open thread – August 24-25, 2018

by Alison Green on August 24, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. AnonyAnony*

    Help! I’m a final candidate for two different positions, with two different employers. They have both indicated I’ll most likely receive an offer soon (though I know it’s still possible I won’t receive an offer), but they are still completing internal steps before they can officially offer. One of the positions will most likely pay more, but I like the work environment better at the other.

    If I receive an offer from the place that pays more first, how best should I handle nudging the other place? We haven’t really talked salary and benefits yet, as I was waiting for the offer stage to do that. Is there a tactful way to contact them to ask about those details so that I can compare both places before accepting or declining the first offer? I do need a certain level of income and will have to turn down the second place if their salary is too low, even though I’d prefer to work at their company.

    2. Ali G*

      If you get the higher paying offer before hearing anything from the other place, reach out to them and ask them if they have any updates on their process. You can even mention you have received another offer, but are still very interested in their opportunity too. At that point they know they will either have to step on the gas, or if they are meh on you, then you will know and can take the other offer. I’m not sure there is a way to broach salary at the second place if they haven’t extended an offer, unfortunately.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Just from personal experience – I had competing offers and one company I definitely preferred. They’d indicated an offer was likely, so once I got the call from place A, I let place B know that I needed some news soon, because I was excited about working there but had to give place A an answer. It worked pretty well; I was able to put off A for a few days (wanted a few questions answered in writing anyway) and place B couldn’t increase my salary much but gave me a signing bonus and better benefits.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I think this is easier when Company A > Company B > What you have now, and so if you have an offer from B and believe an offer is coming from A, then you can perhaps just be blunt–you would go for A if they can get the formal offer together before the weekend, but you need to eat and can’t wait three weeks while they ponder waiting for Veep Doug to get back and give his input.

    4. AmeriCorps Alum*

      Oh yikes. I feel like you could have asked the company with the better work environment during the interview process about their salary range, since you have reason to believe it might be too low for you to even consider. I’m afraid that contacting them now is going to be seen as bothersome. Ideally, they will both contact you on the same day and you can tell them something like, “I’m really excited about your work environment and want to say yes, but I have to tell you I also have another job offer that pays more. Is there anything you can do?” Then you can see if they can meet your needs at all, or not. If you don’t hear from them around the same time, I don’t think you can assume you’re going to get an offer from the other place too (depends on why you believe you’re going to get an offer, I guess). Whoever offers first, you have to decide, if this is my only offer, will I want it, or will I keep looking and interviewing elsewhere?

    5. stitchinthyme*

      I just got a similar request for advice from a friend the other day. He’s been unemployed for a few months, and so is kind of desperate to find a job. He got an offer from Company A and is supposed to start this coming Monday; he had asked them at the time if he could push his start date back and start in a couple weeks and they said yes, but he dropped the ball on following up — they told him to change the date on the offer letter before signing and sending it back, but for some reason (he didn’t say why), he didn’t do that so his start date is supposed to be Monday.

      Meanwhile, he is also talking to a second company (Company B) that he likes better, but they couldn’t interview him for another week or two, so he wanted my advice on what to do. I told him that his options were basically:

      1. Turn down Company A and hope the other one pans out.
      2. Contact Company A and say something like, “I had asked previously if I could push my start date back to [date], and I’m wondering if I could still do that. I just moved recently and need some extra time to unpack and settle in, although of course if that’s not possible I’ll report in on Monday as planned.” (It’s true; he did just move recently.) If they say no, report in on Monday and give up on Company B.
      3. Start at Company A on Monday and stop talking to Company B.
      4. Start at Company A and continue talking to Company B.

      Of those options, #1 is a gamble; #2 is probably the safest bet, and #4 is a jerk move that will burn bridges at Company A. #2 would as well if Company B gives him an offer and he backs out of Company A after they agreed to push back his start date, but at least he wouldn’t have started yet at that point.

      Anyway, he wrote back after I sent him my answer to tell me that he’s interviewing at Company B today. I cautioned him that he may still have a tough decision to make, because although I have had times where I’ve had an interview and gotten an offer the same day, that isn’t always the case — some companies move glacially slow when it comes to hiring. If I were him, I’d have asked Company A to push back my start date just to give me some padding — one business day is cutting it awfully close, in my opinion!

      I’ll see him tonight, so I guess I’ll find out what happened and what he’s going to do in a few hours.

      1. Faith*

        I would argue that all options other than 3 will burn bridges at Company A. He already signed the offer and sent it back. He is now acting in bad faith by talking to someone else. Whether or not it might work out for the best for him is still uncertain, but there is no way to bow out of accepting this offer gracefully.

        1. stitchinthyme*

          Option 2 would probably not do any harm IF he doesn’t get the offer from Company B. I don’t think that asking for extra time before the start date would do any harm since he *does* have a legitimate reason for it (recent move). But yeah, if he doesn’t end up at Company A, the bridge would likely be burned. But I think the worst option would be to start there and then leave.

          I do doubt it would harm his career in any real way, because the tech industry in my area is big, and it’s unlikely that there’s enough of a network that he could get blacklisted. But even so, ethically it would be a crappy thing to do, and I did tell him that.

      2. Hazelthyme*

        I’m going to agree that anything other than #3 is unethical and unprofessional. Asking for a few days to consider an offer before you accept (and trying to get an update from your preferred employer in the meantime)? Fine. Asking to delay your start date by a week? Usually fine, though some employers may push back if they really need you on board before a certain event or have orientations that only start once a month. But continuing to interview once you’ve accepted an offer? Not cool.

        Yes, it’s even worse to leave after you’ve started than to accept an offer and then back out before your start date, but both are pretty bad IMO. A decent employer will cut their other finalists loose once you accept their offer, and may have to restart the whole search again. They may also have rearranged schedules, requested equipment or system access, etc. in anticipation of your start date. In short, there’s a significant cost to the employer if you do this, and most won’t look kindly on this behavior.

        You say the industry is big enough that you don’t think your friend will face any long-term repercussions from reneging on Company A’s offer, but I wouldn’t be so sure. At a minimum, this burns a bridge at Company A, and it will likely be a long time before they’ll consider another application from him. Beyond that, people move around, and it’s more common than you’d think that when he applies for the next job at Company C in a few years, someone on the search committee who used to work at Company A will remember him as the guy who bailed a week before his start date, and he can kiss that interview goodbye.

        1. stitchinthyme*

          Good points all. I have no idea what he’ll end up doing, but I should have an update tonight when I see him.

    6. Minocho*

      I had this happen during my last job search.

      There were two good jobs that were looking very promising. One had a good commute, was in a steady sector of the economy, looked to be a great technical environment, liked management, and would move my career down a data management path.

      The other was a long commute, in a boom and bust sector of the economy, looked to be a great technical environment, liked management, and would move my career down a software development path.

      Got the short commute offer, for waaaaay more than I ever expected…but the third interview there made the job suddenly very scary – it looked like rather than data management, it would be client management. Look, I’ve got pretty crummy emotional intelligence. There’s a _reason_ I’m in software development.

      So I asked the offering company for 72 hours (you could probably ask for a bit more, but much more than a week seems a lot), then went to the other company and let them know I had just received an offer, and I had 72 hours to make a decision.

      I got the second offer. It was less than the first, BUT I thought it was a job I had a chance to excel at. Took the opportunity.

      You can’t know if you’ll get the preferred offer. You’ll have to analyze how much preferred it is – do you risk alienating the other company for the preferred job? – so it’ll be about how disparate the offers are, how disparate the jobs are, and how much risk you can take in the moment.

      Good luck!

  2. afiendishthingy*

    I got a job offer!

    But like, red-flaggy quickly. Literally less than 24 hours between finding the job posting, sending in my resume, talking on the phone with the executive director for 12 minutes, meeting in person with an HR person for like 20 minutes, and getting a contingent offer.

    It’s an education job and the school year starts next week, so that explains part of the haste. I also get the sense the executive director’s gut makes a lot of hiring decisions.

    There was a lot I really liked though! Small caseload, very decent pay & benefits. What I saw of the school, I really liked. The HR person seemed to really love the organization and its mission.

    I did what I wasn’t supposed to do and told them I’m waiting to hear back from another company, which is true but not tactful. They were totally understanding, said we want people who are going to stay, so obviously you should take time to look over the offer and know what you’re getting into.

    Question 1: I want to let the other company I’m waiting to hear from know that I have another offer and limited time to consider it. But what do I say if I’m not sure I’d turn down company A’s offer if company B also offers me a job? I was originally thinking that company B would be my first choice, but other than company A’s lightning round interviewing, I really did like them. I’d feel like an ass being like “I need an answer really soon” and then getting an offer and being like “Nah thanks for rushing for me but no thanks.”

    Question 2: Am I crazy for even considering an offer from an organization that handles hiring this way? Also, how many questions can I ask them while I consider the offer? I thought of about 50 on the drive home, which mostly boil down to “Tell me EXACTLY what the day-to-day of this job actually is?” Can I ask to talk to other people in the same or similar role?

    Additional context: I am unemployed and need a paycheck yesterday.

    Thanks & sorry for the length.

    1. Paige*

      If the school year starts next week, it’s not crazy that they’d be monitoring the incoming applications that closely. It can be a good thing to know they can cut through bureaucratic red tape pretty quickly when they need to. They’re rushing for them, not you. If that’s your only qualm, I wouldn’t worry too much about it, short of possibly inquiring as to why the position opened up so soon before the school year (like, has it been open and they’ve just not found the right person yet, or did someone announce they were leaving a couple of weeks ago and leave them short-handed, etc.).

    2. I'll think of a clever name later...maybe.*

      I once interviewed for a position at a big insurance firm. Interview was about 25 minutes long. I was less than 1/2 mile away from the interview, on the phone with my mom, when I got a call that I’d gotten the job. I thought “Hmmmm, that was fast. Should I be worried?” Best job I ever had. I still think about it. :) I only left to stay home with my daughter when she was born.

        1. coffeeeeee*

          i once had an interview that was about 20 min long. On my way back to work from the interview I got an offer for the job. I took it and stayed with them for 9 years! Best job of my life!

      2. EmKay*

        This has happened to me twice!

        Interview so short that I was doubting whether it went well or not, then getting a call while I’m on my way home from the interview to tell me I got the job. I stayed at the first place for years, and am at the second one now :)

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      School starts next week – not unusual to fast-track a desirable hire. Our science department made two hires the week before school started and one went from interview, through HR to the classroom in less than a week. We were in a hurry, there weren’t other interviews, and HR wasn’t backed up with processing hundreds of other candidates. I encourage you not to let this process alone sway you. Good luck!

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Thank you! I’ve been unsuccessfully job hunting for a few months and a lot about this job really sounds good, so I’m glad to hear it’s not unusual for hiring to be done so quickly at the end of the summer!

      2. Julianne (also a teacher)*

        Just wanted to chime in with my agreement here. School hiring moves at lightning speed this close to the beginning of classes, because it’s so crucial to be fully staffed from Day 1. Don’t let the timeline worry you.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          If I were a third-party to this hiring (e.g. I worked at this school, and my life would be miles easier if the position were filled with a competent person before the start of the term), and the interviewer was all “We found someone qualified, they seem like a very good fit, but we don’t want to appear over-eager so we’re going to slow roll each step….” then I would be tearing my hair out. You have a good fit for the gaping hole! Just hire them already! Now! I’ll call if you won’t!

          Like people who are so determined to slow-play their romantic interest in someone that that person assumes they aren’t interested at all, and healthily moves on to someone willing to plan dates with them. (On TV shows I usually respond to ongoing UST with “Clearly neither of you is all that interested in the other, or you would just go get a hamburger together like normal people. So let’s move on to more interesting plots.” And the show is all “But their elbows almost brush next week!!!!!!”)

          1. Gumby*

            But they *can’t* go get a hamburger because then SD-6 will know that they know each other!!! People will die!

            (Sorry, does that date me a teeny bit?)

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              I was thinking of Nikita (as soon as the USTers wind up on the same side of a shooting war, they start trying to make a relationship work despite each having a 747 of baggage) vs Castle (yeah, we’re both single, we’re into each other… but what if we tried and it didn’t work? best stick to the lingering gaze and the occasional “You know, this week there was a sudden murder!” (this is treated as a surprise) “And… it makes you think. Like, things can happen, and if you never tried…. but no, what if we got a hamburger and it was awkward? best not risk it…”)

    4. Me (I think)*

      My partner has been in secondary education for 30+ years. It’s very common for a principal or director to rely on their gut instincts when hiring. (It’s also very common for that to not work out so well….)

      I’m not an HR professional by any means, but in your position I think I would contact Company B exactly once, and say that I’ve received another offer but am still interested in Co. B, and do they have any update on the timeline? That gives them all the information and subtext that they need, and it doesn’t commit me to accepting any offer from Co. B because I’m not the one rushing them.

      Good luck.

    6. Is pumpkin a vegetable?*

      On the other side of things, our company’s owner and I (HR), interviewed an applicant, and we both knew in a 20 minute interview that he would knock it out of the park, and he has. We actually called him on his way home and offered him the job. I might add, we’ve never done it this way before, he was just that good. He’s been here for about a year, and is everything we thought he would be, and more! If everything else seems good, I wouldn’t let the speed of it turn you off.

      1. BenAdminGeek*

        Exactly. I’ve had similar reactions to stellar candidates. Afiendishthingy, I wouldn’t worry too much about timing, especially with school starting.

    7. MissGirl*

      Don’t feel bad about rushing Company B and possibly turning them down. You really can’t say for sure you’ll take something until you have an offer in hand.

    8. AeroEngineer*

      My current job was like that. Had a phone call two hours later giving me an offer. Any red flags or issues which appeared were 100% unrelated.

      I can imagine if they want you to start next week, they would like to have had the hiring done last week, so I would definitely say it is not a red flag in itself.

    9. Sally*

      I recently went through a job search, and I start my new job Monday! I had so many questions between interviews and after I got the offer, so I recommend asking ALL of your questions. Presumably you want to be in this job for at least a school year, so it makes sense to find out exactly what the job requires.

      1. Sally*

        And thank you to Alison SO MUCH for her interviewing materials. I studied them, and I prepared, and I had great interviews, even though my memory is not great, because I had done the preparation. I can’t recommend it enough.

    10. stitchinthyme*

      My husband had a super-quick job offer once, and it was a total nightmare. He interviewed on a Thursday, and not only did he get an offer that very day, but they wanted him to start the next day — yes, on a Friday. Because he really needed a job, he accepted…and of course when he went in, he found that the nice guy who’d interviewed him, and who he was looking forward to working with, was leaving and that Friday was his last day — my husband was his replacement and had to learn everything about the job in a single day.

      That was just the tip of the iceberg; the place was a sh*t-hole, his officemate was dealing in stolen car parts, and much, much more. I think he lasted a few months there before finding a position at the company where I was working.

      However, it does sound like your case may be a little different, since the start of the school year necessitates a quick turnaround in hiring. But still, I’d ask as many questions as I could think of, and try to talk to colleagues and not just management if at all possible.

    11. Quinalla*

      Agreed that the speedy hiring process, especially when they need to fill a spot so immediately, is not a bad thing by itself. My last place, we gave offers quickly as if you have good candidates, you often know if the first 10 minutes of a interview that you want them. You still do your due diligence, but even calling references it often doesn’t take that long to make an offer if your hiring folks are committed to moving quickly.

      Don’t feel bad asking more questions if you need some more information, but I’d try to do it all at once and it sounds like a phone call might be needed.

      And yes, don’t feel bad about letting company B know your situation, even if you think you might turn it down anyway. You letting them know is guaranteeing that you will accept an offer if they give you one and if they treat it that way, its on them, not you.

    12. Cascadia*

      I work in a school and this is super normal! Not red-flaggy at all. We had a person announce they were leaving two weeks ago and now it’s a mad-rush to find someone before school starts in a week and a half. I don’t think this, in an of itself, is a red flag at all.

    13. Forking great username*

      As someone who just found a teaching job for the year about a week ago, I don’t think this is a red flag at all. The school year is starting very soon, and it is to their benefit to find someone ASAP so that person can begin setting up their classroom, lesson planning, etc. Since accepting my job, I’ve gotten three more phone calls asking me in for interviews elsewhere! I hate that it’s apparently so common to do the last minute rush, but that is the case. Honestly, I would rather work for some of the schools I’ve heard from since accepting the first offer, but at this point I’ve put in a week of professional development and worked super hard to get my classroom set up, so I don’t want to start over. So I hear you on wishing it worked differently, but many schools don’t figure out exactly what positions need to be filled until the end of summer, and it’s really a detriment to the students to start the year without a teacher in the room. That means rushing is their only option.

      1. Forking great username*

        Meant to add – if you’re unemployed and need a paycheck now (same here), I would take the job. Stick it out for a year, then you can have a lower pressure (not unemployed) chance to consider different options when openings for next year come around.

        1. Afiendishthingy*

          Pretty sure I’m going to call and accept on Monday. Even if the other agency does make me an offer, it will likely be for a slightly lower base salary at an org notorious for almost never giving raises, whereas the position I was offered is paid on a public school teacher salary schedule (so guaranteed yearly raises) even though it’s through a nonprofit collaborative and I’m a behavior specialist, not a teacher. Also the job-in-hand is like 8 minutes closer to my house.

          1. Logan*

            The more that I hear about it, the more that I think you know your decision but want some moral support in confirming that it’s the right choice.

    14. roisin54*

      I had a similar situation, also at an educational institution, although the time between finding the posting & applying and going to the interview was a couple of weeks. After the interview was finished I went off and did some touristy things for a couple hours and by the time I got home, I had a voicemail from the Director offering me the job. I was too much of a newbie in the working world to think it was weird although my mom did express some concerns. It turned out to be a great job and I only left because it was a small institution and there was zero room for advancement.

      The only real downside was that I was somewhat spoiled by this experience and thus completely unprepared for my next go-round on the job-hunting circuit, which was a more standard months long search with countless interviews. It was a very rude awakening.

    15. dawbs*

      Education is an anomaly in thi whole time thing.

      (and it’s infuriating. i had an education job once that refused to hire, even temporarily, people looking for teaching jobs. Bbecause they always left without notice once they got an offer -bbecause the job was always contingent on immediate start.
      I explained this in detail to a candidate i reallythought was awesome. He promised to give proper notice. i talked the boss into hiring him.
      he left without notice when he got a teaching job. Contingent on immediate strt )

    16. Courageous cat*

      I think you’re putting way too much stock in the quick hiring process. Some places do it like that, and it’s clear they really liked you if they didn’t have to spend much time debating. You like them – so go with them, and turn down company B.

    17. Marika*

      It happens in education. I once got a call 7 days before term started. 8:30 pm. “Can you be here at 9 am tomorrow to interview?”. I was also unemployed, so sure. 20 minute interview and she offered me a contract for 3 courses. I asked fo a few minutes, called my husband, accepted the position and was in a staff meeting at 9:45 am. I was there 3 years, full time after the first year, and only left because my husband got a job in another country.

      In this case, a full time had walked into my boss’s office at 10:30 on Tuesday morning and said “I’m having emergency surgery on my eyes tomorrow morning”. My boss covered two of her classes with people she had, and asked HR for a stack of resumes. She ranked then and started calling people. If she got voicemail, she didn’t leave a message. I was the first person to pick up – I was eighth in her list (I asked later). She had five working days to get someone up to speed on three classes. Sometimes that’s just how it goes.

    18. CA Educator*

      Having just quit, with a few weeks before school started, due to a crappy work environment (But we’re like FAMILLYYYYYY!!) ….
      I would ask why the person quit. I would talk to the aides, not the teachers. Talk to the librarian. The environment I was in seemed fine and nice on the surface, but it took time for the ugly dysfunction to show its self. The other teachers are the problem, but pretend to be “like family” and that was a phrase that was used A LOT.

      Not every school is like that, but to get the info…ask the staff. Don’t talk to the teachers or admin about issues you need to be aware of, they always downplay it.
      If someone JUST quit, I would be wary. Most don’t quit without another job lined up unless things are Not Good .

  3. Future Scribe*

    Does anyone have any experience doing freelance transcriptions? It seems like a job that could pay very well and be very flexible so I’m considering it as a side gig. Is the pay worth it? How do you find clients?

    1. I See Real People*

      Not in the medical transcription field. I had a very successful and moderately lucrative business at home for 11 years before the gov’t began to require all records be billed/recorded via electronic medical records. I was mainly transcribing from microcassette and doing some online. When it went to 100% online/EMR, the only jobs that were available had to do with editing dictation after voice recognition, and they weren’t paying enough to have my attention.

      I have some attorney friends who say some dictation/transcription is still being done in the legal field, but mostly by assistants in the larger firms and offices.

      I would be curious if there are any other freelance opportunities as well in other areas of business.

      1. Baby Fishmouth*

        I currently work at a university and the faculty members do use transcription for research interviews and things like that.

        1. GradStudent*

          I am also at a university where our faculty will have things transcribed. Unfortunately for the transcribers, we now mostly use online services (e.g., Rev) where the transcribers are gig-type workers. I imagine that if you’ve gathered some professional experience as a transcriber, have a pedal and all that jazz, you might be able to reach a decent hourly rate with it, but otherwise it is very low-paid especially starting out.

    2. Silverblum*

      I didn’t do it freelance, but you could check out the closed captioning world. They often need folks to transcribe movies/television shows.

    3. KarenK*

      I currently freelance with Rev.com, but it’s not what I would call lucrative. It does keep me out of trouble, though, and earns me a bit of money.

      Unfortunately, the transcription business is not what it used to be. I had one medical transcription client that paid me about $10,000 a year, but, with the advent of electronic medical records, they did not need me any more. The doctors type their own stuff. I still have a couple of other clients, but they don’t provide me with a lot of work, unless one of them happens to be writing a book.

      There are several on-line transcription companies. Some pay better than others. The ones that pay better usually require a lot of expertise, and they all have varying levels of autonomy in how you manage your workload. Rev is not the highest paying of the bunch, but not the worst, and you have total freedom to work or not work, and pick your jobs. If you start looking, avoid Scribie.com. The pay and the quality of the audio is horrible.

      I got my two private clients by word of mouth. I happened to mention to one person that I did transcription on the side, she told a friend of hers, who became one of my clients, who then told her friend, who became the other. I’ve been working for both for about 15 years. I do other things for them, though, not just transcription.

      I know I’m not being very encouraging. To be honest, the whole field is looking pretty grim. Voice to text software is getting better all the time, and by that, I mean software that converts an audio file to text. Dragon is a whole other ballgame.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I briefly worked for an online transcription company doing mostly transcriptions of corporate teleconferences, and it was… the pay wasn’t good. They paid by the minute of audio transcribed, had very strict turnaround times for the transcriptions, did not provide any equipment, and paid peanuts. Sometimes I made less than minimum wage. If I did super-fast-turnaround transcriptions the money was adequate but there was massive competition for those transcriptions since they paid better, so I was never able to make anything even approaching a living wage. As a bonus I got tendinitis, in part because they didn’t pay me enough to afford a transcription pedal in 2006 (those suckers were like $200!). Then I couldn’t afford to treat the tendinitis because I was an independent contractor with no benefits so I just had to not work and wear ace bandages on my wrists.

        It was a side hustle for me so it wasn’t the worst thing in the world. I was just doing it to have something to do until I started grad school and to be able to put something on my resume. But I would definitely not call it lucrative.

    4. Superman's Wife*

      I used to do transcriptions a few years ago. Most of my work stemmed from production companies looking to do subtitles and closed captions. I taught myself transcription and subtitling software and purchased everything out of pocket (you may be able to claim it as a deduction as a business expense depending on your income). I used software that didn’t require a pedal and allowed me to use keystrokes to pause the audio. But you had to have it in digital format; that was one of my requirements. I assume these days most audio is digital. You will need access to an FTP site, dropbox or something similiar where clients can upload their audio/video files as these tend to be too large to email.

      The pay was good, but only because I hustled and also did translations on the side, which pay more per minute of audio. The work can be stressful, especially with rush jobs that have tight turnaround times. However, those usually pay the most.

      You can approach production companies and translation companies (they do English>English transcriptions as well as other languages). Be prepared to have samples of your work. You can advertise on proz.com (although it’s for translators, I used to get English>English transcription from them too) and on online directories targeting post-production houses.

      Other avenues include law firms and financial firms. But here the learning curve is a little steep since you will need to be familiar with financial terms.

      The beauty of it is that you can do it from anywhere you have internet and can plug in your laptop. But in order to make the most money you have to really build a client base and that takes time. I would start with a few projects a week and take it from there. I wouldn’t drop my daytime job until you have build a solid client base and are making enough to support yourself.

      Best of luck!

    5. LilySparrow*

      I did home transcription work through a large agency. They had a lot of government contracts, so there was always plenty of work and I didn’t have to worry about finding clients.

      Pros: very convenient, no commute, no pitching or marketing, as much work as I wanted, very pleasant & professional supervisors/editors, I could choose how much work to take each week.

      Cons: the normal setup was overnight turnarounds for shorter files, and 2-3 days for longer ones. I pulled a lot of all-nighters, which are a bad fit for my lifestyle.

      I also discovered that while I’m a fast typist, transcription is a skillset of its own. They paid a very reasonable rate compared to market averages I saw at the time. But they pay by the minutes of recording time. I was too slow to make the pay work out in my favor.

    6. frockbot*

      Similar to KarenK’s experience, I transcribe through a website called TranscribeMe, where you’re given four minute chunks of various conversations to work on. They pay based on the length of the files, not how long it takes you. I started doing it to give myself a little extra spending money; my goal was to earn $25 a week to put into savings, and I’d say I had to spend about 10 hours a week transcribing to earn that much. I’ve cut back significantly lately thanks to a raise at my full-time job; my goal now is $5 a week, which is around the minimum they expect from you (three jobs per week, each job being worth about ~$1.50). I spend an hour to an hour and a half every week on it now.

      So if you’re looking for a bit of extra cash to throw around, it can be good! It’s nice to get to decide how much time you want to devote to it, and some conversations are really interesting. As a company, I like TranscribeMe and the way they do things, too. But we’re talking A BIT of extra cash, not anything to write home about. And there are fallow periods where there’s very little work to go around; when those hit, transcribing can be a pretty unreliable source of income.

    7. Lissa*

      Depending on how fast you type, you could also look into live captioning. There are a few different systems you can use/learn, some are verbatim and some aren’t. Live captioning is typically done for hard of hearing people, and can be used for university classes, meetings, just about anything really. I do this as my full time job on site for a school and supplement in slow times with remote agencies, but there are also people who do it as a side gig only.

  4. Arnie*

    I have a question about a big salary difference between a regular employee and a substitute!

    I work in a European country where salaries are public knowledge; I also have access to a budgeting program as part of my job where I check how much money is being spent on my team’s salaries.

    I was away on parental leave for about 7 months, and Jane was hired on as my substitute. When I came back I was shocked to see that her monthly salary is 40% higher than mine.

    Neither I nor Jane have formal training or education in this job, and our work experience is fairly divergent. The job is student recruiting for a small but diverse department within a medium-large public university. Jane has done a great job, and we get along very well.

    Before I saw her salary I was very pleased with my own! I’ve been steadily promoted during my 5 years within this organization and received two hefty (for this sector) raises two years in a row.

    Now my annual salary review is coming up and I want to bring up this discrepancy. Because I have new duties, I’ll be discussing salary with a different boss who probably had nothing to do with negotiating Jane’s salary. I want to be well-prepared because I find this particular manager intimidating. He is quite brusque and once told me that approving my time sheets to rectify months of incorrect paychecks was “quite low on his priority list”. (Yes, it’s probably a dysfunctional organization)

    I’m too socially-conditioned to call myself a rock star, but during my 5 years at this organization, I’ve been promoted to more important and interesting duties, and I receive a lot of positive feedback from my managers and colleagues. I’m not sure how to productively phrase my feeling that if “the substitute” is worth 40% more, then “the regular” should get that, too?

    Thanks for ideas about how to approach this!

    1. WellRed*

      Is she getting benefits? Also, while that’s a big discrepancy, are you sure she’s actually getting paid that? Is she hired through an agency? Finally, I don’t think it’s unusual to pay someone short term a higher salary but maybe it’s different in EU.

      1. Arnie*

        I can’t think of any benefits (in this country and this sector) that she might be getting; healthcare and retirement are government-funded; vacation days are set based on age and sick leave is “unlimited”. Other benefits like gym membership are for all employees.

        I’m sure about how much she’s getting paid because I can see in the accounting program how much money is being deducted from our budget for her salary versus mine.

        Thanks for your insight! I didn’t know that it could be common to pay a short-term worker more than the regular employee!

        1. SarahKay*

          Two thoughts – one is that WellRed is quite right, and short-term heads in fields where there is demand often are paid more, since they have to earn enough to cover gaps when they’re earning nothing.
          The other is – are the numbers you are seeing what she is actually being paid, or simply what the school is paying out for her? I budget for/pay temp staff and what I budget (and pay for them) is something like 25% more than they actually get, because the agency takes a cut.

        2. Amy Farrah Fowler*

          Was she brought in through a temp agency, or was your company paying her directly? Because it might be that the agency gets a fairly significant cut of her pay. When I worked as a temp I ran across an invoice for my services (I was helping in accounting, so I wasn’t snooping), and the agency was charging the company ~$40-45/hr, and my hourly wage was $15/hr. Maybe that could account for the difference?

          1. Wendy Darling*

            I started with a company as a temp and then was converted to permanent and ended up in charge of bringing on some new temps for a specific project. The agency’s cut varied depending on how well the temp negotiated but it was 40-60% of what the company was paying.

      2. Persephone Mulberry*

        My first thought also was an agency; if she was placed by an agency, then the agency is actually her employer and your company would be budgeting for her wages plus the agency’s fees.

        What about taxes? In the US, if she were directly hired as an independent contractor , her wage would be higher because the company isn’t doing any withholding for income tax, social security, etc. That could easily account for a 40% difference.

        1. Arnie*

          Thanks everyone for your replies! I’m almost positive there’s no agency involved; I was a part of the group that hired her, directly by the university.

          She does have a temporary employment contract as opposed to my permanent contract, but the tax withholding is the same for us.

          1. Operational Chaos*

            Temporary versus permanent. That’s how temp work operates. You came back to your job and now she’s out of one until another oppertunity arises. People who take these short term roles on need to be paid more otherwise no one would be willing to take them on.

            Also, I know you said you don’t think she’s placed by an agency, but I would be surprised if she wasn’t. Temp agencies are extremely common for people who use these roles.

    2. Bea*

      Since its a temporary placement and she’s filling a spot until your return, I can see needing to up the salary to get a person to accept the setup. However 40% is a lot!

    3. Lemon Bars*

      If she is a substitute that is only employed by your company while you were out on leave and then is no longer employed by your company than she would get paid more mostly because her contract would be for a short amount of time and its harder to find people for that. Also most benefits would not be paid to her (leave, retirement, etc) so she would be contributing that based out of her salary.

      1. Arnie*

        The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that temporary contracts get better paid than the permanent ones, because the employer can look at it as a short-term expense! Thanks for all the helpful comments! I’m still going to mention it at my review, but now I feel a lot less emotional about it. ;-)

  5. Anon anony*

    I’m in Records Management and have a “behavioral interview” at a law firm. Any advice? Is there a way to practice behavioral questions? Also, what should I wear/how should I do my hair?

    2. Doug Judy*

      Hair, less is more. Clean and neat is enough. Wear a black suit, neutral top (white, grey) with minimal pattern. Law firms still are fairly conservative.

    3. Lolli*

      Go through your memory of your work experience and note times when you managed a big project, dealt with a difficult customer/boss/coworker, had conflicting deadlines, had an urgent deadline dropped on you at the last minute, had a failure and dealt with it. These are the types of memories to jot down and come up with positive outcomes. If you have gone through some of your more difficult work experiences and successes, then you will have them fresh in your mind for the interview.
      Wear conservative clothes and hair.

    4. brightstar*

      For the behavioral questions, I would think about some of the typical difficulties in RIM such as:
      1. Delays in response to requests for records retention schedule updates, disposition requests, etc.
      2. Responding to a request for records in a certain time-frame.
      3. The challenge of explaining records management concepts to staff.

      Those are just options off the type of my head. And remember, if you haven’t faced the exact scenario, to say you have something that resembled that problem, etc.

      As for dress, law firms still tilt to the conservative side on dressing. It’s been a few years since I worked in law, but that last firm still had you wear pantyhose with skirts or dresses and had only recently allowed open-toed shoes.

    5. nisie*

      Also- I don’t know if this is just my experience or more broad. Whenever I’ve had a behavioral interview, I’ve had a panel who is asking questions.

    6. Jenn*

      I was asked a lot of behavioral questions when I was applying for my most recent job! What I was taught that helped me the most during the interview was the “STAR” method of answering:
      Situation: Provide an exposition for the story you are about to tell. What was the context?
      Task: What did you need to do? What was the problem you had to solve?
      Action: How did you solve this? What low and/or high points did you encounter?
      Resolution: What happened as a result of your action? What is the big picture end of the story?

      It can feel sort of hokey but I would always practice out loud alone in my apartment before each interview using examples that were relevant to the company or office I was interviewing with. Having the little mnemonic device written down at the top of my interview notes helped me calm any nerves and not get lost in the moment.

    7. LilySparrow*

      My last law firm job was in 2014, in a fairly conservative part of the country.

      For support staff, dress slacks with jacket & tie would be expected for men. A skirt or slacks suit, or dress with blazer, for women. Daily wear would be down a notch: shirt & tie or skirt & cardigan, or a conservative dress.

      Hair similar: clean, neat, not flashy. For short hair, anything that isn’t too obviously dependent on product. For longer hair, a low ponytail for guys (no man bun!) would probably be accepted for back-office support. For a woman with long hair, you want to stay between the extremes of bedhead/beach waves on one hand, or pageant queen on the other. Loose or put up is fine as long as it’s styled and they can see your whole face.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Oh, and bare legs and open-toe shoes were fine, as long as they weren’t mules or flip-flops. Stick with knee-length or lower skirts for the interview.

  6. AnonChemist*

    I have a question about a for-now hypothetical situation. Although I’m not currently pregnant, I am in the process of trying. I know that generally one doesn’t disclose a pregnancy at all before the end of the first trimester and even after that, disclosing at work doesn’t always happen earlier than necessary. But I’m wondering what to do when aspects of one’s work might be hazardous even in the first trimester. I work in a small academic chemistry lab (staff, not student) where our work relies on DMF and DCM for the first half of every project. The literature on both of these isn’t 100% clear-cut, but there’s evidence that exposure isn’t good even at very early stages.

    While there isn’t really a paperwork-only position for me to assume during any pregnancy, I believe it would be feasible to propose to my boss that I shift to working only on the second-half stages of the projects we get. (we always have second-half stages of various projects ongoing, so it wouldn’t be a matter of my being left without work) He’s generally a good boss, so I’m not concerned about long-term negative consequences of being on limited duty. I’ve worked here for almost three years and have received excellent performance reviews in that time. That includes a span when I was out on short-term disability following surgery. I aim to stay here for the foreseeable future.

    But I am wondering if I should have this conversation with him even before getting pregnant. On the one hand it seems like asking him to adjust the lab’s workflow on the fly is inconsiderate and disruptive, as would happen if I waited to bring it up until I was actually pregnant. And yet I also don’t want to inadvertently open a can of legal liability worms if I’m overlooking something or look like I’m manufacturing drama/issues. How would a good manager likely prefer this to be handled?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I wouldn’t talk to your boss until you are actually pregnant. And have spoken with your doctor and what precautions you need to take.

    2. Sue No-Name*

      If you don’t want to talk about the pregnancy could you state that you would like to use additional PPE (mask, long gloves) because of a generalized health concern? Minimizing exposure could be helpful (rather than just not being anywhere near dimethylformamide and dichloromethane, which I assume are the chemicals you’re referencing). Also do you always use a fume hood?

    3. I'll think of a clever name later...maybe.*

      Are there any female co-workers who’ve worked there while pregnant who you can talk to? It might be worth asking how they handled their pregnancy and working with potentially damaging chemicals.

    4. anna green*

      Can you talk to your doctor before you get pregnant? When I had my first I was in a similar situation, and I had a pre-pregnancy visit with my doctor, so I could go over my job responsibilities, etc. so I had a good understanding of what to avoid. That may make you feel more comfortable and prepared. I think you could go either way on talking to your manager depending on your relationship, but there’s not a whole lot he can do for you if you are not actually pregnant yet, and it can potentially take a while to get pregnant, so I’m not sure if I would.

      1. anna green*

        Oh and to add to that, it won’t be weird if you disclose your pregnancy right away at work to avoid hazards. That’s normal. You can try to keep it confidential with just your boss, but depending, that may not be possible. But definitely don’t feel like you shouldn’t say anything at work until after the 1st trimester. Baby’s health comes first!

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Yeah, I had to disclose mine way before I intended because an evil Keurig machine near me was going all day and pumping out noxious coffee fumes which for some reason made me violently ill first trimester (and I love coffee normally). I needed the machine moved.

          1. Wendy Darling*

            I am not and have never been pregnant and I love coffee but most Keurig machines I’ve met smelled like the neglected 40 year old percolator at the back of a dingy break room.

            Possibly they are supposed to be cleaned regularly but were cleaned never.

      2. Nancy*

        Definitely talk to your doctor beforehand. Often there are things you need to do/avoid before you are trying to become pregnant because often you are pregnant before you realize it. Especially when it comes to chemical exposure.

    5. Calacademic*

      I got pregnant in grad school. The OBGYN was unhelpful… so it felt like it was on me and my professor to be safe. So we talked, shifted my work to the safer alternatives and it worked out fine. His only beef was that I didn’t tell him sooner. In my new position, I supervise a young woman in a lab setting. I have told her that if she wants to start trying to get pregnant, or find herself pregnant, she should come tell me immediately so we can shift her duties. Other staff have also backed me up in this. When you work with chemicals, the normal first-trimester rules don’t apply.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        I would not expect and OB/GYN to be able to keep track of all the risks associated with work in a chemistry lab off the top of her head, so getting a fast answer through a physician might not be realistic; she’ll probably have to present this question in stages to let the doctor double-check herself. I mean, yes, ask, of course, but be prepared to do research since the LW has a much better idea of what she’s likely to encounter on the job than her doctor can. MSDS sheets have to be available at her job, and are online, and she needs to find other women in comparable positions who have had children.

    6. Emi.*

      I would wait until you’re actually pregnant. If you got pregnant unexpectedly, he would deal, right? Don’t stress about this. :) And good luck!

      1. Emi.*

        Wait, unless you’re saying that you’d want to avoid exposure in the week or two before you know you’re pregnant, so you want to move to just second-stage work now. In that case I would talk to him and ask him to keep it confidential.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          I think that’s tough because it can literally take years of trying, and OP doesn’t know where she is on the scale until she starts. So unless something is so hazardous that they just rule out all people of reproductive age, I’d wait until you have a positive drug store test.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            Yeah, I’d second that. If the job is so hazardous that you shouldn’t do it during those first couple of weeks when you don’t know you’re pregnant, you need to either be on very reliable birth control, or in a different job. You can’t ask to forgo a significant part of your job for potentially years at a time because you might get pregnant.

            But as soon as you’ve got a positive pregnancy test, you can talk to your supervisor. But I wouldn’t depend on your OBGYN to be knowledgeable about chemistry lab exposures (compared to common environmental exposures, or medications), so I’d do the research yourself beforehand, and come armed with the documents.

            And if your supervisor is a reasonable person, asking in advance how you’d handle the job duties during a pregnancy would also be appropriate. There are duties in my field that can’t be done while pregnant (mostly involving altitude work), and employers are familiar with the issue and have ways of dealing with it.

    7. Me Again*

      As others have stated, you might want to talk to your physician first. My mother had a hard time staying pregnant because of chemicals she was around and had to be moved not only while pregnant, but while trying. I would’t tell your boss though unless you do need to be moved prior to pregnancy. Once pregnant, I always told my supervisor right away as a precaution. If something happened and I passed out or…I wanted someone to know for an emergency situation. However, I didn’t always disclose it right away to my colleagues. GL!

    8. Trout 'Waver*

      I’ve been the manager in this situation.

      Talk to your doctor first. Bring the SDSs for the chemicals you’ll be working with. Go through the potential hazards with the doctor and decide what you can and can’t do. There are some chemicals are that hazardous to women trying to become pregnant, so it’s fine to do this before you’re pregnant.

      After talking to your doctor, talk to your manager and tell them the situation and what accommodations you need. It might be as simple as enhanced PPE or always working in a fume hood. No good manager wants to expose a pregnant woman to chemicals that could harm her fetus. Take the stance that you’re both reasonable people working together to find an acceptable solution for your situation.

      Best wishes!

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        I want to add that you might have to ask around to find a doctor that’s knowledgeable about these things.

    9. The Person from the Resume*

      I don’t know the technical details, but it sounds like in this case as early as necessary might even be when you are trying to get pregnant. As a supervisor and a planner, I’d prefer a heads up that something might be coming.

      A lot of time not disclosing until you absolutely have to is because of both keeping personal info private (not telling many people until you pass into the period of less likely miscarriage) and to avoid negative impact to job/discrimination. I think in your case the safety concerns make it reasonable to disclose to your boss as soon as you know. Hopefully you don’t have to tell everyone, but I suppose they could guess if it’s obvious that you’re only working on second-half stages.

    10. Nita*

      I guess a couple of things to consider are, just how disruptive will it be if you need to be switched on short notice? And is a short-term exposure to these chemicals a big risk early on (before you know for sure that you’re pregnant)?

      I waited to talk to my boss until I was actually pregnant, but it wasn’t a huge disruption for me to stay away from field work with potential for running into something toxic. Any exposures I was risking were at low levels and short-term, and the chemicals involved are generally dangerous only at high doses and/or over the long term, so it worked out OK. And of course, there is the possibility of increasing your PPE. That does mean you’ll need to have some kind of explanation for people who see you, let’s say, wearing a respirator when everyone else is not, and may start pregnancy rumors well before you’re pregnant. You might be able to explain it away with vague “health concerns” though.

    11. sleepwakehopeandthen*

      I know at my university you can talk to the Office of Chemical Safety/etc (I’m not quite sure what they are called, but the people who do safety inspections) if you are thinking about getting pregnant and they will meet with you to go through what the lab does and see if you need to change anything. I’m not sure how useful they are admittedly, but I know that they say that this is something that they will do 100% confidentially without telling your PI, so your university might have similar resources.

    12. TricksieHobbit*

      I think it depends how hazardous the materials are. You could possibly be pregnant for several weeks before “knowing”?

    13. Nesprin*

      OMG tell your supervisor/industrial hygeinist/health and safety person yesterday. Am a research scientist and I couldn’t get to the end of your post without replying- no way in hell would I work around DMF or a number of other solvents. Trying to conceive is a legitimate reason to alter your work with teratogens or increase PPE or alter acceptable exposure limits, and your university would be thrilled to avoid a lawsuit later.

      1. Nesprin*

        I wanted to add- very early in pregnancy is a highly sensitive time for chemical exposures, so waiting till you’re pregnant as others are suggesting is a terrible idea.

      2. StillAChemist*

        Second this and others who have said to talk to chemical hygiene/EHS, as well as your boss. EHS may already have guidelines in place for this kind of thing; I know it’s often not discussed either way which can make us feel like there’s no plan. I would document all of the steps any of you take, for your peace of mind and also to develop a plan for future people trying to concieve if one doesn’t already exist (even just for your lab).

      3. LabTech*

        no way in hell would I work around DMF or a number of other solvents.

        I was thinking the same thing about DCM. It’s a very common solvent, so it’s easy to see it as no big deal when you’re working with it all day, but it’s also very bad for you.

      4. Anna Canuck*

        I also wouldn’t rely on a doctor’s advice. They don’t know any more about this than you do. They can google it, and they will if you ask them to, but you’re much better to read the risks yourself and make informed choices.

        Tell your boss what’s up. Your stress level will go way down. But also true is that something like half of all pregnancies are unplanned, so if you just show up pregnant one day it’s not really out of the norm.

      5. Logan*

        Agreed, and at the least it would be worth a chat with the supervisor to do as much work as possible that isn’t around chemicals.

    14. Ender*

      Check out the laws where you live. Where I live I would be legally entitled to a confidential H&S risk assessment as soon as I told The H&S department I was pregnant – they would risk assess my exposure to any dangerous material or work and inform my boss that I was no longer allowed to do certain tasks due to a temporary medical condition. My boss would not be allowed find out what the condition was without my permission and my job would be legally protected.

    15. Cedrus Libani*

      Depending on your workflow, is there a chance you can convince a colleague to swap duties with you?

      I was formerly in a lab that worked with something known to cause severe birth defects in early pregnancy. There was a room set aside for the stuff, everyone knew what it was for, and using it outside that room was Not Done. When baby-making entered someone’s plans, they would quietly arrange to swap duties with a colleague, so they didn’t have to go in there. Sharp-eyed observers would notice that when Lucinda’s teapots need to be painted Three-Headed Baby Blue, it’s Wakeen who does it, and also Lucinda has been cleaning the chocolate grinder even though that’s Wakeen’s job. But there was plausible deniability until Lucinda was ready to tell.

      Also second the recommendation of going to EHS. They can be helpful, and they might catch things you missed.

    16. Drama Llama*

      I would get medical advice about working in the lab while trying to get pregnant, since you wouldn’t know until you’re at least 4+ weeks along.

      Unless there’s a medical reason otherwise, I wouldn’t talk to the boss until confirming pregnancy. Everything else aside, you’re simply alerting boss of a potential issue that hasn’t happened, thus he can’t plan for it or do anything about it.

    17. Another Chemist*

      Hello fellow chemist,
      Being female and working in a lab with dichloromethane and dimethylformamide, I know that at my workplace, any woman trying to conceive can consult their managers to reevaluate their duties and expect the conversation to remain confidential. So we talk before conception here. That would be the safest option. Of course, you better have a reasonable manager who will not publicize the news, and if you don’t I understand you’d be reluctant.

      However, I cannot insist enough on this : the DMF, notably, is CMR, and it is on the SDS it is under NO circumstances to be used by pregnant workers. Fume hoods, coats, gloves, they don’t matter. The reward has no significance compared to the risk.

      If you don’t want to speak to your boss and you have access to occupational health care, I suggest you contact this person for recommandations.

    18. AnonChemist*

      Not sure if this is a good place to post so all the kind people who replied will see a week later, but worth a shot. Thanks to everyone who replied–a lot of very useful perspectives, and a lot of replies that made me feel better about being concerned in the first place.

      In the past week I contacted my university’s ORS (I’m in the US) along with my doctors. The doctors’ input boiled down to ‘yay wearing PPE, good luck!’ ORS was more helpful in confirming the university procedures if I ended up needing to go through formalities and backing up my assessment and that of several posters here that DMF is worth worrying about. There aren’t any other female workers in my lab, and most of the people in my center aren’t chemists, so there wasn’t anyone with specific prior experience around to ask in person.

      I ended up weighing what I knew of my boss and the circumstances in our lab, and I had a meeting with him this morning to alert him to the potential situation and get feedback on a reasonable plan in the event of pregnancy. He was fine and understood my concerns, and we agreed that a) upon knowledge of conception I’ll turn over all DMF/DCM-containing procedures to my two colleagues and b) in the meantime I’ll order some better rated non-permeable gloves to supplement the nitrile ones we commonly use. The second point is why I opted to talk to him sooner rather than later, as I’d need his approval to order different lab supplies.

      In an ideal world where I could predict the future I’d stop using DMF immediately, but given that at my age it could take a while to conceive under normal conditions, potentially going 2-3 years without doing half my job functions just isn’t feasible for me. I know others might make a different choice, and I may reevaluate down the line, but this is the best option for me overall for now.

      In the meantime I’ll continue to do my work in a fume hood with full PPE and be cautious. Here’s hoping for the best, and thanks again to everyone who weighed in!

  7. Marcia marcia marcia*

    How do I work on my “poker face” towards someone who pretty clearly dislikes me?

    This person is perfectly nice to those in the office they like. They’re chatty, bubbly and friendly with these people, but never say anything to me unless it’s work-related.

    I must have rubbed them the wrong way early on; I have good rapport with other people in the office, including the boss. I shouldn’t care so much, but it hurts.

    1. I See Real People*

      That person is probably jealous or threatened by you for a reason or reasons that you will never understand; nevertheless, they will treat you unkindly and unfairly. There is one like that at my current office and there was one at the last office as well. I’m sorry. It does hurt. I turn on my best professional nonchalance attitude and move on about my day. That person is in way more misery being twisted up than you are in your good place of mind (and heart).

      1. Zona the Great*

        I don’t know about that and I’m not sure I would speculate here. Sometimes we dislike people. At work, I feel it’s best to try our very best not to take things personally. I have been on the receiving end of this dynamic and I have been the person who just talks less frequently to those I don’t particularly like. But there is a caveat: I don’t believe it is anyone’s business if I don’t like them nor do I think it is their problem. I treat people respectfully but I’m not going to worry about lunching with my friends and not with others. I also don’t think it is my business what someone else thinks of me and so I try not to care if someone in the office brings coffee to some and not me. There is a balance.

      2. uranus wars*

        I am like Zona and definitely think jealousy is a big assumption. I don’t expect to friends with everyone just because we work together. As long as the work gets done and there is a level of respect (not badmouthing, gossip, refusal to work together, etc.) then I think it’s something to re frame and stop letting eat you up.

        I have been on the giving and receiving end of this, where outside of work things just aren’t discussed (even though I wouldn’t describe myself as overly chatty and bubbly with anyone) and can’t remember a time in my career when some dynamic of this sort hasn’t been in play between someone in the office.

      3. attornaut*

        Maybe? I don’t know. There is a person at my office that I really dislike. I am not jealous–they are just not a pleasant person to be around. Now, I do make an effort to be polite and professional, but I do not delve into their personal life or go out to lunch with them or talk to them outside of work. It’s a little different situation because this person is actively rude to everyone in the office without a higher title than them, but there are reasons to dislike someone other than jealous or being twisted up in misery. Sometimes you just don’t get along with everyone.

        1. anon4now*

          But you cited “actively rude” and a disregard for hierarchy as reasons, not just not getting along.

          There’s no such thing as a happy well-adjusted person who just dislikes someone for no reason.

          1. polite but not bubbly doesn't equal mean*

            What? I find this honestly funny because people (yes, even happy well-adjusted people) absolutely do dislike others for no reason! Or rather, with their only reason being “I find them annoying”, which honestly isn’t a real reason past a personality mismatch, and that’s just fine.

            1. anon4now*

              I’m referring to actively disliking someone for no reason, not generic personal preferences everyone has for certain types of people/personalities (of course not everyone likes everything).
              If your dislike for no reason becomes obvious to the person, I’d re-examine my definition of a happy well-adjusted person.

              1. Zona the Great*

                I agree with Polite But Not….sometimes we dislike people for no reason. Perhaps a past life thing.

              2. Lavender Menace*

                There’s nothing unhappy or not-well-adjusted about choosing not to talk to someone in the office unless it’s necessary. Being polite and respectful is necessary for working with others – being chatty, bubbly, and friendly is not.

      4. Ender*

        This is a big assumption. Lots of people just don’t like each other without feeling threatened or jealous. The thing to remember is you don’t have to like each other or be friendly with each other – you just have to be professional and polite. It’s not necessary for her to like you.

        1. Minocho*

          There are all sort of people that like or dislike other people for all sorts of reasons.

          I have a coworker I don’t like much because the first time I spoke to her she was quite judgemental in a mothering, superior way. Since then, she makes demands and gives orders as if she has the right to control my decisions. I think she does this to show she “cares”, but I find it annoying and condescending. We don’t work together much, though we sit in adjoining cubicles, so I try to be polite but avoid engaging.

          I have a coworker who didn’t like me. I still don’t know why. It went beyond “I won’t go to lunch with my coworkers if Minocho is there” eventually into “Yelling at Minocho in front of the whole office”. Management stepped in at that point, and I just tried to avoid him. I can tell myself stories about what his problem with me might be, but it’s important I don’t let myself act on them, or lose track of the fact that they’re just things I tell myself, rather than fact.

          The best thing you can do is be professional and polite, while avoiding being run over. Good luck!

    2. dorothy zbornak*

      I don’t have advice but definitely have sympathy as I was in a similar situation at ToxicJob where one of my coworkers could not stand me – if I made a mistake it was like the end of the world but if anyone else did, it was no big deal. And nothing I tried worked. For poker faces in general, I think mine got a lot better when I was active in Toastmasters and I think just trying to focus on the task at hand when you’re having work-related discussions.

    3. Orphan Brown*

      I would try to mirror them. I have this with one person and I don’t shown enthusiasm for them either. I don’t know what’s up their butt but I don’t care anymore.

    4. MegPie*

      I would address it head on, in a polite way, of course. You may find that they have an issue that would be easy for you to clear up (or apologize for, if you inadvertently did something that merits an apology).

      Also, if you do this and they say there’s nothing wrong (which is obviously untrue), then you can adjust accordingly. I deal with people like this by taking them at their word that everything is fine. Just be as professional and friendly as you can.

      I’m sorry. It does sound hurtful.

      1. uranus wars*

        But maybe there really isn’t anything wrong? I am not saying it doesn’t hurt but all personalities aren’t going to agree on all non-work related things all the time, right?

        I am saying this taking Marcia’s statement as the co-worker isn’t doing anything alarming or being inappropriate, just keeping it to work and not much else.

      2. Lissa*

        This is rough because if it IS a misunderstanding or something you actively did/said, it could help if the person is willing to say “well, you said X when we first met and that was hurtful” and you could say “oh wow, no I meant Y, I’m so sorry” or something. Possible. But if it’s just a “rub the wrong way” situation, addressing it will probably make things weirder. It might be worth the risk but in my experience “why don’t you like me” pretty much never makes things better.

        But, if it’s annoying enough you might find that it’s worth it to you to say something just in case, then take “no, nothing’s wrong” as “ok, they just don’t like me, fine, moving on” for your own peace of mind, knowing it’s unlikely to really improve things.

    5. AmeriCorps Alum*

      It does hurt you, and that’s what you need to work on to develop your poker face. Maybe you can talk to a friend about why this coworker’s brush-off bothers you–were you ever rejected or abandoned or made to feel unloved as a child, by classmates or a parent? Could you be projecting those feelings onto this situation? I think you will be best off if you can let go of the “need” for this coworker to like you or be nice to you (assuming it’s not interfering with your work – but you didn’t mention it is).

    6. anonymoushiker*

      When I run into this, I usually try to do 2 things a) remain as cheerful and friendly as possible when you do interact and b) remember that people are weird and it really isn’t a reflection on you as a person.

      1. Zona the Great*

        Totally! These dynamics are evident in all species and I think it is always best not to take things personally.

      2. uranus wars*

        This is really what I was trying to say above! We are all different, someone elses’s thoughts about you don’t mean you are doing anything wrong!

    7. Arjay*

      For a possibly different interpretation: I’m VERY shy around people I don’t know well. But if you see me with people I am comfortable with, I’m chatty, friendly, and dare I say, even bubbly. So the experience of passing me in the hall or riding in the elevator with me might make me seem aloof or cold when I just have no idea how to break the ice.

      1. Dasein9*

        Same. Also, I’m chatty with people who indicate to me that they have a moment to chat. If I haven’t read someone’s body language as indicating they welcome a visit, then I leave them alone, on the assumption that they’re concentrating.

      2. University Employee*

        Ditto! It’s so hard for me to get acquainted with new people, especially in a professional environment where it feels like making friends isn’t a priority anyways (although I know how important it is to have a good rapport with your coworkers). In most cases, the people I end up becoming friends with are the ones who initially went out of their way to have friendly conversations with me.

      3. As Close As Breakfast*

        Also same! Nearly every person I’ve ever become friends with has told me they didn’t like me at first, thought I was snobby or basically the biggest b**ch ever. But it’s just social awkwardness.

        On the other hand, there is a person I currently work with that could have literally written this comment about me. I’m absolutely professional and pleasant whenever I work with them. But I don’t interact with them other than when required for work, other than the occasional ‘good morning’. I don’t like this person (for work and other reasons) and that’s okay. People aren’t always going to like each other. As long as this coworker is being professional towards you OP (not being rude, gossiping, trying to get other people not to talk to you either, etc.) there’s not much to be done. As far as a ‘poker face’, I’d try just reminding myself that this person doesn’t have to like me just like I don’t have to like them.

      4. Alex*

        Same here. I have a hard time chatting people up unless I feel comfortable with them. It doesn’t mean I don’t like them. And it doesn’t even always have to do with how long I’ve known them or whatever. Some people I find easy to chat with, and other people I find myself engaging in awkward silence, and the reason is just “chemistry.”

        I think I would try to just not take it personally, or make an effort to be friendly with them and see what comes of that.

    8. Youth*

      I’m dealing with this, but from the other end.

      I have a coworker who is undoubtedly a nice guy, but his communication style is completely different from mine. He flatters and oozes sweet nothings when he wants something. I’ve got no patience for it. I’m direct, and I want him to be direct with me, so I don’t like it when we’re assigned to work together. Also he’s a chatter, and I’m not. I’m polite but try to be distant.

      He’s picked up on some of my annoyance (I know this for a fact because another coworker mentioned that he thinks I don’t like him), but instead of either asking me about it or trying to interact with me differently, he’s just chosen to turn on the charm to a million watts. Anytime he sees me for even a second, he jubilantly declares how good it is to see me and then acts all sad puppy dog when I don’t respond in kind. In my opinion, trying to force someone you’re certain doesn’t like you to tell you that they’re happy to see you is pretty manipulative, and he’s not helping his case.

      Don’t try to force people to like you. Just let it happen (or not happen).

      1. Anonymosity*

        He flatters and oozes sweet nothings when he wants something.

        Ugh, I have a relative who does this and it’s annoying AF. It’s so fake.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      To keep my poker face I concentrate on what is being said in the moment. This helps because as I listen closer I might find opportunities to pick up on a shared concern or a shared interest. Finding things in common is a good, solid way to loosen tension on a relationship.
      Random acts of kindness are a good idea but chose wisely. Don’t chose things that happen every day, because then it becomes something too huge and unwieldy. For example, a company gave us X on loan at work. (Vague, sorry.) I drove right by this company on the way home. I knew other people were feeling pretty maxed out. So I volunteered to take X back when they were done with it. This was a random loan and probably will not happen again, so I was not setting myself up for a daily/weekly task. These maxed out people were surprised and pleased because they did not expect the offer on my part.

      Example 2: One person said they were really worried about Y. I offered suggestion Z and the person thought it was a great idea. Here, all I did was look at the situation with the person. I did not do any work except to be a second set of eyes. The idea worked well and it helped to ease tension in our conversations. We went on to talk about more stuff. In this example, if the person is only talking about work, use the work discussions to show that you are a thinking person.

      There’s probably lots of reasons why people shut out the new hire. If you can pretend not to notice and weave her into conversations if she joins a conversation you are already in. (“Oh hi, Jane, we were just saying we really like the new teapots/ hate the snow storms/looking forward to vacation/whatever”.) You can say good morning and pretend not to notice she does not answer. The problem with techniques like this is you have to keep doing it even when it appears you are not gaining ground. And do you really want to put in all this effort? When I have been working in small groups where I saw the person daily, I have usually decided to put in the effort. If our shifts were random and we worked together once in a while, I might not chose to work so hard at pretending not to notice. It really depends on the setting and others around the setting.

    10. Thegs*

      As someone who is often on the other side of this, I often end up not talking to people because I don’t know what to talk with them about and I am already pretty awkward. So to spare us both the painful experience of trying to make small talk and pretend we’re having fun, I just don’t try. Perhaps they just don’t want to bore you with gripes about Blizzard’s handling of Resto Shaman balancing, or the finer details of how to choose the right orchid medium ;)

    11. Specialk9*

      There are lots of good answers here. One more thing is that therapy really helped me with exploring my tendency to feel distressed if ANYONE didn’t like me. It gives so much power to every yahoo, to harm you. And that’s a choice that you can take back. There was something liberating about that, especially as a woman. Sometimes reframing it as “enh that’s odd, wonder what their problem is, but it’s not MY problem” is a good solution instead. (For me it also took reducing anxiety with meds and CBD oil, and eliminating an abusive relationship from my life.)

    12. polite but not bubbly doesn't equal mean*

      I would just remember all the times you haven’t liked someone, even if you thought it was for a good reason. Not everyone likes everyone else, and it honestly makes it more weird if you try to press the issue. Just treat them like a normal person you don’t know well (polite without being over the top cheery) and stay focused on work. And ask yourself, why exactly do you want this person to like you personally, assuming they’re polite enough with work stuff? Just because? Did you actually want to pursue a friendship with them?

      I’ve observed this from the outside with two coworkers who I got along with fine taking an instant dislike to each other. Coworker A was willing to just not talk to Coworker B unless necessary, and stay busy when they were on shift together. She wouldn’t go around talking about it to others, though I was closer to her so I got the gist. Coworker B took it SO personally that someone would dislike him (Even though he didn’t like her either!) because he considered himself extremely nice, and would try to force cheery interactions on her, then pout visibly when she distanced herself more, then complain about how mean she was to everyone else, and repeat. Then he got paranoid that everyone else disliked him, and started the cycle with the rest of us. It didn’t end well!

    13. Logan*

      I’m an introvert. I engage well with people whom I have known for a long time, and have reason to be closer to (worked with on a project). If I don’t know someone well then I’m not going to have much to talk about other than work-related topics, and I’m not likely to be the one to make the effort.

      You are describing my behaviours, but assuming that the motivation is dislike, rather than a more neutral ‘not as friendly’. Maybe this person is different, as we aren’t there to make the judgement, but please know that it might have nothing to do with you.

    15. Courageous cat*

      Not sure if you’re new to your job, buuut… I had the same problem at the job I recently left, and it turned out to be that she wasn’t particularly nice to *any* newcomers until they’d been there for awhile, due to high turnover. Which I totally get. By the time I had left (after 8 months), she was just as warm and friendly to me as she was to everyone else. But it took months to get there.

  8. Murphy*

    My husband and I disagreed on this the other day and I’m curious to get AAM commenter’s take on it.

    He bought a gift for someone and said he was going to take it into the office for the receptionist to wrap. She likes wrapping presents, and has offered to do it for people, particularly around the holidays. I said that, to me, that reeked of a Mad Men-era, having the girl at the office do some menial tasks for him. He said it was OK since she offered and “I think she uses it to fill the day” because I guess she’s not super busy. I don’t think that anyone who lets her do this is a horrible person or anything, but it made me feel a bit icky. Am I off base here?

    1. ballpitwitch*

      I love to wrap and always throw this offer out as well! It sounds like your husband would have taken it in for anyone who offered to wrap whether they were the receptionist or not?

      I think it’s fine.

      2. Specialk9*

        It’s fine for you to offer, but I don’t think it’s ok for anyone to accept. (But especially not a man to a woman. And ESPECIALLY not a more senior -level man.)

        So… Maybe it’s actually not ok to offer, since that’s kinda like inviting them to trip up on gender and power dynamics.

    2. Stephanie*

      Yeah…I’d feel icky doing that. Maybe if it were like a gift for someone AT work, but even then, I agree it’s kind of Mad Men-esque.

    3. Baby Fishmouth*

      Nope, I’d feel the same way as you! I don’t think it’s *terrible* if she’s offering, but it’s still really weird to me.

    4. CTT*

      It feels icky to me too; if she’s offering and loves to do it, it shouldn’t be weird, but there’s something about bringing a gift to the office specifically to have her wrap it that’s off to me. I think it’s because it’s not work-related? If it were gifts for a client and she was designated wrapper for that, I think it would be okay, but that it goes into personal gifts totally outside the office is odd.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yes, good distinction. If it’s Gloria’s job to buy and package client gifts, totally cool to ask her to package a client gift. But a gift to one’s romantic partner? Bleep no! Bringing in a gift that has nothing to do with work because Gloria just loves wrapping things? (Cringe) Oh honey no. No no no no no no no.

    5. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      If she offered, I think it’s okay. I am the flower-arranger, gift basket arranger, and bow maker for the office, which I think is kind of similar. I used to work in a flower shop so I have some of these skills. I truly enjoy doing it, so I never mind when someone needs it done, and boy I get a lot of accolades. It sounds like the same situation for his co-worker. If he just dropped it on her desk and said, “do this” without asking, that’s a whole other story.

        1. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

          Sometimes, one department asked me to arrange the flowers for their boss, another was for a gift basket that we all contributed to that we were donating for a raffle. However, there was a few times that they sheepishly asked me to do it personally for them. One of my poor co-workers was in tears because she tried and tried and just couldn’t get the flowers to look right for her sick friend. I took it, and made a few minor adjustments and she couldn’t believe the change. I have an area behind my desk that nobody else goes into (a mail room) and that’s where I do these things. If it’s not work related for these people, I do it on my lunch break. I truly don’t mind, I really like doing it. It keeps my creative side alive. If I don’t have time or am too busy though, I also let them know and they all understand. Sometimes that happens.

          1. University Employee*

            To me, this is different. What you do seems more like an experienced trade/skill rather than a simple task that most people can do (or learn how to do) without too much effort. I have very little creative ability and could never prepare a solid gift basket or flower arrangement, but even I can wrap a present- or just buy a gift bag and some tissue paper if its small enough. That’s why it feels weird. It seems more like he is delegating a task that he doesn’t want to do and taking advantage someone who was nice enough to offer to do it for him. I know that might not be the case, but that’s just how it feels.

            1. Lavender Menace*

              I’m not understanding how it is “taking advantage” of someone to accept a skill they have offered you? If I don’t want to do something for someone…I don’t offer.

    6. afiendishthingy*

      no, I’m with you. It’s innocent enough and I get that she likes to do it, but it will likely negatively affect how she’s perceived as a professional.

      Also I don’t think it’s super professional-looking in general for the receptionist to be wrapping presents at the front desk, but maybe that depends on how many outside people are coming into the office.

    7. Crylo Ren*

      Feels a little icky to me. Is the gift for a coworker? If it is, I think I’d be a little more okay with it than if it was a gift for someone unconnected to the office. I’d still probably ask the receptionist a day ahead of time if it was okay, and only then bring the gift in for her to wrap.

    8. Rey*

      It would make me feel icky too. The administrators in my office are fabulous about not asking me as the office secretary to do their personal errands, which I would lump “wrapping a personal present” in with. If the office is planning a Christmas party or giving a present to a long-time client, I think it falls into work duties. Otherwise, I don’t think it’s okay.

      When I hear things like this, I sometimes wonder how the story would be different if the gender was reversed. I.e., if the office receptionist was a male, would it still be okay to ask this, or would it make them uncomfortable? I don’t think the optics are great in this case.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah. I wholeheartedly agree that the gender dynamic is impossible to ignore.

        I’d add that if I knew a male co-worker did that to a female admin, I would put a small note in my mental file (Joe Smith: good at Excel, is at least a little sexist keep an eye on that).

    9. I See Real People*

      If I have a hobby that I enjoy and it’s useful to someone else that I know and they ask because they’re deficient in such a hobby, I’m going to help them if I have time. If they had a hobby in an area in which I am deficient, I would sure ask them…I don’t care what gender they are!

    10. Ann O'Nemity*

      I think one thing that bugs me about this is that the gift is non-work related. Like it wouldn’t be as weird if the gift were for another employee (office shower, anniversary gift, secret Santa, etc).

    11. DaniCalifornia*

      So it’s innocent that she offered and while I feel the icky thing as well I don’t think it’s taking advantage of her. And I agree no one who lets her do it is a horrible person.

      I think it feels icky because he is innocently yet inadvertently contributing to her becoming the default person who does menial things for superiors, men, or others at the office. She may truly love doing it and wouldn’t care if everyone asked. But she’s doing herself a disservice career wise. Because then she’ll be seen as the person who can do menial tasks not the awesome receptionist who knows all the clients well and always make sure her superiors have their reports etc.

    12. Wandering Thoughts...*

      Is it a work gift? If it’s a work gift, that makes sense but if it’s just a gift for a friend or family member, then definitely not!

      It’s funny because I have the opposite problem. I hate gift-wrapping and am horrible at it but my boss, who gives a lot of gifts to clients, constantly asks me to wrap it, and then half the time hates my wrapping job and does it himself. In that case, don’t ask me in the first place when I am obviously horrible at it! Gift-wrapping was not a requirement for this job! (And it’s not a sexist thing since I am his assistant and generally get the gifts together anyway, it’s just funny how often he undoes my wrapping and does it himself, even when he specifically asked me to wrap it.)

      1. Murphy*

        The funny thing is, my husband is good at wrapping gifts! Much better than I am. So he’s fully capable of doing it himself.

        Oh and it wasn’t a work gift. If it was, that would be fine.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          In this case, he is good at wrapping and it’s not a work gift, my vote is no. But I have a thing about pawning my work off on to someone else, that’s my bias. I don’t believe that her volunteering makes the situation better some how.

          And it kind of baffles me. Isn’t it more effort to bring the item, wrap, tape and ribbon to work, then remember to get it and carry it back out to the car? And then you have to be even more careful with it so as not to wreck the wrap. To me it would be much simpler to wrap it at home and set it in the corner where it won’t get banged up until it’s time to deliver the present.

    13. Tuxedo Cat*

      Was the gift for someone in the office? I think that makes it slightly more palatable if the recipient is an employee or a customer.

      If it’s for someone who has nothing to do with the office, I think it’s icky.

    14. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      If she volunteered, I don’t really see the problem.

      If this was ALL she was good at and only mediocre at her job, maybe I could see where this would be a disservice. But I don’t see why she can’t be considered awesome at her job and awesome at her hobby.

      And I might be biased here as for years my family had a personal paper store so we had to be able to wrap presents beautifully. People ask my mom and me ALL THE TIME to wrap presents. It hasn’t hurt either of us professionally. If anything, my mom is known as the department head who also wraps amazing gifts. I’m not a supervisor or anything, haven’t been here long enough, but I’ve been given more responsibility. And the conversation never starts with “Here’s WDP ask her if you need anything gift wrapped.” It’s “Here’s WDP, if you have any questions about Llama Baton Twirling she’s your go to!”

    15. Observer*

      You’re not off base for yourself, but for your husband you are. What I mean is, I understand why you would not take her up on the offer. But your husband is not wrong to do so, and what he is doing is not icky. And while it’s true that she may not be doing herself any professional favors, unless your husband has the kind of relationship where he could do some informal mentoring and knows what her goals are, etc. it’s not his place to decide for her how to deal with that. (As a mentor, it might be wise to give her a heads up.)

      1. Specialk9*

        Enh it’s pretty icky. I would think less of her husband if I found out they were pulling some 1950s crap like that.

        1. Lavender Menace*

          It’s not inherently 1950s for a woman to wrap gifts for a man. It is if he someone expected that, but she offered to do it.

          This is not directed at you, but it’s starting to grate on me (in my male-dominated profession) that people feel I am “supposed” to exhibit stereotypically masculine behaviors to get ahead and that I have to hide or downplay the things I like that are more stereotypically feminine.

    16. Hush42*

      I think it depends on the person. I have one co-worker who LOVES to wrap gifts. It is legitimately one of her favorite things to do. During the holidays shes asks coworkers (only the ones she’s close with) if she can wrap their gifts. Our boss usually takes her up on it because he hates wrapping gifts and is not very good at it. In this case I think it’s fine but in your husbands case I guess it would depend on if the receptionists offer was “I LOVE wrapping gifts and would be happy to wrap any gifts you need wrapped” or “I don’t mind wrapping gifts, if you really need it done I could do it”.

      1. Murphy*

        He brings in food to the office sometimes, though it’s to share with everyone and not for her in particular.

    18. Sunflower*

      She likes it, she’s good at it, and she offered to do it. What’s the problem? If I were her I’d feel insulted if someone refused to let me do a hobby of mine because it “might” look icky. Who the heck cares?

    19. Carnaxide*

      I find that a bit icky but I’m sensitive to these types of things, being a support person and having people assume I can do crafts and things for events… not my thing!

    20. ChachkisGalore*

      How is the company’s attitude/culture as whole, regarding women (or support staff/admin/reception roles)?

      If the company is otherwise doing well on this front then I’d say no harm, no foul. She offered and likes to do it, he appreciates her effort. All is well.

      However, if the company already has some issues with these attitudes, then yeah I would agree that it’s doing her a disservice and sort of reinforcing that notion – no matter how innocent the offer/taking up of that offer is.

      I say this as someone who left an admin role (and said explicitly in my exit interview that I was leaving because) I did not sign up be a Mad Men-esque secretary. It was just an entire overarching attitude that admins could not possibly understand anything related to the actual business, and that the only thing an admin could understand is how to transfer a phone call or what slots are empty on a calendar. In that place I think it would be great for more men to be aware of the issue and to try to actively change the culture (or pointedly stay away from things that reinforced it). That attitude isn’t present in my current company so I don’t really feel as worried about small/innocent things reinforcing it.

      1. Specialk9*

        I don’t actually believe there there are people-filled workplaces that are insulated from the larger culture. And our larger culture has a huge problem with sexism (among other isms). It’s hard to imagine a place in which implicit bias like this wouldn’t be a problem.

        1. ChachkisGalore*

          Uhhh… I had worked at one place that treated me like an idiot simply because my title was “administrative assistant” and another one that treated me like a valued member of the team because my title was receptionist.

          So yes, people filled institutions, can absolutely fall in different places on the spectrum of “how do we treat women/people in traditionally women filled roles”.

          Some institutions as a whole are aware of these biases/historical dynamics and actively foster a culture that does not condone it. Others do not and let it run rampant or actively promote it.

          1. Specialk9*

            That wasn’t my point. I realize that workplaces can be different, and one place as a whole treat people better/worse in various ways.

            I’m saying that being on a good end of a particular spectrum isn’t enough to get away with doing something that has a troubling history of being connected to a big old -Ism.

            So for example, a workplace might have half the managers being women, to the top, but it still isn’t advisable to do things that reek of sexism — like a man bringing in a non-work gift and wrapping paper in to work, in order to have a female admin wrap it for him.

            Or in a workplace in which there are a good number of managers of color, someone still shouldn’t ask to touch a black woman’s hair.

            Because even if that workplace is better than most in that area, everyone working there has gotten toxic messaging from the broader culture, and many people still have hidden cuts and bruises (metaphorically).

    21. LGC*

      So I read everything, and…

      …my initial take was that while I could see your position really clearly, if it’s a one off thing and she offered, it’s fine.

      After reading the other replies, I have to add in that she cannot feel compelled to offer. And as such, it’s probably not a good idea for your husband to accept – there’s no way that he can guarantee that she doesn’t feel like she has to do this as part of her job, even if it isn’t.

      That said, tell me if I’m reading way too much into your post, but I get the idea that you think that his accepting that offer means he thinks less of her. I really disagree with that framing – I don’t know your husband, obviously, but from what you’ve said it doesn’t seem like he sees her as a handservant. There are some problematic things I saw, like his dismissal of her workload (although she could actually be not busy!). But maybe I’m overly optimistic, but I’d like to think he respects her as a professional in general, and just overstepped a boundary in this case.

      1. Murphy*

        I don’t think that he thinks less of her specifically, because he’s not like that. But I don’t think he even thought of the fact that this kind of thing could cause people to think less of her in general, because he seemed really surprised when I pointed it out.

        1. LGC*

          …you know, on one hand, I really want to push back on that – because to me, that feels a bit like you’re concerned about things way out of his control. You’re saying (essentially) that there’s a possibility that someone in the office could think it’s appropriate for her to do other menial tasks because she offered to do your husband a personal favor, and has offered to do personal favors for other employees at his workplace. And my opinion of that is that if anyone thinks that, it reflects far more on their misogynistic and antiquated viewpoints than it does on the receptionist or your husband taking her up on her offer.

          On the other hand, you just reminded me of a dynamic at my job: if my team lead is out and I forget to make coffee (the coffee maker is hers and by her desk, and our desks are on opposite sides of the office, and also I am horribly scatterbrained), I start getting questioned about it – like my primary job is making coffee. (I’m a supervisor. I’m not opposed to making coffee, it’s just that a lot of the time I have five other things that are more important at the moment.) So, yeah, in practice people do sometimes take “menial” tasks for granted.

          (I could probably write another comment about the gender dynamics at play here, but I will say that I’m getting better at making coffee before she comes in – three days of the week I try to get in earlier than she does (the other two I start later), so I’ve been trying to start the coffee when I get in.)

        1. LGC*

          I don’t think that was Murphy’s issue, though – she (?) was saying that she thought the admin wrapping her husband’s gift for him would reflect poorly on the admin, if I’m reading her replies correctly.

          For what it’s worth, I kind of agree with you – without the context we have here, I’d see her husband as being very inappropriate. (With the context, I think it’s borderline inappropriate, just because of the power dynamics. If he wasn’t in a superior relationship, I’d be fine with it full stop.)

    22. Nacho*

      Yeah, that feels really weird, not just from a sexist PoV, but from a who the hell asks their receptionist to do that kind of thing PoV?

    23. Operational Chaos*

      I think a lot of us would get a cringe vibe off that. I agree that if she’s offering, that muddies the ethics a bit. However, if he does some tit for tat, say buying her a lunch or a coffee as a thank you for the effort, I think that would balance things more.

    24. Emoly19*

      My question is would he ask that same favor/help from the receptionist if it was a man?
      I think its a little icky especially if its gifts for non-work related items.
      Maybe she could still wrap the gift but he could bring her coffee/breakfast or something as a thank you for taking time out of the day to work on it.

  9. Anonymous404*

    Hi! I am fairly new to the work world and have started going to networking events. How often do I need to keep in touch with people I meet at these events for potential job opportunities? I am trying to move on from where I am, and found out that the industry I am in is super small and niche and the best way to get a new position is through connections.

    Thank you!

    1. Kathleen_A*

      The thing about networking is that it’s generally at its most useful if you don’t use it *just* for job searching. You have to find ways to connect with people that don’t involve only “I want a new job – can you help me?”

      Since you’re already in or nearly in job-hunting mode, that makes it pretty tricky. And of course what makes it trickier is that your supervisors are probably involved in your same “super small and niche” network. I personally can’t think of a good and subtle way for you to start asking about jobs that won’t get back to your superiors.

      What exactly are you hoping for from these connections?

      1. Anonymous404*

        So I think I messed up based on this response. I went to this event and kind of said oh I’m here to build relationships and then when people asked who I work for, I said I’m currently working for a small company that has no room for growth and am looking for new opportunities. I realize now that that sounded probably bad, but I was genuine in trying to get to know people. I don’t want people to feel used at all, and I would like a mentor or two. I did send out a thanks for talking with me email to everyone I met, and said that I am interested in keeping in touch and learning more about the industry and their journey into it. The company I work for is in education, but my position is more hospitality-like, so my bosses actually have no idea about this organization that I became a part of and I doubt anyone knows of them considering I work for a small 4 person company. Is it too late to salvage some of these relationships? I have met a couple of people who I have been texting and learning from, would it be too late to reach out about coffee? I genuinely love people and am looking to make friends anyway. Also, thank you for your response!

        1. Lavender Menace*

          That’s not bad. Networking events that are branded as such are pretty blatantly for people who are looking for professional connections, often in connection with looking for new opportunities. I don’t think it’s a faux pas to be honest with the fact that you are looking for something new. I often go to networking events (especially those held for students or early career professionals) looking to help people who are looking for an inroad into my career field.

    2. uranus wars*

      yes, what Kathleen A said! I remember presenting once and off the cuff I answered someone during Q&A that they should be “looking at networking as a way to meet new people and develop relationships. The business/job/opportunity/support will come as a result. Only attending events/networking when you are searching for something (a sale, a job) almost never garners the results you are looking for.”

      I actually wrote it down as a reminder to myself when I start feeling reclusive.

      1. Anonymous404*

        Thank you for this! I wish I had asked my question before I went, but I think I may have already turned some people off. I hope it’s not too late to salvage the relationships, I do genuinely want to get to know these people and build relationships. I will be writing this down for future reference :)

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      There’s NO hard and fast rule for this.

      The best way to do this sort of thing is to try to develop relationships with people. Genuine, honest to goodness, relationships. So, pick the three people you liked the most from the event you went to an invite them to lunch/coffee.

      Do not mention you are looking for a job. Do try to get to know them. Once you have a relationship, people may be willing to help you, but you don’t want people to feel used. And you also, I hope, don’t want to just use people.

      1. Anonymous404*

        Thank you for your response. Like I mentioned above, you are so right that I do not want to use people! I hope I didn’t mess up too badly, I did unfortunately mention that I was job searching when I went, but now I know better. I just hope I didn’t mess up my reputation completely.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          As others have mentioned, that doesn’t sound too bad. An event labeled as a “networking event” is frequently used for job hunting, so I don’t think what you did was outside the pale or anything. At events with other purposes (e.g., workshops and conferences and so on), you do need to be more subtle. But here, a little job searching isn’t out of line. Just keep in light when you follow up and it should be OK.

  10. ChachkisGalore*

    Any advice on taking over work from a remaining (like they didn’t leave the co., you’re just taking over some of their responsibilities) coworker without stepping on their toes in the process?

    I’m taking over some responsibilities from a co-worker (basically a promotion for me – yeah! – I’m taking on some of Sr. Co-worker’s stuff and she’s taking on other work). The thing I’m running into is that I want to change the process or how I do some of this work. It’s one part purely preference type stuff, which I’d have no problem quietly changing and just doing my thing. However some of it is beyond preference. This co-worker’s been doing this for 10yrs, and her reasoning for a lot of her processes is “well that’s how it’s always been done”.

    I don’t discount her experience, but as an ex. I brought up a process that I thought was unnecessary and asked her about it. She said that’s how it’s always been done. I cited the specific legal regulation that I thought supported the idea that this process is unnecessary (we’re legal adjacent so a lot of this is fairly black&white). She just repeated that this is how it’s always been done. So I went to our boss and said “hey, I’d like to change this, here’s my reasoning, are you ok with that?”. He researched it and was ok with it.

    I’m not sure how to institute (or just recommend instituting) changes without looking and feeling like I’m going behind her back/over her head. Any recommendations for this type of situation? Anything I suggest is carefully researched – I’m not just trying to change stuff willy-nilly and while she had 10yrs of experience, it’s all at once place, whereas I have five years of experience but in a couple of different environments to I’ve been exposed to different processses.

    1. Murphy*

      Are you in a position where you have to ask for her opinion? I understand why you’d like to get her opinions on some things and how she might be a good resource, but if you don’t have to go through her, I wouldn’t. No reasonable person would mind you changing some processes once you take them over.

      I was in a similar position, but that person was my boss for a while when I took over some of her former duties. Then she switched to another department and I took over some more of her duties. As far as I know, she never minded the things that I changed, and I know she agreed with some of them.

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        I guess that’s the tricky part. We’re an informal, small dept. She’s definitely senior to me (ie – I’m an associate, she’s a Sr. Associate), but we both report to the same person (the head of the dept.).

        I’ll be responsible for this stuff going forward, but she sits right next to me and generally needs to be kept in the loop of any changes made because a.) employees from outside the dept still go to her about this stuff (I’ve already asked her to just send them to me directly, but I think she thinks she’s being helpful – this I know I can handle with a more direct convo) and b.) she’ll still probably take care of some of the stuff when I’m out of the office.

        It just feels a bit weird to sort of dictate new workflows to the person who’s been responsible for it for so long. Again small preference stuff would be no big deal, and I’d just expect her to be a reasonable adult about it but some it really is closer to “you’ve been doing this wrong for who knows how long, so now we’re doing it this way”. Not that I would ever, ever say that! It is sort of the subtext to it.

        1. Murphy*

          Ah, yeah. That makes sense.

          Can you frame it as “I’ve found it’s easier for me to do X instead of Y?” I don’t know if that would make sense contextually with what you’re doing. Obviously it wouldn’t make sense if it was due to a law change like you mention below.

    2. OperaArt*

      Do you have to get her permission to make changes? Will she immediately know if you make changes? Be as diplomatic as necessary, and do what you think is best. This is your work now, not hers.

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        Any advice on the diplomatic part? I don’t need to get her permission to change stuff (just have to get boss’s approval – on anything big, not the small preference stuff), but I do need to inform her of changes.

        Another example: a law changed at some point while she was in charge of this stuff and our policy wasn’t updated to reflect that. I brought it up to boss, he agreed, so I rewrote the policy and have adjusted the workflow. So now I do have to inform her of the workflow change. To external depts I’d explain “hey, there was change to the law so now we need to do x”, but it feels a little catty to say that to her when it’s specifically our job to ensure that our policies reflect current laws.

        Maybe I should just stick with “hey, we’re doing x now” and if she asks why then mention the law change as nuetrally as possible? I’m just afraid it’s going to turn into a “well why change it, that’s how it’s always been done” and then me being stuck pointing out that it’s been done incorrectly up until now.

        1. Ashley*

          If you been doing this more months a think a list of items might be helpful and do a review update kind of meeting with her and your boss. When suggesting it make the meeting about updating policies and just explain for ‘recent’ changes in the law and increased efficiency. I feel your pain on ‘this is how it has always been done’. Rarely is that a good reason to not being open to change.

        2. Anon Pixie*

          I think the last part of your comment is the best you’re going to be able to do — and if she pushes back, then you’ll just need to be “doing y is no longer legal” and if she does y, then you need to loop in boss.

        3. Susan*

          I don’t see anything catty in saying to the co-worker the same line you would say to external departments.

          I wouldn’t overthink it. You are taking on the work, and you are going to do it in the way that works best. That’s it. Her reaction is hers to manage, and if it becomes too big a deal, it’s up to you to raise it as an issue to her boss.

    3. Blue*

      Since the work is totally yours now and your boss is supportive, I think you’re fine as long as you don’t run around bad-mouthing your coworker. If you’re worried about breaking the news, maybe use your boss as a shield? When I started my last job, I found myself in a similar situation, and when we announced the new process, I said something like, “[Boss and I] decided to use this moment of transition as an opportunity to reevaluate the process, and Boss has given me a green light to implement some changes.”

      I later handed off some of my processing tasks, and I was so happy to ditch it, I couldn’t have cared less about how they handled it moving forward, ha.

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        Oh I really like this! I’m definitely going to drop boss’s name when I do have to bring up any changes to her directly.

        She’s been looking to get rid of this work – so I’m hoping she’ll just go your route and be glad to be rid of it! I’m just really excited to have the opportunity to institute/suggest some of this stuff (and pretty passionate about what is usually considered a very dry subject), so I want to make sure I don’t lose sight of maintaining a positive relationship with this co-worker.

    4. Kathenus*

      A couple of thoughts on this from your question, and from the comments thus far and your responses. Some of this comes from having been someone coming in to new places and being in a similar position – sometimes the person is still there sometimes not, but the potential minefield can be kind of similar in both situations; I’ve also recently seen a new person come in to my organization and run into some significant pushback from some changes they are looking to make and we’ve had a few discussions about the situation.

      So, thought one is to pick your battles and make changes in a more incremental way versus as a wholesale thing. You may identify ten things you’d like to change, and all may be valid changes, but if you try to do all ten at once it may be perceived in a more negative way than if you did two now, a few more in six months, the rest next year or something like this. Phase them in over time.

      Thought two, you mentioned some are due to changes in the law, so these might be a priority; they’re also easier to explain without it being just wanting to change the way she did it. As was mentioned below, the explanation of ‘this change was implemented due to a modification in the law’ is hard for her to push back on or hopefully feel threatened/disrespected/etc. by.

      Lastly, to tie the above together, you can prioritize by things that are easier/less threatening, have an external motivator (like a law change), or that you feel more strongly about or that would have the greatest impact. But being able to step back and realize that to achieve your goals you want to both make more efficient processes and get as much support and buy-in as possible, taking it at a more step-by-step pace could help in the long run. Good luck!

  11. Jolly Jaffa Cake*

    How concerned should I be about my lack of a bachelor’s degree keeping me from finding a new job? I have an associate’s degree and that’s it. I’ve worked as an administrative assistant since I was 17, so I’ve racked up 19 years of experience. I’d like to think that counts for something but I worry that now employers consider having a bachelor’s degree to be a minimum requirement for even considering an applicant.

    For the past year I’ve been working in a new position at the same company where I’ve worked for 13 years. I’m technically in a management role although I only manage my assistant. It’s a small company so there’s only one other office staff member who my boss manages. I handle the administrative tasks of the company from day-to-day functionality to keeping the company’s certifications, memberships, and contracts current. However, if I were to start job hunting I’d be fine with taking a basic administrative job since I know I got lucky with the internal promotion here. I doubt any other company would accept an external candidate without a degree for such an advanced role. Even with lowering my expectations, I worry that I’m now competing with an entire younger generation of people who all have college degrees so my application will be rejected sight unseen.

    Going back to school is an option but it’s really not one I relish. To be honest, I think I got burned out in high school with all of the AP classes and pressure for perfection from my mom. By the time I graduated I was ready to be done with school. I managed two years at community college but my plan to transfer to a four-year school fell by the wayside. I started working as an administrative assistant the summer after I graduated from high school and I found I have an aptitude for it and truly enjoy the work. I know many years have passed since I was that kid burned out on school but I still cringe and get stressed out when I think about going back to school simply so I can look better on paper. I could afford it now but it would still be a financial sacrifice at a time when I’m approaching 40 and want to start enjoying life by traveling and going out to nice restaurants, all things I’ve held off on doing because I’ve been busy saving for a house, going through a divorce, and then getting back on my feet financially. I’ve only worked for two companies so I’m inexperienced when it comes to job searching and I feel I lucked out nabbing my current job at a time when they were struggling to find someone qualified. In that case my experience won out over the lack of a degree but times have changed since 2005 and the market is no doubt full of candidates with degrees. Do I have to bite the bullet and get a degree before I even consider job searching? Or does experience still count for something?

    1. Baby Fishmouth*

      I think experience definitely counts for something, but the truth of the matter is that there are a LOT of employers out there who will put ‘4 year bachelor’s’ as a requirement as a default. And while the hiring manager might look at your resume and see that your experience could trump a degree, the chances are your resume might not even make it into their hands without the degree. Applicant Management Systems, or a choosy HR person, might filter it out before it gets to the Hiring Manager.
      I don’t think you need a degree at all, but just be aware that you may have a harder time getting your resume seen than you would if you had one.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah, it’s unfortunate but a lot of jobs put in education requirements without thinking them through well.

    2. Mombi's Severed Head*

      If I were hiring for an administrative position, I would be much more impressed with 19 years of experience than a bachelors degree. But I think you’re discounting yourself by thinking you need to settle for a basic administrative position. You have 19 years of experience! You’ve been in a management role for a year! And you’ve got longevity at two jobs, which speaks loads about the skills and value you bring to the table.

      1. Jolly Jaffa Cake*

        Thank you! I’m hoping this is the prevalent attitude. Also thanks for the ego boost. I hope I can do better than basic admin work so your words are encouraging

      2. Luna123*

        Yes, this is what I was going to say! You have LOADS of both longevity AND experience, and that is going to look fantastic to potential bosses!

      3. JessicaTate*

        Ditto. I’d hire you in a heartbeat. All that experience is so much more valuable. And when you said you “truly enjoy the work,” you totally had me. I think you’d be so much more valuable to an employer than someone with a BA that’s, essentially, just using it as a foot-in-the-door job. You’re skilled, like the work, and likely to stick around. That’s not an easy candidate to find.

        Those electronic screener questions could be a hang up, but only if places have said that a BA is a requirement, rather than “or equivalent experience.” Hopefully places you’d like to work will think more carefully than that.

        1. Jolly Jaffa Cake*

          Thank you! I think you hit on a good point that I should be sure to mention IF I get in for an interview: I am not looking to move up or move on. I am happy with administrative work and will happily continue in the same job until I’m old and grey(er). I don’t have enough of an ego to say, “Well, if they don’t want me then I don’t want them!” but I agree that I’d probably be happier working somewhere where they take experience into consideration.

    3. Brookalynne*

      My husband never completed his bachelor’s degree and has been fine without it. My friend also didn’t complete hers, but managed to rack up several years in a Director-level position. She applied for a new Director-level job, went through the interview processes, was offered the job, and then when she went in to fill out paperwork, they realized she hadn’t finished the degree and rescinded the offer. She never lied about having completed it, and they never asked her about her education during the interviews. So, in some cases it matters and in some cases it doesn’t.

      1. Jolly Jaffa Cake*

        Wow, that stinks for your friend! I hope she wasn’t too disheartened by the experience. Good to hear about it being a non-issue for your husband.

    4. Baby Fishmouth*

      Honestly, I don’t know if the lack of degree will stop you from getting a job once your resume is seen by the hiring manager (that experience sounds extensive!). But it may make it harder for your resume to get seen. Applicant Management Systems or a choosy HR person could filter your resume out early in the process. I don’t imagine you’ll have too much trouble getting a job, but be aware that could happen. And if you’re planning on moving up the ranks, it *could* hinder you at some point, although what point that is just depends on the company.

      1. Jolly Jaffa Cake*

        Yes, my application being rejected without consideration is a concern of mine. I bet you’re right about some companies/systems rejecting me at that early stage. Oh well, hopefully there’s something out there. I don’t have any ambition to move up from an administrative-type role, though, so further opportunities aren’t something I’m worried about.

      2. BRR*

        I was going to say something similar. A lot of ATS require you to choose from a limited number of options and it could automatically disqualify you, which is dumb because most of the time who cares about college degrees when you have 19 years experience.

      3. Llama Wrangler*

        This won’t work in all cases or with all companies, but if you have a personal connection where you’re trying to get hired, you can ask if you can send in the materials directly to the hiring manager. They may be able to flag your application in the system, or even review the application without it going through the system.

    5. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      If you plan on continuing to move up in your present company, I would say that not having a bachelor’s degree might not hurt your chances (after all, you’ve worked there for 13 years, they know your work, etc.). However, if you ever want to go to another company, the fact that you don’t have a bachelor’s degree MIGHT hurt your chances. In most of the ads for admin assistants, project coordinators and the like, they ask for a bachelor’s degree. I had a co-worker who was a VP. He was very knowledgeable in our field and was an all around great worker. An outside recruiter reached out to him about a VP position in another company. My colleague said that when the recruiter found out he did not have a Bachelor’s Degree, he stopped the conversation in it’s tracks and told him, that he couldn’t even consider him for the position being offered because he had no Bachelor’s Degree.

    6. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I agree with Mombi.

      If you’re applying for basic level positions, you may not be getting interviewed because they assume you are over qualified. I think 19 experience counts more than a degree — unless it’s in a field like academia, law or medicine; then degrees count a lot. If you don’t want to get a degree just for the sake of having one, is there a certification course you could take in your specific industry that wouldn’t feel so burdensome and useless?

    7. Arjay*

      Wow, I feel like I could have written this, right down to the perfectionist mom…

      I had 17 years with one company with fairly regular advancementm and now have 10 years in at my current company, so I’m doing all right.

      But the lack of a BA absolutely holds me back from a lot of applications or thinking about moving companies, just because I can’t tick that box. Even here when I was up for a level promotion, they had to alter the internal job description to something like “AA required, BA preferred” so I’d be qualified to continue to do the job I was doing.

      1. Jolly Jaffa Cake*

        That sounds like a frustrating and slightly ridiculous situation! And it just goes to show you that a degree is absolutely not needed to accomplish so many jobs, but companies do seem to be meaning more and more towards requiring one. I wonder if situations like that make them question their requirements. Probably not.

        Mind if I ask why you haven’t been tempted to go to school to get that degree? If this is too nosy of a question I understand!

        1. Arjay*

          Not at all. I did go back to get my AA during that first long stint, and planned to get the BA. But then I got married, had other faimly stuff going on, and I have a lot of responsibility (i.e., lots of hours) in this job. So basically, life has gotten in the way of school as a priority.

    8. Anon for anonymity's sake*

      This isn’t exactly what you asked, but as a professional with 17 years experience and no degree (HS Diploma only) I wanted to chime in. I would recommend looking into title insurance/real estate/banking fields. I’m in title insurance, and in most regions employers won’t require more than a H.S. Diploma because there is no degree relevant to the field (except maybe law – and that is definitely not expected). It is the perfect industry to work your way up in, because as you gain on the job experience, that experience supersedes the need for a degree if/as you move into management. It’s a field that is constantly needing new employees because a lot of the existing ones are nearing retirement, and there’s never been a huge recruiting effort industry-wide. (Though we need one.)

      1. whatshername*

        I want to second this. I never ended up getting a bachelors or an associates degree (although I have five years of college under my belt) and after leaving school I lucked into a position at a law firm that handled foreclosures. I eventually ended up running their title department and my career has taken off since then (I do title work for a prominent industry company).

        There are so, so many career opportunities in the title/property insurance and real estate fields, and none of them require a degree, unless you want to go into property law. Having a paralegal degree/certification isn’t unheard of, and if you want to eventually be a realtor there’s certification for that. But neither of those is required, or even widespread.

        I will say it’s a fast-paced, high-pressure industry, and I’ve worked with some absolutely insane people – but I really enjoy it.

      2. Jolly Jaffa Cake*

        Interesting! That’s not a field I’d even considered but it sounds like it would be interesting work that would keep me happily engaged. That’s certainly something I’ll look into now. Thanks!

      3. Christy*

        I work in title insurance and making sure I have at least a bachelor’s degree was part of the background check

    9. OhGee*

      Speaking exclusively to the earning a bachelor’s part: In my experience (it seems like we’re pretty close to the same age), college was easier than high school. I also took lots of AP classes — and then I went to a communications college where I was astonished to learn that the workload and expectations were far less than what I’d grown accustomed to as a busy, high achieving high school student. I wonder if, now that you’re an adult (and hopefully removed from your mom’s pressures as a result), you might enjoy school a lot more? Have you considered taking one class, just to see how it feels now? You may feel a lot more excited this time around, and if that’s the case, you might as well find an affordable way to earn a bachelor’s that fits in with your life — it certainly won’t hurt your future employment opportunities.

      1. Jolly Jaffa Cake*

        Very good point! I hadn’t thought to try dipping my toe back in to see how I feel so I appreciate your suggestion. Although one of my biggest problems with community college was being bored by how easy the classes were. It was a bit of a shock after my academically advanced high school experience. I preferred to use my time out of work reading up on topics that interested me, learning more about life and the world that way. Going to school just to get a degree to continue doing the work I was already doing adeptly seemed like a waste of time and money. I may have to get off of my high horse and consider going back to school if this proves to be an obstacle, though. Thanks for the idea!

        1. OhGee*

          Sure! And that’s fair – I was definitely a very average college student in part because I wasn’t that challenged (I was also enjoying being ‘independent’ for the first time, too). I hope you can find the right curricular challenge. Good luck!

        2. Gumby*

          “Going to school just to get a degree to continue doing the work I was already doing adeptly seemed like a waste of time and money.”

          One of the best parts about college (as opposed to high school) is that you can study primarily the topics that interest you. One of my classmates basically majored in science fiction. (I mean, not entirely because it was something about visions of the future and the development of technology and societal changes and blah. It was cool though.) So maybe there is something that you find fascinating now. It doesn’t even need to be particularly related to your work. At this point you’d be getting the degree to show you can and to prevent the knee-jerk “no degree? not qualified” thing so you might as well study something that you enjoy.

    10. Ender*

      Have you looked at job advertisements yet? Look at what is actually being requested for the types of roles you want before you assume a degree will be needed. Frankly I don’t see why a degree would be a requirement for an administrative assistant anyway it’s not like being a doctor or an engineer where you need to be qualified to do the work.

      1. Jolly Jaffa Cake*

        It seems to be a mix of, “Bachelor’s degree preferred,” “Bachelor’s degree or associate’s degree required,” and a few, “Bachelor’s degree or equivalent experience.” Which still leaves me wondering if they’ll disqualify my application out of hand if 10 other candidates come along who do have bachelor’s degrees. I was hoping to get a better idea from AAM readers who might have a little more inside experience about what hiring managers are really looking at.

        1. Anon for this*

          I hire for these kinds of positions, and we usually have the “or equivalent experience” verbiage – and I can tell you, if you write a hell of a cover letter talking about your experience, I won’t blink an eye at your degree status. I read cover letters before I even look at resumes – I find that most of what I need to know is actually there.

        2. Ender*

          It seems to me you meet all those requirements. you have an associates degree, preferred doesn’t mean required, and you have equivalent experience. Anon is right, your cover letter will be key here. Spend a bit of time in the archives learning to write a great cover letter and you’ll save yourself 2 years of studying.

    11. Kat in VA*

      I’m in the same boat – started working as an admin assistant/receptionist at 17 and worked my way up to C-suite (CEOs, CFO, CTO, All The C Peoples™) executive assistant over my career. My parents split up in my senior year, and in all the kerfuffle, I got a bit lost in the shuffle. My grades weren’t good enough for a scholarship and I didn’t really want to go back to school for another four years for a degree in I Didn’t Even Know What. So I worked instead.

      However, I’m older than you – 47 – and I have a gap of 20 years raising a family of four kids – but where I worked as a remote EA and did transcriptionist work. I don’t have a degree either. Now that they’re older, I’d like to go back to work full-time. You can only clean so much house for so long.

      I don’t know how many job offers I’ve applied to where it says “Bachelor’s degree REQUIRED” (caps included, sometimes in bold in case you missed their point). I apply anyway because hey – I have a loooot of experience taking care of C-suites. I can say with assurance I do not get contacted by those employers.

      So, nearly 50, no degree, gap in employment, AND I have a speech impairment where I can sound anywhere from somewhat hoarse to literally strangling on my words and work has been hard to come by. I get a lot of phone screens that go no further, or (if I’m able to explain the impairment), F2F interviews that don’t go much further. Usually it’s a case of “Always the bridesmaid, never the bride” when it comes to F2F…if they don’t ghost me, which is the subject of an ENTIRE other rant.

      I won’t say how often I see interviewers’ faces literally fall when they see me. Yes, I’m 47, and yes, I’m pretty sure I look about 47. I’m polished and professional (suit and heels in modern cut) but I can’t hide that yes, I’m definitely not 25 any more.

      However, my last contract job which happened to be my first foray back into full time work, my VP loved me so much he tried to move heaven and earth to find a position for me ANYWHERE in the company, but no dice because of headcount/budget. And he raves enthusiastically about me to whomever calls – but I have to get far enough for the reference-calling stage for him to do that.

      *sigh*

      I just keep plugging along!

      1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

        Sounds like whoever hires you will be fortunate, indeed! Best of luck! (Although if you’re going back to work because you’re bored, why not get that degree first? It sounds like it should be your turn to be CFO!)

    12. Hamburke*

      Don’t discount yourself! Experience counts for a lot as an admin!

      I have a master’s degree (mostly unrelated – secondary education) and found it hard to find an admin job when I wanted something flexible after being home with kids. I had admin jobs in high school and college that I got easily so it was weird to struggle. I did eventually find something and it wouldn’t matter if I had a degree or not – I’m literally the only person in the office with a degree.

      Hubby is in IT. Similarly, he does not have a degree but has 20+ years of professional experience. I know it kept him out of a few jobs where the recuiters (but not necessarily hiring manager) place a high value on a degree but not on the certifications and experience and reputation. Most jobs he’s gotten by word of mouth.

  12. Anon Today*

    I confirmed that I’m six weeks pregnant with my first child and am wondering at what point other women told their employers? I plan to wait until I’m basically showing.

    Also, my husband and I decided to stay on our respective employers’ health insurance plans individually. Currently, I’m on a high deductible health insurance plan, which has worked out well for me as I only going to the doctors for my regular check-ups. My organization contributes quite a sum annually into our HSA accounts, and I have accrued enough to completely take care of my deductible as a single person. I’d like to stay on the high deductible plan, but I know it’s hard to know how often kids will need medical care. The organization contributes double the amount into HSA for families. The new family contribution amount, plus what I already have in the account equals the deductible for families, and I’ll be able to contribute extra to set me up for the following year.

    What are some considerations my husband and I need to consider when deciding on a health care plan? How did you make this decision? I’m pretty sure we’re going to put the child on my insurance.

    1. Friday Anon*

      I am currently 12 weeks pregnant and I am waiting until the absolute last minute to tell anyone at work. I am up for a promotion in December and I don’t want to risk it. Mainly because the accompanying raise would almost off-set impending childcare costs.

      1. georgina*

        Are you trying to wait until you’re eight months pregnant to tell anyone? That seems . . . challenging.

    2. Murphy*

      Congrats! I waited until early second trimester to tell my boss. It didn’t get out to the office as a whole until a bit later. It’s good for your boss to hear it from you, rather than someone else.

      My husband is on a HD plan with his employer, and I’m on a more expensive plan at my employer. It’s free for me, but it’s more expensive to add a child. We put her on my plan because we figured that we didn’t know what she might need. She’s been healthy for the most part, but under this plan all of her regular checkups/vaccines (of which there are a lot in the first year!) are completely covered, and even when she’s sick a regular doctor’s visit is pretty cheap.

    3. Emi.*

      I announced not too long after 12 weeks and got a lot of “I knew it!”, so that was awkward. I suspect that people will guess before you’re properly showing.

      Apart from making sure you have coverage where you want to deliver and take your baby to the pediatrician, I would try to suss out how much you’ll spend on prenatal care and L&D. It may be worth going for a plan with a lower deductible. (On my plan, for instance, ultrasounds are not covered like checkups, which I had thought they would be, boo.)

      Congratulations!!

      1. Murphy*

        Yeah, some people may figure it out. The office gossip (who isn’t even someone I talked to at all) was apparently going around asking people if they thought I’d gained weight and if I might be pregnant. I didn’t even gain that much weight, so she must have been watching me awfully closely…

        1. Emi.*

          One of my coworkers said she had multiple times been on the point of just coming into my office and congratulating me, but she thought it might be weird to do that. (Oh, ya think?)

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      Congratulations! I planned to wait until I entered my second trimester with both – about week 13. Unfortunately, I had to run to catch a plane at Newark with my boss and other colleagues during week 8 of my second pregnancy and almost died (figuratively.) She was worried something was really wrong with me so I told her. It was fine.

      I stayed on my HSA during my pregnancy and we added our kids to my husband’s plan since his had better coverage for a cheaper price. We also did the childcare deduction so be sure to explore that option as well.

    5. Doug Judy*

      I told basically at 6/8 weeks. For one, we had been trying for years for our second child, and I was just so excited. I am terrible at hiding things like that. Second I had worked in that department for 7 years, and had a good relationship with my boss/coworker. Lastly, I had several appointments early on and needed time off.

      Ultimately there is no right or wrong, do what you feel comfortable with.

    6. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I always had to tell early because of how severe my morning sickness was. Ideally, I’d have liked to have waited until 12 weeks or so, possibly later.

      As far as insurance, I’ve never had as good of coverage offered as what my husband’s company offers, so that part was a non-issue. It’s been awhile since I’ve had babies (youngest is 13), but they go several times during the first year (assuming you are in the US) for regular checkups, then I want to say 18 months, and then annually starting at 2 years. Of course, that’s just well-child checkups. You may want to check on each insurance plan and see how vaccinations are covered. We had quite the sticker shock at how much those cost us out of pocket.

    7. Mockingjay*

      TL;DR: For either policy, find out 1) date coverage is implemented for the child (day of birth, 1st of the following month, etc.), 2) if you have selected a pediatrician or family doctor, which insurance policy they accept and how they do billing, 3) what each policy covers for birth procedures, baby well care (checkups and shots), and sick visits, and 4) call or visit doctor’s offices, your hospital or birth center and confirm covered and non-covered costs for the baby and you.

      We also kept separate policies when expecting our first child, who would be added to my policy. After she was born, we contacted my HR with her birth info so she could be added, starting the day of her birth.

      The whammy came when I found out that HR delayed adding her to coverage. Apparently they would save up all the additions/subtractions to employee policies and submit them on the first of the following month. (It was a quiet cost-reduction measure employees knew nothing about.) Imagine our shock when none of my daughter’s hospital bills were covered. My husband called his insurance and they kindly worked with us to add her to his policy and backdate the coverage to her DOB. Lesson learned: ask many, many questions prebirth.

      And congratulations!

    8. NewMom*

      On the “wait until showing advice” I’d just like to offer the warning that this varies wildly. Everyone told me that first time moms often don’t show until 20ish weeks. That was very not true for me, probably due to the fact that I’m petite but also have always had weak abs. I had to dress to hide it starting at like 10 weeks. By 16, even in loose clothes, it was pretty obvious. I couldn’t pull off the “pregnant or fat” look due to severe morning sickness and weight loss. Becoming skeletal everywhere but the belly is a give away.

    9. Working While Pregnant*

      Told my manager around 14 weeks and my immediate team around 16 weeks. I did this partly because I felt like I was “supposed to” but also because our team is super small and we were having some serious long-term planning conversations and I felt like ought to let them know I wouldn’t be around for the time period we were discussing.

      I told the rest of the company around 19 weeks because I was starting to feel self-conscious about my body (even though in retrospect I wasn’t showing at all). I do wish I had held off on this a bit longer as all work conversations now revolve around the pregnancy/baby. This will depend on your colleagues, but be prepared!

    10. A day in the zoo*

      Insurance broker here. High deductible plans consider two people a family, so if you add your child to your coverage, you will have to meet the family deductible before the plan begins to pay. So, it often makes sense to cover as many family members as possible to meet the deductible. Each individual is capped at an annual max of $6,750 (for 2018 — it is indexed each each) so depending on your deductible and out of pocket maximums, an individual family member may receive some coverage before the combined family out of pocket is met.

      I have three kids and have had a HD plan for 15 plus years. We don’t have any super serious health issues, but we had two with serious allergies — testing, drug therapy and one with serious asthma so lots of scripts and physician visits. We max out our contributions annually for the health savings account and it has worked really well for us, but each family is different. I still make an annual spreadsheet of paycheck contributions, expected medical needs, and employer provided HSA contributions to figure it out.

      1. Anon Today*

        Yea, I’m thinking we will add the child to my plan. At the beginning of January 2019 I’ll have enough saved in my HSA to cover the family deductible + out of pocket maximum, I think it will be a good move. Baby isn’t due till spring 2019.

        1. AdhdAnon*

          Since you’re giving birth next calendar year, factor in the cost of two years of paying the deductible on yourself. It’s likely that some of your more expensive visits/multiple blood tests will fall in 2018, (10 wk NT, 20 week anatomy, any genetic testing and counseling), but your actual giving birth bills will fall in 2019. In the US women generally receive two sets of charges – one for the woman giving birth and one for the baby. (You may know that – totally didn’t occur to me till my first.). The costs apparently vary wildly throughout the country.

          1. Anon Today*

            Nope didn’t know that! I did know that I’d have to pay the deductible for two years though and I’ll have that money available as well. I’m going to call my healthcare provider and try to get a ballpark estimate of how much each test/procedure will cost, so I can start budgeting for it.

            This community is so knowledgeable.

            All of the considerations are really overwhelming and I’m already scared about becoming a mom!

            1. AdhdAnon*

              Totally is! In my experience (really, seriously just what I’ve found. I could be totally wrong.) If you’re planning on returning to work and having your child in daycare, you’re going to do more ped visits in the first year than someone who stays home or has a nanny, relative, other child care situation. My advice there – make sure your pediatrician (or the practice) has late afternoon/ evening and Saturday hours. Urgent care can be time consuming, expensive and they’re not always set up to do pediatrics. (My son has asthma – we went in a lot until he was old enough for daily steroidal medication.)

          2. A day in the zoo*

            It is not the norm to have the baby get its own bills on a healthy delivery. The only time it happens is fi the baby required NICU care or you are a dependent on a parent’s plan (so your care is covered, but a grandchild’s care would not be.

            Hospitals will try to collect from you, but you should protest that bill with your carrier — get your HR/benefits department involved.

    11. attornaut*

      With my first, I waited until basically 20 weeks/when I was showing. With my second (different employer, different management), it was 10 weeks. With my first, I didn’t feel supported, no one in the office had a child and the manager had never dealt with someone going on maternity leave before. It was generally a disaster, and I knew it would be (hence the waiting).

      The biggest reason in why I disclosed so much earlier the second time was because I knew I had a manager who would not hold it against me in any way, who had experienced several pregnancies herself and had done both the working up until labor thing and the partial bed rest thing and would respect me to let her know whether I needed to take a step back earlier or at all. I also do more long term team-oriented work (and have a bigger leadership roll) now so it was more important for planning purposes for management to know.

    12. anonymoushiker*

      I haven’t had a kid, but one of the employees who works for me just disclosed that she was expecting and I believe she was almost exactly 3 months in. She absolutely doesn’t want to tell anyone else until it’s impossible to hide anymore and we’ve talked about planning for coverage about a month before her due date. This was totally fine for me, but I also would have been fine/happy/not upset or angry if she didn’t tell me until around the time that she is obviously (for her) pregnant.

    13. Faith*

      I am currently 12.5 weeks pregnant, and I have been telling people on an “as needed” basis. I’ve told my boss almost right away because I knew she would be supportive, and I’ve been dealing with some medical issues that required me to make frequent medical appointments. I told a couple of friends at the office since there was a very real risk of me fainting at the office, and I wanted someone to sits next to me to know what’s going on. I told my team a little later so that they wouldn’t freak out about me being gone for a few hours a day and worry that I was interviewing. But all of those people would also be on my “need to know” list in case something went wrong with the pregnancy since my absence from the office would have affected them directly.

    14. Ender*

      I waited till I had to tell too – don’t see why it’s anyones business before that unless there are safety concerns.

    15. DBA*

      I waited until 20 weeks due to out of office schedules. I couldn’t believe that nobody guessed by that point!

    16. NewMom*

      On insurance one thing to consider: the baby’s hospital stay will be covered on *your* insurance. That’s an ACA regulation. It may be up to 30 days, but we didn’t have anything other than baby well visits for those 30 days, which have to be covered at 100% anyways so we never got an EOB/a bill for it.

      Also, YMMV based on costs, but for us it made sense to put the baby on my husband’s insurance. And then the incremental cost between baby+husband and baby+me+husband was lower than what I expected to pay for my share of the birth (20% in network coinsurance sucks). This was for a February baby, so there was only 1 month of husband + spouse. Basically, having TWO plans worked out so that my out of pocket costs for the birth were very low, and we met the family deductible on my husbands’ plan immediately. It was weird, but being doubly insured for the year of the birth worked out to save us money overall. It took some doing to figure this out, including forcing the hospital to give me price ranges on stuff (which they really don’t want to do).

      Also, I had a completely unmedicated hospital birth. Was still 25K. So my share would have been $5k if I had just stayed on my own insurance. Healthcare in the US is nuts. For so many reasons, not the least of which I had to go to a more expensive hospital to get the option of a truly natural birth (eg not being tied to a bed).

    17. Drama Llama*

      I told my boss because I had hyperemesis gravidarum during my pregnancy and had to take a lot of time off (eventually ended up going part time). I didn’t want them to think I was dying.

      Do what you think makes sense for your situation.

  13. That Would be a Good Band Name*

    Just a job search vent today: why do employers claim to have “very generous PTO” and then only offer 10 days? I don’t really expect an answer, but 10 days of PTO (that’s vacation/sick total) is not generous!

    If anyone would like to think positive thoughts/good juju/whatever that I’ll get the other job that I interviewed for earlier this week that has 20 vacation, 12 sick, and 3 personal days, I’d appreciate it. I’m supposed to hear back today either way it goes.

    1. DaniCalifornia*

      I hope you hear back good news!!! That job sounds like their PTO is awesome!

      And yes 2 weeks for total sick/vacay is not generous. We get 3 weeks total but sometimes it’s not enough because we can’t take any vacation during tax season/certain deadlines. So 5-6 months out of the year we aren’t allowed time off and we are working serious overtime.

    2. Cringing 24/7*

      POSITIVE VIBES TO YOU!!!
      Also, mood. 10 whole days?! Bare. Minimum. It is literally the least they could do to even remotely be considered competitive. It’s like if someone said they have “years” of experience at something, but the number of years is 2. Like, yeah, but also mostly no.

    4. Someone Else*

      This is what is commonly referred to as “sales puffery”; ie it’s language that is in no way true, the person making the statement has made no effort to confirm that it is or isn’t true and doesn’t care if it is, because they’re allowed to say it, and only saying it, because it’s subjective anyway and makes them sound good.

      In other words, no one’s going to advertise that they have a stringy policy. So they toss in the “generous” because for some reason they feel like they need an adjective next to the word, instead of just saying they offer PTO by itself with no modifier. See also: companies who claim “competitive salaries” when they don’t pay market rate. It’s competitive to someone and the PTO is generous compared to someone but the someones in both cases are “companies that do worse”.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Interestingly, I discovered recently that our head of HR thinks that we have WONDERFUL benefits, even though we only give 10 days of vacation and have very meager other benefits (e.g. 401K, FSA, etc). I’m new enough that it didn’t make sense to push back yet, but she’s been at the agency for long enough that I wonder whether she just doesn’t know what we’re being compared to.

      2. Kat in VA*

        I’ve noticed almost always that companies who state they offer “competitive salary” are usually offering anything but competitive compensation. As in, 10-20% below market not competitive.

    5. Kat in VA*

      Ten whole days? That’s, like, standard.

      I’m crossing fingers for a company that offers 20 days along with 10 paid holidays and 2 floaters.

      THAT is a decent vacation package!

    6. Hamburke*

      Do they have paid holidays too? I’m only asking bc it if not, 20 pto days = 10 vacation days + 10 holidays and could be a sneaky way to sound generous but not be generous (although the 12 sick + 3 personal does average out to be a week more than most people).

  14. Lady Dedlock*

    Out of curiosity, what sort of cost-of-living increase did everyone get this year, if any? The college where I work just announced we’re getting 2%, which was a bit of a letdown, since we’ve gotten 3% for the past few years.

    7. Bunny Slippers*

      Also in higher ed. 1.5% was the increase this year, as it has been the past few years. No one was happy about it.

    8. Emily S.*

      I’ve had no raise in over four years, but I’m at a very small company that’s not doing great. Also, I started with a pretty good salary.

    10. ThatGirl*

      I got a 2.5% merit increase, they don’t usually frame it as COLA. My husband works at a university and not only did he not get a raise they never got their “temporary” pay cut back.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I *hate* the 2-3 percent annual raise that’s called “merit”! My current company does that, but they give it to everybody and it’s annual, so it’s really just a COLA that they want me to be extra appreciative of. It’s not actually recognition of my excellent performance at all – which is worth a lot more than 2%, but now the discussion is closed :(

        1. ThatGirl*

          To be fair – my company did not have the best financial year last year and my manager, when she told me about the raise, said not everyone had even gotten one. So it was not much of raise, but it truly was in appreciation of my performance.

      2. Arjay*

        I got 2%, framed as merit, but it’s really COLA too. My boss said, “Hey, at least it’s some extra money, right?”

    11. dorothy zbornak*

      I got 3%, which my boss told me was the highest he could get me for being a solid contributor. I’ve been at this job for just over a year so not sure if this is considered merit based or COL but either way – 3%. I’ve gotten as little as 1% before.

    13. Alternative Person*

      None, I got a line about business costs from my manager. The only increases I’ve seen in the past couple of years is a minimum wage increase, but given that it only affects admin time (not client facing time), it’s basically negligible in the grand scheme of things.

      I’m not hopeful about a COL or merit raise because my company values loyalty over ability in most areas.

    14. Tris Prior*

      2.3%, and that was with an “exceeds expectation” rating. Those who got “meets” apparently got less than 2% and were Not Happy.

    15. Prof*

      At my universe, the faculty in my department received 1%. This is the first COL raise in four years here.

    16. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Lol. We get “market adjustments” (based on what other local organizations are paying for similar roles) rather than cost of living adjustments. The average in my org this year was around 1%. I got .74% (please note the decimal point).

    17. SJ*

      Huge multi-national company…only managed 1.5% this year. Apparently, I’m near the top of my salary range.

    18. Blue*

      The last university I worked at didn’t do COLAs, but if you were really lucky, you might get a merit raise of 1-3%. (*eyeroll*) One of the reasons I started looking is that I spent a year busting my rear, doing a good job on work far above my pay grade. My boss had to work hard to get me the biggest possible raise, and it barely covered my annual rent increase. I was like, “THIS is what I get for completely burning myself out with no end in sight? No, thanks.” (When they were hiring for a replacement, they had to give the position a dean-level title.)

    19. KMB213*

      0%

      The only pay bump I’ve ever received at my job came when I got a promotion. Other than that, no raises or COLAs. I work for a very small company and, until recently, we were struggling financially, but it’s still frustrating.

    20. Cringing 24/7*

      My wife received 2.5% (she had been expecting 2% max, so we were very excited about it) and I received 4.6% (however, mine was due to a promotion, so I don’t know what it would have been otherwise).

    21. BlueWolf*

      I’m at a mid-size law firm. I got a “market adjustment” and a merit increase totaling about 6.6%. That’s not bad at all, it just feels small compared to my increase last year because I got a promotion last year which came with a much bigger boost.

    22. EB*

      My department within the university I work in did away with COL increases and is merit-only. That having been said, the range was 1-5% and I can’t complain because I got 4%! Anecdotally it’s pretty unusual to actually get 0%– most seem to at least get 1%

    23. BusyBusyKitty*

      I wonder what the average CEO wage increase was? Especially for large companies that “can’t afford” to give more than a 2% “merit” raise.

    24. not my circus, not my monkeys. mostly.*

      We don’t get COL. They don’t call it anything, except “don’t expect raises this year.” This year I got 1.75%, and am expected to be very grateful for it.

    25. Shannon*

      Didn’t get any. Apparently this company doesn’t get any. I’m fighting hard for a merit based raise but that doesn’t look promising. I will not be here long.

    27. Bostonian*

      My company provides really crappy yearly raises (1-3%), but really good bonuses (10%). I know that salary increases are more important in the long run, but it helps soften the blow.

    28. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

      Zero. Nothing. And nothing for years now except more work. I’m not looking because I don’t plan on staying in this state for much longer, and the health insurance is awesome (no deductibles, tiny copays, and no coinsurance).

    29. bookwyrm*

      We get a 3% COLA every year. However, I was also told I should get a raise and promotion at my annual review back in December, and that has yet to manifest….

    30. Meow Yorker*

      Interesting to see so many people getting a COL raise. Our small company doesn’t do raises unless there’s a promotion involved, so it’s 0% for me. I’d LOVE to get even 1% every year! That’d add up, compound interest and all.

    31. anon for this*

      ours are framed as merit raises and coincide with performance reviews – the typical range is ~1-3% but i was able to get 4% (this time).

    32. Piano Girl*

      My last raise was 1%, as the company was supposedly struggling. Of course, this was right after the office spent a chunk of money redoing some of the offices, the foyer, and putting down $50K in carpet. I was laid off not long after that. Still a little irritated about that one.

    33. Someone Else*

      Zero. We’re in a freeze at the moment. If things turn around in later Qs we might get retroactive raises? But I’m actually not sure if my company even does COL raises specifically. I’ve had a merit raise every other year, and those were much larger than any COL I had anywhere else.

  15. The Second to Last Airbender*

    I’m looking for tips on how to become apathetic towards your job? I’m unhappy but not miserable at my job primarily due to being under appreciated but also some frustrations with inefficiencies. I’ve compared the whole thing to going through the stages of grief and I’m now trying to reach acceptance. I’m going to be stuck here for awhile though and all in all the job isn’t terrible.

    I feel like it sounds bad but I just want to care less, like just watch the fire burn instead of trying to keep putting it out. Has anybody been through this and if so how did you go about it?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Yep. I got real passionate about my hobbies outside of work. I cultivated an “I work for money in order to do what I love outside of work” attitude. Every hour you are on the job, you are making money. However, there’s a downside to this attitude, I’m probably not as good an employee as I used to be and I think I’ve picked up some bad habits (like commenting on this blog instead of working, even when I have things I could be doing). It’s probably better to focus on trying to get a job you don’t feel that way about.

        1. Triplestep*

          Another ditto. I go above and beyond for my interal clients and any project teams I lead, but do the bare minimum for my boss who has proven she isn’t interested in setting me up for success. I discovered my mood changed for the better once I found some coping skills and started applying for other jobs. I think my elevated mood has likely made her think I am happy here.

          I have prioritized diet and exercise, and – because as of May I only have one child I am helping with Higher Ed costs – I have started to spend more time and money on my appearance. (I believe this will help with the job search, but it also makes me feel good. I realize that expensive skincare is not in everyone’s budget, but if you can swing it, I recommend the pampering.)

          If you have a flexible schedule, get to work early and leave early. I get to work an hour before my boss and use that hour for myself: I bring my own laptop and apply for jobs, pay bills, etc. I still work at least 8 hours (from 7:45ish to 4:30ish) so no guilt there, but this allows me to beat traffic, get good parking, score points for being here early, and have some “me time” I don’t get enough of at home. To facilitate this, I make sure I am 100% ready for work the next day before I go to bed at night. This minimizes morning blues around having to go to work.

          This all took time to cultivate; I typically have a strong customer service mindset, but once I gave myself permission to put myself first, it got easier. Good luck!

    2. Wandering Thoughts...*

      Are you Past Me from three years ago?

      My last job was like this: I was completely miserable and tried very hard to become apathetic and remove myself from the issues of the office. Honestly, I was unsuccessful with achieving that until I actually had a new job to go to and had turned in my notice. I’m a very empathetic person so it was impossible for me to seperate my feels from my job.

      The best thing I was able to do was lock away all the thoughts once I was out of the office. Evenings and weekends were my time, and I didn’t let job stuff touch me then, other than job searching. Even then I had several days where I pulled over to the side of the highway and cried because I was so miserable and frustrated.

      Sorry I can’t be of more help but you can make it through! Good luck!

    3. Icontroltherobots*

      it gets easier once you reach the acceptance stage. +1 to finding hobbies. Also, avoid volunteering for things and being the “go-to” helper of your co-workers. You can also slowly decrease the expectations they have of you by slow working.

      good luck!

    4. AnonGD*

      This might sound stupid on its face– but don’t underestimate an evening ritual or mantra in your car or at home to mentally transition out of work.

      That having been said, I’ve been in my current role for 5 years and tried for a long time to do what you’re saying. Things got worse in the company instead of better, and it’s just impossible to separate work stress from my personal life anymore. I’d definitely check-in with yourself regularly and make sure you don’t drift into the place I did where I realized how much it was actually getting to me too late.

      The mere act of submitting applications for job instantly boosted my spirits. I have an in-person interview next week and I can’t even express how much sudden zest for life I have now that I am starting to see the end of the tunnel! (And I am NOT typically a ‘zest for life’ person, ha!)

    6. epi*

      I’ve been in a similar position. The job was worse but something I needed to keep doing for a while, and I needed to let go of being so invested in it, for my sanity.

      It sounds weird but I actually got more invested in my personal professional development. One of the things that bugged me about the situation was the feeling that I was in this field *through* that job and I could only be as good a researcher as that role let me be. I decided that for a while I would explore my field solely through the lens of what interested or served me. If you need help caring less about your job, I am guessing there is something about your industry or role that you are quite passionate about or find interesting, so this may work for you.

      I started a blog where I just wrote about issues that interested me in my field, even (or especially) if they had little to do with my job. I pursued my own line of journal research on issues I might want to work on in the future. If there was a skill I wanted, I figured out how to get it on my own– in one case foregoing a tuition reimbursement benefit so I couldn’t be obligated to stay any longer than I wanted to. You might also explore what (no obligation) training opportunities are available to you at work and how far afield you can go from stuff suited to your current role. It is way easier to let go of your job a little if you have something competing for your time and attention, and way easier to defend it to yourself and others if it’s kind of related to work. Since this stuff will all be indirectly making you better at your job, you can also take comfort that it is probably making up for some of your new apathy. :)

    7. attornaut*

      Is there anything you can focus on that is positive? Maybe a training opportunity, or some personal/work development you could do in your spare time there? Or maybe you have a goal at home that you are excited about.

    8. theletter*

      I had a job awhile back that had some terrible inefficiencies. There was a monthly task for my team that was boring, tedious, and we weren’t providing value by doing it. I brought it up to my manager, and he agreed with me! and told me to figure out how many hours we were spending on this task! and then the task went away! and then I got a raise!

      So I essentially told my boss I didn’t want to do that work anymore, he took it away, and then rewarded me for asking him to get rid of it.

      I bring this up because you mentioned inefficiencies – if there’s solutions for it, you should bring them up and see if they can be resolved. It might improve your job.

    9. Phoenix Programmer*

      This happened instantly for me when my mom died … so that’s not how I would recommend going about it.

      One thing that helped me deal with my new priority structure – cause isn’t caring less bad??? – was to reframe it as caring appropriately. Alison has a post on the danger of being overly invested in work. Link to follow.

    10. Persimmons*

      Part of it was getting older and having fewer f*cks to give in general. That’s less a learned behavior and more a matter of waiting it out.

      Part of it was paying attention the life cycle of problems when they did occur. What was the “emergency” and how did it play out? Did my immediate attention really matter in the end? Was my reaction in keeping with the level of care and attention the other parties paid to the issue? Who truly caused the issue, and what steps did they take to prevent a repeat in the future? Doing a post-mortem taught me that most problems were caused by other peoples’ lack of planning that they tried to dump on me, my diligence often accomplished nothing because other dropped balls pushed the timeline out, and all I was doing was stressing out and spinning my wheels. Boom! Fewer f*cks given.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Love this. I used to sum it up by saying, “I cannot control all matters.” But yes, understanding why things are happening is helpful. and understanding what will happen next because of events is also helpful. Keep your square foot of Planet Work all in order. I understand, you are seeing amazing stuff, you wonder how people have remained employed, etc. Keep telling yourself “But my one square foot is good here.”

      2. not Lynn Davis*

        The mantra that helped get me through was “In three days this won’t matter.”
        Whether the latest round of not-appreciated, or whatever.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      So you are stuck here for a bit longer. This is kind of a crazy idea but one thing I have done is get my personal life in order so I can move on to the next job when it is time. It gives me something proactive to do and fills my brain space.
      This can be anything, take those courses you wanted to take. Get your home set up so that everything is easier to do. Work on your budget. See, the advantage of really knowing our jobs is that we CAN shut our brains off when we leave. Longevity gives us opportunities to learn all the different sides of a task or project, and sometimes we can do it in our sleep. Take advantage of that. When you get home turn your brain back on and maximize this time in your life. What do you need to do to get set for the next five years or so? If you are thinking, “Well, I am stuck here for FOUR of those years!” I’d say, “Good, you can get a lot of stuff done on the personal side of your life. Four years is plenty of time to really think it through and be super strategic.”

  16. Stephanie*

    So my job requires a decent amount of travel via driving. My boss and I did an 8-hour R/T earlier this week. The ride was fine, a tad awkward at times because I think we were trying to figure out what to talk about. We did ok (I heard way too much about his hunting hobby, but I played along and just asked questions), but there were a decent amount of awkward silences.

    So this sounds kind of silly, but what radio do people default to when on work road trips like this?

    2. hermit crab*

      I’m not normally a podcast person, but last year I went on a similar trip with my then-direct report and we listened to some podcasts she recommended that were tangentially related to our field. It worked out really well! There’s no pressure to awkwardly chitchat while you are listening, and afterwards you can talk about what you heard.

    3. Emily S.*

      SiriusXM satellite radio is awesome for road trips, since you don’t have to worry about losing a signal. They have tons of channels for different genres of music.

      I also recommend podcasts. NPR has some great ones.

    4. Audiophile*

      Hey!

      Haven’t been on too many work trips, and when I have usually it’s with like minded people so NPR or another news station was fine. I’d say a classic rock station, maybe, would probably be the safest. I usually just hit “scan” and see what comes up.

      How’s grad school?

      1. Stephanie*

        I graduated! Finished and started work in June at an automaker in the Midwest (you can probably guess where I work in oh, I don’t know, three tries). I was posting sporadically while in school tbh.

        Classic rock might be the safest. Or if I can find a good auto industry podcast, that would also work.

        1. Audiophile*

          Awesome! Congrats! I looked for your sporadic post in the open threads, but must have missed when you graduated.

          Are you based in MI? I feel like that’s a pretty safe assumption.

          I think an auto podcast or classic rock are you best bets.

    7. Aphrodite*

      I never listen to the radio but am the biggest fan of audiobooks! Though my reading is almost exclusively nonfiction, I have found I listen to fiction about 25 percent of the time while in the car. I am fortunate in that my favorite thrift store is somewhat high end and gets a good amount of audiobooks (on CD) that they sell for between $2-$4. I have started two that I didn’t like and returned to them but all the rest have been delightful.

    8. Notthemomma*

      Hubby drove OTR for 20+ years. His son made a great observation a while back. No matter where in the country you are, 92.5 seems to have something good.

      Or, any of the ‘how stuff works’ series.

    9. ronda*

      why not be upfront about it.
      “I find it awkward to make conversation for so long in the car….. what are your preferences?”
      music, podcasts, audiobooks. On audiobooks… you might have problems matching up the timeframe and have more awkwardness about coordinating to finish the book (if it is that kind of book).

      Also if you don’t want to listen to the same things — personal headphones or silently reading or napping ?

      Just have a conversation about it and it will probably work out fine.

  17. No cuddling or soda-spitting*

    A bit of a spin-off from one of this week’s earlier posts. What are some team building exercises/events/etc. that people have found they actually really like, enjoy and are effective?

    1. Peaceful easy feeling*

      I can’t suggest an escape room enough. My husband did this with his team, twice, and they loved it. I did this with a non-profit team and we had a lot of fun. We did one with our 11yr old niece and sister-in-law (her mom) and we had a great time. It’s great for everyone.

      They challenge traditional problem solving, allow everyone to showcase their skills and talents (some are great at word games, other math, others visual clues) and plus you get to see how you can tackle problems as a group. I would say 4-5 max due to the size of some rooms and everyone being able to participate.

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, we did one with my new hire cohort and it was well received. It’s short (you can be done within the hour), doesn’t require anything overly physical, and people can showcase different skills.

      2. Matilda Jefferies*

        My only caveat would be to check with the escape room provider beforehand, and find out if the game has any physical requirements. I did one that required everyone to climb through a window as the last step to get out – thankfully we didn’t actually make it that far, because I wouldn’t have been able to do it.

        It wouldn’t have been any more than embarrassing for me, and I was with friends in any case. But I would have hated to be the person in a work situation who was surprised by something like this, after it was too late to avoid.

        (I don’t want to start a #NotAllEscapeRooms moment here! Just a reminder that there’s literally no activity that everyone will love, and for whatever you have in mind, make sure you plan ahead for things like this that may not be immediately obvious.)

        1. Peaceful easy feeling*

          Great point! Yes, physical limitations should be considered, as well as anyone who doesn’t like to move about in small spaces because some rooms can be small and worsened with too many people. It could feel claustrophobic. Often the escape rooms will have a warning on the room theme (strobe lights, noise, etc).

      3. LJay*

        I would have to say that this may depend on the team working well together to begin with.

        I’ve actively avoided doing these because I know they would exacerbate my worst tendencies, namely that I’m a control freak and that I think I’m always right. I know I wouldn’t do well dealing with people floundering over obvious (to me at least) dead ends and bad choices, and would either A. Think less of them for not listening to me and not figuring it out on their own or B. Snap at them and take control whether they wanted to cede control or not.

        I can usually keep myself together in work situations, but I know I have these tendencies to begin with and putting myself in a situation where these buttons are being pushed just for the sake of “fun” is something I don’t want to risk with my friends and relatives, never mind coworkers.

      4. Young coworker*

        I would choose carefully for theme – my team did an 80s theme and being born in the 90s and uninterested in that era, I was completely useless and just waiting for it to end

    2. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      We actually had a really good time years ago making a mini-golf course through our office. We chose from a hat for our teams, and people really got creative. There was a Willy Wonka/Candy themed hole, one person hand made a guitar station (unreal!!) and made it a music theme, another did a skiing theme down our stairs, etc. Then we all went and played the courses. It was very fun. I stink at mini-golf but I had a great time trying out the team’s creative stations.

    3. Jady*

      Lunches and bowling are the only ones I’ve ever actually enjoyed. Lunches are just nice because they break up the workday.

    4. grace*

      We volunteered with a local non-profit for an afternoon. It was a lot of fun – we got lunch before going there, volunteered, and then hung out with drinks at a local brewery. The volunteering itself was fun, but so was spending time with the office – there’s only 5 of us, and we get along well, so it’s always a good time.

    5. Doug Judy*

      The ones I have enjoyed have had these in common:
      1. It was during work hours
      2. It didn’t cost me anything
      3. It wasn’t mandatory or being voluntold

      Usually my favorite ones tend to be a volunteer activity followed by some kind of lunch or even just ice cream or something.

    6. Me (I think)*

      The best I ever did was a Habitat for Humanity build. We could choose one of three days that week to volunteer. We had maybe 20 people come out the day I went, many of whom I didn’t know that well (office of about 150, but lots of them travel.) It was fun, challenging, and I had great conversations and learned a lot about my colleagues.

    7. KatieHR*

      I was actually waiting for the open threat today so I could post the same question. My team has also done an Escape Room and it has been so much fun! We are thinking about doing another team building as we got 2 new people on the team and were going to do another Escape Room but are thinking of other options.

    8. Sandy*

      We had a neat one a couple years ago: a cooking class! Paid time, allergies were accommodated beforehand, and anyone who didn’t wish to participate in the cooking did a chocolate tasting on the side. Everyone ate what they cooked, and rest of the day off. It was as fabulous as a work event could be.

      1. Very tired*

        Yes, I second a cooking class. We were all learning together. However, i anti-recommend cooking competitions as team bldg. It’s the opposite of what team building is supposed to accomplish.

    9. Nita*

      Trivia night at a place with nice food, company picnic, scavenger hunt around the neighborhood… Also the yearly safety training. It’s not really a team-building exercise, but the training is eight hours and fairly loosely structured, so it’s the one time the entire department is in one place with some spare time to chat and catch up.

    10. PDXJael*

      We did a trivia game about the physical workplace that was well received (from where’s the fire extinguisher in the lunchroom to whose office has the framed Cubs jersey, etc.). It was fun because people know different areas and learn new things (there was a creepy old cafeteria in the basement, etc.).

    11. Ali G*

      We had a staff retreat at a local resort and they arrange scavenger hunts for team building exercises. I was skeptical but ended up really enjoying it. You were handed a set of clues, and you could choose where to go first. At each station you either performed a task or answered questions of some sort. You earned points for each station depending on how well your team did and at the end the team with the most points won.
      Things we did:
      Historical trivia (it was a historical site where the resort was)
      Working together to move a ball across a room without touching the floor with just a handful of different length tubes that were cut lengthwise in half, archery, getting a talk on raptors (and meeting some!) and then answering a few questions about them, 5 min of yoga stretching (optional), working together to paint a still life, and more. Nothing was overly strenuous, and it was all very interesting!

      1. Arjay*

        I swear, my first thought was velocipraptors. I’n guessing you didn’t really get to meet them. :)

    12. Adaline B.*

      Ooh perfect, I’m interested in this too. Our team just grew by a lot and my boss asked me what team building fun stuff we should do and I was like “uhhhhhhhh” haha

    13. Beancounter in Texas*

      We’ve done entertainment places, bowling alleys, etc, but my favorite was an indoor gym type of place that had three ropes courses. We were grouped by a random number draw, so you didn’t cluster with your own department automatically, and when doing the ropes course, you had to have a buddy. So I ended up buddying with someone I didn’t know very well, but we bonded over the ropes course.

    14. AK*

      We just had a mini “field day” where each department wore a different color. We went to a park for a provided lunch, then had a few games (think egg and spoon, three-legged races), none of which were mandatory. After that, everyone got ice cream (also provided) and sat around chatting for a while before heading home early for the day. The department that won got lunch provided the next day, so there was a little bit of healthy competition but nothing huge at stake. It was a pretty big hit for the leadership that organized it!

    15. LJay*

      One of my former workplaces had what they called the funolympics. Each department had a team and competed against other teams. Signups were completely voluntary. And you could choose to compete in up to 3 events per person.

      There were a bunch of different things you could do – from things like musical chairs, to building the biggest tower out of popsicle sticks, to drinking weird concoctions, to a photo scavenger hunt, to a relay race, to a company trivia game, to a tug-of-war.

      Events were set at different times of day so you could participate before work, during your lunch break, or after work. It was all on work property. And at the end of the week they had a little banquet where you could eat and they gave out the “award” for the top 3 departments, and then a bunch of other participation type awards like best team spirit, etc until all the departments got something.

    16. Shelly574*

      One of my coworkers takes on the task (bless him) of organizing lunch outings when the campus cafeteria is closed. The places are regular (we have five to seven spots) and he sends out an email letting us know the daily choice. It’s totally voluntary, self-funded and a great way to get to know people across departments. It’s not “officially” team building, but it has been very useful for doing that.

  18. RockyRoad*

    Three of the jobs I’ve done phone screenings for in the past few months turned out to be for temporary jobs. I wouldn’t have applied if I’d known. I applied directly to the companies (no recruiters were involved) and the job listings didn’t mention anything about being temporary. I don’t see anything in common between the jobs except that they were entry-level, but all entry-level jobs aren’t temp jobs.

    Is there something I’m missing that should indicate which jobs are temporary?

    1. Chaordic One*

      I don’t think so. I think you’ve just had a string of bad luck. You don’t say how many jobs you’ve applied for, but even if it has been 3 out of 3, misleading job descriptions in advertisements are very common.

      I do think that some employers will say that a position is temporary because, if things don’t work out with the new employee, they have an easy way to get rid of her or him. (It’s kind of a shitty thing to do.)

      1. RockyRoad*

        I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I guess a purposefully misleading job ad makes the most sense.

        It seems so stupid to do a bait and switch. How many people who applied thinking it’s a full time/permanent job are still going to be interested when they find out it’s a temp job that “has the possibility of going full time” someday?

    2. Hamburke*

      I once got an “tech writing” job offer at a store – job duties to actually include stocking and floor straightening… The job description included “strong verbal and written skills. Familiarity with MS Office products.” And more along the lines of adminstrative. But for real, it was a backroom retail associate. I’ve been wary of job descriptions ever since.

  19. Changing Careers*

    Any stories of successfully working with an external recruiter and how to tell what ones are good? I am trying to make a career transition, and it’s not going great. I have transferable skills and my resume lists relevant accomplishments, but people read my job title and immediately reject me. I thinking a good external recruiter might be the way to go but I am not sure.

    Also, on the resume front, I am trying to go from finance to HR. My undergrad is in Business Admin, and a MS in Organizational Leadership. I have hiring, training and development and benefits experience from prior positions, even if the day to day was accounting/finance based. I try to highlight my accomplishments on my resume that aren’t finance focused, but I feel those aren’t even being read, because they look at my title and that’s it. Is there a way to format my resume to get people to focus on my accomplishments rather than get stuck on my title?

    1. Four lights*

      I used a recruiter for my last job search (paralegal) and she was great. I reached out to a few recruiters, and had a meeting in person. That might give you an indication of if they’re good or not.

    2. Icontroltherobots*

      Using an external recruiter will help. Basically treat them as an annoying go-between. The better ones will be upfront about the company, salary range, job description, ect. The crap ones will demand your range and tell you it’s too high or you’re not qualified for what you want ect..

      They should be advocating to the companies that you’re a strong candidate. So basically contact as many recruiters as you can, and only agree to apply for jobs where you get a job description that fits your new career goals.

      1. Changing Careers*

        Thanks. I have one set up for next week to go over my career goals and talk about what I want out of my next job. They think I do have some transferable skills and I made it very clear that I’m not interested in any accounting or finance based roles.

        You’re totally right, they are any annoying go between, but I feel in my situation, it might be necessary.

      2. DivineMissL*

        How does one find recruiters? I’d like to see what they can do for me in my job search, but I don’t know where to look for them. Do I just Google “recruiters”?

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I just got in touch with one in my LinkedIn network – I’m having the same problem breaking into a lateral field with many transferable skills and a resume that gets no second looks so I’ll see if this makes any difference. We connected a while ago but are now in active communication, and I’ve also been in touch with other external recruiters via LinkedIn so that’s a good resource.

          One thing is to look at what contracting firms are in your area for your field, or who sends contractors to the companies you want to work for, and then check LinkedIn for recruiters for those companies. For as often as they cold-email people, I’m sure they’d be receptive to you sending the first message asking if they know of any openings for X title.

  20. Sara*

    If you have a phone interview with a company and you find out you’re wayyy off on salary, should you still send them a thank you email? I mean technically they did take time out of their day to talk to you, but on the other hand, you’re out of the running for the job so the normal etiquette doesn’t apply.

    1. Peaceful easy feeling*

      Yes. I’d send a thank you for their time. You’re sure you’re out of the running? You never know where that one thanks will lead to; they may have something in their pocket they’re not ready to execute on and you could be the ideal candidate. If you like the company, let them know you’d like to keep in touch for future opportunities.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Sure, it only takes a minute and if they have something open up that is more in line with your salary requirements, it will leave them with a positive impression.

    3. BRR*

      I send a thank you but it’s more of a generic thank you note than an AAM thank you note. I figure it doesn’t hurt.

    4. Jadelyn*

      I would say yes – it never hurts to leave them thinking well of your professionalism. Doesn’t have to be long or involved, just “I wanted to thank you for taking the time to talk to me earlier. Even though we discovered we weren’t well-aligned on salary requirements, it was a pleasure to talk with you and get to know more about the company, and I look forward to talking with you again if something else should open up in the future.”

      Skip that last bit if you know all their salaries are too low for you or something, but I’d still send the rest. You never know who that person knows – if I’d screened someone good who we unfortunately couldn’t match salary for, and a contact at another company had an opening they’d be great for and were probably better set to meet the candidate’s salary requirements, I might pass that person’s resume along to them. Or perhaps if it’s a small industry you’ll encounter this person as a hiring manager at another company someday.

      Always default to leaving things on a good note – worst comes to worst, it’s two seconds and a few clicks out of your day, but at best it could set you up for good things in the future.

    5. MissGirl*

      Normal etiquette always applies. I sent one after they’d rejected me before I had a chance to send the note. I didn’t do the usual follow up stuff just a thank you and asked if there was anything I could work on.

      You can send yours with the announcement you’re pulling out.

    6. DivineMissL*

      I would say yes; even though this job may not pan out (and it still might), leaving them with a good impression of you may make them remember you if another opportunity comes up. And it only takes a couple of minutes of your time. Why not?

  21. Toxic waste*

    How do you deal with mercurial people in a toxic, dysfunctional workplace? I feel like I’m going crazy because one second they act like your friend, the next second they hate you. Sheesh…

    1. dorothy zbornak*

      I’d recommend dealing with it by looking for another job if you can. I made a comment to someone else in this thread about my ToxicJob and specific issues w/a specific coworker but overall I had the same problem – one minute I was the worst person to ever be in my industry and sucked at life, the next I was a rockstar. My anxiety was so bad I had to go on anti depressants and sleeping pills. So yeah – get another job.

      1. Windchime*

        This is exactly what happened to me, too. I went from being the Best Rock Star Evah to Can’t Do Anything Right when my toxic boss got her position. She eventually got fired, but I left long before that because there is no way to win when management approves of and supports the toxic behavior.

        Best of luck.

    2. Alternative Person*

      -Remember it’s them not you.
      -Be consistent in your demeanor/actions/positions (as much as you safely can) and keep out of their toxic circle
      -CYA in e-mail or similar

      I work with a couple of nice-as-pie gravy train riders who don’t care for anyone trying to change up their ‘sweet’ deal-and will throw anyone who tries under the very same train. I leave them be as much as possible and do my thing. It burned my relationships with a few people who are settling down to ride with them, but eh, I keep on keeping on.

    3. Jadelyn*

      Keep your distance and try not to get emotionally involved in either direction – don’t get excited because they’re acting like your friend, and it won’t hurt as much when they suddenly turn on you. Just raise an eyebrow at their histrionics and keep moving.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah. My recommendation is to reframe relationships so you have more agency / control, and find a new job if at all possible.

        Other people only decide their half of the friend equation, you fully own the other half. Only if you both agree that you’d like to be friends do you do the trial friend period – are they a good friend, do they make me a priority, are they someone I respect and enjoy being with? And only after that do they become a real friend. (And even then you may drift or wrench apart.)

        That trial friendship is where that mercurial person washed out. They failed, by their actions, and now you’re not friends. You’re not. They have no vote in this.

        That said, this kind of person doesn’t usually change, and confronting them usually just leads to more nonsense.

    4. AnonGD*

      If they also go back on their word, I find making sure I have documentation of everything via email too, on top of what everyone else has already said.

    5. Lissa*

      Emotional neutrality. I had a coworker like this and it was so hard, because sometimes we’d chat and I’d feel like we really had a rapport, then she’d go off about some tiny thing like the fact that I didn’t hate the owner’s wife as much as she did, and storm around complaining about “high school drama” when she was the person perpetuating it. I got to the point where I would be friendly with her when she was friendly, then go blank/totally neutral when she got into a snit. I never ever tried to get into a discussion with her about any of it, and would just nod and smile a lot.

      That was an extremely dysfunctional workplace, and I probably didn’t help because this coworker and I would absolutely spend ages ranting together about other coworkers who were just far worse in every way. So eventually I just went to being as neutral but still friendly as possible.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I’d tell myself that no one has to be friends with anyone. Relationships aren’t a water faucet, we don’t turn them on and off. Therefore, while they can be friendly acting they are not friends. True friends are not on and off like this. Tell yourself they are doing what they think they need to do in order to survive the job. Then remind yourself so should you.
      What this worked into for me was to be transparent. If I could not say X or Y to everyone then I did not say it at all. I made sure my work was laid out in an abundantly clear manner, so a child of age 2 could follow along. I keep myself consistent and even-keeled (as best I could with the sky falling down and everything).

      It’s super hard to work like this because it triples the work effort. It can feel like you are constantly explaining yourself. Make sure you get good rest each night. Especially mid-week because that is when the place can really start to wear us down. Job hunt like crazy.

  22. MAB*

    I am interviewing for a job Monday in a 3rd party auditing field that is not financial. My question is on attire. Should I wear a suit or an appropriate dress with a blazer? I’m from the PNW and will be interviewing in the windy city. I’ve never been there for work events and am not sure which is more appropriate.

    2. Rey*

      Either one is fine, it’s really up to you and what you are comfortable with. (Assuming of course that the dress is work-appropriate in style, length, fit)

    3. Blue*

      I think it depends on your field! I moved from the PNW to Chicago a few years ago, and I’ve generally found Chicago to be a bit dressier (I work in higher ed, and jeans/flip flops were fine everyday wear in OR; I’ve worked at two universities here, and while both were on the casual end of business casual, jeans weren’t ok.) I wore roughly the same interview outfit in both places (nice structured dress + blazer) but I generally add heels here. But if you’re really on the fence and your field is more formal, I’d go with the suit.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Agreed re Chicago’s dress code culture in general – my org is headquartered in California but has branches in Chicago as well, and back when our dress code was business casually they were still in suits and ties; when we went to casual (jeans everyday, woot!) they grudgingly stepped it down to business casual. Very, very grudgingly. They Do Not Approve of us west coast heathens in our jeans.

    4. CMart*

      I’d wear the suit, unless the dress + blazer is a combo that essentially looks like a suit (ie: all black/dark gray/navy, whatever).

      As a lifelong Chicagoan, Business Things still tend to be pretty formal. Even the offices where the actual dress code is “meh, whatever” people still tend to err on the side of business casual, and I’ve honestly never heard of anyone going to an interview that wasn’t food service or retail not in a suit or near-suit.

    5. epi*

      If you’ll be talking to them again, it’s OK to ask directly. I am in Chicago and my husband is job searching in a role that kind of sits at the intersection of three industries with wildly different dress standards. He just asks and it has never been weird. If you have an excuse to contact them one more time, like for directions or something, ask then.

      If it’s too late to ask, err on the side of dressing up. It’s never a bad thing to be a bit more dressed up than needed.

    6. theletter*

      Chicagoan here. I’ve found that the tech companies follow closer to california rules. Other industries, especially financial and legal, skew conservative. At this point I usually ask the internal recruiter what the dress code is and plan to go one step up.

  23. Peaceful easy feeling*

    How to extend your contract?

    I’ve been working with a non-profit, from home, on several great projects. There could be more projects from the work I’ve done. My relationship with them is positive and my only contact is one staff member. I originally went through a lengthy interview process during which I was adamant that I could only be part-time, mostly due to the distance I’d have to commute (2 hours round trip) and was very open about my need and how it would work with theirs. In the end, they suggested a contract and here we are today.

    If I know there are future projects, how can I inquire about their potential? Submit a mock proposal? Ask my contact? Prompt a discussion and when? My contract ends Dec 31.

    1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Did you get the job through an agency or directly through the company? I via an agency, I would talk to your rep and ask if there has been any talk of extended your contract. If you got the job directly through the company, I would speak to the manager and, again, ask if there is any chance that the contract will be extended given that there is still work to be done. In either case, I would do that now. If by chance they say they are looking for someone permanent, is that an option for you at this point in time? if it is, tell them you are definitely interested.

  24. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom

    I was off on Monday, and completely missed this, but heard about this from several sources. Fergus wants a raise. We all do, but no one has had one in YEARS. About once a quarter, Fergus loses it either to the Boss, or the Great Grand Boss. GGB just keeps walking down the hallway. Boss, however, fires back. They got into it on Monday, when Fergus says he wants a raise, and starts talking about how much overtime he has, and how he works harder than any of us. He made several points which weren’t wrong, but his delivery wasn’t great. Then he insulted our Boss’s appearance, which Boss did not take kindly, and Fergus said some things about how Boss manages, and then stormed out. He stayed outside for a few minutes, then came back in and said he’d been a high performer for quite some time, and if he didn’t get a raise, he would have to look to other avenues. We all know they’re not going to fire him, and he isn’t going anywhere.

    I was looking through our supply book and came across the office furniture. I found office chairs that have the heated massage thing, for the low low price of $675 dollars. Each. I mentioned it to Jane and Farquad. Farquad is a little hard of hearing, and thinks that I said $75 dollars. He says that’s great, and I should order them. Get one for everyone. We’ll need ten. He thinks about $1000 is not a bad price for that. I agreed that it wouldn’t be, but seven grand is a little different from one. His eyes about bugged out of his head.

    Fergus is, to be frank, incredibly racist. He just described someone else as the most racist person in the county. I could have made many comments. I refrained.

    A drunk lady tried to put soda in her gas tank when she ran out of gas. It did not work.

    In happy news, I get to do the birth announcements this week. Those are always fun because 1., it gives me a break from the occasional depression of doing the obituaries, and 2., it’s fun to see what people are naming their kids. Sometimes I make fun. Quietly, and mostly to myself. Anyway, I got a call from a new mom the other day, asking about her baby’s announcement. I heard something in the background, and thought it was a dog. It kept going, and kept going, and then I realized it was not a dog. She was pumping, and either didn’t care, or didn’t realize that I would be able to hear it over the phone.

    1. What's with today, today?*

      I work in a small market radio station as a News Directo and I enjoy your posts, because I can totally relate. My top story this morning was about a guy who fled on foot from a traffic stop and then swam across a small recreational lake to evade police. When he got out on the other side of the lake he was spotted by a property owner who promptly held him at gunpoint until officers arrived to take over. Also, we I haven’t had a raise in 6 years. But I LOVE this place.

    2. Evil HR Person*

      I scrolled down specifically to catch this week’s episode! Love these! I used to work at a newspaper nearly 5 years ago but not long enough to learn nitty gritty day-to-day stuff like this. Please keep them coming! P.S.> Would you consider a blog?

    3. Ender*

      Why would anyone care if you could hear a pump? Is pumping on the phone considered rude where you live or something?

      1. Bee's Knees*

        No, it wasn’t rude, and I didn’t care at all. I just thought it was funny because for the first two minutes of the call, I was astounded that what sounded like a small dog could keep up such a continuous bark.

    4. Kathleen_A*

      I got out of the biz a long time ago now, but it’s fun to hear how much has not changed in a Small-Town Newsroom. :-)

      Not to top your drunk lady (because it definitely does not), but I covered a story in which a guy – not a drunk guy either – caught his CAR and the entire GAS STATION ISLAND on fire by using his CIGARETTE LIGHTER to hold the GAS PUMP on. The lighter slipped and sent out a spark that ignited the fumes from the gasoline – pretty aggressively, too – and the car and island were engulfed in a ball of flame. Nobody was hurt, by some miracle, but the car was a blackened shell by the time I got there, and the island, in addition to being of course blackened, was warped and twisted by the heat of the fire. The plastic, I remember, had melted and was actually still dripping onto the concrete.

      I got there right after the fire was out, and the owner of the car was sitting on the curb a few yards away, looking mournful. Ah, news.

  25. The Doctor*

    Two of the most dreaded words in most office environments: SPECIAL PROJECT. On its face, a “special project” sounds like an opportunity to shine and show the Boss that you’re worthy of a promotion. Sounds great, right?

    No, it isn’t. The reality is that “special project” is code for “Stop your regular work and do this task NOW. Then, after it’s done, we WON’T thank you or recognize you at all for taking on the task, but we WILL penalize you for not completing your regular work (which we told you not to do).”

    1. Not the Spiegs*

      So true! I also get what I’ve been calling the “stop and drop” tasks then get asked why my regular stuff that I said I was working on when I got the “stop and drop” task is taking so long for me to complete.

    2. LCL*

      Here, special project is sometimes code for ‘is having a difficult time right now and isn’t up to their regular job, but doesn’t have enough leave to be out of office.’

      2. London Calling*

        In the Very Big American Bank I used to work for, ‘working on a special project’ was shorthand for ‘we’ve given him/her something where he/she can’t do any damage and cost us Megabucks while we have a think.’

    3. Dear Liza dear liza*

      Ha! In academia, “ special project” is code for: you did something really bad but not outright illegal and since you have tenure it’s impossible to fire you, so we’re giving you this title and squirreling you away in the hopes that you find another job and become someone else’s problem.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        Back when my father was a newspaperman, a troublesome employee was given the title “Director of Special Projects.” They hoped he’d realize his first “special project” ought to be finding himself another job.

    4. KX*

      Here, “special project” could be take over this work for a while, but then we might make it a secondment, and then you might not be able to return to your original job.

    5. Rebecca*

      OMG, this! Ex manager would do this to me all the time! Do this special project that will take hours and hours, oh, you can’t work overtime and you have to get your regular job done at the same time. Me: uh, what can I let slide? Manager: “waves arms in air” nothing, just make it work! So glad she is EX MANAGER.

    6. Rat in the Sugar*

      Ha! That’s similar to my workplace, except our boss actually will thank and recognize us for doing it. Thanks for something especially burdensome often comes in the form of money, so I’m usually not too put out.

      Now if only she and the project managers I work with could understand that tasks don’t get completed simultaneously…I always feel like the conversation is something like:

      “Thanks so much for dropping all your tasks to get this unexpected thing done so quickly, that really helped us out! By the way, what’s the status on the other 14 tasks you had to do this week??”

      “The status is Not Done, because when the hell would I have done them?!”

    7. Wishing You Well*

      Long ago, at my place of work, “being put on special projects” meant “go find another job before we fire you”. However, almost no one was ever fired. People “on special projects” stayed for months, if not years. As one coworker put it, “This is the only place where you can live under your desk and stick your hand out every 2 weeks for a paycheck!”
      Those days are long gone now.

    8. only acting normal*

      Where I work it’s “great opportunity”: codeword for “run far, run fast, run now”.

  26. The Person from the Resume*

    Have you backed off from reading AAM comments and/or open thread? If so, why?

    I find the shear number overwhelming. When the comments rapidly increased a few years back, I stopped looking for the gems in masses. For me (as a reader) the larger numbers are a loss, but for Alison’s bottom line increased readership is a plus. Is there a sweet spot? If so, what is it?

    1. Badmin*

      I get frustrated when someone hijacks the thread (early on a Friday) with a topic that’s borderline work related or hypothetical questions that don’t help someone with a problem they’re dealing with but more for small talk. I like the real nuances of the situations people are in and enjoy reading those, thinking about, or contributing to those discussions. An example was the best/worst part of peoples weeks I think was going on.

      I actually like this question because it allows us to discuss the blog and I’d be interested in what other people have to say.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I’ve been thinking about narrowing the focus on the open threads and asking that posts be limited to asking for advice/offering advice (so no hypothetical questions, no “what’s annoying in your office this week,” no “my coworker is loudly crunching on an apple,” etc.). I think it would make them more usable. Input welcome!

        1. That Would be a Good Band Name*

          I read and interact (admittedly, not a ton on interact) because of the sense of community that is here. Also, because the comments remain civil for the most part. Part of that community feeling is that commenters can get to know each other in a sense – so the hypotheticals, the “can you believe what Fergus just did”, the “here’s this weird thing in my office” all go into the getting to know each other. Lately it seems like there has been a push to stop those more community-feel type comments and I find the site less useful without them. It’s better to have an idea where someone is coming from when they offer their advice.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yeah, I definitely get that! Where I come down on it is that the site can’t be all things to all people, and different people enjoy/look for different things from it. While I do think there’s value to a sense of community, it’s not the primary mission of the site. (And I do think you can have that sense of community without lengthy off-topic comment threads, just from people being kind and helpful. And even funny, as long as it’s relevant and not on a tangent three times removed from the letters in the post.)

            1. Doug Judy*

              I feel the weekend threads serve the purpose of community, where the Friday thread, IMO feels like it should be more geared to work related advice/help.

              1. Camellia*

                But some of us (many of us?) can’t drop in on the weekend and frankly, I scan Friday’s thread looking for the ‘not strictly advice-related’ comments as a change of pace to the work-related posts we’ve already had on Monday through Thursday.

                Perhaps you would consider TWO open threads on Friday – one work-related and one not. It certainly seems like you have enough readers to support two posts like this, in one day. And as I think about it, you might also do two threads for Saturday. Perhaps not everyone with a work-related question can make it to the Friday post and would welcome a Saturday work post.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  There’s definitely enough readership to populate them. My concern is about filling up the archives and people’s RSS feeds, etc. with lots of non-work related posts (or open threads in general) since it changes the character/mission of the site. I see the open threads as a bonus, but not the main thing I offer here.

                  I do hear you that some people would like them! I’m balancing that against these other factors though (and the fact that the site will never be able to be all things to everyone and it’s baked in that some people will want more X and some people will want less X and so I go with what I think is best for the health of the site as a whole).

                2. AK*

                  Maybe even have work-related and non-work open threads on alternating Fridays, so 1st and 3rd are down to business, 2nd and 4th are anything goes?

                3. Not So NewReader*

                  Am chuckling. I remember when there was one open thread for work per month. And that grew. Then came the open threads for everything else because there had to a place to go with all the side discussions. (Very condensed history.)

                  This is what wild success looks like.

                  My two cents: Why not open a work thread and a life thread on Friday and let both go all weekend? The life thread seems to taper off quicker than the work thread, so this may not be as daunting as it sounds. Okay, that was actually worth 1.5 cents…

                4. Salad*

                  Replying to not so new reader, I was going to suggest the same thing. Why not just open both on Friday? I don’t read the Saturday thread but I could just as easily skip over it on Friday

                5. tra la la*

                  I wouldn’t mind a work open thread on Saturdays in addition to the non-work post. By the time I get to the Friday post it’s already well over 1000 comments and I have no sense that anything I ask would be responded to. A Saturday work post might be smaller and more likely to be read just by people who want to, well, read a work post on Saturdays?

            2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              How would you feel about a Captain Awkward-style separate forum? I believe it’s run by fans of the blog and has little-to-no-involvement from the writers. (I’m not a CA person, only read a couple of posts a year from them, and have never visited the forum, so I may be totally wrong about how it works.)

              Perhaps some of the “community” stuff could funnel there and you could focus your time/the blog’s content more fully on workplace advice.

              (My bias: I would love to see less of the off-topic or nominally work-related chit-chat, so that’s the angle I’m taking in responding here.)

              1. Lily Evans*

                The CA forum is awful, though. They went so far overboard with rules for posting, and it’s just all oneupmanship for who is the most politically correct. Apparently it’s possible to try so hard to be inclusive that it turns into being unwelcoming. And I’m saying that as someone who’s incredibly liberal.

                1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                  Yep, that’s why I don’t really read CA. (Also a way-far-left liberal here.)

                2. Turtle Candle*

                  A lot of it is virtue signalling, yeah. A lot of online communities seem to get killed by virtue signalling overwhelming other kinds of content.

                3. LJay*

                  I don’t go there, but I’ve definitely had that experience in other online forums – where I was terrified to comment for fear of saying something that would offend someone accidentally.

                4. Lissa*

                  Yeah, I stopped reading after a woman wrote in in distress about her very bad situation involving a controlling religion, and the first comment was a mod chastising her about language use. I get there are environments where people want to never be exposed to the word “stupid”, but a place that prioritizes that above helping someone in an abusive situation is not the place for me.

                5. LilySparrow*

                  Yes, I like reading the blog and ovvasionally comment, but never joined the forum because I’m sure that somehow my grammar or sentence structure is going to violate the posting rules somehow.

            3. Shortbread*

              You can suggest folks start up a discord or a ProForum? I know that’s what the Toast did when Daniel moved over to Dear Prudence and they shuttered their site. Also Captain Akward has a similar setup with her “Friends of Capn Awkward” site.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                That gets suggested from time to time, but I know I don’t want forums; they tend to cannibalize traffic from where you want it and become monsters of their own.

          2. Jadelyn*

            This, so much. Soooo much. I’m really not a fan of the fairly draconian-feeling push for “nothing off topic, ever, at all” that’s been happening of late – conversations move organically sometimes, that’s just a thing people do when they’re talking to each other, but now it feels like absolutely no interpersonal interaction is allowed; you may address the OP and only the OP, or *very* narrowly reply to only directly agree or disagree with another commenter’s response to the OP. (I know that’s not the actual rule, but I’m talking about the way it comes off feeling.)

            I love the sense of community at AAM, it’s why I comment here (when I comment literally pretty much nowhere else). I make liberal use of the “collapse replies” function if I run across a tangent thread that I’m not interested in, it’s a great feature as it allows you to minimize only certain parts of the conversation and focus on others. I really feel like “use the collapse replies function if you don’t want to read an off-topic subthread” is a more reasonable expectation than “stop acting like a community in which people talk with each other”, which, again, is how the crackdown on off-topic threads has felt to me this week.

            Honestly, extending that crackdown even to the Friday open thread, which was like the one place I figured wouldn’t be affected, would have me just not even bother to look at the open thread anymore.

            2. Bagpuss*

              Yes, I get that going off topic can be irritating, but I feel I can manage it by collapsing comment threads which are off topic in a way I am not personally interested in.
              Also, I feel that it’s quite common for things to be off topic in that they don’t relate directly to the immediate question, but still be interesting or useful.
              If it’s off topic in the sense of diverging to funny stories about cats in response to a letter asking about allergies at work, then I see the point of cutting it off, but if it’s off topic in the sense of , for instance, discussions of workplace bullying even though the initial question was about workplace sexism, or other tangentially related issues, then it seems to me that to a great extent its a feature, not a bug. Police it too heavily and you dissuade people from commenting for fear of being rold off, or simply because there is no point as after the first few comments there is nothing new to saw, both of which make the comments less interesting to read.

              For long comment threads like the friday and weekend ones, I start by collapsing all, then skim through and expand ones which I think look interesting.

              1. JaneB*

                Me too- it’s a bit like when people complain about a TV show but keep watching – there’s an off button!

            3. There All Is Aching*

              Thanks for this, Jadelyn! Been feeling singled out for friendly banter that used to pass here, not realizing that suddenly the rules had changed. After a couple admonishments, I have a better handle on parameters going forward, though as Les G pointed out in last week’s open thread re: comments, it’s not necessarily being applied to everyone, which is less welcoming. The friendly banter (which counterbalances the repetitive, back-and-forth rants and overreactions that are permitted) is why I felt safe to start commenting to begin with.

        2. BRR*

          I would like this. I feel like it’s a full-time job to dig through the open thread for the comments I enjoy and want to read or comment on. Collapsable comments have helped somewhat. There are a few sub-topics I see every week that I don’t feel are adding anything or need commenting and unfortunately it can make it hard to find people who need some advice, often times with a time-sensitive issue.

        3. Matilda Jefferies*

          I’m just one data point here, but it seems to me that the open threads are pretty usable just as they are – lots of people are using them, right? They’re definitely huge and unwieldy for some people, but they’re also obviously valuable for others.

          My guess is that most people will either generally comment on open threads, or generally *not* comment on open threads, regardless of the format or content of the thread. Obviously you know your readership and your metrics better than I do, but I wonder what the margin is – how many people are out there who are not currently commenting on the open threads, but would start if only X or Y were different? If you do spend time changing X or Y, would that bring in more value relative to the work involved and/or the value that people are already getting?

        4. Tomato Frog*

          I like this idea. I don’t mind those sorts of comments, but when you actually need help and advice, it can feel like you’re at the Pool of Bethesda. Gotta get in early or no dice!

        5. Annie Moose*

          I dunno, I quite like the social stuff. Especially because comments are collapsible, I don’t find it that difficult to collapse and skim by comment threads I don’t care about.

          But–I’m not trying to use these threads for advice to begin with, so perhaps “usable” isn’t a metric I value anyway.

        6. SarahKay*

          Would it make a huge amount of extra work for you to do two open threads on Fridays? One for proper work advice and one for the more social items?
          I’ve found the advice aspect very useful in the past (especially since I’m in the UK but have a US manager so the US commenters can often give good perspective) but I also really enjoy reading the more social work items on other weeks.
          Basically, may I have my cake and eat it too?

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Well, we’ve already got the non-work thread on Saturday and I don’t really want two of them or it starts changing the whole character/point of the site (it’s already off-mission to have even one but there was popular demand for it).

            1. SarahKay*

              That’s fair enough. To me it feels like the Saturday non-work thread is different content-wise the ‘social work’ questions and comments on the Friday open thread but I can definitely see your point about how the site would now have two ‘Social’ threads. Even more so if it’s not really where you want the site to be in the first place :)

              1. As Close As Breakfast*

                The ‘social work’ comments are some of my favorite personally. I tried reading the Saturday thread but could never get into it, not that interested in what peoples favorite cookbook or yarn is or whatever. The “what’s annoying in your office this week” is what I find the most entertaining and are what keep me coming back every Friday. I like the ‘actual advice’ ones too, but find that they are often repetitive.

            2. Camellia*

              I already posted above, asking for two threads on Friday and also two threads on Saturday, for those who can’t make it to the Friday open ‘work’ thread for whatever reason.

              Maybe you could consider the non-work-related threads to be, I don’t know, maybe like team building exercises? Like, we all get to know each other a little better? Maybe have some gentle conversation and share differing viewpoints and gain insight to those other viewpoints? And helping us remember that ‘all work and no play makes Camellia a dull co-irker’? Whaddaya think?

        7. Mazzy*

          No! I blow off steam reading the ones where people complain about their jobs and coworkers. I’m not alone!

          What we can cut are the hypothetical “would you take a pay cut for your dream job” questions, when it’s just hypothetical.

          Or when someone posts a question without prep and too prematurely. For example, “ when do you know it’s time to go back to school?” Meanwhile they haven’t researched any schools and are just asking to ask.

          1. Mazzy*

            Or maybe temporarily ask that some recurring topics stop getting discussed? There are always loads of comments about how someone might have PTSD or that something is gendered. By now anyone who’s been to this site knows that someone is going to say that the person in the letter misbehaved because of past trauma. And we know that being asked to order food and sew can be gendered. Do we always need fifty comments expanding on these pretty basic and know topics?

            1. Jadelyn*

              Yes, but not everyone who’s reading a given post and/or thread is someone who’s already familiar with the site. I agree that the armchair diagnosing has gotten a bit much of late, but in particular I strongly object to the idea of “stop calling out sexist stuff as sexist, we already know” since 1: there are new people reading the site every day who maybe DON’T know, and 2: as long as people take a cavalier attitude toward the problem, there will continue to be a problem, and minimizing the issue by basically rolling one’s eyes and saying “ugh, we know already” is definitely part of that kind of issue.

              1. Mazzy*

                I don’t see cavalier/non-cavalier attitude as the thing. There definitely are times when these type of discussions can be overkill. I doubt there are so many newcomers everyday that we need to keep having the same exact discussions everyday, just in case they missed them. It’s hard to come up with an equivalent discussion without bringing in politics, but it would be the same as someone telling you their political stance every single day. At a certain point, you’re going to get stern with them and say that you already know what they think and you don’t need to discuss it every single morning.

            2. Turtle Candle*

              Regarding the PTSD stuff, it seems to be a variation of “not everyone can eat sandwiches!” It seems like it’s gotten common to reply to “why does my coworker hit me over the head with a broom every day?” with “well, maybe she has anxiety and that’s how she handles her triggers.”

              I do not say this to minimize triggers. In fact, quite the opposite. I think that it minimizes triggers to blame every bizarro-world behavior on them, especially when there’s no actual indication of it in the letter besides the bizarro-world behavior. Some people just do strange things.

              1. Mazzy*

                Exactly. Bringing up these things is actually what minimizes them, because it turns them into everyday pedestrian ideas and not the rarer, big deals that they are.

        8. hermit crab*

          I’m not sure if these would count, but I do really enjoy reading responses to general “what’s the typical _____?” questions, like “How much parental leave do people typically take in your organization?” or “What do people in your field typically wear when they present at conferences?” or “How does your organization handle raises and bonuses?”

          Those posters aren’t asking for specific advice, but I think the threads are interesting and let people share a wide range of perspectives.

          1. Sue No-Name*

            Agreed! Though those are also well-addressed when Alison does “ask the commenters” posts on interesting topics or advice requests.

          2. Llama Wrangler*

            Yeah, I think those are my favorite too! (Also I benefited a lot from the one I started on clothing norms.)

          3. As Close As Breakfast*

            Yes! These are also some of my favorites!

            And if it’s the 3rd time I’ve seen someone ask where they can get a good business wardrobe at a good price or when they should announce their pregnancy to their coworker this month, that’s what the collapse comments feature is for! That feature has made a world of difference when navigating the open thread.

          4. The Other Dawn*

            These are the types of posts that really helped me realize that the company I was with for almost 20 years wasn’t quite as functional and great as I thought, and neither were my managers. Only by reading these types of posts did I realize that there were some effed up things that went on and I thought they were perfectly fine because I didn’t know any better.

          5. Reba*

            There have been times when a whole post is dedicated to these kinds of threads (one I recall was just sharing tips/hacks) and those are fun. Corralling the survey-type commenting to those standalone posts might be a good compromise.

        9. Dear Liza dear liza*

          You get to decide the mission of this site, of course, but it’s the random stories I enjoy. There’s a certain amount of sameness to the advice requests: How do I become X (for a while, it seemed like project manager was asked about each week); should I go to grad school for Y; and What jobs would work for Z (wfh, non-drivers, the highly allergic, etc.).

          No matter what- thanks for all you do, AAM!

        10. JessicaTate*

          I’m fairly new to the site, but I prefer the part of the open thread that is actual questions and advice. To the OP’s question, that’s how I’ve been navigating the Friday thread: I’m scanning through for people with actual questions and those that are of interest to me – to learn from or to share advice.

          I actually appreciate people who start a post with “This is just to vent” or “I need advice” because it helps with scanning for whichever type of post you’re interested in. Could there be a way to self-categorize comments when you post – advice, venting/sharing, or hypothetical? I’ve seen some recipe sites do this, so that you can filter for comments that are from people who actually made it, questions about ingredients, or people who just want to comment to the author how yummy something looks in theory.

        11. The Dark Fantastic*

          I like the open threads as-is. They’re my favourite aspect of the site and I find them incredibly valuable. I think limiting them like that would make them boring and would reduce the sense of community and purpose found here.

        12. MotherRunner*

          I read daily and comment occasionally. My vote would be to keep the comments on the daily posts on topic, as you’ve been trying to do, but to keep the open threads (both work and non-work) the way they are. I find them to be a good mix of serious questions and lighter reading, and if something doesn’t interest me, i scroll past. I understand the importance of keeping the comments on the daily questions relevant, but I don’t see an issue with the open threads.
          My other thought is that if the thread is getting “hijacked” with a comment that’s not an actual question or a hypothetical or whatever, it’s obviosuly interesting and engaging to many readers.

      2. Lil Fidget*

        I think there are some commenters that like the social aspect and enjoy a more theoretical discussion and others who like a really direct ask-and-answer experience. To me there’s a distinction between the open thread which I never read and the work related thread which I do sort of skim through when I have time on Fridays.

      3. Observer*

        I read the Friday stuff – but no all of it. So, if I see a subject that I don’t think I’m going to find interesting, I just collapse it and go to the next thing. Some of the conversations on the open posts have been very useful or just interesting. And I agree that it helps to create a sense of community.

        The only time this becomes a problem, imo, is when it happens on other posts, but I see that Alison is trying to rein that in. Aside from that, whether I read the comments depends on how interesting I found the letters, and how I’m seeing the comments develop. Sometimes I have not patience or things are getting ugly in a way I don’t want to deal with. And sometimes, I’ll read some of the comments but not all. But as often as not, I’ll read the comments and really benefit.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Alison said last week that according to research only about 5% of people who read her page actually engage in the comments.

      I currently have a very light workload so I am always looking for things to keep me busy at work.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I didn’t give a number, but it’s less than 5%. (I don’t have a hard number, but it’s a very small portion of readership, maybe even less than 1%.)

        1. OperaArt*

          1-5% is absolutely average on almost any Internet community. The exact number depends on which studies you read. But those numbers have been consistent since I started reading Usenet newsgroups in the mid-1980s.

      2. Lil Fidget*

        I feel like a few years ago I started reading comments (on slate first, if I recall) and now am obsessed with comments. I read them on most media I consume now, and I never ever used to. To me the comments are equally as fascinating as the actual piece – they show how the article is landing, common counterpoints, etc. There are few blogs that I actually comment on myself, but I am a huge comment lurker. However, this is probably a subset of readers.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I tend to avoid the comments on most sites because they are so often awful. AAM is an exception because the commentariat here is largely knowledgeable and kind and it’s well moderated.

            1. Lil Fidget*

              Even terrible comments, if they’re not just obscenely stupid, are fascinating to me. I want to hear what Mens Rights people are saying on a feminist blog and what staunch conservatives are saying on an article about welfare reform … as long as there is some modicum of civility/respect, of course – like I wouldn’t read, I dunno, yahoo comments or something. Just the way they form their argument or what elements they’re particularly fixated on. I learn a lot that way because otherwise I’m in kind of a bubble/echo chamber. On Slate a lot of the comments are brutal and misguided, but I still think they’re very interesting. I find the comments on AAM are often super interesting and make me think differently, or at least reveal a kind of opinion I wasn’t aware was as common as it is.

              1. Mazzy*

                I very much agree. I learned a lot about tax laws and a few other topics from very conservative folks online. Yes I confirmed what they said, but I never would have thought of what they said without reading it.

        2. I Love Thrawn*

          I’m a long time comment lurker too. I rarely say anything because I come here to learn, and have little to contribute. Classic case of “if you have nothing to say, don’t say it.”

          1. Lil Fidget*

            That is what I SHOULD do, since it’s too easy to get sucked into sharing your own thoughts and opinions. I do have “blackout days” for myself where I don’t let myself comment. I have always struggled with hushing up though :P

            1. Jadelyn*

              Yeah, I’m there too – I installed a site blocker on my work computer to keep me from wasting too much time on here every day, lol.

          2. Robin Sparkles*

            Same -I mean I am no longer a lurker as I post once a month or so -but I get value from reading some comments and most often it’s been said. I am also the person that LOVES comments on most forums/blogs/sites and often read articles that have comments sections. Sounds like I may be that minority!

    3. Amber Rose*

      Nah. I either remember a few names to search for and see if they’ve posted anything interesting, or I just read the first and last 20 or so posts.

      I don’t really get feeling intimidated by large numbers of comments. Nobody’s quizzing you to see if you read them all, you know? Just skim through however many you feel like.

    4. Merida Ann*

      For the open thread at least: At lunch, when the thread has only been open for an hour or less, I’ll collapse all the threads and at least skim through all the first comments and then open the threads that sound interesting to me. Later in the day, when there’s too much to keep up with, I’ll just do a CTL+F search for certain key words that I find most interesting to read about (usually “-ism” or “-ist” to find discrimination issues or “accommodation”, but also anything that has come up recently at work that I’m interested to see if others are discussing) and also “Ask a Manager” to find places where Alison has commented directly.

      I try to follow the comments on posts that I think are most interesting, but there’s really no way to read everything on all the posts, especially when I’m at work and trying to read on breaks – there’s just too much content to get through it all.

      1. RockyRoad*

        I didn’t see the “collapse all threads” option at the top of the comment section until you mentioned it. I’ve been scrolling and collapsing each thread I wasn’t interested in reading until I got tired of it. Collapsing all from the start is so much better.

    5. the.kat*

      I still skim them if they look interesting, but I’ve stopped commenting (except for now) because no one ever seems to respond to my comments and people just shout over each other and repeat things over and over again.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        It IS a bummer that some posts will get dozens or hundreds of responses and others get none.

        It mostly seems like early posts get a lot of comments (obviously), and those that many folks have a lot of experience with (so, personal things as opposed to organizational things; “What questions should I be prepared to answer in an interview for an administrative assistant job?” vs. “I’m rethinking how to hire administrative assistants. Here’s our current practice, what do you think?”

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Whoops, didn’t finish that thought. The second para should have read like this:

          It mostly seems like early posts get a lot of comments (obviously), as do those that many folks have a lot of experience with (so, personal things as opposed to organizational things; “What questions should I be prepared to answer in an interview for an administrative assistant job?” vs. “I’m rethinking how to hire administrative assistants. Here’s our current practice, what do you think?”). But that’s just human nature! We respond to what resonates with us, and what resonates with us tends to be the things that we have experiences with.

          1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

            I think a part of that is that the Alison covers a lot of the basics already and some of the open questions have already been answered exhaustively or the question is just too broad, “How do I get a job?” is actually probably going to get no replies while, “I’m a print graphic designer and I haven’t updated my portfolio since 35mm slides were common; what’s the trend these days for presenting portfolios?” is probably going to get a much better response rate.

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              I actually think that some of “the basics” questions get a lot of responses — because a lot of us have experience with the question or possible answers.

    6. ballpitwitch*

      Yep. Way too many within 30 minutes of a post going up. Unless I have a lot of free time, I can’t engage meaningfully.

      Apparently all the regular commenters just sit here and refresh this page all day.

    7. Audiophile*

      I’ve backed off the open thread but not because of the increase in comments, more because my job has kept me so busy and I’ve been relatively content with it. I will say, that I’ll often think of questions mid-week and by the time the open thread is up, I’ve forgotten them.

      I do notice that the open threads seem to be much quieter around federal holidays and definitely easier to parse through on those days.

      1. acmx*

        I’ve thought before that it’d be nice to have the open thread on say Wed because by Friday, I’d forget a question. (I realize it would change the site quite a bit)

    8. Muriel Heslop*

      I start at the bottom of the thread, usually. The questions are just as interesting and much less overwhelmed by comments.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I feel bad for the comments that come in in the end, those typically have very few replies.

        Personally I find that if I don’t post within the first hour, I won’t get much advice or feedback so I don’t post. Didn’t realize this is a bad thing to do?

    9. gecko*

      I’ve backed off a bit. Less because of the number of comments and more because I’m now pretty aware of the people who hate-read the comments. You’re always going to get that kind of thing, but it’s really off-putting to–for instance–read a fine if characteristic comment by a regular commenter and have replies below from people who are clearly hate-reading/hate-commenting. I am also quite uninterested in becoming visible enough to annoy a jerk on the internet, and so I comment a bit more sparingly than I used.

    10. Bob*

      I skim more but I still like having the thread as it is. Some of the hypothetical questions raised might be valuable to someone or lead to interesting discussion. Same thing with some of the general discussions around workplace norms and cultures. If anything I would say one approach might be more open threads but perhaps gear them to more specific topics. So one midweek perhaps only for ‘specific work questions’, one on Friday for anything generally work related and the weekend threads for no work.

    11. Ask a Manager* Post author

      While we’re talking comments: I wanted to mention that I’m processing all the feedback from the comments discussion on last week’s open thread and have my tech person looking into whether she can build a few of the features that I think would be most helpful. #1 on my list is requiring registration in order to comment, but it’s something she’d need to be able to build on to the existing system (the off-the-shelf stuff won’t work for a variety of reasons, and I’m not willing to use Disqus or Facebook comments, which would be the easiest solutions). I’ve also asked her to look into whether she can build a function that would send a person’s comments to moderation on a specific post after they’ve left X number of comments on that post; a way to flag comments that doesn’t automatically remove them after a certain number of flags (the problem with all the existing flagging systems); and a way to turn off replies to a subthread.

      I’m also considering have the site-wide default be that comments are collapsed, and you’d have to proactively click if you wanted them expanded. The big downside of that would be that if you leave a reply to a top-level comment, when the page refreshes after you submit it, you’re not going to be taken to the reply you just left (since it will be collapsed). You’d instead be taken to the top of the comment section. That may be too much of a downside, but I’m mulling.

      Beyond that, I’m considering formally polling readers on some other potential changes to the way the comment system works. So, updates and more discussion coming soon.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I think registration would be very helpful, though I wonder how that would work when a regular wants to ask a question that they don’t want associated with their regular name. Though it would be very cool if registering provided an option to message another commenter directly.

        Flagging and freezing subthreads would also be very useful functions.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Haha registration is something I would personally avoid although I understand the wider benefits. I am super paranoid about somebody being able to look back through all my comments and knowing a lot more about myself than I realized I was revealing. Especially if a friend or colleague was looking, I don’t doubt they could figure out who I was pretty quickly. That’s why I try to switch user names a lot. It’s not because I want to flout the rules or attack people :P

          2. Persimmons*

            Same. I try to post in good faith, but I’m ultra-cautious about my e-footprint in general.

          3. nep*

            Yes–no-registration is a main attraction for me here. I probably wouldn’t comment if I had to register. Which would be fine. I really like not having to register.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              I would be totally done if I had to register through FB. I am so glad you said no FB registrations, Alison.

              Well, I’d miss ya, nep, if you did not register and comment but I do understand. I think probably some other interesting posters would also not register. Bare minimum if my name is on a registration some where out there in cyberspace, I’d have to rope in my comments for sure.

              And I get a little concerned. We have had people here who were having serious problems. I think we have been that friendly voice in the wilderness for more than a few people. I wonder what will happen to people like this.

              1. Jean (just Jean)*

                NSNR, This is a really good point. AAM’s commentariat seems to be the occasional beacon of hope. I suspect that this community has some collective credibility for folks seeking help, thanks to the generally thoughtful tone (meaning both “is well-informed about the topic of discussion” and “values the well-being of other people”). AAM has a track record of responding to cries of help with compassion. It’s definitely not the slugfest one sees in other comment sections, where insults pingpong between opposing sides and the level of discourse rarely ascends from the gutter.

                Sorry that the above paragraph became a run-on sentence. After a long week my brain is tired.

          4. Mad Baggins*

            Same, I would stop commenting if registration was required. I am concerned about logging into anything not-strictly-work-related on my work computer, and many of us comment on our breaks/etc.

        2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          I used to be on a forum that had an option to post anonymously for certain topics. Perhaps something like that could be incorporated if registration comes into effect?

      3. BRR*

        For the flagging systems, would an easy work around be to set the number of flags required for removal super high (i.e. unachievable)?

        Thank you for being so responsive to the comment situation, not using disqus or facebook, and keeping it an open and transparent process!

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          That was my thought too! But it turns out that they wouldn’t actually email me when people flagged a comment! They don’t alert the site owner at all, until the number of flags is high enough that the comment has already been removed. It’s so bizarre. I would think that would be the flagging function most people would want. There’s one system I found that doesn’t work like this, but it’s not a standalone; to use it, you have to get a whole bunch of other features that I don’t want. It’s very frustrating! That’s why I’m finally wondering if I just need to have it all built specially.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            hmm. I wonder if there is someone here who would take that on…perhaps gratis or at a very reduced rate? In order for that type of offer, it would have to be someone who sees the high value of what is happening here.

      4. Batty Twerp*

        I like the site-wide collapsed thread idea. For me, at least, the only reason to see my post after I hit submit is so I can cringe at my terrible wording and/or grammar/spelling mistakes, because apparently my bluetooth keyboard hates me if I type moret han three consencutive lines!

      5. LCL*

        One feature that Reddit has that is sometimes very useful is the ability to block certain users from your view. Their posts still show up on the general page, but if they are on your blocked list you don’t see them.

        1. Mad Baggins*

          I’ve used this on other forums before and found it very helpful. Some people have a style or pet topic that I’m not a fan of, but they shouldn’t be banned from the community. In place of their post it just said [hidden post, click to view] and if someone was responding to that I could choose whether or not to view that hidden post.

      6. On Fire*

        Alison, another thing that might help keep threads organized on the five-short-answer posts: what if you did an initial comment for each question, and all comments for that question are to be posted as replies to your comment? Much like last week when you asked that all the answers about health initiatives be posted under your reply, it could be something as simple as “If you have advice for LW #2, please post it as a reply here.” (Repeat for each letter.) Might be easier for the OPs to find answers to their specific situation, instead of sorting through all the comments. Just a thought.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It would require me to be online at midnight every night to set it up, unfortunately. (There’s no way to pre-program comments in to publish once the post publishes.)

      7. Nita*

        Registration is kind of good and bad. I see the value in it, but really like not having it here. Is it going to be good at “remembering” that one is logged in? I used to comment on a forum with a horrible mobile interface, and the registration was the worst part – the login was slow, had to be done over if you just looked away from the page for ten minutes to check the weather, kept logging out right in the middle of typing a comment, and is basically the best deterrent to commenting that they could have created. They’re definitely a worst-case scenario, but… yeah. Registration can be a problem if it’s not done well.

      8. Merida Ann*

        I worry that the default to collapse would lead to a lot more pile-ons / repeat comments because people won’t immediately see that there are already lots of posts responding with the same point. Unless there’s a way that you have to expand that thread before replying to ensure that you see what others have responded before posting your own reply, maybe?

        1. Windchime*

          It seems like the people who are the worst about piling on are already not reading the comments. They’ll say things like, “I haven’t read the comments but [repeat of something that Alison and 50 other commenters have already said].” I think that if people would just read a few comments first, they would see that it’s already been said and doesn’t really need to be said again.

      9. There All Is Aching*

        Very cool about the polling. Would be helpful to be more specific about what constitutes derailing on the site. After a couple recent blips, I get it re: language, jokes, etc.; it’s less clear on other threads because what isn’t being allowed now seems different than what was allowed before the comment PIP, and seemingly not applied in a blanket way to all comment threads. I suppose best policy is not to answer other commenters’ follow-up questions to comments?

      10. Serious Sam*

        Alison, the problem is that your wonderful site has completely outgrown the comments system. Some nice to haves:
        1. Ability to give a single-line title to your post.
        2. Ability to collapse just down to titles.
        3. Ability to up/down vote.
        4. Ability to sort by up/down vote to see the most popular/most insightful posts.

        I do not know how much spam and abuse you have to filter out, but I really would prefer not to have yet another user ID & password to remember.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It absolutely has outgrown the comment system! I’ve done a lot of research into other comment systems because I would love something different. Unfortunately the options out there are really not good if you have a lot of commenting traffic and don’t want to use Disqus or Facebook comments (which I don’t*). My tech person keeps a whole separate site that’s a mirror of this one, where we can install other set-ups to test them out, and we’ve tested out a bunch. Unfortunately this current one is still the best of all the options. It’s incredibly frustrating and I am continually surprised that I can’t find one that functions the way I’d want.

          * I don’t want Disqus for loads of reasons which you can find if you google “don’t use Disqus” and I don’t want Facebook comments because people generally want to be anonymous here.

          1. hermit crab*

            To be fair, there are still a lot of good things about the site’s comment system! Even disregarding the content, I like the clean format, the blue highlighting for new posts, the blue shading for Alison’s posts, and the fact that it doesn’t use a system like Disqus or Kinja — and I love love love the collapse all feature (and I assume other people like these things too). Don’t lose sight of that!

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Thanks! Kudos go to my tech person for building the blue line highlighting and the collapse-all feature. Those were not part of the system and she had to find a way to build them into the existing comment set-up without destroying anything else, which is harder than it sounds.

              1. Anonymosity*

                I really like collapse all; I’d rather see them and collapse the ones I don’t want to read than having to click every single thing to open it. Because sometimes, I like to scroll a little bit to see if the comments look interesting on a post, but I don’t want more clicks.

          2. epi*

            I have been an active commenter on a couple of sites that used Disqus, and a reader of many more, so I did Google it out of curiosity.

            I can’t speak to the back end issues some bloggers said they experienced, but I will say I never noticed *any* of them on blogs I used that switched. Random affiliate links in blog text and sponsored comments simply didn’t happen. I would be really curious how common those issues even are because I have never seen them on any site I read. Some of the top Google results also include blog posts that are years old and their information about Disqus is out of date. For example, Disqus does not require social sign on. I have a stand-alone Disqus account and it works great and is easy to log in to. While there were users who didn’t like the switch, people who were regular constructive commenters all valued the community enough to adapt. As for reducing comment volume, that isn’t universal and isn’t part of the problem here that sometimes there are way too many comments? I would bet money that many of the comments that disappeared were people who would have said “I agree” under the old system, but switched to just upvoting under Disqus. That’s a good thing.

            On the other hand, I really like Disqus for a reason that might be useful on your site: blocking. Commenters that most people find rude or derailing end up getting blocked by so many people, they aren’t able to derail threads in the future. I am almost never harassed in those communities anymore because I can block people for myself without contacting a moderator. I find communities that have features like blocking, ignoring/collapsing conversations, etc. more welcoming than those that don’t. It doesn’t have to be Disqus but in my experience it does cut down on derailing and negativity, as well as safety issues like actual harassment.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              My issues are the ads (which are still very much a thing they will add if you monetize your site), the large number of tech issues, the fact that Disqus then has control over your comments (if Disqus goes down, which happens, the whole comment section disappears for that period), privacy (people don’t always want the same login across multiple sites), and the fact that a not insignificant number of workplaces block Disqus completely. I’d love it if I could use it — it would solve a ton of problems. But all these factors make it a no for me.

        3. Canadian Jessie*

          One other point of view in support of the Up-vote system (Or a facebook-“like”-type system)
          It could reduce the amount of posts that just say “I agree!” or the rehashing of the same advice in their own words, as by voting, or liking, they’ll be able to give strength to the opinion stated, without adding to the jumble of comments.

        4. Annie Moose*

          I am a hard no to voting on comments, unless it’s a purely upvote system. We have a bad enough problem with pile-on and popular-but-not-necessarily-correct comments getting a lot of attention without turning the comments section into Reddit. It is not an accident that many well-moderated subreddits hide voting arrows.

          1. Annie Moose*

            One thing that I do think would be helpful is a report button (to be used for abusive posts or cases where someone is posting the same thing a milliontimes). However, that too can be abused.

          2. Mad Baggins*

            I agree. I like the option to “like” a post without having to comment, but only if it doesn’t accumulate into points. I would be able to show my support for Annie Moose’s comment without commenting myself. But I think even a pure upvote system would just result in 4892 upvotes for Alison’s replies and no actual benefit to the comment section.

        5. Not So NewReader*

          I really like titling the post, especially the main post for a thread. But titles may have a hidden advantage, titles may help to control derailments, as a writer would have to consider how on topic their post will be.

        6. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          I really like the idea of #4 with a bit of a tweak. The ability to sort the order according to preference. Maybe the ability to have new comments at the top instead of having to scroll down, or most/least commented on.

      11. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        One other consideration with defaulting to collapsed comments (which I do): it means that linking to a subcomment doesn’t work. (So, when you occasionally link to a useful old comment that wasn’t a first-level comment, the link doesn’t work for folks who have comments collapsed as default; it just takes us to the main blog post.) I still vastly prefer collapsed comments as my own default, so it’s not big deal — but just FYI.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Ugh, that’s such a good point. Maybe I just need to make the collapse/expand options up top more prominent so that more people realize they’re there.

      12. JLCBL*

        I very rarely comment so I’m not sure how much weight my opinion will carry, but I do read many of the comments regularly and I know I am not alone in that. I have the default set to collapse all comment threads so I can pick and choose what I really want to read. I find this perfect because I get lost in the voluminous expanded threads unless I’ve just opened them. If there is a large number of sub-comments I am very likely to expand because it indicates the level of engagement is high. A requirement to register to leave comments would turn me off completely, since I think the anonymity is crucial and it would become even more insider-clique-y, with fewer viewpoints expressed.

      13. Anonymosity*

        Alison, I just want to say thank you for soliciting feedback from your readers. It’s your site and you could just say, “I’m gonna do what I think is best; suck it!” But you really engage with us, and I deeply appreciate that.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It’s great for me! It helps me make better decisions for the site, and also to give people context for behind-the-scenes stuff.

          I do feel bad in threads like these when it seems like I end up shooting down suggestion after suggestion. Part of that is because I’ve already done a lot of exploring of ideas that do seem like they’d be good until you dig into the details of implementing them, and part of it is that people want a bunch of conflicting things (for every person who loves the idea of X, there’s another person who hates it) and so ultimately I’m left with having to make judgment calls about what’s best for the site big-picture rather than just taking a vote. I explain all that to say, please keep the input coming — even though I can’t implement all of it, it’s still really useful to hear the discussion.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            I really appreciate your willingness to keep the comments in order! There are very few forums/comment sections that I frequent, because it’s so easy for them to turn into toxic hellholes of some sort.

            Personally, I like the fact that you crack down on off-comment chit-chat. I can understand why a lot of regulars like it, but once you go down that road, the comment section tends to change from discussions about the column to a social place for the regulars to hang out and chat about random stuff, which is fun for them, but decidedly unwelcoming for new people and not at all useful for regarding topic in the column.

            1. Windchime*

              Exactly! This is how Corporette has become. They don’t even pretend to discuss the topic of the post; the comments are almost immediately hijacked with some other random topic.

      14. Marthooh*

        I use the “default collapse” option to keep the threads manageable, and when I make a comment, I search the page for my name (or for the name on the top-level comment). That little bit of extra trouble makes me think before I hit the “Submit” button. I don’t think that’s a downside.

    12. Murphy*

      I don’t try to read them all. I read new top posts when they come in, and I comment if I’m interested. Then later I just search for my username. I’m sure I miss some good conversations that way, but it would be too much otherwise.

      1. Observer*

        That’s mostly what I do, too. Also, sometimes I’ll search for the name of the latter writer, if they have commented and I see their name.

    13. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      With the open threads in particular I tend to look for comments that have a larger amount of replies actually, to find the questions or stories that have gained the most attention. Plus longer reply threads tend to have more varying degrees of opinions in them. I keep all the comments collapsed and just expand the ones that have more than 10-ish comments.

      That being said I usually don’t have a lot of advice to give since I’m young in my career, so I am more interested in reading advice from the more experienced commenters.

    14. CheeryO*

      My only issue with the open thread is that it seems borderline useless for anyone who can’t get in with their question within the first hour or two. I’ll refresh later in the afternoon when my day is winding down (understanding that the world doesn’t revolve around EST!) and there are always SO many questions at the bottom with no or very few responses, while a question about clothes or hair or tattoos up top will have a hundred comments that mostly say the same thing. I’m perfectly happy to collapse comments on those threads and ignore them, but I feel bad for people who are looking for advice and don’t know that they need to post at 11:02AM.

      I do appreciate Alison’s recent effort to keep things more on-topic. The personal anecdotes that spiral off in all directions are a major pet peeve, although I’ll admit that I’m not really here for the social aspect.

    15. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I might be out of the norm, but I tend to actually skip the posts that don’t have many comments because I feel like I’d be talking into the void. I don’t like off-topic comments but if there is lively on-topic activity, I’m drawn in more to read and participate.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Also, while the volume of comments by the end of the day might keep some away — I think it might also be just timing. Since Alison is on the US East Coast I seem to default to that time zone when calculating active times on this site. I’m in California so I’m usually just getting up by the time there are already 100+ comments on a post and it doesn’t bother me; and then at the end of the day, I’m no longer sitting at a computer so not likely to participate after 5:00 pm pacific time anyway and I assume that’s the way for most people — there are times of the day they are active online. I look forward to the Friday work-related discussions but completely avoid the weekend open discussions.

        Alison do you have any idea of where the majority of your readers are located? Am I off base in thinking that the site is going to be more active between 8 am-5 pm eastern time?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          The most active time is about 8 am – 7 pm Eastern. But there’s generally a pretty steady stream of comments at other times too, just not at the same pace.

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        I actually agree, the lively comments section is part of what I come for. If there’s not a lot of comments and nobody’s talking, I might just assume Alison nailed it / the question wasn’t super complex and there was only one answer – which are the less interesting questions for me. I love the ones where people have very different perspectives on the same question.

        1. There All Is Aching*

          Me too! I also love Alison’s response to them; nice to feel part of an AAM dialogue, even if you’re not contributing to that particular thread!

        2. Jadelyn*

          Agreed – I glance at the number of comments when I decide whether to go look at them, and higher numbers are actually more intriguing to me, since it suggests that people are really engaging with the topic.

    16. Chaordic One*

      Things sort of depend on how busy I am. When I’m not busy, I spend more time reading AAM.

      Not to be rude about things, but I suspect that many readers will find AAM a valuable resource, but then they’ll get that great job, get busy with it and kind of move away from AAM.

      Also, if you’ve been reading AAM for any length of time you’ll notice that certain subjects come up over and over again. If you’ve already read about them a few times, you kind of tune out when they come up. OTOH, there are always new situations that come up. Also, the “search” feature on this site works very well and you can usually find information about a specific situation fairly easily.

    17. Turtle Candle*

      I have backed off, yeah, and part of it is that I can see a mile off when someone (and often I can even pinpoint which someone, based on the comments!) is going to have a Very Strong Opinion and leave ninety-seven comments, two-thirds of which are yelling down any disagreement, however mild. Often with ‘you just want people to starve in the gutter’ rhetoric. It has a chilling effect, for sure.

      I have stopped opening any comments that mention internships, for instance, because of that. (Not just internships; that’s the example that leaps to mind.) And the thing is, I usually agree with them re: a lot of internships being problematic. But I don’t want to see the So-and-So Show, and I feel a lot of “dude, get off my side” about it, and it’s… exhausting.

      (This isn’t just one person, though there are repeat offenders. It’s just… it’s really tiring. And, yeah, puts me off the comments entirely.)

      1. Turtle Candle*

        (And in a larger sense, I think that sniping/scolding/chastising has an even greater chilling effect, but that’s another topic.)

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah, I agree. And I’m thinking through possible solutions to that (including limiting the # of comments someone can make on a post or more strongly enforcing the “don’t belabor your point” commenting rule).

        1. Phoenix Programmer*

          I don’t like the idea of having a hard cap on commenting personally. If 50 people think x but 2 thinks y it’s normal that the 2 will have more comments. A lot of people reply to comments they disagree with and I don’t see responding/answering as overly belaboring the point. Plus if you are personally not interested in departing the view of the 2 collapse that comment.

          1. Phoenix Programmer*

            *reply to comments they disagree with questions. I don’t see answering as belaboring a point.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            The issue is when someone posts essentially the same comment 15 times in an argumentative fashion. Someone last week described it as feeling like the person is attempting to bludgeon anyone who disagrees into silence, and that’s what I want to discourage.

            That said, any change I make is going to have both an upside and a downside. I’m just trying to figure out where the ups outweigh the downs.

            1. Observer*

              That’s where stronger enforcement of the rule makes sense. The real problem is the amount of time that could take.

          3. LJay*

            But then that gives a disproportionate sense of what the feelings of the readership actually are.

            If the 50 people who think X each post 1 comment, and the 2 people who post Y each post 25 comments, then the OP or other readers come away with the sense that X and Y both have equal support, when they really really don’t.

            It seems to happen quite a bit. I’ve seen several times where someone on an update p0st says “The last time this was posted everyone said Y.” Then Allison or someone else goes back and goes “Really only a couple of people said Y, most people said X.” But when the people saying Y comment just as much as the people who are saying X, they don’t seem like the minority.

            And you really really don’t have to post to every comment that disagrees with you. I know I have the instinct and desire to, too, and I’ve been trying to tamp down on it this past week. It’s enough to say your piece once and be done with it, and accept the fact that some people may not see it.

        2. nep*

          I’m certainly guilty of belaboring a point. It’s good to read through this and have a reminder to just sit and chill. Not every thought has to be a post. (!)

    18. Matilda Jefferies*

      I don’t mind the volume, but I’m finding the intensity a bit much lately. The comments in general seem to be really crabby, compared to what I remember when I first started reading. There seems to be a lot of “I would QUIT IMMEDIATELY!” or “That is COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS!!!!” going on lately, as if even the moderate sorts of situations require a nuclear-level response.

      Take today’s short answer thread, for example. I would find the offer of a cruise to be a bit odd, and possibly boundary pushing, but it doesn’t necessarily rise to the level of awfulness that some commenters have suggested. Or telling someone about your dream – again, it’s not something that’s normally done in the workplace, but it wouldn’t cause me to question the boss’ judgement on a larger scale. It just seems very extreme – there seem to be a lot of people taking everything to eleven, and not a lot of people saying things like “eh, that’s kind of weird, but whatever.”

      2. Robin Sparkles*

        I am right there with you- a lot of comments make it seem as if most AAM readers are extreme introverts, anti-social, have anxiety disorders, and are all rockstar employees that can do the work of 5 people. It’s obviously not true but that’s what it has felt like lately. I started reading this blog in 2015 and it has gotten more intense since then.

        1. Turtle Candle*

          Yes! I’m an introvert who doesn’t necessarily love socializing with her coworkers, and who doesn’t particularly care for office baked goods, and yet even I find the “if you have cupcakes for birthdays you are THE CANCER THAT IS KILLING SOCIETY, also plus you probably want celiacs to die, and even if all your coworkers seem to like the cupcakes they’re probably lying to you, which I know as a stranger who has never met them but you couldn’t possibly know as someone who interacts with them daily” stuff a bit much. It’s all just… very… intense.

          1. Shortbread*

            Also you need to be really careful about what kind of coffee drink you bring to a meeting. You don’t want to be viewed as immature or unhealthy/weird. I have literally never thought about my meeting drink and was positively floored that so many people seemed to care.

            1. Windchime*

              Yeah that one was really funny to me. I work in downtown Seattle; there is a Starbucks on nearly every block (I know of a building who has two Starbucks in the same lobby). Walking into a meeting with a Starbucks is so very, very common here. Nobody would think anything about it.

        2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          +1 Sometimes the “I’m the exception!” tends to take over and it doesn’t really add to the discussion. If someone comes here looking for advice, I assume they want to know what the average expectation should be (adjusted for region and industry), not all of the special circumstances.

          1. Turtle Candle*

            Yes, exactly. An excellent example of this is food posts. Whenever someone writes in to say “can I ask my coworker to not eat peanut butter next to me because I’m violently allergic/microwave tunafish because it smells really bad?” the comments get taken up with everyone feeling obliged to say what foods they loathe coworkers eating. According to AAM comments taken as a whole, it is wrong to eat: tuna, popcorn, yogurt, curry, noodles, yogurt, apples, peaches, crackers, peanut butter, almond butter, sunflower butter, carrot sticks, any kind of salad, lunch meat sandwiches, anything with mustard, eggs in any form, granola bars, cereal, oatmeal, bagels, anything with butter, pickles or pickled anything, cheese, leftovers of any kind, soup, and water.

            I mean, obviously that’s because it’s an aggregate. But everyone feeling obliged to show up and say “I’m the exception in this way!” gives an aggregate sense that everything is impossible to eat… when in fact in any given workplace you’re likely to only encounter a couple things that you shouldn’t eat.

      4. LJay*

        Yeah. Like I saw a bunch of people diagnosing the boss as being a malicious boundary violator, because the OP objected to going on the cruise on the basis on not having enough vacation time or money to bring her boyfriend, and the boss said, “Hey, I can fix those things for you so you can go.”

        If she had clearly communicated, “Hey, this just isn’t my thing,” or “I hate boats” and he tried to convince her otherwise that would be jerky and boundary violating. But offering to remove logistical hurdles that he has he ability to remove to allow her to do something that he clearly sees as a nice thing? I can’t see that as jerky.

        I see the same thing on Reddit a lot. People over there are obsessed with referring people to r/raisedbynarcissists. And really, narcissists are a very low percentage of the population. Just being a jerk doesn’t make someone a narcissist. And in some cases, the person isn’t being a jerk, they’re just doing something reasonable or setting a reasonable boundary that the poster doesn’t like.

        I think it may bother me more than it should because I’ve generally found in my life that I’m better off assuming good intent (unless it’s absolutely demonstrated otherwise) than I am jumping to the conclusion that someone is purposefully being terrible to me.

        And I feel like it kind of cheapens the term abuser to refer to people as an abuser so cavalierly. Like, I’ve been in abusive relationships before. My parents are not great parents. I didn’t come to the conclusion that they were abusive because I said, “I’d love to do A, but unfortunately B came up,” and then they said, “Oh, well if B is a problem, I can do C for you to fix that.”

        Like, I think the cruise thing is weird. It’s super weird. I wouldn’t want to go. But I wouldn’t take it as a sign that the boss was testing my boundaries and going to take advantage of me in the future because he offered it or offered to help his lowest paid employee to afford it.

        1. Lissa*

          Too much internet has really made me think that 90% of the population has multiple abusive relations/exes, food allergies, phobias, etc. Also everyone is an introvert while also liking to point out how rare they are for being an introvert. I also think terms like abuser, gaslighting, narcissist, bullying etc. start out great to explain that someone’s not just a garden variety jerk, or having an asshole moment, but the problem is then those terms DO start being used to describe someone who’s having a jerk moment (like we all do!) and it kind of…devolves into a weird competition of who can scream loudly about how many evil bees/nopetopus a situation is. This is by far not just an AAM issue, like you said, it’s a lot of internet spaces – anything goes wrong with your job? Quit! Your sister asked when you and your husband are having kids? Boundary violation! Your friend got drunk and was an ass once? Cut them off, toxic! etc.

    19. Villanelle*

      Yes. I’ve been reading since the blog was relatively new – probably about 2009/10.
      Recently, the comments have gotten out of control and this unfortunately has been partly down to the light moderation (which I get – Alison has paid work to do that keeps a roof over her head and cats to pet and life stuff) and I welcome Alison’s comments about trying to improve things given the popularity of the blog.

      Things of note:
      – regular commenters chastising others/the LW’s
      – regular commenters posting very similar advice to Alison on every.single.post
      – the off topic comments and whining
      – the fact that some posters completely answer a totally made up question to the one posed in a post, especially if they are fairly regular and it then spirals

      I have noticed an improvement this week due to Alison being around more and I appreciate it.

      1. WellRed*

        The comments where people fill in their own backstory of trauma on why a particular situation might be bad when there’s no evidence that’s an issue and wouldn’t change the advice anyway. Yes, it’s a bad idea to give your coworker an “office mom” mug. It’s inappropriate always, doesn’t matter if the coworker’s mom might be estranged/abusive/dead or same coworker might be infertile/strugglingtogetpregnant or have children that are addicted/estranged/dead.
        Not Relevant.

      2. WellRed*

        Agreed, Villanelle. I’ve actually rethought a comment or two of my own and didn’t submit.

        1. Villanelle*

          me as well – because what’s the point of me saying it when it’s already been said – what am I adding to the discussion? It doesn’t mean I’m not enjoying the post or discussion by not commenting (which is a small number anyway)

      3. Rey*

        I am relatively new in the last two months, and this is the only site that I try to comment on. Usually, on the Friday open threads, I collapse comments and then skim for things I’m interested in and posts that don’t have any replies. I love the current comment section (blue line for new posts and blue highlighting for Allison’s posts). I hate the idea of registering and it would probably discourage me from commenting in the future (although apparently comments are 1-5% anyway, so maybe that doesn’t matter). I would like to be able to edit my comments, or delete comments if the OP responds that that’s not what they meant or something. Do you have to allow comments on every post? Some of the short answer questions seem like they really don’t need to have comment sections, whereas you could of course turn it on for the ask-the-readers and open-threads.

      4. Which Way*

        Oh god, the regular posters who don’t seem to bother reading Alison’s advice and just post their own which somehow just happens to mirror Alison’s. Those are the posts I could do without. It’s so sycophantic!

    20. Twenty Points for the Copier*

      I think for me it varies based on how busy I am with work.

      The large number of comments doesn’t really bother me, since I tend to collapse threads and read the ones I’m interested in. I will say that I really enjoy some of the ongoing updates on people’s job searches/work lives and some (but not all) of the questions thrown out to the group about “weird thing at work this week” or “what was your COLA raise?” The ones I find dull aren’t a problem now that there’s the collapse thread feature.

    21. Phoenix Programmer*

      I’ve dropped out from reading as much but it’s mostly due to time constraints on my end. Overall I like having a lot a voices. Before the site became so popular a couple years ago I felt like the ENT section could be a bit of a. Echo chamber and while it’s a tad annoying to have 5 people comment “this is rude to the OP” at practically the same time I find that overall the commebts are actually more positive then they were in 2012-2015. People use to get very personal in their attacks on hot button social issues back then.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        That’s actually in line with my theory — which is that nothing has really changed significantly here, except that the increased volume amplifies the problems that have always been around. I’ve been hearing “the comments were so much better a few years ago” for years now (and I’ve been having periods where I myself agonize over problems in the comment section for years now too). It’s the same stuff — it’s just way more annoying when there’s more of it, which higher comment traffic does.

    22. Penguin*

      I often don’t read the comments on daily posts, but I do read the Friday and Weekend threads. I find that hiding all threaded comments, and then only reading the replies on questions that interest me, really helps to cut down on the overwhelming feel of the many, many comments.

    23. AnonymousCelebrity*

      I have not backed off from reading AAM comments. But I have made use of the “collapse all” feature. Some topics I find more interesting than others. I also make use of the “sub-collapse” feature within threads when comments descend into hair-splitting, baseless conjecture, armchair diagnostics, personal agendas/histories/filters, or repetitious orations.

      As far as the format of the comments here, I have found the comments section of the Washington Post online to have the best format in terms of usability (not the quality of the comments; there are some real raving lunatics who post there, unlike here, where IME most folks are civil).

      The WaPo comments section lets me ignore specific users/commenters, lets me edit comments if I do so within a short time after I’ve submitted a comment, lets me flag comments for cause (foul language, spam, etc.), lets me view comments by “newest/most recent,” “oldest,” and “most popular/replied to.”

      As far as registering, I wouldn’t care. I don’t post things I’m shy about, and I don’t post things online anywhere that I would be reluctant to say to someone’s face. However, I can see that registering and posting under a consistent user name could be a real problem for some readers/commenters who come here for support dealing with very personal and sensitive topics and situations.

      I like the comments section here. It, plus the New York Times online comments section, is one of the most civil, entertaining, informative comment sections I’ve come across. As far as some of the comments here being a bit hyperbolic, using all caps, that sort of thing, I don’t care. I just scroll on by. Mostly I read the comments for entertainment, with the occasional nugget of useful information. I don’t tend to take this stuff personally or internalize it. It’s just online comments made be people I don’t know and never will. If something’s boring or silly, I can just scroll on by. And that’s what I do. Takes a couple of seconds. NBD IMO.

    24. Lore*

      I just had an idea that I’m hoping wouldn’t be any more work but might corral comments a little. What if the standard Friday 11 am open thread had a topic—a broad one, like interviewing or office culture or relating to your boss? And then in what would normally be the 2 pm slot, do the current open thread? I’m thinking that shifting the time to later and also siphoning off a chunk of loosely related comments to their own post might a) keep the numbers in each more manageable, b) give people who are overwhelmed by the free for all/ random nature of the open thread a place with a little more focus but still allowing almost everyone to participate, but c) also keep the spot for either truly one off situations or survey type questions.

    25. Zona the Great*

      What bothers me most of all is the policing that commenters do to each other and then the subsequent pile-on. The policing can be worse than the offender in many cases.

  27. Audiophile*

    Happy Friday! If only it was a pay day. Looking forward to next week and having Labor Day off.

    I’ve been told that I be getting promoted soon to director level, however, the title that’s been proposed would put me down a path that I’m not really looking to go in. I’m hoping there’s a way to suggest another title option that will encompass the larger scope of work I’ll be doing. Any suggestions?

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      Two thoughts: First, I am not sure about your field, but something that I’ve found in my field (education/non-profits), and which I think Alison has mentioned in general, is that my title matters a lot more than my resume/job description/ability to talk about transferrable work. My last title was very odd (AND the job was down a path I wasn’t looking to go down) and I had no problem justifying my qualifications for jobs I was applying to. But that I was because (I think) I had an explicit narrative about my skills in my cover letter that played up the way my job had been related to what I was doing, and was able to talk about those skills in my interviews.

      Second, if you are going to push for a different title, I think you’ll have the best luck showcase how other similar organizations or roles are titled. I got the furthest in my push to get my old title changed by demonstrating how it would be confusing to clients (I did a lot of client work) because it meant something different than what I was actually doing in most other organizations, and by showcasing a number of different options that were closer to my actual area of work. But they’ll likely want it to be parallel to what other titles in the org are, so you may want to look at those and see if that gives you any sense of what is possible.

      1. Audiophile*

        I’m in the nonprofit field as well, but not sure that I’m going to stay in the nonprofit field, beyond the next 2-3 years. The current title being proposed is very fundraising specific and I just don’t see myself staying in fundraising, so that’s where I’m having trouble with it.

        Yes, moving into a director role would be a great step up, but worry that it may be problematic when I look to leave here.

  28. Holiday Blues*

    This is a bit long and rambling, but I need to get all this out.

    TLDR version: I’m not going to be in charge of the holiday party this year. I’m just not. And I’m done worrying about what that will mean for this year’s party. That’s my bosses’ job to figure out, not mine.

    Full version:

    My section has always been responsible for organizing the annual holiday party for our whole department – about 150 people. I’ve been the chairperson for our holiday party committee for the last three years, but the person who was supposed to take it over this year left for a different job and no one else in my section seems willing to take it over.

    I’ve been telling my boss since January that I’m willing to help out on the committee, but that someone else will need to run the party this year and so far, no plans have been made. Typically, the committee starts meeting in late September, so there’s only a month left for the bosses to figure out who’s going to run it. I’ve been gently bringing it up occasionally (about once a month), asking if there’s a new plan and mentioning that someone needs to reserve our meeting hall for the party before all the dates are booked (they almost are already), but at this point, I’m tired of even doing that.

    It’s traditionally been a pretty good party. It’s free, on-site, non-mandatory, very casual, during lunchtime, etc. I’ve taken a lot of advice from this site in the last few years in deciding how to do everything and I even enjoy parts of it. But I don’t enjoy setting up the committee meetings, tracking down whether everything’s been done, managing the budget, worrying about the schedule, and all that.

    I’m the only woman in my section, and my predecessor running the party was a woman as well. (There’s a long story for how the chairperson is usually chosen, and it used to change every 2 years, but there’s no one new that meets the traditional criteria currently and I’m just not willing to do a 4th year.) Instead of stepping up and offering to take over, all the men in my section have instead continued to suggest making a different section host the party, specifically suggesting the only two sections in our department that are mostly women.

    Every time I bring it up, I just get comments on how well I’ve organized the party for the last three years (which is true, but I don’t want to be known as the party organizer, I want to be known as the good “teapot designer”) and the conversation devolves into how things have been done before and no decision is ever made about *this year’s* party. At this point, it’s looking most likely that if I don’t run the committee, it will fall to two women on our support team just because everyone assumes they won’t mind.

    Additionally, even if it did stay in my section, at least a couple of the men in my section keep making “jokes” about it being a “Holiday Party” instead of a “Christmas Party” and mostly being jerks about inclusion and such in general. (We are a government facility, so an inclusive approach is especially important for us to get right, in addition to it just generally being the right thing to do.)

    I want the party to be good and I want the leadership and committee to be done “right”, but I’m realizing that both of those things probably can’t happen and, at this point, it’s not my responsibility to make them happen anyway. This party is supposedly a gift from our supervisors to the employees (the supervisors donate money to run the party, since we don’t get any official money for the budget) and I need to just leave it to the supervisors to figure out. I’ve told my boss plenty of times that I’m not running it and it should be his responsibility to make a new plan at this point.

    That means that there’s a good chance that the party will be pretty lackluster and last-minute this year, and I’ll probably have lots of people asking me why I didn’t run it when I’ve done “such a good job” before, but I just can’t spend any more energy on worrying about this. The party will be what it will be and I should get to just enjoy it as a regular employee instead of continuing to stress about it just because no one else will step up. I’ve given my boss basically a full year’s notice that I’m not going to run the party, and I don’t owe any more to something that’s not even remotely part of my job description.

    2. WellRed*

      Stop bringing it up. Stop asking if there’s a plan, stop reminding them to book the hall. This isn’t helping anything and risks you getting stuck with it again or associated with any resulting fail. It’s…a party. Maybe the party this year sucks, maybe someone orders in 50 pizzas and calls it good.

      1. On Fire*

        This. The next time you say *anything* about the party should be when the invitation/announcement arrives.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Oh boy, you nailed it here. I have found that if I keep inquiring about something it ends up in my lap. Disconnect, OP, disconnect. Stop asking. I know I can bond with a project and watching other people drop the ball is very painful, but we don’t have to say that out loud. We can just go on with our day.
        If the party is blah! then they will have to figure out something different for next year.

        1. Observer*

          This was my first thought, too.

          Keep repeating a mantra that comes up here a lot “Not my circus, not my monkeys.”

          Also, the only way that things are going to change are if you detach and let the party be a dud.

    3. CatCat*

      Sounds like you’re taking the right approach! This is not worth stressing over. Maybe prepare yourself for any questions you are anticipating like why you didn’t run it because you did such a good job. Maybe something like, “Thanks for the compliment! I was no longer interested in running it as I have other things to focus on.” And if pressed, a breezy, “Nope, just not interested anymore. Talk to Supervisor though if you’re interested in volunteering.” And if they persist, flatten out the tone, “I’ve said I’m not interested anymore and I’d prefer not to continue discussing the matter. Thanks for understanding.”

      1. SarahKay*

        Or even reference that you’ve done more than your share: “Thanks for the compliment! The organiser is actually supposed to change every two years and I’d already done three so I think it was time for a change.”

    4. OperaArt*

      Don’t bring it up anymore. Don’t make suggestions. Refuse to engage if someone else brings it up. Let it go. Pretend like you’ve never heard of the party in your life.

      If the party isn’t very good this year? Not your problem. You’ve done your part.

    5. Annie Moose*

      Sometimes, you have to let things fail to make people realize that you’re serious. You have done your part, more than your part, and if people want things done, they will have to do it themselves.

      I think it’s perfectly fine to tell people bluntly that you did it a year more than others normally did and repeatedly tried to get the bosses to select a new chairperson. It isn’t your fault if things fail (and at this point, if I were you, I’d even stop bringing up the hall rental–you’ve repeatedly brought it up, so if nobody reserves it, it definitely isn’t on you).

    6. Serious Sam*

      “I’ll probably have lots of people asking me why I didn’t run it when I’ve done “such a good job” before”
      Just ask “Why don’t you run it?”.

      1. Marthooh*

        Or say “Yes, it DOES take a lot of work to make the party happen! Next year, the organizer will know that.”

        And change the subject.

    7. AnotherJill*

      I know the urge to make sure that something is done “right”, but where a party like this is concerned, there really isn’t a “right”. Sure the party might not be as fun, might not be as well planned, but in the scheme of things, that isn’t really all that important.

      Try to stop thinking of it, talking about it, or worrying about it. Think of it as out of your hands and move on.

    8. Aphrodite*

      Frankly, I’d warn the two support women about the likelihood that the party planning will fall to them–permanently–if they agree to do it. (I would also tell them that once they start doing “women’s work” it will likely keep them in support roles forever, but that’s me. I like appropriate snarkiness.)

      I wouldn’t even think about it. It’s been passed to the boss, and any comments or jokes my male co-workers made would be met with a brilliant smile and a warm, friendly tone when I replied (every time), “I am glad you are volunteering, can’t wait to see what you come up with!”

    9. Kathenus*

      Echoing some of the other comments here. By reminding them regularly that something needs to happen about the party you kind of are actually planning the party, so agree with the other commenters to stop bringing it up.

      I don’t know how your past conversations on this have been done, but I’d make sure that there’s at least one email about you not organizing the party this year so that you have a paper trail that you clearly let the powers that be know that you would not be in charge this year.

      And lastly, I think your choices are either organize the party, or make sure that it’s a good party and the committee does things right. You don’t have the power to not be involved and make sure it’s done a certain way. So pick which one is more important to you – not organizing, or having it done right – and focus on that. From your overall post it sounds like that is not organizing it this year. Focus on that, make sure there’s some documentation that you informed them, and then turn off the topic in your mind (as best you can) and let it succeed or fail as it will.

      You’ve done your part, you deserve to just enjoy it this year!

    10. Engineer Girl*

      You’re still involved even though you say you aren’t. Stop it!

      Totally disengage. Don’t even work on a committee. That way if it fails you can’t get blamed.

      Your response is “I have headed up the Holiday party for the last three years. It was a lot of work and I’m taking a sabbatical this year”. Repeat. If they try to say it was so great say “Thank you! Perhaps you can head it up this year.” Have your stopwatch our to time their run.

      And stay away. Only show up for the party. This isn’t yours anymore.

    11. AnonymousCelebrity*

      It’s a party. It’s not life-saving cancer research on the cusp of a breakthrough that will not come to fruition if you pull out. If the party is a flop, it’s a flop. Nobody will die. And that’s absolutely worst-case, right?

      So stop thinking about it, worrying about it, talking about it, asking about it, or giving it another moment of your time. Parties are “nice-to-haves,” not “must-haves.” If worst-case happens and the party is a flop, it’s not a cataclysmic event. Not for anyone. Including you right?

      If management cares about it, they’ll figure out a way to make it work. That’s on them, not on you. Please, LW, take a moment to put this situation into perspective. Give yourself a break. Graveyards are full of indispensable people, and offices are full of people who survive and have rich, full lives without office holiday parties.

    12. only acting normal*

      By continuing to give reminders about what needs to be done next (ever if you aren’t doing what needs to be done) you are still taking on the emotional labour of the party planning. Stop.

  29. Crylo Ren*

    Really frustrated with the HR at my husband’s company. He was involved in a bad accident (work-related) last week that resulted in a couple of hospital stays and a badly broken arm which will need surgery. My husband qualifies for and started the process for workers’ comp with the support of his managers, but the HR rep has been sending my husband completely incorrect information (one example, he sent the contact info for the firm that he claimed was worker’s comp, but it was actually for disability…when my husband asked for clarification, the rep then sent him information for FMLA and paternity leave). It’s really frustrating – we can’t tell if this guy is being purposefully obstructive or if he’s just that incompetent.

    This particular HR rep has a history with my husband’s team – there was a similar incident last year where this rep actually made one of my husband’s coworkers cry, because the rep led her down a months-long wild goose chase, blocking every inquiry and even giving her 100% incorrect information. Coworker eventually had to work with someone else to get things shorted out but it took months of stress and she missed out on quite a lot of benefits that she should have been entitled to.

    I’m wondering if there is any recourse here or if we just need to grit our teeth through any interactions with this person. Can my husband insist that he work with someone else? Or can my husband and his coworker who was involved in the earlier incident bring up any kind of complaint or grievance as a group? This is probably the nature of working with/in HR…but this is still annoying and one more thing we really don’t need to be dealing with…

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Does your husband have a contact name/number for someone at Workers Comp? In PA, at least, the worker’s comp folks usually have direct contact with the injured party.

      1. CDM*

        This. The company should have reported the claim to the insurer immediately and the work comp insurer claims rep should have already contacted your husband directly.

        In most, if not all, states the work comp claims administration information (including a phone number) is required to be publicly posted in an area accessible to employees. Even if the company is large and self-insures, there should be a professional company that handles the claims process. And your husband’s boss or any other co-worker should be able to get that information for you without involving HR. Call them directly, and they should be able to find the coverage/claim information by searching by employer name and put you in contact with the claims representative.

        Good luck

    2. LQ*

      Can your husband’s boss step in and try to make some of this smoother? Really that’s who should be helping out making this easier.

    4. Where’s my coffee?*

      As a veteran HR leader, there are times I sincerely wish HR required licensure. Not just a certification—an actual license to practice. There are bad apples in any profession, but poor hr practitioners really can screw over individuals and companies.

    5. E*

      Is it possible to find and consult with a Worker’s Comp attorney? Since this HR rep has history of causing problems (whether intentional or otherwise) for employees needing to use the insurance that the company is required to maintain and provide to injured employees, an attorney could cut through some of the problems faster.

    6. BlueWolf*

      I agree with talking to the HR rep’s manager (if there is one) . I spent over a year dealing with a prescription insurance coverage issue for my spouse (resulting in none of his prescriptions being covered), and I finally had to ask benefits manager to step in because it was not getting resolved. She was able to resolve it within a couple days and it was basically just a coding issue from when they set up our insurance.

    7. IceTea4Meee*

      Oh man, first I’m so sorry your husband was injured but I’m glad he is relatively ok. I work in an industrial setting with lots of potential for injuries so just this HR persons response is kind of mind boggling to me. Either way if he is really that inept or if he thinks he can be saving the company money by acting that way it needs to end.

      I would try a few things, first reach out to the HR person’s boss and say he’s already delaying me the help I need by giving me false information and make it clear that you will only work with someone else. It would be a good idea to loop in your husband’s boss and if there is a health and safety manager mainly because if this guy isn’t following proper procedures he may not be recording the incident correctly according to OSHA standards ( I’m assuming you are in the US) which could mean hefty fines for the company. I would also look into and reach out to the local OSHA branch or state labor board. Potentially consult with a lawyer or at least find a few with a good reputation should the HR person not be cooperative.

      Workplace accidents unfortunately do happen but most employers recognize that it’s better in the long run to take care of their employees and do the right thing- that’s why there is a workers comp in the first place. But in case this is not a problem with the HR person and is evidence of larger problem do your due diligence to protect yourself.

    8. Paquita*

      No advice, just sympathy. Two years ago I fell in the parking lot at work. Tripped over a seam in the concrete that was a little bump. I skinned my knee. Went in, someone asked about the messed up spot on my pants. Told them what happened and I was fine. Next thing I knew I had paperwork in my hands and was out the door on the way to the workmans comp doctor. HR/Safety did NOT hesitate to insist I get looked at. I would have been happy with a bandaid. Your HR sucks!

  30. Amber Rose*

    My boss was on a roaring rampage of rage the other day. You can always tell when she’s angry because she says things like, “I’m so furious right now” and then starts making vague homicidal threats. So you can understand why I wasn’t super thrilled that in the middle of this, she said she needed to talk to me for a bit.

    Turns out, she’s being forced to give a presentation to the owners/upper management about what we do here in administration, because they seem to think we don’t do anything. They value the sales people, but I guess think they can run a business with just sales people and nobody doing the paperwork, which is crap, but anyway. So she wanted some help with my portion of it, basically, what do I do that justifies me having this as a job, as opposed to just having someone doing something important fill my title for visuals sake. Please imagine me saying all this in the most heavily sarcastic tone that ever was.

    So now I’m a little worried, and frustrated because I already knew that I get zero respect from anyone and that nobody knows what I’m doing, but it sucks that our leaders are so short sighted that they have spread that attitude to the entire section of office staff. My respect for them has basically dropped to zero. :/

    Anyway, she’s got my sales numbers up there, which is cool. Last year I processed just over 200 sales, this year so far I’ve done well over 400, so I’ve been busy. This presentation will happen just before our big event in September. We’ll see I guess. But now more than ever I don’t know if I even want this friggin job anymore. I feel very bitter and sullen.

    1. WellRed*

      So tired of all the recognition sales gets, even when it’s relatively small peanuts. Without the rest of us, you’d have nothing to sell.

      1. Amber Rose*

        We’re so busy all the time processing all the orders, making sure we have stock, making sure everything is square with regulations and stuff. But we do “nothing” all day, because we aren’t actively selling stuff or drilling stuff.

        You’re right, it is tiring.

        1. Kat in VA*

          The husband is a combo of SQA Director/Compliance Officer at his job (fed.gov contractor). He, his boss, and his grandboss do their own admin work. All of it.

          It pains me to know that my husband and his bosses – at their salaries – are puzzling over how to perform some function in Powerpoint or Excel or whatever. Spending loads of time! Sometimes he’ll text or call me for help when he’s stumped – and it’s something I could do in a snap without thinking twice.

          And yeah, he makes almost triple what I would make as a decently-paid EA. I’m certain his bosses make far more than that.

          IMHO, running lean isn’t the best practice.

    2. LCL*

      Ah yes, the old “production people can just do their own paperwork, we can get rid of admin staff and save so much money.” Many different places try this. My job has cut admin staff to the bone. I do a lot of tasks that used to be done by our admins. What the people arguing for cutting lower paid staff never realize is that if you eliminate the lower paid positions, and the work still has to be done, now the higher paid positions are doing the work and you haven’t saved any money on the tasks. (I also think most admins are vastly underpaid but that is another topic.)

      Since your business uses the sales model for revenue, this should be relatively easy to argue against. ‘Sales department brought in ten million last year. To do that, it required ten people working full time on sales, nothing else. Every labor hour they spend on administrative and bookkeeping tasks is a labor hour they aren’t working on selling product.’ Throw in some round numbers to make your point. If 10 sales people are now spending 10% of their work time on admin tasks, that is 10% less time spent selling. Which means a 10% drop in revenue.

      1. Amber Rose*

        And we honestly don’t have much in the way of admin anyway. There’s my boss, and the four people she manages. That’s it. And we’re swamped. We don’t do “nothing” we just don’t do readily visible things.

      2. Kat in VA*

        This is one of my selling points when I interview (I’m an EA):

        “My job is to make your executives more productive. The more time they’re spending doing my work (travel, emails, correspondence, etc.), the less time they’re spending doing their own work.”

        …or variations thereof. Some folks act like they’ve never heard of the concept of admin before and will push back with “But travel is something you just do in Concur…” or “Writing a letter doesn’t take time!”

        To which I will privately think, “Why are you advertising for an admin then?” and out loud note that the executives are probably making several times over what they would pay me, and would they prefer to pay the lower amount for someone to do the admin work, or the higher amount for the executive to do the admin work?

        So far, of all the admin jobs I’ve had, oddly enough the most appreciative bosses were in the Sales department!

    3. Positive Reframer*

      Sounds like you have a golden opportunity to take all of your annual leave whenever you want because nothing that you do is “essential.”

      1. Amber Rose*

        All of my annual leave? Ha. Funny joke. I only get 10 days, and I am free to take it all whenever I want anyway since it’s barely any time.

    4. Traffic_Spiral*

      “You can always tell when she’s angry because she says things like, “I’m so furious right now” and then starts making vague homicidal threats.”

      Ah, so one of those subtle people, then.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yep. It can be tricky to figure out her moods, but if I pay close attention to the small things, like how she says exactly what she’s thinking and feeling, eventually I get it. :P

    5. Not So NewReader*

      FWIW. I am on two boards. And no, I don’t what the direct people are up against and in some cases I have no idea what all the task entails. That part is pretty normal, unfortunately. What is not normal is to be a narrow thinking fool about it. Instead of assuming people do nothing, ASK them what they do and ask in a respectful tone. grr, I so hate this ivory tower stuff I see.

      At my own job every time I turn around our regs triple. Something that should take 10 minutes suddenly takes 30 as I dot every i and cross every t, to placate some snarling person somewhere. ha! I just recently had a 15 minute task blow up to now consume 2 HOURS. Part of the problem is we have to use an antiquated system that cannot be changed. I think when TPTB see work has come to a screeching halt, that story will change.

      So for your own setting, I would write a detail description of what you do and how long it takes. If you are looking for a new job this description will be helpful in writing your resume and talking to potential employers. I had this happen to me at one job, the description I wrote up went right in to my resume writing kit. Yep, I used the heck out of it. We can’t help it if other people are foolish, but we can look around and leverage some of the stuff they make us do.

  31. Arya Parya*

    I have a colleague who I find highly annoying. He likes talking politics in the office. He gives his opinions and seems to expect that everyone agrees with him and acts like you are stupid when you don’t. I really don’t agree with him. I think he knows that, but that doesn’t stop him.

    I mostly tried to avoid and ignore him (but still being polite), which mostly worked, because our work doesn’t overlap much. Unfortunately we have an open office plan without assigned desks. I usually come in before him and he would sit near me, regardless of where I sat, if there was space. I was very happy when he quit about half a year ago.

    I just found out he is coming back next month. I really don’t want to hear his opinions on anything other than work related stuff anymore, so I think I’m going to have to be direct. Do any of you have advice on how to word this?

    1. CatCat*

      “I don’t talk about politics at work.” Wash, rinse, repeat. You don’t have to say anything else or respond to further questions (e.g., why not?… “I just don’t. I don’t talk about politics at work.”)

      1. Reba*

        If he says “well you used to,” reply that it’s a new rule and you’re getting back to work now, thanks.
        You can also try extremely non-engaging responses to his comments. “Ok.” “Sure.” “Yep you’re probably right.”
        He sounds like somewhat of a jerk and/or clueless. Depending on which of those you think is uppermost, you can decide whether it’s worth trying to have a kind of reset conversation when he comes back, or if you think that would just be more fuel for him.

    2. LilySparrow*

      What Cat said. And if won’t stop, tell him, “Look, you are interrupting my work. Please stop.”

      If he’s remotely a reasonable person, he’ll stop then. If not, can you put on headphones?

      I’d probably just get up and move. If he keeps pestering you, treat it like any other topic where someone is bugging you about non-work stuff you don’t want to talk about. Politics isn’t a special category where people get a pass on distracting others.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        If he made an effort to hide it or even embarrassed I’d understand. He does it frequently and is very proud of this.

        1. IceTea4Meee*

          There is a definite difference between ashamed/accidental toots and loud and proud toots.

        2. NaoNao*

          Well to be fair, the blocking is a bridge too far. But confession time: I’m on an end of my cube row and my office is SUPER sparsely populated and if the next couple cubes aren’t in that day…I sometimes just let a squeaker go without like, donning a poop emoji duncecap and ringing a bell throughout the office while proclaiming my shame.

          I do agree that loud and proud has got to go though.

    3. Icontroltherobots*

      How is everyone in your office so horrible?! I had a co-worker ask permission to put a banana in my trash can, after I invited them into my office for breakfast and complaining.

      I feel like you deserve an award for staying at your job as long as you have, because I would have zero chill.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Well most people are nice. Even the nice ones mess up once in a while. But this one is grade A d-bag.

  33. HelpMe*

    I don’t really care what I do for work, but I need to go back to school because my degree is useless – help!

    I’ve been unemployed for a while and taking pre-reqs to go back for a math-oriented masters (data science, applied math, business analytics…) because the jobs in my field are low paying and blah.

    But I just can’t figure out what to do! Honestly I don’t care that much about what I do for work – I want a job that pays well, is vaguely interesting, and that I can do remotely. I know I need to go back to school to achieve this – I have experience, my current degree (Ecology) isn’t helpful, so even though I could find *something* it would be low paying dead end work.

    How do I decide what to apply for this fall, when they all sound neat enough? Online or in person? Part time or full time? I’m driving myself crazy!

      1. HelpMe*

        I’m aware that degree doesn’t necessarily lead to a job, but these are all fields listed as very much so growing and that pay well, statistically. I cannot get a decent job with my current degree. I don’t want to do anything but get paid well and not hate my job, and I’m just not wired to care more than that.

        But since they’re all about the same numbers wise, I’m not sure how to pick. I definitely need to go back to school for something, and I think all of these options are good options (as said, the statistics say they are growing fields, they pay well, etc), but how to pick between all the good options…

    2. Moonbeam Malone*

      If you don’t care what you do then I’d do some research on what the cheapest education is you can get with the highest returns, tbh. Look at what the current employment rates are like in any field you’re considering going into. The more money you spend on school the bigger a gamble it is and it just isn’t worth it to take a big risk on something you’re not passionate about, so try to keep your risk low. Trade or technical schools might be an option? Sorry I can’t give you more specific advice. I’m coming from the position of having gambled on a degree I couldn’t really afford in a field I’m passionate about and failing pretty hard at getting my feet after graduating. Education costs are super inflated and the debt can be just insane.

      1. HelpMe*

        All of the fields I’m considering are expected to increase in number of jobs over the next years, everyone is happy, etc. Everything is a better option than my current degree, which is useless. But I think you’re right about keeping my risk low – that’s a good approach! I had been thinking that, but not literally in those terms, so I’m going to try that now.

        I’m just not passionate about work – it is not how I’m wired – so I guess I’m not sure how to pick between it all. I like working on interesting things, but I don’t care really what those things are – be it at a lab or at a truck terminal. I’m a bit jealous you have passion for a career! To be fair I love all sorts of things that *aren’t* work!

        1. anonagain*

          Look at job postings and see what you would need. Look at a lot of postings, because you don’t want to plan the next few years of your life around one oddball company.
          Go to meet ups and talk to people. Find a project and work on it. Do you have experience working with ecological data? I know ecology programs can have different emphases, but if you’ve done any kind of data analysis using any tools, that is relevant experience.

          Either way, someone in your situation doesn’t need to go back to school to move into one of those fields. There are many other options for getting the skills you need. Whether or not you personally will find that going back to school is the best option is a different question.

          I laughed at “everyone is happy.”

          If you can, see if you can intern or volunteer somewhere in addition to working on your own projects. I hear you on the no passion thing, but try to make sure that you can tolerate the actual work.

          1. HelpMe*

            I’ve looked at a TON of job postings, and almost all of them want a degree, not to mention I’ve been having trouble without one. It seems that without relevant experience/degree, I need some sort of meaningful certification… not to mention (as below) I’d love to have something other than my BS on my resume.

            I can regrettably report that my degree (and to a large extent my work) has given me very little experience that will transfer to anything. Especially because in my experience, hiring managers see biology and figure *nothing* is applicable, even when I keep things in non-technical terms and explain it on my cover letter. I often see other people in the same field lamenting the same way… I should go back to the university and give seminars on it, haha.

            Haha, of course not everyone is happy :) But if changing careers, no reason to pick one with low satisfaction rates!

            I have had difficulty finding internships that allow non-students, which is another reason I would like to go back to school. Internships would allow me to get some experience, at least… is it normal to volunteer at companies, or do you mean charity work?

            1. anonagain*

              Ah, sorry. I wasn’t clear. I was thinking that looking at job postings could be useful in helping you narrow down which programs to apply to if you decide that going back to school is definitely what you want to do. You don’t want to spend a lot of time and money to discover that finance would’ve been more in line with your interests than applied math or whatever. I would also list the skills that you don’t already have come up over and over in job postings. Compare those to the course curricula for the programs you are considering.

              As for volunteering, yeah, I mean charity work. (You can’t volunteer for a company.) There are a ton of opportunities to analyze data for charitable organizations. Depending on where you are, you might want to get involved with an organization like Datakind or Code for America. If you search on a site like idealist or volunteer match you can also find organizations that are actively looking for volunteers with technical skills. It might not be exactly what you hope to do as your career, but even doing data collection and management is experience that will make you a better analyst.

              Another option is to approach an organization that has a need and offer to help. I’ve been a long time volunteer doing something totally non-technical. I saw that we were collecting lots of data in tracking our work and I offered to analyze it.

              Do you have any meet ups in your area? If you do, I strongly recommend that you go if you can. Talking to people in person is a huge help with this kind of thing. I was at a meet up earlier this month and I had the chance to talk to someone who also studied biology and was making the career change. There were people who were way more senior than I am who gave that person advice too. You might even find that the people at these events have experience with the programs you’re considering.

              You might also find it useful to get involved in the data science community online. There are many resources and it’s good fun.

              For some people, going back to school is the best option. If you’re going to be paying, I think it’s worth talking to people and trying some stuff first to figure out what is the best fit.

    3. Trisha*

      Have you thought about looking at government jobs? Probably the best thing I did when I was floundering was luck into a (Canadian) government job. While I’m ready to move back to the private sector after 17 years, it’s been a great, stable, well paying experience.

    4. kab*

      I get it. I’m still working on my bachelor’s (at 33….), and, technically I’m ready to graduate, but I’m going to take extra classes in things like data/business analytics, because I do quite a bit of data analytics, but I’m not very good at it.

    5. Easily Amused*

      You might consider looking into coding boot camps. I’m a programmer and it’s fun work that pays well. I have a degree in business and an MFA so no related degrees. I learned on my own and on the job so it’s doable with hard work and persistence. My husband was in IT but wanted better earning potential and the ability to work remotely someday so he’s finishing up a boot camp programming in the next month or so.

  34. Yay!*

    Office renovation starts next week and everyone (who isn’t a manager with an office) is being reassigned work spaces…luckily we are still keeping cubes and not moving to an open office plan.

    My supervisor informed me on Wed that I would be moved to an isolated back corner “with lots of space!!” because I’m “out of the office a lot at partner sites” and am a team of one, unlike other departments. This would physically remove me from everyone and ensure “out of sight out of mind”, given the way things work here. Excited to report that I successfully negotiated my way out of the corner!

    Never thought I’d be so happy to be in a regular cube farm.

    1. Miss Displaced*

      I would like be so happy to be located in an out of the way corner with lots of space. I need quiet and less distraction to work well.

  35. Regular poster going anonymous but PLZ DONT OUT ME*

    Where am I messing up here?

    The team lead I work under has been a little iffy lately. He started same time as me, we both got promoted at diff times. And until recently, I thought we were on good terms, and worked well. We weren’t friends, but friendly. We both report to the same manager, and I’m part of Mgmt team but technically he is one step above me.

    For the last year though, I’ve felt….I don’t know…..as if he doesn’t value me as a team member or doesn’t have a lot of respect for me. It’s weird and uncomfortable for me b/c we’ve been on (what I thought were) good terms for years.

    Last week, during a week long training that included all managers and the director, he told the trainer that he, another TL, and 2 other guys who report to us “run this team.” Even my boss and boss’s boss looked at each other like “wtf? What about [me]?” I’ll admit that stung but I didn’t call him out in the moment. I wish I had. Like, that was a SUPER STING.

    When my mgr is away, I’m the person for people to come to. But TL kept going to another guy who’s not a mgr/supervisor for almost everything.

    Day 2, a person on his team was losing her cool. Like, people were staring and commenting and he was standing around talking to his friend. Trust me when I say there is no way possible that he didn’t hear or notice it…I finally stepped in and told her to calm down and it deescalated.

    Same day, we had a training. I messed up and missed that I was co-training with someone, and the person training it was in a last minute meeting so I would be doing it alone. I freaked out b/c 1. I dont’ do well with last minute stuff and 2. this software training was super hard for me..others picked it up quickly and I didn’t and I felt as dumb as a box of rocks. I went to ask another person for help. That TL was there too and said “its super easy, you just have to do this this and this.” (I hate to admit this, but I was on the verge of tears and ran to the restroom, took a few minutes to calm myself.)..went to the training. The other trainer showed up eventually and turns out the other trainer was just as lost, but no one would ever say he was stupid or incompetent (b/c he’s not, he’s great!). I feel like everyone, esp this TL, thinks that of me, that I’m stupid or that this was the work equivalent of a social promotion (and I’m not gonna lie, I’m not a quick learner. I’m slow and things take forever to stick).

    Day 3, I had a panic attack for reasons so was late to work and informed him–didn’t even come up to talk to me or ask how I was doing.

    Since then, I’ve been a little passive aggressive. Jokingly saying “according to TL, I don’t do anything here.” Not saying hi to him, small stuff like that. I’m not asking him for help out of pride though I know none of this will affect him and only hurt me.

    I’m resentful b/c a lot of the things that are part of his job description he doesn’t do…the managing, etc. his higher ups complain too that he and others don’t do what they’re supposed to. I do it, and I get paid WAY less than him. You have ot ask him nicely to do something, and I didn’t mind at first until it suddenly came up in my mind, why do I have to ASK you to do your job? (I fully accept if I’m wrong in thinking this).

    It’s also ironic that I was tasked with passing around a greeting card for people to sign for his upcoming wedding. (My male boss was going to do it but he was out).

    And FWIW, I don’t get this weirdness from anyone here. My boss backs me up whenever I need to as well as his boss and the other team leaders. Staff doesn’t treat me differently from everyone else. He was worse before but got better. It’s a shame bc things started out great.

    1. Robin Sparkles*

      I am strictly responding to your question above about what you might be “messing up” – which I would reword as where you could improve:

      Since then, I’ve been a little passive aggressive. Jokingly saying “according to TL, I don’t do anything here.” Not saying hi to him, small stuff like that. I’m not asking him for help out of pride though I know none of this will affect him and only hurt me.

      Don’t do this – it won’t achieve your goal of getting him to step-up and it will make you look like a victim. As for getting him to do his work – stop doing his work for him. Go to him confidently and expect him to do his job. If he doesn’t -that is on him and his manager.

      You already said people come to you and not him. That right there should remind you that you are competent and good at your job. His rude comment about how he runs things clearly wasn’t taken seriously by anyone including the managers! So who cares what he says? He looks like the fool.

      Finally- you are letting this one guy affect your ability to do your work when everything I have read doesn’t really show me that he is directly impacting your work in anyway. Don’t let him psych you out. You may feel he is undermining you or doesn’t respect you but the evidence just shows me someone with a big ego who no one takes seriously.

      1. Regular poster going anonymous but PLZ DONT OUT ME*

        I stopped saying those things after the first day, I know it wasn’t nice. I don’t talk to friends or family about what I’ve been feeling. I just feel very unvalued and that he doesn’t respect me at all. My own boss is great in that regard but he’s OOO for a bit.

    2. LurkingAlong*

      Ok, so there’s a lot going on in your comment but I think it boils down to 2 things: your coworker is undermining your work and you have insecurity about some aspects of your work. I had a similar situation with a coworker that actually started below me (and did some work on my team) and then was promoted to be at my level. I had some health issues going on at the time and some parts of my work were suffering. He decided to use that to bolster his image and because he was well liked and did good work (but was lacking in very critical skills) he got a promotion to my level and higher salary than mine. I learned a few very hard lessons from that.

      1. Focus on building better rapport and feedback relationship with your manager. Make your work more visible to your manager without comparing it to the coworker. If the coworkers lack of work impacts yours then bring it up to the manager in a conversation where you’re asking for feedback on how to improve your work.
      2. Do not share detailed information about your health or anxiety with the coworker. He has proven to be not on your side and the less you tell him the better. Seek support and validation elsewhere.
      3. Stop being passive aggressive and be direct. You know being passive reflects badly on you and not him. Practice scripts to be more direct when he makes comments like the one he made in front of managers.

      I know it’s hard when you want to be friendly with everyone (like I do) but this is your job/career and having a mindshift like that can take time. Good luck!

      1. Regular poster going anonymous but PLZ DONT OUT ME*

        I wish I had called him out in that moment. Or any moment. I freeze up and stutter or say nothing.

        1. LurkingAlong*

          I understand that can be difficult but that is why you need scripts and practice. But, as Meredith Brooks said below, I think you should focus on the other 2 points more, as they remove the focus from him to you. The coworker I mentioned in my post did not really get to me until my self worth and performance started to slip. A good therapist/coach could help with all of this.

        2. Minocho*

          I have real problems with this too, and it drives me crazy. I can stick up for other people in the moment, but when it’s me, I go into Deer In Headlights mode…

          My best advice is since this is a pattern, prepare for it. Going over scenarios in my head helps me act in the moment. Imagine him doing X annoying thing, and decide on some things to say. It feels stupid in the moment, but it really helps me get past my freeze and into the right action mode.

          Good luck!

          1. Anonymosity*

            Yes, it’s like practicing for a disaster scenario. There’s a reason for fire/tornado drills–it’s to get people to think about what they’ll do when something actually happens. In the moment, it’s too late.

            Also, I’m a big fan of a blank, silent stare when people are being squirrely. Sometimes the stare can actually discombobulate them to the point where they stop whatever it is they’re doing. It doesn’t sound like it will work on this guy, so I’d practice some responses anyway. Just look at him blankly for a second and give yourself a chance to regroup and think of what you want to say.

            Watch the British version of The Office–Tim (Martin Freeman) uses the blank stare a lot.

      2. Regular poster going anonymous but PLZ DONT OUT ME*

        I definitely have lots of insecurities about my abilities and skills. Things that I give others leeway for, I call myself stupid or incompetent. I realize this is something I need to work out with a therapist and not at work.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If you can’t say it to a friend then you cannot talk to yourself that way either.
          As a band-aid measure, decide that each time you catch yourself browbeating yourself, you will stop and you will think of an affirmation. You can say all-purpose affirmations such as, “I WILL stand up for ME when I am right.”

          There is more than one thing going on here. Your bosses did not stand up for you when he carved you out of the leadership that day. You are saying he is paid much more than you. I am thinking that your bosses are snoozing here. That would leave me feeling beat up.
          Then you beat yourself up as he beats you up (verbally). So you have it coming in from all sides. Work on your private affirmations, a half baked, half-hearted gesture will give you some benefit. Also have a chat with your boss about what is going on. He sounds “boys club-y” to me. I could be reading this wrong.

          Okay autopsy time.
          If this situation happens again what can you say:
          “No, Bob that is not correct, you and I and other cohort are the leaders for this group.”
          Practice this until you sound like you are saying something as benign as “Today is Friday” or “The time is 3 pm.” Say it with a flat, matter of fact voice. All you really need to do here is just give a factual statement. You don’t have to be clever or quick or snarky. The over all template looks like this “No, Bob X is not correct. The actual answer is Y.”
          What is nice about this template is that it fits other situations:
          “No Bob, my work was not late. It was due Wednesday and I had it in by Tuesday at 2.”
          “No, Bob, we were not shorted on our last order. We ordered and received 15 teapots. Four were broken so we sent them back and we are awaiting their replacements. The initial shipment had the correct quantity.”
          Practice in front of the mirror until you are bored. Boredom is a clue, it means you got it. If you don’t have it you will still be very nervous. If you are some where in between that means you are starting to get it. All you are doing is getting used to the sound of your own professional voice standing up for you in a succinct, professional manner.

          Practice responding to other things that come up. Practice as you drive home, or in the shower, or whatever. The way to break it down is to ask yourself what you wanted this guy to know , figure out that part, then figure out how you will say it the next time.

    3. WellRed*

      Ugh. I hate to ask, but are you female? I mean, he sounds like an ass, regardless, but some of the other comments make me wonder if gender isn’t playing some role here. Why is it only males that “run the team” (according to him). Why is he paid more?
      As to him not asking how you were doing, some people do that and others don’t, especially if they are not close.
      However, you have more of a management problem than a coworker problem. Also, drop the passive aggressive act, which will come back to bite you in the ass (and is probably making others uncomfortable). Vent to friends outside of the office.

      1. Regular poster going anonymous but PLZ DONT OUT ME*

        I am female yes. He is younger than me if that matters.

        I am not sure why he said those non-manager males run the team. That’s absolutely not true.

        He’s paid more bc he is one grade above me and had education & background which I understand is the norm. Others make more and I don’t begrudge them for it bc they deserve it.

        I was always felt that “wow he’s amazing he’s great st what he does”

        I stopped saying those things. It truly doesn’t matter if I say hi so I don’t. And I know I shouldn’t care that people don’t ask how I am, it just made me (internally) roll my eyes.

    4. Meredith Brooks*

      I tend to be a bit on the blunt side, so my apologies if this comes across as short or terse. I have been in your shoes. The shoes where every statement or interaction is a direct reflection on you. The shoes where every moment in time is analyzed for appropriate / civil behavior (on both your part and the part of the other party).

      I read your post, but to be honest, I wouldn’t be able to come close to encapsulating exactly what the issue is here. Rest assured, I don’t doubt there is an issue and doubly rest assured that I don’t doubt that your counterpart is likely doing something aggravating. But based on the details of your post, it appears to me that you’re reading way too much into your interactions with this person and you’re giving them way too much of your energy and thought.

      I would recommend you read through your post with a fresh pair of eyes. Pick out the moments where you had a direct negative interaction with your colleague. Meaning, they responded negatively to you. I think much of what you’ll find is that you’re doing a lot of interpreting of what this person might mean or intend and the truth is that they probably don’t mean or intend half of the things you think they do. When you identify the definitive moments of negative interaction, you’ll see a pattern and that is what you want to address and the pattern or issue will tell you what to do next.

      1. Regular poster going anonymous but PLZ DONT OUT ME*

        I thought of that too. Not asking how I am doing or not talking to me, that alone wouldn’t bother me.

        It’s the “we run the team”. And how long time ago he was joking about how the new hires are in trouble if I’m the one training them. I complained to my boss and he stopped that. Little things like that that added up.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          That could have been a compliment? Meaning you know your stuff and you are going to put them through the paces?

          1. Marthooh*

            “…he told the trainer that he, another TL, and 2 other guys who report to us “run this team.””

            He was excluding OP from the “we” who run the team. Not a compliment.

  36. Blue Anne*

    Would you ever rent an apartment to/from a coworker?

    I work at a small manufacturing company and live in a working class town 10 minutes away, where I also have a bunch of rental units. I’m technically on the management team, but the most junior and this whole place is pretty egalitarian anyway. (13 people, and the best place I’ve ever worked.) Just occurred to me that in the future, there will probably be a colleague looking for housing, and my apartments are very convenient and affordable. Can’t decide whether I’d do it or not. Probably a bad idea, right?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      My immediate instinct is HELL NO, but there may be some circumstances where I’d consider it.

      There are a lot of ways it could go really bad though so I’d definitely be hesitant.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I do know someone who does something similar, and it seems to work out for them, but personally I wouldn’t do it – there must be other people who might be interested in renting, who DON’T work with you. My concerns would be, what if this person brings a lot more work into my home life (talking about it, making me think about it when I’m off the clock either intentionally or not) and what if this person ends up becoming a direct colleague that I’ll have to work with, or a boss or a direct report? What if this person damages the company and that bounces back on me? What if I find out something at home that affects the company, but I wouldn’t know about it any other way. But I’m a worrier.

        1. Luna123*

          Honestly, I think the rule of “never rent to friends or family” should probably extend to coworkers, too. Especially if you’re in management and the renter is junior employee — I’d be leery of accidentally giving the impression that their housing might be affected by their job performance, or their job might be impacted by how clean their unit is when you inspect it, or something.

          I’m not saying that you’d do that, but it’s food for thought.

          1. Sloan Kittering*

            Yeah, I just wouldn’t want to know that a coworker was abusing drugs, or abusing their dog, or had a weird sex life, if I had the opportunity to not-know that.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      Do you use any kind of management company for the rental units? It seems like having a layer between you as coworker and you as landlord would help.

    4. Nita*

      Gosh no. My husband rented an apartment to his brother and there were so many hurt feelings, over truly ridiculous things. Now renting to non-family, and thank goodness, because once again unexpected problems come out of the woodwork and I’m so thankful the people we’re resolving them with are not family. I wouldn’t want to argue with one of our siblings about whose fault it is the keys got lost and the lock had to be cut out. I imagine it wouldn’t be any better if this is a transaction between coworkers.

    5. Bea*

      Don’t rent to anyone you won’t sue and evict! These situations start out great then explode.

      Many people already think a landlord should be their extra parent or “more understanding” or relax rules because “omg the tyrant won’t let me have 37 dogs in here and requires I take out tree trash to avoid infestations!?!” If you’re now a landlord and on even an acquaintance level…God, no.

      1. Liza*

        Exactly! I rented to a friend who used our friendship (and my leniency) to avoid paying rent. And then he went to prison (long story) and I wound up caught in the middle as his parents were demanding the opportunity to come up and collect his things but kept dragging their heels over hiring the van and making the trip. I lost thousands because I was a soft touch.

        I’m not suggesting OP would be a pushover like me, but if something goes wrong and you DO have to take steps to remove the tenant or pursue outstanding rent, you’re going to have to do so while working with the individual in question.

    6. Manders*

      I wouldn’t! There are so many worst-case scenarios I can think of: What if your coworker gets promoted over you, so you become your boss’s landlord? What if you need to fire someone, but you know that if you do they won’t be able to pay rent to you? What if there’s some issue with the unit that your tenant/coworker blames you for causing?

      The absolute best-case scenario is that you have a completely normal tenant, and there are other ways to find normal tenants with less risk that things could go sideways for you at work.

      (Congrats on your side business with the rental units, by the way, that’s very cool!)

    7. WellRed*

      I had a coworker rent to another employee here (not someone she worked with directly). He wasn’t a bad tenant, but he was a high maintenance one (every.little.thing!) and drove her up the wall. And colored some views of him.

    8. Anonymosity*

      No, because I like to leave work at work. If I were renting from/to them, I’d have to deal with them outside work and I typically don’t want to do that.

  37. Alternative Person*

    I’m doing a correspondence course requiring in-work elements and urgh, I hate how the course assumes that I work in a top-tier establishment with resources and support. It’s doable in the conditions I work in, but it’s just so much labour dealing on one side, with course tutors who seem to think everywhere has top-tier equipment and resources, whilst my manager on the other is extremely limiting in letting me mobilize what resources we/I do have to get the work done. Part of it is on-high company stuff but there’s also an element of ‘can’t use work time for personal projects’ ignoring that I’m paying out of my own damn pocket a lot of money to help me get better at the very job I’m doing.

    (Also, I confirmed the other week that one of my co-workers is time clock padding. I had suspected for a while but it was nice to get proof of that ((I’m not saying anything, it’s not worth it, more personal vindication)).

    Needed to get that out. Happy Friday!

  38. Jane Victoria*

    Any good ways to respond when a coworker apologizes for a mistake and then starts explaining profusely why something happened, and literally won’t move on until you say “it’s okay” and essentially absolve them? “Thanks for apologizing” feels really harsh to me. I’ve also tried “it makes me feel really stuck because of X consequence,” which just leads to a repeat of the initial apology and explanation until they get their ‘it’s okay” (even when it’s not “okay” and their actions had moderate consequences).

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I mean, if it’s one time, I’d let it go. I’d close the loop emotionally by saying something like, “it’s not a problem, I certainly understand that mistakes happen and that we all make them. I’m not mad at you.” But if this is a pattern of behavior, then yes it’s not acceptable to dump this shame-dance on you every time and make you a part of their ritual. I might try to name it explicitly to them … maybe say something like, “sometimes when you make a mistake, I don’t need a lot of details about it and I can’t provide the level of reassurance you seem to think is necessary. I don’t think it’s helping you so I’m going to stop doing it from now on.”

      1. Jane Victoria*

        This is perfect–exactly what I needed, but couldn’t seem to articulate. Thank you!

    2. What's with today, today?*

      I don’t thank you for apologizing is harsh.

      I usually say “thank you.” and that’s it.

      And if they keep on, just “Thanks again, I appreciate you reaching out.”

    3. AJK*

      Well, is it doing anyone any good to keep dwelling on it? Because if I were the other employee, that’s what I’d hear when you said “It makes me feel really stuck,” like I still need to apologize to you. Perhaps something like “It happened, we’ll deal with it, let’s move on and hope it doesn’t happen again/and please don’t let it happen again/this can’t happen again” Because even if it’s not “okay,” it’s done, and I’m sure the other party probably feels mortified and is looking for some closure. You don’t have to make the other party feel it’s “okay,” when it’s not, but you don’t have to keep beating a dead horse either. If it’s a continuing pattern then maybe there’s a need to figure out why this mistake is being made – is there a problem with the process? Is the other person’s explanation giving you any clues as to why it keeps happening? Do they not understand, or is it a matter of performance that needs to be dealt with? If it’s a one off, well, we all make mistakes, but if the same mistake keeps on being repeated, it’s useful to try to figure out why rather than assign blame – making your co-worker feel crappy isn’t going to fix anything. The important thing, once it’s already done and can’t be changed, is how to keep it from happening again.

      1. Jane Victoria*

        Oooh, this recontextualizing is also really helpful, thank you! I am writing this on a post-it note for the next time it happens!

    4. BRR*

      Would “I’m glad you’re looking/looked into it so (polite version of saying so it doesn’t happen again)” work?

    5. Minocho*

      Let’s focus on how to fix the issue and clean up the fallout, and then we can revisit how we plan to mitigate similar problems going forward, later.

      OR

      I appreciate that. Why don’t we get this taken care of first?

  39. DaniCalifornia*

    Had a 1st and 2nd interview with a company this week, with a schedule for a 3rd to meet more people. They stated their salary for this new position they’re creating is a bit lower than my desired range (57-65k, I currently make 60k) *but* they offer a lot of benefits (100% paid med/dental/vision/life insurance premiums, 401 and matching, HSA and contributions, profit sharing, free gym, 2 weeks PTO + holidays) compared to my current job (no ins and 3 weeks PTO + 7 paid holidays.) So if the salary decrease isn’t too much total compensation could end up being more than I make right now.

    I am still going to try and negotiate salary but I don’t want to give up 3 weeks PTO. Any advice or scripts for asking for more? I feel like that’s a fair thing to ask for in exchange for a lower salary, bit longer commute. I don’t need a new job, but I want a new job to grow. Current job is slowly turning toxic and the work/life balance isn’t manageable anymore for me.

    1. DaniCalifornia*

      Shoot, hit enter too early.

      Also going to be negotiating salary because I currently manage no one and support mid level owners whereas with new job the description is going to be supporting 2 executives, managing up to 2 employees, helping with 2 out of town offices, supporting 13 principles + office management + jack of all trades for a much larger company. (Current company is 10, new company is 200+) So almost double the responsibility I have now. The original job description was more vague and they said they are fleshing it out more but everything they are talking about I’m willing to do and it would be a step up career wise. So I figured once they have a more detailed description it might be fair to give a market range salary for that kind of job (which is actually higher than what I make.)

    2. MommaChem*

      I was able to successfully get an extra week of PTO at my current job by just asking for it during the salary negotiations. I said something like, “Based on my current level of experience, I have been getting 3 weeks of vacation per year. Since we’re not able to increase the salary you’ve offered, can we increase the vacation you’re offering to those 3 weeks?” The HR manager I was on the phone with at the time jumped on it. “I can definitely do that. No problem!” And I wasn’t in the good negotiating position you’re in, I was unemployed at the time and really anxious about getting back to work. Go in with the confidence that the worst they can do is say no. Then make your decision from there. Good luck!

      1. Trisha*

        I would discuss the total compensation package – as in, a slight drop in salary is acceptable IF it is accompanied by other bumps in compensation. I would specifically state, “currently I receive 3 weeks of PTO and I’m looking to maintain that. Is that something that you have the flexibility to negotiate?”

      2. DaniCalifornia*

        Oh that is great wording thank you so much!!! I really appreciate it. I struggle with saying things in the moment.

    3. Voly*

      Based on my experience, health insurance alone is worth $6-10k+/year. If you add 401K matching to that, that benefits package can be worth $15k+.

  40. Anon nonprofit worker*

    I work closely with a colleague who has been underperforming for years. Every year during our busy season she will cover the fact that she is behind on work and it ends up impacting my own work. Last year when I found out work was not getting done I had a 1:1 meeting with her and I said that we were going to need to loop in her boss and she started crying and begged me not to say anything.

    I was startled by this and then soon after our meeting her boss ended up resigning and I never ended up saying anything. Then this year, the same problems started happening during our busy time and it was like each week the problems were getting worse even after speaking with her. I eventually had to tell her new boss. I told her ahead of time, because we work closely together and I like her so I didn’t want her to be surprised. In the meeting her boss ended up inviting everyone from her department except for her (which felt very weird to me) and we troubleshooted a way to have the work done on time for the rest of the busy period.

    After that meeting my coworker has been cool towards me and just yesterday she announced her resignation. I know that I didn’t do anything personal against her, I was just doing my job but I feel horribly guilty. We sit next to each other and I’ve really enjoyed working with her and she is a kind person. I hate the idea that she will leave and we will be on bad terms. Advice? Anyone else have a similar situation?

    1. Rey*

      I don’t think you’ve done anything wrong here. You reported a work problem to her boss in regards to how it was affecting work getting done, and you have no way of knowing how much that played into your coworker’s choice to resign. Also, she resigned, and I am taking that at face value (not, “you can resign, or we will fire”). Based on her coolness, she might still be working through those feelings (realizing that she was under-performing and that her new boss wouldn’t let her freeload like the last boss) but that does not mean you have to do anything to make it up to her. Give her space to feel those emotions (as long as it’s just coolness and not anything harmful to you or another coworker) and act as you normally do. You might feel uncomfortable, but I can’t think of anything you could say or do that are guaranteed to fix it without any possibility of backfiring on you or making it worse.

    2. A day in the zoo*

      Yes, and it sucked. We had been friendly for several years, but the work issues overpowered the friendship. It was never the same after that and we soon lost touch after I left that job. She was/is a great person, but she lacked the empathy or self-awareness to see how her work issues burdened the other members on the team.

      Sometimes you just have to let it be what it is.

    3. Sam.*

      I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago. It was someone I worked really well with and respected (and vice versa). Then she was put in charge of a major project she didn’t handle well, and then she made it worse by trying to hide the issues. I was one of the people who flagged some of the problems on the ground, and while I don’t think she personally blamed me, I felt badly since I knew there were extenuating circumstances.

      Anyway, I wrote her a card noting the things I appreciated about working with her, thanking her for the ways she helped boost my own career, and wishing her luck. A year later, she heard I’d taken a new job and responded in kind.

    4. BRR*

      I’m in a sort of similar situation except the frustrations from dealing with my coworker’s mistakes now far trumps their likability. This sounds kind of harsh but because it seems that your colleague knows they were underperforming, they had time to get out and chose not to. This is on her and I imagine she will get over it in time. I would say it’s incredibly normal for you to feel this way in this situation.

    5. samiratou*

      I agree that you did nothing wrong, but I don’t know if there can be any salvaging the friendship. She’s known for years that she hasn’t been able to keep up but has taken no proactive steps on her own to address it and bring her work up to standard, and while she’ll probably blame you for her shortcomings, the situation is in no way your fault. You did her a favor by giving her an extra year that she failed to use wisely.

      I’m sorry, though, it’s a sucky situation.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      This is why some people have at-work-friends only. Because it goes good until it doesn’t. This so sucks, I am sorry.

      As a latch ditch effort, say what you have said here. That you enjoyed working with her and you think she is a kind person. Then, expect nothing to happen. If she responds positively that is sheer luck.

      And this is why covering for people doesn’t do any good. The only mistake I see here is that you could have told your boss the first time it happened and you could have mentioned that you tried talking to her yourself. Then let your boss handle it from there. Here’s the background, if a problem is bad enough that we have to talk to a cohort, then the problem is bad enough that we need to keep following it no matter what hurdles come up. Because she had lost her boss, all that would be left is your boss for you to talk with about the situation.

      However, you were more than fair, you told her upfront what the problem was and you let her know that you had to go speak to her boss. That is more than many people do. She probably has a mixed bag of emotions and maybe just giving her a little space is the most gracious thing to do.

  41. Levels*

    A mix of imposter syndrome and mixed signals here. When do you consider yourself out of entry level? I just don’t know what to feel ok about applying to for certain jobs.

    I have about 2 years of paid professional experience, 3 years of unpaid internships during undergrad/grad, 2 years of very part time work, and a one year fellowship (these all happened at the same time, so like 5 years total of unpaid/low paid student work.)

    My colleague tells me I should be applying for roles that are above entry level but sometimes I feel nervous because I don’t have any supervisory/management experience (though would love to try!) besides informal experience in volunteer experiences. How does one overcome the fear and what do I consider myself when I’m applying for jobs?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      At that point, I’d say you’re midlevel. I’d be looking for a title like Coordinator or maybe Manager in my field, in your field it may be something else. Entry level employees are those that need to receive very specific instructions, are likely new to the workplace entirely, and need close supervision. After your level of experience I don’t expect to have to explain to you what a fax is or how to dress for the office or that you have to be here on time every day, yes every single day of the week.

      1. Levels*

        Ok, that’s good to know! So even unpaid experience would add to my “professional experience”? I keep thinking that because I wasn’t given a salary for it, it doesn’t count (especially when online applications ask for my salary of that internship position when it was $0.) And then I feel like a young dud because my resume just reflects my salaried experiences.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          I’d say this depends on the situation, but if you’ve had exposure to the specific kind of work they want the role to do – like, you’ve used this database they want you to take over, you’ve handled the kind of questions they want you to answer on the job, you’ve wrangled volunteers and they want you to wrangle – that counts for something whether paid or not. True entry level the employer assumes they’re going to have to teach you from square one, and the salary is typically commensurate with that. If you’ve built databases for fun or profit, and I need you to build databases – that is still experience to me.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      A professional group I’m part of considers Early Career to be 0-5 years in your field, Mid Career to be 6-10 years in your field, and Established Career to be 11+ years in your field.

      And that unpaid/low paid work absolutely counts. It looks to me as though you’re counting 2 years of part time work as equal to 1 year of full time work, which is a good rule of thumb. So that would put you solidly in the Mid Career area.

      I’m personally Mid career verging on Established in my field, and I’m only just starting to get formal supervisory/management experience. (This may be influenced by the fact that I’m in software development, where there are paths to be a high level individual contributor with no/limited management responsibilities.) Even if that’s not the case in your field, I agree with your colleague that you should absolutely apply for stretch roles – everyone has to start somewhere, even with management.

      1. Levels*

        Oh I see! Thank you. That makes me feel a lot more confident knowing I can definitely count my unpaid work as experience.

      2. hermit crab*

        Those definitions of Early Career, Mid Career, and Established Career are super interesting! Is there anything after the Established category? Personally, I have 10 years of full-time work experience plus assorted part-time teenager jobs, work-study gigs, summer research positions, etc. I’m certainly not entry level anymore, but I’m also not sure I would even characterize myself as Mid Career — if a career is 40 or 50 years long, I won’t reach the midpoint part of it for at least another decade!

        And yes, a lack of formal management/supervisory experience does NOT mean you lack experience in general!

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          To me, the relevance of early part time jobs depends on what the job responsibilities are. I used to work at a skate rink and a plant store as a teenager, and even though I did gain some job skills I wouldn’t count those years towards professional experience in software design.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      There are a lot of jobs in between entry level and management. I’d also caution you to be careful how you read the requirements in a job posting — if it says “3 years related experience,” you probably don’t have that, but you do have “3 years work experience.”

      1. Levels*

        Oh I see. Even if my internships and fellowship relate directly to the job I’m applying for?

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I mean, it depends — on the length of time and intensity of the work. When I see these things on resumes I pro-rate the timing. So if you had X job for 6 months while being full-time student, absent any other information, I would assume you weren’t working more than 20 hours a week, so would count that in my head as 1/4 of a year of experience, more or less.

          Basically, I’m urging you not to be the people who put “I have five years of experience in this field” when they are one year out of college. Maybe you have been working in the fields since 2013, but it’s not quite the same thing.

    4. Washi*

      I think the tricky thing about “entry level” is that it’s come to mean “early career” rather than “no previous experience needed.” I’ve often seen jobs listed as an “entry level opportunity” that also require 2-3 years of experience. So you and your supervisor might be more on the same page than you realize, if they are talking about entry level as in the kind of jobs where you don’t need any previous experience.

      Other than that, it probably depends on your field! If it’s really competitive, you might still be entry level, and if you have a hot degree and coveted experience, you could be well beyond that.

    5. JessicaTate*

      You should apply, even when you think it’s a stretch. I think your colleague is right. Other comments re: coordinator-type titles seem spot-on.

      I’ve left this comment before, but I once read about a study that showed when women looked at a job ad and thought, “I think I’m a little bit under-qualified for what they’re asking,” they tended not to apply to the job. Men in the same situation tended to go for it (and then sometimes get the job). It was an important reminder to me that I shouldn’t discount my own experience as “not good enough.” And when I did once apply for a job where I thought I was less than perfect, I got the offer and they pursued me pretty hard. While the study was about gender differences, I think the lesson applies to anyone having this type of self-doubt. Man or woman, if it’s a matter of interpretation, go for it. Let them decide.

  42. Allonsy*

    There’s something that I’m curious about, and I don’t have enough experience in the office environment to know if this is weird or not. I’ve been at my company for almost four years, and every year, around the same time, upper management does a complete restructuring of our department. Everyone trades clients, moves desks, some get new supervisors, and even new titles (even though pay and responsibilities don’t change)… the clients even know something is going on, because there are complaints that they never have the same representative for very long, but management just kind of shrugs at that. Is this a normal thing, or is it weird? Seriously, they’ve done this every year I’ve been here without fail. The company as a whole sort of does this, too, but not quite as frequent as my department.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Huh, that seems weird, but … kind of good? I almost wish more orgs DID do this. But I have never encountered it before. It’s also weird that it seems to be unstated, versus just being the open policy.

    3. Mazzy*

      Very weird. They’re probably hurting customer satisfaction. Most clients love stability once they get a good account manager.

    4. AnotherJill*

      They may be concerned about people getting to be too buddy-buddy with clients. By periodically swapping around, it greatly reduces the chances of favors being down that could ultimately negatively affect the company. I would be inclined to bet that it all originated with some sort of financial issue in the past.

    5. samiratou*

      Are you in finance or work with clients in financial services? If so, I think that makes sense. At my company finance people are encouraged/required to move around to different departments every few years. Presumably to help protect against fraud-type situations or just people getting too familiar with their own projects & data and developing blindness to issues or changes that come up.

      Or it could be as AnotherJill says, they don’t want you to get too close to clients and decide to strike out on your own and take them with you. We also have this problem with our sales reps (fortunately they tend to take the PITA clients and we don’t necessarily miss them that much).

      1. Allonsy*

        We’re a vendor of sorts, and management always pushes us to create better relationships with our clients. That’s why I’m finding it strange that we’re doing all this switching when they want us to cultivate those relationships. It’s hard to do when you only have them for a year or so!

    6. twig*

      One of our vendors does this (I want to say Apple?) which is frustrating because I never know who to talk to about which problems — Or I do know who to talk to but they have limited or no experience with our institution and certain things need to be explained over and over again with each new rep (and sometimes we get the rep from three years ago back….)

      It’s difficult to form working relationships with vendors who do this as opposed to say “I know, I’ll call Lance! he’s been taking care of us for the last 5 years and knows our situation and history”

      1. Allonsy*

        We’re a vendor! (but not Apple.) This happens a lot! Most of the time our clients call the front desk and just say they don’t know who their rep is anymore. And we are definitely guilty of switching the clients and then everyone ending up with the same ones a year or two later. Maybe it’s normal for a vendor-type place?

  43. Tomato Frog*

    Story of how I used my AAM knowledge (for good??) in my job hunt! I thought it might be interesting to other people who are job hunting and find themselves asked to do something they’re not comfortable with as part of the process.

    I’ve been interviewing for a job at a university library. Their HR rep contacted me to say they’d like contact references…. including my current manager. After being annoyed and anxious for a few hours, I wrote back to say I wasn’t comfortable telling my manager I was considering leaving without an offer in hand, or at least knowing the details of the offer. We arranged a phone call.

    The HR rep told me they had never hired without talking to the person’s current supervisor first! Interestingly, she said that they never revoked an offer based on a manager’s reference, even when there was tension, and it worked out fine as long as the candidates had told them what to expect and why. I said my concern isn’t that my boss’s reference will torpedo the offer, my concern is that if it doesn’t work out for any other reason, my boss will know I’m looking to leave and I might lose out on projects or have my work reassigned.

    Since getting the manager reference seemed very important to them, I asked if they could make an offer, with the offer contingent on a reference from my manager. The HR person told me that that just wasn’t done; she seemed to think I’d invented the concept! I told her that I knew for a fact (*koff*from AAM*koff*) that it was done at other places. (This was all very genial, by the way, though it may not seem so in the recap.) And then she said, Okay, just because we haven’t done it before, I don’t see why we can’t do it now, I’ll make arrangements. And just like that, it was sorted.

    It’s a pretty good outcome, though I second-guessed myself a lot after the conversation. My sister says that I’m doing a favor for the people who come after me, and that probably other people have been uncomfortable with it in the past but didn’t know they had options. That thought makes me feel better. I would still prefer to not ask my boss for a reference at all. I’m going to be massively inconveniencing her by leaving now; asking for a reference on top of that is not something I’m looking forward to.

    1. Bostonian*

      Yes, you are doing a favor for the people who come after you!

      I’m surprised that they can’t see what an awful situation this puts you in! “Hi manager, I interviewed at another company and have an offer, and to add insult to injury, can you provide a reference for me for this job?” (Obviously that’s not exactly how it goes, but still…)

    2. Jady*

      I’m amazed places like that find employees at all.

      Any place that told me they had to have a reference from my current manager before they would even present an initial offer would have immediately gone in my rejection pile without a second thought.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        I was prepared to walk away if they insisted they had to talk to my boss before any offer. It’s so strange that they haven’t been confronted before with how this seems from the candidate perspective. I think it’s really a mark of how little power most candidates have/feel they have, that I’m the first candidate to push it to this point (and I didn’t even push the point as far as I might have, or maybe even should have).

        1. Someone Else*

          I’m glad you got them to see reason. I’m always puzzled when I read stories like this because actually when I applied for current job, my then boss was a reference, sang my praises, told new boss I was the bee’s knees, etc. And new boss could.not.get.over. how bizarre it was to him to be speaking to my current manager telling him to hire me away. It made sense at the time, I had no room for growth at previous job, and a great relationship with prev. boss. But it really stuck with me how at my new company they were completely perplexed and amazed to be talking to my at-the-time current employer. He kept bringing it up through about five interviews how odd an experience that was for him. I do think he was a little over the top in how weird he thought it was, but certainly his angle is/should be much more common than hiring managers who want to go around jeopardizing people’s jobs.

          1. Wishing You Well*

            In no way does this apply to you, but hiring managers might consider this:
            In my old company, the “losing” boss oversold/praised an outgoing employee to their new company because they were desperate to get rid of him/her. The ex-employee had triggered a class action lawsuit by getting rid of all the women under him/her. My old company even used this technique for internal transfers! Geez!

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      This actually isn’t uncommon in academics. It’s really common to ask to speak to a person’s current manager at both the libraries where I have worked and the ones where I have interviewed. I have always been able to make it contingent on an offer and I’ve never had push back, but I also have always had managers who knew I had flown out for an interview and were good people.

      Unfortunately, it is really hard to schedule three to four days off you need for an in-person interview in academics without people wondering and knowing why. Generally, the interview is one day, there’s dinner the night before and I like having a day to just look around the town I might be living in.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, I work in healthcare IT for a teaching hospital and they required a reference with my then-current manager before they could make me an offer. I thought it was the oddest thing ever; why would they want to let my boss know that I’m looking? Things were going sour at my old employer; that’s why I was leaving and I was worried that I would just be giving my old boss more ammunition. It all ended up working out but it was extremely stressful.

  44. anon for this*

    There have been growing technical reasons for us to consider making a significant change to one of our teapot designs. But it will require a *major* change to our manufacturing process, and manufacturing is hugely resistant to change and has in the past taken far more minor changes very poorly. I am conflict-avoidant and no good at this politics thing, so I have a hard time telling how much of their opposition is just the grumbling that anyone being forced to change might offer, to be overlooked with a smile but a professional push forward anyway, and how much of it is a real feeling of management forcing things on them that make them feel like they have no voice and aren’t being consulted or considered, that should be addressed. In the past I have tried to meet one on one with the managers in manufacturing to talk about the technical case for why we are making a change, express a desire to involve them in the proceso s of figuring out how to accomplish it, and was pretty much met with an attitude of “I don’t care why, I’m not going to help you, I just hate you for making me change.” My boss wants me to implement this by far more difficult change now, though, and from a technical standpoint I agree that we should at least explore how we’d do it, and I have two warring instincts on how to handle the inevitable resistance.

    One: Try to meet one on one with manufacturing managers and employees early on to fully explain why we’re doing this, express my understanding that this is not easy and that I do not do this lightly but that it is in the best interest of the company, ask them to give me more information on their concerns (and probably try to solve every one of them before proceeding too far),because making the effort of trying to bridge the gap is important even if it is just met with hostility. Perhaps if I just do it *enough*, I can turn the hostility into cooperation.

    Two: Push forward with the development work, pulling them in when I need their specific input or action, maintaining an attitude of, of course they’ll work with me, because, I do have the position and judgement to know this is the right approach and it is indeed my job to make that kind of decision, and it indeed is their job to work with me, and I’ve already seen I can’t fix their attitude, so why waste all that time with talk? And try to cheerfully let the hostility roll right past me.

    1. Ali G*

      I’ve been in your situation where the decision I, along with management, made, were implemented by others and those other teams were always resistant to change.
      I found a few things to help:
      1. Enlist a champion from “their” side. Who runs their department, decides on pay raises, etc.? Get that person on board and have him/her work with you on presenting the New Thing.
      2. Present the New Thing (with person from #1 and if possible other senior staff) as something that will be done, but the exact how and when are not yet written in stone. Actively seek feedback on these two things, not the New Thing.
      3. Present the case for the New Thing in a way that shows how ultimately it will benefit the team. Will it allow the company to serve more clients or charge more for the product (i.e. more money for them?)? Will it create a more efficient process ultimately that will actually make their lives easier down the road?
      4. Along with person from #1 and with input from #2, set timelines, key milestones and hold people accountable. If you can, try to work in some sort of extra incentive for meeting the timelines and milestones.
      5. Always manage this group as a team with person from #1. It sucks that you need someone else to help you with this, likely because the change resisters probably don’t respect you as much they do the other person, but ultimately all that matters is that you get to do your job and implement the New Thing. And it’s a good skill to have to be able to work collaboratively across departments.

      1. anon for this*

        Thanks for those tips! I am not entirely sure if in this situation I have a person such as in #1, those roles are the ones most strongly against and that’s part of my issue. But I could at least enlist some sideways help from some other managers who might have a better rapport with that department in general in a better way. And I appreciate the idea to get feedback on the when and how but not the what.

    2. LQ*

      Definitely go for 1! And read up on change management a bit. I’d go into it with an open mind and not just ask for their concerns about this change, but ask about other changes they think would help you get at the goal. You can anticipate a session of just pure complaints but if you give them some tools to drive toward something you might make improvements.

      I’d also say that making sure you talk about why is going to be really important.

      You don’t have to solve every concern, but if you can get a couple you can make huge strides. I’ve found tremendous effect in being able to essentially wave a wand and get a little thing fixed that is a huge annoyance. My favorite was that people couldn’t see something on a page and had to go digging through email every time to get the answer. Well someone (not actually me this time) had screwed up so the thing on the page wasn’t displaying correctly. A “let me fix that right now” and then it’s done by the time they are back to work? Won a lot of space for the 10,000 things I couldn’t fix. It won’t be infinitely powerful, but if you genuinely want to make it better and there is space* that will go a long way.

      *sometimes the space between is just too vast to cross and it’s laced with anger and frustration and danger, but sometimes it is deceptively dark but not that wide

      1. Ali G*

        That’s a really good point. If there are valid concerns or if they see the change as just another annoying thing management is up to, you can earn a lot of capital by going to bat for them on something else.
        When I was trying to implement a new data system at Old Job, during the process I got a lot of kvetching about other stuff from the team I needed to get on board with it. One thing in particular had been an on-going issue and it was actually going to interfere with my project. So I took the problem to upper management and was like “we will never get new system up and running until we solve this. this is what we should do (insert what the team wanted all along).” All of a sudden getting it fixed was not an insurmountable task. I earned some thanks that day :) Then it was back to kvetching.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Yes, try for No. 1. You should acknowledge that the change will require extra work by employees and, if at all possible, you should push for raises for the employees to reflect this ahead of time . If you wait until after the change has been implemented, many employees are going to think that the reward for making the change is too little, late and it will increase cynicism and resentment in the workplace.

      Make sure that the department has the support they need in terms of people. You might need to an extra person or two during the transition to take up the slack that will result when the core team members are busy implementing the change and don’t have time to devote to their normal job tasks. (And if, as has always been my experience, the changes result in more work you should consider adding this person or these people to the team.)

      Be very humble and be ready to take responsibility for the unanticipated problems that will inevitably crop up along the way. Ask for demonstrations of support from your supervisors and management. The team needs to see that upper management is aware of what is going on and that they recognize what is going on and the extra work that they are doing. When the project is successful be ready to share that success and to publicly thank the team for the extra work they put in, in making the change.

      Ali G’s suggestions are very helpful, and it is her third suggestion, where most change agents drop the ball. Even if it benefits the team overall, serves more clients or allows the company to charge more for the product there’s usually a big disconnect before the team members might actually get more money for their extra work and by the time they get that money there’s a good chance that they will feel that it hasn’t really been worth the effort and that the recognition is lacking.

      I suppose there’s chance that it actually could create a more efficient process that might make their lives easier down the road, but that hasn’t been my experience. These kind of changes usually do benefit the company overall, but on a personal level they just created a more complicated process and extra work for the people charged with carrying them out for the foreseeable future, along with no recognition of the extra work and no reward at all. It almost feels like being punished.

      Lastly, if the team ends up having to put in extra hours, instead of parties to celebrate, consider giving the team some time off. When you’ve spent a whole bunch of time working with a certain group of people, you might not want to party with them and might really want to get away from them.

    4. Bea*

      First, know this is by far the norm in manufacturing. The product on team will loath anything new or changed because of the learning curve. They know when it messes up in the beginning, they’ll get a lashing. They also feel the old way is so easy and right and nobody outside of the floor “gets it.”

      Be firm. Don’t take it personally. They will get over it after the process becomes routine to them.

      I’ve been in manufacturing for my entire career. I adore each team but they’re stubborn and set in their ways. NOBODY has ever held a grudge in the long run. They’re just grouchy.

    5. Anon anon anon*

      Aim for one and really focus on listening. Not just with the managers, try to involve the people on the floor. Take the time to talk about why the change needs to be made and listen to the team about how. Ask about their reservations.

      I make very long stakeholder lists. Not just the people who sign off, but also everyone who does the work. And the people who might care. Sometimes their reservations are completely reasonable and I have to change directions.

      Sometimes all the emotional labor of change management fails, but it’s still worth trying. You might not know who the unofficial lead is, their attitude can make things much smoother.

      That said, the worst one I was on was called project Nike for just do it. It was the right thing for the company and security was there when it was announced to the affected employees. Sometimes two is the only route.

  45. Lil Fidget*

    Struggling right now with a problem that used to be to my advantage: when you start a new job and someone else has been there longer in an org, but has your same title, and is training you and assigning tasks … they start to sort of become your quasi boss. I used to be this person and it was nice, as I generally got to direct the assignments and set up work flows the way I liked them, as the new people came on board. Now I’m new, and I’m chafing. This other person has experience with the org, but I have more experience in the field, and I hate feeling like I have to listen to her.

    1. Woman of a Certain Age*

      I can only offer my sympathy. You’re in an awkward and unpleasant situation. Bite your tongue, bide your time and try to learn as much as you can about how they do things at your new job. Down the road you can probably implement some changes to make things more to your liking.

  46. Sapphie_girl*

    I am wondering how much “say” your supervisor/manager has over the language you use and thoughts you express at work. I not talking about vocabulary, but more the message being conveyed. For example, I expressed that something (that I produced several years ago) was not useful at the moment and was told that I should not say such things. I mentioned that I would be interested to see some team members reactions to a new process and spent several minutes trying to explain why I would say something like that (I am interested to see how they will react and what we can learn from that). In both cases I came away feeling chastised for expressing my thoughts (and these are all one on one situations, and not in front of other staff). I want to know what others think is acceptable for a supervisor to “manage”

    1. LQ*

      It’s kind of hard without knowing more. But I’ve been in the first situation and been chastised by my manager. He chastised me (not really but it felt like it) because he pointed out (rightfully) that doing that work that felt not useful (horrible, shitty, worthless…) was useful because it helped me understand things I understand that I needed to get to. Yeah it sucked that I had to fail at a project, but now I understand what a failing project looks like and organizationally that’s important because I can spot that earlier and step in to deal with it (or ask boss to deal with it).

      And sometimes you just need to explain why. Why do you want to see reactions? Asking why doesn’t mean you don’t have good reasons. It could mean anything from “I don’t know why you’d want that” to “I want to hear your thought process on how you got there” to “I wasn’t really paying attention and need an extra minute to think about this.”
      I once wrote out a bunch of questions I had on a project and then went through and tried to answer them with my reasoning spelled out. I took it to my boss who said I got most of the answers wrong, or at least incomplete. But I was thinking about it in the right way. This means that he’s going to trust that I’m going to make the right decisions on things when I get enough information.

      Do you and your boss have a hostile relationship?

      1. Sapphie_girl*

        Thanks for your perspective! No, typically I have a really good relationship with my supervisor, so I think this stuff feels like it comes out of left field.

    2. Ender*

      I can talk to my own peers and direct managers as I wish (so long as I’m not rude obv) but I always run messages to senior management by my boss coz he understands all the politics I don’t in the org.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It depends on your arena. My boss watches my wording like a hawk. It doesn’t bother me. I just try to copy her style. It’s necessary in our arena.

      Ask your boss why. Leave off your explanations and listen to her rationale. Make note of it, so that your messages are more in line with her communication preferences.

      I can just see my boss telling me not to say something was not useful at the moment. The rational is that it’s a big no-no to say something is not being used, even if it’s just for the time being. Look at the overarching point, you want people to look at new things. So skip the references to the old things and talk about why the new things are a good idea.

      From what you say here you were corrected for one thought, not for all your thoughts. It sounds like the conversation got lost in talking about Unused Thing and the whole concept of moving forward was abandoned in the process.

      Like you are saying my boss never corrects me in front of others. Some of the stuff makes no sense to me because I am new to the field. And I think some of it is my boss’ perception of what she thinks is going on. But she is my boss so I follow her lead, bottom line she has never lead me off course. She has never let me fall into a bad spot nor has she let me embarrass myself in front of others. There are times where I know I have to say X, NOT Y and I am not sure why. So I just do it.

  47. BirthdayWeek*

    After applying for a job, I had two phone interviewers – one with the hiring manager, one with the person who is the head of the department. Got through both of those interviews totally fine, spent an average of 30 mintues on each call.

    Hiring manager emails me asking me to complete an exercise that would reflect the kind of work I would be doing in the position – Okay, great! While sending over the exercise details, he also asked me for my availability to hop on a Skype call the next Monday to talk about my exercise submission, my process, etc. I send the exercise to him that night and lay out my availability for the Skype call.

    No response. I send another email later that week asking for details for the call. Nothing. The Monday we were scheduled to have the call comes and goes. I leave a voicemail. No response. I am totally ghosted! I know a lot of people may be thinking that my exercise submission was total crap. Maybe it wasn’t what they were looking for, sure! I’ve worked in this industry for six years doing the kind of work they asked for, so it’s hard to believe what I submitted doesn’t warrant any response. A rejection would be better than nothing. And if they’re keeping me on the back burner incase a more desirable canidate drops out – then the hiring manager shouldn’t have suggested a hard date to have a Skype call. Just needed to vent everyone. UGH!

    1. WellRed*

      It doesn’t sound like you actually had a skype call scheduled, or am I missing something? I mean, this isn’t ideal, but hiring often gets bogged down.

      1. BirthdayWeek*

        Well, it was ‘scheduled’ meaning the hiring manager mentioned his side wanted to speak with me on Monday, but never gave a specific time. So, half-scheduled?

  48. QueerHair*

    The question about masculine clothes on women a few weeks ago has had me thinking… I REALLY want to cut my hair into a more masculine/short cut. I’ve always wanted to buzz it, actually. If not that, even the half-shaved looks seem really cool. But I’m worried about what others will do – and if they will (correctly, but that’s not the point) not hire me because I look “gay.” Obviously I’m not in the most liberal area… What are the rules with women and short hair styles these days?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I think that with any sort of edgy haircut you run the risk of prospective employers crossing you off because of it. But if being yourself at work is important, it might be a good way to filter out workplaces where you couldn’t do that.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        +1 with Not Today Satan.

        I’m a straight woman with a buzz cut that I’ve had on and off and I do live in a very liberal area. I do think I lost out on a job due to my appearance. My hair wasn’t buzzed (just a step above it achieved with scissors) but I was dressed professionally and I really got the idea that I somehow turned off the interviewer by my appearance. He seemed pretty conservative and I think my haircut turned him off. It actually matched mine. LOL

        I think the perception of short hair on a woman is becoming less of an issue. You can start out with a shorter pixie and then gradually go shorter.

        If you can, I’d recommend finding a stylist that specializes in short hair or even going to a barber. I find regular stylists don’t always get the shorter haircut and more often than not I’d be slotted in for an appointment between clients getting color treatment done and I wouldn’t really get the haircut I wanted since the stylist was semi-distracted. If you can, even try finding a female barber. I have one and she’s fantastic.

        1. Manders*

          This is all really great advice. There are even styles between a feminine pixie and a buzz cut (like: side fade, crew cut, undercut, the “businessman” style that’s just long enough to be worn a few different ways with different products) that a barber can help you navigate.

          It might be slightly tricky to find one who’ll work with you in a conservative area, but I think it’s worth it for shorter hairstyles. I’ve got a habit of impulsively cutting my hair off over the bathroom sink, and short but polished styles are way trickier than they look.

          That said, if you really want a buzz cut, go for it and be prepared for the fact that you may be rejected by some businesses you probably wouldn’t enjoy working for anyway.

    2. Rey*

      Are you currently job hunting? If not and you are already well-established in your company, then I think it would be less of a concern. (To be clear, I think it’s absolutely terrible that you have to worry about the optics of a haircut since it has no affect on your ability to do your job.) Maybe check the employee handbook to make sure that the half-shaved look is not specifically mentioned, but to me, this seems like it would still be more acceptable than dying your hair an unnatural color. Also, as you mention you are queer, are you out at work? If yes, your coworkers might not be surprised when you debut your new haircut.

    3. Arielle*

      I don’t think there are any “rules” per se. It’s easy for me to say that I wouldn’t work anywhere that would reject me for having a gay haircut (I wouldn’t, and I have a very gay haircut) but I live in a liberal East Coast city with a large job market for my skill set. If there’s one employer in your town and it’s run by bigots you might play it safer.

    4. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I swear I’m going through a mid-life crisis and my hairdresser figured it out and gave me the short haircut of my DREAMS – but I had similar concerns to yours about “what will people assume?” I had an undercut in high school (maybe about halfway up and mid neck length overhair) and got called some pretty interesting names once, so I was a little hesitant about getting a short ‘do again, even though I kept telling him to shave it off the neck and cut it shorter. Just can’t stand hair on my neck at all.

      What he did was cut it short as possible using scissors and comb all the way around and I have a little flop of layered hair on top, but left parted. The first two weeks after a shower I could stand my flop of hair up on end so really, had I wanted to, I could have gelled it in place upright :) Not having the shave/buzz really softened the overall look, but it was still cut super short. I put styling dust and hair paste in to give it a messy appearance and, since I have really thin hair, it now has body and movement and ended up looking really chic as the flop usually settled over my forehead and eyes a bit (yet didn’t bother me somehow).

      Definitely find someone who knows short hair and how to work with your hair type for a short hairdo. You may want to gradually go shorter/more buzzed, especially if you are job hunting now (e.g. save the more drastic cut for when you’ve been in the job a while). Finally, my other half noted, when I had asked him if it was too short//too drastic – that if I loved the haircut then it didn’t matter what anyone else thinks – which is a good point for everyone NOT are boss/interviewer/prospective colleagues!

    5. Shelly574*

      I work at a conservative Christian college in the Deep South. So, super conservative. I mean, not like “Our female students can’t wear pants” conservative, but conservative none the less. Several of my coworkers have very short hair. I haven’t seen any true buzz cuts, but some stuff that comes pretty close.

      I think that there’s always the chance the people will assume you are something you’re not in interviews, but I can’t imagine it would be a problem in the work place. I would actually think the half-shaved look would get you more notice here than the buzzed haircut.

  49. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    International spammy job agency ignored my requests to remove me from their list and keeps calling me from a California number. Yesterday my phone sounded six times during my working hours. I sincerely regret the day that I send them my resume.

    3. A CAD Monkey*

      I have an app on my phone called MrNumber, it’s a spam call blocker and you can block specific numbers it it as well.

    4. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Thanks for all the suggestions. My phone doesn’t have the block number function available, so I tried the “do not disturb – contacts only” option, but it didn’t work. I’ll give mr number a try. Sadly I can’t report their number, since it’s a company that gathered my data locally but is calling (or making it look like) from the US, so it’s not breaking any regulations in either country.

  50. BeeBeeAte*

    I was asked to include a qualifications brief on my resume by a hiring manager who said that it would make my resume look more impressive. Thoughts? I had to google what it was, and all of the information is already in my resume. She also recommended that I make my resume less redundant, which is difficult because I am only on job two and it is very similar to my last job (teapot building and teapot construction.) Any advice on what she might mean? For example, for one job I have “increased teapot output by 10%” and the other has “led team to bigger teapot output by 15% over first year.”

    1. Peaceful easy feeling*

      I feel a separate qualifications brief might be too much, but if you have a short working history, it might not take up too much room.
      Personally, I frame my resume bullets or statements in this way: what I did, how I did it, and the results.

      You have results but now how did you do it? How did you increase teapot output? New technology, process/procedure, reducing barriers, adding resources? How did you bigger teapot output by 15% over first year.
      — Implemented XYZ technology reducing construction time by 10 hours, and increasing project completion by 15% from previous year.

      It shows a linear progression from activation to results.

    2. Lisa B*

      I might disagree with their advice- at two different jobs you increased teapot output? Why would you NOT want to feature that? I agree with Peaceful Easy Feeling that putting a little of the “how” behind it would be a good improvement. Definitely don’t take it out!

    3. Engineer Girl*

      There’s nothing wrong with a skills summary (assertion) as long as you have the evidence in the job listings. This is especially true if you want to call out unique skills
      Mine has stuff like real time embedded software, HWIL, team leadership, satellite launch operations etc.

      I agree with other advice on increasing outputs. If you did it on two different jobs then you list it twice.

  51. Ella Minnow Pea*

    So this is frustrating and I know many of us deal with stuff like this…I have a colleague who is in a different department but with whom I work very closely on a daily basis. She is nice and I like her a lot. However, she is incredibly negative, especially in the face of stress or when problems arise. She is always complaining about how much work Project Teapot will be or fretting over a plan coming together or what have you. It is exhausting. I feel awkward addressing it but I think I need to. How would you handle?

    1. WellRed*

      It is exhausting but don’t do what I did and pop off one day after she made one too many complaints (about something that was a good problem to have!). You could directly mention it to her as in “You say (negative thing) a lot. How come?” Otherwise, depending on how much you directly interact with her, I often try relentless positivity or just not engaging. Coworker complains. Response: “Mmmhmm.” “Oh, that’s too bad. I enjoy doing X.” “Isn’t the weather beautiful today?”

  52. mark132*

    This isn’t unique to work environments but it’s definitely magnified at work. I have a few coworkers who sometimes use too much (IMO) perfume/cologne. It can be suffocating in meeting environment. I’m wondering how to address this issue. My usual method is to say nothing, but it really is suffocating on occasion.

    1. AnotherJill*

      When last working, I had a small air purifier by my desk for this reason.

      Meetings are harder if in a small room, but I tend to sneeze violently around certain scents, so it was easy to say “someone is wearing something I react to”.

  53. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    So, I had a phone interview last Thursday. Immediately after, I thought I did well. (And then my brain kicked in a couple hours later and convinced me that I whiffed it.) I had a few questions that the HR rep couldn’t immediately answer but he said he’d get back to me with the answers. I sent a follow-up/thank you email after the interview.

    However……I’ve heard NOTHING since. I have a friend who works there and he said they tend to move at a glacial pace. But I’m inpatient and dying to ask if there’s any news.

    1. Anonymosity*

      Same. I had one too and it’s a job I would like to have. They said they’d get back with me mid-to-late week and I haven’t heard squat. :(

  54. Chameleon*

    A few months ago I put in an application for a stretch job. I heard nothing, which I pretty much expected. But this week, out of the blue, I got an email asking if I was still interested, and yesterday had a pretty good phone interview and they are bringing me in for a “campus tour” next week (I’m guessing it will be an informal interview type of thing).

    So excited! I realize that I still may not get the job but still!

    1. McWhadden*

      Congrats and good luck! Even if you don’t get the job (and I hope you do) it gives you are good idea of what you should be stretching for!

      1. Chameleon*

        Thanks! I’m particularly happy because I got turned down for a second interview for a position just after sending in this application and I was going through a period of “oh man, I’m gonna be stuck in my dead-end job forever.” But now I have a pretty good chance for at least one other job even if I don’t get this one.

  55. I got an awesome job!!!!*

    I was stuck in a toxic workplace for 3 years. I quit without anything lined up, but I secured a contract gig before my notice period was even done. That gig ended this week, and this week I also accepted an AWESOME job!!! It’s doing *exactly* what I am best at and want to be doing, and this type of job is pretty hard to find. Plus the commute is super short and the pay is good. AND I already know my new boss, who is awesome. I’m soooo happy. Also it’s weird not opening up Indeed or Idealist whenever I’ve bored!

  56. Nuan Cee*

    I’ve been in my current role for about 7 months now and I’m really loving it. It’s by far the best company I’ve ever worked for and would never imagined in my previous roles that I’d ever be so happy in a job.

    My issue today is really very minor but I do feel a little weird about it. One of my junior colleagues sent an email to her manager (who is not my manager but we all work in the same team) begging for permission to leave early today (the language was along the lines of “pretty please” and “we’ve all worked soooooo hard”). I was copied on the email along with another junior colleague (who does report to this particular manager). It’s not the type of email I would ever write as I think it came across as somewhat childish and that’s not the image I want to be projecting in my career. I was peripherally aware that they were writing the email but was focused on something else so not really paying attention. I’m concerned that my name being copied in makes it sound like I was part of it when I wasn’t. If I wanted to leave early I’m comfortable enough in my position to do so, and this manager in question would have no say over my hours anyway as I don’t report to her. My real concern is it getting back to my director (as this manager may ask him to permit the early finish). I know my director respects me and my work and I wouldn’t want to be associated in his mind with this email.

    Would anyone else find this uncomfortable or am I reading too much into it? I suspect it’s a bit of both and there’s nothing I can do that wouldn’t bring more attention to the email anyway.

    1. Ali G*

      That would bother me. Why did she copy you? Did she want her boss to think you all were in on this? That’s not cool lady.
      If anything I would talk to your co-worker and ask her not to copy you on emails that have nothing to do with you anymore. If your boss asks you about it, just be honest that you had no idea why Jane thought it was a good idea to copy you on that and you’ve asked her not to in the future.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oh, yikes. I wouldn’t worry about it, though. I wouldn’t assume you were part of the plan (if I received this mail) unless it said “can Nuan Cee and I leave early.”

      1. Nuan Cee*

        It was very much implied that she was asking for the three of us to leave early (as we’re the only ones physically in the office today).

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          So she’s asking someone who isn’t your manager to let you go early? Weird. I might try joking my way out of it with a reply all. “Thanks for thinking of me, Jane, but I’m fine. Or are you trying to get me out of the office today? ;-)”

    3. Murphy*

      I think it also sounds immature, but I wouldn’t worry about it affecting you. My guess is that she copied you guys hoping that you’d chime in with, “Yeah! We HAVE worked hard this week! Let’s all go home!”

    4. JessicaTate*

      Yeah, I’d be mildly annoyed too. But it’s possible your co-workers thought they were being nice by including you. Their thinking being: if they suddenly got the OK to duck out early, they would leave you as the only one in the office. They should have told you first, and given you the chance to opt-out of the message. But they sound maybe a tad immature on the professionalism scale.

      In your shoes, I’d probably just let it go. If my manager brought it up, I’d be straight with him: “I didn’t know they were sending that out, and wasn’t sure why they copied me on it. I pretty much ignored it at the time. But since you brought it up, I just want to assure you that I will always communicate directly with you if I need time off.”

      You could have a chat with the two colleagues to say something like, “Hey, it was nice that you thought to include me in your request, but I’d actually prefer if you ran it by me first before including me on anything like that. I have a different manager, so I might need to handle things differently.” I may be too soft by leading with “it was nice,” but I guess I would try to come from a place of giving them the benefit of the doubt while being clear “don’t do it again.”

    5. LilySparrow*

      It would annoy me, and I would ask my coworker to leave me out of her time-off requests in the future, because that’s between her and her manager, and it’s really none of my business.

      I’d probably frame it along the lines of some of the things Alison has said in the past about setting the tone. “I don’t want to set a precedent that we’re supposed to include each other in asking for time off from our own managers.”

      I know that’s not your main focus of concern, but it’s an appropriate thing to push back on that isn’t as personal as “your childishness is making us all look bad.”

  57. debonairess*

    Do people who dislike line managing others ever get used to it and start to enjoy it?

    I prefer to work independently and to be honest I find all the little interruptions, politics with peers (“that’s not my team’s job, its yours”), and admin requirements around line managing quite stressful and not at all enjoyable. I totally get that line managing is part of my job, and that not everyone likes all parts of their job. I do my best to be a good manager and have had excellent feedback from my direct reports; I try very hard to make sure my disliking of this bit of the job does not negatively affect those that I manage.

    But really, I would much rather be left to my own devices all day to work to my own projects and not have to manage lots of little pieces and admin surrounding other people’s work. It may well be that line management will always be one part of my job that I like the least…. in case fair enough.

    But is there any hope that someone like me could learn to actively enjoy managing, rather than tolerate it at best? Has anyone experienced that transformation?

    1. Time management*

      I don’t know the answer, but I’m in the same boat. I feel like The World’s Okayest Manager, probably because there are so many tasks that I really don’t enjoy. I’m trying my best, that’s all I can say.

    2. Trisha*

      Yes, you can move from “eh, I don’t really want to do this” to “I’m proud and engaged in the job I do.” My advice is to look at those parts of the job that you like the least and see how they are structured (if they are at all). For instance, leave requests used to drive me crazy – I don’t need a lot of the details that people would provide me, and I don’t want to be interrupted constantly about days off next month, medical appointments, etc. So for me, I set aside the first 30 minutes of each day to handle this task. That’s it. Unless you’re sick during the day and need to leave; even then, I had a meeting to discuss my expectations (i.e. don’t tell me you’re throwing up, don’t do into gory details, I need x, y and z and that’s it). There are always tasks that I don’t like (writing year end performance agreements) but I’ve found ways to manage those tasks (i.e. I keep running documents now for everyone – anytime there’s anything we’ve spoken about in our touchbase, I document right away).

    3. Chaordic One*

      Some people are easier to manage than others.

      I appreciate someone who will actually do their work (instead of goofing off), and I have come to appreciate the managed person who (in a demonstration of true grit and gumption) will google how to perform an Excel function, instead of asking me how to do it.

      1. debonairess*

        ha! LITERALLY had someone ask how to do something in excel this morning. So tempted to send them “let me google that for you” link. Probably not in the good manager’s code book though.

  58. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    This question is for 3 years into the future but–
    1. Has anyone gone on maternity leave while being a government contractor? What was that like?
    2. Has anyone gone on maternity leave while working for a small FMLA-exempt company? What was that like? I have short-term disability guaranteed pay for a certain number of weeks (e.g., 50% for 6 weeks I think). Also, the site I work at has a quite-nice lactation room.

    I like where I work, the pay’s quite nice, the coworkers too, but I am not looking forward to the possibility in the future of not having maternity leave if working for a small company…which mommy dearest has been scaring me with (fortunately I only see her once every few months at very most).

    Also, I know myself well–I’m not a telework person (I crave human contact) and I love the predictability of being at my office, and I like structure (re: work environment).

    Any success stories?

    1. Ranon*

      I work for a small company with no FMLA protections. Fortunately, I’m also partnered to someone who makes the majority of our household income and we could make unpaid leave work for as long as I wanted. Figuring that since no amount of leave was protected I might as well take what I wanted, I told my boss I was planning on taking six months and got zero pushback. Took the leave, came back at 32 hours/ week and a few months later got a killer performance review, a solid raise (I also finished up my professional license on maternity leave so that was part of the motive for the raise), and a lot of support for my new professional goals.

      Obviously this is a pretty best case scenario, but I can say it’s happened at least once!

    2. WellRed*

      No kids here, but my office of less than 20 people has accommodated three mat leaves in the last five years.A good company will allow maternity leave, no matter how small. Can’t speak to how the moms managed financially or what have you.

  59. Ali G*

    Had 2 interviews this week! The two jobs couldn’t be more different, but both interesting in their own ways. I should hear next week if I am moving to the last round (meeting the CEO, who would be my boss) for the one I really want. I hate waiting!!
    The second one has a longer timeline (and much lower salary), so I am forcing myself to keep looking in case the first doesn’t work out.
    I just want a job already!!

  60. Bob*

    Today I realized our work slack channel has giphy. I can now use random gifs in chats with colleagues. And there is a Rick and Morty emoji too. Its the little things in life that make me happy :)

  61. AnonAnon*

    Is this legal?

    My nonprofit organization runs a leadership development program. It’s a cohort-based program; there are around 20 participants per cohort, and each cohort meets for a year. We currently have two facilitators, each of whom leads one cohort. Both current facilitators are men, although over our 25-year history we’ve had a close-to-equal mix of male and female facilitators.

    We’d like to add a third cohort, which would require hiring an additional facilitator. I would strongly prefer that the third facilitator not be a man. My reasoning is program-related (women often face different leadership challenges than do men, and certainly trans and non-binary folks grapple with things that cisgender men and women do not); philosophical (I’m not down with having an all-male leadership team); and optical (we’d likely face criticism if we added another man to already unbalanced facilitation staff).

    I know that if a job has a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification you can seek to hire one gender over others. But I’m pretty sure this doesn’t count — we’re not trying to offer a women-only cohort, just make sure that we have the option to place a participant with a facilitator who isn’t a man.

    I’m both interested in the legality (which we’d need to address with our own lawyer before taking any action) and folks’ opinions on whether this is reasonable.

    What do you all think?

    1. Rey*

      I don’t know anything about the legality, so I’m only commenting on reasonableness. TLDR: I don’t think hiring a woman ensures that the group is friendly to diverse employees. Long-version: I think you are combining two separate issues here. 1) Your organization needs to hire a third facilitator. 2) You want to review the program and ensure that the facilitators (and other factors of the program) are friendly for female, trans, and non-binary individuals.

      In regards to #1, review your recruiting strategies, job requirements, etc. to ensure that you are not unintentionally targeting men or unconsciously turning off women to the position. You want to hire the best applicant for the position, with an especial hire for inclusivity and high emotional intelligence, regardless of their gender. A cisgender man with the right training and experience would provide more value to your organization than a mediocre or below-average applicant who happens to be female. Some studies have found that women are just as likely to internalize and express workplace biases towards women, so hiring a woman does not guarantee an inclusive training program.

      In regards to #2, if you are concerned that the program is not inclusive, then you should do training with the facilitators and make this a key priority in the coming year. A quick google search found this website: https://www.lever.co/diversity-and-inclusion and I think there will be more out there that will be able to help your facilitators. It seems that inclusivity is part of workplace culture, so having an inclusive training program starts with hiring individuals with high emotional intelligence and fostering an inclusive workplace environment from the top down.

      1. AnonAnon*

        Thank you for your thorough response — but it’s not really what I was asking about.

        I’m very confident in the skill, cultural competence, and inclusiveness of our two current facilitators. One has facilitated the program for 11 years, the other for 4 years; both are diversity and inclusion trainers themselves. We do not have difficulty attracting highly skilled women to the program (as participants or staff; we run about 60% female participants and have had a mix of male and female facilitators over the program’s 25-year history).

        So: I’m not concerned about the inclusiveness of the program or the ability of our current male facilitators to skillfully support participants of all genders. I AM concerned about the structural sexism that exists in all institutions that leads to fewer women in leadership positions, and I believe that having a non-male option would be a benefit (both in perception and in actuality) for our participants.

        1. AnonAnon*

          I should add: When I say I’m not concerned about the inclusiveness of the program, I mean that we’re very much on top of that. We assess the program with an equity lens rigorously and frequently, and while there are always more areas for growth and development I am not trying to solve a program content problem by hiring a non-male facilitator.

          1. Rey*

            So sorry for being off-topic. Tbh, I don’t really know how to address structural sexism if an organization is already doing everything they can in terms of hiring. I’m interested to see what advice other commenters have.

    2. Ender*

      I think I remember Alison saying it’s illegal to hire based on sex / gender but it is legal to do everything you can to make sure you get plenty of applicants in the applicant pool from your preferred sex / gender.

  62. Salad*

    I’m starting a new job soon and as I’ve reflected on my current on I realize two things I could improve on. 1: I’m bad at planning. I know what’s going on now, or next, but I don’t think about what I have to do today for something next week. To me it seems far away, but with all the other things I have to do this week, today might be my only time. I’ve started religiously using a calendar, which is helping, but any other advice for that? 2: This one is harder to solve, but I don’t know what I don’t know, so I don’t know what to ask for/plan for. I’m a very hands-on learner, so until I’ve done something once or a few times, it’s hard for me to think critically about it. For example, if someone explains a process to me, it just makes sense. I say ok, that makes sense, I can do that. But when I actually go to do it there are a lot more steps and unknowns. I’ve seen that other people can think critically when someone is explaining the process to them, think about what information may be missing, why something happens that way, etc. They have good questions to ask. How do you figure out these questions/unknowns before ever seeing the process in action?

    1. Rey*

      For #1, I highly recommend The 5 Choices to Extraordinary Productivity by Franklin Covey. This class was offered by my workplace, but you should be able to find the book. Tbh, I’ve gotten out-of-practice, but if I remember correctly, they recommend a 5-minute session each day to review what is happening tomorrow, and then a 30-minute? session once per week to look ahead and highlight what’s coming. Also, when you get something with a due date several weeks ahead, break it into individual tasks or checkpoints and put those in your calendar earlier in the process.
      For #2, sometimes I think of process questions in the moment, but I still end up going back to my supervisor once I’ve done the task a few times with additional questions. For my office, it’s better to address all questions at once, so when they are verbally describing the process, I will write myself notes with any questions, go and do a few times and continue adding to my notes, and then sit down once to address them all in one session.

    2. Ali G*

      For the first:
      Lists are your friends! I make a list of everything going on, then organize tasks into steps for each project or whatever I am working on and then add/cross off as needed.
      Also I am big Excel Geek, so for very intricate planning I make Action Plans in Excel. If you want more details I can share, but won’t bore you if you don’t.
      Second:
      As someone is explaining a process to you, try drawing it out on paper as they go. Then you have something visual to look at and you can maybe see where there are gaps in their explanation. But really most people are going to have a few goes at something before they really get it, so I wouldn’t worry too much about that.

      1. Salad*

        Thanks I’ll check out the book! I’ve done the 5 mins at the end of the day routine before and it definitely helps me. The key is keeping up the motivation to put in that last little bit of effort when I’m just DONE for the day. I think I have to realize how much it helps me though and that I’m helping my tomorrow self.

        1. Rey*

          I think there’s some people who do the 5 minutes first thing in the morning too, so if you are more of a morning person, that could be a good strategy. Good luck!

      2. Salad*

        Oops that first one was supposed to be replying to the comment above you.

        I am also a huge excel geek so would love more info on these action plans!! I’m a big visual learner too, so I like your drawing suggestion. Thanks!

      3. LilySparrow*

        I was going to say, I visualize myself doing the process while listening to the explanation. Kinda the same idea as drawing it out.

  63. Esteban*

    Hey, question about how to bring up inappropriate touching.

    This isn’t at work, but at a professoonal event. It went like this (we’re both men):

    Guy I don’t know: [puts his arm around my shoulders] Hey, what’s up?
    Me: Hey, no hands please.
    Guy I don’t know: [takes his arm up, then puts it back down] Are you serious?
    Me: Yeah. No hands, please.
    Guy I don’t know; Really?
    Me: Yes. Stop.
    Guy I don’t know: Okay then. [takes his arm off my shoulder]

    Am I right to complain about this? It was very uncomfortable to me. People usually don’t do this here. Should I have done something differently?

    I simply don’t like physical contact. There’s no reason behind it, but unless I know you well, I’m not comfortable with you touching me aside from something light and intermittent like a handshake, fist bump (common here), or tapping me on my shoulder to get my attention. I don’t think that not having a serious reason makes it any less valid for me to not want to be touched.

    1. Four lights*

      You are right to complain. It’s weird a guy you didn’t know did that in the first place, even weirder he didn’t stop the first time. Since you’re a man, I would be more aggressive next time. (Sometimes aggression is held against women.) You can also set away/ walk away.

    2. DrTheLiz*

      You are absolutely in the right – and good for you for standing up for yourself in the moment! You have every right and then some to not be touched at any point for any (or no) reason.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      You are right to complain. You do have a reason – you were uncomfortable being touched, and you didn’t like being touched. That’s plenty of reason right there. Plus Guy didn’t respect your polite “No hands, please”, and you’ve noted his behavior isn’t something usually done.

    4. debonairess*

      I think this is weird. I would find it weird and uncomfortable if a friend did this in a bar, and weird x 1 million from someone I don’t know in a professional event.
      The first situation (friend in bar) I think varies by people. Probably not everyone is as hug-phobic as me!
      But my feeling is the second situation would be weird to most people. Happy to corrected if others feel not.
      (For context, I am female and would find it weird if either man or woman I didn’t know did this; a man doing it might have other associated baggage, but it would still be v weird for a woman to do it IMO)

      “I don’t think that not having a serious reason makes it any less valid for me to not want to be touched.”
      –> I completely agree with this statement! In a professional setting I confess I might be more likely to say something like “do you mind? I’m not very touchy feely”. But I certainly don’t think your response was overly rude considering the rudeness of a random putting their arm around you.

    5. AnotherJill*

      Sounds like you just ran into a real jerk. Most people will respond to a request not to be touched by not touching you, rather than arguing about it.

      I dislike being touched by most people, as well. Although I am a woman, and I suspect that the male-male dynamic makes it a little different.

    6. Ender*

      I wouldn’t have said please. The second time he tried I would have physically shoved his hand away. I think you did very well keeping your temper.

    8. LilySparrow*

      The guy was being really wierd, and he was being really super wierd about pretending he didn’t understand your reaction.

      Was he sloshed? I can’t imagine a sober man in my part of the country putting his arm around a strange man in public, even in a casual environment. At a professional event, this would be completely off-the-wall. Like, “What the hell? Get off me! What’s the matter with you?” would be a normal reaction in that context.

      If it were after hours at a conference and he was drunk, it’s much easier to imagine. Still not appropriate at all. And you handled it exactly right.

      But if he was sober this is seriously bizarre to me.

    9. Observer*

      I hope you know who this guy is. Because if you are ever in a situation where he might be working with you (or for your company), you’re going to want to try to stop that from happening. This guy is trouble.

    10. Esteban*

      Thanks everyone for reaffirming that I’m not the weird one here. I dislike it when anyone I don’t know well touches me, but I’m not so bothered when someone taps me on the shoulder at work because I have headphones on — that’s a momentary thing and why would I be mad that someone I work with needs me for something? Wrapping your arm around a stranger’s shoulder is way too friendly at a professional event.

      I didn’t physically move the guy’s hand off me because I didn’t want to escalate and cause a heightened confrontation. I think in the moment I was thinking that the other guy might’ve said I was physically antagonizing him.

      I reached out to the organizers and they said they’ll be speaking to the guy, so I hope this is resolved.

  64. Rusty Shackelford*

    I mentioned in an earlier comments section that my teenager just got a job, and I’m curious about your thoughts on the process.

    1. Job is advertised on the employer’s website. It’s a part-time, retail job. The kid has no relevant job experience, but some related volunteer work and a very strong hobby connection. Mr. S and I help her write a resume and cover letter that emphasizes how her hobby ties into this retail position.

    2. Two weeks later, she gets an email requesting that she take a “personality test.” She does so, commenting that some of the questions were painfully transparent (i.e., “true or false: I always have to be right.”)

    3. One week later, she gets called for an interview.

    4. A few days after that phone call, the interview happens. She’s in a room with two other applicants and two managers. The managers say “don’t worry, this isn’t a competition, we have three openings.” The managers talk about the position(s) and tell them to expect another email with an offer, which they must accept to trigger another series of emails, and that they’ll most likely start a week from that date.

    5. A few days after the “interview,” she gets an email saying she’s been offered X position for $Y/hour. She accepts via email as instructed and waits for her new manager to call with her schedule.

    6. A couple of days before the alleged start date, she calls her new manager and is told there are more emails coming, and she’ll probably start a week later than originally announced.

    7. A couple of days after that, the next emails come, instructing her to fill out paperwork online, which she does. At this point, she believes her schedule will start next week.

    It just sounds like a crazy long drawn-out process. Is this how chain retail stores work now? (And yes, I do want to boast a little bit about helping her write a cover letter that got her hired without an interview, but considering that the other two applicants got hired the same way, it might not have made a difference at all!)

    1. samiratou*

      I can’t speak for all retail, but a cover letter for a part-time retail job seems…excessive. I got a seasonal job at Target last year and there was no way to upload anything, you just filled out the fields on the form and submitted it. A week or so later I got a call to schedule an interview. The interview featured a few “tell me of a time” question related to guest service, as you’d expect, and I was offered the position I applied for on the spot, and sent over to get slotted into an orientation group and that was pretty much it. We brought in our IDs & filled out the forms at orientation & got our training schedule from there.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        The online application form provided an option to upload both a resume and a cover letter, which surprised me.

    2. Bea*

      Personality tests are terrible. Always.

      That aside, holy crap, this process is insane for a job with such intense turnover rates. No, not normal from the friends I have who’ve done retail work.

      But given the corporate structure, I’m not too surprised they swerved on her this hard.

    3. Carnaxide*

      Have you googled this company and their interview process? I’ve always worked in an office and am usually surprised at what goes outside the office world… I was once off on a workday and walking in an empty mall when I took a call and realized there was an interview being conducted on the lounge chairs in the middle of the hallway right next to me… I found that so odd!

      What you are describing seems a bit odd to me as well but perhaps this is the M.O. at this company? I was once asked for 15 references and when I mentioned it to a friend who knew the company (Real Estate office) she said ‘oh everyone has to submit those’…

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        We did google their typical pay (because that was one of the questions on the application, OF COURSE) but didn’t see anything that indicated it would take so long to get through the process.

        (FIFTEEN REFERENCES????)

        1. Carnaxide*

          YES! Five from past positions, five from industry contacts and five personal… I dug them up, got the job after many other hoops (first interview was in a Starbucks two hours from the job, personality test as well)… they gave me a very low offer, I negotiated more… I got the job, did well and they wanted to promote me quickly because someone else wanted to move up… I ended up leaving because the place was just as crazy as it sounds! Should have run after the Starbucks review of my personality results… live and learn.

          Glassdoor.com’s information on interviews has been incredibly helpful to me, if they are there.

          Hope everything works out for your daughter!

    4. Birch*

      IME yes, that’s how it works now. Basically luck just to get through the whole process. When I was doing this (10 years ago) I didn’t even manage to get a retail job in the end because so many of those positions’ online ads didn’t link to anything, were never acknowledged, or I got ghosted after the personality test phase. I was DRASTICALLY overqualified and the best goody-two-shoes employee you could ask for. It’s horrible. They just view employees as disposable so all professional concerns go out the window. I hope your daughter gets the job worked out and that it turns out ok! And congrats to you for teaching her the basics of job searching at that age!

    5. IceTea4Meee*

      Honestly it all seems pretty standard for retail. Depending on the store the delay may be due to processing and things such a credit or background checks. I work PT at a department store in cosmetics and had to take a personality evaluation to determine which brands I could work for. My mom did a temporary holiday position in jewelry and had to wait 2 weeks for a full background and credit check.

  65. anon24*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to figure out what degree you want to go back to school for?

    My husband has an associate’s degree in transportation technology and works in the automotive field. He loves his job but doesn’t want to do it forever and isn’t interested in moving up in his industry. He wants to go back to school part time to get his bachelor’s, but he needs a degree where he can transfer most of his other credits. He has no idea what career he wants. He’s spoken to a few colleges and they just want to know what degree he wants to get into and won’t talk to him until he’s figured that out, but he doesn’t know how to figure it out. Any resources or advice?

    1. MTUMoose*

      If your husband is looking to get in Automotive an engineering degree is a golden ticket. Often a person won’t even be doing “true” engineering but having the degree seems to be a big requirement.
      Another option would be a business degree with a focus on logistics. Lots of demand for people who know how to get parts from point A to point B.

    2. There All Is Aching*

      The Highlands Ability Battery Test isn’t cheap (I think it’s a few hundred dollars), but I always recommend it to people who I trying to figure out next career or education steps. It tests skills and talents and suggests areas of study or work based on those that come mosg naturally to you. It was super clarifying for me, and I still find useful info in the post-test detailed analysis they did seven years on.

    3. krysb*

      He needs to find a reputable school that allows the transfer of all credits; additionally, I would ensure that school also takes CLEP/DSST exam credits. Personally, my school is an online school that does all of this, and it’s a state school, but definitely not the norm. I chose my school because of the ability to transfer maximum credits.

    4. ..Kat..*

      The career counseling center at his community college has aptitude tests that can help lead him in the direction of his interests/strengths.

    5. ronda*

      you can check with your department of labor and see if they have resources.
      my state does.

      if he likes his company, speak to them about what kind of positions they have and what kind of education is required. they may even offer to help pay for the degree.

      ask for information interviews with some folks doing those jobs to find out about what they do and what they like about it and what kind of education is required.

  66. Testing123*

    This is a question for those who have experience with USAjobs.gov. How do you include a cover letter? I have to fill out a very long electronic form for my resume, Beth there isn’t any place for a cover letter. My experience is unique and needs some explanation but I definitely qualify for the job. Any recommendations? I know people who were specifically asked to apply for jobs written specifically for them not passing the initial automated selection system. Any advice is appreciated.

    2. tippins*

      You can save other documents in your USAJobs profile, like college transcripts, military records, cover letters, etc. In my experience, after you submit the application you will be prompted to upload other documents, and sometimes (but not always) this specifies an optional cover letter.

    3. Formerly Finally a Fed*

      This is two separate issues. The first issue is getting through the automated system. I am not entirely sure, and I think different agencies can use different processes, but I think that the initial automated selection system only looks at the resume that you input electronically. In my experience, it’s basically a word search and matching algorithm. So, the usual advice of limiting your resume to a page does not apply. When I did not made it past the filter but people who worked FOR me did, it turned out their resumes were several pages longer than mine and detailed every task they did (multiple times for each project they worked on). Given this, I might be temped to include additional details that you’d normally put in the cover letter in your resume.

      The second issue is wanting to explain relevant experience to a hiring manager (if you don’t already know them). For this, you can do as tippins indicates and include a cover letter as additional material, or given the first issue, find a way to just include it in the resume content.

    4. Chaordic One*

      When I’ve applied for jobs using the site there was always a space to upload a cover letter and I always have.

    5. Penguin*

      It’s been a couple years since I applied to federal US jobs, but from what I remember I had to include a cover letter as the first page of my “resume” document. (Which was cover letter followed by more traditional resume.) You should probably take that memory with a grain of salt, though.

    6. Reba*

      What I have been doing is uploading the letter in the “Select Documents” stage — second step, after doing the Resume builder. That is also where you put in transcripts, certifications, etc. Then, once you “continue to the agency site,” and do the questionnaire, there is a stage where you select which of your documents to add to your application. I put the cover letter under “Other” since AFAIK there is no category for it.

      Hope that helps.

    7. Not All Who Wander*

      As everyone else said, it’s under the documents tab as “other”.

      As far as people not making it past the screen, you need to remember this is your *application* NOT a resume as private industry thinks of them. Every single thing they need to know about what you did in a position needs to be in that form under each job. It is not like private where there are going to be detailed follow-up questions specific to you in an interview. They will have scored you based on your application…the best resume ever for private would still get you rated as “doesn’t meet minimum qualifications” in most candidate pools because there just isn’t enough info there for you to even be ranked. In a couple decades of being on hiring panels, I can think of maybe one candidate who made it to the interview stage for a professional-level job (GS-11+) whose application was less than 6 pages. If you make it to the interview stage, ALL applicants who are interviewed get asked the exact same list of questions….no asking you about specific concerns they may have had with your history/experience. If you think there is something that is going to worry them, it’s on you to figure out a way to work it into the response to a stock question. Some interview panels will give you an opportunity to talk about anything else you’d like them to know at the end, but not all of them do.

      Oh, and if there is ANY way you can include what you want to include in the cover letter individual position descriptions, do so. Cover letters still really aren’t a big thing in any of the 4 agencies I’ve worked at. Half the people I know on hiring panels don’t even bother to read them…a few people just skim them for typos or egregious things that would make them screen someone out (as opposed to reading them to raise someone’s ranking).

      Good luck!

  67. Wandering Thoughts...*

    Allison, if we sent you a question, how long should we wait before we post it here in the open thread? Two weeks? I submitted a question a week or two ago but, if it won’t get published for answering, I’d like to post it here and get some feedback from the comments. Thanks!

    1. Graciosa*

      Alison generally has had a fairly lengthy queue in the past (more than a couple weeks), but does work out answers in advance.

      She has said previously that you can email her if you want to know if your question is in her queue – probably safer than hoping she sees this particular post.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I know I can’t reasonably ask people to wait more than two weeks. That said, I hate to lose a good question that I have in my queue and am planning to answer (and I have some sitting there for months before I get to them), so if you’re willing to email me and check, that’s always appreciated!

      2. Salad*

        I’m not sure if you have them in the queue to be answered, or with answers already written and waiting to be posted. But some other advie columnists that I’ve got an answer from before well email me the answer early and tell me that it won’t be posted for a few weeks. It was always appreciate, especially for more time-sensitive questions

        1. Salad*

          Although on second read it sounds like you plan to answer them but haven’t written the answers yet…

  68. MTUMoose*

    Does anyone have any experience or recommendations for working with a customer located in Japan? I am struggling with the challenge of culture and communication. I have met F2F with the customer a couple of times but most of the contact is over the phone / email.
    If you have recommendation for a blog or book please respond in the comments. I am just looking for a way to up my game.

    1. Guy in Japan*

      It is hard to make general recommendations, since how you would deal with someone can vary by region, office culture, and the person’s age and attitude towards traditions. While there are many general Japanese ways of doing business and actng, they mostly come into play when you are speaking in Japanese, while Japanese people who are comfortable doing business in English tend to be at least aware of any cultural differences.

      One book that helped me was The Culture Map by Erin Meyer. It’s more of a method of looking at and dealing with cultural differences in general, so there wasn’t much Japan-specific informaton, and it was a bit superficial. That said, for some reason it really clicked with me in a way that other, more specific books didn’t. One thing it does help with is getting you thinking about your own culture, and from there how it might be different to others.

      Otherwise, more generally, I would suggest explaining a bit more than you think necessary, use precise but not flowery language, and give plenty of time for consideration before you expect an answer. The last is because it takes longer to process something in a different language, as well as needing to explain it to others if it is a company setting rather than a one on one contract. I always prefer to write e-mails rather than speak on the phone, either in English or Japanese, because it gives people more time to consider things. Also, if you are sending documents or PPT, which are often appreciated, try to make sure that they are perfect. Japanese professionals tend to be take a great deal of care with their documents, and are less forgiving of mistakes even though the content is correct.

      Those are just things I have found while working in Japan (I have been here for 13 year), but they do vary by area (Kansai is more open then Tokyo, Kyoto is more traditional), and by the size and age of the company (old, big companies are more tradition-bound than newer, smaller companies). Everyone is different, though, so as long as you stay aware of your own cultural expectations, and how they might be affecting your communication, you’re probably doing well enough.

      1. Public Health Nerd*

        Completely agree. Working with a Japanese company contract, it’s hard to parse what their corporate culture is versus Japanese culture. I would just ask your contact. Eg: “How does your company usually prefer to handle xyz?”

        Otherwise, avoid slang if your contact is newer to English, and enunciate on phone calls.

  69. Carnaxide*

    Question – my boss expects me, as her support person to do a lot of work related to events and catering where I’m used to doing documents, presentations and other work in other roles I’ve had… she has asked me to make flags for cupcakes and put together chocolate bags for gifts around the office…

    I’ll do whatever needs to be done for my boss and her team but… I’m not sure if it’s because I don’t have a lot of the other work I enjoy and thought I would be doing (I have talked to her about this and she wants her direct reports to know how to do these things, regardless of how good I am at them)… but… this feels very offensive to me… it feels very condescending…

    am I way off base?
    Thanks in advance,

    1. cupcakes*

      What about this makes you feel offended? Personally, I don’t feel that the ask is unreasonable, especially if you have more downtime. Maybe she does want all of you to be good planners or know how to work with the catering people. It sounds like this is a project that is not normally done in the office (I’m sure employees are not always getting bags of chocolate as gifts) so she could use your help in organizing it!

      1. Carnaxide*

        My understanding of the role is they were looking for a Senior Executive Assistant that had advanced skills… the lengthy and involved interview process never mentioned these kinds of tasks… so to now be in the role and the advanced level work that I’d like to do is being forced on others who can’t do it well, so that I can plan parties for the staff feels.. like my role is diminished and not what I understood it to be. I don’t have more down time, the last time the cupcake flags came up I told my manager I would log in from home and finish them there given I didn’t have enough time during the day and it’s over 100 flags… and then she said forget it, after materials had been purchased and they had been designed by me with the 7 different images she wanted on them…

        for me I have real work to do so to spend time trying to fit in these tasks, feels ridiculous…

        I guess I have been lucky that other managers recognized my talents and didn’t assume ‘assistant’ meant ‘all the tasks I don’t want to do’ which is what it seems to be here…

    2. Rey*

      I wouldn’t feel like this was condescending or offensive. I have been in two different secretary positions that varied in how much time I spent on these two areas (event-related versus docs and presentations). To me, personal errands for the boss are different, but as long as the task is work-related, I think it is par for the course. Of course, it might not be your cup of tea so you might not be happy long-term in this job with these responsibilities, but I wouldn’t automatically assume that this is a bad expectation from your boss.

    3. AnotherJill*

      This seems pretty typical for jobs defined as support. It sounds like you need to explore other positions that are more in keeping with what you like to do.

    4. Carnaxide*

      Thanks everyone for the feedback, the job is a bad fit for me all around and I was curious about this one aspect which is new to me. I’ll be sure to ask if this is part of expectations when considering new roles!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        It does sound like a mismatch, especially at the senior executive asst level. I’d say those kinds of tasks would be expected at the lower level assistant level, or maybe if it were more rare it wouldn’t be an issue for you. But that coupled with the fact that the advanced work you thought you’d be doing (and where your experience/skills doing that got you hired) is going elsewhere, you’d probably be better off in a position where it’s the domain of the SEA.

        Or put another way, it’s totally fine that your boss wants her direct reports to know how to do the advanced work you’ve done before, but then the boss doesn’t really need (and isn’t making great use of) someone with your skillset as an assistant, especially if whatever the assistant is doing can be handled by someone with less experience.

        1. Carnaxide*

          I don’t know if you’ll see this but thank you for your feedback here, this is exactly what the issue is for me. From the posting to the interview process (which was lengthy and involved testing on using different computer programs) I understood the role to be one thing and I have now been here for over two years and I see that it’s not at all what I expected and understood. And I’m disappointed that speaking up about the discrepancy seems to be falling on deaf ears. Everyone is happy with my work, I get great ratings on my evaluations but I’m frustrated that with 20 years experience I feel like I’m going backwards in this role.

    5. jm*

      I’ve been an exec assistant for 6+ years. This definitely falls under “other duties as assigned by supervisor.” My boss may give me interesting “stretch” assignments one week (like writing a script for an instructional video to be distributed statewide), and the next week she may ask me to serve cake and punch at a reception. It’s a toss-up, just depending on what she needs. I like the variety of assignments, though.

  70. veggiewolf*

    My son (and only child) just started a new job with my company on Monday. We’re in adjacent departments, which means that we don’t work together directly but our departments interface on a regular basis. He may occasionally have to attend training that is led by me, or complete training in our LMS (learning management system) that I’ve created.

    Does anyone have any tips for maintaining professional boundaries while we’re at work? I’m happy to point him in the right direction to get questions answered, or navigate an SOP, but I want to make sure I don’t step over the line into mothering him at work.

    1. Ignatius Reilly*

      I worked for a long time alongside my mother, and I think what you say here is exactly appropriate! Basically treat him like you would treat any other junior employee (obviously with some added warmth, etc. just because he IS your family!) — there’s a natural amount of mentorship/training that might go along with that, but you wouldn’t otherwise nurture another employee at work the same way you would your child in a mothering context.

    2. BRR*

      Having worked with a parent/child team you’re on the right track. One thing that helped was the child (who was on my team) didn’t call their mom, “mom.” Two things that always bothered me were: The parent would frequently come over to talk to their child. A couple times a day. Their roles would never interact this much if they weren’t related. I think this actually hurt the child in learning professional norms (it was their first job). And two, it was sometimes difficult to talk about certain things that involved the parent when their child was in the room.

      So it kind of all falls under, treat him like any other employee.

    3. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

      I worked with my mom for a few years when I was in my mid-20s (my first adult office job after a couple years of teaching). Our paths crossed sometimes and both her small department and my small department reported to the same EVP, but we did not directly work together. I didn’t call her “Mom,” at work, we kept personal discussions to lunch or before/after business hours (i.e., no stopping by my desk to ask if I could come over for dinner when my brother was in town); she basically treated me like any other junior employee and I treated her with pretty much the same professional distance as I did other department managers. We also didn’t speak for each other- people used to sometimes ask her for updates if I was out sick (or vice versa) and we had firm policy not to get into each others’ business; we couldn’t always answer those questions even if we wanted to, since we don’t live together. The lone exception was when I had my baby; I’d called her before we left for the hospital, so she stopped into the boss’ office to let him know and she provided the details to anyone who wanted to know once my daughter was actually born.

  71. joriley*

    Wanted to throw this out to the AAM community. I’m an event coordinator and my grandboss (who started in January) has a habit of sending emails where he says “I’m connecting you with Jo, our events guru, to work on the logistics.”
    For some reason “events guru” grates on my nerves. Like… just say events coordinator? Or “Jo, who handles all of our events”? (If they desperately want to check my actual job title, it’s in my signature block!) Saying guru feels a little bit like saying “She’s great but I don’t really understand how she does it, there’s probably some sort of spiritual mumbo-jumbo involved or something” which he probably intends as a compliment. But I’d much prefer to be known as someone who works hard to be good at my job! (Also, it feels vaguely appropriative, but I know this kind of use is increasingly common.)
    It’s not a big enough issue for me to bring it up with him, especially since he’s far from the only person out there who uses this language (and he does it with others too), but I just wanted to vent about it. Anyone else share this pet peeve?

    1. BeeBeeAte*

      I used to have a boss who’d introduce me as “BeeBeeAte, who manages me” and then everyone would laugh. I know it was just a joke but it would drive me INSANE.

    2. Emi.*

      This sounds to me like something that’s crept over from “cool” tech startups advertising for “database gurus” and “app ninjas” and things like that.

    3. Ignatius Reilly*

      I completely see what you’re saying, for all the reasons you mentioned — the spiritual context, possible appropriation issues, the fact that it reads a little condescendingly, etc. In general, I have a distaste for calling things by names other than what they are — for example, I’m a writer, but would never call my book my “baby” because it . . . isn’t? Solidarity!

    5. AnotherJill*

      The use of the word guru as a synonym for expert is extremely common in the tech world, and is becoming more common in general.

      Honestly, I don’t see anything objectionable about it. He’s referring to you as the resident expert, and I suspect that almost no one would think anything of it.

    6. Crylo Ren*

      I think you’re overthinking it a little. He’s simply referring to you as the expert. Maybe if he’s shown other behavior toward you or others that shows he doesn’t take you seriously – but I’m not seeing anything in your post that seems really objectionable.

    7. jm*

      He probably is trying to compliment your skills, and let the person know you are an expert, super capable, and he/she will be in good hands with you.
      Or, guru is quicker to type than coordinator.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      My pet peeve was someone on my research team who called me “boss.” No, I’m not a manager nor your direct supervisor, just the project lead. I’m sure he meant it in a good way but it grated like “guru” or any other jokey title that is specifically not meant to be gender coded or pejorative (those are a whole different thing). Also not something I would do anything about, just inwardly cringe a tiny bit.

  72. Hiring? Do your recruiters send along cover letters?*

    I’m hiring, for the first time, at my company. It’s a large company, and internal recruiters handle initial contact and send along resumes to us for next steps. But they don’t include the cover letters. I replied to my first batch of resumes with a request for cover letters and haven’t heard back from them. Those who have done hiring in this type of situation–is this normal? Did I commit some faux pas by asking for cover letters? One candidate is internal and we’ve spoken about the position, but the other two are external and their resumes don’t quite fit the position, so I’d really like to hear what they had to say in a cover letter, if they submitted one, especially since they may have put a lot of time into them and it sucks that corporate procedure means the hiring managers never see them.

    I also wonder if my boss saw my cover lever when I applied for a management role last year. Will need to ask him about that.

    1. BRR*

      My favorite answer, it depends. There are managers who only want to see resumes for a first pass over, sometimes this can be office culture and not just a specific manager or two. You did not commit a faux pas.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I don’t think you’ve committed a faux pas, but it can be an extra step for the recruiter to obtain them from an applicant. I hope you were up front with the recruiter and made the request for cover letters when you first placed the request for applicants and their resumes.

      I think it is very reasonable to want to see an example of an applicant’s writing skills and a cover letter can demonstrate certain basic writing and spelling skills. If I were a recruiter I would certainly have forwarded any cover letters that I had received, with the caveat that they might be directed to the recruiter, instead of to you.

  73. DrTheLiz*

    Any advice on German Lebensläufe (CVs/resumes) and cover letters? I’ve just finished a PhD and while I’m comfortable enough in my CV skills in general (achievements not tasks, etc etc) I’m less confident of the German norms. Some websites are suggesting that I’ll need maiden names, marital status and professional headshot, among other things. I don’t want to include those! I made the transition to my married name right at the start of my career, so all my publications are under the one name, and I don’t want to include any “discriminable” info! I’m applying for both academic and non-academic jobs, and any and all help would be appreciated.

    1. Cambridge Comma*

      It will stand out too much if you don’t have the picture, unfortunately. The other information you could try leaving out and see how you get on. If you’re a woman in your 30s they’ll discriminate against you for potentially having babies whether you are married or not (in my experience).

      1. It's Pronounced Bruce*

        Marital status is a thing? Where does it go on your CV?

        Out of curiosity, are people more likely to dismiss you as a 30something woman if you’re married (“she’s gonna go have babies”) or unmarried (“she’s gonna go get married and be out of office and then maybe quit or have babies”)?

    2. Schmitt*

      In my experience (and admittedly I’m in tech) companies thinks it’s charming that my resume is American-style.

    3. Whatsinaname*

      You’ll definitely need the headshot. Get it professionally done if you can afford it. I was involved in hiring processes while working in Germany and a missing or bad photo can definitely be an elimination factor. At minimum, it might land you on the B list.

  74. BRR*

    We’re in the midst of budget planning for next year and I’m trying to fight for my slice of the pie. I started in this role a couple of years ago and basically from my first day my role was much bigger than what was described and it has only grown from there. I really need a direct report to help with my workload but my manager doesn’t seem to understand or support it (she has to be the one to fight for the additional head count due to our roles in the organization).

    I’ve laid out how the amount of things I’m responsible for has grown, what I can’t currently work on due to my workload, and provided supporting information for the number of employees that usually handle this amount of work. My manager isn’t really familiar with my line of work and I think she thinks it’s really not a huge difference. From what I know, we MIGHT (very up in the air) get a new person or two which will increase my workload (I brought that up as well) but would need to strongly fight for any additional staffing. My manager has loosely mentioned every role we theoretically need and it seems like I’m incorrectly at the bottom of that list with another team being at the top.

    The thing is, this other team is pretty bad at their jobs. My manager and I have discussed how their mistakes are impacting my work and she doesn’t seem to be holding them accountable (I know she might be and I could not know about it but my manager doesn’t like being the bad “guy” so I’m not counting on that). At my manager’s request, I found industry studies that place them in the middle of the bell curve for the amount of work per employee. I strongly think the reason they’re so “busy” is because they aren’t good at their jobs.

    How do I argue my case to my manager when she seems to not care about my workload and really my field? I know I can’t really say that I should get the additional head count and not them because they’re under performing but I thought it would help to provide that context. It feels like I’m being punished for being decent at my job.

  75. Left in the Lurch*

    Am I being ghosted by this company? I had an interview last week that went really well–they invited me to return the next day and take an assessment (they implied that it was a technicality) and then I met with the President who said he thought I was a good match and would have an answer for me by Monday. I sent the President an email thanking him for his time, to which he didn’t reply. On Monday, when I hadn’t heard back, I emailed my original interviewer thanking her for her time and telling her I’d taken the assessments and was looking forward to next steps. No reply. Here we are, Friday, and no one ever called or replied to my emails. I’m assuming someone else was given the job at this point, right? Is it normal not to inform a candidate that they didn’t get the job?

    2. WellRed*

      Yes, it’s normal not to inform the candidate but I wouldn’t assume at this point you’ve been ghosted. This time of year (where I am) lots of folks are in and out and on vacation or picking up the slack between end of summer camp start of school, or school is starting or jr is headed off to college.

  76. Ayla K*

    I’m non-exempt and in CA. I recently started going back to therapy, and my appointments are every other week during my lunch break. This involves me taking a slightly longer lunch break (closer to 75 min instead of my usual 60) but I usually come in earlier and/or leave later to make up hours. My manager is remote, but approves my timecards every week.

    I want to let her know what’s going on so she doesn’t think I’m interviewing or something (I really love my job) but I’m not sure the best way to proactively address it. Just call her up and say “I have a new standing medical appointment every other week during lunch, but I’m going to make up my hours in the morning or afternoon, so I won’t use any PTO or sick time”? Is there a more eloquent way of putting it?

    1. SarahTheEntwife*

      So long as that sort of small-scale time shifting is normal at your job, that sounds good to me!

    3. Nacho*

      It depends on your job and your office culture. I’m non-exempt with a strict schedule, so I could never do anything like that, but if other people take these kinds of minor shifts, then go ahead.

    4. Bea*

      Telling her is much better than her noticing and drawing conclusions!

      15 minute shift like that is often not a big deal unless you’re doing customer service or front desk kind of coverage! Even then, everywhere I’ve been never cared.

  77. Bones*

    Does anyone here have experience with FMLA leave and what it entails? I’m specifically worried that I don’t have a doctor I’ve worked with enough (living in a different state where I work have made that aspect complicated/with many moving pieces) to work on the paperwork with. I’m not even sure if it’s something I have the right to pursue. Would appreciate anyone’s input, thanks.

    1. SoCalHR*

      Its a little challenging to give any input without some additional details. Are you looking to take time completely away from the office? Need intermittent leave for appointments of some kind? Unsure that your condition will ‘qualify’?
      Also, have you been with your company for at least a year and is it over 50 employees?

      1. Bones*

        I had a miscarriage about a year ago, and have had significant issues with bleeding, fatigue, and depression since. I’ve already exhausted my sick and vacation time and can’t take any more or else I will lose my job. I want the FMLA to recover psychologically in addition to frankly looking for another job with higher pay and more flexibility (something I essentially need if my health is going to continue to be an issue. I work in a different state than where I live (live in Greenwich CT, work in NYC) and work from 9:30-6:00, about to become 7:30-4:00. I’ve been having extensive trouble being able to schedule interviews ONLY when I’m not at work (understandably so, those hours are tough). Hope that helps….

        1. SoCalHR*

          I would leave out any discussions about interviewing when talking to your doctor about FMLA. But maybe you can get intermittent leave to attend some form of counseling (not diagnosing you, but it sounds like it maybe could help) and then try to arrange interviews around those times? I would find your counselor in whatever area you think you’ll be interviewing (whether that is NY or near your home in CT). Leaves are very much doctor-driven so they will need to outline what is needed, but that being said, often doctors let patients dictate that kind of thing (unfortunately for me, when dealing with work comp stuff).

          It seems a little shady to me if you request intermittent time off for physical/mental issues and then use that time *solely* to job search, but I think there is a way to semi-legitimately sneak in some job searching time.

          1. Bones*

            Oh yeah, I definitely know not to mention that. On that note, however, I am worried about how my employers will react if I find a job during that time. Will they doubt the extent of my illness? Am I potentially burning a bridge or messing up a reference?

            1. Bones*

              I think another detail that’s important to mention is that the company I work for absolutely sucks, and has already fired one employee for taking too much working time off for follow up appointments for HER miscarriage.

            2. Bea*

              Worse case they are a burnt bridge but you’ll already have a new job so that won’t matter much. They’re a bad company and probably won’t speak highly of you right now given all the info you’ve shared. They’re jerkwads and getting out of there will help your overall health.

            3. WellRed*

              At that point, I wouldn’t worry about it. Life happens, whether they are a good company or not, it’s not out of the realm of possibility for you to get another job.

    2. Leslie*

      I had to use FMLA earlier this year when my dad was sick. I had the papers signed by a doctor that wasn’t his primary doctor but someone in that same department.
      I’m sure any doctor you’ve spoken with or has helped you in any way can fill it out. I’m trying to remember what the paperwork entails, and since I had to use FMLA because I was taking care of another person I just basically had to write why that person needed me. It wasn’t too complicated and I got approved quickly so I’m sure if you feel as if you need to use it then you’ll be approved.

    3. she was a fast machine*

      I’ve taken FMLA before. Based on what you said downthread I think you have the qualifications for FMLA leave, and really, if you have a doctor at all that’s familiar with your condition they can provide the necessary information. In fact, a lot of the information you can fill out and as long as the doctor agrees with what you’ve said and can sign for you, you should be good.

      Just need to be sure you have been with the company for 12 months and they have enough employees to be covered by FMLA laws.

    4. Bea*

      Don’t stress about not having a doc you’re close with. ANY doctor who’s treated you or is in the same clinic should be able to help. They need your medical records, not to be your GP of 23 years.

      My mom’s paperwork came from an oncologist’s office working with my dad during his treatments.

      You need to have 12 months of work at 1250 hrs. Average is 24hrs a week in that case. And they have to have 50 employees or more. 50 don’t have to work in your office but 50 total for the company. So if you have 25 offices with 2 people, they still need to cover you.

    5. Brownie*

      Based on what you’ve said in this thread, go for it. I had to do FMLA for a clotting disorder and subsequent fatigue/utter exhaustion from blood loss and having the option to stay in bed each day if I needed to removed so much stress from my life and actually let me heal far more than if I’d kept dragging myself to work. It’s not hard at all to get (though do make sure you keep copies of the signed paperwork for yourself, preferably the originals if at all possible) and the paperwork takes about 5 minutes for any doctor with access to your medical records to fill out. My doc even had a folder of pre-printed FMLA paperwork in her office because it’s such a common thing to request. And because the paperwork allowed for intermittent leave I could take one day here, another there, and still work the rest of the time which kept some money flowing in while I healed.

  78. Ignatius Reilly*

    I just had my annual review, and it went great! I got a lot of compliments on my work product, work ethic, and attitude, and they gave me triple the raise I’d been hoping for and told me they’d like to pay me more, but to do that they’d need to rethink my role a bit. They want me to consider getting certified in order to move into a higher title, and/or take on more managerial tasks.

    I was so thrown, though, in the moment that my memories of my response are basically like, “Uh yeah of course that all sounds great lololol just uh what does that entail because hahahaha I don’t know.” I’m sure I was more articulate than that (hopefully), but in my head that’s how I remember responding.

    Imposter syndrome is seriously a bitch! I feel like AAM would tell me to follow up now that I’ve had more time to reflect and start actionable processes to take on those higher-level tasks, right?

    1. Gaia*

      That is really great! It can be tough to respond well in the moment to either really great situations or really no-great situations. I’m sure you came across better than you think, but I definitely recommend following up either way. It’ll show real interest and hopefully lead to next steps!

      1. Ignatius Reilly*

        Thanks! I was so excited about all the good stuff but then started seriously spinning out, worried that I hadn’t handled it correctly. But I will definitely follow up!

  79. MassholeMarketer*

    I have my final interview at 1pm today for a position I’m really excited about. It’s between me and one other person.

    I’ve gotten to the final round about 6 times over the past 6 months and nothing every pans out… wish me luck!

  80. SendMeGoodVibesPls*

    Hi All – I found out this week that I’m being laid off…UGH!
    I may end up moving toward independent consulting which makes me really nervous, but it would help manage any gap in my resume from the lay off (I have a large gap from ~3 yrs ago). I can survive financially for a little while, but am a bit bummed because I was just getting my savings back up to a comfortable level.

    Upside? more time for AAM ;-)

    1. Gaia*

      I’m sorry. I’m also being laid off (see immediately below!) I’m right there with you. I’ve got some savings so I’ll be okay, but anything more than several months out of work and 1. I will have no savings and 2. probably will have lost my mind from boredom.

      I work 65+ hours a week. What do people *do* when they don’t work?

      1. SendMeGoodVibesPls*

        Ugh – I feel ya! The last time I was unemployed I spent a lot of time at the gym and then ended up playing guitar at an assisted living home once a week – I definitely recommend finding some volunteer thing to do in the middle of the day. Although I am not a work 65 hrs+ type of person, so your transition to being off may be a bit harder. Best of luck to you!

    2. Peaceful easy feeling*

      Last May my husband was laid off. His network helped me get a short contract/consulting gig until he could find a permanent job, which he did.

      Because I moved with him (how it works in this marriage..lol) I had to find something new as well. I secured a contract job, working from home with a non-profit about an hour away (DFW metroplex). I really love working from home. It’s not new for me, but it’s took a bit to re-organize my thinking.

      Contracting/consulting is nice with flexibility and such but you have to continue generating your work, through networking. I haven’t found that long-term contracts exist unless you get into government.

      Now that you’re ‘free to move about’ have you considered joining a cowork space so you can meet with other freelancers/contractors? They can help you put something together, too.

      Good luck

  81. Gaia*

    Well…here we are, a week away from unemployment. I officially sent out my announcement email (after a way too long debate with HR about why I would not agree to them emailing that I had “decided to look elsewhere” since I absolutely did *not* decide that unless you consider it a decision between that and permanent unemployment). The response has been both heart warming and heart breakingly frustrating. Everyone expressed shock, dismay, and a wish that they had known sooner so they could have created a role. Unfortunately, I wasn’t allowed to tell anyone sooner and I knew this was going to happen.

    The most frustrating part is the lack of acknowledgement that while we didn’t have a contract, we did have an agreement (in writing, no less!) that this wouldn’t happen. The company has never done something like this before and everyone seems to acknowledge that but is paralyzed by inaction (again – not something I’ve seen in the past ever). There is the hope of another role a mere 2 months away, but that would mean losing significant benefits and coming back as if I am brand new. (They are currently exploring an option of paid leave in lieu of severance but I’m not sure what that looks like or how good of an idea that is).

    Honestly, I’m not even mad. I’m really rather hurt. I know we could do better. I’m also really worried about an upcoming job search. My experience in this role is rather unique and so I don’t have the background most companies will be looking for in similar positions. And it is nearly guaranteed I will have to relocate and take a significant decrease in pay based on what I’ve seen out there.

    But hey, I was told by the head of HR for my area that I should be grateful because just think of the experience I gained………..

    1. Ignatius Reilly*

      That really sucks — sorry you’re dealing with that! Here’s hoping you end up someplace much better soon!

    2. AeroEngineer*

      Ooh, that sucks. Sorry that you have to deal with that. I hope things work out for you.

      And solidarity with getting dubious comments from HR trying I guess to make things better…. (or maybe not)

  82. Junior Dev*

    So my very first annual review is coming up in about a week and a half! This is my first non-retail/food service job, so I’m really struggling to figure out whether/how I should ask for a raise.
    I think I’m decent at my job- not a rock star, but I get my work done and do it well, and I’ve taken on extra responsibilities whenever asked. I haven’t gotten much in the way of criticism, and any time I have been corrected on something I’ve immediately remedied the issue and gratefully accepted the criticism. My knowledge base has improved drastically, both in the general duties of my job and in my knowledge of our clients. I checked the average salary for someone at my level in my city, and found out I’m being paid significantly below the average- like, $10K below.
    The company I work for is super tiny (less than 15 employees, and it’s an open office), so I’m not really comfortable asking my coworkers about what the process here for getting a raise is like.
    I want to ask for a raise- I’m not sure how to bring it up properly, though. I have no idea if my boss will bring it up at all, but I’d rather be prepared to do so if he doesn’t. But I also don’t want to look like I’m somehow overvaluing my own contributions, or sound out of touch- because while I’m being paid significantly below market rate, I also have less formal training/academic knowledge than many folks at my level (I’m a programmer, and I went to a coding bootcamp/did self-teaching as opposed to getting a computer science degree from a university- but I’ve learned tons on the fly and did more self-teaching so that I was able to perform well at my job). I’m also a woman, and I know that apparently many women tend to be hesitant to ask for a raise.
    I’m thinking that if my boss doesn’t bring up the raise, and doesn’t have any major criticisms of my work, I may start off by asking whether a salary increase is possible, and then if yes ask what amount would be possible, and go from there? I’ll probably determine whether to negotiate based on how well my review goes and whatever is presented as an option for the increase.
    I guess my question is…would it be completely out of touch and absurd for a well-performing but non-rock-star employee to ask to be brought up closer to market rate? I’d honestly love a $5K increase, even though that’ll still be below market rate- it’s about a 10% increase, but considering how far below average I’m getting paid, I don’t think it should be a huge imposition.

    2. Ignatius Reilly*

      I don’t think it’s off-the-wall at all, and a lot of it is because you’re at below market rate. If you knew you were already very well-compensated, maybe even over-compensated, I could see where it could look out of touch.

      I would practice being as direct as possible about it. “I value your feedback and look forward to continuing to improve and grow at the company. I’d also like to bring my compensation closer to market rate, which my research suggests to be in the [$x] range. Is that something we could discuss?” or something similar. Of course, it’s rare for companies to give massive raises, percentage-wise, but you can at least open the door and hopefully get something!

      1. Junior Dev*

        Thank you!! I think I was getting most stuck on phrasing- and that suggested script is super helpful. I like that it suggests an increase that’s a range but not a set specific number, which hopefully will get me at least something.

        I’m pretty anxious generally, and have a solid dose of imposter syndrome-coupled with the fact that this is my first professional job, I’m terrified of making any type of mistake that could even remotely jeopardize my position/potential references in future. Scripts are extremely helpful.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I think you should ask. You already know what you want (a $5K increase), and you already know when to ask (your annual review).

      Here’s a list of steps to craft your request cribbed shamelessly from a negotiation workshop I went to last year (google Femgineer – great advice there for women in tech, and excellent presenters if you have an opportunity to take a workshop from them).
      – Provide context: this is things you have done to benefit your company/clients
      – Provide credibility: this is why these things are a big deal – direct revenue impact, kudos from others, the more specific, the better
      – Provide a specific ask: this is where you mention your $5K increase
      – Provide a benefit to the company: in this case, bringing salaries closer to in line with market rates

      If you do get told “no raise”, or “just a tiny raise”, your next step is to ask what it would take to get a bigger raise.

      Good luck!

    4. BRR*

      Alison has a few articles on here that I found incredibly helpful when asking for a raise and would recommend. Definitely be prepared to bring it up. It’s pretty common for even great managers to not bring up raises. Also ask for a specific number. Have your research ready so you can present it. If you have references to salaries at smaller companies, that would really help your cause. I work for a smaller organization (~75), and I know it helped my case to compare my salary against what similar sized organizations paid vs. what a large organization paid.

    5. the other Junior Dev*

      Hi, I’m wondering if you can pick a different name to post under since I’ve been using Junior Dev” for a while now and I think people are getting confused.

  83. Thornus67*

    I have a question about following up on a job application. It’s for an in-house staff attorney position if that matters at all. Right now, the legal department is one person who is an Associate General Counsel (there is no GC currently). There was an application deadline for the end of July, and I followed up about two weeks later with just a general “we’ll be in touch.” While looking around yesterday (because anxiousness over being under/unemployed does that), I noticed that the organization announced, just a few days after the application deadline but before I followed up, that the one person int he department is leaving in early September and that they’ve hired a General Counsel (not the position I applied for) to take over the department from her on that same date.

    Now, I was going to follow up, again, late next week or early the week after that. However, that’s only a week before the legal leadership changes. I am now sitting here wondering if the person leaving was really doing the hiring for the department or merely collecting applications. I also want to follow up again as it’s a very niche area of law that I have several years of experience in, a few more than the minimum they wanted. Do I follow up again with the person leaving? Do I wait and follow up with the new general counsel on the day she starts? Do I reach out to the new GC before she starts just to get my name on the radar?

    I hate this whole be-persistent-but-not-overly-aggressive line-walking.

    1. Graciosa*

      I wouldn’t do anything else at this point (also an in house attorney).

      I can see a couple scenarios after the new GC starts. Either she’ll use the existing application files (which you’re already in) from the July posting, or she will have her own ideas about what she’s looking for and will post a new opening after she feels sufficiently settled in the new role (probably not the first day) and you can apply at that time.

      The old AGC is not the right contact, and reaching out to the new GC too early in her tenure will definitely seem pushy. She’ll have a lot to do in the early days on the job without figuring out how to respond to previous job applicants from before her time.

      Sorry that’s probably not what you want to hear –

      1. BRR*

        I agree with Graciosa for all of those reasons plus I wouldn’t follow up if there wasn’t turn over. You applied and you already followed up on your application. I don’t think people should follow up on just an application (unless that’s common for in-house attorneys).

        I don’t think necessarily think persistence helps, at least not in this way. The majority of hiring managers aren’t going to hire you because you reached out more than other candidates and you risk annoying them.

  84. Leslie*

    I got fired on Monday. I actually posted about this job on here a few weeks ago about how toxic the environment was and how rude my trainer/manager were to me. I started this job at the beginning of July and it was a nightmare for those 8 weeks. I was a relief to be fired honestly, however I’ve never been fired before and even though that job was awful to me and my mental health, I can’t help but feel like a failure. I was at my previous job for 3 years and had nearly perfect performance reviews. To go from that to being snapped at and blamed for things daily and then being let go not even 2 months later has diminished my self-confidence.

    I’m now deep into job searching and every potential job I come across I find myself doubting if I can do it. I’m worried about this happening again, although now I know exactly what questions I will ask during the interview to get a better feel of things.

    Any advice would be appreciated. Also, I won’t be putting this job up on my resume since it was so short but what can i say to employers if they ask about a gap in employment?

    1. AnitaJ*

      Hey Leslie–as someone who’s been fired before, I commiserate and want to let you know that you’re going to be OK. If I were you, I’d frame it not as a failure but as a success. You didn’t fit in to a toxic culture. That’s great! Who wants to be a rude jerk? You have 3 solid years of good performance and great reviews. That doesn’t go away because of 8 weeks of some mean people beating you down. You’ll get through this!

      1. Leslie*

        Thank you for this. I checked Glassdoor and it turns out someone with my exact title wrote a review last year and everything she said was what I experienced. So at least it’s not just me. I’m just trying to wrap my head around how a company could operate like that.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Honestly? I would take a week or two off of job searching if that’s at all possible and let yourself recover from the toxic environment. When I was fired from my ToxicJob, I couldn’t even think about looking for a new job for a month (though I’d been in that position for 1.5 years at that point).

      Some other suggestions – reach out to people who you will ask to serve as references. Talking to them should provide a boost.

      Can you register for some classes (free or cheap) and use those as an explanation for your work gap?

      1. Leslie*

        I know I should take a break, but I’m afraid to not work for a long period of time. Also, my home life is pretty chaotic. I live with my parents and my mom babysits 4 grandkids during the week that are really young and so I have more stress here than I would at job, which is why I want to find a new one quickly lol.

        In the meantime though I’m teaching myself how to use GIMP and other photo-editing tools just to sharpen my skills.

        1. E*

          If you need space away from the daytime chaos at your parents’ home, could you spend time at the local library or a volunteer activity?

  85. Four lights*

    Awkward/inappropriate exchange of the week:

    My brother was in town last weekend and we all went to Niagara Falls. My husband was buying his lunch at the office cafeteria like he does every day and told the check out woman that he went to Niagara falls with his brother in law. Then she said that she finds the strip clubs on the Canadian side to be better than the ones on the American side. Umm….

    1. Nanc*

      In a sick twisted way I kinda wanna know details. Why are they better? Are the strippers more polite? Better music? Is it because of the exchange rate? Free valet parking? Or wait, does she moonlight and it works out better financially for her?

      Your poor husband! There’s just nothing to say or do after such an exchange.

    2. CheeryO*

      That’s an awkward thing to say to someone at work, but I have to laugh because I’m a local and have heard the same thing many, many times. I think it’s because the Canadian side is generally more touristy (and less economically depressed).

        1. Canadian Jessie*

          Yes – and not tied to alcohol, like it seems to be in the US. Plus, our beer is better :D

  86. Is this thing on?*

    I have a question about tone in a conversation that I should have had yesterday with one of my employees. Essentially, he directed another of my employees to do something (cover the front desk) that is in neither of their job descriptions. She was bothered by it–not by the request, but they way it was made. He basically barged into her work area and said “[other employee] isn’t here. Go cover the front desk.” I was torn on whether he was taking initiative to solve a problem or if he was overstepping, but when I heard that it wasn’t a question — “could you cover the front desk?” — but a demand, I decided I need to talk to him. How do I approach this? “Hey, yesterday you told [employee] to cover the front desk. I appreciate that you saw a problem and tried to solve it, but next time you need to ask instead of demand”? Or “Yesterday you gave [employee] a direction that isn’t your place to give. I knew [other employee] was going to be out and I had a solution. Please don’t give directions to other people in the office who you don’t manage.” Or something else? Thanks!!

    1. Temperance*

      Oops – I replied to you, but had a nesting error and my comment is now its own thing.

      He’s NOT “taking initiative” to solve a problem unless he’s sitting down himself to greet visitors and do reception work. Instead, he found a woman to do it, which is , frankly, extremely shitty and rude, and he handled it in a super shitty and rude manner. He’s not her boss, he’s not her superior, and he is just as capable of taking phone calls as she is.

      It’s not in her job description, she shouldn’t be covering for the receptionist unless everyone else, male and female, gets tapped to it.

      1. Twenty Points for the Copier*

        agree completely. it sounds like he and the woman he demanded cover the front desk are on the same level and he shouldn’t be assigning tasks to her. initiative is getting the job done (if he did it himself), this is both rude and professionally inappropriate.

        this should absolutely be addressed, but your tone should not be apologetic or couched in a compliment – obviously that doesn’t mean yell and scream at him. but he messed up and he needs to be told clearly and frankly that what he did was out of bounds for his role.

    2. LCL*

      There is a time to be nice and use the compliment sandwich if you are into that. This is not that time. The kind of jerkiness he displayed calls for direct talk. Such as,
      ‘Yesterday you asked WE to cover the front desk. That is not your decision to make, that is mine. Don’t do that again. In the future, if we need front desk coverage, you will (explain whatever the policy is.) This may be time to speak bluntly to all of the employees in this group about what the policy is.

      Your proposed language to him is way too nice. You can be blunt without turning this into the gender wars. Yeah, male entitlement and all that, but this doesn’t need a consciousness raising approach. This needs the knock it off approach.

    3. Robin Sparkles*

      Agree with Temperance completely – this is not the time to be nice or approach him with appreciation. If he wanted to take initiative he should have covered the front desk himself. Not OK. I would also coach your other employee what to say if that happens again so she has the tools and your blessing to do so.

    4. Is this thing on?*

      Oh my. He is adamant that he *asked* her and that furthermore, if she’s going to run to me if she’s unhappy about “such a minor thing” when she “just walked in the door” (she’s fairly new), he’s just not going to talk to her anymore. But he IS going to talk to her now because that “isn’t good, it just isn’t good.”

      1. Twenty Points for the Copier*

        Even asking her is an issue, though. It’s not his responsibility or within his authority unless you had told him to.

        1. Is this thing on?*

          I’m less concerned with asking. We’re a really small office in which everyone does a completely different job from everyone else. Sometimes it’s totally appropriate to say “hey, I need an extra set of hands, can you help me?” or “I’m in the middle of something and we need someone to cover the desk, are you available?” It’s the *telling* that bothers me, and response to my raising the issue with him bothers me even more!

          1. Observer*

            His response is a MAJOR issue. Also, even if he technically “asked” it’s clear that it wasn’t done in the way that you outline, but rather in the way one “asks” a service person or subordinate to do something.

      2. LCL*

        You suspected he was trouble in your first post. He has proven it. This guy will be a thorn in your side until one of you leaves, so be mentally prepared. He will need very clear direction. You will sometimes have to fall back on ‘I made the decision and that’s it.’ It might be helpful to you to find out, if anyone knows and is telling, his history with the company.

        1. Is this thing on?*

          He’s been here for just about 14 years in the same position the whole time. He’ll likely be here until he retires unless he does something egregious, which he’s not likely to do, or we have an office reorganization, which I’m hoping for (for reasons separate from this employee).

          1. BRR*

            I’m getting the impression you might be a passive manager. It doesn’t matter if he asked or told her, it sounds like it wasn’t his place to be involved with this. He also handled receiving feedback terribly. He’s not behaving professionally and part of his job is getting along with his coworkers. You can require that of him. If this is how he is all the time I bet he’s been a factor in other people leaving.

            1. Is this thing on?*

              I’m working very hard to be more assertive and direct!
              He just came by my office to talk more about this. He asked “What am I supposed to say to her” if the same situation arises? “I don’t want to say the wrong thing.” Me: “As long as you are asking, not telling, you’re fine.” We went back and forth on this a couple of times, and then he had to leave for the day. I appreciate your stating explicitly that he handled receiving feedback poorly; I was focusing on the communication aspect, but I need to note the feedback point too.
              Believe it or not, other than the position I hold, which has had a bit of back and forth in who has held the job, only one person has left in the last 14 years, and that was for health reasons.

              1. It's Pronounced Bruce*

                Whoo wow, not only was he a complete ass the first time, he came back and then argued with you more? And insisted that you’re putting him in an impossible situation by asking him not to give directives to his peers? This guy is a capital-P problem and I would highly recommend that you put down a harder line with him now before it gets worse. No part of this is acceptable behavior.

                He outright told you that he’s going to penalize her for mentioning what he did! Right to your face! Then he came back and argued with you on your (already too lenient) request! Lord.

                1. LCL*

                  …he came back and argued with her twice! after the initial conversation, if I am following the threading right.
                  OP, don’t doubt yourself on this. He is being a jerk. He may have been allowed way too much autonomy in the past. He will either calm down, or continue to argue. Whichever path he takes, you are not asking him to do anything unreasonable.

          1. Close Bracket*

            I wouldn’t call him insubordinate, either. He didn’t refuse to do something he was told to do. He was pissy and dramatic, but not insubordinate.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            Defensive is still not good.
            “There is no need to get defensive. This is how I would like everyone to handle this type of situation, step 1, step 2, step 3. Can you do that?”

            Here you are dragging his technique out into the light of day which helps to put the technique to one side taking away its impact, and telling him this is what he should do instead.

            If things get tough don’t be afraid to say things such as,
            “You have already told me this. Do you have anything new to add?”
            “We are not talking about Other Person, we are talking about how you should handle X situation.”
            “We talked about this earlier. I considered the conversation closed. Do you have anything new you want to add, if not the conversation remains closed.”

  87. What to do with a MLIS?*

    I have a lot of student loans from my six year old Masters of Library and Information Science degree and I need to pivot my career into something that pays more so I can start paying this debt off. I’m struggling to find career options. Any suggestions? What did you do with your MLS/MLIS? Thanks all!

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      MSLIS with a concentration in archives. I went right into records management in an academic setting for 10 years. Interesting, but no money. Moved to the corporate world for the cash and haven’t regretted it. Vested stock options paid off the remaining $45,000 on my student loans (there was another graduate degree before I went into the comparatively lucrative world of library science). My work now involves a lot of IT – not my background, but I’ve been able to ease into it just enough to know what’s going on and who to bring it when it gets complicated. Not where I saw myself with the degree but happy how it has worked out. (I do realize I’ve been lucky.)

    3. cwethan*

      MLIS with a specialization in Archives — went into cultural heritage archives immediately. I got very, very lucky and had an internship while still in school that taught me how to process collections, and because of that found a series of full time, but temporary processing jobs. They didn’t pay well, but they did string on for years. I just this year (5+ years on from my degree) got a permanent, well-paying job, but had to move away from cultural nonprofits and into academia to do it.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Well, I work in a library with my MLIS. However, I got the sense you’re interested in non-library jobs. So, here’s a few things I’ve known folks to go into:
      – High level admin assistant. Seriously, she is hyper-organized and loves it.
      – Researcher at Foundation. Mostly does work seeing if people actually are using the grants for what they are supposed to be using them for.
      – Researcher at a Law Firm
      – Corporate Librarian (This is a library job and not for everyone, but the person I know who does it seems to enjoy.)
      – Accountant (though they got a second degree for that in Accounting)
      A few other thoughts- What skills do you have ignoring the MLIS? Are you hyper organized? Do you love to keep things on schedule (like my Admin friend)? The trick to getting a non-library job with an MLIS is that people might assume you really wish you were a librarian, so be prepared to take a temp position in the field you want to move into to demonstrate that you really don’t want to be a librarian.

      1. Library School Dropout*

        A couple of things that I’ve seen are:
        – Researcher at a Hospital (worked closely with medical librarian)
        – Information Broker
        – Chief Information Officer (in corporate settings)

  88. Abelard*

    I just found out this week that I have been selected as the member of our team to go to a conference this year. One of my co-workers went last year and I was hoping I would be the one selected to go this year. So I am excited by that, but this will be my first business trip ever. Any general tips and guidelines?

    I’ve booked the conference reservation and my hotel at the conference center on my credit card (they’re really good about quick turn around on reimbursement I know from previous experience) and my flight through our travel portal. I’ve read through the travel policy guidelines (they explicitly say we can enter our own flight miles number into the business booking system so we get the points even though the company pays directly for the flight!). I know what my per diem for food is and what other incidentals I can expense.

    I’m the type of person who likes to know everything and set up the details in advance so this is all just prep work, but what have others done on business trips to make things go smoothly? what should I avoid or be aware of?

    1. Peaceful easy feeling*

      Know the dress code for the conference – usually business casual. Get a copy of the schedule, if possible, to know if the organizers are providing other activities you’ll need to dress otherwise for. Comfy yet professional shoes are a must even if you’re sitting most of the day. Water bottle and snacks (even if they provide some at various intervals).

      Know what your boss/teams expects you to do while there and what to bring back. Sometimes we think we’re there to learn, but -yikes- you should have been networking, too. Are you to gather materials, information, contacts or simply be a ‘train the trainer’ and educate your team when you return? (Network anyways because it’s good to have options.)

      Are you to do any work while you’re gone? Have you prepped your team for your absence – everyone can take up the slack? Who’s checking your email and/or have you set your ‘out of office’ notice and let your clients/customers know about who they can talk to while you’re gone.

      Find out if you have down time and create list of things to do, near the hotel/conference arena.

      Have fun!

    2. SoCalHR*

      As far as after-hours activities: If you drink at all, know your alcohol tolerance. Its easy to get carried away when food and drinks are flowing (my experience at some conferences). Also, be aware that OTHER people may be getting carried away and be on your guard a little bit more with members of the opposite sex (more if you are female, but I’ve seen drunk old ladies get a little too handsy with guys too).

    3. Graciosa*

      I tend to plan for things to go wrong (hazard of my profession) which includes having the phone containing my boarding pass, gps, and contact information die at the wrong time. This means that I often still carry a printed boarding pass (or check my phone status and print one at check in before starting through security) just in case.

      I also have printouts with all my travel information (double sided to minimize the weight, with some items printed two pages to a side) as well as critical contact information – key contacts at the office, toll-free numbers for our travel agent, IT support, security office, and medical or insurance companies. I have contact information for the local embassy or consulate when out of the country. I also leave copies of critical information (not just itineraries, but things like credit card cancellation) with a trusted contact before I leave.

      I may bring printed directions to key locations (not always, but more likely if I have tight time frames or will need to drive from the airport to the hotel late at night). Most offices I travel to and most hotel business centers have shredders, so I discard information safely as I’m done with it so I’m avoiding unnecessary weight.

      I carry light weight USB chargers for not only the hotel, but the car if I’m going to have one. I also have very short (read light weight) USB cables for traveling. I never take more than one carry on and a personal item, so every ounce matters.

      I make sure I have lots of small bills for tipping.

      Most problems are manageable with a credit card in cities of any decent size around the globe (I once bought tampons in Chile with no issue – and no Spanish!).

      On the business side, be a good traveling companion and remember that you’re there to work. You need to accommodate other people’s desire to strategize after dinner / talk or not talk at breakfast, etc. Don’t be embarrassed to speak up about normal things (like stopping in the bathroom between the four hour plane flight and the two hour ride to the hotel!) but don’t be a prima donna. You learn a lot about people on these trips, and you want that to be a good experience.

      On the business side, I ensure I have copies of the key items I’ll need in meetings on my hard drive in an easily located – and separate! – location. I have lost connections to our systems while traveling, and found myself having to present unexpectedly. I need to have everything at hand without exposing other confidential information. Obviously, follow any rules regarding confidential or export controlled information (we have some special scrubbed laptops for certain types of travel) or ensuring information is safely backed up.

      Assume people will shoulder surf if you try to work on the plane – I don’t anymore and stick to my kindle, but it depends of course on the nature of your work. Assume that your friendly seat mate and the person in the booth behind you in the restaurant are competitors.

      Lastly, don’t allow any of the foregoing to stop you from enjoying yourself! Business travel can still be fun. ;-)

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Don’t forget to bring casual clothes for the hotel room! If I forget – or decide not to, because I packed a small suitcase so I wouldn’t have to check it- I find myself with nothing between business clothes and pajamas, which is awkward when you have 2 hours between the last session and dinner. Conferences can be tiring, so you might find yourself just wanting to chill out in your room. Also good to bring – portable charger for your mobile devices and a sweater or wrap in case the conference rooms are cold.

    5. Alternative Person*

      I like to take a comfort book, something easy and familiar, my go to is usually Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy to make sure I can relax.

      If you rely on internet for stuff, download a few things in case of a bad signal. For example, on a recent trip, I knew the wifi would be weak so I downloaded a bunch of podcasts/tv stuff in advance

      Before I travel, I change out my bedsheets so they’re fresh when I get back, set aside some cash/points for pizza (my last trip, I had accrued enough points for the pizza to be free! I ordered it on the train ride back to my flat after a miserable flight, it was magical) and make sure I buy long(er) lasting forms of the basics so I don’t have to worry about shopping immediately when I get back.

      I make sure I have business cards on hand as well as a pencil case with all the basics, and a notebook. A slim folder with pockets might also be useful if you’re likely to be dealing with documents.

      If possible, make your outfits mix and match so it’s easy to sub something in in-case of coffee on shirt (or similar). I also take a tube of travel wash, so I can do a quick hand wash of clothes in the sink in case of particularly hot, humid days.

    6. Robin Sparkles*

      Bring some workout clothes too – use of the gym or health center is covered by most companies but check with yours first. Great advice to make sure your apartment/house is clean so when you arrive, one less thing to worry about.
      I found that having interchangeable clothes is a big saver.

      Conferences are tiring for most people – you are on for far longer than you are expected to be at work. I had to be at morning sessions at 7:00a and networking at evening gatherings at 7:00p. I often worked from 8a-9p most days. Now that doesn’t mean no breaks – I sometimes skipped relevant sessions to go be a tourist or use the gym. It’s necessary to do that once or twice depending on how long you are staying.

      And seconding the talking to your boss on what they expect -what sessions they want you to attend, what networking they want you to do, and what they don’t care about at all. Most have two-three things they will want to know you did and the rest is your choice.

      Have fun!!!

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t know what kind of conference you are going to, but I am going to give you the same advice I was given years ago about conferences- You can blow off every panel, but do not blow off a single social event. The whole point is to meet people. So, go mingle!

      (If you’re at all like me, the idea of mingling basically is also my idea of hell.)

      Anyway, the other things I would say are- bring business cards and some extra clothing options. You might not need them, but you will be grateful if you do. Also remember, you’re not going to the ends of the world, you’re just going to a conference. Chances are you can find deodorant or other items if you accidentally forget them.

    8. I am who I am*

      I’ll add myself to the mix and match clothes bandwagon. I’ll wear the same sweater and pants/skirt every day, just with a different top. (I try to pack neutral items that won’t be memorable, but no one really cares about duplicating outfits; we’re all trying to travel light.)

      Except that I wouldn’t plan to wear your traveling clothes again unless it’s winter in a cold region. Between sweating on the tarmac and filthy ground transport I always feel disgusting by the time I make it to the hotel and don’t want to wear those clothes again, even for the trip home.

      Also, unless it’s a long trip, skip the workout clothes. Make do with going for a walk or body weight exercises in your room for the couple days of the trip. Running shoes especially are not worth the space in your bag for a trip less than a week.

      Also, think very carefully about bringing anything beyond clothes and toiletries. You’re unlikely to have much down time to fill. If your smartphone isn’t enough to keep you occupied, you can always hang out at the hotel bar (extroverts) or buy a book or magazine in the hotel shop (introverts) if you need to fill an hour before it’s time to go to bed (remember breakfast is at 7!) And think hard about whether you really need to bring that work laptop. Many hotel networks don’t play well with vpns, and you can check email on your smart phone, so do you really need that laptop for your 2-3 day trip?

      Have fun!

  89. AnitaJ*

    Job-hunting while IVF:

    1 – Got the job!
    2 – Gave notice!
    3 – Now I’m pregnant!

    Thanks to everyone for your advice and support. Obviously this is so new that there are no certainties and I’m not counting on anything. I’m just living a healthy life, hoping for the best, and preparing for the worst. If everything goes well I would be letting my new boss know of my pregnancy mid-to-late-October. I start my job the second week of September. So, that’s not super great timing and it’s stressing me out. But again–it’s only a possibility at this point. …but if I have to have that conversation, any advice? Planning helps my anxiety.

    1. she was a fast machine*

      I think it’s important to acknowledge the less-than-ideal timing, but really, they will make do and it will be okay, because people get unexpectedly pregnant at bad times all the time.

    2. Murphy*

      Congrats!

      I agree with what fast machine said. Acknowledge it and then just be matter of fact about it. Life happens and reasonable people understand that!

  90. Spegasi*

    Hey!
    Quick update from a couple of weeks ago when I posted about an interview at a gallery. The advice was really helpful and it went really well, to the point that they asked me when I could start. Unfortunately I was going on a two week trip the next day which I explained to them. I emailed them yesterday to let them know I was still interested but was told the position had been filled. I’m under the impression they needed someone for the job as soon as possible, especially since a lot of art events where coming up. I’m a bit sad because it would have been a dream job but I guess it wasn’t meant to be. Thanks for all the advice!

  91. dorothy zbornak*

    feeling super grateful for my awesome boss – I’m getting married next Saturday (!!) and he’s been great and flexible and making sure I don’t get any new projects, etc. Not that I wasn’t grateful before b/c he’s always been great but this week especially.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      This is nice to read after the post the other day where people were sharing stories about their bosses asking them to change their wedding dates.

      1. female peter gibbons*

        Oh my goodness. Could I please have a link or direction where to find that drama?

  92. Adult in Training*

    I’ve been freelancing for about 6 months now and I got placed through an agency. It’s my first freelancing gig ever and my contract ends in 2 months, so I called my agency just to see what’s going to happen after it ends. My case worker said it was too early to look for a next job and asked if I was considering leaving before the end of the contract. I haven’t been super happy at this job but I intend to stick it out, which I told her and led to her asking why I wasn’t happy. Overall, I described it as just a bad fit environment-wise, but she asked for specifics and I gave them. I’m now worried I can across as whiny, immature or naive.
    I worked with a supervisor for 4 months then she left. I now know there’s a lot of things she didn’t train me on so it’s been a grueling transition process, which has lead to a lot of disorganization. We work on a somewhat seasonal event so it’s madness on top of the transition. A lot of people have been less than understanding about the fact that I’m still learning things. I get a lot of passive aggressive comments about how the old person ‘always had this done in a few days, you’re not doing it the same way as she did, I guess just do the best you can’. Some of these I can’t do anything but roll my eyes but others are annoying; I was learning 3 brand new programs to me and wasn’t going to be able to just spit out good results immediately!
    My manager has been fighting for me, but she and the other management are so busy and not always reachable when they’re OOO or working from home, though they say they are. Sometimes I won’t see my manager for a full week. This also leads to the disorganization because I need to get her approval on stuff and I can’t always get in touch with her. I’ve missed a few deadlines because of this.
    I’ve also missed deadlines because my co-workers sometimes don’t get me the things I need to complete tasks. My manager says its fine but I feel like this reflects poorly on me.
    I told my case worker these things, stressing the overall bad environment. I don’t think this is a bad company, just a lot more disorganization than I feel I can thrive in. I have every intention of finishing up my contract and made it clear to her that I will take any work that comes my way. But I am very worried now that I came off as immature. Am I over thinking this? Should I call and apologize?
    tl;dr: I told my agency I don’t really like my current contract work, but I’m worried now that my reasons sound immature.

    1. I edit everything*

      Don’t call and apologize. But the next time you speak with your recruiter, be ready with some things you’re positively looking for in a new placement, and things you like about this current one (even if you have to stretch the truth a bit). “I really liked having the opportunity to learn new systems, and I hope I can expand on that knowledge in my next placement.”

  93. Miss M*

    Has anyone watched the show on Netflix Aggretsuko? It’s a cartoon, but is so wonderful and relatable to anyone who has worked at a toxic office. Highly recommend!

    1. she was a fast machine*

      I saw it mentioned here a while back and it’s been on my to-watch list for a while. She’s so cute!

      1. Nessun*

        I’m an EA and I aspire to be that secretary bird; she is awesome! The series does have some interesting things to say about office life, but it is definitely geared to Japanese work/office standards, not North American.

  94. Bea*

    When trying to get in touch with accounts receivable who is seemingly ignoring emails, nothing sinks my stomach more than a quick Google search that shows a low AF glassdoor rating. I’m used to no internet presence for small businesses but bad internet presence sends me screeching for the hills. Argh. Tgif.

  95. she was a fast machine*

    We had Ritz Carlton training last week at our staff day. It was actually pretty interesting and not as boring as some other training we’ve had, but it’s laughable that anything will ever be done. There’s such a strong culture in the leadership that us peons are responsible for everything and that they shouldn’t have to do anything besides pay us minimum wage and that we’ll magically transform customer service into the Ritz. Lord knows in a few months when it’s clear nothing is changing we’ll all get called into more meetings to try to figure out why on earth we aren’t magically producing the best customer service ever.

    /rant

    Has anyone else actually seen the Ritz-Carlton training improve anything at your job?

    1. Twenty Points for the Copier*

      I’ve seen presentations at internal conference we’ve done. But they’re giving the training to people who have a lot of autonomy and staffs under them. The one takeaway I really remember is that you need to empower your employees to go above and beyond to have a culture where customers really feel like they are getting white glove service.

      That seems… incompatible with a work environment like the one you’re describing.

  96. KMB213*

    Ugh. I know that many companies take longer than they promised to get back to you after an interview, and that it’s best to just forget about it and move on, but it’s so hard sometimes!

    I interviewed with a company two weeks ago after an external recruiter found me through LinkedIn. I was unsure how the interview went – I thought it went fairly well, but it was kind of short. So, I was happy to hear back from the recruiter last week – he let me know the company liked me and were planning on bringing me in for a second interview. He said I would hear back by Monday of this week. It is past Monday and I haven’t heard back yet.

    Like I said, I know companies often take longer than expected or promised to reach out, but, still, waiting is killing me. I just want to hear something! Would it be out of line to send one check-in e-mail or call to the recruiter?

    1. I edit everything*

      I think that’s perfectly reasonable. Friday is a long time after Monday, and a “do you have an update” email–brief, polite–is a good way to nudge someone and remind them that you exist.

      1. KMB213*

        Thanks! I don’t want it to feel like I’m bothering him, but I do want to check it – it’s a hard balance to strike (for me anyway) sometimes!

  97. Junior Dev*

    I’m feeling more and more “done” with my current job. I applied to a different job internally and I’m feeling pretty checked out. I was hired to do fairly interesting and creative work that uses my technical skills but for the last month I feel like my entire job has consisted of filling out spreadsheets. And I’m getting annoyed with my boss–she’s been pretty bad about communicating expectations in the past, I talked to her about it, and she’s doing a little better but still clearly struggling. Any advice for me? I don’t like feeling checked out in this way but there are reasons for it…

    1. she was a fast machine*

      What’s changed to put you into spreadsheet mode instead of creative work? Is it a seasonal thing or their needs have shifted, or?

    2. KMB213*

      I am checked out at my job, too. As our company has grown, the number of tasks have grown pretty exponentially. I do a wide of variety of things for the company and my least favorite tasks are the ones that would be the most difficult and most costly to have outside consultants/1099s do, so my more interesting tasks (in my opinion) have been farmed out to 1099s, while I’ve been stuck with my least favorite. There’s really nothing I can do to change it until we grow enough to hire another full time employee, who will take over the more boring things, allowing me to take on some of the more interesting ones again. I’m casually looking for something new, but I do have realistic hope that this job will get better, so I’m not searching too aggressively.

      Anyway, for me, compartmentalizing has been a huge help. As best I can, I don’t think about work outside of work. This includes my lunch break, which I’ve recently started taking again. Not thinking at work at all (well, OK, work thoughts still creep in a bit) outside of work has helped me focus while at work.

    3. PSB*

      My only advice is to keep pursuing the other opportunity and if it doesn’t work out, keep looking. Or at least keep your eyes and ears open. When I’ve hit those points in my career, I’ve never been able to fix the current job. I wish I could be more encouraging about your current situation, but this is the one way in which jobs are like relationships: you can’t stay in them assuming that you can change the other person.

      I’m in that position right now too. I went from a job I loved with a great team, lots of autonomy, one of the best bosses ever, and regular work from home days to having the team disbanded and being assigned an “equivalent” role that was closer to an entry-level shadow of the old one with all the autonomy and WFH stripped away. Then my new team was assigned new tasks well outside our field that are extremely disruptive to work/life balance. A number of people have left and a lot of those left are looking. I’m looking, very reluctantly. Six months ago I intended to spend the rest of my career here, but the complete disregard our new leadership seems to have for its people is just too much to ignore. After all that they’ve already done, how could I trust that things won’t continue to get worse?

  98. PSB*

    Here’s my worst/best team building story, inspired by yesterday’s post:

    One of the keynote speakers at a project management symposium I attended a few years ago was the CEO of some fast-growing local tech startup. I’m not sure what the topic of his talk was supposed to be but he spent all his time on stage talking about how great his company was, how much everyone loved their culture. As an example of how great the culture was, he proudly told us about their occasional company retreats where they’d rent a big house and spend a few days brainstorming. Everyone loved it and they were all just so close and so comfortable with each other that they’d share beds and wash each other’s underwear!

    I was sitting at a table with my manager and teammates and we all looked at each other in horror. The boss immediately promised us we’d never have a team building event like that. But that speech turned into a long-running inside joke on our team with “washing each other’s underwear” as shorthand for forced team building run amok. So in the end that absolute insanity became the best team building moment we ever had.

    1. Four lights*

      What?! That’s bananas! And why underwear? Did he just mean laundry including underwear? I’m picturing washing it in the sink because there’s no washing machine. I wouldn’t even do that for my husband.

  99. Gail Davidson-Durst*

    Update from my interview last week – I got an offer and I accepted! I’m really excited.

    One question I asked in my interviews was extremely helpful to suss out the company culture, and also seemed to impress my interviewers a bit. It was “In your experience, what is the company’s approach to failure?” Not quite The Magic Question, but it’s definitely going in my repertoire!

    1. Gaia*

      Congratulations! That is so exciting!

      I really like that question. I can see it giving really great insight into the culture in a way others may not! I may add it to my list

  100. Gaia*

    So to add to my tale of woe of soon-to-be-unemployment:

    I realized last week that I think I have been misclassified as exempt for the last 2 months. Prior to this I was definitely correctly classified as exempt. I managed people, I made high level decisions that were impactful to the business, etc. But once they told me I was being laid off, my work went from that to matching Llama order billing addresses to Llama company accounts on spreadsheets. All. Day. Long. Everyday. I was explicitly told to drop my other work and removed from all other committees and meetings on higher level project. My direct reports were moved. So…there is no way this should be exempt work, right? This is basic data entry stuff.

    The question is..what do I do? I work 65+ hours a week, every week. They know this and they know it is what it takes to complete this project. But I don’t track hours anywhere (because: exempt). I’d like to avoid a wage claim because a. I don’t have the hours tracked so that is problematic and b. I’d love to not burn a bridge with this company. But also, I feel like it should be raised because it is a problem.

    Thoughts?

    1. Bea*

      Since it’s a wind down period towards layoff, I don’t know if a couple months of not meeting the requirements for exempt matters…I would seek an employment attorneys advice on that.

      At very least you can bring it up to HR and see what their answer is.

      1. Gaia*

        Yea it isn’t really “wind down leading to lay-off” so much as “we’d have laid you off 2 months ago but we desperately need this project done so stay and work insane hours while we pretend to try to help you find a job internally but really do nothing of the sort”

        I’m not bitter……

        1. Icontroltherobots*

          what happens if you leave after 40 hours? I mean they have already taken your job away, why kill yourself trying for a company that will no longer employ you?

          1. Gaia*

            The work doesn’t get done and if the project doesn’t get completed it really cannot be picked up by someone else. Mostly that would just irritate me because it would have wasted two months of my time.

    2. Borgette*

      Exempt or non-exempt is based on rate of pay, not type of work. As long as your salary is above the cutoff, your employer can classify you as exempt no matter what type of tasks you do.

      That said working 65+ hours a week is pretty extreme. Especially now that you are in the process of being laid-off, it’s probably worth talking to your manager about your schedule. Even as an exempt worker you can set reasonable limits on how many hours you work.

      2. Bea*

        No!!!!!!! That’s not how exemption works. Paygrade has nothing to do with it. No. No. No.

        Autonomy, duties and schedule are what make you exempt or not.

        Even if you pay a cashier 300,000 a year, they are non exempt.

      3. Borgette*

        Whoops! I was wrong.
        Exempt requires the employee to be salaried, make over 23,660k, AND be a white-collar worker.

        2. Really*

          No the amount is a ceiling of sorts. Anyone who makes less than that must be paid time and a half for overtime no matter what their job is. Above that amount overtime pay is based on job description.

  101. I edit everything*

    I’m a freelance editor, and my primary client is a publisher who hires a lot of contract writers. One of my jobs with them is reviewing writing samples from authors who want to write for them. An author/editor in last week’s batch included her resume and cover letter, which listed a startling number of achievements for her claimed age. One of her employers (as an editor) was *my* former employer, a publishing company which has since gone out of business. Curious, I emailed my former boss, who I’m still friendly with, and asked about her. It turns out that while she was an editor there, she was known to embellish the truth quite a bit, including her professional achievements as well as her personal backstory, and she only lasted a few months. She didn’t so much resign as disappear, giving no notice or explanation, not answering emails and phone calls, and leaving the authors she worked with hanging mid-edit.

    So, do I alert my current client to this history? It was several years ago (before I started there), so it’s possible she had extenuating circumstances, a mental illness incident, family emergency, was young and clueless, or whatever, and this isn’t an issue any longer. If she has turned over a new leaf, I don’t want to hinder her success. But if she hasn’t, then it seems wrong not to give my client a word to the wise.

    1. WellRed*

      It sounds like she may not have turned over a new leaf, though. You were already questioning her list of accomplishments.

    2. Holly*

      Can you not do a quick google and try to confirm some of her accolades on your own? If anything looks fishy just mention to your client that they may want to follow up with her prior employers because something doesn’t smell right.

  102. Yay for pay equity!*

    CELEBRATION!! Gender equity is actually being addressed in my org!!

    I’ve written before about some gender disparities in level and pay on my team. Well, I found out today that we’re undergoing a significant reorganization that will explicitly address that. I’m thrilled (and nervous about the fallout).

    The background: The two men on my team, who have equivalent work to the five women on my team, were classified as senior directors (and therefore paid at that level). The five women (including me) were classified as coordinators (one level below manager), managers, or directors (and paid accordingly). The difference in pay between the lowest-paid person (female) and highest-paid person (male) was 35%. (There were also some performance issues with both of the men, particularly around management of direct reports.)

    The change: One of the women is being promoted to a newly-created role over the whole team. I am THRILLED. She is excellent — definitely the right person for the job. Both of the men are losing their direct reports (who will now report directly to the woman who is being promoted; this includes me). My job description may be adjusted to do some new work that I would be super excited about.

    ALSO: I knew about the pay disparity because I manage a program budget that involves every staff person on my team (so my budget includes the hourly rate for every one of my team members). After noticing the disparity, I spoke with an employment lawyer (who had a background as a labor organizer, so perhaps gave different advice than another lawyer may have done). She recommended that rather than taking any action myself I let the affected women know that I had noticed the disparity and tell them that I was willing to support them in whatever they wanted to do. I did, and the woman who will now be my boss brought it up directly to our vice president… who promptly raised her salary to be equivalent to the men (this was before her promotion, which of course also comes with a raise). I’m SO pleased that our organization is actually taking this on and impressed with our VP for moving quickly.

    1. Kathenus*

      Congratulations on the way that you handled this, on the outcome, and for sharing the information with this group. Great job.

  103. dorothy_parker*

    Am I completely off that it’s super normal and smart to check references for both finalists when you’ve completed the interview stages of hiring? My small team is really hopeful to fill an open role soon because we’re very understaffed heading into our busiest season and we had 2 candidates that we thought were great. The senior powers that be preferred Candidate A, so HR then checked references, finalized the offer, and sent it. That took a little over a week and in that time, Candidate A was offered another job for much more money than we could give so she turned us down. Now, we’re back to Candidate B, who we’re very happy to be hiring but, I’m anxious that we could lose them because they didn’t check references until after we’d gone through the whole process with Candidate A. I have no control over any of this which doesn’t help because I’m not HR and can’t really push back on their process…or could I?

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      As a candidate, I would hate it if someone contacted my references and there was no job offer. It would make me seriously question what my references were saying about me.

      Even if it was clearly communicated that I was the second choice candidate, I would still be miffed that my references were checked when the company wasn’t intending to give an offer. Because I value my references’ time.

      The only time it would be acceptable in my mind would be if the candidates were so equal that the references would tip the scale one way or the other. But that’s a really unlikely scenario.

    2. Alice*

      Where would Candidate B be if you had checked their references and then decided to go with Candidate A? Candidate B’s manager would know they’re looking.

    3. Penguin*

      Speaking only from personal experience (but from both sides of things), I would have expected both Candidate A’s and B’s references to be checked before an offer was made to anyone. From a company’s perspective, references are a source for information about a candidate, the same as cover letters, resumes, and interviews. And from a candidate’s perspective, references are the last step before somebody gets an offer, not an indicator that *I* will be getting an offer, unless I happen to be the first choice.

  104. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    If she volunteered, I don’t really see the problem.

    If this was ALL she was good at and only mediocre at her job, maybe I could see where this would be a disservice. But I don’t see why she can’t be considered awesome at her job and awesome at her hobby.

    And I might be biased here as for years my family had a personal paper store so we had to be able to wrap presents beautifully. People ask my mom and me ALL THE TIME to wrap presents. It hasn’t hurt either of us professionally. If anything, my mom is known as the department head who also wraps amazing gifts. I’m not a supervisor or anything, haven’t been here long enough, but I’ve been given more responsibility. And the conversation never starts with “Here’s WDP ask her if you need anything gift wrapped.” It’s “Here’s WDP, if you have any questions about Llama Baton Twirling she’s your go to!”

  105. RDEngineer*

    I’ve got an exciting opportunity coming up at work where my department (research engineering) will be getting a newly remodeled office, and I get a lot of input! However, this is my first job out of college and I don’t have a lot of experience with different office environments. All of this leading to my real question, which is:

    If you could design an office from the ground up, what would be the first thing you put in?

    2. CheeryO*

      A big table to lay out plans, and a comfy chair for people popping by with questions or to chat.

    3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Decent lighting. Plenty of bookshelves and other storage space. Lockable drawers or similar for personal items. Recycling bins.

  106. I WANT MY PREVIEW*

    Shifting around some responsibilities in my department and new (2 months) employee says to me “if I’m going to do this, I’m going to need more money.” Um, I’m not giving you MORE work, I’m giving you DIFFERENT work. I understand that the different work isn’t precisely what you were hired to do. I don’t want to be giving you this work because instead of doing 25% A and 75% B, you’ll be doing 25% A, 65% B, and 10% C, but C is *easier* than A and B. And you can do B while doing C! And you haven’t done C yet to know if you like doing it! I’m glad she’s speaking up for herself in a workplace that is all male except for her and me, but I did not expect complaints from her about workload, at least not so soon. Grumble.

    1. Peaceful easy feeling*

      Sounds like she needs to how ‘C’ fits into or alongside ‘A’ and ‘B’. The percentages you provided would probably be helpful to that discussion. If ‘C’ wasn’t part of the original job, she probably doesn’t have a good read on how it plays into her role and the bigger scheme of things, if not why it’s landing on her desk. Will ‘C’ grow over time? Will a ‘D’ be added? You might not know but you might want to let her know about the shifting environment of your workplace.

    2. Bea*

      It is a fair request even if her workload didn’t change. She wasn’t hired to do C, even if it’s easy, it’s a different duty. This is how some places transition you from Hired Position to WTF is this Position? without giving you the appropriate salary.

    3. Borgette*

      I mean, it really depends on what C is, how different it is from A&B, and how much your employee likes that kind of work.
      For example; calling clients and administrating satisfaction surveys is easy, but I wouldn’t be happy about doing less of the more interesting analytics work I do to administer surveys. In fact, I would probably start looking for a new role.

  107. psychresearcher*

    How do I de-emphasize my current salary during a salary negotiation, when what I make is publicly available? Not sure how it is in other states, but I work at a public university in Texas, and my salary is public information because of the Texas Public Information Act. I’m not yet looking for a new position, but when I do, I feel like if I refuse to give my current salary, I’m either going to look like I don’t know it’s publicly available, or I do, and I’m just being difficult.

  108. Dr. Doll*

    I’ll try not to write novel here: I have a team member who deserves a reclassification which would come with a big raise. She *definitely deserves* this, she’s stellar.

    I am not in charge of those decisions, and my new boss wants to wait for *months* before even considering any such decisions, for Reasonable Reasons. I can (and have, and will continue to) advocate for an earlier consideration but if he tells me to pipe down, then I have to. The person is feeling very demotivated and unvalued now. I understand both their positions.

    She has a flexible schedule, a beautiful office, professional development opportunities if she wants them, we’re going to take a look at her project portfolio and move a couple of PITA things off so she can concentrate on an important new initiative. Is there anything else you all can think of, that *I* might be able to give her as the supervisor but not the manager? …or any other response?

    My goal is to have her not slump down into a muddy puddle of resentment, as that serves exactly nobody especially her.

    1. Alice*

      I’ve been in the position of your report. At first I was really glad to know that my boss + the next two layers of management were advocating for me. As time passed, I realized these managers could not/would not deliver what they told me they wanted to. Like your report, I felt unvalued — not by my boss but by the organization.
      What can you offer her? Accuracy about whether and when a decision will actually be made, and support if she decides to move on.
      Good luck.

    2. Havarti*

      How many months is your boss thinking about waiting? There’s a difference between, say, 4 months and 18 months. I can probably wait for 4 months for a big raise. But if your boss doesn’t have a set deadline in mind and things just… drag on, your employee is going to start looking. Flex time, nice office, and all that are nice things but they won’t hold someone forever if a promised pay raise never appears.

      There was a problem with a bad coworker in a previous job and my boss asked me to hang on and they would fix it. It took a few months but they did fix the problem and I stayed. But my boss kept their promise. So find out how many months your boss is thinking of, keep your employee posted, maybe ask her for feedback on what sort of things she would like in the meantime (did she ask for the flex time, office, prof. dev. opps.?). A deadline gives her a goal to work towards. But if she does feel resentful, you can’t magic it away, especially if boss drags their heels. So being truthful is probably the best thing you can do here.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        This – also, is your boss likely to keep a promise and not let it slip? Because to me that loss of trust in someone’s word is probably the most damaging to an employee already questioning the org and likely to tip them right into search mode.

    3. BRR*

      I’m in a similar position to your direct report and honestly, if she definitely deserves this (and it sounds like she knows it) and has to wait for a long time I’m not sure there is much you can do. Consider what the Reasonable Reasons are compared to losing her. If she can’t get the raise here she’s likely going to look to get it from another employer.

    6. Kathenus*

      I think you should continue to clearly tell her she’s valued, keep open communication with trying to get her new classification and the status, AND let her know that while you love having her on your team you would support her with a positive reference if she made the decision to move elsewhere. Kudos to you for being so supportive.

  109. Hixish*

    What I wanted to ask seems simple: Our PR and Marketing Specialist isn’t doing her job; she is instead pawning it off to me and the other staff members who aren’t her direct reports.

    Longer version: “Paula” is the PR and Marketing Specialist for a segment of our state-agency. She has had this position for over 20 years and she has never been good at it. She’s best buddies with our AVP and acts as though she is her personal assistant. She has never been good at her job and has always tried, very passively, to push it on others. Somehow, she got the AVP to agree with her. So Paula is doing nothing with respect to the job she’s being paid for.

    The AVP told our boss that we are to do everything PR and Marketing related. We are to create every flier for any event, we are to decorate every bulletin board in the building, update it constantly with new information/remove the old, etc. I personally am to do social media. I was hired 8 months ago as a supervisor and coordinator, nothing in my job description mentions PR or Marketing or anything similar.

    We are just expected to do this; my boss keeps saying it’s “no big deal” because it’s “not a lot to do”. It is a lot to do, though. He assumes that, in order to make our marketing better, we just have to do more of what we’re doing now when in reality we need to change what we’ve been doing in order to stay relevant. Paula has a direct report who handles Facebook. Once a month, he links one story from the main website. That’s it. My boss thinks since that’s all he does, that’s all I’ll have to do. But what I don’t understand is, if that’s all it is, why isn’t Paula’s direct report doing it anymore?

    I know that they want me to be the one running our social media (just Facebook but I do have plans to expand that and create a following) because of my age. I’ve been told that. Out of our 12 full time employees, I am the youngest at 28. Right there, they see my value. I feel as though my knowledge of social media and how to interact with our community is a skill that I have and Paula doesn’t. I believe with these new job duties, I should get a raise.

    I tried having a meeting about this with my boss. He kept repeating that it’s “no big deal” and “you’re not creating content and I don’t know how to use Instagram so that doesn’t seem important”.
    I would be creating content.
    Instagram and Facebook are important when you work for a university.
    He told me to write up a storyboard of what I’d do or want to do regarding Instagram (I was planning to write it up and map out the plan for each social media platform). What I’m worried most about, because my boss is extremely passive, is that they’ll take my ideas and either expect me to do it with no raise or they’ll give the ideas to someone else and not give either of us a raise. I know this might sound bad, but I expect a raise if I’m doing someone else’s work. She would be getting paid for my work. What should I do?

    1. I edit everything*

      Be really clear going in that TPTB want you to expand your organization’s social media presence. If they’re happy with one linked article a month, and aren’t offering you additional compensation for this additional role, then don’t go overboard with new work that won’t be appreciated. Track the hours you spend on managing the social media, so that when you go back to your boss with your storyboards and plans, you can say, “If you want this level of engagement, it will take me [X] hours a week to maintain it.” It sounds like clarifying expectations and providing metrics will be your main tools in this conversation.

    2. AK*

      You have a few options- 1. Find another job, the AVP/Paula thing and your passive boss sounds like a hot mess, 2. Push back on what’s being pawned off to you as “not a part of my job description, I’m busy with x, y, and z that I was hired to do” (but obviously nicer), 3. See if you can swing a raise with a new title- “Social Media Manager”, since it sounds like you need one. That way you could find comparable salaries and suggest a number, if it’s something you’re interested in changing over to full time

    3. LDP*

      I’ll just weigh in as someone whose job description actually does include social media. It may be worth it to bring up to your boss that in order to really grow a social media following you’ll have to pay to boost your posts and create ads for a long time to get people to follow you and actually notice your content, even if you’re not posting that much. If they’re not interested in paying you more to take on these duties, it sounds like they also may not like having to “pay to play” in the social media world. I’m sure you could find articles to back this up if that would get the message across clearer to them, I’m just speaking from my own personal experience here.

      Another thing about having a large social media following, it takes a lot more time to manage than you might think. You have to stay on top of comments and messages that you get, which can be a huge time suck for me, but it’s super important for messages to get answered in a timely manner. Not sure if yours would fall under this category, but a lot of business Facebook pages show how quickly you respond to messages, and while it may seem arbitrary, you still want that rating to look good. Like others have mentioned, it would be a good idea to track how much time social media is taking for you, even just to have a record if other duties are taking a backseat because you’re having to respond to messages or create content.

    4. WellRed*

      Do you WANT to do the social media stuff? In which case, I would want to take over ALL of it (like the FB), rather than have my boss point to the dude who links one story a month and says, that’s not hard.
      But, I didn’t think it was that easy for a university to just bandy jobs around to whoever. Am I wrong?

      1. Hixish*

        You all gave me wonderful ideas and some very useful tips! My boss has since reviewed my outline for two social media platforms and before I let him have a copy, I laid down my expectations:
        If I am to do this, I expect compensation. If you want someone else to do this and not me, I expect you to compensate them well. These ideas are NOT for Paula to implement because it’s my intellectual property.

        He agreed, read through it, and is now working with Paula to schedule a meeting for me, my boss, Paula, and the AVP. He has not given them a copy of the outline I created and it seems to be staying that way unless I want to give them a copy.

        I didn’t think about getting a title change but you’re right! That’s a great idea and would definitely be something to negotiate. A PR and Marketing Specialist in another department has been helping me with my presentation, too. I also love the idea of tracking my hours! Thank you all for your help and I’ll update you when I can!!

  110. Sandy*

    I have heard that the only way to get a really conservative organization to value and/or recognize innovation and risk-taking is to “enshrine” it in performance reviews. I.e. Make it a standing action item that is evaluated and reported on the same way as other indicators.

    Has anybody ever seen this actually work? Do you have any examples of performance review language that includes this?

    1. Brownie*

      I just had to write up my end of fiscal year performance review and this year one of the goals was an “Innovation or Stretch Goal” specifically put in place by management to make us think about at least staying up to date instead of resting on our laurels (as some of my coworkers have done in the past). It does actually work! If folks couldn’t think up a project to do then they could put down company-paid training instead. Whatever they chose they were at least forced to go outside their comfort zone bubble which is huge when trying to break enshrined behavior/culture.

      Language examples I’ve seen from a managerial/company level are
      -utilizing imagination and creativity to maximize customer satisfaction and employee productivity while exercising fiscal responsibility
      -seeking innovative service solutions that enable the company to meet customer needs while managing risk
      -employing innovative methods to promote capabilities, services, and ideas both for the company and clients

  111. AK*

    I’m struggling with a new hire and having so much trouble putting a positive spin on it. He interviewed well and seemed to catch on quickly, but has been making the same basic errors over and over again for the past week on a task that is a significant portion of the job. Each time we review the error, discuss how and why things are done the correct way, and how to double check to make sure the error isn’t repeated, but it doesn’t seem to be sinking in. We’ve discussed how important attention to detail is and I know his workload isn’t so heavy that it’s being done in a rush, nothing seems to be getting through.

    1. NicoleK*

      Can you put the steps of the task in writing? People have different learning styles so having a document to reference may help him.

      1. AK*

        Already done. We have a daily checklist and a few sets of “Try these next steps” depending on the stage of a project we’re in and what the status is. I don’t think he’s ever looked at it despite the fact that I direct him to it nearly every time he asks a question.

    2. Bea*

      I’m crying inside. I had “this guy” last year. Spoiler, he was fired after months of struggling to not screw up order entries.

      I showed him, made notes, drew pictures (not kidding), screenshots with step by steps and still, nope.

      Hopefully your guy is just nervous but I’m sad to assume you’re in my old boat.

      1. AK*

        Yep, we’ve done the same. I’ve put together screenshots of everything, everything is well documented in pretty easy to digest bullet points (vs. long paragraphs and blocks of text), and some things are even color coded in the instructional files. We’ve got a check in next week and I’m struggling to write helpful questions to direct the conversation that aren’t “what’s your deal?”

        1. Hope he quickly gets the hang of it!*

          How about “what is it about step P in Task X are you struggling to understand?” How about printing it out and putting it on his desk? I know you said he didn’t look at the instructions you provided but this might force him to look at it.

          1. AK*

            That’s a good one, thanks! I’ll definitely try the print out, I think the other thing I’m struggling with is his complete lack of proactivity, so I’m getting increasingly frustrated that I’m the one who has to print things out or write it down or suggest that he do the next task instead of him taking those steps on his own. (That’s another thing we’ve discussed and I’ve given specific examples during conversations and in writing of how he can improve, but that’s another post entirely!)

        2. Dino*

          Can you ask him to describe the process step by step to see where they breakdowns are/what he’s not retaining? Even though he has written instructions and pictures, I think asking someone to walk through the process in their own words is a helpful way to see where their thought process is going askew.

    3. LDP*

      When I very first started in the work world (we’re talking first internship in college) I know I made some errors on things that should be simple because I was working too quickly. I definitely didn’t have too much on my plate, it was more that I felt like I needed to prove myself and do things super fast. Maybe that’s part of his issue? Just to give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe you could stress to him to really take his time, if it’s not a super time sensitive type of project?

      1. AK*

        We actually just discussed that today! I don’t get the sense that he feels a need to prove himself (although I might just be in a grumpy mood today so that’s probably not entirely fair), and speed doesn’t appear to be a motivator, but we did have the conversation that I’d much rather he take a few minutes to review all points before acting and get it all correct than speed through it and overlook something. Hoping that helps, thanks!

        1. WellRed*

          Is his job at risk if he doesn’t get this? Have you communicated that clearly to him if it is, and if it’s not, have you clearly stated that he NEEDS to know how to do this? I am all for giving people time to learn and adjusting where needed to help on the training, but is he even trying?

          1. AK*

            Not immediately since we unfortunately can’t afford to be down a person right now, even if he’s operating at 75% success (usually higher), he’s still doing more than not having a person there would be. We’re having a more formal review next week than our regular short check ins, and there will be language much closer to what you’re suggesting though. He’s still new enough that an error like this is *occasionally* fine, but not as frequently as they’ve been happening. Thanks!

      1. AK*

        Yep, and tried to make suggestions of what I could offer when he couldn’t come up with anything. I’ve even gone as far as to give him resources that I’ve suggested and he said he didn’t think he needed, just in case he was afraid to ask or just might not realize that he needed it.

        He’s at least recognized in recent discussions that he’s made mistakes so I’m slightly encouraged by that?

    5. I edit everything*

      Clicker training. You know, like people use for dogs? It’s apparently really effective for people, too, when there’s a series of steps that people have to use, and get to know so that it’s just automatic.

      There’s an episode of the “Hidden Brain” podcast talking about it. A surgeon uses it to teach how to tie suture knots and things. Really fascinating.

  112. Lola*

    I’ve been interviewing for a position remotely, and have had 3 interviews over the past few weeks. I’ve been told to look out for a response next week. I’ve never sent out thank you letters after interviews before (I had no idea I was supposed to!) but now I put it off because it made me nervous and I don’t know if I should send them now. It’s been a week and a half since the first interview, a week since the second and 3 days since the last. Each interview was with only one person.

    Should I still send a thank you/follow up email? Should I send one to all them or each separately?

    1. AK*

      Definitely send them individually with a note specific to each rather than all together. It’s not too late to send to #3 and probably not to #2, it’s a bit of a long delay for #1 but you also wouldn’t want to email the others without sending a note to that one (never know what’s being shared on the hiring side!).

      Good luck!

      1. Lola*

        Thanks! I needed the push to get over the ‘oh no did I wait too long’ anxiety. I really appreciate it!

  113. Hipsterland USA*

    What is with more established women in the workforce telling younger women to “deal with it” because they went through similar? Seriously, I’ve had several instances where I went to a supervisor with very real concerns and I was told: well I went through that when I was your age too, too bad. Or, I was given a task and didn’t know a certain part of it and I asked for guidance and was told: well no one helped me when I was your age I just figured it out. It feels almost as if it’s a hazing into the work world.

    Example: I worked with an older woman almost 35 years my senior. She was the mothering/nosy type. We sat near each other in an open office plan. Every day she would harass me about what I was eating. Where everyone else was able to just eat snack freely, I was harassed about every little thing. She would point out it’s unhealthy or ask why I didn’t eat etc. I told our mutual supervisor if she could intervene. Her response is I should tell her to stop which I always did anyway. I would head on say I’m not interested in discussing my food choices but she did not stop. She actually escalated. One day I had a Lean Cuisine (specifically a low sodium one) for lunch and she pointed out that they were unhealthy due to sodium. I replied actually this one only has x amount of sodium. She became annoyed and defensive and also felt due to my age I couldn’t possibly know what I was talking about.
    In front of my supervisor she charged towards me and snatched the lean cuisine box out of my trash to read the ingredients (in front of our supervisor). My supervisor did nothing and in our next 1:1 I again reiterated telling her to stop doesn’t seem to be working and I need an authority figure to say something. My supervisor sighed and responded: yea I remember having those kinds of dynamics when I was your age, I just dealt with it. She proceeded to never do anything about my coworker. I eventually quit.

    I’m sorry but what someone else went through is none of my business. Issues should be addressed period and not brushed off as rights of passage.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      This reminds me of the conversation on a post…. yesterday, I think… about PTO and how some people think that if they had to suffer then everyone should suffer. It’s a shitty attitude, IMO. We should strive to make things better for those who come after us.

      1. Hipsterland USA*

        I really would like to get to the root of this mindset. Would these people had intervened if it’s something they had never gone through? Just because it’s something that was personally suffered by them doesn’t mean that moving forward everyone should suck it up and deal with clearly dysfunctional things.

        1. Bea*

          Many things have roots so deep you can’t find the source. There are people who use this line of thinking for everything in life.

          “I was beat with a stick! I’ll spank my kid, it worked for me.”

          “I never went to college, you don’t need any of that!”

          We only abolished slavery less than 200yrs ago

          People living today had to deal with segregation and many are still upset.

          Evolution takes time because so many are unable to break the mold and show others it’s okay.

    2. anna green*

      I don’t know! I feel the same way as you, don’t they want to make things better for other people instead of forcing everyone to suffer the same way they did? Isn’t that how this is supposed to work?
      But some people don’t seem to think that way. It’s weird.

      1. Hipsterland USA*

        I’ve even got the feeling that it came from a place of: “how dare you think you should be treated better than how I was treated”. I’ve never experienced this with male supervisors which is odd. It’s almost as if since we are both women she was letting me in on a secret: “shh…. just suck it up”. My current male supervisor intervenes immediately when he sees anything disruptive and if I need any kind of guidance he immediately provides feedback or training or at least schedules time when he is free. There is an older woman in my department who leans towards the mothering type and she made a comment about an interviewee being “so cute” in a babying voice. She went on about how cute and young he was. My supervisor immediately chimed in: “Let’s not comment on interviewees appearance. Especially not age related comments.” I thought to myself my old supervisor would have said nothing.

    3. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Have not had anyone say this to me in a woman in a workplace sense, but I will never forget meeting the landlady in our first apartments the next morning after my family arrived in the US. She came over, introduced herself, and went straight to “I came here from (our home country), we ate a lot of crap when we came here and now it’s your turn”. ??? Who says that? PS. 21 years later, still waiting for my serving of crap.

    4. Thursday Next*

      Honestly, when I read your first sentence I thought you were going to talk about harassment, or about being stuck with office cleanup tasks disproportionately.

      Yes, your coworker is out of line. Way out of line. But this seems like the kind of thing that doesn’t require supervisor intervention, for a couple of reasons—one, it’s not really a work issue as much of a relationship issue. That is, your coworker isn’t holding up or sabotaging workflow with her behavior. It’s also not a hostile workplace or harassment issue, in the legal sense.

      Two, I suspect that “I dealt with that too, and now you have to deal with it” actually means, “Yes, this is a shitty thing that happens to younger employees, and you have to find a way to shut it down *on your own authority* or intrusive coworkers won’t give you the respect you’re due.”

      I’d recommend not engaging with her when she initiates these things, beyond saying, “It is completely unprofessional of you to treat a colleague this way. Please don’t comment on my food choices again.” Don’t take the bait of arguing her “points”; defensiveness is like catnip to these nosy types.

      I didn’t have to deal with age-related issues when I started working, as I was in workplaces that skewed young, but I did have to deal with racial issues and learning how not to take the bait and get defensive, but frostily articulate a cease and desist was a key moment in my development.

      1. Hipsterland USA*

        I think the issue is that I did in fact speak up each and every time and it was ignored. Her interrupting my working as I snack on a “sugary” granola bar is actually affecting my work. I would say that angrily digging through my trash in my personal space after notifying her numerous times to knock it off with the food talk is in fact harassment. There were actually numerous other things she would do. For instance if someone came to ask me a question she would literally intervene and get up and block that persons path from my view and start speaking to them over me. I pointed that out to my supervisor after asking her to stop and nothing was done about that either.

        I did quit though and they considered it a big loss. I had the highest performance review score out of everyone including my supervisor and the coworker.

      2. Hipsterland USA*

        I wonder does ageism under law only apply to older persons? I would argue the times she would interrupt people that came to speak with me specifically about a work matter and come stand between us and say something along the lines of: yea I’m older so I know xyz. Or when working together on a project she would blatantly make age related comments all the time to the point that our work suffered because she saw my age before my work.

        My responses were always nonchalant and not very defensive. Just matter of fact with a straight face. She would just ignore my asking her to stop. It is disruptive in the work place to have someone constantly interrupting you and your work to point out your snacks and nutrition facts. I would argue a supervisor allowing someone to go through the trash of another employee to prove a point in a one sided argument is not acceptable. It’s ridiculous to ignore it and chop it up to “eh interpersonal problems none of my business”.

        1. Thursday Next*

          Legally yes, the definition is over 40.

          You could approach your manager and ask how they think you should proceed. Perhaps explicitly asking for suggestions will elicit a more useful response than what you’ve been given? It also shows you’re willing to try to put an end to it, while simultaneously alerting your supervisor to the fact that it hasn’t yet stopped.

          Of course going through your trash is a bizarre thing to do. If I witnessed that, I would probably talk to that coworker privately, though, and not rebuke her in front of you.

          It’s annoying and frustrating, and in your shoes I’d issue requests to stop a maximum of twice before simply ignoring her.

          1. Hipsterland USA*

            I have since resigned and now work for a company where anything of the sort would absolutely not be tolerated, would be frowned upon and def not a part of the overall culture. I myself have been a supervisor since that experience and have managed folks older than me. I would not allow that on my team even though I have been through it. I would count it as harassment and tell them to knock it off and what whomever is eating is none of her business. I would also point out that disrupting a coworker’s work to intervene on uninvited work related conversations isn’t productive.

        2. Holly*

          It depends on your state and municipality law. Federal is over 40. NYC, there’s no age restriction.

      3. Afiendishthingy*

        Yeah, sorry Hipsterland, this does suck and you shouldn’t just put up with it, but it’s also not your boss’s problem to solve. Your coworker is bonkersville. Tell her to stop but also don’t give her too much attention for this ridiculous behavior. Walk out of the room or ignore her reading the ingredients. Roll your eyes and pretend you’re in a workplace sitcom. Don’t take this to your boss.

        2. Afiendishthingy*

          I do feel your pain though, this is how my mom is. Of course you’re unhappy, nobody’s HAPPY, but we don’t TALK about how unhappy we are.

      4. Observer*

        one, it’s not really a work issue as much of a relationship issue.

        No. This is not an either / or issue. It’s a workplace issue because it’s a relationship issue that is happening IN THE WORKPLACE and is creating a problem for someone.

        It’s also not a hostile workplace or harassment issue, in the legal sense.

        So? Legality is the bare minimum you should be looking for not the optimal way to manage. It’s not even a barely useful way to manage.

        In this case, the coworker may not have been officially interrupting someone’s work, but treating someone like garbage, trying to police behavior that is none of their business is real misbehavior, and it needs to be stopped. It’s an abuse of power, and no decent boss should allow it.

        It also makes the victim less productive, and it makes the victim (and oftentimes bystanders) more likely to seek employment elsewhere. Losing good employees is a cost to the business.

        1. Hipsterland USA*

          I was starting to think I was off mentally to think a manager should intervene on disruptive behavior “relationship-based” or not.
          I probably should have pointed out that I DID try ignoring her to no avail. What actually did end up happening was the coworker would complain to our boss that I was “ignoring her” and my boss would ask me in front of her why I was ignoring her of which I would reply well nothing has been said work related so I don’t see the problem. Seems like she was open to addressing relationship problems when it was the older coworker.

    5. Kathenus*

      I know the situation is over but wanted to toss in a suggestion for the future. Your coworker was being reinforced for this behavior because she kept getting a reaction. You tried responding, pointing out when things were healthy, asking her to stop, etc. – all of which are valid things to try. But they didn’t work. So continuing to use these methods was unlikely to result in the change you were trying for. At that point just ignore it, don’t respond, don’t engage. Don’t make it a game for her to keep getting the reaction and the interaction. Simply act as if she hadn’t even spoken and eat your food. Sorry you had to deal with this.

    6. Scandinavian in Scandinavia*

      What you describe in this post and in the comments is to me totally unacceptable and definitely a management problem! No, you were not supposed to live with that and I am glad to see that you are in a better place now.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      “Just handle it” is code for “I have no idea wth to do here”. Your boss was clueless.

      This is handy to know because you will see it over and over. Docs who say just handle it, have no clue what to do, get another doc. I still see it now but not as often.

      I would have asked her why she doesn’t talk to other people like that? You can ask a person like this, “If we were the same age would you still talk to me like this?”
      Then there’s, “Gee, when I reach (estimate her age) I am going to know not to talk to people like you are doing here. Thanks for showing me this.”

      It’s true though, my early 20s sucked big time because of the way the older folks talked to the younger folks. My generation really did not learn how to handle that very well, either.

  114. Batshua*

    Aaaah!

    I … contacted … the state disability commission … about what’s happening at my job.

    I am freaking the heck out. So many whatifs. But they put a letter of admonishment in my record even though I am actively working on managing my symptoms which are not yet under control. I mean, they’re also refusing to consider 5 minutes of flex time or whatevs as an accommodation.

    No news from my doctor on whether or not I qualify for a placard yet.

    2. Close Bracket*

      Oh gosh, I am sorry you are in this situation! I have also contacted state commissions about Things, and it’s really draining. Amp up the self care. I hope things work out for you.

  115. Firefly*

    Has anyone ever heard of an employee filing a lawsuit against their company and being hired back? A woman in another department quit and filed a sexual discrimination lawsuit against her boss/the company. There was some merit found in her claims but I don’t know all the details. I would assume she does not have a future at the company but a coworker said she wants to return. Has anyone experienced this?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If the lawsuit is settled in her favor and the boss who was discriminating against her is terminated, I think being restored to her previous position is reasonable restitution.

    2. AK*

      No idea, but she should be able to call HR and ask if she’s eligible for rehire. It’s the same thing anyone calling to confirm end dates would do if she’s applying for a new job, I would think they’d be able to give her that information.

    4. Chaordic One*

      When I worked in Academia there was a group of female professors who sued for gender-based discrimination. They won their case, received significant pay raises and all kept their jobs. I’m not aware of any subsequent attempts at retaliation against them. The original lawsuit and settlement was more than a decade ago. I remember a newspaper interview where one of them was asked why she would want to continue working at a place where they discriminated against her and she had an odd rationalization that I didn’t really understand.

      (One of the women had a horrible reputation for mistreating support staff. She was just plain mean and she was the ringleader of the group who filed suit. The support people from other departments all figured that she was able to channel that meanness for good when she filed suit against the sexist college administration, but after she won the case, she went back to being mean to the support staff.)

  116. University faculty member*

    I want to ask a very naive question (so please be kind) about time off, based on some of the conversation in yesterday’s post about benefits/PTO. The nature of my job is that essentially, as long as I am in the classroom for my classes, I more or less can come and go as I please. In theory I think I have PTO, but in practice I don’t have to tell anyone or ask permission to come in late or stay home for the day, etc. We’re also on nine-month contracts, so summers we have “off” (although this is prime research time), and weekends, holidays, other school breaks we are also off as well.

    The discussion about benefits and PTO had me thinking about the difference between PTO and other time off (leaving aside sick days). If you run out of PTO, are you just not allowed to take time off at all? So if you had your 10-day PTO vacation, and wanted to take time off later in the year, this would just not be allowed? Or is this about the financial burden of not being paid for a few days? I am trying to understand if PTO is ultimately about the freedom to have time off or about the financial aspect. I know for a lot of people a day’s pay can make a huge difference in a budget and whether one can put food on the table, but for a lot of exempt, white-collar professions, upper management, etc., I would imagine that losing a couple of days salary would not be ruinous and might be worth it as the cost of the pleasure of a break or trip, so it seems to be more about freedom and flexibility. I fully recognize that this is an embarrassingly naive question, but I’m trying to figure out how this works in not-academia.

    1. LCL*

      My job is a full time government job, with benefits. Here, all of the jobs are full time jobs. If you have time off that isn’t covered by paid leave, your benefits including your pension could be affected, as everything is calculated by the hours that you work. It is possible to get leave without pay, but that requires getting HR involved and filling out forms.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      For a salaried person, a day off without pay is a big deal for HR, so it’s not an issue of being able to afford the freedom of taking an unpaid day, it’s literally not being allowed to do it. For an hourly employee, it’s often easier to not pay you for a day, so you may have more freedom. But if you get benefits, there’s still the issue of whether you have to pay more for your health insurance that month, or earn less PTO, etc.

    3. Victoria, Please*

      Our faculty get paid sick leave, but do not have paid vacation except for one “personal day.” On the other hand, they are not supposed to be expected to work during summers or breaks (ha!).

      If you teach MWF here, and you’re too sick to come in on Monday but you’ll be fine by Wednesday, you have to: Call in sick Monday. CALL ON TUESDAY and say you’re available (and then don’t come in). Come in and teach on Wednesday. If you don’t call on Tuesday then you’re charged for two sick days even though you weren’t teaching.

      If faculty run out of paid sick leave, they will lose a day’s pay for being sick. If they are not yet eligible for FMLA they can lose their position (very rare because no one wants to fire a qualified faculty member). If they have to miss a day of class for a non-sick, non-university-related reason, they lose a day’s pay. This can indeed be a financial hit for them.

      PTO for most people is about both freedom and finances. If you run out of PTO, in many places you can simply be fired. If you run out of PTO, for most people the pay is an issue.

    4. Four lights*

      It’s both, depending on the job. Some jobs (Actually I’d think most jobs) won’t let you take unpaid time, and if you take off anyway they could decide to fire you. Ideally, if you ran out of PTO and got sick or had a funeral the job would be sympathetic though.

    5. Overeducated*

      Yes, for professional workers PTO is generally about having the ability to take the time off, not just the pay – there isn’t really a difference between “PTO” and “other time off” because there isn’t “other time off,” unless there is a really good reason you need to take leave without pay, like FMLA.

      My friends who are postdocs and faculty sometimes complain about having “no PTO,” i.e. not being able to take vacation or sick days when they’re teaching, but they don’t seem to understand that they get to use flexibility where other people would have to use limited PTO (i.e. to take off the day after Thanksgiving, to take two hours in the middle of the day for a doctor’s appointment, to work remotely during winter and summer breaks, etc.); in my experience, academics get more total time off as a result. The sick day thing is a little rougher but occasionally academics do have others cover their classes in a pinch, and can get by with less childcare help if you can take the rest of the day off without penalty; also, people in other fields may not be teaching specifically, but we do have different obligations that can make it very difficult to take a sick day without causing hardship to others or our performance. I left for government a couple years ago and can you tell, the flexibility and holiday time off is the #1 thing I miss the most?

    6. Gumby*

      Depends on the job. My current job allows ’employee elected unpaid absence’ at your manager’s discretion. I’ve had past jobs that would allow it but only during the December shut-down if you’d used up all of your paid time off (since the office was closed there was no option to work on those days) though you could ask for an advance on the next year’s PTO if you preferred.

      Also, most of the places I have worked have not had partial days off. As long as your work was done it wasn’t a big deal to leave mid-day for a doctor’s appointment. That is probably not the norm.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      For retail people and other front line people, it’s both the amount of time available for use and getting paid for that time. They don’t make much so going without pay is a huge problem. If you have the time coming to you it is a tiny bit easier to argue with that toxic boss who does not let anyone take time off for any reason.

      In jobs with set hours and hourly pay, they can and will deny requests for unpaid time off. Heck, requests for paid time off that is owed can be denied. It’s at the whim of the boss. “You have on a purple shirt today. I do not like purple shirts. No, you cannot have your time off that you requested.”
      And if you call in sick, no one asks you if you are okay they just ask if you have any sick time left. If you say no, they say, “Get off your death bed and come into work.” I cannot tell you how many places I have seen the running joke is “Don’t call in dead. being dead is no excuse for not working.” It’s closer to the truth than we really want to talk about.
      You call in with or without available PTO you can lose your job.

  117. Echo*

    I’m not interested in leaving my job but I just started a leadership position in my outside-of-work volunteering, and was thinking about updating my resume. I had one student job, one short-term internship, and then worked for a few years each at two companies and moved up the ranks. My resume currently has separate entries for Llama Intern and Llama Groomer at company A, and then separate lines for Llama Groomer and Senior Llama Groomer at company B. I’m guessing I should probably consolidate these into one entry for each company, even though the Llama Intern, Llama Groomer, and Senior Llama Groomer responsibilities are quite different. Is that right?

    (Also, if I theoretically job hunt, I don’t know, 5 years from now, it wouldn’t make sense for a hiring manager to contact my internship or student job supervisor as a reference, right? They probably barely remember me *now*, though I was a high performer, much less 5 or more years from now.)

    1. Chaordic One*

      I would really leave the separate positions at each company for the time being. They demonstrate a steady progression of advancement that makes a good impression on prospective employers. When more than 5 years have passed since you worked at a particular employer, you can consider consolidating first the oldest position, and then the other one. When you have more than 10 years of experience since you worked there, you can probably drop them from your resume and concentrate on the most recent jobs..

      It’s unlikely that a hiring manager would contact the people you worked for during your internship or your student job supervisor, but it could happen. If you ever apply for a government job they might check as part of the background check and/or security clearance, they would probably check.

  118. TooMuchPTO*

    A comment on a thread yesterday inspired this question:

    What do you do when you spouse/s.o. has significantly less vacation than you? I work for a large company with a fairly generous PTO policy, whereas my boyfriend works for a small family-owned company – in theory he has a lot of flexibility to take time off, but in practice he relies on 1-2 people to cover for him when he leaves so is understandably hesitant to take much time off.

    I’d love to take trips with him, but given that it isn’t always possible, I’d love to hear how other people handle this! Do you do staycations? Vacation with other family members? Use PTO for single days vs. entire weeks?

    1. Beatrice*

      I do a mix of those things! I do staycations. I’ve done mom-and-son roadtrips with our child. I visit family members or take trips with them. I also have the option to cash in vacation time instead of using it, and I’ve done that before. My SO also takes vacation time off without me, too, even though he has less. He just had a long weekend in a nearby big city with a handful of friends for a convention I wasn’t interested in attending.

    2. CheeryO*

      I had this problem up until this year when my boyfriend finally got an extra week of PTO. I did a variety of things – stockpiled some extra days just in case, took random full or half days off (especially nice on a Friday in the summer!), and went on quite a few trips with friends.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Hoard vacation (if allowed) so I get a nice payout when I leave. Take one day off each quarter just as a “fun” day — movies, dog park, etc. Take time off for home projects (not necessarily renovations or anything like that — just, like, clean out the basement storage or whatever). Add days on either side of holidays (I took Thursday and Friday after the 4th of July this year just for the heck of it).

    4. Echo*

      Similar here – my SO has at least as much vacation time as I do if not more, but can’t usually take it because of the workload.

      I love solo trips. The great thing about traveling solo is you can spend time 100% on the things you want to do. I like getting up early and taking loooooong walks, and I have a secret fondness for attractions that are objectively tourist traps. I can do these things as much as I like when I travel alone!

    5. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      In my first serious relationship post-divorce, I was that boyfriend. The SO had months upon months of paid time off (academia where he was not required to do research work), and I first had 3-4 weeks, then changed jobs and the new place gave you no PTO at all for the first six months. He ended things shortly after that. Not for that reason specifically, but I am sure it was one of the factors.

      The next one after him, when we met, I still had no PTO, and he was finishing building out the first store he was opening for a new business he’d started (by the time we split up two years ago, he had five stores). Meaning, not only did he have no vacation, it was a good week when he had one day off vs none. We just made sure to make the most of that one day a week. Day trips, cultural events, he’d come to my city and we’d go do something there as there were more events happening in my area. Went hiking to the Metroparks quite a few times and so on. I spent the rest of my PTO with my family (I have two grown children and one living parent, who lives nearby). Took two weeks off once and my younger son and I flew across country to visit the older son, without the BF. Right before we ended things, this BF actually finally took a long weekend off to go to a family reunion. He invited me, but I didn’t go and now regret it. His family sounded fun and I won’t get another chance to meet them now that he’s a thing of the past. TL;DR: we planned ahead and did the most we could with the little time that we had. (We were also both broke at the time, which was not helping with the planning.) Whereas for the first boyfriend, it was four weeks in Paris or bust. No meeting me halfway.

        1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          And, “we split up two years later”. Not “two years ago”. I cannot type things correctly the first time to save my life.

    6. Red Reader*

      I have literally almost three times as much PTO as my husband does. We made a deal that he doesn’t mind if I go most places within the US solo, but we have a short list of places that are “off limits” for solo trips because we want to go to those places together. (We agreed that international trips should also be shared.) I do a lot of long weekends at Disneyworld, sometimes alone and sometimes with my parents – they and I are all annual pass holders – and at the beginning of the summer I went on a week-long road trip of Civil War battlegrounds with my bestie. I don’t do staycations because I work from home and I suck at being at home and not working on a workday :-P

    7. Bluebell*

      I took a weeklong vacation all alone this summer. It was glorious. I also do a long weekend trip with a college friend each year.

    8. Ranon*

      One thing my husband does (he is the one with more vacation) is take the day before our trip and the day after our trip off to do all the life logistics on either end- that way neither of us is doing the life catch-up stuff at the same time we’re catching up at work. I just have to pack and unpack my bags, he deals with the mail stops and trash and laundry and groceries and all that stuff while he’s off and I’m at work.

  119. Cookie (monster)*

    At the end of an interview, I was asked “If you were extended an offer is there anything that would prevent you from accepting?”
    I answered “no, not that I can think of” because initially what came to mind is something formally preventing me from taking the job, such as an agreement with my current employer, legal issue, citizenship, etc.

    Later as I thought about it, was this the right answer? I feel like I should have said something like “well I’d of course like to review compensation/benefits before making any decision” or something of the sort.

    This was NOT a final interview, and it was previously indicated that a second interview would be following. So I didn’t feel this was a commitment or anything.

    What were they looking for, and what would you have said??

    1. Beatrice*

      I think this was the reverse of the common interviewee question “Do you have any concerns about me as a candidate?” I would love to hear it in an interview, because I think it shows that they’re aware that an interview is a two-sided process and they’re acknowledging that you may have concerns about the company that would make you decide to turn down an offer, and they’re looking for people who are being thoughtful about that.

      I would have used it as an opening to air (if I haven’t already) anything that gave me reservations about accepting the job, or any dealbreakers that I hadn’t sussed out a solution for elsewhere in the interview process. If I have three weeks of vacation at my current job and I wasn’t budging for less than three at a new job, I might bring that up. Or if the open plan office setup gave me the heebie jeebies, I might point it out as a drawback and ask how their people like it, and make sure that I can wear headphones.

  120. DCGirl*

    I work as a proposal manager, and this past weekend the team worked all weekend, including an all-nighter on Saturday night (we worked from 10:00 a.m. Saturday to 7:00 a.m. Sunday) for a proposal that was due via email on Monday at 4:00. One of my colleagues, an older gentleman, just told me that he was gone so long over the weekend that his neighbors got concerned and called the police for a welfare check. “He usually tells us when he’s going on vacation,” they said. The police caught up with him on Tuesday, and he assured them that he was ok.

    I’ll be glad when proposal season is over (September 30, end of the federal fiscal year).

  121. anon for this*

    Anyone have a recommendation for where to look for Irish (ROI) IT/web jobs? irishjobs.ie seems fine but general-purpose. Thanks!

  122. TooSenstiveInTulsa*

    My boss (sorta, weird company dynamic) doesn’t recognize that when he speaks his tone and language doesn’t motivate people, in fact, the opposite seems to be the case. I’ve had office mates come to me and say that he made a perfectly good day miserable. I brought it to his attention and he says they are too sensitive or that they just don’t feel that way and somehow I’m the mistaken one. I think people are afraid to confront him on his words so he rarely gets direct feedback that his words have the power to demotivate and belittle (and outright hurt) people. What is the best way to approach this to avoid gaslighting and get through about the real issues?

      1. Tulsa*

        I approached him last month, expressing that someone on the software development team had some feedback that they shared with me about an event a few weeks before. The boss had come in unexpectedly and immediately began jokingly (maybe a better term is passive aggressively) critiquing a project extensively, “don’t you know how to X? Geez guys, look at Y!” The team took it as their boss saying they are failing on the project and felt demoralized where his perspective was that he was cleverly couching motivation and instruction in humor and they are delicate snowflakes for feeling bad. It is a difficult conversation for me, but I tried to very nicely say that after the fact several people gave me the same feedback about the day and that his precetpton of the event and theirs was very different. Mind you, this interaction is not my job. I am a member of the team, not a member of leadership, so it is even more complicated.

        1. AK*

          oh yeah that sucks, sorry. If he’s the kind of person who calls people snowflakes (directly or indirectly) I haven’t seen much in their ability to consider how their actions impact other people. I know that’s a huge generalization, but it’s been the case in my experience.

          Our HR team occasionally does seminars for managers on different topics, one of which is how to communicate with people who have different working styles. If you have a decent HR department, they should at least have some resources that might help you come at the topic from a different direction?

        2. Trout 'Waver*

          It’s never going to go well when you try to act as an intermediary in these situations. You’re telling the boss that people are upset, but they’re not upset enough to do anything other than gossip among each other. I hate to be black and white, but there isn’t much grey area here. If your boss is reasonable, your coworkers who are offended can talk to him directly. If your boss in unreasonable, your talking to him on their behalf isn’t likely to have a positive outcome. I don’t think there’s much room in the “just barely reasonable enough to take indirect feedback” gap.

          The boss told you he intended his comments as motivation and instruction. Instead of getting caught up in tone and delivery, try to figure out what he’s trying to communicate.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I feel like he’s going to need to hear it from *his* boss for it to be actionable.

      Unless you have a really solid relationship with him where you can be completely honest.

      1. Tulsa*

        He doesn’t have a boss… therein lies the problem. He has a single peer on the leadership team who is he only feasible person with “power. I’ve talked to her before and probably will again.

    3. Ender*

      I think the reason your coworkers aren’t bringing it up with him is because they fear some sort of retribution. What I don’t understand is why you are so keen to put yourself at risk of retribution by getting involved?

  123. Formerly Arlington.*

    I have been in marketing at a large company for years and am getting laid off. :-( Fortunately, I have a few opportunities, and am most interested in ones that seem like the opposite of the fortune 500 type that I have just been cut from. The one I’m most interested is an advertising agency. Any suggestions for assessing whether the agency life will work for me or how to adapt from corporate culture to what appears to be much more casual? Fewer processes (and rituals) appeals to me after what I’ve been through with this reorg and I want to make sure I don’t make any missteps if I join this team.

    1. Former agency chick*

      There definitely aren’t fewer processes and rituals at an agency, especially if you work for one that’s owned by a conglomerate. As one of my old bosses said, “We have more paperwork than the government.”

  124. Temperance*

    I think those are way too soft, to be honest. Are these employees peers, or does he outrank her? I’m assuming that they are peers.

    I see a huge problem with a male peer directing a female peer to take on that particular duty. You need to put the kibosh on this, and now. “Jim, why did you send Julie to the front desk?” is the best way to start this conversation. Don’t thank him for “taking initiative”, because, well, taking initiative would have been a.) sitting there himself and/or b.) asking you who was covering.

    It’s totally a gendered Thing in the workplace where some dudes will just take authority that they don’t have, and then they get away with it.

    1. AK*

      Same. Try to get to bed early tonight and get some extra pup snuggles. That’s my plan, we’ll see if I end up there before 2am.

    2. IceTea4Meee*

      Yes…. unfortunately I’m also working 12 and 16 hour days to cover everyone else’s vacation time. Seems like theres not even time for laundry or dishes.

  126. Mariella*

    So, after my new grand boss decided to create a new poition for me in a new department.(he found out i had an offer and convinced me to stay). He announced i would be moving in the next 2 weeks.

    Only i havent had a contract. Or salary or even the name of the position or job spec. I said i would be interested in trying it out but it seems its been taken as a hard yes.

      1. Mariella*

        That i would recieve one, but isnt top of his list to do because he needs to focus on other issues right now.

        Also as this position would be a brand new role to the org, that he created for me, its going to be a gray area with lots of movement.

        So nothing specific or definate by any means!

  127. Lincoln in the Bardo*

    I am looking for advice on sending a goodbye email on my last day at work. I’ve sent out the “mass” email to coworkers and partners, and a more personal email to my immediate team. My departure has been in the works for a few weeks, so my goodbye party was two weeks ago. I sent a “thank you; it’s been great to work with you” email to my supervisors after the party. My gut instinct is to send another email today to my supervisors, but I’m not sure what to say. It feels like overkill to send another “It’s been great email”…is there something else I should be saying? FWIW, I am close to one and we have had many goodbye conversations and the other seems to prefer to be hands off and have email kept to a minimum.

    1. I edit everything*

      I think another email would be overkill. I’d just drop by their offices before you leave for the day with a “thanks, let’s keep in touch,” and a handshake. If that’s not practical (you’re remote, or something), then a quick “Lincoln has left the building” type note would be appropriate.

    2. Beatrice*

      Are they all connected with you on LinkedIn, if you have one, and do they all have alternate real-life contact info for you? Sharing that on your last day as you wrap up is a good way to add some substance to one more goodbye.

  128. Intel Analyst Shell*

    Tips for returning to school as a grown-up?

    Long-winded details:
    I earned my associates degree years ago and stopped there as I had no idea what I wanted to do. Fast forward 8 years and our local university has added a new bachelors degree program that I jumped at the chance to enroll in, it goes along with my career path and I’m generally pumped. But, classes start Tuesday night (6p-9:30p) and I’m starting to really worry that I’ll be able to handle all of the demands of life. I’m starting with two classes to ease my way back in. I currently work 40 hours a week, have a 10 month old, and have a husband who works a complete opposite schedule from me. One of us is always with baby, which is awesome, but that means I won’t have any alone time for studying, homework, etc.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Find out what resources your school offers and take advantage of them!

      If you have an academic counselor, they may be able to help you figure out a schedule to complete all of your obligations. If you’re struggling with a specific subject, find out if there is a tutoring service available.

      Also – you tube has videos on pretty much everything. When I worked in academics, I frequently recommended it as a resource for students struggling in math.

    2. Nanc*

      Full disclosure: worked with/taught university non-traditional students for 10 years. You’ve no doubt planned for this new adventure but until you’re in process it’s hard to know exactly how things may shake out. That said, I suggest you drop one class and see how this term goes. If the syllabi are available online take a look and see which looks easier and keep that one. Getting back into the swing of school, especially evening/weekend classes with a baby takes quite a bit of adjustment. It’s a little late but you do need to get a plan in place for alone time to study. I would suggest sitting down with your husband the weekend after your first class and come up with a plan. What happens if baby is sick? What happens if husband is also sick and can’t care for baby? What happens if you get sick? What can you blow off housework wise? Can you afford a cleaner to come in for the term and clean bathrooms/kitchen once a week or so? What about grocery shopping and meals? Can you batch cook and freeze a bunch of stuff? Where are you going to study? Do you have a quiet place at home? Do you need to carve out time to go to the library? Are there group projects you’ll need to schedule? What about work? Are you ever on call? Do you usually have overtime this time of year?

      This is going to be a big adventure and it will be worth it in the end, but again, I would suggest starting a bit slower with just the one class. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

      1. Ender*

        I think the key is be careful not to bite off more than you can chew. If you can carve out some study time (get babysitting for a few hours a week) you might be able to handle the two classes. But otherwise if you just have the specific amount of time available you’ve already planned for two classes, you could drop one class and use the second class time for study / assignments.

    3. Alice*

      There are so many more support services for students these days. Libraries, Centers for Teaching and Learning, and Deans’ Offices can all host them.
      Separately — consider spending money to make your life easier. Could you study, do laundry, and wash the baby at the same time? Probably. Can you afford to have someone else handle the laundry (or the baby, or both)? I don’t know. But if you can, consider it. I always used to feel guilty about paying for a service I didn’t truly need, or an upgrade on a plane. But sometimes it’s the best option for your well-being (mental as well as financial).
      Have fun!

    4. Red Reader*

      Seconding throw money at it, if that’s an option. Mother’s helper to help with the baby for a couple hours on (for example) Thursday evenings and Sunday mornings? You don’t necessarily need a super experienced super high trained babysitter when you’re sitting in the next room, but a 13 year old can do the trick in a pinch, especially if you’re willing to be a reference for them a year or two down the road. Then you can use that time for homework or chores or whatever sounds good to you. Or pay someone else to do the chores. (Make sure husband is doing his share of the chores – if not, revisit that.)

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        First off, congrats on taking the plunge back into school. I too, was a non traditional student (I went back to school when I was 30 to finish up) so I understand your anxiety. The only advice I can add is to communicate with your teachers and let them know about your situation. One thing I was completely blown away by when I went back to school was the lack of students taking advantage of resources (office hours, etc.). There is a decent chance that your instructor will be an adjunct member which is great because that means they likely have a full time job in addition to their teaching duties or they were in the professional working world before transitioning to teaching so they’ll likely be sympathetic to your situation. It sounds like you have a solid support system in place and as long as you’re good with time management (and the curriculum obviously) I think you’ll find that you’ll do quite well in your classes. Good luck!

  129. Friendly Fundraiser*

    I recently moved from a small org (20 people) where I’d worked for five years in my first role in my field, and grown from associate to department lead, to a partner organization (also senior role, but much bigger org, about 60). It’s a smallish field, and I have known my new boss generally for the entirety of my old job. I wasn’t poached, but I reached out to him prior to applying to learn more about the position, for instance.

    My last year at the old org was quite frustrating and challenging, in no small part due to a boss that was undermining, petty, and passive-aggressive (he admitted to a coworker that he tried to make my life miserable because he thought it was time that I move on, but knew I was too good at my job/well-liked to fire). I’m great at what I do, but it’s certainly made me a little distrustful/anxious. My new boss is incredibly friendly and open, but I’m really not used to sharing info in the way that’s expected, admitting when I’m hitting a wall, reflecting on feedback, or offering my input without feeling like it’s a trick question. I suspect my new boss has picked up on it — he’s pretty perceptive, and is going out of his way to be nice/supportive. Which almost makes me more distrustful!

    I’d like to develop a good rapport with my new boss, who is great, and I think we’re getting there, but what’s the best way to a.) calm down and move past the fears I developed at my old job and b.) have a conversation with my boss about this, if it’s necessary? For the record, he’s known my old boss for years, but they’re not close; now that I’m out of job especially, it’s clear that my old boss’s reputation is a solid B-list, but he’s generally perceived as a lightweight.

    1. Bea*

      It’s all about giving it time. You need to warm up to anyone new and never jump all into a new relationship with anyone, a boss included, without being reserved and dipping your toes in. This is how trust is earned.

      Remember these are different people. No matter how badly the last one treated you. This person isn’t your old boss, let them show you who they are naturally.

      I wouldn’t have any conversations early on about your cautious approach. Most bosses should already know they have to earn your trust gradually!!

      I am almost a year removed from my heinous jerkwad boss and I’m trusting of my new boss because he’s shown to be completely different. I told him my boundaries and the bare minimum of why I left the hellhole. He gets casual stories now so he knows I’ve “seen shtt” and dealt with a lot of BS. So he’s very good at letting me know we don’t work that way here, knowing it stresses me out.

      It’s okay to wade into the waters slowly but surely.

  130. Advocate Manager*

    I work for a nonprofit in a satellite office where we are considered contractors. My staff there is funded by a separate revenue stream that can not be used for staff at the main office. Because all of us are chronically underpaid, management is reluctant to allow my staff to have even a minor raise, even though the money is available. I think they shouldn’t be deprived of a nominal increase just because the rest of us aren’t getting raises. Just to be clear, this does not include a raise for me, just my staff, who would still be underpaid even with raises. Any thoughts on how to present this, or am I off base? Management prefers equal suffering, while I think we should lessen it where we can.

    1. BRR*

      I’m sorry that I don’t really have an answer for you but I think “How do I ask for raises for my staff?” would be a great question for Alison.

    2. Holly*

      I second e-mailing Alison with this question. But also, i think you have the right to fight for your team. You may lose, but I can’t see a glaring reason not to talk to management about why it’s necessary. Have a list of bullet points.

  131. Time management*

    What are your best time management tips for managers? I’m still relatively new to management and am really struggling to balance all the competing priorities. Basically, the tricks that worked for me as an individual contributor aren’t working as well anymore and I feel chronically unable to stay on top my to-do list — even though this has never been much of an issue for me before. I’m feeling a lot of stress and anxiety about keeping on top of my own projects, having a heavier meeting schedule, plus needing to plan/approve my team members’ projects. My team uses Trello, which has been useful for big picture stuff, but I need more granular advice about how to plan my days.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      The biggest issue I see from managers is that their schedule is packed with meetings and they have to fit in everything else around the meetings. If that’s the case for you, my advice would be to time yourself doing various tasks so you know how long they take and can figure out where to fit them in your schedule.

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      It sounds like you have kept all of the tasks you had as an individual contributor and just added management on top, but you should probably look into delegating non-management tasks. Are all of your projects things that only you can do, or can you reassign them, or parts of them, to someone else? Do you need to personally attend all of those meetings or can you send one of your reports instead who can summarize pertinent details?

  132. Nervous Accountant*

    It’s been such a crappy week in a million ways. Can’t wait for Monday. Here’s to a new, better week.

    1. Icontroltherobots*

      I’m having a crappy week too. I got a “promotion” that doesn’t come with a title change or more money. They just feel they can squeeze more work out of me everyday.

      My new “boss” has also decided that my “soft skills” need a tune up in my “new role” and he’s going to fix me. So far, this included suggestions from books he hasn’t read and the LITERAL tone of my voice. My good morning needs to hit a certain octave of sing-song happiness to be acceptable.

      But he’s no fartzilla

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Lmfaoooooooo

        I went for drinks w some coworkers including the one who’s been a little hurtful lately. Dunno if it was the alcohol or the vent session but I’m in such a better mood.

        1. Icontroltherobots*

          I’m glad to here that – accountants that try to be good managers are an extremely rare breed.

  133. Living Vicariously*

    I’m about to start a new job (whoo!) which will be four days a week and I will be freelancing for the rest of the time. My freelance clients are likely to be existing clients who will follow me from my firm, which is closing next week. This is my first time freelancing while balancing a job. Does anyone have any tips/recommendations?

    Thanks!
    S

    1. Lemon Danish*

      Be really clear about when you’re available and don’t try to answer emails from freelance clients while you’re working.

  134. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

    I commented last week about my coworker who is, well, just not coworking, to be completely honest. I am really busy. And it’s not doing my morale any good watching him surf Facebook on his phone while I feel like I’m playing Whack-A-Mole with a foam hammer. I truly think he’s figured out that (1) he’s not going to get fired and (2) he can just sit and do as little as possible for the foreseeable future.

    Earlier this week, I was trying to finish an email, my phone was ringing, and he actually walked over to me, showed me his phone screen, and said “look at my friend’s cat! he knocked over a plant”. I was like, oh, that’s cute, gotta grab this call…seriously, I am nearing the limits to my patience.

    Thanks for letting me vent. Ugh. And yes, have talked to managers…no, he isn’t supposed to help me. I wonder what they would do if we all pulled this?

    1. LDP*

      My boss sounds a lot like your coworker. Most recently, while I was trying to finish all the copy for all the website content that needed to get done, she called me into her office to listen to a Pussycat Dolls song that she had had stuck in her head. I don’t have any advice, just lots of sympathy!

    2. Friday afternoon fever*

      Be direct and polite and just totally cut him off. “Sorry, unless it’s work related I don’t have time.” (You’re not sorry, that’s just couching language. Replace as is comfortable for you.) Then rinse and repeat. “Look at my friend’s cat!” “Work-related?” …. “A cool article!” “Work-related?” The ultimate goal is not to change his root behavior, per se, but to re-frame yourself as Not A Fun Audience.

      Also, your coworker annoys me too.

  135. Incantanto*

    How do you job search with a 9-5 job? The company wants to interview me by phone at 3.40. Its very very hard to disappear from an office for half an hour for 3.40.

    Fed back to recruiting agent and said this. Asked for 12-2. Got told, 3.40 only. Aaargh.last time I did this I was more desperate for work, I clearly need to stand up for myself against recruiters.

    1. Not the Spiegs*

      Well that sucks. You need to make an excuse and get out of the office. Worst case even use part of a sick day, say you have an appointment? I have this problem, too and have been lucky enough to usually get something scheduled at the beginning or late afternoon so I can use the doctor’s appointment excuse.

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      I would deal with it by saying, “Okay, thanks, sorry we couldn’t make it work” if a company insists on a time that I can’t pull myself away from my desk. But then I’m not job hunting, and also recruiters in my niche of advertising are aware, for the most part, that candidates who are employed can’t always get away from their desk on short notice and almost always work in open offices with no privacy. I’ve never had a problem emailing a recruiter and asking to set up a time slot that works for both of us, although sometimes with the actual hiring manager, trying to get them to agree to an interview time that doesn’t require me to take a half or full day off is harder.

      YMMV if you’re desperate to get out, but I think it’s never a good sign if at the beginning they won’t budge on times for a phone screen. I get it if the hiring manager has limited availability; hiring for the new slot is one of many things she has to do. But phone screens are typically done by HR/recruiters. Finding and vetting candidates is ALL they do, or at least it’s a major portion of what they do, so they should be willing to plan their workdays around when candidates are most likely to be available!

      1. Incantanto*

        I’m not desperate, and its annoying me enough part of me wants to just go “piss off” Especially as culture is why I want to leave this one.

        It is the r and d manager, not a minion, but aargh.

  136. The Other CC*

    Celebrating small work related victories today.

    1) The baby I watch on occasion went down for morning nap no problem, so hopefully the rest of today will be nice and easy! She’s just so cute and I’d rather deal with diapers and separation anxiety than clients and vendors any day of the week.

    2) My boss found my replacement, which is a relief since I am really sick of working at the teapot shop and can’t wait to guilt-free slowly taper my hours there down to nothing. Only 14 more days of work there! I’m a bit concerned that I won’t have enough work to fill in that gap in my schedule in Sept/Oct, but something always manages to come along.

  137. Bigintodogs*

    I’m feeling really depressed lately. I work from home, which was not AT ALL what I expected from my job (they said be prepared for 80% travel). My team is all overseas, which makes communication throughout the day difficult/impossible. I don’t like being home all day but we don’t really have our own office (we go to the office of the company that owns us). I also don’t have much work, so I don’t want to go to the office to do nothing.
    I’ve been applying a bit to new jobs, and one emailed me Wednesday saying we would set up a time to talk today, but then hasn’t responded. I’m just really frustrated. Thanks everyone for listening.

  138. Eva*

    Anybody have any advice in how to accept an apology at work? I’ve run into it a few times in the last six months and just had no idea what to do with it. And always over the in-house messaging service rather than face to face.

    In one case, the person was apologizing for a situation where they definitely crossed a line. And it was a pretty decent apology, no “I’m sorry you’re upset” but more “I’m sorry I did this” followed by mitigating reason/excuses-some valid, some not so much. I was satisfied in the moment, but I know the situation is going to come up again and honestly I’m not sure I believe at all that this isn’t going to happen all over again. So what I really want to say is “that’s nice for now, but we’ll wait and see.” Which doesn’t feel very professional.

    I feel like I probably messed up by not acknowledging these apologies when they happen, but I also have trouble dealing with anything except sincere apologies from my closest friends (because I can tell when they are sincere). So IDK, is there anything I could say that sort of acknowledges the message without sounding like I accept and forgive the situation? Especially when what I know of a person indicates they’re just going to do it again?

    1. Alice*

      You could acknowledge it by saying “thank you for apologizing.” You can understand it as acknowledgement; they will probably understand that as forgiveness, but you can’t control what other people think.
      Good luck.

    2. AK*

      If it’s not something you’re seeing over and over again from the same person, I’d say give the person the benefit of the doubt and just go with “I appreciate it, thanks for the info” or something like that. People make mistakes, and it doesn’t usually help relationships if they feel like you’re just waiting for them to mess up again. That doesn’t sound like the case with the one person you mentioned, but for general apologies you don’t have to be particularly effusive.

      It’s a little more difficult to say with your example person without more information. The apology’s already been given so there’s really nothing else to say about it now, I’d focus on how to avoid a repeat scenario moving forward if you’re sure it’s going to happen. If the situation does happen again, is this something that happened over time that you might be able to catch earlier? “Hey remember how this project turned out, what can be done to make sure this one is more successful” could help try and avoid it before the same thing happens. Or, is it something that would need to be addressed with this person’s manager or possibly HR (it sounds like it could have been a personal line that was crossed rather than strictly work related, sorry if that’s way off base!)? “Hey, these two projects have fallen behind due to delays on Fergus’ side, he acknowledged them last time but there seems to be an issue, would you be able to help?” might get a manager on your side if needed.

  139. Lalaith*

    Recruiters… they drive me up a wall sometimes! Yesterday I applied for a job, and shortly afterward someone from the company emailed me to set up a phone interview. I said I could be available any time today. So with no further confirmation, they call me at 10:30am. Twice. And didn’t leave a message. *After* that, they email to ask when a good time would be. I ask if 11:30 would work. They say how about 12:00 instead since they have a meeting. I confirm that 12:00 is fine. My phone rings again at 11:36… when I still can’t answer because I was expecting a call at 12… and it is now 12:20 and they haven’t called again. What is with these people??

  140. Not the Spiegs*

    Question for everyone: I have been job hunting on and off for 2 years. I have a terrible boss – assume it’s bad and I need to leave for my sanity. I work in a 2-person development office (me and the director of the dept) of a small non-profit and we have 1 major fundraising event a year that is held outdoors in August. This year’s event was postponed due to rain and rescheduled for October! I worked weeks of 12 hour days PLUS weekends for this. And now I have to do it all over again because the date change is affecting many things so for practical purposes it’s nearly starting from scratch.

    Since the event was cancelled I have been going hard on looking for another job and may have an offer coming. The job is supposed to start the Monday AFTER the rescheduled event date in October. Technically I could work it and be a good team player. But I don’t want to. My boss was unforgivably horrible the weekend prior to the original date. I can’t event get into it.

    If I get this offer, how bad would it be to time it so I leave prior to the rescheduled date? I am the person tracking and producing every single list, spreadsheet, brochure, donation, database entry, EVERYTHING. She is hands on with nothing. Full stop. I already put my life on hold for the entire spring and summer so I wouldn’t screw them.

    What do you think?

    1. Beatrice*

      I think giving them two weeks’ notice is sufficient. You can’t put your life on hold for a job, you have to do what’s best for you. If you get the offer, give your notice and get your stuff in the best shape you can before you go. People leaving at inconvenient times is part of business life. They may struggle, but they’ll be fine, and if they’re not, that’s not on you.

    2. Temperance*

      Wait until you get an offer, and then put in your notice. You don’t need to stay late for this event.

    3. OhGee*

      It’s not the classiest move to leave the day before an event, but you seem set on doing that. I do fundraising and event work, and I can see both sides of this. Having an event rescheduled by three months due to rain is…awful. It really does mean you have to repeat lots of work. And you sound very, very unhappy, so if you get the offer in time to give two weeks notice and be out before the event, you should probably do that.

      That said, the work you leave behind *will* be dumped on somebody else. I had a teammate leave 10 days before a huge annual event…and they left without completing lots of work they should’ve been taking care of in the preceding two months. This person really screwed us, and while I understood their reasons (they finally broke after a really awful situation with a coworker who had been fired and found ways to continue to harass them anyway), me and my colleagues had to scramble really hard in the days before a very demanding multi-day event — and that pretty much led to me starting to want to leave my job, too.

      So I’d say, yes, get the heck out of there before the event — but do everything you can to leave things neat and tidy so you can walk out with your head held high.

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      If your boss is bad enough that you need to leave for your sanity, she probably won’t give you a good reference later in life even if you do stay through the event. I say you owe her nothing beyond a standard two weeks’ notice. If she needs you that badly, she should have had some kind of contract with you (with an incentive on your side!) not to leave at crunch time.

    5. BRR*

      I’m torn. On one hand it’s not great but on the other, people leave. How bad do you need a reference from this job? Because if you leave you might not get one.

    6. Jerry Vandesic*

      Give two weeks notice, but those two weeks are allowed to end any time you want them to, including (well) before the event. Put the old job out of your mind, and take some time to catch your breath before you start your new job.

  141. Overeducated*

    How much time do you devote to professional development on the job? My job duties are truly full-time, but my employer also gives both lip-service and actual resources to professional development – we have to do yearly individual development plans, and we have access to lots of web training resources and can apply for (non-guaranteed) funds for in-person training and conferences and such. People tend to move around to move up within the organization, as individual positions have strict ceilings, and I want and have managerial support to prepare myself for future career moves by getting more exposure to functions that may not be a large part of my current job…but I’m just not sure what’s fair and reasonable in terms of time management. How do others handle this? Do you fit it in weekly? Monthly? Daily?

  142. mcr-red*

    So I interviewed for a job about 3 weeks ago. The job description was everything I do, and I came prepared to talk about my experience, thoughts on how I’d do things in the position, etc. I was completely thrown when after asking a few things about that, they suddenly asked, “We want to totally re-design our website, and want this position to do it. What’s your experience with web design?” I have done minimum work in web design, think writing, taking pictures for, uploading those, etc., but nothing design-wise and told them so. The interview seemed to quickly end after that. I went back and looked again at the job listing – NOTHING is mentioned about web design. What just happened?

    They told me they’d be looking to make an offer “Within the next couple of weeks” but I never have received any call back or email, so I’m thinking it’s a no go.

    1. It's not you, it's them*

      It’s not you, it sounds like they suddenly wanted a “graphic designer” out of the same role that you applied for while in the interviewing process. If they are not able to clearly communicate their needs via a job post, what else aren’t they telling you?

      1. mcr-red*

        Thanks! A friend wondered if they had someone in-house they were wanting to hire and just going through the motions of interviews. “Oh her? Yeah, she had no web design experience, so we couldn’t hire her.”

        I’m already working a job where they regularly add more to your job description because they don’t want to hire anyone, and I swear we are days away from being told to handle janitorial work. I’m feeling like that place may have been more of the same.

  143. OhGee*

    Any fundraising people out there who have had a skills test as part of their interview? In a few days, I have an extensive in-person interview for a job I really want, and it includes a skills test. I feel confident about two parts (proofreading and writing) but there’s also a data exercise. There’s a heavy emphasis on using data to drive messaging for this role (which is part of what appeals to me!) but I’m coming from a small shop and am largely self-taught in fundraising-related data analysis — I’ve been caught off guard before interviewing for a bigger, much more formal fundraising department in the past, because the interviewer had so many specific questions about fundraising data, and I want to feel really prepared for this test and the multiple conversations I’ll have as part of the interview. Yes, I’m an AFP member, so I’ll be spending time with their online resources before the interview. I’d love to hear what your skills test experiences have been like, particularly if they involve a fundraising data exercise.

    1. Not the Spiegs*

      Never. I’ve been asked very specific questions about how I would structure programs, asked to give examples of how I have handled specific scenarios, etc. but nothing like a formal test that seems to be what you’re talking about. Good luck!

      1. OhGee*

        Thank you! They have a pretty big chunk of time set aside for the test. I suppose I could ask for more details, but I think I’m just going to come prepared based on the information I got in my phone interview (they did a good job of outlining the data aspect of the job) and reviewing resources that are specific to the area of fundraising I’d be working in. It’s a title and pay increase, so I am trying to remember not to unnecessarily psych myself out in advance of this interview day.

    2. BRR*

      I knew a director of major gifts who would give MGO candidates a spreadsheet with (false) donor information and ask them to prioritize the donors.

  144. Nita*

    Whew, I finally squeezed in a mini-vacation this week! It was a stay-cation of three days, and much of it was ruined by unexpected work emergencies and unscheduled conference calls, but – I’m shocked at how much even those three piecemeal days have done for my mental health. I’m so much calmer at home, and life seems a lot less hopeless. So glad I insisted on taking the time off even though my family was… not exactly understanding why I’d use up vacation time on sitting at home.

    1. Havarti*

      Staycations are the best! I mean travel is nice and all but the older I get, the more the idea of chilling calmly at home in my jammies appeals to me.

      1. Nita*

        Thanks! I really hoped to go somewhere before that fell through, but it was nice to finally cross stuff off my to-do list, get a jump on my quilting project, and not have to deal with the commute.

  145. bookends*

    Does anyone have any advice on staying motivated when you’re burnt out and you’re the only one in your office?

    Some context: I work for a non-profit with several offices across the state. There are currently three positions total in my office, and two of them are open because two employees just quit. (There are a lot of frustrations with leadership that I won’t get into here, which have led to a lot of turnover and extra work for existing employees, thus my burnout.)

    I’ve been the only person in an office before, but that was when working on a political campaign where we were all in rural areas, so there was more of a focus on daily check-ins and staff google hangouts. This feels very different, though. At peak, when we had additional grants for some other programs in this office, we had 11 or 12 employees in this office, so watching that number dwindle over time has been kind of…depressing? It also doesn’t help that this is a big room full of empty cubicles (except mine) with no windows. My boss occasionally stops in, but I’m probably alone 80% of the time.

    All of this is making me feel really unfocused and unmotivated. I’m getting work done, but it’s not stellar work by any means. Any advice? I used to be so self-motivated when I was a student and doing campaign work, and I’m so ashamed to be dealing with this now.

    1. Havarti*

      Can you take breaks and go outside for some light and air? Can you take a vacation or at least just a few days off to rest and relax? That might help reset your brain. What are your plans long-term? Do you like the job? Are you overworked right now because the other two people left? Is your boss sympathetic? Can you try talking to them about it?

    2. Overeducated*

      Oof, that’s rough. I have hints of this feeling and my solution is to get out of my office on breaks, add stimulation, and schedule in ways to talk to people. If you’re the only one in an empty office, put on music or podcasts to help motivate you. Take walks or make plans to meet up with local friends or families during lunch. See if you can telework at all so you are in a more comfortable environment some of the time. Check in with your colleagues in other offices on Google hangouts. And yeah, if you’re burned out, try to take time off if possible. I hope you get company soon!

    3. What? Like it's hard?*

      I don’t have any actual advice since I ended up looking for a new job instead. Just wanted to say you’re not the only one.
      Even though I’m in a physical office of 20+ people, I’m the only one in my department and no one talks to me (unless it’s about work) because of our structure. My one and only partner in the department who’s in a different physical office has been away on medical leave since March. It is extremely lonely and my productivity has dropped to an all time low. I’m just counting down to my last day (9 left!).
      Hang in there!

  146. The Lady Amalthea*

    Headline: need advice/experience transferring experience with “soft skills” from one discrete industry into another.
    Longer story: The field I’m in at the time I entered it required anyone on my path to get a Masters degree, which required 3 years of graduate school, and obviously, extensive training in the field. Over the 11 years since I completed my Masters, that requirement has been modified so that now there are two ways to enter the field: the traditional one with the Masters, and a “local school” that offers once a weekend a month vocational training for 3 years. There is no educational requirement to join that program, as it does not result in an advanced degree. The purpose of allowing people to use the local school route is to ensure that people who either have other jobs or for some reason cannot go to graduate school can be trained to fill positions in places who could not afford to pay someone who needed to rely on their job as a primary source of income. When this has been discussed the assurance that no one from the Masters field would ever be competing with someone from the vocational school path has always been emphatically made, even though the allure of a vocational school attendee is undeniable (cheaper! Likely no need to pay for insurance or pension!).

    Well, of course the assurance came to nothing and I just found out that the person who got a job I had felt really good about was someone who had entered the profession using the vocational track. This was at a place that paid a fairly high salary and included other perks, so my assumption is that they will be making a lower salary than advertised, which they can afford to take because of a pension they have. Needless to say, I don’t think this will stop happening and want to look into possible other fields to enter, preferably without having to get another degree. My job involves a lot of soft skills: counseling, personnel and office management, writing, public speaking, fundraising, and outreach/representation. Anyone have any experience transferring skills like that from a non-profit setting into a for profit setting? Thanks in advance!

  147. not my circus, not my monkeys. mostly.*

    I had a phone interview yesterday for a position at a peer institution, but for a big step up in responsibility. My current situation is untenable for at least 25 reasons (not least of which is that my boss seems to think I’m invisible). I’m excited about this, though; it’s a great school, and I really liked the people I interviewed with. When they asked what my timeframe was, and I told them that I wasn’t committed to teaching in the spring yet, and my heart did a little leap (of SHEER JOY) at thinking about not being here in the spring. But I’m trying to be patient and open and not too hopeful until I hear back.

  148. pick a direction, any direction*

    I’ve been at my job for ~ 4 years now. Although I don’t have any plans to leave the company, I know that I will have to figure out what the “next step” is. I’ve been putting it off for 4 years because I don’t know and don’t want to think about it, but seeing others in my life either moving up or on has made me re-evaluate my current situation.

    Short version: Previous to this job, I worked in events. Not exactly a 9-5 industry and I was burnt out. I loved (and still love) the work but there was so much of it. I rarely left the office before 6PM. Although I lived at home with my parents at the time, I often cooked my own meals and by the time I came home from that job, the only thing I wanted to make was ramen. I never had time to exercise, except on weekends. It was not healthy and made me realize how much I NEED work/life balance. I still work in events on a part time/freelance basis and it’s so much better. (I have 9+ years in this industry in total, none in management if this helps)

    Currently, I work at a firm planning corporate trainings (MUCH more work/life balance and so so appreciated) but I need to figure out what direction to move my career in. I liked the work that I did in events but didn’t care for the hours or the workload.

    Is there a career/job path that I can move towards with these same logistics coordinating/event planning elements with better hours? Does “planning corporate trainings at an HR dept of a marketing firm” or something similar even exist?

    1. LDP*

      You might want to look into working for mall marketing! We have lots of events, but we’ve only really had to stay late on the actual night of the event. Might be something to look into!

      1. OP for this question*

        Thank you! I hadn’t thought of mall marketing as an option. That does seem like something I might enjoy.

        I had asked about “planning corporate trainings” since it’s similar to what I do. I saw on Facebook, this one company had a management training that was several days long and included things like yoga outdoors, presentations, dinners etc and I immediately thought “damn I would’ve loved to help put THAT together, it looks awesome!”

    2. Holly*

      If you left around 6 on a daily basis I would be very surprised to see that described as not enough work/life balance (as an attorney I’m aware that would be a real luxury). Is it possible you need to recalibrate your expectations? If you’re not interested in working after 5pm at all, I would consider that something that is a dealbreaker for you. Honestly, 6pm to me is like yay so much work life balance!!

      1. OP for this question*

        Sorry, I meant to phrase it as “I rarely left at 6pm, the office hours were from 9-6 but I generally had so much work to do I left well after everyone else.”

        I also answered emails and were sent emails from bosses and clients after I had left for the day (think 9 or 10pm and sometimes even weekends) so even if I wasn’t there, it felt like a 24/7 thing. I would be happy if my workload actually did allow me to leave on time at 6PM.

  149. RL*

    What is the best way to structure two positions on a resume where my responsibilities were the same, except the second one also including managing someone else? Do you break these out separately or just have the first bullet explaining what happened?

    I’ve been at the company for a while and progressed from analyst to sr analyst to manager to sr manager. The Sr Analyst and Manager role we’re effectively the same, other than direct reports for the managing role.

    Thanks!

    1. AK*

      I’ve had a similar path at my company, how mine looks (with your titles for reference). I’ve got 1-2 points for the junior titles and then a few more for the senior titles with a note that they were specific to the senior role. I’ve also seen resumes that break out each role with bullet points for each beneath them, I only chose this way for the reason you mentioned that responsibilities were pretty similar but there were additions at the senior level-

      COMPANY
      Senior Manager (2018- present)
      Manager (2016-2018)
      – manager things
      – as senior manager, more important things
      Senior Analyst (2014-2016)
      Analyst (2012-2014)
      -analyst things
      -as senior analyst, more important things

      1. RL*

        Thanks – I was thinking of something like this, but wasn’t sure if there was a better way to highlight the “more important things” part instead of having to push that to the bottom of the list.

        1. AK*

          You could put the more important things at the top of the list! It would probably make more sense to do it that way since that’s the order I’ve listed the jobs in. then maybe have this:
          Senior Manager (2018- present)
          Manager (2016-2018)
          – as senior manager, most important things
          – manager things, possibly with a note about what changed as a senior manager if it works in your favor:
          – managed 1.5 billion in revenue 2016-2018, 2.5 in 2018
          – directed 20 programs as manager, 40 as senior manager

  150. RR*

    I recently posted a position on Indeed. In the description it says in bold that interested candidates should send a cover letter, resume, and writing sample to (my email). So far lots of folks are applying through Indeed rather than emailing me. That doesn’t bother me, but they only include their resume. Does Indeed not allow people to include cover letters and/or writing samples? Or does Indeed just attract a whole lot of people who can’t follow directions?

    Thanks!

    2. SarahKay*

      Heartless point of view: you told them to email you and they didn’t, so it’s safe to assume that Indeed does attract people who can’t follow directions.

    3. Holly*

      Sounds to me more like not following directions – if there’s only one document slot, I would put my cover letter, resume, and writing sample, all in one document.

    5. Anonymosity*

      When I apply on there, it has a space to post the text of a cover letter. I’m usually logged in, however; I don’t know it that makes a difference. If I can’t upload one separately on a website, I just make one document with my cover followed by the resume.

    6. Book Badger*

      It allows you to write a cover letter (in a box – you can’t attach it), but you can’t attach writing samples or include them in any way.

      Can you reformat the posting so that they CAN’T apply through Indeed? I’ve only done this on the job-seeking end, but many jobs I’ve seen force you to click “apply on company site” or what have you that redirects you to the company’s website, where the exact same parameters (including email) are posted.

  151. JustaTech*

    Is there any way to ask HR for the parental leave policy (for some reason it’s not in any of the documentation I can find, though I know I read it earlier this year) without HR thinking that I’m planning on having kids in the immediate future?

    Or is this just one of those things?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Can you ask for just a comprehensive list of all of their policies? That would hopefully include parental leave…

    2. Holly*

      You should first check if there’s any sort employee handbook available like say on an internal webpage or floating around the office. Also, if you work in a normal place, I don’t think any assumptions would be made.

  152. char*

    Is it possible to ask to be demoted?

    See, right now I’m a lead, and I kind of hate it? I find supervising people to be extremely stressful. When I’m at my best, I’m okay at it, but once any other stresses start affecting me, my ability to delegate seems to be the first thing to go and my team ends up floundering since I don’t give them enough direction. I don’t think this is good for anyone.

    I’ve felt this way for a while, and honestly I’ve been sticking it out mainly just because I didn’t want to lose face, plus I wanted to give it a fair shot in the hopes that it might get easier for me in time. And it has gotten a little easier… but not enough, and I still deeply dislike this aspect of my job. And right now I’ve gotten to the point where I’m beyond caring about face – this situation is untenable for me, and I think that long-term, I need to not have to supervise people, or else I’ll burn out. Scratch that, I AM burning out, and I want the flames to stop.

    I used to love my job, and I still enjoy all the aspects of it that don’t have to do with supervising people. I wish I could just go back to what I was doing before I became a lead, even if that means they have to cut my salary. How do I bring this up? Is this even an okay thing to ask for?

    (Also, a caveat: I’m going through some other stresses in my personal life right now that might be coloring my feelings about this. But at the same time, I’m not sure that it’s a great idea to have a job that I can only really handle when I have absolutely no outside stresses in my life. I haven’t had the energy to do much outside of work for a long time, and now that I HAVE to take care of personal things, it’s all falling apart.)

    1. NicoleK*

      It is possible to ask to be demoted. I had a colleague apply for and was promoted to be a supervisor. After some time in the position, she asked to return to the individual contributor role. Her request was accommodated. However, if there is no role available for you, you may be let go.

      1. char*

        Thank you!

        And, I didn’t even apply or ask for this lead role, I just somehow kind of ended up in it because I kept getting more duties added to my plate when they saw that I was really good at what I do, and then they upgraded my title and salary afterward.

        I’m less worried that there’s no individual contributor role available for me (we’re growing a lot and always hiring more people for that role), and more worried that there’s no one available to take on the lead duties I’m doing right now.

        1. char*

          And actually, now that I think about it, my job title still actually doesn’t mark me as a lead. I and a few other “Sr. Teapot Analysts” are grouped in with and treated as “Teapot Leads” (a higher title), but technically that’s not my job title yet. I’m also pretty sure that most of the actual Teapot Leads make significantly more than I do…

          The company is reworking job titles and responsibilities to help clear up ambiguities like this (and it’s been stated that I will officially be a lead then), but that process isn’t quite complete yet.

          Sorry for going on about this, turns out I’m more bitter than I realized about the fact that I never asked for this, and in fact outright stated multiple times that I’m bad at supervising people and didn’t want to do it, and yet here I am anyway.

          1. NicoleK*

            You didn’t ask for it but it was a learning experience and hopefully you got a pay increase out of it. Not everyone is cut out to be a manager, supervisor, or team lead. Now you know that it’s not something you enjoy. And honestly, the interpersonal relationships are the most challenging part of a being a leader especially if you went from peer to leader. Also, how much support, training, and mentoring was provided to you after you were promoted? Often companies will promote someone into a leadership role, but won’t provide them with a good foundation to start with.

    2. Nita*

      I get where you’re coming from! I’m thinking that you may have an opening if your job is short on people to supervise. Then you may offer to go back to filling that role – not right away, but once a new supervisor is hired.

  153. Sammytwo*

    Short version: I am nice and play well with others, but bring no value whatsoever to our division.

    Long version:
    I received my annual review a couple of weeks ago. We are not asked to provide input on our review (even though it asks for it on the form), we just sit and listen to what boss has to tell us. We can, however, add an addendum, which I did stating my accomplishments for the past year and goals for the upcoming year. I received “satisfactory” for the second year in a row with three xxx’s for emphasis. (I don’t know why he doesn’t just put one “x” in whatever category you are in. The other categories above this are “strong and positive” and “extraordinary”). I’m the only one in my entire division that he supervises who received a satisfactory rating. I know this because I’m the EA to my boss and I get to make copies of all of the signed reviews to give back to the employees. All of the other employees received four or five x’s in the “strong and positive” category. I asked my boss for no surprises on my review, but he listed a bunch of specific projects that I should be doing (90% of which were never mentioned before my review, but I had asked him for more projects a week or so prior to my review, so it was probably top of mind for him at that point). No lie, my review basically says I’m a really nice person and play well with others, but I bring absolutely no value to him or the department. So it’s been a super fun couple of weeks since then, sigh. And yes, I’m looking, but I’m trying to stay within my organization because we get really good benefits, etc.

    1. Chaordic One*

      Well this is very disappointing. Not mentioning the projects until your review was kind of jerk move on your boss’s part. When you have a boss like this (although you really shouldn’t have to) you need to nag him and remind him to get work and projects and you also need to meet with him regularly and keep him up-to-date with what you’re doing.

      I certainly wouldn’t agree that that you bring no value to him or the department. I’m not sure what all your job entails. You seem to imply that doing the EA work is less important that your work with projects, but even the EA work brings value to him and the department, although he doesn’t seem to realize that which is sad.

      Yes, certainly look at other departments within the company and keep your eyes open for things outside of your company. You never know.

  154. Tired*

    I’m a young woman who’s new to the professional world. I wear dresses to work every day for several reasons. A couple of weeks ago, we had an event where we were told we could wear jeans. I wore a more casual dress. My boss asked why I wasn’t wearing jeans and I told her, “I don’t own jeans,” which is true. She then asked why I don’t wear jeans and I replied that I don’t like them. The real reason is that I haven’t been able to wear them after my sexual trauma in college (not something I will disclose with a colleague at work). The problem: for the past two weeks, my boss has not stopped asking me about my lack of jeans!! I’ve tried the, “Why are you so concerned about my clothing choices?” approach and the, “I’ve answered your question, why do you keep asking?” approach. Is there anything else I can do to make the questions stop?

    2. Michaela*

      Escalate to “I answered you before. Stop asking.”

      The word “stop” or “no” apparently needs to be explicit with this person, and I’m sorry they’re being a jerk about it.

      2. CM*

        I would do this. I know it’s a boss, but this is weird and I think Tired needs to shut it down.
        I’d probably say, “Please stop asking me about jeans. It’s starting to make me uncomfortable. Let’s talk about something else.”

    3. El*

      Can you say “You seem very concerned about me owning jeans. Is that a requirement to work at this company? I was never told that I must wear jeans to work. I am more comfortable wearing dresses and appreciate the ability to pick and choose what I’d like to wear. Thanks for your suggestions on me wearing jeans but for now I will stick to dresses!”

    4. Murphy*

      That’s really weird. I think you’re approaching it in the right way. You could go a little further and say “It’s really bizarre that you’re harping on this” but I can understand not wanting to do that.

      Do you wear pants ever (non-jeans pants)? I have a friend who just doesn’t wear pants. Not a religious thing, just a preference. She just wears skirts and dresses all the time because she finds them more comfortable. You can try saying that. You can try saying that jeans are hard to fit (they often are) and you’d rather not put in the effort because you don’t find them comfortable anyway. You shouldn’t have to make stuff up to get her to stop asking, but this would be really frustrating.

      1. Tired*

        I actually only own a couple of pairs of pants. For me, it’s just so much easier to put on a dress and be done. The two times I have worn pants to the office, my boss has made weird comments, which just increases how strange this all is.

        2. Dino*

          I’d definitely take one of the more direct responses given that she’s alarmingly concerned with all your wardrobe choices, apparently.

    5. Afiendishthingy*

      Ugh that’s some bullshit. I’m sorry. I had a coworker who frequently announced, unprompted, that she hated jeans because she found them so uncomfortable. Would that work? Or just say you find it too frustrating and soul crushing to find ones that fit and look good, so you’ve decided not to put yourself through that anymore?

      Failing any of that, tell her to stop asking. “You’ve asked me about this before. I don’t wear jeans because I don’t like them. Please stop asking me.” I know she’s your boss so maybe soften it a smidge, but it sounds like she’s not good at taking hints.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t have a sexual trauma related to jeans, but I also have had colleagues surprised that I don’t own a pair of jeans. You can co-opt my reason if you want—I simply don’t like jeans.
      “I don’t own a pair of jeans.”
      “You don’t own a pair of jeans? Why?!!!”
      “I don’t like jeans.”

      That’s it. You don’t have to explain it’s related to sexual trauma. Just say you don’t like them. For me, it’s the texture of denim I don’t like. You don’t have to explain why you don’t like them. You don’t.

      1. E*

        “What’s your weird hang up about thinking everyone needs jeans? Personal preference, I don’t like them.”

    7. Four lights*

      I didn’t wear jeans for years because they were too cold when I put them on in the morning.

      You could try just staring blankly with a look of “Why are you asking me this again? You’re weird.” Or do that, then ignore what Boss said and go on to “I’m sorry, did you want to ask me about [work thing]”

    8. The Person from the Resume*

      I’m sorry you’re experiencing weird invasiveness toward something connected to a past trauma – because it’s weird and invasive.

      I live in the deep south. I don’t wear jeans in the height of summer because they’re extra hot. I prefer pants to skirts and dresses so I just wear pants of other material. Honestly though jeans are generally less comfortable (at least new) than many other materials. I have no idea why they’ve become the defacto most comfortable pants that are not stretchy athletic wear.

      1. Tired*

        That’s the other thing: it’s been over 100 degrees here for the past several weeks. A casual dress is WAAAAY cooler than a pair of jeans and dress shirt would be.

    9. Sue No-Name*

      a coworker of mine just yesterday told me they do not wear jeans and while it was interesting/unusual, we accepted it as an individual choice/quirk. it is possible to be reasonable about this thing and your boss is not doing it.

    10. LGC*

      I’m surprised no one suggested wearing a denim dress! But then again, that might be too passive aggressive. (And plus, it might not be something you’d want to do anyway.)

      Okay but seriously – first of all, I’m really sorry to hear that you had to go through that. (Truth be told, I was not expecting things to go in that direction from the first few lines.) You’ve handled it appropriately so far – I mean, you told your boss WHY you don’t wear jeans! (You don’t like them. You don’t owe her the reason why you don’t like them.) And I think you definitely can be more firm – like, “Hey, it’s my preference, please don’t ask again.”

      I’m more preferential to the other scripts about saying you feel more comfortable in dresses – partly because it lets your boss save a bit of face. I’m trying to see things from your boss’s perspective, and she just might be hung up on the strength of your preference. Which is…her problem, but I know I’ve had a couple of times where someone has said they don’t do $usualthing (like, my team lead doesn’t drink hot tea, which I found out when she got sick last winter and I offered to get her some for her voice), and it turned out it was really because of something else (in her case, she told me it was something personal that I’m not going to repeat here). I think your boss might be thinking, “Hey, Tired is still dressed up on a dress down day, what’s up with that? She should relax like everyone else is doing!” And in her attempt to show concern, she’s running all over you.

      Or, she is being a jerk, but she might have started from a good place.

      1. Reba*

        Some people just can’t handle non-normative stuff and must fix it.* Additionally, if the Boss doesn’t know that much about you, this little thing is taking up a disproportionate amount of space in her mental file on you.

        I agree with others that you could gently point out that it’s becoming a pattern, it’s uncomfortable for you to have your clothing choices scrutinized so much, and could she please cool it.

        *my spouse doesn’t drink coffee. When people learn this, they never say, like, “ok” or “huh.” They immediately workshop ways that spouse could learn to like coffee — iced? latte? more milk? less milk? My spouse has no desire to drink coffee, and some blank looks and “no, really, I’m fine without” type responses help to move to another topic.

      2. Sophia Brooks*

        I have done this! In college we had a jeans/wild wild west day where I worked, and I wore a denim skirt. I think another time I wore a southwestern patterned skirt and a denim top.

        I just really don’t wear pants. They are are uncomfortable and don’t fit my body right and I don’t like how they look. I will occasionally wear leggings. People mention it to me, but usually only ina context where I AM wearing pants, and the comments are usually “I have never seen you wearing pants!”

        I had an old boss who rather annoyingly looked at you, squinted, and walked away when you asked her a question she didn’t want to answer. I don’t suggest doing this for actual work related matters, because it was hard, but I do her technique when anyone talks to me about my dressed, or the fact that I wear glasses, and keep a pair of sunglasses on top of my head all day.

    11. LCL*

      ‘I’m much more comfortable in a dress.’
      Those of us who live in jeans can have a hard time believing a dress is more comfortable, but it is all a matter of personal preference. Who can argue with what someone likes?

      1. Sophia Brooks*

        I like that it is a little secret. I am so comfortable every day at work with my dress, bra, bike shorts and scarf. Everyone thinks I look super professional and put together, and I feel like I am working in my pjs! I think the comfort in pants thing depends on body type (my waist is really high up under my boobs, and I feel like pants are killing me) and how much you can deal with your clothes touching you (pants touch me in too many places).

  155. Katie the Fed*

    Pregnant friend I were just debating this:

    Should you hide your pregnancy if you’re interviewing for jobs within your own organization?

    I’m of the opinion that yes you should. You don’t have to, but why introduce another factor to the decision if you don’t have to. She feels guilty about hiding it. Context: we’re both fairly senior and she’s looking for a pretty senior-level reassignment. I still think it’s ok – even a good idea – to hide it.

    2. Ender*

      Yes hide it. Why should she feel guilty? They aren’t legally allowed take it into account anyway. Two possibilities – either they will discriminate in which case hide it to protect yourself, or they won’t discriminate in which case hide it as s facour to the interviewers, so they don’t have to confuse themselves by second guessing all their decisions to make sure they aren’t unconsciously biased by it.

  156. Doxie Momma*

    Yes/No? Have you ever wished you had time to acclimate a shelter pet, potty train a puppy or take care of an ailing cat? “Company Is Offering ‘Fur-ternity Leave’ for New Pet Owners”

    A Minneapolis marketing company recently made tweaks to its employee benefits this summer, ranging from conventional to unusual: “fur-ternity leave,” or the ability to work from home for a week to welcome new dogs or cats. Vice president at the company, Nina Hale, who helped devise the new policy. “The idea of offering benefits that just help keep employees at the office, that’s over.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/20/us/furternity-leave-pet-owners.html

    1. Julianne (also a teacher)*

      I’m not sure what my macro-level opinion is about this, but having recently brought home a rescue dog, I am really, really thankful that I have this time before I go back to school to be with her and work on training.

    2. CM*

      That sounds great to me even though I’m not a pet person myself. It’s working from home, not vacation, so it doesn’t seem like a huge burden on the company or coworkers.

    3. AK*

      I’m of the opinion that as long as there’s no reason that you must be in an office (data security, clients come in, everything has to be done on paper, etc) that companies who require people to physically be in the office all the time are outdated. If I have the ability and have proven to my company that I can work productively from home, why shouldn’t there be a little flexibility when people need it? I think this is a great idea, especially to have it as a policy so it’s something people know they have the option for! I worked from home with my dog for almost a month because it was a particularly rough transition, if I hadn’t been able to things could have been a lot worse for both of us at the time.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would have loved a week to adjust when I adopted my dog. My schedule completely changed overnight and I found I needed a nap every day at 2pm for about two weeks. Had I been able to work from home, that might have helped us all adjust. He also had a lot of separation anxiety at first.

      I also just wanted to get home my buddy every day, but that wasn’t quite as difficult physically. :)

    5. Red Reader*

      I brought an 8 week old puppy home about three months after I started working from home. She spent most of her first year napping either in my lap or under my desk so I could pop her outside for a minute once every hour or two. She is now almost four years old, fifty pounds, and still shares the chair with me. (I have upgraded from a regular desk chair to a stuffed armchair, after she almost overturned my desk by wedging her butt under the edge of it. Now she mostly takes up 2/3 of the seat, though she still climbs into my lap during the winters.)

    6. Bluebell*

      Several years ago I took a week off and called it a “puppymoon.” I had lots of pto and it was a nice way to get the pup housebroken.

  157. Just Curious*

    I have a question about religious exemption. My Boss’s assistant is part of a religious group where their holy day is Saturday. We are normally a 9-5 type of business but once a quarter we work on Saturdays to reach a different type of population. (This is also really recent, only implemented about 4 or so months ago). My boss tried to force my coworker to come but she ended up going to the director, who told her she didn’t have to work that day. My boss was extremely angry about this and is badmouthing her assistant to anyone who will listen. She is insistent that because its not a every-Saturday thing that it is OK to make her work those days.

    In my opinion, the assistant really doesn’t need to be their on those days, In fact I think we were a little over staffed due to the insistent that everyone had to work on those Saturdays.

    So who is right? I feel like she is retaliating on her as well for going above her.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yes, this is illegal. If your employer has 15+ employees, it’s required by law to make this kind of religious accommodation as long as doing so wouldn’t cause undue hardship (which clearly it wouldn’t). It’s also required by law not to harass people for seeking a legally required accommodation. Your boss is engaged in illegal harassment and your company needs to shut it down.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That reasoning is so weird. “But it’s not every Saturday!” Well, the Sabbath– whichever day you observe– happens every week. Does the director know that your boss is treating her assistant this way?

  158. jack*

    I’m curious about something I’ve noticed about my co-workers and other people I email from work. I just went through some recent emails and about half of the people with email signatures end up having it look something like:

    Name
    Title
    Phone Number(s)
    Email Address

    Why add your email address to a signature for an EMAIL? Like, they’ve got your address by virtue of the fact that you’ve just sent them an email. Do other people do this too? Am I the weird one for not adding it?

    1. Murphy*

      I don’t do it, but it’s usually for emails that get forwarded. If the forwarding text gets deleted, you may not be able to find the email address of the original sender.

      I’m also on a listserv where the reply goes to the entire listserv and the sender’s email isn’t listed at all. It will show their name but the email address shows up at the listserv. Unless you put your email address in the email (which people often forget to do), the only way that people can reply is to send it to the whole listserv. It’s a weird case, but if people had their addresses in their signature, it might reduce some irrelevant messages.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Anywhere I’ve worked with standard signatures has required it. At least in part for the reason Murphy mentioned – if an email gets forwarded, someone may not have your email address.

      There are also people who print emails out.

      1. SarahKay*

        Agreed – my company has a standard signature template (font, colours, and content) and email is part of that template.

    3. I am who I am*

      Yup, I do this for when the email gets forwarded. Often only the display name shows in the header for the earlier messages in the string, so more than once I’ve received a query that’s been passed around, and had to phone the original sender to get their email address in order to send them the requested answer / document.

    4. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      We were required to at my last company. I don’t know why, but there was a standard email signature format that we all had to follow and that was part of it.

    5. Nora*

      We work with a lot of people from a government entity that shall remain nameless. If they include their colleagues on cc on the email to our office and then one of my staff forwards it to me, everyone’s names and email addresses from this government place diminish to just their names. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to work backwards through Googling and directories to try and figure out the email addresses of the other people that have to be on my reply.

      It may look stupid but it can be at times useful.

    6. LDP*

      My email signature has this, but company-wide all our signatures are exactly the same as our business cards, so if it’s like a graphic or image for a signature that might be part of it? That they didn’t want to pay to edit out the email portion of a business card? I have no idea if that’s the reason why mine is the way it is, but it’s a definite possibility!

    7. Twenty Points for the Copier*

      I much prefer when people have an email – I often want to copy/paste someone’s contact info wholesale from their signature so it’s an extra step and a half to have to get the email address from the sent field. (On our system, the “to” field almost always just shows a name rather than an email address.)

    8. Alex*

      I actually have found that really useful. Sometimes if the person is in your contacts, you have to dig a bit to get the actual email (because it will just show the name). It’s much easier to copy and paste from the email signature if you need the email address for some reason.

    9. acmx*

      I add mine because it’s not just first.last There are multiple people with my name so I have a number at the end.

      It helps when if you’re using the web version of outlook I think. Especially with outside orgs. If I want to add someone to a reply, it would be easier if I knew their email format. In chains, the recipients are just names and not emails.

    10. Ender*

      Email addresses won’t show up on the “from” field if you have the address saved in your contacts as something else. So I could have someone saved as “Jane” and in the “from” field and email from her will just say “Jane”. If I then forward her mail to someone else, they won’t see her email address.

  159. Anonymous Ampersand*

    Found out today I was successful in my interview for a job in my team but a grade higher. I’m so excited. Now gone up two grades in six months! I’ve never moved upwards with an organisation before. I’m so very pleased.

  160. Stranger than fiction*

    I’m not a people person!
    At least, that’s the lame excuse I was given when I finally decided to ask point blank why I continue to not be considered for a supervisory position of a department that I work closely with that lost their manager almost two years ago. This group has been passed around to three other managers that don’t have time to really manage them since.
    I was tasked with extensive research to do on behalf of this group, by the owner, to help improve our process, several months before that manager left. So silly me, I thought that was leading to something.
    When I pressed for more info on that assessment, I wasn’t given anything concrete. Just a vague comment that while they know I get along with everyone, I’m too direct in emails and sometimes ruffle people’s feathers, and that I’m not “political” enough. (I took that last bit as I’m not enough of an ass kisser?Also noteworthy, some employees (not all) were given a personality test about three years ago, that they were considering giving to prospective employees (at least that was the story) and I remember mine coming back as being more introverted than I previously had thought I was. Perhaps that’s just where my head was at the time. But I think that may have counted against me.
    Anyhow, just wanted to vent!

    2. AK*

      Without more context, I wouldn’t necessarily take the note about not being political enough as a note about ass kissing, but more about diplomacy. If you really are too direct in emails and ruffle feathers, that could be a disadvantage to you or your department if as a manager you need to get buy in from other departments or need to handle tense situations.

      Could you ask the owner (or whoever you spoke to about this before) if there’s anything else they would need to see from you in order to be considered for that position? You could go ahead and start working on more diplomatic emails, but if there’s something else that they’re looking for it might help you get a little more clarity on that track. If not then you might just need to find somewhere that will give you the growth opportunities you’re looking for.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        I truly get your point, but I’ve consulted with several coworkers that say the whole thing is bs and none of it is true from their perspective. Even the manager that left was cracking up when I told her. The place has a lot of dysfunction, and our sales are down because of it. I think it’s just all excuses they pulled out of their ass. Like maybe there was ONE email one time that didn’t sit right with someone (because it rang true).
        The funny thing is the upper management aren’t people people either!

  161. Ali G*

    I’m looking at job that is a non-profit, but this NP is directly tied to a large government agency (US). The job is a director level and reports to a VP. They list the “Grade” as a 6. A GS 6 is basically an entry level position (like $30-40k per year), right? Any ideas of what other “grade” they could be referring to? No salary range is listed.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      GS scale is only going to apply if it’s an actual government job – it sounds like this is not a government job. You should ask what they mean by it.

      FWIW Grade 6 is so junior I have never met one in real life. Our reallly junior newbies start at GS-07

      1. De Minimis*

        We had several grade 5s and a few 4s at my last federal job. They tended to work admin support/general office roles [jobs like medical billing clerk, supply clerk, etc.] I can’t remember if our department’s admin assistant was a 5 or a lower grade. I guess I could go online if I was truly curious.

        On the opposite end of the spectrum, I just started a federal contractor job, and it seems like almost everyone I work with is Grade 12. I think the difference is I’m working at a regional headquarters for the agency, and my previous job was in “the field” for lack of a better term.

      2. Ali G*

        Thank you! That makes sense. This must be some sort of internal grading (I thought perhaps since this org works specifically for a gov’t agency they had adopted the GS scale). I’ll see what I can dig up.

  162. AnonandAnon*

    Has anyone had to deal with a manager who asks questions without any context so you end up going back and forth because you don’t give them what they need initially due to the lack of context? When I ask for any context, she seems to get annoyed with me! It’s like I need to be a mind-reader on top of everything else!
    Very frustrating to deal/work with someone like that. But she and I are like oil and water.

    1. LDP*

      My boss is like this! She *hates* when I ask any sort of clarifying questions. I’ve just switched my own mental gears into realizing it’s better to have my boss talk to me condescendingly and be annoyed with me double checking details or asking for more context ahead of time rather than have her flip out on me when something isn’t done right because I didn’t triple check with her about what she wanted.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      I am that person! I frequently start conversations in the middle of a thought, and have to backtrack and give context as to what I’m actually talking about.

      I don’t know if you’re looking for advice, or just venting? If venting, vent away – I know it can be frustrating! But if you’re looking for advice, I would say the best way to handle it is honestly just to stop her and ask for the context. She’s probably aware that she does this, and most reasonable people won’t mind if you ask them to backtrack a bit.

      I’m guessing from your “oil and water” comment that you probably disagree on lots of things? If so, this may be one of those things that bugs you just because it’s coming from her, whereas if you were talking to someone else who did it you may not even notice. Either way, this is not a battle I would pick – just do what you need to get the information in the moment, and try not to let it bug you too much. It’s not personal to you – it’s just the way her brain works sometimes. (Easier said than done, I know!)

    3. Ender*

      I had a client like that! I took to calling them after the request to discuss what then actually wanted to know, before responding.

  163. grumpy*

    I have a morning problem!
    Does anyone have advice for being more “personable” in the mornings?

    When I get to work, I find I need some time to adjust before I am ready to be bombarded with questions. When someone comes to me before say 8am, I have sometimes been unfriendly and want to improve. It specifically annoys me when I walk in the door and people think that their question is the most important/only thing I have to do at that moment.
    I have certain morning tasks that I need to complete prior to an 8am meeting.

    I think one suggestion would be to wake up earlier, but right now I am waking up 30 minutes before I leave for work simply because of my schedule. I work 11-12 hour days, then after my commute, I have only about 3 hours at home before I need to go to bed in order to get 7 hours of sleep before I have to get up and return. I can’t sacrifice any more sleep.

    Any ideas?

    1. LCL*

      Tell everyone that from here out, unless the place is on fire, you won’t be answering work questions before 7:45? because to give the best answer you need to brief yourself on what happened while you are gone. The ‘it’s not you, it’s me’ approach can work for this. ‘I want to give you the right answer and not waste any of your time. If I answer before I know what is happening, you might have to re-do or change something you have already done.’

    2. uranus wars*

      I don’t think you have a morning problem. I think you have a too long of workday problem. And potentially a co-worker problem if they are jumping on you as soon as you get in the door. You might be able to train them out of that, I did it once! You need to adjust their behavior, not yours. (with the exception of the unfriendliness)

      – “I have an 8:00 meeting to prep for, can your thing wait?”
      – “Heya, I know you want you to discuss work but can I grab some coffee and talk with you in 10?”
      – “I really have to update my agenda items for the 8:00, can you email me your questions and I’ll get to them as soon as I can?” (ps. if you respond semi-quickly sometimes they’ll just start to email you!)

      Are these people who report to you? Would you be able to schedule a weekly one-on-one for questions that aren’t time sensitive? that might cut down on your 11-12 hour days, too, if you aren’t constantly stopping to answer questions.

      good luck!

    3. CM*

      I agree with LCL and uranus wars. Change the people around you rather than changing yourself. Tell your coworkers that you need an adjustment period in the morning and ask that they not come talk to you until after 8. This will require a training period where you repeatedly remind people, “I need some time to adjust / prep for my morning meeting. Can you come back to me after 9?” But eventually people will get it. (If they don’t, get a mug that says in big letters “Don’t talk to me until I’ve finished my coffee!”)

    4. LQ*

      While it sounds like you do have a brutal day, if you want to change for this – or future – one of the best things to do is aim for self deprecating sense of humor. The “don’t talk to me until I’ve had coffee” with a laugh is a good one. (I don’t even drink coffee but it’s sort of a pleasant way of saying “just give me a damn minute.”) If the bombard is on your way to your desk pause for 3 minutes outside the building/in your car/whatever to put on your work hat. Just taking a couple minutes can be a big deal. For me it’s my walk into work is walking toward being Work Me, I put on my badge, when I’m in the building I take out my ear buds and by that point I’ve sort of moved into Work Mode. (And then also important is to move out of work mode at the end of the day.)

      But yeah, 12 hour days is really rough.

    5. Nora*

      Hi grumpy :) I am sorry to hear what you’re going through. I am the exact opposite – I’m great in the morning but once I get into the last hour / half-hour of work, my brain is fried.

      I hear you, though, b/c no one really likes to get bombarded with questions when they aren’t prepared. I once brought this up as a complaint to my therapist and her response was, “you’re going to have to deal with it. She’s your boss.”

      If you can prioritize and you are in an office where the culture thinks this is okay (i.e., you’ve seen others do it), push off everything that is unimportant until after you’ve had your meeting.

      Can I ask, are you an admin? I’d die if I had 8 AM meetings every morning.

  164. leaving*

    I am about to leave a job where I’m supervising people. During my last week, I’m going to have a final one-on-one conversation with each of them. What should I ask them?

    1. Nora*

      I would say it depends on your comfort level at receiving criticism. If you can handle it and you have a good relationship with the staff who reported to you, ask for constructive criticism if you think you will get some. It will also make your staff feel good because many a complaint from staff is that their opinion means nothing or they are asked for it. You may get some good comments on how to do better at your next job or at the very least, some food for thought for your future career.

      If, however, you don’t have a good working relationship with them, I would keep it basic and brief, if you have a conversation with them at all. You never know if you will be asked to provide feedback to higher-ups and whether you will see these people (or your supervisors) again.

      In either case, be prepared to get the question, “why are you leaving us?” and have a diplomatic response prepared. I wish bosses who left organizations I’ve worked for gave us the opportunity to have one-on-ones like this. Otherwise, it’s like the boss left in a puff of smoke and only gossip spreads on why they left and if they were pushed out.

      2. leaving*

        Thanks! I do have a good working relationship with them, so I may ask for their feedback. I won’t be a supervisor in my next position, but I’m sure they’ll have something valuable to tell me.

      1. leaving*

        That’s a really good question – I’ll ask that and pass along the information for my boss (their grandboss and interim boss) to make sure they weather the transition as well as possible.

  165. miyeritari*

    my weeklong vacation starts after today. trying SO hard not to start anything new AND look busy…. AAM not helping…

  166. Nora*

    We’re about to get a new boss. For reference, she’s female.

    I am single and am without kids by choice. I have several colleagues and subordinates who are married and/or have children. I’ve watched over the years how they get preferential treatment when it comes to coverage and leave over those of us who are single. (I work in a mostly female office.)

    If I am asked by the new boss if I have children, is there a constructive way I can respond that conveys my hope for fairness?

    I really hope things change under new leadership.

    1. CM*

      I wouldn’t go looking for trouble here. I would just answer “No” and not assume she’s going to treat you differently. If you see that you are being treated differently, bring that up in a separate conversation and say, “I’d like us all to be treated the same regardless of our family situation.”

      1. Nora*

        Thanks, CM. I don’t have much of a poker face so I guess I’m going to have to smile when I say it and not give away anything else.

        I know you’re not allowed to ask marital or child status at interviews. I once had this turned on me: the woman was interviewing asked me if I was married or had children. I was so taken aback, I’m sure the look on my face gave away the fact that I was unprepared for the questions.

        1. Merida Ann*

          My understanding is that they are allowed to ask, they’re just not allowed to consider it when choosing who to hire, so smart employers will avoid asking to reduce any speculation that that was the “real reason” for not selecting someone.

    2. leaving*

      Yikes, this is tricky. I’d wait until later once you’ve established a rapport with her, and ask for leave/coverage if you don’t notice a change – e.g. “I seem to be stuck covering [x] all the time; would it be possible for there to be more equity?”

      1. Nora*

        At the moment, I am more than a bit peeved that some people get time off whenever they ask and then others of us (myself included) are often denied or required to scale back our plans in the interest of covering for someone else. This has happened for a while; as the newest member of the team who has been around for a while, I did voice this to my last boss (who is being replaced) but he ignored me.

        It’s the way the org has operated, so it should be interesting what if this breath of fresh air with the new person helps the situation. I am trying to stay positive but I’m not holding my breath, either.

        My brother was in a similar situation and he was often asked to be cover for holidays or work late b/c he was the only nonmarried male in a tech office. His solution was to get a dog so he had to be home on time to let the dog out. I’m not prepared to go that far :)

        1. CM*

          If this manager seems to be open to feedback when she first starts, especially if you have a 1-on-1, maybe you could bring this up then. You could say something like, “One concern I have is that in the past, those of us without children have been asked to stay late and cover for coworkers with children. We all have personal lives, and I want to make sure we’re all being treated the same regardless of our family situation. I’m glad that you are here now and I’m hoping things will change.”

          2. Nora*

            Thanks for the suggestion. I have some PTSD from previous supervisors and not being supported. I don’t want to start crying to the new boss but I feel like I have been unfairly treated in the past and I’m hoping this new era won’t simply be a repeat of what has gone before.

            A weird thing about our department is that some of the coverage supplied is not necessarily reciprocated. That is, I am supposed to provide support for a position downstream of me and my staff’s work when this person takes time off, but she doesn’t cover for me when I’m out in the office. I guess this system was designed because the position has no peer or equivalent, and they’re concerned about having someone in a more senior position covering for her. Fair enough. But without reciprocation, there is no impetus on her part to be considerate when she arranges leave because I have to cover for her no matter what and there will never be any ill effect on her. One of my friends suggested I start keeping a separate paper calendar to note down how many times I’ve to cover for her and for what reasons so I’d have it in hand in case I had an opening to give feedback on her. I showed it up to my last manager, who just shrugged at me. He didn’t want to rock the boat.

            I’ve felt like I’ve been between a rock and a hard place with management because I do like my job and want to keep it and early on, I never wanted to be branded the troublemaker for kicking up a fuss. With a new manager, I hope it’s a fresh start and the manager can assess the situation objectively.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      She’s a new boss. There’s going to be a lot of adjustment for all of you. Right now, you have no information to tell you that she will treat you any differently. So for now, approach her as if she won’t ask you about children, and if she does, treat it like it’s just a small-talk question. “Do you have kids, Nora?” “Nope! How about you?” Or in my case, “Nope! Just my doggy.”

      In other words, don’t stack the deck against your boss– or against yourself– before she’s even started. For all you know, she might come in and declare off the bat that no one gets any flexibility… or that everyone does.

      1. Nora*

        Thanks for these thoughts. I think I need to practice how to respond to this. I often freeze up and my face usually gives the game away.

  167. burnoutcity*

    How are you all dealing with burnout and lack of vacation/sick time?! What advice do you have for someone desperate to make it through another year of their job but flagging in energy?

    The background: I started working two different jobs about a year ago. I split my time 60%/40%; I thought this would be easier for me than having a full-time job, because having a full time job feels like it eats my life away. In some ways it has been really good. But at the 60% job I get 2 weeks of vacation, and it is killing me. I took a week off for my wedding in June, which was a super stressful though joyful time, and am saving the rest to take some time off in November during Thanksgiving. This is the only way to take two consecutive weeks off. This time will be unpaid from my 40% job. I also get sick leave, which I was trying to save up to take off a week in the fall in order to start a new trial of antidepressants. I have struggled with depression for years, and haven’t been able to adhere to any medication because the side effects (sleep deprivation, etc) make it impossible for me to engage at work. It seems like the only way to get on medication is to take time off. This week my burnout and depression symptoms got so bad that I spent a night in the ER and was almost hospitalized. I came home and took the rest of the week off. Now I have no sick time left for my medication trial and am trying to figure out how to navigate work and leave. I am eligible for FMLA at the 60% job; I do feel some guilt around taking it because I have clients/families I work with who do depend on my presence. (I work in a public hospital in an allied health field). I know I need to get over the guilt but in general, I’m just looking for advice on dealing with burnout when time away from work is minimal. Thanks, AAM commenters!

    1. Nita*

      I’m sorry… If you’re eligible for FMLA, take it. It sounds like your job is pretty stressful, and it’s better if you’re there fewer hours but you’re at your best, than if you’re present but cannot think straight, or burn out so much you have to leave. And maybe consider going back to having one job? I’m only suggesting this because two jobs = two commutes. I’ve also coped by staying up late. Counter-productive, I know, because being sleep-deprived is not good for mental health either – but it gave me time for a couple of hobbies that kept me relatively sane on really bad days.

      1. Burnoutcity*

        It’s something I have in mind, but the 60% job is what I’m trained in and worked towards for many years. The 40% is less stressful, shorter commute, and in the near future will potentially pay more. I’m going to keep thinking about it though!

    2. Grace Less*

      It’s like they say on airplanes “put on your own oxygen mask, then help anyone near you who may need assistance.” You have to be well to help others; taking care of yourself is not selfish.

    3. Ender*

      Is there any way you could financially manage if you dropped the 40% job and jut kept the 60% one? You might save some money in Tax so you could end up with more than 60% of current income.

      You are going to end up having a breakdown and taking unpaid time off anyway from the sounds of it, so if you can figure out any way to live on a reduced income this would be the best option.

      I recently started new depression meds and the sleep deprivation was awful. My boss very kindly let me drop to 4 days a week on a temporary basis. If it wasn’t for that I’d be callig in sick all the time from just not being able to get out of bed due to exhaustion.

      1. Burnoutcity*

        It’s helpful to hear you had similar struggles with meds. I feel like doctors are just like “stick it out!” — and it’s tough because my life is way harder with sleep deprivation than with my usual depression symptoms (as a reasonably happy person whose depression is probably more a consequence of genetics than anything else). Dropping the 40% job is something I have been hesitant to do but I fantasize about it. I think maybe it took hitting a lower “bottom” to consider it more seriously. My husband and I are going to try to work out the financial implications of it. We expect the ER visit and all the other upcoming health care needs to be expensive… sort of ironic!!

        1. Ender*

          It’s awful isn’t it? The other day I brought the kids down to the Childminder at 8 (she comes to the house) and then fell back asleep. I set the alarm for 9 but when it went off I woke again and turned it off and fell straight back asleep without even really waking up. Woke properly at 9:30 and made it out of bed, but then had to lie down on the rug in the bedroom and couldn’t physically get up for 10 mins. Finally made it into work for about 10. My counsellor has told me to leave my phone downstairs at night so I couldn’t even call my boss (though if I’d had an important meeting or anything I would have yelled down to the Childminder to bring me up my phone).

          This week I tried to do 5 days and I think this incident proves I’m definitelynot ready to go back to 5 days a week.

    4. Ann*

      I was in that situation for a few years, and I have to say, two part time jobs is WAY harder and more stressful than one full time job.

      When I was in grad school, I worked two part times, plus was in school. One of my jobs had no vacation or sick leave. The other one had no sick leave, but two weeks vacation. Except I had to take 10 days off per year for my school program, so I had no vacation days left after that. So I just did not have a day off except for federal holidays for two years. So, I hear you. I was burned out too. And also struggle with depression and insomnia.

      You might just have to take unpaid time off, and try to budget for that. Also, I highly recommend having only one job. It is way easier not having to coordinate your life with two different employers.

  168. Dulcinea*

    Salary Q- I am applying for a job as a staff attorney at a large, nationally-recognized non-profit in Boston. I have been out of law school 7 years, and practicing at a different non-profit (in the very far flung suburbs) for five years. Anyone have any data points on what I can expect in terms of salary? Thanks!

    1. CM*

      Here are a few Boston-area lawyer salaries I know of for people with similar levels of experience:
      State government: $90K
      University: $130K
      In-house biotech: $140K
      In-house tech: $160K
      Biglaw: $250K+

      Off the top of my head, I’d probably be looking for around the $130K level but I don’t know anything about the nonprofit market.

      1. CM*

        P.S. – as a fellow Boston lawyer, I would love to hear any salary info you have from your research, if you’re willing to share that.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      What’s the organization’s budget? Have you looked up the 990 to see the salaries for senior leadership?

  169. LDN Layabout*

    Got some praise at my new job and I realised I’m still not quite at the point where I can fully believe that my new sector (moved from private industry to public sector) really isn’t just talking bullshit about how they care about people and their wellbeing.

    (I’m fully aware that not every public sector job is like that, but this place really seems to practise what they preach in terms of people and…my brain can’t quite grasp it)

  170. Erika22*

    I got an offer! I received it over the phone late Wednesday and after countering with a higher salary, didn’t hear back till Thursday afternoon (and they held firm on their salary). I asked if I could think about it and call them today, which she said was fine. I already knew I’d probably take it but wanted to confirm with my partner again that we’d make the salary work. So I call this morning and leave a voicemail… and hear nothing all day. I called again at 4:30 and got her voicemail again, but I didn’t leave a second message as not to sound to pushy. But I only just now realized it’s a holiday weekend here so I won’t get to try again till Tuesday, which makes me anxious and wish I had left a voicemail just saying I’d try Tuesday. Since what if they didn’t actually get my voicemail and think I don’t want the job? (I know that’s probably not the case and even if it was, calling Tuesday morning will be ok, but still.) Now I’ll just spend the weekend feeling anxious for really no reason! Yay!

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Do you have an email address? I’d follow up there.

      “Hi Boss,

      I left a voicemail earlier today but wanted to follow up by email to let you know that I’d like to accept the offer for the Program Manager role. I’m excited to work with you and looking forward to the next steps.

      Thanks,

      Erika22”

      1. Erika22*

        I don’t or I would. I can probably guess her email based on her name and company email patterns, but I don’t want to risk it.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          Piece of cake Erika22, just call the front desk and speak with the receptionist and say something to the effect of, “I need to email something critical to *insert manager name here* but I’ve unfortunately misplaced his/her email address, could you be so kind as to give it to me?” You could always see if they have their email address listed on LinkedIn. Good luck!

          1. BRR*

            Ooh I wouldn’t. Most receptionists wouldn’t give it out. I would try searching the email address in quotes and see if it comes up.

  171. Shishimai*

    I have a minor quandary. Warnings for mental health if that’s a thing we do here?

    There’s an underserved issue in my particular field of teapot-making. Some people (most people?) in this field will eventually run across a tea spill so horrific that it scars them. I don’t mean a bad day. We’ve had lives ruined, people who are doing good work dropping it and walking away. We’ve had a wave of high-profile suicides this year.

    There have been talks by a well-regarded person about this issue. I attended two of the three, and they both came down to bearing witness to some of the worst, with a vague handwave in the direction of “love and community will solve all this.” Now, I happen to agree, but we don’t need an exhortation to hold hands. We need concrete steps.

    For what it’s worth, I’m neither a first responder nor a medical professional, but I think we could probably learn from them. So.

    In your high-stress field, how do you-as-a-group handle stress? Or do you?

    1. Temperance*

      It’s sort of hard to give specific advice without knowing a ballpark area, but there was recently a high-profile death by suicide of someone in my industry (pro bono lawyer). We regularly take vicarious trauma trainings and other measures to keep ourselves healthy. Is that an option in your field?

      1. Shishimai*

        That’s a good idea, and exactly the sort of thing I’m looking for. Thank you.
        I already take pretty much constant trainings on technical teapot issues, so if I can assemble a list of free-to-inexpensive trainings, that’s something I can share with others. Do you have any recommendations? (And no worries if not – I can run a search engine.)

        The ballpark is information security. It doesn’t seem like something that would cause this response until you get into it – but when you’re dealing with large amounts of private data, things can get very personal, quickly.

        1. Temperance*

          My advice would be to check out child welfare orgs (and related nonprofits) in your area. The one I attended was through the Support Center for Child Advocates in Philadelphia, but I know that they are pretty widespread.

          I actually totally can understand exactly what you’re talking about, and I’m sorry.

          1. Shishimai*

            Ooooh. I will do that.
            Thanks again! It’s not an acute problem (for me, this instant) but it’s a rising tide in my industry. :(

        2. Shishimai*

          I realize that “free to inexpensive” may not be possible. It’s very common for people to write little blurbs about other topics and put them up for free, but I’m not sure that’s a treatment that would do mental health topics justice.

        3. Observer*

          IfoSec can get very nasty.

          Vicarious trauma training sounds good. Also, find out what Law enforcement uses – their special victims units people hit up on some pretty horrific stuff, and they’re dealing with the computer related stuff as well.

          Also, perhaps talk to Crash Override. (link to follow.) They are an advocacy group for people who are dealing with on line abuse. But, based on some of the issues they deal with, I’d be willing to bet that they may be aware of resources that might be useful to infosec professionals who need to deal with finding / stopping / cleaning up that kind of garbage.

    2. CM*

      When I worked with people who dealt with a lot of child abuse cases, pretty much everyone was in regular therapy, and if possible people would rotate jobs after a while to something less traumatic.

      1. Shishimai*

        Interesting. We don’t have so much rotation as a cycle of “hey this is cool,” “hey holy cats uncool” + burnout, permanent departure. I’ll make a note of it and look into how people handle dealing with child abuse and other … uh, psychologically active… cases, too.

        That’s worth looking into, and I’m hearing more and more advice for people to look into therapy (and not smarmy, “you need help” advice, but real, “this is a tool” advice.)

    3. Westcoast pastor*

      What you are talking about sounds like a combination of compassion fatigue and secondary trauma. When I worked for a large, multi-national relief and development non-profit we saw pretty awful stuff on a regular basis but sometimes it was just way, way worse and required special transitions and care. Honestly anyone coming back from a deployment was required to see a therapist first at least 3 times and get an all clear from them before returning to work. Yes it required a cost investment on the side of the company but it was vital and it stopped those who thought they had to be tough from trying to see it out on their own. When I worked in a hospital we made sure to rotate ppl who worked on trauma prone floors off every couple of months for a breather or after a particular awful case and we were required to meet with trained supervisors to process the grief and sorrow.

      As far as concrete steps I think requisite mental health care in trauma prone industries is a critical, though I know it can be hard to get. Perhaps having a place for honest conversation and processing within the group? Mandated leave post trauma if possible or if not could the group help cover so the primary person can find some ground to recover? Also what about the group doing some reading or research on their own about secondary trauma and compassion fatigue? Perhaps understanding some of the feelings might help people before they get to that darkest moment?

      Without a more concrete idea of the particular problem it is hard to give specific ideas to deal with your particular stressors and issues. A trauma therapist would probably be a great resource to ask for concrete tips from.

      1. Shishimai*

        Thank you, that really helps. I think I can find a trauma therapist locally to ask about what options can be applied in the moment, possibly to oneself; and I could swear I’ve seen some writing about people handling secondary trauma from a medical profession. I’m adding all this to my notes.

        Right now, there’s not really anyone trained in handling this stuff in the industry, as far as I can tell. (The one dude whose talks I’ve attended brought some training from a past profession: he was a priest for a while.)

        It’s hard to boil the concrete issue down without oversimplifying it – I’m in information security, which doesn’t seem like it ought to be the sort of thing that would cause issues like this. Unfortunately, when one is actually practicing, there’s a fair amount of trying to swim through some of the nastier sides of humanity. We handle everything from “some jerk is trying driveby attacks against things we don’t actually do, lol have fun skid” to “aw boop, someone is trying to use MY system to abuse people, how I do stop them without halting my actual customers.” And the ways people can employ computers to abuse one another are varied, and just beginning to get attention.

      2. Shishimai*

        Um. I wrote a long reply and it apparently got munched, so I will say: thank you, and I’ve added this to my notes as well.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          You could also check out nami.org as they have a wealth of free info and tools that may be helpful to your particular situation.

  172. Trixie*

    I am wrapping up third week in new position in higher education. My original thought was to take stock and assess how things were progressing at 30 days and again 90 days which would line up seamlessly for annual review. As internal transfer, I am aware that my new boss had in mind I could bring some new ideas and energy to make them happen. I think the first meeting will end up being both a weekly update and review of the first month. Ultimately, I want to maintain open channels so we are both on the same page and meeting in person regularly for actual conversations rather than single question emails.
    Here’s my question. What else is good to think about for that first sit-down?

    1. Argh!*

      Don’t assume the boss will welcome “fresh eyes.” Some do, some don’t, even when they say they do.

      Also with one-on-ones, don’t assume anything. You can say that’s what you expect or are used to, but every boss has their own ideas about communication. If they haven’t already brought up the frequency of one-on-ones, that’s a good question to ask.

  173. NotaPirate*

    Office Morale Query – Grumpy Gus vents loudly and frequently at work about how he hates it here, how our boss is a jerk, the hours are bad, the pay is bad and on and on and on. I need this job. I have an exit plan for a year from now. I’m sucking it up and dealing with it until then. I was doing okay at ignoring Gus. (Interupt with “Ok Gus but about the numbers for the teapots…” when he spirals). But lately Gus has found echo chambers in other people. And then those people vent. And the office morale has plummeted. My manager seems completely oblivious. So who’s supposed to boost morale anyway?

    Everyone has off weeks. I don’t mind listening politely if it makes your day better. But lately it seems everyone is venting at me constantly. It’s ruining days when I am in a good mood. And some people (not Gus) seem to think my being in a good mood means they need to remind me of why it sucks here, or vent extra at me. I don’t like focusing on the bad stuff, it doesn’t get better/i can’t make it better, and it seems to drag my day down. I have enough outside issues in my life right now, I’d like to just ignore the work ones.

    Is there any good language to disengage or redirect the persistent venters? I’ve tried subtly changing the subject, but it doesn’t seem to work (and a lot of the time it’s not a time when casually chatting at work is in the schedule anyway). Should i just focus on mentally tuning out and ignoring them instead of trying to say anything?

    1. ZieZieZie*

      When they vent, ask them about solutions. It’s a little annoying to them at first but works so magically. “Oh man, that sounds frustrating. Since Manager Mabel isn’t going change that policy any time soon, so how do you think you could make it better?”

      It’s AMAZING how asking Grumpy Guses their plan to improve their situation shuts them right down.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        Oh my gosh, this reminds me of the venting that I was going to do here until my day got swallowed. I have an employee (not my hoarder) who has complained that I have assigned him too much work, that I pay only lip service to his complaints, and that I don’t support him. Now, it is 100% possible that I have assigned him too much work, that I pay only lip service to his complaints, and that I don’t support him. (He has complained *every* time I’ve made any change to his responsibilities–or even *proposed* making a change–so it is also possible that I’m just worn out from his complaints and am no longer inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.) But we met the other day to talk about possible solutions. I asked him what he thought it would look like for me to support him, and he said “I don’t know, that’s your job.” Okay, what solutions would you like to suggest for the workload situation? “I don’t know, that’s your job.”

    2. Ali G*

      Have you tried the “What are you going to do about it?” tact? Once they realize you won’t just be a passive sounding board, or join in they will stop venting to you since it’s no fun to actually do something about what they are venting about.

    3. Argh!*

      I used to work with this guy and it was draining. Good for you for having an exit strategy.

      There may be some narcissism under all this annoying blather, so step carefully. I told my “Gus” (many times, until it stuck) that I wanted to just focus on my work and not worry about all that stuff. He told people I was not a “team player,” but I eventually found other people wanted no part of his cabal, and that helped a lot.

    4. Ender*

      I find the best thing to shut them up is to ask how their job search is going. Usually people like that love to moan but not actually do anything to improve their situation.

      1. Ender*

        Hit submit too soon. If they are job searching talk about that instead, if not I say right out “if you spent as much time looking for a new job as you do moaning about this one you’d be gone years ago”. If they come back with a list of reasons they can’t leave i point out that there are obviously a lot of positives to the job and they have made the decision that the positives outweigh the negatives and they should stop dragging everyone else down by moaning about something they’ve decided is with staying in.

  174. ZieZieZie*

    I have a coworker who says pretty offensive things on the regular (usually class based, but sometimes racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc). The problem is she is significantly developmentally disabled.

    I don’t know how aware she is that her comments are offensive, but they most certainly make things uncomfortable. I’ve asked her a bunch of times to stop saying these kinds of things, and explained why, but given that it took her a year to remember I don’t start at the same time she does every day, I don’t think it sticks.

    The other day I watched her angrily berate someone at a bus stop who asked politely if she had 50 cents because he was short on his fare. She called him a disgusting idiot to his face and then continued to rant about it for much of the afternoon. She stopped when I finally told her it hurt my heart to see her so angry at someone who asked for a little help, especially since she gets all kinds of supports to live/work independently herself.

    How do you handle super offensive comments from someone who isn’t really capable of understanding how offensive they are? (Side note, our HR sucks and wouldn’t be likely to talk to her about it.)

    1. Annie Moose*

      Do you think it’d help to be very direct about not wanting to hear her comments? E.g. “We’ve talked about this before and I don’t want to hear your remarks about other people.” And then just repeat it every single time she starts in on someone. Just don’t even listen at all–as soon as she starts, go “Hey, remember? I don’t want to hear this kind of stuff.” Or “I don’t want to talk about that at work”. And keep responding that way no matter what.

      Given what you said about it taking a long time to stick, you probably are going to have to repeat this A LOT, but if you can nip it in the bud and at least keep you from having to listen to the rant, that seems like a victory to me.

    2. Rey*

      Even if it is a lost cause, you should continue to correct as appropriate instead of letting her run unchecked. And, of course, in a way that is at her level. Otherwise, her going unchecked sends the message that those kinds of comments are acceptable. This could be a situation where the silent bystanders in a given room or meeting are seen as supporting/condoning/agreeing with her behavior simply because they remained silent instead of speaking up.

    3. LCL*

      If she is supported, someone should contact the agencies providing the support and they can work with her on it. If she is supported, isn’t there someone in HR that works with supported employees? My answer is vague because I know nothing about this area.

      1. ZieZieZie*

        She’s supported in the sense that assigning work to her requires certain steps and accommodations within our agency, but I’ve never seen any evidence she’s supported by an outside agency, and she doesn’t have a helper like some of our other staff do.

        1. Thursday Next*

          That’s interesting—if she has significant developmental disabilities, there’s going to be someone (and usually a team of people) coordinating paperwork and funding, at a minimum.

          I’m assuming HR wouldn’t disclose details of whether she has a Supported Employment Program, or whether she has any community habilitation staff. I wonder if she would tell you, if you engaged her directly, about her “circle of support”? Or whether you could ask HR to relay a message to call you to whoever her contact person is? This is a workplace/community interaction issue, and it’s well within the purview of state-funded staff to train her in appropriate responses to coworkers and community members. (My daughter has developmental disabilities, and though she’s young, I’ve trained in a program offered through our state’s office for persons with developmental disabilities, and this is absolutely something that they would want staff supporting a person with dd to work on.)

          Because she has developmental disabilities, I would do as other commenters suggested, and call her out on it each time. (Whereas if she didn’t have developmental disabilities, I’d say escalate it to HR and don’t engage further.)

          I’m sorry you’re in a difficult position. I wouldn’t want to hear people being verbally abused, regardless of my compassion for the person doing the abusing.

          1. ZieZieZie*

            We work for a state agency that itself coordinates that kind of paperwork/funding. Some of our employees are also assisted by outside agencies because they need a helper or more intensive care, but because she is self-sufficient in that area, she doesn’t have outside agency support. She’s not profoundly disabled, but slow enough that it is obvious she has cognitive delays.

    4. WellRed*

      You handled this well. She stopped, so the message got through on some level. Of course, as others said, it’s going to be ongoing.

    5. Zona the Great*

      I don’t think you can handle it any differently just because she is developmental disabled. You tell her like you’d tell anyone: “That is wildly offensive and I will not listen to such talk. Please do not relay those sorts of opinions to me”.

    6. Bagpuss*

      Would simplifying how you word it help? Stick to something like “That’s a really nasty thing to say. Please stop”
      “

    7. LGC*

      Responding really late, but: Oh man, this is rough – especially since I’m assuming you guys are peers (since you say “coworker” and not “employee” or something else that implies that you’re senior to her).

      My best suggestion would be…explain her behavior like she’s five. I mean, not literally with the same tone you’d use for a five-year-old, but your response to her berating the person at the bus stop was great since it used pretty simple concepts (she was hurting someone who needed help, and seeing her hurt someone made you (a person she cares about) feel bad). Since it seems like this happens quite often, you can definitely talk to her outside of the moment if you feel comfortable doing so, and say something like, “Hey, when you say mean things to people that are different, that makes me feel bad and them feel really bad. You can’t yell at someone for asking for change (or whatever example is relevant here).”

      I feel really icky about thinking of adults like kids, but in this case, you kind of have to – she might not understand the higher concepts of racism and homophobia and the like and the constructs that lead to certain things being really offensive.

      On the flip side, you didn’t specify what her specific issues were (and I’m not even sure if you know, since you’re not her doctor), but a common deficit is not having a “theory of mind” – that is, not being able to put oneself in other people’s shoes. So she may feel really offended by some person asking her for change because they’re asking her for her money, but not be able to see that the person is probably a little desperate and embarrassed to ask strangers for help. Or that everyone else at the bus stop might look at an adult woman making a scene by screaming at someone in public and think less of her because they don’t know her and her struggles.

      1. ZieZieZie*

        I’m several steps above her in heirarchy, but she isn’t my subordinate except in the sense that it’s my job to help her out or help her understand things at times.

        You are correct in assuming that I don’t actually know what her issues are. She doesn’t have a readily apparent syndrome and she never speaks about it. Observationally speaking, her mental capacity/learning rate is similar to someone with Down Syndrome, but she lacks the warm personality or physical features that would suggest that.

        You are also correct in your “theory of mind” assertions. (The omg MY MONEY description is spot-on) and it seems to blow her mind when I and other coworkers explain to her how many of the people who upset her are are suffering as well. Maybe someday that idea will stick enough to inhibit the tantrums.

  175. Anonymosity*

    I had an interview this morning for a web content writer position with an e-commerce company that sells higher-end kitchen items online. It seemed to go well and I think the hiring manager liked me. She was very nice and I liked her, and she seemed like she’d be an excellent boss. Plus she said she has mild dyscalculia too, so I did not have to explain it to her.

    The job seems okay–it’s more than just writing product copy, though. It’s also adding products onto the site (which is metric-based, ugh) and during their busy time from November-December, CSR work. Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh. And from Black Friday to Cyber Monday, for those four days, the hours are 7-7. I am not kidding. But she said they feed people.

    They use an old e-commerce platform and plan to make their own. I was hoping for something more general in terms of a CMS; yet another skill I wouldn’t get. She said there is a six-week training period. They do have health insurance, some group plan I never heard of, and I would lose my doctor. :(

    The office is nice; they have a brand-new building, but it’s in the middle of frickin nowhere.There are NO teleworking capabilities. So you would basically lose PTO or pay if you couldn’t drive to work in bad weather.

    The job itself seems not that bad, but although there are lots of opportunities for bonuses (performance-based), the hourly pay is only $11.50. That’s subsistence wage. I would barely make my bills, I could not ever afford to go anywhere during any time off, and I could not save anything to get out of here because everything will be eaten up trying to pay down student loans that will never ever be paid off. I also could not afford to pay for more training on my own, plus getting to anything that isn’t online would be hard since they’re so far out. Gas and wear and tear on my car would eat up a lot.

    I’m not sure I’d learn enough to catapult myself out of here on the strength of skills. I’d have to take it if offered because I need a job. I really wanted the editing job at the marketing place in St. Louis—no CSR work and there are more opportunities over there. But they haven’t gotten back to me. :(

    I feel like I will never get out of here, like I’m in prison for life. There’s nothing here for me. I have very little quality of life here, and unless I can escape frequently, which I cannot on $11.50 an hour, it will only get worse.

    1. Villanelle*

      Well, if you get a job then you take it because breaking even or nearly so is better than being in the negative. And it doesn’t and shouldn’t mean you stop looking for better ones once you’re there should you be offered it.

      2. Anonymosity*

        That’s what I was thinking I’d do.
        It’s not that BAD–it’s just such low pay, and having to drive clear across town to get there makes it worse. If it paid better, I’d probably be okay with the rest of it.

        The jobs here are just so far below a good wage that it’s nearly impossible for people to leave. You can’t save anything, or it takes forever.

        1. Reba*

          I hear you. I hate that even some good progress is tempered by all the real life elements that make it such a mixed back. I hope you hear back good things, and at least you could stabilize for a while.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I’ve followed your posts a lot and been cheering you on. I do hope you hear back from either one of these. The adage that it’s easier to look for a job when you have a job is true. And some experience is better than no experience– and at least this job is more in the field you are wanting even if the pay and some of the duties are lackluster. And I will say, one CMS is a lot like another. Have you looked into something like Udemy? I’m not sure if it has what you want/need, but the classes I looked into to bolster my job (with coding) were free minus the time spent.

    4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Are you in an income based repayment plan for your student loans (assuming they are federal)? I’m technically repaying mine but my monthly payments are zero, even though I’m working.

      1. Anonymosity*

        I am, but at that low a salary, I would make little to no headway. I wish they would suspend interest when you’re actively making payments; that would really help. But no one does that.

  176. Mewo*

    I have a question – how is the Friday thread so active when most of you are at work? When do you find time to post on AAM?

      1. Annie Moose*

        ^^ this. While I generally have consistent work to do, it’s not so pressing that I can’t take some time to check AAM during the day. (and today in particular, I was sort of between work–waiting for a coworker to finish something up so I could finish my piece of the project, before starting something new–so I had even more time than usual)

      2. Amber Rose*

        Yep. Fridays are slow anyway most of the time, and I am rarely so busy I can’t find five minutes here and there.

        I work in a place where my computer use isn’t monitored, so it’s not a big deal.

        1. LCL*

          Same here. Though I think it’s lightly monitored, I am sure whenever I am denied access to a site it goes on a list somewhere. IT often blocks sites that open as advertisements, though we may have a legitimate business need to go there.

          Also, because I do this as a work break, I just bang out first drafts and post them. If I had to proof them for subject/verb/tense agreement and typos, my posts would take forever to write.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I currently have a pretty low workload so I am usually looking for other things to keep me busy during the day. I’m also done work at 3:30, so I’m home pretty early.

    5. Bagpuss*

      It goes up late afternoon for the UK, so I’m coming to the end of my work day.
      I often browse here and other places when I am on hold or doing stuff that doesn’t need my full attention, or for a brief break to refresh my brain between tasks.

  177. Anonymous Anonny*

    I work in a higher ed environment with a culture that I accept is not going to change, so I’m wondering more about ways to mitigate the effects on my own mental health and/or make sure that I’m not standing out in some bad way. I have several colleagues in my department who become very, very close to their students. They spend hours talking about their mental health with them (they leave their office doors open and it’s very easy to hear this). They give them rides home. They accept Thanksgiving and Christmas invitations to their houses. They let them live in their houses to avoid homelessness.

    I have never done any of this, and I have never had students who ventured the information or the invitation, either. I think it’s probably because I preserve a much more formal distance with my students. (And not all of my colleagues even in my department are doing this, just the ones who are the most popular with both students and other professors). I guess I’m wondering, do I need to be more open to doing this? Some of it wouldn’t be physically possible for me anyway- I don’t drive and so can’t give students rides- but I do worry that I might be judged as more formal or too uptight even though no one has yet said anything to me about it.

    1. Argh!*

      They are more visible because they do these things, but you said it’s not 100%. Can you buddy-up to the other people who have the same kind of boundaries?

      1. Anonymous Anonny*

        I am already close with one of the ones who doesn’t (she said she used to be more open about that kind of thing but then got stalked and harassed by a student, and she now maintains much firmer boundaries). She told me not to worry about it. I have another colleague I have a friendly relationship with but not that close because our schedules are very different, and she’s a single mother of a young kid and not interested, as she told me, in parenting more children. However, neither of them have students bringing them cupcakes that say “Thank you for saving my life” like our colleagues, either.

        I am a female professor with a very young appearance even though I’m in my late 30’s; I’ve had students flat-out disbelieve that I’m a professor, so that’s one of the reasons I prefer to keep it formal. My colleagues who do this are either male or women with more established careers and older appearances than I have (and at least in one case, very different teaching philosophies about what is and is not appropriate in the classroom). And maybe it isn’t really a problem, and is mostly in my head. Like I said, my colleagues who do this don’t say to me, “You should be doing it”; they do brag about what wonderful people it makes them and how much their students love them, however.

        1. Rey*

          It sounds like their personality is different than yours and is a good fit with the students they manage. You can also be a good manager for the students you supervise without becoming someone you’re not or crossing boundaries that make you (and them) uncomfortable. I really liked this post from Allison: http://www.quickbase.com/blog/4-ways-to-be-a-better-manager-in-2017. I would just add that working with a professor can be a highlight for students, so as possible, take time to build a strong relationship with them as a mentor who cares and wants them to succeed. (And as a female student, I really valued praise and guidance from the young female professors because I admired them so much.) You have so much to contribute to your students in your own way!

          1. Anonymous Anonny*

            These aren’t students they supervise as in work-study students, these are students they teach. Just wanted to clear that up in case the “supervise” in your post meant you were thinking of that kind of situation.

            I have mentored students and written letters of recommendation for them to help them get jobs and scholarships. But in general, even there we tend to have conversations about their careers, ambitions, academic work, etc. I suppose that I am simply too uncomfortable to have in-depth talks about abuse and mental health issues the way my colleagues do. But thanks for the reassurance!

        2. tra la la*

          I just posted a reply that may have gone into moderation, so, won’t repeat, but I do want to say that as a student I experienced that kind of behavior as kind of creepy and in one extreme case, abusive. Not all of their students are going to love that kind of thing.

    2. tra la la*

      I taught in this kind of department when I was younger. I eventually left after a couple of years in part because my not doing this really did get used against me (this was not the case in the next department/university I left to go to). I work in a different area of higher ed now, but it’s still an issue where I am, especially for women (but not just women). Some people are very personally invested in being That Kind of Professor.

      If you can, ally yourself with others who are not doing this. Maybe also consider ways that you could engage with students without it spilling over into the more personal stuff? Do you have any advising responsibilities? Could you focus on being a good professional mentor (professional!) and take care not to cross over into “mommy” or “therapist” territory?

      For me personally, as a student/grad student/colleague to faculty like this, I have experienced that kind of overstepping as intrusive and in one extreme case, abusive. There are likely going to be students who don’t need or want this kind of treatment, and you could think of yourself as a professional resource for those students?

      (I have a friend who kept a box of tissue on her desk to give to crying students as she talked to them about where the counseling services office was and what services they provided).

      1. Anonymous Anonny*

        Yeah, I don’t say anything to my colleagues about it, but there are a couple of situations I really side-eye (like the colleague who tells students they must write about their personal lives in their essays even if they’re uncomfortable in doing so; it almost feels like she’s gathering fodder).

        I have mentored students and written letters of recommendation for them. I helped one student get first a job and then a place in a graduate program, which was exciting for both me and her. It’s just nowhere near the numbers and kinds of ways that other colleagues help. I also felt a bit heartless at one point when I had a student who was an excellent student and that’s all I really knew about her, and then the next semester one of my colleagues helped her escape an abusive situation and sheltered her for several months while she looked for work and a good rental situation. I felt guilty for not figuring out that she was in an abusive situation. Yet at the same time trying to figure that out would have made me so uncomfortable that I don’t know if I would have done it well.

        I do the box of tissue thing, too, and I have suggested campus counseling resources and others like tutors when I can.

        1. tra la la*

          I TAed for a professor once who made the students keep personal journals for the class. Which the TAs were supposed to read. There really was a pedagogical reason for this, but I decided to tell the students up front what the purpose was (the difference between writing just for yourself and writing for an audience) and told them that if I had been given this assignment as a college student, I would have deliberately censored myself because I’d have known a person who was responsible for my grade would have been reading it.

          I was in an abusive situation as an undergraduate. I wouldn’t have told my professors or expected anything like that, even though there was a tremendous amount of focus on abuse on my campus (this was when people were just starting to talk about campus rape). What I needed, and remember most fondly from certain professors, was validation that I was smart and had valuable things to contribute. Which you can do without delving into their personal lives (and yes, I saw a counselor off campus during that time).

    3. Dr. Doll*

      At least the colleagues are leaving their doors open.

      I think this kind of extremely close and personal relationships with students is not good because it hides the extent of students’ problems and makes it harder for the institution to respond with *sustainable, appropriate* institutional support like counseling, housing support, Title IX investigations, etc.

      It’s kind of like working a ton of unreported overtime, the project then has bad data on how much it actually costs. (I won’t even start talking about the risks involved here.)

      So you’re right to hold yourself a little apart from this. Are you sensing that this may have implications for achieving tenure? If so, you need to get very clear on the *actual* criteria and make sure you are sound as a bell on those.

      1. Anonymous Anonny*

        That’s a very good point (about the fact that it makes it harder for the institution) that I didn’t think of. I was mostly thinking of it from the “I really, really, really do not want to be that involved with my students” angle. Plus the fact that the professors who got involved like this in my graduate school years turned out to be fucking their students, that one of my current colleagues was stalked by a student before I took this job, and that at my last job I saw a colleague get into administrative hot water because she refused to do a very clearly defined, legally required part of her job because it might “hurt the feelings” of a student she was letting live with her. Nothing like that has happened to me, but I’ve had enough precedent to be fucking wary.

        I’m not deeply worried about it affecting tenure, I suppose? I’m sound on all the actually stated criteria. What worries me a bit is that I’m in the same tenure cohort as two of these people who have extreme student involvement, and they keep saying how much their teaching evaluations rave about them as strong and involved professors. I have average teaching evaluations- some really good, a few scathing, most in the middle. We’re an institution where research is encouraged but teaching is more emphasized, so I worry that I’ll look dim next to two shining stars.

        1. tra la la*

          That’s a really good point about this kind of behavior hiding problems. Another way to look at it is that counselors are trained at helping with personal and mental-health issues. Professors generally are not; by getting involved this way, the professor may also be keeping the student from getting better help by trying to fill in as therapists. (Of course, there’s always the issue of campus counseling centers being overwhelmed, which is another, unfortunate part of this kind of story).

        2. Reba*

          Hopefully your department/institution will go the route of downplaying student evals, since they just reflect students’ biases.

          You have other kinds of records that actually show your care and effort for students. Letters that led to successful jobs, internships, grad school! You can talk about the number of letters you write, and other kinds of advising and coaching that I’m sure you do. I would echo others that that kind of support is just as important–and far more palatable to me–than emotional enmeshment. It’s important for students to feel that you care, and treating them professionally can be caring!

    4. deesse877*

      Late to this, but I want to make two comments:

      1) this could indeed be held against you, but especially since some of the most active “helpers” are pre-tenure it’s hard to make an accurate prediction, so you should probably figure out what works for you, as opposed to what would satisfy others most

      2) helping students isn’t all-or-nothing. You can, for example, build in flexibility w/o getting personal. I often tell students who seem off (stressed, sudden performance change, long illness or whatever) “I don’t need to know your personal business, but are you ok? We can look at options a, b, c if you need them.” More often than not, they WILL give me a brief description of the problem, but WITHOUT making me responsible for rescuing them. I’m not asking about their pain, I’m asking about their needs, if you see what I mean. My sense is that it’s much more responsible pedagogy to enable students to take care of themselves, even in fairly difficult circumstances (short of a safety concern).

      For what it’s worth, I think your sense that deep involvement in student lives can backfire is valid, and the above poster who said it can shade into abuse is correct.

  178. anon1*

    My old boss is so mean to my replacement, and it’s really upsetting me. I’m an assistant and recently got poached by a partner within my company. It’s a great gig, I’m in the same department which I enjoy, and my new boss is an impressive woman that I’m excited to learn from.

    My old boss, who I have a decent relationship with, was a little bummed to see me go so soon (I hadn’t worked for him for very long), but was supportive. The transition to his new assistant was a slow process, new asst had basically a month of training with me. However, he’s super green. For reference, our company has a training program before you can move up the ladder. I was in it for a year. Replacement was in it for 3 weeks before he got hired. So there’s a steep learning curve, and working for my old boss is not an easy job. High volume, moves quickly, very demanding. My replacement has struggled a bit. There’s so much to do that you almost can’t even process what’s happening, you’re just doing because things have to get done – very easy to make mistakes in this role. And I made a bunch when I started! Unfortunately, he’s made a few high profile mistakes, and now my old boss is on top of him alllll the time. It feels like he almost wants him to fail, like he can’t do anything right. My replacement’s done a lot of course correcting, and is really trying to prove himself. I don’t think my replacement is the perfect fit for the position (some attention to detail issues), but has come a really long way and has a lot to offer.

    My old boss has always been a little nitpicky, but it’s manifesting into something really ugly. My replacement will make a typo and my old boss will tell him how he’s “embarrassing himself.” My replacement will accidentally put yesterday’s date on an email, and my old boss will call him an idiot. Things that don’t matter! I’m so disheartened because this isn’t the person I knew and not the experience I had. I’ve done my best by offering my replacement any and all advice, telling him when old boss is being ridiculous, and insisting he doesn’t deserve to be treated like this. I don’t think I’m in a position to talk to my old boss (During our training period when things weren’t as dire, I did tell Old Boss he needed to have more patience, but at this stage, I think it would undermine my replacement to step in on their relationship). My replacement is taking it all like a champ, but shouldn’t have to. Not sure if there’s anything actionable here, but wanted to express my disappointment.

    1. ZieZieZie*

      Can you ask your new boss to say something to old boss? Maybe couch it in a general “We have noticed that your treatment of New Guy is much harsher than you were toward Anon1. He’s had a big learning curve, which can be frustrating, but he’s come a long way and is showing potential, and it disturbs others in the office to see someone spoken to so unkindly, especially over small mistakes everyone makes occasionally.”

      I also feel like it the stress of the boss being might be impacting the attention to detail. I do not do my best work if I am anxious that my boss hates me or thinks I’m an idiot.

    2. Marthooh*

      “I think it would undermine my replacement to step in on their relationship…”

      Their relationship sounds pretty awful as it is, though. If there’s a diplomatic way to say to your old boss “Ugh, that’s horrible and counterproductive, stop it!” and maybe remind him how much extra training you had when you started… I don’t know, what a nasty situation :(

  179. Argh!*

    Whoops! Sent a draft email to my boss. It consisted of a screenshot of a chart that proves she’s wrong about something. I don’t remember doing this, or even contemplating putting it into an email to her!

    She hasn’t responded to this email or to the others I’ve sent this week. (Which drives me crazy and makes me angry – she often does this)

    So the conundrum… send a “Whoops” email or just say nothing and hope that it gets lost in her inbox?

    1. I edit everything*

      I would send a “Whoops!”

      Is the email just the screenshot? If so, just say something like, “Hey, sorry! I didn’t mean to send that. You can just delete it.” It’s happened to everyone, along with the whole “forgetting the attachment” thing.

  180. Overworked night owl zombie*

    I don’t work in an office setting. I work in a warehouse, that packs and ships apples. I work on the lines and I’ve been there for almost a year. I have several issues and I’ll try to be as factual as possible.
    1. I work in a racist environment. I am in the minority, a Caucasian women. The majority of my coworkers are Hispanic. This is discouraging because the only non Hispanic supervisors(Quality control,machine operators, anything above strictly working on the lines),are a male, and strictly office staff. We get new people all the time, and it’s not surprising when one of the new young ladies, gets promoted,only being there a month or less.

    2.My head boss is sexist. He doesn’t place women in the cold storage packing room. We are expected to stay on the lines or floor area, unless you get a promotion.

    3. I really want a promotion, but I know it’s not going to happen. I went to the head boss, I’ll call him Ramsey, a month before harvest started and asked for additional training. I wanted to do more than sort apples. He told me “We’ll see about it. ” I followed up about two weeks later and was told he looks for 3 things when promoting people “Focus, Attendence, and Attitude”. At the time, I had spot on Attendence and stayed in the place they put me each shift. I helped out others, if the supervisors asked me to. Harvest season started and he promoted people. Needless to say my desire to actually work hard, faded. I feel that he gave me false hope.

    4. My coworkers. They are cliquish. The people with promotions, train their friends, so they can hang out, while working. I do my best to get along with everyone, in general.

    I know the obvious answer is to find a new job. However There are some factors keeping me from doing that,mostly transportation related. So, I have to stick it out. I’m just really discouraged though, that the atmosphere I’ll be the same, at every other warehouse. It’s wearing me down. Has anyone else dealt with these kind of issues? Mostly the racist ones.

    1. Sue No-Name*

      I think you’ll get more mileage out of focusing on what you can do to improve or change your situation, not the demographic profile of the organization.

    2. Been There*

      I used to work at a similar warehouse. We made cribs and toddler beds. The only females who got promoted were the ones who kissed butt,(excuse the phrase) spread their legs and/or were related to or BFF’s with management. Hispanic people often got hired because they will work and not complain. The clique thing is alive and well warehouses. The best thing you can do it try to figure out your transportation and try to move on. I went from warehouse work to working in the office of a well-known early childhood development program. I used the best resource at the time- state department of labor. Sorry you’re dealing with this and I hope you can find another job.

      1. Overworked night owl zombie*

        Thank you. That does help. You are correct in how people get promoted, but I am too polite to say those words, when I’m trying to be professional and mature. :)

        1. Mehh*

          For all the talk lately about this site’s commenting community, I’m astounded to see the unchecked racism in the top comment and this reply go unnoticed. “Hispanic people work harder and don’t complain”? You’re ok being a person who not only thinks that but says it?

          1. Reba*

            Hard to be sure, but I think both the commenters in this conversation are expressing others’ views — the stereotypes that underlie racist employment decisions that they are witnessing. I’m trying to give the benefit of the doubt, anyway.

          2. pm pop star*

            Alison has said repeatedly that she doesn’t see every comment. You can flag it for her by replying to it with a link so it goes to moderation and she sees it.

            1. Mehh*

              It wasn’t about Allison seeing it — I know she is busy — but it was about the number of community members who also saw it and said nothing.

              1. Sue No-Name*

                I guess I was too subtle when I originally posted that they shouldn’t be focusing on the race issue. I was trying to keep it polite, as Alison has asked many many times.

    3. Holly*

      You might want to document everything you observe that leads you to believe that there’s anything discriminatory going on, and separately document your performance and what you think you’ve done well. I don’t know your workplace so I can’t say if you actually do need to improve or if you’re stuck. If you determine you’re stuck, time to move on.

  181. Beancounter in Texas*

    Boss needed to know ending balances on all accounts, all 121 of them, on a particular date. Easy! I pull a report from the bank that gives the closing ledger balance on that date for all 121 accounts.

    I pull report. Boss tells us to compare it to the statement “just to be sure it’s correct.” *head desk*

    1. Alex*

      Aggghhhh this is something my boss would do.

      I can’t tell you how many times I have to “check” things that literally can’t be wrong because they are pulled from a system. Well, they can be wrong, but then ALL of them would be wrong, or they wouldn’t make sense. It’s not like there’s going to be a typo.

      I think it is a lack of understanding on how systems work that leads bosses to make people do this stuff.

    2. Sue No-Name*

      Ah, you work for Michael Scott: “Run the numbers! Run them again!” [accountant repeatedly presses “enter” in a spreadsheet]

  182. Annie on a Mouse*

    So I saw this article on LinkedIn about how to craft a better out of office message. I thought the advice was pretty silly and would come across as unprofessional in my office, but was wondering what other people think. (Link in next post)

    1. DoctorateStrange*

      That actually infuriates me. I never did like it when people flake out on others, especially if they could have just as easily communicated why they couldn’t do what is the other party wants or expects.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I’m not surprised that this happens with lower-level jobs, but the one who blew off the interview after the company flew her out is appalling. The candidate should have at least gone through with the interview even if she (or he) wasn’t interested in the job. (They could politely say that after the interview they realized that they weren’t a good fit.) I would think that the company could sue the candidate to be reimbursed for the cost of the ticket.

  184. EJane*

    Service-dog related question! I’m a temp on my second long-term assignment at a hospital that has a reputation for being incredibly diverse and accommodating. I, after months of wavering back and forth on the subject and then working with HR, my temp manager, my assignment manager and my doctor, got approval to have my service dog at work. (I work in a patient-free area.)
    I have a panic disorder, in addition to anxiety and depression. My dog helps alleviate my panic disorder. I don’t need him in the sense that I am in danger of suffering a life-threatening event without him, but he is trained to respond to my panic attacks and help me weather them quickly and safely. (The alternative is regular and high doses of very strong PRN medication, which destroy my short term memory, among other things. So, while I can ostensibly ‘function’ without him, my need for him is real and pressing.)
    I’m offering the justification because I started the process for his approval about three weeks after starting this assignment, so I’ve been without him for a while–which I think delegitimizes my claim in my coworkers’ eyes.

    Anyway, I have four coworkers. I’m the only regular 9-5’er in our little office; the other four jobshare with each other, so i’ll have weeks at a time with one pair of coworkers and then weeks at a time with another.
    One of these pairs has met my service dog when he came in for a ‘trial’ week. The other pair hasn’t met him yet–and one of the latter pair, Kayla, has told my assignment manager, Stephanie, that she doesn’t want him in the office.
    Stephanie doesn’t know why, and is going to speak with Kayla in person to get a clear answer. She’ll follow up with me this coming Monday, 8/27. To the best of my knowledge, Kayla doesn’t have a dog allergy or phobia–I asked about allergies when I was still considering opening this process, and she will show me pictures of relatives’ (smaller) dogs or talk about our coworkers’ dogs happily–but I can’t be sure.
    My service dog sleeps under my desk, and barely moves unless I gesture to him. the biggest issue during the first few days was that he would get up when I left the room without him–but when my coworkers told him to get back on his bed, he listened, and he wasn’t getting up at all by the third day. The other thing is that when I sit on the floor, which I do once a day to file in our lower cabinets, he is trained to get up and come over to me, because me sitting on the floor is usually a beginning sign of a panic attack. I’m not sure if this looks like untrained behavior to my coworkers?
    I’ve asked Stephanie what I can do to alleviate Kayla’s concerns, with no luck. I just switched medications, which means that I’m especially labile, and could really use the help from Hugo on a regular basis. I know that legally, unless Kayla has a condition that is also covered under the ADA, “I don’t like dogs” or “I don’t want him around” isn’t a justifiable reason to refuse to have my service dog in the office. But I’m a temp, gunning for the position I’m in to turn into FTE, and a big part of that transition will be the opinions of my coworkers.

    How do I handle this? Do I sit on it? Do I let my manager know what the ADA requires, or go to HR? Do I accept what happens to avoid rocking the boat, and hope that I can bring him if/when this position becomes FTE in four-six months?

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      Are you a temp through an agency or through the hospital? If you’re working through an agency I would suggest talking to your contact at your agency and explaining the situation and seeing if they could be an advocate for you. I would also suggest getting documentation to help combat any ‘delegitimization’ of your claim. Good luck!

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      For the time being, you have to sit on this.

      You don’t know what Kayla’s feelings are. Stephanie hasn’t gotten back to you. You have no way of assessing the situation right now. So, there’s really nothing you can do until you know something. It is possible Kayla does have an allergy or a phobia. It’s possible there’s something else going on. The point is that you don’t know yet.

      When you do know, you have some choices to make. Having had panic attacks, I wouldn’t wish them on any living being ever. They are horrific. But you have to think through what would make the most sense. The best advice I can give is- listen a lot and try not to jump to the worst possible outcome ever (which as a fellow anxiety sufferer I tend to do).

      Will this impact your chances of a FTE position? I don’t know. That’s going to depend on a lot of things. One thing that may help is making sure people know why you have the service dog (if you think you’re in an environment where mental illness isn’t stigmatized) and being hyper professional about it. If the dog appears at all to be a distraction for you (or others) that’s going to be seen negatively.

    3. Close Bracket*

      The ADA doesn’t require anything specific, just “reasonable accommodation.” I would bring up ADA and use the words “reasonable accommodation,” and point out that there is precedence for allowing service dogs in the workplace as reasonable accommodations. Be sure to approach this as, hey, just so you know, rather than, yo, you kind of have to do this, because employers, unfortunately, are really good at making arguments for why reasonable things place an undue burden on them.

    4. Close Bracket*

      Oh, and fyi, I recently learned that some states have implemented legit service dog registries. Maybe your state is one of them, and maybe registering your dog would help? Maybe. Just something to think about. Some people are familiar with non-legit ESA registrations and will think this is one of those.

  185. AAAnonwife*

    My hub is a manager at a professional firm. Went to HR to explain a new program he wants to implement to give employees a clearer path for promotions in his area. The HR person (female) loved it and said “can females do this?” I don’t even understand this question! Hub oversees both males and females. I asked him “and why wouldn’t females be able to be involved in this program?” He said he didn’t know why she asked this except maybe she wanted to make to make sure it wouldn’t exclude women. Still don’t get it. He was not upset by the question like I was. Thoughts?

      1. AAAnonwife*

        My feeling that women can do anything that men can do, that should be a given. Especially a professional job.

        1. Observer*

          It SHOULD be a given. But all too often it’s not. I’m not sure that this is the best way to deal with the issue, but there is no doubt that it’s a real issue that any competent HR person should be on the look out for.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Depending on your husband’s field, there maybe a historical reason for this question neither he nor you are aware of. I’d not take it personally. It’s HR. They have to make sure everything is on the level. It was probably a poorly worded way to make sure it was an open system for everyone.

    3. Daria Grace*

      Any chance he accidentally used a lot of male pronouns or masculine sounding language in the description?

    4. Chaordic One*

      Often, programs that, in theory, are open to all, have a history of excluding certain groups of people. The HR person might have been skeptical for a variety of reasons. Another Librarian and Dara Grace have offered good possible explanations.

      1. AAAnonwife*

        True. It’s an engineering firm, that only has a small percentage of women. However, they heavily recruit women, so I know it’s not a malicious percentage.

        Thanks all for the comments, I feel better now.

  186. Alex*

    I’m in this situation and I don’t know what to do.

    I am way overdue for a promotion. My boss says she agrees. It’s getting to the point where I’m thinking of leaving over this. I went to my boss for a last-ditch effort to convince her to fight for me to get a promotion. I asked her what the obstacles were, and she said that it was just too hard to convince any of the higher-ups that my job should be reclassified at a higher level.

    She said this to me after I’d just laid out a really, really good argument for why it should be. My argument was not based on “I deserve one,” but rather how promoting me was going to be good for the company. I asked her if I could make this argument to the higher-ups who are supposedly telling her there is no good argument for it. She said no, because SHE was the one who was supposed to advocate for me. I am not supposed to advocate for myself.

    I feel that she has done a very poor job advocating for me. This isn’t the only example. Recently, I was supposed to take on a project. My boss had to get approval for this project from the higher-ups, because it involved some overtime. My boss later said that the project was not approved. I (and my coworker, who was also involved in this project) asked how we would achieve these goals if the overtime was not approved. My boss asked to see the goals, saying she didn’t know any had been drawn up. Now, she had definitely been given (and had asked for) a list of these goals. But she didn’t seem to think that including the goals of the project in the proposal was important. So of course it was denied. Apparently, she just asked if we could work overtime, without saying why, and thought that was “advocating” for us.

    I’m not sure if she just is really bad at advocating, or she truly does not want me to advance in my career. Her words say she is interested in keeping me, promoting me, advocating me, and supporting me, but her actions don’t reflect that. I really wish I could just go talk to her boss, but she would flip out if I did that without her approval. And when I asked for her approval to do that, she retorted with “I am the one who should be advocating for you.” In my boss’s language, that means, I would be really mad if you did that.

    I don’t know what to do. I deserve a promotion. Everyone is getting promoted around me. I have shining performance reviews. I contribute more than people in my own group who have been promoted above me. Not getting promoted is keeping me from doing work I’m interested in, good at, and is needed by the company. It is also driving me to look for a new job.

    I will add that getting promoted would not take me out of her group of direct reports, so it’s not like I can leave her behind post-promotion. I still need to preserve our working relationship.

    Is my only option to leave? This all seems so ridiculous. My boss’s inability to navigate some minor bureaucracy is costing the company a good employee.

    1. frockbot*

      This sounds like a tough situation! It’s SO frustrating to feel hamstrung by higher-ups, especially by your own boss. Unfortunately, this sounds like a scenario where you do need to consider moving on. Yes: the company would be losing a good employee who’s willing to do the work they need done and do it well. But YOU sound dangerously close to the end of your rope, and ultimately, you come first. So…how close are you to the end of the rope? Close enough to jump to a new rope?

      1. Alex*

        I mean, I am job searching, but there are some other complications about my personal life that makes things a little trickier in switching jobs right this second.

        Ideally, I’d like to stay for another year, but this is making me want to quit yesterday.

    2. BRR*

      I feel for you here, I’m in a similar situation. If you haven’t asked specifically what you would need to do to receive a promotion I would do that. But other than that I doubt anything will change.

      1. Alex*

        Yes, I’ve asked my boss what I need to do, but her attitude is that it isn’t me, it’s “the system.”

        So my last-ditch effort was “I hear you that the obstacle is the system. You say that you are trying to fight against the system. What can I do you to do my part in that? Here are some ideas I have. Here are some steps I am going to take.”

        And her response was basically “I should be the one leading this, not you.” And I’m just worried she is not good enough to do it, or doesn’t care enough to make a real effort. I really don’t think that the obstacle is as difficult as she is representing, because other people with other bosses are getting promoted. And yes, those bosses say “I really had to fight for my employee and push back against the system.” But they still did it.

        My boss wants to see herself as my champion, but doesn’t actually want or know how to do the work to actually be my champion. I’m perfectly capable of advocating for myself, but she’s acting as a firewall between me and the necessary channels to get this done, which would be fine if she could do it. But she can’t.

        1. Reba*

          Does she know that you are thinking of leaving over this? If you feel it is safe to tell her that (i.e. you won’t get fired on demoted on the spot) that would be a way to really indicate the seriousness/urgency of the situation.

          You could also try going over her head, let her be mad. Do you ever have opportunities to give feedback on her to her superiors?

          1. Alex*

            I want to threaten to leave, but I’m afraid of saying that and then not being able to find a job! I’ve actually tried some to find a new job, but haven’t had any luck. My job is a bit niche, so I’m struggling to find jobs that match my experience that would be a step up.

            I would be embarrassed if I threatened to leave but then was unable to.

            Although, I have toyed with the idea of quitting without a new job lined up (I know, I know) because really, I want to move to a different city. I do have significant savings. But I know generally, this is just a terrible idea, especially when I’ve already tried and failed to find a new job.

            We do not have any opportunities to give feedback on our own bosses. And it would be tough, because most managers in my company only have a handful of direct reports, and many have just one. So, there’s no anonymity there!

            1. Observer*

              Don’t leave without something lined up. But it may be worth leaving for a lateral move with more potential. Also, are there any other positions in your company that you could apply to – again a lateral move with more potential for growth?

    3. PX*

      I’m probably going to be controversial and say go above her. If you have a good or decent working relationship with her boss, I would find an excuse to talk to them (in my line of work, things like this could plausibly pass as networking/getting to know you/mentoring type meetings) and then drop into the conversation that you are looking to grow beyond your current position and how can that happen. This might be enough to plant the seed.

      Another alternative ofcourse is if you have a decent HR person/team you could go to them and see what they suggest or if they can consider being the ones to put you forward.

      But ultimately as others have said, if your boss isnt putting in the work to get you promoted when she agrees you deserve it, she is doing you a disservice and dont be afraid to leave.

      1. Alex*

        Yes, I’m planning on doing both of those things. “Informally” talking to her boss, who seems to like me well enough and we do sometimes make small talk. I can’t set up a formal meeting with him though.

        I’ve also told her I am going to talk to HR to “ask advice” about the situation. She indicated that she should do that, but she didn’t say I couldn’t as well. My HR actually does have a pretty good structure where I can go talk to them about this without it looking like I am doing something odd. Or rather, if my boss made a fuss about me doing it, that would reflect poorly on her. But I can really only get advice from them that I can ask my boss to implement. I can’t run this through the needed channels without her.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I would do this too, if you are already looking to get out as soon as you can find something.

        I had a coworker whose manager always gave her lip service about advocating for a promotion for her (also overdue and well deserved) and never actually did it. Coworker got a competing offer and left, no counter-offer was made, and the next person in that position was hired at the higher level. Worse, that next person was unreliable and somewhat unethical and left, not of their own volition, within a year. The manager didn’t last much longer either. Sometimes a bad or lazy manager can just do damage like that and the only real solution is to get out from under, or out altogether.

  187. Close Bracket*

    Just want to whine/vent a little:

    Some employers send out essay questions for you to answer before they will consider a phone interview. These questions are typically basic interview questions like why do you think you are a good fit for our company and tell me about a project you worked on that you are really proud of. Argh! Just schedule a phone interview, for god’s sake!

    Okay, that’s off my chest.

  188. frockbot*

    Hello all! I’m job searching and I’m wondering about the dreaded “So, why are you looking to leave your current position?” question. The answer to that question is that my schedule has become more and more unpredictable the longer I’ve been in my current job, and I’m looking for something with a bit more structure. Is that an okay answer, or does it stray too close to badmouthing my current employer?

    1. Shelly574*

      Yeah, that strays a bit into badmouthing. If you’ve been there long enough, maybe a “looking for a new challenge” answer?

    2. Alex*

      I think you can state the reason without badmouthing. “My job’s schedule has transitioned from very predictable to very unpredictable, and that isn’t working for me, so I’m looking for something with a more regular schedule.”

      If you follow that up with why you were so interested in THIS job, I think that is fine.

      When I was interviewing for my current job, my boss asked me to tell her about a time when I hadn’t finished a project, and the only time I could think of was this one time when my boss wanted me to do something ridiculous, and I didn’t do it after having a conversation with HIS boss (by accident–it wasn’t something I brought up). I just kind of put it to the back burner and never picked it up again. My interviewer asked, “what did your boss think of that?” and I said, “Well, he got fired for unrelated reasons, so I don’t think he was too concerned about it.” I wasn’t trying to badmouth–those were just the true answers to the questions.

    3. Drama Llama*

      I don’t think that’s bad mouthing at all, but phrase it as neutrally as possible. “My working hours are largely unpredictable. Because of the way that my job operates it’s difficult to change that, so I’m looking to find another role with a more structured schedule.”

  189. Confidently Confident*

    How do you show your supervisor that you have confidence? Lately my asking questions and requesting confirmation has been viewed as “having a lack of confidence”. I only do this with important tasks that could cause other people issues if not completed correctly. Also, with tasks still somewhat new.

    I have no interest in faking confidence. I don’t plow ahead without being sure but that’s not a lack of confidence. I definitely display hesitancy, at times. And that’s when I’m asking questions and double checking things before proceeding.

    Having hesitancy labled as a lack of confidence rattles me and the result is feeling less confident when before, I never even thought about whether I was confident or not. Does that make sense?

    Had anyone else experienced this? I don’t want to slip into a cycle where this continues, for now it feels like my supervisor is looking for signs of “lacking confidence.”

    1. LGC*

      What are the questions that you’re asking? Are they questions you’ve asked before? And are they on routine matters where the answer is clear cut (when X, do Y in all cases)?

      I know that despite my best intentions, after the third time I’ve answered the same question in the exact same way, I begin to wonder if something else is going on. Granted, I probably shouldn’t, since a lot of other supervisors DO want their employees to check in about even routine things. But…especially with larger teams, a supervisor might need you to be fine with handling minor issues on your own because he really can’t handle approving everything for 20 employees.

      And I’m not sure if that’s your issue! I’m going off my experience, that’s the major thing that gets me doubting an employee’s confidence – if they’re asking the same question repeatedly, and it’s always the same answer.

    2. Reba*

      Not knowing exactly what you’re saying, maybe your questions and double checking could be rephrased.

      Instead of “what should I do next,” or “should I do X followed by Y?” You could say “Checking in, Boss–I’m taking the next steps of X, Y, and Z. Let me know if that’s not correct.”

      Could there be other things about the way you are asking? Tone, posture — it’s annoying to be criticized on this but your use of the word “hesitancy” gave me a little pause. You can definitely go to check on things, learn more, and even say “I don’t know (but I’ll find out)” without displaying hesitancy or lack of confidence.

      Good luck!

  190. Book Badger*

    Happy birthday to me, I’ve got another interview on Monday and I got a job offer!

    …except I think I’m going to have to turn the offer down, because it’s a $17k/year Americorps position and I’d be locked in for a year doing paralegal work (not an attorney). Financially I can’t afford it, career-wise it’s probably a bad idea.

    I’d like to turn them down nicely and in such a way as to keep the possibility of working for them as an actual attorney (i.e. with more money) open in the future. Could someone tell me how this looks? I’ve never turned down a job before so I have no idea what I’m doing.

    Dear [redacted],

    Thank you for offering me the opportunity to work for you as an Americorps paralegal in the [redacted] office. Unfortunately, having gone over my finances, I cannot afford to move to [redacted] and live there for the full year on an Americorps stipend. I am still passionate about public interest work and would be interested in future opportunities at [Llama Legal Services], but at this time I cannot accept the position.

    Thank you,

    –Book Badger

    1. Close Bracket*

      I suggest the following changes:

      Dear [redacted],

      Thank you for offering me the opportunity to work for you as an Americorps paralegal in the [redacted] office. At this time, I have chosen to take other opportunities. I am still passionate about public interest work and would be interested in future opportunities at [Llama Legal Services] if there is a fit.

      Thank you,

      –Book Badger

      Others can weigh in, but I’m generally opposed to telling employers about your personal finances. People turn down jobs all the time. It’s ok not to go into detail.

      1. Book Badger*

        I only mention the finances because it came up in the interview. They asked if I could afford living on a stipend (it’s a valid question – Americorps is notorious for essentially forcing you to experience poverty to understand the lives of the people you’re helping) and I said probably yes, but then I went and actually did some math and now it’s more clear that it’s actually a no.

        Should I still not include it anyway?

        1. nep*

          Initially I was thinking your note was fine, but then reading that you probably said (in the interview) you could live on the stipend–I think best to make a broad statement about choosing other opportunities. Because otherwise you’d have to go into ‘on further consideration’ or something, so as not to appear that you’re ignoring or forgetting that this came up…?

          1. Book Badger*

            What I said was something like, “Well, I’ve looked at my finances a bit” (I had done a bit of research but not a full-on thing), and I listed off some points in favor – no student loan payments, very low cost of living – and said something along the lines of “I think I probably could, I’d have to check to be sure.”

            It’s just that now it’s more clear that despite those points in favor, it’s still too expensive. I hadn’t considered, for example, the start-up cost of moving there at all. The honest thing is that it’s not that I wouldn’t take the job if I could, it’s not that I’m in this to make money (public interest law doesn’t pay well and I accept that), it’s just… this is TOO low-paying to the point that it’d be a money pit.

            1. nep*

              I see. Seems to me best to just say something general / more vague about pursuing other avenues. If this is the way the finances discussion went, they’ll likely infer that this aspect was part of your decision. You could go either way, but I don’t think you owe any detailed explanation.

        2. Epsilon Delta*

          I would not say anything about the finances either. Maybe say something about “this does not seem like the right fit for me at this time” or something similarly vague, because it sounds like you wouldn’t take the job if they raised the stipend.

  191. LQ*

    I messed up something that was sort of my responsibility and sort of not and it’s going to create a lot of headache. And it’s the second time in 2 days. My role is not supposed to be a role that creates problems for my boss but I’ve now made 2 of them in a week and it’s not good. I’m really frustrated because they are both problems with people who are outside of our branch of the organization so I need to manage people I have no management authority over and it’s so incredibly frustrating. And then there’s this huge layer of the …murky? things that I feel like I’m on board with and then someone else jumps in. Boss says to hold off on doing anything formal while he works on a political angle with a project. Someone else (who boss really holds in high esteem and I do too) is like EVERYTHING MUST FOLLOW THE PROCESS!!!! I’m like…mmmm I’m pretty sure Boss said to NOT do that with this project and she gets gleeful when people follow the process, that again, boss said to not do. And I second guess myself because I’m supposed to be using her for help with this squishy not a real project project and she keeps pushing me really hard to follow the normal process, which again, boss said not to do. Then I doubt myself and do what she says, and BOOM. And then again and again BOOM.

    I’m sure she’s right in most cases, but this is not them.

    1. Beatrice*

      As someone who has been a highly respected process pusher….do what your boss is telling you to. Most processes have exceptions. Sometimes the people responsible for designing the process and getting everyone on board get blinded to the exceptions, or gloss over them because they need to impress on everyone that this way is the way to do it, and they don’t want to get bogged down talking about the times we don’t do it that way. Or sometimes they just drink too much of their own kool-aid. Part of our job, if we do it well, is to educate and advocate with management to get their buy-in for what we’re pushing and make sure they understand the impact if the process isn’t followed. Most of us understand that if what we say conflicts with what your boss says, you’re probably going to do what the boss tells you to. If we do a good job of teaching the “why” and the “what happens if” stuff, then you’ll come to us if your boss is telling you to do something that might be really bad for the company, so we can help you advocate upward.

  192. Nervous Newbie*

    Hi all, I recently got a new job thanks to all the advice on here! It’s finallly a move from teapot representative/assistant to teapot associate. Much more responsibility and decision making ability in a smaller workplace. Which is exactly where all my concerns come in. On the one hand I see so many areas where improvements can be made and I really want to prove myself but I also don’t want to ruffle anyone’s feathers. Folks around here have been in the company for years and our department is a completely new team and I can tell there’s a strong sense of distrust. I would liken it to a company being very suspicious of a consultant coming in and making recommendations. And my boss is not very well regarded either. I know taking this job will move my career forward in a great direction but any thoughts on building trust and warming relations in a new role?

  193. vr larson*

    I have done two interviews with a company that recruited me via social media, and I believe they have checked all of my references. One reference told me right after the company called her, and I had a missed call from another reference earlier while I was at work. I am thinking the reference from the missed call was calling to let me know he just spoke with the company–I tried to call him back to make sure but he didn’t answer. About half an hour after the missed call, I got an email saying that the director (one of the people with whom I’ve interviewed) wants to have a 15-minute phone call with me early next week.

    Does this sound like an offer is coming, or could the call be about something else?

  194. Bluebell*

    So late but maybe someone will want to comment on this gender related issue. Our organization is tackling evaluations. Grandbosses have to approve ratings before the evaluation meetings. My boss lets me know that he feels one staffer shouldn’t receive an Exceeds rating because she is too soft spoken and doesn’t show enough leadership. He also cited budgetary costs but the difference between the rating I wanted to give her and his preference is only $200. She’s done so many great things this year and if it was a male staffer I don’t think this would be happening. Any helpful advice?

    1. Canadian Natasha*

      Is leadership a part of the position? If so, could you show instances of her influencing others that demonstrates leadership (of a more quiet style)? If not, perhaps you could point out that he’s basing his assessment on criteria that isn’t relevant to the job and tends to have a gendered bias, since women are often criticised/penalised for the same behaviours that men consider leadership if another guy does it.

      1. Bluebell*

        Thanks for the suggestion. She has a position where she offers a lot of customer service to other departments and I’m trying to think of what can be couched as “leadership “. We already have a goal that she should look into resources for managing sideways and influence without authority.

    2. Chaordic One*

      You might consider using the terms “quiet leadership” and “servant leadership” when making your case to the the grandboss. So often, someone who is soft spoken gets things done, but it isn’t always obvious because they’re soft spoken.

  195. Beatrice*

    See if he’ll settle for keeping the rating, and including a comment somewhere (I assume your process incorporates some kind of freeform written feedback) about assertiveness being an improvement opportunity. I just did assessments for my team, and there were a handful of little things that they really did need to work on, that didn’t affect their ratings but found their way into the commentary.

  196. Temporarily Anonymous*

    Would anyone in administrative work (of any kind) be able to comment on their experience of working with private sector vs government and what pros and cons they found in each?

    I’m considering moving from gov to private sector admin work in good part because I’m tired of government beaurocracy issues/drama* but I have had little private sector experience. Just trying to figure out how different it would really be. Thanks!

    *Constantly fighting for a fair wage every time the contract gets renewed, bullies never fired, insiduous (unspoken) pressure to work extra for free because of insufficient staffing, etc

    1. Temporarily Anonymous*

      By the way I’m Canadian but I’m not sure where I’ll be working in the next few years (so comments from anywhere are welcome).

    2. Alianora*

      I graduated last year, so not a lot of experience, but I was an intern doing partly admin work at a county government agency and most recently a temporary admin at a large private university.

      Government: Tight budgets for sure. Most people had been working there a long time. A lot of passive-aggressiveness, especially between departments. I felt like I learned a lot but would not want to go back.

      University: Deep pockets, but a lot of turnover within my department — most people had been there less than three years, many less than one year. Much busier during our busy season (summer), so people were more stressed out. Communication between work groups was not great, but not really worse than at the government job. I liked my coworkers a lot more and would go back.

      1. Alianora*

        Oh, I just noticed you said you were from Canada — this is in California, if the context helps!

      2. Temporarily Anonymous*

        Thanks Alianora. Looks like passive agressiveness is apparently a thing in government workplaces on both sides of the border, gaah!

        Would you say the turnover in your non-gov work was by choice or were people being let go?

        1. Alianora*

          By choice, mainly. A lot of entry-level positions there, so a lot of people were leaving because they were moving up in their careers. Others couldn’t handle the stress and heavy workloads of the summers.

          Honestly, I think a lot of the summer stress could be solved by sufficient staffing. The directors have been pushing to hire more people, but the main university has been blocking it. There was never pressure to work for free like you mentioned in the OP, though.

  197. WalkedInYourShoes*

    I want to thank everyone on AAM who have helped me navigate cover letters, challenging interviews and interviewers. I have learned so much about making a learning experience about myself; and what type of role and company are for me. It took almost 4.5 months for me to land at a company where I feel it matches my background and experiences.

    So, at last, I signed an offer today and was an amazing offer that I couldn’t turn it down. I start in Sept. I might be back for other advice and to offer advice :)

    To those who are still searching, please don’t give up! It is sometimes very challenging, but it’s very worth the wait.

    1. MiloSpiral*

      Congratulations!!!! So glad to hear you’ve landed a job you’re excited about. Keep going and keep growing!

  198. VM*

    My boss has offered to pay me a cash bonus out of his pocket this year as our employer is unable to do so. Are their any legal issues with this sort of thing? It is a very kind offer from him because I know he wants to retain me but I want to make sure their aren’t any issues with it from a tax/legal standpoint.

    1. Epsilon Delta*

      I’m pretty sure it’s not legal from a tax perspective. Even if the boss characterizes it as a gift, I don’t think that would fly. That said, people get paid under the table a lot, so I’m sure others have gotten away with it before.

      I wouldn’t feel comfortable accepting that type of gift/bonus from my boss’s personal funds, even if I thought I would likely not face any consequences.

    2. Ender*

      For tax purposes it would probably be a gift so look into gift Tax. I don’t think it would be illegal in my country but it might be considered unethical in some industries.

    3. I am who I am*

      For all practical purposes, dollar amount matters on this.

      If we’re talking a relatively small amount, I’d go ahead and take it. I’d define small as 1) the equivalent of only a few hours wages and 2) an amount that is clearly no hardship to the boss. For example, once on a business trip I gave a much more junior employee $50 of my own money to go see the sights. It was clearly a gift from me in my role as mentor rather than boss, and the IRS has better things to do that argue the point.

      However, if we’re talking a substantial amount of money, enough that it’s not just a goodwill gesture, but enough money to make a difference in whether you feel you are compensated fairly, that’s a gray area at best and some type of payroll fraud at worst.

      The only way I’d take that amount of money is if it went through the payroll system. For example, I once saw a situation where a group didn’t meet all their bonus targets due to some circumstances beyond their control. Senior management approved the manager of the group’s request to reallocate the bonus pool for his group, effectively giving part of the manager’s bonus to the employees instead. There are some issues with that, but not legal ones, at least not given the specific details of that bonus plan that I won’t get into here.

  199. Forking great username*

    I posted last week all excited about a job offer. I started on Monday and have spent the week at trainings and prepping my classroom. Today I got a phone call asking me in to an interview for a job I’d been hoping for all summer. Public school rather than charter, super close to my house, etc. But I applied for it in June! Kind of annoying that they waited until a week and a half before school starts to even do interview phone calls. I declined the interview – I’ve already put a lot of work into my classroom, and although I haven’t signed my contract yet, I’d hate to leave my current school and students in the lurch this close to the year starting.

    I guess I’m just looking for some confirmation or to hear if others would have done the same thing. I figure I’ll stick it out for a year where I am, then look again next summer in case a job I’d prefer becomes available. And honestly, I’m not sure I want to work in a district that knows they need a new teacher in June and hires them in almost September – doesn’t seem to show concern for supporting new teachers and giving them proper time to prep for the year.

    2. Book Badger*

      Maybe they had another person who’d interviewed and accepted the job and then dropped out last minute? Still horribly unprofessional, though.

      1. Forking Great Username*

        They said that their first round of interviews was running late because they had some ‘internal movement’ and it took some time to figure out what grade level they were going to be hiring for. Not a great reason – I get that it’s summer, but almost three months to figure out what grade levels people are teaching next year? If they really want good people, it seems like they’d figure it out sooner or just tell the people interviewing that it will be secondary English, but they’re still figuring out exactly what grade.

    3. MiloSpiral*

      I think you did the right thing. Besides the fact that it was just bad timing on their part (perhaps a sign of poor time management? I’ve never worked in a school so I’ll take your word for it), you show integrity that you keep your word to your new employer. You already made a contract with them, which you could technically break at any time, but it certainly wouldn’t reflect well on you if you were to do that so soon after hiring. Not sure how small your professional pool is in your area, either, but I could see it getting around to other schools as well.

      Anyway, I think you’re good! Enjoy your new position; you will be great.

    4. ScienceTeacherHS*

      This sounds like they hired somebody else and then that person dropped out recently. My bet is that somebody in the district decided to transfer to that position/school (which is why they didn’t do external interviews) and then that person quit at the last minute.

      My school typically just posts the listing as school and department (so my job would be posted as high school science) and then the person hired finds out the specifics later, or for science the schedule might get adjusted based on whether we end up hiring somebody who is life science or physical science. If a middle school teacher were transferring up to high school (and then quit in August) that would explain why there wasn’t a general opening for this school.

      Either way, once I got to the point where I was setting up my room, any new job offer would have to be WAY better to get me to switch.

  200. MiloSpiral*

    Hello all! Hoping someone can help me out with this–I’ve been able to find lots of good AAM articles that more or less cover it, but I’m still left with some questions.

    TL;dr: My dad offended a younger coworker by snapping at him for arguing with my dad’s feedback, and now both my dad’s manager and the younger coworker’s manager are running interference between their two direct reports without actually mediating a conversation to sort out the problem. What gives?

    The context: My dad has been working in his field for a long time–he started in his twenties and is now about three years away from retirement. As such, younger colleagues often come to him with questions and feedback on their work.

    One of these younger colleagues–“Newman”–works at the desk next to my dad, under a different manager–“George.” Newman constantly asks my dad for feedback on his work, but then immediately argues with it and explains why he had to do it the way he did. This is frustrating to my dad, especially seeing as Newman is actively seeking out this feedback. After a few times of this, he brusquely told Newman that he couldn’t continue to help him with his problem, at which point Newman stormed away.

    Fast forward a few days, and my dad receives a call from his manager–“Jerry.” Apparently, another manager has related to Jerry that one of his direct reports complained to him that my dad offended him. At first Jerry says he can’t tell my dad who it is, but then confirms it when my dad asks if it’s Newman. Jerry says that this is the second complaint he’s received about my dad’s words offending someone, although he doesn’t go into detail about the nature of the first complaint or who gave it.

    The next day, Dad receives an email from George (Newman’s boss), which details some of the questions Newman had. These are standard work questions that really shouldn’t need the supervision of a manager. Newman is CC’d on this email. Dad responds to the email, and then asks Newman later if he saw it, to which he said he hadn’t.

    My dad is frustrated with Newman’s behavior, but also frustrated with Jerry and George. He doesn’t understand why they’re partaking in this game of telephone, and I don’t either. I think it risks crossing the wires further between two people who already struggle to communicate, and besides, it’s completely inefficient and doesn’t do anything to help Dad and Newman’s working relationship.

    I understand that my dad offended Newman, and so Newman probably isn’t comfortable telling my dad that directly. But I’m confused as to why George isn’t mediating a conversation between Newman and my dad, or coaching Newman on how to have difficult conversations with his coworkers when something they do makes him upset. It seems to me like Jerry and George are doing a whole lot to not actually address the issue, which is interpersonal tension. Am I off base here? Is this a normal thing for managers to do? It seems weird.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Reba*

      Sounds like poor, passive management? I agree it’s silly.

      Has your dad asked the higher ups if he and/or they could deal with this more directly?

      1. MiloSpiral*

        I advised him to do that, and I think he agreed it was a good idea. My mom wondered if he should go to HR–after all of the AAM I’ve read, I was like “NO!” Haha. But her workplace is small enough that they don’t technically have an HR dept., so I wasn’t surprised.

        Anyway, I do wonder if he could go back to Jerry and ask him if they could all sit down to hash this out. But I think his response to George’s email was his attempt to do that. He was frustrated that Newman hadn’t even read it–it had been over twenty-four hours, and I don’t think they receive much email compared to other jobs.

        Thanks for your response!

    2. Rick Tq*

      Newman asked your father for advice and guidance then pushed back when he got it????? And then escalated by whining to his manager?

      You Dad should just Grey Rock Newman from now on, he has demonstrated he places no value in guidance from an industry veteran

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Yeah, lots of annoying habits on Newman’s part, all being exacerbated by two(!) managers’ unwillingness to actually address the real issue at hand. In my opinion.

        Thanks for your feedback!

  201. Epsilon Delta*

    I just started a new job and it’s been amazing. There are so many good things about new job, but there has been something kind of weird bothering me.

    I really, really miss my old coworkers. Like to the point where I question whether it was the right decision to leave my old job (and then I think about all the reasons why I left and it’s immediately clear that it was the right choice!). We were probably more like a group of friends who work together rather than coworkers who are friendly towards each other.

    There is nothing wrong with my new coworkers, they are all nice and friendly people and I’m sure I’ll feel like I fit in soon.

    Have you ever left a job and missed your old coworkers? How long did it take to feel like you fit in with your new coworkers? Tell me this is normal and will subside soon.

    1. ChocolateIsAwesome*

      I can totally related Epsilon Delta. It often takes me quite a while to get used to a new environment, makes me feel as if I am totally 10 years old and having swapped a new school again!
      I’d say that it would be good for you, work wise, to start making friends with your new colleagues. Start small, e.g. if they do group lunches, ask to join in, or sit in the pantry where lots of people eat. I always finds meals are the best setting for low pressure friend making. In a previous job I did, because of the pressure, I found myself constantly running off to have lunches by myself. It REALLY didn’t help me fit in, and kinda contributed to me quitting after 4 months.

  202. TygerTyger*

    Hi all, looking for feedback on how to handle a really specific situation. Here goes: I work in mental health and have a colleague from grad school (“Taylor”) that I will be doing a little work with in an upcoming position. Our paths won’t cross much due to our roles and scheduling, but I’m nervous about interacting with Taylor due to their prior history of over-disclosing client info. The last time I say Taylor, they shared really specific information about a person they were working with (their age, gender, specific ethnic and religious identities, and more) in order to brag about how Taylor and Taylor’s team had helped the person “so much”. Technically, Taylor was working in a slightly different social services field and not in their capacity as a therapist (meaning the oversight agency has no reason to get involved). I felt really grossed out and upset but I froze. On top of this, Taylor is often pushy about wanting to be “friends” with me and hang out even though we have very little in common. I’m usually pretty assertive but I’m nervous about pushing back too directly as Taylor has many connections and supporters in our (small) professional community.

    My questions: 1) any idea on how to speak up when Taylor starts talking about clients? 2) how can I (discreetly or indirectly) push back if Taylor over-shares about clients? 3.) How do I defer or demur about ongoing friendship requests since we’ll be seeing each other more regularly?

    1. Reba*

      The oversharing is something that may get ironed out during supervision or peer supervision. You could try standard conversation-stalling techniques (gray rock, subject changes) and/or you could have a more big picture conversation along the lines of “I feel uncomfortable when you tell me this stuff about your clients–it’s much more than I understood we should share according to Ethical Thing We Both Studied. I’d rather only talk about those kinds of details in peer supervision meetings.”

      That last bit might not be relevant to you, but I include it since it is my understanding that is is common, even important, to get into the nitty gritty *in the context of peer supervision* — not outside it. So you might be able to underline the ideas of 1) Not the time and place and 2) we are both professionals, right, dude?

      For your own peace I’d also try to ascribe positive motivations to the oversharing unless/until you know otherwise.

      For the social stuff, you could try saying that you keep a line between friends and coworkers — only so far as that is true, I guess.

    2. MiloSpiral*

      I agree with what Reba said, and I’d like to add to it. When you tell Taylor, “Oh, I’m not really comfortable knowing so much personal info about your client–glad to hear that you’re doing work you’re proud of, though. How are things going with Project X?” Append a subject change immediately to the boundary you set, as this is definitely not something you want to debate with Taylor. You might even use the fact that you went to grad school together to your advantage–lots of non-work related subjects to mine, if these conversations occur somewhere like the lunch room!

      If you’re uncomfortable with such a direct approach, you could try humor: “Whoa, you want to tell me their Social Security Number, too? Glad to hear that you like working with this client, though. By the way, have you talked to Fellow Student Y lately?”

      Re: the friend thing… I actually think being very direct would be best and kindest to everyone involved (not least of all yourself). Captain Awkward ( http://bit(dot)ly(slash)2Ngjm1j ) advocates very strongly for just telling someone you don’t want to be their friend, the same as you would tell someone you don’t want to date. I’m sure this feels especially awkward considering that you have to work with this person and you also have prior history with them, but I think Reba’s advice to cite a work-life balance rule is sound. Plus, imagine how much time and awkwardness you’ll save when you won’t have to constantly rebuff Taylor’s invitations–which, given how pushy they seem, they will most likely eventually notice and *will* bring up. Better to head that off at the pass and have the conversation on your own terms.

      I know you worry about pushing back so strongly for fear of professional retaliation, but honestly, picture how that conversation between Taylor and a colleague would go. “I asked TygerTyger out for drinks after work and they said no! Can you believe that?” “I invited TygerTyger to the movies with me this weekend but they said they’d rather not. What is their deal?” Sounds like TygerTyger didn’t want to go out for drinks or to the movies, which is the exact truth. If your peers are reasonable, they won’t hold your disinterest in hanging out with a coworker against you. Coworker friendships outside of the office should be a strictly opt-in activity; anyone who thinks otherwise should probably be avoided at all costs.

  203. La Coffee Cup*

    How much work should you prepare for a job interview?
    Like, besides basic knowledge of the company, should you also attempt to go in depth, stalk the interviews on LinkedIn a bit, or maybe even prepare some presentation on potential THINGS the other company could do? Would that be be too presumptuous?
    I was asking, because I had an interview a while back, where the boss mentioned that he felt I didn’t do enough homework, and asked me to be prepared to give them some ideas in the next interview. But my assumption had always been an interviewee who marched into an interview room and told the interviewer about TOP TEN THINGS COMPANY XYZ SHOULD BE DOING is quite presumptuous and can really back fire.

    1. Jean (just Jean)*

      3 suggestions:
      1. Most important: Alison has a free downloadable guide for interviews. It’s always at the top of any AAM page, on the right-hand side, under “Get My Books.” I’ve used it. It’s very helpful in focusing your thoughts to present yourself well–and also to find out about this potential workplace. As Alison says, an interview is a two-way conversation.
      2. Search the AAM archives under “Categories.”
      3. You can also do Command/F or Control/F to find “Interviews” in any open thread with a gazillion potential topics. I think there’s a discussion in this thread because I saw the word a lot while trying to navigate back to my comment-in-progress.

  204. ChocolateIsAwesome*

    Has anybody ever gone back to an old job?
    3 years ago I left a job I had worked 9 years in because the hours were long and the work was getting monotonous. I thought a change in field would be better. But it turns out I miss my original field a lot. These days, I write e-mails more than I do design, and I feel as if I am taking a step back. I am honestly contemplating writing to my boss and checking if they are still hiring. Does anybody have any recommendations as to how I can go about it?
    Would I need to beg for my old job back, e.g. admit I was wrong in swapping a job, eat a bit of humble pie, have to take a pay cut?
    Should I approach my original manager? Or should I just write in simply like any normal applicant?

    1. Reba*

      Wow, you were not “wrong” to change jobs, you should not have to grovel or like, denigrate yourself to get hired, sheesh!

      If that is the kind of attitude cultivated at the old workplace, do you really want to go back there? Are there other options in your field besides this one company you could explore? It’s probably not your sole option.

      But anyway, do reach out to your old manager, she might be thrilled to hear from you! (unless she’s the one making it seem like making career moves is a “mistake” or betrayal of loyalties or something — if that kind of damaging emotional thinking is coming from you, alternatively, consider spending some time teasing out where that comes from.)

      1. ChocolateIsAwesome*

        Thanks Reba, I’ll try to give myself some self reflection time before reaching out to the manager

      2. MiloSpiral*

        I agree with Reba. If your old manager is reasonable, they’ll understand that a contract of employment is a business transaction and either party can end it at any time, for any unprotected reason.

        In fact, if you were to try and unnecessarily eat humble pie, it may put you in a less powerful position.

  205. ONFM*

    I’m so late to the party! Ha.

    I work with a group of much senior managers who often miss details in written correspondence and then call to argue about things. I’m then put in the uncomfortable position of pointing out the actual text of the message…It’s not just an issue with MY emails, it’s also a problem with others in the agency. I’ve gotten to the point of rereading and editing down every instructive message I send out to (what seems to me) an excessive degree. They simply don’t read the message…as best I can tell, they read the subject and maybe the first line and then immediately call to argue or ask questions that would be answered if they finished reading.

    Is there anything I can do? This week I had to send out an email (reviewed by another supervisor because I thought I was typing angry), forwarding an original training announcement that essentially restated, with specific parts in bold, the original message. It was not confusing. It was very simple. I feel like a jerk for doing it, but I’m tired of being put in the position of defending a position or decision that doesn’t exist BECAUSE THEY MISREAD SOMETHING.

    1. MiloSpiral*

      Ugh, this is so annoying! Although I am absolutely guilty of this… oops… :P

      When you say “much senior managers,” do you mean “grand-grand-grand managers” or “managers that are a lot older than me,” or both/neither? When I first read your question I interpreted it as the second one, and so I thought “It must be that they prefer to call rather than email.” Even if age isn’t in play, it certainly sounds like that’s the case.

      That being said, could you perhaps call your managers to let them know these things, rather than email them? I know that’s probably a huge hassle, but it sounds like you’re already dealing with a lot of hassle by spending so much time editing your emails.

      While I can see how you think that bolding certain parts of the email could come off as passive aggressive, I actually don’t see it that way at all, and I think this may be a good solution–perhaps better than calling. It means you don’t have to restate or reexplain, but can just head that all off at the past by visually calling their attention to the most important details. I’m active on a lot of ADHD community forums and I use this tactic a lot, because I know that I am (a) long winded and (b) people with ADHD often don’t have the attention span to read the entire post! So I try to make it easier for them that way. It saves on a lot of time spent correcting miscommunication.

      Other than that, I’d suggest Alison’s classic advice of bringing the problem to their attention by asking what you can do better. “Sigmund, I’ve noticed that a lot of wires are getting crossed in our emails. Is email the best method to communicate this information to you? I’ve noticed you often call to clarify; would you prefer that I call you instead?”

    2. Alianora*

      Yes, I have worked with people like this. It’s frustrating and hard to predict if you’re someone who always reads everything thoroughly.

      Some things I do:

      – I use bullet points a lot.
      – Bolding helps, too!
      – I make my emails as short and to the point as possible.
      – Have very clear subject lines.

      When they follow up, if it’s in person or over the phone, I give them the answer, then say something like, “I think there’s also more detail about this in the email I sent you, if you need to refer back to it later!”

      If it’s over email, I’ll literally just paste from the previous email. Example:
      Original email: […] Please upload the document as a Word file. […]
      Them: How do I upload this? It won’t accept my JPEG.
      Me: Hi Name, please upload the document as a Word file. Thanks! – Alianora

      In general I try to treat having to do this as an inevitability. That way, I can just be matter-of-fact and cheerful. Unless they get snippy with me for not telling them in the first place, I don’t usually point out that they misread. Sometimes they’ll come back and be like, “Oops, sorry, I see that you said that before!”

      I also agree that discussing things in person can be best with some people. A coworker (higher up than me) always wants to communicate in person. She’ll bombard me with verbally communicated tasks. Personally, I’m much better with the written word, so I usually write it all down and follow up via email. If I have to email her about something, I’ll often bring it up again when I see her in person so that she can actually process it.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Ooh, yes, referring them back to the email (or re-copying and pasting) is a good idea. Especially if they keep calling and you keep giving them a brief version of your emailed answer and follow it by saying “It’s all in the email if you need to refer to it later!” That way they’ll associate calling you with just getting redirected to the email, which will get very boring very fast and also make the point much faster than any sort of editing or watering down you’re wasting time on.

  206. Jessen*

    Pending a security clearance (which isn’t expected to be an issue, it’s public trust and I have like the most boring background ever), I have a job offer for a government helpdesk job.

    I am really, really, really excited. I’ll be honest, the salary isn’t anything that would impress most people, but it’s still a giant step up for those of us where $15/hr was a dream.

    1. MiloSpiral*

      Congratulations!!!! I’m so glad to hear you are excited for your new job. And no shame in being excited about a “small” salary–you know your finances best and you also are accustomed to much less, so it’s exciting! When I got my first salaried position I was excitedly telling my parents about the benefits that came with it, and while they were happy for me they very kindly explained to me that those benefits were customary. I’m just so used to hourly work that I thought those benefits were above and beyond anything I’d ever been offered! Plus, from what I understand I’d imagine that govt work doesn’t usually pay well? So good on you.

  207. Jessen*

    It’s good pay for what it is – which is a job that doesn’t require a lot of specific skills or credentials to get hired. My understanding is it’s the sort of IT helpdesk spot where anything that’s genuinely going wrong gets referred to someone else. Your job is to keep the someone else (who has an actual computer degree or something) from having their time taken up resetting people’s passwords and making sure the right people have the right permissions and anything else that really just requires someone who can follow the directions.

    And I am absolutely aware that having a 9-5 schedule and an actual 401k match and health insurance without a giant deductible are normal benefits for a lot of people, but they’re still not something I’ve generally had. My personal income requirements to keep myself reasonably comfortable are fairly low, I’m quite happy with a studio apartment and I think beans are tasty if you know how to cook them.

    1. Jessen*

      …that was supposed to be a reply to MiloSpiral. Sorry, I woke up early to the sound of a cat hacking up a hairball on the carpet.

    2. MiloSpiral*

      Oh we are absolutely on the same page! I was saying I had the exact same reaction you had. :) Good for you!

      1. Jessen*

        Yeah, that was supposed to be agreement. ;) Like, to someone who got a relevant job out of college it wouldn’t be impressive at all, but when you’ve been mostly working service industry it’s a big deal to have Saturday AND Sunday off and paid sick time is a luxury, well, that’s another story.

        1. MiloSpiral*

          Preach!! It’s only been about four weeks of having a M-F schedule and I still wake up on Saturdays absolutely baffled with what to do with my time. A good feeling for sure. :)

  208. ReturningEmployee*

    Hi! Does anyone have any advice for someone who is looking at returning to a previous company, and how to put out the word?
    I’ve recently moved back to my old city and would love to get back on with the company where I previously worked. I was thinking I would just send an email to my former supervisor letting him know I was back in town and that I’m here if there are any vacancies – but I’m so nervous about it! If you have any suggestions, I would be glad to hear them!

  209. anon for this*

    I’m not expecting a ton of responses at this point in the open thread, but I’m curious to see how others would approach this situation.

    I’m currently in grad school, and will finish in December and start working full time in January (in engineering if that’s relevant). An old boss of mine from an internship recommended me for a position in another office of the firm he works at (he contacted me completely out of the blue about working at his firm), and I got an offer for a position that will start in January! So while that’s great, and I feel like there are great opportunities for growth and learning for me at the company, I’m a bit worried about if I’m missing out by not getting to participate in the typical job-hunting season later on in the semester. I have to accept this job offer by mid September, so I have a lot of time, but not really enough time to get far in the interview process at any other companies.

    So what would some of you do in my position? The job offer is in line with entry level salaries in my field, and is coming with 3 weeks of PTO (no separate sick+vacation buckets). Since it’s entry level, would any of you risk declining the offer just to see if you can get something better?

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      In your position, I took the job. The peace of mind of /having/ a job that I wanted and that came with decent benefits, esp in my chosen field, was amazing. I watched classmates search for a job for a full year. That, of course, is industry-dependent. Does it offer health insurance? It matters if the benefits are standard for your industry, and also how much you value guaranteed security. But the experience of job-hunting will always be there, don’t worry …

      Do you like the work? Your boss and coworkers? The company in general? Do you /want/ to grow there? Do they offer affordable health insurance? How’s your commute? Would you kick yourself if you said no and you /didn’t/ find anything better?

    3. Close Bracket*

      If the job is a good job, then take it. Believe me, there will other chances during your career to get the job hunt experience.

    4. AeroEngineer*

      I did the same thing last year and took the job I got offered, and honestly if I hadn’t taken it, I might have been unemployed for a whole year.

      There was a slump in hiring for my specific field from January until now, so I am only now getting offers for interviews. Also, I don’t know what engineering you are in, but at least in mine, there are not many entry level positions open in general, so it is a bit brutal even getting to the interview stage.

      As being entry level in engineering, I am not sure exactly what you mean by getting “something better”. To be devil’s advocate, what happens if you turn down the job and then don’t get any other offer (as you will be competing with your other students)?

      I would advise to take it, learn as much as you can. You can always start searching again with a year of work under your belt if it really isn’t a good fit. The job search procedure can really be terrible, and you will have many chances to try it later, hopefully while you are already employed and have a paycheck.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Well, just because you accept THIS job for January start, doesn’t mean you have to be stuck with it forever!
      Personally, I would accept the sure thing (provided it’s a decent job for your career). But this doesn’t mean you can’t still participate in the “job-hunting season,” either for interviewing practice, or just to look and see what else is out there. Or, you can take the job for 6 months and then job search at your leisure at a later time. You may find you’re very happy with this job and it’s comparable to (or better than) what you’d be interviewing for.

      You never know where things will be in 6 months or a year! The economy could tank by then.

  210. Friday afternoon fever*

    In your position, I took the job. The peace of mind of /having/ a job that I wanted and that came with decent benefits, esp in my chosen field, was amazing. I watched classmates search for a job for a full year. That, of course, is industry-dependent. Does it offer health insurance? It matters if the benefits are standard for your industry, and also how much you value guaranteed security. But the experience of job-hunting will always be there, don’t worry …

    Do you like the work? Your boss and coworkers? The company in general? Do you /want/ to grow there? Do they offer affordable health insurance? How’s your commute? Would you kick yourself if you said no and you /didn’t/ find anything better?

  211. anemone*

    Mostly a vent, but if anyone has advice for how to feel less bitter about this and/or scripts that I could use to help the situation, I’d appreciate it!

    Some background first: I’m in a healthcare-related field. At my workplace we have three shifts; the morning shift works a regular M-F schedule with occasional weekends and the two after-hours shifts are on a 7 on/7 off schedule (we work a full week and are off the following week). I work the evening shift on one of these weeks. At the risk of sounding like I’m bragging, I and the people I work with on my week are great at our jobs: we work together and make sure that we’re turning out everything in a timely manner. The other week is…not. This isn’t a subjective thing, many of our clients have commented on the difference between the two weeks and our turnaround times are markedly different. This has been an ongoing problem, even before I started working here. The central problem seems to be a few workers on that week. They’ve been here for a while and have a reputation of being lazy and unwilling to help their coworkers. Management has talked to them, usually when a complaint is lodged against them, but afaik there hasn’t been any other action taken. In the meantime, new employees who start working with them either quit after getting fed up with having to juggle all the work or stop caring and go down to their level, so to say.

    This brings me to my current problem. The other week is currently short-staffed; not so much that they can’t function, but enough that the workload is a problem. My manager has gone around asking us on this week if we can start coming in one or two days on the other week (when we’re supposed to be off) to help out. I’ve been told by some of my coworkers on the morning shift that this is because the other week’s employees have been complaining to her that they can’t work well as they are. I’m sympathetic to the situation, but in the past we’ve been short-staffed to the same degree as the other week currently is and no one was asked to help us. This isn’t the first time it’s happened, either. In fact, my manager praised us the last time for “working through it without complaining.” My manager also often schedules big maintenance projects that will require a lot of follow-up work to take place on my week, because she “knows we can handle it.” It’s gotten to the point where it feels like we’re being penalized for being able to do our work while the other week is being coddled. I like my work and my coworkers, but it’s getting harder having to take on all this extra work when I know the other week won’t have to.

    1. MiloSpiral*

      …okay, my first question is, if these employees have been consistently underperforming, are *any* of them on a PIP? Obviously you wouldn’t be privy to that information because you’re not their manager, but like…. how long has this been going on?

      I can be sympathetic to problems caused by shortstaffing; my last workplace was chronically understaffed and it caused all sorts of issues. As long as this is a temporary fix while they work to hire more employees, I guess you may just have to deal for now, even though I know that sucks. But the logic of “this person is capable, so they can definitely handle more work” turns faulty when it becomes a long-term fix. You burn out good employees that way, and they end up feeling just like you are feeling–exhausted and perhaps a little used, or like your needs aren’t as important as others’. And no amount of affirming words can fix that unless there is a plan in place to improve things for the better. My bosses were extremely grateful at how flexible I was willing to be with my schedule when they needed an extra hand, but all that gratitude didn’t really change the fact that work was a stressful place to be because we didn’t have enough people on hand to get what we needed to done.

      I’m guessing your relationship with your boss is good if she’s consistently pleased with your work. Would you feel comfortable asking what the plan is for addressing the short-staffing issues on the other week’s schedule? It seems relevant to you if it is impacting your work and your life this much.

  212. Eight*

    I’m extremely late as well, but maybe someone will come across this!

    I have a contact in an industry I’d like to work in (let’s say Teapot Research) who was kind enough to look over my resume and send it to a few agencies. She came back and told me that her agency colleagues’ wanted my resume to include results I’ve achieved. This is solid feedback and makes total sense for their industry, but I currently work in a nonprofit setting that isn’t really results-based, so I’m stumped on how to do this. Most of our data analysis shows tracking toward funding targets, but when we do reach or surpass our targets, it’s not exactly a direct result of my data – it’s because of frontline staff and management. We also do a lot of survey research, but again, it pretty much just reflects levels of client satisfaction. No changes have ever been made as a result of our work that I’m aware of. Any suggestions or advice on how to spin this?

    1. OtterB*

      Can you frame your results in terms of what your work provided the organization, rather than the results the organization achieved with it? More quantifying the job description? So, you provided analysis weekly tracking progress of x development employees toward funding targets, assisting organization in achieving y. And you conducted y number of surveys of client satisfaction assisting organization in retention, etc. So, not just “I crunched these numbers” but “I crunched these numbers in support of this larger organization goal.” (This is, by the way, something I look for when interviewing early-career data analyst types. I want to know that they understand where their work fit into the larger pricture of a project.)

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I agree with OtterB. Find some sort of project or program you can frame as a result. I recently helped a good friend with this same things. For her it was something like:

      Previous:
      Managed company conference and events.
      Provided support functions for the international sales team.

      To:
      Managed xx international trade shows for per year with an annual budget of $xx.
      Provided support for a global sales team of X people, including booking travel arrangements, conference speaking engagements and serving as their media contact.

      If you do “survey research,” quantify how many surveys, what type, what you do with it. Maybe something like:
      Analyze xxx customer survey targets per year and interpret the data to identify xx qualified funding targets for additional follow-up.
      May not be perfect, but you get the drift.

  214. Chaordic One*

    I’ve written about this before but here it goes again. My employer has had no problem with finding qualified employees, but they have had to be a bit less picky about who they hire. Ideally, they prefer to hire people with a college degree and 2 to 5 years of work experience (either in the field or in a related field). These ideal hires are usually people in their 20s and 30s, a group of people that isn’t currently having problems finding good jobs.

    To cope, my employer has resorted to hiring people who are “less than ideal” in their eyes. These are people who are still qualified and can do the work, but who be considered overweight, who are older (like in their 40s or 50s), who have visible tattoos or unnaturally colored hair, who might be a person of color, who speak English as a second language and have an accent, or who might obviously be LGBT, as well as people who have related work experience, but no college degree (A college degree is nice, but not really necessary for most of the jobs at my employer.)

    Mostly, I think this is a good thing because it is making the workplace more diverse and providing employment to people who would probably otherwise be underemployed somewhere else. On the other hand, my employer has not increased salaries at all. (Just the usual 2 to 3% annual salary increase.)

    2. Close Bracket*

      > my employer has resorted to hiring people who are “less than ideal” in their eyes. These are people who are still qualified and can do the work, but who be considered overweight, who are older (like in their 40s or 50s), who have visible tattoos or unnaturally colored hair, who might be a person of color, who speak English as a second language and have an accent, or who might obviously be LGBT

      Your employer sounds like a jerk.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Yes, pretty conservative and white bread, and kind of a jerk. (Although they do make a pretense of being diverse, open and inclusive. that seems more like a P.R. thing than something that is sincere.)

        I’m pretty sure that that these nontraditional newer hires will demonstrate that they’re good workers, and I’m hoping that my employer will get used to having them around. The next big step that I see is, will these people will be promoted to higher-level jobs within the organization? I think, yes. Fortunately, our organization has some pretty good performance metrics so that promotions are largely based on merit and performance. (I’m keeping my fingers crossed that these people will be promoted on that basis.)

    3. LGC*

      Um…are you in the US? Because I’m pretty sure they’re not supposed to discriminate based on age, race, or national origin. (And in many states, sexual orientation and gender presentation.)

      Like, I’m not a lawyer, but the fact that they openly (to you at least) want to discriminate against numerous protected classes is a red flag to me. I mean, it’s good that they’re hiring people from those classes anyway, but this is a really big problem for the company if and when they do start acting on these preferences.

      (Obviously, the legal issues are different if you’re not American. I still think your employer is a jerk, though.)

    4. hmm*

      I’m wondering if you work in the same or a similar industry as me.

      While nobody outright discriminates, our job posting have words such as “athletic” “fit” “beautiful” “must fit into a size 6 or below for uniform requirements” Often times, we get uniform shirts and managers say “I only have sizes small and medium” so if one does not fit into that size, they must wear their own plain black shirt.

  215. TygerTyger*

    @Milo_Spiral and @Reba, sorry, computer is glitching and having trouble replying directly to your comments. Thank you both for the feedback. Reba, Taylor and I are both licensed, which means no requirement for supervision. I’ll have to find a different way to push back since I’m not sure they are participating in any supervision. Also, Milo_Spiral, I love Captain Awkward! TBH I’m usually fine with the direct approach but it could easily create MORE work with Taylor, in my experience. However, I do think it would be helpful to just rehearse some brush-offs so I’m not caught wrong-footed. Thank you both for giving me some additional options to consider :)

  216. Ann friend*

    Does anyone still read this thread midweek? I am confused about salary/hourly and exempt/non-exempt. Are there exempt employees paid hourly? My manager is telling me that based on Ann’s responsibilities, she is exempt. But she is paid hourly (and budgeted for 39 hrs/week) and submits a timesheet each month tracking her hours. I’m trying to figure out if Ann will ever need to be paid overtime or not.

      1. Ann friend*

        Thank you! So Ann submits a timesheet and is paid for the hours worked. There’s no set amount I pay her each pay period… sounds like we’re doing this wrong. *sigh* Is that correct?

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