open thread – August 17-18, 2018

by Alison Green on August 17, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. AdAgencyChick*

    For managers who have had to reprimand an employee about lateness (or if you’re an employee who’s been talked to about lateness):

    1) Did it work right away? Did it have a sustained effect? I feel like if my boss ever talked to me about coming into work on time, I’d be EARLY for at least the next several weeks, if not months.
    2) If you don’t have time cards, how do you keep track of the employee coming in on time so that you can impose necessary consequences?

    For reference: although my company doesn’t have a well-defined start time, nearly everyone shows up by X hour, and this employee regularly shows up 30 minutes to an hour after that. This means that they (gender deliberately obscured) miss weekly team meetings. Plus, because I’m invited to so many meetings, the morning is often the best time for me to meet with them and discuss their projects, which I can’t do if they’re late. So my definition of “on time” is not arbitrary.

    I’m a pretty punctual person myself, so it’s really hard for me to imagine that if my boss told me I needed to be better about coming in on time, that I wouldn’t immediately start coming in EARLY and try to maintain that for at least a few weeks, if not months. This has not been the case with the person I’m talking about.

    I’d say more about details of my conversations with them and what consequences I’ve imposed but I don’t want to out them or myself.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I think the lack of a defined start time is an issue here. It isn’t so much that they’re officially late – it’s rather that they’re missing key parts of their job i.e. weekly team meetings and discussion times. I would focus on making sure that they’re there for that when they have to be.

      Although, if someone talked to be about my tardiness, I’d be mortified and make an effort every day.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Since you say that your company doesn’t have a well-defined start time, I would focus on the “you need to be on time for meetings” part more so than “you’re late for work”. Are they recurring meetings or do they come up at the last minute?

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        There are both. There’s a recurring meeting that they are often late for, and also team members (including me) who are in the office earlier may want to have impromptu chats about the work.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I don’t think you can push back too hard on the “early people want to have chats” thing if there is no required start time, so I’d recommend focusing on the recurring team meetings.

          3. General Ginger*

            “If you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, why don’t you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?”

        2. Doreen Green*

          I think if you expect to be able to have “impromptu chats” about work at a certain time, it might be helpful for you to schedule time for these meetings. If this employee misses your scheduled check-ins, then you have something concrete to push back about, rather than something that sounds like it may seem arbitrary and random to your employee.

    3. JokeyJules*

      has it been explained to this person that while the company overall has lax start times, they MUST be on time for meetings?

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Is there a clear business need for this person to have a fixed start time when the company culture doesn’t have one? “The morning is often the best time for me to meet with them” is a preference and not a business need.

      If the company doesn’t have a well-defined start time, then you’re going to kill that employee’s morale by imposing one. Doubly so if you’re doing so because of a preference you have and not a business need.

      1. AnonToday*

        It’s not really a preference; if a manager is booked in meetings most of the time but is available first thing in the morning, then that’s just the reality for that team. This employee is also missing meetings, so she’s already gone way beyond a reasonable interpretation of “no set start time.”

        1. Kelsi*

          Whistlers at work…

          WHY IS THIS A THING. WHY DO YOU DO IT.

          I have a phantom whistler lately who’s driving me insane. They’re far enough away that I can’t tell who it is, and whenever I try to wander that way and suss it out they’ve stopped. They’re like the Flying Dutchman of annoying office mates and it’s killing me.

        2. Kelsi*

          Whoops, sorry, was trying to leave a top-level comment and failed spectacularly. It’s the whistler destroying my mind!

      2. EditorInChief*

        “The morning is the best time to meet with me” is absolutely a business need. I’m her boss, I’m busy and that is the most convenient time for me, her boss, to talk to her. That’s a business need to get the work in my department done. And I need her in morning meetings in order for her and her colleagues to collaborate on what they’re working on. Not all departments in a company have the luxury of coming into work whenever they feel like it. My team members who work with our counterparts in Asia come in later and leave later. My west coast people start work at 6-7 am to keep east coast hours. I had a person who had your attitude about showing up to work on time and I ended up firing her.

        1. Gail Davidson-Durst*

          Yeah, I have to think that it’s reasonable for a boss to say, “I know the business doesn’t have a universal required start time, but I need all my team members to be here during the core hours of 9-3 [or whatever]. Going forward, can you make sure to be in by 9:00 every day?”

        2. AdAgencyChick*

          I agree, this is why it chaps me so much. I’m not asking this person to show up significantly earlier than others in the office; I’m asking them to show up by the same time that nearly everyone else in the office has arrived.

          If I am booked for several hours straight with meetings starting at X time, and employee doesn’t show up until X:30, that means if I want to meet with them about their projects, I might not be able to do so until very late in the day, and then they’ve lost the whole day to act on my direction if there’s something I want them to do. Not great in the ad world, where tight deadlines and frequent priority shifts from the client are common.

          1. spock*

            You can totally tell them they need to show up earlier, but apart from days with meetings they missed, I wouldn’t frame their previous start time as being “late”. It’s not really fair to chastise them for not reading your mind about that being the time you want to talk to them. Make your expectations clear and go from there.

          2. EditorInChief*

            I feel your pain. I gave the woman I eventually fired several warnings before I had to formalize it in a written warning, followed by another written warning, numerous discussions with her why she needed to be on time, etc etc etc. When she did work it was very good, but all the drama didn’t make keeping her worthwhile.

            It was demoralizing the rest of the team who managed to get in on time. The last straw was the day she missed the kickoff meeting for a new project, came into my office almost 2 hours late, and said, “Sorry, I had a case of the Mondays and couldn’t make it in earlier”.

            1. General Ginger*

              Oh, wow, OK. Sounds like you did everything you could and were very clear on what you needed from her. “Case of the Mondays”? Did she honestly think this was a reasonable excuse?

              1. EditorInChief*

                I almost fell out of my chair when she said that. She was absolutely oblivious to how her actions affected anyone else and thought because she was very talented within her field that it was a ticket to do whatever she wanted to do.

                I think the mistake I made was keeping her around too long and she didn’t feel like there were real consequences. I took her off some high profile projects, which would have freaked me out if I was in her position but she didn’t seem to get it.

                I talked with her at length how sometimes hiring an average/above average employee who is easy to work with, collaborative, etc. is more important than hiring the rock star who decides the rules don’t apply. She was genuinely shocked when I fired her.

            2. Candace*

              Wow. I am someone who hates early mornings, and on days when I have no meetings, I come in around 9:30and stay till about 6 or later, plus I also spend about an hour most nights doing work. On days when I have an early meeting, I’m there. Now, two things – I am the boss in my area, as an academic dean, and I have flexibility. We also do stagger our hours to maximize office coverage – my assistant dean is usually in by 7:45 and out by 3:45 or 4, so it works having me come in later. Secondly, I have a medical issue – chronic, lifelong insomnia, for which I take medication, and sometimes it still doesn’t help. So sometimes, I take 2 hours of vacation time and go back to bed – but never if I have a morning commitment. If you have team meetings and have talked to the person, you have every right to fire them if they can’t straighten up and fly right.

          3. ChachkisGalore*

            Ok so I would really caution you to try and get out of the “this really chaps me so much” mindset. It’s really not fair to hold this employee to your personal standard of lateness when the explicit policy so far has been “no set start time”.

            That’s not say that you can’t ask them to their behavior going forward (I totally encourage you to do so and think it’s an entirely reasonable requirement), but again, it’s really unfair to be holding their past behavior against them (the general lateness, not the meetings stuff) on the basis of “they should have just known to do this thing, that is actually/explicitly NOT policy”.

            This isn’t a I shouldn’t need to make a policy for employees to know not to punch their coworkers type of situation. There is a policy in place and you are asking them to do something differently (which, again, is fine!).

            1. AdAgencyChick*

              I realized I wasn’t clear on the fact that I have had multiple conversations with this person about the issue already. I don’t want to reveal more details than that in terms of what consequences I have already talked about, but this isn’t the first time.

              1. ChachkisGalore*

                Ok – that is different! If you can’t tell – I’ve been penalized for not psychically diving my boss’s preferences before :-)

          4. Bagpuss*

            I think the key is to be explicit about what you need.
            e.g. “While we try to be flexible about start time, I need you to be in the office no later than X, and you need to be on time for all scheduled meetings. At the moment , the fact thst you are not here until Y means that you’re not available when I need you to be to set up the work for the day, and you are also often late for scheduled meetings, which causes major issues with deadlines as it’s often not possible to reschedule the meeting till much later in the day. Being in the office no later than X and ready and awaiting at the start time for any meeting are both requirements for this role, and if you are not able to meet them that is a major performance issue”

            In term of how you monitor it, would it be practical to call them,(if you have fixed phone lines on desks,) if you aren’t able to check personally ?

        3. General Ginger*

          “The morning is the best time to meet with me” =/= “The morning is the only time to meet with me”. Unless it was articulated to this person as a business need, i.e, “our core hours are X to Y, I know we have flex time/staggered start times, but my team needs to be here by X”, then it’s a preference.

        4. Trout 'Waver*

          I disagree here. I’m a morning person. My ideal meeting time is 7:00 am. Core hours start at 8:00. Could I, as the boss, insist on meetings at 7:00 am? Absolutely. But my employees wouldn’t like it. And resorting to “I’m the boss so I say what goes” is the boss move of last resort.

          Flip this one around and look at it from the employee’s view. Imagine if you took a job that was promoted as having no set start time and largely flexible hours. Then your boss starts scheduling mandatory meetings for before your preferred start time because “most people are here at that time” and “it’s the best time for me”. That’s quite literally the exact opposite of “no set start time”.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Missing weekly team meetings is baaaad. I also think that this person should arrive in a timely manner for you to be able to touch base on their projects, but without a set meeting time (can you set one?) that’s a grayer area. That missing team meetings is concrete.

      I have not had to manage a chronically tardy person, but when I’ve seen it done, it has rarely stuck for more than a week or two. I had a woman on my team who was repeatedly spoken to, but because her boss arrived later than she did, it just kind of… fell away. I once had a boss whose boss imposed a start time, and he would walk around and put Post-It notes on people’s doors if they weren’t there by 9:30 or whatever time he set. I don’t recommend that. But my boss’s refusal to regularly come in on time seriously messed up her credibility with this guy and she got forced out (for lots of reasons, but her lack of respect for his requests was part of it).

      But as far as keeping track, honestly I would put this person on an official PIP after the next missed team meeting. Make it about meetings rather than start times. Plan a morning meeting that works for you to check in on their projects, and if they miss that more than once, time for a PIP (or whatever consequences you’ve imposed).

      Also, ugh, I’m sorry. Flexible times are wonderful, but skipping a weekly team check-in regularly is Not Good.

      1. ToS*

        This. Also listen for why they are late – I’m presuming they are salary and not hourly. If there is a bona fide reason, give them a week to sort it out, document that, and hold them to it so they are not late for their meetings. Set CORE hours that start at or before team meetings are scheduled. For early morning consults, are you able to text, call or email them? That may reinforce that there is a strong interest in their availability.

        Do they stay later? You could also mention that being off-schedule to the point of being asynchronous is affecting how the team interacts with them. This is especially true if they can close a door to focus and get work done.

      2. Le Sigh*

        I feel like a PIP after the next missed meeting might be jumping the gun, especially if the employee is otherwise doing good work. I could be wrong but I don’t get the impression OP has had any conversation about missing these meetings. Granted, I think it’s kind of a given to not miss them, but it also feels like OP has gotten really frustrated with something that, to the employee, might feel like she was supposed to read boss’s mind since it wasn’t a stated policy. I’d start with a conversation laying out what she needs and when she needs to arrive by, then take it from there.

    6. WellRed*

      I second the lack of defined hours as a problem but more so than the lateness. I am flabbergasted that someone would regularly miss team mtgs. Even if they suck it’s never s good idea to not put your face in front of co-workers and bosses.

    7. EddieSherbert*

      Have you told them what “on time” means to you/your department, why it’s important, and explicitly told them this is now a requirement of their job (versus implying it)? I also have flexible work hours and it would be… very weird… for me if my manager started hounding me about when I come in and giving me a “start time.” I probably wouldn’t get it if they weren’t VERY explicit because that’s so out of the norm for my office.

      I mean, missing a weekly meeting regularly is obviously a problem! That point should be self-explanatory.

      But I’d be confused about the rest of the weekdays (why do I have to be here by 8? Because Manager might want to talk to me? What???).

    8. The Other Dawn*

      It seems to me like you need to tell this person, “I need you here by X time and this is why.” And then hold them to it and deliver consequences if necessary.

      I don’t think it matters that the rest of the office doesn’t have an official start time–if your teams needs an official start time to run efficiently, that’s what you should do. IN my company, some departments don’t need to be here by 8 am; however, others, like the call center, need to be here at a certain time in order to serve customers.

    9. OtterB*

      Agree it’s probably partly a matter of not having a well-defined start time.

      Also, did you ask the employee why they are often late? I have sometimes over the years had to wait until my special needs daughter was picked up by the school bus or by her transportation to work, and the timing on that varied from year to year. I could make arrangements to be in earlier if particularly needed (e.g. staffing the registration table for a workshop beginning at an early hour) but didn’t arrange it daily. In my extremely flexible office it didn’t matter, but if it had, I would have had a hard time complying.

      Depending on their reasons, could you institute a “in by X hour on days Y and Z” so that they are there for the team meeting and another specific day for a one-on-one meeting with you, and let them continue the more flexible schedule on other days?

    10. Red Staplers are awesome*

      I had an employee that I needed to be on time for her shift as she was taking over phone duties from the previous person and there was no overlap. I’m like you, I could not understand why she didn’t immediately change her morning routine to be on time. After several discussions, I finally got her to get through the door on time, but then she’d spend the first half hour getting coffee, cleaning the kitchen, using the restroom, etc. so then we had to have discussions about that. I offered repeatedly to switch her to a schedule where we had overlap and being exactly on time was not such an issue, she declined. I did eventually fire her, but it was multiple discussions where she’d say “oh, ok” like it had never been brought up before. On the other hand, the firing did not surprise her. At all.

    11. Not Maeby But Surely*

      Mostly reformed (at work, anyway) chronically late person here. The first time my boss brought it up to me that my tardiness was a problem (and we’re talking only up to 20 minutes, but average of less than 10 minutes, late), I immediately started getting up earlier, and yes, was no less than 5 minutes early for the next several weeks. I was also very apologetic any time I was late after that. For the employee to not take corrective action right away, to me, indicates a flippant attitude about the whole thing. If you’ve already been very clear about your expectations, including saying, “I need you to be here by X time, like the rest of the team,” then you’ve done your part, and escalating consequences would seem to be appropriate. Barring some sort of extenuating circumstances, I guess, but you’d probably have mentioned them if they existed.

      1. NinjaForToday*

        See, where I’m at 10 minutes is Late, and 20 is LATE. Completely not acceptable on a regular basis.

        1. Not Maeby But Surely*

          I totally agree with you! But the OP indicates their problem employee’s “late” is 30-60 minutes. I made the designation to point out that people get in trouble even for being less late than that.

      2. The Other Dawn*

        I agree. I used to be chronically late, and now I’m consistently early. It took my many years to change my mindset, but it finally happened. Part of the problem was that I always had bosses who didn’t care if I was late or not, even though I really should have been there by a certain time, and came in after me anyway. So it just didn’t matter to me. I don’t even know what flipped the switch for me, but it took…many years.

        I managed a chronically late person once (front reception desk so she needed to be on time) and it was horrible. Even though I was chronically a half hour late at that time (my boss didn’t know/care), I was still in before her even though she was supposed to be in before me. I spoke to her many (MANY) times, changed her start time several times, gave her plenty of chances to tell me if there was some extenuating circumstance, and it never improved. Maybe for a couple days, but that was it. (Problem was my boss wouldn’t let me fire her, so there weren’t any consequences and she knew it.) It eventually came out that she was working several jobs and was up most of the night, getting maybe two hours of sleep. But she never mentioned it. Just said “OK I’ll do better” and then didn’t. It completely baffled me as to why she wouldn’t just say she’s got another job so she wouldn’t have to get spoken to so often. It’s not as though she would be revealing something intensely private, IMO. She had a flippant attitude about it and since there weren’t any consequences, it didn’t matter if she came in on time or not.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          I get why she wouldn’t say that working another job is the reason she’s being late. If I were her I would expect the answer to that would be “quit your other job,” not “we can work around that.”

          (Which is not to say that she was right to continue to be late despite your talking to her so many times)

          1. The Other Dawn*

            I get what you’re saying and maybe some people would say “quit the job”, but I definitely wouldn’t have told her to do that. Neither would my boss. We were very much a company that would work with people and she’d seen that; we worked with her on other things not related to being late, but appointments in the middle of the day and stuff like that.

            1. irene adler*

              Some companies have a policy that they will fire the employee if they find out moonlighting is the reason employee cannot consistently make it to work on time. That’s the policy where I work.

        2. WellRed*

          If she had told you the reason, that still wouldn’t have changed the requirement she show up on time.

        3. Decima Dewey*

          Our branch’s chronically late staffer is really contrite when he’s admonished about it, always promises to do better, but “better” never materializes. Every morning begins with a call from him saying he’s on his way. Sometimes he gives an estimated arrival time. Odds that he’ll arrive by the time he’s designated aren’t good.

    12. Bea*

      This is fixable with core hours established. Otherwise it’s hard to say they’re late when they’re not given any structure for start time!

      Everyone I’ve spoken with eventually slips back into the habit at some point. Until it comes to their job being at risk.

      1. Washi*

        This is exactly what I wanted to say. Just because the company doesn’t have a fixed start time doesn’t mean you can’t set core hours for your team if not knowing when people will be in means that it’s hard to get work done. Saying that they need to be in the office between 10-3 is perfectly reasonable IMO.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          But going from no set start time to core hours is removing a perk, and a pretty rare and valuable one at that. Don’t get me wrong, core hours is still better than fixed starting time. But it still is the loss of a perk.

          1. OhNo*

            At least any place I’ve ever worked, having no set start time just meant there wasn’t a hard-and-fast rule that you had to have your butt in your chair at a particular time or you’d be fired. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you can come in whenever you want, and no one I’ve ever worked with has interpreted it that way. Based on a couple different places I’ve worked, “no set start time” could be interpreted as:

            – You should be working by 9am, but you can get in whenever (or work remotely)
            – You should be in the office between 10 and 2, but you can start as early or late as you want
            – You can set your own start time, but it should be consistent
            – Your manager will set your start time based on business needs

            So I don’t think the OP would be removing a perk as I would normally think of it. And even if they are, perks are for performers! If the employee is really missing team meetings and causing other problems by coming in later than everyone else, it’s perfectly fair for the boss to place limitations on this particular perk.

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              That’s a Catch-22, though. She’s missing team meetings because they’re scheduled before her preferred start time. If she were to perform and thus earn the perk, she’d immediately not be performing if she used the perk.

    13. NinjaForToday*

      I’ve termed people for excessive tardiness. We’re a butts in seat kinda place, though. Mostly call center. I talk to them to find out the underlying issue, tweak schedules if needed, reiterate performance standards and how they are missing targets (if they are) because they are not here a full day, reiterate that they have cost themselves money by not working a full day (this only works if they are hourly), let them know how it’s using up their PTO (we fill in empty spots with PTO to make 40 hours), etc. I’ve also recommended they go to HR if it’s a medical thing and see about FMLA. Usually they will get it together and be on time. If they don’t, we coach again. If they still don’t, they get a box with their belongings in it, a letter about COBRA, and instructions on how to get their W2 in Jan.

    14. Ann Furthermore*

      I would tell them, “I need you here by X time, and this is why.” Also make it clear that this is a verbal warning, and the next step will be a formal written warning, and then a PIP (or whatever the progression of events at your company is). Also, make it clear that things happen every now and then (horrible traffic, bad weather, etc) that make people late, but those are one-off type things that happen to everyone, and that’s not what you’re talking about.

      My husband runs a machine shop, and they all start at 6:30. That means he expects everyone to be there, punched in, ready to work, at 6:30. Not 6:31 or 6:33, 6:30. It doesn’t matter how good someone is, if they scoot in every day a minute or 2 late, it’s going to tick him off. And he’s the boss, so he gets to make the rules. He is the most punctual person in the universe. He is never, ever, ever late. Ever. So he’s not expecting anyone to do anything that he doesn’t do himself.

    15. Matilda Jefferies*

      I agree with the others that you need to be specific about the need to be on time for team meetings and 1:1’s with you.

      But also, do you have the option to be more flexible when there are no meetings? Or to move the 1:1’s, even by half an hour? Even if it’s not the *best* time for you, if it’s a *possible* time for you, it would help if you can offer any kind of flexibility at your end as well.

      Story time: I have indeed been “spoken to” about lateness by a manager at a previous job, and it had zero effect on my ability to get to work on time. My children’s day care at the time opened at 8:00, and it took me from 65-75 minutes to get to work from the day care, depending on the state of public transit on any given day. It just wasn’t possible for me to get to work for 9:00. I couldn’t move houses, or change day cares, or make the subway run on time, no matter how angry my manager would get. And her insistence that I had to be Butt In Seat at 9:00 every day regardless of my personal circumstances was really damaging to our relationship.

      So if you haven’t done this already, please ask your employee about their morning routine, if there’s anything preventing them from getting to work by a certain time on certain days. You don’t need details, but it would be great to get a general idea of what’s going on with them outside the office. Maybe you can work something out that they start at X:00 on meeting days, and X:30 on non-meeting days? If you can set a tone of “let’s work together on this,” rather than “you have to do what I say because I’m the boss,” you’ll probably get better results.

      (Aside, this was a professional position with no specific customer-facing requirement – this was entirely my manager’s preference. I know it’s not quite the same in your office, but I’m speaking from the perspective of someone who has been in your employee’s situation. I hope it’s helpful.)

      1. Being on Time is an Enviable Skill*

        Also speaking from a late persons perspective: (i don’t expect anyone to be happy or accepting of this, but understanding the mindset can help plan a course of action with more accurate expectations)

        I had “flexible time” but was told i was pushing it. Ok… so i will definitely be careful not the be any later! Got it! No. It was i had already gone past the line, there was irritation at my actions and then at my lack of understanding/course correction.

        It also caused me to be irritated because i was soing what i was told was alright, but it wasnt outside of unusual circumstances. From my point i was doing what i was told, but that still left me sitting around some days with no boss or a boss that wasn’t directly interacting with me. Since im not an early bird this was discouraging and felt petty.

        Be clear on what you NEED v what you want at a minimum. Some of us are, for lack of a better word, kind of dense and need very clear and direct communication, probably even confirmed in writing. This does not excuse us from following through, but removes misunderstandings between multiple busy adults with different communication styles.

        1. Annie Moose*

          ^^ couldn’t agree more.

          Of course your employee shouldn’t be missing team meetings, and it should be obvious that’s not okay, but if you haven’t specifically told her that, then she might be under the impression that you don’t mind as much as you do. And if you want her to be in before the meeting to make sure she has time to be ready for it, tell her that too.

          “I need you to be on time for team meetings. It’s not okay to miss them or be late for them. In fact, I’d like you to come in at least ten minutes earlier than the team meeting time so you’ll be prepared for them.”

          As Alison often says, if you haven’t directly said this to her, it’s entirely possible she hasn’t picked up on your hints yet!

    16. The Other CC*

      I’ve been a part of department-wide “conversations” about lateness (which really were directed at one or two people who would roll in 10-15 minutes after the start time most days of the week) where management reminded everyone of the late policy* and said they were really going to start cracking down on late arrivals, really! But the late employee(s) didn’t start coming in any earlier, or maybe they made a good-faith effort the first week and then reverted to their regular schedule. Not sure if it was because they hadn’t been reprimanded one-on-one and thought they were really fine, or they just didn’t care very much, since there weren’t meetings or anything that they were missing, and they’d just work 10-15 minutes less on their lunch breaks.

      Personally, I am often later to work than I would like, since I sleep poorly and struggle to get out of bed every morning. I am actively taking medication and adjusting my sleep habits to address it, but I still need to set 10 alarms every morning if I’m going to get up in time for work. Could something like that be going on with your employee? Not that it’s your problem to solve their personal issues, but perhaps there is background context. It’s not super-important that I be at work *right* at the start time (and in fact I often beat my supervisors in), but if someone did have an issue with my tardiness I would respond better to a manager who approached me with the attitude of “Is there something going on that is causing you to be tardy?” vs. “You need to stop being late effectively immediately!”. However – I would never be half an hour to an hour late as a matter of routine, and I would never miss a scheduled meeting with a supervisor! That is just crazy.

      *The late policy when I started was that if you came in after the one-minute grace period, you had to wait 1/2 an hour to clock in. A few managers before that, if you were late by more than one minute, you had to pay a $50 fine. Now it’s kind of fuzzy how long the grace period is and if you should or shouldn’t clock in if you arrive at say, 9:03, so I think management has chilled out a bit on this one.

    17. publicista*

      I am likely projecting, but I would also make sure that the employee (if you’re going to have the conversation) does not have a medical issue that is causing them to be late. I have a chronic stomach issue that, no matter what time I wake up, hits me around the same time every day. And it happens to be the time I need to leave for work in order to be on time. I forced myself to have the awkward conversation with my new boss (who is not into sharing personal details) about why I would sometimes be late. I think he understands it now, though I still email on the days where it’s going to be a significant problem and cause me to be more than 15 minutes late.

      1. Kerr*

        Yes, please make sure it’s not a medical issue! Or another serious problem. It sounds like you’ve had conversations already, but if they were of the “make sure you’re on time, can you do that” nature rather than “do you have a problem I should know about”, you might want to ask. Many, many people will not volunteer that they have a medical problem, especially if it’s mental health related, unless they have to.

        TBH I sound like your employee. I’ve hit a bad period of chronic lateness, and have been late to meetings (this is BAD). It’s definitely not 100% voluntary and has nothing to do with not caring, nor can I just show up early after being “spoken to” (believe me, I’ve tried). It’s frustrating as heck.

        That said, if you’ve been clear and there’s no particular reason for being late to meetings? Yeah, that’s a problem.

    18. The Person from the Resume*

      I knew a chronically late person or at least she was chronically late for work. She was dedicated once she was there and often wanted to stay late which was problem because of security we needed two people to lock up and second person had to stay late with her to perform the lock ups.

      It was completely habitual in that apparently this had been happening for like as long as she had been working there 10-20 years. I almost felt like it was too late at this point to get her to change. I also think her root cause was that she was truly a night owl and just didn’t wake up early.

      That said, I think you make a great point. Some people would be mortified by being told by their boss they were late and do things to fix it. They don’t sound like one of those people. Missing meetings and not caring? Or missing meeting and still not being able to solve the lateness problem?

      That said I think you may be at the point of a PIP leading to firing if they cannot be on time and make it to meetings. I suspect this person will need to be convinced of serious consequences before a change is made. You may not be even be able to force the change on them.

      I’m in no way saying they are incapable of change, just that they don’t care enough to make what could be for them a very difficult change.

    19. Dragoning*

      Honestly, I’m never late on purpose, so the first time or two a boss pulled me aside to say “hey, you were really late this morning, what’s up , you can’t do that,” it didn’t change anything, because I’m late only when my alarm doesn’t go off, or the road flooded, or something else.

    20. Nellie the Elephant*

      I think it’s fine to set informal expected start times with your employee, even if there aren’t specific meetings, because the rest of the team are generally in at that time, you could say they need to be in when the rest of the team is in, and one person being later than everyone else can have a negative impact on the team. You could also say ‘Often I need to speak to you about specific projects, and when you’re not in before x time, it means that these conversations can’t happen in a timely manner, and it affects work for both of us’. They also may not have realised how unprofessional it looks, so you could point that out.

      You can also set informal timesheets. I had an employee who did have a set time of 9.30, but would frequently turn up between 10.30 and 11. I asked them to start keeping a spreadsheet of start times, and send them to me at the end of each week. It just allowed us both to see patterns and fluctuations, so we noticed when particular days were difficult. Once they saw these patterns, and they were having to write down their own start times, they became much better at monitoring their own timeliness. This also requires the employee to be honest about their start times. If you notice they put a start time of 9am, but you know they actually walked into the office at 10, you know you have a bigger issue than just tardiness.

    21. Everdene*

      Without a defined start time I would be very unreceptive to someone telling me I’m late. If you need the whole team in my a certain time each day then you need to set that standard and hold them to it. Getting annoyed at people not coming in as early as you, in my experience, often corrolates strongly with the people who slink out at 4pm on the dot every day and ignore the fact work continues to happen after they leave.

      Missing team meetings is another matter and this person should be held accountable to that. It is worth checking whether that meeting time is achievable foe them. In a previous job I had to attend a monthly meeting in another city. I was often late because I had to catch the first train of the day to get there on time and any delays made me late.

    22. Amylou*

      I can be late quite often and I’m a bit of a night owl, but I’ve never had the kind of job where I had to have my butt in my seat from 9-5. I do try to keep a semi-regular schedule though. No time cards. If I have a meeting though I am always on time. That’s just rude to be late for a team meeting.

      At a previous job I was often “late”, but I frequently worked late (until 6:30/7 instead of 5:30, and occasionally have events to attend in the evening), so it wasn’t really an issue. If someone had then told me I am often late and should be “on time” when there were never officially working hours set, that would have felt a bit unfair and rubbed me the wrong way (based on how much work I did). It would be good if you could frame it as a business need: like, on Mondays you need to be here by 9 for the team meeting, on Fridays let’s schedule a 1–2-1 at X time (what was your informal chats). I find it much easier to be on time, if there’s actually a need to be on time for something (a meeting or a shift or strict working hours). And if they are not on time, then you at least have something concrete to follow up on.

      (The only time I missed the start of one morning meeting, was when I was the only team member who worked a company event until 11pm, with another all-evening event the next day – I simply didn’t manage to drag myself out of bed on time for a 10am meeting with the prospect of two consecutive 14-hour days of work… did get a talking to about that per text when I texted I was going to be late, which felt unfair and pissed me off)

    23. ChachkisGalore*

      1.) I’m a chronically late person (to regular things like work). 2.) I’ve been in roles where butts in seats and mattered and ones where it hasn’t. In the ones where it hasn’t… Nothing makes me lose respect for my boss quicker than a boss who lets their personal preference guide disciplinary matters rather than actual business need.

      I think your situation has two distinct aspects. Missing morning meetings isn’t being late. It’s missing meetings. Employee needs to be there for meetings – whatever time they start. Full stop

      Part 2. Not being able chat with this employee in the morning. I think you can address this but I also think you need to reframe how you’re approaching it. Your company has a no-set-start-time policy – but the thing is YOU do have a general start time that you need your employees there by. That’s usually ok even in flex environments. Different depts have different requirements. Due to your schedule this is what is needed for your dept to run efficiently. So when you talk to employee I think to approach it more as this is a new policy, here’s the reasons, I’ll need you to be on board with it (and either explicitly say or at least be clear in your mind that you’d be having this same talk with any employee who was coming in past x time regularly), rather than going at it with the idea that they’ve been “late” (aside from the meeting stuff), because you can’t really be formally late if there’s been no set start time.

      1. Basia, also a Fed*

        As a person who is chronically late (but not when I have a meeting), and has also had to manage people who were chronically late, I think this is perfect.

    24. M. Albertine*

      I would start with “Hey, you’ve been missing/been late for team meetings. What’s up with that?” Give them a chance to explain if there’s a reason, (re)establish your expectations, make a plan for going forward.

      As a separate but segueing topic, bring up that it would be good to have daily check-ins on their workload for feedback/input, what time would be good to do that, let’s put a recurring appointment on your calendars. This person might need a formalized check-in instead of the informal one that works with your other employees. Then if morning is indeed the only time you both can get together, you’re establishing the expectation that the employee is present for these check-ins and you can handle it the same way you’re handling the team meetings: as an expectation of the job and not a function of butt-in-seat.

    25. Not So NewReader*

      Details of your conversations? More than one conversation? Consequences, not just 1 consequence?

      This sounds like it has been going on for a while.

      Generally, this scenario happens if people are concerned they have not made their point perfectly clear OR if they fail to follow up with consequences. This is generally speaking, so it may/may not apply to you.

      I think you are going to have to decide how much longer you want to do this with the employee. Can you deal with another year of this? No? Then use that as your motivator to stay on track.

      This paragraph here could be telling: “I’m a pretty punctual person myself, so it’s really hard for me to imagine that if my boss told me I needed to be better about coming in on time, that I wouldn’t immediately start coming in EARLY and try to maintain that for at least a few weeks, if not months. ”

      Try to maintain it for a few weeks if not months? Really? If any boss ever told me to be on time, I would assume that meant for the rest of my life with a the company, not just a few weeks or months. Gently suggesting, that you look at your expectation here. If you want her to change her habit for the rest of her time with your department she needs you to say that out loud. Make sure you are not speaking in a manner that makes it sound like “it would be nice if you could arrive a little bit earlier”. This is too vague and it is not instructive, it’s too soft a statement.

      As far as “catching her”, well you do “catch her”. She is not at the morning meeting and that is everything you need to know right there.
      Tell her that your expectation of everyone is to arrive at x time. Let her know that she absolutely cannot be missing meetings with you. Give this to her in writing if you think that would help. Have her sign a copy, if you think that would make an impression.

      I could be misreading but you sound unsure of your ground here. I am thinking that you might benefit from a chat with your boss. Tell her what is going on, what you have done so far and go over your thoughts on next steps. Bonus points for explaining how it is impacting their productivity and quality of work. It’s really important to know our bosses back us when we have to make big decisions such as putting someone on PIP or firing them.

      I kind of have to chuckle to myself. This employee should never get a retail job because if they’re one minute late they just lost their job. Do they want the job or no? I have had 14 plus hour work days, simply because I wanted the job and so I had to put in the time required. This job may not be a good fit for this employee. Some jobs require a person to be self-policing, self-regulating. They have to check their own work, keep track of their own time, and they have to hold themselves accountable every inch of the way. If she is not able to do that then she might be with the wrong employer. If it were me and I had several conversations about this already I probably would tell her this directly, “If you cannot get a handle on your arrival times, then this might not be the workplace for you.”

    26. annejumps*

      I guess they need it explained that for all intents and purposes there IS a defined start time annnnd it’s when this meeting starts.

    27. Jaydee*

      The easiest to address is that this employee is late for or missing meetings that are either standing meetings or scheduled/notified in advance. That’s really clear what the expectation is and really measurable as to whether that expectation is met. “Weekly team meetings are scheduled for 9:00 on Tuesdays. You don’t get here until 9:30, and you miss the meetings. [Or, you are still getting coffee/putting your jacket in your cubicle and don’t walk in until 9:10 and disrupt the meeting.] That’s not acceptable. You need to be sitting in the conference room, ready to go, at 8:59 every Tuesday morning. Is that something you can do?”

      The harder part is that you and team members might want to have impromptu chats about work early in the morning. If that’s a legitimate business need for everyone to have access to each other for impromptu in-person conversation at certain times of day, then you need to establish an expected start time or core hours or something like that. Otherwise, if you want to maintain the flexible start-time thing, there might need to be other ways of communicating that don’t require real-time, face-to-face conversation first thing in the morning. Send emails, leave voicemails, schedule time later in the day to talk.

    28. Lucille2*

      I have managed teams like this where start times are not a set time, but up to the individual (salaried employees) to manage their schedule effectively. I have also run into similar issues, and below are some recommendations:

      1: Establish clear expectations of the job. Employee is expected to be in the office consistently during normal business hours. If they have a need to come in later than most (child care, long commute, or working with global teams that require late meetings), then they should clear that with you first. And they should expected to be in office for a full day (8 hours). I usually told my team that the start time was flexible, but I expected them to be in office to support their clients (internal or external) and be on time for meetings during business hours. If an employee wanted to come in at 7am and leave early, then they were expected to be flexible for meetings that needed to happen at 4pm.
      2: Start time should be consistent on a daily basis. I need to know when I need to start worrying. If the employee needs to start late on some day, there should be an email to their manager. This should be the exception not the rule. If late start requests are happening once a week or more, another discussion needs to happen about expectations.
      3: Have a conversation with HR about expectations of employees time in office (assuming they are salaried). I had an issue with an employee, and my HR basically told me there wasn’t much I could do to enforce a start time or even require this person to be in office for 8 hours. Their guidelines to me were similar to above. It’s good to know your company’s policies before enforcing some expectations. In my case, HR did agree that if there are meetings they need to be present for, as manager I can set a pretty clear expectation and hold my team accountable.
      4: Do not recap any meeting discussions that have been missed. Also for impromptu discussions. If the employee insists on coming in later than everyone else and misses valuable discussions, they are accountable for that. Let them know they miss these opportunities which could impact their work.

    29. OnTimeManager*

      As a manager who has had to deal with a couple of employees with chronic tardiness, I can say that those who would come in early after being talked to by their boss are normally the employees who wouldn’t be chronically tardy in the first place. It’s especially tricky when the behavior pre-dates you because the flexibility that comes with this behavior is often seen as a perk and asking them to come in earlier feels like you are taking something away.

      I will say, that correcting this behavior seldom corrects itself right away and it’s important to focus on how this behavior negatively affects the tardy person via reputational damage, loss of assignments/responsibilities, etc. That’s what’s been effective for me. Of course, you have to then follow through on those repercussions, which many managers are loath to do (a recurring theme on this site for sure! :) ) Once there is an actual incentive to come in on time (and sadly manager expectation isn’t enough), the behavior will often get better.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        There’s a persistent rumor in our library system that there’s a 15 minute grace period and that as long as you come in within that time period it’s fine. Two Grandbosses, Payroll, and HR have stated in meetings that there is no such grace period. Also, except for Fridays and Saturdays, official start time is 15 minutes before we open to the public. That means getting the circulation computers up as well as the cash register for fines. So coming in 10 minutes after the official start time is not cool.

    30. designbot*

      When I had this problem with an employee, I didn’t even talk to him about lateness specifically. I was annoyed by late starts and on time to early ends, too much time making oatmeal and small talk in the kitchen, by him not being at his desk when I needed him… what I was really annoyed about was him not taking enough ownership of his work, and so that’s what I talked to him about. I specifically told him, I don’t want to have to monitor your comings and goings, I want to be able to just trust you to do the job. I’d say I saw small improvements within a week, and substantial improvements about a month in.

    31. Brightlights*

      I had an employee who was regularly late in ways that impacted her deadlines. I put her on a PIP and nearly fired her- she got to her last straw and I told her that if it happened again she would be terminated. She was transferred to another manager upon my promotion and continued to do the same thing. She was not fired but continued with us until the end of her contract. I couldn’t say why; I was no longer with the department.

      Just show the F up, people. Reasonably on time. It’s not that hard.

    32. Student*

      So, any crime (or deliberate rule-breaking, in this case) has three elements. Means, motive, opportunity. To manage this problem, you need to deal with at least one of those – preferably more.

      Means – it’s easy for them to skip this meeting because it is the first one of the day, and the company doesn’t have a well-defined start time. If you want to tackle the problem here, move the meeting time to a time they can’t so easily skip. You can also require a specific start time, either for this employee or for your team.

      Motive – why is the employee skipping the meeting? Are they afraid of what they’ll hear, afraid of talking to you? Do they view it as a waste of their time? Are they trying to avoid getting more work? Is there something specifically unpleasant about the meeting that they are avoiding (such as annoying co-worker dominating the meeting, meeting runs late, meeting goes off agenda easily)? This isn’t necessarily where I would start, but I’d at least reflect on whether the meeting suffers from any common meeting problems.

      Opportunity – You haven’t done anything but reprimand them. So far, a reprimand isn’t really sticking. It’s not, apparently, hurting their job performance or work quality substantively to skip these meetings (at least, not hurting them enough to miss meeting content that they prioritize the meetings themselves). They aren’t getting enough beneficial stuff out of the meeting to want to attend, either. So, up the penalties/consequences for not being at the meeting. Maybe that means just not making time for them outside of the proscribed meeting, so they have to show up if they want your attention or want their weekly assignment info. Maybe that means something harsher than a reprimand in your org. Maybe that means they miss out on the best assignments because they don’t show up. They miss deadlines and you don’t bail them out. There are many options like this.

    33. Courageous cat*

      I’ve been talked to about lateness and I was on time for a very long time afterward and very paranoid about it.

      I’ve also talked to an employee about lateness who just… didn’t really change anything at all. Unfortunately he was indispensable in his position at that exact time, and he probably knew that.

    34. Drama Llama*

      As someone who dealt with this issue regularly, this is best addressed during recruitment by hiring someone who is inherently punctual.

      I don’t say anything if someone is late occasionally due to unforeseen circumstances – we’ve all been there, done that. But if you’re dealing with someone who simply doesn’t value punctuality, it will be an ongoing and persistent problem. Sure, once you talk to them most people will make an effort to come earlier. In my experience, though, they will eventually slack off and start coming in late again. Habits are hard to break.

      If anybody is chronically late then management will find out, even if there aren’t time cards. If our store opens late we will get complaints; I do random CCTV checks; and I drop into the stores unannounced. I also communicate with our staff regularly about the importance of being on time to their shifts so the expectation is clear from the start.

    35. LV426*

      If your company doesn’t have set hours that people are required to be in the office I can see why your employee is setting their own schedule. Flexible schedules are a bonus to salaried workers. However, as a salaried employee who has a manager that sets early morning meetings, I make it a point to show for the meetings at the time set. But if my manager asked me to show up early just because he or she might want to meet with me to discuss my work for the day I’d seriously reconsider staying in my position and would probably go job hunting.

      For me I would express specifically to your employee that they MUST attend scheduled morning meetings and that being late and missing these meetings is not negotiable unless the employee has a valid reason such as a doctor appt, or other unpreventable issue. It would also be good if you could speak with the employee and find out which days the employee can come in early for check ins instead of requiring every single day they be available in case you want to check in. If you need to impart important details on a project they are working is it possible to send them an email on what you want to convey?

      If you ultimately decide that you want this employee in the office no later than say 8am then sit down with the employee and very clearly say, “I know the company doesn’t have a set time but due to the nature of this department I’m now requiring all employees to be in the office by 8am. All meetings that are scheduled must be attended unless you have a good reason such as a scheduled day/time off or an emergency. ”
      Make sure that you are very direct in your expectations and clear on the fact that this is what the job is going forward that if they can’t meet those requirements then perhaps the job is the right fit for this employee. You may even want to do a write up as just a formal notification of the changes in the job requirements. Not necessarily writing up the employee but giving them the written notification and having them sign it to say they understand the policy you are setting. Then if the employee decides not to follow the policy and continues to be late you have set the grounds for PIP and or dismissal.

    36. LPUK*

      Probably too late to be read but here goes. I feel this one deeply because I am an owl not a lark, in common with a significant proportion of the population, and we seem to be discriminated against in the corporate world in the same way introverts are (which i also am -a double whammy).

      This is a real metabolic difference which is sometimes at odds with corporate hours policy ( which have a tendency to be set by the owls in the business who love to get up early!) it’s very difficult for me to get up, always with the aid of an alarm, driving while groggy is not the safest and when I get to the office early, I don’t get much useful thinking done till nearer 10am ( but i’m Fantastic in the afternoon, which is why i’m consistently a high performer) .

      I deal with this by seeking out jobs/ companies with no defined starting time, aiming to arrive at my desk no later than 9(ish),never being late for a meeting and ensuring I never miss a deadline and deliver consistently great work ( I know your employee isn’t currently meeting this standards). If my boss suddenly started saying I needed to be in at 7 that would be a really big problem for me – it would absolutely affect my performance in the role and my health as I would be fighting fatigue all the time. I am really upset that people are egging you on to make a unilateral change to work conditions without at least exploring why this employee is consistently late and whether there are some accommodations you could negotiate – eg late starts a couple of days a week, guaranteed attendance at weekly meeting, some teleworking if possible… but perhaps the most important is the recognition that your preferred working hours are just that – a personal preference, not a sign of True Morality. There are up to 40% of the population hard-wired for afternoon/evenings, so as a manager, it’s definitely something to be aware of when setting meeting times. Of course your department may be one where certain early starts are necessary – if that’s known owls tend to self-select out of the role ( which is a key consideration for me when considering new roles – why wouldn’t I select a role that enables me to give of my very best), but that wasn’t the case here.
      Finally, your employees reported behaviour does indeed suggest a different, more disciplinary approach as she’s ignored instructions to be on time, but if she produces otherwise good work, it’s still worth going in with an exploratory attitude first.

    37. ATLibrarian*

      Just tell the person they have to be on time for meetings. And schedule the one-on-one meetings ahead of time. I’m in an office environment that’s not front facing, and I never pay attention to when my team gets in. I don’t care as long as the work gets done. They let us know when they’re running late, but as long as they’re not 15 minutes or more late, I don’t need to know except that people get concerned about accidents. It might be because I’m in metro-Atlanta. I can leave my house every day at the same time and one day it’s 1 hr 15 minutes to work, and the next it’s 2 hours. I don’t know how anyone commuting in Atlanta could NOT be late at least one day a week. A coworker once told me it took her 90 minutes to get home one night. She lives 7 miles from work. Traffic had been that badly snarled by an accident.

  2. Quirk*

    From Monday I am going to be looking after a keen and bright new graduate. We have a daunting time ahead of us.

    I’m going to be teaching him a new programming language, one significantly more demanding than the languages he’s used before. I’m going to be teaching him a domain, a toolset, a workflow. All of these are prerequisites for understanding the system I work on, which he is to be trained to work on too and will eventually have to come to understand intimately.

    It’s going to be overwhelming, and there are limits on how much I can shelter him from the complexity, but I have already some vague plans as to tasks which are both educational and somewhat useful, and I am lucky to have a project manager who understands that training new people takes time. Still, it would be good to hear other people’s thoughts on how to make this as successful and pleasant as possible.

    1. Junior Dev*

      With the toolset and workflow can you have him complete some fairly trivial tasks to get the hang of it? I just taught a guy to make pull requests on GitHub by asking him to make some updates to the readme for my project, no coding or running of programs required.

      1. Quirk*

        Yeah, I actually have a tiny configuration file change set aside for him to do which is actually relevant and useful. The change is trivial but he’ll need to go through the proper process. I’m least worried about teaching him the process to be honest, though I guess that’s also going to be part of the new information fire hose.

        1. Junior Dev*

          Is the proper process written down? Is it up to date?

          If it’s not you could add that to his list, because 1) he’ll also learn how to document things 2) writing it will cement it in his brain better.

    2. queen b*

      Do you have job aids or links to YouTube videos they could watch in case they have questions? I find that after an initial training session the people I train like to go back and work on it themselves, whether by looking through materials or just doing it themselves. It may be helpful to set up some sort of training environment, where you have started the code but he can go in and finish it. Good luck!

      1. Quirk*

        Videos not so much. The system has quite a lot of documentation, but this is something of a problem in places as not all of it is as up to date as it could be.

        I have an internal tool I wrote recently and I am planning to get him to develop new features for it – much safer than putting him on complex production code. He can break and fix things there.

    3. Quirk*

      Oh, feel free to rant about terrible training you’ve experienced in the past, by the way, it’s always good to be reminded what not to do.

    4. rubyrose*

      1. Tell him up front that he has to take notes on everything for which you do not have written documentation. If he later come to you with a question that you know he should have taken a note, or that is in written documentation, ask him what his notes say.
      2. After giving him instructions on what you want him to do, ask him to repeat them.

      1. Quirk*

        This is a good thought. Thank you. I think training him to take and organise notes is probably key to helping him get there.

        1. General Ginger*

          I would second the “have him take notes” wholeheartedly, but the 2nd point would drive me bonkers. It’s patronizing.

          1. Quirk*

            Yes, I am not so keen on the second part myself, but I don’t want to focus on the negative and put people off who are coming up with things I haven’t really considered. :)

        2. emmelemm*

          Seconding what rubyrose said, and maybe this is my curmudgeonly “kids today” moment, but it seems nobody takes notes any more, or even writes on paper. Try to get him to do this, as it will be really helpful to him.

          1. rubyrose*

            What’s bothering me is that I’m seeing 40 year olds who don’t take notes!! I don’t consider them to the kids.

      2. Baby Fishmouth*

        Be careful with #2 – I would find it incredibly patronizing to be asked to repeat instructions like I’m a child. It would sour me to the training even if everything else was going well.

        1. rubyrose*

          Fair enough. I should have been clearer. I would not ask that each and every time. But if my person starts showing that he does not follow the instructions, or gets only the first few steps and flounders, I would ask him to repeat the instructions. Or I would start having to give him the first 3 steps, then have him come back for the next 3, etc., instead of giving the all at once.

      3. Jake*

        Yeah, first time you say that to me as a grown ass adult is the first time ill wit a job on the spot.

    5. Ben There*

      A roadmap can be really helpful, not only to new hire, but also to you and to your supervisor. You can make add as much detail as you need to and it can be fleshed out as you go along, but having a written expression of the broad categories of what needs to be covered to complete his training (bonus points for indicators of how they fit together, or why they need to be done in a certain order where that applies!) You really only have to add detail as you arrive at certain milestones. It can be very useful to the trainee, to understand what they have to learn, what is/is not expected of them at various stages,etc. It can help you keep track of where you are/what you’ve covered as you juggle training and doing your regular job responsibilities. It also helps you keep supervisor updated on how far training has advanced and how much more there is to do. Don’t overthink it, but this training is basically its own project and like any other project, would likely benefit from a clear, written plan!

      1. Quirk*

        This is also a good thought. Unfortunately the project manager is off on holiday for the next couple of weeks. Once he gets back though I think having a meeting to sort out a roadmap is a good plan. It might even be better to handle the roadmap after getting to see how he copes initially.

    6. Hlyssande*

      Keep an eye on them to try and recognize when they’re feeling overwhelmed and take breaks from whatever bit is being overwhelming. There’s a point where there’s just too much info at once and a walk to get some water or a bathroom break can really make a difference.

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        Oh my goodness… so much this!!! Just remember (and I only say this, because this is how someone tried to “train” me once) – you can’t treat someone’s brain like a trashbag that you can just shove info into indiscriminately and as quickly as possible.

        Try to present things in an orderly manner and give them a break to absorb things – even better if you can come up with some lighter projects to give them the chance to put some easier concepts into action before moving onto the move advanced concepts.

    7. only acting normal*

      Most of our “keen and bright” new graduates are terrifyingly adept at picking stuff up quickly (only the keen and bright ones mind, some of the others are… not). You give them a task you expect to take a week and they come back 2 hours later looking for more work.
      As long as he genuinely is keen and bright, and you have adequate time carved out in your daily schedule for training him it should be ok.
      Maybe find out how he learns best (watching/shadowing, book-learning, doing a real task with supervision) and weight the training that way. (E.g. I’m a better autodidact than apprentice: I struggle to learn by watching someone, or being told verbally, but I am awesome with learning by doing or using written reference material).

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I have trained a lot of people. Granted it’s not the same as what you are training on but there are some general ideas.

      1) Answer the question that is asked. NOT the question you THINK he asked, but rather the exact question he did ask. This sounds straightforward. I cannot tell you how many times I had to revisit this rule. It is so easy to think they are asking about Xs and they are actually asking about Ys. Pause for a moment to make sure you know if he is talking about Xs or Ys, then answer.

      2) People find the same pitfalls. If something gave you difficulty it is likely that it will give him difficulty to. Say so. Tell him you had a hard time with it and then show him how you overcame that hard time. My work lent itself well to making up stupid reminder rhymes. Sorry, I cannot give an example here. But they were really stupid 4 line poems that I made up off the cuff to remember certain things. People laughed at how silly the poem was, but they remembered. It was helpful with some stuff. Never underestimate the power of telling people that you also had a tough time with something. Not only does it make you appear more human but it also helps them to calm down and realize, “This is actually a little tough.”

      3) If possible give him examples to keep. Give him a binder to put the examples in. Make sure each example has a title. “This is what to do when the zebras get loose” or “”Here is how to handle arguing elephants”.

      4) Stopping points or break points are so very useful. Depending on the work and depending on the employee’s point in progress I did one of these two things: I set stopping points OR I told them to stop if they thought there was a problem.
      On setting stopping points, I kind of based it how far along they were in learning the process. “Okay you seem like you have a good handle on steps 1-7. Do them and then stop let me know that you are ready for step 8.”
      On deciding to call for help with a process. “I think you have a good handle on this, so go as far as you can. If you have a problem or concern, stop and let me know.”

      5) Above all else, think out loud. I am mostly introverted. I think quietly to myself. Try not to do that. Let him see you work through a problem. People learn how to look at problems by watching us look at problems. When we think out loud we are showing them how we break a problem down in to manageable parts and we show them what paths we use to find solutions.

      I have never met anyone yet who did not sharpen me as a trainer. Each person has something that they will show you about teaching others. They usually do not realize that is what they are doing. He will show you what methods work best for his way of learning, it’s fine to keep using his preferred methods over and over in different questions.

    9. Lucille2*

      Been on the trainee’s side of this. Some suggestions I’ve found useful below:
      – Create some exercises that your trainee can complete on their own one a weekly or so basis. A lot of people learn best by doing, and gear the exercises around real-world scenarios they would work on without any risk tied to it.
      – This is a great time to teach some good coding habits. And I mean clean, organized code that another programmer can come in and easily work on.
      – Point him in the direction of some useful self-learning tools. There is a wealth of knowledge out there searchable by google. If your company has any e-learning resources like Lynda.com, this can take some of the load off your plate too. He’s coming from grad school, so doing some self-learning shouldn’t be too much of a stretch for him.
      – Remember that learning the new programming language is his responsibility, not yours. You’re simply providing guidance. I say this mainly to keep your own frustrations in check. It’s great that your project manager understands what you’re working with.

    10. Piano Girl*

      My previous job had a very steep learning curve – complicated software, multiple entities, etc. it was good to know that everybody finds it daunting.

    11. Qwerty*

      Off the top of my head from my days of mentoring college grads and interns:
      1) In addition to taking notes, have him update the documentation as he learns things. If there are steps missing from the documentation, or information that is vague, it’ll be helpful to the whole team and any future new hires if that info is updated, plus being able to describe a process demonstrates understanding it. The guideline my team used was to leave the documentation in the state you wish you found it in.
      2) If you don’t already have a code review process, set that up now. Include him as a silent reviewer on the pull requests for more experienced people, so he can see examples of how to do things and ask questions like what does that symbol mean and why is X better than Y?
      3) Seconding the suggestions to start with small items and work your way to larger ones. It’s helpful to have some easy wins early on so he doesn’t just feel like he’s drowning in new information.
      4) Once he gets past the small items, start responding to questions with where to look to find the information or a probing question to help him figure it out. Don’t do this for all questions, but just enough to help him learn. Eventually
      5) Trying working on his machine before his start date. New hire machines almost always have software/plugins/licenses missing and this is the easiest way to flush out the missing components.
      6) Do you use a universal coding standard or a company specific one? Link to this in your documentation
      7) Make sure that you are approachable!! If you aren’t getting questions from your new hire, then check in with him, and preferable designate one or two other people as “backups” for if you are busy. Explain what your preferred communication method is (IM, email, in person, etc). I’ve seen so many trainees flounder because they felt like they were interrupting if they bothered their mentor with a question. The first couple weeks really need to have a “there are no dumb” questions vibe.

    12. marmalade*

      Regarding the new programming language, can you earmark a few days to teach that to him and get him to write a little game in it or something? Then you can work through refactoring, coding principles, writing tests, github stuff, etc. That’ll help ensure that he has a good working knowledge of the language, but also that he’s starting off on the right foot re: coding quality, problem solving, programming principles etc.

      I did something like this when I started a grad developer role, and it was incredible. I can’t advise it enoug!

    13. Student*

      Successful and pleasant are sometimes mutually exclusive goals. The system is unpleasant and the training options to deal with that are limited. Own up to that and focus on successful rather than pleasant.

      Also, in my experience, plan for short-term failure here. Failure is actually a great teacher for complex systems like this. Teach him the right way. Plan for him to try doing his own thing, failing, and then having to explain the way you do a thing. It’s okay for him to fail, and should even be expected. If he’s not failing, he’s not trying enough on his own, and he’s not exploring the system enough. Part of that is supporting him through failure – making sure he knows it’s okay for something to not work out, and helping him figure out how to handle that failure positively. If you ream him out or make fun of him for inevitable failures during training, that’s what turns a lot of people off.

    14. Minocho*

      If there is an official “documentation” repository of some sort, this is a great time to create/improve/update it with regard to this system – an extension of the taking notes suggestion. I am definitely a learning by doing person – I’d rather get thrown into the deep end, especially if I know I have a life preserver a few feet away I can swim to if I find myself drowning a bit. I know that doesn’t work for everyone, so when teaching I also try an approach where they shadow me on troubleshooting something they wouldn’t necessarily be ready for on their own. I try to explain why I’m doing what I’m doing, and my troubleshooting thought process. If this system involves a lot of communication with tech support, team members or end users, they can also see how you interact, and begin to learn about the people involved as well.

      A shiny new graduate may not know how he/she learns best – but they’ve just come out of academia, so they may! Ask! They may be able to guide you as well.

      Whenever I have a chance to teach something, I know that this will be my chance to prove that I not only can do something, but I really *understand* it. If I don’t understand it, look at it from different points of view and present it to someone else in multiple ways, I can’t teach it – so I look at teaching as an opportunity to look for my own weaknesses to work on too.

  3. Foreign Octopus*

    So I saw something on Pinterest this morning that made me set down my cup of tea a little hard. It was the image of a tweet about how to get an interview and it went like this:

    1. Find out the name of the recruiter.
    2. Call the recruiter and say that you had a voicemail from them asking to schedule an interview.
    3. Schedule an interview.

    I was like nooooo don’t do this. This is bad. Alison says no!

    1. Tiny Teapot*

      “How to not get an actual interview” or “how to offend many people at a place you want to work, and probably won’t get to”

    3. Amber Rose*

      “How to get blacklisted by every recruiter and many employers by proving yourself sneaky and untrustworthy.”

    4. PB*

      OMG no! We know who we want to invite for interviews, and we do it by email, and they have no idea what schedule we do it on. This is awful. It’s a really good way to get yourself written off at a place you want to work.

    5. Falling Diphthong*

      Set fire to resume and cover letter for this company, for this and future jobs. Watch them burn. Chuckle softly to self.

    6. Persimmons*

      I can’t help but wonder if they heard the anecdotes about vocalists getting a record deal this way (Martina McBride was one).

    7. irene adler*

      But then once the caller’s name is given, the recruiter will say, “I’m sorry, I never contacted you. And no, I’m not going to schedule that interview. Have a nice day. Good-bye!”
      (and that’s assuming caller actually reaches the recruiter and does not get routed to the voicemail)

      Lots of recruiters are using email + scheduling apps to set up interview appointments. So there aren’t any voicemails to return.

      Most likely the caller’s motives will be quickly found out. Which makes them look pretty bad to the recruiter.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Right? Like, how dumb do they think the recruiters are? They’re not going to look up the caller’s name and see if they actually did leave a voice mail?

        “Oh, dang! I clearly put this person’s resume in the “no” pile, but now they’re calling me to say I didn’t! Obviously, this random stranger knows my mind and my applicant tracking system better than I do – I will schedule an interview immediately!” LOL.

    8. Cruciatus*

      Relatedly, yesterday on nbcnews dot com they had an article about the hidden job market and how to tap into it. I won’t link to it here, but it’s under their business section still.

      1. Observer*

        That’s annoying and poor advice. But the advice to actually lie and act like the recruiter / hiring manager is a dope is a whole different level of bad.

    9. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      I was advised this early on. I decided I’d rather not work for a place where I knew things like this worked, even if I could bring myself to do it.

    10. Bea*

      I would assume I got the number wrong if I were the recruiter. Apologize for the mistake and not interview the person.

      It doesn’t work. They won’t have your resume to cross reference. Rolling my eyes hard at this.

    11. Not really a Waitress*

      Ha! This reminds me of one I saw that said How to get a Job like Beyonce. Show up and say “I work here now.”

      1. Zennish*

        That would probably work if you actually were Beyonce, and if it were a record company. There are very few Beyonces…one, at last count.

      2. ella*

        Last I checked, Beyonce doesn’t apply for jobs anywhere, and basically never has. She was in Destiny’s Child by the time she was like 16.

    12. BRR*

      I wonder if the creator of this wonderful idea ever considered that one minuscule issue of the recruiter possibly knowing who they want to interview? When I was single, I would receive initial messages from people online with the subject “Re: Hi.” That is a guaranteed way to make it on my sh!t list.

      1. Observer*

        Yeah, the second I see re: anything is the subject line from someone I don’t already know, it gets deleted unread.

    15. Miaw*

      Which recruiter is stupid enough to fall for this?
      If they are stupid enough, do u really want to work in a place run by idiots.

    17. Just this once*

      I actually kind of did this once – my roommate and I both applied to the same place for seasonal work, they called and left a message on the machine asking to schedule an interview (back in the days when roommates shared landlines), but they didn’t specify who they wanted the interview with. We decided to play dumb and we both placed separate return calls scheduling an interview. The day of my interview I sat down with the manager and while we were making introductory small talk the receptionist came in and said she could not find my application materials anywhere (guess they had called my roommate). The manager waved her away saying that was fine, he would interview me without them. Both my roommate and I ended up getting hired.

    18. Jadelyn*

      Oh my god that would have me immediately not only trash their application, but mark them down as “never interview” for any positions in the future as well. Don’t track me down, call me, and then LIE TO ME! That’s three strikes right there.

  4. I can't eat sandwiches*

    It seems to me that a lot of the commentary lately has involved worst-case scenarios or conjecture about details not in the OP’s letter. Do you find this type of discussion helpful or do you think it derails the thread?

    1. WellRed*

      Annoying and unhelpful. I had someone point out myriad worst case scenarios on a simple comment I made that were nit referenced in the letter and would not have made a difference in the advice given.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      Eh, for most human interactions the correct answer is ‘either extreme is ridiculous, you need to be in this middle range.’ For example, ‘no nonwork conversation ever’ doesn’t really relate to how social animals actually function in groups. At the other end, someone is so obsessed with turning every work conversation into a dissertation on how Han shot first* that people start to avoid interacting with them, with is not functional for a workplace. The correct middle ground range between these points that counts as ‘professional’ will legitimately vary, not just between individual preferences, but between workplaces. I think a lot of worst-casing is just “in my view/experience if you’re to the left of this line the behavior is okay, but to the right of this line it’s not.” With the right context you can make almost anything okay or not okay, so people throw out contexts.

      *Han shot first. The rightness of the obsessive position is not the issue here.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Hmm. To go briefly meta–With more context from downthread I am shifting my position on this. But it’s because examples like Politics OMG! and What If They Have Dropsy? resonate–and those are more worst casing than my initial interpretation.

      1. ExceptionToTheRule*

        I can confirm it does. I very rarely delve into them anymore to read, let alone comment. Friday open thread is usually the exception.

        1. Windchime*

          This is kind of where I’m at, too. There are either hundreds of derailing conversations (“I love your handle!” “Oh, thanks, it comes from TV Show X!” + 300 comments about X) or tons of repetitive comments, basically re-stating what Alison said. But the worst are the assumptions and the accusations that the OP is “hiding something” by not giving enough information.

          It’s exhausting. I read the posts and Alison’s advice, maybe a few comments. Once the repetition or derailing starts, I quit reading.

          1. a1*

            I’ve noticed a trend to bend over backwards coming up with all sorts of reasons to give the subject of the letter the benefit of the doubt, while doing the opposite for the LWs themselves (bending over backwards to come up with all sorts of reasons NOT to give the LW the benefit of the doubt).

    4. anon for this*

      Annoying and unhelpful, and it derails into a lot of hand wringing and anecdotes that aren’t useful.

      But I can deal with that or scroll. What I’m finding irritating is that “popular” or “well-known” commenters get away with things that other people get dogpiled for. Or if you disagree with their advice, you get bombarded with white knights defending them and their commenting history. Just because someone gives what you think is reasonable advice doesn’t mean I can’t disagree with them.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I think to some extent that happens because when someone is a regular commenter, you have context for their words — from their previous comments, you have an idea of where they’re coming from and in that context, it’s human nature that it’s going to be easier to give someone the benefit of the doubt. But I do think you’re right that it can result in what you’re describing.

        1. anon for this*

          I just know that it’s made me less likely to comment or read the comments because I don’t want to have to worry about getting dogpiled at because I politely disagreed with someone and didn’t have three years previous knowledge of their commenting history.

          1. Lily Evans*

            Yeah, I’ve noticed that a lot lately, the expectation from “regulars” that everyone in the comment section should know specific details about them as an explanation for why they interact a certain way. And it’s not even the specific commenter half the time, it’s other regular commenters jumping in to defend them based on their posting history. It feels very clique-y.

            1. a1*

              Well, sometimes it is the specific commenter, too. I see posts that start with “As you know, I am currently dealing with X” or “You all know I am/did …” And I’m thinking “No, I don’t know.” And it’s not even in reference to something said elsewhere in that thread, but something they’ve been discussing for weeks on Open Threads or something. Sorry, no, I don’t read every word you write.

        2. JamieS*

          I think it routinely results in what was described.

          I normally see 3 things happen:

          1. Commenter is blatantly rude/unhelpful/breaks rule and people excuse it with something like “Commenter said X but I know they meant Y even though they blatantly said X”

          2. Comment is ambiguous and could be ok if good intentions are assumed and taken badly if bad intentions see assumed. A lot of times good intentions are assumed for some and bad intentions are automatically assumed if it’s an “other” commenting even if the good interpretation is much more likely.

          3. The comment isn’t rude/unhelpful/etc. but someone disagrees and they’re dog piled for daring to disagree with the “cool crowd”.

          1. President Porpoise*

            4. Regular commenter post 30+ comments in a thread defending their position, thereby making it look like most commenters agree with their position, if people aren’t paying attention to who says what – and then religiously replies aggressively to anyone who disagrees, regardless of whether the disagreement was posted in a respectful/considerate manner.

            5. Certain regulars snipe at each other all the time, and may pull in historical debates for extra spice. Not fun, not helpful, and I like to see a wide variety of experiences and viewpoints in a blog that gives advice for many almost universal dilemmas.

          2. Lily Rowan*

            I know I basically did a combination of 1 and 2 the other day, and it was totally unconscious. I said, “X poster said ABC,” someone else was like, “No, ABC is totally reasonable, but they actually said DEF,” and I had to go back to read the original comment to realize it was true! I had totally unconsciously translated their actual comment into something much more reasonable.

            I don’t know if it helps to think people aren’t doing it on purpose, but that was definitely true for me recently.

            1. JamieS*

              No it doesn’t really help to think the problem is caused by people being unable to comprehend a comment before replying. Everyone makes occasional mistakes, maybe misreads a word or skips over an important sentence, which is understandable but considering how often it happens if lack of reading comprehension is one of the main causes that’s extremely concerning to me and not remotely comforting.

      2. Les G*

        Cosigned. I’ve found myself at the bottom of dogpiles, or had comments removed, while favorite regulars who left equally rules-violating comments were off the hook. It starts to feel cliquish.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I’ll try to pay more attention to that. Sometimes there’s inconsistency just because I don’t see everything — so a comment that I’d remove if I saw it stays up because I didn’t see it. But I’m sure I do bring my own biases to it as well. (That said, I consider you a favorite regular!)

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Unfortunately I looked into them last year and none of them (that are compatible with WordPress) are great. The obstacle is that they all will automatically remove a comment after it gets a certain number of flags, which I thought was really open to abuse.

              There is a workaround, although it’s a bit of a pain — you can flag a comment by replying to it with something like “Alison look at this” and including a link. The link will send it to moderation and I’ll see it pretty quickly. Some people do this and I really appreciate it.

              1. Les G*

                I agree that the flagging-then-removing system sounds…not great. The catch 22 is that, as you say above, you can’t be everywhere at once and miss offensive comments. But the self-appointed moderators reinforce the problem folks are talking about above. So maybe you could encourage folks to lean more heavily on the links option?

                2. Vanellope*

                  I can’t remember what website it was, maybe feministe? But their work around was to have commenters request a giraffe – when things got out of hand just literally say “I think we need a giraffe in this thread” and that way I believe moderators could either search for the word or have it flagged and know where to they were needed. Basically any word unlikely to come up in regular conversation. It seemed to work pretty well over there!

    5. Robin Q*

      Agreed that this is very unhelpful. I think if the “I can’t eat sandwiches rule” was more abused by it would help-often the derails start with people arguing with the original commenter about how their suggestion is rude to a very specific, narrow subset of the population.

      1. Snark*

        It can get kind of performative, too: watch me, the Wokest Commenter Who Ever Commented, issuing a blistering takedown of this un-woke asshole who said a Problematic Thing! BOOM MIC DROP

        I generally find that if I assume that posters in this commentariat are commenting in good faith and with good intent, I’m not often disappointed.

      2. JamieS*

        I’ve noticed that too. Along the same lines it’s extremely annoying to make a post and a large chunk of the replies are about some exception to what was posted.

        I’m convinced that, depending on who it was that commented, if someone made the comment “In general 8 year olds are shorter than adults” that half the replies would either be people posting about someone who was 6’2 at 8 years old or calling the person who originally made the comment a bigot because some 8 year olds can be taller than some little people.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’ve also noticed a lot of catastrophising and “what about”s, and honestly, it drives me away. Well, first I roll my eyes a lot. But yes, unhelpful. I particularly find it grating when someone says something like, “Well, maybe she acts this way because she was a victim of X when she was a child,” or, “She sounds like she has a disorder so you should give her a break.” I find it dismissive of the OP who is trying to find a way to solve a problem and doesn’t need to be lectured on empathy and understanding. I walk around with empathy every day, it doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to get irritated with the person who cut me off on the highway.

      1. BRR*

        Same here. It feels like the prompt is to figure out all possible scenarios. It’s a wonderful thing that people are considering additional perspectives, but we don’t need to take it as a challenge to consider every possible thing.

      2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        I can’t agree with everything you’ve said here. I find the catastrophizing of what-ifs terribly unhelpful.

        For some reason we are all very capable of understanding that 1 or 2 people might be struck by lightning every year, that doesn’t mean we are all doomed to be called sparky if we leave the house when it rains, but when it comes to some of the topics here the first instinct is to go to the least likely outcome.

      3. Les G*

        This so hard. I swear some folks view the questions as creative writing prompts. It’s not helpful to the OP who wrote in, and I would never consider writing in having read the comments because I know I’ll write 10 paragraphs trying to explain everything and someone will still find a way to speculate.

        1. anon for this*

          This. I have an issue I’d love to write in about, but seeing the trend in comments and some of the feelings about my particular topic in previous comments, I’m wary about writing in. I’d like Alison’s advice, but I think the comments and speculation would make me upset. I asked for advice once before in an open thread and the what-ifs and speculation was awful.

            1. General Ginger*

              Kind of piggybacking off of this, how do you decide which letters to publish together? What deters me from writing in, and what I think contributes to some comments shenanigans is when there is a really “mundane” letter (my coworker whistles all the time) alongside a really heavy one (my boss pushed me and says it’s because of a phobia). When I see posts like that, I pretty much know to skip the comments, because they’re going to ignore the whistling coworkers and make wild speculation about the boss/employee.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Do you mean within a short answer post? I look for an interesting mix. The large majority of readers don’t read the comments at all, so primarily I’m looking for what will make a good mix of content, which is a different question that what will be optimal for the comment section, unfortunately. (And it doesn’t make sense to cater the content to the comments section because commenters account for such a small proportion of overall readers.)

                1. Detective Amy Santiago*

                  Have you ever considered making top level ‘threads’ for the short answer posts. Like, you make a comment that says “Discuss #1 Here”, “Discuss #2 Here” etc? That way each individual letter has it’s own separate area.

                2. General Ginger*

                  Thanks, Alison. I’m going to +1 to Det. Amy’s suggestion — maybe setting up dedicated comment threads.

                3. Basia, also a Fed*

                  I agree wholeheartedly with the Detective above. Sometimes when comments get out of control on one letter, it’s too exhausting to try to pick through the other comments to find the ones on the other letters in which I’m interested. If Alison started a comment thread for each one (“Discuss #2 here” – great idea, Detective!), it would be so much easier to navigate the comments.

          2. tra la la*

            Same here. Way too hard to frame the question in a way that doesn’t feel too specific but also doesn’t trigger all kinds of speculation.

      4. Not a Real Giraffe*

        My absolute favorite line of late is, “I know we aren’t supposed to armchair diagnose here, but [insert armchair diagnosis.]”

          1. soon 2be former fed*

            That post was amazing and should be required reading for all internet commenters.

        2. krysb*

          If I used what I read here, I would have to assume that I’m the only person in the world that doesn’t have some sort of anxiety disorder.

      1. Washi*

        I think it’s helpful only if it is more than like 5% likely to be true AND changes the advice. But a lot of times it’s “this could be a symptom of depression” or something, and it just doesn’t change anything to speculate on that.

        1. Snark*

          I like the “if it changes the advice” distinction, but it can still be irritating if someone just leaps out in the universe of the unknown. Speculation really needs to stick to reasonably, defensibly filling in gaps between facts presented by OPs, not inventing new facts and factors not mentioned.

          1. On Fire*

            Abusive relationships, mental illness and substance abuse seem to be the usual suspects when this starts. I think that’s common to many online boards, though. I see it a lot: “My partner and I had an argument – ” “YOU’RE IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP RUN AWAY.”

            1. Snark*

              “OP, have you read Gift of Fear?”

              *not to cast aspersions at that very fine book, but it’s just sort of become a trope.

              1. bonkerballs*

                Oh God, yes. And I know I can be a somewhat contrary person, so the fact that that books has come up so very often in the comments has pretty much guaranteed that I will never read it.

            2. LJay*

              Yeah, I’m hesitant to post things about my relationship online because people automatically jump to “abusive relationship”.

              I’ve been in abusive relationships. I’m not in one now. I’m in a relationship with healthy boundaries, and that includes my significant other sometimes expecting me to compromise sometimes by changing the way I do things, just as I sometimes expect him to compromise by changing the way he does things.

              Asking how I can better remember to close a shower curtain after I use the shower doesn’t mean I’m in an abusive relationship. It means my boyfriend likes the shower curtain to be closed, while I have no strong feelings on the shower curtain position, so I would like to remember to close it for him.

              Somehow it’s okay to ask your coworkers to completely change all their toiletries and cleaning products, but if you ask your significant other to do any one thing it shows that your relationship is problematic.

          2. OhNo*

            I definitely agree with the “if it changes the advice” distinction. There have been multiple times when I’ve written a long comment or reply, just to close with, “But none of that affects what you should do”

            … And then I usually delete the comment, because why waste comment space on something that’s not actually helpful and doesn’t change the advice Alison has given?

            It’s not necessarily bad to have comments reminding you to consider X, or asking “what if Y, would that change how you felt?”. But when half the comments are like that, and each one has a string of “that’s ridiculous/unhelpful/beside the point/armchair diagnosing/sandwiches!” replies, it gets old in a hurry.

    8. Amadeo*

      I think it’s pretty derailing and unhelpful to the OP in most instances, to be honest. It doesn’t seem to be limited to just a repeated handful of people for *every* one, but there’s a predictable handful of people for almost each ‘hot button’ subject that repeatedly do it.

    9. Snark*

      Yeah, it’s gotten frustrating a number of times lately – especially when there’s a contentious social and political issues at play, I feel like half the comment thread tends to devolve into advice column fanfic and performative callouts. We know what the OP tells us, and getting way off in the weeds of speculation does nobody any good.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yesssss. If anyone has advice on how I can better manage this (with the caveat that I’m not online 24/7 and additional moderators are not on the table right now), I’d love to hear it. A perfectly worded comment rule? A heavier hand with banning repeat violators? I’m very open to input on this.

        1. Robin Q*

          Could you just take a few days to moderate a little more heavily? There are lots of repeat offenders with this and if you’re around to catch it quickly and point it out hopefully it will die down. It might not have to be something ongoing.

            1. Lily Rowan*

              Also maybe having comments only open for a set period? Like, you know you’re available to babysit the comments for four hours today — the likely-to-be-controversial goes up at the beginning of that time period and comments are closed at the end of it.

              1. Zombeyonce*

                This could be really problematic because there are commentors all over the world in many different time zones, and they’d either be left out of commenting completely or Alison would have to set aside hours for every single post, which would quickly add up to more time than she’s awake in a day.

                1. caledonia*

                  Again, you are never going to please everyone.

                  What if Alison keeps comments open for 1 or 2 days? (Oh! what if people are on holiday/on a work retreat in the woods/in a coma etc)

                2. bonkerballs*

                  @caledonia

                  I don’t know that that would really do anything since it seems to me the vast majority of comments on a particular post would be over by then. I mean, I’m in the US on the west coast. If I’m reading at work in the morning, I’ll refresh the comments pretty frequently to see what’s new. But by 3pm or so? Commenting seems to be pretty much over by then.

              2. FD*

                Yeah, I like that idea. I think CA leaves them up for a period of days–which lets people in time zones comment–and then closes them to save moderator time.

            2. Qwerty*

              It would also be good to do this a few days after a post gets a lot of attention or you are featured regularly on a new site. Those instances seem to bring in a lot of new commenters that change the general tone/culture of the comment section.

            3. AcademiaNut*

              I like this, and I also really like it when you remove an entire problematic thread or subthread to tidy up the comments.

              A lot of the issues I have with the comments are not trolls or outrageous individual posts, but patterns. Time-zone wise, I tend to come into the comments when they are full, so to me it’s blindingly obvious when a couple of regulars have gotten into a sniping match, or one poster feels very very strongly about an issue and is posting half the comments, or the what-about-sandwiches posts have spiralled out of control.

            4. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

              If you do decide to do a reset, you don’t have to do it this week. You can wait till you have some extra free time.

              And maybe save up a few of the particularly fraught letters to release then.

        2. Snark*

          I think both approaches have merit. Writing a rule is tough because some speculation – or at least, reasonable filling-in of obvious gaps in information provided – is pretty necessary for you to issue advice and for us to discuss it. But….

          “Please limit speculation on facts not presented by letter writers to reasonable, defensible assumptions based on what information is provided. Posters making a habit of unwarranted, sweeping speculation about facts not in a letter will be warned and may be banned.”

          And, frankly, I think a little more elaboration on the benefit of the doubt rule could be warranted too.

          2. Observer*

            I’d probably modify to include that the speculation should make a difference to how you approach the problem. Because sometimes the speculation is defensible but still derailing because it really doesn’t matter.

            eg The mommy who talks her head off about her perfect kids. The speculation that she’s dealing with insecurities of her own is very defensible. But it’s really incredibly useless because it does nothing to change the OP’s approach.

            1. Snark*

              I really like that litmus test: is this speculation likely to result in a conclusion that is actionable for OP or someone else in a similar situation?

              There’s a difference between:

              “She’s clearly dealing with personal insecurities about being a mom. It’s incredibly misogynist to just assume she’s being this way because she’s annoying and self-centered.”
              and…
              “Keep in mind that a lot of behaviors like this are rooted in personal insecurity, so when you talk to her, I’d take the approach of….”

              2. Queen of the File*

                Thank you for this clarification. I tend to see speculation as people looking for empathetic context (unless it is on the way extreme end of the WTF meter) and so I sometimes have trouble figuring out what exactly is annoying to people. It’s helpful to see an example.

          3. Lissa*

            To me, the problem isn’t when one person speculates. It’s when 12 more people jump in to agree, lecture the OP on empathy, and talk about their own experiences with abuse, bullying etc. as though it is *obviously* what’s going on. Then people read the comment section, see ALL the comments about it, and kinda forget that actually nothing in the original letter said for sure the person was food insecure, suffered from depression etc. So it really can take over, as opposed to being mentioned as one possibility of many with some useful solutions.

            1. Washi*

              Yeah, I notice a similar thing whenever there’s a question about pretty basic work expectations, like being on time/paying attention in meetings/being polite to your coworkers where people jump in some argument about how that is oppressive or maybe someone has a rare medical condition that won’t allow them to do that.

              1. Washi*

                (I’m thinking in particular about that letter where the person’s employee kept falling asleep in meetings, and I was baffled by the number of comments about how it could be because the meeting is really boring, or because the employee has insomnia, when regardless, you just shouldn’t be regularly falling asleep at work!)

          4. paul*

            Rules without a means to enforce them don’t do much good though. The fundamental rules of commentating here seem pretty sound to me and not all that atypical. It’s just that one person trying to moderate a fairly popular blog, that doesn’t even use registration, is a recipe for what the commentary here has become.

        3. Annie Moose*

          I certainly don’t think banning speculation would be a good idea (you’ve got to do a little extrapolation to talk about a letter!), but maybe a rule asking people to minimize their speculation and not argue over things that aren’t actually in the letter?

          Of course, merely writing a rule doesn’t make people follow it–but it can make it easier for us commenters to be like, “hey, this seems like excessive speculation which is against the rules” and hopefully nip things in the bud. (similar to the “don’t argue the same thing in every comment thread” rule)

          1. Snark*

            I like the idea of mentioning arguing about facts not in a letter, because that’s been happening a LOT lately.

            1. OhNo*

              Not gonna lie, I like this idea a lot just because I feel like every time I got to point it out, I’d write, “Objection! Counsel is arguing facts not in evidence. Judge Alison, I move that these remarks be stricken from the record.”

          2. ChachkisGalore*

            I think I agree with you… I think some level of light/minor speculation can be helpful. There are definitely times where I’ve read a letter, come to a conclusion about the subject of the letter, then come down to the comments and read someone’s take on the behavior that never even occurred to me (in the vein of, it could be insecurity about her role as a working on mom rather than straight up kid narcissism causing the recent mom-oversharer letter). That sort of speculation wouldn’t change what I’d do about the situation, but it would absolutely change how I did it or how I approached it.

            It definitely gets to be too much sometimes – it’s not really helpful to hear crazy theories based on things decidedly not in the letters at all or very, very rare/unlikely explanations. My bigger issue though, is the speculation that goes too far PLUS the commentor digs in and defends this idea as the only and absolutely correct interpretation of the situation at hand.

            So yeah I like the no excessive speculation idea!

        4. anon for this*

          Would you consider putting something in bold at the end of each letter and at the top of the comment section? Maybe if people saw the rule after you gave your advice, it might stop some of it? I think people are less likely to click a link to read about commenting rules tbh.

        5. shortbread*

          An upvote/downvote system would probably be really helpful. I feel a lot of the dog-piling comes from people who just want to “+1” or “this”.

          1. anon for this*

            I think this would make it worse. Because then the crowd who is well known and loved would get all their comments automatically upvoted and those comments aren’t always necessarily the most useful, insightful, or relevant.

          2. Detective Amy Santiago*

            I’m not a fan of up/down votes, but I do think implementing “featured comments” could be a potentially useful thing that happens on another blog I read that has an active commenting community.

            Basically, Alison can move up comments to the top that provide exceptionally useful information for the OP.

            On the post the other day about the restaurant changing policies to try to decrease the number of overdoses that were happening on site, this comment came in later, but was very informative and balanced and I wish it had been higher up.

            https://www.askamanager.org/2018/08/i-disagree-with-my-restaurants-new-policies-to-fight-drug-use-should-we-make-job-offers-by-email-and-more.html#comment-2109532

            1. caledonia*

              But is a debate between (some people) enough not to try new ideas out? That thread is about 18 months old now. Also, the original comment about up/down voting is from 2014!! The site has *definitely* evolved since then.
              And to be honest, I think instead of random debates in threads/posts a better place would be a proper standalone post one day.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                I still find the reasons discussed there compelling reasons not to do it, especially the point about how it tends to homogenize a community. I don’t think those points are out of date. (I also don’t think up-voting would solve the biggest problems.)

        6. Emi.*

          I think expanding (and more strictly enforcing) the armchair diagnosing rule would help, and a heavier hand with topics that are likely to become contentious (like the LITERALLY NAZIS thread from a couple weeks ago).

          2. Lissa*

            great example. The politically charged ones get this way a lot, because some people immediately assume “contentious/disagreeable political views”=”people want to literally kill me” and then respond as would be reasonable if someone wanted to kill you, and get super angry when someone suggests a less extreme reaction. And I mean…I understand why, in this political climate, this happens, but to my mind it still doesn’t make it useful or necessary to be in this comment section. It also gets really really performative with people getting tons of agreeing/cheering comments for a short, blunt, black and white response suggestion.

            1. Jaguar*

              Yeah, that’s by far the biggest problem, in my opinion. There are comments on here that can’t even remotely be considered sensible, and the “people are trying to kill us” discussion a while back is the prime example. It’s really discouraging. I used to like to comment here because I would get a lot of thoughtful new perspectives, but I’ve gotten half-way through a posts over the past year-or-so now and felt, “why am I even bothering?” and closed the browser instead (I just had the compulsion on this post, in fact). It’s hard to offer conversation in good faith when you expect the responses to be in bad faith, whether that’s ideological arguments, assuming ulterior motives for taking a position, deciding topics are off limits, etc. I don’t think the edge case/worst-case-scenario stuff would be so bad because if the people suggesting them were operating in good faith, they could be reasoned out of it. The bad faith version is, “How dare you suggest that OP’s uncomfortably with [minor situation] doesn’t mean their life is in danger!?”

          3. BenAdminGeek*

            Emi, I think this is a great idea – focus more on contentious topics (where possible, I know Alison doesn’t have all day every day) and police those more heavily. I agree the LITERALLY NAZIS comments were very frustrating as someone who wanted to engage in the issue.

        7. Hiring Mgr*

          Isn’t some speculation always going to occur though? Unless you limit the questions to those that are chock full of all the details. But i guess some of it is over the top (maybe you shouldn’t get Bob that Greatest Dad mug because he lost a child, was abandoned hismself as a kid, could never have babies, might have misophonia, frizzy hair, etc..)

        8. On Fire*

          I’m going to offer this and then step away, because it’s my third comment.

          One of my favorite blogs specifies in its rules that comments should be succinct (it recommends 100 words max), and then bluntly says, “If you’re commenting more than three times a day, it’s too much.”

          I frequently see commenters coming back to defend or expound upon or simply rehash their point, in either the same thread or a separate thread of the same post. I immediately start collapsing or scrolling.

          That would be my suggestion: an honor system that posters only comment X times on each topic. So for a 5-short-questions post, one could comment twice per question, but then that’s it. Move on.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I’ve thought about that! My reluctance is that there have been some really great exchanges in the comment section that wouldn’t have occurred with that rule.

            1. JokersandRogues*

              Maybe just that they can’t post the same thing with no change more than once? Sometimes people get so caught up, that they think people aren’t listening so they repeat (maybe not verbatim, but in spirit) the same thing.

              1. JokersandRogues*

                And hit Send too soon. Maybe call it “Belaboring the Point”.

                We got it, Stan, we got your point, really, the first time, the subsequent 10 weren’t necessary.

              2. LJay*

                I think this is a good rule. I know I get caught up in doing this sometimes, and I know of a few other offenders, too.

                It’s hard for me to shake the instinct to respond to every relevant thread with whatever insight I think is important, or to not tell all the people I think are way off-base that I think they are way off-base. But ultimately it doesn’t help the OP at all.

                I think the “no arguing about information that isn’t actually in the letter” and “don’t post more than one comment with the same main idea to the thread” would cut down on a lot of the issues in the comments.

            2. Cat Herder*

              So Alison, what’s your aim in having comments? Are you hoping for addtional advice that enhances/adds to/deepens your own advice? Interaction between readers? Focused discussion? Vigorous debate? Enjoyable chit chat? Interesting tangents? I’ve seen all of these. And enjoyed all of them at one time or another.

          2. Lissa*

            I don’t object to a back and forth, or people commenting a few different times. But there are a few commenters who will do this in what feels like a really aggressive way because they come in and make like 20 comments all at once on different top-level threads, so like every single person who comments with a response about why they think apples at the potluck are a good idea will have that person reply to their comment with something that’s basically like “No, you’re wrong, apples are terrible and you shouldn’t even think about them.” Or even “Like I said, apples are absolutely awful for Reason X and Y.” Like, if they have responded that way to one or two and made their own top-level comment about why apples are a tool of the corporate devils, fine, but going through and responding personally to everyone who has a different opinion just seems like a massive amount of overkill.

            1. President Porpoise*

              This is what I meant above. It is super annoying, and honestly pretty offensive to people wo are commenting in good faith. There are a handful of regulars in particular, and it is off putting.

              Nuanced debate? Sure. I’m fine with a sub-thread between a few commenters where they dig down and explore an issue in detail, but bludgeoning everyone who disagrees with you into silence on a who post, I think, is a violation of the ‘be kind’ rule in its own way.

            2. Annie Moose*

              Yeahhhh. Two places in particular I noticed it recently were on the Narcan thread and the museum-tour-Nazis thread. You had the same people saying the same things fifteen different places, often responding to each other with the same arguments.

              This is already against the rules, though, so maybe just being more aggressive with that particular rule?

              1. LJay*

                Yeah. I’ve definitely seen two commenters discussing/arguing over the same thing with each other in multiple different sub-threads and it definitely makes the opinions seem more prevalent than they actually were in the post.

                I’ve seen a few times where a poster says, “A bunch of people said XYZ in the post on ABC,” and then Allison goes and looks and says “Actually only one or two people said XYZ. Everyone else was saying TUV.” However, when the one person saying XYZ said it 25 times in the post, it can seem like that point had more agreement than it actually did.

        9. Hiring Mgr*

          I would volunteer to be a moderator, with the ability to edit or remove comments as needed. Or better yet there could be a site-wide vote and the top three candidates are the official “mods” for AAM. I’m happy to arrange for campaigns, debates, etc among the commentariat

          1. Detective Amy Santiago*

            Can I be your campaign manager?

            (also this is def a joke for people who aren’t familiar with Hiring Mgr)

        10. FD*

          I feel like a few things that might help include:

          1. A post reminding people about comment rules, and maybe giving examples of comments done well and (fake–wouldn’t be nice to call people out that way) comments not done well. A lot of people probably haven’t read them if they’re new–your traffic has been growing lately!

          1A. Ideally something that includes why we shouldn’t armchair diagnose people. I thought the Captain Awkward post recently was awesome–maybe ask if you could piggyback off that?

          2. Plan for which posts are likely to generate extra moderation needs, such as anything that is likely to cause a lot of speculation. and try to schedule them for days when you have time to do extra moderation, but not on the same days or you’re likely to get more trolls on those days.

        11. Courageous cat*

          I will say a tricky part of banning is the fact that people don’t get replies to their comments unless they specifically go back to that thread. Being able to receive comment replies (which I feel like most sites’ comment setions do – don’t know how it works on WordPress) would make that a lot easier.

          Basically, I would hate to get banned after having had warnings and not seen them because I simply didn’t go back!

        12. More moderation!*

          I know you said that you can’t hire moderators, but this seems like the only real solution to this, and would be something I wish we could head towards. The site is popular enough now to warrant it, and with the large volume of ads, it does feel (rightly or wrongly) like a money-maker, where an additional moderator should be part of the package.

      2. Annie Moose*

        “advice column fanfic”

        EXACTLY THIS! Especially if there’s anything remotely political or social justice-y that could be tied to the letter. You get all this speculation about the LW’s gender, and mental illnesses, and country of origin, and political or religious leanings, and childhood, and… okay, a little bit of “hey is it possible that X is a factor?” can be helpful, but when you’ve Decided all these characteristics about the OP and their situation that aren’t actually in the letter, and then you’re sixteen nested comments deep arguing over it with other people… it’s out of control.

        1. Snark*

          It’s funny – it’s a hard phenomenon to strictly define, but when I call it “advice column fanfic” everyone’s like “oh yessss I know just what you mean!”

          1. soon 2be former fed*

            Forum fanfic period is so annoying, it’s speculation on steroids and presented as truth. It happens on reddit and another forum I frequent.When I challenge fanfic writers, I get accused of having no imagination or not really being engaged. Ugh.

    10. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Incredibly unhelpful and extremely derailing. I understand filling in the blanks to give solid advice. But, lately, the leaping to extreme conclusions has made me just skim through the comments (or practically skip them entirely). I know it’s frustrating when LWs leave out important details, but most of the time the conjecture revolves around minutiae that is neither relevant nor has any impact on what the LW should do.

    12. karou*

      I’ve noticed a lot of speculation about where OPs are from based on their spelling and word choices, which I think is derailing and mostly doesn’t matter unless it’s a legal issue. I also worry that such speculation could “out” OPs trying to stay as anonymous as possible by identifying their location.

      1. Jaydee*

        Right? Legal issues like “oh, it sounds like you’re in the UK, so maybe FMLA doesn’t apply” or “generally employers aren’t required to X…unless you work in California” are one thing. Or when tied in to broader topics it can be useful, like the other day’s discussion about geographic differences and task-focused versus relationship-focused communication styles. But jerk bosses are jerk bosses and lazy coworkers are lazy coworkers whether you live in Sheboygan or San Diego or Saskatoon.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I disagree that it only matters if there is a legal issue being discussed. Cultural norms are very different depending on where you are and that context can make a big difference in what is appropriate advice.

    13. Jadelyn*

      I’m going to deviate from the general opinion here and say that, in moderation, I actually find it helpful. It really depends on the particulars of how it’s done, and there is such a thing as too far with it, but I feel like a lot of people are saying “How dare you offer an alternative perspective that might help the OP see things differently or take into account other potential factors?!?!”

      Like, the mug thing. Is giving it necessarily, definitely, 100% certainly going to provoke an age discrimination lawsuit? No. But giving the OP something to consider, that not only would that gift be in poor taste/less than professional, it could be used against them in the future? What’s wrong with that?

      1. Snark*

        I mean, you’re not wrong, and obviously there’s a lot of gray area here. But the likelihood of, in your example, an age discrimination lawsuit? It’s incredibly low. Like, vanishingly, negligibly tiny, even if it’s nonzero. Is raising the potential for a lawsuit likely to be actionable by OP? Probably not. I can get on board with “…and it could even be viewed as ageist” but not speculation about a lawsuit.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Eh, I’ve seen fired employees sue over the tiniest, stupidest things before, so I guess it’s not as much of a wild reach to me as it might be to others. People get reeeeally vindictive when they get fired, sometimes, and they’ll latch on to anything – not even trying to win so much as just trying to force the company into a settlement for the cash. So for me, from the stuff I’ve seen, it wouldn’t even surprise me to hear that a former employee is trying to sue for age discrimination based on being given a “dad mug” by a younger employee.

          And yesterday, in that thread, it really felt like people were dogpiling on, mainly to nitpick wording because of the way the comment had been phrased, more than contesting the actual fact that the gift would have been potentially ageist.

          But anyway, I agree that there’s a ton of grey area in this, which is what makes it so hard to quantify and moderate – it becomes an “I know it when I see it” sort of thing, only we all have different ideas of the threshold for it, and you end up with a mess.

          1. Snark*

            For what it’s worth, I agree that that wasn’t advice column fanfic. I wouldn’t be surprised to read an AAM article about it, even if I also wouldn’t expect to see it actually happen.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I tend to be a “what’s the worst thing that could happen” type of thinker in all areas of my life, so I don’t see a problem with the worst case scenario comments either. If people take those as fact, I can see where it becomes an issue though.

        1. Snark*

          It’s not that people take it as fact, but “what’s the worst thing that is likely to happen” is a lot more useful than “what is the worst thing that could possibly happen.” When we get really into unlikely, farfetched speculation, it sucks the air out of the thread.

          1. anon for this*

            Yes. To add an example from a different site I read, someone was asking about coming out in their workplace and the “worst thing” scenarios people commented with went from “you’ll find you have homophobic coworkers and you might find some relationships and situations more difficult than before” to “a homophobic coworker could murder you”.

            Which, the first suggestion is reasonable and likely, but the second is not likely and was not really useful to bring up in that particular conversation. There’s a maybe 1% chance of that happening.

      3. LJay*

        Yeah. I like it in small doses.

        To some extent, to get outside opinions and get things brought to our attention is probably the reason most people read the comments.

        Especially when the question is pretty much, “Is it just me or is this a really bad idea?”

        Especially when they come from people with actual expertise in the area. Though it would be nice if the comments were sourced with a link or something. A reference to a case where calling someone Dad led to an actual age discrimination charge is better than someone saying, “This is a thing that could happen,” especially in the internet where anyone can claim to be anything.

        I think it’s when it gets piled onto with every single person pointing out that hey, that’s like really ageist. Or arguing whether calling someone “Dad” could be age related discrimination when you can be a Dad when you’re 18 or even younger. And then these sub-tangents bury any other actual comments to the letter.

        Or when they invent speculation that is far outside the realm of possibility, like “What if Bob lost a child and the Dad thing makes him break down?” when Bob has been actively participating in the Dad thing for months and having a “world’s greatest dad” mug specific trigger is not really a thing.

    14. Lissa*

      I think it’s a problem when it takes over, and turns into a huge back and forth in many top level threads. I think *one* top-level thread that’s easily collapsed about “This could be abuse, food insecurity, PTSD” isn’t the worst. But when, for instance, somebody responds to every instance of someone suggesting a harsher response with basically “you monster, this could be a response to an abusive boss!” it is unhelpful.

      I REALLY liked Alison’s solution on a letter a few days ago where she had the commenters put all suggestions related to (in that case) health initatives in ONE comment thread, so people could collapse it and move on. I wonder if something like *that* could be a solution, though I’m not sure how it would work. Because Alison would have to know intuitively what would be likely to be speculated on and put it near the top of the thread. But yeah, it’s not the existence of these that’s a problem, it’s when they leak into the entire page, to my mind.

      But I’m picturing something like “a commenter thinks that Fergus’ change in behaviour could mean he’s in an abusive relationship – suggestions specifically for helping him if this is the case can go here.” or something more elegant.

      1. caledonia*

        I liked that solution about wellness/health comments as well and even though I default site wide collapse on comments it made the thread so much better to read.

        1. ChachkisGalore*

          Whoah – you just blew my mind! I didn’t realize that was an option. I’ve been skipping the comments more and more, but I’m going to figure out how to do that and maybe try again.

            1. I can't eat sandwiches*

              Yes, please. Especially for us that use Private mode on phones to eliminate the spammy popups.

            2. anon for this*

              Please! It’d make scrolling past 100+ comment threads I’m not interested in so much easier!

      2. KX*

        I think the problem is threaded comments, where you end up with all these nested replies to specific people instead of a list, from oldest at the top to newest at the bottom.

        Threaded comments get chatty and personal and hard to track. When each comment is a top level comment, you can still respond to other commentors, but you have to keep track a little more carefully. Nonthreaded comments don’t drift off topic as easily either, and they are much easier to revisit and find where you left off, and there is a lot less repetition.

        In the olden days it was all nonthreaded comments and chronological message boards. Threaded comments to multiple levels make a confusing mess.

        Is it possible to experiment with threaded comments on some posts and unthreaded comments on others? Or limit the levels to top thread + one sublevel?

    15. soupmonger*

      A thought on this: why do you have comments at all? Do you need them?

      Sounds as if you’re having issues with comment reporting systems, and you don’t want to get into heavy moderation. With both of these immediate options ruled out, why not simply run a business advice blog without comments?

      1. Observer*

        Allison has addressed this in the past. The reality is that the comments can be extremely useful – to the point where they’ve occasionally been the catalyst for new posts.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        On the whole, I think the comments are far more of a positive for the site than they are a negative. People often get really useful advice from them, and the conversations themselves are often interesting or entertaining.

        I also think there will always be problems with it, because it’s a comment section! It’s a very large group of strangers from all different walks of life and with different frames of references and styles of communicating. It’s going to be messy. I’m okay with that!

        But if there are relatively straightforward ways to make it a more pleasant/useful place to be, I definitely want to find those. I have no expertise in managing a comment section this large — it’s not what I started out to do, and I’m figuring it out as I go along. I’m also always balancing the question of how much time and resources it makes sense to invest in managing it. Given that only a small proportion of readers read the comments, it doesn’t make sense for it to be a major priority for me, relative to other projects … but if there are things I can do to improve it that don’t take an enormous amount of time/resources, I definitely want to.

        I hope that makes sense!

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            My ad network did an analysis where they studied which parts of the page most people spent time on, and very few went into the comments. That’s definitely changed the way I think about how to manage the site.

            2. hermit crab*

              That’s super interesting! (I find this whole thread fascinating, actually, and I love these sorts of meta-discussions about how the blog is run and how the community interacts. Thank you for engaging on them!)

        2. neverjaunty*

          You can’t improve a comments section with hands-off moderation. It’s just not how anything on the Internet works. In all candor and with great respect and affection, you’ve leaned very heavily on most of the commentariat being good-hearted (contentious, to be sure, but good-hearted), and that just doesn’t work in the long-term. The choices really are 1) spend time moderating, 2) don’t spend time moderating and have the comments section degenerate, or 3) close it down.

          There’s a reason most popular sites rely on volunteer moderators.

          2. Miso*

            Yeah, I really wish there were some extra moderators. And after that, a rule that forbids people who are not moderators from trying to moderate. Personally, I find the tendency of the commenter to moderate each other here extremely annoying and off-putting.

          3. Ask a Manager* Post author

            There’s no practical way to make moderators work. I’ve looked into it, and you can hire companies that provide moderators but they’re priced for major companies with much larger budgets than this site’s. And I’m not comfortable with using volunteer moderators on a site that earns revenue for me. I’d be open to it if there were a practical way to do it, but there doesn’t seem to be.

            1. Caledonia*

              Then that leaves you with option 1 – spend a bit more time moderating and cutting out the behaviours you don’t like. And I’m not talking about 24/7….
              There isn’t a magic solution.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Yep, that may be. Unfortunately that would mean cutting out paid work to make the time for it, which I’m probably not up for doing. I will keep thinking!

            2. neverjaunty*

              Completely understandable – but then you’re looking at option 3. Or option 4, I guess, which is “have a cesspit of a comments section”. But there’s no magic way to have a great commentariat while spending minimal tome moderating.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                I don’t know, I think it did work for many years but maybe the site has finally grown past the point where that can continue to be the case. That said, I continue to think the comments here are far better than most comment sections, even with all these frustrations, and would definitely not call them a cesspit. They are messy and they can be annoying but they’re on the whole more good than bad. My problem here isn’t that I think the comment section is a nightmare that must be dealt with, just that I’m thinking about ways to improve it.

                1. neverjaunty*

                  It’s not a cesspit yet, but it’s grown and it’s a lot more negative than it used to be. There are people in this thread who are telling you that they’ve found things off-putting or are reluctant to comment (and those are the ones sticking around to tell you). The site is already lightly moderated and doesn’t make it easy to flag problems.

                  “Other places are worse” is true but, uh, not very encouraging?

                  It’s your site and you of course get to decide what’s the best use of your time. I’m just observing that ‘hoping polite encouragement will solve things’ has never been a successful model for moderation on the Internet.

                2. caledonia*

                  Then I’m sorry Alison but you can’t really complain if you aren’t actually willing to change or improve anything.
                  And the comments *have* descended into chaos more than once in the last year and is a MAJOR reason why I rarely comment or engage anymore.

                3. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  That’s all fair enough! I have relatively low standards for a comment section because it is … a comment section. They’re by definition messy unless you bring a very heavy hand to them. And yes, some people will dislike them and move on and some people will enjoy them and stick around, and I think that’s the way of having a comment section. It’s not possible to make everyone happy. But I’d like it to be as good as possible relative to the amount of time and resources I can sensibly invest … which is limited.

                  Anyway, not complaining really, just musing about possible ways to manage things differently and it’s interesting to hear people’s input.

            3. a1*

              And I’m not comfortable with using volunteer moderators on a site that earns revenue for me.

              That’s an interesting take. I am a volunteer moderator on a couple of sites that make revenue (and even was one on a political discussion group). It helps the website “powers that be” because they only have to “worry” about their handful of moderators and not all the 100s or 1000s of comments/posts each day. And yes, it does take some time/work to manage the moderators or find the right fit, but it seems to have been a great success on these other sites. But again, it’s your site so do as you see fit.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Okay, will you talk to me about this? I know it’s a common model, but it seems ethically iffy to accept volunteer labor when I’m earning money from the broader site. Can you tell me a bit about your take on it?

                1. a1*

                  I do it because I really enjoy the sites. I’m visiting and reading there anyway so I figured why not help out? I will say, that all the ones I’ve done that with put minimal requirements on us. We’re not expected to be on all day, we have minimal rules to enforce (like here), we don’t edit posts for content so if even one sentence in a longer post should be moderated we hide the whole post, I could get into more minutea here, but that’d be too long. The biggest thing is we all know this is a volunteer gig, if we want out at any time we can leave. If the site owner/leader wants us out or changes their mind on moderators, we are out. That said, some of us have been modding for a couple years, some a couple months.

                  One of the sites has 20+ volunteer mods* and we have our own offsite chat groups (e.g. Skype, WhatsApp) to discuss actions on the site, if needed, and coordinate coverage. We also message the owner/leader when needed, but that’s not often after the initial set up anymore.

                  * I don’t think you’d need that many, that site has lots of subforums.

                3. There All Is Aching*

                  Also, volunteer moderating is a great way to give back to a content-packed site we get for free. I have a feeling the people who would volunteer for this are the folks who are heavily invested in the health/quality of AAM and would be happy to help out for all the years of not having to pay for this alone.

    16. caledonia*

      – I think that when Alison puts a reminder on threads at the top (because it’s blue) is an active reminder and tends to work well.
      – I thought that the thread with the health/wellness comments altogether also worked well.
      – I also think this blog has become an echo chamber and clique-y over the last while and has been a major reason for my own less regular comments.
      – the sheer volume of regular commenters who comment on every single post, ever single day and often repeat what Alison says is very tiresome.

      I also think that Alison is looking for a unicorn solution which solves all the problems (at least that’s how it comes across) and although doesn’t have the time for it on a regular basis some more frequent moderating would help.

      Making a standalone comment about how to flag comments on posts would help, since having a flagging system is not an option and I’ve only really seen Alison mention it in comment threads which not everyone reads or expands so will miss it.
      Stop having regular commenters moderate to extreme. It’s nice and helpful to point stuff out but sometimes it goes way beyond that and leaves a bad feeling.

      #justmythoughts

      1. OhBehave*

        I’m with you on those who repeat what Allison says – so tiresome! Often it’s the first comment to a post. I agree with your other points but this one has always stuck out to me.

    17. PrettyMuchALurker*

      I think I will be the voice of dissent in the thread and say that I’m not really sure that I understand all the angst on Allison’s part about people veering off topic or speculating too much in threads. When people have conversations with one another, they very naturally segue into other topics, and IMHO, that’s actually a sign of a very healthy commentariat. You’ve got people coming to your site and reading your advice, not just because they are interested in what you have to say about how to make their lives better professionally, but also because they are interested in talking with each other and have started to develop relationships with each other if they are long time commenters. People making jokes, etc., makes the comments fun to read. If comments are open, that implies a desire for people to interact with each other and to communicate with each other. Conversation generally organically deviates into other topics unless you’re in a structured environment like school or, well, work. :)

      I think if getting a bit off topic is seen as derailing or undesirable, then shutting down comments might be the way to go. After all, NPR did it.

      I may be an outlier, though, as see Allison mentioned that most people don’t read the comments. That’s pretty much what I’m here for, so I appreciate that some people may just be all about the advice and not care about the social aspect of the site at all.

    18. Drama Llama*

      Alison published two of my letters. Each time there were commenters who made incorrect assumptions or overly focused on some small irrelevant detail of my letter which I found annoying and unhelpful.

    19. The Other Dawn*

      I think *sometimes* it can be helpful, but for the most part I think it’s derailing. Some people read so much into the letter that isn’t there and when there’s absolutely no hint of anything being there. I find, too, that there is so much nit-picking of language lately. And sometimes when someone–LW or commenter–is asking a question an attitude of, “How can you ask such a stupid question? You should know better.” Or there’s a lot of assumptions made about the LW’s or commenter’s motive for asking. For these reasons I tend not to participate in the weekday posts as much as I used to. I still read the main posts, but I bypass many of the comments, whereas I used to read all the comments. I guess, to sum it up, I find it exhausting here sometimes.

    20. Anon for this one*

      I find it very unhelpful and kind of demoralizing. I asked a question about American workplace norms and it immediately descended into “Weird, that’s illegal in my country, have you thought about fixing that?”/”Ugh can’t you hoity-toity Europeans be surprised silently for once, you think you’re so much BETTER than us”. Never mind that I’m not even *in* Europe and neither of those are helpful or encouraging to non-American posters. It makes me hesitant to share my opinions and experiences. For a commentariat that prides itself on respecting everyone and championing minorities, it can get pretty hostile sometimes.

  5. Asking for a friend*

    What do you consider job hopping?

    Moving every year? Every two years? Every three? Moving laterally versus in an upward trajectory? Something else that’s specific to industry and cannot possibly be compared from one job-seeker to another?

    As a late-20s millennial, I’m having a terrible time figuring this out.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      This will vary a lot by industry. In some industries, you are expected to change jobs every one or two years. In others, you’re expected to change jobs no sooner than once every 3-5 years.

      Really, though, if you’re in one of the latter types, it isn’t one one-year stint that will make you look like a job hopper—it’s what appears to be a pattern.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      I think the trajectory matters–are you moving up? If so, I wouldn’t hold that against you looking at your resume. You gotta do what you gotta do to get paid. If you moved laterally every year, I’d side-eye, but I know life is complicated so it probably wouldn’t disqualify you, I’d probe in a phone screen.

    3. Roja*

      I’ve struggled figuring it out too. I work as a freelancer in the arts and “change jobs” with startling frequency (semester and shorter gigs being not uncommon, as well as holding multiple jobs at once). Over the last year I’ve been hired on the spot by two different people so I guess whatever I’m doing is working. But someone just looking at my job history would think I’m seriously unreliable, and that’s not at all the case.

      2. Persimmons*

        This is why it’s so important to be explicit in your resume about what is contract work and what is permanent FT work.

        I’ve seen resumes that were so muddled regarding which jobs were short-term and which were not. Rather than call the applicants and walk them through the timeline, the team just pitched the resumes in favor of applicants who made things clear.

        1. Roja*

          Yeah, now my resume talks about the freelance work I do rather than listing every place I work–that would take too much space. But if there’s some great resource you can point me to on referencing contract work, I’d like to read it. I’m all for continually tweaking it to make it better. But no one has pitched my resume as yet–generally they don’t even want to see it. I’ve only ever gotten jobs from word of mouth and networking and most of the time the resume, if they even want it, is merely a formality.

          1. Moonbeam Malone*

            I don’t know how most freelancers list it, but I put “Self-Employed, Freelance,” as a single section on my resume with bullet points regarding specific projects/clients. But I don’t use my resume to get freelance work either – it’s geared toward applying for full-time studio jobs. (I’d love to see other artists or other freelance and contract workers weigh in on this.)

    4. Not in US*

      It really depends on industry. Often every 1.5 years to 2 years early on is normal but the more senior you get often the longer the stay that is expected. When I worked in advertising it was every 1.5-2 years either because I chose to move or there was a layoff. I’m in academia now, I’ve been here 7 years and moved 3 times (4 jobs) with one lateral move. But its all the same institution so it’s not an issue and the lateral move was after several years in one position.

      I think when looking to make a lateral move, if its after a short time in a similar job, you have to be really clear about why it makes sense to do that. My lateral move gives me experience I wouldn’t otherwise have so it make sense and I had been in my last job for years. I would question a lateral move without a clear reason why if it was less than 2-3 years.

    5. Quill*

      I know I stuck in a pretty awful job for 2 years because I was afraid that if I never worked anywhere more than 6 months I’d never be hired…

      I haven’t had a full year contract job ever (awful job was salaried – should have been a warning sign that they were going to salary a 23 year old but I thought it was because they were a small company and didn’t want to pay someone to do payroll for an occasional hour or two of overtime…) but at this point, I’m 26 and in a completely different industry than I started out in and if anyone thinks that my resume reflects flakiness rather than just the reality of the job market, I question if they have the judgement to hire or manage anyone.

    6. fposte*

      Pretty much the last. Basically, it’s whether your history means that you’re likely to be a short-termer and whether it suggests that you’ve had enough long-term growth for what I’m looking for. Can’t really be measured in the abstract.

    7. Bea*

      Industry and position dependent!

      I trust nobody who holds jobs in accounting for only a short time for example. It takes a full year to cycle through everything and multiple years to insure you’re doing it all correctly.

      However customer service jobs, a year or two here and there makes sense given the nature of that position.

      Higher ranking, management positions. If you’re jumping around, it looks bad. I almost assume you’re pushed out in many places.

      Marketing or sales, I see like customer service. A couple years here and there makes sense because you need difference to spark creativity I’ve noticed.

    8. Shark Whisperer*

      I think its very very industry dependent. I am in my late 20s and have not had a job that lasted more than three years and I have only once had someone in my industry comment on it. Much more commonly I have been told that people at my level tend to only stay in a job for about two years. At the upper levels, the stays are a bit longer, but still typically only 3-5 years.

    9. Lisa B*

      There’s so much context, it’s hard to say. A lot of it matters if it was internal to the company or external. I have seen resumes that show a lot of jumps in the same company, but they’re clearly all higher in responsibilities/title, so I tend to think “wow, the higher ups really like this person! They must do good work!” A lot of jumps between different companies is a different story, and those are the ones I question suspiciously.

    10. Zennish*

      Like everyone says, very industry dependent. In libraries, two years tends to be an acceptable minimum. In academia, five year moves may mean you’re being denied tenure, so that will be a red flag for some. They aren’t super worried about lateral moves, especially if you have a reasonable “I wanted to take on new challenges/learn new skills” explanation.

      And, as also mentioned, the more it becomes a pattern, the more it’s likely to be seen as, well, a pattern.

  6. Bright red sparkly shoes*

    Oh my god I have been dying to share this. I’m in a group on FB for my profession and this is one of the posts that was shared regarding hiring. WTAF?

    ————————————————–

    Specifically: the trick question I was taught is to ask them, as part of the normal interview questions: “What character in ‘The Wizard of Oz’ do you most identify with?” (Note: NOT their “favorite” character, as most will pick Toto, believe it or not!) You’ll likely get a nervous chuckle and a look of disbelief, but just assure them “There is no ‘wrong’ answer … just go with it.”
    Besides giving you an idea how they might handle a situation they were not expecting, WHOM they choose will be a glimpse into how they perceive themselves. For example, Dorothy is a good person who feels a bit disoriented and lost, and is doing the best she can. The Good Witch (of the East) is a problem solver and always does the right thing. The Wicked Witch (of the West) does things for shock value and doesn’t like following rules. If they choose the Cowardly Lion, Tinman or Scarecrow, they might feel they are deficient in the same area that the character was, and asked the Wizard for help. And … if they choose The Wizard himself … uh, oh, can you say EGO? You don’t have to ask them WHY, as the likely response will be “I have no idea, it is the first thing I thought of.” And, of course, it is far from scientific. But it does make the interview “change gears” a bit, and they might open up to you a lot more than they ordinarily would be likely to do.

    ————————————————–

          2. Murphy*

            Ha!

            “Dorothy, because she’s not sure what kind of crazy world she walked into and she just wants to go home.”

        2. General Ginger*

          Agreed. “Sorry, don’t know anything about the Wizard of Oz, but I’m definitely most like a tree and leaving now”.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      Oh my god, no.

      I’d say this is a question from people who don’t understand how to interview properly.

      1. Student*

        This kind of thing can be useful… as an icebreaker, to get the interviewed person over nerves and silliness and such. This particular question is over the top even for that, but you get the concept. It gets them talking about something common and low-stakes, out of their own heads. I stick with more basic stuff rather than silly entertainment-philosophy, personally – like asking about hobbies or travel or whatnot.

        It’s not a good test of how they’ll do in the job, and it doesn’t give you deep, secret insight into their personality or their work ethic.

        1. jay*

          I may be in the minority but I really like these questions. For one, it is something people are generally unprepared for, so gives you an insight into how they think on their feet.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      WOW, is that a silly question.

      I’d like to think that I’d have the presence of mind to give a smartass answer if asked this, but I bet I wouldn’t actually.

    5. Amber Rose*

      That is reading way too deeply into how people enjoy entertainment. There is no way this is giving anyone valuable insight into anything.

    6. Sammytwo*

      We have a standard list of questions we can choose from. One of them is, when you pick up the newspaper, which do you do first, the Sudoku puzzle or the crossword? Um, no.

      1. Quill*

        Sudoku puzzle. Crosswords are often heavily weighed down by questions about trivia that’s older than me. (Example: “Pretty Woman” actress. Is it Audrey Hepburn? Marilyn Monroe? I don’t know, the movie came out before I was born.)

        1. ThatGirl*

          I’m sorry, I have to laugh at this because… Pretty Woman isn’t *that* old, Julia Roberts is still acting, and Audrey Hepburn and Marilyn Monroe made movies in the 50s and 60s, not the 90s. Like, not even in the same era.

          I understand not everyone has the same cultural references, and your larger point is just fine, but pulling out that particular example struck me as odd and funny :)

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            See, I liked that example because I used to start with Sodoku for the exact same reason, and I saw Pretty Woman in theaters when it came out.

            … I also have limited knowledge of the rivers of Europe. Much prefer the “synonym for” types of questions.

          2. Quill*

            This was a little more on the nose, because it’s more about the fact that I very seldom retain any knowledge about actors or movies than my actual age.

            I have legitimately seen a cowboy movie, and asked “is that guy John Wayne?” when it was, in fact, a movie without John Wayne in it.

            I’m all for trivia but I legitimately don’t know how people did crosswords before the internet.

            1. RegularPosterAnonForThis*

              Before the Internet (and the proliferation of cable and on-demand shows), there weren’t so many niche markets in entertainment. And before the vast libraries of historical content were available for streaming, you saw what was on, because that was all that was on.

              The general public shared more media/cultural experiences in common.

        2. Matilda Jefferies*

          Heck, crosswords are weighed down by questions about trivia that’s older than me as well – and I saw Pretty Woman in the theatre when it first came out! I don’t know who is writing crossword puzzles these days, but I assume they’ve been doing it for a really long time.

          1. hermit crab*

            Also: baseball. So much baseball. Nearly everything I know about the sport is from crosswords.

      3. LCL*

        The crossword, obviously. Sudoku is a new gimmick. And I, uh, never figured out how to do it. Numbers should stay numbers and letters should stay letters, as God intended.

      5. Jadelyn*

        …for an increasing number of candidates, the answer is going to be “Who actually picks up a physical newspaper these days?”

        Also, I’m really curious. What information is this supposed to give you that will tell you whether the person is going to be good at the job? They’re both puzzles. It’s just about which *type* of puzzle they prefer, words or numbers, and preferring one doesn’t mean they’re deficient with the other, so…I just don’t see this netting any useful information, ever.

        1. Observer*

          It’s not even true that it shows a preference for words vs numbers. In many cases, I’m not going to touch the crossword because I know it’s going to be full of tons of references I don’t know. Why would I do that instead of a sudoku that I have a chance at completing?

      7. The New Wanderer*

        1 Word unscramble
        2 Sudoku
        3 Crossword
        4 NYT Crossword

        Word unscramble and sudoku are on the edge of the paper I like to fold down to do the crosswords, that’s why I do them first, and I save the NYT Crossword for last because it’s the usually hardest.

        As for the Wizard of Oz question, yeah, no one is going to parse “who do you identify with” differently than “who’s your favorite character” because you usually have a favorite because you identify with them. Please just ask me what kind of tree I’d be, because “Deciduous, which is why I’m leaving.”

    7. Tara S.*

      This is like asking someone their astrological sign in an interview and then giving weight to their answer. I get finding a question personally interesting, but basing professional hiring decisions on something like that it terrible.

    8. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I was once asked, in a group, who my favorite Disney character was. Lots of people said Ariel or Belle or Cinderella or Dumbo or whatever. I said Mickey Mouse because he’s steadfast yet he changes with the times, or something like that. The interviewers liked that answer. I got the job.

      The interview was for the Walt Disney World College Program. In that context? Interesting question. In any other? Don’t ask this.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Mickey is the best. Why has he been popular for so long and among so many people? BECAUSE HE IS THE GOAT.

          Not like the goats from your other post, though. Mickey stays away from weed.

      2. General Ginger*

        Team player, willing to work for very little pay, comfortable wearing a uniform all the time… this is probably an answer that’ll get you hired, but do you really want that job?

      3. Ender*

        I’d say the munchkins coz I played one on my school play. I also played a jitterbug a few years later.

        1. Easily Amused*

          Oh the birds and the bees and the bats in the trees can’t do what the jitterbug does… LOL! Me too!

      4. designbot*

        They’re just trying to go about their day, and do their best to get the crazy girl out of their neighborhood when she drops in unexpectedly. Helpful, efficient, diplomatic… you’ll do great!

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        The Wicked Witch of the East.

        I think I’ll go with the Witch of the South, who is mysteriously unheard from. I could tell the interviewer what I do, but then I’d have to kill them…

        2. Qwerty*

          The Good Witch of the South is Glinda. The movie merged her with the unnamed Good Witch of the North, but her appearance and color scheme still matches the South. Glinda plays a role in most of the entire series, but I think the Good Witch of the North only has the one short scene.

    11. Nervous Accountant*

      Shockingly many were agreeing with th post and some were kind of snarkky to me when I said WTAF.

    12. Totally Minnie*

      I’d be tempted to lie and say I’d never seen the movie and see how the interviewer reacts.

      Honestly, though, if someone asked me this question in an interview I would be seriously reconsidering my desire to work for that organization. There are so many better ways to find out what a person is like and how they are likely to function as an employee. Anything about what movie character I identify with or what kitchen utensil I think I am or any of those “out of the box” questions are going to make me have concerns about this workplace.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I did ask. The OP said that he lets it go if they’re under 40. But over the age of 40 and

        “I’d wonder a bit about what else is “off” about them. But, of course, it would not automatically mean a rejection.”

        Seems like majority of posters agreed with this question or other tactics (handwritten cover letter etc).

        They also mentioned that this works for new grads/new to the field. So. Smh

        1. Quill*

          That almost makes it a potential way of enabling discrimination – if you have never seen the Wizard of oz, it could be because you grew up outside of the U.S., because English is your second language, because you have a neurological condition that can be triggered by watching films, because you have a phobia of monkeys…

          Don’t base hiring on people’s pop culture awareness!

      2. Xarcady*

        I’m in my 50s and have never seen the movie all the way through. It was in the theaters long before I was born. As a small child, I would try to watch it when it came on TV, but either my parents made me go to bed in the middle of it, or my brothers would change the channel. So I think I’ve seen most of it, but in little bits here and there, and never all the way through in one sitting. I could probably answer the interview question, but that’s because I read all the books when I was a kid.

        1. Ender*

          I’m in my 30s and same. Seen bits, been in school plays about it, but never actually watched it all through. Read all the books too. And if you’ve actually read the books you’d know identifying with the wizard isn’t a sign of big ego at all!

      3. General Ginger*

        I have actually only seen it once, and only with Dark Side of the Moon playing. I’ve never watched it other than that. I’d probably have to say “Roger Waters”.

    13. MuseumChick*

      Wow. Basing hiring on a kind of personality quiz that was popular in the early 2000s is not a great way to hire people.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Interestingly, my last interview started with (after the usual pleasantries), “What are your hobbies outside of work?”

        He then went on to explain that learning about people’s hobbies gave him insight into what kind of person they were.

        I was a little taken aback (I’m used to STAR type questions), but went with, “Well, if you’d asked five years ago, I would have given you all the sports – snowboarding, dirtbiking, rock climbing, hiking, rollerblading. But since a snowboarding accident, I now spend all my my time reading and playing guitar.”

        Which evolved into a discussion of the book that I’m reading, which is “Who’s Afraid of Schroedinger’s Cat?” – a book that deals with a lot of quantum, theoretical, practical physics and other mind-bendy stuff for laymen, which he thought was amazing (apparently). Then it ALSO turned out that he played guitar as well – and my specific flavor, which is nylon-string classical. Then he listed some of his favorite players/duos and one was a concert that the husband and I had gone to, and so we talked about that.

        So it was more of a conversation than an actual WHAT’S YER FAVORITE COLOR (followed by, “The book says if you say ‘purple’, then you’re XYZ and thank you, goodbye”) but I will admit to a tiny frisson of apprehension when the very first question was something entirely not work-related.

        (side note: I really really like this job, really really like this boss, and really really hope they hire me, but that’s a different story.)

    14. Persimmons*

      My first instinct is to say “that guy who hanged himself on set” but that’s not on the list.

      1. SparklingStars*

        I’m pretty sure they debunked this as being an urban legend – but I do like how your mind works.

      2. Marthooh*

        I would say, “I identify with Aunty Em, of course!” And smile.

        And they would say, “Oh, look at that sweet little old lady… why, she wouldn’t hurt a fly!”

        And I would smile even more.

    15. Birdbrain*

      Are they hiring someone who writes those Buzzfeed quizzes? “Which Wizard of Oz character are you REALLY”?

      Yikes.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        The rare context in which this actually makes sense as an interview question. They could move onto “What sort of tree are you?” and “What Golden Age silent film star are you?”

        1. Anonymosity*

          “Choose your avocado toast and find out who your Avengers soulmate is!” I literally took a quiz almost exactly like this the other day. So fun when you’re just farking around online, but my eyebrows would shoot up into my hair to get any of this in an interview.

          Mine is Captain America, btw. ;)

          1. Birdbrain*

            I’m suspicious of that test’s validity, because Captain America is clearly *my* soulmate. ;)

    16. I'm A Little Teapot*

      It’s been probably 20 years since I’ve seen that movie. It terrified me. And that person clearly hasn’t seen the followup musical, Wicked.

      Aside from that, I may actually ask how it’s relevant? Which would be appropriate – I’m an auditor. I’m supposed to be skeptical.

    17. It's me*

      I have actually always thought of myself as one of the flying monkeys thank you so much for asking

    18. Falling Diphthong*

      When we were about to see Wicked we discovered that my son had never seen or read The Wizard of Oz, and so my spouse and I gave him a plot summary over dinner. Fortuitously, as the play assumes that you are familiar with the outlines of the other story to give context to events.

      So not only is that breakdown of personalities very specific to the questioner and how they view the characters, the answerer might not even be referencing the same version of the story that the questioner has in their head.

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        Yeah, the only answer I’d be tempted to give would be to break into “As Long As You’re Mine” starring me as both Elpahba and Fiyero.

        Thinking about that though, I’d love an interview where they asked my which Hamilton character I identified with. Just so I could jump up and yell AARON BURR SIR at the top of mu lungs.

        1. Arielle*

          I would be sorely tempted to shout, “Hercules Mulligan I need no introduction when you knock me down I get the f*ck back up again!”

          Although the real answer is more along the lines of, “He looked at me like I was stupid, I’m not stupid.”

          1. General Ginger*

            “Immigrants. We get the job done.” If I were a bumper sticker kind of guy, I’d get one of those.

    19. Quill*

      All of these are even worse than most “personality test” questions and actually tell you nothing… especially in an interview, where people are going to be telling you whatever they think is a correct answer, and balancing not wanting to seem like they’re bragging or minimizing their flaws with leaving a good impression.

      Sometimes people just identify with the wicked witch of the west because they like pretty shoes.

      (Also, minor thing: Glinda is the good witch of the South, the wicked witch of the east is currently a house-squished waffle. I would definitely sink my chances by pointing this out to the interviewer.)

    20. Mombi's Severed Head*

      Can I choose Mombi from Ozma of Oz? She’s the evil queen who magicks pretty women’s heads so she can put them one in place of her own, depending on the look she’s going for that day. It means I’m good at trying to relate to different people and see from their perspective, and also a little bit evil.

      2. MamaCat*

        Hate to be pedantic, but they combined a couple of characters for Mombi in Return to Oz. Princess Languidere owned all the heads in Ozma of Oz, and Mombi was the mean old witch in Marvelous Land of Oz who transformed Ozma into a boy. But wouldn’t that be cool to bust out “Princesses Languidere” to that question to see how they’d react? She’s super adaptable. :D

    21. TonyTonyChopper*

      I am rolling my eyes so hard I’m surprised they are still attached to me. Like anyone with half a brain doesn’t know what answer the interviewer is looking for. No one is going to say “Oh, the Cowardly Lion is my spirit animal!” even if that might be the case

      My sarcastic response – I would tell the interviewer that the Good Witch wasn’t the Witch of the East, and then go into detail about how it was one of my favorite books as a kid and start asking questions about the differences between the book and the movie, since, obviously, the interviewer is also a huge fan.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        I would 100% correct them on that as well – not because I’ve read the books, but because I’m both a pedant and a smartass, and because I’m also really bad at hiding what I’m thinking. If it were a real interview question I could probably suppress the urge, but for something like this – you can bet the first thing out of my mouth would be “The Wicked Witch of the East wasn’t the good witch, she was the one squashed by the house. Glinda, the good witch, was from the South.”

    22. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      Not that I’m agreeing with the question, but my instinct is to go with the Glinda or the Wizard, if we’re sticking to the film, because they’re the ones who pointed out, “Look, you have the resources to fix your perceived problem all along.” And as I type this, this film clicks into place as the ultimate Depression-era propaganda. “You’re not starving! You’re just looking at it wrong! Wallpaper is delicious and nutritious!”

    23. Very tired*

      This makes me want to respond with information about the book, how it’s a political commentary, and that it’s interesting that children’s literature seems to gather a lot of that subgroup, just like the Mother Goose stories. I wonder what that says about me.

    24. LuJessMin*

      Heh, I was in some sort of leadership training course, and the leader had us introduce ourselves and our favorite movie. Most folks chose “Gone With The Wind” or “Casablanca”. I chose “Fargo”. Coworker sitting next to me shook her head and said, “I always knew you were different.”

    25. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I think questions like that are only useful when the reason why is more important than the actual character they chose and it’s not already considered a given like in your example. Not everyone is going to interpret characters the same way. Is the Good Witch really that good…is the Tinman really “deficient”?

      I choose Wizard because I identify with a person who likes to help others, as if by magic, without getting any personal credit. That’s why I use the quote from the movie, “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.” It’s a bit strange to think that Wizard = EGO.

    26. Observer*

      SOOOOO much wrong with this. It’s bad enough on its own, but not even asking “why” makes it 10x worse. The reality is that people are going to react very differently to different characters. Like the Wizard – you could say “ego” but someone else could say “someone who got in over his head and found a way to make it work for him”.

      Never mind the people who actually don’t know anything about the Wizard of Oz, or who’ve read the book rather than having seen the movie.

      And none of the even touches the issue of these “trick” questions.

    28. Anonymosity*

      The Wizard would be a good example of someone with imposter syndrome.

      I have answers all ready for this kind of crap question but no one has asked.

    30. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Well, I’d blow that interview both because I have never actually seen the whole movie (and the books were banned from my home by my parents due to the author’s terrible, genocidal racism) and I would think that was a ridiculous question.

    31. Afiendishthingy*

      OMG i got asked this question at an interview recently!!! I said scarecrow and I did not get the job. If I could use emoji I would be using the crylaugh one here. I’ve moved on!

      And Glinda the Good was the witch of the NORTH not the east. The witch of the east was the one the house fell on. (Incidentally my BIL suggested I should have said I was the witch who got crushed by the house. Which would have been funny and at least as effective.)

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        And when they asked me I was totally thinking “Alison would never ask me this stupid question”

    33. Becky*

      I want to know how they would recommend interpreting if someone named a character from the book who doesn’t appear int he movie…which would probably stump the interviewer.

      Or (me being 4’11”) the munchkins, because I’m so short. :P

  7. hermit crab*

    My coworker brought in his three-year-old son for a brief visit today. Said three-year-old just introduced himself to someone and announced, “I’m a very distracted guy.” You and me both, kid. You and me both.

    Happy Friday, everyone!

    3. ChaufferMeChaufferYou*

      Adorable. There was a little boy walking around the botanical gardens the other day announcing, “I’m a valuable cowboy!”
      Yes you are, little partner.

    4. Jack Be Nimble*

      We’re in the midst of Bring Your Kid To Work day and a child very seriously informed me that he works here and his job is typing on computer.

    1. What's with today, today?*

      I haven’t read the article yet (I will), but I feel the need to share that our local vet is a Scientologist and has Scientology videos playing in the lobby of the vet clinic. Small town Texas too, not California or something. It just always makes me giggle.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Be prepared to be horrified. I read it last night with ever increasing jaw-dropping disbelief.

        1. What's with today, today?*

          No idea. He didn’t try to recruit us, but we eventually switched vets b/c he was price gouging. Flu shots for dogs in Texas? Nope. (We contacted a vet friend at Texas A&M vet center who confirmed that while flu can be a problem for dogs in the north, it’s not here. The friend said that is “classic price gouging.”)

          1. Lyman for President*

            This is actually how I confirmed my vet was good! The daycare I took my dogs to occasionally was really pushing canine flu vaccines, and so I called my vet to ask about them and they said “they are a thing, but we don’t do them here because they are mostly a waste of money for clients”.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      “Onetaste” in the context of this thread makes me think of the bug in the Wizard of Oz later books, who made a pill that you could take in place of eating a meal and was offended that this never caught on.

      “Orgasmic meditation” induced an eyeroll, and then when “company” was appended I dislocated something.

    3. Rat in the Sugar*

      Whoa, this has just about every hallmark of a cult that I know. We’re hitting so many points here:

      -“Lovebombing” at initial encounters
      -Separation from friends and family
      -Destroying your sense of money (money isn’t important to you but funnily enough the group sure needs a whole lot of it…)
      -Forced revealing of personal weaknesses
      -Ritualized sex
      -Communal living with other group members
      -Proclaiming the group as the only true source of spiritual fulfillment

      …ugh, what part of this is NOT a cult?? They’ve got the predatory formula down pat.

        1. Rat in the Sugar*

          EVEN BETTER. All they have to do is start selling timeshares and they’ll have hit some kind of predatory trifecta.

          1. Detective Amy Santiago*

            Honestly, I was shocked this hasn’t been discussed more in the media because of how bananacrackers inappropriate it is.

    5. OhGee*

      This article was too much, hoo boy. Without getting too TMI, I feel really bad for people who get sucked in to sexuality-heavy cults. It’s so easy to grow up sexually repressed/without healthy models for sexuality in the US, and I get the feeling people get pulled in to this stuff because it’s the first time anybody made them feel like sex was a positive thing.

    6. Jadelyn*

      I’m 3 paragraphs in and my eyes are bugging out of my head.

      (And as a Bay Area native, I’m internally screaming at them “THIS IS WHY THE REST OF THE COUNTRY THINKS WE’RE ALL WHACKJOBS! YOU ARE WHY WE CAN’T HAVE NICE THINGS!”)

    7. TechServLib*

      My city is listed in the article as one that they’re trying to expand to in the next two years. NOPE NOPE NOPITY NOPE.

    8. LGC*

      I mean, I WAS planning on being productive the rest of the day, but I guess that’s not going to happen…

      (I’m about to dive head first into this article.)

    9. Rachel B.*

      Finally catching up to this article, thanks, Det. Santiago. Third paragraph in and I am horrified. Why would anyone EVER think this was a reasonable idea, and at work, no less??!!!?

  9. JokeyJules*

    Anyone have any good “I would NEVER hire this person” stories?

    Had a man call this week demanding to speak to the hiring manager so she can let him know he has been hired. He had only completed a phone screening for a highly technical position. Then he informs me that he will be working out of my office so I should try to make a good impression for him.
    LOL.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I once started a phone interview with a candidate who I quickly discovered was conducted the interview on the toilet. I nearly threw up in my mouth when I heard his bowel movements reaching their destination. He was quickly put on the no-no list.

        1. It's me*

          I still don’t think this would ever be ok? I would try and reschedule before taking a phone interview on the loo

          1. MuseumChick*

            I have a couple of friends with the condition. Sometimes, it’s to late/there are no other options. They certainly don’t want to talk to someone while sitting on a toilet but they also don’t want to ruin their pants.

            1. Holly*

              Urm, it’s okay to pause the interview and ask if you can call them back if it’s an emergency. You should not be on the toilet while on a phone interview, IBS or not.

            2. The New Wanderer*

              I have hung up on someone when this happened to me. Blame it on a lost cell connection. DON’T subject someone to unnecessary unpleasant noises.

            3. Courageous cat*

              This is honestly absurd. There is no situation in which the other person would prefer to listen to someone using the bathroom rather than just be called back at a later time.

              Like, if someone was having a conversation with their boss in person and had an attack, they’d say “I’ll be right back” and go into the stall alone instead of pulling their boss in there to finish the conversation during, right?

        2. Totally Minnie*

          If you have to be in the bathroom during your phone interview, check to see if your phone has a mute option. That way, they only hear you when you want them to and they won’t have to hear the ambient bathroom echoing the whole time.

        3. Ann Furthermore*

          Yes, but you have a Mute button, or the option to say, “I’m so sorry, I need to step away for a moment.” I have stomach issues sometimes and I would never, ever do that.

          1. Washi*

            Or just hang up in the middle of your sentence and pretend you got disconnected. It’s true that there aren’t a lot of good options in this scenario, but audibly pooping in a phone interview is not option #1 (or #2 haha)

        4. The Person from the Resume*

          It seems to me that a lot of the commentary lately has involved worst-case scenarios or conjecture about details not in the OP’s letter. Do you find this type of discussion helpful or do you think it derails the thread?

          Not helpful. Really, say: “I’m sorry I have to step away from the phone for a second.”

        5. What's with today, today?*

          Wrong! I have severe to dibilitating Crohn’s Disease. This would never be okay.

        6. Courageous cat*

          I’m honestly kind of speechless at this comment.

          Yes, you absolutely have a choice not to be shitting during an interview. There is never a situation in which that will be acceptable.

      2. Yorick*

        I have really bad nervous belly. I always start needing to go when I’m about to have a phone interview. It gets worse because they always end up calling a little late and it gets worse and worse. I can usually wait until it’s over, but it’s agony, and at least once (first call for current job) I did have to answer the phone on the toilet.

        It feels awful, physically and emotionally. I always hope they don’t notice, and if they did I hope they’d be sympathetic.

        1. BRR*

          I have a nervous belly as well. I take Imodium before interviews (I’m not sure if this is brilliant, way too extreme, or a little of both).

      3. Foreign Octopus*

        I just bounced this over to my mum who has pretty awful IBS and asked her what she would do. She replied that she would never, under any circumstances, answer the phone whilst on the toilet or continue her conversation whilst going to the toilet.

        I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not have to talk to people whilst they’re on the toilet no matter what the circumstances.

        It’s similar to letters we’ve had here in the past about people trying to continue work conversations in the bathroom. It’s just not the environment for it.

        1. Rat in the Sugar*

          Yeah, I have IBS and have actually had a few pants-ruining accidents (not to be TMI, just illustrating that I understand how urgent things can be sometimes) and there’s NO WAY I would answer the phone on the toilet. I mean, if I had a stomach bug and had to puke or if the cat was trying to strangle herself on the blinds or someone started hammering urgently on my front door or whatever the hell else might suddenly happen, I’d just quickly say something like “There’sanemergencyberightback!!” and throw the phone down. Emergencies happen and a reasonable company won’t hold it against you.

        2. Lissa*

          Yeah and I mean….I don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation for someone conducting a phone interview hearing “noises” to be OK with it because of potential medical issues.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      I was interviewing for a client services role at a nonprofit. A candidate was 15 minutes late and kept talking about how he wanted to get rich and own a hospital.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      The art director who smelled so bad that my eyes were watering as soon as I walked into the room. I couldn’t wrap up that half hour fast enough.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      My boss at a staffing agency was looking to hire another internal office person. She mentioned that she liked the resume of someone who used to work for the same LargeCorp I used to work for (that had multiple divisions/locations) and knew it was unlikely I would know this person.

      I knew them. And I also knew that there was no way they would be a good fit for the position.

      I also happened to be friends on FB with this person. Who proceeded to message me and ask me for advice about preparing for the interview because they knew I worked there. And when I said that based on our experience working together that I didn’t think they were a good fit for the internal position, but we would schedule them for an interview for possible placements, they then argued with me for more than an hour about why I was wrong.

      Needless to say, that file was marked as “Do Not Hire” in the database and I blocked them on Facebook.

      1. Consulting Gal*

        I dont think you should have told him he wasn’t a good fit via FB. I wouldve either ignored him or gave a generic answer.

    6. Emmie*

      My network asks me for referrals to my WFH job. When I ask them what interests them about my company or the job they’re looking at, people tell me it’s because they want to WFH.

      2. CynicallySweet*

        This is just lazy. Even if that’s their primary motivation, do a google search at least

      3. Emmie*

        Right? Tell me why you’d be good at a particular open position. Then we can talk about whether you have the discipline to exceed goals while working in your home.

    7. PB*

      I received a cover letter recently from someone who assured me he was “the best possible candidate” as he “far exceeded all of the requirements.” And he did not. Rejected without a phone interview.

    8. An anonymous librarian*

      I’ve been in public libraries for over 15 years. I had a phone interview last week in which the candidate mansplained the entire concept of library programs to me while repeating the same stories over and over and insisting that he was the only person in the country who could possibly fulfill all the job requirements from our posting, and ended the call by saying he was excited to move across the country and start working for me soon.

      Reader, I did not hire him.

      1. JokersandRogues*

        How shocking that you didn’t hire this person….not.
        I mean, really, why wouldn’t you want to hire someone who is already being a condescending twit before they even get to the job? /s/

    9. Holder of the visa sponsorship*

      I called a potential hire demand that we immediately file for their green card and argue with me that their ‘friend’ had immediate sponsorship from the company. 1. This was during an initial conversation (no offer in hand) so I could figure out if there were any red flags that would create issues with green card filing down the road. 2. I managed all of the visa sponsorship for the company. There was no ‘friend’ that was given immediate green card sponsorship because it’s against company policy. 3. This wasn’t even for a particularly hard position to fill. All of the nope. The hiring manager went in another direction.

    10. anon for this*

      A fangirl who REALLY wanted to meet this one famous author I used to work with. The cover letter mentioned how she was such a big fan and write fanfic and went to cons, and I could just envision the nightmare of her getting this author’s contact info and never setting professional boundaries. I’ve seen others similar to that for other authors or celebs (they’re usually passed from HR as a “look at the rejection of the week!” trend, nothing that makes it to a phone screening).

      I’ve gotten really good at reading between the lines of people who want editorial jobs because they “just want to read books all day” or because they think the job is a backdoor into getting their novel published. If your resume talks a lot about your favorite books and your MFA program, you’re going in the rejected pile.

      1. The Person from the Resume*

        I want to read books all day. I want to choose the ones to read, though, so I am pretty sure an editorial job is not for me.

        I have a friend who works in publishing and in addition to working like 60-80 hours a week, he hasn’t read a book for pleasure in a long time.

        1. anon for this*

          I cannot tell you the number of times I’ve had to tell people that reading books is so rarely part of publishing and editorial. Aside from a book reviewer, I cannot think of a single job in the industry where you read books all day.

          I can’t even bring myself to read for pleasure anymore. Knowing what goes into each book and the business end has sort of killed most of my love of reading. I have friends in TV and movies who feel the same way about their industry. A friend works on some very popular, high profile TV series and says she hasn’t watched a show for pleasure in ages.

          1. Book Reviewer*

            And speaking as a book reviewer, I’ll say you don’t always get to choose what you want to read, either (although I’ve been fortunate about that in a general sense, certainly). I’d hesitate to call it a job, though: There are very few people who can actually make a living on it. I won’t review for free, but I’m getting pocket money from it. There are even some book review editors who must supplement their income.

            I just got an email from the prestigious book reviewing organization that I belong to; it concerned a spreadsheet of publication contacts for book review pitches. The email noted excitedly that most of those publications even pay!

            1. anon for this*

              Oh, for sure. We pay for reviews, but it’s definitely not enough per book to make a living on it. Usually the deal is a small check and a copy of the book in exchange for the review. Official book reviewing is harder than people think. It’s not quite the same as writing a review on amazon.

              I do know two reviewers who have made a steady job out of it without needing to supplement their income, though. But they’re the exception to the rule, and their situations are unique to begin with.

              1. Marion Ravenwood*

                That’s been my experience in the music industry; often your ‘pay’ is the ticket to the gig (for live shows) or a preview copy of the album, plus a small payment. For the people in my scene, which granted is quite small, it’s definitely not enough to live on alone – most people I know do it either alongside another job or have financial support from family members which allows them to do it full-time. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy it and I know I’m really lucky to do it, but it’s definitely not as glamorous or easy as people think it is.

                1. anon for this*

                  Yes, and sometimes the turnaround is short. So, for book reviews, it’s not a leisurely read at your own pace deal, but we need this in 48 hours, so read, review, write asap!

                  A lot of book reviewing is skimming, too, tbh. If we need a review in 24 hours, I know reviewers are skimming instead of reading for every tiny detail.

          2. No Bees on Typhon*

            Heh, my husband works in the movie and TV industry and we always use that as justification for our Netflix and expensive cable package habits. We’re “supporting his industry”.

      2. Marion Ravenwood*

        In a similar vein, I’ve known music journalists who handed over their demo CD to a major artist. In a press conference. Nonononononono. (And I know music is subjective and all, but the demo was… not good.)

    11. Anon for now*

      We gave someone a phone interview once. The whole interview was really uncomfortable, and only got worse when we got to the “Do you have any questions for us?” portion. One of his questions was, in essence, “What’s the point of even having this position?” His contention seemed to be that middle management is useless and he didn’t think we needed this position. He also believed that managing just involved “telling people what to do and they’ll do it.” And he had management experience.

      1. A tester, not a developer*

        I once had someone describe my job as ‘going to meetings and telling people what to do’.

        He was shocked that he wasn’t selected to be the infill for me while I was on maternity leave. Even though he’d only been with the company for about 4 months…

    12. Doloris Van Cartier*

      I was once in an interview where someone asked their best and worst trait (ugh, I know!) but the answer was so odd, I’m so glad they did ask it. Their worst trait was that they had received comments in their previous reviews that they wore inappropriate clothing and she went onto to say it was because she liked wearing shorter skirts and dresses because she thought women shouldn’t wear pants and she liked showing off her legs. Of course, there are two women in the room, myself included, wearing pants, so that was interesting. She also had all kinds of boundary issues which for the job she was applying for was a huge red flag so she didn’t end up getting the position.

      1. SarahKay*

        Soooo I’m in the UK, where pants to us = panties to you. When you said “she thought women shouldn’t wear pants and she liked showing off her…” my mind jumped somewhere rather less appropriate than ‘legs’ and I started thinking ‘OMG, no, please, no!!!!’. Very relieved when the sentence ended in “legs” and I remembered the pants/panties translation.

        1. Doloris Van Cartier*

          I just read it with that in mind and laughed so hard I almost spilled my water. That would have really made the answer even more uncomfortable than it was.

        3. I Just Stole $0.12 From My Employee With This Comment*

          I worked at a place where the dress code specifically mentioned requiring underwear, and the reason was a previous employee who liked miniskirts and hated underwear.

          1. LPUK*

            I worked with a woman who made a point of telling me she went commando when wearing pants in the office… which she did quite regularly. She also told me she mowed the back lawn naked. I was young and didn’t see this as the poor boundaries flag that it was. Instead I invited here to go to a supplier event ( tennis) with me, watched her drink up the bar and then be escorted out of the tent to puke by my Account Manager, and then had to drive through the city with her standing on the front seat out of the sunroof trying to chat up lorry drivers! Good times.

    13. TonyTonyChopper*

      The person I once phone screened for an HR manager role who not only had our company (global healthcare company) confused with a local construction company that specialized in medical facilities (mistakes happen), but then argued with me when I explained to him that we weren’t the same company and did completely different things. I mean got really rude and condescending about how he knew exactly who we were because “we” did the renovation of the hospital he was working at.

      Oh, and the lady who was obviously going through major drug withdrawals during our interview.

      1. Alli525*

        WOW to both of those.

        On the first day of on-site training at a long-ago job, I looked out of the window and saw a man clearly nodding off (from use of heroin) in one of the defunct phone booths that still litter NYC. I really should have taken that – PLUS the earthquake that occurred on my first day of actual (non-training) work – for the omen that it was, and run like hell from that company.

    14. Quill*

      At a previous job, we received this fax about an open position, more or less verbatim.

      “Hi, i am [name] and am looking for position with [description of my field] company. Please consider my resume attached.

      – Sent from my iphone”

      Needless to say, the resume did not follow, and my boss called me in to try and figure out how to open an email attachment from a fax machine while I tried to explain to him that it was a text message…

    15. NicoleK*

      I don’t have hiring duties at this time, but I would never hire these two people
      1. My current coworker (in her job for 5 years) who needs as much hand holding as a new hire
      2. Former coworker who bragged about how awesome she was, thought Excel was the solution to our data problem, and never delivered on many projects that she promised.

    16. SarahKay*

      Previous company, I managed Customer Service and Reception / Switchboard for a department store. We were looking for a new part-timer, with very specific hours.
      Purely by chance I was the person covering switchboard when someone called about the part-time job. I told her the hours and was met with a flat “Oh, no, those hours won’t work form, they’ll have to be changed.” I politely explained that no, they were the hours we were looking for, and they couldn’t be changed. To which the caller responded in a sharp tone of voice “Who do you think you are, to tell me what the hours will be?”
      “I’m the manager for the department” I replied.
      A rather chastened called asked if, perhaps, I could send her an application form.
      We did not call her for interview.

        1. SarahKay*

          I did, because at the time of the call I was too taken aback by the whole thing to actually say to her “No, I’m sorry, you’re clearly not suitable”. If I had it to do again I’d have just declined her there and then, because however rude she was, I do feel bad for letting her take the time to apply when she was never going to get that job.

    17. Beancounter in Texas*

      I once had an opening for a full time accounts payable job. I received an email from a candidate that attached a 3+ page less-than-stellar resume. His email contained two sentences that specified what hours he would work (less than full time) and that he’d be working from home. I was not that desperate.

    18. Cube Farmer*

      Was hiring for a Chief Llama Wrangler. We were in dire need so the receptionist passed a call to me from an experienced individual. When I answered, he huffed and the following conversation took place:

      Him: I already spoke with a receptionist. I need to speak to a man!

      Me: Sir, I am the Llama Wrangler Manager.

      Him: No, you don’t seem to understand little lady. I’m not going to talk to another receptionist or secretary or whatever you are. I need to speak to a man. The man hiring for this job.

      Me: Sir. I am the person hiring for this job. If hired, you would work directly for me, a woman.

      Him. Unintelligible mumbling. I’ll call back when I can talk to a man.

      Me: Sir, don’t bother.

      I truly don’t think he could wrap his head around how a woman (little lady) could be in my position in the male dominated field we were in.

      1. Rat in the Sugar*

        Whaaat, how could you not hire him?? When are you ever going to get another chance to hire a time traveler from the 1950’s??

      2. voluptuousfire*

        I would have put him on hold for a moment then picked up and said “This is a man, how can I help you?”

        Kinda like when a rep in a call center who receives a customer complain and the rep tells them they can’t do x because of why and when the customer asks for a manager, they put the customer on hold then come back on “yes, this is the manager.”

        You could have been a man for that few moments to tell this guy to kiss off. :D

      3. Observer*

        Was this guy a time traveler? I mean, even 20 years ago, who on earth used the term “little lady”?!

        1. Liza*

          I had a male candidate refer to me as “little lady” in a phone interview! Spoiler alert: we did not invite him for an in person visit.

      4. Minocho*

        I was interviewing intern candidates. I was going to be the supervisor, as I was the only software developer in house. I introduced myself as the programmer who would be supervising the positions, then we interviewed, talking about this candidates experience, schooling, and technical knowledge. Then he asked, “So, you’re, like, the HR lady, right? When will I talk to the technical guy?”

        “Well, as I stated, I will be the supervisor.”

        “Oh.” Blink blink. “You can do that?”

        …

    19. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      I had a guy who said, in an interview, “I am hungry. I’m ready to eat some HEARTS.” The other intervewer and I were so stunned we just laughed and joked along with him. To this day I picture him in a suit, tie, and blood all over his mouth with an evil grin.

    20. ella*

      I work at a library. My desk is behind the circulation desk, and I can often hear conversations that happen there. Somebody came up to the desk asking if we were hiring, and when the clerk said yes (and tried to direct them to the application website), they started talking about how much they’ve always wanted to work in a library because they love books and how everything is wrong with libraries now because they’re less about books. He also had ideas for how we should reorganize the books.

      Surprisingly, I am not going to hire somebody to work in the library (and interface with customers!) who seems to agree with every single Buzzfeed article ever written about the impending death and irrelevance of libraries and who wants to revamp our entire building and all of our policies while earning $11/hr.

    21. voluptuousfire*

      A candidate did a technical interview with my company and we rejected him since he didn’t do well and was rejected. He sent an email to the recruiter to essentially say why we were wrong and to complain about “the interviewer” and how she couldn’t possible know what she was doing. His entire email was sexist, negative, rude and even a little racist. (His interviewer was a woman of color.)

      All of this because a woman interviewed him. He didn’t even call her by her name, just “the interviewer.” He also called her bossy and stubborn, which in the context of the email was definitely gendered.

      We dodged a bullet there.

      1. JokersandRogues*

        That was so telegraphed I’m not even sure it was a bullet you dodged. Maybe a troll taking a really slow swing so you have time to run around and kick it in the back of the leg?

    22. Anonymosity*

      A list:

      –Coworker from Hell, the one who was so mean she made a salesman cry and quit after three days (this pre-dated my *short* tenure at the company). She made another one quit while I was there. Her sales numbers were good, but I don’t ever want to work with her again in this life or any other.
      –Bullyboss from Exjob. Lazy, plus a bully.
      –The guy who sent a rambling, handwritten manifesto to OldExjob with his driver’s licence reproduced at the top of the page. Not the picture; the entire licence.
      –A coworker from the deli in CA who flirted with all the male customers despite being engaged and ran off with one of them (he dumped her, hahahaha).

      I would, however, hire the CA coworker who hid in the walk-in during an armed robbery. Everyone made fun of him, but I think that was actually pretty goddamn smart and told him so. And I’d also hire either of my most recent exes if the job were a good fit for their skills, since I know they are punctual and conscientious people.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I was thinking a walk-in might be a good choice in a tornado if there was nothing else. A tornado hit below us and I got to realizing there are not a lot of cellars here…. Walk-ins can be quite handy.
        I do agree that hiding in the walk-in during a robbery was an excellent idea.

        1. What's with today, today?*

          24 people survived the F5 Joplin, MO tornado in a walk in beer cooler. 169 people didn’t survive that tornado.

          1. Anonymosity*

            Yep. My nephew was in it, however, and he and his friend survived in a bathroom, though the house did not.

    23. Very Hungry Caterpillar*

      After I spoke to a guy during a phone screen this week, he showed up at our front desk, demanded that the secretary tell him where my office was, refused to leave until he had proved he was he best person for the job, and said he would wait in the lobby for me to leave so he could talk to me on my way out. Security was called. Sorry dude, I don’t care how qualified you are, you’re never ever getting this or any other job here.

      1. Observer*

        I always wonder what’s going through the heads of people like that. Do they really think that they are going to be able to FORCE you to hire them?

    24. Independent George*

      This is similar to a Seinfeld episode. Maybe your candidate decided George had some good ideas when it comes to workplace norms. George has an interview, isn’t sure where he stands after the interview, and in true George Style, over analyzes. Since the hiring manager is on vacation for the next week, George decides to show up and let everyone know he’s the new hire. It’s a great episode, but a definite Alison no-no.

    25. Ender*

      A friend of mine works in HR and interviews a lot of people. One guy said his biggest achievement was getting his wife pregnant on their honeymoon :D :D

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        My likely external response to that: *nervous laughter*
        My internal response: “Eeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwww nooooooooooooo. why. why. why.”

    26. Happy Lurker*

      I had one candidate for a seasonal position get angry with me that I would not pay them cash. I explained it was a regular job, with a paycheck with taxes taken out. I was accused of stealing from them and then they told me they would find out where I lived and come to my house.
      Dead stop. They sounded totally unstable and I was nervous that they would.
      Yeah, rejected.

    27. Drama Llama*

      I had an applicant who talked himself up like every achievement/strength was the equivalent of climbing Everest to accept his Nobel Prize. So instead of saying “I started learning English when I moved here at 16 and learned to speak pretty fluently within a year”, he said “I made The Great Achievement of acquiring the Highest English Skills Possible only after studying English one year, demonstrating my Best Excellent Language Skills” (caps are my own, but I’m sure he would have added those if he were communicating to me in writing).

      Or, saying “One time I achieved the Highest Possible Amazing Sales Achievement of selling $x, which was the Most Highest Achievement out of everybody else who had ever worked there in the history of the company” when he meant to say “I got the highest sales results that week”.

      When it came to discussing salary he asked for a “pay raise” based on his “excellent sales results at his last job”. He was disappointed when I told him pay raises were based on achievements at our company, and not someone else’s.

      Yeah, he didn’t get the job.

    28. Kiwi*

      Hiring a teapot designer. This guy answered my first question with a 5-minute monologue about how important it was to glue the spouts on and how excellent he was at gluing. I let him finish, asked my second question. A short answer, then 3 more minutes about spout gluing. I asked a third question, more monologue about spout gluing. I cut him off mid-sentence and ended the interview.

    29. Eve*

      I was hiring for a office position for a company that also had a store. I always had the interviewee go to the store first and I went down to bring them up.

      After the interview went normally and the person left the store person called me to tell me what happened before the interview.

      Interviewee: The floors are really squeaky.
      Store Person: Yes, it’s a very old building, but they are too historic to replace.
      Interviewee: Same at my house so I don’t invite any fat people over.

      Nope.

    30. TheTallestOneEver*

      I’m an IT program manager and was hiring a technical team lead. I was one of two women on a five person interview panel. The first round of interviews focused on the technical expertise of the candidates. In response to one answer, a candidate was using a lot of jargon related to IT and federal agencies. After responding to one question, he looked at me and said to the men on the panel,”Look at her. She has no idea what I’m talking about.”

      Uh, yeah I did, dude. I understood every word, every acronym, all of it.

      We didn’t hire him.

    31. Amy*

      We had two advisor positions open, one required bilingual Spanish skills. Interviewing a bilingual applicant and reach the portion of the interview where we ask a few questions in Spanish and get a sense of conversational skills. Applicant looks terrified and says she’s not prepared to do that. I say understandingly, “fine we also have a nonbilingual position so we’ll continue in English.”
      She says, “Absolutely not, I’m applying for the bilingual position that pays more”.
      I share a glance with my co-interviewer, “…well shall I ask you the Spanish questions then?”
      She says “No, I’m too rusty but I promise I’ll be ready by the time I start. Trust me.”
      We did not hire her for either position.

    32. La Croix Drinking Monster*

      I once interviewed a potential co-worker (I did the screening interviews and it was a very close-knit team so I needed to not hate them) who had graduated relatively recently (within a year, I think). His resume was light on work experience, so I asked him some college questions, too, including, “What was your favorite college class?” I often had to add “not related to your major” because people tend to interpret this as an opportunity to claim they loved accounting or something, instead of a question to gauge personality fit.

      Anyway, he told me he loved an intro philosophy class, then proceeded to explain who Kierkegaard was, completely unprompted, the way you’d explain Kierkegaard to, say, an alien who just landed unexpectedly on Earth.

  10. How to help this employee?*

    This week’s column re:employee potentially in an abusive home situation was really timely for me and a good reminder to go back and read Marie’s comments from 2012, too.

    On Monday, one of my remote workers was verbally harangued by another organization’s manager. We don’t report directly to them, but we do stock teapots in their store and are always supposed to defer to them. I’m certain my employee was caught off guard by this new manager who she had never met and might have become defensive, but there was no need for him to have treated her the way he did. He unnecessarily escalated what didn’t need to be heated in the first place.

    I have another store that needs a teapot merchandiser. I don’t want her to feel punished in any way, but I don’t want her around this guy. He’s an ass and she doesn’t deserve to be treated that way.

    The kicker is that I’ve suspected for awhile that she may be in an abusive relationship at home and after she got home that day her partner (or someone posing as him) called the store and threatened physical violence against the manager who had been so terrible to her. The store manager said he knows that wasn’t her and that it’s fine for her to return to that store. I’m the one who isn’t comfortable with that. She is vulnerable and in a very difficult situation. To add further insult to injury, she was then robbed and sexually assaulted later this week.

    I don’t want to take away her sense of agency by making this decision for her, but she seems fairly anxious right now and I’m not sure she’s in a frame of mind that can make quality long term decisions right now. I want to create an environment where she can just focus on her job and not have to look over her shoulder wondering if this manger will give her a hard time again. Is it okay to make this decision for her?

    1. Monty's Mom*

      This sounds so terrible! I’m so sorry for your employee! Could you maybe offer the option to her, rather than making the actual decision, and see how to proceed based on her reaction?

    2. TonyTonyChopper*

      I’d maybe ask her first, but frame it in a way that she doesn’t feel like it is a punishment. “Hey, I know XXX manager is hard to deal with/is unnecessarily stressful to work with/etc, and we have an opening a different store with a more reasonable (or whatever) manager that would really benefit from your skills/experience. Would you be interested in taking the new client?”

      That way you aren’t deciding FOR her, it should boost her morale, and it makes it easy for her to say yes without feeling like she’s complaining or being problematic.

      1. How to help this employee?*

        I like your suggestion of framing how this other option could also benefit from her skills—that is completely the case and that gives her a way of saving face, too. If the other store really needs her, then she’s not running away, she’s being an asset. That’s something that might really speak to her sense of purpose.

    3. Matilda Jefferies*

      Good grief, that poor woman. Even if she is not in an abusive relationship (and I’m doubting your assessment at all), she’s had a hell of a week.

      I would say no, you can’t make this decision for her. But you can certainly ask her – something along the lines of “Hey, that other manager is an ass, and I don’t want you to have to work with him regularly. Would you be interested in a position in X instead of what you’re currently doing?”

      Or even offer to deal with that manager yourself from now on. It would actually be a kindness to all your staff, if it’s something you can easily take on – I’m sure they would all appreciate knowing that you’re willing to protect them from crap like that.

    4. CynicallySweet*

      Talk to her about it! Make it clear it’s her decision either way, and lay out the options. And then accept her answer. She may have legitimate reasons for wanting to stay at that particular store that she doesn’t want to tell you, so it’s important that you accept it if she says she wants to stay.

    5. Headshrinker Extraordinaire*

      That poor woman! I think if you present it the way you have here (you want her to have a comfortable working environment, the manager didn’t treat her well) and let her know that there’s another location that could use her, it might be a relief to her. As long as it’s not presented as a punishment she’ll hopefully feel like her manager is looking out for her.

    6. Reba*

      This will sound more aggressive than I mean it to, but: reconsider your feeling that she is not capable of making good decisions about her own life, and you…. somehow are?

      I get that people do things under stress that are less than optimal. But you can’t protect her from having regrets and taking decisions over big things (working conditions) out of her hands, when you have the opportunity to address it collaboratively, seems patronizing in the worst way.

      Let her know that you want to be supportive, that you believe in her work and want her to succeed, and lay out the options. Let her have some agency here. It’s great that you are looking out for her.

      1. How to help this employee?*

        No, your point isn’t aggressive. I can that side too which is why I’ve been torn. The robbery and assault was what left me really shaking my head. This woman can’t catch a break and she doesn’t think she *deserves* a break. From that angle, I just wanted to wave a wand and make the one problem I have any power over go away—the threat of this rude, verbally abusive manager. But yeah…it comes with the assumption that I know best what she needs right now and while I *might* have some good ideas, it’s far from guaranteed mine are best for her. I’ll offer her her options and see where it goes from there.

  11. Interview Pet Peeves*

    As someone who has been interviewer and interviewee many times: Give your interviewee a few minutes of softballs while they get their bearing. And for the love of God, at the very least open up with a quick overview of the role. It’s astounding how many interviewers sit me down, I’ve barely had a chance to catch my breath, and they open with, “tell me about yourself,” expecting me to give them an elevator speech when I don’t know them from Adam and all I know about the job is the description, which is often not really accurate.

    Also: for some reason twice an employer has asked me, “What do you think this job will be like?” I seriously don’t know what they’re trying to get at here (these aren’t mind reader jobs) so I just throw it back at them. It’s always the people who skip giving an overview of the job, too.

    Another peeve, but a smaller one: Asking what I know about the org. It always feels like a quiz to me, and I don’t know how much detail I should go into. From my experience as interviewer, if the candidate doesn’t know what your org does it’ll come out in other ways.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Huh. I’d say that “tell me about yourself” is a reasonable softball to open with.

      But when I interview, I do start by giving some information (introducing everyone who’s in the room, talking about how the interview will work, etc.).

      1. Interview Pet Peeves*

        I think that it’s too broad and kind of asks the candidate to sell themselves to you too early in the process. An explanation of the role followed by “what about this role interests you?” gives them room to describe their skills/experience/interest in a more natural way, imo.

        1. CheeryO*

          But presumably you have an idea of what the position is and you can give a little elevator-type pitch that relates your background to the position. I don’t think anyone expects a super detailed, hardcore pitch at that point in the conversation. It’s just a way to get things started.

          1. Interview Pet Peeves*

            And that is what I do. But there are lots of candidates who either a) aren’t as interview-savvy as us or b) get nervous in interviews, and for most just those qualities don’t mean that they wouldn’t be an excellent fit for the role. That’s why as an interviewer I try to make candidates as comfortable and excited about the role (as opposed to just nervous about impressing me) as I can within reason.

      2. Yorick*

        “Tell me about yourself” is just too broad. “I’m Yorick and I like long walks on the beach.” I mean, even if I can keep it together and keep it work related, do I tell you about my past work experiences? What I’m looking for in my career? What kind of worker I am?

        Also, if the job explicitly has multiple parts (I’m thinking academia, where you’ll do research and teach), make sure you specify or ask about each part separately. “What’s your biggest weakness?” is hard to answer when I don’t know what to apply it to. I asked once if they wanted to hear about teaching or research or what and they said “your biggest weakness in life.” Uh…….why do you want to know that I have no food willpower?

        2. Murphy*

          Oh yeah, I got asked once “What annoys you?” I said “In general, in life?” “Yes.” Uhh…

        4. College Career Counselor*

          Perhaps it’s wrong of me, but I would not ask you to tell me about yourself. I would have assumed you were a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

    2. Murphy*

      Yes! I once got asked what I thought the company did. This was an interview for an internship. I completely understood what they did, but they got overly nitpicky with my answer, at least for an internship interview. It definitely felt like a quiz, and I wasn’t sure that I’d passed.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Oh god, HR made me cry in an interview one time many years ago because they kept pushing and pushing on what I knew about the company. I still have no idea what they were looking for.

      2. A username for this site*

        My husband had a college interview like this. The alum conducting the interview spent most of the interview quizzing him on the particulars of the university and then condescendingly explaining the answers to him when he couldn’t answer. The questions were ones that were just not appropriate for an incoming freshman to be answering. Like, he would say, “Oh I am really interested in the teapot program, it’s one of the best in the country and I’m fascinated by teapots and teapot design sciences,” and the alum would chuckle, “It’s actually the 7th best program according to Higher Education Insider and I don’t understand how you could have applied here without knowing that. I bet you don’t even know the secret code word for breakfast burritos in the dining commons, you ingrate!”

        He left not wanting to get into the school and was glad he was rejected.

    3. Baby Fishmouth*

      I once was asked to prepare a presentation as part of the interview. I walked into the room, the three interviewers introduced themselves, and then they asked me to please do my presentation before they asked any questions. Needless to say, I bombed that interview because doing the presentation before saying anything else did *not* put me at ease.

      1. Interview Pet Peeves*

        Ugh, that sucks! Yeah, so many interviews are done in a way that basically just screen for people who are really good at interviews and at ease in situations like that.

        1. Baby Fishmouth*

          The worst part was I was supposed to prepare a 20 minute presentation, about a process very specific to their department/organization, including slide decks etc., with no guidance. It took me hours to create it, even longer to practice, and while I was at the interview it became clear I was being interviewed to meet a quota. They already had a person (from within their department) in mind to hire for the position and they were TRYING to screen me out with the presentation and very specific questions that only someone in their department could know.
          I’ve never been so mad in my life.

          2. Doug Judy*

            Something similar happened to me once, but no electronics were allowed, just printed materials. So I got a large poster board printed at Kinkos and individual hand outs. I spent every night for a week working on it. Then the second I walked in the room they had me give it. No introductions, not time to calm settle nerves. I didn’t get it. They should have asked me the actual interview question first then did the presentation. Instead I had four strangers just staring at me. Even if you were giving a presentation to a client there would be some exchange of pleasantries first, not walk in and immediately start a presentation.

            2. The New Wanderer*

              Huh, now that you reminded me, I was asked to do a 45-min presentation as part of a day-long interview process. Other than meeting with the recruiter to get set up for it, it was the very first thing I did before I even met or was personally introduced to basically anyone (I introduced myself as speaker but there were a dozen people in the room and a few on telecon so going around the room didn’t make sense).

              I didn’t get it either but I think that was more a function of not doing well in a few of the face-to-face interviews afterwards. Which would have been helped by them being a little more clear up front about what they were looking for (specific deep knowledge base) vs. what I thought based on the job description (mad research skillz and ability to learn on the fly).

    4. Not in US*

      I have the experience of having people come in for an interview who did not do any research and don’t know or understand what we did. So I have and do ask what someone knows about the company / department, etc. I had a candidate argue with me once that our whole division didn’t have an online presence – it did, a significant one. I see this as what should be a softball question. It should be easy to answer.

      I also tend to start with something like tell me about yourself or tell me about why your interested in the job – are also softball questions. If you can’t tell me why you’re even interested, then why are we here? I do agree that “What do you think this job will be like?” isn’t a fair question and that would tick me off.

      1. Interview Pet Peeves*

        Like I wrote above, I think “what about this role interests you?” is different and better–it’s narrower. I answer “tell me about yourself” as if they had asked me “what about the role interests you” but not everyone is an experienced and comfortable with interviews as I am.

      2. Washi*

        Yeah, I’ve gotten something along the lines of “what do you know about our organization” a lot, as well as “tell me about yourself” and I’ve never found it off putting. They’re both on most of the lists of common interview questions you find when you google, and I would consider them softball questions. (Versus nitty gritty behavioral or technical questions.)

      3. LJay*

        This.

        I don’t ask people what they think the position will be like, but I have been a part of interviews where people clearly did not read or understand the job description at all and seemed to have no idea what it would entail.

        (Like, it was a back of the house position dealing with minutia and paperwork and one of the candidates kept on effusing about how she loved working with the general public and meeting different people each day. In this job you would only meet a couple new people a year if new people got hired into the department we worked with. And I went days without talking to people. I’m an introvert and it was too low interaction with people even for me.)

        We go over the position in the interview, and reinforced to her that it would be solitary work sitting and doing data entry on a computer in an office alone, and she still continued to emphasize how much she likes interacting with the public. We screened her out because of that.

        We went back and checked the job listing and it wasn’t wildly out of line so we have no clue where they got it from.

        Also, it was for a company that most people in the US have at least heard of. It has a webpage. It has a Wikipedia article. Most people have at least a vague idea about what we do. The amount of outright wrong info people spit out when asked what they knew about the company in an interview was crazy to me.

        I always do ask people what they know about the company I work for now. This is to see if they did any research whatsoever to prepare for the interview, really.

        And I ask them what drew them to apply for the position, because if you applied for it there must be some reason why you chose this job to apply for over another one, right?

    5. Totally Minnie*

      I agree with this. I always start interviews with an overview of the position and our office, and then I ask the person what experience they have that they feel would be relevant for what I’ve just described.

      1. Interview Pet Peeves*

        That sounds good. I think a lot of interviewers really have lost sight of the fact that it’s just an incumbent upon them to sell themselves to the candidate as vice versa. That’s why I start with a summary of the role and org-partly to give them some time to get comfortable, and partly to get them enthusiastic about the opportunity.

        1. Lisa B*

          *blink* You know…. it has not dawned on me to go into an overview of the role. There’s a basic one in the job description that we post, and the positions we hire for are very regular for those in our industry…. but that makes a lot of sense, even just for a few minute, short-spiel. Never thought of it. Thanks!!

          1. Interview Pet Peeves*

            Happy to help! As someone who’s been interviewing a lot lately, it’s been surprising to me how off the descriptions can be. Not that they’re totally wrong, but one line might be worded to make it seem like one aspect is a huge part of the job, when really it’s minor. Or the description might not mention something significant to the job at all. So I think the role being described by a human is very helpful!

            1. WalkedInYourShoes*

              I am interviewing as well and have found that when I had my 2nd phone interview with a high-level manager, this manager mentioned that the job description is incorrect. Well, I had to automatically switch my mind and answers quickly to address the questions asked. Successfully, I did well. I totally agree that it’s important to share what the responsibilities of the role is. If the interviewer has not explained the role, I ask, “What type of engagement or support would you like to have from this role?” The answer most likely does not match the job description.

          2. nd*

            I do think it’s important. Even with a job description and posting, you can add a lot of context to the position in person that you can’t really do on paper. And it gives them the candidate the chance to ask initial questions. I usually like to start out by giving a high-level overview of our organization, where the position fits in, then an overview of the work itself.

    6. CynicallySweet*

      As someone who gets incredibly nervous before interviews I would have appreciate someone doing this for me. And as a perpetual over-thinker, ‘tell me about yourself’ is a spiral that immediately freezes me for a good half a minute

    7. FaintlyMacabre*

      One place where I worked would ask about your pets in the interview because it was a softball question and more to the point, it was a veterinary clinic. Even people who didn’t currently have pets could answer and if you were going to be a good fit in the clinic, you would have enthusiasm for the question. It also helped weed out the people who were slightly less suitable. “Uh, I had a dog growing up.” “Tell me about it!” “Uh, it was black?”

  12. Nervous Accountant*

    Yall, I’m freaking out.

    My work bestie is going on vacation starting today.

    Next week a lot of managers are out. 3 on vacation.

    Friday? Literally NO MANAGER after 3 PM. My boss doesn’t work on Fridays, one mgr leaves early for Sabbath, and the rest either have a half day or vacation.

    And 10 new people starting next week…5 on my side. This’ll be a great opportunity to develop my Mgmt skills but “)@;&:&/@/ I’m totally being my username.

    1. Utoh!*

      My manager has been out all week and it’s been the best one of the year. She makes me so crazy due to her indecisiveness and OCD about certain processes and policies. Not looking forward to her return.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Lol I love mine! We had our differences in the beginning but he has had my back and I have his!!!

    2. Nita*

      Ten new hires, wow! But take a deep breath. Are you supposed to do anything about the new people? Other than welcoming them and letting HR do the initial orientation, that is. I don’t think anyone would expect them to hit the ground running, so maybe you can start by giving them some training materials, and walking them through the basics.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Well, we’ve developed a 10 day long training that breaks it down to the hour. they’re on different teams, their individual team leaders are responsible for them. I won’t be doing this alone thank goodness. I’m still nerv tho . .

        1. EmKay*

          Sounds like things are locked down pretty tight and I expect them to go smoothly :)

          You can do this!

  13. Doug Judy*

    I have a phone interview screen on Monday. I talked to the HR contact to schedule my interview and when she sent the confirmation email O notic d her title was HR Intern. Now I’m paranoid that I’m not a serious candidate and they are letting her practice on some of the less qualified applicants. Is this a thing or am a psyching myself out for no reason?

    1. Combinatorialist*

      I would not be at all surprised if they are having the HR intern handle some of the logistics and other people will interview you (possibly, as well). I would not read into this that you aren’t a serious candidate.

      1. PB*

        This would be my assumption, too. Scheduling is a great thing to put an intern on. You can’t have them manage personnel conflicts, negotiating raises, and so forth. I suspect you’re fine, Doug Judy.

    2. The Dark Fantastic*

      You’re psyching yourself out. That’s not a thing. They’re most likely just letting her handle some straightforward stuff (like scheduling). She’s just doing some routine admin. It’s fine. Don’t overthink it!

      Good luck!

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Nah. Phone screens and scheduling are good starter tasks for someone in HR. You are way overthinking this.

    4. Snark*

      Yeah, you’re psyching yourself out. Stop looking for tea leaves to read. They’re letting the intern handle routine boring scheduling, is all.

      1. Doug Judy*

        She said she’d be doing the interview. But it could just be some simple questions too and nothing too specific.

        1. KE*

          Recruiter here– I’ve let HR interns participate in interviews and ask questions. If she does the interview entirely by herself, that’s a little unusual, but doesn’t reflect on your candidacy. Depending on the company, they might be extending offers to interns soon, and giving them substantive work to really evaluate their skills. Plus, given the growth in master’s programs in HR, she could very well be a graduate student with some career experience under her belt.

          Good luck with your interview!

          1. Washi*

            Yeah, I have a friend in grad school whose title is intern, and she definitely does some initial interviews.

          2. LJay*

            Also, it’s a phone screen, not a full interview.

            In my current company, phone screens are pretty much used to make sure you actually “show up” to the interview by calling or answering your phone on time, to go over the job description with you, let you know what the salary range is, let you know how our hiring process works, ask if you have any questions, and ask if you are still interested in moving forward in the hiring process now that you know more about the job and the pay range.

            Also to clear up any potential logistical issues, like “From your resume it looks like you’re currently in Chicago. Are you aware that the position is in Dallas?” Then they can go, “Oh yeah, I actually am in Dallas now but forgot to update my contact information,” or “I’ll be relocating to Dallas shortly,” or “I was wondering about remote work” which the screener could tell them is not possible for the position, or “I am willing to relocate for the right offer,” where the screener could let them know that we don’t offer any sort of reimbursement for relocation for this position and ask them if they want to move forward.

            They’re not really doing anything subjective that would require nuanced judgment, just asking questions and reporting back to the hiring manager, or relaying information the hiring manager has asked them to relay.

    5. Anonymous Community Teapot Director*

      This sounds like the type of task I would delegate to an intern for all candidates. I don’t think it speaks to their perception of how qualified you are – except that they want to interview you, which is a positive sign.

    6. Bea*

      It’s a phone screen! It’s easily scripted and the best to wet interns feet in. It’s not a sign. Treat her like she’s full HR and kill the interview!

    7. CynicallySweet*

      This is a thing, but not anything about you. More like HR is swamped and it’s easy to give an intern a list of names to e-mail and set up a time for. Take a breath, you are fine, it’s highly likely everyone getting a call got an e-mail from that exact same intern

    8. Swinburne*

      I wouldn’t worry – frankly, on the other side I feel it would be more work to sort a “serious” pile, a “hell no” pile and a “intern practice” pile.

  14. Junior Dev*

    Freelance writing question: how is a magazine article supposed to be structured? It’s 1400 words and I have about 3 disconnected sections written that I’m struggling to get into a coherent whole.

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, sometimes you just have to kind of take a left turn, and subheads or “chapters” can work really well to shift gears. It helps if you can tie them all up together at the end.

  16. ANON ME*

    My manager passed out Girl Wash your Face to our team and we are tasked with doing the book study together. She’s so excited, and I’m so not. We have a team of mostly women and 1 married man. He has to read it too. She told him it will help his home life. Thoughts???

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Weird!

      Does this book have any relevance to your job? Is a book study group something that will benefit your role? Or is it an attempt at team-building?

      1. ANON ME*

        So far I’ve only flipped through it, and I haven’t even cracked the study guide, but the full name (I probably should have listed the full name) is “Girl, Wash Your Face: Stop Believing the Lies about Who You Are So You Can Become Who You Were Meant to Be.”

        2. General Ginger*

          Is your org. Christian? I just checked and it’s the #1 in Christian Living Self Help subcat on Amazon.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      Because his home life has to have a woman in it? Because all women have the same experience? Because we are all being held back and need to fix that?

      This seems very sketchy. I mean, it sounds like 100% my kind of book but if my manager had us read it together, I would be very displeased.

      1. TonyTonyChopper*

        I swear if I had a dime for every time my husband gets “relationship advice” from his overwhelming female coworkers (who have met me all of 2 times) I’d be able to quit my job.

        PEOPLE STOP ASSUMING EVERY WIFE IS UNHAPPY WITH HER HUSBAND! I am really happy in my marriage and while my spouse is a bit (ok, a lot) unconventional… I LIKE HIM THAT WAY! THAT IS WHY I MARRIED HIM! And it’s not like we’re newlyweds. We just had our 8th wedding anniversary. I mean I’m not saying that is some huge feat, but it is long enough to reasonably assume if I was unhappy I would have left by now.

        Sorry – will stop ranting now. Just a HUGE pet peeve of mine (obviously).

        1. RegularPosterAnonForThis*

          +1

          I generally assume that because my husband is respectful, a good listener, and has very high emotional intelligence, these women are using him as a proxy to vent all the things they wish their own husband would do differently.

        2. Kat in VA*

          See also: the female coworker who, upon meeting you, gushes that, “Oh, Husband has told me soooo much about you!!” Me: bewildered smile, “Oh, that’s…nice?” while glancing at Husband who looks utterly baffled. (His poker face is garbage. He was surprised as hell.)

          When Husband later says in response to my inquiry, “I barely talk about you, I have literally no idea what she’s going on about.”

          And proceeds to tell me that she’s constantly giving him relationship advice, but in the vein of, “If you want to keep Kat happy, you should do X, Y, and Z or you’re never gonna make it!” He just blew it off in the vein of “This woman is giving me hints again, that’s nice, where’s the TPS report I need?”

          This woman has been divorced three times. I’ve been with Husband for 30 years. It’s baffling. She’s gone now, which is a relief, but I thought it was an odd way to introduce herself.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      Had to Google it… yeah that’s weird. If you have to team book club, there are a MILLION self-help books out there that are not gender-specific.

    4. Rey*

      I have heard good things about this book, but I would be surprised to be instructed to read it at work. And I thought it was generally aimed at women, so I’m surprised that your manager didn’t choose something that would be a better fit for your team.

    5. Persimmons*

      Also had to Google…by the name, I was guessing you’d been given free Benefit or Lush products.

    6. LawLady*

      Yeeeeeeesh. No. I’d be iffy on self-help type books at work in general, but one with an explicit religious slant? No thank you.

      And it’s not at all about the kind of growth that is work-related (like “How to Win Friends and Influence People”). It’s about living an authentic life. Is your manager terrible at boundaries in general?

      1. What's with today, today?*

        Yes. She also thinks she has it ALL figured out (she doesn’t). I hadn’t even picked up on the religious bent yet, we are pretty lapsed, super liberal Catholics, this should be interesting. My husband had major eye rolls about this.

        1. ANON ME*

          Aw crap, my login went back to my default name. Y’all pretend you don’t see that. Going Anon again…

    7. Belle of the Midwest*

      I love this book but it is so totally not appropriate for a work-related book study. I run a book club for my department and our selections are all related to the goals of our organization (for September, a book to help students who want to change their major, for October, a book on fixed vs. growth mindset. . you get the idea). Unless your organization is a church or parachurch, I don’t blame you for not being excited. you’ll be sitting in the discussion group trying to come up with the most impersonal personal examples possible.

    8. Kate R*

      I’m currently reading this book. I have no idea how it ended up on my radar because I absolutely hate it, but I’m powering through because I like to have a full knowledge of the things I hate so that when people come at me with, “maybe you just didn’t really understand”, I can say, “No, I did. I read the whole thing.” Anyhow, aside from the gender issue, it’s just all sorts of inappropriate for work. There is a really strong religious component (i.e. at least a few chapters just tell you to have faith in God). My next chapter is about not defining yourself by weight, which I’ve heard had some REALLY horrible discussions of extreme dieting techniques. There’s also some graphic discussion of suicide which would be upsetting to mostly anyone, let alone someone who may have lost a loved one to suicide. I also don’t see how any of this could apply to any career other than becoming a motivational speaker. I honestly don’t understand why anyone likes this book (and I have several friends who LOVE it), but as a manager, I can’t believe she’d recommend it to her employees. *shaking head feverishly*

      2. Jaydee*

        I listen to Rachel Hollis’ podcast. There have been a few decent episodes and a few where my eyebrows have tried to merge with my hair and I’ve quickly just moved on to the next episode.

        I have a love-hate relationship with the part memoir/part self-help book genre. They are so often cringe-worthy, but sometimes there are nuggets of truth and value you can pull from them or you can at least have the satisfaction of thinking “wait, this person is really messed up, but she’s still successful in her life and career, so maybe I’m doing okayer than I think.”

        Also, I didn’t know that Girl Wash Your Face was a workplace self-help book. I thought it was just general women’s lifestyle self-help stuff….

        1. Kate R*

          I actually did like the chapter on striving for goals, even though her goals seemed to center on being rich and famous. I’m very much a goal oriented person, so I related to that chapter above all. I agree that it is a more a general women’s lifestyle self-help book. I meant to question why a manager would suggest it to her employees. I guess I was assuming the manager intended for it to improve their work lives, but perhaps she just really liked it and thought everyone could benefit from it for their outside of work lives.

    9. OhGee*

      Nope nope nope nope nope. I admit a weakness for workplace self-help books, but I *sure* don’t want (to be forced) to share that experience with my coworkers.

  17. AnonToday*

    My boss just started working semi-remotely (he works from the office two or three days a week, from home the rest of the time). The other colleague that I work most closely with has a flexible work arrangement (he works part time and his location is totally flexible). My boss does a pretty good job of keeping his calendar updated, but my other colleague does not – when we schedule meetings I can never trust his calendar and have to wait for his reply.

    It’s super frustrating. I never know when I can reach them, where they are (and therefore whether it’s best to call, email, or text), or whether they will show up for meetings in person or want to call in. And – personal bias here – I HATE when they decide to call in instead of come in for meetings that I run, especially when they give just a couple of hours notice. It totally changes the dynamic of the meetings to have five of us in a room and the two of them on the phone – and makes the meetings less effective than an in-person working session.

    I don’t really have a question. I know there’s nothing I can do about it, and I appreciate that my employer offers flexibility. I just wanted to offer a view from the other side – when my coworkers take advantage of that flexibility it makes the work harder and slower for everyone.

    1. WellRed*

      I am unclear on why you consider this unfixable. Have you had conversations with either about the importance of clear communication? Flexible scheduling should not mean random guessing games on your part.

      1. AnonToday*

        Oh, yeah, there’s a lot of backstory there. It may be fixable, but not by me.

        My manager is getting performance coaching about his flakiness, and the other colleague is very senior and has a sort of “emeritus” status that lets him set his own way of doing things (…and he has a very hands-off “manager-in-name-only”).

        1. As Close As Breakfast*

          Wow. Your manager, who is getting performance coaching about his flakiness, has just started working semi-remotely? That seems like a strange decision on someone’s part…

    3. BeenThere*

      I have a grandboss like this. He’s a jerk about his calendar and we can never nail him down. We just trust that if there’s something he doesn’t want to do, he will find an excuse. We mostly work around him…

  18. PinkNinjaTurtle*

    If my company is throwing something away, can I take it out of the dumpster and sell it?

    I work for a professional association of “teapot makers.” We are going through a sort of spring cleaning and they’ve placed several large rolling trash bins all over the office. I’ve noticed that there are many things being tossed that have a decent resale value—namely some very technical teapot-making textbooks that resell for over $100 in some cases. The books were sent by various publishers in hopes that one of our experts would review them. Our experts rarely do that, so the books just sit around until one of these cleaning events. So can I fish them out and resell them on eBay? Or is there another ethical consideration here? For reference, we are technically a non-profit, but have an operating budget in the mid-eight-figure range, with another eight figures in reserves. Money is not an issue in these parts.

    1. Anon today*

      If the books are ARCs you may not be able to resell them without violating the agreement with the publisher. I would ask someone at your company if you can take those before doing it.

      1. Rey*

        And when you ask, specify that you are going to resell them, not keep them for your own reference, and make sure that you are both on the same page about what happens with the money made from resell.

      2. General Ginger*

        Yes to finding out if there is an agreement. If there is no agreement, they technically can be resold, though I still think it wouldn’t look great for the OP to ask if they could sell the company’s trash.

    2. Totally Minnie*

      If you do this, you might run the risk of ruining any relationship your company is likely to have with those publishers, and your administrators would not thank you for it.

    3. fposte*

      Nononono.

      You’d absolutely have to have informed permission from your employer for this not to be sketchy. There’s too much advantage to you in stuff being thrown out here for this to happen without being aboveboard about what you’re doing.

      Other people have mentioned the issue with reselling ARCs; the main problem there is that the publisher who discovers limited copies is likely to stop sending material, though, and it sounds like you guys don’t want the material in the first place, so that might not be an obstacle. But don’t make money off your employer’s trash without your employer’s consent.

    4. Danny*

      I work in publishing, although not textbook publishing. Selling a galley or an advanced readers copy is a HUGE no-no. It is REALLY not okay to do – it’s bad for the author, the publisher, and ultimately the reader because a lot of changes can happen between the stages of editing and publishing, and it’s a huge disservice to the writer to essentially have an authorized version floating around in the general readership. Almost every publisher has a note to consult the final and finished version of the book if you’re going to quote in a review.

      I’ve sold final copies of books to the local used bookstore and I feel … okay about that because it’s pretty much a donation (it’s a couple of bucks of store credit for a huge box of new hardcover books) but I don’t know if I would do it again. I mostly give away or donate. I don’t think it looks great if someone found out you were selling copies that the company would be sent, even if it’s technically kosher. But recycling them is definitely wasteful (although huge percentages of books end up getting pulped anyway) and I’d recommend donating them or having a lending shelf for coworkers to take books from.

      1. General Ginger*

        Optics-wise, I agree: this looks bad. I wouldn’t try to sell my company’s trash.

        However, the courts disagree on the sale of unsolicited ARCs/promos being a no-no; first sale doctrine was ruled to apply. I’ll put the link to the UMG vs. Augusto decision in a follow-up comment.

        If OP’s company has an agreement with these publishers to receive copies for review, then it’s another story, and they cannot be resold.

    5. Bea*

      You need permission. Why are they tossing these instead of donating them in the first place? That’s what rings my bell most of all. Usually trash isn’t the optimal choice for usable materials unless they have a reason. Like not being allowed to give them out due to reselling issues.

    6. Holly*

      Ethical considerations aside, which have been covered by the other commenters, do you really want to be known as the employee who went through the company garbage to sell things that were in it? I don’t see this helping you professionally – in fact, the opposite is more likely.

      If you’re concerned the practice is wasteful, I’d recommend sending the books back to the publishers or whatever else can be done. They cannot be sold.

    8. General Ginger*

      PinkNinjaTurtle, do you know if your company has an agreement with these publishers to receive review copies, or if they send them unsolicited?

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I worked for an NPO where a lot of useful stuff made it to the dumpster. I always asked before I took anything. And it was very clear that I could only take it for my own personal use.
      Please be very careful and thorough here.

  19. Qwertyuiop*

    I’ve been at my job for a almost a year now and I still feel like I don’t fit in. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong either. I’ve tried socializing with the other women, but they seem to not want to socialize with me. If they do, it’s a short conversation. Otherwise they only talk to me when they need help with something. I ask about them and their families, but it feels awkward or tense. Maybe I’m appearing overeager? It doesn’t help that my coworker is snarky and likes to rub it in my face about how social she is and how everyone likes her. I’m introverted and quiet, so that doesn’t help.

    I’ve heard other coworkers make comments like, “Oh, there’s a smile. Qwerty looked upset, but then she started laughing.” or something about my face… I can’t change my face!

    What am I doing wrong? How do I get others to relax around me?

    1. peachie*

      Oof, I don’t have any advice, but I feel you. :/ I’m five months in and have maybe 1/2 a work friend since my office-mate left a few weeks ago.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I also don’t have much advice unfortunately but am sympathetic. I would say it pretty consistently takes me well over a year to really have work friends. Even now, in a job I’ve had for 3 years, I have a few friends and am friendly with about half the office…. and regularly have people coming around asking everyone who sits around me to lunch (but me). I’ve gotten WAY better and just asking where they’re going and if I can tag along but it probably took about 2 years to get there.

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        Trent at Simple Dollar just wrote a post about how to warm up a cold workplace that may help you.

      1. Margery*

        Totally agree with this – just keep doing your job and do a great job – they are just childish idiots

      1. But you don't have an accent...*

        Ugh me too. One time, I got to listen to the two ladies who sit next to me plan a happy hour that they made pretty clear I wasn’t invited to (talked about who they were inviting, etc., and then when one left she said “see you tomorrow” -_-).

        I’ve cried at work 3 times, and that was one of them. That’s when I decided I just wouldn’t have work friends outside of the three that I made after being on projects with them.

        2. SparklingStars*

          I had something similar to this happen at my former job. People can be so inconsiderate of other people’s feelings sometimes! Luckily I have the loveliest co-workers in the world at my current job, so yeah my former co-workers really were just jerks.

        3. Courageous cat*

          Yep this happened to me at my last job, exactly. They planned out the whole thing all morning and everyone was invited except me. They just talked around me like I wasn’t there.

          I was the new person for MANY months at that team, so once the next new girl started, they began to warm up to me and by the time I left (after 8 months) we were all much better friends, and I was getting invited to stuff.

          So sometimes it’s just a newness thing, I guess? I don’t know. It sucks horribly.

    7. Bea*

      They sound like snobby jerks. I’m sorry that they won’t warm up. I am meshed fine enough with my coworkers, we chat infrequently. I can tell we just don’t “get” each other at this rate.

    8. Holly*

      There’s an image of a flowchart I’ve seen posted around that’s basically about how social isolation is self fulfilling prophecy. Is it possible your feelings of being withdrawn/anti social are contributing to how you see your coworker’s comments or body language rather than the other way around? Is it possible that you *don’t* smile at your coworkers because you already feel like they don’t like you, and that makes it seem like you’re not being friendly with them, so they don’t socialize with you as much, which makes it feel like they don’t like you? For example?

    9. Lucille2*

      I’m the same way. Sometimes it takes me a long time to really fit in with coworkers. I have found that this has improved for me as I’ve gained more self-confidence in myself and my work. My work relationships always start out on a professional level, not a personal one. Focus on the work and what comes naturally to you. Just be you and don’t worry about meeting other people’s social expectations.

      Also, nothing irks me more than people commenting on my lack of social interaction. Just remember that they are pushing their own social expectations on you. No need to be something you’re not to make them feel more comfortable. It’s also possible you’re working in a bit of a cliquey environment. I’m not a fan of those kinds of workplaces myself as the social hierarchy tends to be prioritized over individual merit.

    10. LilySparrow*

      I’ve found that as I get older and my work peers move to more demanding stages of life (marriage, kids, family, house, aging parents, chronic illnesses of their own…) it takes much longer to move from “pleasant colleague/acquaintance” to “work Buddy” or “personal friend”.

      I’d allow 18 months to really start settling in socially in a new workplace, especially if they have a lot of personal demands outside the office.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      So much for being a welcoming crew, eh? Sigh.

      I have often thought that the responsibility falls on the new hire to engage others. I have seen it happen to me too many times.
      I do find that people who have to talk about the idea that they are well liked by others, in reality are NOT well liked by others. The truly well liked people, don’t seem to notice or concentrate on that at all. Tell yourself when she says that, it is her OPINION of herself and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of others.

      I had coworkers who hung out together and separately tell me how each one hated the other. Remember that there is usually more to the story. You may be doing just fine and not even realizing how fine you are doing.

      I see your concern about facial expressions. Use your words to show interest and don’t worry about your face. You know, a simple “HEEEEYYY!” greeting can convey more than the biggest smile in the world. You know that elongated “heeeeyyy” when you see a friend, that type of greeting.

      It’s not your job to get them to relax around you. Ironically, just work on relaxing yourself. Be conversational but also be competent. Being competent is a crock pot solution, it takes a while for people to realize, “Wait, OP is actually doing a good job. And she has been doing a good job for a while now.”

      This is going to sound odd, but remember it’s YOUR work place TOO. Tell yourself that. Decide that you are not a mean nor vicious person and at some point they will indeed figure that out. I know first hand that there were times all I had was my own belief in myself.

      Last and this one is really odd. Decide to like them regardless of what they seem to think of you. You can deliberately look for one cool thing about each person and hang onto that thought. Sometimes people reflect back our own awkwardness or uncertainty. Sometimes no one really dislikes anyone but they simply have not decided TO like the person instead they focus too much on what the other person may think of them.

  20. Amber Rose*

    Friday Feel Good Moment: On the way to work, I saw our city’s grass maintenance team. They are hard at work nomming dandelions today and being generally awesome rockstars in their chosen profession. Also they are goats. Roughly 300 goats. :D

    More relevant to me: I think I’m going to sneak in one of my old laptops for a presentation on Monday. All the laptops disappeared in the move and I have no idea how to do this thing otherwise. I’ll wipe it clean over the weekend, and it’s not like we have IT or security or anything to get mad at me. Think this is a bad idea? I kinda feel like it is, but I also kinda feel like I have no idea how to do my job otherwise.

    1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      Umm, where do you live so I can go there immediately and see these goats for myself?

      1. Amber Rose*

        A prairie city in Canada. Our mayor was voted best mayor in the world or something, this is one of the reasons why. He sent out a request for suggestions on dealing with our rampant dandelion problem, goats came up at #1, and that’s what he did. There was a “meet the goats” event in one of our bigger parks a while ago, which I sadly missed. I was excited to see them today.

        3. Anonmanon*

          Every time I hear about goats like this it just reminds me of the time a large city nearby had one of theirs goat-napped. Luckily, the goat-nappers crashed their vehicle and police found that goat in the back unharmed, but still….stresses me out to think of a maintenance worker becoming dinner.

      1. Amber Rose*

        So many pro goats! I had no idea we had so many. It makes sense, since it’s a big city, but it was really something to see them all together.

    4. KR*

      I love the goat thing. Vegetation management is something we deal with regularly. I’m always bugging my manager about getting a herd of goats for our grassier jobsites but apparently they tried it and had the goats jumping all over our equipment. :/ I shall keep trying though!!

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          I did not know this!!

          Long Island and Westchester County need lots of goats, obviously. Every time I visit someone with a yard in either place, I see poison ivy.

    5. PB*

      My mother sent me a photograph of her local maintenance team recently. A trio of goats named Ruth, Bader, and Ginsburg. I love everything about it.

      3. A username for this site*

        My FIL sent a picture of Ruth, Bader, and Ginsberg from his local newspaper! They must live near each other.

    6. WellRed*

      The laptops may have disappeared but that shouldn’t put the onus on employees to sneak in their own. Have you asked for a laptop? Even if this us temporary, why the secrecy?

      1. Amber Rose*

        This company is notoriously stingy about laptops. The ones we have are so old and horrible and barely work. The one I was using last year just up and bit the dust, and they somehow managed to coax it back to life and gave it to a new employee.

        But apparently they found me one I can use next week. :/

      1. Emily S.*

        Here’s an excerpt:

        ‘…While the residents were witnessing real-time property damage, they seemed to be in a good mood about it. Children jumped up and down in excitement.

        “You would assume the homeowners were upset that their lawns were being destroyed, but everyone was enjoying it,” Mr. Parris said. “Everyone was really happy about it.”

        The goat-renting company has insurance “and will be following up with neighbors whose landscaping was damaged,” said Haley Williams, a spokeswoman for the Boise Police Department.’

      2. Amber Rose*

        According to that news article, even the people whose lawns were wrecked were pretty chill about it, because goats are awesome. :D

    8. nd*

      We also use goats fairly regularly and for specialized weed control. They are fantastic and people love seeing them!

    9. As Close As Breakfast*

      Oh man! I used to work at a national lab that brought goats in every year for a couple of weeks to eat up all the hillsides. It was the best time of the year! They were in a different field every day and it was like a game trying to spot them from the shuttle vans. Goats! Goats! DO YOU SEE THE GOATS, PEOPLE?????

    10. SJ*

      Aaaaaand…another fantastic reason to move to Canada…(I know we have them here too…but Canada is SO nice!)…

  21. Heathers*

    My co-worker is upset that I had Adobe Pro installed before her. She put in a request for it first and I had the IT guy setting up my computer, so I asked him for it. When she found out that I had it before her, she flipped her lid. “WHY DO YOU HAVE IT?”

    I don’t know if it’s because she put in a request before me or just the fact that I had it, but her response was very dramatic.

    Best part? 2 hours later it was installed on her computer. We work together- it isn’t a competition.

    Sheesh! What is the deal with people?

    1. Nervous Accountant*

      Probably upset that she put in her request first… maybe she’s always been told “first come first serve” and feels like she singled out by not getting it.

      How is she w you otherwise?

      (If there’s lots more context that I’m not aware of, please forgive me. And I’m fully aware that I’m projecting my own insecurities on this so whatever I said doesn’t apply).

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        “They said ‘you don’t have the program yet because we take requests in order’ and it was a LIE!” seems like an excellent rant to have at your windshield as you drive home. But not at your coworker. (Maybe unless you have stumbled onto the secret carbohydrate rule, where your coworker drops off requests with a batch of cookies and goes to the top of the queue.)

    2. Ciara Amberlie*

      Two scenarios… Either she’s weirdly competitive about completely random small stuff, in which case ignore her. Or it’s a manifestation of something bigger, like her thinking that you always get preferential treatment at work and she feels that it’s unfair, which might be worth looking into (whether or not it’s true!)

    3. DCGirl*

      I worked at a place where we implemented flex schedules and got a flex day every other week. If do the math, that means 26 flex days a year. So, just like some payroll schedules, there would be a month when you got to take three flex days instead of two. I was the first person on the flex schedule to achieve that milestone. One of my coworkers was absolutely livid about it and complained bitterly for days. We tried to explain to him that his day would come too, but he still kept griping.

      You’re right. We work together. It’s not a competition.

    4. BeenThere*

      I work with people like that too. She can have my Adobe Pro DC. The new version is a pain!!!

    5. Lissa*

      I know some people with extremely rigid ideas about Fairness, to the point where Fairness should always come first, even above what might be easier in the moment – so in her mind, she put the request in first so even if it was easier since the IT guy was already there and it makes no difference, she put her request in so she *should* get it first, because…fairness! Some of these people are at least even-handed about it, but many of them only notice when the “unfairness” applies to them, and never would if it was the other way around. This is why so many of these people are convinced they are the scapegoat/black sheep/treated worse than everyone else. They are paying extremely close attention to unfair things that negatively impact them, but don’t notice when it cuts the other way.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed.
        And I have also seen this type of reaction in companies that were wildly UNfair. So it can go both ways. It could be the cohort or it could be the company.
        A friend worked in place where he swore that you had to create a scene before anything would happen. In other words, the employees felt unheard and ignored. Seeing the news articles about the place, I tend to believe my friend.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Probably because she put in a request for it and/or has been waiting for it for awhile. She may have even had to justify why she needed it (often the case with the full Adobe products because of cost).

    7. Lucida Console*

      IT just installing on yours to forestall a future ticket, and co-worker sounds like an pia so her tickets are worked on with as much slowness as can be gotten away with.

  22. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom

    I got called up to the reception area to speak to someone. It doesn’t happen often that I go and talk to people, 97% of my work is at my desk, and on the phone. Usually when someone’s here, I have to talk to them about an obituary that they’ve brought it. It is never fun. This time, I get up there and there’s a little old lady waiting. She came in to tell me thank you for running her reunion notice in the paper, and that she’d appreciated all my help getting it in.

    Farquad had to go to the hospital last Saturday, he was throwing up blood. (If I’ve learned anything from movies, it’s that we’ve probably all got tuberculosis now.) He was complaining on Monday, when he was back to work, that his friends on facebook didn’t agree with what the doctor was saying. Cause that’s where I get my medical advice. He’s talking about all this while holding a monster energy drink. I didn’t, but wanted to tell him I’d diagnose him for free. He drinks too much coffee, dips, doesn’t take care of himself, and his gut has turned caustic and is eating him from the inside out.

    Fergus and Jane have been, well, not fighting, but they had a fight several months ago and were not speaking. After she took the job to become my counterpart, he had to work with her more. (The fight was his fault.) He’s been very friendly lately, to the confusion of us all. Yesterday, he told her that it’s a pain in the butt to have her mad at him.
    A guy called the other day and yelled at me, because we published an article about him ‘a couple of years ago.’ He was mad, and said that he wasn’t ‘on the drugs’ but we’d said that he was. He did not stop to draw breath for at least two minutes, while he told me all about how we’d ruined his life. People wanted to hurt him (?) because of what we’d published, and he couldn’t get a job, and he didn’t go to jail. He finally paused for breath, and then mentioned the magic word (lawyer) and I transferred him to my editor. He was arrested in 2014. I don’t think we’re the reason for his problems.

    And finally, a pet peeve. If you are picking out an obit photo, DO NOT. DO. NOT. Use one that has been rattling around in the junk drawer for the last thirty years. Make sure the photo, if it’s a physical one, is clean. It’s ok if it’s a little discolored, or old. That’s fixable. Don’t use a low quality one if you can help it. If the photo is a frame, TAKE IT OUT OF THE FRAME, and THEN take a photo of it. Make sure your reflection isn’t visible. Y’all would not believe some of the things that people send in.

    1. Quill*

      Throwing up blood sounds scarily like when one of my friends had an ulcer. (Though I guess if they let him out of the hospital it’s probably a minor one?)

    2. jm*

      I worked for two weekly community newspapers for about 5 years, and relate to everything you said here!
      Highest point (literally): Getting to ride in a Blackhawk helicopter with the Coast Guard, doors open and all!
      Lowest point: Angry family throwing newspapers around the reception area, using profanity, and being very ugly because of a wreck photo we published.
      Second lowest point: Getting cussed out by a mother because we published her daughter’s pageant photo near the obituary section (socials were always near obituaries, unfortunately, for space reasons).
      Small town newspapers can be very interesting, fulfilling places to work, but they can also be a total pain in the rear.

    3. Jaid_Diah*

      Like that one dude selling a teapot on Ebay? Highly reflective surface and he was nekkid.

      Thanks for the update, Bee!

    4. Margery*

      Ha ha – absolutely love your updates – please keep them up – imagine leaving the photo frame on.

    5. LJay*

      I’d be concerned about the guy that called in about y’all ruining his life.

      I don’t know if you have or can get some form of building security, but if you have them I would notify them about the call, and if you don’t I would notify whoever is above you in the chain of command and see if they think there might be a need for some protective measures.

      If he feels like he has nothing to lose due to his current circumstances being so bad, and thinks that you guys are to blame, it could be a dangerous situation.

      2. Bee's Knees*

        He was all talk, but yes, we do have security. Cameras at the entrances, and keypad locks on the doors. There didn’t used to be the locks, but someone got mad once, stormed through reception, and right into the publisher’s office. They socked him in the nose, and then saw themselves out. He had the locks installed after that.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      “Y’all would not believe some of the things that people send in.” Oh…Yes I can.

      Full-page ads created in Word or Powerpoint (oh the horror)
      60 x 60 pixel photos for magazine printing (can’t you just blow it up?)
      Anyone who says: “I created my own ad from my business card!”

      I’m a designer, not a miracle worker.

  23. ArtK*

    Here’s a resume question for those of you who hire for tech positions. I had a recruiter question the organization of my resume and I would like to get some opinions. My resume currently has two major sections, a chronological experiences/accomplishments and a second section covering all of the technologies/programs that I’m competent in. Things like: Java 8, J2EE, Spring.

    The experiences section has items like (this is a paraphrase): “Delivered 5 releases of Product X on time and within budget.” I *don’t* mention the specific technologies used. The recruiter was asking why it didn’t say “Delivered 5 releases of Product X on time and within budget; these used Java 8, J2EE, Spring” I’d never thought of citing the technologies directly with the accomplishments — I think that would make it very messy (lots of redundancy) and harder to read.

    What are your thoughts?

    1. Junior Dev*

      I would put the technologies as an engineer. I might not as a project manager or something. If I had a different role, like QA or UX, I would put the technologies I personally used in that role.

      1. ArtK*

        You mean directly in the accomplishments/experience? Why would you put it directly there when it’s already in the collected technologies section that follows. I’m trying to understand why associating a particular technology set with a specific accomplishment would be necessary. I’m a senior engineer/architect and some of these projects may use a dozen or more different technologies.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      I think separating it into two sections completely either

      1. avoids a good sense of how strong your competencies are in or
      2. has a lot of redundancies.

      Taking a class in something or having done a toy project with something is a lot different from having done 5 releases of a real product with something. So either you have to give some sense of that in the technologies section (presumably repeating stuff from experience) or it isn’t clear which is which. I think the technologies section still adds value, but if it is just subjective assessments of your competencies with each, that doesn’t mean much without context.

      I think the recruiter’s wording a bit awkward and would probably say something like “Delivered 5 releases of Product X (in Java, J2EE, Spring) on time and within budget”

    3. ArtK*

      Thanks for the replies. I’ll reconsider what I’ve got in the resume. Two things complicate this for me: First, I *hate* being pigeonholed by whatever I worked on last. I don’t necessarily *want* to work with Java 8, J2EE and Spring in my next project. Second, I don’t put anything in my technology section that I wouldn’t be comfortable using day 1 on a new job. I would have thought that was implied.

      I haven’t done a serious job search in 30 years. This isn’t fun.

      1. k8*

        hm well seeing that you’re really more senior and you’re probably not going for roles where the company is looking for a specific type of engineer or a specific type of experience and are more looking for a breadth of experience of all kinds and a more generalized knowledge of software engineering, it might actually not matter? i’m very junior so i’m not really the person to have insight into this lol but i can definitely see that being the case.

        1. ArtK*

          I wish it were the case that companies are looking for broader experience. I’ve seen job listings all the way up to VP that required very specific experience in certain languages and programs. This is a problem in software these days — people want someone who is ready right now! The joke is that you see job listings requiring 5 years of experience in Program Y, when Y has only been out for 3 years.

          I was turned down for a job because I hadn’t used Apache Spark. This despite the fact that my resume shows that I was one of the early developers of the technology that Spark is based on.

      2. Reba*

        Re: only claiming tech/languages you’re already good at as implied — maybe it should be that way, but it is definitely common practice to just say you can do it (and figure you’ll pick it up on the job). This is likely what the recruiter’s feedback stems from, since she probably regularly has to try to suss out who has actually successfully used delivered something with Go or whatever.

        FWIW Spouse is currently looking and has been interviewing with orgs using a wide range of languages and environments. Whether or not he has direct, recent experience with a particular language is a subject of discussion but certainly does not appear to be pigeon holing him.

    4. k8*

      i’d put them together so people can see how intimately you’ve worked with these programs/etc and put them in context– for instance, I list both React and ImageMagick in my skills section because I’m reasonably experienced and competent in both, but imo it’s important for someone looking at my resume to know that I use React in my day-to-day workflow and ImageMagick in certain specific projects, vs. the other way around.

    5. gecko*

      I’m a software developer and look at resumes for my company. Basically: I would shrink down the competency section significantly and interleave it into your chronological work experience. In my resume I’ve presented a flat comma-separated list of competencies: “C#/ASP.NET, Angular, Java, Spring”, and mentioned them in my work experience section as well. I’ve never done anything more than glance over a list of competencies, and it’d be a bad sign to me if someone skimped on showing their actual work experience in favor of a list that may or may not accurately reflect their real expertise.

      So, like:

      “Full-stack Software Developer at Llama Tech, LLC

      – Delivered X releases of product Y, a Z application with stack ABC

      – Other stuff”

      A list of competencies is not so helpful to me. Even when someone’s applying right out of school, I’d way prefer to see the technologies section folded into a list of coursework or projects.

      I think your recruiter suggested a slightly awkward phrasing, but is actually correct.

    6. Not So Little My*

      I’m a senior dev and I do put the technologies with the specific tasks in addition to the overall skills section. I think it puts them in context, gives an idea of your progression through learning new technologies with different projects, and gives an idea of the depth of your experience in a specific technology. We all have things that are our workhorses that we have deep experience with, as well as the additional technologies we’ve dabbled in or touched not recently. It helps to visualize the difference in a way that a flat list would not do.

      1. Easily Amused*

        I’m a Senior Dev too who has jumped from Web Dev to Native Mobile. I just looked at my resume and I did include the tech that I worked within the experience section. For example:

        Designed and developed new features for one of [company’s] two major software applications. Collaborated with other team members to troubleshoot and develop features in Objective-C, Javascript and PHP.

        But then I also have a sidebar list of the languages/programs that I’ve worked in so they’re all in one spot but don’t take up much room.

        In the past I had my resume listed like you do but I was trying to transition into iOS Development and wanted to convey how my skills have grown in that direction in each position.

        I just started an amazing gig a month ago and this resume organization made it easier to speak to each experience point with the interviewers as they could follow along with my progression.

        Good luck in your job search!

  24. Not a unicorn*

    So I’m just feeling real down about what my future looks like right now. I’m in my late 20s, closing in on 30, and with the exception of one job, have had low paying jobs (as in, not a livable wage, forcing me to still live at home). As I was unemployed for about 5 months since my last contract ended, I’ve accepted a position as customer support where the pay is bad and I’m expected to work weekends on top of it.

    I’m trying to be optimistic and treat it as a “work here until you get hired somewhere better” but I feel my future is looking more and more dire as I don’t even know how to spin customer support into the jobs I really want (project management, community jobs that all require X years of experience in them and which I don’t have). I’m tempted to enroll back in college to get at least an associates, but honestly I don’t want to spend more time in college on a degree that may not end up helping and then be 30, still stuck at home, and still getting paid very little.

    1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      My sympathies. I’m in the same situation and it sucks. Everybody else here stays for a few months and then leaves for much better paid jobs, and I don’t go past first interviews. Maybe I don’t look the part, or they fear that as a part time student I’m not reliable for a full time job.
      It sucks.

    2. OtterB*

      Sympathies. One advantage of being back in college is that they can connect you with internships that get you engaged in the field you want to be in. But some colleges and some programs are much, much better about this than others, so you would need to do due diligence.

      IMO this is a case for a true information interview. If you know people working in the field (personal acquaintances or friends of friends), see if you can talk to them about how they got into it and what kinds of education are most helpful.

      1. cyanste*

        Universities also have student-only jobs that could possibly get your career started in a different area, e.g. help desk, design, library, etc., that are great entry-level positions. Sympathies, OP!

    3. irene adler*

      Look into college programs like project management or public works management. See if you can get a certificate for these programs.
      Certificate = just the coursework for the program. No general ed. courses.

      Check the community colleges and university extension.

    4. AliceW*

      Could you try temp work where you live? I made pretty good money temping. That will get you exposure to many industries where you could get a permanent position and get your foot in the door with a company that may actually pay for your education.

    5. I See Real People*

      You need a technical degree, two years usually, but worth it…radiological technician or HVAC if you like working outdoors. It’s cheap at community college and more than pays the bills as a single person.

      1. Queen of Cans and Jars*

        +1 – Speaking for the ones in my state & the 2 bordering ones, state-run community colleges are generally well-respected, extremely affordable, and offer complete credit transfer to anyone moving on to a state school. Just be choosy about what program (no CNA or other program that’s only going to land you a $10 hour job anyway). If project management jobs are available in your area, go into business or something like that. If not, I’d start with job listings and work backwards. Some jobs are hard to come by depending on where you are, so don’t spend time & money on education in a field that’s too small, or you’re still going to be stuck where you are.

    6. Evil HR Person*

      In my (albeit very specific) experience with project management, you’ll need a degree. The jobs that I know of that pertain to project management are IT and construction. Even with experience, some employers will pass you over for a person with experience AND a degree. Like another commenter said, community college is an excellent and cheap option. There are also PMP (Project Management Professional) certifications that you can study for and get certified, for a fee. Though, I’d like to point out, that someone like me that saw you had a certificate but no degree would wonder why you went for one without the other *shrug*.

    8. Bea*

      This is a difficult place to be in and I’m sorry you’re struggling.

      Certification programs may help. You’ll have to get in on the bottom level to get experience and start the climb towards your end goal. Since you have an end goal that helps to structure yourself though.

      Part of the journey will be internal work. You’re beaten down and bruised ego watching others leave for greener pastures.

      You can do it. You need to work on confidence and marketing yourself. Easier said than done, I know.

      I’m a self made bootstrapper and have faith in you moving forward. It’s work and it’s defeating at times.

      Just remember “don’t cry to give up, cry to keep going.”

    9. OhGee*

      I’m so sorry you’re feeling that way. I will say I don’t think most jobs *should* require a degree, but unfortunately many employers seem to want a degree, even if it’s not related to the job. That decision is up to you, but I do think if you want to work as a project manager, completing a degree will move you in that direction. The thing about having a degree is it says you pursued a complex goal to completion – I wish employers would view high school that way but most do not.

      A hopefully positive anecdote for you: my mom was a waitress until she was about 40. After a bunch of personal struggles, she graduated from nursing school (associates level) when I was 20 and she was about to turn 45 (she’s been an oncology nurse for nearly 20 years now). It was really stinkin’ hard for her – she had undiagnosed cognitive issues that made some of her studies really challenging, but she literally found her calling in her 40s. Which is to say it’s not too late to change directions, pursue more education if you choose to. Heck, I’ve changed careers twice already and I’m almost 40.

        1. OhGee*

          I tell her ALL THE TIME how proud I am of her. Remembering what she went through to get to a great place in her life helps me stay grounded when I’m feeling awful about my own career trajectory.

      2. voluptuousfire*

        Agreed! My friend’s mom finally got to go to college at 45 or so for nursing after working as a home health aide for ages. She also struggled (took her about 5 years to get her associates) but she finally got it and is now making great money. She showed me her (very well earned) paycheck once she finally started her nursing dream job. She was so excited about it!

      3. LJay*

        My mom was younger, but she was a waitress until she was in her mid-30s. After my little brother went to kindergarten she went back to school to become a teacher.

        She got her degree, did some subbing and then a long-term sub job, got a full-time teaching job based off of the long-term sub job, and has been a teacher for over 20 years now. She was named teacher of the year for her district one year and was head of her department for several years.

        While she was teaching she continued taking classes, and got a graduate degree and is now a guidance counselor.

        I really look up to her for this, and especially when I start feeling badly about not being as successful as I think I should be at my age.

    10. Not a unicorn*

      Oh wow, thanks so much for all the encouragement and notes! I forgot to add I do have a bachelors, just not in the field I want to get into now. The temp agencies around here aren’t very helpful, though I found a few more who are hopefully better, will try to contact them soon for help.

      1. Bea*

        For temp agencies. Badger the heck out of them. They’re worthless until your first placement I’ve learned. This is the one time with jobs where you don’t need to allow them to have the upper hand in power. You’re the commodity in this case, not a standard employee.

      2. Cascadia*

        So sorry you’re going through this! If the jobs you want are requiring years of experience, try and see if you can find the entry-level jobs at the same organization and work your way up. I’ve had to do a lot of less than ideal jobs to gain the experience I needed to be more qualified for the jobs I really wanted from the beginning. And honestly, a lot of that experience has been super valuable! Good luck!

      3. OhGee*

        Aha! That’s hard, too, and I understand not wanting to get more schooling. I think some of the advice given here about certifications etc is worth considering. Good luck! Feeling this way sucks, but you’re not alone.

  25. ANON TODAY*

    I work for a small, family-owned cluster of radio stations and work as the morning show host and News Director. Again, family-owned, local programming, lots of high school sports, you get the picture.

    These ARE ISSUES THAT ARE BOTHERING ME!

    We have an intern who, for some reason that I don’t understand b/c our office manager supervises him, is having to make up hours his school requires. So every year at this time, our station partners with 10 or so local businesses and gives a small black backpack with school supplies to all kindergartners at every school, public or private, in our county. Several thousand backpacks. The backpacks have the school year printed on them, plus all of that year’s sponsors. The sponsors change slightly every year so these are completely year specific. That said, we keep the old ones in labeled boxes in the storage room because they come in handy from time to time. So back to the intern. He’s been stuffing backpacks for the past week. Because he needed extra hours, our office manager told him he could come in on Saturday and stuff backpacks if he wanted. He did. Instead of using this year’s backpacks, which were in the same place they have been, stacked on the table, clearly marked, with all the supplies, he dug around the storage room and managed to use backpacks from 2013 and 2016 (again, clearly marked and labeled in a box, in the storage room). He stuffed 19 boxes of wrong backpacks.

    See above about broadcasting local sports and family-friendly radio station. We don’t cuss! Yes, the occasional country song will say damn, but as a rule, we don’t cuss. Except the high school football coach keeps cussing in his sports interviews. We are editing the comments but are going to have to talk to him. It’s an FCC violation waiting to happen.

    1. Beancounter in Texas*

      Sounds like re-stuffing the backpacks will help him meet his make up hours for school.

  26. Bumpjumper*

    First: I’m overthinking this, I know. I received a verbal job offer last Thursday at the end of the day, and I accepted. My new boss said she wouldn’t be turning anything in to HR til Monday (I assume she had the next day off), and that I should hear from them in about a week to get paperwork etc going. It’s Friday morning and I am trying to stay mellow but WHY AREN’T THEY CALLING ME?? For reference, this is an education position, so my workshop week is coming up (still don’t know details on that), and this is also my triumphant return to the world of Contributors To The Gross National Product after 12 years at home with my kids, so I know I’m extra jumpy here. Talk me down, nerds!!

    1. PB*

      It’s incredibly frustrating, but this stage of the hiring process can take forever. Lots of people needing to sign off on things, lots of paperwork. And lots of people are taking vacation around now. You’re probably fine! That said, if you don’t hear anything today, it would be fine to follow up next week, since then you’d be beyond the range they gave you.

    2. k8*

      Lol it’s so annoying, I know. I don’t think there’s any harm in shooting off a quick “Just checking in, lmk if there’s anything you need from me!” email just to calm your own nerves!

  27. Anon anony*

    My coworker mean girls me, blames me for stuff, but will turn around and act like the victim so everyone is on her side. She complains about how people are so mean to her, yet she is! How do I deal?

    1. fposte*

      Do not engage. The closer you get to the drama tornado, the likelier you are to get sucked in. Make sure you are scrupulously nice to her and politely correct her only when necessary. She disses your parking job; it doesn’t matter. She says you were the one who kicked the computer through the window; you say calmly, “Actually, I was out that day.” Just let her complain about people being mean to her–it’s flybuzz background noise.

      1. What's with today, today?*

        She’s generally horrible in a childish, almost bullying, immature way akin to how girls treat each other in junior high and high school.

        1. Jule*

          Mmm. I confess I don’t see how that would be a useful framing in moving beyond unprofessional behavior in the workplace.

              1. Afiendishthingy*

                I disagree, Jule. I understand what kind of behavior WWTT is referring to and I think others do as well.

              2. Bea*

                “Mean girl” isn’t name calling. It’s a reference most people understand and a reference to bullying.

                1. Jule*

                  So why didn’t “bullying” suffice? It was just really important to include that it’s typical feminine behavior?

                2. Courageous cat*

                  Jule, isn’t there a rule about not nitpicking language here? I don’t think this is even a little bit necessary.

      2. KarenK*

        And the worst part about this kind of stuff is it comes completely out of the blue, because you don’t expect it from adults.

        1. Anon anony*

          It’s my fault for using the word- I was typing quickly on my phone and didn’t know how else to describe it. I don’t think it’s as harsh as “bullying”, so maybe “passive-aggressive” is better?

    3. MeganTea*

      Can you call her out in the moment? Ex. “What do you mean by that?” “I’m confused, why would you say that?” “That’s odd, why would you think that?” “I still don’t understand why you would say X, can you explain further?” — using a confused and puzzled attitude, and asking her to further explain herself, so she is the one on the defensive, instead of you.

      Also, are people REALLY on her side, or are they just saying whatever they need to to get her to stop complaining and leave them alone?

    4. Afiendishthingy*

      Document everything. Communicate with her via email when possible if she is blaming you for work-related stuff that she is doing. If it’s affecting your work, don’t be afraid to go to your manager and explain, diplomatically, what’s happening— I would want to be proactive with her.

  28. Folklorist*

    Hi Everyone! It’s your oft-delayed ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!! Go and do something that you’ve been putting off and come back here and brag about it!

    I’ve been meaning to edit down these quotes for WEEKS now, so off we go….

      1. A tester, not a developer*

        You have to train people to $%*&$% ? I always thought that was one of those things that just comes naturally. :)

        1. Amber Rose*

          I actually have a song called Sex Training which has lessons, although they are bad lessons. =P

          That would be more fun than this actual training which is for fire drills and such.

    2. Yorick*

      I’ve needed to re-review some incident reports for a research project for ages, and finally am doing them today

    3. SophieChotek*

      Actually (in terms of work) I’ve had a pretty slow week so I am managing to get several projects that have been sitting on the back burner done.

      I do have one more project that, if I hustle, I might be able to finish today, but I’ve actually accomplished so much (and am just waiting for the weekend to start) that I am having trouble getting to it. Which is pathetic, I know.

    4. Tee*

      I have a paper due in about 11.5 hours and I am trying to get myself to finish it, almost there… just 600-1000 more words needed. Yikes!!

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Man, this is the third time I’ve been scanning the open thread during a break and I hit your post and realize that I need to get back to my homework project. :-P Haven’t been putting it off, exactly, but I wanted to be done yesterday and still have a few hours left to go. So, back to it!

    6. Beancounter in Texas*

      I actually just started some work I’d be ignoring before I got to this post, and admittedly, it feels good that the work is going smoothly… as a I peruse AAM…

    7. Arjay*

      I did the thing I absolutely had to complete today, but that doesn’t really count since I procrastinated as long as humanly possible.

      But then I finished my edits to a document so I could pass that on to the next person, AND sent a stupid email that I’d been putting off for no reason whatsoever.

    9. KAG*

      Finally got my car registration renewed (it expired the end of May)! Also organized my inbox and finally responded or trashed every unread one!!!!!!

      1. Extra Vitamins*

        Ooh! That just reminded me mine is due. AAM is so useful ( in unexpected ways sometimes).

  29. work/life balance myth?*

    I’ve been in the workforce for about 18 years. Every company has had a complicated to completely toxic work environment. Small company vs. large company, retail job vs. office job, it doesn’t seem to matter – management always promotes itself as being fantastic while blaming major issues on the “regular” workers, sometimes to the point of even threatening to fire people for things they have no control over.

    For example, I had manager that said I “sucked” at creating teapot data files and was disappointed that I couldn’t support the team in that area, especially when Gold Star went on leave of absence of 2 months. But when I literally begged for more training, it wasn’t just not provided, I was told to seek outside training to complete “on my own time.” Then I had weekly review meetings with my manager where I was told I was a sh*tty employee because I couldn’t create teapot data files and manager had no idea why I wasn’t doing anything to learn more about this critical skill. O_o

    I also feel like my job is either doing the work of at least 3 people (no, this is not an exaggeration) or I’m super bored and afraid to ask for more work (because of option 1). I’ve worked 60 hour weeks and still felt like I was failing. I’ve “worked from home” and just watched TV all day and felt no guilt/shame whatsoever. It’s always 1 extreme or the other – in 18 years I have very few times felt I was confident in my work and had the resources/time/expectations to do it accurately and on time.

    Does anyone actually work for a company they like? What companies/job fields do people feel actually work with employees to create a work/life balance that favors the employees? What companies/job fields do people feel challenged and busy at, but are not overly chaotic and burnout inducing? Am I just chasing the work/life balance dragon that can never be obtained?

    1. Bea*

      I’ve only had a couple jobs with companies who are terrible because management was a tire fire.

      I’ve been working essentially the same amount of time as you.

      Part of it is having the ability to roll with punches and self train. However I’m frequently brought into situations where training is nonexistent or limited at best. I’m in a position I can reverse engineer things to find out how to create them in terms of reports. That’s been a savior to me.

      I’m in accounting, ops and general business management. But I love it and know that most just do the job because they ended up here somehow.

      Those toxic bosses and companies will murder your self esteem and create issues as well. Have you talked to a therapist? You need to build a fortress around yourself and know when people are unreasonable they are the ones who suck. Not you.

    2. CynicallySweet*

      So I am incredibly lucky in this regard. My company has a really really good work life balance, but you take a hit for that (mostly in the paycheck area). Our benefits are something we’re known for, and frankly they should be. Most of us are out by 5pm Monday through Friday (on Fridays in the summer we get out by 3 but are paid till 5), our maternity and paternity leave is excellent (and we’ve had paternity on the books for about 20 years now), and our health insurance doesn’t totally suck. That said everyone I’ve talked to makes at least 5 grand less than their worth, but have decided the benefits are worth it.

      Manager’s can be hit or miss though. Again I’m really lucky in this regard, but I know people who work for insane micro managing dragons. And some of those dragons won’t EVER lose their jobs because of the institutional knowledge.

      I would look at Glassdoor more than trusting the pitch a company gives you. I can’t say for others, but I find the reviews for the companies I’ve worked for on there to be very accurate.

      I work for a LIHTC Syndication company btw. And from what I can tell, the things above are pretty typical of my industry in general (aka great benefits, low pay, hit or miss management)

    3. Nessun*

      I have worked for the same company for 16 years, and I do love my work. That said, I have worked in different offices and different roles within that company, and sometimes it sucked. I was initially hired in admin because a particular chair needed to be filled by someone who could breathe and hit the power button on a computer, and I accepted the role because I needed to get away from a horrible retail position (got held up at gunpoint…anything had to be better!).

      Once I was hired, I quickly got bored, so I put my hand up for any piece of whatever department I could have. Three years later, got voluntold I was being promoted from my boring job into something using the skills I’d learned, which was great. And over the next five years I learned that my boss was a crazy woman who would smile one day and breathe fire the next. That was a bumpy ride, but my solution was to look for other opportunities within the company – found one, moved, and never looked back. Eight years of admin work with the new opportunity, and it’s been awesome. I’m still in admin, though much more senior now, and the team I work for is amazing.

      I felt bored in that first role, burned out and useless sometimes in that middle role, but now – love it. Challenged and happy, and I do feel I have good work/life balance. Working for a large company helps (public accounting), but I have had to fight for some of it – some departments are better than others at enforcing work/life balance policies that are already in place, and some of my bosses have been better than others. Basically: within the company I work for, I’ve got opportunities for great work/life but I’ve had to seize them myself where I could, even though they technically exist for all. Not ideal, but it’s worked out for me.

    4. Toxic Waste*

      +1 I don’t have an answer, just sympathies because I was considering writing a post similar to yours. I’ve been in extremely toxic, co-dependent, dysfunctional environments for the past 3+ years and it seems like there is no way out and that *every* single place I work at will be like this. Good gosh, I hope that there is a light at the end of that tunnel for you and others who are in bad environments.

    5. A username for this site*

      Consider yourself lucky all people did was insult your work. I’ve worked in places where your personality is fair game. Woe betide you if you’re focused on your collating and don’t say hi to someone when they walk past the copy machine, that’ll be a Meeting about how you’re hostile and unfriendly and no one likes you.

      1. Heathers*

        Do you work at my company? Seriously… they care more about socializing than they do about the work. You could do the best work ever and it doesn’t matter. If I don’t smile and act like a cheerleader, they think something is wrong or that I hate them, so then they “punish” me by not talking to me. As in going out of their way to say hi to everyone except me. It sucks.

  30. peachie*

    I’m going through a very I-don’t-want-to-work phase. What do you do when you’re feeling that way but want to be more productive? My work performance isn’t suffering, but I want to be working harder and doing more, and it’s taking me a lot of effort to do the boring parts of my job. (I do have ADHD, but it’s well-managed.)

    1. irene adler*

      Need to find an activity that is outside the normal routine. Said activity ‘wakes’ one up to a new appreciation for being engaged in the regular work tasks.

      The activity might be a short vacation, or an outside of work activity. Or even taking on a task at work that is outside of one’s comfort zone.

    2. Tara S.*

      Lists! Specifically, small lists. I have a big to-do board in Trello, but it helps me to physically write a post-it each day with the 2-3 things I want to get done that day. It helps me get through the things that need to get done but are not on fire.

    3. Meow Yorker*

      I’m in the same phase and I’ve been in and out of this phase many times! Sometimes I find going out for a quick walk helps reset my brain. I haven’t found a great solution that always works, though. Especially when I don’t have an engaging project or two, it can get hard to focus!

    4. OhGee*

      I struggle with this, too. Like Tara S. said, lists help. But I’ve also been meditating and trying to spend less time on social media – both have helped me feel more relaxed and focused on work.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I’ll find something that needs doing, but doesn’t take up a lot of mental capacity. Like Photoshopping or looking for stock photos, or cleaning up/archiving files and listen to music while I do it. Or maybe watch a training webinar or video for an hour or two.

      Generally, I will feel like this when I’m procrastinating about a harder task, or when I’ve finished something difficult and just need some time to decompress before moving on to next project.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Make sure you are getting good amounts of rest. OTH, perhaps you would benefit from walking. Rest/exercise can help give us the energy to plow through some stuff.

      Watch your self-talk. Take pride in being able to do boring tasks over and over. It takes strength to do that. Seriously. Not everyone can do the same thing over and over. Ask anyone who has a spouse or a roommate who does not pick up after themselves. It does take strength to do the same thing repeatedly.

      One thing I have done with boring tasks is to look for ways to make the task take less time. It’s really the only way I can get through some things. Some tasks I have to wait for a particular point in the day because of how information is collected, this saves time because I do the task once a day rather than three times a day. Other tasks I can teach myself keyboard short cuts.

      And with other tasks, I promise myself a reward such as doing a non-sitting task. I hate sitting so I can plow through something quicker if I know I will go do X next which involves standing/walking. Perhaps you have a task that gives you a sense of accomplishment. You can put a less desirable task first then do the one that gives you satisfaction.

  31. Anonforthis*

    I’m considering a career change – from admin assistant at a university (which I just kind of fell into) to being a high school teacher. I live in Ontario Canada, so this involves two more years of university, so it’s a fairly big commitment. Thoughts from other teachers or career changers? Is it worth it?

    1. AnonBluenose*

      What’s the employment situation for teachers like in Ontario right now? I know Nova Scotia is brutal – there are a lot more incoming teachers than there are places, and from what I’ve heard it can take years to even get a slot on the subs list.

      1. Quaggaquagga*

        Yeah, the job market for teachers in Ontario right now is really tight, unless your teachable is French.

        1. Baby Fishmouth*

          It is indeed French!
          Also, it’s opened up more than people think – every teacher I know who has graduated teachers college in the last 3-4 years already has a permanent position, regardless of teachables. My SIL only spent 1 year on an LTO list before getting permanent.

        3. Humble Schoolmarm*

          Since you have French, you might do well. Where I am, (a province mentioned in this thread but not Ontario) we had a major French teacher shortage this year to the point that they were recruiting internationally. That being said, when I started my BEd in 2007 the job forecast looked rosy and when I finished in ’09… (Caveat: I did have French, though and worked in long term positions from the day I graduated. I was incredibly lucky).

          To your larger question, teaching has amazing moments. 98% of my co-workers are lovely, dedicated , unique people as are 80-85% of the students and families I work with. The downsides are that those 20-15% percent can take all you have. There is very little (I might even say no) downtime. You have to take work home at least some of the year. Your to-do list is never finished and work-life balance is something that you have to fight for (and teacher guilt is very real). Another challenge for me is that teaching is so politicized (see the current health curriculum debate) and many people have Very Strong Opinions and 0 understanding of how schools are working in 2018.

    2. A Teacher*

      Been there (Athletic trainer to teacher). For me, yes it was worth it. That said, and I’m in the States, there are a lot of changes in education and many of them are not great. Pay is fairly stagnant in my area, and the expectations placed on the role can be pretty unrealistic.

      I enjoy my students and what I teach and I like a lot of coworkers so that is a nice balance.

    3. A tester, not a developer*

      I’m in SW Ontario, and a lot of the teachers I know are working as subs – if they’re lucky they do a mat leave infill.

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      If you’re willing to relocate, AB and BC are hiring quite a lot right now. In AB especially, and French is always a hot commodity.

  32. Nervous Accountant*

    In other random my boss is “so and so and will not change”-news:

    1. I had a sex dream about coworker. Ewww. (not boss related but I had to get this OMC).

    2. Boss is micromanaging our celebrations now. “Where’s the envelope? We should be contributing more $. Why does it say “did not give” instead of “will give”? GTFOH.

    3. Who TF gives someone a hard time for going on vacation, esp after 3 LONG years?? My boss… to my manager. that’s who. (Yes I’m freaking out above that he’ll be gone but he works his ass off and deserves this time off!)

    4. More of a vent that’s not boss related–I was/am so angry and hurt. Can’t get in to details and context and open myself up to criticism either but I am so damn exhausted. I’m overthinking a stupid joke by this dumbass. I’m mad at myself for getting mad, sad and hurt for reasons. I’m not bad at my job I swear. I thought things got better the higher you go, but sadly IME it doesn’t. I’m just not part of that silly HS-esque clique. What a crappy week it’s been and what a crappy week coming up.

    1. Icontroltherobots*

      I am here for you! You’re working too much/have too much stress and are encouraged to just bottle it up and push down those feeling and POWER THROUGH IT. You can decompress later, but later never comes.

      If it’s THE JERK – he’s a jerk and you need to work on your withering stare. If the jokes inappropriate ask him to explain it and just look confused. keep going with “I don’t understand” see what horrible hole he’ll dig.

      they don’t get better, but at least you get a COOL title to sport around. Manager – senior manager – director and then you get to go into debt and become a PARTNER!

      It’ll be November in no time :)

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I help run our team, I do the managerial shit he doesn’t want to do and the guy in a room Full
        Of people says “chandler joey Ross Gunther and Russ and I run the team”…..WTF about me asswipe.

        1. Icontroltherobots*

          when all the returns have been filed and Q3 provision is done? Please tell me you also have this magical time where there is NOTHING going on.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Oh yes deadlines are done. But then we’re gearing up for the new season. As well as hiring. Summer is our traditional slow time but it’s been crazy w training on new software and procedures etc.

  33. The Ginger Ginger*

    Had a C-suite exec tell me “good job, kid” after a meeting I ran yesterday. I am literally 34 years old. My feelings, they were mixed.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Oooh. I totally get the mixed feelings.

      On one hand, yay, the C-suite recognizes your contributions. On the other hand, you are not a kid.

      Is this person old enough to be your grandparent? I know that’s really not a good excuse, but it could be a verbal quirk.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        No, only about 10-15 years older than me. I’m also new to the team that ran the meeting, but NOT the company (6 years), and a woman, so it just felt….not awesome? I know he meant it as an “attaboy”, but I kind of just wanted to grimace. Sigh.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      “Thanks, grandma/grandpa.”

      Or perhaps not.

      Super annoying though. Might be one of those language quirks – I grew up in a place where I was called “love” a lot just as a consequence of where I lived. Everyone was called “love” – men, women, children, pigs.

      Still, I’d have mixed feelings too.

      1. Quill*

        Lol. Grew up in the midwest, but “sweetheart” is usually used on people’s dogs and kids where I live, often to get them to calm down.

    4. CynicallySweet*

      Ohhh I feel so hard for you right now!! There’s a top level exec at my company who calls me numbers girl (as in this is Beth’s new numbers girl). On the one hand, yay recognition from someone crazy high up. On the other, number girl, really?! It’s numbers woman thank you very much! (he’s really old and can’t remember anyone’s names, almost everyone he mentions has a description instead of a name)

    5. Woman of a Certain Age*

      I used to get annoyed when people called me “young woman.” But it stopped, about in my middle 40s. I kind of miss it.

    6. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      No joke, I was once referred to as a whippersnapper by my CEO, I think he’s only 10 years older than me.

      The context was I walked in a conference call my boss at the time was on. CEO is on the phone “… yeah this a big problem, give to the Sara(h)s* Let the whippersnapper problem solvers figure out how to make it work” My boss went on mute and laughed and said “Well you know what you’ll be working on this quarter… now get out of here and get busy you whippersnapper!” Yeah, she is only about 10 years, if that, older than me too, and for reference I had already seen the 4-0 come and go.

      * There were two of us who where both managers in the same team our names were Sara and Sarah (Not really our names, but you get the idea) we were the only 2 people in our company with that name, so there wouldn’t have been anyone else he was referring to.

    7. Afiendishthingy*

      My awful coworker at my last job regularly addressed me and the other two women in our department as “kids” or “girls.” “Hey kids!” Or “Hi girls!” when she waltzed into the office. She even once referred to us as “the girls” to a third party (“The girls ordered lunch but I brought mine today!”). Awful coworker was in her early 50s and all of us girls were in our early to mid 30s. Not coincidentally she constantly tried to micromanage all of us despite being our peer.

      So yeah I feel you.

    8. KarenK*

      I’ve got to say that my most favorite boss I’ve every had called me kid, and he was younger than me.

      Made me feel all warm and fuzzy.

    9. Bea*

      The only person to call be “kid” was a slimeball logistics rep. So I’m frowning deeply here. They need to update their lingo at best.

  34. Fenchurch*

    Yesterday I had a lunch meeting with my grandboss to discuss some major issues facing my team. Some of it leaned towards “my boss is kind of terrible” including just checking to see whether in my new role as a specialist I should expect less professional development. Her eyebrows shot up at some of the things I shared with her. So now, I wait.

    We were supposed to be expanding my team by another person (it’s only 2 people now), but sadly the candidate management liked rejected their offer. It’s probably for the best, as our current situation is borderline toxic and has been crazy tumultuous.

    I have an interview with a different company next week. Here’s hoping there are better days ahead, one way or another.

  35. Mbarr*

    Hey, 2 questions for the community:
    1. I’m updating my resume. I just removed a bunch of extraneous useless lines of data, and now my resume is 1.5 pages long. I can’t pare it down to 1 page, but should I update the formatting to stretch out the resume to fill both pages? e.g. Making fancier section heads, etc.?
    2. I’d like advice about questions to ask during interviews. My last job, I quit because I was so frustrated at the slow pace of the company, all my work felt wasted because no one was being forced to use the software that I was hired to administer. Now, I’m looking to leave my current job because the role has changed so much that I don’t enjoy the work anymore. (I’m doing nothing from my original job description.) What kinds of questions would you ask to make sure I don’t encounter the same issues? Here’s my list so far.
    – Tell me more about the role.
    – Who does this role report to?
    – What do you foresee as the challenges of this role?
    – How would you describe the company culture?
    – What’s one thing you would change about the company/team if you could?

    1. Tara S.*

      Have you read Alison’s free interview prep guide? I got some good questions out of there. (link in sidebar)

    2. wingmaster*

      -What do you like about your job/your company?
      -Where have successful employees previously in this position progressed to?
      -Where do you see this company in 5 years?
      -What other departments would I be working with?

    3. BRR*

      I’m leaning towards keeping it at 1.5 pages. I personally might find it a negative if it seemed like it could have been shorter. As I typed that last sentence out, I realized that would likely not be a deal breaker on its own as long as the formatting wasn’t ridiculous.

    4. Evil HR Person*

      Don’t worry about making your resume fit into one page. Most of the time resumes look to be only one page in the applicant tracking systems anyway, and I’d rather see that all the relevant information was included than not. That said, make sure all the relevant information IS included for the position that you’re applying. If you had a stint as, say, a server at a restaurant, and now you’re applying for llama groomer, it’s okay to not list the duties for the server position – since we all know what they entail and they’re taking up valuable real estate on your resume. Otherwise, leave it as a page and a half.

    5. nep*

      Re resume length–it depends on the industry and company/organisation. Is there any way you could find out what is seen as acceptable there?
      I once heard a UNICEF HR person say: “I won’t even look at a resume that’s only one page.”

      1. Mbarr*

        Interesting. I’m applying for jobs in the tech industry. The problem is that I’ve held so many random roles in my companies that it’s hard to capture all the main achievements of the random stuff I’ve done.

        1. nep*

          I think best to just go through it ruthlessly, taking out any bullet point that is not totally and absolutely relevant to the job in question. If it still turns out to be 1.5 pages, so be it.

  36. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    Has anyone ever moved to another city before finding a job there? How did that go for you?

    1. Tara S.*

      Yes, and it was anxiety inducing. I was not too far in my career, so I just applied to everything I could see (I know, not the best move). But even though the job I ended up in didn’t pay all that well, it helped me realize where I’d like to grow my career. Just…plan for it to take some time. The first time I was job searching was fluke where it only took 1 month to find a job. Moving across the country on a whim, it took me three months to find a job, and not a specialized job, and entry-level one. I’m hoping to find a job before I move back to the coast next year, but I know out of state candidates are at a disadvantage so we’ll see how long I last before I just go back.

    2. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      Yes. It was extremely nerve-wracking. I’m a pretty anxious person in general, and being unemployed in a totally new city took me to an 11. HOWEVER, it was ultimately a good choice for me, as within 6 months, I had a good job. I would do research on cost of living (rent, transportation, etc) because I moved from a low COL city/state to one that has been exploding over the last decade or so.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Yes, with the caveat that I had family in the new city that I could live with before I got settled. I was unemployed for maybe two months before I got placed in a temp-to-perm position, and man my credit card took a hit during that time. (I admit that I was not particularly fiscally responsible, though. Oh, youth!)

    4. Bea*

      I’m the only one in my circle who gets a job before moving. Everyone else seems to dive in unprotected. I’ve never had anyone end up in shambles but I’ve seen the stress eat at each one.

      It’s often seen as easier to find a job if you’re in the city already. I had a few hiccups getting jobs prior to moving, lots of times out of town resumes are trashed and your options are then limited.

    5. Jack Be Nimble*

      In May, I moved from a medium-sized city in the Midwest to a medium-sized (and more expensive) city on the east coast without any solid job prospects. Before I left, I’d been in contact with staffing agencies and was able to temp while I job-hunted. I moved in with my partner and had a couple grand in savings before I left, so I was able to coast along for a while. I’m still job-hunting, but have a second interview and a couple more phone screens next week, so!

    6. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Yep, and I would absolutely never do it again unless I had a VERY GOOD financial cushion. The only reason I don’t consider it one of the worst decisions of my life is that the alternative at the time was even worse. It took me four months to find a full-time job and surviving til then was awful.

    7. LDP*

      I did this about two years ago! I knew I wanted to leave my hometown, and after spending 6 months applying for jobs remotely and only getting one interview, I finally packed up and moved to where I wanted to be. I do have family in the area, and I was able to live with them, but it took me a few months to find a job. This was right after I had graduated from college, so it was just about getting my foot in the door for a local job before it got a lot easier.

    8. Chaordic One*

      It went O.K. I stayed in a motel for 2 weeks before I found a decent apartment. I had to have my parents sign an agreement with the apartment management company saying that they’d agree to cover the rent if I couldn’t, which was really annoying since I didn’t have a job at the time. I started temping right away, but it wasn’t consistent and I had to dig into my savings before I found a decent full-time job with benefits which took about 3 months from when I moved.

    10. A username for this site*

      Yes! Three times; trailing spouse. I ended up taking low quality jobs that prevented me from advancing, and in some cases, the jobs fell apart and ended shortly because I wasn’t able to properly evaluate red flags in the company before taking the job, or I felt obligated to take the job to at least have a job.

    11. Anonymosity*

      I did it once, long ago. I stayed with friends and found a crappy job right away. Then I moved in with friends, but that was a less-than-ideal situation since there were three of us in one room (!!). I eventually found a better place to live. Four years later, I left, but not for job reasons; I wanted to go back to school and thought it would be easier to do it back home.

      I don’t think I could swing it again unless I were moving in with a partner, or had a ton of money. But it might be easier to find a job once you’re there.

    12. KAG*

      I’ve moved to different states many times for a lot of jobs. After this past debacle, I quit and am stuck in Arkansas for the time being. I’ve vowed to move next time to a place I like before looking for employment.

      Granted, I do have a bit of a cushion financially, so I’m fortunate enough to do this.

    13. Hamburke*

      I did right out of college. I wanted to go to grad school out of state so moved to get residency and had a part time at home freelance job that turned me off of freelance in how sporatic it was and how little communication I received (I’m sending you something new via FedEx, let me know when you get it and we’ll go over what I need done…cue crickets for a week after the package arrived even though I left a VM and email daily only to get a where is the new project email…) but was a bit of income.

      2 months after I moved, I ended up getting a full time job that I interviewed for a couple months prior to moving – I only found out because I got a call from a recruiter who wanted to place me there and I said I had interviewed but hadn’t heard back so she called (I had sent a thank you immediately and followed up a couple weeks later with an email but they were still interviewing and said they would let me know – new to the job market, I believed they would let me know). It ended up being far away from where I moved but not so far as to be out of the range of commuting. I might do it again single with savings but wouldn’t do it with a family.

  37. Snark*

    I’m one module deep in government purchase card training that’s supposed to take 12 hours. Whatever you’re doing today, I just hope it’s not wall-punching boring.

    2. hermit crab*

      I guess that explains why, when I worked on federal contracts, our clients preferred to have us buy things for them to and just charge it to the contract!

      I recently started a job at a 501(c)(3) and had “lobbying compliance training” this week, but at least it was only two hours long, and there were snacks.

    4. Not All Who Wander*

      If it’s any consolation, it’s highly unlikely it will take you the full 12-hrs. Granted, I’ve had to take it multiple times (every time I change agencies but keep my purchase card authority) so I’m not actually learning anything new but I don’t think it’s ever taken me more than half a day.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Time estimates are usually BS. I just completed a course where one part of it was supposed to take 12 hours, and that took 45 min. The part that was estimated to take 2 hours took me freakin’ 12 hours! At least I knew that from experience, but I seriously have no idea where the estimates come from.

      Glad you’re done!

  38. formerfrontdesk*

    Sorry guys, this is kinda long.

    I used to work the front desk at a privately-owned hotel in a larger franchised corporation. At this hotel, half of the rooms are noticeably nicer (and likely in better repair) than the others, due to recent renovations. In an effort to keep the ‘good’ rooms nice, my former employer placed tight controls on who received a ’good’ room based on criteria I have concerns about.

    It isn’t uncommon for hotels to keep a closer eye on guests from the same town as the hotel (‘locals’), through measures like keeping a list of ‘repeat offenders’, working with local law enforcement, or just keeping a special look out for disruptive or criminal behavior. What my former management did went beyond that. Not only did management had a much broader definition of ‘local’, but they used where the guest came from to determine whether the guest could stay in one of the ‘good’ rooms. Management defined a ‘local’ as anyone checking in with a driver’s license from our state, as well as certain areas of a neighboring state (Ex: If the hotel was in Pennsylvania, all Pennsylvanians would be barred from the renovated rooms, but while New Yorkers from NYC would be eligible for a renovated room, guests arriving from, say, Buffalo or Rochester would not).

    Front desk was instructed to only place ‘locals’ in the un-renovated rooms. This was accomplished by screening people by driver’s license before front desk would say whether or not there was a room available. If a ‘local’ came in and there were only un-renovated rooms available, I was explicitly told to turn the person away by lying that we were at capacity or didn’t have the type of room they were looking for. This made scheduling phone or online reservations nerve-wracking, especially toward the end of the shift, when more rooms were taken. During my training, I reserved a ‘good’ room for a guest coming in, as none of the un-renovated rooms were available. When the guest came in, his driver’s license showed he was a ‘local’; the woman training me made me tell him that there was a mistake and that we were not actually able to give him a room. Once they had a room, ‘locals’ were watched and documented in ways that out-of-state guests weren’t; to use the pool, they had to provide a list of people who would be swimming and sign a pool agreement concerning behavior. The woman training me corrected me after I asked an out-of-state guest to sign one of those.

    It is my observation that the demographics of ‘local’ guests were different compared to out-of-state guests. A disproportionate percentage of the ‘locals’ were minorities (African-American, Hispanic, members of a local Native tribe) and the out-of-state guests were more often white. The man I had to turn away after he reserved a room was a young African-American man in the military.

    When I initially reported this to the parent company, the person I talked to said my former workplace’s policies were far outside the norm, and respected my request to remain anonymous. They sent a report of our conversation up to the legal team. My next calls were… different. I was told my complaint couldn’t proceed until I gave them my real name. I was told my full name, email, and home address(!) would be on the copy of complaint given to my manager. That’s unacceptable to me; I’m still jobsearching in the industry, and that opens me up to retaliation. Additionally, the rep I spoke to said ‘You know, hotels are allowed to choose who they can and can’t accommodate’ and ‘it’s not like [an employee] was hurt on the job’.

    I’m sorry, this is a very long-winded way of asking if my former workplace’s policies were unusually stringent. I was pretty uncomfortable with what they asked me to do, and I want to do right by the people who were turned away after being promised a room thanks to my workplace’s policies. Hospitality folks, do your hotels have similarly broad guidelines about who counts as a local, and were you asked to turn someone away even if they booked a room online?

    1. Emmie*

      I am not in hospitality. The investigation they are conducting is not up to my standards. It’s possible for a manager to maybe guess who made the complaint, but I strongly disagree with their requirement to disclose your name to the manager. The other items you listed in the disclosure request are far outside of the norm.
      I understand a policy about limiting facilities use by local residents to discourage bringing in unaccounted guests, or limiting use to guests only. That definition of a local guest is far overreaching in the way you described it. Why not do a mileage limit like 60 miles from the hotel?! How horrible for the guest you spoke of to be turned away. I’m glad you reported it. You have to ask yourself if it’s worth it to participate in the investigation under these terms. Also, can you report it to another entity? I wonder if the complaint was made to the enterprise owning it (I.e. Smith brother’s hotel group) or the larger hotel brand (Holiday Inn, Sheraton, etc….). Consider making one to the other group. If that doesn’t work, I imagine that the NAACP or the ACLU May be interested in this information, but you may wish to tell them after you leave.

      1. formerfrontdesk*

        I’m sorry, I should have specified that I no longer work there. My complaint was made to the larger hotel brand, and the owners only own this one hotel in the area to the best of my knowledge. Thank you so much for your advice.

      2. LJay*

        Or a rule for everyone that you may only have the hotel guests plus one additional person (or whatever) in the pool facilities, and that anyone violating that will be asked to leave the pool area?

        Having the pool be for hotel guests only is a pretty normal policy. Assuming people will violate the rule because they live nearby, rather than dealing with it when it happens, is not normal.

        Like, people who live more than 60 miles away may be visiting the area because they know people in the area. So why are they any less likely to try and sneak guests in?

        1. formerfrontdesk*

          That’s what I thought the pool policy was at first, until the woman training me corrected me when I gave a pool agreement to someone from out-of state. I thought blanket use of pool agreements were much more sensible.

    2. JustaCPA*

      Not in the industry but I can tell you that this practice is a lawsuit form the EEOC waiting to happen.

      1. formerfrontdesk*

        The thing is, I’m not sure about that. Hotels have a lot of latitude to decide who does or doesn’t get a room.

        1. Jessie the First (or second)*

          Hotels do have to abide by anti-discrimination laws. They do not have the latitude to enforce their own version of separate but equal.

          A hotel policy that mysteriously turns away minority customers with lies about the hotel being at capacity, and that reserves its nice rooms for white patrons and allows minority customers only in its run-down rooms is going to get itself into a lot of trouble some day (hopefully some day soon).

          1. formerfrontdesk*

            I’m concerned a regulatory agency would consider the driver’s license policies a sufficient smokescreen. I know [CERTAIN STATE’S DRIVER’S LICENSE] isn’t a protected class. My observations could be perceived as merely a correlation, instead of the intended outcome.

            1. LJay*

              But it doesn’t matter what the intended outcome is. It matters what the actual outcome is.

              If it adversely affects minority customers, it is a problem and it is illegal, even if they claim that they did not intend for it to work like that.

              1. formerfrontdesk*

                I agree with you. I’m sorry, I should have been more specific; what I meant was that I wasn’t sure my observations met any threshold of proof in a legal sense.

              2. Courageous cat*

                Yeah of course, but is the law going to see it that way? That’s the concern. The actual outcome is indeed pretty fucked up but lots of fucked up things get through the legal system.

        2. Emmie*

          Not in this racial discriminatory manner in my opinion. There’s actually on sold Supreme court case called Heart of Atlanta (if I remember correctly.). This could violate the Civil Rights Act in some way. This is outside of my law practice, so I defer to the experts. I co-sign on the EEOC contact.

      2. BlueWolf*

        Agreed. I’m not a lawyer, but I have a basic understanding of discrimination law and from the description, this could definitely get the hotel in hot water. Even if the intent is not to discriminate against certain races (giving them the benefit of the doubt here, which I’m not sure they deserve), if the end result is that you are denying accommodation or requiring different rules only for people of certain races, that is a big problem and a discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen.

      3. zora*

        Yeah, this might be jumping the gun, but with the corporate office being so inappropriate, I would be considering going straight to the EEOC on this one. Or if you have any state or local agency that handles discrimination and human rights issues.

        1. formerfrontdesk*

          Thank you for answering one of my unstated questions. This is my first time reporting something, so I wasn’t sure how normal it was to have to put my name on the complaint for it to go forward. The home address requirement seemed unusual from the get-go.

          1. zora*

            No, that’s bad. A good company would be willing to take your report as anonymous (or keep it very, very confidential) at least to start, and would use it as impetus to start a real investigation. If they then found no corroboration, there might be reason to come back to you and say, we can’t verify this, if you want us to act on it, we need to use your name. But to do that at the very beginning and ask for so much of your info to be attached to the complaint is very very sketchy.

    3. LJay*

      I worked in a hotel and this sounds crazy to me and possibly illegal.

      Our owners were shady. (We were required to have two rooms available at the parent-company employee rate. But the owner just kept them reserved in his own name, and had us only remove the reservations he had on them if we were otherwise sold out to fill with full-price customers, or right before we ran end of night which would have billed him for them.)

      But since this seems to be having a disproportionate effect on members of a protected class, it sounds pretty illegal to me. And hotels *aren’t* allowed to choose who they can and can’t accommodate when the criteria is discriminatory based on a protected class.

      We had no rules based on locals at all. I have seen this with rental cars, but never even heard of it with hotels. And with rental cars I think it was because they thought someone who lived close by was more likely to rent the car and then never return it so they required extra documentation or an extra deposit? No idea why. But that’s not even something that can happen with a hotel room.

      We had no guidelines as to who we could or could not rent to, other than that they had to have a credit card we could authorize or they had to pay a cash deposit, and that was true of everyone regardless of where they came from. And if we saw or suspected illegal behavior we were to call the cops – again, no matter where they were from.

      I would go past your company and report this to a relevant government agency.

      1. formerfrontdesk*

        Thank you, it means a lot to me to hear this from another hospitality worker. Another front desk person I talked to about this said this policy was perfectly within the hotel’s rights and implied that my concern was misdirected.

        My front desk job before this one had no ‘locals’ rules either.

    4. Evil HR Person*

      Here’s the thing, though: the EEOC won’t get involved because the hotel is not discriminating against employees or applicants (unless it is, and that’s a separate issue). EEOC stands for Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, and the guests are not employees. So the EEOC would make note of it and then close the case – that’s not the right course of action. Unfortunately, I don’t work in hospitality either and so I don’t know what non-discrimination rules/laws would apply. If I were a guest or potential guest and was denied equal treatment, then I’d call a lawyer and get advice. Since you’re not the guest – and you did what any sensible person would do and reported it within the corporation – I don’t know if there’s anything else you could do. If you feel up to it, you could talk to the counsel and give them your information – THEN any retaliation against you would, indeed, become an EEOC case, and a highly winnable one at that! But I don’t recommend it.

      1. zora*

        Yeah, I was worried about this with the EEOC, since it’s not employees being discriminated against. But maybe they could tell you if there is any other recourse?

        And that’s why I also mentioned other local bodies that deal with discrimination. Like, Portland, Oregon has a municipal Office of Equity and Human Rights, which might have a mechanism, or at least advice.

        Unfortunately, I’m worried that, as Evil HR said, the only way to escalate would be for the customers to bring a law suit, but they obviously don’t know this is happening. :( But that’s why if it was me, I would contact a few places first to see if there is anything I don’t know about or get advice. And then, if not, I’d have to give up. But this is super super depressing, I’m sorry you are dealing with this and that people are the worst.

        The only other option I can think of is to go to the media, but that is obviously the nuclear option and it would be hard to not have your name attached, and it’s a crap shoot whether they would actually care or it would go anywhere.

        1. formerfrontdesk*

          I’ve been looking into local organizations, but I’m not getting very far. I’m trying to get in touch with my former manager from my previous front desk position to see what she has to say.

      2. formerfrontdesk*

        Yeah, that’s what I thought. I’ve been looking into hospitality industry-specific resources, but I haven’t had much luck.

        1. Combinatorialist*

          But it seems like you could contact the ACLU and the NCAAP and if it bothers them, they could set up being discriminated against and then work it through the legal process.

          I feel like all this policy does is make it harder for people to find temporary housing. Oh, you have a local driver’s license and need a room because you are fleeing an abusive situation, or are homeless, or whatever. We aren’t going to give you a room. That is extremely shady

    6. MissDisplaced*

      “The man I had to turn away after he reserved a room was a young African-American man in the military.”

      How much you wanna bet that hotel chain proudly brags about how they support our military.
      Until their racist policies kick in, that is.

    7. Lulubell*

      Can you send an anoymous tip to the local paper/newstation and have them do some digging? That may only work if the hotel is not an advertiser (which, if they don’t want locals, they are probably not).

  39. Roseberriesmaybe*

    If 340 people make it through the first round of psychometric testing for a job, what does that indicate about how many they are planning to hire. I know that number is likely to be reduced a lot by the 2nd round of testing and interviews- but it seems like a lot of people to bring forward if the place ultimately only hires 10 applicants. If anyone involved in hiring could be weigh in on this, I’d really appreciate it

    1. Tara Raboomdeay*

      I don’t think you have enough information to know how many people they are planning to hire. (I know that ‘s not very helpful to hear.) Actually, it might not be all that unusual if out of all those people, only 10 or so don’t drop out and manage to make it through additional testing.

      In my last misadventure we were told by the head of H.R. that there had been over 300 applicants for a combination data processing and data entry job. They eliminated the unqualified and invited 180 people for initial job testing. 120 of those people passed the testing and were invited to an initial group informational interview. Only 60 people showed up at the group interview and all were offered jobs. The head of H.R. claimed that he would have hired all 60 if they had accepted. 19 people accepted the offer and showed up for 2 weeks of training. 1 person dropped out after a week and then 2 more people were eliminated (including myself) when they couldn’t pass a productivity test after 2 weeks of training. So out of more than 300 applicants they ended up with 16 employees who are on probation and who will be re-evaluated in 6 months.

      You had to be able to process 25 transactions per minute with a lower than 2% rate of accuracy with a very ancient, clunky and awkward to use proprietary computer system . (I got close, 24 per minute with lower than 3% accuracy, but that wasn’t good enough.) It was very stressful trying to meet those standards and I may have dodged a bullet.

      The job did pay quite well and had some benefits, but was not permanent and you couldn’t count on having regular hours. There was mandatory overtime, but if there wasn’t enough work, your hours could be reduced or you could even be let go at any time.

      Of course, the employer began advertising the position again even before I completed the 2 weeks of training. It’s one of those jobs where people who don’t get let go, quit all the time and the position seems to be advertised almost all the time, too.

      1. Roseberriesmaybe*

        That was really helpful, thank you! And yeesh, that job sounds really stressful :/ The job I mentioned is also working with data

  40. Justin PBG*

    A long-term project (a training course I developed) hit its pilot stage (like a TV show, where it’s retooled if need be) Monday and it went extremely well. It was a project I was worried about, but it’s good news for me and my performance, and a good internal boost for me as I become a student again, too. Managers had a meeting with our main clients, and my course was the biggest news on their agenda to share.

    (nonwork: I got my syllabi and the material doesn’t seem as hard as I was scared of, so it’s all around good news this week.)

  41. MechanicalPencil*

    Has anyone ever heard of the WomenHack recruiting event? I got an invite to one in my area, but I’ve never seen it before, nor am I sure how I came to their attention. I’ve also never heard anyone mention it. Not sure if it’s a legit thing or some sort of weird scam. Thanks!

    1. Beancounter in Texas*

      I got one too, to my personal email that I don’t share online, so I suspect it was culled from LinkedIn. I ignored it.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        That’s where mine went — only it went to the PERSONAL personal email. Not the email I have associated with LinkedIn. I’m even more confused.

        1. Beancounter in Texas*

          Out of curiosity, I opened it and scrolled to the Unsubscribe; Eventbrite Inc. sent the email. The name sounds familiar, but I can’t pinpoint when I would have given them my email, but it seems less likely that it was bought from a list. *shrugs*

    3. Gumby*

      I have been invited (and no, I have no idea how they got my email address either) and went. It is totally legit. You don’t have to give anything beyond your name and email address (which they already have) to register.

      It’s a networking / job fair type of thing but for women in tech. When you show up there’s some snacks and mingling, then some of the sponsoring companies have a representative say some stuff about their company, then you can go around and talk to reps from various companies. Bring copies of your resume. The one I attended was a little crowded, but still worth it IMO.

  42. Gandalf the Nude*

    So, weird problem. How do you control physical signs of nervousness when in your head you don’t feel nervous at all? This is a thing I’ve done as long as I can remember. Inwardly, I’m totally chill, but simultaneously, my face flushes and my hands shake. The shaking part is extra not helped by the fact that most offices are too cold for my comfort.

    I don’t have to worry about this too often, but I’m about to schedule a second round interview for a job I’m really excited about, and I got feedback from the first interview that I seemed really nervous and that the next interviewer is likely to have a more negative view on that sort of thing. I’d really hate to lose an opportunity because my body is being dumb!

    1. Murphy*

      I have this problem too! Would love to hear what other people say.

      I had to briefly speak at a big meeting the other day, and I was terrified that my face was going to flush…I honestly wasn’t worried about talking, just about looking like I was worried about talking. (My boss told me I did great, so I think it was OK.)

    2. Baby Fishmouth*

      I do this too! Sometimes I focus so hard on not shaking that it distracts me from the actual interview. I haaaaate it. I’ll be interested in what others have to say!

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My chest turns red when I speak “in public”, whether that’s while giving a presentation or when I’m being interviewed. I’m not particularly nervous, it just happens. So I wear a scarf or I make sure my chest is well covered. For your hands, can you bring something to hold? I often hold a pen while I interview, which gives me something to remove my focus from this Very Important Thing I’m Doing (maybe I’m more nervous than I think).

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        I wish a pen would do it! I always have pen and paper to take notes during an interview, but the trembling just travels up into my shoulders instead. Very annoying. It’s a little comforting to see this is not as weird a problem as I worried!

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Aw man! This is an unorthodox suggestion, but… shot of vodka? I’m only half joking. If that kind of thing I happened to me, I would be reaching for my (very small dosage of) Ativan. It seems that your mind isn’t nervous but your adrenaline is in high gear.

    4. KR*

      My voice and body shake significantly and mentally even if I have a freaking script I usually freeze up and lose track of where I am while presenting. It’s the worst.

    5. peachie*

      Could caffeine be an issue? If you think it might be, I’d try to taper down to the point where you’re okay without it for a day (or even just until after the interview).

      If the cold is an issue, I highly recommend getting one of those single-use heat pads that you can put directly on your skin. I got a pack of the large/back ones for cramps one day and “keeping warm” was a very pleasant side effect I somehow hadn’t thought of.

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        I actually don’t drink caffeine at all because it gives me wicked anxiety, so that’s certainly not it for me. That heat pad trick sounds worth trying, though. I’ve got cramps right now, too, so I’ve got a good excuse!

      1. Yorick*

        Yes, I took propranolol before some interviews and it was useful. They slow your heart rate a little so you get less of those kind of physical symptoms.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That stuff is the best. I’ve used it for solo singing. I’m still shaky, but much, MUCH less so than usual.

        2. Gandalf the Nude*

          Huh. I was going to say something here about maybe skipping the Concerta that morning since it does cause a bit of elevated heart rate… but I’ve experienced this since long, long before I started taking that, so it’s not to blame, even if it may exacerbate it. I doubt it’s doing enough to my nervous symptoms to justify the hit to my focus if I don’t take it, though.

      2. Sparky*

        Yes. They stop the ‘feelings’ of nervousness (increase heart rate, trembling, blushing, sweating), so your body doesn’t act nervous so your brain doesn’t think you are nervous. It cuts out the vicious cycle of your nervousness. I used to take Propranolol before public speaking (until I got used to it so I didn’t need the propranolol any more). A low dose will do. Talk to your doctor.

    7. kilda*

      I would explain this problem to your doctor and ask if they will give you a beta blocker to take for these situations. It’s not an anxiety medicine, more of a mild blood pressure medicine, but it tamps down your body’s involuntary stress response which can include shaking, flushing, faster heart rate. A lot of people use them for public speaking.

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        Interesting. I wouldn’t have thought of that. Of course, I can’t see a doctor until I get a job with adequate health insurance. So, next time, I guess! Curse you, American healthcare!

        1. Yorick*

          I googled OTC beta blocker and read that there are some alternatives that might have a similar effect (such as chamomile tea and pomegranate juice). I have no idea if that’s true, but I guess it couldn’t hurt to try some tea shortly before an interview or speech.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I have found that having chicken or salmon the night before helps me to have tighter control of my responses in challenging situations.

            I have also worked with Vitamin E, homeopathic remedies and various calming minerals.

            Of all of it I liked the Vitamin E the best, I felt like I had the most results with that. YMMV, of course.

            If it were me, I would go to a health food store and say, “I have to do a presentation at work. What are people using to help remain calm yet not get sleepy?” See if the people at the store have any suggestions. If not, look around and see what you might be interested in. IF you do buy something, try it on a weekend so you know what it feels like and how it works.

    8. Kuododi*

      I have problems with the shaking and flushing. I do some deep 4 count breathing. ( Breathe in for 4, hold for 4, release for 4). That seems to help get my system to slow down and my hands will settle down. I also make sure to eat a small protien snack before so I don’t have to deal with blood sugar crash in the middle of the presentation. As far as the flushing goes, that’s a bit trickier however I have found if I can keep a travel cup or bottle of ice H20 that seems to take the edge off the flame!!! Hope this helps.

    9. Kat in VA*

      I have this problem too – I have a vocal disorder called spasmodic dysphonia where my vocal cords vibrate uncontrollably, sounding like variously like I’m crying, hoarse, stuttering, or unable to voice any sounds at all. I can’t control it in any way as it’s neurological, and it does worse when I’m under stress (like, say, for a phone screen or at a job interview).

      I usually get it out of the way by saying I have a speech impediment (people respond better to “impediment” than “disorder”, for whatever reason). I don’t know if it always works but that’s all I can do since it’s involuntary. People are, for the most part, understanding…sometimes going out of their way to say they can understand me, or being overly sympathetic. I basically just tell them, “I have a speech impediment that can make my speech unclear at times; please feel free to ask me to repeat myself if you don’t understand me.”

      Involuntary issues that signal nervousness really suck!

  43. LDP*

    Panicking a little bit because I found a job that sounds perfect, and I know I’d be able to do it really well. I just need to apply, but I keep reworking my resume and cover letter. My boss is going to be out of town for the next two weeks, so in an ultimate ideal world, I can interview while she’s out and it won’t look suspicious. A girl can dream, right??

    Anyone else find any “dream jobs” out there lately??

    1. nep*

      Great timing with your boss being out of town next couple weeks. Good luck, LDP! Remember to proofread that resume and cover letter really well, and/or have someone else do it. (I know–obvious…but this is certainly not an occasion where you want a typo to slip through. I find I sometimes introduce errors when I rework these things…and we get so used to reading through them, it’s easy to miss something.)
      I applied for a gig recently that would be ideal for me; I would just love to land it. As with the many other things I’ve applied for in the past year, not even an acknowledgement. Moved on, continuing the search, working on resume.
      Keep us posted.

      1. LDP*

        Thank you!! I’m planning on having everyone I can read through both of them before I send them off, just to be safe! :)
        That’s too bad about the gig…hopefully you find something just as great! I’ll definitely keep everyone posted if I hear anything!

    2. DaniCalifornia*

      Yes. 2 in fact and I revamped my entire resume and I must say it is awesome. But I don’t have hope for either job. :(

      Found an EA job at my husband’s large corporate company that offers awesome benefits! Submitted a resume and this would be a great step for when I graduate. I could continue on with said company if I wanted to switch roles to engineering/design. The current submission status is set to: resume received. I sent it 7/24 and it was opened 7/16. My dad said it’s likely they will hire from inside and only posted it due to policy. My husband doesn’t know anyone in that dept and the only admin person he knew he already sent my resume to last November. He doesn’t know her well so he doesn’t think he has the capital to spend on sending her my stuff again or me reaching out.

      Found an admin position that was WORK FROM HOME! A real one in my area. I was in the right area, I met their qualifications, they even wanted someone with design experience which I have since I am a design major. I wrote a kick ass cover letter. Then got a rejection email. :(

  44. Marie the Chef*

    I’m considering just quitting without anything official lined up next. Anyone have good places to look for communications jobs in Chicago (if it’s related to food, so much the better)?

    Back story – I think my executive director (who’s also the board pres) is planning to dissolve the org I work for and it sucks. She’s being so secretive and it’s making me and my coworker paranoid, when we’ve tried to ask her what’s going on she says nothing (but she still tells my coworker more than me – including that we apparently owe taxes. Sales tax or payroll tax or something else isn’t clear).

    I’m so angry and frustrated – they brought me on to manage a failing part of the org that I’ve completely turned around in less than 2 years from being a huge monthly loss to actually making money to support our programs and she will barely even acknowledge it.

    I’ve already been looking for jobs, but it’s so hard to also be working in this paranoia wondering when the shoe will drop. Ugh. I can tell she’s burnt out and I want to just say let me run this.

    1. InternWrangler*

      Have you considered having a direct conversation with her? You could explain that there are rumors going around that the organization might close and that you would be able to be more helpful if you had more information.
      I do understand the problems with transparency in this setting. Closing a nonprofit is a big deal. There might be negotiations with other organizations to see if they will assume some of the programs. There are relationships with funders, so they may need to know first. The Board of Directors might be working very hard on a transition plan. There is probably a lot that she cannot tell.
      I think you could also ask her some process questions, like if my job were to be eliminated, how soon would I be notified? Is there a transition plan?
      On a side note, I think it is concerning that she serves as both the Executive Director and the Board President. Is their a Board Chair? Do you know anything about level of board involvement.
      I’m sorry I don’t have connections in Chicago. I wish you the best. I have been through the dissolution of a nonprofit, and I can tell you it is often a slow process, and that staff are usually told well in advance because it is a very public thing.

      1. Marie the Chef*

        I have had this conversation with her, actually, multiple times and asked her straight out if there were plans to eliminate the kitchen and was told no, but she said if it was ever discussed, I’d be the first to know and be involved in the conversation. As I pointed out below in an update, that was obviously not the case.

        As for the board, it’s a pretty messed up situation. She’s the chair, several of her friends are on the board. One of those board members apparently founded a nonprofit similar to ours last year – and our ED is also on the board there. One of our other board members gets paid for teaching teapot making classes for us for a program he suggested launching (conflict of interest whaaaaat).

    2. Marie the Chef*

      MAJOR UPDATE: I just found out from a coworker that the ED is planning to tell me Monday they’re closing my program, but she wants me to stay on full time for a few weeks, and then part time for a few more weeks.

      Frankly, I want to tell them to go f- themselves. If I do it more graciously than that (it makes no sense to stay on and be angry, frankly), can I still get unemployment?

        1. Marie the Chef*

          Not sure what you mean about severance in order to stay? After calming down a bit, I think I’ll stay through the amount of time they’ll pay for full-time, but not when it goes to part-time. After next week, my boss is out of the office for 2 weeks anyways (actually out for 4 of the next 6 weeks).

          1. Someone Else*

            If they tell you Monday you have X more weeks full time and Y more weeks part time, you could still negotiate for them to pay you severance, so you’re getting paid for beyond your last day. That might cushion it a bit and make it less appealing to say “take your X+Y weeks and shove it” and leave on the spot…meaning lots less cash for you.

    3. Miss H*

      Oh, that does not sound good. In corporations, sales tax and payroll tax are things for which the corporate veil is pierced, meaning the officers who had the authority to pay become personally liable. I don’t know if the same is true for nonprofits. Either way, that is a really bad sign for the organization/business as a going concern.

      Just me guessing – If you have managed to fill the cracks and start bailing on one part of this sinking ship, your ED might be feeling hugely guilty that you have done such good work and it won’t save the organization; hence she avoids discussing the issue with you.

      1. Marie the Chef*

        My (very strong) suspicion is that she was planning to close down this part of the org before I came on and has been trying to find excuses to do it ever since. She didn’t expect me to succeed at all, much less to this degree (I’m not saying that to brag – I tripled income in 2 years. There wasn’t even a budget to track before I come on!). Basically I should have seen this coming within a year after I started….

        1. Miss H*

          Well, at least that will look good on your resume when you make your escape! I just read your update. Wow.

  45. AnonToday*

    I’ve been having a lot of problems with a colleague (performance problems on her part; she doesn’t do all the work she is assigned and when she does do it she nearly always makes mistakes) and am on my last nerve with her.

    Earlier this week, she emailed me to schedule ongoing one-on-one meetings to make sure that we’re on the same page about the work we do together.

    I’m not sure how to feel about it. On the one hand, this may help resolve the problems. On the other, part of the problem is that she doesn’t/can’t/won’t handle the work that she’s responsible for. I’m not sure that hand-holding her is a reasonable strategy.

    What do you think?

      1. AnonToday*

        I’ve done that, every time there’s been a problem. The overall performance pattern is being addressed by her manager.

        1. BRR*

          Is it possible her manager asked her to set these up? I’m in a sort of similar situation and would either do a couple or none at all with the line, “I don’t have the capacity to be this involved in this work.”

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            A mentor (a formal role in our organization; not her boss, but someone in her role with more experience than her) suggested she set them up.

    2. Holly*

      Hm, I think the issue here is you’re not her manager – can you loop her manager in on this, or tell her it would be better to have these meetings with her manager?

    3. SoCalHR*

      Give it a week or two, if its helping her and not hindering you too much, then keep it up. If its not working then push back.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Loop your boss in at this point. “Boss here’s the issues, A, B and C. Here is what I have done so far, D, E and F. Now we are looking at doing G. How much involvement do you want me to take on here to fix this situation?” Go with what your boss says to do. If she tosses the ball back in your court, tell her that you will be back with updates on how things are progressing.

  46. ThatGirl*

    Oy, what a couple of weeks it’s been.

    My main coworker was out sick for 10 days – not her fault, but threw me into the position of being the only person addressing consumer concerns. Last week, while she was still out, we finally had a new person start – I was already going to be her main go-to person, but the same day my manager unexpectedly left* and I was left ALL ALONE to train her and handle everything and I did my darndest but man it was a rough day and week.

    By the end of the week things were improving, and I had a check-in with the dept head (my new/temporary manager) and she – nicely, I should say – mentioned that she’d over heard me talking/someone else had overheard me, and implied I’d said things about my manager leaving that maybe I shouldn’t have. My voice does tend to carry more than I realize and I may have been a little snarky but honestly I didn’t gossip or say anything that wasn’t true. But I was embarrassed and then got weepy on her which embarrassed me even more! Had to sit there trying to stop tearing up and say “this was an outlier, I’m sorry if I said anything I shouldn’t have”. Ugh.

    *I liked my manager very much and worked with her closely and I believe she was fired, so that’s a whole new set of questions and feelings

    Anyway, things are leveling out and calming down, but I’m still trying to sort through how my job is going to be affected.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I’m sorry. This sounds rough.
      The one small light I see in this is that your temp manager did a check-in with you. This is a good thing when they ask how stuff is going. She may have known that you were having a rough time of it and she wanted you to say something about that. Try to assume she had the best of intentions until you find concrete proof that she did not have good intentions. Perhaps ask to schedule another meeting so you can get updates on your new boss and any changes in the pipeline.
      No one likes being blindsided. And you got seriously blindsided. Suggest to her that if you had more inputs about what is coming up next it would be helpful for you. It all sounds very stressful to me. I hope it gets better soon.

  47. Listen to this Clustermuck*

    I’m currently temping at an organization. Here is a timeline of things that have happened since I started 3 months ago:
    -My boss and his whole department were informed that there’d be a reorganization resulting in their positions being slightly altered. The affected people contributed to the job descriptions for the new roles.
    -a month later they were told, you’re laid off effective August 24th. But you can apply for those roles you described, and we’re also posting them publicly, But you’ll get them, wink wink.
    -Yesterday half of them were informed they were not selected for the new roles and laid off immediately.

    WTH? Get your crap together, “leaders”! I’ve never heard of a layoff being dragged out and dragged around this much.

    3. Bea*

      Ah three months of a massively reduced benefits bill and probably hiring people at half the old rates.

      I’m glad you’re a temp. This place is terrible and that’s not normal!

  48. Akcipitrokulo*

    Thanks to Clorinda, Artemesia & Jessi for the imput a couple of weeks ago – it was really helpful especially in reassurance that I had this!

    (Basically I was uncertain how to tell new line manager (of different discipline) that I wanted to take over a fairly large slice of leaving manager’s responsibilities.)

    So had first 1-1 with new manager this week; told him about the training and shadowing I’d been doing (which he didn’t know about before), where I’d like to see career going and that i’d really like to have tasks which had been pencilled in as “designate someone on case by case basis” changed to the more definite “WantsMoreWrangling”. He seems very on board with this (and a little relieved that someone *wants* to do a couple of them :) ).

    Will be going through nitty gritty soon.

    I briefly touched on possibly having a slightly different role/job title in future to take care of these, and touched on idea of other groomer taking my place as senior groomer if I become more of a groomer & wrangler.

    The answer is that they are going to be seeing how things go over the next 3 months and not making any decisions about restructuring at the moment. The replacement for old manager will have duties more suited to overall structure & project management; which is not my thing, and new manager agreed with me that my skills are suited elsewhere. I’m happy with that; door is still open to that chat after we see how things bed down. I may not get a new title (although possible), but I’m probably going to get most of the new responsibilities I wanted.

    It all went really well and this is going to be positive for me!

    But best of all it was a really positive conversation about where I’d be able to add value, with lots of respect in the room and I think I sounded confident and came across well.

  49. Done with Teapots.*

    This morning I received an email from my grand-boss, the HR Manager, that reprimanded me for not, lets say, painting three teapots, that someone requested I do this week.
    For more information, painting teapots was originally not my job, but last week was assigned to me in an effort to “Help out the teapot manufacturers” as they were swamped. I was explicitly told by our regional director that teapot painting took a backseat to whatever office tasks i actually need to do, and that painting was definitely an if i could get to it task. Meanwhile, the manufacturers have slowly ramped up how many their sending me, and yesterday, i received 7 with the note they were due by 4pm, and three more that are due today. Each takes between 30-45 minutes, so that’s 5 to 7.5 hours of painting.

    The email included the line “You will not be able to convince you’ve not had time to take care of this this week.” My grand-boss has no idea what i do all day?? He literally has no clue how many teapots I’ve already painted this week, or how many reports were do, conference calls I sat in on, or employee’s needed my help. He doesn’t even sit in this state! I don’t have any idea how to respond to this email. I don’t know if I should just ignore it? Should i attempt to convince him, oh hey i was actually busy? Should i say something to the regional director, who is CC’d on the email, about how my work load has actually been. I want to give back teapot painting all together, as it wasn’t what I was hired for, but I know that wouldn’t go over well.

    1. Interview Pet Peeves*

      That email sounds ridiculously adversarial. I don’t have any advice other than maybe planning an exit because this person does not seem reasonably. =\ At least the job market is a lot better than it’s been.

        1. BRR*

          I’d just wait for your direct boss. This sounds like awful management but because of the way offices work I would have, “I thought I should prioritize X, how would you like me to handle this in the future?” ready to go.

    3. SoCalHR*

      Did you paint any teapots? or did you not get to any of them?

      Also, its good that the regional manager, the one who told you it was a backseat item, is on the email.

        1. SoCalHR*

          Yeah I’d be tempted to reply something like “I was able to complete 7 of the 10 teapots assigned to me this week, unfortunately I wasn’t able to lend any additional resources to this secondary project. Please let me know if teapot painting is a higher priority in my workload than originally outlined”, BUT without knowing your grandboss or culture, that may be a little too direct (I veer that way often).

          1. The New Wanderer*

            This is what I would do, but only replying to the regional director. That way you and the RD can get on the same page before going back to the grandboss with a response (if needed – that email really sounded like “and don’t even bother to explain because I won’t listen or believe you anyway”).

            Ideally, the RD would say that painting teapots has apparently become such a priority that hiring a dedicated person to take over that work makes sense. But, the other angle is that the RD might say well, based on the grandboss’s expectations, it looks like we’ll have to make painting teapots a higher priority for your position. Then if that’s not what you want, you’ll have to decide whether you still want the job with the new priorities or start looking.

            Hopefully your RD handles this on your behalf without dumping more work on you!

    4. Bea*

      F.m.l this is where I found myself with an old job. Other duties so high tasks wouldn’t get done in the right amount of time. Then a hands off moron boss getting angry about it.

      They need to hire someone to do the painting but they’re probably too cheap. This is exactly what temps are for.

      I’m glad your direct boss can run some interferences but it worries me about how they handle it long term.

  50. wingmaster*

    This week I developed my “Deskercise” routine:

    Stretches:
    -rubber neck
    -shrugs
    -hamstring stretches with my Body Back Buddy
    -cat/cow sitting on the chair

    Exercises:
    -Stress ball: grip strength (3) 1 minute reps per hand
    -(2) 5-10 minute walks
    -(2) 30 second reps wall sits
    -(10) desk pushups

    Also, I’m finally taking advantage of my company gym now. I have this fear of people looking at me, but I know it’s not likely a thing…but I’m getting there! Going back today.

    What are your “deskercises” that you do at work?

    2. Shishimai*

      I do a lot of shoulder rolls and wrist stretches. Seeing this reminded me to stretch my neck and back, too.

      Hip slides aren’t easy seated, but I can slide my upper body and keep my hips still, and that helps the lower back tension.

      1 10-30 minute walk a day is my goal. I hit it a lot more often if I can convince Work Buddy to walk with me, but that’s intentionally singular… and they’re often busier than I am.

        1. Shishimai*

          The office culture really encourages fitness activities, and it can sometimes get glossed as “we’re meeting! Outside. On the walking path.” That helps too, but in other environments, I could see it being harder.

    3. Quill*

      Side bends! My yoga teacher taught me them, and I do change my chair height throughout the day too…

    5. E*

      Breathing exercises! I’ve learned that several breaths where I pay attention to getting good deep breaths really help me feel better.

    6. Anonymosity*

      At Exjob, I used to get up twice a day and use my breaks for running up and down the stairs. Three floors, double flights on each floor, sixteen steps each. I would go to the bottom and start counting from there and end up at the top on my floor when I was done. When I began, I could only do it two times, but I worked up to doing it six times. Twelve, actually, since it was twice a day.

      I started doing this before my 2014 trip to the UK, since I knew I’d be climbing up and down a lot of stairs and walking a lot. I kept a t-shirt in my cube to change into before I did it and some baby wipes to freshen up with, and a fan under my desk to cool me off. It really did make my trip easier, and it gave me a chance to get out of the cube. By the time I was let go, a bunch of other people had begun doing it, LOL. I started a trend!

        1. Anonymosity*

          You can still do it! Maybe not that much, but up and down a few times is better than nothing.

  51. Sometimes anon, always anxious*

    So good news: on Monday I start my new role within my agency, which is a promotion and a move to another site. It’s a welcome change because I’ve been really miserable at my current site and actively job searching (which I’ve posted about under my regular handle before). Upper management is very excited about my stepping into the promotion, and taking the new role is a judicious move for me right now, for both professional and personal reasons.

    Not so good news: in the new role, I will still have work very closely with my old site, in particular with the people who have been making it most difficult for me. And I have the distinct sense (based on some of the conversations I’ve had and based on some of the behaviors I’ve been observing since my promotion was announced) that these same people are going to do everything they can to torpedo me in the new role. I know intellectually that I can do a great job, and I know that I’m a known quantity with others in the organization, but in spite of myself I’m having a tremendous amount of anxiety about this. There’s a ton of forced teaming and gaslighting that happens here, and because it’s all done with smiles and this “we’re a team, we’re just trying to support each other” veneer, and even when I’ve been explicit about what is happening, the site directors have been very loath to actually address it because they’re not “seeing” the bullying and because the site is high-performing in terms of our actual deliverables. (One is very conflict-avoidant in general, and the other wants to be part of the cool-kids club, so tends to side with them automatically even when she’s witnessed bullying behavior towards me.)

    How can I 1) authoritatively address any shitty behavior that does come up so that it’s clear that there is and has been bullying going on and I’m not just paranoid and 2) manage my own anxiety so that I’m not letting it detract from my actual performance? I hate that I’m giving these people so much of my mental and emotional energy, but it’s not like I’m going to be able to make a clean break from them. Thank you!

  52. Being Lied To*

    About a year and a half ago, I was assured up and down that the next new hire would be my direct report to help with my exponentially growing workload. I participated in the interview and hiring process for candidates, etc. When the start date came about a year ago, none of the systems reflected that the new hire was my employee. I asked my manager about it and it was brushed off as an error and I was assured again that the new hire is my employee.

    Fast forward, and my manager tells me that he, his boss and HR all decided at that time they didn’t want to put me in the position of upsetting a coworker.

    Additional twist, boss and grandboss do not like this coworker and have expressed to me in all this interim, more than they probably should, that they want my coworker to quit.

    I am angry about being led on and lied to for so long. If they’d just been honest, whatever, but wtf?

    I’ve been putting together a good, bad and ugly list of why I might stay or why I should go.

    1. WellRed*

      Is it that hiring someone to report to you would upset coworker? At any rate, you were promised help, it was reneged, they are blaming the coworker who they should let go if there’s work issues. I am guessing your reasons to leave list is longer than reasons to stay.

    2. BRR*

      Wow. I’m going to guess they are ok with upsetting you instead because you’ll be less of a pain about it? Do they want you to quit too? Because they’re doing a good job at that.

      1. Being Lied To*

        I think you nailed it on the idea that i would be less of a pain. I guess they thought as long as they bump my salary a bit evey year I’d tough it out for their promises of my career trajectory. I’m clearly the highest performer by our metrics and I get positive feedback from those I work with.

        1. Chaordic One*

          No leveling with you only postponed making you upset, it didn’t prevent it. How cowardly.

          The thing is, you probably aren’t going to be able to keep up with the work load forever. At some point you’re going to max out and won’t be able to churn out any additional work, not to mention that there’s a good chance you’ll by psychologically burnt out from the work load. This is not a good situation.

  53. Engineer going Part-Time*

    Thanks to those who commented a few weeks ago on my question about moving toward part-time engineering work.
    I’ve updated my resume and researched some consulting firms in my major metro area, and I’ll be applying to one promising job over the weekend.

    I’ve been working for a utility in the public sector for a while, and the thought of moving to a consulting firm is a little intimidating. But on the other hand, I *can* get bored easily, so maybe having a variety of fast-moving projects would be a good thing for me.

  54. Bones*

    I’m about as depressed as I can be without feeling the urge to hurt myself. I can’t afford to go on a leave of absence and haven’t been here long enough to qualify for FMLA. I work 9:30-6:00 which is a tough shift to make work with interviews, and don’t have any vacation/sick time left to take off (because of aforementioned depression).

    What can I do for myself? It’s really, really difficult not to feel hopeless. I’d appreciate feedback from anyone who’s felt like they’ve been in this situation, too.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Oh man – do you have a list of fun things you can do for yourself when you get off work? When I’m really down it’s hard to schedule classes or activities, although those types of things do help me, but I can always like, get into streaming a certain TV show, buy myself special food that I like, or schedule something fun after my shift like a walk in a pretty place. Then I had something to look forward to all day.

      When I was really down on my last job I also made sure to leave the building for lunch, not sure if that’s an option for you.

      Basically, can you make your life outside of work more fun and rewarding? So then the time spent at work is at least funding things that add joy to your life, which might help you feel better about those hours on the job.

      1. Bones*

        I’m trying. I work an 1.5 hr train ride away from work, so I’m usually so worn out (and admittedly my motivation is almost non-existent right now) that I just put on my pajamas and watch Netflix. :/

        1. E*

          What do you do on the train? Can you try puzzle books, reading/listening to books or podcasts, or crochet/knitting? These usually let my brain unwind from work stress and help me feel like I’ve gotten some “me” time in a day.

            1. Girl friday*

              Have you tried walking on the train? I have always done that. People are rabidly against it sometimes.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I had to drill this one into my dense skull. Watching tv/movies is not the same as resting. And for some people they can end up feeling more depressed. As painful as it is, try giving up or limiting the video and see where that puts you. Replace it with something that is relaxing for you, such as a hot soak in a tub or reading in bed.
          Honestly, 3 hours on a train every day would do me in. Give yourself credit for even doing this.

    2. Agirlisnoone*

      As someone who’s dealt with my own diagnosis and has friends with similar, including one friend who self-harmed in the past but is doing much better now I really recommend talking to someone at a Depression hotline or text service if seeing someone in person isn’t feasible right now. https://www.crisistextline.org is one that’s good for anywhere in the US. Deep breaths. Try and practice self-care as much as you can in your non-work hours. If you are able to get an in-person appointment could you take the time off unpaid? The first step is getting help ASAP. If you’ve never looked into antidepressants now might be the time. There’s a stigma but they can help a lot if you find the right match. Wishing you all the best!

    3. Dino*

      Hi there, Bones. I’ve felt that way (and am honestly feeling that way now). Is there anything that consistently makes you happy, something small that you can look forward to during the day? That’s what’s helped me, along with working with my doctor to adjust my meds or dosage. Even if it was something like “cook a new 5-ingredient recipe” or “light that good smelling candle that I’ve been saving for a special occasion,” it helped.

      1. Bones*

        That’s part of how my depression manifests, annoyingly enough. I lose all motivation beyond basic survival, and can’t make myself go to/do things even if I really want to. It kind of feels like a self-perpetuating cycle.

        1. Thursday Next*

          I’m sorry to have seen this so late. I can relate to this absence of motivation.

          How much sleep do you get? Given your commute, it’s quite possible you’re not sleeping enough. I would suggest downloading Netflix videos to watch on the train, and *not* watching videos at home. Instead, give yourself a calming ritual to look forward to. Perhaps a ten minute walk (longer if you can manage) and a bath?

          Also, you may want to check out 7 Cups online. They have volunteers who will text with you. It’s not a crisis management resource, but it is a group of sympathetic people.

          Agreeing with the posters who are encouraging you to seek therapy and medication, if you haven’t already.

          Wishing you all the best.

          1. Bones*

            Weirdly enough, I’ve had the opposite problem. I sleep too much! 7 cups sounds like it could really help me out, thank you so so much for the tip! :)

    4. Washi*

      When I was in this spot, I found it helpful to exercise/go outside before work, even if it was just a short walk. It was hard to make myself do it, but getting moving really helped boost my mood for a good chunk of the day.

      I also go to therapy regularly, so there’s that if you have insurance.

      Depression sucks – it saps your ability to do the very things that would make you better. Good luck!

      1. Bones*

        I’ve been taking a barre class that’s helping a bit in the moment, but sometimes I feel like I’m hard-wired to be sad.

    5. Evil HR Person*

      Actually, that’s a great schedule to make work for interviews! I would totally fit you in first thing in the morning, even if that means coming in at 7AM so we can have an uninterrupted 2 hours or enough time to allow you to commute to work. Apply for the jobs that you feel you’re qualified for, and if they call you for an in-person interview, explain that you can meet with them first thing before your shift starts. Most employers – and certainly the ones you’d want to work for – will totally understand. In the meantime, take care of yourself and see if your current employers offers an Employee Assistance Program (they’re free and confidential).

      1. Bones*

        I wish more interviewers were as flexible as you, I’m having a real trouble finding people that will make it in that early (made even more annoying & frustrating by the fact that I live in Greenwich CT and work in NYC; 1.5 on the train each way). Meh.

    6. Lumen*

      Your support network is vital here. It’s incredibly vulnerable to be honest about how you’re really doing inside, especially when depressed, but it’s very, very important to your future health. Friends, family, coworkers, a meetup group, a book club, whatever it is – have at least one thing in life that is your ‘social medication’ that you engage in even if you don’t 100% feel like it that day. Depression is an isolating illness to begin with, and it self-perpetuates that isolation.

      Commenting here and asking for help is a great example of this, but I think you also need some in-person human contact that isn’t associated with work. You may already have this, and if so I’m very glad, but I just want to make sure you have people in your life who are on Team You.

    7. Birdbrain*

      *Virtual hugs* You’ve already got a lot of good advice here. I will add: be gentle with yourself if you can. Try to remember that the way you feel now is not the way you’ll always feel.

      This Captain Awkward article might not be what you’re looking for, but it lots of advice for how to keep it together at work: https://captainawkward.com/2013/02/16/450-how-to-tighten-up-your-game-at-work-when-youre-depressed/

      And if you haven’t done this recently, check in with your doctor. The thing that made the biggest difference for me was medication. Everyone’s different, but in my case it took the edge off enough that I could start getting things done.

    8. Emily S.*

      I find it helpful to spend time outside. So I take little walks outdoors on my lunch breaks (even if it’s just around a nearby outdoor shopping center). Also, I ride my bike through a park every weekend, and that makes me feel good.

  55. Sara*

    This might not be 100% work related – but tangentially work related?

    I’ve recently gotten into Very Cavallari, the show where Kristen Cavallari opens a new store in Nashville for her company and the personal lives of everyone at the store. This isn’t a unique type of reality tv, there’s a bunch of hotel shows I think too with workers, and I know there have been other MTV type shows where people work in magazines or whatnot.

    Knowing these people were likely cast/hired for their looks and drama potential, and not their work ethics, the social media manager on this show is awful at her job. She’s full of drama – the ‘villian’ really – but she just doesn’t really do much at the store. They show Kristen trying to manage her but they’re also all friends. I mean they show her going on vacation with the employees too.

    I guess my question is, do you think reality shows like this should aim to be more realistic/show the people that actually do their jobs if they want their company/hotel/magazine to be taken seriously, or is it worth the publicity to just show themselves as a dysfunctional office that’s like family?

    1. Justin PBG*

      This is along the lines of Vanderpump and also things like Below Deck. They’re not gonna try and show professionalism because that doesn’t sell.

      It would be nice, though.

    2. Rey*

      I don’t think the main purpose of this show is for the company/hotel to be taken seriously, I think it’s usually a way of enlarging whatever celebrity the owner/employees already have, and based on commercials I’ve seen, the owners don’t really manage their employees so much as encourage the bad behavior/dramatics that make the show stay on the air for awhile. I imagine that the more dramatic a given individual, the more likely they are to have a fan following, and more likely to continue in their role for consequent seasons of the show.

    3. Anonymosity*

      All reality shows are directed and very heavily edited. The situations and even storylines are manufactured and staged, or even re-staged, and exaggerated for effect. You are not looking at reality.

      I think you might find something approaching realism in a serious documentary, but I can’t imagine anyone making a documentary about a hotel or a store, unless it’s haunted or the site of a criminal investigation. But then the focus would be on the investigators, not the workers.

  56. Little Bean*

    I just accepted a supervisory role for a new team, which is just being formed and needs to have all new processes created. They hired one of my direct reports, Arya, several months ago, and she started designing a transitional process to get our team up and running before I was hired. Arya seems very smart, capable and hard working but she has zero actual experience in what we do. Like, they had her working on creating a teapot manufacturing process and she’s literally never made a teapot before. I have 15 years of teapot making experience. The processes that Arya has started working on, and spent a lot of time on, are not at all what I would have designed – I’m not necessarily saying that they won’t work, but they are not as efficient or effective as what I would have designed myself. She’s highly valued and trusted by the leadership and had been given a lot of authority by the leadership prior to my arrival, so they are all under the impression that her plan is good and will be implemented.

    I’ve been here less than a week – I don’t think I can just come in as the new supervisor and tell them their plan is not good, and I’m scrapping all her work, right? Arya is going to remain on my team and even though I’m her supervisor, I’m also the new person and my bosses all like Arya, so I don’t want to start out by alienating her. I’m thinking that I will work with her on revisions to make her plan as effective as possible within the scope of what she has already done, and use it for a transitional period only, until we are fully staffed. Any one have better ideas?

    1. Little Bean*

      On second thought, rereading my comment, I’m feeling like my own judgment and professionalism will get called into question if I allow us to start implementing a system that I know is this flawed, even if only temporarily. Should I talk to my boss in private, explain my concerns with Arya’s plan, and hope that they will understand and support me in replacing it? I started to bring up a few concerns during a very brief meeting with both Arya and my boss where they were explaining the plan to me, and they did not seem receptive – sort of like, this decision has already been made. But it was a brief, high-level conversation on my first day at the job, and I had not had time to review the details or even fully thought out my concerns.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I’m dealing with something similar, where I’m new and another employee has a lot of trust and respect. I think you do have to tread carefully. You can also suggest phasing in parts of the idea and troubleshooting, maybe?

    2. BRR*

      I think you have to make a new plan and it’s going to require more effort to do so respecting office politics but it can be done. Can you try and frame it as that’s a great first draft and you’re revising and that’s the natural process for this type of thing? I personally would be saying “industry standards” and “best practices” so often that Arya would be writing into AAM complaining that their new manager is saying those phrases way too much. This way it’s not your idea vs. her’s.

      I wish I could remember how a manager phrased this but she was able to basically say to me, “I’m the manager of the teapot department and I need to make sure we’re making top-quality teapots.” It was phrased in a way that made me see she was doing the job she was hired for by making the best teapots and it wasn’t a control thing.

      1. Little Bean*

        This is helpful, to keep the focus on outcomes. In my field, there are a lot of different ways to make teapots so there isn’t always going to be one “best way”, and we’re also a field known for being resistant to change so I don’t want to write off new ideas without really considering them. The thing is, it’s not so much that the process needs revision – it’s more that, if I had no other considerations, I would completely toss the concept Arya has created. Like, she planned an entire teapot manufacturing process in Excel and really, I would have done it in Python. So I can work with her to improve her Excel version but it will never be as good as what it should be if it were in Python.

  57. Emma*

    Got a call from a body piercer about an apprenticeship opportunity and was told he’d text me when he had found a good date for me to come in and interview. I checked in a couple days later and he said he was still trying to figure out the schedules of the other piercing staff. It’s been a couple more days and still nothing. I’m on pins & needles and struggling to focus on work. Ugh.

    1. Murphy*

      I giggled at “pins and needles.” But I hope you year something soon! The waiting is the worst.

  58. matcha123*

    I work overseas and don’t have family in the country I’m in. While I do have some friends, the ones I am closest with are also foreigners. For the past few years I’ve been grappling with what is appropriate to share with some coworkers.
    If I were in the US, I would (I hope) have friends in the area and of course I’d have other friends I could call up to ask about sensitive topics.
    Recently, I had a health scare. This isn’t the first time I’ve had a health scare here, and I wonder if it’s TMI to share some of this with some coworkers and get their advice on doctors and such.

    Would you guys be turned off by a foreign coworker asking and talking about medical issues? Especially if they had no close, local friends or family?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think it’s okay to say something like “I’m dealing with some gastrointestinal issues and looking for some doctor recommendations” but I would refrain from going into the gory details of said issues.

      1. matcha123*

        Thanks. That’s been my approach so far.
        I don’t think they need specifics, but my network is so patchy that I would feel a lot safer if the people at my office did have some scant details about these kind of things. Trusted/sympathetic people.

    2. SoCalHR*

      I think the culture of wherever you are could make a difference of whether its “appropriate” or not (i.e. how reserved is the workplace culture, what types of things do people talk/joke about). But I do think most people generally recognize that its tough being away from home so may extend extra sympathy or pardon some inappropriateness.

    3. Ender*

      I personally wouldn’t be turned off and would do my best to help and give advice, but I think I may be unusual in that regard.

    4. AeroEngineer*

      Sure, why not? Just leave out the specific details on why exactly you need a doctor, but if I was in your shoes (which I am, except that the health care system here works differently, so I don’t get to choose a doctor, it all goes through my GP), I would ask around and see if anyone had any leads. Something like “I’m looking for a doctor who is specialized in X, do you have any ideas of who would be good?”

    5. Mad Baggins*

      Late, but I think we are in the same country. It doesn’t seem common to ask about medical advice, but I think you can certainly get away with things under the “foreign” umbrella. If you can go to lunch with someone and ask them discreetly I think it would be fine.

      Also I recommend sites like byoinnavi and 10mandoc. There are a couple review sites for doctors as well, I remember reading lots of reviews of dentists and things.

  59. Feeling hopeless*

    I’m taking baby steps towards starting a job search (trying to get out of a deeply toxic situation at my work), and it all feels so intimidating! I look at jobs ads and even when the description sounds like something I’d be good at, I feel completely inadequate and hopeless once I read through all their qualification requirements.

    How do people stay confident during a job search? Or build up confidence for job searching?

    Rational me knows that plenty of people who aren’t superstar geniuses manage to get good jobs – I work with lots of them! But every time I go look on Indeed, rational me vanishes and all I can think about is all the ways I don’t measure up and how I’m going to be stuck in my current nightmare position forever (or until I get fired). Help?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Probably not addressing your wider concerns, but is there a more targeted job searching site that’s specific to your interests? I get overwhelmed on broad sites like Indeed pretty quickly, even with the filtering options – there’s just so much to wade through.

    2. nep*

      Whoa can I relate. It is overwhelming. I read the ads and think there is this entire class of people out there who are suited for these jobs and it ain’t me.
      It does help, as you mention, to think of all the people who have managed to get jobs…I reckon I’m at least as competent as some of them…?
      It can really make me freeze up and not apply if I think about it too much. I find it helps to–in a way–fake it till you make it. Even if, in the moment you’ve got to tailor that letter and resume, you’re not feeling up to par–really just stay focused on all your skills and your strong points, and put all that positive energy into those documents. This is the only step you’ve got to tackle in the moment. The letter and resume are for landing an interview–that’s it. You can deal with psyching yourself up for the next steps as they come. (And the confidence will automatically get a boost when you get a call-back and/or request for interview.)
      I hear you. Wishing you all the best.

    3. OhGee*

      I can relate! A few things to remember: your feelings of inadequacy, hopelessness, and intimidation likely come from being in a toxic workplace. I strongly recommend taking an inventory of your achievements and skills – both from current and past jobs and from volunteer gigs, hobbies, etc. You almost certainly have more to offer than you’d think! Then remember that it’s totally okay to apply for a job for which you don’t meet 100% of the requirements – I do it all the time (for the record, I am a woman in the US). And find a trusted friend/partner/family member to talk about this stuff with – that can help keep you accountable when you feel defeated. You can talk through job descriptions, think out loud about how your experience fits the role, check in about actually submitting applications. This person should cheer you on, give you feedback, and generally help you keep looking. I have also been job searching, in hopes of getting out of a stagnant and often toxic job, since January – it’s a hard road, but you can do it. Good luck.

  60. Peaches*

    When (if ever) is it okay to ask a manager to not attend a workshop he has signed you up for?

    For reference, I work at one of thirty six nationwide branches that filter up to a single corporate office. The corporate office frequently holds workshops for Teapot Salespeople. I am a Teapot Support Specialist. There is very little overlap between the positions. However, I am consistently enrolled by my corporate to attend Teapot Salespeople Workshops, over various topics. For the third time in six months, I have received an email about yet another Teapot Salespeople Workshop that I am on the attendee list for. The workshops last three days, and require travel. The two workshops I have been to so far have had VERY little relevance to my position. They are 100% geared towards Teapot Salespeople. The individuals who run these workshops refer to all of us as Teapot Salespeople, and never even acknowledge that not everyone attending is a Teapot Salesperson (there are usually about 20 attendees; about 16 or 17 are Teapot Salespeople). Before the very first workshop I attended, I asked my manager if this was really something I should attend (because the topics listed in the email about the workshop were completely irrelevant to me). He responded with, “yes, I think you’ll learn something.”

    To me, these workshops are a huge waste of time. I spend three days learning a multitude of information that is not applicable to my job. I vaguely mentioned to my manager after the first two workshops I attended that that these have little relevance to me. In response he said, “to be honest, the reason you go to those is because corporate is too lazy to hold a separate workshop for people in your specific role.” I want to say, “then please don’t make me go to these!” Is it okay to approach him this time around and ask to be un-enrolled from the workshop, or will that reflect badly on me? For what it’s worth, I’m a high performer, and have received nothing but praise from my manager in my time in this position.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I think you could absolutely say, “to be honest I’m not getting a lot out of these trainings and I’d love to have this time to do X” – where X is a valuable workplace task, and he might well agree that he’d rather have you do X as well. Otherwise I guess view it as an opportunity to network in your field …

    2. BRR*

      I would but I can’t quite tell if this is more that he gets that it’s useless and would be fine with it or he gets that its useless but it’s not the hill he is going to die on (that hill being not attending this workshop). Is there another training that you would be more applicable to your job?

  61. Embarrassed to ask this*

    Going extra anonymous because I’m afraid of the judgement…

    I’m interested in working from home once a week, or once every two weeks…but honestly I don’t have a good reason for it. My real reason is that I don’t have 40 hours worth of work to do in a week and the time that I spend at work but not actually working could be much better used in my house. I could use some child free time in my house to do laundry and cleaning, etc. I know that makes me sound like a slacker, but I’m not! When I have stuff to get do, I get it done! My work just fluctuates, but even on a busy week it’s usually not actually 40 hours. I’m also a team of one, so there aren’t co-workers I could help out in my less busy times. I work for the state and I’m salaried nonexempt, so I have to clock 40 hours every week or use PTO.

    I don’t even have a good excuse. My commute isn’t that bad, and the daycare I use is near my office anyway, so even if I worked from home, I’d basically still have to drive in. So I can’t argue the commute. I can’t really argue distractions. I’m in an open area, but no one sits near me, and I actually don’t mind the noise unless I’m on a phone call. Asking about this would be bad, and I just have to suck it up, right?

    1. Embarrassed to ask this*

      To add, a big stressor in my life is not being able to get things done because either my husband or I are closely watching a toddler all the time. I recognize that this doesn’t benefit my workplace at all, but it is a big source of stress for me.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I so feel you on this. Most of my past jobs want me to be available 40+ hours in a week, but there’s not literally 40 straight hours of sitting at my desk working that needs to happen. I thought I was going crazy when I first entered the working world and realized that a lot of jobs are sort of … makework stuff. I could reasonably do my job in 25 concentrated hours and just be “on call” from home the rest of the time. But I couldn’t bring that up to my boss because they’d probably just hear that I don’t have enough to do and dump boring craptasks on me. I think it’s inherent to Management.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I relate to this 100%! I, too, could easily do my job in 25 hours a week. I’ve asked my manager and coworkers if they have any tasks or projects they need assistance with when I’m not busy, but am usually given a super monotonous task (i.e., going through a list of 500+ customers who are not set up to receive invoices via email, and emailing each of them individually to see if they are interested in electronic invoices. Which of course, the response rate is about 2%). I would love to work from home “on call” at least part of the time.

      2. Not Today Satan*

        Ugh, 100% this. I had a boss who literally would spent 15 hours a week shooting the crap on the phone. But he had the impression he was overworked and everyone else needed more work to do.

        Most jobs don’t take 40 hours, and that’s okay. It’s time for the USA’s obsession with hours and work and martyrdom for work to end.

        2. Embarrassed to ask this*

          Yeah, I wish I wasn’t required to have my butt in my seat for 40 hours just because.

    3. Nita*

      Is working from home really common in your office? If it is, you may not even need to give a reason. However – I’d be wary of being home when you don’t have enough work to do. Wouldn’t you be basically billing work hours for hanging out at home? I’m A-OK with working from home when I have legit work to do, but really nervous about even creating the perception that I’m doing personal stuff on the company clock. When I don’t have enough work, I feel like I have to drag myself into the office so at least I’m there if anyone needs me.

      1. Embarrassed to ask this*

        Therr is one person I know who does it regularly. She’s been here a long time. Otherwise people do it if there’s a reason: snow day, plumber coming, sick kid (though I always take sick time for whatever hours I’m unable to workor make up that week.) When I’ve worked at home in those situations, I’ve often done other things and just made sure that I was on top of my email to respond to any requests.

        Also relevant, my job could basically be remote. I do everything by email and I don’t have meetings all that often.

        1. Nita*

          That’s a tough one! I really feel for you. I’ve gone through the same thing as a mom of toddlers who hate sleep. It’s only getting better now, five years in. It doesn’t really sound like working remote is a big thing in your office, so it’s hard to find a good reason to make it a regular part of your schedule. Maybe you can get some kid-free time by taking turns with taking the toddler out of the house on weekends…

      2. Embarrassed to ask this*

        Also yes, I would be clocking hours without doing work…but I’m doing that now. I’m just at my desk instead of unloading my dishwasher.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Yeah, unfortunately, I don’t think that’s going to fly in most companies, especially if you are being paid hourly. I’m in a similar situation with my new job. My current workload is probably about 50% of my personal capacity.

          Can you take some free online classes or listen to audio books or something so you don’t feel like you’re ‘wasting’ time?

          1. Embarrassed to ask this*

            Yeah, I figured as much…I’m not hourly though. I’m just salaried nonexempt.

            I listen to podcasts…online classes maybe.

    4. Luna123*

      Is it possible to talk to your boss and get some kind of task you can do when you have downtime (but is not so important you can’t shelve it if you have a busy week)?

      1. Embarrassed to ask this*

        Ehh…I’m not sure how helpful he’ll be. Boss is very busy and not terribly interested in managing me. There was some work of mine that got restructured to a different department (not because of me). I tried to hold onto it both because I liked it, and because I was worried about not having enough work to do. I told him that and he basically said don’t worry about it. Summer is particularly slow (for everyone) and I brought this up during our regular check-in that I didn’t have much going on and he said “That’s just how it is.” This is true but not particularly helpful.

    5. Not Today Satan*

      I don’t think there’s any shame in that. I’m in the same boat–I definitely don’t have 40 hours a week of work in my current role. Surfing the web for hours at work is draining and makes me feel self conscious. I’ve started working from home some days and it’s a lot better. I’m still responsive if people need me, but I’m not chained to a desk for no good reason.

    6. Holly*

      Unfortunately you definitely cannot ask to work from home when you do not plan on actually doing work at home. You’re paid to be there, even if it’s to do nothing. Where I work that would be considered time theft.

      2. Margery*

        Yes I’m with you on this Holly – you can’t really work from home and ‘not work’.

        Maybe you should ask for more work to do when you are at work?

        1. Embarrassed to ask this*

          Like I said in my original post, I figured the answer was no. Though I do feel the need to point out that I’d be getting the exact same amount of work done.

      3. The New Wanderer*

        That is not true of every work place though. Where I worked previously, there was not a “be present at all times” philosophy. We were paid to get things done, not to sit at a desk for 40+ hours/week. I got things done whether I was in the office or working from home. The work takes the time it takes, not an arbitrary set number of hours.

        This kind of “time theft” argument is a main reason why I wouldn’t work in an office with a butts in seats philosophy.

    7. Rex*

      I think you’re right that you can’t quite phrase it this way, but I don’t think this is a bad thing to want! But yeah, when you ask for it, say things like “cut down on my commute” and “free from interruptions”.

    8. selina kyle*

      I think it’d be worth asking. I know some folks here can be harsh about working from home needing to be 100% work no breaks, but nobody really does that in an office setting itself so… Regardless, I think you could definitely phrase it as “I would love to explore working from home on Tuesday afternoons (or whatever) so that I can focus on XYZ tasks”. If they say no, they say no, but I think if you make it clear you’d still have childcare AND be getting your work done, it seems worth shooting your shot.

      1. Holly*

        It’s not about taking no breaks – it’s just she’s saying the working from home would be more productive for her because she’d be doing personal/home tasks. That’s different than taking a break.

        1. Embarrassed to ask this*

          Obviously I wouldn’t have put it that way to my boss, but I’m not working a good portion of the day now. My work productivity would change in no way. I get that it looks bad, which is why I asked for advice here.i

        2. Hamburke*

          I worked from home (100% remote) at my last job and my husband does now as well. Getting up to get another cup of coffee/water and switching the laundry goes so smoothly but doesn’t take more time than it would to get a cup of coffee in the office (folding might take a lunch break). I order my groceries to pick up at lunch (although I ordered them before for hubby to pick up on his way home from the office). I cleaned a bathroom or 2 another day. My kids do the dishes but I could fit emptying the dishwasher into a coffee break.

          I work out of my bosses home now (3 days a week by choice!). She switches her laundry and empties her dishwasher during working hours but she also has a housekeeper in every other week to do the cleaning (bathrooms, vacuuming, mopping, dusting, etc).

    9. Not gonna say*

      I’ve been in your shoes. Not enough work to fill 40 hours and young children at home. I’m not sure how to present this to your boss in a way that will give you satisfaction, but I can tell you a cautionary tale in case it’s helpful.

      I worked in an office where I did not have a business need to interact with a single person in my office. I had a couple of peers with the same role as mine, but all our work involved conference calls with clients or onsite travel to clients. Also the work-life balance basically sucked because of the requirement to be in an office and travel 30% of the time. Some of my peers worked telecommuted, but they did not live within a commutable distance of an office. Anyone who lived within a commutable distance to an office was required to work in-office full time. Yes, there were times when I would much rather be at home when I had massive amounts of downtime at work. And I was depressed about my work situation based on the above-mentioned factors.

      A coworker in my office with the same role went on a personal campaign to work from home more than the occasional as-needed basis (weather, illness, personal appointment). This did not go well with management. To be fair, I later learned this person had some performance shortcomings and gave reasons similar to yours why working from home was requested. As the request did not benefit the business, the perception from management was that this person would be less productive from home and would reward poor performance rather than improve it. This is likely not your situation, but I would be cautious in asking for the flexibility for the reasons you outline. Perhaps your work is not challenging enough for you and you can’t help but think of all the productive things you could be doing with your time. I felt this way often at this job. I ended up moving on to another company where I have more challenging and fulfilling work to fill my days.

      1. Embarrassed to ask this*

        Oh yeah, I know better than to ask for those reasons. I was hoping there was another good way to frame it, but I can’t think of any that isn’t blatantly false (commute, interruptions, etc.)

    10. Ender*

      Could you use your down time in work to do some tasks that take household stress away? Things like paying bills, making a shopping list etc? Or keeping in contact with people since you probably don’t have time for a phone call in the evenings anymore? Or exercising at your desk? Or meditation?

      1. Embarrassed to ask this*

        I do pay bills and stuff. I’m in an open office so I can’t really do the other stuff.

    11. Girl friday*

      Your thinking is correct! Either way you are working 30h and getting paid for 40h. Maybe proposing a 4 day 35hweek. would be the most ethical solution. If you think your business is affected by seasonal or quarterly traffic, then maybe it will even out over time? Use the extra 10h of pay on a maid??

  62. Birdbrain*

    This is more of a funny situation than a question, but I’ll share it to spread the awkwardness around: I have a new coworker and I can’t remember what she looks like.

    Every day this week she has come in with a different hairstyle. One day it’s in a sleek bun, one day it’s long and straight, one day it’s curled.

    There’s nothing wrong with what she is doing. I’m actually a little envious of her awesome hair. EXCEPT — I have a hard time with faces and I often rely on hair to help recognize people. For New Coworker, I only know it’s the same person because she sits in the same office and answers to the same name. AHHHHH. Now I’m afraid we’ll be in a meeting and I’ll introduce myself as though we’ve never met. We’re a large office with a lot of turnover, so I don’t know everyone (thank goodness we don’t hotdesk, or I’d never be sure I was talking to the right person). I guess it’s time to practise my pleasantly vague and non-commital interactions!

    The problem will go away in time: I’ll learn to recognize her style, voice, etc., and faces usually become familiar(-ish) eventually.

    This is why, incidentally, everyone should wear A Very Distinctive Accessory all the time. Especially at work where you don’t get to know people as quickly. There’s another woman in my office who wears a particular shade of bold lipstick every day, and it’s SO HELPFUL. (I’m only partly serious.)

    1. Murphy*

      Haha, I don’t mind when people forget my name after meeting me once or twice, but very occasionally someone has forgotten meeting me at all, and I’m like “How many people with fire engine red pixie cuts work here??”

      1. Birdbrain*

        I would definitely remember the fire engine red pixie cut! But if you dyed or grew your hair after I’d only seen you a few times, I might be in trouble…

      2. Birdbrain*

        Oh wooow. I would be so confused if I worked with Michelle! At least my New Coworker keeps the same clothes/hair for the full workday. The only reason it’s a problem is my terrible memory for faces.

    3. Lumen*

      You know, I think if you ever do introduce yourself to New Coworker in a meeting as if you’d never met, you can just say “Oh, Jane, I’m sorry! I have to admit I’m a bit faceblind sometimes, even with people I see every day. By the way, your hair looks lovely today.”

      1. Birdbrain*

        Very true, thanks! I can’t image myself saying anything that articulate while I’m so embarrassed, so maybe I should practise this script…

    4. Jaid_Diah*

      If it does happen, just apologize and explain you have a mild form of Prosopagnosia.

      I have the opposite issue, where I recognize people, but can’t remember their names. I’ve called co-workers “dear”…

      1. Birdbrain*

        Thanks! I’m not sure if I have prosopagnosia, but you’re right that it’s probably not a big deal (except to me) if that situation does happen.

        I think a lot of people have trouble remembering names. I am in awe of those people who have a good memory for names and faces.

        P.S. my browser wants to autocorrect “prosopagnosia” to “prognosticator”, which amuses me.

    5. Miss H*

      Could you try really hard to learn her eyebrows? I think those tend to be a really static feature on women, whereas hairstyle, lipstick, clothes, makeup contouring, etc. are more likely to change frequently.

      1. Birdbrain*

        Ohhhh, I never thought about that. I don’t know how good my memory is for eyebrows, but it’s worth a try!

  63. Just Me*

    My company is being bought. Most likely the sale will close in October with a system conversion to the new company’s systems early next year. In the meantime, the daily act of maintaining status quo while not working on anything new is absolutely killing me. I lost one team member, which I completely understand–he HATES change and HATES being in limbo, so he got out ASAP. At least we now have a concrete date as to when we will know our individual fates. It’s going to be a long few weeks while I wait to hear. I know my team will be here until conversion, but it’s a total crapshoot after that.

    As the weeks go by, I’m getting worried about finding a job that’s the right fit, whether that’s with the new company or another one. I’m also really worried about salary. My company pays very competitively and I’m paid very well for what I do; however, the job I have now isn’t necessarily the one I want to end up in long term, so that means a potential pay cut. I think I know what I want to do, but I have no idea what that job title actually looks like or what it would pay. The other issue is that I’ve only worked for a few companies (one was very long term, almost 20 years) and really don’t know what kind of salary I should be asking for. HR is helping me out by providing their salary surveys for the job I have now, which is helpful.

    There’s so much that has to be figured out in terms of my benefits (bonus, ESOP, stock options, etc.) and it’s all so confusing because we don’t have many concrete answers on that front yet.

    No real question here, just thinking out loud. Sorry if I’m all over the place. This is just making my head spin. I’ll be happy when the job status meeting happens in a few weeks, because then I’ll at least have a timeline and some numbers to work with!

  64. triSaratops*

    I’m trying to plan a workplace scavenger hunt as a fundraiser for charity. Employees would make a small donation to get the scavenger hunt list and turn in their answers via email. We’re thinking the questions/clues would be related to history, fun facts, riddles, and maybe a little “people bingo” (find someone who’s done blank, etc.). We’re a government office building, with multiple departments who have unique missions.

    Any reactions to this? Suggestions? We surveyed employees, and this was one of the ideas they liked. Thanks for your help!

    2. Eeyore's missing tail*

      Ohh, that sounds fun! For the people bingo, you probably should go with people who want to participate. Maybe have them put on their door or cubicle so people know who’s playing and who isn’t?

      1. FaintlyMacabre*

        Good point, the people bingo sounds potentially disruptive. But after years of charity events that were bake sales and auctions, the idea of a scavenger hunt sounds great!

    3. Rey*

      Is the top priority having a charity fundraiser or having a get-to-know-you activity at the office? I majorly eye-rolled when I started reading, and I was surprised that an employee survey said they liked this idea (was the survey unbiased? Did they have the option to not participate in an activity? Or were the other options worse than this-karaoke or something).

      If the point is a charity fundraiser, then just do that in a much more straight-forward, low-pressure way. Having to donate to get the scavenger hunt list feels too gimmicky, like the “donate to wear jeans on Friday” thing.

      If the point is a get-to-know-you, I think a series of small low-pressure things is better than one big, time-intensive activity. I gotta believe that you writing the scavenger hunt, etc. is going to take a long time (and you can’t ever use it again). Maybe instead, just host a mingle hour in different areas of the building every Friday. Include a food offering if that’s ok in your office, or make it a brown-bag event so everyone can bring their own lunch. Assign someone in that area to introduce what their area does, etc. But it can be short and just leave time for people to naturally mingle.

      1. JLCBL*

        This is really not helpful. They have decided on the scavenger hunt based on positive responses from colleagues! Whether it makes you roll your eyes or not they are looking to build on this.

    4. Applesauced*

      I help run this as an orientation leader in college – new students got a “passport” and clues that would lead them around campus so they’d get familiar with where offices are, who works there, and why you might need to go there. It was fun!

  65. Nicknames at Work*

    I bet I’m overthinking this – but does anyone have any recommendations on using nicknames at work? I have a moderately uncommon but easily pronounceable name – something like “Anastasia.” When I was a child, I went by “Annie” but no one outside my family uses that now. I work in a field where we are usually addressed by our title and last name. As I’ve promoted, higher-ups and new peers have started asking me what I would prefer to be called (to which I usually respond, “I’m so used to hearing “Title Lastname” that I’m not sure I’d answer to anything else!”). Now they’ve just made up a name (think “Ann”) that I’m also not used to and which takes me a few seconds to respond to.

    Do I just have everyone start calling me Annie? I don’t want to be out of touch with the culture. This is also a strange topic for me because I’m a woman in a male-dominated field. Will a nickname make me seem more out of place? Should I tell them to call me Anastasia (which is long and seems overly formal)?

    1. Evil HR Person*

      Barring your real name being Anastasia and your nickname Annie, that’s so funny that you used that exact nickname! My mom’s given name is Anna, but everyone always called her Annie – and I mean always. So she made it through the ranks in the government with her nickname alone to become one of the top persons at this particular federal agency in a very large metro area. So, it’s totally up to you, but the easiest is to go by the one you’re more comfortable with, the one you thoroughly “own,” so to speak.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’m not totally sure I’m understanding the situation. Is it the case that in your field, junior people are typically referred to as Professor Lastname and more senior people “graduate” to going by their first names?

      If that’s the case, then I do think you need to give a first name option (Anastasia, or whatever it is that you want to be called). It’s overly formal to request to continue to be addressed with your title and last name if that is not common practice for people at your level. But you definitely get to decide which version of your first name people should use. Just tell them.

      Signed,

      Victoria not Vicky

      1. Nicknames at Work*

        It’s a pretty formal environment all around, but behind closed doors or in executive level meetings, they address one another by first name. A junior person would always address me by title. I guess it is an ingroup behavior at the upper levels.

    3. londonedit*

      It’s perfectly normal to use a nickname or shortened version of your full name at work, in my experience, and I don’t think anyone would think it was odd (certainly not anywhere I’ve worked!) Would it seem strange to you if a new coworker was introduced as Robert and said ‘Hi, everyone calls me Bob’? People are asking you what you’d prefer to be called, so tell them – if you want to be known as Annie, just say that. If you’re worried people might not connect the ‘new’ nickname with you, you could always set your email signature to read ‘Annie (Anastasia) Lastname’ for a while, until people get used to it, but I don’t think it’ll be a big deal to anyone.

    5. Student*

      Pick a name you, first and foremost, like and respond to comfortably.

      Pick a name that matches with company culture. Sounds like first-name is company culture, so it’s gotta be more first-name, less Title Lastname. Depending on your name, you might get traction with Lastname (no title).

      If you don’t have a go-to professional name that meets those criteria, I strongly suggest you make one up that DOES NOT use a diminutive version of your name – a suffix meant to be endearing or child-like.

      Annie is a diminutive. Ann is not. Annie is not going to be taken as seriously as Ann, because Annie has connotations of being a child due to the diminutive suffix, and Ann does not. If you’ve lived your whole life by the diminutive version, and that’s what you want and prefer – go with that, because your personal comfort with it overrides other people’s ingrained assumptions/prejudices to diminutives. If you have the option to go with something else, though, there’s no reason to purposely saddle yourself with a diminutive as a professional adult. It applies to men, too – there’s a reason most professional men named William go by Bill or William or Will, not usually the diminutive version Billy or Willy.

  66. Evil HR Person*

    I have gotten into the habit (as of this week, so it’s a new habit) of rejecting candidates as soon as I see they don’t have the qualifications/experience I’m looking for. The reason is that this lady got a hold of my cell phone number and wouldn’t stop calling me to get an update on her application – she has no business working for my company. So, after blocking her number on my cell, I rejected her. Thereafter, I’ve been rejecting candidates every day (I check my applicant tracking system every day) so I don’t have a repeat of that particular problem. But now I wonder, am I truly evil? Or is it better to have someone move on as soon as they see my email?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If you know they aren’t a fit, I think it’s kinder to let them know as soon as possible.

      I was still getting rejections for jobs I applied to *nine months* after I started my last position.

    2. Grouchy 2 cents*

      That’s actually awesome. Most companies don’t bother to send anything. Getting rejected still sucks but it’s better than swinging in the void.

    3. Murphy*

      Sooner is better is, as long as it’s not, like, immediately.

      There are few things as demoralizing as spending a good chunk of time filling out an application, cover letter, etc and then being rejected an hour later.

      1. Luna123*

        +1

        Yep, Allison recommends waiting a few days to about week before officially rejecting someone, just so it looks like you’ve really considered them.

    4. BRR*

      First, you’re awesome for letting people know they’re rejected!

      If the rejections are coming the day after they apply, can you delay it a few days? Should it matter? No. But people think they weren’t properly/adequately considered if they are rejected quickly even though you’re spending the same amount of time on their application.

  67. Sloan Kittering*

    I am definitely anxious that my new job is going to be more administrative than I anticipated. When they said “manage” programs, I was picturing that as working with contacts to develop our projects, advancing the work etc – but now I’m wondering if by “manage” they really meant like, track the contracts and reports, handle the admin etc. I thought we were pretty clear on my skillset and interests but perhaps not. I’m going to be in trouble if the main part of the job is like, be tidy and organized and keep great records because that’s … not really me. Yikes!

    1. Tara S.*

      Hmm. All managing jobs will have an administrative component. You’ll probably always have *some* paperwork to do, some reports to track and update. You won’t really know how much work is more on the admin side compared to the other kind of work until you start working. But if you notice the balance is not where you would like it, try to assess/speak up as soon as you can, before certain things become entrenched.

    2. Overeducated*

      This is tough. I work in program management and there is a LOT of admin, especially with monitoring and records requirements. It’s not my strength either, I have to keep things front and center with lists all the time. To do lists, checklists, and consistent processes are your friend. But I also do the programmatic work, I’m not someone else’s admin. I think it’s mainly an issue of staff size – my program is a team of two, but if yours has more of a pyramid of director -> manager -> coordinator -> interns you might be able to focus more on programmatic work.

  68. Taylor*

    How can I transition from the nonprofit sector into the private sector? I have worked in the global health/international development space for 5 years, and I have a Masters degree in Public Policy. I moved to the Bay Area last year to accept a job but after a year and half here, it’s no longer a great work environment. I would love to make the jump to the private sector but I’m not quite sure how. Has anyone else done it? Any suggestions?

    2. Tara S.*

      You could work for a private contractor who works with gov/non-profit orgs? You have the specialized experience they would be looking for, but you could also get some experience on working in a private company. Transition from there?

    3. AwkwardTurtle*

      Fellow global health/international development person with an MPH here. I jumped from a non-profit to a private contractor working with USAID. It took me about 3 months to land my current position. I think what’s most important is transferable skills or sector specific experience or technical expertise.

    4. zora*

      The social impact sector is huge here. I would start by doing some networking in the area. There are tons of groups giving for-profit employees (especially tech) ways to get involved in nonprofit and corporate social impact stuff, ESPECIALLY in the development field, so you’d have much better creds to make the jump than I did.

      I’d start with SF Tech4Good (they have an email list and compile relevant events happening around town) and the Global Climate Impact Summit is here next month, there will be lots of related events around town with a mix of corporate and nonprofit folks. Basically, get a sense for what forprofit orgs are doing in the field.

  69. Cherry*

    How to help a friend who’s constantly scared of getting fired?

    I’m a little hesitant posting here and not sure if this goes in work or non work thread bc this friend is actually a coworker, but I consider them more a friend than cw. I’m a little hesitant b/c I know the general advice for work issues like this is “MYOB ” or why having friends at work is a bad idea or worse, bashing my friend… but I want to know how I can help as a friend?

    Anyway here goes-
    Okra the boss is not a very nice person. Cucumber works hard. Okra gives him a hard time for things truly beyond his control (can provide details if needed).

    Cucumber has major anxiety that he will get fired and not be able to provide for his family. I know most ppl family or not have this fear but idk if this level of anxiety is normal. He talks about the worst case scenario all the time, which is that he will lose his family from working so hard, and he’s working so hard FOR them. It’s a vicious cycle.

    Anyway, idk what to tell him that he doesn’t already know. I’m like… dude you’re not gonna get fired for taking a lunch hour or a day off. He says he won’t but that he may get in trouble for something that falls through the cracks or doesn’t get done b/c he’s not physically there which will lead to him getting fired. To which I tell him, even if he does get fired, he’ll find another job. His wife is supportive too.

    Idk, I worry about him. He’s not looking for a new job for lots of other reasons. But just beyond being a sounding board idk what to say/do.

    1. ExceptionToTheRule*

      Does your company have an EAP? If so, suggest it to him. It’s anonymous & free. This sounds like something he needs to address with a professional. From experience here – you being Cucumber’s sounding board is only going to make YOU frustrated if Cucumber isn’t willing to help himself deal with this.

    2. gecko*

      Ya just can’t. I’ve been Cucumber and I’ve been Cucumber’s friend. I would continue to reassure Cucumber that Okra is being unreasonable, and remind Cucumber what things are normal and not. Taking a day off, normal. Getting yelled at for replying to an email an hour after it was received, not normal.

      But other than that, it’s Cucumber’s decision whether to get out or not, whether to make a change. It’s frustrating but he’s the _only_ person who can make that decision and it’s going to be in his own sweet time. So you’ve gotta disconnect from it, get less invested in it, and avoid long conversations about it. “Oh, I can’t come to lunch today, Okra’s in the office and it’ll look really bad if I go…” means you reply “OK. For what it’s worth, it’s a completely normal thing to be able to go to lunch. But, if you’ve gotta stay at the office, I’ll miss you but see you later!” instead of diving into a huge, fruitless conversation about his anxiety.

  70. ella*

    Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with email anxiety/email procrastination? I have this thing where I’ll look at an email, think, “I’ll do something about that in a bit,” and then I…never get back to it. And then it feels like it’s been too long so I get a block about going back to it. It’s starting to be a problem at work.

    When I get anxious about a task, it’s usually because it becomes way bigger in my head than it actually needs to be. When I do finally get around to doing the thing, it’s almost never as bad as I feared it would be before I got started. I think that’s part of what’s going on here. But I don’t know how to defuse the anxiety or short circuit it so that I can actually get started on things in a timely manner and not apologizing to people for how long it’s taken me to get back to them.

    Thanks in advance, all.

    1. sweet potatoes*

      I do this! I currently have about 80 emails in my inbox that need some sort of action on my part, but I find it so hard to act on them since it’s been so long. I don’t really have any good advice, I usually reply when someone else reminds me I was supposed to do whatever they needed me to do… It’s not a good system at all so I don’t recommend it.

    2. KR*

      I do this with I’m email and projects. I’m working on it in therapy. The hard part is that I have so many different things I could be doing that I can afford to put things off until I can’t. Currently therapist has asked me to journal when I do it and what emotions are making me want to avoid doing the task so I can try to identify patterns and needs – do I need more information, more instructions, a different process for tackling problems. She also has told me to try to think to myself and remind myself that it feels good to get things done, it feels good to alleviate anxiety, it’s better to get things done or work on them and maybe make a mistake than put it off because I can’t do it perfectly, and that it’s ok to ask questions and ask for help. She’s my therapist and you might have a different root to your anxiety but so far these things have helped me a little and will probably help me more once I put them into more practice.

    3. Tara S.*

      If I know I need to act on an email, I’ll put the little red flag on it. If I need to do something about it today, I’ll open it up in a new window. Sometimes there’s a thread of emails that end up culminating in a to-do action. I’ll summarize what the thing I actually need to do is on my bigger to-do list. Now it is an actionable item. If it’s truly been awhile, try to assess whether this is something that still needs to happen. If you have a bunch of stuff that’s not on fire but has been on your too do list for awhile, group them together, pick one to do that you feel the best about. Try to pick one long-term item a day to tackle until it gets manageable again. Recognize when things are “this would be nice to do but I have more pressing things right now.” Either, A.) build in 5-10 minutes a day to work on it over time, so you’re making some progress, B.) see if someone else can do it (i.e., do you have a lower-level employee/intern who can tackle this? Maybe not as effectively or efficiently as you would, but they have more time to do it?), or C.) resign it to the abyss.

  71. Grammar Nut*

    Pretty sure I know the answer to this one is to keep my mouth shut, but I wanted to hear others’ perspectives. My company only recently got involved in using social media. We don’t expect to get much or any business from it. It’s really just a request from one of our large customers that prompted this. The owner’s daughter seems to be in charge of updating our accounts, typically just by sharing relevant articles with a small blurb accompanying the link. There are only a few posts a week but approximately 50% of the blurbs contain grammatical or punctuation errors. Nothing major and perhaps this is only something a pedant would pick up on or care about (e.g., using “it’s” when they mean “its”
    or missing apostrophes when something should be possessive), but I worry that it’s not a great public image for our company. None of the errors makes it difficult to understand the post. I’m inclined not to say anything to my boss about this both because it’s his daughter and because I don’t seem to be his favorite person lately, so I’m asking if that’s the right call.

    For what it’s worth, we are a company that works in a niche market with very few companies offering what we do. We seem to get most of our jobs based on the quality of our work and recommendations from current customers. I’m not sure anyone would even care about things like typos when writing has nothing to do with what we offer. As usual, I have to wonder if I’m overthinking things. Thoughts?

    1. janiemak*

      Oof, I’m a grammar nut and have a graduate background in writing (and maintain my own company’s social media, though we’re not super active), so I absolutely understand your impulse here. I’d be tempted to do the same thing. I think if you had a strong relationship with your boss, it would be totally fine to speak up. But–and I’m pretty conflict-averse, so take my advice with that grain of knowledge–if I felt like my boss were already annoyed with me, I probably wouldn’t say a word either.

      1. Grammar Nut*

        I’m pretty much the same way, which is partially why I’m concerned I’m making the wrong call just so I can avoid potential conflict. I do think that if I had a conversation with him about it, perhaps offering to proofread or take over that task, his response would be something like, “You should focus on doing your own job because you’re not doing that 100% accurately.” I’m at the point where I think his expectation of perfection is absurd when most of my mistakes stem from improper training or a lack of clearly defined expectations. Until I develop some psychic skills so I can read his mind I’m going to make mistakes. Taking on an additional task wouldn’t make one bit of difference.

        1. janiemak*

          Ugh, that would make me crazy if he responded that way to me. I mean, if it really bothers you (and trust me, it would bother me too!), could you just couch it in terms of coming up with content yourself?

          I don’t know how involved the daughter is, but if you think he’d be receptive, you might try. Like, “Hey, I noticed we’re doing X with the social media pages, which I think is great. I have some ideas myself–do you think I could curate some content and [have Jane post it] / [take over posts for a while]? It would only take a few minutes each day/week.”

          (But, of course, that assumes that he wouldn’t have a similar focus-on-your-own-work response.)

        2. BRR*

          It sounds like you should probably leave it alone unless you’re the chief marketing officer or director of communications or a position like that where you should be catching this stuff. Is there someone else you can sort of prod to bring this up? If you can’t contain yourself (and I don’t blame you because why not shoot for excellence) could you somehow blame it on the social media platform? “It seems to be eating your apostrophes.”

    2. nep*

      Grammar hardliner here–but also someone who just thinks that getting language, spelling, punctuation right always matters. No matter what kind of industry, for me it reflects soooo badly on a company when I see punctuation or grammar errors in any kind of copy. I’m with you on this one.
      I would mention it to your boss or whoever might be overseeing communications, framing it as what’s best for the company.

    3. OyVey*

      To me, typos in short social media pieces indicate that the person writing the blurb didn’t care to look back over what they wrote before hitting “post.”

      A local corp recently posted a brief article that included both incorrect link (think promoting a competitor’s jobs page instead of their internal jobs page) and a spelling typo of the exchange sort (think “lunch” instead of “much”). I sent an email letting the marketing/social media person know. The errors are still present, 5 days later. I’m suitably unimpressed by their professionalism and attention to detail.

  72. Not Julia Roberts cause she doesn't have to interview*

    I’m in a Pretty Woman funk at the moment. You know that scene where she’s all verklempt because she has all this money and people won’t let her buy anything? That’s me only with all the skills but no jobs. Every interview with a recruiter where they tell me that OBVIOUSLY they can’t put me up for this job or that job grinds my gears. They’re not saying I can’t do the job mind you, they aren’t questioning my skills at all. But since I’ve been dealing with teapots with clients one on one in a home office environment apparently I am no longer able to deal with teapots in an actual professional office. They refuse to explain WHY exactly I’m so unsuitable of course (I’m in my 40s with grey hair so I have my suspicions).
    Maybe they’re right and the companies would spit on me before telling me to GTFO. But could you maybe take a chance with one or two companies and send them my resume before telling me there’s no hope and I’m doomed to underpaid contract BS forever?
    If I could go around them I would, but recruiters have a stranglehold on these positions. So heads up recruiters, I WILL keep sending my resume to you. (Especially because you all post jobs with no company names). Grow a pair and deal with it.

  73. Anon today*

    Hi there. Has anybody here dealt with a job where the end phases of a project wreak havoc on your sanity? I am in the throes of this now, at a multinational corporation. Boss and Grandboss and dotted line bosses are all gloom and doom about the current and upcoming weeks. Coworkers are all under great pressure from their respective bosses (it’s a multidisciplinary project) to meet a deadline that means in the end, profit for the company, though not so much us. Anyway, priorities change daily, they constantly threaten overtime thougb that hasn’t happened and I am trying to finish grad school in the middle of all this. It makes for a very crappy work environment. And as a result coworkers I work with remotely snap often too and they are even 5x more overloaded than me. Bosses won’t do much because as we are told, the end stages of projects like this one are always this crappy. This is not a place I see my future in but, for now I need the income to make a living and to finish grad school. Anyone been through something similar? I realize this is high level, but I can’t share too many details. How did you cope?

    1. Miss H*

      Yup, every Tax Season plus certain annual large projects. Just keep thinking to yourself “This, too, shall pass,” and keep remembering that you really don’t care what happens to the company as a whole. When you leave work at night, it isn’t important anymore.

      1. Almost Phinished*

        Thank you Miss H. Late to reply here on my end, but really grateful for your kind words. Will defnitiely keep your advice in mind during this chaotic period.

  74. janiemak*

    I have a coworker whom I’d consider a peer age-wise. I’m a few years older than she is (30 vs 26), but my feeling has always been that after high school, a few years is absolutely negligible. I also went to graduate school with a close-knit group of us, ages 22 to 76 (me being the former when I entered my program), and realized very early on that age is SO arbitrary in the face of common interest and ideologies.

    Except she seems to think it’s a borderline HUGE deal. She’s appended phrases to larger thoughts when speaking to me AND others like, “But I realize you’re a lot older than me,” and “I realize I’m the youngest person in the room, but” and “oohhh, that’s because you’re getting older, right?” and the one time we went to grab a drink after work before I realized she was so fixated on age, “Wow, I never get carded. I bet it’s because I’m with you.” (She was dead serious. No malice or ill intent in her voice, no sort of nudge-nudge-wink-wink. Dead. Serious.)

    My mouth just fell open. I admit that I covet the fact that people think I’m quite young and get carded a lot myself (but I don’t go around bragging about it!) so that was like a slap in the face itself. And just downright rude, imo.

    I think she’s used to getting a lot of praise from others, and being treated like everyone’s daughter or little sister. She’s nice when she’s not bragging about her age or accomplishments, and I genuinely like her most of the time. I think after a year or so (although she’s been here a little longer), she’s finally gotten to realize that the age comments really rub people (specifically me) the wrong way, but she still lets them slip every once in a while.

    I know the way to address this would be head-on, but I also freely admit that I don’t want to sound defensive about my OWN age, and I have a feeling she’d interpret it that way. She’d definitely be nice about it, but the principle of the thing rubs me absolutely wrong.

    I know I shouldn’t let that affect me speaking up about something that bothers me, but I also feel like this isn’t the hill I want to die on. I know she considers me a friend, and I consider her a work friend but am not really interested in expanding our interaction beyond work. But I guess my question is–while the best way to address it would be head-on, I’m totally not confrontational and wonder if anyone else have the same reservations I do. What would you do?

    Honestly, my inclination is to just change the subject (which I already do), or say, “Wow, you’re really obsessed with age, aren’t you?” lightly and give her a bit of a quizzical smile.

    1. janiemak*

      Realized I forgot to mention some additional context: We’re both cis women and some of the youngest employees at our company. I don’t know if it’s a competition thing or what, but I get a strong high school vibe from her at times, despite her age.

      2. Binky*

        Maybe just reply to one of her age comments with something along the lines of what you said above re: grad school. Like “huh, I guess I don’t focus much on age. I feel like after you graduate a few years here or there doesn’t mean much.”

    2. Kelsi*

      Yikes. Honestly I’m 35 and not at all self-conscious about my age, but I’d absolutely address that some kind of way. Since it didn’t happen in the moment with the “it must be because I’m with you,” I’d take a more broad “hey professionalism” kind of tack–something like, “Hey, you may not realize it, but you make a lot of comments about how young you are or how much older than you some of our coworkers are. I know it seems like a neutral observation to you, but it’s not generally considered polite, and it’s also not great to dwell on age in the office. Could you cut it out?”

    3. Mockingjay*

      I think your ‘age obsession’ remark would work. If she continues, maybe next time:

      “You know, the best thing about working here is that we are valued for our skills and contributions, regardless of our role/seniority/experience.”

      If that doesn’t work, oh well. (Although it sounds as if she lacks confidence in situations with senior or more experienced coworkers?)

      1. janiemak*

        Actually, she’s QUITE confident around senior staff, and seems to think they’re open to every operation improvement suggestion and idea she has. She also brags about how much senior staff “love” her, and they do seem to like her quite a bit so she’s not wrong. She seems to think of herself as the office darling. She’s a little overzealous about her office improvement ideas, though, and I think she tires people out with them sometimes. She also seems oblivious to this fact.

        Honestly, I envy her a little bit for the blind sort of confidence she has. I could do with a little! But she wields it a little like star wars kid in a china shop. smh.

        1. Lumen*

          You know, I think I once WAS your coworker. Younger than people around me, and even when I wasn’t, I have Terminal Babyface Syndrome, so that affected how people treated me. It meant that the praise I got was sometimes tinged with delighted surprise, or was more effusive/encouraging than what others received. I used to be a lot more precocious (and pretentious) about it.

          Who knows. Maybe she thinks she’s being humble. Or wants people to think she is.

          So I can say that this will probably change as this coworker ages, which is nice for her and her personality (maturing! growing! yay!) but she’s still being unprofessional. And depending on the age of the people she’s commenting on who are older than her, she could be contributing to age discrimination in the workplace, so it’s something she needs to address. Being bright and having ideas is good. Being a ‘little darling’ is not something to aspire to.

          A few script ideas (head tips and bland tone of voice optional):

          “I don’t think age is relevant, here.”
          “You know… you point out the difference in our ages quite often.”
          (specifically when she says “I’m the youngest person in the room, but…”) “No one here is judging you for your age. What’s your idea?”
          (in reply to “You’re a lot older…”) “Four years is ‘a lot’?”
          “You talk about everyone’s ages so much. Not to pun, but it’s getting old.”

          1. janiemak*

            Yeah, when I started, I was exactly her age and younger than everyone as well. I also look really young for my age. (My brother is almost 10 years younger than me, and people think I’M the younger sibling.)

            I think part of my irritation stems from the fact that I NEVER acted like that when I was exactly in her shoes in terms of career and coworkers–but I also think that’s the inherent difference in our respective personalities.

            Anyway, I really appreciate your script suggestions! Clear and concise, without making it A Thing (which my conflict-averse self is afraid to do) but totally getting the point across.

    4. WellRed*

      I like your idea of commenting the way you have suggested, followed up, if necessary, with something like “you DO realize I am only 4 years older than you?”

    5. Mazzy*

      Interesting because I have the opposite with a coworker. She acts like we’re the same age, even though she’s 6 years younger. It’s not a huge difference but she doesn’t know half of my pop culture references which are really mainstream for someone my age. So it’s sort of a weird loop of her specifically pointing out that we’re the same, when specific things happen to prove the exact opposite. For example, she had never heard of celebrities like Zsa Zsa Gabor and never saw anything with Joan Rivers in it. Pretty mainstream stuff for people who are actually my age!

      1. janiemak*

        I think sometimes that difference can be attributed to the way we were raised. For example, the vast majority of my peers had cable, but my parents didn’t get us cable until late in high school. So a lot of people my age have really fond memories of all these cable network cartoons, and while I know they exist and saw bits and pieces of them at friends’ houses, I’m definitely out of the loop when the references get really deep. I also didn’t watch a ton of movies or (regular network) TV, so to a movie buff or TV show junkie my age, I probably seem totally out of touch with what they think I should know as a member of the same generation.

        Funnily, my coworker is always making such a fuss over how much older I am than she is, but when it comes to pop culture, she expects me to know exactly what she’s talking about (and I usually do, because, well, we’re basically the same age and grew up basically at the same time). I don’t know if she realizes this dissonance between her two expectations of me.

      2. Lumen*

        The other day a coworker of mine said something about how we’re all just ‘smashed pumpkins’ this week, so I immediately said “Is the world also a vampire, set to drain? And despite all your rage, are you still just a rat in a cage?”

        And it was only after she laughed (and I have no idea if she knew the reference or just thought I was being odd), that I realized that song came out when I was a teenager, and she was… maybe born? It was an oddly jarring moment, though it was all in my own head.

    6. BRR*

      If it’s not often I might let it go. If it was happening enough to annoy me I would say something like “Do you realize that you comment on my age/our ages/ages pretty often?”

    7. JessicaTate*

      I like your idea for a response: “Wow, you’re really fixated on people’s ages, aren’t you?” and a friendly, quizzical smile – especially in an instance where the comment wasn’t directed at you. It feels less defensive, and indirectly points out that what she’s doing is weird.

      In my experience, people making these comments are actually really insecure about themselves and about getting older / staying young. And this is true even when THEY are still young. It’s all relative. Ever have that friend who’s six months younger than you and gets really fixated about YOU hitting a milestone birthday? Yeah, it’s really obvious. I remember I went through a phase (in my mid-twenties) when I did a version of that to a friend. It was 100% from my own insecurity. I cringe in retrospect.

      I suppose at work it could be a “I don’t really think older people are smart/competent/cool” kind of bias (see: age discrimination in hiring), but her fixation on getting carded, etc. suggests to me that it’s an insecure-about-getting-older thing.

      1. janiemak*

        I think you put your finger right on it. I think she sees her “youth” as something unique to her and something she brings to the office (spoiler: it’s not), and by the same token, I think she IS quite self-conscious about getting older, in the way young people think age 29 is one step away from death. i remember her talking to me at some length about how disgusted she is by older women’s braless cleavage at ren-faires (I was mortified at the amount of derision she had for these ladies who just want to hang out and have fun at a cool venue on the weekend) and how she’s terrified of getting cleavage wrinkles. When she talks about some of her friends, they’re “sooo much younger” than her, when they’re really just two or three years younger. I’m probably hyper-aware of her ageist-leaning comments at this point, so I’m hardly an unbiased listener, but it really does seem to bleed into other parts of her discourse.

        1. JessicaTate*

          Totally! I’m like you, and despite my own youthful misstep, I get so irritated with this behavior. There is a twenty-something in my social circle who does this ALL THE TIME. I cannot deal with him (for other reasons too). And I have a hard time responding diplomatically. (I may steal ideas here! Thanks for asking the question.)

  75. straws*

    What are some effective ways to convince someone that sexist remarks are Not Okay in modern workplace conversation? I have a coworker who makes comments and remarks based on female stereotypes all the time. I don’t believe he actually has a bias against women in the workplace. I’m female and he’s fine to work with directly (outside of the comments) and appears to fully respect my position and work. But he makes outdated “boys club” comments all the time and refers to his female contractors/employees as “his girls” and grating things like that. I’ve addressed it directly with him and make a point to call him out when it happens, but I’m getting the impression that he doesn’t understand why it’s not OK and that his reaction to my pointing it out are less “I shouldn’t be doing this” and more “I shouldn’t be doing this around Straws, because she’s sensitive”. Is this a lost cause?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It may be a lost cause (in the sense that you can’t guarantee to change him), but you should still keep saying something if you have the emotional bandwidth to do so. Is there a sympathetic superior you can talk to about it, since you’ve already addressed it with him?

      Also, I know you want to think the best of him:

      I don’t believe he actually has a bias against women in the workplace. I’m female and he’s fine to work with directly (outside of the comments) and appears to fully respect my position and work.

      but

      refers to his female contractors/employees as “his girls”

      and

      that his reaction to my pointing it out are less “I shouldn’t be doing this” and more “I shouldn’t be doing this around Straws, because she’s sensitive”.

      Ew.

    3. janiemak*

      Ugh, one of the managers here is female and refers to those who work under her as “the girls.” I think she means it in a mother hen sort of way, but it irritates me. Also, the work-mother attitude is problematic in its own right.

      I’m curious as to the language you use when you address him directly. If you haven’t already tried this, I’d probably say something to the extent of, “Wow, that’s sexist,” and, seasoning to taste, add, “I don’t think you mean to come across as sexist, but that’s what I’m hearing and what others will hear too. You need to stop [doing X/whatever he’s saying in the moment]. It’s offensive even if you don’t think it is, and you can absolutely be reprimanded by HR if someone takes what you think is an innocent comment the wrong way.”

      My language above is DEFINITELY not perfect and could be improved upon. I haven’t had enough coffee to be as cogent as I usually am. But hopefully it gives you some ideas to springboard off of.

      1. straws*

        Unfortunately, I’ve been that blunt. We don’t have “official HR”, but what HR we do have is handled by me. So I’ve said things similar to your suggestions, but with the added weight of “I don’t want to be approached by others.” Of course, no one has approached me about it to date. It may take someone else’s offense to pull him out of “it’s just Straws” mode.

    4. Rey*

      Even if it is a lost cause, you should continue to correct as appropriate instead of letting him run unchecked. For example, if you are in a group meeting, it might still be worth correcting him (“Girls? Do you mean the contractors?”) the same way that you would anyone else. Otherwise, him going unchecked sends the message that those kinds of comments are acceptable. There might be others who feel uncomfortable and want to correct him, but don’t feel supported, or they might be concerned that they have more to lose by correcting him. This could be a situation where the silent bystanders in a given room or meeting are seen as supporting/condoning/agreeing with his behavior simply because they remained silent instead of speaking up.

      1. straws*

        Oh don’t worry, I have no intention of discontinuing my comments in the moment. I mentioned above that no one has reported him (outside of me… to myself…), so I’ve absolutely wondered if others are uncomfortable. Or maybe I’m outspoken enough that I’m covering us all!

        1. Lumen*

          Many women in the workplace also don’t want to report their coworkers for sexist comments unless/until it becomes truly unbearable, for a number of reasons. The bar for ‘worth complaining’ is unfortunately a lot higher than it should be.

    5. Reba*

      I have gotten some traction with responses like, “Is that what you think about me?” and (if feeling a bit more salty) “geez what do you say when I’m *not* around?”

      Also, consider that even if he just curbs this kind of talk around you, without a true change of heart or whatever, that is still a successful outcome.

      1. straws*

        I really like both of these options! I’m happy to cross the salty line, so I’ll be trying out both. Given that he does seem to enjoy our working relationship and respect what I do, I suspect that the first suggestion might have enough “make you think” value to start some sort of ball rolling.

    6. JessicaTate*

      I like a lot of the other suggestions. I also noticed that you said, “I’m getting the impression that he doesn’t understand why it’s not OK…” Since you guys are fairly friendly, maybe try adding an explanation at some point about WHY calling female co-workers “his girls” is problematic. If you haven’t done that already – you may have! (I feel like Allison has included such asides in her posts explaining why X is A Thing.)

      Chatting with some colleagues recently, one told an anecdote of an older man in their office who said to a young woman, “You should smile.” The women in the room all cringed, and one said, “Hey, you know you’re not supposed to say that to women, right?” And he was honestly puzzled. The women had to explain it to him. He’d gone through a very long career in which men just didn’t have to think about what they said, so he had no clue. The time has come when they have to think about it, but sometimes that may mean we may have to explain (like Allison does for readers) why this is seriously A Thing. And then see if they have any perspective-taking ability whatsoever, or if they’re just jerks.

    7. Student*

      “If you want to work well with me, you have to treat me like an equal, and you also have to treat other women as equals, too. You do treat me well, and I appreciate and notice that. However, when I hear you refer to the contractors as “your girls”, I get the impression you don’t respect them and their work. I *do* respect them and their work, so seeing you treat them like kids instead of professional adults, as far as I can tell, solely because they are women, makes *me* respect *you* less. Is that the response you want, when you make those comments? Because that is the response you’re getting. So knock it off if you don’t want to come off as some old grouchy man who can’t handle working with women.”

  76. Kiley*

    I was going to write this in, but I thought I’d post it here for advice first.

    I work in a small nonprofit (10 people); we are all paid hourly except my boss, the executive director. I’ve only been here a year, but last month he announced that he’s starting a new policy where my coworkers and I will not be paid for time spent “slacking”. He has started keeping an eye on anyone having non work conversations at their desk or in the hall, he listens to our phone calls and if they are not work related; he records how many minutes we spend doing each of these. He hasn’t included using the bathroom but he will question us if we take too long.

    He’s going to add up all the minutes we are not exclusively working and deduct the hours from our time sheet in 15 minute increments. If someone does not have a full 15 minutes or more to deduct it’ll be carried over to the next week, or it’ll just keep accruing until he can deduct the time. I haven’t gotten in trouble much so far but he includes things like staring out the window for a few seconds as slacking and rounds it up to one minute.

    I hate this idea, especially because if we’re caught in between tasks he’ll often accuse us of “time stealing”. It’s a small open plan office and its easy for him to see or hear what someone is doing at any point in the day. He also periodically walks around just in case and peers over our shoulder at the computers. Everyone else hates it too and one person is quitting but he hasn’t listened to any complaints. Can he do this? Legally he knows he can’t charge us for using the bathroom, but what about chatting, getting water, or spending a few minutes without our eyes glued to the computer? I’m going to start looking for a new job too but no luck so far.

    1. KR*

      I am sorry. He sounds like an extremely unpleasant person and someone with absolutely nothing to do, because how else would he have time to track this..

    2. MuseumChick*

      What an ass. My best advice is to look for a new job and be very clear in your exit interview that this policy was a major factor in your decision to leave.

    3. WellRed*

      Holy shit! What has happened to turn him into a sudden penny pinching micromanager with nothing better to do than track nine employees to the second? Also, if you are staring out the window, how does he know whether you are daydreamimg or mulling a work issue? If y’all can’t report this somewhere as a group or push back as a group, I hope you all get new jobs at the same time.

      1. BRR*

        I agree with push back as a group. This is ridiculous. How much time is he spending monitoring you?

        Also, IANAL but I’m not entirely sure he can carry over time “not worked.”

    5. Not Today Satan*

      Welp, I wish that guy luck as he will inevitably need to replace his entire staff within the next year. You also might want to ask the Dept of Labor if this is legal.

      1. Queen of Cans and Jars*

        This is from the DOL: Rest periods of short duration, running from 5 minutes to about 20 minutes, are common in industry. They promote the efficiency of the employee and are customarily paid for as working time. They must be counted as hours worked. Not sure if that’s exactly applicable, but maybe?

    7. Lumen*

      He LISTENS TO YOUR PHONE CALLS?

      How much time is he stealing from the company by wasting it all on employee surveillance?

    8. Sue No-Name*

      yeah I don’t think this is legal. you’re on work premises and “clocked in” and while he can reprimand or fire you for not doing what he wants you to be doing, i don’t think he can dock your pay.

      Princess Consuela, other lawyers, weigh in?

    9. I Just Stole $0.12 From My Employee With This Comment*

      I would report this, anonymously if necessary, to the Board of Directors. They deserve to know that the ED is spending all his time surveilling employees to the point of deducting time for a 3 second glance out of a window.

  77. Hello Sweetie*

    I’ve been thinking about this a lot. How do you manage departmental culture differences across different facilities?

    The long story is that I’m the newest member of a department of about 10 people, split evenly between two facilities (east coast and west coast). We are customer support so our phones are open 8am – 8pm EST and east coast mostly opens and west coast mostly closes. We all have the same manager (who is located on the east coast). Even though we are spread apart different facilities, we work closely together (we have a work based instant messanger program and we call each other frequently when we need help). I really like everyone.

    The thing that I’ve noticed is that the west coast group are much more protective of their work-life balance. Technically we are a 8 hour workday with 30 minutes for lunch (8.5 hours expected) but most everyone eats at their desk while working. The people on the west coast will work their 8 hours and leave. But I’m on the east coast and the guys in my office tend to work longer hours. One of my co-workers will “log-out” of the phones after 8 hours but then hang around for another 30-60 minutes just finishing up little things. Nothing we do is really on a deadline, we answer customer questions, but it’s rare that a customer NEEDS an answer that day.

    Since I’m the newest member I’m trying to match the office culture, but it seems like the offices are different even though we are one department. For the record, my manager is pretty hands off, and doesn’t notice too much when we come and leave, but on the other hand we have a new system that presumably gives him all those metrics.

    1. Tara S.*

      I definitely think it’s a culture thing, but I will lead by example in my east-coast offices if it kills me. I specifically chose career paths that meant I didn’t take work home. Sure, hang around when people need a hand now and then, but 90-95% of the time, I’ve got a bus to catch.

    2. ..Kat..*

      It sounds like you are non-exempt workers. Clocking out and continuing to work is illegal for you. Your coworker who does this could get your company in a lot of trouble.

  78. KR*

    I really want to begin online classes and have a school picked out to get my Bachelor’s (I have an Associate rn). But I don’t feel comfortable doing it until I’m better at time management for my job because I’m doing really bad right now. I think being ultra busy and doing school and work will help me nail down time management because I do better when I literally cannot afford to waste time (I worked full time while getting my associate) but I also don’t want to spend $6g a year if that doesn’t work well for me this time around. Just venting mostly and feeling anxious to get my Bachelor’s since it’s been over 3 years since I got my AS and I love school

    1. Achoo!*

      Would free online classes like MIT OpenCourseware help you get busy enough to kickstart your time management? That may be a way to get yourself in the right mindset before sinking money into it.

    2. krysb*

      I am currently (and have been for the past 3 years) taking online classes through a state school. All I can really say is this: some semesters I can manage perfectly well, and some semesters (this one particularly), I’m managing like a dumpster fire.

  79. Guilty but why?*

    I have this guilty feeling.
    My company is thinking of sending me (with another manager) to our factory in Asia. We normally sell products from European factory amd we’d become the first experts on the Asian products for the EMEA region. This is super exciting, and also a huge responsibility.
    I feel proud that they are thinking of sending me but it periodically comes to my mind that I am not planning to stay with this company for that long. For several reasons I think I will stay another year (that will 2.5-3 years here in a position evolving). I know it’s completely normal that people leave after taking on something new, and these are only plans both about the trip to Asia and about leaving the company but I feel guilty…

    1. Nessun*

      Don’t feel guilty! They’re doing what they need to do now, which is send you. You’re going, because, well, you work for them. Maybe you’ll leave down the road – maybe things will change in your plans and you’ll stay! Who knows. In the meantime, you’ll be doing what your employer has asked, and you’ll have a great new experience. Frame it that way in your head: as something new you get to do for the people you work for right now.

  80. I Love Thrawn*

    I’m struggling a bit being the only office person left after the bookkeeper was let go. They went to an online service. Very hard to take any time off, including being sick, as I was recently. Also hard emotionally, all the pressure of being IT, or it doesn’t get done. The OT is nice, but I’m lonely. Not many people come through here. And I speak as an introvert. I thought I’d love being alone but it’s not nearly as soothing as I thought it would be.

    I was promised I wouldn’t be doing any bookkeeping – for which I have less than zero qualifications or experience – but oh yeah, we need you to do these things anyway, and I get those “you’re stupid” looks when I mess something up. Not loving this. Soon I will be asking for a raise for January, and if they say no… I will not take it well.

    1. WellRed*

      If I read this correctly, you are IT? Start looking, you will find another, better job where you are treated with respect. Also, it doesn’t sound like the company is doing well anyhow, but I could be wrong on that score.

      1. I Love Thrawn*

        No, I meant I’m IT, as in the only person in the office. No one to share responsibility with.

    2. Bea*

      I’ve been “it” before. I had to have surgery and was out 2 weeks. Everything was fine because I had all necessary things in place.

      This isn’t a place you’ll get any good out of it sounds like. They’re not thoughtful or helpful in your struggle to grow into a role they tossed you into head first.

      Is there a reason your toughing it out?? Can you get bookkeeping duties if you’re given time to understand? I’ll literally give you a blow by blow of small business books…it’s a skill that will earn you much better jobs if you’re not just not interested in dealing in accounting.

      1. I Love Thrawn*

        It’s a small church, which is its own can of worms. I know I’m in the right place, for now, and that eventually we will grow and add more staff. But that’s at least two years or more away. Bookkeeping is hard for me because my brain just doesn’t process logic skills well, never has.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Take time off for being sick or vacation when you need it. This is important to take care of yourself. If they don’t want for nothing to get done when you are off, they can hire more people (even just a part time person).

          Can the bookkeeping be hired out?

  81. KE*

    I’m interviewing for a couple positions that would be 80-100% remote. (Hooray!) Remote workers, can you tell me about your home office setups?

    I’m in a smallish house and wouldn’t have a dedicated office. I’d either need to convert the living room or carve out space in my bedroom. Living room is more appealing, but doesn’t have a door. I have a job that requires a lot of phone time and a dog who likes to bark at deliveries. Thoughts?

      1. KE*

        I’d rather work from home because that’s the big attraction in being remote.

        As for the dog… he’s a senior dog and I don’t see this changing, honestly. He’s not a noisy dog overall– not yappy or anything. But if there’s a knock at the door, he’s off. I guess I could put a little sign on the door saying no knocks. That might help a little.

        1. Sapphire*

          That makes sense, it sort of defeats the purpose of working from home if you have to go somewhere every day.

          My instinct says this is something you may want to talk about if and when you get an offer. If your dog doesn’t constantly bark, your employer may be more understanding.

        2. Ali G*

          I’ve done this. My dog is the same, he’s fine until someone knocks on the door (and why do some people bang on it like they want to break it down??). I typically put a post-it on the door that says “In a meeting – please do not knock.”
          If I know I am going to be on a call I will also give my dog a bully stick or something else that will keep him busy. He tends to ignore me until I start talking and then he’s like a cat – he thinks I am talking to him and all of a sudden he wants my attention.

        3. Red Reader*

          I have 120 pounds worth of dogs who get super excited when there is a knock on the door, and the 75 pound portion of that is 11 years old and yeah, not likely to change. I have a sign on my front door and a big plastic box on the porch labeled “deliveries”, and the sign says something to the effect of “don’t knock, the dogs will go bonkers and whoever answers the door will be angry. Definitely no solicitors. If I know you, text me.” (I also unhooked my doorbell, because that’s even worse than knocking to the dogs and my husband has a glassbowl friend who liked to hammer on the doorbell and smirk at me while I tried to wrestle dogs, all “the sign just says not to knock, I didn’t KNOCK.” Ugh.)

          I’ve been working from home for four years, and the sign has been up for about a year and works well so far.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I work from home 1/2 the time. I’m not sure how helpful this is, but I *need need need* a dedicated work space. I do not focus as well at home and get distracted by “home things” I need to do like laundry. We have a second bedroom that has been converted to office (with a guest bed still in it) and I highly recommend that if you have the option.

      That being said, I had a roommate at my old place so my desk was set up in my bedroom and it WAS THE WORST. Working about 2 feet away from where I sleep made me want to scream, I basically felt trapped in that room, and I hated my bedroom after awhile. So I 110% recommend the living room over the bedroom.

      My dog does doggy daycare one day a week (even if I’m working from home), so I try to send him on days I know I’ll be super busy with work. He’s always exhausted the next day after daycare, so if that day is really busy too, even better. Try to take a good walk or play fetch right before you’re on phones. Make frozen Kongs to keep him busy. Try a puzzle feeder. Maybe even set up his kennel or his bed in your bedroom and shut him in there as a last resort.

      2. EddieSherbert*

        Also, a friend of mine has some device that detects when the dog is barking “too loud” and emits this high pitched noise that startles/irritates the dog into being quiet. It worked for him.

        (disclaimer: his apartment complex at the time had a clause where they can require your dog to wear a shock collar if they’re too loud, and his dog barked when he was gone. So he was desperate to avoid the more extreme option or getting evicted if he refused)

        1. Ali G*

          We got something similar to keep critters out of the garden. The first time we turned it on – my dog barked at it :/
          Luckily he’s pretty quiet when we are not around so I never had to worry when we lived in the condo.

    3. BRR*

      I need a dedicated workspace that’s in my guest room. This way it feels more like work and there’s a separation between my work and home life. I have a dock for my laptop, two monitors, and an external keyboard and mouse. The same set up I have in my cube in the office. This way it doesn’t feel like I’m trying to find a space to work, it’s my work space. Also I have a good desk chair.

    4. Achoo!*

      In addition to the suggested bark management techniques, could you get a phone headset with a noise-cancelling microphone? A good one wouldn’t be the cheapest thing in the world, but it might be something an employer would be willing to pay for.

    5. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Two of my co-workers have dogs that love delivery people, and work 100% remotely. I don’t know their setup, but i do know that no one is that bothered by the dogs. (That’s what a mute button is for, as well). Mine go nuts with the gardeners (my house or next door) and every passing UPS truck.
      Don’t let that stop you. Get fast with the mute. (In fact, since I work at an armoire set up in the dining room near the grandfather clock, I live on mute unless answering a question addressed to me – my clock chimes every 15 minutes – loudly).
      I wouldn’t do it from your own bedroom, if you can help it. Bad for your sleep and mental state. Sleep only there. I found a great – bigger than usual – armoire/ doored office piece used on Craigslist, that is the side of a dining room hutch, and doesn’t shout “office” – and I can completely close the doors when I’m not using it. I actually dislike sitting at it looking into the gray flannel backing, so I also have a great lap board, and sit in the big recliner sometimes with it (very useful when I had the broken arm), as well as use the dining room table so I can see the yard. YMMV. But I found a dedicated space for the files, supplies, and printer, as well as the docking station…far away from my bedroom – was the best.

  82. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    You know that the background music it’s getting out of control when the office manager has to send a Whatsapp message to the group chat saying “Hey guys, go easy on the music. Thx bai.”

    1. Tara S.*

      One day I found a fellow intern’s twitter account, where he had posted something like “If this other intern doesn’t stop chewing her gum!!!!” I had started chewing gum as a way to stop eating so much, and hadn’t realized I was being so loud! I was so embarrassed. No more gum at work, ever, to this day.

  83. LynnHR2018*

    I have a very difficult co-worker. We share a role, which makes things even more difficult as we have very different work styles. I’ve been doing this for the past 2 years and I am done. I’ve tried to restructure how we do things, I’ve talked to my manager about it, and I’ve tried to alter how I react and only do what I can control but I am just done. I like my job and my manager but I have an opportunity at a different company, which would be a promotion for me and a step to allow me to learn so much more in HR. I am just nervous that I am making the right choice. My gut tells me that I am and in the interview the new company has proven that it is the right choice. I still have my doubts because I have had bad managers in the past and I like my manager now, for the most part. Also my current job is comfortable and easy for me.

    1. dorothy zbornak*

      Difficult coworkers usually never change so you are better off moving on especially if your gut is telling you the same. Good luck!

    2. esra*

      Man, go for it. There are enough benefits to the new gig to make it worth a shot.

      I’ve started applying for gig after it became clear that my team isn’t really going anywhere with our current ceo in place, he’s definitely not leaving anytime soon so even though I like my team and direct manager, it’s time to see what else is out there.

      Changing a routine always feels uncomfortable, but just because something is known doesn’t make it good.

  84. dorothy zbornak*

    I’ve been waiting for this thread! Looking for confirmation that I did the right thing (or if I didn’t would love to hear thoughts). A little over five years ago I got fired from Toxic Job From Hell. While I was there, we worked very closely with a vendor and they were very difficult – while they did generate revenue for us, anytime something went wrong with their product they were extremely combative and would put the issue back on us. So while sometimes it was good, most times it was not. Anyway the guy who had been VP of something or another at that company reached out to me recently on LinkedIn and asked to connect and set up a meeting with me at my company (he has also since moved on but I’d never heard of his new company and had to google it). I ended up just deleting the request w/o responding and it honestly felt great. He never reached out to me right after I was let go after we’d worked so closely together and now over five years later he wants to try and drum up business from me (also I have less than zero input into our team’s budget). I don’t THINK SO.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If they have the same leadership they had when you worked with them, then yes, I think you did the right thing. If they had new leadership, I’d say it might be worth having a discussion to see if things might have changed.

  85. Sapphire*

    I posted a couple weeks ago but this got buried. After being fired, I’m now working at a new job. I’m enjoying it so far, and my manager has given me good feedback on my work.

    However, because of how I was treated at my former job, I still can’t shake this feeling that I’m performing horribly and that any negative feedback (which has been about minor things) means I’ll be fired again soon. Right now I’m debating whether to tell my boss about my anxieties, but has anyone else dealt with this when moving to a nontoxic job from a toxic one?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I would say something. I actually did that when coming to NewJob. Basically, “Boss, OldJob screwed me up pretty badly. So, that’s why I…”

      1. Sapphire*

        The only complicating factor is that I do have an anxiety disorder as well as depression, so I don’t necessarily want to get into a whole conversation about my mental health if I’m mostly handling it (I know I need to make an appointment with my therapist to talk about the work anxiety).

        1. Lumen*

          I actually disagree with Totes, if only because of the “don’t badmouth your previous workplace to your new workplace” rule. You have to be very careful of when and how (and how often) you bend/break that rule.

    2. dorothy zbornak*

      YES. 100% this happened to me. And actually I got fired but they wouldn’t tell me why, which was even worse because then I just thought every day at nontoxic job would be my last day. It honestly just takes time. I didn’t tell my boss about my anxiety but shared it with my therapist on an almost weekly basis. The thing to remember is nontoxic jobs will be very straight forward about your performance, etc, and there should be no surprises regarding your job status.

      1. Sapphire*

        One of the things that is helping is that I have a weekly 1:1 with my manager scheduled, and she doesn’t cancel them. I feel very comfortable bringing up even minor concerns that might affect my performance (I was fired because a repetitive stress injury meant I couldn’t work fast enough for ToxicJob, and they required two weeks advance notice to take time off for doctor appointments), and I feel confident that my boss will work with me if I need it.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Don’t tell your boss. This is something you should work through in therapy.

      I’ve been there and it’s perfectly natural to carry over that anxiety, but it’s not your boss’s problem to solve.

        1. Lumen*

          I think Santiago’s point may have just been that as your manager, anything like this is ‘feedback’ for her. If she’s a good manager, her reaction will be something like “okay, what can I do about this?” and if all she can do is ‘be aware of it’, that puts even more of a subconscious burden on her to figure out how to show that awareness.

          Even if you don’t intend it as putting a problem on her plate to solve, some part of her is going to see it as one, and it could affect your relationship in some negative ways.

          1. Sapphire*

            Yeah. I’ve concluded that I don’t need to proactively bring it up, but if she started noticing and asked me about it, it might be better to briefly explain the workplace I came from without badmouthing anyone.

    4. Quill*

      I’ve done this. I spent two years in a job from hell, got fired, spent a decent chunk of the next job terrified of doing even the slightest thing wrong.

      Personally, the things that helped were me finally being able, because I had a gap between the two jobs, to take the time to get my own PTSD and anxiety disorder under better control. Another thing was flexible work scheduling – we routinely did four nine hour days and one four hour day in a week, and because so much of our work was doing reports nobody questioned if you “worked through lunch” so you could actually see sunlight once in a while after work, rather than being there 9.5 hours.

      I managed (eventually) to let my boss know that I wasn’t used to receiving actually constructive feedback, after several months, and even though that job didn’t last, I feel way more myself at work now.

    5. Lumen*

      Been there. It takes time and a healthy workplace to get past it. Maybe some little mantras to say to yourself when the old anxieties kick in. “NontoxicBoss is not ToxicBoss” or “You’re doing fine. NontoxicBoss will tell you directly if something isn’t working so that you can address it.” and whatever else you can say to yourself that is calming.

      I wouldn’t bring it up to your boss unless your boss brings it up. Ie, if they say they’ve noticed your heightened reaction to X, you can say something like “I can be a little too hard on myself sometimes, and haven’t always had a workplace as stable as this one. So sometimes I’m a bit anxious about my performance, but I’m working on letting go of that stress. These regular check-ins and your feedback are very helpful.”

      But otherwise? Nah. You take care of yourself and focus on the work.

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      I’ve been there. I wasn’t fired, but I quit and was walked out immediately so it felt a little like being fired. There were a ton of issues with that workplace and it messed me up.

      I did not tell my boss because there wasn’t anything she could do. It helped me to read my new employer’s job handbook and find out the process for firing an employee, and how difficult it is to do! That made me feel a lot better. I also had to remind myself constantly that I was in a different workplace and industry and that things are not hell at every job.

      Good luck!

      1. Sapphire*

        Yeah. I think I don’t feel the need to tell her. I guess I’m just frustrated because it’s been about six months since I was at that toxic job, and I feel like I should be better now, but I’m not. I recognize it’s a kind of trauma, but I just want to be better and over it already.

    7. Bea*

      Does your new boss know you were fired or did you dodge letting that out??

      Don’t bring up negatives about the last place. You’re knew and it’ll lead to wondering if they need to watch you closer.

      I left my old job due to a batsht boss who gave me some warning that I was in danger of being fired. Almost a year later and my boss doesn’t know that I was “on thin ice” because I need to prove myself without any possible biases being brought in.

      You have to self soothe here. Don’t lay it on the boss. You turned a new leaf, keep the junk in the past!!

      1. Sapphire*

        The only time I was asked about why I left my previous job was in the phone screening. On the advice I found in this blog, I was upfront and said I was let go because a repetitive stress injury prevented me from working as fast as the job required (I left out the fact that leadership at the old job required two weeks of advance notice to take time off for doctor’s appointments). I presume the recruiter passed that information along to the person who is now my boss.

        I keep a work bullet journal in order to track tasks and projects, and I have been writing little notes to myself with affirming things, which helps a little in the moment. I also mentioned the 1:1 meetings earlier in the thread and that’s helping even more, because we have a set time every week to bring up concerns.

        I feel like I’m doing okay at not letting my anxiety be read by other people, but if it ever comes up, it might be helpful to say something about my previous situation without badmouthing them.

  86. TotesMaGoats*

    You need back story for my question. Sorry for the length.

    Prior to taking this position, there were 4 llama wranglers that reported to my predecessor. Bosses decided that they really needed a manager of the llama wranglers to take some of the day to day off my role. (Good idea.) Posted for manager. Two current llama wranglers applied. I don’t know about externals. One got the job. The other person didn’t even get an interview. I show up for my first day and “meet your new manager of llama wranglers”. Cool. Really work well with him. So in sync. But long road to hoe for him with his former peers. Person who didn’t get an interview is prickly. I can understand being prickly but I can see clearly now why an interview wasn’t even offered.

    Now prickly llama wrangler Sue is making life pretty annoying for manager Bob. Trying to go around him to have me approve leave. Generally being harder than necessary to work with attitude wise. Sue plays into all the worst of stereotypes. Does ok in her role but never more than ok. I don’t want Bob to get worn down by this or for Sue to further erode culture.

    1. Have a sit down with Sue and lay it out that I get what happened but you need to be a professional and not such a PIA.
    2. Have a sit down with Sue and Bob and lay it out…ditto above.
    3. Have Bob sit down with Sue by himself and see above
    4. Have Bob sit down with Sue and I and him lead the above meeting
    5. Ignore it, to some extent, since Sue is hinting that retirement is coming. Hold to the line of job duties. Document like there is no tomorrow. Call Sue on attitude issues in the moment.

    What would you do?

    1. WellRed*

      You’re the manager? Sit down with Sue and tell her to get her act together or uf she can’t, ” let’s talk about transitioning you out” as to the no. 5 on your list? Classic non managing such as comes up in letters over and over.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        I’m actually second level manager. Trying to give Bob room to figure out how to manager someone moving from peer to manager.

        I’m conflict averse myself but have had my fair share of “hard conversations”. Trying to balance helping Bob learn how to manage former peers with Sue hasn’t been managed in ages.

    2. I See Real People*

      I think option 2 is right on. Everyone is in the room, everyone hears the same thing, truth is spoken, no room for misunderstanding. Hopefully.

    3. Combinatorialist*

      I think 4 is best. It is Bob’s report and so Bob should be the first line of addressing it. He needs to convey that she has to be professional. (There are at least some AAM posts about exactly this). But you being there conveys to Sue that you have Bob’s back and are on board with this.

      I feel like you leading the meeting is a little bit undermining to Bob. You should coach him to deal with his reports.

      1. Combinatorialist*

        if you search “manager of former peers” in the AAM box, I found several highly relevant posts

    4. rubyrose*

      I’m leaning towards #4. I would give him a lot of mentoring/advice before the meeting, so he is prepared to run it. But if you are leading the meeting, with or without Bob in the room, Sue will not recognize that Bob is in charge.

      #5 (the ignoring portion) is out. I’ve known people who would hint at retirement thinking that the company would be lost without them and because of that the company will bend over backwards to keep them.

      In any event, you are correct about calling her on her attitude in the moment. Every time, and as you say, document. May be time for a PIP. Would be a another opportunity to grow Bob in a manager role.

      Semi related story from a long time ago. I was a new manager and had to hire someone. My manager sat in on the interviews, but sat at his desk, while I was in a chair right beside the applicants. I chose who I wanted. That person never viewed me as being in charge. Fortunately I did not have any serious problems with her, but her talk and attitude was always that my manager was in charge and she was always wondering if I had checked things out with him. I eventually left the company, as did she, but it was a small world in our industry in that area. She applied to a company who knew me and they contacted me. I gave them my honest opinion. Her work quality would be great, but she would have a two hour daily commute. The second shift hours they said they might consider after a year would be something she would insist on in a month. They did not offer her the job. I ran into her about 5 years later; she told me how my previous manager had blackballed her from the position and she did not know why!

      Better for everyone to get lines of authority set straight up front. It sets a better example for everyone.

  87. Govt Mule*

    Does anyone know how to apply the Excel =HYPERLINK(filename) command on a Mac? It works on a PC, but fails on a Mac. Thanks in advance!!!

  88. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

    My tale of woe: I had an office to myself; it was bliss. Had. My manager moved in a Problem Employee. PE has been with the company for over 20 years, but has become disgruntled, complains constantly, isn’t doing his work, is just basically putting time in sitting at his desk doing the bare minimum. He’s more interested in playing videos on his phone and surfing Facebook than working. In the meantime, I’m so busy I can’t get my work done. This person is more than capable of helping me, but I’m not allowed to ask him to help. Manager wants him to come to me if he has any questions about how to do things (?????) and I should help him, but not interfere in any other way.

    I suspect he’s on a PIP, but I’m not privy to that. I can say this is so demoralizing. I am struggling to keep up, while I have to sit in the same room and watch him basically goof off 4+ hours per day! I really don’t think managers think about the effects of this type of thing. I’m thinking, why should I work so hard when he’s getting paid as much as me (or possibly more?) to sit and goof off? Ugh. Personally, if he’s that disgruntled, putting him in my office isn’t going to help. Sighs.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      It’s like when teachers would move problem students to sit by the quiet kids. That doesn’t make the boisterous kids any quieter, it just annoys the quiet kid. Doesn’t make much sense to me either.

      -Signed, EC, the now quiet adult

      1. Quill*

        Oh, I hated that. I was the “good” kid (Straight A’s, teacher’s daughter…) so I got used as a buffer for other children’s behavior or as a makeshift tutor since I wasn’t going to accept slackers tanking my grades on group projects. It didn’t ultimately help in school, it won’t help in the workforce.

    2. WellRed*

      I think you should push back with your manager. Can you frame it as distracting? Do you know why he was moved into your office, in particular?

      1. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

        I think EC above nailed it – like a teacher moving kids around thinking the good student will have a positive effect on the bad student. I have pushed back, was told that the company wants to give him a chance to be more productive because he has experience, etc, and that I have a good knowledge base and am able to assist. I’m ready to put in noise canceling earbuds and just tune him out.

    3. LaurenB*

      Yup. I work right next to someone who hasn’t been given many tasks at all by management, and isn’t interested in taking initiative to do new things. He’s good about doing things he’s supposed to do… but they take about five hours a week. He reads Facebook all day, laughs to himself, I ignore him, he gets annoyed that I didn’t pick up the hint to ask him what’s funny, so he reads it to me anyway.

      I’m leaving the job in about three weeks. It’s sad because I bet if I had said that I would leave if I couldn’t at least have a cubicle for some privacy they would have done something, but I couldn’t make the threat till I had an offer in hand and now I’m just too disillusioned to stay.

    4. BRR*

      This is happening to me as well (except I don’t suspect my coworker is on a PIP). I find myself constantly getting frustrated and thinking “we’ll, since we’re not expected to actually have to work.”

  90. Kelsi*

    (Reposting this because I accidentally threaded it under something irrelevant)

    Whistlers at work…

    WHY IS THIS A THING. WHY DO YOU DO IT.

    I have a phantom whistler lately who’s driving me insane. They’re far enough away that I can’t tell who it is, and whenever I try to wander that way and suss it out they’ve stopped. They’re like the Flying Dutchman of annoying office mates and it’s killing me.

    1. strawberries and raspberries*

      I’m right there with you. I used to tell my old coworker (who would whistle constantly) that whistling was just as obnoxious as spitting.

    2. Anonygrouse*

      Yes! It’s so terrible! Especially when it is the kind of tuneless, meandering whistling the person on the other side of my cubicle wall is fond of…

    3. Rebecca*

      OMG I had a manager who did this! I hated to hear it! I didn’t like her or her management style, and the whistling was just the icing on the very bad cake :( I’m so glad I don’t work for her any longer.

    4. Foreign Octopus*

      Nooooooo!

      Whistling is my biggest pet peeve. I think it’s so rude. I don’t want the space around me to be filled with off-tune whistling. It’s such a horrible thing to do.

    5. Sled Dog Mama*

      I’m so with you both. I have never learned to whistle, I’m convinced I can’t and I can tolerate it in public but at work I’d go insane

    7. Delphine*

      Whistling is one of the few noises I simply can’t stand–hearing it for a second or two is enough to make me furious. Sometimes I hear my boss whistling and I just cringe until he’s done, haha.

    8. nep*

      Whistlers anywhere–Seriously?!
      I’m right with you, Kelsi.
      I can.not.stand. the sound of whistling.

    9. JLCBL*

      Oh NO. There is someone in my office who infrequently whistles in a super meandering and pointless way. I find it rude too, especially since it is almost always off key. And yet years ago when I worked retail there was someone on the floor directly above me who was a real musician, and he whistled CONSTANTLY. It was in tune and on tempo, matching the music being played and it was somehow EVEN WORSE. Every note. Every song. Just awful.

    10. Anonymosity*

      I had a coworker who whistled and would also sing under his breath. It never bothered me because 1) he was a very good whistler who never did it loudly, and 2) he would make up words to the songs and they were very funny. We giggled a lot.

      But this was an office where we also had rubber band fights, and nobody in our section was doing anything so intense that horsing around was a problem. He also didn’t do it when his colleagues were on the phone or I had anyone at the front desk (he sat near me and could hear people come in). If someone had done that at Exjob when I was trying to concentrate on editing, it would have made me chew a hole in the wall of my cube.

    11. Sapphire*

      I have to try really hard not to do this at work because I know it can be annoying, but sometimes I’ll forget and whistle in a manner that I think is silent, but might not come off that way to everyone else.

    12. Windchime*

      I actually started slinking around the office the other day because I could hear someone whistling and it was driving me nuts. I finally figured out who it was….the super nice, older guy a couple of cubes over. I decided to not say anything since I like him and he’s probably the least annoying guy on his team.

  91. Spunky Dunker*

    Anyone have good techniques for tamping down one’s own sarcasm and natural skepticism in meetings and professional discussions? I’m on a management team with several folks who are very, very earnest, and it’s really hard sometimes not to roll my eyes out loud or poke holes in their ideas. (To be clear, my org is pretty great so this isn’t a case of anyone being unreasonable–I just have always perpetually had one raised eyebrow.)

    1. WellRed*

      Make the old adage, is this helpful, is this kind your new mantra? Remind yourself that others will notice this about you and start raising their own eyebrows back at you? You claim sarcasm, they think insufferable superiority complex.
      Signed,Naturally Sarcastic Person

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Fellow sarcastic person here! I’ve offered this before in another context, but I sometimes find it helpful (as in earlier today when I attempted to draft a response to someone being less than helpful) to ask myself:

        Does this need to be said?
        Does this need to be said NOW?
        Does this need to be said by ME?

    2. gecko*

      One, make sure to remind yourself that you respect your colleagues and that part of that respect is going to be giving them the benefit of the doubt on ideas that sound stupid on their face–just like he kind of benefit of the doubt you’d want from them.

      Two, get really, really clear on the dynamics of the room. In the clash between that kind of earnestness and an immediate response of sarcasm & skepticism, the sarcasm can get a veeeeeeeerrrrry mean tone in comparison. Same with eye-rolling & shooting something down, but sarcasm especially.

      Mean sarcasm can be really really funny and a genuinely good time when everyone’s in on it–I’m calling it mean sarcasm but I’m still being serious about it being a good time. BUT the instant someone’s not as into it, it turns into just mean. These earnest coworkers are not gonna be into it, and if it’s a healthy workplace, that means that your other coworkers are not gonna be into it once they see it clashing with the earnest folks.

  92. June*

    I was wondering if anyone had any good suggestions for air freshener/plug-in brands or scents that 1) don’t smell like a bathroom and 2) are appropriate to use in a (private) office?

    Responses of “Omg, no, never use scents!” are acceptable too, trying to get a feel for the most appropriate option here.

    1. June*

      I should add that I do hold 1-on-1 meetings in my office, but only infrequently (maybe twice a month); it’s mostly just me in here.

    2. KR*

      I got one of those little cups of bead things to freshen up my corner of the office . My coworkers said they couldn’t smell it at all and didn’t mind it. SmYankee Candle Fragrance Spheres. I got the lavender kind. Note I put it in a literal corner of the office beside / Behind my file cabinet so it was practically under my desk And really just in my area. You could always bring it in and ask your co-workers to try it out for a day and if they hate it you can bring it home and find a use for it there (I put mine in my car when most of the beads were gone)

    3. MuseumChick*

      I won’t. What smells nice to one person can make another person gag. Then you have people with allergies/sensitivities.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Omg, no, never use scents! :)

      But for real: Some people will enjoy your scented office, others will hate the smell but be unaffected physically, and others will be unable to enter your office because it makes them ill. The scent also won’t be contained; it will drift out whenever your door is open, at a minimum.

      (I say this as a person who enjoys some scents and loathes others; I’m not inherently anti-scent.)

    5. Amber Rose*

      If you must, go all natural NOT chemical. The chemical plug ins made me so sick I get shivers remembering it. :(

      I have trouble with natural scents too, but those bamboo stick diffuser things don’t bother me too badly and smell pretty mild/nice.

    6. Delphine*

      I find that having a tiny candle and putting it on my desk is useful. I never light it, so the smell doesn’t tend to waft, and I can take a sniff of it to get any smells out of my own nose. But it definitely has to be one of those ones with minimal scent.

      1. nd*

        This is what I was going to suggest. Must plug-ins, etc. are very strong and will likely send scent beyond your office. A good-quality candle scented with essential oils should be sufficient for you and last a while, without annoying your co-workers.

      2. Chaordic One*

        I think you’re probably fine with your small unlit candle, but you really have to know your office and its culture. In some offices, even though you don’t light it, something like this could lead to a reprimand.

    7. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      A couple of things:
      1. Are you trying to get rid of a funk by adding a good oder? I would instead suggest something that doesn’t have a scent but absorbs scents — so like a bowl of vinegar, activated charcoal, or a couple of boxes of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).

      2. If you want to add scent for like aroma therapy reasons go with something natural rather than artificial — so maybe a bowl of citrus slices, fresh pine needles, eucalyptus leaves, or cedar wood chips…

  93. blergarg*

    Is it possible to feel happy and fulfilled at work?

    I’m not being glib. I feel like I’m contorting myself in a million directions to do my job. I know there are reasons why I’m burnt out today – we just survived a restructure, my promotion has been hanging for months and is STILL on the line after the restructure was announced, I have some tension with an old manager, it’s Friday…

    But I want to know if it is possible to show up and feel GOOD at work, to feel fulfilled and happy. What do you do? Why do you think you’re happy? What are the job-related, social, and intellectual sources of satisfaction you get at your job?

    1. CheeryO*

      I’m an engineer for a state environmental agency. I’d say I’m fulfilled and happy at work, at least in general terms. I have some bad days and a lot of meh days just like anyone else, and I wouldn’t do it for free, but in general the work is interesting, varied, and challenging, and it lines up well with my educational background. In a general sense, it also feels good to be working for the public/the environment and not the bottom line.

      It also helps that I have a good work-life balance (37.5 hour weeks, plenty of sick and vacation time) and a good outlet in my hobby (competitive-ish running). And I’m sure the social factor helps, too. I have a lot in common with most of my coworkers (the field seems to attract a very specific type of person), and everyone is pretty friendly and laid-back. I have a good friend in my department who’s always up for a chat (or a vent) and a larger group of people who I like hanging out with at events and such.

    2. Tara S.*

      Yes. Ingredients for a happy workplace (in my experience):
      -a supportive, reasonable boss (doesn’t necessarily have to be stellar, just ok but supportive will work too)
      -pleasant coworkers
      -feeling like I’m learning/getting to try new things
      -feeling like I’m supporting something good (e.g., I do finance and admin, but I’m supporting researchers who do important work, so I feel like my work is going towards something useful/important.)
      -good pay!

      It won’t be everywhere, but it is out there. Good luck!

      1. Nessun*

        Agree with this list – but for myself I’d say “feeling like I’m doing something worthwhile” rather than “supporting something good”, simply because I’m hardly doing something altruistic or important in the grander scheme of the world, but I do find satisfaction in performing my tasks well so my team can function.

    3. Anonygrouse*

      I feel super lucky that I am happy and fulfilled at my current job after a string of capital-T Toxic places. I think the biggest contributors to my happiness here are job-related/intellectual. My job is intellectually engaging and the right kind of challenging (some technical/skills-related, some interpersonal, none so debilitating that my work suffers). Also, my boss has the kind of brain and philosophy that is exceedingly rare in our niche area. We do the kind of stuff that most organizations tend to ignore altogether or lump in with more strictly technical areas, but he’s not only cultivated a team that takes what is (imo) a much better approach to our kind of work; he’s also gotten us to the point where the rest of the organization (from line staff to senior leadership included) of the value of what we do and how we do it. Being confident that my brain and my work, and those of my teammates, are appreciated (including compensation-wise!) has done more for my job satisfaction than anything else.

      I will say I don’t get a lot of social fulfillment here per se, but overall people are friendly, competent, and MUCH better about boundaries than other places I’ve worked. I got a lot more social satisfaction out of terrible jobs because the toxicity forged really strong bonds between me and the few colleagues who were on the same page as me. In retrospect I understand that those close friendships, especially between managers and reports, were a symptom of the problem, not a counterpoint to it. I still value those relationships, but I am grateful that now I can put the vast majority of my social and emotional energy to my life outside of work.

  94. Deryn*

    Big transition time in our lab and a bit of a trial by fire for my skills. I’m in the process of moving into a new title Yesterday my only other full time staff member left to move on to grad school. I have one part time staff member (who, full disclosure, is really not a good fit for our role; my supervisor and I are working on various issues with them and contemplating scaling back their work with us), and one, possibly two, new part time members starting. We have one returning student who I’ll be training to move into a different role, and three new students. We’ll be hiring another full time position, possibly two, who will need to be trained. In the midst of this, we’re restarting recruitment for a study that was on hold, continuing with a relatively new study, and have a third starting to roll out within a few months. This will be my first time training so many new people at once, and without the benefit of having much of an established team behind me. It will also be my first time juggling this many studies. I’m really excited to stretch myself, and my PI has expressed her confidence in me. We’ve had some frank discussions about what our staffing needs are and which studies/tasks are our priorities while we transition to full functionality. Right now, my main concern is playing schedule Tetris with our various part time employees and my own time-sensitive tasks to begin training, but I’m excited to get past the initial bumpiness of a mostly-new team and into some new projects!

  95. Princess Daisy*

    I posted a while back about wanting to move into a different role in my company. I typed up several pages of notes about roles I think I cold do, and why I think it’d be more beneficial to have me in a different role, etc, and discussed it with my boss. My current role is not very busy, and the system I work with when I AM busy in this particular position. is an absolute disaster (aka, an interface created by individuals at our corporate office who have no sort of IT background).

    Anyway, my boss was receptive to everything a said, validated my concerns, and ensured me he would talk to big boss (who I am also very familiar with) to see what we could do (this was in mid June). About a month later (mid July), my boss emailed me:

    Princess Daisy,

    I just wanted to let you know that I am still reviewing this (this being my notes/what we discussed) and I have talked to Big Boss about some ideas. We are working on something and will get your input soon. Please hang tight, possibly through July, but know that we are working on the situation. I greatly appreciate your honesty and feedback, I am SURE we can find something that you both enjoy and find fulfilling.

    Thanks!
    Boss

    So…it’s now August 17th and I haven’t heard a thing. When is this okay to bring this up again with him? I don’t want to be a pest, but I’m growing increasingly frustrated with my current role, and am anxious to move into something else.

  96. The Other CC*

    So uh…how do you handle racist customers?

    Just had a person in to pick up a small job we did for her. She was looking at a map of our (border) state and said “Well, we won the battle but lost the war. There are so many Mexicans these days…” and trailed off looking at me to kind of join in and commiserate with her?

    I spluttered something in a light tone about how much I love our city’s diversity and how I think it makes us stronger (I’ve decided to call this “Pulling a Mom” because it’s exactly the kind of polite, earnest thing my mom says at Thanksgiving to her terrible family members). My boss said I did fine and that she hates how she has to be polite to people like that. I’m newish to customer service. Out of curiosity, was there a better way to handle this situation?

    1. Snark*

      I mean, just raising an eyebrow and not responding is great, but you could also say, “Oh, were we fighting a war with Mexico? Do you not like Mexicans for some reason?” and just force her to agonizingly explain herself.

    2. ArtK*

      I think you handled it very well. It will get easier with practice. It’s not really confrontational and makes it clear that you don’t agree with them.

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      “I don’t understand.”

      “What do you mean?”

      I use that to screw with people who make sexist comments/jokes. My brother once made a joke about “surprise sex” (cue my barfing) and I just pretended I didn’t understand what he meant. Watching him crash and burn as he tried to explain why his rape joke was funny was the highlight of my month.

      Give it a shot next time. It always embarrasses them, and if they keep digging that old racist hole, keep up with not understanding.

      1. McWhadden*

        The problem with “I don’t understand” or “what you you mean?” is it only works on people who don’t want to double down or reveal they are racist/sexist/bigoted. If someone is perfectly happy to be a bigot they have no issue going into great depth about what they mean.

        1. Nant*

          true! but they also then can’t hide behind “it was just a joke!” because everyone within hearing distance will then know that it really wasn’t just a joke

        2. Foreign Octopus*

          I agree, however it also helps to maybe check the ones who are doing it without thinking. I would say this approach would chasten about 80-90% of people (percentages based on absolutely no scientific evidence) and would then do as Nant says – make sure everyone else knows that it wasn’t really a joke.

    4. Justin PBG*

      It depends. I think you handled it well, the way I did when people said awful stuff about people who aren’t present. I just sort of turn into the “blinking white guy” gif (except I’m black). Just, refuse to indulge them.

      When it’s directed at me I try to call them out more directly.

    5. Not Today Satan*

      I think you handled it well and that polite, earnest responses like that are way more likely to be heard by the recipient than “that’s racist” or whatever.

    7. LCL*

      For customers/public? Rapidly change the subject. Sports or the weather are always good topics. That’s as much leverage as you have, and it does get the point across. Your response was excellent, I probably wouldn’t respond with that to a member of the public because I would go into lecture mode and things would go downhill quickly.

  97. Icontroltherobots*

    People who have been asked to take on more responsibility without more pay/title change:

    I would love any advice/stories/tales of caution from the gallery. My grand boss sent out an email with a “search” for a “lead” with a job description that was very much a managerial position. This job is alot more hours/stress/responsibility but a very good step forward.

    The team was given the option to apply, if no one was interested, they would post that exact job description and hire externally.

    I was informed very quickly, that this was not a promotion, there was no more money and the person who “wins” the position would be required to work extensive overtime.

    I need to decide if it’s worth the “experience” to essentially tank my family/social life for the next 2-3 years while I grow into the role.

    1. ArtK*

      I wouldn’t take it, personally. The company isn’t willing to pay for the work and that’s a bad sign. This is really similar to the “should I ask for a pay cut” discussion. Taking this job is essentially taking a pay cut.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Guessing that if (when) they post the job externally, it will have to pay more just to get the right candidates in the door even if it takes a few people turning down the salary for them to figure it out.

      Definitely sounds like a losing proposition for an internal candidate, I wouldn’t do it.

  98. rez123*

    I’ve been checking some job listings lately and noticed a few that shounded interesting. One was posted 3 weeks ago and the application deadline was 30th of september. It was a regular office job (not management or higher postition).
    I dunno…this was a bit of a yellow flag for me that there was such a long application period and I don’t even know why it was a turn off. Any thoughts?

    1. RabbitRabbit*

      It could be that the funding won’t be open until that point due to bureaucratic issues, and they’re at least getting out ahead of the need for new personnel?

  99. New home builder*

    I swear this is a mostly work related question, just not my work.
    My husband and I are building a house, the building company has three full time guys on the crew and sub-contracts our things like electrical. We’ve gotten to know the three full-time guys pretty well and are really pleased with the craftmanship they have put in and the small suggestions for tweaks to the house design (things like hey you might be happier with this window a foot higher or the landing to the stairs a little wider). One of the guys is the company owner and he’s really great about telling us who the suggestion came from if it’s not from him. We’d like to do something to recognize how awesome the other two guys on the crew are and to say thanks for the extra thought they put in beyond just building what was in the plans.
    My husband thinks that tipping them $100 each would be a good recognition but I’m not sure. It seems a little strange. Anyone have any ideas on a better way to recognize them or why/why not tipping would be appropriate.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Sure, tip them — they’ve been awesome, so why not so your appreciation? (Although I’d check with the company to make sure it’s allowed.)

      I might tip substantially more than $100, though. It sounds like this is a multi-hundred-thousand-dollar job and the workers are putting weeks or months of work into your home. I have no idea what amount is right, but I think I’d be aiming for $500 or more for each worker.

    2. seahorsesarecute*

      A friend of mine went through a months-long reno on her home, for many not originally up to code reasons. After it was all said and done, they hosted a big thank you party for the crew and all their families. The crews loved a rare chance to show off to their families what they do all day (there were many before and during pictures on display). And she’s a demo for a company that sells personalized items, so every family got generous party favors, I think picnic thermal bags filled with treats the whole family could enjoy.

      They made a big deal out of thanking the crew AND their families for all their hard work and it sounded like it was really appreciated by the crew.

  100. mliz*

    My manager is overloading me with work and I need some scripts of how to deal with that.

    I’m salaried and exempt. We’re understaffed at the moment, so I’m willing enough to take on extra work, but I currently have a lot of high priority, high volume, high stress projects on my plate and my manager keeps adding things with high priority.

    I have told her outright that I’m at full capacity and that we need to re-prioritize my tasks if she adds more, but nothing is happening. Of course no one can create additional staff where there is no budget (one colleague will return from maternity leave at part time soon, which will be a blessing, and another part timer will come back from FMLA soon) and none of the tasks are doing themselves. But I’m skating dangerously close to a burn out, I can’t take any time off because see short staffing above and I can’t keep going like this.

    Does anyone have any scripts on how to make it really obvious that this can’t continue? She’s not a very good manager in general, but this is what’s breaking me. (I’m looking for a new job, but I’m in a specialized role and summer is a bad time for us to look, and I’m limited in geography for family reasons.)

    1. It's me*

      Jane,
      While Lucinda and Fergus have been out I have been quite busy with many projects. I’d like to outline them and discuss what can reasonably be accomplished by one person as I am not able to complete them all alone.
      You have assigned me the following tasks in order of importance:
      1. llama bathing
      2. llama grooming
      3. cleaning my workspace
      4. llama walking

      At this time, I can only reasonably accomplish 1-3 considering my [list of other administrative tasks]. I will not be able to walk the llamas. I am doing my best to not get burnt out and would like to discuss taking XX days off once Fergus returns to work.

      1. mliz*

        Thanks! (sorry, I was called away yesterday because of course I was and then had a migraine at night)
        I tried something similar, but without the list (because we have a list, sort of), but maybe I need to be firmer with this indeed. I will try.

    2. Ender*

      When I get overloaded I lost my tasks and estimate time needed for each. Then I put them in what I think are priority order and sit down with boss and go through it. Sometimes he will rearrange things a little and on occasion will tell me I’ve got too much or too little time in for something or agree with me to cut down hours to reduce detail on something but I’ve never had a boss tell me I just have to get it all done in unrealistic time. Having mostly accurate estimates of time needed that you can explain if asked is crucial to this though.

      1. mliz*

        Hm yes, but this isn’t working so well here. I mean I can certainly do this for some things, but for others I’m too dependent on others to do their jobs.
        But maybe I can modify this in a good way, thanks.

  101. MassholeMarketer*

    After job searching since March, I FINALLY received a job offer on Friday… but it was way below what I make now, let alone what I was looking for. I ended up using the offer to help myself with another position I’ve been interviewing for and ultimately decided to turn down the offer in order to see out this other position.
    I had my second interview with this other position yesterday and I haven’t felt this good about a job since my current job’s interview a few years ago. I’m hopeful but staying cautious.
    Now just waiting to hear if I go to the third and final round… What should I expect in an interview with the company’s president?

  102. long time (almost) first time*

    I just got a job offer! Hooray!

    …but I got a bit too excited and told the hiring manager on the phone that I could start the day before I have another commitment, which I realized immediately after getting off the phone with her, so I had to send an immediate “oops” email. I think it’ll be fine, they seem very nice, but still.

    Anybody else have a good “hang-up-slap-forehead” stories?

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      I definitely in an overexcited way told my current boss I could start my job a week sooner than I ended up starting, and had to push it back because I couldn’t give my then-boss notice for several days! It happens, and most of the time is completely fine :)

  103. Feeling lost*

    Has anyone ever regretted turning down a job? How did you mentally move on from it?

    I turned down an interview offer at a major organization in my field a few weeks ago. They were looking to hire someone ASAP. My mentor connected me to the hiring manager, and I was one of their top candidates right away. I was CONVINCED at the time that this role was not a good fit for me and made the decision to decline the final interview. It wasn’t until about two weeks ago that I realized what a mistake that was, and that I could have been very happy with the position. Rationally, I know I just need to move on and keep chugging along, but I am having a hard time moving on mentally and forcing myself to keep applying to more jobs. Any advice?

    1. El*

      I think something in your gut told you that the role wasn’t the right one for you. What made you so convinced that it wasn’t the best fit for you?

      1. Feeling lost*

        The role was very similar to my current job – the duties are similar and the client base is practically the same. I’m feeling disconnected and burnt out from my current job, which was why I felt I shouldn’t do the same job in another organization. But I’ve come to realize that, although the job itself wasn’t exciting to me, it’d be a huge step up to work for this very prominent organization (rather than the small and dysfunctional office that I work for now). It would look great on my resume and would make my subsequent job searches much easier

    2. Chaordic One*

      Many years ago I applied for a dream job as a receptionist at a well-known national magazine. Nothing happened and I made plans to go back to school. Then, six months after the application I get a call for an interview. But I turned it down and went back to school. I often wondered how it might have turned out. I worry that it might have been like “The Devil Wears Prada.” OTOH, maybe I would have been the new Miranda Priestly.

      Seriously, at that point in my life I was very immature and didn’t have much perspective on the world of work, so I can’t imagine how it might have turned out. Sometimes I think I’ve got it reasonably together at this point in my life, but I’m over 40 and starting to think that I’m being perceived as being less desirable than younger applicants.

  104. MissGirl*

    I applied and was rejected at a company who is doubling their workforce in the next two years and has three locations. I’m wondering if I should continue to apply or give up.

    I applied first in March and was called back within a few days for a phone screen with a recruiter. The screen went well and he asked me if I was interested in another position besides the one I applied for.

    The interview with position A went well but I was put of by the 60 to 80 hour weeks. I know that came off in the interview. They never rejected me officially.

    Position B was the most awkward interview of my life. The manager was oddly adversarial. I got nervous and talked too much. She rejected me only a few hours later. I still sent a follow-up email and asked if there was anything I could work on. She cited being more concise.

    Fast forward to last week. I applied to another position and received a form rejection the next day. Fair enough because I wasn’t 100% fit.

    This week I saw a position posted that I was a far better fit for than any of the others. Since it was at a different location, I gave it a try. Form rejection two hours later.

    Do you think the first two interviews have blacklisted me from the company? I have no intention of applying again any time soon but perhaps next year. I would write them off but I’m trying to break into a new industry and they’re rapidly growing.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I would wait until you’ve gotten more experience and can really make a strong appeal for your candidacy. You might not be “blacklisted” at this company but it sounds like potentially their notes on you could use some time to fade into the background, and maybe in the future you can talk about how things are different for you (not that you really need to much, it sounds as if the positions were just not a good fit). Maybe work on your poker face or expressing constructively that news you hear about a particular position during an interview is not what you expected?

      1. MissGirl*

        Definitely agree with being better at holding the poker face. I need to keep the mindset of selling myself even if I’m not sure I want the job. Better to reject than be rejected.

        I actually have the years of experience for the position but in teapot painting and I want to move to plate painting.

  105. Pineapple Incident*

    I’m scheduled today for an interview for a position within my department that would be a promotion. I feel a little icky because I want the extra money and I’m already doing about 90% of the job, but I’m applying for other things because I found out our management team recently screwed over a coworker who is on leave, who now won’t be coming back. Need some good vibes, and to keep rationalizing that I’m okay enough with this.

  106. Gail Davidson-Durst*

    I have a job interview in an hour! I’m 99% sure to get it, and want to take it, but I’m still nervous. The last time I had an in-person interview was about 20 years ago!

    5. Gail Davidson-Durst*

      It went really well! I felt like I got some good intel and people weren’t trying to blow smoke up my skirt. There are some real challenges at this company, but the culture seems great and the challenges seem more exciting thank disheartening to me. Plus boss, grandboss, and even great-grandboss are cool people.

  107. Environmental Compliance*

    How long do you give a contractor to respond back to a request for a quote/information before you move on?

    I am in charge of scheduling contractors for quite a few things at work (most recent has been pest control), and there’s been one that has taken nearly two weeks to respond in any way, shape, or form. I don’t expect the quote immediately, but I do want some sort of response that yes, they have received my request.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Oof I would give up – my office says to give about 5 business days since that usually gives the office enough time to respond, or route to someone in another office if the wrong contact was reached for a request. I would consider this situation ‘no response’ or ‘no bid’ depending on what your processes require.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        The most annoying part is that this particular contractor currently works for us! I wanted to expand services. Let me give you more money!!!

        I was thinking 5 business days and then cut it, because I was pretty miffed at the timeline, but didn’t want to be too harsh.

        1. KR*

          This is literally my worst pet peeves trying to get quotes for parts and contract work. I work for a HUGE company with multi million dollar budgets for my projects. Please please just let me give you money! Just! Work! With! Me!

          Signed, I’ve been trying to get a quote for a specific company for months and they aRE SO SLOW I WANT TO FLY TO THEIR OFFICES AND DO THIS IN PERSON

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            It’s so frustrating! This company finally got back to me earlier today after I reminded the technician that there are many pest control companies in the area, we really don’t need to use them. *throws hands in air*

    2. Jaydee*

      I think it depends on how urgently you need the work done and what your options are. Is this general monthly spraying for bugs, or did a family of llamas move into your warehouse and you want them gone yesterday? If it’s more urgent, you move on faster. Are there two pest control companies in your area, or twenty? The more options you have, I think the less you put up with delays. Have you worked with this contractor before and know they’re good and reasonably priced? Maybe you accept a little less responsiveness because you know you’ll get good quality work for the price.

      If you haven’t followed up with them since your initial contact, I’d do so once to say “Hey, I contacted you on [date] to get more info about your rates and get a quote for llama extermination. I haven’t heard anything back from you to even acknowledge you got my initial contact. We really need this work done, so I’m going to move on and seek out a different option if I don’t hear back from you by [date].”

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        This work is ASAP because we’re behind in compliance, unfortunately. We have lots of companies in the area, including one that got back to me within a day. I’m not convinced this particular company knows what they’re doing with what the technician told me about gnats either.

    3. Construction Safety*

      Well, you could ask them when they’ll get the quote to you & then move on after that date.

      1. JessicaTate*

        I would agree with this. Either give them a deadline to respond with the original request or, if it’s a personal interaction, ask them when they’ll get it to you. As someone on the busy contractor side, a deadline helps it move to the top of the pile – either to get a quote out or to decide we don’t have capacity for the work.

        In this case, maybe a follow up message that gives a deadline: “I’d love to keep working with you guys on this, but I need a quote by Monday for this new scope or I’m going to have to look for another vendor on this one. Time is really an issue here.”

  108. Jaydee*

    I have worked for the same organization for approximately 10 years since I graduated from law school, and I went to law school straight out of college. In a couple of weeks I’ll be starting a new job working for a government agency. I’m really excited because it’s related to one of the areas of law I’ve enjoyed the most in my practice (think, I’ve done teapot litigation and education about problems with the teapot system, and now I’ll be working for an agency tasked with improving parts of the teapot system and making sure people who need teapots have access to teapots). This will be more of a project management type role, in which I will be overseeing a statewide program of this agency. There will be be things like reviewing contracts and overseeing the contractors, writing reports, preparing a budget, handling referrals to this program, etc. I have experience with some of these things on a smaller scale because I’ve been a lead worker on some grants my current employer received, so I’m doing a decent job of fending off imposter syndrome – I know I have the background to succeed at this job, but it’s a definite jump in terms of responsibilities, and I know there will be a learning curve!

    One thing I’m really worried about is that I tend to overextend myself, overpromise, and take on too much. I’m a perfectionist and a people pleaser, and no these are decidedly not strengths! I burned out hard a few years ago and have really struggled to come back from that. I know a mix of factors played into it, including personal traits, job responsibilities that weren’t a good fit for me, and some dysfunctional management styles. I’m working hard on the things I have control over, but I’m TERRIFIED that I’ll screw things up at my new job. I was forthcoming about some of this during my interview. Not the burnout part, but the overextending myself part and the things that I’ve found work well for me as far as my working style and learning how to prioritize things I’m working on. They hired me, so I’m trying to remind myself that must mean they think my answers were okay and that if just stick with what I told them I’ll be a good fit.

    What I’m hoping you beautiful people can help with are:
    1. What tips do you have in general for someone starting a new job after a decade in a previous job?
    2. What tips do you have for building good habits from the start (and maybe shedding some bad habits picked up to cope with workplace dysfunction or parts of a past job that were a poor fit)?
    3. What tips do you have for moving into a project management role from more of a worker/lead worker role?

    Any advice or guidance will be greatly appreciated!

    1. JessicaTate*

      One thing that I find helpful in the “good habit” and “project management” side of things is creating some kind of work flow / time allocation calendar for myself (and/or my team). I tend to look at a month-by-month level: For Project X, charting out major things that are happening each month: In Sept, Oct, Nov, etc. Then for Projects Y and Z and LMNOP. Then, under that, I can think about how much of my time is going to be needed within each month (roughly). If you add that up with your vacation/holiday time, other time that gets eaten up at work, etc., you start to get a picture of which months you might be getting overextended and where you might have capacity. So, when Bob asks if I can plan the holiday party, and I see that December is already at max capacity for my time, I have a data-driven reason to say, “Sorry, I really can’t take on one more thing that month.”

      (Caveat: I’m not in a strictly project management role, so I imagine real PMs have more expert advice and mechanisms about that type of thing. But my back-of-the-envelope version has worked really well for my purposes.)

      1. Jaydee*

        I like that! It’s a good way of getting a big picture overview of the things that are coming up. Also, I think this would be really helpful for improving my ability to estimate how long things will take.

    2. Gail Davidson-Durst*

      Congratulations! It sounds like an exciting new role!

      One thing I do is try not to say yes in the moment. If it’s my boss asking for something I’ll say something like “let me look at my current commitments and see how it fits in,” and if it’s a peer, honestly i just tell them to send me an email about it with more details, and this weeds out at least 50% of the asks. Things “important” enough to ask me to do wind up not being important enough for them to actually follow through with an email!

      1. Jaydee*

        This is something I used to be terrible at. I would say yes if I found something interesting or important or if I thought it was something that my boss or colleague really wanted me to do. I think maybe I thought these were once-in-a-lifetime opportunities or that if I said no my boss would be disappointed in me. I’ve learned over time that there are ways to show enthusiasm without committing to doing a thing you’ll later regret and that bosses actually respect it if you use phrases like “let me look at my schedule and see how that fits in.”

        I love the idea of asking peers to email me with more details. That takes the next action off my plate (looking at my schedule and getting back to them) and puts it on theirs (sending me an email with more info). Honestly, I kind of love it for vague requests from bosses too. I’ve had some supervisors who will have an idea pop into their head and they make this really vague request that seems to come from left field. And often they really haven’t taken the time to think it through, so asking some followup questions helps them work through it and makes my eventual response actually responsive to what they want.

  109. Psyched Out in the South*

    What advice do y’all have for getting over the angst of trying to put together a solid job application without psyching yourself out? I keep getting so hung up on making sure it’s perfect so much that that I’ve missed out on applying entirely.

    This week i found a couple of openings that I’m qualified for at a great company and I don’t want to make that mistake again. Advice? Support? Commiseration?

    1. Kir Royale*

      Do you have someone who could look at it with a critical eye and help you highlight your strengths? I helped my sister out recently and helped her describe her strengths as she was stuck like you

    2. Nant*

      i feel this so bad /o\ the way I tend to deal with it is to set myself a deadline as to when I’m going to send it. Say, if I start the app on Day 1, I tell myself it must be sent by Day 3, whatever state it’s in. Or if it’s a CV/resume plus cover letter job, I create a stock template for both, and just alter it as needed when applying, so I don’t end up working for hours on a ton of cover letters for each separate job.

      good luck!

    3. Ali G*

      Let go of perfection! You don’t know what their idea of “perfect” is, so don’t try to meet that standard. Just make sure your application is the best reflection of you and your ability to do the job.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        This! A cover letter is a perfect example of a situation where good enough really is good enough. It needs to be well-written, free from errors, and present a strong argument as to why you’d be good at the job. That’s it. It doesn’t need to be perfect, and it doesn’t need to make an airtight case of why you’d be AMAZING!!!1!! at the job. It just needs to get you an interview.

        Which means, depending on the job and the applicant pool, you’re aiming to be in probably the 80th percentile of applicants. You don’t need to be the absolute best at this point, you just need to be *one* of the best. So don’t spend too much time wordsmithing or going through and adding (or removing) Oxford commas and whatnot. Get the content in place, get someone else to proofread it and check the structure and flow, and then send it in. Then, as Alison always advises and as I am never able to actually do, let it go. :)

    4. nep*

      Commiseration here. I feel the tension and back/headache rising and intensifying as I’m preparing a resume and cover letter–pain always worse for jobs I really would love to land.
      It helps me to go away from it from time to time and read through some posts online (including AAM, of course) about the process, for some inspiration…or just walking away from the computer altogether for a bit.
      No application is perfect. Rare is the candidate who’s going to tick every single box for an employer. Let things flow. Let a bit of your personality shine through.
      Breathe. All the best and keep us posted.

  110. Nita*

    Our junior staff keep leaving. They’re not leaving right away, but 1-2 years, and they’re gone. That’s about how long it takes to get them up to speed on the different aspects of our work, so we keep having to hire new people and start the training over. We’ve been scrambling to cover jobs as it is, and then two more people left just in the last month.

    I wonder what my department could be doing better… work at their level is pretty stressful – a lot of it is outside in any weather, the hours can vary from 7-3 to 9-5, the locations can vary, and worst of all, we’re always just a little short-staffed so sometimes people find out they’re needed at a field site the afternoon before. There’s reporting involved too, but it’s hard to plan ahead with this setup. Management is trying to hire a few more people so everyone has more stability in their schedule and more time in the office, but because we keep losing staff, it’s always one step forward and two steps back. We can’t go ahead and hire “just anyone” ASAP either, that’s been tried before and backfired.

    I don’t know the salaries, but I suspect management isn’t underpaying anyone. We do have a high cost of living area, and a lot of new staff are from other states to start with, so they just go home when they decide they’ve had enough. I’m sure this is a factor, but I also wonder whether there’s anything my department is doing wrong that’s shooting us in the foot when it comes to staff retention.

    1. McWhadden*

      Do you conduct exit interviews? I know people aren’t always honest and really there is no benefit in them being honest (you could accidentally burn a bridge.) But you could ask targeted questions. “What about this new opportunity attracted you?” To see what they are leaving for.

      But, really, varying hours, not knowing where you’ll be until the day before and those other things just seem like things people get tired of pretty quickly. If those are things that can’t be changed then it may just be the nature of your work to have high turn-over. Stability and the option to plan around their day are things most people look for in their work.

      1. Nita*

        I agree this is a huge problem and probably the biggest reason people don’t stay long. I’ve been there and remember very well how disruptive and stressful it is. It is something that can be changed, but only once we have enough staff to give everyone a break between these assignments. I hope that happens soon…

      2. ..Kat..*

        What one to three things could we have done differently that would have made you want to stay with our company?

    2. Anonforthis*

      Some jobs kind of have an expiration date. I don’t think it’s that unusual to have entry level-ish jobs turnover every 1-2 years because most people move on from those jobs once they get work experience.

      The factors you describe also are probably not helping – I wouldn’t want to work a varying hours job where I’m short staffed and locations are always changing.

      You may want to focus on transition planning as well, and kind of anticipate that these positions might always have this kind of turnover – assuming, of course, that you have done your due diligence and there isn’t some other problem in the department (problem manager?) that you’re not seeing.

      1. Nita*

        Agreed. When you come in with the expectation of advancing in your career, you don’t want to spend months outside pushing buttons on a meter. This is supposed to be the kind of thing all the junior staff do *sometimes*, but with progress toward working on the bigger picture and advancing. It just seems like a vicious cycle because it’s so hard to pull anyone off field assignments when there aren’t enough people.

        I don’t think it’s a problem manager. We did have a problem with sending people off with not enough training, but seem to be getting a handle on that in the past year. Just hoping we’ll finally get to the point where we have more people than assignments, not the other way around.

    3. Tara S.*

      I got asked about this by some former coworkers after I left an entry-level position at their org after two years (I am still friendly with the office, we all work on the same Uni campus). They asked why they couldn’t seem to keep someone in the role for more than two years. I told them: it doesn’t pay enough to stay long-term. There was also no progression plan. After two years, my salary was getting me by but with not a lot of room in the budget. I asked to be promoted, think Admin II to Admin III. My boss was supportive, but grand-boss said no. That was what triggered me to start job searching. Even if you are paying “market-rate”, you can’t blame people for leaving an entry-level position to try and make more money.

      1. Nita*

        That might be it. There are promotions and regular raises, but maybe it’s just not enough to make up for the hectic environment.

    4. WellRed*

      They are gonna need to pay more to correct the staffing and other issues to reduce turnover. But as others have said, some jobs are meant to be 1 to 2 year stays.

      1. Nita*

        Definitely. These are not meant to be dead-end jobs though… most of the people here started at entry level like that, and stuck with it. I think the workload is just too high for the new hires to feel like they’re making any progress.

    5. Mazzy*

      Have you done salary reviews? I know middle aged people who think $45K is still a great entry level salary for a college grad, not realizing that it’s wildly different from what it was 20 years ago. That was like $65K then. And now they have student loans on top of the COLA increases. It may just not be worth staying financially, or even feasible.

      1. Nita*

        That’s not me, the higher-ups do it. Maybe salary is a factor to some extent. It’s really expensive just to live here, and student loans… yeah.

    6. you don't know me*

      Aside from the need for more money, growth, or a steady schedule…what are the managers like? At an old job we had a really high turnover with the younger, entry level workers and we didn’t know why. Finally at an exit interview one of them was brutally honest. The manager of that group was a total a-hole and this guy listed in great detail all of the ways in which manager was awful. So then we went and ask some other people who had left our department but were still in the company. Every one of them said the same thing. They put in their year and got out as soon as they could after that. No amount of money could have made them stay.

      1. Nita*

        The managers are great. I’m pretty sure none of that is going on, thank goodness. We do have a bit of a problem with management structure – there’s no strict chain of command, so everyone could have several managers assigning work to them. We do have a process for making sure everyone’s workload is visible to the team, and keep telling people that it’s OK (and a good thing) to say no when they’re overloaded. I haven’t noticed any problems with people telling me they can’t take on my requests lately.

        1. Nita*

          I mean – they’ve had no problem saying no to my requests, so they’re not feeling pressured to take everything on and say nothing.

          1. Jaydee*

            I would not assume that, just because they’re saying no to some of your requests, they aren’t feeling intense pressure to take on a much higher workload than they’re comfortable with. Especially with multiple different managers potentially assigning work to them. You might be the manager they feel most comfortable saying no to. Or they might be saying no far later in the process than they should. Like, the managers expect them to say no when they realize they’ve gone from green to yellow and they’re saying no after they’ve gone from yellow to DANGER RED.

    7. Nacho*

      Pretty much by definition, if people are leaving and you don’t want them to, you’re probably underpaying them. It’s possible their salary is comparable to similar jobs in your area, but things like constantly being short staffed, varying schedules, early hours, and stressful work might mean you need to offer more than similar jobs to in order to keep your workers.

      That or provide a realistic plan for advancement, where your entry level workers stay on because they know they’ll be promoted soon if they do a good job and stick with the poor conditions.

    8. Girl friday*

      Are you hiring for experience? I am betting your company isn’t, and is seen as “experience” by others. Retention bonuses and min. exp. expectations could help.

  111. Gaia*

    You all might remember that my super awesome secondment that guaranteed me I wouldn’t end up without a job….is now leaving me without a job. Well, that date is in two weeks. I am increasingly frustrated that they can include that promise in the offer letter but it isn’t a contract because it also has an “at will” statement. Worse, everyone agrees this isn’t a reflection of me or my work and the company isn’t in financial trouble – it is because I did a really great job and showed that Project X wasn’t ready to be released amf so even though my work isn’t done, the delay meanz they don’t need me right now and weren’t sure where else to put me.

    I talked to our CEO and to his credit he seemed surprised and upset (he’s several levels above me so I didn’t expect he’d have known but he was familiar with my work and he promotes a culture where it wasn’t weird to talk to him about this). He did promise to make sure there wasn’t an unpursued option, but I’m not sure that will change anything in the next two weeks.

    Worse, there’s a great role doing exactly what I do now but in a different function at this company…. but it wont be available for 8 weeks so at best I leave, take severance, all of my options cash out and I come back in 8 weeks but take a huge hit on options (which sucks as our stock has skyrocketed). Or I don’t and stay unemployed.

    Ugh.

    1. OtterB*

      Could there be an option of remaining on the company books but taking unpaid leave until the other role is available? That leaves you without an income and so is worse in some ways than having severance, but would avoid the hit on the options (and potentially, later, on other things that depend on company seniority).

      1. Ali G*

        When I was on severance at Old Toxic Job, I was technically still on payroll (and the health plan). Maybe if you take installments rather than a one-time payment that could keep you “on”.
        OR
        Could you interview now for the job and if they offer it to you then take unpaid leave as OtterB says until it starts? Seems like they would want to work with you to keep you on and not screw you over (again) in the process.

      2. Gaia*

        I asked but was told that wasn’t an option because there is always a possibility that the other role could go to someone else (seriously unlikely since 1. the role was created after my conversation with the hiring manager alerted him to the fact that I needed a new role and 2. there is literally no one else in this company that would even be moderately interested in what I do).

        It is hard to see a company I’ve so long admired act in a way so counter to everything they’ve always done before.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          Are these “possible” other candidates on their way out of the company? If not, the company needs to support you, the person they lied to, and give you the new job.

          1. Gaia*

            These “possible” other candidates aren’t even real. They are potential people that may, might, maybe apply if we post it on the public career site. No one (not exaggerating) internal could do this job. Nor would they want it.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      8 weeks is nothing, especially if you subtract any severance pay. Your company should be eating the cost of having you sit on the bench for 8 weeks. This is something that needs to be brought up to the CEO, and you need to get him to champion your moving into this new role. Tap into his being upset, and get him to make it happen.

  112. Swinburne*

    I’m in a very good position of having interviewed with two really interesting companies. Both seem like genuinely interesting, challenging positions. At Company A I’d get to work on a variety of clients, potentially including a client I worked with previously, as well as really fun, innovative work. At Company B I’d be surrounded with lots of smart people (some of which I’ve worked with in the past) and manage my own team for the first time. They are also in a major growth phase and it seems like a good time to join.

    The catch is that the Company A position could potentially be a month to two months out, with no guarantee it will actually be a good fit for me (they are still trying to figure out if this is a more junior or senior position). Company B is hiring on a fast track (they asked if I could start immediately). And because I’m “ambitious”, I’m getting married September 2nd which applies some extra time crunch pressure.

    Do you think it would be kosher for me to write Company A an email that says something like, “I’ve been speaking with other opportunities, but I’m still very interested in the work Company A does. I know that last time we spoke the position was still a couple months out, but do you have a better sense of your timeline yet?”

    My mentor feels that Company A has a reputation for being very picky about the fit of their personnel and if they cannot commit, I may be better off applying in a couple years. I don’t favour this opportunity – I just kind of want all of the information possible. What do you think?

    For context, I’ve been in my field for seven years and this move will make my fourth job. After interviews I feel really good and have had some strong indicators that both companies are interested, but neither is a done deal by any means.

  113. Beancounter in Texas*

    I drafted this for Alison, but I feel the readers may be a better resource.

    My company is experiencing some seriously fast-paced growth. As part of this growth, my department has also migrated from a small business accounting package to an enterprise resource planning package and we’ve had some bumps along the switch, on top of a learning curve. The whole company is stressed, and our department feels overloaded. We’ve been instructed we must work a minimum of 40 hours a week and we have permission to work as much as overtime as we want. I guestimate one over-achieving colleague works 50+ hours every week. Because of the migration, I am now three weeks behind my regular work and a day or two behind with the migration work. I expect to catch up. We have one temporary employee helping out, but she’s been assigned some daily work our supervisor normally handles. We’ve told our boss many times that we needs more people, but apparently they’re doing analysis to determine how many people we need to hire. In the meantime, we’re just working as much as we can.

    Then there’s George Wickham. He’s been on staff about two years. About six months ago, our work was shuffled to take some tasks off of his plate so he could catch up. I don’t make it a habit to check on his work, but when I’m working on shared workbooks, I notice that his work is outstanding, as far back as a year or more. He sits right next to me, in an arrangement where I can see his monitors, and it appears that he works on the minimum daily stuff that needs to be done. This has been his habit for a while and he’s shared his frustration that he was sold on a job far different from what he’s doing, but he declines to job hunt for something more suitable or talk to our boss about his frustration. Since I’m his desk neighbor, he’ll ask me for help on his work, but he doesn’t follow all of my instructions that will help him resolve his problem. I get the feeling that if the task isn’t easy or simple to do, he avoids it. He clearly is not a fit for this job and I used to encourage him to pursue his dream of being in the financial sector (he knows all of the details of the path he needs to take), but now I’m kinda wishing he’d be replaced instead, so his work doesn’t just pile up more for us to do, especially since all of our workloads is growing.

    My question is how I can express this to my supervisor or boss without insulting them? I believe they’re aware of his performance issues and for all I know, he’s already on a PIP, and I feel like his performance is none of my business, but me and my colleagues are going to be the ones who suffer if/when his employment ends (whether voluntary or not), as we’d be the ones to have to take on his work, when our own plates are already overflowing. Should I keep my concern to myself and hope things shake out okay? Or could I discreetly express my concern without coming across as a nosy busy-body?

    1. BRR*

      I’m assuming by “his work is outstanding” you mean overdue and not high-quality work (that took me a bit to figure out ha). I would keep the focus on your workload and how things are impacting you. Don’t get into managing another employee, it won’t reflect well on you.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        I figured that should be my course of action, but hearing it from someone else helps. Thanks.

  114. Dzhymm*

    Okay, so recently I asked about a high-school kid who applied for a job. Well, we hired him because he seemed interested and eager. One of my staff is a retired schoolteacher, and he took the kid under his wing and he seems to show promise.

    Next question: are there any “Professionalism 101” resources that I might be able to point him at? It’s clear that he’s never done this before, and I really find myself wanting to say “These are things you’re going to have to know when you go out into the working world”

    A few things jumped out at me:

    (1) When processing him into the payroll system, I asked him for his Social Security number. “I don’t know”, he said. At first I was puzzled; how does one NOT know one’s SS number? Then again, I remember when I was a kid getting the SS number was like a rite of passage, and you memorized it because having one meant you were a Big Person Now. These days when SS numbers are issued at birth I imagine it’s not such a big deal.

    (2) When I asked him about direct deposit information, he handed me a sheet of numbers (not in his handwriting) that didn’t seem to make sense. He said “My parents handle all of this”. Kid, very soon now you’re going to have to handle this on your own…

    (3) When I asked him for an email address he gave me something of the form “trustyteapots@gmail.com”; clearly it was an email he’d set up for one of his little “businesses”. I tried to impress on him that in the working world it’s better to have a personal email address for work purposes rather than something that looks like a side hustle… I’m not sure he got it.

    (4) I suppose I should warn him in advance that his paycheck is going to have taxes taken out of it…

    1. Murphy*

      Just for comparison’s sake, I didn’t know my own SSN until I went through the college application process and had to enter it a bunch of time. I’d seen it before that, I had a job in high school, but I didn’t have it memorized.

      But yeah, some of these things he should know…

    2. Tara S.*

      These are just the kind of things you learn while working! He seems like he’s at exactly the right age to be learning these kind of norms, because really he’s just picking up the “how to be an adult” stuff too. Going away for college was the first time I had to write a check, pay a utility bill, book my own doctor appointments. Some people get it after one try, others need to do a few times before it sinks in. Any advice you can give him is a boon. Also, I would suggest Ask A Manager! I loved reading this website as a way to understand how to act in office situations.

    3. H.C.*

      I’d say the email address is the only one you have standing to advise him on (& explaining the payroll deductions only after he brings it up); everything else feels a bit out of bounds to me, esp since he’s just a high schooler and may not have had to use his SSN or even have his own bank account yet.

    4. Swinburne*

      The only reason I can still recite my SSN is because I needed to clock in and out with it everyday in my first job when I was 16!

      I think you just need to be patient and let him gently embarrass himself a little.

  115. Jessen*

    Ok, interview fashion question:

    I’m aiming at the black pants/blazer level of formality. But in case of second interview, how does the black dress and gray blazer look stack up against that? I feel like gray is more formal than cream, but I could be off base here.

    1. Murphy*

      I think the dress/blazer sounds fine and either gray or cream would work. I feel like I’d prefer gray, but I don’t think that’s because it’s more formal.

    2. Nant*

      Dress blazer sounds good! Both colours sound great – I’d personally go black/grey, but that’s mostly my taste :D

          1. Jessen*

            I have a lot of stuff that juuuust edges towards steampunk without being too over the top. Think keys and cameos and carved lockets and random rock pendants.

        2. That Would be a Good Band Name*

          I have a solar system necklace that I have worn to interviews that I got from thinkgeek(dot)com. I’ve received lots of compliments and it adds color but is still quirky enough that it doesn’t make me feel like I’m wearing something that doesn’t go with my personality.

          Silver is also great. Just wanted to offer a suggestion from another “allergic to colorful” person.

          2. Jessen*

            That does sound cool! I tend to always have a slight “addams family” edge. I’m thinking either a cameo or one of those sparkly rock pieces that are trending now.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m clumsy so I’d probably avoid the cream for fear of getting it dirty/stained/etc on my way to the interview.

      1. Jessen*

        Honestly gray’s just easier to find anyway, and there’s a nice sale on a petite jacket atm that fits my curves well. Good point about cream though.

  116. loslothluin*

    So, I finally have a new job and am moving to a firm closer to the home. It’s not the one I thought I’d get, either, but all of the attorneys in my office have said the new firm attorneys are all “super nice.” Is it weird to feel guilty for leaving a toxic work environment? I swear, I feel so guilty about quitting which is nuts.

    1. Nant*

      Yeah, it’s kind of normal to feel guilty about leaving – especially if your leaving folk you like there! but also, toxic workplaces suck and it’s good you got out of there. congrats and good luck with the new job!

      1. loslothluin*

        It’s like they’re good people but crappy to work for on a daily basis, if that makes sense.

  117. DaniCalifornia*

    Hypothetical situation:
    Currently I’m job searching. I am over my job for many reasons but the main one is my supervisor. (Inconsistent, nepotism, favoritism, not willing to teach or let me grow.)

    But my supervisor has been increasingly talking about moving. At first I thought it was a ‘Oh you know in the future, down the road, 5-10 year thing’ but now it seems like it could be this year/early next. Their child (my lazy coworker) would 100% go with them as they are young and I am 100% certain that the owner would ask me to take my supervisor’s place and pay me her salary. If the main reason I’m leaving a job is my supervisor and they leave, should I still want to leave? Getting her job would be an immediate boost in responsibilities which I am craving, a chance to implement better working standards, increase in pay which would be beneficial since I’m in school. I’m just trying to think it over and wondering if it all happened like I typed above is there something I’m not thinking about?

    1. Holly*

      “I am over my job for many reasons” – sounds like you should be job searching anyway. Make sure you leave on good terms with someone who will be at the company long term if you ever want to come back.

    2. Not All Who Wander*

      How confident are you that they will REALLY leave? I also left my last position because of my supervisor. He had a retirement date set but 1) I wasn’t sure if I could survive another year with him, 2) I wasn’t sure how long it would take the horrible dysfunction he had cultivated to clear, and 3) I wasn’t sure if I believed that he would actually retire when he said he was going to.

      Turned out I was right…he stayed an extra year past when he had said. Taking a different job was a good call.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I am unsure of if they are really leaving at all. The talk has amped-up quite a bit and they just got back from the location they want to move to. Until she puts in her notice I’m going to act like she’s staying forever and am continuing my search.

        It was a hypothetical that my SO threw out to me and I wasn’t sure if I would just stop my job search to see how things ran or if I would continue it. But I’m trying to think of the cons of staying, if out of the blue in 2 weeks my supervisor quit and left, what should I consider?

        1. Combinatorialist*

          I think I would maybe continue your job search but be pickier about it while you see how the supervisor situation really plays out. If you decide to move ships, really do diligence in determining if it is the right ship.

  118. beanie beans*

    New job set me up with all this great ergonomic stuff, except for the chair. :/ I’ve had a ton of wrist pain and it’s only been a few weeks!

    I think it’s the fact that the arm rests aren’t adjustable and my elbows have nothing to rest on, so I’ve got all these pillows rubberbanded to my arm rests and it looks ridiculous. I can adjust my desk to stand, but my back is only up for that an hour at a time (plus, I don’t think it raises tall enough for my 6′ self!)

    Anyone have other ideas? I know the logical thing to do is ask for a new chair, but for various reasons that I won’t go into, I’m ruling that out. Although buying my own and bringing it in may be an option.

    Darn this getting old.

    1. WellRed*

      When it comes to office ergonomics, the chair is typically the most important piece of the puzzle. Ask for a chair. ( I take you at your word you think there are reasons not to).

    2. Windchime*

      At my old job, I had a desk that was permanently raised to a standing position, along with a tall chair. But I am also almost 6 feet tall and it wasn’t quite tall enough when I was standing. Work refused to adjust it, because it was “standard”. (But I’m……not?).

      It sounds like you do need a different chair.

    1. WellRed*

      Fascinating! I have never been offended on the admittedly rare ocassion I have say, a rabbi refuse to shake my hand

    2. President Porpoise*

      I saw that! I remember we had a near-identical letter a year or two ago – lots of people came down against the religious non-hand-shaker.

    3. Carpe Librarium*

      Interesting differences in reporting between the article you linked and the one I saw: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/don-t-cry-don-t-cry-swedish-muslim-woman-details-handshake-case-humiliation
      “The company argued both men and women are treated equally and refusing to shake hands with colleagues of the opposite sex went against its policy, according to The Local.
      But Ms Alhajeh argued in situations where both women and men are present, in order to adhere to the teachings of Islam she greets both in the same manner by placing her hand on her heart and smiling.”

      2. Anonymosity*

        Someone I follow on Twitter posted about this the other day.
        I honestly have no issue with it; I don’t like shaking hands much anyway. You don’t know where they’ve been, and people either cold-fish you or squeeze you to death anyway.

  120. whatarejobsreally*

    woot, open thread \o/

    I only have one short question – when does being careful about job offers devolve into pickiness? I recently turned down three job offers since I was offered them with no interview, low pay and minimal description of job duties. My sister has been ribbing me for being too picky about my job offers, and believes that I need to take any that come my way so that I can have my first paying job, even if it’s in a factory or has a ton of red flags. I didn’t do six years of specialist volunteer work to get a job in a factory! And I have no interest in working for somewhere with a ton of red flags. Am I just being really picky, or does it work to be careful when taking on work?

    1. Ali G*

      No interviews, low pay and no JD? That’s not picky, that’s smart. You likely would have hated those places and would still be job searching anyway. If you can handle not being paid until you get a real job, your sis is totally wrong.

    2. WellRed*

      I think you need to be pickier where you are applying. Three similar job offers so far out if the norm is odd, even for stuff like retail.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Being offered a job with no interview is a freaking communist parade of red flags.

      You are being smart.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      It’s good to be careful and selective when you have the means, but practically not everyone gets to be. I’ve no idea of your circumstances but since a family member is encouraging you to get your first paying job, it might be dependent on whose footing the bills in the interim.

    5. LQ*

      This seems very unusual. Though when the job market is tight employers can start grabbing for anyone they can (this is still a super red red flag!!) so it may be that.

      I do think being really thoughtful about where you are applying will serve you well. That said, if you don’t currently have a job and are living with your sister it’s worth talking about how that will work and what her expectations are.

    6. nep*

      Agree with Ali G–no interview, low pay, and few details about the job? That has to be a no, indeed.

  121. Cheddar makes it better*

    I’ve recently been promoted from peer to manger and it’s definitely been a shift in mindset. I’m very relationship oriented so I’ve actively tried to think more about business implications vs this employee thinks things are unjust so I must calm him down. We all used to joke around throughout the day and I’m trying to pay attention less to the banter so that I’m not perceived as “friend” so much but more work oriented.

    Any advice to make this transition smoother?

  122. Anonymosity*

    I have a phone interview for an editor job later today, with a digital marketing company in StL. I have no experience in marketing specifically, but it sounded like they were looking for someone who wants to learn. I’m kind of surprised they emailed me.

    Their Glassdoor reviews looked okay, but the salary for “editor” was less than what I made at Exjob as an admin, in a higher COL area. I would likely have to live in a craphole to survive and would never be able to save enough to leave. It’s like a trap–I’m either trapped here, or trapped somewhere else. Arrrrrgghhh it feels like I cannot win no matter what I do!

    At least I would be learning something. While starving. :P But the place is a nine-minute walk from one of the metro stations in the Central West End, so if I could find cheap housing on the line, I would not have to drive to work, if fares aren’t too much. And if they don’t mind hiring an ‘old’ — every person pictured on their website looks like a millennial.

    I also applied to a job at the very large impressive aerospace company my friend works for in Denver. I know that would pay enough for me to build my savings back up, but of course, despite the fact he said they were desperate for applicants, I have heard nothing. :P

    1. fposte*

      I’ve been wondering how you were doing. I’m sorry you’re still on the hunt–I hope these pan out.

    2. WellRed*

      Editor jobs often don’t pay well, I think, personally, because companies think everyone wants those jobs. Also, be prepared for it to be less…editorial than you expect. I remember interviewing for lots of editor jobs that were not, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Good luck! You are overdue for a break.

      1. H.C.*

        Yeah, at ex-workplace the editor role was more project management than actual editing/layout work – so might be worthwhile to ask about a breakdown of job duties & where your efforts will be focused.

        1. Anonymosity*

          This would be fine, as PM is something I wouldn’t mind learning, but I think it’s actually editing. Plus writing–the listing said that was about 25% of the role. And I would have to take an editing test.

          The thing is, they want someone who knows AP style, which I’m only vaguely familiar with,but we discussed that. I assured her I learn pretty fast, and I didn’t know anything about Exjob’s industry when I started there either, but I learned really quickly from having it in my face all day. Plus if I have an income again I can get books of AP and Chicago Manual of Style, which are on my wishlist anyway.

      1. nep*

        Huh. Via calendar? (Maybe this is common–? but to me sounds like a crappy way to cancel an interview.)
        So sorry, Anonymosity.

      2. Anonymosity*

        NO WAIT IT WAS AN ERROR

        We talked and it sounded really cool, so I hope they ask me for another interview. She said they usually do three, and at least one virtual for out-of-town folks, though I said I can drive over, no problem.

        I still feel like I would starve and the pay rage is below what I made before (my previous salary is the top end, ugh), but if I learned enough and didn’t mind living in a crappy place for a while, I could maybe leverage that into a job elsewhere eventually.

        2. H.C.*

          fingers crossed for you & hopefully other benefits, incl picking up skills/experience to leverage into your next job, make up for the pay dip.

        3. WellRed*

          Is pay rage a Freudian slip? ; ) If the job sounds good for you, it may be worth, so to speak, the crappy pay. As I recall, you’ve been looking awhile without much luck. I sympathize, though with the pay.

    5. Miss H*

      Can you ask your Denver friend to check into it? Maybe a word from him would bump up your resume in the pile, or maybe something went wrong and your resume never reached the hiring manager.

      1. Anonymosity*

        I applied through their regular website and process, but he also asked me to send him my stuff and he sent it to the hiring manager so I know it got there.

  123. Observer*

    Did anyone see the piece about a woman who got a rejection letter from a company because she has a “suggestive ghetto name”? Just jaw dropping.

    The CEO of the company says that this is NOT their policy, and that even though the email is officially from someone who actually is an employee, that person has nothing to do with hiring. He also claims that their Indeed account was hacked, but Indeed says they see no evidence of hacking.

    1. EmKay*

      Yes! That was a trip. And apparently she is not the only person to receive that email either, others received the exact same.

    3. fposte*

      The comments on The Root are very funny.

      I think it’s possible that it was somebody else at the employer who tossed the guy’s .sig in there, but I don’t believe for a minute that there was hacking.

      1. Anonymosity*

        I don’t either. That’s a go-to backpedal when a jerk gets caught posting something gross.

  124. Ali G*

    I have TWO interviews next week!!!!!! AHHHAAAHAHAHAAAA!!!!! <— don't even know what that means.

    I just had to scream that into the universe. Thank you.

    Now a question: Can I wear the same suit to interview at the same place but with different people? If I make it through to the next round after my interview on Tuesday (for a job I really, really, want), I will be invited back to meet with the CEO, who makes the ultimate decision. Tuesday I am meeting with 3 members of the Executive Committee (and maybe HR although I already had a phone screen with her). I only have one suit that fits, and this is definitely a suit-type interview (executive level position). Would it be OK to wear it twice, just with a different shell and accessories? It's a basic black suit, so nothing memorable or different about it.

    I'm starting to study up for both interviews now (other one is Monday). It's going to be a long weekend!!

  125. EmKay*

    Due to illness and other circumstances, I’ve been unemployed for roughly 2 of the last 3 years. I gradually maxed out my credit cards during that time, and got way behind on all my other bills. I have a job since April but I’m still struggling to make all the necessary payments to catch up, and my parents have been helping me out monthly. Well my dad has decided he doesn’t want to do it piecemeal anymore, he’d rather get me down to zero everywhere in one fell swoop. So tomorrow my parents are coming for a “visit” and we are going to look over all my bills together.

    I’m 38 years old. I don’t quite know how to describe the shame I’m feeling, and anticipate to feel tomorrow, but trust me when I say it is substantial.

    1. Amber Rose*

      The first step when dealing with debt is to forgive yourself. As a society we tend to tie up a lot of our self worth in our financial situation, but life is neither that simple nor that clean.

      Shit happens. Be kind to yourself, and be grateful you have a caring support network. Nobody goes it all alone.

      2. EmKay*

        I think that’s exactly where the shame is stemming from. I feel like an inept kid, and now mommy and daddy have to help get me out of this mess because I can’t do it on my own. Ugh.

    2. Quill*

      The fact that your parents are able (and willing) to help you out speaks volumes to your relationship with them. Be proud that they are willing to be so compassionate – I know many, many people who were raised by skinflints who expected them to be out of the house and paying their own way the day after they graduated high school, and the lack of support obviously sets them up for a long and difficult road to any sort of stable life, financially.

      You’re not the only one, either: my mother has a colleague who lost everything in a messy divorce and spent the last year totally dependent on her parents to make ends meet.

      Quite frankly, it’s not you who should be ashamed that you couldn’t work, it’s our society that should be ashamed for making it so hard for people to survive if they’re too ill to work, let alone plan for their futures. (Though it’s also understandable that you feel this way, given the aforementioned society…)

      1. EmKay*

        Thank you for your kind words. I am indeed lucky to have such a relationship with my parents (and other family in general, but especially them).

    3. Triplestep*

      You did not ask for an illness that would prevent you from working, and you did the best you could to stay afloat.

      Try not to see your parents visit as some kind of indictment of how you’ve handled your finances. They want to help you, but they want to help you in a way that allows them to plan their own finances as well. As a parent to two grown children, I get this. We did not plan to help the older one through graduate school, but we were able to do it and it meant the difference between his attending a good school and a really great school. We set up a two-year arrangement with him and it has not changed, which has made helping him easier for us. Instead my daughter had emergencies come up during her undergrad years which had her coming to us occasionally to increase our financial support. It wasn’t the end of the world, but it’s harder to plan when you’re helping to meet someone else’s unknown financial needs.

      I think after this weekend, all three of you will feel better. It will be hard to get through, no doubt – eyes on the prize.

      2. EmKay*

        Thank you for your perspective. My dad basically said the same: “I don’t want to have to worry about you, so let’s get this done and over with and we can move on.”

        He also said that at his age, his butt was tough fromn getting kicked so often by life, and that at my age, my butt is still tender :D

        *He did not use the word “butt”.

    4. Kathenus*

      Years back my dad helped me get out of credit card debt. I did two things after that to make myself feel better and kind of ‘live up to’ what he had done for me. First, I got disciplined and stayed out of debt. Second, I began putting a small amount of money aside monthly, and after I had saved a few thousand dollars (took a couple years if I recall), I sent him a check to pay him back. He tore up the check and wouldn’t accept it, but I know for a fact that he was happy/impressed that I made the attempt.

      My grandfather used to say that if someone offers you something, accept that they want you to have it, and thank them and graciously take it. Use this as a chance to get a reset and put yourself on a more sustainable path. Having that stability in your life will make you and your parents happier, because most parents really, really want to see their children safe and happy. Good luck.

      1. Kathenus*

        And clarifying that my phrase about getting disciplined refers solely to me, it is absolutely not directed at you or your situation. Rereading my post I was concerned it sounded insensitive, so apologies if it did.

        1. EmKay*

          Oh no, no worries, I didn’t take that as a judgment of my situation, but as a description of your own. And thank you for your perspective as well!

    5. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      To second what everyone else has said–be gentle with yourself! Life happens. As a person who works in consumer lending, let me just say that you are not the first person to have extenuating circumstances that have caused you to accumulate debt, and you won’t be the last. There is no shame to be had here, OP. You are not alone. I hope that after your parents’ visit tomorrow, that your weekend will be stress-free.

    6. Anonymosity*

      It’s okay. I feel your pain. My mum has been paying my bills for the last twenty-one months of unemployment and this isn’t the first time I’ve needed help. I’m much older than you and feel like she ought to be changing my diapers too. :\ They’re doing it because they love you and want to help.

      I think when you’re back on your feet, you might ask if you can pay your dad back, even partially. If they don’t want you to do that, maybe you can help them out someday or get them something nice.

      I dream of a day when I can write my parents a big fat check. Come on, universe.

  126. Piano Girl*

    I am updating my resume and have a question. I was at my last position for almost nine years – save a brief period of three weeks when I was laid off the first time (I was hired back within the month). I was working for a branch of a well-known company that has multiple locations. If I put down the entire time frame (first day as an employee to final layoff) and corporate only verifies my employment from second hire date to final layoff, is this going to send up a red flag? How would you handle this?

    1. Traveler*

      Can you just put two dates under one entry? (May 2001-June 2005) (July 2005-June 2010) I had a job where we had to be rehired every few months for our position and there was a brief period of not working in between. Thats how I handle it and its never come up.

    2. Susan Sto Helit*

      I might present it as either:

      Mar 2009–Jul 2018, Teapots Inc (Mar 2009–Apr 2013; May 2013–Jul 2018)

      or

      Mar 2009–Jul 2018, Teapots Inc (includes 3-week layoff Apr 2013)

      That way you’re covered for whatever they say. Alternatively, can you ask your last company what dates of employment they’re holding for you?

  127. Persimmons*

    Years ago, I was desperate to work at a local company due to its culture, amazing on-site amenities, and cool product portfolio. They had ridiculous standards for application (entry-level people were expected to have at least a Master’s, which was NOT stated in the listings and is absurd in my field) and were ostentatiously snooty in their refusal. The rejection letter could have been written by Regina George.

    They are now in the midst of a giant public meltdown that involves retracting a product. Schadenfreude is strong today.

  128. OhTheBathroom*

    So for the background, I am a woman.

    A few months ago, I was moved from my cubicle to another cubicle across the building. My former cubicle was close to the multi-stall woman’s restroom and I used that location for my abulations. My new cubicle is closest to two single person restrooms, one labeled women and the other labeled men. My question is if I need to go and the single person women’s room is occupied, can I feel OK about using the men’s single person restroom? I feel awkward just hanging around waiting for the women’s room to come free when there is another restroom right there. But I was also feel oddly if I was caught coming out of the men’s room. Should I just suck it up and continue across the building if the women’s room nearest to me is not free? Help!

      1. A username for this site*

        Usually, it’s in the building code, specifying that there must be X number of toilets for men and X number of toilets for women. A law has to be made to amend it to whatever term for “anyone” your state prefers.

        1. Ranon*

          In 2018 the IPC (one of the two plumbing codes commonly referenced in the US) is going to unisex signage for all single occupancy restrooms. I’m genuinely excited about this.

    3. just do it*

      My office has a similar set up: multi-stall women’s bathroom and one single-stall men’s bathroom. The women’s bathroom gets filled up all the time, so I use men’s bathroom pretty frequently. If people see me exiting/entering the men’s bathroom, I just laugh and say there’s a long line at the women’s bathroom, and everyone just nods and laughs along.

      It helps that the men’s bathroom is much nicer than the women’s too!

    5. Rey*

      Can you bring this point (that single-person restrooms don’t need to be gendered) to the building manager’s attention so that they can change the signs on the bathroom?

    6. Kathenus*

      Agree with others that it would be nice if single person were not gendered. To answer your question, when I started at a new job I waited to see the culture. We have one each men’s and women’s single person restroom on my floor and a set on the floor above. On my floor people absolutely use whichever one is open, so I do as well. Upstairs I’m not sure what they do, so I personally only use the women’s upstairs because I’m not sure of the norms for that staff.

    7. OhTheBathroom*

      So after seeing all the responses, I felt empowered to ask the building manager why the single use bathrooms are gendered and he showed me that he has generic, multi-gender restrooms signs to replace the men’s/women’s signs with! He said he just hasn’t had the time yet.

  129. Stephanie*

    Headshot tips? I have to get a professional headshot for work (work is paying for it) and want to make sure it looks relatively decent. I wear light makeup normally (tinted moisturizer, nude lipstick, some eye makeup.).

    2. Tara S.*

      Powder foundation on top so you’re not shiny, a bit of hairspray/preferred grooming product so frizzy hair can be smoothed down. Try on your outfit at home to double check how you’ll look (me, at myself during past photos: whyyyy did you go with that neckline??). Sit up straighter than would feel natural, tuck chin juuust slightly. Best of luck!

    3. Kramerica Industries*

      Wear something that fit in with who you are professionally. I wore a full suit for my headshot, even though I tend to wear nice blouses and such for work. I hate my headshot now because it feels stuffy and I don’t think it’s a good representation of who I actually am.

    4. disney+coffee*

      Definitely wear powder on top of your moisturizer, but make sure to get one that won’t flashback! I recommend Coty Airspun ($5 at Walmart or Amazon) or Laura Mercier ($35 at Sephora). If you don’t you run the risk of looking super shiny. Use dry shampoo about an hour before the headshot to give your hair some volume and to take away some of the oil at the roots, but give it time to sink into your hair. Stick with neutral eye makeup and mascara with a tiny bit of black or brown eyeliner along the lashline, but really don’t go crazy with the liner. Make sure to choose an outfit that won’t wash you out and that compliments your skin tone, hair, and eyes. A crewneck or v-neck neckline works well for headshots. Avoid turtlenecks at all costs. If you’re wearing a jacket, make sure it fits your shoulders more than anything. Spend a lot of time in front of the mirror figuring out what the best angle for your face is and the best way to smile and do a couple dry-runs at home (just set your phone’s camera on a timer). Good luck!

    5. EmKay*

      You will definitely need powder to avoid shine. When applying it, be sure to do it in downward strokes (upward strokes makes the little hairs on your face stand up, and that can show up in HD pictures). Also be sure the powder doesn’t do that weird turn-to-bright-white thing under a flash (take a selfie with flash to verify this).

      Bright lights wash you out, so be sure to wear blush as well. Even if you never do day to day, trust me on this. And make it at least 2 shades darker than you would in the mirror at home. Same with lip colour. You’ll think you look “clownish”, but you won’t in the picture. And you can wipe all that off your face once you’re done :)

      I’d also practice applying the makeup once before the actual shoot. Take selfies with the flash, it’ll give you a decent idea of the result you’ll get from the pro.

    6. JessicaTate*

      When I had mine done, the photographer actually recommended a make-up artist that he worked with for this kind of thing for a small extra fee. I think it was worth it to help me bump up the makeup, still look natural, without looking like a clown. Without that recommendation, I might have asked a friend whose wedding make-up looked great who she used. Or asked my hairstylist if she knew anyone locally that she’d recommend.

  130. Contracting vs Temping*

    I’m currently in a temp position–I was brought on to manage one particular short-term project. It’s basically a contract role, but I don’t have a contract. Do you think it’s okay for me to say “contract” on my resume? To me “temp” roles are associated with stop gaps, administrative help, etc.

  131. Susan Sto Helit*

    I’ve had a friend of a friend email me asking for advice on changing careers.

    She’s been in her current field for about a decade, and has decided she wants to give that up and get into my field – but not just my field, but the most desirable, hard-to-get-into part of my field. She wants to know how to go about it.

    The short answer is that I think she probably can’t. It’s super competitive, and mostly you have to start from the bottom (which would mean a massive, massive pay cut for her) and work your way up…and even then, you’re going to have to either be very lucky or a total rockstar to get into the bit she wants to do. A very few people to manage to just transition in to where they want to be – but they tend to be, again, rockstars, with amazing contacts and some sort of equivalent experience/profile that gets them in the door.

    I can explain all that to her just fine, and that might be enough to give her a reality check…but then again, it might not. And the bigger issue is that even if she were willing to start over and work her way up in a completely new industry, I don’t think she’d be any good at what she wants to do (specifically, I don’t think her personality would be a good fit, and that she’s lacking in the soft skills that are needed for the industry). That feels like a really personal thing to say to someone though, and I’m not sure I’m willing to be that honest with her.

    If she was really determined to attempt to make this change I’d be fine to give her the advice on how to get started, but I’d be very reluctant to give her introductions to my own contacts, which I think is what she wants. Am I approaching this right? Has anyone else here tried to change career after that period of time – did it work out for you?

    1. fposte*

      I think you can stick to information: “It usually takes x years to get from boot boy to butler, and the starting salaries for boot boy are two shillings a year.” Treat it as if it were a stranger–you’re not going to recommend them, you don’t have to invest in whether they can pull it off or not, you’re just telling them how the field works.

    2. WellRed*

      Stick to the facts. You are not hiring her, nor are you responsible for her future success or failure in any way.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      If you think there’s *any* chance at all that she might respond to your informed advice with skepticism (as in, “you’re only telling me this because you don’t want to have to compete with me, because I’ll be so good”), then you might want to consider how you could arrange a series of informational interviews for her from *other* people who will give her the unvarnished truth. If she goes through 3 or 4 of these, and keeps hearing the same thing over and over again, the difficult reality of what she’s aspiring to do is more likely to sink in, and you are less likely to get labeled as “unsupportive.”

  132. hereandthere*

    If you’re contacted post interview about salary requirements, give them and then there is long delay in response – do you assume you won’t hear back?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      No matter what, I always assume I won’t hear back, salary requirements or no. Any time a hiring manager, recruiter, or anybody contacts me, I respond back, and then I hear nothing, I just move on mentally until they contact me again.

    2. Someone Else*

      You should probably be assuming you won’t hear back anyway, if you’re at any stage other than “I will be sending you an offer letter on DATE.” Just from a managing your own expectations standpoint.
      But if you’re asking more as a “is a delay here a bad sign”, to me it’s meaningless. Some places just have slooooooooow processes. Or a critical Leadership person who is necessary to the process and impossible to nail down. Or…yada yada it can take forever for dozens of reasons that have nothing to do with you so there isn’t much point in reading into the delay itself.

  133. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    How far back do you guys go on computer applications/ job history? I keep 20 years of experience on my resumé, but I’ve been in the workforce on and off since the eighties, and some places just keep asking you to detail job after job after job. I usually just keep what I have on my resumé unless my experience is relevant (most of the businesses I worked for back then have seen massive restructuring and I kind of doubt whether anyone would work there who remembers me at all). However, I was made nervous recently by an application website that said something to the effect of “OMITTING ANY INFORMATION FROM YOUR JOB HISTORY CONSTITUTES FRAUD AND WE WILL PROSECUTE TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.” (It was not for a sensitive position, AFAICT. I rolled my eyes and filled it out completely, as it’s not unlikely that I won’t be working with the person who wrote the application. In a worst-case scenario, I would get interview practice and the chance to comment upon this verbiage.)

    1. Traveler*

      I go back 10 years as that’s where the solid experience related to my current career is. I highly doubt a company is going to pursue me with lawyers because I didn’t tell them about my job at a burger joint in high school. IME, most of that language is just to protect them and deter would-be jerks.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it really depends on the circumstances. If someone worked for 20 years once place and 10 years prior at another place, it would make sense to put both workplaces in a job history and/or résumé. But if you’ve worked 15 different places in 30 years, then maybe going back only 20 years might make more sense, especially if the more recent stuff is the most relevant to the job you’re applying for.

    4. Someone Else*

      Was it a government gig? Because that’s mostly when it matters.

      That said, my understanding is there’s a difference between resume and job history. If they’re asking you for a full job history with language like that, that’s what they’re asking for: the complete job history including irrelevant stuff. Whether it’s a reasonable ask is a totally separate issue, but it’s a different question being asked than the question a resume is intended to answer. It makes sense and is appropriate to tailor a resume to a specific position. But that’s not what a full job history is.

  134. Kramerica Industries*

    I was having a casual conversation with my manager when he said that he was talking to another department manager about how I was applying for jobs and how he was “jokingly” like “I don’t understand why Kramer wants to leave for a similar job, the work is meaningful here and the team is great!” To which the other manager said “Because the other job is offering a better title and more money”.

    Awkward.

  135. Lucy Y*

    I’m just venting here, but what do you do about a co-worker (basically a peer although we are in different depts who is obsessed with a promotion at the restaurant down the street. It is a fast food chicken place and you can scan the barcode on the receipt with their app and get points. . It is practically the only place in walking distance, a lot of us grab take out from there. Whenever Caitlynn sees someone with their food, she asks, begs, or even goes through the trash to get the precept and scan it. Apparently, she has even pulled receipts from the restaurants trash can to get extra points. What can I say to her to let her know how seedy and disgusting that is?

    1. fposte*

      This seems more like an individual annoyance on your part than anything you could reasonably ask somebody else to stop, let alone tell her that you find it “seedy and disgusting.” If you don’t want to be asked, tell her not to ask you any more–but don’t tell her not to ask anybody at all, because that’s up to the others and not you.

    2. Murphy*

      I know someone who was like this with coke points…

      Honestly if she’s not your employee, I’d let it go. Even though going through the trash is a bit much.

    3. Susan Sto Helit*

      Don’t say anything – if she wants to go through the trash you can privately think it’s gross, but it’s not really any of your business.

      I’d probably just try to get into the habit of tearing the barcode off the receipt and saving it for her. You might think she’s being ridiculous (it sounds like she is), but take the path of least resistance (the one that doesn’t involve her going through the trash) and try to put the rest of it out of your head. Just another weird co-worker quirk.

    4. beanie beans*

      It sounds pretty weird, but honestly I think it’s one of those things better to just ride out and let it go.

    6. Traveler*

      Tell her to please not ask you anymore, and do your best to find a way to take yourself away from the situation otherwise. Sudden need to go to the printer, talk to Jane in another office, etc.

    8. Snark*

      If she’s directly bugging you about it, I’d say something, but this is one of those things you have no standing and no need to correct. Yeah, it’s more than a bit weird. She’s making a fool of herself. Let your boss handle it, or not.

    9. ..Kat..*

      Well, the appeal of getting something for free can be pretty strong. I have had coworkers like this that I gave my receipts to. If it makes them happy, why not. I remember when I was just starting out, and gas stations often had free glassware give aways in exchange for receipts. My established, glassware owning coworkers gave me enough receipts for a full set. I thought it was fun! And very nice of them. And, I still have one of those glasses! (All the rest have broken.)

    10. The Dark Fantastic*

      Why on earth would you say anything? This isn’t any of your business. If she’s bugging you for receipts, you can politely tell her to stop doing so, but beyond that? Get over it, let it go, mentally roll your eyes when she does it if you must. But don’t tell her how judgemental you are being, that’s your problem not hers.

  136. Delphine*

    Every year we have a summer get-together–the employees of our small company and any family that wants to join. It’s always a lovely way to unwind and talk to people in a more casual setting, and we get to see everyone’s family and kids and get updates on them. This year, the only drinks provided were alcoholic. I’m pretty sure I’m the only one in the office who doesn’t drink. It’s never been an issue before–I don’t think most people even realize I don’t drink, and we’re not an office with a drinking culture anyway. But it did leave me feeling a bit bummed that no one thought to provide water/soda when that’s been a staple in years past. There wasn’t even anything for the kids to drink! Luckily there were fountains nearby and I filled up there.

    Overall, not even a *tiny* bit of a big deal. Next year I’ll try to get drinks duty so it doesn’t happen again. But I thought I left that strange feeling of missing out behind when I started at this company since it’s so different from the beer-every-Friday, drinks-after-work company I used to work at. Hopefully putting this down here gets it off my mind!

    2. beanie beans*

      That might be worth saying something about to whoever organizes it! Just a “For next year” type heads up, especially since there are kids! Very reasonable!

      1. Delphine*

        Yes! Every year a different set of two to three people find a venue and purchase food/drinks on behalf of the company, so everyone organizes it at some point. This year most of the group was newer people and I think it just slipped their minds. Next year I’ll bring it up, just in case.

    3. Beth Anne*

      As a soda drinker I’m always amazed how at events people will have beer and wine and then water but no soda. But I think it’s ridiculous that they didn’t have at least water.

      But if there are kids at this event they need to have at least water…that’s just rude and wrong that they didn’t have anything for the kids to drink!!

      1. SoCalHR*

        Because soda is soooooo bad for you. /S
        Its like when I heard NY was going to put a tax on sugary beverages because they are harmful to your health (which I actually agree with, only occasionally partake myself)…BUT you know there is no way NY would touch the alcohol scene. So the double standard doesn’t make sense, no one over killed someone else by drinking soda.

      2. AnotherAlison*

        I almost feel like it’s less socially acceptable to drink soda than anything else these days. Or, at least admitting it publicly isn’t cool. Vodka is okay but Diet Coke is full of chemicals, so. . .

        I am always a little peeved when there is no Diet Coke, but at least have some water!

      3. Beth Anne*

        I know it’s not healthy but I also only drink like 1-2 cans/glasses of soda a day with meals. But that is my choice. *side note* I think it’s ridiculous that in Maryland kids can’t order soda….

        But I don’t know that soda is any worse than wine or beer is my thing. I don’t know. I’m not much of an alcohol drinker and I just think people are sometimes way too obsessed with it. I don’t care what people do but I feel you should also be accommodating to others. It’s like when I go to my sisters house I don’t even care anymore but I bring my own drinks b/c she never has anything I like…one time she was all oh I have this root beer here but it’s probably flat…EW.

    4. Argh!*

      Let me guess: you work in Wisconsin!

      I would definitely mention it and ask if you should bring your own beverages. The majority is often unaware of the minority’s needs in most things.

    5. SoCalHR*

      Definitely odd… maybe just an oversight…. “BOB I thought you said you were picking up 10 pallets of water”. Also, from a liability standpoint, its a dumb move. And insensitive.

    6. Nita*

      That’s bizarre. Even people who drink want to have non-alcoholic options. Never mind that there were kids. It’s so basic to at least have water, it probably just fell through the cracks. Was there maybe a change in venue, or a new organizer?

    7. Snark*

      I think you’d be on firm ground emailing the organizer and say, “Hey, wanted to flag for next year – we really need to have an option, preferably multiple, for those of us who don’t drink alcoholic beverages. Can we add some cases of water and iced tea to the list for next year, please?”

    8. Ranon*

      Not providing at least water is absurd even if everyone present does drink alcohol! In the summer, with kids present, absolutely there should be non-alcoholic options available. Definitely worth a heads up.

      1. WellRed*

        Right? Can’t believe the vendor didn’t point this out. I would have brought this up strongly at the event. “Where are the non alcohol bevs?” I actually did similar when the planner had 3 different kinds if full sugar soda, knowing I have diabetes ( tiny company). Someone should have been tasked with making a store run for non alcohol stuff. Apalling.

        1. WellRed*

          Jusy realized you said they find a venue. Not vendor. Honestly, this is why party planning should not be left to randos.

    9. OyHiOh*

      I had a similar situation crop up recently. Organization get together and nothing I could eat (religious restrictions that are not a secret and can be met with basic vegetarian fare). The irony of this situation is that on a daily basis, I deal with food operations in our organization. Event was intended to be a night off for all the staff, which is why we paid an outside caterer but I’m looking at a fridge full of leftovers I won’t eat and feeling a bit put off by the whole affair.

      Not sure how I’ll deal with it for next year since I didn’t organize it (my boss made all the arrangements). Probably just remind boss periodically to make sure caterer has a couple decent vegetarian options

  137. Therese*

    Has anyone applied for a job and then had a voice screener? I never have so when I had one last week it was weird. I submitted my application via indeed and then I got an email to call this phone number. When you call it asked you basic interview questions like why you are applying, your background, why you would be a good fit, a time you messed up at work, etc.

    Well the email didn’t really say what it would be when I called the phone number so I wasn’t really prepared to answer these questions. And I just found the whole thing very impersonal. Part of the interview is getting feedback good or bad from the other person and whether I’d want to work there.

    I haven’t heard back yet so who knows what they think or when they are going to get back. But I won’t accept a job over the phone that just seems sketchy. It was for a lawfirm so maybe they are just busy and trying to weed out apps? I don’t know.

  138. Anon MeToo*

    I hope I am not too late to get some opinions about this.

    How to treat someone who has resigned because of sexual harassment allegations? I am professionally friendly with a man who was accused of sexual harassment. We do not work in the same company. I am aware of the allegations – what was said, to whom, and the setting. It was comments only. They were definitely uncalled for. The behavior did not rise to the level of anything criminal. I believe that this happened.

    I have known the harasser for about 10 years through various boards and committees and have had a professionally friendly relationship. The boundary is that we say hello and discuss developments in our profession. We have never socialized outside of professional functions.

    I saw him on the sidewalk the other day and said hello. His response was “I’m surprised you’re talking to me” I brushed that off and mentioned a neutral topic. The interaction ended about 2 minutes later.

    I thought this was fine. But what to do in that situation? I’d welcome thoughts, because I’m sure I’ll see him again. What’s the right balance?

    1. Argh!*

      I’ve been in exactly the same situation, but the difference was that I didn’t automatically assume the allegations were true.

      Ask him for his side of the story. You might be surprised by the answer. My friend said something that was taken the wrong way and magnified by gossip. I have kept his side of the story confidential, but I do tell people that I know his side of the story. Sadly, they never ask me what it is. They don’t seem to care.

      1. Anon MeToo*

        I have significant, valid reasons to believe the veracity of the allegations. I’m not going to expand any more because I want to keep this anonymous.

    2. Annie Moose*

      It’s hard for me to articulate my feelings on this–I mean, it’s not that what he did was okay. But there’s degrees of harassment. There’s a difference between e.g. hitting on someone who doesn’t want it, and extensively talking about creepy sex-related stuff to someone over the course of months or years. You know? Or if this was something that happened a long time ago (with no indication of him doing such things since) compared to something that happened last week (and you have reason to believe this wasn’t the only time he did such things).

      So… from reading your comment, it sounds like it’s kind of down toward the lesser end of the scale. In that case, I think what you did was totally fine; even if he was farther to the worse side of the scale, I would probably still be polite-but-cool up to a certain point. Saying hello and exchanging a few sentences on a neutral topic as you pass on the street isn’t condoning what he did. It’s not like you’re defending him to others or trying to force them to speak to him.

      But I also wouldn’t criticize someone else who chose not to speak to him.

      1. SoCalHR*

        I have similar feelings Annie Moose… I was leaning toward saying that whatever level of interaction AnonMeToo is comfortable with is fine. AnonMeToo knows the details of the interaction, and even if they are 100% accurate, they don’t seem to be so bad that she thinks the guy deserves to be frozen out when she has had 10 years of history with the guy and presumably he’s never said anything out of line to her (assuming you are female, AnonMeToo, I apologize if I’m wrong. If you’re male that changes my perspective a bit).

      2. Ender*

        Yeah I’m here too. Forget about legalities and HR for a second – do you personally think think what he did was bad enough to end a friendship? You said it’s not bad enough to be illegal so I’m assuming it’s in a grey area – and it’s up to you whether you want to make a big deal out of it or not.

    3. Snark*

      Has he meaningfully atoned – and by that, I don’t mean just “accepted his punishment” – for his actions, expressed contrition, or otherwise worked on his ownself? If not, I’d keep it professionally cordial but I wouldn’t really engage. But if someone screwed up badly, made meaningful amends, and is attempting to rebuild a career, I don’t think they should be iced out from society indefinitely.

    4. Ali G*

      Did he admit fault? IMO if he admitted he was wrong, and lost his job, and hopefully learned his lesson, then he’s kind of like an ex-con – served his time and you can treat him as you would have if you didn’t know this happened.

      1. Justin PBG*

        Yeah. If he got punished (lost his job, etc) and admitted wrong, I’m not saying you have to be his buddy, but if what we want for people who do wrong is punishment and improvement, then this tactic is probably best.

    5. Student*

      I think there’s a lot of middle ground here that you aren’t seeing.

      If you’re looking for justification or affirmation to cut off contact, then go with your gut and cut off contact – this is new info that he might be a bigger liability to you than you realized.

      If not, I submit for consideration, shaming without shunning: “I wasn’t surprised by this, given {past specific behavior}, but I was pretty disappointed in you. I’m not going to shun you over it, but I do expect you to never act that way again.”

      1. Student*

        Also an option: “Yeah, I heard. That was a pretty shitty thing for you to do, dude. I’m still talking to you because I hope this experience prompts you to grow up some.”

    6. ..Kat..*

      I would have tried for some version of “I think what you were saying was wrong, and you have paid the price for that. I hope you will change your behavior going forward. That said, I don’t think you need to be punished for it for the rest of your life.” And then subject change. But this would depend on what he had been saying, the frequency, did he get told to stop and yet continued? I have been on the receiving end of comments such as this at work – depending on various factors/severity, they can make a workplace hell for the person on the receiving end of this. So, my response would depend on specifics (which you, understandably, don’t want to get into).

    7. Close Bracket*

      > The behavior did not rise to the level of anything criminal.

      Since sexual harassment is illegal, yes, it did.

  139. Quill*

    I’m being asked to write a summary of my accomplishments for a renewal review, and despite being 26 and having 4 years experience in related industries, I don’t know how to do this. I haven’t had jobs where I had to do the summarizing before, people just extended or did not extend my contract based on projected need?

    How do I write a summary that will get me extended?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Are you familiar with the STAR method? (link in reply) It’s usually used for interview questions, but it should be a good way of getting you started here.

      Situation (a short description of the problem or the environment)
      Task (your role)
      Action (what you did)
      Result (hopefully a good one!)

      And this may be impossible advice, but I would say try not to worry too much about whether or not this particular document will get your contract extended. (Easier said than done, I expect!) You can control what you say, but you can’t control how it’s going to be received or used – other people’s responses to what you write are pretty much out of your control. Make it a strong and accurate summary of what you’ve done this period, get somebody else to proofread it if you can, and send it in. Good luck!

  140. Anon for this*

    I work at a large organisation that recently introduced an extremely generous sabbatical policy. (We’re in a country with much more generous leave policies than the US but this is still unusual.) I’ve just found out that one of the people in my team has had her sabbatical leave request granted for a full year. I knew that she was interested in this and that her manager was uncertain about it but I didn’t think it would be approved so quickly.

    I’m not her line manager but I manage a significant amount of her work and work closely with her daily (we have a weird hierarchy in our team so it’s a bit tricky to explain, I’m slightly senior to her line manager). We’re occasional friends outside of work (which is normal in our small team), but we also do butt heads sometimes at work – she can be extremely blunt and won’t sometimes let things go when she needs to.

    I’m feeling a bit weird about the sabbatical thing – we’re finally well-staffed as a team after years of being an already under resourced team with lots of the team having periods of maternity leave (including this person and me, these are 1 year periods of maternity leave for which we had partial but not full cover.) I’m sure that we’ll manage to partially cover her absence, but it just feels like another headache. I’m currently on vacation and found out that this was approved via social media. It doesn’t help that I left for my vacation somewhat annoyed with her after a couple of difficult interactions. I know that she doesn’t have any specific plan for the year and that doesn’t help me feel sympathetic either – not everyone can afford to just take a year off for fun.

    I think all of the above is TOTALLY unfair of me and I feel really bad for feeling this way but I can’t quite shake it. I’d really like to reframe it so that I can be genuinely happy for her. Can you help??

    1. WellRed*

      Not unfair at all! Did your company think this through, with processes and procedures for covering sabbaticals? Also, don’t sabbaticals usually require someone to have a plan fir that time off (building llama farms for underprivileged children in Antarctica).

      1. ..Kat..*

        If your company has started doing this, I would hope that they have plans for work coverage that aren’t just ‘everyone else sucks it up and does extra work to cover.’ They should be hiring to cover for these sabbaticals. Plus, I think a sabbatical should be a reward for good work.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I’m wondering if your feelings about this development would settle if you were able to find out from who’s in charge of the sabbatical-taker what the plan is for re-distributing sabbatical-taker’s work. (That’s assuming there *is* a plan.) If you know what the plan is, you might have a better idea of what the company’s expectations are for you doing YOUR job. If you find out that you’ll be taking on LESS than you thought, that might go some way toward at least being less unhappy about the situation. You haven’t given any indication of when the sabbatical is supposed to start, but if it hasn’t started yet, and if there’s NO plan in place yet, then I would think this would be a great opportunity for you to start formulating what you’re willing/not willing to do during the sabbatical-taker’s absence, and to get that duties list in front of *your* boss (or whoever) fast, in order to get from him/her an early-on, preferably written, commitment to *that* list, and *no* additional responsibilities. Good luck.

  141. KatieKat*

    I was laid off this week. It was unexpected but I’m in a good place where I can take some time to find the right job. I have a background in education, account management, sales, and customer service. I’m not looking to stay in the same industry so I’m not worry about competing with my old employer. My question is that I had a number of clients I worked with who really liked me. Can I reach out to them in my job search? I’ve never been in a place where I had to look for a job aggressively. Is it ethical to reach out to former clients?

    2. Combinatorialist*

      That sounds exactly like the kind of networking that gets people’s jobs! Also, maybe there would be an ethical question, if you were still working for the company and using the fact that you knew these people through the company to get a job somewhere else. But your company laid you off! And it doesn’t sound like you going to work for a former client hurts your old company in any way.

  142. panic! at the cubicles*

    Tips for being a good professional human?

    I’ve been working with someone in a parallel role on a few projects. I can’t do the decision making, but do most of the communication for my team on these projects. There’s been a lot of “hurry up and wait” and this is frustrating for her and her team. Reasonable! I’m responsive and open that sometimes all I can say is more “hurry up and wait”. Again I’m doing my best! But recently her communications with me have gotten more abrupt, they feel rude/condescending/passive aggressive… worried that I give the impression I’m not listening to her or taking her concerns seriously (but I am!! I get it but I just don’t always have an answer!)

    Any advice on * how to salvage a good relationship? * manage my frustration at being spoken to like this? * miscellaneous advice?

        1. Argh!*

          As someone who likes to get things done and see progress being made on a project, that kind of thing grows old really fast. If you feel that your time & hard work mean nothing to your organization, putting in even more time to write actual email responses to news of non-progress seems like a grind. I don’t say more than “Okay, thanks” when I find out something has stalled. There’s nothing I could add that I wouldn’t want to take back.

    2. Nice Going Angelica*

      Can you document the process with more clarity? If I’m understanding this right, you are coordinating the communication, but ultimately work is flowing from your coworker, through you, and to the decision-makers, who sometimes stall on making progress. Right? If it’s possible, I would try to set up some systems for this flow so you can have clearer expectations.

      Are there timeline expectations for the decision makers? Not knowing what the project is, it’s hard to advise, but I think it would be worth a conversation to understand what a reasonable expectation would be. Can they generally agree to render a decision/approval within one week, or something like that? Then you have something you can hold them to as well. I would proactively explain to them that the abrupt stop-start process is frustrating for the people working on the project and it would help everyone if you had a timeline you all agreed to do your best to live up to. They probably know this intellectually, but it can be easy to forget it in practice when you’re just trying to get your work done too. It might also be worth discussing what makes it difficult to make a decision, generally and in specific situations. If they can give you some context that you can take back to your coworker–something like, “There is currently a policy decision pending somewhere else that will impact this, so the decision makes are waiting to make a call until that comes down. We think it will be in the next two or three weeks.”–it really helps to hear that rather than just “sorry, don’t have it yet.”

      With your coworker, I don’t know if there’s a lot more you can do other than trying to advocate with the decision-makers to make this process better. If you do choose to do the above, you can tell your coworker, “I want you to know that I’ve raised this issue with the decision makers. I know it’s frustrating to have to do the ‘hurry up and wait’ thing over and over, and I’m trying to clarify the process and get some better timelines in place so that this happens less.” I think it helps just to acknowledge that you notice that the issue is a pattern, and that you want it to be better.

  143. Alias Something or Other*

    So my immediate supervisor, “Smith” hasn’t shown up for work, called in, or answered calls or texts for this entire week… and their immediate supervisor hasn’t actually acknowledged it, but is handing Smith’s work over to all the rest of us. How long should I wait before I ask how much longer it’s going to be before they just dismiss Smith and hire a replacement??

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Um… do you have emergency contact info for Smith? Because maybe I listen to too many true crime podcasts, but an employee not showing up or calling/answering texts for an entire week would have me calling the cops to do a welfare check.

        1. Triplestep*

          I got the impression that Smith called neither boss nor direct reports. And I’d be looking for a welfare check as well!

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I totally misread this and thought Smith was Alias’s report.

          I’m wondering how they know that Smith hasn’t been in touch then.

          1. Argh!*

            I read it as the LW assuming the boss had no idea where Smith was, but without any actual evidence. Smith’s boss doesn’t have to tell people what’s going on, and in some cases may be legally obligated not to.

    2. Delphine*

      Can you ask their immediate supervisor if Smith will be back soon? That might give you some answers.

    4. The Commenter Formerly Known as Still Looking*

      I wouldn’t wait any longer, but I wouldn’t ask the question in that manner either. You can probably safely ask Smith’s boss when/if he expects Smith back, and what the plan is going forward – something generic. Sometimes these situations can be delicate. Some people just abandon their jobs, but it could also be that something terrible befell Smith. Is he the kind of person who would just not show and not contact anyone at work?

      Sometimes it is spelled out in the employee handbook how long someone can go incommunicado before being auto-canned.

    5. SoCalHR*

      In some ways, its none of your business. You are not privy to whats going on but presumably Smith’s boss is. If Smith being out is actually affecting your work (i.e. Smith’s boss is failing to fill in successfully, or the team is not getting what it needs) then you can ask about the specific thing you need, but Smith’s status is really isn’t your concern. That being said, it is natural to be curious and not like the uncertainty of the situation, so ideally Smith’s boss *would* address it in some way with the team, but it is possible there is a valid reason they can’t.

      1. Argh!*

        In all ways it’s none of LW’s business. As long as grandboss is making arrangements and doesn’t want to talk about it, just go with the flow.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Well, the arrangements that grandboss are making is to give LW and LW’s coworkers more work. So I think it is their business.

    6. EmKay*

      Do you have a good relationship with your supervisor? I ask because I think what most people would ask in this situation is “hey do you know if Smith is okay?” and not “so when is Smith getting canned?”.

      1. Ender*

        Yes this. If he’s actually totally unresponsive awol the usual response is concern not anger.

  144. The Commenter Formerly Known as Still Looking*

    I’ve been working as a consultant for less than 3 months. I love it. The company asked if I wanted to convert to FTE. Even though I really like this job, I don’t want to be an FTE anywhere right now. I’m burnt out on the FTE life, and I’m just not mentally ready to go there again. Can anyone relate?

    1. A Consultant*

      Absolutely. It was scary to start consulting and have my own full-time business, but once I did, I realized how many things I hated about FTE land. I even had a client really push for me to take a role that would be as a “casual employee,” so that I could still work with other clients outside of them. While that role might have opened some interesting doors, and they promised it wouldn’t feel any different, I KNEW it would come with various strings that are inherent to being an employee anywhere.

      One day I may change my mind, but I have said literally the same thing as you, “I don’t want to be anyone’s employee.”

  145. Anonymous for This Time*

    So, I’ve been doing some soul-searching about my field. I’ve spent about 10 years in it including while going to college and for a variety of reasons determined I’m not in love with it. As I’ve made efforts to refocus in a new field that offers more flexibility in terms of moving around and lifelong learning, I’ve become a bit fearful that I’m just a job-hopper that will become disenchanted and bored with any job I take on. I haven’t stayed at a position for more than 2 years.

    I’m reminded of the question from a few years ago: https://www.askamanager.org/2015/03/i-hate-work-all-of-it-with-a-passion.html and wonder if this is true. Am I just bad at Work? Would I truly enjoy or tolerate anything? Am I just too picky about what I dislike about a job or a work environment?

    I’m not sure how to begin digging for the answers to those questions. For anyone who may have had a similar sense of detachment and dislike for work, where are you now? How did you handle it?

    1. LQ*

      There was another recent one like this: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/02/what-if-i-cant-succeed-in-the-world-of-work.html

      At some point you either find a way to live without work (wealthy family you can live off) or you find a way to do enough to survive. But work is a lot of things. Lots of people don’t like work but we need to eat and have a home and ideally have money to spend on hobbies and things we really do love. I think a lot of the comments on this one talk about the danger of thinking that work is something you have to be in love with.

      You may never be in love with work. That’s totally ok.

      1. Anonymous for This Time*

        You make a great point, and I think I’ve come to some terms with never really being able to monetize my “loves.” I mostly worry that I have found a reason(s) to move on from each job fairly quickly such as: moving, mismatched management style, feeling like the job I interviewed for is not the one I ended up with. Those are legitimate concerns and reasons for leaving. I think I could do almost anything with decent coworkers, a normal office culture, and decent pay. But there’s no guarantee that the bad fits won’t keep happening. I feel like I get burnt out on trying to “stick it out” so I don’t look like a job-hopper and then take anything else in my field, ending up in another position I feel stuck in.

        I feel like this questions morphed a little bit, but I’m still trying to understand myself and I appreciate your comment. It’s helped me focus my thoughts some.

        1. ..Kat..*

          A partial option is to live a less expensive lifestyle that allows you to work less. Smaller home, older car (or public transportation), and other thrifty choices.

  146. SaraV*

    Ugh. The anxiousness of waiting for a possible (good) phone call sucks. I think being on my lunch break, and not working, is putting my mind back on it.

    *sigh*

  147. Argh!*

    My boss wants details before approving a plan that will involve others, but she doesn’t want me to contact those people until the idea is approved. So… she’s worried that I will waste time contacting people who may not be interested, but she’s not worried that she will waste time considering something that may be impossible.

    I have had a headache all week. I’m afraid it won’t go away until my boss quits, retires, gets fired, or dies.

    Since she’s making it impossible for me to do interesting projects, she virtually guarantees I won’t be able to leave before she does.

  148. Beth Anne*

    I was reading in a group about someone that had a friend working no joke 17 hour days. These people were on salary and expected to work from like 7am – 1am! They were asking if this was legal and people don’t really think there is anything legally that can be done but man I just thought that was insane.

    A lot of people think the companies can do this b/c the economy isn’t that great and people need jobs. Honestly I would not stay that long or I’d just leave at 6pm and see what happens. Anyone else deal with something similar or know legally if they can do anything?

    1. SoCalHR*

      The legality of it depends on what type of work the people are doing and whether they would be officially classified as exempt by federal rules. I personally wouldn’t tolerate that even as exempt (except in very rare occasions) especially if I wasn’t told those would be the hours when I got the job or it wasn’t known to be a common thing in the profession (attorneys, sometimes). I definitely would quit or just leave at a reasonable hour and see what happens (unless, of course I was one step from homelessness or something).

    2. El*

      Are these 17 hour days the norm or are they on specific days when the company has a lot going on? In my industry, 17 hour days can and do happen during busy season.

    3. Zombeyonce*

      While there are laws requiring at least 8 hours between shifts, they may not apply to exempt workers, but I’d tell your friend to look into it.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Wow, this leaves just 7 hours a day for eating, commuting, sleeping, and basic chores such as grocery shopping, laundry, etc. This is crazy and not sustainable.

      One thing I found when I worked at an office job at a company that was requiring 70+ hour weeks was that people were not putting in a good 70+ hours of work. After working these kind of hours for a while, we were tired and taking a lot of casual breaks of talking, making coffee, zoning out, etc without even realizing it. We would have been better off (and the company would have been too) if we had been allowed to work shorter hours – eight good hours of work and then going home to rest and have lives would actually have resulted in greater productivity for the company. And happier workers.

  149. First time manager*

    I am a college senior who will be managing a staff of about 30 other college students. This is my first management role. Any and all advice is appreciated!

    1. Rey*

      Set super clear expectations. For example, if you have a strict arrival time or a strict deadline for a project, let them know up front. Don’t hide expectations or waffle about it, and then be frustrated that they didn’t meet the mark. And if someone is slacking off or just not doing things the right way, sit down and have a talk about it as soon as you are aware. Instinct usually says “I can ignore it for a few days and it will go away” but this is rarely true-it won’t go away on its own. Sit down with them and say “This is the problem/thing that isn’t being down correctly. This is the way things need to be done. Can you commit to making that change?”

    2. Zombeyonce*

      Don’t try to be friends with everyone. I’m not saying don’t be friendly, but it’s going to be really easy to hang out with them because they feel like your peers, but you need to keep personal distance from the people you manage. Otherwise, you risk problems with favoritism (even if only perceived that way), and that never looks good on a manager.

      Also, read the articles linked here and the thread afterwards: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/08/what-mistakes-did-you-make-as-a-new-manager.html

    3. BRR*

      Good luck! I think the fact you’re even thinking about management as a separate skill puts you above tons of other managers. That’s a lot of other people to be managing, especially for a first-time manager. From what I’ve heard but not experienced, managing students can be challenging because their job can be put on the back burner. No advice on that one, just a forewarning.

    4. A username for this site*

      Give people a chance to explain themselves, before you assume the worst of them.

      People won’t remember the 99 times you said, “Hey, your shift started 10 minutes ago, where are you, is everything OK?” when they were cutting work, but they will remember the 1 time you said “Get your ass in here right now or you’re fired, I’m tired of your irresponsibility” while they were sitting in the emergency room from a car accident.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Be direct about expectations. Reward meeting those expectations. If people aren’t meeting expectations, develop a plan with them to improve their work. These are college students after all. Many will be new to work and what is expected and required. They may be clueless about workplace norms. Teach them. Have a plan for helping them become better versions of themselves. Have consequences for bad behavior and poor work.

      Have a plan for how to be very organized yourself. This is a lot of people to manage. Maybe set aside some time each week to note achievements, ways for your employees to improve so that you can give them meaningful evaluations. Don’t wait until yearly evaluations to give employees feedback. Nothing in a yearly evaluation should be a surprise to the employee.

  150. LDP*

    Chiming in for a second time today. So, about a week ago I accidentally let it slip to my boss that I have diagnosed anxiety. Now today she pulled me into her office to talk about my “attitude” (which was just her saying she doesn’t like when I’m visibly stressed out, because it stresses her out) and actually asked me if I’m “getting help for my anxiety”. She tried to frame it as her “wanting to make sure [I’m] getting the help [I] need”, but I don’t get the sense that those are her intentions. I feel so violated and I don’t know what to do. Anyone have any tips on what to do in this situation?

    1. fposte*

      Crap. Well, I’d stick to the line that you’d like to keep discussion of your health issues out of the workplace and between you and your doctor [which nicely hints at the “getting the help” thing]. But I’d also see if there is an improvement that would be helpful–if you’re visibly stressed a lot, for instance, that’s challenging for other people and hard on workflow.

      1. LDP*

        I told her I wasn’t comfortable discussing my medical history any further, so hopefully she won’t push about it anymore. One of the main reasons I’m so stressed with work is that we went from being a 3 person team to a 2 person team back in March, and my coworker who left was phenomenal at her job, so it was more like losing 2 people rather than just one, especially since I had been at this job barely 6 months when she left. We have the budget to hire someone else, she’s just barely starting to interview candidates. My boss also has the habit of telling me she needs something by EOD…at like 3:30 p.m. So that’s where the “visibly stressed” piece comes into it, especially when she forwards me an email chain and it’s clear she’s known about a deadline for weeks and just didn’t tell me. I know I need to leave this job soon, I was just really hoping I could stay for at least two years.

    2. Zombeyonce*

      It might be time to ask for a formal accommodation. While it’s intrusive that your boss is asking these sorts of questions, she may be asking because your anxiety might be significantly impacting day-to-day work for her and your team members. If you can show her ways to mitigate that with an accommodation, she may back off, and you may have an easier time at work.

      I recommend talking to your therapist about what kinds of changes at work could help you be healthy and see if any can be incorporated.

      1. LDP*

        I wish I could find an accommodation that would work. We had a member of our team leave, and we still haven’t filled the position, so all the extra work on me has been adding to my anxiety. We even have the funding to hire someone else, she just hasn’t gotten around to it, for whatever reason. Other than forcing her hand into hiring someone, I don’t know what else I can do. I feel like it’s just time to see the writing on the wall that it’s time to find a new job.

        1. A username for this site*

          To be honest, what it sounds like is you accidentally handed your boss a Get Out of Jail Free Card. Now she can blame all of the problems of your work environment, which sound like they would stress anyone out, on your anxiety.”It’s not that I’m a bad manager setting my staff up for failure, it’s that LDP has anxiety.”

          I’ve had many a toxic manager myself. I’m sorry. Best of luck with the job search.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. What outcome do you want?

      You don’t owe your boss an accounting of how you’re treating a medical issue. If she would be adversarial to this position, you can either go to HR or find a new job.

      If you want an accommodation, you should ask for one and be prepared to go down that road.

      If you are seeing a therapist, you could ask them the best way to handle this. I’m sure this issue has gotta come up reasonably often to therapists.

      1. LDP*

        The ideal outcome right now is a new job, unfortunately. It’s a really small company, so there’s no other department I can transfer to, and there’s no one else I can report to. My boss has also been the one toxic apple that’s spoiling the bunch in this job, but up until today I thought I could stick it out for at least another year. But, that’s not looking likely.
        We don’t have an in-house HR team, so I’m not quite prepared to have to hunt down whoever our contact is for that. Especially since I’d probably have to go through my boss, who would want to handle it herself and not actually turn it over to HR…ugh, it would be a nightmare.

    4. BRR*

      I’m wondering if you maybe should disclose this to HR? In case your boss does anything it’s not “oh LDP is claiming discrimination after the fact” but more in a preventative manner.

    5. Close Bracket*

      > she doesn’t like when I’m visibly stressed out, because it stresses her out

      I had a manager once who told me I needed to do things a certain way bc to do otherwise gave her anxiety. I caved. The thing is, her anxiety is not my problem. She should have been learning to manage her anxiety, not expecting me to manger her anxiety by doing things a certain way.

      This is the case with you. Your manager needs to learn to manage her stress regardless of your level of stress. I really really regret not telling that manager, “I’m sorry, this way of doing things is not working for me, I’m going to do it this way. I can teach you some breathing techniques to handle your anxiety.” I’m kind of a jerk. You might work on something like, “Thank you for asking. You know, techniques for managing stress are basically the same as techniques for managing anxiety. If you are having trouble managing your stress, you could try some of those techniques. A therapist could guide you through them.” The last sentence is optional, depending on how big a jerk you want to be.

      tl;dr Her stress, her problem.

  151. Calaila*

    I have a dilemma. Basically, the question is: Is it a major no-no to apply for/accept a promotion when you know you are leaving in the foreseeable future? (In my case, “foreseeable” = roughly 9-12 months)

    I have been in my job for 6 years, in 2 different positions. Right now I am “next in line” for a promotion or step up. A position just opened that is the one I’ve been aiming for, and I’m already getting questions from my colleagues about whether I’m applying for it. It would be a significant pay increase and might help me secure a related position when I leave. I’m pretty sure that management wants me to apply and I’m expecting heavy pressure. The reasons NOT to apply, besides the obvious, are 1) the job will come with a lot more stress; 2) my current job was recently split in 2 (same title) and I’m still training the 2nd person – I don’t want to leave her in the dust with the workload; 3) I’m concerned that by taking this and then leaving will blindside management and may affect references, etc.

    The reason I’m leaving is to move back to my home state to be closer to my family. The atmosphere at my office has been a bit tumultuous in the past year, but despite that I love where I work. But I don’t love where I live. I’m missing out on family milestones and the travel back and forth is taking its toll; I’m just ready to leave. I’m not quitting before I have another job lined up. So my timeline isn’t really set at this point.

    If my hunch is correct that I should not apply for this new position considering my circumstances, what should I tell management when the inevitable questions come? Either way there’s going to be disappointment. I feel really stuck right now.

    1. BeenThere*

      9 – 12 months is long enough, I think, that you can take the step up without a problem. Also, things can change and maybe you won’t leave. But only take it if you want it. Sounds like you have a lot of other reasons to not want it. Just don’t let “maybe moving someday” be the limiting factor.

      1. BeenThere*

        But, forgot to say, if you decide not to apply just tell them that while you’re happy to be considered you just don’t think it’s the right move for you right now. They’ll be fine!

    2. McWhadden*

      Seems like you have legitimate reasons not to want the job. But I don’t think that you might leave is one. You don’t 100% know what will happen in a year. And a promotion will help you shop for other jobs. People leave sometimes.

      If you don’t apply just say “Thanks for thinking of me, as much as I love this work it’s a little bit more than I’m ready to take on right now” or “I think I have a lot more to accomplish in this position.”

    3. Zombeyonce*

      I’m a dissenting voice here, but I think you should apply for the job. You’ve been working toward something like this for a while and it’ll be easier to get a lateral job when you move than it would be to move up into the position you want when moving. You’d also have more potential jobs available in the new place since you would be eligible for not just the kind of job you’re doing now (if you decided to take a step down just so you could get a job more easily), but you’d also be eligible the promotion-type jobs without having to convince them you deserve to be given a higher position than you’ve demonstrated competency for.

      You’d be a more attractive candidate and being in a new job just 9 months and then moving for personal, non-job related reasons isn’t going to be a ding against you.

      I think that handling the extra stress for that time would be a sacrifice worth making to make your life closer to home better in the long run. And who knows, maybe it will actually be better than you expect! Either way, it’ll be significantly more money that you could use to stockpile an emergency/moving fund to keep you afloat if you end up moving and THEN looking for a job if you really couldn’t stand the distance anymore. I say do some math and figure out how much more money it would be, multiply that by 9 months, and that number may make the decision for you.

    4. BRR*

      I think you should apply. 1) As you said, your timeline isn’t set 2) It might negatively impact you if you say no 3) I hate that I’m not taking you at your word (and I’m really sorry about that!) but I think some of your reasons not to take the job are because you feel guilty you woudl take it knowing that you might leave the company soonish. Unless the stress is monumentally more, I would go for it.

      1. Calaila*

        Yes, that’s pretty much it, I feel guilty. Interestingly, the more I casually ask around about it, the more I’ve been advised to “proceed with caution.” I think my biggest reservation (guilty about leaving) is underscored by the consensus that the stress level is indeed a major negative factor.

        Also, just had a convo with my manager who urged me to apply but also said, “don’t let your family make you leave!” Um…about that…

        1. ..Kat..*

          I am someone who has opted out of promotions that came with more stress and work hours than I wanted. And I don’t regret it. Yes, I make less money than I could have, but I have the work/life balance that I want. That said, if you are willing to put up with the hours and stress for the limited time you see yourself staying in this job, the experience might be worth it. But, would you simply be qualifying yourself for future jobs that maybe you don’t want? I don’t think you should worry about the other stuff.

  152. Book Badger*

    I had three job interviews this week! Yay me! And I think they went really well, so I’m going ahead and thinking about them as if they would hire me (since the alternative is either assuming none will hire me, and not planning, or only one offers, in which case the choice is made for me). One of them’s a $15/hr short-term gig (political campaign work), so that one I’m not worried about. It’s the other two I’m iffy on.

    Context: I graduated law school this year and took the Massachusetts bar on July 25th. I find out if I passed in October. I live in New Hampshire and would ultimately like to live in Mass, especially because I’m approaching Year 8 of being long-distance with my boyfriend (who also lives in NH and is going to grad school in MA) and I’m kind of sick of it.

    Job A would be a paralegal job in MA. It’s part-time ($18/hr but only 20-25 hrs/wk) and in a very swanky part of MA where all the rent is super expensive, so I’d need to get a second job or commute to be able to afford it, even if I lived with roommates. At the interview they floated the possibility of hiring me as a part-time attorney once I get my license, but I’m not holding them to that since it was just a hypothetical. I could also quit really easily once I got my license, if I needed to.

    Job B would be a paralegal job in NY. It’s through Americorps, so I’d get paid essentially minimum wage (I’d be on SNAP, probably) but I’d get an extra $5,500 towards my student loans if I did the full year there, and the cost of living there is less than half what it would be in MA. I’d also get to defer paying my student loans for the year I worked there. At the interview they said I might also people in Social Security/disability benefits cases, since most Americorps paralegals don’t have my background.

    They’re both in the areas of law I want to do. Both suggested that I might advance in the job. And both are thorny for money reasons. I’m leaning towards Job A just because it’s closer to where I want to live and more flexible, but gah, I’m really balking at the cost of living. Maybe I should go for the Americorps job, even though I’d be essentially living in poverty for a year, just so I can have the experience? I don’t know.

    1. BeenThere*

      Only you can know, but if it were up to me I’d probably go for Job A too. I don’t like the idea of being locked in for a full year when there is a very good chance you passed the bar and can be doing much better in just a few months… The $5500 isn’t enough to make that up, IMO.

    2. McWhadden*

      Congrats on graduating and getting through the bar!

      As a lawyer from MA I have some thoughts but definitely follow your own instincts. Americorps is a great program and looks good on the resume. But I would say something to think about is you are locked in as a paralegal for a year. With Job A you can potentially start acting as an attorney the second you learn you passed the bar. Even if it isn’t with Job A you can immediately start looking for lawyer jobs. Any attorney contacts you make with Americorps won’t really help you since it’s not where you want to live. You’d also establish a presence in the place you want to practice which is pretty big. But, yes, that salary isn’t really livable here.

      Best of luck!

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      Honestly, I don’t want to sound snarky, but I would keep interviewing. Neither offer seems very good. If Job A would still be part time if you’re an attorney, that’s problematic. Unless you can join a court appointed list or hang your own shingle on the side.

      Also, I hate to say this, but there is a stigma in some courthouses about working for an extended period as a paralegal when you’ve passed the bar.

    4. Miss H*

      I agree with Trout ‘Waver that you should keep hunting. If the money is blah either way, I would go for whichever job is closer to your boyfriend. Long-distance is terrible, as you know, and the cost of traveling to see each other on a regular basis is huge in both money and time.

  153. Frustrated Developer*

    I’m having trouble finding effective words to communicate a concern I have about a client/partner my team is working with. We’re working with them on a new product, and as is very common, the partner basically wants to sell it to anyone who might buy it. They’re making (what I believe is) a common mistake, which is trying to incorporate things just to make a sale. I mean literally, in some cases, one sale. Not because it enhances the product overall, or increase its long term viability or appeal. But one person wants it, and will buy the product if we do “it” so they keep wanting to add those requests. Needless to say, I think this is a horrible approach to product management. Also some of the things they’re talking about incorporating would literally only be of use to the one client. Or have limited lifespan. I think our focus needs to be much bigger picture. It seems like everyone on my team agrees but no one seems to be stepping up to say it. It’s not really my place to say it. But I think the client/partner needs a cold bucket of water conversation. I don’t think they realize how short-sighted they’re being. It also might be they don’t care and if they want to make horrible decisions it’s not my job to stop them. It’s just frustrating because I’ve ridden this train before, seen the mistakes, been part of the clean-up of regret after them, and it feels so Wrong to not be able to apply lessons learned.

    1. Frustrated Developer*

      I should add, besides this being a general bad practice, I suspect the partner is possibly also acting in bad faith, ie telling the prospect “sure we can do X” to make the sale, when the product doesn’t, and what they really mean is they intend to have us try to build in X in time for it to exist before the client gets the product. I don’t want to accuse them of that, and I worry asking what they’ve promised might come across as accusing them of it…but on the other hand if they are acting in bad faith…they should be called out on that.

      1. Book Badger*

        I’m not sure who you would say this *to*, exactly, but since you’re having trouble finding the words, maybe a script like:

        I’m noticing that client/partner is doing a fairly common thing, which is to focus on short-term sales over the long-term viability of the product. I understand the urge to incorporate requests to appeal to a broad audience, but I think that we should consider the bigger picture, as well. Is there a way we can balance these two competing interests to create the best possible product?

  154. thatbirdgirl*

    Longtime lurker with a story folks here will appreciate.

    An organization that’s been a longtime freelance client of mine is creating a new full-time role in my area, and they strongly encouraged me to apply, which I did. (The impression I got is that the job is basically mine to lose.)

    This was a couple weeks ago. Today I got an email from someone on the hiring committee asking again if I’m interested and reiterating that they’d love to see my application.

    Ooooooookay. Shows me just how organized their hiring process is, I guess. (I replied saying that I did apply on August 1, sending my materials to the email address specified in the job posting, but that if they somehow didn’t receive my application I’d be happy to re-send it and I’m glad she reached out!)

    1. OtterB*

      Since you’ve worked with them as a client, you know whether this is representative of the organization or not. But every once in a while emails really do go astray. I pinged a work colleague a few days ago because he hadn’t acknowledged receipt of something I sent last week, and it had gone to spam for no obvious reason.

  155. Tee*

    I cannot figure out how to successfully quit procrastinating. I’m a grad student who works part-time, with a pretty busy schedule, and LOGICALLY I know it’s in my best interest to start working on my assignments well in advance, but for some reason… I just seem to be incapable of doing that. I always start researching about 2 weeks before an assignment is due, start planning about a week before it’s due and 99% of the time don’t SERIOUSLY begin writing until 1-2 days before it’s due. This is becoming miserable, but I just can’t figure out how efficient people don’t procrastinate.

    I have the week off of work and an assignment due tonight, you think I would have spent most of the week working on this assignment… but I didn’t! Here I am 2/3 done my assignment, and the quality of it is (in my view pretty poor). I know with this assignment my procrastination is going to bite me in the ass. All I am aiming for at the moment is a 75% lmao. This is pathetic!

    I can’t stop thinking about one of my classmates who had her rough draft written TWO WEEKS AGO. How do people do that? It just seems so onerous. Ack!! Any advice? Enough is enough, this is getting pretty ridiculous.

    1. BeenThere*

      I am a planner and if it were me, I would have these assignments done at least a week before the due date… because WHAT IF?!?!? (I am also overly-focused on what might go wrong to impede me.)

      So, can you just set yourself an artificial deadline? If it’s due Oct 1, then tell yourself it is due 9/25? Or just break it down into chunks? Maybe the whole thing is overwhelming. Set yourself a deadline to do all research two weeks ahead of the due date. When you’ve done that, set the next deadline to have a first draft 3 days later. Then a final draft a week later??? IDK… I don’t have that issue, but this is how I handle big projects.

      1. Tee*

        The false due date could be a good motivator.

        Actually, I think something that stops me from doing work far in advance is that because I wait until “the last minute” I devote *sooooo much* time to completing the assignments in a small chunk of time. I have a difficult time actually KNOWING what is a reasonable amount of time on bits and pieces of a project. Like, I have no idea how much time is reasonable to spend on assignment when the 48 hours before it’s due isn’t staring me in the face. Does that make sense? Probably not, haha.

        1. BeenThere*

          It does make sense actually! How can you know how much research will go into it until you do it? So, I definitely would go with the false due dates.

          When my kids were in school they always had science fair projects due at a certain time of year. I would always have them start early… JUST IN CASE! Well, one year “Just In Case” came in handy because all the plants died over the holiday break. Fortunately, because he was so far ahead of the curve in getting is project done, he had time to replant and let them grow enough to complete the project on time. Usually, they just did their projects early and let them take up space in the sunroom until it was time to take them to school. (Unlike the kid who did his project on the way to school… something about how long it would take his banana peel – from breakfast – to turn brown.)

      1. BeenThere*

        My adult daughter is in a grad program and we have a running joke that her profs take turns giving out the A and the B because for the first three semesters she always got one of each, even though (when specifically asked) a professor could not tell her why she got the B instead of the A.

      2. BRR*

        I do think for some reason procrastination runs rampant in academia (both students and professors).

    3. The Other Dawn*

      I wish I had some advice, but I am the same exact way. I’ve fought against it for years–in school, at home, at work. I’ve given up and realized it’s just me. It’s who I am. I always get stuff done and do it well, but I have to be up against a looming deadline before I can get my ass to move. Even if I start super early, I still end up working like crazy at the end. Also, with more time to get something done, I find that I get derailed too much from the main objective. I go off on all these scavenger hunts that aren’t necessary, which causes me to spend even more time on something when I don’t need to.

      1. Tee*

        Yes! With this paper I tried to start my research early, but ended up spending way too much time on a topic that wasn’t worth discussing. I should have realized earlier that it wouldn’t be viable to write about it, but I despite my better judgement I called off researching that topic a little too late and ended up going with a topic I feel pretty “meh” about.

        1. The Other Dawn*

          I’ve given up on trying to get myself to be a planner when it comes to most things. I just can’t do it, and when I do, it doesn’t really make a difference. If anything, it causes the end result to be “meh.” I’ve always felt lazy and disorganized, but I’ve come to realize I actually do better when I just accept that this is what works best for me. Sure, it sucks to be burning the midnight oil when I could have been done a week ago and could instead be doing something else, but it is what it is and I’m not going to fight it anymore. If I were missing deadlines or turning in a crap result then I’d be concerned about it and work hard to get better.

      2. Matilda Jefferies*

        This is me too. I’ve finally decided to make peace with the fact that I procrastinate, and all the false deadlines and Pomodoro techniques and internet articles in the world are not going to make me stop doing it. I figure, it’s gotten me through university degrees and 18 years of a professional career (so far), and I always do get the job done, so maybe it’s only a problem in my own mind. At the end of the day – for me – it’s turned out to be much easier to just accept that this is my natural tendency than to fight against it.

    4. LQ*

      2 things.
      1 clearly it’s not a logic thing (or you’d have been able to logic your way out of it already) so stop trying to solve it with logic. If you really want to change think about it as tricking yourself into it, gamifying, brain hacking, whatever phrase you like. But trying to fix a nonlogic problem with a logic answer eh, unlikely.
      2 I’m the opposite. I want to get everything done NOW. I once got assigned a project I was supposed to spread out over a semester, I did it in a week, not the last week like everyone else…no, tiny me did it in the first week. I am almost never different, the only time I’m different is when I don’t understand the problem. I don’t understand how people procrastinate and actually get stuff done, my panic and anxiety would overwhelm me to the point of it not happening so I can’t not. It just seems so onerous. (in other words, I have no idea on the other side of the fence either)

    5. Persimmons*

      Small bites. I have never successfully convinced myself to do 45 minutes of cardio. But I HAVE convinced myself to do 5 minutes of cardio, nine times in a row.

      Small bit (research until you find one viable source), reward. Small bit (outline or notecards), reward. Repeat until done.

    6. Fresh Faced*

      I’m like that as well. Last minute assignments at school have bled into last minute job applications now. I got better when I started going to the library to get my work done. Being in a place where its super hard to procrastinate (in my mind I could either work or go home) got me motivated enough to start. Though I procrastinate like crazy I hate wasting my time so I needed to justify the trip by staying long enough in the building. If I stayed long enough I’d eventually start the work and get into a groove. So I guess I ended up tricking my brain a bit. Also a good study buddy is a blessing.

    7. Combinatorialist*

      So, I just finished grad school and before grad school, I was always a very on top of things person. And then in grad school, I really wasn’t and things slid for the first time and I was like “am I even myself anymore”. For me, conquering procrastination (in order to actually write my dissertation) involved:

      1. Working through/accepting some of the feelings I was feelings. It’s okay that it is hard to motivate yourself! At the end of the day, there is no prize for “I didn’t have to struggle to finish this assignment.” I also had to really face that the reason it was hard to work on things was because I wasn’t excited about my degree any more and because I had some deep-seated inadequacy that I was stuck in with a negative feedback loop/self-fulfilling prophecy. So if you don’t know why it is hard to motivate yourself, a counselor might be able to help you out. Generally I have found that when I wasn’t doing something that logically I knew I should or something that I wanted to want to do, there were some pretty important feelings lurking and preventing that. But this is a long-term project and in the short-term…

      2. Pair working on the assignment with something you love. For me, this was queso. I love queso but it is obviously better as a “sometimes food.” However, to get my dissertation written, I was getting queso like every other day and I could only eat it while working on my dissertation. Is there music you love? Or your favorite pajama pants? Or something that you really really enjoy you can enjoy while working on the assignment. Pair them together.

      3. Set ridicuously short goals for yourself. “I’m going to write this paper” = too hard. “I’m going to pick a topic” = probably still too hard. “I’m going to think if X is a viable topic and either choose X or eliminate X” = possibly doable. Then set a 15 min timer, do the goal. Take a break and give yourself a reward. Now think of the next tiny step. The guiding principle is not “Get the job done” but “Make the job smaller” (thank you Captain Awkward). What is one thing you can do to make the job smaller? Now go do that.

    8. Nice Going Angelica*

      This is so real. I literally don’t think I did a single assignment in high school, college, or grad school before the night before it was due. For me, one of the challenges is that I hate having things undone, which you would think would lead me to starting early! But alas, no: how it actually manifests is that once I start something, I can’t stop and then pick it back up. It’s either all or nothing, so the only way for me to avoid “nothing” was doing it the night before.

      I’ve been able to get better at this in the working world by breaking the project down into discrete chunks. I don’t mean steps, I mean creating chunks that have a discernible beginning, middle, end and final product, that will add up to the project eventually. For a paper, I would have those chunks be things like, “Read and synthesize the research on X portion of the paper,” “write the literature review,” “write my arguments.” I also really never figured out what I was going to argue until I was writing it, but that’s a different story. (I’ve definitely changed my argument half-way through paper because I got excited about a weird metaphor or turn of phrase. How did I graduate???).

      I would also suggest you think about whether there are ways to lean into your natural inclination. I reached a point in college where I just accepted that I was going to do everything the day before. That means that I blocked out the whole day, stocked up on snacks and coffee, etc. Amazing to be able to plan ahead so effectively to procrastinate, but there you go! Are there ways you can just do better at doing your assignment on short notice, rather than trying to go against your inclination to work til the last minute?

      1. Tee*

        Okay, I didn’t realize this but I think I have a problem with leaving things unfinished and I have never thought about it before. I don’t mind writing an “unfinished” essay over the course of days because I (tell myself lol) that I “remember” what I am writing about. I’m worried that if I start early it will get… I dunno… diluted, or I’ll forget about it? Or something else that probably won’t happen.

        [In procrastination news… I am currently at 2400-ish words out of a maximum of 3000. I’m writing my final section. After that I’ll just quickly write the conclusion and get onto EDITING (which is much needed with this paper) and fixing all of my citations).] I feel like I’ve really let myself down with this paper though, it’s worth 50% of my grade and I am really worried that I’ll get like… a 0.

    9. Ender*

      When I was doing my PhD and working parties i set myself a target of spending a minimum of 5 hours every day just in PhD work. You may need to adjust depending on your paying job. Buy an hourly daily target is beneficial in staying focused.

    10. AeroEngineer*

      I successfully got over this by using two techniques, but it took a lot of discipline and work. First is to accept the problems and fully look at what I was doing exactly, after that, I used these techniques to get over the specific problems.

      1. The first thing I do at the beginning of the project is to break it down into smaller chunks which are more manageable and give them an order. Then every week and usually every day I break down a bigger chunk into tasks and deadlines (making sure to make them reasonably sized) and make sure to update planning every week at the most, usually every couple of days. After breaking the project down into chunks, I then only look at the overall project every week or so to make sure that there are no surprises coming up. I found it makes things easier to look at it in several hour long chunks of work instead of a full two day task.

      2. Bribing myself with setting milestones after I get bigger tasks done. I really like online gaming, so I would say that “if I get this done then I can play for the next hour” or if it is a bigger task then perhaps for the rest of the day or something. Can even be candy or something, but usually I choose something which I would rather be doing/eating at that point in time instead of the project I need to do.

  156. Portia*

    My husband was hired by a large university as a full-time, non-tenure-track professor. They took forever to actually make the job offer (like, he started interviewing in spring and they finally made the offer in July). Classes start next week. He still doesn’t have a contract, which means he doesn’t have library access, a school email, access to his schedule, etc. At my urging, he finally pushed back, saying he really needs his formal contract signed before school starts.

    …Y’all, they haven’t even submitted his background check yet. He found out today he probably won’t get his first paycheck until October 1. But he starts teaching Monday. Ugggggh.

    1. Zombeyonce*

      I’m pretty sure that’s illegal. He is supposed to be paid within 9 days of the end of a pay period after he’s started working, IIRC and if he’s in the US. I think he needs to check on that law and have a nice conversation w/his supervisor (using Alison’s great language format of “I’m sure WE don’t want to run afoul of the law here.”).

      1. Zombeyonce*

        Oh, and he should definitely do this by email so he has a paper trail of whatever the supervisor tells him. If they agree that he should still start on Monday and yet won’t be paid until long after, he will want that in writing if anything goes sour with the contract. Proof that they wanted him to start work!

      2. fposte*

        That’s not a national law; it totally depends on the state. Note also that state employees (if he’s at a public university) may be exempt from state laws about pay timing. He really shouldn’t go in under a legal pretext unless he knows the law.

        However, it’s often possible to get a special check cut in this circumstance. I’d ask for that. Make yourself a person in need and not a demand and you’ll have better luck at getting past the don’t-wanna-do-extra-work problem.

        1. A username for this site*

          Husband worked as an adjunct for a state university system one year. Classes started in August, but his first paycheck didn’t come until October.

          Their pay periods were so weird, we were getting direct deposits for something like four months after the semester ended.

    2. Rey*

      What normal, sane person decided that someone should work for two months before receiving their first paycheck? This feels like a lack of common sense

      1. fposte*

        It’s a process thing at a big institution; I wouldn’t be surprised if people at my university ran into it. Hiring stuff was supposed to be completed by x date to make payroll for that month. Portia’s husband’s hiring stuff didn’t make the cut, so he didn’t make it past the filters to payroll. That means they’ll have to cut an off-cycle or special check to pay him.

        1. Portia*

          Yes, I’ve run into it when I was a postdoc at a different big institution. It’s just so frustrating to me that they have known for months now that he would be hired, and they just didn’t bother to start the wheels turning on his paperwork. I don’t know how likely it is that he can get a special check. He managed to get his health insurance to start September 1 instead of October 1, but he had to give up some professional development funds to do it. Sigh.

    3. Chief of Staff*

      Is this his first job in academia? In my experience this is very common. We start classes in 6 days and our NTT contracts went out yesterday.

  157. Sad Raise*

    With the start of the new fiscal year, we all got our merit/cost of living increases. My workplace provided an average ballpark of what employees could expect, but my increase was lower than the average.

    I started my job about six months ago. Are increases often pro-rated if you have been at a job for less than the full year? I am trying to figure out if i should be concerned about my performance or should bring this concern to my supervisor, or if this is normal.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      The only way to know is to ask your supervisor.

      “Hey, I noticed that my increase was below the average and I was wondering if you could explain why.”

    2. BeenThere*

      I agree that you should ask, but I don’t think it’s unusual for them to give a lower raise to someone as new as you are. I would hope that the raise would come with a performance discussion, but if it doesn’t (it seems as though it hasn’t) then do ask what you can do to improve your performance.

    3. Snark*

      It would be incredibly normal for them to have prorated that to your tenure, or even to have not granted one at all given how little time you’ve been there.

      1. BRR*

        I’ve had prorated raises at every place I’ve worked, I would still recommend checking with your manager about performance though (I bet everything is fine). My current employer has strict cut off dates for things like this (I believe the new Director of HR is working on fixing it) and a coworker literally missed out on a COLA by a week.

    4. Argh!*

      I had this same experience, so I asked grandboss (who sets the salaries) and boss about how salary amounts are calculated. What I learned is that grandboss and my boss are horrible people who disrespect us underlings and are not above telling easily falsified lies or breaking the law.

      I discovered this seven years in, and I deeply regret moving here for this job. I had severence pay at the time from being laid off, and some savings, so I could have held out for a better deal, better people, or a better city.

      If you innocently ask and then get shut down, polish that resume!

  158. Zombeyonce*

    I recently broke a bone and am in a walking boot. It’s pretty warm where I’m at so I’d prefer to not wear socks if I can get away with it. Is letting a few toes show (maybe with some pretty polish) weird for a business casual environment (where everyone can wear jeans as long as they’re nice) or do I really need to bite the bullet and wear a sock on that foot?

    1. BeenThere*

      We wear open toed shoes all the time at my very professional office. Nothing wrong with that… especially since you will keep them polished. Plus, you’re in a boot! People need to give you a break (pun intended)!

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      are open-toed shoes allowed in the dress code? if so, you’re fine. if no, maybe ask?

      good luck healing!

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Honestly, a woman’s foot would be fine, but I think it would be weird if it were men’s toes hanging out of the boot. I’m not a fan of open-toed shoes at work in general, and while most dress codes allow open-toed shoes and sandals for women, I’m thankful I don’t have to see hairy man-toes at work. My husband and sons have freaky toes, and that’s all I can imagine in my brain right now.

    4. Rey*

      You’re in a walking boot, so I think you’re fine to not wear a sock. They don’t have to have polish, but they should be neatly trimmed/clean/not Frankenstein-ish?

    5. Colette*

      When I was in a boot, I wore … partial socks? I.e. socks with the toes cut off. I think it’s a good idea to have something between your skin and the boot padding, if only because you won’t be washing the boot padding all that often.

      But I don’t see an issue with your toes being visible.

    6. LCL*

      You are wearing an obvious medical device. The only thing anyone should say to you is to remind you not to go in the warehouse/production area, and to ask if they can get you anything. When I was wearing a boot I brought in a little fan and set it up on the floor aimed at the boot, because it got so hot.

    7. Your Mother*

      Totally fine, I’d think. I much prefer wearing a sock in a boot brace though.

      Also, here’s my hot tip for boot braces: Rocky Mountain brand foot and shoe deodorizing spray. You can get it online (I get it off Amazon) and it’s extremely effective. When I have to wear one, before getting in the shower I take out the bottom of the foot pad and spray it all over + the inside of the boot with the spray and then let it dry in front of a fan. Otherwise it is going to be FRAGRANT in there after a while! This totally works after it’s already stank, too.

      1. Zombeyonce*

        Any chance you have a link for that? I can’t find it on Amazon, only walmart’s site (but it’s unavailable there).

  159. OhGee*

    I had what felt like a very good phone interview for a job I really want this morning. Now I have to think about a quick thank you email and how to get through the waiting game for an in person interview. :):)

  160. Dame Judi Brunch*

    My manager is so frustrating. When you send an email to him, no matter how clear you are, he always questions what you meant. He acts like your message was poorly written. However, his emails back are not clear at all, particularly if you’ve asked a question. They do not include further instruction, or any info really.
    He does this with everybody.
    Any advice on how to respond to these so I get useful info? He is in a different office so walking over to see him in person isn’t an option.

      1. Dame Judi Brunch*

        I have done that, but don’t enjoy it. He ends up lecturing you and going off on tangents. You may not get your question answered even after all that, and he will end the call before you realize what happened.
        Calling is my last resort because then I think ok we’ve talked, he thinks we resolved any issues, but really we have not, and for some reason it reflects badly on me.
        It’s frustrating!

    2. Jack Be Nimble*

      Grrr, my brother does this! You have my sympathy but I have no solutions to offer you. Great username, btw!

      1. Dame Judi Brunch*

        Thank you! Credit goes to Bob’s Burgers for the name.
        If I come across a magic solution I’ll pass it along!

    3. Miss H*

      I have a former boss who was kind of similar. Anything long he had to read was an issue, and he made weird mistakes in writing. He didn’t blame me for this, but I would have to read things out to him. So, if he wanted me to proofread a report he wrote, I would mark it up super clearly (writing “capitalize this letter” instead of a triple-underline), and then he would have me sit by his computer and point out every change that needed to be made while he made the changes. (I did offer to just make the edits myself, but he refused.)

      I really think that your manager and my boss just have issues with the written word. While my boss was okay about it, yours is very defensive and blaming everyone else.

      You may have to stick to calling him. But try writing out your questions for yourself first so that you can write down answers/check them off as you talk, then after he has said something in answer, repeat back to him your interpretation. “So just to clarify, for the Williams case, you want me to process 37 alpacas using the Woolly scheme, and I will make for each alpaca five tiny paper hats. Do I have that right?”

  161. Canonical23*

    I made it through the final rounds of interviews! They contacted me to tell me they were running reference checks, so I’m very excited to see how this goes (and hopefully I’ll know the salary too)

  162. Envytee*

    I’ve been selected to move on to the second stage interview process an events position and they mentioned in the first interview that we would be asked to complete a project if selected for the 2nd phase. I’ve just gotten the outline of the project for the 2nd phase, and they are requesting that we submit 3 different proposals for 3 separate events, including budgets, marketing plans, staffing, logistics, income statements, as well as concept/design/themes. They have given us 7 days to complete these assignments. They have asked ALL CANDIDATES (8 people) and will short list for a second interview after they review the assignments. I’ve pushed back and asked how the assignments will be used (assessment purposes only) but the hiring manager has purposely dodged the question twice.

    Am I wrong to think that this is incredibly excessive? I know that you always say NEVER DO WORK FOR FREE, but if this is required for the next step, how can I go back to the hiring manager?

    1. beanie beans*

      That sounds excessive. I don’t know if there’s anything you can do about it, but just wanted to say that sounds like a LOT! I could see if they wanted you to submit examples of this that you’d done in the past, but create three new ones? Eek.

    2. Zombeyonce*

      That is asking WAY too much of finalists, especially that many of them! It makes me think they’re just doing this to get free work and don’t plan to hire any of you but just use what they like with no compensation. And if they really, legitimately think this is normal, then I don’t think you want to work for a place that treats people’s time so cavalierly, do you?

      I think you need to bow out of this hiring process and tell them you do not have the kind of time to put in to make something you’d be proud of. Basically anything to get you out of the hiring process without animosity while also letting them know this is a ridiculous ask (even if they aren’t scamming candidates).

    3. CAA*

      If you’ve asked twice and haven’t gotten a satisfactory answer, then I don’t think you can keep pushing. You will have to make up your own mind as to whether it’s worth it to you to put in this much effort for a 1 in 8 chance at the job. If you do decide to withdraw from consideration, you would likely be burning the bridge for future opportunities, but you could explain that you are just not willing to perform so many hours of uncompensated work without some assurance that it will only be used for assessment purposes as required by law.

    4. Susan K*

      This seems really excessive. I think it would be pushing it to ask you to do one of these, but why on earth do they need three? I could maybe see if they narrowed it down to the top two candidates and wanted you both to do a second assignment (but something that demonstrates different skills from the first assignment), but how is it going to help them to have three of the same type of work product from each person? How carefully are they even going to read all 24 of them, anyway?

      There have been lots of letters here about unreasonable requests for job applicants, and Alison usually says that you can bow out by saying that this amount of work would take you roughly X hours and you can’t fit that into your schedule, but you’d be happy to send an example of similar work you’ve done at your current job. Of course, as you have already realized, you can’t do this unless you are prepared to be removed from consideration for this job.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I don’t know how long it takes to put together three full proposals but on the surface that sounds excessive. I mean, if it’s an hour each, that’s not too bad but the type of info they require sounds like it would be a pretty big time investment. At the very least, it’s excessive for anything but the last step in the process, not the 2nd phase of a multi-phase process.

      Given that the hiring manager has been ignoring the question on assignment use, I’m guessing the reason they are assigning this when there are still so many candidates is to get the largest selection of event concepts they can. I would not be surprised at all if the winning candidate has these event plans as their job.

      If you want to attempt to stay in the running, I would offer only a portfolio of projects you’ve already done, no new work at all. Alternately, you could recast three of your past events as your event plans with a small note that these events occurred on XYZ dates for ABC companies. But, all things considered, I would probably bow out.

  163. Grumpy Old Lady*

    Anyone ever get the feeling that the party planning committee plans the all-department evens with only their own needs in mind? Our last two summer events have been oriented towards small children (note I did not say “adults with small children”). This year’s is an all-day event, and people can come and go as they please for 1 hour or 8 hrs, which is nice for schedule-constrained people, but not great for meeting up with your coworkers and having a chance to catch up outside work. Plus, it’s at a kid-oriented venue. I know of few adults who go here without kids under 12. My kids are in college and high school — busy and not interested. I could get my husband to go by framing it as a work networking event, but since people won’t really be there at the same time, that doesn’t make sense. We aren’t going to go on our own because it doesn’t interest us, and I won’t go by myself because I may not bump into any of my coworkers. There are definitely worse things, but this event used to be attending an MLB game. . .

    1. Zombeyonce*

      I think if you want to change it, you’ll need to join the party planning committee and include your voice.

      1. CAA*

        +1. If everyone on the committee has small children, then you are going to keep getting events that are best for families with small children.

      2. Grumpy Old Lady*

        Okay, agreed, but in this case it is not literally a committee. It’s the department admin. She gets buy-in from management, but I think our manager doesn’t care what we do as long someone is taking care of it. I’m sure it’s not an easy task, as we have a lot of age diversity in our department, ranging from new grad singles up to empty nesters. (Which would make an employee-only event make more sense, possibly.)

        1. Zombeyonce*

          Then maybe it’s time to start a committee. I’ll bet the admin would like having some help, since these sorts of things can be really tough to put together.

          1. BeenThere*

            I so agree! This kind of stuff used to fall on me all the time. I am, fortunately, in a position now to say… get someone else! But at the time, I could only do what I could do on my own. Please offer to help her!!

        2. WellRed*

          Are you able ir willing to speak up. Aside from locating an event at Chuck E cheese, 8 hours is ridiculous for exactly the reasons you mention.

  164. Triplestep*

    An article came up in my Linkedin Newsfeed entitled “Six Reasons Why Ghosting Ruins the Candidate Experience”. I will link to it in the comments here, but I am fantasizing about sending it to a few hiring managers I’ve met during my current job search once I actually get a job. One is a firm I could easily be in the position to hire in the future.

    Would you do it?

  165. Fresh Faced*

    Having some bad luck lately with interviewers just not getting back to me after we meet. I end up having to follow up 2-4 weeks later.(I always ask when I should expect to hear their decision, then I add a week). Ethier to get rejected or ignored. It’s just super rude!?

    1. Zombeyonce*

      It’s definitely rude, but also common. Alison says a lot that hiring processes often take much, much longer than hiring managers expect. Odds are that if you are rejected after checking in, you would have been rejected anyway, so no reason to stop checking in based on your (reasonable) timeline.

    2. Triplestep*

      It is totally super rude. I’m sorry this is happening to you – it is happening to me as well; I just posted a link above to an article about “ghosting” that was published on a staffing company’s blog. It makes me feel a bit less alone when I stop to think about how common it is, and the piece does a good job of outlining how damaging it is to employers who do it. Hopefully that’s some small consolation for you, too.

  166. E. Jennings*

    My intern this summer was only OK, and I feel like it was my fault. Her work itself was fine — the most important stuff she had to do got done, usually close enough to the deadline that it didn’t matter much, and she improved on some key skills. She was totally adequate!

    But she just didn’t show a lot of initiative — both on little things (she never started the day ultraprepared, she didn’t raise her hand for small tasks, she’d ask senior people out to coffee and expect them to schedule around her, she dressed unusually casually even for a fairly casual office without a dress code) and big ones (when I’d give her a more challenging project, with plenty of guidance, it would sort of vanish into a black hole — admittedly I didn’t give her a hard deadline in most cases, though). I didn’t want to tell her to do work outside her paid hours, but I also know the workload she had should have allowed her to do a little bit more to really stand out.

    Maybe I could have done a better job coaching her on this stuff. I was pretty clueless when I was 22, and I thought the fact that *I* knew I cared a lot about doing a good job would obviously communicate itself without any action on my part. I swore I’d be better than my managers were about this, but I guess I’m now old and I want the interns to try twice as hard as everybody else in the office, darn it.

    1. Zombeyonce*

      Unfortunately, pretty much everything you mentioned that bothered you are exactly the things you need to be coaching interns on. They’re new to the workforce and this is their opportunity to learn workplace norms they may have never seen before. Coaching about professional dress, time management, and how to work with senior staff are all things you need to be teaching your interns.

      Please take this to heart for your next intern! Help them be successful! They really don’t know these things unless someone tells them, and as their supervisor, you’re supposed to be that person. It’s the whole point of an internship, really.

      1. AeroEngineer*

        Yes, this. I had a 6 month internship years ago, and I was not taking initiative for the first few months, mainly because I had never been told that I was allowed to/was supposed to. The interns around me all had different experiences and supervisor guidance and expectations, and the expectations I was under ended up being quite a lot different than any of the other interns. This made for a rude awakening halfway through the internship, for both me and my supervisor actually, and while I felt super shitty that day, I stepped it up and ended the internship on a really good note.

        Next time, be explicit in what you want and expect at the beginning and perhaps at one or two points during the internship, as someone who has in essence been thrown into the deep end might not be able to get a handle on the work as well as pick up on hinted or non-verbal guidance.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      I think there is a really thin line between “showing initiative” and “problematic gumption”. I have definitely not volunteered for stuff because I wasn’t sure it was my place to do so. This is not something you just know when you are inexperienced

  167. LPBB*

    Hopefully this doesn’t get buried!

    Library people — how literally is “library experience” meant in job listings? Are people usually referring to working in a literal library or is it short-hand for experience in a library science profession?

    Since graduating from library school, I worked on a 9 month project getting a donation of corporate records ready to be donated to a museum, I spent 2.5 years working for a library vendor in a role that required an MLIS, and now I’ve spent a little over 2 years at an actual library doing actual library-type work.

    This position will end soon in all likelihood, so I’m looking around for options. There is one position that I’m interested in that wants “1-2 years library experience.” I am a very literal person, so I consider myself to only have 2 years of library experience, but will I look out of touch if I apply since I have that additional 3 years of library science work?

    2. JessicaTate*

      I’m also not a library person, and also say apply. I am always reminded of the study that showed women tend to see job requirements that they might not technically quite meet, and they don’t apply; a man with the same resume, sees that job and applies. Knowing that helped me apply to a job that I thought I might not be quite qualified enough for, and I got the offer. If the hiring folks mean something REALLY specific, they’ll sort you out. But often, they aren’t that literal.

      And it doesn’t matter what gender you are, LPBB. It was just that study that always helps me assess my own self-doubts about such things. Good luck!!

    3. PB*

      I’m a librarian, and do a good bit of hiring. For a position that required 1-2 years of experience, I’d likely want to at least do a phone interview with you. You’ve been doing library work, and honestly, dealing with vendors can be so frustrating, having someone with experience working with a vendor would be a huge plus for a lot of positions. And honest, 1-2 years generally means “Don’t apply if you have no experience, or if you have 10+ years.” Librarians are a pretty literal bunch overall, but a good hiring manager will be more concerned with hiring the right person.

      So, I’d say, go for it! Good luck!

  168. Parker*

    Does anyone have good strategies for getting employees’ attention when they have headphones in? I have an employee who sits facing away from the office and wears headphones (many of our staff do – it is not in itself a problem). He has expressed that he hates it when we tap him on the shoulder or wave a hand in front of his face to get his attention – and my opinion is that this builds up irritation in him that causes him to interact with coworkers in a way that is legitimately a problem (we have talked to him about it but I am trying to see if there are ways to help him).

    Does anyone have strategies for this? I’ve thought about getting him a mirror – has anyone used this successfully? Any other ideas?

      1. Zombeyonce*

        This is what I do. They can generally see your arm coming in and if not, they may hear the noise or vibration on the desk. You definitely don’t want to be touching them.

        I also have a mirror on my wall since I face the inside corner of my cubicle that helps, but I’d say you should recommend that rather than getting one for them.

    2. LQ*

      Desk/door/wall knocking is a tool I use a lot. Have you just asked him what his preferred method of getting his attention is? He could even put up a little sign saying, “If I’ve got headphones in please knock twice.” Or if he only wears them when he’s heads down and needs to get though stuff, “If I’ve got headphones in I’m focusing, please send me an email unless it’s on fire urgent.” (Or whatever.)

    3. Triplestep*

      I design offices – many of them open space environments – and I do workshops with groups transitioning to open space. This is a topic that comes up now and then.

      I always tell people not to wave, tap peole or knock on their desks – those can feel really invasive. I usually suggest people stand in someone’s peripheral vision until they look up, but it sounds like that’s not possible with your staff-member. Mirrors do work for some people – they sell them in hardware stores for adding to the side view mirrors of large vehicles. But if this guy really does get deep in thought, a mirror might not do it. I’ve seen people get someone nearby to IM people whose attention is needed. If he does not have his IM set up to get pop up messages, ask him to change it.

      I’m someone with an over-sensitive startle response. “Fear” and “Anger” are very close on the emotional response spectrum – I have been known to snap at family-members who startle me, and when my kids were little and playfully hid and then jumped out at me, I would react angrily. So I can relate to your staff-member, but it is partly his responsibility to find a solution.

      1. Triplestep*

        In the time it took me to type this, others have suggested knocking, so I’d like to reiterate – to those startled easily it is no different than being tapped or having a hand waved in front of your face.

        Letting a person feel your presence as you patiently wait in their peripheral vision for them to notice you is so much less jarring. Yes, it takes longer to get someone’s attention this way, but it’s worth it.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          I’m sorry, but if I’ve got an issue that needs to be fixed right now in person, I’m not going to patiently wait for them to notice me. Also, it just feels so passive and weird when you think about power dynamics. What if a boss or subordinate makes you wait a minute or two. It would get weird fast.

          1. Triplestep*

            Everyone is different and has different thresholds when it comes to concentration and interruptions in open space environments. This is what I try to convey when I lead these workshops. I don’t think you’re really saying that if we worked together and I asked you not to knock on my desk but rather stand in my peripheral vision for five seconds you’d say “no, I need your attention five seconds sooner.” Correct me if I’m wrong, though!

        2. Nessun*

          I unfortunately have little peripheral vision, and it’s even worse when I leave my hair down. I’d much rather someone knock lightly on the far end of the desk – the vibration will encourage me to look up. If I look up and just see someone standing there in the corner of my eye, that’s what makes me jump! Takes all kinds, I suppose.

          1. Triplestep*

            Yup, see what I wrote above re: everyone is different. The key is to figure out what works best with the people you work with the most. It’s not one size fits all.

            In the case of the OP’s staff-member, I do think he has some burden to come up with something that works and then ask people to use that method.

      2. fposte*

        I was thinking myself that it could be a startle response problem. But in that case I’m inclined to agree that it goes back on him–if he’s cut himself off from ways to gradually notice people, the possibilities remaining are going to be abrupt. Do you offer recommendations for such cases? I suppose email/Slack/whatever could work, though I’d recommend he be as pleasant as possible when asking people to do that if it’s otherwise a drop-by office.

      3. Parker*

        It sounds like I have to talk to him more about it. I thought the knocking suggestion was good but we’ll see if that works for him. A big part of the problem is that he doesn’t respond right away on Slack, so people do feel like they have to physically go up to him.

        1. Anon today*

          It sounds like what he really wants is for everyone to leave him alone, which isn’t really an option. Tell him to choose between the headphones or a reasonable way of getting his attention when needed. Possibly he can keep the volume low enough that he can hear when people try to get his attention. That is what I do.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Put it back on him. He wants to wear headphones, but doesn’t want his shoulder tapped or wave a hand. He needs to come up with a solution.

      1. Jaid_Diah*

        The music would “leak”. I have a co-worker who occasionally does this and I find it pretty annoying.

        If I have to get someone’s attention, I’ll tap or scratch on the chair itself.

    8. BRR*

      Echoing Annie Moose, ask him what he prefers. A mirror works for some, it depends if you notice it. Can he change his set up so he won’t be facing away from the office? It might just come down to he can’t have it all.

    9. The Other CC*

      We have a rule that you can only have an earbud (or headphone, I guess, if that were possible) in one ear at a time while working, and as a courtesy to one another we also keep the volume low enough to avoid too much noise leakage out of the other earbud. Not great when you’re listening to music in stereo, but good enough for listening to Planet Money, and I thought it was a decent compromise. My coworker who used to wear noise-cancelling headphones was told to switch because it was basically impossible to get her attention while she was plugged in even if you spoke loudly and waved your hands around in her peripheral vision.

  169. Sara M*

    Hi! I need help with handling my weakness please.

    I struggle with ADHD and fibromyalgia. I’m working on putting organization into place to remedy this, but honestly it’s going to be a long uphill battle. I’m a freelancer, so I have no boss.

    My question is specifically about email. Until I’m able to better handle my emails, what are good and professional ways to handle the constant cases of “oops, you already sent me the thing” and “righto, you invited me to that event last week”? Things like that.

    I usually meet any important commitments, but anything that’s a maybe, or has no deadline, or just wants information I have to research–those things are all flying by me.

    Suggestions for handling these things professionally? How much do I mention the medical issues? (I don’t mind at all, but I don’t want to be a pile of excuses.)

    Thanks!

    1. Jack Be Nimble*

      “Sorry for the delay, here’s the x!” If you want you can say, “Sorry for the delay, I was a bit under the weather/dealing with a flare-up of a chronic condition, but I’m feeling much better. Here’s the x!”

      Apologize, but don’t dwell on it. An extended, slavering apology usually tends to make people uncomfortable, because it puts them in the awkward position of having to comfort/reassure you.

    2. fposte*

      I think the answer here is to find a protocol that handles the maybe, deadline-free, research questions. Put them in your calendar, maybe? Being on top of things like that really makes a reputation as a freelancer, so I think it’s quite likely worth your while to commit to an organization plan.

      1. Sara M*

        You’re right, I do need to prioritize this, and I will do my best to fix it. I hate feeling so scattered. :(

    3. anonymoushiker*

      I am honestly not sure! I have ADD and I’ve been failing at remembering details. I’m usually apologetic in the moment if I forget a conflicting calendar event. I think including language that you’re putting longer term solutions in place to keep this from happening.

    4. BRR*

      I wouldn’t mention your medical issues. I add due dates to anything that doesn’t have them and leave things unread until I’ve replied.

    5. E. Jennings*

      Fellow ADHD-er here!

      –Look into the Boomerang extension for gmail, if you use Gmail — it lets you pick a time for an email to pop back up in your inbox as if it’s new.

      –Reply to every email that needs a reply immediately and give yourself a deadline for when you’ll give them a real answer: “Thanks for reaching out. I need to do a little more research before I give you a solid yes or no, but I’ll let you know by EOD Thursday.”

      –Triage: If you can, concentrate doing this well on the people you have important, ongoing relationships with. It matters a lot less to send a “oh, so sorry, I somehow missed this email until now” message as a one-off (it happens to everyone sometimes, they don’t know that you sent 20 of those emails) than to do it routinely.

      This all applies to ADHD rather than fibromyalgia, but I wouldn’t think twice about receiving a businesslike “I’m sorry it’s taken me a few days longer than I expected to reply to this — I have a chronic health condition and it flared up unexpectedly” email in response if that’s an option.

  170. nep*

    I went to a particularly fantastic library this past week. A municipal one, just a couple cities over. A lot of people had raved about it and told me I had to check it out; they were right. Just a shout-out and thanks to librarians and other people involved in programming and the like–all those who make this local greatness happen.

  171. anonymoushiker*

    I talked about an internal role a few weeks ago. I had the interview and they talked about setting up a second interview at the end of that hour. As it turns out, instead, I didn’t get this role, but the manager wants to find a role for me in their department. They sent me the ideas and I’m struggling to not be annoyed at it since the proposed role is a lateral down-shift in responsibilities. (They know from the interview that I am interested in a new challenge and growth in skills and this role would be a continuance of things I currently do, but with less responsibility). If you’ve dealt with something like this, did you engage in the design of the possible new role or not? How did you handle it?

  172. Oh my!*

    Leaving out major parts of the job description “because it didn’t fit in the word count” and then mentioning it at the interview, is that a red flag?

    Say you were prepared for pots and pans with other tasks and skills, but then they mentioned “Oh, it’s actually going to be with shoes and laces, and you’ll be supervising the shoes. But we couldn’t fit that in the description. Do you want to proceed?”

    It threw me for an entire loop but I preceded with the interview. If I had known that was the actual job, I probably would be less likely to apply. I’m still interested in the company, but does this bode unwell for the company? Or just a regular snafu?

    1. nep*

      To me it sounds like quite some incompetence at best–at worst, intention to mislead. Even if not a reason to drop it, important elements to weigh. I might be way off base–will be interested in how others see this.

    2. E. Jennings*

      Hmm that seems like a red flag to me (and definitely a reason to drop out, if you don’t want to work with shoes and laces). I’ll sometimes post a fairly vague job description publicly with a paragraph or so about the job, and then expand on it with a pagelong job descriptions with specific examples of what the day to day is like that I give people in writing if I’m interested in interviewing them. But it doesn’t actually contradict what the initial posting says.

    3. BRR*

      I was typing out that the word count might be beyond the hiring manager’s control (and it might) but I’ve never heard of that being a hard line, I would imagine it would be character count instead of word count, and people typically stink at writing job descriptions so I imagine they could have included it somehow.

    4. Anon today*

      I think it depends. It definitely means that they are not great at advertising the position. If the description said that you would be working pots and pans in the description and that turned out not to be true, that is a red flag. If you assumed it was pots and pans related then it isn’t a red flag.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve seen all sorts of issues with job descriptions on sites like Glassdoor and Indeed – the formatting goes wonky, sometimes it’s just the first part of what is clearly intended to be a longer description, or in a few cases, the text of the job description is the error message obtained when trying to access a faulty URL. But given the lengths that some of those job descriptions reach, I wouldn’t think a word count limitation is in play.

      However, if the parts that were left out of the job description are parts that few people would like, that sounds strategic and definitely an orange, if not red, flag. I mean, they left out what sounds like THE primary component of the job – what did they have room for? (The appealing stuff to get applications rolling in) At least it’s good that they were upfront with the possible bait and switch in the interview, rather than on the first day.

  173. Anonymous for this*

    This is weird situation, but I just wanted to throw it out and see what people think.

    I was fired from a terrible job two years ago. I was horribly overworked, burnt out and unhappy. I could never get anyone in management to listen to me or to address the issues that were bothering me (mostly under-staffing and overwork). After being fired I did criticize management with former coworkers and with some friends of people who work at my former employer for not addressing those issues and for treating me badly. But that was a couple of years ago.

    So, a week or so ago, I was a passenger sitting in the front seat of a car being driven by my sister. We had stopped at a Stop sign and were waiting for traffic to pass so we could turn left and get onto the cross street. Coming down the cross street is one of my old bosses in a new car. She was signalling to turn left onto the street that my sister and I were on, so we had to wait for her to turn in front of us, before we could turn left and go on our way.

    “What a jerk!” my sister says. “That woman just flipped us off.” And it was my former boss. I assume she was flipping me off. My sister didn’t know that it was my former boss until I told her. How very weird.

    1. Rey*

      I would let it go and never think of it again because there is nothing you can do about it. I would assume that you mis-saw and that she didn’t really flip you off, but even if she did do it on-purpose, it shouldn’t change your response (which is to do nothing). You have moved on with your life and hopefully she will too.

    3. Drama Llama*

      Lol. That says much more about her than it does about you. Congratulations on escaping that toxic environment.

    4. Drama Llama*

      My coworker is married to a sexist pig and it’s affecting the rest of us.

      He firmly believes “a woman’s work” should not inconvenience his life in any way. They both work shift jobs, but because they have to work around their kid’s school hours, her availability to work depends on his roster. Basically his working hours come first and she has to schedule herself into shifts around his shifts.

      The entire past 2 months we’ve rostered her around her husband’s working hours at an inconvenience and sometimes financial loss to the business. She will only come to work between 9am-3pm during her kid’s school hours, which is really hard to cater to without affecting profit and other employees’ schedules.

      On Monday she and her husband are both rostered to start work early morning (around 5am). Because child care isn’t available until 7am, it’s automatically her parental duty to not come into work. If her kid is sick, only she takes time off – never the husband. She also wants to take time off work every single school holidays, which is where we’re at our busiest.

      I put my foot down for the shift on Monday to say I can’t let her take time off work unless she finds someone else to cover for her. Her response is that she just can’t do it.

      1. Girl friday*

        Drop her down to 20h week min flex schedule, and hire someone else for 20h max flex schedule. If you can prove that she has only been available for 9-3 in the past? Not a lawyer though. She may not want him to watch them; he may work 2 jobs, etc.. If her benefits and salary don’t change, you could be helping her.

  174. Stuff*

    So tomorrow’s my last day in retail (I hope). Next week I start working as a GIS technician part time while attending a Master of Urban Planning program full time. I actually have no idea how this transition to the office environment is going to go. I’m a jaded, salty retail veteran at this point, and I’m accustomed to a bitter, pessimistic view of management in particular (I actually hate how retail has made me turn into a jackass to survive). My number one priority in retail is to avoid managers ever touching my department. I’ve worked in places where there should be a supervisor for the Electronics department, there isn’t, and the Electronics team is self directed enough to function without having managers step in and fill the leadership gap. I pride myself on that. “Better to ask forgiveness than permission” is what I live by, as I make judgement calls myself instead of asking management. In most retail environments I’ve worked in, this attitude actually worked really well. It’s only when I shifted from Sales Floor to Logistics and ended up under micromanagers that it fell apart.

    I don’t think this’ll work in an office. In the retail companies I’ve worked for, you can usually safely assume management has no idea what they’re doing, so minimizing their involvement in day to day operation makes sense. Most managers are fresh out of college, and the only qualification that gets them hired as managers is a Bachelor’s degree. They are not hired based on experience, demonstrated leadership capabilities, or any other sensible metric, and they’re overworked and constantly threatened with discipline over unrealistic expectations. This isn’t the case where I’m going to be working. Management is, I’m guessing, hired or promoted based on actual qualifications, is more competant, and more trustworthy.

    I’m worried about how easy it’ll be to transition to this new environment, especially since I have autism, so once I transition into a specific social mindset, it’s hard to break. I don’t want to bring my bitter, jaded attitude into my first step in what I want to become my career path.

    1. LQ*

      I wrote out some practice cards for myself on my first day. Things like smile and do Polite things a lot helps. I lean very heavily on polite, which I think can translate well from retail as long as the salt can be washed away a bit. Thinking of coworkers and even bosses as good customers helped. (They are different, but my experience is there’s a lot of the attitude there that can translate.)
      The GIS work sounds really cool. It’s one of the jobs I wonder about a different life me going down.

    2. Close Bracket*

      > Management is, I’m guessing, hired or promoted based on actual qualifications, is more competant, and more trustworthy.

      NOPE! Managers tend to get promoted bc they are good individual contributors and they fit in with the rest of the managers. *coughmiddleagedwhiteguysmarriedwithkidscough* It is NEVER bc they are qualified to be managers. Some of them understand the difference between managing a project and managing people, but don’t count on it.

      My advice is first, do some research on what is considered good management. Reading this blog is one way to figure this out. Another is to read the Harvard Business Review. When you start, listen more than you talk, observe how people interact, and watch your managers for behaviors of good managers vs behaviors of bad managers. Withhold judgement until you have collected enough data.

      > I have autism

      I hope you’re not female (source: Am female. Am on the spectrum.). Regardless of gender, smile a lot, even if you don’t think you should. Practice scrunching up the corners of your eyes so it looks genuine. Remember to use all those unnecessary words that NTs like. Try to catch yourself taking this literally and correcting people over their language when they are sloppy. They don’t care, and they will think you are nitpicking. If you have a tendency toward aspie-splaining, try to rein that in. Again, they don’t care.

      Good luck.

  175. Kristin*

    I really think fluorescent lights should be illegal. They emit UV rays for goodness sakes! My skin is suffering and I get eye twitches and migraines. The only thing that’s helped is applying sunscreen and wearing computer glasses. So ridiculous. Is it just me? Are they illegal in places?

    1. fposte*

      So do incandescent bulbs, FWIW. It looks like there are acrylic shields you can get–can you ask about those? (The eye-twitches and migraines might not be the UV, though.) It looks like LED lights are less likely to emit UV, so maybe it’d be worth trying LED substitutes to see if they help.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t mind the fluorescent lights as long as they are high up in the ceiling and flush mounted/flat.
      But I worked at one place that was an open office, and the lights were the tube type that hung down low over the desks. It was horrible! Those literally hurt my eyes and were giving me migraines from the pulsing. It got so bad, I put an umbrella over my computer monitor. I’m a designer, and I simply can’t work like that. I quit soon after.

  176. Stuff*

    I had a longer post, but the website ate it.

    I’m transitioning from years of being full or quasi full time in particularly dysfunctional retail to an office job soon, and I don’t know I’ll handle the massive change in manager-employee relations this entails.

    I’m used to assuming a manager doesn’t know what they’re doing until they prove otherwise, and minimizing how involved in my work they can get as best I can. Where I work, this attitude is a protective measure any long term veteran has adopted. Managers are hired directly out of college 90% of the time, with a Bachelor’s being their only qualification. They aren’t promoted from lower ranks on account of demonstrated merit or experience, and a shocking number have never even worked retail. If they have, this is usually the first time they’ve had authority. This is usually their first full time job, they aren’t given much, if any, support, they have to work far longer hours than recruiters tell them, and they’re constantly being reprimanded and attacked for not meeting unrealistic expectations. As a general rule, they burn out and quit or get fired within a year or two. They tend to be confused, overwhelmed, and some lash out at their employees because their own situation is so toxic. So, we lower people usually assume even the nice ones really don’t understand what to do or why, and try to keep them away from our work.

    I seriously doubt this attitude towards management will fly in my new office job. If it does, then this office job isn’t a fit for me. My current environment is toxic, and this management dynamic is NOT good. My worry is, this attitude is so ingrained (and I’m autistic, so when things are ingrained, they’re ingrained deeply), and I need a way to break out of it quickly before I start my new job and have problems (I really don’t want there to be problems).

    1. Gatomon*

      Toxicity aside, most managers don’t actually know how to do what their employees do, at least not 100% of the job. Sometimes they can/do step in for them in a limited capacity, but typically an employee does the taskwork and the managers set direction/tasks, manage processes and policies and perform higher-level, more abstract work. They may not need to know precisely how to do the job of the people they supervise to be successful. Even if they were promoted from the position they supervise, odds are their knowledge has faded/grown obsolete over time.

      I think the key to your transition will be remembering that your new managers haven’t proven themselves to be inept yet. I don’t think you’ll find them too interested in the gritty details of your work unless they’re training you themselves, or things aren’t going well. I’ve had managers who literally could not do my job if they tried and managers who could and did fill in when we were short-handed. Still I’ve always found managers to be a good resource for direction, process (how it SHOULD work) and general policy, but I trust coworkers more when I need to know how to actually do a task. For example, my manager knows the teapot ordering process flow and that custom color orders can’t be changed after the teapot is ordered from the manufacturer. If I need to know how to input an order for a custom color on a teapot, I ask one of my teammates.

      You’ll have to wait and see if your manager will be more hands-on or hands-off I guess. I used to work in a very hands-on micromanaging toxic job, and I struggled when I changed employers to a place that was very hands-off. I had an anxiety attack because wasn’t sure if I could go to lunch on my first day — nobody told me when or if I could go, they just expected me to do it. I was terrified to ask my boss and terrified to go without permission. It took me a while to adjust and become comfortable, but I have found I prefer things this way. If you’re used to only reaching out when necessary, a more hands-off management style may suit you better too.

  177. Brightlights*

    I could use some script help. I am a member of the North American division of our international parent company and two years ago I worked with the Spain division on a project for Spain’s clients that used NA’s software to produce e-training on llama grooming. The Spain people were very pushy and were constantly trying to go beyond the parameters our respective management set for our collaboration, like how much NA support they would receive to do this work vs. what they needed to do themselves. The project finished and we went our separate ways. Now, Spain has been granted permission to use our software again to produce e-training on specialized grooming techniques for alpacas. I wasn’t aware this was happening until recently, when my contacts from Spain started sending me emails asking for help using the software. In the intervening time I’ve been promoted significantly and this is no longer part of my job. However, the support they need is a sufficiently specialized application that there are very few people in the company who can help them.

    One of our company higher ups works with international collaborations like this and I think she is probably facilitating the Spain alpaca thing. Is it out of line if I write her and ask:

    “Can you tell me what our agreement with Spain provides them in terms of access to NA support? They are writing me several times a month asking questions that could be answered in the training documentation I’ve sent them and continuing to address these questions is taking me away from my regular work [on a high profile company initiative of which this person is aware.] Is this level of support within our agreement? If so, I am no longer the right person to provide it and can recommend that they reach out to Other Department, should their leadership agree that this is an appropriate expansion of their role.”

    Is there a better way I can address this?

    1. Nice Going Angelica*

      Yep, it is totally fine to send an email like that. In fact, something even simpler, like this would work: “I’ve gotten a few emails from the Spain division about NA support. It’s great that we’re partnering with them again! This is actually no longer part of my job description, so I’m going to direct them to Other Department, unless there’s someone else they should be working with.”

      I actually don’t think you need to include anything about how it’s taking you away from your work. This literally isn’t part of your job anymore! And the international collaborations person might not know that, or might not have connected the dots even if she does know it.

      If she says that she thinks you’re supposed to be providing this support, you can connect with your manager on how best to respond.

      1. Nice Going Angelica*

        And, by the way, I think it’s also totally fine for you to respond to the folks in Spain saying, “I actually don’t provide support on this e-training any longer! I would suggest you check out the documentation, and reach out to Other Department if you have any questions.”

    2. LQ*

      Even if you are the actual person who will answer the questions directing them through the correct department and making that department come to you is the right thing long term. I’ve offloaded a big chunk of work and I keep directing people to Other Department, knowing that Other Department is going to come and ask me for the answer. Heck sometimes I’ll just respond to the asker directing them to Other Department and then forward the message to Other Department with the answer to their query. But that way Other Department gets to learn how to do this and becomes the right contact.

    3. Someone Else*

      I like your response a lot because if it’s not supposed to be in scope that NA is supporting them, it’s good for you to know. Then you can either cut them off from asking you or the correct department, or have the higher ups who confirmed it to you do that. They may not even be aware of the overreach. You could potentially leave out the bit about your new role, unless the person you’d be talking to doesn’t already understand that doing this shouldn’t be part of your role anyway. But getting clarification of scope is excellent because then if it turns out they are entitled to this support, they can get redirected, but if they’re not it can be stopped entirely.

  178. Not Maeby But Surely*

    A couple of random rants/vents:
    – I love what I call Food Days at work; I really do. Something about having food around makes the day a little better. However, I cringe once the lunch time has passed and I see all the food still sitting out, quickly approaching the unsafe end of the food safety window.
    -Phishing emails are a big issue in my real estate/banking related industry, so they rightly put a lot of emphasis on not falling victim to the ploys used in the emails (the faux sense of urgency, etc.). We have a button in our email system that allows us to mark an email with “Phishing Alert” and the email gets sent to our IT people. All fine so far. It drives me crazy when I mark an email as phishing and then get an automated response: Good job! The email you marked was a simulated phishing attack conducted by [our company]. Thank you for your attention to (blah blah blah). Really? I mean, I kinda get having some test emails so make sure people are on the ball, but to tell them that after they’ve done the correct action? I don’t understand the logic.

    1. wingmaster*

      I love food! Sometimes, if I see leftover food, I’ll grab some containers and take some…it’s free lunch for me haha.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      We get the test phishing emails too and if you do the correct thing, nothing happens. If you fall for it and click on it, you get sent to a training on how to recognize them

      1. Not Maeby But Surely*

        This approach makes more sense to me – I wish that’s how they would handle it here.

    3. Susan K*

      That drives me crazy with the food sitting out, too. I always put it in the fridge once everyone has stopped eating. I work a rotating schedule, so I’m often not there when we have department lunches/parties. I am supposed to be grateful that they saved leftovers for me, but I will not touch it if I don’t know how long it sat at room temperature. It’s just not worth the risk.

  179. Liz T*

    Ahhhhhhh I just turned down a third interview why was that so scary???

    It was 100% the right call but it feels so foreign!

  180. Daphne*

    Might be too late to the thread here, and my concerns may be too vague to know what I’m really asking advice on. Basically I’m early 30s, living at home to save money and it’s getting to crunch time to decide “what I want to be when I grow up”. I’m currently have two part time jobs – one is a retail job that has a management program but not connected to my field of study, the other is an ongoing contract at an arts centre. I thought the arts centre job was a fitting side step seeing that I went to art school and haven’t found a job at a studio and don’t have the security or reputation to go freelance. Turns out that I’m not enjoying a lot of the work and basically making it up as I go along. I’m only in two days a week but have found I have to be ‘available’ on other days like via email which is grinding me down too (on top of my shifts at other job). There’s no one to really train me on things as we’re a small team and I’m essentially my own department, and feel I drop the ball on a lot of things that are my strengths anyway.

    I had decided that I wasn’t going to accept a contract extension later in the year and apply for a transfer with the retail job. This means I can move out, it’s an ‘easy’ job with benefits while I decide whether to enter the management program or pursue something else. However my arts centre boss sat me down this week to say that retail isn’t where I should be and I really need to decide what the best path is so she can provide me with appropriate projects going forward. Flattering, but I genuinely don’t know! I feel like if I say look, I want to move away and just want a secure job for now I’ll scupper a future reference/lose respect from her/something?

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You say you went to art school. Do you want to be doing arts administration or do you want to be creating art? If it’s the latter, I would suggest going with the retail management job to make a living and carving out time to focus on creating art on the side. My hunch is that the job at the arts centre isn’t a stepping stone to a career as an artist.

      1. Daphne*

        True, but I was struggling to make it ‘work’ as an artist and felt at least I was in a part of the industry I thought I could be passionate about. All the creative stuff is on hold for now – pursuing it seriously means starting over with my portfolio again and I’ve no idea if I’ll succeed so I’m hesitant to say to people that it’s a definite plan right now, and just lean on the retail side for now. Ugh! Decisions decisions!

  181. Susan K*

    Once a week, the chocolate teapot makers in my department have to calibrate the chocolate melter. The chocolate melter was recently upgraded to a model with digital controls, and due to cyber security requirements, an elevated security clearance is needed to access the digital controls.

    The chocolate teapot makers do not have the required level of clearance, so when they calibrate the chocolate melter, their options are (1) get someone from another department with the required security clearance to accompany them during the calibration (which is not easy because other departments don’t want to spend their time on this), or (2) call IT to have them operate the digital controls remotely (also inconvenient because the digital controls are operated multiple times during the calibration, there is sometimes a wait to get IT to do it, and IT doesn’t want to spend their time on this).

    The obvious solution is to have all the chocolate teapot makers get a higher security clearance, but management doesn’t want to give them a higher clearance, and it would require additional background checks. I just found out that I actually do have the required clearance. I think my manager just made a mistake on my hiring paperwork and requested a higher clearance than I needed, but I met all the requirements and now I have it, and I’m pretty sure I’m the only one in my department with that level. I’m a chocolate teapot designer now, but I started out as a chocolate teapot maker, so I should have only needed the same clearance as the rest of my department.

    I’m thinking about offering to accompany the chocolate teapot makers for the weekly calibrations so they don’t have to deal with IT or find someone from another department. It would definitely be more convenient for them to call me than the other two options, but I’m not sure if they would appreciate it enough to make it worth the hassle for me. I’m concerned that if they get used to me doing this, that I won’t be able to get out of it if I’m really busy with my own work (or they’ll take it for granted and get mad at me if I ever say no). Plus, there are some other things that will be upgraded to digital controls in the next couple of years, and if I offer to help with the first one, I will probably be expected to help with all of them, which will be a much bigger commitment. Finally, if I make it more convenient, management might continue to believe that it’s not a problem that the chocolate teapot makers don’t have a high enough clearance to do the calibration themselves; maybe if IT or people from other departments complain about having to help our department so much, management will have to give the chocolate teapot makers a higher clearance.

    I want to be a team player, but I also know that no good deed goes unpunished. What would you do?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      This sounds like it might be a good short term solution, but the company needs to find a more workable long term solution because if you leave (or get hit by a bus) they will be back to square one.

      1. Susan K*

        There are still two other options without my help, and they are doable (the teapot makers have been doing it like that for a few weeks now, before I realized I had a higher security clearance than they do) but inconvenient. I won’t be around for the calibration every week, anyway, so I’m not that concerned about them not knowing what to do if I get hit by a bus. I’m just afraid that if I try to be nice and help them out when I can, I will be stuck doing it every time I’m there on calibration day, and that when other digital upgrades happen, I will have backed myself into a corner. Then again, I feel bad about our department asking other departments to help us when there is someone (me) within the department who can do it most of the time.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      I’m on team “no good deed goes unpunished” for this one, for all the reasons you listed. It’s not currently your problem to solve, so offering to help solve it would only lead to more demands on you. As hard as it might be, I think you have to let this fail in whatever way(s) it’s going to fail, and leave it to the people who are experiencing the problem and/or have the authority to solve it.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      Maybe you can offer to be available to escort the makers on only a specific day, or days, of the work week? All other days, you’re not available?

  182. Anon For This*

    Someone, or several people, is spreading some wild rumors internally about our company. The rumors make no sense at all, in fact, they’re so off the wall, they’re not even wrong. Our CEO’s WTF face when one of the rumors comes up again is hilarious, but how on earth does management quash persistent rumors like that? It’s obvious that whoever is spreading the rumors has a very limited understanding of how business, or frankly, capitalism, works. (These rumors are so bizarre, management is flummoxed every time a new one pops up, because wut?)

    I can usually figure out the seed of a rumor, no matter how mistaken, but this time, I have no idea. Fortunately, I’m not management, so I don’t have to worry about it at that level, but apparently my co-workers have some very strange ideas about how the world works.

    1. Student*

      You’re going to have to either learn to let it go, or give them something better to gossip about, apparently.

      If the rumors are that off-the-wall, then addressing them directly is probably giving them more authority and relevance than they deserve. They’ll die down with a bit of time. There’s a reason you don’t see companies responding to every stupid thing that pops up. You raise the profile of things like this by addressing it, and you actually reinforce the dumb claim by repeating it to try to counter it. It’s a weirdo, unfortunate facet of learning, and that’s part of why it’s so hard to convince people of things like that vaccines are safe.

      If they like crazy gossip, spread a rumor that’s beneficial to your company, or against a competitor, or simply wilder and sillier. “You think the CEO is actually an alien from Mars because he has a private jet, where he stores his spaceship? No, that’s silly. He’s a secret government agent after-hours; he needs the private jet to get to his secret missions on time and store his high-tech weapons/gizmo stash. I know because my friend’s brother’s aunt’s boyfriend works at the airport, and he glimpsed them loading the box of magnetic grenades and invisibility cloak into the plane one day.”

  183. Miss H*

    I’m applying for jobs right now, and there is one post that really interests me. However, I only see it on Indeed (per Indeed, posted yesterday) and can’t figure out where it was originally posted by Googling. The company’s website has job postings, but this one isn’t listed.

    Is there some good way to figure out where this was originally posted? Is it possible that it was posted originally on Indeed?

    I hesitate to contact the company directly if they aren’t listing the position on their website, as maybe the post is currently occupied by someone else…

    Thanks in advance!

    1. BeenThere*

      It’s possible they only posted it on Indeed but if they have other postings, it seems like maybe it’s just an expired listing? Indeed is also a job posting aggregator, and I don’t know how often the clean up their listings, if at all.

    2. BRR*

      What information are you hoping to get from finding out where it was originally posted? If it doesn’t post anywhere else why couldn’t you apply through Indeed.

    3. AeroEngineer*

      I have found that Indeed and LinkedIn can sometimes (*cough* often *cough*) contain expired listings (even ones which say they were posted within the last couple of days), so that could be the case. Might as well try to apply through Indeed as fast as you can, but don’t be surprised if the listing is closed already.

      If it isn’t showing up on the company’s website, you might be out of luck to find out when it was actually posted and if it is expired.

    4. Miss H*

      Thank you to everyone who gave advice! I did submit an application through Indeed, but never heard anything back. However, I did look back on the Internet Archive saved versions of their careers page, and it looks like they have had the same few job descriptions for construction laborers (I was going for a finance role) forever.

  184. Don't Know What I'm Doing*

    So I was fired from my first job out of college 3 months ago. I worked there about 9 months. I’m still searching for another job, and I’m living with my parents. I’ve been sticking to full-time jobs related to my major that I’d actually be interested in. I’ve had a few interviews but no offers. Is 3 months a long time for a job search or fairly normal? I’m starting to wonder if I should switch gears and go for part-time and retail work just to have something. I don’t want to be a burden to my parents, but I also feel like I don’t want to waste the privileged position of being able to live with my parents and really spend time searching for jobs that I like. What do you think?

    1. LQ*

      Can you think about “related to my major” more broadly? That’d be the first thing I’d aim for rather than just totally switching gears to part time retail. But what does a broader view of your work lead toward? Would your alumni association have people for your to contact to talk to in an informational interview kind of way (not a can I get a job, but an actual how did you end up in your work, what path, those kinds of things)?

    2. BRR*

      I was fired from my first jobs out of college and it was 6 months between firing and the start of my next job. I feel like that was pretty quick for how often I was interviewing. As long as you’re applying to a steady stream of jobs I don’t think you need to change what you’re applying to yet.

    3. Colette*

      That’s not an unusual amount of time, but given your limited experience, it would be good to see if you can beef up your experience a bit. Is temp work an option in your field? Volunteer work?

    4. librarygal30*

      It took me3 1/2 years after I finished grad school to find a full-time job in my field. I got an on-call job in the field a year post grad school, after I had volunteered in the field as well.

    5. Girl friday*

      I say six-eight weeks for any job asap, and a year to eighteen months for one in your field? Maybe find two part-time jobs asap.

  185. LittleLate*

    There’s an ad for a job that was originally posted back in February. A Masters Degree is required, which I have, but they also want someone with knowledge and a couple years experience in a bunch of different areas (their “minimum requirements” and “preferred qualifications lists” are quite long). I’ve only done a few internships, so I’m really not qualified. This job has been turning up in my searches since February though, so it’s hard to forget about it.

    Would it be crazy to apply and just offer that I could fill in part time/temporarily until they find someone who’s qualified?

    1. nep*

      I say if you’ve got what they are listing as minimum requirements, apply–but without the suggestion of being temp until they find someone qualified. I’ll be interested in responses here–I can’t imagine that working at all. Either you’re a viable candidate and you apply or you’re not and you don’t.

      1. LittleLate*

        My thinking was that since it’s taking so long for them to find someone qualified (the job was posted 6 months ago), maybe they’d want someone to come in and get some work done until they found someone qualified.

        But I guess if they needed someone to do the work temporarily they’d just make a temp job posting for it?

        These types of positions usually aren’t open for more than a month or two, so maybe they just forgot to take the job listing down.

        1. nep*

          Before I got to your last sentence, I was thinking it could be that it’s already filled and ad is still up.

    2. BRR*

      I wouldn’t do that. As it’s a Friday afternoon, I’m having trouble articulating why but that’s not really how things work. I would maybe just apply, what do you have to lose?

      1. LittleLate*

        I was worried that it would look bad to apply for something I’m underqualified for, and that they might remember and disregard me if I apply to anything else later.

        1. nep*

          I agree with this–only if you’re truly underqualified for it…if you are missing some of their absolute minimum requirements. I can see it reflecting poorly on your judgment, rather than making you look enthusiastic about the company, even if the latter is the case.

    3. Buu*

      Just apply for the job properly no temping suggestion ( that’d be the odd thing), you won’t know until you try. You have the Masters and you have the internships. It’s not as if you’re applying with no qualifications or experience. If they have such a long requirements list then they’ll likely not meet them all.
      Just make sure your resume and application letter do you proud. Worse that will happen is a rejection.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      This is a case when networking would come in handy if you could get some intel for this position now or how to make yourself a good candidate for future openings. Short of that, if you apply normally, unless it’s a tiny company, they probably won’t remember you unless you apply 5x or something. Plus, if you truly don’t have enough experience, your resume may not make it to the hiring manager.

    5. LittleLate*

      Thanks to everyone for confirming it was a bad idea and keeping me from doing something to make myself look stupid! I’m desperate, so was not thinking clearly.

  186. Echo*

    Did you have a boss that helped put your work into context, so you didn’t just feel like you are completing tasks and checking off boxes? What did they do that helped you shift your thinking? (Asking as a first-time manager!)

    1. BRR*

      Acknowledging how my work was being used. “That teapot you made was great. I used it to pour tea for the CEO.”

    2. Kerr*

      Letting me know what happened with my work. Did the client love it? Did it help you in that meeting? What was the end result, did you accomplish XYZ like you were hoping?

      (Admin work involves tons of context-less projects flung into the ether, never to be heard from again, so I was thrilled to hear when something was really useful.)
      Even if my work wasn’t a key part, sharing what happened puts it in context.

      Is this mundane, repetitive work like data entry? Try to personalize it – surely there’s a person affected by the work, in the end. Share a story if you have one.

      Talk about how all the steps work together. Where does this task come from, what happens after my work is done? It helps to see the big picture.

      But really, the first one is huge.

  187. Colette*

    I’m widely acknowledged as one of the most knowledgeable people on the 3 teams that form my little area. Sometimes I joke that I sit at my desk and wait for someone to ask me a question, because everyone both inside my area and out does.

    So my boss and my grand boss are both on vacation this week and next, and i saw a job that interests me. It’s in line with my career goals, I’ve heard good things about the team itself, and I’ve been in my area for 3 full years.

    But that means that both of them are coming back to an email that says “so I’ve applied for this job.”

    To make it even more fun, my manager started 3 weeks ago and is just learning.

    In the long term, I know they’ll be fine, but this will not be good news for their first day back.

    1. Kathenus*

      I’m guessing from your description that this might be a position within your organization, so your bosses will find out about it due to the internal application process/guidelines? If that’s the case, I think it’s just an example of how Alison says there’s never a good time for something like this, but it’s a normal part of the business world. If this is an external position, there’s no reason to tell your bosses about applying until/unless you get an offer and need to give notice. Of course some people do keep their bosses in the loop on things like this, I have in one instance but not others, but it’s more common to keep this to yourself especially at this point. Good luck!

      1. Colette*

        Yes, it’s internal, so they have to know. But yeah, they’ll adjust and survive just fine, it’s just not fun to give someone news they won’t want to hear.

  188. nep*

    I was looking at some resume samples online the other day and they are all quite graphics-heavy, with a couple different colours, those graphics for phone, email, social media accounts…How common is this these days? My resume is quite plain. Easy to read and attractive enough, but plain. I know it’s about the content in the end, but I wonder whether this is contributing to the utter lack of response I’m seeing.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Unless you are going into a design related field, I would stay away from a resume with heavy graphics. I don’t need it to look pretty – I just need to see what your experience is and whether or not you have the skills I need for the position.

    2. BRR*

      I would almost guarantee a lack colors and graphics aren’t contributing to a lack of responses. I bet they’re all saying those formats will help you “stand out” but I’ve never known a hiring manager that goes “wow this looks amazing, let’s interview them.”

    3. nep*

      Thanks. You’ve affirmed what I’ve been thinking. At least I know it’s more the content I need to work on, and not graphics and fanciness (not my bag anyway).

    4. AnotherAlison*

      Not graphics, but I am interviewing a candidate next week who had his pic on his resume. Don’t do that! He is a very experienced person in the US, native to the US. I assume he heard that it was a good idea from someone. . .ugh.

    5. wingmaster*

      I only see this in more design fields. For example, my field (fashion/apparel), having interesting layouts, colors, graphics are common resume elements. I think it’s a way to show your Illustrator (Ai)/InDesign skills.

  189. Feeling bummed...*

    Maybe a blessing in disguise but still bummed:

    I applied for a position about five months ago for a position that is an exact match to what I am doing now and within the same industry. After having filled out an online application and applying for the position I never heard back one way or another. This position has been on the company website since I applied five months ago. Today, the position was posted again but since I had applied previously the website does not allow you to reapply. Since I could not reapply via the website I sent an email to HR to let them know that I had applied five months ago and that I was still interested; and to see if their was anyway my application could be refreshed to show my interest. HR got back with me and said they would gladly send my resume over to the hiring manager. As soon as I replied back to thank the HR representative I got a rejection email. Feeling bummed but at least it’s FRIDAY!! Hope you all have a great weekend!!!

  190. AnonHere*

    Ugh I’m so upset–my organization just finally posted the listing for a vacant position on my team (that really needs to be filled) and it’s so underpaid as to be embarrassing. Our professional circle is relatively small and I am so ashamed-by-proxy about this. Our field is an unfairly low paid one and this is known, but this particular incident is appalling, especially considering the responsibilities of and necessary qualifications for the position.

    Sigh.

  191. Dan Tucker*

    Question for Managers,
    I left my last job as a lab manager because our general manager decided he would be a golf playing “executive” while our very busy, 12 person operation sailed rudderless for 3 years and I was not given proxy to make important decisions. Needless to say, after 3 years, there was a mass walkout (much to upper management’s suprise and dismay, despite much prior feedback from yours truly and workers alike…) Of course, he managed to convince upper management (several states away, and not directly observing what was going on) that I had somehow convinced 5 people to find other jobs. Accurately seeing that this was the direction things were going to go, I was the 6th person to find a job and put in my resignation right after everyone else did.
    In that job, I was responsible for 9 employees, and personally ran four complex scientific instruments (the reason I was hired). I did 80 hour weeks, and took full responsibility for making sure everything was checked and completed in a timely manner. I felt like Atlas with the world on his shoulders, even though I delegated many responsibilities and had a team that was engaged and willing to work to get things done. It was truly a “we” experience, and I learned a lot about the “do’s” and “dont’s” of management. The good guys don’t always win in the end, and I know I would not get a good recommendation for a management job from that place despite knowing myself and my team were what made that place function.
    I found a government job in a lab with instruments similar to what I operated in my previous position, but as a technician. During the interview, I understood I would be an operator, which seemed to mesh well with me. 40 hour a week job, less stress, less responsibility–a break from the absolute disaster that happened in the last job.
    But when I get there, I find that the manager is old friends with the lead chemist (whom she promoted to that position), and neither of them really understand these instruments. There had been an old school chemist in charge of the lab, but he has moved up and on and passed the manager position to his best technician, apparently.
    The instruments they have are brand new, apparently purchased because the old ones were trashed (surprise surprise, since no one does the maintenance on the current ones like they are supposed to). I found out the lead chemist friend of hers has no degree, and is very sensitive about it.
    The overall impression I get from the lab is that the skill level is low, and really needs a chemist like myself. The problem is, the manager and the lead chemist do not want me touching ANYTHING. I’m treated like a child, even though I’m over 50 years old (!!! they are slightly older). The lead chemist seems to be intimidated by me, and is desperately looking for some avenue to justify superiority over me.
    I’ve been navigating my way through this mess without offending anyone or touching ANYTHING. Being treated like a child bothers me to no end. I have done an outstanding job (according to someone else who just started working there herself not too long ago…she said I picked up everything very quickly). The bad thing is I’m relegated to menial tasks, and I seem to be stuck.
    Is this an “eject eject!” situation, or what do I do to get past this introductory (?) phase of this job.

      1. Dan Tucker*

        Yes, a lead chemist with no degree in chemistry (or any degree whatsoever), just a shamanistic “feel” for how things work. Apparently they pass their proficiency tests, but there is very little science involved in doing so. They are kind of coasting on the coat tails of the methods the old school chemist implemented. His methods work, but the understanding why isn’t there. I think that is why they don’t want me or the other new person (also a skilled chemist) touching anything. They are afraid it will mess something up and they wont be able to pass proficiency tests anymore because they wont be able to get whatever was “touched” back to a working state. The problem in this is that they do not maintain their equipment, and when the lack of maintenance starts to affect results, they blame the newer technicians for either “touching something” or preparing things wrong. It frustrates the other chemist immeasurably. She shares her frustrations with me every day, and we commiserate, but its just not clear if we should get out of this place or tough it out and wait for these non-scientists to either retire and move on.]

    2. The New Wanderer*

      This sounds analogous to a situation at a company where I interviewed. Different field, but basically senior people without specific knowledge were blocking the newer people with specific knowledge from getting anything done, and pinning any problems on the new people.

      The new people quit en masse after about a year or two. This actually happened twice (two waves of new people hired, then quitting in disgust) before someone high up finally changed the system to reduce the senior people’s authority and it was just starting to improve when I interviewed. One person from the second wave stuck it out and they are now in a good position to make some difference but it is still an uphill slog whenever they have to deal with the senior people.

      Personally, I would be job hunting and take the first better option to come along.

      1. Dan Tucker*

        Thanks for the input. I don’t see upper management stepping in to fix this. The lab just passed its proficiency test with good marks and got a “kudos” from them. They can get the right numbers, which is impressive considering how little they understand about what they are doing or the instruments they are working with. But when they have problems, it all falls on us “juniors” not doing things right. We get to be the scapegoats for their lack of understanding. I think you are right, it is probably an eject situation, if I ever hope to get to a job where I’m actually treated like a professional. So unfortunate, but hey, that’s the reality.

  192. Lissa*

    I was underemployed/not getting enough hours for a long time. Now I’m contract, working for three different organizations and am having a hard time not grabbing every project I can and completely overworking myself. It’s really a strange mindset shift, my last jobs I was never any good at, not really, but I finally found something I do well, in a field with a relatively small number of people, which means I can work a lot more if I want to. There’s this ego trip of people coming to ME to want me to do work for them and I have an extremely hard time saying no. Part of it’s that the work I do is kind of seasonal and I’m always worried it’ll dry up so I want to take as much as I can when it’s available, and part of it’s just the novelty of having the option. But I can already look at my September and wonder if I’ve made some bad decisions on how much I’ll be working.

  193. Alissa*

    I recently interviewed for a university student affairs job where I would basically be helping high school students in low-income communities learn and apply for college, among other things. I currently work as a an independent college counselor and this new job would come with more responsibility including being in charge of 5 university student workers and working at multiple schools. In the job posting the range was $23 to $45. I thought I could ask for about $30 an hr. I currently make about $28.

    However, in the interview I learned 2 things. They want to offer $23.40 and it’s a 10 month contract position meaning I would be out of 2 months pay.

    I’ll be hearing back from them this week. If offered the job would it be ridiculous for me to ask for like $32 knowing they will negotiate down? I would very much like this job but I can’t possibly take such a large pay cut and a loss in 2 months wages.

    What do you guys think?

    3. Ender*

      They advertised a range of 23 – 45 and then in the interview they told you it was 23 dollars and 45 cents? That’s awful – what a waste of your time!

      Definitely tell them you can’t move for less than 32 (or whatever). And while you’re at it tell them that the original posting was wrong and they should be more careful!

    5. The New Wanderer*

      At the rate they want to offer, you’d be taking a $14k pay cut! It looks like you’d need to make $33-34/hr just to match what you’re currently making, assuming the pay covers 44 weeks (10 mos) instead of 52.

      Personally, I would ask for $40/hr given that the job is a step up and that is well within the range from the posting. I would also accept no less than $35/hr (otherwise you’re losing money). One tactic for negotiating salary is to support your ask with details about why your skills are worth it. You have X years experience in Y and Z, mentoring, management, counseling, or whatever best makes your case that you belong squarely in the upper half of the pay range. Think of their starting offer of $23.40 as what they would offer someone with zero experience – you deserve more.

  194. De Minimis*

    Started my new job this week!

    So far so good, I wish the benefits were better but that’s my only complaint so far. We relocated, and my total commute time per day is maybe 40-45 minutes, which is amazing for me—previously it was at least a couple of hours a day.

    And I’m part of a larger accounting team, and only do accounting. No HR, no office admin duties, no “whatever other people don’t want to do….” My previous job had really gotten intolerable in that respect.

    I did have my first solo work assignment today, and we’ll see what happens, but after initial panic I think it went okay. Even if it didn’t, I’ll eventually figure it out.

  195. Nacho*

    I’m pissed off at my coworker right now. Last week he asked to switch with me for today saying something about not wanting to work so many days in a row. I said yes figuring I’d do him a favor, but this morning it turns out he came in today to work OT anyways, and I’m just wasting my Friday for no reason.

  196. Student*

    Had a department meeting yesterday – big boss and all his reports, for a kind of quarterly update.

    Big boss introduces all the new people in the department. A couple of these new folks weren’t able to make the meeting, including one woman I’ll call Alex. Alex, short for Alexandra, has been at our company for a couple years, but she just got moved into our department recently. She goes by Alex professionally and socially. Also, our business is tremendously male-dominated; we are about 10% of the department’s professional (vs support) staff.

    When big boss introduced Alex, one of the folks (we’ll call him Joker) in my department chimed in with “Oh, I thought Alex was a dude. That’s confusing. Can you refer to her as Alexandra from now on? Thanks.” Everyone in the department except me had a big laugh about it. The big boss laughed. The big boss made jokes about people’s names for the rest of the meeting. The big boss also started referring to Alex as Alexandra, instead of Alex, throughout the rest of the meeting.

    I thought this was a pretty hugely asshole move. I was unhappy with Joker, hugely disappointed in Boss, and sad for the rest of my department laughing at this woman’s (admittedly gender-neutral) preferred name. It’s not so much the accidental mis-gendering that upsets me – that is a not-entirely-unreasonable mistake that one can make in this situation. It’s the laugh response, it’s the renaming, it’s continuing the “joke” through the meeting, and especially the boss’s involvement. Yeah, mis-gendering somebody is embarrassing, but the right thing to do about that is not to joke about it when it happens. It’s also wrong to ask somebody to go by a different name than they prefer to suite your gender sensibilities (and this one is a common name for both genders, even more so than the example I’ve picked).

    It’s super wrong to laugh at a new person in the group, especially behind their back – it sets a really lousy, unwelcoming tone from the boss and the group. If I were Alex, I’d be seriously rethinking my move into this group. I’m not Alex, and I found it deeply off-putting and disappointing to see anybody, especially a new person, treated that way. I would’ve been mortified if I was treated this way when I joined up.

    I ended up sending a note to the boss about it, asking him to consider it from the perspective of the new person, trying to point out that it likely wasn’t intended so, but it came off as pretty mean and unwelcoming when it comes from the boss. I left off the gender issue to try not to get him super-defensive about the incident. Since I have a good working relationship with Alex, I tipped her off about the incident, but not in deep specifics – told her somebody had cracked a joke about her name vs gender so she knows there’s some assholes here, but didn’t tell her about the whole room laughing or the boss joining the joke because I felt that would be too embarrassing without being helpful/actionable.

    Am I over-reacting? Under-reacting? Crazy? Not crazy? I was honestly stunned everyone started laughing.

    2. BRR*

      You’re awesome! Like what idiot can’t grasp the concept of Alex being a woman and shame on everyone for laughing.

    3. Dan Tucker*

      On behalf of mature men, permit me to apologize for the affronts of my gender. We are not all idiots like the ones you describe here. I would say confront the manager privately, but based on the maturity level you have presented, I’d say that confrontation would not be well received. Having worked in female dominated organizations, I can say there is a better
      place for you somewhere else where respect is enforced.

    4. AeroEngineer*

      Ewwwww. I would have been pretty pissed after that, what an asshole and rude move from your boss and coworker.

      I have a gender neutral name (my parents chose it actually for that reason), and if people started calling me something else, I would be very annoyed, and would lose a lot of respect for those people, particularly since the reasoning is gender related. Gender related jokes and stuff like that is actually one of the bigger reasons why I am trying to find a new job (there are many other reasons though, but this broke the camel’s back for sure).

      Good on you for calling your boss out on it! I would have informed her that the boss joined in, in the case that he actually calls her Alexandria face to face, as he seemed to take the joke way to the next level when he could have just shut it down.

  197. Friday Vent*

    In my notice period (3 weeks). Instead of focusing on transitioning work and finishing out things, boss just keeps assigning new things to me so she doesn’t have to do the work after I leave. Gotta just keep reminding myself I’m getting out soon.

    1. Buu*

      Euch, well it’s on them if you don’t have time to finish. Just write up a good hand over email when you leave.

    1. wingmaster*

      I do some custom apparel and sewing alterations on the side. I also used to work at a few fashion shows as a dresser. Just dressing your assigned model for 3-4 outfits was easy money for me.

  199. Forking Great Username*

    I GOT A JOB OFFER THIS WEEK! Two job offers, actually! Neither was my ideal – I’ve been hoping to find a permanent teaching position at a public high school. One of my offers was at a charter school, the other one was a temporary one year job at a public school. I ended up picking the charter – shorter commute, fewer lesson plans to write for each day, and I’ll have my own classroom versus working off a cart in a different room each hour.

    But I am so excited! I just graduated in April, so I’m thrilled to already have my own classroom. I still hope to end up at a public school eventually, but it seems that my top picks all want teachers with experience – so this will be a good way to get that experience. I’m itching to go in on Monday and get to see my classroom and get details on the curriculum so I can start planning!

    3. Hmmmmm*

      Congrats! :) A friend of mine was a teacher and his experiences ended up not so great at a public school, so you never know what you’ll end up enjoying!

  200. ILikePeople*

    Hey all! Would love some support on this topic :)

    I’ve been applying to remote customer support positions online. I’m getting some interviews, and I’m really excited! My background is in lower level academia, but I really want to work remotely, and I like people working with people (and yes I have customer service experience, I’m aware how bad they get!). If I get my coding up to snuff, some of these positions actually pay pretty well!

    But I feel like others won’t be as happy for me because I could “do more”, if that makes sense. Any advice (and support!) for getting over the elitism in my head and that others might have?

    1. Someone Else*

      I don’t know if this helps, but if your remote work support involves coding, I’m assuming it’s somewhat tech support ish? Not just customer support in a more general sense? If so, people being judgey at you are probably just wrong? I moved into a software support role and in under three years turned into the support manager, and literally doubled my income over what I’d been making before I started that trajectory. Obviously, no guarantee you’d have the same experience, but most of the support people move up in my company, and that’s my frame of reference. It’s definitely a stepping stone. I’m guessing some of what you’re anticipating is people assuming you’re in a call center and working off a script? Not all remote support roles are like that. So if you’re getting people looking down upon your role, probably all you need to do is reframe it so it’s clearer it’s a strong professional role you’re excited about.

      1. ILikePeople*

        Your career trajectory is my goal! It’s great to hear it’s achievable. And you are totally correct, it is a better career money wise than I currently have – despite being less “worthwhile” (as many view academia, I personally don’t have that elitism).

        Some of the positions are more technical than others… But they do all seem to have the trajectory to move beyond and into the company. I think you’re right that I can focus on that to make it clear this is actually a career choice.

        If I may ask for more advice… Do you think it is worth waiting for a more tech support role versus customer support? I was going to just take whatever I get, since it’s a career change and I have no professional coding experience – just classes and self taught. But I do want to have that role eventually. Is it hard to transition over, or important to start in one spot?

        1. Someone Else*

          Hmmm. I’m not sure I can definitively answer your newest question. Where I’ve work (and similar companies) we don’t have any separation between “customer support” and “tech support”. Our offers fall into the general realm of technical stuff…so any support we do could be reasonably described as tech support. We do have some support specialists who have more of a technical background than others. So we’re either hiring you because you know the base technologies on which our stuff is built/dependent, and just teaching your the specifics of our business OR we’re hiring you because you already know a lot about our business and expect you to learn/pick up/ eventually get better at the technical aspects, where basically…you’re learning the tech by necessity because if you don’t understand it, you can’t help with our stuff? But people sometimes definitely start off where their only experience with certain technologies is as related to VerySpecificWorkThing and thus super limited.
          Other companies may not have that type of mix in the people they hire. We definitely do have entry level roles though where it’s obvious someone’s going to be learning and growing into it no matter what.
          So I guess, if your goal is to be more of a coder or an engineer and you want to use support as a gateway to that, A: yes that’s possible, and B: make sure you’re applying for support roles in orgs whose “supporting” will inherently have a technical component. It’s the meat of the role that’ll tell you if it’s a good stepping stone for you, more than whether the company chooses to call it “tech support” or “customer support”.

    2. Whatever Works*

      I don’t know if it helps, but my job could accurately be called ‘tech support’ and ‘customer service’ (which it sounds like yours could too) and I just call it tech support when I’m talking to someone I think will be snooty about it. For some reason that gets a totally different response!

  201. Dawn*

    Hi there! Hope everyone is having a great weekend so far! This is my first time commenting, so please bear with me. My question is in regards to being a salaried employee and vacation.

    I got this new job in December being paid $16 an hour as a full-time, 40 hour a week, hourly warehouse worker. However, within a month of being there, the other guy in the warehouse abruptly quit without notice. This meant I was working overtime nearly every week to keep up with the shipments, and working on another inventory project as well.

    By the time March came around, I’d been getting paid overtime consistently, usually about 45-47 hours instead of 40. My boss offered to make me salaried, which meant I’d have to work a minimum of 50 hours every week, but I’d get a consistent paycheck and if I only worked 48.5 or 49, I’d still get paid like I had worked the full 50. I agreed, as it seemed like it’d be good for both of us. Since that time, I have only missed my required hours once, and even then it was 49.6…I’ve also had a few weeks where I worked over 50, but obviously still only got paid for the 50 we agreed upon. Everything was fine until I took a 3 day vacation earlier this month.

    I had assumed (perhaps foolishly) that since I was salaried and didn’t get paid overtime anymore, that I’d also not be docked pay for the very rare occasion I took off. Unfortunately, when I got my next paycheck, I saw I’d only been paid for the 20 hours I put in on Monday and Tuesday combined. When I approached my employer about this, they said they don’t offer PTO or paid vacation time, so I would only be paid for the hours I actually worked.

    I’m not sure how I feel about this, honestly. I’m 35, and I’ve worked salaried positions similar to this ever since I was 17. Every other employer who has made me salary has either offered PTO, sick/personal days, or some minimal vacation time even if they didn’t offer any additional health insurance or benefits (this job also has no benefits/insurance). Is this actually typical of modern salaried positions, and I’ve just been fortunate enough prior to this to have employers who gave personal days when they don’t have to?

    1. WG*

      I’m not a lawyer or expert, but I find it odd your employer switched you to salary based on hours worked. I think that’s supposed to be based on job responsibilities. An employer can have a job paid salaried even if it classifies as non-exempt from overtime, but then they still meed to pay time-and-a-half for hours worked over 40 in a week.

      If your job us still the same tasks as before your coworker left, you just have more of that same work to do, and the job was non-exempt before, I would think it still needs to be the same.

      Not sure if it’s federal or state regulations, but there may be restrictions on docking pay within a payperiod for salaried employees. You want want to check with your state department of labor.

      1. Dawn*

        I do have slightly different responsibilities than when I first started, but I offered to learn them and take those on so my boss didn’t have to rush in at 11am everyday. So instead of just doing the receiving, packing, and shipping, I also do the ordering for the items we need to fulfill orders each day. But I was doing that before being made salary.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It makes sense to me that you wouldn’t get paid for days when you don’t work at all. In my experience, if you are salaried, you won’t get docked if you leave early/come in late.

      However, it is definitely troubling to me that they don’t offer any sort of PTO or benefits. Also, the idea that you’re expected to work 50 hours a week every week on salary doesn’t sit well with me. I agree with WG that you should check with your state department of labor to make sure all of this is aboveboard.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I don’t think this sounds legit either, but I’ve never worked a salaried job that a) required more than 40 hours, and b) didn’t come with some kind of compensation package that included paid time off and benefits. I also agree that the change from hourly to salary appeared to be based on hours, not duty changes. I’d definitely question it if you are being paid less on salary for 50 hr weeks than your hourly + OT for 47 hr weeks.

  202. WG*

    I’m probably too late, but has anyone switched employers after a long time with the same employer? For a myriad of reasons related to changes with my current employer, I’m considering leaving. My I’ve been there for 30 years and the thought of starting over is scary. Thoughts, experiences, or aspects to consider with such a move would be welcome.

    1. Dawn*

      Wow, 30 years is a long time! Congratulations on staying. The longest I was ever with the same job was 11 years, and like yourself I found myself needing to find a new one when he started to change in behavior. I have found it easier to switch jobs if you go into a related field/the same one, rather than something entirely new.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Did you change positions throughout those 30 years? From an interviewer standpoint, I would want to know what made you decide to leave after 30 years, so you’re going to need to have a well prepared answer for that.

      I’d write out a list of what you like and what you don’t like about where you are currently so you know what to look for in a new company.

      1. WG*

        Yes, I did change position and move up through the years. Good point about knowing how to answer the question about leaving. I’ve actually had a couple of interviews where that was asked and I talked about how I had lots of great opportunities where I am (which is true) but that at this point in my career it could be a good time for new challenges and learning while I still have many years until retirement.

    3. T*

      I’m too new into my career to have this happen but over the past year, my work team has hired two people who had about 20 years at their previous organization. Basically, they were happy with the work they were doing for a lot of years but then the culture changed at the companies and they were no longer happy, which seems pretty reasonable. One person stayed within the same field when they joined us and the other one changed fields. Both are really happy with their decision because the culture is a better fit with some new challenges, but it is hard to have mastered your job then move to a new job and feel like you are flailing.

  203. T*

    Thoughts on dress codes in a mixed department office (different managers, different rules)? This means some people are more casual than others even if their roles are equivalent. I don’t manage anyone but my boss came to me because a different manager with a different dress code for his people came to her to request that her inspectors wear collared shirts to meetings and take off their hats. She wanted to know what I thought. These guys always wear clean t-shirts, jeans and ball caps and about 80% of the people at these meetings wear the equivalent or less (holes in shirts, mud on pants, etc). I think what they wear is fine but thought we could get them some company branded shirts (tshirts, polos, whatever they wanted) that they could wear to the meetings to make sure they had something clean if they were on a construction site just prior to these meetings. But because we don’t have a singular dress code and it is up to individual managers, it feels like you have to check in with your boss vs just look around to match what other people are wearing.

  204. Isabel Kunkle*

    So I’m applying for a job. The description said to include a cover letter and two responses to essay topic. The application software didn’t give me the option to attach same–instead, it took me to four other questions, and when I’d completed those and hit “next,” said I’d applied.

    What should I do here?

  205. Rumpled Writer*

    I’m a long-time reader, first time commenter. I work at a non-profit and have been an interim director of a division for the past year +. The interim position came about because of my immediate boss retiring and other transitions within the organization. We now have a new Exec Director, who is still learning but is entering the first making-changes phase of their tenure. Here’s the thing. It’s generally agreed that I’ve done well at being Interim Director despite trying circumstances, but it’s also become clear that the powers-that-be (not just new ED but others the organization works with) want someone new, with a flashier degree than I have, to be the permanent director. I’m not even sure I want the permanent director position given that a whole bunch of new stuff is being dumped into it, but it’s still hard not have slightly hurt feelings about it. Meanwhile, my (small) division already lost a person this spring, and I was starting to worry about how we were going to cover everything once things picked up again post-summer. A few weeks ago, I learned that the new ED had offered my one remaining non-admin employee a promotion/reassignment to a different division to cover for someone on medical leave. Neither ED nor employee (who was a friend before she was a colleague) let me know about this ahead of time–it was presented to me as a done deal. I have been furious ever since. I felt like ED owed me a heads up given that I was the supervisor and employee owed me a heads up because we were friends. The situation would suck no matter what–our busy period is about to start and I have no staff beyond a shared admin–but feeling blindsided by it is making everything worse. I’m having a hard time getting over it. I’m being asked to run the division with a cobbled together temporary staff (if one can even be found) at the same time as they’re searching for my replacement (because the job is so important that only someone from the outside with a fancier degree can be trusted with it). What’s become clear to me is that I can’t go through all of this and then feel like I’m being demoted back to Associate Director. Basically, I know too much. It’s a small organization, so there’s not a lot of room to move me laterally, which is what I would want. I’ve thought about quitting more in the past few weeks than I ever have before. I wonder if this often happens to people in long interim positions. Mostly, at the moment, I’m feeling very put upon and unmotivated, and I don’t know if I have any options beyond looking for a new job. Does anyone have any strategies for someone in my position? I’d been generally pleased with new ED up to this point, and it’s not that I don’t understand the reason for the decision, but I feel like it was all handled very badly. I’m trying hard to resist the urge to stomp off and quit and leave them really stranded, but I think about it every day.

  206. Ichiba*

    I am about to start a job wherein I can either keep my personal cell phone and the company reimburses me for the bill, or I can get a new number and device from them directly, or some other 3rd option that I’m not super clear on. What is everyone’s opinion on having two phones (one for work plus the one i have now) vs one?

    1. WG*

      Things to consider with using your own phone is how much access/control your company will have to it. I’ve heard some companies have you install an app that allows them to wipe the phone when you leave their employment. I would assume there could be apps that could track personal aspects of the phone as well as business stuff.

      Also, does your phone have data limits with overage charges? Will your employer reimburse for overage charges or just standard cost? How is it determined that the overage was related to business use and not personal?

    2. Stephanie*

      I’d see what the culture in your office is. In mine, we all have two phones. I prefer that because if we lose our phones, the company wipes it. I also just assume nothing on the work phone is private, so like if I wanted to job hunt (or even just talk about personal things), I couldn’t do really do that on the work phone.

    3. Shannon*

      Personally, I would get the company cell. It can be an annoyance to carry two phones, but it’s not uncommon. I don’t like the idea of my job having access to my personal stuff. Plus, if you don’t have to be on call/available after hours you can shut that phone off without blocking access to your own stuff.

    4. NotReallyKarenWalker*

      From experience – get the second phone, and keep it separate from your personal.

      I initially did that, then was encouraged to blend my personal and business into one device. I absolutely regret doing that, even considering the financial savings. That led to me being *always* accessible because my personal device was also my business device, whereas previously I was able to set boundaries. Additionally, now that they’ve scaled back spending and opted to no longer cover my plan, it’s turned into a push/pull of “We expect you to be as accessible as we’ve gotten used to” versus me saying, “This is my personal device and I pay for the data, and I removed my email account because I don’t want company email coming in at 1AM anymore and I need some work/life separation”.

  207. NotReallyKarenWalker*

    Acknowledging an acknowledgment?

    Forgive me please if this has been answered: I searched the site but wasn’t quite sure of what I was looking for.

    I just received something very rare: A personalized, warm and polite acknowledgment from a hiring manager that they had received my application and were just beginning the process.

    Should I reply and thank them for letting me know, or is that unneeded inbox clutter for them? I’m so dumbfounded by receiving a personal letter so quickly that I’m not sure what to do.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Wow, that is unusual and what a good question! It feels strange to ignore a note like that, but an acknowledgement does seem like more inbox clutter. I’d probably send something back since it was so unusual.

  208. Thankful for AAM*

    I feel so disgusted and need to rant and cannot wait for this Friday. Coworkers, actually a supervisor in another department and her supervisor (who is also the head of that department) are reviewing resumes for an open position. They are in an open office area. They are laughing and going around showing a resume to other coworkers. I am just appalled. They are mocking a person mercilessly.

  209. Thankful for AAM*

    I feel so disgusted and need to rant and cannot wait for this Friday. Coworkers, actually a supervisor in another department and her supervisor (who is also the head of that department) are reviewing resumes for an open position. They are in an open office area. They are laughing and going around showing a resume to other coworkers. I am just appalled. They are mocking a person mercilessly.

Comments are closed.