the second company, really not interested in the company that offered me a job, etc). In my mind that is backing out of an offer after you’ve accepted it, and you would need a good reason to do so or risk burning a bridge.

      If it’s something less formal, like they said that they would “like to” make you an offer but haven’t done that yet, then yeah, totally go for the interview.

    4. Nita*

      If you’ve accepted the offer, backing out now means singing your bridges… maybe not actually burning them, but not great. It also can take a while to hear back form #2, so you’d likely be signing the paperwork before you hear back from them anyway. If you haven’t actually accepted the offer in any way, it’s a different story and you might be able to squeeze in an interview and hope #2 makes the decision quickly. Good luck!

    5. AnitaJ*

      Thanks, all! This is helpful. The verbal offer has been extended and I said ‘Great! Can’t wait to review the paperwork! I’ll look it over and discuss this with my spouse.’ (Because I’m not about to accept any offer without something in writing and info about their benefits). And that was yesterday, so I’m still waiting on more info. I’m just really sensitive to wasting other people’s time when it comes to scheduling meetings, and I would prefer not to do that to company #2. I think I will wait to hear from both companies.

      And thanks for the good vibes, Rey :) I need them very much!

      1. Thlayli*

        You haven’t signed anything with the new job yet so you are still in job searching mode. Continue with other interview until you have formally accepted the other offer.

        I wish you sticky baby dust as they say in the ttc fora.

  118. Master Bean Counter*

    Advice and/or sympathy

    My boss is a ball of negativity, at times. He’s also the kind of guy that would be happy living in Antarctica. We work in a place that is a close neighbor to the Sun. He’s also taken the hottest office in the building, because it has a back door.
    So combine the fact that he’s hot and miserable with an overall grumpy attitude about work–I seriously think he’s burning out, he waited too long to start delegating work. It’s down right disturbing to be in an office next to him.
    Lately he’s just been a curmudgeon. It’s to the point the CEO goes around him to talk to me. In fact none of the upper management want to deal with him. But none of them will do anything about it.
    I’m also the chosen person that my boss complains to as well. While it’s great that it seems that everybody in the building seems to trust me and comes to me. It’s getting a bit exhausting.
    I’m sure I could wait out the 5 years or so until my bosses retirement, he’s not that bad all of the time. I’ve also got feelers out for other work, but in a small market this could take years.
    How do I deal will negative Ned in the mean time?

    1. anonymoushiker*

      That is tough, you have my sympathy. Can you focus on acknowledging the complaints but shifting the conversation immediately when he’s complaining ?

    2. Jessi*

      erm give the CEO a gentle boot next time he comes to talk to you? “This is affecting moral” “this is really affecting staff” “its not a good look to be seen supporting a bad attitude”

      Give the boss a boot too? “Sounds like you need to delegate more” “Are you aware that you chose the hottest office?” “Maybe you should buy a fan” “I think people are starting to avoid you as you have been really grumpy lately”

    3. Observer*

      Can you get an AC unit in his office? I’m serious. At one point we had some serious issues with the AC and there were a few offices without windows that were very hot, so we put small split units in them.

  119. Bees' Knees*

    Yesterday I went from facing down unemployment in two weeks to two job offers in ten minutes. Champagne for everyone!

  120. a good mouse*

    I only have one on one’s with my boss once every three months. I think that’s weird. Isn’t that kind of weird? My old boss had one on one’s twice a month, then went down to once a month when the department got bigger. This is pretty much the only time I see my boss.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Are there things you’d like to talk about that you feel you don’t get a chance to? If so, you should probably ask your boss to have more frequent one-on-ones. But if it’s just a matter of “I’m used to this way, so this new way is a bit weird,” you may just have to get used to it. For what it’s worth, I have one-on-ones with my boss only once a year for my annual review. We talk about issues as issues come up, but we don’t have a regularly scheduled meeting.

    2. Murphy*

      I’d say it depends on schedules and the size of the team. Are they in communication in other ways even if you don’t have physical meetings?

    3. NW Mossy*

      I do one-on-ones with my direct weekly, and I’ve got 10 directs. I don’t know how in the world someone can be effective in actually managing at that low a frequency, especially if they’re the only dedicated time a boss gives to a direct.

      In my experience, infrequent one-on-ones are a false economy – the time you “save” in not having them as often is almost immediately spent twice over by more emails, more pop-bys, and more crisis management as you deal with issues that you didn’t resolve when they were a much smaller deal. You also take away your platform to give regular feedback and coaching, so any of that you actually do feels like it’s coming out of nowhere.

      When I first started managing I did them bi-weekly, but I switched to weekly and it made a huge difference in the quality of my management. I have much better relationships with my directs now – I know their strengths and weaknesses better, I know what their goals and career aspirations are, and I stay better informed about what’s going on at the ground level. In turn, my directs feel a lot more comfortable sharing information with me because they actually know me – I’m not some faceless Boss Lady who drops in like a falling coconut at random times.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I don’t know how in the world someone can be effective in actually managing at that low a frequency, especially if they’re the only dedicated time a boss gives to a direct.

        My boss gives me a fair bit of autonomy, and I also communicate frequently via emails or impromptu informal conversations. Just because you don’t have regularly scheduled official “one-on-ones” doesn’t mean the boss has no idea what’s going on with the direct reports.

    4. Rainy*

      I have one on ones with my boss weekly, but we are also a team of two so they double as planning meetings a lot of the time. Quarterly seems like too little to me.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I almost never see my supervisor except to sign paperwork. Or if it looks like something is going to bite us in the ass. I send FYI updates on projects and monthly reports. I appreciated this community that this is more typical in an academic environment and have stopped worrying about it.

  121. No Tribble At All*

    My paperwork for my promotion came through!!! And the raise was higher than I thought it would be!!! Excited screaming!

  122. The Babiest Babyface*

    I’m technically still an intern at my job, but I’ve been doing the exact same work as the Legit lab techs for the past three months or so. Yesterday, I had to do a task that I’ve heard people complain about the entire year I’ve been here and it wasn’t hard at all? It wasn’t even tedious. This job has a ton of downtime (way more than I’m comfortable with) and even yesterday was Not Enough Work for my taste. But the good news is, I’m done soon!!

    2. Hamburke*

      As a lab tech, I finished all the office off-season work in about 4 days… I had to find work for the next 3 months… So bored! But in the summer, I was barely getting the admin parts of my job done like chemical inventory and filing reports….

  123. anon anony*

    I work with someone who is the office “Golden child”, but their work is not very good. I’m not perfect, but this person gets away with so much, yet everyone loves them. I don’t get it. If I did what they did, I would be in major trouble. It’s frustrating because I sometimes get blamed for their mistakes! I’m getting sick of it.

    Does personality always win over work ethic/quality?

    1. NicoleK*

      Yes. I too work with a “golden child”. The “golden child” barely knows how to use a computer. She’s super slow at her tasks. She needs a lot of hand holding for someone who has been in her position for 5 years. But she’s really chatty, personable, and people think she’s the best thing since sliced bread.

    2. Never*

      Apparently. Everything I’ve ever been told about working hard getting you ahead has been a lie.

    3. CynicallySweet*

      I think it depends on where you are/what your job is. In my company it really varies. There are jobs where people are BELOVED and completely useless. But, in other positions that absolutely would not fly.

    4. Kir Royale*

      Oh yes, the golden child. She literally had golden hair, was young, pretty, and personable. But not above claiming she did technical work that she hasn’t the faintest clue about. Thankfully gone. Ever see the Golden Child with Eddie Murphy? That’s the one I want, he can turn a leaf into a butterfly.

      1. Middle School Teacher*

        Haha your description will have me humming ABBA for the rest of the day :)

    5. Honestly I'd be a hermit if I could*

      Frequently. Anytime there is an office pet or favorite golden child it will not end well. It winds up creating a lot of interoffice drama where everyone but golden child and boss(or the clique) who worships them rolls their eyes and is fed up with having to fix GC’s mistakes and constant stupidity. I had a situation where I detailed(in writing) all of the things the GC had flubbed and how much of a delay each flub had caused. I was told their behavior didn’t matter but it was still my fault for not somehow anticipating their mistakes and getting things done on time. Mind you this was a renovation project and GC was responsible for things like choosing materials and colors, so exactly how I was supposed to get things ordered and installed on time was left unexplained.

    6. Thlayli*

      I’ve never noticed this. I work hard and it’s always been recognised. Never seen anyone be promoted just coz of personality.

      Maybe I’m just lucky.

      1. Canadian Jessie*

        Lol – maybe that means you’re the Golden Child?! (I mainly say this because I was kind of thinking the same thing.. I work hard, and I’m recognized, but then I started wondering if that’s just my (and my bosses) perception, and if everyone else here thinks I’m a GC?? )

      2. tangerineRose*

        I think it depends on the company – in some companies, to be sort of a “favorite”, you have to be good at your job. Sounds like you’re at that kind of company.

  124. AvonLady Barksdale*

    In light of that question about all the guys in the office going away for a weekend, I’m curious about something. In a few weeks, several people from my company are going on an out-of-town trip. The women who are going (myself included) are all pretty friendly, all senior in the company, and all around the same age, and three are mothers of young children who don’t get to go out very often. We’ll have our evenings free after dinner. I’ve been casually talking to my women co-workers about getting drinks together, just the women, so we can spend some time talking and we can give the mothers in the group a chance to unwind that they wouldn’t get with the whole group. This sounded like a great idea to me, but I’m wondering if it might not be so great. Compounding my desire to do this is some discussions I’ve been having lately about sexism in both our company and our industry, and I’d kind of like the opportunity to talk about this without the guys’ input.

    For what it’s worth, I think that most of the men who are coming on this trip wouldn’t even blink if all the women decided to go off together. But we are working really hard on making our presence at the table known, so maybe it’s not such a good plan to do that away from the men?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you’re fine. There is a vast difference between women networking to lift each other up and men networking and preventing women from benefiting from it.

    2. CynicallySweet*

      This is probably fine. You’re not planning a whole day event based only on gender. There’s a difference between going off on your own after dinner and making a day out of it. Think of it this way: if it was a normal work day and a couple of your male colleagues were going out together after work for a drink, you wouldn’t think anything of it. Go for it!

    3. Ali G*

      If you have more than one evening free I would suggest everyone do a dinner together once and the rest of the time you can pick and choose who you want to spend that time with. It’s good for everyone to get to know each other outside the office just a little.

    4. Thlayli*

      I think if there’s already a bit of “us v them” sexism going on this is just gonna exacerbate that.

  125. Natalie Stewart*

    i, my name is Natalie Stewart and I would like your advice on how to get out of the Administrative Assistant field. I have been in the Administrative Assistant field for 11 years. My plan is to go back to college in a few months to get a Bachelor’s Degree in Business Administration. I would like to know what field to move in from being a Administrative Assistant. I have been looking at some careers like Business Analyst and Project Manager. Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You should pick something that comes to you naturally.

      For example there is a reason I do not repair cars for a living. I have no natural ability what so ever. Making matters worse, I don’t care to learn how cars work or how they are put together. Car repair is not an option for me.

      Are you good in math? Do you like handling numbers? What do you read now? Do you gravitate toward articles about business?

      I think project management would be challenging, you manage the project but sometimes not the people. Are you a people person, do you enjoy people and their vast array of differences?

  126. Michael*

    On a job application, it asks “have you ever been dismissed or asked to resign from any position?”

    What if you’ve been let go from several college type jobs, etc. Are you suppose to list every single job you’ve been let go of? Or just one?

    Why don’t they use the word fired instead of dismissed

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      No advice here, but that’s just such a ridiculous question. Even if it wasn’t a college-type job, what if you were fired 20 years ago from a “real adult” job? That means you’re somehow tainted forever, despite all the amazing work you’ve been doing the last 5-10 years?

      There’s a reason hiring managers don’t want references from 15 years ago—they want to know what your recent working style and work ethic are like, not what you were like long, long ago.

      Now, if you were fired for embezzling money or doing something else super shady, I can get a potential employer wanting to know that, but that’s not what the question asks.

    2. Temperance*

      They want to know about each instance, especially if there’s a pattern.

      They use the word dismissed because it sounds nicer than fired.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        They want to know about each instance, especially if there’s a pattern.

        Better to ask about it in an interview then instead of on a job application.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            I’m not saying asking about it in an interview is common. I’m just saying that makes more sense, because firings can have some nuance involved, and you can sometimes tell more from a person’s face and mannerisms and word choice than you can from a checkbox or number on an online form.

            But it’s also kind of silly in the sense that someone truly unethical (who may have been fired for unethical reasons) may have absolutely zero qualms about lying about having been fired, whereas someone with ethics fired for a silly reason will feel compelled to be truthful about it and may be dinged for it.

        2. Temperance*

          Not if they’re trying to whittle down the number of applicants that they interview.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            The more you automate it, the more you reward people who are liars, then. You’ll weed out the people who are actually great and trustworthy workers who happened to have been fired once a long time ago.

    3. Barbara*

      I think dismiss is the pc word to say fire.
      If it was a long time ago I wouldn’t mention it. They won’t find out unless you live in a small town where everyone knows everyone.

      1. Michael*

        I was let go from a side job I worked for 6 hours a week, should I mention it in the future?

        1. Barbara*

          I wouldn’t even mention it. You don’t have to list every job you have done. List what is relevant and recent.

          1. Michael*

            thanks all for the helpful comments.

            I re-checked the application and found something interesting. The question if “you’ve ever been dismissed” had an asterisk next to it. The directions clearly state the questions with asterisks are required. I said “yes” to the question. The next question that had no asterisk, said “if yes, please explain.” I could have technically left that question blank, but I explained one situation and that’s it. Interesting that the follow up question didn’t have an asterisk next to it.

  127. CynicallySweet*

    I’m not sure if people like updates to things that were posted here before, but mine comes with a new question at the end. I’m the person whose whole dept is really into fantasy sports and I was getting left out of opportunities b/c I wasn’t. Just a warning the update is long.
    I really appreciated all the advice! Extra props for the person suggesting making a joke about my previous lack of interest, and I was waiting for a new session to start to utilize some of the advice. I guess there was some internal drama within the group and a couple people were kicked out around the same time as a couple more left the company (so it was down to like 8 or 9 people at this point, this is important I promise). Then one day the guy who sits next to me, Phil (I don’t remember the fake name I gave him last time), gets called down to HR along with Jack (another ring leader who we work with). When they got back they were rip shit. Apparently the group had been reported to HR for creating an exclusive environment, and they needed to disband the league. I spent the day listening to what can only be described as an epic bitch fest between Phil and Jack, and planning out a conversation to have with Phil (and maybe Jack though I wasn’t as sure about that) about how yeah it did.
    Things got really busy and I never got to have a full out conversation with Phil, but the next day we did have some back and forth about it, and b/c of my notes I was still able to give him some good examples about how I personally had been left out of opportunities because of this. He took this really well and we both went on with our work. At the end of the day when everyone else was gone (we were/are on deadline pretty constantly and often work late), he asked (paraphrased) ‘Have I ever made you feel like less a part of the team b/c you’re a woman’. I was completely blown away by this, and assured him absolutely not (which is true, it was totally surrounding the sport, there were women in the group b4, but 2 left and one got kicked out for cheating). Apparently the complaint had been that involvement was gender based, which is why HR decided to act.
    So, after the drama and leaving, but before the HR complaint we had a new woman start in our department (I’m going to call her Alice). Jack decided that she was probably the one to report it bc she wouldn’t know there were women before, and while working with her fine, he did start talking pretty crappily about her. To the point where I told him to stop multiple times and Phil said if he heard her name come out of Jack’s mouth again he was walking away from the conversation (which at the time meant his own cube). I actually felt kind of bad for Alice. She was having trouble finding people to hang out with before Jack started bad mouthing her, and that wasn’t helping. This is weird in our department, they have a very structured training/mentor system in place, so new people usually have someone to spend time with (I’m in a weird sub section that doesn’t do this).
    After a few days I asked Alice out to lunch. I’m going to be 100% honest here, I didn’t really want to, it was largely in response to Jack being an ass and my own history with being bullied. Alice is odd, it’s really hard to explain other than a vibe and/or pattern of speaking, and it can be uncomfortable to spend large amounts of time with her. But I figured no one else was, her mentor could barely stand her and was actively avoiding her, Jack was being an ass, other people were spending as little time with her as possible, and I don’t really have anything to loose (Jack doesn’t get to be a dick to me, I’m his contact in our group and am known for going the extra mile for my guys, he does not want that to go away).
    The only possible way to describe that lunch was BIZARRE. I can’t actually remember everything she said (I did not get to speak), but here is a rough outline (my thoughts are in parentheses both for clarification and just to get a say in): Jack is a sexist pig (no, he can be an ass, but no); her boss is incompetent (also, absolutely not true); her mentor hates her (I mean, that one could be right); the secretaries at her last job were really nice to her too (being the only woman in my group doesn’t make me the secretary, sexist much); she thought she would be ‘wheeling and dealing, not chained to a desk’ (no idea why she thought that. For fun I looked up the job description and it was accurate); went into GRAPHIC detail about how hot she thought a couple of people in IT are (including my friend, which, I don’t want to think about my work friend like that dude); how her contact in a different department is a bitch b/c she was making Alice do something she didn’t want to (her contact is my mother, we have the same last name, it is not common); she thought that after she got that sports shit shut down people would start hanging out with her (Whaaa the f***????); Phil is conspiring against her b/c he wouldn’t change something in our system like she wanted (Fun fact, I was the one who pushed back on that and ultimately made the no decision). There is more, but I can’t remember all of it, and I think you guys get the picture.
    Needless to say I was pretty shell shocked after this and didn’t tell anyone about how the lunch went (despite Jack asking how my pity date went, I told him to can it). But I feel like I should give someone a heads up?? But I’m not even sure who to talk to, my boss, her boss, HR? And what do I say exactly (that she’s unhinged, no, but also kind of, yes)? Do I give Phil a heads up that she apparently loathes him in a real and concrete way (I don’t want to say physical attacks are possible, but she was really worked up)?
    Also, she now wants to go to lunch again (apparently she thought this was going to be a weekly thing). I made an excuse for this week, but idk what to do about next. I don’t want to say no b/c she really did come off as unhinged there, but I also really don’t want to go. Normally I would invite a buffer, but since she spent a not insignificant amount of time talking about what she thinks my only work friends junk is like I’m not inviting him, and my mom’s out for obvious reasons. I’m normally a very direct person, but saying ‘No, I don’t want to’ seems like a really bad idea. Advice?

    1. Alice*

      Wow! Bravo to you and Phil for having that conversation. About the rest, wow. Good luck….

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      Definitely don’t keep on getting lunch with her. You’re under no obligation and you don’t want to get saddled with her for forever.

      I don’t think this is a problem for HR (yet), but I might say to her boss, “Hey, I just wanted to let you know that I had lunch with Alice the other week and she said some pretty concerning things…” You should at least let the boss know that Alice is talking bad about her.

      It’s important to keep your attitude politely concerned but detached. You don’t want to come off like you’re gossiping, so you should try to give off the vibe that you don’t really care but you think telling her is the right thing to do. Which is the truth!

      1. CynicallySweet*

        Not a bad idea thanks! And, no worries, I have no intention of going again, mostly want to know how to get out of it!

        1. CynicallySweet*

          Ok. The more I think about it the more I think I do need to talk to her manager. Not necessairly about the bad mouthing, but there were some things she said job wise that have me really concerned. I can’t go into too much detail w/o giving away my industry but we work heavily with a govt agency and there are real consequences for a lot other people if she starts blowing off some of the stuff she was talking about.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Normally I would invite a buffer, but since she spent a not insignificant amount of time talking about what she thinks my only work friends junk is like I’m not inviting him, and my mom’s out for obvious reasons.

      Actually, Mom might be your golden ticket. “I’m actually having lunch with my mom, but maybe you’d like to join us. You know, Jane Mylastname? From X Department?” She might never ask you again. XD

        1. CynicallySweet*

          That is brilliant! Thank you!! Although I am concerned she won’t remember and /or be desperate enough to say yes. I don’t think it’ll be possible to actually make clear that I don’t want to go.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Do not do this/ “Oh, I can’t make it. But MomSweet said she would be happy to have lunch with you.”/Do not do this.

    4. tab*

      You can tell her that since she thinks your mother is a bitch, you’re not interested in having lunch with her again.

      1. CynicallySweet*

        I kind of wish I had in the moment tbh but I was so stunned by the whole spiel that I just was silent. Tho that might be a solid way to go

          1. CynicallySweet*

            Not actually the plan (in my head doesn’t count). I’ve got a big deadline starting next week that I was planning to lean heavily on for at least the next month or so and just hope she’ll have lost interest by the end of it

  128. CatAnon*

    Mostly venting, I guess.

    I’ve known my employer isn’t great for awhile now, but I mostly like my actual job and I’m making a reasonable wage and I genuinely like most of my direct coworkers and my boss is pretty great. But I’m getting more details lately about how much less great it is than I had thought. Trying to weigh whether I start job searching or continue to deal and hope my boss can make a difference (she’s really trying, but she’s pretty new herself and doesn’t have much capital to spend on tackling anything that’s not reeeeeeeally egregious).

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Searching doesn’t obligate you to leave. There’s no harm in at least seeing what else is out there.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I don’t think it ever hurts to keep your options open. I love my current job and team, and I plan on staying here until I retire, but I still have an updated Linkedin page, and connect with recruiters every now and then. Stuff can happen and I want to maintain my network just in case I ever need to seriously job search. So if you are feeling like you need to search, go and ahead and do so – nothing wrong with looking.

  129. Frustrated freelancer*

    Hi everyone, I wrote in on the open thread in mid-June asking how long was too long for a freelancer to wait for payment. (My former employer of many years had asked me to do some work for them; I said sure; we put nothing in writing.) I had not yet been paid for work I did starting in February. Thanks to the comments I decided to follow through with putting in my notice for the end of June. I had one out-standing project that I finished up this week; I sent them a list of everything I had submitted during that time period (I heard through the grapevine that the boss had asked my supervisor for this, despite both receiving a list each month). The boss wrote back, thanked me for my patience, told me about the company’s financial woes, and promised I would get everything I was owed. So … now I continue to wait. Must be something about my pushover personality …

      1. Inspector Spacetime*

        You can have a lawyer write them a nasty letter. Won’t cost you much, and may or may not scare them into paying you.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Have you sent an actual invoice to their accounts payable person, if such a person exists?

      1. Frustrated freelancer*

        Small business … accounts payable is immediate family member of boss.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Okay, but that still means there’s a person whose job is paying the bills. Send it to that person.

        2. Undine*

          Yes, but is there an official paper trail? An invoice with a “Net 30” or “Due Date” line. That would be the first step.

          1. Frustrated freelancer*

            The paper trail is a monthly email that says “[Month] [projects] for a total of $200” and then they are listed. The most recent one lists all my projects and says “[Company] owes me a total of $1,000.” I probably should have put a due date on it. I guess I’m just too worn down to fight. (Long story.)

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I bill monthly and expect to get paid monthly. If I haven’t gotten paid by about 45 days from the date I sent the invoice I send a reminder “Hey, I was just checking to see if you got the May invoice. I haven’t received a payment, I’ve attached it again for your convenience.” If the answer is anything other than an unqualified “thanks, I’ll make sure it’s paid immediately” I wouldn’t be doing any more work for them. I don’t work for free.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Their email to you is your proof of contract. I suggest you reply to their email with a due date of 30 days from now. Their financial problems are BS x not your problem. Stop doing work for them until you are paid.

  130. Job Agony*

    I have a not-yet dilemma that I could use some advice on. I have been at my current job for about 15 months and love it. I have a great boss, I just hired a couple of people on my team, I get paid well, and I do really interesting work. The only problem with it is that I live about 500 miles from my family and really miss being in my home state. My husband and I want to start a family soon and our parents are getting older…so we always thought about moving back in the next 3-5 years.

    While I’m not actively looking for jobs now, I do follow a couple of companies back home and last week one company posted basically my ideal role. It would be a slight step up from my current responsibilities but working in an area I love and allow me to be close to family. I come from a small, rural state and jobs in my particular role are very rare (in the past four years that I’ve been watching the job boards this is the first time such a job has come open.) I agonized for a bit and ended up applying, and got asked for a phone screen right away, which was great, and I’m waiting to hear if I moved on to the next step.

    I know this is premature since I don’t know if I’ll get an offer yet…but would it be completely stupid to leave a job I love that I’m still relatively new in (and just hired a team) to be in the location we want? Would I totally be burning my bridges with a boss I love and has been wonderful to work for? Any advice is much appreciated!

    1. Barbara*

      Why not applying and see if you get an offer.
      You wouldn’t burn bridges if you say you need to move to take care of your old parents. Make sure you stay long enough in your next job to avoid being labelled as job hooper.
      It’s important to live where you want and to be near your family while they are still here.
      Maybe father is getting old and I am thinking of going back to my home country where he lives. Because when he dies it will be too late.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      It’s normal to move on from jobs. It’s not burning any bridge. Do your due diligence at the interviews and make sure that it’s a job you actually want because you’re leaving something good. Good luck!

    3. Thlayli*

      15 months is long enough. You’re not burning bridges by moving on and leaving in good terms

  131. Jaybeetee*

    Bah, can I just vent a minute? I started this new job three months ago – I’m enjoying the work, but I’m finding the people challenging. It’s one of those teams where everyone else has worked together for like 20 years, and I’ve basically been invisible since I started. My manager barely talks to me, neither does anyone else.

    Well, as they say, it’s frustrating but I’m not actually here to make friends. What bugs me though, is that three months in, I’m not really sure where I’m “at” with this job – whether they see me as doing well or badly. This is a government role, so I’m not concerned about getting called in and fired one day, and eventually there *will* be an evaluation (big problems with my manager if she doesn’t do this), but right now I’m just kinda in my corner, doing my thing. I know they were frustrated with me on a couple of occasions not long after I started, but my manager apologized for that, and even she admitted I wasn’t given much training and that it had been a very long time since they’d had anyone new here. I keep getting a vibe that they expected me to know more about this work than I do (double-jump promotion into a new field for me – I’ve done some work like this in the past, but I think they expected me to know more).

    Mix into this, I was diagnosed with ADHD-I a couple of months ago, and am about to go on medication for the same. I’m considering the diagnosis to be a “back-pocket” thing if it turns out they don’t like my performance here, so that I can request some accommodations (additional training, flexible schedule, more QC, etc) but I haven’t disclosed/mentioned it yet.

    For now I’m taking a “no news is good news” approach and I figure if anything is wrong, they’ll tell me. Just…frustrating and a bit anxiety-inducing not knowing if I’m doing well, or even okay, at this point or not.

    Sorry for the length. I don’t even really need advice at this point – just annoying/frustrating.

    1. loslothluin*

      I had the “no communication” thing when I started the job I’m at now. It used to bother/frustrate me, too. I was there 5-6 mos. before the new real estate paralegal started, and she was the first one to speak to me. We stayed friends after she went back to her old company. Since then, it’s generally been one person out of the whole office that’ll talk to me. It’s a small office so it’s just been three partner attorneys, contract attorney, firm administrator and two paralegals.

      I’ve just gotten to the point that, if the bosses do talk to me, all I can think is, “Oh, what fresh hell is this?”

  132. loslothluin*

    So, in my job searching, I still don’t have a definite answer from the real estate attorney. He said that he’s trying to be careful with the woman I’d be replacing. Even though she has no idea what she’s doing and isn’t picking it up quickly, he’s worried about her saying it’s an age thing or the fact she was on medical leave until a few days ago.

    I got an email from my old college advisor asking if I was looking for a job. She said a friend of hers works at a firm that’s hiring and to send her my resume. So, I sent that off as well. I’ve also applied for jobs at the local ACLU (be nice to feel like I’m contributing society) and the local legal services for low income/indigent people.

    I do have a quest and maybe it’s because I’m behind on the times since I’ve only had 2 jobs in 20 years. I got a message on LinkedIn from a staffing agency (which is fine), and they said they had a job that would be perfect for me. We set up a time, and they said to bring 3 copies of my resume and references. When I got there, they had me fill out an old school job application (haven’t filled one of those out since I got my first job in high school.)

    Is that normal now? Or are these people off their cracker?

    1. Epsilon Delta*

      I’ve had to fill out a job application for each of the professional jobs I’ve had. One was indeed on paper. The other two were online. One was a formality after I got the job (through a network contact) and one was part of the application process.

      1. loslothluin*

        I don’t think I’ve even had to do an online application the entire time I’ve been seriously looking for a new job. They just want my resume, references, and cover letter.

      2. KX*

        80% of the midlevel, professional career jobs I have applied for in the past ten years ask for a resume and cover letter, and then require you to fill out the application online, too. Even within Current Company, for an internal position.

        At least it saves the information so I don’t have to start over each time if I apply again at a company. I’ve been remembered for 5+ years at some places I forgot I ever applied at!

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      I had to do that at the staffing agency I’m currently employed through. They didn’t make me do all the job history stuff, but I had to fill in my personal information and sign it.

    3. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      Typical for a staffing agency, I think. I also saw where you said that you hadn’t had to fill out an online application and I think that is very lucky. It seems like all the places I apply have you upload a cover letter/resume and then want you to re-enter all that info into their online system (it’s supposed to fill in from the resume but that never seems to work quite right).

      1. loslothluin*

        Maybe it’s just a legal field thing? All I’ve ever had to do is send my resume and cover letter off to the HR person, and I either hear from them or I don’t. Though, typically, it’s through networking rather than applying through the company website – like the email I got from my old advisor. It was out of nowhere, but I happily sent my resume on to her.

    4. KX*

      I got my first one ever this week. I applied for a job that was already filled but they had something similar and they sent me the job description and asked me to call. We decided this one was not for me but that I should keep watching the company career site.

  133. No Tribble At All*

    Our pointy-haired boss just gave us a new checklist for something we have to do regularly (refill the teapot). It’s not a helpful checklist because he doesn’t do this process (and he’s an idiot). But we’re supposed to check off that we did each item on the list, sign it, and send it to him personally. One of the items on the list is that there’s more than X time remaining when we start the process. Note: the margin he gives is way longer than we need, and we have other tasks, so we frequently go under that time limit with no issue. So… if I’m following the procedure exactly, and there’s less than X time left, I have failed the procedure. Does this mean I shouldn’t continue? I’m kinda tempted to let the teapot boil dry and tell him that I was following his procedure.

    1. Princess Scrivener*

      Sorry, no advice, but your pointy-haired idiot boss gave me a giggle, so thank you!

    2. Argh!*

      Sounds like there’s something going wrong and this is his attempt to correct it. Can you (& coworkers) meet with him to ask what inspired the checklist? You could hint that it needs revision and then start talking about each part of the procedure.

      If he wasn’t a micromanager before and he’s doing this now, something must have changed.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        He’s always been a micromanager, and one person made one mistake, so now he’s in mega-CYA mode. We already have accountability in a logbook so this is just him being dumb. The process is kinda long and fiddly due to crappy software, so I usually write my own checklist by hand so I can cross things off.

        My plan is to write up my checklist and suggest we use it instead. That way at least it’s a good checklist instead of a bad checklist. He’s still absurd for wanting us to print out the paper, sign it, and email it to him. Thanks for the commiseration :)

  134. Libray Ethics 101*

    I work for a libray that has a friends of the library group that raises money and then donates is back for library programs. Recently the library powers that be have us, the library staff – government employees- working on a project that is supposed to assist the friends in raising money.

    Is this sketchy, or am I being overly fastidious? The reason it bothers me is twofold. 1) we are paying Jane $13 and hour to do as task that might raise $5 for our organization 2) it’s essentially like Jane is now being paid by the government to do something that benefits an outside entity. That entity eventually donates that money back to the library, but still.

    Should I bring this up to manager, or let it go?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      So to clarify – you, the library employee, are being asked to do work for the non-profit (I’m assuming) group that raises money for the library, as part of your job? Is this for a one-off event, or more a ‘help them with their filing’ sort of thing?
      If there’s a specific fund raising event that’s being put on by the Friends group, on behalf of your library, I feel like it’s appropriate for you guys to help them out. That’s more along the lines of contracting an outside organization (the Friends) to put on a benefit, and sending along an employee to help them set up or be a representative.
      If it’s more like the library is lending you out for administrative or basic work unrelated to your library, that’s a little iffier, especially if the library staff is paid for by the government.

      1. LibraRy Ethics 101*

        The work we are being asked to do is totally unrelated to our jobs. It’s something akin to a bakesale where we’d be doing all the baking and all the selling, but they would get proceeds. Those proceeds would then be donated back to us. They wouldn’t really be involved at all.

    2. LibraryBug*

      Hm, I’ve never worked for a library where the Friends were paid by the library. We weren’t even really supposed to help them set up the tables for the book sales. I don’t know what the “rules” are but I know we kept it as separate as possible to avoid any issues like this.

      1. Temperance*

        The Friends aren’t paid by the library. The library is paying Jane $13/hour, and she’s been utilized by the Friends to do something that will raise less in funds than her current pay rate.

    3. Canonical23*

      It’s not illegal or sketchy if political issues are not involved. Public libraries that I’ve worked at sold earbuds and charged overdue fees and that money went back into supporting the library. I have friends/connections that work at smaller libraries that don’t have a Friends group – they fund raise themselves. The reason that FoL groups exist are mainly so that a 501(c)3 organization can exist to raise money for libraries – as a government entity, you aren’t a non-profit org.

      Honestly, I don’t see it as any different from Jane spending a certain amount of hours at her desk writing a grant to get money for a particular program at the library. Or, think of it this way – my partner works in city government as an assistant for the fire department. There are tons of different fundraisers that the firefighters host to raise money for the fire house.

      /However/, it becomes dicey when government/library employees engage in political action to support the library – I’ve worked at two different libraries that were looking to pass a tax levy that increased the amount of property tax we received as revenue. We could not, on the clock, advocate for people to vote for it as that would mean the government was paying us money to “politick.”

      1. Temperance*

        Disagree. There are many tax reasons why a nonprofit “Friends of the Library” group is a separate legal entity. Even if the money is benefiting the library in the end, the nonprofit is a separate entity. That’s a misuse of taxpayer funds.

        This is very, very different from Jane applying for a grant directly to benefit the library, while in the course of her duties. This is very different from firefighters raising money, directly, to benefit the firehouse. Some fundraising is expected in those roles.

    4. Inspector Spacetime*

      This is indeed weird, but I don’t know about unethical. I’m not sure that I would say anything to the higher ups. I can’t tell if you personally are expected to participate or not. If you are and it really bothers you, I think that day would be an ideal candidate for calling in sick.

    5. Chaordic One*

      I wouldn’t say it was unethical. In years past when I belonged to a Friends of the Library group the Friends worked together with library staff for various fundraising activities. There were usually a couple every year. There was a Dr. Seuss event every year that was very popular. One year they had a party to celebrate the finale of Downton Abbey where everyone dressed up and English tea and desserts were served. Every two or three years they have a murder mystery event. These are usually very successful financially adding several thousand dollars to the library budget. Frequently the money ended up being used for necessary (but unsexy) things that the general budget didn’t allow for. One year they bought a monitoring system for the fire sprinklers. Another year they spent money on rodent and insect control.

  135. Summer Peach*

    When and how do you give feedback about an intern you don’t work with?

    I’m a consultant with a handful of clients, but only one whose office I visit in person. They have a summer intern who is friendly and all, but seems to have some boundary issues that have gotten to the point where I feel like I need to say something. This is complicated by me not being an employee, for one. But layered on that is that their direct supervisor had an extremely terrible personal tragedy recently and is out of the office for the foreseeable future, only checking in periodically. The intern’s day to day is now being mostly overseen by the rest of their team. The manager over the intern’s manager is handling some things now, but this person is historically abysmal at handling these kinds of personnel things and I don’t want to involve them. So I’m not sure how to proceed.

    The issues with the intern aren’t egregious, but they’re not good. They’re also weird enough that I don’t know how to just say something to them directly, on top of the whole not actually being an employee or working with this intern in the first place. There have been a few persistent little things and now this week a couple of bigger ones, including me finding out that they had gone through the cabinet in which I keep my equipment when I wasn’t around, opening boxes and examining everything in there. It’s been things like this— I can’t say anything “in the moment” since there’s a delay, and I’m also pretty sure they don’t want me to have any talks with their interns as an outside person anyway. What to do?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      At a minimum, you can say, “Hey, could you ask Jane not to go through the cabinet where I keep my equipment? She opened boxes and examined everything in there, and I’d really rather she not do that — and thought it might be something you’d want to know about too.”

      Whether or not to mention the others really depends on what the issues are. In general, I’d default to not giving feedback on an intern in an office you don’t yourself work for, unless it’s directly affecting you.

      1. Summer Peach*

        Oh they are things that directly affect me and my work. If they weren’t, I wouldn’t even consider getting involved. Most real examples would be too identifying, but say you came into this business one day and the intern has reorganized the workspace that you’re supposed to be in. This required breaking down parts of your setup, so to get to work you have to re-set up some of your equipment, run cables, etc. Huge waste of time and effort.

        Intern says they thought they were being helpful, because they had received feedback about their own space, and they got concerned that yours also needed to be modified. They didn’t ask anyone (AFAIK, since literally anyone would have been able to tell them why my setup is different from theirs), they just did it.

        And even that, as a one-off, I wouldn’t sweat too much. But it sort of feels like the weirdness with this intern has escalated a lot, and I wish I had nipped it in the bud months ago but just saying something gentle about their invasiveness early on. But those early things were just annoying, not disruptive, so I just ignored them as not important. Now it’s become enough of an escalating pattern that I’m wondering if they will keep getting worse and cause me more or bigger problems later.

  137. AnonyMs*

    A bit late post, but perhaps folks will have post-lunch insight.
    I recently went from a very crisis-driven eternally understaffed position to something far more calm and long-term project oriented, and am having a lot of trouble navigating both my focus and imposter syndrome. I know I’m doing less work than I used to, but I used to be overworked to insanity and the only person available. However, I’m finding it hard to stay focused on longer term projects and catch my attention drifting if there isn’t a deadline looming.
    How do I figure out what level of throughput is appropriate? I don’t want my boss to be disappointed at my work ethic (and they don’t seem to be – I’ve been getting great reviews so far) but at the same time, I feel like I’m eternally slacking because my motivation all seems to be tied into ‘is it on fire? if no, then not a priority’.
    tl;dr – How do I figure out how to be more focused when there aren’t looming crises to motivate me?

    1. H.C.*

      If possible, can you break up the project into smaller incremental pieces? Then that’d give you a lot of smaller deadlines to meet along the way, instead of one big one right at the end. This approachable may be easier for your co-workers too, if they have to provide input or feedback into your projects (so they have more time to review smaller pieces, rather than one big document within 24 hours – for example).

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Agree with H.C. about having smaller increments or phases to keep you on track. Making a to-do list each day really helps me with this too. The time pressure isn’t there but I feel a similar satisfaction with a race to the bottom of the list.

      I’ve struggled with this issue too and one thing I’ve been working on this year is reminding myself that attention and focus are a skill that you can practice and improve. You and I developed the skills to succeed in a frenetic and fast-paced environment, but a different environment requires a different set of skills. So, I’ve been practicing paying attention by trying not to do the combo watch TV/play phone games thing as much, creating a set of to-do items each day and then just forcing myself to do them, etc. For sure, attention isn’t unlimited, but we can build up endurance for longer stints of dedicated focus.

      One other thing: you might be burnt out from working in such a busy place and just need a few weeks of not being productive at all to get back on track. If that might be the case make sure to give yourself a little time to zone out and not get things done. I’ve often found that as soon as I take a break from a really busy time, I immediately get a cold and sleep for about three days :) So let yourself rest and reset too!

    3. Thlayli*

      Two ways to tackle this – first way is like others have said Make a plan, break it down, set yourself interim targets and try to reach them. Second thing to do is set yourself targets for each day in terms of time spent working. Give yourself a minimum amount of time to spend on the actual project (as opposed to filing, chatting, checking emails, training etc.

      If you keep putting in the hours and hitting the interim goals you’ll be fine.

  138. TechSouth*

    IT people: Tips for landing a job outside of support?

    I had a “my work is a toxic wasteland” wake-up call last week: co-worker “John” screamed at co-worker “Sally” for quote “causing them more work” and was brushed aside by management as “Oh, that’s just John!” This, plus a lot of other normalized toxic BS has reignited my search for new employment.

    I’ve been in the IT field professionally (w/ degree) for 4 years and all of my titles have fallen under the category of Support, whether desktop support or systems support. My first IT job out of college was titled a HelpDesk Analyst I but my actual job duties consisted of Level II/III support and management of my department once my skillset was evaluated. Currently I’m a Support Specialist II and spend most of my time wrangling/managing my department, evaluating the infrastructure and ordering necessary equipment for new projects and locations, and being the go-to person for intern/peer support questions. Support is such a thankless role and I’d like to break out into software development or ANYTHING else in IT. I have previous experience in web development and graphics design before I got my degree but found myself bored or frustrated. I had to deal with customers who didn’t know what they wanted but expected me to figure it out for them without giving any input on whether I was going in the right directoin…my parents being the worst offenders. :)

    I’m learning Python, Java, and C# on my own time outside of work but I’ll never gain the relevant resume experience in my current job and don’t think I can stick it out a few more years until I’m totally fluent. Any suggestions from IT people on which direction I should head in to get out of Support Nightmare? If anyone else had similar experiences, how did you handle it?

    1. wayward*

      If development is what you want to do, consider finding open source projects you like and contributing to them.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      How locked down are you at your job? Is there a chance to build small internal projects? Things like writing a mini app to help manage the timeline on warranty / ordering. Automate the share audits, put together a query tool that lets you find out the owners of file shares, etc. Assuming you’re not spinning up new servers or doing things you shouldn’t with the code, you may not need to get managerial approval for every project.
      Otherwise, I’d suggest contract work – look for freelance work that you can complete remotely and include that as an independent contractor entry on your resume, running parallel with your current job. Open source and volunteer work can be done this way as well, but it needs to be pretty major to get listed and seem legit.

    3. Brownie*

      There’s development and coding work, but there’s also things like system administration, network administration, database administration, and IT project management out there. My path out of support/help desk was into DBA work (if you’re going that way pick one vendor to specialize in) and now I only do support work if someone needs help troubleshooting why they can’t get into the database and it’s infrequent enough that it’s less of an annoyance and more of a change of pace for a few minutes. Honestly, if you have the patience and look-it-up problem solving abilities needed in working help desks then that’s a huge skill for any other IT job, especially ones at the starting level.

      1. Grapey*

        +1. Also, DBAs are in VERY short supply in my VERY tech oriented area of the world. Everyone makes data, and everyone wants to look at cleaned pretty visualizations of data, but nobody wants to manage it.

        1. Brownie*

          Data management is a subset of DBA work, like performance tuning, and is a really good specialization to go into. There’s so much marketing out there that the ability to say “no, look, you only have 30 people accessing the data and it’s only 500GB of that, you don’t need anything labeled for big data” is in high demand. It saves companies money and resources and that’s before even getting into the minutia of cloud vs on-site servers and so on.

          Hrm, hadn’t thought of it before, but someone who isn’t a vendor marketer who can evaluate a company’s IT needs vs wants and how it all fits into a budget would be indispensable to so many companies, especially since it involves the kind of Jack-of-all-trades skill sets that working help desk and support positions tend to build.

  139. Tired Retail Worker*

    I currently work in retail (I work multiple positions–one involves counting money) but I would love to get an entry level accounting position (AR/AP clerk). I have a bachelor’s degree in economics and I have a certificate in accounting. I am also a registered tax preparer but have only had experience doing a few individual tax returns. Does anyone think I have a real chance at getting into accounting with a background like mine? I understand that anything is possible but I am wondering if it is more typical for someone to transition into accounting if they have a different background, such as being an administrative assistant. Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      The degree is going to help a LOT. I worked retail, then bank teller, then went to accounting assistant. I didn’t have a degree, just 2 years towards a BS in accounting. AP is going to be easier to get into than AR (in my experience), but it also pays less. I’d try going through a temp agency that specializes in accounting placements if you have one. If you don’t, you’ll just have to keep applying, and be sure to find the advice on here to write an awesome cover letter that points out skills and knowledge that you have.

    2. princesswings*

      I think you would have a good chance. I just hired someone for a slightly higher- level accounting position whose degree was in ag business management but who has several years of experience in AR/AP through temp and contract work.

  140. Ditzy Lawyer*

    I am in the process to relocating to another city. I had an interview for a 9 month contract position last week. I should know by next week if I am the successful candidate. I also have an interview for a permanent position two weeks from now.

    Let’s say I get the 9 month position, how do I handle it? Should I accept it, interview for the permanent position, and wait for the result? If I am successful for the permanent position, would it be terribly bad if I were to call the 9 month position back and decline it “due to a change in circumstances”?

    Priority #1 is relocating to new city but I would also prefer the permanent position over the 9 month contract. The two jobs are with the same government but different ministries (one is law and one is non-law).

    1. Red Reader*

      That’s exactly what I did. I was getting ready to start a contract position, a week beforehand I got an offer for a permanent position with a different organization. Called up the recruiter handling the contract position, “Sorry, I just can’t turn down a permanent position for a temporary one,” and she was like “No, absolutely, best wishes!” No problems.

      1. Ditzy Lawyer*

        Oh good! Thanks for responding. It’s always nice to know someone else has done what I plan to do (if I am so lucky).

  141. Duffman*

    I interviewed for a job earlier this week, but later that night my grandmother passed away.

    The job called back (and left a voicemail asking me to call back) while we were in the middle of trying to make arrangements and – honestly – I didn’t want to cry on the phone to them and assumed that waiting until the end of the day would be okay to return the call. Well, I did (and explained that I had a family emergency and apologized for taking so long to return the call) and now it’s been two days and they haven’t called back.

    I honestly don’t know what to think.

    1. SoCalHR*

      You called back same day? that is not unreasonable (to me) at all. People have lives and jobs… You could follow up on Monday if you haven’t heard back by then.

    2. Antilles*

      Don’t think anything about it.
      Having to wait until the end of the day to return a voice mail is so common and within reasonable norms that they almost certainly didn’t even notice it, much less care. Frankly, it’s so normal that I’m honestly not even sure you needed an explanation – it doesn’t hurt that you did, but you probably would have been fine with just a simple “Sorry, I missed your call a couple hours ago” and leaving it at that.
      I also wouldn’t worry too much about the fact they haven’t called back yet – it’s possible they’re busy on their end or he took a couple days off or they’re trying to arrange paperwork or a million other explanations which have nothing to do with you.

    3. EA in CA*

      It’s also the middle of summer. They could have take a few days off ahead of the weekend. I’d wait until Monday or even Tuesday.

  142. Guitar Hero*

    I am really interested in a professional development course. It’s tangentially aligned with my current role, but would actually be very effective in helping me grow in the future (potentially out of my area of expertise now, into a type of role we don’t even have now but potentially could in the future).

    I asked my supervisor, and she is open to helping me pay for it if I compile supporting documents, but I’m feeling conflicted on whether I should really go for it or just pay for it myself. It’d be great if they helped with the costs, but if they did, how long would I be obligated to stay there after they footed the bill?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      Well you may want to check if there’s a policy. Before I was able to take my last training, I had to pay something that I would pay the company back if I left in the following year.

      In terms of how long are you obligated, outside of a policy? I would say that you should do your best to make the expense worth it for the company, but also recognize that this is considered part of your compensation. I would say ideally 6 months at a minimum unless there’s another policy in place, but you have to do what’s best for you.

  143. Last Day Procrastinator*

    There was an all-company mandatory management talk on my last day at Old Job, and it was jaw-dropping. The speaker explained to us that the only effective way to manage a team was to make sure they “shared the same fate” (i.e. group rewards/punishments) and tell them to resolve all their issues with each other. If one of your reports is having an issue with a teammate, they shouldn’t bring it up to you; they should do the brave thing and bring it up with their teammate at an all-team meeting so the whole team can come up with ways to solve the issue (e.g. firing one of the employees). Bringing up issues in front of the whole team, he explained, was the best way to build trust.

    Fortunately, my Old Company rarely makes any changes in response to these mandatory talks, but I’m still thanking my lucky stars I’m getting out now.

    1. RVA Cat*

      Do they pass around a conch shell to determine who gets to talk at these all-team meetings…?

      1. Last Day Procrastinator*

        I wish; we’d get significantly better speakers (and fewer rich old white guys) if we chose people internally. I’m pretty sure they just randomly invite anyone who’s written a book or given a PowerPoint presentation about any business topic.

        Also, the most recent speaker was FAR from the worst we’ve had. Our third worst speaker explained how to “influence” (i.e. trick or coerce) people into doing what you want, and Old Company actually had to issue a “mandatory talk does not necessarily represent our views” disclaimer.

        Second-worst speaker was the classist jerk who told us to privately write down 3 work and 3 non-work interpersonal problems on a sheet of paper, then chose random people and forced them to read them out loud in front of the whole company. He used these spectacularly personal details to try to sort us into one of indistinguishable twelve personality types (which he had invented) which should from there on out govern all of our interpersonal interactions.

        The worst speaker was the older man whose speech was basically “Salespeople are Terrible: A Case Study”. Here’s a time I made ten thousand dollars selling a hospital a product that didn’t exist! I’m talking about something with “mini” in the name, so here’s a slide of a woman’s legs wearing a miniskirt! Here’s a picture of me and the other salesmen from 40 years ago, plus a female colleague we all slept with! Are salespeople racist? Let me answer your question by putting on an Afro wig and talking about Jewish lawyers in a stereotyped way!

        (Note that the worst speaker did NOT get any type of “this isn’t what our company stands for” disclaimer and the talk is still available for viewing, despite my complaints to my manager, my grand manager, the person who invited the speaker and HR.)

    2. Quill*

      Ugh. Gives me flashbacks to middle school. “One of you made a mess so everyone will be punished with complete silence during lunch / study hall!”

      … And people wonder how middle and high schoolers get their issues with authority…

    3. Antilles*

      If one of your reports is having an issue with a teammate, they shouldn’t bring it up to you; they should do the brave thing and bring it up with their teammate at an all-team meeting so the whole team can come up with ways to solve the issue (e.g. firing one of the employees).
      My issue is with pay. Since we’re supposed to resolve the issue amongst ourselves without management involvement, my suggestion is that every team member should all be given a 970% increase in pay. Do any team members have an issue with this? Nope? Awesome!
      I really appreciate management’s willingness to let us solve this issue ourselves.

    4. Kethlynn*

      So, I work at this same company (there’s a few of us on here! ), and your post is not what the speaker said. I agree that not all of his points were the most valuable, and most require a lot more critical thinking than slapping a bullet point on a process.

      “they should do the brave thing and bring it up with their teammate at an all-team meeting so the whole team can come up with ways to solve the issue (e.g. firing one of the employees).” Is also explicitly what he said NOT to do. Taking his slides at face value is misleading, but this post is wildly inaccurate.

      (Best speaker by far was the Getting Things Done. Loved that one! )

      1. Last Day Procrastinator*

        Thanks for your response, Kethlynn. I freely admit I was leaving out a lot of the speaker’s points and nuance, but I tried to avoid inaccuracies. I’m pretty certain he explicitly stated that the best way to handle something like a performance issue was to bring it up in front of “everyone affected” so the team could brainstorm solutions.

        I guess he didn’t actually suggest firing anyone, but if I recall correctly the list of possible solutions he gave in his “can’t coldcall because of fear of rejection” example were: quit the company; change roles; have someone else take over that part of his job; or get coaching. I remember it pretty clearly because I thought receiving “quit the company” as a suggestion would have made my “fear of separation” skyrocket.

  144. Hot Mess*

    I’ve started seeing a therapist, but the only appointment slot she has available is in the middle of the day. I can take the time off, but…

    1. I’m a crier. Anyone have tips for coming back to the office and not looking like I’ve been sobbing on a couch for 50 minutes? I wear makeup but my mascara isn’t waterproof.

    2. What should I say to my boss about the mysterious weekly lunchtime appointment? She won’t ask, especially if I imply that it’s a medical appointment, but I’m a talker and would feel awkward without giving an explanation. Especially since…

    3. I’ve made some REALLY bone-headed mistakes lately. I lost track of a live check (it was with a department head waiting for the invoice to be approved, and he forgot it for a month), I entered a reimbursement invoice that hadn’t been approved and turned out to have some odd math (that I didn’t catch), and I entered the wrong address for a vendor so we mailed two checks to the wrong place (might not have been my fault, but idk who else could’ve entered the vendor). Those have all needed my boss to step in and clean up the mess, and all came out within the last few days… just in time for my performance review next week. So, I’d like to be able to say that I realize there’s a problem and I’m taking concrete steps to work on it, coughcough weekly appointments. Would that be appropriate or helpful? (I’m also starting to double-check my work, but I feel pretty paranoid about all these slip-ups – I thought I WAS being careful!)

    1. Jessen*

      As far as the first one – portable face wipes! I’ve found a type that are dry and you get them wet and then use them to tidy up. They can be an absolute wonder when you just need to touch up a little bit of makeup. I also sometimes carry just enough makeup to look “done” if I need to – a portable makeup brush set and my eyeshadow and lipstick for the day. That way I can do a 3min touchup and look pretty presentable.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      I think that you should definitely let your boss know that you realize there’s a problem, etc. Your language sound good to me.

      I agree with Jessen. Bring some makeup and touch up in the car afterward. The only problem is the red eyes but hopefully that should fade by the time you get back to the office. I cry at almost every therapy appointment, so I get the frustration, haha.

      1. Not All Who Wander*

        I actually bought one of white eyeliners that is designed for use on your lower eyelid above (inside?) the eyelashes (does that make sense? I have no idea what that is called) It creeped me out at first to use it because it doesn’t seem like makeup should go there (I’m not someone who wears a lot of makeup in the first place) but I got over it quickly. You would not believe how much difference it makes for either covering signs of crying since that is the most visible red area or for making your eyes look more open when you’re exhausted.

        I also keep a couple ice packs in the cooler in the car & put them on my face/eyes for a few minutes before I even leave the therapist’s parking lot…not only does it help with soothing the redness/swelling, I find it helps with the headache I have a tendency to get from crying.

        1. Alianora*

          It’s called the waterline. Using eyeliner at the base of the eyelashes (top and bottom) is called tightlining.

    3. Never*

      1. Can you take an extra 5 minutes and go for a walk, grab a coffee, etc.?

      2. Nothing. You don’t need to provide an explanation.

    4. Argh!*

      You can’t unring that bell if your supervisor has something against therapy.

      I would wait until after the performance review to say anything, and I probably wouldn’t say anything even then. I would promise to work on methods of keeping track of things, and then after you’ve improved, your boss can pat herself on the back for what a wonderful job she did coaching you. Win-win!

  145. Not a Real Giraffe*

    A little late in posting today, but would love your thoughts on what you’d do or how you’d prepare:

    I started a new job about 6 weeks ago. It was a major step up in my career. The person in this role before me lasted about a year before he got fired. The person before him also last about a year, though I’m not sure if he left on his own accord or was also fired. My boss has a history of giving new hires a honeymoon period where he is very complimentary and forgiving of small mistakes, and then suddenly around the 6-9 month mark, changes tune. My sense is that once you are on his bad side, it’s hard to get back into his good graces.

    I can perform under these conditions; I have a strong ability to stay on someone’s good side and I’m good at what I do. But eventually, I am sure our relationship will sour. I am fully aware that in 9 months, I might need to seriously job hunt.

    So, armed with that knowledge, how would you prepare? What would you do in the meantime? I’d like to keep the job if I can; it’s a great company and I get to do cool work. How would you work to cultivate the honeymoon phase for as long as possible?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Have you asked for specifics on what happened to the previous folks in the job? If you can pinpoint the areas where they were lacking, that could help guide you for how to better prepare.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        I know a couple of the specifics and they are fortunately areas in which I excel or at least know to focus on (responsiveness, organization skills, etc.) but I do think part of it was personality clash, which of course I can do nothing about.

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      I think instead of “cultivating the honeymoon phase for as long as possible”, I’d probably try to get as much honest feedback as I possibly could to make improvements now so that if/when he changes his tune, there’s less for him to complain about. Essentially, I would work to lessen the impact of when he sees the honeymoon period ending because you’ve already fixed whatever mistakes he would be pointing to. Does that make sense?

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        This is a good tactic and honestly my preferred way of being managed anyway. When I interviewed, I was pretty direct about wanting to avoid making the same mistakes the previous person did so I think regular, direct feedback ties in here well.

        1. Tableau Wizard*

          You may just have to pull for more feedback that he’s regularly be giving to someone still new. Think about what scripts would work best for him specifically.

          For example, after getting positive feedback about a deliverable: “I’m so glad this met your expectations. If it were to be even better, what could I do differently next time?”

    3. Argh!*

      Learn everything you possibly can while you’re there. Then, after a year, you have the choice of possibly being promoted, or landing on your feet if you get fired.

  146. Swinburne*

    Long time reader, first time commenter. Can I please get a little advice? I am applying for a job at an ad agency that has recently won a client I serviced for 3 years at a previous agency. They won the business just recently (months since I left my previous) and I had nothing to do with the acquisition. Is it to canny to leverage my history with this client in my application/interviews? My knowledge of their business would be an asset, but I don’t want it to look “conniving” or have my last employer raise their eyebrows. Am I concerned about nothing?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If you’re 100% positive that the company would speak well about your prior relationship, I think it would make sense to mention your experience with them in your cover letter along with mentioning other clients that you supported.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think it’s okay to mention as long as you don’t put a huge amount of emphasis on it. Like, just have it on your resume, bring it up in your cover letter, and then be open to questions. But you don’t need to mention them at every turn, or seem overly focused on that one client.

      I have interviewed people who have had this type of experience before, and the ones that made me balk put undue focus on the connection, like that was the only reason I should hire them. They clearly had experience elsewhere they could have talked about, but were so pushy about the connection they made it seem like that’s all that mattered. But for those that didn’t do that, it was totally fine to mention it, and I saw it as an asset.

    4. Swinburne*

      Thanks everyone. I also found out that a friend of worked with the hiring manager, so I have lots of interesting ins and I don’t feel like I have to rely on this one.

  147. Doesn't matter*

    I came in this morning and overheard one of my direct reports talking to a few other members of staff–all junior to them and one brand-new person. They were complaining loudly about a (very successful) client dinner that we had a few weekends ago. There were some logistical challenges because of a new venue and more guests than expected. This person made it sound like the event was an unmitigated disaster and poorly put together (the phrase “cheap cruise ship decorations”) was used.

    They had nothing to do with the logistics of the event but ironically, I was disappointed with their performance of their duties at the actual event. They are in sales role and supposed to be “working the room” and even had a target list of 30- 40 people. They only talked to a handful of clients, mostly people they already knew, and only a few people on their target list. I made my expectations clear going into the event. I’ve talked to my supervisor about this person’s performance but Boss’s style of management is to “focus on the positive” and that basically means that if I’m giving constructive criticism I’m “micromanaging” and coming down too hard on people.

    My direct report has only been on staff for a few months and has already had a lot of problems with absenteeism. I’m not sure if this is question or just a vent; how would you approach this situation with the employee?

    1. Argh!*

      Most places have reviews at 30, 60 and 90 days, and the employee is considered on probation during that time. They can be terminated at any point.

      It sounds like this was a hiring mistake, and terminating would do both of you a favor.

      1. Doesn't matter*

        The employee is approx. halfway through the probation period. I’m not opposed to terminating but my boss is. Boss has been known to let underperformers languish for YEARS. When I came to my boss with my concerns they said I needed to focus on what employee was doing well, not poorly, and change the job description to focus on their strengths.

        1. WellRed*

          Can you meet with the employee to express your concerns and let them know you need to see immediate improvement or this might not work out? I mean, will she even know your bosses ridiculous stance.

    2. Mazzy*

      Maybe they did think the event was poorly done, so were embarrassed to then pitch to clients. I don’t know the details, but for example, if you ordered cheap liquor, maybe they felt bad then pitching to wealthy clients because it looked like you were being cheap. I don’t know, that’s just an example that I could see happening.

      Either way, I’d use this as an opportunity to teach the reps to be more outgoing and assertive and confident, because they will be in other situations they perceive as bad, and will need to help turn them around – not complain about them.

      1. Doesn't matter*

        The event was held at an iconic location in my city and catered by a celebrity chef. While there were some logistical bumps, the feedback from our guests was uniformly positive. I do think your advice is helpful–thank you!

        1. SoCalHR*

          Since the direct report is new, you can use this as an opportunity to discuss the “Culture” you’d like him to emulate in the office, which may include not focusing on the negatives of an event, especially in an unofficial context.

  148. Jessen*

    BRAIN WEASELS ACTIVATE!

    Ok, seriously, I signed up for some classes in the fall. And I now have a running mental list of everything that could possibly go wrong, all of which ends in me losing my job and getting sick and having to move back in with my parents. (Yes, moving back in with my parents would be legitimately very bad, it’s the rest of the mental landslide that’s being an issue.)

    Anyone got any good chew blocks or something for weasel distraction?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I worked as an academic counselor for non traditional students for a while.

      The best advice I can give you is to be organized. Keep a calendar and mark all of your assignment due dates as soon as you get the syllabus so you aren’t blindsided by anything. Set a routine for yourself of when you’re going to do your school work and stick to it. Indulge in a fun planner or something if you enjoy that kind of thing.

      1. Jessen*

        I’m really not looking for advice on how to manage school right now, so much as just general – how do you manage when your brain is convinced you’re going to fail?

        Last time I was in school I ended up having a major mental health breakdown. It took about 2-3 years to find an effective treatment, with a significant number of the attempts in the meantime resulting in a massive downward spiral, suicidal ideation, and generally being non-functional. All attempts at therapy and the majority of medications significantly worsened my condition. (I still have nightmares about my experiences with therapy.) About the only way I made it through was that a local friend let me stay in his spare room. If I’d had to go live with my parents, I seriously doubt I’d have ever recovered.

        I don’t have that support this time around. I don’t have any particular reason to believe that breakdown was related to schoolwork specifically, and I know I have a lot better coping skills. My experiences with graduate school lead me to believe that I should be able to manage online classes – while our classes weren’t online, it was a significantly more self-driven environment. I don’t see any particular reason to believe that attending school is going to worsen the risk of issues, and I do know that long-term my ability to handle things is going to be greatly improved by a job where I can actually save money and get a functional insurance plan. A degree should get me much closer to that. I also do have some idea of what class of medications actually work on me if I need them again (therapy is still not an option).

        But some part of my brain is convinced that spending time and money is going to invite another massive breakdown, and this time I won’t have anywhere safe to go.

        1. Tableau Wizard*

          I’m not sure I have any great advice, but I will say that you sound incredibly self-aware and thoughtful about this decision and it’s impact on your life. That’s pretty huge and I bet you’ve come a long way from the first time you tried to do all of this.

          Self doubt is real and it is powerful, but you are a strong person who has been through a lot. Don’t forget that!

        2. anonymoushiker*

          As a fellow sufferer of anxiety/depression/brain weasels, i understand. Instead of letting the anxiety get to you, could you work on creating a safety plan for yourself? (You say you don’t have a safe place to go right now, would be able to take steps towards developing such a safe place?) Basically, find things to do that are actionable and directly countering any anxiety and worry you have about the unknowns?

          1. Jessen*

            By “wouldn’t have a safe place to go, ” I don’t mean that I’m not in a safe place right now. I mean that said safe place requires knowing that I can pay my own bills and still basically manage to eat and sleep and wash clean underwear and all that. And I have had health problems in the past where I couldn’t do all that and I needed someone else to help me.

            There’s not a lot of good options for that sort of thing, unfortunately. There are some places that try to help but they have extremely limited funds. And I’ve generally found if your family is willing to help, people don’t really accept reasons why you might not want to accept that very well – I think it’s one of those things that can be hard for people to understand.

            1. anonymoushiker*

              I don’t think any of that negates what i said though? I wasn’t assuming you were in an unsafe spot, but if it’s something you’re worried about, is there something about planning and taking steps that you have control over that might help reduce the anxiety?

              1. Jessen*

                Unfortunately, I haven’t really found much of any steps that I could take.

                The reality in this country is that there’s not a lot of protections if you do get sick. You can either rely on someone else, or you can save up enough money to handle it yourself. Disability insurance helps, but you’d still need a lot of savings. And I’m simply not in a position to get those savings unless I can get a significantly better job, which requires a degree. Add in how horribly I react to any attempt at treatment and you do have a situation that could turn bad very fast. It’s just that the only way to get out of that situation is to get a better job, and that requires a degree.

    2. anonagain*

      Steven Hayes, (one of?) the originator(s) of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, has a TEDx talk called Mental Brakes to Avoid Mental Breaks. (I don’t think you’re going to have a mental break or need to do anything in particular to avoid one.)

      It has been quite some time since I watched it, so I can’t vouch for the particulars. I have had success with some of the strategies for dealing with intrusive or negative thoughts. I pulled up my notes from it, though it is not very long and I think it is worth watching to understand the details/rationale. Here are some of the strategies:

      – Give your mind a name
      – Sing the thought (e.g. to tune of happy birthday)
      -Make use of the Titchner effect: repeat the thought out loud, quickly, a bunch of times (for 30 seconds)
      – Say the thought in a different voice
      -Put difficult thoughts on a screensaver
      -Picture yourself as a child in your childhood voice saying those thoughts

      -Let your mind do what it’s doing and watch with dispassionate curiosity

      I have found these suggestions helpful, because they are mostly very concrete and they are about getting some emotional distance from the thought rather than trying to change it. I have spent a lot of time trying approaches that involve countering negative thoughts with positive ones, trying to out-logic my reflexive worries, and so on. That hasn’t ever worked for me.

      Something like, “Thanks for the update, Weas. How’s the family?” can be more effective in taking the power out of the thought for me. (I don’t use the terminology of brain weasels myself, but in that case, David Attenborough-style narration seems like a pretty amusing way of dispassionately observing. “Here we see the lesser brain weasel in its native habitat. His cache of overblown anxieties has been discovered. Watch, now, as he scurries about, dispersing the worry seeds one by one.” etc.)

      I hope you find a strategy that works for you. Either way, have a great semester!

  149. MrsMurphy*

    Not so much advice needed as inviting everyone to laugh at my folly: I kind of lost it at work today. My junior manager (my age and pretty informal) can be terribly unorganized and kept giving me work and „advice“ on hoe to do each (routine) task, keeping me three hours late in the office (I‘m NOT being paid by the hour) and when he couldn‘t take a hint, I finally told him (not quite yelling, but getting there) that „I‘m counting to 5 and if you‘re still here than so help me God you‘ll be sorry“. Uh, he left.

    Cue department head sticking his head into my office, having overheard, to ask me if he needs to have a word with junior manager. I was still fuming and replied „no, thanks all the same, one of these days I‘ll just slap some sense into him.“

    Department head, thankfully, gave me his approval while laughing and left.

    Oops.

    That‘ll be a fun conversation with my manager on Monday!

  150. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Any AAM lawyers, bankers, credit card folks, etc able to offer any advice?

    My future SIL found out late last night that the shop where she ordered her bridal gown is filing for bankruptcy/going out of business. She put down a deposit of half the cost of the dress. What’s the best way for her to go about getting this money back? I suggested she reach out to her bank/credit card company, but then I realized some of you might have better suggestions.

    1. CAA*

      She needs to find out:
      1) what is the shop’s timeline for reimbursing deposits
      2) what is her credit card company’s timeline for disputing a charge

      She should give the shop a chance to do the right thing as long as they can do it before the dispute deadline. If they miss their date, or their date is later than the dispute deadline, file a dispute.

      2. miyeritari*

        Seconding this. As a person who handles disputes for my company, disputing the payment will mean it will take a LONG time to get back to you, even if you win. I believe disputed payments are locked for 90 days in our process, and even then sometimes more. So if your goal is to get the money back quick, see if the store will give you a shorter timeline. If they won’t, go the dispute process.

    2. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      Oof. Was there a contract, any terms on the invoice or receipt, any sort of indicator of what gets paid and when? Has she tried talking to the shop? (Or is this that salon in Chicago that has gone mum??) Check those things first before going any other route.
      Did she pay with a credit card? If so, she might be able to dispute the transaction and get the money back after an investigation. But the credit card company will likely want to make sure she TRIED to get money from the shop first.
      You may end up in a situation where you are one in a line of people who are trying to get paid from the liquidation of the business, and the court will determine the priority in which people get paid.

      1. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

        Not legal advice, yadda yadda. Just perspective from someone with a bit of bankruptcy insight :)

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        This is very helpful, thank you!

        I don’t know if she’s tried to reach out yet. She found out via the news that this was a thing, so I will encourage her to try and contact them to see what their plans are before taking any other action.

    3. Antilles*

      My wife actually encountered a similar thing when she was looking for her dress – one of the shops she visited had already announced they were closing a few months later.
      Bridal shops often start the process of making the gown upon receiving your deposit. So it’s entirely possible that since they’ve already started that process, they’ll finish making it for you, but it’ll basically be delivered “as is” – any fittings, alterations, changes, etc are all on you.

  151. Epsilon Delta*

    Two more weeks and then no more 2:00 AM code releases, no weekend/evening work, no being on call, and no early morning meetings! So excited.

  152. Anon for this*

    For an interview presentation, should I present the exciting topic I think they’re expecting, or the topic I think is most important for them, even if it’s less exciting?

    A hiring manager (friend/colleague) invited me to apply for an opening in their organisation. I have reason to believe I am the top-running candidate. First interview went very well and I’ve been invited to a second interview, in which I need to prepare a presentation (written/verbal) for a panel.

    My presentation relates to the emerging technologies for the department’s activities. The topic I think is most relevant is the least “sexy” to present (think privacy and ethics). The more research I do, the more I keep seeing this topic as an important part of emerging technologies and education. However, I think they’re expecting more exciting topics.

    So do I present on what I think is most important for them to consider, or do I find the sexiest technology and present that?

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      I think you should be true to yourself and what you think is most important for the company. There’s no real way you can know what they would prefer because you’re not a mind reader, and when you present on something that you care about, it makes for a better presentation.

      That’s just my two cents, though!

    3. JessicaTate*

      I’d suggest turn this into the hook into your presentation – contrasting what people tend to focus on in tech (shiny shiny) vs. why the other stuff is so important. It could underscore your expertise in a fun but serious way.

  153. Cobalt*

    Venting: Our company sent out a survey to all the employees about how management is doing, and it’s stirring up some resentments. At this company, it’s typical for someone with my level of experience to be a Senior Teapot Maker. I get consistently excellent performance reviews and praise for my work, and a fair amount of my work these days is on that level. But I’m still a Teapot Maker. I chalked this up to the fact that we didn’t have staff evaluations at the beginning of the year and anticipated that when we did have evaluations, I would be promoted, as is typical. But I’m getting tired of waiting, and I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to have a conversation with my manager. Now to script it out and make it happen.

    1. Argh!*

      Am I reading this right? You expect a promotion after less than a year? Is that normal at your Teapot company?

    2. Thlayli*

      Have you had ANY conversation with your manager about this? I would have asked about the evaluations in Feb is they were supposed to happen in Jan. the first step should be to simply ask when the evaluations are happening.

  154. Ali G*

    Who has a foot hammock for their work desk?
    Are they better than a regular foot rest? How do they attach to the desk?
    Pro’s cons?
    I really need a better solution to sitting crossed-legged. At least I work at home mostly or in a very casual office.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I have no suggestions, but I’m desperately curious. I sit cross-legged 85% of the time, and it’s horrific for my body.

    3. Anonymosity*

      I never tried one, but I got one of those padded cubes at Target and put it under my desk. I kept a small fleece blanket in it for when it was cold in the office.

  155. anon anonymouse*

    Has anyone ever worked in an extremely gossip-y office? If so, how did you survive? Where I’m at, *everything* is gossip- to when people arrive to someone not going to lunch, etc.

    1. Anon for this*

      Don’t have a whole lot of tips, but I can share an inspirational quote from a coworker at a very gossipy OldJob. When I first started working there, Other Coworker and I were both the oldest by 10-15 years, in a group of young professionals in their mid-20s – early 30s who loved partying and going out and having lunches together every day. First time I joined them for lunch, I was shocked by the amount and the vicious quality of gossip that continued throughout the entire lunch. Any of their peers who wasn’t at that lunch was fair game. A couple of months later, Other Coworker and I had to work during lunch, and everyone else left to go to lunch together. I said to Other Coworker, “you do realize that they are talking about us right now?” and he said “I used to work in a mental institution. I had patients say things about me to my face that people usually say behind your back. I got used to it, and now I guess I don’t care anymore about what anyone says. It really doesn’t matter”. It was so eye-opening to me that I started working on gradually developing that attitude of not caring. I shut down one or two conversations when they were being unnecessarily evil when talking about people that I liked, and otherwise kept to myself. Oddly enough, I made friends in that office over time. Still more odd, I’ve had people in that office confide in me about some pretty personal stuff. (Not so odd though, when you consider that anyone else would’ve blabbed within a day, and I still keep my mouth shut about some of those things ten years later.) In summary, I guess, I survived by, one, staying out of it; and two, finding the one or two people I could trust, so I’d have someone to rely on if I needed to. I guarantee you that, even in your office, there are probably a few people who hate the gossip as much as you do, and who can be trusted. Just takes a while to find them.

    2. Yep*

      Preach. When you find out let me know. I try to stay out of it, but am seen as standoffish so yeahhhh…. Ours is a small office, and the whole petri dish thing? Totally true…

    3. Gossip Free*

      It was really annoying at my last job, not so much at my current one. So either it’s because the office is mostly men, or I’m just not in the gossip loop which is fine by me since I work part-time doing a mostly full-time job so I don’t have a lot of time for standing around bullsh*tting anyway.

    4. Lucille2*

      For starters, don’t engage in the gossip. No good can come of this. There is a distinct difference between venting and gossiping. Know the difference, and be sure to never vent with the gossipers. The main reason it’s not safe to engage, besides being terribly unkind, is that gossipers turn on each other. It can turn Mean-Girl before you know it.

      One way I cope, is to understand why people gossip. Immaturity can be a factor, but it’s usually a tool for deflecting attention away from one’s own insecurities. Be confident in who you are and how you go about your business. It won’t stop people from gossiping about you, but it will prevent it from affecting you.

    5. Eight*

      Yes, my current workplace is very gossipy. My personal advice is to keep yourself as busy as possible – too busy to engage them much. We’re extremely overstaffed and all the idle time leads to gossip and unnecessary drama because people don’t seem to have much else to do. I’m not proud of how much of it I participate in, but I’m so bored while I’m there that I find myself getting pulled in before I even realize what’s happening because sometimes (often) it’s the most stimulating thing that’s happened all day. (I am looking for a new job.)

  156. Grayson*

    I had an interview this morning for a position that’s outside my current career field and into another. I’m hopeful that I’m offered the job. It’s an internal position within my current contracting company. *crosses fingers*

  157. anonymoushiker*

    Hi folks, Career track question: Right now I’m an operations/office manager, which feels very much administrative-tracking spending, making purchases, managing our lease schedule, supervising the front desk and our data person, and running some reports. I do implement some side processes with our direct service workers. My boss wants to promote me to director level (although I’m not really sure I’m doing director level work and it wouldn’t be a change in responsibilities). I’m not sure what level of pay increase would be but presumably up to the minimum salary band of director level.

    HOWEVER, I am interviewing for an internal position that is associate director level (lower pay band than the director but definitely higher than what I am now), but it would be a shift away from office admin feeling work and would involve some travel and being a high profile person in the organization in terms of getting our name out there. The role would be a mix of project managing implementation of a new software system for that department, training, & marketing the organization. I think it would be a good way to get out of the admin hole and widen my abilities to make another leap to upper management in a smaller organization in several years.

    I think my conundrum is that I’m really interested in the new role but if I stay, I’ll (probably) get a better salary jump. Has anyone had this type of situation? What did you do? How did it work out?

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      My gut instinct is to wonder if your boss guessed you might be interested in moving out of the department into that associate director role, and is preemptively bumping your title and salary to entice you to stay.

      If it were me, I’d take the associate director spot and diversify my skills/accomplishments even if the salary increase isn’t as high.

      1. anonymoushiker*

        Fortunately, I know it’s not *fully* related since it’s been in the works since well before the new job was posted, but I know one of the driving reasons is that I just completed a masters program and she really wants to keep me. (I would/will feel bad leaving since she’s a great boss in many respects, but I’m not clear how/where I could grow in this position)

    2. Clare*

      I’d also take the associate director spot. It might be less money right now, but if it allows you to increase your skill level then in the long run it could lead to more and better-paying opportunities.

  158. smol cinnamon roll*

    I’m in the supplemental insurance field as an agent and I just got the best news. Company Quack is not allowed to work in the city hall anymore. That’s mostly great news for us, however, some departments and thus some employees of the city has marked us like Company Quack. Besides wearing nametags with our company logo and our names, what else could me and my team do to improve morale other than being the most helpful insurance agents ever?

  159. NoodleMara*

    Is there any data entry jobs that are part time and have flexible hours AND are remote? I’m working a job that I really really enjoy but money is a little tight. (I’d rather have this job because it has incredible benefits in my field) I currently am a consultant for my previous job (more money but stress out the wazoo), where I have a certification that they need to write teapot plans for their customers. But it’s seasonal and right now I’m working less than 10 hours a month. I anticipate it will drop to nothing until maybe december, where it will pick back up. In the busiest, I’m doing around 40, maybe more.

    I’ve love to have another part time remote, flexible hours job but I know it’s kind of like a unicorn! Any ideas? I checked out flexjobs but they don’t seem to have anything that matches what I’m looking for. If it helps, I’m good at excel, taught myself access and I’m learning about databases right now. I’m already set up with a work computer and monitor because of my consulting.

    1. Effie, who gets to be herself*

      I worked in entertainment payroll and it could fit your specifications! Depends on the company. IME, they’ll try to squeeze as much work out of you as they can so if you were promised flexible hours (which they absolutely can be if you’re just doing data entry and not an actual payroll coordinator) you’ll need to enforce your professional boundaries. Good luck!

  160. Anonymosity*

    /rant
    Advice to folks who know someone who is dealing with long-term unemployment:

    PLEASE STOP making random suggestions about jobs! I know and appreciate that you’re trying to help. But since most of you have no idea what I do or cannot do, all it does is make me feel very stressed!

    1. If you want to suggest things, at least take the time to ask me what I’m looking for and what my limitations are (because I’ve already told you 67,000 times that I have dyscalculia and cannot do accounting, programming, or budgeting and I’m tired of explaining it).

    2. It wastes both my time and that of the employer for me to apply to a job where I fit none of the qualifications, or lack a major required one.

    3. It is also a waste of time to suggest very low-paid jobs in an area I can’t afford to live in “as a stepping-stone.” How the hell am I supposed to live there? Even if I could manage to move there (not!) and scrape by on the very low salary, I stand a much higher chance of becoming homeless if something should happen to the job because it would be next to impossible to save any money.

    Also, trust me when I say that once you’re in the admin pool, it is VERY hard to get out, so getting an admin job at most companies is not an upward path. It just means you have another admin job on your resume, which makes you look to potential employers as an admin and nothing else, forever and ever, amen. For small companies, the only place to go is usually sales (at which I am very bad) or accounting / payroll (at which I am horrifyingly bad). And yes, I’ve tried HR assistant jobs and I’m not getting anywhere there, either.

    4. Talk to me about ANYTHING ELSE. And don’t constantly ask how the job search is going. I would like to forget about it once in a while.

    5. If you think praying would help, THAT IS FINE–IT IS TOTALLY WELCOME.* Light a candle. Poke the universe, cast a spell, send good vibes, whatever your faith or lack thereof dictates.

    Thank you!

    *just not in my face, please
    /rant over

    Updates:
    No luck so far. If something doesn’t give soon, I will be forced to sell my house (probably at a loss) and go live with my mum, and I do NOT want to do that, for reasons. While I’d have access to a bigger market, it’s not necessarily higher-paid and my housing cost would double (if I were not living in her basement).

    *sigh* I wish I’d sold my house and fled the state right after I lost my job, while I still had a little money in the bank. If I had known this would take so long (21 months now), I would have.

    1. nep*

      I feel you, Anonymosity. So spot on with those pointers.
      Sorry you’re still struggling.
      May you get a good lead, an interview, and an offer soon. Really–it’s so much to take, holding on this long.

    2. anonymoushiker*

      You have my sympathies. I think I would be one of those people doing all the useless ‘help/advice’ things because I wouldn’t know what else to do. Also, I know the struggle to get out of the admin pigeonhole.

    4. Friday*

      Thank you for the pointers. I hope something great comes your way very soon. Rooting so hard for you!

    5. Mazzy*

      I agree, not to mention that people fail to realize how seemingly narrow your pool of jobs becomes as you get older. At the beginning of my career it was something like “any office job requiring computer knowledge” and now it’s like “senior level but not VP level jobs solving billing and finance issues in a medium size industry in the metropolitan area where the industry is not centered, and where the employer appreciates my diverse experience.” I don’t just apply to any office job anymore!

    6. OtterB*

      Sympathies. Also, thanks for this. On the friend side, it’s sometimes hard to walk the line between “making unhelpful suggestions or offering unreasonable perky cheer” and “making person feel like their situation is forgotten by never mentioning it.”

      1. Anonymosity*

        I would suggest asking “Are you doing okay?” That gives them a chance to vent about their search if they want to (and also ask if they just need you to listen). If they don’t, they can just say “Fine,” and change the subject.

        It really is helpful to spend time with people who aren’t focusing solely on the job hunt. Because being unemployed makes me feel like a failure and a piece of shit and nobody will ever love me, etc. so if we could just sit here and endlessly discuss Infinity War, that would be WONDERFUL.

    8. Thlayli*

      Have you thought about working for yourself? I know you write – have you tried selling your work on amazon or similar? Or freelance writing?

      You can get an accountant to do all your sums for you and just ask someone you trust to check it after.

  161. voyager1*

    Good Afternoon Everyone!

    I have a question. Does anyone have any copeing strategies for dealing with a BEC coworker. I don’t want to get into why he is the B, just to say he has always been not a team player (think not ever volunteering to help on busy days or cover weekends when someone was on vacation). He has now been promoted and I just silently fume whenever he does anything.

    I am trying to get out and get another job.

    But I need some copeing strategies till I get out .

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Gah. I wish I had some! I’m at that stage with two of the people I work with right now, mostly for really stupid reasons.

      Mostly I’m just biting my tongue and trying to avoid them. I don’t know how much longer that will last though!

      1. voyager1*

        I really wish it was for stupid reasons in my case. I purposely left out what this guy has done to become the B. The entire team can not stand him.

  162. Jadelyn*

    Huh. That was supposed to nest under the vegan discussion up there. Not sure what happened.

  163. Third username*

    So this is bothering me, and I’m not sure if it should be. My coworker must be the only person in the world who likes to be micro managed. We have the same manager but very different roles and when he hits a road block he must immediately talk to her about it instead of finding ways around or making due. The reason this bugs me is because he gets significantly more face time with our manager to the point that he can get in the way of things we are working on. My role requires some creative collaboration and since I’m a team of one my manager, and I often meet to cover the things I need outside input on. I schedule the meeting, and coworker (Ross) will get annoyed that he can’t talk to her right at that moment. He even interrupted our letting about a problem he was having that could’ve waited. I feel like he’s being rude, but maybe it’s a work style difference. What should I do, if anything?

    1. voyager1*

      I would go to your manager and say that the interruptions are interfering with you getting work done. I wouldn’t assume he wants to be micromanaged, he may have come from a workplace that punished folks easily or for taking intitive. Either way sounds like what you are going through would be darn annoying.

    2. Argh!*

      I wouldn’t worry about having less face-time, since your supervisor probably inwardly rolls her eyes and thinks “Oh gawd what now?”

      It’s up to your manager to set the boundaries, so you’ll have to live with it. He may indeed be incapable of getting things done without hand-holding, and your manager wants those things to get done.

    3. Bob Loblaw*

      If I was your manager, I would be seriously annoyed that one of my employees needed my input before making a move. I wouldn’t think he’s getting positive face time with the manager, unless your manager is a bit clueless. Your manager may actually appreciate your autonomy. But you should raise the issue of the interruptions. It’s really inappropriate of your coworker to feel his work should take priority over yours. And it’s not appropriate to interrupt someone else’s meeting for a question unless it’s really urgent and impacting business/customers.

    4. tangerineRose*

      Your co-worker gets annoyed that he can’t talk to the manager during your meeting for something that’s not an emergency? Yeah, that’s his problem, and if he’s being obnoxious about it, he is being rude.

    5. Thlayli*

      Wanting more guidance is a work style difference (though one that is probably wrecking your managers head). Interrupting your meeting is just plain rude.

  164. AskingforBrighteyedNewHire*

    Our team just hired a brand new admin – it’s her first job out of college and she’s super bright and diligent. She’ll be supervising a few student workers. I want to share some articles with her about being a new supervisor, women in the workplace, etc, but in google searches I’m just finding things like “10 things new managers are doing wrong.” Any and all ideas welcome! Thanks!

    1. Laura H.*

      This blog actually has a few good tips on being a new supervisor and such. I’m not sure of what tag you’d look for but

      1. No Tribble At All*

        Category “being the boss” on the sidebar. Link below in moderation. I realize there’s a lot. I’ve linked to a few posts below

    2. Argh!*

      Try googling “supervising student workers” .edu

      Putting .edu into it makes it more specific.

    3. Rey*

      I would highly recommend reading Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. I first read it when I graduated from college and it has so much information about women in the workplace (with tons of research citations to back it up).

  165. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    Sort-of work related: what’s your favorite calendar app for your phone (android)?

    For whatever reason I find the whole process of adding events etc. to the standard google calendar app from email really fiddly. It just seems like I have to copy+paste+edit, change the time, change the time again so it’s actually correct, oops then fix the date, etc. every time. Is there a better way to integrate email + calendar?

    1. wingmaster*

      My company uses Outlook, and what I find useful are the automatic reminders that a certain event will be happening soon. Whenever events are rescheduled (made by the employee), it’s automatically updated in my calendar.

      When FIFA was going on, I added that feature too. I got reminders of when each game was happening hahaha

  166. raise requestor*

    My company’s business is in a downswing due to our corporate customers restructuring and freezing budgets and such. There are rumors of layoffs, some cost-saving changes have been made, and our annual salary adjustments (everyone gets a raise, whether its a COL adjustment or merit raise) have been delayed. We’ve been in this position before but I still got an increase. I would really like a 15% raise to bring me up to what I feel is market value for my weird position of half graphic design, half editor, half eLearning. My previous adjustments were 15%, 5%, 13% – but I also started out at around $30k. If the pattern persists, this will be a low year but I really need to increase my salary due to changing life circumstances and I think my duties and my value to the company have increased substantially.

    Should I still attempt to raise it with my manager or would it be tone-deaf to try to ask for more money? I’m tempted to just wait and see what they offer. Usually our adjustments are announced to us. I haven’t heard of anyone advocating for a higher raise, but I’m only on asking terms with the female support staff, and I know the male engineers make substantially more than any of us.

    1. Thlayli*

      You can always ask but the tone is very important here. If any actual info has been shared other than rumours, start with that. Eg “I saw the email about no increases this year. Is that across the board or is there any leeway at all?” If you think there’s a specific reason you’ll be getting a raise it could be “is there any leeway at all due to [reason you should be a special case]?”

      If there’s just rumours, you can whether pretend the rumours don’t exist, or you can acknowledge them upfront and say something like “I’ve heard rumours about there being no raises this year. Is there any truth in that?”

  167. Courageous cat*

    How do you put it out of your mind when you interview for the perfect job? It feels like dating. When I get rejected, I get so disheartened from continuing to look because no other jobs sound as good as The One(s) That Got Away. I know I should put it out of mind and move on, but I’ve already fallen in love and want to enter a sweet steamy relationship with this company.

    1. nep*

      I’ve not yet gotten over not even making the shortlist for a job I was sure was created for me. I feel you. Of course not the same kind of rejection sting as when one interviews for a job and is passed over. But just knowing there was nothing of interest to them in what I presented? Ouch.
      No other prospect will ever ‘live up’ to that one; you’re right, that’s how it feels.
      But I can only live and learn; I know I’ve got to improve how I’m putting myself out there.
      So as you see–a lot of commiseration here, if not great new advice.
      All the best, Courageous cat. Good luck.

      1. Courageous cat*

        Thank you nep – I’m glad to hear I’m not alone in this, though that is definitely a painful feeling. It’s so mindblowing when it feels like the job posting was taken straight from your resume, and they don’t even care. But as wayward said below, there can be so many reasons for it.

        Luckily I was just torturing myself a little preeemptively today, as the company I’m now lusting after just extended an offer for an in-person interview (after I thought I struggled through the phone interview today) so at least there’s that. Whew.

        1. nep*

          Oh my goodness that is fantastic news! (And another example of–you never know.) Well done. Keep us posted. All the best in the in-person interview.

    2. wayward*

      Oh, but you never know what’s going on behind the scenes — it’s possible they already had someone in mind and had to put it out there anyhow. If possible, I would suggest a resume review and maybe a mock interview to make sure that you’re not doing anything that hurts your chances.

      1. nep*

        Good point–This is one of the craziest parts of job-hunting. In so many cases, the ad is put out there strictly as a formality and the spot is already filled. Errrrgh.

      2. Courageous cat*

        That’s all very true. It’s just weird how it makes me feel similar to dating – how you convince yourself that one person is so great, no other person is going to measure up. I never used to get like that with jobs, but it seems like I do now the higher-level I go, because I know what I want and I’ve gotten more particular.

        I know I do well in interviews (I’ve had a lot of good feedback on it from employers) but a resume review isn’t a bad idea too.

    3. Susan K*

      I know the feeling — I have my own “one that got away.” I still think about it occasionally, but I try to remember that I only saw the good side of the job. The company put their best foot forward when they thought they might want to hire me, but who knows what the job and company are really like? They’re not going to advertise that the manager might try to make you donate your liver to his brother, or that one of your coworkers will critique what you eat for lunch, and yet, every day, Alison answers questions about crappy work situations that the letter writers probably didn’t know about before they started the job. So, there’s a good chance your “perfect job” wasn’t all it was cracked up to be.

      1. Courageous cat*

        Very good point that I need to keep in mind more often. I could just as easily be dodging a bullet without knowing it!

  168. The New Wanderer*

    Question about Coursera – I think it’s been discussed here that putting MOOCs that have been completed on a resume is fine, either under skills (if it was a skill development course) or under education if that’s more appropriate.

    What about a course in progress? I’m making my way through the Data Science Specialization, which results in a certificate, and will be done with it before I actually start working anywhere. But I’d like to indicate that I’m developing R programming skills in my applications. I think it makes sense to put that in a cover letter, but what about also on a resume?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This is my first MOOC so I don’t know how it relates to others yet. For this one specifically, I’d say it depends on your tolerance for programming, which is probably related to how much programming experience you have. For instance, I knew Pascal and BASIC back in the day, but dropped Comp 101 in college because it focused on the recursive language Scheme. My brain didn’t work that way, but because I had a tiny bit of familiarity and more motivation now, the R stuff is a little easier to grasp. If you already know any programming, you’ll probably have a head start.

        I’m just finishing the second week of course 2 (R Programming), so halfway through that one, and have enjoyed the lectures for both first and second courses so far. The quizzes are kind of a surprise. Course 1 – no problem, it’s all intro stuff. Course 2 week 1 – first couple of questions were fine, and then bam! questions involving programming concepts not directly covered in the lectures. Everything is Google-able, of course (even the answers to homework*, as the course has been around for 5 or so years), and the instructors have included a 10 minute lecture on how to ask for help/search online for things so it’s very much expected that you do this to trouble-shoot your efforts.

        Time wise, it’s been faster than the advised amount of time but I’m not currently working so have lots of spare time, and everything is self-paced. It took me ~9 hours to do this week’s homework, because of all the debugging and looking up how to do X and Y properly.

        * There are better and worse answers out there b/c there are multiple ways to solve any of the problems. I saw answers that were 20 lines of code vs. 5 lines of code to solve the same problem. There is an honor code to do your own work (and honestly no point to cut and paste wholesale because it just gets harder from here!), but it’s very much open book/open notes. I know for the peer reviewed sections of the homework, you are asked to confirm whether you think the students you are grading did their own work.

    2. KayEss*

      I would handle this the same way you handle an anticipated degree–the name of the certification, then instead of the completion date, use “expected September 2018” or whenever it will be completed.

    3. Borgette*

      I have a skills section on mine with R, Python, SQL, Tableau, etc. If you’re using any specialized libraries you can list it like this: Python (including Numpy, Pandas).

  169. nep*

    I recently glanced at a resume on a LinkedIn profile and it led with a skills section, then had about 20 bullet points of achievements throughout the person’s career. Only after that was there any indication of past positions/dates. Is this what’s considered a ‘functional’ resume? It looked quite odd. I wonder how this goes over. (Not planning to do this–just curious.) If I recall correctly Alison says no to these, right? Hiring managers?

  170. Daffy Duck*

    How do I ask when my annual review will be scheduled? I work remotely for a medium-sized (~150 people) company. My supervisor is great but the big boss can be a bit quirky. I like the supervisor, but with all remote work there is very little casual talk/socialization. COL and raises are not officially tied to annual reviews, but that is when they actually happen. The first year my supervisor forgot to schedule my review until 5 months later, then last year it was about 6 weeks late, so now it falls right in the middle of the busy season. In the past he would message me if it was a good time to call, and I would find out on the phone that this was my annual review (zero prep time on my end). I’ve always gotten glowing reviews, but there was a mention of them being behind on some other internal paperwork and supervisor is getting married next month. I really don’t want to have another potential raise bumped another 4 months down the road to slow season.

    1. Thlayli*

      Your annual review doesn’t need to be exactly one year after the last one. If the last one was 6 weeks late I would ask about it 1 year after it was supposed to happen.

  171. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    My supervisor this week was basically manipulated by someone who doesn’t supervise me about the fact that I don’t work 8 hour days every day. Sometimes more, sometimes less, always 40 or less hours. She finally mentioned something about they needed to figure out how they’re going to move forward. Part of me is hoping that means there are discussions about making me salaried (I am woefully underpaid right now), but part of me doesn’t….actually want to work here. It’s toxic and the owners are manipulative and are dedicating way more money, time, and effort into being technological dinosaurs than I can really comprehend on a numeric level. >_<;
    An opportunity showed up in the geographic area I'd like to be, but is very limited in work scope. And I worry there would not be growth opportunity either inside the company, or for the position that would follow this one. HRK. Gotta keep fighting!

  172. The Seamstress*

    Does anybody have any experience with getting worker’s comp? I recently have developed carpal tunnel syndrome due to my work (I’m a seamstress and I work for a business). The doctors believe my work caused my CT, especially since I’m only 26 and all my family who had CT were over the age of 40, and my coworker and I just discovered my employer doesn’t follow OSHA guidelines. I want to file for worker’s comp, but I know my boss will be against it. Advice please?

    1. WellRed*

      If your boss isn’t following OSHA and you hsve carpal tunnel you’ve got a bigger problem. I mean, maybe be prepared to speak with an employment lawyer.

    3. Thlayli*

      Yeah time to talk to a lawyer. If you know your boss will be against you filing for this, then it’s a good possibility that your boss is aware they aren’t following osha guidelines.

  173. Stranger than fiction*

    How does it work with medical coverage when switching jobs? In the past I’ve been healthy anf just went without for a few months. Last time, around eight years ago, I paid for conra just for my daughter because she has health issues. At that time, it was over $600/mo just for her. Now I have issues too, and don’t want a gap, but can’t afford both of us (or either really) to be on cobra. Any advice?

    1. TCO*

      Look into your state’s insurance exchange marketplace. Even if you don’t qualify for ACA subsidies you might find a sufficient plan that’s less than COBRA. Do it before you take COBRA–losing job-connected health insurance is a “qualifying life event” that will allow you to enroll in a plan outside of the open enrollment period, but if you take COBRA then you lose that “qualifying life event” exemption unless you run out of your COBRA coverage period.

    2. Bob Loblaw*

      Check with your current job’s internal policies too. In my experience, your company may provide benefits for 30 days after last date of employment or until the end of the calendar month. I made the mistake of leaving a job at the end of the month, losing my insurance coverage a couple of days after my last day, and going uninsured until my new job’s benefits kicked in. Also, many companies start their benefits for new employees on day 1. Even if you’re not enrolled immediately, coverage is usually retroactive if you have any medical needs before you have your new insurance card. If you don’t have a long break between jobs, you may not need to go with COBRA.

  174. Mariella*

    I mentioned on another post a few weeks ago about my co worker who talks about the same thing constantly/a bit of an attention seeker..

    I am on annual leave atm but my dh also works there, and he told me something that happened on monday involving this co worker. I cant quite bring myself to believe it (maybe hes having me on?!)

    Basically this co worker “Emily” sprained her ankle at the weekend, and is on crutches. She asked fellow co worker “Jim” to put her consumables in the fridge because it was a bit difficult for her which is fair enough. Jim put the food in the fridge, turned around and Emily was crawling on the floor to get to the fridge because she forgot to pass something to Jim.

    Jim asked what she was doing and she said crawling was just easier than the crutches?! I could believe it of this co worker but i just dont understand what would prompt her to actually crawl?! On the floor?! At work?! Im gobsmacked if this is factual.

  175. Indie*

    I was wondering if anyone had some advice to share on freelance writing or proofreading jobs to give a formerly salaried journalist. I work term time in a school and thought I might explore this in the next few weeks of the summer holiday for extra cash and because I enjoy writing and editing.

    I looked into CV proofreading and that was a godawful waste of time because their style guides were hackneyed and the terms a rip off both for me and the customers. I’m considering contributing education articles in the near future but want something more low key to begin with. Any ideas?

    1. nep*

      I’ll be interested in responses here too.
      ACES / Society for Editing has a job bank section on its website. Once in a while some contract jobs will be listed there.
      (I’ve never used Upwork or Flexjobs, but I hear those suggested sometimes.)

  176. nep*

    Anyone completely exasperated by an online application process–to the point of bailing on what might be a good fit, just so as not to go through it again? There’s this international organisation I’ve applied to in the past with immense frustration all along the way. I keep saying ‘never again,’ then I see another prospect that fits my skills. I think I’m just ranting before I dive in and spend a couple hours working in their bleeping application again. (Yes–it saves some information, but there are always issues…no mechanism to attach a document they ask for…other…)

    2. Daffy Duck*

      I am starting to really, really, hate online applications. All that work and you never know if a human even saw it!

      1. nep*

        Yes. I even contacted a human (I think it was a human who replied to my email) to ask about that one document they request but for which there is no mechanism/form for attaching it. S/he offered some vague, completely unhelpful response. So, yeah, I wonder why I bother. Not sure whether I will this time. Then again, I NEED A JOB and I’ve pretty much got to try for everything that matches my background. (‘You miss 100 percent of the shots you don’t take’ keeps going through my head.)

    3. Amberleigh*

      Yes! It seems to take forever and you never actually know if anyone looked at it.

    4. Hired for a sh*t show?*

      Absolutely! Especially with ones that have you take an “assessment” test. It’s almost like having a full-time job.

    5. Mickey Q*

      I got automatically rejected because I had to answer NO to “Do you have a Bachelors in Accounting.” I have a Bachelor in something else and an MBA and many years of experience in accounting, but my application never got past that question.

      1. nep*

        Right–that kind of thing.
        I did about 1.5 years of graduate school but didn’t finish for the MA, but this form has nowhere I might note that. I know it’s not a huge deal (and it’s the least of my worries with this particular form), but it’s something a bit more than my BA and it would be good to have some mention of it.

  177. AloneinanUberCall*

    Waited 15 minutes in an interview conference call – interviewer (CEO) was a no-show. Sent an email politely asking to be rescheduled.

    Is this a terrible awful sign that this is 100% not going to work out for me, or can I chalk it up to weird miscommunication?

    Should I have waited longer in the call? I have to go back to work!

    1. Daffy Duck*

      I think 15 minutes is plenty of time to wait. Sending an email so they know you were there was a good move. I don’t know if this is a sign or not. For current job I was waiting by the phone, they set a time but never sent me a number to call. 5 minutes after the scheduled interview I am in the middle of an email and supervisor calls asking if I was planning on showing up to the conference call. Pointed out they never sent me a number, just a time (nicely, and apologized for the misunderstanding). They turned out to be great to work for otherwise, except annual reviews do tend to be put off for months.

  178. Ann O.*

    I’m on a contract that’s ending this week. I’ve had to use Git for the first time with no training. I misunderstood something pretty significant about how branching works in Git vs. in a typical content management system that ended up affecting my files unexpectedly. It seemed like the issue was resolved, but either it wasn’t or there was a second previously unknown issue that is preventing my branch from being merged back in successfully.

    This is all of my work. I am proud of the project that I completed. My manager is happy with the project and wants it to go live. But the person who is the main Git problems fixer person has totally ghosted me this week, so the issue is completely unresolved.

    I thought I had a workaround that would fix the issue since my files are so isolated, but it did not work. I know it’s not my problem. If the Git issue means that this work is just lost, it’s the company who’s wasted all of the money. I still got paid for my time and labor. But it is still so upsetting to think of this project just getting lost because no one could be bothered to sit with me for (probably) 30 minutes to resolve the issue.

    1. Junior Dev*

      What’s the issue?

      Can you run
      $ git log –graph

      And see how your branch differs from what you want?

      1. Junior Dev*

        Should be a double dash before graph, I think WordPress is converting it to an em dash.

        1. Ann O.*

          I had some extra time, so I tried it. But I didn’t see anything unexpected. :(

          All of the error messages relate to files I never touched and don’t know anything about. It’s all so mysterious to me. But I’ve made my peace with the fact that there’s just nothing I can do about it any more.

      2. Ann O.*

        I wish I had the time to take your advice and see if I can resolve things, but it’s my last day. My manager knows which branch contains my up-to-date files, and I also copied them into a shared directory, so it’s out of my hands. Either they’ll care enough about getting my project to go live that they’ll prioritize resolving the issue, or they won’t. My files are isolated from everything else, so they shouldn’t need any input from me.

        I’m sure Git is lovely for collaborative coding, but from my POV, it’s very strange! I wish I was just in a typical content management system, where there would be no chance of my checked in work getting undone.

    3. wayward*

      If you’re a developer, I’d strongly recommend learning to use Git, because getting your code checked in is generally an expected part of that job. There are a number of online tutorials and manuals.

      If you’re not a developer, then it may be more reasonable to expect someone to help you use the organization’s source code management system.

      1. Ann O.*

        I am not a developer. I am a technical editor. That’s why my files are so isolated. The only thing I touch are the source files for the documentation and the output files for the documentation.

        I did use online tutorials to get a basic understanding of Git, but the problem with self-teaching is that it’s not always obvious when you misunderstand a concept. I thought I could work on my branch for as long as I needed without problems when it came time to merge back because I’m the only one touching my files, but apparently that is not the case. The problem is apparently that my branch is too old. I still don’t really understand why this is the case. (then I thought I could create a new branch and copy my files into it, but that didn’t work either. This was based on a developer’s advice, so I’m not sure why it didn’t work.)

    4. nep*

      Just want to say, I’d love to one day read this thread and know what every little word/term/detail means. I’m fascinated by this stuff.
      OP good luck–hope all works out.

  179. Junior Dev*

    I am proud of myself for telling a co-worker about something he did that annoyed me. I asked him to cut back on cracking jokes in meetings because it derails discussion and wastes time. He was a little defensive but not mean, and things have been good since then. I used to have so much trouble with confrontation. I’m getting better at it.

  180. LordV*

    What have you received in a meeting or event swag bag that you ACTUALLY appreciated? My boss wants us to make little bags for staff attending an upcoming meeting, but I feel like so many things just end up going in the trash. It’s hard to put something together on a budget that people will get some use out of.

    Budget for the bags is probably $10 each. Any suggestions?

    2. Not All Who Wander*

      -small (but surprisingly bright) LED flashlight
      -even better was the wind-up LED flashlight for emergency kit
      -Hand-sanitizer (conference was during peak cold/flu season)
      -little box of assorted paper clips & binder clips
      -breath mints

    4. Temperance*

      I like small, spiral bound notebooks with sturdy covers. Also good mints (not those crappy ones in every swagbag!), maybe a coffee mug with a lid, and hand sanitizer would be appreciated.

    6. Nanc*

      Oof. Well with a small budget I think you’re looking at office supply type things. “Nice” pens–better than Bic but not Montblanc, branded post-it notes, coasters, silly binder clips (urgent, whenever, who cares?). Souvenir of a famous local attraction? Electronics screen cleaners? I use those to clean my glasses, too. Anything local you could buy in bulk? We’ve bought tins of Dagoba Chocolate squares and split them up among gift bags. Portland Bee Balm lip balms are from my state and they’re $2 in the local grocery stores. Stress squeeze balls/key chains–I have a cute rubber duck squeeze key chain I got from the Dollar store. Reusable sleeves for coffee cups. Playing cards (old school solitaire!)

      Good luck!

    7. Ursula*

      You likely won’t get stuff people really love for that so how about stuff that is useful e.g stuff people use everyday like mugs and pens (or a gift certificate).

    8. sometimeswhy*

      Absolute favorite: GOOD pens. If the ink is sticky or spotty or the pen is flimsy I’ll turn it down, give it back, or discard it but if you have a pen with good, smooth ink that meets the other regulatory requirements surrounding documentation for my industry? I’ll take a handful and use them forever.

      Other, most of of which live on my desk as I type this:
      – A Nalgene water bottle with related-to-field decorations and very discreet branding
      – A stainless steel water bottle with related-to-field-decorations and very discreet branding
      – Ceramic or pyrex mugs (some of them came filled with chocolate, one came filled with packets of hot chocolate powder) I use them for pens but we also keep a stock of them in our shared kitchenette
      – Tools – I have a box cutter, a multitool, two flash lights, a bottle opener (this particular vendor knew us very well), and a pen-sized screwdriver with interchangeable bits that stored in the barrel that I used yesterday.
      – medium (6×8″?) spiral notebook with good cover
      – playing cards

  181. Susan K*

    I’m in charge of deploying iPads to everyone in my department. There’s a certain app we’re going to use extensively, and it costs $10 (almost $11 with tax). The company is paying for it, but each employee has to purchase it out of pocket and submit an expense report to get reimbursed.

    One of my coworkers doesn’t want to associate her personal credit card with her work Apple ID, so she won’t purchase the app. I can understand her concern; I didn’t like it, either, so I deleted the credit card information from my account as soon as I completed the purchase. I suggested that she do the same, or alternatively, purchase an iTunes gift card to use for this, but she wants our manager to purchase a gift card and submit his own expense report to get reimbursed for the gift card.

    This is one of my favorite coworkers — someone I really like and respect — but she will dig her heels in sometimes. I think it’s reasonable for her not to want to use her personal credit card in this manner, but I also think there are reasonable alternatives for her to purchase the app. I suppose I could offer to purchase a gift card for her and let her pay me back in cash after she gets reimbursed, and I’d be willing to do that just to keep the peace, but I’m concerned that (1) this could somehow have the appearance of impropriety, and/or (2) other people will find out about it and demand that I do the same for them. On the other hand, I’d rather not have to go to my manager about such a minor thing.

    Is it reasonable for me to insist she find a way that she’s comfortable with to purchase the app, even if it is inconvenient for her because she’s not comfortable with the easy way? Or is this asking too much? If it is necessary for me to circumvent the normal process, should I just deal directly with the coworker, or should I loop in my manager to make sure it doesn’t look like either of us is trying to pull something? If I had to, it wouldn’t be the end of the world for me just to pay for the gift card myself and consider it a gift, although I’d rather not, since the company is supposed to be paying for this.

    P.S. I know people might be thinking that maybe she is completely broke and spending $11 on this app might mean she can’t eat until she gets reimbursed, but please trust me that I have good reason to believe that’s not the case, and the only issue is with using her credit card on her work iTunes account.

    1. Rey*

      I think it’s time to loop in your manager because the department already picked a process and this employee is wanting to do something different. Especially because money (even just $11) is involved and everything needs to check out and look above board, your manager needs to know what’s going on (and they might have a preference for the work around).

      1. Susan K*

        There are company credit cards, but they can only be used for certain things, and this isn’t on the list.

    3. Seriously?*

      Your company is being unreasonable. They should have a mechanism of purchasing required software that doesn’t involve forcing employees to pay out of pocket initially. It doesn’t matter whether the employees are not broke. Why the the company unable to pay for the app directly why can’t they buy the gift card?

    4. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      +1 loop your manager in, follow the set guidelines. She’s being abnormally difficult.

    5. Temperance*

      I hate dealing with people like your coworker. How obnoxious.

      Don’t pay for it for her. Make her do it.

      1. CBE*

        Eh, I think the company is being far more obnoxious expecting employees to use their personal Apple ID and credit card to fund business expenses. It’s not obnoxious to stand up against that.

        1. Justme, The OG*

          Agree. I work at a state university and we’ll even pay for iPad apps on University devices.

        2. Susan K*

          People don’t have to use their personal Apple ID; I have an Apple ID with my work e-mail address that I only use on company-provided devices, and I don’t use my personal Apple ID on company devices. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to require employees to pay for business expenses and then get reimbursed; I have done that numerous times for travel expenses (and that’s a lot more than $11). My coworker used to be in a position where she had to make purchases in cash every week and submit expense reports to get reimbursed, and she was fine with doing that.

          The thing my coworker opposes here is linking a credit card to an iTunes account, and I get her point because I know how apps can be sneaky about trying to get people to make in-app purchases, or how easy it could be to purchase an app from the App Store that’s you didn’t notice was a paid app. I am just trying to work with her to find a way for her to get the app but not have to worry about getting charged for things she doesn’t want. Somebody’s going to have to put in some extra effort to make this happen, though — if not her, then me and maybe our manager.

          1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

            I think she’s being unreasonable about the gift card, though. That seems like a perfect solution — why won’t she buy it and then submit it as an expense herself? I don’t understand why she wants the boss to do that part for her.

          2. CBE*

            A lot of employees cannot afford to front expenses to their employer and get reimbursed. Companies should NOT expect such short term loans from employees. (And that’s what they are when the employee has to pay for the company’s costs of doing business!)

        3. KR*

          Well Susan said they’re using specific work apple IDs. I agree the reimbursement requirement is a pain in the butt though.

    6. LilySparrow*

      I understand it’s your job to deploy the iPads. I don’t understand why it’s your job to solve this imaginary problem for her.

      She’s a grownup. She knows that gift cards exist and how to buy them.

      Imaginary problems are always impossible to solve, because they are imaginary. That’s the point. She doesn’t want to use the app, so she’s pretending there is no way for her to buy it. If you buy her a gift card, she will pretend she doesn’t know how to use it. And so on.

      If the app is necessary for her to do her job, and she is being reimbursed for the cost, let her deal with how to get it. And her manager can deal with her if she’s not getting her work done because she didn’t follow through.

      1. Susan K*

        That was pretty much my opinion — that if she doesn’t want to get the app the easy way, it’s on her to find a workaround — but I asked about it here because I wanted to make sure it was a reasonable request in the first place. It’s interesting how people have replied with polar opposite opinions on this! Some people think it’s outrageous for the company to make people purchase it and get reimbursed, and others think my coworker is unreasonable for refusing to do it. I would like to help her solve this problem, though, because she is normally a great coworker (conscientious, hard worker, goes out of her way to help other people), so I think she has earned some extra leeway.

    7. Thlayli*

      I also want to say ask your manager before agreeing to involve your credit card. I can totally understand her not wanting to do this but you have to be careful you’re not accidentally breaking rules too.

  182. Newjob.with.mono*

    Hey y’all, semi-regular poster here going anon. I could use some internet love and support! I’m a few weeks into a new job and about two months into mono recovery. And oh man is this hard. No one at new job knows about the mono and I’ve been progressively getting better, but I haven’t accrued sick time yet and I’m having THE WORST mono flare up today. I literally want to cry. Hugs, suggestions, coping strategies all welcome. Thx!

    1. Daffy Duck*

      (()) My sister had mono and it is a bear to deal with! I don’t have any good tips, hope you are able to treat yourself with something special when work is over for the day.

  183. ShutUpPlease*

    Has anyone ever quit their job over an issue with the office environment and not the job itself or their boss?

    I don’t know if I have Misophonia or what, but I am about to lose it with a coworker who plays music through speakers all day every day (including leaving it on when they step away for lunch). No one else around them has complained that I know of, or asked them to turn it down, so I’m not sure if I’m just ultra sensitive or if everyone else is just being too polite. I used to ask them to turn it down occasionally when I was feeling particularly annoyed but I could still hear it even when they complied and I just got tired of asking.

    Now that we’ve been switched to a more open office I was hoping it would be banned by management but it hasn’t. I notice it even more and it just gets under my skin because from my vantage point (one cubicle row over and one cube behind) it just sounds like irritating noises and not necessarily music.

    Things I’ve tried that haven’t helped:

    Playing white/pink/brown noise on my computer speakers. I can still hear it in the background, sometimes ever clearer which is odd.

    Listening to headphones (not noise-cancelling, but earbuds). Can still hear it.

    Talking to HR. They don’t want to outright ban playing music via speakers.

    Since I wear glasses I’ve been hesitant to try over the ear headphones as they tend to hurt. In-ear noise cancelling earbuds (at the least the ones I’ve tried) seem to be heavy on the bass which is annoying to me particularly if listening to a podcast.

    Things I can’t do:

    Move. This is a small office with limited seating and they want us grouped by department.

    Work from home. Company is too paper-dependent so it just wouldn’t work.

    I just don’t know how much more I can take of this. I work part-time thankfully but it’s still approximately 24 hours a work of audible torture for me that leaves me feeling irritable and unable to focus/concentrate. It just seems like a silly reason to leave a job but I’m not sure what else to do.

    1. Rey*

      It seems like you should talk to your supervisor (who is hopefully their supervisor). I would explain what you have tried doing (playing your own music in headphones) and that the speaker music is still preventing you from focusing on work. I would specifically state that you have asked your coworker to turn down the music in the past and that the real issue is the use of speakers. In an open floor plan, this is especially problematic.

    2. Hired for a sh*t show?*

      Does your company have a policy that deals with things such as playing of music and things of that nature? I’m guessing no if HR does not want to ban playing music via speakers.

    3. nep*

      I do hope there will be a resolution without you having to leave the job. Perhaps this person will move or leave out of the blue…!
      As someone who has a LOT of trouble with certain noises, I can relate. And I can see myself looking to leave a job if this was a constant source of stress with no end in sight. Really hope that won’t be the case for you.
      Good luck and keep us posted.

    4. Susan K*

      Have you talked directly to the coworker? I know you said you asked the person to turn it down occasionally, but have you actually had a conversation about the overall issue of how the constant music makes it impossible for you to concentrate and it would really help if she could listen to her music with headphones instead of playing it on speakers? Maybe if she realized that the is something that bothers you constantly every day (not just once in awhile, only on the rare occasion you ask her to turn it down), she would be willing to stop. I would do that before going to your manager, but if she still won’t, then go to your manager.

      For what it’s worth, I think this person is being incredibly rude. If you want to play music in the office, you better make sure everyone is ok with it. In my book, the desire not to hear music trumps the desire to hear music, so if even one person doesn’t want to hear it, it’s time to turn it off. I hope your manager agrees!

    5. Argh!*

      You need to talk to a doctor to get an ADA accommodation. Then the *doctor* talks to HR about what you need, and HR talks to your boss, and if approved it the arrangement is made.

      If you are using in-ear buds, you should be able to turn down the bass via your computer’s sound system. Then play white noise you can handle, not podcasts, if you want sympathy from those around you.

      It can be done. Good luck.

    6. Only if you're really desperate*

      Last resort: bring in your own speakers and play competing music until everyone else wants speakers banned. Depending on your part of the country, I recommend rap or country music.

    7. Thlayli*

      When you say speakers you mean actual speakers not headphones? If so then no you don’t have misophonia you’re totally normal. No one wants to listen to someone else’s music when you’re trying to concentrate.

  184. Beth Anne*

    I was reading this article and they said there are 11 million meetings a day in the U.S.!! Isn’t that insane. They then said that’s 4 billion a year and 2 billion of them are unproductive. I just thought that was crazy.

    This is from a ministry site but it has some good tips on how to run a good meeting. http://www.ministrybestpractices.com/2016/03/how-to-make-meetings-stink-less.html

    From the sounds of it it sounds like people try to do too much in 1 meeting.

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I think I attended half of them myself this week alone!

    3. tangerineRose*

      Only 2 billion of them are unproductive? I would have thought it would have at least been 3 billion.

    4. vonlowe*

      Only meeting I have needed to attend was basically being talked at for 1h30m…

      Could have been summed up much better via email. Doodled in the margin most weeks. (Luckily it was an audio only Skype call)

  185. Hired for a sh*t show?*

    I think I was hired for a sh*t show and not sure how to handle this situation.

    I started a position last week where I am the manager of a call center. When I started, my employer did not have authorization for all of the programs that I would need access to so I spent a majority of last week sitting with another manager learning the different programs. When this manager left for the day I was on my own with the staff that I would be managing. I used this time to break the ice with the employees and tried to get a sense of the environment within the call center. Needless to say this is where the sh*t show starts to come into focus.

    I am the fourth manager in four years to hold this position. The last manager was apparently terminated and now the EEOC is involved. I guess the EEOC started investigating before I started and some of my employees are being questioned. None of this was disclosed to me by management.

    My Boss who is the Senior Manager (SM) reworked everyone’s schedule to where they all have to work 5 days a week. The majority of my staff are part time. From what I have gathered, the reason my Manager made everyone work 5 days a week was because prior managers had let employees have certain days off leaving the call center short handed on certain days; which is understandable. Although the SM is making everyone work 5 days a week he came up with modified schedules to where some of my employees don’t have to work their full shift. This has caused tension within the call center with some of employees complaining of favoritism. I had asked the employees that feel this way if they had spoken to my boss or anyone else about this issue and they said no because they are afraid of what might happen.

    I want to speak to my boss about this but I don’t want it to be seen as someone that’s new coming in and already rattling chains. I most certainly do not want to work in an environment of dysfunction.

    Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Brownie*

      “Hey Boss, I don’t understand what’s going on here. The guidelines I was given say that everyone needs to work their full shifts, but not everyone is. Do you know what’s going on?” Frame it as just a normal clarification for now, but observe and document. If it does end up looking like favoritism then you’ll need proof to go higher up, but it might also be something like those employees voluntarily taking off a half hour early without that pay because they need to pick up kids/catch a bus/go to weekly medical appts and the SM hasn’t formalized it because it’s against written company policy even though they verbally cleared it through their boss.

    3. Argh!*

      If you have the authority to change people’s schedules, then you can promise them to try to figure out a more equitable distribution of shifts. That should give them some hope while your boss is away, and you can brainstorm some ideas in your own head or with them.

      re: EEOC complaint, it would not be kosher to share that with an applicant or incoming employee. It’s a shame you’re hearing about it from your people, but now that you know, when your boss comes back you can talk about it.

      Whatever happens, this will be a learning experience. Promise yourself you’ll learn something and then the storms won’t be drama. They’ll be the lesson of the day.

  186. IceTea4Meee*

    Hi all! So next Tuesday I have an interview within my company for a manager position. It’s a role I held and did well with at a dysfunctional organization. When I took my current role it was a step up in pay but down in title and it’s shift work. I heard through my network that someone else interviewed for this position and that they were offering a salary about 12k below my current base salary. As it is exempt I’d be losing just over 30k in shift differential, overtime and other bonuses. I’m worried how trying to negotiate with my current employer is going to come across. And if I do turn this down because of salary would that negatively impact any future attempts at transferring?

    1. Anon non*

      Non dysfunctional orgs look at the impact of moving somebody from non-exempt to exempt because they recognize that take home pay in an hourly world can be different because of of overtime, shift work, etc.. That doesn’t mean they will make it an equivalent pay level because they are offering you a path to escalating earnings in a manager track. If they don’t bring it up you can (and should) by saying that as much as you want to take advantage of the opportunity there is a bill paying reality in play and you want to be transparent that your thought process includes that. Whether you get punished in the future for declining on that basis really depends on the culture of the company. I would seek out an internal confidante who knows the company, maybe your current manager, another manager of HR to bounce this off of.

      1. IceTea4Meee*

        Thank you! This is my first time working in a non-dysfunctional organization as well as trying to change roles within the current one. I might talk to my current manager after the interview because he has been so supportive in this process.

  187. Jennifer*

    So, I had some good news related to my job at work in that some folks who are normally quite screwed by The System got exceptions made. So yay there.
    On the other hand, we had someone quit and I found out it’s because she was getting bullied by other coworkers…so we have even more bullies. And I overheard someone talking about sexual harassment happening and I don’t even know who that’s about since we have very few dudes here and I can’t picture any of them doing that. Then right after that someone else I know in an adjacent office said she wanted to leave because “my boss is pressuring me to do stuff” and I don’t even know there.
    And we have to have a work retreat in team building and strengths training–at least I am fine with the last one.
    Oy. I am tired. So tired. With no escape.

  188. Chocolate Teapot*

    My copy of the Ask a Manager book arrived this week. If you haven’t bought a copy yet, I strongly recommend you do so.

  189. Triple Anon*

    1) What’s the best office design? Let’s brainstorm.

    I’ve worked in a place where salaries were low but everyone had their own office and a place where salaries were higher but it was open-floor-plan. Which would you prefer? Are there alternatives to open floor plans that result in the same cost savings? Mini cubes, maybe? I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts.

    2) How was your week, Triple?

    My week was good. Thank you for asking. I’m still applying for jobs and waiting to hear back. I need to network more, but time and money have been issues. I really want my next full time job to be a better fit than other recent ones have been. I think in-person networking would help with that a lot. And I know I need to accept that it won’t be perfect and decide what I can and can’t live with. Things are good in my life outside of work. I just hope that can somehow translate to my employment and financial situation.

    1. Anon non*

      I’ve been in charge of the office builds at a couple of places and I have never been instructed to do open floor plan for cost reasons. It’s always been some trendy notion about collaborative working and not creating places where folks can hide out. And since not everybody can have an office in more traditional floor plans it helps do away with the haves hogging all the windows and the have-nots being trapped in the middle of a dark floorplan.
      On to preferences – I would take higher pay to the offices personally. I am currently in an open floor plan and have a job that requires some privacy. I have my back to a corner and a ginormous monitor so visual privacy isn’t an issue. For phone calls I go into a booth or room or outside. It’s workable

      1. Triple Anon*

        That’s intereting. Do you think the cost is a factor but companies don’t like to talk about it? Or do you think open floor plans don’t cut down on costs, or at least not significantly? I was thinking less square footage, probably cheaper to heat and cool, less equipment (shared desks). But maybe that doesn’t make a huge difference?

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      My favorite office space so far was a high-walled cubicle. It was quiet enough that I couldn’t really hear my neighbors (a big factor in a call center) and I had plenty of space to hang things on the walls, as well as overhead shelves and desk drawers. I might consider a modest pay cut not to have the “random desk crammed into a vast open room” model. I briefly visited my husband’s open plan office and I hated just walking through it.

    3. Gatomon*

      I would definitely take a pay cut for more privacy/better space at work. We design and troubleshoot technical issues, so sometimes you can hear a pin drop, and other times it’s all hands on deck for an issue. I’d like to have private spaces with a central collaboration/meeting area large enough for the team. If I can bring my laptop into the collab area and work with a coworker that’s better than cramming into someone’s cube or talking over everyone.

      I think open office/collaboration designs go wrong by assuming that you can just use the regular work space as a simultaneous collaboration space by tearing down cubes. A good collaboration design should actually consume more office space, I think. Plus you’d probably free a ton of conference room space if every team didn’t need to fight for a conference room whenever they needed a team-only meeting.

  190. Student*

    I am having a hard time getting people at work to understand the concept of positive, informed consent in business interactions. Is there a better term for that concept that might ring clearer bells? A decent way to explain it to lunk-head colleagues?

    Example: We’re going to do some research for the government in a fairly public area. We’re supposed to design our experiment to be as safe to the public as possible, with specific legal limits on what the public can be exposed to from our work. A co-worker wants to ignore those legal limits and do his own safety measures. His argument is that the public won’t be exposed to anything particularly dangerous from his plan, though it does not meet the legal requirements. Technically, that is true – under most conditions, the public is reasonably well-protected under his plan. The legal requirements are more restrictive, and they take into account unlikely (but possible!) one-offs that might increase public exposure inadvertently.

    My argument is that the public has consented to deal with stuff up to the legally implemented limits, through their government representatives setting laws. We don’t get to bypass that just because we (think) we know better on what will harm them. They get a voice to say what risks they accept. We can disagree with their assessment, but that doesn’t mean we can ignore it. Also, you know, breaking the law is a really bad plan if you work for the government and could take the project down or substantially delay it, and there would be professional consequences if he got caught.

    He’s basically in the only-direct-physical-harm-is-real-harm camp, whereas I’m in the ignoring-people’s-clear-wishes-is-real-harm camp. I cannot figure out how to even get him to think about other people’s wishes and clearly expressed requirements. I don’t understand him, he doesn’t understand me, and I am so confused on where this kind of thinking even comes from.

    1. LGC*

      So, like…I’m not reading this so much as a consent issue as much as I’m reading it as a legal issue. I’m not a lawyer (much less an environmental lawyer), but what are the risks to your organization if things go south? (Also, do you have to submit your plans for review before implementing them? And is his plan likely to pass?)

      That might be the best approach to take with him – explain that there could be regulatory and even legal risks to you.

    2. Brownie*

      Flat out tell him that the legal limits are the bare minimum and that he himself will be the person being sued should he decide not to adhere to the legal limits. In this example it’s not something that’s up for debate in any way, shape, or form as the higher-up authority has declared the rules. If he pushes any more after that take it all the way up the chain of command since if your name is attached to something where the legal limits aren’t followed then that could have massive negative repercussions on you and your career (and your boss’s and their boss’s and so on).

      For public consent… yikes, that’s a tricky one. Maybe thinking of it more as a contract might work? The person has agreed based on a mutually agreed upon set of conditions. To violate that by not respecting the conditions agreed upon is a breach of contract as well as a breach of trust. There’s a phrase, “the violation of public trust” which might apply here.

    3. Rey*

      You are being super polite when you assume that you have to find a way to explain to him that he likes. This isn’t about what he likes; this is about what is legally required, as well as any academic policies in place at your university. It could go something like, “This is the consent process in our approved IRB protocol. If you choose not to follow the approved protocol, you put our research project and our academic standing at risk. This is not a risk I am willing to take and I will report you to (faculty mentor and/or IRB administrator).”

    4. CBE*

      Is there an ethics board that has to approve the research? If not, there absolutely should be an ethical review. If there is an external ethics review, I sincerely doubt breaking the law with subjects who don’t know and have not consented to be in the study at all will be approved.

    5. LQ*

      Yeah this is a legal issue. This isn’t about him understanding you or not, this is about him directly ignoring and willfully breaking the law. The law exists. You don’t get to decide which laws you want to follow. You follow the law. That’s how it works. I’d definitely escalate this. The project should have check points and such for this. It’s the freaking law. (I just dealt with this it went…4 or 5 levels above me and may still go higher, my counterpart wanted to say I was crushing someone’s spirit, it’s about the LAW. What about this do you not get?)

    6. Daffy Duck*

      Tell him if you don’t follow the legal requirements no reputable journal will publish the results, the peer review should catch that.

    7. LCL*

      Forget about the positive informed consent approach, for this problem that’s just noise. Tell him the legal requirements, and who enforces them, and the possible penalties for ignoring the requirements. It’s like, I could have chosen to collect a souvenir from a job site. Had I been caught, I personally could have been subject to a $100,000 fine. And I would have been fired, and subjected the company to months of bad publicity. So I didn’t do it, even though it wouldn’t have made any difference to the cause the law is supposedly helping. And conditions have changed since the law was passed and it should be revised.

    8. Thlayli*

      This isn’t about “positive informed consent”. This is about “you are breaking the flipping law.” You don’t have to convince him why the law is a good idea you just have to report him to his supervisor and yours for breaking the law.

  191. blatantlysilly*

    I’m looking at a job that requires five years of experience. If i don’t include internships, I only have a year and a half of experience. Do my internships count if I did that scope of work? Sone of my internships were paid and I was treated more as an entry level employee than an intern, and due to some really odd circumstances at my current job, I took on a lot of work above my scope, but I don’t want to overestimate my own skills and importance.

    1. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      I think if the posting listed it as 3-5 years of experience then go for it. If the posting just said “five years” specifically – well you could apply, particularly if your current and/or internship responsibilities were extremely similar. Might be a long shot, but you never know what the hiring manager will value more – the number of years of relevant experience, or just how similar the experience actually is.

      However, if the posting said “at least five years of experience”, 5+ years of experience or “5 or more years of experience”, well I won’t say definitely don’t do it, but I think it could look a bit of a touch. Sounds pretty firm that they want 5 years (or very close to it) as the bare minimum.

      Just my opinion :-)

    2. wingmaster*

      Do you meet the other job requirements? If you meet most of them, then you should apply!

      I think you should still put in your internship experience if the work you did matches the job description.

    3. Thlayli*

      If your internships in that area and paid experience in that area combined add up to 5 years then yes go for it.

  192. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

    Hmmm…. This is going to be tough to get him to understand. So I think I would go with the opposite approach.

    “Dude, it’s the law, and it is our ethics on the line. So we follow the law. Even if you are correct and we know better than the government, we don’t get to make that call on behalf of the participants. There are reasons why informed consent is a really big deal. If you don’t understand the concept of informed consent read up on the Tuskagee Experiment, because of experiments like this we need to run our experiments in the most transparent, ethical, and safest for the subjects way possible. There is no wiggle room in these requirements. We will not deviate in any way from them”

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Ooops… that was a reply to @Student and the experiment question.

  193. AnotherAlison*

    Today I was at my home office and squatting in a random cube in my department. I was near a newer employee who I don’t know, and he was whistling and singing/humming the whole freaking day. I don’t know how people deal with him. It drove me crazy the first 30 minutes I was there.

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      For some reason I first imagined that you were actually doing squats, the exercise, in someone else’s cubicle.

    2. Windchime*

      The other day, someone in my office was whistling for several hours. It was driving me mad and I finally tracked down who was doing it. It was a super nice guy who is normally not noisy at all, so I decided to just grin and bear it and he stopped after awhile. But if he had done it all day long, it would have definitely made me crazy.

  194. Kate H*

    My desk got moved again because our department head wants my supervisor to better be able to keep an eye on the newest member of our team. I’ve noticed him spending a lot of time on his phone or drawing on sticky notes or just leaving his desk for long stretches of time. Not only do I feel like I’m being punished for his lack of work ethic, but I’m now in a much noisier area of the room.

    I listen to podcasts all day but my earbuds can only go so far to block out the noise. We’re right next to customer service, my boss spends half the day talking to my coworker or his boss (often about non-work-related topics), and we’re caught between two break rooms. My boss, his boss, and my coworker have also taken up drumming their hands against their desks at random. It’s driving me up the wall. When our department first moved from our isolated hallway, my boss joked about his getting noise-cancelling headphones. I’ve been thinking a lot lately that I want to formally request them.

    1. LQ*

      Totally request the headphones. Just as a oh, you mentioned this when we moved that it was possible, the spot I’m in now is noisier so I would definitely like some.

  195. Not Maeby But Surely*

    Got a rejection email today, kinda stung for some reason, even though I wasn’t going to be able to accept the position anyway due to lack of health insurance and too low of a salary to compensate for that. I thought the wording of the email was a little odd, though: “after careful consideration, I have decided not to offer the _____ position to you.” I haven’t put myself out there to apply to many jobs yet, so I was curious, is this wording used often in rejection letters? I guess from my reading here, I was expecting to see something like, “after… consideration, we have decided to offer the position to someone we felt was a stronger candidate.” Obviously, this kind of thing is dependent on the individual in charge of the hiring, so I’m just asking for curiosity’s sake.

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’ve had similarly worded rejections before. I think it’s just a quirk of whoever wrote it.

    2. cr*

      I’ve never seen it worded that way but some people just aren’t very talented at writing. Don’t take it personally. :)

    3. Canonical23*

      Smaller companies (especially those without a strong HR presence), in my experience, don’t have a form email that they use and so they create an email off the top of their head and sometimes, if they’re rushing, they don’t phrase it well. I don’t think it’s something that you should take personally though.

    4. nep*

      I wouldn’t read anything into how they worded it–and certainly don’t take it personally. There are countless possible meanings behind what was written, and in the end it is probably just random phrasing they use routinely.
      A hiring manager where I once applied initially replied with an email that said, roughly: ‘It looks like you fit the requirements for this position’…and she requested references ‘before proceeding with an interview.’
      My references were not contacted. A week or two later I received an email from the same person that said: ‘thank you for your interest but we don’t think this is a good fit.’
      Impossible to know; I reckon I was one of many they were contacting and they selected someone in the meantime.
      Sorry about the rejection. Good luck in the search.

      1. nep*

        (And no–my references didn’t trash me then not tell me about it. I trust them when they say they were never contacted.)

  196. Archynonymous*

    So I have a really, really frustrating situation at work.

    I’m an archaeologist, working on excavating a cemetary site in a small village. Most people who live there know that there was a cemetary and possibly a church identified in the area through previous work. However, because we are dealing with human remains and want to discourage looting and metal detecting, we have been extremely vague about what we have found so far. Last weekend someone broke into the site and took photos, and decided he didn’t like what he saw. He started a facebook group to complain about the work and make various accusations about us, and called the police, who came to the site to check that we had the right to do the work. (Spoiler alert: of course we do, we’re professional archaeologists!)

    It’s legitimate to question why the planning permission was granted, but that ship has sailed and at this stage abandoning the excavation would do much more harm than removing all of the skeletons. This person has posted many poorly informed rants about our work and the actual significance of the site, and has stirred up a sizeable group who have taken up the cause of protesting about the way the excavation is conducted, even though it is evident that none of them know the first thing about it. They have all decided that my colleagues and I are …? well, I don’t know, since he talked to a colleague last week who explained that we are professionals and told him the name of our company, but he seems to think that because we aren’t Time Team or a university then we must be just some random people digging up graves for fun. They seem to think that because they have made a fuss that they have forced the local authorities to start doing things the right way, although nothing of the sort is true.

    I will be very surprised if I don’t come back Monday to find graves disturbed and holes all over the place where people with metal detectors have gone looking for treasure. It really burns me up because this guy is claiming that he just wants to protect local heritage, etc. but doesn’t seem to understand that by publicizing the site and making a big fuss he has made it much more vulnerable to damage.

    Also, I’m upset that my company has not released any kind of statement about the work, our professional qualifications, or anything else.

    1. Overeducated*

      Oooh no. What a nightmare. I hope your company and the local/state/whatever your jurisdiction’s government put some calming statements out about your qualifications and work ASAP.

    2. Courageous cat*

      Wow this sure would piss me off. You have all my sympathies. Just remember y’all are not at fault for whatever comes of this and it sounds like there’s not much you could have done to prevent it either, so if they take it upon themselves to do that, then… at least you did everything you could have done.

    3. Indie*

      YMMV,But is there any benefit to getting someone with good people skills to make them feel informed and included? I think the reasons you’ve outlined for discretion are excellent – but it may have come off as secretive. You say they dont know anything about your company, but you yourself know the company is not great at PR so how could they? People get very territorial about public land! If you asked them to make a list of concerns, how likely is it that you could satisfy those concerns with transparency? I know you say a colleague has already tried, so this may be moot. It sounds like you might distrust them with info too. Delayed transpancy is another option.. we can tell you about *finished part* of project.

  197. Sail On, Sailor*

    I just need to get this out of my system, and posting here is better than screaming it from the rooftops: My boss is an idiot.

    Thank you.

    1. cr*

      I had an idiot of a boss once… One afternoon he was screaming at me for the 100th time during a meeting (for no reason other than he was an a-hole), I closed my laptop, walked out and never came back… It felt so effing good. (I cried later though when I got to my car wondering how I’d pay my bills but found another job soon after, thank God!)

  198. Paris Geller*

    The question about cute office supplies this week reminded me–I’m in the market for a new USB hub/splitter and I’d love to find a cute one! My office one went out, and while I could get my company to replace it, I think I’d rather supply my own I can take around with me and use at home and other locations. I’m open to suggestions!

    2. wingmaster*

      Have you ever seen the toaster hub? And each slice of break is it’s own USB stick..it’s so cute!!

    3. Thlayli*

      I had one shaped like a car once that was pretty cool. Can’t remember where I got it tho. There’s loads of them about.

  199. cr*

    Ladies – how do you deal with men who ask you on a date on LinkedIn? It’s always sort of veiled like “let’s get coffee and talk about the challenges of X” and it makes me so uncomfortable. I’m in sales and I don’t want to burn any bridges for my company – some of these people work for our major clients.

    1. tab*

      Invite them for coffee in your office. That will tell you if they really want to talk business or pleasure.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Wasn’t on LinkedIn but I replied to a lunch invite from a colleague once by suggesting he join my office group for lunch (as that was my normal routine). Didn’t hear back.

  200. a q*

    Is it okay to list in your resume that you have a particular software skills when you have just watched online tutorials of how to use it, but that you have never used it at work before?

    1. Canonical23*

      I think there’s a huge difference from watching a YouTube tutorial and thinking “I get this” and taking an online course (even if it’s free!) and practicing in your spare time. I think it comes down to whether or not you could do it fairly well in an interview without preparation if they asked you. (IE – “show us how to do ____ in Excel”)

    2. HBC*

      I wouldn’t. Not unless you’ve actually used it. Watching a video is not the sane as developing a skill.

    3. Not All Who Wander*

      No, because you don’t actually have those skills.

      Think of it this way…you can watch 500 videos of dressage lessons , but that doesn’t mean you know how to ride.

    5. nep*

      No. If it comes up in a phone or in-person interview, I would mention my interest in said skill and that I’ve done online courses/tutorials out of my keen interest to learn it. But I would downplay it–not making it sound as if I think this constitutes having a proficiency the employer is seeking.

      1. nep*

        (That is, I’d mention it only if it came up specifically–if there was a moment where it fit well into the conversation. Not bring it up out of nowhere.)

    6. The New Wanderer*

      It’s like tennis – you can watch every Wimbledon match but if you’ve never picked up a racket, you haven’t played tennis.

    8. Sam Foster*

      Absolutely not. If I hire you to do ‘x’ and you can’t actually do it, I’m going to have to let you go.

  201. a q*

    Is it okay to apply for a job at a company who’s currently operating at a net loss?
    The company still has job postings and it is still operating and has large corporate clients. Is there anything else I should think through before I apply for this company?

    1. Triplestep*

      Yes, if you get an interview and they tell you about their grand plans, don’t believe them. I was brought on to do Big Things and then survived three lay-offs. I am now doing the work of the laid-off people, and the Big Things I was supposed to do are back-burned due to lack of funds. I am job-searching.

      If they want you to do something status quo, or the work of someone who left, you’re probably fine.

  202. Courageous cat*

    Alright y’all – an interview at a tech startup that’s very small and filled with men in their 20s and 30s so probably extremely chill – what do I wear? I’m thinking a suit is explicitly Too Much, however, I want them to think that I’m serious about the job (so a dress and flats might be *too* chill) but not out of touch with the culture there.

    Help.

    1. Triplestep*

      Why would a dress and flats be *too* chill?

      I had an interview at a design firm, and I wore a “design-y” long-sleeved top, wide-legged slacks (not linen, but some kind of non-wrinkle weave) and flats. Chunky hand-made jewelry. My design-professional friends approved. I think this would work in tech, but I think the dress and flats would work, too, if the dress is not too tailored.

      Good luck!

      1. Courageous cat*

        I actually don’t know. Might just be the particular dress and flats I’m envisioning in my head, haha. That sounds like it might be a good way to go – slacks and a nice blouse but not a button-up.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Might be regional. My husband interviews at places like that in the US Seattle area and wears jeans and a button down shirt and/or fleece, and sneakers. A suit would be really out of place, and a dress, depending on the style/cut, would probably be on the dressy side (wrap dress with cardi or jacket) rather than the chill side (t-shirt dress). I’ve worn dress slacks, a dressy shirt, and flats to the tech interviews I’ve had (former startups but really big companies now), which seemed about right.

      Are there any pics of the team on their website/social media? That might give insight into what’s acceptable at the office, and just go a step up from that.

  203. AnnonLurk*

    I might have missed the wave, but I have a very weird situation on my hands –

    I put in my two weeks notice. They tried to counter offer me but I was firm about not taking it. They have now come with a contract position, but their starting offer rate is barely x2 my hourly salary (and since I’ll be 1099, I’m worried that after all the expenses, I’ll be making less on this contract position) I already have a full time job set up elsewhere and I’ll be starting soon. Manager is citing that I have health insurance through the new place and I’m worried they’ll use my other job as leverage to not pay me too high. They already underpay for the going market rate in general and I don’t feel like going into a back and forth before I leave. If they don’t come back with a decent rate after I propose mine, should I just walk?

    1. Courageous cat*

      Yes, walk! It’s typically a good idea to never accept counter-offers anyway (I have done it with success, but most of this site advises you not to), and it sounds like you would be getting a little screwed on a contract role.

      Although I may be confused – would you be doing your current job as a contractor in addition to the new job? That may be different. Either way it sounds like you have some leeway and you wouldn’t be burned by turning the counter-offer down.

      1. AnnonLurk*

        I’d be doing a downsized version of what I do – without getting into specifics, about 70% of my current duties.

        It’d be about 25 hours a month while I’m doing full time work at a different company (not same industry so no non-compete violations or anything). I think my biggest concern was burned bridges but yeah, I’m already getting tired of the thought of a back and forth on my worth (they say they really need me so that’s why they’re extending a contract, but current offer is still kinda low).

        It was a gut feeling about wanting to walk if they wouldn’t really budge, so I’m glad I’m not feeling like that’s unusual. Thanks so much for responding!

        1. Courageous cat*

          So I have had similar issues a couple times with the company I accepted the counter-offer with, because I later quit, but they keep trying to get me back… and I keep having to turn them down because I’m afraid of saying yes, realizing it’s not for me (again), and firmly burning that bridge once and for all.

          So in that vein, I think if you’re not sure, it’s always smartest to end things on a really solid note than to stay part-time if you’re not fully happy with it and risk it fizzling out. Do whatever you can to keep those people on your side long-term.

          Best of luck! It’s not an easy decision to make but at least you’re in a good spot to make it.

        2. Denise*

          Just say “I’ve realized that with my new job it just won’t be sustainable for me, but thank you so much for the offer,” and run like the wind from these people who don’t really value your work.

    2. Hannah*

      You’re leaving for a reason, right? Unless you badly need the money, make a clean break. You don’t need this hassle while starting a new job.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Manager is citing that I have health insurance through the new place and I’m worried they’ll use my other job as leverage to not pay me too high.

      So they’re saying they can pay you less because you’re already getting what you need at the other job? That’s BS. I’d turn them down just on principle.

  204. Eight*

    Does anyone have any advice for finding short term job opportunities – say, working an event or something like that? I’m looking for a new full-time job as well but am not sure of exactly what direction I want to go in, and I’d like to take on a few odd jobs here and there to try out some other things and meet new people. I’m not very handy and am not looking to run errands, so I don’t think Task Rabbit is what I’m looking for. I do some freelance work for a particular company already and wouldn’t mind picking up more, but I’m finding that tough, too.

      1. Eight*

        Thank you! I knew there was a dedicated section on Craigslist but I was fixated on “etc” for some reason.

  205. ArtK*

    Late to the game… mostly looking for some sympathy.

    We’re a team of 4.1 people supporting a mission critical product for several customers. Before the current owner bought it, we had 10+ people supporting it and the customers and we were struggling. Needless to say, we’re badly overloaded. One of the 4 turned in his resignation today. Totally expected and I’m happy that he’s got something better to go to, but the load on us remaining is going to go through the roof. The company’s “solution” will most likely to assign one or more part-time offshore assets who will require days of dedicated training (thus increasing our load) at very inconvenient hours (5AM calls anyone?) In other words, the workload is going to get much worse.

    Sadly, my own search is not going well. I’ve got a possible lead (resume short-listed, but no interview yet), but it’s a contract position and I really don’t want to go into that world if I can avoid it.

    1. Triplestep*

      You have my sympathy. If it helps, when I tell potential employers about my current employer’s financial instability, and cite it as a reason for wanting to leave, I get lots of nods. The real reason I am leaving is my terrible manager, but it’s also true that I have survived three layoffs in less than a year. A job with a skeleton crew is not the same as the jobs we originally signed on for, and people get that.

      Good luck with your lead!

    2. Thlayli*

      Sympathy. Remember you can’t save the company single handed so don’t try. Do your work, do it well, do as much as you can reasonably do, and STOP THERE. Do not burn yourself out trying to bail out a sinking ship.

  206. Nicodemus*

    Hi,

    I need some help. I work at a terrible job and I’m ready to get out. Problem is, they have me enrolled in an online class through a university. I am halfway through the class, actively looking for a new gig. Should I quit before I finish the class? Would that make me look bad? I never signed an employment contract saying I needed to finish the class before I quit, but I don’t want my employers to be butt hurt and give me a bad review. Thanks for the help.

    1. Triplestep*

      If you don’t have another job lined up, then the question is moot, is it not? I would stay, finish the class, stay a bit longer, then leave once you find something better. They are going to lose money whether you finish the class or not, so you might as well finish and at least try to leave on a good note. I would look at your company policies and find out if you’ll owe them the cost of the class if you leave right after it’s done.

      They may be terrible, but using the term “butt hurt” implies that they would not have reason to be irritated at wasting money training you. It happens, but it’s a legit thing to be irritated over. You are likely burning bridges here. (I say this as someone who is actively looking for a new job since being at my current job for six months. I know I won’t leave with a referrence, but I don’t care becuase I have plenty of others from past workplaces.)

    2. nep*

      I’d say keep searching and see what happens–cross that bridge when/if you come to it. You don’t yet know the timing of interviews/job offers, so keep with the class while you’re in the current job. If you get a job offer before the class is over, that’s that–you give your notice accordingly.

    3. Hannah*

      Did they already pay for the class? This is why my company only reimburses for classes after you complete them.

      I would say that if some great opportunity comes your way, you should take it, because those only come along once in a while.

  207. Hannah*

    My boss was supposed to talk to me about something pretty important (a change in my job responsibilities). I know this, because the person whose idea it was to change my job responsibilities told me. This person is in no way my boss, but rather a friend who is slightly senior to me, but junior to my boss.

    My friend told me my boss loved the idea and would talk to me about it. But my boss did not do that. It’s been weeks. I asked my friend again what was going on with this change, and she was shocked that my boss hadn’t yet told me. She said this was already in the works with upper management, and that everyone had assumed my boss had discussed it with me. She hadn’t.

    My boss has had many opportunities to discuss it with me. She has even called me into her office for other, much less important stuff. I feel like I can’t be the one to bring it up, because even though that my boss knows my friend floated the idea by me before saying anything to anyone else, it feels weird to say “My friend told me you said you were going to talk to me. When is that going to happen?” So I tried to get my friend to remind her to talk to me, and she claimed she would right away, but that was a week ago now. This whole thing has been going on for over a month. It is really weird to interact with my boss when I know she knows I know this is going on, but she refuses to say anything to me.

    Generally, my boss and I have kind of a strained, weird relationship, where she pretends to act like she likes me (gives me good performance reviews, etc.) but refuses to advocate for any kind of advancement for me, and always tries to shoot down my ideas while listening to my colleagues’ ideas, as well as undermine the value of my contributions by weird, passive-aggressive comments.

    I really don’t want everything to be settled and decided before I’m even brought into the conversation. It feels really disrespectful not to let me have a voice in the discussion. Plus, there are some variables she has no idea about that I need to tell her about before the decision is made.

    To top it off, one of my colleagues (her favorite) had a similar, although slightly different situation crop up. And she discussed it with him right away. So it’s not like there’s some rule or protocol she is following. She’s only doing this with me.

    I’m so frustrated and I don’t know what to do about it. If she hasn’t brought it up by our next regular check-in meeting (not for another week and a half) I will bring it up myself I think, because I just can’t take this anymore. (That’s another thing–she cancelled our last check-in meeting, so I couldn’t bring it up then.)

    1. Thlayli*

      If it’s already known about by upper management can you and your friend somehow conspire to have it mentioned in front of you, perhaps in a conversation between Friend and upper management. Then you will have been told by management so you don’t have to get your friend in trouble by telling your boss you know about it.

      1. Hannah*

        My boss actually already knows that I know about it–my friend said that she mentioned it to me before she even brought the idea to anyone else, to make sure it would be something I wanted. But it’s like…she won’t acknowledge it.

        But there are a lot of details to iron out. My friend just said, “Hey would you be interested in something like this?” and I said, yes, but it’s my boss’s job to assign me work. I want to be part of the discussion that is apparently happening without me, and there doesn’t seem to be any actual reason that my boss isn’t talking to me, because when my friend asks her when she is going to talk to me, she says oh yes, I will do that. Not “I have to get approval from X first” or “I have to think about Y first.” She is saying “yes, of course I will talk to Hannah and ask her what she thinks,” but she doesn’t. My friend told me that the senior managers were under the impression my boss had talked to me and are making decisions based on that (what decisions, I don’t know), but I have yet to be part of the conversation at all.

        1. Thlayli*

          In that case I think it’s probably safe enough to go to boss and say “[friend] told me that [change] was approved at senior level. When suits you to have a meeting to discuss how that will work day to day?”

          I thought you meant your friend had told you in secret.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I would force the issue with your boss, with a smile and calm demeanor. Act as if you already know that she knows this is going on but it’s slipped your mind until just this minute that you haven’t actually talked to each other. “Hey boss, friend just reminded me that this new set of responsibilities is getting some traction with upper management. I have some thoughts about that b/c of variables. Do you have a minute to talk to me about the details you have in mind?”

      If she defers on the spot, I’d press for a set meeting time in the very near future. If she postpones that meeting, I would send a reschedule note (with the pertinent meeting info) and CC her manager. And I would keep doing that because it would be increasingly obvious to upper management that she is shirking her responsibilities re: you.

  208. wingmaster*

    I just had my 90 day review for my first job out of college. It went well and I guess I can now say I’m OFFICIALLY full-time permanent employee!

  209. amanda_cake*

    Late to the party… if you are still reading, please help me!

    New librarian in a brand new school. Two schools (a primary and a 3-5) merged and have moved into this building. We have unpacked about 250 boxes the past few days. Bookshelves just arrived, with the last shipment arriving today. All books are on the shelves and out of boxes, but I’ve hit some issues.

    The primary school used call numbers like “E A”, “F B” and the 3-5 school used “E ABA” and “F JOH”. Right now the two school’s collections are shelves separtely but I plan on relabling and mixing them together.

    Then I have graphic novels, like the Big Nate books in the fiction section from both schools, but also in 741.5. Where should I house them? There are some new ones that arrived over the summer with barcodes and spine lables already on the books (shoutout to Follett for handling that) with 741.5. I really want to have things together before school starts, but I’m getting nervous since there is SO much to do.

    1. Sparkly Librarian*

      Well, there’s a Big Nate fiction series as well as the graphic novel series. Once you’re sure which is which, I’d pull out all graphic novels into separate shelving. It’s fine for the spine label to say 741.5 so long as anyone shelving knows that they’re not interfiled in nonfiction. Our system uses a spine sticker for graphic novels and manga, for easy identification.

      Good for you for getting everything unpacked and on its feet!

    2. Loves Libraries*

      I took all of the 741 graphic novels and put them into fiction. I put a subject heading in the catalog as graphic novel and taught the kids to search that way. I also did that to novels in verse which was a trend. I took them out of poetry.

      1. Bibliovore*

        15 years school librarian.

        Shelving is about access. Doesn’t matter where you choose to shelve as long as it is constant. I interfiled graphic format in fiction, biography, science etc with a graphic format sticker on the spine.

  210. De Minimis*

    So, I got a new job! Not the one I was really expecting, it was something I applied to on Indeed. on a whim.

    I’ll be a federal contractor, and it involves moving to a nearby city. We just secured a rental today, which I think was the most stressful part of the whole thing. The contract is somewhat long term, and I’ve been told generally when it ends some other company gets the contract and the employees just switch over to the new company. Only complaint is the benefits kind of stink as far as health coverage for anyone other than the employee, so will probably be looking at marketplace plans.

    I’m finishing out my notice period and only have a few days left. I’ll really miss the people there, but not the job. They cut me to three days a week but expected the same work output as before. It’s been good this last week to think that all of this won’t be my problem much longer.

    Just glad this seems to have all worked out and that my job situation is settled at least for the next couple of years!

  211. Chaordic One*

    This week I took an online test for a customer service job. The test itself was O.K. as far as these kinds of tests go and made a reasonable effort to replicate possible situations that you’d deal with in the actual job, although I’m sure that in real life the people you’d be dealing with wouldn’t speak so clearly. I’m afraid that I did answer one question incorrectly because I didn’t understand some confusing terminology. It wasn’t a major mistake. So now I’m waiting to find out what the test results were and if I’ll move on to the next step in their hiring process.

    The really annoying things were when attempting to log into the testing website, the first thing that popped up was a notice on a couple of different browsers that their security certificate had expired and the browser didn’t want to let me go to the site. So I overrode that.

    Then I had to download “Adobe Flash” and when doing that I accidentally downloaded McAfee Security Scan Plus and McAfee Safe Connect when I missed the check marks. The Safe Connect is the worst. It is a 7-day free trial, but it keeps popping up asking me to register and try it. I don’t want it, but I can’t seem to uninstall it. Argh!

    1. vonlowe*

      If you’re on a Windows computer try going into control panel (search for this) and then programs and features. You should be able to find the program you want to uninstall in there.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Thank you, this seems to have worked. (I had previously tried going in to “Add or Remove Programs,” then “Apps and Features,” and when I activated “Uninstall” in McAfee Safe Connect it wouldn’t let me do it.)

  212. Quitter1212*

    Out of a team of 6, 3 people have recently resigned.

    I had no intention to leave but my previous employer just offered me a role with 20% payrise, further progression planned in 2 years time when others are planning to retire and more interesting work.

    I feel incredibly guilty as I told my bosses recently that I had no plans to quit, the impact will be quite high on the team and my manager has already been blamed for others leaving. I was already told I was paid well by recruiters so this other offer is an outlier.

    What is the best way to reduce the surprise and not burn my bridges? I’m unlikely to accept a counter-offer but was thinking of telling my manager that I’ve been approached and considering their offer (after receiving written contract) so I’ve been open and then formally resign a couple of days later. What do you think?

      1. Thlayli*

        Feeling guilty for moving to a new job that pays more doesn’t make sense. I know the recruiter told you you are well paid, but the fact that you (and presumably the other 3) got offered better jobs would seem to imply that the recruiter is wrong.

    2. TheTallestOneEver*

      I think you should wait until you get the offer before you say anything. And you shouldn’t feel bad. When you told them you had no plans to leave, that was the truth at that point in time.

  213. Vexed*

    Venting: I got rejected from a job I really wanted due to “lack of experience”. The guy ghosted me after the interview and I had to follow up weeks later, which was rude but whatever. He said that they were only looking to hire someone senior and if they had the option to hire and train me up they would. I took them at their word and moved on. Fast forward to this week I found out my friend was offered the role. He has no professional experience whereas I have several (albeit broken) years. We both had to take a test before being invited to the interview, he did not complete his, I did. And as the world is I can’t help but think that this small startup team of all white dudes saw this other white dude and projected more experience onto him than myself, a black women who “needs more training” to be considered. My friend, bless him was pretty upset at this, to the point of wanting to turn down the offer which is a dumb thing he shouldn’t have to do and I won’t let him. But damn am I tired of this kind of crap. Normally it’s just background noise to my job hunt, but every now and then whoop there it is.

    2. Gimme Shelter*

      So sorry to hear this! People do make misinformed judgments based on their own experiences or on someone’s physical attributes, which is silly. As a small-statured woman, I’ve dealt with these assumptions, and they are harmful and demoralizing. Bias training has opened my eyes as far as using the “good fit” criteria for hiring and wish all hiring managers would invest in this training.

    3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Oh my goodness, this sucks so much. Such blatantly obvious bias, at least from the outside looking in.

  214. Kat in VA*

    This will get buried but I need to vent…

    So, one of the jobs I’ve been waiting on has verbally made me an offer. Or I should say, has verbally felt me out about how I would feel about their offer before they put it in writing. This has been a very long, very involved, very difficult interview process that I’ve ranted about (probably too much) on AAM. Now, at the very end, after all hurdles are cleared, the issue comes with compensation.

    At the very beginning, in my first phone screen, I was asked for absolute minimum, middle , and “sign today!” in terms of hourly wage. In my case, my absolute lowest minimum BASE (this is important) I would accept was $30/hour, followed by $32/hr middling, and $35/hr is “Yikes, I’m in with you right now!” This was discussed in terms of hourly compensation only, with yearly averages ($62k to $70k) for convenience.

    I finally finally finally get all the way to “We’re planning on making you a written offer, here’s what we’re looking at” discussion…and now I’m being sounded out with, “So, we’re talking in terms of ‘total compensation’, which is wage + bonus!”

    At no point in our multiple discussions was a bonus ever discussed. There is mandatory OT, but it’s still OT, and that was not something I was told would be considered in overall comp either, just that I would need to have 2.5 hours of OT a week. Which I’m fine with, and when I did salary calculations, added that on top of the BASE amount I’d be making. (I’m unsure if OT factored into their “total compensation” figures, as the subject never came up.)

    The number they verbally presented to me was $56k + $6k bonus, say, so that it came out to $62k a year.

    Now, I’m a firm believer in bonuses being just that – a BONUS. Something that you work toward (theirs are a combo of personal + company performance), and if you get it, it’s definitely a happy occurrence. I do NOT rely on them as income, because sometimes (for factors you can’t control), bonuses don’t happen. Bonuses also don’t pay the bills on a regular monthly basis. To me, relying on a bonus is like relying on a big tax return – sometimes you don’t get them due to factors you can’t control.

    I ended up on yet another call, speaking to the recruiter and HER boss this time, and he tried everything he could to say that their offer was the same as my original base salary discussion, which it isn’t. To me, $30/hr or $62k/year was the BASE salary minimum I indicated was willing to accept…any bonus or OT was on top of that. They’re insisting that the whole salary package is the best they could do, and intensely tried to get me to say it was OK and sign off on it. I firmly, professionally, and politely noted that during the entire process, we had discussed the $30/hr as a base and nothing more was included in that. The term “overall compensation” was never even mentioned until the very end.

    I am disappointed, but stuck to the BASE number that I was originally assured was “right in line” with their salary levels for the position. I know it’s not a lot of money in reality, but there’s a fair bit of principle involved. Also, taking their offer would actually mean a $4k salary cut (from my last position) for me if I were to accept and the bonus didn’t happen. And even so, bonuses are paid in March, and mine would be prorated. So I would work there for nearly 2.5 years before I saw the full $62k, assuming I got a full bonus in 2020. And even with OT, if I were to take their offer, I would be working more hours (because of the OT) for less money.

    I’m so incredibly bummed. I don’t know if it was a deliberate attempt to mislead, as the recruiter is apparently new, but I think the “entire compensation package” discussion should have been held at the first phone screen when we discussed salary, not at the very end after all the phone interviews and in-person interviews and reference checks and, yes, a fair bit of emotional involvement on my part.

    *sigh*. Thanks for reading. I probably outed myself as this information is very specific, but I am super upset about this because after everything else I’ve endured for this process, I think switching out terms like base / base+bonus at the literal finish line was – if not shady – somewhat dishonest. I don’t think I’ll get the job, because even though it’s “only” $4k, they seemed very adamant that based on a bunch of factors, it was a good offer and I should take it because, as the lead recruiter noted, “I don’t think I can get my boss to approve those numbers.” (I almost giggled; are you offering me a job or are you selling me a Toyota Corolla?)

    Onward, and upward…

    1. Sapphire*

      I don’t have advice, but that does seem really shady to say that your named salary was something they could offer you, and then say they meant base salary plus bonuses, assuming it wasn’t an honest mistake. That would really rub me the wrong way too.

      I hope things look up for you and you get an offer that’s better!

      1. Kat in VA*

        They didn’t actually tell me to pi$$ off down the road, so I suspect there’s more flexibility in the salary than they wanted to admit. Which…I get it. Companies want to pay the least amount of money for the best workers possible.

        It *could* have been an honest mistake, but between all the phone calls and interviews, someone somewhere should have noted, “By the way, that base number we talked about, you know that includes a bonus of X%, right?” and not hit me with it at the end.

        And I’ll admit to a hurt bit of pride that their “best” offer so far is not only six thousand less than my minimum, but even all wrapped up with bonus, is the absolute MINIMUM. Meaning, in my head, I wasn’t worth even a bit more over my minimum to make me really enthusiastic about taking the position.

        Thanks for the feedback!

    2. Kathy*

      My last job was like that. My internship was ending and I didn’t really have any other prospects so when my former boss outlined it (“your base rate would be $15/hr but we get a bonus every month that’s usually x amount so over the course of a year it’ll be like $3K for you so you’d really be getting paid…”) I jumped on it because I was scared shitless of having to go back to restaurant work. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, it just really wasn’t for me. But he did that with everyone and I slowly started to see it the way that you see it, that a bonus is supposed to be a bonus and not used as an excuse to lowball me on pay (“but the bonus brings you up to market value!” No, Boss. No, it does not).

      Two years, being heavily involved in several design engineering projects despite the fact that my official title was draftsman, I was overworked, underpaid, and anxious af again. So your gut is definitely right; don’t do it!

      1. Kat in VA*

        I had to do a whooole lot of justifying for that stated minimum market value too. I got a lot of pushback on what the “market” pays in this area (which, lol, is from 35-120k a year, that’s wide range), my experience, how much their EAs currently make (which is, honestly, not my problem?). I chose in the middle, slightly on the high side because dangit, I’m worth it!

        I am super, super fortunate that I’m not in a position where I *have* to take any old offer, even if it’s somewhat close to what I want. That gives me a bargaining edge that I’m well aware other people do not have, for which I’m very grateful.

        I hope you are in a better job now where you are compensated more justly!

        1. Kathy*

          Yes, you always gotta advocate for yourself! Oh, I’m so glad that you don’t have to take the first offer that comes along, that always makes a job hunt easier.

          And I am, thank you! I ended up being recommended for a different job by a friend who also used to work at the previous company who was always pissed about how undervalued I was. He brought me in to his current company under a different department and got me almost double what the previous company was paying me. If that isn’t a mic drop moment…

          1. Kat in VA*

            Ooh, I came back to see if you *did* update to see if you’re in a better job and you are! This gives me hope for not feeling like a jerk for sticking to what I said was OK in the beginning – because they’re definitely making me feel like a jerk!

            1. Kathy*

              That’s so funny, because I came back before my little update to check and see if you updated! I was thinking to myself over the weekend, omg I hope she doesn’t take that job!

              I ended up having to change industries, but not completely, which definitely helped. And after leaving I found out just how dysfunctional the old place was. And how low the pay was across the board. They sent out a cute little “total compensation” packet every year basically outlining what it costs to the employer to employ you. We didn’t have employee contribution for insurance (which I have found out is weird… I thought that was the norm) so my “total compensation” was upwards of $65K, of which $30K was salary. They basically sent out that packet to be like, “technically you’re getting paid this much so don’t even think about asking for a raise.” It was incredibly demoralizing, and when I started current job, I spent like the first two months just in awe. This is what a normal workplace is like? Insurance costs me money now but I make enough money that I am not foregoing insurance for the sake of a slightly elevated paycheck. What. Does not compute. My poor friend had to explain everything to me! I don’t want anyone else to go through that haha, so I hope you have better luck with the job hunt!

              1. Kat in VA*

                Welp, if you’re still checking, they emailed me and told me they “tried” to get me to 60k (still $2k less than my minimum) but golly gosh gee, couldn’t do it, and by the way, we have other candidates who will take less money than you, you greedy grabby person, so seeya.

                Except I’m not greedy or grabby – I was going off what we agreed upon seven weeks ago. So I wish them luck with their lower-priced candidates and hell no, I will never interview with this company again.

                If they’re that shifty and underhanded in the hiring process which – by the way – is a TWO WAY STREET, just imagine what working there must be like???

                Don’t you love when employers try to make you feel bad about standard benefits like health insurance? LOOK HOW MUCH WE PAY TO EMPLOY YOU. To which my response is, “I’m worth every damned penny and then some!’

                I love that you’re happy and in a decent place. It gives me hope!

    3. vonlowe*

      I worked for a company where they kinda also took the bonus as guaranteed – as expected for someone earning £16k base pay (I have techincal knowledge inside a retail sales knowledge, a bit like an Apple Genius) I could be expected to also sell, do my normal expected job and also run the store as a manager. No extra pay…guess what? I am the 17th (out of 31 stores) person in my role to have left within 6 months.

      They also made the bonus terms super bitty for everyone (had a pot that was split for monthly and the quarters, which ) and I had to provide all my evidence (and create it – the sales guys get their figures generated for them, I had to input things into trackers and make slides and scan documents in) and then the head office people never look inside the files that I spent around 2-3 days total outside of work to actually produce and file/upload correctly and then also fill out the spreadsheet that’s used in the review.

  215. Sapphire*

    Hey y’all! I mentioned a couple weeks ago that I have a new job after a few months of frustrating job searches. It’s going really well, everyone is being super friendly and kind, and my pronouns are a non-issue (people are correcting themselves when they accidentally call me “she” instead of “they”).

    The only thing is that I’ve found I have some weird responses to perfectly normal things (like a weekly meeting with my boss) that I can only assume are leftover from working in a very toxic work environment. I’m good at recognizing why I’m reacting this way, but I don’t know how to stop freaking out over things like asking if we have a style guide. I know an appointment with my therapist will do me some good, but if anyone else has ever moved from a toxic to a non-toxic working environment and has any tips, I’d love to hear them.

    1. Clinical Social Worker*

      I moved from a toxic to a non-toxic work environment. I have hardcore work PTSD. I recommend exposure therapy with your therapist, journaling (bring it with you to work, write whatever you’re thinking down). If you don’t have a vasovagal response (you don’t easily faint at the sight of blood or other things) you can use the diver’s response to quickly calm yourself down. You just dunk your face in cool water to trick your body into thinking it’s a whale and your heart rate, blood pressure will both drop and you’ll feel calm (also releases a bunch of enzymes and shit, pretty neat; be a whale, it’s cool). Also visualizing yourself doing tasks you know tend to trigger you and picturing yourself doing them calmly, happily, whistling in fact! In your brain before you do them can help. You can also just notice things like “this is just my traumatized brain trying to protect me. Good ol’ lizard brain, looking out. Good thing there’s nothing scary here!”

      Anyway. Good luck. It will be rough for months probably. And that’s okay! It takes time to learn that things are safe. That’s by design. So be gentle with yourself.

  216. WebEx Questions*

    Hi. Okay, so I have a WebEx video interview for Monday. I haven’t used WebEx since 2012. Apparently it’s cloud-based now, not an app on my PC. I’m so confused. There’s WebEx, then there’s WebEx Meetings. I’d like to make sure this works before my interview on Monday but don’t think there’s a way to do that. Should I just assume I click on the link in the interview email and hope it takes me to the right place? With Skype there’s a way to test your video and audio, and I don’t see anything like that in the WebEx online tool. I’m not even sure what my questions are, maybe I’m just a Nervous Nellie and everything will come out okay. Sigh. Thanks.

    1. tab*

      I use webex. Just click on the interview link a few minutes early, and you’ll be able to test your video and audio before the interview starts. I recommend using earbuds so there’s no audio feedback. Good luck on the interview!

    2. Someone else*

      Go to this link: https://www.webex.com/test-meeting.html
      It’s the standard WebEx test meeting. If you want to make sure you’re all set in advance, do it well before the scheduled meeting time, like at least an hour before. That way if you have problems, you can work them out without feeling like if it’s not done within 5 minutes you’re screwed. If the test meeting goes fine from the computer/headset you’ll be using during the real thing, then it should be fine during the real thing. I also recommend when it comes to interview time, try joining a couple minutes early. You won’t be able to unless the organizer actually starts the meeting early, but I tend to. That also gives you a couple of minutes to get situated in the meeting before start time, instead of the organizer seeing you pop up in the meeting as “connecting…” and then potentially waiting while you get into audio, etc, at the meeting starting. If you are a Nervous Nellie, just getting started and ready that short moment earlier, if you can, so when it hits start time you’re already There And Ready might make you feel better.

    3. Someone else*

      Oh, also, since you can’t really test this in advance without another human on the other side: decide if you’re going to use computer audio or phone in advance. Sometimes folks manage to be on the phone for talking/mic purposes but have their computer audio on and you can end up in an infinite feedback loop with both sources going. Not fun. So I’d say, avoid speakerphones altogether, but also if you’re calling in, mute your computer audio before you call. Or if you have a USB headset, just use computer audio. But most computer mics+speakers will sound terrible if you’re using it during the meeting, so if you don’t have a headset, consider not using computer audio.

  217. Wes*

    Looks like I’m coming in at the end here, but I wanted to ask a question. Maybe will email it in if this doesn’t get any replies.

    I’m a new manager, and I had to fire someone for the first time a few months ago. He’d only been at the company for two months, and it was obvious he wasn’t a good fit, in either skills or attitude. He himself admitted this at the exit interview. That was in April.

    But recently, one of the guys on my team went to a wedding where the brother of the person we let go was also a guest. Work came up, and the brother said he’d been told that the person we let go had quit because their boss kept casually using racial slurs at work.

    I haven’t heard anything about the person we let go since he left, except for this. His LinkedIn says he’s employed somewhere else now. Since he has a new job, and we haven’t heard anything else from him, my guess is that he made up the racism story to save face with his family, rather than admit he was fired. So while I’m unhappy about this, I’m willing to let sleeping dogs lie. But, I have a lingering doubt about whether that’s the best decision. I’ve considered asking my direct report if he would be willing to tell HR what the person we let go is saying about me, but I would appreciate guidance on how to do this.

    1. Saturday is Here*

      I would just let sleeping dogs lie on this one. You as the manager speaking to one of your direct reports about another employee is usually a no-no situations. Some employers even have policies about these type of situation.

      1. Wes*

        Thanks for confirming my suspicion on this one. I don’t see any way to reopen the subject with him, that would allow me to seem something aside coercive or retaliatory.

        Since we let this person go, we haven’t heard anything at all from them. If the fired person had any complaints about me, HR would definitely have interviewed me. Their social media presence is very bland; they don’t mention anything about work and don’t even mention their employer on the bio. I’m almost 100% sure they came up with the racism story to avoid having to tell people they were fired. I’m unhappy about it but I don’t think it will hurt me.

        Again, thank you.

  218. Triple Anon*

    I worked for a well known company with a cool factor, a certain image, and a stigma in certain circles (its own industry and related ones). I did impressive things there. But I’m finding it to be a bit of a hurdle for a few reasons.

    1) It paints a picture of me as a certain kind of person. I happen to look like that kind of person in some ways, but it’s pretty much the opposite of who I am (which is probably partly why they hired me and why it didn’t work out).

    2) People who are in my industry and share my views tend to frown upon this company. Having it on my resume looks bad to our crowd. Conversely, outside of the industry, it attracts some fan types who put me on a pedestal and think I’m semi-famous because I worked there, which is nice, but I really don’t want to be known for working there. That’s discouraging me from applying for as many jobs as I would otherwise.

    3) The things I’ve done since I left look silly without further context, some of which is just not appropriate for the job application process (dealing with a stalking situation and other stuff that affected my choices).

    Networking and explaining everything in person would help in theory, but I haven’t had much time to network, and when I have, I haven’t been successful in communicating who I am and how it’s different from how I come across at first and on paper.

    I’ve tried writing really good cover letters that put a positive angle on everything and showcase my personality and way of thinking.

    But no luck so far. And I can’t leave it off of my resume because it’s impressive and I learned a lot from it. I think it was actually a very good experience to have, but, grr, I am not a flaky and fashion-obsessed 25-year-old.

    PS – Weirdly, this company’s image seems to throw off the entire resume reading experience for a lot of people. They miss all the clues to my age (graduation dates and long work history). They miss the fact that other employers have been very different types of companies. I don’t know what to do about that except to make clear statements in my cover letter that convey my age range and general background . . . But that only works if they read the cover letter!

    I’m partially just venting, but I could also use some advice.

    1. Triple Anon*

      I just re-read this and it sounds very whiny / first works problems. I know it’s a good problem to have. I’m just stressed about it for a number of reasons.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Your situation kind of sucks, but there isn’t a whole lot that you can do about it. It sounds like you mention this previous employer in your resume because you kind of have to, but you’ve moved on to other things and now have other work experiences as well. Unfortunately, well-known company is going to turn off some people and close a few doors. Since it might be a bit of a problem, you might consider reducing the focus of what you did at well-known company and emphasize what you did in the jobs you’ve had since you worked elsewhere.

      In your cover letters you might consider them being less about you demonstrating your personality and way of thinking. Instead, focus on the job you are applying for and how your previous work experience (and education) will help you do that job. I know this sounds silly, but parrot back the things listed in the job description in both your letter and your resume.

      Then, when you get an interview, after you’ve made it clear that you can do the job, let them see your personality. Not so much with H.R. people who are probably just screening applicants, but especially when you meet the person who will be supervising you, or if it is a group of people you will be working with.

  219. Barry*

    How soon is too soon to follow up with an employer? I had an interview three weeks ago and was told I was one of three finalists. I also know the last interview is this coming Tuesday. In between my interview and today I was offered another position. I was laid off earlier this year so I need a job. However, the offer I have is not a job I’m thrilled about but it is better than nothing. It starts in 3 weeks. How soon is too soon to follow up with the place I had the interview without seeming too pushy or desperate? The job I am waiting on is the job I really really want. My dream job actually. I’m just scared of putting them off or having them pull me out of the running if I tell them I have another offer. (I will also note I’ve been a finalist 6 times with no luck so my self esteem isn’t too hot right now.)

  220. Specialk9*

    I think if it were their first time dealing with this, Loralei would be a lot calmer. But instead it’s a strong emotional parallel of seeing someone in that exact same state, who died, and was, importantly, their father. So lots of echoes of trauma.

  221. bacon tastes good*

    Exactly, we do NOT HAVE TO DESIRE TO EAT MEET to you, We Work. Every employee who is ont a veggie-nut needs to say to the CEO, “we’ll stick a boot up your as s, it’s the American way” and sucker punch the guy. And then go out for a stake and beer.. this sounds ike one o those hipster caliornia nutso companies let them bring this crap to texas….

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