open thread – July 6-7, 2018 by Alison Green on July 6, 2018 It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers. * If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue. You may also like:your coworkers are very dramaticmy coworker keeps demanding I say "please"the Ask a Manager guide to asking for a raise { 1,584 comments }
June* July 6, 2018 at 11:03 am I perform research as a component of my job, and would like to eventually be able to do any needed statistical analyses independently (rather than having to rely on our in-house statistician who often has many projects at once). In particular, does anyone have any recommended resources for learning how to perform multivariate analyses?
epi* July 6, 2018 at 11:22 am I would really recommend taking a class. The basic methods you would probably want to use aren’t that hard, but it can take a while to wrap your head around them and it helps to understand some of the math– it will help you understand the connections between different statistical methods and choose appropriately. Plus, if you haven’t had much exposure to programming it is easier IMO to learn in a classroom environment. They’ll give you example code which can be extremely useful, and you’ll pick up the language better if you are given a project to apply it to. The good news is, if you choose your classes wisely you should only need a couple. For things more advanced than that, you will still want to kick the analysis to an actual statistician anyway. If you’re at a university or an organization with a relationship to a university, see if you can take a couple courses that way. I highly recommend intro biostatistics courses if you can access them– they are very geared towards people in other fields who will be doing applied statistics. Depending on your field, there may also be a “statistical methods for us” type class in the relevant department. Those can be a great choice because you will probably be learning in the statistical language/environment that is actually favored in your field. If you are looking to lighten the load on your statistician, do your own initial power and descriptive analyses, interpret what they send back to you, and generally be a bit more self-sufficient with the methods that many researchers in your field tend to do for themselves, biostats or “stats for us” are great choices. Finally, data science bootcamps are a thing now. I can’t speak to the quality of any of them! But many organizations that offer those do have one-off classes that are really tightly focused on getting you up and running with a given popular statistical method. This would be the fastest way, but likely the most expensive (no financial aid, not necessarily eligible for tuition reimbursement by your employer) and least tailored to researchers’ needs and preferred languages.
Violet* July 6, 2018 at 7:34 pm I’m going to second this, especially if your previous exposure to statistics is limited. Your local community college may offer a low-cost introductory statistics class (check in the psychology and/or political science departments for a non-calculus-based one). Many universities also offer certificates online that have statistics classes in them. If you grasp math pretty easily, then the MOOC route may work out well.
periwinkle* July 6, 2018 at 11:23 am Check Udemy/Coursera/Udacity for courses on stats. Udemy has frequent sales – never pay full price there when they regularly offer “any course for $10” deals. Does anyone actually pay full price for Udemy? Hmm. But anyway… I would not have wanted to tackle multivariate analysis without a structured course and someone to point out what I’m doing wrong. MANOVA isn’t difficult but when you start getting into factor analysis, it’s very cool but challenging.
Business Manager* July 6, 2018 at 11:23 am I took a stats class for grad school a year ago ish & our professor had us read the book Naked Statistics: Stripping the Dread from the Data by Charles Wheelan which was helpful for big picture and interesting to boot. We also used an online learning thing that I now have completely forgotten. I’ve been doing a free course on sql on datacamp and I’m betting they’ll have some stuff on there around teaching statistics as well.
Is pumpkin a vegetable?* July 6, 2018 at 11:54 am That sounds really interesting! I just ordered it from the library, thank you!
Sally* July 6, 2018 at 12:10 pm +1 for that book. I read it while I was taking a intro to stats class for grad school last semester, and it really helped reinforce what I was learning.
Virginian* July 6, 2018 at 11:42 am See if a library near you subscribes to Lynda.com. Lynda may have video tutorials about multivariate analyses.
HRM* July 6, 2018 at 12:43 pm I was going to say the same thing. Lynda helped me a lot during grad school.
JustaTech* July 6, 2018 at 11:51 am I’ve taken biostats (a subset of statistics for the life sciences) from Udemey, Udacity, Coursera, EdX and (as part of a master’s degree) Berkeley. I had a hard time with a lot of probability (statistics were easier), so I found taking several classes from different teachers was really helpful. I also keep my undergrad stats textbook on my desk for when I want to check on something. The help forums for whatever software you’re using (assuming it’s not Excel) can also be helpful to know when to use which type of analysis. Good luck!
A tester, not a developer* July 6, 2018 at 12:00 pm I agree with epi. My university offers a course called ‘Statistics for the Social Sciences’ that I’ve found to be really helpful over the years.
frequent reader* July 6, 2018 at 12:03 pm I don’t know how strong your stats background is, but definitely look into what you can get access to through your local library (mine has Lynda for sure) and what your employer might be willing to pay for. R is a very common statistical analysis software because it’s open source/free but it’s also got a bit steeper of a learning curve. That being said there are a lot of resources for using it online. The Knight Center is about to launch an intro class on R designed for Journalists so that might be something to look into? https://knightcenter.utexas.edu/blog/00-19845-learn-how-find-great-stories-data-register-now-free-online-course-intro-r-journalists
grace* July 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm What everyone else has said — make sure you modify according to your learning style. For example, I learn best by talking through things and then DOING them, so taking an online course for me without someone next to me wasn’t helpful. I personally use STATA, and I was horrible at SPSS — so don’t be afraid, if you can, to try out different softwares. They each have their own way of doing things, but one may resonate with you more.
Violet* July 6, 2018 at 7:23 pm Stata, in my opinion, is a perfect middle ground. It’s syntax (which is so much easier for intermediate to advanced users than SPSS’s GUI-based system) but the syntax is pretty simple and makes sense, so it’s easier to learn than SAS or R.
Darcy* July 6, 2018 at 12:44 pm Statistics with Microsoft Excel by Beverly Dretzke provides details about how to perform the operations in Excel, and high-level information about what the results mean and is a good starting point. I also found Naked Statistics to be helpful (and an easy read), and one other really good read that helps to explain why we use the different methods and what they mean is The Signal and the Noise by Nate Silver.
MichaelM* July 6, 2018 at 2:07 pm Learn to use SAS statistical software. If is now GUI driven and is in every Fortune 500 company. A great skill for your resume. Licences are not cheap, but worth it.
AshK413* July 6, 2018 at 2:40 pm Don’t SAS licenses cost almost $10K? I would stick with R or Python since they’re just as popular (if not more so) and are free.
MissElizaTudor* July 6, 2018 at 3:34 pm SAS University Edition (link in my name) is actually free to use for noncommercial purposes, like learning how to uses SAS!
Jerry Vandesic* July 6, 2018 at 7:28 pm I am going to disagree with using SAS as a foundation for a career. I say that as someone who managed over 1000 SAS licenses at a previous company, and paid over $10M/year in license fees to SAS. That being said, SAS has lost much of it’s market impact over the past decade. I do have some people currently working for me who use SAS, but when looking for new hires I look primarily for people with Python and R. They are much more modern data analysis tools, and they will continue to eat away at SAS’s market influence. My only caveat to that statement would be if you work in a regulated industry (e.g., pharma) where government regulations carve out a preference for working in SAS; in that case you might want to stick to SAS, but understand that if you step out of that field you will not have the same foundation to rely upon.
Violet* July 6, 2018 at 7:31 pm Ehhh. Not all Fortune 500 companies use SAS. I learned how to use SAS in graduate school, and I now work at a Fortune 500 company doing statistical analysis and never use it. I use SPSS and R more frequently. Honestly, I don’t think it really matters what statistical program you start with. It’s kind of like a programming language in that sense – once you learn one, it’s far easier to learn a new one; it’s just figuring out how the syntax works (or the GUI).
StellaBella* July 6, 2018 at 2:18 pm I recommend Andy Field’s books and website https://www.discoveringstatistics.com as am doing multivariates now for my thesis on a huge data set. I am using SPSS now and have used R and his books are great.
periwinkle* July 6, 2018 at 2:45 pm Yes to Andy Field! I took multivariate statistics and we used his text on stats & SPSS, and I’ve also picked up his book on designing and reporting experiments. Field’s book is sometimes better at indexing his fun examples than stats terminology, but that’s a relatively minor quibble.
Murphy* July 6, 2018 at 11:03 am 2 years ago I joined a mentoring program through a professional organization. At our yearly conference, I met with my mentor + one of her colleagues and had a good conversation. I feel really bad about this, but I never followed up with her after the conference to say thanks for the conversation or anything. I kept meaning to do it…I have no good excuse, time just got away from me. She also never reached out to me, so I haven’t spoken to her since. The next year I didn’t attend the conference for personal reasons. I did attend this year’s conference a few months ago, and saw her across the room, but I was too embarrassed to say anything. (I am made of social anxiety.) I have no idea if she saw me. I was invited along with a bunch of other people to be a part of a committee through this organization. We haven’t had a teleconference yet, but we were assigned to different task teams. My former mentor is the lead on the team that I was assigned to. How do I navigate this situation? Should I reach out to her and apologize?
LadyByTheLake* July 6, 2018 at 11:10 am I am not sure a true “apology” is in order, and certainly embarrassment is not called for. More of a “It’s so good to see you. I got so busy that I did not have a chance to circle back after our last conversation. I wanted to thank you for [Point out specific example of something helpful she said, if you can]. How have you been?”
AnnStanSam* July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am If I were you, I wouldn’t apologize, but it might be nice to reach out and mention that you enjoyed your conversation a couple of years ago and look forward to working with her.
Amber T* July 6, 2018 at 11:35 am I agree with LadyByTheLake and AnnStanSam – I wouldn’t really apologize, but reach out beforehand and thank her for the conversation, that you’ve thought about it or referenced it since, you’re eager to work with her again, etc.
Naptime Enthusiast* July 6, 2018 at 11:50 am I don’t think you need to harp on the apology, you can say something along the lines of “I’m excited to work with you! I’m sorry we didn’t get a chance to chat at the last convention”, and see how she replies. But I would definitely acknowledge your mentoring relationship in some way when you get started. I’ve had mentees through organizations that haven’t followed up afterwards, but when they have reached out much later I was happy to chat with them. I didn’t expect them to follow up though, especially those that are just out of school. Life happens.
Deryn* July 6, 2018 at 11:57 am I don’t think I would apologize, but I would think that reaching out to reconnect a bit before you start working together again would help alleviate any awkwardness you feel (I say this as a fellow ball of social anxiety). You could definitely light-heartedly acknowledge that you haven’t talked in a long time. Maybe an email with something along the lines of, “I saw that I was assigned to your team – I’m really glad we’ll be working together again, and it made me realize we haven’t had a chance to catch up in a while! Last time we talked at [conference], your [comments/advice/whatever] about [topic] were really helpful with [whatever]. How has [project/committee/other thing she’s involved with] being going for you lately?” You’d obviously want to adjust the wording to take into account how close your relationship with her is and any details or industry specifics. It’s totally normal to lose touch with people! My preferred way to handle that is to just lightly acknowledge it without giving it too much weight (even if I internally feel ashamed or guilty about it) and go from there. She’ll probably be glad you reached out, and this way you can start off your work together on a cheerful note.
Murphy* July 6, 2018 at 12:22 pm Thanks everyone! This is helpful. I’ll think about wording to reach out before we start work but not necessarily apologize.
The Curator* July 6, 2018 at 2:46 pm As someone who had mentored through a professional organization, I am here to say. Don’t worry about it. On the other hand, I would be super pleased that you were appointed to the committee (fruits of my labor). I would be over the moon if you publicly acknowledged ( you know on the conference call or meeting during introductions, Good to hear The Curator and to be on this committee) how helpful the mentorship program was and even though I hadn’t heard from you in a while (life) how much my being there for you as a mentor informs your work/position. I am that person at conferences when someone says hey did you hear about Daria getting the prestigious appointment to the Teapot Science committee, I get to say why yes, as her Teapot Association Mentor, I am the one who suggested that she complete her degree at The Urban Lear Technological Institute and helped her get that Earl Grey Grant.
MomToBe…Maybe* July 6, 2018 at 11:03 am TL;DR VERSION: After 5 years, Not So Great Job turned into Toxic Job and I quit, was out of work for 6 months, then started working part time. I don’t want to work anything more than part time with a short commute because we are planning to have kids within the next year or so. Husband is pressuring me to work a high-paying “city job” so he can quit his Kind of Crappy almost 6-figure salary job and change careers. The idea of working full time and caring for a child is making me nauseous, and not what we previously agreed upon (since we can financially afford for me to work less, but only if he stays at his current job). How do I get him to see that if I’m going to be the primary caregiver (which is what we previously agreed upon and I am literally thrilled about!!!), that I can’t be expected to work crazy long hours? VERSION WITH THE JUICY DETAILS I worked at Not So Great Job for about 6 years. My position changed in year 4 and I got stuck with Horrible Boss as I went into year 5. Not So Great Job turned into Toxic Job and I quit without anything lined up. I was out of work for 6 months, and now I’m working part time (receptionist/data entry type stuff). My husband isn’t particularly fond of his job, but he has no other employment background. Think like a being a security guard for 10 years and not wanting to do it anymore, but you’ve never having another job type (no retail, office work, food service, handy-man skills, etc.). If he were to change fields, he would most likely receive a drastic drop in pay. I’m pretty sure he still resents that I quit Toxic Job and he’s stuck at Kind of Crappy Job. I’ve tried to explain that at least he makes good money: 3 to 4 times as much as I do. I’ve also tried to explain that that in my case Horrible Boss was about 10 feet away from me for 8-10 hours a day/5 days a week. Because his job requires being in different rooms of Home Base, working in multiple buildings, and working 1st, 2nd, or 3rd shift, he can get away from Captain Doo-Doo Head, who usually works 1st or 2nd shift and stays in his office at Home Base. I see a glimmer in his eye when he talks about me getting a get a “city job” and “moving up the corporate ladder” (which I don’t want at all). I’m thinking he’s saying that so I can make more money and he’ll have more leeway in getting another (lower-paying) job. I get where he’s coming from, but he doesn’t understand how much a change like that would affect our hopefully soon-to-be-growing family. I know a “city job” expects that you work at least 8 hours a day plus an at least a 1-hour commute each way; it seems like I’d be “working” 12 hours a day at a minimum. If we’re going to have kids within the next year or so, I’m picturing being out of the house for 12 hours and then getting baby from daycare, play-time, feedings, cleaning the house, laundry, bath-time, bedtime – my head is spinning! When he works overnight shifts during the week, I don’t really see him for 2 to 3 days. I can’t imagine being at work all day and with baby all night, and not having any help for days at a time! I’ve mentioned how I’d much rather stay at home with baby than work and pay for childcare, or work part time or even work from home if I could, which he seemed to agree with, but I feel like he’s still hoping I’ll come around to the idea that me getting a full time job and using daycare wouldn’t be “that bad.” We will need to budget a little better, but we can financially afford for me to work less, but only if he stays at his current job or gets a job with the same salary. How do I get him to see that if I’m going to be the primary caregiver (which is what we previously agreed upon and I am literally thrilled about!!!), that I can’t be expected to work crazy long hours?
ThatGirl* July 6, 2018 at 11:08 am Sooo I think there are a few things going on here. And I thought about rambling on for awhile, but I think it comes down to this: He’s allowed to not be happy with his job, and he should maybe look for a new one. That doesn’t mean /you/ need to get a new job. I think you guys need to have a long talk (maybe with the help of a counselor?) about how you both feel about your careers/job prospects, what he wants for himself, what he and you want for your family, and how that all meshes.
GRA* July 6, 2018 at 11:11 am Second the counselor suggestion. This seems like a lot that the two of you need to work through – big life change choices! – and some professional guidance and a safe space to discuss it might be useful.
MomToBe…Maybe* July 6, 2018 at 11:38 am I did mention couples counseling, but he basically said therapy is for neurotic losers who are willing to throw their money away to pay someone to sing Kumbaya with them or tell them to count to 10 when they get mad. I’d hate to turn this into a Big Thing, but I think I might have to. Any advice on that part?
ThatGirl* July 6, 2018 at 11:45 am Go on your own, then. You guys clearly need better communication skills, and if he won’t go, at least you can get a start on building better skills for yourself. Honestly, that’s a super childish response, and would make me think twice about having kids with him.
GRA* July 6, 2018 at 1:34 pm Third for going on your own! Therapy is a wonderful thing IMO – it can give you the skills you need to help deal with specific problems, and it’s great to have time to talk to a neutral/non-judgmental party about problems (and usually actually get solutions to those problems).
The Dread Pirate Buttercup* July 6, 2018 at 3:14 pm Fourth. Sounds like you need another voice on Team You.
Saskia* July 7, 2018 at 1:30 am Sixth recommendation for going to therapy on your own. I think this is a relationship and communication problem first and foremost. I can’t emphasize strongly enough that these issues won’t go away without attention. Please seek some help for yourself. Don’t do what my sister did – her SO refused to go to counselling of any kind, and he ridiculed her for suggesting individual therapy. Sister didn’t seek therapy and instead conceded to SO whenever they reached an impasse. She’s now the mother of 2 young children, her original problems with SO have intensified, and she feels trapped and exhausted. I’m mentioning this because her SO was also dissatisfied with his job, resented the idea of paid work, yet didn’t take any significant steps to find something he could tolerate or enjoy. My sister retrained to find a higher-paying job and is now supporting the entire family for the foreseeable future. She didn’t want to work full time outside the home when planning life with children. But she felt so much pressure from SO that she didn’t get support for herself before making big life decisions. BTW, her SO is still not a happy person even though he is not working for money!
MomToBe…Maybe* July 6, 2018 at 11:46 am I hope that doesn’t sound too awful! He’s a really sweet guy, but he’s not really into talking deeply about “feelings” as it tends to make him uncomfortable.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 12:02 pm It’s pretty hard to have a successful marriage without talking about feelings at some point. Especially during life transitions or other times that things are hard. My spouse was kind of guarded about his emotions as well, but we did a round of couples counseling while we were engaged to work on communication, and it seemed to help him understand that counseling isn’t about wallowing in your FEEEEEEEEELINGS or talking about your dreams or whatever. And it was a good goddamn thing, too, because by our first anniversary his health went completely to shit and both of our careers were disrupted. That work we did before marriage let us stay married, and now that things are stabilized we’re doing another round of counseling to build on it. Right now you’re worried about hypotheticals – a pay cut that may or may not happen, a baby that isn’t even a twinkle in anyone’s eye – but it seems like you have an actual problem in your marriage that you’re not addressing. I would focus on that. And don’t get pregnant.
aebhel* July 6, 2018 at 1:34 pm Yeah. I don’t really like talking about feelings. My spouse doesn’t like talking about feelings. But there’s a point at which you need to be able to have a conversation about how you want things to go without just sort of sending vague resentful vibes at your spouse and hoping they’ll read your mind. It doesn’t come easily to everyone, but it’s a skill that everyone NEEDS to have.
Jersey's mom* July 6, 2018 at 1:44 pm +1million. Do not get pregnant now. You both need resolution before bringing a baby into this situation.
skunklet* July 6, 2018 at 1:45 pm Yeah, my husband can be an absolute @$_hole (to me, to others, etc) but he apologizes and has always stated that if we need to, he WILL go to counselling, which is endearing as all get out for me and one of the reasons that we’re in it for the long haul. If he won’t go, go yourself. But yes, there’s issues here more than just a job…
Naptime Enthusiast* July 6, 2018 at 12:08 pm My sister in law’s Ex Husband felt the same way. There are many reasons why he is Ex Husband, but his refusal to have these difficult conversations, with or without a counselor, is one of the top reasons. I do understand there is still a stigma about going to a counselor, but it doesn’t need to just be about feelings. You have some difficult decisions to make and different opinions about how they should be handled, and having a mediator help you work through them is not a bad idea.
GRA* July 6, 2018 at 1:36 pm I know that there is still a stigma around therapy … which surprises me, because whenever I’m in a group of people and therapy comes up, it seems like EVERYONE is or has been to counseling.
Daniela* July 6, 2018 at 12:31 pm I think this is one of those situations where he doesn’t get to stay in his comfort zone. If you both want a child, then it’s time for him to open up and consider other points of view. I’m sure you can find a compromise if you talk it through calmly and sensibly. Good luck to you both!
Artemesia* July 6, 2018 at 12:32 pm He has pretty clearly expressed his feelings that he doesn’t want to be the pack mule in the marriage working long hours at a job he doesn’t like so you can work part time. This is a reasonable position to take. You want him to agree with you. This is not ‘better communication’ –he has communicated just fine. So the next step is to talk with him not about his ‘feelings’ which he has made quite clear but about alternative strategies for both of you having a satisfying life of work and family. Are you willing to lower your standard of living to continue to work part time? Does he have reasonable career change options. It isn’t going to be easier to manage all this once a child is in the mix. And day care is hellaexpensive.
Jesca* July 6, 2018 at 2:07 pm I think she gets that this is what he is saying. I think what she asking for is a way to talk it through with him, because she has valid points against what he is suggesting based on previous discussions of the future. You cannot really have kids if you are literally both gone all the time. You need to have that primary. Daycare centers will not keep your kid past 9 to 10 hours. So on and so forth. She understands what he is saying, she doesn’t know how to get through to him that most of what he is saying is not feasible. This is where communication is key, and it is exactly where he is actually not participating in it all. I recommend going to a therapist alone. If he is going to call you names if he knows, then make it secret (because that is kind of abusive if he does). In this way, as others have said, you will at least be able to find ways to make decisions for yourself and find solutions for yourself on how to navigate your marriage with your husband.
DArcy* July 6, 2018 at 8:42 pm He wants her to work full time with a long commute AND be the primary caregiver for their planned child. That is grossly unreasonable.
Working Hypothesis* July 8, 2018 at 7:49 pm He has communicated what he wants. So far, either she has been unable to communicate what she wants, or else she’s communicated it and he has refused to hear it (it’s unclear from the story which one it is). Either way, this is a good reason for her to get counseling to help her communicate what she wants to him. If the problem is that she hasn’t managed to communicate in the first place, that will help. If the problem is that he’s trying actively to avoid listening because he doesn’t like what she’s saying, then communication training will help her figure out what to say in response to that information. Either way, it’s useful. Momtobemaybe, I umpteenth the strong recommendation not to get pregnant until you two have worked out together a joint plan for your collective careers which will not leave either of you exhausted, miserable, and resentful of your spouse. That’s not a situation into which you want to bring a baby; it will be bad for the baby and make things much harder for both parents. Wait till you have figured out a plan which will let EACH of you do something with your careers which feels at least okay, and you’ve gotten started on implementing that plan. Right now, it sounds like both of you are looking at the career situation as a zero-sum game… “I need X to do Job They Don’t Want, so that I can avoid doing Job *I* Don’t Want.” That is not necessarily true, and to the extent that it may be partially true, it’s a bad situation into which to become parents. Work together to find ways you can *each* get what you want, at least to some degree, or else somebody’s going to simmer with resentment all the time, which is a terrible thing for a marriage. Maybe you can delay the baby for a while so he can make his career change and become established in a new field first. Maybe you can figure out something he can do within the field he’s in which he’d like better than his current job. Maybe you can figure out a job you can do which pays better than your current one but which is compatible with baby care. Maybe he can switch into a field which allows him to be home every evening, and then you don’t have a “primary caregiver,” but you both share the childcare, which allows you to both work full-time also. Maybe there’s something else altogether. I don’t know all the circumstances… you do and so does he, so you’re the ones who have to work on it. But the absolute first thing you have to do is to put baby plans on hold until you’ve resolved this. And the second thing you have to do is to stop looking at this as “you against me” and start thinking of it instead as “you and me against the problem.”
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 11:47 am A competent counselor does not do those things, but thanks for the visual! Clearly, you aren’t on the same page anymore (if you ever were) and the only way to resolve it is through open and honest communication. Sometimes it helps to have a third party. If he won’t do that then you just have to get him to talk and you have to do the same. That you quit without another job lined up could be a bit of an issue for him, especially now that he wants to do something similar and you are nixing it. Maybe you could work a better paying full time job while you save money and move toward family building?? Maybe that would give him a chance to rebuild in another industry?
Juli G.* July 6, 2018 at 11:51 am Honestly, in my experience, for two parent families, there is no Bigger Thing than division of duties. Turn it into a Big Thing now before there are real kids involved.
Justme, The OG* July 6, 2018 at 1:45 pm Agree. If it’s not taken care of now, one parent (usually the mom, because society sucks that way) takes on almost everything and then rightfully cannot take it any more.
aebhel* July 6, 2018 at 1:55 pm YES. This is not going to just blow over, and it’s something you guys need to be on the same page about BEFORE there are kids involved.
neverjaunty* July 6, 2018 at 11:54 am 1) It is already a Big Deal. 2) You can’t make him see what he doesn’t want to see. From what you’re describing here, your husband doesn’t have a realistic understanding of how having kids will impact your career, and he doesn’t much care – he just wants you to take the burden of his crappy job off him AND manage the primary burden of caretaking. Also, he has a dumb and shitty attitude about therapy. I guess you could be very blunt with him? “It isn’t fair or reasonable for you to expect me to have a demanding job AND be the primarily caretaker for the children. And it isn’t fair for you to expect me to shoulder a heavy burden at a career path I don’t want because you dislike your job.”
Lyka* July 6, 2018 at 12:00 pm It’s your family and your family’s future (and your happiness/well-being and that of your husband’s). Those are all Big Things already, so finding a better way to deal with them is smart! Maybe hubbie can think of counseling in this situation as akin to seeing a financial planner. It’s someone who has objective insights into what family planning can look like in its various forms and someone with expertise coordinating communications between two parties with differing ideas. Plus, your husband may even get more of what he wants if you’re both willing to speak openly about your family/work dreams and fears. And, like a financial planner, a counselor isn’t someone you need to see every week for the rest of your lives! It’s someone who will help set you up with a plan for the future so you can both feel confident about starting your family from a place of security and honest partnership. And remember, you should try go into any counseling open minded about what the ultimate outcome could be. It shouldn’t be counseling for the sake of you achieving your perfect family balance while your husband continues forward in a situation he’s unhappy with. Maybe there’s a good compromise you’re missing, or a perspective neither of you have considered from the other’s point of view. A counselor can help bring that to the fore and hopefully clear up miscommunication and hurt feelings. Good luck to you!
Pro Counceling* July 6, 2018 at 12:13 pm At one point I would have said the same thing about couples counseling, but before my husband and I got married, our church required counseling. I actually saw some great benefits to it even though we were only required to attend the minimum sessions. However, you cannot make him go. I second seeking individual counseling. There is a lot going on and you both need to be on the same page BEFORE having children or things will only get worse. GL!
New Job So Much Better* July 6, 2018 at 1:37 pm Is it possible he really is indicating he’s not ready to have kids?
Autumnheart* July 6, 2018 at 3:33 pm Well, he’s certainly indicating it whether that was his primary motivation or not.
LKW* July 6, 2018 at 12:20 pm Well clearly he’s talking out of ignorance and not knowledge. Couples counseling is for people who are unable to communicate and continue to approach the same argument from the same perspective. So until he’s actually tried it -he really can’t provide adequate perspective. It’s like saying you don’t like pizza having never actually eaten pizza.
Nita* July 6, 2018 at 12:29 pm Oof, this is my husband to a tee. Right down to him hating his toxic job but refusing to leave that field if it means a drop in pay. And expecting me to really want career advancement for reasons which are a mystery to me, but make zero sense anyway when you have young kids. And not believing in counseling. It’s fun. What we did: I am still working (with kids). Like you say, it’s not really 8 hours. With the commute it’s really 10-11. I hate it with a burning passion, and the care the kids get is hit and miss. I don’t want to quit because I do feel for my husband – it would not be fair to leave him stuck in his job if things got really unbearable, and as long as I’m employed he knows he can walk away if needed. What I do want to do is go part-time. Sadly, it’s not really an option with my job, you’re either there or you’re not. But you can definitely look for something part-time, and/or with flexible hours. Since he’s making good money, you can take some time with the job search… but if he hates the job that much it doesn’t seem fair to make him the only breadwinner permanently. However. Since you’ve agreed you’ll be the primary caregiver, he needs to get a clue. It’s not really possible to be the primary caregiver and go for career advancement. This is where therapy might help sort things out, but since it’s not an option you’re probably stuck doing things the hard way. As in, explaining to him over and over why women who dash out of the office to pick up a sick child, and take unscheduled sick days, are not seen as promotion-ready. Shoving news articles about pregnancy discrimination and mommy-tracking at him. And maybe, occasionally asking how much of the kids’ sick time he’s willing to shoulder if he wants you to be out there polishing your career. I suppose he’ll either get it eventually, or realize that if he wants you to be Career Woman, he has to be Super Supportive Dad. Good luck.
LSP* July 6, 2018 at 12:31 pm Maybe if you tell him that you want to do counselling so that *you* can understand *him* better, that you are having trouble understanding his perspective, and you think having a 3rd party there might help. Also, it sounds like he *does* need to find a new job, with more regular hours, because otherwise, once you do have a baby, you will be single-parenting 2-3 days a week, and that sounds like something you really don’t want to do. If there isn’t some pressing need to start your family right now, I would wait, and both of you focus on your careers. Let him try for something new with a potentially lower salary, and you might even think about finding something that allows you the flexibility you’re looking for. Finally, as someone who has worked in the workforce development field for several years, maybe your husband should look into what kind of apprenticeships might be available near you. Apprenticeships offer wages while you learn a new occupation, and they are expanding into all sorts of industries from the traditional skilled trades, to IT to health care. No prior experience required! Sales pitch complete. Good luck!
Girl friday* July 6, 2018 at 1:17 pm Does this show up in other things? Each person should be able to have what they want without sacrifice from the other. Usually wanting someone else to change is the problem, so that’s not you.
Annon for this* July 8, 2018 at 1:26 pm I agree with counseling, but can I add one more thing? Life changes and the plans you make are around the current circumstances. I never planned to stay home, but having two kids close together and seeing the stress of the juggle with two”city” careers (and commutes) changed my mind. I went part-time for ten years and it was prefect for me. I never wanted to change. But, my husband’s industry went through massive change and he was laid off and there were no jobs. I went back to work full-time and I was not happy. Once you have kids, you do what you have to do to take care of them financially and emotionally. It is not easy to be the sole provider — a lot of responsibility is on those shoulders. This happened to lots of our friends and we all had to find new paths that were beyond the “plan”. Good luck.
P* July 6, 2018 at 2:03 pm Gottman method. Find a counsellor that follows it. Not as much kumbaya and more come and learn how to negotiate and compromise. Highly recommend. Our daughter just turned one and negotiating about work life balance and child care with help of a counselor has kept me from walking out the door with the kid in one hand and the cat in the other.
Kj* July 6, 2018 at 6:34 pm Seconded! Gottman or EFT for couples or nothing. Both are evidenced based and really useful.
Kuododi* July 6, 2018 at 7:58 pm Speaking as a therapist… I would certainly endorse both of those methods. I would also recommend Cognitive Behavioral or Solution Focused. Both are very goal directed. Im also putting in a big second, third and thousandth for not having a baby until these issues are resolved. I have worked with too many couples who thought a baby would fix their problems. Never worked….and the child always paid the price.
SavannahMiranda* July 6, 2018 at 7:08 pm This sounds really intriguing. Coming from someone who halfway already has the baby in his carrier and the cat boarded for the moving truck to come. Tell me more.
Mananana* July 6, 2018 at 8:29 pm Go to gottman.com and you can read more about hit theory on marriage and marriage counseling. His books are good, or if you can make it, I’d suggest a retreat or counseling. Another good resource is the book Divorce Recovery (along with the website, divorcebusting.com). It’s an action-based theory that doesn’t necessarily have to have the “buy in” of both spouses.
watersquirrel* July 6, 2018 at 3:51 pm ugh. This sounds like my husband (who I am trying to divorce). He lacks empathy and emotional connection and it REALLY came out once we had a child. Actually, that’s when things really started to go south because we weren’t on the same page about raising a kid at all, and the emotional disconnect was really defined. I’m sorry I don’t have any advice, I would try and work on this first though before having a kid. Good luck.
SavannahMiranda* July 6, 2018 at 6:58 pm *That’s* a helpful response. In that case, what impartial third party is he interested in helping referee this? (If he’s a sportsball guy, use sportsball metaphors.) Not so that one or the other of you ‘wins’ but so that a mutually beneficial outcome can be achieved. And ‘noone’ isn’t an answer. For instance, does he like and trust your dad, his FIL? Would he be open to hashing this out together in front of him and getting his input? Obvs your FIL might be biased towards you, or your FIL towards him, but you get the idea. (And I mention FILs because I’m getting the feeling he ‘hears’ input from men differently, but correct me if I’m wrong.) He doesn’t like counselors. Well alrighty then. Who does he like. Because this has to go somewhere.
Secretary* July 6, 2018 at 12:32 pm Yep he could find a new job that pays the same or better. Just like Alison says it’s easier to find a new job when you’re still employed!
A Teacher* July 6, 2018 at 1:34 pm I think, and this goes outside the scope of work, you need a real conversation. Babies and kids are hard. I would put that on hold until you are both on the same page. He’s allowed to change careers as you’re allowed to change careers. Until you both are on the same page though, throwing a baby into the mix will just add more to an already complicated dynamic
JokeyJules* July 6, 2018 at 11:16 am it looks like time to have a very clear, direct conversation about wants, needs, and expectations coming from both of you. I see a lot of “seemed to agree” “rather” and that he is kind of playing along with plan “Blue” but hoping for plan “red”. This happens a lot in my own relationship when we are both trying to hard to try to be receptive to what the other wants… but might not really change our minds and just hope they other will go along with what we want. the time has come to have a real, direct conversation about what you both want vs what just will not work. i dont know about your personal health and other factors in having children, but maybe wait until this is sorted out completely. If that means putting it off 1 year until he is somewhat settled in a new career and you both are settled in a new financial situation, that might be best. or he will decide to stick it out and just look for better job prospects. good luck to you!
Foreign Octopus* July 6, 2018 at 11:16 am It sounds like the two of you need to have another conversation about your expectations regarding family. I agree that it’s not fair for you to shoulder both the financial and the childcare burden if he does want to change career, but I also don’t think it’s fair that he should be trapped in a potentially toxic job. I’m not 100% sure but it sounds as though you don’t have children at the moment and I think this would be a good time to put a temporary halt on those plans whilst you talk things out – if possible. If you’re already expecting then that boat has definitely sailed. The most important thing here is just to communicate with your partner. Find out what he wants and then work together to find a compromise that works for both of you.
TGIF* July 6, 2018 at 11:18 am Respectfully, you and hubby may want to consider counseling before making career/life decisions at this point. I think it’s important (very!) to agree on a plan that works for you both moving forward.
Susan Sto Helit* July 6, 2018 at 11:19 am Honestly, I don’t think you need to get him to ‘see’ – it’s not a negotiation. If you don’t want to work a city job there’s no way he can force you to. I’d be tempted to call his bluff – if you’re working a city job, does that mean he’ll be staying home to be primary caregiver? You’re a partnership, so make it clear the options for childcare/running the house, from your point of view, are that either you do it or he does it. Which would he prefer?
A tester, not a developer* July 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm I think part of the issue is that OP wants to be the stay at home parent – so even if husband wants to be the caregiver, it’s not meeting her needs.
Kelly White* July 6, 2018 at 11:21 am Is it possible to sit down and see what kind of lifestyle changes you guys could agree on making so that you are both more satisfied? Maybe you can change some things now, before you have a baby. I know my husband and I have talked about this- he has a good paying job, and he hates it- but the trade off is the house and extras that he wants, too. But, we both know (because we’ve talked about it) that we could/would have to make drastic changes if he ever gets fed up enough.
Zeitbombe* July 6, 2018 at 11:24 am It sounds like you’d both like the role of working fewer hours and doing less stressful work in exchange for doing the childcare, while the other person did more earning and took on more work stress. I have the impression you “called it” first and are resentful that he is now thinking it looks appealing? I’m not sure of the best way forward (though counselling is a great suggestion), but is there a way you could split the childcare/work stress more evenly? You don’t want to earn the big money while shouldering the work stress–but neither does he. He isn’t obligated to do it either.
Yvette* July 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm But I get the impression from the LW that she would still be responsible for child care. “How do I get him to see that if I’m going to be the primary caregiver (which is what we previously agreed upon and I am literally thrilled about!!!),”
anon1* July 6, 2018 at 12:25 pm I’m not LW, but I think that interpretation really isn’t giving the husband any credit at all. It seems just as likely to me that his take is, basically, if the plan changes with respect to jobs then the plan has changed overall and the primary caregiver item gets revisited. They’re not talking about this very effectively (or at all, really, there’s a lot of hinting and interpretation), but my take here is that he’s asked for a change of plans and the LW has an obligation (which I don’t necessarily see LW taking up) to engage with him about how that would look.
Zeitbombe* July 6, 2018 at 12:50 pm That’s exactly how I was reading it; years ago, they figured OP would make sense as the primary SAHP and have never revisited the conversation. Would he like to take on more of the parenting? Does that change the equation for you? I agree it is unreasonable if he wants you to take on the money-earning/work stress AND the childcare, but maybe that’s not what he is picturing at all.
Luna* July 6, 2018 at 1:54 pm Yeah it sounds to me like he does want to take on more of the parenting (or possibly isn’t as set on becoming a parent right now as the OP is and wants to figure out his job change first) but the OP doesn’t want to give that up.
Adlib* July 6, 2018 at 2:38 pm I agree with your parenthetical. He told LW that daycare isn’t “that bad” so it sounds like maybe he is nervous/anxious/not ready about the whole situation in general.
TL -* July 7, 2018 at 1:05 am Being okay with putting your child in daycare doesn’t make you nervous/anxious/not ready to have a child. He might be a lot more okay with not having a primary/SAHP than the OP is, which is the impression I’m getting, but they’re not talking about it. Also, OP, my guess is that your husband doesn’t have a clear picture of what parenting looks like – a lot of men don’t because society is not designed to impress upon them the expectations of parenting. You need to have conversations about what you want parenting your kid to look like, starting with daycare preferences (full-time, part-time, no-time) and parenting responsibility splits.
LQ* July 6, 2018 at 11:24 am I definitely agree on the talk to a counselor and at the very very least talk to him. Things change. Your job got worse and you quit. His job might be worse to him than you see it as. He might get laid off. You might get laid off. He might want to be the primary caregiver now. You might want to move. He might. You might get an amazing job offer. He might. Other things you can’t even fathom right now might come into play. I think that you can’t just expect to hold someone to previous agreements even as things in your life change especially if they are not ok with them. And maybe he just needs to talk it out and come back around. But a counselor would be a strong help with all of that.
Jessi* July 6, 2018 at 11:27 am The thing is you currently have two opposing wants/ needs. You want to stay home and parent your kids – valid He wants to not be miserable at his job – also valid At the moment you are looking at it from an either or perspective. Either he keeps this sucky job and is miserable, or you don’t get to have kids in the way you dreamed. Where you are now neither of you is going to feel great. I don’t want to be rude/mean/judgemental but do you really want your partner to stay at a job he hates – you would be trading what you want for your partners happiness…… Instead of looking at it like this could you sit down and find some middle ground? There are other options -both of you find different jobs. You work more, he works a less paying job/career – Could you change your budget to accommodate lower wages? If this is really important to him maybe you downsize your accommodation? Become a one car family? – Is moving in the cards? Could you move somewhere cheaper? – Could partner look around and try and find a new job (I would advocate for this first) A new environment and new boss may be a path to a happier partner? – is partner aware of the cost of daycare? – If you are both able to work less/ part time you may eliminate the need for care? He takes the baby M, W, when he doesn’t work and you stay home T, TH, F? Hopefully you are able to see that there are lots of options that get you both what you want and both not be unhappy
AMPG* July 6, 2018 at 11:55 am I agree with this – there are just SO many variables when it comes to balancing work and family, and you’re limiting yourselves to two options unnecessarily. The other thing I wanted to point out is that you seem to have the idea that you’ll be responsible for the bulk of childcare and housework regardless of how many hours you work, and I would suggest you unpack that a bit. It doesn’t have to be that way, but you both need to make an explicit agreement about the distribution of labor and be willing to reassess if whatever you first decide isn’t working. And also I agree with everyone else that counseling is in order, and if he won’t go with you, go alone.
Clare* July 6, 2018 at 12:15 pm Yeah, I hope this doesn’t sound too harsh because that’s not my intention, but while reading the original comment it was all about you and your vision of the future and how to make your husband see that you are right, and no consideration that his point of view might also be valid. And since it sounds like you aren’t even pregnant yet, there is still time for you to get a higher paying job now and give him the opportunity to switch jobs. That doesn’t mean you have to stay in that job after you have a baby.
uranus wars* July 6, 2018 at 12:17 pm I also agree with this. $$$ does not buy happiness, as many of us can likely attest, for either of you. And usually climbing the corporate ladders comes with a lot of missed family time. Neither of you want to be miserable at work – this is important. Neither of you wants to resent the other (I hope) – also important. As Jessi is saying – life is not black or white. What you and your husband need are better communication. you shouldn’t be looking at how to convince him to see things your way (nor he yours) – you should be finding ways to compromise and communication and build a plan that works for BOTH of you. I also understand he might not be on board with counseling, but you two need some kind of plan of action to move forward before you make any big life decisions.
uranus wars* July 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm I should add that the missed family time is usually as emotionally hard on the person at home as it is on the person putting in the hours, at least in my experience.
aebhel* July 6, 2018 at 1:58 pm Right. This needs to be a partnership where you’re working together so you can have a life that’s satisfactory to both of you, not a hostage negotiation where one of you wins and the other one loses.
Falling Diphthong* July 6, 2018 at 11:31 am Thirding the counselor, and do not have a baby right now. Get on the same page about money and work before you toss a new expensive person who doesn’t sleep into the mix. As a long-married person: Plans change. Priorities change. Marriage is promising to try and work on it as a team, not to never allow that (thing you used to want) is now (thing you don’t want). So it sounds like a couple of years ago you might have quit your job without talking to him to make plans first? Rather than get his “Look, you’re miserable, if you want to quit tomorrow I will back you” blessing which you held until you finally pulled the trigger, you figured on your own that because he earned more money you could just quit and he couldn’t? Whichever of those is true–quitting with his blessing or as a surprise–you’re giving yourself a flexibility that you turn around and deny him, and that’s really not fair. You also list “annoying coworker near oneself all the time” as the toxic thing about your job, and because he doesn’t have that exact problem he just can’t be as frustrated as you were? That’s not how annoying jobs work.
Girl friday* July 6, 2018 at 4:38 pm I agree. I would not get pregnant while working full-time if you want to be a stay at home mom.* Not easy to do without your salary if he is already unhappy working for the “Man/person” himself. Two people who do not want to work full-time are a recipe for disaster. Depending how much neither one of you wants to work, you could look into communes, coops, bartering, or even smaller-town living. (Honestly) Or separate and live apart briefly to have truly independent budgets. I think growing separately in order to grow together is always good. As soon as you get that big job, he will try to quit his, and you can’t say he didn’t warn you. But only you know for sure. I definitely would wait for further clarification but be ready for him not to wait. Make a list of what you can control. Good luck! *in this situation
Aly_b* July 6, 2018 at 11:37 am Can you two try gaming out a couple of different scenarios together? Talk through what a typical day would look like if you got the city job – who is doing daycare drop off, at what time? Does the other person do pick up? What time are your partners shifts, and which of you is going to leave if the kid gets sick? What would your family income be and is that workable. Would it be workable if you made some lifestyle changes, and how would those impact your daily life. If he stays at this job, what does that all look like? If both of you have jobs somewhere in the middle for income, what does that look like? It sounds like you may not both get everything you want. The idea here is to get everyone on the same page about what these different choices actually look like *for both of you* and find a solution that is workable for everyone, or that at least is the best available option given everyone’s goals and desires. Keep in mind you both might have hard no’s in this – he may really feel he cannot stay in his job, you may feel you really cannot get that city job. That may mean you need to look for other solutions together that will make something work and be tenable for both of you. Good luck!
RealistReally* July 6, 2018 at 11:41 am You’re imagining how hard it will be to work with a baby, and you don’t even have the baby yet. Babies take time to make – most people don’t fall pregnant immediately. So, maybe you need to get a full-time job for now, to take the pressure off while you work out with your husband what his career change looks like and how you can both make it work. Plus counseling to help you both communicate.
A little compromise* July 6, 2018 at 12:25 pm Yep. What if it takes you a year or more to get pregnant, plus add the time it takes for baby to get here (and you never know if you’ll even be able to have kids that way)… Why force your SO to work a job he doesn’t like while you only work part-time for all that time? Like lots of people have said, your options aren’t limited to 1) you sell your life to the corporate ladder so he gets his dream job vs. 2) him being miserable so you can work part time before you even have kids. Why can’t you take on more hours for now (different FT job or another PT job) so your husband can figure out his career situation… and you can reassess if and when kids come?
Thlayli* July 6, 2018 at 1:53 pm This. It’s fine to have a plan to work part-time long term so you can be the primary caregiver, but consider the following: 1 it’s very hard to find good part-time jobs. everyone I know who went part time after having kids were full time first, and had proven themselves as valuable employees, then negotiated switching to part time work when coming back from maternity leave. I don’t know anyone who found a good part time job. Most jobs that start out as part time are on the lower paid side – like retail, part time office receptionist etc. 2 it can take a lot longer than planned to Get pregnant, and then the baby takes 9 months to arrive. That’s a long time to be working part time while your husband stays in an unpleasant job, with no real reason to be doing so. 3 as others have said, it’s not “either I get to be happy or he gets to be happy”. There is a whole range of options. It sounds like he agreed to the plan originally and now wants to change it, and it’s ok for you to be annoyed by that, but it’s also ok for him to change his mind, especially since the baby the original plan was for hasn’t even been conceived yet. Talk through your options and come up with a new plan that makes all (hopefully three) if you happy.
aebhel* July 6, 2018 at 2:00 pm I mean, don’t start trying to get pregnant on the expectation that it’s going to take years, either. I got pregnant with both of my kids the first month we started trying, so that’s also a possibility. Don’t start trying to conceive until you’re ready to have a kid.
Thlayli* July 6, 2018 at 6:38 pm That’s true. I’ve had unprotected sex 6 months in my life and been pregnant 4 times.
Jadelyn* July 6, 2018 at 11:43 am It sounds like you guys are kind of talking past each other – you each have your understanding of what “we” are planning to do, and they don’t line up, so you’re both adding a margin of “well of course we *could* do it your way” while still hoping the other will come around to your way of thinking. Speaking from experience, this is not the sort of thing that spontaneously resolves itself. And the longer you let it go before you work through it, the harder it’s going to be when you get there, because you’ll have both spent that time building up the Dream Life in your head and it’s going to hurt more to have to let it go in order to rebuild a new Dream Life that actually works for both of you. All that is to say, get marriage counseling, yesterday. These are hard, life-changing conversations to have, and you really want someone experienced with them to help guide you guys through it. And…before you get into all this, make sure you’re super clear with yourself on where your NEEDS are versus your WANTS, and be very, very, very realistic with yourself about where the boundaries are between “a lifestyle that is not ideal but I’d be okay with it” and “a lifestyle that I would wind up resenting over time”, because that’s going to be a critical distinction that both of you need to make for yourselves before you can make any decisions that won’t turn toxic over the long haul. Lastly, I will just say, it may turn out that you guys can’t figure out a way forward that actually works for both of you (meaning, hits all of the genuine NEED items for both of you and passes the “I can actually be okay with this and not wind up resenting it later” test), and at that point you might have a very hard decision to make about the future of the relationship itself. You can love someone with all your heart, but sometimes what you each want from life is different enough that you can’t build a single life between the two that will make you both happy, and it’s not a failure of the relationship or of your love to say “I need XYZ from my life, and you need ABC, so it’s time for us to amicably part and find our own paths to those disparate things.” However it works out, I wish you both the best.
Antilles* July 6, 2018 at 11:46 am The following phrases really make me wonder: Husband is pressuring me to work a high-paying “city job” so he can quit his Kind of Crappy almost 6-figure salary job and change careers. […] I was out of work for 6 months, and now I’m working part time (receptionist/data entry type stuff). […] he makes good money: 3 to 4 times as much as I do. […] I see a glimmer in his eye when he talks about me getting a get a “city job” and “moving up the corporate ladder” […] We will need to budget a little better, but we can financially afford for me to work less, but only if he stays at his current job or gets a job with the same salary. […] I don’t mean to be a complete ass here and I don’t expect you to give us details of your financial situation, but…I’m legitimately wondering if his ideas are even remotely feasible. The way you’re describing it just seems seriously iffy from a financial standpoint. 1.) High paying “city jobs” don’t grow on trees in most industries. Especially since it seems like you’ve been out of the industry for a while, it’ll likely take some time to get that city job and certainly time to move up the corporate ladder. 2.) You especially aren’t getting that kind of job or flying up the ladder working only 8 hours a day plus commute. 3.) If he’s looking at a drastic drop in pay, it’s very questionable whether your job would make up for that. 4.) Childcare is incredibly, absurdly, what the hell expensive. This is 100% not exaggerated: In many areas, a decent daycare seriously costs as much as renting a decent apartment. If you’re working part time, this is an enormous expense that you get to cut back on.
BF50* July 6, 2018 at 12:51 pm re: #4 – In my area, a decent daycare is more than my mortgage payment and more than the cost of sending a child to college.
Thlayli* July 6, 2018 at 1:57 pm Where I live if you have 2 kids under the age of 3 and both spouses work, the lower earning spouse needs to earn a minimum of €34,000 just to break even on the cost of full time childcare. You earn any less than that and you will actually be spending money to go to work, not earning money.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 2:38 pm I’m not sure if this is true where you live, but in the US at least there is usually a longterm negative effect on earnings that should also be taken into account. Depending on the amount of time out of the workforce and the career stage it can be significant. That said, it’s also fine for both parents to decide they want to work even though they are “losing money” on child care, if work is worth that cost to them. We’re always trading money for things we could be getting ourselves through labor, but I didn’t build my own house and I don’t farm my own food because it’s worth it to me to work to pay for those things instead.
Antilles* July 6, 2018 at 2:59 pm Agreed, it can be fine for both parents to decide to work even if it’s financially “losing money” to do so – maybe you really like your job, maybe you really value having time away from your kid rather than a 24-7 grind, maybe you enjoy the mental benefits of having a set schedule of having a set schedule, maybe you have long-term career goals that will stall out if you take 5 years off. These are all perfectly valid feelings to have and can make it worthwhile to work even if it’s theoretically a loss of money. The key though is to have that detailed conversation with yourself and then your spouse, so you really know where you stand. Based on the phrasing used in the original comment, I don’t know if her husband (or she herself) truly realizes just how crazy expensive day care is – I sure didn’t until I needed it!
BF50* July 6, 2018 at 5:36 pm The only thing that put us at the break even point for the first couple of years that we had 2 in daycare was health insurance. My husband is self employed so didn’t have insurance through work and buying it on the open market would have made us pay more for terrible coverage. My wages did not come close to covering the cost of childcare, but when you added in the cost of insurance we would pay if i was home, then it was definitely worth it. Even still, I wanted to work and would have likely worked even if we weren’t breaking even. Fortunately I have a better job now and they are older so it’s a bit less expensive.
Thlayli* July 6, 2018 at 6:41 pm That’s true. I know people who worked even though they didn’t even break even, because they didn’t want to lose their job and pension and they were willing to take the hit for a couple of years.
Mallory* July 6, 2018 at 2:47 pm I’m in a Boston suburb. A full time nanny is $35k+/year. And we pay for part time preschool (5k) for our oldest. Add in taxes and you’ve gotta be making north of 60k to break even with 2 kids. Daycare isn’t any cheaper- our infant was $2200/mo. Of course it isn’t all about breaking even. But childcare is so, so expensive!!
Jessica* July 6, 2018 at 12:21 pm Like everyone else has said, you need to have some big-picture conversations with your husband and both of you need to be willing to make some sacrifices. Your lives as parents can be almost anything you imagine it to be! But it might require totally re-working your current expectations. What if you moved to a lower COL area? What if you totally reshaped your budget to live on one lower income? (I know people who had a baby while living on a grad student stipend of $26,000/year and made it work.) Also, if you are thinking about trying for a baby within a year or so, you probably have at least two years before baby actually arrives. (My husband and I have been trying for six months now…) “How do I get him to see that if I’m going to be the primary caregiver that I can’t be expected to work crazy long hours?” I mean…it is not impossible for two parents to both have high-powered careers, so you can’t prove to him that it is impossible. But you can tell him that you don’t want to embark on a career that is going to take you out of the home full-time once you have children. Are there other ways that you can prepare financially to have children/allow your husband to pursue other jobs? Two blogger recommendations: Haley Stewart at Carrots for Michaelmas has an e-book about how she and her husband moved across the country and lived in a tiny apartment with 3 kids so that her husband could pursue an internship at an organic farm. On the flip side, Jen Fulwiler just published a book about how she was unsatisfied with her life as a SAHM and how she and her husband managed things so that she could have a career as an author (which required several years of unpaid work, surviving on her husband’s salary AND getting some childcare so she could have time to write). All of this to say, there are many many more options between one parent having a nearly-six-figure, long hours, high-powered career while the other stays at home/works a low-paying job. Explore those ideas with your husband!
Jessie the First (or second)* July 6, 2018 at 12:41 pm I have a bunch of thoughts, in no particular order: 1. You are hoping to have kids at some point in the next year or two. Is there a reason you feel you can’t work full-time now, and then stop when the baby is born? There is no way to know how long it will take to get pregnant and carry to term (miscarriages are not uncommon). It could be a few years before you actually have a baby – I can see why your husband is resentful about you working part time now. 2. I think it would be good to stop playing Whose Job Is More Toxic. He does not like his job and is not happy. It doesn’t have to be as bad as yours was – it is not a competition – for him to “deserve” the right to quit and change jobs or careers. If he is not happy in his line of work, then that is important to acknowledge. It’s also important to start actually brainstorming solutions. 3. Not having help for days at a time when he works overnights would be exhausting, I agree! Having had (many) kids, I do want to mention that it will be exhausting even if you stay home with your child. His changing careers could end up being a boon for your family – perhaps he will be able to be present as a father to his child! 4. Have you ever talked with him directly about what it means if you both work outside the house? That if you did that, you would *share* caregiving duties equally, and he would then be cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, etc., as much as you would? (Or is his and your idea honestly that if you both worked full time, he’d continue to do zero of this??) 5. I see things like “I’m thinking he’s saying” and “he doesn’t understand” – you two are having some communication problems. I see your comment that he refuses counselors, but this is a Big Deal. If he won’t go, you go. Life gets harder as you go along, not easier, and you’re going to need some professional-grade help to navigate it if you are married to someone who doesn’t do difficult conversations AND with whom you have communication struggles. I do not mean any of this harshly. I totally get why you are resisting the idea of his career change. But that doesn’t mean he can’t change jobs. He gets to try to explore career satisfaction too. And it doesn’t have to come at the cost of what you want – but you both need help communicating better, so that you can start working out ideas and figuring out how to put this puzzle together. You seem to be talking at each other now rather than problem-solving together.
BF50* July 6, 2018 at 1:10 pm All of this. Your concerns are completely valid, but you seem to have lost sight of the fact that his concerns are also completely valid. You seem like you are digging your heels in, which is also kind of what is bothering you about your husband.
ket* July 6, 2018 at 5:56 pm Great comment, all around. You’re also making a few more assumptions about your job situation. 1) All high-paying jobs you could have are in “the city” and necessarily full-time. This may not be true. 2) Your nightmare scenario involves him staying in his job and working night shift and you in a 10-hrs-a-day position in “the city”. Wouldn’t the point of your higher-paying job be that he’d quit and do something else? Since this is the internet, I’d say something I’d say to my best friend but not to a casual acquaintance: it sounds like you’re living in the world of “should be” or “I think” rather than fully in the world of what is. You don’t want to even look at possible new jobs or allow your husband to change jobs because of a hypothetical that’s at least 9 months down the road, probably more. What is really holding you back? What is your real concern?
SciDiver* July 6, 2018 at 6:56 pm +100 to the competing for who has it worse. It’s an easy trap to fall into but only alienates you from each other and this is a problem you need to solve as a team. Going to counseling is just getting a coach to help you strategize and learn how to work together.
Liane* July 6, 2018 at 12:44 pm I really, really hate to say this, especially since I can’t figure out a soft way to say something you probably don’t want to hear– but you two should put your plans to have kids on hold until you get this sorted out. (Including staying on/restarting birth control.) This is clearly stressful and painful and it will be much worse if you two are already expecting and still not on the same page about it. I’m sorry. I also agree with what others have said that if he doesn’t like his job, he looks for another one. And, yes, the sorting out conversations, with or without a counselor, can include things like, “How do we make this work if I stay at the same job while you bring in less at a job that’s a better fit for you” and “Since you value a ‘City job’ more than I do, you should look for one and not insist I take one.”
samiratou* July 6, 2018 at 12:52 pm If he wants to find a new job, he needs to put the legwork into figuring out what that would take. Does he know what field he wants to move to? Does he know what skills he would have to have or develop to get there? How long it would take? How much it would cost? It’s fair that he wants a new job, but putting the onus on you to make that happen is not realistic or fair. If he did get a job that worked more standard hours, you wouldn’t necessarily have the overnight issues you have now, so it may make sense for you to keep your part time job allowing him to get a job that’s a better fit for him at a lower pay and still not have to shell out too much for daycare, etc. It depends. But y’all need to sit down and figure the details of how you can both be satisfied in your careers and have a kid and how to get there. Right now it looks like a lot of “but, you!”s which isn’t really sustainable.
Jules the 3rd* July 6, 2018 at 2:05 pm To get someone to an agreement that makes both people less unhappy, you really need to know your requirements and to be prepared to offer up something. You can take practical steps towards being in a place where you can compromise. 1) Put together your family’s ‘Walk Away Fund’ – 1 year of living expenses 2) Take on more hours for yourself, at least until you’re 3+mo pregnant – that $$ can go straight into the ‘Walk Away’. 3) Dig deep into your budget and put $$s to your needs and your wants 4) Talk to a career counselor about moves he might make and the financial implications, and see if there are options that would make him happier but that you can still afford. 5) Consider talking to a financial planner about all this. Mr Jules and I tried to get pregnant for four years (little Jules is awesome, for sure!) – that’s a lot of time you could be putting away ‘Walk Away’ money at a local full-time job. Also, look *hard* at whether you can be satisfied with less house / yard. Your single biggest expense = your single biggest opportunity to save $$.
Bea* July 6, 2018 at 2:23 pm There is way too much going on here. You need a professional to help you two come to a compromise somewhere. It seems like both of you have your own idea of what will make you happy. The problem is these ideas clash drastically. Please don’t have kids yet. A lot of this sounds like you’re not a cohesive unit and the writing is on the wall. Both of you are thinking “me me me what makes me happy” and shrugging off the other person. I’m taken back by the fact he dealt with you taking a huge career turn and now you’re justifying him working a crappy job because at least it pays your bills. The selfishness makes my blood run cold.
Wendy Anne* July 6, 2018 at 2:55 pm I agree about the selfishness. The OP quit a crappy job and now refuses to work more than part time because at some point in the future, she wants to have a baby? Meanwhile, her husband is also working a crappy job that he can’t just quit like his wife did hers, because they won’t be able to afford their bills. The bills that no doubt have been piling up because the OP quit her job in the first place!
Bea* July 6, 2018 at 3:33 pm Yep. I think this is killing me because I would do anything possible and have sacrificed for my partner because he deserves to be happy professionally. I couldn’t start a family with someone who just wanted my financial contributions no matter how much of my soul I had to sell!
Anon today* July 6, 2018 at 4:24 pm Pretty much where I am on this–OP quit a job she hated, didn’t work for six months, and now works part-time, and this was/is all possible only because her husband works a job he hates. Now instead of working with him so he can have the same opportunity, she’s focused only on what she wants. I’m thinking counseling, not parenthood, is a good next step.
Clever Alias* July 6, 2018 at 2:24 pm 1. Your current track is going to breed resentment from one or both of you. 2. Multiply that current resentment x10000000 when you have kids, because raising. small. children. is. difficult. (to your point). 3. Resentment kills marriages. Better to treat cancer before it spreads. Please seek counseling. No shame in it.
NaoNao* July 6, 2018 at 2:38 pm Go to a friends’ house with a baby. Preferably a small baby or toddler. Have him talk to the parents in a frank, low key way about the reality of caring for a child. This may come off as sexist, but sometimes men don’t believe it coming from their wives or GFs’ or quite frankly any woman. It’s like they *need* to hear it from another source before it becomes reality. The other thing too is all of this is speculation. Where are these amazing Corporate Jobs that pay 6 figures? Maybe make him a deal that if he can find jobs in your field that pay, you’ll interview for them. The thing is, you’re correct. You can’t raise a child the way you’d like and work a Power Job. I declined to have kids with the man I love for that reason. He’s a full time student, living off savings/investments, I’m the breadwinner. Since I would be the “food source” and mama, I was like…I can’t do it, hon. If he could have carried the child and given birth and been the primary caregiver–sure! Can you make a deal like you’ll get pregnant now, he works 3 more years, once Baby is 2, off to day care or preschool Baby goes, while you ease back into a City Job?
ummmm* July 6, 2018 at 3:57 pm Finding another dude to talk to him isn’t any sort of remedy for sexism; it’s simply pandering to sexism. I’m baffled as to why anyone would want to start a family with a guy so sexist that he can only listen to / take seriously other men.
TL -* July 7, 2018 at 1:21 am I have no idea what field OP is in, but my field more than a few of my friends more than doubled their salary by moving into industry and it wasn’t hard to find a job at all. It could absolutely be a reality that OP is able to earn significantly more working in Corporate City. Some fields work like that, especially fields that are ‘hot’ right now.
LilySparrow* July 6, 2018 at 2:49 pm Seconding counseling. But I’d also point out that he’s just fantasizing, and there is no reason why you have to get upset about or negotiate with a fantasy. My husband is a big talker, and the first several years we were married he used to freak me out on the regular by talking about all kinds of huge, fantasy projects that there was no way we could afford, either in time, money, or space. Finally I figured out that until he started trying to write checks or schedule anything, it wasn’t real and I could just let him talk. He wants to change jobs? To what? Let him do the research and figure out what he could get and how much it would make. What’s going to happen to his pension or retirement account? What’s going to happen to his health insurance? He thinks you should get a “city job?” Let him do the research and see what the hours, pay, and commute would be like for your real-life skills and background. He thinks daycare wouldn’t be that bad? Let him find a few, and compare the costs to what you’d supposedly be making. Let him work out the logistics of drop-off and pick-up, and backup care, and what happens when he’s working overnight. And of course, he’ll need to figure out the tax impact of your salary, what to do about healthcare (a family plan), and the costs of your commute (mileage? parking? transit?) If he’s making 3-4 times what you were working full time, I seriously doubt you’d be in the black by this imaginary transition. But there’s no reason why you have to do any of this planning. He’s the one who wants it. Let him do the work and present a real plan with real numbers for you to consider. It’s not going to commit you to anything, and I’d bet he would lose enthusiasm as soon as it looks like work for him to do, instead of work for you to do. At least, that’s what it looks like in my house. Telling my husband we can discuss it when it’s an actual plan with dates and numbers has saved me years of agita over nothing, and now when he just wants to talk an idea through to get it out of his head, I can listen without getting bent out of shape.
ket* July 6, 2018 at 6:05 pm But that’s not fair to the husband, either. It sounds like our OP won’t even look for a full-time job *right now* because of a hypothetical future pregnancy. And I thought the point of him switching jobs is that then he wouldn’t be working overnight. Maybe he can do the pick-up and drop-off at daycare, with his new local job that doesn’t require 2nd/3rd shift. Maybe his new job would pay alright, as would hers. Say he’s earning $80k now and she’s earning 20k part-time, but could be earning 65k in a full-time position that wasn’t receptionist/data entry but instead used different skills. If he dropped to $50k, wasn’t overnight anymore, was happier, could do pickup and dropoff, and she could be at a 65k position with less than an hour commute each way, maybe that would be better for them than having a resentful husband stuck at a job he hates, trying to sleep during the day with a baby in the house and working overnight, because his wife refuses to work.
HLHR* July 6, 2018 at 2:58 pm If you’re wonder what it would look like, it’s: 5:30 – Wake up. Get yourself put together, get baby up. 7:00 – Drop baby off at daycare 8:00 – 5:00 – Work 6:00 – Pick up baby at daycare 6:30 – Get home. Feed yourself and baby. Spend time together. By 8:00 – Get baby in bed. 8-9:30 – Clean up, get ready for the next day, etc. 9:30 – Bedtime I’ve been doing it for 6 years, and wouldn’t trade it for being a stay home mom. That said, it’s not for everyone. Also, daycare for 11 hours is expensive. You both need to be on the same page, and also be accepting that the situation today may need to change tomorrow. For example, I left a job for one further away (added an extra half hour to my commute) a couple years ago, and it meant shifting some things to my husband. We knew it was a better long term fit though, so we did it. What happens (for example) if your husband loses his job? How about when your kids are in school and you could work more hours?
OhBehave* July 6, 2018 at 5:34 pm You forgot to factor in 6:30 – baby spit up on suit. Must change clothes.
PhyllisB* July 6, 2018 at 9:06 pm Or baby screams until midnight and wakes up at 3:30-4:00 for a feeding. Been there, done that, got the drawer-full of drool-stained t-shirts to prove it.
MillersSpring* July 6, 2018 at 3:01 pm You’re not even pregnant yet. Getting pregnant is not a guarantee. Go do what what makes sense for your life the way it is now today.
dawbs* July 7, 2018 at 7:38 am I want to echo this. Listen to everyone else on the marriage stuff that needs to be solved pre-baby. But for job stuff right now, do what makes sense for job stuff right now. I’m the proud parent of a 7 year old…who, if things had gone as *planned* would probably be 13 right now. But they didn’t, there were a few years delay in solving some marriage stuff (so yes, I know that of which I speak) and a few years delay in some health stuff and a few years delay in infertility stuff. I would have cheated myself out of more than 5 years worth of *good* job experience and *GOOD* income if I would have taken a ‘mommy track’ job before I was momming. which would have meant that I probably wouldn’t have worked my way into a job that had good maternity leave, a boss willing to work around my childcare needs and pumping schedule, and who I had built several years of rapport with–so she could trust me to handle my stuff on my own time, before my kid showed up. Which would have made the mom/job balance so much harder. Make the choices for the life you have, while planning for the life you want–but don’t sell yourself short now.
Lindsay Gee* July 6, 2018 at 3:39 pm Along with what everyone else is saying about counselling etc….why doesn’t your husband actually job search and see what is out there first? If he were in a job he enjoyed, and making similar money- then the issue disappears right? And he wouldn’t necessarily need to switch industries (unless he wants that), he could theoretically find a job that isn’t with his crappy boss (this is all assuming that without his crappy boss, he would still enjoy his job). See what his job prospects would be. This seems like a super simple first step, that doesn’t require either of you to commit to anything. It’s seeing what’s out there, and if he gets an interview and job offer somewhere, hazzah! He gets out of his crappy job! Or maybe he sticks with the one he has…who knows?! But it’s an easy thing he can do so that you’re not planning your future with 10000000 unknown factors.
ronda* July 6, 2018 at 4:54 pm Well…. why didnt she start a job search and figure things out before quiting her job and being out of work for 6 months…. then going back part time? Also, did she talk with him and he agreed that it was a good idea for her to quit her job instead of staying while she found another (full-time?) job? I am guessing , no. that kind of thing can build up resentment when you think you are doing more than your fair share. a hypothetical future where you have more responsibility does not make up for the lack of equal “contribution” now. (& by “contribution” — I don’t mean just money)
OhBehave* July 6, 2018 at 5:40 pm OP left out that pertinent point – did hubby know she was thinking of quitting? Did he know how toxic her workplace was? If answering no to either of these – YIKES! I would be ticked off if my hubby quit. It doesn’t matter if I made 10x the money he did, you talk about these things first. He’s carrying the burden of hating his job but knowing if he up and quits, they will be left with little income. I feel he’s fantasizing about doing just what OP did. Getting pregnant now will NOT fix things. Don’t do it – even on accident.
OhBehave* July 6, 2018 at 5:40 pm OP left out that pertinent point – did hubby know she was thinking of quitting? Did he know how toxic her workplace was? If answering no to either of these – YIKES! I would be ticked off if my hubby quit. It doesn’t matter if I made 10x the money he did, you talk about these things first. He’s carrying the burden of hating his job but knowing if he up and quits, they will be left with little income. I feel he’s fantasizing about doing just what OP did. Getting pregnant now will NOT fix things. Don’t do it – even on accident.
foolofgrace* July 6, 2018 at 4:44 pm I’m late to the party, and there has been tons of good advice about therapy etc., but if you absolutely can’t do City Job with Baby (I know how hard that is, single mom here who got zero help from sperm donor), then Take It Off the Table. If you can’t do it, you can’t do it, end of discussion on that front, time to move the discussion on. And I echo the suggestions for therapy, you or couples. Frankly this guy makes me kind of mad. How many diapers is he committed to changing? Midnight feedings? etc. etc.
Frankie* July 6, 2018 at 5:45 pm Okay. You guys need some realistic conversations about 1) what you had previously agreed to and 2) what’s changed and what’s the new ideal for BOTH of you. You both deserve to be happy and that doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive. (Also, it’s hard to tell from your letter, but is he really assuming you’d get a full time demanding job AND be the primary caregiver, while he can just work and not do that stuff? Because if so, that’s messed up and completely unsustainable). Then you need to do some research: 1) Cost of day care in your area–how much would you both have to make to be able to afford it? For 1 kid? 2+? Price it all out. For us, the best we can find so far will be the cost of our mortgage just for one toddler (and we’ll have to fight tooth and nail for a spot there to boot). It just barely makes sense for my husband to keep his job but if we have two, he’d have to get a big raise to make it work. 2) His career plan. You working an imaginary “city job” will not change his job prospects, so if he is set on leaving he should start doing the legwork of applying and interviewing, understanding salary ranges, etc. Is he using your getting some job as a delaying tactic? He should be making plans now if he’s that unhappy. 3) These fancy “city jobs” you guys are imagining. What are they and what do they pay? How long would you have to work at one company to achieve this pay level? I’ve worked some of these “city jobs” and until you’ve got a long track record, for me the pay wasn’t all that spectacular. If he won’t see a therapist, maybe you both could still find a financial advisor and work through some of the tangles, here. But I think until you have some concrete numbers, or a job opportunity in his hand, it’s really a lot of imaginary problems. I wouldn’t start trying until you’ve started to work some of this out. If there’s resentments now they might explode when a baby comes along. Doing this work could be as important as any other preconception health plan. I would also not necessarily come up with just one plan that will work for you guys to raise a family. You both may get 12 months into parenthood and realize what you thought you wanted isn’t working anymore. It’s better to come up with multiple scenarios that might work. What if you actually missed work after a while? What if he decides he wants to be around the kids more? What if you guys want to move for schools or some family thing?
Fulana del tal* July 6, 2018 at 7:04 pm I don’t see the OP’s husband as selfish/sexist but extremely frustrated. He’s feeling trapped in toxic for him job with a spouse who refuses to work beyond part-time/short commute and now the OP wants to add kids. He’s never going to be able to afford to leave toxic job. Agreements aren’t set in stone. Just like you changed your mind regarding work, he can change his mind too. Don’t get pregnant and find a full time job.
AcademiaNut* July 6, 2018 at 9:05 pm I think the fundamental problem you’re facing right now is that the two options you’re looking at involve one of you being happy at the cost of the other’s happiness. And that’s poison to even a loving relationship. If you get what you want, you work part time and look after the baby, but your husband is stuck indefinitely in a job he dislikes. If he gets what he wants, he gets the chance to change to a job that doesn’t suck, but you end up with a demanding job and all the household stuff. And you both have valid points. You’re frustrated because he doesn’t understand just what a ‘city job’ will mean when you have a child and how much of a burden it will be. He’s frustrated because you quit your job due to unhappiness without anything lined up, but he’s expected to stay indefinitely in his unhappy job for the sake of the family. I would really, really, really strongly advise that you not have a baby until you work this out. Throw a baby into this, and you’ve got raging hormones, exhaustion, increased expenses, decreased time, and a lot fewer options. Things to think about – can you downscale your life so that you can both have jobs you’re happy with? Can you put off a baby, have you find full time work, and give him a chance to retrain for something? Can he find a different job in his current field? Could you move so that he can do that?
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 9:33 pm +1 to your first para; you said it much better than I did below.
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 9:23 pm Wow, Mom to Be, you got some great responses here! I wanted to say that marriage, IME, is a constantly evolving partnership, and it’s important to be able to communicate honestly with each other—and be willing to shift your position to accommodate and respect your partner’s needs. There may never be one single time when each of you is getting exactly what you want. For example, agreement you made about being primary caregiver shouldn’t be sacrosanct. It can be revisited as both your needs change. Again IMHO, the most crucial thing in parenting is making sure you’re both pulling for the same team. A shared sense of purpose and cooperation, of mutual investment and love, is absolutely necessary. This can only be accomplished through communication in which both sides are willing to compromise. Counseling can be a great resource in facilitating this essential dialogue.
Thankful for AAM* July 7, 2018 at 12:29 am I know you are not even pregnant yet but when the poop hit the fan and our 16 year old son let us know he was feeling suicidal, my not so into talking about his feelings husband announced 1 week into what turned out to be a 4 year slog through teen psychiatry, that he was moving out. He had spent a whole week on this emotional problem and nothing was better yet and he could not take it. He did not move out, we did go to counseling, and our son is fine now. But a difficult situation was made much harder than it needed to be bc we had never addressed our issues. I don’t think you want to find out just how unemotionally available he is during a child related crisis.
Buu* July 7, 2018 at 10:14 am It seems like neither of you want to be the main bread winner. How are his feelings on having a baby, has he expressed his desire to have one? If so has he mentioned taking care of it at all? or does he think that you can just get child care and no one has to watch the baby?
Kanade* July 8, 2018 at 5:15 am Could you have a family member move in to take care of potential kids? A friend of mine got thru uni that way – her brother and his wife lived near to the uni, so she moved in with them and took care of the kids while doing online courses. The nuclear family is not at all the only way to go on this!
Barbara* July 9, 2018 at 3:49 am His understanding of therapy is totally wrong. However you can still go to see the therapist on your own. I have been told that even when only one of the two goes to couple therapy it can help. You could also try NVC (Non-Violent Communication). It might sound less frightening to him. Working up to 12 hours a day while being the one doing all the childcare and cleaning will be not only impossible but also unfair. You aren’t a slave !
Trying* July 6, 2018 at 11:04 am I shouldn’t be having a panic attack because my boss will be calling me to talk soon.
Damn it, Hardison!* July 6, 2018 at 11:10 am Deep breaths! It may not be a bad thing – sometimes a call is just easier than email.
Opting for the Sidelines* July 6, 2018 at 11:11 am Is this a random out of the blue phone call? If so, that usually does inspire panic attacks. Do you anticipate being reprimanded for anything? Again, this does inspire panic attacks. If it is just a normal call, with a non-toxic boss, then take a deep breath lasting for four counts, hold for four counts, blow out for four counts. Repeat until your heart slows down. And remember it is Friday. The weekend starts soon.
Junior Dev* July 6, 2018 at 11:14 am Hugs. My response to “can we talk?” from my boss is still “I’m gonna get fired.” I hope the call goes well.
Epsilon Delta* July 6, 2018 at 4:42 pm Mine too! And it’s always “Hey Epsilon I am trying to do this thing and can you just show me where the file is?” (Boss works remote so he calls me for this sort of thing instead of walking over to my desk). I wish I could un-learn the “I’m getting fired” reaction, the best I’ve got is to just ignore it and pretend the reaction is not happening.
MarsupialHop* July 6, 2018 at 11:41 am This call will be about 1 of 2 things: (1) something has already decided and the call is to inform you of the decision. (2) something is going to be decided and they need your input. Most Likely: It is probably a call about a change in the company/department’s direction. It is a call about a question for the process you use/department uses on some thing boss needs fast-tracked.
StudentAffairsProfessional* July 6, 2018 at 2:03 pm Don’t fret! When my boss does that, it usually means she wants to give me back story on a project or request she’s about to make that she doesn’t want to put in writing. Could be something juicy instead of something negative, haha!!!
Headphones On* July 6, 2018 at 11:04 am How do you all feel about headphones – and especially podcasts and audiobooks – at work? A lot of my work requires organizing data, and is often monotonous and repetitive because my nonprofit doesn’t have the kind of technology that would allow me to automate the rote work. I’ve been dealing by listening to a lot of audiobooks at work. No one has called me out on this, per say, but my workplace is mostly a people-oriented space (think counseling, where the only people not usually with clients are on the phones or doing other admin work). The other IT people are more helpdesk, and I’m the only one doing reporting, coding, and other activities that have rare human interactions, so I’m the only one in my office with headphones on. Should I avoid podcasts and whatnot at work, or at least not call attention to them? Or should I learn to do this kind of work without headphones to better fit into the office culture? Or should I just treat it like a non-issue, because it really does help me get through the tedious but necessary parts of my job? (I’m trying this one last time, but it seems as though these aren’t being posted??? Sorry for duplicates, if they happen!)
Detective Amy Santiago* July 6, 2018 at 11:11 am I listen to podcasts, audio books, and/or music while I work. My office environment is pretty different from yours though – the positions here are largely processing and most people have earbuds/headphones while they work. As long as you are pausing and talking to people when they stop by/call you/otherwise need your input, I think you’re fine.
Blue Anne* July 6, 2018 at 11:12 am A lot of my work involves organizing data too, and I’m constantly listening to audiobooks. I mentioned it to my boss and he thought it was super impressive that I could do both at once (uh, not really?) Days that I forget my earbuds, my productivity goes way down. If it’s the same for you I would definitely keep doing it. I just listen to them with one earbud in, and I have one of those in-line mic/clicker things so that I can pause it really quickly if someone starts talking to me.
Headphones On* July 6, 2018 at 11:46 am This is me. When I forget my headphones, I get so easily distracted by everything else going on, and am nowhere near as productive as when I have them in. Glad to know I’m not the only one!
SarahKay* July 6, 2018 at 12:10 pm Agreed with all the above. Use ear buds rather than headphones (less obvious) and just one ear bud in, so you can still easily hear what’s happening around you. I tend to like music rather than audio books and I listen like this regularly. Because it’s just one fairly unobtrusive wire to one ear no-one even seems to notice until they’re half-way through asking me the question – at which point they notice because they can see me taking it out ;)
Windchime* July 6, 2018 at 3:09 pm Can I just say this to everyone who is just listening with one earbud in–please keep your volume down so that the rest of us don’t have to hear the constant “psst, tsssss, psssss” of talking through your dangling earbud. I have really sensitive hearing and it’s so annoying to have to listen to that while my coworker is working away happily with one bud in and one out.
The Dread Pirate Buttercup* July 6, 2018 at 4:30 pm You could also do a Bluetooth— it’s a little less offensive to those for whom headphones mean, “checked out.” (I think it’s a style thing, myself— count me in with the sort of people for whom “no headphones” means, “lower productivity.”)
Murphy* July 6, 2018 at 11:12 am I listen to podcasts all day at work! I keep one headphone in and one open so that people know they can come up and talk to me. I also am at my desk alone most of the day and all of the desks around me are empty. As long as you’re receptive when people do need to talk to you, I think you’re ok.
JokeyJules* July 6, 2018 at 11:18 am Same! 1 headphone in, one out. I like to think it sends the message that I’m not very interested in social conversations right now, but if you have a question or need something, I’m still available.
Turquoisecow* July 6, 2018 at 11:56 am I do the same. Also, I can be a little more aware if someone comes up to me.
There is a Life Outside the Library* July 6, 2018 at 11:27 am I think if your coworkers understand your job, which is mostly NOT public facing, they will understand. But if you feel like you need to explain it, go ahead. I do library cataloging and I could not do my job without music…and I have told colleagues as much.
Valor* July 6, 2018 at 11:41 am For about a year, I worked for an office where everyone else was on the phone all the time as I organized data, and that is in fact where I started listening to podcasts. In that case, it helped me maintain confidentiality for the people around me, and I don’t think anyone minded, as long as it was clear that I didn’t mind being interrupted. (Although I did mind, because I hate being abruptly pulled out of data to talk to people, but that was unrelated to the podcasts.)
Advancement ACE* July 6, 2018 at 11:45 am I agree with everyone saying that headphones are fine as long as you’re getting your work done and you’re able to respond to anyone who stops by your desk. I would caution against anything that plays via video, like a TED talk or something similar. Even if you’re not actively watching it, if someone sees a video playing on your screen they could get the wrong idea about your productivity. I wouldn’t even mention the headphones to anyone unless they bring it up themselves. And then you could just say that they help you focus on your work in an active workplace. You don’t need to tell anyone what you’re listening to.
Antilles* July 6, 2018 at 11:52 am Agreed. I’d second the warning about videos – there’s a clear difference in how people perceive it if you just have headphones in versus “wait, is she watching TV on her phone?”.
Headphones On* July 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm Oh, yeah, I agree 100%! I’m actually a little annoyed that Spotify automatically starts music videos on some of my playlists now, because I find it distracting to see my phone flashing different colors. I don’t think I could possibly watch and listen and work at the same time!
Tangerina* July 6, 2018 at 11:45 am I’ve yet to work in an office where headphones are considered unusual.
Turquoisecow* July 6, 2018 at 11:55 am I’ve mostly worked at offices where headphones were okay. I had one boss who thought they were unprofessional because he felt like I wasn’t focusing with them on (he was wrong), but thankfully I didn’t work with him for very long. Every other boss has been totally ok with it. If you’re uncertain about it, ask your direct supervisor for their opinion, but I would honestly just start working with them on and wait for someone to tell you not to.
KR* July 6, 2018 at 12:01 pm I listen to music, NPR, and podcasts all the time with headphones or out loud on my small Bluetooth speaker (I’m in a small office and work alone most of the time). My coworkers and I listen to podcasts together sometimes, meaning I’ll already be listening and they will join in. My work involves a lot of emailing and invoice processing and semi frequent phone calls but I would be Uber bored and unhappy working in silence. Manager encouraged me to get a Bluetooth speaker.
twig* July 6, 2018 at 12:14 pm Unless you hear differently – -keep doing what you’re doing. I had a job in grad school that was primarily data entry. I eventually figured out that I worked much more quickly and accurately if I was listening to audiobooks (this was in the wee early days of podcasts…) Every week I’d go to the library and check out enough hours of audiobooks to cover my work days and commute (20 hours of work and 10-15 hours of commute) it made my worklife (and commute) MUCH better. Also — I finally made it through a couple of Dickens Novels! I like the recommendation of leaving one earbud out — this signals availability if needed –and also you can maintain an awareness of what’s going on around you (again in case you are needed)
Jim* July 6, 2018 at 12:30 pm At the jobs I’ve worked at, most folks wouldn’t bat an eye (software development). If someone raises an issue, you can talk about blocking out other noise, or stop wearing them.
CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night* July 6, 2018 at 1:11 pm There are only two things that bother me when my co-workers listen to music/podcasts: 1. Listening at such a high volume that it’s impossible to get their attention unless you physically tap them on the shoulder. 2. Laughing hysterically or singing aloud with whatever they’re listing to. Drives me up a while and then I can’t concentrate on my work. I will assume that you, OP are polite and don’t do either of those things, so podcast on unless someone says its a problem.
LSP* July 6, 2018 at 1:25 pm My work is normally running meetings and writing/editing work, so doesn’t often allow for listening to podcasts, etc., and I often find myself needing to wear headphones to have white noise playing in the background so I can better concentrate on what I’m doing. However, there are rare occasions when I am doing database work, and when I do that, I put in my ear buds and listen to podcasts and music without a thought. I have never seen anyone else in my office wearing headphones except when on Skype calls, but no one has ever batted an eye at me doing it. If they can concentrate on their work while hearing three other conversations happening around them, bully for them!
Iris Eyes* July 6, 2018 at 1:27 pm When I do tasks like that I have to listen to something with a plot line. Its like my brain needs something to chew on so I can stay on task. It may be better to use earbuds rather than headphones if you are OK with that, in that case its a little less noticeable. You could also try having just one ear plugged in so that you can still maintain auditor awareness of your environment.
jukeboxx* July 6, 2018 at 1:54 pm I’m actually annoyed I never thought of listening to audiobooks! I do listen to a lot of podcasts though, my fave right now is Stuff You Missed in History Class :)
Thlayli* July 6, 2018 at 2:00 pm It’s a total non-issue. I don’t even understand why you would think it’s an issue. Loads of people have headphones in when they are concentrating. Sometimes I put them on even when I’m not listening to music just to signal “I’m concentrating leave me alone”
Spegasi* July 6, 2018 at 11:04 am Hey! My boyfriend is in an awkward situation with his degree being basically useless right now. Background: we live in Mexico, not the USA. He majored in petroleum engineering with allows for little wiggle room for doing anything outside of it . He graduated just as the market in his field went through a major crisis and two years later its barely recovering. He has held odd jobs here and there in the hopes that it will pick up soon but nothing close to what will help him build a CV. He has gone on interviews but no offers and even the job postings are slim. His degree over qualifies him from trainee programs (aimed at students about to graduate or recent graduates) and other types of jobs. He also racked up a lot of credit card debt and loan debt under the impression that the job market was so stable that he would have no problem getting a well payed job. At this point I guess the question is, what do you do when your degree is esentially useless and you need a job as soon as possible?
AliceW* July 6, 2018 at 11:20 am Degrees are not useless. Unfortunately people limit themselves and think they are only qualified to do the one thing they studied. So many professional fields do not require a related degree at all (e.g. finance, sales, real estate). Many of these fields require that you study and obtain a license which can be done for very little money or none at all if you are willing to take an entry level job and work your way up. My sister graduated with an art degree and works in finance. She had no finance background at all and started as a temp and worked her way up to a global VP. Your boyfriend just needs to get his foot in the door and a good way to do that is to apply for temp work if that is available in Mexico where you live. Good luck.
Jim* July 6, 2018 at 12:33 pm And consider the intersection of roles – are there petroleum sales jobs with vendors, or wholesalers? What other things are interesting to him that by themselves have a lower barrier to entry (sales, support, etc), where having the degree would be a major benefit?
BF50* July 6, 2018 at 1:15 pm A finance degree is super helpful in finance, but I have known accountants and finance people with degrees in archeology, chemistry, polisci, psychology, and culinary arts.
Bacon Pancakes* July 8, 2018 at 7:07 pm My new favorite job title (someone called in on the radio): EMTD. English Major-Truck Driver
Buckeye* July 6, 2018 at 11:22 am My husband also has a degree that is fairly niche and was probably not the wisest choice in hindsight. He’s currently working retail, which is far from the dream, but it helps keep us afloat financially while he works on an online program to get a more useful certifications in a lateral field to his original degree. I don’t know what options your boyfriend might have in relation to petroleum engineering, but securing a job that doesn’t necessarily require a degree at all might provide some stability to look at long term options.
AnotherAlison* July 6, 2018 at 11:25 am I know several people I work with who graduated with petroleum engineering degrees in the 80s, during the previous oil boom. They ended up getting work as mechanical engineers instead. I also work with ChemEs who work as mechanicals. All the energy-related markets are very cyclical, and always have been, so this is not uncommon. I would say that I don’t think ME or ChemE hiring is extremely strong at the moment, but there are jobs to be had. Petroleum grads were making huge salaries straight out of school, so his expectations may need to be recalibrated to a “new grad” ME salary level.
KR* July 6, 2018 at 12:04 pm Can he move into renewables? I work in renewables and we have a lot of people who worked in fossil fuels or nuclear that switched over. Power generation is power generation and a lot of the same principals apply. Also, can he work in sales of parts relating to his field or in a support role for petroleum production/transport/ect? Maybe project planning or something. His engineering knowledge will help him a lot.
Jersey's mom* July 6, 2018 at 5:05 pm Check out utility corporations. They hire a lot of engineers. He may be able to get his foot in the door doing PE type work. Probably will need to start at entry level, but there is a market for engineers in nearly all energy fields.
sweet potatoes* July 6, 2018 at 12:04 pm Depending on the area of the country you live on, he could apply for engineering positions in maquiladoras. While most would request industrial engineers, the skills should be transferable enough that a case could be made for a wide variety of departments. Good luck!
Middle School Teacher* July 6, 2018 at 12:37 pm This would require more training, but I know a few petroleum engineers who are now high-level science teachers. Since they already have the degree, the B. Ed after-degree is only two years, not four, and they also start higher on the salary grid since they have more education. (Keep in mind this is in Canada, so I’m not sure if the US is similar.) Just a thought.
Cat Herder* July 6, 2018 at 10:52 pm If he’s a US citizen and wants to try teaching in the US, he should look into lateral entry. Lots of places are desperate for math and science teachers.
same boat, different sails* July 6, 2018 at 12:58 pm I have a degree in Chemical Engineering, minor in Petroleum Engineering so I have seen this from the inside too. If he has a Petroleum Engineering degree, most likely took several Chemical Engineering and Mechanical Engineering classes. There are so many job postings that list under requirements simply: “Engineering degree” or “chemical engineering degree, or equivalent”. He has an engineering degree, and it is NOT useless. Many companies would hire for certain positions someone with ANY engineering degree. I would say chemical, civil, and mechanical would be his best bet.
Thlayli* July 6, 2018 at 2:02 pm He could do a conversion course. He’s an engineer already so an additional one-year program (or even possibly a shorter course) could turn him from a petroleum engineer into a different type of engineer.
YetAnotherFed* July 6, 2018 at 4:45 pm Would he be interested in becoming a patent agent? With a bachelor’s in petroleum engineering, he would be eligible to sit for the Patent Bar exam. See https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/OED_GRB.pdf#page6 Not a guaranteed job, but it’s an alternative that would require him to use his engineering degree.
Sam Foster* July 6, 2018 at 9:58 pm As others have stated, look for intersections where skills are applicable. I started off as a chemical engineer bounced in to optical coating and then environmental testing only to end up as a computer programmer. My ability to perform analysis and solve problems got me the job each time. I won’t pretend it was easy though, it was much harder for me to get where I wanted to be than if I had started off with a Comp. Sci. degree. Regardless, I’m still there doing the same work as others.
Bacon Pancakes* July 8, 2018 at 7:11 pm Do you want to stay in Mexico? Texas has a lotta oil rigs! I am not sure if that would be something you are even interested in, but I would think his defree would transfee. Wait, was his degree from Mexico or are you living there… sorry. It’s been a long day.
Older Millennials Commiseration Thread* July 6, 2018 at 11:04 am It seems like every time I interview for a job, when I look later at who got it, it’s some 24 year old with two years experience + an internship. I’m 32. I have a hot mess of experience, because I graduated college in 2008. I changed career paths multiple times out of necessity (although there IS a common thread, and the past 5 years have been “stable”). I feel like hiring managers either view me as “flaky” or “overqualified” (I have received both as feedback—not the actual word flaky but that my experience is all over the place). But I’m not qualified for senior jobs because while I have 10 years experience, it’s not all in the same field…. Ugh. And don’t even get me started on ads that specifically ask for “3-5 years experience.” Anyway, older millennials commiserate here!
ExcelJedi* July 6, 2018 at 11:10 am 32 here, too, and I’ve been through QUITE a few different industries & 6-month jobs in the last decade. Do you have a good narrative for your experience and where you want to go? I’ve had a lot of success in framing my history as how I learned where I want to be, and showing that I’ve been more stable (same industry, though 3 jobs in 3 states) in the last 6 years or so. At my current job, I turned that into “and now I just want to be somewhere doing THIS thing in THIS industry for a long time) – which was absolutely true, and it worked.
Older Millennials Commiseration Thread* July 6, 2018 at 11:14 am How do you write your cover letter–going backwards (like now I’m doing this, before I did that), or chronological? Someone recommended writing chronologically to better explain who I got from A to B to C, but my letter got sooo long.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 11:19 am I don’t think your cover letter has to have any relationship with time, necessarily? You don’t want to be using it to walk through your resume (the resume should do that) but rather highlight specific things that are relevant to the job posting or your interest in it.
schnauzerfan* July 6, 2018 at 12:49 pm If you’ve covered your job history in your resume you don’t want to rehash everything in a cover letter. I see it more as emphasizing something that makes you a stronger candidate or explains something the hiring manager might be curious about. “Most of my work experience is in the tea cup painting field, but 2 years ago I did a llama bowl painting project that involved daily interaction with the beasts at Laughing Llama farms. The experience was a game changer for me. My part time job at, “Dancing with Llamas” came about as a result of that project, and I’m ready to take the next step and go full llama.” or “As you can see from my job history, I’ve lived in Paradise for several years and you may be wondering if I can adjust to life in Hades. I can say with certainty that I can. I spent half of my growing up years with my Aunt Satin in Purgatory and I just loved the changeable climate, the social life and the cries of the damned. Paradise is really rather bland and I’m eager to get back to a more vibrant community.”
Bacon Pancakes* July 8, 2018 at 7:26 pm “Go full Llama” will, from here-forth be my new catch-phrase. So basically you made this day a win.
AnnStanSam* July 6, 2018 at 11:26 am My experience is varied, and I don’t tell a story in my cover letter beyond the two sentences ExcelJedi mentioned above. I say X and Y have taught me that I really value Z in a job, and then the majority of the letter is devoted to explaining why my skills (from various jobs, not necessarily chronological) make me a good fit for the job I’m applying for.
ExcelJedi* July 6, 2018 at 11:52 am I don’t, really. My cover letter has a paragraph in it about how passionate I am about my industry, and a little bit about having experience increasingly in-line with the basic position. It’s definitely more focused on what I can bring to the company and where my ambitions within a new company would lie than explaining myself – any explanation comes off as incidental to *what I can do for them.* The most important part (IMHO) is 2-4 bullet points about specific projects that I’ve done exactly in-line with the position requirements. (The kind of things that may or may not be mentioned in my resume, but that I can expound upon in the CL.)
Anon Older Millenial* July 6, 2018 at 12:35 pm I recently incorporated a 3 line paragraph at the top of my resume essentially saying “Between Date and Date (a 2 year period, fyi) I worked primarily in client-facing positions outside of X industry; during this downtime I finished the requirements of my degree” and it seemed to go really well in the (albeit)one phone interview I had that asked me to explain. The person went “oh okay” and went on to ask about the applicable jobs I had included on my resume. Essentially I took non-career type jobs to pay the bills after being laid off from the job I left University for.
gecko* July 6, 2018 at 11:18 am I think that’s a good call. This would be a great use of your cover letter, to describe that narrative, but your resume could back it up with the points you highlight from each job. Definitely a difficult writing task, but a lot of potential to get where you want. To start it off I’d come up with an elevator pitch narrative based on a big element of what you want to be doing. Customer service, communications, management, whatever, and then see what you can draw out of each job that reflects that.
There is a Life Outside the Library* July 6, 2018 at 11:29 am Oh, yes my dude. Actually, I saw some article recently saying that older millennials saying that no one says “Hey, looking back we never made up for the fact that we didn’t hire anyone graduating in 2008- let’s fix that!” And it made total sense. In a life is totally unfair way, of course.
ExcelJedi* July 6, 2018 at 11:55 am YES. I was lucky. A lot of my friends are still in the dead-end minimum wage jobs they got when they graduated college, or going back for second bachelor’s degrees or graduate degrees because they think it will make up for the fact that they have no experience that required a college degree in the last 10 years. It’s still really upsetting, and no one notices!
aebhel* July 6, 2018 at 2:07 pm Yep. I also graduated in 2008. I’m doing pretty good, but most of my cohort, uh, isn’t. It’s a noticeable difference even for people five years younger than us–twentysomethings with career-track jobs versus thirtysomethings with college degrees still working retail and food service.
Violet* July 6, 2018 at 7:40 pm Yes, I graduated in 2008 as well. I went to graduate school, but a lot of my friends who graduated around the same time took YEARS to recover. Then there are all these think pieces about how we’re not buying houses and having babies. ::side-eye::
DArcy* July 6, 2018 at 9:11 pm The situation is pretty similar to the “lost generation” in Japan a few decades ago, plus a heaping dose of personal abuse piled on millennials by older generations.
Quickbeam* July 6, 2018 at 11:11 pm I’m a mid-boomer and I am too busy trying to wrangle myself a retirement to cast shade on any other generation. I will say this….without being any kind of jumbo brain, I easily worked my way through 2 degrees without a dollar of loans….primarily with on campus jobs. This was the 70s-80s. I have a tremendous respect and sympathy for millennials shouldering monster student debt. It’s just not fair. My nursing degree which cost 6K in the 1980s is now at 50k, tuition alone. Salaries did not go up 8 fold but tuition sure did.
Cedrus Libani* July 6, 2018 at 10:11 pm I was also a 2008 graduate, and my resume is…um, interesting. I was luckier than many, but it’s pretty clear that I spent years working odd jobs in the general orbit of my intended field, rather than taking the straight and narrow path. I worked a real, grown-up job in my field for seven months after graduation (then the economy ate it) – and then finally got another one, in 2018. It helps that I really was orbiting around my field with some degree of intention, and I can sell that narrative in an interview. (Why’d I take that job? Well, it was 2009 and I like sleeping indoors. But I took initiative in XYZ ways, and ended up responsible for ABC, and learned relevant skills PQR.) If you have a narrative, even one that required a stiff dose of hindsight to come up with, it really does seem to cut the head-scratching. In my cover letters, I also try to wave around what relevant experience I do have, so it doesn’t get lost – and the flip side of an unfocused resume is that I usually have SOMETHING to highlight.
KatieKate* July 6, 2018 at 11:16 am Are you tailoring your resume for each job or leaving every job you’ve had on it? You might be better off having sections for “relevant experience” and “other experience” depending on the jobs, or really honing in on the transferable skills you learned in each. And I have no idea if I’m right, but I tend to look at “years of experience” as work in general. You have 10 years of workplace experience–you just need to sell it better.
Commiserater* July 6, 2018 at 11:33 am I thought “years of experience” meant the number of years you’ve worked in the same exact position or the number of years you’ve used a specific skill set related to the job. So someone with 5 years of general office experience technically isn’t qualified for an accounting job that requires 5 years of experience.
Older Millennials Commiseration Thread* July 6, 2018 at 11:34 am It really depends on the job. usually they specify whether it’s work experience in general or field/responsibility-related.
KatieKate* July 6, 2018 at 11:54 am Fair–but most positions that want X years of a certain experience tend to ask it. Maybe it’s just my field (non profit) but jobs posting tend to be pretty general because aside from a few areas, we tend to be jills-of-all-trades. And even if a position specifies–say, 5 years of event planning experience–I feel comfortable fudging it with examples of the comparable experience I do have.
Antilles* July 6, 2018 at 12:02 pm It can really go either way. An accounting job asking for five years of experience almost certainly wants five years in accounting since they have specific technical needs; your five years working as an office manager in a lawyer’s office isn’t really relevant. On the flip side, a lawyer’s office looking for an office manager would probably be perfectly fine with someone who spent five years as an accountant – this demand for “five years’ experience” isn’t tied to a specific job skill as much as it’s a general reflection of the lawyer’s desire to have someone with experience in offices who knows how to resolve issues independently and juggle responsibilities.
strawberries and raspberries* July 6, 2018 at 11:18 am Are you me? I changed fields in my mid-twenties and there is also a very subtle (if not totally obvious) thread that usually knocks people out when I tell them the connection. I think emphasizing the consistency of all your experiences and showing that you understand nuances of what’s required for the field you want can go a long way. (In one of my more successful recent interviews for a job I’ve never done, I said something like, “While I haven’t worked directly with this issue, I’ve worked with a lot of clients who also struggle with it, and in context of [what I do], my strategy has been..” They seemed ready to hire me, except they were offering 24-year-old with two years and an internship salary, which, absolutely not.)
Discouraged Millennial* July 6, 2018 at 11:24 am I’m 27, so I kind of fall in the middle of the millennial age group. I never did an internship in my field during college for financial reasons, and when I graduated, I had a few interviews for jobs where my degree would be relevant, but I quickly gave up. Having no experience outside of school projects proved to be detrimental, and I even had an interviewer ask me why I wanted to get into marketing (my degree), and why wouldn’t I want to just stay in banking. (I worked full time as a bank teller throughout college.) I got discouraged, and now, all this time later, I still work at a credit union. I have moved up from teller, but I’m living paycheck to paycheck, and have still never used my stupid degree.
Audiophile* July 6, 2018 at 11:42 am I almost took a job in banking. It’s never too late to change fields, if that’s what you really want to do. There are commonalities between banking and marketing. Also, depending on how large your bank is, look on the corporate side for marketing roles.
Jadelyn* July 6, 2018 at 11:49 am Does your credit union have a marketing department? If they do, keep an eye out for openings. Sure it would be moving teams, but you’ve got the degree, and internal candidates are usually preferred anyway.
Triplestep* July 6, 2018 at 12:08 pm This is what I was going to suggest. I worked for a large bank HQ, and I was the only person on my team who had never worked in a branch. You would be really valuable to your company’s marketing department. You could even reach out to someone there and let them know what you want to do in Marketing so they know who you are should a position come up.
Jadelyn* July 6, 2018 at 12:21 pm This is also a good thing to note, and a selling point for getting involved beyond branch ops – I also work in a credit union, actually, in HR, and only one member of the HR team has ever worked in the branch ops side of things. And we rely on her ABSURDLY heavily to help translate “branch ops speak” for us. A manager comes to me and says, hey, my employee force-balanced and I want to have a coaching meeting with him about it, can you provide the write-up for him to sign? I’m going to have to start from “Wait, what the hell is force balancing?” Marketing is a bit different, but I can only imagine that having someone who’s got real boots-on-the-ground experience with members will have really valuable input on how best to reach the members with your marketing materials. What questions do they always ask? What products and services are they aware of and come to you about, vs the ones that you have to actively cross-sell because they’ve never heard that you do that particular type of loan or account before? That can help your marketing people identify areas to work on for their communications. Are the tchotchkes (how the hell is that spelled, anyway?) they give you to hand out at community events good quality, or junk that most people don’t even want? Marketing won’t necessarily know that because they’re not at the events interacting with people, but if you’re in branch ops, I’m sure you have the experience to know what you’re talking about.
Jim* July 6, 2018 at 12:37 pm I’m in software development for a credit union as well, and the members of my team with branch experience are incredibly valuable as well. For the OP, consider joining (or starting) a internal communications group as well, Marketing-ish, but employee focused.
Bacon Pancakes* July 8, 2018 at 7:38 pm I am pretty sure Force Balancing is what Yoda was trying to teach Luke on Degobah.
Discouraged Millennial* July 6, 2018 at 12:08 pm We do have a marketing department, but its one person, and she has been for a very long time. I doubt that she will be going anywhere any time soon. But, she knows that I have the marketing degree and has offered to include me in on projects when I’m not busy with my other work. I’m hoping that I can gain some experience that way.
Jadelyn* July 6, 2018 at 12:23 pm Take her up on that! Propose your own ideas for marketing outreach projects, based on your experience in the branch working directly with members. Who knows, you might be able to basically create a job for yourself if you can show evidence that you could bring enough benefit in expanding the marketing department’s ability to do efficient outreach to justify adding a second person to marketing.
Emily S.* July 6, 2018 at 11:25 am Oh geez, I have no advice, but can commiserate. Like you, I graduated college in 2008, the worst possible time. I never got into the industry I was aiming for (journalism degree, and media is a really competitive, tough field). I did multiple unpaid internships before giving up. I’m an admin now, which is okay, but not what I ever imagined I’d be doing at this stage of my life!
Not a journalist, Class of 2008* July 6, 2018 at 2:15 pm I, too, am a 32-year-old 2008 graduate with a journalism degree! I jumped around a bunch of non-profits with varying degrees of dysfunction and had a pretty good gig in local government before I took a break two years ago to freelance and stay home with my kid. My longest stay at any one place was just over 2 years. Now I’m trying to get back into the workforce and feel like my background makes me look like a terrible gamble, when in reality I’ve maintained freelancing relationships with nearly every job I’ve left and would love nothing more than stability. I have an interview to be an EA next week through a networking connection and I’m actually really excited for. I feel like the recession permanently altered my career arc. I’ve made the best of it, but it does suck. It feels good to hear other people my age talk about this bc while I’m sure I could have made different decisions and been in a different place, I have gone through my career feeling fundamentally deficient.
Class of '07* July 6, 2018 at 2:48 pm Ditto on the nonprofits: I have close to 10 years’ experience at dysfunctional nonprofits whose dysfunction kept me from moving up to a level where I could move out. I now have a hodgepodge resume threaded along a highly specialized risk management/risk prevention skillset, which no one wants because nonprofits would rather save money and risk a lawsuit than pay to function under industry best practices. I have no idea what to do with my life now.
Commiserater* July 6, 2018 at 11:27 am 31 here. I’ve had four full time jobs in the last eight years. I left them for valid reasons (like getting laid off), but I must look like a job hopper. I have a master’s degree, which I will usually keep on my resume for a few months every time I start job hunting again because it’s more relevant than my bachelor’s degree, and I feel horrible that all the work and money I pored into it might have been for nothing, but then I remove it since it repels any interest. Though all my jobs have required skills in a, b and c, the jobs themselves don’t make any sort of coherent career path and they haven’t been good experiences. I haven’t been able to accomplish anything, haven’t gotten promotions, haven’t gained any valuable knowledge or skills. I feel like fresh college grads are more desirable than me because they have potential, while I just have a track record of sucking. In high school and college, teachers told me I’d do great in the working world. I really was good at school, but I feel like a failure now.
Courageous cat* July 6, 2018 at 5:39 pm 31 as well, and also started working full-time 8 years ago – I don’t think that’s job hopping at all. An average stay of 2 years at each job (with I’m sure at least one job being more than that) seems fairly normal at this stage, *especially* with layoffs out of your control. I wouldn’t worry about it. I have 4 jobs on my resume too (though I’ve technically had more) and it’s never been an issue.
Princess Furball* July 6, 2018 at 11:30 am I don’t know how many times this has happened. If it’s just a few I wouldn’t worry about it. Hiring is weird. Otherwise I have 2 thoughts: 1) Are your salary expectations in line with the position? If you’re looking for a salary that reflects 10 years of work experience, but you really have 5 in the industry and the employer is willing to settle for 3, there might be a disconnect. 2) One idea might be to remove irrelevant jobs from your resume and omit the year of graduation. Really focus your resume to be tailored to the job you’re applying for. If you’re asked I wouldn’t lie, but it’s common to leave off early/irrelevant jobs once you’ve built an established work history. 3) Bonus thought: most people understand 2008 was a rough year for graduates. If you said to me as a hiring manager, “I graduated in 2008, which as you know was a tough time in the job market so I went to work as a Llama Wrangler. While it wasn’t exactly what I wanted to be doing in Teapot Operations, my experience there helped me build project management skills (or improve my public speaking or whatever skill might be relevant) that I can bring to xyz (responsibilities in prospective role).” Good luck!
Audiophile* July 6, 2018 at 11:36 am I’m also 32, majored in “communications” and when I graduated there were zero communications jobs. I bounced around a few different fields and fell into development in the nonprofit sector. I finally feel like I’m making some progress towards moving into the communications field and a real communications job. What helped in my case, was getting rid of all the non communications work history I had listed on my resume, even though that meant scrubbing a well known company from my resume. If your work history is more connected that may be a bit harder to do. I have received similar feedback in the past that my experience was too broad or unrelated to the role the company was looking to fill. I really started reviewing my resume more closely, took off jobs that from 2008-2015 (which ended up being 4 jobs, 3 of which were with the same employer). I think that cleared up some of the confusion and certainly stopped the feedback I was getting. Just some food for thought.
k.k* July 6, 2018 at 11:48 am I’m 31 and seem to be stuck in a perpetual loop of entry level jobs. I had to take whatever I could get at first, and now that I know what field I want to be in I’m still expected to “start at the bottom” despite my 10 years of work experience. I wouldn’t mind doing the grunt work for experience, but I have a mortgage and can’t afford the grunt work pay. In interviews I do a good job of explaining how my 10 years of seemingly unrelated jobs have transferable skills, but I have a hard time getting in the door. I try using my cover letter to explain, but I feel like they take one look at my resume, don’t see the job titles they recognize, and that’s it.
Older Millennials Commiseration Thread* July 6, 2018 at 12:29 pm ” I had to take whatever I could get at first, and now that I know what field I want to be in I’m still expected to ‘start at the bottom’ despite my 10 years of work experience.” Ugh, YES! I’m in nonprofit and it seems particularly bad. You’d think that transitioning from say, homeless services to affordable housing is as big a shift as brain surgery to race-car driving.
$!$!* July 6, 2018 at 12:55 pm I am laughing and crying at the same time. I empathize with you greatly
General Ginger* July 6, 2018 at 1:41 pm I have no good advice for you, but wow, the “perpetual loop of entry level jobs” thing is extremely relatable.
OhGee* July 6, 2018 at 11:53 am I’m 37, have been trying to leave my Toxic Job for the past year (I’ve been here nearly 4), and the last few jobs for which I’ve been a finalist but not The One have gone to either: a man under age 25 or an extremely accomplished woman over 50 (both of those were fundraising jobs for slightly different types of organizations, but I was a finalist for both). I absolutely do not understand the job market at all! All I can say is keep looking. “Overqualified” is a tough comment, but one you might be able to overcome by addressing it in a subtle way during interviews (or in your cover letter).
BuffaLove* July 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm I feel ya. I’m 28 and feeling pretty stable at this point, but a tiny part of me resents our more recent hires who were able to land great positions more or less right after graduation. I have another coworker who graduated college in 2008 and was underemployed for years and years until we hired her about a year and a half ago. I’ll echo some of the other comments and say that for her, things clicked because she was able to frame her years of lower-level, hands-on work as time spent learning the ins and outs of the business and figuring out that she wanted to be on the other side of the table, so to speak. Her soft skills are fantastic, and I know she really impressed everyone that she interviewed with.
Older Millennials Commiseration Thread* July 6, 2018 at 12:29 pm I know it’s not their fault but I definitely resent them too.
Luna* July 6, 2018 at 12:35 pm Ugh, I feel you. I graduated in 2006 so did get some work experience in before the recession hit- but, along with others my age, was part of the first round of layoffs in 2008. I was unemployed for a while, then finally got an offer and jumped on it. Ended up sucking, so I quit after a year and starting temping while I job searched. I got really lucky and landed in a great temp-to-perm job and ended up working at that company for 6 years. But once I was ready to move on it was near impossible to find another job. I spend the last 3 of the 6 years I worked there applying for other jobs, and was always told I was either overqualified, or they didn’t know what to make of my first 2-3 years of work experience because it didn’t fit neatly into a box. At one of the jobs I interviewed at I was meeting with an employee who was probably 23 or 24 years old (it was one of those places where I had to interview with every single person on the team) and she asked me why I had been at my job for so long- it REALLY pissed me off because I had only been there 5 years and had been promoted halfway through, so it’s not like I had no growth to show for my time there. Also, I liked that job! When I explained that I stayed because I liked the job, the people, and felt like I was still learning new things until recently she seemed so confused- as if the idea of staying at a job because you liked it was a totally foreign concept to her. I wanted to scream at her “because it was nice to finally have a few years of stability after years of dealing with layoffs, recessions, unemployment, and crappy under-employment!!” Ugh.
Alli525* July 6, 2018 at 1:18 pm You know, Some Dude on Some Comment Board a couple weeks ago started trying to mansplain why people in 2008 didn’t have it as bad as 2009 or 2010. I told him to sit down unless he graduated in 2008 (lol he was at least 20 years older than us). I too changed careers a lot, and ended up moving 800 miles away from home in the hopes that I could keep my head above water by temping until I found something permanent. The CEO at the job I took in 2012 looked at my resume and flat out asked me, “Do you even WANT a career, with all this hopping around you’ve done?” I’m glad he (and his favorite employee, my supervisor) took a chance on me because I was there for 4 years, worked my way up, and was the example most of the senior execs pointed to when they needed their admin to do something that I’d mastered previously. In the job I took after that one (my current job), I found out that my main competition for the job was, yes, about 5 years younger than me, but apparently my experience won out. You haven’t found the right match yet, that’s all. I don’t have a ton of advice, really, since you said you’ve already found your common thread… from here on out it just boils down to being convincing in your interviews that you know what your skills are and you know how those skills can benefit the interviewer.
Older Millennials Commiseration Thread* July 6, 2018 at 1:37 pm Ugh at both the 2009 vs 2008 comment and the CEO’s question! I’m glad that you’ve found a niche though.
LuJessMin* July 6, 2018 at 1:29 pm I’m a baby boomer, and I agree with you! I have 25+ years experience in oil and gas, have always received excellent or superiors, and was laid off through no fault of my own (as far as I know). But…I don’t have a college degree. And I’m 60. So why hire me when they can hire someone fresh out of college and pay them half of what I was making. Oh, well, I’m liking retirement better anyway.
kab* July 6, 2018 at 1:36 pm In 2008 (I was 23), I had already not graduated from college, and was working at a Chick Fil-A. That year, I started working as a legal assistant. I was able to use that experience to get a job at an e-discovery firm. It was a backwards step that was problematic for a couple of years, but now I’ve been here for 7 years and am in management, with a decent career trajectory and decent pay.
Marion the Librarian* July 6, 2018 at 2:32 pm I can relate to this thread so much! Graduated in 2008. After a year and half of cobbling together part-time work, I went into grad school in 2011. Came out the other side with no openings in my area (archiving), so I moved back into non-profit work, which I had experience from my time between undergrad and grad. I loved the work but got burnt out and after 3.5 years, moved across the country and landed a job using my MA in an archive. I’ve been at my current job for 2 years but finding I need more social interaction, so I’ve been casually looking at non-profit jobs again. Had a few interviews but they are all for entry-level positions and it bums me out because the work is not the challenge I’m looking for. I’m pretty good at tailoring my resume and cover letter, but I’ve had two instances in the past month where I applied for the higher level position (post-entry level development) and they want to interview me for the entry-level position. I might stay put at my current job for a little longer since there are some big changes. But I’m glad to know others have struggled with this when job hunting.
Older Millennials Commiseration Thread* July 6, 2018 at 2:43 pm I had been contemplating this for a while, but I finally decided to shave some years off my resume/age. I went to grad school after the economy crashed, in the same city I went to undergrad in. I had internships while in grad school. I removed my graduate school from my resume (it’s an academic degree and thus “useless” even though I’m an analyst everything I learned about analyzing things I learned there… anyway) and removed my graduation year from undergrad. So combined with the internship dates, it effectively looks like I graduated 5 years later than I did without removing too much experience.
voluptuousfire* July 6, 2018 at 4:06 pm I thought about doing that, but it would leave off the last job I had any stability at. Overall I can relate to this thread, despite being a very late GenXer.
Lindsay J* July 6, 2018 at 6:27 pm Commiseration here. It’s been a good year when I’ve only had one job. I’ve had three distinct “career paths”. Only in the last couple years have I made enough to sustain myself. And I still feel like I’m waiting for the other foot to drop – like somehow I don’t deserve this and it’s g0ing to suddenly be taken away from me and I’ll have to go back to doing retail for $8 an hour again. Coming up with a cohesive sort of narrative for your jobs helps. Mine is that I found that I liked doing “behind the scenes” work, where, my assistance to internal customers helps them to help our actual customers. And that I like working in an industry where we’re working to make a special day in someone’s life even more special. The narrative makes a disparate mess of jobs make more sense, and makes it seem like maybe I planned this (even though I definitely did not. I just sort of fell into my current industry). I feel like there are a couple people I graduated with that are super successful, and the rest of us barely have careers at all. (Or other trappings of adult life like homes, children, reliable cars, etc).
AngelicGamer the Visually Impaired Peep* July 6, 2018 at 8:26 pm Let’s see… graduated in 2008. After a few months of searching, I took a retail job (Borders) because I felt I needed to and I wanted some time between school and grad school. Worked that for 2 years, tried finding more work and couldn’t, along with my hours being shafted to two 8 hour days on the weekend when I was a full time employee. So I took a volunteer to possible paid job. That didn’t turn out because of the fact that I refuse to go to church as I am not religious – it was a job on the campaign of then Senator Obama. Did that until election day, started looking for work again. Couldn’t even get my foot in the door because all admin jobs that I could get a phone screen for wanted someone who would admin / personal assistant so you had to be able to drive. Or it was a bait and switch where they really wanted you to sell insurance. Gave up after a solid 3 years of looking, became a full time caretaker to my grandmother until she died five years ago, and am on SS / SSDI due to the rules for blind people. Now I’m trying to get published and that’s going to happen, damnit. Even if I have to self publish. However, I’m now trying to get a job again because I feel like a miserable flake mooch on my mom. I know I’m not. I pay rent, I do everything around the house, but the feelings are still there. I really don’t want to go back into retail at all. I’d love to do admin work but people want experience that I don’t have. Also, my retail job went out of business, so I have no references other than friends who have worked with me. Joy. Sorry for the rant/ dumping things out.
Triple Anon* July 6, 2018 at 11:33 pm I have the same problem. I’m slightly older than Millennial, but my experience is all over the place and my resume looks flaky. So I’ve worked on making a good impression in person. When I have time to network, it really pays off. When I don’t have time, woe is me. That’s where I am right now, but I keep feeling like things will turn around and get better.
Jane* July 7, 2018 at 7:58 am I graduated in 2012, and have found it so hard to find a job period. I’m considered over qualified for a lot of jobs because of my degree, and have worked with two different employment agencies to find work – One did find me a job running a puppy day care (I had previous volunteer experience with animals), but that crashed and burned pretty quickly, then I tried running my own dog walking business but that didn’t really take off either and I realised I didn’t really want to work with animals even though I love them. Since then I’ve done tons of volunteer work, and was encouraged/pushed into doing post grad studies to try and work in a library (sadly that field in my country seems to be shedding jobs like crazy so there’s nothing going). Now I’m just depressed about the lack of employment. I know my patchy work history is affecting how I look and I have a disability as well which doesn’t help things. Sorry I’m just being a bummer here.
I prefer the term “X-ennial”* July 8, 2018 at 10:30 pm I graduated in 2007 with a degree in Biology and an emphasis in Wildlife Ecology but at 26 (it took me a while – and a two year ‘break’ from school to find my path). This is a career that requires a lot of specialization: darting deer is different from rocket netting ducks is different from kayaking for otter scat (poop). When I graduated, it was all about “seasonal jobs for the experience until you land a job with the state/Feds”. But most seasonal jobs require 3-5 years experience… that you are suposed to get through volunteering. It is no surprise that this field lacks diversity- it is heavily dominated by Boomer-WASPs. We were sung to bed at night with lullabies of these Boomers retiring and jobs abounding (I look back and eyeroll at the naïvety of this). Instead… when jobs are left for retirement, they are often eliminated. And with the current US administration, well…. After graduation I took a fisheries job in Alaska for six months and then jumped into Grad School. I have been fortunate that I found my state gig (six and a half years!), but it took working three jobs at once and eight years of seasonal work. Constantly being on the job hunt is STRESSFUL! But a lot of the jobs are 6wks to 6 months and you might not find that out until after the position starts and funding gets cut! Meanwhile, colleges that offer Wildlife Biology degrees keep pumping graduates out of their impacted programs and there is simply no space for them. So yes, I feel ya!
Millennial Woes* July 11, 2018 at 12:10 pm Joining in the millennial commiseration! I had a part-time office job toward the end of college and by the time I graduated there was just no paid work to be found so I stayed with the office and eventually became the office manager right after I graduated due to more senior people leaving the company. I tried to find work in my field of study so I could leave the office but there just wasn’t anything there. I think I found two interviews for actual jobs (didn’t get them) and everything else was unpaid internships. And then the company where I was an office manager ended up folding like four months later due to the economy. I tried to grab freelance jobs related to my field of study to show that I was still committed, but those were slow coming and I still needed to like… eat… and buy toilet paper… I ended up losing my apartment and staying with friends. By that point I had given up and just took whatever I could find. For three years I worked retail, as a farm hand, I was a substitute teacher for 6 months, worked at summer camps, anything to make a buck. I tried to stick to teaching but that’s not where my degree was and there was no way I could afford to go back to school. Once the economy started to recover the only thing I had to fall back on was my office experience, because that was the last solid job I held. I never ended up getting into my field of study and now I’m working admin in finance. My employer even paid for me to take an intro college course to better understand the field, which I’m grateful for, but this isn’t what I wanted to do with my life. I’m stuck and I feel like there’s no recovering from it because I can’t change my work history, and if I take out everything that was short-term or unrelated to my field than I have zero work experience….
sheila_cpa* July 6, 2018 at 11:06 am I could use some help letting go! Today is my last day at my job. I’ve trained my replacement to the best of my ability, I’ve left a bunch of notes, the necessary people (and only those people *g*) have my contact info…but I woke up at 3:30 this morning worrying about what I’d missed or not addressed well enough, and what mistakes of mine might come up and make me look bad after I leave, making life harder for my replacement and affecting my references. How do I stop worrying and love my non-employment?
Namast'ay in Bed* July 6, 2018 at 11:14 am Congrats on leaving! It sounds like you’ve done what you can and then some. There’s always going to be a bit of a transition period, but life will go on. It’s sweet that you’re so concerned about your replacement, but after today that is literally not your job. Imagine if you got hit by a bus instead of quitting. Not to doubt your importance or skills, but the company would find a way to survive without you – the fact that you’ve trained a replacement and left notes, and even allowed for the option of people to contact you with questions means that they are left in a very good place. Now get through today and walk out without a care in the world, you’ve earned it! Congrats again and good luck with what’s next for you!
Opting for the Sidelines* July 6, 2018 at 11:22 am Yep. Came here to say the same thing. Leaving is hard. It does cause anxiety. You are leaving something that you know and know well for a future that is full of unknown! Alison wrote a great post on the anxiety of quitting back in May. It was more about the anxiety of giving notice but I think some of the advice may resonate. Just search “quitting” here at AAM and it will pop up. BTW, by tomorrow morning, once you have physically left, I think you will feel a lot, a lot differently. This is what everyone was telling me (I just left my old job a few weeks ago) and they were very, very right.
Sarah Peterson* July 6, 2018 at 11:21 am You’ve done so much more than most people do and that is a credit to you. When I left my last job, I reminded them they could now blame me for everything that went wrong for at least a year or until they hired a new person to blame. I’m sure they are thrilled with all the training and documentation they did and happy for you that you are on to a new phase in your life, so please enjoy it!
Girl from the North Country* July 6, 2018 at 11:26 am Well, you said that the necessary people have your contact info, so trust that if something was horribly wrong (the type of thing you worry would affect your references), they would reach out to you and ask for your help. Honestly, the fact that you even left your contact info behind puts you in good standing with them already. Not to mention that you seem to have put in a lot of effort into ensuring a smooth transition, which is really all an employer can ask for when someone leaves. Sounds like you’re all good to me!! ENJOY YOUR FREEDOM!!
BadWolf* July 6, 2018 at 11:38 am For someone who’s willing/good at actually reading directions — you’ve probably provided more than average. Good job! For someone who needs their hand held, no amount of documentation is going to help them. So you did what you could.
Mockingjay* July 6, 2018 at 12:08 pm For someone who needs their hand held, no amount of documentation is going to help them. I am putting this on a plaque.
AdminX2* July 6, 2018 at 12:05 pm Are you putting any energy yet into planning this new time and new adventure? If all you’re doing is focusing on this, then it makes sense this is happening. Second, if they really need something, it’s not problem- they just hire you as a consultant for $150 an hour.
KR* July 6, 2018 at 12:07 pm I think it helps to know that you will probably forget something and there will probably be a point where your replacement might curse under their breath about something you did or didn’t do but that is inevitable and you did the best you could. You can’t go back now.
Courageous cat* July 6, 2018 at 6:14 pm That’s always my biggest fear when leaving a job, is that they will find out I did something wrong at some point and will hate me forever and never talk to me or give me a reference again. This has never happened, even once when a former boss *did* find out something very wrong I did – and we’re still friends! One way to mitigate that feeling is to just keep in touch occasionally with former bosses/coworkers/etc and ask them how everything is going and so on. It will take any guessing out of it.
Washi* July 6, 2018 at 11:06 am This seems like something that might have come up before, but isn’t jumping out from the archives: what is a write-up? I’ve never worked anywhere that used them, but I keep seeing them mentioned here. When does one get a write up? What is written and where does it go? Are there usually other consequences, or is it like getting sent to the principal’s office, where the main consequence is embarrassment and the feeling of “getting in trouble”?
BlueWolf* July 6, 2018 at 11:12 am I’ve never had one, and I’m sure it varies by company (if they actually use them), but my understanding is that it’s basically a written warning that goes in your employment file and if you get a certain number that it can lead to consequences such as suspension, termination, etc.
Murphy* July 6, 2018 at 11:14 am My understanding is that it’s formal documentation of an issue/behavior. It can be a precursor to letting someone go. (Not that everyone who gets a write-up will be let go, but that it can be used to demonstrate a recurring issue when letting someone go.)
strawberries and raspberries* July 6, 2018 at 11:19 am Yeah, at my org you get written up for the first time after a persistent pattern of whatever the poor behavior is (and have probably received many verbal warnings). The write-up contains a short “how we’re going to address this problem” and offers a chance for a second and then a final write-up before it moves to a corrective action plan. Usually one write-up is enough to stop the problem before it escalates to corrective action plan.
Former Retail Manager* July 6, 2018 at 1:09 pm Correct. How many write-ups, what they’re for, and how frequently they’re doled out really depends on your industry. In retail, they were utilized as documentation to begin the process of letting someone go when all efforts to correct an issue with them verbally and via “coaching” (God I hate that word) had been unsuccessful. My mother used to work for a company in which all supervisors were required to write you up for even minor infractions…..3 write-ups = termination. More than 3 days off work without a doctors note = write-up / More than 5 mins late returning from break or lunch = write-up. It really depends. Most jobs I’ve seen/know of that use them, tend to be lower-paying, hourly jobs that require butts in seats. Write-ups at a professional job is usually a wake-up call to get it together ASAP or start looking elsewhere. If you’re getting a write-up in a professional environment, you are probably on someone’s radar.
Existentialista* July 6, 2018 at 1:26 pm At my employer, it’s used as the second step of a disciplinary process. If there’s a performance issue or behavior that needs to be addressed, the warnings go from “verbal” to “written” to “final”, followed by termination.
CAA* July 6, 2018 at 11:18 am It’s a letter or form that’s put in your personnel file. Sometimes the employee has to sign it, sometimes they don’t. Some companies have a policy of firing after a certain number of writeups. Sometimes it’s just there to be a record that future managers or HR can refer to so that they know whether what they’re seeing is a pattern or not.
Hellanon* July 6, 2018 at 12:36 pm In my company, a “write up” is documentation for the employee’s file that you-the-supervisor have had a conversation concerning an area of performance. For example, I included a mention about her work quality needing to improve in my assistant’s first review; two months later, no improvement had happened despite frequent (informal but pointed) conversations, so I put her on a PIP. The documentation for that included the issue and the plan, and a timeline, and she was asked to sign it as acknowledgement that the consequences could include termination if she couldn’t get it together. She couldn’t, and I terminated her employment at the end of the PIP. But having the documentation gave me a framework for working with her & allowed me to be sure termination was not a surprise, and allowed me to work with HR throughout the process to ensure that it was fair.
NaoNao* July 6, 2018 at 2:57 pm Generally they’re used in lower level jobs like retail or food service, or call centers. Occasionally you’ll see them in “office jobs” but not often, which might be why they’re not mentioned very much here. A “write up” is a formal written documentation of a negative event or pattern. It usually goes into a personnel file—either online or in a physical drawer/file somewhere. Generally, something like “Employee was 17 minutes late to work for their scheduled shift on Tuesday, March 04, 2009, after being told that any further tardiness would result in a write up. Employee acknowledges the tardy. Any further tardiness after this write up will result in a final warning, and could result in a termination.” As others have pointed out, it’s often the first step towards being fired, but occasionally people can turn it around. Sometimes it’s a “technical thing” like you the employee made a judgement call but management disagrees and you have to accept a write up. I got a written warning for losing my work laptop on a train (I left it behind in a moment of absent mindedness) and it’s considered a “Code of Conduct violation” since we’re expected to keep track of and protect company property. So it affected my review and bonus slightly, and for about a year afterwards I was extra careful not to make any other serious mistakes. Other than that, I haven’t had a “write up” in years!
Promotion Limbo* July 6, 2018 at 11:06 am I started at my current employer a couple years ago. My role turned out to be significantly more expansive that what was described but I managed to exceed expectations. I was told by my manager, without asking, that she was working on a promotion and a raise. This would really only align my title and salary to the scope of my role. It’s been months now and I’ve tried asking for a timeline but I hear back soon or I asked Jane who said yes but now I need to ask Fergus. I would normally assume it’s not going to happen and I know that’s the best thing to do but my manager semi-frequently brings it up without me asking. I did eventually get a raise but the promotion means a lot to me. Would I be ok to ask (professionally) what the hold up is? Again, I know I should just move on mentally but I get very worked up about this and due to a variety of reasons will be stuck at this job for awhile. Thank you in advance for your help!
Jessi* July 6, 2018 at 11:36 am I think so? Next time your manager brings it up say something like “hey you’ve been mentioning this promotion for x months/ weeks now. I am really keen/ interested in getting this. Do you have any idea what the timeline is for this?”
Promotion Limbo* July 6, 2018 at 12:22 pm That’s how I’ve handled things and I hear back something like “soon.” I want to ask something more along the lines of what’s the hold up or even is there something I’m not getting. I seem to have lost the ability to ask those questions with professional wording though.
Lora* July 6, 2018 at 1:22 pm Heh, this is like when someone asks me “how much Material X do we need for Process Y” and I stare at them blankly for a minute and then say, “uh, a buttload?” because I do not have literally every chemical process in the entire world memorized. Eventually my boss, who sits next to me, asked if “a buttload” is actually just five. It doesn’t matter five what (teaspoons, kg, L, metric tons), it’s five. How much do you need? Five. When will the thing arrive? Soon.
Alli525* July 6, 2018 at 1:23 pm “Can you provide a little more clarity on the timeline? I’m working on my budget for next year/trying to plan a vacation/want to adopt a dog and it would be very helpful to have as much information as I can.” Or something along those lines – just a gentle reminder that life decisions can’t be put on hold indefinitely.
Existentialista* July 6, 2018 at 1:35 pm I would also add “Is there anything I can put together to help you make the case?” Headcount and salary level decisions are often made by HR or at levels way above one’s manager, so they might need some more support and documentation to convince the powers that be.
AdminX2* July 6, 2018 at 12:08 pm I know this exact Q is in the AMA archives so do look. It may help to write down exactly what your expectations are and have them compared to your hired expectations. Next one on one or review period, ask to go through them and where they think your career progression should go. Reiterate you love what you do but know it’s time to re-label the role to better align with its activities.
Justme, The OG* July 6, 2018 at 1:54 pm Promotion limbo fistbump! My boss did the same thing. I know where mine is in the process, I work in academia (state university) so there are a million hoops to jump through. It doesn’t make it any easier, though.
Jerry Vandesic* July 6, 2018 at 7:39 pm They have already indicated that your promotion is not a priority for them. Maybe not in so many words, but you need to listen to what they are saying by their actions. Take this as valuable feedback about how they value you, and use it as motivation to look around for a new job. Find a job with the salary and title you are looking for, and move on.
GM* July 9, 2018 at 1:33 am Exactly! I’m in the same situation and couldn’t agree more. THey’ve asked me to wait, which I’m willing to for a max of 6 months, then I’m going to start searching seriously. Right now its just a half-hearted effort (both at work and at the job-search!)
Anon for This* July 6, 2018 at 11:06 am This is just venting more than anything, but we have this customer at work who smells really bad. Like really, really bad. She comes in at least twice a week, and her visits are never short. She isn’t one to just do what she needs to do and leave. I get the feeling that she doesn’t have a lot of friends or people in her life, and she likes to visit everyone, telling us all about what’s new in her life. Currently, she is sitting outside my office chatting with another employee about her week, and the smell is overbearing. I think I might go camp out in the bathroom for a little bit just to get away from the smell.
SallyF* July 6, 2018 at 11:29 am I can definitely commiserate! When I worked in a bank there was a customer who always smelled like a combination of mildew and old, stale fried onions. To top it off, she liked to stand at the counter, lingering, long after the transaction was complete, and talk about Jesus and how I (or any teller assisting her) needed saving.
Anon for This* July 6, 2018 at 11:36 am Definitely body odor and maybe lack of bathing? Oddly enough, I like the smell of patchouli. Lol.
Anonymosity* July 6, 2018 at 1:05 pm I do too, but it’s not a substitute for a shower. I’m looking at you, random hippie-ish person I had to stand behind in line, one day long ago. >_<
TGIF!* July 6, 2018 at 12:47 pm I worked as an optician for several years a while back, there was one time when an older lady came in and as a coworker was helping her they noticed that there were ants…..falling out of her hair…. onto the work counter.
Daphne* July 6, 2018 at 4:54 pm Yep, my jaw has silently fallen to the floor. And I work retail so have seen my fair share of the “great unwashed”.
Chaordic One* July 6, 2018 at 1:40 pm This brings back memories of two of my old high school business teachers. They were both in their 50s and seemed ancient to me then. They both wore a ton of perfume and you could smell them coming down the hallways, long before you ever saw either one of them. They both dressed well and looked clean, but I kind of wonder if maybe they didn’t bathe regularly and tried to cover it up with perfume. If so, it didn’t work, and I think it made things worse.
Catalin* July 6, 2018 at 2:12 pm Strongly recommend a Febreeze small rooms thingy, the type that sit on desks/bathroom sinks and continuously release. I have both a smelly smoker neighbor at work and a sensitivity to smells, this thing is a lifesaver.
The Good Boss* July 7, 2018 at 4:56 am It sounds like you have a smelly situation to solve! I also have a sensitivity to smells and multiple sclerosis, and unfortunately Febreze literally makes me sick — disoriented, nauseous, and faint. There are some awesome alternatives which can be found by doing a Google search for: non-toxic air fresheners
Annon too* July 6, 2018 at 3:03 pm I trained to be a hairdresser. There was this mother and daughter, we used to call them the Duo. Who did not believe in bathing too much, but especially would not wash their hair. They only came to the beauty school to have their hair washed, every six weeks. They had a build up of crud on their scalp and hair. I would scrub with my nails until the teachers would make me stop. Honestly, I was trying to find their scalp. The crud resembled feta cheese. To this day, I can only eat a limited forkful of feta cheese.
Zona the Great* July 6, 2018 at 3:44 pm Oh no! I was in Target once in my early 20s and I guess a woman one aisle over had just vacated my aisle. Her perfume was that very iconic Old Lady Smell that is somehow still being produced. This woman had to have bathed in it. I loudly exclaimed, “oh my god, that is literally the worst perfume I have ever smelled!” and the woman actually came around the corner and confronted me telling me I was speaking about her and her perfume. I just said, “I’m sorry, I had no idea anyone was around though that odor is incredibly offensive to me” and she walked away. Oops!
As Close As Breakfast* July 6, 2018 at 4:25 pm I had once had a job for a government social services program. For a while I worked at the front desk checking in clients. The front desk and reception area were shared with another government social services program and the place was almost always hopping. For reasons (types of services, etc.) many MANY of the people who came in had hygiene issues. On more than one occasion, a body odor would be so bad I would be violently fighting off my gag reflex. I couldn’t leave the desk unattended under any circumstances so my options were limited. The only thing, seriously the ONLY thing, that worked for me was to keep a jar of Vicks VapoRub at my desk. If it got bad, I’d duck under my desk (so as not to offend any clients) and slather that stuff all over my upper lip and lower nose. Like, I’d rub some up into my nostrils sometimes. Infinitely better than throwing up at the desk. If someone asks about it because they notice the shiny, just say you’re a bit congested and it works great to open you up, worked for me!
Lunch Meat* July 6, 2018 at 11:07 am If people comment on my clothes at work, is it tacky or unprofessional to tell them I got it from a thrift store?
Higher Ed Database Dork* July 6, 2018 at 11:12 am No, I see nothing tacky or unprofessional about getting your clothes at a thrift store. Lots of people love thrifting and might find it interesting. Most people don’t care where clothes come from.
Envy Adams* July 6, 2018 at 11:13 am I would say no! Although I am in the UK so cultural norms may be different here. Me and a colleague recently had a conversation about how both of our entire outfits came second hand from eBay, and how much we love shopping on there :)
KL* July 6, 2018 at 11:22 am I hope not. I have a few coworkers that comment on what I wear and I usually say say it’s second hand. Granted, one of my coworkers like to comment on how many clothes I own and then how she can’t find clothes her size at consignment/poshmark/thredup/thrift. I just smile and go about my day. It’s also helped my find fellow thrifters at work. To me, thrifting a fun topic and it’s a good way to get to know some of the other people I spend so much time with everyday.
fromscratch* July 6, 2018 at 11:25 am I’m always rather proud of my thrift store finds! Especially if they are garnering comments.
Susan Sto Helit* July 6, 2018 at 11:26 am Sustainable clothing is increasingly a thing (check out TRAID in the UK, for example) so no, not in the least. You can find some really cool clothing in thrift stores.
SallyF* July 6, 2018 at 11:32 am No way, thrifting is pretty mainstream. I was going to link to Maclemore’s Thrift Shop video but then I realized that might offend some people. :-)
Ex-Academic, Future Accountant* July 6, 2018 at 7:00 pm Yeah, that song will always be linked in my mind with disgusting anti-Semitism.
pleaset* July 6, 2018 at 11:51 am Depends on the culture. My partner is from China and grew up quite poor. And she finds the concept of used clothes quite strange – to her new is always better. Talking about buying in a thrift store is not something she thinks would be good. If you were confessing it to a friend “I got a deal, can you believe how nice this is” she might think it’s OK. But otherwise, for someone making OK money the perception would be “WTF”? I don’t think she’s alone in this perception.
Triplestep* July 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm Yup, this. Where I live (small city) I would hear “cool!” Where I work (small town) I’d be met with a sneer and a stare and the person thinking “yuck” and “why?”
Lora* July 6, 2018 at 1:38 pm Yeah, this. I like to mess with people who are all about the fashion though: I get a LOT of hand-me-downs from more fashionable friends. It’s definitely the cool thing to do in the city.
twig* July 6, 2018 at 12:29 pm I say no! I’m always proud of the deals I get (I found these shoes for $5 at AwesomeStore!) I will say that at one point I worked at a high end housing development (the “cheap” houses in the development were $300k)– my coworkers would look at me weird/not respond with enthusiasm when I’d tell them what a deal I got on something. I did not fit in well there socially — but I was there for 4 years and one of the last to get laid off when the housing bubble burst. All that to say — it’s not tacky or unprofessional at all.
LKW* July 6, 2018 at 12:34 pm When it comes to this question there are two types of people: Those who tell you how much they spent and those who tell you how little they spent. If you are the latter group and tell someone in the former group, they will see it as tacky. If you tell someone in the latter group they will want to know your secrets and they will tell you the great bargains they got as well. You just need to know your audience.
PizzaDog* July 6, 2018 at 12:46 pm No way! In my experience, when the answer to ‘where’d you get that?’ is a thrift store or even TJ Maxx, the answer to that is ‘oh, I wish I had the patience to find something that nice there.’
samiratou* July 6, 2018 at 1:06 pm Definitely not. At least in MN, where it’s a badge of honor to announce how “lowly” the origins are of the garment you’ve been complimented on. Particularly if it’s a nicer brand–then you pretty much have to mention that you got it on sale or at a thrift store (assuming you did, of course).
Former Retail Manager* July 6, 2018 at 1:15 pm I think it depends on your workplace culture. If it’s a law firm, bank, or other super conservative place, I might just say “thanks.” Or maybe add that you got a great deal on it. If you work someplace more creative/less judgmental, then I’d totally tell them it’s one of your awesome thrift finds. I personally enjoy thrifting even though I never find much. I’d love some good store recommendations from a co-worker.
Chaordic One* July 6, 2018 at 1:49 pm It kind of depends on who you are dealing with. Personally, if you were to have told me this, you would have my admiration because I (and many others) think that finding nice clothes at a thrift store is a sign of industriousness and virtuous thrift. (Saying you bought them at a thrift store is kind of a “humble brag,” but not a particularly bad thing.) However, every once in a while, you’ll run into a certain kind of snob who will look down on you because you buy your clothes at thrift stores (or discount stores like Target and Walmart). If I know that a certain person is a snob, I don’t say anything. Or if I don’t know the person well enough to know what they might be thinking, I would also not say anything.
Jennifer Thneed* July 6, 2018 at 2:16 pm It is tacky to respond to “I like your shirt” with “Thanks, I got it at Department Store”? If that’s okay, then mentioning the thrift store *should* be fine. But we all know some people have Opinions. For me, I save the “where I got it” for people actually asking where I got something. Maybe I’m odd that way? I like to just accept a compliment with “Thank you!” and leave it at that unless asked further.
EditGirl* July 6, 2018 at 4:37 pm I agree on saving the info on where you got it for people who ask. A lot of people probably just don’t care.
Bea* July 6, 2018 at 2:29 pm Not at all. They like your style and if they suddenly judge that you’re good at scoring them second hand, they’re dumb. Nothing wrong with thrifting when you’re looking good!
Urdnot Bakara* July 6, 2018 at 3:35 pm If you’re worried about how “thrift store” might come across (which sucks but I get it), maybe you could say you bought them secondhand?
Delta Delta* July 6, 2018 at 4:19 pm In my geographic area, people generally love the thrift stores. The managers of the thrift stores around my area are pretty picky about what they put out for sale, so people know if they go there they’re going to get things in decent condition. It’s very common for people to say something like, “like this jacket? Got it for $6 at ThriftyWorld!” This usually gets high-fives.
rosie* July 6, 2018 at 4:46 pm I am a big Poshmark fiend and love to show off my finds (I just bought a pair of Everlane heels from there for 30% off and I am SO PUMPED) but I do agree it may depend on the industry. You could always say you bought it on vacation or from “a boutique”!
nep* July 6, 2018 at 5:58 pm If people ask where an item of clothing is from (and sometimes even when they just compliment it without asking), yes, I’ll say it’s from a thrift store, including–usually the case for me–thredUP.
Kuododi* July 6, 2018 at 8:33 pm I don’t see why it should be a problem. I don’t shop at thrift stores personally but it’s not bc Ive got a beef with the concept. I just haven’t found a thrift store in my area which caters to my size. (Petite length, plus size). I am a power shopper otherwise and am happy to tell anyone who expressed an interest in what I’m wearing where I found the latest sale. If someone else wants to get their boxers in a bunch bc I mentioned a good sale then it’s their problem not mine.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 11:07 am Quick note on the current case: met with my attorney. I cannot say anything about the case. Let my last words on it be: my plan is kick ass, take names and bury the bodies. I have the number one employment attorney in Florida handling this for me. I will NOT go down without a righteous fight. These jerks are going to pay for their ignorance. In the July 4th open thread, someone expressed an interest in hearing about how I learned to go scorched earth. That happened back on ’08, when I was approached by the FTC for assistance taking down my employer. Here is that nasty tale. (Sorry for the length!) ******************************************* In 2008, I worked for about 2 months for a mortgage mitigation company. They would step in and help out with your mortgage company if you were behind in payments. They’d get it so you could keep your home with modified payments for a period of time. They charged upwards of $1,000 for this service. The service they provided was a service the homeowner could have undertaken for themselves, had they known. I was hired to be the Executive Assistant to one of the presidents of the company. A fat, sweaty guy who always smelled bad. But I was paid well. Day in and day out I handled calls from consumers who were losing their homes. “Your company said you’d save my home and I’m standing on the courthouse steps watching them auction my home!” I don’t remember how many calls like that I handled. I started pressuring the president “Look, you can’t avoid these calls. You need to handle this situation!” And he would do nothing. One Monday, and I no longer recall how this came up, he and I were talking and I revealed that I had been LAPD for 5 years right out of college. The next day I was fired. (Interesting, huh?). This is where it gets kind of scary. On Wednesday, I received a call on my (listed in my mom’s name) cell phone. It was an attorney with the FTC. She identified herself and stated she knew I was the Executive Assistant to the president. She told me the FTC was investigating my employer and I had a choice to make. If I chose to continue to have my employer’s back (which I really never did), they would add me to the list. It would not end well for me. Or, if I chose to cooperate with the FTC, my life wouldn’t change at all and I’d be doing the right thing. I informed her that I had been fired the day before and asked if there was some paper I needed to sign to cooperate? If so send it along, and I’ll FedEx it back to you. (What was kind of scary was how they found me….my cell phone is listed in my parents’ name and—at the time—wasn’t associated with my name anywhere so how in the world did they find me? Yeah, it’s the government. If they want to find you, they will.) That was Wednesday, on Thursday my boyfriend (who also worked there, in sales) came home announcing that he, too, had been fired. He called the FTC and was added to their witness list. On Friday, my best friend (who also worked there) and the office manager for the company were fired (because we were all friends…..). I gave them both the number for the attorney for the FTC. We all became cooperating witnesses and retained an attorney to protect our interests. He mostly sat around and played the guitar in the corner while we chatted with the FTC’s attorneys. The FTC kept us in the loop as to what was going on. The following week, they told us they were going to be going in and closing the company down. They told us the day ahead of time. So we took our lawn chairs and parked them in the parking lot and watched the Department of Justice, FTC and Bureau of ATF swoop in, take every stick of everything out of that office (even the pictures off the walls and the plants that were leased from some company!), escorted our former coworkers out after searching their bags, etc., then we saw the president come out. In handcuffs. He was taken away and everyone else was allowed to leave on their own. I didn’t know at the time that they had coordinated this and had taken down the other four “presidents” of the company at the same exact time. It was a massive take down. Coordinated closure of five offices in four different states. These jokers had cost thousands of people millions of dollars in home losses. They made promises they never intended to keep. People lost their homes and I felt guilty about it. So all four of us cooperated with the FTC. Our attorney stayed in touch and told us when they were doing things like calling in the Department of Labor, IRS (we were all 1099 employees), any and every federal agency that might have any interest in anything this company was doing. At one point, we were under police guard for four days when the FTC ran into a dead end tracing some of the capital. All four of us in my little two bedroom duplex for four days. We drank a lot. Police escorts to the market, gas station, you name it. My landlord threatened to evict me. The whole thing ended two years later with them pleading out. The FTC won because of course they did. For my direct boss, the Federal Court’s sentencing document was 84 pages long and he was fined $14.8 million. I read every page of the sentencing document. It is so strict and is lifetime (kinda like probation, I guess). Basically, he has to account for every penny of income, they will check on him and if he has any new big expenditures he’d better be able to provide proof of its providence. If he ever basically utters the word “mortgage” again in his life, he will go to jail (probably not literally, but it was written so strictly that it seemed to me if he was discussing mortgage terms over the back fence with his neighbor he would get in trouble). I checked the court documents about a month ago and they are all still paying off their fines. I think the total in fines for all five presidents was around $85 million. ******************************************* I do want to note here…….this case gave me the basic knowledge. It is only by reading this wonderful blog (love ya, Alison!) and participating in the legaladvice subreddit that I have gleaned as much knowledge as I have. It is only through the contributions of each of you that I know what my rights are and y’all get my curiosity piqued. You drive me to do more research and really learn what can and can’t happen, and what to do when it all goes bad. If I didn’t know about the AAM community (and I’ve been reading for 3-4 years before posting) I just don’t know if I would have had the courage to follow this current one through. I’ve learned so much here. Knowing that I’m not the only person who gives a crap about ethics and compliance has made it easier for me to tackle this. So this is not just me, I am only the figurehead for this fight. You are all the warriors making this current fight possible for me. So I share this one with all of you…..
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:33 pm I promised I would and I always keep my promises! :)
Countess Boochie Flagrante* July 6, 2018 at 11:21 am I used to work in credit card servicing and dealt with a lot of shady companies like that one. This was such a satisfying read, thank you for sharing!
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:34 pm I hope you’ve seen the other threads with the rest of the story about my current issues! BTW, I’ve always loved your screen name!
The Cosmic Avenger* July 6, 2018 at 11:28 am Wow! While I’m sorry for what you went through there and with the President at your last employer, I hope you can nail him and his wife to the wall as thoroughly as this former employer was taken down! I’m rooting for you!
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:35 pm Thanks, Cosmic! My goal is to take the current one down as the former one was taken down. It’s important to have goals in life.
CatCat* July 6, 2018 at 11:36 am Dang. Sorry you went through all this (and are now having to repeat something similar!) Great storytelling though. I hope you’ll update us on the outcome of the current situation if/when you can in the future. I am sure everyone here is rooting for you!!!
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:35 pm I’ll do my best, Catcat! Y’all have been so supportive, I need to find some way to keep you folks in the loop!
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:37 pm Thank you. Visually it was very satisfying. I loved watching him get what he deserved.
Detective Amy Santiago* July 6, 2018 at 11:47 am Sending good vibes for your current fight! I hope you’ll come back and update us once you’re able. Also, all I can say about that other story is…. daaaaaaaaaaamn.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:38 pm Thanks for the vibes! All the good karma/vibes/thoughts are welcome and appreciated! The employer in 08 was a skeezebag and he got what he deserved. Slimy bastige.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:39 pm Yeah, pretty much! :)
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 11:57 am [Cues up marching bands and fireworks] Well done. The scope of the situation was so large, I can guess that your actions probably saved someone I care about or someone in their lives. And for that I thank you. May you receive back 100 fold of what you put out there.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:40 pm Thousands of people, all over the country. If that company affected the family of ANYONE on this blog, please please accept my deepest, heartfelt apologies. Not the whole company was corrupt. Some of us fought the good fight.
periwinkle* July 6, 2018 at 12:08 pm “So we took our lawn chairs and parked them in the parking lot” So. Utterly. Epic.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:41 pm It really was. And it’s not like they were the only tenants in the building. Alllll the other residents of the building were out there, watching.
As Close As Breakfast* July 6, 2018 at 4:42 pm In my head you guys are all wearing big sunglasses and giant sun hats and drinking beers. You have a stocked cooler and maybe some light snacks. And then there is a hardy cheer and much glass clinking when the president was brought out in handcuffs! And just maybe he noticed you guys and muttered something like “And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren’t for those meddling kids!”
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 4:47 pm You. I like you. When I write my book, I think I shall use the setting you have provided. Visually, it is quite appealing!
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 5:54 pm My favorite part of the story. Good for you, and your fired friends, OP. We need people like all of you.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 6:44 pm We really messed with them. When the boss came out, in cuffs, he was just keeping his head down and not looking anywhere at anyone. I’m pretty sure he knew we were there though. :) It’s rare that I get the chance to really step up to the plate. I’m having fun!
rubyrose* July 6, 2018 at 12:29 pm I love the image of the lawn chairs in the parking lot! Did you get pictures?
the gold digger* July 6, 2018 at 2:29 pm That plus “watching president being escorted out in handcuffs” has made my week. Good triumphs over Evil.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:45 pm We clapped and whistled. We had tons of fun with it. My boyfriend wanted to do a picnic in the parking lot. Fried chicken, salads, wine/beer, etc. The feds said NO. So we satisfied ourselves with cigarettes and applause.
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 7:05 pm There is a certain insouciance to cigarettes and applause, as compared to an all-out tailgate party. I like it.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:42 pm Actually, we wanted to take pics but couldn’t because of the federal agents. We satisfied ourselves with applauding and whistling.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:46 pm Gosh it would have to be published anonymously!
Totally Minnie* July 6, 2018 at 6:34 pm Change the names and a handful of details and have it published as fiction. :)
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 6:46 pm Interesting thought. I like the way you think! Do you happen to have a newsletter I can subscribe to? :)
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:47 pm I’m just trying to do the right thing. Sometimes I feel like I’m fighting solo and then I come here and receive tons of awesome support.
Middle School Teacher* July 6, 2018 at 1:00 pm Holy crap. HOLY CRAP. That is amazing. (Also, what are the odds you ended up working for two places with compliance violations? That should be your new job. Get jobs with shady companies, get them shut down. Hero of The Working People should be on your business cards.)
Birdbrain* July 6, 2018 at 2:05 pm That should be your new job. Get jobs with shady companies, get them shut down. Hero of The Working People should be on your business cards. Yeah, this recap (and the previous post about the current situation) made me feel like I was reading a superhero’s origin story. Epic.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:54 pm I’m starting to feel like I am the origin of a superhero! Maybe I have finally found my calling: encouraging the little guy to stand up for themselves when they see something that is wrong. I wish more people had the courage and guts and strength to stand up for themselves. Me? I’m not gonna be pushed around.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:52 pm Surprisingly, here in Florida it seems to be more common than in other states. At the company in 08, I really didn’t know what was going on, just that I was getting too many phone calls from people who were losing their homes and my boss didn’t seem to care. I was completely shocked when the FTC called me. In the present case, I knew what they were doing was wrong (I’m older and wiser now and have the knowledge of this blog and the legaladvice subreddit). I tried for 2 1/2 months to get them in compliance but got push back every single time. I really really like my freedom and am not going down for anyone. Well, maybe my parents but that’s it.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:54 pm Thanks Anne! I really do appreciate the support.
Jersey's mom* July 6, 2018 at 1:15 pm YOU are the warrior who went to battle. We’re just the behind the line troops who give you and others like you the information and emotional support to carry on the good fight. Keep on!
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 3:55 pm Well, I’m fighting these fights for all of us and the support and encouragement from y’all means the world to me (especially since my parents are incredibly disappointed in me right now…..they’re way too old school to understand).
Saskia* July 6, 2018 at 9:31 pm Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome, I hope you are able to shake off your parents’ disappointment. You are heroic and your actions have saved people’s lives. Thank you. Your parents are trying to impose their own values system on you and that’s ludicrous & sad for them. If only more people in the world had the integrity and courage you have shown!
TDestroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 7, 2018 at 8:46 am Thanks Saskia. It’s difficult with my parents. They’re all I’ve got–no boyfriend, and making friends is difficult for me–and I have to sort of mute this topic around them. I’m hoping for a somewhat significant settlement so I can kick them down some $$ and show them that it does pay to do the right thing, more more so than doing the wrong thing.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 4:42 pm You got that right! They went down in a blaze of glory (which was mine).
Alli525* July 6, 2018 at 1:39 pm I usually don’t read the open threads, but I was skimming through today, and your story above compelled me to sift through all the other recent OTs to read your full account. All I have to say is “WHOA” … and also that I hope you post all the details once you settle and your lawyer gives you the ok. It’s such a rollercoaster AND you’re very good at telling the story.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 4:44 pm Thanks Alli! I hope I can get the green light once this is all over to share everything that happens from yesterday forward. Most of the deets have been shared here, albeit scaled down significantly, but the basics are there–also the best parts are there. It was a rollercoaster: up down and all around “These are your duties; no they’re not; yes they are; no they’re not.” I swear Rod Serling was going to show up any time.
Spice for this* July 6, 2018 at 3:08 pm Thanks for the update. WOW! It is a great story. And good for you for caring about ethics and compliance.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 4:50 pm Thanks, Spice. This started out as a fight for my employee rights (keeping my duties) but turned into a compliance battle. The company thought, for me, it was all about my duties. It wasn’t. I used to be a police officer. I take the law very, very seriously and if I tell you you’re breaking the law, I feel it is incumbent on you to ascertain whether or not that is correct. These jokers just didn’t care. They thought they were above the law. They are learning differently.
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 6, 2018 at 6:51 pm Your comment is enough of an upvote for me! :)
Tabby Baltimore* July 6, 2018 at 7:02 pm I realize that you probably won’t be there to see the feds cart all the business’ property out the door, followed by the president and his wife, but if I were observing this play out, I know I would personally find it very hard, *right* before the federal officer puts the president into the car, NOT to say “Oh, by the way, you know that hole in the sand you put your head in? The feds took that, too.” Your mission is clear, you cause is just. Good luck!
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 7, 2018 at 9:07 am Oh that would be so Satisfying! I’m pretty sure, if he wasn’t handcuffed, he would try to hit me. He wanted to the other day but found some self control. Oh how I would love to do this. (Kinda like the movie Cadillac Man, at the end when Robin Williams finally tells Tom Robbins he didn’t sleep with his wife. “whaaaaaat!!?!?!” Thanks for the support. I’m truly very grateful.
Super stressed* July 6, 2018 at 11:07 am I’m starting a new job in DC soon, and will be commuting via metro most of the time. I know a lot of people wear sneakers during their commute and change into more office appropriate shoes once they get in the office. I don’t actually know how the logistics of this work, though…Do people keep designated office shoes at their desk, or carry them in their bags? Do you change in the lobby, or in a bathroom, or at your desk? Should I NOT plan on wearing sneakers on my first day to avoid any awkwardness about the above?
Bumblebee* July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am I have a privateish cubicle and change at my desk. If you opt not to do the sneakers thing, I do recommend flats for the metro though; navigating the sometimes narrow platforms and sometimes very tall escalators (depending on your lines/stops) in the middle of rush hour traffic is crazy stressful if you are new to the area and unfamiliar with your route. Adding heels on top of that would be terrible.
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 11:59 am I still keep shoes in a desk drawer even though i drive to work now. I used to Metro in DC and couldn’t bring myself to wear tennis shoes, but I did wear cute and very walkable flats in and then changed at my desk in the morning. If you don’t have a designated desk or a locker where you can secure them, you can also carry an extra bag with your shoes. That’s what a lot of those people on the Metro are doing… laptop in one bag, wallet and shoes in another!
Atlantic Toast Conference* July 6, 2018 at 11:18 am Every woman I know in DC has a stash of office shoes under her desk or in a drawer :) I always changed at my desk.
Namast'ay in Bed* July 6, 2018 at 11:23 am I commute into the office in sneakers, and then I change into my work shoes at my desk. I tend to take my work shoes home with me every day (I commute with a backpack), but I’ve seen people in my office with PILES of shoes under their desks that they leave there full time. On my first day, before I knew where my desk was going to be or when they’d actually take me to it, I changed into my work shoes in the lobby. Good luck with the new job!
BlueWolf* July 6, 2018 at 11:23 am I really only wear different shoes on my commute if it’s winter and I’m wearing boots. In that case, I’ll bring my work shoes and change at my desk. Mostly I just prefer to buy professional shoes that are comfortable enough for commuting (I really can’t wear heels at all). If you prefer to wear heels though then more power to you. Depending on the size of the office, I would say wear more comfortable shoes the first day because they may have you walking around touring the office and you may not even go to your desk the first day.
Leena Wants Cake* July 6, 2018 at 11:25 am Your shoe changing and storage situation is going to depend on your office culture and logistical set-up. A few offices are stuffy enough that you’ll want to carry the shoes with you and change outside (on a park-bench or similar) before walking in. In most places I’m familiar with, folks change discreetly at their desks (keeping the extra shoes in a desk drawer). Currently my office is so casual that no one cares and I just wear my sneakers all day unless there is a special meeting. I would definitely recommend wearing nice shoes in on your first day (but carrying the sneakers with you) and watching for clues from your fellow employees.
Zeitbombe* July 6, 2018 at 11:30 am On your first day, bring the work shoes in a bag and change in the lobby before you go in. Once you have a spot, keep a stash of work shoes at your desk. I walk or Metro into work and I have pants, shirts and shoes in drawers and under my desk for days I sweat through my clothes on the walk in :)
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 12:01 pm I got caught in a torrential downpour at lunch one day and I was very thankful for my full change of clothing stash in the office!!
Damn it, Hardison!* July 6, 2018 at 11:34 am I change shoes at my desk when I arrive, and see others do the same. I generally bring my shoes for the day, but I do leave them as well (in a desk drawer). For your first day, where you might be in orientation all day or otherwise not really at your desk, I’d wear my work shoes to work instead of sneakers if you can. After the first day you should have a better idea what would be the easiest thing for you to do.
Ali G* July 6, 2018 at 11:36 am When I metroed I had “commuting shoes” and “office shoes.” The office shoes lived at work in a drawer. My commuting shoes were ballet flats, rain boots, snow boots and sometimes flip flops. For your first day I would wear something you can easily put in your bag for your commute and change your shoes quickly in the lobby or bathroom before you head to your office. You really don’t want to be commuting in heels.
CatCat* July 6, 2018 at 11:41 am I keep a couple pairs of heels stashed in my desk drawer at work and just change them at my desk when I get to work. If I have to work out of the office (and still take public transit), I wear black slacks, black trouser socks, and comfortable black loafers. Would that be an option your first day so you have comfortable shoes that are nicer than sneakers until you get the lay of the land?
Happy Friday* July 6, 2018 at 11:53 am I also work in DC and commute in sneakers. I change at my desk where I have a large drawer dedicated to work shoes. I keep each pair in a cheap shoe bag so they don’t get scuffed in the drawer. I just change at my desk. I work in a fairly formal office, and everyone changes their shoes at their desk. Even if your commute doesn’t involve a ton of walking, your shoes will take a beating so it’s worth having dedicated commuting shoes.
Falling Diphthong* July 6, 2018 at 11:56 am I would avoid sneakers on the first day since you can’t just walk to your new desk, change shoes, and then “start the day.” You might not even meet your new desk until midday if they start with HR and general orientation. Once you have obtained a desk, it’s normal to change there–either to the pair of shoes you keep in your bottom drawer, or to the pair you brought in your large bag, depending on your number of pairs of work shoes and fashion sense. (I think I just left a pair of flats in my bottom drawer.)
AvonLady Barksdale* July 6, 2018 at 12:10 pm I usually brought shoes in a tote bag and kept them in my office; after a while, you don’t need the space in your tote for the shoes. This was in NYC. One caveat, though: I once had a Monday morning presentation in Long Island, and as I was getting dressed, I realized that the shoes I wanted to wear were… in my office. From that point on, I kept a couple of pairs behind in my apartment, though I did switch out from time to time. I had a lot of shoes when I lived in New York.
epi* July 6, 2018 at 1:13 pm I do this sometimes. I keep a pair or two of shoes that go with almost anything (but that I don’t usually want to wear on the weekend) at my desk. Anything else, I bring with me that day. It’s a good idea to do this with any bulky or awkward shoes– like high heels or boots– that would be annoying to carry every day. If you plan to wear other shoes a certain day, just decide based on comfort/bulkiness/weather if you want to wear them for your commute or not. IME it’s generally fine to change shoes at your desk. Everyone will have to do it on rainy days and in the winter, so it won’t be some taboo grooming activity. I wouldn’t wear sneakers the first day. Wear your nicest flats or something. You never know what orientation type things could start immediately. Plus a lot of your shoe decisions will come down to the specifics of your commute: how long will you usually stand and wait? will you usually get a seat or have to stand on the train? You can’t know that yet so it’s better to be ready for anything.
Former Retail Manager* July 6, 2018 at 1:19 pm Once you get your desk, I’d keep a couple pairs in your desk and just wear sneakers or flats in every day. I drive, but I choose to drive in flip flops so as not to mess up my heels and I keep a couple pairs in my desk. If your new jobs dress code doesn’t require heels and you don’t feel they’re needed, I might try to wear dressy ankle pants and nice flats on the first day. Besides your commute, I’m sure there will be plenty of walking as they give you a tour/orientation, meet different people, get your cubicle set up, etc.
Alli525* July 6, 2018 at 1:42 pm I work in NYC… I usually wear Toms or boat shoes or sandals on the commute (I still cringe at the many 80s movies with women in nylons and white sneakers… not a good look) and change once I get in. When I worked in fashion I had the majority of my shoe collection at my desk, but now that I’ve left that industry, I just keep one or two pairs, and my purse/tote is large enough to accommodate a pair if I want something different. My office now, though, is casual enough that I usually just stay in the Toms or sandals.
Triplestep* July 7, 2018 at 1:26 pm The 1980 NYC Transit Strike gave birth to the “white tennis shoe + nylon” look, and it became the uniform for the rest of the 80s. (I was in high school at the time, and only had 15 blocks to walk to school, but my mother adopted this look.) It’s a look that is associated with the period just like big hair and shoulder pads, but today’s trend of changing shoes at work can be traced directly back this strike. It changed commuting habits for many people (men and women) and normalized changing shoes at work.
Argh!* July 6, 2018 at 2:01 pm I used to live in DC and kept a few pairs of shoes in the office. One lesson I learned the hard way: Don’t keep near-identical pumps that are 1/2-inch different in heel height. I wore one from each pair one day! Duh!
Marley* July 6, 2018 at 2:52 pm I don’t buy shoes to wear to work that I wouldn’t feel comfortable walking a mile in, basically. I don’t own heels. I realize some offices are so dressy that wouldn’t work, but this has worked for me at three different downtown DC non-profits.
Violet* July 6, 2018 at 7:54 pm Most people I knew who did this in New York kept the pair in their bag and changed at their desks. I do know a few people who kept one or two pairs at their desk.
ManderGimlet* July 6, 2018 at 8:22 pm I do this and do both: carry shoes with me and I have a few pair of slip ons I keep at my desk in case I wear uncomfortable heels or something like that. I just change at my desk, I work in a cubicle farm setting and most people’s cubes are their own little homes away from home. No one has ever said anything or made any indication that they cared.
Amnada R.* July 6, 2018 at 11:08 am Removed. Please stop posting fake scenarios here and wasting people’s time. (This is from someone who has been doing this regularly.)
Mediamaven* July 6, 2018 at 11:19 am Agreed with this. I hope this poor man gets some sort of counseling to help relieve him of feeling this responsibility but it seems that this is what he needs for right now. This is just a very sad story.
Martine* July 6, 2018 at 11:27 am The employees paid by the hour and can only do work at their desks. There are plenty of jobs (like a call center or customer support) where leaving your desk means that the work falls to others because you aren’t there to do your share. The company and boss are not wrong for wanting the employees to work if they are on the clock and being paid. They aren’t penalized for using the bathroom and they get a lunch break so it’s not unreasonable to expect them to work the rest of the time. I can get where the OP is coming from. I would be upset if I was having to do extra work because my coworker left his desk when we aren’t supposed to do so.
Wondering* July 6, 2018 at 11:38 am +1. I was thinking something along the line of a call centre when I read OP’s post.
Detective Amy Santiago* July 6, 2018 at 11:53 am A very high percentage of couples who lose children under any circumstance end up divorcing so I’m not sure why you would side eye this coworker. It’s also perfectly reasonable that she would be charged with/convicted of negligence. Accidents are never intentional. That is why they are called accidents.
Neuro Nerd* July 6, 2018 at 12:01 pm There are several dozen similar deaths every year in the USA, and there is very little consistency about how they are handled from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm Yes, grief has some profound effects including divorce and life threatening health issues. There is a connection to some people’s early demise because of a loss of loved ones. I am not talking about just suicide, some people end up with serious heart problems and other issues. Additionally, one person’s passing can cause family members to end relationships with each other. In my own family, 4 parents each lost an adult child. With in two years of the adult child’s passing the 4 parents were dead. This is how powerful grief is. Likewise divorce is not unusual at all. I would not be surprised to find the forgetful parent telling the other parent, “I am not good enough for you. You need to go find someone who is.” So this is a possibility also.
Falling Diphthong* July 6, 2018 at 12:12 pm Yeah, losing a child is one of the greatest predictors of divorce. And that’s for couples where neither had any fault in the death.
Foreign Octopus* July 6, 2018 at 11:53 am Hey-up. Let’s leave this here, I think. We don’t know the ins and outs of that’s relationship. From the outside, it’s easy to judge but we have absolutely no idea of the circumstances surrounding the tragedy.
Detective Amy Santiago* July 6, 2018 at 11:54 am +1 And don’t ever EVER make any whiff of a comment denigrating this man’s habit to anyone you work with or you run the risk of becoming the office pariah.
Wannabe Disney Princess* July 6, 2018 at 11:57 am I thought the same thing regarding accommodation. This isn’t some wacky hobby he’s shoehorning into his work day. This is a necessity so he can cope with his work day.
Lisa* July 6, 2018 at 11:58 am Yes. Life isn’t fair. It isn’t fair that he gets to leave for 10 minutes and it’s not fair that his child died. One of those is more significant than the other. You will look petty and immature if you ask your boss to step in, especially as he is not concerned about it, for good reason. Sorry to be harsh, but this is something to be empathetic about, not to complain about.
pleaset* July 6, 2018 at 12:04 pm THIS. I hope the person the OP is talking about is getting or got some kind of counseling or therapy.
Countess Boochie Flagrante* July 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm Very well said! If your boss is so strict about desk times that 10-15 minutes, once a day, is that noticeable… your coworker isn’t the problem, your boss is.
Marie B.* July 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm It’s not really fair to put this on the boss. In some fields, like dispatching or working in a call center, being at your desk all the time is necessary. It sounds like they are allowed to take washroom breaks without getting in trouble and they get a 30 minute lunch break too so they do get to eat and leave their desks. Automatically assuming the boss is a tyrant is wrong because we don’t know what kind field the OP works in.
pleaset* July 6, 2018 at 12:08 pm It’s not at all odd to divorce someone in those circumstances – the person killed a child. Even with the best of intentions, it’s hard to put that aside enough to want to live with that person. And without knowing the circumstances, while I can’t say whether or not prosecution was appropriate, I certainly feel that in some cases it is. A child died. People have to take serious responsibility for that, and that includes the law looking into it. Even if it was not intentional, it could well have been negligent.
Jadelyn* July 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm It being an accident doesn’t automatically relieve the anger, grief, blame, etc. that are all very natural things for someone who has suffered the awful tragedy of losing a child that, accidentally or not, was caused by another person. In that circumstance, would you really try to tell them they’re expected to just somehow deal with those feelings in order to stay in the relationship? Why? It’s probably the kinder thing to leave than to stay and have that resentment simmering under everything for years. Human emotions are messy, messy things and they don’t always include things like forgiveness and reconciliation when you’re dealing with this kind of a situation. Why judge someone for being human and having emotions? Now the courts, on the other hand, that one I’ll join you in side-eyeing. But then, our legal system is an overzealous mess in all the wrong situations and then doesn’t give a crap when they should, so…what else can we expect? The DA probably needed to boost their numbers for the year or something. (Sorry, I am super biased on this, having had someone close to me get swept up in a “the DA is making an example of this one” situation on an event they were only very peripherally involved with, which ruined their life for years over something that we were told by various investigators wouldn’t even be prosecution-worthy normally. So I would not be at all surprised to hear that something similar was at play on this.)
Jadelyn* July 6, 2018 at 12:11 pm That’s what I was thinking. If it’s an OCD or anxiety or PTSD thing because of the mental health effects of the tragedy, it might actually be a formal accommodation that he is allowed to take a few minutes and go do that so that he is able to be productive the rest of the day.
Ask a Manager* Post authorJuly 6, 2018 at 12:45 pm Also, apologies for removing the replies people took the time to write. My assumption is that leaving them would give this person whatever it is that they’re seeking with this behavior.
Flinty* July 6, 2018 at 11:09 am The kosher thing brought up something else I’ve run into: our office of ~20 has periodic trainings where lunch is provided. The last couple times, it’s been sandwiches where there’s a huge variety of tasty-looking meats, and the vegetarian option has been a “wrap” that consists solely of tortilla, lettuce, and cucumber, and no condiments provided besides mustard. It is neither tasty nor filling. There are 3-4 of us who are vegetarian and we are not thrilled by this, but we don’t want to be the special snowflake vegetarians who complain about the food. Is it worth saying anything/presenting some other places we could get lunch, or should I just make sure to have extra food handy on those days?
BlueWolf* July 6, 2018 at 11:27 am I would say since there are 3-4 of you, you should bring it up as a group and just ask if it’s possible to have a different vegetarian option. If the person ordering is not vegetarian, they may not be as tuned-in to what you would like to eat.
Falling Diphthong* July 6, 2018 at 12:18 pm Yeah, I would assume good intent from the person ordering the food, who doesn’t realize that the only vegetarian option is ridiculous. (Seriously, catering place, it is not this hard to make an acceptable vegetarian sandwich.)
Namast'ay in Bed* July 6, 2018 at 11:28 am I absolutely think it’s worth saying something! Especially since it’s 3-4 people in a 20 person office, that’s a big enough percentage to warrant speaking up.
AnnStanSam* July 6, 2018 at 11:32 am Do you have a good relationship with the person ordering the food? If so, I’d be comfortable saying something like “At the last couple of trainings, Cathy and I have noticed that the vegetarian wraps are really just lettuce wrapped in a tortilla. We appreciate that there’s a vegetarian option, but this really isn’t enough food for a full-day event. Would it be possible to get something more filling next time?”
Not Today Satan* July 6, 2018 at 11:37 am OMG, yes. The Bird Food Wrap from Hell. It’s at every frigin work function. I finally complained and got my employer to include some capreses as well.
Falling Diphthong* July 6, 2018 at 12:20 pm I still recall going to a Mexican place and ordering the veggie taco, which turned out to be cold tortillas with raw sliced mushrooms and lettuce. A cuisine built on corns, beans, and squash, and that was all this restaurant could think of when they heard they needed something vegetarian on the menu.
Anonymosity* July 6, 2018 at 1:13 pm A lot of refried beans have lard in them so they’re not suitable for vegetarians. This is probably why, though it’s not hard to figure out how to manage a decent veggie entree. :P
Bea* July 6, 2018 at 2:38 pm Taco Bell is a vegetarians fast food paradise, I can’t believe a real restaurant can’t pull it off! I’m in the land of veggie and vegan chooses, I’m grateful AF and I’m not either one. I just hate limited choices when both are such popular dietary setups.
TL -* July 7, 2018 at 1:55 am I grew up where Tex-Mex was developed and it’s not really a vegetarian-friendly cuisine (if you care about eating lard) and definitely not a vegan friendly cuisine. (Though it is distinct from Mexican cuisine). I agree groups should find places with good vegetarian options if they’re including vegetarians, but it’s not on the owners of a restaurant to provide good vegetarian options, especially if they’re working in a cuisine that doesn’t have a historical concept of vegetarianism.
Bumblebee* July 6, 2018 at 11:41 am If you know where the food is being ordered from, could you do a quick check to see if there are other vegetarian options, and suggest a more filling one instead? I used to be the person who did the ordering for years, and disagree with the other commenter that this needs to be A Thing by approaching the person as a group, unless the first quick request does not go well.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm Oh my god, just speak up about it! I don’t even think it matter that there’s a group of you or whether or not you have a good relationship with the person who orders the food. This is, like, the mildest request ever and the person who orders the food will probably laugh about how terrible the wrap is.
Jadelyn* July 6, 2018 at 12:14 pm I have to ask – I’m vehemently not vegetarian and have no idea what kind of veggie-based alternatives to sandwich filling there would be, so I’m curious. What would a *good* vegetarian option for a sandwich-type lunch look like?
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 12:18 pm In my experience, either cheese or some kind of bean-based spread or patty, depending on whether or not they’re trying to cover the vegan base in the same sandwich.
Guacamole Bob* July 6, 2018 at 12:35 pm Yeah, mostly cheese (caprese sandwiches tend to be among the better options), but I’ve also seen corporate lunch style catering with hummus, falafel, or black bean/tex-mex style wraps. Avocado or guacamole is another common way to make a veggie sandwich more filling. Sweet potatoes show up sometimes, too, and are more filling than lettuce and tomato. Portobello mushrooms are popular with caterers, though I don’t tend to care for them – I’ve eaten a lot of mediocre wraps with things portobellos and tomatoes, roasted red peppers, roasted artichokes, etc. (I like the ingredients on their own, but soggy tortillas and bad vinaigrette are de rigeur for these things.) They may not be the most filling thing ever, but it’s much better than what OP describes. I’d honestly prefer a peanut butter and jelly sandwich to a lot of the bad veggie wraps out there, but I get why that’s not usually an option. Or you could skip the sandwiches and wraps and get something like a salad based around black beans, lentils, wild rice, quinoa, etc.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 12:40 pm I’ve never understood the mushroom thing. They don’t provide much by way or calories or protein, which is the thing you’re trying to replace when you leave out the meat.
AnnStanSam* July 6, 2018 at 12:43 pm Someone, somewhere read that mushrooms are “umami” and now we must have them as the only vegetarian option for all time.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 12:55 pm Here I was just assuming it was because portabellas are vaguely burger shaped, so they don’t have to revise anything. Just unplug “hamburger” and plug in “giant mushroom”.
Guacamole Bob* July 6, 2018 at 1:03 pm A couple of times I’ve had particular types of mushrooms breaded and fried that were absolutely delicious and also the closest thing to chicken I’ve eaten in years. But I agree with you about the ubiquity of the roasted/grilled portabella in place of a burger. A decent veggie burger is not that hard to make, people!
Falling Diphthong* July 6, 2018 at 1:12 pm They’re like tofu–lovely in a dish that plays to their strengths, but a slab where you expect a hamburger is just going to be disappointing.
Washi* July 6, 2018 at 1:14 pm Ugh yes, I’m not super picky, but I also do not appreciate the unseasoned mushroom slabs that sometimes appear on vegetarian food.
Jadelyn* July 6, 2018 at 1:16 pm I think you’re right. Roughly a similar size/shape, which means you can just swap one out for the other without disrupting anything else. Even though that means you’ve just significantly altered the actual nutrient balance of the meal. That’s not going to be a problem, is it? /sarcasm
Falling Diphthong* July 6, 2018 at 12:26 pm Hummus is no longer exotic, and it and its bean paste cousins make tasty vegan sandwiches. (I have yellow lentil hummus with Indian seasoning in my fridge right now, from my local grocery store.) Cheese with tomato and cucumber for the vegetarians who eat dairy, and either cheese or hummus plus roast vegetables (peppers, onions, eggplant) if you want to go a little fancier.
AnnStanSam* July 6, 2018 at 12:41 pm As a vegetarian, I appreciate basically anything with protein. Cheese, tofu, beans and their derivatives (hummus, etc.). My personal favorite is roasted vegetables with goat cheese.
Falling Diphthong* July 6, 2018 at 1:16 pm This was a telling challenge on Top Chef once–it was a vegan challenge, judged by a longtime vegan. (I want to say Natalie Portman?) And the winner was the bacon-tattooed chef who gave up meat for Lent every year, and so made sure to produce something filling with some protein.
Guacamole Bob* July 6, 2018 at 1:43 pm I’ve eaten enough bad catered lunches that I’m willing to go for a pick-two of protein, fat, and fiber. Just make sure there are enough macronutrients that I don’t have to eat cookies for lunch and crash from the sugar an hour into the afternoon session. Toss in some olives? Great! Actually hearty whole grain bread? Excellent. Artichokes? At least there’s some fiber there so I will feel like I’ve eaten real food. A white flour tortilla with lettuce, tomato, carrots, cucumber, and bean sprouts? Only counts as a meal if you’re a rabbit. But agreed, protein is best.
Applesauced* July 6, 2018 at 1:07 pm Cheese and beans are good building blocks for vegetarian sandwiches. My husband is vegetarian/vegan-curious and recently I’ve been making sandwiches with olive tapanade, roasted red peppers, artichoke hearts, greens, and some “chickpea-of-the-sea” salad (faux tune salad – it’s chickpeas and mayo) on a roll. It’s super yummy!
Corky's Wife Bonnie* July 6, 2018 at 1:15 pm The place we get our sandwiches from has a great veggie wrap. I’m a meat eater and still love it. It has spinach, tomato, cucumber, shredded carrots, grilled squash, hot sauce, blue cheese, etc. I’m sure if people were vegan they would use hummus instead of cheese. It’s yummy!!
Ann Perkins* July 6, 2018 at 2:13 pm Another option I haven’t seen mentioned yet would be an egg salad sandwich.
Miss Pantalones en Fuego* July 6, 2018 at 3:23 pm I used to be vegetarian, and I’d make sandwiches out of things like hummous, sprouts, other kinds of beans (I used to make a black bean hummous-like spread, for instance), grilled or baked tofu, cheese, olives, marinated or pickled vegetables like artichokes or sun-dried tomatoes, avocado, pesto, falafel, cold potatoes/sweet potatoes, chutney, nut butters, various kinds of salad leaves, and sometimes vegetarian fake meat products.
Guacamole Bob* July 6, 2018 at 12:20 pm I’d definitely say something. For one-off events I wouldn’t bother, but it sounds like this is something that happens regularly. I’d second the suggestion to offer to look at the menu and help choose something more suitable, or offering other options if you know of other restaurants that do a similar level of catering nearby. Do they at least get a dessert tray so you can get enough calories to continue to function? I think I’d be unable to pay attention to work after eating such a skimpy lunch.
Ask a Manager* Post authorJuly 6, 2018 at 12:47 pm Frame it as being about sufficient nutrition — as in, “we need vegetarian lunch options that will provide sufficient nutrition, which lettuce and tomato on their own don’t do.” And then suggest some options that you’d like, since whoever is doing the ordering clearly needs some guidance.
Flinty* July 6, 2018 at 1:12 pm Thank you everyone! I work for a nonprofit that is not destitute but still tends towards the “make do without” shoestring budget attitude, so I was hesitant to speak up about something potentially seen as frivolous. Thank you for the validation that tortilla and lettuce is not lunch!
Jadelyn* July 6, 2018 at 1:18 pm If it’s “frivolous” to get the vegetarians something other than rabbit food for lunch, it’s frivolous to get the meat-eaters lunch too. Since they obviously are on board with providing lunch in general, it’s not at all frivolous to expect that they would feed you *adequately* even with dietary restrictions.
Observer* July 6, 2018 at 1:58 pm I think that if you can provide some decent options to the person who is doing the ordering, that would be fine. Especially if it’s not too expensive, and a place that’s reasonably easy to deal with.
Jules the 3rd* July 6, 2018 at 2:15 pm um, yeah, bring it up. How hard is it to add edamame and corn, or sweet potatoes, or hummus and sprouts, or grill some mushrooms? I could see not wanting to do plain avocado slices, but vegan guac is an easily available thing!
Jennifer Thneed* July 6, 2018 at 2:24 pm So, this is really funny. There are SO many different styles of guacamole (because different regions of Mexico) and I guess some of them are not vegan? (Certainly not any that have mayo in them.) Anyway, guacamole usually is vegan. My personal fave recipe involves 4 ingrediants: avo, garlic, salt, lemon juice. Oh, and I’ve got ripe avos downstairs. Mmmm, guac with lunch for me.
Miss Pantalones en Fuego* July 6, 2018 at 3:16 pm Guacamole with mayo in it? I have never heard of this. I rarely make guacamole these days, because it’s hard to get good avocados in England. But I used to use some variation on avocado with lime juice, dried chiles, salt, garlic, onion, sometimes a splash of tequila, usually cooking the garlic and onion first (they give me indigestion raw).
TL -* July 7, 2018 at 2:02 am Sour cream is generally what’s put in dairy-based guac, not mayo. It is creamy and delicious and now I want some :)
Jennifer Thneed* July 6, 2018 at 2:22 pm Sounds to me like you’re saying “vegetarian” and someone is hearing “vegan”. Tell them you want cheese! Tell them you want mayo! (They’re not giving you mayo because it usually has eggs.)
Guacamole Bob* July 6, 2018 at 2:35 pm But what OP describes wouldn’t be acceptable food for a vegan, either!
Observer* July 6, 2018 at 5:59 pm I’m with Guacamole Bob. It’s not as easy to feed a vegan, but you REALLY don’t have to go this far. Look at all of the suggestions in the thread for tons of ideas – most of which are not exotic or expensive.
Thlayli* July 6, 2018 at 6:48 pm Ugh. I’m not a vegetarian but u absolutely detest that “just makenthe meat wrap but leave out the meat” attitude to vegetarian options. How hard is it to google vegetarian menus ffs. Definitely say something. “Man cannot live on bread alone… you need some protein!”
Embarrassed and Ashamed* July 6, 2018 at 11:10 am I’m worried that I’ve trashed my reputation with my manager. I got a new manager late last year. This was a welcome addition as this place is pretty toxic and my previous manager as well as some colleagues are awful at their jobs. At first my manager seemed on top of things and ready to start implementing improvements. I brought up some issues that needed to be addressed (a couple of coworkers are not doing their jobs well and it was significantly affecting my job not to mention how it was impacting things overall). While I initially mentioned these things professionally, they weren’t addressed or fixed and when I had to follow up about ongoing problems I didn’t always maintain a professional demeanor. Nothing egregious but definitely not the AAM way. I’m horribly embarrassed and ashamed about this. I know better but stress and frustration got the better of me. I’m worried this killed my reputation with my manager. He hasn’t said anything (he’s not a clear or direct communicator) but our working relationship feels like it has declined. I’ve apologized for being unprofessional and have improved how I talk about these issues when he proactively checks up on them but I’m worried the damage is done. Is there anything else I should do? Just continue on in a professional manner?
Girl from the North Country* July 6, 2018 at 11:18 am I would say yes, just continue on in a very professional manner (not only with him, but everyone), and always be on top of your work. You already apologized, and it’s good that you’re trying to be better going forward. That’s really all you can do, and hopefully in time he will come to see it as a one-off lapse in judgment from an otherwise stellar employee.
CAA* July 6, 2018 at 11:26 am You’ve already apologized, so let it go and behave in a professional way from now on and let the relationship with your manager evolve and improve in its own time. Continuing to bring it up or apologize again so he has to keep reassuring you about it just makes you seem like a high maintenance employee.
LGC* July 6, 2018 at 12:29 pm I mean, think about it like this: you’re still there so you’re not THAT bad off with him. More to the point, you’ve done all you can do. NO ONE always acts in an AAM-approved way, not even Alison. (Definitely not me, I’ll tell you that much.) If your boss is judging you still, that’s something he needs to sort out. Just keep on doing what you’ve been doing.
Ask a Manager* Post authorJuly 6, 2018 at 11:10 am This is my periodic reminder: Do you have a problem that you’d like to talk to me about on the phone, to work through in real time? The catch — you’d be on an episode of the AAM podcast. If you’re up for it, send a description of your problem to me at podcast@askamanager.org.
Foreign Octopus* July 6, 2018 at 1:00 pm How are you enjoying the podcasts, Alison? Are you finding them fun and a nice break from answering letters in the traditional manner? I know I enjoy the podcasts once a week. I stick it on when I’m cooking dinner :)
Ask a Manager* Post authorJuly 6, 2018 at 1:15 pm I’m really liking them! The more I do, the more comfortable I am with the format, and I think/hope it’s making for better shows. I really, really like that the format allows me to get feedback on the advice in real time so that I can adjust it to better target what will work for the person and their situation. I recorded one last night where the person said something like, “yeah, that advice would work in most situations but it won’t in this one because ____” and I was able to adjust it to work for her, even though what we ended up on wasn’t what I would have figured was the optimal solution before we hashed it out. So that part of it is really cool! And hopefully for listeners, it’s interesting to listen to that process.
Foreign Octopus* July 6, 2018 at 1:28 pm I love listening to the process for the exact reason you stated! I remember the one with the woman who wanted to scale back on the amount of time she was spending with a colleague who expected her to have lunch with him every day. It was really interesting to listen to you speak to her and hear what she’s already implemented.
Anonymosity* July 6, 2018 at 1:15 pm Is it bad that I wish I had a work problem, just so I could talk to Alison on the phone? :)
Jadelyn* July 6, 2018 at 1:19 pm I’m with you – I started flipping through my mental rolodex of Work Problems to see if anything was bad enough to warrant volunteering for this, lol.
BRR* July 6, 2018 at 1:39 pm Not at all! I would consider it an honor for Alison to answer my question.
Spay-C* July 6, 2018 at 11:10 am For those who have worked under someone who was very high up in a company (President, Vice President, CEO, whatever): Was the job any different than a normal job? I applied for a job recently that I thought sounded like a great fit for me until I did a phone screening and found out the position works under the vice president. If they had mentioned that in the job ad, I wouldn’t have applied. Working under the vice president seems like a… big job? Like, only someone who’s super awesome and talented and good looking and important themselves could do it. I’m not exactly polished (the dressiest stuff I have is business casual, I wear ponytails to keep my hair in check, and I don’t wear makeup despite lacking a nice face). I don’t have an impressive job history or any special talents or skills. I assume the job would have more pressure and stress and much higher expectations. The job seems way beyond something I could handle now just because of the vice president thing. Don’t know if I’m making a mountain out of a mole hill or what.
Ladyb* July 6, 2018 at 11:24 am With respect, I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill. If you meet the requirements then go for it. The fact that it would be reporting to a ‘high up’ shouldn’t stop you. I’m C-suite and I’d be horrified to learn that people are being put off applying because of my job title/rank. What’s important to me is that you can do the job. That said, I can see that there are some companies where the corporate environment might skew towards more formal/polished. I’m thinking legal firms and similar, but you’d be able to screen those out if needed.
I'm Not Phyllis* July 6, 2018 at 11:37 am Yes and no. I work for a CEO directly, and mostly it’s just a regular job like anyone else has. The only thing that is a little trickier is that its a bit higher in terms of visibility – you may interact with VIPs more and have to worry about your boss’s reputation a bit more (although I guess that’s something people should always be concerned with?). But in terms of the job itself – like every job it has a specific set of priorities. At least this has been my experience.
Spay-C* July 6, 2018 at 4:33 pm Even though people I work with seem to think I’m very friendly and kind and helpful, I am socially awkward and socially anxious. I can see myself saying something stupid in front of VIPs. I’ve never thought about it before, but guess I very much prefer being invisible.
whistle* July 6, 2018 at 11:40 am I think you can ask about dress code expectations, etc., in an interview. If they are expecting a more formal look, and that’s not something you’re interested in, you can bow out at that point. Otherwise, the rest of your concerns sound a bit like imposter syndrome. If they decide to hire you, they are saying that you are “super awesome and talented”! :) (I report directly to the CEO, and your description of your appearance and dress pretty much exactly matches mine.)
Spay-C* July 6, 2018 at 4:38 pm Asking about dress code if I actually get to the interview stage is a good idea. (Or maybe I wouldn’t need to–if I wear business casual with a ponytail and no makeup to the interview, presumably they would take that into account when considering if I’d be a good fit?)
Ali G* July 6, 2018 at 11:45 am Is it a small or big company? You just made me realize that every job I’ve ever had I’ve reported directly to the CEO or a VP. I’ve also worked at exclusively “small” organizations. It can be stressful because often you are supporting someone very busy – but it can be fascinating. I really enjoyed the learning about things like how to run a company, budgeting, and other stuff that my education didn’t really cover. So, if you have the qualifications, there is nothing wrong with learning more about it and seeing if you could be a good fit.
Everdene* July 6, 2018 at 12:00 pm This may just be down to reporting lines. My hierarchy is only 4 people tall, my grandboss is the Chief Exec. Yet, one of my peers has a hierarchy of 6 or 7 people. The great thing about reporting to a Director is that I am learning so much and have access to people much further in their career. If I had know initially I would have been a bit daunted but this is great for me. What do you have to lose? (Also while I can brush up will when needed today I’m in flip flops, no makeup and a ponytail.)
Elle* July 6, 2018 at 12:41 pm Agree with everybody else: If you can fulfill the requirements, go for it! What’s the worst they can say? (hint: “We have filled the position with someone else”.)
zora* July 6, 2018 at 12:49 pm I agree with a lot of the above comments, and I wanted to add: all executives are different! Some like to do a lot of things for themselves, so you end up having a pretty standard Admin Assistant job. Others like to delegate more (or have terrible tech/admin skills) and so you are more of a high-level Executive Assistant and have to do a lot more high-level work. I wouldn’t write this off yet, I’d go to the interview and find out more! I am an executive assistant, and my boss is pretty high up in the company now, but the high level organizational stuff, she does herself. I do a lot of scheduling/managing her calendar, booking travel, doing small admin tasks for her. But I’m not really involved in budgets or structural decisions, like, ever. And I definitely try to dress nicer if we have clients coming by, but we are a pretty casual office, so nice pants/flowy top and cardigan are perfectly acceptable. And I don’t wear makeup at work anymore. She doesn’t care what I look like, just that I help her be productive. On a big picture level, I feel like you are really selling yourself short! Most of the people supporting executives, or even executives themselves, are just normal people, too! They just happened to have learned about the things involved in running a business. Some of them aren’t even good at their jobs! If they are interested in you, there’s no reason to take yourself out of the running without even getting more information about the job.
Spay-C* July 6, 2018 at 4:51 pm I steer clear of admin assistant type jobs because I’d be horrible at those. This job was actually for something else that I wouldn’t have expected to report to a VP (I assumed the role was in a team of people with the same and complementary roles). I’ve always been a low level worker and never interacted with anyone “high up” aside from asking for approval on things over certain dollar amounts, so I guess I have a very skewed view of what executives and the people supporting them are like (I never would have described them as “normal people,” haha :P). I’m feel like I’m an outcast in big businesses even though that’s the only kind of place I’ve been able to get jobs.
Chaordic One* July 6, 2018 at 2:03 pm It’s one of those things that is going to vary depending on who you are working for and the office culture. When I worked as a high-level executive assistant, the big thing that seemed difficult to me was that I was privy to a lot of confidential information and I really would have liked to have gossiped about it with some of my coworkers. (But I didn’t.) Also, I had to come in early and stay late a bit more often than in my previous job. I was being paid quite a bit more, though, so it didn’t bother me. I also, on occasion had to do some menial things like get coffee for my boss and visiting corporate guests, or take the company car to be washed and gassed-up. Again, it didn’t bother me. Getting coffee seemed more like a matter of being hospitable to our guests than doing a menial thing. But these things would bother some people.
Spay-C* July 6, 2018 at 5:04 pm One thing I’m good at is keeping information confidential! :) I’m a quiet and private person, so while I’ll talk enough to be friendly, I tend to not spread information about myself or my work except on a need-to-know basis. (Like, I was auditing a coworker’s work last year and found a bunch of big mistakes. Never told anyone except the person who wanted the audit results even though I’m sure my teammates would have loved to know because said coworker was very gossipy and condescending anytime someone else made a small mistake.)
Bea* July 6, 2018 at 2:56 pm I only work under the top dogs. Ownership and CEO. It’s not a big deal, you can’t let their “power” intimidate you. They are hiring someone to help them out in some way. I get why it’s scary going in but they’re a bunch of people who are just normal people with a lot of responsibility. I treat mine like they’re just a regular manager. I don’t have time for hierarchy bullsht!
Bea* July 6, 2018 at 3:03 pm And I should say I’m wearing a Disney princess tshirt, jeans and ponytail. You’re going to be fine. We are not glamorous unless you’re working in an industry that cares about that crap. Working for these people gave me much more power to expand my career. When you earn the trust of people with their networking, you have a lot of places to go. Granted this industry, these people are also readily engaged with all employees. So they’re having BBQs and all that jazz with us as well.
Spay-C* July 6, 2018 at 5:10 pm You wear a Disney princess t-shirt, jeans and ponytail to work under a “top dog”?!?!?! I’m jealous! It’s a good point that it would be a good career move. Aside from networking, being able to put “[achieved impressive thing] for VP” on my resume and being able to list a VP as a reference would be nice!
Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome (formerly BAL or BLA(h)...)* July 7, 2018 at 9:29 am I reported directly to the president and CEO (if you’ve been following my sags, you know they weren’t very presidential or CEO like). Every day, I wore skinny jeans, sandals and a casual top, Friday’s I wore t-shirts. Some days I pulled my (waist length) hair back in a ponytail, some days I let it fly free….and it would fly! They’re all different….. I say go for it! Give yourself some credit that you ARE awesome.
LilySparrow* July 6, 2018 at 3:26 pm I think you’re psyching yourself out unnecessarily. Depending on the corporate structure, VP may just translate to “head of department” or even “head of subdivision.” I’ve worked in places that had dozens of VPs. I did a stint as EA to the chief legal officer for North America of an international finance company. My boss was a direct report to the international CLO, and more or less lateral to the regional CEO. She had vice-presidents reporting to her. I was 26 and it was my first non-temp job in a corporate environment. I wore minimal makeup, and had to buy some “nice” office clothes with my first paycheck. I swapped through two skirt suits, two pairs of slacks, and a bunch of shells for my whole first year. My hair was rarely “done,” but I would often twist it up and clip it to pass for an updo. Sometimes I showed up with no makeup and my hair still wet. (So did my boss). I only needed to be especially polished on certain occasions, which were scheduled in advance. Honestly, in a job like that you want to be nearly invisible. You’re not on display – you just need to fit in with the general office decor: not conspicuously sloppy or conspicuously fancy. Duties-wise it was more about scheduling and managing my boss’s correspondence than the general admin I was used to. But all it really needed was common sense, a professional demeanor on the phone, determination to (politely but persistently) get her what she wanted, and the ability to tell people “no” on her behalf. I don’t know whether the job you’re looking at is admin or a specific skill set, but if you like the basic job description, go for it! The boss’s title matters a lot less than their management ability and the company culture. Just be good at what you do – that’s all the polish you need.
Spay-C* July 6, 2018 at 5:12 pm I didn’t realize places could have multiple VPs. It’s a fairly big business (several hundred employees), so maybe they do have multiple VPs!
Spay-C* July 6, 2018 at 5:15 pm Thank you for all the replies! They’ve made me realize that I have some unrealistic ideas about higher ups and the people that work for them, and maybe I could still be a good fit for the job (or other jobs that work under higher ups). I’ll keep an open mind and see how far I get in the interview process. (I’ve only done a phone screening, so I haven’t even made it that far yet.)
no more CEOs* July 8, 2018 at 11:35 am Uh, it was different for me because the CEO was a lying, racist, sexist politician who hid it well in front of the board, but not in front of everyone he had more power over, so he basically had carte blanche to behave however he wanted. I was miserable until I left.
Formerly Frustrated Optimist* July 6, 2018 at 11:10 am This is a note I have dreamed about writing on the Friday open thread: After three years of intensive job searching, and 146 applications, I was finally offered a position last week. For any of you who remember me from previous comments, the good news was that I did have a job – but I was beginning to see that the organization was on shaky ground, and, worse, I was being marginalized in pointed ways. So when I say I sent out 146 applications, I mean applications where you go through the lengthy online process; write an expertly-worded cover letter; and tailor your resume. (In other words, I was not using a job search web site where you basically click to have your resume sent to a job posting). The main problem, I think, was that the field I am in is … well, “competitive,” may not be the right word, but “closed.” For mid-career positions, you either have to know someone, or have worked your way up from an entry-level job to a mid-career position. I also ran into many situations where – after I saw who they did hire – I realized I’d been interviewed as a filler candidate. (Again, see previous comments with my username, without the “Formerly.”) But finally, finally, finally, a company recognized my talent and told me I was their top candidate. The work is exactly what I had hoped to be doing. There were some trade-offs, though: The commute will be double (though under an hour, one way) and I am having to take a not-insignificant pay cut. However, the manager was so impressed with me that she shared that I would be on track for a promotion in a year or less. Best of all, this company is part of a much larger organization, with definitely room to grow overall. As far as suggestions, well, I don’t even know. I think one suggestion is that networking should be an organic process, developing alongside your career. I did not have much of a network in place, so during my search, I tried meeting people, talking about the field, and asking them to keep me in mind if there were to be an opening. Lots of people were nice enough, but it never led to any concrete leads. Ultimately, it came down to persistence; increasing my geographic search radius; and being willing to take a step back to move forward. You might say that the job I accepted is a diamond in the rough. I also had to think realistically about what would happen if I lost my current job: I would be forced to take a “survival job” in a field that I hate, for far, far less pay. I hope my story might give others hope. If you have any questions about what I found did or did not end up being helpful, I will do my best to answer.
Emily S.* July 6, 2018 at 11:30 am Congratulations, and good luck! The advancement potential at your new job sounds wonderful.
Ali G* July 6, 2018 at 11:48 am Wow! Congratulations. I am kind of where you were. I do have a decent network, but unfortunately I want to change fields so they can only help me so much. Like you I am taking a step (or 2) back to move forward in the long run. I’m glad it finally worked out for you!
LKW* July 6, 2018 at 12:53 pm Congrats! Under an hour commute – totally doable. Subscribe to some podcasts and use your local library’s audio books!
Chaordic One* July 6, 2018 at 2:05 pm Yes! Congratulations! (Being a “filler candidate” really sucks.)
nep* July 6, 2018 at 6:13 pm Wow–thanks for this. Congratulations on the offer. I salute your hard work and persistence.
Girl from the North Country* July 6, 2018 at 11:11 am One of my coworkers frequently complains that we don’t get paid enough compared to others in our industry. I’m curious about this, since I feel like I’m making a pretty good salary, but I want to know what her idea of “low pay” is. I wish I could ask her how much she makes, but (the usual awkwardness of that question aside), I’m worried that it WILL be low, and then I’ll have to disclose my higher salary to her and things will be weird. Is there a delicate way to approach this subject?
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 11:17 am Sure. “What’s the standard you’d expect in our industry?” Ask about the number she’s hoping for rather than the number she has.
Murphy* July 6, 2018 at 11:18 am Can you ask what she thinks you should get paid based on research into market rates? You can find out what she thinks is acceptable, which will give you a better idea of where her salary lies.
Judy (since 2010)* July 6, 2018 at 11:23 am I’d do some research online to understand what the pay for your industry & location would be first.
LKW* July 6, 2018 at 12:55 pm I’d also recommend that you consider the whole package. Insurance, PTO, flex time, etc. Some companies pay more in salary but fewer perks.
Cancer Crush Anon* July 6, 2018 at 11:11 am Hi all, Just wanted to give everyone my last update since it’s been a few months: – I started my new job and everything is going well. I miss a lot of my former coworkers and the general comradely immensely, but I am meeting people here too. I was in a meeting and the CEO walked in extremely casually and put his hand on the woman presenting’s shoulder and I immediately bristled. It’s something I’ll have to retrain my mind. This is a MASSIVE company, so the fact that the CEO walked into a meeting was a Cool Big Deal. It’s so funny how perspectives can change based on your experiences. – I can’t remember if I said this before, but my leaving my last job was incredibly dramatic and sudden…and surprisingly unrelated to The Reason why I left. I left after 4 days notice instead of 10. My friends who still work there said it was the talk of the entire company. Whoops. Basically, they tried to claim my separate bucket of personal time that I used for my dad’s cancer was vacation so they could avoid paying me out my vacation. This was my boss and her boss, not HR. Needless to say, HR apologized immensely the next week after everything I have been through. – My new city is also exciting. There’s lots to do and we haven’t even explored a bit due to handling things back home and just general busyness. I love living with my S.O., and all is well on that front. Therefore, today is going to be my last update under this username. I will go back to my default username, and hopefully with have no more crazy drama with ANYONE at any company to ever report on here.
neverjaunty* July 6, 2018 at 12:23 pm So glad things are better! It’s been a rough road for you for too long.
Namast'ay in Bed* July 6, 2018 at 12:37 pm Congratulations! I’m so happy to hear that you’re in a better place. Good luck with everything!
Nita* July 6, 2018 at 12:57 pm Glad things are better! Good luck in the new job, new city and all that!
Scared of Working Again* July 6, 2018 at 11:11 am I’m anxious to get a job (currently unemployed), but also terrified of getting a job. You see, the previous three jobs I had all turned out to be horrible places where I was so miserable and stressed out that it affected my health. I couldn’t even relax at home because the fact that I’d have to go back to work was always looming. My previous jobs were all jobs where it was the first thing offered to me and I had to take it (took Job #1 because I needed a job after graduating, then took Job #2 because I was desperate to leave Job #1, then took Job #3 because I was desperate to leave Job #2). The jobs didn’t give me any desirable skills or experience so I’m not a good job candidate, and I know when I’m offered another job that will be the only job offer I’ll have—I won’t have a choice again. I feel like that guarantees the next job will be horrible too since that’s been my past experience. I’ve never had a vacation before (my previous jobs either didn’t have PTO or only offered a week off, which I needed to save for emergencies), so it’s been really nice to just be home and have time for hobbies and family. Though I’m anxious about not being employed, it’s not anywhere as stressful as being at a horrible job. I really don’t want to go back to work.
Inspector Spacetime* July 6, 2018 at 2:32 pm So, it seems you’ve had an unusual experience and some extraordinarily bad luck. I’ve worked at five separate places, and loved four of them. I didn’t like the fifth, but all things considered it actually wasn’t that bad. Not every job is terrible, and just because your previous jobs were doesn’t mean your next one will be. You should maybe consider if there are any commonalities between these jobs that caused you to hate them. Is it the work you’ve been doing? The industry? The hours? The people? Whatever the problem is, is it possible to figure this out in the interview stage before you accept the position? What stands out for me is that you’ve always leaped at the first job offered, regardless of red flags. That’s understandable, especially when you are in a toxic job, but now I think you should take the time to make sure your next job will not be completely miserable. You DO have a choice whether to take your next job offer or not. Obviously, you need to keep in mind your finances, but picky job searching is better for your finances than not job searching at all. It might also be worth talking about your situation with somebody, maybe a therapist. I’m probably projecting, but your mindset reminds me of when I was trying to job search with depression. Apologies for the long comment. Good luck!
StellaBella* July 6, 2018 at 2:42 pm I completely understand this. I have had similar experiences with toxic work situations and am currently in university full time, looking for work to start again in October. However in your case, I think you did some work, so you must have some skills you can capitalise on, right? Also – what helped me is that I saw a counsellor for 6 months and while it was costly, it helped to learn how to cope with my anxiety, with toxic situations, and how to frame things differently. I hope you can find a new, better, kinder group of people to work with and that your anxiety goes away too after a better experience. Good luck!
That's Not My Job* July 6, 2018 at 2:49 pm No suggestions, just commiseration. My first job was with a verbally abusive boss/owner but I was 13 and getting paid under the table so I didn’t know any better. My second job was pretty great the first summer, the college age kids accepted little 16 year old me and trained me in place of our rather absent boss. I made the mistake of going back a second summer where I was bullied and ultimately undermined to my boss to the point where I was getting yelled at daily for things like watching TV instead of doing my job (in a room notably absent a TV *shrug*). Those were the two jobs my dad was so proud of procuring for me. Thanks Dad. In college I wandered into a jobs fair and rather accidentally got talked into applying for a position way out of my comfort zone or field. It was my first experience with a kind, competent, and professional boss. I discovered I enjoyed the work and after graduation I got a job in the same field. It’s been good to me but I’m starting to think of going back into the field I studied for or at least getting a better paying job. I wish I could tell you that, having experienced two pretty great work environments, I’m not scared of getting a job anymore. I am though, and all I can say is I wish you more courage than I have.
Bea* July 6, 2018 at 3:27 pm My SO had a string of jobs that left him stressed as well and sucked. Imagine my horror when I brought him into a job I had that I had good success and love for. Only to have the ship shift directions and it sucked. However this has a happy ending. We’re both in jobs we love. No more hidden crazypants lurking. So I know you’re scared and I don’t want to minimise your fears. But I’ve seen it work out. I believe in self filled prophesies, please dig down deep and be optimistic. Sell yourself as someone who wants to develop skills and a great work history despite your setbacks. You can do it!!!
strawberries and raspberries* July 6, 2018 at 11:12 am Finally, the open thread. I found out yesterday that I didn’t get the job I was waiting on pins and needles for (after two great interviews, a thoroughly positive reference check, and some inside intel that everyone was pulling for me). I have a long relationship with the organization as a (way above and beyond) volunteer, and my colleague who would have been my supervisor told me that ultimately it came down to another candidate who had just a little more directly applicable experience than I did, but that the entire hiring committee was really impressed by me and she would absolutely keep me in mind for future opportunities. And of course I was grateful and appreciative and tried to put it in “You’ll always get the thing you need even if you don’t get the thing you want” perspective, but it’s still so disappointing. Most of all because I was so sure I was going to get this job that I halted my job search (stupid, I know) and now I have to start over. Last night it was easier to be positive. Now that I’m sitting at work at my current job that I’m miserable in, it stings a lot harder. I don’t want to lose motivation to look for something else, and my fantasy of roller-skating out of here while flipping everyone off doesn’t seem as helpful now that I don’t actually have another job lined up. I’m just glad it’s Friday.
Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want* July 6, 2018 at 11:19 am Oh man, that sucks! You have my sympathy.
GRA* July 6, 2018 at 2:24 pm I’m so sorry :( I found out this week that I didn’t get a job I was so excited about (it was almost a five month process between applying, interviews, etc.). I feel your pain and am sending internet hugs!!
GradStudent* July 6, 2018 at 11:12 am I apologize if this isn’t the place for this/feel free to delete my comment if this is inappropriate … I am thinking about trying to get into freelance writing, specifically article and copywriting. I am currently a PhD student in the social sciences and have published several articles as the first author, and I have published creative pieces in some mid-tier literary publications as well (those rarely pay, unfortunately). I’ve written website copy for free/fun for friends in the past, e.g., the bio for a musician friend’s website. My question is: what is the best way to get started??? I don’t know that I have a specific topic “niche.” I’ve explored Upwork and similar freelance sites and I’m hesitant to get into the gig space because it seems to take advantage of workers, though I’ve also heard of good experiences? I’d prefer to build relationships with a few people/potential clients in my city (large city in the Midwest), but I really have no idea where to begin. It had occurred to me to just go to young-professional type meetups to meet people and put my name out there as a writer, but I’m not sure if there’s a more streamlined way.
Gloucesterina* July 6, 2018 at 11:52 am I can sympathize with the desire to get off the academic track! I’m unfamiliar with the ins and outs of freelancing or freelancing writing as a profession, but I’d tend to imagine that it’s important to start accumulating paid publications in order to build the portfolio you’d need in order to market yourself to prospective clients. I’m sure others here will have experience and more concrete ideas to share with you. Good luck!
Smith* July 6, 2018 at 11:53 am I am considering the same thing about freelancing. Lots of good ideas from this book on the ins and outs of freelance careers http://freelancersbible.com
Gloucesterina* July 6, 2018 at 12:00 pm Do you know the Versatile PhD site? It has a section on writing and editing that also has a Q&A on freelance writing specifically. From your post, it sounds a bit like you are actually wary of freelancing (amplified job precarity and all) so the site may have good info to help you explore writing roles in different contexts.
GradStudent* July 6, 2018 at 12:16 pm Thanks for the recommendation! I’m actually not interested in leaving academia (my PhD will be in clinical psychology, which allows me to be a little more applied anyway), I just really enjoy writing for non-academic audiences, and it would be nice to pad my stipend a little bit :). But as a millenial I have many friends who have done freelancing/gig work in a way that really devalued their time and I’m not interested in that … I’m fortunate enough to be in a position where I don’t desperately need work.
Gloucesterina* July 6, 2018 at 12:42 pm That’s awesome–being able to write for different audiences is such a useful skill wherever your career takes you. Another thought – this probably varies a lot by institution and discipline, but you might also see if your university or field has any web venues for grad students to write for a wider audience. For instance, my university has an official grad student blog that students can apply to write for; I also know historians who write for sites like Nursing Clio that draw on academic research to speak to the public.
Gloucesterina* July 6, 2018 at 12:43 pm I should add that I don’t think these types of venues would pay, or pay much if anything, but they might be good for building up the portfolio!
Bumblebee* July 6, 2018 at 12:26 pm One of your top advantages will likely be your background – can you research and translate scholarly concepts in the social sciences to a mainstream audience? Pubs like Smithsonian Mag, Citylab, and JSTOR Daily will pay freelancers who can do that (among others. Check out http://whopayswriters.com/#/results). Once you have a few non-creative publications, you can leverage that to do more freelancing; I know many freelancers set up a personal website to give a brief description of their background, and a list of their publications and refer potential clients there. Rates are generally pretty low for freelance writers on Upwork and the like – it would probably take a bit before you could command a higher rate there.
ContentWrangler* July 6, 2018 at 5:01 pm Have you looked into any staffing agencies in your area who target creative fields? I’ve used a couple different staffing agencies to find freelance work (I have a full-time writing job, I just also like to keep an eye out for things to diversify my portfolio/make some extra cash). The staffing agency I liked best actually had me come in for an “interview” where we went over my experience and work interests. Now I’m in their system and if they have a job posting that fits my resume, I get an email.
LilySparrow* July 6, 2018 at 5:18 pm Constant Content is one article clearinghouse that is always looking for contributors – some on specific teams with assignments, and some “on spec” to sell. They are advertising at 10 cents a word, which is decent for the type of work. With your specialized background, you could probably do better than average. In my experience, the exhausting part of freelancing is looking for clients. It’s always better to get a long-term or recurring contract — or several — rather than doing one-offs and having to hunt for another opportunity. You can run job searches on Google, Linkedin, and writing-focused sites like freelancewriting.com. Look for “Content Writer”. A lot of industry blogs need a certain amount of articles per week, and are looking for either in-house or contract writers. If you have 3-4 samples and can write a decent cover letter, that’s all you need to start applying.
SophieChotek* July 6, 2018 at 11:12 am Dress Code – If this is more for Sat, I apologise and will re-post later. Have to go to work function – represent my company at cocktail reception and banquet (where industry awards will be given.) The organization that is hosting the entire dinner/banquet said in a mass email that it is “casual” and not as “formal” as a traditional banquet, but I looked at the photos online and they looked pretty formal to me. (But I also dress very casually at my job, as it is not client-facing, and I also dress casually in my free time also.) Anyway – I have a black dress picked out. About knee-length. My question is: what is fashionable right now? Sheers (hosiery) or not? Or is it just a personal preference? I read up online, the advice seems somewhat mixed…. Thanks!
Higher Ed Database Dork* July 6, 2018 at 11:18 am I think a black dress without hose is fine, with maybe some more casual dressy shoes (not like super high, shiny heels, but a lower block heel). Disclaimer: I’m in Texas and detest hosiery so I’m a little biased there. Can’t really go wrong with a black knee-length dress, though I would say stick to more dressy/structured fabrics and cuts – like not a swingy modal trapeze dress, but more like a shift dress. I’d go more for timeless/classic than fashionable, which will fit in easily with however the dress code manifests.
TechServLib* July 6, 2018 at 11:23 am No hosiery. Add a sparkly accessory if you’re worried about not looking formal enough.
Washi* July 6, 2018 at 11:24 am What is fashionable: no pantyhose What is safe in a conservative environment: pantyhose Can’t tell from your post how conservative or casual the banquet is, but as a younger person, I tend to dress on the more conservative side for functions like that. I think pantyhose is stupid and I think a lot of men won’t even notice, but there are a surprising number of women over maybe 50 who seem to consider bare legs with a dress to be one step away from nudity.
Mockingjay* July 6, 2018 at 12:27 pm I am over 50 and loathe pantyhose. I live in a very warm, humid area on the Southeast coast. Nobody I know wears hosiery from March through November, even for formal events. (I’m okay with colored tights during our brief winter; these come in fun colors and look great with boots.)
SophieChotek* July 6, 2018 at 12:49 pm Interesting. This meeting is in a Southeastern coastal state….good to know!
Washi* July 6, 2018 at 1:03 pm Maybe I’ve just ended up in a bit of a conservative bubble, since I’m on the mid-Atlantic coast and just last week someone (external, not a coworker) took a look at my bare legs and muttered audibly to herself “I’ll never get used to how people are going around only half-dressed these days.” :)
Zona the Great* July 6, 2018 at 4:12 pm How passive of her! Also, what a terrible thing to say. Hosiery was most certainly created by a man :-)
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 7:13 pm It was probably different when stockings were made of silk—these synthetic materials are much less comfortable.
Cookie Monster* July 6, 2018 at 11:25 am No hosiery – sheer tights would be fine in the winter, but that’s not really seasonally appropriate anymore, unless you’re in a different hemisphere. Thank goodness dress norms have evolved enough to where woman are not expected to wear hosiery with dresses in all seasons. I would just wear it with black heels, or if you wanted to be fun, use your shoes to add a pop of color.
Emily S.* July 6, 2018 at 11:33 am Personal preference. I wear stockings on the rare occasions when I wear a skirt, just because I think it looks nicer. So I feel more confident.
Sled dog mama* July 6, 2018 at 12:01 pm I wear stockings (or hose) with skirts for a purely practical reason. It keeps my thighs from rubbing which irritates me.
epi* July 6, 2018 at 1:24 pm You might like a product like a body glide– goes on like a deodorant and reduces friction (you could even use deodorant if you can’t find these other products). Gold Bond makes one, or you can find similar products in athletic stores/sections. There are also lotions that do something similar, e.g. one from Anthony that turns into a powder when it dries. It’s great on hot days since it soaks up sweat and reduces friction, and you don’t have to wear anything extra at all. The lotion-to-powder products can leave powder marks if you’re not careful but IME they are pretty easy to avoid. That Anthony lotion made walking to and from meetings all day, in a dress, on an incredibly muggy Chicago summer day, pretty bearable. Or at a minimum, not gross.
Allie J* July 6, 2018 at 3:54 pm Or Cake Satin Sugar Hair & Body powder! Can be used on your legs to reduce friction or as dry shampoo! It’s the best. Got me through several hot and muggy DC summers wearing dresses :)
epi* July 6, 2018 at 11:52 am I wouldn’t wear hose unless you have some reason to, like you have some really attractive ones picked out or you expect to be cold or something. IMO hose aren’t fashionable or unfashionable, they are simply optional. They look odd and old-fashioned when it looks like you think they are required– e.g. wearing them on a very hot day, with a casual dress, or wearing heavy ones that don’t match your skin tone.
Ashley* July 6, 2018 at 1:17 pm If you are normally cold wear them. Otherwise I would skip it. The fancy things I have been to in a normally casual environment it has been a non issue.
AvonLady Barksdale* July 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm Lately I’ve been wearing footless black tights (pretty opaque ones) with wedges, for any dress that hits me above the knee. I like the look, plus I feel more comfortable. So that’s an option too.
SophieChotek* July 6, 2018 at 12:50 pm Thank you all for your advice and suggestions! Much appreciated.
LKW* July 6, 2018 at 12:58 pm No hose. Make sure you have moisturized legs. They have lotions with a teeny bit of shimmer or since it’s summer, bronzer. But test it – some have a lot of shimmer/color and won’t be appropriate.
SophieChotek* July 6, 2018 at 9:28 pm Although I read she wears “sheers” and prefer some brand that costs like $60 a pair. But, yes, I agree, if she doesn’t wear them…the rest of us don’t need to either! =)
Anon today* July 6, 2018 at 11:25 pm Ummm, actually she does, nude tights (pantyhose)…it’s a big requirement for the job, so to speak. The Duchess of Sussex has also started wearing them since her marriage.
The Good Boss* July 7, 2018 at 5:18 am She does wear pantyhose, and so do I because I’m older and have multicolored legs (veins).
Susan Sto Helit* July 6, 2018 at 11:13 am I’ve been dealing with some external creatives who are just unbearably difficult to work with. I’m stuck with them until the project is done, but they’re driving me nuts. Both are considerably older than me, and male (I’m female). Having delivered their side of the project six weeks late, forcing me to manage the rest on a considerably reduced time frame, they’ve been rude and obstructive ever since. (Note: this is not just my own opinion; my [male] manager was copied in on a tiny sample of their communications and was almost incandescent with rage. I could only laugh and tell him I had dozens more of them). A typical email from me will greet them politely, before providing a clear list of amendments I need/questions I need them to answer. I’ll be responded to every time with a slew of single-line emails (no greeting or sign-off, naturally) every time another thought comes to them – almost always an objection, or a complaint, or a nitpick about another topic. Generally they will reply and then get into an extended debate between them about one single element of the email, ignoring all other points/questions and forcing me to chase over and over again (example: a two-sentence email I sent one of them, one sentence of which was a question, received a nitpicked argument against the substance of my first point, and ignored the question entirely). The language they use is almost always brusque and rude, and shows no regard whatsoever for my own time and the amount of time and energy I’m spending trying to pry what I need out of them. It’s constant complaints and objections, but never a single solution offered either. It’s just exhausting. I’m so glad it’s the weekend.
Elle* July 6, 2018 at 12:55 pm So sorry you’re dealing with this. Can you at least be sure going forward that this dual jackassery will never, ever, be hired again? And perhaps add that sentiment to a “Goodbye” email when your project has been completed and signed off on? Even if you cannot, it’s good sometimes to fantasize such things!
AnonGD* July 6, 2018 at 2:38 pm Good lord, that sounds like a ball of fun… so I’m a creative, albeit young and female. If I’m going back and forth over email too much with a client I will just pick up the phone and settle all the changes needed there to make sure I’m clear on what is actually going on to cause so many revisions (and send summary emails if a paper trail is needed). If you haven’t already I would try that. Don’t give them the space to cause confusion over email and try to cut off communication between drafts beyond that unless they literally can’t proceed without clarification. I do believe you that these guys are a major PITA, but also, six weeks late is insane in my world. Cut your losses with these two for future projects… but make sure that you’re doing everything in your power to keep future projects on track. Not saying I’m perfect, I’ve done my fair share of over-promising but it is pretty rare that a project that delayed is a totally one-sided affair. It’s helpful to make an honest assessment of the project outside of “those guys sucked,” otherwise you might unintentionally carry that ill-will into future interactions with creatives (ask me how I know lol)
Susan Sto Helit* July 9, 2018 at 12:22 pm One of them lost a close family member a month or so before deadline, which does explain some (though not all) of the delay from their end, and did merit some sensitivity from us in terms of how soon and how firmly we started pushing for delivery. I do think it’s time to start building bonus clauses for timely delivery into contracts though.
ThatGirl* July 6, 2018 at 11:14 am I sympathized somewhat with the LW earlier this week whose husband got super cranky every time he had to job search. My husband has been at the same job for 7 years now, and he’s good at it, and he likes the environment (small university, he’s an LPC) but the pay is low and stagnant (in fact he took a paycut last year) and the administration is dysfunctional. The problem is there aren’t a lot of these jobs out there, despite there being a decent amount of colleges and universities out there, and he’s bad at networking, not to mention not terribly motivated to job search. Things are just bad enough to make him unhappy but just good enough to keep him from doing anything about it. Combine that with cyclical depression. The good news is he doesn’t really take it out on me, but I definitely get frustrated sometimes by his lack of motivation.
There is a Life Outside the Library* July 6, 2018 at 11:35 am Yeeeahhh, I kinda felt that one too. My husband has been with his job for 10 years (it sounds like a relationship?) and I recently moved for a new job. He was/is fine with looking for a new job, but has been off the market for SO long that I think it’s just kinda hitting him that the job search is not easy. I feel bad and feel like I’m the one putting him through it. Blahh.
Jennifer* July 6, 2018 at 2:03 pm I have similar issues. I’m not terribly motivated to job search when all I see are the same few crap jobs offered over and over again that I don’t want to do and/or am not qualified for.
The New Wanderer* July 6, 2018 at 10:29 pm I’m the out of work spouse and it does suck. I’m doing what I can but i see the same jobs posted that I am qualified for, have applied to, and hear nothing. Like, I could have been working there for six months and been completely up to speed by now but please do keep waiting for that 20-something unicorn who you think can do it all for half my salary expectations. The worst is that one of the job sites just posted a job that sounds great for me… and on the company website, the application cycle ended in January of this year. I know for a fact it was never posted earlier and I haven’t changed my search criteria. Wtf?
Working Hypothesis* July 8, 2018 at 10:05 pm Is it possible that deadline is a typo or got left in by mistake from a previous post or something? I’d try applying anyway, if it is physically possible to do so (i.e. unless the website issue means that you can’t click through the the application or something), just on the chance that this is something as simple as a posting error.
Matilda Jefferies* July 6, 2018 at 11:14 am Quick question for PhD students and other researchers: I’m not on the REB at my organization, but I do review research proposals, and occasionally have some email conversations directly with the researchers. What’s the social convention for ending these conversations, once I have everything I need and am sending the proposal back to the REB? Is it appropriate to say “Best of luck with your research,” or similar?
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 11:19 am I honestly can’t even remember what people have said. Your signoff sounds fine, or “Let me know if you need anything else.” Anything short of “You suck and I hope your project goes down in flames” is probably fine.
Matilda Jefferies* July 6, 2018 at 11:21 am Ha! I would be lying if I told you I had never had that thought…fortunately I’ve also never put it in an email!
Princess of Pure Reason* July 6, 2018 at 11:35 am I’m an IRB associate chair and I think “Best of luck” would probably be fine. What should be avoided is any language that might imply any kind of endorsement/approval of the research. Even though you know you’re not on the REB and not be part of the group issuing the determinations, you don’t want the researchers reading anything into your communications and extrapolating even an implication of a determination. I’ve seen it happen where a researcher/staff reads something as an approval or endorsement and then the official determination is different – and they come back with “But so-and-so said it was okay!” even when that’s not what so-and-so meant or said at all. But “Best of luck” is pretty neutral and generic and I’d say neutrality is key.
Matilda Jefferies* July 6, 2018 at 1:19 pm I’m definitely going for neutral, and also “I can’t answer any more of your questions from this point.” So I’m looking for something polite but final. Thanks for the confirmation!
epi* July 6, 2018 at 12:00 pm I have been in this position– I was the contact for a board that had to review research proposals before the IRB and determine that the part we would be doing was safe and practical. Think representing a lab, and we would have to say we have the resources to do the tests in the protocol and the tests are appropriate. When I inherited that job, we were seen as really hard to work with, so I was also trying to be extra pleasant and responsive to fix that. I would not wish people luck. If the protocol is well-designed– or even if it has some issues but the researchers behave professionally about making the needed revisions– then eventual approval is not exactly a crapshoot. I usually signed off the same as I would in any other situation: telling them the next step I or they would take and signing “Thank you” or “Best”. If appropriate, I might add that they should feel free to reach back out once the study was beginning, if they needed help setting up the procedures that our department would be doing.
Matilda Jefferies* July 6, 2018 at 1:26 pm Thanks! I definitely want to be pleasant and responsive, and also to firmly close the conversation at the point that I’m sending that email. I do often say just “thanks,” but that was feeling too curt, so I’ve been looking for a way of acknowledging the project they’re about to do.
TL -* July 7, 2018 at 2:11 am You can also try a version of, “You’re good to move on to Next Step, but if you run into any issues, please let me know. Best, Matilda”
kracken* July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am I either need a dose of reality or some sense that I can achieve this. I really don’t want to work full-time. I’m exhausted all the time and I can’t do any of the activities I enjoy because I either have to work or rest up for work. I also kind of don’t see the point. I’m busting my ass but I’ll never make enough money to buy a house, retire, or send a kid to college. I just find myself wondering why I’m working so hard and sacrificing so much now when it seems like I’ll never benefit from it the way I might have in another time. So I would like to work 32 hours a week. I have a lot of friends who work 32 hour weeks after previously working 40 hour weeks and they have all said it is the best thing that could have happened to them. They do better at their jobs and have time to actually live their lives. The thing is, they all work in food service or retail, and don’t make nearly as much money as I do and do not have benefits. And that’s the thing- I want to work 32 hours a week, make the same amount of money I do now ($45,000/year) and have health insurance. Is this unrealistic of me to expect? I am a legal assistant/paralegal. I’m still early in my career and recognize I probably don’t have the experience to be making demands like this just yet, but maybe when I’ve got 3-5 years of experience? I’m willing to wait and take my time on a job search, and while staying in the legal field seems like the path of least resistance I’m more than willing to go outside that industry if it gets me where I want to be. Or do I just need to suck it up, deal with these 40 hour weeks, and hope that someday I make enough money for it all to be worthwhile?
Alternative Person* July 6, 2018 at 11:46 am Being in a position to work fewer hours is what I’m currently working towards for various reasons but it’s required me to take on more work in the short-medium term because reliability is the key factor in getting contracts, and I’ve had to shell out more money than I really want to think about getting on-paper qualifications to match my experience (which I’d have had to do sooner or later anyway). Hopefully, in a year or two, I’ll be able to work a core of 25-30 hours for more money than I make now (for 35-40 hours work) and pick up other jobs as and when I want. I think it might be worth doing some research into what you can reasonably expect in and around your field over what amount of time and then decide accordingly. There might be a parallel field you can switch to that offers the conditions you want or it might be a matter of getting certain certifications that will make that range possible.
whistle* July 6, 2018 at 11:48 am I think it will be very hard to find a 32 hour a week job period (let alone with benefits and the pay you are expecting). I don’t think it should be this way, but that’s the reality. (I read an interview with Kurt Vonnegut once where he described his writing routine that consisted of 35 hours a week of work. He stated that no one should work more than 35 hours a week, and that has stuck with me and I agree with it. I still work 42-45 hours a week, though, because that’s how it is.) I actually think your best bet is to get in with a smallish/family business full time and excel in the position for a couple of years. Then propose that they drop you down to 32 hours, which they might go for because you are doing great work and smallish businesses have the flexibility to work these types of things out. I know this is a long game and not a very satisfying answer. ( I am assuming you are in the US)
Jessi* July 6, 2018 at 11:55 am I think it is a bit unrealistic to work 32 and still make the same amount of money…… You’d only be doing 80% of the work, so why would your employer still pay you for 100% of the job? Could you move somewhere cheaper so your money will go further and you will feel like you are achieving something? One way to jump around this could be to wait for your next promotion/ pay rise and then bring up the option of working 32 hours as that may help mitigate some of the loss of wage? Look for a new position that only needs 32 hours per week? Could you shuffle your schedule around in such a way that you have more time? (half your lunch break, work extra each day and take a short friday) I guess you could become a contractor? then you would set your own hours and only work 32 of them – that won’t help with the health insurance thing though.
Lucky* July 6, 2018 at 12:03 pm Do you want your 32 hours to be a 4-day work week, or do you want to work 5 shorter days? If the former, you may want to see if your current employer will let you switch to 4 10-hour days. Yes, those days will be longer, but the extra day off can mean you feel fully able to disconnect from work for most of the weekend. If 5 shorter days, you may want to approach your current employer and ask if they are willing to let you go part-time. You should expect a pay cut, but if you can show that you work efficiently (and if you can be flexible on your start/end times) that cut may not be a full 20%. Or, look for a new position that pays better, then indiciate you want part-time in your cover letter (or in interviews – check the archives as I’m sure that Alison has dealt with this).
Salad* July 6, 2018 at 2:37 pm If 10-hour days seem too long you could also propose 4 9-hour days (Mon-Thur), and every other Friday off. The Fridays you work would be 8-hour days for a total of 80 hours over 2 weeks. I do this (just work through my lunch hour) and LOVE it.
nonegiven* July 6, 2018 at 3:45 pm DH’s work does this. They count noon Friday to noon Friday as their working week to make it legal, (they hope.) Everyone loves it but I think they could go back to 8 hour days if they didn’t. They’re paid once a month, so it doesn’t really affect the paychecks.
Xarcady* July 6, 2018 at 12:03 pm Another option might be to find work that you can do for 40 hours a week that doesn’t leave you exhausted. That doesn’t give you more time to do the things you want to, I’ll admit, but when you do have the time, you would be able to do what you wanted to do.
Wanna Be PT* July 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm Your best bet is probably to work your way up until your salary is 20% higher than it is now, then you may be able to take a 20% cut in both time and pay. So you’d be back to making $45k but working 4 days a week (or the equivalent divided up however your employer agrees.) Lifestyle inflation is a real, big thing though so I would automatically save any raises so you continue to live on the same amount of money. Look around for companies that seem flexible with time and make a move now if needed. You will likely need time to prove yourself to a new employer before you make a big ask like this. (It shouldn’t be a big ask and I wish that the US was more accepting of part time work as a valid life choice, but the reality is just not there right now.) Benefits are a whole different question – it can be done but again, you’ll have to negotiate. You may need to pay a higher percentage of the costs yourself. Or explore your options in the marketplace (if you dip below full time hours you might be eligible for more options) and factor any increased costs into your decision about how high your salary needs to be before it can be cut to match your desired hours.
Bagpuss* July 6, 2018 at 1:46 pm I think this is what it comes down to. You can work to get a higher wage, save the difference so you don’t get used to having the higher income, then request a reduction in hours. Alternatively you can look at your financial options to see whether you could afford to take a pay cut now, and work shorter hours but accept that it means earning less. You could also consider whether there is anything you could do to boost your income any hobby you can monetise, so if you do cut your hours you could make back some of the lost income from other sources, in ways you might find less stressful. (but I’d be surprised if your could close the gap this way, it would probably need to be part of a bigger plan involving cutting your outgoings as well
neverjaunty* July 6, 2018 at 12:27 pm It’s not unrealistic; you will need to be careful about what area of law and firm you are at (it IS unrealistic if you were working in civil litigation, for example).
kracken* July 6, 2018 at 12:47 pm lol that is exactly the area of law I’m working in. I figured I would need to leave that behind if I want a more part-time schedule which is fine, I’m not in love with civil litigation and have wanted to explore other areas for some time. Any thoughts on what areas of law I should be targeting instead? The only one I’m 100% opposed to is family law.
neverjaunty* July 6, 2018 at 12:58 pm What about corporate practices (not on the litigation side) or estates and trusts? Any area of that that isn’t trial-focused would probably fit.
CTT* July 6, 2018 at 1:37 pm It can be unrealistic for corporate as well, depending on what sort of work it is. Transactions consistently close at the end of the month, and from my experience of being a corporate paralegal, having a non-attorney around full time is essential for a closing.
Neuro Nerd* July 6, 2018 at 12:41 pm You might consider looking for work with a solo practice or small firm where they don’t produce enough work for a full-time LA/paralegal. (My wife works at one such place, and they recently hired a paralegal who wanted part-time work so she could spend more time with her small child.) It can actually be quite difficult for small practices to find and keep LAs, since most people want full-time positions! The pay may not be what you’re looking for initially, but if you stick around and become indispensable, it could work out, or you could find that the pay drop is worth the improvement in your quality of life. Alternatively, you could consider fulltime work in a less intense environment. A difference in stress levels can make those 40 hours a week a lot less exhausting.
LilySparrow* July 6, 2018 at 5:30 pm As an ex-legal secretary, I agree that you should look at the type of firm and the type of law. Solo practitioners and small partnerships usually offer more flexibility in hours. But the pay and benefits are generally lower as well, unless you get into a very shiny boutique practice with a nice rich clientele. If you are in litigation, domestic relations/family law, or bankruptcy/foreclosure, get out. The stress levels are awful, and they churn clients so there’s always just one massive deadline after another. The best jobs I ever had were in corporate & tax, trusts & estates, and commercial real estate — there’s a bit of a crunch at year-end or if there’s a big deal closing, but the attorneys usually bill at a much cushier rate. That means a more manageable client load, long lead times, and a very predictable work process. The co-workers tend to be much more chill, also. Tax attorneys are more like CPA’s in temperament. Litigators tend to be drama queens.
The Vulture* July 6, 2018 at 2:18 pm I make that much, have very good health insurance and benefits (including significant additional PTO), and work a 35 hour work week – which is the norm for us/what is generally offered to staff here. But I am aware it is somewhat rare/not the norm. If you are exempt/hourly than you can reduce your hours down to 28/week for that much less of your per hour rate, keeping all the benefits and whatnot. So I’d say 35 at least is doable, though you’ll likely have to prioritize that in your search. This is a government agency. We do have legal-type positions and presumably paralegal positions as well. We list the hours and pay on our website with the job posting.
Jules the 3rd* July 6, 2018 at 2:24 pm So, 40hrs / week shouldn’t leave you exhausted all the time. In addition to the other tips here, make sure you visit your doctor and have a full workup, including: – Thyroid – Vitamin D – Maybe sleep apnea screening It would really suck a lot to drop hours / wage and *still* be tired.
NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser* July 6, 2018 at 7:32 pm +1. I had sleep apnea and anemia (at different times). Once I got those items, and my nutrition under control (I was coping with being tired by eating too much sugar and caffeine, which just exacerbated the problem)… it got better. And I got treated for depression and went through therapy. Life changing. It wasn’t the hours (I work more now, but love using my brain). It was everything else.
Epsilon Delta* July 6, 2018 at 3:43 pm I feel you so much on this one. I started out working at an office job about 25-30 hours per week right out of college and it really was the perfect amount for me, except that I could barely make ends meet. I did that for two years. I now work the standard 40+ hours a week and it’s tough. It seriously took at least a year to adjust physically (like I always felt antsy, hard to sit still that long, and I was wiped out after an 8 hour day). Now I am more or less used to it. You don’t say how long you’ve been working full time, but if it has been less than a year maybe see how you feel after a year or so has passed. You could also explore moving your start/end times to be earlier or later. Working 9-5 feels like a longer day to me than working 8-4. If working from home is an option you might try that. A bonus is that you can use your normal commute time to take care of some errands/quick chores, and then they are not looming over you when you get home that night (examples – do the dishes, sweep the floor, run to the post office). I don’t say all this to discourage you (because I totally share your sentiment that 40 hours a week is too much), but to give you options until you can find that 32-hour per week job. I will caution you to expect a lower salary, and probably a less prestigious or less senior role once you find that job though. One more thought. I know that my friends in healthcare have a lot more flexibility in their hours — both total number of hours worked, and also which shifts/days they work, but there always seem to be weekend hours required. They make around that $45,000 per year you mention, and they have benefits if they work 32+ hours per week. Something to consider if you don’t mind changing fields, but I know healthcare is not for everyone.
Bea* July 6, 2018 at 3:45 pm Wow, I’m not sure why you’re not feeling like you will be able to retire or create a college fund on that salary. Unless you’re in one of those high cost living locations where housing is over a thousand for a small studio. You’re in an industry that should have an IRA setup at least. I see why you’re frustrated. I agree that it’s possibly a medical issue. I’ve never known anyone without a labor intensive job or crazy hours to be exhausted after 40hrs. I think if it’s not physical, you may need to think about therapy to work through the exhaustion. Depression can cause that kind of physical drain on us.
A Username For This Site* July 6, 2018 at 4:23 pm So you’re working 40 hours, but how long is your workday (door-to-door)? I’ve had jobs where, 40 hours + commute is exhausting once you factor in prep for work plus commute plus work plus return commute plus unpacking and repacking for work the next day. You say you’re working 40 hours a week, but you have 10 or 11 hours a day spent on work or work-adjacent tasks because you’re constantly rushing to the next “thing” to be ready for work. Evaluate how you’re spending your work-adjacent time, you might be working a lot more than you realize.
Whatsinaname* July 6, 2018 at 4:37 pm It sounds like you’re already not earning enough money to sustain a reasonable middle class standard of living despite a high demand job. Why would you reduce your income even further by reducing your hours? Because it sounds that some of your feelings toward working full time are being driven by the fact that you’re not earning enough money to compensate for the misery of working. Therefore, reducing your hours to earn even less than before, might not be the solution. I have always hated working. I hate it so much that I decided the only thing that would compensate me for that would be to make as much money as possible and get the best benefits that I can get. That has worked pretty well for me. Because the reality is, we all need money to live, we need health insurance, retirement benefits, etc. My advice is to look more long term at where it is you’re trying to go versus finding a short term solution to your misery. Maybe you’re in the wrong career field, maybe it’s your current employer. But it doesn’t really sound like reducing your hours is what’s going to give you what you really need in the long term. Action have consequences, and while you’re still young you’re probably not thinking about retirement and the effect of a reduced income down the line. So, my bottom line advice is to step back and examine what is really causing your unhappiness and address the root cause versus using a band aid approach. And good luck.
Thlayli* July 6, 2018 at 6:59 pm The only 2 ways I can think of are: 1 stick with the 40 hour weeks and move up till you reach a salary of ~ 56k, then drop to 4 days a week for 45k. 2 drop to 4 days a week now for ~36k, then work your way up till you are earning 45k for 4 days a week. Either way, you will have to be good enough to convince your boss that you are worth keeping on for only 4 days a week.
Violet* July 6, 2018 at 8:14 pm Have you considered nursing as a career? Nurses typically work more than 32 hours a week, but they can work fewer days – many hospital nurses work 4 10-hour shifts a week, so they are off 3 days. And honestly, as a nurse you can work as many or as few hours as you want if you do PRN (as needed; they make more money hourly but do not receive benefits). A nurse’s average hourly wage is around $30, which is over $45,000 if you work 32 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. But in some cities nurses can make a lot more than that. If you already have a bachelor’s degree, you can get a nursing degree with 14-18 months of additional schooling in an accelerated BSN program (once you complete the prerequisites). Of course…you have to like nursing.
ManderGimlet* July 6, 2018 at 8:34 pm I am (and have been) in the exact same position you are in and it’s very difficult depending on your field. If you are able to let go of your 32 hours happening between Monday and Friday and during daytime hours, you have a much likelier chance of getting more flexible scheduling. Medical jobs (nursing, xray tech, etc) tend to have very flexible schedules and may be worth going for a certification if it means long-term freedom over your time.
Kate Daniels* July 6, 2018 at 9:08 pm I could’ve written this comment! This work week was great with Wednesday off and I wish it were this way every week. My dream would be able to drop to 80% (and I’d be completely willing to take the 20% pay cut), but I’m working toward loan forgiveness with the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, which requires full-time work to remain eligible. So, sadly, my dose of reality is the fact that I won’t be able to do this for the next nine years.
..Kat..* July 7, 2018 at 4:44 am Can you cut the time you spend doing other things? Job with a shorter commute? Pay someone to clean your home?
Dotty* July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am Does anyone have any tips on maintaining successful friendships at work – I’m a senior manager, friends with a supervisor (Alice) in a completely separate department. Recently she’s shared some concerning things about her manager, Bill. She’s shared with me as a friend, when we’ve gone on lunch – but I equally can’t ignore what she’s shared. That’s a separate minefield! But I need to reinsert some kind of boundaries into our friendship but is a “no work talk ever” realistic?
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 12:30 pm I’d just talk to Alice and let her know that general work talk is fine, but if you hear something concerning, you will need to _____ [whatever the appropriate action is for you to take]. It gives her a heads up; she needs to be the one in control of what she chooses to tell you, but it’s fair to let her know what you may need to do with certain information so she can make that choice. It’s also okay (I believe) to gently interrupt someone with a “I’m sorry; I’m not comfortable hearing this about Bill because [reasons]. Can we change the subject?” It depends a lot on what she’s sharing with you. Is it conduct that needs to be reported to HR or will it just make you look at Bill differently?
amethyst* July 6, 2018 at 11:16 am Ethics of resigning when your boss is about to return from holiday? Timing-wise I need to do it ASAP… but I don’t want to be That Person.
Graciosa* July 6, 2018 at 11:29 am The most important rule is that you provide adequate professional notice (2 week minimum). You don’t need to apologize for that. Reasonable managers understand that Stuff Happens, and sometimes while we’re on vacation. Part of the reason we’re paid more is to compensate for the different nature of the job. That said, you can look at other options your manager has put in place during her absence. I once had an employee provide notice to my manager while I was out on vacation, which was absolutely fine. The tone was definitely “Graciosa is on vacation and I’m not sure I should disturb her for this, but I wanted to provide appropriate notice to the company,” and my boss just matter-of-factly took care of the things I would have had to do (notify HR, put in a replacement req, etc.). I can also see going directly to HR – or calling the boss on vacation. Or sending an email and copying either or both of the potential alternates, with proper apologies in the email for her being on vacation. I would have been fine with any of the above, but you know your boss’ preferences best and probably have an idea of her relationship with her boss. If you do something reasonable to get notice in promptly, you don’t have to apologize for it. I presume you did not set out to get another job just for the pleasure of having an excuse to ring your boss while she’s out (and even if you did, no one will ever know unless you say so!). Accepting notice is just a normal part of her job – get over the guilt.
CAA* July 6, 2018 at 11:35 am If you can, wait until your boss returns and then give 2 weeks notice (assuming you are in the U.S. and don’t have other contractual requirements). If waiting would mean giving less than 2 weeks, then you either call your boss while she’s on vacation, send her an email if you know she’ll see it, or tender your resignation to the person who is above her in the hierarchy or HR. It depends on your relationship with your boss and how you think she’d want to hear it. You can apologize for the poor timing but don’t wait to communicate if that means you’ll be giving less than 2 weeks notice.
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 11:48 am I think when you tell your boss depends on their personality. Some managers will want to know ASAP while other managers will want an uninterrupted vacation. I assume that the timing is ASAP because you have another offer, so if you don’t email your boss now, schedule a time on their first day back in the office so that you can let them know. This doesn’t have to be long, and if their schedule is exceptionally packed, keep it as short as possible to notify them, and establish a time to meet again to review a list of your current projects and how you will transition them. I would soften it using language like, “I know this isn’t the best timing as you’re just back from holiday” to acknowledge the inconvenience without saying “I’m sorry” or offering to extend your timeline. Remember that employees coming and going is part of doing business so you should stay firm with whatever YOUR desired timeline is, especially if your next job has already set a start date. And give your boss time/space to take in that information. Just because they don’t immediately congratulate you on your new position doesn’t mean that they’re upset, just that they’re adjusting and considering their next steps.
amethyst* July 6, 2018 at 12:20 pm Thanks for the tips everyone! I’ve put in a meeting request with my boss for the first day she’s back. I think face-to-face would work better for us.
Mikasa Ackerman* July 6, 2018 at 11:16 am I just graduated with my B.S in Accounting in May. I did not have a job lined up like everyone else, so I’m still looking. I sent in my CPA exam application to the CBA, and I am about to buy a review course. I hope I can make myself more marketable. ($3,000 for all this *cries*) Does anyone have any tips when it comes to the CPA exam and looking for work? I’m so worried I won’t meet the experience requirement. Do you think the CPA exam was worth it? How did you network to get in with a firm? P.S. Thank you to those who gave advice on my anxiety in school when I thought I wouldn’t even make it to graduation. I did it!
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm The CPA is an honored credential and will open many doors for you! I can’t give you any tips on taking it, other than to prepare prepare prepare! But you will never regret it once you have it!
imanaccountant* July 6, 2018 at 12:46 pm CPA Here – it’s been more years since I’ve taken the exams than I’d like to admit…. 1) work experience: I would apply for any job that has a 1-3 years experience range. Some of this will be market dependent, mine is super competitive for candidates, so employers will basically take what they can get. 2) Where to apply: I would apply mid-size local/regional firms, and any corporate posting you come across. Just make sure your supervisor is a CPA, otherwise you can’t get certified. 3) Resume: Change it to say “CPA eligible” this way as you pass parts of the exam, you can talk about that in an interview. 4) Exam: This test is not hard, it just contains an inhuman amount of information, it’s just a numbers game of how much time you can dedicate to drilling multiple choice questions. 5) Was it worth it – yes absolutely, all of the higher paying jobs require a CPA. I’m happily settled into my career and making 6 figures, a salary I would never be able to command without my CPA. I’m under 30.
Mikasa Ackerman* July 6, 2018 at 3:27 pm Thank you so much for the advice! The exam bullet point makes me feel better. I have two internships. One at a small tax firm (mom and pop) and one at a bank in the compliance department. I was at both for 4 months each, so I don’t have a year. I’m worried it’s not enough, but I’m trying to make it sound good.
Former Retail Manager* July 6, 2018 at 1:32 pm The CPA is well worth it. Definitely do it and don’t be discouraged if you fail a section or 2 (or 4)….just study some more and try again. As for experience, this really depends on what you want to do. If you don’t already have a job, I am assuming that you are not interested in Big 4. If you want to get some experience and work while studying, and money is not super important, I’d suggest trying to start with a smaller firm. They pay less, but there is also less stress, they tend not to mind that you don’t already have your CPA, and you can often get some pretty good mentoring/one-on-one help (occasionally) from someone with decades of experience. You mention being worried about not making it to graduation, so I am assuming that your GPA is not a 4.0. Again, small firms don’t tend to care too much about this. Also, don’t rule out Government positions or corporate. Best of luck! You can do it! And congrats on graduation!
Mikasa Ackerman* July 6, 2018 at 3:37 pm I wasn’t interested in Big 4 at first, but now I feel it would be one of the best ways to meet the 1-year experience requirement. It would cover everything I need. But I truly would like to work for the government, preferably the city. That was always my goal. I graduated with a 3.896. It used to be 3.93, until audit class. I was so scared I would fail that class. Good idea to look at smaller firms while studying. I’m looking at temp agencies, like Accountempts, too. Thank you for the motivation! You pumped me up! I feel like Rocky when he’s training haha
MissCPA* July 6, 2018 at 3:09 pm Congrats! I took an internship even though I hadn’t wanted to and then was offered a full-time job afterwards at a large firm (not Big4 but close) and they paid for my review course. I used Becker and it definitely over-prepared me for the exam. As for where to apply, I’d recommend a more local or regional CPA firm to get some experience in public as, IMO, it’s the best place to launch your career. After 5 years in public I made a fantastic switch to private and actually got a raise in doing so. I was lucky that my job allowed me to study at work if I had nothing else to do, but I managed to pass a couple sections while working full-time, so it is totally do-able. I was very nervous for my first test, but it was not really as bad as I had planned for. Just do all your homework and take a practice exam and you will do just fine! Congrats!!!!
Mikasa Ackerman* July 6, 2018 at 3:41 pm I wish I knew about Big 4 and internships when I was at community college. It wasn’t till I transferred that everyone was talking about it. It’s so cool that you got a full-time offer! Thank you for the advice to keep looking in public. Everyone says Big 4 is the only way to go, but I just want to meet that experience requirement. It would stink to pay thousands for the exam and then not get the right experience. Thank you for the great advice!
imanaccountant* July 6, 2018 at 3:56 pm If this helps your decision making process – Big4 offers a 5K bonus for passing your exams.
ronda* July 6, 2018 at 5:32 pm I took the exam shortly after college and took a review course before. I found it helpful in motivating me to do all the studying and practice stuff. But if you are a person who likes to do self-study that might work better for you. I did work in industry instead of for a CPA firm, so when I finally applied for the license (I think maybe it required 7 yrs of industry experience in my state) my bosses had changed and I actually had to get a different manager in the department to sign off for me. He gave me a little bit of trouble about it, but knew me enough to agree to do it after I talked to him for a while. So being at a CPA firm is probably going to be the easiest way to get the license going. — but there is not just the big 4 — the small firms would be able to do it in the shorter timeframe too. Once you have the licence…. the continuing professional education requirements kick-in. I did finally give up my license cause I didnt do the education requirement and the job I do now does not require the CPA
HKM* July 6, 2018 at 11:16 am I have just been assigned to a new project. On my previous one, I had three direct reports, and we did a great job together. Unfortunately, I cannot take any of them to my new project, and my new report has been assigned to it for a while. This new report seems great, but she keeps asking me if I’ve done things and requesting information from me – like we’ve swapped roles. I know I’m new to the project and I’m not asking for deference but how do I address this? I also have a bit of imposter syndrome – my bosses told me they wanted me on this new project becauae of how well my last one did but I just feel completely out of my depth and like I’m about to let the company down at any moment. It might be that I’m unsure and overwhelmed so she’s just doing what she’s used to.
K VonSchmidt* July 6, 2018 at 12:00 pm HKM, you can do this! As your bosses said, you did a great job before. As far as your new report, maybe set the tone by setting boundaries. So say you’re only open to take questions at a meeting time that you schedule. This way you’re controlling the setting and delivery. Run it like a project meeting, and push back if it’s something your report can do.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 2:27 pm Maybe the two of you can just talk a little bit about stuff you have done, that way you will each have a better foundation to talk to each other. It sounds like she is not sure of your background and does not want to be an assuming jerk about things.
Bex* July 6, 2018 at 3:02 pm Are your report’s tasks dependent on things from your workstream? Or is she asking for info so that she can do her work? I don’t really see anything there that needs to be addressed, unless her requests are rude or somehow egregious
Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want* July 6, 2018 at 11:17 am I am tired of job postings not listing a salary range, and as of yesterday have decided to not apply for any jobs like that. On a related note, I got a callback for a job interview yesterday – after doing a bit of research, it seems that it’s highly unlikely that this job will pay enough. My minimum is 30k – jobs similar to this one pay 25K or less for entry level. Should I cancel the interview? I want to ask directly how much the salary would be right now, but I know that’s a no-no. On the other hand, I don’t want to waste time preparing for an interview that probably won’t go anywhere.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 11:20 am If you’re willing to forego the interview if the salary isn’t enough, then it may be worth asking up front even though it’s not the norm. Maybe instead of asking them for their range, which could be taken the wrong way, you could say that you’re looking for a range around $30k and does that fit with what they envision for this role?
Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want* July 6, 2018 at 11:28 am That’s a great way to phrase it, thanks!
BF50* July 6, 2018 at 6:17 pm This is what I did during my last job hunt. I said it wasn’t worth missing work to interview unless the pay was in the range of $X. I was offered $X+$3k. Doing that does limit your negotiation abilities later in the process. If you said you were looking for a range of $30k, it’s a lot harder to ask for $35k, so you need to have done your research and be comfortable that you are not undervaluing yourself.
Ali G* July 6, 2018 at 12:02 pm Man if I didn’t apply to any jobs that had no posted salary I would have nothing to apply to! I think I’ve seen maybe 3? Typically the ones that do list ranges are too low for me, anyway. It’s so annoying, especially because I get interest and then as soon as salary comes up is like radio silence. One thing I really don’t understand is how employers think they can pay someone like $30k a year in one of the most expensive areas of the country in 2018. When I was just coming out of grad school in 2003 I was making $40k at entry level. So, all things being equal, an entry level position similar to mine in 2003 should be paying at least $55k. It’s super annoying to apply, get a phone interview and then find out they only want to pay less than I was making 15 years ago.
Anonymosity* July 6, 2018 at 2:41 pm Tell me about it. If I can’t make enough to save up, I can’t move to a place with more/better jobs–but nothing pays enough here for me to save up. And then I job search where I want to go, but they’re not paying much better. How does anyone live, even with roommates? Which I am too old for, btw.
MissGirl* July 6, 2018 at 12:14 pm The vast majority of job postings don’t list salary range. The previous interviews I’ve went on a range was brought up in the first contact. By not applying, you’re only hurting yourself and could be losing out on a great opportunity. Sounds like you’re entry level and at the stage you really don’t have the clout to push back on this. It’s frustrating and they should list it but that’s the way it is. At least apply and then perhaps ask if there’s a range in the interview stage.
Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want* July 6, 2018 at 1:07 pm It just seems like a lost cause because only once so far has the employer brought up salary up front. The other times, they try to pull a “what salary range are you looking for” during the interview, and subsequently end up ghosting me when I tell them my minimum. I would rather not go through the stress of prepping for an interview when my experience so far tells me that it’s not worth it.
MissGirl* July 6, 2018 at 1:49 pm That’s interviewing. There’s no getting around it. Both sides will have to go through part of the process until either gets to a ‘no’. Both sides expend time. Every interview is “worth it” if you look at it from the standpoint of practice and gaining experience. The more you do this, the less stressful each will become. I get how frustrating it is, but until you’re higher level you don’t have the clout to push back on this. I’m ten years in, and I still have to go through the same process.
OperaArt* July 6, 2018 at 1:36 pm In California, a new rule went into effect this year: “An employer, upon reasonable request, shall provide the pay scale for a position to an applicant applying for employment.” I don’t know if you’re here, but if you are, this might be useful to you. Also, as part of the same law potential employers may not ask about your previous salaries.
Woah Nelly* July 6, 2018 at 11:17 am Removed. Please stop wasting people’s time here. (This is from someone who keeps submitting fake scenarios.)
Ali G* July 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm I second actual phobia therapy, if it hasn’t been done already. Phobias are different than just anxiety issues. There are people out there trained to work through a phobia and help you deal with it. I saw a phobia therapist when I suddenly developed crippling anxiety while flying, and I had to fly a lot for my job. I’m not fixed, but I am able to fly now without having a total meltdown.
Woah Nelly* July 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm We deal with clients and vendors and customers so the hours are set and we can’t adjust or flex them because we need to be available to provide support. We all have to start and leave at the same time, even the managers. The company is not eligible for FMLA and I asked about getting time off but it would be unpaid and I can’t afford to do it. Our cubes are not the kind that can have doors. Two of the walls are about 5 feet high and the other two are 2.5/3 feet. The walls are made of fabric. I can’t see the dog or the person with the dog because of the cube walls already. I asked my boss about the vacation time thing but my boss doesn’t manage him and doesn’t know when he is off. She said she can’t tell me anything about his work schedule because I wanted to take my PTO after him for that reason but she couldn’t tell me anything. I appreciate that you answered and tried to help.
Ask a Manager* Post authorJuly 6, 2018 at 12:10 pm Just to clarify — if the allergies rose to ADA-protection, they’d be protected too; someone else’s accommodations wouldn’t trump them just because their condition was more serious. The company would be required to enter into an interactive process with both people to find a solution.
Susan Sto Helit* July 6, 2018 at 12:17 pm Yes, I worded it poorly. My assumption was that while all reasonable efforts would be made to make accommodation, getting rid of the dog would just not be something that would be on the table – because for the co-worker, that’s not reasonable. I may be entirely wrong about that though!
Detective Amy Santiago* July 6, 2018 at 12:27 pm That was my assumption as well, but I suppose it’s a moot point since it was a fake scenario. Some people have too much time on their hands.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 11:18 am Thoughts on hiring in a tiny company with less diversity than desired? We’re 15 people, and while we’ve rarely been an all white company, we typically only have 1 or 2 minorities on staff (right now there is 1). We’d like to increase diversity, but we also don’t want to reject our top candidates just because they’re white and the 2nd choice isn’t. We’ve run into this a few times over the past few years: we attract a diverse candidate set and have a good mix for interviews, but the top candidate is always significantly better and not a minority. How can we balance out being fair while still increasing diversity when this happens?
Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want* July 6, 2018 at 11:27 am I don’t mean to be…I don’t know, but as a person of color looking for jobs for the first time, 3 out of 5 of my interview callbacks so far have been other people of color – and it’s not like I’m applying in particularly diverse areas. Leaving anecdotes aside, studies show that people with ‘ethnic names’ are less likely to get callbacks. What I’m trying to say is, it’s really unlikely that your top candidates all happen to be white. Unconcious biases always affect the hiring process.
Arielle* July 6, 2018 at 11:37 am This. If the applicants are diverse but the “best” candidate is always white, I would encourage the OP to evaluate how they’re defining “significantly better” and whether biases might play into how they’re defining a good candidate.
Leena Wants Cake* July 6, 2018 at 11:50 am This is a great point. A lot of the usual markers of candidate “quality” (schools attended, prior jobs and internships held, cultural “fit”, etc. are those that routinely privilege white (and sometimes, male) candidates over people of color who might be just as capable of performing the same job. Maybe find alternate methods to assess the qualities that you need in a good candidate?
Violet* July 6, 2018 at 8:19 pm I came to say the same thing. You may need to broaden your definition of what “best” or “top qualities” are, particularly if your field is a white-dominated one that historically has trouble attracting minorities.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 11:51 am This is definitely what I’m afraid of, but I’m not entirely certain how to address it. The top candidate isn’t always white, but that’s frequently the case. I can’t vouch for every hiring process we’ve had, but the past few times this has occurred, I do feel like the top candidate was the better option due to specific skills we were looking for or something that was said in the interview. The last hire we had was not white, but prior to that our top candidate was a minority and our 2nd choice was white. However, during the final interview our top choice stated that she was only going to be around for another year or less and would need to move on. 2nd choice was a very close 2nd, so that was the decision. The time before that our top candidate was far and away better than everyone else who applied in education, experience, performed amazing on the skills test, interviewed well, etc. I can’t shake the feel that there IS some bias somewhere, but I guess I’m struggling with how to pinpoint it? For the record, I don’t participate in every hiring process, but I do oversee the process so I’m able to review everything that’s going on and can intervene if necessary.
Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want* July 6, 2018 at 1:25 pm A good way to help alleviate the problem is to have someone remove the names and addresses from the tops of resumes before sending them to the hiring manager. Also, maybe hiring managers should be given some training on what constitutes a top candidate. For example, are you viewing someone with a degree from Howard or Morehouse as less qualified compared to someone with a degree from a predominantly white ‘elite’ school? Are you viewing someone who does relevant work in your city’s Hispanic community center as less qualified than someone who does the same work elsewhere?
straws* July 6, 2018 at 7:21 pm I’ve been looking into ways to remove names/addresses. We use an online collection system for resumes, so it’s frequently in digital pdf format and stored in a location where all of the hiring team can access. This thread already has me starting down a path of figuring out how to “game” that system though, so I’m hoping I can come up with something that will work for everyone by the next time we hire! We don’t weigh education very heavily, so that has probably helped us, and if anything community work is seen as a positive for everyone that’s been on our hiring teams lately, regardless of what kind. But, these are definitely things to look out for, so they’re added to my list.
Ann O.* July 6, 2018 at 4:57 pm I’m not sure there is clear bias if the top candidate for 2 out of the 3 of your last hires have been PoC. I don’t want to give you absolution and say to stop thinking about this because you absolutely should continue thinking about this, but is it possible your staffing issues are a legacy of starting as a non-diverse small company? If so, that may take time to significantly address unless you’re planning a growth spurt… how much turnover can there be in a 15 person company? And a bit of a tangent, but if you’re not already doing this, I’d encourage you to also look at retention rates. The wording in your original post suggests change in who those 1-2 PoC on staff have been. Are you losing your PoC hires at a faster rate than your non-PoC hires? If so, there may be issues with company culture that you can address on that front.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 7:30 pm These are some really good points. Our company was started by a group of (non-diverse) friends, and initially there was a lot of referrals and friends coming on board. Mostly due to low pay. Now that we’re able to pay at a more decent rate, we do have some catching up to do. Hopefully having a diverse pool of top candidates is a sign that we’re going in the right direction. You’re correct that we don’t have a lot of turnover. When we do, it’s at low-t0-mid levels and generally because of the difficulty of moving up at a small company. We’re very open about this, so it’s almost always on good terms and with a lot of well wishes. I don’t think that there’s a faster “leave rate” with our PoC hires, but I’m going to take a fresh look at some of the retention stats. I do think that we’re pretty lucky with our current staff in the company culture area. While there’s broad range of political beliefs, I’ve never seen or heard anything that indicates racist beliefs or leanings from anyone.
Violet* July 6, 2018 at 8:31 pm I’m a woman of color who works in tech. Retention isn’t all about overt racist or discriminatory beliefs, though; it’s about a culture and feeling of belongingness vs. one where you feel ostracized or like an outsider. It’s a VERY difficult thing to see/think about/feel if you aren’t a person of color, so I don’t blame you at all. It can be things like: -At least initially, wondering what my coworkers think/how they will react of my natural hair (or also, getting endless questions about it) -Maintaining my ‘code’ of standard English and living in fear of accidentally slipping into vernacular English, and/or wondering what coworkers will think if I do -Being the only person of color in the room every. single. time. (including many of the industry events and networking mixers and such that I go to). Being highly visible is stressful! -When race is discussed in the room, having everyone swivel around to look at me -Going to a karaoke morale event and feeling oddly left out because I don’t know much of the music they are singing, and they don’t know any of my favorites -Looking up and noticing that there aren’t (m)any role models for me in the senior levels of my company (not even just not a woman of color, which I don’t expect, but even many women. Or people of color. At all.) -In my city, having to look really hard to find a community of people who share my culture None of these are overtly racist or even racist at all; they’re byproducts of being the only one or one of a very few, but they are stressful and wear on you over time. I love my job and my city and even I have had thoughts about leaving because of the sense of isolation I often have being the only woman of color. That’s how you could potentially have a cultural issue that affects retention while still having a really excellent staff. A place has to be deliberately inclusive, not just avoid being exclusive.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 9:27 pm Your whole post outlines one of the biggest struggles that we do and/or will have. Obviously it’s important to make sure that we’re not being unconsciously biased somehow. But even if I can confirm that we’re not and improve how we advertise ourselves, we’re still a tiny company of mostly white people. Short of a major growth spurt (which, while nice, isn’t expected) or replacing half of the company, any person of color that we hire has to overcome what you’ve outlined. So even though we’re a very welcoming & open company and I want to make sure that comes across in any job postings, every candidate is still going to walk into most of the interviews to sit down with white interviewers. So that’s one of the hurdles that I’ll need to address. On the bright side, gender equality hasn’t been an issue for us. At times women have outnumbered men, and our senior staff is equally weighted across gender and age. So we at least don’t have the “old white men club” vibe going on.
Thlayli* July 6, 2018 at 7:26 pm It sounds like the sample size is tiny – with only 2 or 3 hires, the fact that the person who eventually ended up being hired was always white is not statistically significant – you would need a much larger number of hires to have evidence of implicit bias. I’m Assuming your American? Consider this: 62% of the population of America is white, so if you just randomly pulled names out of a hat containing the names of every American, there’s a 24% chance the first three you pull out would all be white (0.62 x 0.62 x 0.62). Since you mention education, you are probably looking at degree-educated people. Sadly, the gap in educational achievement between white and non-whites is huge in the states. I couldn’t find exact numbers but it’s fair to say that pulling names out of a hat containing all the degree-educated Americans, there’s a pretty high chance you’d get 2-3 white people in a row. Which is all to say, the racism is endemic. It’s not the fault of your hiring practices. It’s the fault of history and society. You shouldn’t assume your hiring practices are racist just because you happen to have had 2-3 white hires in a row. Especially since you say the best person for one of the jobs was non-white but essentially took themselves out of the running by telling you they were going to leave shortly. All you can do is continue to try to attract diverse candidates, and stay vigilant against unconscious bias. I believe in America It is currently illegal to intentionally hire a non-white person above a white person, if the white person is more qualified. “affirmative action” like that was legal Once upon s time but isn’t now.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 7:40 pm These are valid points. I don’t necessarily think there’s racism at play in our hiring practices, but I do want to make sure we’re doing everything we can to be inclusive. I think Ann O. hit the core of the issue above. We have a legacy that we need to overcome, and I don’t want to leave it to chance that we successfully overcome it. Without a major growth spurt, that will be more difficult, but there are some great ideas from people to do just what you said: attract diverse candidate and stay vigilant against bias. Those are things that I can do, and having some new angles, ideas, and tools to apply is very exciting!
Violet* July 6, 2018 at 8:36 pm Respectfully, some of what you’re saying is true, but the meat of it is a often a cop-out reply that large companies in non-diverse industries use to explain/excuse their hiring practices. It’s true that there are systemic issues that contribute to disparities in hiring (college education being one), but it’s not true that all of those issues are systemic and that there’s nothing individual companies can do to counteract that, other than vaguely ‘trying to attract more diverse candidates.’ Even that needs some unpacking – what, exactly, are companies doing to attract more diverse candidates? I worked with a company once on this issue and found that they were making a lot of assumptions that their minority candidates had the exact same needs and goals as their non-minority candidates, and that was actually preventing them from hiring and retaining minority candidates. Other companies aren’t really doing much besides maybe editing the pictures on their website. Staying vigilant against unconscious bias also goes deep. Lots of people have already commented on this broadly – that may mean revising your definition if “qualified” or “qualifications,” or making sure that all of the people in your hiring chain are thinking broadly.
Washi* July 6, 2018 at 11:40 am I obviously don’t know much about your company, but some thoughts: 1. Do you use any kind of hiring exercise for top candidates, or just interviews? People have an unconscious tendency to gravitate toward people like themselves, and sometimes with just interviews, you can end up liking a candidate based on that, even though another candidate might have similar technical ability. 2. Do your job requirements in the ad line up with what the job actually requires? (classic example is requiring a BA when the degree isn’t that important.) 3. Is the language itself in your job posting maybe turning off applicants? (I know you say you have a diverse pool, but it sounds like it needs to be even less skewed white) See: https://business.linkedinDOTcom/talent-solutions/blog/job-descriptions/2018/5-must-dos-for-writing-inclusive-job-descriptions 4. Are you putting a lot of weight on referrals? White people tend to have predominantly white networks, and that will continue to skew your hiring if you are overly reliant on referrals.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 7:15 pm This article is great, thank you! We do use exercises, rarely include education as a requirement, and referrals are accepted but not weighted heavily. The latter was a prior practice that we dropped years ago, which I think has helped us in many ways.
Cat Herder* July 7, 2018 at 12:06 am Can you work to bring in more POC candidates? Where are you posting the job ad? For instance, if you have an entry level position, are you sending it to career centers at nearby HBCUs? Have you reached out to these career centers to offer internships or externships? possibilities are professional organizations for POC, for example, Society of Black Engineers.
Countess Boochie Flagrante* July 6, 2018 at 11:44 am If you’re noticing this as a pattern, it might be worth considering if there’s some bias going into your assessment of candidates. Is your (white) #1 choice really always that much better than your (non-white) #2 choice? Sure, it’s possible, but the more times that’s the pattern coming out of your hiring process, the more suspect it is.
Admin of Sys* July 6, 2018 at 12:02 pm (I’m operating under the assumption that you’ve done your best to compensate for internal biases and such) Any person you think of hiring has more traits than just the specific skill set you are looking for. If you are hiring a technical expert in, idk, sql database work, but the best skilled person doesn’t have the communication skills you are looking for, you might pick someone who is not quite as good at the dba bits but seems to have a better chance at explaining their needs to programmers. Similarly, if you might pick a project manager that is gregarious and outgoing because that fits your company culture best. As such, if you value diversity and the ideas and advantages that a diverse work culture brings, that’s just as important of a factor to consider as specific skills.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 7:13 pm This is a really good way of thinking about it. I think I struggled a bit with making race a quality, even though it was positive. Re-framing it to have diversity as a company value that we’re striving toward is a better angle to approach it from. It also works well for phrasing company goals.
Lucky* July 6, 2018 at 12:21 pm A few things I heard at a conference for diversity in legal hiring recently (and that some of the replies below/above have noted): If you aren’t getting enough diversity in candidates, you can reach out to professional or student organizations for POC and have them list your job on their job boards. When reviewing resumes, don’t give so much credit to internships, especially if you’re in a field where these are low or non-paid. Do give credit (esp. for new graduates/younger candidates) for prior work experience outside of your field. If your pool is large enough, make sure you have at least 2 candidates who are POC in your interview group. Some study (don’t have the citation) showed that if there is only 1 “diverse” candidate among white men/women, that candidate will not get chosen. If there are 2, 1 has a better chance. (Not just statistically, but I don’t recall the details). Use some white-out tape and cover the names on the resumes/cover letters before you review/send them to the committee for review.
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 1:09 pm +1 for reaching out to professional/student orgs for POC! I’d also ask how visible the non-white people are in your org. I am white, but I’m sure it can feel really alienating to go into a professional setting where it seems like you’d be the only person of color there. Comparing sexuality to race is apples to oranges, but as a queer person, I know I gravitate more toward organizations that seem to have other queer folks! Nobody wants to feel like the token minority.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 7:10 pm This is great. We’re located near a university, and while we advertise many jobs on the student job boards, I’ll have to see what other organizations are available to reach out to directly. We use an online system to gather resumes that is accessible to anyone on the hiring team, but I already have some ideas to “game” the online system and potentially reduce any bias from names.
Violet* July 6, 2018 at 8:39 pm +1 for reaching out to professional/student organizations for people of color. Since you say that you’re nearby a university, you might even go a step further than just listing the jobs and have someone from your company speak to a student group there or host a mixer for the students to come and visit your company and meet your coworkers. Those connections tend to run deep, and once you’ve got a few students who belonged to those orgs at least connected to you, they can often refer others.
pleaset* July 6, 2018 at 12:23 pm Don’t rely on word or mouth or your existing networks to recruit – that will perpetuate the problem. Instead, reach out more aggressively to sources with more minorities. Also, what TTGTAMPW said – check for unconscious biases.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 7:36 pm Thankfully, relying on referrals was done away with a while ago. There are some great suggestions for where to reach out to on this thread, so I’m excited to branch out when we have our next recruitment effort.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 2:11 pm My day just exploded, but there’s some amazing feedback here. Some of it we’re already doing, which is extremely encouraging, and I’m excited to go through the rest and make a list to apply to our next hiring process. Thank you to all who responded!
Tea, please* July 6, 2018 at 4:43 pm When I was doing a lot of hiring and needed to hire a diverse staff because we were serving a diverse population, I had to rethink my expectations and see the experience of someone who is non-white (and for some industries–not male) as its own value add. I remember when the iPad came out, there were a lot of jokes that if a woman was on the team, it wouldn’t have had that name. Or when there is a racist graphic tee produced by a clothing company. Working with a diverse group of people, I’m constantly happily surprised about hearing about the different ways people think about things or solutions presented because of the different backgrounds. When you are surrounded by people who come from similar socio-economic, racial, ethnic, ability, gender identity, sexual orientation, etc backgrounds–it becomes an echo chamber that reinforces the idea of one common, valid experience as opposed to respecting the range of life experiences. I wonder if there was a way that you could ask interview questions to get at this. You are probably are already asking about problem solving skills. But there is a next step–like if there is something unique you bring to the table and how that helps you solve problems or gives you a different perspective (give an example of this). This needs to be a question asked of everyone and not in a way that it is clearly pointed at minority candidates.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 7:32 pm I love these question ideas. They could start some really interesting discussions across the board.
Jennifer Thneed* July 6, 2018 at 5:32 pm The single biggest thing: where are you advertising your positions? If you’re just doing “the usual”, perhaps do unusual things? There are professional associations for many professions, right? And there are also Black professional associations, Latinx professional associations, Indian professional associations, etc. Ditto Chambers of Commerce, and fraternal organizations. Try reaching out to those in your area or state, for (a) advertising platforms, like maybe their newsletters, and (b) advice on recruiting. Good luck, from a middle-aged white lady who dislikes working in all-white environments
medium of ballpoint* July 6, 2018 at 7:30 pm And you can also emphasize in your posting that diversity is a value, minorities are welcome to apply, etc. I’m a POC and language like that can sway me if I’m on the fence about submitting an application.
straws* July 6, 2018 at 7:33 pm This is really helpful to hear. Despite some of our appearances, we’re a very open and accepting group of people. Working that into our job postings could have a number of positive effects on the candidates we receive.
Chaordic One* July 6, 2018 at 8:40 pm Think about the different roles that your employer has and the kind of people who traditionally fill them. While it is very common for top management jobs to be filled with older white men, what about the lower-level clerical jobs? Sometimes it can shake things up and be a good thing to hire some older white men for those kinds of jobs.
Triple Anon* July 7, 2018 at 12:02 am I would place more emphasis on the candidates’ current skills and less on where they went to school and what jobs they held in the past. So that means their portfolio, skills-related interview questions, and maybe including an activity in the interview, or having them answer some questions along with their application (“You notice X bug. What are the most likely causes and what would you do to fix it?” for example). Another thought. From what I’ve seen, white males are more likely to exaggerate their skills whereas everyone else tends to be more humble. Obviously it’s hard to tell on an individual basis, but that’s something to consider when you’re looking at resumes.
Anon today* July 7, 2018 at 1:02 am Is race/color the only metric you’re using for diversity? If so, consider broadening your goals. Are you comfortable with your gender ratio? What’s the age span (youngest employee vs. oldest) in your company? Do most of you come from the same or similar colleges or universities? Other things to consider are peoples’ background–class, region/country of origin, etc. All of these things contribute to a diverse group of workers, and can make your company a more open place to work.
Small but Fierce* July 6, 2018 at 11:19 am I just left my second job of only 9 months to follow my old manager to a promotion to a completely new function with our parent company. While it’s considered an internal move, I know the duration doesn’t look great. On top of that, I just found out that my husband is up for two major promotions, either of which would take him out of state. If this happens, I will have barely been at this company a year. My first job was only a year and 10 months. Do I already look like a job hopper? I know there’s some wiggle room since I’m young, but I’m concerned that I might have started my job history on a bad foot. Also, any advice for trying to convince my manager to let me work remotely if the time comes? Thanks!
LadyByTheLake* July 6, 2018 at 11:47 am Movement within an organization isn’t regarded as job-hopping, it is regarded as progress.
Foreign Octopus* July 6, 2018 at 11:58 am LadyByTheLake – nice phrase. I feel Alison should have this embroidered on tea towels :)
HA2* July 6, 2018 at 12:14 pm A transition within the same company doesn’t make you look like a job hopper. When making a resume, list them both under ParentCompany, with bullet points for the different functions.
Small but Fierce* July 6, 2018 at 12:41 pm Thanks all! I think part of my concern is that the new function is completely different. Marketing to vendor management. If we move as early as I think, I’ll only have been in this new role for a few months. I’d love to work remotely, but I’m so new to this function that I doubt it would work. So basically I’d be with company A for 1.75 years and company B for only a year before looking for a new role.
Jules the 3rd* July 6, 2018 at 2:31 pm According AAM, it’s the *third* short-term job that would make you look like a hopper. So for your next position, work hard to find someplace you can stay with for at least three years. Most roles ‘settle in’ within six months – ask if you can work remotely, and if you or they think you need a little more time to get everything down, maybe you could stay behind for a month or so.
Small but Fierce* July 6, 2018 at 4:40 pm Unfortunately, I’m currently in my third job. I explained it below. That said, I will definitely stay in the role if they let me.
Evil HR Person* July 6, 2018 at 3:56 pm The best way is to put it like this on your resume (format as you wish): – Llama Groomers, Inc. (parent company of Llama Buddies) – August 2017 to Present – Llama Buddies – January 2015 to August 2017 Then, you can mention in the cover letter that while you were working with Llama Buddies, the parent company offered you an exciting position, etc.
Small but Fierce* July 6, 2018 at 4:36 pm I think I may have explained this poorly. I’m on my third job in less than 3 years. Unfortunately, company A is not affiliated with company B. Also, it’s not a clear promotion on paper, but it was a job grade increase. So it currently looks like this: Company B – Corporate Vendor Management Specialist July 2018 to Present Company B – Subsidiary Marketing Specialist September 2017 – Juky 2018 Company A Marketing Coordinator December 2015 – September 2017
Overworked and Underpaid* July 6, 2018 at 11:19 am I share an office with a coworker. They are about the same level as I am, but in a different department so it doesn’t exactly equate. I’ve noticed they use the word “seen” incorrectly pretty much every time they are describing something that they saw happen (such as, “I seen him come into the office” instead of “I saw him come into the office”). Although it’s been annoying, I haven’t mentioned anything about their grammar because it typically happens in personal conversations. However, they recently were reading out an email they were going to send to the chair of our board of directors (so that I could provide feedback) and started out with “I just seen this email.” I didn’t correct them because I didn’t want to seem superior (and because I used to correct them a lot on things when they first started so I’m trying to hold back). Should this be something I point out in the future?
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 11:25 am I think that’s an occasion where you can. It’s a communication with the higher ups and it’s in advance of its actually being sent. “I noticed a glitch in the second sentence, where it says ‘I seen’ but I think it should be ‘I have seen.’ Just in case you want a quick tweak before it goes out.”
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 1:07 pm I agree. My boss and I read each other’s stuff often. We have an on-going conversation of “did I miss anything, does this sound clear?”. Perhaps you can work into a back and forth thing. If you don’t trust him to proof read maybe you can trust him to see if the writing sounds logical and say if most people would be able to follow along. In my mind, if someone asks me to read something they want me to catch their mistakes for them. It’s a compliment and a position of trust. “Don’t let me make a jerk of myself.” If people don’t want that type of help they usually say so very quickly. Then I’d ask, “So why am I reading this?”
BlueWolf* July 6, 2018 at 11:37 am Oh man, the “I seen” has always made me cringe. I agree with fposte that it is definitely something you should mention if they are specifically asking for your feedback on a professional email.
fromscratch* July 6, 2018 at 11:52 am Grammarly is a really great tool for this sort of thing. It is free and will offer spellcheck and grammar check on anything typed in a web browser. Maybe drop it into the conversation – as in, “I tried it this thing and loved it, thought I would share!”
whistle* July 6, 2018 at 11:54 am If you are asked to proofread, I would fix it, but otherwise I would leave it alone. This is likely part of this person’s native dialect (and therefore correct to them) and will be very hard for them to change consistently unless it’s something they really want to do.
Margery* July 6, 2018 at 12:07 pm Because they asked you to provide feedback I really think in this case you should have corrected them.
Lupin Lady* July 6, 2018 at 12:07 pm Be aware that in certain areas (think: rural) “seen” instead of “saw” seems to be socially-accepted, even by seemingly intelligent people. I’m a transplant into these rural areas, and it bothers me, but just please be aware of the dialect differences. Although I’ve never seen it written… Maybe you can politely point it out in the form of asking?
Annie Moose* July 6, 2018 at 12:14 pm Dialect and intelligence have literally nothing to do with each other. The fact that you speak a particular dialect of English does not inherently make you smarter than people who speak a different dialect of English.
Miss Pantalones en Fuego* July 6, 2018 at 3:43 pm What Annie Moose said, but also it’s not exclusive to rural America. I have a couple of English colleagues who use this construction along with “us” instead of “me”, “were” instead of “was”, and a couple of other ones that I can’t recall just now. (In fact now that I think of it, I wonder if the American dialect got it from the English regional usage?) I wouldn’t correct it in speech, but in the case where they are writing something I would have said something.
Annie Moose* July 6, 2018 at 12:12 pm That’s not wrong, it’s just dialectal. In formal writing, it’s not used, so in that context I think it’d be appropriate to bring it up, but when someone is speaking or writing informally, that’s just the way they speak. It’s not ungrammatical, it’s just a different dialect.
Overworked and Underpaid* July 6, 2018 at 12:35 pm This was my concern with pointing it out. Thanks for the insight!
Everdene* July 6, 2018 at 12:21 pm “I seen” always irritates my ears but I have struck a deal with myself; I’ll not correct spoken grammar (especially if it correct in that dialect but not standard English) but I will for written communication – especially if asked to proof!
Anonymosity* July 6, 2018 at 2:45 pm Same. Even if it makes me want to cringe. If asked about it, I explain that written is usually more formal for the purpose of clear communication, since you don’t get nonverbal cues like expression, tone, etc. from it.
nep* July 6, 2018 at 6:23 pm If they are asking for feedback, certainly fine to point that out. I think it’s showing respect for the person, particularly since they were asking for feedback. (Perhaps they were thinking of content or tone, but I don’t think it’s at all out of line to point out a grammar mistake.)
Cat Herder* July 7, 2018 at 12:18 pm If they ask you to check it or listen to it, then yes, definitely correct it. If they don’t ask, use one of the gentle suggestions below. If they get offended or upset, don’t correct in the future unless asked. Our office sends out tons of communication, formal and informal. Some of my colleagues are better at grammar, word choice, punctuation, and tone than others. My grand boss asked me once to eyeball everything formal, but they neglected to let the rest of the staff know. Wow, did I get an earful from a couple of colleagues! Some of it people who just get offended easily, some of it from people using their dialect. Not even saying that grand boss had instructed me to proofread made any difference. Grand boss never got around to following up, so now I wait til I’m asked. Even when cringey work goes out…
Ms. Meow* July 6, 2018 at 11:20 am TL;DR: is it ever too late to reach out to new networking contacts? About 2 months ago I went to a networking event for one of the professional organizations I’m in. I met some really great people and received some business cards then promptly misplaced them. I was cleaning out my desk this week, and I found them! Would it be too late to send out emails saying it was great to meet them and I’d like to connect? Should I let them know why it took me so long or does that make me look as flaky as I feel?
CatCat* July 6, 2018 at 12:05 pm Definitely not too late. You do not need to say that you misplaced the cards. Just send an email and keep it short and simple. “Dear Person, We met a couple months ago at [professional event]. It was great to meet you and other professionals in our field. I am [whatever it is your goal is in making the connection]. Would you be available for [lunch/coffee/phone call] in the next few weeks?”
Admin of Sys* July 6, 2018 at 12:27 pm I wouldn’t admit to /losing/ the business cards per se, and I wouldn’t format the message exactly the same way as you would have if the response had been closer to the initial meeting, but I don’t think you need to abandon the connection. I’d just phrase it something like ‘I recently came across your business card again and was reminded of the great conversation we had about x’.
Melting I'm melting* July 6, 2018 at 11:20 am I have an interview next week. My question is: do I go full interview outfit in this heat and arrive limp, sweaty and gross? Or do I wear a business casual, more heat appropriate outfit and turn up without sweat running down my face? It’s with a recruiter who already told me they don’t have a position that matches me currently, but who might have a spot in the future so I don’t want to totally tank my chances.
Higher Ed Database Dork* July 6, 2018 at 11:24 am I think I’d go for a coordinated slacks and blazer look and then just carry the blazer around, so basically nice slacks and a button down or blouse. A meeting with a recruiter seems a little more informal than a meeting with a hiring manager, but you can always put the blazer on later if you need to.
Amber Rose* July 6, 2018 at 11:25 am Can you layer? Like, wear a light shirt and carry your jacket, then put it on before you go in for the interview?
Melting I'm melting* July 6, 2018 at 12:00 pm I’d rather not since I’m dealing with multiple mass transit changes so if I’m carrying something it’s going to get messed up especially if I’m already carrying a larger bag than normal for my resume and stuff. I’d wear a dress but I don’t have any that are appropriate and I’m plus size so the options for finding some are limited too.
Ali G* July 6, 2018 at 12:12 pm I think if it’s just a recruiter then you don’t need to go full suit. How about a suit skirt or pencil skirt, with a nice blouse (not sleeveless)?
Ann* July 6, 2018 at 12:13 pm When I interviewed in the heat a few summers ago I did suit skirt + coordinating sweater. The sweater was the same size as the skirt, so it looked unified, but didn’t wrinkle as easily (I took it off while traveling to the interview) and was more breathable while I was wearing it than a suit jacket would have been. I kept baby wipes, deodorant, and makeup in my briefcase, so I could touch up if needed and kept my hair up, because the humidity makes it frizz like crazy.
Sunshine on a Cloudy Day* July 6, 2018 at 4:50 pm So I know that I look absolutely ridiculous, but I’ve started carrying around a little handheld rechargeable fan. Like not the paper/cloth kinds – like with a blade that blows cool air. If you go to amazon and search “hand held fan” you’ll see what I’m talking about. It is the best $15 I’ve spent. Then I just found this other one that actually hangs around your neck and blows the air directly up at your neck and face. I’ve found that if I have keep my face and neck cool(er/ish) it helps with me get through my commute (underground subway platforms when it’s 90+ degrees outside are unbearable!) without turning into a complete sweaty mess.
..Kat..* July 7, 2018 at 4:53 am I vote for heat appropriate, more business casual outfit. I think you will look more professional not being all hot and sweaty in a full interview outfit.
Cat Herder* July 7, 2018 at 12:26 pm In the past I’ve worn what you might call a summer suit. Light weight minimally wrinkling trousers and jacket with a lightweight shell or a sleeveless darted shirt. If you’re on public transit I’d take a towel to put on the seat. Take a hat or sun visor too if you’re going to be out in the sun walking from the bus stop to the office. And carry a small pack of wet wipes. Good for a quick clean up if your pits get sweaty!
PM anon* July 6, 2018 at 11:20 am So, there’s some extreme unbalance at my job. We work in project management. I currently have 130 projects. The average in the department is 50. Some of my team members have less than 20. My team has 400 projects and the other two teams have a combined total of 200. The women on my team consistently get more work than the men, along with being asked to help train people and help out when others are “slammed” with less projects, and when we bring up how it’s unfair that we do double or triple the work of other people, we’re told we’re being brash, nagging, and over-reacting. My manager loves to boast about how hardworking and great his team is, but he never helps us out when we’re slammed, and any concerns go in one ear and out the other, or he focuses on the wrong issue (he’s concerned about sending emails to the client instead of getting us resources to start the project and make sure it meets the timeline). I’m so burnt out, and this issue has been going on and raised to management for the entire four years I’ve been here. The people who have 15 or 20 projects say they’re “at capacity” and are the type who constantly ask for help, but never offer it in return. This is seriously impacting my life, and I really, really want to quit but I can’t quit without a new job lined up and I’ve been trying for two years to find a new job. How do you all deal with unequal workloads in the workplace, especially when you’ll get called out for dropping your status quo or not helping people?
Jessi* July 6, 2018 at 12:04 pm get a new job? Be really, really firm about not taking on anything more? Be like the people with 20 projects and be a broken record “While I’d love to help my plate is full.” “I have 130 projects, and no time. Ask Bob’s team” “I could take this project on but I would need to transition 10 projects to OtherTeam in order to have the time and space, let me know if thats what I should do”. Alison says if balls are never dropped then management is never going to fix the situation. So that is one option. However, if it has been brought up time after time and nothing is being done then I would suggest that its time to move on – its not going to change
PM anon* July 6, 2018 at 12:16 pm I would love a new job, but I’ve been searching hard for two years and nothing. It’s frustrating. A lot of recruiters ghosting me or getting to the final round and then never hearing back. I honestly can’t take another year or two of searching while staying in this job.
Sunny* July 6, 2018 at 12:24 pm Geez, I’m sorry you’re dealing with all of that. Is it possible to be more direct? If you are swamped with a ton of projects and one of the people with 15/20 projects asks for help, can you just tell them that “Sorry, I wish I could help but I’m at capacity right now so it’s not possible at the moment.” If you have to, maybe throw in: “Sorry, I wish I could help but I’m working on X projects and I’m at capacity right now so it’s not possible at the moment.”, with X being 130 projects or etc. This may deter them from bothering you again, especially if they know that you know they only have 15-20 projects. Can you do something similar when asked to take on new projects? “Sorry, I have X projects right now and I don’t feel comfortable taking on anything else at this moment, but I appreciate the opportunity.” You said that in your office “you’ll get called out for dropping your status quo or not helping people”… but maybe you’ll just have to take that and respond back truthfully. If someone calls you out, “You’re right, I have always done my best to go above and beyond when helping others and I’m still going to put 110% into my work, but I’ve decided what’s best for myself as a professional to avoid burning out and for my health is to take on less projects/work when I already have a ton on my plate.” If they are calling out someone with 130 projects for not taking on another or helping them when they have 15 and constantly need assistance, it seems like they don’t have a leg to stand on. I hope you can reduce your workload soon. That sounds incredibly overwhelming.
A person* July 6, 2018 at 12:32 pm You said you are being asked to train people and help out, and are getting a negative reaction when you say it’s not fair. Are you saying yes? Just say no when you are asked to take on more. Your plate is already full. Don’t say yes to the extra work in the first place. I’ve had this problem as a PM too. The women do more because they are more likely to say yes when asked to help out. The only solution that worked for me is to be like the people who are “at capacity” and say no. I got a lot of pushback of course. It’s hard at first when you’re a person who likes to be helpful, but it gets easier over time.
A person* July 6, 2018 at 12:42 pm Also wanted to add – some managers assume if you say yes, you must have the bandwidth to take it on. Otherwise you’d say no of course! Just like those other PMs do! Those PMs who do 25% of the work that you do still have jobs, don’t they?
PM anon* July 6, 2018 at 12:52 pm I have said no and that I don’t have bandwidth. I’m told to do it anyway because I should be a team player. I’ve been called “difficult to work with” when I say no or stand my ground. It’s truly exhausting and a lose/lose situation.
Lora* July 6, 2018 at 2:07 pm Then tell them “if you put this on my plate, it will be in line behind Projects A – ZZ. Hope that timeline works for you.” Do you have any kind of group meetings? That would be a good time to review who has what projects and how many and also their value to the company, just going around the room to give a brief update on projects. “Chaddington Silverspoon the IVth, why don’t you tell the group about what you’re working on?” “I have the Thoroughbred project, which is currently at 60% of its $3M budget.” “Well done, Chaddington! PM anon, how are your projects?” “The $50M hydroelectric plant is 12 months into execution with turbines to start factory acceptance next week. The $200M defense department project 897624560X has a kickoff meeting planned for July 10th, with initial approvals to purchase anticipated August 1st. The $30M SuperFund site remediation project is 90% complete and we are planning a punchlist review for September pending analytical results. We’ve submitted the proposal for the $120M microfluidics plant RFP and expect a response by end of third quarter this year.” (Chaddington’s head explodes)
PM anon* July 6, 2018 at 3:22 pm We have weekly group meetings and also a shared document where you can see who is working on what and what their numbers look like. I’ve given up speaking in them because the last time I asked if there was a way to reshuffle the workloads and maybe even out the project numbers so I wasn’t so overwhelmed, I got written up for “upsetting people”. This has happened to the other women on my team who also have high workloads (and the problem isn’t just men with low workloads, it’s a lot of other women too, it’s just that the top PMs who are asked to help and do more work are all women, so a lot of people use the “hysterical, overreacting women” excuse when we get angry).
LCL* July 6, 2018 at 4:55 pm Ask whoever runs the group meetings if you can give a short 5 minute rundown at the beginning on everyone’s stats. (I don’t know the size of your company, obviously this isn’t so easy if there’s 100 people doing the same job.) Do it under the guise of presenting something interesting about the numbers. I do this for my group, the difference is they don’t have any choice in their assignments it’s all based on a master schedule, and they still get really competitive about who is doing the most work. Don’t ask to reassign workload, or tell them that you are overwhelmed. That would be the best way, but you tried and it’s not working. The reason to do this in a meeting forum is so that others get used to talking about the assignments and the inequity, and you may gain some allies this way. It should go without saying that your manager should, never mind, every suggestion I have is violent and inappropriate for this column. And the next time someone tells you to your face that you are ‘brash, nagging, and overreacting’, tell them ‘whatever. We’re not discussing my personality, we’re discussing everyone’s work assignments.’ Personal attacks in those circumstances are always about distraction; drag them back on topic.
A person* July 6, 2018 at 2:53 pm I think they’re taking heavy advantage of the fact that you care what they call you. I’d rather be called “difficult to work with” than work myself to death or have a nervous breakdown, personally. I stopped caring the day I was frantically juggling six different things at the same minute and my manager came down the hall: I heard my male counterpart turn off his baseball game, put away his nail clippers, and tell our manager he couldn’t possibly take anything else on because he was on deadline for his one project. I do like the suggestions in this thread about taking something off your list (or reprioritizing to a much, much lower priority) for every new thing that gets put on it. It’s airtight logic. But it sounds like you work for people who try to emotionally manipulate you by personally attacking your work ethic if you don’t do what they want, so your mileage may vary.
neverjaunty* July 6, 2018 at 12:36 pm Push back. Brash? Nagging? What bullshit, sexist language. Don’t take the bait. They aren’t going to fire you – then they’d have to give your projects to Chad and Ryan. 1) stop helping people who don’t help back 2) “this isn’t about ‘nagging’; this is about an uneven workload and assignment of tasks.”
Super stressed* July 6, 2018 at 1:04 pm I don’t have any advice, but I’m in awe – I’m a PM too, but it must be in a wildly different industry because 20 projects is the max that people tend to have, and there is a breed of project manager adjacent to me that only have 1 or MAYBE 2 because their projects are so large. I can’t imagine 130 projects in any context.
Elle* July 6, 2018 at 1:17 pm “Sure. I will take on your project. But please note that it is #131 on my priority list. If you need it sooner than that, I suggest you take it to ________.” Also, have you made it Your Manager’s problem to manage? As in “Sure. I will do this project. Which of the ones I am currently doing would you like me to drop/hold/delay?”
Jules the 3rd* July 6, 2018 at 2:37 pm “Team player? Of course I am, that’s how I got the first 100 projects. After that, it stops looking like ‘team’. If you want those projects to get the time they need, assign them to someone else.” (make sure you use ‘sensing’ terms like looking or sounding; ‘feeling’ will undermine the message (misogyny sucks, but is real))
Anonymosity* July 6, 2018 at 2:48 pm Yeah, and this reeks of misogyny. The word *nagging* was a big clue.
OldJules* July 6, 2018 at 5:08 pm I not so recently called it out. I was ready to leave the team and organization that I like because of work assignments. I told my leader who had a negative view of my work (she thinks I’m ADD when in actuality, I’m slammed with urgent works and my projects slides). This is despite having a one on one with her regularly and she knows my worklist. I literally said, “I need to be able to say ‘No’ to you with regards to work assignment. My co-workers has taught me that it’s ok to say no. I will be saying that more frequently now. I want you to know that when I say no, its because I am at capacity and I want to be able to produce the best quality output for my clients.” Had she not completely stop sending every little thing my way, I would look for a new job. Because I get stuff done, I get sent a lot of work. My perception that I cannot say no to work assignment is wrong. I’m saying no now and that has become a game changer. If my co-workers can say no with no penalty (especially men), why would I say yes to every single thing? It’s a lesson that took many years for me to learn.
Ann O.* July 6, 2018 at 6:27 pm Is there any additional compensation that you get for being a high performer with a much higher workload? Is there a difference in difficulty/time commitment between the 15-20 projects and your 130? If the answer to these is no, then I think the main option available to you (in addition to the job hunting you’ve been doing) is to stop caring about being called a nag, not a team player, over reacting, etc. You’re already not liked or respected or your manager would listen to you. It is highly likely there is sexism going on. So your #1 priority needs to be protecting yourself. Hold your line; do the work that you can. It doesn’t have to be abrasive, but it can be firm. Save up in case this results in you being fired, although it seems unlikely that your team can afford to fire you. But your mental health is suffering, and that’s probably part of why you’re struggling to find work. Also, if you and the other affected women aren’t banding together and pushing back as a group, try to arrange that. Not in group meetings when there are other agenda items and the low-producing co-workers are present, but as a group in a special meeting just with your manager. I can actually see your manager’s point that a group meeting would feel like an inappropriate setting for this because you’re calling out your co-workers publicly. That would be upsetting and isn’t exactly your place as a peer to do. But set up a time as a group, take the numbers, practice redirecting away from comments about personality and to the numbers. The other thing that I can’t tell from your post or comment is whether you’ve escalated above your manager. If not, again band together as a group and escalate, carrying the hard numbers. It is horrible business policy to stress your hardworkers to protect your low workers. Your manager is clearly the problem, but maybe someone above your manager can champion you all.
pcake* July 8, 2018 at 8:58 pm If you have paperwork showing that the women are all doing that much more than the men and maybe emails that use words like “brash” and “nagging”, perhaps a lawyer or the labor board might be of assistance? The company won’t like you for it, but they don’t seem to fond of you now.
August* July 6, 2018 at 11:21 am Hello everyone! I’m currently job searching, and I have three quick questions that I would love to hear some input on: 1) Is the job application process for state government the same as federal (i.e. long and detailed resume rather than one page)? 2) A contact of mine recommended me for a position with a government contractor without my knowledge. When I checked the description, I saw that the position required management experience, which I don’t have. I expect that I’ll be weeded out during the pre-screening. However, I saw that the same contractor is hiring for another position in a different city that I would be qualified for. Would it be appropriate to put myself forward for that position? 3) Do you address a cover letter to the contact person (“send your materials to Ms. Smith at…”) or the person the position reports to (the Director Communications, for example)? Thank you!
Robyn (from Oregon)* July 6, 2018 at 12:44 pm I can only speak to your first question, and I’m sure it differs by state, but applying for a job with the state government here does use one of those application systems that takes you page by page through all the information they want, including supplemental questions. Lots of people do include their entire work histories, though there’s no requirement to include a summer job flipping burgers or other work that’s not really relevant to the position you’re seeking. The good thing is that usually the job postings are much clearer than USAjobs, for example.
bureaucat* July 6, 2018 at 1:27 pm Career state bureaucrat, here: 1) I have always used my one-page resume for state jobs. There is also a multi-page online application in my state. 2) yes 3) I’ve always done To Whom it May Concern for State jobs, since you never know who’s doing the reading (and there will be multiple layers of screening- first department HR, then the team hiring)
Cat Herder* July 7, 2018 at 12:35 pm Print out each page of that multi page online application— if there isn’t a system where you login once and it saves your answers for every other state govt job you apply to, you’re going to be typing those same answers over and over. You might even copy paste into a Word doc and then just copy paste with each subsequent application. And good luck w your job search :)
Bacon Pancakes* July 8, 2018 at 6:20 pm 1) The State Agency I work for has a lengthy multi-page application that you can download as pdf and save. Most positions also request a resume. 2) It can’t hurt. 3) An easy work-around is to address to “The Hiring Committee”. At my state agency you typically send your application materials to HR in HQ at The Capitol but that HR person doesn’t have any hand in the hiring process other than verifying that the exam qualifications were valid.
Legally 1L* July 6, 2018 at 11:23 am I’m an assistant at a big law firm in NYC. I’ve worked here for about 2 years but now I am moving on to law school. This law firm is very prestigious and mostly only takes attorneys that come from big name ivy schools. The law school I’m going to is a good local school, but nowhere close to “top ranked”. People already know that I’m leaving and which school I’m going to. I would like to keep in touch with the attorneys I’ve worked with here but am not sure where to start. I have good rapport with most, if not all, of them but it’s not like I’m going off to receive a “Harvard Education” and people know it. I’ve built a pretty good reputation here, and everyone knows me as an efficient and competent worker. If ever given a chance to work here over the summer, I would definitely do it. People here are friendly but I’m aware that there are other “powers that be” which determine who will be recruited and who will not. Most people say “keep in touch” or “let me know if you have questions about school” and some have joked “maybe you’ll come back next summer!” but it’s hard to know how much they actually mean any of things. It’s also hard to follow up on such things anyway. What’s a good move here? I know this firm is an important network, but I hardly feel worthy of their time and don’t want to look like a brown-noser before I even know how well I’ll do at school.
LadyByTheLake* July 6, 2018 at 12:01 pm Law is ALL about who you know, and I am sure that people who are telling you to keep in touch mean it. Don’t expect to get a job with this firm, instead think of these folks as resources. Check in every six months or so, tell them how you are doing, ask simple questions (lawyers — and I am one — LOVE answering questions).
Legally 1L* July 6, 2018 at 12:25 pm What’s a good way to leave this firm that cements my relationship with them? I am here for about a week before leaving. Is it really impossible to get a job at this firm, even as a summer associate?
Another Lawyer* July 6, 2018 at 1:36 pm I think simply stopping to say goodbye to people you’ve worked with is a good way to leave on a good note. Say something simple like “it’s been great working with you” and let them know what you’re doing. I don’t think you should assume it’s impossible to get a summer associate position at your firm, and you should certainly try, if that’s the type of firm you want to end up in. But, as you’ve probably seen, it’s very competitive and while you might get a boost from having worked there previously it doesn’t guarantee you a spot. (FWIW, I know people who worked as paralegals in top firms in NYC, went to non-Ivy law schools, and then ended up as attorneys at those same firms. However I also know people who went to non-Ivy law schools and ended up at top firms with which they had no prior relationship. And I know people who have been completely shut out of biglaw.) And +1 to LadyByTheLake. Lawyers do like answering questions and helping each other out, so keep in touch as much as you can.
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 8:26 pm Mr. Next (my DH) wishes to say: Dear Legally 1L: congrats on getting into law school and making the leap! I sincerely hope you enjoy law school. It wasn’t always easy, but I found it fun! As background, I am a partner at a midsize firm in a major city (practicing about 15 years now), and started as an associate at one of the major NYC firms where a “Harvard education” was common. Here is some advice, which you can take or leave as you wish. (1) The world of law is large. If you’ve only worked at that one firm, you’ll be amazed to see how much law, and how many different types of law, get done outside those big elite firms. There is room for people to do all sorts of things, from all sorts of places. The people you worked with at the elite firm make up a tiny percentage of What Lawyers Do. If you don’t end up back there, that’s OK; there’s a lot out there. (2) Don’t sell yourself short! The elite firms (and elite public interest shops) aren’t just looking for Harvard. They’re also looking for superstars from the “lower-ranked” schools. Law Review or top 5 at a “lower” school will get you a lot of offers and opportunities, both at “elite” places as well as others. Work hard and (more importantly) thoughtfully, and you may do better than you think. (2a) (Even if you don’t, that’s OK! Obviously it’s better to do better in law school. But half your class will be below average in grades. You can make your name in other ways: a clinic that gives you hands-on experience, a judicial internship that leads to a judge’s recommendation, a corporate internship where you make friends, etc. Even if you aren’t thrilled with your grades, don’t be discouraged! A couple of years out, your grades won’t matter that much.) (3) As another commenter said, knowing people is key. If people know you, and your work ethic, and think highly of you, that will get you in the door for an interview where a person equally ranked at a “lower” school won’t get in. No guarantees of course! But definitely keep in touch with the people you know. Even if they don’t have a spot for you in that firm, they’ll know lots of folks at other firms, and a personal recommendation goes a long way. (For example, someone might not have the academic credentials to get into my old “elite” firm, but I stay in close touch with my friends there, and if they call me to recommend someone for a job at my firm, I take it seriously.). (4) Keep in touch with those people for advice, if nothing else. Law school gets very insular – lots of law students talking to law students, the blind leading the blind. (Apologies for the generalization, but remember, I’m a former law student myself.). Getting advice on How To Get A Job After Law School is not so good from law students, and much better from real practicing lawyers. The associates at your firm can give you good advice. And be honest with them! You can say, “I have a B-minus at [low-ranked school] , so maybe I won’t be a strong candidate to come back for [elite firm], but you know, I really want to work in environmental law — do you have advice for me? Anyone you know who would be willing to speak with me?” Keep working that network! Which leads me to… (5) Spend lots of time with your classmates. Yes, law school is serious and you should work hard. But the people you go to school with will be interesting and fun and, in 10, 15, and 20 years, likely form the backbone of your support network. You will all be working with each other, and recommending each other. Make friends for life! It’s both more enjoyable, and better for your career. Sorry this was long, but in general: congrats, good luck, definitely keep in touch with EVERYONE you meet, and best wishes for success and happiness!
CTT* July 6, 2018 at 1:55 pm I have had a similar trajectory as you – started out as a paralegal, currently studying for the bar, although in a much smaller market than NYC (where like 1/3 of the firm went to the same state school I’m at), so take this with a grain of salt. First, I do think that they mean it when they say to stay in touch, although if the attorneys you work with are anything like the ones I’ve worked with, actually getting them to respond to non-work-related emails may be a crapshoot. That’s why calling may be a better bet (since you know them) and if you’re not already close with the other assistants, get their contact info now. If it’s not totally counter to your office’s culture, you might want to CC the attorney’s assistant when you send them a “Do you have time for a call/can we meet for coffee?” email (again, depends on your firm’s culture – we were very big on cc’ing at mine). Second, you may have to work outside of the usual hiring system if you want to work there over the summer. Firms generally only do on-campus interviews at certain schools, and if your firm is very Ivy-centric, they’re probably not coming to your school to do interviews. If there’s someone you feel comfortable asking, I’d go ahead and ask now if they 1) hire 1Ls for the summer and 2) when they do that hiring. Some firms put that info on their website, and some don’t, so it’ll be good to go ahead and calendar that so you can go submit your cover letter and resume on time. Third, even if you get to school and fall in love with an area your firm doesn’t specialize in, or you want to go into government, or in house, etc., still stay in touch! If it’s a big firm, then someone will have a spouse/child/friend who works in the area you’re interested in and that they can hook you up with. Finally, good luck with law school! It’s an exciting time, and you’re really well-placed since you’ve already had a real job. People have probably already told you this, but it’s true: treat school like a job, come in at 8, leave at 5, and you’ll do great. (Also, selfishly, I’m glad you posted this because it flashed me back to when I was about to start law school and how excited I was, and since I’m in the bar doldrums, I needed that reminder)
fromscratch* July 6, 2018 at 11:23 am Any tips for dealing with a truly obnoxious coworker who also has big emotional/insecurity issues? I work at a small startup (10 employees total) and have been dealing with a very strange coworker since she started a month after me earlier this year. She is LOUD. Makes weird noises, does weird voices, shouts, sings, plays music or sound effects on her phone, talks at a very high volume on all phone calls, wants to celebrate every minor task accomplished. Think: Jean Ralphio and Mona Lisa from Parks and Rec wrapped up in one person in an open plan office where none of the walls go all the way to the ceiling. Basically no consideration for the fact that there are 9 other people trying to do work in this office. But if the rest of us try to have a conversation, or crack a window to let in fresh air – she complains that we are being too loud and disturbing her. She will interrupt work, private conversations, meetings, etc to ask random questions that are either not work-related or could be easily looked up on our internal websites. And rather than go to slack, IM, or email – they always have to be in-person verbal conversations. In any interaction, if we don’t acknowledge her or respond in a way she finds acceptable, she gets on IM and trash talks that person to others in the office. When management isn’t here, it’s an out-loud stream of consciousness rant about how much she hates our company, our product, our strategies, etc. Any response that isn’t overwhelmingly positive is interpreted as us hating her and then she swings into a sulking tantrumy mood. Any thoughts?
Mikasa Ackerman* July 6, 2018 at 11:29 am It seems like she REALLY loves attention. Does management know about this?
LizB* July 6, 2018 at 11:30 am This person sounds exhausting. I don’t really have a lot of solutions, but wow. Has management been alerted to these problems (especially the ones that occur when they’re not around)? Can you and your not-obnoxious coworkers band together to make sure that if Jane Ralphio starts smack-talking one of you over IM, nobody will respond?
fromscratch* July 6, 2018 at 11:54 am Management knows and is going to start coaching but we all know it will be a long slow road to progress if there even is any. We all had a group lunch when the obnoxious one was out last week and realized that we were all suffering similarly. It was great to realize we were all in this together.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 11:31 am I think Alison’s article from earlier this week about the coworker that did favors and then acted out because people weren’t sufficiently grateful would be helpful here. You can either stand up to her and deal with her having tantrums and trying to talk shit to other people, or you can continue to ignore it. But I don’t think you get to have both.
Jessi* July 6, 2018 at 12:08 pm Ask her to keep it down every time she gets loud. Ask her to email every time she interrupts. Ask to meet with someone in management and then walk them in quietly and let them overhear her on a loud rant? Go to your manager explain that you are having trouble and ask for ‘guidance’ with how to move forwards?
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 12:14 pm It sounds like her expectations are completely out of whack. If she were a reasonable (but inexperienced) person, setting boundaries and modeling appropriate behavior would help clue her in to professional norms, but I don’t think she’ll pick up on anything but the most direct messaging. And I don’t think she’d respond graciously to direct messaging. I think your best bet is to bring her behavior to the attention of your managers. It’s important to do so in a very business-focused way so you don’t seem like you’re gossiping or looking to get her into trouble (backing from coworkers would be helpful, but again, you need to make sure that it doesn’t come across as clique-y or mean-spirited). Honestly, this sounds like it’s going to resolve itself. Unless she performs at a super high level or management is really motivated to keep her, she’ll probably quit or be fired before long. Be glad she’s not your relative or in your social circle!
Anonymosity* July 6, 2018 at 3:09 pm LOL this made me giggle, but I really feel for the OP. I can’t imagine working with either Saperstein.
Amber Rose* July 6, 2018 at 11:23 am It’s that time of the year again: competency records. I have to go through and rate my skills on a thousand different things, most of which I don’t do, and then go through it with my supervisor, who has no idea what I do or if I’m good at it so will more or less just agree with whatever I wrote. None of these things are reviewed by management or affect my employment in any way, so it’s kind of like doing a whole employee review on my own, on both sides, to no purpose. Can you tell how excited I am? Anyways, here’s a dumb question: How do I rate myself from 1 to 5 on changing lightbulbs/emptying garbages/cleaning floors etc. if I never do those things, but presumably could. 1 is “I am utterly incompetent” and 5 is “I am an expert that people defer to for troubleshooting and problem solving.”
fromscratch* July 6, 2018 at 11:56 am Is it a skill rating or an “I do this in my job” rating? I used to do this in salesforce’s skills matrix and it was always “things I could actually accomplish if asked” and not related to my actual position. Ex: I have graphic design experience but never had to do that for work. Still rated it a 5 b/c I know how to do it.
Amber Rose* July 6, 2018 at 12:13 pm Well, it’s a competency record for the quality team to track our ability to do work. Theoretically I’m supposed to rate my actual skill at each task. Most of them are N/A and that’s fine, but I feel ridiculous putting N/A for taking out the garbage.
Susan Sto Helit* July 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm It’s a stupid thing to be on a competency form. Just imagine the outcomes. “Amber Rose says she’s level 5 competency at taking out garbage, so let’s make her the Taking Out The Garbage lead.”
Amber Rose* July 6, 2018 at 12:31 pm I know, right? This whole process is ridiculous. I can rate myself pretty reliably on any of the tasks in my actual job, but you either can or can’t take out the garbage. It’s not really a scalable task. Maybe I can look up what I put down last time and just put that. :/
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 2:35 pm Side step it and use the N/A option. Your justification would be “Although I can do these things, it’s not a part of my routines here.”
LizB* July 6, 2018 at 11:24 am Today’s my last day in my current role! I’m moving within my organization to a totally new department and a role with more responsibility (or at least very different responsibility). Currently cleaning out my desk and wondering how I accumulated so much stuff.
Bacon Pancakes* July 6, 2018 at 11:24 am My co-worker has this habit of talking “around” me rather than talking “to” me. Rather than say “Bacon Pancakes, will you be out in the north pasture llama wrangling tomorrow? I need to fix the gate” he will go to my boss (or anyone who will listen) and very loudly proclaim “Well, I don’t know if ANYONE is going to be WRANGLING LLAMAS in the NORTH PASTURE TOMORROW but I need to fix the gate” and then long pause while he and my boss stare at me to see my response (my boss can look into my office from his). I have been trying to ignore it because dude, if you want to know what I am doing, just ask. It gets predictably awkward while they wait for a response and I just keep doing whatever I was working on until my boss says “Bacon Pancakes?” I look up, smile and ask “yes?” and my boss makes my co-worker repeat his question to me directly. I am pretty sure my co-worker knows it bugs me that he won’t just address me directly. How do I, a) address this in the moment that talking around me to get a reaction isn’t working and, b) enlist my boss to help stop this and encourage my co-worker to address me directly if he needs to know my work plans. I am not the only person he does this to, he also addresses our office manager (…the only other woman who is employed in our office full-time…) in this way and I know it bothers her as well. Although he is more likely to walk up to her desk and wait for her to acknowledge him (clearing throat, coughing, drumming fingers on her desk) while she is working (on the phone, placing an order, whatever). Like he won’t just say her name and ask her for a stamp, he will just stand there coughing waiting for her to look at him. AWWWWWKKKKWARD!
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 11:33 am It sounds to me like this is a pretty ingrained thing with him, and I think you’ll have better luck with redefining it in your mind than with changing him. But have you ever asked him, with curiosity rather than vexation, why he does this? “Fergus, that thing where you asked the room instead of me whether somebody could do that when what you wanted is for me to do that–why do you do that instead of asking me directly?” That might startle him into giving some really useful perspective. I think it’s possible to take it to the boss but I’d consider the workplace dynamic carefully before doing so. If you’re friendly with your boss, I’d probably start with a similar question–“That thing where Fergus asks you instead of asking me directly–do you know what’s up with that? And I see him do the same thing to Lavinia–is it only to the women? It’s kind of annoying and I’d love to redirect him, especially if it’s a gendered thing. Any suggestions for that?”
LizB* July 6, 2018 at 11:39 am That is such weird behavior. Have you directly asked him to stop doing this/pointed out the pattern of behavior? “Fergus, if you have a question about my work schedule, can you please ask me directly about it? There’s no need to make Boss the middleman, we can just communicate with each other.” And to your boss: “I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but Fergus often seems to ask you questions about my work plans when he could easily just ask me, since I’m right there! It seems like it would be so much easier if he came to me directly. Do you think you could ask him to change that habit?”
Murphy* July 6, 2018 at 11:43 am I would also ignore it until someone addressed me directly, but that doesn’t seem to be working. Maybe next time just point it out? Them: “Well, I don’t know if ANYONE is going to be WRANGLING LLAMAS in the NORTH PASTURE TOMORROW but I need to fix the gate.” You: “You could ask!” *friendly bright smile*
Lehigh* July 6, 2018 at 4:32 pm Oh, man. Them: “Well, I don’t know if ANYONE is going to be WRANGLING LLAMAS in the NORTH PASTURE TOMORROW but I need to fix the gate.” You: *stand up, walk to the door, lean into the boss’s office* Hey guys, I’m so sorry but I couldn’t help overhearing. Can I make a suggestion? Maybe if you want to know if someone is going to be in the North Pasture you should ask that person. Just a thought. I’ll be in my office if you need me. *walk back to your own desk, return to work* Do not do this if your boss is also a jerk.
The Ginger Ginger* July 6, 2018 at 12:02 pm Wait, wait. Does he ONLY do this to women in the office? What the heck? He goes to your male boss instead of coming to you? Does he ever do this kind of thing to the men who work there? That’s….ugh. I think you can certainly try to raise it with your boss. “I’ve noticed Fergus seems to always come to talk to you when he actually has a question on my schedule/status of my project/etc. Would you mind just redirecting him to me with those kind of questions? There’s no reason for him to have to filter everything through you, and it honestly feels a bit strange to have you acting as some kind of mediator in what should be a normal business conversation.” And if boss doesn’t say yes, ask him WHY he won’t just send him to you. If you have a good relationship with your boss, you could even ask him if he finds the behavior as perplexing as you do, and ask for this in terms of – hey, let’s see if we can change his behavior by working together on this. I think the key either way is to not sound frustrated or angry, but just honestly perplexed. And in the example you gave above. You can totally say something in the moment in that same non-angry tone. Once he repeats his question to you instead of your boss, can you just say, “Yes, I’ll be in that pasture tomorrow. You know, you can come ask me that sort of thing directly. I don’t mind.”
Free Meerkats* July 6, 2018 at 4:32 pm AS he only does this to women, you might want to point this out to the boss. And depending on the boss, enlist him to react thusly the next time it happens: “Well, I don’t know if ANYONE is going to be WRANGLING LLAMAS in the NORTH PASTURE TOMORROW but I need to fix the gate”. Boss just says nothing, you say nothing. Let the awkward silence hang in the air and see what happens next. I’d almost bet money he will repeat it, louder. Then the boss, rather than saying, “Bacon Pancakes?”, can tell him to find out rather than the announcement to the world.
Bacon Pancakes* July 8, 2018 at 7:01 pm Thanks everyone for taking the time to provide some suggestions. I don’t know if anyone will make it back around, but I appreciate the outside perspective. I know this behavior frustrates my boss also. He and I do have a good relationship, and this is not an isolated instance of (what I consider to be) disrespectful passive-aggressive behavior towards me. My boss has been privy to most of the outbursts… as in he once yelled at my boss that he doesn’t think I deserve a job during a ‘closed door’ session (our walls are pretty thin). There is a lengthy backstory involved which revolves around a lot of pent-up resentment about my position that came with this otherwise relatively pleasant job. I do feel that this behavior is an engendered matter. There is one other woman in our office (diversity for the win!!) who works seasonally, and this is a common behavior towards us all. If called out directly, his defense would likely be that he shares an office with the other men who work in the field while I have my own office, so he doesn’t need to search them out to have a conversation. But my office shares a wall with his, so it isn’t like he has to walk two buildings away to find out. The best course of action I think I have is to speak to my boss and see if we can figure out a way to redirect this behavior with some of the scripts that y’all suggested. Thanks again for giving me some insight.
San Diego* July 6, 2018 at 11:27 am Tl;dr Should I have told a direct report I could see her underwear line and that her outfits might look like pajamas? I had an employee who, when she started with us, wore what I would have perceived as pajamas but she clearly did not see them as pajamas. Think a t-shirt with a print on it and matching soft pants, along with a matching pair of fashion eye glasses (ie no lenses). She is from another country but had lived in the US for years. Her pajama-ish bottoms were thin and showed an underwear line. My office has absolutely zero dress code and is culturally very casual. People regularly walk around without shoes on because they think it’s more comfortable. So there is absolutely no standard of professional dress to hold employees to. Someone else’s direct report would wear shirts that bared her stomach in the past and no one said anything. I was not sure it would be appropriate to talk with my employee given that no one else was being held to any kind of visual standard. She ended up changing her style on her own. Should I have talked to her about it?
Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want* July 6, 2018 at 11:31 am If the office was this casual, I think you were right to not bring it up with your report. You would have to be really specific about what wasn’t appropriate about her outfit (which is uncomfortable), and she would definitely have felt like she was being treated unfairly.
Graciosa* July 6, 2018 at 12:05 pm I’m open to arguments that this office is so casual that visible underwear doesn’t cross the line, but I really disagree that the manager’s level of comfort is relevant to the decision about whether or not to address it if it is an issue. That is part of the job. I’m inclined to think it was an issue even in that environment because the individual changed her style without prompting. Sometimes people do start to get a sense that maybe it wasn’t a good choice on their part and self-correct. It’s lovely when it happens – but I’m not inclined to let the manager off the hook, because saying something is actually our job. I probably sound really harsh / direct about this, but it’s a critical shift in thinking that you need to be a good manager. I hope readers can picture me saying this firmly, but with kindness. ;-)
Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want* July 6, 2018 at 1:18 pm Hmm you’ve convinced me :) I still think OP was right not to bring it up in this particular case. If an office doesn’t require people to wear shoes, a panty line is hardly a concern – and you could argue that it would be crossing a professional line to imply that the report should be wearing a thong.
Jules the 3rd* July 6, 2018 at 2:41 pm enh – I don’t count underwear *lines* in the same class as visible underwear (eg, thongs above low riding jeans). In a casual office with no dress code where someone had a bare stomach with no managerial comment or pushback, lines visible on soft pants are not comment-worthy.
Saskia* July 6, 2018 at 9:53 pm I agree with Jules. Visible underwear lines are not a dress code violation at any of my conservative workplaces and I think it would be problematic to comment about them. People who present as women are more highly policed wrt their visible underwear lines. To me it’s a remnant of very sexist practices at workplaces from the past. I guess you could bring it up if you were prepared to also have a word with every dude whose underwear lines were visible.
Susan Sto Helit* July 6, 2018 at 11:41 am I don’t think so. There are very, very few situations in which you can reasonably have a conversation with an employee about their underwear, and I don’t think this qualifies. Aren’t humans funny about underwear, though? It’s so weird when I actually make myself think about it properly…why does it matter if someone can see the line of my underwear? They know I’m wearing it anyway, right? Having confirmation of that shouldn’t be in any way scandalous. And yet I still seek out that ‘invisible seam’ underwear.
KayEss* July 6, 2018 at 8:15 pm Humans are definitely funny about underwear. When I was a freshman in college, I received an email from a classmate’s girlfriend who ordered me to keep away from him, while at the same time insisting that she was only trying to help poor little me by explaining how having my underwear line show made me look like an [insert misogynist slur here] trying to attract attention to myself and tempt otherwise good boys. I don’t think I could have picked her boyfriend out of a lineup. Even at the least secure I’ve ever been in my life, I found it hilarious.
Murphy* July 6, 2018 at 11:55 am If there was really no standard for anyone, I think you did the right thing not bringing it up.
Graciosa* July 6, 2018 at 11:56 am Yes. The reason is that part of your job as a manager is to do your best for your employees, regardless of your personal feelings. That means having much tougher conversations than telling someone that their underwear is too visible for even a very casual office. You note that “someone else’s” direct report wore something you thought might be an issue, and “no one” said anything. It isn’t everyone’s job – it’s that person’s manager. In this case, that’s you – and you also ducked the issue and decided not to have a difficult conversation. Apologies for the harsh tone, but this is something that is really important to be clear on as a manager – your comfort in doing something that is part of your job needs to be pretty irrelevant. You OWE your employees your best guidance. That includes – for those who want to get promoted, or get more high profile assignments, or whatever – information about what might be holding them back. It is not only fair to tell someone that visible underwear may be impacting how they are perceived in the environment, it is necessary. How would you feel if you found out years later that you never moved up because of something you could – and would – have easily adjusted? Don’t do this to members of your team. A couple final thoughts. First, do keep in mind that you need to be aware of how your own personal preferences relate to the culture around you. Second, with that awareness, you do not have to accept the lowest common denominator as the standard for your team as long as you are not imposing your preferences inappropriately. Let me translate those rules a little more practically with an example. I once had a boss who told us explicitly what her dress code was for our team and why. It was a higher standard than the company culture, but we were a new function and she wanted us to appear to be highly professional to increase our credibility while others were forming their first impression of ours. It was not only a fair request, is was a smart move on her part. Teams, like individuals, can have a brand – she made ours intentional. On the other hand, she did not impose any personal views in an inappropriate way – meaning the standard applied equally regardless of gender (no requirement for women to wear skirts and heels while men wore trousers and flat shoes), religion (no rules regarding facial hair – or regular hair – or the lack or quantity thereof, for example), etc. You don’t have to apologize for having a slightly higher standard (and really, no visible underwear is not extraordinarily out there) for people who want to move up or simply for your team – unless you fail to communicate it clearly and directly, which would be a major failure. Best wishes –
Saskia* July 6, 2018 at 9:56 pm Graciosa I think San Diego is referring to visible underwear lines, not visible underwear. These are different things.
post-it* July 6, 2018 at 1:16 pm Can you please clarify “underwear line”? I’m totally on board with letting someone know that their outfit falls short of adequately professional (like in this case, the type of pants aren’t cutting it), but unless you mean underwear visible outside of clothing (not just a shadow/line across the rear end) then you should probably let that be. “VPL” is tolerated to different extents by different individuals and it’s really not your place to police this very minor characteristic.
medium of ballpoint* July 6, 2018 at 7:36 pm Yeah, I can’t see VPL as inappropriate, and it baffles me that is a thing that bothers people. Most people have way more important things to worry about than the precise math of underwear + bottoms that won’t give them VPL. If she’s dressed too casually it’s fine to bring that up, but fussing about how her underwear lays against her bum is ridiculous.
Thlayli* July 6, 2018 at 7:33 pm That doesn’t sound like pyjamas to me. I think you were right to not mention it.
San Diego* July 6, 2018 at 9:00 pm Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. On both sides, I appreciate the constructive food for thought. Some people asking for clarification—you could not see her underwear at all, just an outline. I totally agree with those who pointed out that tackling tough conversations is part of a manager’s job and I’m definitely going to reflect more on whether I fell down on that in this particular case.
Saskia* July 6, 2018 at 9:59 pm It may be useful to think about whether you would apply the same standard to a dudely type of person who you are managing if this comes up in future.
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 8:51 pm It sounds like you might be describing “ethnic” or “fashion ethnic” clothing, which if true would make a conversation even less appropriate. And what would you have been suggesting as a remedy? Thicker pants? Or thong underwear? Because the second would have been over the line, and if the thin pants were an ethnic outfit, the first would have been inappropriate too, as you would have essentially been singling her out based on her cultural background. I think you did the right thing by saying nothing, since your office is super casual. A more formal environment might warrant a conversation about appropriate fabrics, if it was a standard that was demonstrably applied to other employees. But not about underwear.
Delta Delta* July 7, 2018 at 2:16 am I do not understand the underwear issue. People wear underwear. I’d guess the majority of people wear underwear. Why is this an issue?
Sunshine Brite* July 6, 2018 at 11:29 am I’m interested in writing nonfiction but now that I’m out of school I don’t have access to various research databases. What are some effective ways people have found to research to complement their writing?
Bee's Knees* July 6, 2018 at 11:33 am Google scholar is fairly helpful, depending on the amount of information about your research topic. I haven’t found it to be great for niche subjects, but if your topic is widely covered, it can be helpful.
Emily S.* July 6, 2018 at 11:45 am I have found that my public library has a “virtual library” where one can access quite a few databases. Not sure about the library where you are, but it’s something to look into.
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 11:45 am I learned on twitter today that the cost of a subscription to a journal/access to an article in the database goes directly to the publisher/database without any royalties paid to the author. According to the thread I saw, many researchers are happy to share pdf’s of their papers if you reach out to them directly. That might be more common in certain disciplines, but every academic I’ve ever met loves an opportunity to talk about their work!
Jane* July 7, 2018 at 8:08 am I’ll add that most publishers allow authors to post their article on their own website and/or institutional website, so if you find an article you like behind a paywall, just go to the website of the author to see if they did that. Many, many do.
Bumblebee* July 6, 2018 at 11:50 am If it has any kind of historic element, Google eBooks – trove of primary source documents and old books available from the 19th and early 20th centuries. + 1 for Google Scholar as well JSTOR has a free public-access section for their database as well Public libraries often have resources, and librarians can be fantastic about helping track down consortium loans.
periwinkle* July 6, 2018 at 12:20 pm ResearchGate is one of my favorite sites! Researchers can upload their journal articles to the site for others to access. You can follow authors you’ve cited, and will be notified if someone uploads a paper citing you. Unfortunately, not everything can be posted – I have one peer-reviewed published article but the publication forbids distributing the published version for free. However, if people request my article, I can legitimately send them my final draft (can’t upload it, though). Between RG and Google Scholar searches, you can find a wealth of academic research for free. I was bummed because my masters institution doesn’t offer alumni access to the online library. Luckily my current institution does, woo hoo! (my employer offers database access but only to engineering journals plus some business/adult education journals)
SophieChotek* July 6, 2018 at 1:48 pm My local library does not have subscriptions to many databases, but they are pretty good at getting me the relevant journal articles when I need them. Second the reaching out to scholar directly. Also interlibrary loan can be better than nothing when it comes to books, but the loan time is often tight. (weeks, versus months and no renewals.)
librariandragon* July 6, 2018 at 2:20 pm Libraries! Public and academic libraries usually have on-site access to databases, its just going to depend on what the library subscribes to. You might need to get a library card, or visitor access for academic libraries, but the librarians can help you get that rolling and also provide assistance in remote access and other resources that might be of use to you. Additionally, depending on what you’re writing about, you might have better or more luck using archival collections. Archives often digitize materials and make them available online, or by appointment in person. Some of them even have microfilmed collections you can access through interlibrary loan. Generally those are going to be primary sources, so it is very much dependent on the type of research you’re doing.
Jenny F. Scientist* July 6, 2018 at 2:59 pm As librariandragon also says, if you live near a large research institution, you can generally get access to articles by showing up physically in their library and/or get an ‘I’m local!’ card. (I used to do this in Richmond; I still had to pay for printing/xeroxing but it was pennies.)
medium of ballpoint* July 6, 2018 at 7:40 pm I’m pretty sure Reddit has a sub where folks with library access can pass along articles to folks without access. Might be worth looking into, and good luck finding what you need!
LibbyG* July 6, 2018 at 9:52 pm You might be able to get access to the library resources of your nearest state college or university. Two states I’ve lived in had that kind of thing.
Penguin* July 7, 2018 at 3:12 pm –The Digital Commons (http://network.bepress.com/) is a database for research articles archived by universities and freely available! –The browser extension Unpaywall looks for legal freely available versions of an article that you discover is paywalled; e.g. look up an article, go to the publisher’s page for it, and based on DOI Unpaywall will tell you if it can access a non-paywalled version. –Often authors are willing to share articles they’ve written if you reach out and email them. –A number of large US government agencies (EPA, USGS, NOAA, USACE, etc.) maintain databases of articles written by employees; even if they were published by a separate publisher (i.e. not a report released directly by a government agency) the public can often get a “in the public domain” version from the agency database. –Some public library systems allow non-residents to get a library card and use their services; the New York City public library system, for example, allows NY State residents to get a card even if they’re not City residents. –Open access and freely available publishing is becoming more and more frequent; check the Directory of Open Access Journals (https://doaj.org) for OA journals in your research area, and check paywalled journals too- many are making individual articles OA or otherwise freely available, sometime permanently and sometimes for a given time period. (Following journals on social media is a good way to get clued in to those temporary access periods.) –Science Open (https://www.scienceopen.com) is a growing repository of freely-available articles on MANY different subjects; they’re probably worth a look. –Archive.org has many old, in-public-domain references, including books digitized by Google. It’s a great source for older “foundational” books and articles.
CRM?* July 6, 2018 at 11:30 am Any Certified Records Managers here? I’m taking part 6 of the CRM exam next month and looking for words of wisdom about 1. how to prepare and 2. what it’s like to take an essay exam at a testing center. I’m enough of “an old” that prior to beginning the CRM exam sequence, I’d never taken any test at a testing center. Regarding the “how to prepare” piece of my question, it might be useful to know that despite the CRM’s reputation as a very hard test, I barely prepared for any of them. I’m more nervous about part 6 because it isn’t multiple choice–I’m genetically predisposed to being good at multiple choice tests–and it is SO LONG.
Damn it, Hardison!* July 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm CRM here, and I used to grade part 6 (haven’t in a few years, though). As a reviewer, we got guidelines for grading that mapped very closely to the part 6 guidelines for taking the exam, so my biggest piece of advice is read and re-read that part of the study guide and structure your answers like it suggests. I think how to write the answer in part 6 is just as important as the specific content of your answer. Be clear and concise, support your answer with specifics, if you are make assumptions in your answer, be sure to call them out if necessary to understand your answer. And, remember that your response doesn’t need to be perfect – 70% is a pass! Good luck!
CRM?* July 6, 2018 at 12:32 pm Thanks! I barely read the study guide for the first 5 parts so the reminder that it exists is helpful :-)
Bee's Knees* July 6, 2018 at 11:32 am This week on Antics in a Smalltown Newsroom- It came over the police scanner that an elderly lady was in the street in her wheelchair, trying to direct traffic. One of my coworkers was fighting on the phone with her husband, telling him he better be out of the house by the time she got home, or he could pick up his stuff in the yard. The next day, they were all the phone being lovey-dovey. I had a lady call about the cost of an obituary, and come to find out she wanted to put one in for her dog. (I couldn’t help her, but I directed her to advertising.) I was threatened with a lawsuit by two separate people because they didn’t like an article we published. It also came over the police scanner that while a criminal was running away, he got caught in barbed wire. The then decided to shoot his way out, (You can see where this is going, right?) and shot himself in the leg.
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 12:33 pm Very funny and thanks for sharing. But watch out for the people who want to hit you with a lawsuit… that’s how the Capital Gazette (Annapolis) shooting got started. Be safe. You’re doing important work, even if it is just reporting that Mrs. McGillicuddy had to be escorted home by police when she was found directing traffic from her wheelchair at Elm and Mapleway.
medium of ballpoint* July 6, 2018 at 7:47 pm I love police blotters! My favorites from my hometown newspaper have stuck with me over the years: 1. Husband and Wife had an argument and Wife’s Mom weighed in. Husband got mad, caught himself a snake (as you do in the desert, NBD), drove back to the house, opened the door, and tossed the snake into the living room where Wife and Wife’s Mom were, without comment. 2. Smokin’ Sally called 911 and told the dispatcher she was too high to see and asked for an officer to come open her window so she could air out the smoke. 3. In what was perhaps a second performance from Smokin’ Sally, an Demon Doll called the cops because she was hallucinating a demon outside her window who was making lewd licking sounds and wouldn’t stop so she could go to sleep. 4. Gas Station Dude called the cops to report that a drunk gentleman had passed out outside the station and apparently while Gas Station Dude was busy, some kids came by and dressed up Drunk Gentleman in their grandma’s clothes. 5. Likely White Dude bought a donkey from Backyard Donkey Breeder, then tried to sue him because the donkey he purchased wasn’t obedient enough. I love small towns!
KayEss* July 6, 2018 at 8:19 pm Wait… why can’t you put in an obituary for your dog? Is that a rule? (I mean, I assume there are definitely some kind of rules for publishing an obituary, but I’m having an Air Bud moment.)
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 9:04 pm Obituaries are considered news stories and are printed free of charge (this was true at the daily newspaper I worked at donkey’s years ago). So a notice of a pet’s death would be treated as a different thing altogether.
Chaordic One* July 6, 2018 at 9:35 pm I think I saw the obituary last Sunday. It opened with a quote attributed to St. Francis (the patron saint of animals), went on to describe all his positive qualities (kind, loyal, etc.) and then ended with a list of his survivors including his pet parents and pet siblings, Frodo and Zeus.
Just Me* July 6, 2018 at 11:32 am No question here, just some thinking out loud. My company is being sold so I’ve been trying to figure out what I’d like to do next, regardless of whether I get an offer from the new company or not. If I get an offer, will it be worth the longer commute and working for a large company? If I don’t get an offer, what do I really want to do and how picky can I be? I was a Jill of All Trades type at a former company, and now I’m more specialized. Because of that previous experience, I could go in several different directions and probably be happy with any of them. I picked the wrong direction at my previous job (the one after that former company), so I’m trying to avoid that as much as possible; I really don’t want to cry in the shower everyday again. I’ve started a list: Wish List/Likes, Can Live With, Deal-breakers. Surprisingly, my Deal-breakers list isn’t nearly as big as I thought it would be–there are only a few items on it. As I’m going through this exercise, I find that I miss the chaos, so to speak, of the former company, as it was a small startup and I wore many hats. The upside is I was never bored, always challenged, and gained a ton of experience. The downside to that was never feeling as though I could truly focus in any one area because I was stretched very thin. In my current job, there are lots of things that bore me tears and make me antsy in my chair. When I got here, there was lots to figure out within the department, new things to implement and issues to fix. Four years later, it runs like a well-oiled machine, which is great for the company and my reputation here, but boring as hell. I’m thinking I want to go back to a something similar to my former company environment, but don’t even know how to channel that into a specific type of job within my industry. And I don’t want to be stretched quite that thin again. I guess to sum it all up, I like lots of change.
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm I did that once… picked a new direction for my career. I went back to what I had been doing after a few years. Turns out I’m just really good at that and I need to stick with it. I hope you land somewhere great!
Oswin* July 6, 2018 at 11:33 am When do you know that it’s time to move to a different company? And should I be frustrated with the below situation? I’ve been at my current company about three years, as one step above entry level. In that time, I’ve applied for five own roles one step above mine. The first time, about a year after I started, I figured that I wouldn’t get the promotion, and neither did my manager, who encouraged me to apply, but they and I figured it would be good experience. I didn’t get the position, and was told I needed more experience doing things that the higher position does. I worked with my manager and developed a game plan and got some experience, and presented my project in front of a SVP and c-suite executive. The second time, I applied for four open roles (same higher position, just different departments) that required multiple internal interviews, again at the urging of my manager. This was a little over a year and a half with the company. One VP canceled the interview on the same day, so I figured I wouldn’t have a shit at either of the two positions open under them. A director told me right as we started their interview that they wouldn’t recommend me for a promotion. At that point I was confused as to why they were interviewing me in the first place, but continued with the interview. I did not get any of the open positions, and was again told I needed more experience, this time in a different area, so I was transferred to another department, under a different manager, where there was the open higher-level role, but upper management downgraded that role into my current title. In my new department, the other person who had the same title as me was promoted after only being on the job for 7 months, and no interview needed. I was given another project and presented it again, and was told by the c-suite executive that I did well. Then, I became pregnant. We were going to be restructured, and I made a comment to my manager about moving and that I’d like to know sooner rather than later, when they told me that they had told management not to move me because I’m pregnant and my manager doesn’t like to move people going through personal changes, which I also took to mean, no chance of getting promoted while pregnant either. During the time after my last interviews, I was supposed to have monthly touch bases with the director, my grand-boss, in order to discuss my progress and discuss career goals. In 10 months, there were two that occurred. The rest would get canceled the day before, or houts before with no real explanation, just that they were busy and we could stop in if needed, with the subtext not to bother them. One of the two that stayed on the calendar literally lasted 1.5 minutes. My coworker was shocked when I came back so soon. In the other, I was told that my name is never mentioned when people bring up who could be promoted. We also had to fill out career evaluations and give them to our direct managers, who would then have career discussions with us. I did so, but my manager never had the discussion with me, nor with anyone else on my team. Shortly before I went on maternity leave, I had my yearly evaluation, where I received high marks, but was told that I still wasn’t ready for a promotion, and that maybe 6 months after I came back from leave I would be. I asked what else I could do, and said that I wasn’t sure what else I could do to be promoted, given previous feedback about my name never coming up in regards to that. We also got a new director, and when talking about career goals, I repeated everything above about trying for different promotions and the feedback I had received. The c-suite executive has stood up in front of us multiple times and stated that if we aren’t getting promoted, there’s a reason, and that we should all know the reason why if we’re not. While I agree that we should know the reason, I feel as though I’m getting the run-around. I am the longest serving person in my position in the company. People there for less than a year have been moved to a higher – level position, and have not had to be in multiple departments, even though that was one of the requirements that I was given, plus being there at least a year. I guess I’m just wondering if it’s time to cut my losses, and what everyone else’s opinion is.
The Ginger Ginger* July 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm Have you asked your manager directly? Or spoken in a one on one with them about what your career trajectory looks like at this point? I think it’s worth the shot of being explicit with your manager. “I’m interested in advancing here. What do I need to do to achieve that? I’d appreciate any feedback or insight you might have.” If you haven’t had that convo yet, start there. And if you hear something at that point that makes it seem like you won’t be getting opportunities to move up soon-ish, then it might be time for you to move one. But if you haven’t done that yet (or recently) it’s worth the attempt.
Oswin* July 6, 2018 at 1:19 pm In taking with both my old director, and new one just a few months ago, as well as my manager during my evaluation back in March, I have asked what else I needed to do to advance. I was told by my direct manager that maybe in six months I’ll be ready to move up, and if they decide to go to bat for me, once they give me yet another project to run. That’s why I’m asking if this is realistic, or are they just putting me off more. It seems like moving the goal posts to me ask the time, with getting told “just one more project”, but I’m just not sure if this is normal or not.
Gotham Bus Company* July 6, 2018 at 2:19 pm You asked what you can do to advance in the company and the only thing your manager could come up with was “wait 6 months”? That is NOT an acceptable answer to your question. If they really believe that you’ll be ready for a promotion 6 months from now, then you should be ready now. Yes, they clearly ARE stringing you along while moving the goalposts. (All else being equal, there is no reason to promote Clara, Amy, and Rory but not Oswin.) They will say that they’re trying to motivate you to keep working harder to earn that promotion (which they don’t intend to give you). What they’re really doing is motivating you to leave. Your best bet is to update your resume and look elsewhere.
The Ginger Ginger* July 6, 2018 at 2:58 pm Yeah…that’s not really actionable feedback. If they said something like – improve your metrics in area Y, or get more comfortable with report 22, that’s something for you to DO. Just wait around a bit….is kind of lame. I’d start a low key job search if I were you. It may take six months before you get any traction and then you’ll already be looking if they disappoint you again.
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 12:46 pm This may come across as mean, and I don’t want it to… but it could be you. Maybe you have an attendance issue? Lack social skills? Do just the bare minimum day to day? I don’t know, and I’m not trying to put it all on you because if there is anything that you are doing or not doing, your manager certainly should have discussed it with you by now. So tell your manager you want him/her to be very direct and help you see what’s missing. And then take it all to heart and correct everything you can. I got promotions by always going above and beyond and anticipating what my boss would need, as an example.
Oswin* July 6, 2018 at 2:02 pm No attendance issues, and definitely don’t do just the bare minimum. I’ve also trained in two new-to-company people in my role, so I must be doing something right there. During my evaluation in March, my manager told me that I have the best rapport that they’ve seen with other departments in the company and that I know who to go to to get things accomplished or fixed, and that I work well with all the other departments. However, it would seem that there is something wrong with me, as evidenced by the fact that I can’t get promoted. This company and management does have a tendency to not tell people when something is wrong. They just sweep it under the rug, and that may be what’s happening with me.
Tabby Baltimore* July 6, 2018 at 9:30 pm This popped out at me right away: you “know who to go to to get things accomplished or fixed, and … work well with all the other departments.” My guess is that they don’t plan on promoting you because you are so good at your current job. Why would they want to lose their Fixer? And I agree with all the commenters who suggested that you might want to consider promoting yourself into a job at another company.
TL -* July 7, 2018 at 2:28 am That’s my guess, too – you’re good enough that you’ll be hard to replace, so they’re not going to promote you to put off having to deal with that. Leave and make them replace you anyways.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 5:10 am Ding ding ding we have a winner! I hadn’t read this before my comment below, but yes it absolutely sounds like this is a case of “can’t be replaced so can’t be promoted”. Start looking for (higher) roles outside your company asap, and in the meantime do everything you can to pass on some of those soft skills to other people in your role, so you aren’t the only one who can do it.
Sprechen Sie Talk?* July 6, 2018 at 1:07 pm I would first test the hypothesis that you are unlikely to be promoted by having a frank and to the point discussion as Ginger describes. No tap dancing around the issue, just straight and professional about the likelihood that you have any chance for promotion. If they waffle or can’t get a straight answer, then that’s your answer and its time to move on. I think you know its time, but you may as well give this one last, honest shot to confirm. Sometimes people, for whatever reason, just fall through the cracks. Its happening currently with some of my work buddies due to some unbelievably bad HR policies. Sometimes its a bad manager throwing you under the bus to the higher-ups, just because they don’t personally like you (happened to me). For whatever reason you just aren’t getting traction at this place and probably won’t, regardless of any “plan” they may put you on.
Oswin* July 6, 2018 at 2:05 pm When I was told at my yearly evaluation after being asked about my career plans and if I were still interested in being promoted, that I “may” be ready for a promotion in 6 months time, once I take on yet another project to show I can do it. I should probably take that as a hint. *sigh* Unfortunately, going to another company means I’ll be at the same position I’m at now, with who knows how long to get a chance to move up. However, it would probably be better than spinning my wheels here.
The Ginger Ginger* July 6, 2018 at 3:04 pm Can I push back on that assumption a bit though? I, of course don’t know your industry, but there’s no reason you can’t apply for the next level up position in another company, the same as you’re trying to get where you currently are. Unless there’s some weird industry thing I don’t know about, you can absolutely use your current 3 years of experience to move up elsewhere immediately. External moves do NOT have to be lateral moves. I mean, same as an internal move, don’t try to skip 4 tiers or something, but the next rung up the ladder? Yeah, you can totally do that. And when asked why you’re leaving in an interview, just say that there wasn’t a clear path of advancement for you at your old company and you’re excited to have an opportunity to grow by taking on new and more challenging responsibilities like X at this company where you are currently interviewing!
OldJules* July 6, 2018 at 4:56 pm Why couldn’t you apply to a higher level position externally? Given that you have extensive experience and exposure, apply to the a higher level external role. I don’t play ball when an employer keep on leading me on the way they are with you. Given your capability, apply to higher level jobs externally. Don’t feel that you are stuck to grow only internally. I grew my career by moving up and onwards. Not staying in an organization, hoping for promotion some day. You can do this!
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 5:07 am Yeah, that’s an unusual opinion. Most people who move companies do it BECAUSE they are moving to a higher role. It’s not usual to stay in the same role when you move.
Catalin* July 6, 2018 at 2:36 pm This is gross, and your manager’s (possibly well-intended) horribly misguided policy on not having work changes while personal changes are happening is frankly a little insulting. We can all decide for ourselves when/whether we need work stability, thanks very much!
J.B.* July 6, 2018 at 4:10 pm Possibly well intended, but possibly also pregnancy discrimination. Oswin, please start looking for jobs elsewhere. This place isn’t it. Especially as your child gets a little older, you will adjust to both work and kid and I promise your brain can keep up with it.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 5:05 am I think you should definitely start looking elsewhere. There’s a lot going on here. The comment about “not moving people going through personal changes” is definitely code for “we don’t promote pregnant women”. Which is illegal. And makes me wonder if there is other discrimination at play here too – are you a member of a minority or is there a gender component? Eg the person who got promoted without an interview – was that a man? Are you black and all the white people get promoted ahead of you? Any company that is so blatant about not promoting pregnant women probably has other problems with inequality too. If that’s not the case, then it’s entirely possible that they genuinely do not think you have what it takes. Getting good feedback on a presentation is sometimes just politeness. No ones going to tell someone who just presented that their presentation was bad! So you can’t really take that sort of feedback seriously unless it specifically mentions what you did well. Either way, whether you are being held back because of inequality, or because they genuinely believe you’re not good enough to be promoted, fact is you’re being held back. It’s pretty clear you have no chance of being promoted at this company. So it’s time to look elsewhere.
Batshua* July 6, 2018 at 11:33 am I’m being observed today. It’s mostly NOT an evaluation of my work so much as an observation of how I and my coworkers do our jobs to enable greater efficiency for all of us, but I *still* feel incredibly self-conscious.
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 12:37 pm That’s 100% normal. Any time my boss is standing at my desk so we can work on or go over something together, I forget how to type, how to navigate sites and programs I use every day, and I’m filled with nervous anxiety. My job’s not at risk. My boss knows I do good work. It’s just that being ‘watched’ is an incredibly, instinctively unsettling feeling for humans. Take deep, slow breaths. Go a little slower than you normally do if the nerves are making you fumble. Make a joke about it (if appropriate) to observers. Tap into your inner show-off and pretend you’re a lot more confident than you’re feeling right now. Give ’em a little ‘jazz hands’ TA-DAH. Good luck! I’m sure you’re doing fine. :)
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 5:12 am OMG every time someone is sitting at my desk lately I forget how to type! Hate it.
ANon..* July 6, 2018 at 11:34 am How do you handle it when your boss tells you to do something in X way, but later doesn’t remember saying that and chastises you for doing it that way? It’s happened twice now and I don’t know what to do! Example: I stop by boss’s office to ask if new teapots should have a floral design or an abstract design. He said floral. Later, boss is upset that teapots have floral designs and asks why I did that, and I said because that’s what he told me to do. He claims, “I never said that!” and has absolutely no memory of ever telling me to do it that way. And I have no proof that he ever did, since it was a quick, in-person conversation. It feels overly defensive and futile to repeat that yes, I *did* ask him and he did tell me to do it this way (plus, unlikely to convince him), but I also don’t like having my boss think I doing something wrong or that I’m making decisions like this without consulting him. I thought about sending him all questions via email so I have a written record, but that’s so against our small department’s culture. Plus, it’s pretty unrealistic since I’ll constantly swing by his office to ask a quick question throughout the day (99/100 times it’s fine, there’s just been the two times like this where it’s not). Anything I can do/say to avoid this situation in the future? Or how to deal with it better if it happens again?
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 11:41 am Would it be wildly out-of-step with your department’s culture to send him email follow-ups after ad-hoc meetings? i.e., “Thanks for meeting with me about the teapot designs! Floral patterns are a great choice, and I’m excited about the launch of this new line.” If that wouldn’t work, can you start carrying around a legal pad and taking notes? I did that all the time in a previous position, since a lot of our conversations about ongoing projects happened via instant messager. That won’t solve your problem if your boss is determined to be unreasonable, but laying a paper trail might give you more standing to push back in the future.
Cat Herder* July 7, 2018 at 1:49 pm This. Paper trail (ok, electronic!) every time. Important for personal business (mistakes in credit card payments for example). One of the most important grownup skills my dad taught me.
There is a Life Outside the Library* July 6, 2018 at 11:42 am So, I never had the balls to do this with my last boss, but I wish I would have: Have a straight up conversation about it. Ask him how you can avoid the situation in the future. Honestly, I tried everything else. I even had the emails and she would STILL DENY IT by saying it was my interpretation! And having supervised other people, I can say that sometimes making decisions is hard and I would have to change my mind. In my opinion, that is the root of the issue with bosses who do this- they don’t want to admit that they just changed their mind and communicate that to their staff.
Susan Sto Helit* July 6, 2018 at 11:44 am I was going to suggest an email, but if that’s not an option…a notebook? Write your questions for him down in it, then when you get an answer from him scribble it in. You can say it’s just to refer to so you don’t forget, if he asks.
whistle* July 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm The problem with documenting everything via email is that is still rather confrontational to say “you did say this – here’s the email where you said it!”. I don’t think that will go over well with a boss like this. I like what “Library” said above, if that is in any way possible. I also like what “Susan” said about a notebook. I would not use the notebook to show the boss what he said, but rather I would use if or your own reference and as evidence in case things go really south. Otherwise, I think this is just the downside of working with this boss, and your best bet is to learn to deal with it or look for employment elsewhere.
ANon..* July 6, 2018 at 1:56 pm So I often do take notes in a notebook. It’s certainly helpful in that it keeps me from thinking that I’m going crazy and making up these conversations! But, alas, it’s not so helpful with the problem itself. Primarily, I’m concerned that this will give my boss the overall impression that I’m the type of employee who’ll sometimes make decisions myself on issues that should be consulted with him. I don’t want him to question my judgement! And, of course, I don’t want this to affect my performance evaluation/salary increase. (It’s so frustrating to think that this could affect my salary when I’ve done nothing wrong!) While I’d love to have a straight conversation with him, there is no chance it would go over well – it would be a sure way to sour his opinion of me. I should note that overall I think he values me as an employee – another reason against bringing it up and causing waves. It’s just that I could easily see him listing this as a thing for me to “work on” when, in fact, it’s not a thing at all!
ronda* July 6, 2018 at 6:23 pm I had a boss who took notes on everything in a big spiral note book. And I saw her when the VP of Sales said ” This is what I said” She was…… “I don’t think so, I think it was X…… let me look up my note on it.” His answer was “don’t bother, I trust you” It can work. We were doing the accounting for his sales stuff, so didnt report directly to him, but had lots of interaction.
Fabulous* July 6, 2018 at 2:56 pm I was also going to suggest sending a follow up email to your conversations. Emails feel like more of a CYA than notes on paper, since paper is only your copy whereas email is a shared copy. I wouldn’t necessarily format the email as Jack suggests, but perhaps I’m just more formal when it comes to work correspondence. I’d write something like, “To recap our earlier conversation, I will begin working on a floral design for the new teapots. Let me know if there are any changes, otherwise I will start on the design this afternoon. Thanks!”
Gotham Bus Company* July 6, 2018 at 5:04 pm +1 Boss knows exactly what he’s doing and he will never let you win the debate no matter how much documentation you have. Get out of there ASAP.
Bea* July 6, 2018 at 8:16 pm Has he always been like this? I ask because of my history with my boss developing Alzheimer’s, early onset. His memory started slipping in these kinds of ways but he recognized it and trusted me, so he wouldn’t fight me about a “you said to do this”. I would say that if this is only 1% of the time, it’s his quirk though and you just have to assume sometimes he’ll change his mind and blame you for it in the end. It’s a crappy personality quirk instead of anything malicious. Unless he’s screaming or writing you up, it’s not worth documenting everything so feverishly.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 5:13 am This is the perfect situation for the 2-line follow up email after each verbal decision.
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 11:35 am What are the typical limits of a personal assistant position? I interviewed for a role as a personal assistant to a financial planner, but it turned out that I would have been working out of her home and primarily assisting with around-the-house help with the possibility of later transitioning into an admin role at her small business. The duties would have included grocery shopping and meal prep and laundry, among other things. I was taken aback by how much chore-type work the role included, in addition to more-normal (I assume?) assistant tasks like scheduling appointments and booking airfare. I don’t regret withdrawing from consideration since it wouldn’t have been a good fit for me, but are my expectations of a personal assistant role out of whack, or was this just a weirdly all-encompassing role?
Arielle* July 6, 2018 at 11:40 am Honestly, that sounds in line with how I would think of a personal assistant (as opposed to an administrative assistant or office manager) but I suppose it depends on how the job was advertised. If it looked like a regular office job from the description then it’s pretty weird.
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 11:52 am I was referred for the position by my roommate, who works for the financial planner’s husband. They pitched the job to me as “personal assistant,” but the job description I was given during the interview said “household manager/personal assistant.” The financial planner is a lovely woman (and honestly, I would’ve been happy to work for her in other circumstances, but I don’t want to do someone else’s laundry!) but very disorganized, so I wasn’t surprised that the title and description changed a lot between the referral and the interview. I don’t think laundry and cleaning the basement would be out of line for a household manager, but it seemed odd to me for an assistant.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 5:15 am It sounds like she isn’t sure what she wants – it’s probably not an intentional bait-and-switch, just her not realising what the terms are usually used to mean.
Susan Sto Helit* July 6, 2018 at 11:46 am That sounds less like a personal assistant, and more like she wants a housekeeper/servant.
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 11:54 am That’s exactly what I thought! We’re in a major metropolitan area, both housekeeping and laundry services are pretty readily available (and probably a lot cheaper than a salary and benefits for a full-time employee).
Susan Sto Helit* July 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm Yes, it’s weird. If you’re going to pay someone to do that, wouldn’t you want someone with actual skills in those areas? And what transferrable skills would someone ultimately looking for an office/administrative role (which would be more standard for a personal assistant) pick up from doing your laundry?
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 3:59 pm I honestly thought about it, haha! But unfortunately, the job would have required use of my personal vehicle, and she made it clear that she didn’t want to reimburse for gas/maintenance unless I agreed to a below-market salary OR a significant cut in benefits. So ultimately, not a good fit for me right now.
Anonymosity* July 6, 2018 at 3:18 pm Yeah, if I could afford a PA, I wouldn’t make them do things a housekeeper could do. I’d just hire a housekeeper. And a chef.
Bex* July 6, 2018 at 3:13 pm That sounds like a personal assistant role to me, where what you were describing sounds more like an executive assistant.
Delta Delta* July 7, 2018 at 2:20 am When I think of a personal assistant it always makes me think of Elaine from Seinfeld trying to help Mr. Pitt pick out a pair of socks.
Job Switch and Wait for Insurance* July 6, 2018 at 11:35 am How do people handle health insurance transition when only one of the couple has that benefit from work, and that person (me!) wants to change jobs? My spouse works on a contract basis with no benefits, and him switching to a full time job with health insurance benefits before I change jobs might not be an option. I’m wondering how others in similar situations navigate the typical 3-month wait for insurance to kick in when starting new jobs. (And how common is that waiting period anyway?)
Arielle* July 6, 2018 at 11:44 am This is of course anecdotal but I have never had a job where insurance didn’t kick in on the first day. It may be different in other industries or locations but I’ve never had any wait in NYC or metro Boston. If there is a gap, then you should be offered the option of electing COBRA, which will be very expensive but will cover everyone on the policy.
Job Switch and Wait for Insurance* July 6, 2018 at 11:48 am I happen to be in NYC and did have the 3-month wait at the beginning of my current job. (Though I work for a tiny company, which may explain that suckiness…) COBRA is definitely an option, but ohhhh boy, talk about expensive! :(
Arielle* July 6, 2018 at 12:05 pm The thing that a lot of people don’t know is that you can elect COBRA retroactively for 60 days. (At least, this was true at one point, not sure if the ACA has changed this.) So if neither of you have any major ongoing medical expenses and you think you can swing three months uninsured, and then you get into an accident or something after a month, you can retroactively elect COBRA and pay the premiums and be covered.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 12:10 pm This is still the case, the ACA did not have any effect. The key is that you have to NOT decline the coverage. If you decline and then change your mind, the coverage is not retroactive to the last insured day. If you just sit on the form for 59 days, then it will be retroactive. Also FYI you can opt for coverage for any combination of individuals on the plan, it doesn’t have to be all or nothing.
Jerry Vandesic* July 6, 2018 at 10:43 pm You actually have more than 60 days. The number is 105 days. 60 days to retroactively accept COBRA, and then 45 days to make your first payment. If you don’t make your payment, your retroactive acceptance of COBRA goes away and doesn’t cost you anything.
rubyrose* July 6, 2018 at 3:00 pm Yes to this! It has typically taken companies I’ve left 30 days to send the initial COBRA paperwork to me. I have used this approach (don’t elect unless I have to) several times and it has worked great.
SophieChotek* July 6, 2018 at 2:55 pm Yes same for me too. I had to wait 3 months for my current health insurance to kick in. It is a small company.
Dreaded HR* July 6, 2018 at 11:56 am Depending on the size of the company, they are legally obligated to offer insurance to begin within the first 60 days. The norm really depends on the sector in which you work. In my experience it is first of the month following 30 days of employment. You have options though! – Timing – many insurance plans say that your coverage will extend until the end of the month in which you were employed. If you can set your separation date for the beginning of the month, it buys time for your new coverage to kick in – COBRA, it is expensive but will provide you coverage – Negotiating for new employer to pay for COBRA coverage until new coverage kicks in – Negotiating with former employer to pay COBRA in lieu of or in addition to a severance and/or bonus (this one is much trickier to do) – Roll the dice and go without coverage for a bit. A fun fact about COBRA, it varies a little from plan to plan, but the standard is that you have 30 days to elect coverage. If you elect coverage, it postdates to the date you became eligible for coverage (probably the first of the month following your separation from previous company) so you can elect it later in the month if you realize something is coming up (or has come up) that will require coverage and it will go back to the beginning of the period and provide continuous coverage All of this is specific to both your current and future employers insurance plans so I cannot give too many hard and fast but it is a good conversation to have with the benefits person at your current company when you give notice (or just before if you trust their discretion) and at your future employer at the time of their offer.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 12:11 pm It’s 60 days and that’s set by law, it won’t vary plan to plan. What can vary is when your insurance company becomes notified of the “qualifying event” and sends you a continuation notice, but that will only add time to the clock, it will never be shorter than 60 days.
Job Switch and Wait for Insurance* July 6, 2018 at 12:57 pm Dreaded HR and Natalie, this is super helpful, thank you! I’m going to save this in my notes. :)
Dreaded HR* July 6, 2018 at 1:05 pm You’re right. Thanks for the correction Natalie. 60 days with retroactive.
Melody Pond* July 6, 2018 at 8:47 pm Depending on the size of the company, they are legally obligated to offer insurance to begin within the first 60 days. I don’t think this is quite right. My understanding is that the ACA set the maximum length of time you could make somebody wait for benefits, at 90 days total. Therefore, what most companies do (if they want a long waiting period), is have a maximum “waiting period” of 60 days – i.e., medical benefits are effective on the first of the month following a 60 day waiting period. This way, the total amount of time waiting for medical coverage (from date of hire to first day of coverage) is never more than 90 days. Also, this rule doesn’t apply to dental coverage, although many employers follow this same guideline with their dental insurance, just to be consistent. But dental policies can still have a 90 day waiting period. Also – yes, normally, if your last day at work is at the beginning of the month, your coverage will end on the last day of that month. Most policies should have a member handbook that specifies this.
ronda* July 6, 2018 at 6:40 pm I went on ACA instead of COBRA. the cost was about the same, but the subsidy at the time was not available with COBRA, but available with ACA. The subsidy depends on your household income, so this late in the year and with a working spouse, probably no subsidy. And my preferred provider is in the ACA market in my state…. the number of providers available in my state really dropped from 2016 to 2018 tho. My first job after being laid off at a company I was at for a very long time was for a small company and did have a 3 month wait on benefits…. then had layoffs at 2 month mark and got rid of me. (I had been out of work for 2 years before starting, so no working the 3 month gap of getting COBRA) The company I am with now is much bigger, but not huge and they had no waiting period on medical benefits. So it really depends on where you end-up. I was a contractor at this company for 6 months before being hired as an employee, so was on ACA with no subsidy because of the income (but no benefits for contractor).
Ruth* July 6, 2018 at 6:57 pm My last job had a several-month delay for benefits, and I negotiated to have no delay. In fact it was a show stopper for me. If you are quitting a job to join a company, they should never delay your benefits.
Wondering* July 6, 2018 at 11:37 am Has there been an update yet from the guy who got a fake reference from someone in his network and the employee turned out to be a disaster? I am really hoping there is one for that letter. I want to see the reference liar get her comeuppance.
justcourt* July 6, 2018 at 11:37 am I am wondering if I can get some opinions on how to address a question I know I will get during interviews- which is why, despite recently graduating from law school, I don’t want to practice law. For some context, much of my experience during law school was related to immigration law. I worked on many asylum cases and self-petition cases for victims of domestic violence. I also worked with clients who were the victims of genocide and other crimes against humanity. I am most passionate about immigration law, specifically the human rights side of immigration law, and working with immigrants, but I also realized that I was going to burn out in that line of work. I hate to admit it, but pressing torture victims for more details of their torture and trying to find enough evidence of abuse to convince the government that a victim is really a victim started to affect me outside of work. I am now looking for work involving immigrant advocacy, but I would not be representing them. I am concerned that employers might interpret my concern about burning out to mean that I would face similar issues in a more hands off position. Do you all think I should mentioned my concerns about burnout/wanting a more hands off role as an explanation for why I don’t want to practice immigration law? If so, do you have any thoughts on phrasing? If not, do you have any ideas on how I should answer the question? Thanks!
Teapot librarian (and recovering lawyer)* July 6, 2018 at 11:46 am I don’t know that you would get asked that question. A lot of people in advocacy have law degrees. And a lot of attorneys don’t work directly with clients. If you do get asked the question, you can say that you discovered through clinical work that your strengths lie in areas outside of direct client representation. You don’t need to say anything about burn out.
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm +1 Make this about finding your strengths in other work rather than direct client representation. Do not talk about burnout/stress.
LCL* July 6, 2018 at 12:37 pm I think anyone who works in immigration law will understand why someone else working in the field would want to take a slightly different direction right now. Don’t sell yourself short; an advocate who is an actual lawyer in the field they are advocating for is a very good hiring choice.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 2:49 pm See if there are any stats on burn out rates. I was in an arena and a cohort said to me, “The burn out rate for this arena is five years.” I almost fell over that someone would be so candid and that the burnout came up so fast. (I was younger then and not aware of stuff.) Maybe you can google and find something? My thought is that if the burnout rate is widely known then end of problem, that means people will expect you to have changed direction.
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 9:11 pm Nothing to add directly addressing the question; I just wanted to say that you absolutely do not need to “hate to admit” that pressing for details of torture was emotionally draining work. Of course it was! I admire people who advocate in these really challenging areas—it’s important work, whether you’re someone’s personal representative or an administrator/coordinator. Best of luck to you.
Anne (with an “e”)* July 6, 2018 at 11:39 am My students’ AP scores will be released online @ 4:00 pm. I’m going crazy.
Cats On A Bench* July 6, 2018 at 3:29 pm My son got his yesterday! He got a 4 in AP World History! So excited! I was a nervous wreck for him leading up to the exam. He was very chill about it though. I can’t imagine what it’s like if you have several students you are rooting for. Hope your “kids” did well!
Anne (with an “e”)* July 6, 2018 at 4:26 pm Congratulations to your son! That is quite an accomplishment. :) After refreshing my screen over and over at the AP Central website they finally published the results @ 4:20 (not @ 4:00). All my students received 4’s and 5’s. They worked so hard. I worked so hard. Now we know. Whew…
It’s what I want* July 7, 2018 at 7:11 pm That’s awesome. My son took AP statistics in high school and he was disappointed and embarrassed that he got a 3. He felt like he let his (Excellent) teacher down. In college, he changed his major numerous times and ended up majoring in statistics! He’s had great jobs since then working in data analysis and is considering grad school for data science. I kind of want to look up his teacher and tell him:)
Anne (with an “e”)* July 8, 2018 at 12:58 pm He should have never felt embarrassed or ashamed about making a 3! A 3 is fine. It is considered a passing score and many colleges and universities give credit for a 3. I know that if any of my students had made a 3, I certainly would not have been disappointed. I strongly encourage you to contact his teacher and tell him about your son’s accomplishments.
I'm Not Phyllis* July 6, 2018 at 11:42 am Dress code question – what are peoples’ thoughts on wearing shorts and tanks to work? I work for a non-profit agency that deals with a variety of vulnerable populations, so it’s fairly normal to dress casually (jeans are pretty common). But lately a lot of people are wearing tanks (like, underwear tanks that come in a package), ripped shorts, spaghetti straps, etc. and I can’t help but think that this pushes the boundaries a little bit too far. Or maybe I’m just behind the times?
Washi* July 6, 2018 at 11:58 am Why does working with vulnerable populations = casual dress? Are people doing physical labor? Unless there’s some kind of business purpose to it, I would say that ripped shorts and spaghetti straps is a lot more casual than I would expect, and you are not behind the times :)
Bumblebee* July 6, 2018 at 12:10 pm Not sure if this relates to Not Phyllis, but a lot of time it requires site visits, going from place, to place, and needing to be comfortable in different kinds of weather. A certain amount of casual can also be to make clients more at-ease. Definitely not under-tank and shorts level of casual though, I think that is too far.
Washi* July 6, 2018 at 3:38 pm Yeah, I have a job that involves a lot of home visits, and while I wish I could wear shorts in this heat wave, we are still supposed to be business casual. Plus when you’re visiting people in their homes, it’s important to remember you are at work and maintain those boundaries. Our clients are supposed feel comfortable with us, but not like we are, I don’t know, buddies.
Seriously?* July 6, 2018 at 12:57 pm I don’t think spaghetti straps are necessarily overly casual. It depends on the shirt and if it shows bra straps. I’m thinking of nice silk shirts with spaghetti straps and a strapless bra.
NicoleK* July 6, 2018 at 11:59 am Shorts and tanks are usually a no-no. People either don’t know or don’t care. My coworker wore shorts to work twice. Shorts are not allowed in my company. But I’m not saying anything cause I’m not her boss.
Murphy* July 6, 2018 at 11:59 am If you live in a place where it’s hot, and people dress casually, I think shorts should be allowed. But it’s OK to have some standards, that they need to be clean, not ripped (purposely or otherwise), or of a certain length. I try to avoid spaghetti straps, or anything that would show my bra, in any professional context, even casual.
Higher Ed Database Dork* July 6, 2018 at 12:14 pm That all sounds too casual to me. My workplace is pretty casual but underwear-like tanks, anything ripped, etc is a no-go. I think longer shorts in a nicer fabric, like chino bermudas, might be okay depending on the weather and what kind of top and shoes you wear. I’ve work sleeveless tops at work before, but definitely nothing spaghetti strap or something that looked like underwear.
KR* July 6, 2018 at 12:23 pm So I wear shorts and tank tops to work when I’m in the office and not on the job site. Usually flip flops too. I work in a role where I usually don’t have to interact in person with the public or any co-workers except the same two people in my office every day. I think in an instance where I was serving the public I would resort to a standard jeans, sneakers, and polo shirt type workwear. Casual, dependable, cheap, and somewhat professional.
An Elephant Never Baguettes* July 6, 2018 at 12:25 pm It’s pretty standard at my office but I work in a very casual industry for an even more casual company.
Former Retail Manager* July 6, 2018 at 1:40 pm I think that a Bermuda short and wide strap, thick fabric tank top/basically sleeveless shirt might be okay for ladies, assuming they were pressed and looked nice, but ripped shorts and spaghetti straps…no, just no. And those thin Hanes undershirts in the package….again…no.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 2:53 pm That sounds normal for that arena. Check your employee handbook though. Someone wears a tank and then ten people wear tanks. If it says in the handbook not to wear tanks, then don’t. This is an arena where things are allowed to slide and slide, then one day management ropes it back in with an announcement, “no more tanks”.
Jennifer* July 6, 2018 at 2:55 pm It can get to 106 where I live. The hotter you get, the less you care. Not really an issue here.
PrincessJasmine* July 6, 2018 at 11:43 am Ok so about 6 weeks ago I posted anonymously about the slow failure of my business and my feelings of being stuck. At the time, some of the commenteriat gave me some honest and painful, but helpful opinions (I believe one comment was “you don’t have a business. You have a very expensive hobby”). Well now we’re in the middle of liquidating the business, with my colleague buying up the assets and carrying on, but my own involvement ending. I THINK I want to go to university and do a Masters in Library Science, but probably not till 2019 as I need some time to decompress. The real question is: what to do until then. We formally stopped trading last Friday, and I just don’t know what to look for. I signed up to a hospitality temping agency, and have been sent to a different place every day this week, but it’s just exhausting and everyone else is a child- well late teens, early 20s. Having been a jack of all trades at my own company for so long, what do I even look for? Ideally I’d like a nice, non-stressful office job to keep me going for a year, but I’m having trouble organising my experience into a cohesive narrative or set of skills for my CV. I don’t know if I want advice or just to vent, but there it is.
Seriously?* July 6, 2018 at 11:47 am Have you looked into temping agencies that are not hospitality? That might be a better fit.
A Non E. Mouse* July 6, 2018 at 12:32 pm Have you looked into temping agencies that are not hospitality? That might be a better fit. Seconded. I liked most of my temp assignments when that’s what I was doing, and you might even be able to stay on at the agency while in school later (mine offered health insurance after X number of hours with them, and you only needed Y number of hours to maintain it after that) – there are a LOT of gigs with flexible or non-standard hours that could fit into a university class schedule.
PrincessJasmine* July 6, 2018 at 12:47 pm I have, but because I don’t have any formal office experience (I did a lot of admin things in the course of previous job, but harder to quantify) nobody will give me a look.
fromscratch* July 6, 2018 at 12:23 pm Maybe try temp agencies like Office Team or Robert Half – they will have you complete skills assessments for basic computer software and make placements based on those results. They will also help with your resume. One of my best temp jobs was sitting at a reception desk just so someone was there to accept UPS packages when they were delivered.
Librarian person* July 6, 2018 at 1:05 pm You might have already done this, and depending on how big your area is there might not be a lot of options, but have you looked for para-professional jobs in a library? Only a small portion of folks who work in libraries actually need the MLIS (like, literally just the librarian positions require that) but a lot of positions don’t require a specific degree. You say you “think” you want to go to library school, this might help you decide if it is actually something you want to do. Or even help you narrow down the niche within the field – public libraries, academic libraries, corporate libraries, private libraries…they can all be very different places to work.
MariantheLibrarian* July 6, 2018 at 1:10 pm Since you’re thinking about a MLIS, have you considered working for your local public library? Not all staff positions need the degree, since some are more office-based positions (like volunteer coordinator, office manager, librarian assistant), etc. Your post sounds like you’re not sure about the Library Science degree (MLIS) and that could be a recipe for disaster later. The field is changing drastically and rapidly — what used to be about research and information is now becoming about data and technology. When I did my MLIS, there were a lot of people who dropped out of the program because of that change (I was almost one of them). Use this time off to figure out what you want from the MLIS so that when you do start the degree, it’s easier to stay focused on the end goal and you’ve picked a program that will help you achieve that.
pleaset* July 6, 2018 at 2:04 pm I have an MLIS and have some comments: the field is changing a lot and also jobs in libraries (particulary academic libraries, but also other kinds) are hard to find. That said, there is also tremendous opportunities for using the degree in work outside libraries – in digital asset management, communications, fundraising research, knowledge management, content management, user experience. Don’t burn money going to library school without some decent goals in mind. BUT if you can afford it pretty easily, it’s actually a very flexible and useful degree if can position yourself properly. I went to library school mid-career, while staying at my old job in communications. Had enough money that cost was not a problem. I thought it was great – though I haven’t changed careers, what I learned in school helps a lot in my work. And I watched younger classmates who were very motivated get very interesting jobs in a variety of fields.
There is a Life Outside the Library* July 6, 2018 at 2:30 pm Adding on to this, unless you’re pretty lucky with being in the right place at the right time, it’s hard to land a librarian job without moving.
PrincessJasmine* July 6, 2018 at 4:46 pm Thanks for the advice guys! Yeah, I figured I probably wouldn’t end up actually working in a library due to the changes in public libraries and funding (I don’t know how it is in the US, but here in the UK library services have been gutted). One of the reasons I’m not launching straight into a Masters is to give myself time to figure out if I am 100% sure, and what I want to go into afterwards (I definitely DON’T have money to burn on this). I think for the moment I’ll look for a temp agency that does skills testing so my cv doesn’t have to speak for itself. Lots of agencies here in London so… to google!
ronda* July 6, 2018 at 7:00 pm my impression is that everyone and his brother on the internet comments seems to be considering a Lib Sci degree… can we really need that many? I was recently unemployed in the states and my Labor Department did offer some services to try to help you figure out what you might like to do… like skill testing, help with resume, career prospects info in local markets for different types of jobs. Maybe your area has some similar services available ? I also went to a couple of programs at our Technology Association of Georgia (the state I live in) and one of them was focused on the need in our state for more trade type of degrees (electricians, etc). Maybe your area has some similar associations with programs where you can learn more about some of the local opportunities… and if you are not interested in technology careers… maybe there is a similar type of association for a work area you are interested in.
Kraken* July 6, 2018 at 11:47 am Freelance writers, especially tech writers: What surprised you most when you switched from 9-5 to freelance? Especially what pitfalls should I try to anticipate? I know it will be slow to start and that I will have to work hard to get to my comfortable income level, but otherwise I feel pretty naive. How much financial cushion should I try to accumulate before quitting in terms of X months of salary? I can make a spreadsheet but I’m not sure what to include on it besides normal bills. I won’t lose health coverage because I’m on my spouse’s plan. I’m a bit sad and scared to leave my job, as I feel like I could still do more good work there. However, the job is definitely in better condition than when I found it and I have always found my side tech writing very engaging and fulfilling. I’ve been wanting tech writing to be a bigger part of my career for awhile now.
Bumblebee* July 6, 2018 at 12:15 pm What kind of income are you making from your side gig tech writing now, and what does that translate to per hour, out of curiosity? I think half the battle is building relationships with editors now, so that when you have more time to devote to writing, you’ll be more likely to get the work. I only freelance part-time, a few paid articles per year, so I may be less helpful than someone who has made the switch to full-time.
Fiennes* July 6, 2018 at 12:27 pm My main advice would be: 1) budget VERY conservatively 2) structure your days—you can be more flexible but will probably be more productive with some targeted work hours 3) when you get up, make your bed and put on non-pajamas. For me, it’s amazing how important this is, like telling my brain “rest is over now”
H.C.* July 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm Yes; also, make sure you bill accordingly (esp to cover self-employment taxes.)
ronda* July 6, 2018 at 7:07 pm if you like our 9-5 and think you could do it with fewer hours devoted….. maybe you could talk to your employer about it and be able to spend enough time on your freelance, but still have some of the benefits of a 9-5?
AnonJobHunt* July 6, 2018 at 11:47 am I’m considering a career shift to customer success in the tech industry, and I’d love to hear from people who got in to this field as a career shift: what did you do before, (how) did it lead you to customer success, what did you do (framing of skills/experience in your application, referral by a current employee, etc) to land the role? My background: I have an undergrad degree in communications, a master’s in an arts field, and have worked as an out-of-school time educator, project manager for several publishers, have food service/event management customer service experience, and have been with my current organization (a tech nonprofit, where i do comms, event organizing, fundraising, manage colleagues and volunteers, and interact with our community in person and online) about 3-1/2 years. I’m interested in making this move because I love direct interaction with people (even when it’s challenging), I have some technical skills (and an educator’s mindset) but am not interested in being a programmer, and I have needed to get the heck out of my current organization for far too long. Your advice or anecdotes are appreciated.
Higher Ed Database Dork* July 6, 2018 at 12:10 pm I didn’t really do a career change, but I started out in tech customer service after graduating with an English BA and my previous work experience was mostly office admin work. Everything you’ve describe here sounds great – that you love interacting with people, you have an educator’s mindset, and you have experience at a tech nonprofit. What I look for in the more customer service roles is an ability to bridge the worlds between non-technical and technical – the customers need a guide who can be patient with them, explain things in terms they understand, etc. Emphasize your strengths in these areas. For interviews, have some examples ready of times you were able to help a frustrated person using these skills. Honestly you sound great to me and I don’t think it will be difficult for you to get into tech customer service. Higher ed is a good place to look, because they are often looking for people with these skills, and you don’t quite have the volume or demanding atmosphere of something like a big software company. On the flip side, pay tends to be low. Good luck with your search!
AnonJobHunt* July 6, 2018 at 12:26 pm Thanks for the encouragement and tips! One thing I do, comms-wise, at my current job, is break down big news tech issues that relate to my org’s mission, in a way regular folks can understand (e.g. things like the Cambridge Analytica/FB scandal). They’ve been pretty popular and have helped me gain a deeper knowledge of technical topics, too. I really appreciate your feedback. :)
fromscratch* July 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm I am now leading a client success team at a tech company after 7 years of other somewhat related work. My path: started doing data entry in learning management systems as a temp. Was hired full time to do administrative work in the same customer’s learning management system. Local competitor poached me to do a more complicated version of the same type of work and run their learning help desk. Turned that into consulting for a learning management system software company for 3 years, where I got to work hand-in-hand with their CSMs. Education wise, I have a double major in history and international studies, so I mentioned my skills in research and problem solving, as well as the ability to parse out troubleshooting and implementation steps into easy to understand pieces of information. I would say your background would offer many of the same skills & benefits. Depending on the company, client success teams can be in charge of onboarding customers, training, customer support, and/or account management. So focus on the educator’s mindset and ability to communicate. There are also some great resources you could start reading so that you are familiar with terminology for cover letters and resume building – check out the free materials on CSM platforms like Natero, Bolstra. Also, clientsuccess.com has a great free resources section and weekly newsletter. I used resume samples from jobhero.com to write my resume in a way that framed previous tasks/responsibilities in CSM terms. Good luck!
Imposter Syndrome* July 6, 2018 at 11:47 am I recently started a new job after being unemployed for a while following my previous company shutting down. In my mind, this position is a “reach” position and a huge career step, but everyone else thinks it is a natural position for me and on-par with previous jobs. I’ve basically gone from a small organization where I was a big fish to a large organization where I’m trying to find my place but am an executive. Does that make sense? I’m feeling better in the position and learning the norms of the office; however, there is a Board meeting coming up soon. I’m expected to attend and participate. I’m low-key terrified. I can be awkward in social situations and know that I’ll be the only new face so there will be lots of people asking me questions and wanting to talk. I’ve always been terrible at networking. To make matters worse, the first afternoon is a “fun event” where we’ll be outside in very hot and humid weather doing an activity. I am overweight and out of shape. Nothing about that is appealing to me, but I cannot beg off because it will be my first interactions and impressions with the Board. Does anyone have any advice or words of wisdom for managing the 3 day event and overall making a good impression on the Board?
Reference Woes* July 6, 2018 at 12:26 pm Oh man, I hate hot outdoor activities at work! My best advice is just psych yourself up every morning with your favorite tunes and use your favorite makeup/hair product/whatever and wear your most comfortable cute clothes. Do a power stance in the mirror, I mean it! Do everything you can to make yourself feel good! 3 days is long but you can power through it. And when I have anxious thoughts I just put them in a parking lot in my brain and say “I will worry about that once its over”. Fake it til you make it, and good luck!!
Imposter Syndrome* July 6, 2018 at 1:07 pm Thank you so much Reference Woes! I’m going to have to make a list of positive affirmations to tell myself each morning/break/meal/etc. I know I’m worrying more than I should, but still…ugh!
JessicaTate* July 6, 2018 at 2:59 pm +1 to Reference Woes’ ideas. Psyching yourself up is key. A colleague and I used to have a running reference to a scene in the movie “Sunshine Cleaners” where Amy Adams gives herself the mirror, psych-up, pep talk – because we had a part of our jobs that was a little de-spiriting (much like you describe), and we found this to be an important way to help us push through.
ronda* July 6, 2018 at 7:18 pm i am an out of shape person and hate the heat and sunshine….. I hear that you have to go, but you can protect yourself some too…. “no big deal, but I don’t do well in the heat, so I am going to take it a little easy with whatever.” And remember they hired you because they like you. You are excited to learn all this stuff, meet everyone, do whatever is the mission of this group, etc……. all positives! Ask the board members about their background and why they choose this board. I am sure it will be fascinating.
Jessi* July 6, 2018 at 10:13 pm Could you make yourself a list of ‘go to’ questions for networking? Almost like a little script that you memorise and use to help guide you? For example Hi, lovely to meet you! I’m x teams new Y position. Then a question about them: what is your role/ how long have you been with the company/ have you been to this event before? This will give you a base to start the conversation rolling.
I Have A Chihuahua* July 6, 2018 at 11:48 am Hi! Long time reader, first time commenter. This time, I half need advice and half need to vent. I was recently put in charge of a project, but one of the team members is an anxious mess. That’s not an official diagnosis, but how everyone perceives him. He can go on for well over an hour repeating himself at how customers are picky (his word) and that they demand too much, using the same expressions and phrases over and over and over. He also asks “I did well, right? That was the right decision, isn’t?” and other variations several times during his monologue. You can’t really have a conversation with him. He interrupts all the time and if you try to go back to what you were doing, in less than a minute he starts again! Two days ago, for example, he was supposed to be having lunch but in half an hour he only took one bite of his sandwich. That’s how much he talks! I do have a diagnosis of anxiety and depression and a couple of years of therapy under my belt, and I and maybe projecting when I say I recognize myself in him at certain moments. However, I do try to be kind to him while other coworkers look for pretexts to leave the room and avoid asking him anything if they don’t absolutely have to. The supervisor told me that I would be best not to ask any input from him, just tell him clearly what to do and how I want him to do it. I did that already. I sent him a 3-page document on Monday with instructions and then I notified him via WhatsApp that it was in his inbox (he doesn’t check his work email, but that’s a different problem). He seems to be responding well so far, but I’m still worried. The deadline for this project is in three weeks, and in the previous project, despite being enthusiastic at the beginning, by the end he forgot all about it and the day of the deadline he was scrambling to gather material and finish. All in all, as a team we managed to deliver a good result, but not thanks to him. So, the questions is: how can I make sure he’s consistently working while minimizing the risk of him perceiving I’m breathing on his neck and thus making him more nervous than usual? I’m aware that I have no control over how others perceive me – or anyone else, for that matter -, but any pointers would be really appreciated. Specially because I don’t want to freak out alongside him if I notice him being the cause of us falling behind. Thanks so much!
gecko* July 6, 2018 at 1:36 pm It might be a kindness–though a lot more work from you–to become a little more micromanage-y with him, with more frequent check-ins and very clear guidelines. Like, we have a twice-a-week meeting and here are the things you’re expected to have done by then kind of effort. You could also say, “I notice you get worried about whether you’re making the wrong decision, so I want to have more frequent check-ins and clear guidelines to alleviate those concerns.” If you’re stuck with him you’re stuck with him, but he doesn’t sound super helpful for the team.
Observer* July 6, 2018 at 6:21 pm Well, your manager gave you some good advice. You need to take that a bit further, though, I think. I’m with Gecko – I think you’re going to have to manage him a bit more closely than the others. And, yes, assign tasks to him, and the less judgement he needs to exercise, the better. It’s not going to do much for his career, but that’s not something you can do anything about at this point.
TL -* July 7, 2018 at 2:38 am I would be very clear about deadlines and check-ins; set them up more frequently. Also, as much as you can, let him deal with the consequences of his own time management – if he’s scrambling to finish on the day of the deadline but still gets an acceptable product to you at 5pm Tuesday, his stress on Tuesday isn’t your problem. Second, grey rock him as much as possible. If he tells you the customers are being awful, nod and say “That does sound difficult. Just a reminder, I need a finished graphic by 5 pm Tuesday.” If he goes into shame or stress spiral, interrupt to say, “It’s not a problem as long as I get it by 5 pm Tuesday. I do need to go do X now; I’ll check in with you on Friday.” Then do a brief check in on Friday, with the same process – don’t spend ages listening to him complain; cut him off politely and remind him of the deadline then leave.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 5:41 am I second the check-ins. If you give him a task that should take a week, get him to send you a link to what he’s done so far (or send you the draft or whatever makes sense) on day 3. When I worked with a remote team with different timezoneswe used a shared drive and I would review documents each evening at a set time and leave comments/ tracked changes. We also made great use of comments and square brackets/highlight to explain what would go in here eg [add in summary of three previous projects here] etc. It’s totally possible to review unfinished work and get an idea of how it’s peogressing.
Shades of Blue* July 6, 2018 at 11:48 am begin eye-roll/ “After 4 months Jupiter will end the retrograde next Tuesday, July 10″…does this mean my Murphy’s Law of a coworker (a Sagittarius btw) will not be late every day, complete a single assignment, and not have their laptop/power/car have “unexplained issues” anymore?!?!? /end eye-roll
strawberries and raspberries* July 6, 2018 at 2:23 pm If you want a serious answer, it sounds like you’re likening Jupiter retrograde to Mercury retrograde, which is the usual time for people to be late and break things and have major miscommunications, and that’s not exactly how it works. Jupiter retrogrades have more to do with introspection and examining beliefs and reevaluating big dreams, and by the time Jupiter is direct you’re usually ready to take action on what you were chewing on during the retrograde. If anything, your Sagittarius coworker was perhaps having some major personal transformation they were dealing with and clearly they were not managing it well (although you did say they were a “Murphy’s Law” of a coworker, so I bet they’re probably like this often but are usually able to laugh it off or deliver in spite of being disorganized). So the issues may still be there, but maybe they won’t feel QUITE as annoying as they have. #ymmv #ilikeastrology
Evil HR Person* July 6, 2018 at 4:45 pm I was going to say, “that’s Mercury retrograde.” #ilikeastrologytoo
Ann* July 6, 2018 at 11:49 am My new manager is big on frequent reviews and feedback and has asked us to do evaluations of our coworkers. There are 3 other people on my team and I enjoy working with all of them, so it is easy to talk about their strengths. How do I approach talking about their weaknesses? There are some minor things I’ve noticed, like being a little scatterbrained or having time management issues, but nothing so big that it actual impacts their work, so it feels very nit picky to comment on. For one of my coworkers, I can’t think of anything negative to say except “it would be better if we could clone him”, so I’m really not sure what to write there. Also does anybody have suggestions for how to get the most out of a self-evaluation? I can certainly think of things I want to improve on, but I don’t want to make it seem like I have huge flaws. My manager generally doesn’t pay too much attention to what we’re doing (since he also manages a problem team, while ours runs smoothly), so I worry that if I’m overly critical of myself that will be his main takeaway. My last boss criticized me for making a lot of mistakes during my last yearly review (which new boss was at) and while I pointed out there was no evidence to back up his claims (because they were untrue), I’m not sure how much that has colored my manager’s opinion of my work.
Margery* July 6, 2018 at 2:49 pm Why do you have to give any negative feedback? I have to admit I’d definitely not want to do that. Who knows how anonymous this will be. If you have to give negative make it something very small.
Ann* July 6, 2018 at 3:12 pm There’s a section in the form he emailed out for it. But I’m wondering if I just typed up paragraphs instead, maybe he won’t mind.
Bex* July 6, 2018 at 3:18 pm I would probably say that I don’t feel like the coworker has any major weaknesses, and instead use the space for potential areas for growth.
McWhadden* July 6, 2018 at 11:50 am Anyone see the Dear Prudence article about a woman who took a picture of a co-worker and posted it on a forum “to discuss the obese people in our lives” and then the co-worker found out about the photo? Although they don’t know it was the LW who did it, yet. Reminded me of several columns on here. https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/07/dear-prudence-im-not-the-father-of-my-cousins-baby.html
Higher Ed Database Dork* July 6, 2018 at 12:00 pm I saw that! It’s so awful! I was like, what the hell do you need to “discuss” about obese people? I like Prudie’s response, though.
McWhadden* July 6, 2018 at 12:05 pm While I really like Ortberg, I do think sometimes he isn’t the best at office questions. But maybe I’m just used to AAM level quality on those. But he nailed this one.
KR* July 6, 2018 at 12:26 pm I have to agree. Sometimes he answers work related questions and I really disagree or think his advice is out of touch. I appreciate the entertainment though and I think his other advice is spot on.
Arielle* July 6, 2018 at 12:27 pm I freaking adore Daniel and have ever since The Toast days but I do find that his workplace advice reflects the fact that (as he admits) he has not really ever worked in an office as an adult. I think it would be cool if Dear Prudence “referred” people to AAM like Captain Awkward sometimes does.
Victoria Nonprofit (USA)* July 6, 2018 at 4:56 pm Yeah, I’m always sort of annoyed that he answers workplace questions. He doesn’t have any expertise. Stay in your lane!
Observer* July 6, 2018 at 6:23 pm Yeah, the workplace advice is just really poor. But, this wasn’t really a workplace question. And the response was spot on. What an awful thing to do!
Rebecca* July 6, 2018 at 12:01 pm I just read this. As an overweight woman in the workforce, I would be LIVID if one of my coworkers did this, or anyone else for that matter. “To discuss the obese people in our lives.” How incredibly offensive. I would love to find out what happened.
McWhadden* July 6, 2018 at 12:10 pm I love that the LW said she thought Shannon should have been too embarrassed to say anything. As though she is the one who has done something wrong by existing!
Rebecca* July 6, 2018 at 12:53 pm I confess I was really, really angry when I read that. The LW is certainly a piece of work and deserves to deal with the fallout of what she did. I mean, really, what difference does it make in LW’s life if her coworkers are overweight? Underweight? Old? Young? Are they doing their jobs, yes or no. That’s all that matters. Personally, I hope HR throws the book at her. Maybe a suspension and being sent to sensitivity training would be in order, as well as a transfer to another office (hopefully) so Shannon doesn’t have to interact with her.
Observer* July 6, 2018 at 6:27 pm I’d say “As an overweight person” Full Stop. This is not about the workplace or anything like it. This is about mean people being mean, then sorry for getting found out.
Bigglesworth* July 6, 2018 at 12:08 pm Oh. Oh my. The OP in that letter has a serious lack of self-awareness.
Annie Moose* July 6, 2018 at 12:24 pm Ooooh, I read that and it made me so mad. Prudie hit the nail on the head there–the LW exhibited zero feelings of remorse, and was only considering apologizing because she might get in trouble. (and even was acting like the coworker was the weird one for having brought it up!!)
Foreign Octopus* July 6, 2018 at 12:56 pm I saw that! I couldn’t believe the LW didn’t understand what they’d done wrong. “I just uploaded it, other people made the horrible remarks.” Honestly.
Annie Moose* July 6, 2018 at 2:06 pm Yes, because of course LW was uploading it with the purest intentions and not with any nasty thoughts in mind! How could she possibly have known other people would be so mean, right? Good grief! Grow a conscience.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 5:24 pm “I just threw lighted matches at the house, not my fault it burned.”
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 11:04 pm “And I didn’t even upload it from work. So I didn’t do anything wrong!”
SophieChotek* July 6, 2018 at 1:26 pm Yes ! I was just coming to see if anyone else had posted about this.
Middle School Teacher* July 6, 2018 at 2:08 pm Oh my goodness. That’s horrible. But the advice was spot-on.
flirting with Project Management* July 6, 2018 at 11:52 am Hello fellow commenters! Does anyone want to talk to me about PMing in the software sector? Upsides, downsides, things you wish you’d known? How to figure out if it’s right for me? Background; I’m currently in a role that’s somewhat specific to how my current employer staffs projects. In principle I’m a kind of software consultant, but a lot less technical than most versions of this type role. I’d normally work in a sort of good-cop-bad-cop tandem with a PM on the customer facing side of a project, but due to health crises and hiring delays, I’ve had occasion to temporarily do that on my own (and take on some of the cat herding duties as well) while waiting for a replacement PM. PRO: It’s interesting, a more easily transferable-to-other-employers skill set than my current gig, and tbh probably more money. CON: I’m not sure the part of the job that involves budget tracking and being buried in paperwork won’t make me miserable (I truly don’t know, could go either way!), my education is 95% science related, not business, and I’m still fairly early in my career so basically starting over in a new one feels a bit like cutting myself off at the knees? Thanks, the anon formerly going by Susan Calvin
Gumby* July 6, 2018 at 4:00 pm Are you set on PMing in software? Because science needs PMs too. (I say as someone who used to work in software (qa) and wanted to move to PM in software but am now in a pseudo-PM role at a scientific R&D company. Pseudo because I don’t understand enough about the science to be fully PM so I work with the PIs.)
Sam Foster* July 6, 2018 at 10:13 pm One thing that trips up PMs I work with in IT: Every company does things at least a little if not a lot differently so be flexible, adjust to how things are done at the new organization, adapt any tools you bring from previous jobs and otherwise apply your Project Management background as a framework to build success with at each stop you make. Also, if you don’t like budgets and paperwork you should be VERY leery of working for IT in project management especially if it is a heavily regulated industry like banking, bio-medical, etc. So, basically if you can read the PMBOK without wanting to commit self-harm you’ll probably be ok. Source: PMP, Certified Scrum Master, and a long, glorious career in IT cat herding.
PhyllisB* July 6, 2018 at 11:53 am I realize this is not work-related, but I will gone all day tomorrow and not checking email. Can someone advise me about long-term parking at O’Hare airport in Chicago? My daughter is flying out next week for a visit home (YAY!!) and she’s not sure. She went to the website and they have different levels of parking ranging from roof-top (the cheapest) all the way to Premium. My question is: do they have different areas for different airlines? (She’s flying American.) How much time should she allot to give from parking if she chooses rooftop to get to her check-in. I already told her to be two hours early to allow for check-in and security, but wasn’t thinking about finding parking. The only airports I’ve flown out in the last thirty years I have had someone drop me off so I didn’t have to consider parking. Any other advice I should give her? This is her first time flying and I want her and the kids to have a good experience.
The Ginger Ginger* July 6, 2018 at 12:16 pm Is she from Chicago area or just driving to Chicago to fly out? Because if she’s anywhere near/around the city, I’d recommend she cab/uber/lyft/use the blue line directly into O’hare instead of parking.
PhyllisB* July 6, 2018 at 3:03 pm She lives in Round Lake Beach. I thought of that, but that’s over a hour away I think. That would be more expensive than the parking I would imagine.
A. Ham* July 6, 2018 at 12:20 pm Is the rooftop really the cheapest? I have parked many times at o’hare and there is economy parking on a surface lot (but still on airport grounds) that is like $8 a day (I haven’t parked there in a few years, as i no longer live in the area, so that amount may have changed). It’s far away, but there is a shuttle service that comes around every 15 minutes or so that takes you to the main part of the airport. Sometimes my parents, who live a few hours north of there will come in the night before an early AM flight and stay at the airport Hyatt, which lets you keep your car there for up to a week after check out for free!
chicagoan* July 6, 2018 at 1:01 pm Have her check out parking options that aren’t at the airport. On busy weekends, like I assume this will be, the O’hare parking lots tend to fill up quick, especially the economy lots. I fly out of O’hare frequently and would recommend Preflight Parking or Wally Park which allow you to reserve in advance and will shuttle you for free to and from the terminals. I usually arrive about half an hour earlier than my intended time (i.e. if I have a flight leaving at 8, I’ll plan to get to the parking lot at 5:30 so I’m at the airport at 6) but that usually leaves me a decent chunk of extra time. Best of luck!
Sprechen Sie Talk?* July 6, 2018 at 1:13 pm Agree with the Wallypark suggestion – we always used them when we were in Chicago and it was the easiest thing possible and relatively cheap.
PhyllisB* July 6, 2018 at 4:29 pm She’s flying out on Wed., returning on Mon. Her flight out leaves around 6:10 her flight back will arrive back in Chicago about the same time.
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 1:01 pm I agree with Ginger. Uber if she can. Two hours is plenty of time either way.
periwinkle* July 6, 2018 at 1:13 pm Airport parking can be a pain because of traffic. I’ve never driven to O’Hare but I’ve nearly been run over a few times there… Anyway, if she parks in the main garage, she would probably want to park closer to the appropriate terminal (American Airlines operates out of Terminal 3), but the main garage is expensive for multi-day parking. The airport recommends the Economy lot for longer-term parking and there is shuttle service. When I fly, I always opt for off-airport parking services. Check Google & Yelp reviews to help find a good one. I fly out of Seattle and always use Masterpark ($16/day) – valet parking, frequent shuttle service, and no messing with airport traffic. With offsite parking, I factor in an extra hour to be safe, but I’m always at my terminal within 15 minutes of arriving at the offsite parking. Wear socks when going through the TSA checkpoint. You don’t want to stand there barefoot.
Clever Name Here* July 6, 2018 at 1:57 pm I live in the Chicago ‘burbs and fly out of O’Hare a lot (too much). The cheapest is parking is a surface lot, Economy Lot G, which is $8/day. It is on the west side of Bessie Coleman drive. There’s a shuttle bus that takes you across Bessie Coleman Drive to Economy Lot E where there is an elevated monorail that goes to all terminals. Sometimes Economy Lot G fills up and I’ll park in Economy Lot E which is on the east side of Bessie Coleman Drive right across from lot G. That’s, I believe, $18/day. I don’t know anything about rooftop/premium. That might be an off-site parking facility, of which there are many, or the parking deck at O’Hare which is very pricey for an overnight stay. I don’t usually bother with offsite parking as I can usually find something in Lot G, especially traveling over the weekend when there are fewer business people. Depending on how long she’s going to be leaving her car, it might be cheaper to do Uber/Lyft.
Chicago Flights* July 6, 2018 at 9:38 pm I’ve done a couple of different long-term parking garages flying out of O’hare. I work in the burbs, so am often driving to my flight from work. Pre-Flight airport parking was by far the best one I’ve tried in terms of price, frequency of the shuttles and overall convenience. It’s never taken me more than 10-15 minutes to get a shuttle and arrive at my terminal from there. They offer discounts for frequent users and have specials sometimes, so it’s relatively affordable. I wouldn’t use the parking at O’hare. It frequently fills up, so you have to go to garages that are not near your terminal. I also know people who have gotten their cars damaged parking at O’hare. There’s much more traffic coming in and out of those garages than most of the off-site options, so the companies that run long-term parking outside of O’hare are safer and more secure in my opinion.
Cat Herder* July 7, 2018 at 3:50 pm Take a bus or train to the loop, take the train to Ohare. That’s the cheapest. She will have to haul her stuff around of course. She can also check a hotel near where she lives to see if they have a shuttle or limo to the airport.
TiredEventPlanner* July 6, 2018 at 11:54 am I’m an event planner at a university in a director-level position. I’m relatively new to this particular position though I’ve been a university administrator for about 6 years, and this is my first position that is events-only. Much of what I do involves events that last multiple days (sometimes weeks) that don’t require me to be present for the entire thing, but often I will need to arrive early to set things up/do event things for a few hours. It’s not inherently a problem, and I knew coming into this position that there would be some long days. But I didn’t expect them to be most every day. My issue is that after working weekends and arriving hours early for event stuff during the week… my boss still expects me to work until my regular finish time. Every day. Even when there isn’t anything urgent to do. And after weeks of that, I get tired. SO TIRED. I tried approaching my boss about this once before, but I was kind of grouchy from stress and lack of sleep from the event I’d been running for the two weeks prior and he wasn’t very receptive to me taking a half day that Friday after it ended (“part of being a director is working overtime”). Does anyone have any tips for managing this? Or scripts to approach the boss? My next event is starting on Sunday and it will again be multiple weeks of arriving early. I don’t mind the occasional long day or weekend working. But it’s turning into me not being able to do anything outside of work and I feel like that’s going to burn me out quickly. Help!
Higher Ed Database Dork* July 6, 2018 at 11:58 am That does sound exhausting! Some ideas: – do you have any employees you can delegate these tasks to, and rotate who does the work so you don’t always have to do it? – can you tell your boss that it’s not feasible/tenable to work overtime ALL the time, but let’s come up with a solution? – since you’re at a university – is it public or private? check into their rules about compensatory time, typically public schools have strict rules about this
TiredEventPlanner* July 6, 2018 at 12:05 pm I have an assistant, but am under strict orders to be mindful of her hours and she is not allowed to work overtime (she’s hourly). So because of our event schedule, assistant will often be off while I am working.
AMPG* July 6, 2018 at 12:45 pm Have you gone to your boss with hard numbers? Give him a breakdown of your hours over the last month, since there’s “occasional overtime” and then there’s “averaging 55-60 hours/week.” Also, can you plan at least one vacation day after each big event? Surely there’s some coverage available so that you’re not going straight from one event to the next. And if that’s not the case, then honestly this job might just be set up to burn people out and I’d recommend looking elsewhere.
Easily Amused* July 7, 2018 at 8:25 am I agree with AMPG. I think you need to make it clear to your boss that you don’t have a M-F 9-5 job (strangely, he doesn’t seem to get that). You need to go to him with real number of hours worked (also include sequential days – my record is 32 days straight working 12 hour days but I was non-exemp and paid OT wages which is the only thing that made it worth it). You need to try to work out a proper schedule that includes your long days and weekends and still gives you time to recharge. It would be unreasonable for boss to expect you to be an adult professional who successfully works these events on off hours without their constant oversight but then is rigid about face time during regular office hours. It sounds like you’re already recognizing burn out so it’s likely already happening. Best of luck! I hope your boss can see reason!
Bigglesworth* July 6, 2018 at 11:54 am What do a I do when my supervisor doesn’t give me work? I started a legal internship this summer at a federal agency. It has been a struggle to get work all summer. I have to beg for work and the stuff I do get a generally finish quickly. No deadlines are set and the only feedback I have received is that I’m doing a great job. Honestly, I could probably work 20 hours a week and still get everything done. The professor in charge of the externship program said I should ask for work more often, but I ask almost everyday and nothing has changed. I’m bored, have finished all of the training available, and am now reading for-fun books at work between assignments. Prior to law school I worked for four years. I gained a reputation for working hard and learning quickly. I honestly feel like these skills aren’t being utilized. Does anyone have any advice for getting work or, if nothing else, figuring it a more productive way to spend my time than reading Steelheart and Mistborn?
AMPG* July 6, 2018 at 12:02 pm Do you see a need that needs filling – a project that nobody ever gets to, or some proactive work to put a system in place when right now everyone just reacts to situations as they come up? If so, present it to your supervisor (don’t start anything without permission!) and ask if you can work on it. Alternately, ask if there’s a project like that lying around that you could take a swing at.
Bigglesworth* July 6, 2018 at 12:14 pm I wish there was. That’s how I kept myself busy at my old job. Completely revamped several systems to become more efficient. In my division, there are four-five attorneys. Several of the issues that come up are resolved within 24 hours via email (we provide advice, but do not litigate or investigate). I don’t have access to the emails other than my own. I see the attorneys are busy and they promise to give me work, but then it turns out to be quicker that they just do it themselves.
animaniactoo* July 6, 2018 at 12:26 pm My best advice is to see if you have access to Lynda.com through your public library or some such and see what training videos they have for software you use or have access to but don’t know how to use and make yourself a maven on those. Also, is there a research project you could cull from the work you do get? Comparison stats of something or the other?
animaniactoo* July 6, 2018 at 12:29 pm Potentially also might reframe how you’re asking the available work question: “Do you have anything for me to work on?” to: “What do you have that I can work on?” It can set up a different dynamic where they are more likely to give to you as fulfilling a need to give you work for you and therefore looking and finding some, vs not particularly needing help and therefore not actively looking to pass off work to you.
Bigglesworth* July 6, 2018 at 4:15 pm I try using that verbiage. Currently, I’ve been trying to say things like, “I know the llama reports need to be finalized in two weeks. You’ve already shown me how to research proper llama grooming and housing protocols. Can I work on some of these reports to make sure the filters are following proper protocol? If I do that, we can finalize the reports.” That particular example gave me a 1 week project. Other than that, though, my suggestions seem to not be working. I hope your phrasing works better!
Bekx* July 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm Ugh, I sympathize. I had the exact same issue at one of my graphic design internships. No one wanted to give me work because I was “just an intern”. I would go to everyone’s desk daily and ask if they have anything they needed help with. Not sure if it’s productive or a good use of your time, but I used that time to read tech blogs, watch youtube tutorials, read AAM. Honestly, even now, I feel like you do. I could easily get all my work done in 20 hours a week. Annnd I haven’t found a concrete solution yet. So I hope others chime in!
bureaucat* July 6, 2018 at 2:02 pm Honestly, this is pretty common for public-sector legal internships, which is really a shame. As for what to do to fill the time— sign up to receive daily slip opinions from your state’s supreme court and read those (unfortunately, they dry up over the summer, but you can always dig into the archives). Will keep you abreast of what’s going on in your state & will get you comfortable with reading opinions. Alternatively, come up with an interesting research assignment for yourself that’s related to the topic of your internship. You could even write up a memo and share it with your supervisor at the end of the internship. Or, hone a brief/memo you’ve written during your internship until it’s writing-sample quality. One of the most important things about law school internships is getting a good writing sample, and it sounds like you’ve got plenty of time to make sure that happens!
Elspeth McGillicuddy* July 6, 2018 at 2:16 pm Hey, Steelheart and Mistborn are great uses of anybody’s time! But maybe read non-fiction instead of fiction? Especially if its somewhat related to the job? I know I’d feel better reading “The medieval machine : the industrial revolution of the Middle Ages” than “Warbreaker”, even though logically speaking it makes no possible difference to my employer. Better yet, business self-help, like “How to Win Friends and Influence People,” which might feasibly make you a better employee. Best of all, something non-fiction in your field. I don’t know, all the decisions of the Supreme Court from 1791 on? But if you are reading Sanderson, make sure you read “Alloy of Law.” Hey, its sort of topical if you squint hard enough. Plus its a really good book.
Bigglesworth* July 6, 2018 at 4:18 pm When not reading Sanderson, I’m working on studying for my Professional Responsibility final (which is on the 12th). I’m also following a couple of different work blogs as well. And thanks for the Alloy of Law suggestion! I’ll add that to my reading list. Just finished up all of the Steelheart books last night.
CTT* July 6, 2018 at 2:17 pm Ugh, yeah, that can happen. At my last clerkship, I knew the summer associate coordinator socially and she told me that this sort of thing happens a lot, because people are so used to doing their own work that they don’t think of giving it to an intern. Is there any way you could shadow people? Sit in on meetings or calls, go to court if you’re at an agency where that’s common, or similar. It can feel like a waste because it’s not Work, but it is really helpful to see the work in action, even if you’re not contributing to it, because you get to observe the norms of the field.
Bigglesworth* July 6, 2018 at 4:26 pm I’ve requested that I’d like to go to more meetings, which I think is now on their radar. My supervisor mentioned that now is a great time to be networking and talking to attorneys in other practice groups. In all honesty, I think my supervisors finally realized it was an issue when I asked, “If neither one of you is available for whatever reason and I’ve finished my work, can i go home early? I don’t like sitting at my desk with nothing to do.” This was on a Monday after a particularly grueling Friday when no one was in the office (either remote working or off) and I seriously saw the minutes drag by. This isn’t a request I’ve ever made in my 9 years of working life. I’m not trying to be lazy – just don’t like being bored.
TL -* July 7, 2018 at 2:43 am Can you sit down with your manager (schedule a meeting), talk about your interests/goals, and ask for help developing a small project, preferably around something that you’ve already seen done in the office? For instance, if you’re really into the legalities of fly fishing, ask if you can set up a project with the fly fishing attorney where you help do research for a case or you write up documents. Interns are supposed to take more time than doing something yourself, so make a strong case for taking on a project and someone else’s time.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 5:46 am Are you just asking one person for work or asking multiple people? Ask your coworkers if they have anything you can do, not just your supervisor.
..Kat..* July 7, 2018 at 5:49 am Not in the legal industry, so I don’t know if this is appropriate. Can you ask the paralegals/legal secretaries what you can do to assist them when you have time to fill?
Jane* July 6, 2018 at 11:55 am First week on the job! So far, things are good and rolling with the punches. Question for the group – what’s been the craziest thing someone has told you when you first arrived on the job? I have two 1) the hiring manager was leaving in a week 2) our major funder was going under, so our revenue was in question.
peachie* July 6, 2018 at 11:56 am Anyone else in a position where you have to deliver bad/frustrating news constantly, and therefore everyone kinda hates you? I’m on a small team that fulfills requests for a large population, and we’re understaffed and have a huge backlog. I’m often the first person to make contact with them (whether or not I end up fulfilling their request), so just about every day I’m responding to “It’s been two months, can you update me on the progress??” with “…no, sorry, I actually do not have an update, nor do I have a time frame [, I would be annoyed also, but here we are].” I’m not looking for solutions or advice–believe me, I’ve tried the talking-to-the-manager, explaining-the-problem, explaining-why-we-need-more-staff, etc., etc., etc.–I’m just bummed out and constantly dreading those emails. I’m good at customer service! I’m good at de-escalating and providing solutions! There’s just not a way to do that here and I want to grump and commiserate. :(
Murphy* July 6, 2018 at 12:14 pm Why yes, I do! I deliver bad news all the time. It’s through email, so I don’t often get a response back, but sometimes I do. I also get requests for updates, and I feel you. Sometimes I want to say, “X is taking their sweet ass time getting back to me!” or “Y turned in their feedback a few days late” but obviously I don’t. My boss said to let him know if anyone really wants to shoot the messenger. It’s only happened twice. (One person yelled at me on the phone and escalated to my boss, and another person hung up on me before he could start yelling at me, but definitely wanted to.)
whistle* July 6, 2018 at 12:26 pm I receive and deliver bad news every day. It totally sucks. Let’s commiserate! I first email I opened this morning was excellent news that I had been waiting for. I shouted to my coworker that I was done for the day (a la George Costanza) because it wasn’t going to get any better. Then of course my remaining emails contained bad news that I now have to share :(
Lupin Lady* July 6, 2018 at 12:28 pm That sucks, and sounds super frustrating. (Presuming here) Good luck in your job search!
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 12:47 pm That’s a really rough situation to be in. I hope that you have a good support system both in and out of work where you can engage with people in a way that feels good and reminds you that you’re not the bad guy. Because that can be incredibly draining and you need something to counteract it. Hope it gets better – the very fact that you care about how people feel getting bad news all the time from you is probably what makes you great at your job. And I’m gonna stop there so I don’t start giving unwanted advice. :)
Former Retail Manager* July 6, 2018 at 1:50 pm I might be the Queen of Bad News. I deliver it via phone, mail, & in-person. While the outcome of what I do is virtually never “good” in the eyes of the person dealing with me, I have found that it helps to set the timeframe expectations up front and be realistic about them. I can’t tell from your comment if this would be a possibility for you in your position or not. I am currently dealing with a similar situation…..despite my delivering very rare “good” news to the individuals, they wish to shake me down for written conclusion which I simply cannot get to right now. They’ll get it in a few weeks and this is truly the best outcome they could have hoped for, but they’re impatient. Other than “sorry Charlie, keep your pants on…I’m only one person.” (Of course I didn’t say that, but you know).
Girl friday* July 6, 2018 at 2:18 pm I am really good at giving bad news. It’s something I admire in others and encourage others to develop. If you already have good soft skills, sometimes it’s the last thing people develop, but everyone respects it. Differentiates a good leader from a good coworker.
Jennifer* July 6, 2018 at 4:13 pm According to the lynda.com class I watched on the subject, it involves a lot of sympathizing with their pain. In my own experience, it involves a shit ton of apologizing for their inconvenience.
sweet potatoes* July 6, 2018 at 11:57 am Just venting! I have so much work and am so overwhelmed I constantly want to cry. I have spoken to my boss and his response boils down to toughen up. I’m constantly being drilled that I need to reply to emails more promptly, but I get over 150 a day. I cannot do my main functions because the ancillary stuff is always urgent and needs my immediate attention. It certainly doesn’t help when my internal customers go over to my boss every time I tell them something they don’t like, which leads to me going over to my boss’ office to explain why my answer is no, and telling them and my boss that my answer is no regardless of how many times I’m asked (mostly trade compliance stuff I can’t change and issues with carriers I have little control over). I am so tired and stressed of having endless days of people being mad at me for stuff I can’t really control. I will readily admit that stuff does fall through the cracks, but I’m one guy trying to do a job of around 3 people. When my coworkers in other offices heard I did everything myself they actually had pity for me! Their offices are smaller and they wouldn’t dream of having just one person covering my position. I have only been on this position for two months and I feel like I’m drowning :( I’ve been with the company since May 2017 and I wanted to stay a couple years with the company, but I don’t believe I can handle this. They are also underpaying me by 10% compared to what we agreed to when I got promoted into this job. I’m looking for new jobs and using that as my reason for moving on so quickly. Gah, I just wanted to get it all out.
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 12:48 pm Wait, how on earth are they paying you 10% less than agreed upon? What did that conversation look like? That made me see red. I really hope you find something else soon. That is not okay.
sweet potatoes* July 6, 2018 at 1:13 pm It’s unclear. There was no conversation, I just noticed it in my pay-stubs and I asked HR and have yet to hear back. I’m extremely annoyed.
The New Wanderer* July 6, 2018 at 10:47 pm Ooh, I hope you push them to resolve it quickly, including back pay. Treat it like an obvious mistake, because of course they will pay you what was agreed on. [angry on your behalf]
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 5:43 pm Your boss needs to have your back. The boss needs to say, “OP’s answer is NO. And that is the answer.” Perhaps you can find your own version of, “Boss, it would be helpful if you could encourage people to stop yelling at me and stop going over my head to you.” The 150 emails thing might be a bit easier. Use a calc to pull some numbers together. If it takes 2 minutes to answer an email then 150 x 2 is 300 minutes, or FIVE HOURS. But let’s say it takes you 3 minutes because the computer is slow or whatever. That means it will take you 45o minutes to answer these emails, which is SEVEN and a half hours. That is just for email. “Boss, is it worth the company’s time for me to answer all these emails or would you prefer I work on other things.”
Chaordic One* July 6, 2018 at 10:17 pm This sounds like my old job at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. I’m not sure there’s very much you can do to improve the situation. Please start looking for a new position and give yourself a date by which, if you haven’t found a new job, you’ll turn in your resignation. I ended up being fired from Dysfunctional Teapots, but my former coworkers let me know that they ran through 4 replacements in 6 months before they revised the job description and redistributed a significant part of the job duties among my coworkers, which confirmed by feelings that it wasn’t me, it was them.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 5:50 am Good luck on your job search. Maybe point out to your boss that 150 emails times 2 mins per email is 5 hours work just doing the initial response, not even actioninf anything.
Lorde* July 15, 2018 at 11:02 am Hi I know this is late but I am in a very similar boat. Commiserating and hope you’re onto better paths soon.
No Username* July 6, 2018 at 11:57 am I’m on a hiring committee for my former position. I know the job doesn’t pay a living wage in our area (it pays above minimum wage, but that’s vastly different from cost of living here). We’re up front about the pay, and there’s no option for negotiation. We’re part of a larger org and the head of our area insists that this is the highest possible pay she can get approved for this level position. I feel squicky being on the hiring committee for a job I wouldn’t recommend anyone take. When I was in the role, I was regularly asked to do things way above my pay grade and barely scraped by to make ends meet. I worked my butt off to advance as fast as possible to avoid going into debt to pay rent. It worked out ok for me, but I wouldn’t wish it on anyone else. It’s standard practice here for the former person to be part of the hiring committee to fill their role if they’re still at the company and it would look really weird if I said no.
Graciosa* July 6, 2018 at 12:41 pm I don’t see a major issue in what you’ve shared. Some of it is pretty clear – the pay – but they’re being upfront about that, which is really the requirement. It’s not like you’re selling snake oil to anyone pretending it does more than it actually does. On the other parts of the job, you owe the candidate a similar candor, but you need to take your own personal feelings out of it and let the candidate make a decision based on her own preferences. You didn’t like the job and didn’t think it was worth it (except as a stepping stone you wanted to pass beyond as quickly as possible). Other people might have a different view. For example, there’s a difference between sharing your resentment at being asked to do things above your pay grade with inadequate compensation, and sharing that people in that position may be asked to take on additional tasks from time to time, such as Example1 or Example2. There’s a similar difference between saying the job pays $X – unfortunately with no flexibility in that rate – and complaining that you were barely able to scrape by on the pittance the company pays. It sounds like you really need to participate in the interview, so I suggest you figure out how to make sure you are fair to the candidate in sharing what they need to know about the job to evaluate it. This means sharing the facts about the job without your personal filter. Not everyone will feel about this the way you do. Some people may have other sources of financial support or different perspectives on whether or how they can manage on $X. Some people hate being asked to do higher level projects without additional compensation, and some people love the variety or see an opportunity. I have my own personal bugaboos (jobs with a lot of administrative work) but I have known many people who find that type of work both easy and comforting. Jobs are not an area where one size fits all. If you can figure out how to be very factual and matter of fact about the job without coloring those facts with your personal values, you will be fulfilling your role on the committee in a perfectly professional manner. But to do this, you need to let go of the assumption that you have some obligation to “save” others from a job that they might – accurately described – still actually want. Good luck.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 5:55 pm I worked one place where we all said, “This is not a head of household income.” That pretty much summed it up. Most of my cohorts were on food stamps, because it was not a living wage. A small to NO comfort, I have seen times where people were told directly, “You will not be able to exist on this pay” and they took the job DESPITE of hearing that. So there is that. It’s not the people who interview who are the actual concern, it’s the one person who gets the job who has to make it work, that is the actual concern here. You can chose not to say too much. You can chose to restate what they have already been told about the pay. (Just echo what you hear others saying, instead of creating your own thing.) Keep in mind that they did this to you also. This is how your workplace functions. Maybe you can just do it this one time and never have to do it again for this position. Sometimes if I have to do something just once, I can push through it.
Chaordic One* July 6, 2018 at 10:34 pm At Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. a large number of employees received food stamps, and qualified for the Affordable Care Act (ACA) health insurance, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP). Although it was probably illegal, DTL seemed to make a conscious effort to hire young people who still lived with their parents, spouses (almost always women) whose partners had good jobs and who could support them, and the occasional older employee who was retired from a previous job and who didn’t need a lot of income to support themselves.
Reference Woes* July 6, 2018 at 11:58 am A few weeks ago I reached out to an old supervisor to be a reference for me. I’ve always felt I did well at the job and was well liked during my time. I know my supervisor was disappointed I left that organization and tried to get me a pay raise to keep me, but ultimately they couldn’t do enough. But that’s the only ill will I can imagine. I’ve been applying to jobs and emailed her about being a reference and she said she’d “consider it” but wanted to talk about the “breadth of what she would share”. To me that sounds like she would share unfavorable things but I’m not even sure what they would be or if I’m overreacting. I do remember her as being a little power-trippy so maybe she just wants to put me through the ringer before giving me something I want. I immediately followed up (twice) letting her know I would be happy to chat about the reference but she hasn’t gotten back to me and its been almost 3 weeks at this point. I’m young and have only had 3 supervisors in my professional career including my current one (who I don’t want to know I’m applying for work). Most of the jobs I’m applying to have been asking for 3 references with a strong preference for supervisors. The question is – do I continue to follow up with her and figure out what’s going on? Or is it just a lost cause and I should leave her be? And secondarily is it that bad to only include one supervisor reference from almost 5 years ago??
Graciosa* July 6, 2018 at 12:18 pm It’s not that much of an issue to have only one supervisor if you can find other references who can speak to the quality of your work. Ideally, having some of those be from the same employer as the “missing” supervisor would be helpful, but not essential.
R* July 6, 2018 at 7:42 pm Yeah, I’d follow up with her. Her concern about what she should say might not be negative at all. If it turns out that she harbors ill will about your leaving (which is nuts), then you can use someone else. But odds are that she just wants to know what you want her to talk about.
Hope* July 6, 2018 at 11:59 am I would appreciate some advice on how to enter group conversations at work. I periodically hear people talking about tv shows I watch or places I’ve been to, and I would like to participate. However, I just don’t know what the proper etiquette is.
Wannabe Disney Princess* July 6, 2018 at 12:05 pm I’m shy by nature so I get the struggle. But I’ve made myself just burst in. Unless, of course, it’s two people kind of talking to themselves quietly or something. If they’re talking about a place I’ve been to, I generally break in with a “OHMYGOSH I love that place!!! Have you been to [insert restaurant/tourist trap/etc]?” If it’s a TV show, it’s usually something simliar: “I love that show! How far into it are you?” Or “Oh, I looooooved last night’s/week’s episode.”
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 12:24 pm If they’re in a public or open space and communicating in a reasonable tone of voice (not whispering or obviously trying to have a private conversation) I’ll just say “Sorry to interrupt, but are you talking about X? I just caught up on season 3!” or “I couldn’t help but overhear, but are you going to Y? I was there last year, and it was amazing!” People are usually happy to have someone else to chat with!
Hope* July 6, 2018 at 1:15 pm What about if they’re chatting around someone’s cubicle or in an office with an open door? Is that a clear sign I should stay away?
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 1:31 pm I’d say cubes are fair game (assuming there’s generally a culture of talking across cubes) but offices (even with open doors) would be off-limits. Not sure why I feel that there’s a difference, but there you go.
KX* July 6, 2018 at 2:19 pm I would, in that case, say something cheerful about whatever the topic is, and then carry on to your destination. That way, you aren’t lurking or hanging out at the fringes, but they will know you share this interest. Enough repetition of this, and they will probably drift toward including you next time the topic comes up.
gecko* July 6, 2018 at 1:55 pm One, definitely don’t burst in if it sounds like they’re talking about a personal topic–I think you know that but it’s always worth saying. Two, see if you can find a small excuse for passing by, even if it’s just to yourself. Like, oh I was passing to get some water, or if the person has a public candy bowl in their cube (yahtzee!). As you pass by, it’s likely that the people in the conversation will turn to look at you a little bit. This is a great opportunity to smile and say, “were you talking about last night’s Game of Thrones? I loved it, the dragon looked really cool!” or “Tokyo, huh? I had the best street food there!” Ie, very quickly acknowledge the topic and offer a small comment of your own. You can even say, “Not here about work…just getting water and heard Game of Thrones :) ” For an office with an open door, unless there’s a candy bowl inside or something else to entice you in there, hold off until you have a little more practice. If it’s a circle by the water cooler, not in someone’s cube, it’s much more public. Then you can definitely wait until a break in the conversation, or until people acknowledge you’re there, and toss in a quick comment. At first, never leave the conversation last–say a quick “seeya” right after the first person leaves. This is going to be awkward at first,and will get easier with practice! If you keep it low-stakes, no one will think less of you for being awkward, and most folks will make more of an effort to include you in conversations. Good luck!
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 6:08 pm Be genuine, pick stuff that you are actually interested in. This will help you to feel like you are on more solid ground. People do like to talk about themselves so asking a question is a great entry. “I love Paris. What did you see while you were there?” As someone else pointed out, you can always say, “I heard someone mention XYZ and I am a big fan.” Other than that, it’s as you would expect in any conversation. Don’t talk over people. Don’t one-up people, let them have their moment in the sun and you will have yours a few minutes later. If I am new at a job, I tend to watch and copy what I see. If the group has pretty salty language, I might let go of a four letter word once in a while. If they don’t cuss at all, I make sure I don’t cuss. [If you don’t cuss at all, then skip this step.] Pay attention to the things that concern/interest the group as a whole such as Sue is sick again or Dave has a new baby. Learn what they consider to be important.
D.W.* July 6, 2018 at 11:59 am I have mentioned that I am looking for an opportunity to transition into HR and I found a job listing that is the perfect opportunity. I previously applied for a position with this company last year and it required that I sign-up for an account in their application system. I uploaded my resume and cover letter and submitted them for the position. After I completed my application materials for this current position I clicked “apply” on the job description page and was prompted to log in. I assumed that I would be able to submit the materials I had just written. However, once I logged in my application was submitted! I was not aware that the system would submit my application based on previously uploaded attachments, which were for the previous application I submitted last year, without giving me the opportunity to attach a new cover letter and resume. I deleted the old resume and cover letter and attached the materials meant for the new position, but I’m afraid that what was already on file will accompany this application I just submitted. Does anyone know how these types of systems work? Will the hiring team see the application materials that are currently attached in my profile or will the old materials that the system submitted my application under be attached to my most recent application? I have sent an email to the careers team hoping to get a reply because I really don’t want this to tank my eligibility for the position. I don’t know what else to do. Has anyone ever faced this situation? How did it turn out for you?
Evil HR Person* July 6, 2018 at 5:01 pm I have an applicant tracking system that did this to a candidate. Unlike you, she typed a message to have me contact her for an updated resume… in the address field. Had she done just a tiny bit of research (namely, go to our website) she would have found the email address for our recruiter. So… I think you did the right thing. The rest is up to them. Conversely, if their system will let you, you can apply again for the same position now that your materials are up to date. If I have hundreds of applicants to filter through, I don’t even look at their names. Most probably, it won’t even register with their recruiter that you applied twice (that’s if the system will let you apply again, though). Good luck!
Cat Herder* July 7, 2018 at 3:59 pm Yep, happened to me! I looked up the number for HR, called them to explain, whereupon they groaned and said, it’s driving us crazy! And promptly fixed it for me.
Ann O. Nimitee* July 6, 2018 at 12:02 pm I’ve been reading AAM for a few months now and I am gleaning so much from it. Thank you! I’m throwing my work issue out there for an unbiased, outside perspective. Here’s the gist: I’m at the point that a) I don’t think I can work for boss long-term because boss basically has a personality in which everyone and everything in the world is never good enough and is a perpetual disappointment and b) this job and its massive laundry list of duties is not sustainable for me in terms of the workload and work-life balance. The catch is that I’m in a field that’s extremely tough to crack into, especially full-time. I changed careers 7 years ago and my job is the envy of so many in my field. I also have student loans from going back for a second degree to make this career change. And I bought a house that I love. Changing jobs in this field most likely will necessitate moving. I’ve been looking since last fall, off and on, and have seen two jobs that I got excited about but couldn’t pull the trigger and actually apply. Sometimes I kick myself for not applying, especially on the really crappy days. So where do I go from here? I see two options: Keep looking and see what comes my way, or work to make peach with my current situation. Blergh. Open to all thoughts.
Graciosa* July 6, 2018 at 12:12 pm Get out. If you’re having work life balance issues, then the house you don’t get to spend enough time in (other than sleeping) is not a good reason to subject yourself to a job under this boss and with these hours. (Also, although it may be hard to believe, there will be other houses to love again someday if you end up selling this one). Your letter reads very much like you are being held back by fear of the unknown. What if (some amorphous terrible) thing happens that would be worse than having stayed? The odds are very strongly against this, but I would love to see you set aside the fear and move forward with the confidence that IF (some amorphous terrible) thing happens, you will deal with quickly and decisively – just like you’re (about to be) dealing with this situation. ACTION is empowering. Practice it. Good luck!
beanie beans* July 6, 2018 at 1:10 pm Yeah! :) I looked for about a year and a half, and while it’s exhausting, it gives you hope that you’re moving towards something better. And the job that I’m starting in a couple weeks seems like THE job that I’d been waiting for (and why everything in the past year didn’t work out). And I’m in a job that other people covet, so I’m there with ya! Apply for everything and decide later if you’re interested in it – applying at least gets you started! You can always walk away from the process if you change your mind about the position. And in the meantime, take on projects that you can use as successful examples in interviews, get all the free training you can, and reward yourself along the way for continuing to look!
Ann O. Nimitee* July 6, 2018 at 2:06 pm Thank you, beanie beans! It’s also easier to look for a job while you have a job, even if it’s a crummy one, so there’s that. And congrats on your new gig!
Ann O. Nimitee* July 6, 2018 at 2:08 pm Very good point, Graciosa. There will be other homes I love. The one I’m in is meaningful because it’s my first house, but you’re totally right — If I’m never there to enjoy it, it’s not as meaningful to me. Action is definitely empowering — I’m going to give it a shot! Thank you!
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 12:20 pm As long as you’re still there, just pick a daily mantra so that you don’t internalize boss’s perpetual disappointment. “You are kind. You are smart. You are important.” (or whatever speaks to you). And be firm in setting boundaries in terms of the unsustainable workload, “I will need X weeks for Y project because I am finishing Z project (which takes X amount of time).” Establish a timeline, and if they push back, let them know the consequences for that (“If you want me to do Y first, I won’t be able to finish Z project until X date”). Since you have found that these things are important for you, make sure that you are asking questions and doing your research about future positions and companies to find the kind of company culture that you want in this regard.
Ann O. Nimitee* July 6, 2018 at 2:05 pm Thank you, Rey. The mantras are helpful. I even made a work password out of the phrase ‘You are doing great!’ And you’re right — articulating what is I need that I’m not getting now means those things should be on the list in the job hunt.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 6:21 pm Affirmations are so powerful especially if you just keep working with them. Meanwhile, know that this is how the boss speaks to herself– with a bunch of negatives. The glass is always half empty in her mind. If you can try to catch her being hard on herself and say, “Hey, boss, take it easy, don’t beat yourself up. We can pick the piece of paper up off the floor and that resolves the problem with the piece of paper on the floor.” If you can do this successfully for any length of time, you might be surprised to see that, of the two of you, YOU are the strong one.
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 12:55 pm Things that don’t matter that much: – how hard it is to break into your field – how much other people would love your job – the ‘sunk time/cost’ fallacy Things that kinda matter: – moving can be a real bummer :( Things that matter a lot: – your boss sucks and isn’t going to change – your workload is unsustainable – you need income So my advice? When you see a job you get excited about, don’t just apply – really try to get it! When you see a job that makes you go ‘hmm, interesting’ – apply! When you see a job that doesn’t look like much but hey, you could totally do that – apply! Applying to a job is not marrying that job. You aren’t committing to anything, even an interview, if you decide you’re not interested. But always, always, always apply to the job. Do not make peach (I like this even if it was a typo and I’m gonna use it even if people think I’m dumb) with your current situation, because it sounds like your current situation is untenable. You deserve a life that you want to live, not just the one you can ‘get by’ with. Everyone does. So if you’re able, go for it. *sets up a cheering section for Ann*
Ann O. Nimitee* July 6, 2018 at 2:04 pm Oh my gosh, Lumen, thank you so much. This was my very first time posting here, and this type of response is more than I even hoped for. This helps so much. I love the ‘things that matter/things that don’t’ break down. So very true. And thank you also for finding the bright side in my typo — it is kind of fitting, isn’t it!
Easily Amused* July 7, 2018 at 8:53 am What a great breakdown of things that really matter and things that don’t. I had a career as a VFX artist for movies working 80 hours a week for years. It had cache! People would say “so cool!” But in the end, on the very very few occasions I had to talk to humans outside of my office, I had nothing else to talk about but how many hours I worked. My sister said something that always stuck with me: “you don’t have a career, you have a lifestyle and your lifestyle sucks.” I lasted a bunch of years before realizing that life and people were more important than someone saying “ooh, cool job”. And it has taken me years to build a life again (still working on it actually). Don’t let life pass you by!
Lumen* July 9, 2018 at 1:38 pm I am so, so glad my comment was helpful. I really hope the best for you!
JLCBL* July 6, 2018 at 2:58 pm Here to admit I just googled “make peach” because it sounded like a great little expression! Slightly disappointed to realize it’s a typo.
JLCBL* July 6, 2018 at 3:00 pm Ooh, high five @Lumen! Between the two/three of us it’s bound to take off.
JessicaTate* July 6, 2018 at 5:04 pm I will second the advice to absolutely start looking and apply for things that seem exciting or even just interesting to you. An application is not a commitment, it’s an opportunity. They’ll see if you are a good fit, and you get to dip your toe in the water of what alternative options would ACTUALLY mean, rather than hypothetically. And if push comes to shove, and the move isn’t worth it to you (love your house, your city, salary isn’t good enough, etc.), you can turn down an offer. I’ve been there, and it was actually very empowering to make that decision for myself, even when it meant I stayed where I was with a mildly crazy boss. I chose it for Reasons, but it was my decision, not something forced upon me. Good luck.
Reference Woes* July 6, 2018 at 12:04 pm First remember that you are already doing great by being in therapy and so I think focusing on the short term, knowing that you will get to see a therapist again, could be a good way to break it into small pieces. I would write down things your coworkers appreciate about you, and really detail out your professional and personal strengths. So you can remember your own value without reference to others. Also, something I did when I have felt intense jealousy with attractive people is I would force myself to think of 5 things I genuinely liked about them in my head. I used to do this on the bus. Honestly it transformed the way I interacted with other women for the rest of my life. It made me feel like I was on their team so I could celebrate their beauty/coolness instead of being opposed to it. Best of luck!!
BadWolf* July 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm I had a coworker that self published some novels and I was so jealous and it made me dislike him. I reminded myself frequently that he was a nice guy, good coworker and nobody was stopping me from writing but me (and I was angry at myself, really). I hope he never got negative vibes from he as he certainly didn’t deserve them.
BadWolf* July 6, 2018 at 12:07 pm Darn you Jealousy!! My least favorite emotion. I’d rather be angry. Anyway, I remind myself that you never know what someone’s life situation might be. Sometimes the people who look “effortless” put in the most effort. She could be getting up 3 hours early to do hair/makeup/wardrobe changes. Is that something you want to do? Honestly, if she looks like a model, she’s probably putting a lot of time, effort and energy into her appearance every single day. That’s not bad to do, but it sounds exhausting to me (I spend my time on hobbies that I’m sure others find absurd). And sadly, she may feel insecure about herself even though you see her as amazing. I’ve met people who seem all easy and beautiful and smart and wonderful and when they let their guard down, they’re just as worried and insecure as I can be. In the proactive side, is there anything that you especially admire that you could add to your life? A nice manicure? Fun jewelry? Some of her clothing styles? Not that you should try to Single White Female her — but there’s nothing wrong with seeing someone with a new hair style and saying, “Hey, I should try a new hair style too.”
Moonbeam Malone* July 6, 2018 at 12:08 pm Slightly awkward situation: there’s a contractor who worked with my company until we recently parted ways due to no-shows/quality issues. She’s going into a new line of work and she just told me she’s listed me as a reference. One of the major reasons for the lapses in service leading up to our ending the arrangement with her was health issues she’s been dealing with, so I’d like to be as kind as I can but I know I will still need to be honest. (She has been in treatment for her issues and as far as I know she’s doing better.) I’d advise her not to list me as a reference (well, too late anyway, apparently?) but I suspect she listed me in the first place because she doesn’t have a lot of other options. Not sure the best way to approach it. I want to send her a quick e-mail giving her at least…a little bit of heads up that I’m going to be honest with hiring managers about the service issues leading up to our ending our relationship with her. I’m not sure I can do this in a kind way without bringing up the fact I knew she had health issues that were interfering with her business, but I also don’t know whether she wants that info on the table. Is it right/appropriate to ask her whether I can tactfully (and vaguely) mention the health problem to hiring managers if they call me? She wasn’t an employee, so it feels like a bit of a gray area.
AMPG* July 6, 2018 at 12:15 pm Honestly, I would decline to be listed as a reference. If she’s entering a new line of work, you can’t speak to the quality of her work in that field, which only leaves her dependability, and you don’t have good things to say about that. If you get calls from employers, you can choose whether to give an honest reference or say that your name was listed without permission and you don’t feel comfortable responding.
imanaccountant* July 6, 2018 at 1:01 pm I would be very careful saying negative things about her, depending on your state, you could end up with a “defamation” issue. You can ask not to be listed as a reference or if you receive a call you can do the “HR” thing. Say as a policy you don’t give out detailed references but your happy to verify that her contract lasted from XX day to XX day.
Nanc* July 6, 2018 at 1:15 pm I would just email her and let her know you can’t be a reference for her and wish her the best of luck in her job search. Just because someone asks doesn’t mean you have to agree. If she still lists you, when someone calls just say that you did not agree to be a reference for her and leave it at that. It sounds harsh but if you can’t give anything more than a lukewarm reference she’s better off looking at other options.
Moonbeam Malone* July 6, 2018 at 3:12 pm Thanks for the advice. I feel badly for her but you’re probably right.
beanie beans* July 6, 2018 at 12:11 pm My last day at soon-to-be old job! Feel like running out of the building like the last day of school!
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 12:56 pm I love that feeling. When I left ToxicJob, I got in the car and ‘Crazy Train’ was playing on the radio so I cranked it up and tore outta there!
That Would Be a Good Band Name* July 6, 2018 at 12:11 pm Just venting about job hunting today. I found out that I didn’t get another job that I was excited about. I’m trying to remain positive that the right thing will come along but it’s tough.
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 1:00 pm It’s very tough. It took me nine months to find a job that allowed me to leave ToxicJob. And that’s still not the worst job-hunting experience I’ve had (s/o to that year I spent unemployed and crying on the floor of my shower at least once a week). But every bad situation I’ve been in with job hunting has ended. Sometimes with a ‘for now’ job, sometimes with a job where I learned important new skills, sometimes with a good job I could see staying in for a while. I believe it will be the same for you. You can do this.
beanie beans* July 6, 2018 at 1:12 pm It’s exhausting and demoralizing! But the right thing WILL come along!
Kat in VA* July 6, 2018 at 1:47 pm I’m right there with you. I made it to the final stages of two jobs, and I just emailed a “pulse check” email to both recruiters (since they’ve been good about being in touch). One got back to me and said they won’t know until they conclude interviews next week, the other one hasn’t replied at all. I’m telling myself that it’s because it’s a holiday week, but that little mean voice deep down inside keeps whispering, “You’re not going to get THESE jobs either…” Job hunting is rough. Getting turned down, strung along, and outright ghosted…also tough. Consensual internet hugs in solidarity!
SophieChotek* July 6, 2018 at 3:24 pm Sorry you are going through this. I like what Lumen said about sometimes the jobs are “for now” jobs.
Kat in VA* July 6, 2018 at 5:29 pm Exactly. If nothing else, both recruiters got back to me… One said they’ll have more information next week after checking in with Potential BossMan™. This particular position has had the most grueling interview schedule ever – application online, assessment, recruiter call, assessment again, then in-office interview with 7 people in total that lasted over 3.5 hours. Did I mention I’m an Executive Assistant? The other recruiter said since it was a holiday week, they couldn’t schedule interviews. Given my interview was a week ago this past Wednesday, this doesn’t give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that I’m a frontrunner. He did note that Potential OtherBossMan™ is super proactive about candidates – if he doesn’t like them, he directs the recruiter to sew them up and show them the door immediately. So another week went by in a holding pattern. /harrumph/ However, neither of them sent me an autoreject email, so I got that goin’ for me.
nep* July 6, 2018 at 8:18 pm It is crazy tough. Nothing really eases the sting of being passed over for a job–especially one you’re really excited about. Nothing except finally getting that offer. One day. And that can come only if we stick with it. Persistence and finding the confidence inside to keep putting ourselves out there=the only way forward. All the best. Keep us posted.
Ack* July 6, 2018 at 12:11 pm How can I recover from over sharing about politics at work? I work in academia, where people have notoriously terrible boundaries when it comes to discussing things that are off-limits in normal work places… So I am far from the only person at work who has disclose their political views. But this is not who I want to be at work, and I’m not sure how to step back and also reassure people through my behavior that I normally have good judgment and can keep my mouth shut, and will do so going forward.
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 1:00 pm All you can do is move forward. Show them your good judgement day after day, and to be honest? They’ll probably forget anything they judged before.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 6:02 am Agree with pp, just move on and make a new rule for yourself not to do it again. Lots of people get agitated sometimes and over-share. All you can do is move on. Apologise to anyone you insulted obviously, but if you just shared views they disagree with that aren’t a direct insult then you shouldn’t apologise.
AMPG* July 6, 2018 at 12:12 pm Here’s a (possibly) interesting crowdsourcing question – how do I convince my CEO to hire a COO? Background: I work for a midsize non-profit as a VP reporting directly to the CEO. I came into this position after a career shift, so while I’m good at my actual job, I don’t have a lot of experience in this particular field. However, it’s become clear to me that the CEO is stretched too thin and we’re too big for him to be handling everything he does. Since he’s been CEO, he’s quadrupled the size of the organization, so it’s understandable that he’s still trying to run as lean as we used to on the management side, but I think we’re not realizing our full potential because we don’t have enough top-level management. The two main objections I anticipate are: 1. Money: Funders never want to pay for “administrative” costs (I have a whole rant about this that I’ll save for another time), so we’d have to figure out how to do it mostly within our current budget. 2. Control: The CEO genuinely likes having his hands in things. He’s talented and not too much of a micromanager, so this is usually not a bad thing, but he’s stretched too thin to work on more high-level work, plus things tend to bottleneck with him. But I think he would really balk at giving up so much control to a COO. Any thoughts about this?
BRR* July 6, 2018 at 1:36 pm I think this is such an interesting question. I would try and use the quadruple size aspect as much as possible. Maybe talk about structure at comparatively sized nonprofits. We were able to do something similar in my department after someone left. Several people lobbied to increase that role in seniority (e.g. the position went from director of spouts to director of teapots).
Bex* July 6, 2018 at 3:33 pm First, projectize as much of your cost structure as possible. If the CEO is putting time directly into programs, charge it accordingly. Same for senior staff. The overhead issue is always a problem, but ensuring that you use full-cost budgets can help alleviate some of that. Second, research orgs at your new size and see what their senior management structure looks like. You should be able to use that to back up your argument for adding some additional staff. Third, how much time is your CEO spending fundraising? I’m a firm believer that it should be about 50% of their time. If they are falling below that marker, especially when you are growing an need the cash to back up that growth, then they need to assess their workstream and offload some things. That would also support the need for an internal facing senior role to handle operations.
AMPG* July 6, 2018 at 4:46 pm The cost structure is part of the problem – currently the CEO charges time to programs that would be better served having a COO be the high-level manager. But if we charged that time to a COO instead, we’d need to find a way to cover that chunk of the CEO’s salary. Good point about the fundraising – the CEO spends a good amount of time on developing new revenue streams (generally grant-based) but not as much on direct fundraising. We know we need to develop an individual donor program but it hasn’t happened.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 6:28 pm Covering CEOs time: Perhaps he could start doing all the things he has on the back burner. Perhaps there compliance activities that are neglected.
Lupin Lady* July 6, 2018 at 12:15 pm Wondering what people’s opinion and experiences are with pushing coworkers to use the term “women” instead of “girl”. I just somewhat abruptly called out my coworker for this and while that departure from professionalism worked out fine (thankfully), does anyone else ever have any stories or experiences?
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 12:28 pm Have you seen this? https://www.askamanager.org/2017/05/how-to-speak-up-when-women-in-your-office-are-called-girls.html. I think the biggest thing is finding the right tone depending on the person you’re talking to so that they hear your message and have the face to adjust without it turning into a power struggle with you.
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 12:29 pm Have you read this: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/05/how-to-speak-up-when-women-in-your-office-are-called-girls.html. I think the biggest thing is finding the right tone so that the person takes you seriously but that they have the space to change without it turning into a power struggle with you.
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm A new hire, Spock, who reports to my supervisor but works in a different building at our site repeatedly called me “kiddo”. When I called Spock out on it, I did it too casually so he didn’t take it seriously. He always justified it by saying that he wasn’t good with names. I thought I was overreacting and should let it go, until I realized that he (male, late 50s) only did it to the administrative assistants like me (female, late 20s) even though we worked with him often, but that he remembered the names of IT folks (male, college students) who rarely interacted with him. I let my supervisor know (just the “kiddo” part, not mentioning the male/female thing) and he talked about it with Spock. Now, he only does it in phone calls, and not anywhere that my supervisor would know. This is stupid garbage and since I started reading AAM, and found that piece from 2017, I’ve taken to calling him out on it Every. Single. Time. Thankfully, my supervisor is scaling back how much my position assists Spock so that he’ll be responsible for his own stuff. Good riddance!
Observer* July 6, 2018 at 7:28 pm What garbage. The fact that he only does it when the supervisor doesn’t hear proves that he CAN deal with your name. Not that YOU needed that proof, but when / if you ever need to talk to anyone about this garbage, it’s a useful thing to point out.
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 1:07 pm One time that jumps out at me was when a coworker several years my junior (who nonetheless was treated much better and received several raises a year for… doing the same thing he always did) called me a ‘girl’. I luckily was standing up while he was sitting down so I was able to LITERALLY talk down to him and say “…Don’t call me a girl. I’m OLDER than you.” And the other coworkers around us laughed at him. And he never did it again. He grumped about it a bit but no one cared. However, that was at ToxicJob where immature playground behavior was normalized and encouraged. In more professional settings I’ve calmly interjected nothing more than “women” when a coworker has spoken of “girls”. Usually the other person (if they, too, are professional and not a jerk) hitches, corrects, and remembers in the future. The fact that I don’t do this angrily usually keeps them from coming back later to make a big production of apologizing to me, but in that case I think I’d say “This wasn’t a personal offense. It’s just more office-appropriate to refer to adult women as women, and not girls.” Simple as that. If they are unprofessional, they make stupid jokes, or make a big deal out of not ‘offending’ you, but… they’re the ones being silly and unprofessional in that case. And I treat them as such.
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 1:29 pm At OldJob, I was asked in a review not to address groups as ‘you guys,’ and while I initially rankled (and had a hard time adjusting to ‘y’all’) I eventually came around. I think I decided that gender is so often irrelevant in the workplace that it just made more sense to eliminate most gendered language from my vocabulary. I’ve found it avoids singling out or erasing women, plus it makes the environment more friendly to trans folks. Win-win!
MarsupialHop* July 6, 2018 at 2:42 pm Thankfully, I haven’t had to do this in a long while. But yes, I call out the speaker if they refer to coworkers as girls. You do it calmly, quietly, without the expectation that it will stop the discussion. “Excuse me, I think you mean women/coworkers.” It is a correction, not a fight.
Canadian Natasha* July 6, 2018 at 8:25 pm No advice, just commiseration. I got in a tiff with a female family member last week who kept referring to her coworkers as girls when talking about her job. Most of the women she was talking about are significantly younger- closer to her children’s age. She also sometimes talks about these coworkers in a way that comes across to me as a bit condescending (which I don’t think she realises) and the impact is enhanced by her frustrating choice of language. She says that she doesn’t see how it is any different than saying “The girls (friends) and I are going out for drinks”. I didn’t have any luck trying to explain the problem to her and the other family members all agreed with her that I was making a big deal over nothing. :(
Lumen* July 9, 2018 at 1:41 pm Ugh, I’m sure that the fact that it was another woman calling women ‘girls’ made them even more keen on shutting you down. But I’m glad you spoke up, even if they didn’t listen (for now).
LKW* July 6, 2018 at 12:17 pm I just need to vent. Had a meeting go completely sideways today because one team is just putting up barriers and is not sharing information. They are complaining that we aren’t sharing information and all of this is a surprise they didn’t plan for except we have meeting minutes from May in which we discussed all of this initially. They’re now saying that they can’t meet proposed deadlines and that we need to go through some unspoken process to move forward and it will cause delays of 3 months. Grrrrr….
Matilda Jefferies* July 6, 2018 at 12:57 pm Good grief, that’s annoying. Vent away, and I hope everything gets sorted soon!
LKW* July 6, 2018 at 1:05 pm Thank you. This particular client has a culture of “That won’t work because…” They respond to everything with “That won’t work because” and won’t tell you how it could work. They treat all problems with the same gravity whether it’s using a term they don’t like (Teacozy versus Tea Warmer) or a missed requirement. Actually they’ll spend more time on the term than on a major missed requirement. I have at least a year left, if I make it that long.
meteoric rise* July 6, 2018 at 12:17 pm Resume advice requested: I’ve received 3 promotions at my current job, and am now an associate director. I started as an intern to get my foot in the door, and then within 2 months I was promoted to the level I should have been hired at, skipping many levels in-between. I know showing promotions is helpful, but I should leave the internship off my resume, right?
That Would Be a Good Band Name* July 6, 2018 at 3:13 pm That sounds close to what I do for OldJob. I was hired in an entry level position, but promoted in 3 months, and then another promotion 3 years later. I only list the two positions that were above entry level and include the first 3 months into the first promoted position. Then follow the two positions I listed with bullet points of the best accomplishments from each. I figure no one is really going to care that I was actually a CSR from Jan 07-Mar 07. Chocolate Analyst, Teapots Corp Jan 2007-Jan 2010 Vanilla Analyst, Teapots Corp Jan 2010-Jan 2016
LadyByTheLake* July 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm Can you change your view of her from jealousy to role model? What about her is “put together” that you can emulate? Focus on that instead of being angry with her for things that she is doing right — you can do those things too.
Rosemary7391* July 6, 2018 at 12:20 pm I’m wondering about applying for jobs where you don’t meet all the requirements. In particular software developer entry level (judging by the payscale). I’ve found a neat looking job that I half meet 3 of the 5 “essential” technical requirements. I think I’d pick up the rest very quickly though. I don’t have any of the desirable ones, but I can tick all of the soft skills type stuff they mention. It’s also 6 months half time; which will surely reduce their potential candidate pool? I’d like to apply but I don’t want to irritate people by being unreasonably underqualified…
H.C.* July 6, 2018 at 12:36 pm I would say apply if you had fully met 3 out of the 5 requirements – but if only half-meet some of their essential requirements, I’d be a bit more wary about applying esp since this is a temp six-months position, which means even less time for them to train you up to their expectations.
Rosemary7391* July 7, 2018 at 4:36 am Thanks – yeah, I know it’s a short timescale to learn stuff. I’d be will to put a bit of extra in, especially since it’s all stuff that I’d be looking to learn soon anyway.
beanie beans* July 6, 2018 at 1:17 pm Eh, I’d say don’t worry about irritating people, go for it and if they think you can learn the essential stuff quickly, let them make the call! If you’re interested in it, apply!
Tara R.* July 6, 2018 at 1:39 pm In my experience software listings vary hugely in how they list their requirements. “Scala, Google Cloud Platform” could mean don’t apply unless you have three years of professional experience in Scala and have worked with GCP extensively, or it could mean “Eh, you’ve worked with Java for two months during an internship, close enough!” As long as you don’t misrepresent yourself, there’s nothing wrong with applying for a job that’s a bit of a stretch– just be prepared to be asked about it.
Rosemary7391* July 7, 2018 at 4:40 am That’s a good thought. It’s definitely entry level pay. I have a lot of experience with the programming language they mention, just not the specific framework (will check out the docs before I apply). And “knowledge of testing, documentation and version control” is pretty vague – I’m aware that those are important and implement them in my code (not adhering to any formal framework though), but I don’t know how that usually plays out in a company vs academia.
Jennifer85* July 10, 2018 at 9:47 am Not sure what you mean by ‘not adhering to any formal framework’ – have you used git or other version control systems? If not probably worth having a play & making sure you understand some of the concepts. Similarly with testing you can probably look up common test frameworks for the language you’re working in & have a go. Sorry if that’s super obvious!
Daughter of Ada and Grace* July 6, 2018 at 2:26 pm Go ahead and apply – if the company doesn’t think you can learn the technical skills fast enough, let them reject you. If you’ve got any of the skills at all, I don’t think anyone will consider your application unreasonable. We’re hiring right now at my company. I’ve looked at the resumes, and the ones who didn’t get asked for a phone interview are ones where 99% of their experience shows they’d be great for a tech role, just not this tech role. Let the company who posted this job make the same decision about you.
Rosemary7391* July 7, 2018 at 4:45 am Thanks! I think my problem at the moment is I’m moving from academia (just finishing my PhD) to industry, and the things I don’t know are pretty standard in industry. Like working with a group of software developers – I’ve only ever written code on my own. But I do know how to play nice with others in general and I’d be perfectly capable of following whatever the protocol is if someone would just tell me.
MarsupialHop* July 6, 2018 at 2:48 pm Apply. If they don’t like your application, they won’t consider it. It costs you nothing.
Someone else* July 6, 2018 at 4:18 pm If by “very quickly” you mean “in less than a month”, go for it.I guess go for it either way because if their “essentials” are truly essential, they could always just reject your application. With a 6-month gig, it’s much more likely the requirements really are required because there isn’t time for you to learn as you go unless it’s something you can pick up to full level in days, not weeks.
Rosemary7391* July 7, 2018 at 4:50 am I do think less than a month for sure – some of the things will probably be a few days just to get used to their way of doing things. I need to look at the framework they use and see about that – but I’d be willing to put in extra on my time for that since I’ve seen it listed in several places and was intending to figure it out after I finish my thesis anyway.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 4:50 pm I don’t want to irritate people by being unreasonably underqualified Even if this does happen, which I don’t think is likely, the worst plausible outcome is that they roll their eyes for 15 seconds and have literally forgotten your name by the next day. I don’t think you’ll end up on some kind of list of Excessively Underqualified Jerks Who Do They Think They Are
Rosemary7391* July 7, 2018 at 4:52 am That’s a good point… I did some hiring for church fairly recently and I can’t remember most of the names, even the person who tried 3 times to send a CV before it finally came through and wasn’t at all qualified.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 6:11 am Hmm, since you think they will have a very small candidate pool it might be worth chancing your arm. Be very clear in your cover letter that you don’t have the 2 essential skills you don’t have, and state clearly how you meet the 3 you do partly have. That way you’re not wasting their time. It’s unlikely they’ll interview you, but as you said, they might have a very small candidate pool. One other thing, since you really meet less than half if the requirements, if they decide you hire you (because they can’t find someone who can do it all) it will be likely they would be basically changing the job into a slightly different job, probably with a lower salary than advertised. So consider ff you would still want it at a lower salary before put a lot of time into an application.
Rosemary7391* July 7, 2018 at 6:40 am That would be fair. I’ve just seen that the position is actually closed now though – the site I originally saw it on had the month wrong on the closing date :( thanks for your advice everyone, I shall bear it in mind in the future!
Some Sort of Management consultant* July 6, 2018 at 12:22 pm I’m a consultant (duh) and work at a client site together with people from other consultning firms. I’ve been helping out in another group at my project, working with new people and a project manager from one of those other firms.. I still work on the same project, but in a different team. My project as a whole has maybe 150 people working on it, and we’re 10 ppl in my team which is made up of several smaller teams of 2-3 people. I’ve switched “tiny teams”, basically. I’ve worked a bit with this “team project manager” before. And I really really have no idea where it goes wrong but the project manager has asked me to do a number of small tasks over the past few weeks. Really minor stuff, like collecting meetings times and checking agendas for mistakes. Things one asks an intern to do. Things I should be able to do in my sleep. Intern-level tasks. And I just keep getting it wrong. For some reason, EVERY single thing ends up wrong. Wrong format, sent to the wrong people, misunderstanding the tasks… We’ve reached a point where the project manager said in a consoling voice this morning: “don’t…do anything without checking with me first. “ She’s been very apologetic and conciliatory, but even that is getting ridiculous. I’m not a new graduate, I don’t need to be coddled. Something clearly isn’t working out in our communication, but I just can’t see where the problem is stemming from. Some of the stuff: – Collected meeting agendas from a group of people, and apparently I offended some of them by contacting the wrong people when I should’ve gone through their manager and there’s been HUGE drama – Put together a document and sent it out for review – when I shouldn’t’ve send it before my project manager had looked through it – made changes to a presentation that weren’t the correct ones – booked a meeting to help a new person out when I wasn’t allowed to do that, only direct her to specific introduction sessions After the first one happened, she told me that I’d better not talk to any of the people in that group for a while. After the second, she told me not to talk to that group. And today she said that i should just run everything through her and not contact anybody directly. We discussed the problem this morning and booked a meeting next week to try to work out some way to fix this. But I hate that she doesn’t trust me to do anything right now. We also mostly communicate in person, except for when we’re sending material back and forth. I’d love suggestions and thoughts about how I can identify where things go wrong or upliftning stories about fixing communication out of syns.
LKW* July 6, 2018 at 1:13 pm It definitely sounds like there are a lot of unspoken rules or there is a process that you’re either unaware of or are not following. I’ve been on both sides of this situation and both sides suck. Sometimes you are rushing and you just make things worse. That’s what the second and third ones sound like. The first sounds like a defined channel of which you were not aware. The fourth – not sure why you’re not allowed to help someone out, that’s kind of weird. So first off, breathe. Second, clarify. Summarize and ask questions at the end of a meeting to confirm “I’m going to type this up and then send out or send to you to send out?” Since you’re struggling with this person – schedule 15 minutes to just recap the day and set the next day forth. But maybe you’re just burned out and need to take a few days off to clear your head and reset.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 6:37 pm You have been set up to fail. You are not being given enough information to do the job correctly and when you fail they pounce. It could be that their culture is “relishing people’s failures”. I have worked for places that do not like success, they prefer to see themselves as “martyrs for The Cause”. Part of the culture was to make sure I made plenty of mistakes and we spent a lot of time going over the mistakes. If you must stay at the job, you might end up just reviewing everything with someone before you do it. Keep a log book so you can remember some of the more obscure stuff. Sorry no uplifting stories. They want a mind reader.
LGC* July 6, 2018 at 7:06 pm Well, you answered your own question: you’re messing up because you’re doing intern-level work! I’m actually serious about that. I’m guessing that you’re normally a more big picture worker, but all of the mistakes you listed were really small bore things. More specifically, it sounds like they’re mostly social faux pas – you did what was needed, just not the way people would like. And that’s…not great, but it’s understandable – your job probably isn’t to be administrative support. I’d probably consider taking notes on who is in charge of what – it sounds like your clients are protective of their turf. Ask for clarification from your project manager on what she wants. And also I don’t know what you did, but if your clients are freaking out because you didn’t get meeting agendas from the right people, they…sound difficult. Also if it makes you feel better, I got blasted this week by a VP for billing X and Y separately when he originally wanted them together. They were for two separate projects for the same customer over separate time frames. To be honest I think his way is wrong, but I just fixed it because I’m not the boss. (And because it took a couple of minutes to fix it with an appropriately contrite message.)
Ruth* July 6, 2018 at 7:09 pm 1. None of those are mistakes, except possibly the third one. 2. The “huge drama” is bizarre: I can’t imagine people getting upset over you not contacting them via their manager. 3. Insofar as anyone is to blame, it’s the person who’s giving you tasks without giving all the info you need to do them. And then blaming you! 4. It’s weird that you’re being given tasks that are more junior than your role. Here’s an idea. Imagine that it’s ten years from now and you’re in a job interview. You get asked to describe a difficult work situation and how you overcame it. Describe this situation and then fill in what you could do.
ronda* July 6, 2018 at 7:58 pm well looks like you have to clarify everything in every detail before it can be done. I have actually done a lot of that with my boss….. exactly who needs to know this and exactly what do they need to know and exactly when does this need to be done….. etc. It feels stupid, but she knows these people better and so I ask. There of lots of things she can’t answer without talking to the 2 bosses above, cause that is just how things seem to work at this company. I have also worked on projects with very detailed communication plans. Who told what and when are they told, maybe you have one of those that you just are not aware of.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 6:16 am It sounds like a communications problem, and also a load of unwritten rules you couldn’t possibly know about, and also a load of silly office politics (Who the hell gets annoyed when someone sends a request to the wrong person on a team – just forward it and let them know who the right person is). I think it’s not that your manager doesn’t trust you or that you’re doing things wrong, it’s that your manager has all this inside knowledge she hasn’t yet had a chance to pass on to you. She’s doing the right thing by setting aside time specifically to talk to you about it, and in the meantime teling you to double check everything. It really sounds like this team could benefit from some written procedures or charts for how to do this sort of thing, so I would suggest that.
A Username For This Site* July 7, 2018 at 12:11 pm Also, it might be that the boss is deliberately withholding the inside knowledge. I’ve worked with people like that, they withhold information that a new person couldn’t possibly know on their own so they can lord it over said new person as being unqualified for the job.
Lady Dedlock* July 6, 2018 at 12:30 pm How long is too long to stay at one organization? I’ve been at my current workplace for 8 years now. I’ve been promoted three times and have a pretty decent title and salary now, but am I hurting my career in the long run by staying?
imanaccountant* July 6, 2018 at 12:55 pm So long as you are moving up in title and salary, I say no. My industry is know for having people stay their entire career. It never hurts to get a “second opinion” every few years, to see if your salary is actually market. Sometimes people who are internally promoted end up woefully underpaid.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 4:46 pm I don’t know if there’s one answer to this. It depends on so many variables – is your current company good and healthy, is this pretty normal (or at least not uncommon) in your industry, what do you actually want out of your career? But overall, I’d focus more on whether or not you’re happy where you are and feel like you’re doing what you want to be doing. Worrying too much about how your current position will affect your career is a lot like picking your car based on how much you can sell it for later, when the most important thing is that you like how it drives now.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 6:18 am A guy just retired after 48 years at my company. As long as you’re happy you don’t need to move.
MsChandandlerBong* July 6, 2018 at 12:30 pm I am annoyed. My company is small and has a bit of “start-up culture” going on. They are not great about HR, policy issues, consistency, etc. Anyway, my pay got messed up on Monday. It is now Friday. Have they fixed it? No. I am lucky that my circumstances have improved over the past couple of years; in 2016, my checking account would have been down to $1.18 and I’d be desperately awaiting my pay to prevent overdrafting my account. Now I have a cushion, so it’s not really hurting me, but I am still annoyed. If I owed an employee $1,500, it would be all I could think about until I fixed the error.
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 12:45 pm Your annoyance is definitely justified. They don’t have any way of knowing that you can get by without pay for a week, so that shouldn’t really change the conversation. I don’t know if there is actually a wage law that prevents this, but could you say something like, “I’m following up about Monday’s paycheck mistake. When will you be able to provide the corrected paycheck? I just want to make sure that we’re in compliance with (your state)’s wage laws.” I know that mistakes happen, but an employer should do everything to make this right as soon as possible.
MsChandandlerBong* July 6, 2018 at 2:05 pm It’s actually my freelance pay (I work full-time and do assignments on the side), so I don’t think wage laws apply. I asked my boss yesterday if he could send my pay–no answer to my message, and still no payment. This is not helping me with the panicked feeling I have that I am about to get fired. No, I didn’t do anything egregiously wrong, and no one has said anything to me about my work, but I just have a bad feeling, probably because my personal life is in upheaval. We are buying a house in the fall, and if I lose my job, we can’t get a mortgage. So maybe I am just being overly sensitive.
Observer* July 6, 2018 at 7:33 pm Start looking for a new client. Unless they are banana crackers dysfunctional, this is not how you fire someone. But still – messing up something like this and then basically going dark is a really bad thing to do. You want to work for someone a touch more reliable if you can.
MissCPA* July 6, 2018 at 2:20 pm some companies will run the mistake through with the next payroll cycle because it is easier for them. Not saying it’s right, because when I ran payroll I would bend over backwards to make sure employees had their money on time, but it might be worth it to check back in and tell them you need it fixed ASAP.
MsChandandlerBong* July 6, 2018 at 2:58 pm Sorry, didn’t mention in my OP that this is my freelance pay, not my FT job pay (I work full-time for the company and do freelance stuff on nights and weekends). All my boss would have to do is log in to Paypal and send the money.
Canadian Jessie* July 6, 2018 at 3:00 pm Be happy you don’t work for the Canadian Federal Government – a lot of our pays are getting screwed up – getting paid too much (and having it clawed back in awkward ways), getting paid too little, or getting no pay checks at all. Hasn’t affected me yet (knock on wood) but my boss has gotten pay checks for less than 10$ 3 times in the past year, and they each took weeks, if not longer, to resolve!
SCshisho* July 6, 2018 at 12:32 pm First Friday Book Club thread (sorry it’s late!) We’re reading and discussing Alison’s latest book for our first go-round. This isn’t a closed group, please join in! Next discussion will be August 3rd, and with 6 votes in the previous poll, we’re reading Thrive, by Arianna Huffington. (You don’t have to read or discuss every book/month to participate) My user name links to the current poll for deciding on the September 7th read, please head over and vote for titles that you think are interesting. I’m not thinking we’ll have any sort of formal discussion rules, but I’ve got a 3-Points question to start us up; What’s 1 thing you really liked about “Ask A Manager” 1 thing you were disappointed in or disliked about it 1 thing you were surprised by? I loved that it was written in the same conversational tone that Alison uses here. I really respond well to that format for advice-giving, and it works really well for this topic, because I think for work stuff, people either tend towards overly formal, frosty, or heated. I was disappointed that lots (maybe all?) of the “OMG” examples were well-known ones from the blog here. I was hoping to get some juicy stories that I hadn’t already read about. I was surprised by the basic nature of most of the conversations. I guess here we really get into the 301-level issues, but it does make sense that someone non-confrontational or new to the workplace would need just as much guidance on basic issues also. Who’s next?
SCshisho* July 6, 2018 at 12:36 pm PS – the current landing page with info, proposed titles, and another link to the current poll is here: http://scshisho.blogspot.com/2018/06/ask-manager-work-stuff-book-club.html
The Curator* July 6, 2018 at 2:37 pm 1 thing you really liked about “Ask A Manager” Interesting enough, I loved the “basic” nature of it. It feels like the handbook to work or a toolkit for the “new to work” The language is easy to understand and the “case studies” are interesting examples. 1 thing you were disappointed in or disliked about it I really didn’t like the illustrations. They felt amateurish and didn’t add to my understanding of the text. 1 thing you were surprised by? I was surprised about the accessibility. Although I missed the “in jokes” I appreciated the straight-forwardness. I bought a whole pile for recent graduates in my department.
Victoria Nonprofit (USA)* July 6, 2018 at 4:06 pm I haven’t read it yet so I can’t join in this time (will we have threads on every Friday post for the month? That would be great, so folks who finish the book throughout the month can participate), but can I suggest a couple of other questions that I love to talk about in other book clubs? These are all really getting at the same idea, so whatever works: -What did the book make you wonder about? – What questions did you have after finishing the book? – Who would you recommend the book for?
SCshisho* July 6, 2018 at 4:37 pm That’s a good idea: maybe having the first friday be the initial discussion post, and then have continuing mini-threads after that to catch people up. I’m usually around, so I can keep starting them every friday if that’s something people would be interested in. I do want to be aware of not clogging the comment section up for people who aren’t interested in participating. The book made me wonder if all workplaces are dysfunctional on some level – like, do you just have to pick what dysfunction you’re willing to put up with? Or maybe its a case of finding a place to work where your baggage meshes well with their baggage? I didn’t really have any questions after I finished it, but I’d love to chat with Alison someday. She sounds really cool and chill. I recommend the book for anyone who is new to the workforce, or who has been socialized to be “easygoing” or someone who is conflict-avoidant.
Victoria Nonprofit (USA)* July 6, 2018 at 5:25 pm Yeah, I think all workplaces have their own problems. Maybe “dysfunctional” isn’t right, but certainly I’ve never worked anywhere that wasn’t effed up in one way or another. (What’s the saying? You have to pick what flavor of sh*t sandwich you want to eat?)
SCshisho* July 6, 2018 at 12:33 pm Erg, nesting fail… I’ll try again to leave it at top-level so people can actually find us. :)
Anon anony* July 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm Has anyone ever worked with a co-worker who ran hot and cold, so you never knew where you stood with them? The woman who sits with me is like this- sometimes we talk and I think everything is fine. Other times, she will only say “Good morning” to me and will literally talk to everyone else except me. Besides all of this, she can be very funny and nice sometimes, but not all of the time. It’s like she’s playing a game, but only she knows the rules. It gets old. I try complimenting her and asking how her family is, but it’s tiring and getting old. I am nice to her regardless, but it’s annoying. Why bother? Any advice? How did you deal with someone like this?
Lumen* July 6, 2018 at 1:11 pm Ask yourself how much you want to be friends with this woman, even work-friends. She doesn’t sound that pleasant, even on days when she’s decided to be pleasant. Personally, I’d let her play her game. Baseline is: ignore her. Initiate nothing – let her come to you or not come to you depending on her rules that day. If she’s funny and nice to you, and you feel like it, be funny and nice back. If she’s cold or rude or aloof, ignore her. And either way? I wouldn’t invest in or read much into it. It’s clearly about her, and her behavior has nothing to do with you.
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 1:22 pm Oh no, I’m sure I’ve come across this way in past positions! I can’t speak to your coworker’s behavior, but I’m a very introverted and socially anxious person, but I mask it very well. Palling around with coworkers drains me, so I prefer to limit socialization at work — I’m just not able to be bubbly and friendly every day, not without turning myself into an anxious, stressed-out mess. I get my work done and am always polite, if reserved. I might be projecting, but I wouldn’t assume malice on her part. As long as she’s not openly or obviously hostile or cruel, I’d probably assume she’s a big ol’ weirdo and resolve to ignore her. Sounds like you’re not going to be able to facilitate a friendship with her, so I’d let that expectation go, even if you can’t let go of your frustration with her.
Match* July 6, 2018 at 1:54 pm Similar situation. I was bothered by my coworker’s sudden chilly demeanor. I immediately self evaluated to see if I was somehow responsible for the shun. Nothing. I then tried to initiate simple conversations while at our work stations. She replied with one worded responses. After a week of this, feeling terribly uncomfortable, I just stopped. I do my work and only address her when necessary and nothing more. I realize that for some people, this behavior works as a power play. Not playing the game. I feel empowered after making the switch. Hope this helps.
Former Retail Manager* July 6, 2018 at 1:57 pm Ahhh…yes. There is someone like this in my office…Jekkyl and Hyde. I say “good morning” to her on occasion and take my cues from her. If it’s a good day, she may chat for a couple minutes. If it’s a bad day, she may just reply and keep moving or she may say nothing. I don’t take it personal. I try to tell myself that I never know what she may be going through and maybe there is good reason for her to be this way (I don’t really think there is, but framing it this way helps me.) I don’t need to work with her to do my job, so that’s also helpful. I don’t take it personal because I know that I’ve never done anything to her. It’s an issue with your co-worker, not you.
MarsupialHop* July 6, 2018 at 2:56 pm You become uniformly pleasant to her. Standardize your side of the interaction. She is the one who is ‘blowing hot and cold’ – so let her side of the interaction be erratic. Your part remains uniformly pleasant, and not based on her side. That means you don’t interact beyond pleasantries, you don’t reach out to her, you don’t confide in her. You don’t explain your day/your feelings/your actions– you will always be uniformly pleasant.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 6:20 am I think you are way overthinking this. Some days she feels like talking to you, other days she’s doesnt. It’s a bit weird but not actually insulting. Just leave her be and get on with your work.
AnonGirl for Now* July 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm There is a middle manager at work who has the support of the deputy GM. She has started to act like she managed everyone, including me (my manager is the GM). She keeps telling people (in e-mail, clients also cc-ed) what to do, in a tone that shows she knows better and she decides who does what. When I saw her last e-mail I talked back to my laptop screen which I really regret because my inten was sitting next to me. And this time, while this manager’s tone was still not appropriate for the hierarchy (we are different departments and there is no hierarchy in fact; she’s been with the company a lot longer than I have and she’s somewhat older than me, that’s it), she was just sending me a request that had been mistakenly sent to her. My intern knows that she is often rude to other departments but I still shouldn’t have involved her in this. I explained her what she had already seen, that said manager has this tendency to act like the boss of it all, and I also said that of course this makes people react badly to the few normal requests she sends. So this is just a reminder to myself to be more professional in this regard.
Your Weird Uncle* July 6, 2018 at 4:38 pm I had a coworker like that, so I can sympathize with you! She wasn’t really a manager, although she had ‘manager’ in her title (she managed processes, not people). But she really, really wanted to be a manager of people, and it was really hard to anticipate how she’d try to boss me around. Every time I thought I’d addressed it with her, something new would come up and she’d be right back at it. Anyway, just wanted to say I know how draining it can be. I left about a year ago and the woman who took my job told another coworker about 4 months in that she wanted to quit because of BossyPants.
What just happened?* July 6, 2018 at 12:40 pm I had a job interview on Tuesday. I feel so weird saying that. If you had told me even two weeks ago that I would be on here saying that, I would have thought you were crazy. I am very happy in my current job (3 years) and so I was definitely not looking for a change. I always keep my ears open, but nothing has tempted me away from where I am- until now. Suddenly there is this opportunity for a company that I really admire, in a roll that is a step up from what I am currently doing, and I meet every single point on the job description. I applied within a day of seeing the posting, and a few days later got a call to interview. I feel like the interview went very well, and at the end of it they invited me back for a 2nd interview, to speak with a few other members of the company. I know this process is far from over, and I feel confident but not like I’m a “shoo-in”- it’s very possible I won’t get it, but this all happened so fast that it’s like it hasn’t sunk in for me until now that there is a real possibility that I will be leaving my current job. I’ve never left a job that I LIKED! in the past I have left jobs because i was in some way unhappy, but in this case it has nothing to do with my current job and everything to do with the other opportunity. I’m a little sad thinking about it. But at the same time, really EXCITED about the opportunity at the other company. No question here really- just feeling a little all over the place right now and wanted to get it off my chest.
Miss Pantalones en Fuego* July 6, 2018 at 5:07 pm Are you me? Something similar is going on for me. I’m working at a place I like and just got a long contract extension, the longest one I’ve had yet in a field that is almost exclusively short-term contracts. But the other week I got an email out of the blue from someone I met at a professional event last year asking if I’d be interested in applying for a job with them, in a role that seems more and more like they are writing it specifically for me. I’ve never, ever been headhunted or anything like it before, and it seems like a major opportunity, but I also feel wierd and sad about the possibility of leaving my current job, even though nothing is set in stone yet.
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 9:22 pm I had an opportunity just about fall in my lap that was perfect for me. Like you, I wasn’t unhappy, but when this one came up, I just couldn’t say no. I have never regretted it. 5 years later and I’m still at the same place and can’t imagine leaving. Go for it!!
No more wedding talk* July 6, 2018 at 12:42 pm I am tired of hearing my coworker talk about her proposal, engagement and her upcoming wedding. Three months since she got engaged and the wedding is 9 months away. I get she’s excited and I am happy for her and her girlfriend but I’m tired of hearing about it all day long. She doesn’t take hints or listen when people tell her to stop. She is an otherwise nice person. But I wish she would stop. That is all. Rant over.
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 12:50 pm If you have a friendly relationship with her, you could talk to her about it, although it sounds like people might have already tried this. If they’ve only hinted, try something very direct like, “We’re so happy that you’re excited about your upcoming wedding, but it is not appropriate to discuss every wedding detail at work. It would be better to save this for your wedding planner or maid-of-honor.”
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 2:29 pm Eugh, I wouldn’t want to hear that wording from a peer – it sounds like a kindergarten teacher talking to one of their charges, not one peer talking to another. Nor would I consider it direct at all since the speaker is trying to pin it on the All-Mighty Appropriateness, when the actual problem is their own lack of interest.
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 2:51 pm I think it is Inappropriate (or maybe Unprofessional) to incessantly discuss wedding plans at work because it crosses the line into too much personal information, especially if it comes up multiple times per day. Someone with the right relationship could say something to distinguish the line between friendly and oversharing, to let the coworker know, “We are your coworkers, not your girlfriend/therapist/wedding planner”. I had an oversharing coworker (who was toxic for a lot of other reasons) and now that I’ve read AAM, I wish that I had said something instead of assuming that she would figure it out on her own. She will never figure it out on her own, she will just change the topic that she is oversharing about.
Natalie* July 6, 2018 at 3:17 pm I didn’t say engaged coworker’s behavior was acceptable. That doesn’t really change the fact that, generally speaking, coworkers shouldn’t correct each other on professionalism – that’s a manager’s job.
Argh!* July 6, 2018 at 3:08 pm I agree. Some people get into wedding talk & others don’t. If there are willing listeners, it won’t break her heart to withhold the latest thing from that one person who isn’t interested. And as a woman, it seriously p****s me off that I’m expected to listen to wedding and baby stories. Nope, never wanted a child, and in my family, weddings are simple and not obsessed-over, which is how I like it. I wonder if this is why almost all of my closest work friends have been men. Also, when I’m at work, if I’m going to talk about personal business, it should be funny, unusual, or about a spouse/child/dog/neighbor I’ve actually met. I’ve had this conversation a few times. “Hey, Barbie, I’m very happy for you, but I have a limit on wedding talk and we’re past that limit. It’s a new thing for you, but I’ve listened to a lot of wedding talk and it all sounds the same if you only know one of the people involved. Can we talk about something else?” This may sting for a moment, but this is a temporary life thing for them anyway. I do listen to a little of it, in exchange for the promise of future listening about my gall bladder or car shopping, but if it’s always one-way with a person, I generally just let my eyes glaze over then say “That’s nice” and walk away or put on headphones.
Feigned interest* July 6, 2018 at 6:47 pm Hahaha. Right? It might help if people would take the time to measure their audiences interests before sharing.
..Kat..* July 7, 2018 at 6:34 am I think the problem is that if she is spending a lot of time talking about it, she is not doing her job.
Mariella* July 7, 2018 at 11:43 am I think we have the same colleague… if shes going on holiday she will spend 3 to 4 weeks beforehand talking about it. She also tells the sales reps everytime they call (multiple times daily) then goes around telling everyone upstairs and then downstairs and then coming up to the phone to tell the stories again! Its infuriating. She wastes 3 to 4 hours a day at the moment doing this. And after she comes back from holiday does the same thing for 2 to 3 weeks telling everyone about it. She did this for her wedding too. I feel your pain.
jnsunique* July 6, 2018 at 12:48 pm I’d love some advice on this: I’m a middle-level manager of 2 engineers. I’m an engineer myself and worked my way up. I hired Fergus a few years ago right out of college. It’s been about 3 years and he isn’t reaching his potential. He’s a mediocre performer. He does the minimum required, and he’s in a position where he really needs to take ownership of his areas and start following through on his own ideas. He’s behaving more like a technician who needs instructions than an engineer, who is supposed to find problems and solve them. Fergus just waits for me to tell him what to do. There will be a crisis in an area I assigned to him, and he won’t do anything until I tell him to! He’s very pleasant and helpful when asked, but very slow to follow through and I feel like he just doesn’t care very much. I’ve pushed him (stopped by his desk several times to request updates, one-on-one meetings, set up calls for him when he took weeks to do it himself, etc) and had larger perspective talks with him, and I’m planning another talk next week before I put him on a PIP. It seems to me like there’s a thing where some people get bored or in a rut with their jobs a few years in and need to move on. He had more initiative his first 6 months than now. Has anyone had that experience from either side? I get the impression he’s not going to change much, and I’m inclined to ask him to start thinking about a career outside our corporation. Has anybody had one of those talks, and how did it go?
Argh!* July 6, 2018 at 3:27 pm ~~~I’ve pushed him (stopped by his desk several times to request updates, one-on-one meetings, set up calls for him when he took weeks to do it himself, ~~~ You call it pushing, but he’ll call it micro-managing. It’s also enabling. I have one of these people. Some people are reactive rather than proactive, and it’s very hard for them to change. If you’re nudging and nagging, you’re giving him more to react to — to stop procrastinating or to rebel against and procrastinate more. My person will never be a high achiever, and it’s a struggle to get to “meets expectations” on the annual review. I put deadlines into the one-on-ones, and follow up with an email stating what we’d discussed. That becomes a kind of to-do list, though this person still procrastinates and does the minimum on things they don’t find interesting. So far, what’s (somewhat) worked for me: Stop nagging. Don’t look over their shoulder. Stop nit-picking (if you do that). Stop correcting their work. Have them correct it themselves (accountability). If they can’t break things up into smaller parts, break it up for them and give those parts individual deadlines. (My problem person seriously cannot think about anything that’s not in front of them, i.e., a “P” in Myers-Briggs typology). Use Outlook calendar to put those deadlines into his calendar (New –> Task –> Assign Task) This way you won’t feel you have to hover in person. (cc: yourself so you remember what you did!) Don’t ever step in and complete a task or contact someone in your report’s place. They can’t own their job if you’re partly owning it yourself. Since 3 years isn’t old-timer territory, your conversation can go like this: “You’ve got the basics down by now, so from now on I expect you (or I’d like you to…) to be more proactive in managing your time and your work. Also, I’d like to be more hands-off in general. What is your take on this? Are there some times when you still need my help? Are there some other times when I just get in the way? For your next stage of development, let’s do this…” You’re not in PIP territory until you’ve documented discussions & your attempts to work together to resolve this issue. For example, you need to document deadlines, him agreeing to the deadline, him missing the deadline, you giving feedback about a missed deadline (with a warning), sending him to time management training, and a paper trail of verbal and written warnings. An official PIP is the very last step to take. Good luck and let us know how things develop.
jnsunique* July 6, 2018 at 3:54 pm Thanks for the feedback! I don’t think I manage him enough, to be honest. It’s only the highest priority, urgent stuff I push him on. The other stuff, I let him miss the deadlines. Priorities are always changing, so deadlines are just a target here. I’ve had a few conversations with him already, documented. For this position, I think that there is a limit to how much I can manage him into good performance. He has the training and knowledge. He avoids taking on new responsibilities, claims he doesn’t know something was his job, and does the minimum. I need someone who takes initiative and ownership. I’ve brought that up in his past 2 performance reviews. The culture in my department is generally that we fill all the gaps in the organization – if something isn’t being done by another department, we handle it. So it really bothers me that he no longer tries. I believe he thinks that my expectations are unreasonable, but that really doesn’t matter. I do the work too, so I know what it takes.
Argh!* July 6, 2018 at 4:33 pm Some people are just plain lazy. I have been able to find “goody” jobs for people who are not particularly interested in their main duties, which does help morale some, but another bonus is that it shows they *can* accomplish a complicated task without my intervention. If they can, then it becomes their own standard for them to live up to. If they can’t even when it’s something that should pique their interest, then that’s troubling. Doing just enough not to get fired is a very low bar for someone to live down to. It sounds like that’s what you’re dealing with. Some people just have no idea what it’s like to work hard. I haven’t used the L-word yet (Lazy) but sometimes it’s the true problem. Good luck with this!
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 6:29 am You can’t teach somebody a work ethic. Put him on the PIP. Maybe that will light a fire under him and make him realise that he needs to get his act together. If not, being fired is probably the best thing you can do for him. Some people can’t learn just by having consequences explained to them – they need to actually experience the consequences. It sounds like he’s been given plenty of warnings and explanations about what he needs to do already.
rubyrose* July 6, 2018 at 3:39 pm Have you used/are you going to use the direct language you have used in presenting this to us? Actually telling him he is doing the minimum required, behaving like a technician? If you have not, now is the time. If it really is that he is just in a rut and wants this job, he will immediately change his behavior. But don’t be surprised if his initial reaction is one of not comprehending what you are saying. The best you can do is lay out examples of poor performance and specific examples of the behaviors you wanted to see. I would not ask him to start thinking about a career with another organization. I would make this very behavior based. If he cannot figure out that if he does not change his behavior he is out, there are larger problems that I suggest you should not take on with him.
jnsunique* July 6, 2018 at 4:41 pm I haven’t yet told him explicitly that he’s lacking the initiative I need. In his last performance review in March, he got “did not meet expectations” and I told him that he wasn’t getting enough done. I asked him to come back to me with a plan the next week to improve his time management. I discussed some options (classes) and suggested that he spend some time on Google to figure out what would work best for him. I even set up a meeting for it (we discussed other things). Nothing. To be fair, I didn’t hold him to it (but don’t think I should have to). I gave him a book, but he admitted he isn’t the book type and I doubt he’s opened it. I also told him that I’d be giving him smaller projects and that if he did well, I’d start giving him larger projects. I wanted to focus our talks mostly on development – so that next year he can meet or exceed expectations. I have also talked to him about what his interests are and what he likes best, so I can try to assign him work he gets excited about, and encourage him to follow through on ideas he has in those areas. He really hasn’t shown interest in wanting to improve – words but no actions. My conversation next week will be a follow up to this, along with the lacking initiative/ownership talk. I’m sure he takes me seriously – I fired one of his colleagues in March for poor performance, and he’s smart enough to figure it out if he gets a poor performance evaluation and then sees someone get fired the same month. It’s frustrating because he’s so nice, and helpful, and he’s smart enough to do this stuff. It appears that he lacks the interest or will. I’m trying hard to avoid giving you my theories as to why, because it doesn’t matter! A PIP is really the next step. My supervisor tells me that a few people have really shaped up after being on one and there were long-term improvements. But if he isn’t interested in improving, I’d prefer to transition him out rather than terminate him. It feels like he isn’t bad enough to fire, but I remember Alison’s stuff about the difference between a poor performer and a top performer. I could probably cover 80% of his work with 20% of my time. I used to do all the work in the department, and he was hired to help me.
Argh!* July 6, 2018 at 4:56 pm Yes, it could turn him around if he doubts your sincerity. Since you’ve given him mixed signals, it may be a good idea. Or, his next project could be a kind of mini-PIP with the threat of an official one if he doesn’t meet expectations.
rubyrose* July 6, 2018 at 6:18 pm It sounds to me like you have really gone out of your way to help him. I applaud you for actively trying to get this turned around for him. The problem seems to be, in addition to the l-word, that he is not appreciative of what you have been doing. I would suggest it is time for you to put in less time providing him with resources and more time holding him accountable. Time to put the onus on him. Tell him to set up the meetings you want. Hold him responsible for showing up and presenting his plan. Give him the assignment of, say, reporting on several chapters of the book. Make him put some skin in this game. And if he does not follow through, a PIP with a short time frame to show positive improvement is in order. Your time is valuable and spending it baby sitting this person is not good for you or for your company.
R* July 6, 2018 at 7:24 pm I’m not sure what you’ve done to address this issue, but it doesn’t sound like a PIP is appropriate at this time. In your annual review you should be telling him what you want him to achieve for the year. It sounds like he needs an objective of taking more responsibility. Make that a measurable goal. Other objectives might include productivity and quality of work. Again, make them measurable. I had an employee like this once. His parents had factory jobs and he saw employment as being paid for being in the office and doing what you’re told, which wasn’t acceptable in our office. I explained (nicely) that he needed to take more responsibility and produce higher quality deliverables (ie not rely on me to catch his many mistakes). Then I had to come up with specific goals: create a project from start to finish, etc. He got better. It was time consuming for me but that’s what being a manager is about.
Argh!* July 6, 2018 at 11:04 pm That explains my current problem person perfectly! Just does not have a professional concept of work.
Nervous Accountant* July 6, 2018 at 12:49 pm Something a bit more different from my typical questions….I’ve been tasked with writing a manual about making one of our processes (payroll) more efficient. It’s something I wanted to do a while back but never really got around to it. Now that we’re growing, we’re constantly making efforts to train newcomers & current employees on everything (soft skills, tax prep, bookkeeping, etc) and provide clear instructions on internal and external processes. I’m home today so I don’t have access to items but I want to do a bulk of the brainstorming today and over the weekend. What are some of the things I should think of and consider
LizB* July 6, 2018 at 12:52 pm When I’m doing a project like that, I usually start by making a table of contents before I start actually writing the manual itself. That helps me organize my thoughts, and also makes navigating around the document easier if you have a clickable TOC.
imanaccountant* July 6, 2018 at 1:14 pm +1 to LizB table of contents is necessary. I’ve recently started doing this myself, we have so many processes, and so little time for training. We made the decision to make powerpoint videos, it’s basically a powerpoint presentation with slides that either contain narration or are screen recordings. The screen recordings are helpful with repetitive processes that are easy. I have made a video that is literally 20 minuets of me talking someone through a click by click how-to. Also when you get dumb questions, you get the have the very satisfying “did you watch the video” or “go watch slide 7”.
LCL* July 6, 2018 at 5:17 pm For brainstorming, I often start by writing up every detail of the existing process. Even if the process is soon to be obsolete and you are supposed to be writing up the new process not the existing one. As you write this out you will also start writing out how this should be changed. I usually number everything, almost like an outline but without the nesting part. Then I cut and paste and have to renumber everything.
NaoNao* July 6, 2018 at 6:41 pm This question was made for me! I’m an instructional designer, meaning I design and make training materials as a job. My process: Analysis: decide what you need your learners to be able to DO by the end (1-3 objectives per topic, and make those clear and definable, not “will understand”. Make it measurable “At the end of this topic, you’ll be able to use X tool to complete X job in X timeframe.”) Break those down as low/easy as you can. Start with how to open/access/install tools and how to create new documents and save, naming conventions, storage, things like that. Don’t assume they’re starting with “Data Entry”, scale it back to “Opening a new file on Excel”. Design: Decide on your format, courses, modules, sections, and content. Develop: fill in your content and run it by experts Evaluate: include a way learners can contact you with changes, questions, reactions, updates, and so on. One way I decide on objectives is to “reverse engineer”. I ask myself “What does a successful X learner do every day?” So “X process using X tool in 15 minutes or less.” Okay, what are the characteristics or choices or tools or behaviors that they need to achieve that?” Then teach to those. So if someone needs to know Excel, make sure there’s a section saying “In order to access and use Excel, you need: A computer running Windows 10 or higher Microsoft Office installed and up to date Excel application open Excel file open and saved under Naming Convention in Special File Server” or whatever! Then your objectives would be Learners will be able to complete 10 rows of accurate data entry using Excel in 10 minutes or less by the end of this lesson. Learners will be able to double check their work using the Nervous Accountant method by the end of this lesson, with the expected outcome of 1 or less error per 100 lines. Or whatever! Good luck!
JessicaTate* July 6, 2018 at 6:59 pm I would suggest starting by thinking about who are the end-users of this manual. Who are they? How / in what situations will they be using this manual? How much do they already know (or not know)? You can better organize the information if you think about the end-user’s use first. And if a TOC is too linear to start, sometimes more free-form idea mapping is helpful. So, on paper (by hand, not linear) jot down the major topics you think this needs to cover. Then, what shoots off of each of those topics? Then, what are any connections between topics or sub-topics you’ve noted? Does a different potential structure get revealed?
Anonymosity* July 6, 2018 at 12:49 pm I got this email yesterday from an employer I’d applied to in February: Dear Anonymosity, Thank you for your interest in employment with [CoolMuseum]. We have reviewed your resume and have carefully considered your qualifications, but unfortunately, the [CoolMuseum] will not be hiring for the [ThingI’dLikeToDo] position. In order to more effectively meet the needs of the [CoolMuseum], we will be re-framing this position, to focus more on the position’s effort on science content development for exhibits. The job description is currently being reworked, the position reframed and will be posted in a couple of weeks. We sincerely thank you for your patience through this entire process and wish you the best in the future. So I guess that means “we got a ton of people like you who think they could do this” — I know I could have — “but we want mid to upper-level skills and a science degree for an entry-level writing position please don’t re-apply”? :\ Also, I have an interview on Monday for an executive admin position at a non-profit; will probably run into the spreadsheet /dyscalculia thing again. *sigh*
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 2:00 pm Sorry for the rejection and your continued struggle. I think the email could mean what you think; it could also mean they just went “holy crap, Margie’s retiring too, we need to think about what both these positions do.” I wouldn’t assume you’d be unwelcome to reapply if there was a new posting that seemed suitable. Good luck on Monday!
Former Museum Educator* July 6, 2018 at 2:05 pm “In order to more effectively meet the needs of the [CoolMuseum], we will be re-framing this position, to focus more on the position’s effort on science content development for exhibits. It sounds like their job description was quite vague on the requirements. They need someone who can write. They also need someone who has a background in pedagogy and/or museum education and/or educational communication.
Anonymosity* July 6, 2018 at 3:35 pm I’m really surprised they responded to me at all. I mean, February.
Argh!* July 6, 2018 at 3:32 pm It may just mean they had a change of focus during the period of the search. They may have gotten grant money for a more sciency project and decided to shift that position in the direction of the grant. It’s probably nothing personal at all.
Bex* July 6, 2018 at 3:39 pm I think this was a form letter that they sent to all the applicants, and has nothing to do with you personally. It sounds like they posted the job, but then realized that they actually needed the position to have a different focus, so they are closing that search and opening a new one with the new position description. If you’re still interested, you should definitely reapply! And now you know to emphasize any experience that you have developing content.
Epsilon Delta* July 6, 2018 at 4:35 pm It does sound like a form letter to me, but I would think that if they didn’t want you to re-apply they would have stopped at the rejection and not included the details about re-posting the position. Keep an eye out for it and if it still interests you I don’t think there would be anything wrong with applying!
Seriously?* July 6, 2018 at 6:04 pm I agree that it sounds like a form letter. When it is reposted, if you are still interested I don’t see why you can’t reapply unless it lists required skills/degrees you don’t have.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 6:32 am More likely they are telling the truth – they started the hiring process for a job, looked at the applications, then realised at some point after they looked at the applications that they didn’t really need someone to do that particular job and they actually need someone to do a different job. At least they were polite enough to tell you no instead of just not replying at all.
loslothluin* July 6, 2018 at 12:50 pm So, in my search for a new job to get out of the “hell hole,” I got a call from a recruiter stating that she had an attorney looking for a real estate paralegal. After speaking with the actual attorney, he made it sound more like he was testing the waters to see what was out there but did say that I had a skill set that rarely comes up (can read title reports from the abstractor, do title certificates/commitments/policies and do HUD-1 statements) and that he didn’t want to pass me up. He left it at “let’s revisit in 2 weeks and see” but to keep job hunting “just in case.” At least he’s being up front about it, I guess? The downside, though, is that he knows all of the attorneys I currently work so not sure if that’s a factor in his hesitation or not.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 6:35 am Sounds like standard headhunter spammer tactics – they lie to you to get your resume and then they approach potential clients saying “we have a ton of resumes of people looking for work, hire us we’ll definitely find someone for your open positions.” I hate those guys.
Try to Move? Wait?* July 6, 2018 at 12:52 pm How do other people decide whether to apply for jobs that will require a cross-country move? For background, I’m a fed with a preferred specialty (I qualify for other series, but strongly prefer this one) where there aren’t a ton of desirable openings…maybe 2 or 3 per year. Competition is generally stiff. I’ve been in my current position 2 yrs and I don’t like either the job or the location at all, though my coworkers are great and management is pretty good. I’m also going through a divorce and the house needs a lot of work I don’t have money for (new carpet, painting, some plumbing, window repairs, etc) before it could be put on the market for a reasonable price. My manager will be very Not Happy if he finds out I’m already applying elsewhere. But. I hate it here. There is a job opening that is something I: 1) like doing 2) for a manager I’ve heard nothing but wonderful things about 3) in a much preferable location. So. Knowing that selling my house will be a total nightmare and that even *applying* will upset my current manager (yes, he will 100% find out), but really wanting out of here, should I spend my entire weekend working on my application and try for the job? Or hold off until things here are a little more settled?
Former Retail Manager* July 6, 2018 at 2:05 pm Also a fed…is there any possibility that your current manager could torpedo the new job? Can’t tell if you’re staying with the same agency or not? Or could this come back to bite you in the future? In my relatively short stint with the Govt (8 years) I’ve been very surprised that, at my agency, the adage “be careful…you never know you might be working for in the future” is unbelievably true. If you are fairly certain that hurt feelings of your current manager are the only repercussion, I’d throw your hat in the ring for the new gig. Life is too short to stay in a job you hate in a place you hate. And besides, if you pass on this opportunity, who knows when another one might come along considering currently budgetary issues for so many agencies.
Try to Move? Wait?* July 6, 2018 at 2:56 pm This would be an agency switch. (There are four agencies that do similar things and it’s common for people to move back and forth between them.) He could certainly give me a bad review when they call for references (I’ve never, ever in nearly 20 years seen a federal hiring process where they didn’t talk to the current supervisor) but I truly have no idea what he would do…previous employees have told me he’s unpredictable about that. If I made it that far, I would also ask them to call my supervisor’s supervisor since I’ve done a few special projects for him that went very well. I don’t think there would be a lot of repercussions beyond sad faces, talks about being “disappointed”, and possibly grumbling about any leave requests. All the aspects of this job I found appealing have already been transferred to another division. I think I’m more freaked out about “could I get the house ready to list with all my savings gone to a divorce settlement & no one to help me”! Which is silly…if I take a loss, I take a loss but better than being miserable in my house/yard every day. You’re absolutely right about being aware that you’re likely to encounter anyone you work with again someplace else! I’ve been in federal service nearly 20 years and I can’t even count how many times I’ve had that happen. It does make it easier to find out information about a prospective new office though…you almost always can find a contact to ask for the inside scoop!
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 9:46 pm Hubs had a (federal) boss that would get all pouty if he found out hubs was applying elsewhere. Don’t let your boss dictate what you will do. If it’s a good change, go for it! We moved halfway across the country (I hated it… but we stayed 8 years).. and then came back east and love it. Opportunities are great in DC for feds and we live in a fab area. Do what you need to do for you. And don’t worry about the house. Sell it as is and get out from under it.
periwinkle* July 6, 2018 at 2:57 pm Apply. You cannot halt your career – and your life – because your current manager doesn’t want to replace you.
MissDisplaced* July 6, 2018 at 6:42 pm Well, I mean wanting to move to another part of the country is one of the best reasons to have for wanting to leave a job. If you know you like the new city (and I hope you’ve been there before you do decide to apply and have vetted that part of it) apply away and don’t feel guilty. And there never really is a “good” time if your life seems to be leading to that new city.
Matilda Jefferies* July 6, 2018 at 12:53 pm There’s no way to tell this story without sharing identifying details, but I just want to vent about my male coworker expecting me to do his emotional labour for him (I am female, of course!) Sorry you’re feeling left out, dude, but this is not my problem to solve. Talk to our manager to solve it, talk to your girlfriend to vent about it, whatever – just don’t take it out on me!
..Kat..* July 7, 2018 at 6:42 am Perhaps you could say, “why are you telling me this?” Or more bluntly, “I am not your psychiatrist. Talk to her about your issues.” Sorry, bad work week and I wish I could be this blunt with some coworkers.
Career Purgatory* July 6, 2018 at 12:55 pm My spouse is finally in his 4th year of medical school (he did the md/phd thing) and about to go through the match process. We definitely want to match out of state and are pretty sure we will. I was in grad school locally, too hiding out from a crappy economy, and powered through b/c technically he was supposed to match this year. He then needed another year of research that wasn’t approved until I was pretty much finished. I couldn’t stretch out my program any further and have a weird in between period but can’t afford not to work even though the job market isn’t great here. I got a job in my field in January that’s an ok hold-over job w/good benefits b/c we we still have bills, but I’m not sure how to address my situation in cover letters, especially since I want to change jobs so soon. I’d prefer to find a better paying WFH job I can take it with me when we move, but I’m not sure how to say “I’m almost definitely moving next summer but I won’t know where until March” in a way that won’t worry a hiring manager. Suggestions?
Fishsticks* July 6, 2018 at 4:27 pm Since you won’t be moving till next summer, wouldn’t it make more sense to wait to apply once you know where he is? I could be completely wrong here, but Match results come out early spring so that should give you some time to find a job. Also are you going to be going to the same place for the internship year and the resident program? I can’t remember how that worked. (I worked for 3 years assisting the resident coordinator in a medical department so I have some familiarly with the programs, albeit for the specific medical program)
I Love Thrawn* July 6, 2018 at 12:57 pm So my small office just downsized, letting go of our bookkeeper and using an online service. I’m the only one left standing here… feels odd, small amount of survivor’s guilt… but she did try to convince them to keep her and let me go (I do general admin work) due to her seniority. Multiple reasons that wasn’t a good idea, I’m just glad they decided to keep me instead. While’s she’s been here as a bookkeeper for ten years, and I’ve only been in this job for one year, I do have 13.5 years’ experience in the same job, elsewhere. I’m pretty decent at what I do, but the only thing she was really looking at was seniority. And it looks like I will be learning some bookkeeping stuff. Just kind of a strange situation for me.
MarsupialHop* July 6, 2018 at 3:07 pm The business made a decision that it felt was best for the company. You had no part in that decision.The business has its own priorities, and they acted on them. You can miss your coworker, you can regret you no longer work together, but you should not feel one ounce of guilt. Also, it is okay to be excited about new opportunities/gaining new skills. The request that you learn bookkeeping stuff is being made for the company’s benefit – but it is okay if is mutually beneficial to you as well.
SophieChotek* July 6, 2018 at 4:35 pm I agree. The business made a decision. It is a bonus you get to learn new things. But I think the “guilt” may be natural — but hope you can move on and enjoy the new aspects also.
Bea* July 8, 2018 at 12:05 pm I’m sorry that you have survivors guilt. What you really need to do is think about yourself, which is learn everything you can right now. But keep in mind this is a sinking ship. Going from in-house bookkeeping to outside sources is a huge sign of major financial crisis, especially in two person office. She was cut because she made more money than you.
Observer* July 8, 2018 at 1:25 pm You may be right that there are financial problems. But in a 2 person office, it can be pretty weird to have a full charge book-keeper. Which is also why it makes sense that she, not I Love Thrawn, was let go. If you can only do one thing in an office that only needs a little bit of that thing, then the person who can do 10 of the things that the place needs, is a much better candidate.
PersistentCat* July 6, 2018 at 1:00 pm Does anyone have advice I can take into consideration when helping my husband with his resume? He’s mid-30s, has been at the same (shift lead at a manufacturing plant with few deliverables) job since he was 20, and prior to his current job, he worked as a shift manager or assistant manager at a large fast food company & at a racing track. He doesn’t have a college degree or any certifications. The way his resume is right now, it takes up half a page. I could maybe expand it by calling out the company buyouts & listing them separately? I’m not sure… It’s finally at the point where he’s done, but I don’t know how to market him…
Foreign Octopus* July 6, 2018 at 1:31 pm I would say point him to the AAM resources and then step back. It sounds like you’re doing a lot of the heavy lifting for him and he should really be marketing himself. For the simple reason that he needs to be intimately familiar with what’s on his resume when he’s in interviews. He needs to be able to talk about the things on there and not be surprised by their presence.
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 9:48 pm Remember that the resume isn’t just a list of jobs, it needs to show what *he* did for them. What are his accomplishments? AAM has lots of help on this. Words matter!
NewToThis* July 6, 2018 at 1:00 pm I’m new to the workplace and I just have a quick question for the AAM community. If someone sends me an email and basically asks me to complete something whenever I get a chance that day, should I just send a quick response acknowledging that I got the email and will complete the task? I don’t want to come across as annoying and just cluttering their inbox especially when I’m going to have the task done within the next few hours however I also don’t want to seem standoffish and uncooperative. Thanks!
Wannabe Disney Princess* July 6, 2018 at 1:15 pm I’d just respond when you’re done. Unless you know it won’t be done by the end of the day. In that case, I’d send a quick email letting them know.
Matilda Jefferies* July 6, 2018 at 1:17 pm Depends on your industry, I imagine – probably something like a 24-hour news channel would have a much different expected response time than government, for example. I work in government (which moves slowly, most of the time!), and I generally only acknowledge a request if it’s going to be the next day or later. If it’s something I can get to the same day, I agree with you that I’d rather just do it, and assume the recipient would rather just get the one email saying it’s done.
Amber Rose* July 6, 2018 at 1:20 pm Unless I’m working on it immediately and it’ll only take me a short time to complete, I always reply so they know that I got their email and I’m working on it. Sometimes emails get lost after all. For example, I got two of those first thing yesterday morning. One was an order to process, and one was a bunch of labels I needed to make. I got the order done in about two hours, so I just emailed him when I was done. The other one I knew I wouldn’t be able to start until closer to the end of the day, so I just replied that I would get it to them in the afternoon. That said, don’t expect much of a reply back. And if you do get a “thanks” email, it is cluttery to reply with “you’re welcome.” Emails do not need to be back and forth conversations.
Middle School Teacher* July 6, 2018 at 1:51 pm Personally, I would appreciate an answer, even if it’s just “I’ll get to your thing as soon as I can!” I often email our IT guy (usually it’s something that can’t wait), and then he doesn’t answer me, and then he just shows up at the worst possible time. I’d love it if he answered me, even if it’s just “I’m on my way”.
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 1:54 pm I’m a big loop-closer in a loop-closing workplace, so I’d send an acknowledgment.
R* July 6, 2018 at 7:49 pm I usually just write back “will do”. That doesn’t take much time to read, but stops them from checking that I’ll do it.
LGC* July 7, 2018 at 8:30 am Is your response going to add any useful information, like an estimate of when you’ll be done? That’s been my usual guideline. For routine things, I’ll reply only with a deliverable. But if I expect to be delayed or I suspect there’s an actual deadline that they’re not telling me about, then I might follow up immediately. Or if it’s pretty important, like an invoice. But also, don’t worry too much, and know your office. Do people get a lot of email to begin with? I’d just reply with deliverables in that case. Do they expect you to be responsive? Then definitely acknowledge their email. As Matilda noted, the answer is extremely culture specific and
Detective Amy Santiago* July 6, 2018 at 1:03 pm I’ve been at my new job for two months and I am largely loving it, but this one minor thing has been irritating me and I’m wondering if it’s a reasonable thing to be irritated about. We have a specific form that we have to use for one of our work processes and this form has everyone in our department listed so you can check off your name and they know who it comes back to. This form still hasn’t been updated to reflect my name, which means I have to scratch off the name of the person I replaced and hand write mine. A couple of weeks ago, one of my colleagues sent me an electronic copy and I edited it to include my name and the name of another new person in our department (and also made it so we could fill it out electronically instead of handwriting it). The form ‘belongs’ to another department though so boss said that they would encourage that department head to adopt my version. The information on the form and the format are exactly the same (with the exception of the names of the people in the department). Still haven’t gotten a response on that and when I mentioned being annoyed that they haven’t even made an effort to update my name, the coworker that’s been training me seemed surprised that I was bothered by it. What say you, AAMers? Is it unreasonable that I’m bothered by work tools not reflecting my name after two months?
Matilda Jefferies* July 6, 2018 at 1:10 pm Nope, I’d be bothered about that too. (I might also be bothered by what sounds like a very inefficient work process, if you’re passing forms around like that all the time!) Any chance you could send a direct request to the person or department who owns the form? As in, “please remove Ethel’s name from the TPS form, and add mine instead.” I know you’re an AAM regular and therefore probably a pro at having direct conversations! But it also sounds like nobody has actually asked for your name to be added – having your boss “encourage” the other dept doesn’t sound very promising.
Detective Amy Santiago* July 6, 2018 at 1:37 pm Sadly, I do not have the standing to do that. The other department is in a completely different location and I’ve never met them and I’m probably two rungs lower than the person who ‘owns’ it. The process itself is fine and makes sense in context, I’m just trying to make it a bit more efficient. Plus it would be nice to feel like I’m actually part of the team.
Someone else* July 6, 2018 at 5:49 pm I disagree that you don’t have standing to do that. If the purpose of the document is to list all the people, and it’s currently wrong (particularly about you), it’s entirely reasonable to contact the person directly and say “please remove Ethel and replace it with me”. Unless when you spoke to your boss he specifically indicated you should not do that or other internal reasons making this a no-go, your being below the person who “owns” it and not having met them/worked with them shouldn’t be an automatic reason not to. You’re correcting an error on an internal form. If they don’t suck, they should want it fixed, especially since it sounds like it takes 10 seconds to do. …convincing them to adopt the electronic one might be more of a battle you’re not quite ready for, but correcting your name, and frankly the other new person’s, should not be A Thing you’d be judged for directly requesting. It’d be weird for them to balk at that. I mean, imagine the pushback “no, I prefer to keep person-who’s-been-gone-for-two-months on the form.” They’ll sound ridiculous.
Graciosa* July 6, 2018 at 1:19 pm Short answer, no, it’s not unreasonable to be bothered by this. Longer answer, it’s not unreasonable, but you need to be sensitive to other legitimate business issues if you find out there is something like that in play. For example, if they just printed 50,000 copies of the form right before the change and decided not to incur the expense of reprinting before the forms ran out, it would be bad planning on their part but an understandable business decision. If the department in charge of the form spend the last three months supporting a huge government audit that left no time for anyone to breathe and it’s still ongoing (or just ended and people haven’t caught up yet), then forgive them for not making the form a priority. A good approach in future might be to just ask the other department early on, when you’re still in the “Hi, I’m Amy” stage, and you can be charming and meet people and provide your name, and let them know how much you’re looking forward to seeing your name on the form at NewCo. You can’t do it as easily now that your boss is involved (please don’t appear to step over her if she’s trying to fix it), but a later version of that conversation could focus more on how you were hoping it would be updated soon to help out all the people who kept having to update it manually when sending you anything. If you have an opportunity to discuss it in future (without stepping over your boss), I would suggest appearing to be more concerned about the trouble it’s causing for other people than about feeling slighted (although yes, I totally get it). Best wishes –
Detective Amy Santiago* July 6, 2018 at 1:40 pm I wish I could ask directly, but that is not an option. I actually haven’t met other department. Our processes are parallel, not overlapping, and they are in a completely different location.
BRR* July 6, 2018 at 2:08 pm It is completely reasonable for you to be bothered by it (I would be) but I’m not surprised it hasn’t been updated. I’ve seen many similar things where employee’s names/titles don’t get updated.
inthepocketofherraincoat* July 7, 2018 at 6:47 am I understand where you’re coming from on this. I’ve been in my present position for two years, and the office handbook (which I’m not authorised to edit even though I’m the admin?) and certain online training programs that new starters have to do don’t have my name in them. In fact, the online programs still have the name of the very first person in this role – and that was 3 people and 6 years ago. I’ve given up being bothered, as it just isn’t going to change, no matter how much I ask. I hope you have better luck!
Formerly A Homebody?* July 6, 2018 at 1:05 pm My husband got the offer he was hoping for this morning! I’m really excited for him and moving to a fully remote job is something we’ve talked about and I’ve been on board with for a couple years now. I’m not worried about his ability to work from home but I am worried about my ability to share the house. Right now I don’t have to leave the house daily and on days I do have reason to leave the house, I have to drive him to work and pick him up in order to have the car. I’m used to it being just me and the pets during the day, stuck at home without a car. So when he comes home early to work from downstairs, for some reason, it kinda cramps my style. I don’t even know for sure what it is I don’t like about it, I just feel like I can’t do what I want with him working here. We’re already planning to move my sewing room upstairs which will probably help a lot, but does anyone have other suggestions for how to adjust to and be supportive of a spouse working from home?
blink14* July 6, 2018 at 1:31 pm My mom worked from home for about 20 years, and used the back half of her and my stepdad’s bedroom as an office (it’s a large room). She had been working full time from home for about a year when my brother was born, and my parents hired a full time nanny for him (I was already in school). The deal with that when the bedroom door was closed, she was at work, regardless of who was home. She would break for 1-2 hours midday for lunch and to run errands, and then would be back to work until late afternoon. My brother’s nanny would watch me if I was home from school for some reason, my stepdad would do chores or other things if he happened to be home during the day. Otherwise, unless there was an emergency, we all were trained to think she was out at work, and not really there. She kept a regular work schedule, and outside of the occasional phone call at night, when her work day was done, it was done. Obviously there’s going to be some adjustment for both of you, but if your husband keeps to a schedule from the start, and can have a private, separate space to work, that should solve a lot of potential problems. Since you’ll have use of the car, use the time during the day to do things you need a car for now – running errands, hobbies, etc. Maybe make a plan to visit a coffee shop or a library a few times a week to make sure you get your own alone time, so you don’t feel suffocated by the change. If you start feeling like you aren’t getting the alone time you need (which it sounds like this is why him working from home now bothers you), try coming up with an agreement where you’ll have the house to yourself for X amount of time per week, maybe a weekend afternoon, or an evening while he’s out enjoying his own personal interests, meeting up with friends, etc.
Falling Diphthong* July 6, 2018 at 1:32 pm Totally normal feeling, and it’s really good that you seem to be communicating well about work needs (talking about his going remote, talking about moving your private space to another floor). Which means it’s probably okay to have a conversation about how you might like to sometimes have the house to yourself, just because it’s nice to be the only human in a space that you have to think about. And he might too! Is working from a coffee shop for a few hours an option for either of you? Having separate home offices should really help. What I find is that if I’m working in the dining room that’s fine when I’m alone, and when my teen is home because he’s off doing his own stuff, but my husband doesn’t register a difference between “sitting in dining room messing about on computer, can interrupt” and “sitting in dining room concentrating hard, do not interrupt if not urgent.” But sitting out of the regular living space would solve that.
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 9:40 pm You really need to carve out a space that is his work space an leave him to it. Sometimes (rarely) hubby and I work from home at the same time and it can be difficult because we only have one office. Plus, if you can be out of the house some that might help. A part time job? Volunteer work? The gym?
Anon here again* July 6, 2018 at 1:17 pm I don’t like my coworkers. They can be nice when they needs something, but they only care about themselves. The idea of teamwork is non-existent. I think the problem stems from higher up, and the company is toxic and dysfunctional. They are only nice to their friends and if you’re not their friend, they don’t care about you. They run hot and cold. I don’t like it. I’ve worked in places where we helped each other out and genuinely cared for one another. This job seems like they will stab you in the back at any give time. I don’t like it. Does anyone have a job like this?
NaoNao* July 6, 2018 at 6:47 pm What is your objective here? Check out the archives. Dozens, if not hundreds of people have jobs like this. Without specifics it seems really weird, petty, and self-pitying to me.
Overwhelmed and disconnected* July 6, 2018 at 1:22 pm I am a full-time intern, and my supervisor just left the company last week. So while we are waiting for the next person to come in and fill the position, I (along with another intern) are doing my supervisor’s duties temporarily…. but who knows when the next person will come in… Honestly, it’s overwhelming and driving me insane. I’ve been applying to a bunch of jobs, but my industry is just so small that there aren’t many positions available. Eeeekkkkk.
Reba* July 6, 2018 at 4:47 pm That definitely sounds overwhelming! Remember that as an intern there are limits to what you can reasonably be responsible for–you can’t do it to the level your supervisor would have done (and honestly to me it seems dubious that they are having you do it, but of course I have no idea what it entails). I hope that this is good resume-building experience for you, at the least! You’ll be able to talk about how you took on more work and kept the team moving forward during a transitional period. Good luck!
Middle School Teacher* July 6, 2018 at 11:24 pm At least you’re getting some experience? (It sounds trite but if you manage this properly, it will look amazing on your resume.)
Tara R.* July 6, 2018 at 1:24 pm My very first job interview at age 15 was for a somewhat prestigious internship-like position, and was a panel interview with 4 people. I was thinking back on it the other day, and remembered that I sat outside the interview building for half an hour before the interview, reading (I had lied to my mom about the interview time owing to her chronic lateness but she only dropped me off 5 minutes after the time I told her, which was quite the achievement for her!) Normal enough, I guess, but I didn’t have a purse or anything with me and I just carried my book into the interview with me. This is still probably something that people who are interviewing 15 year olds wouldn’t really blink at, right? Like it’s kind of weird to walk into an interview with a book tucked under your arm, but… 15 year olds. Except that I distinctly remember the book was Damned, by Chuck Palahniuk. The cover is a flaming picture of the devil’s face. The actual plot of the book is a girl wandering around hell thinking that she died of a marijuana overdose– I at least had the good sense to not give quite that much detail when they inquired as to what I was reading. In retrospect, I’m super shocked that I ended up landing that position. Anyone else remember doing something in an interview that you didn’t realize was pretty weird until many, many years later?
A Username For This Site* July 7, 2018 at 12:32 pm My high school assigned Fight Club by Chuck Palahniuk for 10th-11th grade, so it’s entirely possible that the interviewers thought it was your homework.
Grandma Mazur* July 7, 2018 at 1:16 pm I once got an interview for a student support advisor position at a university in my home town , immediately after finishing my BA and MA, and had never had a formal job before. In the bit at the end where the candidate can ask questions to the panel, i asked why they’d shortlisted me when I didn’t have the “essential” 2 years’ experience. Now I realise how tacky that was…
Teapots R Us* July 6, 2018 at 1:30 pm Should I continue this work/ community relationship? So let’s say I am renowned teapot reviewer. Let’s say I am an academic historian whose focus continues to be on contemporary commercial teapots. Let’s say teapot makers from all over the world send me sample teapots for review. Let’s say I am on tenure track and community service is part of the desirable parts of my dossier for promotion. For the past 4 years, I have donated hundreds of teapots to a community college that supports the work of students in teapot manufacture and design. This educational institution serves a community of underserved, lacks funds, and they have been very grateful for the donations and our continued relationships. Win/win as this was a beneficial relationship for both parties. The director that I had the relationship with has left. I offered to continue the donations with the new director. The new director wishes to continue to receive donations from me but has explicitly stated that they will not and do not want direct contact with me or representatives of my institution. The director who had left has offered to be the “go-between.” Pick up the donations and deliver them to a site that the new director can meet him at. The community college far away located in a rural area of our state. As much as I appreciate the offer, there are many community group closer to me who are in need, who would appreciate these donations, and I would get the direct benefit of growing business/community relationships. I feel kind of icky (not sure of the right word) agreeing to this arrangement. And don’t know why. It feels weirdly unprofessional. So… A. Should I take him up on his offer to be the go-between B. Say thanks but we will be selecting a new recipient C. Something that I hadn’t thought of
Seriously?* July 6, 2018 at 1:44 pm B sounds like a good option. Needing a go between to give a donation would be very off putting. They obviously do not really want the donations or they would not be putting so many conditions on it. If you know of other organizations that would be happy to receive the donations, it sounds like everyone wins.
blink14* July 6, 2018 at 1:51 pm That’s bizarre! The new director gave no reason for wanting no direct contact? If there is someone at your institution who can reach out and talk to this person, I would start there. Its obviously a benefit to your own institution to have their name related to your donations. If that doesn’t work, I would pull the offer and see if you get a better response. Ultimately, I wouldn’t want to be donating items and not even be allowed to drop them off, it seems kind of shady and implies that maybe the items won’t make it to their final destination.
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 1:52 pm Definitely no A. The whole backdoor-gift thing is very discomfiting. I’m in a vaguely analogous situation, and I’d never agree to that. If you think of a cool C, that’s fine, but if you have a plan B ready to go, that’s your baby. But I’m madly curious as to why the director is all “please give us all your stuff but we have to pretend it came from somewhere else.” Any clue?
redbug34* July 6, 2018 at 2:15 pm As someone who deals regularly with donations (books, specifically) – it is very possible the institution does not want these donations, and with new leadership is retooling their donation policy. Donations, while they can be appreciated, are often over-appraised by the donor, do not meet the collection’s goals, and the actual reality of their use in the institution is minimal. Many of the good-will donations we receive end up being an enormous burden to our staff and take time document, appraise, and review, only to find they are not of use to us, and we have to sell/re-donate/or even pay people to remove them. Heads of departments can often seem welcoming and happy to take these gifts with the goal of fostering good relations – and that is their job – but I would venture to really ask any new place you may donate to if these items are truly beneficial, if they actually support the students, and if the institution has a real need or desire for them. Some places do, and we often redirect donors to places that welcome and need these items! Just be aware, donations are not always as helpful as they may seem.
Observer* July 8, 2018 at 1:34 pm This is not relevant to the question, though. If the new director believes that these donations do not match the needs of the institution, that’s fine. Those are the kinds of decisions he should be making. But, if that’s what he thinks, he needs to tactfully explain that the institution no longer finds these donations useful.
Myrin* July 6, 2018 at 2:44 pm The director who had left has offered to be the “go-between.” Pick up the donations and deliver them to a site that the new director can meet him at. That sounds amusingly like some kind of ransom exchange.
Teapots Are Us* July 6, 2018 at 3:12 pm Good points everyone. More Information. Old Director says that New Director has had very negative relationships with my present institution, so much so that New Director will not physically be on my campus or interact with their representative. The Old Director knows the whole story and states that the situation is like PTSD and that the Old Director understands and this is non-negotiable. Old Director also said that New Director’s reaction was reasonable considering the circumstances and I take them at their word. Redbug34- I do understand the relationship gift acceptance. I am in that situation now with a donation. The horror. This is not the case, here. Old Director has made this offer because the donation pays off in huge benefits for the institution including local and national recognition and a huge contribution community-wide not just for the students. Old Director has professional stake in the continuation of the Teapot Donation Program. Myrin, maybe that is the icky feeling. AND part of this is selfish. I do this to build the relationships so that I can call on the receivers for support of my program and evidence of community engagement. If New Director had communicated that they would want to continue the donations and that Old Director had volunteered to pick up and deliver, I wouldn’t have thought twice. Its the non-engagement with me that is troubling.
loslothluin* July 6, 2018 at 4:24 pm B. If New Director can’t be adult enough to accept donations in person, someone else should get the benefit. Basically, you’re good enough to get the goods from but not good enough to be appreciative enough in person. Talk about being treated like a 2 bit hooker.
SophieChotek* July 6, 2018 at 4:55 pm I am sorry, and the PTSD/negative past experience definitely puts a different spin on things, but I think I would still go with B.
Miss Pantalones en Fuego* July 6, 2018 at 5:22 pm Yeah, that does change things a bit. But if the New Director is refusing to acknowledge the source of these donations because of their experience, then I can’t see what the benefit is for you or your institution.
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 5:08 pm I really wouldn’t mess with this. I understand Old Director’s desire to continue the donation stream, but it’s really not tenable to do this with a new director who’s staunchly not on board. We have a big donation stream and I could absolutely see an Old Director here doing the same thing, but she needs to let it go. You don’t have to close the door forever, just note that the best thing for both institutions is a mutually beneficial arrangement and that right now another place is a better fit.
JessicaTate* July 6, 2018 at 7:29 pm Option B. For sure. New Director needs to own the consequences of his/her refusal to professionally interact with your institution, which is, not getting the donations. If it’s a legitimate reason, as Old Director stated, then a backdoor solution isn’t actually honoring the decision of ND. And your response is NOT selfish. In a professional realm, particularly academia, being able to cite / CV / reference community engagement related to your work and expertise in the community is A Thing. A Big Thing. This is not donating old clothes to Goodwill. You said there are other groups that would benefit from and welcome the donations, so I think you re-focus your efforts on those that are comfortable working with you and your current institution. Don’t feel guilty. Everyone is making their choices appropriately, clearly, and on the up-and-up.
Teapots R Us* July 7, 2018 at 12:38 am Wow. Seriously. A shout out to Alison. This is why AAM Friday open thread is so valuable. I have been perseverating about this issue for a few weeks. I was concerned with my professional relationship with the Old Director. Reading this “And your response is NOT selfish. In a professional realm, particularly academia, being able to cite / CV / reference community engagement related to your work and expertise in the community is A Thing. A Big Thing.” was so important because as an academic in a super competitive environment, I am very isolated and don’t have a supervisor or mentor that I feel comfortable talking about these kinds of things. “You don’t have to close the door forever, just note that the best thing for both institutions is a mutually beneficial arrangement and that right now another place is a better fit.” I will contact Old Director and say that I had given this arrangement some thought and it wouldn’t really work for me. I will be giving the donations to another community group who had requested to be considered for donations in the future. If New Director would like to contact me directly, we can discuss future donations.
pcake* July 8, 2018 at 9:09 pm Good decision, IMO. You can be generous to someone who isn’t going to treat you as a pariah for doing them a favor when other deserving institutions are also deserving of the same favor. You could look at it this way – that organization has had the benefit of your donations for quite some time, and it’s time that another organization had the same benefit.
Observer* July 8, 2018 at 1:38 pm I disagree with Old Director. What New Director wants is NOT reasonable. I understand if New Director wants nothing to do with your institution and won’t even come on site. But you cannot refuse to meet with the actual donor of stuff that benefits your organization – not just in person, but in the person of any of your staff. “I’ve got PTSD, so I’m going to appoint my Assistant Director to deal with you” is one thing (and still helps you with relationship building.) “I’ve got PTSD, so I’m going to take advantage of your generosity while treating you like a shameful secret.” Is NOT ok.
Loopy* July 6, 2018 at 1:38 pm Sitting at the end of week two of New Job feeling awful. Generally, how forgiving are folks to clumsy new staff members who may make some minor blunders and mistakes in the first few weeks if they AREN’T new to the work force. My title is a level III so I’m feeling pretty hard on myself right now… For context, I’m not a doctor or anything where people get hurt or are impacted by my mistakes, not do they have a monetary cost, but I am expected to be extremely detail oriented and NOT make mistakes (minimal is the key, if any).
AvonLady Barksdale* July 6, 2018 at 2:11 pm I’m 18 months in, I have well over a decade of experience, and I STILL make mistakes. While I beat myself up over this, I remember that this does not mean I suck. AND NEITHER DO YOU. Seriously. You are still figuring out where to find the coffee! A co-worker and I were discussing something today and I said, “Man, this week has been rough. I feel like I should know this stuff already.” His response? “We’re all feeling it right now. This is what happens when things ramp up after a slow period.” He is not known for being the fuzziest guy. He made me feel immensely better. In short: you’re doing fine. Talk to us again in a year. :)
Loopy* July 6, 2018 at 2:46 pm Thanks so much. I definitely feeling the pressure of going up a grade. I switched careers just shy of three years ago so to be at this level is still feeling a bit daunting.
RickTq* July 6, 2018 at 2:21 pm Are you new to the details of this job and responsibilities? Are you making new mistakes (or repeating the same ones)? Every job has a learning curve and every company has their own way of doing business. In two weeks you are just getting the lay of the land and who is who. If your error rate is going down and you aren’t making the same error over and over then you should be fine, just keep being diligent about your work. My business has the same quality goal (detail oriented, minimal errors) and an occasional misstep doesn’t get anyone the side-eye. I’m working with a new peer who came to us from a major vendor (so technically very sharp) but he doesn’t know the minutia of our systems or process. Remember you were hired for a reason, your company wants you and your skills.
Beancounter Eric* July 6, 2018 at 4:21 pm You are on week two…I don’t care how much experience you have – first couple of months, you are still learning the local environment and process. If your mistakes are, pardon me, dumb-ass screwups the result of carelessness, then feel free to kick yourself in the backside. If, however, they are “learning the new job” mistakes, then don’t beat yourself up too much – think of them as a learning opportunity. And good luck with the new job!!
LQ* July 6, 2018 at 5:01 pm My boss has bemoaned that the job title level I’m in (IV) is supposed to be that of “walking on water without getting your feet wet” I’m annoyed at that because no one at this level or above is actually HELD to that obscenely high standard. It’s just talked about, so the best of us feel shitty we aren’t good enough and the worst of us feel fine because it’s not like they are being demoted or fired for not performing. So…yeah. I get it.
Hoatsin* July 6, 2018 at 1:39 pm Curious if anyone on here has made a career switch through a coding bootcamp? I’m considering doing one for Front End Design and would love the opinion of someone who has been through such a program.
Daughter of Ada and Grace* July 6, 2018 at 2:41 pm I haven’t attended one, but my company is looking at hiring an entry level developer from a local bootcamp (full-stack, rather than front end) for an open position. Thus far, there are some strong candidates from said bootcamp. Some things I’d want to know before picking a bootcamp: 1) Is it full-time or part-time? If it’s full time, how will you cover your expenses during bootcamp? 2) What are the graduation and job-placement rates? I’d worry if either of these are too low (bootcamp isn’t producing hireable graduates, or they’re training for a job market that isn’t there), or 100% (bootcamp doesn’t have high enough standards) 2a) How are those rates reported? The one local to my office reports through The Council on Integrity Results in Reporting (CIRR). There may be other 3rd party organizations that do this reporting as well. 3) What kind of career services does the bootcamp offer? Will they help with resume updates, technical interview advice, connections to companies, or will they expect you to get a job entirely on your own after graduation.
Role/Scope Creep!* July 6, 2018 at 1:44 pm I have been at my new job for approximately 6 months. Prior to working this job, I worked in survey research and data analysis specifically focused on program evaluation. My organization has been developing an organization improvement plan with a consultant, which includes an employee satisfaction survey and focus groups based on the feedback. Because of my past experience, I was recently asked if i would be comfortable taking on the survey data analysis portion of plan, which would save them the extra expense of using whomever the consultant usually contracts with. Thinking this would a. be a fairly easy way to show my buy-in as a new employee and b. really be minimal work based on my experience, I said yes and met with the consultant. Since that initial meeting, I have been doing the majority of the survey development, created a timeline for deliverables, and been doing the majority of the communication coordination between consultant and management team re: the survey. I also understand from the consultant that they expect that I will facilitate survey dissemination/collection and data processing in addition to any analysis, PLUS co-authoring the resulting reports! Whats more, the management team is now directing all survey-related feedback to me without including the consultant. I am a junior employee here- this communication I’m having is with several layers of hierarchy above me. There are really two things that are making me uncomfortable about the arrangement: 1. the “scope creep” of the assignment which puts me in an awkward position, and 2. the fact that they are paying a consultant for work that is being completed almost completely in house! What are my options as far as communicating these concerns?
BRR* July 6, 2018 at 2:13 pm Can you go to your manager or whoever asked you to do this and clarify expectations for the project? It’s possible they aren’t on the same page as the consultant. Or could you say you are able to do the original plan of X but you don’t have the capacity to add Y and Z?
AConsultant* July 6, 2018 at 7:42 pm Agree, talk to your boss or whoever is in charge of this project to clarify what your company has negotiated with the consultant re: his/her SOW. One of two very different things (at least) could be happening here – and communication would help either situation. As you are interpreting, they only negotiated for you to help consultant with analysis, as you were told, and now he/she is scoffing off work onto you and skimming. (This is possible, but I hope rare? I would NEVER. If this is happening, the point-person who negotiates w/ him/her should be made aware of this and intervene.) But option 2 is what I’ve encountered. A client realizes that it can pay the consultant way less if it brings work in-house (which you noted was a motivation re: analysis). Once they figure this out, they dramatically cut down the consultant’s contract, saying that they have someone on-staff who can do X, Y, and Z. But they don’t necessarily communicate with the Staff Person how much they’ve promised. (They tell you, “a little help with analysis,” but they actually slashed the data collection and reporting budget too, in “yadda, yadda, yadda” fashion.)
AnonJ* July 8, 2018 at 5:28 pm This indeed puts you in a very awkward position. Nobody likes the new, junior, person reporting out on the ‘issues’ the organization faces with their employees. It’s one thing for you to take on what was initially suggested – just to analyze the data from a survey the consultant developed, give her the data, and let her interpret the results. That seems reasonable. What you’re now being tasked with is not at all reasonable for a new employee in a junior role and could significantly impact your standing with your colleagues if you put your name on a report they disagree with. I would simply tell your manager that you are happy to help with the data analysis piece but feel as though any deeper involvement in the project would undermine both your own position with your colleagues and that of the company and consultant, who entered this arrangement because they saw a need for independent and outside assistance…which you are not capable of providing in your position. If they think your program evaluation experience makes you the right person to do this, remind them that program evaluation is typically done by an outside organization/person who is not involved in delivering the program so as not to taint the evaluation results. If they’re relying so much on your evaluation experience, you should feel free to speak to your knowledge and experience and tell them this is not a good idea for the organization and would be against professional norms.. They’re trying to spend a nickel and save a dime and that doesn’t work in this case. For anyone. especially you.
Higher&Higher* July 6, 2018 at 1:45 pm My raise came through today! Happy Friday, everyone! Fighting for this raise was such a long road, but I’m glad I did it. I gained some necessary self-advocacy skills and the importance of knowing your worth and asking for it. Also the importance of salary sharing. SHARE YOU SALARIES. Especially women, know what your male coworkers make. Tell everyone. Now gonna blow this dough on some top-shelf booze to celebrate.
BRR* July 6, 2018 at 2:15 pm The experience of asking for a raise was so good for me as well. I about had a heart attack but I think next time will be a lot easier. Much less stress overall asking for the raise than the stress of being undervalued.
Onyx* July 6, 2018 at 1:47 pm Horribly bored at work lately, I seem to have lost my mojo and I’m not sure how to get it back. Not sure if this is a sign I should start looking for something new or just a temporary lull in the usual craziness. My team and my manager are great, but the upper management is a mess of infighting and power struggles which spill into my projects. I’m finding it tough to move forward and finish projects since they bottleneck my efforts with their fights. I’ve been here 2 years and made a number of positive changes, but it kind of feels like I’ve taken things as far as I can in this role. :/
MarsupialHop* July 6, 2018 at 3:17 pm Feeling wan and listless at my job can be countered by (1) stretch assignments; (2) exercise – I take 5 minute breaks throughout the day and walk. 10,000 steps a day goal; (3) spurts of networking – go to lunch with coworkers whom I occasionally work with, ask questions about their department goals, about their jobs, about the work we do together, etc. (4) make my home life more interesting – if work is hard, try to make home easy. if work is boring, make home exciting. if work is draining, take more naps at home.
Ladyphoenix* July 9, 2018 at 9:19 am I just had that feeling too before I went on vacation. When I came back, I felt super fueled up and was able to get all my work finished without a problem. Maybe you need to put your vacay time in to relax and recharge?
No More Small Talk* July 6, 2018 at 1:48 pm I need advice on how to stop sexist remarks from a coworker. They started when he found out we both like movies in a well-known franchise; he said this interest would make me more attractive to potential boyfriends (!). We do not have the type of relationship where that’s a welcome thing to say. I was so taken aback I couldn’t react in the moment. Since then, every time we talk about a work matter, he will bring up these movies and whether I’ve seen the latest one. Today I said I was mostly interested in one character so I wouldn’t be seeing movies that don’t feature him, and my co-worker asked if it was because I thought the character was hot. I said no because I again couldn’t seem to find the words in the moment to say “this is inappropriate for work.” He has also started calling me “my dear,” as in, when we are ending a call, he will day, “All right, my dear, I’ll take a look at that report and send it back with comments.” This has happened three or four times. I think if I asked him to, he would stop, but I’m not sure how to say it. “Please keep this related to work amd stop calling me ‘my dear’”? We work remotely so most of our interactions are via phone or email, if that helps.
beanie beans* July 6, 2018 at 2:02 pm “Hey Joe, I’d really rather not be called ‘my dear.’ Just Jane is fine.” “Hey Joe, I like chatting with you about movies, but you’re creeping me out now.” “Hey Joe, I like chatting with you about movies, but lately I feel like you’re more interested in how it relates to my sex life, which is making me uncomfortable. Could you leave out the comments about boyfriends and who I think is hot?” I suck at finding the right words in the moment also, but I’ve had good success pulling people aside later and mentioning that something they said bothered me. *Most of the time* they are appreciative that I said something and stopped.
MarsupialHop* July 6, 2018 at 3:20 pm Say what you are thinking, “We do not have the type of relationship where that’s a welcome thing to say.” is fine. So is “this is inappropriate for work.” For ‘my dear’ – make that correction when he does it, same as you would if he called you by the wrong name — “actually I prefer (your name), not my dear”
Say What, Now?* July 6, 2018 at 3:52 pm Not to make assumptions, but if you’re talking about something like the Marvel franchise you could point out the gross of those movies and say (with a more humor-based tone) “with that kind of box office I imagine it’s not terribly uncommon for women to enjoy these movies. Or do you think that X billion dollars are being made off the male population alone?” Of course, even if you’re jovial when you say it he might still take offense.
No More Small Talk* July 6, 2018 at 7:26 pm Thanks for the suggestions. I think I’m going to practice so it’s easier to say something.
When is it okay to ask for a raise?* July 6, 2018 at 1:50 pm I took this job 9 months ago. I’m rather underpaid, but I really needed health insurance at the time so I was fine with it. At this point though, I’m realizing that I lowballed myself by much more than I had thought, 10-20k. I have taken on lots of things that my predecessor had not done, so I think I can use that in my pitch, but it still feels too early. Mostly so that I can calm down and stop thinking about this until it is reasonable, can people tell me a what point it would be okay to ask?
Echo* July 6, 2018 at 2:09 pm Standard is a year or so in, unless your employer has a formal merit review process and then you need to go along with that process. Unfortunately, unless you are asking for a promotion, $10-20k is unlikely to happen, but I do think you should bring up all of the extra responsibilities you have taken on.
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 1:57 pm I’m guessing pasted in the wrong window. I’ve come pretty close to that myself.
Fred’s boss* July 6, 2018 at 1:58 pm What do you do when you have a direct report who appears to need an accommodation, but refuses it? I have an elderly direct report, Fred, who uses oxygen and walks very slowly, with a cane. My team’s part of the office is in a second-floor loft area of our building, and the only access is by climbing stairs – there is no elevator. Fred is able to navigate the stairs slowly, but he is shaky and I am very concerned that he is going to fall. If we have an evacuation (and we do have them for tornado threats several times a year) Fred is unable to get downstairs quickly enough to be safe without help. We had an on-site EMT who has expressed in writing to me, that she has concerns for his safety in general and particularly in evacuations. The only accommodation Fred thinks he needs is to either plan meetings that he must attend using upstairs conference rooms only, so he doesn’t need to navigate the stairs more than once a day, or being exempted from meetings that can’t take place upstairs. We have offered to move Fred downstairs, and he adamantly refuses to go – he said he would feel isolated and like he wasn’t part of the team down there. I can’t move the entire team downstairs – the office space down there is not large enough. Five people from the team have been moved downstairs recently, for totally different reasons, and I offered again to help Fred move downstairs, and he said he didn’t want to. (The people who moved aren’t people he works with closely. I don’t think it would matter to him unless the majority of our larger team was down there.) HR thinks he needs to move, too, but my grandboss has insisted that it needs to be Fred’s choice. He is never going to voluntarily choose to go, I’m certain. Is there some other step I should be taking?
RickTq* July 6, 2018 at 2:10 pm My take is he needs to be moved downstairs as soon as it can be scheduled, and he doesn’t have a choice in the matter. The letter from your own EMT should be enough for GrandBoss, he needs to be on the first floor (and exempt from 2nd floor meetings) for his own safety and to protect your company. IANAL but I can see a liability issue if Fred is injured while he is evacuated from the 2nd floor during an emergency.
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 2:31 pm I think if grandboss is insisting that it be Fred’s choice, you go with that. Whatever protocol you’d have for a wheelchair user in evacuation is what you’ll do with Fred.
Fred’s boss* July 6, 2018 at 6:59 pm My boss directed me to tell Fred he was required to move, before his boss stepped in. HR was also of the mind that we were beyond the point where Fred could choose not to move, although they walked that back a little after my grandboss spoke up. Grandboss is a little bit of a loose cannon and it’s not unusual for him to be at odds with this many reasonable people. I don’t know if we have a protocol for getting a wheelchair user down the stairs. I’ll ask our EMT.
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 11:13 pm I would imagine you wouldn’t have a protocol—as there’s no elevator, a regular wheelchair user wouldn’t be able to get upstairs in the first place. Is there a lawyer your company could consult? I agree in principle will self-advocacy and having the decision be Fred’s, but there are likely liability issues in play here.
..Kat..* July 7, 2018 at 7:15 am There is a thing in EMS called a “stair chair.” This is used to move a person down stairs who cannot navigate stairs easily (or at all). If Fred is going to stay upstairs, I recommend your company get one. And that your EMT practices/is comfortable using it (it is not intuitive).
AnotherAlison* July 6, 2018 at 2:33 pm I think he lost his argument when 5 others from your team were moved. It’s kind of a tough situation no matter what. Will all your meetings need to be on the 1st floor if he goes there? I would also expect all the coworkers he works closely with will be harder to communicate with, since he could presumably go to their desks as long as you were all on the same floor.
Fred’s boss* July 6, 2018 at 7:04 pm I can schedule our one-on-ones and any team meetings downstairs pretty easily. There’s a regular all-staff meeting that he particularly doesn’t want to miss, that has to be upstairs because there isn’t a room big enough elsewhere – if Fred were downstairs, we’d make it a conference call and let him call in instead. That’s already been proposed to him and he doesn’t like it.
Observer* July 8, 2018 at 1:47 pm Also, if this is ONE meeting that doesn’t happen too often, you could give him the option to call in or come up. But at least you’ve got the basic safety issue taken care of.
LGC* July 6, 2018 at 2:34 pm This is awkward. I don’t believe you can force Fred to move because of his perceived mobility issues. (He’s able to use stairs, just not very well.) But…you might have a bit of an opening, as it sounds like his concern is isolation. Could you move at least part of his team downstairs with him? Or would that be too difficult? On that note, my organization mostly works on the second floor, and even the first floor of our building is above street level. We have a couple of wheelchair users and several other employees that have varying degrees of mobility impairment, and what we normally do is have a manager stay with them if they can’t do stairs that well. Granted, we’re not in a tornado prone area, and we have formal staircases for fire escapes. In the interim, would it be possible to designate someone to help him in emergency situations?
Fred’s boss* July 6, 2018 at 7:18 pm I think his worry being treated differently because of his mobility issues as much as isolation. It’s possible to move another person or two downstairs, yes, but we have a staff of around 60 upstairs, and that’s the broader group he says he hates to think of being separated from. The downstairs offices host 5 of our people and 8-10 people doing unrelated office jobs. There isn’t a lot of office space down there, it’s more utilitarian. If I had a reason to move him that had nothing to do with his mobility issues, I think that would be okay. I talked to him a few weeks ago about having him work from another building occasionally so he can have more face time with a team there that he collaborates with, and he was okay with that (he did ask me to confirm what the accessibility of the building was like, and he was happy to hear that his cohorts are on the ground floor and there’s an elevator in the building if he needs to go to a different floor for some reason.) I just can’t move him to that building full time.
Observer* July 8, 2018 at 1:50 pm In the interim, would it be possible to designate someone to help him in emergency situations? That’s really not a viable situation. For one thing that would mean that that person could never be out when Fred is in. Worse – if the person you designate is not someone whose job normally relates to safety you really have no way to be confident that that person will actually do what they are supposed to do – and that assumes that they are actually capable of doing so in the first place. You really can’t impose this kind of safety job on someone whose role is not really safety related.
ShortAnswersarethebestanswerslonganswersareokaytoo* July 6, 2018 at 3:24 pm Is there enough room downstairs for you to move there, or at least have a 2nd workstation to work from? it sounds like Fred is afraid of being moved into storage (like that guy in Office Space) where he will be out of sight and out of mind. If the boss works from both areas, then Fred doesn’t lose visibility. Keep in mind that if you do move Fred downstairs, then all meetings will need to be downstairs as well.
Fred’s boss* July 6, 2018 at 7:22 pm I already camp out downstairs for a few hours a week, although I’m not sure Fred is aware of that. There’s no budget for a second workstation for me, but there’s a couple of club chairs and a coffee table next to the desk area that I use. Booking small meetings (10 people or fewer) down there is not an issue.
Fred’s boss* July 6, 2018 at 7:25 pm I have been told several times that we’ve looked into a stair lift and an elevator before, and neither was possible, although I don’t know specifically why. I can ask, but I do think it’s really not possible based on the way it was said.
Observer* July 8, 2018 at 1:45 pm I understand where your Grandboss is coming from and I do appreciate it. But, they are wrong. You’ve been out on notice by the EMT that Fred is not safe. You can’t ignore that. Move him downstairs and make exempt him from second floor meetings.
Another Lauren* July 6, 2018 at 2:03 pm This may be an AAM first: I got a lovely email rejection from a job I never applied for! A few months ago I was approached by a recruiter for a position that I absolutely didn’t want, nor was I qualified for. I wrote back with a polite thanks-but-no-thanks email, and wished them luck in their search. And yesterday, I got a delightful form letter stating that while my qualifications were impressive and they so enjoyed talking with me, they had made the decision to hire someone else, and they hope that I’m not too disappointed. Rejection always stings, but I somehow think I’ll be able to move past this one!
CAA* July 6, 2018 at 3:11 pm LOL, sounds like they put your resume in the wrong pile or got the wrong tags on it in their system.
Delta Delta* July 7, 2018 at 2:51 am I once got called for an interview for a job I didn’t apply for. I went (because you never know), and I had a great time practicing interview skills since I hadn’t applied and as it turns out wouldn’t have wanted the job.
Not The Boss* July 6, 2018 at 2:03 pm I have a new coworker starting soon who will be junior to me, though I’m not yet a manager. (That promotion is hopefully coming soon, fingers crossed!) Our shared boss is already very busy and I have a feeling that a lot of the oversight of the new coworker’s day to day work, especially assigning tasks, will naturally fall to me. In Teapot Metaphor World, I’m a Teapot Specialist currently designing a line of teapots and being prepared for a promotion to Teapot Manager, the new coworker is a Junior Teapot Specialist who will be working on the same line of teapots, and our boss is a Teapot Director, a level above Teapot Manager, who rarely does any hands-on design work. Building on the theme of the excellent Ask A Manager book, what’s the right tone to take in these interactions? E.g. if New Coworker submits a teapot design that could use some work, is it a more managerial “this design needs to be more streamlined” or a more collegial “I noticed the design was a bit complex. In my experience, Boss is usually looking for something more simple and streamlined”? My goal here is for New Coworker to see me as a helpful resource but also to understand that I am supervising this teapot project and I do have decision authority.
Not The Boss* July 6, 2018 at 2:05 pm I should mention – I will also ask my boss about this but outside perspectives are also helpful.
LQ* July 6, 2018 at 2:20 pm I think something a little between is good. If it’s actually a horrible blob problem I think a little more to the “this is how we do it here” or “here’s what I’m expecting”. But if it’s close but not quite something that’s a little more tell me about why you got here and then if you can spot mismatch in reasoning and culture or design principles or whatever clarifying those it can be helpful. I would try to go for something a little more mentory that says, I’m really the expert on this subject and I know what the heck I’m doing, and I want to support you as you grow into someone with the skills do be an expert and know what the heck your doing. I kind of aim to train someone for the job I have. (In hopes that I get to have another job, which works out well for the most part.)
Not The Boss* July 6, 2018 at 2:37 pm Thanks, I like that! And I definitely do want to train New Coworker for the job I’m doing – our work is very specialized, so it’s something where I think people need that kind of mentorship and hands-on guidance to get to a point where they find it as rewarding as I do now. I want them to understand, without getting frustrated, that it may take a while until you are asked to give input on the overall look and feel of the teapot line, so focus on drafting really awesome teapot designs even if it seems a little boring, and I WILL notice and brag to our boss about you.
LQ* July 6, 2018 at 2:59 pm I think letting people know that their work is being talked up to the boss is really helpful. I have had a couple new people over the last 2 years and with the good ones I made sure they knew that I’d said good things to our boss about them. (And I actually did say those things, specific, clear examples of awesomeness to boss.) If you’re up for it even being willing to mentor a bit about culture can help a lot and it’s something I think that might be harder to do as a boss but as a lead person you can do it really easily. (“Jack who sends out the Taco Tuesday messages really has the ear of Jill in teapot experience so I would definitely make sure to go and try to have a relationship there.” “The bathrooms on the 2nd floor are always the cleanest.”…whatever…) And that I think does a really good job of sort of setting you up in that this is a person who I would be happy to have be my boss kind of a role.
Not The Boss* July 6, 2018 at 3:19 pm This is so, so helpful, and all stuff I can definitely do. Thank you!
LQ* July 6, 2018 at 4:02 pm Good luck! It’s so exciting to be able to train someone up to do what you had done (and as well or better, they don’t have to make your mistakes, they get to make new and exciting ones).
Matilda the Hun* July 6, 2018 at 2:59 pm The second one, because it gives a specific reason for why to streamline. If you have a way to pass on examples of past successful teapots, it’ll help her compare her new work to established work. Also, once she reports to you, if YOU like the stuff she’s doing now, you can encourage her to bring a little more of that complexity into the designs.
Not The Boss* July 6, 2018 at 3:22 pm Definitely true about encouraging more of the types of design I like if/when I take on a more managerial role! Though what I was trying to get at is whether I should be tonally closer to “you need to do this” or “I would suggest/recommend that you do this”. I would definitely explain in all cases.
PandaCat* July 6, 2018 at 2:07 pm I just wanted to thank everyone who gave me advice in last week’s open thread. (Bank teller leaving job following robbery.) So… thanks. :D
Favor economy fail* July 6, 2018 at 2:11 pm I work at a library where we have to cover desk shifts a few hours a day. I always try to be very flexible and volunteer to fill in when others need it, but it’s like pulling teeth when I need to be out and find coverage for my shifts. I’m frustrated and annoyed. I’m so done with being generous with my time because I feel like my co-workers are only taking and never giving.
Xarcady* July 6, 2018 at 3:43 pm When I worked at the circ desk at a university library, my supervisor was responsible for finding people to fill in shifts. She had the authority to just tell someone they needed to work an extra hour or two on the desk. Why has this been left to the individuals at your library? This seems like an inefficient way of handling things. I suspect a supervisor who doesn’t like to hear people complain about an extra hour or two on the desk, and who is taking the easy way out–making it someone else’s problem. I’d push back on my supervisor a bit, if I were you. After you have asked everyone and no one will volunteer to cover for you, go to your supervisor. “Supe, as you know I have a dentist’s appointment next Tuesday afternoon. I’ve asked Sally, Jane and Tom if they could cover the desk, and they all said no. I need to get to the dentist, so missing the appointment isn’t an option. What do you suggest we do to get coverage?” What happens when someone calls out sick? Why can’t that procedure be used when someone has to be out?
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 4:14 pm I haaaate that aspect of shift work. When I was an RA in undergrad, I had a coworker who behaved as though she was entitled to having her absences covered but never returned the favor. Essentially, her free time and social commitments were sacred, but other people’s time off was completely negotiable. Said coworker once walked off in the middle of a conversation with police about a resident who’d disappeared in a blizzard because it was 8:30 and her shift was over. It’s been years, and I’m still so mad about that last one.
Miss Pantalones en Fuego* July 6, 2018 at 5:27 pm WTF? Did the police officer ask where she was going?
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 9:48 pm There was a lot of activity that morning, and I don’t remember the exact sequence of events! Basically, we’d been notified that the student had left a party at the other end of town at midnight without his phone or keys. He didn’t show up by 6am and wasn’t in any of his friends’ rooms, and we were worried because it was super duper cold. Both of my bosses came in, along with their boss, and it was decided that we were going to print out pictures of the missing resident and knock on every single door in the dorm (around 300-400 total) to ask if anyone had seen him. The police were called, and at some point while I was speaking to them, I realized I hadn’t seen my coworker in a while. I text her, and she said that her shift ended at 8:30, so she was done. I pointed out that a kid was missing in subzero temperatures with no way to call for help and she said that her shift was over, so what did I expect her to do? Turned out that the missing student got on the wrong bus and showed up, safe and sound, a couple hours later without realizing that we’d called the police and put out missing person information on the local news! Ultimately a happy ending, but I’m STILL MAD at that coworker. Who just walks away in an emergency? She said later that she’d had plans to meet friends for breakfast at 10am and didn’t want to cancel but WTF? I know she was short on sleep (we both were! we’d been up since midnight worrying about this student!) but she was very callous and I never forgave her for it.
Zona the Great* July 6, 2018 at 6:35 pm Ha! I don’t know why but that image makes me laugh. I’d love to see that happen in real life.
Jerry Vandesic* July 7, 2018 at 11:47 am You might want to use the famous (in game theory circles) tit-for-tat strategy. Basically you do the same thing that someone did to you last time. So, if you ask a coworker to take your shift, and they say no, then the next time they ask you say no. On the other hand, if they took your shift, you take their shift. Repeat.
Windchime* July 7, 2018 at 3:09 pm I find it so annoying when managers expect employees to find shift coverage. Come on, managers — manage!
Argh!* July 6, 2018 at 2:16 pm My supervisor directed me to micromanage a report whose work was fine, in my opinion. She wants me to get involved at the beginning of a project, run things past her, and only *then* give it the go-ahead. Since I’d approved the last project, why on earth does she think that me getting involved will change anything? My report & I see eye-to-eye on how to do these projects, but my boss always has to put in her 2 cents. Nothing is ever good enough for her, but her edits & suggestions are always minor or meaningless. It’s just extra work to make something that’s not substantially better. The only real result of this is a demoralized and frustrated staff! /rant
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 6:58 pm It sounds like the target of her upset is actually you, not the direct report.
Argh!* July 6, 2018 at 7:52 pm Yes, because she really expects me to be her mini-me, like her pets are, but I’m so different in personality, intellect, and interests I’ll never guess what she wants.
Not All Who Wander* July 6, 2018 at 7:09 pm Ugh. I had one of these. He was the worst. Even the most generous of the staff and other managers came to the conclusion within 2 months that he was completely incompetent and unqualified for his position & focused on pointless minutia and edits because he couldn’t grasp the big, complex issues he SHOULD have been dealing with. On the bright side, mine didn’t last long in his position! (though that may have been the longest 8 months of my working life)
Argh!* July 6, 2018 at 7:54 pm I inherited this one, and this person is NOT a good fit for the job, similar to the story posted elsewhere in this thread – just shows up, does what’s been put in front of him & follows direction. No inner direction or thought at all.
Not for this one, thank you* July 6, 2018 at 2:20 pm Maybe a weird question: I’m applying for a customer service job which includes some editing/writing. I have freelance experience with editing, but, uh… what I’ve edited has all been erotica. (Published, and one of the authors is a USA Today bestseller, but…still.) I’ve been debating whether or not to put it on my resume. It’s experience…but… I’m leaning towards not. Does the commentariat have thoughts?
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 3:02 pm Was it an anthology or novel published by a mainstream press? Is the content particularly niche? How conservative is the company you’re applying to? If it’s pretty mainstream and you’re applying for a very open-minded company, you might be able to get away with it, as long as you don’t provide any explicit details. If it’s a particularly small indie press, really out-there content, or a more conservative company, you’d be better off leaving it off the resume. In either case, you miiiiight be able to refer to in in passing in your cover letter or in an interview question, but no more than a passing mention. If there’s any doubt, it’s probably best to err on the side of caution and leave it off entirely. I wish that you could be transparent about paid, professional work on ‘adult’ materials (as long as you weren’t adding a lot of lurid details!) but I think it’d come across as unprofessional to many, many people.
Not for this one, thank you* July 6, 2018 at 3:36 pm Individual novellas and anthologies. Some were self-pubbed on Amazon, some were published through one of the larger erotica-specific publishers around (which I suppose qualifies as indie publisher? I’m unsure.) Thankfully, the company seems quite casual (one of the [I assume tongue-in-cheek] job requirements is contributing to the Slack thread of “silly gifs”). Between your comment and MarsupialHop’s, I think I’ll leave off the nature of it and just put in that it’s experience editing fiction.
LGC* July 6, 2018 at 2:20 pm So, I did a thing at work and while it went well, I’m still questioning myself a little. I’m hourly, but I do check my email sometimes when I’m off the clock. Last night after I got home, my boss asked me if I could do a report for her and if I could have it ready by her department meeting this morning. She also said that she just needed me to have it done today, and it was fine if I couldn’t get it done by the meeting. (In my four years in my position, this is the first time I’ve remembered her asking this of me.) Today, my start time was right when her meeting was. I could have come in, but I have a prior commitment in the morning (it would have been fine if I missed it, but I would have preferred not to). I ended up doing the commitment, creating a quick draft of the report (I can’t work from home so I had to be in the office) which was the outline of what she wanted, running the report down to her and getting wrangled into a mini-presentation, and then after getting more details, doing a more detailed presentation when I got back to my desk. Overall it seems like everything worked out well. I’m still questioning whether I should have taken my boss at her word, though. Should I have just gone to work early and gotten it done even if everyone seemed fine?
CAA* July 6, 2018 at 3:09 pm It sounds like it was fine and she really meant it when she said that. If it happens again, you might respond to her email with something like “Unfortunately, I won’t be in the office until 9:00 tomorrow, and I know that’ll be too late for the meeting; but I’ll work on it first thing and email you a rough draft by around 9:20.” If you think she might have forgotten that you’re hourly and can’t work from home, you could say something like “Sorry I wasn’t able to get that report done before the meeting. I’m not allowed to work overtime from home and I had an appointment the next morning that prevented me from coming in early.”
LGC* July 6, 2018 at 4:07 pm I actually said something similar to that! I said that I’d try to have it done by 9:30 (which I did) but I couldn’t guarantee that I’d be done by then. I’m pretty sure that everything was fine, since she was apologetic even when she asked. (And again, this is NOT a routine request from her!) But for whatever reason, I felt like I should have just come in to knock out the report. Which is on me, but still.
Someone else* July 6, 2018 at 6:19 pm If you’re hourly, she probably shouldn’t have even expected you’d SEE the email until when you’d intended to come in the next morning, so it sounds to me like it was more of a hail-mary on her part that you might see it and might get to it early, but since you didn’t, no big, and your response/explanation is fine. I get where the worry comes from but I do think you’re fine in this situation. Your boss sounds reasonable. If she realllllllly wanted it she should’ve said so/said she approves of the overtime if that’s what it takes. Since she didn’t, it’s reasonable to assume everything is fine. (and if it’s not fine and she’s secretly holding a grudge that’d be her failing, not yours)
Observer* July 8, 2018 at 1:55 pm What I don’t really understand is why you don’t think it’s ok to take someone at their word. Does she have a history of saying one thing, but meaning something else? Expecting you to read her mind? Unless that’s at play, it’s always ok to take your boss at their word.
Jennifer* July 6, 2018 at 2:20 pm I am just beyond tired of being shunned and ostracized in my office. Is there ANY way to convince anyone higher up that there’s an advantage to them to putting me in some other space? I know they’re my “team” but they hate me and I can’t fix that, and we don’t share any workload where I need to depend on them for help or vice versa and we can’t even have “team” meetings because of me anyway, so… Why can’t I be tokenly on their “team” but in another office space so I don’t spend 40 hours a week with people who’d love it if I dropped dead? I can’t spend that much time with anyone who LIKES me. Seriously, I know it’s been worse in this office and it could be worse again and I do count my blessings that nobody’s actively trying to bully me or get me fired right now, but I am tired of being The Worst One here all the time. Just really tired of it.
LQ* July 6, 2018 at 4:14 pm If you don’t depend on them and vice versa is there any way you can highlight how your work is normally in a different area of the business? Or not even normally but like, I know I do communications and that’s normally with training, but since I’m doing a lot of work on our external communications I think putting me in the middle of the call center so that I can really immerse myself in the experience of what those customers are feeling would help my work. Or could we try out me sitting with the x team for a month, I think it might be helpful to learn about what they do and it would help me develop good skills. (Offer the try it for a month if the just move me doesn’t work, it’s just trial, it’s only a month, it’s not a big deal…) Or how about finding another team that you could be moved to entirely, not just physically, but “It’s really cutting edge (if your boss/company likes cutting edge, something else if they don’t) to assign the communications person to a scrum team with developers so that they are in there really working the content immediately. It might really give us an edge on our product.” Try phrasing it as something that is good for the company and leave out the they hate me part altogether.
Middle Name Jane* July 6, 2018 at 2:22 pm So I’m curious if any of my fellow alumnae contacted the college to tell them the alumnae director’s e-mail was tacky. I did, and got a response back from the alumnae director, who said that mass communications go through an approval process (I knew that), and that President K. had signed off on the letter. Also interesting is that she said “one of the approvers” (she didn’t say who) was the one who liked the idea of her making the letter personal. That, to me, makes it worse because multiple people saw this e-mail before it went out and nobody thought it was in poor taste. Anyway, here’s the original thread: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/07/did-this-goodbye-email-overstep-problematic-volunteer-events-and-more.html And I’ll likely change my username after this since my identity has probably been compromised, haha.
Annie Moose* July 6, 2018 at 2:26 pm Whaaaaat? That letter actually got approved by multiple people who thought it was okay?? That definitely makes it worse.
Middle Name Jane* July 6, 2018 at 2:34 pm That’s what I thought. And I wrote back and told her so, too. Honestly, I’ve long felt that the college has been tone deaf on certain issues. Planning alumnae programming when alumnae who work likely can’t attend, for instance. It’s not the 1950s anymore. I would say most of us who are under 65 or who didn’t marry a millionaire are in the workforce. I have a demanding job and work long hours. I can’t go to a lecture/reading/concert/other event at 10 a.m. on a random Thursday. I don’t feel like they give a damn about younger alumnae. Things like that just irritate the snot out of me. For such a progressive school, I feel like they’re really clueless about some things.
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 2:50 pm Alumni Associations are the wooooooorst. I’ve gotten multiple *credit card offers* from my alumni association, as if I’m not already in enough debt to the university!
Middle Name Jane* July 6, 2018 at 3:17 pm Yes, the original is at https://www.askamanager.org/2018/07/did-this-goodbye-email-overstep-problematic-volunteer-events-and-more.html .
Middle Name Jane* July 6, 2018 at 3:23 pm I misunderstood your question at first. Yes, I advised them to check out AAM and provided the direct link. I said that a number of alumnae had posted on the thread and that even non-alumnae felt the letter had an unprofessional tone.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 7:05 pm Ohhh, I would have to ask them if this is a new service they are providing for all former students. Inquiring minds want to know.
anonagain* July 6, 2018 at 7:16 pm I hope it was the former director’s idea to write the letter that way in the first place, at least. It would really suck if the idea originated with one of the approvers and she didn’t feel she could refuse.
Anon Coward* July 6, 2018 at 2:26 pm One of my colleagues is really making me angry. Although she can be nice, she has this tendency to spout prejudiced opinions. Yesterday, apropos of nothing, she ranted at another colleague for most of the afternoon about how she doesn’t “believe in” transgender people and thinks that transwomen are trying to impose on women’s hard-won rights. Another day someone was describing a wacky game show they saw that happened to be Japanese. She heard the description but not the fact that it was Japanese and asked what we were talking about. The person describing it said “oh, it was this Japanese game show I saw” and her reply was “there’s something wrong with them J*ps”. There have been several other incidents like this, even though she claims to have been active in anti-racist and LGBT support causes for much of her career. I don’t know what, if anything, to say. I’m never directly involved in the conversations and they aren’t about me, so it seems like I don’t really have standing to complain as I’d just be jumping in to something I overheard. What’s the right thing to do?
LGC* July 6, 2018 at 2:54 pm Point out that she’s being a jerk, calmly and firmly. (Not in those words obviously – say that she’s out of line and that you find her remarks inappropriate.) This is easier said than done – the trick is to expect that she’s going to say something offensive, and to accept that she has Terrible Opinions. And that the problem isn’t her Terrible Opinions, it’s that she’s sharing them at work. Or basically, to treat her erasure of the transwoman experience and her casual racism against the Japanese like you’d treat her gossiping about a good work friend – as a Rude Office Thing. (Also, she can be mostly progressive and still be really backwards on trans rights! Google “TERF”. Which got corrected to “TERRIBLE.”) (And also, her opinions really do stink. And if you’re a good friend, definitely try to get her to change them! But also, you’re going to have to put in the energy to do so.)
Anon Coward* July 6, 2018 at 5:38 pm Yeah, I’m familiar with the term TERF. She’s definitely that, with a side helping of fearmongering about sexual assault. *eyeroll* Terrible for sure.
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 2:58 pm Sometimes I find it’s more effective to cast an offensive statement as “weird.” That’s a charge people don’t tend to have a ready pushback for and it’s also less confrontational. “Using that word in 2018 sounds really weird, Jane.” For the long rant, there’s always “Dude, don’t you have some work to do?” or “Please just save it for the pulpit–I’m trying to work here.”
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 7:10 pm In one-on-one conversations, I have had good luck with “that’s not really cool”. I think why the statement works in part is because I don’t use the statement very much, so it stands out a bit. The other reason is I got the point across in a low key way, I haven’t slugged them with a hammer but they aren’t off the hook either.
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 3:18 pm I liked this post: https://www.askamanager.org/2011/10/coworker-keeps-making-racist-comments-to-me.html which has this script: “Those sorts of comments are offensive to most people and unwelcome in the workplace. I don’t want to hear anything like that again.”
Someone else* July 6, 2018 at 6:25 pm she claims to have been active in anti-racist and LGBT support causes for much of her career. These words…do not mean what she thinks they mean… Such claims are completely contradicted by your two examples alone. She sucks. Even if you’re not directly involved, if you’re within earshot and eyeshot when she says it, I think it’d be completely reasonable to say “wow, that’s really transphobic and inappropriate to say at work” or “wow that’s xenophobic and inappropriate to say at work”. And just leave it at that.
Lola* July 6, 2018 at 2:40 pm Can I negotiate a raise that came with a promotion? I took on a new position in a new location within my organization less than a year ago. It’s been a challenging 10 months where I took on a LOT more than what my job description required. I asked for a job description rewrite to reflect my current work. The process with this organization is that the head of your office submits a new job description for an internal promotion to HQ HR to determine the position level and salary band. After a lot of waiting, I finally got an answer! And I feel a bit shorted… The letter says I have been promoted to a higher level, but my salary is not within what I thought was the salary band for that level (they keep on talking a lot of talk about being transparent, but salaries are not). My salary has increased 6.3%. For the organization to bring me up to what I thought the salary band minimum was, I’d need an 11% raise. More importantly, my skills are essential for the project I’m working on, and I’m a huge value add. I’ve taken on many project management duties as well as the production of large deliverables. I receive lots of praise from coworkers and higher ups alike. Even colleagues I don’t know have congratulated me on how well I’m managing my duties. So… can I negotiate this raise? And how do I initiate it? I was informed by a letter that the head of office passed on to me. Do I email HR directly? Thanks a million for the help!
CAA* July 6, 2018 at 3:25 pm I would start with the head of office and say that you were disappointed with the new salary for your position because you know the going rate for this role in other companies in your area is $x to $y, and the $z amount they’ve offered you is so much lower. Then ask is there any way they can get you up to at least $x? Mention the $z amount because the head of office may not know or remember what the letter said.
Mockingjay* July 6, 2018 at 2:54 pm Minor vent: One of the engineers refuses to use any of the mandatory server tools: file shares, calendar, tracking system. He claims he can’t access the site at work so he’s not uploading the report. (But your office mate 3 feet away can.) He claims he can’t access the tools from home (btw dude, I don’t see in the system where you put in a telework request for today) or when on travel next week (that’s not on the calendar, either). I emailed him about a late task and he said he can’t get to it, sorry. He refuses to set up a simple VPN which would solve the access problem. It’s been 18 months of this crap. We are building a case to have him fired or at least removed from the project. For the record: we work on an IT/comms project. System connections are what we do. *insert very large eyeroll*
CAA* July 6, 2018 at 3:18 pm Wow, so what exactly can he accomplish on days when he teleworks or travels? I’d be looking to see if he’s committing time card fraud as a way to get rid of him sooner.
LQ* July 6, 2018 at 3:27 pm I have all the sympathy and empathy and a spare bucket of this is the worst for you on this. Ugh. Just do your job dude! At some point it’s harder to not do the work than to do it. I really feel you on this one!
MissDisplaced* July 6, 2018 at 6:33 pm Aren’t the use of these tools PART OF DOING HIS JOB, especially if he works in IT? They are for most people. I seem to remember an older post about the guy who flat out refused to use email on here and I believe he may have eventually been fired(?) I mean, especially if filling out a telework request is mandatory where you work. Then what’s he doing?
Been there, done that* July 6, 2018 at 11:05 pm So deja vu. I had a report that emailed an important client who was trying to get information on a shipment that was past deadline. She wrote that she didn’t have a phone. What???? The client forwarded the email to me. I confronted her. Her excuse was that she couldn’t set up her voicemail. How long did she not have voicemail? A year and half. What???? She wouldn’t use the share drive, she wouldn’t use the calendar application, she didn’t respond to emails (she didn’t get them, they went into spam, she couldn’t access the share drive) It turned out that my organization gave numerous chances to improve. It also turned out that the one thing that was needed was proof that she was damaging our reputation. Document. Document. Document. He doesn’t do his work. He doesn’t use the communication tools of his position. He doesn’t meet expectations or complete his work in an accurate or timely manner. His excuses are bovine excrement. Talk to your supervisor and HR. First step is a letter of expectations. Immediately he needs to correct “use any of the mandatory server tools: file shares, calendar, tracking system” “We are building a case to have him fired or at least removed from the project.” 18 months of documenting seems about right. A year and half of misery is plenty. Ask HR how to begin termination.
It’s all good* July 6, 2018 at 3:01 pm I read AAM on my iPhone. After I comment I can’t find a way to get back to were I left off nor get back to my comments. Using the back arrow does not work for this. So I start scrolling from the beginning of the post. Any shortcuts you are aware of for iOS? Thanks.
Fabulous* July 6, 2018 at 3:17 pm I don’t know about iOS, but on my Android as long as I’m reading in Chrome (versus through Facebook or another app) I can hit the options and choose ‘Find in Page’ to search for the username I commented on.
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 3:22 pm In iOS, you can search within the page you’re on by typing the word or phrase into the location bar and then scrolling down to the bottom of the pulldown to the “On This Page” entry.
it's all good* July 6, 2018 at 4:04 pm thank you. Can you help this ios challenged person please? Is the location bar the area where you type in the web address? if so, and I type in just my user name, it says nothing is found. I put in my user name before the web address and I got an error. I can’t put in my user name after the address because I can not get to it. I googled “ios location bar” and it talks about Location Services. Thank you for your time. (I went to my computer to answer this, can’t find this comment on my iPhone)
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 5:17 pm I’m not sure what it’s official name is, but yes, the bar where the URL goes. Here’s how it works: Come to this page. Type in “it’s all good” where you’d type in the URL The dropdown menue will show you Google Search suggestions. Scroll down to below those for a section labeled “On This Page,” which will say underneath “Find ‘it’s all good’.” Select that last one and you’ll see a grey bar at the bottom of the screen that says “1 of 4 matches” next to up and down arrows. (I just did this exact search and this is what I get.) If you click the arrows it will take you to each appearance of that phrase on the page. If you click on anything in the page itself or double-tap, you’ll lose the search highlighting and have to start again, but otherwise you can just boop through your posts.
Ask a Manager* Post authorJuly 6, 2018 at 4:05 pm You might have the box checked at the top for “collapse comments site-wide.” If you do, then when you comment and the page reloads, it’s going to collapse all the comments again so it won’t be able to take you back to where you were. You can fix that by unchecking that box.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 4:43 am Also, if you swipe down, a box with a little arrow pops up, hit that and scroll to the right and you’ll see a “find in this page” option. Thl is a great start to a name for searches hehe. I feel you, I literally spent hours searching for comments before I figured out how to use my iPhone properly.
ViVi* July 6, 2018 at 3:03 pm –Internal Job Application — Hello. I was wondering if anyone could share some advice. I have recently applied for an internal job position. It was posted for a week and it closed on June 25th. My application status shows “applied”… not rejected yet. The hiring manager and I actually work in the same building and on the same floor. We know each other (not much) but we haven’t had the chance to work together. In this case, would it be a good idea for me to email her and ask for a quick networking / job shadowing chat? Or should I simply wait patiently? Or should I email her maybe next week to do a follow up and see if she could let me the selection timeline? Many thanks!
Fabulous* July 6, 2018 at 3:16 pm If you know the hiring manager more than just in-passing, you could reach out to let her know you’ve applied and ask for a timeline, but I wouldn’t do much beyond that.
Mimmy* July 6, 2018 at 3:09 pm Just curious if anyone has ever gotten an internship without being a current student or recent graduate? My sister had suggested it as a way to get experience and I said I thought that you have to be a student. I tried a not-connected-to-a-degree internship once before but it didn’t go very well.
CAA* July 6, 2018 at 3:16 pm It depends on the company. I’ve worked in places where we had a specific relationship with a university and our interns were all students and got academic credit and feedback in a specific format for the work they did with us. In other places an internship was just a time boxed temporary full-time or part-time position, i.e. we can afford 3 people for 3 months at $18/hr and we expect them to complete this simple project in that time. For those I wouldn’t necessarily care if every applicant was a student or not, but the content of the job would definitely be entry level and possibly quite repetitive with minimal opportunity to exercise independent or creative judgment.
Yetanotherjennifer* July 6, 2018 at 5:33 pm I did 20 years ago. I had been laid-off and was considering a career change and got an internship at a local magazine. I was old for an intern, nearly 10 years out of college, but I’m pretty sure I answered an ad or something like that.
Chaordic One* July 7, 2018 at 12:33 am My former workplace sometimes hired people who were neither current students or recent graduates under their intern program. The people were paid minimum wage and the program was to supposedly offer them the chance to learn job skills and gain work experience. The people brought in under the program almost always had previous experience and performed well, but I question whether or not they learned anything valuable. I think they were just desperate for a job, any job, and for a few months they had one, so that was something, I guess.
Buu* July 7, 2018 at 10:04 am I did back aeons ago when the company were posting about intern stuff on their Facebook. I think they normally got 15 year olds, but I was in my 20s and temping and they said ” Sure why not!”. Not sure what your industry is but instead of looking on internship sites, look at the firms directly, and possibly ask? It’d be easier in smaller companies in more relaxed industries, but it may be possible to convince someone to take you on.
Fabulous* July 6, 2018 at 3:13 pm Pretty sure I’m going to quit serving on the Board of Directors on after this summer. I’ve been VP for 2 years now and was heavily involved in the board the year prior as well. I feel so guilty about wanting to quit though! Not only have I been instrumental in the group for the past 4 years (first as a member, then on the board running the website, social media, graphic design and creating promotional materials) but I can get a $3,500 grant through my workplace every calendar year as long as I’m on the board, which is huge for them! On the downside, my day job (the important one that pays me!) has been getting more demanding, plus my role will be changing in the coming months as well. I haven’t been able to devote as much time as I’d like to my Board duties for the last year or so, and things I used to do for the board have either gone to the wayside or gotten picked up by others. The biggest reasons, however, for me wanting to step down are: 1) I will be planning my wedding for next June, and 2) I will be having a child in January. Just these two things alone are weighing on me a lot already! And I’ve still got 5+ months to get it all together! I would gladly go back to the board in the future, provided I still live in the area, but for now it just doesn’t seem feasible to continue. How do you wade through the guilt to do what’s best for you?!
Say What, Now?* July 6, 2018 at 3:37 pm I’d say a good way to look at it is that you’re not just doing what’s good for you. You said that your duties are falling by the wayside or being picked up by others. They may be sitting in limbo waiting to see if you’ll be able to return to your former commitment level or if they need to replace/bolster your roll with an additional person. It’s actually a kindness to them if you take yourself fully out so they can move forward if they need to. And if it’s the money thing that’s got you most guilt-ridden maybe you could offer to do a once a year fundraiser through your workplace (nothing time consuming, maybe a silent auction or a department challenge with catered lunch to the group that brings in the most money) to try and raise at least part of that $3500 for them.
Antilles* July 6, 2018 at 3:40 pm Few potential thoughts/items: 1.) Is there a potential middle ground where you transition into a less busy role with the Board? Even if such a role doesn’t normally exist, given your contributions (and the workplace grant money!), they’ll probably jump at the idea of keeping you on as a ‘Past VP’ role or something of the sort, where you’re basically a regular member who they consult for advice when needed. 2.) If you really can’t afford the time and need to completely disengage, one way to feel less guilty is to make sure the org is in good hands before you leave. Document the duties that you used to fill that have “gone to the wayside”, chat with the people who have taken over your role, etc. 3.) Since you seem like you’d want to come back in the future, would your workplace be okay with still providing the grant even if you’re on a ‘temporary hiatus’? The answer might be no, but it’s worth asking, because there’s a reasonable chance they’d still consider it. Keeping the grant money would certainly help you feel less guilty. 4.) Even if none of these things work out, remind yourself of this: You really helped the organization grow during your time there. You’ve already done great things and helped them develop. It’s unfortunate that at your current stage, it’s not possible to keep on it, but you’ve already done some awesome work. Also, it’s a changing of the guard – you aren’t able to contribute yourself, but by leaving the org in good hands, you’re providing the opportunity for them to continue to grow by rotating in fresh blood and new ideas.
Seriously?* July 6, 2018 at 5:08 pm I agree that if it the money thing, then creating a new board role with minimal time commitment may be a work around. If that is not something you are up for, you shouldn’t feel a need to do it though! You have done a lot of work for them and if it no longer works for you you should be able to say that guilt free. Just tell that that between personal and work obligations you are not longer able to dedicate the amount of time needed for the position and that while you wish them the best you will have to step down. If they are reasonable they will not try to guilt you into staying on.
JessicaTate* July 6, 2018 at 7:57 pm For me, I came to the realization that I wasn’t going to be able to fulfill my board duties to the extent that I expected of myself and to the extent that I felt was what a board member should truly commit to in the organization. I thought about the few board members who had frustrated me by being absentee (from meetings, from working on committees, from being prepared, etc.) — I did not want to become one of them, which was entirely possible if I continued my service when other things in my life were taking precedence. Resigning when I did was how I showed my commitment to the organization, in a manner of speaking. It sounds like this is a working board, right? I wouldn’t recommend going the “at-large” route (position without responsibility) unless it’s already an established thing that people do and everyone is OK with the imbalance of workload.
BeenThere* July 6, 2018 at 9:31 pm You just have to learn when to say no and not worry about it. I have had to step back from various volunteer activities from time to time. I can’t do it all, no matter what I tell myself. And most importantly, they survived before I was there, they will survive after I’m gone… same for you!
OyVey* July 6, 2018 at 9:37 pm I’m considering leaving a board appointment also. Different reasons. There’s more than a whiff of tokenism involved and resistance to change (common in non profits but still). It’s becoming not worth my time, sadly.
Junior Dev* July 6, 2018 at 3:29 pm My new co-worker is irritating me. He’s always cracking jokes and derailing conversations. Everyone else laughs at him but I don’t. I kind of worry about coming off as mean but I think it’s rude of him to distract from attempts to get stuff done by going off on some tangent.
LQ* July 6, 2018 at 4:20 pm I feel you on this. It might calm down as he’s less new and has more worky stuff to contribute, right now he might be contributing humor because he doesn’t feel like he’s got a lot else to contribute but wants to be a value to the team. (And for some people that is a value to have that team environment.) I’m at work to work, but lots of people like it when the work place is warm and pleasant not just get in, do the work and get the heck out, if you’re like me I totally get how it seems rude, but it isn’t really unless it’s constant (and it’s likely that it is actually constant, it just can feel like it). I hope it cools off a bit as he gets more comfortable with the team and the work and can contribute in other more valuable ways.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 4:38 am If it’s As distracting as you say, the most likely scenario is People will get sick of it soon and stop laughing, and he’ll take it down a notch. I’d leave it for a while and see if it sorts itself out before saying anything. I commiserate though.
Laura H.* July 6, 2018 at 3:30 pm My mother has started Working From Home about 3x a week. (I wouldn’t be happy at the prospect of Hot-Desking either so I get that.) I live under her roof, don’t work full time- but do have a part time job- and I cannot drive, and this stint of her WFH is going to drive me batty if I don’t develop ways to… ignore it/ live with it. Because of authority boundaries, I can’t/ won’t ask her to shut her office door and don’t feel comfortable having the “You’re a little loud on your calls.” conversation- it COULD be the house acoustics after all, and there’s not a lot that can be done about that. I’m not sure if it’s just the general way am, but this lack of physical work and home boundary bothers me. I don’t have any desire whatsoever to work from home because I need that separation. In addition to the fact that I don’t intentionally eavesdrop, but I think it naturally happens. And it’s a miracle I haven’t verbally butted in with questions or anything else. (On my side of the WFH thing, I know that I’m not to interject into her workspace- in all senses of the word) But how do I make this bearable for me before I go BEC at her for something that really isn’t her fault and is her perk to use? (Again I totally think Hot-desking is a terrible idea, and I’d be peeved too because of these people’s inability to do BASIC MATH)
Jack Be Nimble* July 6, 2018 at 4:04 pm Is there anywhere within walking distance you can escape to during the day, say a library or coffee shop? If not, can you spend time in a different room of the house with headphones on and a fan for white noise?
A Non E. Mouse* July 6, 2018 at 4:10 pm But how do I make this bearable for me before I go BEC at her for something that really isn’t her fault and is her perk to use? Noise cancelling headphones, or a white noise machine? Knowing that you don’t drive – can you coordinate some outdoor chores and/or exercise for times she’ll be on a call? Gardening, reading a book outside in the shade if you aren’t currently affected by the heat wave, maybe a walk around the block, something like that? Another option maybe would be to find somewhere to be a little more often, if you can get transportation there reliably – community center events, library events or volunteering, etc.
Laura H.* July 6, 2018 at 4:44 pm That’s a great idea actually. There is transit in the area (I have to schedule it but I can do that easy peasy) and I do have a gym membership that I could do to get more use out of.
Nanc* July 6, 2018 at 4:14 pm You’re both adjusting to a new normal. You really can’t change other people’s actions/habits, you can only change her own. So think about what YOU change to try and make this work. Can you change your work hours so you’re out of the house when your mom is WFH? Or sign up for some classes/training, even if it’s online? Since you can’t drive, are you within walking distance of a library where you sit and read, pay bills, do a little online research for whatever? Is there a volunteer opportunity that’s within walking distance or you can reach by public transportation? Are you a runner/jogger/walker? If you schedule a workout during a time when mom is WFH that break may help. Can her office be rearranged so her phone is farther from the door so the sound doesn’t carry as much? How about a discussion–ask her how it’s going. Is she comfortable with the way her office is arranged? Does she want to change anything? What can you do to help her succeed here? Can you go to another part of the house and turn on a fan or white noise machine to mask the sound? Can you talk to her from the perspective that you’re afraid you’re disturbing her WFH and does she have any suggestions for what you might do to help her stay focused? How about if once a month on her WFH days you two go out to lunch or order in, just as a change of pace? Good luck–let us know how it goes.
MissDisplaced* July 6, 2018 at 6:26 pm I know this is your mom’s house and all, but I think you can very politely ask your mom to close the door to her office if she has an important call. I would just phrase it more as “I might overhear sensitive and private information you don’t want me to hear” rather than the “you’re too loud” aspect though. It’ also worthwhile to note to her that when her office door is CLOSED you will take it as a signal she’s doing something important and you’ll know not to walk in or otherwise interrupt her. I live with my husband, and we have to do the same thing. We share an office (he does not work at home), but sometimes I do have a work call and I have to shut the door. It’s nobody’s fault, and you just have to work it out.
Say What, Now?* July 6, 2018 at 3:31 pm I just read a story about a Starbucks employee who was fired for mocking a person with a stutter by adding additional syllables in front of their name on the cup (SSSam instead of Sam). This coming after a nation-wide shutdown for sensitivity training has me wondering if sensitivity training ever changes anything. At least they showed their commitment to better policy by firing the employee in question.
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 3:52 pm I don’t know about sensitivity training, but the HR training my department had to attend didn’t make a difference for the biggest offender. I wonder if the point is simply so that a company can document that they did training when they’re ready to fire an employee.
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 4:10 pm I certainly think that a company’s ability to say “we did something” is a big reason for its popularity. I suspect that the effects will vary from program to program to program and person to person, but my guess is the person least likely to benefit is the one sent there as a punishment, rather than the “everybody’s doing it” approach. OTOH, if it just gets the message across that when it comes to some thoughts they should STFU, that’s an outcome I can live with. But there is no training that will ensure nobody is ever an ass.
Someone else* July 6, 2018 at 6:32 pm Mmm. I suspect it’s equal parts “we did something” and “asses who will continue to be asses cannot with the ‘how was I supposed to know’ defense” not that it’s a valid defense anyone since adult humans should know the difference between being an ass or not. But it does help skip a step in “corrective action” if you can across the board say “everyone was told this”.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 4:33 am This. It’s so the ass in question can’t use “nobody told me” as an excuse.
The Ginger Ginger* July 6, 2018 at 4:19 pm Well, I think sensitivity training works in tandem with consequences. So the training is good for showing your employess what forms a certain type of discrimination or harassment can take (e.g. not all sexual harassment is pressuring someone to have sex with you, it can also be making sex jokes at work, or talking incessantly about your sex life etc.), and then the company’s willingness to enforce consequences post training promotes a no-tolerance/more sensitive culture over all. This is also something that takes time. It doesn’t work over night. That being said, I was under the impression that the Starbucks training was focused on racial discrimination, not on general “sensitivity” training. So….who knows what they have or haven’t explicitly said about disabilities to their employees. They may have been relying on COMMON HUMAN DECENCY (ffs, barista, wth) in that area. SMH.
H.C.* July 6, 2018 at 4:54 pm On a related note, my podcast playlist just landed on the This American Life episode about the Starbucks sensitivity training – can’t wait to hear the rest of it on my return commute.
Can’t make this stuff up* July 6, 2018 at 6:29 pm Reminds me of a comedic bit where a customer with a stutter felt he was being mocked by an employee; until he realized the employee had a stutter too.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 7:20 pm If it’s anything like charm school, some have to go back for periodic refreshers. I think it works along the line of the careless driver who is ordered by the court to take a driver safety course. They either get it, or they don’t and they have to redo it later on.
Chaordic One* July 7, 2018 at 12:44 am It really does make you wonder. At my former workplace the biggest biggoted jerk was the spouse of the “Director of Diversity and Inclusion.” The director was a person of color, but the spouse made fun of LGBT people. They both left the company at the same time and moved away. Strangely, the company didn’t have a big going away party for them. I sort of wonder if the spouse might have been discliplined, but that is probably just wishful thinking on my part.
VictoriaQ* July 6, 2018 at 3:39 pm So, I learned a little of a programming language in college and I’m wondering how to put it in my resume. I learned R, and we used StudioR because we are not programmers. Should I say that I learned R via StudioR? Just that I learned ‘StudioR (programming language)’?
EA in CA* July 6, 2018 at 3:58 pm How far are you out of college and you mean little, how little of the programming language are you talking about? Are the roles you are applying for requires you to be knowledgeable of programming language or is part of the employer’s nice to have list? If it is not relevant to the position or does not strengthen your candidacy in any way, I wouldn’t put it on there.
CAA* July 6, 2018 at 4:09 pm Do you have a skills section? If you do, put StudioR in there and just be prepared to talk about how you learned it and used it.
sleepwakehopeandthen* July 6, 2018 at 6:22 pm I will say that I use R via RStudio extensively for my work/PhD because it’s just such a better interface, and since it’s still the same coding language, I think using Rstudio as a platform for your R scripts is essentially the same as using R (I am assuming you are talking about RStudio), so you could probably just list it as R instead of RStudio. I think where you list it depends on what kind of jobs you are applying for and how much you actually know. I would only list it if you would be able to write up some basic codes to do things with it (like, do you still remember what you learned in that class? Can you use it to analyze a few things?) and if it is relevant to the jobs you are applying to.
Jane* July 6, 2018 at 3:46 pm My boss keeps asking me to do this “optional” thing that I really, REALLY do not want to do. I told her at first I would think about it, which I did, and then I told her some reasons why I didn’t want to do it. She keeps saying “no pressure, but I just want you to consider it.” But then when I say, no, I’d really rather not, and say some reasons why, she tells me my reasons are not valid. I’m not sure what to do here. She is specifically not saying “You have to do this,” she is saying, “Only if you want to.” Do I have to do this? (I really, really really, don’t want to. I think it is a terrible idea.)
AdAgencyChick* July 6, 2018 at 3:58 pm I think you can say “Is this really optional? If you need me to do this, I’d really rather you just say so.” (Or, if you think your boss would consider that too confrontational, then “Is this really optional? It doesn’t feel that way to me, so I’d just like to clarify.”)
AdAgencyChick* July 6, 2018 at 4:00 pm Also: Is it that you think it’s a bad idea that no one should do, or it’s an unpleasant task that you appreciate the need for, but do not want to own? If the latter, it might go better to propose some way of getting the task done than just “Jane does it.” For example, could you rotate the task between yourself and others at your level?
LQ* July 6, 2018 at 4:31 pm This is a really good point. If it’s just sort of …ugly work that is tedious or some such, proposing a way it get handled (note the passive voice ;)) is a good way to work on that.
LQ* July 6, 2018 at 4:30 pm When your boss has given you work before how has she given it to you? Loosely or with clear structure and definition? If it has always been loose then you might have to do it. If it is normally really clear then I think you can say no. I’d also sit down and if you think it’s a really terrible idea for anyone to do, ask about why (and really really listen) and try to push back a little (depending on your capital) on the idea that it needs to get done at all, but understand you might not have the whole picture, and listen carefully for the things that your boss isn’t supposed to (and/or doesn’t) say about it. Is this coming down from on high but your boss doesn’t support it either? Is it her pet project? Is it something that someone with power elsewhere cares about? Etc. I’ve successfully not done things like this. But I’ve also done things like this because I realized they were important for other reasons even if I might not get what those Other Reasons were at the time.
Jennifer* July 6, 2018 at 4:44 pm Yes, I think you have to if she tells you your reasons for saying no aren’t valid and she won’t stop asking and she’s your boss. The metamessage is “You have to do it.” You have to “want” to. Sorry :(
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 7:28 pm Yeah, if they keep asking, then you will probably end up doing it. I assume it’s nothing unethical/illegal and it is physically possible for you to do the work. I can’t climb ladders, it’s not that I don’t want to, it’s that I WON’T. My hill and yes I will die on it and I have. But it’s an example of something that is not unethical or illegal but still a deal breaker. And yeah, I am probably fit enough to climb a ladder. It might be that you have met your hill. Most of the time, I find that as I go through dreaded task I find ways to mastering it. I can streamline it. I can make it easier to replicate in the future. Sometimes I can even turn it around so that others are willing to take over. (Yeah, sure now that Task is easier, everyone wants it.) If you can, ask in a sincere tone why Task is so important. Sometimes I have asked and once I find out I am able to explain why that importance is no longer relevant and in turn removes the necessity to do the Task. And I am off the hook.
Jane* July 6, 2018 at 7:35 pm Thanks for all the replies. Yes, the problem is mostly that I think the entire thing is a dumb idea, and the reason I don’t want to do it is because I don’t want to be the person doing the dumb thing. I am pretty sure I know where the “need” is coming from, and I’ve offered up an alternative, but my boss is still really suck on this idea. It’s like…let’s say we make bobble heads, and her boss said “Hey, I’d like to see some more exciting bobble head designs” and my boss wants me to design and show him a design for a bobble head that makes a really annoying noise in order to make her boss happy. I said “I’m not sure I can make a marketable annoying noise bobble head, because annoying noises are…annoying.” But she thinks this is the best way to fulfill what her boss asked for. She kind of has a history of misreading her boss, though, so that makes this even more uncomfortable. I mean, it isn’t exactly like that, but it is really more of an image thing. I think this thing will make my department look dumb, but my boss thinks it will make us look good. I don’t want to be the person making us look dumb. My boss has never done the optional/not optional thing before….or at least, not with something I felt strongly that I didn’t want to do. I usually do whatever is asked, even if it is optional, so I guess I’m not really sure if other optional things were actually “optional.”
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 4:31 am The only person who can tell you whether it’s really optional or not is your boss. You’re going to have to have that conversation. “I don’t want to do this. If you order me to do it, I will, but if it’s genuinely optional, my answer is no”
Argh* July 6, 2018 at 3:47 pm As somebody in an admin/reception position who wants to be promoted, how do you draw the line between being a team player and helping out where you are asked and being a pushover? I am having more and more mundane tasks (printing jobs, copy assembly, etc) piled on my workload and constantly am told that nobody else knows how to answer phones/find envelopes on the shelf/ use the copier and I am the one and only who can handle these things. I take on these tasks with a smile and a positive attitude but it’s getting hard. My SO thinks I am a pushover and need to say I won’t do these things anymore but I’m afraid I will be seen as having a bad attitude and then definitely won’t get promoted. Any advice on how to make this distinction and be seen as a serious, capable professional while still being a team player?
Argh- no relation* July 6, 2018 at 3:49 pm Also, I didn’t even see Argh! above, I am a different- punctuation free Argh
Rey* July 6, 2018 at 4:03 pm If you have a good relationship with your manager/supervisor, I would check in with them about your job description/role. I would be specific in that, “I am being asked to do more X and Y tasks for them, which I have not done in the past. This is delaying the completion of Z assignment from you. Do you want my position to take on X and Y tasks? Should individuals do X and Y themselves instead of passing it on to me?” It can be very hard to change your ways if you usually are a team player. But once your manager gives you the go ahead to not do these tasks, play dumb when people ask you about it. Point them towards the copier, and leave it at that. Most intelligent people are capable of printing jobs themselves, even if it takes them a few tries to do it with your same efficiency. You need to send them a very strong message that they cannot misinterpret or ignore that you are not involved in those tasks And if you are interested in being promoted, look at the skills that are required for that position and see what projects you can get involved in now that will help you acquire those skills.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 4:27 am Don’t just play dumb and point at the copier, that’s not a good idea. If you are being overloaded with photocopying to th extent that you can’t answer the phones, or there is a massive delay in getting the copies done, the way to deal is to come up with a plan for it. Eg ask your boss to communicate to the office that people are pushing too much copying onto you, and as a result there will be a delay when people request copies. If people need something urgently they can either do it themselves or else you need some system of prioritising. Often a quick email from the boss will sort out work overload like that. Eg an email from your boss along the lines of this: “recently argh has received a large number of requests for photocopies, which is causing a delay in responding to requests efficiently. It is important that argh be able to respond to urgent requests for copies quickly, so if it’s not urgent and you can do it yourself, please do so”. Obviously not that wording exactly, but the point is it should come from Arghs boss to the office as an official request, not from argh just playing dumb and pointing at the copier!
CAA* July 6, 2018 at 4:06 pm Can you check with your manager about whether she thinks these things are part of your job and ask for her help in communicating your job description to the people who are piling on? In my experience, it’s pretty normal for a receptionist/admin to do printing, copy assembly, answer phones, find the stationery supplies, etc, so unless somebody in authority said “our receptionist doesn’t do these things, she only does x,y,z” I think most people just wouldn’t know that they shouldn’t ask you for that kind of support. I definitely wouldn’t just refuse to do these activities without having some backup from your manager, though it is reasonable to tell people that you won’t be able to get to their needs until you’ve finished with whatever higher priority thing you’re doing.
EA in CA* July 6, 2018 at 4:15 pm These are exactly the types of tasks you will be assigned given that you are in an admin/reception position. So the question is, what do you envision as a promotion from your current role? Do you want to stay within an admin career track or branch into something else? I started my career in your shoes and was completely the type to take on any task that was given/thrown my way. It did build my reputation as being a solid employee, dependable, reliable, the person you go to to get anything done. My role was to ensure that the office was running smoothly and make the lives of my boss and coworkers easier. Your role as an Admin is to ensure the success of the company by making everyone else more efficient and giving them the support to free up their time to make sales, meet with clients, create a strategy for the next 5 years. I was promoted three times in less than 2 years at old job because of those qualities. Also advocate for yourself to take on new projects or task. Ask your boss if you can train in an area that interest you.
Seriously?* July 6, 2018 at 6:00 pm If you are legitimately too busy to do the new tasks, you can go to your manager to clarify your role and tell her the problem. Tell her that you are increasingly being asked for X, Y and Z and that is taking time away from tasks A, B and C. See what she says. If you are not too busy and simply dislike it then it is difficult as an admin/receptionist to say no to answering phones and helping with the copier. However, if you have a good relationship with your boss you could tell her that you are unhappy with the amount of printing jobs and copy assembly that you are being asked to do and would really like your role to evolve into doing more (insert task here) and ask if that is possible.
Jane* July 6, 2018 at 7:57 pm What kind of tasks do you think you should be doing? Printing, copying, and phones are usually the bread-and-butter of an admin/reception position, so unless you were specifically hired to do something different from that, you might be stuck with it for now. Are there people in your office for whom it would make more sense to do those tasks? Because as long as you have the title “admin” or “receptionist,” those tasks are probably going to fall to you until they hire someone else to do them. Do they know that you want to move up in the company? Have you talked to your boss about your professional development? That conversation is perfectly reasonable to have….but a promotion won’t happen by you refusing to do tasks that are reasonable for you to be asked to do in your current position. If you want to be promoted, I would set a time to talk to your boss and say, “I’m thinking about my future in the company here, and I’d really like to move up the ladder at some point. I’m particularly interested in X and Y, and I have been trying to develop those skills by doing P, Q, and R. I think my work with Z shows that I would be good at that as well. What do you think it would take for me to get from where I am now to a point where I might be considered for X job?”
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 4:14 am I agree with everyone else – clarify with your boss what your role is. All the things youve described are usually what admin/receptionists do. If you’re being onerloaded with work and don’t have time to do all of them, ask your boss how to deal with that, eg does she want to to address the requests first come first served, or deal with high-up people’s requests first, or what. Secondly, it’s not usual for admin/receptionists to be promoted, unless it’s a big company with a big admin staff. In a small company they typically only need one admin/receptionist and thats it. Is there a role for you to be promoted into? For example, if its a firm of engineers, they arent going to make you an engineer if youre a really good receptionist, you will just stay as a receptionist. But if its a firm of lawyers, maybe you could advance to being a secretary of the boss or something (i have no idea if thats even a promotion).
Environmental Compliance* July 6, 2018 at 4:08 pm This pH probe at work is driving me batty. It apparently calibrates fine to the same 4/7/10 buffers that the other probes are calibrated to. It will randomly test at 3 units higher than the other probes. There is no temperature difference between the probes. Maintenance is insisting that the probe, cabling, connectors have all recently been replaced (“they’re brand new!!”). I have no idea *why* this probe is going out on a bender randomly, but since the alarms are connected to it, it makes it quite an issue, and makes it look like we’re out of compliance when we’re not. The only thing I can think to do at this point is to replace the damn thing, but Maintenance is insisting that the probe is new. (Or maybe it’s electrical gremlins, I seem to attract those.) Any weird pH probe problems others have experienced? Is this just an electrical gremlin infestation?
Seriously?* July 6, 2018 at 5:00 pm If you have more than one problem and this is the one connected to an alarm, is it possible to switch it with one not connected to an alarm while you figure out what is wrong with it?
Environmental Compliance* July 9, 2018 at 8:11 am No, this is the only one available to connect to the alarm through the (admittedly not the greatest) system we have. Happily, the system may be getting an update, so maybe switching out indicator probes would be easier then!
LCL* July 6, 2018 at 5:27 pm Intermittent glitches like that are a classic sign of the brains of the thing failing. Something is going bad in the microprocessor or whatever does the processing for the device. Printed circuit boards fail, and all of these electronic failures tend to happen more when the device heats up. Annunciator devices themselves can have frequent input failures. Less likely but possible is a defective batch of physical parts. So you think the lead is bad, so you replace it with a new one that is bad, and the replacement’s replacement is bad, and you finally get the recall notice but too late because an accident has happened to the buggy device and you have replaced it with a different series. Next time you have an alarm, try swapping leads with a known good probe and see what happens. Or putting the leads to a different input in the annunciator device, if that is possible. And, if you can find the equipment model number, do a general google search and some trade website searches. There may be a defect known to everyone except your maintenance people.
Environmental Compliance* July 9, 2018 at 8:13 am Yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s the probe itself – which it’s a plug-n-play probe, you can’t take it apart willy nilly and get it to work again, which seems to peeve our Maintenance dept. Someone, somewhere has to know what manufacturer the probe is from so I can call and see if we still have a warranty or not!
Free Meerkats* July 6, 2018 at 6:06 pm Just because it’s new, doesn’t mean there’s nothing wrong with it. Having dealt with a lot of pH violations and probe issues, my money is on an intermittent electrical problem in the probe or one of the other new items. Does it do a step change (say, reading 7.0, then within seconds, 9.8) or does it drift to the bad reading? If a step change, it’s electrical and the chart recorder will show that, especially if it goes back to the correct reading the same way. If it drifts, I’d suspect either a plugged reference solution vent or a clogged reference junction. Can you put a temporary recorder in next to this probe to a. confirm compliance, and b. demonstrate to maintenance that there really is a problem?
Environmental Compliance* July 9, 2018 at 8:22 am Right??! But our Maintenance guys keep telling me it’s new, it’s not the issue. Well, if all of it’s new….don’t you think it should be working? If it’s ‘new’ and not working, then we need to return it. It seems to randomly jump to consistently reading 3 units above – it’ll be good for a couple weeks, then that day it’ll be off all day, if that makes sense. What I’ve done so far is demonstrate it’s not temperature-related using temp readings and the measurement is consistent across 3 other probes. I’d like to order a mobile pH probe, so I can physically stand next to the batty one and show that it’s off (right now you have to walk about 2 minutes to the plugged in second pH probe, or about 10 minutes to the lab’s pH probes). I think I’m stuck at replacing the probe (or getting it replaced by warranty, which is what I’d prefer). I don’t know what else I can do to show Maintenance it’s borked.
stitchinthyme* July 6, 2018 at 4:38 pm So every time I’m due for an annual performance review, I think it’s going to be horrible — this is partly impostor syndrome and partly a legitimate response to the fact that a lot of times I just feel like I don’t have enough to do. But every time, my reviews are just fine (a bit over 4 on a scale of 1 to 5, where 1 is basically “you suck” and 5 is “you’re a god”), and the one I had about a week ago, my fifth at this company, was no exception. I’ve been reluctant to ask my boss for more things to do, mostly because he made a comment in my very first review about my approaching him too much (He’s my boss! Who else am I supposed to ask for work?? But he’s not a very good manager of people, although he’s a nice person and very technically competent), but I did mention the issue while talking with him for my review last week, and he said he’d talk to the project managers and see about getting me more work. So that’s something. Meanwhile, the guy I’ve generally worked most closely with, and whom I’ve learned a hell of a lot from, just announced he’s leaving. Since he’s been one of the main people I’d actually get work from, this seems like it could be really bad for me. But I guess we’ll see. No advice really needed; just needed a place my coworkers don’t read to vent a little…
Drew* July 6, 2018 at 4:47 pm Two weeks ago, I applied online for a job I really wanted and didn’t hear anything. I was planning to ask how long I could wait before sending a followup email, but today the job disappeared from their site. Sigh. The search for something better continues.
BRR* July 6, 2018 at 5:48 pm That always stinks. I know you don’t want to hear this but I would almost never (99.9% never) follow up after only applying.
nep* July 6, 2018 at 7:03 pm Same with BRR–I never follow up after applying. It’s redundant and–in my view–does nothing to enhance your chances and could be a turn-off. They know you’re interested–you gotta leave it there. If they like what they see enough to want to know more, they’ll contact you. All the best in the search.
The Dread Pirate Buttercup* July 6, 2018 at 5:01 pm I used to be SO GOOD at Excel, people would say, “You can do that? Really? With Excel?” but I haven’t used it for hardcore applications for almost a decade and I need a brush-up. Does anyone have a recommended free/ cheap MOOC? My state does ALISON, which is just… videos about using Excel. which does not turn out to be the best way to learn, for me. (In case you’re wondering: no, it is not possible to gnaw one’s own face off from boredom. After those videos, I would know.)( The BEST way for me to learn was for someone to hand me a problem and say, “Make Excel do this the Dread,” but I’m drawing blanks on that… not a lot of people getting back to me on volunteering, alas.)
fposte* July 6, 2018 at 5:20 pm I suppose it depends on how hard-core you’re talking about, but you might look at lynda.com; some public libraries have subscriptions that you can use for free. Is there an at-home project that could benefit from some Excel love and challenges? Retirement projections with a little XIRR action and some attractive pivot tables, with tax variables considered?
A Non E. Mouse* July 6, 2018 at 6:01 pm fposte mentioned Lynda.com, which is good. So is http://www.gcflearnfree.org. When I was trying to increase my skills in spreadsheet software, I first started with a robust data set. So maybe you find one of those first, and then learn/use skills against it. Since I was looking to learn how to work with financial data over time (for work), I downloaded all my financial transactions, across bank accounts, credit cards, etc. for a year to one sheet on my home computer. I then had to slog through standardizing items across sources, LOTS of new formulas/Vlookups there, and then started playing with Pivots and working through what I could do with the data.
Tabby Baltimore* July 6, 2018 at 10:51 pm You can also try looking at this AAM site https://www.askamanager.org/2012/02/ask-the-readers-how-can-i-get-excel-skills.html for the information (listed below). This post was from 2012; I haven’t checked to see if all the URLs listed are current: 1) Learning Express at http://www.learnatest.com/lel/ 2) VTC at http://vtc.com/ 3) the Mathletics book with spreadsheets to play with: http://waynewinston.com/wordpress/?page_id=13 4) Chandoo.org (http://chandoo.org/wp/excel-tutorial/) 5) John Walkenbach (http://spreadsheetpage.com/) 6) Bill Jelen (http://www.mrexcel.com/) 7) Jon Peltier – Advanced Charting (http://peltiertech.com/) 8) Jorge Camoes – Excel Charts (http://www.excelcharts.com/blog/) 9) Debra Dalgleish (www.contextures.com) 10) Francis Hayes (http://theexceladdict.com)
Trixie* July 6, 2018 at 5:01 pm Some good news on a Friday at the end of a long week. I received an offer for new position at current company and anticipate a 25% salary increase. Will make up for any bumps from current position during transition. Note to self: Will need more clothes. (For once, a good problem to have.)
Trixie* July 7, 2018 at 10:55 am This is a potentially happy ending at the end of a classic nothing-is-changing story. Overworked and while verbally praised, no official recognition in title, job description, or salary. After a glowing review just two months ago and no changes on the horizon, I opted to change departments. Not what I have in mind for long term goals but something needed to change because I’m exhausted and facing burnout. Cheers to internal transfers and opportunities!
NonSequitor* July 6, 2018 at 5:26 pm It’s late, I’m sure no one will really see this, but I have to put this out into the ether before I start complaining out loud. I’m cranky. I’m irritible. Everyone and every thing is annoying the #$@ out of me. I just had two days off for the holiday and came back to feeling irritible and frustrated and needing a break. To be honest, after the 6 months I’ve had, I’m surprised I’m not more burned out than I already am. But, maybe this is how my burn out is manifesting… into a agitated mess.
EddieSherbert* July 6, 2018 at 5:35 pm I’ve been having a hard time returning from holiday as well (took Mon/Tues off along with Wed), and I haven’t had a tough time at work lately! It makes sense. Sometimes coming back from vacation isn’t actually refreshing like we imagine. Hope things get better!
Twostep* July 6, 2018 at 5:42 pm I had a conflict with a colleague, do I address it even though I’m leaving? So last week I had to work all day with this coworker, Wakeen. We had important work to do with clients, each with our own role. I couldn’t do my part without him and vice versa. There was a lot to get through. Well, Wakeen arrived half an hour late and was unprepared for the day. Because the first client was already there I just got on with things but once we had finished with her I took him aside and briefly pointed out that 1) we had a lot to get through and couldn’t afford any cancellations and 2)he had been late and this was disrespectful to both myself and the client. Take my word for it that being half an hour late in this setting is NOT DONE and calling your colleague out on it is a reasonable response that at least 50% of us would do. Wakeen responded by barely letting me talk before he raised his voice and told me I was out of line. He “wasn’t late”, “how dare I” etc… Essentially loud defensive bluster that would not let me speak and was very confrontational. He was just about shouting and our junior colleagues came in to tell him that he needed to lower his voice as clients could hear. I stopped trying to engage on this as I could see it wouldn’t help and I just wanted to focus on getting everyone seen that day. In the end, our last client had to be cancelled. My question is – do I address this with him. I’m actually leaving this job next week (I love it but am moving cities). He’s now on leave so it would need to be an email. Do I bother to send one saying – hey, start time really matters in this context and it’s really not OK to respond to appropriate respectful feedback by shouting at your colleagues until they give up trying to discuss things. What do you guys think? I mean, it doesn’t matter to me if he gets better in this regard, I’m gone, but he really was out of line
NonSequitor* July 6, 2018 at 5:51 pm My question would be whether you’re doing it for your benefit or his? If you’re doing it because you feel he was out of line/how dare he and deserves to be told as much, I wouldn’t bother. Because despite the fact that it sounds like you are right and he acted like squib, you likely won’t get the response you want, which is some kind of acknowledgment that he acted badly. And to be honest, unless you’re his manager, I don’t know that I would bother telling him for his own benefit unless you have something else to say (and even then, I don’t know that I would do it). You already told him being late = bad. He denied it and got offended. Emailing him to reiterate that being late = bad is a bit of a button push. Hey, guy I know I said this before and you didn’t care at all, but because you were such a PITA I wanted to put it in writing.
Seriously?* July 6, 2018 at 5:53 pm I think that you need to bring it up to your manager. If nothing else, the fact that he shouted at you when you tried to talk to him about an issue is unacceptable and also indicates that you cannot give feedback to him directly.
Not So NewReader* July 6, 2018 at 7:34 pm Agreed, tell your boss and let the rest go. Be sure to include that someone came over and told him to lower his voice.
BRR* July 6, 2018 at 6:01 pm Between you leaving and it having to be done via email I wouldn’t. If this is in line for him I would give either a manager or your colleagues a heads up but otherwise, and it pains me to say this, I would let it go.
atexit8* July 6, 2018 at 9:22 pm Only tell your manager that he was 30 minutes and that someone else had to tell him to lower his voice. What does telling him off in a email get you? Will telling him off in an email get him to change his tone when doing in person didn’t? Let it go. He’s a jerk but someone else’s problem.
char* July 6, 2018 at 5:54 pm File under office air conditioner wars: the founder of the company works on the first floor. Often when he comes up to the second floor, he asks aloud why the air conditioner is set “so high” (it’s not), turns it down, then immediately leaves. And then everyone who actually works on the second floor ends up freezing until someone turns it back up. Sigh.
atexit8* July 6, 2018 at 8:35 pm I have worked the past 4 weeks as a temp/contract employee on 1099. I have a simple agreement saying I will be paid once a week. Today July 6 is the 4th week. So, far I have received only 1 paycheck though the 2nd paycheck reportedly was mailed out from their accounting firm yesterday, so I should receive it tomorrow or Monday. I really don’t want to get too far behind when getting paid. When I worked for the major temp agencies such as Aerotek, I would be paid for the previous week’s work. I am thinking that if I don’t get both the 2nd and 3rd paychecks next week, that I’d not go in until they catch up. Thoughts?
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 3:59 am Don’t just not show up with no warning. Occiasionally there actually is a little bit of a delay getting new employees set up properly. Also some companies may work a back fortnight – so you might get paid for the week before last, rather than paid for last week. If they do that consistently, and you have a bit of a buffer in your bank account, that’s not necessarily a problem as you still have money coming in each week, plus you’ll get two more cheques after you leave. So I would say: 1 clarify with them what they plan is – once they sort out the teething problems will you be paid consistently for 2 weeks ago, or for last week, or for this week? What’s the long term plan. It’s likely they will say this is just teething problems and ultimately you should be paid every week for the week before. 2 give them a deadline to get on track. So if you are supposed to be paid for the previous week every Friday, tell them you want all the checks you are due by next Friday. And that if they don’t, you won’t be able to continue to work there, as you need a job where you can be paid reliably.
atexit8* July 7, 2018 at 5:48 pm I agree about not showing up without warning. I have decided to email them on Monday that I will be not showing up until the checks are caught up. I have worked 4 weeks and have been paid for 1. I am not sure about the 2nd check as to when or if it was mailed. The accounting firm told them it was “Paid” on a report. I have no intention to go in and work week #5. Being paid weekly — which is in the agreement — means I am paid the following week. I should have 3 check and receive the fourth check this coming Friday July 13 or Saturday July 14. Thanks for your helpful comments! .
Overeducated* July 7, 2018 at 8:11 am My work usually pays 2 weeks behind so I wouldn’t worry too much yet, as long as you get the 2nd paycheck right away and the others follow weekly.
Gatomon* July 8, 2018 at 1:09 am Most places I’ve worked have been the same way. If the payperiod is 1st – 15th then the check for that period is direct deposited/mailed on the ~30th. I’d clarify this with payroll before doing anything else.
Sticky Notes 4 All* July 6, 2018 at 8:46 pm What’s your opinion of nontraditional office supplies? Humorous sticky notes, colorful paper clips, etc? Are they inherently unprofessional? As long as they’re not offensive…would they be allowed in your workplace, for actual use (beyond mere display)?
Elisabeth* July 7, 2018 at 12:38 am I’m client-based, so facing a client, solid no. I also wouldn’t hand my cute cupcake post-its to my manager. I do have multiple colors that I use, and I keep fun ones at my desk for my own amusement and for notes to my peers and occasionally my staff.
AvonLady Barksdale* July 7, 2018 at 8:13 am Same here. I don’t see clients that often, but when I do, I make sure not to bring the notebook with the weird quote from 90210. But just for me, I like a little irreverence in my office supplies. I draw the line at pens with poofy things on them, though. A few years ago, every woman in my office had one, including me, but these days I think they would make me look too junior.
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 3:52 am I work in a very traditional Male-dominated field and I’m a fan of colourful stationary. I have had some jokes and a good few comments, and I’m sure some old fuddy-duddys have thought less of me for it. but I’ve never had any problem with people telling me not to use them in front of clients or anything like that. It helps that I’m a big fan of function first and form second, so all my stuff is actually useful in some way. For example I have a colourful sticker with my name and a little cartoon on my laptop and notebooks. I got a few chuckles, until we were working in a big meeting room for weeks and there was a lot of “which one is mine” going on. Never had any comments after that. I print our a colourful week / project grid with 5 columns for each day to help me plan – it looks cute but more importantly it helps me work. And so on. Nothing offensive, nothing where the form interferes with the function. But cute bright colours cheer me up.
The Other Dawn* July 7, 2018 at 8:19 am I think they’re fine when you’re not client-facing. And even then it would depend on your industry; some are much more serious than others. I have a Post-it note holder that’s a cat (surprise, surprise LOL). I have a candy dish on my desk that’s a black cat and his mouth holds the candy. I have several small notepads that are cat-themed: one is shaped like a paw, one has cats walking across the top, and another is shaped like a ball of yarn. Oh, and another is rectangular and has ears at the top that come off the page. (These were all gifts from colleagues.) I’m not a fan of colored paperclips. Not sure why. I just never cared for them.
ratherquite* July 6, 2018 at 9:14 pm Does anyone know of a resource like this site, but geared more toward retail workers? While a lot of the information Allison covers is helpful anywhere, it’s also really, really office based and often completely impractical or inaccurate for retail.
Polly* July 6, 2018 at 10:24 pm If anyone is reading this far down: what would you count against a job applicant more, a poorly written cover letter or no cover letter at all?
Thursday Next* July 6, 2018 at 11:16 pm It depends on the job, but if a job posting explicitly called for a cover letter, the absence of one would signal inattention to detail/directions that would be a disqualified. A poorly written letter…well, for an editing, communications, or teaching job, I think it would be bad; for some other kinds of jobs, perhaps less so?
Kate Daniels* July 6, 2018 at 11:29 pm We get so many applications that either would probably remove the candidate from the pool. No cover letter signifies that the candidate is lazy, doesn’t care enough about the position to put in the effort, or can’t follow simple instructions. A poorly written one signifies that the candidate wouldn’t be a great fit when the position requires attention to detail or high quality work (I am in an academic environment).
Elisabeth* July 7, 2018 at 12:40 am No cover letter at all. My field relies HEAVILY on communications. New applicants get some really mixed messages about cover letters in my field, as well.
Chaordic One* July 7, 2018 at 12:54 am Depends on the position. For a position that does not involve much writing or communication, like say a retail or food service job for example, no cover letter (or even a poorly written cover letter) is no problem.
The Other Dawn* July 7, 2018 at 8:13 am Hmm. That’s a tough one. From what I’ve read here, it’s very much expected in certain fields, while it’s not in others. And good, error-free writing is much more important in some jobs than others. In the case of a missing cover letter, for me it would depend on whether or not the person applying is fresh to the job market. Based on everything I’ve seen posted here over the years, apparently colleges don’t do a great job of preparing a person for the act of finding a job (interviewing, resumes, etc.). If they’re looking for their first job, then I’d just assume they don’t know the norms and wouldn’t hold it against them. Unless the job posting specifically said to include a cover letter. That would be a point against them. I’d likely wonder about their attention to detail and ability to follow instructions. Now, if I can see from someone’s resume that they’ve been in the working world for awhile and there’s no cover letter, that would hold more weight, especially if the posting said to include one. As for a poorly written letter, I’m thinking that would actually be worse in my career field (banking), since I do a lot of business writing. A generic letter would tell me that they really didn’t put forth much effort and kind of phoned it in; they knew they needed to do *something*, so copied and pasted something off the Internet. Poor spelling and/or grammar would look bad, too, since they could have had someone proofread it for them and use spellcheck (yes, I know it doesn’t catch everything). Also, I’m very much attuned to bad spelling and grammar anyway, whereas some people don’t pay much attention to that.
Not All Who Wander* July 7, 2018 at 4:17 pm Poorly written without question. But that’s because I’m a fed and (at least in the last two agencies I’ve been with) cover letters still are very much not the norm because it wasn’t all that long ago that the application system didn’t have a good way to upload them.
I am who I am* July 8, 2018 at 9:05 am All of the above. It depends how poor, and in what way, and the background of the applicant. IE, a letter from a new grad where the grammar is fine but the content ridiculous (I’m thinking of the person who included a paragraph about how they were a great candidate because they were one of 15 rushees out of 75 to be selected to pledge a fraternity) is much less likely to get an auto-reject than one that has 10 years experience and horrible grammar.
I'm A Little Teapot* July 6, 2018 at 10:24 pm I start my new job on Monday! Yay! Hopefully this one is way better, though honestly, I’d be perfectly happy not working for another month or 3. Alas, bills must be paid.
Elisabeth* July 7, 2018 at 12:41 am Good luck!!! I would love to be able to take a mental break right now, but bills bills bills. I hope tis one is a better fit for you. I know first hand how mentally damaging a toxic workplace can be.
Elisabeth* July 7, 2018 at 12:37 am tl;dr: I know I have depression and anxiety issues, but I can’t get it out of my head that I got set up to fail by demanding too much. Now the actual long part: I work in a highly demanding, client-driven field. 6 months before I joined the current company I work for, they bought out another company, took on all their clients and then … everyone except the partners from that acquired firm left. So we ended up with 1/3 more clients, and just as many people, then after I came on board we lost 10-11 people in a six month period in a squad of maybe 26 people. I was told in no uncertain terms by a (now former) Manager at the firm that he could see a sinking ship on the horizon. Not to mention that the work of the firm was not up to Current Company’s standards and every single engagement is a nightmare. I got spooked by the (now former) Manager and found another job, for more money, 30 miles closer to home. It was a shitshow with my direct reporter being openly homophobic and me being warned not to bring my fiancee to events because of it. Because it WOULD negatively affect my career. After they gave me zero time-off during my stepdaughter’s open-heart surgery, I asked my old coworkers how Current Company was doing and was reassured it had seemed to smooth out and they’d started hiring a lot of people and actual interns. I agreed to go back if they matched my salary and allowed me the opportunity to work remotely some. My first six weeks back were a dream. I got to work with my favorite Manager and Partner on one of our really good clients. And then Hell Quarter started. I seemed to get assigned to run every single job that either A) never got finished last year; B) got finished 3 months late; or C) was run by people no longer at the firm and notably difficult clients. Back to back to back. All of them were with the most microscopic of MicroManagers and … I got behind. I won’t lie. I’m way behind, still, trying to struggle to put things together and none of my concerns being addressed. I’m just wrong about the communication issues with the Client, about the struggle with getting the correct documentation, about my staff not working or finishing assigned tasks. I’ve worked every single day for 2 months now, with another full weekend on my horizon, and I’m exhausted. But the most frustrating thing was when I finally vented to a coworker/peer that’s been there 5 years longer than me, he asked, “How long have you been a Senior here?” And I said, “Well, not counting my time at Other Company, 6 months officially.” That’s when it hit me. I had a single year experience when I was given entire projects to run. And in 18 months of starting my audit career, only 6 of them with the standards at Current Company, I was given 4 of our notoriously difficult and messy clients, one of whom threw a surprise mandatory project at us the first week of the engagement, in an industry I had never worked with before, under a reporting framework I’d never worked with before. I get that I tend to be capable of things, but is there ANY way of expressing this frustration and feeling like I’ve been thrown every single curveball with NO real support, without seeming like an incompetent buffoon? Or is this just how life goes, and I need to pull up my big girl pants?
Thlayli* July 7, 2018 at 3:42 am No this is not how life goes. It’s not normal to be expected to work 2 months in a row without weekends off – nor is it sustainable. You WILL burn out and collapse if you keep this up. You need to sit down with your manager and explain that you do not have sufficient time to manage this number of these types of projects. Make a list of the projects you have and a rough estimate of how many hours a week you are working on each. Tell (don’t ask) your manager that you are not able or willing to continue working weekends so you are going to drop back down to 40 (or 50 or whatever is reasonable in your role) hours a week for a while. Then pull out the list and show them how many projects you can realistically continue to manage in that time. If your boss tells you you have to figure out how to manage it, ask how – perhaps they expect you to delegate more and do less yourself, in which case you need to have to have a discussion about how your staff are not completing assigned work (are they also overwhelmed). Or perhaps they just do expect you to work this number of hours on an ongoing basis. In which case reiterate that you are not going to do that. You could use the phrase “if I continue working seven days a week for much longer I will burn out. I was willing and able to do it for a short duration, but it’s been 2 months with no end in sight, and I’m not physically or mentally capable of continuing this number of hours per week. If I do burn out then that’s not good for the company either as you’d be left totally in the lurch if I become unable to work at all. I’m trying to find a solution.” If your boss is no help, then prioritise your projects yourself and just work on the highest priority ones and let the others slide. Go back to working a reasonable number of hours per week. Every time you get yelled at, calmly reply – I informed you I did not have sufficient time to do all the projects”, and in your new downtime start looking for a new job.
Elisabeth* July 7, 2018 at 7:50 pm Today, I was actually kind of worried that I was just so in the weeds I couldn’t see reality for what it is. But my fiancee confirmed she cannot remember the last time I didn’t work an entire weekend. It’s not just me, at least. But it does underline how ridiculous this has become. I really, truly do not mind working 55-60 hour weeks for part of the year. I wouldn’t even mind, in industry, doing that for a monthly close. Because the rest of the time, a person gets to recover during the weekend. I started to work earlier today and I was so mentally exhausted that I fell asleep at my computer. That’s the stage we’re to. At this point, I’m working the weekends to finish a project that I got permission to let slide temporarily. But now has to be finished immediately. Because there’s never been and never will be a realistic timeline. I will say, when I review forums or talk to other people in the industry, from the top down, the issue is always that the budgets and timelines are completely unrealistic and unachievable. Truly, I just need out of this industry. I love the actual work components of my job. It’s something that I just inherently get and that can be something I feel really competent at. When I’m not being asked to fight against the current for months on end.
Chaordic One* July 7, 2018 at 2:31 am I can certainly understand your frustration and, under the circumstances, it certainly seems appropriate. You sound like you are seriously burned out. This is not how life is supposed to go and I don’t think you could possibly pull those big girl pants any higher. (Interesting fashion choice. What is it? Some sort of sleeveless, strapless jumpsuit with Capri-style legs?) I don’t understand the part about your staff not working or finishing assigned tasks. Do they seem overwhelmed with work and unable to finish on time? Or are they goofing off? Are these your direct reports? If so, they might need to be put on PIPs and you might have to replace one or more of them. I can’t imagine why HR (and your superiors) would not support you in this. If they’re not your direct reports, then document, document, document, every time they don’t do their work and don’t finish assigned tasks. (Yes, this is a PITA and yet one more task upon your already overburdened plate.) You are certainly not incompetent and you should not feel like a buffoon. However, I would be wary about exactly how to express your frustration to your supervisors. I don’t think that they get it. Perhaps your company really is a sinking ship. I don’t know. It is a fine line between asking for support politely (and then not receiving any) and escalating your request more firmly (and then being perceived as an unreasonable bitch). I think you need to start a stealth job search right away. Meanwhile, think about what support you need from your supervisors. Additional staff? More auditors? A change in some of your current staff? Then request that support. While it would be nice to receive some “atta girls” from your supervisors, I’m afraid that you can’t really expect that kind of support from most employers. They are just not good at showing appreciation or recognition meaningfully. Also, think about asking for a substantial raise and/or bonus. It really isn’t about the money, but it is about what the money symbolizes. If there isn’t any recognition of your contributions it’s like they don’t care. (And they probably don’t, but they really should make a token effort to give the appearance of caring.) How are your supervisors doing? The other people working at your level? Are they having to give up their weekends, too? If not, then you need to find another job. You might need to take some time off from your job to recharge. (Like at least one day of the weekend.) I don’t think you can keep this up for much longer and it’s certainly not healthy for you. If you don’t find a job right away, set yourself a quit date, and if you don’t have a job by that date, then quit. (If your company gives bonuses, wait until after you get your bonus, though, then quit.)
Elisabeth* July 7, 2018 at 7:45 pm No, no, big girl pants are like maternity wear. But the texture of spanx. They give you the support you need to survive this world. So the tiers are Staff > Exp Staff > Senior > Manager > Partner. I don’t have much to do other than let the Manager know, “I told them in no uncertain terms this HAD to be done or I HAD to be informed.” I think I can be a little bit of a ~cool leader sometimes, but only so long as everyone is pulling their weight. I think the real issue with my staff is that we all signed up for a busy season and they made plans for the summer. Like. we. all. do. One of them was planning a wedding, two of them are interns and are still in school and are limited to 40 hours, typically. There’s just only so much I can push and report to the Manager that I insisted that the work was to be done by a certain time. I’ve been stealth job searching on the DL. But it can be frustrating. I’m in a big city that is centered around one industry and I have no experience in that industry. And because I’ve been auditing private companies and Current Company doesn’t really specialize anyone, I have a bit of experience with a ton of different industries, but … not the one industry my city runs on. The other people at my level have moved onto Employee Benefit Plan audits, which are typically 2 week engagements that are extremely regulated by the DOL. So there’s no real questioning what has to be done or how to do it, or not covering something. But I do have one co-worker that I see most weekends when I go into the office instead of working remotely. We’re both frustrated and feel trapped. He’s started studying for his CPA, and at our firm, that’s frequently the writing on the wall. My supervisors are in a place where I will ask for guidance on something, explain my issue, let them know why I feel I can’t continue and frequently am told, “I don’t have time for this right now.” Then 4 or 5 weeks later when they finally get the review of the file, it’s, “Why isn’t this done?” Also, I’m discouraged from consulting my coworkers because they have to get their work done, too. So I’ve got superiors that are also drowning and have no time for long discussions about how to test something and I’m supposed to avoid hashing things out with a peer who may have more experience. At this point, everything feels like a no-win scenario and I’m honestly just biding my time until I can find a decent position elsewhere. I also think it’s time to finally give up the notion that I’ll ever enjoy public. I need to focus on one company and spend my time putting my best skills to use, which are process improvements that actually have results, instead of writing the same company up for the same exact “this isn’t quite bad enough to be a notable control deficiency” issue year after year.
chi chan* July 7, 2018 at 3:46 am I am a 26yo working a low paying job. This is my second one, without benefits and without upward mobility. So my problem is I have forgotten how to make decisions. The background is that fourth year of university was really tough. I got on an academic path that involved some extra coursework and some extra exams which would finish up in a work experience. I burnt out spectacularly. Looking back maybe I bit off more than I could chew and really ignored my own tiredness all year. Also my friends and I did some stuff and were disciplined by the college. That shook me badly. I resolved to really think before getting involved in future. At the beginning of this year I decided to leave that path and just get my degree and reevaluate. The alternative was to repeat the year of coursework. I do not regret my decision. I grieved it for a long time. Maybe if I had managed things better I could have made it work but perhaps it just wasn’t in me. I learnt that just because another human or classfellow did a thing, it doesn’t mean I can manage to do the thing simply because I am a human too. I would like your thoughts on this. When the crisis of the burnout came I felt as if all motivation just drained from me. Also I don’t know how to put this … faith in my plans drained too. Even those I have made in the year since. I would like to have faith in my plans but I sort of wonder if other plans won’t work out either. I question myself all the time and I don’t have confidence in my capabilities anymore. I’m also afraid of another burnout. And sometimes I think that though it’s been a year I haven’t healed. This isn’t the first time I have failed, but all decisions seem too high stakes now. How do people work through options and make decisions? Is there a template for this? A lot of advice seems to be to think of what kind of life you want to have or the future path you want to follow. I somehow feel I don’t have the courage to go through the future. I just feel tired. And I get the sinking feeling that I won’t get what I wish for either that is a job which will allow me to take a proper vacation, further training, good pay. I was wondering if opportunities even exist for me. Should you not overinvest in future career plans? How can you measure the appropriate amount anyway?
Utoh!* July 7, 2018 at 8:47 am You start by taking smaller steps, it sounds like you are overwhelming yourself so are hesitant to do anything and are completely stuck in one place. In order to gain back your confidence you need some quick wins. Break down into smaller pieces the steps needed to accomplish your goals and start atttacking them individually until you get back on track and start adding more to your plate. With that a world of opportunities will begin to open up for you.
Quinoa* July 8, 2018 at 5:03 pm It might also help to talk to a therapist who can help you address the confidence issues you’re struggling with. It sounds like your self-esteem took a beating and you need some assistance at putting the pieces back together. If your employer has an Employee Assistance Program, you might be able to get free therapy through them, and if not, there might be low-cost options for therapy through organizations where you live.
Mo* July 7, 2018 at 6:21 am I’ve been at my current job for 4 years and I am getting overwhelmed with the stress of the job. I think I’m close to burnout and I’ve been dealing with health issues that Im sure are from stress. My peers are constantly overworked and understaffed and it will be worse because someone is leaving. We’re hiring to replace them, but training is a long process so we will be understaffed for awhile. I’ve been looking to leave my job, but haven’t been successful. The industry Im in is notorious for being stressful so I’m not sure if I should even stay in my current field if leaving means just going to another stressful situation. The last place I worked was also extremely overwhelming. Looking for advice and also how do you go about dealing with job burnout when looking to leave?
Buu* July 7, 2018 at 9:48 am That’s hard, if you’re burning out vacation is good but I’m also aware vacation becomes sacred when job hunting. Have an ex-coworkers who are now happy? Perhaps ask them what their jobs are like in comparison.
dragon_heart* July 7, 2018 at 7:22 am A bit late to the party. To the HR people here, are overseas applicants really out of the question? I mean those that require sponsorship visas. I want to try my luck in the EU( I don’t care what country really) but as a non-EU citizen who can only speak fluent English ( I can’t speak any other EU language ) is this really just wishful thinking? I know that Trump tightened the H1B visa in the USA but how was it before? If your job ad says you sponsor the right people do you still mean that to be “we will consider overseas applicants only if we have to?” What if the ad doesn’t say they are open to non citizens? I don’t want to craft a cover letter and send a CV if there is no chance for me.
MissDisplaced* July 8, 2018 at 9:51 am I’m not an HR person, but I’m pretty sure this is near impossible unless you already work for a company that will sponsor you. I used to work for a small but global company. My manager was in the EU, and I was hired to work in US. It would have been hard if I wanted to go to EU under those circumstances, but not impossible. After she left, she had a position for me at her new company, but wasn’t allowed to hire from US. In addition, I have a friend who tried to stay in the UK after college, but she was unable to get hired anywhere. I’m sorry, but it seem really hard!
EA in CA* July 9, 2018 at 1:00 pm In Canada, the only way we can hire an overseas candidate is to prove there isn’t anyone else qualified within our hiring pool that could perform the role. We would have to apply to the government to allow us to hire and sponsor the overseas candidate and prove that within a reasonable job candidate search, we are unable to find someone to do the position. I know a few people who managed to get work overseas, but they are with temporary visas (UK) or had a spouse with dual citizenship that allowed them to relocate and gain work visas for that respective country, The Netherlands, in this case.
Maeve* July 7, 2018 at 9:46 am I volunteer to help run a non profit event in my creative industry I’ve helped to run it since it’s 2nd year and we’re now on year 11. It was a big part in me getting my job in said industry.The original founder of the event Joffery wasn’t great at organising stuff. Eventually I quit, a week later I get an email from another organiser Ned telling me Joffery quit and asking if I’d help again because Joffery had left such a mess it’d be hard to continue without someone else who knew how things worked, Ned assured me he’d actually handle the logistics I just had to handle Social Media and networking. I felt a little pressured but agreed, on the basis I’d be doing social media and advising a bit. Ned’s loud, loves being the centre of attention but misses details and would easily not recognise the name of a donor asking for passes to the event and reject them. So my role has taken on what I am starting to think of as emotional labour. So a few years have rolled by and the event’s grown, I got my industry job…and so did Ned. Ned’s also finishing an academic research project at the same time. So he frequently disappears for days on end and myself at the other organiser have to cover. Sometimes he fails to give notice and is unapologetic ” Well of course I was busy it was my wife’s birthday! We had a deadline etc” I totally get real life happens, but here’s the thing I am about to get really busy with work and don’t get the same consideration. Last time it happened I was away at a work event and will still getting mails asking me to do urgent stuff for the event, or I get told I need to help out with logistics. I don’t like doing that side of things, but have helped in the past. The attitude of both the other organiser is ” well we do it so you have to too!”. I nearly made myself sick with overwork. This is a volunteer thing, and I’ve tried to get additional help in but the other organisers don’t want too many people involved. It’s great Ned is doing so well, but it feels like he sees himself as more important as he has several kids and a big academic project. He may well put in more time than me, but I am just so tired! I don’t want to spend any more time on it, and especially not when Ned just assumes I will do a task. The event has been good for my career, and to his credit Ned has occasionally acted as a personal reference but I need help. I am happy to do the things I originally agreed to, if I can stop taking on more stuff and get some cover for when I am busy. I recently let the team know I could be called last moment to help in a project at work long hours possible travel. I won’t have time to tend the social media, let alone go through the e-mails to make sure Ned’s not ignored anything critical. Their response has been ” We’re all busy, you just have to”. I’m really upset at how disrespectful of my time they are. Social media is public, it could reflect on me badly if the event suddenly starts ignoring people but my current employer is in my industry I can’t even cheekily sneak in and check it during the day. Is there anything I can do? I have to admit I exploded a bit at them when they sounded indifferent. I’ve tried getting in more help, they don’t want to stop trying to give me work. Being involved is good for my career to an extent. but I won’t have time to do my part and my job. Ned got stroppy when I pointed this out, and said he won’t be able to run things forever. I don’t want to take over for him either! Anyone got any advice on setting boundaries? Should I just quit at the end of the year?
Kathenus* July 7, 2018 at 11:41 am I’ve been involved in non-profit volunteer organizations and can totally sympathize. Just like in paid work there are always the core, few, dependable people who do the vast majority of the work. And because you either care about the mission or just have a strong work ethic, it’s hard to let things slide or fail if others don’t do their part. But, your question is how to set boundaries. And it’s simple, but not easy. Basically you just decide what you will/won’t do, clearly inform the organizers and ask if this level of involvement or participation works for them or if you should bow out completely because taking on anything else isn’t possible. And then you stick to it. If they agree to your terms but keep giving you extra things, you professionally say you aren’t able to handle them, and continue doing the things you agreed to. Rinse and repeat every time. One statement really stood out to me from your post – I’ve tried to get additional help in but the other organisers don’t want too many people involved”. They can get more help, they are choosing not to. In part, because you (and probably a small number of other high performers) still do the work. Once that stops, by you setting firm boundaries and sticking to them 100% of the time, they’ll have an incentive to find more help or other solutions. But as long as you keep the ship afloat, they have no reason to change. Again – simple and straightforward strategy, but I understand that it’s not easy to do when you care and are a good worker. But you’re being taken advantage of and it won’t stop unless you change your behavior. If they aren’t willing to accept you in a more reduced role, then just say you understand but can’t commit to more so you’ll need to bow out of involvement in the event so they can find someone who can do all of those tasks. And follow through. Don’t let them guilt you into anything you don’t want to do, they will find another solution and if something in the event falls through because they won’t find another person to do it, so be it, it’s not the end of the world. Just do everything calmly and professionally, and either make this something you enjoy doing because it’s a role you can accommodate, or move on so it’s not just a stressor for you. Good luck!
Liar liar pants on fire* July 7, 2018 at 11:01 am I have a co-worker who does not work for my department specifically, but she is responsible for general tasks related to all departments. She has a history of not acknowledging or responding to requests, so I have taken to following up after a few days, adding her manager (who works in another city) as a cc (the manager had said in the past that if there were any issues, she could be contacted directly, as well). After the last incident of non-reply to which I followed up with a cc to her manager, the coworker claimed she had tried to talk to me in person, but I ignored her. This is absolutely not true. She definitely did not reply to my email, and the few times I saw her after I had made my request, she was carrying on extended personal conversations with others. Her manager believed her, and contacted my manager who defended me and basically said (very tactfully) that the coworker was lying and the root of the problem was a performance management issue on their side. So now I’m angry. And I want to out this woman’s incompetence. She relies on people from other departments to do her work, she’s late daily, she takes multiple smoke breaks in addition to her hour lunch, and she goes on long errands in addition to her prescribed lunchtime but gets other people to cover so her manager won’t find out. Re: lunch, she is responsible for deliveries, etc., so she is required to take her lunch 12-1, something that is spelled out in her position’s responsibilities. This includes 30 minutes in paid breaks, and 30 minutes for unpaid lunch (union rules). She’s only a term employee, but there is a chance she could become permanent, especially if her behaviour isn’t known to her manager. And she should definitely become permanent, not just because of what she did to me, but because she’s incompetent. Would it be wrong for me to snitch? And how would I be able to do it without seeming bitter (which I am, but I believe there is a greater good to be served, as well)?
Kathenus* July 7, 2018 at 11:46 am It sounds like your manager has your back. That’s the most important thing and I’d recommend not trying to point out any of the performance issues with this person that don’t directly relate to your work involvement with her. It could make you look like part of the problem, and since your manager believes and supports you, you are in a good place now and may not want to risk that by getting involved with things that don’t affect you. Just keep doing everything by email so there’s documentation, and maybe talk to your manager about the ongoing non-responsiveness and asking if they’d like you to cc them from the beginning, or continue to just do so if there’s a problem. Keep them informed of the problem and what you’re doing about it, and get any advice on things they’d like you to do differently, if any. Take the high road.
Liar liar pants of fire* July 7, 2018 at 11:20 pm Sigh! I know you’re right! My head keeps telling me to take the high road, but my inner 12-year old keeps telling me to let her have it! But given the emotional maturity of the average 12-year old, I suppose I really shouldn’t listen to her! My manager actually did report some of the issues other staff members on my team have had with this woman (none of which was reported by me). Whether the other manager does anything about it is up to her. And as part of the conversation, my manager provided the other manager with details on how our side would deal with issues going forward, and how she expects their side to behave, as well. This includes using emails, and I also plan to record conversations (single-party consent where I live) with her so I can have a cya if she ever makes false accusations again. My manager is completely and totally awesome! And also fair. If she felt I had been in the wrong, she would have told me so and dealt with me accordingly. An additional side to the story, I do know this woman has ongoing performance issues that are being monitored by her manager and team. That’s part of what really bothers me about this whole thing. I have never had any performance issues, and get along with almost everyone within the organization (and I’m one of the few who actually knows and talks with pretty much everyone in the organization, and people from other departments actually request my assistance when they need outside help). Yet instead of trying to get to the truth by hearing both sides, her manager chose just to believe her, likely in part so she wouldn’t have to deal with yet another problem with this coworker in any official way. But this woman is her problem, not mine. And if she does become my problem, at least my manager (and reputation) will be there to support me! Thanks for the comment! (btw, I had an editing error in my initial comment. It should have said “And she should definitely NOT become permanent, not just because of what she did to me, but because she’s incompetent.”
Mariella* July 7, 2018 at 1:07 pm Job dilemma! I got a job offer yesterday, but it comes with a few stipulations. The offer is for a small non profit admin type role. It pays 2K under what im earning now, but im currently Pro Rated so it is effectively an increase for me. But the offer comes with the stipulation ill need to learn and drive within 6 months of commencing. If i factor in lesson costs my income will be smaller for the 6 months then im getting now. Plus i have no idea if its possible within that timeframe or not. (+tax, insurance etc) Plus side, no more toxic job, after my second interview they cancelled the second interviews with all the other finalists within half an hour to offer me the job, so they really want me. But its just the driving/money side of it! I have to let them know by Monday. Also much more local which is good for me. Current job has given me more responsibility since last week since they found out i was looking.. which would put me in line for a promotion at current job… but its been 6 minths since they said they would do that. I dont know what to do.
Miss Pantalones en Fuego* July 8, 2018 at 9:14 am Any chance they will help with the cost of learning to drive? It can really be an asset to have a licence, especially if you are in a place where many people don’t drive. With good lessons it is absolutely do-able to learn in six months. I learned to drive from a combination of lessons and my parents in far less time than that in the US. I’m looking at trying to find an instructor so I can convert my US licence to a UK one right now. I wish I had done it years ago but I didn’t really need a car, but as I progress in my field it’s becoming clearer that it would be a huge benefit to me.
atexit8* July 7, 2018 at 6:17 pm Is using Uber an option so that you are not under gun about learning to drive in 6 months?
Adlib* July 9, 2018 at 9:01 am Not sure if this will be seen, but this happened today (Monday). The lady in the office next to mine is a friend of mine. I saw that over the weekend, her family got a puppy. Today she brought the puppy in. We are not a dog-friendly office. She literally had no plans for what to do with this dog during the workday, and her manager won’t let her work from home a lot and told her to bring the dog in. Puppies whine so I may end up just working from home (my boss is remote and doesn’t care) the rest of the week until the branch manager comes back from vacation and can stop this craziness. I was in no mood for BS this morning and definitely looked at her like she’s crazy so she knows I’m not thrilled since she “apologized in advance” via IM. I told her I’d just go home if the dog goes too crazy. I just…what are people thinking??? Oh wait, they’re not.