open thread – August 10-11, 2018

by Alison Green on August 10, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Peaches*

    Quick poll: do you say ‘bless you’ when your coworkers sneeze?

    This may sound trivial, but I’ve come to notice that none of my coworkers say ‘bless you’ when I, or anyone else sneezes. I always thought it was common courtesy, but perhaps not. I’ve worked here for almost three years and have always said ‘bless you’ when others sneeze, but now am wondering if I’m the weird one. For what it’s worth, all of my coworkers are nice, friendly people. They’re not jerks who are standoffish in addition to not saying ‘bless you’. I’m not totally outraged by them not saying it, by the way. I’m just genuinely curious what the expectation was!

    1. Audiophile*

      It’s a mixed bag in my office. Sometimes we’ll say it, but oftentimes it goes unnoticed.

      You’re not weird for saying it, but I also don’t think it’s weird not to say it. I’m in a 12 person department, I think that plays into it too.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      I say it!

      Part of it’s because it was drummed into me as a child growing up, but another part is I watched the film Dogma with Alan Rickman and there was a scene where the lack of a bless you nearly got a woman killed and that’s just really stayed with me.

      3. AngelicGamer the Visually Impaired Peep*

        +1 to the Dogma reason for saying Bless You. One never knows when a former angel is going to show up and want to kill everyone who doesn’t have good manners. As well as other sins. Just don’t run. :D

        3. Kathleen_A*

          Me too!

          On a side note, I participated in a one-day workshop one time that consisted of people from a bunch of different companies – maybe 35 people or so – collected in this meeting room to learn about a specific topic. A few knew each other, but most of us were strangers to each other.

          But this weird dynamic emerged in which whenever anybody sneezed, at least 2-4 people would say “Bless you” or some variation. Every time. So if someone in row 1 sneezed, strangers in row 3 and row 5 would call out “Bless you!” or whatever. I mean, right in the middle of the presentation. It was so odd.

        4. matcha123*

          Same here! And the first time I said it at a new office, my coworker turned and asked how I knew German. And that’s how I learned that he grew up in Germany!

      2. PhyllisB*

        This reminds me of one time in my teens I had a cold or sinus infection (can’t remember which) and I kept sneezing. My grand-mother would say “God Bless You!!” with every sneeze. Finally she said, “GOD BLESS YOU!! FOR THE REST OF THE DAY!!” We all cracked up, and that became a family thing if anybody sneezed more than four times.

      1. A person*

        In my old office I hurt myself trying to hold in sneezes or ran down the hall because I couldn’t stand the string of a dozen bless you’s in our cube farm. I hated it when someone came to work sick; the sneezing didn’t disrupt my concentration but the loud bless you’s did, every time!

        Then they moved my cube to the row where two people with allergies added “excuse me” after every sneeze to the line of blessings. That was the beginning of the end for me at that job! It was not a good work culture fit in other ways either.

    5. Xarcady*

      People here in my small department, where we all sit in a row in our little cubicles, usually say “Gesundheit!” when someone sneezes. It’s a very inclusive company, and “Gesundheit” or “good health” doesn’t have the religious connotations that “Bless you!” has.

      But I wouldn’t be upset if no one said anything when I sneeze–probably people are concentrating hard on their work or have headphones on or something.

      1. Jane*

        I don’t say anything after someone sneezes exactly because of the religious connotation. I would much prefer it if no one said anything to me either after I sneeze. But people seem to think it is rude. And I say this as a religious person.

        1. Ashley*

          The religious thing is definitely a consideration. A non religious guy always said Gazuntite when someone sneezed and that seemed to work. It acknowledges but doesn’t have any religious trappings.

        2. SJ*

          I say it but don’t even see it having any religious connotation anymore. I think it’s become so ingrained in society that it has just lost that.

          1. Specialk9*

            I don’t believe in God, but do believe in having gratitude for having been blessed, and I believe in blessing others. For me, if I believe in no deity, who can bless us but us? So it kinda feels like a humanist duty, if that makes sense.

          2. all aboard the anon train*

            But the origin has religious connotation, and I think if that makes some people uncomfortable, there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s like saying Christmas doesn’t have a huge religious connotation anymore, so people shouldn’t feel uncomfortable celebrating it. When things trickle into society that are inspired by religion but become more mainstream than pious, it still doesn’t make it any less of a religious connotation.

            The word bless alone has a lot of religious connotations, and I don’t think anyone can argue otherwise.

        3. AngelicGamer the Visually Impaired Peep*

          Agnostic here – I say bless you because it sounds nicer to my ear, not for religious reasons.

          1. Life is good*

            I say “bless you”. Once, I said it to a co-worker and another, really pious coworker corrected me and said “No, GOD bless you”! I shot back, “No, just bless you”. I was feeling snarky that day.

        4. matcha123*

          I had a coworker from an Eastern European country specifically ask me to say ‘Bless you’ after she sneezed. I might have said ‘Gesundheit’ and she either didn’t hear or didn’t know what it was and motioned for me to say ‘bless you.’
          I’m more of a ‘gesundheit’ type, but if someone has a preference for ‘bless you’ I will say it.
          I say this as a totally unreligious person.

      3. Heartlover1717*

        I also usually say “Gesundheit!”, due to family tradition; it’s more of a reflex and courtesy – not too wrapped up in what it may mean to the hearer. Folks usually respond with “thank you” (if at all), and we go on with our day.

          1. hermit crab*

            Yes, that’s my go-to. My Colombian relatives say a super-long “saaaaaaaaa-luuuuuuuud” that I adore (and it doubles as a toast! an all-purpose word), but I use a shorter version when saying it myself. :)

    7. Susan K*

      Yes, in some cases. If they sneeze while I am having a conversation with them, I do, but I don’t go out of my way to bless everyone who sneezes. For example, if they’re working alone in a cubicle, or in the same room where I am but having a conversation with someone else, I don’t. And if someone else says it first, I don’t say it again.

    8. Antilles*

      Yes, people say “bless you”.
      Only exception are the couple people who sneeze a LOT (I’m one, my boss is another); each of us don’t always get a ‘bless you’, presumably because nobody wants to say it 11 times a day.

      1. Jadelyn*

        This – once in awhile, yes. If my officemate is having a bad allergy day, I’m not going to say it for each one.

        1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

          At summer camp, we were told it was bad luck to bless the same person twice the same way in one sneezing fit, so there was a lot of “bless you! Gesundheit! Salud! Tag!”

          Eventually, we were told “don’t bless more than once at all, as you’re just embarrassing the person after the first, ‘Please don’t be dying.'”

    9. Murphy*

      If I’m with someone, yes. If I just overhear it (open office area) then no.

      I’m of the opinion that everyone should stop saying it, in general, but I recognize the social convention and the possibility of being seen as rude if you don’t say it.

    10. mkt*

      I only say it if I’m directly in vicinity of the person -like we’re in the same conversation, or they are near/in my cubicle. But if I’m at my desk and the person is more than a few desks away no I don’t.

    11. Amber T*

      One coworker will sneeze four times in a four – always, so I know to wait for that fourth sneeze. I won’t say “bless you” til that fourth sneeze. Once she only sneezed three times and was “offended” no one said bless you – we were all so shocked she didn’t sneeze a fourth time! (This is when we were open office and we were all joking about it. We also told her she needed to get her sh*t together when she sneezed a fifth time.)

      I once said “bless you” to a coworker and got caught in a 20 minute monologue about his sinuses and allergies. I no longer say “bless you” to him.

      A coworker once yelled “bless you” down the hallway at me while I was holding a hot cup of coffee. I didn’t manage to spill it on myself while sneezing, but his out of no where “BLESS YOU!” made me jump and I no longer had a full cup of coffee.

      I’ll usually say it if I hear it, but sneezes have become Typical Office Noises that I have learned to ignore (like the printer, various far away talking, footsteps), so unless you sneeze in my ear, I probably won’t hear it or acknowledge it.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Heh…my husband tends to sneeze in twos, so I usually wait until after his second sneeze to say “bless you”. He used to joke that he could die between the first and second sneeze and it’d be my fault.

        As to the original question, sometimes people at my work say it and sometimes they don’t. Doesn’t matter to me either way.

        1. Imprudence*

          My great aunt used to say, “once for a wish, twice for a kiss, three for a letter, four for something better”. I sneeze in twos, and will often say ‘two for a kiss’ afterwards at home. But not at work.

        2. topscallop*

          LOL my husband also sneezes twice in a row, every time, and when we’re around people who don’t know this I look like a jerk for not saying “bless you” until he’s done.

          1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

            They’ve apparently found the genetic code for “how many default sneezes.” Science is loopy!

    13. DataGirl*

      Usually at least one person does: if I hear someone else say it first I don’t, otherwise I do.

    14. Amber Rose*

      I don’t go out of my way to, but if someone’s nearby in line of sight I will. Other people around here seem to have the same idea.

    15. Natalie*

      I don’t, but I’m willing to accept I’m an outlier on this. For whatever reason it wasn’t drummed into me as a kid, and as an adult I started thinking about how weird it is to comment on sneezes specifically, out of all bodily functions.

      1. Positive Reframer*

        Maybe because sneezing can kill or severely injure you? That’s much less common with other things.

          1. Positive Reframer*

            It has triggered brain hemorrhages and heart attacks. People have broken ribs and backs, hemorrhoids and hernias are a thing too.

            2. Natalie*

              That… seems like a reach, honestly. We’re talking about people at least a couple of hundred years ago that hadn’t yet figured out they should wash their hands before surgery, but somehow detected an extremely rare connection between sneezes and heart attacks? In multiple cultures and language groups, at that.

              1. Magenta Sky*

                It’s rare, but yeah, it happens. A quick search on Google for “can sneezing kill you” produces about two million results. Most common injuries are burst blood vessels, eye damage, ruptured disks in the spine, cracked ribs.

                Suppressing sneezes can cause hearing loss, vertigo, injury to the diaphragm, and in extreme cases, brain hemorrhage.

                But it is pretty rare.

              2. Thlayli*

                Ive Heard that people say it because in the Past there was always a good chance someone could die from a bad cold, so saying bless you was asking God to heal them or to let them into heaven if they died.

              3. Mr McGregor's Gardener*

                I heard it was because sneezing was one of the first symptoms of the Plague/Black Death, so if you were sneezing a lot, you were going to need all the blessings you could get!

            3. LilySparrow*

              I have heard of that from severe coughing, like with pertussis or pneumonia, but not sneezing.

              2. Jennifer Thneed*

                I injured a rib from laughing too hard, too long, while watching TWO Margeret Cho concert videos. Took months to heal. It hurt when I laughed, and I like to laugh!

            4. SJ*

              I believe it’s holding a sneeze in that can cause those things. I DO know you can blow a lung by holding in a sneeze. It isn’t common at all but can happen.

            5. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

              Sneezing hasn’t killed me, but once I sneezed in such a way that I pulled a back muscle and was in major pain for several days. I’ve aggravated a neck injury a few times by sneezing.

              To answer the main question in the post, I say “bless you” when my coworkers sneeze, because I feel antisocial somehow when I don’t… but I think it’s an absolutely absurd practice.

        2. Adele*

          I believe the practice of saying “Bless you” after a sneeze developed from an ancient belief that the soul leaves the body when sneezing. I don’t remember if the “God bless you” is a fare-thee-well or a call-back-to earth to the sneezer.

        3. Decima Dewey*

          Depends on how you sneeze. If you’re the type that has a short “choo”, like a cat, that’s one thing. If you’re the type where the sneeze takes forever to come out, is loud enough to startle people clear across the room, and sends your head down toward your desk, it’s another. I’m the second type of sneezer.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        I’m usually on board with “X is a social ritual, not literal, so just do X”–like saying “How are you?” “Fine” even if your deep emotional state isn’t fine. For some reason with this one it strikes me as weird, like if we don’t actually believe your soul flies out of your body we don’t need to stuff it back with a “bless you.” If someone is sneezing from allergies, punctuating each one with “Health!” isn’t actually going to help. Neither does “I hope you get well soon” obviously, but that’s deployed rarely and specifically, for more serious cases of clear illness or injury.

        I think this might derive from my time overseas, when personal accidents triggered a phrase that translates as ‘Sweetly, white person!’ As with telling someone ‘Careful’ after they bash their head into something and are staggering around in pain, it is unhelpful.

        So I don’t often say it, but I won’t pretend that I can logically back that up.

        1. Natalie*

          It started to stand out to me when I worked in an office where people started to say “thank you” after a “bless you”. And then I heard at least one person say “you’re welcome”, and it just seemed so odd that we needed a three-line dialogue after an involuntary noise.

        2. Specialk9*

          “personal accidents triggered a phrase that translates as ‘Sweetly, white person!’”

          I’m so curious. Would you be willing to share more? That’s such an odd phrase! Did people only say it to white people, or was ‘white person’ a compliment for everyone, like the pinnacle of human existence?

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            “Doucement” is French for sweetly. “White person” was in a local slang (for a country with very few white people, especially outside of the capital), and somewhat between calling someone “tall person” (descriptive) and “dude” (you there).

            1. Dwight*

              I think there’s a little lost in translation… “doucement” usually means “slowly/carefully/gently/smoothly”. I think they meant “careful, white person”. Or maybe it’s from an entire different dialect that would say something like that.

      3. Hrovitnir*

        Yeah, I am the kind of person that says please and thank you almost to a fault, but was not raised with saying “bless you” so it feels weird. As an adult probably a bit more than half the people around me do it, so it can feel rude not to, but it’s also very unnatural and feels forced to me. I have been trying to teach myself to say “gesundheit” for the same reason as some others here; I really do not enjoy reciting anything with heavy Christian overtones.

    16. PB*

      I do, unless someone else says it, first. On rare occasion, I hear someone say “Gesundheit,” but “Bless you” seems much more common.

    17. Lentils*

      My coworker friend started saying “blessings!” awhile back and now most of us say either that or bless you when we notice somebody sneezes. I work with headphones on though so sometimes I just don’t notice lol.

    18. Lemon Sherbet*

      I don’t say it because I think it’s kind of silly (and the religious aspect). If I sneeze in a way that’s disruptive, like during a meeting or whatever, I will say “Excuse me” afterwards, the same as I would do for a coughing fit or a rogue burp. No one says “Bless you” after someone coughs or belches or farts, which as far as I’m concerned, could let your soul escape just as much as a sneeze.

      1. Jane*

        Exactly! A polite “Excuse me” afterwards and then nothing else happening. No need to make a thing out of it.

      2. formerSGartist*

        LOL… Agnostic here, couldn’t agree more! I dislike this ‘non-optional social convention’ so much that I’ve found a way to stifle sneezes (press tongue hard against roof of mouth) so I won’t have to endure hearing it. I also pretend that I’m distracted/concentrating whenever anyone near me sneezes. The only time I cave is if someone is sitting next to me.

    20. louise*

      I wish sneezes were as politely ignored as loud bathroom body noises are in public restrooms. It’s just part of something we all do. If someone needs a tissue after a particularly rough sneeze, I politely and silently offer one if I’m nearby, but otherwise, I wish we would all pretend they are invisible.

    21. ScotKat*

      I have a colleague who blesses *every time* and I cannot stand it. I don’t want to be blessed and I don’t want people to keep drawing attention to the fact I sneeze. I sneeze a lot, and it soon becomes ridiculous to keep hearing ‘bless you’. I wish I could never hear it again, to be honest.

        1. ScotKat*

          Oh I really hate it! Why does anyone care if I’m sneezing? And then you get the people who comment on it, like ‘oh, do you have a cold?’. No, do you never just sneeze? Then I feel I have to explain why I have a normal bodily function. Now I’m quite short with those people, because it’s been years and I can’t take it any more… haha.

          1. Lumen*

            Or the people who think that me sneezing more than once in a row is a personality trait that is suitable for conversation fodder. No one in this current job, thankfully, but plenty other places have made a ‘thing’ out of ‘how much’ I sneeze.

            Ugh.

        2. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

          I thought I was, too! A social ritual that basically boils down to “You did something potentially embarrassing AND I SAW!” is not one that I like.

          I recently had a professor who would make a huge deal out of people sneezing, and it was just so annoying.

    22. Lumen*

      Everyone who sneezes in my general vicinity gets a chorus of ‘bless you’ or ‘god bless you’. And when I say ‘chorus’ please don’t think I mean a chipper round of it. It’s a bland, perfunctory, sometimes even whiny-sounding thing.

      I absolutely detest it. LOL

      I generally don’t like people commenting on my involuntary bodily functions anyway, but knowing that I’m going to hear half a dozen “bleeeess yoooou”s every time I sneeze drives me up the wall. I actually try to suppress sneezes sometimes. And I don’t comment on other people’s sneezes (for all I know this means my coworkers think I’m a horrible jerk, but no one’s seemed upset when I don’t join the chorus).

      It’s not something worth bringing up or being rude about, since it’s just a pet peeve and it IS considered courteous, but… can we trade offices?

    23. NotaPirate*

      I had a coworker ask me politely to stop saying it to them. They have bad allergies and sneeze a lot and found the bless you’s disruptive.

    24. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Someone will usually say either “Bless you” or “Gesundheit” when someone sneezes around here. (The difference is mostly in how many of your ancestors immigrated here from Germany in the 19th century.)

    25. gecko*

      In my office, if you overhear someone sneeze from across cubes, you don’t say “Bless you.” I like it that way; with cubes or (god forbid) an open office, the illusion of privacy is a very thin veil. It kinda breaks it when someone reminds you, “yeah, I can hear everything.”

    26. k8*

      i’ll say ‘gesundheit’ even if no one else does– i’d feel weird just letting it go unacknowledged!

    27. ThisIsMyNewUserName*

      YES – my reason is kinda weird… I mean, I do it because it’s nice and the proper thing to do, but …
      There’s a scene in the movie “Dogma” where Ben Affleck and Matt Damon are smiting all these horrible corporate people, and leaves one lady who has actually led a pretty good life. Except Matt goes “But you didn’t say ‘God bless you’ when I sneezed!” and Ben has to stop him from smiting her, as well.

      So I always say “God bless you”, just in case, and so that Matt Damon won’t smite me and Alanis Morisette will let me into heaven.

    28. Lissa*

      I don’t, because I am fighting against this social convention, lol. Not really but kind of…when I sneeze I often will sneeze 9 or 10 times, and it drives me crazy when people will keep saying it to me during. Just let me have my allergy attack in peace! I realize that I am the unusual one, but I don’t really get why we say it.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Agreed with others that I don’t say “(God) bless you” for the religious connotations, but I will throw in a gesundheit if I’m with someone who sneezes. Overheard sneezes from down the hall may or may not get an acknowledgement (mine or anyone else’s). I generally sneeze once or twice at most (not a serial sneezer), but I can understand how someone who has an allergy attack would find it off-putting to have someone blessing them multiple times, esp. while they are still going.

        Weird story: recently, I sneezed while I was IN THE PROCESS OF SNEEZING ALREADY. I thought my head was going to explode.

    29. LadyByTheLake*

      I say “Gesundheit” if I’m right next to the person and it’s a single sneeze. If they have a cold or allergies I’m not going to say it every time, and I’m not going to say it unless I’m right there. That said, it is usually in a murmur, not enough to interrupt the flow.

      1. bunniferous*

        I live in the South and you say bless you because that is what is expected….but just wanted to note for the nonreligious, God is not the only one who can bless someone. People can bless each other (with a meaning of providing them with something good or desirable, not necessarily invoking the Lord into it.) In other words, just wanting something good for the other person.

        Or you can say nothing if that is your preference. Social conventions are weird, but they are what they are.

    31. Positive Reframer*

      Recently I sustained a back injury while sneezing, apparently its a pretty dangerous activity. I try to say it when I hear it, but as long as someone does, not everybody need to IMO.

    34. C Average*

      I always say “bless you.” I have ever since the first time (of many times) I watched the film “Singles” back in the ’90s. There’s a key plot point involving the saying and not saying of “bless you” post-sneeze, and it’s always stuck with me.

      I loved that film so very much. I still occasionally listen to the soundtrack on road trips. It’s like a time machine.

    35. Goya de la Mancha*

      Since two of us in our office have bad allergies and sneeze a lot, it generally goes unnoticed. It’s not weird to say it, it just would get to be a little much if our office said it after one of us sneezed multiple times per hour/day.

    36. Elisabeth*

      I think it’s a cultural context thing. I’m in the Bible Belt and most of my from the Bible Belt with Christian or other Christian adjacent backgrounds say it. It’s not the same for my co-workers from different background or even just different parts of the U.S. I do think because of location even people from different backgrounds expect to hear it and just say thank you.

      It’s literally a knee-jerk reaction for me even though I’m not and have never been religious because of years of living in small towns where I would be seen as odd for NOT doing so.

      1. Sylvan*

        +1

        Not religious, probably wouldn’t say it if I lived elsewhere, but this habit has been pretty well drilled into me.

    37. Batty Twerp*

      I say it, but I tend to wait until they’ve finished, because no one in my office sneezes just the once – they usually come in bundles of three. And the fourth one is followed by “once more with feeling”, or “finished? good. bless you. again.”, etc.

    38. Jennifer*

      Mine mostly don’t but they don’t like me anyway, so….
      I really don’t care. Your soul isn’t actually leaving your body when you sneeze really….

    39. jukeboxx*

      My office is chock full of blessers, but until recently we had a head blesser that would do the honors every time. She quit about 2 weeks ago and now one sneeze and the blesseningchorus is absolutely deafening. Sneezing chaos.

    40. Recreational Moderation*

      According to my late mom:
      One sneeze means love is coming into your life.
      Two sneezes means money is coming your way.
      Three sneezes means … you have a cold.
      (I think of her and smile every time I pass along that information.)

      Also, my usual response when someone sneezes is “Salud!” (“Health!”)

      1. London Calling*

        My mother once sneezed 21 times in a row (her record – she was an epic sneezer). What does that mean?

        1. Recreational Moderation*

          Oh, my gosh. I think that means she gets to retire the trophy!
          Apologies if it sounds like I’m making light of your mom’s episode—that’s definitely not my intention.
          I would admit it only in an anonymous forum such as this one, but I actually find some satisfaction and maybe a touch of enjoyment in a couple of sneezes in a row. But 21? Yikes. That’s a lot of sneezing. I send best wishes and the hope that your mother came out of it okay.

    41. Marion Ravenwood*

      Yes, but generally only to people I’m sitting close to. I do tend to wait a few seconds after the sneeze though in case there’s more than one! I would say ‘gesundheit’ to avoid the religious aspects, but I’m British and anything other than ‘bless you’ isn’t really the done thing here.

    42. Crylo Ren*

      I don’t say it because I’m pretty sure most of my coworkers would be offended by the religious connotations. (We have a disproportionate amount of Catholic-school alumni on my team.)

      However my coworker will say “Salud!” when someone sneezes.

    44. Allison*

      I might say “bless you” occasionally, but as a constant sneezer (allergies, yes I take medicine, it helps a lot but doesn’t make the sneezing stop completely) I really don’t need a chorus of it every time I sneeze, so I’m really okay with people not saying it at all. Also, if someone’s gonna say it in this super tired, annoyed “I’m just saying this because I have to but ugh I hate saying it” tone, I’d rather they not bother.

      I also kind of dislike a lot of social conventions that require a person to do a thing for me, which I really don’t need or particularly want them to do, but it requires me to smile and say something sweet in response, and if I don’t, I’m a bad person. So I play my part to be polite, so the person doesn’t feel put off or get angry, but I’d rather the whole thing just not happen at all, especially if it’s a total stranger.

    45. Book Badger*

      I know most people do, but I don’t. I have very bad allergies and sneeze a lot, so not only am I feeling embarrassed for sneezing at all, but now someone’s pointing it out! Sometimes multiple times! Gaaaaaah! So I don’t do it for other people for the same reason I wouldn’t want it done myself: do you REALLY want someone calling attention to your sneezing?

    46. KayEss*

      I’ll say it if someone sneezes while I am face-to-face with them in a conversation or a meeting, but I don’t like saying it if it’s someone in another cube or office sneezing. It disrupts the social illusion that cube walls are impenetrable barriers of privacy.

      I had a boss who would get shirty if she sneezed in her office and didn’t immediately hear a chorus of loud “bless you!”s from all of us out toiling in the cube farm, and I really hated how petty and controlling it was.

    47. Achoo!*

      I’m the office sneezer in an office where most folks are from a culture that doesn’t respond to sneezes, so when we have someone new or someone in temporarily from another location and they say, “bless you!” it startles me.

    48. LilySparrow*

      I do, when it seems appropriate:

      If we are already in conversation, but not in a meeting or working on something that requires concentration.

      If we’re in sight & speaking distance of each other and working independently on things that don’t need a lot of focus (like filing).

      I wouldn’t say it over a cube wall – that’s like I’m monitoring them. And I wouldn’t say it in a meeting or if they were so far away I had to raise my voice.

    49. Lora*

      I say Gesundheit. But my own sneezes are usually not recognizable as a sneeze to other humans, so I rarely get it back.

    50. Jen in oregon*

      1st sneeze — “bless you”
      2nd sneeze — “BLESS you!”
      3rd sneeze — nothing
      4th sneeze –nothing
      5th sneeze — “oh for crying out loud, pull yourself together!” (I am a nice, compassionate person, so this is always met with a laugh) followed immediately by “Can I get you anything? Tissues? Water? Benedryl?”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I read this way too fast and not all the letters on the last word. I thought that was very different of you to offer them a BEER and wouldn’t that make them sneeze MORE?

      2. London Calling*

        ‘5th sneeze — “oh for crying out loud, pull yourself together!”

        Or ‘knock it off, now you’re milking it.’ I once had a dreadful cold that had me sneezing so much that I told the colleagues who kept saying bless you to say it once and I’d take it as read for the rest of the day.

    51. Admin of Sys*

      (I actually had someone do the sign of the cross on me while I was having an allergy attack in a thrift store – they said that after sneezing that much I needed more than just a ‘bless you’)
      I usually default to ‘bless you’ but will sometimes follow it up with a ‘by whichever deity or lack there of you desire’ – but that’s mostly a throwback from my Erisian college days. If someone is sneezing a lot though, I usually just ignore it. ‘Bless you’ is more a response to the unexpected disruption – it’s a social convention to imply I’m not bothered by the interruption and wish the sneezing person well.

    52. The Other Dawn*

      People in my company typically say it, as do I; however, where my cousin lives, no one–IRL or at work–says it. Ever. It’s just the regional culture there. She said she found it really rude when she first moved there, and still isn’t fond of it after 25+ years, but she’s gotten used to it for the most part. She still says it, though, even though no one says it to her.

      My husband says ‘gesundheit’ since he’s half German.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I think when it’s pressed into you since birth, it really feels odd when people don’t say bless you. The first time I was around such a group, I thought wow, people here don’t care, holy crap. I think the thing that bothers me is that we (society) don’t wish each other well often enough. “Bless you” seemed to fill in some gaps.

    53. Ladylike*

      I’m not comfortable saying it, for no particular reason. I have no objection to the phrase, or “blessing” people in general…I just always feel awkward about it, so I don’t say I. But I do thank people who say it to me, and I’d say it’s pretty common in my area.

      1. ChaufferMeChaufferYou*

        Yes you said it exactly. I’m not comfortable with the phrase, but lots of people around me do it, so I do thank them.

    54. Yorkshire Rose*

      Sometimes. It depends on how many people I can hear on the phone or not. I don’t want to disturb their phone calls.

      Also, I had a co-worker who was a Jehovah’s Witness and they don’t believe in saying it, so for a while I got in the habit of not saying it and not expecting it, either.

    55. Jaguar*

      Weird. So many people claim to do it. I don’t say anything after someone sneezes unless I’m joking around with the person, in which case I’ll say something like, “Whoa, look out.” Most people I know don’t say anything, either (although, I just might not notice it).

      I consider sneezing like coughing – something completely neutral that happens with no need to say anything about. But some people here seem to think that “bless you” provides a social function of some sort (relieving social tension, maybe?), which is foreign to me. Can anyone help me out with an explanation? Maybe I’ve been rude this entire time or unwittingly letting people stew in embarrassment or something.

      1. only acting normal*

        My family used to say “Cough it up, it might be a gold watch” for coughing fits… makes “bless you” for a sneeze seem perfunctory!

    56. ChaufferMeChaufferYou*

      I do not. It’s always been weird to me to acknowledge an involuntary bodily function.

    57. a*

      I sometimes do, sometimes don’t. My coworker and I have allergies that cause us to sneeze frequently and her to sneeze repeatedly. So, it’s too much. Everyone else…if I notice, I might say ‘bless you.’ But I don’t pay that much attention.

    58. Jessica Fletcher*

      I say it if the person says it to other people. Right now, I generally say it to my coworkers. Another coworker recently left the organization. She was Mennonite and didn’t say “Bless you,” I think for religious reasons. So I didn’t say it to her, because I figured she didn’t like it.

    59. Student*

      I say “Gesundheit!” to people I’m directly interacting with if they sneeze. Mostly out of habit and because I was taught it was polite, like saying “excuse me” or “pardon me” if you bump into somebody accidentally. It’s a shorthand for “sorry you’re sick, hope you get better quickly.” But, that’s pretty much the literal German translation.

      I was taught, and I’m a bit surprised that I don’t see anyone mention it yet, that “Bless you” specifically came out of a superstition about souls leaving the body when you sneeze. Blessing the person was supposed to keep their soul trapped in their body. Maybe I was taught something really wrong or really local – is that not the origin of the phrase, that specific superstition?

      Some of the Christians I got to know in adulthood taught me “Bless you” was actually a borderline sacrilegious thing because it’s based on a superstition that is a nonsensical interpretation (maybe satire?) of the soul mechanics that they actually believe in. I’ve always avoided it since, because I thought it was both a strange superstition and potentially actually offensive to my religious colleagues. Sounds like it’s actually expected and considered polite in the US South, which is an extremely different take than that. Maybe it has to do with specific Christian sects?

    60. GrossNegligence*

      I don’t say bless you because it has religious connotations and I am not religious.

    61. Vodka Quiet*

      Yes. There are three of us in one room, so it’s not very frequent or disruptive.

      There used to be one coworker elsewhere in the company who sneezed a *lot* and eventually after one particularly loud sneeze, I sent him an IM saying “Bless you! <- applies to all future sneezes." And then I never said it to him again.

    63. Lcsa99*

      I work in a pretty isolated area (I’m at the reception desk) so I really only say it if they are physically close enough at the time. And then not always. If it’s one of those people that sneezes 20 times a day I often won’t. If it’s an exceptionally enthusiastic sneeze I will. Once the mail man sneezed in the elevator so loudly that I could hear it from my desk so when the elevator door opened several moments later I said bless you.

    64. Someone Else*

      If I say anything, it’s Gesundheit. If someone else says that (or bless you) before I do, then I say nothing. Or if someone sneezed sort of in the middle of their own sentence but then continued, I don’t interrupt them to say it. I just let them continue because it seems less fluid to do otherwise. Or if I’m far enough away from someone that I hear the sneeze but would need to be overly loud for them to heard me, I don’t bother (which is most of the time). I don’t really notice if colleagues say anything to me when I sneeze, but I don’t really care so it makes sense it doesn’t really register.

    65. Girl friday*

      I usually don’t say anything. It’s to ward off evil spirits and I’m more interested in warding off germs. Either Gesundheit or bless you is correct. I just think it’s odd to acknowledge a sneeze.

    66. Easily Amused*

      At my last place, whenever the guy next to me sneezed, he would immediately say “Ah, bless me” so I figured he had himself covered. No one else there ever even acknowledged a sneeze and it felt odd to me but I didn’t find the group as a whole to be warm. At my current place, a few people will say something (we all sit in one room) and I find people to be much friendlier generally.

    67. Miss Displaced*

      Depends on proximity? Like, in a meeting or at a table I would likely say it, but out in the cubicle farm, probably not. Kind of a privacy thing, not to mention you’d be saying it all the time.

  2. Claire*

    I’m wondering if anyone has advice on having a “big picture” career trajectory type conversation with their supervisor? My boss and I have generally really good rapport, but I’m hoping to have this kind of conversation with him at our check in next week. My position was newly created when I was hired 3 years ago, and I work for a very flat organization, so I’m hoping to have a candid conversation with him about if/how he sees my position growing or changing moving into the future. Any tips or advice on how to bring this up and tactfully ask these kinds of questions?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I find that if what I want is more money or a new title, I need to have that title or precise amount in mind when I go into the conversation, because otherwise I end up saying “more responsibilities” and the boss thinks, “oh I can throw a few new tasks at her, and that’ll be new and interesting. Like instead of just doing green widgets, she could do the green and orange widgets (for no new money or title obvs), and that would be a real win win.”

      1. Claire*

        Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately I’ve already had the “more money” conversation, which didn’t pan out. New title is also a tough ask when my organization is really flat and has very specific guidelines for title changes (usually after 10-15 years in and a tenure-like packet of work is submitted, but people stay in the same role with just a small title change & salary bump)

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Hmm, I guess I would only mention to that, at least in my experience, your boss is probably never going to TELL you that, in order to advance, you have to leave the organization – but that is very common in a career. When you reach the top, and there’s no short-term path, and they’ve denied you a raise, it’s probably time to look outside of your current org for your next move. It can be a killer to stay too long because at some places, they’ll never keep up with the salaries you could command externally. Also sometimes it’s a real win for your boss to have someone overqualified working at a lower salary and title and not realizing they’d be a manager or director somewhere else. So yes, talk to your boss, but also look at your own situation with self-interest.

          2. Jerry Vandesic*

            I agree with Lil Fidget. Your boss does not work in an organization that supports long term career growth and development. Having that discussion with him is going to be difficult, and could backfire if he thinks you are not a fit for his organization.

            I’d suggest finding someone outside your company but in your industry to act as a mentor, and have the kind of discussion you want with them. One of the things you should include in your discussion is whether your currently employer is giving your what you need for your career, and whether you need to look for something new.

      2. Kinder gentler manager*

        Going to add something to the feedback you are already getting – as a manager when an employee frames a conversation like this as “what do I need to do/work on/improve to be ready to move up” it is a much better conversation. It shows me right off the bat that they understand this is a long term picture, that they may not be ready for a promotion immediately, and are invested in their own path. It’s my job to create the path and guide them along, and an engaged partner makes it much easier and more successful!

        1. Claire*

          Thanks, I really appreciate this feedback! Super helpful. I guess my bigger question is how to frame that when “moving up” isn’t really a thing in my organization? We’re such a flat organization that I’m not really sure what moving up would even look like for someone in my role, which is why I’m looking to have this conversation.

    2. Susan K*

      I think good managers usually have this kind of conversation during performance reviews. At my company, that is actually a standard part of the performance review, and there’s even a space for it on the form. Since your company (or at least your manager) apparently doesn’t do it that way, maybe you could ask during your next performance review or even a periodic one-on-one (if you have those). Does your manager ever give you the opportunity to ask questions or provide comments during your review? If so, that would be a good time to say, “Actually, I would like to discuss my career progression,” and go from there.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Our company does this too – on the employee input part of the review document, there’s questions about 1-2 yr, 5 yr, and ultimate career goals. The intent is that your supervisor, knowing where you’re trying to go, can tailor their assignments in that direction or try to get you cross-training in the areas you’re interested in.

      2. Claire*

        Yes definitely, our reviews happen annually in the beginning of the year, so i’m looking for ways to approach this conversation outside of that context in a more general one-on-one (since I don’t want to wait until next year to have it).

    3. gecko*

      I’m always in favor of stating up front what conversation you want to have and what your expectations are. It’s a transition into a conversation where it’s tough to think of a natural segue, and it lets you set the tone.

      So in your case, I might say, “I wanted to talk with you about another thing—my long-term career here. I’d like to ask your thoughts on this and have a quick conversation.” Then you can ask your first question. Maybe, “Is there room for me to be promoted?” or “Is there room for me to advance without being promoted?” And then you’re in the conversation :)

      Be prepared with what you think the consequences of the conversation might be. For instance, if your boss says, “there’s absolutely no future for you,” you could say, “ok, I can see myself staying longer if I can learn a new process” or something.

      You can do it! It’s an important conversation.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        I am in the process of having this conversation with my boss (mine was a newly-created position several years ago), as a result of having demonstrated a track record of successful programs and accomplishments. I think you need to say what it is you want (title, responsibilities, have some idea of what the pay bump may be) and ask your supervisor to comment on the feasibility of this AND the timeline/expectations for it to go forward. Demonstrate the value it will bring to the organization/mission/clients, etc. Helpful if you can point to either increased revenue (beyond the cost of promoting you) or increased savings (ditto).

        They may be perfectly happy with you in your current niche, and there may be no plan for promoting you (unless you become a Subject Matter Expert, if you’re not already). In that case, as gecko says, you may have to be prepared to move out to move up.

    4. nd*

      Agree with gecko, and want to add that you should be clear on what you’re looking for. Do you want more money and a promotion? I know you said it didn’t pan out last time you talked, but perhaps you could get a timeline for one or the other, or both.

      Or do you want to grow in terms of adding to your knowledge and skillset? If so, be specific what you want. Also, are you able to identify areas in your company where you can help out and grow? If so, mention that. This is the approach I have taken in the organizations where I have had successful growth- I saw a need and was able to step in and help out. Usually, the money and promotion came shortly after.

    5. Some kind of anonymous*

      I was going to post about this myself! Same exact situation, even down to 3 years (or will be 3 years next month).

    6. Fantasma*

      You’re just where I was about 6 months ago. Then I went to a career Q&A panel and got great advice from the executives who spoke. They advised everyone to create a simple personal development plan (you’ll find tons of examples online). The PDP should cover what specifically you want to achieve at the company/in your current role on various timelines and what specific skills you want to build and/or learning opportunities/resources you want to take advantage of (classes, conferences, mentorships, short-term assignments, etc.). Your PDP should include what success looks like for you in all of your areas of development — make it goal-oriented.

      I did that and used my PDP to have a frank conversation with my then-manager, who told me that my role didn’t have that scope. It was disappointing but I appreciated at least knowing. So I started looking internally — the benefit in a flat organization is there are often more chances for lateral moves. Within about a month, I’d narrowed it to a few options and took the role that offered the kind of growth I wanted.

      Here’s how I framed the conversation with Former Boss: “Since I’ve been in my role about 3 years, I’d like to talk about what growth looks like from my perspective, keeping in mind our team’s goals. Here’s a PDP I made with some professional goals I have for myself for the next couple of years. Could we talk about how these could fit in with growth areas for the team? And if these aren’t aligned, we should talk about that, too, because I hope I’ll have your support in finding a role that would be a better match.” Former Boss and I could talk pretty candidly to each other, and he did try really hard to offer options but ultimately there was not enough scope to ever get promoted in that particular role and that was one of my goals.

      One thing to note: In previous career conversations we’d had that weren’t structured around a PDP, he had said there was growth but once we had everything on paper we both realized that we literally hadn’t been on the same page. It all worked out, and I enjoy my new job a lot and know it has the right growth potential for me in the future.

  3. Sunflower*

    I’m wondering if I can ask for extra $$ for taking on a boatload of work while my bosses position is being filled. Since I wasn’t promoted, I feel like I don’t have grounds to ask for this but it feels like the only thing that might keep me a little bit sane in this time.

    For the past year, I’ve been performing well above my job level. My boss was recently let go and when I compared our job descriptions(they are totally different), there are only about 5 things in the 55 items that I do not already do. At my review last month, I was not promoted and basically told I need to work on my consistency and attention to detail and my grandboss would put me up for mid-year promotion. I am so overwhelmed with work now (right before my boss, it was announced that the other person on my team was changing teams so I’m really alone) that there’s no way I am going to meet my goals addressed on my last review. Before my boss left, it was already known that our team is lean with the 3 of us. My boss’s job is posted but they don’t have any quality candidates in the pipeline.

    It feels pointless for me to even care about work since I feel like my work the last year was really overlooked(my grandboss even noted during my review she didn’t realize how much I do). And even if I do the best I can, there’s no way things aren’t going to fall thru the cracks with the amount of work on my plate.

    I would like additional monetary compensation. I am non-exempt so I do collect OT for my time worked but I really feel like I was working well above my level before and now I’m basically doing my bosses job with no one to flow work down to for support. While my grand-boss may be project managing the flow of the work, I am the one doing all of it. I am job searching but I’m also changing cities so leaving isn’t possible for a few months.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Maybe extra money won’t be possible but see if you can get other benefits like a few extra PTO days or something.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        PTO is useless when there’s no one to cover the workload.

        1) Ask for a team mate to be hired asap
        2) Review with the grandboss, at least monthly, the list of things you are doing, and the list of things that are not happening because there’s no time and no second person.

        You have a management problem. Make sure management knows the impact of their lack of action.

    2. Monty's Mom*

      Is there any way to have another conversation with grandboss about your review and goals? Explaining that you really want to focus on your goals, but it is impossible while covering so many other duties might get you a reprieve for that, at least. As for monetary compensation, I don’t know how to work that in. This sounds overwhelming, so I hope you are able to catch a break somewhere! Wishing you the best of luck in this situation!

      1. nd*

        Agree with this. Talk with the grandboss about achieving goals and keeping up with day-to-day. Ask for help with prioritizing.

      2. uranus wars*

        This was going to be my advice as well.

        More money will likely come with a higher expectation for results but with the same unmanageable workload. Focus on how the additional tasks are taking away from your own ability to do the job correctly, framing it as “I’d like more money” likely won’t get the long-term result/promotion desired.

    3. Antilles*

      I kinda doubt it.
      1.) Putting in extra work temporarily in a short-term crunch is typically just part of the deal in most jobs. A good manager will keep this in mind when reviews and raises/bonuses come up, but it’s just the general deal.
      2.) You’re also non-exempt and getting OT pay. Presuming OT works the usual time-and-a-half, they’re going to look at this as “wait, I’m already paying you extra”.
      However, you *are* fully within your rights to grab your grandboss and discuss the overall job. If you’re overworked because you’re doing the work of 3 people and think you won’t be able to handle the specific items/goals you agreed upon because of that, you absolutely should be proactive and flag it. Then you listen very carefully to how he reacts:
      >Maybe he tells you that he understands and says that by handling so much, he’s going to put you up for promotion anyways.
      >Maybe he doesn’t realize just how much there was, so he takes some of the responsibilities off your plate or perhaps he just says that some of the 55 items aren’t actually important and tells you to ignore them. Lightens your load a little.
      >Maybe he just doesn’t care at all and tells you to figure it out…which doesn’t solve your problem, but is a pretty clear indication that you need to focus more heavily on your search because you now know that your grandboss is going to blame you in six months for “failing to improve in the areas we discussed”.

      1. nd*

        I tend to agree with this. A lot of manager jobs include many, many non-management tasks, and I suspect that is what you’re doing. Those remaining 5 out of the 55 items may be the ones that distinguish managers. But you should talk with your grandboss about your workload and ask for help with prioritizing.

    4. Lil Fidget*

      My personal rule is that if I’m covering for someone for less than six months, I have to just suck it up and hope that it gets remembered in annual review time (I will bring it up at annual review time, I mean remembered monetarily). If it’s more than six months though, I’d better get a sense that a raise/promotion is headed down the pike if I’m doing sustained higher-level work at the same old salary and title. Otherwise, you can get caught out really easily doing director-level work for an assistant’s pay – and without even the title, you may not be able to leverage the experience into a new position.

    5. Bea*

      You could request a bonus of some type for your work increase. This may be easier for them to do because you’re not supposedly going to be doing all the work when they do fill your bosses position. So a raise is a permanent solution whereas a bonus payment is an acknowledgment of a one time ordeal.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, at two different (non-profit, even) employers I have on three different occasions received spot bonuses because I had temporarily taken on extra responsibilities — twice when my bosses were unexpectedly unavailable and once, last summer, when hiring for my vacant admin position took longer than expected and I was doing all the admin tasks on top of my usual ones. That last time I was really not expecting anything because it wasn’t an emergency like the first two, but my current org is great about recognizing those things.

        I will say I am non-exempt so I don’t know how overtime will affect how your bosses see the situation but I think it is worth asking.

    6. BRR*

      My employer offers temporary raises for this sort of situation. Maybe you can ask for that? I would also talk with your grand boss now about your goals. Let them know that your goals aren’t aligning with what was set and the situation changed.

      1. Susan K*

        Yeah, I’ve worked at places that do that. It might be a good idea to check the employee handbook to see if that’s a thing where you work.

      2. Ennigaldi*

        I have this too – if you are covering a higher position for more than two weeks, you get paid 10% more for that time.

    7. Rex*

      Sunflower, I’m actually a little concerned about what you’ve written here — if your grandboss thinks you have problems with consistency and attention to detail, and you don’t expect those things to improve, I think you’re going to have a very hard time getting a promotion or raise. It sounds to me like you need to do a much better job making sure your grandboss really understands the volume of work you’re doing, and that you’re both on the same page about which has to give — quantity or quality. You don’t sound like you’re on the same page right now, and that is a problem.

      1. BRR*

        I was concerned about that as well but then was not sure with the LE being put up for a mid-year promotion.

        1. Rex*

          I interpreted that as an “IF you bring up your performance, we will revisit a promotion in 6 months” convo, but I could be wrong.

      2. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

        This is was stood out to me too.

        I agree that you (Sunflower) deserve a raise, however I can’t imagine it going over well based on the current circumstances. The Grandboss does not seem to understand the magnitude of the work you’ve taken on and has issues with your performance. In your defense, it sounds like the Grandboss’s issues with your performance are NOT an accurate assessment of the situation (it sounds like it’s quite reasonable that your consistency and attention to detail have slipped a bit as a direct result of taking on large quantity of additional work – reasonable managers will understand this), unfortunately though, Grandboss does not seem to see that.

        If you look at it from the Grandboss’s perspective (even though their perspective might not accurate/fair, they’re the boss, so it is what is) – what would you think if your employee asked for a raise if you don’t think their workload is that crazy and you just had to speak to them about a lack of consistency/attention to detail? It would look pretty out of touch.

        Again, this sucks, and I totally agree that you deserve a raise, but I think you would probably be better served focusing on making sure grandboss understands the entire scope of your role and working on fixing their perception of your accuracy/attention to detail before asking for a raise.

      3. Sunflower*

        My review was a bit awkward as it was compiled by my boss who was let go for performance issues and my grandboss went through it with me- she disagreed with that part of it (it was clear in my review that my old boss had zeroed in on a one time instance that we had thoroughly discussed previously and magnified it throughout the review). In last year’s review, my grand-boss said she thought I suffered because of having a bad manager and that this year would be different. So I was pretty disappointed that it felt like that happened again.

        I didn’t address this in my comment but at my mid-year check in last year, my boss and I spoke about my attn to detail and my boss was clear that it wasn’t an issue and any occurrences were very minor, it was just something I could improve on(in fact, it said in my review that it was improving) so when that was given to me as the reason I wasn’t promoted, it seemed like a BS excuse rather than they had minimized the issues in the first place.

    8. Lizardbreath*

      It sounds like you Have some pretty basic development areas to address (“attention to detail”) so making a case that you are performing “well above” your level doesn’t really make much sense. You’re already making overtime for the extra workload, which is, well, extra pay. I’d recommend focusing on the basics in your development plan-attention to detail and those types of things are fairly standard expectations and shouldn’t be things that fall through the cracks just because you’re taking on additional work. This seems like a great opportunity to prove you ARE ready for
      Promotion.

      1. LCL*

        It’s Friday so I can be as cynical as I want, so here it is-this is a game management plays with their high performers. High performer does excellent work, learns the job and is given extra duties, inevitably something falls through the cracks, management uses this as an excuse to keep high performer exactly where they want them. OP is already doing most of what should be the boss’ duty. And OP is being told that the company is looking for a replacement for boss, but shucks, they just can’t find any qualified candidates. They’re probably not looking very hard, because they’ve got OP to do OPs job and boss’ job. Lack of attention to detail is a bullshit phrase used when someone has more work dumped on them than can be reasonably done.

        I don’t know much leverage OP has with this company. Pointing all of this out to them may get them to give OP a bonus, or extra vac days, or they may tell her to hit the road.

        1. Anon for this*

          Yep, been there. I spent 3 years covering the work of my boss’s two deputies, and kept getting told that I would be promoted but they just had to find space (despite the fact that these two people were refusing to even come to our department but would only work in the main department). Eventually I left because it was clear that they would never promote me, even though I was doing the job already.

    9. Legal Rugby*

      When my boss left, and they asked me to take one half of her duties, I got about an 8k bump/year, which they will pay me until 2 months after the new director comes in. That was unsolicited. I think its work asking.

    10. Thlayli*

      I think you should have a conversation with grandboss where you say something along the lines of the following:
      1 you were told if you performed your own job really well you would be promoted (assuming all the goals relate to your own actual job)
      2 you are currently doing your own job, your bosses job (and your coworkers job if I’m reading that right?) And it’s just not possible to do your own job really well while doing the other jobs too
      3 you see three possible options:
      1 you stop doing the bosses (and coworkers) job altogether so that you can concentrate on doing your own job really well and get your promotion
      2 you are officially given the bosses job along with a suitable increase in salary and title
      3 you get a temporary increase in salary while you continue doing the bosses job until that role is properly filled
      Tell grandboss outright: “I’m not comfortable continuing to do both jobs especially since it’s been made clear that the work I’ve done for bosses job won’t be taken into account in me getting a promotion. If all that matters for promotion is the work on my own job, then that’s clearly all you want me to do”.

  4. Foreign Octopus*

    So something I was thinking about this morning.

    A few years ago when JK Rowling published her Cormoran Strike series under Robert Galbraith, someone working for either the publishing house or her agency leaked the fact that she was the author to the press and was fired.

    How would they even begin to explain that in an interview? It seems like in every job they would go for, in the industry or out of it, that’s a hell of a thing to explain away. Does anyone have any ideas?

    1. SoCalHR*

      Yeah, that’s a BIG deal… to me (not even being very well versed in the publishing world) that would be akin to someone working in finance and stealing money, or a celebrity nanny selling pics of the kids – major violation of the position.

    2. MuseumChick*

      The only way you could go about it think would be if it was an accident (I don’t know how it could be a accident but I don’t work in that industry) and express extreme mortification and regret. Even then I think your chance of getting a job would be extremely slim not just because of leaking information but also because of the power, popularity, and respect that JK Rowling holds for many people.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      As someone with some knowledge of the publishing industry, I’m not 100% sure if it was “leaked” the way government stuff is sometimes *wink-wink leaked.* The publishing house made a LOT more money on that book once people knew JK Rowling had written it.

      1. MissGirl*

        I worked in publishing, and we valued profitable authors to the point of putting up with A LOT of diva behavior. This publishing company would have to be huge fools to do anything to jeopardize a relationship with JK Rowling over the profits of one book.

        I believe it was one employee who had more to gain. And he would definitely need to find a new industry to work in or build a freelance business under a pseudonym.

        1. Anonymosity*

          I promise, if I ever become a profitable author, I will not be a diva.*

          *Test me, universe. ;)

      2. Cousin Itt*

        Same, I think the leak was real – but that her identity would have been purposefully revealed at some point. I think the alias was originally used to fend off the type of scrutiny and criticism The Casual Vacancy got, but once the book had positive reviews the leak worked in their favour, proving she could write something apart from Harry Potter and getting positive press for the whole ‘I want to stand on my own merits as an author not just my name’ narrative.

      4. many bells down*

        The Strike novels are *exactly* the kind of detective novel I regularly search for on Amazon and yet it never came up once in my searches until it was revealed that Rowling was the actual author. So I can see why they might have wanted to “wink wink” leak it.

    4. Purple soda*

      I always wondered with big errors like this, is it feasible for one to not inform the interviewer of what happened? Or would that constitute a lie (which would result in termination once discovered?)

    5. CTT*

      I think it was actually one of the lawyers for the firm used by her or her publisher, which is even more disastrous for one’s career. I don’t know how it works in the UK, but you can get serious professional sanctions in the US for breaking client confidentiality.

    7. karou*

      It was one of her lawyers, who was told his wife’s friend, who later tweeted about it. He was fined and rebuked by the Solicitors Regulation Authority for breaching confidentiality, the firm was sued by Rowling and they had to pay a bunch of damages (I believe that mostly went to charity). You can Google the whole story and his explanation. I have no idea what the lawyer is up to now, but his name in all the articles and that history it would probably be very difficult to explain away!

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          Disclaimer: everything I know about law firms I learned from The Good Wife and Suits.

          But I’d imagine cutting loose a partner, particularly if he’s named or has equity, is somewhat more challenging than firing a regular employee.

          1. Bagpuss*

            It depends. In out partnership agreement we have a provision which allows us to vote out another partner, but it has to be unanimous. (and then then are paid out their equity the same way as if they retired), which in our case is in instalments, not in a lump sum.

            If the SRA had considered his offence serious enough to strike him off (I think the equivalent in the US is disbarring?) then probably the firm could have got rid of him on the basis that he was no longer able to perform his role.

            (My view when it first came out was that it wasn’t a stunt, because client confidentiality is such a big part of our professional standards, you’d be a lunatic to risk your career, there would be other ways of leaking it if they’d wanted it leaked just then)

      2. hello fellow publishing people*

        Yup, that’s what I remembered! I will say that as someone who works in publishing, big info gets leaked all the time, but it’s to close publishing friends over dinner who certainly aren’t going to go to the papers about it. Or it’s an “inside publishing” sort of open secret, but everyone knows to respect the formal announcement’s timing. Good gossip is worth something in your inner circle, but just about almost publishing news is incredibly boring to anyone outside the industry so there’s just not the attitude of taking it somewhere.

        But yeah, if you publicly broke the news or leaked a hot manuscript widely (this is the big risk with new assistants, actually, or that they’ll be careless and get hacked or whatever even if they just shared with one friend) then yes, that can really mess up your career. I don’t know of anyone who has done that, though.

    8. Ama*

      I think you’d have to be very candid about how it happened and what you had learned from it so that it wouldn’t happen again (although that would maybe not work as well if say, someone sold confidential information to the press rather than just happened to mention it to the wrong person).

      I worked at an org once that hired a CEO who had had to take the fall at her previous job for a big mistake her previous employer had made (if you are in the U.S. you would definitely know what I was referring to if I said where she worked). So of course when she was hired the entire staff knew who she was and where she had come from. In her first staff meeting she said she wasn’t going to eat up staff meeting time telling the entire story, but that she had told the Board the full details in her interview and was happy to do so to anyone who wanted to discuss. I really think it was her willingness to talk about it (and also her awareness that not everyone would want to sit through that) that eased a lot of people’s initial wariness about her leadership.

    9. Creag an Tuire*

      Somwhere a few years ago there was a question like this (it was about the conductor who dozed off on the job and crashed the Blue Line train into an escalator — thankfully nobody was killed).

      IIRC the response was basically: “Yeah, if you’ve messed up badly enough to end up as a headline, you should probably plan to switch careers.”

      1. LJay*

        I think the discussion here though it that this would have pretty overreaching repercussions for a lot of careers.

        The conductor could take a job in retail or something like that were there just isn’t driving involved anymore.

        For this you’ve pretty much shown that you’re willing to use personal/private information for your own gain, which is pretty limiting in most jobs. In retail – are you going to steal people’s credit card numbers to hurt them, in health care are you going to improperly access PHI, in a corporate position are you going to reveal strategy decisions to your competitors? etc

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Eh, there are all kinds of people out there. I am often surprised by how many people are willing to give others second, third and fourth chances. By way of example, a person I know committed X (Felony Crime) at work. After the legal stuff got settled, Person found a new job. This person committed the same type of X as in the previous incident. All the legal stuff got processed again. Time passed and the person got a third job. Annnd Person committed X again.

          I am impressed with the people who were willing to hire Person. We have that section of people who are willing to offer a person a chance to turn over a new leaf. It could be that the person making the offer has a similar story to tell and understands the importance of putting opportunity out there. And sometimes it works. I think when it works it’s no one factor it’s several stars being in alignment.

          A story we can relate to here is credit card guy. This is a person who racked up a huge bill on the company credit card. The stars were in alignment. The guy wanted to make it right. The employer was willing to try to work it through. The story ended very well for everyone.

  5. Susan K*

    I’m a decent home baker. I wouldn’t make it on the Great British Baking Show (even if I were British), but I’d say my baking is above average. I occasionally bring in treats for work — I’m talking a couple of times per year. I’ve brought cupcakes for department parties, Christmas cookies, and a cake one time.

    Even though I don’t bake all that often, I have somehow become known for my baking. I’m guessing it’s because I’m a private person and I don’t share much about my life, so this one thing has become my defining characteristic. Last year, I got baking gadgets in the Secret Santa gift exchange because my Secret Santa asked around about what I would like, and apparently, the only thing people knew about me was, “Susan likes to bake.” People sometimes make comments, like when we get a grocery store cake for someone’s birthday, they’ll say, “Too bad it’s not as good as one of Susan’s cakes,” even though it is.

    For some reason, one of my coworkers has been going around and telling people in other departments about my baked goods, and I’ve been getting accosted by people I don’t even know, who demand (in a joking way, but still uncomfortable) that I bring in baked goods for them. One guy offered to pay me to make cookies for him — and this is someone who hasn’t even tried any of my baked goods to see if he likes them, so he’s going solely off of what my coworker told him! I have no interest in selling my baked goods because they are really tedious and time-consuming to make, and making them to sell would not be worth my time and effort. I make them a few times per year for friends/family/coworkers, just as a nice treat for the people in my life.

    All the attention on my baking actually makes me not want to bring in treats. It’s a lot of pressure, and now I’m afraid that if people try my treats after hearing so much hype, they’ll be disappointed. And I really don’t want coworkers I don’t even know demanding baked goods. What do I even say to these people, for example, when I call someone with a work question and they respond, “I want cupcakes!”? I know they mean it in a nice way, but it’s getting weird, not to mention the gendered implications of being known for my baking rather than my work.

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      Maybe say that you’d be happy to bake for them if they paid $X/dozen, possibly a price that’s just high enough to be unreasonable? That will get the message across and call them out for being entitled to your free labor.

      1. Blue Eagle*

        I would
        – just say that baking used to be my hobby but now I __________ (fill in the blank with whatever else you enjoy),
        – stop bringing items I baked to work, and
        – bake only for friends and family.

        I would stay away from quoting a price because either someone will take it the wrong way and will call you a ___ for charging so high a price or they will actually want to pay it and BINGO! you are in a baking business that you do not want.

      2. Thlayli*

        work out how long it would take to make whatever they’re asking for and the ingredients and ask for an amount that is your hourly rate for your actual job plus the ingredients cost. That will probably be high enough to make it unrealistic and it’s what you would actually need to charge to make it worth your while. For me it works out at about €10 a cupcake. You can work out in advance how much you would have to charge per cupcake or per cookie or per cake and whenever people ask you can say “I make them as a hobby when I feel like it. If I was to make them as a job I’d have to charge €10 a cupcake, so it’s not a feasible business and so I don’t bake to order. Now tell Me about the llama nail varnish.”

        Repeat until they get the hint.

        Also – it’s a human trait to home in on the info you know about a person. If you shared some other info about your life outside of work people might put less emphasis on the baking.

      3. formerSGartist*

        I made the mistake once of using the office copier to enlarge one of my stained glass designs. My co-worker immediately asked if I’d create one for her, saying she would pay for the glass. Most (including her) have no idea of the cost of lead and beveled glass, or the amount of labor involved using the centuries-old leaded method (not copper foil). I declined as politely as I could, telling her I had several I was already working on, and that each took months to complete. She seemed insulted, and our working relationship soured after that.

    2. Daisy Avalin*

      I’d be tempted, the next time you get stopped by someone asking for baked goods, to ask them what on earth they’re talking about! When they act confused, explain that you have once or twice brought in baked goods for your team, but you are not a baker nor do you supply baked goods on demand. Furthermore, even if you were inclined to bring in treats more often for your team, you would not provide them for people you don’t know!

    3. Mockingjay*

      I would stop bringing baked goods entirely. Save them for friends outside work and family.

      If asked (or demanded) by coworkers, “Oh, I don’t bake anymore. I’m into rice sculptures these days.”

      1. Friday*

        +1. Time to stop baking for your coworkers. Be known for being awesome at your actual job, not your baking skills. And you should probably tell that one coworker who is promoting you as The Baker to knock it off.

    4. HigherEdPerson*

      LOL, I get that too (but not to that degree).
      I would say something like “Oh, don’t we all want cupcakes? I’m taking a baking hiatus for right now, but thanks for thinking of me!” and then just bake as you want, but don’t bring it into work.

      And if someone requests an order from you, tell them “That’s very nice of you to ask, but baking is just my hobby. I only do it when I have time, and that’s just not possible right now.”

      Also, can we geek out together over fav baking cookbooks? Dorie Greenspan’s Baking is my go-to baking bible. I adore it.

      1. Susan K*

        I get most of my recipes online because I hate to spend money on cookbooks when I can get recipes for free. Dorie Greenspan’s recipes are great, though — I have used her cheesecake recipe several times and it is always perfect! Maybe I will put her cookbook on my wish list.

    5. MusicWithRocksInIt*

      I am also a baker! I brought in treats to my old job fairly frequently. If anyone ever bugged me about it I would usually ask them when the last time was that they brought in something for everyone. Not in a hostile way, but in the same light and jokey tone they are trying to use on me. You could also try “I bake for fun, but when people demand I do it it’s less fun” (also said lightheartedly) Or “Wow, that’s a lot of pressure, and let me tell you I do not bake well under pressure” Or “I’m sorry – I usually only bake in small batches so I only bring enough for my department, but there is a great bakery over in next town over if you want to buy something for your department”. Just remain light and jokey tone as much as you can. If they keep pushing go more serious and say something like “You are kinda making me uncomfortable right now, please stop asking”.

      1. Key Lime Pie*

        That’s more or less what I did when I started getting not-really-joking-demands for pies (“How about doing some baking this weekend?” “Oh, I was hoping you’d bring pie like last Friday.”) Just saying I didn’t have time didn’t take, so I made some not-really-joking comments like, “Wow that’s a lot of pressure over baked goods!” and then finally, “It’s only fun for me if it’s spontaneous, so every time someone demands a pie, it gets bumped out two weeks.”

    6. NotaPirate*

      Start talking about another hobby at work? It won’t stop the existing baked goods pressure but would make it another thing to know about you and dilute the effect.

      1. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

        As both a baker and a knitter, I can say that my experience is that coworkers knowing two hobbies will actually increase the discomfort. Not only will you be asked to bring in cupcakes, but folks will offer to pay you “generously” to make a blanket for them by giving a figure that will barely cover half of the necessary yarn.

        1. Windchime*

          I’m a knitter and a quilter, and I get the same thing. When I wear a sweater to work that took weeks to knit and cost over a hundred dollars’ for the yarn alone, I always get hints about how they would love a similar sweater and hey, I could *sell* those!

          I only knit or quilt for people I love, or for charity. I never charge for it, and the only way I could imagine selling a knitted or quilted object would be for a charity raffle. Not to a coworker who I barely know.

          1. Jennifer Thneed*

            I don’t get that shit very often, happily. But when I do, I ask people what they think I should charge for the garment in question.

            They’ll probably name a store-made price, in which case, “but this is handmade”, which lets you also talk about hours and how much yarn costs (note to everyone: nobody knits to save money. Not possible anymore). If they’re a little smarter, they’ll offer to buy you the yarn, but you can still talk about how much time it takes (while wondering if they really understand what the yarn will cost).

            For those who REALLY don’t get it, I tell them how many stitches the garment contains. For some reason “it took me a month” doesn’t make the same impression as “I made 15,000 stitches”. And so many people don’t believe that a pair of socks has as many stitches as a plain sweater.

            (Someone once asked me how long it takes me to make a pair of socks. But it’s so variable! I have some that took 10 months because I took a long break. Or because they were the project I carried around and did 2 rows every so often. I have at least one pair that took just over a week – because I had 2 hours of bus commute every day and good books to listen to. And it matters if they’re plain or fancy too. Plain socks I can knit without looking at my hands. Those go fast.)

        2. sheworkshardforthemoney*

          Hey, I bake and knit too! We’re getting into the time of year that people start to put in requests for hand made goodies both edible and hand knit. For knitting, I usually look at the pattern, I stick to hats and sweaters and figure out the cost of the yarn and my time and name my price. Most people balk which is fine, my days of providing a free service are over.

    7. Purple soda*

      You really have some really entitled coworkers. I also had a couple of great home cooks as coworkers, and while it’s a joy and cheers all round when they bring their goods, I can never imagine straight up asking them to make things. Much less coworkers I barely know!

      1. Susan K*

        Yeah, no kidding! I almost wonder if the coworker who has been telling people about my baking has been leading them to believe that I love baking so much that I am looking for people to eat my baked goods, and they think they’re doing me a favor by volunteering.

    8. Celeste*

      This reminds me of something I saw on a knitting forum:

      Sex is like knitting. If I like you and you appreciate it, it’s free. Otherwise, you couldn’t pay me enough.

      1. Susan K*

        Haha, that’s a good one, and it goes for baking, too! I’m not going to say that at work, though :)

    9. I See Real People*

      This is how my side hustle baking business got started! It’s nice if you have time on the side.

    10. gecko*

      This is your coworkers wanting to relate to you & talk to you, and being annoying about it.

      What I’d say is, continue to refuse while matching the tone of the request, and change the subject so other people have something to talk to you about.

      Coworker: “I’ll pay ya a fivespot per cookie! Haha!”

      You: “Haha, no way! You should spend that five bucks to get 20 cookies at Costco! Anyway, some kinda weather we’re having, huh? It messed with my hiking schedule this weekend…”

      Or on a different tone, someone goodnaturedly saying…

      Coworker: Doesn’t measure up to one of Susan’s cakes :(

      You: Thanks! Those are a once-every-couple-year event, so please do think of them fondly ;) I’m so sad to see Fergus retire, though…

    11. Independent George*

      At first I thought your coworkers were just trying to bring you out of your shell, but it took a weird turn when coworkers you didn’t know were asking for baked goods. That’s weird. If it were me, I would probably stop bringing treats, but I’m not sure that’s good advice.

      I will say I do work with someone who competed on a baking show, and I will definitely restrain from asking him to share his talent at work especially after reading your post. I just don’t know him well enough to do that.

    12. Emily S.*

      Remember that you don’t owe anyone baked treats. i would suggest that, the next time someone requests treats, say you’re trying to eat healthier and encourage otters to do the same… thus, you’re not making treats anymore. (They don’t need to know about your private baking for your family/friends/etc.)

      If you go this route, (obviously) make sure you’re not posting photos of baked goods to any social media accounts that any coworkers follow.

        1. Belle of the Midwest*

          Nothing wrong with promoting the health and well-being of otters. They’re cute critters!

        3. Gloucesterina*

          “For the health of otters, I’m getting more into abalone/clam-type things, and we all know how we feel about heating up fish in the office!”

    13. WellRed*

      Stop bringing in baked goods. Also, watch the episode of Friends where Monica’s candymaking talent gets known and out of hand with the neighbors. You’ll relate.

    14. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      Susan – we are the same person. I like to bake, it’s fun. I’ve been told I’m pretty good at it but I’m not a professional. Here’s what I do:

      People who want to pay me: Sorry can’t do! Liability issues, allergies, no commercial kitchen, I have a cat, ect. ect. Shut that down fast.

      People who keep begging: This is hard, I’ve had to go cold turkey before, and just cut off my office. I find it typically helps to make things structured. Only for meetings, only for birthdays, only for holidays.

      1. Em*

        I think most people don’t know that once you start selling baked goods, you are a commercial kitchen and thus have to follow the industry regulations. Where I live, that means you cannot bake in your home kitchen – it has to be a separate kitchen. Plus I’d want to have insurance. So on the rare occasions that someone suggests that I sell my baking, I say “sounds good, but I’d have to charge $10,000 for the first one”.

    15. It'sNan*

      Every year, about October, I start getting requests for caramels and peanut brittle which I only make a Christmas time. I just gently remind them that they are a once a year treat, and they will show up when they show up. I’ve had people ask to pay me to make them extra, and I tell them I simply don’t have the time with the holidays. You can just say no; they’ll be all right.

    16. JustDessert*

      I specifically do not bake for birthdays or holidays so nobody expects anything. It is always random and at my whim.

    17. Angela Ziegler*

      I used to make interestingly decorated cakes for my Bible study group. After a while they seemed to start taking it for granted, so my friend and I hatched a plan. We made a cake-shape out of cardboard taped to a platter, covered it in chocolate icing, and added dabs of whipped cream and cherries on the top. “If you come to Bible study tonight, there will be cake!” We promised everyone via text.

      Everyone showed up as usual. Some of the guys started impatiently circling the cake, ready for someone to cut it. I handed the knife to one of them. He quickly discovered the knife just slid back and forth on top of the cardboard. Disbelief and disappointment quickly spread as they found out the cake was, indeed, a lie. They also appreciated our baking efforts from that point forward.

        1. Angela Ziegler*

          It looks like I didn’t convey this well in my post- It actually went over well as a joke! We were a close-knit group, so everyone laughed it off and accepted they were bamboozled. (Except for one poor guy who stood sadly off to the side, going “…So there’s no cake…?” And we apologized to him, promising cake some other time. The poor guy!)

          And while I’m in the south, I guarantee it wasn’t passive or aggressive in any way. (Especially when we actively said ‘And that’s why you should appreciate when you get cakes!’) Everyone found it funny because it was so absurd, in addition to the video game reference most of them picked up on.

        1. Angela Ziegler*

          Oohh, good to know! Making the fake cake was far more entertaining than it should have been, I’ll have to remember that. :)

    18. arjumand*

      I feel you should definitely stop bringing in baked treats to work.

      That’s step one. Step two would be ignoring any and all requests for cookies etc. If these requests are made in person, the best response is a quizzical look, and the question “Was there some [work thing] you wanted?”
      It’s even better if you can recruit someone from your own department (not the guy who’s been acting like the town crier, seriously, what is wrong with people) to ask, as the cookie monster walks away, “What was that all about?” Then you can shrug and say, “No idea. Now, about [work thing].”

      You treat the person who responds to a work question with “I want cupcakes!” the way I treat a weird/nonsense question from one of my students: with great patience, and a deep sigh, you repeat the work question. If the cupcake demand is repeated, you can always counter with “And I want a million dollars / a fancy car / a mansion; but hey! Now, about that work question . . .”
      What I wouldn’t do is engage in any long-winded explanation of the baking, and how it was only for a special occasion, etc etc – the secret here is: don’t engage. Use the rule of three: if after three work questions you still can’t get an answer from this really annoying person, end the exchange with “I guess you can’t answer my work question, I’ll have to go somewhere else.”
      Once again: don’t explain. Don’t narrate. Use the broken record technique.

      Now, about why this is happening:

      “I’m guessing it’s because I’m a private person and I don’t share much about my life, so this one thing has become my defining characteristic.”

      I actually don’t really think this is the reason, but let’s say it is – what you can do is create a different defining characteristic, one with nothing tangible for your cookie/cupcake grubbing colleagues to demand. Develop a sudden interest in Game of Thrones, or Westworld, or any other pop culture thing of the moment. Buy a few Funko Pop figures and display them on your desk. Just enough to distance yourself from the Baking Betty persona people have saddled you with .

    19. LCL*

      ‘I’ve found that Safeway/QFC/Costco sells excellent baked goods. Or if you want something really special, go to local boutique bakery.’

    20. Snack Management*

      I’m known at my work for baking and sometimes have run into variations of this. I like having a reputation for baking at work (if I’m honest) and I like having a place to bring extras to (my household is small, we can’t finish a whole batch of cookies every time) so even sometimes it’s irritating, I don’t plan on stopping. Not wanting to bring stuff due to the weird pressure and the gendered implications are a valid reason to stop or put it on hiatus. I think your concern on the quality not living up to the hype probably won’t play out that way; if you’re like me and other bakers I know, your standard for your own baking is higher than those around you (you’re analyzing the crumb of that cake while others around you are scarfing it down) and there’s just something about office environments that results in people losing their minds for free food.

      1. sunshyne84*

        I agree. I disagree with everyone else saying stop baking unless you truly want to. I think you just need to say a bit of what you said here about just enjoying to bake things a few times a year and wanting to keep it that way. A simple thanks, but no thanks kinda thing. Tell them you appreciate them and to look out for the next birthday/holiday.

      2. Susan K*

        Yeah, I do enjoy bringing in treats occasionally, partly because I don’t have many other opportunities to feed people large quantities of baked goods any time I feel like baking. At my old job, I brought in Christmas cookies every year, and people would ooh and ahh over my baking skills for a week or two and then forget about it until the next time I brought something. That was nice because I always felt as though the treats were appreciated when I brought them, but nobody pressured me about it the way people are doing now.

    21. Someone Else*

      I’d probably say something like “You’ve got the wrong idea. I did bring in stuff I’ve baked a couple of times, but this is not a major hobby of mine.” And then if just stare like they’d asked if you could loan them a spare giraffe. Hopefully that’ll spread as much as misinformed coworker’s overselling your baking prowess did.

    22. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      I bake for a living and the expectation is that I will bring a wonderful custom made dessert to every social occasion. I don’t mind doing it now and then but I was getting requests/demands for specific goods with expensive ingredients. Making tiramisu or a red velvet cake for 10 or more people is a big time suck. So I started asking, “Am I being invited for my baking or for myself?” Most people got the point.

      1. Em*

        I like to decorate cakes, so if there was something going on, I’d be asked to bring the cake. However, it’s time consuming and I’m a lot busier, so I rarely do it anymore. I have definitely noticed that I’m invited to a lot fewer social events since I stopped bringing the cake. I mentioned it to my mom, and she just said she figures 80% of the things she is invited to, it’s so that she can play for them (piano, organ, etc).

    23. Piano Girl*

      I used to be part of a “breakfast club” at my old job. When it was my turn (every two-three months), I would bring in a nice breakfast and chocolate chip cookies. Everybody enjoyed my cookies and would ask me to bring them in more often. I pointed out that they were a special treat, and I wanted to leave it that way. Everybody looked forward to them, and stopped bugging me. Win-win.

    24. WannaAlp*

      The rule I use for things I make, is that I only make things as gifts, for people who didn’t ask for them in the first place. (I don’t mean that the people don’t appreciate them, I mean that they weren’t acting entitled to my services in any way.)

      The moment someone starts to feel entitled to procuring my making services, is the moment the making stops.

      If it was me in your shoes, I’d say “I’m sorry, but I don’t make cupcakes to order, only as gifts.”. Then they will either drop it, or up their entitlement and ask to have them as gifts. Once they’ve reached that level of entitlement, then I’d feel free to add the bit “Sorry, but I don’t make them on demand. They wouldn’t be fun to make if I was doing them on someone else’s say-so. not mine.”

  6. Annie Moose*

    The volunteer question this morning reminded me of a situation I was curious about. I’m not in this situation myself, just wondering about it.

    Suppose there is a non-profit, and one of its employees works in something like accounting. I know the employee can’t “volunteer” to do the same work without pay, but can they legally volunteer in a totally different role in the organization (e.g. animal care)?

    Does it make any difference if the other role is entirely volunteer (e.g. all accountants are paid positions, all animal care is done by volunteers)?

    Or if you’re employed by a non-profit, are you completely unable to (legally) volunteer for it, regardless of circumstances?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Nonprofit employees can volunteer for their organizations only if the volunteer work is very different from their normal job. So in your example, yes.

    2. Murphy*

      Legally, I don’t know. But when I transitioned from volunteer to staff at a nonprofit (doing very similar animal care work) I was told that we weren’t allowed to volunteer at all, which makes complete sense.

    3. Red Reader*

      When I worked at a nonprofit that operated a crisis hotline, I was paid to be the receptionist and data entry person, and I volunteered to answer one of the phones one evening shift a week. (Yes, it was the same one Ted Bundy volunteered for. They had many aggressively unpleasant things to say about Ann Rule – her book actively violated her volunteer disclosure agreements.)

    4. Kittymommy*

      I know in my government organization you can, just as long as it’s in a different department. (I’m currently doing it.)

    5. OyVey*

      Yes, but with an all caps, flashing neon red BUT to follow. From my experience, there’s some ethically dicey ground when staff take volunteer positions. For example, your non profit is trying to cut a few corners on their volunteer thank you dinner. They want an open bar but don’t want to pay bartenders. Eventually someone thinks “we have staff members who know how to run bar (not their staff jobs, however): They can volunteer their time!” This leads to the awkward situation of staff being more or less told they’re expected to volunteer their time but will not get paid for it. Legal, yes. Ethical, eh, not comfortable with it.

    6. sometimeswhy*

      The place I volunteer has a number of staff in one group volunteering for other groups. Some of them do it for love and some of them do it to skill build but their duties are strictly separate.

    7. Shark Whisperer*

      It happened at my old org all the time, but there were also some very coveted volunteer positions (by both staff and public). In fact, to volunteer with a certain animal, you had to be a volunteer in another department or a paid staff member for at least a year because everyone wanted to do it. Basically what I am trying to say is that although the volunteer work staff was doing needed to be done, it was really more of a perk than demanding labor. So staff members who were volunteering in the rescue department, for instance, got to cuddle baby seals while the staff members from that department got to catch up on records and such, and real volunteers did the poop scrubbing. As far as I know staff wasn’t allowed to volunteer for the not cushy positions.

    8. Judy (since 2010)*

      It’s certainly my understanding that employees can volunteer in positions that are separate from their paid positions. For example, my Girl Scout Council employees can be troop leaders, and about half of them are.

  7. Kimmy*

    How do you deal with a coworker who makes a lot of mistakes when you manage the project but not the coworker? Do you tell your boss about the poor work product (we share a boss) or just deal with fixing the mistakes on your own?

    2. mkt*

      If I manage the project and have accountability which includes individual work components and product, I would both address directly with the coworker and my boss.

    3. Daisy Avalin*

      I would fix the problems, but keep a note of how many you’ve had to fix in one day (just a brief note of the number of times, not necessarily the exact problems), and then go to your boss and say something like, “you’ve noticed that there are a lot of mistakes, this is how many you had to correct on x date, and what is the process for stopping the mistakes?”*

      *Somebody can probably give better wording than this, but I’m getting very irritated with a similar issue, where my boss seems to think the solution is to leave me to ‘do it properly, because I like doing that particular job’!!

    5. Lucky*

      If the mistakes are of a type that can be corrected, I think you start by pointing them out to coworker and asking for a timeline when they will be corrected, something like “I notice that you’re expressing widget production in pounds rather than volume. Will you be able to go back through the report and correct that before we turn it in to Boss?” If coworker repeats the mistakes, or keeps making new ones, or his mistakes mean that your work is delayed, I think then you go to Boss, but you’ll have examples of how you’ve tried to address the issue on your own first.

      1. A tester, not a developer*

        I agree. I’m currently part of a project where I keep having to send a spreadsheet back to Person X – often multiple times. In theory I could fix some things myself, but since I can’t fix everything (lack of access to source data, security authorizations, etc.) it makes the most sense to have a clear record of ‘X sent me the spreadsheet. I indicated that it needed items 1 2 and 3 fixed. They sent it back having only fixed item 1, so I returned it to them’. It also allows me to map back to my time tracking pretty clearly – I couldn’t proceed with project step 17A because I had to keep going back and forth about the spreadsheet for 3 days.

    6. I'm A Little Teapot*

      this is 90% of my job. It’s my responsibility both to correct mistakes (or require them to be corrected), and keep the manger informed on the status. If the coworker is screwing up, that’s part of what I communicate. In fact, I have the authority to make the coworker stay late/show up on the weekend to get the work done if it’s required. But if that’s necessary, the manager is ALWAYS involved because it’s not my job to manage that level of mess from a coworker.

      1. Kimmy*

        Thanks, all. It’s just a pattern of sloppy work product. I’ve talked to my boss about timelines slipping due to late work and priorities but these are more minor issues that suggest to me that my coworker is just not paying enough attention. It seems petty to talk to my boss about them, she’s pretty hands off, but it’s driving me crazy.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          no, that’s valid to bring up. as well as what you’ve done in response. You have some feedback responsibility, but you’re not the manager.

          1. Library Land*

            It’s valid and honestly the larger pattern is something you might bring up to the coworker as well. It doesn’t have to be accusatory, just something like “Hey, I’ve noticed that the color of the widget is often missing from the database, and I’m spending about X minutes fixing it – sometimes making the shipment late. Can you double check that you’ve entered the color? I’ll also start flagging the issues when the come up to help us stay on top of it.”

    7. Nita*

      Depends. I deal with this on occasion because there’s just never enough time to train people in what I do. They’ll hand me their work product to review, and by the time I’ve gone through it they’ve been pulled into another project and cannot make corrections. I don’t think it’s their fault – it’s a systemic problem because we’re short-staffed. I’ve complained to my boss quite a few times (without naming names) but management is aware of this and would do something about it if they could. We just seem to never catch up the staffing to the amount of work.

      Now if someone was making a lot of mistakes in work they’ve been trained on and should know well – I’d start with trying to get them a second round of training in case the first one wasn’t enough, and failing that would talk to their manager about possibly not assigning this type of work to them. Not everyone is good at everything!

    8. nd*

      First address it with the co-worker and have them fix the mistakes. As the project manager, you can do that. And this is why you set project team deadlines earlier than they need to be. If the mistakes continue or if your co-worker cannot or will not fix them, go to your boss. Make sure you retain all documentation with mistakes for any discussion with your boss. But as a project manager, it’s your responsibility to keep the project on track and the quality high. That’s one of the many challenges, because project managers often have no actual authority over project team members.

    9. OhGee*

      I deal with this a lot (at a nonprofit). I manage several team-wide and org-wide projects, and one of my teammates (who has been here long enough to have learned) regularly skips simple protocols that help keep our work flowing, pushes off tasks because they don’t feel the task is important, etc. My boss is very passive, and is also ‘friends’ with my coworker from before they joined the organization. The only solution I’ve found is to be very direct with this coworker – 1 on 1 the first time, and then in a team meeting after the first time, along with alerting my boss to issues in both our weekly meetings and via email. It sucks: I recently had to be borderline unkind to my teammate, who had pushed off a task for several months (they showed up to a monthly meeting without completing the task…three times). But between my boss’s passive management, my coworker’s laissez-faire attitude, and my need to stay on top of multiple complex projects, I’ve had to get tough. So I agree with others who have suggested addressing things with both the colleague AND your boss.

    10. uranus wars*

      I am in a similar situation, only we don’t share a boss. So while my boss listens and understands my frustration there is little we can do about it since the co-workers boss is largely absent and doesn’t care to hear feedback when we try to give it.

      Ways I’ve dealt with it myself and just throwing it back on her in a very direct way. I have minimized non-work related interactions, email EVERYTHING and when she says she didn’t get something I re-forward it to her, highlight the appropriate line and reiterate the instructions. If she doesn’t complete something I know just send it back: “you didn’t do x/y/z, please get the correct report back to my by 5″….I basically manager her as well as the process. It is mind numbing at times but I actually have less stress when it comes to working with her now, since I don’t actually take the time to correct her mistakes.

      I think she is put off a bit because I am not her manager but sometimes have to act like it. But sometimes there is no choice.

    11. Student*

      You absolutely start by talking to the person directly who is making the mistakes. Make sure they are aware of the overall pattern, not just one specific set of mistakes, and that it is not acceptable for the project. Make sure you also hear them out on their side of it. Sometimes they just get defensive, but sometimes there are actual blocks to them being successful that you can address.

      If that doesn’t fix it, or doesn’t get fast enough results to the level you require, then take it to the boss.

      Then you haven’t blindsided your project member, you gave them a direct chance to fix it, and you made sure they knew exactly what you needed from them in your own words. If it gets relayed through a boss first, the specific feedback/issue often gets muddled unless you have a really good boss, and the project member gets less opportunity to raise any mitigating circumstances you might not be aware of .

    12. Thlayli*

      I’ve worked as a PM for a long time and managed lots of coworkers on projects but never been a line manager, so I have a lot of experience in this area.

      Typically the first step is to address it with the team member. If they are incapable of fixing it or unwilling to try, then yes fix it yourself, but also do the following:
      1 let your boss know there was a need for rework so they are aware. Depending on the way your projects are run and if it is an internal or external project this may show up in hours billed so you or your boss may also need to make some adjustment to the bill as clients shouldn’t typically be charged for mistakes – or your boss may see a reduction in profit and needs to understand it.
      2 talk to the team members boss and explain that the team member was unable / unwilling to fix the problem. You may wish to discuss this with the team member in advance depending on their attitude. It may be that there’s an obvious solution eg “just need to loop you in – Jane wasn’t familiar with the teapot paint the client needed so we ended up having to repaint. Any chance you can get Jane sent on the painting training course? Or do you have another teapot painter with expertise in that paint?” Or it may need to be a more serious conversation. Eg “Jan accidentally painted the teapot blue and when I told her it needed to be red she refused to paint it red.”

      Basically you need to let both bosses know about it. Jane has been assigned to your project by her boss and if she is not doing it properly then her boss needs to know so boss can take appropriate steps. And your boss needs to understand why your project suddenly needs 2 pots of paint instead of 1.

      1. Thlayli*

        One last thing – if Coworker outranks you or if her boss is very high above you in heirarchy, don’t talk to her boss directly. Instead tell your boss and ask your boss to discuss with Her boss.

        Typically what happens in my experience is my department would tell the other department we weren’t happy with a team members work and then we just wouldn’t be assigned that team member again. But we were a big enough company to make that happen.

    13. designbot*

      Just because you don’t manage the employee overall doesn’t mean you’re not meant to manage them in this specific task. Manage the delivery of the project, including any of that coworker’s contributions. Then mention to the person who is their manager how that’s going.

  8. pockets for snacks*

    Can anyone give me public health advice? I am currently doing non-health-related data analysis/statistics/modeling and would like to move into epidemiology.

    1) I *think* my best move here is an MPH. Is that right? I have a strong quantitative background and two very basic undergrad courses in PH but no experience. Someone told me an MS in statistics would be just as good but idk.

    2) How much does it matter where you get your PH degree? If I have to shoot for Emory and Harvard to get a good job I will, but my ~#20 USNWR state school would be more convenient and cheaper, obviously.

    3) What kind of volunteer experience should I be looking for? So far I’ve only found things like stuffing envelopes for PH organizations, or hands-on medical things like EMS. Does anyone let volunteers do epi-related tasks? What would strengthen my application the most and where do I find these positions?

    1. Never*

      1) It depends on what you want to do. If you want to be a biostatistician, get a MS in Statistics. If you want to do something more like community health surveillance, get a MPH. Unfortunately people in the industry do not take you seriously as a statistician if you “only” have a degree in epi. Feel free to reply with more detail on what you want to do (if you know) and I’ll try to be more specific. :)

      2) There are non-Harvard schools that are known for having really good MPH programs, such as the University of Michigan. If Brown had released their master’s program in epi a year earlier, I would have gone there.

      1. pockets for snacks*

        I’m not entirely sure what I want to do, is I guess part of my problem, and I’m not sure how to figure out what these different job titles mean in terms of actual responsibilities and work.

    2. ContentWrangler*

      My partner is a recent MPH who specialized in biostats and epidemiology! He currently works in the research department of a medical school, doing data analysis of medical claims. I’ll show him this question after work and see if he has any suggestions.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      Do you know anybody in your current job who works in that field? I’d always start there, or aim to network with someone that way. Ideally you could shadow someone to make sure that’s actually your dream job before you look at schools, but I don’t know how often that actually happens these days.

    4. Commander Smiley*

      I know quite a few epidemiologists with MPHs, but not all of them. If you are really into the modeling side (and if you are, bless you because that makes my head spin), I would consider an MPH with a minor in biostatistics or a degree in biostatistics if the MPH doesn’t appeal to you.

      You don’t have to go to a top-tier school to get a good job; a good record at a good school will be enough.

      The only volunteer options I know about are field work, which isn’t really your area, so I won’t be much help there. However, you can join an epi society or 2 and try to get involved in a committee. The society committees ALWAYS need volunteers, and there are usually slots for student volunteers. I would suggest the Society for Epidemiologic Research (SER) or the American College of Epidemiology (ACE).

    5. state school mph grad working in govt*

      Data analysis/stats/modeling will be super useful work experience. I would suggest looking at the difference between biostats (often funded or scholarship-supported) and epi (some funding opportunities but fewer) programs. I’d recommend getting a degree with the least possible amount of debt–the big PH schools are good for name recognition but cost a pretty penny. Also Emory is not as highly ranked in PH as a few state schools, anyway :)

    7. Cat*

      I work for a state-level public health agency and have an MPH in epidemiology.

      1) Yes, if what you want to do is epidemiology, you will likely need an MPH at some point. It’s possible without one, but most people I know have one or a similar degree.
      2) Where do you want to work? (physical location). If you go to a well-known program nationally (like Emory), it can definately give you great experience and skills and help you get a job in a variety of places.
      That’s where I went, actually. It can also be helpful to go to a school in the city/region you want to work in. I moved outside of GA after going to Emory, and many of my coworkers here went to state schools in the state I’m now. Networking and internships in the local area can help you get a job there.
      3) From experience, I can tell you it’s very difficult as a non-student to get volunteer experience doing epi work. It might be possible through a local PH department. However, your current analytical experience and strong quantitative background plus some more general PH volunteering would likely still get you into an MPH program, where you could more easily get epi-specific experience.

      1. state school mph grad working in govt*

        “PH volunteering” as stated here could include something in a hospital, something to do with a blood drive, honestly even something to do with animals if you could connect it to an interest in zoonotic disease.

    8. Eeyore's missing tail*

      It depends on what you want to do with your training. My institution offers an MPH with a concentrations in biostatisics and epidemiology. Others with an MPH please correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I understand, an MPH is more of a professional degree. If you went with something like an MS in statistics, biostatistics, or epidemiology (which are offered), those are more research degrees. You may not get the broad overview of the field like an MPH, but you’d be more specialized in whichever field you chose.

      There are plenty of people with MPHs from good schools that aren’t Emory or Harvard. My institution is in the upper 30s, but from what I understand, it’s known to be a good program.

    9. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      MPH is a great place to go with this! Another thought for volunteering might be a Red Cross blood drive? I’m not entirely sure what they could have you do – this isn’t my bailiwick.

      I don’t know which “~#20 USNWR state school” you are referring to, however the one that is in my backyard has a really comprehensive internship program, and they place a LOT of interns with the state Health Department, for example (not all, but a good number of them, are paid). A strong internship(s) will be even more beneficial than volunteer experience. I would imagine most programs have something similar.

      Also, omg, quantitative skills will help you in almost ANY field.

    10. mph gal*

      Emory MPH grad here. If you’re interested in staying in your area and your state school has some decent connections for internship opportunities I would investigate that first. I think the most appealing aspects of Emory are the internship opportunities they advertise heavily, however I had quite a few friends who struggled to find internship/ practicum opportunities. I was able to find an internship that allowed me to be able to create a professional network with people in my home state after graduation, but not everyone did. Also Emory is hella expensive (as someone who went to a small state school for undergrad).

    11. Public Health Nerd*

      Univ. WA MPH here. At my program, you chose your major as health services or epidemiology. Super useful degree, but there regional gluts of people with an MPH. I think a program that requires a thesis and a practicum is your best bet, not sure if the school otherwise matters a lot.

      In our area, you can apply to be a clinical research team volunteer. You would be involved with data cleaning but would be more likely to have access to researcher doing interesting things. You can check clinicaltrials.gov and find active teams near you. These may be more common in cities with teaching hospitals and state universities though.

      In many programs, coursework in epi and study design is required no matter your major. So if you want to do a little analysis and more of other stuff, you aren’t required to get an epi degree.

    12. masters student of none*

      I’m currently getting an MPH (not in epi though) and I really think that as long as the school is CEPH accredited its good. All the ones in TX are and only run about ~3500$ish a semester. I have a friend who got hers from my same school and is a state epidemiologist now. I got into UM and not going was the best decision I made because an MPH is definitely not worth tens of thousands in student debt

  9. Afiendishthingy*

    Just got a post-interview rejection email… for a job I’d already received a rejection for. Guess the two interviewers don’t communicate too well. How’s your day?

        1. Afiendishthingy*

          Yeah I don’t really think it’s indicative of a chaotic environment- these two people don’t work in the same building generally- but it’s comforting to say I dodged a bullet anyway :)

    4. Elisabeth*

      I had an HR interviewer call me almost immediately after I expressed my huge interest in the job and why I felt qualified. Went through the 15 minutes of going line by line on my resume and getting my background and everything and then said, “Well, you seem like a job hopper who is always looking for the next best thing. I can’t even put this on the hiring manager’s desk. Try back in 2 years when you have tenure at your current job.”

      It was a slap in the face to the level I have never experienced. Basically *fist bump*.

      2. Jadelyn*

        Wow, that’s…blunt and unnecessarily harsh. I can see the value in providing some feedback on that, but there’s no need to be rude about it – something like “your qualifications are great, but I’m concerned about the pattern of your job history. You’ve got a lot of short stays and it gives the impression that you’re not committing to the job you have, but focusing on the next job to get. The hiring manager for this is looking for someone who will be here for the long-term, so I won’t be able to move you forward in the process – but, if you’re able to establish a more stable work history in the future, we’d love to hear from you again.”

        I mean, “you seem like a job hopper who is always looking for the next best thing” is a pretty harsh judgment, even if that’s what someone’s work history suggests.

        1. Elisabeth*

          It was also for an extremely large, multi-national, multi-billion dollar Company whom I’d had a good rapport with in the past. So, to me, it was EXTREMELY odd to be contacted by them, go through my resume, and then be told these things. I would expect it to be ignored or put on a pile of “nope!” If I was persistent in contact or e-mail outside of a job portal, I would better understand their needing to be harsh. But it all happened so rapidly it was like whiplash.

          I was also a little startled because it was going from, basically, Teacup to Saucer but of the same set. (Same profession/career, but different contexts), and I had intentionally been trying to move from Teacup to Saucer and expressed this in the phone call as to why I was looking to make this move because I felt like Saucer was better than Teacup.

          It was just a very strange experience. Then Recruiter had viewed me on LinkedIn, so I viewed them out of curiosity, only to see a string of 10 months or less jobs over the last 5 years. I felt a little like I was watching someone in a glass house hurl bricks at me. But, again, that has no relevance to the position I was applying for and I didn’t contact them about it or even mention it publicly. It was just another bit of salt in the wound.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Huh. It sounds like someone took the “we actually know this person, therefore we should at least give them a courtesy interview” and ran with it in entirely the wrong direction. As in, the opposite direction from where it should have gone.

            1. Elisabeth*

              The original person I had spoken with 2 years prior (the job was more entry level than my qualifications, and the pay was well below where I needed to be/commensurate with my experience) was out for the month. It was a person who was BRAND NEW to the Company. So who even knows what happened.

              I did end up in a fit of pique letting HR know that I had an unpleasant experience. That I understood I may not be suited for the role, I would expect rejection in that case, but that I felt the manner in which it was handled was inappropriate. I had four people read it before I sent it, and they agreed that in this instance, it may be seen as shrill of a rejectee, but if it wasn’t, it was decent feedback to give. Especially considering my prior experience had been so positive.

      3. A tester, not a developer*

        And I bet if they went through my resume (20+ years at the same company in varying roles), they’d say I was too stagnant and complacent and they wouldn’t put this on the hiring manager’s desk.

      4. Yikes*

        I once had an interview at a job fair that seemed to have gone exceptionally well. I told the interviewer as I handed over my resume that my GPA for my first year in my program was low, but that as he could see it was anomalous from my extensive work history, and that the issue was I had tanked my first semester, but done very well in the second semester and summer semester. He took the resume, looked at my GPA, said “well I’ll add this to the pile” and put in the trash. It made me feel so hopeless.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Holy shit, my jaw literally dropped. What a complete jackass. Awful as it feels, that’s a bullet dodged.

    5. Legal Rugby*

      I applied for a legal position with a big government agency, and was one of two last round candidates. They went with the other person, which I was sad about.

      They then sent me a rejection letter every 30 days for the next year until the job aged out of their system. By the end of the year, I straight up hated them.

    7. Melonhead*

      Ugh. Commiserating here. Have applied for 50 jobs since July 5, had 3 interviews, 2 rejections. Waiting to hear if my 2nd interview with the 3rd company went well.

      Meanwhile, I keep applying and moving on. It’s hard not to get discouraged! So hang in there – you’re not alone

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        Thanks and good luck to you! Job searching is the worst! Today was my last day of my temp job (covered a maternity leave) so I am feeling the heat.

    8. ChaufferMeChaufferYou*

      That happened to me once. I could tell they were system generated messages. My job is configuring that recruiting system, so I emailed them to let them know there may be an issue with their notifications.

      No reply.

      Hopefully they found someone who could fix it. (I could have, but I know I dodged a bullet there).

    9. BahahaBlackSheep*

      Currently at work trying to dodge my boss giving interview tours to in-person interviewees for my dream position, that I didn’t make the interview round for, so I feel you!

    10. G. Whillikers*

      Last week I received two rejections for the same job… a job I *withdrew my application for* a few days after I applied (several weeks ago).

  10. Berry*

    I got a full time offer! It’s been a long three years looking for a full time job in my field since I graduated from school and it’s such a relief! I even managed to successfully negotiate for a slightly higher salary, I’m so thankful for this site for everything I’ve learned reading it over the years!

    I’m stuck on two things right now that I don’t know how to handle and I’d appreciate some advice.
    1. I was given a start date of this upcoming Wednesday, pending a background check. Last I heard from HR was on Monday and I did my drug screening on Tuesday, would it be fine to send a checking in/following up email to HR this afternoon? Or should I wait until Monday instead?

    2. Because of some weird categorizing, I’m going to be a full time employee (benefits and all), but paid hourly, instead of paid salary. This is a small company that’s growing quickly over the last few months (HR comes from the parent company) so I’m coming into a new position. I’d love to have a clear discussion with my manager in my first few days about how being hourly will work – how to count hours, what it means if I’m running a few minutes late due to public transportation, how it’ll work with checking in on the weekends. What’s the best way to approach this conversation to get everything straightened out in the beginning rather than after I’ve been working there for a few months without sounding like I’m a new employee that’s more invested in my time away from work than my time at work?

    1. Atalanta0jess*

      1) I don’t think there is a substantive difference between friday afternoon and monday, any time would be fine IMO.

      2) “Can you talk to me about how time keeping works for hourly employees? How should I handle it if I have to stay a few minutes late to finish up a phone call?” Then as a follow up question, if it hasn’t already been answered of “ok, great! Is it a similar approach if I’m running a few minutes late in the morning? I’m typically a punctual person, but I do ride public transportation.”

      I personally wouldn’t broach checking in on the weekends because I prefer not to do that, and unless you’re being paid for weekend time, or it’s otherwise clear that you must check in over the weekend, I recommend you don’t either. As an hourly employee there should not be an expectation that you check in during your non-work hours.

    2. Amber T*

      Regarding #2 – I’m really curious, because when I first started I was also paid hourly, and after reading around some comments here, I got the impression that what my company didn’t wasn’t 100% legal, even though it was always in my favor. I was always paid for 8 hours a day, regardless if I got stuck in traffic or had to leave a half hour early, or had a doctors appointment mid day. If I worked overtime, then I submitted an overtime sheet with my additional hours, which my manager signed off on, then submitted to payroll. I’m salary now so I can work 7-12 hours a day and it wouldn’t matter. I would work your first few days normally – they’ll show you a time card system maybe. I’d give it some time, and if things are still unclear after a week or two, then broach it with your boss.

      1. Schnoodle HRM*

        What would have been illegal about your previous situation? It’s legal to pay for more hours even if you didn’t work them. It would be illegal if say, only white people had that privilege or only men. Or only white men.

      2. Natalie*

        That set up is legally perfectly fine. Paying a non-exempt (i.e. eligible for overtime) a salary and paying them time and a half when they work OT is essentially paying them more than you’re legally obligated to. The law establishes a floor, not a ceiling.

        2. Amber T*

          Ah, gotta remember floor not ceiling. Sometimes I read comments that say “the law says this” so therefore, anything deviating from it is Not Good.

      3. Jadelyn*

        Sounds fine to me – it sounds like you were actually salaried non-exempt rather than truly hourly, which is a less-used but still legal classification employers have the option of going with for non-exempt staff.

    3. BlueWolf*

      I would say wait until Monday to see if you get an update on the background check. Honestly, my current job gave a timeline of up to two weeks for the background check, but I suppose it could take less time.

      As for the schedule stuff, it sounds like you’re non-exempt, meaning you are paid for all time worked and are paid overtime. They should have some kind of timekeeping system to manually record your hours or clock in and out. If you have any questions about your schedule/hours you can definitely just ask your manager especially because it may be department-specific, but you may also have a formal orientation/on-boarding process on your first day that explains all of that anyways.

    4. Violaine*

      I think it would be fine to send an email to HR, just to check and see if there’s anything else they need from you before the weekend.

      Someone should absolutely go over timekeeping with you on your first day, and it is absolutely reasonable to ask about it, if they don’t volunteer that information. More than likely on day 1, you’ll be focused on getting set up, getting your badge, etc. Does the company have any sort of new employee orientation?

      In my last job, I was given timekeeping information even before my first day, though it took a few days to it to work smoothly. In my new role (starting next week), it is something still to be addressed but I believe my project manager will be on-site and we can discuss it then.

      Congratulations on the new job!

    5. Schnoodle HRM*

      Both of these will make you come off as a slight orange flag.

      1. There’s no need to follow up on background/drug screen unless you’re scared it’s not clean. A good HR person will call you and let you know all is good. Otherwise, I’d call the day before you are to start to just make sure tomorrow is still good to go. I wouldn’t mention the screening.

      2. DO NOT BRING UP YOUR POTENTIAL TARDY ISSUE. Being paid hourly is the easiest way to be paid, I’m not sure what your issue is here, but I definitely wouldn’t ask “so what about the times I’ll be late?” (no matter the reason). Asking if time is kept up with a timesheet or a computer system of sorts should be covered in orientation. If by end of day that hasn’t been clear, then ask “I’ve enjoyed my first day. Before I leave I want to make sure I’m recording my hours correctly – is there a paper time sheet or a computer timekeeping system of sorts I should be using?”

      On being late, try not to be late. But don’t bring it up as a thing that WILL happen to you as you phrased it. Hopefully it won’t happen! But when it does, you may face whatever their attendance policy is, or they may be lenient and understanding of public transportation. But being late is outside of how you’re paid. You are paid for your hours worked, so if you are late an hour, then yeah you won’t be paid for that hour. Whether or not you can “make it up” is up to the company but I wouldn’t’ ask that right off the bat. It will just put you in a negative light.

    6. Kittymommy*

      I think this afternoon would be fine, or Monday.

      In my last job I was hourly, full time. If I remember correctly the pay/salary overhaul Obama was advocating with the Labor department a few years ago was pushing for people in this tie of job too be better classified so they are not under paid. With my job, I just filled out a time sheet every 2 weeks with the same 8-5 and flexed time out that day or week if needed.

    7. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      1. I’d wait until the day before, if you haven’t heard AND they specifically said you’d only start IF the background check had completed, then I’d call. Otherwise, I’d show up at the time stated. If they didn’t state a time, obviously that’s another reason to call. Everywhere I’ve worked has involved a background check and generally HR knows how long those are going to take and plans correctly or they’d be pushing back start dates constantly.

      2. If you don’t get a handbook or have an orientation that spells out attendance/timekeeping, by all means ask. You’re going to need to know what hours they expect you to work and if you ask “what are the typical work hours” that will lead into them explaining the rest.

  11. AnonForThis*

    oooooooh man, I have been waiting for today so that I could post this. Anon, obvs.

    Running a search process right now and conducting first-round interviews. Candidate emails me the evening before their interview to tell me she is pregnant, due in late winter, and asks if I want her to continue in the search, knowing that she’d be missing a huge important time period for this job ::record skip squealing brakes:: WHAT? WHAT? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Did you seriously just ask me that? Do you not know anything about the laws here? What, am I going to write back “OMG thanks for telling me! Hell no, I don’t want you to interview! Blech, babies? EW!” LOLNO.
    So of course I respond professionally and tell her that I welcome her candidacy if she would like to continue with the search process. Do her interview, and she is fine. There are quite a few people that have stronger interviews and push her down the line throughout the week. So now I have to document the ever-loving HECK out of everything for when I send her a “thanks but no thanks” email, just in case I need to cover my a** here.
    OY VEY.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      When we’ve had something similar, we created a scored matrix on the different criteria we were considering, so we could clearly document which metrics the candidate was weak on and how they stacked up to other candidates. It made it very easy to demonstrate the decision making process to anyone who asked (and save that letter where you tell her you’d be happy to consider her candidacy!).

      1. AnonForThis*

        Oh that’s a good suggestion, thank you. I have all my written notes from her phone interview, with my “final thoughts” on the back, so it should be easy enough to put together a matrix based on demonstrated KSA’s from the interviews.

        My boss is suspicious that this is a set-up. I just think the candidate is young and naive and erred on the side of overshare/too transparent too soon.

        1. Washi*

          Yeah, absent any other information, I feel like she’s following the procedure one would use if she had scheduled like, a 3-month deal breaker vacation in the winter already and doesn’t realize that the laws around pregnancy and discrimination make this a very different situation.

          1. AnonForThis*

            But would you disclose that before your first interview? Isn’t that something to disclose after you have an offer?

            1. Susan K*

              My guess is that she didn’t want to waste her time interviewing if it was going to be a deal-breaker. I doubt it was a setup. Some people are seriously uninformed about their rights, so it’s possible the candidate doesn’t know it would be illegal to discriminate based on pregnancy. I’ve even seen characters on TV shows say, “Nobody’s going to hire me now that I’m pregnant!”

              1. Atalanta0jess*

                Well, I’ve heard lots of people say that in real life, because like…it’s often true. Even if it is illegal. It’s not exactly naive to think that you will face barriers to employment if you are visibly pregnant.

            2. ThisIsMyNewUserName*

              I switched jobs (they contacted me) when I was like 3 months pregnant. The timing of the pregnancy meant I would be out literally at the worst time possible (a CPA firm and I was due March 15). I told my supervisor on my first day. No way I would have told them before!

            3. Lily Rowan*

              Like you say, someone who didn’t know better might.

              My overall reaction: OOooooOOOHHHHH noooOOOOOOOO!

            4. Tableau Wizard*

              If she’s due in late winter, she’s visibly pregnant and probably wanted to address the issue ahead of time. I can imagine a world where this advice was given to her. I agree with the rest of the commenters that it’s best to wait until after the offer or after starting (I had to tell my current boss in the first two weeks), but my guess is the visible bump is part of why she felt the need to disclose early.

              1. AMPG*

                “Late winter” could mean February, though, in which case she almost certainly wouldn’t be showing yet.

          2. Lissa*

            I could see this falling into “following older family members’ bad job advice” if they’re telling her something like “you want to be completely honest about everything or it will be worse later!” Or looking at it like a dating site profile or something.

        2. That Would be a Good Band Name*

          I did this once when pregnant with my first. I didn’t ask if I should continue, but I did disclose I was pregnant. Mostly because I just felt so guilty that I’d be taking off so much time so soon after starting. Young/naive/overshare is the most likely culprit.

        3. The Doctor*

          It’s clearly a set-up. Do a search of her name and see if she has sued any other companies for discrimination.

      2. Logan*

        Our workplace is very clear about having these matrices. I developed a point system ahead of my interviews, and I did submit the results to HR, although thankfully one candidate was clearly better than the others (there was no need to compare A’s skills in one area to B’s skills in another area) and they accepted the offer.

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      The cynic in me thinks she did it on purpose to try to passive aggressively force you to hire her. This may be a bad way to handle it, but I honestly wouldn’t have responded at all to that email and let her decide to show up or not.

      3. formerSGartist*

        Or, she could have been screening for bad workplaces/jerk managers. If it were me, I’d be basing my decision on which company responded appropriately to this level of honesty.

        So many hiring managers still don’t get that interviewing involves both sides.

    3. Anonaswell*

      Oh man, we had that happen too. Some guy put his age (which was older) on his resume. Then again in his cover letter. He met the basic requirements so we inteviewed him. We could tell he was spoiling to sue us. Fortunately he basically gave a very clear no hire statement in his interview (he basically said he couldn’t do one of the core tasks of the job, literally every person in the room wrote it down and starred it). It was unfun.

    4. Schnoodle HRM*

      As a woman who’s been discriminated against based on pregnancy I may take this more personally than I should. Beign HR, I also understand the strain on operations.

      Here’s the thing. Be open minded here. If she is a good candidate otherwise, please keep considering her instead of focusing on how to CYA and already have made the decision of hell no. Would someone else be able to be trained for her maternity leave? Also know, that literally anyone could leave you hanging then. From someone who unfortunately gets cancer, passes away, moves, or finds another job. So NOT hiring her isn’t solving your problem that’s always been there – there’s no way to predict human behavior and the human you hire may or may not be there for your important project. Pregnant or not.

      Also, if she isn’t a good candidate, please let her know ASAP. Being pregnant and job searching is extra hard. And pregnancy fatigue and hormones and stress…just be kind and let her know so she knows to not waste further time/energy on this job.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        It doesn’t sound at all like her pregnancy is the problem–she’s either got very poor judgment or she’s trying to pull a fast one to either get hired or complain about discrimination.

      2. Anonaswell*

        I am a pregnant lady and while I agree with telling her ASAP, I do not agree with giving her another look. There are better candidates, that is how hiring works. You do not hire someone out of sympathy or fear of being sued. That is not representing the bests interests of your organization.

        I interviewed someone who told us about her personal struggles and cried in the interview. Was I sorry for her? Absolutely. But hiring her would have been a huge mistake. She was not a good fit for the role. As a hiring member your first duty is to your organization, not the applicants.

      3. Gloucesterina*

        I’m sorry that happened to you Schnoodle HM!

        While I wholeheartedly agree that candidates should be notified promptly if they aren’t advancing, I don’t think a candidate should be treated differently because she is pregnant (i.e. due to the hiring committee’s assumption that job searching is exceptionally difficult for this person because her health is being significantly affected by pregnancy, which is impossible for the hiring committee to know.) Operating from this assumption seems dangerously close to the idea that someone who is pregnant or postpartum can’t perform as well in a role due to hormones, “mom brain,” etc.

    5. Nita*

      So I can definitely see how this causes problems for you, but… ideally, how should this be handled? Presumably she’s not showing yet so you can’t tell when she comes in to interview. She’s probably aware that if she’s hired, her being gone for weeks might be a problem on your end. I assume it would be a good thing to disclose before she’s hired? If so, when? If she brings it up when the offer is made, and you cannot accommodate the leave and cannot extend the offer, isn’t that still a legal problem?

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I think if you truly could not accommodate the leave at all, you would just have to say that, and allow the applicant to decide if they want the job or not if they’re not going to be able to get leave. But you’d better be damned sure that it is a literal requirement that somebody be physically present, remembering that any employee could get sick or have a family issue crop up unexpectedly.

      2. Jadelyn*

        Honestly, this is the sort of thing you don’t tell a prospective employer until after you’ve started, for the exact reason you mention at the end of your post – whether it happens early in the process or later, the employer can’t make the decision based on a candidate’s pregnancy. Like, you’d want to tell your new employer soon after you start to give them as much notice as possible, but you really, really, really do not want to tell a prospective employer that you’re pregnant while you’re still just a candidate.

        Because the thing is, being gone for weeks may well be a problem on the employer’s end – but that doesn’t matter. That’s their problem to solve. You hire temp coverage, you redistribute the workload, whatever you have to do to accommodate that. People get pregnant and go out on maternity leave at inconvenient times sometimes. It’s just a thing that happens and if you’re running a business you need to be prepared for it. It’s not on the candidate to manage that for the company.

        One thing to note, though, is that if you’re in the US, if you’re pregnant at the time you get hired you will not have been working there for a full year by the time you have the baby, which means you will not be eligible for FMLA, which would protect your job while you’re out. Then it comes down to pregnancy discrimination laws and what kind of accommodations your employer has for employees who are temporarily disabled – if they allow people to go out on temporary disability, they would need to allow you the same while your pregnancy/birth is keeping you from being able to work.

    6. Tableau Wizard*

      So this is slightly tangential to your question, but something just hit me about how this could all play out.

      Let’s say that the pregnant candidate WAS the best one for the job, but that you honestly couldn’t accommodate a leave for this position.
      Legally, you can’t NOT hire a candidate because she’s pregnant and will be taking maternity leave.
      HOWEVER, If you hire the pregnant woman, there’s nothing legally stopping you from firing her when she takes her leave because it’s within the first year so FMLA doesn’t apply.

      So you legally have to give her the job until she actually has the baby at which point, you can fire her.

      Am I interpreting the laws incorrectly here?
      Just to be clear, I am in NO WAY advocating for this to happen, but just asking if this is the correct interpretation of those laws.

      1. Jadelyn*

        It depends on what your company does for other employees who are sick or temporarily disabled. What would the company do if the person in that position were in a car accident and were injured badly enough that they were bedridden for awhile? Whatever they would do for that, they must also do for the pregnant employee – not under the FMLA, but under pregnancy discrimination laws. So if your company accommodates short-term disability leave of up to 4 weeks, for example, you would need to do the same for your pregnant employee, though only for the time period that she is explicitly disabled by pregnancy/birth – it wouldn’t need to cover baby bonding time the way FMLA can. Basically, you’d need to treat the medically-indicated time off the way you’d treat any other disability, but as soon as the doctor released the employee to return to work you could require them to come back or be fired.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Yep. There are plenty of companies that don’t *want* to accommodate a long leave, but there are actually relatively few jobs (working remotely in the Alaskan wilderness over a specific field season, maybe?) that literally could not. Those jobs would know who they were, because if Fred broke his leg, he’d have to be fired.

    7. AnonForThis*

      Thank you all for your thoughts!! So we went through ALL the first round interviews last week, and she had definitely been bumped out by 6 more qualified candidates (and we only continue on with our top 4). It wasn’t just me conducting the interviews, but I was the only one on the phone screen who knew she was pregnant. So it was also a team decision of who to carry forward.
      IF she had been the absolute best candidate, I definitely would have carried forward with her. I’m a working mom, so I understand what it takes to have a baby/kid in this particular field, and I am always happy to support. She would have been out at a really really hard time for us, but yeah…life happens. I agree that it was just naivety and perhaps bad advice from family members.
      She would NOT have had any FLMA protection, and she would only be eligible to take unpaid leave combined with any accrued vacation/sick days (paid).

  12. Anon for today*

    What do you do when you’re the employee who is in over their heads? Without going into too much detail as I know folks here in my office read this, I took on a position last year (say head llama groomer) for which I had certification but little to no practical experience. I’ve really struggled with trying to accomplish the boss’s goals. I know I’ll get there eventually but with no in house training (think we’re a teapot making company that HAS to provide llama grooming for regulatory purposes), I’m basically figuring things out as I go along. This week, my boss forwarded me an email chain re some things that we’ve been working on. I’m sure he didn’t realize that at the bottom of the chain was an email between he and the other person were he stated that I was very inexperienced and couldn’t problem solve.

    I have to admit – I’m hurt. Where do I go from here? Leaving this job is not an option – I need the $ and benefits. Cant move away from tiny rural area Im in due to family considerations.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Oh dear, I’m sorry, how upsetting to see that. But I guess try to think of it as good information to have – now you know what he’s thinking, maybe it’s an opportunity to address the problem head-on? Either with him directly, or to give yourself permission to admit maybe you are struggling and need to take big steps to address it. Could you shadow someone who does this somewhere else? Set up a phone call? Networking is so critical when you’re the only one who does something at a company – you’re definitely not the only one in the field, and you need the support of others who do this work day in and out.

    2. Afiendishthingy*

      Oh no how awful! Totally careless of your boss. I would talk to your boss about how you can improve but also start job hunting just in case. Good luck!

    3. Purple soda*

      Ngh I am really sorry you had to see that. Happens to my coworker too, and to make things worse she saw it because it was CC-ed to the entire company :-(

    4. gecko*

      This sucks. There’s always a risk of being pushed out if you ask for more training/support; but this will only compound the longer you let it go.

      There’s a number of different paths here. You let it go unsaid, and you improve enough that it ends up fine. You let it go unsaid, and you get fired. You ask your boss for help, and you get let go. You ask your boss for help, and you improve.

      I think if you go to your boss and ask for specific things—“I’ve been struggling with X, can I get Y resource”—or get those resources yourself, those are your best bets.

      But, I’m sorry. It really just sucks.

    5. BRR*

      If this hasn’t come up with you and your boss directly, bring it up so that it won’t reach a point of no return. Is it possible to ask for a certain resource to help? I was missing a certain skill for my current position and it was directly talked about during my interview. It’s creeped up once or twice and I professionally said that it was clear I didn’t not have this skill when hired, either they sink re$ource$ into it or be happy with my current pace of growth.

      I would also casually be job hunting in the background.

    6. Independent George*

      It’s a careless of your boss to include that in the email chain, and your boss owes it to you to have that candid conversation. But….you can take this as constructive criticism. There’s a learning curve, and it’s possible Boss isn’t very realistic about how large the learning curve is. I think you should focus on how you can close those gaps. It’s possible this isn’t the right role for you, but is this just the early freak-out moment or the realization you’re not cut out for this? I often have the freak-out when I’m learning new skills and have a hard time seeing it for what it is, inexperience. But I’ve managed to get over that hurdle with the understanding that there is a learning curve, and I will come out better in the long run. I’m in that place now as well. Best of luck to you.

      1. Anon for today*

        I KNOW I can do it. I’m NOT dumb. I can certainly learn but what I cant do well is come up with some of this stuff on my own (ergo perhsps the lack of “problem solving” comment he made)

        What I have difficulty with is making decisions about things for which there can be legal and criminal consequences when I’m not 100% sure that what I’m doing is the right way. Does that make sense? So, in an ideal situation, I would have someone showing me the ropes – which I sort of did except I know the way that person was doing some stuff was wrong so….

        Sigh.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Is there a professional organization for what you’re doing, or networking events for that field in your area (or that you could travel to, within reason)? Like, I do HR. I’m a member of SHRM and NCHRA, plus I keep in touch with a few people I’ve met at conferences over the years, and there’s a mailing list for HR practitioners specifically in the type of company I’m at, which we all use to pool our resources. So if something comes up and we’re not sure how to handle it, we can email that list and say “Hey guys, X happened. We’re thinking of doing Y about it, but it’s never come up before so we’re not sure. What have you all done in the past when you’ve had X happen?” and get input from other professionals, or I can reach out to resources at SHRM or something.

          Basically, if the resources to support you don’t exist within your company, I’d look outside your company and see if you can find similar resources to tap.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            +1 to this. See if there’s a professional group that handles what you handle and ask the company to pay for you to join.

        2. Lil Fidget*

          It’s also useful feedback in that now you know this boss is not someone it’s “safe” to talk through ideas or seem less than certain to. He’s judging you for it, and he’s talking about it with others. My old boss was the same way in that he hated it when I sounded unsure, even when the situation was literally ambiguous. I just shifted my behavior and didn’t bring stuff to him until I was reasonably confident, and I talked out my thought process with a different colleague from then on.

        3. Hillary*

          That’s a conversation you can have with your manager. I’m not sure about this wording, but “I’m new to the role and I’m learning compliance areas with legal ramifications for the company. Is there an expert who can review my decisions to make sure we’re protected while I’m learning the ropes?”

          Basically in this situation make sure your manager knows why you’re hesitating. Confidence comes with experience (and training – is there outside training you can go to?). Also if you have access to outside experts use them. In my particular field of compliance our partners are always thrilled to teach because an informed customer is less work for them in the long run.

          1. Anon for today*

            There are outside partners but they charge by the hour and we’re on a spending lockdown.

            There are also industry organizations but asking questions in their forums etc is very public (no anonymous postings) Since I have not been in this industry very long, I simply dont have the network/connections to be able to ask on the backside. :(

  13. Cute Li'l UFO*

    I got the job I interviewed for last week! Initially I had heard I hadn’t gotten the position but something happened with the other candidate (that I don’t know more about) but my first day was great. I unfortunately got rear-ended the day before but I’m otherwise alright.

      1. Cute Li'l UFO*

        It looks to me to be. The other driver punctured something that might have been coolant/radiator and the hood had a nice crumple in it. 19 year old who was following too closely and I had to brake for a bike. Just called his insurance the other day and going through all that other fun stuff.

        My first car accident!

  14. AeroEngineer*

    So after 9 months of job searching, I have an invite to an assessment center in two months.

    Problem is, is that I have been to assessment centers before, and I have never ever gotten an offer from them. I really really want this job as well, so I want this to be a success.

    Does anyone have any tips or tricks?

    1. DMLOKC*

      I’m in the aerospace industry but I’ve never heard of an assessment center. What’s that?

      1. AeroEngineer*

        It is like a day long interview where some is solo and some is team work, and it ranges from giving presentations, to working on a small case study as a team to getting 60 pages of data in front of you and having to give a presentation about it in an hour. I guess it is more a European thing, as even though I have done some in the USA, it was with a European company.

        I am applying for a specific program, but I know that some companies (like the last one I did) mix programs together, so it doesn’t mean that I will be with people who would later be my colleagues.

        From a hiring point of view I get why they do it, but I seem to be really bad at them as a candidate.

        1. PX*

          I’ve done one, also didnt get the offer but it wasnt something I particularly wanted anyway so no big deal. Do a lot of research, as you said, it tends to be more of a European thing, but there is lots of advice out there. They should prep you beforehand or at the very least on the day-of with what the agenda will look like and what kind of tasks you’ll have. Things to definitely focus on (in my experience) is the case study and the group exercise. Whatever else gets thrown at you (eg a standard interview as well), be prepared for those 2 elements as they weight the most typically.

        2. ProbablyNotASandwich*

          A big thing to remember – that a surprising number of people don’t – is that you are on show and being interviewed for the WHOLE day, from when you arrive through breaks for coffee right through to being waved out the door at the end. A reasonable number of people eliminate themselves from the running by stopping their “interview” face when they’re not in a room with the assessors.

  15. Another Lawyer*

    What are good places for causal work clothes/pieces to look for?

    I’m a mid career female lawyer and have a very formal dress code. I dress fairly formulaicly – black sheath dress with a blazer or jacket, or a nice blouse with a suiting skirt from Ann Taylor or St. John. It makes getting dressed painless and I always look professional.

    However, Fridays, and really August in general, are much more casual in my office. In the winter I swap out the blouse for a crewneck sweater and still wear a St. John skirt, but I am struggling with summer casual. I wouldn’t mind, except that people still comment on how formally I am dressed.

    I prefer outfits that are easy to put together (dresses with sleeves would be great) and relatively modest (no exposed shoulders, pretty close to the knee, fairly loose, no cut outs, etc).

    1. SoCalHR*

      I’ve gotten a few great dresses from Amazon (believe it or not). One in particular is a short sleeved, solid color, slight v neck dress made of nice/thick jersey type material….(with pockets! I’m always excited about that). Anyway, not sure that is specifically what you’re looking for, but they have a lot of options so maybe look there. Also, my tip is look at the size chart but also read all the reviews because they clue you into how the dress really fits.

        2. SoCalHR*

          the links may not have gone through (or could be in moderation) but here are the descriptions of a couple:
          FENSACE with Pockets, Womens Short Sleeve Casual Flare A Line Midi Dress

          HUHOT Women Short Sleeve Round Neck Summer Casual Flared Midi Dress

          1. It'sNan*

            I own the Fensace dress, and have contemplated buying it in all the colors. Super cute, super comfy, but still looks professional enough. You can also always put a cardigan, wrap, or some such thing over it, too.

      2. MusicWithRocksInIt*

        I second the Amazon thing! They have great basics on prime! I’ve gotten some really good professional looking work tops and some really nice summer weight cardigans. I find I usually return maybe one out of three things, but the return process is really easy. Just make sure you stick with prime and don’t accidentally order anything from china. The sizes are not the same.

      3. Lily Rowan*

        I have similar-sounding dresses from Lands End (although they mostly don’t have pockets). That might thread the needle for you.

      4. AliceBD*

        Talbots! They often have cute dresses (not every time and different stores cannhave vastly different inventory). And everything is conservatively styled.

        1. periwinkle*

          I pretty much live in Talbots. Talbots is casual without ever being really casual, if you know what I mean. Their prints can be somewhat dowdy, though. Today I wore dark blue Talbots trousers with a Talbots stretchy tank top and elbow-sleeve cardigan. Okay, and bright fuschia shoes because a gal has to have some fun… (but at least they were Clarks, right?) They have a lot of nice dresses which are conservative but not formal. You’ll never show much cleavage in Talbots clothing…

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      You can also swap blazers for short or 3/4 sleeved cardigans. And, if you like them, pants; even suit pants will read as slightly less formal than a skirt or dress.

    3. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      If it’s that casual on Fridays, could you get away with a well fitted crew neck or v neck t-shirt? Either in a solid color or a simple pattern.

      I work in marketing for a law adjacent organization, so I admit we are probably more lax in our everyday dress code than you are, but I wear plain t-shirts with pencil skirts a lot.

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      New York and company has great cropped pants for summer. I picked up like 5 pairs. A few with patterns that I pair with a solid shirt and a few solids with pattern shirts. Super easy. Ann Taylor Loft has similar. NYC also had great cotton sheath dresses (with pockets) for this summer. I have several. They are great with flats or easy enough to dress up with heels when I have to. Also…POCKETS.

    5. When it rains*

      Loft! You’ll find lovely dresses and more casual versions but pretty versions of what you’re already wearing.

    6. CTT*

      Boden! They have a lot of great dresses that would definitely fit what you want with being covered while still being summery. It’s a little on the expensive side, but they have good sales, and the quality of the clothes is great.

      1. Harriet M. Welsch*

        Attorney here, and agree with all of this! I have had great luck with Boden, especially their dresses.

          1. Book Lover*

            Is Boden good for all sizes? I am short and curvy and love Boden for my kids but haven’t bought anything for myself.

            1. Ron McDon*

              They do short, regular and long lengths in most trousers and dresses, and I think they do petite length in some tops too.

              Their sizing goes up to a size 20 UK (I think?) and the UK site has good explanations about the fit of each item – they say if you should order up or down a size.

              I love Borden clothes, very good quality and their sales are amazing.

    7. Anonaswell*

      This place really varies (some collections are better than others), but White Hous Black Market might have what you are looking for.

    8. Emily S.*

      I really like to wear pretty blouses that are sleeveless, and pair them with light 3/4 sleeve sweaters (e.g. the Jackie sweater from J.Crew). That way, I can take off the sweater when I go to lunch on hot days, but look nice and professional while I’m working.

      I have found nice sleeveless blouses at TJ Maxx.

    9. Upstream Arch*

      Go for dresses! Dresses are easy and comfortable, you don’t have to worry about mixing and matching separates, blah blah blah. Department stores like Bloomingdale’s, Neiman Marcus, and Nordstrom have free personal shopper services which are excellent for dilemmas like this. I have used personal shoppers before and have been really happy with them. For your work situation, quality is going to be key – good tailoring, fabrics that aren’t going to be too sheer or clingy, etc. If you’re comfortable with St. John-type prices, look at MaxMara or Kate Spade. At a lower price point, I love Cos – they have a lot of stuff that won’t fit what you’re looking for, but a lot of really great, interesting dresses and separates. Hobbs (UK-based but now in the US) also has lovely stuff. I’ve heard good things about Of Mercer, but haven’t bought anything from them yet. I would normally suggest Brooks Brothers, but I worry that you’re going to walk in and realize that you’re in the same outfit as half of the junior associates.

    10. Jiji the Cat*

      Uniqlo! They have great lightweight trousers and skirts for summer, and nice versatile blouses. Lots of dresses with sleeves and modest tops too.

    11. Lily Rowan*

      My office is business casual in general, and I wear a lot of less-formal dresses, but when I’m getting more casual than that, I’ll do capri pants, or a casual fabric skirt (denim, linen, etc.), with a nice t-shirt. Or a much more casual dress, from the places already mentioned.

    12. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      Do you even want to wear business casual? You don’t sound excited to go shopping or like you are uncomfortable in what you are already wearing. If it’s just a few people making remarks, why go to all of the time, trouble and expense?

      My hot take: It never hurts to dress a bit more formally, especially as a woman. Better to be seen as stuffy but serious than to wear things you don’t feel confident about.

      You’ve got a work uniform that takes little thought, is appropriate, reads as serious, and that you already own. Why mess with it?

      1. Another Lawyer*

        This was absolutely the comment I needed! Everyone’s suggestions have been super helpful, but I don’t really care for clothes shopping, and I really am dreading all of the time and expense.

        Thanks for the validation that it’s fine to always be a little formal!

      2. Ms Ida*

        Agreed, if you are comfortable stick with it. If you do want to make some minor changes to head off comments maybe as you are replacing summer pieces just a variation in color from your usual more formal winter colors might help? I think the same blouse or blazer in black will read very differently than a lighter color or print. Maybe even a little bit of a change in accessories between seasons.

    13. JustaCPA*

      I’m a big fan of Chicos
      https://www.chicos.com/store/product/pinstriped+ponte+tee/570238848?color=001&catId=cat40036

      Talbots also has some chic more casual options – not sure if this one would be TOO casual?
      https://www.talbots.com/online/new-arrivals/denim-shift-dress-prdi46518/N-10588?selectedConcept=&akamai-feo=off

      but then they also have dresses like this:
      https://www.talbots.com/online/dresses/glen-plaid-sheath-dress-prdi46702/N-10189?selectedConcept=&akamai-feo=off

      and New York and Co has some great things and much lower prices:
      https://www.nyandcompany.com/7th-avenue-indigo-button-accent-sheath-dress/A-prod14540009/?An=102626&prodNo=26

      https://www.nyandcompany.com/7th-avenue-bow-accent-dot-print-twofer-sheath-dress/A-prod14750029/?An=102626&prodNo=28&selectedColor=BERRY%20RED (wear with a sweater cardigan to bring the formality factor down a notch)

    15. Legal Rugby*

      I’ve had good luck with Banana Republic for some pieces that I can wear on days I’m not in court/meetings. Stuff that isn’t very obviously not my normal wear, but that is pretty comfortable. I’m over 6 foot, and mostly wear slacks and button downs in the office, but I have some cute dresses from them.

    17. OperaArt*

      My usual plug for eShakti. They offer dresses custom made to your measurements, and you get to select the hem length, sleeve length, and neckline. And the dreses have pockets! Real pockets that can hold a cell phone and keys at the same time.

      1. uranus wars*

        I have ordered 3 dresses and one pants-suit from them and each has been a bomb. It makes me sad.

      2. BahahaBlackSheep*

        I have had great luck with them as well! I’ve definitely made some of their summer dresses a bit closer to business-casual than their original form by changing sleeves, neckline and length.

    18. Hillary*

      I second Loft for more casual, although Loft is on the dressy end for my current office. I’m wearing jeans, a logo golf shirt, and Toms today. A looser cut will look less formal – flowy blouses or tunics can be great (especially with prints). Taking your shoes down a notch can also make the whole outfit less formal, maybe throw in a colored shoe, open toe, or a bootie on Friday. If you’re interested in wearing pants, skinny ankle pants with heels and a tunic or 3/4 sleeve blazer are a great look that doesn’t take a lot of effort.

    19. Delta Delta*

      Also a lawyer. I like Joules dresses – some are quite summery while still being conservative. I also like Banana Republic, mostly for their good sales. My best ever dress is a DVF wrap dress. I’m considering asking to be buried in it. I spend most of the summer in dresses with cardigans and heeled sandals. Where I work this is perfectly acceptable to wear to court (state court, obvs.) Also, when I dress this way, clients tend to find (and remark) that I look professionally dressed, but still seasonal.

      Also, the “what should women lawyers wear” debate continues to rage on. I’m going to continue to wear what makes me feel professional and confident.

    20. Grouchy 2 cents*

      J.Jill. They have business casual stuff and just plain business stuff (no suits per se but lots of separates that pair well). They’re usually decent quality and they’re always having sales and they offer the same stuff in petite and plus sizes. I will say the pants run crazy long though.

    21. Operational Chaos*

      Nordstrom Rack. They’re a great go to for both formal attire, blouses, and solid basics. I’ve also had great luck with their makeup and jewelry sections.

    22. Could be Anyone*

      I’m a paralegal in a fairly conservative, stuck in the past type of law firm. I’m significantly younger than most of the people here (and I’m in my 30s), and I happen to be very tall and very large-chested, so I tend to err pretty far on the business side of business casual when I’m at work. I like Loft or Banana Republic dresses (they come in tall sizes so I can still find some close to knee length) or a pencil skirt (I get the stretchy pull on kind and to me it’s close to pajamas) and a short sleeve or sleeveless shell/shirt/blouse whatever. I keep a blazer and 1-12 cardigans in my office in case I need to look professional.

    23. uranus wars*

      I get a lot of my summer work-appropriate dresses from Banana Republic or the BR Factory Store; this summer they actually had some with sleeves. They also have some nice light weight skirts and sweaters that are probably like the crew necks you wear in cooler months.

      And believe it or not I also just got a nice 3/4 sleeve sheath from Old Navy for about $15. Even though I am only 5’8″I order a tall from the website – it hits the top of my knee caps so I can wear it to the office.

    24. PetticoatsandPincushions*

      LL Bean has some lovely dresses that are well made- many are sleeveless but pair nicely with cardigans. Someone also suggested Uniqlo and I heartily agree, especially this season they are all about below knee hemlines and sleeves which is great, and their price point sits at a great place for me personally- higher than fast fashion but not yet even at Banana Republic levels.

    25. AMPG*

      I bought a couple of science themed summer dresses from Svaha and have been wearing them for casual Fridays at work. They’re cute and incredibly comfortable (with pockets!) but I don’t know if they’re outside your comfort zone.

    26. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Brooks Brothers offers some nice separates. I have a tunic-length, 3/4 sleeve top, white linen with a bold black stylized floral design, that’s been on heavy rotation for me this summer. I’m not a skirt/dress wearer, but I know that BB’s skirts tend to a conservative length.

  16. Lil Fidget*

    I have started a new job after a long search (and thank God, a month off before I had to start). Now I’m enduring all the awkward cringe-inducing discomfort of starting over in a new place after being respected and well-liked at my last job. It’s hard to feel like you’re back at the bottom and everybody else knows more than you. There are also some weird undercurrents that I’m not sure if I’m imagining or what. Wish me luck at pushing through the initial discomfort of change!!!

    1. Purple soda*

      I had that feeling too, Lil Fidget. That first month awkwardness is horrible. Hope it goes away soon!

    2. Lumen*

      Been there. Chances are you are not imagining it, but the right attitude for now is “not my circus, not my monkeys”.

      I’m sure you’ll do great! And good luck – starting anew can be really tough.

    3. Media Buyer*

      I’m in the same boat right now and this was exactly what I needed to see today to know I’m not alone in it. Best of luck to you!

    4. Quinalla*

      I hate that awkwardness when I started the job I’m in now. Long gone, but I was so frustrated that I wasn’t already good at everything and such a newbie at the systems and tools at my new place. It was mostly over in the first month and a few more kind after the first three months.

  17. Nervous Accountant*

    Episode 128973123 of how can I stop being so myself…

    There’s a new guy starting about a week or so. I don’t interview but I do train new hires once they come on board. Outside of tax season we do a 7-10 day training session to bring new hires up to speed and typically sit them next to someone who’s been here for a while so that person is there for any day to day questions.

    I was talking to our in house recruiter about other stuff and she mentioned that this new guy has a lot of great qualifications and everyone loved him, but his references said that his flaw may be “doesn’t play well in the sandbox” or something like that. Know it all was thrown around too. I just laughed and said no biggie.

    Uhmmm….yeah so here’s the thing–I really suck with new people. Socially, professionally, I am just super awkward. I’m not one of those people that’s super charming and gregarious and puts people at ease in the first few seconds/minutes of meeting them. I’m more like Shrek…really grumpy/prickly but once you get to know me, I’m pretty OK lol.. and this shows with my work relationships….people I was standoffish with in the beginning, I have a pretty decent relationship with now.

    Anyway, so I’m basically nervous that this guy may turn out to be like the last new guy (a constant boundary pusher, and a little bit sexist).

    Training is a huge part of my job so it goes w/o saying that I really can’t not do it. I want to strike a balance between being welcoming and helpful but not have htem look down on me or think they can say/do whatever b/c it’s just me (seriously…new guy. And another guy a long time ago who was eating cake and cracking jokes during his first week in training or new girl who looked like she was about to fake-cry and say “omg they moved me to your team whyyyyyyy the horrorrrrr”).

    I want to be a good trainer, but be nice and not take bullsh*t.

    1. Afiendishthingy*

      Sorry, I don’t really have advice, but this sounds like a shitty situation and I’m giving the hiring manager major side eye for hiring a guy known not to “play well with others”.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Ehh I wouldn’t say it’s a shitty situation but after the last POS guy I am super wary. He presented well during the interviews and has everything else everyone wanted so idk. I’m sure it’ll be ok, Mayne I’m just overthinking. It.

        1. En vivo*

          No, it’s not a shitty situation, because nothing has happened between you and the new hire. I think it’s ok that you’ve been forewarned about him, but treat him like you would anyone else- until/unless he gives you reason not to.

          You might find him quite pleasant to work with (or not!) who knows :) If he tests you, deal with it right away. We train others how to treat us.

          Good luck!

        2. Afiendishthingy*

          I just meant it sounds like a shitty situation to have to train a new person who sounds like a jerk. I would not hire someone whose flaw is “not playing well with others.”

    2. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      I don’t have any helpful advice other than be direct, stand up for yourself. Being nice and welcoming doesn’t mean you have to allow jokes at your expense. New girl – just wow –

      I feel like a lot of your problems are because you’re adding rotten apples to the bunch. That’s a horrible first impression to make to the person training you. What terrible attitudes.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Cake guy was fired a few weeks later so good riddance. New girl quit last week (3 months in) so oh well.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        I mean we have 100+ people. So there’s bound to be a few bad ones. Most of the new people are good though.

        1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

          WOW! That’s a much bigger office than I though you had! Yeah 2 rotten apples out of a larger new hire class isn’t really uncommon. Don’t be afraid to shut down negative behavior. You’re a valuable resource and the trainees should treat you that way.

          For what it’s worth – I don’t play well with others – and was pretty generally disliked in my first public accounting job (I am not into frat culture) but have been very popular and well liked in all of my jobs since then.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Yeah! it was very small before but it’s grown a lot over the years. This is my first long term job, and I really REALLY struggled to fit in the beginning… thanks to the high turnover so the crappy people left, and other factors at play, that’s not the case anymore.

    3. LilySparrow*

      You can say “no” to things and ask people to not do things without being grumpy or prickly about it. Like, let the words do the job on their own without adding extra tone or emotion.

      My analogy is “telling the house rules to someone else’s kids.”

      Like, if my kids put their shoes on the sofa, I admonish them and make them go put their shoes away, because they know better. But when their friends come over, if they do it I just say, “Hey Bobby, please don’t put your shoes on the furniture, it’s a house rule.”

      You can tell them what not to do without making them feel bad about it.

      “Mike, please don’t eat while we’re training. Because it’s distracting and crumbs get in the widgets.”

      You can be friendly without being a pushover. It takes practice sometimes, but one thing that helped me was when I realized I was working from a default setting of defensiveness, kind of assuming people were trying to take advantage of me. As I got more confident in my ability to set reasonable boundaries, I also got more chill about it and give people the benefit of the doubt. Now I assume that most people want to be helpful and constructive, and do things well. And I can just give them feedback on how we can work well together.

      Like, eating and cracking jokes aren’t inherently evil. I’ve been in some trainings it meetings where that’s normal. But it bothers you. That’s valid! You’re entitled to set the tone when you’re running things. But if people are doing unhelpful or distracting things, it’s probably not a deliberate effort to be rude.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I agree I don’t think they are evil either. the attitude of the person was that they were too comfortable way too quickly and maybe they thought they were too good for us. Those were just concrete examples I could point to.

  18. AnonForThis*

    Also, interviewed an uptalker yesterday and wanted to claw my eyes out.

    And? I’d be great for this job? Because of my experience? And my personality? Is so bubbly (yes, she used “bubbly”)? And that? Makes me a great fit.

    2. Recreational Moderation*

      Oh, lord. Uptalk and the dreaded vocal fry just make me want to stick sharp objects in my ears.

    3. Lissa*

      Oh man, I’ve read all the articles on why it’s sexist and bad to not like uptalk but it still grates on me no matter how much reframing I do.

      1. Quiet Observer*

        I have similar issues with the use of uptalk, vocal fry, and vaguely childishly high pitched voices. We interviewed someone who had the fry thing and her voice got quieter and deeper. You almost couldn’t hear her at the end of her answers. Problem is, these position are for public speaking, education, and training roles. If I can’t hear you clearly in a small meeting room with just me and another interviewer, how will a room full of 40+ professionals respond to your voice???

      1. Jadelyn*

        Girl cooties, basically. (Not at the individual level, but society’s attitude overall toward those mannerisms is 110% a bias against young women, and that influences the individual dispreference for those mannerisms whether we want it to or not.)

        1. Thegs*

          I realize I’m playing with fire here, but intonation is a part of clear communication. If I’m talking to a vendor about their new teapot design, “I like it,” takes on the complete opposite meaning when you change the intonation.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Are you seriously saying that you literally cannot understand someone’s meaning if they use an uptalk intonation?

            Clear communication is definitely a good standard to have, and I’m not even necessarily against coaching an employee who uptalks, as long as it’s more about “this is how some people might perceive you, and there’s value in being able to code-switch enough to control people’s perceptions of you when you want to”, but that seems like an…extreme position to take, to me, and that makes me a wee bit suspicious of it as a justification for bashing an intonation pattern that also, coincidentally, just so happens to be very very strongly associated with femininity.

            1. Thlayli*

              It makes it sound like you’re asking questions. Which makes it sound like you’re not sure of yourself or anything else. And when you realise that the person doing the uptalk is not in fact asking questions then you have to constantly reframe everything they are saying because your brain keeps hearing the question tone and thinking it’s a question. It turns a simple conversation into an exhausting exercise in mental concentration.

              So yeah, it is a tad annoying.

          2. The New Wanderer*

            Not Thegs, but I would guess the unclear communication is sounding like someone is asking a question or otherwise requiring conversational feedback/confirmation instead of stating something as a declarative sentence that doesn’t require a response. One of the common responses to uptalk is “are you asking me or telling me?”

          3. Ann O.*

            Except that there are large parts of the country (such as where I grew up) where uptalk is part of the regional accent. Somehow we all still manage to understand tone and distinguish between statements and answers just fine.

      2. LCL*

        To (older) people who learned English as their first language while in the United States, it can sound childish while at the same time condescending. There is a gender based aspect of what we find annoying about it. Generally women sound more childish then condescending, men sound more condescending than childish. Think David Spade’s public speaking persona, or David Sedaris’ or the ‘Phoebe voice’ from Friends, all sound condescending and mocking. It’s the talk radio snark voice. I don’t see this as a bias against young women, though many people do.

  19. Namast'ay in Bed*

    Is there a polite way to say “is this request actually urgent or would you just prefer if you got it sooner”? This has been an ongoing issue that has only been exacerbated by my team being (temporarily) understaffed due to vacations and we’re juggling a cavalcade of high-priority projects only for people to come out of the woodwork and say that their normal-priority project that wasn’t due for two more weeks suddenly needs to be done today.

    I’ve been mostly sticking to some version of “if this is high-priority please update its priority and due date [in our tracking system]. It’s currently slated to be finished on [future date] and has been prioritized as such with our projects. Thanks!”, which at least gets the change formally documented, it just sucks that we’re getting so many last-minute high-priority requests, and I get the feeling that a lot of these expedited requests are more personal preference than actual business need.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Does your team have a metric or rubric for how to rank requests/prjecys by priority? My work has a break down of what makes a request low, high, or critical that includes a range of variables (due date, price/contract value, level of impact on client, whether or not there’s an available work around if the request is a bug fix, etc) . That way when someone marks something as “high”, they can take a look and either say, yup! that’s high, or say, Are you sure? Please show your work on why you think this is a high level request. Then they either downgrade the request to low, or get information on the request that the requester initially left out.

      To answer your actual question – I think what you’re saying is already fine. I might leave it less open/leading, but that’s about it. So, “Your request has been received and is slated to be finished on [future date] based on the priority of all currently scheduled projects. If the needs of your project change, please update your request and alert the team. Thanks!

    3. BRR*

      I have a variety of tools I use for this:
      -get background on the request. This helps to know if it’s actually urgent and if they sat on the request before asking me
      -if one person has more than one request I ask them prioritize them
      -say my capacity won’t allow it and ask if there is a specific part of the request I can answer more quickly

      I have to constantly push back that I monitor my request queue, not others. Thankfully my manager trusts me to prioritize my work

    4. Key Lime Pie*

      I assume that no one has any idea how long it will take to do what they’re asking, or how to ask us to prioritize it. I ask, “Do you have a deadline?” Often they don’t. When they do, we talk about how soon before the deadline they need something from us, and if we can provide everything they’re asking for by that time.

      If you’re working in more of a ticketing system, I think Purple soda’s idea is good.

    5. Independent George*

      Does your team have any authority to reset the priority of the request, or is there some defined criteria for establishing priorities? It sounds like the requesters are simply adding a due date, then changing it without consulting you first. If that’s the case, the solution is systemic, not just a diplomatic response.
      There needs to be some ownership of assigning priorities from your team. Other teams should not dictate how much you can accomplish and by when, especially when you’re understaffed. It may help to assign a team lead to triage requests or reassign priority to align with your teams resources.

    6. Gumby*

      “so many last-minute high-priority requests”

      I’d be hugely tempted to find large posters with “A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part” and hang them everywhere.

      But if you insist on being professional about it, is there any way you can push some of this back on the last-minute requestor? “Right now the team is very busy working on the project for Fergus which is due to our biggest client on Monday and our second priority is Jane’s project which has a hard deadline of next Wednesday. If you’d like us to move your request to the top, you need to get either Fergus or Jane to okay it.”

    7. LGC*

      At least you have a formal system!

      For internal requests, I’ve just stuck to, “Hey, I can do this by X right now, what time do you need it by?” In that way, I’m asking the person what time they need it by, and communicating that my time isn’t infinite and I have other priorities.

      But then again, my coworkers and upper management are usually reasonable about asking me for things. In the case you work with glass bowls: I’d pleasantly explain that…well, gee, you have a LOT of last minute requests, so you really can’t push this up unless there’s an actual business need. And even then it’ll be a crunch.

      Basically, I’d stick with Purple soda’s strategy and possibly escalate to making them explain why (like BRR) if they’re especially demanding. But even giving a set deadline helps!

      Also, how many requests do you get, and how responsive are you? I’d also explain that YOU’RE probably going to have some delays because of your staffing.

      (Of course, adjust your tone as necessary. With people I’ve worked with on a regular basis, I’m pretty informal in my language, so my exact wording might not work for you.)

  20. Anon for this*

    When I started my job 5 years ago, there was a beloved employee named Wakeen, an older guy who had been there for years and had a wealth of knowledge and experience. There are some physically demanding aspects of this job, and multiple people lectured me to take care of Wakeen and don’t let him hurt himself. Wakeen had some chronic health problems and would sometimes overdo it at work, exacerbate his health problems, and then have to take sick days to recover. It made me uncomfortable because it felt condescending to make assumptions about what he could or couldn’t do. I would offer to do physical tasks for him, but I didn’t argue or insist on doing it if he said, “No thanks.”

    Wakeen has since retired and now I am the most out of shape person in the department. I am quite overweight and have some joint pain, but nothing that precludes me from doing my job. I am also the shortest person here and have difficulty reaching some things, though I find a way when I need to. It seems as though people have started assuming that I can’t do certain physical things. They will offer to do things and be persistent even when I say, “That’s ok, I got it.” Sometimes the person on the shift before mine will do a certain task that’s hard for me (mainly because of my height but it also involves climbing ladders) at the end of his shift so I don’t have to do it on my shift, even though I haven’t asked and I regularly do it myself.

    Nobody has come right out and said, “I did this for you because I don’t think you’re capable of doing it,” and it’s not unheard of to do something extra to help out the next shift. I do extra work to help out the next shift all the time (different things than what they have been doing for me), probably more than anyone else, so I am grateful when other people return the favor and I don’t want to complain about it, but I’m worried that they are doing it because they think I can’t. I am starting to wonder if they are now having those conversations about me that they used to have about Wakeen, “Take care of Jane, don’t let her hurt herself.” I should note that I have never had to take a sick day to recover from something I did at work, and I pass my company physical every year with no restrictions.

    I don’t know if I should say something when people do physical things for me. I don’t have a problem with people helping me out, per se, because I do the same for everyone else, but I’m concerned they’re doing it for the wrong reasons. Then again, maybe I’m wrong and it’s just a coincidence that they are choosing to do the more physically demanding tasks because I am better at the other things. I’m afraid if I say something, they’ll get mad that I’m ungrateful and then never do anything nice for me again (and I do appreciate not having to do these things, because they are quite difficult for me, but I can and will do them when I need to). I’m afraid that if I don’t say anything, though, that people will start to think that I’m not capable of doing my job, even though I am.

    1. Postdoc problems*

      If they are helping only with the things that you actually do struggle with, I wouldn’t worry about it. It sounds like you work somewhere where everyone tries to look out for each other. You can try to do extra of other physical tasks when that happens so that they can see you are capable of doing physical work if you are concerned. If they are taking over a large part of your job it is different and you may want to address it with them.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah I don’t really see the problem. You genuinely do find those things difficult and they are doing them for you, without you having to ask. That’s nice. It sounds like you all look out for each other. It sounds like they didn’t fire Wakeen even though he was physically incapable of doing a lot of the job, so it doesn’t seem like the type of company that’s going to drop you if they think you can’t do your job, so I don’t really see why this is a problem. People are just paying it forward. In physical jobs most people are eventually going to reach a stage where they can’t do all of it. So it’s nice that the youngins are taking on the more difficult bits voluntarily, and hopefully the new youngins will do the same for them in years to come.

        Your workplace sounds awesome.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Yeah, that’s kinda annoying. I’d say something like “I promise, if I need help I will ask for it”. Then just get back to work. But do actually ask for help if you need it. If it continues, a breezy “I’m not Wakeem! I’ve got this!” might jolt them into awareness.

      1. Anna Held*

        Something similar happens to me, but I’ve learned to roll with it. I can’t magically make myself taller or stronger, so if there’s someone else around who can do something easily that I’d physically struggle with, why punish myself? It can be downright dangerous when you start pushing the “I have to do everything myself” mindset too far. No, I can’t handle that 50 pound box, so let’s get help.

        I agree that it sounds like you’re in a place where everyone looks out for each other, and so it does become almost foolish or insulting when you turn down well-meant help. They don’t want you to struggle or feel like you can’t depend on them. You help the next shift too! People see the totality of your work. They know who’s on the ball, who does their work well, who helps out others. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. If you feel guilty, identify your strength and volunteer to help your helpers with that task.

        And always, always take care of yourself! Neither your pride nor your job is worth a serious injury.

    3. Biscuits*

      I don’t think anyone is sending about memos about you, yet. I work in a job that requires a fair amount of bending, and I know that it’s not super pleasant for one of my coworkers to get down & do it, so if I have spare time on my shift, that’s often what I’ll do. Not because I doubt that she can, but because if my goal is to ease some of the burden from her, why not do the thing I know she’d benefit most from having done by someone else?

  21. Small but Fierce*

    My husband will probably accept a promotion that will move us from Florida to Connecticut. I’ve only been working professionally 3 years, and I’ve been at this company for a year. I followed my current manager to a different department, so I’ve only been in this role a month. That said, she managed me in my prior role and offered me a promotion to keep me on her team.

    Our small team is spread across the country, so my job could be remote. The company is fairly flexible when it comes to changing offices, but I’ve heard mixed things when it comes to working from home. There’s an office in CT that’s an hour from where my husband will be based, so it’s possible that we could find a home at the midway point. That said, my preference would be working from home since I’d be the sole team member in that state regardless.

    When should I tell my manager about my husband’s job offer? How can I ask to work remotely? Is it too optimistic to hope that they’ll let me, given I’ve only been in this role a month? I’m currently thinking I could offer to stay in FL until January 2019 while searching for CT jobs if they shut down the remote work idea, but that’s not ideal.

    Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Holly*

      On a personal note, you really should be having this conversation with your husband so you know how sure he is in wanting to accept the offer and you both will be on the same page in terms of where you would like to live. You should also be discussing *what you should do about your job* if you cannot keep the one you have now. That’s really important to have an extremely honest conversation about.

      For work, please talk to them as soon as possible!! Like, yesterday! If they absolutely can’t accomodate your move, that has to be discussed with your husband before he accepts the offer. Just explain what you just said here – your husband is highly considering accepting an offer to CT and you’d have to move – you really enjoy working there, and had no idea that you would be moving so soon (if that’s true – if you knew this was a possibility and you just started a new job without communicating that, that’s not the greatest) and if there’s anything they can do to accomodate that including you working remotely or in the CT office.

      1. Small but Fierce*

        Thanks for your reply! My husband and I have discussed all the possibilities and he is on board with me working in FL until January 2019 while looking for CT jobs. We’re in a good place financially, so we could afford me being out of work for at least 6 months if it doesn’t work out as we had hoped. It was implied to my husband that his company would be motivated to hire me as well if he made the move, but I’d prefer staying at my current company if it can be helped. I was at my past company for a little less than 2 years, so I know my resume is already looking spotty in terms of job hopping.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      When I wanted to move because of my partner’s PhD, I said very matter-of-factly to my boss that this was the plan and I wanted to discuss the possibility of working remotely. There were very few people at my company who worked from home, but it wasn’t unprecedented. She took in the information and got back to me. I did not offer to do anything at that point, though I would have stayed in the area if she had said no. I think I may have said that I would be basing my plans based on her answer, meaning I would prefer to stay with the company and could delay my move, but I was definitely moving at some point. It turned out to be easier than I expected, to be honest.

      Basically, treat it like you’re raising the question, not like you’ve made a decision. In fact, you’re in a great spot to do that, as your husband hasn’t yet accepted this promotion. You can even frame it as waiting for your job’s decision before you move forward with your plans.

      1. Small but Fierce*

        While it is true that he hasn’t formally accepted, I think we’re essentially at that point. He has to give them a decision early next week, so it would feel a bit disingenuous to tell her we’d base the decision on what she said. I wished I brought it up sooner, but he interviewed 3 weeks ago, then we went on a 2 week vacation out of the country. He received the offer while we were away, so it was very fast.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Present a business plan with Option A: working entirely remotely and Option B: working at the CT office.

      For A, explain all the usual telework requirements: you will keep standard business hours, you have robust internet and/or equipment (describe company-supplied equipment and anything you need to supplement – monitors, printer, etc.), you have a dedicated phone (cell or landline) for business, you will send any required daily/weekly/monthly reports of your activities. Also note that you can come into the CT office as needed, say for special meetings or to use equipment (like a large print job on the big copier). Explain how you will conduct business as usual regardless of location.

      Option B would be a formal request to transfer to the CT office. You still report to your Florida supervisor and are considered her remote employee, or are assigned to a CT manager with the Florida boss as your Task Lead.

      Check with HR or the company handbook on the proper procedure to implement either request: forms, approvals needed, payroll/tax changes due to different state requirements.

    4. Celeste*

      Your manager seems like an ally. I think it would be okay to let her know it looks like your family is moving to CT and ask what that could mean for you staying with the company. I personally would wait until your husband accepts the promotion, but I’m sure others can argue telling sooner rather than later. I think you just have to know how serious his employer is and have a feeling for how your boss would handle the news, both things that aren’t obvious to us.

      I would not offer to live apart. I would also explain that the move would put you at least an hour away from the CT office. Living midway is just not going to be good for your family life, and neither is a serious commute. Really, if they want to keep you, they’re going to need to let you work remotely. You need this information mainly to know if you need to start CT job hunting now, and to plan a transition out of the role.

      Good luck! It sounds exciting.

      1. AMPG*

        I live in CT, and a 30-minute commute* is pretty standard, so if they find a midway point it shouldn’t be a big deal. My husband and I commute 20-30 minutes in different directions every day with no issue.

        *Do make sure to take local traffic into account, though. In some parts of CT what looks like 30 minutes on paper will actually be an hour during peak travel time.

    5. BRR*

      Like others have said wait until he accepts and has plans in place. I would then tell your manager your husband accepted a new position in Connecticut and say you enjoy your job and ask if it would be possible to continue in your position being a remote employee. Be prepared with a plan for that as it applies to your role (part of that might be offering to stay in Florida for a certain period of time). If you’re told that won’t be possible, ask if it would be possible to work out of the Connecticut office.

  22. AwkwardTurtle*

    I got a LinkedIn invite to connect with my ex-boyfriend of 8 years ago. I’ve ignored his request once before but this time I just blocked him for good. Anyone else have these awkward or cringe-worthy experiences?

    1. Nervous Accountant*

      Yeah my brothers ex gf who blocked me on all social media sent me multiple requests on LI. Howboutno

    2. Audiophile*

      Yup, I’ve gotten a few requests from an ex which I block for a long list of personal reasons. Keep on blocking.

    3. SoCalHR*

      You know how linkedin will do banner type ‘ads’ on your page that says “you’re profile is being viewed” with a half visible picture of one of the viewers? Mine showed an ex from forever ago and it was funny because the way the photo is laid out it totally looks like he was peeking around the banner. Any other person and it wouldn’t have caught my eye, but it definitely looked like my ex was creeping on me via linked in (and I guess technically he was lol).

    4. Murphy*

      Yes! While I considered how to respond for a day or two, he withdrew the request, so I assumed he just imported all of his contacts and didn’t realize it would invite me. But more than once? Ugh.

      Non-work related, I had a former childhood friend/bully request me on FB multiple times and I blocked her after the second request.

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        When Facebook was still new, I got an email saying one of my ex’s friends (who I guess comes under former friend/bully) wanted to connect with me. I ignored that, but a couple of weeks later, someone else who I was still friends with sent me such a request, and I was fine with that one so created my account and then found the request from Ex’s Friend still waiting for me. The trouble was, Facebook had some weird issue at that time where if you tried refusing a request, it was treating it as unacknowledged, so every time I logged into Facebook after that it was still telling me I had a friend request from Ex’s Friend. In the end I asked Facebook to remove it for me.

    5. EmilyG*

      A while back I was honored for a professional thing and tweeted my thanks. (Which feels a little ooky, but everyone else does it.)

      Then a couple weekends ago my ex-husband liked that tweet… from April. Did he spend his Saturday night reading three+ months’ worth of my random tweets going back that far?

    6. LuJessMin*

      The manager that laid me off back in 2016 sent me a LinkedIn request about 6 months later (after she was told to quit or be fired). Part of me anted to accept so I could send her a message asking her why she laid me off, but instead I deleted the request.

    7. anonykins*

      I am estranged from my family of origin, except for one sibling. I have also blocked my mother on every form of social media because she has harassed me in the past. But I know she still snoops in any way she can because of LinkedIn. There’s that setting to make your profile-viewing activity on LinkedIn anonymous, which I assume she has turned on because she’s never showed up on that list. But there’s also a section where you can see the other profiles an anonymous person has viewed right after or before they viewed yours. I can see that she’s been viewing some other person that has my sibling’s name (my sibling doesn’t have LinkedIn). I’m 99% positive it’s my mother because I haven’t had the same last name as my sibling for a decade, and none of my professional contacts knows me by that last name.

    8. Anonaswell*

      I am not even kind of interested in job searching, so I just deleted my linked in. Too many inappropriate connection requests.

    9. Emily S.*

      I keep getting the most annoying emails from my ex-husband (who has since remarried). They’re all like, “Look at me, I lost tons of weight, got a new job and already a promotion, got fancy Rolex watches, blah blah blah…” I would block him, but I can’t, because we still have a joint loan (LONG story), so I need to be able to correspond with him about that. But my god, those emails are the worst — especially since I’m in a much leaner financial position that him.

      I know it’s all calculated to try and make me feel something, but I really don’t — I’m much happier now. (He was an alcoholic.)

    10. ThatGirl*

      My high school boyfriend – who I last saw 18 years ago and who I dumped rather unceremoniously – found me via LinkedIn and then found me on Twitter.

      It was…. weird.

    11. dorothy zbornak*

      a guy I went on ONE date with in 2012 did the following: had his DOG follow me on twitter, connected w/me on LinkedIn and then asked me to write him a recommendation (we had never worked together, we met at a bar). And what was even weirder he never asked me out for the second date so it’s not like I had rejected him.

    12. Alex the Alchemist*

      Yep. Dude I used to work with who harassed me and other women in the office was fired for exactly this reason. I blocked him on all social media, and emailed him that he absolutely needed to stop contacting me. He sent me an email stating he understood, but then a year later I got a last-ditch LinkedIn request from him. Nope!

    13. Fuzzy Pickles*

      Yes. Multiple times from the same ex. Was actually one of the contributing factors to changing my last name when I got married…

    14. LDP*

      My ex-boyfriend (who dumped me on Mother’s Day via text message, and instead of returning my phone calls proceeded to delete every trace of me from his social media accounts, down to even un-favoriting and un-retweeting a year’s worth of my tweets) looks at my LinkedIn page at least once a month. I finally set my own profile to be anonymous just so I wouldn’t get the notifications from him anymore. It’s been two years! Time to move on, buddy! *eye roll*

    15. Grapefruit Hero*

      Ugh, the same thing happened to me recently. It was enough to make me leave the site for good. It isn’t incredibly useful in my profession anyway, and right after we broke up he showed up at and called my work enough times for it to be considered harassment. It turned into this huge thing where I had to involve security and everyone at work had to be notified that he wasn’t to know if I was in the building. So, I was pretty terrified to think that he could know where I worked. I ended up deleting my account instead of blocking him, because it isn’t incredibly useful/important for my industry, anyway.

    16. Anonymosity*

      Ugh.
      So far, that hasn’t happened to me on LinkedIn. I doubt I would want to connect with an ex or former high school bully, especially not on a professional site.

    17. Windchime*

      I got a Linked-In request from the HR person who, with my ex-boss and ex-grand-boss, berated me for 2 hours after calling me into HR. I was a crying mess and actually had a panic attack while I was in there, but was afraid to leave because it seemed like they were documenting in order to fire me. And then after I finally quit, she sends me a LI request. Um, let’s make that a “nope”.

  23. Amber Rose*

    It’s gonna be 37 C out today, the weather is officially just listed as “smoke”, and my boss has decided to have a BBQ at lunch. I think this is banana crackers.

    In the meantime, I’m trying so hard to focus on work but my eyes are burning and stinging, my chest hurts and I want to claw my own throat right out. It’s inhumane to expect people to work under these conditions. :(

    1. Snark*

      Yeah, it’s really not great to have people outside when there’s heavy smoke. Given that the entire northern hemisphere is basically on fire right now, this is not a hard concept, and really shouldn’t be hard to figure out.

    4. Ann O.*

      It is inhumane. Is work providing rated face masks at least? (if not, they should be!)

      And that takes cluelessness/insensitivity to a whole new level to have a BBQ in an area that’s already on fire!

      1. Student*

        I live someplace in the same weather conditions as Amber Rose.

        That’s not a reasonable expectation. People can buy their own particulate masks for smoke. Employees can, no doubt, opt out of the BBQ lunch if they are struggling with smoke issues. It would be a very common thing to do.

        I don’t think you realize quite how many masks would be needed to cover the people in the regions affected by smoke. It’s an individual health concern, not something that we should look to our employers to deal with for us. If any larger organization is responsible for this kind of thing, you should ask local governments, healthcare providers, health insurers about providing masks to help stave off mass health issues from the smoke – not random employers.

        I personally think it’s a good idea to try to postpone BBQ type picnics until after the ash storms die down. They last a really, really, long time, though, so that’s got its own issues – we’d be picnic-less for most of the summer and fall if we let the smoke keep us indoors for its entire duration. Last year was bad too – we had a full month of permanent twilight due to ash in the air – but you can’t always just stay indoors that long.

        1. Ann O.*

          Random employers are the ones compelling their employees to work in specific places, so I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation at all.

          I also don’t think it’s accurate to label issues caused by the smoke as an individual health concern given that it’s a regional issue. At that level, the health issues are systemic, not individual. I do agree that local governments should be responsible before employers, though.

        2. Bex*

          N95 masks are super cheap in bulk. Like, 50 cents or less. So a company with 1000 employees could give them all a new mask each week for a month, and spend less than $2000. That’s an incredibly small investment to help keep your employees healthy and earn goodwill.

          Personally, every good company I’ve worked for has provided masks when air quality gets dangerous.

  24. Little Bean*

    I just accepted a role as supervisor for a new team of 3, including myself. However, our permanent office location is not ready and we are being given 3 temporary offices, one of which is in a different building from the other 2. Does anyone have suggestions for maintaining team cohesion with a geographical separation like this? We will have shared meeting spaces but may only see each other 1-2 times a week at meetings.

    I am thinking that my two employees should have the offices together so that neither feels isolated or preferred, and also because I am likely to be out of my office for various meetings more frequently than either of them. But this means that I can never observe them in action and that they don’t have easy access to consult with me about issues. I am thinking about instituting regular “check-ins”, in addition to staff meetings, which is just me dropping by their offices at the beginning or end of the day once or twice a week to see how things are going.

    1. Red Reader*

      Use a messaging system if you can to keep in contact. We do a daily email, here’s the priorities for today, joe please make sure you look at this, Mary please check that, Manager will be in meetings most of the day so contact Team Leads if you have an urgent question, etc. When I (one of the TLs) do the daily email, I include something like “Today is National Smore Day” or “What’s your favorite movie?” And about half the team responds in some fashion. Our boss puts in silly clip art and dog pictures. None of the extras take more than a couple seconds to glance over, but it keeps the emails from being a same-every-time template.

      (My team of 23 is fully remote and spread over about 300 miles, north to south :) )

    2. Susan K*

      I think your plan is good and you are right about giving your employees the two offices together. There are plenty of tools available (e-mail, phone, text, conference call, chat, Skype) to stay in communication with them. How far away is the third office? Is it close enough that you could walk over pretty quickly if they need to meet with you in person?

      1. Little Bean*

        Thanks for the tips! The buildings are not far from each other, less than a 5 minute walk probably.

    3. BRR*

      I’m a big proponent of one on ones so I think regular check ins would be good. A messaging system is helpful and maybe you schedule quick check in phone calls if that doesn’t seem excessive for your industry.

    4. CAA*

      I agree that your two employees should have the offices together, but in addition to the other suggestions, I think you should try to work in their building once in a while. See if there’s some space you can borrow for a few days, such as the office of someone who’s going on vacation or parental leave. I’m guessing conference rooms are at a premium, since that seems to be the case everywhere, but if you have an online scheduling system, maybe you can find a room that’s never booked on Monday mornings and work there for a half-day every other week.

    5. Nerfmobile*

      My manager is in a different state from me and our weekly 1:1s are key for keeping in touch. I highly recommend setting up at least a half hour each week with each of them individually.

  25. Postdoc problems*

    I have noticed that there are a good number of people in academia who read this site, so I am hoping that maybe some of you can give me advice. I am a first year postdoc in a biomedical field and it is not working out well. My PI has decided to shorted my appointment to one year, which I agree is the best move. I have not been generating much data. I tried to switch fields and join a brand new lab (PI is a first year faculty member). Helping get the lab up and running while also trying to learn new techniques and a new disease were too much for me. I do think that I can succeed in a more established lab that is closer to what I did in grad school, and my grad school PI agrees. My question is how do I move forward from this? I know that looking for a new position within a year of starting doesn’t look great. I am on track to getting a small first author paper from this lab, which I hope will help. I’m just not sure how to address my short stay here. Any advice is appreciated.

    1. Birch*

      Is it unusual to have a one-year postdoc in biomedical? I’m in psychology and it’s very normal to have a few short postdocs before a longer lecturer position (caveat: I’m also in Europe). I feel you though–I’m in my first postdoc in a young group trying to help set up a lab and not getting much done yet. I really don’t think this should hurt you though. Did you take the first position because you needed the job, or because you thought it was something it wasn’t? Either way, it’s totally understandable to say to potential future PIs that it didn’t quite match what you were looking for and that you’re excited to do work in an area that fits your skills and experience better.

      1. Postdoc problems*

        I’m really not sure how common it is. I know it happens, but generally postdocs stay for 2-3 years. I took this position because I was excited about the research question and I wanted the opportunity to expand my skillset. Originally, the project involved techniques that were very complementary to my past experience. Unfortunately, the project kept changing (which is common, I know) but has grown farther and farther from what I know how to do (and farther away from what I am actually interested in). I also thought that seeing what goes into setting up a lab would be useful so that I could see whether I actually want to stay in academia. To be fair, that actually was useful.

    2. Alice*

      Oof, it’s really good that you are still connected to your grad school PI. Can you use her network to find a new spot?
      Once you get to the interview stage — or maybe even before? — you could take the strategy of being really specific about what didn’t work out this year and why that problem won’t happen again. Maybe in a way that complements (and compliments) the lab you’re aiming for — not that you should call the old lab chaotic, but you could talk about “wanting to slot in to an established lab like this one and throw myself into learning your systems and techniques.”

      1. Postdoc problems*

        My grad school PI has been great. She is reaching out to her network to see if anyone is looking for a postdoc. She even told me to call her if I ever need a pep talk because she doesn’t want this experience to discourage me too much. I definitely don’t want to say anything bad about the current lab. I like everyone here and I think that if I were to have joined three years down the road it could have been completely different.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          I do think your current PI is screwing you over. They’re a new faculty (ie, they’re still working out how to run a lab and supervise postdocs), the project keeps changing, and they’re punishing you, a new postdoc in a new area of work, for not keeping up. An experienced supervisor would have looked at your CV and thought “A new postdoc, switching research areas and helping set up a new lab? Too much to expect.” and hired someone else. A more thoughtful supervisor would be actively working with you to figure out what you wanted to do next – a good bit of supervising a postdoc, particularly a junior one, is mentoring, not just using them for cheap labour. I do hope they get chastised by the tenure committee for not publishing enough while setting up a new lab.

          But the supportive grad supervisor is a major blessing here. She can vouch for your ability and work ethic, and also do the prep work of explaining why you’re applying again after a year. Send out a ton of applications, get the first author paper submitted and ask her for advice on what to say in interviews (My field doesn’t have labs in the same way, but I’d think that experienced faculty would understand that setting up a new lab while changing areas under the supervision of a new faculty member is a disaster waiting to happen.

    3. NotaPirate*

      Still just a grad student but I think you could explain it as wanting to try new research area and then realizing you wanted to go back to something more similar to your grad student work. The trying to setup a new lab stuff is such a pain, I can see how that alone would be a problem. We moved locations twice and each time I’ve lost at least a month to setting up equipment and training people.

      1. Postdoc problems*

        I actually helped move my grad school lab. It was a pain but it was no where near as bad as starting from scratch. I seriously underestimated how different it would be.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Just use your network. It’s not a big deal. Also, I’d advise against working for assistant professors. Way too risky.

      1. Postdoc problems*

        Yeah, I am definitely going to stay away from new labs this time. There is intense pressure to produce and fewer resources.

    5. Public health postdoc*

      I don’t think it’s a big deal to leave now, much better to cut your losses and go somewhere you have a better chance of achieving good outcomes. I’m now 7 years post-phd and have seen more than a few post docs who for various reasons, didn’t get outputs in their previous positions. Finding a good group, supervisor and mentor is so important, and if you’re not getting it where you are, get out! It’ll only be a real issue if you stay and have 2 years (or more) without good papers.

      Also, hang in there! Starting out as a new postdoc is hard, you’ve got so many things to learn and are very much at the bottom of the heap again. It does get better!!

  26. Nervous Accountant*

    Anyone here ever dyed their hair one of those crazy colors? How was it received at work? Did you ask “permission” from someone if you weren’t sure?

    My office is super casual in dressing, but no one here has had the crazy hair colors or facial piercings. Not a lot of people have very visible tattoos (some do but they’re hidden under regular clothing, and if it shows….it’s not a scandal or anything). Attire is business casual, so that ranges from slacks and button down shirts to graphic (not profanity or politics) T shirts & jeans for men, to skirt/dress/heels to leggings & tshirts for women.

    Anyway, I’m dying to color my hair. I have a color appt at the end of the month and I’m leaning towards going back to my natural hair color (dark brown black) and having pink at the ends.

    Obv, I don’t want to spend $$$$$$$$ only to be told I have to change it, but it also feels a little childish and weird that I need to “ask permission.” I asked our “HR” person and she said it looks amazing but she didn’t give a firm yes or no answer. I’m thinking of asking my boss but I’m kind of scared of how it’ll be received, and maybe a little scared of a no b/c now I’ll feel like a rebellious teen.

    1. Curious Cat*

      Yes, I have! I usually dye my hair various shades of auburn and red, but a little while back I dyed the entire under side hot pink (it was still very visible when my hair was down, but looked super awesome when my hair was up in a ponytail/bun). I also have a super casual office and have many piercings (all different ear piercings for me, but many coworkers have nose rings), but I did still clear it with my boss anyway. It can be shocking to come in with an unnatural color, so even if you’re doing it as more of a heads up, I think it’s a good idea to let your boss know. Better to be safe than sorry.

    2. Libby*

      I did at both places (I dyed my hair back when job hunting), even though I knew at both it would be okay. But I’m an apprehensive type person like that in general.

    3. SoCalHR*

      Check your handbook, it may address “non-natural” hair colors. But even if it doesn’t preclude crazy colors, you still have to weigh the culture aspect of your office. Sounds like you’re not client-facing so I feel like it should be less of an issue.

    4. Murphy*

      I have fire engine red hair. I dyed it a more conservative (though obviously fake) red for my interview and first few months here just in case. I didn’t ask permission to go back to the bright red. I basically just took stock of the office. Business casual, but a few had visible tattoos. Someone in another department had some teal in her hair, and as far as I could tell, nobody batted an eye.

      If you’re really concerned, you could always just ask permission and acknowledge the weirdness. “I feel a bit silly even asking about this, but I did really want to make sure that it wasn’t inappropriate!”

    5. Free Meerkats*

      Good timing on this for me, I’m leaving for a full redye in about 15 minutes. I work in a technical role with some contact with the regulated community for a municipality. And I have pink hair and beard. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bf1ZrW6H86w/

      I didn’t ask permission, but since I have a very good relationship with my management, I let them know in advance.

    6. Paige*

      I have fun colors in my hair. I started with just one fun color, and I had the stylist dye it in such a way that the fun color was under my regular hair, so the fun color was only visible if I pulled my hair up/to the side. I got nothing but compliments on it, and from there moved to getting more color (and more colors over time) in the form of highlights/streaks. For a short time, I inspired a “fun hair colors” fad with a few of my older colleagues (most of whom did it once or twice and then went back to natural hair colors because it can be hard to maintain, esp. if you have dark natural hair). I’ve never had a problem, I never asked permission, but I also work in a place that is very casual most of the time. And I don’t have a customer-facing job.

      Worst case scenario if you do your hair pink on the ends and your boss just loses their mind about it, you can trim the ends off?

      1. Anon - I've Recommended This Blog Too Much Lately..*

        I have a similar situation — I work in a place where people openly show their tattoos, and the dress code is a lot like yours (t-shirt and jeans is standard for everyone). I started with a nose piercing (think I was the first office-dweller to do this). I didn’t ask permission, but just felt it would be ok. After there were no negative reactions – other than the coworker who thought the piercing was dirt, ha! – I dyed my hair bright blue at the ends. There was another coworker in the office that did it first, but it wasn’t wide spread, and hers wasn’t as drastic. That got a bit more reaction, but was all very much in the vein of “that’s awesome” and not “WTF.” For a time, it inspired a lot of crazy colored hair. I’ve since lost the blue for budgetary and time reasons (takes FOR-EV-ER to get it done), but there’s still a good bit of it going around the company. My only caveat just in case is that we’re a very causual industry, and a very casual consumer products brand but I do have one of the more professional jobs (general counsel) and am definitely customer facing. I’d just say trust your gut!! And maybe ask around to a few trusted coworkers (but not HR) if you want a gut check?

    7. NotaPirate*

      I’m an anxious person but I would touch base with my boss. It’s worth the ick of “asking for permission” to not have any drama later. I’d do it super casually though, “Hey Boss, check out this awesome style I found online, our handbook doesn’t have anything on hair dye, would something like this be okay here?” and gauge his/her reaction.

    8. CheeryO*

      I think it would be fine to ask your boss. If you really don’t want to, maybe try testing the waters with something a little more subtle. We had a woman here come in with a few purple streaks, and people loved it so much that a bunch of us have talked about doing something similar. Of course culture plays a part – we aren’t really client facing, although we do interface with the public and a regulated community, and a lot of people in our industry are on the quirky side.

    9. Red Reader*

      I have naturally red waist length hair and am now going on eight years of dyeing it from shoulders down, usually varying combinations of green, blue and purple. For the last four years I’ve worked for a hospital where it was flat forbidden to have unnatural colors. I just put it up in a bun and people either couldn’t tell or “didn’t notice” – nobody ever said boo, any rate. They just changed our dress code in April to no longer veto colors or visible tattoos, which is nice.

    10. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

      I work in a large Gov organisation and have been lilac, pink, various shades of blue. I checked out dress policy and ours only said ‘Hair must be clear and tidy’. In other patient facing areas I knew crazy colours were okay, but I work in the more corporate section. I asked someone who had been here ages, and he said it should be fine.

      Honestly I find it makes me recognizable in a good way! I did wait about a year before dying it for the first time, and showed I was a high performer. Anyone who’s made a negative comment (which hasn’t been many) I reply with ‘I can do the job whatever my hair colour’ or a variant of that.

      One thing I do take care with is the rest of my wardrobe, it’s quite quirky by most standards (I have dresses with cat prints or doughnuts). However I go very conservative in terms of style. High neck, below knee, nothing too fitted. Everything coordinates with my hair so there aren’t any clashes.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Ooooo good point on dressing.

        I dress very feminine— skirts dresses full face makeup. So idk if it will all look too much. I don’t want to tone down my look.

    11. HannahS*

      If you dye the ends and they don’t like it, you can learn to do a hairstyle that has the ends of your hair tucked out of sight, if it’s long enough.

      1. Anon - I've Recommended This Blog Too Much Lately..*

        Gibson roll is an excellent option here – I did this the few times I wanted to hide the blue for mediation or in-person negotiations where I had to put my game face on.

        1. HannahS*

          Yep, I did gibson tucks and flipped-under braids a lot when I had blue hair from shoulders to waist. French twists would work, too. Even one of those faux-bob devices is an option.

    12. ColorfulAnon*

      I’m one of the more junior people at my (state government) job. I had my hair my natural color for interview and for a few months, then I was ready to dye it again. I touched base with a few slightly older people who had been with the agency for a few years about whether it would be appropriate or not – they in turn introduced me to some people who worked on a different floor who had great very bright hair! The only issue I ever had was an unexpected presentation to an outside company that I was asked to be part of last minute, but I was able to cover up the dyed ends in a bun. So not really asking ‘permission’, but I definitely did ask around to make sure it wouldn’t be totally out of place. It ended up being well received though :)

    13. AnonNotmyNormalName*

      I have a purple balayage in my hair and my hair is dyed quite a bit darker than my natural colour. I work in higher ed in a pretty conservative department and I’m in a senior position. I didn’t ask my bosses but I did mention what I was thinking to a couple of people and I was told it would be fine. That said, I generally dress up and on the conservative end of things. My direct bosses like it, some people across campus, not so much but they also haven’t come out and said anything. My hair also keeps the colour really well so it doesn’t ever look bad or too faded. I keep on top of it.

    14. Jadelyn*

      Does your company have a written dress code? I’d check that first. Also, how customer-facing is your role? They might take it differently if you’re regularly meeting CEOs of client companies, vs if you’re doing accounting in a back office somewhere.

      I’ve dyed the underside half of my hair blue – nobody batted an eyelash and I get compliments about it regularly, but then, we’re a very very casual company about that stuff. Dress code is casual, jeans okay every day, visible tattoos and piercings are fine as long as the tattoos aren’t actually vulgar (naked people or hate symbols, stuff like that). I also have a tongue ring and a visible tattoo on my neck, and my officemate has full sleeves on both arms – we had a loan officer before my time who had facial tattoos, and the clients loved her.

      If you do ask, I wouldn’t frame it as asking permission – and I wouldn’t even go into what you’re planning to do. I’d just ask “what’s our policy on unnatural hair colors?” and see what happens.

    15. Nancie*

      I have! I dyed my hair teal once, it went over very well. Especially since I (accidentally) got it exactly the same shade as our company’s official color.

      Recently my hair has been rose-gold, fire-engine red, apricot, and bright orange. The apricot was the closest to passing for a natural color. The only comments I’ve gotten about the color has been compliments.

      I wouldn’t feel odd about asking my boss if if it was ok, if I didn’t already know. I’d probably phrase it as “As far as you know, would it be a problem if I came in with purple hair tomorrow?”

    16. krysb*

      My hair has been pink all over, and for a while I had blue, green, and purple hair. My company is cool with funky color, tattoos, and piercings, despite being in the legal industry.

    17. Not So Little My*

      I dyed my hair hot pink when I was starting at a job where lots of people had wild colors, including the HR recruiter. But that job didn’t work out and I was searching again. I went with rose gold, partly because I liked it but also because I figured it would read a bit more subdued in an unknown situation. I started at a new place a couple months ago and am keeping the rose gold. But then I work in software in a progressive coastal city so that kind of thing is pretty common.

    18. Thlayli*

      When I was a part timer in college I had my hair in every colour and cut I could imagine. I’ve only done it once since I started my “career” type jobs and I asked my boss first if it would be a problem. it wouldn’t have been a good look long term in that role, but I wanted to do it temporarily for a holiday and needed to come into work with blue hair for a day befor and a day after to make the timing work out. He laughed and said no problem. If I’d been asking to do it long term he might have said yes, but it would have been a bad idea coz I was client facing with a lot of stuffy clients.

    19. NaoNao*

      I have had deep royal blue, pink, purple, and apricot. My office didn’t say anything to me, but I’m not customer facing and (I think this might be key) I was careful to style it very conventionally and dress very much on the business side of business casual. I also don’t have visible tattoos (I have them but they stay mostly covered) or facial piercings or other body mod that might “add up” to a very alternative look.

      Maybe test the waters with that washable hair paint first?

  27. anon for this*

    I hope this isn’t too stupid a question, but I’m a US citizen looking for jobs in the UK. What I’m seeing is that UK CVs usually include everything where US resumes don’t, but does everything really mean *everything*, like the month/two weeks I worked big box retail (separate instances) or other jobs that just turned out to be really bad fits (graduated into the recession, job history still hasn’t recovered)? Would there be a big problem if I just did what I usually do on my US resume and left off my first few years of work?

    1. Rosemary7391*

      I doubt it – I’m a UK person and I’ve got 2 or 3 short term/casual jobs I usually don’t include unless I want to show experience in something specific. I’m young enough to include my whole job history (since 15!) but so long as you list a reasonable amount I don’t think cutting it off would raise eyebrows.

    3. Never Nicky*

      I’m UK – I have grouped spells of temping/short term work from my first years of work together under headings such as “clerical/admin” and “retail/hospitality” before – just to show that I was doing SOMETHING after dropping out of Uni and it’s been absolutely fine. I’m now at an age where really I’m thinking those dates could prejudice me (I appear younger than I am, and age discrimination is a thing) and I should drop them…

  28. Dotty*

    So after a spate of bad reviews on Glassdoor, the PR & Marketing dept is planning to wait a few weeks before posting a series of fake reviews, this has been approved by the Deputy MD (one level down from the CEO).

    Is there anything I can do/suggest or do I just inwardly file this as another example of the company’s lack of integrity??

    In case it matters, I’m also a manager and would have given the place 3 stars, my experience has been pretty good but I understand where our 1-star reviewers are coming from….

    1. Curious Cat*

      NOOO! (this was my immediate reaction reading this).
      You may just need to inwardly file this away and keep notes for whenever you want to leave. They should definitely be making an effort to be a better company off what people are saying in the bad reviews. Also candidates can usually tell when there are bad reviews and then glowing positive 5-stars. It’s glaringly obvious and will turn off a lot of people. This one’s on your company and not your problem.

      1. Antilles*

        Also candidates can usually tell when there are bad reviews and then glowing positive 5-stars.
        Yeah. As long as the candidate does more than just glance at the average, it usually becomes pretty clear, pretty fast. Especially since the poor reviews usually have specific details whereas the 5-star reviews typically just gush about the company in general.

    2. ThisIsMyNewUserName*

      Post your own!!! I’d wait until after the fake ones are posted, and then flat-out call them on it. “Just so everyone knows, the posts from PersonA, PersonQ, and PersonZ are fake – the company’s PR/Marketing department wanted to post them in response to some bad reviews. As a manager (or you can say, as someone with inside knowledge or whatever), I would give the place 3 stars, but I understand where the 1-star reviews are coming from.”

    3. gecko*

      Yeesh…well I think Glassdoor customer service would be interested in this. You could ask them about anonymity policies as well. If you send them your work IP (or send the message from work) hopefully they should be able to tell when someone from your office is the one posting the fake review.

    4. Jiji the Cat*

      I strongly suspect my company has done this… I don’t have confirmation, but our most recent reviews were “written” by our “interns” but mention things that our interns wouldn’t have known, like heaps of praise for our retirement and health insurance plans.

    5. BRR*

      My not helpful answer, suggest fixing the issues people brought up.

      Depending on the situation, could you point out that it violates glassdoor’s Terms? If that would just punish you I would skip it and let Glassdoor know (I’m assuming they have a way to be contacted) and let them know your company is planning on posting fake reviews.

    6. Never Nicky*

      NOOOO!

      I’m PR/Comms in my organisation, and if that was suggested I’d be closing it down so fast that there’d be scorch marks in the carpets. And if that didn’t work, my CV would be going round as soon as I could type it.

      I’m really surprised that PR is going for that – certainly the professional bodies in the UK for PR and Marketing have codes of ethics that we are expected to uphold, and this would be a breach. It’s fine to put the best light on a story, but to outright fake – no, nope, nopeity nope.

    7. Anonymous Susan*

      My company does this. I hate it so much, it’s cringey and embarrassing and obvious. That department is known to be sleazy AF.

    9. Dotty*

      Thanks all!

      I thought maybe they’d try to take something from the reviews – despite being 1 and 2 stars there’s lots of constructive feedback with clear things in common between the reviews – but they’re not interested in fixing.

      But I will contact Glassdoor and I also saw the Ratings Trend option so you can see spikes in ratings. I’m pretty tempted to write one myself.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      This is terrible. It shows a terrible lack of integrity. If I knew about it would would post a review about the fake reviews. Glassdoor and Indeed have a place for the company to RESPOND to poor reviews. That is what your PR department should be thinking about and doing, not posting fakes.

    11. Traffic_Spiral*

      I’d say “just for the record, I’m against this, as it will probably be discovered as fake and make us look worse – maybe even make us go viral.” Hopefully, that makes them see the light. If not, be ready to report.

  29. Curious Cat*

    It’s Not That Hard to Take Your K-Cup Out of the Communal Keurig, a frustrated how-to guide by me

    1. Curious Cat*

      Be on the lookout for its highly anticipated sequel: Please Stop Using My Clearly Labeled Creamer

      1. Jadelyn*

        You could always try the “peel off the label and re-label it in Sharpie as “breast milk” and see if that stops them” tactic.

        (seriously though, I sympathize. I hate creamer thievery with a blazing passion. If you asked, I’d be happy to let you have some once in awhile, but don’t just take it, dammit!)

    2. HigherEdPerson*

      This might need to be an all-company ANGRY RANT email.

      You know, so that someone else can post about it on here for our enjoyment ;-)

      1. Curious Cat*

        Ha! Oh man, I can’t even imagine sending out an all-staff email venting about the use of a coffee machine…although I did also post about it for all strangers on the interwebs to see, so who knows ;) Just needed to put it out into the universe.

    3. SoCalHR*

      So here’s the thing… part of me thinks it makes sense to leave the used on in there so people are transporting them super hot and drippy to the trash can. Essentially, everyone is still throwing one used cup away, it just happens to be from the person before them and not theirs when they are done. Since there’s no germ-factor, I don’t see how this is a problem. But there’s two camps on this and it sounds like you’re in the other one Cat :-)

      1. Curious Cat*

        Trueeee this is a super fair point. I mean, hey, in the grand-scheme of things this is super unimportant and just a minor daily annoyance for me xD

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I’ve never been so grateful that our machines automatically dump the used cup into a bin that only has to be emptied every so often.

      2. Jadelyn*

        That’s where I come down – I don’t toss the cup immediately after making my coffee bc I don’t want to burn my fingers and leave coffee ground dribbles between the machine and the trash bin. I throw away the cup from the person before me, since it’s had time to cool off and dry out, and I leave mine for the next person. Nobody’s ever said anything.

    4. Environmental Compliance*

      You could make a whole series of those. I’ll contribute If The Bottles Are Not Labeled With Your Lab Name, What In The Fresh Hell Made You Think It Was Okay To Move Them To Your Lab Fridge From The Sample Fridge?

      Or, the short title of “How EC Terrified A Lab Technician”, or perhaps “If It Ain’t Yours, Don’t Touch It.”

        1. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

          May I add “Your Paper Jam Will Not Clear Itself” and “Stop Squatting in the Conference Rooms”? (We have huddle rooms for folks who want the extra privacy or space, but there is one guy who I’ve had to kick out the past four times I’ve reserved the conference room.)

          1. Jadelyn*

            I can contribute “You Do Realize That You Have Access To Your Pay Statements Yourself, Right? Please Stop Asking Me To Give Them To You.” With sub-chapters on changing one’s address, phone number, and emergency contacts, all of which are self-service items!!!

          2. Bowl of Oranges*

            I don’t know why my brain initially jumped to this, but I thought you meant doing squats in the conference room for a minute–that you had to actually tell him to stop doing squats so you could meet.

    5. Sunshine*

      I know that putting up signs is always a fraught thing, but as an infrequent Keurig user who forgets to take out her used pods 100% of the time (all of the <10 times per year I use a Keurig), I would look at such a sign as a helpful reminder to operators.

      OTOH, I definitely don’t work at your office, so your sign will not help me improve and may ruffle feathers that are not mine. So.

      1. Curious Cat*

        Ahh yeah I always seem to find signs as coming across a bit passive aggressive. This def. isn’t a big enough deal for signage, I just needed to vent about it to strangers on the internet

    6. Red Reader*

      My coffee-drinking housemates both (a) complain about each other leaving the cup in the machine and (b) leave their own cups in the machine. The one who uses the machine for hot water for tea, on the other hand, doesn’t complain, but definitely checks before she teas.

    7. CAA*

      This might be a company culture thing. When I worked at a place that had Keurigs, the expectation was that you should leave the used K-cup there so as not to drip coffee all over the counter or floor on the way to the trash can and the next person would throw it away. Keurigs were pretty new then, so we actually had illustrated directions on the wall that started with removing the previous K-cup.

    8. LCL*

      I actually thought about this and analyzed the process that is going on, because part of my job is to analyze mistakes. So I think it’s like this: Getting a cup of coffee pre Keurig machines was the sequence of pour coffee-dose coffee with cream and sugar-wipe up spills and walk away with coffee. The state of the machine isn’t considered until it is time to make a new pot. Getting a cup of coffee with Keurig is put pod in machine-now you’ve already done something with the machine so your ‘brain’ checks that off as done-program machine, now you have done two separate steps with the machine-dose coffee with cream and sugar, walk away with coffee. Not so fast-there is a new, third step involving the machine-remove the old pod.
      It has hard because we are learning a different process. The end result is the same-a cup of nectar. All I can do is keep checking my own behavior. And yeah, I still sometimes forget even though I work at remembering. I think Keurig could make this easier by adding a reminder tone to their machines.

    9. Could be Anyone*

      Yes it is! They are too hot! We just throw away before use instead of after. It all works out. :)

    10. Jaid_Diah*

      As long as you remember to use it to begin with.

      Yes. Yes, I’ve forgotten to put the K-cup in BEFORE starting the water, resulting in a cup of not-so delicious creamy water.

      Fortunately, I have instant coffee too.

  30. Environmental Compliance*

    I can’t concentrate well today, so I’m taking advantage of my fidgits and cleaning out the file room attached to my office. I’ve counted 23 spiders so far and a multitude of spider babies that I’ve flushed out. Also tons of files and random handwritten notebooks from the 80’s. But by the time I’m done, there’ll be actual organization taking place instead of finding a place to shove the paperwork. Possibly also plants.

    Hubs gave his notice last Friday, and upper management walked him out Wednesday, so I guess now we can get a jump start on getting preapproved for a house loan & talking to realtors, since he has nothing else to do until New Job starts. Apparently Old Job decided that allowing him to finish out his 2 weeks is “bad for morale”. Funnily enough, in the department with a 95% rate of turnover in the past 9-12 months, the remaining staff (all younger engineers) are also looking right now, and have decided that if now Company is walking you out when you give notice, they won’t give 2 weeks, since a few of them can’t lose that paycheck.

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Um, unrelated-ish, but reading about your spiders just reminded me that my cousin was bit by a brown recluse over the weekend and IT IS BAD, so I just got the full on shudders reading your post. What I’m really trying to say is…be careful!!

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I’ve been on the lookout for recluses (we do get those little buggers here) and for rusty metal. There’s some weird…goopy…. brown stuff that I found gloves to remove too. Thankfully, now I’m moving the actual files and finding some hilariously dated training texts. Awful fonts, weird cartoon characters, and all!

        The spiders that got squashed so far are the generic cellar spiders – no scary ones yet!

        1. Never Nicky*

          Be careful with the cellar spiders – some one I know turned out to be allergic to their bites and it was nasty…

    2. Emily S.*

      Good luck with your husband’s new job!

      And good on your for doing some organizing. I get so much pleasure from cleaning out closets/storage areas/etc. Planning to tackle my bedroom closet this weekend. Too much unused stuff in there!

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        He’s so excited for it – just currently bored out of his mind. But not bored enough for the honey do list, lol….

        I love organizing when it’s not my bedroom. I don’t know what it is about clothing, but I much prefer organizing bathrooms, or filing cabinets, or laboratories. In college, the year I graduated they were working on preparing the entire science wing (it was a small college) to get ripped down and rebuilt that summer. I volunteered to inventory and consolidate the biology section. Some of the other Fellows told me they felt bad for me to get it, but I had a blast doing it. Found the goofiest stuff squirreled away in a closet by a professor that hadn’t been there in at least 20 years!

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            Random petri plates filled with mold, ceramic scent diffusers for deer research, preserved animal specimens, random skeleton/parts of skeletons, unlabeled or poorly labeled chemicals, preserved shelf mushrooms, handwritten notes on exam modifications, pinned out insects… I’m sure there was more, but that’s what I remember off the top of my head. The preserved animal specimens did spook me, since the lighting wasn’t great in the closet, and I had moved some stuff shoved in front of them to have a fetal pig with two heads staring at me.

  31. T3k*

    So, I accepted a seasonal position for a a customer support position (think call center but no phones) that’s vaguely within the same industry I want to be in, but obviously not what I want to do long term (very low pay, long unpredictable hours, etc.). I’m in the middle of an interview with a preferred job (talked to last week) but haven’t heard back yet (their timeline was to email everyone this week if they’d be moving forward or not). I’m struggling if and/or how to let the latter know I’m still interested but I’ve now started what I view as a temporary job so it may be difficult to get ahold of me. Or should I even bother and just wait to send a follow up email next week if I
    still haven’t heard anything? (oh, and reason I accepted was I was going nearly 5 months now with no job since last contract ended).

    1. Thlayli*

      Don’t tell them about the temporary job. If anything just drop them a line letting them know to email instead of call.

  32. Rezia*

    I’m trying to drink more water, and one consequence is that I go to the bathroom a LOT, maybe once every 1.5 hours. I’m self conscious about getting up from my desk so much. Nobody’s commented on it but I worry that people notice. Has anyone else run into this problem or have advice on this?

    1. Never*

      Not a direct answer to your question, but if you are going to the bathroom every 1.5 hours, you are drinking too much. Please just trust your body and drink to thirst.

      Signed, a person working on urinary health research projects with doctors in the field.

        1. Tris Prior*

          Ditto. More often if I’m drinking more water to keep myself from snacking.

          How often is one supposed to pee, ideally?

      3. Emily S.*

        +1
        In the past, I’ve been told that my blood sodium level was too low, and it turned out to be partly from drinking too much water (I was drinking a LOT at the time, and have since reduced it).

      4. Friday afternoon fever*

        Hello! That is an unhelpful generalization. I too pee at least once every 1.5 hours, if not more, even if I don’t drink a lot of water. I have been tested by doctors! It’s not a problem! It’s just me! That doesn’t mean one can’t drink too much water, for sure, but peeing at x frequency does not have to be an indicator that anything’s wrong. Please just trust my body when it says I have to pee very frequently.

        Rezia—nobody has ever said anything to me. I doubt they’re thinking about it. If so, just brush it off with an “oh, I’ve been drinking a lot of water recently!” If anyone brings it up a second time…. they are weird and that’s inappropriate.

          1. Jennifer Thneed*

            Wow, all people are saying is “generalizations aren’t helpful”. Which is true, because there is so much variation among humans. It *is* useful to know that a person can drink too much water if they work at it.

            1. Rezia*

              I’m drinking, I’d guess, 8-9 glasses a day but I am drinking most of that during work hours.
              Never, thanks for your concern. Does that still sound like too much water to you?
              I’ve been told by my doc to drink more water during the summer because my blood pressure is low and will drop even more when I’m dehydrated, so that’s where this is coming from.

      5. NaoNao*

        So there is absolutely no variation allowing for gender, age, diet, previous infections, having given birth, consuming high sodium items, diuretics like coffee, other conditions, etc? Everyone on earth is absolutely drinking “too much” if they’re going to the bathroom every couple hours? That seems…a little sweeping of a generalization!

        I have days where I’m in the bathroom every couple hours and I have days where I go twice in a workday. I don’t think there’s a genuine downside to drinking enough to have to go every 1.5 hours.

        According to WebMd:

        “Most people urinate between six and eight times a day. But if you’re drinking plenty, it’s not abnormal to go as many as 10 times a day. You may also pee more often if you’re taking certain medications, like diuretics for high blood pressure.”

        By my math, 10 times a day is about every 1.5 hours assuming the average person is up and awake for 16 hours.

    2. MegPie*

      I don’t think people notice our movements around the office nearly as much as we think they do. I don’t think once every hour and a half is too often at all. I get up at least that often to stretch my legs or just get a change of scenery. Just don’t announce where you’re going.

    3. Xarcady*

      I have the same issue. And from where I sit, I have to walk by the entire department, including my supervisor and her supervisor to get to the rest room.

      I have no advice, but lots of sympathy.

    4. Barbaric Yawp*

      I’m with you, occasionally I wonder if it raises anyone else’s eyebrows. But to be fair, if they’re paying that much attention to your bathroom habits, they must not have a lot of work to do.

      Besides, I always heard it was a good idea to get away from your desk/computer to give your eyes a break every now and then anyway.

    5. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I don’t think any one will notice, I know I definitely don’t notice the comings and goings of my coworkers. And unless the bathroom is right next to someone’s desk, there are multitudes of reasons why someone may be getting up every hour and a half (which isn’t even that often), so even if they did see you getting up, they’re probably not immediately thinking “wow they pee a lot”. You could be going to the printer, getting a drink of water, walking to a meeting, going to talk with a someone at their desk, or just stretching their legs. You’re probably golden!

      Also, congrats on drinking more water, I’ve been trying to do that but it definitely does not come naturally to me!

    6. Environmental Compliance*

      Yeah, I try to drink plenty of water too, since I can’t always seem to get the signals lined up properly from my body. I also have a long history of UTIs, so I get a little paranoid about holding anything.

      Anyway – I also get up and move around probably every 90 minutes or so. There’s two bathrooms near enough to me that I can alternate them so it’s not so obvious that it’s a bathroom break. I truly also think the average individual doesn’t pay any attention or care.

    7. Rosemary7391*

      I can’t even sit still that long! Between cups of tea, bathroom visits and any other excuse to wander I’m up at least once an hour. People don’t care provided they don’t have to move to let you past.

    8. SoCalHR*

      Its healthy to get up and walk around frequently anyway (#sittingisthenewsmoking) so it would be good for you to get up that often anyway, even if its just a stretch break. I think you’re probably fine.

    9. blink14*

      General recommendations are to get up from your desk every 30-60 minutes for better health. If anyone asks, just say you’re stretching your legs or something to that effect.

    10. whistle*

      I go to the bathroom every half hour in the morning when I am still drinking coffee. No one has ever commented on it. I doubt most people notice, and I wouldn’t worry about it as long as you are generally productive.

    11. Sandman*

      I don’t have advice, but share your concern. Anything I drink comes right through me and I have to keep myself mildly dehydrated or I’ll do the same. Every thirty minutes isn’t crazy for me if I have OJ in the morning.

    12. Lumen*

      I seriously doubt anyone is even noticing. Trust that the people who matter will be more focused on their work than on you. Hopefully!

    13. Well-Hydrated*

      yeah, people might notice, but your body, your business. I have the same issue, and it’s become a little bit of a joke with people who know me well (my team). Often they comment that they, too, should be drinking more water, so I don’t think they see it as a bad thing. And when one of my teammates was actively trying to drink more water, she openly acknowledged that was why she was getting antsy if a meeting ran long. Now that I’m thinking of it, I am also realizing I’m in an environment where it’s almost inevitable that people have water bottles or cups in meetings, so it might be becoming the norm. That said, I’ve had to be conscious of my calendar and when I might have a long meeting with senior management, say. I just cut my water intake before and during the meeting.

    14. Jennifer Thneed*

      I think that once every 90 minutes is only excessive if you’re in a job where you’re supposed to wait for your break before you’re allowed to use the bathroom.

      I also doubt that anyone is watching or caring, but if they are: “I’m trying to drink more water and you know what happens then”. Or “I’m trying to get up and walk around more often, so I’m drinking more water.”

      It really is true that we shouldn’t sit for hours and hours without getting up and moving around. It’s bad for us in so many ways.

    15. Lucille2*

      Yes, and someone actually did remark that I leave my desk a lot. I work in an open office, so there is no such thing as privacy. I responded that I drink a lot of water. And he never mentioned it again. This guy in particular was socially awkward and very chatty. Most people either don’t notice or have the decency not to mention the frequency someone uses the bathroom because that’s just weird.

    16. Small but Fierce*

      I can only commiserate as I also use the restroom every hour to hour and a half. I also typically refill my water at that time. I’m never actually thirsty, but it keeps me from getting hungry and an excuse to walk around, so I don’t think there’s much harm in it. As others have said, they’re probably not as aware of your movements as you would think.

  33. want to walk to work*

    I’m not “actively” looking for a job – I like mine for the most part, I’ve got a lot of autonomy, the benefits are fantastic, pay could be better, but I’m good and it and well respected – but I found an opening in my field that’s close to a step-down in responsibilities, pays the same, and is only 1 mile from my house. I’m interested in applying just because it’s so convenient to where I live – I’d save 1.5 – 2 hours a day from my commute! – but the job sounds “meh”. Should I apply just to check it out and hear what they have to say/see if it sounds like there’s promotional possibilities in the future, etc? or should I only apply if I’m actually interested in THAT particular job?

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I don’t think it hurts to apply to learn more! Interviews are just as much for you as they are for the company, so if you talk with them and don’t end up liking what you hear, that’s perfectly fine and how the process should operate.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d at least apply to check it out more. 1.5 – 2 hours a day is nothing to sneeze at, and in my experience, can have serious positive impact on your quality of life.

  34. Anonymous Cowpath Paver*

    So I posted last week about the Restructuring. My user name is a reference to “paving the cowpath” – superficial updates that don’t change the underlying process.

    I want to upgrade my technical skills and fast. Most of my job is working with Excel spreadsheets and I feel like much of it can be automated. I have some macros but need to re-learn VBA scripting – or is that even worthwhile anymore?

    I’ve come to realize that while my manager is a good person, she is set in her ways from a 30-year career and her resistance to change has put my whole team behind the 8 ball. I’m been here for 7 years and we only went paperless 3 years ago. We just kept all the same processes just on a shared drive instead of on paper.

    There’s another manager who is set to retire in a year or two who is running the “bots” that are automating a lot of tasks. Great-grandboss who is running the restructure says there will be a lot of opportunities managing the bots and handling exceptions (which are frequent). How should I approach her about getting in the pipeline? Much of her team was laid off a few months ago so I don’t want to look tone deaf about that

    2. J.B.*

      Do you want to stay where you are or build skills for another move? I don’t do VBA myself but since macros can be recorded am not sure what the current value is. Depending on what you do with those spreadsheets, they might be suited to a bigger software package. You could spend some time working with Power BI and learn some R. Power BI has a query tool like the one in excel. (I prefer other software packages but desktop Power BI is free and what you learn there could well be transferred.)

      Not free, but Lynda has some really good tutorials on a bunch of stuff.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I can’t speak to the rest of this, but I can tell you that VBA is still relevant, at least in part because recorded macros are enormous and unwieldy. Excel records what you do, sure, but then the code it spits out for it is awful – I swear, it’s like Excel is getting paid by the word for that code. I initially recorded a macro for cleanup on a canned report that I pulled every week, then decided to learn some VBA by starting with that code and editing it. By the time I was done streamlining the code, I’d cut the number of commands in half or something similarly ridiculous. It was wild.

        If you use macros more than once in a blue moon, it is almost certainly worth the time spent to learn a bit of VBA code so you don’t have to rely on recorded macros – especially if the macros you need are long or complex, because it can bog Excel down if you try to run a recorded macro that’s bloated all to hell. Even if all you do is record a macro, then optimize the recorded code, it’s still better than going off of pure recorded macros.

        1. Anonymous Cowpath Paver*

          Thanks! That’s good to know. Yeah I’ve been using recorded macros and trying to edit them – now I know why that’s a losing battle. Better to learn to code them cleanly and get them to do what I want them to do.

  35. Barbaric Yawp*

    Hi everyone! TLDR: anyone move from grant-writing/fundraising to a totally different (e.g. for-profit) field with success?

    I can’t tell if I’m just burnt out or if it’s time for a career change. I’ve been in non-profits and fundraising since college (7+ years ago now), and while it’s been personally fulfilling, I’m at a point in my life where I’m a little anxious to be living paycheck to paycheck when I’m a single woman in a relatively expensive metro area at a non-profit whose main funder has been slashing our budget consistently the last few fiscal years (Layoffs abound, morale is low to say the least). There’s not a lot of support at the board or senior management level for fundraising and my department is….just me, expected to bring in these big dollar amounts, and that along with many other symptoms of dysfunction have me re-thinking things. Not just my future at this place, but in this field in general. I feel like I’m okay at it, knowledgeable about industry trends, etc. but my heart just isn’t in it anymore, and I’m sure it shows…

    So – has anyone moved on from a grant writing role to something else? I know no workplace is perfect but I feel like I’m underpaid and undervalued, and I’m not sure how or where to transition.

    1. DCGirl*

      Yes! I worked as a fund raiser for 15 years before transitioning to the for-profit section. My running job during those 15 years was that I didn’t aspire to ever be able to buy a new car; I simply hoped one day to be able to buy a used car during the same decade in which it was manufactured.

      Anyhow, I answered a blind ad for a proposal writer position, and it turned out to be at a Big Five (at the time) accounting firm doing proposals for audit services. I’m not a senior proposal manager at a government contractor in the DC area. You could also look for technical writer positions as well.

      2. Barbaric Yawp*

        OMG the car thing haha, yes! I’m resigning myself to a future of “Grandma only drove this to the grocery store and doctor’s appointments” selection of the lot.

        That’s really great to know the proposal writing skills transferred so well in a different setting! I’ve been looking in postings along that vein, proposal and technical writing. My current org offers pretty decent benefits (I think that’s how they’ve kept most of us, tbh) but I feel like a for-profit would offer comparable ones. Time to stop waffling and make some moves lol.

        Anyway, glad to hear it worked out for a (former) fellow fundraiser! Thanks, DC!

    2. Lily Rowan*

      I’ve stayed in fundraising over the past 20+ years, but have changed jobs a fair amount and moved to different kinds of organizations, and I make a good salary now as a manager in higher ed. What I’ve learned about myself is that I actually am happier at places that are less mission-driven. Obviously, it’s important that I think we’re doing good and important work, but working at the places where everyone is supposed to sacrifice themselves for The Cause burned me out.

      So I’m not saying don’t look to move to the for-profit world, but you could also think about if there are other kinds of nonprofit jobs that might be better for you.

    3. Alexia*

      Have you considered capture and bid or technical proposal writing for a for-profit firm? I am in a similar place in that I am not pleased with my salary in relation to the amount of funding I bring in and I have realized that, for a similar amount of stress and extra hours, I can make much more money than I do. I want to move into the business development side of grants in either a for-profit or nonprofit context and have a goal to make that happen by the end of next year. With that in mind, I’ve been doing a lot of research about the kinds of jobs that are available for my industry (where I have the technical knowledge), certifications that are available, etc. etc.

    4. Thlayli*

      I did a PhD and lectured part time during it. I did a fair bit of applying for funding / grants etc as part of that. I then moved into an engineering consultancy and as part of that I did a fair bit of bid work – applying for engineering projects basically. It’s very similar to grant and funding applications so you could probably transition into that.

      There are lots of businesses that have to do bid work – whatever industry you are in might have some businesses that need bid writers. Could be called something like marketing though depending on the industry – so look into the terminology first so you understand the jobs you are applying for.

      Good luck!

    5. JR*

      You might also look at fundraising strategy consulting, if you like the work and working with nonprofits and are mostly looking for a change due to pay and instability.

  36. MegPie*

    I dated someone who ended up being my client (I knew him from being in my industry but we hadn’t officially worked together until after we started dating). It ended pretty amicably but lately I have been getting a lot of requests to speak and he is ALWAYS either on the same panel or at the same event. I also still do work for him. It was sort of a painful breakup for me, not in the sense that he did anything wrong, just in the sense that I still care about him a lot and I’m having a hard time getting over it when I see him all the time. Any advice for how to maintain distance? I’m not going to decline these speaking opportunities because they are very good for my career. And I’m not in a position to decline work from him (my CEO knows about this and has told me so).

    1. Holly*

      All I can suggest is maybe meditation/mindfulness? So you can train yourself in calming down/being mentally “distant” even though you have to work with him.

    2. Chaordic One*

      This can be hard. I’ve been in the same situation with an ex-boyfriend, and although I haven’t had to work with him (so far), we travel in the same social and business circles and I run into him from time to time. I try to be friendly and gracious and social and make small talk with my ex and his new spouse. “Hi, how are you? What are you doing?” Those kinds of things. Nothing too deep or personal. I try to treat him like a mere acquaintance. I continue to respect him and the work he does. I comfort myself knowing that he seems happy (without me) and he’s probably better off than being unhappy with me.

    3. Denise*

      Imagine what it will be like to see him ten years from now when both your lives have changed and you’ve moved on. Prtetsnd thishas happened and act the way you think you would then. Sometimes we can trick ourselves into moving on. Also consider if you can separate missing and caring for him from grieving for what you hoped and thought you had with him, the future you were dreaming of. Because maybe you can have that future with someone else someday. It’s a head thought but if you can entertain it you can move on a little better.

  37. Free Meerkats*

    Feeding off the vocal fry conversation last week, https://www.askamanager.org/2018/08/open-thread-august-3-4-2018.html#comment-2094967
    At what point do you tell someone their vocal (for want of a better term) habit is unprofessional? The fry that was discussed? Valley girl? Uptalk? LOL speak? Text language? Baby talk? Toon voices? (I can do a credible Mickey Mouse, and carry on complete conversations in it.) Using nothing but TLAs and jargon? Klingon? Tolkien Sindarin? Pig Latin?

    All of those can convey the information needed, we should accept them all in the workplace, right?

    1. Washi*

      Lolspeak feels different than the others to me because it’s different vocabulary, which generally people have complete control over whether or not they use.(Same with the other “languages” you mention, and also baby talk.)
      For the others like upspeak and vocal fry, if it’s a peer or a supervisor, I would go the route of focusing on the information and reminding myself that there’s no one right way to speak, and that it’s all rules that people made up. For a close friend or a direct report, if their speaking style was really distracting and I was pretty sure it was changeable, I might talk to them about how they are most likely being perceived based on that style so that if they would like to continue doing it, it’s at least a conscious decision with the pros and cons in mind (this is definitely for upspeak, vocal fry would have to be very…dramatic for me to mention it.)

      1. RVA Cat*

        This. Let’s not penalize people as “unprofessional” for their normal way of speaking – like vocal fry and uptalk being looked down on because it skews young and female. I’d put it in a close category to African American Vernacular English (AAVE) as the casual speech patterns of a protected class.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I have a thing about voices, probably because I’ve worked so hard on mine. (Theater kid, classical singer, laryngitis issues in college that sent me to a speech therapist.) I don’t generally bring up people’s tones unless they’re outward-facing, like when they present. I used to present a lot, and I was working with some junior members of my team on their presentation skills, and I would bring up vocal tics like uptalk or excessive vocal fry in that context. Sometimes I would bring it up when I heard them talking to the people we supported in different departments, in the vein of helping them sound more confident. They trusted me and it worked out well. But in the course of everyday business, I usually let vocal tics slide. I know someone who uses this really nasal voice that drives me insane, but just because it annoys me doesn’t mean it’s wrong or bad, so I let it go.

      The actual language used would be a different story, I think, mostly because it becomes a problem when information isn’t properly conveyed. If I don’t understand your email because it’s full of LOLspeak, I might ask you to clarify and please use whole words. And Pig Latin? I’m not taking the time to decipher that, so I would certainly tell someone they need to use more standard language.

    3. Kat in VA*

      I dunno. I have a relatively rare vocal disorder called spasmodic dysphonia which manifests in vocal fry, words cutting off abruptly, burring, stuttering, and outright honking like a damn goose. It’s neurological and there’s nothing I can do for it, I have dysphagia so Botox is right out, I can’t have the surgeries because a surgeon severed my laryngeal nerve on the left during a spinal fusion.

      I generally bring it right up front with folks that I have a speech impediment (folks react better to that than “speech disorder”) but I’d be baffled and upset if someone told me I had to change the way I spoke to be more professional because I literally CAN’T.

      I realize my case is somewhat unusual but I figured I’d throw that out there. Someone who didn’t know me would possibly think I’m doing these things as an affectation, when in reality, there’s nothing I can do about it.

      1. Curious Cat*

        To add in on this side of things – my cousin has had a vocal disorder since birth that causes very bad lisping and she also still sounds very much like a child, despite being an adult woman. She did speech therapy all growing up, but it’s just her voice and there’s nothing she can do about it! I’m unsure of her experiences in the office, but I hope people don’t think she’s doing it as an odd habit!

      2. Tau*

        +1 from another member Team Speech Disorder. I have a long and complicated history with speech therapy and have some pretty radical opinions about it these days. As a consequence I am not keen on asking people to change how they speak and how their voices work, because it was made pretty clear to me growing up that the way I spoke wasn’t acceptable and that did a lot of damage in a lot of ways.

    4. Merida Ann*

      If you are that person’s manager and it is having a direct impact on their work (as in, they are giving presentations and their style of speaking is difficult to understand) you may be able to bring it up.

      If you are a peer, you *maybe* can mention that you are having a difficult time understanding them (if you really are) and suggest alternative ways of communication that would make it easier for you to understand.

      If you absolutely know for a fact that this is something they are doing on purpose (the Mickey Mouse voice or fictional languages, for example) because they think it’s funny or whatever, you can mention that you find it distracting and ask if they could please avoid speaking that way to you at work.

      In all other instances, I would say that you need to treat other peoples’ ways of speaking as if it was an accent. Presumably, you wouldn’t ask your coworker from Texas or New York or London to change their accents, even if you found it distracting, so treat vocal fry or “valley girl” or whatever the same way. It’s how they talk. They have not hired you to be their vocal coach. Leave them alone.

      I have one friend whose voice is very high-pitched, in the way that many people would use for baby talk (but she still uses a full vocabulary and isn’t condescending in her words, it’s just this pitch). I would never in a million years say anything to her about it – it’s her voice. She always talks like that, and the only thing that saying anything would do is make her feel poorly about speaking in front of me at all. It doesn’t impact whether or not I can understand her, so it’s not actually a problem, even if I would find a different tone of voice more pleasant to hear. Same with one of the employees at a store I frequent a lot, who has a very nasally voice, and one of my coworkers who often laughs in a very wheezing, breathy sort of way that puts my hair on end. They aren’t my favorite things to hear, but it’s not affecting their actual jobs in any way, so I would never actually say anything about it.

      Assume that it’s a way of speaking like an accent or regional dialect, chalk up your personal annoyance to cultural/regional differences and let it go. It’s not something you need to fix.

    5. Sylvan*

      I try to leave people alone about their speech unless I really can’t understand them. It feels condescending to tell an adult how to talk. If what they’re doing seems pretty easy to change (like dropping the volume of their voice towards the end of each sentence), I’ll say something after the second or third time I’ve asked them to repeat themselves.

    6. Chaordic One*

      Before “vocal fry” was a thing, I used to frequently run into a variation of it in older women who had smoked a lot and the smoking had probably affected their voices. (Strangely, many of these women, but not all, were Jewish.) They were all very professional workers who were respected in their workplaces and I would never have thought to say anything about it to them. I suppose that I don’t find it in older workers now, because so many people have quit smoking or don’t start to begin with.

      Even one of our former presidents had a bit of vocal fry (although Jay Pharoah did exaggerate it for comic effect).

      1. only acting normal*

        Vocal fry is also a common feature of upper class English men’s speech (those with Received Pronunciation (RP) accents). Funnily enough it isn’t considered a problem for them, probably because they are not young women.

  38. Xarcady*

    How do you cope when you have a coworker you don’t like at first sight?

    There’s a new member of our department, and something about her just makes me not like her.

    There is nothing bad that I know about her. I just feel as if she is not to be trusted. In many ways, she reminds me of Dolores Umbridge from the Harry Potter series.

    Fortunately, she’s not on my team, so while our work does coincide occasionally, it isn’t very often. I have no idea why I feel this way about her. It’s irrational. And yet I really don’t trust her.

    How do you prevent that from showing through in your interactions with someone?

    1. SoCalHR*

      Even if you had a very valid reason to not like her (which is sounds like you don’t…yet, haha), you still have to treat her with the same respect and professionalism as everyone else. Sure you may not be chummy with her, but there really is a baseline treatment of people that is required despite personal feelings (exceptions would be if she slept with your husband or kicked your puppy or something).

      I have a coworker like that, knew from the first second not to trust her and my gut ended up being right – so its not that your gut may be wrong. I still treat her the same, despite her not treating me with the basic respect I should be shown (as a coworker and as HR). Its a valuable skill to hone.

    2. Anon (this time)*

      The best way I’ve found to maintain professional and congenial relationships with coworkers who either a) give me such bad vibes that I want to run screaming or b) have actively treated me poorly is to detach, detach, detach. I do not invest in any conversation with them, and I keep our contact fairly limited as much as I am able.

      I think narcissistic abuse all my life weirdly trained me how to present a smiling face to someone I know is Not Safe for me, which has sadly come in handy in the workplace.

    3. Pollygrammer*

      Try really hard to examine why you feel this way. A boss once told me–cheerfully!–that she had immediately disliked a new hire and realized this was because the new hire reminded her of somebody she hated. She presented this as if it was totally reasonable and she didn’t intend to try to overcome it.

      1. Anon for this*

        I had a student once that I took an instant hate to and fear of. Couldn’t figure it out but he gave me the screaming heebie jeebies. Eventually I figured out that he reminded me of a guy that had assaulted me when I was a teenager. Once I figured that out, suddenly my hated and fear evaporated.

        However, I don’t want to imply that you should ignore your feelings. This coworker may well not be trustworthy. If you can’t figure out the reason you don’t trust her, then remember trust is earned not given. You don’t have to trust her, like her or be friendly to her. You have to be polite to her and professional in your dealings with her, that’s all.

    4. NicoleK*

      Been there, done that. It will be hard especially since your gut reaction is so strong. Try to assume she’s coming from a place of good intent. Be professional. That’s the best advice i can give.

    5. Lora*

      Pretend she is a customer at Xarcady’s Burger Joint. You don’t have to like her, you have to be polite and serve her a burger and fries.

      If you have time and are so inclined, you may wish to explore why it is you don’t like her. One dude who disliked me on first sight had an ex-wife who looked very similar to me. Someone I know through a hobby decided she disliked me because when she met me I was wearing a particular dress she hated, and she just couldn’t get over that pink dress. One woman I struggle not to hate looks a lot like my third grade teacher.

    6. Aurélia*

      I have a co-worker like that. I’ve been at newjob since April and the feeling hasn’t lessened. I keep doing what I’ve done since day one, give enthusiastic responses, “Thank you so much for that helpful input, Ivy!” to her incredibly un-helpful input, and try to cut any conversations off at the first opportunity. Professional, but not meaningful or lengthy in any way. My advice is to minimize interactions and up the flowery language at any opportunity to combat any accusations of being too brusque.

    7. Jill*

      Do you need to like a coworker in order to be professional? I’m sure there are coworkers who don’t like me (or my role), but nothing in their interactions with me are unprofessional.

      If you’re female, I’d be careful not to perpetuate negative stereotypes about women working together. I’ve observed, and experienced, troubling work dynamics that stem from the queen bee, the clique, the pretty/in shape new colleague, the better credentialled new colleague, the colleague who gets better assignments, the younger colleague, the younger and more senior colleague. What else….

    8. Lucille2*

      Treat her like you would a client. All professional, and keeping the relationship at arms length. The reason you feel this way will likely reveal itself eventually. If she simply reminds you of someone you don’t trust, then things will soften. But it’s possible your spidey sense is telling you something.

      I had some distrustful feelings about leadership from OldJob from the beginning. I discovered later on how dysfunctional they were and how accurate my intuition was. Fortunately, I moved on to BetterNewJob before the dysfunction could take me down with it.

    9. Blossom*

      Do consider that your instincts may be off. I was on the receiving end of this – a colleague seemed visibly suspicious of me from my first day, and though she would veil it with the bare minimum of civility, it felt pretty clear that I’d ruined her party just by showing up. I’ve never had that experience before or since, and it really soured what would otherwise have been a great workplace. I always wondered what everyone else there thought about it, since she was well-established and well-liked at that workplace. I got on fine with everyone else, but I always wondered if they thought I must be difficult or something, for the office clown to have taken against me. It was like I’d stepped into some ugly high school grudge that nobody would talk about.
      I believe strongly that the onus is on the established group to welcome the newcomer, not on the newcomer to blindly figure out the right acrobatic tricks to prove themselves worthy.

  39. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom

    Fergus is the crime reporter, and as such, has… interesting phone conversations. We all try and drown him out, because there’s only so much you can hear about the stripper map before you want to hurt someone. But try as we might to ignore him, some things just slip through. This week, one of the phrases was, “Unless that attorney puts a muzzle on her.” Lovely.

    Fergus is also not afraid of swearing. He has an outside voice as his inside voice, and normally, he could swear up a blue streak. Yesterday, however, he was talking to someone on the phone about one of the jailers. (Who he described, not by name, but as ‘you know, that BIG girl.) He starts talking about how she has a potty mouth, and how he couldn’t believe what she was saying. Blank blank this and blank that. And the most shocking part of it was that he wasn’t saying the words. I don’t know who he was talking to that he didn’t want to cuss in front of, but we were all shocked that he was so offended.

    As part of my job, I do the layout for those plaques that you see with newspaper stories on them. (Don’t buy one, they’re a waste of money. Just frame the article.) I am supposed to send them to Grandboss’s secretary to be proofed at the same time I send them to Advertising Boss’s secretary to be ordered. GB’s secretary approved it, and AB’s secretary was supposed to order it. This was about two weeks ago. I go on with my life. Wednesday, I get a call that why hasn’t that been ordered yet, haven’t I done it? I said yes, it was submitted two weeks ago to AB’s secretary. Not ten seconds later, she was getting paged over the intercom. She didn’t like the look of it, apparently, and felt that there were changes that needed to be made. She didn’t tell me what changes, but I guess I was just supposed to know.

    Grandboss wanted to order one of the plaques about a nascar race. He told me to get started on the layout, and he would get with his secretary about what size. I can’t do the layout unless I know the size. It took me a couple of hours to get a hold of her. She told me to do whatever I wanted.

    Yesterday afternoon, Farquad starts in how he doesn’t feel well. I didn’t respond, because I didn’t want to hear about how he hadn’t eaten, or did a ‘really hard’ workout, or whatever. This morning, though, he runs to the bathroom and begins throwing up in the bathroom. Which we can hear. From our desks. Thirty feet away.
    Jane asks Fergus a yes or no question. She is trying to get an answer and go back to work. He stands up from his desk and comes over and stands RIGHT behind me. (She and I sit across from each other.) He was in my bubble, which I did not appreciate, smelling like smoke, which I really didn’t appreciate, and taking way too long to come up with an answer.

    If I remember, I’m going to try and post in the open thread tomorrow about some of the things that recently have happened in the church nursery, because that is an adventure in and of itself.

    1. Emily S.*

      Please do share those, they sound juicy!
      (As I child I spent quite a lot of time in a church nursery, so I’m particularly interested.)

  40. Spooky*

    I should probably already know the answer to this, but say you’re in an academic certificate program. The last class finishes in December. Grades come out in either late December or early January. Presumably the certificate gets sent out in January (there is no formal graduation). Do you list it on your resume as completing the program and earning the certification in December (when you finished classes) or January (when the cert is mailed to you)?

    I feel stupid asking but I’m genuinely not sure. I’m guessing January but I wanted to check.

    1. Audiophile*

      I look at it the same way as finishing any other college program, I list at the completion of the coursework. In the case of my degree, I listed it when I graduated even though I didn’t get my degree in the mail until September or October.

      1. Audiophile*

        On my resume, I’ve always listed it in this format:
        Institution
        Institution city and state
        Degree
        Month and year of completion

        Now that it’s been many years since I completed my degree, I no longer list the month and instead list just the year.

      2. Kris*

        This. Also, if you ask your academic advisor, recorder, or registrar, they should be able to tell you what the date will be.

    3. Kuododi*

      When I finished my Masters in Marriage and Family Therapy, I completed the courses in December but the Pomp and Circumstances did not take place until the following July. On my resume, I would put MAMFT…Courses completed December xxxx
      Diploma conferred, July xxxx

  41. Audiophile*

    Has anyone used the “ask for a referral” feature on LinkedIn? I have a pretty wide network of contacts in different fields that work at companies that I’d be interested in working at. I’ve applied outside of LinkedIn, but a lot of places are moving solely to LinkedIn’s application system. I’m not sure whether it’s worth it to use the feature or just see what happens based on the profile information shared. I believe when you apply and you have a connection with an employee at the company, that may be shared, but I’m not certain.

  42. Purple soda*

    I am utterly confused about my future in a company admist rumors of contract termination.

    I just found out my contract ending the December is not going to be renewed. And to make an awkward situation even worse, I found it out second hand – a manager Mike told my coworker Jim while they were chatting over coffee. He probably didn’t reckon on Jim actually being good friends with me, because Jim passed along the information in secret.

    I was really surprised no one tried to talk to me about my (supposedly) bad work. My last performance review had actually been quite good! However, the signs were all there:

    1. I have become a BEC to Mike.
    2. A new team chat group being formed that doesn’t contain me at all.
    3. There being a re-org in the office, and bosses having talked to EVERYBODY about their new teams… except me.
    4. Various bosses constantly asking me about the current status of my work.
    5. Not getting any new work.
    I think I can pretty safely say that my termination is indeed not just a rumour.

    However, a boss recently approached me about my work in the team and asked me to ramp up some of my projects. He made no mention of the supposed contract termination, only asking me to look into planning some future company events. I also seem to still be involved in the team despite not being in the chat group. I am utterly baffled by this sudden new development. So am I staying or leaving? Is there a safe way to ask a boss “so… Eh, I heard I am gonna be fired soon, is that true?”

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I think you can frame it as a “as the end of the year/my contract is approaching, do you think it will be renewed” conversation, and with the re-org you can definitely frame it as “where do I fit in with the company during this transition period”, a sort of big picture discussion.

  43. Margaret*

    Would you consider it weird to have a sign on my cubicle saying “I have {noise cancelling} headphones on”

    The work environment is quite loud/distracting plus I work in a cubicle and can’t close the door (though the folks that have doors and walls aren’t at too much of an advantage: the walls are thin and sound travels through the vents very well). I wear these headphones nearly every day, but people still just stand behind me and talk to me for a while even though I am paying no attention to them.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      That sounds fine! I would maybe add a specific instruction as to how to get your attention, if you want them to knock or tap you on the shoulder or send up smoke signals or whatever. I wish more people would do that, actually!

      1. Margaret*

        I’m thinking of installing a rearview mirror, but I don’t know how folks would like that. I tried to flip my office around so folks couldn’t sneak up, but I have a window so the sun was too much glare

        1. NotaPirate*

          I’ve found I can leave a pair of sunglasses at the right angle to give me the rearview, the curvy lens works well so I can see the door. We have a office room with 20 some desks, my back unfortunately is to the door.

      2. Anonymosity*

        This. I often wore headphones while editing at Exjob and after one coworker startled me and made me jump so hard I scared her right back, I put up a sign. It had the Gates of Moria on it and said, “Speak friend and enter or knock if I’m wearing headphones.”

    2. Murphy*

      Yeah, I agree with Matilda, and I’d actually be concerned about looking like you don’t want people to approach you. I’d add something like “Please (knock/tap me/whatever if you need me!” Otherwise it just sounds like “I have taken measures to drown our your ceaseless noise.”

      1. Margaret*

        I don’t know, now that you’ve said it “I have taken measures to drown out your ceaseless noise” I’m really like it :P

    3. Nita*

      Might be a good idea. This is embarrassing in hindsight, but I thought for a long time that a coworker is incredibly rude and likes to ignore whoever stops by for a chat. She wears very small earphones, and has long hair that hides them completely. The light bulb went on only the day she randomly happened to see me come up to her cube, and pulled the earphones off to talk to me.

      1. Margaret*

        My favourite time this happened was when I was in my cube, I had semi-blocked the opening, put on my headphones, and pulled up my hoodie. I was *really* trying to get some stuff done. But one guy still walked in and started talking to me :/

    4. Jennifer Thneed*

      So, do you want them to not stand behind you or not enter your cube? That’s one goal. Do you want them to not just start talking? That’s a different goal.

      If you just want to know that they’re talking when they start, let your sign say something about “please tap my shoulder”. If you want them to just go away and not be there at all, it’ll be harder.

      How visible are the headphones? If they’re matte black, maybe do something to make them more visible to observers?

  44. Baby Fishmouth*

    Just want to rant here -I was up for another position at my university, and I was objectively probably the most qualified candidate out of the three of us that they interviewed. I had worked in similar departments at other universities doing the same job, I had years of personal and volunteer experience relating to the position, I had a related Masters degree, and I’ve been working at our university much longer with better performance reviews than her.

    The woman who got the position didn’t even meet the education requirements (required at least a 4 year degree; she has a 2 year diploma in completely unrelated subject), and her work experience prior to working here was completely unrelated minimum wage positions. However, she is good friends with the person leaving that position, so that was what it came down to in the end. Obviously, I’m angry, and it doesn’t help that all my colleagues keep telling me that they all thought I’d be getting the job. It’s completely making me reevaluate my life decisions. It sucks.

    2. Murphy*

      Ugh, I’m so sorry.

      I’ve also been in the position of not getting a promotion, and then having a million people come up and tell me that they’re shocked because I should have gotten it. I appreciated it in a way but it also just made me angrier at my superiors.

      1. Murphy*

        Meant to add…take some time to be angry and let the emotions die down before you make any decisions.

    3. Victoria, Please*

      Sigh. This is why HR rules actually are valuable, as much as we might complain about them. This would not have happened at my U because HR screens for requirements and we never would have seen this candidate.

      Sorry about this, it’s pretty epically unfair.

      1. Baby Fishmouth*

        Well they do that here too – but if the hiring manager knows somebody is applying who will get screened out, they can request that HR make an exception and send through that particular candidate. Which is exactly what happened in this case, unfortunately for me.

    4. KayEss*

      The last university I worked at, there were entire departments staffed this way–with totally inept workers who had an “in” with the director or another staff member–trying to do critical work like, say… student recruitment. Shockingly enough, between that and the president’s penchant for making contract decisions based on who gives him the best kickbacks, the entire school is now on the brink of financial collapse.

    5. UNI*

      Can you file a grievance over it? I can think of that happening twice at my university. Once in IT, Guy #1 felt he was more qualified for a job that Guy #2 got and he ended up winning his grievance and getting the position. The university couldn’t fire Guy #2 but had to find him another position somewhere else within the department. There was a bit of gossip over it, but it died down after a couple weeks.
      Another time in the Library, a guy felt he should have gotten a position that a woman received. He filed a grievance based on him having more seniority than her but he lost. Apparently her other qualifications won out over his seniority, which was the right call as he was known to be very lazy and hard to work with

        1. Baby Fishmouth*

          Oh, for sure – but I don’t necessarily want to be the person that got a job based on filing a grievance, I’d rather be in a position that I was wanted to be in. People talk a LOT here when that happens. Also, the person who got the job is a genuinely nice person and has had a lot of hard times in her life, so even though she’s certainly underqualified, she doesn’t deserve to have the rug pulled out from under her at this point. If I were more desperate for a position (toxic workplace, displaced employee, etc.), I probably would – but I don’t think it’s worth it as it is.

  45. Violaine*

    After nearly 2 months of waiting (extensive background check, moving, etc), I start my new job on Monday! I have enjoyed having the time off to get the house unpacked and the time I got to spend visiting with my family, but I am really ready to go back to work.

  46. soandso*

    Am I the only person who gets annoyed by people forwarding my emails without permission? I am a contractor within a company, where in the contract it states that I coordinate with one specific person (Jane) to complete my tasks. So if I need anything, I ask her, and she sources the information I need to do my job.

    So, I ask Jane to find out some information for me. She then forwards my email to the person who knows said information and just writes “please see soandso’s request below.” This annoys me – often times my emails are just quick ones, where they’re not phrased as nicely as they would be if I were sending them to an outside person. They also might contain confidential information that the other person shouldn’t necessarily be seeing!

    Obviously I just let this go and make a mental note to not write anything private in my emails to her. But grrrr.

    1. Washi*

      Ugh, yes, this is one of my pet peeves as well. My internal tone is often different as well, plus the people who do this also usually aren’t the best at making sure there isn’t any confidential information further downthread. I usually do say something in these situations – like “hey, just as a heads up, I’d generally prefer not to have my internal emails forwarded externally, since they often aren’t as polished as I’d like for external partners! Thanks!”

    2. Barbaric Yawp*

      Oh man, I can understand that frustration. I err on the opposite of always assuming something that may be seen by multiple parties though, which means sometimes I get too caught up in my tone not being too harsh when I should be more firm/direct. At this point though, I think you have the right idea to just assume your emails to Jane will likely be forwarded on. It’s probably a good rule of thumb, generally.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I don’t see where she’s doing anything wrong. If I got an email from someone and wasn’t the right person to answer the question, this is probably what I would do too.

      Now, if there is obvious confidential information involved, I’d maybe start noting that in the subject line.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I agree. I’d do the same thing, and would be surprised to find that you expected me to reword the question. I’d just write every email as if you knew it would be forwarded to someone else.

        1. Someone Else*

          In some contexts that’d be extremely inefficient. There should be certain things where it’s reasonable to use a shorthand with someone internally (because it’s their job to know what you mean) but where it’s a bad idea to forward (or copy paste) the same message to someone external, because it’s not their job to know what that means, and a client-facing version of same should be used. And it’s up to the middle-person to use good judgement for when that’s the case.
          For example, if a helpdesk person asks me if I have ideas about what are causing a certain problem for a client, it should be reasonable that I might say to the helpdesk person “it’s probably a DNS issue”. It’s not reasonable for that helpdesk person to forward my message without elaboration, or to simply say to the client “it’s probably a DNS issue”. Helpdesk Person should realize they need to be more specific than that with a client. I shouldn’t have to spell out step by step instructions for my colleague, because colleague doesn’t need them. Doesn’t mean the client doesn’t need them and shouldn’t receive them from helpdesk person.
          I know that’s not exactly the scenario OP was describing, but it’s why I relate to being frustrated about this sort of thing. It’s not that fwding is never reasonable, but you need to know enough about the situation to assess whether a particular message is appropriate vs whether it needs modification. Everything is written for a specific audience. When you fwd, you’re taking it from its intended audience to someone else. It’s when someone doesn’t take the moment to consider that audience, or doesn’t know enough to realize they haven’t considered that audience that this becomes a problem.

      2. Washi*

        I was imagining a scenario that often came up at my old job where I was a volunteer coordinator, and my teammates would need to ask me questions about a volunteer. It was fine for them to forward a question from a volunteer to me, but I would want them to be really careful about forwarding internal emails from to the volunteer. Like if they asked me “Are volunteers allowed to do X task?” and I was like “Yes, but I don’t think Jim would do well at that because he can be pretty flaky” I would not want that answer forwarded to any volunteers.

        And yes, the solution on my end is to be pretty careful about what I put in writing vs. IM or call to say, but sometimes you can’t avoid emailing stuff like that, and you need to be able to trust that your coworkers don’t forward your responses willy-nilly.

      3. Key Lime Pie*

        Agree. Sometimes I feel like half my job is forwarding emails to someone else who can respond. I am not going to edit for someone else’s tone. In general, never put anything in an email that you wouldn’t want accidentally forwarded to the person you’re talking about.

    4. SoCalHR*

      I have had this happen to me recently – agree its annoying and potentially risky. I’ve decided I need to step it up to be extra careful what I put in print.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      Look at it from Jane’s POV — what do you expect Jane to do — rewrite your email every time she needs to ask someone for information for you? I think the expectation here needs to be that Jane will forward the emails and draft them accordingly. If there really is information that you need Jane to see but that shouldn’t be forwarded, write “DO NOT FORWARD” somewhere in the subject line. She’s probably moving so fast that she isn’t noticing that there’s stuff that shouldn’t be forwarded, so it is important to alert her if that is the case.

    6. AnonForThisOne*

      This exact issue came up last year with one of our subcontractors, who vehemently objected to some of her emails being forwarded outside the team (both prime and subcontractors on a federal contract) to the customer. Prime Grandboss had a team meeting with both companies’ management present. He explained quite clearly that anything we produce, be it email, report, or scribbled sticky note, is project-related information belonging to the customer per the contract terms, and can be demanded at any time. As the prime contractor, my company is responsible for collecting and coordinating all info and products provided by the sub for delivery to the customer. If the sub has info that the customer should know, we’re going to forward it. He instructed all of us to treat emails as business letters. Keep them succinct, accurate, and written in professional terms, and retain for project records.

    7. The Hobbit*

      You’re definitely not alone there! It’s a peeve for me as well. It’s even worse when it’s forwarded out of the organization.
      One of my bosses has the habit of sending me a question about a procedure (not giving me any indications when it’s for him or for a customer), to which I give a quick/technical one, and just forwarding it to the customer with “see The Hobbit’s response below, contact her if you have any further questions”.
      It drives me up the wall, but dude owns the company, so I sigh and suck it up. x.x

    8. Crylo Ren*

      Yes, you should let this go. I would always assume that any email you send could potentially be forwarded to someone else, and take the extra time to phrase your communications accordingly.
      Or, if you’re not willing to do that, verbally set the expectation with your coworker that she should check with you first before she immediately forwards your email to someone else.

    9. Susan K*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, unless you specifically said the information was confidential. I just keep in mind when I send e-mails that they could be seen by other people, which is really the case with anything you send through your work e-mail. Since you know Jane does this, can you just write all requests as though you were sending them to an outside person?

      I try to be careful when I forward something or add someone into a chain of previous e-mails. I’ll occasionally remove something the original sender clearly didn’t intend for someone else to see (e.g., personal criticism of someone not in the original e-mail chain), but I wouldn’t feel the need to edit or keep confidential something that just isn’t phrased perfectly or has bad spelling/grammar/punctuation.

    10. Natalie*

      Aside from what others have said, I wouldn’t worry too terribly much about how you’ve phrased things. People are generally going to understand that the email was phrased a particular way that is comfortable for your relationship/communication style with Jane, they’re not going to be offended that it was a little casual.

    11. soupmonger*

      Tough – if you don’t want your emails forwarded in the phrasing they’re in, then change your phrasing and start sending more polished emails. Once you write and send an email, it’s not yours anymore, it’s out there in the public domain. If you don’t want anyone to see what you’re written, then make a phone call instead. You can’t control what people do with an email once sent.

    12. Thlayli*

      Sorry but I think you are way off-base here. This is normal. Do you think she should write a separate mail rephrasing your request or something?

  47. k8*

    just started a new job on monday, and I have to say, everything’s been really great . . . except for the fact that we don’t have individual trashcans at our desks, lol. I’m so used to being able to toss out my banana peels and various paper scraps by just reaching down, so having to get up every time I need to throw something away feels so weird!

    1. NotaPirate*

      Could you get one of those small fabric collapsible cans from amazon or wherever? They store flat in a drawer, and you could use it for tissues etc at your desk then dump it when you next get up. I’ve also seen tiny amusing ones that go on top of desks.

    2. Yvette*

      Could you bring in plastic grocery bags, and use one a day and toss it in the trash at the end of the day? If paper has to be re-cycled or shredded, you could just leave it in a corner of your desk til the end of the day?

    3. nd*

      Haha, we do have individual trashcans in our offices but I never use mine. Here’s why: 1) Can’t stand having food waste and associated odor in my office and 2) I like the movement involved in getting up to throw something away. I tend to re-use paper for notes/scrap, so I throw away less.

    5. Jerry Vandesic*

      Just use the bottom drawer in your desk. Clean it out once a month. Add some Fabreze as needed.

  48. Matilda Jefferies*

    I’m looking for some help with the introductory paragraph of a cover letter, if there are any wordsmiths out there!

    Background: I’ve been working in Teapot Policy since 2000 (!), always in related and progressively responsible positions. I’m now applying for a job as a Teapot Analyst. Analytics is one of the components that falls under the umbrella of Policy, so I do have some experience in it, although my career to date has focused on the broader aspects of Policy as a whole, rather than the specific aspect of Analytics.

    When I’m applying for Policy jobs, I usually say “I have X years of experience in Policy,” then go on to talk about how great I am at all the various components of it. For this one, I can’t really say that, but I also can’t say I have 18 years of experience in Analytics, because it’s not actually true. So, does anyone have any thoughts for what that sentence could be instead? (This is the second sentence of my introductory paragraph, right after “Please see attached for my resume.” So it doesn’t need to be super detailed, just a transition between the intro and the content.)

    2. Amylou*

      Something like this? (Sorry if they’re a bit choppy)

      In X years in Policy I have frequently/increasingly worked in Analytics and am looking to make this my full time career.

      Analytics has frequently figured/fallen under my responsibilities in my X year career in Policy, and found it so interesting/one of my strengths, now looking to make this my full time career/job. This is why I’d be great at it: reason A B C.

    3. Aurélia*

      Something like, “I am excited to build on my nearly twenty years in Policy and apply my myriad skills and abilities to this fantastic Tea Pot Analyst position with Y organization.” perhaps?

  49. CmdrShepard4ever*

    I have a question about co-worker wedding invites. I have read here that in a small office you should invite everyone or no one. But I have a few modifiers. I have co-workers that I have worked with for a few years and a couple ex-coworkers that recently left that I also worked with for a few years. We had a new co-worker and a new boss, for our entire team of less than 10 people, join a few months ago. Ideally I would like to invite the few co-workers and the one ex-coworker that I have known for a few years, but not invite my co-worker and boss who just joined us a few months ago. I really like and enjoy working with my boss but I don’t know that I would feel like I could really let loose with my boss attending. Plus I also don’t even know if my boss would want to go and put him in an awkward situation of feeling like he has to go. Technically if you only count the actual co-workers that would be invited it would be an even split. But if you count the recent co-workers that left there would be more from my job invited than not invited. Right now I’m leaning toward just not inviting anyone from work to avoid any hurt feelings. But I would like to invite a few of the co-workers I am closer with and have known longer.

    1. Anon today*

      I know how you feel. I am getting married and ran into the same issue. I think that even split is already too many for people to not feel slighted. People who don’t want to go can always say that they are busy so I wouldn’t worry that you are putting them in an awkward position. I ended up just inviting my whole team because there were less than 10 people total.

    2. Anon-mama*

      If you are friends with the co-workers you would invite (like, you’ve done things socially outside of work), then I personally think it’s fine. My husband invited the one teammate he was close with (out of 8). I know at least a couple of coworkers (out of 12) got invited to a recent wedding celebration of one of our fellow employees. If you do go that route, make sure to mail the invitations and keep wedding talk to a minimum.

    3. whistle*

      Unless your boss is a vindictive jerk, I think you should invite the ones you want to invite. Any reasonable person would understand not being invited to wedding for someone they have known less than a year. (And likely would not want to go to a wedding for someone they have known less than a year.)
      Also, if you are concerned about the math, I say the people who recently left certainly don’t count b/c they won’t be in the office talking about the wedding. They are simply friends at this point, and you can invite any friends to your wedding that you want to.

    4. Paige*

      You could probably invite the ex-coworker without having to worry about anything, at least. Beyond that, it’s really a toss-up what to do. I would lean towards not inviting anyone, but that’s my own aversion to mixing work/home life peeking through.

      Just accept that no matter how hard you try not to, who you choose to/not to invite to your wedding will piss *someone* off. It’s pretty much inevitable.

    5. Crylo Ren*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with inviting the coworkers and ex-coworker that you are close to. Couldn’t you just hint to the coworkers that you are inviting that they should keep it on the DL? A former boss of mine invited me to her wedding – just me and no one else on our team, because we worked closest together. She didn’t need to state it in those exact terms, but I got the hint that I shouldn’t go around crowing about it. Your coworkers will follow your lead.

      1. Natalie*

        No hinting necessary, just explicitly tell them! “I’m only inviting a few people from the office so please don’t talk about the wedding at work”

    6. Thlayli*

      Option 1 ( my preference): It’s your wedding. Screw the “rules” and invite who you damn well like.

      Option 2: kindergarten birthday party rules. If you are inviting only some, make sure it is half or less of the group. Ignore the coworkers who’ve left – they are not part of the group. It sounds like you’re only inviting half of your office. You’re good.

  50. Never*

    Anybody have secret advice on how to deal with a higher-up who makes completely incorrect statements with complete conviction? For instance, my project lead will insist that form X is for project Y several times when actually it’s for project X, and I’m the one who would know better because I actually work hands-on with the forms while they just see the results of my work.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Ooh, that’s annoying. Most of the time, I think I could probably grind my teeth and let it go. Unless there’s an actual impact, like he’s using Form X for Project Y and it’s causing all sorts of chaos, it’s probably easier not to get into an argument about it. If he’s just *talking* about the forms and not actually using them, you could correct him once, or just smile and nod and move on. If it’s in the category of “irritating but otherwise harmless,” it’s probably not worth doing anything about it.

    2. Brownie*

      All depends on the level of the higher-up. For a department head it’s annoying, but acceptable, for them to be wrong about details since they’re not involved in the details. For a project lead… that’s fuzzy territory. If it’s an ongoing pattern where they’re constantly making the exact incorrect statement over and over then it might warrant something like “Hey, fyi, form X is for project X, not Y”. If it’s more of an ongoing thing where they’re not getting details right across the board it might be worth asking coworkers if they’ve noticed that too and going to a supervisor/boss for advice. Having dealt with the latter only this morning my boss told me that the person in question has filed for retirement and is in “retirement mode” which means I’ll ignore it. It’s really context dependent.

  51. Emma*

    Can we talk about how completely weird the training and hiring conventions are in the tattoo/piercing/body modification industry??? I’m looking into becoming a professional piercer and there is no formalized training other than apprenticing under a qualified piercer…except that half of the body mod world also seems to be strangely snide about apprentices in general?? Also apparently it is perfectly acceptable to just cold email piercers to ask about apprenticing with them. I’m coming from the nonprofit world and am feeling very thrown by the informality, although I guess it’s to be expected in such a small niche industry. Still- WEIRD.

    1. Marge Gunderson*

      When I was making a career transition I considered body piercing and ended up not even trying because of exactly this!

  52. anonny for this one*

    Reposting from last week’s open thread, because I got there super late.

    I really need some advice on coming out trans at work.

    I work in a very LGBTQ-unsupportive office that is also a small business, and am fully aware that I will most likely need to find another job soon after, which is fine. I’ve outgrown this job, and the pay, as is, but I would still like to get out of here with decent references and no seriously burned bridges. Ideally speaking, I’d just leave without coming out, ASAP, but my job search has been slow. I’m on HRT, the physical changes are harder and harder to hide, the mental and psychological strain of pretending to be someone I’m not is immense, and to top it off, I’m about to have pretty obvious gender confirmation surgery. I don’t want to keep hiding after surgery, and am not looking forward to a really awkward conversation with my manager.

    I’ve already gotten some insights from other folks who’ve gone through this, and hit up the relevant subreddit, but I want some advice from a professional stance, and less from a trans person stance. How would you prefer to hear this from your employee?

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I’d suggest talking to an employment lawyer before you say anything. Cover your bases.

          1. anonny for this one*

            I think it’s less likely that they’ll outright try to get rid of me, and more like let the employees who will have a problem with me set the tone in the office.

            1. Snark*

              That’s still workplace discrimination against a protected class, and you can make it clear that legal protections apply to a hostile work environment.

              1. anonny for this one*

                I’m slightly concerned they’ll try to turn it into some sort of religious debate. Though at least I’m not trying to buy a cake from them.

                1. Snark*

                  That’d be a goddamn brilliant response to a religious debate. “Lemuel! I’m not asking you to bake me a wedding cake, I just want you to call me my name.”

              2. Natalie*

                That’s not a magic wand, though – if anon’s office wants to make it unpleasant for them* they certainly can and then anon’s only legal recourse is a slow and not remotely guaranteed process. It’s worth recognizing that retaliation is possible and planning for it, even if that’s just stealing yourself to get through a few months.

                *I didn’t see pronouns specified anywhere; sorry if I missed them!

    2. Snark*

      I mean, I’d just want a forthright and plain statement: “Boss, just so you know, I’m transitioning to {gender}, prefer {pronouns} and would like to start using the name {name.}” And my reaction would be “Awesome, congratulations, so happy for you, please let me know if you need any help or get pushback from folks, thanks for letting me know.” But all that is predicated on the fact that I am not a garbage person. If you work for garbage people, I’d probably state it just as plainly, but expect some misgendering and general performative cluelessness and sandbagging, and I’d be prepared if you’re not in a state where trans is a protected class yet.

      Best of luck getting the hell out of there and into a workplace that doesn’t police gender norms.

      1. Curious Cat*

        Indeed, a +100 to all Snark said. State it matter-of-factly and non-negotiable, and hopefully you get very very little (even better, none at all) push-back from anyone in your office. I’m sorry the place you work is not LGBTQ+ friendly, my heart hurts for that, and I hope you feel like you can still work there safely in the meantime.

        Congratulations on your upcoming gender confirmation surgery, and good luck on getting out of this toxic environment as fast as humanly possible!

        1. Snark*

          Yeah. This is not a favor you’re asking. If one can get married and change their name and get no pushback going by their new surname, your request is neither without precedent in most people’s experience nor hard to accomodate, and should not be negotiable.

          And seconded, so much, that I hope you feel safe and, failing accepted, at least tolerated at work. And congratulations – I’m happy for you.

          1. anonny for this one*

            You’re right. I don’t know why it feels like I’m asking for a favor. Maybe because this place is a bit ‘but we’re faaaaamily’, and there’s no real HR, or a real management structure, just one boss who ranges from completely hands-off to micromanaging depending on the situation, employee, mood, what day it is. And boss’s boss, who is much the same, but usually not present in the office.

            1. Snark*

              Ooof. In a place like that, this goes double. If they feel like they’ve got agency in this, their Feelings on the matter will run wild.

        2. anonny for this one*

          It ranges from neutral/clueless, to hostile, to ‘love the sinner’, unfortunately.

          Thank you!

      2. Teapot librarian*

        I’d want exactly what Snark said. I would not react as well because I am terrible at reacting in the moment (I for sure wouldn’t think to say to let me know if you got pushback) but I’d for sure come back after my brain caught up and say helpful things.

        I’m sorry that it sounds like you work for garbage people currently, and I hope that being able to live as your authentic self helps with your job search. Congratulations on the surgery!

        1. anonny for this one*

          Thank you!

          Honestly, I don’t know if it’s going to help with the job search; right now, the combo of my phone voice and subsequent in person appearance is not doing wonders for me. But hopefully that becomes less relevant, and my confidence makes up for it at least some.

          1. Zula Forthrast*

            For what it’s worth, I’m a hiring manager and I really like it when people just use their preferred name as the only name on their resume and include a line with the contact info at the top that just says “preferred pronouns: ____ /_____”. It makes it super easy for me to proceed with confidence in our interactions and there’s no awkwardness/surprise if their voice is different on the phone or their appearance is not what I expected in person.

            Congrats on your transition and good luck with your job search! I hope you get out of that toxic environment.

            1. anonny for this one*

              I am really reluctant to do the preferred pronouns thing, because that, frankly, feels like a surefire way to get denied opportunities I could otherwise get. Is specifying pronouns unprompted common in your industry/region?

      3. anonny for this one*

        A plain statement makes sense. It’s such an emotional and fraught situation for me, obviously, that it’s hard to remember that it doesn’t have to be, and in this case, doesn’t need to be. Thank you for reminding me of that!

        Unfortunately, I am definitely expecting misgendering, general cluelessness, and possibly outright balking, and very likely some coworkers throwing a fit about bathrooms. My state has added gender expression to the protections, but I just don’t expect that to make much of a difference in this particular office.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          Ugh, I’m so sorry your job is full of garbage people, and hope you find a new job soon!

          Congrats on the transition.

        2. Snark*

          Then I think continuing a firm, no-nonsense, no apologies tone is going to be best. “I did let you know last week that I prefer {name.} That hasn’t changed.” “As I’ve said, I’m no longer a ‘he.'” “My commitment to being professional both inside and outside the bathroom hasn’t changed, and you really have nothing to worry about when I use the bathroom that matches my gender.” In kind of a patient, high school teacher kind of tone.

          1. anonny for this one*

            What would you suggest in the case of “I can hear coworkers gossiping about it unpleasantly behind my back”? I am almost sure this will happen, as it tends to happen about lesser things/people’s situations here regularly. It’s, unfortunately, that kind of place, and I really do want out before it’s rubbed off on me too much.

            1. Snark*

              “Hi guys! Really happy to answer any questions or concerns you have, and I know this is probably a new situation for y’all, but gossip behind my back feels more mean spirited than I know y’all really are.” Biiiiiig grin.

              I feel really weird being the cis het guy giving you scripts for this, but this is basically exactly how my spouse has been handling some weirdness at work around being bi and nonbinaryish, so….yeah?

              1. anonny for this one*

                Nah, it’s not weird. This place is weird, it’s dysfunctional, and I feel like I’ve forgotten what regular normal workplaces are like, and how people in them are supposed to interact. It’s why I have this hang-up of “ack, how to handle this here”, because I sure don’t have this hang-up elsewhere. I’ve had zero issues correcting my pharmacist, a barista at a coffee shop I go to regularly, etc. But when I think of how to handle it in the office, I suddenly remember all the crappy things that have ever happened there, and start drawing a blank on what to actually do. Thank you again!

    3. Thlayli*

      I am 100% supportive of trans rights – however I do know a few old fashioned people who would be very uncomfortable with one of their coworkers/employees doing this, and I’m going to base my opinion on how I think those people would feel. Please bear in mind in any responses that I personally have no problem whatsoever with trans people.

      I suggest trying to make it as non-threatening, simple and easy to understand for your boss as possible. Tell them exactly what will be changing in a matter of fact way (my voice will get deeper and I will start to sound like a man. I will start to grow facial hair and will start to look like a man. I will wear Male clothes and will legally change my name). If there is likely to be any impact on their business think about this in advance and think about how you could deal with this and what changes you would be willing to accept to reduce the impact on the business and present the ideas you’ve had to solve it (I realise this might upset some of our key clients. I suggest that I don’t meet any of these clients for a period of time while my voice is changing and my facial hair is growing. I estimate after two months I will look very different and I can then meet the clients again. We can just say that I am [new name], the new man in x department, and not mention that I used to be [oldname]). Tell them how they and your coworkers should treat you. (You don’t have to treat me any differently. I don’t expect to become “one of the guys” and go on your Friday trips to hooters or anything haha, just treat me the same as always and I’ll behave the same as always too. The only thing that changes is my appearance, my name, and you say he instead of she.)

      A lot of the reason people are freaked out by trans people is because they don’t understand it and they don’t know what to expect. Take the uncertainty out and give some info about how to behave and what to expect, and you might find they will be a lot more tolerant than you think.

      I hope.

      Good luck and I hope you find a more LGBT friendly workplace soon.

      1. anonny for this one*

        I understand where you’re coming from here, but I really don’t think it should not be up to me to educate everyone so thoroughly. They can do at least some of the legwork without me describing how puberty works, or suggesting we tell clients I am an entirely new person. The idea that there is automatically an impact on the business because an employee transitions really rubs me the wrong way, too. If they’re uncomfortable (intolerant), me going into this extreme detail is not going to magically make them comfortable, but it sure as heck is going to be unpleasant for me.

    4. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Really late to the party on this one, but is there anyone in your office that you can count on to correct people for you if/when they misgender or say something clueless but heinous? I’ve taught a number of newly out trans teens and having peers who will speak up seems to have more of an impact than if I step in first. If there’s even one person who will consistently say “Dead name? Don’t you mean Bob (or Jane as the case may be)?” it might take some of the pressure off.
      Congrats and best of luck in your search for a better work environment!

      1. anonny for this one*

        Possibly-maybe. I have a sympathetic coworker, but sympathetic more in the realm of “I don’t understand it, and can’t we all just get along” rather than “please stop deadnaming Alice”. Thank you!

  53. Megsley*

    I’m curious how other managers out there handle things when they make mistakes.

    If it’s an overreaction to something or saying something you should have. I’m just curious how others handle it when they know they didn’t handle a situation correctly.

    1. SoCalHR*

      I think it depends on how big of a deal it is…. 1) make sure you’re own anxiety/self consciousness isn’t making it to be a bigger issue than it is and 2) I think a simple apology for a simple mistake is always valued (“hey Jane, I know I got a little heated with you the other day when we were discussing X, I’m sorry, I’ll try to keep it reigned in a bit more”). My take is that people appreciate this type of thing.

    2. Anonaswell*

      It really depends on the level of the mistake. Generally, acknowledge, apologize, fix it, move on. That is the best strategy for mistakes generally.

    3. The Hobbit*

      First: I freak out internally, decide that this is how I lose my job, and call myself names several times.

      Second: Assess the true damage of the mistake (internal/external), what will be needed to fix it and how long it will take.

      Third: Go to the person above me, let them know I’ve made a mistake already with a contingency plan in place and whatever inconveniences I can take to make it smoother planned out.

      Fourth: Go home and freak out again, privately, until I’m sure things will be okay.

      YMMV, though. But really, anxiety aside, most mistakes are not world-ending. Even if it’s super uncomfortable and one feels disappointed at themselves for making said mistake.

      1. Megsley*

        Thanks for that :) I tend to beat myself up over small things. I was curious how others handle issues that are small, big or imagined.

        1. The Hobbit*

          Oh, I do too, I feel you there. Which’s why I allow myself a few minutes to freak out completely before I start thinking. You’re in good (or bad, who knows?) company there. :)

      2. General Ginger*

        That’s about the same as my steps. Though sometimes I freak out and swap three and two (don’t do that).

        1. The Hobbit*

          I’m somewhat glad to know I’m not the only one who freaks out big time. On the other hand, it sucks that so many of us do x.x

    4. Teapot librarian*

      Obviously it’s situation dependent, but the time I lost my temper with my Hoarder Employee and implied to his face that he is a hoarder, I apologized in person. I then followed up with a longer apology by email. (It was very difficult not to write “I’m sorry I called you a hoarder, but you are one.”)

    5. Key Lime Pie*

      Identify the mistake ASAP, and acknowledge it was my mistake
      + Genuine “I’m sorry” apology (No “I’m sorry, but…” or “I’m sorry you feel…”)

      I once snapped at someone in a meeting for being terrible at following up on things. I might have actually said she was “the worst” at it, and then I might have complained about how she never responds to email. Ideally I would have apologized for the extremely unprofessional comment right after I said it. I did talk with her afterwards and profusely apologize for the unprofessional behavior, then quietly went around to apologize to everyone else (including my boss) who was at the meeting. No one seemed as appalled as I was, possibly because, as with Teapot librarian’s hoarder, my horrible comment was totally true. I still can’t believe it actually popped out of my mouth, though.

    6. The Doctor*

      If I made the mistake, I own it.

      If others make the mistake and want to blame me, OH HELL NO. I refuse to fall on anyone else’s sword.

  54. Washi*

    Lolspeak feels different than the others to me because it’s different vocabulary, which generally people have complete control over whether or not they use.(Same with the other “languages” you mention, and also baby talk.)

    For the others like upspeak and vocal fry, if it’s a peer or a supervisor, I would go the route of focusing on the information and reminding myself that there’s no one right way to speak, and that it’s all rules that people made up. For a close friend or a direct report, if their speaking style was really distracting and I was pretty sure it was changeable, I might talk to them about how they are most likely being perceived based on that style so that if they would like to continue doing it, it’s at least a conscious decision with the pros and cons in mind (this is definitely for upspeak, vocal fry would have to be very…dramatic for me to mention it.)

  55. Llama Wrangler*

    I posted a few weeks ago for Outlook tricks — it was very helpful; thanks! I’m now running into a problem that I haven’t been able to solve using their help forum or google searches. For some reason, whenever I insert a link into an email using exchange’s webapp (which is what I have to use mostly), it creates an extended link with a bunch of redirection to exchange, rather than a direct link. Even if I use the button to create a hyperlink, once I hit any key, it will add a duplicate, corrupted link. Has anyone encountered this? Any idea of if it’s fixable? Thanks in advance!

    1. tab*

      Right click the link, select the “Edit Hyperlink…” option, and then you can change the link to whatever you like. It’s a good idea to test the link after you do this.

  56. Waiting for Pay Day*

    My department (Department A), will be merging with Department B soon. For this post, I’ll call the new department that is going to be formed Department C. Currently, people in Department B make a higher hourly rate, plus they also receive monthly performance-based incentives. Unfortunately as a current employee of Department A, I am not eligible for any incentives as it stands. Once the merger is complete, we’ll be crossed trained in Department B’s duties and vice versa. There will no longer be a distinction between Department A and Department B responsibilities, because we’ll all be performing the same role in Department C.

    My coworkers and I who have been in Department A approached HR, asking if our pay will be raised to the Department B rate and if we’ll be eligible for the performance-based incentives. Since we’ll all share the same position in Department C, it only makes sense that former employees of Department A have compensation on par with those who came from Department B. HR told us that at this point, no changes in compensation is planned.

    Everyone in Department A is very frustrated that we’ll be doing the same duties as those who were in Department B but for less pay. It seems very inequitable. Is there any recourse we can take? All of us have approached HR stating that it is a matter of fairness, but the higher-up’s do not seem to have any intention of listening to us.

    2. WellRed*

      I have no advice, but that sucks. I don’t think framing it as a matter of “fairness” is the right way to go, however I can’t put my finger on why. at any rate, I predict morale issues will strike very soon AND they will see that they can’t give performance incentives to only half the team.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Oh that’s a pile of hot garbage. I’m sorry.

      It sounds like maybe some job-hunting should be conducted.

    4. CAA*

      This is something you should discuss with the manager of Department C. Not that it was wrong to go to HR, just that now you know you need management backing to get a change implemented. Your manager may be able to get things evened out at the next annual review, or you may find out that the Dept A pay scale is the one that everyone will use in the end and the Dept B people have been grandfathered in for some period of time instead of being made to take an immediate pay cut.

      You might also be able to approach this with your manager and HR as an equal pay for equal work violation if most of the people on the lower end of the pay scale would be female while the higher end would be mostly male. You’ll need to do some research on your state’s laws to see if this would be applicable.

  57. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Hey, I hope you won’t mind if I remove this comment — I think we talked about this last time when I said I wouldn’t want it to be a repeated thing because these threads are so long already and I try to keep them to genuinely useful advice. (I’m sorry! I do think they’re funny! Just fighting really long open threads that some people say they don’t wade into because the comment number is overwhelming.)

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      And I just went back and checked to make sure I hadn’t imagined that, and I see that I wasn’t clear — I made it sound like it was fine occasionally but not regularly. But I’m grappling with how to control already unruly comment numbers so I hope you understand!

      1. Snark*

        Yeah, was going to say – I thought it was ok on an occasional basis, but I’m more than happy to not do it at all. Sorry.

  58. Red Robin Yum*

    I’m in a weird situation. My partner of a decade told me recently she’s not sure if she wants to be with me anymore. We are currently in counseling together to try to make it work. We live in a high cost of living area, and if we were to break up, I would not be able to financially afford to stay here. She makes a lot more money than me and could easily afford it. I would have to move back to my home state. The issue is that I am in the process of interviewing for a new position that would pay me 30% more than what I’m currently making. This would still not be enough for me to afford to stay here. We just signed another year’s lease on our apartment a month ago, and we’ve agreed that even if we break up, we’re going to continue to room together until the lease is up. Is it wrong to pursue this new position, knowing I’m going to have to move in a year? The extra money would definitely help in terms of saving up for things I would need for the move (a car, furnishing an apartment), but I know there’s a long lead time in terms of training, and I wonder if the company would think badly of me if I am offered the position and accept it, knowing I’m not going to be able to stick around.

    Of course, I could not get the job at all and this would all be moot, but I’m just looking for an outside opinion. Thanks.

    1. whistle*

      You have to take care of yourself first. A year is long time, and anything can happen. Don’t withdrawal from the process, and if they make an offer you like, take it. Do not feel any guilt over this.

      1. Washi*

        Right, a lot could happen over the course of that year. It would be a little different if you were planning to go to grad school, or leave on your own, or something of your own volition. But you shouldn’t turn down an opportunity because there is the potential that you might be forced to leave (which an employer would also be much more sympathetic to and therefore probably not jeopardize your reference.)

        That said, living together for almost a year after you’ve broken up sounds really tough. I’m skeptical of that more than I am of jumping on this new opportunity!

    2. Lumen*

      Jobs are not marriages and you are allowed to exchange your time and labor for capital for however long that arrangement works for you. Lots of employers will try and bypass this fundamental truth of how jobs work by citing “we’re a family” or whatever their BS-of-choice is, but ultimately: you are not doing something Wrong by pursuing (and hopefully securing) a job that will give you a significant increase in capital.

      And as whistle pointed out: you have to take care of YOU, and a lot can happen in a year.

      Go for it. Do not talk about what ‘might’ happen in a year. It’s none of their business.

      And good luck on the relationship side of things – that can be hard even on the best of terms.

    3. Holly*

      A year is actually a decent amount of time to stay at a job before realizing you have to move. There’s no reason to be concerned about that.

      The only concern I have is the impact on you if you have to live with an ex for a YEAR. You didn’t ask advice about that, so I’ll let it be, but I sincerely hope you think deeply about that choice. And it is a choice.

    4. Elisabeth*

      Would you be willing to or able to seek our other roommates? Or to maybe lease a basement apartment or an apartment above a garage situation? Or is it the all-around cost and not just housing? I know, for me, I was able to live alone in the ‘burbs, but if I wanted to move into the city, it would mean taking on roommates and shared expenses.

      1. Holly*

        Yes, I was thinking that – even in NYC, its worth it to find other roommates for affordability in that type of situation.

      2. Red Robin Yum*

        I’m pushing 40 and have zero interest in living with roommates, but even if I was interested, the average cost of a room in my city is still more than I could comfortably afford on my own. I really make a very small amount of money. One of the reasons I’m trying to find a new thing.

    5. T3k*

      Is the high rent just in the city part or all around? I know not ideal, but if possible, could look for places with lower rent outside the usual radius. I also second Elisabeth’s suggestion about finding roommates if you want to stay.

    6. Emily S.*

      Absolutely try to get that new job. People move, relationships end, things happen. Just do what is best for you.

      And good luck! Sounds like a tough situation.

    7. Denise*

      Well, don’t be afraid to look hard in your home state now. If you can’t afford to stay in the city, you don’t owe your ex-spouse a roommate. She can find someone to share expenses.

  59. Anon for this*

    Wish me luck, everyone! This afternoon I’m going to do my best to nicely but firmly tell my boss that it’s NOT OK for her to start asking me about my sex life after a few drinks when a vendor takes us to a sports game. It’s happened twice now.

    (We’re both engaged/married het women; I think it’s a really awkward and unprofessional attempt at either bonding or joking on her part.)

    3. Lumen*

      Yikes. Good for you for having the wherewithal to set this boundary with your boss. It’s important and healthy.

      And this is less important, but you’re doing her a favor: she could get into serious trouble behaving this way with others, too.

    5. Anon for this*

      Update: It went well! I mostly stuck to my script, and she apologized, said it wouldn’t happen again (and wouldn’t have happened sober), and thanked me for letting her know it made me uncomfortable. Score for Using My Words!

  60. Barg*

    So I openly refused to work with a manager, and I feel like I didn’t handle the lead up to me snapping well. He’s got issues.

    It started our first night together. I work in a stockroom, and the first night I was working stock, I wasn’t trained (I was never actually trained, really), so I just pulled merchandise I was told to be pull. Turns out there was a mistake (basically, every aisle got dropped into one list of merchandise pulls, so instead of being sorted, it was a confused mix, and only one person can work on a list at a time, which was me). This mistake meant we were nowhere near done with our workload, and the guy who messed up the list admitted it the next day. This manager didn’t know that, I didn’t know it (I wasn’t trained or communicated with, I just worked the lists I was given), and this manager (who I hadn’t met before) got angry, pulled me out to the sales floor, and spent ten minutes tearing into me about how angry he was, about how my work ethic is clearly unacceptable, about how I need to be written up immediately, and about how he will not, to quote, be tolerating laziness or stupidity. All over circumstances beyond my control and understanding.

    Then I developed issues with two other TMs who wouldn’t answer my questions reliably (and I’m not trained on my job), wouldn’t show me where gloves were when we worked freezer, and were cobsistently annoyed with my autism driving my anxiety up the wall because I don’t know what I’m doing and my manager just yells.

    I told my manager I can’t communicate with the other guys and he asked me why I think that is, I told him about the autism, and he just said maybe I’m too autistic to do my job, then. I went and told the store manager about my concerns, but left the autism comment out of the discussion to avoid making waves, and got transferred to a different team. Where I’m still untrained, and then the manager I was transferred away from took over half my team, myself included. After a while I felt utterly useless to my team, because I don’t know how to do my job and am slow, error ridden, and stand around confused too much, and told my supervisor, the store manager, and HR that I’m worthless to the team and don’t really have a place, nd told HR about the autism comment.

    Nothing was addressed with the manager, I was told next week I switch to working in electronics (my old position before I joined the stock team), but until then I still work with this manager. Yesterday he didn’t understand my method of staging video games as I sort through games that are discontinued, located on unbuilt shelves, and located on built shelves, so he throws up his hands, points at my work area, and says “This? This is retarded. We’re doing something else.”, which set the employee behind me howling with laughter. Not the first time he’s used that work on the sales floor, either. At this point I went to his boss, said I won’t work with this person anymore, and I got sent over to books, but management is annoyed as hell at me because you can’t just refuse to work under someone, and that manager who said it is royally pissed because he got tattled on.

    I’m wondering where I handled things wrong. This is settled, because next week I’m working afternoon and evening electronics shifts instead of overnight stock or plano, and I’m quitting the week after because it’s obvious I lack value here, but I can’t help the feeling this could be better handled on my part.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Oh dear, this is really tough. First of all this person should NEVER have used a pejorative like “retarded” so they are really badly in the wrong there. You might even have a disability discrimination case there. But in general, I don’t know how well you can ever you can “refuse,” as a junior person, to work with a supervisor. It is much more likely that you would be fired and they would retain the senior person (even if they suck and you are great, that’s just what I’ve noticed. They’ve generally invested more in training and onboarding senior people). You could bring up the issue of them using that word, but sadly you’d still likely have to do it in a we’re-all-on-the-same-team way to get good traction and not lose your own power.

    2. SoCalHR*

      Hi Barg, I’m sorry you’re facing this challenge. My initial take is that you didn’t give top management/HR enough information to properly help you. Instead of just saying “I can’t work with this person” you may need to say “I’m having challenges because I haven’t been fully trained and it would be helpful for me if my manager did xyz to help me.” If you feel your autism is part of this issue between your manager’s understanding of how you work, then you may need to bring this up. This not only gives them more info, but it also shows your taking the perspective that you’re willing to work on things, because if you just keep saying “I can’t work with this person” it very well could lead to you being terminated.

      1. Barg*

        HR and I did talk about the total lack of training eventually, and HR said it’s their fault for not providing that training. I do feel I needed to go to her much earlier, and with more specific complaints. I don’t feel like the first reprimand should have happened. The manager didn’t know anyone on the team, wasn’t around when we were working, and didn’t know what was going on, and immediately escalated into telling me my work ethic and intelligence is the problem. That wasn’t okay and I shouldn’t have tolerated it. I should have been in HR’s office as soon as slurs were used to refer to my work, not the second time. Same with the autism comment (which I got transferred to another team over, only to end up under the guy again). I haven’t been going to HR until I hit my breaking point.

        I did resign. HR wanted to remove me from overnight shifts and return me to electronics, because she feels like I has a good team member there, but I’m just too fried, and I’m going into grad school and don’t feel I can balance my feelings about the job and the high number of hours they need with an education.

    3. Koala dreams*

      It seems like this place wasn’t a good fit for you, they seem to be throwing people in the deep end of pool, to use a figure of speech, while you need a more structured job with training and clear instructions. That being said, the manager also seems pretty toxic so I’m not sure there is a good way to react. Yelling and using retarded as a pejorative word is unprofessional behaviour in the workplace. Don’t feel to bad about yourself for not knowing how to react.

      If you have problems with jobs in the future, you might want to work with an occupation therapist or a counselor on what accomodation you might need, how to communicate with your manager or how to best structure your job. Or maybe you’ll find you don’t have these problems in a job with better work culture fit.

      Lastly, I agree with SoCalHR that you need to be more specific when you bring up issues. Also, a lot of people have really strange ideas about autism, so you might need to start with basic info about autism before you go on to describe how your manager’s behaviour clashes with your autism.

      Good luck!

  61. Kramerica Industries*

    Does anyone have any tips on dealing with the “ghosts” of bad workplaces past? I’ve been at the same place for 3 years. During my first 2.5 years, I had a toxic manager and coworkers who set me up for failure (yelling, throwing me under the bus, etc). The manager has been gone for a few months with someone much better in place, but a few of the toxic coworkers remain.

    I find that the environment is a lot better now that a better manager has entered the picture, but I can’t help but to feel that same fear and discontentment walking into work everyday, even though the threat of the toxic manager no longer exists. Any suggestions?

    1. Elisabeth*

      I don’t want to be weird by bringing up my therapy sessions, but I have an amazing psychologist who talks a lot about institutional betrayal.

      Basically, even if it’s not hugely affecting your every day, non-work anxiety levels or happiness levels, you’ve been given a set of triggers. Not huge ones, but you’ve been providing input A and the response is output B. For 3 years, your brain has been trained that A, C, D, E … equals output B, which is aggressive and unpleasant and unproductive.

      That’s not wrong or weird. But I would try to just keep in mind that it will take your brain time to retrain. If you’ve spent 3 years skipping leg day, but suddenly try to squat while carrying 50 lbs, your muscles aren’t going to be able to do that. Your brain is a muscle that’s been skipping leg day. But if you allow yourself time to readjust and be open that this manager won’t be swayed by toxic coworkers, I think you’ll find that you stop expecting output B and start expecting a whole alphabet of potential outputs.

      2. Kramerica Industries*

        Thanks so much. Really needed to hear this – that last sentence is really speaking to me.

      4. Chaordic One*

        I’ve never heard that term (institutional betrayal) before, but it is so very on target. I googled the term and some very interesting articles came up, including some linking “institutional betrayal” with “gas lighting.” Thank for your thoughtful and helpful response, Elisabeth.

    2. SoCalHR*

      just hang in there! you probably would have some of those same feeling even if you switched jobs, so its not really something you can run from. I’ve definitely been in your shoes.

    3. GatsbytheGreatCatsby*

      I 100% get this! I still deal with paranoia from a CEO that has long been gone from my company. My best advice is honestly that it takes time and distance from the events giving you those “ghosts” and familiarity with the new team in place. Any time the bad memories come into my head, I think either to just keep it as a lesson learned (because even if the majority of the issues are on the other side, it’s still a lesson for how to DEAL with that) and that it isn’t happening now, there isn’t use of getting upset about it. Some days are better than others in thinking that way though ;) And I +1 therapy!

  62. PoweringThrough*

    thanks to all the people who gave me great advice back in June about feeling guilty for giving notice to my toxic boss. I haven’t received a job offer yet but they called me a few days ago to ask for references (after 2 excellent interviews) and have checked a few of them. I’m really hoping I hear back because I want to get out of here so bad! my friend who works there, who recommended I apply, has even told me that they’ve started to pencil my name in for upcoming projects, so I’m very hopeful…but I’ve been burned many times in this past year by thinking that a job was guaranteed, and then it craps out. so here’s to a happy weekend and to hearing back from this job ASAP!

  63. Inferiority Complex*

    So, I have part time, religious based employment. I only add in the religious part because I think it helps with the context–I don’t have a “manager”–the congregation that I serve are ultimately the people who decide if they are happy with my performance, if I should continue my employment there, etc, etc. I am in a leadership position that I share along with a person who I will refer to as my co-leader. She is older than me and has been with the congregation much longer than I have. My issue is that due to her age and experience, I sometimes have trouble seeing myself as truly “equal” with her. I tend to defer to her a lot, and as a result, nothing is getting done. For example, if I have an idea for a new program or something new that I want to try, she usually responds negatively with a “we tried this once 10 years ago”, or “I don’t think this will work”. I have a hard time pushing back, because I have this inner feeling that its not my place to suggest to an older, wiser, and more experienced leader that she might be wrong. But part of my job is to lead effectively and to keep things fresh and growing! So I need to push back–but I can’t shake this feeling that its not my place. Maybe this is an underlying issue that I need to talk to a therapist about? I’m not sure. But its affecting my performance. Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

    1. Rosemary7391*

      I’m not quite sure what the situation is in terms of management here… are you saying you’re a pastor/minister/priest type (or equivalent non christian terms), or are you employed for some specific project? Is there a guiding group for the congregation or project – we call it a church council, might also be called elders or something? Is there any leadership system beyond the sole congregation – like a christian denomination might have regional groups of churches etc. Just wondering where you might find people who understand the context to help you through this. It does sound a slightly odd situation even for religious groups – until the president, VP and secretary of conference everyone employed/stationed in my denomination has someone “up a level”. I’m on the management group for our project and we’ve appointed a line manager for our employee there.

      1. Inferiority Complex*

        We are co-pastors. I probably should have just said that outright, but I was trying to keep it in the work realm, and out of the religious realm. We do have an “upper” level of denominational support, but its very loose. Churches in my denomination are given a high degree of autonomy, and we don’t really have “main person” that we report to.

        1. Rosemary7391*

          I see. It’s probably worth seeing if you can talk to someone about how the co-pastor situation should work – I’ve only experienced the opposite situation, multiple churches to one pastor. There’s no management from the congregation? How do you get feedback/direction from them?

          But with regards to introducing new things – could you maybe split areas of responsibility with your co-pastor, like you take on youth ministry and she does community outreach (whatever is applicable to your context). Or try and be a bit more intentional in how you present things – here is the need, identified by and your proposal to address that need? It might be easier to get her to agree to a trial period with some sort of mechanism for determining progress? It’s more work for you, but also not wasted because that sort of thinking through will give the project a greater chance of success.

        2. Kuododi*

          Most copastors I have worked with have divided up the responsibility based on areas of strength. Hypothetically, if DH and I were to take over a copastorate, I would probably concentrate on areas of Pastoral Care, Spiritual Growth, Youth and Children’s service’s, music while DH would work on missions, outreach, community service, spiritual discipline, and he and I would share preaching duties. I’d suggest talking to whoever is the managing group in the church you serve to see if you can get additional support and guidance within your denominational structure.

    2. Anon-mama*

      I worked in a religious setting, and members of the congregation were leaders of the departments. One person, of the same faith, but not of the congregation was at the same level. I think it helped my colleague to just keep on doing the job as well as possible and holding firm to good, reasonable ideas. Are there small areas you can exercise some confidence, push back, or forge ahead with something that’s your responsibility. Do you have anyone overseeing the two of you, that if you did meet resistance from your co-leader you could loop in your boss? We all faced some reluctance and dismissiveness occasionally when we wanted to try something that hadn’t been done or these older members were unsure about, but when we presented them with a strong rationale for doing it our way and followed through with the results, they eased up in the future about our ideas. And their relaxing made us relax and feel that it was our place to do the best for the customers.

    3. Westcoast pastor*

      Pastor here,

      I would say this, remember that you have been called to your position. Unlike non-religious jobs there is a different aspect to our profession. If the congregation has called you, it is because they truly believe that you are bringing something important and valuable to the church. They are also confirming Gods call on your life at this time. Working with people who are significantly older than you can be daunting, however, your age and fresh perspective can bring a vital aspect to the congregation. Being older does not equal wiser in every situation, esp when we see the decline in church attendance. Doing things the same old way way is not really viable anymore. It is your place to push back because that is exactly what you were hired to do asa co-pastor. In fact, you could tell yourself that by not speaking up when you feel led you are in fact not fulfilling your call/ role instead of feeling like it not your place. Being a co pastor means you have just as much say in planning and guiding the congregation as she does. Unless she is your head of staff in a top down model your final “judge” is the congregation or personnel committee. Just think, they hired you to make changes, to try new things. By letting her stop you, you are not doing the job you were hired for. It is absolutely your place to push back!

    4. Gumby*

      Could you “push back” in a very respectful way by asking for more information?

      her: we tried this 10 years ago, it didn’t work.
      you: in what way did it not work? why didn’t it work out? is there anything we could do better with a second attempt? has the congregation changed in ways where it makes more sense now? etc. (not all at once, obviously)

      You might discover that she’s just not open to change. You might discover that there really is an underlying reasoning there that is still valid. You might ask a question which kicks off another idea in her and all of a sudden she’ll be just as excited about your idea or a similar-enough idea as you are.

    5. Kuododi*

      I don’t know where you are located but something I would strongly encourage, if you haven’t already done so is to look into a unit or two of Clinical Pastoral Education training. DH and I both went through that as a part of seminary, plus post graduate residency in CPE. The reason I suggest it is the program is designed to help ministers gain clinical experience in a variety of settings while learning to be self reflective about who they are as ministers, their pastoral identity and what each person brings to the table in service to the greater community of humanity. Blessings to you in your journey

    6. LGC*

      Hope you see this – I know this is really late!

      On your current primary issue: Honestly, I wouldn’t ask her to commit fully to stuff – I’d emphasize the trial aspect of things. A lot of longer-tenured employees (like someone who’s been serving the same congregation for what sounds like well over a decade) are adamant about staying the course. (Ask me how I know.) By framing stuff as a trial, that kind of makes it seem like less of a commitment to BIG SCARY CHANGE or DOING NEW THINGS, and it might increase the chance of buy-in. And…you know, just expect that she’s going to push back no matter what you do – it sounds like I’m saying to be pessimistic, but it sounds like she shoots down most of your ideas.

      But also…yes, definitely work through your confidence, because this reads like a classic case of impostor syndrome! A huge part of the tell is how you talk about your co-leader – that she’s “older and wiser” (for what it’s worth, she’s certainly one, but not necessarily the other). Talking with a therapist is a good idea (I don’t think you need to necessarily, but you did mention it), and my therapist helped me work through a lot of my confidence issues at my job.

  64. Elisabeth*

    I DID IT! Finally!

    I don’t know how much I’ve disclosed here, but I’ve been in public accounting and miserable for about five years now. It really got worse when I took a job at the Big 4 and went into audit instead of tax. I have severe anxiety and agoraphobia, and the constant change, and always being in a new location really made my lizard brain react poorly. I’m also a Type A with a severe fear of failure, so I would work myself into a frenzy and then crash and burn. I’ve been a job hopper, and I think a lot of it is due to simply being ill-suited to public accounting and the very nature of the business. I’m also not alone in this, I know, based on … 65% of my coworkers (and that’s estimating very generously on the low end). But it was to the point where I’ve been in weekly therapy and both my psychiatrist and my psychologist asked me if it wouldn’t be better for me to just do what I’m capable of and risk firing than to continue to be in the position I am.

    Well, I did my best to job hunt and not take the first thing that came across my desk. And while this was one of the earlier jobs I applied for, my first in person interview I felt REALLY good about it. It’s still accounting, but it’s a Senior Accountant position in an industry job. Same office every day, similar workload every day, one company to focus on every day, and supervisory but minimally supervisory work required. I know to some people that would sound like a demotion, but for me, it sounds like freedom.

    Obviously, there will be challenges. I’ve never worked at this level anywhere but public accounting where everything is constantly on a high pressure, immediate deadline with unrealistic budgets and billable requirements. The idea that I will finally be away from billable hours and realization reports is making me feel light-headed with relief. It’s not that I’m going in with rose-colored glasses, it’s that I’m trying to focus on all of the things at the new job that will be a welcome change from the previous job in terms of anxiety triggers.

    The 15% pay raise, employer 401k contribution that is unrelated to how much I do or do not contribute that is still better than my current employer contribution, decent vacation time, FANTASTIC location, AND getting into the industry sector I’ve been pretty desperate to get into do not hurt the deal at all. I really feel like this could be a very good thing for me, my family, my relationships and my overall mental health.

    So please, I ask you all, GOOD VIBES that this job ends up at the VERY least being endurable. I’ve had a solid 5 years of feeling like I’m suffocating (albeit, succeeding wildly during that time) in a field that does not suit my personality or my talent strengths. I think this one COULD do both of those. I would appreciate any good feelings sent out into the greater universe that this pans out.

    SORRY FOR THE ESSAY!

    2. Tmarie*

      I spent several years in a CPA firm, I was a bookkeeper back then, but still subject to a lot of the stress and time keeping that the CPA’s were. When I went to an industry accounting position it was so awesome having TIME to look at financials and analyze the whats and whys.

      Congratulations on your new chapter!

      1. Elisabeth*

        Thank you! I’ve really just been craving the time to actually, fully understand something I’m working on. I feel like with all of these competing, equally high priority, short turn around deadlines I never get a chance to sink my teeth into anything.

    4. Harriet and the Beans*

      Former public accountant here (6 years in Audit) who left for a senior accountant role in industry, I’ve been out for nearly three years now and it was the best decision I ever made. Almost all of my former colleagues have left practice and are so much happier for it.

      It’s different working in industry for sure but it’s nowhere near as stressful, and for me it’s feeling like we’re all pulling in the same direction (most of the time!) rather than trying to juggle multiple clients who all think they are the most important that’s made the biggest difference to me.

      Good luck!!

      1. Elisabeth*

        Your second paragraph is EXACTLY what I was hoping to hear. As I said above to someone else, I’ve just really wanted the chance to sink my teeth into something and really wrap my brain around it, but when you’re on tight budgets and realization expectations, it’s really hard to ever find that time. One of my current managers warned me I would be bored, and it was like my entire soul cried out, “Please, please let me bored at least a LITTLE BIT.”

        I would LOVE to finish something I started in the same day. Or to feel like I’m leaving the office with things wrapped up to where they should be. And I don’t think I’ve ever felt that way in public accounting, because that next client is always looming.

    5. M. Albertine*

      Not having to deal with billable hours any more was the BEST thing about leaving public accounting. I have every confidence you’ll love it!

  65. Anonforthis*

    Hey folks,

    Anyone who has gone through layoffs have any advice? My organization is losing a revenue source and they’re going to make layoffs, but don’t know who, when, or how many. I’m starting to look elsewhere, but wanted to know if anyone had been in a similar situation.

    1. Earthwalker*

      Grab your annual reviews, your internal contact information and email adresses, work samples, and anything else you’ll wish you had if you’re laid off. Move any personal info you may have saved on a work computer to a memory stick. Check your benefits and see if there’s anything you’ll wish you’d made use of before being walked out (like a dental cleaning if you have dental insurance or new glasses if you have visual.) With any luck, you’ll still be there when the dust settles, of course. But there are some easy steps to prepare for layoff that are worth doing if you aren’t sure whether you’ll be in a layoff group or not.

    2. Bend & Snap*

      My company got acquired by a company that does a big layoff once a month and smaller ones once a week. I lived under the layoff ax for 2 years.

      Get your resume ready, put up your recruiter antenna on LinkedIn, apply like mad to jobs that interest you, take every inbound call. Just get yourself in rhythm of job hunting.

      It took me 9 months after actively deciding to leave to land a new gig. I didn’t get laid off but the constant disruption and state of fear really messes with your head. Being proactive helps a lot.

    3. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      Are you in the US? Some of my suggestions are US-centric.

      You will be covered on your insurance through the end of the calendar month of your layoff. So go ahead and make as many medical appointments as you can/want to/need, especially if you’ve been putting something off. If you end up laid off, you’ll have all the time for the appointments midday! General physical, eye exam, dental cleaning/fillings, dermatologist, whatever.

      Start taking home your personal items or decorations, anything that is very important to you that you would really miss if you weren’t able to grab it before having to leave. Update your resume and LinkedIn NOW, open yourself up to recruiters now so you might have interest ahead of time. Send yourself copies of personal documents or work product samples you may need (depending on your field.) Pull all your personal info off the computer, go through and clear out personal emails from your work email and the trash can.
      Good luck, I hope you make it to the other side!

      1. A day in the zoo*

        Actually, it is not true in all companies that you will be covered by insurance until the end of the month. It varies by employer.

    4. GatsbytheGreatCatsby*

      My last gig had a major lay off 20% of it’s staff in November and we were told that was all they would need to cut. It came out of the blue so it was a really horrible day. I started looking immediately and found a new job in April. I put in my notice and the week I was leaving, they had another round of layoffs. Turns out, I would have been in that round. Kinda sucky I could have gotten severance AND a new job immediately (lol) but way better to beat them to the punch, ya know? Good luck!

    5. Crylo Ren*

      The other commenters have great advice. Update your LinkedIn (use keywords and look at the profiles of people who have similar roles or roles you want to move into) and anywhere else (portfolios or similar) that might get you noticed. If you have examples of your work that you want to keep, start transferring them to Google Drive or similar.

      Also, your mileage may vary, but I found it helped A LOT to kind of let the gossip go in one ear and out the other. Focus your energies on looking for a new role and tying up loose ends. When this happened to me I was very glad that I didn’t allow myself to be sucked in to the speculation because I would have been way more stressed out and less focused otherwise, and much of it ended up being untrue anyway.

  66. Jolly Roger*

    I found a dead bed bug in my office just now. And I’m being completely judgmental about my colleague next door whose office looks like a hoarders lair. And now i’m petrified about bringing these suckers home. DAMN!

    1. Lumen*

      I think you should absolutely bring this up. Not an all-staff email, but someone who can connect with building management needs to be alerted so that preventative steps can be taken against infestation.

    3. Jolly Roger*

      Not to worry, that has been done. They’re scheduling an exterminator now. But, this is the third sighting in the past year. I can’t help think this has something to do with the mess that sits next door. (Of course, the alternative is that I brought it in from home, but I haven’t seen any signs that I have them…. I have a beetle issue, but no bed bugs. If this were beetles, which I got from my previous job, I’d raise my hand and apologize. But I have never had bed bugs.)

      1. Pollygrammer*

        If you bring it up with management, you can probably point to some specifics about your colleague’s office that are particularly problematic–if she’s brought in anything upholstered from outside the office that is definitely worth noting.

        1. Jolly Roger*

          My colleagues office is visibly cluttered and noticeable from just walking down the hall and not just with paper/office work stuff. In fact, I’m surprised they weren’t told to clean up after the last bed bug sighting.

      2. Admin of Sys*

        Be careful if you carry a purse or backpack or laptop bag to and from the office. If they’re in the building, there’s a chance they’ll jump onto the bags and come home with you. If you’ve got the space, it might be worth it to leave the bags up on the desk / table rather than on the carpet.
        note: if you live somewhere warm, a car left in the sun may get warm enough inside to kill them off. (117-125F)

        1. Jolly Roger*

          Damn, I may have put my umbrella that was sitting on the floor at work in my bag, which was sitting up on my desk — thereby nullifying any peace of mind I may have had.

  67. Brownie*

    I cannot figure out how to deal with this and would love advice.

    I really don’t like information that can’t be tracked back to the source or doesn’t have a reason/explanation, so whenever I have a question where the answer is “because it’s always been that way” I take it upon myself for my own understanding to go look up the source and reasoning. If the source agrees with what I’ve been told then that’s great, I file the information and move on. If the information doesn’t match then I try to find out why so I can understand what is different locally from what vendors/sources assume. (Until I came along nothing was documented and it was all institutional knowledge inside peoples’ heads, so finding out what’s different is a very important thing.)

    Feedback from grandbosses and higher up is positive, they think I’m the greatest for not accepting “because” as an answer (some of my previous direct bosses loved that too). But my current direct bosses? I’m undermining their authority and showing I don’t trust them by even daring to ask questions! And heaven forbid I find that the source actually says to do something different, then I get utterly raked over the coals if I bring it up. If it was just happening at work that’d be one thing, but it happens in my volunteer work too, so I’m looking at the common factor, me, to see if it’s something I’m doing wrong. Anyone have ideas on where or how I can start figuring out why I’m getting this extreme reaction from my direct bosses?

    1. Elisabeth*

      Unfortunately, in my experience, it’s because they are having a fear response. We’ve seen countless e-mails from Allison where people have made everything from a minor to a major mistake and are asking if it’s fireable or how to handle it without being fired. It’s because they’re having a fear response and asking, “What is the worst case scenario?” When your direct bosses hear feedback from you or from THEIR direct bosses that you’ve gone around them and the answer they gave was incorrect and that it’s so good that someone doesn’t just accept a because answer, what they’re hearing is: their jobs are in danger/they’re not good enough/something bad will happen to them because of you.

      It’s not rational, but it can also be perceived as a direct threat to their livelihoods, homes, family safety, etc.

      I would take a break and ask myself, “Is this having a different answer or a reason going to HUGELY impact the results?” If it’s, “If I don’t do it the correct way, it’s legitimately a lawsuit waiting to happen,” then by all means continue to do it. But, especially at the volunteer position, if the reasoning or answer don’t really impact the end, but just give you satisfaction, maybe just let some things go. It will make you more efficient in the long-run and it will make your direct bosses feel less like you’re undermining them and threatening their jobs.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you are overstepping and your bosses have a right to be annoyed. If you are a lower level employee, you cannot expect to understand all of the high level reasons behind decisions that are made. There may be confidential information involved that they aren’t permitted to share and going behind your boss’s back to find answers is a fairly blatant display of distrust.

      1. lulu*

        Or they might think your time would be better spent doing something else rather than looking for the reason behind everything. Some times things are just the way they are for no good reason (why do we drive on the right or on the left side of the street), and it’s more convenient to go along than to always questions things. Discerning when it’s important to probe a little more, and when you can just go with the flow, is an important skill.

        1. Brownie*

          A major part of my job is to write the technical documentation as to why systems here are set up differently than vendor documentation says to do it. The higher-ups want that done as there’s been some critical production failures that couldn’t be fixed without major downtime because the people who built the system didn’t document anything and kept it all in their heads. Now there’s a huge worry about what happens over the next few years as more and more folks retire without writing anything down, so documenting is now part of my job.

          I really hate the idea of go with the flow for accepting “because” when it comes to technical documentation, but you’re right that maybe it’s the best option with this set of direct bosses and I need to back off and be more flexible. I’ll work on that.

    3. Meredith Brooks*

      The fact that this is happening both at work and outside of it, demonstrates that it’s not just a personality conflict with your current bosses. It seems to me that by constantly evaluating the source, you’re also demonstrating that you don’t trust the information you’re being told by others. And while on some level, improving your awareness or information around a subject is to be commended. Doing so at the expense of others or ignoring the information provided by others because you perceive their answer isn’t sufficient can be perceived as rude and dismissive.

      1. Lumen*

        I think this is well put. It’s easier for your grandbosses to be pleased that you don’t accept “because” as an answer when they aren’t the ones having their instructions or explanations questioned regularly.

        I’m sure some of it may be kneejerk reactions from your direct bosses, we don’t know their personalities, but if you’re getting this response elsewhere, then… yes. Some of it is definitely about what you are questioning, how you are questioning it, and how often you’re questioning (a big one).

        If I were your boss and I was starting to notice that I could never rely on you to just take things at face value and do what I ask the way I ask, I think I’d have a right to be irritated with someone who is reporting to me.

        Pick your battles. Only dig into these ‘but why’ questions when otherwise you cannot do your job. If you think the way things are being done isn’t the best course of action, that (to be blunt) doesn’t always matter as much as you may think it does.

        Sometimes in the workplace you have to accept that things are done a certain way. You don’t necessarily need to understand it or agree with it.

      2. Brownie*

        You may have hit something that I hadn’t picked up on between work and volunteer that’s also going on. At work part of my job is technical documentation which requires knowing the why behind the “because” and it’s been a part of all my jobs for the last 10 years. But in my volunteer job I’m acting like it’s work (probably out of habit), where I have a need to know, when really I don’t. It’s not my circus or monkeys there and I need to step back and accept what they tell me because I don’t have any right or need to know the why’s behind it. And that’s why when I ask volunteer bosses for the why they get angry, I am being rude and pushy because I’m demanding information that isn’t needed and has no effect on my job there.

    4. Jady*

      It depends a lot on your position and your job. The fact is, sometimes things don’t need a reason, or sometimes that reason isn’t important, sometimes the original information is inaccurate, but you might later find that information misses a lot of context or what-happened-in-between.

      In my job, you’d be a nightmare to work with, but the fact is in my job the reasons *aren’t* important. That’s been something I’ve had to explain to a lot of people I’ve trained. Yes, this thing doesn’t make sense, and the way it started is weird, and why we do it this way may be inefficient and dumb, but it doesn’t f-ing matter because the customer is the one who demands it this way, we’ve had these conversations before, we’ve fought this battle before, and it ain’t going to change. You’re just going to waste the next 3 weeks, prevent us from meeting this upcoming pressing deadline, and irritate a lot of people.

      But obviously that’s all going to be very different if say, you’re an auditor and you’re entire job is tracking and documenting whatever-it-is.

      So my advice is – just make sure it’s actually important and there are legitimate business reasons you need to know all these things, then when it is absolutely-required to discuss, minimize the amount of time you’re spending with people who have higher priorities. Don’t constantly interrupt them for individual questions, save it for a weekly meeting or something whenever possible. And whenever you find discrepancies between what you’ve been told and what you found, frame it as “help me get the right documentation/update these files/etc” instead of “hey what you said isn’t what I found”.

      It’s great that the higher ups like what you’re doing, but if your day-to-day boss is upset about it, that’s going to make your life really difficult. Try to minimize the impact.

      1. Brownie*

        It’s all technical documentation, baseline stuff where I’m comparing vendor documentation against what we’re actually doing, because up until a few years ago this was a team where everyone operated in their own little kingdoms without writing anything down for others. We’ve already had some spectacular incidents where someone’s been out on vacation and they didn’t leave documentation and suddenly a production system is down and no one knows how to fix it and the vendor documentation doesn’t work because the system was set up differently, so the higher-ups (and the direct boss who hired me, now gone) made part of my job the technical documentation required for these systems. I have a weekly meeting set up with my direct boss specifically for this so I save everything up until then.

        I automatically assume that there’s some very logical reason or situation I don’t know about as to why we’re not following vendor instructions when I go to my direct bosses for clarification. I still get yelled at for questioning the “because”, even if I try to present it as a “hey, I’m confused, we’re doing this but the vendor docs say to do this other, do you know why we’re doing it our way?” It didn’t happen with previous bosses, both at work and volunteer, but it’s new bosses in both positions over the last year and now I’m deliberately hiding any searches for information and not sharing any information, even with coworkers, because I’m scared of being yelled at.

        1. Jady*

          Since the tasks were specifically assigned to you by Grandboss, then I think it’s appropriate to go to Grandboss and explain the resistance you’re experiencing. Given there’s been turnover, that seems like even better reason, because maybe Boss isn’t quite clued into things.

          That’s assuming you’ve already had a conversation with Boss akin to “Hey, Grandboss specially assigned me these responsibilities to research and document these processes. Should we discuss with Grandboss if that’s interfering with other priorities?”

          If you’re literally being yelled at, that’s something to discuss with Grandboss as well, imo, for completely unrelated reasons. If that is happening, a hostile environment is probably not avoidable, and you’ve just got a crazy boss.

          1. Brownie*

            *headdesks* Oh no, that hadn’t even crossed my mind that no one told my direct boss about this, but that dovetails perfectly with some of the other stuff going on where he’s expressed shock and surprise at projects other coworkers are doing because he was never informed of said projects. And that would explain why he’s so upset about me questioning things, it looks to him like I’m rude and don’t trust him, because no one left any documentation on what I was working on for him and he just doesn’t know. (Sense a pattern about people not writing things down here? It’s so ingrained that it’s going to take years and years of work to break the pattern.) Arrrgh, okay, I need to talk to direct boss asap and find out if previous boss or any of the higher-ups actually told him about this part of my job.

      1. Brownie*

        At work it’s technical documentation, vendor-written usually, and comparing it to how the systems are actually set up here. There’s a lot of discrepancies, some of which have caused production outages because things aren’t written down. It’s part of my job to get the information out of peoples’ heads and onto paper so whoever is available can handle all the systems and keep them running.

        At volunteer job it’s what’s laid out by the international organization as their rules, regulations, and procedures, some of which, if violated, could result in the local chapter losing their ability to participate in international events. So I’ve been looking up and researching all those rules so I can make sure I’m not violating them and, in the process, found differences between how the regs say to do things and how local is doing them. This side of things I’m going to work on being more flexible about, accepting what I’m told to do by the local heads even if it goes against those rules, because I don’t know and don’t have the right to know what their reasoning for doing it differently is.

  68. Tara*

    So…I’m going to sound like a total asshole here, but how do you navigate not wanting to eat lunch with a new coworker who really wants to be friends with you?

    We had a new person, B, start at our office a few weeks ago. She’s not a *bad* person, but she’s deeply awkward and as such is given to annoying habits like interrupting conversations if she has something to say about the topic, or talking over other people (maybe accidentally?). I certainly don’t wish her ill, but we have very little in common and when she accompanies me to lunch, we often both sit in silence on our phones almost the whole time.

    Complicating this is the fact that I work with a close friend of mine, C, who has anxiety that is exacerbated by certain kinds of people and behaviors. C has confided in me that B exacerbates her anxiety, partially due to B’s tendency to interrupt her. C and I used to eat lunch together, sometimes with other coworkers. B ended up sitting with me at lunch on a couple of days when C was OOTO, and I did not know that B was an issue for C until B had already gotten the idea that we all eat lunch together now.

    C has taken to quietly slipping off to eat lunch alone and I’ve ended up eating with B, but B does not take hints well (we tried going off by ourselves a couple days ago but B followed us). I feel so shitty but I don’t want C to spend her lunches anxious because of B, and I want to go back to eating with my friend. Is there any way to handle this or do I just have to suck it up?

    1. Holly*

      Is this a big office or a small office? And where are you guys eating, a shared cafeteria? There’s no problem with just slipping away and meeting up with your other coworker outside.

    2. Partly Cloudy*

      Maybe you and C can go out to lunch (either together or separately, but on the same days) a few days in a row to give B a chance to latch onto someone else?

    3. Emily S.*

      That is SO tough. I imagine that Alison might say that you should just talk with B, and explain that you prefer eating lunch with just C, but that doesn’t seem like it would go over well. However, maybe you could throw her a bone here? For example, you and B could have lunch together one certain day a week, just to soften the blow, and then you eat lunch with C on the other days? That may be kinda far-fetched, I know.

      1. selina kyle*

        Oh I respectfully disagree, I think outright telling B as much could be very unintentionally hurtful. I’m not sure of a perfect solution but that seem like it could cause hurt feelings.

    4. I See Real People*

      Try disbanding with C for a few weeks and eating at a different time/place. Explain to B that you “have errands to run” on your lunch hour and will do this alone. After a few weeks, C will have probably found other lunch friends, and you and B can go back to lunching together.

      1. I See Real People*

        ** Sorry! Typing faster than thinking here…I meant that after a few weeks, B will have found other lunch friends, and then you and C can go back to lunching together**

    5. Thlayli*

      I really don’t understand why you can’t just say “hey Im going to have lunch with C today just the two of us, hope you don’t mind.” Just say it in advance a little so she has time to plan what she’s doing.

      If you don’t want to hurt her feelings then have lunch with her half the time and C half the time for a few weeks. Hopefully by then she’ll have made other work friends and you can phase her out altogether.

  69. Snark*

    Just a plea for commiseration: my new coworker is a pleasant and friendly older man who has….an, uh….unfortunate? Habit. Of……talking like this. In…a mumble. And, oh, sorry….forgot….? To mention. Something from…..ten minutes ago. Anyhow…….he….kind of also…..repeats? Himself. And it’s like…..the conversational…..equivalent of…..running. Through thigh-deep…..water.

    I am hearing impaired. I cannot.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Yay for starting your new job! I hope it’s going well aside from this.

      Have you mentioned that you’re hearing impaired and having trouble understanding him? Are these social conversations or work related ones? If they are work related, would it be possible to request that he primarily use email to communicate?

      1. Snark*

        It is going well now that I have computer and network access and so on! Nice to be back to work, honestly. And yeah, I feel like now that I have email access, that’s going to be mostly how I communicate. I’m taking over one of his programs, so some face to face is unavoidable, but blugh.

    2. NotaPirate*

      Sorry I don’t have good advice! I’m replying so I can find this comment later. I have a extremely soft spoken coworker. I think it may be a cultural thing too which adds a layer of awkward, she’s international.

    3. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Oooohhhh…I’m sorry. I have a coworker like this.

      Same thing. Nice guy. Very pleasant. But what would normally be a quick 30 second conversation turns into 10 minutes and me sounding like David Spade as a flight attendant.

    4. OyVey*

      If you’re working with my spouse, I’m sorry. J/k

      Spouse has a TBI and hearing loss (military service) and along with a highly annoying habit of starting a conversation in the middle of a thinking paragraph, will also stop talking before getting to the end of a sentence. And “dribbles” information . . . . . . one three word . . . . . . . phrase . . . . . . . . at a time.

      My greatest sympathies. I second the suggestion for email/text based conversation whenever possible.

      1. Snark*

        Huh. I actually wonder if he might have a TBI, because he starts in the middle of a thought a LOT.

      2. OyVey*

        It’s a trait that’s also common in people with ADHD and slow processing speed (related to executive functions and cross over ADHD and TBI) so usual sentiments about internet diagnosis apply

        My spouse has traits going back to childhood that suggest ADHD but because of adult TBI diagnosis, it’s impossible to say what’s ADHD and what’s TBI. Spouse does therapy for TBI and has gotten a lot better since their discharge but some days are much worse than others.

    5. Lissa*

      OH man, I’m a live captionist FOR the hearing impaired and people like this make my job so much more …. let’s just say…presenting exciting challenges at work every day! If he also cuts himself off mid-sentence and starts a new thought even moreso.

      1. Snark*

        Oh, he gets like three, four clauses deep. I’m not even sure what we’re on a tangent from, sometimes.

        1. Lissa*

          :( :( I know exactly what you mean too, I do meetings sometimes and I have to untangle that syntax in a somewhat plausible way, it’s not ideal. ahem.

    6. Meredith Brooks.*

      I went on a date with a guy like this once. It lasted 3 hours. I was ready to ask for the check after an hour, but I couldn’t figure out when he was finished talking. So, alas 3 hours. We did not go out again.

    7. nonegiven*

      I keep thinking of my husband. I ask a yes or no question and get 20 minutes of free association until I’ve lost the thread and have to ask again, “So, that’s a yes? or a no?”

      1. OyVey*

        I do a lot of “so how does this relate to the point you’re trying to make?” and “I’m unclear about this, can you please say it in two simple sentences that doesn’t assume prior knowledge ?”

    8. idk it worked for retail*

      If he’s not saying anything important for work I would honestly just practice a kind listening face and stop listening entirely. Maybe catch a word here or then so you know if it deserves a thoughtful nod or a polite laugh and then be like “well! great to see you! goodbye!”

  70. Jady*

    Twice THIS WEEK I’ve had phone interviews rescheduled last minute… while I’m literally sitting and waiting for the call.

    Dear interviewers…. phone interviews do require effort on my part! I can’t exactly be sitting at my office desk waiting and working away. I have to *leave my office building* and drive somewhere off the property in advanced, and sit in wait somewhere for this call. I’m not sitting in an AC’d office monitoring my email.

    This was infuriating.

    1. MissGirl*

      I had that happen and it is annoying. Three times for the same company but two different roles.

  71. FD*

    How can you get feedback on your work when your boss isn’t able to give you any?

    I work for a small startup (me and my boss) branching off a small business (less than a dozen people). In both the business I work for and our parent organization, I’m the only person doing the sort of work I do. I have a huge amount of latitude in how I do it, as long as I provide certain deliverables on time.

    I’m effectively self-taught and I know there are ways I could be more effective, both in some of the hard skills (project management, planning the operations), and in soft skills related to the job. The problem is that I know more about my area than anyone else in the org. In addition, no one else really sees that much of what I do day-to-day; they see the deliverables, but those are a pretty binary right-or-wrong, on-time-or-late so there’s very little scope for feedback.

    I’ve tried all of the techniques Alison has suggested (I also listened to her recent podcast with a similar question), and it hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Suggestions? I want to improve but I think I’ll have to look outside my organization to do it.

    1. Darren*

      This seems like the situation where you’d want to get a mentor to help your development. Find someone in your industry and network and see if you can setup such an arrangement.

      You might actually have to work to build your network first depending on how well developed it is (given you are self-taught in the area and nobody at your company does the same stuff I figure it’s probably not going to be).

      Look into meetup groups, professional associations, etc in your area for the field as a starting point.

    2. Product person*

      I agree with Darren, a mentor would be the best choice for you.

      From what you said here, “I have a huge amount of latitude in how I do it, as long as I provide certain deliverables on time.”, it looks like your boss, and other people at the company, are happy with the outputs and outcomes you deliver. The fact that you want to get better at hard and soft skills that could be useful in this and other jobs is not going to be incentive enough for them to spend time trying to learn your strengths and weaknesses and help you get better. With a willing mentor, you can discuss how you approached things like planning a new project, working with a difficult coworker, etc., to get advice and learn about different approaches you could try to continue to growth.

    3. FD*

      Thanks, both of you. You’re right, my network isn’t well developed; I fell into this rather accidentally. I’ve started to go through people with similar titles on LinkedIn who are in my area, and I’ll see if I can take a couple of them out to coffee.

      Product person, you’re exactly right. My boss is very happy with the outcomes and deliverables I’m providing now. But I know that good feedback is going to be crucial to improving and to future opportunities.

  72. James W*

    I met an intern of one of my colleagues at a networking event a few months ago and she asked me for a job in my department. I told her that we don’t hire people for the position that she was looking for (which was totally true). Now my boss has decided to hire someone in that position for exactly the project that she was interested in. However, the reason that the position exists now is because we have someone in mind for it but we’ve put up a job posting to see if there are any stronger candidates.

    My question is, should I send that job posting along? I think it’s pretty unlikely that she’ll get hired as I’ve interacted with her a few times and I’m not super impressed with her, but not going to say no right off the bat either. It seems unfair not to tell her about it, but I don’t want her to get her hopes up that I’m passing along the posting because I think she’ll be a great candidate and will try to hire her. Thoughts?

    1. Red Reader*

      I wouldn’t, especially if they already have someone in mind as it is. If you KNEW that she would be a super strong candidate that would be different, but absent that…

    2. Purple Soda*

      I’d say definitely don’t send the job posting along. It’s one thing to see it on a job hiring website, but if you were to send it along, her hopes would definitely be raised that her chances are quite high. (I wish I had somebody on the inside who could tell me which ads to note bother with, it would save me so much heartbreak! LOL)

      1. James W*

        I’d love to be surprised and get an excellent application from her, in which case I would consider her, but based on my (very limited) interaction with her I don’t know whether she’d give that. I guess I don’t want to stop her getting a chance based on my prejudgement but also I don’t want to get her hopes up.

        1. Thlayli*

          In that case I think send it but add a note telling her you have strict hiring guidelines and the job will go to the best candidate. Day specifically you are passing this job along because you know she is interested but not to get her hopes up and not to assume anything based on the fact that she’s met you. You could even warn her that her application needs to be extremely good as you think there will br strong competition.

    3. Snark*

      I….think I would err on the side of passing it along? Maybe with a forewarning that there’s a lot of really highly qualified applicants and not to get her hopes too far up?

      1. James W*

        That’s sort of where I am but I’m having trouble thinking about a good way to say the passing of the ad along is for informational purposes only and does not imply an endorsement of your application.

        1. Snark*

          “I can’t promise you’d be considered any more than any other application, and in the spirit of full disclosure we have a strong candidate in mind, but I wanted you to know a position is open in my deparment and encourage you to apply if you want to.”

    4. anonagain*

      I would definitely send it to her. I think you can just say that you are sending it for her information. I would probably write FYI in the subject line and just drop in the link. But I think as long as you don’t promise a job or a recommendation it’s not that big a deal what you write.

      I understand the impulse to not want to raise her hopes, but I don’t think you should worry about that too much. I’ve applied for jobs that were a long shot. I didn’t get most of them, but I got some of them. It was worth it to me to try.

      For myself, I always want people to let me know about opportunities and let me manage my disappointments myself. I try to do the same for my interns and students.

      She can’t possibly surprise you if she doesn’t even apply.

  73. Dolores*

    I received a resume fax to my department’s inbox. In my organization each department has a general inbox where we receive faxes or emails for questions. I work in healthcare.

    The fax was something along the lines of: My name is Jane Doe and I’m a “Career Services Advisor” (this is how she spelled adviser) at Medical Tradeschool inc. I’m assisting graduates with their job search and have attached a resume for one for consideration. The graduate possesses the following skills: *List of vague healthcare admin duties*.

    I then took a look at the resume and it starts with a proficiency session that lists: Honor Roll at Medical Trade School Inc. It then goes on to list qualifications which is again a vague list of healthcare admin duties (I’m assuming that were learned at the trade school). Then when I arrive to the experience section it states the most recent experience is package handler and before that retail which were both in 2016.

    This fax is ONLY for very specific purposes listed on our website one of which is not resumes. We have an entire career page with a formal electronic application process. I politely faxed back stating all applications must be submitted through our formal application process which could be found on our website at Teapot.com\careers. I find it very strange that this “career adviser” would fax a resume to a fax number that’s clearly not intended for that use in an attempt to circumvent the application process. I also feel that she is aware that the candidate most likely wouldn’t be considered because there is no experience in healthcare other than the trade school. I wonder does the graduate know that this career adviser is faxing her resume to random fax numbers found on healthcare websites.

      1. Dolores*

        Yes,
        I later realized this spelling might be location dependent and not actually incorrect. Where I am I am use to seeing Adviser The graduate is in my city but the Advisor/Adviser is across the country.

      1. Dolores*

        After googling,
        apparently there is some sort of raging debate about adviser vs. advisor. I will resist the urge to participate in said debate as I realize this could just depend on region. I retract my adviser statement for the purposes of not inciting said debate lol.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Your faxing back the polite response which detailed your application procedures was going above and beyond the call of duty. If you merely dumped it, unread, in the recycle bin, that would not have been inappropriate.

      OTOH, I don’t think it all that strange that a career advisor would attempt to fax your organization. Such behavior might actually get a student an interview (or even an actual job) every once in one hundred times. The career advisor is probably also under some pressure to find employment for Medical Tradeschool, Inc. graduates, so her faxing you at least makes it look like she’s doing something to justify her position and help her students find work. But yes, it is annoying.

  74. Wanderlust*

    Hi all! I’m in the US — one of my dreams is to live abroad for a year or two before setting down/buying a house and having kids. Has anyone else done this? Would love your experiences or tips! What countries have immigration policies make this somewhat feasible? Advice on job searching abroad? Thanks!

    1. Birch*

      Definitely get something set up before going. Especially if you only have a year or two. Don’t trust the immigration websites for application timelines–they don’t update them and everything is taking much longer in the current political climate. Depending on where you go, you might have to be sponsored by your employer, and that documentation also takes time. Do you have some contacts abroad in places or companies you’d be interested in? Networking would help a lot. You also need to have more savings than you’d think–moving abroad is really expensive. I can’t think of a country that I’d recommend as “easy” to immigrate to at the moment, but I can offer specific tips for the UK and Finland. :)

      1. Wanderlust*

        Thanks! I’m open to staying for several years — probably not a permanent move because I’ll want to be back as my parents start to get a bit older. This is a good advice about networking. Do I need to find a US company that has offices in the UK/Finland – or is it possible to get hired by a foreign company with no US offices?

        1. Birch*

          From what I’ve heard, the best option is to get sent abroad by a company you already work for. I stress finding a job ahead of time because it will take MUCH longer than you expect, and also because I know people who have moved abroad thinking they can just find a job there, and they have had difficulty with the language and culture and just end up spending all their time desperately job searching. Even in a place like Finland with great government resources, as a foreigner you would have a small stipend and be required to spend the equivalent of a full time job in language courses for six months or a year, and then some domestic companies would not hire you anyway. And the conservatives would hate you because you are foreign and taking up resources without contributing to the economy. It’s unfortunate, but that’s why it’s so difficult to move abroad. Of course, it also depends a lot on your field–if you are in a field that attracts progressive ideals, or something hot like tech, you can definitely get lucky! I would definitely look for companies that at least have international offices (US or not), because they will have dealt with foreign employees before, which comes in handy. Things like visa and residence permit delays, sponsorship, pensions, etc. can be surprising and problematic, so it’s helpful if HR knows what they’re doing! One last thing–do you have a way to frame this short stay to potential employers in a positive light? It might not be very attractive to interviewers if it comes across essentially as a gap year(s), so make sure you’re able to present what you bring to the table and why they should spend the extra effort it takes to hire you vs. someone local if you aren’t planning to stay permanently. Good luck and despite everything I said, I really do think moving abroad is something everyone should do! It will enrich your life in ways you can’t even imagine yet! :)

    2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Depending on where you’re interested in going, teaching English might be a good option. There are programs in South Korea and Japan (and possibly other countries too) that will hire lots of people with degrees every year, but they’re primarily geared toward new college grads, so depending on your circumstances that may not be what you’re looking for. I’d look at Dave’s ESL Cafe ( http://eslcafe.com/ ) and at the /r/TEFL subreddit if that sounds interesting to you, although be warned that the subreddit can get deeply cynical at times.

      If you’re interested in continuing your education and have the appropriate language qualifications, studying abroad could make sense, too (and might be cheaper than studying in the US). This wouldn’t make sense if there a lot of country-specific regulations for your job, though.

    3. Jiji the Cat*

      I’m going to the UK for a Masters degree in my field (I’m from the US). The UK student visa allows you to work part-time up to 20 hours while school is in session and for 40 hours a week during school breaks. The UK is also pretty generous with time left post-graduation and I have an extra 6 months to remain in the UK and work full-time after I finish my program. Depending on your field this may not be the best choice for you, but if you are thinking about graduate school, it is almost always cheaper and faster to do it abroad.

      1. Jiji the Cat*

        like, my whole year-long program will cost $18K. An equivalent program at a good US school could be well into $80K.

      2. Birch*

        Just curious–how long did your student visa take to process? I’ve recently arrived on a work visa and it took FOUR MONTHS. The process was maddening. I also did my master’s here but it was in 2011 and I had a lot more time to plan ahead.

        1. Jiji the Cat*

          It was about 2 weeks from getting my CAS statement to having the visa in my hands. But I have a previous Tier 4 from study abroad and I live only about 20 miles from the decision making center, so the process may have been unusually fast for me.

        2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

          Oh, man, I’m actually an American studying in the UK now and the student visa process was hands down the most stressful thing I’ve ever done in my life. Once I got fingerprinted and everything it was only about 3 weeks, but it took ages to get all the documentation I needed (the school wouldn’t send me some things I needed, for reasons that were super weird and may or may not have been legitimate), and when I was confused about something I’d get conflicting information from different places and would have no idea who was right (if any of them were).

          1. Birch*

            Welcome to bureaucracy! I think this is the typical experience. My study visa process was similar. Basically no office talks to any other office. I hope everything is going smoothly now though and you’ve developed a taste for warm beer and *insert more british stereotypes here* :p

          2. Jiji the Cat*

            Sounds similar to my experience for my first Tier 4 when I studied abroad. It was weird because I was kind of sponsored, kind of not (I did an exchange through my US college, paid them directly, then they paid the UK school) and figuring it all out was very stressful. My study abroad group actually made a Google Doc where we kept track of all the questions and how to answer them correctly. And it was on that old weird Visa4UK system instead of the uk.gov site that is much cleaner and easier to use.

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      I did it. I taught in Europe for a year. My school hired me before I left and they arranged all my visa stuff, housing, etc. I would strongly recommend getting a job with a company that can do this for you because it’s extremely overwhelming to do it all yourself.

    5. Emily S.*

      There’s a program called Remote Year that might interest you. Here’s the website.
      https://remoteyear.com/how-it-works

      Here’s a Q&A article with a young woman who was participating in the program (this is how I learned about it).
      https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/08/jobs/working-while-traveling-around-the-world.html

      I believe the program does require you to find a job you can work remotely, so that could be a drawback. I’ve seen other people recommend a website called FlexJobs to find remote and flexible work, so that would be something to check out if you wanted to go this route.

    7. AcademiaNut*

      I’ve done it. Well – I wanted to live in a very foreign country for a few years. That was 13 years ago, and I’m working on the paperwork for permanent residence….

      It depends wildly on what your job is. There are roughly four way to do this for a short term period. The first is to get a job locally and be posted abroad – I don’t know a lot about how to do this, but most of the people in this category I’ve met are in international business, engineering or diplomatic work. Joining the Peace Corp and similar things would also quality. The second is to get hired in the other country for a job that specifically recruits either foreigners or multi-nationally (teaching English is an obvious one, as is working as domestic help; I have a job at a research institute that recruits internationally). The third is to get a job in the other country that mostly hires locals, but is open to hiring foreigners. This is generally difficult – the company has to be willing and able to sponsor you for a visa, and may need to prove that they can’t hire a local to do the job, and if you only plan to be there a year or two it might not be worth the effort. (It also generally requires fluency in the local language). The fourth is to go as a student.

      If you’re thinking of teaching English, you’ll probably looking at places like Asia (ie, European countries are not so much in the market of hiring random Americans to teach English, unless they also happen to be experienced, trained teachers). And even in Asia, the better jobs go to people with teacher’s training and experience – the jobs for people with random BA’s and no experience tend to be of the cram school variety.

      Definitely don’t go without a job! You will be limited to the length of a tourist visa to find something and process the visa paperwork, and you’ll generally not be able to do things like sign a lease or open a bank account without a residency permit. If you run out of money or time, you’ll have to go back home.

  75. ScotKat*

    I found out this week that my manager hadn’t told me about a course I’m supposed to be going on with other people from work. It’s been known about for months and she never told me. My manager’s boss (she’s been my manager before and she’s good) asked me about it and I had no clue. They’d arranged it for when I am on holiday, because obviously I had no idea it was happening and booked something ages ago. Fortunately, my manager’s boss was able to change the dates so I could attend, but this involved messing other colleagues about, because they’d already made arrangements and sorted their own lives to attend on the previous day. My manager knew for months and was meant to tell me and did not. It’s something for my professional development! I’m still so angry about it, but she hasn’t even said anything to me or apologised, now that she must realise I do know. I get she might be embarrassed, but it’s her mistake, and it could have cost me this opportunity to learn (the course is about presentations, and that’s my worst nightmare, so having someone teach me how to be better at them is so valuable).

    Anyway… not much I can do, but I would appreciate if she acknowledged what had happened. Do I have any way to do this without being disrespectful or making her annoyed? I really mainly want to be sure she won’t do it again. For what it’s worth, she’s not a good manager in general anyway.

    1. Snark*

      I would encourage you to not try to get her to acknowledge it. She knows she messed up, she probably has too much of an ego to admit it, and if you ask her, she’s going to feel like an underling is rubbing her nose in it. And she will then be approaching you from a place of anger and embarrassment.

    2. Murphy*

      I agree that she should have acknowledged it, but I don’t think you should say anything. There really isn’t anything to be gained by having her acknowledge her mistake, other than your own self-satisfaction. (I am guilty of feeling like this a lot, but when I reframe it this way I find it helpful in calming me down.)

      1. ScotKat*

        Yeah, I won’t really do it. She’s just such a bad manager and it frustrates me when I know how much more she’s paid and she has no obvious interest in managing me at all.

    3. Product person*

      I have a different take on this. If it were me, I’d go to my manager and say,

      “Oh, I’m really sorry about what happened withe need to reschedule the course, messing up my colleagues arrangements to accommodate my planned vacation scheduled because I didn’t know the course was happened. Is there something we could do to make sure I’m informed of these appointments in the future, so that this doesn’t happen again?”

      (I’d start with an apology so it doesn’t sound accusatory, but would have the hidden message “you messed things up, I know it, and am better than you for trying to prevent it from happening again in the future for the good of the team ;-).

  76. ThisIsMyNewUserName*

    Resume question:
    I graduated from a liberal arts women’s college about 10 years ago (sheesh… now I feel old lol), with both an AA and an AS. I transferred to a larger university, and got close to graduating, but never actually did. I’ve had plenty of good work to put on my resume since then, but I wonder if I should include anything about “work towards a BA”, or just leave it off. Thoughts?

    1. Elisabeth*

      It really depends on your field and the level at which you’re applying. For my co-workers that are leaving public accounting after a couple of years, I tell them to either just make a note of their degree title in a section at the bottom regarding education, but not to bother with GPAs. Or if they’re a CPA, to leave it off entirely. It’s accepted that if you’re even staff level in public accounting, you have to have the degree. It’s only entry level when GPA affects your chances that it’s that important to include it.

      So if you have YEARS of experience, and are applying for jobs that require that experience, I don’t think it makes a lot of sense to include detailed information about your education background. It may matter in terms of promotion, but after a number of years of experience, I find people care a lot less about what you could do in school and a lot more about how you’ve performed outside of a school environment.

      Just my 2 cents!

    2. whistle*

      If you are not still working towards a BA, I would leave it off and just document your AA/AS. The only reason to include education in progress is to show that you will have a higher level degree than what you already have in the near future. If that’s not the case, I think it would be a distraction.

  77. Confidence Shot*

    I just found out that I did not get a job that I have been interviewing for for about a month and a half. I’m disappointed and it sucks. I was in the final 2 candidates, which should make me feel good about myself and proud (especially since this job was a bit of a jump up the ladder from what I do now) but it has actually kind of killed my confidence. I know this JUST happened and maybe in a week or so I’ll feel better, but right now I’m feeling pretty low.
    Meanwhile, my current company, which I really enjoy working for (I applied for the other because of the job title, not because I am/was unhappy where I am) has opened up applications for the same position that I just got rejected for at the other company. I knew the person here was leaving, and I had previously thought I would go for it, but now I’m not so sure.
    I know what you’re thinking- that was an outside company, and this is internal. I may have a better chance at this one since they already know and like me and I have institutional knowledge. But the difference is, the other company is a significantly smaller one than my own (though, same industry). So while the job title and much of the description is the same, the job is just… BIGGER. and the qualifications they are looking for are a bit above and beyond my own (I match some, but not others. and I don’t have a masters, which they “prefer”).
    I know if I apply for it, I should do so SOON, but the timing is just off because of where my confidence is right now, and the fear of going through this all over again with the same sad result.

    1. Tmarie*

      Just do it. Maybe feeling like your at your lowest will mean that as you work through the application paperwork you’ll discover that you truly are good enough for this promotion.

    2. Gatomon*

      I’ve applied to internal postings in the past just to get my name in front of that teams’ manager and signal that that was where I wanted to go. (Once I ended up getting the job too, which shocked the hell out of me, but it worked out great and I’m glad I didn’t wait!) If your company values internal hires/promoting from within, this would probably be wiser than if your company regularly passes over internal candidates for external ones.

      Sometimes those job descriptions are just wish lists. Like the wish list for my current position is 3 – 5 years experience and a BS… I was half done with the relevant BS and I had maybe 1.5 years of experience. Still got the job. If they really want the masters, I hope they are prepared to offer you some sort of incentive/education benefit to get it.

      I’ve also always pushed off that decision until the very last day (ugh) once I have my application materials squared. Usually I’ll have a quick chat with my boss to give them a heads up, and then turn things in to HR.

  78. AnitaJ*

    Job hunting during IVF update – I accepted the great job offer! I also had my transfer yesterday. So, everything is happening pretty fast. Thanks to all for your advice and support. One way or another, I have an exciting new opportunity coming up.

    Now….do I tell my boss on Monday? I start September 10, so that would be 3-ish weeks. Or should I give the normal 2 weeks? I literally have one project that would need to be handed off. No other projects. Advice welcome!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Good luck!

      Do you think your boss is the type who will ask you to leave immediately? And if so, can you afford to be out of work until you start the new job? If the potential for an early release won’t be financially damaging, I would say give the extra notice.

      1. AnitaJ*

        THANK you, Detective!

        I think my boss and company would be fine with me giving 3 weeks. I guess I am still scared that the new job won’t work out somehow…even though I’ve signed all the paperwork and have a meeting with my new boss soon. I’m probably just anxious (gee, wonder why….). HI ANXIETY

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Well, I would think that giving extra notice would mean you are more likely to leave in the good graces of your boss/company which means that if things don’t work out with new job, the door may be open for you to return.

          Change is always scary and you are attempting two big ones. It makes total sense that you’re anxious. Try to be gentle with yourself.

    2. Nita*

      Good luck!!! If you just have the one project, two weeks is probably fine. It depends on how your boss is though, and whether you want to give them the extra notice.

    3. Bend & Snap*

      As an IVF veteran, I recommend giving your notice now so you’re not stressing about it. You need every bit of stress off your shoulders while you’re getting those embryos to stick.

      Unsolicited IVF advice: I did the pineapple core regimen because why not, and IVF acupuncture, the cycle I got pregnant (after 7 years of trying). Worth a look if you haven’t already!

      Congratulations and good baby thoughts to you!

    6. Thlayli*

      Congratulations on the job, good luck with the baby (or babies?) I hope they implant and go to term.

      Give 3 weeks and if they tell you to leave sooner spend that time relaxing at home with your feet up and enjoy the holiday!

  79. Not Really a Waitress*

    I have been searching for a job in my field for too long. In my field sometimes they ask for work samples but are just as likely not to. I want to create an online portfolio and was wondering if the AAM hive could recommend a low cost or free website to do this through.

    1. Wanderlust*

      There are lower cost options, but Squarespace is really easy to use and has very professional templates and is relatively affordable.

  80. Sadie Doyle*

    I need some help with politely telling someone “No, you need to do that.”

    My job involves some tasks that are like project management, but I’m not a project manager – I get the ball rolling. Yesterday, Jenny asked me if X was ready. I said I didn’t know, but that she might want to check with Alice (who would be the one dealing with it and would probably know the status). She replied asking me to check with Alice. But if Jenny needs to know if X is ready, *she* needs to be the one following up with Alice. I just don’t know how to phrase it without sounding rude.

    2. ThatGirl*

      “Hi Jenny, I’d recommend following up with Alice directly, she’s the person to contact for this.”

      1. whistle*

        This is a good script. You add some emphasis/explanation by saying something like. “Alice is in the best position to answer this – I don’t want to pass on incorrect information.”

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        This script is great. The only other thing I’d do is include Alice’s email address or phone number if you have it easily accessible.

    3. Never*

      I may not be the best person to ask, but maybe “Alice would be the best person to ask for that.” “I don’t have the most up to date information, but Alice would.” “Alice should be able to give you that information.” Like, instead of focusing on the fact that it’s not your job, emphasize that it IS Alice’s job.

    4. Jady*

      Generally I lazily just respond and CC Alice with a line such as “Jenny & Alice, please discuss, thanks.”

      1. Rey*

        I like this one–shorter and more informal than the other scripts, but gets the point across and I’m a fan of cc’ing to kickstart their discussion. Although you do risk being stuck in their further discussion emails.

      2. Thlayli*

        Yeah if it’s by email this is what I do – forward to Alice and cc Jenny and say “please see below”. Alice will then respond directly to Jenny and hopefully next time Jenny will just ask her directly.

        Even if it’s not by email you can just type and email to Alice saying “Jenny wants to know x” and cc Jenny and then they’ll take it from there any hopefully next time they’ll leave you out of it entirely.

        Sometimes people are just shy and don’t want to talk to someone they don’t know, so this is kind of like an introduction.

      1. Tinkle*

        Oh, and feel free to leave it a few hours before sending a response. I’m not trying to be passive-aggressive, but I think it’s useful to show people (particularly if they repeatedly do this sort of thing) that trying to go through me is not only not going to work, but it’s going to cause delays in getting them what they want.

  81. Stay or go?*

    My job is really high-stress, high-responsibility, has long and unpredictable hours and I’m very underpaid. We’ve had several managers come and go over the last year so everything is very disorganized and I’ve had to take on a lot of extra work to keep things running. My current boss keeps changing how she does things or failing to do them at all and it’s driving me crazy. If I was better paid I wouldn’t mind it much, but this is a union job with a highly structured pay system and the only way for me to make more money would be to get promoted, and there are no positions open. The past few weeks I’ve felt on the verge of snapping and I don’t know if I can do this anymore.

    The problem is, this job is generally what I want to be doing, and in a field I want to stay in for the rest of my life. I kind of hate it currently, but there isn’t something else I’d rather be doing. I can’t move before next summer, and if I changed companies locally right now I’d end up taking a pay cut, which I can’t afford. My current boss keeps threatening to leave and if she does I’d be a frontrunner for her position, but who knows if that’s ever going to happen. If I leave this job for more money it’s going to mean leaving the industry, and it would be hard to get back in.

    I’ve hit this point a few times in my 3 years at this company, and things always settled down again. I know it will be easier come autumn, when the busy season is over. But I seriously considered quitting in the middle of a team meeting yesterday, complete with screaming fit and badge-throwing, and at some point I’m worried I won’t be able to restrain myself. I think it makes sense to stick it out through the rest of the summer and at least see how the management changes shake out, but I honestly don’t know if I can. Thoughts?

    1. Darren*

      So this is just my take but you can’t “take a lot of extra work to keep things running” indefinitely. If they need someone to do that work they need to be paying someone to do that work.

      If they won’t pay you more (i.e can’t) then literally you shouldn’t be doing that work. I wouldn’t just stop immediately but you need to flag this extra work and make it clear it’s not sustainable for you to continue doing this without additional compensation (overtime). After a reasonable amount of time you actually follow through and don’t keep covering the work that you can’t reasonably do. A little overtime is fine and expected but this sounds like you are consistently having to work more than you should and you need to push back on this.

      If this means things end up failing well sometimes that is the only way to get management to understand there is actually a staffing shortfall if you just silently step in and fill the gap then they have no way of knowing that there is any problem. This is especially try if you manager is actually continually changing her mind and adding to the overall workload if you silently absorb that work they aren’t going to be aware she isn’t doing a good job.

      This is the best thing for the company in the long term. You burn out doing excessive extra work, and you are going to leave and instead of having a 1 person hole like they expect, they are going to have a 1.5-2 person hole that is going to cause massive issues when they try and fill it. Not to mention if any of those tasks you are doing are higher level they are going to be completely blindsided when your manager doesn’t do them as the new hire definitely won’t be.

      You need to start communicating now (to your manager, or her manager if necessary), and nip this in the bud.

      1. Thlayli*

        Agreed. Stepping in to fill the gap for a short period is fine, but if it continues you will burn out, so in the long run it is best for everyone if you do whatever is necessary to make it clear to upper management that the situation is unsustainable. It sounds like your boss is a mess – can you talk to your grandboss? It doesn’t need to be “tattling” on your boss – tell grandboss about the unsustainable workload you have and make it clear you can’t continue indefinitely. Also mention the repeated changes and ask grandboss for permission to confirm rework with grandboss before doing it. Ie if your boss says use method A to do a task, you go ahead and do it. But if boss then changes her mind and says no do method b instead, then when method b involves rework contact grandboss first rather than wasting time redoing something.

  82. Matilda Jefferies*

    Random observation about people checking emails while on vacation. Yesterday I sent out a dozen or so emails to managers and directors, about a routine administrative process that needs their approval sometime in the next couple of months. Really, really not urgent, and the content of the message makes that clear. It being August, I got a handful of OOO replies, which I expected, and which don’t impact my work at all.

    Then I also got two responses from people whose OOO said they were on vacation, checking in to respond to this routine, non-urgent request! Both within a couple of minutes of my sending the original email, which likely means they have their phones and notifications on while they’re away. I mean, I can imagine a scenario where people would check their emails once a day or so while they’re out, and respond to anything that couldn’t wait or be delegated. But of all the things that *can* wait, this should be by far the easiest one to triage out!

    No real question here, it just makes me wonder how they’re managing their down time, if this is the kind of thing that gets prioritized.

    1. Jiji the Cat*

      Could depend on their previous experience in other offices. I worked in a high-pressure office for a Very Intense boss, and you were expected to respond to emails on vacation. There was LOTS of drama if you didn’t, even for minor emails like the one you’re describing. Those habits can be hard to break!

      1. Delta Delta*

        Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Worked for a toxic wasteland of an organization that backhandedly said, “no, of course everyone needs vacation!” and then would demand that everyone respond to every email and phone call all the way through vacation. People were penalized for not responding while away. Someone got put on a PIP for not checking emails during a funeral. It creates horrible habits and ruins vacations. It’s the pits!

    2. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

      I’m a mid-level worker bee (so, not important enough that anyone would expect me to be constantly on call whilst vacationing, but high enough that there are things that only I can attend to), and it’s not unusual for me to check email a few times during the day and respond to things that are easy to check off so that they don’t pile up in my inbox for when I get back. Even if something could wait, it is often easier to just know that it’s done. So it may be less of a situation in which they are not managing their downtime and more of as situation in which it saves the thing from being another task to deal with upon return.

    3. Lizardbreath*

      Why did you email them while on vacation? You obviously knew they’d be out (and I bet you saw the messages in outloook before you hit send). So don’t complain about them when you are the one who created the situation.

      I assume, as senior leadership, that if someone emails me knowing I’m OOO, they must really need it.

      1. Someone Else*

        …or they’re included because they do need to know The Thing and waiting and emailing them about The Thing separately when they’re back in the office seems to add a superfluous extra step? If I email you when you’re OOO I assume you will see it and deal with when you’re back. If I needed something from someone who I know is out because it’s urgent I’d phone or text them, as my default assumption is people do not regularly check work email while on vacation. Including Leadership. But perhaps that’s just the culture in my company.

      2. Thlayli*

        Assuming that people will only email you when it’s necesaary is… not the usual way it’s done. Typically people will send the email and expect you to see it when you return. Otherwise they would have to store the email, make a list of everyone it still needs to be sent to who is out of office, note the dates they are back, set reminders accordingly, and then send it to each of them individually when they return. That’s a LOT of work that can easily be avoided by people just not checking their email when they’re away.

        Typically it’s expected that you don’t check email on holiday, and if they need you urgently they’ll ring you.

    4. Bea*

      When managing, I always have my email on my phone and respond to anything that I can do so without needing records or what have you that means I’d need to be in the office for access to, etc.

      Sure you can judge but many of us work on vacations and it doesn’t bother us.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah sometimes people have a little downtime on vacation or are bored and just want to check email to see if anything big is going on. If something Takes less than 2 minutes to do, they would probably just respond then rather than have to do it when they get back.

        Responding within 2 minutes is unusual though and does indicate they have notifications on and so are checking and responding to work email probably a lot on holiday. Which to me indicates a workaholic or a really stressed out person overwhelmed with work.

  83. kitryan*

    My office has a long weekend ‘getaway’ that all attorneys and some staff can attend. This is my first eligible year-I’m staff- and the getaway is in a particularly desirable destination. The flight, hotel, and virtually all other expenses are covered by the company. I would like to extend my stay for 3 days (PTO). The company would cover the flight as I’d be going there and back either way and I would pay for the room for the extra days but at the lower group rate.
    This has been approved but in approving, my supervisor explained the following: Attorneys are discouraged from extending the getaway on either side, as it reduces billable hours even further, costing the company money. So there’s a high level bad feeling about it. This came up on prior getaways and was just reiterated about this year’s. So, it’s not been prohibited even for attorneys but it’s not a good look.
    However I’m not an attorney and my time isn’t billable due to my job duties. I’m on a team of two and my coworker isn’t eligible to attend the getaway yet and isn’t taking any time off that week. So those reasons don’t apply to me, (which my supervisor totally understands) but that doesn’t mean that if the higher ups notice that there won’t be spillover negative feelings. I also have an excellent reputation currently.
    Is it worth risking a ding to my reputation by taking advantage of the cheaper vacation? Was the long explanation by my supervisor a way of discouraging this or just a heads up on things? I wouldn’t be able to afford the trip this year otherwise and I really could use some time away instead of another staycation-which I don’t usually find very relaxing.

    1. Rey*

      If your supervisor approved it and with the additional information that your reputation is currently good, I think you’re good for this year. I wonder if they are really concerned about consistent abuse, so maybe just feel out the company culture and set your own expectations (only do it every other year, or once every three years.) And just be aware that you shouldn’t talk up your PTO, as the office doesn’t want to encourage this behavior and the attorneys might not identify the differences that make it okay with your work schedule. Don’t stress about it too much or overthink–it sounds like you are due for some TLC away from the office.

      1. kitryan*

        Yes, he did approve it – he just gave me all that context first. I do have an excellent rep around the office as very thorough and conscientious. I think the core concern is that if unchecked, lots of attorneys would choose to extend the trip, so if I do take it, since my circumstances are different, I would definitely not bring it up to anyone that didn’t need to know.
        Thanks for the outside read on things! Not making it a regular habit is probably also a good call.

  84. Deryn*

    TL;DR Has anyone had experience with either navigating clinic flow issues specifically, or more broadly, addressing issues when you’re standing on the lowest rung?

    Background: I’m a researcher that recruits study participants from a medical clinic, and our area of research is definitely seen as lowest priority in our clinic (I disagree strongly with this sentiment, but that’s for a different time). This has been MUCH better with the advent of a new clinic manager who used to work in research, and I’ve made a concerted effort to forge positive relationships with the providers and staff.

    One particular issue we’ve been running into is navigating clinic flow – the online system does not always get reliably updated with where the patient is. We have had a few incidents where families were done with their appointments and because we had no way of knowing that, the family left without finishing the study or waited a long time for us to realize they were done and come meet them. Our team does not have a designated area in the actual clinic, so if we cannot monitor where the patient is online, our other option is to literally wait in the hall outside the exam room when we think they might be close to being done.

    I would love to open up a discussion with our clinic manager and/or staff about what options we have (I have several ideas), but I really think it would come off as “the lowly research team telling doctors how to do their job” and “creating extra work for everyone else.” I’ve brought this issue up with my PI and she has similar reservations – she obviously has much more standing than I do but is still in the same boat as far as respect for our area of study. I’d love to hear your thoughts!

    1. Sparrow*

      Oh, this used to be part of my job! I spent a lot of time lurking in waiting rooms and common areas trying to “catch” participants and constantly refreshing our online portal to figure out a patient’s status.
      I think you take a 2-pronged approach:
      1) Get big-picture buy-in from the providers. Have your PI get a meeting with all the Drs. in the clinic (staff meeting?) Have her go over the gist of what you are doing, why it is important, introduce you so you are more of a familiar face.
      2) For the minutiae of procedure/protocol/workflow, receptionists, nurses, MAs and other staff are your friends. Get to know them, and see how you can help each other out. They will usually be much more useful than the actual doctors in finding out a system of communication that works for everyone, because they manage the flow and have more contact with the patient. Try to think proactively and be appreciative and you may even be able to bond a little bit over the challenges of “managing up” and keeping things moving smoothly in a busy clinic.
      Finally, show appreciation (we brought donuts to staff meetings and gave everyone a nice travel mug with our study’s logo on it as a thank you after the project was finished). Be considerate of other people, proactively address issues with a willingness to problem-solve (don’t let resentment or frustration build up if you detect it) and overall demonstrate that you’re keeping the patients’ best interests in mind.
      Good luck! Clinical research is so challenging but so rewarding!

      1. Deryn*

        Ahhh so nice to talk to someone outside my immediate team who can relate!

        Your first point is where we are struggling the most, I think. In the past, my impression is that our team has been operating pretty inconspicuously. I think the intent was to not be a hindrance, but the unintended consequence is that we’re often forgotten or left out. I’d really like to see us move to a more collaborative working relationship. I would LOVE to do a staff meeting or something of the sort! For us, I’m not sure it’s feasible to hold a separate meeting, but I’ve thought about seeing what our PI thinks about me popping in to do a quick elevator pitch at one of the regularly scheduled faculty meetings or even just a division-wide email. She’s generally pretty hesitant to ask for things (or time, in this case) in our division because of the aforementioned Hierarchy of Specialties, but I’m hoping I can present it in a way that makes it seem like a totally reasonable and non-intrusive thing to ask for (which I believe is true).

        And I completely agree with the second point! We had an intake nurse that I was devastated to lose to another department – she was amazing with helping us out. There’s another nurse that I have a pretty good working relationship with, and one who is new and struggling a bit that I haven’t been able to connect with as much. I’ve also got a good relationship with some of the front desk staff and have been able to troubleshoot a few things with them. I’m still looking at ways that we can work together more to make things more streamlined for everyone with minimal extra burden.

        I’ve been making a concerted effort to show up and pitch in at times when our team in not really required or “expected” to do so (taking shifts at our “family day” events, fundraising walks, birthday lunches, etc.) to really establish our team as “part of the clinic family” rather than “people who show up when they need something.” I’m finally starting to build up some social capital with our faculty and staff, and I’m hoping that will help us out in the long run. The idea of doing a sort of appreciation or celebration treat/gift has got my wheels turning, thank you for that suggestion! I love that that both shows gratitude and would also be a bit of publicity for us!

        1. Sparrow*

          100% yes to the idea in your first paragraph, that is absolutely a reasonable thing to ask for. We were often guest presenters at different staff or department meetings, where we had 10 minutes to give our spiel and answer questions, and those were really useful. We also sent out emails about the study every month to the residents on a particular service as they would be interacting with our study patients (and it was a new group of residents each month). The email carried more weight if it came from my PI, but to make it easier on her I had it all set up in a template and filled in the right email addresses so all she had to do was copy/paste and hit send. Give your PI a nudge and hopefully it works out positively!
          And I love your last paragraph too! Going that extra mile really pays off, and getting to participate in fundraising walks for our specialty area was one of the most cherished memories from that job.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Can you put a flag in the chart that reminds the nurse or medical assistant to page you when the patient visit is done?

      PS. As a nurse on a hospital unit, I am really tired of being rewarded with donuts. I have gluten intolerance and can’t eat them. Not telling you to not do this, just adding information.

      1. Deryn*

        I would absolutely love to do that, but I think it’s going to be a hard sell at the moment given that we’re having trouble getting everyone on the same page with updating what room the patient is even in at the moment. I’m hoping if we can move towards getting that under control, then we can get a little *fancier* with our system.

        And that’s interesting to hear! I was actually trying to think of a non-food “treat” that would be appropriate and within our budget.

  85. Incantanto*

    Have been told to write job descriotion as we don’t have official ones and they need them for audit reasons.

    Judging by how snarky my first draft was I think I need a new job.

    “Only person who remembers where the chemicals are” and “best lab sorting nagger” probably won’t help.

    1. Snark*

      Yeah, one time I wrote a fake resume that included things like “performed clients jobs for them so well they realized 147% improvement and got a promotion” and “discharged office scut work” and so on. It was therapeutic, but not to be repeated.

    2. Anonymosity*

      LOL this reminds me of the time we had a company questionnaire at one job and I wrote really effusive positive things for it. Then I made another, private one with stuff like, “Goals: to escape this N*zi hellhole as fast as humanly possible.”

  86. Bereaved and Confused, Redux*

    Hi, AAM Community – I posted a few months about about the fact that when my boyfriend passed away suddenly, my boss refused to give me any bereavement leave (or leave generally). I basically just muddled through until I started to function again; unfortunately, in the last couple months, several other close friends and family members have also died. Each time, again, my boss has refused to give me any time off, citing that “grieving” isn’t a good reason to miss work. (As I stated before, we don’t have HR, and any PTO is given at the sole discretion of my boss without there being a set allocation.) I did see a therapist/grief counselor to see if I could possibly get a doctor’s note, but she stated that although she was sympathetic, there was nothing in my profile to indicate that I had depression or any other sort of condition that would warrant being excused from work. Anyway – I had a week’s vacation scheduled for the end of the summer that had been approved earlier in the year, and figured I could just use that to recharge, but now my boss has said that because my performance wasn’t at its best while I was dealing with all the deaths, I am not allowed to take any time off for the foreseeable future. He’s not wrong about my performance – however, I think the consequence is quite unfair, given that when I felt up to it I worked extra hours, including weekends and holidays, to get caught up on things, and am now not only caught up but ahead of my deadlines. How can I get my head in the right place, when I am not allowed time off to grieve and am now told I can’t take any time off at all for many more months? (I have only taken off two business days this year – one personal day for a family commitment before my boyfriend died, and one sick day where I was running a very high fever to the point I was nearly hallucinating.) I really do want to make this job work, so this is a “how can I get my attitude on track, and keep my performance up” question rather than a “should I leave” question. Thank you all…

    1. Nita*

      Wow. I’m very sorry for your losses. I think this actually is a “should I leave” question. Your boss is not much of a human being.

      1. Elisabeth*

        I was going to say this. It’s not “how do I get vacation?” It’s “can I find somewhere that treats me like a human being?”

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Oh my gosh. I’m so sorry for everything you’ve gone through lately.

      1. Your boss is a terrible human being, and also a terrible boss. Are you sure you want to keep working for him?
      2. Your therapist is slightly less terrible, but still terrible. She should not be denying your words or your experiences, or your need to grieve your losses.

      And in case it’s not clear from 1 and 2 above:

      3. Your attitude is *not* the problem, the people around you are the problem. Of *course* your performance is slipping – that’s a perfectly normal response to everything else that has happened in your life lately. And two of the people who should be supporting you the most – your boss and your therapist – have completely dropped the ball in that regard.

      Sending you love and warm thoughts, and wishes for not-terrible people to help you out with everything you need.

    3. Partly Cloudy*

      What the actual…? Your boss sucks and so does your therapist. I’m so sorry for all of your losses.

    4. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      This is not a sustainable situation. Please be kind to yourself and get the heck outta there. Your boss is setting you up for failure by denying you a break and then punishing you for performance issues that would be mitigated by you taking a break. No job is worth this heartache. I’m so sorry for your losses, and there is absolutely no reason for you to suffer like this.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      I am so sorry for your losses.

      You cannot make this work. Your employer has made it clear that they don’t care about you at all. You should be job-hunting.

    6. Friday*

      I’m so sorry for all of your losses. I think if I were you, I’d be at least casually looking around too. You work for a monster.

    7. Rey*

      GET OUT! Your boss is on a power trip and at this point it is negatively affecting your mental health. His treatment of you is more indicative of his lack of compassion as your boss and a fellow human-being, and is not a reflection of your effectiveness as an employee. Assess your situation and decide if you need another job lined up before you can leave or if you can get the heck out now. Pick your daily mantra (I suggest, “He is crazy. I am smart and kind and important.”) and just repeat it multiple times a day until you leave that job.

    8. Roja*

      Oh my gosh. I’m so, so sorry for all your losses. I’m assuming there must be some extremely compelling reason to make this job work for you, because this is horrible stuff to have to deal with (“grieving isn’t a reason to miss work”?! what?!?).

      That said, if you absolutely have to stay, can you try getting away for a weekend or two, preferably in a row, or even staying in a nearby hotel for a few weeknights just to get yourself out of the house? Half the point of a vacation is to get away from all the little details we usually deal with when we’re home, so if you can shut those out and take some evenings and weekends truly off (by which I mean no housework, no taking work home, no cooking, no appointment setting, a total brain break), that might help. Alternately, if you have any friends/family, I’d definitely recommend asking them for support in whatever way you feel is most useful to you. This would also be a great time to treat yourself to concert tickets/massages/that book you’ve been wanting/new clothes/whatever would give you a happy boost.

      I hope things get better for you asap, both in the personal AND job departments.

      1. Partly Cloudy*

        (“grieving isn’t a reason to miss work”?! what?!?)

        Can you imagine this boss with the intern who wanted to take two weeks off to mourn his dog? Bereaved & Confused’s boss’s head would explode.

    9. Emily S.*

      I am so sorry about your losses.

      As others have said already, I believe this is not the right organization to be in. You should not ever be treated this way by your employer. So it may be time to start looking for something better (at a company with an actual HR dept., for pete’s sake!).

    10. Bereaved and Confused, Redux*

      Thank you all, so much, for your very kind condolences and supportive thoughts.

      Here are a few more details, in case any of these may change any advice:

      I work in a male-dominated industry where people are generally expected to be tough as nails, and where women, in particular, are cautioned against seeming fragile or “too emotional,” including during periods of extreme (personal or professional) difficulty. I worked my way up to a very senior position, after starting some years ago in a secretarial position (moving up from the admin ranks in this industry is quite rare). I just started my current job last year, and it was a huge step up from my prior position. If I leave, especially after less than a year, it’s (a) pretty unlikely I won’t have to take something of a step back; and (b) definitely a coin toss as to whether any other bosses/organizations would be any kinder. Plus, it’s really going to take me a while to recover fully from all these losses; it’s hard to think about finding the energy to interview well and give my all at a new job with people who don’t know me yet.

      I chose this industry because I LOVE the work and I’m (usually) great at my job. I am usually considered an A+++ performer who has been described by my boss and colleagues as “superhuman.” During the worst of my grief I’d say my performance slipped to the “B” level – still doing good work, but less efficiently and with a few more small mistakes. I would say I’m now back to “A” level – very high-quality work with hardly any mistakes, but hardly superhuman.

      Getting away even for a mini-staycation would be tough right now (although it’s a wonderful idea!) – I’m a single parent and as I mentioned we’ve had several deaths in the family. The people I would rely on to watch my kids during a getaway are also deeply affected by the losses, so I don’t feel like I can ask for that right now (at least not for another few months until everyone is further along in their grief processing). My kids have some special needs that are very manageable when receiving care from a trusted family member, but that make finding outside sitters difficult and extremely expensive.

      Anyway, not sure what I’ll do, but I do appreciate everyone being so kind here. It means a lot.

      1. Partly Cloudy*

        “and (b) definitely a coin toss as to whether any other bosses/organizations would be any kinder.”

        It’s more of a roll of the dice: snake eyes = your next employer being as cruel as this one. It’s not normal to be treated like this.

      2. WellRed*

        Your situation enrages me. I understand you feel stuck for now, but please no, this is NOT NORMAL. Is your boss a robot? Grief is the most valid reason to take time off. Just adding to the chorus.

      3. Kiwi*

        I’m so sorry for your losses and your boss is miserable. Being at A level sounds like being a superstar right now.

        I see why you don’t want to leave that job. What’s the minimum time you’d want to stay? I find that putting a time limit on things makes it easier to deal with them.

        In the meanwhile, I like the idea of a mantra. “I’m a superstar.”

        Also, I wouldn’t totally dismiss asking your family to watch your kids for a weekend. Assuming they haven’t got bosses from hell too, they may find kids a nice distraction. Or at least have more resources for coping overall than you do right now.

      4. Kuododi*

        I am afraid I can’t comment on your work situation except to say your boss is a b*****d. As far as the therapist is concerned, I would encourage you to look into talking to this person’s credentialling agency bc depending upon all the ins and outs…this may be something you might want to consider filing a grievance. Best wishes for the future.

      5. Denise*

        Your boss’s behavior is like telling a truck that as soon as the engine stops overheating he’ll put some oil in it and if you decide to push back that may be a nice, cold, hard, logical way to argue it. Call up one Friday and make puking noises like Ferris Bueller’s keyboard and spend a 3-day weekend with your kids making cookies and drawing pictures to pour some oil in your engine. Give yourself permission to be a little broken for a while and take your time healing. By the time you’re back to yourself again, it’ll be time to leave this pooty-headed boss.

        Also, “bereavement due to life event” is an ICD-10 diagnosis code and your therapist is not thinking clearly. You don’t have to put a diagnosis in FMLA paperwork anyway and your primary care doctor could also have done this for you. If your grief backslides, see your doctor.

    11. msroboto*

      Time for a new job for sure.
      I am not sure at this point I would be asking for that approved week off – even though he is revoking the approval. If I could I would just TELL him I’m taking that planned week off.

    12. Thlayli*

      Sorry I know you’re looking for how to keep your performance up. But I think you need to leave this job. It sounds horrific.

    13. ..Kat..*

      People do better at their jobs when they take regular vacations (Google it). Not allowing you any vacation is denying you part of your compensation.

  87. ThatGirl*

    Boy I thought last week was bananapants.

    This week? On Monday my manager (team lead) abruptly left*, on the same day that we finally had a new person starting — who I am now almost solely responsible for training. It was chaos. And my sick coworker was still sick.

    Things have improved, thank god – the new person is settling in well and my sick coworker is back – but it’s a rocky road. I have been the glue holding things together and it’s been a weird and overwhelming place to be.

    *I’m not clear on whether she quit out of the blue or if she was let go; all I know is she got to say goodbye to everyone and pack her own things up, and they will be re-hiring for that position. I will miss her, I thought she was very good at her job in a high-stress, thankless position.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Hooo boy then I had a meeting with my acting manager and turns out I talked a little too loudly a few times this week, and I was so embarrassed and flustered I started tearing up. I’ve never been gladder to be able to leave work early (preplanned—dr appt).

  88. Dino*

    Can I just get some good employment vibes? I’m a recent grad and not having a job has been one of the most stressful things in my life. I can afford rent in September if I’m really careful but after that, I’ll be up a creek. I’m applying to places, getting interviews and doing what I can, but things are precarious. I’d appreciate any good thoughts you can throw my way.

    1. Lumen*

      WHUM WHUM WHUM *sends vibes*

      You can do this. Brainstorm some action plans for worst-case ‘what if’ scenarios (ride share driving, deliveries, busking, unemployment, whatever). Be your best self in interviews in the meantime. Breathe. Many, many of us have been in your position and worse and we are still okay.

    3. Emily S.*

      Good luck!

      That is such a hard thing. I graduated from college in 2008, and it was beyond awful. Almost no jobs in my field, crazy competition for the scraps that were out there. I ended up working at Starbucks for a while (they have excellent benefits!), then doing some other low-paying jobs until I finally settled into something better.

    4. Gatomon*

      Sending you good vibes! I graduated with my first degree back in 2011 and thought I was going to continue on at my university department, and then that fell through horrifically over the summer. I had nothing else in the works and no family support since my parents were unemployed too. I managed to get a retail job in October with the holiday ramp up, and between that and food stamps I survived until the spring when I landed my first full-time work in April 2012. I moved into a sublet with a drunkard after my roommate left town, and my sublet was coming to an end. I was planning on selling my car and moving back home when that job finally came through and allowed me to get my own place and get stable. It was a really rough and stressful year, and I don’t wish it on anyone.

      Food stamps (or SNAP as they’re now called) are a great way to at least ensure you are eating well. And money not spent on food is more money for rent. You might be able to find some temp work that would help, and know that retail does start to hire just about anyone with a pulse and decent availability come September/October.

    6. Thlayli*

      Good luck. I graduated right in the middle of a bad time for my field and it took me 6 months to get a “career” job. I worked in a shop for that time and it was great fun and paid the bills just about. If you are getting close to the wire financially i would recommend focussing on getting a temporary job ASAP and postpone the career job search until you have some cash coming in – it’s a lot harder to find a job when you’re homeless after all!

  89. CynicallySweet*

    I have an update for y’all. My original question was about not making friends/being left out at work because I wasn’t into fantasy sports. Then it turned it “I work with a crazy person, what do I do?”

    This is actually fairly boring (which I am very happy about). I wrote down the things I though her manager legitimately should know about and the phrasing I wanted to use, as well as some phrases that popped into my head whenever I thought about it that I wanted to avoid using (trying to keep it professional). I also gave my friend in IT a heads up b/c when she was talking about him something just felt really off. He was aware of her, and avoiding her as much as possible already.

    I got in Monday with my notes to find her desk empty. She must have been fired b/c HR didn’t send out a goodbye all e-mail. The rummer mills still running pretty hard, but I’m avoiding it at all costs, keeping my head down and working on my deadline. Everything seems to be back to where it was. Footballs starting and the fantasy stuff back up with it (Phil went out of his way to invite pretty much every new woman in the dept to join in). I was thinking about joining with the advice from my original question, but decided against it (tbh I’m already really sick of hearing about football and the season just started, doing activities revolving around it sounds torturous).

    On a good note in the meeting people department I joined a trivia team (there was a flier in the break room). Some of the people I knew from my old job with the co, some I didn’t at all (none are in my dept tho). But it’s fun, and I’m enjoying it. Given how insular my dept is I’m not sure making friends within it is going to really happen, but I’m happy where I am right now.

    Thanks for all the advice (even the sarcastic ones I’d never follow through on, I enjoyed the fantasies)!!

    1. Thlayli*

      I’m glad it seems to be all sorted now. I’d also much rather be on a trivia team than a fantasy football team!

  90. Ms Security*

    My team and I met our new boss on Wednesday and I can already tell he isn’t going to fit well into the position. We are in the security field, and the new boss is going from a high power, high responsibility position to middle management with a team of five.

    I don’t know how the recruiter sweet talked him into this, but I could tell by the look on his face during our meet and greet the job he thought he was getting and the reality do not match up.

    1. Thlayli*

      Oh wow that’s awful. Bait and switch. I had a coworker who was told he was coming into a management position and was basically doing admin work. The money was good but he was just plain miserable and he left pretty quickly.

    2. WalkedInYourShoes*

      I have been through that experience. The “new boss” doesn’t last very long. One BigBoss of a high-growth little TeaPot startup was merged with a big TeaPot publicly traded company. There was an immediate power struggle. He wanted the BigBoss title at the big TeaPot company. As you can surmise, who won this “battle”? the BigBoss of the big TeaPot company; and the other BigBoss left. There are some instances where someone like this may become the right boss for the team. So, here’s what I would recommend 1) good time to revise your LinkedIn profile 2) update your resume – it’s always a good idea to update it 3) meet with the new manager regularly to find out what his goals and expectations are for the team.

  91. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    A gentleman at work has started calling me “kiddo.” I cringe.
    I am the youngest person in the office by probably at least 10 years, but I *am* an attorney. I also look even younger than I am–I’m almost 30 but most people think I’m barely 18. I’m also a woman.

    It has happened only a handful of times, but it’s noticeable. I think his intention is friendly, rather than condescending, but he is absolutely old enough to be my father or grandfather. The only script that comes to my mind so far is “Eesh, do you mind not calling me that?” next time he says it. Which feels abrasive when otherwise we have a positive working relationship. Any other suggestions?

    1. Snark*

      “Hey, I’d appreciate if you didn’t call me kiddo – hard to get taken seriously if people call you that. Thanks! Hey, wanna coffee? I was about to head over to the Mermaid.”

    2. Peaches*

      You could start it off with something soft as to not sound so abrasive…”hey, this may be trivial, but…”

      Also, I despise the word kiddo. Even used on children, I hate it.

      1. Snark*

        I’d deploy that if she gets pushback – “hey, I understand, it’s inoccuous and can seem trivial, but it’s important to me.”

        1. Kat in VA*

          Why soften it down with “I know this seems trivial…”?

          Because the answer might be “Yes it IS trivial and I’m gonna keep calling you kiddo!”

          She doesn’t need to soften the message or gentle it down because she’s a woman. It isn’t trivial, it’s bothering her, and a simple, “Hey, I’d appreciate it if…” as Snark said is all that’s required. She doesn’t need to be super soft about it or tone it down with “kinda, sorta, silly, trivial, no big deal BUT” language because the guy in question might get his feelings hurt.

          I know this sounds OVERLY SHOUTY FEMINIST but I’m starting, in my old age, to categorically reject the notion that women need to be overly gentle when we’re telling – not asking – people to not Do The Thing That Bothers Us. And sometimes TTTBU isn’t really a big deal, but when you add them all up, they turn into a Big Deal™ indeed. Wasn’t too long ago that one of the things a “lady lawyer” might have to endure was being called “kiddo” AND getting patted on the butt.

          You don’t have to be a bitch about it, of course, but you also don’t have to trip all over your own tongue to make the demand (because it shouldn’t be a request) palatable to the other gender.

          1. Snark*

            It’s to preempt the reaction that she’s bringing up something trivial. I’m not suggesting, and did not suggest, the softening language of “this is trivial, but.” I suggested the the preemptive language of”I understand this might seem trivial to you (implying, but it’s actually quite important).” It’s acknowledging the disconnect, correcting it, and emphasizing that even if it didn’t seem important it is.

            And unless he’s a completely awful person, which it doesn’t sound like, he’s not going to double down on “yes it IS trivial.”

            1. Snark*

              That said, I do understand your concern and totally agree! My intent was to suggest she kind of get out in front of the “but I call all the young ladies kiddo, what’s the problem” response by acknowledging he might be thinking it and underlining that it’s actually an important issue, not suggesting that she soften the language to spare his feelings. If there’s a better way to phrase that that doesn’t verge on softening language, by all means deliver that message however it makes sense to!

            2. Kat in VA*

              Durnit, I actually meant to reply to the poster ahead of you. I can see using the “trivial” commentary if there’s pushback, but I definitely wouldn’t start out that way – if the person is a jerk (and sometimes we get surprise jerks!), they would likely seize on that word and say, “Yeah, it IS trivial and you’re making a big deal out of nothing and…”

              Personal anecdote: I had a very similar conversation with an executive who insisted on calling me – and only me – “Sweetcheeks”. This was in the wilder, less correct ’90s, and I was much younger.

              I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to soften the approach of the discussion so he wouldn’t get mad. And I started out in a very similar vein, “I know it’s not a big deal, and I know you don’t mean anything but it, but I really don’t like being called Sweetcheeks so if you could not do that, I’d really appreciate it” or something like that.

              He *did* get mad. Boy, did he ever. He told me it was a COMPLIMENT, and I should get over myself, and he didn’t mean anything by it, he was MARRIED (!), and it was JUST a nickname, and on and on he went, spiraling higher and higher. I got subjected to a roughly ten minute lecture that ended in near-shouting volume…because I make the ginormous mistake of requesting that a professional adult male not call me “Sweetcheeks” in a professional setting because I didn’t like it and it was inappropriate.

              So I might, maybe, kinda, a little, juuuust sorta be letting personal experience color my response here. ;)

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      So tempted to respond by calling him “Gramps.” But Snark’s script is probably the better one.

    5. Lumen*

      If it were me (who also looks like I’m 10+ years younger than I am):

      me: *smile, tiniest hint of a cringe* “Oh, no thank you. I don’t like ‘kiddo’.”
      gentleman at work: *laughs, insists it’s all in good fun or suggests other ‘cute’ nicknames for me*
      me: *less of a smile* “That’s cute, but really:” *ever-so-slightly firmer voice* “you can just call me Lumen.”

      YMMV.

    6. CynicallySweet*

      You could always look around at waist level confused and say “Did someone bring their daughter to work today?”…Not really but the fantasy is nice. I’d go with something along the lines of “I understand you don’t mean anything by it, but I’m really sensitive about how young I look, do you mind not calling me that?” Making it about you should take some of the sting off, which to be clear there shouldn’t be a sting and he’s being obnoxious (even if it’s not condescending)

    7. Rey*

      Don’t make it a question, because than it’s a request that he can opt out of. “I’m not okay with that at work” or “I don’t like nicknames”. I’m standing with you! You got this! (A distant coworker has called me kiddo and it is so stupid and says more about them (stuck in an older, more discriminatory way of seeing the world) than it does about you (an awesome, accomplished, attorney)

    8. Thlayli*

      If you have a good relationship you could have an honest conversation about it. “Listen mike, when you call me kiddo in front of other people it makes me look like a child and stops people taking me seriously. Since I basically look like a teenage girl I have to work hard to be taken seriously anyway, and that really doesn’t help. It also doesn’t look good for you!

      I think it would probably be best if you just stop saying it altogether coz even if you just say it in private you’d eventually slip up and say it in front of someone else. So will you just stop saying it altogether please?”

      Optional extra: “If you want a nickname for me how about we come up with something that will make people take me MORE seriously not less.” Then have a good laugh brainstorming nicknames – it might make him think more about how nicknames can change people’s perception.

  92. Burnt out copywriter*

    What do you do when you don’t want to do what you’ve always been doing anymore?

    I’m a trained journalist in a copywriting job. Since I graduated high school, most of the clips that I have and work experience has been in writing articles/long form content. I’ve been writing for about 6 years now (2 years full time + 4 years freelancing while in college).

    But I’ve grown to loathe writing long form content. I’d much rather do the other stuff I do at work (social media posts, some design, reports and surveys) than long form content. Each long form content assignment fills me with dread and I procrastinate a lot.

    The problem is…our department is structured by skills. I was hired mainly because of my experience in long form content and my boss refers to me as ‘the article person’ when introducing me to clients. And the oddest part is, according to my boss – I’m good at writing long form content, and I master it the most among my department.

    Long story short – do I consider quitting a job that I am good at, but I no longer enjoy doing?

    1. CynicallySweet*

      Nothing wrong with considering or looking. It might be a good idea to see how well the skills you have now translate to the jobs you’re interested in though. If they’re not up to par you can work on them while having a full time job, and then the switch wouldn’t be as nerve wracking (or for me it would be, idk about you)

      1. Anna Held*

        I’d start with talking to your boss. Say you’re worried about burnout and you enjoy the other parts of your job. Ask about advancing into another role. She’d likely rather have you stay, happy, doing what you love part time than leaving altogether. Then you can build your resume while staying in place.

        Also, it never hurts to work on other skills — take an online course or the like. And I second that it’s always a good idea to look, find out what’s out there and what people are paying.

  93. AnonForThis*

    How often do you get positive feedback from your manager? I lead a creative team, and when my colleagues and I get input from my boss, it’s about the ways in which we’re missing the mark, not hitting it. We hear about what’s wrong but never about what’s right. I feel pretty sure we’re doing a good job, as we do hear praise from my boss’s boss (the seniormost member of our division). It’s frustrating — we work very, very hard producing a huge volume of content on tight deadlines and on a modest budget, and yet I feel demoralized when I should be feeling proud of what we accomplish. I’m not sure how to address this without sounding like a whiner. Any advice?

    1. CynicallySweet*

      Frame it as a way to help you get better at your job! I would image only getting negative feedback means you’re sometimes questioning if you’re doing things right too. Go with something along the lines of “Can we talk about some of the thing we/I do correctly, so that we can continue doing those things that way in the future.” You could also make it a big picture thing, like “because we only discuss the negatives on projects I sometimes have trouble knowing if there are things I’m doing that I should carry forward to other projects”. I don’t love my own wording on the second one, but it’s the idea that’s important. Also, this sucks and I’m sorry, and it’s not whining to want positive as well as negative feedback (just in case you didn’t know this already)

      1. AnonForThis*

        Thanks for that suggestion. And for the reminder that it’s normal to want and deserve the positive with the negative!

        1. CynicallySweet*

          No problem! I think when you work in those kind of environments it’s way too easy to forget that it’s normal to want to know ur doing a good job. Plus the part about not knowing what to carry forward is sometimes true

    2. Grace Less*

      My current company is fabulous about public praise, and it feels really good! If someone praises my work to me directly, I tend to deflect it, but when they copy my boss and grandboss on an email of praise, there’s nothing to do but enjoy it. I’m trying to “pay it forward”, letting people know when their contributions are exceptional, and copying their bosses. It’s possible that if you start doing that, it will be contagious and praise will start coming more easily and frequently.

  94. Goya de la Mancha*

    I would assume that ADA wouldn’t apply here, but said person is “certified” so can you really not hire someone because they have a disability?

    My friend, Ron Swanson, and I were discussing a hiring situation he has going on at his office. They have an applicant who has expressed that they have an anxiety issue which manifested during their certification class of a certain task. Ron explained to me that it’s akin to them applying to be a firefighter, but has anxiety attacks about entering burning buildings. It’s something that doesn’t happen everyday in the job, but you have to be ready/capable when it does happen.

    In reality, they shouldn’t have passed their certification as they were not able to complete a portion of the test/class, but Ron’s company did not hold the class they attended and I assume can’t do anything about that.

    Just curious – It in intrigued me that someone who apply for such a position having issues like that.

    1. LJay*

      Yes, if the disability prevents them from being able to do a major function of the job, even with reasonable accommodations, you really can just not hire them.

      If someone has debilitating allergies to dogs but wants to be a dog groomer you can just not hire them.
      If someone wants to be a fire fighter but can’t enter burning buildings, you can just not hire them.
      If someone wants to be a pilot but they’re blind, you can just not hire them.

      And in most cases I think the certification is separate from the actual hiring. Like, I can have a certification to be a be a speech pathologist, which shows that I had the requisite schooling, no character flaws, and that I pay money to the certifying body.

      But a job could still decline to hire me because I didn’t have experience with their population (even though technically my schooling prepares me to work with all populations and my certificate says I can work with all populations), or because they disliked my attitude in an interview, or because children give me panic attacks and the job is in an elementary school.

      If the job could be restructured to not contain the troublesome parts, I think it becomes a lot murkier. Like, if someone applies to be a groomer and is fine with dogs, but allergic to cats so can’t groom them, and dog grooming is 90% of the tasks and cat grooming is only 10% of the tasks and there will always be someone else available on the shift that can groom the cats.

      1. A username for aam*

        I’ve hired lifeguards and I have found that some certifications mean nothing with regards to ability to perform the job.

        Specifically, I have had a number of lifeguard candidates turn up who cannot swim or demonstrate any knowledge of rescue skills. The reason being, lifeguard classes are expensive and unethical instructors will pass everyone rather than risk angering a customer or lose money. Some are doing it for altruistic reasons, ex: kids in this neighborhood need access to jobs and we can’t fail them because they need money. But altruism doesn’t save lives…

        1. Goya de la Mancha*

          “I have found that some certifications mean nothing with regards to ability to perform the job.”

          True story! Definitely not just in the lifeguard field either!

      2. Goya de la Mancha*

        Thanks for that input! I assumed as much, but I don’t work closely with the hiring process and didn’t know for sure. I haven’t talked to Ron lately, so I don’t know how that all panned out.

  95. NeedYourOpinion*

    Would like some readers opinion on an interview question and comment:

    “In your stage of your career, do you think you have time to attend meetups and conferences?” and “You clearly have a strong skill set that has worked for you over several chapters of your career.”

    Please note that I’m interviewing for a leadership role in recruiting in a hot TeaPot job market in a hot TeaPot industry. I’m a 50-yr old female minority.

    I want to learn from this line of questioning and comments, because I found this insulting. So, I know how to respond better and if I was overthinking. Thoughts?

    Update: As you can guess, I was not a good fit. Luckily I dodged a bullet.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Huh, I’m not sure if I would find that insulting, myself. It sounds like they’re acknowledging that you’re senior in your career and they’re wondering if you would want to spend time networking at conferences or not. But others please weigh in!

    2. Amber Rose*

      Yeah, I don’t see anything insulting in there. They seem to be just be referring to the fact that you’re doing really well in your field and they’re curious whether that leaves you too busy for networking stuff.

    3. Murphy*

      The first question sounds to me like they’re trying to assess whether you have family obligations, e.g. children that would prevent you from traveling and attending evening events.

      The second comment…ehh…It would depend on how it was said. It could just be an acknowledgement of your experience and skills, but it also sounds like it could be an “overqualified” brush-off. Though that doesn’t seem right for a leadership position where you’d want someone experienced.

      1. irene adler*

        That’s my take as well. They imply the age issue with the “In your stage of your career” (with plausible deniability).

    4. Antilles*

      I think the way to react is saying something about how you believe that constant learning and keeping up with the state of practice is critical in our industry so if the opportunity for conferences comes up, you’d certainly arrange your schedule to attend. You could even use that to flow into follow-up questions about how the company feels about continuing education/conferences/etc too and get some good information.

      1. NeedYourOpinion*

        Yes, I said something similar to this, but I like yours better. I think it is important to understand what is working, best practices. Strangely enough, one of the top responsibilities is to create inclusion and diversity program. So, ironic.

    5. Snark*

      I feel like the first one lands – on these 35 year old, male, white – ears as fairly inoccuous, though it may just be stealthy enough that I’m not attuned to it and will defer to your gut reaction. But that comment about your skill set was heeeeellllla condescending. “Look at you, so learned up! I bet you work so hard.” Blech.

      1. Thlayli*

        I’m a 38 yo female and it seem innocuous to me too, though I get that it could be checking up on having enough time and energy outside of work to do extra stuff? But I wouldn’t want a job that requires unpaid extra work at thi stage of my life anyway so I’d be happy enough to be excluded on that basis myself. The second one I don’t get how it’s insulting at all.

    6. CynicallySweet*

      I’m confused. This doesn’t sound insulting to me. It kind of seems like they’re saying ‘you’re going to have to do meetups and conferences for this job, is that ok’. That doesn’t sound weird to me, especially if it’s for a somewhat senior position that normally wouldn’t have to do those things. And the second just seems like they’re acknowledging your skill set. Were there other indications that your age was a factor (I feel like that’s why you were feeling insulted, if not I apologize)?

      1. Snark*

        The thing is, would they acknowledge an older white male’s skill set? I’ve never, ever had anything along those lines said to me. Of course she has a skill set that’s worked for her for several chapters of her career, that’s what a professional skill set does. It’s such a tautology that there’s no reason to say it, unless.

        1. CynicallySweet*

          As I’m not an older while man I have no idea, but as someone whose had many random jobs I’ve had things like this said to me and didn’t bat an eye (for example I’m good at keeping track of several projects at once w/o issue b/c of my years as a waitress). But I also don’t have any context to that statement. If it truly was a random thing said out of the blue, yeah it would be weird. If they were maybe talking about all the different fields she’d been in and how she’d applied skills picked up along the way to multiple fields, much less weird. I probably shouldn’t have assumed it was a part of a larger conversation, but given the information we have I did… Also thank you for the new word!

          1. Lil Fidget*

            It’s also likely that we’re not picking up the tone or expression that was used, which adds a lot.

            1. CynicallySweet*

              This is very true. I can see circumstances where it would be a very weird/singling out thing to say, but there are other that it would be a pretty normal observation.

    7. CAA*

      As a 55 yr old white female, I would not find either of those insulting unless there was more context or a tone of voice that went with them.

      The response to the question about meetups and conferences is something like “Yes, I love to meet people who work in this industry and I try to get out and stay in touch with local groups as much as possible. For example, last week I went to ….” Or if you think the question is implying that you are spending too much time on these activities, then the answer is more like “I’ve always enjoyed those activities in the past, but I’ve found that I’m reaching a point in my career where I’m handling bigger projects and have responsibilities at work that take more time so I’m not able to do as much outside networking as I used to.”

      For the skill set comment, say something like “Thanks! I’ve worked hard to develop my skills in x and y and it’s really paid off because I was able to apply them in project z by doing …”

      1. NeedYourOpinion*

        Thanks for the other ways to respond. I responded something similar to this, “Yes, it’s important to understand what type of talent pool is available. With conferences and meetups, you are able to find great potential candidates by networking at these events.”

        As for the skill set comment, I really like that and will remember it for next week onsite interviews.

        Update: Thanks to AAM and everyone’s advice, I have landed my 2nd round of phone and onsite interviews for 2 BigTeaPot Companies and 2 little Startup TeaPot Companies. I will keep you all posted. I just keep applying.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      The phrasing isn’t great, that’s for sure. Both questions/comments bring up your career stage/chapters explicitly, which is kind of understandable as it’s a senior role and they should be looking for experienced candidates. But it definitely puts a frame on the way these questions sound. Both are open to vaguely negative or challenging interpretations because of it – like, what’s behind asking if you have time to attend conferences specifically due to this stage of your career? Because the likeliest reasons for asking are age and family obligations that typically go with being in that age range. And your skill set worked (past tense) previously in your career… but is the implication that’s as far as it could get you, or your skills are stale, or you haven’t acquired more current skills?

      I mean, the same questions could have been asked as:
      “How do you feel about attending meetups and conferences?” or “What do you think is the role of meetups and conference attendance in this role?”
      “How do you see your skill set as an asset to this position?” or “What uniquely qualifies you for this role?”

      1. Chaordic One*

        I don’t think that I would find these insulting either. I would take the “You clearly have a strong skill set that has worked for you over several chapters of your career.” as being something of a compliment.

        My initial thought on hearing “In your stage of your career, do you think you have time to attend meetups and conferences?” was that they were making an inquiry as to whether or not this is something that you would be interested in, and open to, doing. But I suppose that the other commenters were correct in that it could be an inquiry into whether or not you are able to do it with your family situation.

      2. Thlayli*

        But I don’t get it. What family obligations do 55 yo women typically have that prevent them from going to conferences? For most people at that age the kids are grown or in college so it’s not like they will be at little league in the evenings. I can understand this being offensive if it was aimed at 30s or 40s women, but the vast majority of 55yo women don’t have those sorts of time drains.

        I was pretty late stating a family and even for me my youngest will be 20 when I’m 55.

        1. Woman of a Certain Age*

          At that age the children of most people are grown, or at least in school, but many middle-aged people end up having to care for grandchildren and/or elderly parents. I’ve had to take time from work for my parents who are in their 80s.

    10. NeedYourOpinion*

      Thanks for everyone’s thoughts, how to respond better, and validating the impressions I had.

      Update: With AAM and everyone’s advice, I ended the week with better results. 2 2nd onsite interviews and 2 2nd phone interviews. I also created a list of questions that I found on this site that determine if the BigBoss is a good leader/manager or not. Some were absolutely amazing and thought to myself, ‘Wow, I would love to work with someone like you’. Some could not answer questions like “Thinking back to a person who you thought was an amazing leader, what made this person stand out? (a stumped look)”, “What’s separates this BigTeaPot Company from your competitors? (One interviewer/BigBoss responded, ‘Do you not know details of our products?)”, and “I know that we have run out of time. I can follow-up with an email with some questions (The interviewer/BigBoss responded, it’s not necessary)” The last one just cracked me up. I thought, ‘Wow, no wonder you need someone to lead recruiting.’ It was one of the worst interviews that I have been on.

  96. imustbanonymous*

    I have a question I hope someone in HR can answer, the recent thread about being paid in 15 minute increments, like we do, got me thinking about it. My job is staffed 24/7, 365. My coworker on night shift who was working during the Fall time change, was told they would only be paid for 8 hours even though they worked 9, and not to worry about it because it would even out during the other time change. Is this legal? Also it’s entirely possible that a different person could be working the next time change, so they wouldn’t have a chance to even it out.

        1. imustbanonymous*

          Thanks, everyone! I figured it wasn’t legit, but it’s nice to be validated. That was actually on the mild end of the spectrum for my boss.

    4. Antilles*

      Also it’s entirely possible that a different person could be working the next time change, so they wouldn’t have a chance to even it out.
      Or that you weren’t at the company on the next time change, so to ‘even out’, the company would need to write you a check for the extra hour of pay. Or that you’re on unpaid leave during the time change, so you’re not even available for the extra hour. Or that the company legitimately forgets (or “forgets”) who’s owed an hour six months from now.
      Oh, by the way, that same logic would imply that if you hired someone over the winter and they worked the night shift, your company would pay them 9 hours of money for 8 hours of work when the time change happens. I feel 100% comfortable betting they’re not doing that.

      1. imustbanonymous*

        All good points. I’m going to check with the night shift person next time change out of curiosity, if it’s not corrected I’m going to show them the link I was sent above, however I doubt my coworker will decide it would be worth it to complain.

        1. LCL*

          The way we do it is, we send a memo to the night shift at spring forward time. We tell them they will only get paid for 11 hours instead of 12, if they wish their full 12 they have to use an hour of vac or sick time, or start 1 hour early. Fall people usually just get a reminder, and we pay them for the full 13 hours.

  97. NonprofitBurnout*

    How to escape nonprofit field?

    I have nine years of nonprofit fundraising experience, including some contract, regular and management experience. With nearly a decade of good work, I now suffer from extreme burnout and am focused on revamping my resume to appeal to for-profit businesses.

    Specifically, I am seeking any suggestions on rewriting my resume to catch the eye of hiring managers at businesses and universities looking to fill communications/marketing/fundraising positions. My current resume lands solidly with nonprofits but doesn’t even make a blimp on the for-profit side.

    What are your suggestions for creating a resume highlighting transferable skills, rather than achievements in nonprofit fundraising? Has anyone achieved success when leaving the nonprofit field?

    Thanks for any and all suggestions/advice and commiserations.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I’ve seen people leverage their side hustles into for profit experience? If you have any of that? if you have a blog or a small business thing you’re doing on your own, you can talk about sales and marketing if your old job didn’t have any of those elements. Or volunteering, maybe?

      1. NonprofitBurnout*

        Lil Fidget, unfortunately, I have no side hustle or blog. Most of my experience aside from paid work is volunteering and attending community trainings. Still, I appreciate your comment. Thanks!

    2. Murphy*

      I don’t know about for-profit, but I would think that those skills would easily transfer to a university development office, or a marketing/communications position.

      1. NonprofitBurnout*

        Murphy, thanks for the suggestion. I currently have some applications out positions at small liberal arts universities. However, I often lack training for their respective databases and have no higher education experience.

    3. Bea*

      If you’re willing to work for smaller firms, they may be happy to give you a chance. For marketing we wouldn’t really be bothered if you were moving from non-profit to for-profit.

      You may need to start off in a junior role in marketing for a larger set up but there’s certainly plenty of hope.

  98. Doloris Van Cartier*

    When looking at possible switching fields, how do you know what you are qualified for? I’ve worked in the non-profit field for the last eight years and have worked mostly within volunteer management but also some events and client services. At some point, I need to figure out a new path as there isn’t a lot of growth options for volunteer managers unless you belong to a very large organization. When I’m killing time, I’ll look at various postings to see what is out there but I just get concerned that I won’t be able to translate my skills. If anyone has made the transition and have some guidance to share, I’d greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance!

    1. NonprofitBurnout*

      Wow, Doloris Van Cartier, I just posted nearly the same question! Looks as though several of us nonprofit folks are looking to move on.

      Although I have no answers, I offer sympathy and wish you great success in your search.

      1. Doloris Van Cartier*

        I don’t know if it’s the heat or a new FY, but the burnout feels too real right now. Good luck with everything!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      When looking at possible switching fields, how do you know what you are qualified for?

      I’ll look at various postings to see what is out there but I just get concerned that I won’t be able to translate my skills.

      Pay more attention to the responsibilities than to the requirements. In other words, instead of looking at the list of qualifications, ask yourself if you can do the job. That’s how I was able to switch fields a couple of times.

      2. Anna*

        Yep. I worked in volunteer management for 3 years (so not nearly as long as you) and was looking to switch to HR. I mainly looked at the responsibilities as well, and it was also super important to be very explicit in my cover letter about how my experience would prepare me for those responsibilities, since so many people don’t even know what volunteer managers even do. Also, you may want to consider adjusting your title a little bit on your resume – it’s pretty standard for volunteer managers/coordinators to call themselves Community Engagement managers/coordinators or something like that, because otherwise people think we’re volunteers ourselves!

    3. OyVey*

      Can you quantify the value that your volunteers brought to the organization?
      Your volunteers represent a value of X to the organization (currently, a volunteer hour is set at $26 something/hour for grant valuation).
      Your volunteers achieved X for the organization
      Your volunteers achieved X in the community
      You developed A and B training protocols
      You improved C training protocol
      You expanded the org’s reach in Y way

      In the gov and for profit worlds, volunteer manager translates to coordinator pretty well and sometimes project management (not always, as there’s often industry specific skill sets or qualifications needed)

  99. Quitting without a job lined up*

    I know this is a somewhat controversial topic, but I wanted to share my experience resigning without a job lined up. My past two jobs unfortunately were toxic. I struggle with anxiety, and by the end both jobs reeeally took a toll on my mental health. Which is bad on its own, but it also made it hard to job search, because I wasn’t on my A-game. One time I actually forgot to go to an interview because I was so depressed. So anyway this has been my experience:

    -quit a job January of 2015. Volunteered in the field I wanted to enter, got two temp jobs in March and April, and was hired fulltime May 2015.
    -Quit a job April 2018. Before my notice period was over, I already landed a contracting gig. That’s about to end, and I have three final-round interviews next week. I’m optimistic that I’ll find something. I was “job hunting” for the past two YEARS I was at that job.

    So basically, I know the “stats” about unemployed people getting interviews at a lower rate that unemployed people. But no one knows you and what helps you find a job as well as you do. For example, at my last job it was like an abusive dynamic, where things would be terrible, I’d apply to jobs, and get interviews, but by then I’d be like, “well, this job isn’t so bad. And interviewing sucks! I’ll turn it down.” And the cycle kept repeating. But now I know I need a job, and my mental health is so much better, so I am confident and pleasant in interviews.

    Basically, trust yourself and do what you need to do.

    1. Partly Cloudy*

      I like all of this.

      Also, job hunting is time consuming and mentally exhausting. In that sense, it’s a lot easier to do it when you have full-time hours to devote to it, rather than working around your current (soul-sucking) job.

    3. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Two years ago, I did that. I acquired a new BigBoss and was a “victim” of management changes that became very abusive and difficult to work. So, I tried to job hunt while I was miserable. I was depressed, because I couldn’t eat or sleep. So, to the shock of everyone, I quit. I had to refocus on me and making sure that I was mentally ok. It took 6 months and landed a consulting role with a former BigBoss who was an amazing leader. Recently, I left my last consulting role at my 3rd TeaPot company where I saw the exact signs that were similar back two years ago. I was not able to quit, because I was a consultant. But, the 3rd TeaPot company ended my consulting gig. It was a learning moment that I know if those signs are there to move on quickly. Interviewing at first was challenging and sometimes still is, but getting to my ideal job. I have 2nd onsite and 4 phone interviews next week.

  100. Erika22*

    How long would you say is too long to not respond to a recruiter on Linkedin?

    This past week I was waiting on a formal job offer (pending a visa check) and when I finally saw the actual offer, I had to decline. In the meantime, I had gotten a couple messages from recruiters about vague positions, and I didn’t respond at all. Now that I’ll be on the hunt again, I’ve responded asking for more information if they’re still recruiting for the role, but I was wondering how long is too long to not respond to those kinds of messages? I feel like five business days tops, but even that seems long for this sort of thing. And of course, being vague roles with little information aside from salary band, I won’t be disappointed if I don’t hear back, so it’s not like it hurts to respond. Anyone else have an arbitrary time frame in mind for these kinds of responses?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Recruiters aren’t going to wait to hear back from you, but if they haven’t filled that position yet, they are going to be thrilled if you respond at all. As long as you’re cognizant of the fact that they may have filled the position and moved on already, I’d say responding in a week or two is perfectly fine.

    2. From a Recruiting Professional*

      It happens. Just reach out to the recruiter, “Hi, Katie: Thanks for reaching out. I would be very interested in learning more about the opportunity. Here are my availabilities.” Most likely the recruiter(s) who have reached out to you are very busy. So, the recruiter should not think that it’s too late to respond. However, if you have not heard back from you message that it may be an indication on how the interview process is going to be if you do continue with the company.

      As AAM has mentioned before, keep interviewing until you have signed the “offer letter”.

  101. tap*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to best thank someone for helping you get a job?
    I just accepted a position at a company an old boss of mine put me in touch with. I would have never have known about the company nor position without her knowing the hiring manager and recommending me.
    I was planning on sending her a thank you email but now I’m worried that’s not really enough. I’d been unemployed for a long while and have been in a really dark space, her help has meant the world to me and I want her to know that. Would sending some small flowers along with a thank you card be too much?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If you have her address, send her a handwritten thank you card. I think flowers would be overkill.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      A thank you email is standard. A note would be above the norm, but still acceptable. and really nice Flowers would be too much.

  102. The Other CC*

    Calling all legal assistants/legal secretaries/paralegals!

    I’m starting training for my new job (yay!) as a legal assistant working for an estate/probate attorney in November, but I want to do some extracurricular reading on my own time so I’m not going in completely cold. I don’t have much experience in the field beyond what I’ve kind of picked up by osmosis working in the office part-time scanning documents. Are there any books or online resources you would recommend I read to prepare myself? (The other day, I told my former-estate-attorney mom that I didn’t know what probate court was. She was *shocked* and wailed “I have failed you a mother and a lawyer!”)

      1. The Other CC*

        Yes, but she hasn’t practiced in 20+ years, and I’m interested in the details of being a legal assistant in particular (she went straight from college into law school into a big law firm). I definitely plan on discussing things with her! But I was wondering if there was an “Estate Law for Dummies” book or something people recommended.

        And I just looked, and there is in fact “Estate Planning for Dummies”. So, onto the Amazon wishlist it goes!

    2. CTT*

      Seconding the suggestion to talk to your mom! Also, are you replacing someone at the firm or is it an entirely new position? If it’s the former, I’d reach out to the person you’re replacing (as long as they’re leaving on good terms!) and ask to get coffee. Every field has its quirks, and every attorney has their own quirks (i.e., probate court might have different filing requirements, Attorney A likes everything printed out but Attorney B prefers electronic copies); a lot of that you’ll learn on the job, but it can be nice to have some of the big things spelled out to you beforehand.

      1. The Other CC*

        Absolutely! I am replacing a legal assistant who has been there 20+ years (!) and who had been a legal assistant before that for a number of years at a much bigger firm. So there’s a lot of information in her brain and a lot of stuff she does that is second nature to her and might not occur to her to explain to me (e.g. “what is probate court”) in the few weeks when we will be overlapping full-time so she can train me. I am currently working with her very part-time on an organizational project and am trying to ask her some of those questions without intruding too much on her work. I’m just looking for other resources that can kind of give me a crash course in Estate Planning 101, particularly from the perspective of a legal assistant rather than a lawyer or client.

  103. Canton*

    I wanted to post this last week but I guess now works: I got an offer and I start new job in a few weeks. Notice has already been given and work is already slowing (well, it was slow before I gave notice).
    I’m very happy to be leaving this toxic environment but I’m trying to compose myself.

  104. Teapot librarian*

    I’m feeling rather dumped on this week and have come here to vent. (Thank you for listening.) I think I’ve mentioned before that my office is seriously underresourced. One of the consequences of this is that we aren’t able to do outreach and other things that would get us more notice (and more resources)–we’re totally just treading water and trying not to drown. Meanwhile, to keep the metaphor going, we’re being told things like “we have to do more with less, so go ahead and build a raft, but we’re not going to give you the materials to build the raft.” Well, over the last few months, FOUR other offices have made plans for my office or tried to set policy for my office or just plain overlooked my office’s mandatory role in certain areas, two of them happening just this week. So not only are we trying not to drown, but now we have other offices stepping on our heads like stepping stones. And at the same time, I have colleagues in other offices that have TONS more resources than we have, who are saying things like they feel like their offices are disappearing and no one cares. Try walking a mile in my shoes! (Or swimming a mile in my shoes.)

  105. Alcott*

    I have a young employee that needs to develop thicker skin and I have no idea how to coach her on that. I know that it’s somewhat related to inexperience, but are there ways I can specifically help her grow in this area? A big part of her job is to support finicky and demanding VIPs, but she lets every difficult interaction ruin her week. I need her not to fall apart every time someone is a pain in the butt.

    I’m not talking about screaming or name calling or anything that could be construed as “abusive” behavior. It’s more general inconsideration – brusqueness, making requests in a pushy manner, etc.

    1. Holly*

      Can you just talk to her about it? Make it a performance issue – because it is. Like, “I know people can be brusque or pushy but you need to let it roll of your back and continue doing the work. If there’s anything that rises beyond that level, let me know, but otherwise I need to see you remain focused and not let it get to you.”

      1. Earthwalker*

        Store up some examples to mention too, like, “When he said X, you did Y, but it would have been more effective if Z.” I had a boss who would put something like “you need a thicker skin” on an evaluation, and could offer no explanation, or remember why he had it in his notes, or what incident had prompted it, or what specific future behavior would demonstrate that I had made a positive change. An example would have been so helpful!

    2. Lumen*

      She may need to be put in contact with your EAP, if you have one. Stuff like this usually goes deeper than just not having a ‘thick skin’, and the advice usually given to sensitive people about letting things roll off their back or not being so sensitive often just makes it worse.

      One thing you can do as her manager is a smiling reminder “Well, it’s not personal” or “That’s not about you” re: the behavior of these VIPs. That may be what she needs to get through her head: other people being difficult isn’t a reflection on her and probably has nothing to do with her.

      (I say all this having been a lot like your employee, and it’s something I still struggle with sometimes. I have to remind myself a lot that as long as I’m doing my best at my job, I really don’t need to focus on the minutiae and nuance of someone else’s behavior. It’s most likely NOT ABOUT ME.)

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah. I know armchair diagnosing is off the table for LW posts, but are we allowed do that here? Because it sounds more like she needs professional help than just a change in perspective.

        Maybe try “build a bridge and get over it. Taking crap from bosses is part of the job and if you can’t handle it you need a new job”

    3. Sylvan*

      I actually had this performance problem in an old job (customer service, which I learned I am not remotely suited to); it might help her to hear:

      – How you have developed a thicker skin or seen other employees do it. What strategies work?
      – A suggestion to watch how other employees handle difficult people. Maybe she can pick up whatever is working for them. Even if she can’t, she might feel better knowing that you’re all dealing with the same things.
      – Advice to focus on the positive interactions and feedback she receives. She might deal with one rude person today, but maybe ten others were polite and pleasant.

  106. Justin*

    Weird dilemma:

    (TLDR: I bring up diversity as an important aspect of jobs when interviewing, and am wondering if it backfires; if it does, should I stick to my guns or not mention it and possibly end up The Only?)

    I like my job. It is fine. It gets dull between projects, as do other project-based jobs. It pays fine. But might as well actually keep an eye out. So I ran into a friend who works in an edtech firm, and she said they had openings, so I was like, alright, sure.

    I applied, she gave me an informal interview, I moved to the next stage, and the next one, and there were two more (yeah, I know…), but that was as far as I got. I would usually just sort of say, well, alright, guess I wasn’t their ideal candidate. But something I wonder –

    At this point in my career, I need a few things to change gigs: salary, interesting work, flexibility (starting school soon), etc, but mostly I want to get along well with the people. I like my colleagues now but wouldn’t really want to see any outside of work, and still, after 8 years back home, don’t really have any “work friends.” Whatever, but a big issue for me is, until this current job, I was always the only person of color at work (aside from certain usually minority positions like custodians). I have literally always dealt with this (every school, every trip I went on, etc), but finally at this job, although they aren’t really my friends, it’s very diverse and still well-paid.

    So, after asking the usual questions, I often brought up that this was important to me during the three phone interviews (yeah, I know…) I had with the edtech place. They responded positively each time, but, although I thought I did well during each interview, I clearly wasn’t selected to make the final rounds.

    Do you think, whenever I get into a new set of interviews, I should shut up about wanting to be part of a diverse team? Or, if this is important to me (and it really is; it’s exhausting being The Only), should I accept that it might turn some folks off? OR, well, maybe they just didn’t like me and I’m reading too much into it, sure, but the question stands overall.

    1. Justin*

      Damn it, they reset my computer and now it’s autofilling in my whole name. Oh well, I had a link to my website, so, I guess you know my name now.

    2. lulu*

      I think it’s very important to you, and for good reasons, so you should really bring it up during the hiring process. I’m curious though why you brought it up 3 times. Was there something more you wanted them to add? Did you want to check with another person that they would say the same thing as the first one? You could also have used your friend to get a reality check of how diverse this place really is, without having to ask every interviewer.

      1. Justin*

        I brought it up more than once because I got the impression that the right hand wasn’t talking to the left hand.

        They all kept asking me the same questions – leaving me wondering why there were three interviews – and two of the three didn’t actually work on the team where I’d be working. So I probably did come off “difficult” but they came off disorganized and I wanted to be clear, though I overdid it I suspect.

        1. Justin*

          My friend (not really a good friend, college-mate a couple years ahead of me) was vague when I talked to her, the second person didn’t work in the same office, and finally the third person was actually on the team. I couldn’t really get a full answer, I guess. I could have waited until the final round and actually seen the team in the office. But I didn’t want to take a day off work without knowing this. Oh well, I’m not sure I would have liked it, but in the future I’ll be less anxious about it.

          1. lulu*

            Got it. Unfortunately I guess seeing the team is the best way, otherwise you are likely to get BS answers about how they value diversity, but that doesn’t mean they actually have a diverse staff. There’s no good way to ask on the phone “how many minorities do you have on the team” but I hear you on always being the only one, that sounds exhausting.

            1. Justin*

              Like when I asked my sort-of-friend, she said they had a big celebration of LGBTQ+ pride month in June.

              This is a good thing! They should do that!

              That is not what I asked and is not what I’m concerned about. But I probably got my answer (“yeah…. we’re very white I guess”) in that non-answer eh?

              1. Thlayli*

                Maybe you need to be clearer in how you’re asking? Like if you specifically want to know if they have other people of colour, could you just ask “roughly what percentage of your team are people of colour” instead of asking about diversity. Diversity can mean pretty much anything and your acquaintance may actually have thought you wanted to know about lgbtqa+ issues.

    3. Marcy*

      If it’s really important to you, in the sense that you wouldn’t want a job that didn’t have a diverse team, then you should continue to bring it up, but you might be self-selecting yourself out of certain places that don’t have the diversity you want. If a company takes an honest look at itself and realizes they’re falling short on diversity, I don’t know that they’ll want to go with a candidate who would be unhappy there.

        1. Marcy*

          Not bad at all! I think it’s the exact result you’re looking for, but unless you’re in an unusually diverse field, I wouldn’t be surprised or discouraged if this means you get less callbacks for jobs that you are otherwise qualified for.

          1. Justin*

            Education is… better than many fields, but way worse than it should be. Just tired of having to be an ambassador all the time. At my last job there were more white women named Lauren (no offense to such folks, in fact I liked all of said Laurens) than POC, aside from, again, custodians/porters/drivers.

    4. Washi*

      Hmm. TBH that actually sounds like an easy question and not something that should put people off! I feel like in 2018 most companies are capable of talking the diversity talk, even if they’re not walking the walk. A company that’s put off by just a question about diversity seems like definitely somewhere that you wouldn’t want to work.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I can see it being a really hard question for a company to answer. Putting aside companies that already have diverse teams, you could find a company that realizes they have an issue and is trying hard to fix it but just started, so you would be the only POC on the team. That’s legitimately not for you. And they’re probably kind of embarrassed, so they give you an answer that comes off as BS. They might also wonder if they’re stepping on some kind of weird territory if they say, “You would be our first!” So I’m honestly curious if they’re not making you offers because they don’t want to put you in the position of being the only POC on the team, because you do feel strongly about it. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, that they’re taking this important piece of your puzzle into consideration, but if that’s the case, I wish they would let you make that decision instead of making it for you. Don’t stop asking, though. It’s a dealbreaker for you, and you need to have that kind of info to guide your decision-making.

    6. From a Recruiting Professional*

      I think that it is important. I know that all the companies where I have worked wants to build a more inclusive diverse team. I have had candidates ask, “How many women do you have in leadership?” or “What types of programs or initiatives do you have in place to attract more minorities or under represented groups?” It all is relevant especially in the Hot ‘TeaTech’ industry. I actually like hearing those questions. When BigBosses ask why “so-so” went to the other ‘Big TeaPot’ company, the answer I give him is that they have a more diverse employee population. So, do not disregard your personal goals or feelings about being part of a diverse team. You will land a role soon. There are companies out there.

  107. Anon for this question 987654321*

    When investors who have been with the company for less than a year bring in new CXOs, does that ever turn out to be good for morale and for contributing employees?

    1. Building Teams*

      It can work both ways. If the investor is absolutely “midas touch”, then, they tend to bring amazing leaders and those leaders have great qualities to bring out the best environment and build out teams. However, if an investor’s investments have been rocky especially with leadership in their portfolio companies, those CXOs tend to have more struggles especially the morale of the company tends to head south.

      Investors at different stages of a startup company will do just that bring in new CXOs to make sure the company succeeds in what has not happened in the early growth of the company. It has happened in public companies.

      You know when it’s time to leave is when a new CXO team comes in and states, “This is how we use to do it at TeaPot company”, “That’s not how it was done at TeaPot company.” Every company is different.

      Many years ago, I was part of 4 merger/acqusitions. 2 of the 4 acquired companies were super happy that they were part of a new team. The other 2 had major company culture issues. So again, it can go both ways.

  108. Rescue ALL the dogs*

    So this is a career/life dilemma, but mostly career I think, so hopefully I’m right in posting it here. I work in accreditation in higher ed. If anyone has been following what’s happening, there’s been a push from the top to re-examine accreditation and the authority given to regional bodies. Many in my field feel that it’s only a matter of time until we need to find new careers.

    I currently live in a small town in Texas. There are limited options locally for jobs, full stop, and that’s including all sectors, not just education. So here’s my dilemma…I could just ride this out, it’s possible that nothing will happen, but then again it’s possible that it may…
    Alternatively, I recently got married and my husband is British. The original plan was for him to move here as I had a more lucrative career…but now I’m thinking it may make more sense for me to cut my loses and start over there. I’m looking into maybe project management but I don’t know how hard it is to get into that, and with Brexit looming, I don’t know what’s going to happen with the economy.

    Does anyone have any insight for me? I’ve got a lot of friends who have a stake in this outcome and I’m worried that that’s influencing the advice they give me. I’m trying to approach this in the most logical way possible.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Without getting too political, I’ll simply point out that you’re likely facing issues regardless of which of you emigrates.

      So, look at the realities of your current situations and figure out what makes the most sense for you as a couple without making the political ramifications a major factor in your decision.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah this. Figure out which of you has the best job to keep in terms of longevity as well as income, and keep that one. Leave politics out of it.

    2. NeverNicky*

      Okay, I’m biased as a Remainer but Brexit is going to bring another level of chaos to the uncomfortable place the UK currently is.
      There’s increasing austerity (local councils setting budgets to do the bare legal minimum); increasing hostility to migrants which starts with the government bureaucracy; the economy is going downhill with major retailers going broke; the NHS is woefully under resourced and now the Government is talking about stockpiling food if there’s a no deal Brexit …
      Okay, we are still a relatively affluent country but Brexit could crucify us economically.
      If you can, wait a couple of years to see how this all shakes down …

  109. The Ginger Ginger*

    Anyone have any good resources on learning to code a little bit later in life? I’ve been trying to learn a bit about it (or at least how to talk about it) given that I’m now working on projects with developers, and I’m so intrigued. I’ve always liked languages and learning languages, so I’m not sure how I never made the connection that this could be something I enjoyed, but there it is.

    I have Lynda access through work, but I don’t feel super good about using it just because this isn’t technically for my job. I’m not looking to make the leap to developer in my work life (though a side hustle never hurt anyone).

    I’m willing to spend a little bit of money to do this. I’d also LOVE it if there were a class I could take with an actual instructor that I could ask questions. Any books or online resources need to be written for basically a total noob.

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Most community colleges should have computer classes, so I’d recommend seeing if there’s one near you offering one that fits your budget and schedule. I took part of a coding course at my local community college (I, er, dropped out because I got into grad school and needed to prepare for that, lol), and while this would obviously vary from school to school and teacher to teacher, I felt like the instruction was good overall.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I looked into community college courses (and continuing ed through colleges and universities) for coding classes and while there’s not a big variety of languages they offer, there will probably be one or two courses that might be what you’re looking for.

        However, I’d argue that if your work allows Lynda access *and* you’re working with developers, that using Lynda to check out a course to better familiarize yourself with whatever language they use, is a good work appropriate use. I don’t know how Lynda courses are run, but the course I’m taking through Coursera has multiple 5-10 minute videos on different topics so it doesn’t have to be a huge time investment.

    2. Elisabeth*

      Codecademy is good for overview stuff and just getting your feet wet and then take a peek at The Odin Project! I started that before I got snowed at work, and am looking forward to going back to it ASAP.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      In my area, the local chapter of Girl Develop It offers quite a lot of introductory coding classes (for a fee) plus hosts a free monthly meetup for people to get together and work on their projects/homework. I think the local Python meetup does something similar. (I was a volunteer instructor at one of their courses – despite the fact that I don’t know how to write Python!) Maybe there are similar groups in your area offering these types of classes?

    4. 99 lead balloons*

      Not a coder at all, but I’ve enjoyed playing around on an app called SoloLearn. It’s available as both a phone and desktop app and breaks stuff down to where even I can understand it.

    5. Kate Daniels*

      Can you see if your public library provides access to Lynda? Many do. I also don’t feel comfortable accessing the work-provided subscription because your workplace can see what you watch or do on Lynda, so I use it through my personal library account.

    6. Windchime*

      I went the community college route and am very happy with my decision. I didn’t have the option to go to a university at the time (very rural community), but the community college class was very small (like less than 15 people) and we got lots of personalized instruction. I was in my late 30’s when I went back to school. I got my first coding job when I was 39 and have been working in the industry now for 18 years. I love it and don’t ever plan to do anything else. I highly recommend your local community college.

  110. MsChandandlerBong*

    I got my first hate mail as an HR manager this week! A candidate missed his interview, and I declined to reschedule it (his email to me was filled with errors, and I am trying to fill a writing position), so he emailed me and said I am “very unfair” and the worst HR manager he has ever encountered. I can tell I’ve grown a lot as a person. Five years ago, that would have made me cry. Today it makes me laugh.

    2. Purple Soda*

      Ah yes, an angry insulting e-mail. That would totally change the HR manager’s mind!
      (Seriously, why do people do this? At best, it would be useless in changing the manager’s mind. At worst, it would get you blacklisted in the company forever)

      1. Partly Cloudy*

        Dear Candidate,

        Thank you for pointing out my flawed decision-making. I have reconsidered and would love to interview you at your convenience.

        -No HR manager ever

    3. Building Teams*

      I remember several months ago, a candidate emailed the entire marketing team and c-level executives, because a recruiter miss a phone interview. That does not make a company want to hire this candidate. If a recruiter misses a call, please do not email the entire marketing and executive team. I thought that I saw it all, but this one was a new one.

  111. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

    My coworker who was charged with armed robbery may be coming back to work. Is that weird enough to say something?

    We’re very blue collar and have a lot of ex-cons, most of whom are perfectly fine workers. I have no idea how serious their crimes were. But it feels different when it’s so recent.

    I’d be working very closely with this guy if he goes back to his old position, which will be open soonish. I have no worries about safety. This is still in the speculation stage, but it’d be too late to say anything when he actually comes back to work, right?, and I doubt I’d get a heads up.

    1. whistle*

      You say “charged” and not “convicted”. Was the person convicted?

      Either way, if convicted, they served their time and now need to get back to life, which means having a job. You say you are not concerned about safety. Let it drop.

      1. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

        He is currently out on bail. The robbery was in the spring.

        I wouldn’t have a problem with someone who had served their time, but this isn’t at that point yet.

        1. whistle*

          That does it make it trickier for me. I’m a firm believer that once someone has done what the courts have asked of them, we have to let them get back into life. However, this person has not yet received a verdict or a sentence. I can understand feeling weird about working next to someone who might still receive a guilty verdict and a hefty sentence for a violent act. In this case, I think it comes down to whether or not you feel safe, and since you say you feel safe, there is really nothing to say to your employer.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Unless you work in a bank or some other financial services position (which I assume would be unlikely to bring back someone convicted of robbery), I don’t understand what you’d even want to say? People who commit crimes are still human beings who need to support themselves. Especially so they aren’t tempted to re-offend.

      1. Lissa*

        Yeah, if you’re not worried about safety – what is it you’d want to say, and to who? I mean, presumably people know what happened already? agree with the rest of what Amy said too.

        1. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

          I don’t know what I want to say, or if I have standing to say it, that’s why I’m asking for advice.

          I guess it’s that, from reading between the lines, this coworker probably helped mug a random passerby for kicks and extra cash. And while my coworker was a friendly person, I do think about that poor passerby being robbed at gunpoint. Now I’m maybe going to be working with my coworker again?

          The whole situation is recent enough that I’m still moderately peeved about my work getting doubled for a few weeks because he was in jail.

          1. Lissa*

            Sure, I get that. I would say then, think about what it is you want to get out of the conversation – just to get off your chest that you don’t think they should have hired him? To ask not to work with him? To ask what is going on? I think whether you should say something, to who, and what, will depend on your goals.

      2. rear mech*

        how often do you have to be in close quarters with a person who threatened someone’s life with a gun? poor impulse control + willingness to violently threaten others = zero fscking boundaries = person I don’t feel safe around.

  112. Jennifer*

    I really liked this week’s burnout post. I am now just wondering what you would do if you were a manager and your employee came to you saying that the workload is just too large–but there’s nothing you can do about it. Upper management won’t hire anyone else, etc. We have all been cruising towards burnout for years. Nah, we’re already there. I am really good at juggling tons of things, but the drama levels escalate all the time and right now I have two huge projects that need to be done instantly, at the same time. I am burned out but I can’t get another job so I feel like literally my only option is to just keep swimming.

    I am planning on going on vacation when these two huge projects are done and I can leave, and I want to take two weeks, but I’m really afraid of how bad the workload is going to be if I am gone that long. I have no backup so the avalanche will be waiting for me. It’s already bad if I’m gone for one day. I normally only take vacation at the very end of the year because that’s the only time it’s quiet here, but I’m afraid I’m going to make my life even more hell for a month if I’m gone for two weeks since if you’re out for one day it takes about a day and a half just to clean up the drama. One week is already commtted to a long distance trip, but on the other week I want to visit someone that lives a few hours away and I could just try coming back for a few days before being out for the entire second week, just to make it slightly less bad on myself.

    Argh. I’m just so tired and there’s nothing that can be done. My therapist says she’ll put me on stress leave within 24 hours if I give the word, but then I’ll get less pay, still won’t be able to find another job and the avalanche will be even worse. I can’t see any reasonable options. And my boss is very sympathetic but there’s nothing that can be done about the lack of support from others there.

    1. Rex*

      I know when you’re really burned out, you don’t feel like you have time to look. But what if you just took a baby step here or there? Like, this week I will freshen up my resume and make it awesome. Next week I will just look at what’s out there, job wise. Maybe apply to one amazing job if I find it. Etc.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      In my last position, I was the only one filling a critical role that is normally handled by a team of three. I got totally burned out and made the mistake of saying so on a professional Facebook group I was in. Someone from my office saw my comment and reported it to my manager, who called me out on it. She basically said “This is the way it is, there’s nothing I can do” and generally made me feel really awkward.

      There wasn’t anything to be done except fill the other positions. I left the position because I knew it wouldn’t get much better; that boss was a workaholic and would never see an issue with the amount of work I was doing.

      1. Chaordic One*

        You did the right thing Lemon Zinger. So much better to quit than to have waited around like I did and ended up getting fired. It’s funny how they find thing to do, or money to hire two people to replace you with, after you’re gone.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      What would happen if you all just did less work? And if you’re challenged on it, said, point blank, that you’re burning out and can’t do it anymore.

      You can’t change the pile of tasks, you can’t get management to hire more people. So you options are to work yourself into illness (at which point you’ll be unemployed and too sick to work), to quit without a job lined up (at which point you’ll be unemployed and maybe unable to claim UI), or to forcibly take back a work life balance. If they fire you for not being able to do the work of three people, you’ll also be unemployed, but able to claim UI.

      A supportive boss could be helpful in backing you to upper management, if you warn her that you’re at the point of break down and need to step back. They can fire you (and have even fewer people to do the work while trying to hire and train someone new), but they can’t lock you in the building and force you to work 80 hour weeks.

      Also – could you take that two week vacation and spend it sleeping, eating healthy food, prepping your resume and submitting job applications?

  113. NewJobNow?*

    I’m looking to leave my job soon. My current job is my first job out of college and I will be hitting the two year mark at the end of this month. Part of my responsibilities is that I am in charge of coordinating our participation in a big conference at the end of October (we have a booth and a large number of staff attending/presenting. I work in comms/marketing and am only in charge of the booth and helping the presenters, not in logistical coordination of hotels/flights). I am expected to attend and man the booth. At this point, would it be bad form to start applying for jobs now, or should I wait until after the conference? I haven’t started much coordination at this point outside of booking the booth, and we have materials from last year for the actual booth set up, but one of my goals was to try to develop new marketing materials to give out.

    I am looking for several reasons, one of which is that I am underpaid and there has been an indefinite freeze on raises/promotions within the organization that might not resolve until the 2nd quarter of 2019. If it helps this is a non-profit communications job in the DC area and I would be looking for similar roles in the same area. Thanks!

    1. Jerry Vandesic*

      Look for a job, and if you get an offer take it if you like the job. Don’t worry too much about your employer. They are used to people coming and going, and wouldn’t hesitate to let you go if it was in their best interest. Don’t look back.

  114. Anon-mama*

    After many months of using this site’s advice, I finally landed a long-desired full-time job! Yay! But now my toddler is in daycare and picking up new germs. Boooo. Because I started so late in the year, I only have about 3 days PTO and maybe a total of 2-3 sick days accrued by December for myself. Already, in the first month, I had to take time to deal with a flat tire, my spouse had to take time when our child got a virus, and I had a cold for a week longer than I should have because I didn’t want to be so depleted of time before probation was even over. I can’t work from home at all, and my spouse has monthly deliverables that means if needed, it’d be much better for me to take those days off. We don’t really have family nearby to babysit in a pinch. So how do fellow parents deal with low PTO and taking care of a sick child? Would it be realistic to ask my boss for unpaid PTO if it looks like I’ll run out? Do on-call babysitting services exist? Thanks!

    1. Not So Super-visor*

      Talk to your boss! Most of managers/bosses understand that these things have a way of happening when you’re new and have little PTO. He/She might be able to offer a solution.

    2. Emmie*

      Spouse front loads work in preparation for potential time off. Spouse had work from home conversation with employer. Maybe look at an at home nanny situation where kid isn’t exposed to so many other sick kids. Check with medical insurance to see if they offer nurse on call sick care (very very rare, but I have seen it before.). I’m sorry you’re going through this. It sounds stressful.

  115. many bells down*

    I mentioned on another thread that I like my actual JOB – I teach speech and debate at a small private school – but not the place I’m doing it. The school is super disorganized and it’s become endlessly frustrating.

    For summer school, they told me I’d be doing 2-week sessions with approximately 10-12 kids. Well, I’ve never had more than 6 kids in a class, so that throws my timeline off considerably (it takes a lot longer for 10 kids to present than 4!), and it messes up some of my group activities. On top of that, they don’t enforce the 2-week sessions. So I have kids come in for 1 week, kids who start in the second week, etc. Over spring break, they wanted me to teach a public speaking class with ONE student. I pointed out that I kind of need a “public” for “public speaking.”

    So my contract ends in February, and I’m currently booked for classes through Thanksgiving. But I need surgery at the end of this year and I’ll be down for at least 4 weeks so I think that’s going to be my excuse not to renew my contract and to look for something else.

  116. Probably Nerdy*

    What is the etiquette when someone at a previous job dies? Do you send a card to their family or to your previous workplace?

    One of the C-suite at a job I had some years ago (loved it) died suddenly and prematurely. I obviously wasn’t terribly close to the person but they did give me some great career advice and I just want to reach out and honor them for it. The person’s obituary says to donate to a couple of pet charities but I am between jobs so don’t want to do that and it just seems so impersonal. Posting on social media seems kind of crass. I’m at a loss for what to do.

    1. whistle*

      I think a card to the next of kin (if you have that info) saying what the person meant to you would be really nice. If you do not have next of kin info, you could send it to previous workplace and request that they forward it to the family.

    2. Not So Super-visor*

      If you don’t know who the next of kin is, you can usually send a card to the funeral home. The family might find it very comforting if you were able to include a warm anecdote about their loved one. Example “I’ll always remember the valuable career guidance that Fred gave to me.”

    3. Lumen*

      It sounds like you are wanting to offer something personal to this person’s family to tell them that their loved one had a positive impact on your life. And in grief, sometimes it is a huge comfort to know that the person you lost mattered to others, too.

      So yes. Send a small handwritten card saying exactly that: that you want to honor them. That’s a lovely thing to do. Whistle and Not So give good advice about how to accomplish that.

    4. Wicked Witch of the West*

      When a former boss of mine died I sent two cards. One to the firm where he still worked and I still had contacts, and one for the firm to pass along to the family.

  117. PolarBearGirl*

    What interview questions would you ask to find out the ways in which a manager is bad?

    Quick context: I had a stupendous boss about 10 years ago. We work at different places now, but they are recruiting me to fill a great role for them in their current workplace. I could help the organization improve right away but would also be doing something a little different from what I’m doing now, which I’m ready for. Salary and job flexibility are all what I need. The wrinkle is that my grand-boss (whom I would have some interaction with, but not daily) has been described as “volatile.” I know people who have left this place because of the grand-boss, but others have stayed and made it work.

    I know it is a mistake to take a job just because of the boss, in case that person leaves, so I don’t want to do that even though my former boss is a super-star. I *would* like to figure out just what “volatile” means so I can decide ahead of time if it’s something I can put up with or not. I’d like to be able to do more than ask my former boss, “In what ways is this person a loon?”

    How can I get at some bad boss qualities with questions to other current staff? I don’t know if this means micromanaging, reversing opinions, yelling and stamping of feet, or what. The grand-boss also has a good reputation in the field as far as professional successes at places they have led, so I suspect it’s the kind of thing where it is sometimes hard to work for them yet satisfying to be part of what their team accomplishes. Suggestions??

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d gear your questions toward the positive aspects that are CRITICAL to you, then try to read between the lines or in the gaps.

      So things like:
      Do you feel like your ideas are valued even when they aren’t pursued?
      Do you feel like you get regular, helpful feedback on your performance?
      When Boss asks for improvement in a certain area, is it made clear? How is that communicated? When things are going well, how is that communicated?
      When your team is assigned a project, do you feel like you are given the resources and support to see that project through successfully?
      Are changes to projects communicated in a clear way? A timely way?
      What kind of personality traits and work habits will help a person succeed on this team? Why? (this is different than succeeding in the role itself – your trying to get at team dynamics with this one)

      Does that help? If you get alarming or even luke warm responses to some of these kind of questions, that will tell you a lot about the boss and the team dynamic, and help you decide if it’s somewhere you can work. You can also ask some culture questions to try to pin down how much Boss is negatively impacting the entire workplace.

    2. irene adler*

      How do you support your reports?
      Those that crack jokes at this question are managers who don’t take the concept seriously.

      How do you deliver criticism or feedback?

  118. Not So Super-visor*

    so Problem Employee (PE) and I have a long, drawn-out history. She doesn’t respect me and is rude to just about everyone. Grand Boss feels bad for her due to some of PE’s personal life problems and will not allow me (or anyone before me) to let her go. I get fed a sermon about showing charity to those in need rather than being allowed to handle legitimate performance issues. This just exaccerbates the problem. She is currently on her second Corrective Action of the year — one for yelling at a customer, the second for snapping her fingers in my face. HR agrees with me that if another outburst like that 2nd one occurs that they will go around Grand Boss and force the issue of termination. For her part, PE claims that she had no issues before I became the manager, ergo the problem is with me and not her. This isn’t really true — its more true that past managers were just worn down by Grand Boss and let bad behavior slide rather than dealing with it. Every time that I’ve talked to her about an issue, it is followed with multiple complaints about me to HR about how I purposely single her out. So far, I’ve been able to show that every one of those claims isn’t true or is comparing dis-similar issues (ie — someone waving me over to their cubicle to ask a question wasn’t the same thing as her snapping her fingers at me). I’m just feeling tired and worn-down over dealing with her performance issues and the fallout after I handle them.
    That leads to the current problem. The company standardized our email signatures earlier this year. To make sure that everyone was in compliance, I asked everyone to email me with their signature in the email by the end of the day. In her typical style, PE didn’t send me an email. The next day, I reminded her. It took about 6 different emails from her to get the email signature correct. Marketing had created a template and all she needed to do was insert her name, title, office, and phone number, but every time that she sent it back information was either wrong or left completely off (it took until the very last one for her to incldue her direct phone number). She then complained to HR that I had threatened to fire her over an email signature and that I was a micro-manager and the whole thing was ridiculous. As per usual, I was able to produce the entire email thread where I never threatened her and just kept telling her what was incorrect and what it needed to be changed to. This was about 2 months ago. Another employee just brought it to my attention that now PE is just not including any email signature when she responds to customers; she doesn’t even type her name. It’s causing a lot of confusion when she responds to threads or from a shared service request inbox.
    This just seems so silly. The part of me that is feeling worn-down by dealing with this wants to just ignore the whole thing, but I know that I can’t or everyone will start doing this. Any suggestions for how to make this less of a showdown about something that should be a standard business practice?

    1. Snark*

      Honestly? I think you need to make this a showdown. Strap on your six gun and head down to the saloon at high noon, because this is so very worth going to the mat over.

      (Wow, I just mixed some very weird metaphors)

    2. PolarBearGirl*

      Oh, man. I feel for you. Remember that she is the one making it a showdown. Can you start by going to HR to say, “Hey, PE’s email is apparently a thing again. I plan to remind PE that it is policy to include an email signature on all external communication.” It sounds like she is just looking for ways to either see what she can get away with or to make you look like the jerk for getting upset about something “petty.” I know you said HR is waiting for an “outburst” to go around your boss to fire PE, but can they use a “pattern of nonsense” or whatever the official term is for this instead?

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Oh, I like this. Prep HR whenever you are going to correct her about anything. That way YOUR narrative of what’s going on is already in place, and you’re not having to fight against whatever way she’s spinning. Then just keep handling things as you normally do – fair, leve headed, straight forward, and documented.

        I’d give that alert as an email, outline the issue plus how and when you’re planning to handle it/have the convo. You don’t need a point by point plan or anything, and you’re not looking for HR to sign off before proceeding. You can just let them know, “given that PE has responded poorly to similar conversations in the past, I wanted to loop you guys in on the front end this time instead of after the fact.”

    3. LCL*

      PE is forcing the showdown, not you. Remind her of the policy by email, so you have a paper trail. If she is foolish enough to go to HR with this, well, they are on your side so your battle is half won already. Just make sure you don’t talk to her outside of work, you want witnesses when she loses her grip and starts yelling at you.

    4. Kathenus*

      This is why these horrible employees keep their jobs, they use the system – or people like the grandboss – and wear down the managers who try to, you know, manage them. As everyone else has said she’s the one pushing for the showdown. As hard as it is, try to hold the line with her and don’t let her wear you down to where you stop dealing with the inappropriate behavior. It sucks, it should have been done by others long ago, but huge kudos to you for stepping up. I had HR tell me in a similar situation years ago that the goal was to ‘manage them up, or manage them out’. It’s her choice – either her performance improves and she stays; or she keeps pushing the line and eventually she goes too far and is gone. Great work so far, stay strong and good luck.

    5. Bluesboy*

      Been there, I had an employee who had spent five years in slavery, which HR and a select few knew about. Result was that anything she did seemed (and was) trivial in relation to that, which meant she got away with basically anything.

      Obviously I felt sorry for her…but I also had to do my job, and having someone who basically wouldn’t do their job, was deliberately obstructive (she would hide other people’s work to make them unable to do their job properly). But HR wouldn’t let me fire her.

      In the end, I left, not just because of this problem but due to a wider issue of not feeling supported by management (and this was a good example of it). A month after I left she was fired – I was replaced by a good friend of the CEO and he just insisted with a direct line to the top that I didn’t have.

      I would love to offer you a solution, but there isn’t one. I tried begging, threatening her job (toothless) treating her better than colleagues, everything I could think of. Just make sure you document EVERYTHING, and try to make sure her colleagues don’t suffer and then start to resent both her AND you for treating you differently. Morale suffers, and the problem just gets wider. I hope this works out for you.

  119. Anon2018*

    I’ve been in my current position for 10 months. Just found out yesterday that two new positions will be opened up one step above me. This would be a stretch job but not unmanageable. Dept. head encouraged anyone interested to apply. Is it tone deaf to apply when I’ve not even been here a year? I have almost nine years experience in the same field but am hesitant to apply if it would seem out of touch.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Could you bounce this off anyone senior you’d trust there, or a mentor in the office, and see what they think? This kind of thing varies by office, I believe.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      This is so dependent on where you work. I would reach out to a person you trust there and just ask. Someone with a better lay of the land would know if this was super odd or not.

    3. Queen of Cans and Jars*

      Check with HR/your handbook. The company may have a policy in place that restricts when you can apply for promotions. If you’re close to whatever that limit is, or there isn’t a policy, I’d ask the dept head what they think about you applying since you’re a newer employee.

  120. Anon for Offer Question*

    I received an offer Thursday morning (yesterday) and have been pressured to give an answer by end of day Friday. This is a complicated offer with a lot to consider, and I have been working very long hours at my current job. I’m not certain it’s a better offer without taking some time to consider it, at least the weekend. My inclination is to just say no. Any suggestions?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think your inclination should be to ask for more time. 24 hours is reasonable, but so is 72 hours. If you push back with needing 72 hours, and they bristle, consider that a red flag. Taking a job is a major life decision, and if they pressure you to make it quickly, that’s indicative of a toxic work culture you’ll have to deal with if you take the job.

      2. From a Recruiting Professional*

        Totally agree with ‘Anonymous Educator’. I worked with a hiring manager/BigBoss at a little TeaPot company recently that had very low “offer acceptance rate”. Why? He would pressure the recruiter(s) and agencies to make the candidates to accept the offer within an hour. In reality, he was one of the worst leaders who I have worked with and did not understand why candidates need time to think about this major decision. There’s a big turn-over. So, like ‘Anonymous Educator’ stated, “that’s indicative of a toxic work culture”.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I agree with Anonymous Educator. Plus asking to be able to give them an answer Monday gives you an entire weekend to review and think this over, and barely sets them back a single business day. If they push back on that, it’s pretty unreasonable on their part.

    3. Jan Levinson*

      Have you asked to be given the weekend to make a decision? If you have and are still getting pressured, that’s a red flag in my opinion (which would make me inclined to decline the offer). It’s very, very common to be given the weekend to decide when you receive an offer late in the week.

      I was once in a similar situation; a recruiter called with a job offer, and told me I would be given 24 hours to decide. The offer came on a Thursday morning, and the recruiter wanted to know by 8:00 A.M. on Friday. I already had another job offer pending, and asked her if I could use the weekend to decide. Although super pleasant up until this point, she immediately when on the defense and asked, “Why? What could possibly take you that long to decide?” I told her I needed to weigh my options in order to make a decision that made the most sense for me. She then asked, “Do you have another job offer? You didn’t even mention that before. That sure would have been nice to know.” I ended up declining the offer right then and there on the phone.

      1. Anon for Offer Question*

        Yes, I got pushback on asking for the weekend. I think that an offer with this many moving parts requires a few hours with a spreadsheet at least, so I can do a proper comparison to my current job.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I got an offer the day I did the in person interview. The HR rep needed an answer by 24 hours since if I turned it down, she wanted to get the offer to the next choice. It was a decent offer but that gave me no room for negotiating. The holidays were coming up, I would have had almost no vacation, and I didn’t like the pressure she put on me so I turned it down. Nine months later they have two people doing the job of at least three FTEs (in the interview, I was told they’d be hiring a third person within a month; to date that position has not been posted), and I would have been that second person.

      My impression is that if there’s pressure to take the offer ASAP, you are probably walking into an overload situation.

      1. Anon for Offer Question*

        I think you are right. I’m pretty sure it is an overload situation, so my next battle would be a reasonable start date even if I did take the offer.

  121. Jan Levinson*

    This is probably petty, but it’s more the principle of the thing that bugs me.

    Yesterday, I emailed out a lunch menu for Restaurant X (where we often order from for staff meetings) to everyone in our office, asking them to please let me know what they would like to eat for a sales meeting we have next week. Soon after, my boss, Fred, received an email from his boss, Al (who works in an office an hour away), telling him that he would be coming to our office’s staff meeting next week. Fred asked Al if he would like to join for lunch, to which Al responded that he would. Fred proceeds to forward the email conversation between he and Al to me (CC’ing Al) and says, “Jan, please send Al the lunch menu.” I had JUST sent everyone in the office the lunch menu 5 or 10 minutes prior. It just kind of irked me that Fred had to ask me to send Al the menu, instead of just forwarding the email with the menu that I’d already sent to him.

    (For what it’s worth, I’m also a woman and by far the youngest person in my office. I feel like that’s part of the reason why I’ve become the unofficial lunch order-er, as it has nothing to do with my job.)

    1. Snark*

      I would just cheerfully opt out of that next time. “Oh, sorry, I did that last time. Fred, you mind taking care of that? Thanks, you’re a dear.”

    2. Victoria, Please*

      I agree with Snark to opt out next time, 1000%, although since Fred is the boss maybe don’t tell him to do it but to delegate it.

      I think Fred was trying not to make a mess this time actually — it’s best to very clearly have only one point person and if Fred had forwarded the menu to Al, then Al would have returned his order to Fred, and the opportunities for missing something go up fast. But then I am well known for being unreasonably tolerant, so maybe Fred WAS being a bossjerk chauvinist, you’d know better.

      2. Lizardbreath*

        I would NEVER tell my boss to “please take care of it” themself when it comes to taking a food order. Snark’s recommendation is really tone deaf.

    4. CAA*

      I actually don’t find this particular case unreasonable. You need Al’s lunch order so you can combine it with everyone else’s and place the order. If Fred had sent Al the lunch menu, there’s a 50/50 chance that Al would then send Fred his order and Fred would either not see it or forget to forward it. Then you’d be chasing things down at the last minute or else end up with no lunch for Al. Fred is your boss. He was letting Al know that you were the person who was already carrying out the task and letting you know that he needed you to extend the task you were already doing to include Al. As your boss, he’s allowed to do that.

      For the next time, if the lunch ordering is truly unofficial in that nobody asks or tells you to do it, just don’t do it. Wait and let someone else handle it. If anybody other than Fred asks about it, you can just say “Oh, that’s just something I volunteered to do a couple of times. I’m not able to do it this time, so why don’t you go ahead?” If Fred asks you to do it, then you need to decide whether to ask if he can rotate the lunch duty among everyone on the team; but as the most junior member, it may still be your job until they hire someone more junior than you.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I understand your point about the lunch orders. Fred is forgetful, and there is definitely a chance he could have forgotten to forward Al’s order to me, had Al sent his order directly to Fred.

        However, as far as ordering lunch, I am not the most junior person in the office – I am the youngest, however, there is a male reception/admin assistant who started two years after I did (1 year vs. 3 years), and is in a more junior role. It’s also not something I have just volunteered for; Fred has always come to me asking me to order lunch. Before I started, another woman (who has been here 11 years) ordered the lunches (she was also not the most junior person in the office, but the only other woman who is in the office full time).

        1. CAA*

          Your last paragraph adds more context and I see I made some wrong assumptions. If your boss is asking you to do this, then he’s really making you the official lunch orderer. I think it’s completely reasonable to point out to Fred that always assigning that job to women is really not o.k. in the 21st century and you’d like for him to hand this task off to the reception/admin person in the future. I’d probably have that conversation during a regular one-on-one meeting rather than waiting for the next lunch order to happen.

  122. JustaTech*

    TL;DR How do I convince my upper management that women’s work activities are OK?

    A few months back my coworker organized “girl’s lunch” for the women in our department (made up of 3-4 groups). (No, I don’t like the name “girl’s lunch” but I didn’t organize it.) We went out to the place down the street, had a nice chat about stuff, and paid our own way. No big deal.

    Then it comes out in the social committee meeting that the most senior woman to go to lunch got a really hard time about it from the rest of the senior people in our department (all men). That feels really unreasonable to me (because most of the leadership meetings are men-only).

    It came up because our HR person (a woman) suggested to the social committee (almost all women) that we should have some kind of Women’s Development group (where we would presumably read Lean In or something). Is that a reasonable thing to do? (There is only one woman in the C-suite, and she’s not in my department, so to me it feels like we could use some thoughtful effort to advance women.)

    And if it is reasonable, how should we go about presenting it to the heads of our department (who are all men)? It’s not like we can say “have you looked at the leadership of this department? It’s a total sausage-fest!”

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      My bigger question would be- Is this actually okay? Because gendered activities are often problematic at workplaces.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Companies that really support diversity often have multiple employee resource groups — women, underrepresented minorities, veterans, LGBTQ, etc. If the women want to start something, any of the other groups can start something, too.

        2. Lissa*

          I disagree. This isn’t splitting the groups into men and women for activities, this is a lunch for a traditionally underrepresented group, and it sounds here, a needed one if the leadership is all men but one. I don’t think the existence of nonbinary people means we can no longer have groups specifically designed to support women.

      2. C*

        I think it can be okay. The law firm I’m about to start working at does have a women’s development group and since they have a huge employment law group I would assume they wouldn’t do it if it was problematic. The group’s two big roles are offering partner mentors to older associates who are starting to get close to the partner process and networking events targeted at female-run businesses who might be hesitant to work with a stereotypically older white male firm. I think the key thing is that it’s not a social group and it’s not female-exclusive; I went to a meeting as a summer and while it was majority women, there were a good amount of men there.

      3. Mike C.*

        It’s perfectly fine. It completely lacks the power imbalance that a “dude’s trip to the golf club/strip club” entails, and this is an employee-organized event.

        The guys frankly need to STFU.

    2. PolarBearGirl*

      Activities at work that seek to develop skills and networks for traditionally under-represented groups are very valuable for the individuals involved, for the workplace, and for the industry. It seems your HR leader is a good ally here to supply you with the documented reasons why a company might want to promote such activities and to help you outline in neutral terms the history of how organizations and social outlets that cater primarily to men have the result of keeping others out, to their detriment, while the kinds of groups you describe help build others up without penalizing men. I feel like there was just a good AAM letter response and comment thread about this – maybe the male worker who wanted to organize some outings and just happened to only want to include his male colleagues?

    3. AnotherAlison*

      There is no shortage of literature on advancing women in male-dominated organizations. Employee Resource Groups specifically for women are one solution often presented in the study, and in general these are best when combined with other initiatives for advancing women. My company has gone through this process over the last 3 years. It started with the most senior women in one division approaching a few of our division executives, and the executives giving them a green light to do some “grass roots” focus groups, etc. We ended up building a self-supporting women’s ERG in our division (i.e. no company-sponsorship or funds), and then corporate got involved and appointed someone in corporate HR to work on a women’s initiative for the whole company.

      You’ll get pushback from some leaders, and you’ll get snarky comments from some men along the lines of “why isn’t there a men’s group” and worse, but if you have some women who believe in doing it, start researching and go for it. How else will we change things? (Also, FWIW, I work for in the engineering and construction field in a company that’s around 150 yrs old. This is a huge culture shift for us, but we have someone at the COO level who supports it, where previous leadership tolerated us ladies working here, but we had to go along with the way things were.)

      2. AnotherAlison*

        I should also add that men are not excluded from our group and policies implemented are for everyone (modifications to leave, flex time, and things like that). Sometimes we have activities and ask the group members to bring a man that they work with so we can share our perspective with them and hear their opinions on women’s issues.

    4. Lumen*

      I think an organized development group is different from a ‘gal’s lunch’. One is specifically to address the need to advance women in your workplace when there is currently no gender parity in leadership. (The other is social exclusion by gender, and that’s a lot dicier in my opinion.)

      Honestly, it may be worth it to come up with some polite versions of the following questions if you get pushback: do the men in leadership not want to be excluded from the Women’s Development Group (where they could learn a lot about the challenges women face in career advancement in traditionally male-led companies)? Do they want a Men’s Development Group (for what purpose)? Are they opposed to women developing their careers in that company?

      I think if your group makes an effort to welcome any trans or non-binary individuals who may work at your company (if they are out, and if they feel safe doing so/wish to join), that would also be nice. Because the truth is, the gender imbalance in leadership isn’t that men outnumber women: it’s that men outnumber EVERY gender.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Hmm, somebody at my old job told me you couldn’t have a group that explicitly forbid men, but you could have a group called “women’s lunch” that was explicitly about networking for women. If men wanted to come to that, fine, they couldn’t be prevented. (We didn’t have any men who wanted to come). However, this was government, which I’m sure always has its own weird rules.

      2. Pollygrammer*

        I agree with this. Gender-based professional development is one thing, but gender-based socialization is another.

    5. The Person from the Resume*

      It is generally accepted that an underrepresented group can hold an underrepresented group only event because they have historically suffered discrimination and this is countering it in some way – providing support (like the lunch), providing actionable suggestions (development group), etc.

      You can do woman’s only events; you cannot do men only because that perpetuates the historical exclusion of women.

      You can’t do whites only event; You can do minority only events. Etc.

    6. JustaTech*

      Thank you all!

      I think from now on we’ll try to have a real Women’s development group across all departments, and not any more gender-segregated social activities. I wish we would have other groups as well, but at this location we’re just not very diverse (sigh). Although maybe once we advertise a women’s group other people will ask for other groups.

  123. I am definitely okay*

    How do you guys deal with the uncertainty of work security?
    Recently I heard rumors that layoffs are coming. I am dreadfully scared that I might be out of a job soon. I had applied in several places, but as they are all government related, responses are slow in coming.
    For all I know, it might just be unsubstantiated rumors, but without any concrete announcements, I spend my days both scared about my future plans (I had previously planned to go home for the holidays and have even purchased tickets) and uncertain if I should commit to my work if I am only going to get laid off soon. Is there anyway to help address my own anxiety and avoid letting this become a self fulfilling prophecy?

    1. Chaordic One*

      Well, you’ve got applications out already, so that’s a good start. Otherwise, you might just follow the traditional advice about making sure to have copies of documents from your computer at work, perhaps on a thumb drive. You might also want to do a pre-cleaning out of your office, removing personal items and things you want to take with you, if you do end up having to leave.

      Otherwise, try to have some money saved up and don’t make large financial committments. It’s probably not a good time to run up your line of credit on your credit cards, or to buy a new car, or to take out a mortgage.

  124. Victoria, Please*

    Huh. Nothing like pretty much being told you are incompetent, a chump, and a shill for Management. Apparently, around here, if you are doing a good job, it’s because you’re a suck-up. If you were a *real* member of the community, you’d be outraged and resisting.

    TGIF, I guess?

    1. Havarti*

      Ah yes, the classic “if you’re not with us, you’re against us.” No, no, it’s just that I happen to like getting this thing called “money.” I’m going to at least pretend to be loyal to the person who signs my time sheet.

    2. Lissa*

      Ugh, sorry that happened to you. I had something similar happen to me in an old job – it was a coworker I had previously had a good rapport with and thought we were friendly, who out of the blue accused me of all those things because I was polite/friendly to the owner’s wife, who she hated.

      It was pretty upsetting.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I’m the person who keeps things civil even with the junkyard dog – or people that EVERYONE agrees to hate in the office…well, that person and I will get along just fine. I don’t take things personally and I don’t get upset (at work, or visibly anyway…at home…might be a different matter.).

        I am also a firm believer in the whole attitude of “You never know what’s going on inside someone’s head, their office, or their home.” Some people are out-and-out buttheads, and I get that, but otherwise, folks have stuff going on, all the time, that maybe you’re not privy to and maybe THAT’S why Wakeen is always sighing and annoyed when you ask him to fix the thing that’s broken. He drags his feet, he huffs and puffs, he makes you feel like just ASKING him to do his JOB is a major annoyance but eh, you treat him cordially like everyone else.

        Imaginary scenario: It turns out Wakeen has a very sick child who requires round-the-clock care, and nurses, and meds, and machinery. Insurance is denying claims left and right, his family is hurting for money, his wife just got laid off, and she has the better insurance. No one knows this because Wakeen is super private, but one day you catch him with a genuine, “Dude, seriously, are you OK?” and he breaks down and tells you everything and then says, “No one has ever asked me if I’m OK.” Wakeen and I go on to have a reasonably friendly work relationship after that, he’s always happy to help me, and everything is good in our interactions. (A somewhat similar scenario happened to me, and isn’t to illustrate what a great person I am, but how little we can know about folks’ private lives.)

        Failing those dramatics, I’ve honestly never understood the whole “Person X is the enemy and if you’re cordial, polite, and professional to them, YOU are the enemy too!” Even though I’ve made a good practice of being cordial, polite, and professional with everyone.

        Partly, I think, because I’m an exec assistant and there’s a certain amount of thick-skinned emotional elasticity required (especially with irascible C-suite bosses), and partly because it’s just a generally good idea to stay on civil terms with everyone, even if they’re rude, or they’re stupid, or hey’re annoying, or don’t do their job, or do That Thing With Their Gum, or whatever.

    3. Lumen*

      Oh yay, ideological purity tests. *eyeroll*

      I had a coworker once blow up at me, write me off, and spend the next few years undermining and attacking me every way she could… because I didn’t get mad enough at a colleague from IT when his fix for our problem made it (temporarily) worse.

      Yes. Seriously.

      I wanted to give him a chance to fix it without screaming at him or demanding he undo everything (taking us back to the original problem), so I wasn’t being ‘supportive’ enough of her. So she stormed out of the office crying and didn’t come back for hours (meaning she wasn’t there to cover my lunch break, which she was supposed to). For at least two weeks after she would not speak to me or look me in the eye, and after that I was her nemesis.

      Did she get fired? Oh of course not. She was promoted, put in an office, given a team of 5 people to manage, and I was given a talking-to about our bad relationship.

      If only I’d been outraged when some asshole told me to be.

  125. KatieKate*

    Has anyone worked with a career coach? Was it helpful? I’m in my mid 20s and on my second job, and I have no idea if I want to stay in the same field (non profit) or even how to figure what I want to do next. If you have spoken to someone helpful, how did you find them? Thanks!

  126. Duffman*

    So on Monday I’m handing in my notice, but I’ve honestly never had to resign (I’ve been laid off) so I’m pretty nervous about it.

    I was given an opportunity to work in the field I’ve been getting my graduate degree in – it was possible to do both because the new job’s shifts were short and after my hourly job ended. My current job told me I couldn’t do it because I would be sharing my focus with another job (there’s no conflict of interest. These are entirely different fields – think teapots versus teaching monkeys to write Shakespeare).

    I decided it was more important to do the other job. I have very specific goals and this is the next logical step. My work previously has been supportive so this came out of the blue and came after I had already committed to the new job (because after hours and in an unrelated field I didn’t imagine they would make it an issue and it only came up in casual conversation because I thought it would be weird to not let my boss know I would be working after hours).

    I’m worried it’s going to be seen as me being contentious or insubordinate. I’m giving four weeks notice instead of two so that I can give time for people to take over my job duties and cover some vacations but I still feel like it’s going to be held against me.

    1. Snark*

      I think you should approach this pretty straightforwardly. You don’t need to explain why or make a case.

      “Bossman,

      This is to notify you that I intend to resign my position effective DATE to pursue other opportunities. I am planning a four-week notice period to provide for a smooth transition of duties. Let’s set up a meeting at your earliest convenience to discuss particulars. It’s been a pleasure working with you and I thank you for the opportunity.

      Best,
      Duffman”

      Or something like that.

      1. CAA*

        Resign in person first. Then send this email as a follow up. I agree with Snark. Don’t explain why. There is no need to give a reason. Just keep it simple and give them your end date.

        For future reference, there are many professional jobs that would frown on you working a side gig. It’s less common now, but in my first few jobs every employee handbook had something about providing 100% of your work effort to the company and requiring management permission before taking additional paid work.

    2. Havarti*

      People leave jobs all the time. It’s not your problem if they get upset. Life goes on and they’ll muddle their way through. It’s not contentious or insubordinate when they’re making you choose between the two jobs anyway. You got to look out for #1 here: yourself. So pick the job you actually want.

      Though two things – did your current job require you to be available after hours? If not, make a note not to mention you have a 2nd job if it happens again in the future. People work 2 jobs often and provided you can work the hours needed and there’s no conflict, it’s no business of theirs what you do (someone correct me if I’m wrong though!). So I think they’re being petty here unless your job performance has suffered.

      That leads me to the second thing. 4 weeks is very generous. Too generous probably. So don’t be surprised if they make your life a living hell for 4 weeks or if they let you go on Monday. Just be prepared and good luck!

      1. Snark*

        Yeah, I’d just go with the standard two unless there’s some incredibly technical thing you need to teach your replacement or something.

  127. Youth*

    Just looking for a little encouragement and rah-rah. Pretty much everything in my life has been going really terribly for about a year, and I’m incredibly burned out. My work hasn’t slipped, but my attitude has significantly deteriorated, and I cry at my desk a lot.

      1. Youth*

        Thanks! I try! I’m getting dinner at an international food and dance festival tonight. My hometown is tiny, so I love that they put this on, and I look forward to it every year.

    2. Elisabeth*

      I just want you to know you’re not alone there. I frequently take my 5 minutes in a bathroom stall to either cry to take a big breath. I’m getting out of a bad situation for myself and into something (hopefully) better. But I also had to give in and contact my EAP benefits about free therapy for the time being.

      I hope things get better and please try to do even the smallest amount of self-care.

      1. Lumen*

        It is so impressive to me that you took that step, Elisabeth. Many, many people hold out longer than they need to (or forever). It’s hard to ask for help, but you did something difficult in order to take care of yourself. I hope you take a moment to be proud of yourself for that.

        Keep breathing.

    3. Lumen*

      You will get through this. You’re not suffering in silence – you’re reaching out to people who get it, who have been where you’ve been, and asking for help and encouragement. That alone tells me that you’ve got the emotional wherewithal to take care of yourself as you go through this. So many of us have been there or are there now; you are not alone.

      That said: even though the things you’re going through are temporary, it can still take a toll. Whatever you can do to help your energy levels and mindset, prioritize it. It is not selfish or morally suspect in any way to put yourself first. You deserve to feel okay and your body deserves to be taken care of.

      I hope things get better for you.

      1. Youth*

        Wow, that’s really nice! One compounding problem is that on my worst days, I often feel like I CAN’T take care of myself, and that just makes me feel worse about everything. It’s so refreshing to hear someone say otherwise.

    4. ChaufferMeChaufferYou*

      You can do it! Things are hard now, and they probably won’t be later.

      I’ve been going through a cry-at-my-desk spell lately as well, so I sympathize.

    5. Kat in VA*

      Swinging random internet stranger hugs your way, if you’d like them (if not, I understand).

      I’ve been where you’re at. It does get better. Sometimes it takes a long time, way longer than we’d like, but it will eventually get better.

      “That which doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” rah rah, I know, it’s tired and cliched but there is truth to it.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Oh NO, that was supposed to say “slinging” not “swinging”.

        I’m not sending multiple-partner internet hugs your way.

        I mean, if swinging *is* your thing, I’m totally cool with that, but I meant to say “slinging” like I was pitching hugs at you as fast as I could, and I believe this is going to get even more embarrassing if I keep explaining…so I’ll just saying I meant to type SLINGING.

        1. Youth*

          No, no, when I read, “swinging,” I initially pictured you aggressively hitting hugs at me with a baseball bat or something! It didn’t seem weird at all, and it’s much appreciated.

          1. Kat in VA*

            Oh lord, not the AGGRESSIVE INCOMING BARRAGE OF UNWANTED INTERNET HUGS.

            *pew pew pew*

            I hope I made you smile with my typing gaffe, at least.

            On a (very) personal note…

            I was in a very, very deep dark hole a few years back. I had broken my neck during a snowboarding accident, and it reacted by growing a giant knob of bone that no one could tell if it was bone or a tumor. Ortho doctors was afraid to see me, cancer doctors didn’t want to deal with me, no one would treat me, and I was in constant pain. My husband had been out of work for nearly 16 months and wasn’t finding a bite anywhere. We were on Medicaid, which didn’t help because it narrowed down the list of spine specialists I could see for Second Kat™ growing out of my neck.

            We were in danger of losing our house, our car, and everything we’d worked for… and could see no way out. I was also homeschooling four children and battling the deepest, darkest depression of my life. I seriously pondered, upon waking every morning, if today was going to be the day I would take a walk into the Idaho woods with my pistol and just make it easier for everyone because my fractured reasoning deduced they’d all be better without the drooping, moping, miserable sad person that used to be their mom and their wife.

            I pulled out of it. Husband got a job, I got several surgeries (which haven’t helped but I get by), we moved across the country…and life is better now that it’s ever been.

            I’m sharing all of this TMI because I want you to know that it *does* get better, even if it seems like every day is a lather, rinse, and repeat of the gray misery that threatens to swallow you whole.

            *hugs again*

            1. Youth*

              Well now I really am crying at my desk!

              I’m familiar with some of those feelings, even though my struggles haven’t reached that magnitude. I really appreciate hearing that things got better. The real problem isn’t the problems themselves; it’s that I have no way of knowing when or if I’ll reach the other side.

              1. Kat in VA*

                Oh, no, I didn’t want to make you cry! I was trying for “uplifting”!

                I have terrible issues with unknown outcomes – I’m fine dealing with adversity when I know it has a beginning, middle, and end.

                Like, “OK, I have to get my license renewed at the DMV. I will not be here for longer than 8 hours, so anything under that is pretty much a bonus.” I know that I will not be stuck in the DMV, eating lunch in those uncomfortable chairs, listening to people rage around me, having to use the horror show bathrooms, and never knowing when it will stop. It will stop. It may take an unconscionable amount of time out of my day, but it’s an event that will have an end.

                But more open-ended issues like, “I am at a terrible job and have three feelers out there but I have no idea when or if they will even call me, and I may be stuck here until the end of time” are far harder to deal with because it feels like there’s no end in sight. THAT can be crazy-making.

                But in all honesty, things do work out well in the end a ridiculous amount of the time. It’s harder to appreciate that sentiment when you’re in the thick of it. Stay strong, friend!

  128. Queen of Cans and Jars*

    Has anyone out there made the jump into entrepreneurship, particularly a retail or food business? My husband and I are considering opening a retail business in our small town. The mayor and city council REALLY want this type of business in our town and are committed to helping us get it off the ground, and we’ve been working with a business adviser who has helped us see that yes, we could make a living at it if one of us kept our job. While my husband has the deeper knowledge of the product we’d be selling and is an unremitting extrovert, he’s the one with better pay & benefits, so running the business will fall to me. I’m excited for the challenge even if it puts me out of my comfort zone. However, despite all signs pointing to ‘yes,’ we are super nervous about taking the plunge. Both of us are really financially conservative side, which is part of what has put us in a position to go into this venture, but is also making us reluctant to do it. Any advice?

    1. MeowYorker*

      Have you or your husband worked in the particular industry in a similar setting? My husband is interested in opening up a food business, and while I’m supportive in theory, I told him that he’d need to work in a setting similar to what he envisions before I’d even consider taking the plunge. It sounds like maybe your husband has done his homework already, but if neither of you has the actual experience of running (or at least working closely for/with someone who runs) a similar small business, I’d definitely start there, even if that means one of you has to work for a much lower salary than you’re pulling right now. (I’m also financially conservative, so I totally hear you on that one!)

  129. Gayzed and Confuse*

    I’ve posted under other names here, but I was hoping for some advice on how to handle a sticky point on my background check/resume. I was at a job for only six months. The reasons for leaving were as follows:
    1) They were extensively unsupportive when my step-daughter was hospitalized with open heart surgery and for an extra two weeks subsequent for an infection. There was a deadline looming on a project that was a year over due, was started before I came in, and was the property of someone who had recently left. 3 days before step-daughter was released from the hospital and I had not been there for her or my wife, I was told not to worry about the project it wasn’t going to happen.

    2) Almost simultaneously, the Company Christmas party rolled around and a few well-meaning co-workers, also LGBTQ+ let me know quietly and respectfully that they also were not bringing their partners to the party (even though spouses are invited) because one of the Head Bosses over the entire department is openly, vocally, and knowingly homophobic and it could hurt my career to be there.

    3) Two months later, when a ton of turnover had happened, Apparently Homophobic Head Boss asked what it would take to keep me there. I gave some actionable items: I would like to keep most of the clients I worked on for easiness for the client and myself, but I would also really like to be given Projects B & C because that was one of the two main reasons I joined Teapots, Inc. I was reassured they would absolutely work with me and they remembered that from the hiring process. I get my yearly schedule and Projects B & C were given to people hired months after I came on board and the Head Boss nor my Direct Boss bothered to reach out to me with any sort of reasons or explanations. After being reassured that they would work with me and asking what it would take to keep me and having this completely ignored and not followed up on, I made the decision to take another job offer on the table.

    My question is: was this an unreasonable response from me? My parents have warned me that I have not only a short temper but a raze the earth style of coping (I don’t rage out or get angry, I just quietly dissociate myself from the situation and am really detached and cold if it comes up again). But I feel like being told my personal life would affect my promotions and to have my wishes (especially as they were knowingly WHY I came to Teapots, Inc.) ignored as they were trying to keep me are good reasons for being willing to look elsewhere.

    I also have no idea how to frame this on a job interview level or when a new boss would ask me about my time there. It was extremely unproductive and unpleasant.

    Any tips would be SO appreciated.

    1. Havarti*

      Safest thing to go with is something about how the projects you discussed during your interview that ultimately made you go ahead with the job offer never materialized. Teapots, Inc. isn’t a good fit for you for many reasons, but the job being different than you were told is going to be more universally understood and accepted. I don’t think your request was unreasonable. They asked and you answered. Go forth and job hunt! Hopefully you find a place that’s not full of homophobic bosses. Also, I hope your step-daughter is doing well. Good luck!

    2. Colette*

      Have you had other, long term jobs?

      Frankly, #2 is a non-issue. I mean, of course it’s not right, but quitting a job after six months will hurt your career as much or more than either bringing your spouse knowing the head boss disapproves or by sucking it up and going to the party alone. (You shouldn’t have to do either, of course, but I can’t make Head Boss a decent person.)

      #1 is a legitimate complaint – but quitting after the fact doesn’t really solve it? Quitting when you were told you had to work would have been more understandable, and easier to explain.

      And #3 is annoying, but not necessarily worth quitting over if you need to build a history of stability. If your last two jobs were 5 years each, sure, but if you have a history of short-term jobs, that would be a situation to accept and keep plugging away until you’d been there longer. There are plenty of times when projects you’d like will be given to other people. Did you ask what happened?

      As far as a job interview, I’d focus on something like “the work I’d joined Teapots, Inc. to do ended up not materializing”.

      But in the bigger picture, it might be worth honestly evaluating your life, and maybe trying some counselling. If you stick with jobs/organizations/relationships etc. for the long (or at least medium) haul, maybe there’s nothing to do – but if you want to leave at the first sign of trouble (i.e. when you can’t do what you want), that’s something worth working on. There are no perfect jobs or companies out there.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Simply say “I took the job at Teapots Inc specifically to work on Teapot Glazing Improvements, but after six months I still was not assigned to that work, so I left to take opportunity that would let me work on glazing improvements.” All the other stuff is nobody’s business. As to whether leaving was reasonable, it is hard to tell. It is clear it wasn’t a great place to work, and the failure to get the projects you wanted was insult to injury. If you made a habit out of it, that would be a problem — stuff just sometimes doesn’t work out quite right, but this once it is probably fine.

      1. Elisabeth*

        Yes, I’ve never just quit outright before. I had a super long tenure at my first workplace (over six years, starting from when I was a teenager). And then had sufficiently lengthy stays at other companies. I was really excited about this because it was my first chance to touch this typing of glazing and then … I was completely cut out of the reason I came.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      So this is only one job that you left after six months? And you left because you had another offer? No, I don’t think that should be a problem, if the rest of your jobs haven’t been short-term. And I’d concentrate on #3 to explain why I left so quickly – I was told I’d be working on B&C, which is why I took the job, and when it became clear that would never happen, I moved on.

    5. Pollygrammer*

      I have some issues with numbers 1 and 2. For #1, it sounds like you were working on a project when you would have preferred to be with your family and the project ultimately fell through. Is that right? This sounds like a case of sunk cost. Certainly frustrating, and maybe demonstrative of disorganization, but these things happen. They weren’t maliciously wasting your time.

      “Apparently Homophobic Head Boss” kind of concerns me. This is something that only came to you through hearsay, right? A homophobic boss should absolute factor into a decision to stay or go, but not from secondhand sources.

  130. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Interesting situation–aka “is this person truly interested or responding out of politeness?”

    Last month, a college connection reached out, we had lunch, at work, and he mentioned his boss might want me as a teapot adjunct professor. He emailed her cc’ing me. No word for a month. I assumed she wasn’t interested.

    Well. 2 days ago, she sends me a 1-liner email saying we should meet and chat. Is she doing this out of politeness? I don’t want to waste my time if it is. I’m lukewarm on the whole adjunct thing bc from what I’ve heard here, it’s non-tenured and people complain of longer hours and feeling used. Thoughts? Should I contact her? She’s the head dean so I don’t want to ignore her, but I’m not 100% sold on the part time role.

    1. Anon For Health Reasons*

      I’d contact her. What do you lose? So, you have a cup of coffee and you’re out 120 minutes of your life and 5 bucks. Or you end up having a really great convo and you find out it was super useful.

    2. Cactus Waterer*

      I think especially because you’re having all these uncertainties about teaching adjunct, you should absolutely reach out to her! Have coffee with her and ask her all those questions that you posed just now. Think of this meeting as a way to gather more information about the adjunct position – That way, you can make a much more informed decision aftwards/

    3. BRR*

      I’d almost 100% guarantee a dean is not offering to meet to be polite. I can see the delay being because people are out of town a lot during summer in academia and the one line email being because academics have their own norms. I can also see them only now knowing what their teaching need is for the semester based on enrollment.

      I think adjuncting can easily be not worth it. I think a lot of negative feelings towards it are justifiably from academics because universities aren’t offering full-time roles. But I do think from my own grad school experience that some classes were better taught from people in the field than professors who were talking about a subject that they hadn’t really used in practice for decades sometimes. That being said it can be a lot of work for the pay.

    4. Roja*

      FWIW it’s worth, I really liked being an adjunct and would definitely do it again if another opportunity came my way in my current location. I found the work-pay balance to be favorable, but I know that doesn’t happen all the time. I totally agree with BRR though that it can sometimes be very useful to have professors who are still in the field and/or have some really specific skillset that is only needed for a class or two, so I say it’s worthwhile meeting and seeing if it’s something you’d like to pursue.

  131. bravocado*

    It’s my last week at this job next week, and my boss has… unrealistic expectations of what I can really get accomplished in the next 5 days, especially as we also have a bunch of new staff she wants me to train too. I’ve tried to manage her expectations, but it seems to not be working. Do I just bite the bullet and work late? I want to keep a good reference.

    1. Anon For Health Reasons*

      I’d bite the bullet and tell her, “I can do X and I can do Y, but I can not do A or B. Or I can do A and B, but I can not do X or Y, which would you rather I work on?”

      And then see what she says. A little working late might be needed, but you shouldn’t have to work a lot late in your last 5 days.

    2. Rey*

      It might be helpful to write this out as an email so that she can review it and get back to you. And seeing it all written down might make help her visually realize that it isn’t going to happen in 5 days.

    3. RickTq*

      No. No late work at all. Tell your boss what you can do in the regular time remaining and stick to your guns.

  132. Madge*

    My client has gone no-contact. I’m their contract llama training system programmer so I still have ongoing projects to complete and they are letting me know when I need to onboard another trainer. And I’m still getting paid. I haven’t been told to stop working. But this person does not reply to any project updates, questions, or requests for meetings. We haven’t had a bi-weely status meeting since May and there are many things to discuss. And aside from a discussion early in the summer that their summer was going to be busy for them, I’ve heard no explanations…just silence. I’m still reporting on my activity, but if feels like I’m shouting into the void. And I’m a bit worried because something from an old project surfaced that looks like I missed something important when I think I was told not to do that thing (I’m searching my email archives to see if this is true) and another issue I was troubleshooting ended oddly and I don’t know if I messed up or what because that’s when the silence started. And there’s another employee involved in that issue and they’re not communicating with me either. I’m not a no news is good news type of person. Silence makes me worried that they’re angry with me and it’s my job to figure out why and fix it. But there’s only a few weeks left of summer so I’ll hold on and see if things improve once school starts.

    1. Chaordic One*

      Is there anyone else you can contact to check on him? A supervisor, or a coworker, or an assistant? Just to make sure that your client hasn’t died or quit for another job or something like that. I was in a situation with a client and my designated contact quit, but no one informed me or changed the company directory or informed me until after I contacted the head of the company, which was 2 or 3 months after not receiving a response from my designated contact. The head of the company was apologetic and even sent me a gift card.

  133. Imaginary Number*

    My coworker, Ned, does this thing that’s really getting on my nerves.

    If we’re in a conversation and there’s any sort of disagreement, no matter how minor, his response is always to say “peace.” For example:

    Ned: “We need to make this teapot handle red.”
    Me: “Red could probably work. Our red paint tends to chip. We’d probably have to make a new red paint.”
    Ned: “Peace. I just really think it needs to be red.”

    Ned: “Do you know the height of the new purple teapots?”
    Me: “I think it’s five inches but I’m not really involved in those. You might want to ask Sansa.”
    Ned: “Peace. I just wanted to know the height of the purple teapots.”

    The way he says it just really rubs me the wrong way because, to me, it comes across along the lines of saying “calm down” when no one is even remotely worked up. And he says it ALL the time. Like, 4-5 times in a five minute conversation. It’s basically his go-to response anytime someone says anything that’s even remotely contrary to what’s in his head.

    For context, Ned is near retirement and holds a title senior to mine, but isn’t in any sort of management or leadership position. He’s very good at what he does, but he essentially does work at the same level as mine. Everyone he works with is significantly younger than him, including those he reports to, both in management in technical leadership.

    Am I right to be bothered by his use of “peace”?

    2. Lissa*

      Holy crap this would INFURIATE me!! Just reading it makes me want to come through the screen. So, no, you are not wrong to be bothered IMO. Off with Ned’s head (sorry, couldn’t resist.) But seriously, I have encountered versions of this – people who do things like put their hands up and go “chill” when the disagreement is like…a 0.2 on the disagreement scale, not even rising to the use of the word “conflict.”

      (Also my father used to lose it when my brother and I had even a verbal disagreement over anything in his hearing so I may have Issues about this…) But yeah, it’s a thing. an annoying, annoying thing.

    3. GatsbytheGreatCatsby*

      Oooh ya, that’s annoying! Sounds like he’s using it to replace an affirmation like “OK”. If you have a good relationship, you could point it out in a good mannered way like “Do you realize you say ‘peace’ a lot?”. If not, you do say he’s near retirement…so maybe just know that’s one of his quirks and at least you won’t have to deal with it forever!

      1. Imaginary Number*

        I should just try that. “Do you know you say ‘peace’ a lot?”

        He’s a pretty outspoken person. I’m guessing that if I say that, though, he’s going to want to know why it bothers me because obviously he doesn’t think it should. I’m not sure what the correct response would be. “I comes off as condescending” maybe.

        1. GatsbytheGreatCatsby*

          Saying it comes off as condescending might be a little combative, but of course I don’t know your relationship with him. I actually have had this happen to me, I say “No worries” every time someone tells me thanks and a lot when I’m given any kind of a project, big or small. Someone said this exactly “Do you know you say ‘No worries’ a lot”? They said it in a smiley way and more of a just a “hey did you know?” kind of way. I honestly hadn’t realized how much I was saying it! I still say it, of course, but I’m way more mindful of it and have cut back.

        2. Snark*

          “It comes off as super passive aggressive and like you’re heading off an unreasonable statement I didn’t even make.”

      1. Lumen*

        +1

        …even though yeah, this would drive me bonkers. But I don’t think it means ‘calm down’ in Ned’s internal lexicon.

      2. Imaginary Number*

        Really? Because I don’t know his age for certain, but if I had to guess he’s probably right around there.

        1. Pollygrammer*

          Me either. I’ve always heard it as a version of “relax, chill out.” If he’s deploying it in the context of minor disagreement or correction, that’s how I would take it. And it would drive me nuts.

          1. Kat in VA*

            I hear “peace” as “chill out” rather then a form of HUA (Heard, Understood, Acknowledged) and yeah, it comes across as patronizingly passive-aggressive…like he’s heading off any disagreement at the pass (even if there’s no real disagreement to be had).

      4. LadyByTheLake*

        Maybe it was a west coast thing. I definitely think of it as a hippie way of general acknowledgement. Which is not to say that it isn’t annoying, it is. But it just means “yes” “okay” “I hear you.”

    5. Someone Else*

      This would hardcore push me in the direction of the “that word does not mean what you think it means” GIF. Because otherwise: WTF, Ned.

    6. Girl friday*

      I think Ned is displaying malicious compliance. Miss Manners says that if you say, “No, thank you,” to requests, that the asker will go away eventually. I would try that. I also don’t find giving people what they want particularly galling, so letting him do his schtick would be fine with me. Any non answer would work, doesn’t have to be no thank you, but that’s certainly the most virtuous option.

  134. Inopportune Moose*

    Does anyone have recommendations for a good tool to calculate what I’d need to make as a federal contractor to break even with my current salary?

    I’m considering a position as a federal contractor, but my understanding is that that might leave me paying for my own healthcare, benefits, etc. instead of getting them through my employer. (Is that right? What about PTO? Taxes?) I’m kind of at a loss, though, on how to calculate how much more I’ll need to make to break even if I’m taking these things out of my paycheck rather than having them taken out for me, but it seems like a calculator must exist out there somewhere. Had anyonerun across something like that? Any advice for this contacting super newbie?

    1. Snark*

      It really depends. I was a contractor for a long time, but I was with a firm that had its own back office staff. If that’s you, you don’t have to worry about it, because it’s just like getting hired by any other company, you’re just working at a client site.

      Hanging out your own shingle is different. I’ve seen things like you should bill out twice your typical salary rate, but I’m not positive. In any case, look into resources for freelancers – a freelancer’s billing rate would necessarily include their own health insurance, employment taxes and so on, so that should get you in the ballpark. You’ll also want to build in a reasonable budget for legal cousel, because one does not simply walk into federal contracts.

      1. Inopportune Moose*

        Thank you, that’s very helpful!

        I have a follow up question, then: I’m interviewing with a little offshoot of an agency that’s considering hiring me as a contractor, rather than an employee. I didn’t get a chance to follow up on that in the interview, but based on your experience, would there probably be a third party involved to officially hire me, or would I be hanging out my own single?

        1. Snark*

          That sounds very much like you hanging out a shingle, technically – you’d be freelancing for them as a contractor, essentially. I’ve had the experience of being offered a contract, then setting it up with my existing employer as a one-man task order, but that was when I was already employed by a firm that did federal contracting.

          1. Inopportune Moose*

            Ah rats. I wouldn’t mind at all having someone else take care of the logistics of Mordor so it looked like a more traditional employment relationship by the time it got to me.

            If that’s the case, they may have other “employees” functioning the same way– although I’m not sure– so hopefully there’s a path to follow. I just want to make sure I’m not accidentally taking a pay cut– and what would you budget for/ where would you look for legal representation?

            1. Snark*

              Ooof, no idea on budget, but the legal representation would just need to be a business lawyer with some background in contract law – just someone to basically review anything you sign to make sure you’re not screwing yourself or agreeing to do something illegal or an inherently governmental responsibility or something. There are practices that cater to federal contractors, even.

              1. Inopportune Moose*

                Actually, if it’s primarily contract law I need–and I’m not actually setting up my own small business– then I might know a lawyer I can pay in artisanal cheese…

      2. whistle*

        Ah, I did not considered that the OP might be striking out on their own and not working for a company. That does change things. OP, please let us know which it is!

    2. whistle*

      A Government Contractor is just like any other employer. They are likely going to need to be able to offer benefits such as insurance and pto in order to be able to attract the right talent. You should ask about insurance benefits available (and their cost) during the interview process. You should ask about pto and paid holidays etc. There is no one size fits all answer, and thus no tool or calculator.

      Taxes are not affected by who employs who – you will pay the same federal/state taxes as always, and your employer will have these automatically come out of your check.

      My company (federal contractor) offers 10-11 paid holidays and 2+ weeks pto, plus sick leave (depending on laws) for all our employees. We offer health, dental, and vision (at pricey rates). Our contracts generally require the holiday pay and pto pay based on tenure at the facility.

      One pit fall to watch out for: lots of federal contracts have some “non-duty days” built into the contract. These are usually days around a federal holiday where the facility is closed. Our employees are not allowed to work on these days, and we are not required by law to pay them. They can either take the day off unpaid, or use their pto. Some locations have 10 days like this, which means they could eat up all the employee’s pto, or the employee needs to factor in these days as unpaid for their personal budgeting.

      Federal contracting is weird. I’m happy to try to answer any other questions you have.

      1. Inopportune Moose*

        Thank you! I really appreciate the advice, because I’m clearly pretty clueless about the process– and definitely hadn’t heard about off duty days, so it’s great to have a heads up there. At least with Healthcare and dental, I can compare rates to what I currently pay (although it’s currently really good coverage for pretty good rates, so I’m sure I’ll be in for a shock).

        As I asked Snark above, m interviewing with a little offshoot of an agency that’s considering hiring me as a contractor, rather than an employee. Have you seen that done before, and are there particular things I should look out for there? Should I expect the paperwork to come from a third party?

      2. Snark*

        Just to provide my own experience on some of those issues, my old firm offered its own PTO and benefits, but in addition to PTO we also got all Federal holidays paid as well. Benefits were EXPENSIVE AF because it was a small group.

        Even if you’re working for yourself, you should make sure your contract documents specify paid holidays, and make sure to bake a reasonable number of PTO days into your billing rate.

    3. whistle*

      Thanks for the clarifications, Inopportune Moose. I can only write a quick response right now. It sounds like this would be a situation where you are paid only for hours worked and do not get a any paid time off. Here is how to calculate your required hourly rate in that situation. There are 2080 working hours per year. Lets say you want 20 days off per year (to keep it simple), which is 160 hours. That means that you will work 1920 hours per year (2080 – 16o), but you want to be paid for 2080 hours per year. 2080/1920 = 1.0833. You will need to make 1.0833 x desired pay rate to be able to “pay yourself” for your days off, e.g. if you want to make $20/hr, you will need to make $21.66 to compensate for the lack of paid time off. Hope that makes sense!

        1. whistle*

          Good! :)
          Here are some other things to consider when converting your “employee” pay rate to an independent contractor pay rate. (Sounds like you are already considering all of these, but just in case you are not.)
          1. Health insurance will cost more if you are getting it yourself. Take annual cost of new insurance – current annual cost of insurance and divide by 2080 to get an “hourly stipend” that you will need to add to your pay rate.
          2. Can’t remember the portion of taxes that the employer pays, but you can google this, and then you will need to add this amount to your desired pay rate.
          3. Anything else your employer pays for that you will now have to pay for, e.g. cell phone, mileage stipend, etc. Total all these things up and convert this number to an hourly rate by dividing by 2080, as with the health insurance.
          4. After all that, I would personally tack on another 2% for misc items you may have forgotten about :)
          With all that, you basically get this formula:
          (desired pay rate + insurance stipend + other benefits stipend) x paid time off (as calculated in previous comment) x new tax burden = independent contract pay rate

  135. Frustated Jobseeker*

    Fellow AAM fans,. I am a job seeker. I could go on and on about the frustrations of my search, but I need insight and advice about this particular issue. As a job seeker, I use LinkedIn to find job postings and to research companies and hiring managers. Most LinkedIn job listings include “Contact the Job Poster” information, with the name *and* a link to Message that person through LinkedIn. I pay for LinkedIn Premium job seeker service, which includes InMail. Occasionally, after I’ve applied for a position for which I’m qualified and interested, I have sent brief, polite, and professional follow up InMails a week or so later to, as LinkedIn suggests, contact these job posters. And then, about 80-90 percent of the time, they do not respond. When they do, it’s “Sorry, that job’s been filled.”

    One time, I saw a nearly-perfect position for me with a company I have unsuccessfully applied to several times before. When I received no response through InMail for at least a week about my application, I called the company — and magically, on the first try, was connected to Recruiter. Recruiter told me sorry, he’s just overwhelmed by social media and doesn’t often check LinkedIn. And yes, the hiring managers were in the final stages of interviewing — so the job was about to be filled. (Of course, and par for my course.) He’d still forward my resume, but …. Why would Recruiter allow the Contact the Job Poster link with his company’s LinkedIn job postings AND say in his profile to contact him regarding opportunities if it’s so “overwhelming” for him to follow up with people over LinkedIn? If you’ve posted a job to LinkedIn, with the contact link feature, then why would you *not* go about checking your LinkedIn Messages every day and respond to those messages as you would emails?

    If you’ve posted a job to LinkedIn with a “Contact the Job Poster” link, and you receive a (brief, polite, and professional) follow up InMail from a candidate, then I believe you should promptly respond to the applicant. Even if it is to say the job has been filled. LinkedIn enables this contact, and people like me pay extra for InMail. So why aren’t people responding more to my InMails? Is the Contact the Job Poster feature just an illusion? Do these people ignore Messages from applicants who are not their direct contacts or referrals from direct contacts, even though LinkedIn encourages applicants to contact them? Does LinkedIn need to step into this problem and tell people to please respond to professional messages sent as part of the “Contact the Job Poster”? Yes, LinkedIn is an online social network. Yet LinkedIn is considered the online social network for professionals. As such, people ought to behave professionally on LinkedIn *and reply to their Messages.* Rant over.

    1. Frustrated Jobseeker*

      OP here: I just realized I misspelled “Frustrated” in my username. That’s not like me, and that’s embarrassing.

    2. KayEss*

      There was a thread about this kind of thing at some point, but I don’t remember when–I read the archives a lot and it all blurs together, so it could have been literally any time. Basically, the conclusion was that the absolute best, most likely to get noticed way to apply to any job listing online is to go from the LinkedIn or whatever posting to the company’s own site and apply there, because then it goes directly into their system without intermediaries.

      The conversation was specifically about LinkedIn’s “Easy Apply” feature, and there were a lot of eye-opening comments from people on the hiring end about how LinkedIn’s system for posting jobs is not always very intuitive–for instance, “Easy Apply” is on by default, and is very easy for a job poster to leave it turned on even when they have no intention to monitor applications received on their behalf by LinkedIn. The “Contact the Job Poster” feature could very well be a similar situation.

    3. BRR*

      I’ve never posted a job on LinkedIn so I’m not sure what’s it’s like on that end, but I would treat any LinkedIn message from a candidate the same as an email from a candidate. That being likely either ignoring the message or referring them to apply through whatever the channel is.

      I would generally not reccomend following up after only applying (and really overall but especially early in the hiring process). I don’t think it helps anyone’s candidacy.

    4. soupmonger*

      However you personally may feel about LinkedIn, it’s a social media site. It’s not obligatory for people to read or respond to messages via that site. If you come across job postings via LimkedIn, head to the company website and apply using the method they suggest – don’t expect LinkedIn to carry an application.

      I get connection requests and messages via my LinkedIn but – it’s a social media site; I pay no attention.

  136. Anon For Health Reasons*

    I’m struggling a lot right now with both my Anxiety and my Depression. The worst part is that I can not seem to concentrate a work. I am not heavily supervised and I find myself messing around on the internet and not working. Sometimes for an entire day.

    I know I can not keep this up and keep my job. I need to fix the behavior, but all my usual tricks- to do list, setting a timer, using apps like Forest are just not working. I could really use some advice on how to manage to do work I don’t want to do when I am so unmotivated to do anything.

    1. Elisabeth*

      I understand this SO DEEPLY, I can’t even tell you. Here are some things that work for me:

      1) If you’re full-time, consider whether or not you can access EAP benefits for some free counseling/therapy sessions to see if having that in your life could help get things back on track;
      2) I get easily distracted, so something that I’ve found helps me is to get my noise-cancelling headphones and listen to something interesting while I do my work (sometimes the work is data entry level, not Is This Project Okay level);
      3) See if you can get more sleep at night if you’re not getting enough, or less if you’re getting too much (this is possible! As someone with chronic depression, I assure you). Often I find that my distractedness is DIRECTLY correlated with my sleeping patterns.
      4) When you feel the need to get online or mess around hit you, get up if you can and just do a quick loop around the office. Or take an elevator to another floor. Get a drink of water. Take a flight of stairs. Something to get your brain off the feedback loop, but also doing something totally unrelated to your work.

    2. Ennigaldi*

      Hi, this was me a year ago! I focused a lot on repetitive work that didn’t involve a lot of executive functioning and listened to podcasts to tune out background noise/my coworkers arguing in the next cubicle over (I also filed an ADA request to move desks to somewhere quieter). Dialing back my own expectations and using distraction to get through the day helped, but my job involves a lot of data entry so this may not be possible for you. Try to remind yourself that your state of mind now is temporary, and it isn’t about whether you’re lazy or a bad worker.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Can you gamify your work?

      Every file you process you earn a point. For every 5 points, you can take a 5 minute break. When you hit 15 points, you can get a candy bar.

    4. Lumen*

      Same and same!

      I’ve been using the app Space to stay off my phone more (it worked better for me than Forest, I can turn some apps off – like Spotify for listening to music – and add things like having the screen dim when I’m over my time limit).

      However, in terms of just futzing around all day? For me, (especially when my mental health is not great) that is a signal that means I need to take a day off. Maybe just a Friday or Monday, or an extra day around a holiday, whatever. YMMV, but for me, “I cannot GAF about this job right now” usually means I need to give myself permission to… well. Not GAF for a day or two.

      It helps me. If you’re able, schedule a day or two and see if it helps.

      1. Kathy*

        Yes, this is me! The second part. I just had to take a mental health day the other week. I LOVE my job now, my boss is awesome, but sometimes I do also get to a point where I’m like I literally do not care about anything, much less this job thing. I came back and plowed through everything that was on my list for the past two weeks. AND. My boss was hella impressed.

        One thing I will note though, my boss and I maintain open lines of communication about my anxiety. I know I’m pretty lucky that he gets it, but OP, if you think that your boss would get it too, absolutely I would talk to her first.

      2. EmilyG*

        Side question if you don’t mind: is this the paid version of Space or something? I tried it out and it didn’t work too well for me because I’d be traveling, say, and using Maps a lot and get penalized for it. It just didn’t seem meaningful. If I could exclude certain apps that would make a big difference.

        1. Lumen*

          Nope, just the free version. Excluded apps are under ‘toolkit’ (so I can put my sleep tracker, music, etc there). There is also a ‘pause’ button so you can temporarily tell Space to stop tracking you entirely.

          I think when it comes to productivity or focus systems, it depends on the person and the current situation. There was a time when a simple pomodoro timer worked wonders for me, but no longer. I’m currently liking Space mainly because it will interrupt me if I’ve been staring at the screen for X minutes (I can adjust X) and I haven’t even realized it.

    5. Lil Fidget*

      This was me at my last job. I was burned out (and maybe a little depressed). I could pull it out when I had a pressing deadline, but I needed a lot of time off plus the excitement of a new job to get myself out of the rut. Unfortunately, I will say it was hard to job search while I was in a mental blur, and probably took longer than it should have because of that.

    6. Folklorist*

      Nothing constructive to add, other than my support! I’m right here with you, in the middle of a run of really bad luck for the past six months, depressed and anxious and can’t concentrate. You’re not alone and I’m following this thread for suggestions.

    7. Jennifer Thneed*

      Pomodoro technique: get a timer, ideally one that makes a ding! sound. Set it for 20 minutes and work. When it dings, you get 10 minutes to do whatever you want. (Might want to set the timer for that also.) Rinse, repeat. This technique really does help.

      Also, I agree with Elisabeth about getting up and walking. My last corporate job, we had the entire floor and the elevators were in the middle, so the working area was like a big square donut. I used to get up and walk the circuit once quickly and then I could sit down with a little more concentration and a little more wakefulness.

  137. Cactus Waterer*

    Not sure if this is the appropriate place to ask this question, but here it goes: How do you manage your emotions at work, and how do you make career decisions without the influence of your emotions?

    I’ve always thought of myself as a very rational and organized person, but in the last year and a half, I’ve come to realize that I am very insecure and anxious when it comes to making work-related decisions. Earlier this month, I gave up on a job opportunity that would’ve been a huge step up for my career, because my anxiety and emotions completely clouded my judgement (the position wasn’t something I was that interested in or passionate about, but it would have been a great way to get my foot in the door with an amazing and prominent organization in my field). Obviously, hindsight is 20/20, so while I regret my decision terribly, I think this was a good wake-up call to recognize that my emotions are hindering my career growth.

    So my question is , how to you detach your emotions from your work? How do you make rational and not emotionally based decisions for big career moves? What are some techniques you use to cope? Do you write lists? Talk to a therapist?

    1. Brownie*

      Therapy is a good way to start and if you can’t find one right away there’s lots of CBT workbooks out there which don’t have to be used in conjunction with a therapist. My usual go-to is to do a talk-it-out with a good friend where they let me use them as a sounding board. There’s something about having what I’m saying reflected back to me that lets me recognize where my emotions are affecting my thinking. Writing it out also works, but not usually as well for me as talking it over with someone who can ask questions and get angles that I’m blind to.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I work with a therapist. I have for years. I also have anxiety and depression, but it’s mild. My rule is this- If you think you might benefit from speaking with a therapist, than go speak with a therapist.

  138. M_Lynn_K*

    I am 2 months into a new job, and I’m a woman on the younger side in a profession known for being predominantly female staff but with frequently male upper leadership. With that context out of the way, I want to HAPPILY report the total confusion I’m seeing about gender norms in my office. A man baked a treat to share with the office. 3 men eagerly volunteered to help plan a female coworker’s surprise wedding shower. The male head of the project helps set up tables and move chairs before meetings. I’ve NEVER experienced so many men doing these touchy gender issues so well! It’s destabilizing but so awesome. There is hope!

    1. Lumen*

      I know a guy who bakes. He’s pretty crabby and definitely exhibits several elements of toxic masculinity, but… he bakes. A lot. Specifically: carefully decorated sugar cookies. He posted a picture to Instagram the other of his pink ombre frosting experiment.

      Sometimes he talks about feeling odd about being ‘the guy who bakes’, but he also takes a lot of joy in perfecting his cookie recipe and decorating creatively. He also has his 5 year old son ‘help’ him decorate cookies, so the next generation is also missing out on the “ew no, baking is for girls!!! and that’s bad!!!” messaging.

      Things are changing. There IS hope.

    2. Pollygrammer*

      I am female, and the official office spider-remover. I’m pretty proud of that. I was asked to de-spider the men’s bathroom once.

    3. OyVey*

      As is the case in many industries, women in my field are beautiful, talented pretty faces who, when successful, can achieve a great deal of public name recognition. However, women are also historically vastly underpaid and men usually are the managers and decision makers. My female manager runs her own shop in this industry and is doing it extremely well. Very much a f**k you to the male manager she once had who told her she’d never be a manager, much less a success at it.

  139. Nanc*

    Any old-school good at word processing folks out there looking for a position? My neck of the woods is hiring for a Word Processing Specialist in the State Legislature and it actually looks really interesting!
    https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/la/Lists/Employment/DispForm.aspx?ID=183

    Full disclosure–I wouldn’t apply myself because I can’t stand my local rep (who is a former coworker at an old job) and they seem to be of the opinion that trying to introduce masses of arbitrary legislation means they’re doing a great job! But it still looks interesting if you like structure and are interest in politics!

  140. Lissa*

    I don’t want to give details that would identify my friend so just a question: any resources, support forums, or ideas about what to do if you’re being harassed at work due to an immediate family member having committed a very bad crime (and being incarcerated for it)? This isn’t an issue that seems to get discussed a lot, but I imagine my friend can’t be the only one this has happened to – she is scared to go up the chain with this because of the circumstances, and someone basically saying “complaining about this is disrespectful to the victim who endured X and Y.”

    1. Grouchy 2 cents*

      It’s disrespectful to the victim to harass someone who didn’t commit the crime. I mean ok, if your friend is vocally supporting her family member, saying they were railroaded and suggesting the victim is wrong that’s one thing (I can imagine sending a stink eye or 20 towards the dad of Brock Turner, Stanford Rapist for example. But if she’s as horrified as everyone else there is no reason to shame or blame her and she should bring it up to management.

  141. GatsbytheGreatCatsby*

    I have a resume formatting question. I’ve been at my company 2 years and recently got promoted for the 2nd time. When I was first hired, I was working as an assistant for Company A. Company A was acquired by Company B and I was promoted to a manager for Company B. Now, I have been promoted to another manager position, but it is back at Company A. How should I format this on a resume for the future? My thinking goes to having it all listed under Company B and specifying Company A beside each role, but Company B wasn’t involved when I was first hired at Company A.

    1. Building Teams*

      So, let me understand this:
      Individual contributor, Company A
      Manager, Company A (acquired by Company B in 2018)
      Sr. Mgr., Company A (acquired by Company B in 2o18)

      So, if you are listing it on your resume, I would recommend:
      Company A (acquired by Company B in Jan. 2018) Jan. 2010 – Present
      Sr. Manager, July 2018 – Present
      Mgr., Jan. 2018 – June 2018
      Individual Contributor, Jan. 2010 – Dec. 2017

      Now, if you want to list out Sr. Mgr. and list a bullet underneath that you have been promoted 3X.

  142. Folklorist*

    I need some advice for talking to my boss about what would need to be a substantial raise.

    I recently found out that I have increased financial obligations for the foreseeable future–long story short, I thought that some student loans that were taken care of, weren’t. I’m going to need to be making another ~$10,000/year to keep my mortgage and still be able to save money at the rate I would like. This would amount to a 20% raise for me at my current job, which I know that my boss isn’t in a position to give, so I didn’t even ask.

    I took on a second job, as well as a bunch of freelance work, but I’m now basically working 24/7 and completely burned out. I’m not performing as well as I should at my first job, which I love and don’t want to leave. But now I’m getting the sense that my second job is about to go down the tubes (long story short, my managers are a bunch of corrupt jerks and the company is probably going bust soon).

    I hate relying on freelancing for this kind of thing because it’s hit-and-miss and takes a long time to pay out. Besides, the work is dull and I’m sitting on my butt constantly. The second job doesn’t make as much, but it’s active and pretty fun (when the managers aren’t negligent a-holes), which makes it a little more sustainable. But I’m so, so tired all the time. The only way I can see out of this thing at all is if I either get a substantial raise/promotion at my current job, or find a new job.

    I love my job. My boss is the best boss I’ve ever had. They’ve given me opportunities that I’d never have otherwise gotten. I’ve grown so much here. I don’t want to leave, but we’re a non-profit publication and not really rolling in dough. Should I lay all of my cards on the table for my boss and tell him that I either need a lot of extra money or I need to leave? I hate to put that on his shoulders. I don’t think it’s the best way to approach it. But I don’t know what else to do.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      You’re right; “you need to pay me more because I need more money now” is not the direction you should take. But I think it could possibly be part of your request. “X is an issue, and also I need more money, and I’d really prefer to stay here if possible.” So, what is X? If you’re underpaid for what you do, use that. If you’re doing more than you used to, use that. If you can’t think of an X, you’re going to have a really hard time justifying more money.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        TBH, you know your own org best – if I knew I need 20K more, and that my org would never pay that much for my position, I probably wouldn’t go down that line personally. I’d worry it would come across as tone-deaf to ask. I would likely just start job searching in a more lucrative field. But that is just me personally, I’m sure someone out there has achieved it.

    2. NeverNicky*

      I understand that you want to keep saving at your previous rate but something has to give – and better a bank balance than you!
      And savings are for rainy days and unexpected expenses … so I’d be using them, giving myself some room to breathe and work out my next move.

      1. Folklorist*

        Thanks for the suggestion! Unfortunately, I don’t have very much saved. When I bought my place, I had almost no savings left. I’m now have about 3 months’ expenses socked away, but that’s not anywhere near where I need to be to feel comfortable in case of emergency or job loss. If it was just some extra cash that I was trying to save to invest or anything like that, I would totally agree with you! I’ve been scraping to build my life from nothing after a really rough bout of joblessness and medical issues prior to this current job.

    3. MeowYorker*

      It sounds like you have a great relationship with your manager, so if I were you, I might be pretty open with the manager. I’d word carefully it so that it wouldn’t sound like a threat, but I would tell him that you are in need of more money, and ask him if there is any more responsibility you could take on to justify the raise. Basically, I’d approach it from a “here’s a problem I’m having, can we (i.e., the organization and you) work out something together so both of us benefit?” perspective.

      I hope both of you can find some way to generate enough of a raise for you to at least eliminate the need for the freelance work. This really sounds exhausting and unsustainable. Good luck!

      1. Folklorist*

        Thank you, this is exactly what I’ve been thinking (ESPECIALLY emphasizing the “this isn’t a threat”). Once, my co-worker kind of hinted, half-joking off-the-cuff that she might leave, and he automatically said, “How much would it take to keep you?” He is a fantastic boss who bends over backwards to make sure that we feel appreciated. And I’d happily take on more responsibilities in other departments or something else for the raise!
        Part of me wonders if he’s already planning some sort of raise or promotion come review time (next month), because he’s dropped little mentions here and there of, “You really need your own office!” and giving more responsibility. He also knows that I have the second job and the freelancing…and somewhat of the amount of burn-out that I’m having. I’m not sure if I should wait until review time to bring this up, or to do it now.

        1. MeowYorker*

          That sounds promising! I think I lean toward bringing it up now. If he wasn’t planning for a significant raise (but wants to make it happen), discussing it now might give him more time to do the legwork needed; if he was indeed planning to give you a significant raise (with or without more responsibility), then great, you know it now and that should alleviate some of your stress and give you a timeline to look forward to.

  143. Ennigaldi*

    I’m trying to figure out how to word some feedback to my manager. Yesterday our department had our end of fiscal year debrief meeting, and each manager was going over their team’s accomplishments to kick things off. We’ve had a ton of turnover in the past year, so my manager was only here for the last couple of months of the FY. So he says something like, “we got X and Y done and made a bunch of progress on Big Project, so thank you to Nabonidus and Balshazzar and…the others.” On to the next manager. He doesn’t say thank you ENNIGALDI, just OTHERS. I’m the only other person on the team in the room. I’ve been there the entire fiscal year, I trained him when he started as well as all the other new staff in the room, I ran our team when they were hiring someone for his position, I do 90 percent of the day to day work with the rest of the department (he is focused on Big Project). It was noticeable enough that one of the other managers mentioned it to me afterward as being bizarre.

    This month is performance review time, so I’m trying to come up with a way to word my feedback if he asks for it at our review (we don’t do supervisor reviews here so it would be during mine). I want to convey that sure, I was disappointed, but frame it as less about me and more about this being an important management skill. Give your employees credit!

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Hmm, I wouldn’t approach it as you, the employee, giving your manager feedback on a management skill. That just seems odd to me. I would actually worry a little if the name at the tip of my manager’s tongue was not-mine, but I’m not sure I’d bring it up if that was the only case ever of feeling neglected or overlooked. It’d be easier to bring it up if there was a pattern, and I’d probably say something like, “I want to make sure I’m a standout employee in the department, and I don’t get the sense I’m achieving that. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions.” But, that’s just me, I’m rather conservative with work hierarchies after some bad early experiences. Anyone else want to weigh in?

  144. Nita*

    I posted something about this on last week’s open thread, but I keep thinking about it, especially after yesterday’s topic about being overpaid. I think I’m pretty overpaid – not for my level, but for my performance. Just what do I do? The obvious answer is “try to improve,” but right now I can’t put in more hours, and mentally switching gears to do more business development scares me. I’m an introvert and worry that business development will suck so much out of me, that I’ll have nothing left for when I get home. Should I be asking for a pay cut at the next performance review, because I’ve turned out to be terrible at what I’m doing? Looking for a new job might be a good idea, but I’ve got really nice flex time, and probably won’t find that anywhere else.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Definitely do not ask for a paycut!! Ever. Nobody knows what they’re really worth, and it’s the company’s job to decide you’re not doing what they need and help you do better, not yours. You could be suffering from impostor syndrome. If your reviews are good (are your reviews good?), assume you’re doing well enough and they’re happy with what they’re getting for their money.

      1. Nita*

        *sigh* I talked to my boss a couple of months ago and she was happy with my work, but I can see I’m doing so much worse than others at my level. My project budgets keep exploding – not enough staff at a lower pay grade to delegate the work to, but still… I’m not involved in any of the latest initiatives or business development. I’m barely making 40 hours a week, when others are putting in 12-hour days. It’s not pretty.

        To complicate everything further, I’m going on maternity leave in the fall and I’m hoping to ask for a longer one (unpaid). Someone’s going to have to carry my workload – it’s not much right now, but a few of my big projects are, naturally, going live in the fall/winter. Maybe management would be more OK with me being gone for a good long while if I wasn’t overpaid and under-performing. I was really hoping to put in a standout performance this summer, but life had other plans.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          I guess this is where I put on my Chaddington Chadwick the Third hat. Would Chad feel badly that he’s costing the company too much money? Would he tell them that they should maybe take some of it back? NO! Chadwick always believes he’s worth even more than whatever he’s getting, and they’re lucky to even have him on board. He’s going to continue in this belief as he asks for whatever leave he wants, and he’s not going to change his mind unless circumstances FORCE him to hear that he’s not all that and a bag of chips. (And even then, in his heart he still believes he is). WWChadwickD.

        2. Havarti*

          There seems to be more going on then you’re letting on – like why can’t you make 40 hours a week? You’re pregnant, right? I think you should cut yourself some slack. Growing a baby is full-time job right there, not to mention the fog of pregnancy brain. As for the staffing and budget issues – what are the bosses going to do about that? Will they permit hiring lower level staff? Take care of yourself first. Take all that money you think you’re being overpaid and save it. Kids are not cheap.

          1. Nita*

            There was an illness in the family. It was all hands on deck, so I got stuck with 90% of the day care drop-offs and pick-ups. With my commute, that means working 7.5 hours instead of 8 every day, and making up that half hour at night was hard because the other house chores were on me too. That’s all over now, but yeah, there go my hopes of a top-notch performance this summer. I’ve still got a couple of months to make up for it though…

            Management is hoping to hire lower-level staff, so maybe that will make a difference. Who knows! We’re running in place, because the new hires don’t stick around more than 2-3 years – maybe it’s the cost of living here, maybe it’s the crazy hours, maybe changing jobs often is just normal these days…

    2. Ennigaldi*

      If you feel really guilty about it, donate to something you care about! But it’s very very likely that you’re just working for a good company.

    3. Havarti*

      What does your boss say? Are they happy with your performance? Think about if this is imposter syndrome speaking or not.

  145. getting there*

    On the topic of worst bosses, I came across this news clip about a woman who was fired after donating a kidney to her boss. Had to share it here! Link in user name.

  146. wingmaster*

    My company has been moving people around, so two people are out of my office. Now, it’s just my boss and I. We’re so excited to do a different layout and utilize the free space. I’ve been on Pinterest to get inspiration. I’m in the apparel industry, so I am mostly looking at ideas of how to make an amazing fabric and trim library, which I am in charge of too. So far, I have a couple of shelves with fabric and trim binders (fabric/trims we’ve adopted), two filing cabinets with fabric headers/lab dips (fabric currently in development), and four garment racks for samples. I’m probably going to request more shelves. But overall, I’m just stoked that I can finally work on this project now.

  147. nep*

    There’s a universal blacklist and I swear I’m on it.
    But of course, nothing to do but get back to the job boards and polish up that resume.
    Good luck, all job-seekers.

    1. Elisabeth*

      Good luck to you! Just keep plugging away, maybe seek out recruiters or free career counseling to spiff up the resume and cover letter game.

    2. Kat in VA*

      I’m right there with you. I keep making it to final interviews and get “It was a hard choice buuuut…we chose the other candidate” or whatever. I must be doing SOMETHING right to be “always the bridesmaid, never the bride”..but I’m really, really getting sick of the process.

    3. Grouchy 2 cents*

      Ugh I’m another blacklist member. “They loooooooved you!” But not enough, apparently?

      Side note to recruiters here: telling a candidate who isn’t getting the job that the company loved them is not helpful! It’s not letting us down easy, it’s just giving us all complexes. Don’t tell me I was a really strong candidate, but…Don’t tell me they thought really long and hard before going with the other person. Tell me I didn’t get it and if there’s a specific reason why include that, “You needed llama foot examining skills”. Anything else just comes across as fake, like they told you I was so horrible they couldn’t even but you can’t tell me that so you spin some bs.

      1. Kat in VA*

        My second least favorite:

        “Everyone loooved you, you were perfect for the job, your skillset is amazing, and you would have been great in every way…except we went with an internal hire/employee referral. Sorry bowdat!”

        Recruiters/HR – please do NOT tell me I was beaten out by an internal or referral. Because then I get to questioning whether the whole thing was a sham and why you bothered to waste my time when we all know that I didn’t have a chance in hell in the first place.

    4. nep*

      Thanks. +1 On all this re what employers say.
      I’ve had one email screen that led to phone interview w director of the department in question. No response after that (I bombed the phone interview), and not a hint of acknowledgement anywhere else. So indeed I’ve got to improve what I’m presenting in that first go.

    5. Anonymosity*

      I’m starting to feel that way too. The longer I’m unemployed, the blacker it gets. :(

    6. The New Wanderer*

      Funny you should mention it, I have now had two family members ask (independent of each other) whether I have possibly been blacklisted in my field because of my serious lack of luck. The equivalent of my situation is to be searching for an academic faculty job but limited to the schools in one city because I can’t relocate. If they’re not hiring, I’m out of luck. At this point I need a lightning strike of a job to come around.

    7. Chaordic One*

      Keep applying for jobs. Eventually you’ll run into an employer who doesn’t do good background checks, or who doesn’t subscribe to the blacklist, or might realize what a great potential employee you’d be.

  148. thathat*

    A couple weeks back, there was a minor incident between myself and a coworker (she refused to answer my work-related questions and just stared at me. I said “I don’t know why you’re looking at me like that, I just need to know ___.” I lost my temper and should have just walked away and gotten a supervisor, I know that now). Our supervisor wanted to arrange a meeting with the three of us to talk things out, because coworker (X) and I have been having troubles for years. Our previous supervisor did her best to resolve these by removing X as my direct supervisor because of her bullying (something previous supervisor straight-up told me). Our current supervisor has been here a little over a year, and is very friendly with X (they go on breaks sometimes with one or both of the other members of the department).

    I asked for HR to be present at the meeting. At the time it seemed like a good idea–I could be assured that there would be a record of the meeting (there are no records of our previous meetings under the old supervisor, or of why X was removed as my supervisor, and that troubles me), and since Supervisor and X are friendly, it would keep things neutral.

    I’d take it back if I could. I shouldn’t have asked.

    Supervisor has been very cold with me ever since I asked. The meeting never happened, but instead a one-on-one meeting with HR was arranged. HR said supervisor had said I wanted a one-on-one meeting to complain. (Supervisor has since said that wasn’t true and that the one-on-one was HR’s idea.) I really didn’t want that, because I didn’t want to get put in a position where I’d have to explain all the petty bullying over the past 4 years–I just wanted to have a neutral meeting, and hopefully work on a solution. But that’s what I found myself doing anyway. (My best solution was that maybe X and I ask any questions over e-mail, because I know that’s something she has to do with another person in a different department. It would remove body language and tone and also ensure that she could hear me, which she often claims she doesn’t. But it wasn’t a very good solution, so it was dismissed.)

    X…isn’t really the problem. I mean, she is, but fine, I can just try harder to ignore the bullying (which supervisor does not believe is real). The problem now is that my supervisor is angry with me.

    She’s been very curt where she used to be friendly. We spoke a little after the meeting, and she seemed upset with me (she’s not really great at hiding when she’s angry). When I asked if we were ok and apologized and clarified that I hadn’t been trying to go over her head, she just mumbled that “It’s work. You have to be able to work with people.” Which is what she’d said about me and X having to work with people even if you don’t like them. Which feels like she’s saying that yeah, now she doesn’t like me, but she doesn’t have to like me. Which, I mean, she doesn’t, but being Shut Out by a supervisor who’s friendly with everyone else in the department is…a real bad time, and not a great situation to be in.

    I don’t know what to do. I’m just really scared and anxious. I’ve already been in a work situation once where I made a stupid mistake and got Shut Out and was miserable. I feel gaslit like crazy because nobody in my department believes me about the bullying (even tho X’s behavior is common knowledge and not just with me). The HR person basically told me that there’s no bullying because there is no record of it.

    I’m scared. Is there anyway I can fix things between me and my supervisor?

    1. Havarti*

      Everything about this is not good. Supervisor being friendly with X means she will never side with you regarding X’s behavior. HR isn’t helping either. Can you fix it? Probably not. If you stay long enough and keep your head down, you might be able to get to a more neutral point. But you’re scared and anxious and it just doesn’t seem like a good place. Do you really like this job otherwise? Would you be willing to look for something else?

    2. LCL*

      You’re focused on the wrong thing. You are worried about making your supervisor like you. You should be concerned with a known bully is doing it to you again. Stop talking it over with everybody in the department, if you are. How do you know nobody believes you? Even if true, what difference does that make towards making this better?

      Your next step is to back to HR. Tell them the bullying is happening. Tell them you are formally reporting it. The whole history. Tell them the facts of the previous actions taken, as best you know them. Give up on expecting your supervisor to like you, as long as she is friends with bully that’s not going to happen. HR was serving you well by asking for a private meeting, though it doesn’t seem like it. Meetings to settle things between employees and one manager only work well when the manager is strong enough and ethical enough to tell both parties what they are doing wrong, and what to stop doing. And it sounds like that’s not your manager-the meeting would have ended up being about how you were at fault.

      What you describe isn’t losing your temper, at all. That was nothing. Your solution of working by email, if the job allows, was a good one.

      1. Margery*

        I agree with LCL and document every single occasion it happens.

        Create a spreadsheet with a shortcut to your desk top – column for date, time and event. Just keep adding to it. Even if you think it’s trivial – it all mounts up and is bullying and harrassment – if you have it documented HR will HAVE to take it seriously.

        I feel for you I’ve been through something similar but luckily my manager was understanding and eventually it stopped. I’m now getting along really well with the bully (but know NEVER to trust her again).

        Take care of yourself – rest when you can – try to switch off after work – your health is really important

        Good luck

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I agree, I think the email-only solution is the best path for now. It is already necessary for another employee in order to deal with X, you’re just following the established pattern. Go back to HR and explain the history of X’s removal as your supervisor, when and why that happened, and her behavior toward you since then.

        You should probably document the retaliatory behavior of your supervisor as objectively as possible, too. Supervisor has no reason to treat you like this, except possibly out of fear that you told HR that Supervisor allows X to treat you poorly without repercussions.

        It might not be fixable, but this isn’t in your head and you should make that clear to HR.

        1. ThatHat*

          ” Go back to HR and explain the history of X’s removal as your supervisor, when and why that happened, and her behavior toward you since then.”

          I tried to explain that and he said that for all I know it could have been some sort of downsizing unrelated to me. It wasn’t, unless my previous supervisor lied, but since there’s no record, there’s only my word, and I’m not involved. When I tried to explain again, he asked why I was so concerned with why X had been demoted. I said because it involved me, but since there’s no record, as far as HR is concerned, it doesn’t, so it’s none of my business, even though my concern isn’t that she was demoted, it’s that a record of her bullying that I thought existed doesn’t.

          I do have a record of instances, but since they’re mostly a collection of small, passive-aggressive things, and the HR guy seemed dismissive, I thought bringing it out would make me look more paranoid than anything.

          That’s kind of why I’m worried about trying to make amends with my supervisor. I actually really love this job, and it’s unlikely I could find anything else even remotely like it in the city. HR has already made it plain that they think I’m just a “complainer” and need to stop worrying about X and just worry about my own behavior. So really, my only option is to just try and keep my supervisor from resenting me for any of it.

      3. ThatHat*

        HR doesn’t believe me either, though. I tried to tell him about the bullying, but none of what I described sounded like bullying to him. It’s all very small, passive-aggressive things, with only a few exceptions, none of which have documentation. And since there’s no record of why previous actions were taken, there’s only my word on it, and I’m not high enough to officially know things. When I tried to talk about it, he just kept interrupting me to basically tell me it was all in my head.

        I don’t talk about this with anyone in the department. That would just be trouble and I know it.

        1. LCL*

          Is this a large or small company? I am confident in saying your HR person is incompetent at HR. Sometimes in smaller places HR gets added to other office managing and payroll jobs, and none of them get done well.

          1. ThatHat*

            It’s a civil service job, so technically it’s pretty large? I don’t know. He told me he had been with HR at a college previously, so he’s done this for a while.

            I mean, I get that really their goal isn’t to make me happy or to make things fair, it’s just to keep things running smoothly, and that sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced if it keeps squeaking.

      4. ThatHat*

        HR also told me that the email idea was ridiculous. I know it’s a bit silly because we’re only a few cubicles down from each other. But both HR and supervisor said that part of the job is being able to communicate with your coworkers, even if you don’t like them. And I see where they’re coming from. I know it just creates more work, I just didn’t think it would be much more.

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          “Yes, and SHE needs to be able to communicate with ME also.”

          > The HR person basically told me that there’s no bullying because there is no record of it.

          That’s not how it works. There might not be a record, but that’s because nobody made a record. Go back to the HR person and tell them you want to create a record. And don’t let him brush you off with “that doesn’t sound bad” — just insist that you want it documented.

          Can you go to anyone over the HR person’s head? And keep handing it back. “Email is ridiculous? Staring at me without answering my question is ridiculous.”

          1. LCL*

            Yeah, in civil service there is always a higher authority. On occasion this happens in government-the lowest level employee will be bullied by someone, and the direct HR and management will just blow it off. OP, how bad do you want this job? If you want it, this is worth going back to HR, and if nothing is done complain higher. But it will require a bit of pushing. If you just don’t have the stomach for this, you should look for another job. You shouldn’t be treated this way, you sound like you try not to fight and just want to do your job.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          How nice for them to put it all on you so they don’t have to do their jobs properly. I’m sorry, I didn’t realize HR was being as big an obstacle as it is.

          I think if there’s enough that you like about this job to stick it out, you’ll have to accept that you will be doing 100% of the work trying to make it work with supervisor and X. It’s possible that supervisor will get tired of being mad at you and fade back into normal, which might help. And obviously X isn’t affected by any of this because she’s the source of the problem.

          Personally, if I got any pushback from X in a face to face conversation, I would make email my next step every time. Think of it like you just lost the cell phone connection; the reasonable alternative is to email. They can tell you not to make it your primary form of communication with X but it is perfectly reasonable to capture a repeated request on email.

  149. Beth Anne*

    Do you respond to rejection letters that come from indeed? I applied for a job and they told me I wasn’t suitable for the job. I’m tempted to reply but not sure.

    Although who knows it was a 2 line job posting….I really wanted to respond snarkily and say do you think I live too far away?

      1. nep*

        I did recently, to a rejection email that didn’t seem like a form letter. The person responded back in a friendly way. (I think she was shocked.)

  150. Some kind of anonymous*

    Is it a dealbreaker for a job if you have to use Windows? I had a phone interview for a role and the use Outlook and other MS Office products. I’ve used it extensively before but now work in a Mac/Google Suite environment and I get so much more done with it. I’m very out of practice with Windows and if I did get this role, it would be a learning curve to get back to using it day to day. TBH, I’m kinda turned off by it.

    I’ve gotten so used to cloud based office prices that the idea of (IMO) going a step back technology wise is a little frustrating.

    Having said that, I can’t say I’d theyrnusing MS Office 365.

    2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Having to use a Mac would be a dealbreaker for me, so it would be silly of me to object to you not wanting to use Windows. :) I’ve only used Macs a couple of times since grade school in computer labs, and each time it was a really unpleasant experience, whereas I know a lot of good shortcuts for Windows and know how to work within its quirks/limits. My learning curve for working in a Mac-only envronment would be much bigger than yours would be for a Windows one, and while I could probably do it if I had to, I’d probably wind up annoyed and frustrated a lot of the time, I think.

    3. Book Badger*

      I’m also a huge Mac person (and I find it exceedingly obnoxious that on Windows, stuff like non-English letters or symbols require memorizing long strings of numbers instead of just option+[key]), but so many places use Windows that I would be cutting out huge swaths of jobs.

      Depends on your industry, of course: graphic design, for example, essentially requires Macs and a company that exclusively uses Windows would be the odd one out.

    4. Nacho*

      I’m not great with a Mac, but I think learn to use one if it was the difference between getting a job I otherwise liked and not. And like Book Badger said, most places still use Windows, so you’re seriously shooting yourself in the foot if you reject every job that doesn’t let you use a Mac.

    5. Chaordic One*

      No, it wouldn’t be a deal breaker. I have always had to switch back and forth from Windows to Mac and back again. You get used to using whatever you’re stuck with. It kind of becomes like being bilingual and not that big of a deal after a while. If the other aspects of the job seem O.K., give it a chance.

  151. Book Badger*

    So I got an interview! Yay! But now I’m second-guessing myself! Aaah!

    The job was advertised as a legal internship – I applied even though I’ve graduated from law school already and so really can’t do internships anymore. I’m only interested in the position as a stop-gap while waiting for my bar results to come in. When they wrote back, they referred to it as a legal assistant job – and when I sent a clarifying email, they said it was an internship with assistant duties.

    The problem is, what if by “internship” they meant “unpaid”? My loans haven’t quite kicked in yet and I’m living with my parents, so I’m not in dire financial straits, but I can’t afford to live in that area of Massachusetts with no pay at all. But I haven’t even interviewed, let alone gotten the job – am I counting my chickens, or is this a red flag and I shouldn’t bother?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Go to the interview and get more information. I would like to think that a legal office knows the law surrounding unpaid vs paid internships and since they also said it’s a legal assistant position, I would guess that there is compensation involved.

      1. Cactus*

        Agree. Go to the interview and ask for clarification. Even if it turns out to be unpaid, just thank them for their time, say that unfortunately you’re looking for paid opportunities at this time, and hope that you’ll cross paths with them again someday. It’s a totally reasonable thing to do.

        I was in a similar situation a year ago. Graduated from my master’s, moved to a new city with no connections, applied to a full time internship with administrative duties. It wasn’t clear to me at all whether it was going to be paid – so I went to the interview and asked. Thankfully, it was paid and the job ended up being more of an office admin even tho my title was intern.

    2. nep*

      Every internship I’ve seen advertised notes up front whether paid or unpaid. Is it pretty common not to have that clear in the beginning?
      I for one would want to know up front before using your and their time. But I suppose there are some benefits to going through the interview (the experience, getting acquainted with them/meeting in person)…

  152. dorothy zbornak*

    does anyone else feel like they get paid a lot of money to answer extremely dumb questions? lately my job has been that – and if the person took 3-5 minutes to think for themselves, they probably wouldn’t have had to ask me to begin with. are they just lazy? am I too reliable? it’s frustrating.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Not in my current position, but in previous ones, absolutely.

      In my experience people are exceptionally lazy and want everything spoon fed to them and when you are a reliable type of person, it’s really easy to get frustrated.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      Yup. Recently got to track down all the 3 to 5 gallon buckets that went missing. Found the location, ransomed some buckets back for use. Then a truck got stuck at our guard shack because he kept saying he was supposed to get an empty haz waste tote from us. Well, we ain’t got one, so I just told him there’s none here set up for pick up and sent him on his merry way.

      I have thought many a time over the past week that they are paying me an exorbitant amount to spend a day tracking down kidnapped buckets. I’m pretty sure I’m the person being asked because 1) I’ll actually listen to a problem and 2) I’ll attempt to get resolution for said problem or redirect as necessary instead of blowing them off entirely. At least, right now for me, it’s good for an entertaining story and a break in the day’s normal work.

  153. Not Just An Admin*

    I had a phone interview last week to be a team lead doing work I’d really like to do more of, and then got the call from the recruiter that the hiring manager wants someone with actual past experience managing people. (The recruiter liked a lot of the experience I do have, and thought I could transition well, but the fact is that my people management is very limited and only through a volunteer position at my church.)

    I’ve had this come up before, and it’s as frustrating as ever: if the hiring manager won’t hire you to manage because you have no management experience, how the heck do you get management experience?

    I’m great at administrative work but want to do more. My boss often tells me that my other teammates praise the way I help them with new processes and have cross-trained them to parts of my work. I received a ton of praise for how I led my volunteer committee at church and they were disappointed when I had to step down, and leadership is happy to see me coming back into more leadership roles with other groups.

    How do I get all this together to have someone give me a chance to break into that management level?

    1. OyVey*

      Volunteering is a great way to get some of that experience, but maybe not at a church. Taking a lead position in a school PTA/O or community organization or chairing a committee, for example. A small non profit may need a “manager” for a specific area and be willing to give you a volunteer title if you do the work well. The small non profit route could work well for you because of admin background. If an org needs someone to “manage” their administrative side in a volunteer capacity, a position in which you work with leadership to generate new content, for example, that could look really good for you. You’d probably need to hold that kind of volunteer position for 2 to 3 years for a consistent number of hours/week though to really give it the kind of experience employers are looking for.

  154. HereKittyKitty*

    Curious to see if anybody has experience with this issue at work.

    I work at a relatively small company. We have about 50 employees, but most are customer service. We have a side of the office that is all the behind the scenes people and everybody seems especially close. I feel like this context may relate to my question. There seems to be a big diet culture at the office. Lots of talk about what everybody is eating, weight loss, bodies, goals, exercising, all that stuff. I personally find some of this talk unnerving. I’m a big “health at every size” person, not commenting on people’s bodies (especially coworkers!), and generally find this talk yuck. I’ve had a lot of body issues the past 3 years or so when a new medication caused a 30-40 pound weight gain. This new body is a little different than my old one, but I’m happy with myself! However, with all this talk I’m starting to feel pressure to have an opinion on diet stuff, or perform diet culture in some way, or I’m worried if I ever do lose weight I’ll have about 10 people pointing it out! It makes me anxious!

    Have any of you had this issue at work? How do you block that mess out? I understand that if you’re close with your coworkers it might feel like you’re loving and supporting them on their “fitness journey” or whatever by making these comments, but damn if I hear one more “you look so small in that outfit” or a brag about how much weight someone lost while SICK, I’m gonna lose my shit.

    1. JennyFair*

      Oh yuck. I was the only woman in my location for several years, and had finally got the guys to all take their weight-related convos elsewhere (by interjecting HAES information every time they had their conversation in my office) and now we’ve hired a second admin, and she’s dieting and injuring herself by randomly taking up running without preparing.

    2. Kat in VA*

      /personal commentary about eating disorder further down for folks who are sensitive

      Here’s another more annoying thing – folks are less interested in HOW you got to that “goal weight” rather than the fact that you are AT that goal weight.

      I am fairly skinny. That’s not a humblebrag, it’s the truth. People ask me, “Ohhh you’re so SKINNY you have four KIDS how did you DO IT???”

      And I’m brutally honest. I don’t eat clean, work out five times a day, mindfully meditate the weight away, run ultra marathons, or do literally anything else healthy.

      So when the weight talk starts (along with the “Betcha eat like a bird, hmmm?” or “SHARE YOUR SECRETS” or “You must be on an amazing meal plan”), I shut that shit right down with, “Well, I smoke like a chimney, and survive on Red Bull – both of which are appetite suppressants, so I don’t eat much.”

      People are so consumed with the end product that they’re not as concerned with how you get there. I know I’m treating my body horribly, but I also don’t want Becky in Accounting to feel bad because even though she’s counting all the calories and exercising assiduously and has good vital statistics, she’s maybe not losing weight as fast she thinks she should or as fast as people are telling her. And she’s definitely not getting positive feedback from anyone around her.

      But Becky in Accounting is way, way, WAY more healthy that I am with my crappy diet and exercise habits and terrible addiction to nicotine.

      I wish people would just stop judging everyone by their dress size and just…get on with their lives. I’ve been on both sides of the equation – unhealthily overweight and unhealthily underweight. And people shamed, offered advice, and made comments about the former and had NOTHING but praise for the latter…even when they found out that I was so damned thin because I was anorexic/bulimic.

      “But you…look so GREAT! Maybe try not…throwing up so much? I think the just not eating is better for you than throwing up.” Oh my god, really??? /bangs head/

      Harrumph. I am also a subscriber to HAES, and I think people should just keep their mouths shut and their eyes to themselves unless they are specifically, explicitly, 100% invited to be involved in the process of losing, gaining, or maintaining weight.

      1. Save your forks*

        Thank you for saying all this. It would be so much better if we could all just stop commenting on each other’s bodies, especially in a work environment, even if we think it’s a “compliment.”

        1. Kat in VA*

          I agree. You never know if someone looks SO SKINNY because they’re having tremendous emotional issues at home and can’t eat, or they’ve been really sick, or some other thing that they can’t control. Or if they’ve gained weight because of a new steroid medication, or a bad knee that’s finally gone out, or just…reasons.

          Better to focus on less personal things, like, “Hey, that’s a FANTASTIC skirt, where’d you get it?” or “Oh, I love those shoes, they’re amazing!”

          Commenting on someone’s body – and specifically their weight – is such an icky personal thing to do, and even more so in a professional setting.

      2. HereKittyKitty*

        That’s my other reason for a “keep it to yourself” attitude. What if you’re triggering someone, or reinforcing negative habits, or “positively” commenting on the result of a medical illness? ugh. Like someone put a scale in our breakroom. What is even happening??

        1. Kat in VA*

          I can say definitively my biggest triggers for restricting/purging were the comments on how “good” I looked. I didn’t look good. I looked like shit. My skin and hair and eyes were dull, I was gaunt, I was freezing all the time, my periods stopped, and all I ever thought about or talked about was food.

          Not “good”. Not at all. Maybe I looked good in pictures if you didn’t look toooo closely, but no.

          But someone would gush OOOH YOU’RE SO SKINNY when I’d start to climb out of the hole and I’ll fall right back in again, thinking, “I may look good but I can look BETTER!” Eating disorders are insidious, terrible diseases.

        2. Brownie*

          The company wellness program had a scale put in my building’s common kitchen. Just having it there has caused people to start talking about weight where before it wasn’t a topic which was ever brought up in the office. Every week I have to jam headphones on to block out the weight talk that stirs up my ED issues and it’s all because those scales made weight into a workplace acceptable topic.

          1. HereKittyKitty*

            Ugh that’s awful. My friend worked at a place that tried to do a wellness program and brought in people for measurements/weight and she refused to participate. It still shook her up pretty bad. Yuck.

            I’m thinking I can get better at saying “Please don’t comment about my body” if it ever occurs. Most of the time I’m too stunned and just say “thanks” and hurry along.

      3. nep*

        I wish people would just stop judging everyone by their dress size and just…get on with their lives.
        GAWWWWD yes. Seriously it is awful how hooked so many people are on physical appearance.

      4. Anonymom*

        Thank you for this, Kat. I’m parenting a newly diagnosed kid with an ED and she has had a shitty summer trying to start recovery. She is thin, and also has an alarmingly low heart rate and it takes a valiant effort to get every mandated meal down plus supplement drinks. Her friends are fantastic, but the next adult who praises her for being “so thin” is going to get an ass-kicking from this mama bear.

        1. Kat in VA*

          Ass-kick away. Adults don’t know how much damage they do with reinforcing the notion that “thin is best, at all cost” to kids. I hope your daughter comes through with flying colors.

    3. Ron McDon*

      I work in a place where everyone seems to be obsessed with dieting, calories, exercise, healthy eating, weight … you name it, they talk about it.

      I used to be obese, but lost 3 stones over the past year from altering my eating habits and exercising more.

      I was really upset the first time someone that I work with noticed my weight loss, because I knew this would be the start of people commenting on it – and sure enough, lots of separate comments about how I look good and how did I do it etc etc. I appreciate the nice sentiment behind it, but I don’t feel comfortable talking about mine, or my colleagues, weight at work. I still have weight to lose, my colleagues are mainly all slim, and it feels ridiculous that they’re praising me, when i’m still larger than they are!

      I haven’t found a way to say ‘I don’t want to talk about this’ without it sounding stand-offish or out of sync with everyone else.

      What makes it worse is that the only other very overweight woman I used to work with went on a health kick, lost a lot of weight, started exercising, looked great, then developed anorexia and has been sectioned in an anorexia facility many times over the past few years, and is currently unable to work. The people here who were her cheerleaders and encouraged lots of talk about weight and exercise with her before she was sick don’t appear to have realised perhaps they should stop the weight talk at work.

      One colleague of mine says things like ‘do I look like I’ve lost weight’ or ‘do I look fat’ – Ugh.

      It’s hard, I have no suggestions, sorry.

    4. Girl friday*

      Guys are just as bad about worrying about their looks and what they eat. Lots of men have eating disorders. My daughter and I always say, “How’s the weather?” Or you could change the topic to sports! Headphones also work. Everybody has to eat to live, so I don’t think that’s changeable.

  155. MeowYorker*

    Last week, I posted about a direct report (Fergus, though my Fergus is awesome) who requested 3 weeks off in September for vacation (https://www.askamanager.org/2018/08/open-thread-august-3-4-2018.html#comment-2096401). Thanks for everyone who gave me a ton of great advice! I wanted to post an update.

    I wanted to make it happen for him, so I went to my manager to see if I could borrow someone from another department to partially cover for him, since I wouldn’t be able to cover for him for that long while holding down my own fort. He is a customer service department of one, so we’d need someone’s butt in seat while he is gone. I basically did everything everyone suggested–asking Fergus to come up with ways to mitigate the impact on me, which he did; bringing up the cross-training aspect; and referring to the 2- to 4-week vacations others in the company have been taking this summer.

    Unfortunately, my manager’s response was basically “Sheesh, the nerve these people have!?!” She shot down all of the arguments with a dismissive attitude, and it became clear pretty fast that it wouldn’t go anywhere even if I’d pushed further. Fergus was visibly disappointed when I told him that he’d have to stick with a 2-week vacation instead, but he’s been a good sport about it all after I explained some of the reasons behind the decision.

    In retrospect, I probably should have known my manager won’t be supportive. It still makes me a little sad, though, to see her perceive our people as moochers who “only” work 8 hours a day, “threaten us” to get pay raises and just don’t realize how “replaceable” they are. I’m probably too accommodating sometimes (I’m on the fence about 3 weeks myself!), but I also feel like managers/companies perceiving employees as if they were always out to out-cheat you is such a vicious cycle…

    Anyway, it didn’t turn out the way I’d have wanted, but thank you everyone for the awesome input. It was great to know that there are others out there who feel the same way about employee happiness, too!

  156. Alina*

    I have a question regarding what type of resumes to use when you’ve only been able to find contract work and have been unemployed for a year or more. What do HR/career advice reps have to say about skill based resumes? I’m currently in the process of updating mine and I don’t want to mask my work history, I still want to display my skills before having the chance to explain my situation prior to an interview (if I get selected for one). The resume style I have now lists my skills/accomplishments in specific areas (e.g. customer service, office administration) then it’s followed by my chronological work history (listing the job title, location, organization, and dates). Is this a good idea or is it okay to leave it as is for now?

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      What I would do is put the relevants job skills and accomplishments WITH the job information, to make it clear what you did where. I’m not sure what you mean by “masking your work history”?

      You can also have a section called “Relevant Skills” where you list them with no details (eg: Excel, including pivot tables); just don’t let it be too long — maybe 5 lines tops? And still list that info with the specific job.

  157. Excited For Potential Dream Job*

    So after a couple of rounds of vetting and writing tests, I had a phone interview on Wednesday for a job that I’m really excited about getting, especially as someone who just graduated in May. I was expecting them to get back to me within a week, as that was what they told me, but they got back to me in less than 24 hours and I passed through to the next round, as a skype/google hangout interview! The only issue is that . . . they scheduled it for October 5th . . . That’s almost 2 months from now. Is there any way to respectfully ask for a sooner interview without sounding whiny or impatient? I’ll be speaking to a team of people so I understand that it can be challenging to find a time when everyone is available, but I feel like two months is a long time to wait. Any advice?

    1. It's me*

      They probably have a reason for scheduling so far in advance. Is this a particularly busy time of year for them? They might also have many candidates or need to keep the position posted for so long before taking interviews to the next level. If it was me, I would not ask unless I had interviews with other companies scheduled sooner or an offer.

    2. Cactus*

      I wouldn’t push them to reschedule for an earlier time in fear of sounding impatient, like you mentioned. But I’d re-frame your follow up email to them as asking for clarification, because scheduling an interview for two months out is not really standard. Say something like, “Thank you for the interview invitation. I look forward to meeting with the team! Before I mark this down on my calendar, I wanted to double check on the interview date since I noticed that it is two months away. Is October 5th the correct date?” (You can phrase it so that it sounds nicer, but you get the gist)

      1. Cactus*

        Ah, I wasn’t done with my comment yet! But yeah, I wouldn’t outright ask them to change the interview date unless you’re in a hurry (like you have an offer from another company that needs you to respond immediately). Clarifying the interview date with them might give you some insight into their reasoning though. They might come back and say something like, “Yes, October 5th is the correct date. We know it’s far away, but that is the only time where our entire team can gather due to conflicting travel schedules”

    3. It happens*

      I think it’s fair to ask about their desired starting date – this sounds like campus interviews for January recruitment.

    4. Jerry Vandesic*

      A sooner interview is not going to help you. Even if you schedule one before October, the others they are interviewing will have theirs in October. They will wait to interview everyone before they make an offer, so if you interview successfully tomorrow, you will wait two months for an offer.

  158. Come on Now*

    I sit in an open plan office and just asked my coworker if she knew she was singing aloud and she said yes and I said could she not it’s distracting (also hella rude????) and got a dirty look in response and just sometimes I wonder what goes through people’s minds. Also open plan offices are a scourge.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I once had a coworker listen to opera at full volume in a cube-filled office. Several of us went to ask him to maybe use headphones, please, it’s disruptive, thanks, but we still had to involve the head of department to get him to stop. People are weird. And open offices suck.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        Conversely, I had a roommate in college who listened to music using headphones but SO LOUD that I could have sung along with what she was listening to. I suggested that it would be LESS distracting to me if she just took off the headphones, since I liked the music, but she said she preferred to listen with the headphones. I ended up needing to leave the room because it was more distracting to hear across-the-room-but-through-headphones music than it would have been to listen to music at full volume. People ARE weird.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          He was……odd. It was a group of chemistry TAs in a cramped cube farm, that also had tables for group study sessions for the students. 99% of people were very careful to not be super noisy or take up too many tables, and then there was the Opera Guy.

            1. Kat in VA*

              I’m taking that “unique” identifier in the vein of “Bless your heart…” /sensible chuckle/

            2. Environmental Compliance*

              IIRC he got a decent amount of complaints from students because his method of teaching was rather lacking, in that he bounced from topic to topic and couldn’t stay in the right chapter. If they’re learning about chemical symbols, they are not yet ready for differences in reactions between isomers. Brilliant chemist, but also very, very eccentric.

      3. AnotherAlison*

        Along these lines, what’s with the people on the plane who watch videos on their phones or tablets with no headphones? I was behind two business travelers yesterday who were doing this. Even when you’re by the engine, it’s loud and irritating.

        1. Snark*

          The guy sitting next to me coming back from Brazil a week or two ago was doing this. Nah fam. Asked him to put on headphones or turn it down.

          1. Margery*

            It would be good if they had air stewards in open plan offices who you could complain to and they had to go and tell them to turn it down.

    3. Anonymosity*

      I had a coworker once who played her radio over her speakers. I very politely asked her to stop, and she said she didn’t know how to turn them down. Seriously. By the fifth time I had to ask her, I was a little less polite (like “Dolores, would you please turn down your radio!” in an exasperated tone), and she went to management and told them I was making her feel “unsafe.”

      She got moved to another cube. Nothing happened to her and I was reprimanded. I haven’t worked there for a long time, but that still chaps my britches.

      1. Radio Daze*

        I had a co-worker who listened to political talk radio (mainly, the guy at lunchtime who is probably the first one who comes to mind when you hear “political talk radio”) loud enough to be heard at least one office away. Everyone was afraid to complain–even our manager–because she had a reputation for filing “hostile work environment” complaints. Even people who probably agreed with her politically found it annoying. We didn’t really talk politics much in that office, so I was never totally sure who was on what side, but we certainly found common ground in not wanting to listen to her radio.

  159. Lumen*

    So, if you think your boss might be quitting soon (like…next week) and there’s two likely internal candidates you think might possibly replace her, and one of them is you… what do you do?

    On the one hand, it would be a significant pay increase, and (despite the sharp learning curve) I think I could do the job.

    On the other hand, I see the work-life balance and stress levels of my bosses and… it makes my skin crawl off and run away. I’m not sure that’s worth anything they could pay me.

    On the other other hand, maybe that’s just the choices they’re making and I could set better boundaries.

    On the other other OTHER hand, all of this may be moot because my boss may not get this other job, they may offer it to the other person (though she turned it down last time they offered this exact role to her), they may hire outside, they may not even backfill the position and will just re-org somehow.

    I don’t knoooow and I’m overthinking this but I want to be prepared.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      If you have the chance to apply, I would do it. The caveat is that the role somewhat fits with your future career plans and what you are actually good at and enjoy doing. Sure, there is potentially more stress, but it could open doors outside the organization that are not open to you now, if it doesn’t work out for you at the current company. Plus, better pay, which can be exponential down the road.

      Of course, while I’ve been at my same org for a while, I’m the kind of person who has said yes to opportunities and moved around a lot. I have other coworkers who have done the same role since college in the 90s and are happy with that.

      1. Lumen*

        I’m glad you wrote this, because the truth is: this is a job. I come here, do the things, and they give me the moneys. Other than that, I do. not. care. about this company, this industry, or even this career track. I sort of fell into it at my last job and it had a higher pay potential than anything else I’d been doing. I think I would actually be a lot more fulfilled at work in a completely different type of work, but I’m also fairly comfortable not getting my fulfillment from my job.

        So… you actually helped me clarify this for myself a lot more. It’s not just the stress of that higher role, it’s the fact that I would need to invest more in this role/career path than I honestly want to, and for me, that might mean taking away energy from things outside of work that I want to protect.

        Thank you!

  160. KayEss*

    Welp, got my official letter from the state today that my UI benefits are exhausted. A slight downward blip in the official unemployment rate for the government to brag about. Meanwhile still seeing the same jobs being posted over and over that I’ve either applied to without response or declined to pursue because they’re terrible. There’s one that was open when I was first laid off, and I saw re-posted again a couple weeks ago… the panicky part of me is kicking myself for backing out of the interview for that one, but the sensible part of me knows that the red flags I saw that were giving me anxiety nightmares won’t have changed.

    I’m doing okay at making peace with the fact that getting into the kind of work environment I really want is probably more of a ten-year plan kind of thing than a RIGHT NOW kind of thing, but there’s also stuff that I’m just NOT willing to put up with anymore, right now… and of course that just makes me scared that I’m not actually good enough at what I do to deserve that.

    2. Anonymosity*

      Are you me? I feel the same way. It’s frustrating as hell to see the same jobs get reposted when you interviewed and weren’t chosen, or were never contacted. But that kind of makes me feel like I’ve dodged a lot of bullets.

  161. Jessen*

    I feel like this has probably been covered before, but…is it acceptable to take a sick day for interviews?

    1. Pollygrammer*

      It sucks to feel dishonest, but it’s frequently the only option if you need to keep the job search on the DL.

      I’ve amused myself by saying “oh, just a stomach thing” when I really meant “I can’t stomach working here anymore.”

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Or “I had a bad headache” and not adding “and its name is YOU.”

        (Honestly, I’ve never used a sick day for anything other than illness, for reasons of my own, but I think it’s acceptable when your other options are limited, as they often are.)

        1. Jessen*

          Yeah, I have zero schedule flexibility, personal days aren’t a thing, and vacation has to be scheduled pretty far out. So I don’t really see another option. I’ll try to schedule for my day off, but I can’t guarantee it.

    3. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I’d say it depends. Are you out of vacation? Do you get limited vacation or is it going to be hard to get a day approved on as short of notice as you might have for an interview? I have definitely used sick time because I only get two weeks of vacation here. At OldJob, I had 4 weeks and never touched my sick time unless I was sick.

      1. Jessen*

        It’s mostly the notice thing – you have to give 3 weeks notice for vacation here, and even when you do that there’s a good chance that you could be denied. Plus once you put it in you’re expected to wait about a week to find out if you got it, and you’re not allowed to take time off if someone else has put in for it already on that date. Really to be assured of time off you need about 6 weeks lead time. I can’t see an employer waiting for that long.

  162. Villanelle*

    I work in a university department that handles interviews for programmes we offer. At present, our interview process is done via email, we chose the day and the slot but we are looking to go online and have the interview slots etc be able to be chosen by the potential student.

    Does anyone have any good/bad things about such a system?

    TIA :)

    1. Nanc*

      I’ve never done this for interviews but my hair place started using such as system and I LOVE it! I can go online and see when my favorite stylists are free and what works with my schedule.

      Is it possible to sign up for some 30-day free trials of the software and evaluate them among staff/student workers? Sometimes great marketing sells a mediocre product so it might be worth it.

  163. topscallop*

    Seeking advice! Here’s the background: My husband and I want to relocate to start a family. He wants to change career fields, which seems feasible in the new state, and he’s currently applying for remote jobs so his job is less of an issue. I have been hoping to transfer to my company’s office in this other state; in fact, part of the reason I took this job was that they have another office outside of DC where I could see us living. I mentioned this in my interview process. However, I brought up the issue again with my supervisor as part of my performance review discussion last week, and she thinks it’s unlikely I would get approval from grand boss for this, at least not until I’m more senior in the organization. The company does let people relocate and telecommute, but she’s right that it’s typically people at higher levels or who have more valuable technical expertise. She’s looking into other options for me – if I could get on projects that are based out of the other office, it’s a possibility to move, but that is iffy since they have people on those projects without enough work to do. She also preemptively told me that she would hate to lose me but would understand if I wanted to leave (I was straightforward that the reason we’re looking to relocate is to start a family). I don’t want to leave my job, I actually really like it, but I’m in a place where I’m feeling much more passionate about having a baby and a house and a dog and a garden. It could be my biological clock, or some amount of the bloom being off the rose in my career, but I feel like placing more value on the personal side of myself than on the career side at this point in my life (I’m 31, married a year if that tells you anything).

    I’ve been in this job a year and 3 months. I was in my previous job 4.5 years. Before that I was in grad school, and was in my previous job right out of college for 2 years. So here are my questions:

    Will it look job-hoppy if I start looking for a new job in new state by next spring (almost 2 years into this position)? Will potential new employers be open to a candidate who lives elsewhere and wants to move? What do I say to them about relocating that doesn’t sound like: “I will immediately get pregnant once I start this job and then need to take maternity leave as soon as it’s available”?

    Thanks in advance for any advice!

    1. Villanelle*

      Will it look job-hoppy if I start looking for a new job in new state by next spring (almost 2 years into this position)?
      – no it won’t, there is a reason why you’re moving after all and 2 years is a decent stint, esp as you have a 4.5 yr one before it. I think people think waaaaay too much about this.
      Will potential new employers be open to a candidate who lives elsewhere and wants to move?
      – yes of course they will. just explain why you are looking to relocate
      What do I say to them about relocating that doesn’t sound like: “I will immediately get pregnant once I start this job and then need to take maternity leave as soon as it’s available”?
      – nothing because you don’t know if/when you will be pregnant. no point ruling yourself out of jobs or putting the cart before the horse.

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Unless you are in a unique field, that definitely won’t look job-hoppy at all. And since you would be looking for a new job because you are relocating and not just getting bored/fired/etc, that also works in your favor.

      I don’t know specifics about companies hiring people who plan to relocate to their area, but I know that Allison has definitely talked about this a bunch. You should check the archives for this topic, it should help you with your search!

      As for your third question, I’d focus on why you’re choosing that location to start your family, not the fact that you’re moving there TO start a family. Like if you have family in the area you want to be close to, did you used to live there and always knew you’d return someday, is it your dream city, etc. Those are all good reasons that companies will totally understand that don’t immediately scream “incoming maternity leave”. (Not that you should have to pretend you don’t want to have kids soon, but it is the reality we live in.)

      Good luck with everything!

  164. Should I track all my work hours?*

    I’m not a therapist, but let’s say I do get paid the way a therapist might. I meet with clients during time that they have booked with me and they pay me for that specific increment of time (usually an hour). My question is, should I keep track of how much time I spend doing other work related things that I don’t get directly paid for, like fixing my website, or doing research in my field? Does anyone with a similar work arrangement do this and find it helpful? The way I work now, I may have 3 hours of work that I bill someone for in a day, then I might run some errands, do laundry, work a bit, have dinner, do another two hours of ancillary work. I don’t know many people who work this way and I do wonder if I am “doing it wrong.” Thanks for any advice if you’re in a similar situation!

    1. Graciosa*

      Short answer is yes.

      The reason is that you are running a business – admittedly a small business, but you still need that mind set. Good business leaders are always evaluating how that business is performing and thinking about how to make it better.

      For example, could you automate the ancillary work and free up more billable time? Would it profit your business to outsource some of the ancillary work – or hire someone to do it part time for less than you would make doing billable work?

      If you’re not tracking your business-related investments (including your time) and corresponding returns, it’s had to do that analysis.

      Track your time with a business-owner’s mind set.

    2. Antilles*

      Yes, you need to. Even if nobody sees it but you, it’s extremely valuable to see just how you spend your time…because the human mind is really bad at judging these kind of things if you don’t keep actual records. After you’ve done it for a couple months, it also allows you to check trends and figure out weak spots to improve on (and/or subcontract out).

  165. Marcy*

    I’m a new manager who was promoted above my peers, and there’s been a lot of resentment about it. I actually did not even apply for the job, but it was offered to me and I decided to take it. After six months, I thought things had mostly settled down, although there are a couple of people who are still obviously unhappy. Recently, I heard through a friend that there’s a lot of rumor and speculation about how/why I was promoted. I wasn’t given any details as to what these rumors could be, but it was hinted that they’re pretty bad. I’ve tried to ask some people frankly what these rumors are, but I’ve only gotten blank stares. I don’t want to rat out my friend, and as the Manager and the subject of the rumors I know that it’s awkward and unlikely that people will tell me, but just knowing that there are these terrible, amorphous rumors about me running rampant in the office is wrecking my peace of mind. I think part of what fuels the rumor is that I never showed any interest in the job. I never wanted it, and basically only took it because the person who was gunning for the job was an awful, toxic person that I did not want to be managed by. I was actively job hunting when I got the unexpected promotion. I am concerned that people will think my sudden promotion meant that I was secretly gunning for the job all along, and ruin my credibility as an open and honest person. At the same time, it would be completely inappropriate and unprofessional for me to ever reveal to my directs that I didn’t even want the job. For some of them, that would be rubbing salt in the wound because they wanted the job but weren’t chosen or even considered as a candidate. Any advice on what to do?

    1. Yorkshire Rose*

      Part of being a manager is having thick skin, because as someone in a leadership role, you will always get criticism no matter what you do. The bright side is that as long as you are acting professionally and fairly, the rumors will eventually go away on their own.

      1. Graciosa*

        Agreed.

        I would add that part of your job is not allowing toxic employees to undermine your team’s performance. If you let nasty-minded gossip affect you, you’re not doing your job.

        I absolutely understand that it is hard to know that something is being said without knowing what or by whom, but attempting to ferret it out will be 1) giving it too much of your mental energy, and 2) causing you to take actions that will not help your reputation as a strong and capable leader with her mind firmly on the team’s success.

        I’m sorry you’re having to deal with it, but conquering this will make you a much better manager in the long run – good luck.

      2. Marcy*

        Thanks…I guess I just have to have faith that the rumors will go away on their own and hope that the gossiping and sniping won’t drive away my good employees. I should have more faith in the rest of my team.

    2. Susan K*

      I’ve seen this exact situation where I work many times. People get appointed to management positions with no application or interview, and others are resentful. Hell, even when there is an application and interview process, there are always people who feel that the person selected didn’t deserve it and was given the job for some reason other than qualifications. This isn’t a great answer, but from what I’ve seen, the only thing that will really help is if you do well in your new role. Prove that you really did deserve it and people will stop speculating about other reasons you got it. No matter how awesome you are, there will probably still be a few disgruntled employees who will keep saying these things, but they will start to look foolish. I have a couple of coworkers who are terrible performers but keep applying for management positions. They gripe about how unfair it is every time they’re rejected, and the rest of us just kind of roll our eyes.

    3. OhGee*

      “the person who was gunning for the job was an awful, toxic person that I did not want to be managed by”

      This person almost certainly the source of the rumors. Do you have the ability to hire and fire people? If so, I’d directly address any awkwardness/crummy attitude you witness (especially if it’s coming from the toxic person). Give people the opportunity to speak their peace and make it clear that continued negativity/drama/rumors will not be tolerated/risk their job. Other than that, ignore the rumors, meet them with a blank stare, or otherwise act as if you don’t care, even if you do. Rumors at work are like fires that feed on insecurity rather than oxygen. Don’t feed them and they’ll eventually go away.

      I’d also never let people know you didn’t even want the job. If you intend to keep it, it’s best to own your new role – project confidence, work hard to be a great manager, and don’t take any crap from jerks.

      Good luck. After dealing with several really toxic people at my current job, I’ve become convinced that things don’t truly get better until they’re gone. Hopefully if you starve these rumors to death, the toxic person will leave.

  166. Amy Farrah Fowler*

    I need help with a mental hurdle I’m having trouble getting over. I work from home 100% (our corporate office is several states away and probably 3/4 of our FT staff work from home as well). What I’m having trouble with is when it makes sense to take sick time. I am salaried and so I get my job done (even if it means doing a bit of work in the evenings or on a weekend). We get fairly generous PTO and my boss is reasonable, kind and understanding. Mentally though, I just hate the idea of taking sick time since it’s not like I am “sick and unable to work at all” but more often than not it’s “I’m not feeling great, and may be less productive than normal, but could take a nap for a little while and then work in the evening if I need to get things done”.

    I hate to lose PTO time when I know that I’m (eventually) going to get the work done and that is mine and unless I specifically ask for help from others, I’m owning my work. I’m planning on talking to my boss about this next week, but do you think it’s reasonable if I need to step away for a couple hours sometimes, as long as I come back and finish my tasks for the day/week? I’ve been in my role over a year, and have gotten overwhelmingly positive feedback (and a promotion a few weeks ago recognizing how well I’ve done).

    1. Graciosa*

      Talk to your boss.

      I don’t want people to feel that they MUST keep working when they’re sick. It’s my job as a manager to make sure that work that truly has to get done can get done even if someone is unexpectedly unavailable (what if you were hospitalized, for example). I don’t ever want my team to think work takes priority over health.

      That said, my team is staffed by professionals who manage their own calendars, and I care more about productivity than I do about butts-in-chairs from 8-5. It doesn’t bother me at all if someone takes a few hours off during the day for any number of a host of legitimate reasons (doctor visits, service people calling, children’s school events, naps, and sanity-restoring walks around the neighborhood are all fine with me). I generally want to know enough to make sure the work is covered for our clients, but that’s it.

      But that’s me and my work place – I recommend you just talk to your boss and find out how she wants things handled. I like those conversations because I can get a sense for the side on which my people are likely to err (assuming no coverage is available, for example, or worrying about missing an IM during a nap) and provide reassurance.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If I were you, I’d have absolutely no problem saying “this is what I’m expected to accomplish in a week, and I’m accomplishing it,” even if that week included a long Thursday afternoon nap because I wasn’t feeling well.

    3. blink14*

      Has anyone at your job ever mentioned this being an issue, such as not being able to reach you, delays on finishing a project, etc?

      I would say if your hours aren’t strictly set, and you feel up to doing work in bursts and then resting, don’t bother with the sick time. If your hours are very strict, it would make sense to maybe take a morning or afternoon off and relay that to your supervisor, or suggest making up the time in the evening. For example, if you have a cold and you worked in an office, you’d probably go in but not be as productive, that’s normal. Now say you had the flu, you wouldn’t go in, and take the sick time. Again, normal. If I were you, I would base it on whether or not you would go into a physical office or not, depending on how you feel.

      I work mostly from an office, but when I take sick time, I clarify with my manager if I will be checking email or be totally offline for the day. I make an effort to check my email a few times a day unless I’m really, really sick. When I do work from home, I keep the same hours that I would be in the office for, but may take short breaks through the day, depending on my work load.

  167. Bumpjumper*

    Hi! I’ve lurked on here for years but finally have something to say! After staying home with my shorties for 12 years, I accepted an offer yesterday and will start working 30 hours per week when school starts! I’m really looking forward to it, but curious if anyone has any logistical tips for me—I’ve got 4 kids in 3 different schools and a husband who leaves for work at 5:30 am. My day won’t start til 9:30, so I can get everyone out the door just fine, but it’s the post school-pre dinner craziness I’m a little nervous about. I think I’ll get home around 4:45. My husband is an equal partner in terms of household duties, child care and cooking (I really hit the jackpot❤️) but he doesn’t get home til 5:45 and by that point everyone is gnawing their hand off, so I need to take care of dinner most nights. I know this is all over the place, but I’m ready for any and all advice you have for me!

    1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      meal-planning and freezer meals! Also, you don’t say how old your kids are, but can the older kids set out snacks for the younger ones? Giving them all “jobs” and routines may help.

    2. Snark*

      Meal plans. Make a little table, write down every meal, all the ingredients, any notes you need. Rows are days, columns are meal, produce, protein, dairy, aisles. It’s both planner and shopping list and reminder that oh yeah I was going to use up the parsley in the soup.

      Get an instant pot and keep some cheap braising cuts – chicken thighs, beef chuck, pork shoulder – in the freezer. If you’re caught sideways without dinner, throw a protein in the pot, cook for 35 minutes, shred, make tacos or put it on polenta or make a soup (add canned beans or potatoes or whatever) or or or.

      If you have a grocery store that does online ordering and pickup, use it. You get an hour of your life back.

    3. Rey*

      This is a great time to give your kids a chance to grow and become independent. If your oldest is 12, that is definitely old enough for basic cooking functions. Assign them dinner on one night of the week–it might not be perfect made-from-scratch chicken cordon bleu, but if its mostly edible and doesn’t give you food-poisoning, it will be worth it. The other kids should also have age-appropriate assignments (setting the table, cutting veggies for a green salad, etc.) And be kind to yourself-depending on your family and finances, it might be worth declaring a weekly or monthly pizza/takeout night. You’re doing great!

    4. CynicallySweet*

      Depending on how much your oldest is you could make feeding the others one of their chores – have them take a food safety course first though (the local high schools usually have them around here). That’s what we did growing up and even though my Mom says it kind of made her feel bad and like she was putting too much on me, I’ve always disagreed (funny how my Dad has literally never said he felt this way)! I am now a pretty solid cook because of this and I felt like I was really contributing to the fam (plus my sister got really annoying when she was hungry, I was naturally charming no matter what lol). Also though, if you go this route an emergency $20 stashed somewhere for pizza when things get too crazy isn’t a bad idea (and in this day and age of texting they can just ask where the emergency cash is if it’s needed instead of tearing apart the kitchen).

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Sandwich night is a great thing. So is a dedicated snack drawer in the fridge and/or pantry – assuming the kids will be home from school before you get home, let them know they’re allowed to eat a serving from there.

    6. Roja*

      Seconding the other tips, but also is there a reason why the kids can’t just have an after school snack when they get home and then have dinner at a normal time with your husband? It seems to me like a filling snack might do just the ticket in terms of meal timing but also will probably keep everyone happier (especially if they get hangry like me–snacks have been my best friend!).

      Fast dinners are also good things; I’ve never understood people who expect making dinner to take at least an hour. Find easy healthy meals that take 20-30 minutes to make–there’s a ton of them, and it’s super stress-relieving. I’d also recommend having a few meals in your back pocket that are almost instant for those days when things get really out of hand so you don’t have to resort to going out or ordering in. I call mine the “emergency pizza” because sometimes it takes the shape of a take and bake pizza, but other options are spaghetti, doctored up ramen (with chicken and peas for some actual nutrients), baked potatoes/sweet potatoes, things like that. It really does help. It’s not going to be gourmet but at least it’s a decent meal.

    7. blink14*

      Set up snack bins for refrigerated snacks and pantry snacks, you could do it over the weekend. That way, your kids have easy access to a snack while you or your husband are handling dinner. If you’re picking them up from school, have a snack bag available to them.

      My parents turned to rotisserie chickens a lot when I was a kid, especially when after school activities really ramped up. You can easily get 2-3 meals out of a roast chicken (maybe two chickens for your family size). You could cook up a meal Sunday for Sunday/Monday dinner, or Monday/Tuesday dinner. Crock pot meals can be great if you’re able to run them at night or during the day. Try prepping ingredients for the next day’s dinner the night before or morning of, that way you can grab those ingredients right when you get home and start cooking.

      I’m single, but I like to cook two-three servings of a meal at a time, so I only have to cook every other day or every two days. I usually run after work errands on days where I’m having leftovers. Doubling a recipe would provide at least 2 nights of food for one cooking session. I will say that even as a kid I had trouble eating something more than a few times in a row (it actually makes me feel kind of sick), so I’ve never understood the concept of cooking a huge batch of one thing and eating it all week. I’d prefer to alternate days that I cook and only eat the same thing a couple of times.

      1. Bumpjumper*

        Thanks for all the great tips! To clarify, we will definitely do some type of snack when kids get home, and have dinner all together once my husband gets home-I just meant that he’s probably not going to be the one cooking during the week, since he wouldn’t get started til 5:45. He does most of the cooking on the weekends, so I don’t mind. During the school year we were pretty good about meal planning, but with summer, most of that seems to have flown out the window, so it’s time to get back in the habit. I will definitely be having my kids help (they are 6, 7, 9, and 12), and it’s probably going to be necessary to have a big family sit-down to talk about how we all need to pull together to get stuff done. The masochistic part of me wants to watch it all burn once I start working, just to hear my family say “oh Mom! We didn’t realize how much you were doing behind the scenes to make our family run so smoothly! Will you ever forgive us for taking you for granted??” The realistic part of me is making chore charts and preparing to live in a state of flux for a while:)

    9. WalkedInYourShoes*

      4 years ago, I went back to work full-time. Here is what we did and still use when both of us have a tight schedule:
      * Saturday morning: shop at all the necessary stores to stock up on food, you will be absolutely exhausted. We usually hit Trader Joe’s, great local meat and vegetable italian store, Nob Hill (similar to Raley’s), and Whole Paycheck. Recently, we started using Raley’s eCart where you can order everything online, schedule date and time when you want to pick everything up; then, you pull up to a designated spot, someone comes out and loads the groceries into the car – last 5 mins. – pay for groceries ~ $200.00 per week and drive away. Super happy with this service.
      * Sunday major laundry and last minute things to do
      * Dinners will vary. I bought a Crockpot book and once a week, I put the ingredients in the pot, turn it. I leave specific directions next to it. On other days, I have my friend/teacher/neighbor picked food on the way home or I use Yelp’s takeout feature to have it ready for my friend to pick up.
      * Carpooling. Always have a backup. Someone will get sick and you will need to get you child to and from school. This is true for you and your husband being stuck at work or traffic.
      * Calls. I check in with my child as soon as I get off of work to say, “How was your day? I am on my way home, etc.”
      * Calendar. Get a calendar and put everyone’s schedule to see if you need a backup
      * 2nd Freezer. We bought a second freezer from Costco to keep additional frozen foods just in case.

      Hope these ideas are helpful! And congrats!!!!!

    10. Quandong*

      My first suggestion is to make allowances for feeling exhausted from going back to paid work after being at home with your children. It may take more out of you than you expect!

      Plan to not ‘cook from scratch’ at all on school days for the first week back (at the very minimum – you may decide to not cook on weeknights ever again).

      Work out how to get food on the table in the evenings with the least effort possible while you adjust to your new routine.

      Make a list of meals that can be assembled in 5 – 10 minutes from ingredients you don’t need to cook e.g. frozen vegetables, noodles, protein such as tinned beans or tofu, or rotisserie chicken.

      Have a list of emergency foods in your phone & husband’s phone so either of you can make an online order from work if need be.

      If you don’t have a chest freezer, consider investing in one. Make bulk batches on weekends, clearly label the containers. Set alarms and reminders for getting frozen foods out of the freezer.

      Teach your children how to put their lunches together (if they take lunch to school).

      For yourself, if you can tolerate them, buy some protein shakes to keep at work. They have saved me from much hanger when I don’t have the time to source food elsewhere.

      Good luck!

    1. CAA*

      Yeah, I read about this earlier. Apparently there’s one for each MS Office application, and you have to be a student to enter.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      This was rampant a few years ago. “Were solutioning for teapot shortages” “We need to solution for that.” ARGH! What’s wrong with solving?

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      Mine is “inferencing,” which I learned this week is now being used as a synonym for “inferring.” I don’t know if Inferencing kidnapped Inferring and put it in a locked room somewhere, but I desperately want Inferring to get out and come back. “Inferencing” is an imposter, and no one can make me believe it is a real word. Not yet, at least.

      1. nep*

        Many people also say infer when they mean imply. Yuck.
        And impact was not meant to be a verb, people. (One of many pet peeves.)

    4. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Mine is not a jargon, but a phrase that is my least favorite, “Take it to the next level.” Ugh!!!!

  170. Quake Johnson*

    Does anyone have any suggested scripts for when a job candidate calls to check the status of they’re application after you’ve already decided you’re not going forward with them? Is it kinder to be upfront about it or to just say the decision is still being made?

    1. CAA*

      If the decision has been made, tell them. “I’m sorry but we’ve decided not to move forward with your candidacy.”

      1. CynicallySweet*

        Above is a good thing to say, but how many letters do we read on here where someones like, ‘I called and they said they’re still working on it, what does that mean’

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      Tell them. Job hunting is already shitty enough to candidates. No need to lie to their faces.

      1. Kat in VA*

        This. Exactly this. Time may move faster for those on the hiring end, as in, “Holy cow, three weeks have gone by!” but I can definitely assure you that it’s very, very slow on the candidate end.

        I’d rather be told UP FRONT and RIGHT AWAY if you’re not moving forward with me, instead of letting me sit for days on end wondering what the hell is going on.*

        *Yes, I know, you’re supposed to submit to job / phone interview / in-person interview then put it out of your mind, but I’m only human and I really, really would like to start working again so it can become all-consuming after a while.

    4. Antilles*

      It’s better for *both* of you to just be upfront and straightforward about it.
      It’s better for them because they don’t keep mentally holding out hope and they keep moving on with their search. And it’s better for you because if you say “it’s still being made”, that will probably result in them following up again later.
      The key trick you need to remember is that This Is Not A Discussion. Just give a short polite statement and leave it at that (CAA’s language is pretty perfect). If they try to push back or argue your decision or launch into a description of why you should reconsider, you’re under no obligation to listen – just interrupt with a simple and polite “I’m sorry, but our decision is final. We wish you luck in your job search, goodbye” and hang up.

    5. Villanelle*

      I would tell them that a decision is still being made and then subsequently (a day later maybe) send them an email telling them they’ve been unsuccessful.

      I would not be having a conversation on the phone for many, many reasons but not least relating to: bad signal, them being rude to you, them trying to “talk you out of it”, them mis-understanding you.

      Having it written down – paper trail, no ambiguity.

      1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

        Yes, definitely this. And with the volume of applications, you probably don’t want to train applicants to call. I’d have a stock answer of “Due to volume of applications, we are unable to provide status updates” Then if you get emails/voicemails from people you know you’re not moving forward, you can send them a polite rejection.

    6. Amtelope*

      Tell them! And if this is happening a lot, it may be a sign that you’re not sending rejection letters in a timely way. If you have a form email already written, then as soon as you’re certain that someone is in the “no” pile rather than the “maybe” pile, you can add their name, fire off that email and avoid ever having to have the awkward call.

    9. WalkedInYourShoes*

      “Hi, Sam! Thanks for calling and following up with us. After meeting with the hiring manager and interviewing team, we have decided to move on to other candidates.”

      If you like them though, good to keep a pipeline of good potential candidates for future, I would say, “”Hi, Sam! Thanks for calling and following up with us. After meeting with the hiring manager and interviewing team, we have decided to move on to other candidates. However, we would like to reach out in the future if a role does match your background and experiences.” Luckily, this was key in my last consulting gig, because literally 1 week later a role popped up for this candidate, we interviewed the person and it was a good fit.

  171. Red*

    What do people think about inviting only some coworkers to your wedding when you work in a very small office?

    My office has about 13 people, and I want to invite 6-7 of them. I would invite everyone, but weddings are expensive, and there are a couple of people I definitely don’t want to have there.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      One rule of thumb is that if you invite more than half, you should invite everyone. I don’t know that I subscribe to that rule, I’m just saying it’s out there. I think as long as you’re not sticking invites in people’s mailboxes, you’ll be okay.

    2. Drew*

      I think inviting half the office and not the other half will look like a snub. In a slightly larger office, I think you could get away with “We had limited space so I only invited my team,” but in a tiny office, that won’t fly.

      Congratulations on the upcoming marriage!

      1. Forking Great Username*

        Yeah, I agree. Think you need to pick just a small number of people you’re closest with.

        1. Anon today*

          Yes. I think one or two and then making sure NOT to talk about the wedding at work would be the best way to go.

  172. Keeping my head down, doing my job*

    At an industry event last weekend, our CEO and our event planner got into a yelling match complete with profanity. I wasn’t there but several of my coworkers reported it to me in essentially identical terms.

    Yesterday, CEO and event planner sat at a table in our open office and had an acrimonious exchange about that event (paraphrasing – CEO: “It is unacceptable for you to respond that way when I am telling you something you need to do.” EP: “It is unacceptable for you to respond in kind and I need you to quit screwing around with my event planning.”) that was also attended by a C-level because CEO was “afraid for their safety,” which is bollocks.

    Rumours are rampant about upcoming redundancies. The general sense in the office is that if EP isn’t let go when other people are, there’s no fixing the management here and it’s time to bail. Some of us are thinking that anyway. Morale is in the cellar, no surprise.

    1. Jerry Vandesic*

      “… I need you to quit screwing around with my event planning.”

      CEO needs to fire the event planner, today. Surprised that hasn’t happened, but it might be the next step.

      1. WalkedInYourShoes*

        agreed. If I spoke to one of my CEO’s like that, I would be collecting unemployment.

  173. Nacho*

    During my last one2one, my boss came to me with a laundry list of new expectations, mostly involving taking an insane amount of notes on everything I do, and then informed me that my quarterly review is looking shaky because I wasn’t already following them. Should I push back and tell him it’s not reasonable to grade me on expectations he never told me about? Or just keep my head down and, now that I know what he expects, do my best to meet them and hope that’s enough to salvage my review?

    When I told him that nobody else takes such detailed notes (he wants me to write a summary every time I email a client in case somebody else needs to follow up on my case and can’t be bothered to read my emails) and that none of my previous managers ever asked me to do so, he seemed genuinely surprised, like it’s something he thought everybody was doing.

    2. WalkedInYourShoes*

      What type of role do you have? director, manager, individual contributor level?

      In a previous role, I have had concerns brought up by managers of what my team has done. So, I started publishing weekly communications. Then, I set up a system to track who has open the link to the weekly communication, who tried to reach out to someone on my team, and metrics, etc. Or you can send him a weekly status report if you are not required to do one yet.

      One of my former colleagues was required to something similar of what you do. So, I recommend, bcc’ing the mgr. to be kept in the loop. Eventually, the manager did not want to know. He asked to be taken off of the communication.

      Then, you can share your calendar with him so that he can see what meetings you have. Hope this helps!

      1. Nacho*

        Individual contributor, but the issue isn’t asking for an unreasonable level of notes, it’s that he asked me for them 2/3rds into the quarter, then told me I wasn’t hitting my targets because I wasn’t already doing it.

        1. WalkedInYourShoes*

          After you mentioned this, here’s some things that you might be able to do. Remember these are examples:
          1) Client #1. Spoke to BigBoss every Friday to finalize BigTeaPot initiatives (For detailed information, emails and communications are in the database.)
          2) Client #2: Issue with X. Created action items. Results still pending (For detailed information, emails and communications are in the database.)
          3) Client # 3: Issue with Y. In planning staging for steps towards a resolution (For detailed information, emails and communications are in the database.)

          Then, schedule time with your manager to go over your “summary” and your accomplishments/targets which you believe you met. Then, ask what would he like to see differently in them.

          BTW, this will also help you update your resume in case you decide to look for a new job.

          Keep me posted!

  174. DrTheLiz*

    I passed my PhD viva :D I’m so relieved.

    I have minor amendments to make, which is dispiriting and exhausting, but still. I’ve Shown Them, Shown Them All :D

    3. Snark*

      Congrats! Finishing my defense was like getting let out of a cage. And don’t worry about the minor amendments – almost everyone I graduated with had some fixes to make.

      1. DrTheLiz*

        I’m not worried so much as annoyed – I knew there were typos in there, but the external wants the structure made worse. Don’t get me wrong, my attitude is “yes, boss” to the list I’ve got, biut it’s dispiriting to have to reopen something I was “done with”.

  175. nonymous*

    I just came across a job ad I’m interested in which states “Highly professional in both appearance (business attire) and communication skills”. My female coworkers wear maxi skirts and Lularoe, and most days I work from home with my dogs. I’m also overweight by about 20#.

    Any recommendations for what kind of wardrobe they’re looking for? large company in the PNW.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I hate to depend on stereotypes, but considering they’re in the PNW, I wonder if “highly professional” means “everyone thinks we’re really laid-back and casual because of our location, but we expect you to dress the same way you’d dress if you worked in Chicago or NYC?”

      1. Snark*

        That’d be a whole lot less dispiriting than my interpretation. And man, wow, do I love the PNW after being up there last week, but wow, is a fleece vest and flannel shirt like the year-round uniform or what?

        2. LCL*

          Well yeah, what else is there to wear? Though I haven’t seen too many fleece vests lately, as we have been having 90 degree weather and we’re dying out here. I think Murphy and Alison are right. Additionally, I think professional in communications skills means you must be willing and able to handle phone conversations, and use emails for business instead of text.

        3. periwinkle*

          In the summer, we switch out the flannel for long-sleeve t-shirts to wear under the fleece vests. Still have to wear the socks with sandals, though, you never know when it’ll get colder than expected (or sunnier than anticipated, because sunburnt feet are painful).

          I agree with Rusty’s interpretation. The PNW has a reputation for being very casual and overall that’s accurate. This company is alerting applicants that their work culture is not like that, and that’s a helpful heads-up. Yes to pantyhose, no to Nerf battles.

      2. Plague of frogs*

        Yes, that’s exactly what it sounds like to me. The whole conversation on AAM a few weeks ago about having to wear shoes in the office astounded me. Why would you have to wear shoes if it’s not a safety requirement??? They’re trying to weed out people like me.

      3. Glomarization, Esq.*

        I lived in the PNW for about 10 years, worked in businesses ranging from law firms to internet start-ups, and that’s exactly how I would interpret it. “We are not casual like everybody else. We are a suit-and-tie office.”

    2. Snark*

      Maybe I’m cynical, but this sounds like “no minorities, fat people, or people we wouldn’t go out for beers with”, dressed up in a highly professional business suit.

      2. Lissa*

        Whoa, that is not the interpretation that would occur to me! Though maybe I’m the weird one – for me my first thought was “we have had people show up in their pyjamas/clubwear who swear at the job interview, please don’t do that.” I live in the part of the PNW that is the PSW of Canada, and I’ve seen many of those things come up, lol.

      2. Kat in VA*

        “Highly professional” to me reads as “Suits and ties for men, suits and/or sheath dresses and blazers for women” but I’m in the DC area so my take might be a bit skewed.

        As far as the 20# overweight comment, you don’t have to be a perfect size 4 to look professional and polished!

      3. Elisabeth*

        Ditto this. If the attitude culturally is more laid back in general, this to me would read as business casual not, “we don’t like unattractive people.”

        For personal experience: I’m about 80 lbs overweight, but I have nice business clothes, and I wear heels and make-up on job interviews. I’ve never felt like I was rejected for my weight or my clothing.

  176. HRGoneAwry*

    I work in an investigative role in HR. Think we go to tribunal, we investigate serious allegations (sexual harassment, discrimination, workplace violence – threats of violence, fights, etc..) when brought forward by workers and customers.

    I’M EXHAUSTED. I’ve been in this new role 3 months and it’s just exhausting. Thier processes are all paper-based. I spend more time with the printer than I ever have. I did a similar role 3 months before thisthat also included projects etc.. so I had a break. But honestly, this role is just depressing and I feel drained emotionally.

    Can I leave this soon?

    1. Legal Rugby*

      I work in Title IX, and this is pretty common for us. First, CAN you leave? Absolutely. I took a job three years ago, and before I could even withdraw from my other positions, I realized it was ethically and emotionally horrible, and that I had been lied to during the interviews. I was gone two month later, having accepted a job I had interviewed with before I took that job. The question is – what next? Do you stay in an investigator role? Do you want to stay into the field, so you move towards advocacy? What questions do you ask to determine paperwork vs. project ratio at the next place?

      You can always make a quick move work. Just make sure you aren’t jumping into the next situation without figuring out if its a place you want to stay 2-3 years to make up for it.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Does your company offer an EAP? This sounds like the kind of work where you’re going to need some professional help dealing with how it makes you feel. At least until you can get out of there.

  177. Anonymosity*

    *sigh*
    /vent

    Friend works for a huuuuuuge company (very high-tech) and he posted their careers page, saying they were desperate for applicants. I found a publications job and applied. I’d have to obtain a clearance–I can’t think of anything that would disqualify me, except student loans, but everybody has those (they’re not in default). I would also have to move to Colorado, which isn’t my first choice; at least it wouldn’t be here. He seems to think I’m a shoe-in; he said “They just want someone who can write; you’ll get all this training if you have basic skills.” Suuuuuuure. I doubt I’ll even get a response.

    Literally no one is responding to me. For anything. Some construction company rejected me the other day for not being qualified. Honey, I have more than ten years of admin experience and I think if I can handle all the documentation for a whole consulting department in a field in which I’ve never worked, I can file your stupid paperwork. The longer I’m unemployed the harder it will be to find a job because apparently that means I’m not worth anything.

    Please, just kick the universe in the goddamn balls for me. /vent over

    1. Snark*

      Good luck! I hope you get responses soon. Colorado is really a lovely place to live, so don’t count it out.

      1. Anonymosity*

        Thanks. If I got this job with this company *highly unlikely; why did I even bother* I could get a transfer eventually, as they are also where I want to be.

        I just need someone to give me a chance. I cannot go any further in admin work. And now everyone is asking for previous industry experience when they never did before (i.e. a standard admin job, but wants experience in healthcare because they can’t be arsed to train anyone in HIPAA). :(

  178. Marketing Dinosaur*

    This is a question about resumes; specifically in the field of marketing.

    I am hiring for a social media person, and the resumes I got back were uniformly different from any other resume I’ve seen in the past in this field. They were all “designed” — by that I mean, they were extremely clean in look, used sexy (but tasteful!) fonts, had sidebars with iconography (e.x. an image of a phone and home to denote contact info), some had professional headshots, and were overall more concise than resumes I’ve seen and written for myself.

    I think this must be specific to social media, but I have to say, after looking at them, I felt compelled to change my own because mine felt like from another era. I don’t want to fall behind the times (and at 35, I already am a dinosaur in digital marketing!), so I wanted to poll this group to see if this is becoming the norm in marketing and if it’s something I should seriously consider.

    FWIW, these resumes did not come off as part of a fad to me. I was really impressed with the design and how much more compelling they looked. I wondered if it was signal of a change of norms. It’s why I’m even asking.

    1. Elisabeth*

      From my friends in Marketing, this is a lot more normal than my field (accounting) or my partner’s field (law). We’re expected to have much more staid, time-honored bare bones resumes (in my experience, obviously). But all of my marketing friends, social media and otherwise, view their resume as a portfolio. Basically, this is ME. This is my style, this is my vibe, this is what I bring to the table, both aesthetically and in terms of skills.

      1. Marketing Dinosaur*

        It’s so funny, because I feel like I’m an accountant sitting in marketing — I love data, Excel, an introvert, not super creative in an artistic sense (NOT shading my accountant brethren, I wish I had gone into your field!!) — and so the idea of a portfolio gives me the heebies.

        I would have said even in marketing jobs, “designed” resumes were tossed out until even just a few years ago. I genuinely feel something has shifted, which is why I’m worried.

        At the same time, I am NOT a creative type, so to have that kind of resume would misrepresent who I am. I think making some subtle shifts to my resume (i.e. making it less wordy, choosing an elegant but readable font) makes the most sense.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I’m older than you and I do work in social media and digital communications.
      I’ve seen this style resume with the (hate to say it) millennial and younger crowd, and it’s especially common with creative fields such as web design, graphic design, communications, social media and some marketing positions. It’s also much more common with people right out of school who don’t have a lot of work experience. All that resume sexiness kind of hides the fact they only have had 1 or 2 jobs!

      I don’t think you see this type of resume with seasoned pro’s with 10+ years experience who are moving into management roles where more details and results are expected to be seen on the resume. And a headshot, uh no thanks! Talk about ways to be eliminated at a glance without ever looking at your qualifications.

      However, these type of “summary resumes,” can be useful for some things, such as putting on your social media, for recruiters, and for job fairs where you might just want to spark interest or conversation. But I would always, always have a “plain vanilla” detailed version as well.

      1. Marketing Dinosaur*

        This is super helpful to hear, especially since my goal is to continue along a path of seniority, and not being an executioner of social, the latter of which would make me represent myself differently.

        And to be fair, the comment you make about masking limited experience is exactly how my VP responded to some of these resumes, so you’re right — it doesn’t immediately dazzle everyone either.

    3. KayEss*

      I think there’s a balance that can (needs to) be struck… a designed resume is good in some fields, but over-designed is almost always going to be bad. Social media in particular can be kind of an odd field, as employers generally want someone who has good design instincts for creating one-off graphics but aren’t necessarily requiring a portfolio or other samples during the hiring process. (Also it’s a field where I can see self-promotion via “standing out” and successful personal branding as being genuinely valued rather than a waste of time.)

      I personally came out of art school bearing a meticulously designed resume with an elegant layout, and immediately found that it was completely unreadable to the automated online application systems that most companies relied on. (One of the many ways in which even the best universities are behind the curve on career advice. They also wanted me to create a portfolio website… in Flash.) I quickly switched to a basic (but still neat and well-designed for clarity) Word doc resume. However, that was about ten years ago–now that so many systems let you import work history and other data from LinkedIn, it might be less of an issue.

      If you want to use icons for contact info or whatever, I’d say go for it! But ultimately the work experience and achievements should speak for themselves.

      1. Marketing Dinosaur*

        This is a great comment — thanks!

        I think ultimately, I’m going to keep what I have, but take some pointers on making my content more concise and using a few design touches to look modern. But as MissDisplaced mentions, I am ultimately seeking positions of higher seniority and NOT in an execution role, so the more conservative approach is ultimately better.

    4. From a Recruiting Professional*

      I am on the recruiting side. Please note that these fonts, pictures, colors, formats, etc. do not transfer well when uploading into most applicant tracking systems. Oftentimes, the ATS will parse the data from the file, e.g., PDF, Google Docs, Word, which becomes illegible in the required fields, e.g., replacing the first name with the some other word, etc.

      I like it when the marketing candidates have links on their PDFs to other sites for their portfolio, e.g., dribbble.com, personal website, etc.

  179. Bjork*

    My boss recently told me in my one on one that I have potential and she wants to keep me, blah, blah, but that I tend to mumble and she doesn’t want this to hold me back. I had no idea I was doing that and it’s really not as easy to fix as it might look. Any strategies? Also, do you find mumbling rude?

    1. Dent*

      Personally I know I tend to mumble more if I’m not making eye contact with the person I’m talking to. I’m not autistic but I do find eye contact uncomfortable at times. So I try to remind myself periodically to look up, make eye contact and that seems to help me enunciate and speak clearly.

      FWIW, I don’t find mumbling rude but it can be irritating when I don’t understand what the person mumbling is saying and I have to ask one or more times for them to repeat themselves.

    2. Jennifer Thneed*

      Please get your hearing checked. Even if you’re young enough that it seems odd. The odds are decent that you mumble because you don’t hear yourself the way others hear you.

      I don’t find mumbling rude, just frustrating. I want to know what you just said! (Except in the case of the rude people who mumble (rude stuff) in public for plausible deniability. They’re rude.)

      1. Bjork*

        Thank you for your suggestion! My hearing is fine, I suspect I might have auditory processing disorder and/or ADHD. I definitely don’t hear myself the way others do (in certain situations I’m too loud and in others I’m too quiet), I just need actionable advice because it looks like my job in the near future might depend on it :(

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          And in the immediate now, make a point of facing people when you speak to them. It will make a difference if they can see your face & mouth.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s not that mumbling is rude, it just makes it harder to understand you. And yes, it can hurt you professionally. There is mumbling that IS rude (under-your-breath kind of stuff), but more often, I encounter mumbling that simply makes you difficult to be heard. My partner mumbles in social situations, and it gets really frustrating because servers can’t hear him and I have to repeat everything he says. A work situation like that would be doubly frustrating.

      Try a speech pathologist. They handle all kinds of situations. I had to go to one when I had laryngitis, and she worked with me on raising my register, which also helped with my tendency towards vocal fry.

      Also, it sounds like your boss is practicing Radical Candor with you, which is good– it means she honestly wants to help you.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Is there a Toastmasters or other public speaking type group in your area (could even be something like theater or improv)? They are pretty good about giving feedback on this type of stuff. If not, do you have a friend you can practice with? I think if you practice speaking out loud while getting feedback, you’ll get better attuned to hearing yourself and finding the right volume. One thing to pay attention to, or have a friend pay attention to, are if there are any words/sounds that are particularly difficult for you to enunciate — for example P sounds in words. You can probably find a diction exercise online like actors use (tongue twisters like Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers).

      I don’t think mumbling is rude, but it tends to convey a lack of self confidence.

    5. Chaordic One*

      I don’t really know what to say. Mumbling can be considered rude if you’re saying something that you really don’t want your boss to hear.

      However, it may be that it’s really not about you, it’s them. Or in this case, your boss, who might have a hearing problem. Do not speak softly. However, you might still find situations where you try to speak and enunciate more clearly and more loudly, and then they tell you they still can’t hear you, so you speak even more loudly and then they ask you why you’re yelling at them. Often it’s kind of a “no- win” situation.

  180. Ann O.*

    How do you people keep in touch/keep networks open with former co-workers in a way that is professional rather than trying to be friends?

    I have a couple of co-workers from my recent contract and previous job that I like and respect as co-workers. I would like to keep in touch both for personal connection reasons and for networking reasons. But I don’t want to become non-work social friends. I like to keep pretty rigid boundaries between my personal life and my professional life, and I could end up working with them again. (Also, it’s entirely possible that if we got to know each other better in a social friend way, we would have very incompatible political views.)

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I would say LinkedIn is the best way to stay in touch for former coworkers for networking purposes, along with occasional emails if so inclined. If you’re a little bit closer, you could opt to have the occasional coffee, lunch and/or meet up at a professional conference or something.

  181. Feeling Nauseous*

    I’m still shaking from this conversation earlier. I don’t really need/want any advice – I just need to get it out so I don’t throw up.

    A few coworkers were talking about Ohio State and Urban Meyer. Suddenly it starts getting heated. And Fergus shouts, “If I go home and (God forbid I do this) smack the sh*t out of my wife, would I lose my job?”

    Another coworker yells from his desk, “Let me put it this way, with how women and MeToo and everything is in 2018? You bet you would.” And it wasn’t a pleasant tone. It was a it’s-ridiculous-that-women-are-making-such-a-big-deal tone.

    I mean, I know both of these coworkers so I’m not surprised.

    But….man.

    I feel like I’m going to be sick.

    2. Elisabeth*

      Oh God, that is awful.
      I know this is probably scary, but is there a designated HR person you would feel comfortable speaking with? It doesn’t have to escalate beyond that point, but I think it is ABSOLUTELY fair to go to an HR representative and say, ‘This conversation was held in the office today and it made me feel extremely uncomfortable and unsafe.”

      That is a valid complaint and concern.

      1. Dent*

        I would 100% be requesting time to speak with an HR rep about that. What an incredibly inappropriate conversation to carry on at work.

      2. Feeling Nauseous*

        If we had HR in my office, I would.

        But they’re located in our corporate office several states (and a timezone) away. Plus….they’re kind of useless. They just handle our benefits.

        And, honestly, it wouldn’t do much good. They’d send an email. Everyone would privately snicker about whoever they thought complained. It’s part of the environment here (which has steadily declined). Just adding this to the umpteen other reasons I’m looking for a new job.

    3. Kat in VA*

      Oof, the top of my head would blow right off and it wouldn’t be pretty.

      I’m right there with you on feeling sick.

      I’m sorry.

    4. Save your forks*

      UGH. I can’t imagine how frustrating it is to work with people who talk like this and have to be professional and courteous in the moment. Does your manager ever overhear this crap?

      1. Feeling Nauseous*

        He does.

        A few weeks back a woman here got some flowers from her boyfriend. He, his boss, and a few other coworkers were making jokes about “It must have been some kind of night” and “What details did you leave out from last weekend?”.

        He doesn’t care.

          1. Feeling Nauseous*

            By applying to jobs. I’m stuck here for the foreseeable future – but I’m not stuck here for forever.

        2. nep*

          NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
          (I know–this is more common than we like to think about but jeeeeeeeezus really people? F-ING HELL.)

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Poor Fergus. It must be awful, knowing that you might lose your job if you commit a crime. :-/

  182. Forking Great Username*

    I don’t think it’s rude, but it can make it difficult to communicate clearly, and it makes you much less likely to come across as confident. I would just spend some time trying to be more self aware of your volume/clarity when speaking. One of those things that’s difficult to work on unless you’re actually in the moment of speaking and paying attention to that stuff.

  183. New job and sick update*

    A massive thank you to everyone who offered advice last week about what to say when I returned to work. (Recap, I’m new at work -read just over one month in – have no sick time accrued and had to take a full week off to recover from a radom adult case of hand foot and mouth disease).

    All my colleagues were so polite and friendly! Most just said “so glad to see you are feeling better!” Or “hope everything is ok!”

    With both I would just reply, “thanks so much, I’m feeling so much better and have never been happier to be back at work!” Most ppl just laughed at that and said something like “no kidding, sounds like it was a bad one!”

    Only a handful of people asked me directly “what was wrong with you” or “what exactly did you have.” With one we were in a private area so I actually did name HMFD and explained symptoms when further asked. With the others in those awkward cube moments when you know at least 10 either ppl are listening I just said, “ oh just a really nasty virus, but I’m feeling so much better now.”

    Anyway, thanks again – the scripts ppl provided were so helpful and I’m feeling way better about the whole thing.

    Side note: I’m one week full recovery now and have the grossest symptom- super peeling skin on my hands. It’s awful. Every place I had a rash bump has turned into weird dry skin circle that peels and keeps peeling. I’m hoping it just looks lik eczema. Also to anyone else out there dealing with HMFD, I’m so sorry. It will get better eventually but take care of yourself, it’s truly one of the worst things I’ve experienced health wise.

    1. many bells down*

      I got it while teaching preschool. It’s AWFUL. I couldn’t walk because of the sores on my feet, I couldn’t eat because my mouth hurt …
      I totally sympathize. It SUCKS. And people look at you like somehow you’re nuts for getting it. Like, I worked with toddlers. I spent a lot of time dealing with poop. You’re gonna get *something* eventually.

    2. Friday*

      It seems like there’s a newer, stronger strain out there these days that likes to jump to adults! When my daughter had it over four years ago (she was two) there was no concern from her doc that I’d get it, and I didn’t. But I know a few adults who recently got it from their tots.

      1. Teach*

        My 14 year old got the bad older kid strain last year along with a bunch of high school kids. There was a lot of laying in bed crying about how bad the bottom of his feet hurt – he missed a week of school, and he was not as bad as some of the kids!

      2. Thlayli*

        Loads of adults I know have had it. I got an in house Childminder in part to avoid the millions of illnesses kids pick up in Creche and thankfully we’ve avoided it so far (touch wood).

  184. MissDisplaced*

    Aw Man! Low on the list today. Anyhow… Just wanted to vent a little.
    I left my last job because of an office move to BigExpensiveDowntown City. At the same time, any work at home options were rescinded after the move, thus costing me a pretty significant pay reduction because of the transportation costs. This (and other things) but mostly this, were the last straw and I left even though I liked my work.
    I found out that my replacements (plural-2 people to do the work I was doing, ha!) are allowed to work from home 2 days a week, which is something I had asked to do and was refused. I shouldn’t care, but damn! They were just such liars and hypocrites at that place. It just pisses you off when you hear that. And their stupid HR person is also trying to connect with me on social. Like no, don’t think so.

    1. Argh!*

      Argh! I feel your pain. My boss who picked someone else to head our collectivized departments & laid me off found that simply asking us who wanted to do which revised job would have saved her some headaches. She chose her pet, who quit because he didn’t want to take on my work, then promoted my problem report, whom she then fired rather quickly. I, on the other hand, would have loved the newly-designed position and I would have done a good job, too. (Not bragging, but yeah… I would have!)

      Some workplaces are just too stupid about keeping good employees. So now it costs them more? Serves them right. I hope you went on to a better job.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I did! Similar work, closer, and better pay. But I really liked that job.
        Companies like that are so stupid, and they wonder why they can’t get or keep good talent.
        I hope you gave your company a bad review on Glassdoor and Indeed. I know I did! LOL!

    2. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Venting, too! I feel for you. I went to a company where I was promised a full-time role, but it was a consulting role and the full-time role never materialized. I was the top performer in recruiting when the manager decided it was time to end the consulting gig. Then, I realized this person used me as a scapegoat. Shortly after I left, the manager was not able to replicate my high performance. So, the manager, then, hired 3 regular full-time employees to cover my role and responsibilities. Then, the manager was quietly replace and eventually quit.

      With that, I have turned down multiple consulting-to-hire and contract-to-hire roles. Good news – thanks to the advice here at AAM – I have interviews lined up next week; so far they seem to be a good fit. Cross your fingers that I land a role that matches my background and experiences. I just feel that I am going to be at a better place and job.

  185. Gail Davidson-Durst*

    Just set up an interview for next week – the hiring manager is an old boss who is courting me, so no worries there. But when I interview with the guy who would be my grandboss, I’d kind of like to ask what his approach is when incoming potential work is overwhelming. What I’d like to see is senior leadership making clear priorities and being willing to make hard decisions (like, put off Project Fruitbat till next year because other things take precedence).

    Any thoughts on whether and how to ask about this stuff?

    1. Chaordic One*

      Well, don’t say that “potential work is overwhelming,” as it risks making you look like you can’t handle stress or figure things out yourself. Ask something along the lines of, “How do you establish priorities when you have competing projects with urgent deadlines?” and maybe, “How do you support your employees when they have looming deadlines? When you get the job, use the method that your grandboss has chosen.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah it looks like you would panic and lose all sense if you get too much work.

        There is always too much work. Prioritising is often an employees job as much as their managers. When I have too much I always make a list of what I have, estimate length of time needed for each, and sort it in order of what needs to be done. Then I talk to my boss and show him the list and he might change some stuff around but ive never been told “you just have to do it all”. If you put in time estimates that’s really helpful coz they can give you an idea of if you are way off base in you’re estimate from their experience you might be doing something in way too much detail or something.

        1. Gail Davidson-Durst*

          Thanks – both replies are really helpful!

          I’m actually pretty good at having the prioritization discussion, but at my current job, the grandboss’s attitude IS basically “you just have to do it all,” hence my particular concern!

  186. Save your forks*

    Very curious for opinions on this. My team hired a new person at the beginning of this year. He was a temporary worker whose contract was about to expire and we were aware that he had applied to quite a number of other positions in multiple departments in an effort to stay with the company. Just today, a colleague told my teammate and me that this person had “flipped out” at departments that didn’t hire him and had created a “weird reputation” for himself.

    This recent hire has ended up being kind of challenging as a member of our team. Did we fail to do our due diligence by asking other departments how this candidate had conducted himself in the application process? Or should their have been more communication from departments who had a bad experience with him? I’m leaning toward the former, because I can see why other departments might not want to badmouth a candidate internally. But on the flip side, it seems…useful to have more transparency on candidate personalities within the company’s hiring platform. I can say pretty confidently that my manager would never have selected the candidate had she heard about this behavior. What do you all think?

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      If the person was an employee who got an internal transfer, would your team have talked to this person’s current manager? If so, it does seem reasonable to talk to other departments who have dealt with them as a temp. Those departments who had a bad experience — was that just during the interview process or while he was working as a temp? If the latter, then yes, someone should have talked to someone else’s manager.

      Did you know that he was applying to multiple positions in the company? You might not have! But it sounds like your company is big enough to have an HR department that should have noticed. Maybe there was due diligence that didn’t happen, but it wasn’t necessarily your team’s failure.

      1. Save your forks*

        Great questions all. We knew that he applied to multiple positions because it was visible on our hiring platform software. We asked him about this and he said he just really loved our company and wanted to stay with it.

        My manager talked to this person’s current manager and she said she would renew his contract if she could, so we took that as positive feedback. The bad experience was only during the hiring process. Granted, I’ve only heard this negative information from one person (who has no reason to make it up) but it may be overblown.

  187. Dent*

    My health insurance (through my spouse’s employer) just approved me for receiving a surgery that, while not strictly life saving, would greatly improve my quality of life and health. The approval only lasts through to the end of this year. If I do not get this surgery in 2018 I will have to spend several thousands of dollars out of pocket again to go through the screening process to get approval in 2019.

    My issue is with requesting the time off for surgery and two weeks doctor-mandated recovery. I started with a new company in June and unfortunately have used up most of my PTO because of migraines and my child getting sick. I don’t know how to approach this with my boss at all. I’d like to ask for unpaid leave but I don’t have a good sense of whether that’s acceptable with this company yet. Maybe I just need some encouragement? Thinking about this makes me sick to my stomach because I don’t want my boss to resent me for being absent so much.

    For what it’s worth, in the two months I’ve been here I’ve had nothing to do. The work that I was hired for hasn’t come yet but I’m told it will be later this year. So most of the time I sit at my desk doing nothing. Sometimes another team has projects I can assist with. If I was gone for two weeks I doubt it would create any issues for other coworkers with regards to their work.

    1. Argh!*

      Go for it! All they can do is say no, then you can quit, have your surgery, and look elsewhere when you’re well.

    2. TheWonderGinger*

      I’d phrase it something like,

      I realize given my short period of time within Teapots R Us that I do not have enough accrued time to cover upcoming major event and as I am not yet covered by FMLA I would like to arrange to have XX time off as unpaid leave. Please let me know if this request can be accommodated.

  188. On Hiatus*

    A general question for the brain trust – I quit my job a few weeks ago for health reasons and made no update to my LinkedIn profile. In the last couple of weeks I have had a huge jump in LinkedIn profile views (but not connection requests) from area recruiters, who I am betting found me from seeing my former employer’s job listing as they search for my replacement, and from noticing my absence from the “Who We Are” page on my ex-company’s website. My question is this – should I update my LinkedIn page to show that I resigned? I am picturing recruiters seeing myLI page showing me as current, and the company site showing me as gone, and assuming wrongly that I was fired, and risking limiting my chances to apply for jobs that they are hosting. What should I do? I appreciate all wise counsel here!

    1. Jadelyn*

      Yes – do change it sooner rather than later. A mismatch on whether someone is working for a given company between the company who says “No she doesn’t” and a former employee who, according to her profile, is saying “yes I do”, is a definite flag to me. At a minimum, it says you don’t keep your LI up to date, so I’m no longer going to be assuming that anything else on there is correct or current, which weakens your candidacy if I’m basing my initial assessment off of LI profiles. If I want to read more into it, I might assume you were fired or there was some kind of drama around your departure, or you’re hanging on to something that’s not yours for some reason, and I just don’t want to deal with that, so I’ll move on to other candidates.

    2. CAA*

      Yes, update LinkedIn to show that your last month of employment was 06/2018 or whatever is correct. You should not put anything about resigning vs firing, just list the end date.

      This is probably not affecting your ability to get another job though. What’s happening is the recruiters see the job posting and they want to find out more so they search LinkedIn by company name. You show up in the search results with the same title and they click on your name to see what kind of education you have and what accomplishments you list so they can figure out if they have anyone with a similar background that they could present for the role. Unless you’re the CFO or Director of Marketing or something unique, they are just thinking that there’s more than one job with this title and here’s a way to find out more about it. Even if you do have a “there’s only one” type of title, they will just figure that you haven’t gotten around to updating LinkedIn yet, not that you were fired; but if it’s been a few weeks, now’s a good time to do that.

      1. On Hiatus*

        Thanks so much, both of you! You both have points I hadn’t thought of. I will update LinkedIn today. Great advice.

  189. Elisabeth*

    This is probably way too late in the day, BUT.

    Does anyone want to share The Worst Thing That Happened to Me/That I Did At Work (LIGHT-HEARTED VERSION)?

    Because I have a doozy of a story.

    2. Elisabeth*

      I do warn that this story contains bodily secretions and it IS gross, but it’s also one of those, “I survived this, I can survive anything moments.” However, if you find bodily fluids,etc. gross SKIP THIS ONE.

      I was working at One Of The Biggest Tea Kettles in the World in a Very Big U.S. City. I had recently been put on new medication by my doctor and they warned me it may cause stomach discomfort. From medicine in the past, I assumed this would be some mild cramping.

      I was at work on a Saturday during Busy Time, and had a discussion with my project lead about a task and what needed to be done over the weekend. We’re in the middle of talking and I feel like…I need to pass gas, but I haven’t had any cramping or discomfort all day.

      Well, Reader, it was not gas. I had to sit there for another 5-10 minutes in the Cube Jungle speaking with a straight face as my body betrayed me in the grossest, and most unforgivable of ways.. I didn’t hear another word that was said, ran to the restroom, took care as best I could and then asked my female coworker to cover for me because I got a surprise period (OH, I wish it had been that). Thank the Gods on high I was wearing dark pants and a hoodie.

      Then I had to drive the hour and a half back to my house sitting on said hoodie just in case. I still, to this day, fall into a black hole of wondering if anyone noticed, if anything happened to that desk chair, and if I’ve become office gossip. (I no longer work for 2nd Biggest Tea Kettle and live 1,100 miles away from Very Big U.S. City).

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Oh dear! It probably didn’t go through to the chair unless it was a whole lot… but um, usually when that happens there is a smell, especially if it was due to medicine.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I’m game.
      Worst thing I did at work: I got pretty drunk at a holiday party, made out with a coworker and went home with him. Ugh! But I was very young, and it was kind of not considered that bad aside from the snickering.

      Worst thing that happened to me: Once upon a time, I worked 12 hour long night shifts. Sometimes I would go into the restroom at 3am and imbibe in a little “la coca” nose candy to stay awake. One time I was cutting something on the big cutter after doing this and the clamp came down on my finger. I was sure I’d cut my finger off! I ran to the bathroom to look, and it only ripped off my fingernail. But still it bled and it HURT. I was so scared and shaky. Luckily, no one saw this happen, so I was able to wrap it up. But if someone had seen me, it would’ve been a drug test for sure. That place was pretty bad overall for drinking and drug use (it was the 80’s). I wasn’t the only one by any means. I stopped doing that crap long ago, and I kind of laugh now, but it was a real wakeup call at the time.

    4. Almost Phinished*

      Both great stories to read! (though obviously jarring for you when they happened. Thx for sharing. My worst story doesn’t compare…had terrible diarrhea a few years back, following a stomach virus and the bathroom at work was nearly a 5mon walk away, through a very open office area. I wanted to run there…but couldn’t cause it would look weird. Thank goodness I made it in there every time and it passed after a few days.

    5. TheWonderGinger*

      Recently?

      Walked around with the back of my jeans split down the center, not wearing briefs that day either. My department is pretty casual but we work on the same floor as some more formal departments.

    6. Anon for this*

      I was a paid law clerk at my current (small) firm while I was still in law school. Between school and work at the firm, I was regularly pulling 18 hour days. I also arrived at work about an hour before almost everyone else at the firm except one of the senior partners. On one morning, after a particularly rough week, I stumbled bleary-eyed into the bathroom and was struck by how different it looked. Then I heard the senior partner clear his throat and look up to see him standing at one of the urinals. He said: “This is the men’s room.”

      I don’t even know if I managed to fumble out an apology before I left, mortified. Years later, I worked closely with that senior partner and was promoted by him, but we’ve never, ever mentioned the bathroom incident.

    7. Chaordic One*

      I have this friend from a bad old job many years ago. Anyway, she got an unsolicited email and opened it or clicked on something and unleashed the Anna Kournikova virus into our office’s computer network. She realized what she had done, within seconds of releasing the virus and screamed for help and her supervisors did something that contained the virus to her computer.

      But then the supervisor sent an email to everyone in the office about what had happened and included a screen shot of email that my friend had clicked on, including her email address, so everyone knew it was her and she was horribly embarassed by this. I have to agree that sending the screenshot with the email was a way of shaming her for what was a dum mistake.

  190. Jadelyn*

    Question for anyone who does hiring, either as a hiring manager or as HR support: When do you produce a formal offer letter? Like at what stage of the process?

    Context: At my org, we have to perform background checks before new hires can start – and if the bg check does not pass, they cannot be hired. Our process is: verbal conditional offer contingent upon successful background check, including salary conversation – background check performed and references checked – set start date – produce formal offer letter. We do not do offer letters without a completed background check – managers might put the title/pay of the offer they’re extending to the candidate in an email to that person, perhaps, but it’s not the full on company letterhead with start date, PTO, benefits eligibility date, and signatures version.

    But we have one hiring manager (who is an enormous pain in the butt in a variety of ways, so she’s already on my bad side and I’m aware that may be coloring my approach here) who regularly tries to push us into giving her a formal offer letter for candidates at the time of the initial verbal conditional offer. She’s just sent me another one – she’s picked her final candidate, hasn’t even made that verbal conditional offer yet, and is already asking how soon she can get an offer letter. I’m trying to figure out if our process is in line with general norms on that or if we should consider changing it, because I just know as soon as I say “you’ll get your f***ing offer letter after the f***ing background check clears and you damn well know that” (okay, I know, I’ll try to be more polite than that. Marginally.) she’s going to push back, again, and I’m lining up my counter to that.

    2. BlueWolf*

      I think when I got my current job I did receive an offer letter and received the full benefits and salary information along with a start date, but it was clear that it was contingent on the background check.

    3. Princess Scrivener*

      Could it be she uses the offer letter as her script for the conditional verbal offer? That’s what we do, with emphasis on the pending bg check. Just a thought.

    4. Susan K*

      I’m not a hiring manager, but I do have a job that required a background check and drug test. I received a written offer letter prior to the background check and drug test, and the offer letter stated that it was contingent upon a satisfactory background check and drug test. However, your current order seems reasonable, too. This might be something that varies by industry because apparently, some places don’t ever provide written offer letters (which absolutely shocked me to learn because I would never accept a job without a written offer).

    5. Trixie*

      I used to work in HR and am very familiar with this sense of urgency. In my office, offers must be approved even before extending verbal offers which are contingent upon background check. For those hiring managers who continually tried to jump ahead in the process, we always put on the brakes when needed. Proper approval is required and must be documented, period. The overall process cannot be rushed, let alone skipped.

    6. Someone Else*

      My formal offer letters as a new hire all included “pending background check” because it was only after I signed the offer letter accepting that they’d also give me the form to approve the background check. My experience is a small sample size, but (if I’m reading this right) it lines up with your colleague’s expectations, not yours.

    7. Jerry Vandesic*

      I would need the full comp details (salary, bonus, equity, benefits, PTO, etc.) up front, before I would agree to letting a potential employer start the background check. I understand that it’s all contingent on passing the background check, but would want any negotiation to be completed before the check starts. Obviously the start date would depend on when the check completes.

      In the meantime, I would not give notice to my current employer until after the background check comes back. Also, I would continue looking for jobs with other potential employers and would keep going on interviews. I might find something better while the background check is happening.

  191. Almost Phinished*

    Last week I posted asking for words of encouragement as I worked on final thesis edits. Just wanted to say thanks again – everyone’s response so warm and kind, it helped a ton last weekend and will get me through the next few weeks as I drudge through the remaining edits…and my supervisor’s additional (and hopefully last!) add-ons. Wishing all a good weekend :)

  192. tired*

    I have a full-time, salaried job and have been working at McDonald’s part-time for extra money, but I am burnt out. I want to give my two weeks’ notice for McDonald’s and am trying to figure out how formal it needs to be. Any thoughts from the commentariat?

    1. Elisabeth*

      Honestly? It doesn’t need to be that formal. If you’re not in a terribly senior position (which, if you’re part-time, I wouldn’t assume you are but one should never assume), you’re pretty replaceable and non-vital. I would still turn in a short 2 week notice letter to your direct supervisor, but when I worked for a franchise grocery store, it was actually way more common for part-timers to either quit on the spot or just verbally confirm they were giving 2 weeks. I erred on the side of professionalism, but I wouldn’t worry about too much formality.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I’d say only a week and let the manager know so they don’t schedule you. I doubt they need a formal letter.

    3. Almost Phinished*

      Agree with Elisabeth. When I quit my retail part-time jobs, one back in undergrad, another after a layoff, I wrote a two-line resignation letter based on a template I found online and just handed it in. In fact at the latter job, which was a terrible, toxic place, I gave the letter the day I quit and it was my last day. No one batted an eye, lol, we were glad to part ways.

    4. voluptuousfire*

      I quit a holiday PT retail gig about two weeks before Xmas for a full time and the manager tried to get me to give two weeks notice, which was stupid since I would have ben out of a job by then. I pushed back since the company wanted me to start the next week. The manager then asked for a letter of resignation. Again, I pushed back.

      I think the letter of resignation would be a bit much, but two week notice for quitting should be fine.

    5. Kathleen_A*

      A letter isn’t actually required even in non-McDonald’s jobs. Some places want one just to keep on file, but even there, all that’s necessary is “This is to inform you that I am resigning my position of ____ as of ____ date.” You can add something nice about appreciating the company or wishing it well, if you like.

      All that’s actually required is that you tell your supervisor that you’re resigning and when your last day will be.

    6. Nacho*

      For McDonalds? Just tell your manager. I’m not even sure you need 2 weeks for a fast food job. I know I just stopped coming in, though I was 16 at the time, so take that with a grain of salt.

  193. Mimmy*

    Would I be taken seriously as a job candidate if I have a certification that isn’t well-known?

    I recently began working towards a certification in a niche field – say, Teapot Coordinator. It was originally designed for those wishing to become Teapot Coordinators in state and local government agencies, but it’s grown to attract interest from a range of other individuals who want to show competence and skill. I’ve been wavering off and on whether I wanted to pursue this, but when I attended the field’s key conference in June, I was fairly convinced that this certification could be a good career booster.

    My question is explaining this to potential employers and even networking contacts. As I mentioned, this is in a niche area, so unless I network with people who’ve been to the conference, I don’t think too many others are familiar with this certification.

    If I were to put this on my resume, do I have to include a blurb to explain this for those not familiar with it?

    Actually…should I even put it on my resume, or just mention it in a cover letter? It is not a structured program (you need to amass a certain number of credits via various workshops) so I don’t know when I anticipate taking the final exam.

    1. Chaordic One*

      As long as you are applying for jobs where this might be a relevant credential, then, yes, include it as a qualification. I would probably include it with your education. If you have a college degree, put it under that. If not, then put it at the top of the list above your high school. It certainly would be a good idea to then include a short blurb in brackets to explain what the credential entails. Something along the lines of:

      Teapot Coordinator Certification, Teapot Credentialing Organization of the Teapot State (recognized and required for Teapot Coordinator positions by state and local government agencies).

  194. Swinburne*

    Hi all, I am in the fortuitous situation of being in the running for two good jobs that line up with my immediate career goals. However, I think one is going to be a better cultural fit for me (more interesting variety of work, more casual, creative-led working environment) but they are still about a month or two out while they figure out the full scope of the position. The other is still a great job and would give me the opportunity to become a manager, though the actual work may be a bit drier. Job 2 is also hiring on a fast track.

    So the question is do I accept the good job that is 20% less of a cultural fit because they are hiring now? Do I risk waiting for the other, while there’s no guarantee I will be hired or that once the scope of the position is figured out that it will actually be a good fit for my skills?

    For context, this will be my fourth job and I have roughly 7 years of experience in my field.

    1. Argh!*

      Casual people will also be casual about evaluations, work specs, and raises, so if you reeeeeeally want to be a manager, don’t choose those people. If you can live with the possibility of not supervising people, choose the casual one. (Note also that being a manager in a casual organization can be really frustrating if you have an underperformer you want to discipline or let go of).

  195. BlueWolf*

    I know this is a bit late in the day, but hopefully someone sees this:
    At my recent annual review, I was given an additional assignment and told that if I do well with it I would probably be promoted next year at annual review time. Is this a pretty typical scenario? This is my first job at a large-ish company, so I’m not sure what is normal in the corporate bureaucracy. Also, if people in the positions above me leave (which is likely as we have relatively high turnover in our department and I know someone is looking), do you think I could have some standing to request a promotion sooner or should I just be patient and wait until next year? So far I think I’ve been handling the new responsibility pretty well (including cleaning up a bit of a mess from the previous person), but I could understand if they want to see how I handle the new work for a while before that. Also, for context, I did get promoted last year as well, but mainly because I was originally hired at a level that was a bit below my experience.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      That sounds pretty normal to me.

      As for asking for a promotion earlier, hmm… if something opens up that you think you would be a great fit for, I’d say talk to your boss about it and see what they say. It sounds like they are looking out for your advancement and will steer you in the right direction.

      1. BlueWolf*

        For context, in my position a “promotion” would essentially just be a title change and raise. I’m essentially already doing the work that my coworkers with the higher title are doing, but I’m guessing it’s mostly based on years of experience.

  196. Reality Check Needed*

    I need a reality check from y’all – particularly those of you who do research and writing for a living. I’ve been meaning to post this for awhile, but a recent performance review capping my recent issues have pushed me to ask for advice.

    Context: I work as an Analyst in a client-facing role in which I research and write client deliverables in PPT form. I have been in this role a little more than a year. I’m relatively junior (one notch up from the most entry-level position). Our project timelines have us working on 3-4 projects at a time (though they may be in different stages of progress at any given time.) We are assigned to complete our PPT deliverables in 6 days. However, as we are juggling multiple projects, we are probably spending a total 4 days max on a deliverable. We are expected to have the deliverable 100% client-ready by the time we submit the PPT to our project supervisor. If the supervisor has to change anything, – even copy-editing or formatting – they mark down our project evaluations.

    So far, I have received praise for writing *very* good content that not only answer’s the client’s questions, but a couple of clients have even implemented my recommendations to them. However, I don’t have the best eye for layout/formatting, and my project supervisors always copy-edit to some degree. In general, my project supervisors don’t think I use enough graphics, and in a project I completed recently, I made a total of 2 typos, and my project director complained to my manager about it. For this reason, I did not receive a raise or a promotion this cycle. I was disappointed, but I asked my manager how I could improve my results to be as good as the best performer on our team. She started listing things I had never heard before, including that I didn’t send my daily update emails at a consistent time every day (we have to send daily updates to our project supervisors at the end of every day. I always send mine between 5-6pm). She said that sometimes my emails are not “informative” enough, and I should always summarize my drafts thoroughly in my e-mails. She also alluded to a recent report I did where the project supervisor decided to remove a section header (essentially combine two sections, but not significantly change the content) and said that maybe I could work on my “structuring issues” (Issues I didnt know I had.)

    So, I personally feel like my manager is being unfair, but would love to hear other opinions/insights as this is my first performance review. I feel like my manager does not know what specific results to measure our performance on and is retroactively justifying not giving me a raise. My main questions are:

    1. Is expecting 100% client-ready deliverables in 4-6 days normal and/or fair? Especially for this industry?
    2. If it IS industry-standard, and I suck, what steps should I take to be a better copy-editor and formatter?
    3. Is my assessment of my performance review being unfair correct?

    Thank you to anyone who reads all this and answers. <3<3<3

    1. Argh!*

      Wow! You work for my boss!

      Update that resume, have it checked for typos, and start the job hunt.

      As Alison says, your boss sucks and isn’t going to change.

    2. LGC*

      I’m not in research, and even if I was it sounds like it’d be really context dependent. However, I HAVE written performance reviews, and two things jump out at me:

      1) Your company’s standards are almost certainly unreasonable. Not that you’re expected to have things client ready in 6 days, but that you apparently get penalized for ANY mistakes whatsoever. There ARE some mistakes that are “never” mistakes, but it sounds like they’re expecting all your work to be absolutely perfect from the start. That’s insane in 99% of industries, and I think being an analyst is one of those.

      2) Your boss needed to bring all of that to your attention before your performance review, and preferably well before. A good performance review shouldn’t surprise anyone (I believe Alison has posted about this, and I totally agree).

      So yes, it was unfair…not because the critiques themselves are necessarily unfair (I mean, I think some of them are but I don’t know your industry), but because she threw a ton of new things at you in a formal setting without giving you any chance of improving.

      1. LGC*

        One of the fields where it’s insane to demand perfection, I mean.

        To expand on that point: Sure, if you’re work at NASA, then yeah, you need to be perfect. But you’re also not expected to build a rocket and launch it in a week while managing three other rocket launches by you’re.

    3. only acting normal*

      I’m a technical analyst and write reports for a non-scientific customer base, and reviews others work.
      6 days may be reasonable or barking depending on length of report.
      But it is next to impossible to review your own work, especially in such a short timeline; you are just too close to it to see it objectively.
      We have at least 3 people in the review chain, one of whom focuses on proofing and format (the others on technical content), and while the report should be 99% ready when it goes to review, penalising you so strongly for small numbers of typos is ridiculous. Catching those little things that have become invisible to the writer is the whole point of review!
      Also, things like merging two sections into one are to an extent a matter of taste/preference. If you were the reviewer you might have gone the other way.
      Can you get a peer/pre-review (either informally or with supervisory agreement) before your final submission? You could frame it as helping you work on your weak areas.
      But in general… this sounds off.
      (I know of a US organisation where *all* the reports are produced by graphic artists, the researchers just give them the content. Now that sounds like luxury to me.)

      1. Reality Check Needed*

        Ugh this is the other thing – a couple of times I have solicited the help of coworkers and even Learning and Development. However, this is not built-in to the formation of the reports, and I can only do it if it is not significantly inconvenient to the other person. My manager even warned me not to overutilize L&D because the company “does not have the capacity” to “coach me” (in my words, peer edit) through my reports.

        So, prior to this job, I did work at a consulting company where we had a designated copy-editor for this very purpose. My friends who also work as analysts in other firms say the same thing. But being at this company, I’m constantly being made to feel like an idiot because whenever my project supervisor decides to make arbitrary edits, it means I have “structuring issues” or inadequate visualization skills. I don’t know if I’m truly an idiot or being gaslighted…

        1. only acting normal*

          I’m erring on the side of gaslighted. They want perfection, and punish if it’s “only” 99%, but they’re not willing to train? Yeah, no.

    4. Miss Displaced*

      This seems very excessive. It’ fine to expect such perfection, but if that’s the case there should be support in the form of editors/proofreaders to review these reports in order to meet such a stringent client-ready style guide. And of course that takes longer.

  197. Footiepjs*

    What’s a good but not way expensive coffee that I can buy for the department? Online or supermarket suggestions welcome.

    1. H.C.*

      Check with your favorite local or online roasters to see if they offer a discount for a subscription / recurring purchase.

      Otherwise, I’m pretty fond of Peet’s & Peace Coffee, both of which clocks in around $10-15/lb.

    2. BRR*

      If it’s not a consistent thing Trader Joe’s might be a good option.

      If you’re buying it regularly do you have a Costco membership? They have several types of good coffee and I imagine it’s priced well.

    3. nep*

      All the coffees from Trader Joe’s I’ve tried have been really good, and they’ve got a pretty good selection.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I think Peet’s coffee is the best, but I really like Starbucks and Gevalia. I try to look for sales at my supermarket. Often I find really good deals at Costco or on Amazon. If you check sales you should be able to buy K-cups for around 50 cents for a single K-cup, and you should be able to buy a pound for around $8.00.

  198. Paging PMFs*

    Any current or former Presidential Management Fellows? I’m thinking about applying this fall (got my MBA in December).

    1. nym*

      Not current, not former, but have worked with several in the past and I see no responses to your initial post – feel free to add questions or post in next week’s thread to see if you can get an answer! What info are you looking for to inform your decision?

  199. Barry*

    So I was laid off earlier this year. Got the whole “it’s not you, it’s me” line and was told it was purely a business decision and no reflection on my work or work product at all since I was a very highly valued member of the team. Yeah, ok. I had gotten a vibe and was already looking. Long story short I’ve been a finalist about 6 times now but no cigar (still waiting on one – I’ve either not gotten or been completely ghosted by the others.)

    I’ve since learned that my old employer wants me back and I have a start date for a new role. However, I keep getting called into meetings about my old job – and this has nothing to do with my new role. It’s becoming disruptive. Am I wrong for saying no at least until I’m on payroll again?

    Would it be wrong to leave new role at old employer fairly quickly if another job comes through? At this point I’m really not happy there any more and can’t trust that I have any kind of longevity but I also don’t want to screw them either.

    2. An unfortunate event*

      What does your new manager think about you being pulled into your old job? Or is your old team trying to get work from you before you even start in your new role? (Not cool and loop in your new manager).

      Regardless, the rules to avoid burning bridges is the same, give two weeks if you get something else

      1. Barry*

        I’m not sure my new manager even knows yet. I am not on the payroll and my start date for the new role isn’t for a few weeks yet. (Though my lay off date was a few months ago. Essentially I’m being told I have to do this while not getting paid for it but also having been laid off from the position because there wasn’t enough work and yet they clearly need me to do it. It’s frustrating. I also feel like I can’t say no for fear of getting the new position revoked.

        Unfortunately the type of work my new role is is something that lasts for a certain amount of time. I have no issues providing two weeks (unless of course any place that hires me doesn’t want to wait in which case ugh.) The problem is that the project will end in a few months. I certainly intend to ask any new job I may get if I could defer starting until then but imagine the answer to that will be no so I do believe that either way, two weeks or no, I will be screwing previous employer just by very nature of the industry. Sigh.

        1. Thlayli*

          It sounds like previous employer is screwing you every way they can so why would you care about screwing them?

          At the very least insist on being paid your new hourly rate for the meetings you are doing!

  200. Marketing Dinosaur*

    A different topic: Has anyone made the transition to a job in the tech or tech-adjacent space? I get very insecure and scared thinking about moving into an industry that changes daily and am wondering how you can build the knowledge and skills to transition. Others have told me it’s a bit of a facade and it’s like any other industry, but I don’t know. I feel like a Luddite half the time, and my jobs to date have felt old-fashioned/behind the curve in many respects. How do you actually get in the curve, if not ahead?

    2. only acting normal*

      I work in a research lab as an analyst, we only upgraded from Windows XP to Win 7 a few years ago… Not all tech companies are created equal. :-/

      Not every role requires the same level of technical knowledge (we have plenty of non techy support staff, and specialists in every conceivable discipline, some who don’t know squat about things outside their area). And while at the bleeding edge things “change daily” not everything in the entire company will! Plenty of technical types like (demand) a degree of familiar stability in order to achieve the level of focus needed to create/learn/use those innovations.
      In most respects it’s like working in any other industry – there are still wars over the office fridge, and people who talk too loud in open plan, and grumbles about the latest BS initiative from corporate, and the odd nightmare client no-one wants to deal with.

    3. Thlayli*

      “Tech” can mean anything. All jobs change daily to some extent unless you work on a production line in a factory.

      It kind of seems like you’re in marketing and want to become a software designer? If so you’ll need to do some training like a degree or certificate it’s not something you typically learn on the job.

    4. Sam Foster*

      I’ve worked in tech for 20 years. Some companies run stuff from the 50s, some companies are doing bleeding edge stuff I can’t even spell let alone understand.
      Point is, unless your function directly impacts the technology it’s likely you’ll feel like almost any other company.

  201. Anontoday*

    Sad angry end-of-the-week rant.

    I work at a custom teapot maker and gallery. Very small, about five employees, only two are full-time. I work part time customer service and admin. Today I suggested to my boss, with input from one of the teapot-makers, that we implement a better work-tracking system since stuff is always falling through the cracks and it is absolute constant chaos here. The teapot-maker and I talked about it with my boss and she said that it seemed like a good idea. Once the teapot-maker was gone for the day, she turned to me and said “Don’t get too excited about your idea because I’ve tried to do something like that in the past and no one here ever updates it except me.” I’ve been feeling crestfallen and sad ever since. It really, really bothers me how disdainful and passive-aggressive she is about my fellow employees. She complains to me about their work (often getting quite angry about it), if they leave early/late without telling her, and other aspects of her employees, but as far as I can tell she never actually gives them this feedback, just gets passive-aggressive about it and vents to me (did I mention we were friends before I started here?). They also vent to me about her, since she is a master at procrastinating, doing personal work during working hours, and often fails to do important things like order supplies or pay the bills. I don’t tell one party or the other about the venting, just nod my head and try and do my work.

    I want to go home, curl up in bed.

    2. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Yes, I agree with Thlayli. Job search. I had a manager similar to yours. It was a disaster in the end.

      1. The Other CC*

        Thanks for the kind words, y’all. I felt better after writing that and did go home and take a nap. Then my husband made me chicken nuggets and we got frozen yogurt, so all in all the day turned around. And then work was just fine – even pleasant! – on Saturday. I actually do have other work lined up starting in September and am scheduled to leave at the end of the week after Labor Day. Just need to manage everything until then, and maybe take a mental health day to go to the movies.

  202. char*

    So, the company I work for is owned by a married couple, and their son is on my team. I could go on and on about the weirdness this leads to, but this one today just floored me: apparently the son’s “punishment” for his attendance issues this week is that his mom is forbidding him from playing video games this weekend! Mind you, the son is a grown-ass man in his 30s. I can’t even.

  203. Overeducated*

    It’s been a rough couple weeks at work (at the level of me wondering if I can even make it through the two years I need to advance). Yesterday i woke up from a dream about a friend being happy after getting a good job i had to turn down for family reasons, and then saw on social media that the dream job that rejected me at the finalist stage just launched a new awesome thing I would MUCH rather be doing. So I’m kinda bummed about the direction life has taken me. How do you move forward and not dwell on what could have been?

    1. WalkedInYourShoes*

      There are other awesome companies with awesome products. From here, I have learned and helped that keep applying for a job has kept my mind from concentrating on not being chosen for a role. I feel for you!

  204. NaoNao*

    Am I out of line here?
    I’m a mid-career candidate with an online portfolio, a college degree, and a resume that follows Allison’s rule of measurable, quantifiable accomplishments (including industry and work awards!). (Just to set the stage here).

    About an hour ago I had the following experience.

    The posted job opening is for Corporate Trainer for a large global SAAS company that contracts to local governments. It’s not entry level or contract. It does not involve math, engineering, or anything like that.

    I got an invite for a brief logistics phone screen (like “I just need five minutes to prep you for our interview process” type deal) for today. Fine.

    The women then tells me the following during the call:
    –You need to complete a 50 question *basic cognitive ability* test in areas like logic, math, verbal reasoning, spatial reasoning, (basically a mini SAT test) in 15 minutes or less.
    –You need to complete a personality screening*
    –Both of these need to be done with your webcam on and a special keystroke and mouse capture program running.
    –This is before a phone screening with HR can be set up

    I politely told her to f*ck off.

    *I would have been okay with just a personality screening, as this is fairly standard.

    If my high school diploma and college degree, and my portfolio, plus my resume and cover letter (which have many quantifiable project stats and accomplishments listed) aren’t telling you the story, I have zero desire to work for you.

    Is this reasonable? I was in pretty high dudgeon and angry for about half an hour there.

    What dystopian nightmare are we now in that companies have the towering hubris to ask a mid-career candidate for this kind of insulting hoop-jumping!

    I made it crystal clear that these requests were the reason I was terminating the conversation, because I have a (perhaps misguided) hope that if enough candidates do this, it will become clear what a *terrible* idea this is and how insulting it is for highly qualified and vetted candidates to be asked this

    1. BRR*

      Nope. Nope nope nope. The company is so unreasonable requesting this. They probabaly tel you this over the phone to catch people off guard so they won’t say no. I’d be speechless if I was surprised like this.

      You have my admiration for telling them this is why you’re withdrawing.

    2. KayEss*

      Wow, the requirement to have your webcam on and INSTALL LITERAL SPYWARE ON YOUR COMPUTER (???!!!) is a special level of Kafkaesque horror. What the hell.

      I went through an interview process where they sprung a personality screening and cognitive ability test requirement on me after I agreed to and scheduled the second interview, and I kind of regret not kicking up a polite fuss… they took me by surprise and I wasn’t able to process a proper reaction to it in the moment, but I got pretty angry about it after the fact. It did definitely sour me on the company and contributed to me not pursuing the job past that second interview.

  205. WG*

    I applied for a job and have an interview for it scheduled for the near future. It just came to my attention that the department head is leaving the company. Any suggestions for the types of questions I should ask in the interview or flags to watch for?

    1. Thlayli*

      “Can you tell me about my possible career path within this company? I hear you may have a higher level opening soon”

      Lol

  206. Amy*

    I’d love your BEST tip for surviving a layoff. My husband lost his job of 20+ years today. Would appreciate financial survival tips for our family, and job hunting advice for him. Thanks.

    1. atexit8*

      As a person who has been laid off 3 times in the past 15 years:
      1. apply for unemployment
      2. cut expenses (cable and cell phone are the biggies)
      I have only basic cable and lowest speed internet with Comcast and it costs me $45/month

      Is your husband out the door or was he notified and he has 2 weeks?
      I would get the contact information of co-workers and managers that he wants to use for references.
      People suggest updating or setting up LinkedIn profile. I don’t have one, but it wouldn’t hurt.

      1. Amy*

        Thanks. Given only two weeks’ severance after 20 years, and had no idea until today. Today was their last day.

        1. atexit8*

          Amy,

          That absolutely stinks.

          Is your family’s medical insurance through your husband’s employer?
          If so, you will want to sign up for COBRA and decide what to do when open enrollment for the ACA rolls around in November.

          If your husband has a 401(k), you will need to decide what to do with it e.g. roll it over to a IRA or keep it there where it is.

          Obviously, start applying to jobs and post his resume online.
          Do know that he may get contacted immediately by headhunters if he does that.
          Be careful with providing them with personal information such as references and SSN.
          Many prey on job seekers.

          That’s about all I can think of.

    2. Thlayli*

      agree with Pp immediately cut all expenses that you can without significantly affecting your quality of life. Apply for everything you are entitled to and prioritise sorting out your health insurance.

      Next step – husband starts searching for a career job. I’ve heard you should plan for a month per 10k of salary.

      Third step: Look at your savings and see if you can afford to live till husband gets a new career job eg if he’s targeting 60k do you have enough to live 6 months on your new level of outgoings (after cutting things). If not, then he needs to look for an interim job, part time even. I’m talking something like retail or temp admin work, just something he can find quickly to bring in a little cash and keep you ticking over while he continues with his long term career job search.

      If you are still financially tight after that then start looking at cutting more expenses.

      Good luck

    3. tab*

      I have two tips. 1. Tell everyone you know that he’s looking, and ask them to spread the word. You never know where your next job will come from. 2. Use the free time to start working out. It will add structure to his days, help him get/stay in shape, and give him contact with other people.

  207. Trixie*

    Wrapped up first week in new role in a new department in higher education. It’s eye opening to see tasks performed regularly that are clearly someone else’s responsibility. Part of it because there is a sense it’s easier to continually make this correction or complete the task rather than send it back. That is a slippery slope because it sets precedent, and the other person or persons never learn proper procedure. Then before you know it, you are continually doing things that are not your responsibility. Take five minutes to have a conversation or mini training.
    Also, this sense of things will never, ever change so don’t even try. That benefits no one and may just be a matter of presenting your case or at least better documenting for future discussions.
    I am in a good position to present such cases not only as a fresh pair eyes but also from looking at workload from an organizational point of view. Plus the persistence of a patient bulldog. Stay tuned.

  208. TheQ*

    I’ve been in my position just over 3 months now. Most employees are ok to deal with, except for this one employee. She talks loud on the phone, always bickering about things. She starts her day with periods of ranting. How do I deal with a colleague who always exudes negativity? It really drains me of my energy having to listen to her ranting… I don’t want to offend her either. She thinks the world is against her.

    2. Miss Displaced*

      Is she talking to you about it? That you can shut down. Otherwise, tune it out or earplugs/headset. If it’s just loud phone use, you might ask her to dial down her voice volume a bit, but otherwise it’s the peril of offices.

  209. Kristin*

    I can’t stand dress codes. I feel so de-sexualized. Like, I have to hide who I am for 70 hours a week. It gets to my head. How do others deal with this? I feel so unlike myself in business casual clothing… just kind of gross and dumpy and unpleasant.

    2. Trot*

      I also hate that frumpy feeling, so I know what you mean! I found Pinterest surprisingly helpful for finding business-appropriate clothes that still felt like ‘me’. I started pinning a bunch of stuff to a clothes board and took note of the brands that kept coming up, and then sought those styles out. But it will admittedly depend on the workplace. Mine is quite casual so I have more to work with. That was a priority for me; I want a place where I can feel like myself. But I know that that kind of thing can vary hugely across fields.

      1. Kristin*

        I’ll check out Pinterest. Thanks. I’ll also see about that when I have a new job. It wasn’t something I considered before, but “business casual” can mean different things in different offices. I feel like anything remotely form-fitting would get looks. Even when people wear dresses, they’re like paper bags.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Hmm… Well, what IS your normal style?
      I wear some pretty funky-bohemian things that are still work appropriate ’cause that’s my style. Like, for me instead of jeans with a bohemian type top, I will wear black or navy dress slacks. I still wear sandals to work, but no flip-flops or thongs, ponte pants instead of leggings, wearing a cami under certain blouses, etc., etc. It’s all about taking the style you love, but dressing it up (or toning it down) a notch or two for the office. But I still always feel like me.
      Pinterest is a good option to explore, and I also like this blog called YouLookFab. Corporette also, though that is more conservative office fashion talk for those in law & finance. And if you can, watch What Not to Wear on TV. I learned a lot about dressing from Clinton & Stacey.

  210. Jenny P*

    I work in a customer-driven environment and one of my staff had what was essentially a temper tantrum when I asked her to change something at her station. We were surrounded by customers at the time so I let her know I was putting her on verbal warning. Now I’m in the process of documenting that warning and I am having trouble with language on how to describe her behavior. I feel like, “spoke in an angry tone and used angry body language,” isn’t really cutting the explosive nature of what happened. Any suggestions? (By the way we met afterwards and she has valid work frustrations, but they had to nothing to do with the situation at hand.)

    1. only acting normal*

      Add examples more specific than “tone” and “body language”. Was her voice raised in volume or pitch, were her teeth gritted? What about her body language was angry – balled fists, waving arms, big scowl, slamming something?

    2. Kathenus*

      Maybe imagine looking at the interaction on a video with no sound – what about her body language would you want to describe. And then from the perspective if you just heard an audio recording with no visual, what are the target behaviors you want to call out.

    3. chickaletta*

      State facts rather than interpretations (your employee could come back and say that she just naturally speaks in a loud voice and gesticulates a lot, but wasn’t angry). So say things like she raised her voice above its normal level, she interrupted you while you were speaking, turned her back to you, slammed her fist on the counter, or whatever it was she did.

  211. Perma-name*

    I handle the hiring for my partner’s business most of the time. It’s entry level, often students but sometimes graduates or just adults looking to pick up some extra work.

    I know this probably shouldn’t need to be said but… if you are submitting an application by e-mail, the title mostly doesn’t matter, but “i need job” is probably not the way to go.

    Oh, the stories I’d love to tell..

  212. Canonical23*

    I’ve made it to the final round of interviews for a position that I really want (assistant director at a library system). I’m fairly young, but I’ve been working/volunteering in libraries for 10 years and got my MLS a year or so ago. This upcoming interview is actually the staff (not the director) interviewing me. Does anyone have any advice for this type of interview? What questions should I ask the staff? If you got the chance to interview your future supervisor, what are things that would make you feel as though the candidate was a good pick?

    1. From a Recruiting Professional*

      *What’s your favorite responsibility in your role?
      *What makes you happy about happy about the library system?
      *What is working well for you?
      *What is not working well and what would you like to see improved?

  213. chickaletta*

    I probably already know the answer to this, and it seems like such a petty thing, but I’m wondering what others think. My supervisor started her job last fall and I’m starting to question her professionalism. She’s struggling to grasp our systems/software/processes still, and on top of that she acts rather unprofessionally. She gossips, shares TMI (feminine issues, her personal life, etc), has asked me to write an objective for her son’s resume so he could get a job at our company, and yesterday came in 2.5 hours late because she went to a concert the night before. She is about 50 years old and has had previous jobs managing offices, to give context about her experience.

    Honestly, I can just shrug off all this and it doesn’t affect my work too much. However, my company has annual evaluations where we’re asked to rate our supervisors and managers, and I’m not sure I will be able to give her the best score. I know these evaluations are really important to management because it affects all around pay for everyone and upper management really cares about the scores too. Should I say something to her now? If so, what and how do I talk to her about these things?

  214. DavidR*

    I’m in a weird situation here. I probably don’t need to do anything but I’d be grateful for any advice.

    Basically, I’m being stalked by a distant relative. They blame me for most of the bad things that have happened to them over the last couple of years: for example, they’re convinced I’ve stolen a lot of money from them somehow. From what I can tell, they’re fairly isolated, without many social connections, and this has probably made their mental state worse.

    Most of their harassment has been electronic and under their own name, since I’ve blocked their number and live a 2 hour drive away from them. I’ve blocked this person’s number and all their social media handles, and set up a filter for their email. Occasionally, I look at this filter, and they send me really creepy messages, either encouraging me to kill myself, or saying I need to “man up and learn the truth.”

    Most people don’t seem to care. He’s sent me emails encouraging me to kill myself from his work email. I called and forwarded them to his boss, and they didn’t care — he’s still employed there. Police have basically shrugged their shoulders too (he’s approaching retirement age, while I am 30 years old, physically fit, and 6’4″ tall). Again, I don’t fear any physical confrontation from him, but it’s unsettling nonetheless.

    This person incessantly tweets at people they dislike and gets into political arguments online. They will tweet “what the f- is wrong with you, you’re ruining the country you a-hole, you should be in jail!” over and over at politicians they hate, and then “f- you you’re destroying the country too!” over and over at anyone who replies to that.

    My concern is that they’re going to start some sort of social media harassment campaign to get me fired. My job doesn’t have any interaction with the public at all, but the idea of this guy deciding to tweet about me to get me fired is unsettling to me. Is it worth speaking to anyone about this?

    1. Traffic_Spiral*

      Well, you can forward his “kill yourself” emails to HR and tell them “just FYI, this guy is reasonably harmless but might start something.”

    2. Thlayli*

      I think the best option is to basically build a case to ensure there’s lots of documentation in case he does do something. Things you can do are:
      1 speak to a solicitor about what you need to do to get some sort of restraining order. Maybe they might say the first step is to send a “cease and desist” letter to him or you might be able to just apply for one in family court and show up with all your evidence.
      2 make an appointment to speak to a police officer and ask if there is anything that can be done to build a case now in case things get ugly later. Where I live if you are being harassed or stalked you can Set up a file in your local police station and make an appointment every week and just go down and say this is what I’ve received this week. They typically don’t do anything unless there is a real risk, but it’s abour building documentation in case they need to take action at some point.
      3 inform your own employer about the situation and that you are worried about the possibility of a social media campaign given this individuals behaviour on social media.
      4 family court? If one of my relatives did something like this I’d talk to my parent who would talk to their siblings etc and it would all be sorted out – but I realise not all families are like that.

      1. DavidR*

        Regarding the last item: This person’s related to me by marriage, so I’m wary about contacting his family because I don’t really know them. I don’t think I can do it in a diplomatic way. Every phrasing for a message to his relatives have felt like they have an “and if you don’t get involved, I’m bringing your brother/uncle/dad to court” tacked on to the end. I’d hope that if I was in their shoes, and one of my cousins emailed me about my dad harassing them with evidence, I’d have the integrity to sit down with him and tell him how wrong he was. But I have never been in that situation, so I don’t know. After all, the victims in the Penn State case got harassed.

        Everything else sounds great and I will be calling up lawyers on my lunch break Monday.

    3. Jerry Vandesic*

      You need to get out in front of this. File for a personal protective order. Talk to a lawyer. Have the lawyer send a letter to the employer whose email system is being used to send the threats. If necessary, file suit against that lawyer. Build a trail showing your defending yourself against this person, in case they try to get you fired.

        1. DavidR*

          He’s a state government employee, and I’m not sure what the procedure is there. Guess I’ll be hitting up a lot of lawyers.

          1. only acting normal*

            That makes it worse that he used his work email to harass you. (= misuse of taxpayer funded systems)z

    4. MissDisplaced*

      DavidR, this is horrible and it’s called cyber-stalking/cyber-bullying.
      I encourage you to document/print w/date everything up to this point, change your passwords and access to any/all email and social accounts, and talk to the police again. I don’t know if this behavior is enough to get a restraining order, but at the very least they have a formal complaint and documentation about what’s going on. I would also speak to your own employer’s HR department after the police, show them some of the same documentation, and let them know you suspect these people could mount a retaliation or harassment of some kind to try harm your reputation and you just want them to be aware in case of anything suspicious. And finally, I would seek some legal council to see if there is anything else you can do beyond just documenting their behavior towards you (perhaps a cease & desist letter).
      You can still protect yourself and your own interests without directly going after them.

  215. New to Career Fair*

    Hi All,

    I am planning on going to a career fair where there’s interviews for hiring involved. I wanted to ask what if I suddenly bumped into my current company’s coworkers or hiring managers there?

    When my current company notice me, do I just say a “hello” and just walk away and mind my own business seeing other employers?

    Or is there anything else I need to do to maintain good etiquette in this awkward moment?

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