open thread – August 31-September 1, 2018

by Alison Green on August 31, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Moving on*

    How do you get over the guilt of leaving a job you really like?

    I love my job and I love my coworkers but there’s no growth for me here on the timeline I want so I’ve been considering my options. I’ve had some great interviews and think there may be an offer in the pipeline at some point for a position a step up from where I currently am. This is all great for my growth and career prospects, but I’m sick to my stomach about leaving my current workplace. I love it here. It’s great. My coworkers are great, my bosses are great… how do I get over it?

    Or should I not get over it and stay put, even if it sets my career progress back a year or two, because it’s so hard to find a good place to work?

    1. Linda Evangelista*

      If its only a year or two… I might consider staying, if you know that you *will* progress in the direction you want to move in. However, if that growth isn’t a sure bet, it would be worth it to look elsewhere.

      The best advice I ever heard was to always be loyal to yourself in your career. Your company will never love you the way you love it. (I don’t mean to sound so jaded, I actually love my current job like you do! But its definitely worth looking out for yourself).

      1. Moving on*

        That’s how I ultimately feel. I had an interview yesterday that I’m really excited about but the pants of guilt and fear are getting to me. Growth here is likely, but not a sure thing. I’d be less impatient if my husband and I weren’t likely relocating in a little under three years.

        Also that whole imposter syndrome thing. I know my role here. I’m comfortable. Am I really ready for something bigger at another company?

          2. Spooky*

            I threw my pants of guilt to the wind when the job fired my boss and dramatically changed everything. Now I’m bare-legged and guilt-free.

            1. De Minimis*

              It sounds like a cursed item in Dungeons and Dragons. Pants of Guilt -5, save vs. Magic or must automatically volunteer for all/any quests.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          How long have you been there?

          I was kind of in this situation when I left my previous job and there were a few irritating things that did spur on my looking, but I definitely struggled with the decision. However, I am very grateful that I did move on when I did.

      2. College Career Counselor*

        What I tell my students (and colleagues) all the time is that “No one is going to care as much about your professional development as you do.” Or as you should. 1-2 additional years (depending on how long you’ve been there already) may not seem like much, but you may become stagnant. I say this as someone who stayed too long in the first job after college because it was a great place to work. That definitely had an impact on my professional trajectory.

        Besides, if you leave to gain new skills/experience, perhaps you will be better positioned to return at a higher level in the future.

    2. Afiendishthingy*

      You’re in a great position where you can really be selective about what offers you accept, because turning them down doesn’t leave you unemployed or in a miserable job. But don’t turn down a great opportunity just for the sake of your coworkers and bosses. They want you to grow, too!

      I stayed too long in a role that was wrong for me because I had such great relationships with my coworkers. We were all sad to say goodbye, but me leaving was the right thing to do.

      1. BlueWolf*

        Agreed. You’re in the best position because you are not desperate to leave your current position, so you can take the time to evaluate all your options and hopefully get an offer that will be even better than your current job. I was in a similar situation where I liked my coworkers and didn’t completely hate my job, but there was absolutely no room for growth (it was a small business).

      2. in the same boat*

        Yes, this!

        When I applied for my future job, I was almost sick about the thought of giving notice to my boss. She’s been great! But… I realized that one of the things that was attractive about the new job is that it’s doing all the things I like, without some of the things I don’t like in my current role. My boss was understanding, and things roll onward.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      There’s never a fully good choice here. I left a job I loved years ago, and I still miss it. But, because I left, I also grew a lot professionally in ways I likely would not have been able to in that job, and I’ve been happier (job-wise) in different ways, even though I still wonder what my life would have been like if I’d stayed. Just know that if you stayed, you’d wonder what might have been, and if you leave, you’ll wonder why you left. There’s no winning if you look at it through that lens.

    5. notaparalegal*

      Have you discussed your desire for growth with your manager? If s/he doesn’t know you’re interested, it might be worth bringing up. I left a job and coworkers I enjoyed because my (awkward) discussions about career growth with my manager never led to any change, and I didn’t get fully licensed in my state to stay in the role I was in. I was sad to leave my coworkers, but the fact that my manager didn’t even follow up with me about the discussions we had (and just said okay when I put in my notice), made it *much* easier to leave. I’m still in touch with a few of my closest coworkers but much happier in my new role!

      1. Moving on*

        I have, but I’m bottlenecked by the people above me. There’s no room for growth until someone moves on, and I don’t know when that will happen. I could potentially move to one of our subsidiaries, but that’s not guaranteed either.

        1. notaparalegal*

          Fair enough. In that case, I would second others’ advice to search with the security that you can be extremely selective if you choose to make a change. Is there any room for you to learn new things/take on new challenges/expand your knowledge and experience even within your current role? That can help build your knowledge base which will serve you well in a new role, wherever that may be.

        2. Empty Sky*

          Late to this one, but here is my suggestion in case you’re still reading:

          My suggestion would be to keep going with the job search, and if you find one that looks good and meets your requirements, try to leave your current role on good terms. Be up front about your reasons. Tell them all the things you told us about how great the workplace is. Then keep in touch!

          One of the things I’ve noticed about high quality workplaces is that you never really leave. Often there is an ‘alumni network’ of people who will keep in touch and even do business together. It’s very common at my current employer for ex-employees to be hired back again if their circumstances or ours change. An earlier employer ran into business challenges and ended up closing down, and the managers all went on to other things – some starting their own businesses and others heading up divisions at larger companies. Most of them ended up hiring their ex-colleagues to varying degrees, and the end result was that the business effectively split into maybe half a dozen factions across as many companies, all of which had re-created the best features of the culture to some degree.

    6. RachelTW*

      If you are talking about waiting an extra year or two for the progress you want, as opposed to say having to wait five or 10 years, I would be hesitant to leave in your shoes (full disclosure: I don’t have ambitious career advancement goals). But I left a job I loved with a great boss and great coworkers for a geographical change, and I still miss that old job. The next one was a nightmare. My current job is pretty decent, but just not quite as good as the old one (though I do need to remember I make 30% more now than I did at OldJob. So, I know what it’s like to be less than satisfied after what you thought was going to be a good move.

    7. YetAnotherGenXDevManager*

      Today is my last day at a job with a team who I really loved (my bosses not so much, but the team I manage is incredible). It is incredibly bittersweet.

      I am still leaving. Because I got a significant raise, a better commute, many many more women in leadership and a clear path on how to get higher up, and it positions me for where I want to be going forward. I’m worried I could hate it, but the skills I would develop by sticking it out for at least a year will position me well for whatever the position after that is.

      If you’re in a position, as I was, to be incredibly picky, I say stay open to opportunities. As I’m nearing mid-career (20 years in the software industry) I am no longer willing to set my progress back a year or two, or even risk that it is only a year or two.

    9. AnotherAlison*

      If it is the same type of company and work, then I might consider staying and trying to accelerate your career there. (If it’s a 10-person company with slow growth, that may not be possible, of course). If it’s actually growth=a lot more money at a new job, then you probably have to consider taking something new. Same if it is growth=learning a side of the industry or new industry that isn’t available where you’re at. For me, taking a new role would only be considered if it brought something that I could NEVER get at my company experience-wise, or a lot more money.

      1. Moving on*

        I work at a F500 in corporate and am looking to move a step up the ladder to another F500 in corporate. I can expect a roughly 40-50% raise.

        1. Harriet*

          I moved earlier in the year from a job I found frustrating because there wasn’t much growth but with coworkers I loved to pieces, to a job with a clearer path and a 40% pay rise. I won’t lie, the first couple of months were seriously rough. I missed my old colleagues intensely and felt like I’d made a huge mistake, and the culture of the new place is such that I don’t expect to make close friends here.

          With a bit of distance though, 6 months on I’m so glad I made the move. I was starting to stagnate in my old role and very frustrated by continually being told a promotion was in the works and then having the prospect removed, and that would only have got worse. Feeling valued and paid well in my new role is also a huge positive. And I’m still in touch with several people from my last job.

          My advice would be to think really hard about how you feel at work day to day, the role your colleagues play in your life, and how you’d manage without that. I knew I’d basically reached BEC with my boss and the never-quite-appearing promotion and I didn’t like the frustrated and negative person I was turning into. I also talked to someone I knew within the new organisation who gave me the good and bad of it – it wasn’t as friendly and warm as I was used to, but it wasn’t dysfunctional and nightmarish either. And with that I decided to make the move, and I’m very happy I did.

        2. AnotherAlison*

          I’d leave. No question. I wouldn’t entertain a counter, but I’d work to leave on great terms. Maybe your current employer would want to steal you back for a higher role and you can get another bump to come back in a few years if you don’t like the new place as much.

    11. Beth Anne*

      I’m in the same boat. I LOVE my job. It’s flexible, great people, doing what I love, working with my husband..but the pay is horrible. Last year I asked for a raise and they only gave me half of what I asked for. I’ve been looking since but not finding a whole lot. But at the same time I feel bad for leaving as no one else knows how to do my job. But I need to better my own career.

      1. Quackeen*

        I felt bad leaving my long-term job because no one else knew how to do what I did, but they managed. I’d been telling them for 3 years that it was unwise to have me be the single point of failure for a couple of programs and systems, but they had to learn that on their own.

        Hope you find something soon!

      2. Beth Anne*

        I know that is what everyone says…that my job doesn’t need me as much as I think they do. The plus side is it allows me to be picky on a new position.

    12. Alternative Person*

      I think it’s important to remember that you’re moving on/looking to move on for a good reason.

      At my current main job, I have a lot of really great clients but there are literally no growth options (for various, long winded, irritating co-worker and management reasons). As much as I feel bad about transitioning out by degrees, ultimately I decided to do whats best for my long term career/growth.

      I’d say be selective and take a good offer when it comes along. Maybe it’ll work out, maybe it won’t but you can’t let yourself be controlled by your guilt about leaving people behind.

    13. Probably Nerdy*

      I left a job that I really loved, in order to grow myself (I went to graduate school). It was really sad but I dealt with it by just being as positive as I could about the change to all my colleagues so they knew it was nothing about them and everything about the opportunity. I stayed in touch with them, which helped, and made sure to keep them part of my network long-term.

      I would be lying if I said that the choice was an easy one, but given that I have a decade of perspective now makes it seem easy when it wasn’t.

    14. in the same boat*

      Hello person who could be me a few months ago!

      I have a great job that I love (except for some pieces of it), amazing coworkers, etc., and my last day is next Thursday.

      I chose to leave because the opportunity really was great – and as I examined it, I really wanted to work at my new location. However, I genuinely will miss my current role – especially the people. I’m valued here, but I know it’s the right choice. There was a recent NYT article about job grieving (linked in my username) that I found really helpful.

      1. trilusion*

        Thanks, interesting to read. I just gave notice for december 31st and will start my new job in february which will give me enough time to train my replacement – but I‘m kind of afraid how I will feel over the course of the next months! I‘m already beginning to miss some colleagues even though I‘m still there.

        1. Dramatic Squirrel*

          I was in your position and decided to stay for one more year for the sake of my team. Some company changes and people changes later and the dynamic is totally different. I have regretted staying nearly every day since. 5 more months and I am moving on and literally counting the days.

    15. Project Manager*

      I just left my first, beloved job and am two weeks into a new position. I left for about the same reasons as you – the advancement and salary offers just weren’t developing the way that I wanted at my last position. I sobbed on my last day at my old job; cried the entire drive home. That said, I am in full agreement with the other poster that said your job will never love you and much as you love it – a company may be great, but ultimately their loyalties don’t lie with me. If push came to shove, they’d shove me out the door no matter how good I am or how much I love them. That’s the reality of the business world.

      I’m really lucky – my new coworkers and new boss at New Job are (so far) awesome. I was also able to be really selective about my new position since I wasn’t in a race to get out of Old Job. I did carefully leave all my bridges very much intact so I know the door is open if I decided down the road that I wanted to return.

      Also, remember that coworkers and bosses leave – either for other opportunities, family relocation, life circumstances, etc. The only constant in life is that everything changes. Those relationships are important and should be a consideration, but not the #1 factor because there is absolutely no guarantee that they’ll remain as-is.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      As some already pointed out TPTB will never love you as much as you love your job. This is super important to keep at the forefront of your thinking.

      Right now is the hardest time to think about this because you have no idea what you are moving toward. Once you get an actual new job this will change the picture some.

      Be absolutely sure that the new job has what you want. Get yourself something that is better in some way. Uh, probably in several ways. It’s going to need several positives to give you incentive to leave what you have now.

      Just because you don’t LOVE the next job like you do this one does NOT mean it’s all bad. It’s not a good/bad thing rather it’s a sliding scale.

    17. Jady*

      I’m currently working the last few days of my 2-week notice period at my current job and about to move on to a new one. While I have issues with my current job, I have always liked my coworkers and the environment here, and I will miss that. I’ve stayed here much longer than I should have because of those factors, honestly.

      In the end I’ve just reminded myself: it’s a job. If they didn’t pay me, I wouldn’t be here. I work for a paycheck so I can live a better life, save, retire asap. So I need to follow the paycheck and professional growth (within reason).

    18. Anonishinaugust*

      In the scheme of things, a year or two isn’t that extreme. However I still think you should be open to interviews and other possibilities. I had to do an annual review this month that got sticky because I had to say that I didn’t see a clear path to a title change for one of my staff. And truthfully I think she would be better served by going to a different organization but she really enjoys our team and the org mission.

    19. Susan*

      Your boss and your co-workers will be happy for you if you move on, if they are as awesome as you think they are. You can still keep connections with them — it doesn’t have to mean goodbye forever. And you never know – you might be working together again in the future.

    20. Debonairess*

      How much of current job being great is due to having a good manager? If your manager announced they were leaving after you had turned down an opportunity to leave, how would that make you feel? If the answer if “terrible!” then IMO you should consider moving on when you have the chance. Good managers are hard to find, but they are also in demand and you never know when they will leave. Don’t sacrifice personal development for the hope that one individual will stay in their role.
      If it’s a wider cultural fit that you love then maybe it’s worth waiting for a GREAT offer rather than just a good one.

    21. MissDisplaced*

      I left a job I loved. But I didn’t have guilt because they had moved to an expensive downtown city and the company was really changing. It was hard though, because I really didn’t ‘want’ to leave, but couldn’t live with the changes.

      If you really love it there, but don’t see room to progress in your career it might be worthwhile talking to your manager before you decide to bounce. It could be possible there is something opening up you don’t know about and/or additional responsibilities you could take on. And I would definitely frame it that way: as additional responsibilities.

      But sometimes you just have to accept it’s time to move on when looking at the bigger picture.
      On the plus side, you can sort of take your time at deciding what you want for your next job as there is no rush.

    22. Scubacat*

      I suppose one question to ask is if you want growth. Not everyone does, and that’s okay. For example, my mother has worked at the same job for 25 years. She is totally content, and doesn’t want to have a new role with more responsibilities.

      Let’s say that your answer is yes. It’s okay to move on from a great job when you’ve outgrown it.

    23. Windchime*

      I’m so glad to see your question because I was going to ask something very similar. I have a job that I love, a wonderful manager, and a great team. The pay is not terrible and the benefits are amazing. The commute is horrible, though. I may have an opportunity to move to a smaller town with a lower cost of living, doing similar work. The pay would also be lower. I’m later in my career as I will probably retire in around 5 years, so my dilemma is more of a question of……is it worth it to move in order to have a slower-paced life? It’s definitely something I am pondering.

    24. Gloucesterina*

      If your colleagues and bosses care about you as a person, they will be happy to see you choosing the next step in your career.

    25. Mrs. D*

      I was in your shoes almost 2 years ago. I had a job I liked that I was good at, I worked with great colleagues, and I loved the kids (it was an elementary school). I had the opportunity to move to a different position at another school, this time a high school. It was a tough decision personally because while I would be making more money, I would have to leave behind a lot of what I loved. I would also be making the shift mid-year, which added extra guilt. But this was an opportunity that wouldn’t come back around for several years at the least, possibly much longer.

      I decided to jump, and you know what? It worked out okay for me and for them. Of course, I missed everyone terribly at first, but I developed great working relationships with the staff at the new school, and got to know a whole new group of really great kids. And the school I left is fine. They got another great person in my old position. Every so often I see some of my old students while I’m out and about, and it just warms my heart to hear how they’re doing. The world didn’t end then, and it won’t end if you decide to leave. Your company will move on. And if you love your coworkers, there’s nothing saying you can’t stay in touch with them and develop those relationships into true friendships. It’ll work out.

      And I would hate for you to miss an amazing opportunity at another job because you were afraid to take the leap–you’ll never soar if you don’t.

    26. motherofdragons*

      I was where you are now, about four years ago. I loved my team, my manager, the culture, the location, everything, but there just wasn’t a growth path that made me happy. So I took a promotion elsewhere. What helped at the time was just keeping my goals in mind: career growth, new opportunities and pathways, and frankly, more money. The job I took would up sucking, but I stuck it out for a year and a half and gained useful experience and connections. One of those connections led me directly into the position I hold now, at a different organization, and I’m feeling happy and successful here. And, I still keep in touch with my former coworkers and manager, and can count on them for positive references and moral support. I think if you can stay focused, and trust that it will all work out, hopefully four years from now you’ll be in a similar spot!

    27. Triple Anon*

      What part(s) are you feeling bad about? Is it more that you’ll be leaving them and maybe letting them down or is it more that you’ll miss working there? If it’s more about them, I wouldn’t worry about it. If you get a great offer, they’ll understand. And if it’s more about you, just look at the big picture and do what’s best. But either way, keep in touch with them.

      Is there any chance you could come back later? Could the organization possibly grow? Could there be an opening in a more leadership type of role later on? I mean five or ten years down the line. Could you do something like consulting or freelancing for them at a later date?

      Also! I left a great job once. I had moved from a rural area to a high COL city. It was an amazing job! The best job I’ve ever had! But the pay was just above minimum wage. At first, I was paying a tiny amount of rent to sleep on a couch in a house with four roommates. But one of them didn’t want a couch surfer. I tried living with family and that was a nightmare. I got offered a room in a house with a co-worker, but the move in date got pushed back while family stuff got worse and I finally couldn’t do it anymore. I moved back to the small town. I don’t think anyone I worked with knew how much I was struggling to find a place to live. They seemed surprised and kind of let down when I left. I still feel bad about it. I wish I could have made ends there on what they were able to pay me, or had better luck finding a place to live. It’s hard to find that middle ground between letting people know what’s going on in your life and not getting overly personal or involving people in your problems too much.

    28. Chaordic One*

      This is one of those situations where you need a crystal ball. I was one of the people who thought I was happy and turned down a good offer to stay put in a “meh” job, but with great coworkers and supervisors. Thing is, after another year or so, the coworkers and bosses that I got along with so well all started leaving and their replacements were not so great. In retrospect, I sure wish I had taken the offer instead of staying put.

  2. Moth*

    One of my greatest frustrations with where I work has been that there isn’t good clarification around goals and direction of things. And since I work in product development, having a mission for the department or some guidance at all around what the long term directions are would be very helpful. In the few years I’ve been here though, I’ve learned to adapt some to it and to get my job done without much guidance. But I remember in my first year and a half, going to my boss frustrated so many times asking to please have some input on where to take things. I swore that when I had an employee, I would be better about not letting them twirl in the wind.

    Cut to this week, when my employee came to me, frustrated, asking for guidance around what to work on. I have tried to be more proactive with my employee around setting career goals and such, but I know that I haven’t been good about giving guidance on the mission of our team and how to find projects to work on within that mission. This was a wake-up call for me though that I need to be more proactive about it. Does anyone have any suggestions for setting missions and directions for your own team when you’re not getting any guidance from above yourself?

    1. Kimmo*

      I’m really intrigued by this, but I’d love more details! Is the idea that folks should be coming up with ideas for new products, finding existing products to work on/improve, join projects being developed in other departments, something else?

      1. Moth*

        It’s actually a little bit of all of those. The team I’m on does a mix of early-stage research and new product development. So we come up with ideas for new products, coordinate research to establish if those ideas are viable, then develop those new products. Among that we work with other departments to move the projects along and will receive requests from those departments to improve existing products. I was able to find my footing with a few different projects and take the lead on them, so the bulk of my time is spent on those. The employee I lead is more on the early-stage research side though, so it’s difficult for this individual to know where to focus research around without direction. The company is still relatively young and the first “generation” of employees was able to focus their work around a handful of product ideas. But now the department and company have grown and it’s time for new direction, but management at the top doesn’t really know how to do that since they’ve never had to before. So the decision of what to work on gets pushed down the management chain, despite the top management still being responsible for the final go/no-go on products. It’s a little dysfunctional in that way, but overall it’s a good company that is trying to do right by their employees, they just don’t know how. So I’m stuck at the bottom of that chain, trying not to pass the dysfunction on to my employee, but not having the authority to make the official call on decisions.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          Based on this I see 4 key areas:
          1. ideas for new products
          2. coordinate research to establish if those ideas are viable
          3. develop new products
          4. requests from departments to improve existing products

          So, if your employee is on the early-stage research side, one thing I see is that those “requests” probably ought to be more proactive! Said employee needs to be engaging with those departments on a regular basis to conduct product improvement analysis.

          I don’t do the same type of work, but one thing I did was to engage all of my company’s “experts” to pull from them what is current/of interest to customers in their area of expertise, get 3-4 (topics, ideas, pain points, problems, whatever fits) from each of them, and then use that to create a calendar/schedule/plan prioritized by me first, (then approved by management) which I would proceed to act on. Doing this led to fulfilling #2 and usually #1 and #3. And #4… well things always need to be revised and improved in my field, so the cycle begins anew after awhile with deciding to revise or discard “products.”

          Where you come in is making sure your employee gets access to key people in these departments, and has your oversight in creating a viable action plan your upper management can bless with good conscience as it’s backed by all of those “experts” within your company as being important stuff that needs to get done.

    2. J.B.*

      If you look around, what really needs to happen? What new products do you think you need to be working on? Maybe write that up and then ask for approval/guidance?

    3. OhGee*

      That’s a tough one. I don’t do the same type of work as you, but I am charged with making new initiatives come to life (at a nonprofit). When management doesn’t have clear goals, it can be hard to direct your own work, let alone someone else’s. That said, can you take time to set a few high level goals for your team? What do you want to accomplish in the next year? Can you write down how that could break down in to smaller tasks on a weekly or monthly basis? Or if your projects are all handed down from management, can you do essentially the same thing for your projects?

    4. Nesprin*

      This is a huge opportunity for you to set your department’s goals! There’s nothing like words on paper to crystallize nebulous ideas and goals into something concrete. I think you could come up with 3 proposals to run by upper management for what the next 5 years would look like- they’ll probably hate all of them but at least then you have a starting point for your department’s plan and insight to how the higher ups see your work.

      1. Moth*

        That’s a really great point and a nice way to look at it! Upper management is usually pretty open to input and ideas (they don’t often follow through on them, but they like to hear them), so this would be a nice opportunity to make it clear that my team is thinking long-term. And even if they don’t advance with them, it gives my team some focus, as well as some goal posts come annual review time.

    5. mrs_helm*

      Two thoughts:
      1. Communicate early and often. Tell your team x was discussed at meeting, or y is what competitor is doing. Then they can use that to weight their decisions on what to work on .
      2. Develop a team culture that values the experience and proof of concept, not only what goes live. Many times I learned how to do something from an experiment that never got used, but what I learned got used later.

    6. Competent Commenter*

      I think you’ve gotten great advice already. I have a different perspective to throw into the mix. In my role as a communications person, I really need to know what the priorities are. There’s way too much to cover, so I look to our leadership for big-picture advice. “What really matters this year is the ways that llamas are succeeding, cows are producing, and horses are training.” Then when the stuff about pigs, sheep and goats comes up, I can still put it out over social media but I know to bump it for llamas, cows and horses.

      Can you provide that kind of guidance? Maybe you prioritize new products, or more research, etc. So at least there’s SOME guidance on how to approach one’s day.

      And I also agree that this is an opportunity for you and your team to shine. Are there unmet needs? Ways that things could be done more efficiently? Can you research the opposition and provide guidance? etc. This chaos means that you might be able to stand out.

  3. Afiendishthingy*

    So I accepted the job I got offered so quickly last week, and I already started! Now just gotta work through the new job anxiety/buyer’s remorse- I’m a behavior specialist working in special education, and I didn’t fully realize the population I’d be working with in this role. It’s a difficult population for me and not one I’ve worked with much at all before. But I figure at the very least I have enough experience and skills from other jobs to transfer to being ok here, I will learn a lot, and maybe after a year I’ll be able to transfer internally to something a little closer to my comfort zone.

    And I got a surprise paycheck yesterday and we are off today, so can’t complain about that!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It is rough work, in terms of seeing heart-breaking stuff and in terms of the constraints of the job- regs, money, manpower, etc can make the job feel very short on resources. You can work into it. Give yourself some time to acclimate and learn what is available. Also if you can find a way to meet with other professionals to see what they are doing that will be time well spent.
      I worked in human services for 10 plus years only with adults. (Direct care level.) I got a good leg up by being sure to talk with my cohorts around me to find out background, what works and what doesn’t. I think they said 6 months for a behavior plan, as in, a good behavior plan lasts 6 months then it does not work anymore and a new one is needed.
      I remember my first year on the job FLEW by, there was so much coming at me. I went home super tired every night from just all the new stuff. Give yourself at least 4-6 months for stuff to even start to make sense.

      1. Afiendishthingy*

        Yeah I’ve got about 10 years of experience in the field as a whole, 4 years post masters/BCBA. I’m very comfortable working with individuals with intellectual disabilities, moderate to severe developmental disabilities, significant communication fisabilities etc with severe challenging behaviors — but this group is much more social/emotional challenges, some trauma histories, without the severe intellectual impairment or communication disabilities. Very different kind of challenge. I know I’ll adjust but I’m freaking out a bit at the moment. Also doesn’t help at all that our classroom is unairconditioned and it was 96 degrees on Wednesday.

        1. Double A*

          If you get a chance to do some work about trauma informed teaching practices that might be really helpful to you! Behavior is communication no matter what the population, but it’s source is different with trauma kids.

          I work with populations with high levels of trauma and it’s incredibly rewarding. Relationships become more important.

  4. Fantasma*

    My company is in its annual performance review cycle, and I need advice on how to approach a situation involving an old teammate — let’s call her Claire. I transferred in late spring so part of my review will be on work from my previous team. Because I’d been there a few years, I had a lot of institutional knowledge so when I left I wrote a detailed guide with some info that didn’t exist anywhere else (like verbal explanations from teammates who left before anyone on the current team joined). It took quite a bit of time and I had my grandboss review it since my then-boss was out of office on my last day.

    Claire later edited my guidebook by adding her name and tweaking maybe 5% of the content and told the team (including new hires) that she had written the whole thing. Existing team members knew it wasn’t true, but didn’t want to say anything so they wouldn’t bias the new hires. Claire is known for this (except to management), and I deliberately made a separate copy for my own records and for my performance review, which is completely managed by my new department.

    I know I’ll get full credit in my new department, but it bothers me that Claire is claiming she wrote the whole thing and will get a great review based on my work. It’s plagiarism, which is clear from the file’s audit trail (including 100% of the original file being done by me while she was on vacation out of the country). But there’s no reason anyone would look at that for her performance review. What should I do?

    1. Someone Else*

      Speak up, in a matter of fact way. You can ask how everyone is liking the guidebook you left behind for Claire and the rest of them team to reference and utilize, without accusing her of plagiarism.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I like this. Gives the opportunity for it to be brought up and made clear that it was not Claire’s work.

      2. M. Albertine*

        +1
        You can say you’re gathering information for your performance review, and would like feedback on how well it’s working, what could have been done better, etc.

        1. Shark Whisperer*

          Ooo, I really like this. You’re bringing it to their attention but completely innocently

    2. Linda Evangelista*

      My instinct is to throw her under the bus. But like, professionally? Its your hard work, and you deserve the credit.

    3. Notthemomma*

      I would suggest a quick meeting with her old manager and let them know you ‘heard’ that this may be the case and wouldn’t want them to be assigning rankings based on Work that was not theirs. Keep it high-level so it doesn’t look like a personal attack. And be prepared with your documentation and the reference to the manager who did review it.

    4. Phoenix Programmer*

      I would drop it personally. It’s not likely that a decent manager will believe she put it together.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        Plus it will kind of look like you are too invested in your old role and can reflect poorly on you.

      2. The Doctor*

        From the post, it seems that senior management is clueless (at least about Claire) and already believes that Claire wrote the guidebook, so they will believe that OP is trying to steal Claire’s credit.

    5. BenAdminGeek*

      If it’s not hurting your review, I wouldn’t get involved. Unless your manager and Claire’s are going to compare notes and say “you both say you wrote this” then what’s the end goal of raising it? Claire’s clearly garbage, but her peers know that.

      If it is going to hurt your review, then I would add to your self-evaluation the work you did, share the details with your manager and ensure you get credit. You’ve got the timestamps to prove it if needed.

    6. Kathenus*

      I’d suggest documenting that you created the guidebook as one of your accomplishments in your performance review comments/notes, and offering or giving your manager a copy of it during your review meeting. That way you have it as a discussion point in your review, it’s noted in the document, and you make sure your manager knows your role. You don’t even need to bring up Claire. She’ll out herself to the rest of the team members in due course, I assume.

    7. LadyByTheLake*

      Simply present your work during your review WITH NO MENTION OF CLAIRE. If someone mentions that they thought that she did the work, just respond with confusion “no, this is my work, I drafted it on X date. Maybe she added some edits after that.” Make no further comment.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        I think this is probably the best option if your review is not dependent on the project.
        But I’m fairly used to this as I write for a team and they get the credit/byline as the authors even though they’re really reviewing and editing. But my reviews reflect my work on everything, it’s just not public.

    8. Jady*

      You say ‘Claire is known for this except to management’. That’s a problem management needs to know about – reviews and whatever aside.

    9. dramalama*

      My instinct is that in a performance review you want to be really focused on *your* work and accomplishments. Show the guidebook, stay focused on what experience and value you bring to your current role and team. I worry that Claire would be a distraction– I totally get why it’s bothering you, but I feel like unless you have an actual need to bring her up (to explain how she affected your performance) she shouldn’t get to take up valuable time that’s meant for you.

  5. ThatGirl*

    I posted a little while back that I’m basically responsible for training our new hire after my team lead left abruptly (was let go). I don’t really mind in general but she seems to think I’m her manager now. It’s a little weird. Our actual current manager (dept head) asked our other coworker to do some training with her, and New Lady ran it by me first! To make sure it was OK! But on the other hand, I am sort of “leading the team” right now. Sort of an awkward spot to be in.

    1. RachelTW*

      If it’s making you feel awkward, I would think you could absolutely say something to new girl along these lines:
      “Hey, I am acting as an interim team lead right now, so you should come to me about X, Y, Z, but for A, B, and C, you can just go straight to Manager. Oh, and also, please don’t worry about clearing Yadda Yadda with me, go with whatever Belinda or Derick tells you.”

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, I’ve tried to reinforce that Dept Head is truly *our* joint manager now, and that CoWorker has been here a lot longer than me, will also be training her, and has great institutional knowledge! But if this sort of weirdness keeps up I’ll definitely be more firm about it.

      2. Lil Fidget*

        Agree, this is so, so common.In some jobs there really are dotted-line relationships with de facto managers who may not be your paper boss, and the new person isn’t sure if this is that kind of job or not.
        You can just calmly explain that you’re not their supervisor, so there are many things they need to run by Yvonne or whatever. Neewbs don’t know, and the person giving them day to day instruction feels like their boss until they hear otherwise.

    2. Murphy*

      Definitely clarify that with her, because it might not be obvious! I had a job once where I thought there was one supervisor, but there was actually also an assistant supervisor, and I honestly didn’t know that because nobody had actually explained the department structure to me.

    3. Phoenix Programmer*

      I would just clarify that Boss is in charge so any items from her should be a priority. Then let her know you are available to help with questions she may have on getting them complete.

    4. Youth*

      I’m a content writer and thus the lowest-ranking member of my team. A couple of years ago, a guy was hired onto the team in the position above me. The new hire’s would-be manager was out of the country for his first week or so, and the other man on the team who was the new hire’s peer dumped the new hire on me. (Said peer had a habit of dumping ALL his work on me, but that’s another story for another day.)

      With that fun responsibility in my lap, I had to coach the new hire through his first few assignments and on the basics of some of the in-house tools. It led to him…sort of imprinting on me? Kind of like that P. D. Eastman book “Are You My Mother?” except “Are You My Manager?”. It took him at least six months to realize that he was technically one of my supervisors.

      Sounds kind of similar. You might want to explain the hierarchy of the department to your new hire if you think this is going to be a potential problem. Although if you sort of are the manager right now, then maybe it doesn’t matter.

      1. ThatGirl*

        This will all get cleared up, hopefully, when we get a new team lead. But for now I’m more or less running our team and I was already designated her “training buddy,” so it’s a little ambiguous. I just don’t want her to think nobody else can give her direction or training. If it continues to be awkward, I’ll definitely be more clear on hierarchy.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          The times this has happened to me it is because no one else is training the person. Instead of telling her that others can train her, perhaps ask her if she got the specific training from Joe or Sue. What has happened to me in the past is Joe and Sue can also train but they refuse to, are not available, or are poor trainers. This could be why this is happening. If she is very new to the work force she may not want to tell you anything about this scenario, if indeed this is what is happening.

          1. ThatGirl*

            No, I appreciate the thought but that’s not it. She sits directly in front of me and I’ve been assigning work so I think she’s just a little unclear on reporting. She’s 60ish and not new to the workforce.

    5. Jady*

      This happened to me in my early days. Someone was training me and I just assumed. It’s fine to just say “Hey in case you don’t know, X is your boss, you should run things like this by him instead.”

      2. Dramatic Squirrel*

        That’s what we call them at work…ducklings. They imprint on somebody and turn to them for everything

  6. Snark*

    So…..I really like my new job. Huge step up in responsibility, more complex and interesting duties, lots of variety, lots of fires to put out. I kind of needed a new challenge. And I get to do stuff besides stan at my desk all day! On any given day, I might be hauling hazardous waste drums, hiking out to a proposed construction site to survey for cultural resources, counting invasive plants down in the arroyo. Good times.

    My boss is generally pretty good so far – we’re basically the same age range, so it’s hard not to think of her as a peer, but otherwise I don’t foresee any major issues. She shares my generally flexible approach to work hours, scheduling, and is also a parent – so she’s understanding of small emergencies.

    And it’s good to be back to work, honestly. My two-month gap was relaxing, but I was starting to chase my tail at the end of it, and I like being busy. I’m just glad I was able to stick a reasonably smooth transition between layoff and next thing, without incurring a brutal commute or having to move.

    1. Snark*

      All that said, man, starting 45 minutes earlier with a 15-20 minute longer commute is really harshing my mornings. As someone who likes to sit meditatively with a cup of chai for 30 minutes, the hectic morning jam is not that enjoyable. I’ve GOT to start packing a lunch, laying out clothes, and otherwise prepping in the evenings. Bluh.

      I also need to invest in a radar detector, because once I get out on the two-laner country roads out to my new workplace, I tend to…..expedite things. My tiny, ludicrous orange commuter vehicle is conspicuous to law enforcement.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        In the meantime could also download Waze. People report if they’ve seen cops. (It’s not as accurate, but it might give you an idea where they hide.)

        1. Snark*

          That’s a good idea! Also, depending on traffic and accidents, there’s two very different routes to get here, and Waze is usually good at avoiding big slowdowns.

        2. it_guy*

          In Waze, you can also set a time that you want to be at work by, and based on the current travel it will tell you when to start.

        3. LCL*

          For those of you who must use WAZE, please, please, please, I beg of you:
          Don’t be the driver feebing along at 5mph below the posted speed limit on an arterial, when there aren’t any cars in front of you, slowing and then speeding up at each intersection. Getting stuck behind a WAZE wobbling wanderer on a particular two line divided arterial can add 5 minutes to my morning commute.

          2. anna green*

            Ha, okay I have to ask, I use Waze all the time… what is feebing and what is a wobbing wanderer?

          3. Turquoisecow*

            I use Waze, but I don’t think I’ve done this and I don’t understand why Waze would contribute to the driving style you describe.

            1. LCL*

              A feeb is a made up word, used to describe someone driving along at least 5mph below the posted speed limit, when there isn’t any traffic and no safety reason to slow down.

              I believe WAZE or GPS use causes this type of driving. Though it didn’t become noticeable in my area until marijuana became legal. This isn’t freeway driving, this style is performed on an arterial. The driver will be moving forward below the speed limit, slowing slightly at each intersection, with one eye on their device. This can go on for a WAZE. This interaction is finished by the driver doing a quick hard turn, often without signaling, when their device says turn here.

              1. AdminX2*

                Actually “feeb” is a slur made from “feeble minded” and was used in past decades as a bullying insult. It may have transmuted to this more modern specific context, but do be aware of the history.

              2. Observer*

                This has nothing to do with Waze. And, I can’t imagine why you would think the two things are in any way related.

                Marijuana use probably has a LOT more to do with it, although there can be a lot of reasons for this kind of very poor driving. It’s also been around long before Waze existed, and before in car GPS became normal in individual, non-commercial vehicles.

                The one time I was in a car with driving similar to that, it was a combination of a back seat driver with a skewed version of what “safe driving” looks like. Fortunately, someone had the kindness to pull us over and explain to the driver (if full earshot of the backseat driver) that this kind of driving is a recipe for an accident. FYI – this happened over 25 years ago.

      2. OhGee*

        I hear you. Transitioning to earlier days, with less time to relax before work, is rough! I did it about six months ago, when I bought an affordable home an hour drive/train from my office, and I still struggle to prep the night before. But the job itself sounds great!

      3. Lurker*

        I use Waze! It’s really great and shows you where all the cops are. Super helpful on my long commute.

      4. Woodswoman*

        Sounds like a smooth transition for you, despite the early morning adjustment. It’s great to hear you’ve landed in a place doing varied and satisfying work. Reading your post makes me miss my park ranger days. I may return to that work as a seasonal ranger some day when I retire from full-time work.

    2. Nita*

      That sounds pretty good! My job is like that, and it’s the best thing about it. Not being cooped up in the office all the time is great. Of course, my field work does come with weird hours and heavy lifting (and lots of worrying about where to park the car in my neighborhood), so there’s that to balance out the good stuff…

    3. What’s with today, today?*

      Come visit us in Texas. We’re battling Giant Salvinia in my neck of the woods. It’s a brutal, brutal fight. Glad you are loving the job!

      1. Snark*

        Oh yeah – I’ve heard of that from other natural resources folks down there. Invasive weeds is my research background, so I looooove killin’ me some weeds.

  7. Help*

    I’m at major BEC stage with my coworker. She and I work together unfortunately, so I can’t avoid her.

    Anyways, I’m taking a half day off for the holiday weekend. I told her in advance, so she knows. She brought it up yesterday and I told her that I was traveling to see a sick friend. Coworker then says, “Why can’t you go on Saturday instead?”

    I followed Alison/readers’ advice and did the “What do you mean?” (I thought she would stop talking about it. Did it help? No, she continued to talk.)

    She then goes into how I should leave early Saturday and go then, blah blah. I just said that it wasn’t possible. Why is it any of her business? The boss approved it, so who cares?

    Anytime I take time off, she gets upset. Yet she will be gone the whole month in November and that’s okay. If her friends are taking off, that’s okay because they’re her friends.

    Any advice?

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      No advice, just commiseration. I get “punished” by a coworker if I deign to take time off.

      I cope by turning it into a fun (mental) game. And privately roll my eyes at the ridiculousness of it.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I’d be tempted to ask why it matters to her. But that may come out kinda snarky or mean.

      “It’s my PTO, and I’ve decided this is how I want to use it, thanks!”

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Honestly I think it’d be okay to say something like, “sometimes I feel like you’re policing my time off … can I ask that we stop talking about it? I’ve cleared it with the boss and that’s what matters.”

        1. Snark*

          Oh, yeah. You can take an assertive line here. “Is there a reason you’re policing my time off?” is a great line.

          1. Aurion*

            Yeah, a raised eyebrow and “why are you policing my time off?” should shut this down real quick.

            And if not–if this coworker has brazenly trampled past the clearly drawn line–then at that point I’d pull out “my vacation is not up for negotiation”.

    3. BadWolf*

      Now I’m curious what happens if you asked “Why would I do that?” as a follow up to “What do you mean?”

      Since that answer to that is “Because it’s better for me.”

      Or you could play the compliment game, “Oh you don’t need me here. You do a fine job covering when I’m gone. That’s why we’re a good team, you can be gone for all of November and I cover it.”

    4. Meh*

      Just don’t tell her when you’ll be gone, and let her be surprised when you don’t show up! (Okay don’t do that). I’d say just give her the bare minimum of information with no details. Just that you’ll be gone and that’s it. It’s none of her business what you’re doing with your time off. If she asks why, just say “personal reasons” and leave it at that. Don’t give her an opening to critique.

    5. Alternative Person*

      I think you did the right thing. And as someone above said, roll your eyes and move on.

      Some people can do some fascinating mental gymnastics when it comes to people who are their friends vs people who are not their friends.

      (and I super hear you on the being off a month thing, one of my co-workers took a whole month off, then worked a reduced schedule for another month (to work another job) with zero awareness of the load she was putting on the other staff during busy season (not that I begrudge the time off, just her attitude and lack of prep towards it)).

    6. Snark*

      Give her no details about why you’re going to be out, for one. “I’ll be out Friday afternoon.” Done.

      If she does start to engage with you on that, I think you’re totally entitled to say, “Already got approval from Boss, so you’ll have to take it up with him,” or “I don’t really want to debate this,” or “I brought this up for your information, not your approval,” or something. She’s way out of line.

      1. Kathenus*

        I really like all of these suggestions. Not her business, don’t engage and play the game. Unless you turn the game to amuse yourself with it, and then by all means have fun yourself with the situation.

    7. LKW*

      My favorite is to play really confused “Why do you ask?” “I’m sorry I don’t understand your point.” and my favorite: “Nope, sorry, I hear you saying words and I understand those words but I don’t understand the words together.”

      The other is to this specific situation could have been “Oh you’re one of those people… people who don’t like to spend too much time with their friends/ People who are afraid of sick people/ people who like to get up early.”

      1. Paula Anton*

        Ooh!

        This is really a good example of “Gaslighting 101”. If you’re not already in management, I see a lot of potential. (I’m not judging you, I swear. Sometimes this is a handy jobskill.)

      2. Mad Baggins*

        That reminds me of the Office episode where Andy is floating away across the lake and Angela intentionally misunderstands what he says.
        Andy: Just look at what is happening, and go tell somebody it!!
        Angela: I don’t understand what you want from me.
        Andy: Get help!!
        Angela: Sorry! *walks away*

    8. Anna Canuck*

      What she says shouldn’t affect how you feel this much. She’s just a coworker. She has opinions that are of no effect on you. Let her talk, let it roll off of you, live your fabulous life. The best advice for this is really just to care less. If you really can’t take it, try to get her going on herself instead of you (‘Oh, I can’t, but what are you doing this weekend?”)

      1. Peaches*

        It might be easy to care less for some people but for others it’s not. More so, it sounds like the person asking is really driving these questions, so it might not be that the writer cares too much she just constantly has to hear it. The other person might also be one of those people who will keeping bringing a question up until they get an answer. I would be polite but vague. ‘Leaving Saturday doesn’t work for me, but you’ll be fine without me.’

    9. TechServLib*

      My favorite response to this is a half-joking response to Coworker, “Boss, you must have gotten a new haircut! I almost didn’t recognize you sitting at Coworker’s desk!”
      It’s snarky, but a little lighthearted and gets the point across as “This is between me and my boss. You are not my boss, so this is not something that’s up for discussion with you.”

    10. Bea*

      I would just stop engaging. It’s none of her business. “Why not leave Saturday?” “because I’m leaving on Friday.” and then ignore the rest of her insufferable follow ups.

      She’s not your mom. She can ef off.

      1. ket*

        Yea, I think the advice to ask, “What do you mean by that?” only works with people in whom it will prompt self-reflection. You’ve done the experiment and shown this is not the case. Try the next technique down the list and go directly to, “It’s not possible.”

        We’ve often had the discussion in comments about advice not the JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) and how it’s really only applicable to narcissists and difficult people, and that with most people a bit of discussion or justification is really useful. I think your coworker has demonstrated that it’s time to move to ‘tools for difficult people.’

    12. Jady*

      Minimum information. Make your life private.

      The less they know the better, and it’ll avoid a lot of the annoying situations. When they push, just respond with questions like “Why do you ask?” and try changing topics. If they get aggressive, shut it down with something like “The time off has already been approved, I’m just letting you know as a kindness.”

    13. theletter*

      See I would have replied with “Because I want to go see my sick friend on Friday,” and left it at that. Then it’s in her court to argue her case, which can promptly be shut down by “Boss already already approved it.”

    14. MissDisplaced*

      “Why can’t you go on Saturday instead?” = “I want to go home early too.” Right?
      Very passive aggressive. If she wants to leave early she needs to put in for the time off. Otherwise it’s none of her business.

      “Why can’t you go on Saturday instead?”
      “Because I want to leave Friday.”
      “Blah, blah, blah”
      I like ThatGirls response: “It’s my PTO, and I’ve decided this is how I want to use it, thanks!”

    15. Turquoisecow*

      There’s a strategy mentioned in The West Wing (which I just finished watching) about dealing with questions you’re not prepared to or don’t want to answer. It’s called “refusing to accept the premise of the question.”

      A good example is when a reporter says “what do you think of (opposing candidate’s) views on Issue X,” and you reply with “I’m more concerned about Issue Y, and here’s why, and here’s my plan to work on that issue.” You don’t accept that the question is about issue X or your opponent’s thoughts, you change it and answer the question you want to answer, which is about Issue Y.

      So when your coworker says “why don’t you go on Saturday?” answer as though she’d asked you a different question, not that one. “Yes, it’ll be great to see her; she’s not been doing well and I hope my visit perks her up.” “I’m bringing her some of my famous home made soup, she really enjoys that.” “I’ll pass on your well wishes, thanks,” or something similar. Pretend she actually asked something or said something socially acceptable, like “I hope your friend is doing well and enjoys your company.”

      2. LovecraftInDC*

        This is a great way to change the subject quickly and effectively, but I’d (personally) reserve it for when I just don’t want to answer the question. When the questioner has no right to be asking the question (like OP’s coworker), I’d be a little more aggressive in my response as suggested above.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      This can cover many drawn out, belabored points: Why do you care so much?

      I would be curious as to why she has to go on and on. “Jane, I have noticed that when I let you know I won’t be here we seem to have to discuss it for a while. I think you know that the boss has already approved the time off. I am wondering, why we are having these longer discussions?

  8. AnonyAnony*

    I received a job offer, but the salary is lower than I expected. In an initial pre-screen with HR, when asked about my salary requirements, I noted I needed to earn at least $X and the HR person said that was in their range. In the offer, it’s a bit lower (about 3%). Any suggestions for how to word that I expected higher based on the HR person’s comment?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      “In our initial conversations, you asked about salary requirements, and I said I’d need at least $X, and you said that was okay. If you can offer me $X (instead of $X x .97), I’d love to take the offer.”

      That is, if you really are happy to take the offer. I worry if they’re lowballing you now, before you even start working there, this will likely be a trend going forward (no raises, no cost-of-living increases, no bonuses, no promotions, etc.).

    2. Afiendishthingy*

      Listen to AAM’s podcast about negotiating salary and just ask for it. “I discussed ($x) with Fergus. Could you do that?” And stop talking and wait.

      1. Yorick*

        This would be my approach as well.

        This sort of happened to me and I had no idea how to negotiate. All I could manage is “that’s a lot lower than we discussed…….awkward silence” and it seemed to work ok. (it was a larger % difference)

      2. BRR*

        This is what I would do. I like the idea of mentioning “this is the number I had already discussed” over negotiating without mentioning that it’s already been discussed.

    3. DG*

      “I’m really excited about this job and this opportunity, but I was hoping the pay would be around $Y. Based on my (years of experience blah blah) that number is more in line with what I was thinking.”

      Then see what they say – if there is room for negotiation there, they’ll let you know. If not, then that’s your answer.

    4. Nita*

      Maybe say something like “thank you for the offer. However, for me to consider leaving my current job, the starting salary needs to be at least $X” You could add some reasons if you want – such as, this is lower than your current salary/your salary with an anticipated raise, your commute costs will go up dramatically, the proposed salary doesn’t match your responsibilities, etc.

    5. Lil Fidget*

      I think HR lowballs people as a matter of principle, just to see if you’ll take less. I wouldn’t focus on prior conversations, except maybe in a passing remark – you’re not trying to litigate a past conversation, you’re just negotiating for the amount you want. Use Alison’s standard advice about how to go about asking for the number you have in mind. Shake off the weirdness of having to go back a step again, it’s just how these things go sometimes.

    6. AnonyAnony*

      Thanks all for the advice! Follow-up question: would it be better to have this conversation by phone or send an email so the employer has a chance to research the possibility of the higher rate?

      2. Llama Wrangler*

        Definitely over the phone if you can. They may need to go back and look at budgets, etc, but it is easier to have the conversation and you will get a better sense of what they’re thinking.

  9. JellyBean*

    When interviewing for a job or being offered a job and asked when you can start, what should you say if you’re unemployed? It feels like I would be expected to say “tomorrow,” but it would be nice to have a couple days or a week to test out the commute, buy appropriate clothes if needed, stock up on lunch food that’s easy to bring to work, readjust my sleep schedule, etc. I also have a few upcoming doctor appointments, so it makes sense to me to put off starting for a week if I have multiple appointments scheduled.

    Overall, I’ve been unemployed for a long time so I don’t feel like I could be ready to start working again instantly. I’m worried that employers will think this is ridiculous though since the standard two weeks notice period doesn’t apply to me.

    1. Someone Else*

      The following Monday is what I typically said, as most companies need time to order equipment and stuff anyway.

    2. LQ*

      I think you could certainly say at least a week. I’d go for not the upcoming Monday, but the Monday after that in general. Maybe not a full 2 weeks, but a full 2 weekends and enough time to get through appointments and whatever else.

    3. Streisand & Gibb*

      You have a life, one that you’re trying to include a job. If they, or you, expect to start tomorrow, you’re not honoring your life. If I’m unemployed, I say that I can start on ‘this date’ regardless if they think I should be able to start right away because I have nothing else going on, being unemployed. ‘Tomorrow’ or something in that range wouldn’t be prudent for each of you – they need to prepare to bring you on and you bring them into your life. Just say a date between 1.5 and 2 weeks from now. If you have a dr appointment that goes into that time frame, let them know. You can’t stop your life while you’re job searching.

      Congrats on the new job.

      2. Trinity Beeper*

        +1, just chiming in to say I really like the phrase “honoring your life”. I think a lot more people could stand to think about it that way.

    4. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Sure, you’re unemployed. But your new employer doesn’t know that maybe you’re dogsitting for a friend. Or volunteered to house sit. Heck, maybe you just have a quick getaway planned. Or your car is in the shop. There’s a myriad reasons that you wouldn’t be able to start tomorrow. I wouldn’t stress about starting in a week.

      CONGRATS!

    5. DivineMissL*

      Well, when I’m asked that in an interview, I usually say “I’d like to give my current job X notice, so I could start X notice after we’ve agreed on the employment offer” or something similar. In your case, you can just say, “I can start one week (or however many days you want) after we’ve agreed on an offer.” If you were employed, they would have to wait 2-4 weeks for you to start anyway; so asking them for a week or so to prepare is quite reasonable.

    6. ThatGirl*

      It’s normal for pre-employment stuff to take a week or two, anyway. I was unemployed when I got my current job, and still gave myself about 10 days – it was nice to get things in order, take care of some appointments, buy a few new clothes, etc. Most jobs wouldn’t expect you to be ready immediately even if you weren’t currently working – they have that lead/notice time built in.

      1. LovecraftInDC*

        And many jobs CAN’T start you the next day. Even after passing background, my employer mandates that new employees start at the beginning of a pay period. I can imagine (in a department other than mine) a situation where they have an emergency and need someone right away, but for most positions, the Monday two weeks from acceptance date is a perfectly reasonable time.

        And like others have said, even if you’re unemployed, employers are humans too and they realize there’s a whole bunch of things that you may need time to adjust; childcare, petcare, transportation arrangements, hey maybe you’ve got a mid-week trip or something coming up.

        1. New Phone Who Dis?*

          Yep. I had no idea this was a thing and was very confused and in hindsight, oddly pushy to start. I assumed a job opening meant it needed to be filled ASAP (like most places hiring high school and college students). I totally out life on hold while job searching so I could be there instantly.

    7. Afiendishthingy*

      I accepted a job this Monday. I had originally said (during the interview) that I would be available to start the day after Labor Day, and they were totally understanding about that. However once I accepted I thought “but I’m so broke and need a paycheck right now” so I ended up starting this Tuesday. It’s been very overwhelming. It’s a school based job so it made sense to start the school year with everyone, and I was happily surprised to get a paycheck today— apparently the first paycheck of the school year for salaried employees comes early. Overall, though, I think I’d recommend taking a week.

    8. Anon From Here*

      I don’t think anyone expects you to say “tomorrow” even if you’re between jobs. “Unemployed” doesn’t mean you have absolutely nothing on your to-do list; it just means that “go to work” isn’t on the list.

    9. Snark*

      I think, “I’ve got some obligations I’ll need to wrap up, so would Monday the 10th work for you?” would be a fine way to handle it. Or, “I’ve got some appointments this coming week, so would the following Monday make sense as a start date?” This is all incredibly normal, and nobody is going to blow smoke at you for this, even if you’re currently not employed.

      1. Kuododi*

        Big second on this one. I’ve started new jobs after unemployment as well as after a 2 or 3 week notice. After starting from unemployed, I think I used the term “commitments” but otherwise the script I used was essentially the same. I would typically commit to start within 7-10 business days which didn’t appear to raise eyebrows. Best wishes!!!

    10. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      If you’re working in a white collar/office job (i.e. one where you sit at a computer during a lot of your day), most companies will need at least a few days to get you set up — get a computer configured, create various accounts, make sure they have an onboarding schedule in place, etc.

      And that goes for you, too. You don’t need to explain anything to them; they don’t expect your calendar to be 100% clear because you’re unemployed. You could have volunteer commitments, doctor’s appointments, projects to wrap up. Life happens even when work doesn’t.

      I’d ask for at least a week. I’m guessing they won’t blink.

      (ALL this goes out the window if you’re in a different industry — retail, construction, etc. I have no idea how those sectors work!)

      1. Jady*

        This, definitely.

        Office jobs will never be ready for you to start “tomorrow” anyway. They have to process paperwork, select a desk, talk and prep teams, arrange training and onboarding, order and setup equipment (laptops, monitors, phone systems, voicemails), create ID badges, create user accounts, apply security settings, so on and on!

        A week is fine!

    11. JellyBean*

      Thanks for all the replies and scripts! I feel a lot better about saying I need a week before starting any jobs now. I had forgotten that the employer might have some things to do on their end that would make starting “tomorrow” impractical, and it sounds like my assumption that they’d expect me to be instantly available since I’m unemployed was way off.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        You could have doctor’s appointments or volunteer work commitments to wrap up. You could be helping elderly mom to move and get settled into her assisted living place. If you are asked directly about being unemployed and not available, you can just say that you made short term commitments as you prefer to keep busy even though you are not working. You need a moment to wrap up these commitments, so you can focus on your new job.

    12. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Congrats on the new job!! I know how you feel (I was out of work for 2 years). But as much as you want to, don’t say “Tomorrow” as they need time to get things set up for you on their end (get your computer profile set up, get you in the security system, etc.). So give them at least 2 weeks.

    13. Alumna Elsewhere*

      I said ‘on Monday’ when I was in this situation and regretted it – I really needed another week to sort out alternatives to pre-existing commitments and so on.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      It’ up to you really. Some unemployed people are thrilled to jump right in in a day or two. But generally, I’d say a full week is normal unless you have some mitigating circumstance (like a trip, medical procedure, etc.) already scheduled that might justify a slightly longer pushback.

  10. Poniez R Us*

    Has anyone else ever told on your boss? How did it go? Did you have mixed feelings?

    I spoke with HR this week about my boss. After speaking with my coworkers , I consolidated our concerns/complaints and presented them to HR. I have mixed feelings right now. My boss is not a bad person. He just sucks at managing. HR was very concerned about a couple things I said and said he will talk to my boss’s boss and decide where to go from there.
    Regardless of the outcome, I am leaving. The environment is too political and toxic. My search is going well so far. Hopefully I will be out of here before the end of year.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I wish your coworkers had come with you – I hate when one person is labeled The Troublemaker when the rest of the group agrees in theory. Their support sometimes erodes when asked directly and now it looks like you’re the only person with the grudge.

    2. LKW*

      I reported a compliance issue on a former boss. She was toeing a really unethical line. She was also a sucky boss.

      So that bridge is burned.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It might help if you reframe this as “providing necessary feedback regarding your boss’s actions” instead of “telling on”.

      1. mkt*

        ^^ This!

        I give feedback about my colleagues and my dotted line reports as needed. If it’s impacting your work, career, morale, etc., (and doesn’t fall into categories that are petty annoyances) than it’s really important to speak up.

    4. LDP*

      I did this recently. It did not go well. My boss gave me the silent treatment for over a week and wouldn’t even make eye contact with me. She then pulled me into her office and closed the door and asked me what exactly I had said to her boss (we don’t have an HR person in our office, so I went to my grandboss), made accusations about my mental health, basically just went on and on about how disappointed she was in me and how disrespected she felt. Honestly, if I had to do it all over again, I’d still do it. She’s making my work life miserable with her antics, so I’m tired of walking on eggshells around her and pretending we’re friends (she’ created this weird “mean girls” kind of culture on our team that feels very 6th grade to me). Needless to say, I’ve started my job search. Hopefully your situation doesn’t get quite as bad as what I’ve been dealing with!

    5. Yorkshire Rose*

      Unless the boss is doing something illegal/unethical, it is never a good idea to complain about your boss. One needs to either learn to “manage up,” or move out.

      The person who “tells on” a boss is immediately labeled a troublemaker and is the first person to go during downsizing.

      This never works out well. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

        2. Yorkshire Rose*

          It’s called Not Biting the Hand that Feeds You. I don’t know what the boss was doing in this situation, but there are a lot of people who “suck at managing,” and as long as the LW is not enduring verbal/physical abuse or is witnessing/documenting unethical/illegal behavior, there is no need to rock a boat. HR works for the best interest of the company, not the employee making the complaint.

          99% of the time, you have better success having a conversation with your manager about the behaviors that puzzle you, or learn to ignore them if they’re not that bad. Or as the LW is doing, looking for a new job if it’s really an unbearable environment.

          1. Poniez R Us*

            I did not want to include too many details as to not out myself. I would hope that as a commenter on this site you would understand that and assume the best. Indeed I have done the “managing up”, direct conversations, etc. Ultimately I believe my boss acts in a way that toes ethical behavior and puts our team at risk for providing inaccurate information to outside financial institutions that hold us accountable for providing accurate and fairly presented information. Furthermore, while there are plenty of bad managers and it is legal to be a bad manager, I believe that people should be heard when they feel they are being put in difficult situations or being treated in a less than respectful manner. As noted below, this was a hard decision. I like my boss as a person but his judgement puts me at risk for being a part of a situation I don’t want to be in.

    6. Snark*

      You….aren’t “telling on” anyone. You’re not in third grade. You are providing actionable, concerning information about your boss’ management practices and style to upper management.

    7. Bea*

      Reporting someone for not doing their job well isn’t the same as squealing because they wore sneakers instead of loafers when your dresscode is business professional!

      I’ve never reported a boss, they’ve all been the end-all. But when you can go above them, the structure is there for a reason. You’re loyal to the company, not the person you report to. That’s how I frame it.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Yes, definitely mixed feelings. It’s unusual to report a boss, so doing something unusual does not come with out a lot of thought and then more thought and more thought.
      What is done is done and it lands where it lands.
      The few times I have done it no one ever rushed up to me and thanked me, so I had no sense of accomplishment or change, etc.
      Generally speaking when people decide to report bosses the situation is Not Good. And the boss might have difficulty processing the news, the problems in process the constructive criticism are probably part of the problems she has with doing the job.
      I think the best thing you can do is be able to clearly and briefly state why you did what you did. Know your Why. It is handy to be able to briefly say what you want to see change. Also remind your coworkers that they need to carry their part of the load too. They can’t sit back and let you fight the fight for them.

      1. Poniez R Us*

        Thank you for this. It was definitely hard to make the choice and I don’t regret it one bit.

    9. ONFM*

      No real advice, just sympathy. I’m going through something similar with my team; facts were brought to light that required an immediate report above my boss’ head. She was put on leave the next day and isn’t back yet. Now the individual employees are waffling…”maybe it wasn’t that bad,” “maybe I misunderstood,” etc. The situation is stressful, and we’re facing the very real possibility that the boss could come back. Where does that leave us? It’s a bad situation. I’m honestly not sure I’d do it again unless what was happening was explicitly illegal or truly harming someone.

      1. Observer*

        If your boss was put on immediate leave, that should be enough to tell you that it WAS that bead, and it probably is a potentially big deal – legally, ethically or in terms of harm to others. Unless your employer is toxic and your manager was already in someone’s cross hairs.

  11. AnonEmu*

    Anon here, but I am in a dilemma:

    This is my first job after grad school but funding for my position runs out next August, so my boss has let me and others in my position know so we can start job hunting in advance. However, I’m looking to move on sooner – this job is a lot different than i expected, and due to understaffing/lack of time to train and just how busy we are, the stress of this job is really too much for me to handle. I’m working a lot longer hours than I was told were usual for the job (one reason I accepted the lower salary was because the hours I was told seemed like the hours would allow for work-life balance, and instead 10-12 hour days are the norm),. My ability to push back here is limited because everyone is working really long hours, my boss included, I’m burnt out to the point where my friends and family are concerned about the impact on my health. It’s been impacting my work performance as well – my migraines were really well controlled previously but now I’m getting multiple a week where I used to maybe get one a month, and I just don’t really have a chance to build back any stamina. I’ve developed some lower gut issues as well (trying to get into a dr about that but I am pretty sure it’s stress), and I’m constantly not on top of my game since I keep catching whatever cold/sinus bug keeps coming around. The stress is making it hard to sleep as well – I am seeing a therapist for help with this and my anxiety issues, but she thinks this job is exacerbating every mental health issue I already have, between the chaos and some of the way things are handled here, and is encouraging me to job hunt as well. Given prior attempts to discuss this with my boss, I don’t think things are likely to change anytime soon – I was having regular panic attacks at work (I’d go to an area not currently being used and hide till I got over them) but now the anxiety has depression on top of it.

    My boss is trying her best, but to me it’s pretty clear that this isn’t the kind of environment I can thrive in, and my boss isn’t really thrilled with me right now. I should note that this job was a big change for me in terms of duties and day to day, but my boss hired me knowing the skill levels I was coming in with and that I was seeing it as an opportunity to widen my skill base. My other coworkers are a lot more experienced already so sometimes I do struggle to keep up just because a lot of this stuff is on the level of ‘learned it in school, first time doing it IRL’ level for me – and then I’m so exhausted from all of this that when it comes to the stuff I -am- good at, migraines and exhaustion mean I take longer than I normally would. So there’s a lot of frustration all around.

    I’ve already started job hunting, and talked with one of my mentors from grad school about some of this stuff in confidence. He understands I’m in a difficult situation. The problem is reaching out to the two other members of my committee asking for their permission to serve as references and letting them know I’m job hunting again. I don’t want to get in trouble with current boss, and I don’t want to burn any bridges, but I am so nervous about asking them for help, especially since one of them knows my current boss. (edited)

    So how does this look as an email to them:

    Dear Dr. {____}

    I found out recently that funding for my current position will end next August. Due to the potential lead time involved in academic and/or industry job searches, if you are aware of any positions opening next year, I would love to hear about them. I would also like your permission to use you as a reference in the future.

    Thank you so much for all your guidance and support during my time at {university}.

    Sincerely,

    TL;DR Only been here 5 months, already job hunting again because I can’t handle what this job is doing to my health and things are unlikely to change soon. Want to let references know I’d like to find a new job now without burning bridges because small academic world. Advice also appreciated on what questions to ask so that I don’t wind up in a position like this again.

    1. AnonEmu*

      Ignore the “edited” above – I drafted this in another program and pasted it. But any advice would be appreciated.

    2. J.B.*

      I wouldn’t hesitate to approach them. The script is fine, but maybe start with a call or in person instead of email? The fact is that academia is not huge on boundaries, and that searches can take forever. Good luck!

      1. AnonEmu*

        Even when I was in the same state, unfortunately, email was the only way to get a hold of them. What did you mean by boundaries?

    3. Nesprin*

      The professor is in is better for the wacky world of academia – we’re an odd bunch. If your field has a big central conference where hiring happens you should go even if you have to pay for yourself. Your email is a little anxiety ridden- everyone wants their students to do well, and if your committee has written letters for you before, they probably will again. Perhaps the biggest red flag would be no letter from your current supervisor- if there’s any chance he’d give you a decent letter, you should ask for it.

      For references, I’d call and give an update, but here’s how I’d go about email asking for refs.

      Dear Dr. {____}
      Thank you so much for all your guidance and support during my time at {university}. My work in X’s group is going well- , and I’ve attached my most updated CV but due to the vagaries of funding, I will be applying for positions in the next few months. Would you be able to give me a strong reference? Additionally, please let me know if any of these sorts of positions come up.

      Sincerely,

      1. AnonEmu*

        Unfortunately the big central conference was in July – and while I put some feelers out, it was really sparsely attended this year. I put a few feelers out re future jobs, but I also thought that I had at least another year left on this position (I found out that funding wasn’t renewed 2 weeks ago) and I was also believing my boss’s promise that stuff would ease up in July (it has gotten significantly worse and she said there’s likely to be no letup for the foreseeable future). The issue is also that current boss has said ‘start hunting in spring’ but I’m hunting now because I need to get out for my own sanity and health.

        And due to a bunch of things that have happened, as well as current supervisor’s temperament, I’m terrified I won’t get a good reference, because they keep calling me out (in front of my coworkers) for stuff like “why didn’t you do [thing I told you you weren’t allowed to do until you were trained on it]” when I hadn’t been trained on it and they forgot I hadn’t been (I had been asking, it kept getting put off) or “why don’t you know where x was filed” (when x is something filed by a coworker that just left, who was notorious for misfiling things and I didn’t even know that file existed. I mentioned that I’ve been trying my hardest but I sometimes get overwhelmed (largely due to being put into situations without training) and I was told that I shouldn’t be overwhelmed and I need to step up. I feel like I’m in a catch-22 here – if I’d had the training I need, I would handle stuff better, but we’re too swamped for me to be trained properly so I make more mistakes than I’d like and my boss keeps treating me like I’m a walking disaster zone.

        1. Public Health Nerd*

          Now is the time to look – there’s more than one grant cycle, and nobody will look at you sideways for looking now. I also think it’s fine to tell prospective new jobs that you want to be on a team that can provide more training and mentoring to a junior person. You can frame it that current team wasn’t able to do this – not that they are bad people, but that this isn’t their forte.

          Yes, academia is small, but that also means other groups know which researchers are a hot mess for junior hires.

          2. AnonEmu*

            Unfortunately my mentor from grad school found out this research location is known for having more research to do than people to do it – and found that out after I took the job. And the thing is that my current boss does have a rep for training people well, but the person who was supposed to train me on a lot of stuff (who has since left) didn’t despite me and my boss asking them, and in a few cases actively sabotaged me or trained me to do things wrong – but I’m not getting retrained or getting the kind of training my current boss is known for, and idk what I did wrong other than arrive at the most chaotic time this lab has had in ages. For months it kept being put off to “when we get a chance” and now I’ve been here 5 months, my training is still piecemeal, but my boss keeps treating me like I have more experience/training than I actually have. I’ve been doing my best to learn stuff on my own but there’s still a lot of situations where it’s me by myself encountering something I don’t know how to deal with, doing my best, and getting in trouble and we’re busy enough that if I ask for help/clarification too often people get quite frustrated.

            I keep winding up in situations where I go in explicitly stating I want training and mentoring, am promised it, and don’t get it – in grad school I was able to find another mentor, but here? I got thrown to the wolves. Any tips as to what questions to ask going forward so I actually do get training?

            1. Public Health Nerd*

              Ask about what the training and mentoring look like – is it as needed help? Formal meetings? See one, do one? Budget for meetings? Then you can decide if you like that idea. If it’s a small group, ask about relationships with other groups who might be a resource.

              The culture and makeup of labs and research units shift over time, so don’t worry about looking bad to other people. I think the key is to spend time imagining what amazing support/training/mentoring would look like day to day, and tell interviewers that this is what you’re looking for.

              1. AnonEmu*

                Thanks! I did hear back from them – two have job leads already and one said he’d be on the look out. And one of the job leads is with a lab I already know the dynamics of and it could be a good fit – the other one I have some more caveats re, but I’m applying for both. I definitely appreciate the advice!

                Any tips about how to ask about how long the funding is good for? Both of these jobs would require long-distance moves and I’m still paying off this one.

    4. anonymoushiker*

      This email looks just fine to me. I think, maybe especially in university and/or academic-connected work, people are going to understand that funding disappears and that this happens. I think keeping the mental health stuff out of it as much as possible is probably a good idea as you never know when people will hold it against you.

      1. AnonEmu*

        Unfortunately I may have blown that with this job. Despite being the most laid-back person in my family of type A overachievers (a friend of mine calls me a Type A-), turns out being thrown into a chaotic situation with not much experience, and not getting the training I needed makes me anxious because I am petrified of making a mistake, so I do get anxious if only because no one teaches me what counts as critical or intervention-worthy until I hit a false positive >< I do pretty well in chaotic environments but this is too chaotic for me, and some early flailing when I really wasn't sure what counted as urgent/hadn't been told means that from then on even if -I- think I'm calm, me asking for clarification gets parsed as being anxious. I'd rather ask a question than wing it and mess up, but….again, if I'd gotten the training I needed/people were clearer with instructions a lot of this would've been prevented. But none of my coworkers know I'm in therapy so there's that at least.

    5. valentine*

      You don’t have to grind yourself down, despite what anyone else is doing. If you think your boss will fire you for working a sustainable amount of hours, would she allow it if your doctor requested it? It sounds like working strictly 8-hour/day, 40-hour weeks (or less) would reduce your migraines and potentially increase your productivity, although you may need to do it for longer than you’ve been overworking, just to return to a decent baseline. Could you use that to set the boundary, that you can do accomplish y, and well, if you work x hours, versus working 10+ and not reaching your goals? If you only improve your health, that’s a lot. The work is endless. You’re the one who needs looking after.

      1. AnonEmu*

        I guess the issue is that we don’t have enough people here (and no sign of more people in the future, despite boss’s efforts) to make that possible – there’s a minimum # of bodies needed to make things run every day and we’re at that right now. Everyone’s working these kind of hours and me needing reduced duty would just make it worse for everyone else. We need to work these hours just to keep afloat on getting everything done – everyone is behind on everything, and it’s been that way since I got here (and we had more people working here then).

        I am also unfortunately in a branch of academia where physical and mental health needs are seen as a sign of weakness/not being cut out for the field, unless it’s something like “had sports accident, can’t use leg for a whole semester” (and even then I didn’t get cut much slack). In grad school, the one time I lost composure around my labmates (after a serious setback with my research, which would make -anyone- upset) had my (male) labmates asking me if I really had the capacity to stay in grad school and maybe I should quit. A doctor’s note requesting reduced duty, in the absence of something like a broken limb, would probably make things significantly worse and make it hard for me to get a new job. I just want out of here.

        The other thing is that during grad school I was working 50-60 hour weeks just fine mostly – but I had at least one day per weekend mostly off, and it wasn’t as much physical labor as I am doing now. I also had to have emergency surgery twice during grad school, survived some pretty serious personal trauma, and was still less stressed than I am at this job. I think I am cut out more for what I did for my PhD, which was more modeling and large data analysis. I took this job to get experience in fieldwork – I just didn’t expect to be thrown to the wolves, have a coworker actively sabotage me for months, and be working about 50% more hours than I took the job to do. I took a lower salary because of the training opportunities and the hours promised, neither of which have been really happening. I don’t necessarily think it’s the hours worked, it’s the sheer chaos, lab culture, and the fact that no one ever gets a break. I know my boss is trying their best but I just….I dont know what to do except to find a new job ASAP.

  12. Justin*

    I started my doctoral program last night!

    I am definitely doing homework on a slow day at work, which is better than all the other slow days when I… just sit here.

    But I struggle with the fact that I might not be able to put it to use as much as I’d want while I study. During my masters, it wasn’t bifurcated – I studied teaching X, then I went and taught X. But doctorates are, by nature, more abstract.

    Not really complaining. I’m excited for the challenge and I was bored. But I’m keeping my eye out for ways I can progress and grow here, or else I definitely have to leave in the winter, lest I wake up five years later with little to show for it professionally.

    1. Justin*

      (I hope there is enough “work” in there to not be removed. It’s about work/school, but I understand if there’s too much of the latter.)

      1. Bigintodogs*

        Do you still get the chance to TA or anything doing your doctorate? I think most students do. Also it will probably get busy as the year progresses. I think basically “putting it to use while you study” is working on your thesis. Doctorates are way more of a job than Master’s degrees are, so your job is your research.

  13. Ali G*

    So I am a finalist for a great job I really want! I am so excited. I have an interview with the CEO (who would be my boss) on Wednesday. The only thing I am worried about is – he is new to the organization (his first day was this past Monday). Also, this position has been empty since last year, and so it’s become obvious to me during the interview process that they are interested in going in a new direction and they wanted the incoming CEO involved in the process because of that.
    Does anyone have any suggestions for questions to ask him? I feel like the normal questions about office culture, etc. would all be hypothetical since he is also new. Here are the questions I am considering:
    What is your management style?
    Do you have specific goals in mind for this position (to see how his view compares with the job listing and the other conversations I’ve had about it)?
    What changes, if any do you see making to the organization in your first 6 months?
    Do you have an idea what a successful first 6 months for this position would look like?
    I’m open to input on other ideas!
    Thank you and I will certainly except all the good vibes you can give :)

    1. Neosmom*

      What specifically do you need from me to help you (Mr. CEO) reach your goals?

      Turn the focus back on the boss. It may be he needs 24/7 access to you via phone. That would be a big red flag for me.

      Good luck to you.

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      How did you find out the CEO just started the position? (i.e., is it public knowledge that he’s new?) if it is, that can probably work FOR you. You could start with “I understand that you are new to the role/company, but what are your plans for the company and how would my role/position help achieve those goals?” Good luck with the interview. Update us on how it goes.

      1. Ali G*

        Yes it’s common knowledge and they told me his start date – because it impacts their timeline.
        I like this a lot – thanks!

    3. Kimmo*

      I would ask about his vision. You can just say something like “it seems that the organization is changing direction; can you give me your take on what seems to be going well vs what ways you’d like to shift gears, based on your time here so far?” Hopefully it can give you some insight into how your role fits into that, big-picture.

    4. Doloris Van Cartier*

      I would ask questions to help you understand the way they see the organization growing under their leadership and then how your position can help support that work and what they think that would look like to be successful.

    5. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Instead of the office culture questions… how about something like

      “How have you found it to be new to this environment”
      “What are your first impressions of the operations here; was there anything that jumped out at you good or bad?”
      “Heh… have you found the coffee maker yet?” Yeah, I would totally make that joke.

  14. Alternative Person*

    So, I told my manager officially that I want to cut my schedule to four days a week because I got a one-day-a-week contract with a better regarded employer (this is normal in my line of work).

    He seemed resigned (he’s known that this has been on the cards for a while) but it is a load of my chest to officially make the decision.

  15. First Day Jitters*

    I am about to start a new job (after a vacation, yay!) It is in the field I got my degree in (yay again!) but is quite different from the job I currently hold, which is/was my first job out of college. I am extremely excited about my new position and want to set myself up for success. I am moving a) from the public sector (state government) to the private sector, b) from a very, very laid-back and slow-paced environment to a fast-paced, much busier environment, and c) from one field to another. I guess I maybe have a little pre-first-day jitters/impostor syndrome “oh my god what if I can’t do this new job” feelings going on. I moved into my current position from an internship position, so I feel like I always knew the ropes. I’m nervous about jumping into a new-ish field where the environment is fast-paced, where I will probably have to learn quickly, and get used to a totally different culture. Any tips on getting off on the right foot, transitioning smoothly, and getting over my nerves?

    1. RachelTW*

      If you are worried about keeping up and/or learning everything necessary for your new field, I would make sure to ask for regular/explicit feedback from your manager (if possible and if that’s something that fits in the culture in your office) and for clear, measurable expectations they have for y0ur success. I made a similar transition and wasn’t quite up to snuff, but I think I could have been if I had had a better idea of the yard stick I was actually being measured against.

      1. DrWombat*

        Same – try and get as much feedback and clear guidelines as you can. Your manager may forget that what’s “common sense” for someone more used to the field isn’t necessarily how someone newer to things may handle it, and that’s always an uncomfortable conversation to have. Better to get as clear as you can upfront so there’s less anxiety and better communication. Congrats!

    2. Aunty Anarchy*

      Congrats on the new gig.
      You could try asking about/identifying for yourself some “low hanging fruit”: concrete deliverables for your first 30 or 90 days. Even if they’re obvious or basic, it’ll demonstrate to NewBoss – and, perhaps more importantly, to yourself – that you’ve got this. Good for their confidence in you, and for yours in yourself.

  16. AdAgencyChick*

    Hivemind, have you worked at a company that decided to save money by offloading admin duties onto junior non-admin employees?

    My company recently made this change. The juniors who are asked to do admin tasks (specifically, booking travel, planning meetings, and completing expense reports for mid- to senior-level employees) are not in my department. The admin was awesome at booking my travel and getting my expense reports completed in a timely fashion; the juniors, not so much, but since they don’t report to me, I can’t make them do better. (And I get it, I get that they consider their duties for external clients to be more important/urgent than their admin work, but all the same I want my money back when I go on a trip!)

    If you’ve been in a situation like this, what (if anything) has worked well to get the admin stuff done right when it’s not being done by a full-time admin?

    1. Snark*

      Honestly? I don’t think you can, or should, expect admin staff-level performance out of non-admin staff. This is one of the consequences of cheaping out on human resources. If they have external client responsibilities, those are going to rightly take precedence, and I think the mid-to-seniors either need to push to rehire admins, or accept that customer service is going to take a hit.

      1. Snark*

        And I don’t mean to imply that you cheaped out on the admins! Obviously that decision was made above your head. And you can try, maybe, bringing coffee for the juniors this got shoveled off on – if they know and like you, they might whip on it. But ultimately, I don’t think you can really whip on them.

      2. Ciara Amberlie*

        This. If they are doing the admin stuff, just not as fast as you’d like because of their other responsibilities, then I think that’s just a natural consequence of the decision made by the company.

        If they were refusing to do the admin stuff at all, or were deliberately doing it slowly to protest having to do it, that would be worth raising. But it just being slower because they’ve got a ton of other, more important stuff already on their plate? Unfortunately I don’t think there’s much you can do about that, unless you have a close relationship with senior management and can push to rehire some admin staff.

    2. CAA*

      Doing it myself is the only thing that’s ever worked for me. Nobody cares about my money as much as I do.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Seconding this. When I’ve been without an admin and relying on more junior people, it almost always paid off to just do it myself.

      2. zora*

        Yeah, I work for an agency in an… adjacent field.. and the way our company dealt with reducing Admin support positions is just to make most people do their own scheduling/travel/expense reports/timekeeping. Only the top tier of executives have someone else to help with those things, and even some of them do some of those things themselves. So, you might need to just do more of your stuff for yourself if you want it done faster or better.

        That said, one thing that made a huge difference for travel booking is we have a travel agency arrangement. Booking travel is so easy, there is a central booking website, but also you can just send an email with what you want to the travel agents and they will book everything for you. Or do research if you don’t know what you want yet.

        I would run that idea up the flag pole if you don’t have that already, or look into adjusting your arrangement with the travel agency (usually there are different pay tiers for different levels of service or number of team members at the agency, etc.) I would be willing to bet that if they do the math, the travel agency will be cheaper than the time of junior staff, especially if they are taking away from their billable time.

      3. Chaordic One*

        This was my experience. If I wanted it done right I did it myself. (I felt sorry for a few a the senior people who had to rely on these junior admin people because they never learned to type and had no idea of how to do these kinds of basic things for themselves, but as the collective AAM hive mind says, “Not my monkeys, not my circus,” and I kept my mouth shut. (I was afraid that I might end up getting stuck with the task.)

    3. Anon (this time)*

      I love that people think admin tasks are unskilled and “anyone can do it”. No, they can’t. That’s why the juniors aren’t doing it well. Administrative duties are skilled labor.

      In the situation your company has placed you in, the way to get it done right is to do it yourself. Hope they like ‘saving money’ by wasting their employees’ time like this.

      1. What’s with today, today?*

        I agree. I wouldn’t even know where to start if given a task like processing someone else’s reimbursement report. And booking travel for myself makes me stress out. I’m sure they were trained a little, but still…there’s a reason some people aren’t admin staff…I would suck at that job.

      2. Michelle*

        Thank you both. I am an admin and sometimes I get the feeling that people do not respect the things we do.

        1. Frankie*

          That belief REALLY bothers me. I’ve done a bunch of admin work in the past and I’ve also gotten a couple of advanced degrees in unrelated fields. There were always a few fellow grad students incensed when they couldn’t get hired for random admin jobs because they thought of themselves as overqualified. I rolled my eyes at them so hard. Admin work often requires a weird combo of obsessive attention to detail and large amounts of people/political savvy. It’s really not work for everyone.

      3. Delta Delta*

        This bothers me too! I’m an attorney. I worked in a firm where the hiring partner believed admin work was unskilled. He couldn’t figure out why admin tasks weren’t done correctly and why we could never keep admin staff. He wanted to pay $11/hour to people fresh out of high school and didn’t get it why they couldn’t do the work at the level he wanted. They were generally all nice people but lacked the appropriate skills. Maddening for everyone involved.

    4. A bit of a saga*

      Ah yes. At my previous agency they got rid of most of the finance folks and left it to consultants at all levels to do their own admin and sort out billings with clients. You can probably imagine how that went..

    5. WellRed*

      It’s not going to work, because not only are they not admins, they were not hired to be admins, they have other work and frankly, you’re probably gonna start seeing turnover among the junior level staff who will go elsewhere where the company won’t dump this stuff on them.
      I have never heard of anyone not doing their own expense report. I can’t even figure out my own receipts half the time.

    6. Bea*

      Are you an executive?! Why is anyone filling out expense reports? I only do them for a few people because I’m accounting. A person dealing with customers shouldn’t also be tasked with other people’s paperwork unless it’s in their original job description. They’re probably overworked and underpaid, of course your paperwork isn’t on their priorities list!

      1. Margery*

        Yea – this – I don’t understand why you don’t do them yourself?

        At least you’d get it right and on time.

      2. Washi*

        This seems a little unfair. Whatever AdAgencyChick’s position is, they were probably told that it was part of the admins’ jobs to do expense reports for them, and then told to ask specific junior employees to do it when admin positions were eliminated.

        “Do it yourself” is probably the best course of action in this situation, given how things have shaken out, but I don’t think AdAgencyChick was wrong to first try the new system of giving it to a junior employee.

        1. Bea*

          If someone told me Suzie, jr teapot designer could do my paperwork, I would stink eye and do it myself. When the organization flowchart looks out of wack, I don’t care who tells me Suzie can handle Random Task she’s had tacked on, I’m not rolling with it.

          It’s also the same for asking the accounting clerk to start handling the sales team’s calendars or any weirdness. They need to reorganize better and you shouldn’t feed into the disarray!

        2. Observer*

          I wouldn’t say wrong, but totally unrealistic. The juniors don’t report to her, they have no reason to care about her money, and her money is not only not their priority, it is NOT SUPPOSED to be their priority. If her reimbursements get delayed because they were busy doing billable work, they’ll be ok. If they drop billable hours or annoy a client because they were doing the reimbursement work, they will be in trouble.

    7. A. Librarian*

      During the “reorganization” several years ago, my company did away with administrative assistants. Of course, now no one knows who is supposed to make sure ordering supplies is done, or even if they need to be ordered, so we’re always running out of pencils.

    8. Gumby*

      How is it saving money for people who presumably make more than admins to do those tasks? Was there not enough work to support a full-time admin? Or are the juniors salaried so their time is “free”? Because it really, really is not.

      Where I am now we have minimal admin support because we’re small. People are used to doing thing for themselves. As in, I’m 90% sure the CEO books his own travel and 100% sure that everyone does their own expense reports. Of the tasks you mentioned the only one that our receptionist does is order food for meetings when we have customers here (as far as that is related to “planning meetings”).

    9. Incantanto*

      Tbh we all currently have to book our own travel and do expenses reports, up to the CTO.
      The one admin person was let go for consistently complicating things.

      Generally, it helps if we have clear guidance on budgets and allowable expenses, that are known to everyone, including good communication: the accountant didn’t tell the more junior of us that we couldn’t take out currency on our bank cards, which would have been useful to know before the airport.

      Most big expenses will go on company cards, though, so at least its not our momey we are spending. They might quibble bits, butnusually its fine.

    10. ..Kat..*

      Have the non-admins even received training in how to do this admin work? Probably not. And I’m guessing that they already had enough to do before extra work was shoved onto them with no extra compensation (otherwise it would not save money).

      I recommend pushing for company credit card so that at least you aren’t out the money.

  17. AwkwardTurtle*

    What’s the best way to propose remote work to your supervisor? I’m currently on the East coast but want to move back to California because I’m tired of the East coast and am missing home.

    1. Partly Cloudy*

      I’m sorry that I don’t have an actual response for you, but had to share that I initially read your question as “What’s the best way to propose to my supervisor at work?” O.O

      :)

      2. Jemima Bond*

        I think go traditional. Down on one knee, bunch of red roses, profess undying love, proffer large Tiffany diamond ring.
        Unless your supervisor favours a creative, innovative approach, in which case lie down on their desk with a shot of tequila in your cleavage (bum cleavage if you’re a chap) and tell them all this can be theirs if they just say yes…

    2. RachelTW*

      If this is something that you think has a reasonable chance of being granted (like other people work remotely). I would prepare your proposal of how you would be able to complete all your tasks at the same level while remote (and despite the time differences) and the resources you would expect them to provide to make that happen (if any). But, would it make more sense to look for a job on the West Coast instead? I might consider job searching ahead of time before proposing. You could leave yourself open if you tell your boss you are considering relocating (but you would know your boss’s likely reaction the best).

    3. CAA*

      Think about how this will work and be prepared to explain that to your supervisor. I’m assuming that your job can be done remotely, and it’s not the kind of thing where you need to answer phones or handle paper. The kinds of things your supervisor will probably care about are your availability and willingness to start work 3 hours earlier every day; how easy it will be to reach you by instant message or phone; some way to measure your continued productivity; how you plan to maintain relationships with other coworkers.

      You also need to know in your own mind whether you will relocate even if you can’t work remotely for this company and when that might happen. If you plan to be back in CA by the end of February, then you will need to know about the remote work by end of December, or whatever works with your plans.

    4. Nita*

      I’d lay out how I think this would work, and be prepared for the boss to say no. A few people in my office have done this, but it’s not easy for them because once they’re not here, they aren’t as “visible” and only the people they work with directly know what they’re up to. Others would never be able to do it, because their work involves being here physically – although how often you absolutely have to be present, varies from once in a couple of weeks, to every single day.

    5. WellRed*

      Is this a situation where the fact that you want to move to California will complicate this because they have such different, (worker-friendly) laws that you’re employer might not want to deal with it?

    6. SJ*

      You may also want to be sure your company can do work in California. I seem to remember a recent email about this subject…the company has to be registered or something like that in California and you will fall under California employment laws which can be quite different. Wish I could remember the email specifically…anyone???

      1. De Minimis*

        My guess is if they don’t already have employees or some other activity in California they are going to be hesitant to establish a business presence in that state.

        At my last job I had to deal with things like that—management wanted this one guy to be put on payroll over the summer and he lived in a state where we didn’t have any employees or activity. So I had to get it all set up. Some states are easier than others, but it’s always kind of a headache.

        If it’s a larger company though it probably won’t be an issue if they already have people there. Hopefully it will just come down to whether the supervisor thinks it will work.

      2. Belle*

        Yeah, California, Washington and Oregon all have very specific state HR laws that can be a hassle if they don’t have employees there already. If they do – great. But it not, then a lot of companies might say no just because of the extra admin stuff (workers comp, state leave, special sick leave policies, overtime laws, etc).

    7. TK*

      Some things to consider:
      – Does your office have a good online communication infrastructure? Email, instant chats, video-calling system for meetings, etc? My company is big on face-to-face conversations and stopping by people’s desks to talk, so it is not really an option to work remote, other than a day working from home once in a while.
      – Would your schedule need to stay on East Coast hours to match your teammates, and if so, could you commit to that?
      – Are you known as a really solid achiever, self-starter, and productive employee? Your manager is likely to trust you to get work done remotely if you have a great track record of unsupervised successes. If you don’t, I would spend the next few months building that skill and recording your achievements, so you can make a case to your manager about your ability to work well remotely.

      Good luck!!

    8. ZSD*

      My husband has this set up, but for opposite coasts: His job is based in CA, and when we moved to the DC area, he was able to propose and set up remote work.
      One big selling point was that since he starts work at 9 AM East Coast time, he’s logging in at 6 AM Pacific time and is able to fix all the overnight-appearing problems to websites before the rest of the university gets online in the morning. (He does web design and management.)
      Is there some analogous advantage to your working late East Coast time from California? Like, will you be able to be on-call for unexpected announcements from the Hill that might come out after your colleagues have gone home from the day? (Your job might have nothing to do with political work. I was just trying to come up with an example.)

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Agreed on that. It can be a big point.
        I was in the US-East as part of a European team. I could work with them in the morning and take the “hand off” if you will so they could go home at a decent hour. Like your husband, my work is of the type that could be done anywhere with internet.

    9. Lady Kelvin*

      My husband was able to negotiate remote work when I got a job in Hawaii and we were based in DC. There were several key things that made it ok for his office: 1. he has some coworkers who telework already from the midwest and west coast. 2. His job is 30-50% travel, so he still gets face to face time with his clients and he was able to show that his travel costs weren’t more expensive despite living in Hawaii vs DC (he did change some of his projects so he was traveling to the west coast and not the east coast, but it worked out). 3. He already had a 4 year track record of being an awesome employee and they didn’t want to lose him. 4. He had to continue to work east coast hours and be available for morning meetings. This means that he was always up and working by 4am (10am DC time) and sometimes had meetings as early as 2 or 3am. It was nice because he was usually done working around noon, but also we have no social life because he goes to bed between 7-8 at night. 5. His company already has an office established here so he can still access tech support, visit the office, etc. without having to travel back to DC.

      He did just negotiate a move to a new company based in florida where he will be teleworking full time. Thankfully it is not client focused so he won’t have to work quite as early hours, but still has to be available/willing to get up for 9:30-10am eastern time meetings. Hawaii is a bit extreme because we are remote and 6 hours different during most of the year, but I would imagine similar concessions would make teleworking more palatable for a company.

    10. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Also good to ask yourself if you would be good at telework, despite the geography.

      I don’t have telework experience myself but I did tele-classes for grad school for a while. But I found each 60 min class would take me 2 hours because I would miss a word and rewind, stop for a snack, decide I needed to do a load of laundry, etc. It ended up being more efficient for me to go to class and be able to whisper to someone sitting next to me “what did he or she say?” or let it go then be at home.

      Plus, being at home was lonely in addition to being distracting (for me).

      So I know you want to be in California but wanting to do telework and wanting to move aren’t the same thing. If you would not be happy/productive at telework tempermentally/organizationally/socially, it may be better just to job search in California.

      And it may be worth trying part time telework where you are now so that you can prove to your boss and yourself that you are up for it.

  18. LJ*

    I saw a BBC article that actually discussed a study stating that workers are less stressed and more active in an open office plan. It was the first positive post I’ve actually seen about it. Thoughts?

    (Link in name)

    1. Not So Super-visor*

      I guess that it would depend on the work that you do. For me, it’s miserable. As a manager, the open office plan makes it really difficult to discuss performance issues with employees. I have to book a conference room which are in high demand and not remotely close to our department. It’s seen as a “Walk of Shame” when I have to bring someone into conference room for a discussion even if it’s something as simple as discussing their plans for FMLA leave. I’ve also had multiple issues with people looking over my shoulder at projects that I’ve been working on that weren’t ready to share with the group and ask detailed questions. And don’t get me started on how people feel that since there aren’t any doors that they can just walk into my tiny cube and start talking without checking to see if I’m in the middle of something and available…
      Rant over.

      2. Whatsinaname*

        Same here. And it makes it impossible to give any immediate feedback because fifteen other people can overhear it. Never mind doing any sort of confidential stuff on my pc as anyone can look right at it. I tried coming in early to have a little bit of privacy but my overly conscientiously employee decided that they must be there when I come in. Sigh.

      3. Close Bracket*

        If you have a cube, you don’t have an open office.

        > And don’t get me started on how people feel that since there aren’t any doors that they can just walk into my tiny cube and start talking without checking to see if I’m in the middle of something and available…

        Welcome to how the other half lives.

    2. Ennigaldi*

      “This could be because they make the effort to find privacy to talk away from their desk, the researchers said.” This is certainly true for me, because everyone overhears everyone’s business in my office and a couple of coworkers will weaponize that information if they decide they don’t like you for any reason. I’m a talker but this place has taught me to keep my mouth shut!

    3. Really*

      Washington Post had an article about a month ago about how open floor plans are just as bad as you thought.

    4. DaniCalifornia*

      I’ve only ever had open office plans and I wish I didn’t. I’ve never been able to have a quiet uninterrupted work space that didn’t spill into others or where I could hear everything. I long for the day that I might have an office or even a cubicle!

      It’s interesting that the article relates stress with activity. I noticed it said it was only an observational study so I’m not sure what that entails or if it’s less scientific in a way? I wouldn’t automatically relate not getting up and walking around work to being more stressed though. In my case (anecdotally of course) I would be less stressed if I could have some peace and quiet to finish my work without constant questions, noises from coworkers, phone calls and clients coming in.

    5. Birch*

      So, the full article (the actual journal article, which BBC, to their credit, linked) is behind a paywall that I can’t access despite having an institutional login to the journal. I’m incredibly skeptical given that everything else I’ve seen shows that open office spaces are not good, especially combined with techniques like hotdesking that prevent people from having control over their own workspace. I did find a systematic review from 2017 about office design and health, but it’s in a very low impact journal and not well cited so I’m not willing to put my pseudonym behind it and I don’t have the time to check their methods thoroughly. It did conclude that open office spaces are strongly linked to more sickness leave, less productivity, and more stress, which is consistent with many of the other studies. (P.S. in case people don’t know, a systematic review is done to get the full picture of a specific topic using all the research that has been done on it to date. Especially when combined with meta-analysis it’s more trustworthy than a single study because it tends to even out the differences caused by methodological errors, sampling error, and lack of statistical power.)

      1. Birch*

        Also I wanna take the opportunity to get on my academic soapbox for a minute and remind everyone that journalism is not science. Even reputable news sources regularly misrepresent the results. The journalist will call you up with some questions intended to make a clickbait title and take anything you say as a quote out of context. Please try to track down the original scientific article (google scholar is the trick for this! use the name of the researcher and the topic) and at least read the abstract, which will tell you in basic language what the study was about. Most people would understand more of an article than they think if you just take the time to read carefully. And if you have a friend in the sciences, in research or education, I’m 100% sure they would be willing to help if you get stuck on a concept. We need more science literacy, and everyone can help by making sure they understand an article and can comment on it critically before sharing it on social media. /Sorry for the hijack, LJ!

        1. the gold digger*

          Journalism science:

          Austin American Statesman, late 1980s: “X% of the blood samples drawn at UT student health center are HIV positive, therefore X% of the entire UT student body is HIV positive.”

      2. RabbitRabbit*

        I have access. They used wearables to study 231 workers in 4 US federal office buildings, and compared open bench vs cubicle vs private office.

        “Workers in open bench seating were more active at the office than those in private offices and cubicles (open bench seating vs private office=225.52 mG (31.83% higher on average) (95% CI 136.57 to 314.46); open bench seating vs cubicle=185.13 mG (20.16% higher on average) (95% CI 66.53 to 303.72)). Furthermore, workers in open bench seating experienced lower perceived stress at the office than those in cubicles (−0.27 (9.10% lower on average) (95% CI −0.54 to −0.02)). Finally, higher physical activity at the office was related to lower physiological stress (higher heart rate variability in the time domain) outside the office (−26.12 ms/mG (14.18% higher on average) (95% CI −40.48 to −4.16)).”

        My concern is that these were not randomly assigned seats, and so something about how those offices delegate work to various employees may have the greatest effect on stress.

        1. Birch*

          Thanks! I could read the abstract but not the full text. I don’t think the abstract tells the whole story–for example the stress factor is only given comparing cubicles and open bench–what was the stress level for private offices? Also the last part with activity in the office being related to stress outside the office–what about stress inside the office, and what about activity outside the office? Did they look at physical activity levels in general outside the office, or covary personality factors? What about baseline work stress–like you said, based on differences in work tasks themselves? I’m wondering if there’s some confounds based on activity and stress levels in general that would make extroverted, active people be happier in open office formats.

          1. RabbitRabbit*

            I just took a look – apparently my institution stopped buying their journal. Argh. But yes, there are a ton of things to control for and all we got was “well, people move more in open bench seating and have less stress.” Are people with jobs involving more moving around (different sites, different duties) assigned to that style of seating? I can think of groups at my institution who that makes sense for.

        2. Observer*

          Nothing here changes my fundamental opinion. It’s simply ridiculous to conclude that wearables give you a better measure of stress than self reports. “Your heart rate is not spiking” is NOT the same as “You are not stressed.”

          Even if the wearables were measuring BP, breathing and oxygen levels as well as heart rate, it would be pretty stupid.

    6. BRR*

      I have to admit that my gut reaction was to find a flaw in the process or how the conclusion is stated because I hate open office plans. I’m fine with the active part. It’s an interesting perspective. I read stress like the emotion but I think the article is mostly talking about stress like how you would describe a medical stress test (it’s not clear to me). So if someone is more active they would then be less stressed in the physical way, but the open office plan probably increases stress in the emotional way.

      “the researchers found open plan offices could have other benefits, such as better communication, more impromptu conversations and increased awareness of colleagues.” I do agree that open office plans do increase awareness of colleagues but that’s a bad thing.

      1. Alice*

        As long as you are thinking metacognitively about your gut reaction, instead of just following it blindly, you get critical appraisal points!

    7. KX*

      Are we less stressed? Maybe. But we are lonelier. We recently (six months ago) went from a low cubicle wall, assigned seating floor plan to a first come, first pick open seating floor plan, and I think we are lonelier. We have a noisy I mean “active” side and a quiet side, but even the active side is very quiet. And we have always had a flexible hours culture, but now people work from home noticeably more often.

      There’s just nowhere to sit and chit chat. The break room has some tables but it’s much smaller, and you can’t just pull up a chair and hang out, and nobody really walks around to ask questions because half the office has to sit on the quiet side.

      The natural light is better. So that’s nice.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      Was the study funded by the people who profit off open office plans? Probably doesn’t matter anyway – now that it exists, every company will be citing it as a reason their open office plan doesn’t suck no matter what their employees say. “No, you are less stressed now than when you had an office, this one article says so!”

      I’ve mentioned it here before but a start-up company I interviewed with (before withdrawing) said they were using open offices because that’s what the successful Silicon Valley start-ups. I didn’t get a chance to argue that those handful of companies were successful despite the open office plan, not because of it! Just ask the 99% of failed startups with open offices…

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        Funded by a US General Services Administration contract. It studied employees in federal office buildings.

    9. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I work in an open office and all I can say is ” I would looooove to have a cubicle” for so many reasons.

    10. Anon, obviously*

      My old company went to a more open floor plan several years ago as part of a necessary renovation (water line broke over a long weekend, it wasn’t pretty) because CEO read a study that it improved productivity and increased collaboration, or claimed he did. I suspect he really just wanted everyone where he could come up behind them to see what was on their screens at any given time. Then he complained that people in the open areas were being too loud when they were collaborating.

      That decision started the not-so-slow decline and is one reason I’m not there. People who are still there tell me that these days, if you don’t have an office your day is hell, people walking right up to you and interrupting, people holding conversations in your area when you’re trying to work, and a lot of turnover. CEO now has an office with a door and a “DO NOT KNOCK – email me if you need me and I’ll come to you” sign because the open office has created a situation where anyone feels free to interrupt anyone else’s work.

      There are other problems with this CEO that aren’t relevant to open office culture, no surprises.

    11. Jady*

      This is definitely the first pro study I’ve ever seen. Seen hundreds of con studies though, so I’m extremely skeptical.

      Being more active? I guess I can see that, I get up and away from my desk more often just to get away from other people and noise. Physically healthier, which is good. A big negative to productivity though.

      Stress though, I’ve read articles that say the exact opposite.

      I think it’s important to remember that a LOT of variance is possible between companies. An open office space that has white noise machines, headphones for everyone, private offices that people can reserve or duck into quickly, sectioned out spaces (instead of a huge cafeteria-style layout), allows remote work or has in-field work, not to even mention nature of the work itself. An open layout may work a lot better in one industry than another. And company culture (respect of other peoples time and space) is also a big factor.

      Is it possible to have a positive open office layout environment? Probably. Does that mean it’s typical? Not necessarily.

    12. Ann O.*

      I’m not going to claim my experience was representative, but I had a positive open office experience. The noise was overwhelming on my first day but then my brain got used to it, and it turned into a white noise type of background that actually ended up helping me focus. Because there was always background chatter, it still felt like individual conversations were reasonably private.

      I liked being able to easily see if a co-worker I needed to talk to was at their desk and how easy it was to grab them (partially a job role thing–as a technical editor, I often need to track down subject matter experts to get information or final approvals from them. They’re notorious for ignoring our emails and review deadlines).

      But we also had a lot of conference room spaces for private meetings so manager one-on-ones and other confidential type of things were very much confidential. We did not hotdesk, so we could use ergo tools to configure out workstations. Hotdesking would be a deal breaker for me–it would destroy my body.

    13. Jemima Bond*

      In my eighteen year government career I’ve never worked in anything but an open plan office so I’m completely institutionalised. Fwiw it doesn’t bother me though. Only people at the level of my great-great-grandboss get offices.

    14. Chaordic One*

      There was an article about a month ago or so, where the writer claimed that open offices worked when management imposed “library rules,” meaning that people had to keep their voices low and not spend time visiting and discussing non-business matters. The way you’d behave in an old-fashioned public library.

      Sshhh!

    15. ..Kat..*

      This article says that the open office workers are more active at work (I.e., they walk around more.

      It also says they have less stress OUTSIDE OF WORK.

      Does not say anything about work stress or work productivity.

      And, it is a small, one off study that does not include enough detail to determine whether it was a well designed study. I’m guessing not.

    16. Observer*

      The study as described is pretty useless. For one thing it doesn’t even touch productivity. For another – and this is explicitly called out in the description – they don’t control for any other factor that might contribute to the differences they seem to be seeing.

      I could go on about the study design, but when the whole concept is so flawed it doesn’t matter.

  19. Marie the Chef*

    Last week I found out my org (nonprofit) was eliminating my program and laying me off at the end of September. It’s a bit of a blessing in disguise – the org is a mess (we either owe or are late on paying payroll taxes, our paychecks were late last week, most of the board is supposedly leaving at the end of the year). Plus my ED didn’t even tell me this news herself – she was 15 minutes late to the meeting, so the board member she invited as well had to tell me.

    One interesting thing came of it – they offered to “help” me take on my program as my own. What exactly they mean by that and how much actual help they would provide has me side-eyeing hard (they have been no help in the past two years as I turned this program around from a financial drain to providing actual income). But it’s made me think. I know the program finances (hell, I created the budget from scratch). It’s the most stable and consistent part of the organization. I know at least two program partners who would come with me. I could potentially run it part-time (no way at this point I could do it full-time and pay my bills). However I’d want it cut cleanly from my current org so there were no ties between them.

    What would you do? What questions would you be asking? Am I nuts for considering this?

    1. Earth Wind & Fire*

      You mean you would run the program as its own non-profit? If so, I have thoughts on that.

      1. Marie the Chef*

        Yes, essentially. And to answer some questions that came in below related to yours – yes, it could stand on its own with its own mission, partners, clients, funding. Frankly it has already, but the current org now wants to get rid of the costs of operating it (namely, me) and thinks they can still reap the rewards (the money I brought in via renters, partners, etc).

        Someone else mentioned fiscal sponsorship below, which is an interesting idea that I hadn’t thought of, and I have another org with a related mission that I’ve built a relationship with who might be receptive.

    2. Ali G*

      If they are dissolving the current NP they are legally obligated to give any leftover funds to other NPs. They may be meaning that they might have funds to seed your program as a stand-alone NP. I would only consider this if you can appoint your own board members, and be 100% in charge. And if it is truly something you can do part time while you grow the org and seek broader funding. Is the program something that would attract its own funding outside a larger organization?

      1. Marie the Chef*

        I don’t think they’re currently dissolving the whole org (though who knows, given the current issues), but yes, I agree 100% that I would want full control. Which is why I emailed my ED this morning to ask about our existing contracts with the building this program operates out of (my program provides the building with free services in lieu of rent). Her reply made me laugh out loud – “Whatever you do would, at least at first, have to be somehow tied to (current org) for contractual reasons.” NOPE. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

    3. Earth Wind & Fire*

      The real question: is the program a stand alone mission that could garner community and funding support? Does it meet a need sufficient outside its original non-profit mission from which it grew? You have to do a thorough assessment, as if you were starting a new business: what’s your mission value proposition, who are your donors, who are your partners, who are your clients, what channels will you communicate your work/mission/needs, what resources do you have/need to start and grow? Is another non-profit already doing this and should this remain a project within a larger non-profit?

      I work with a non-profit that split from its faith church, where it was a program, and only did so when it was fully formed and financially able to do so. It has it’s own mission (food distribution hub to its community partners) and it could stand alone.

      1. Marie the Chef*

        I answered some of this in a reply to a question above, but yes, I did most of this due diligence almost 2 years ago when I came on board to run the program – created a business plan, budget, analyzed target audiences, competition, partners, etc.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Point of clarification: If you moved the program away from the organization, what legal structure would you plan to operate it under? (Form a new nonprofit, find a home for it at another nonprofit, operate it as your own revenue-generating business, etc.)

    5. Kimmo*

      I don’t think it’s crazy at all, you just have to get down into the details before you make a decision. From what little info we have here, it sounds like you might want to look into fiscal sponsorship; find an org with a related mission, ask them to house the program, ideally with some funding from the original org, and maybe even they’d be able to/want to hire you full time to grow and run the program under their own operations and administrative function. Worth looking into!

    6. theletter*

      I think you should pat yourself on the back. It sounds like you were the most competent and successful person in this company and the board member recognizes that and wants you to take on a critical leadership role.

      1. Marie the Chef*

        Thanks. Unfortunately the board member is problematic in her own right, but other staff, partners, and clients agree that this was the most competently run part of the organization!

  20. Phoenix Programmer*

    Healthcare workers! I just found that all managers in our system are required to have been or have earned a nursing degree. No exceptions.

    Is this common? Do other hospital systems limit management to RNs only?

    1. Tardigrade*

      I’m not a clinician but I work in healthcare, and in our system you need to have a nursing or medical degree to manage RNs or otherwise make decisions about things that directly affect clinicians or patient care. For corporate/IT jobs, that’s not necessary.

      2. Red Reader*

        Same. At my hospital system, clinical managers have to be RNs, administrative managers not so much.

      3. Shannon*

        Same at my heathcare job. I’m on the insurance side. No one in my line of bosses has an RN, you just don’t need it for our duties.

      4. RabbitRabbit*

        Same. I work in a hospital/clinic/medical school combo, and you only need that kind of degree if your oversight involves clinical care decisions.

      5. Public Health Nerd*

        Yes, at my former large academic hospital, about 95% of hospital management required a clinical degree or faculty appointment. Line managers for non clinicians don’t require a clinical degree, but lack advancement to higher levels of leadership.

      6. MatKnifeNinja*

        I worked as floor staff for 10 years in a hospital.

        Everyone who was a shift manager had to have a BSN to supervise. There were two older supervisors who had a diploma certificate from a nursing school. The managers covered the afternoon and midnight shift nursing staff issues for the whole

        This was 1980-1994. If the the Head Nurse, managed a floor (that’s what my hospital called them) had only a diploma or associate’s degree, they had to get their BSN. The hospital paid them. You had no choice.

        Spring forward to now…the all the floors my dad was on during his brain tumour treatments, all the floor administrators had a minimum of MSN. The ICU administrator had a PhD in something healthcare related.

        (administrator=head nurse in charge of that floor)

        So yeah…anything patient care related that has a RN in a supervisory position managing staff has a minimum of a BSN with X amount of clinical experience.

        Even the head of medical records at my old hospital has an MSN, besides whatever else she needs for that job credential wise.

        If you are already an RN with an associates degree, hopefully work will pick up the tuition.

        The person working on the hopital computer systems doesn’t need a BSN.

    3. State rn*

      I’m a nurse in state gov and I think these policies are dumb. There are clinical settings where everyone is a nurse, so there it makes sense. But in mixed professions settings, there’s a wide range of skilled managers and limiting yourself to nurses restricts career growth and your best people entering leadership. I hear claims that nurses must be supervised by nurses, but it’s BS.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        Yeah I am thinking I will have to leave healthcare if the tide is swinging back to “managers must have worked in x role to manage x role” in this field.

    4. SJ*

      As a healthcare worker myself, I prefer my management to BE medically trained first. If you’re a nursing supervisor, be a nurse first. If you’re a lab supervisor, be a lab tech first. Etc. It is often difficult, at least from the worker’s perspective, for a manager with no medical background to ‘get’ what we need.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        I am talking about 2 and 3 levels above that as well though. Overseeing departments where the direct supervisory is handled by line managers and nurse leads. They are now requiring those positions be RN as well. A great example is HR director requires an RN.

        So far TS and Finance are the only ones that don’t. But they are requiring other certs like a CPA or DB administration for those. Leaves us analysts woth little trajectory.

    5. savannnah*

      I’m running into this sort of issue as well. I was a medical simulationist at the directors level back on the east coast before my move to Portland and now am finding that all the managers and director level jobs out here require a RN degree, which is incredibly frustrating and frankly about 20+ years behind the field. At a real loss at what my next move will be besides networking enough to get my resume in front of someone behind the grand HR filter.

  21. Just Me*

    I struggled with whether I should email Alison, or post here. Ultimately I decided I’d love to hear a variety of comments, but feel free to weigh in, Alison! And I apologize if this is really long-winded!

    My company is being sold. The sale will happen in the next month, but we’ll be around for a few more months to tie things up. In a couple weeks we will all find out the fate of our future as employees with the new company. I think it’s likely that I’ll be a manager again, either at the new company or somewhere else. So, my question is about managing a new team.

    Some background: I worked for my first company for over a decade. I was there on the day it opened and there the day it closed. I evolved into the go-to person, Jill-of-all-trades, manager, and indirect manager. I was the one who knew where the bodies were hidden and how they got there. I felt I was well-respected; I was third in command in the company (although it was very, very small–less than 20 employees total); I got along with everyone even though a couple were…difficult; I was pretty confident and I had no problem just jumping into conversations, be it social or work-related. At my current company, a much bigger company, I came into a very small team that had been together couple years and was managed by my boss, Jane. My job had been offered to Mary, the senior person, but she declined as she was quite burned out. That’s why I was hired. They also expanded the team at the same time. I’d always felt as though Mary regretted not taking my job, and she confirmed that about a year after I started. So there’s always been a bit of awkwardness there, especially because I’ve sometimes heard her saying “my boss” and she’s referring to Jane, not me. She’s got the kind of demeanor that makes her seem unapproachable sometimes, and she tends to be very friendly with one person on the team. That’s fine, as it’s not my job to police friendships. It didn’t stop anyone from getting their job done, but I do know now that it created some hurt feelings (a team member mentioned it to me in confidence). So combined with Mary’s demeanor, the tendency for her to be a bit cliquish (with others, too, not just the one person), knowing she actually did want my job, it made me retreat more into my office and not “hang out” in my team’s area nearly as much as I did at the other company. (When Mary is away I’m over there much more often.) We still get the work done. Questions got answered, goals were met, knowledge was shared, we worked on things one-on-one, etc. Also, being that Mary is the senior person, I tend to leave the team mostly to her on the day-to-day stuff.

    Going into my next job, whatever that is, I really want to be a better manager. I don’t want to let the Marys of the world get into my head and stop me from feeling less confident in myself. I know that’s all on me, though, and I need to get over it, but how does one do that? I want to be the person I was at the first company, but I think going into a new company is what knocks my confidence down quite a bit. I’ll say, too, that I’d like to improve on the critical feedback aspect of the job. I tend to shy away from the tough stuff; I’ve done it, but it was really hard. (Although, I’ve been pretty lucky to have people who are good employees and don’t have discipline issues.) I also want to have one-on-ones with the next team. That wasn’t a thing at all at the first company, and it’s sporadic at the current one; some departments do them and some don’t. My team didn’t want to do them, so most of our conversations tend to happen organically. (Yes, I know, I need to do them.) And a company I was at in between these two companies, my manager (a micromanager) had one-on-ones, but it was her coming in with a stack of work and giving it to me with instructions, or getting the status on things—there were no career development discussions during these meetings.

    Going into a new team, what have you said to people to communicate what you expect from them? Did you have a team meeting and go over some of the basics and then in more detail one-on-one? What worked for you and what didn’t? I want to communicate that I expect people to be adults and that I will treat them that way in return; to do their work to the best of their ability; and that I don’t micromanage, among other things. I want to say it nicely, of course, but the bottom line is I want people to do their jobs to the best of their ability and to treat people with respect.

    1. AliceW*

      I have always met one-on-one with my teams on a bi-weekly basis or if the team is very small a group meeting is fine too. I would think it strange if a manager said they expected me to be an adult and made other types of pronouncements up front on their management style and expectations. I just make sure I know what each employee’s responsibilities are and then I develop goals for them, set expectations etc and manage them as necessary over time. Some people need more feedback, handholding etc, some don’t. There’s no one size fits all approach. I have always played it by ear. Good luck.

      1. Just Me*

        Yeah, I don’t think I’d actually say “I want you to be an adult.” I just mean that in general I tend to expect it, as do most managers I would guess. I’m sure there’s a much better way to communicate that without actually saying that. I guess it mostly comes from having someone micromanage me who treated me like a five year old, and seeing coworkers act like children and get away with it (not direct reports).

        1. Debonairess*

          Depending on what the new policy is about timekeeping, what about saying something like “we’re all adults here so I trust you to manage your time; if you need to come in a bit later or leave a bit earlier now and then, that’s fine with me” – gets across the idea that you trust people and won’t be micro-managing but links it to timekeeping rather than job tasks, which feels slightly less odd (patronising?), at least to me.
          Good luck in the new role!

    2. Debonairess*

      I have a weekly catch up with my team (half an hour max) where we outline our priorities for the week and then people have a chance to raise any issues they’ve had/ any successes.
      Plus monthly one to ones. However I only manage two people.
      Depending on how big your team is, monthly one to ones might not always be practical. I see this in my own boss, who manages about 20 people and can never remember from one monthly meeting to another what is going on, or has any time to do anything in between. I’d much rather have a 6 weekly meeting where I thought she had had time to prepare and would have time to follow up afterwards.
      I wouldn’t;t start by outlining expectations quite like you have said above; I’d probably just try and have an initial individual meeting asking what their goals are, to be honest about how realistic they are, progress etc, and if there are any “quick wins” that would make their roles easier.
      There’s a book called the first 90 days (turquoise cover) which i liked – it had some ideas about things to do early on in order to establish rapport with a team.

      1. Just Me*

        Oh, thanks! That sounds like a book I should read.

        I didn’t phrase it very well above, and I wouldn’t say it all like that.

        My former micromanaging boss had a team of five people and she did a one-on-one every.single.week. And each one was more than an hour, usually an hour and a half. It was terrible.

    3. Feliz*

      I started as a manager at a new company exactly a year ago. Team of 5, one of which had applied for my role & wasn’t successful (couldn’t organise his way out of a paper bag). I have weekly 1-1’s with all of them – booked in for 30min, sometimes we’re done in 10-15. The company requires quarterly reviews, which are a great chance to make sure that we remember to focus on the long game, not just the day-to-day stuff. Especially at the start I asked a lot of questions in the 1-1’s – what do you like about your role, what challenges are there, what would make it easier etc. The 1-1’s are mandatory – I know at least one team member doesn’t love them but I find them very useful.

      We have a team meeting approx monthly – which to be honest I find hard. There are some quieter members of the team so it’s hard to feel like they’re engaged. We’ll usually go over some admin stuff, pick a process to review/improve and then a fun thing at the end – usually trying competitor products. At the start I did go over the basics – my door is always open, some flex but you need to be here at these hours etc.

      Hard conversations – Alison’s advice is gold. What drives me to have them is the thought that if I say nothing then I will have to live with the annoyance of underperforming people – which is way more of a time & energy suck! So far I’ve had two that I thought I was going to have to put on PIP – but they have both chosen to leave (thank goodness! Even with months of coaching prior to that point they were still incapable of doing the job)

      In general I try to be outwardly confident – even if I have no idea what’s going on. I’m happy to say things like “Hmm, I’ve never dealt with something like that and I’m not sure what our best course of action is. Has it happened before and if so, what did you do? If it hasn’t, do you have any thoughts on what we could do or who we could talk to about it? What are our options?” It’s ok not to have all the answers!

      In general I really enjoy it. The first 3mths were insane, the next 3 I started to get my bearings, and now, a year later I feel like I’m (mostly) on top of things.

      Good luck!

    1. CTT*

      That the employer pays people to attend the Bible study is such a weird wrinkle that I would think makes it even worse, but also if his lawyer is arguing that then maybe there’s something to it (or he’s just trying a new argument?) I was really expecting it to be “no, he was fired for doing substandard work.” Bold move!

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I just read that story this morning on NPR and considered posting it here.

      I will be shocked if he doesn’t win the suit. Maybe if he was in the bible belt, I’d be concerned, but in Oregon?

      1. CTT*

        Federal anti-discrimination law applies to the whole country; just because an area might be more religious does not mean someone could not win the case (whether they would feel comfortable bringing it is another question, but the law itself doesn’t change.)

          1. CTT*

            Something like this isn’t getting past summary judgement (or probably straight to settlement). Also, this sort of behavior isn’t limited to the Bible Belt. We discussed Oregon in my bioethics class as the prime example of a state that didn’t prosecute parents who refused to get medical treatment for their children due to religious reasons.

    3. Totally Minnie*

      I mean, the employer straight up admits that he fired this guy for refusing to practice a specific set of religious beliefs. He’s not even trying to hide it.

    4. Snark*

      ““Mr. Dahl feels that it’s unfortunate that he (Coleman) is now trying to exploit Mr. Dahl’s honorable intentions for unjustified financial gain,” Hickman said.”

      Oh, Mr. Dahl. That is not how this works. That is not how any of this works.

    5. Andy*

      This employer is trying to reap the benefits of having a ‘make a difference’, and yet for-profit, business while preying on the community he is claiming to be helping.
      He is banking on people like Mr. Coleman just putting up with this illegal and discr behavior because they’re afraid of being unemployable. He knows that as far as employers go, he’s niche. There are very few options for his employees.

    6. LNLN*

      My jaw dropped when I read this in the paper this morning. It seems like as clear cut a case as one could get regarding religious discrimination in employment.

    7. Chaordic One*

      I wonder if the employer will claim that not firing the employee would have infringed on his religious freedom.

    8. Ms Cappuccino*

      It’s totally insane to mix work and religion. Where does the obsession with religion come from in this country?

    9. AJ*

      ” so he said stuck with the weekly, hourlong Bible study sessions for six months”

      Six months of listening to “that”? He’s got more patience than me. I’d be bringing up parts of the “Why can’t I own a Canadian” letter in the sessions, along with all manner of “Non Stamp Collector” contradictions quiz. Or is Mr. Dahl one of those “gives it” out but doesn’t like when it comes under scrutiny and is questioned?

  23. fort hiss*

    Wow, I’ve had a quite a year since I last left a comment on this… to everyone who gave me advice about getting a teaching job after working overseas, THANK YOU! It was your advice that pushed me to make sure I had letters of reference before I left. I have a next step (final step?) interview for a good teaching job with a reputable place in a few days and I’m freaking out a little, but all the advice from people here and Alison is keeping me strong!

    (On a job unrelated note, I also mentioned applying for a green card for my partner. It’s been a wild ride but we’re getting close to the interview part of the process. Thanks for the reassurance that I could do it without a lawyer!)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Good luck with your interview!
      It’s always good to hear from people hitting their goals. Congrats on your progress.

  24. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom

    Something’s in the wind, y’all. Boss has been acting weird for a couple of weeks now. I’m not sure if it’s something in his personal life, or if it’s something going on here. I don’t like not knowing.

    Today is our proofreader’s last day, and I am not ok with it. We didn’t know he was leaving today until yesterday. He’s in his 80’s, so I can understand why, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it.

    If Fergus keeps standing behind me and chewing, loudly and with his mouth open, I might have to see about doing ‘this week in prison.’

    As I’ve mentioned before, Fergus is a racist. The other day, he starts telling me this story about a girl that used to work here, and described her as a big girl. Then he starts telling me about how she went to a rural area (rural, not remote or unreached) and how the people there thought she was a sideshow act because of her race. It did not help his case that I live somewhat nearby where this supposedly happened. His story did not have a point, just that she was a bigger girl, and people had never (apparently) never seen someone of her race before. Fergus isn’t all bad, and he may have been teasing, but he also said something about a woman who was a victim of domestic assault. I’ll spare you the worst of it, but just because the man is considered to be easy going, does not mean that it was the woman’s fault.

    We got a notice for our calendar that there’s a livestock sale going on soon, which isn’t unusual. However, they had a notice that was worded a little weird. We looked it up, and not only will they have the usuals, like cows, goats, chickens, etc., but they’ll also have zebras, monkeys, water buffalos, lemurs, emus, and several other exotic offerings. I’m trying to convince my dad we need to go. (We live on a farm.) But we’ll see.

    I’m wondering what these grandkids did to get listed after the pets in the obituary.

    And finally, do we think the baby we had in the birth announcements named Thor will be best friends/worst enemies with the one from last month named Loki? Cause I think yes.

    3. I Love Thrawn*

      Those poor babies! Many years ago I had a job dealing with official state records; and came across these two names in the same family: John and Not John. Seriously. Someone actually did that to their son. Wow, I bet he needed some serious therapy.

    4. Snarky Librarian*

      You absolutely need to go to the livestock sale! And tell us all about it next week :)

    5. Annie Moose*

      As above! I love these snippets. And I am so curious about the animal sale. Please please go and let us know what it’s like!!

    7. Bostonian*

      “I’m wondering what these grandkids did to get listed after the pets in the obituary.”

      LOL that made my day.

    9. Not a Mere Device*

      Lemurs are startling, not just because I wouldn’t call them livestock, but because they’re rare. (It looks as though it may be legal to own them in some places in the U.S., though international trade is banned except for scientific purposes.) Please do report back.

    10. ONFM*

      I want your job! What does it take? Bachelor’s or master’s in journalism, decent publication history? I’m seriously thinking about switching careers and small town newsroom is the dream! (I’m being honest. Probably overly enthusiastic but sincere.) At the risk of derailing – how did you get your job?

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I have a bachelor’s in English, actually, and absolutely no experience when I started. They were desperate, though, so they hired me. The pay is terrible, and I feel like that’s going to be the case across the board, but some places will pay a little more than others. There’s never a boring day, though, so there’s that.

  25. Environmental Compliance*

    A little frustrated right now with Newer Boss. The person who hired me (and is the only person I report to) left about 2 months into me working this job, and he was replaced with Newer Boss. I like this new guy as a person (he’s not new to the facility, just the position), but he’s started to frustrate me with how he makes decisions.

    He is Head Honcho Manager. All facility decisions go through him. We then have a management team that answers to him. I’m part of that. But for some reason, Boss puts a hell of a lot of weight on Coworker A, in regions where Coworker A does not have 1) decision making authority 2) relevant knowledge or 3) any actual dealings. And then he won’t involve the coworkers that would have 1-3.

    I also had recently set up a meeting with Boss that was a 1:1 (I thought) to get some of my questions answered & give him some updates after his vacation. I had wanted to bring up that there’s a good chance I’ll be out for a week due to major surgery in about a month. Who walks nonchalantly in 2 minutes after I start talking to Boss? Coworker A. Who gives alllllll his opinions that aren’t looking at other relevant details? Coworker A. 10 minutes later, Coworker B shows up and sits down. 10 minutes after that, Coworker C meanders in. I had specifically set up an hour long, 1:1 meeting with Boss, calendar invites & agenda and all. Didn’t get near half my questions answered, just ended up irritated at the situation, since apparently Boss can’t seem to make a decision (which is his responsibility to do!) without it going through Coworker A, and calendar invites mean nothing.

    1. foolofgrace*

      You didn’t ask for advice so you could just be venting, but if it were me I’d consider a wrap-up email summarizing the points of the 1:1 meeting, AND listing the questions that didn’t get asked.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I did, so at least I got the information I needed. Doesn’t help the miffed feeling, but I could proceed with the work I needed to do.

  26. Murphy*

    I’m kind of BEC level with my job this week for different reasons, though also relating to fairness, so I might be off base here, but this angered me.

    I’m in an open office area, in a bank of 8 “cubes” (they’re really more open than that). 4 are empty, including all the ones touching mine. A director sent out an email saying that because we’re hiring more people, they’re removing our break area to build more offices/private-ish cubes. I asked if anyone was going to be moving into all of the empty space around me, and I was told no because a) some supervisors are saying that their people need private spaces, and b) nobody wants to sit there because it’s so open.The director went on to say “You’re somehow able to block out all the noise.” Am I? (I actually am.) Nobody’s ever asked me!

    We had a big physical office restructuring a while back, and I got moved into no man’s land. Honestly, I don’t need the private space and 99% of the time, the noise doesn’t bother me, but I don’t think it’s fair that apparently other people are getting to “nope” out of it, or that their supervisors are fighting to get them private spaces. Is this weird to be mad about?

    1. LQ*

      I mean…have you tried to nope? Chances are good no one ever asked them but they brought it up/complained and that’s how they are noping out of it.

      1. Murphy*

        No, I didn’t think there was an option. And (long story) I didn’t actually have a supervisor when I got assigned this space. My only real complaint about is that it’s so empty.

        1. Murphy*

          Oh, my other complaint is that I’m near the receptionist’s desk, so I get asked all kinds of questions whenever she’s away from her desk or on vacation, because I’m the only visible person.

          1. Alli525*

            Oh, that happened to my CONSTANTLY at my old job, and it didn’t help that I had been at the company for longer than the receptionist had, so I had more institutional knowledge. I just started looking them in the eyes and asking (in a deadpan tone) “Why are you asking me that. I’m terribly sorry but you’ll have to wait until Margot returns, I can’t help you with that.”

      2. Lil Fidget*

        Agree, it actually sounds like your org is pretty flexible about seating arrangements, so maybe you can ask what your options are!

    2. WellRed*

      Do you want to move to an office? Are you bothered by noise? Are you not bothered by it (I honestly can’t tell). If it’s so empty, can you at least me further from the receptionist’s desk so you are less visible?

      1. Murphy*

        I am not bothered by the noise the vast majority of the time. I’m annoyed that I’ve never been asked, I’m annoyed by the assumption that I can block it out when I’ve never been asked, I am annoyed that new hires will get a “better” space, and I think I’ve answered my own question about whether I’m just BEC about this because I’m mad about a different thing.

    3. BRR*

      It’s not weird to be mad about. My office had a big physical restructuring but it only affected some people/teams including me and I’m super mad about it. The powers at be did not consider anything when moving people other than, “people who sit in this area will be moved.” The difference for me is people didn’t really get to “nope” out of it, only that it was basically like the lottery. Some people won the jackpot and some people didn’t win anything.

      1. Murphy*

        I was originally assigned to this desk because I was supposed to report to X who was supposed to sit in the office closest to here. I never actually got assigned to report to X, and X isn’t sitting in the office closest to me, but they put me here anyway. I was under the impression that these other desks around me would be filled eventually, but apparently people keep not wanting to sit here!

        1. Totally Minnie*

          That’s actually a really good opening if you want to address new seating possibilities. You were assigned this specific desk for reasons that never came to pass, so does it make sense for you to keep sitting there? Would the boss be willing to reassess the seating area in general if none of the new hires or their supervisors find the open plan to be workable? I think you’ve got a lot of good points to make if you decide to bring this up.

          And I get that the primary anger is coming from people making assumptions about you and how you work and what you’re comfortable with, rather than asking you, but being proactive in bringing this up may actually carve you an in-road on that front as well. If you let the director see that their assumptions about you were off, they might be more mindful of asking in the future.

      2. zora*

        Yeah, I agree, this is unfair and I would also be super frustrated.

        There should be a transparent process and plan for different levels of office space and taking all needs into account in assigning work spaces. Not a Mad Max level every-one-for-themselves system where only the squeaky wheels get nice office spaces. That’s not a good way to run it at all.

        That’s different from what I would advise if you wanted to move, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what you’re asking in this situation. Just asking for validation that the existing “system” is bullshit and unfair and not good business practice.

        1. Murphy*

          Thanks! It sounds like they are going to be improving the system somewhat. There were some issues with teams saying that an office was “theirs” and if the employee in there moved on, they automatically got to put someone else in there, instead of the head of our larger unit deciding what happened with this space. So they’re putting an end to that, which makes sense.

  27. LQ*

    I’m working on a big document that will be a big deal and I had my boss ask me to have someone else edit it, fine. She brought in another person (also fine-ish). Then they excluded me from the editing process. I could have actually learned something, explained where I was coming from, pushed back. So I’m deeply annoyed. I’m now taking their edits and working them in with mine and preparing it to send to the boss. And the incredibly frustrated part of me hopes that boss will see that I was listening and paying attention and they weren’t. (At least that’s what I think happened in a couple sections.) Mostly I’m deeply cranky at this because it should be my project and other people keep sticking their fingers in it or trying to and I’m left with a lot of finger stumps on my project.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      I don’t understand – isn’t is normal for more than one person to edit important documents? I wrote something yesterday and my teammate is editing it today. She’ll then send it to my boss for final edits. Or is it abnormal to do things this way where you work, which is why you are annoyed?

      1. LQ*

        Oh it’s totally normal here too. It’s just the very specific way they excluded me from the conversation when my boss had wanted me to have and be a part of the conversation that’s annoying me. The first person brought on was supposed to be brought in to talk me through so that I can do this next time, and the second person absconded with my help and meant I have to back my way into everything.

      2. LQ*

        Oh and I’m about …75% being unreasonable. A bit is definitely reasonable, but most of it isn’t.

  28. Peaches*

    How do you stay focused on Fridays when you’re distracted by other things?

    My husband and I leave for vacation tomorrow morning, and I’m having the hardest time doing something productive. Not only do I not have anything time-sensitive to complete, but my mind is 100% on vacation. All I want to do is search the internet for restaurants and fun things to add to our trip itinerary. I’m counting down the hours until I can be free for the next week.

    How do I motivate myself to get work-related things done today? For what it’s worth, I’m a strong, well-liked employee. I’m generally hard working and motivated, but I always seem to have this issue before vacation.

    1. CS*

      I have the whole week off next week, so I feel your pain lol.

      I’ve not been motivated today at all.

    2. Marion Ravenwood*

      Are there any small admin-type tasks you can be doing? That way you’re still productive but not doing anything too taxing. I like to keep Fridays for this kind of thing generally – stuff like updating our media coverage log or tidying our journalist database, for instance. Maybe some light work-related research/related reading too (eg are there any reports or documents – not necessarily produced by your company – that would be useful for upcoming projects?)

    3. Laura*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. If you don’t have anything pressing, and you’re generally motivated, give yourself permission to slack off for the odd day.

      Or do a half-hour working, half-hour slacking, then repeat.

    4. Deloris Van Cartier*

      I feel like I thrive before vacation as I want to make sure I did everything I needed to do so everything can function as best as possible while I’m gone. Do you need to put together any notes or other directions for co-workers or people you work with? It helps that they are always easy things to cross off my list but I do like feeling so successful that I can feel good about not leaving a ton of undone things behind.

    5. The Other Dawn*

      I always leave the mindless stuff for the day before vacation, like filing, reading newsletters I’ve been stockpiling in my inbox, cleaning out my email inbox, stuff like that. If you’re generally motivated and a hard worker, and there’s nothing pressing, don’t worry about slacking off for a day. Enjoy it.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      You should look for a couple of Allison’s posts about being productive over the slow winter holiday week. She talks about things to do that don’t require a lot of brain space. I think that could definitely apply in your situation too!

    7. Almost Violet Miller*

      Before my holidays I like to write a handover for my post-holiday self. When I come back I find it easier to readjust and find what needs my immediate attention. If you can already cross something off that list, even better.

      Also, it’s okay to have a slow day here and there, that doesn’t make you less hard-working.

    8. Admin of Sys*

      Hah, same here! I got all my critical things done yesterday around noon, and I don’t want to start anything major right before I leave, because I expect it’ll be wiped from my brain by the time I return.
      I spent the last of yesterday sorting email and setting autoreplies, but now I’m…well, I’m reading (vaguely) work related blogs.

      That said, is there any filing and such you’ve been putting off? Or documentation, or schedule management, etc? That’s what I usually do right before holidays.

      1. Peaches*

        Same! Everything that I needed to get done is done, and I have all my bases covered for next week’s absence.

        I ended up cleaning/organizing our copy/literature room after writing this. It was a good “everyone has been putting this off, but it needs to be done” sort of thing! Enjoy your vacation. :)

    9. GRA*

      All of these are good suggestions! However, you could also just give in to the fact that you’re probably not going to get anything done and keep hitting “refresh” on the Friday Open Feed. If you’re overall a good employee, one slack day won’t make or break your career.

    12. Peaches*

      Thanks for all the responses! Good to know that it’s okay to have a somewhat slack off day here and there.

      Update: I cleaned our whole literature/copy room to stay busy. It looked like a tornado, so I condensed all the random papers and disinfected the counter tops. It was mindless, but I know others will appreciate it. It wasted a good hour, at least. :)

  29. DaniCalifornia*

    Just bummed and feeling a little like I got hoodwinked/wasted my time. Had a great interview with a company I was really interested in. Would have been a great move career wise. First interview went amazing. Second interview was 2 days later and went even better. The position they were creating (operations) was sorely needed based on everything I heard from them and what we discussed. We discussed a third interview where I could meet everyone and my direct report. That was all last week. I knew I wasn’t guaranteed anything but I was not expecting the turn it took. Got an email this week saying they had hired an admin and are hoping she works out.

    Just a complete 180 in an 8 day period (job posted and I was interviewed within 2 days.) The position they posted for was no where near an admin role. It leaves me wondering if they decided they didn’t want to pay an operations salary, and are hoping they can pay someone half of that and they’ll do all things they wanted. Or if they truly just don’t know what they need and perhaps I dodged a bullet somehow.

      1. Susan*

        Yes. If they believe that the work of an operations person can be done by an admin, boy, do they have a lot to learn. The poor admin person. This is not meant to diminish the role of admin – it’s just a totally different skillset.

    2. $!$!*

      Dodged a bullet. Also, if the company reaches out to you later because their admin couldnt do the operations part, I would think long and hard about working for that company

    3. zora*

      The answer is definitely #2. You dodged a freaking ballistic missile.
      If they are that clueless about what they need, that is going to be a terrible place to work whether as an admin or an operations person. Count your blessings and find somewhere with less clueless management.

  30. Monty's Mom*

    So I’ve never negotiated salary/benefits before, and was in the position to do so this week, and I kind of bungled it. I gave my salary range and was pleased to hear they would meet it, but then got the benefits sheet to review and realized that my cost for health insurance would be so huge that I would basically be taking a pay cut, so I had to decline the offer. I felt so bad about this, but it’s definitely a learning experience, and a reminder to get everything out in the open right away. Back to the search…..

    1. Lil Fidget*

      The US really sets this crappy situation up. I kind of feel like I never know how good the job is until I actually get my first paycheck (so clearly way too late), because everything with withholding/taxes seems so complicated. It’s actually pretty hard in my experience to find out how much you’ll be paying for insurance in advance.

      1. RachelTW*

        I was firm with my current job at the offer stage that I needed a breakdown of employee contributions to insurance because I couldn’t accept an offer without knowing all the benefits and comparing them to what I currently had. I wish we didn’t have to rely on employers to provide insurance, of course, because then we wouldn’t need to go through this dance at all.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Yeah sometimes they make it quite hard to actually figure out (and of course it depends on what plan you enroll in, so it’s not like they can just tell you “it’s X a month” – I have had many tell me something like, “our org covers 80% of insurance!!! Sign now!!” but then you don’t know what the actual premium will be so you don’t know if that’s a good deal or not. It’s very annoying. I don’t think it should be on the average person to pour through these complicated documents and figure it all out while also negotiating around everything else they need (start time, vacation, flexwork etc). No wonder people take a new job and then realize it the compensation wasn’t what they thought.

      2. KnottyFerret*

        I’ve used an assumption of 34% withheld from each paycheck as a single person in Kansas, Washington, and Delaware. It’s not perfect, but it’s been close enough to not be too surprised by my first paycheck being low.
        And if the salary was too low after you saw the insurance offer, say so! Give them a chance to raise the salary (again) before you decline. I always include the qualifier “depending on benefits” when discussing salary requirements because they are such a big factor in the US.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          I’ve experienced some differences based on pay structure, what with things like commision, bonuses, being a contractor or not, being eligible for OT pay or not, etc.

        3. Incantanto*

          Wait, are you serious? I’m in the UK on just above the median wage and everyone says our taxes are high compared tk yours, but after tax, NI, pension and student loans I still keep 76% of my wage.

    2. RachelTW*

      I had a similar situation happen to me, but I managed to negotiate out of it. Early in the process they asked my salary requirements, and I said I was looking for $X. At the offer stage they gave me $Y (which was higher than my initial ask). I asked to review their benefits package and employee contributions for insurance so I could get a sense of my total compensation. Because the benefits were WAY more, I would have been taking a pay cut at $Y, so I called back and said, “After reviewing the benefits package, I feel that $Z would be fair compensation for what I bring to the role.” They came back with the average of $Y and $Z, which was higher than what I was currently earning after benefits were figured in, so I accepted and that’s where I am now.

    3. Construction Safety*

      Most companies have or can easily get a benefits summary/cost one -pager.

      I was pleasantly surprised during my last job change when my HC went from $200/wk to $59/wk.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah I *wish* your comment was true to my experience, but I’d say Victoria Nonprofit (below) is more accurate for me. Then again, I’m also at nonprofits. They often don’t even have HR or just seem quite confused about stuff in general. My current job can’t explain how the vacation time accrues, sigh.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I think you could have gone back to them rather than declining, and explained that once you saw the full package you realized you would need a higher salary to accept. (And that’s a good lesson it sounds like you learned — ask for the full details before you accept.)

      But this isn’t just on you. I’m constantly surprised, even after nearly two decades working, at how difficult it is to get this information out of employers. Every time I’ve asked it’s caused at least a week’s delay of the hiring manager having to figure out how to get this info from HR, then sending me marketing materials from the insurance company that don’t actually list the options and pricing, and so on. How is this basic information not included as a standard part of an offer package?

  31. BenAdminGeek*

    So I read an article about “BS” jobs talking about how this author (below) estimated 40% of jobs are BS and 50% of work even in non-BS jobs were wasted. OK, maybe I’m blind to the realities of the working world, but does 50% of all work is pointless sound at all accurate to you guys? I mean, there’s dumb stuff at every job, but this doesn’t align with what I’ve seen over the past 20+ years in the working world.

    I copied a few paragraphs below. There’s some truth there- yeah, there’s extra forms and stuff that would be best if they didn’t exist. But when the author says “but for white-collar workers, they seem basically right” I wonder who she’s talking to who feels that 50% of the work at their company is useless? It sounds like the flip side of the sales guy who thinks everyone else is pointless because he’s the one making the deals- the idea that keeping an office in pens and the lights turned on is not important.

    https://newrepublic.com/article/150506/universal-basic-income-future-of-pointless-work

    “Graeber attempts to quantify just how much—and after some back-of-the envelope calculations, he wagers that 37 to 40 percent of all office jobs are “[bs].” He further contends that about 50 percent of the work done in a nonpointless workplace is also [bs], since even useful jobs contain elements of nonsense: the pretending to be busy, the arbitrary hours, the not being able to leave before five. “[BS]ization” is even infecting the most non-[bs] professions, with teachers overloaded with administrative duties that didn’t use to exist and doctors forced to deal with paperwork and insurance firms that probably should be abolished.

    There’s no sure way to verify Graeber’s estimates, but for white-collar workers, they seem basically right. Work backward: How much activity on social media takes place during work hours? How many doctor’s appointments, errands, and online purchases occur between nine and five? In other words, how many of us could stand to work half as much as we currently do without any significant consequences? And yet we insist over and over that we are terribly, endlessly busy.”

    1. Disgruntled Marketer*

      I’d agree with it, but I’m in e-commerce marketing which is a load of baloney anyways.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I told myself not to read that book – I already have a terrible attitude about work. I already believe the system is dumb and most of what I spend my time on is not truly necessary. I need to read a book called “just shut up and take your paycheck.”

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      As for the 50% of work being BS, I am in a white collar, government compliance position, which I realize is not representative of the average white collar workplace in private enterprise, but I’d agree. 50% of my job is mandatory documentation that exists to simply prove to some person, who may or may not ever review your work, that you did your work and reviewed everything that you are supposed to review. I’d say I only spend about 50% of my time performing the core duties of my position.

      I’d also say that 50% seems high for private enterprise white collar jobs, but I could easily see a minimum of 25% to 30% in most white collar jobs. It’s a function of everyone wanting to cover their a$$, from an internal, legal, compliance, and regulatory standpoint. As our society continues to be so litigious and regulations of all sorts are increased/added/revised, etc., I don’t see this changing.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        This is my life! White collar, government compliance. I feel like my entire day is spent trying to explain to subcontractors how to fill out our confusing and useless forms. And we just made our insurance requirements way more complicated, sob. I feel your pain.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed plus some.

        Problem X which is foreseeable happens. There is no plan for problem X, so I must call several people. Finally I find someone who is probably near the bottom of the stack and HAS TO help me. At this point I am several hours into problem X. So the person agrees to fix the problem and it is days and days of emailing back and forth. Some times the problem gets fixed some times it does not. I had one problem drag on for three years. I was told several times it was fixed and it wasn’t. After three years of on and off paying attention to the problem I finally took an entire morning and got the problem resolved. The resolution was several clicks on the computer by someone on the other end.

        I am totally in despair about our needless and crushing complexity that we seem to have added to almost everything. We have everything and we have nothing all in the same stroke.

    4. Lil Fidget*

      I think part of the thinking here is that employees have expected slack. Like an admin, there are times when they need to be available to assist, but they may not be called upon. They’re still doing their job because they are available if needed, but it certainly can make you feel unnecessary. I also thought some of his “BS jobs” were administrative support, which … making things run smoothly is actually invaluable IMO. *Sometimes,* increasing admin is self-perpetuating where new compliance departments bring on new regulatory requirements that requires new staff, but that’s not always the case across the board.

    5. Grouchy 2 cents*

      I think that there are a lot of jobs which aren’t contributing anything to society. I also think some of those jobs still have to happen. But, I’d also point out out that most companies whether important to society or not are so crap to employees that they’ve basically crushed any kind of enjoyment/drive/gumption! out of their employees which is why people spend half their day on social media etc. If you’re going to get crap salary, crap benefits and zero advancement no matter what why should you bother trying hard? How many firms cut their staffs to the bone and make them all do work of 3 people so they can give bigger bonuses to themselves and bigger dividends to shareholders? How many times have we seen here and in the media of a C suite getting ridiculous perks/bonuses and salaries while refusing raises for the rank and file because of the economy? Hell just yesterday Cheeto cancelled federal employee raises and COLA because of economic conditions. (Especially egregious considering how often he trumpets his economy is doing so much better than anyone’s)
      In short there are BS jobs for sure but WAY more BS employers.

    6. Admin of Sys*

      I think part of the disconnect is due to the assumption that we should be at our desks for 8 hours a day, or we’re somehow failing our job. There are absolutely weeks where every single employee in our team is needed at full attention the entire day. And there are weeks where we’re all kind of poking around looking for new technologies to adopt or coding tricks or whatever. We wouldn’t be able to do the high-effort weeks if we were random contractors, we wouldn’t have the awareness of the environment or the skills we develop during the quieter times. But it’s not fair to say that half our job is BS because sometimes there are times to read Ask a Manager or check in on facebook.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah, this. But that doesn’t mean the whole job is worthless or that capitalism is a failure (other things can still mean this …)

      2. Manders*

        Yes, this. I’m not doing critical job tasks for exactly 8 hours a day every day, but some of the projects I’ve done during the slow periods ended up being the most successful.

        That said, I think the author does have a point that the butts in seats, 40 hour workweek every week attitude toward a lot of white-collar work does tend to end up with employees creating busy work for themselves and others. I’ve been in one of those “engaged to wait” jobs and I ended up doing a lot of rearranging and filing and organizing that wasn’t strictly necessary because I was bored out of my skull. I think the majority of humans do need to feel like they’re working toward something, even if it seems trivial from the outside.

    7. Teapot Director*

      Intriguing! I work for a non-profit in a senior role and my time is very much filled. If it’s nothing else, it’s stakeholder relations. I do spend a fair amount of time on social relations, but it’s generally very precisely calculated (‘X is very stressed by project Y; project Y is crucial to the org; X needs to let off steam to a peer and get a second opinion on this behaviour; I will have a coffee with X and hear her talk’)

    8. smoke tree*

      One part of my job involves granting permission to quote excerpts from books my employer publishes. In reality we make no money from this and it often feels like a huge waste of time for everyone involved. I do appreciate the importance of compensating people for their creative work, but a lot of the time, these requests are just for a line or two of text. I feel like we’d all be better off if we could just forget about it. (I’m not in the US, where I realize you have a more sensible system.)

    9. ladidah*

      I basically agree with him. In some places where I’ve worked, there’s been sooooo much inefficiency.
      And so many jobs/companies simply bring nothing of value to the world. Not just even the obvious (health supplements that don’t work, selling useless plastic crap that pollutes the world), but even within your garden-variety business, there’s a whole lot of clutter and crap imo.

      1. Alice*

        Yes. High frequency trading? Better targeting of online advertising? I do not see what these industries contribute to the world.
        Oooh, another one in the US – medical billing specialists, health insurance, pharmacy benefit managers, EMR vendors that are not interoperable. It’s bureaucracy that we can’t do without in the current system, but is it adding any value?

    10. HNL123*

      I wouldn’t be surprised if, in my company, it was closer to 70% wasted and pointless work. We have SO MANY meetings where EVERYONE needs to attend, regardless of schedule, and regardless of their involvement in the project. Like….. if I’m only slightly tangentially involved in a project, do I really need to sit through an hour-long meeting, when a five-word email would have been adequate?
      “still making progress on X?”
      “Yes, I estimate it will be done by Friday, per the deadline”
      WHYYYYYYY does this have to be an hour-long meeting?

    11. ONFM*

      I would agree, as a local government worker. I work for an agency that spends the vast majority of its time attempting to mitigate liabilities that aren’t realistic, especially given the technological advancements of the last decade or so, expending an inordinate amount of energy responding to complaints about issues that are not actually issues, and managing documentation. I think that I could easily free up half my day if my directors embraced technology. “Because we’ve always done it this way” must ring out in the hallways daily.

      Adding on to another commenter – I could do at least 75% of my job from home. The other 25% is meetings which accomplish very little. But working remotely looks bad to the public…

    12. Hamburke*

      I don’t know – I do fill out a lot of forms and have a lot of places where I enter the same information in a couple places (mostly ends up flagging me that there’s an issue somewhere – the heart of bookkeeping) but I’ve seen what happens when there aren’t checks and balances in place in similar situations – it’s not pretty. Yes, some of what I do is CYA and phone calls the should have been emails (many of which were and weren’t read) but definitely not 50%…

  32. Working late?*

    I’m a new grad about three months into my first ever exempt job (I worked multiple part-time jobs throughout college, but was always hourly with a strict cap on the number of hours.) I’m having some trouble navigating what an appropriate amount of “working late” is. Everyone in my office works a pretty strict 8:30 – 5 PM; the occasional person works late if they have something to finish up but for the most part people are out of the office completely by 5:05 or 5:10 PM. I know that’s unusual! However, I’m finding that I have a hard time assessing how much is a reasonable amount of work after hours to be doing. I know that part of doing exempt work is managing your own time, but how much work after hours is the point when I mention to my manager that I feel a little overloaded? Is staying til 6:30 or 7 PM three nights a week normal? 5 nights a week? Working on weekends occasionally? Every weekend? Fwiw, we’re not in an industry where being “on-call” is a part of the standard culture or necessary to make things run smoothly. I’m just having trouble assessing where the line is between “this is just part of working an exempt job” and “this is out of the norm for your office and you should speak up.” Any thoughts on navigating this would be much appreciated!

    1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      If nobody else is staying beyond 5:10 3+ times a week, then I would think that this is not normal and you might either be overloaded or could benefit from re-evaluating your time management. I’m a year into an exempt job after graduating college and it took months for me to figure out that not everything on my list had to be done on the day it was given to me. One thing that helped greatly was specifically asking people when the deadline was on each task and prioritizing from there. I know sometimes people work on the weekends or late in my office but normally it’s to make up for lost time somewhere else during the week because of an unexpected delay. Good luck!!

      1. Working late?*

        Thanks so much for your thoughts! To be clear: I’m definitely not working super late every night of the week, but I’ve been finding myself as the last one in the office pretty consistently (which, admittedly, is easy to do if everyone leaves right at 5!) I’ll make sure to think about how I’m structuring my time and see if I can do anything better there. Thanks again!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Keep an eye, perhaps they are gathering their things at 4:45. If you can see their computers try to notice them shutting down and the time. It could be that you are working right up to 5 and they are getting ready to leave at 4:45.

          You are newer at the job? I can tell you from my own experience some semi repetitive tasks used to take me two hours. I can now do them in 15 minutes. But I am back in this spot again because I have another new task, it takes me 2 hours to sort through all the hoops. Once I get used to it I think it will take about 20 minutes to do.

          What I did was try to estimate which task comes up the most often. I got lucky and made a good guess. So I concentrated on learning to do that task faster. This involved learning a few key board short cuts where there was too much time consuming clicking going on and it involved getting familiar with that set of paperwork. I substantially reduced the time it took, but not totally. It was enough and I could add more shortcuts later on. I moved to the next most frequently occurring task. This one took a bit longer to get a handle on. Once I had that streamlined I moved to the next most frequently occurring task.

          I did not worry about the one-offs or unique things that came up. Stuff like this always happens and the best I can do there is tuck away the learning experience for use later.

          Last. I am prone to thinking I should do w, x, y and z for Task ABC. The task actually calls for x and z and I have added steps for whatever reason- overthinking or perhaps not thinking it through. Take a look at how you have set yourself up to work, are you adding steps thinking that the steps are helpful and the steps really are not needed?

      2. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

        I’ll also add that it’s totally possible that your coworkers/superiors don’t know that you have to stay late so frequently, especially if they’re not there late too. Another adjustment I am still kind of going through is realizing that my direct managers don’t keep tabs on my workload because they have to worry about their own. If I need more work or have too much, nothing is going to change unless I tell them and usually they’re willing to help me out one way or another.

      3. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah, you have to ask yourself critically: can I really not get everything done in eight hours? Is there a structural reason, like everybody gets me everything at the end of the day (so actually *shifting* your hours may make sense) – or am I being less efficient than other workers? I waste a lot of time online, so if I end up staying late to finish something, I don’t usually blame my workload. If you are sure it’s your workload that’s when you take it to your boss, but be aware that they may be thinking, “our past admin got the same workload done and didn’t seem to stay late.”

    2. Cousin Itt*

      I would look to your co-workers. If it’s rare for others to stay late you shouldn’t be either. Almost no one works late in my office, I’ve stayed late maybe twice and it was only 30 minutes or so of extra time.

    3. Washi*

      I think you can just raise it as a question, especially since you’re only 3 months in. “I find that I’m having to stay until around 6:30 2-3 times per week to finish my work. I’ve tried prioritizing X and Y (insert a brief explanation of attempts) but I’m still finding that I’m staying late – is your sense that I’m performing as you would expect in this role?” and then you can add/follow up with things like “Do you think I will probably get faster with time and experience? Do you have any feedback for me on how I manage my time or perform tasks?”

      A lot of jobs do a 90-day performance review for this reason – now that you’ve gotten your feet under you, it can be a good time to align about longer term expectations and goals.

    4. AliceW*

      Workloads can be very different so some people may routinely work 50-70+ hour weeks and others just the standard 8:30 -5pm. If there are others doing work similar to you I would take my cue from them, but also, as a new employee, I would work a little bit harder than my peers for a while just to establish that I have a strong work ethic and can meet all deadlines, take on extra projects and additional training etc, unless you don’t actually have enough work to do to justify those hours. I certainly wouldn’t put in that kind of extra time just for appearence’s sake.

  33. Amber Rose*

    Husband works for the government. His grand-boss wants him to apply for a year long position at another department, since it would suit his skills really well and also give him some broader experience. GB is pretty sure that they can work into the contract that at the end of the year, he just goes back to his old job.

    Pros:
    – Money. At least a 10% increase, if not more.
    – It’s a step up in rank (hence the pay).
    – Broader experience.
    – No risk in terms of job security, since his old job would be waiting for him (not sure how that works, but I mean, if it doesn’t he can always turn down the position.)

    Cons:
    – It’s much farther away. Right now we carpool, that would no longer be possible. He’s looking at an hour and a half of public transport each way. Parking is hideously expensive, so driving is probably not an option.
    – His time off would probably be suspended, for obvious reasons.
    – We’re not sure what would happen with his benefits.
    – Husband’s direct boss is kind of wary of the whole thing and doesn’t necessarily agree with GB that it’s a good idea.

    What kinds of things should we consider when making this decision? Obviously it’s husband’s call in the end, but I am his wife so I get to play advisor/devil’s advocate. I’m just not sure.

    1. Anon From Here*

      1) What will be the impact on your taxes?

      2) How well can either/both of you tolerate things you don’t like for a year?

      3) Is your husband looking forward to catching up on his leisure reading during those commute hours?

      1. Amber Rose*

        1) Probably none. Canadian taxes mostly deal with themselves.

        2) Eh? He worked two jobs for a little less than a year and it was a strain. But at least this way he’d still get his weekends.

        3) Haha, not sure. Depends how many transfers would be involved. It’s hard to say.

        1. Anon From Here*

          1) I meant, would there be an increase in pay such that it bumps you into a higher tax bracket? Then that 10% pay increase could end up being less than you expected.

          2) Yeah, some people are better than others at keeping their eye on the prize when a situation goes a little sour. My partner and I tend to be complete opposites in this regard. :)

          1. Amber Rose*

            Tax brackets are so needlessly complicated, but my limited understanding is that being bumped into another bracket doesn’t have much of an impact, since only the amount that’s over is taxed. I don’t think we’re that close to the limit either.

    2. CatCat*

      “He’s looking at an hour and a half of public transport each way.”

      Oh, that would make me nope hard. How much of a time difference is from the current commute? Three hours each day translates to around 90-100 eight hour days per year… that’s a lot of life to trade away.

      1. CatCat*

        I mean to add on that I find when I think about things not abstractly as hours or minutes or days, but as trading away my life, that adds a lot of clarity for me.

      2. Amber Rose*

        Yeah, I think that’s where he’s getting hung up the most. He already an hour and a half commute home, but since I drive him in the morning it’s only half an hour to get there. He’d have to get up/leave much earlier.

    3. LQ*

      If it’s in the same government overall (like within the state system, or within the same county system) the time off, benefits, etc may all transfer over really smoothly.
      If it’s a work out of class kind of role I’d say take it, try it, you go back to the old role if not.
      Especially if grandboss is thinking long term, I need Husband to have a wide range of skills to continue to promote him etc. If grandboss is generally making good decisions I’d definitely go for it. And read the handbook, this really sounds like what we’d call working out of class, which is a very nice stepping stone to promotion and a good way to test another job. But usually you get to keep all the benefits and all the rest.

      1. Amber Rose*

        The complication is that he goes from what is technically a management position, so not union, back into a union position. So we’re not sure if that will impact his benefits and stuff.

        1. LQ*

          If he’s union he should definitely be able to talk with either someone in HR who deals with this all the time and will know or someone in the union who would be able to address it, even as a not-specific to this job question. Definitely have him talk to someone who would be able to give good information. And I’d suggest if he knows anyone who has done it see if he can ask them about anything unexpected they had happen.

    4. Shiara*

      “He’s looking at an hour and a half of public transport each way.”
      It may be worth parsing this a little more. Is this get on the metro and sit there for an hour and a half and read (or even get started on some work)? Or are there a lot of transfers? Are there a lot of transfers from metro to bus to bus to walk five minutes to another bus?

      I found I was able to tolerate an hour-long metro point to point commute much better than a 45 minute commute across multiple buses.

    5. BRR*

      I’m not sure how long his commute is now but I have at minimum an hour and a half commute via public transit with one transfer and it’s rough. When I started it, I was tired all the time (still am but I only have to do it two days a week now). I would sleep all weekend and was extremely grumpy due to basically having no time on weekday evenings.

      Even though I can read/watch shows/listen to stuff, that 3+ hours is not relaxation time. While public transit has its advantages, I would love sometimes to have a buffer (aka car) between me and other people.

    6. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I am surprised that a 10% pretax increase i salary wouldn’t offset even very expensive parking. Have you actually done th math? Plus wear and tear on the car, tolls, gas. But unless his current salary is very low seems like it would be covered.

      Could still be a long commute depending on traffic where you live…

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Just my opinion of course but if his boss is otherwise a good boss, then I would probably listen to his immediate boss. When the immediate boss says this is not a good move, they probably see something I don’t. For me, the immediate boss’ thumbs down would give the cons additional weight. I would probably not take the job. This only works if the immediate boss is a good boss whose advice has not failed your hubby yet.

  34. CS*

    I’m in the middle of working a 6 weeks notice period. I have been searching for a new job since the beginning of the year and I’ve finally got something. I start on the 1st October 2018.

    It will be a bittersweet feeling on my last day. I feel like i’ve been through hell and back.

  35. KatieHR*

    I just wanted to say thank you to the people who read and post on here. I was in the final stages of an interview for a job. I had met with the recruiter and HR manager. Everything seemed to be going really well. Then I met with the VP and it all derailed very quickly. After reading several posts about what to look out for when it comes to toxic jobs, I knew all the signs. The job the VP was describing was very different then what I was told, the hours were different, and it was obvious the VP wanted this candidate to be a perfect mold of the person who previously held the job. After that interview I decided to withdraw my application and feel very fortunate. I think I would’ve been going into a very unpleasant situation. So thank you!!

  36. anon for this*

    Does anyone have any advice about transitioning off of disability? I could (possibly) use some.

    I’m currently on SSI. My case is up for a review &, while my condition hasn’t improved, I worry that it won’t actually matter. I’m not any more employable* than I was a few years ago & SSI was pretty much my last option/hope– and it took years, lawyers, and two bouts of homelessness to get there. (*That’s how I found AAM a few years ago. I wanted to see what my chances looked like. Yeah, by AAM standards, I’m SOL.)

    I’m basically just looking for a ray of hope, because at this point I think my life may depend on it.

    1. Miss H*

      Hopefully someone else will have better advice. I don’t know how much use this will be.

      I have a forum-friend who is going through something somewhat similar. She isn’t sure how long disability will last, so she has been slowly getting into the landlord business. She builds up downpayment + buffer for a property, buys and fixes it, and rents it. If all goes well, she can start saving for another property. She has currently said she has them generating enough that she could support herself and kids on a barebones budget if disability were cut off tomorrow.

      However, there is a big learning curve for evaluating a property’s numbers, though, so this takes a lot of learning BEFORE a property is chosen. She also had been saving heavily for years before she got sick. And not all areas are good for being a landlord.

    2. Anon for this also*

      I feel you. I’m on SSDI and have had one review so far and am expecting another before or around when I turn 50. I also didn’t get approved until I got a lawyer and had an appeal before a judge. I think the most important thing is documentation that shows your condition hasn’t changed. During my review I had stacks of medical records from doctor visits within the last year showing I was still receiving treatment, still taking same meds and doctors verified no improvement. Basically bury them in documentation. I’m worried for my next review because while nothing has changed, I’m seeing the doctor less often since there’s not much else they can do.

      Also get receipts for any paperwork you provide even if you’re walking into the Social Security office and giving it to them directly. They lost some of my paperwork and said I hadn’t sent it in but I had the registered mail rcpt.

    3. also anonanonanon*

      I was on SSDI for 5 years and transitioned myself off (was not deemed able to work by the government, so not forced off). I was able to take that time to improve my health, finish a degree, and get an internship which turned into a full time job. This was back in the 1990s, and I know that the government disability standards and processes have become stricter.

      You are in a tough spot. I remember that sense of helplessness and having to jump through hoops that are difficult for someone without a disability. I’m so sorry you are going through this.

      Interestingly, I have a neighbor who is in somewhat the same situation right now. She was an admin, has TBI and physical issues from a car accident, and the powers that be are implying she can go back to work. My off the wall suggestion to her was that she find a non-profit to do some very part time volunteer work for. And when she cannot consistently function in that position, she can use it as proof that going back to work full time is not an option. A horrible way to prove you cannot work (for both you and the non-profit), but maybe it would work? Do you have the type of skill set where this might be possible to do?

      The other thing to remember is that you are older now, have been off the job market longer, skill set not up to date. I think they have to take that into consideration. If you have any other issues besides the one they qualified you for, be very proactive in pointing that out to them. For example, I did technical work and qualified because of a mental issue. They tried to say that I could take a job that did not involve using my mind, like being a grocery checker or fast food worker. I had to point out to them that my partially fused ankle, in a brace, prevented me from being on my feet for any length of time. They sent me to an orthopedist to verify; that knocked me out of their solution.

      This is not the time to gloss over what you deal with on a daily basis that prevents you from being successful at work.

      Have you checked out vocational rehabilitation in your state? They might be helpful.

  37. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

    Well, it’s been about a month. Slacker coworker is still slacking. If he works 4 of 8 hours a day, that would be pushing it. Most of his time is spent staring at his phone. I am beyond unhappy at this point. I’m very busy, need help, and it’s not even our busy season! Still, manager is all like “we need to give him a chance to right the ship” and “he has a lot of years and knowledge, we’d hate to lose him”.

    Well, you know what? You come here and sit with him. Between all the loud text tones, auto play videos, and him constantly complaining when he has to do the least bit of work, I’ve about had it.

    This really has changed my view of the company I work for. I get when people have problems they should get some assistance, but at what point does it just become a simple performance issue? He’s clearly unhappy here, but won’t quit, and management isn’t interested in letting him go and finding someone else for the role. I plan to move out of state in a year or so, and was considering asking to work remotely, or at a branch office, but I’ve changed my mind.

    1. mkt*

      Ugh. No real advice, but I feel you.

      Slacker slacks because he can, and still get paid! It’s such a morale hit for everyone else and I wish management would notice that impact is not just on the company bottom line but for other productive employees like you.

    2. WellRed*

      What do they say when you complain about the impact on you from all the noise? What doess he say? How often do you fantasize about leaning over, grabbbing the phone out of his hands and flinging it?

      1. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

        Quite frankly, I’m over it. What I’m really worried about is the “NO ONE CAN HAVE PHONES OUT ON THEIR DESKS” edict that I fear is about to happen, so I’ve not brought up the phone thing. I know that’s how it will be handled. It won’t be directed to just him, we’ll all be subjected to it, and while I don’t use my phone much at work, I have an elderly mother who calls from time to time, as well as family thousands of miles away who sometimes send a quick text during the day. So I’m operating under the just don’t say anything so we all don’t get punished umbrella.

        And yes, I fantasize about pounding his phone into the ground with a large mallet.

        1. valentine*

          If you think your coworker would follow a no-phones rule, that seems tolerable. You can talk to your mom and see the hello texts on your breaks. In case you could get peace even for a shift, suggest your boss trade offices with you to lead by example or have the guy shadow him, in hopes he’ll buckle down and aspire to management (or the latter could backfire, with your boss liking/feeling for the guy so much, he doubles down on keeping him). Are you afraid they’ll fire you if you set a workload boundary? Does it seem impossible to decide to do x amount only and let TPTB worry, try remoting now, or switch jobs?

          1. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

            I’m taking a few days off. When I get back, I’m going to request a meeting with my manager and ask exactly what is the plan here, and explain that this is impacting my morale when I’m working frantically while he’s posting on Facebook. Gonna be blunt about it. I’m not afraid of being fired, at least I’m actually doing my job and not goofing off! We aren’t allowed to work remotely, and I don’t plan on being in my state for very much longer, maybe a year or so, so changing jobs right now isn’t the best plan for me.

            It is so frustrating!

            1. Buu*

              I’d focus around the noise and interruptions over the Facebook, and the fact you’re overworked. If they won’t send Slacker to help, then they should come up with another solution. Focus on the impact it’s having on your productivity.

  38. Nervous Accountant*

    I’ve never been so happy it’s Friday. It’s been a storm of a week.

    Yesterday my boss did a major micro-managey and nitpicky AF thing and it just reinforced my belief that I can’t do a damn thing right.

    Ya know how I’m always paranoid about how people here think I’m stupid, and bad at my job, but I’m really not?

    Yeah, so…self fulfilling prophecy or something like that at play here. Basically, I let my anxiety about performing badly get to me, and…I cracked like an egg.

    My direct mgr was out all week, so I was trusted to hold down the fort, and while at the time I thought I did OK, turns out I did horribly.

    We met Monday morning and he went through the list of things that boss had pointed out to him. I’m ashamed to admit that I cried. Like totally ugly cried. He wasn’t angry or upset, in fact he was really nice and said that he was really surprised @ the feedback b/c I don’t do any of that stuff when he’s there. He knows I have a good work ethic and I’m not the “when the cats away mice will play” type of person. We just couldn’t figure out why I do well when he’s here, and crack when he’s not.

    I told him that a portion of my anxiety stemmed from feeling that a few certain people have no respect for me….I gave him concrete examples and while he was sympathetic he said that the best thing would be for the 3 of us to sit and talk together.

    I feel I should mention–he knows exactly what I’ve been going through this year, with my dad, travelling, my mom etc. and he’s been really great and supportive every step of the way. Work wise, he’s always given me helpful feedback. So I feel REALLY bad that I let him down.

    The list of complaints was valid and I owned up to everything except for one which I felt was unreasonable. Basically there were lots of small things that just added up. One by one none of these things would have even mattered much, but altogether they showed that I wasn’t ready to be a leader. He said he hasn’t given up on me yet, and really really really really wanted to promote me and not someone else but he has a tougher time fighting for me now.

    Tbh, I feel more terrible for letting him down (he really is a great mgr and I love working under him) than anything else. Not that I was trying to blame anyone or anything. In the end it was up to me to do well. And I didn’t. I let my own head get the best of me and that resulted in this mess.

    Here’s hoping for a better week….again.

    1. Jean (just Jean)*

      Ouch. Sympathies. Please don’t be too hard on yourself because you’re only human and you’re having a lousy year. It sounds to me that you’ve looked over the past week and identified a few areas in which you could regain the skills you temporarily set aside due to anxiety. The skills are still there, they just got pushed out of the way by some passing anxiety. You just have to get back on the horse and keep riding. Take it slowly and keep telling yourself that you’re one of many, many, many people who do their work and do it well despite their anxiety. Also remind yourself that you’re still coming to work, day in and day out, despite your losses and off-the-job challenges. There’s a dignity in keeping going. You have the right to be proud of yourself even if you also think you could improve in X, Y, or Z.

      I hope your company is closed on Monday so you can enjoy a longer weekend. (Maybe invent a few annoying-to-anyone-but-you errands so you can get out of the house without your mom for a few hours?)
      Internet hugs if you want them. Good vibes to you. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  39. Upstream Arch*

    If you were a small business owner, how would you structure a child care subsidy (something along the lines of $500-$1000/month until pre-K)? Would you make it a benefit only for child care expenses, knowing that it is not a benefit that all employees would be able to use and that it could seem “unfair” to those without kids or without little kids? Would you expand it to include, say, elder care or other stuff to make it more inclusive, or would you leave it just at child care, and trust that people without kids in that age bracket would understand?

    1. DaniCalifornia*

      Are you able to give it to every employee? If so could you call it a family subsidy and then each employee could use it as they see fit? Childcare, after school care, elder care, pet boarding for those who travel. I would try to be more inclusive. If you only wanted it to be for child care before pre-K is there something you could offer other employees without kids/little kids to balance it out and not seem unfair. As a person who currently doesn’t have kids it would come off as a bit unfair but I recognize sometimes that happens.

      1. Evil HR Person*

        +1
        And, also, those of us who don’t have children in day care (who are older and go to school) would still need help with, say, summer day camp.

        I think what you’re doing is wonderful, by the way, and hoping to be inclusive shows how much you truly appreciate your employees.

      2. Natalie*

        Only certain dependents are covered for IRS purposes. If you allow people to use it however they want, it can’t be a tax free benefit so you might as well just raise everyone’s wages by $X.

    2. Ciara Amberlie*

      I think if you can include elder care, that would be really kind!

      It’s not necessary per se, because there are lots of benefits which target some groups more than others. But elder care is incredibly demanding, and often harder get support with than childcare. There are some organisations that provide respite care for carers, and it is possible to hire in-home help, but it’s much harder to find something like that than it is to hire a babysitter for your child or put them in a nursery for a day a week.

    3. CAA*

      Assuming you are in the U.S, I would do it as an employer contribution to a Dependent Care Flexible Spending Account. The limits might be lower than what you want to do, but these accounts can be used for much more than just early childhood care, so it seems less exclusionary.

    4. Bea*

      A flex account would be best as stared above.

      Not every benefit will be used by every person. The few who will be bitter want more from you than you’ll ever be able to afford.

      Be generous with PTO and flex time for everyone to deal with family things. Then establish a flex plan for dependent care. It’s like having a plan got paid medical leave or even sick pay. People here and there whine that they’ll never need it so they can’t cash in. That’s not your issue as long as you’re fair and doing what you can afford to.

    5. BRR*

      I don’t have kids and don’t plan on having them and I get a little irked at benefits like this.I know there are a lot of discussions around this and some people would say that benefits aren’t going to be used equally by everyone like offering awesome health insurance benefits some employees more than others, but it comes off to me like my employer would be willing to give a $6,000-$12,000 annual bonus to some employees and not others. I know kids are expensive and it’s great to help working parents, so I understand this type of benefit but am frustrated by it.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes, I would appreciate that this is a good thing to do, but make sure it doesn’t feel like a bonus for procreation, while others are looking for part time additional jobs to pay student loans or what have you.

    6. Llama Wrangler*

      As a non-child-having person, I agree with the recommendations for a dependent care FSA. My last workplace also contracted with a care provider (Bright Horizons) who could do emergency care for any family member at a deeply subsidized rate. But anything outside of that I think would feel unfair, and given the restrictions on what could be tax deductible, I agree with the suggestion of maybe just raising pay (or contributing more to health insurance or retirement).

    7. LCL*

      Eldercare would be nice, if you could afford it. If you can’t and could only afford the childcare subsidy, I would be totally OK with it and think you are doing a good thing. I don’t have children. I believe childcare to be a burden that all society should share, because we all benefit.

      1. Not Alison*

        I don’t have children – which means that in my old age, I won’t have any children to help me out. Which means that I will need more money to pay someone to do the services that I did for free for my parents.

        So, while it is nice for parents to have extra money now, I would prefer to have an equal benefit that I can sock away in my retirement fund because I will need the extra money in my retirement.

        1. Kerr*

          Agreed. I so appreciate the desire to help parents (kids are expensive!), but as a childfree single person, I have added costs that aren’t immediately apparent.

          I would expand the benefit as much as possible, within reason. Maybe you could offer an FSA contribution amount, and the employees could choose whether it goes to a regular FSA or a dependent care FSA? Or allow it to be used for elder care, pet-sitting, etc.

    8. Gumby*

      Could you have a set number of “benefits dollars” for each employee and let them decide how to use it? Child-free people could direct more of it towards their health insurance, a higher 401k match, or commuter benefits; those with families could use it for child care. That seems fair. Also that way if someone is covered by a spouse’s health insurance, they could spend their “benefit dollars” on something they could use.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Why not give them all raises and let them decide how best to use it.

      Honestly I hate all these little pots of money for this and that. A well known employer has a benefits package where you can use “dollars” to chose what you would like. At first glance it sounds great. But once you read through you realize you don’t have enough “dollars” to pay for anything as most of the things are outrageously priced. So you have let’s say “600 dollars”, elder care insurance is $2000 per month until it cuts off at age 90 something. Your out of pocket is $1400 per month, making less than 50k per year you decide it’s not doable. So you go through all these other benefits and find similar information where the benefit is basically not accessible.

      Then you realize your whole benefits package is a farce.

      Just give them raises. Tell them you are concerned about their families/pets/homes and this is the reason for the raise.

    10. Alice*

      Honestly curious: when you say “trust that people without kids in that age bracket would understand,” what do you hope they will understand?

  40. mkt*

    So, I have a crush on this dude from work. He doesn’t work in my department, but we’re on the same floor in the building, I see him occasionally, and we sit on a committee where we work together few times a month. Somebody mentioned in passing that he looks a bit like my husband, so I guess he is my “type”. I become flustered around him, lost my train of thought when speaking, etc and it’s embarrassing. Anyway, no intention of pursing a relationship or anything, but I’m having difficulty trying to compartmentalize this feeling and need help. Any tips on how I can get over this?

    1. Four lights*

      Time. I find that trying to supress feelings make them pop up more, and seem like a bigger deal. I try to acknowlede it and move on, like, “wow, I’m getting a little flustered. He is pretty cute. Moving on now…”

      2. Washi*

        Totally agree. I actually tend to enjoy the little zing that crushes add to my life, and they tend to fade by themselves within weeks, especially since I tell my husband about them so we can giggle about it together.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Carolyn Hax has this right – she says to realize this guy is just an idealized version of a person and you don’t really “know” him or his annoying habits. And if you have no intention of pursuing anything, is there really anything wrong with finding someone attractive? Harmless crushes are just that! Harmless. If you really want to cure yourself, just pretend he has skidmarks on his underpants every time you see him.

      1. mkt*

        Oh my goodness, your last sentence is golden.
        It’s now etched in my brain, and I don’t know whether to thank or curse you for it. :)

      3. Jean (just Jean)*

        Or he supports the wrong sports team, rescues the wrong breed of animal, votes 180 degrees opposite you, is a carnivore if you’re vegetarian or vice versa, is a neat freak? never washes dishes? disdains murder mysteries, only watches foreign films with subtitles?, derides your taste in music? or (insert your own affiliation dealbreaker(s)).

      4. ONFM*

        Yes! I do this for people I am intimidated by… just imagine them doing something normal, human, and embarrassing/ awkward… clears those feelings right up! Of course, depending on the strength of your imagination, it might be hard to make eye contact for a few days … :)

    3. soanonforthisonetoday*

      I was in the same situation as you with one of our volunteers who was about eight years younger than me (I’m female, he’s male). There was some mutual flirting going on (nothing I’d ever, ever act on), but I did have a bit of a crush. I’ll tell you what, I became stone-cold sober if you will, and immediately stopped my behavior when I realized that if I could act this way and have these thoughts, what’s to stop my husband from doing the same thing and how would that make me feel? Definitely not anything to risk my marriage over, that’s for sure.

    4. Iris Eyes*

      If you can figure out a solution for the in person awkwardness I’m all ears. For any thought obsession I have found some success with equating thinking about him with a reminder to think about something else you want/need to think about. Maybe its remembering to look off into the distance to protect your eye health or to drink water or pray or whatever. Quickly redirecting thoughts instead of dwelling on them decreases the “recovery” time.

      1. Jean (just Jean)*

        Seriously, this is a great idea. Much better than trying to remind oneself that the cute colleague is also a member of the Society to Rescue Human-Eating Alligators or votes only for the Unhelpful Party candidates. (Hopefully, these examples are generic enough to make people laugh no matter where they are IRL on the animal rescue or political spectrums!)

    5. Bea*

      It’s normal to be attracted to someone but I’m confused why your senses don’t say “hey he’s cute. I’m happily married tho so moving on…”

      I can certainly think someone is good looking but being in a committed relationship, I’m never flustered or “crushing” on someone. It’s chemicals. Just keep saying “yep, he looks like my husband.” and rinse and repeat “my husband”.

      1. jolene*

        Fantasise shagging him and enjoy it thoroughly. Eventually you will realise that this fantasy has been replaced by another one. They always burn out. Don’t fight it, indulge it and that will stop you doing anything beyond keeping it in your head where it belongs.

  41. Isabel Kunkle*

    I’m sure this has come up before, but I can’t find it in archives, so here goes:

    How/when do you ask about WFH stuff in interviews?

    I’m currently looking, and at the point in my life/career where having at least one day per week remote is a dealbreaker for me: if that’s not on the table, I’d rather temp indefinitely where I look for a job where I can do so, and I’m fortunate enough that I can do so. My thought is to wait until they ask about salary, and then add “…and I’m looking for a role with one or two days of remote work per week.”

    Thoughts? As a rule, I’ve only been applying to companies with Glassdoor profiles that say WFH is possible.

    1. CAA*

      As an interviewer, I would like to know about this requirement in the first interview so we don’t waste time if it’s just not a possibility for this role, or so that I can make it clear that we don’t do WFH during the first three months or until your government security clearance has come through, or whatever. So when I ask if you have any questions about the position or the company, that would be a good time to bring this up. However, I know that some other interviewers are turned off by candidates who ask about things like salary and working conditions. I don’t think you can know in advance whether the person you’re talking to is going to feel that way, so maybe ask a couple more traditional questions first and make this the last one and just accept that you might lose out on some jobs because people are weird about this.

      1. Isabel Kunkle*

        Oh, good point! I forgot to add: I don’t actually need it right away, but like six months in. So same, but add “…though I wouldn’t need that to start until I’ve been there six months or so”?

        Thank you!

  42. nep*

    I’m a Revver and digging it.
    Happy to have read about Rev here on AAM last week. Thanks. (Crazy that I wasn’t aware earlier…but, no looking back.)
    Granted the money is not great, but I can see how that can improve as I get more efficient at transcribing. The set-up is ideal for me and my current situation. I actually really love doing it (and I’ve learned a lot already, not only about the process but in the content). I feel as if I’m getting paid for a hobby. And hey–I’m going to have some gas and food money on Monday that I wouldn’t have had otherwise.
    The job search continues. All the best, job-seekers.

    1. AnitaJ*

      I’ve been reading a lot about it–would you be willing to give me the 2-minute rundown on how it works for you? Really thinking I want to get into it.

      1. nep*

        Well they know what they’re doing as far as running a super user-friendly and efficient operation (from our end, anyway–can’t speak of client side).
        Given that you’ve got constant access to an endless list of jobs of various lengths and deadlines, you can plan your time well and select what works. Generally it’s a big block of time to work with, so you can work your day around the transcribing.
        There’s a handy style guide and a lot of tutorials available. The forum is fantastic too–very helpful.
        What I love is that you preview the video or audio (any portion of it) before deciding to claim it. So you know the subject matter, the number of speakers, the audio quality, any accents involved.
        As I said the money is not terrific. I really do have to be sure I’m weighing this against other ways I spend my time (other projects I’m working on, job search…) It can be addicting to grab projects, but always keep in mind the cost-benefit (cost being your time). As I mentioned in earlier post, I can see how this can become a little more lucrative as I get more efficient at transcribing.
        Probably longer than you wanted…Not sure whether I hit on your question. Happy to answer any other Qs.

          1. nep*

            Below minimum, let’s put it that way.
            It really depends on a lot of things–primarily how fast you can transcribe and type.
            (I’m not a super fast typist (yet). But in a few days I’ve been able to make is so I’ll have a decent little chunk of change early next week.) As I said, it’s really about looking at cost/benefit…how else you would be spending the time…if you’ve got some time to spare, make a few bucks while learning or improving some skills, and learning from pretty interesting content. And such varied content.

              1. nep*

                I recall the grammar/punctuation test…My short-term memory has been shot in recent days. Remind me of the other elements of the initial test to see if one is brought on board? It was a couple of quick things to transcribe within a time limit? (Man, I did it only Tuesday but I already forget.)

          2. Alianora*

            I’ve been working at Rev on and off since spring 2017. (More when I’m a student or job searching, less when I have full-time employment).

            When I was at my very fastest and at the Revver+ level (so I could pick the easiest jobs and caption at 120% speed) I was probably making $12-15/hour captioning. Beginner pay can vary a lot. My estimate would be maybe $2-4/hour.

            Either way, not a lot of money. But it was enough to keep me afloat while I didn’t have another way of making money. Better than working a minimum wage fast food job.

            If you want to stay a Revver long-term, I would recommend not even thinking about how much you’re making per hour in the beginning, and just focusing on getting the best metrics possible. Do as many short jobs as you can (more grades = better metrics). Plenty of people do a couple of long jobs, get hit with some bad grades, and have their accounts permanently deactivated.

            1. nep*

              Great insights and points. Thanks for this.
              This is what I’m picking up in the forum as well. (The forum is a great source of insights and tips.)
              I should note that I simply enjoy the process of transcribing/typing and I love proofreading. Given that I want remote work anyway, while I’m job searching this is ideal.

    3. Roja*

      As someone who worked at Rev for two years before I finally had to leave, I can only say be wary. The work is fun, and I do miss it as well as the awesome fellow captioned there, but the company doesn’t always act professionally towards its contractors. I couldn’t take the pay cuts and runarounds from the administration any longer and finally had to find something new.

      Good quality transcription and captioning companies pay well. If you’re good at it and enjoy it, I definitely advise working your way towards finding something that pays you appropriately.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        How does one know if a particular company is better? And where do we find this animal?

        1. Roja*

          Well, one way to know is by the pay they’re offering. My current company, 3Play Media, offers pay rates up to four times what Rev pays–one reason I applied there–but I don’t think even it is at the top of industry rates. It’s been a while since I’ve looked at rates so I can’t say for sure. But I can’t say enough good things about them; they’re highly professional and very clear.

          There are a lot of websites that curate WFH opportunities in the captioning/transcribing field that I’ve found very useful. I’d link but I’m on my small phone and that’s not an easy task. Bottom line is that good transcription and captioning, even offline captioning, is skilled work that commands a decent wage. Online companies that attempt a race to the bottom for worker wages are simply not putting out high quality products, so while it can be helpful for a very short period to get your foot in the door, you’re really not served by working for pennies at a company that doesn’t have a good reputation. One reason I jumped ship at Rev is because they significantly decreased their training, and it was very clear in the end product. I want to work for a company that has quality output, so while I really appreciated a lot of things about working there, it was time to go.

          Feel free to ask as many questions as you want, if you’d like to know more. Tomorrow I’ll have computer access again and can type more thoroughly.

          1. Roja*

            Uh-oh, I just saw way below that we aren’t supposed to name our companies. I’d appreciate it beyond words if my comment above isn’t acceptable to just edit out the name instead of deleting all of it, if possible! If we had editing ability for comments I’d gladly do it but unfortunately no luck there. Apologies!!

          2. Not So NewReader*

            Thank you so very much.

            I am not even sure what questions to ask. So I will ask this: What are your top 3 best pieces of advice to increase a newbie’s chances of success in this field?

            1. Roja*

              Number one, and I can’t stress this enough, is be a fast typist. That’s your key to a decent wage. If you’re not a fast typist, you either need to become one or you’re far better off in a different job where you can make more than a few dollars an hour.

              Number two, I’d say be really careful physically. Things like ergonomic keyboards and foot pedals can be really helpful. But most of all, be extra careful with wrist and hand pain. That was one of the major reasons why I switched from captioning to transcript editing, because I was constantly in pain. Now I feel it occasionally if I have a really long few days editing, but mostly I’m pain-free, and it’s fantastic.

              Other than that, know the style guide inside and out; that will really speed you up (and do your best to keep them straight if you’re working for more than one company!). Get really, really good at what you’re doing so you don’t have to spend long with companies that don’t pay as well. Get used to combing the internet for new opportunities. It’s not a bad idea to have two or three companies you work with so that during dry spells (holidays and summertime) you can still make money.

              And perhaps most important of all, be ready for a more difficult work-life balance. I survive because I’m willing to drop whatever I’m doing and work. That might be at 10pm after a hard day I come home and find a file that’s due at 9am the next morning, so I have to sit down and pound it out late into the night. You’ll need to be checking the hub (well, depending on how the company works) most of the time to snag good work, and you’re never guaranteed to find any. There’s a lot of uncertainty and flexibility, and if you can’t handle that, then it would be much better to find a more consistent job. The plus side, of course, is that I can take off whenever I want. That flexibility is golden. Of course, if you want an excellent wage and a proper job, look into real-time captioning. You have to go to school for it, and be able to handle stress, but it does pay well. It’s not for me, but it’s definitely a needed job.

              Good luck! I really do like the work, which is largely why I stick with it. There’s something very satisfying about file hunting and finding good ones, and knowing you’re contributing to accessibility for those who need it is extremely rewarding.

      2. nep*

        Thanks for the insights.
        I’ve read reviews that range from 5/’greatest thing ever’ to 1/ ‘run in the other direction! run!’
        I appreciated one quite positive review that ended with ‘it is what you make it.’
        Of course I’d like to and eventually will find work that pays my what my skills and background are worth (or at least much closer to that worth), but this is great in a pinch.
        And hell, now I know I’m pretty good at transcription. Perhaps I’ll include that in my search.

        1. Roja*

          Yes, can be a good way to get your foot in the door. Just keep a sharp eye out for drama, and be wary!

          I get a little frustrated with the it is what you make it. To some extent that’s true of all of life, but there’s also only so much you can do and so much you can earn when the rates are low. I was very, very fast and very good, and still only made $8-12/hour. That’s just not enough, so I was able to find a place that pays better. I can’t lie, I miss the fun of Rev videos and my awesome coworkers, but I don’t miss the low pay, wrist and hand pain, and company drama whatsoever.

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      Yes! I read about it on here too. I do lots of Rev work during my holidays and it gives me a bit of play money!

    5. nep*

      P.S. It’s not easy. Once you get into the longer files, it certainly eats up your time, and it’s work (again, pretty much for peanuts).
      I love it, but I’ve learned that I’ve got to stop racing to the ‘find work’ page to claim a new job before I tend to other things I need to do. You’ll see a file that’s 43 min of audio and your time block to complete it is, say, 15 hours. Seems crazy–but with everything else you’re doing throughout a day, it actually can get down to the wire. Some jobs can be intense.
      Enjoy.

  44. Swing low*

    Is it ever a good idea to talk ask a boss to clarify rumours about you getting fired / laid off? As in – you heard friends of friends of friends hearing a boss say that you are one of those getting the axe soon, and really want to confront your boss about whether this is the case.

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      In all likelihood, your boss won’t tell you, regardless. There are typically consequences for managers who spill the beans in layoff scenarios. Unless the two of you have a verrrryyyy longstanding friendship that predates your professional relationship, I really don’t see it yielding anything except more anxiety for you.

      And while I know my next statement may not be popular here, I tend to trust the grapevine/rumor mill to some degree. Rarely do rumors materialize out of thin air. If you know that your company will be doing layoffs, but just aren’t sure if you’ll be on that list, you have nothing to lose by getting your resume polished up and starting your search. Then you’re doing everything you can do and you may even find something better than your current gig.

      Best of luck!

      1. Swing low*

        Thanks Former Retail Manager XD Sadly, I have yet to establish a good enough rapport with current managers that they would likely spill the beans. I guess the only thing that I can do is start sending out applications!

    2. BRR*

      I agree with Former Retail Manager. You’re not likely going to be told it’s happening. A slight variation though from me though, if there is talk of layoffs you might be able to ask how stable your position is. I think you should be sending out applications and it might be smart to ask about your performance.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Barebones, tell yourself that you deserve to work for a place that does not threaten layoffs.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I don’t know if it’s a good idea to try to confirm it, but I’d plan like it was definitely going to happen.

      That said, I once asked my manager if I was at risk of the next layoff (happening within that week, but it was at least the third wave in 4 months). She hadn’t been my manager long but things were fine. She said she couldn’t tell me per policy. Then I asked a question that on the surface was normal but where the answer would pretty much indicate that I was on the list, and got my answer. She knew what I was going for and I know she wanted to be able to tell me, so this was a good loophole.

      The other layoff, I was 99% sure I was on the list because my manager avoided me for weeks before the news finally came out. Not that we met often anyway and I’m not great at reading people, but he had no poker face and the little signs added up. (Incidentally if it was a false alarm and I hadn’t actually gotten laid off, I definitely would have started job searching. I’ve never been considered bottom of the stack until that manager and I did not want him to be in charge of my career if that’s what he thought of my contributions.)

  45. AnonAnon*

    Am I supposed to just let projects fail?

    My team is planning an event this fall. It’s something that would normally fall in my job description, but when the idea for the event was first discussed months ago I told my manager (very directly) that I did not have the capacity to work on it. We discussed my workload and agreed that my other projects were priorities, and he decided to go ahead with the event but take the lead on it himself.

    The event is now less than a month away and he just… hasn’t. The event is happening (we have space, a registration page, and a few signups) but he hasn’t done anything else. Like, there’s no content for the event – he hasn’t determined what the agenda will be, identified or invited speakers, or developed any content. We have a working group of volunteers that met once and came up with some (great) content ideas… and he just sent them another email asking if they were willing to help and inviting them to a meeting to discuss content. (… they’ve already agreed to help, and they’ve already discussed content, and the event is a month away so now is not the time for more discussion.)

    I’m not sure what do to. Should I just let this event happen in whatever way it will happen under his leadership? (It may come together! Or it may have embarrassing low attendance and a thrown-together agenda.) Or should I step in and save it, even though I was clear that I didn’t have the capacity to do that?

    1. LQ*

      Yes. Sometimes you just need to let projects fail. If you don’t have capacity. If it isn’t possible. If your boss took it on. It’s your boss’s job.

    2. Free Meerkats*

      I say you make one offer, “If we take X and Z off my plate, I can help with $event. Do you want to do that?” If he says yes, do it, if he doesn’t, let the chips fall where they fall.

      But don’t do it without having the things that you both agreed were more important either delayed or given to other people. It may come back to bite you later when you say you can’t do A, but he remembers when you said you couldn’t do X and Z while running the event, but managed to do it anyway to save his butt.

    3. KEG*

      I think you should let it fail. If you step in and save it, you could establish a pattern where your manager will assume you will do something even when you say you can’t.

    4. Loubelou*

      Let it fail. If you step in now, it’s still pretty likely to fail (perhaps less spectacularly) but you are likely to be held responsible for it.

      I was in exactly your position a month ago – in fact, I could have written this post! The event is tomorrow, it’s a much smaller affair than it could have been and it’s only just likely to break even, let alone make any money (we’re a charity – sounds like you are too?). A month ago it looked like it would fail, now it will be relatively mediocre. I could have stepped in, but it would have meant letting other more important things go. So I mentally let it go and am feeling (relatively) free about it, but it took serious discipline not to step in.

    5. WellRed*

      Let it fail! No matter how good you are at your job, a month out from the event, well, I don’t think there’s any saving it.

      1. So totally anon*

        This just happened to me! An outside agency contracted with us for an event that was supposed to happen in 4 weeks. The planning began in May but no or little confirmation or movement for months. Someone that I didn’t know from their side emailed me for help as 90% of the planning had not been done. There was no way I could “let it fail” so I went to the top person and said that I couldn’t make it work and they had to postpone as it was my reputation and the reputation of my org on the line. I am still going over that “what haves, and what could I have done“ to make it work but I just had too much on my plate to assure success.

    6. Ron McDon*

      I am in this situation at present – our team used to be 4 people, now we are down to 2, and TPTB are not replacing the member of staff who just left.

      My boss has told me to just do what I usually do, not take on any extra work, and just let things fail, so TPTB realise we need at least one other person.

      We all took on extra when the 4th person left, and because we coped (by all working extra hours) they weren’t replaced – we won’t make that mistake again!

      Let it fail, otherwise it will happen again and again.

  46. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

    People that answer phones: how do you normally handle salespeople calling your business trying to sell you something? Normally if I get a pre-recorded message I hang up if I’m busy or if I’m truly not busy, sometimes I stick it out to see if there’s the option to take us off of their calling list at the end of the message.
    But when it’s a person on the other end, I normally have to tell them multiple times that we are not interested and they barrel over me with their pitches anyway and waste my time. Is it unprofessional to hang up on them or interrupt them to decline, since I’m supposed to be representing my company? Or do I let them do their pitch anyway and then decline?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I say, “I’m sorry, I’m not the best person to discuss that with, and a manager is not available right now. May I take your name and number and have someone call you back?”

      9/10 times they don’t have a call back number so they just say they’ll call again. If they do leave a number, I don’t bother to write it down. If they get ignored long enough they tend to stop calling. I consider interrupting a sales pitch to explain I’m not who they need to talk to a courtesy, so I do that freely.

      The exception is scammers. I get so many scam calls that I have resorted to straight up telling them to eff off. My coworkers think it’s hilarious.

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        Our team mascot is a stuffed cat who bursts out laughing when you squeeze his stomach. I’ve blasted him down the phone at scammers before (although mostly on my personal phone).

      2. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

        I love the callback number idea! I will for sure start using that. Thanks!

    2. Anon From Here*

      “I don’t have purchasing authority and the person who has that authority is not available.”

    3. Partly Cloudy*

      I usually interrupt the pitch with “we’re happy with our current [whatever] but thanks for calling, goodbye” and then hang up. So technically I’m not just hanging up on them, I’m ending the call. Usually they talk over me throughout my ending of the call, but hey, that’s not my fault….

      1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

        Yeah, I literally just did this which is what made me think of writing in. It felt rude afterward but I’m just not used doing it, and it feels weirder when I’m on the office phone rather than a personal one.

        1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

          Partly Cloudy’s strategy is one I use at work too, and the first few times I did it, I felt DEEPLY uncomfortable and rude. But I got used to it. I do not have time to waste on these calls, going back and forth because they won’t take no for an answer. I hereby release you from feeling guilty about hanging up after explaining you don’t require their services.

        2. Totally Minnie*

          They are the ones being rude by not accepting your “no.” I mean, it’s they’re job and all, and some places do require their telemarketers to behave in this rude way, but that’s still not a reason you have to listen to it. And telemarketers get hung up on ALL. DAY. LONG. I guarantee you they are not writing down the names of businesses where someone hung up on them.

    4. LQ*

      “I’m so far from the person who has the purchasing authority I don’t even know their name.” (Not always or actually true, but I work for government, there are forms and websites and stuff for that.)

    5. DaniCalifornia*

      You tell them once that you aren’t interested. If they continue I then say ‘No thank you, please remove us from your list.’ and hang up. We get about 20 a day so I’m not going to waste my time arguing with them. They get rude and I don’t feel it’s rude to hang up after politely telling them twice I’m not interested.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I used to say “please hold” and just stick them on hold until they got tired and hung up.

    7. Lumen*

      “We aren’t interested at this time. Please put us on your do-not-call list. Thanks!”

      and hang up. You can do this in as pleasant or chipper a tone of voice as you like. You can even interrupt them and talk over them to say it.

      My grand-boss (known for her effervescence, professionalism, and good-natured excellence) does this regularly whenever a sales call somehow gets routed to her. It isn’t rude, and if this ruins someone’s day, they need to be in another line of work.

    8. Decima Dewey*

      “We’re a City agency. There’s a City contract that covers what you’re trying to sell us.”

    9. I Love Thrawn*

      I start out being polite. Then I’m not polite. If necessary, I just hang up on them. I have zero tolerance for aggressive sales people.

    10. Natalie*

      I’m not a fan of saying any sort of “that person isn’t available” or “let me take a message” excuse because it just encourages the sales people to try and call back. I found that something that eliminated the possibility that they’d succeed if they kept trying actually cut down on the number of times the same place would call us. I used “we don’t accept sales calls” but you could change the wording to suit you.

      And then yes, you just have to hang up. It will get easier with time.

      1. Ron McDon*

        Yes, we find that when we try and be polite and say ‘the person you need to speak to isn’t available’ they just keep calling back.

        I think saying ‘thank you, but we aren’t interested, please take us off your call list’ is the way to go – honest, to the point and brief!

    11. BRR*

      I tell them we’re good and I will reach out to them if our circumstances change and sometimes add “I would hate for them to waste their time reaching out to me.” If they insist I tell them (remember, you’re in the driver’s seat with this conversation) that that is my preference.

    12. Bea*

      “I’ll take your information and pass it to the manager. She only takes scheduled calls unless you’re an established vendor.”

      Rinse and repeat. Then do not write down their information.

      They’re taught to pressure.

      I’m pissy because I’ve gotten turning cold callers down but get plenty passed to be now that I’m not on phones. DO NOT SHARE NAMES WITH THEM! Or use a fake one to giggle at next time they call and ask for Mr C Mustard.

    13. Emily S.*

      I have a few different tactics. Occasionally I just hang up on them. This is not unprofessional in my view (I’m an admin, and basically the phone gate-keeper for the office).

      – Sometimes I just say we’re not interested and hang up. Sometimes, I will also ask them to take us off their list.

      – If they insist on a specific person, I will sometimes just send the call straight to that person’s VM box.

      – Sometimes, if it’s obviously a sales call, I will send them to the VM box of a former employee, which never gets checked, and is only used for sales calls.

      – For the recorded message calls, if you stay on the call long enough, sometimes it will give you an option to press a certain key to be removed from their call list. I always try to do this in the case of recorded messages, because I think it may actually help.

    14. LilySparrow*

      If I was supporting the whole office, or the team that included the purchasing person, I’d confirm up front that they did/didn’t want pitches or written propss. If not, I’d say “we aren’t in the market, thanks.” Or “Our purchasing manager doesn’t take cold calls,” or whatever was the situation. If they were polite and reasonable and offered to send a packet, I’d say okay, or if I knew we were locked into something I’d tell them not to bother.

      If I wasn’t busy, I’d wait for a natural pause to say no. But if it’s a hot phone, or I was in the middle of something, I’d interrupt for sure.

      If they talk over you, hang up. Nobody can bowl you over on the phone unless you let them.

    15. Not Alison*

      I like to say “can you hold please” and then leave them on hold until they hang up. At least during the time they are on hold they are not wasting the time of either me or someone else.

      1. Bea*

        I’ve done this too. Sadly my office now has ringback after hold is used for 30 seconds. Usually the sales people are trained to disconnect after a minute. Sigh.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      I barrel over them, “sorry not interested”. If they keep talking I say, “I have to hang up now” and then I hang up. I do wait a beat or so in conversation because I try to match what is coming at me. If the person is basically polite then I politely tell them no thanks. If the person is a bulldozer, I work my way over to hang up on them.

  47. It Might Be Me*

    Went for a senior executive level interview. Wore my interview suit, tasteful heels, etc. I have claustrophobia and don’t like clothing that adds binding layers. So, the top with my suit was a Calvin Klein sleeveless blouse. When I arrived I discovered they were using a room where the air conditioning wasn’t working. The interviewers all knew and were in short sleeves, casual linen dresses, etc.

    I have older woman arms with that cottage cheese texture that I can’t seem to get rid of. So there I am. I could either sweat like crazy (unattractive). Or, I could remove my jacket and reveal my arms (unattractive). It was was very disconcerting. It set a tone for the interview and reminded me I was also interviewing them. I like my current position, but who knew with the right offer I might make the move. With a heads up I would have worn a short sleeve sheath dress (bring a suit jacket that I could wear or not). Instead I made a joke about it and kept the jacket on.

    I’m not sure how I could have handled it better.

    1. FCJ*

      How bizarre. Were there other rooms where the AC was working? Was this a weird power play to see how you HANDLE THE HEAT? Or is their building just awful and they’re all so blase about it now that they didn’t even think to mention?

      FWIW, though, unless your arms are particularly remarkable, I’m guessing they wouldn’t have noticed as much as you think. That doesn’t mean you did the wrong thing–if you’d taken your jacket off you’d have been self-conscious, which doesn’t help you be your best in an interview. Sounds to me like you handled it fine.

      1. It Might Be Me*

        Thanks for the kind words. You’re right, I would have been self-conscious about “not being presentable.”

        It turns out they did have another area available. This was a two part interview with full time staff asking questions. They had scoring sheets. Then a sit down around the a table interview. It turns out they had a larger meeting room and a connected board room with air where we could have met. Only one person thought to move there. I have a friendly acquaintance (who is the interim person in the position) that said she suggested it. The board was “But we planned to do it here.”

        I asked her yesterday if they were begging her to take the job (I ended my interview basically saying they should). She has a young child and there is serious staff dysfunction so she doesn’t want it. She asked me to take it if offered. The offer would have to be golden to do that.

    2. Kuododi*

      Speaking as the “Hot Flash Queen of USA” I am having all kinds of sympathetic reactions to the story about the overheated conference room. GACK!!! As far as clothing is concerned, I would be ditching the jacket at the first opportunity trusting your description of the blouse/top underneath was perfectly on point for the interview. (I kid of course… I am certain you were impeccable.). As far as the question of your arms is concerned. I have not had the pleasure of meeting you face to face. I have a feeling you are a perfectly lovely person and I wouldn’t even notice the physical state of your arms. I had more than one professor tell me back at the Dawn of Time when I was in school that if humankind knew how little attention we paid to one another’s supposedly
      “heinous” physical attributes the rates of low self esteem, social anxiety and the like would resolve themselves exponentially. (Not to be simplistic about the issue.). Ive always found something particularly wonderful about people who know who they are, take good care of themselves and their friends and family and age with Grace and wisdom. Best wishes…

  48. FCJ*

    Weird work smells thread! I just started a new job and one of the drawers in my desk smells like a baby. Like, the nice baby smell, but it’s not like there are babies or baby accoutrements just around at my place of work. I haven’t found any source for it.

    What strange smells are there in your workplace?

    1. CS*

      Not a strange smell, but my building is next to a University and for some reason every lunch time I smell BBQ, like really good BBQ. It’s insane!

    2. Amber Rose*

      Ever since yesterday, my office has smelled like glue. You know that kind of sweet smell that the goopy white glue they give kids to use has? It’s not a bad smell, but I have no idea what it’s coming from. We don’t even have any of that stuff.

      1. Not All Who Wander*

        I ordered a lumbar cushion for my chair & it released a very similar odor. It bothered me enough I actually ended up putting it in the trunk of my car to return. Amazon ended up just refunding it & not wanting it sent back so 2 months later it’s still in the trunk of my car and STILL stinks. I wonder if someone in your office got the same one…it was a best value one they were pushing for awhile.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      There’s a pond with a half-billion gallons of partially treated sewage outside my front door.

      Sometimes a truckload of pigs will go by on the highway, those really reek.

      1. FCJ*

        We’re occasionally downwind of a major feedlot that’s about 10 or 15 miles away–mostly cattle, but I think some pigs, too. Every once in a while when the wind and the humidity are just right, the whole valley smells like livestock.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          I’m currently working on a site with a stable across the road, some kind of pig shed in the field next door, and an agricultural field that is occasionally sprayed with muck. Most days it doesn’t smell but if the wind is right it is horrible.

    5. Nita*

      Sauerkraut. Someone has been eating something with sauerkraut at 2 PM for several days. Drives me up the wall, because at that point I’ve just eaten the last of my lunch, and bam!, I’m hungry again.

    6. Cousin Itt*

      I work in home fragrance so… everything smells. Mostly nice smells, sometimes not – I think a few of our scents smell truly awful.

    7. CheeryO*

      I’m in the wastewater industry, like Free Meerkats, so my daily travels take me to facilities emitting all manner of smells. You get used to it, sort of. Our actual office building is old and has a questionable HVAC system, so we get all sorts of odors from the garage next door. It’s good motivation to get out in the field more often.

      1. Free Meerkats*

        One of the things I love about my job is that I can spend a day in the field any time I feel like it. I think I’m going to do that today…

        And I can usually identify a chrome plater by smell alone – to stay on topic.

    8. Best cat in the world*

      I work in healthcare so there are some really really weird and horrible smells we come across. One of the worst is probably the service issue air freshener that just covers the nasty smells with a sickly layer rather than making it nicer!!

      1. WellRed*

        The air freshener in our bathroom is one if those plug in.melted wax things. Bathroom either smells like hot plastic apples or tampons.

    9. a*

      Our break room is on the complete opposite end of the building (1st floor, NE corner), but when someone makes popcorn, you can smell it in our office (2nd floor, SW corner). Nowhere else in the building – just the complete opposite corner. And our office is in a cantilevered portion of the building too!

    10. ThatGirl*

      I work for a baking supply company with a test kitchen so honestly, it usually smells pretty amazing upstairs – like cupcakes and magic, I describe it.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        It’s not a work smell, but my commute must take me past an industrial kitchen because every night it smells like heavenly fresh baked sweet bread — like Hawaiian roles. I die a little inside not being able to eat the fresh bread.

      2. Admin of Sys*

        I miss working down the hall from a test kitchen, not only would it smell divine, but sometimes they’d bring us stuff. *

    11. Anon-nom-nom*

      Old job shared a parking lot with a tortilla factory. When the wind shifted just right, we all got the munchies.

      Factory had a small store front where you could buy tortillas or taco shells or chips. If they’d been REALLY smart, they would have had a cooler with hot sauce and beer.

    12. Swing low*

      Not as nice in our case. For some reason, our office has been smelling like it had a secret new paint job over the weekend. A boss even asked a coworker if she had been doing her nails in the office. Weirdly, no, we had no coworker silly enough to paint her nails during work hours, and no, our walls still look as old as ever. Nobody is really sure where the secret paint smell is from.

    13. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      My boss loves flavored coffees. His latest preference is blueberry coffee. He also loves a Kahlua one that reminds me of maple glazed donuts for some reason. The Keurig is in my office (actual 4-walled office with a door).

    14. Emily S.*

      I know it’s not unusual, but the occasional burned popcorn is pretty annoying. The company provides free popcorn, and sometimes, people see fit to to zap it in the microwave for way too long, and then forget about it.

    15. HappyNose HungryTummy*

      There’s a chocolate factory a few blocks from my office, so about once a week the whole neighborhood smells like brownies baking!

    16. Lia*

      Today, our office reeked of pot. Usually, though, no odors.

      My SO’s office is over a restaurant and can smell delicious food ALL DAY, which is distracting!

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I would find this very disconcerting.

        That reminds me, though, I really like the smell of the standard cheap foamy soap you get in mall bathrooms and plastic port-a-loos around here. It’s really harsh on your skin but to me it smells like my favourite sandalwood perfume.

    18. Jemima Bond*

      We used to have a pool car assigned to a team I worked on, which smelled of curry when you put the heater on. I dread to think…

    20. Hamburke*

      I had a drawer that smelled like baby years ago. The woman who had my desk before me had babywipes and powder fresh deodorant in there along with other freshening up items – she ran during lunch. Once I met her and discovered the source, I ended up being glad it didn’t smell like gym bag!

      At my current job, I have a drawer that smells like fake rose room spray and another that smells like old books. Otherwise, it’s very neutral air.

  49. Cranky*

    I agreed to an in-person interview next week for a job I wasn’t particularly interested in because I haven’t been on an interview in a long time and felt obligated to do it since my job hunt isn’t going well.

    I ended up needing to make a semi-emergency doctor appointment for around the same time as the interview, so I need to cancel.

    I feel like a jerk for canceling now, but I’m not interested enough to want to try to reschedule. One of Alison’s posts suggested saying you’re focusing on other jobs that seem like a better fit for you right now if you need to *decline* an interview. Since I’m *canceling* one, do I need to also apologize or anything else?

    1. DivineMissL*

      I guess you could say that you had an urgent matter come up that conflicts with your interview; but as a result you don’t know when your schedule will allow you to come in, so you’re just going to withdraw your application, and thanks for the consideration? Something along those lines?

  50. MuseumChick*

    Please send good vibes my way. I just interviewed for a job that I really want. The interview went well, lasted about an hour, I sent my thank you note and got a warm response back. Of course, nothing is guaranteed but this would be a great move for me.

    5. MuseumChick*

      Thanks guys! It’s a bit bittersweet because this job would take me out of the museum field. I made a post on an open thread a while ago about why I’m leaving the field, I have to, but it still makes me a little sad.

  51. A. Ham*

    I did something that I felt needed to be done, but now a co-worker is mad at me (but I was mad at him first). How do you move forward after disagreements at work?
    Story: A few days ago I ran into a problem in our database system- something that should have already been set up was not there. It was a small but important thing, and it was preventing me from doing my job. But, the only person in the building who knows how to fix it is on vacation this week. Fortunately we have an off-site IT desk that can help in exactly this kind of situation. So, I contacted them, explained the issue, and they said they could fix it for me, no problem. Meanwhile I kept my vacationing co-worker in the loop, because it was a sort of “I’m going to get A fixed by IT because that’s most urgent, but when you get back B and C should be fixed as well”.
    Then this co-worker e-mails me back saying he called the help desk and told them to NOT do it! That “this isn’t something they should be worrying about (even thought they were willing to do it??) I’ll take care of it on Tuesday.” I replied and told him all the reasons that I couldn’t wait a week, that it messes up my already tight timeline and makes my life more difficult and all he said was “this is something that I should be taking care of, it’s not an emergency (he gets to decide that, even though it was my thing?), I’ll do it on Tuesday”.
    So, I ‘m a pretty level headed person and don’t get frustrated too easily, but this just didn’t make any sense to me and he wouldn’t give me a good reason WHY the people who COULD fix it shouldn’t. And the fact he went over my head and stopped that I had set in motion really irked me (by the way, he is not my superior; we are on the same level).
    This isn’t like me- and I’m not super proud of it- but I replied with a somewhat strongly worded (but I still don’t think totally unprofessional) e-mail saying how urgent this fix was for me and that I couldn’t wait until Tuesday. And was there ANYTHING else that I could do to make this happen faster? And asking again WHY my solution wasn’t a viable one. (If there was a good reason, that I wasn’t aware of, of course this would be a different situation, but I never got one).
    Then I got silence for a full day. (Yes, he is on vacation, but until that moment he had been very quick to respond).
    Then I went to my boss (also his boss. We are in the same department). Boss also was confused why the people who are there to help in these situations weren’t allowed to. He called vacationing co-worker and made it sound like it was his issue (“I asked A.Ham what the status of a project was and she said she had to wait until Tuesday”… etc.), and then had me contact IT again and have them fix it.
    I still haven’t had any contact from co-worker (it’s a couple days later) but I know he’s mad at me for taking this to our boss (He’ll see right through the boss’s call) I think I did the right thing- I needed to do my job- but it’s difficult for me to handle people being mad at me. I hate it. And I don’t like being a “tattle tale”. Not to mention until this point- three years- we have had a very good working relationship and I would even consider him a friend. Ugh. I am not looking forward to Tuesday.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Honestly? I am not sure why you felt the need to loop in your vacationing coworker in the first place. He is on vacation. Let him enjoy it and not worry about work.

      1. A. Ham*

        I get that.
        It is common practice in my org. to keep people in the loop about anything that may affect them once they are back in the office. There is no requirement or expectation that people check their e-mail while out, or that they take any action on something they receive while out. We are always writing these with the assumption that it will not be read/dealt with until they are back.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          So you were sending things to his work address and he was checking that? Hmm, that is different. I was reading it as you reached out to him personally.

    2. mkt*

      You’re not being a tattletale – it was an issue impacting your work and you addressed it with your boss to get it resolved.

      It’s not personal. You made a work call and the action decision differed from his opinion. If he’s mad at you that’s on him, not you. Just continue to treat him professionally and loop in your boss as needed and things should be fine.

    3. Bea*

      Next time wait until IT fixes it to loop anyone in. The decision isn’t up for debate, it’s an FYI.

      You did the right thing escalating to your boss. Now you know the coworker is a self righteous blowhard and not to be trusted to be level headed.

      Just put it out of your mind and if he starts acting messy upon return, immediately report his petty ass.

    4. SarahKay*

      You are not a tattle tale! You had a work problem that you couldn’t fix in a timely manner, so you quite rightly escalated it to your boss.
      That said, I have all the sympathy for you, because I hate being at odds with co-workers too. But I honestly don’t think you had a choice here – co-worker hadn’t fixed it, wasn’t letting you fix it, and wasn’t telling you why he wouldn’t let you fix it.

    5. It’s me*

      Gonna have to agree with the Detective here, if someone is on vacation I don’t bother them and if I knew IT could solve my problem I would have let them and looped coworker in once they were back to work.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        OP already explained that it’s the norm in her office. Mine as well – if I didn’t email my boss about an issue while she was on vacation, she would be very unhappy. Our president is at the beach right now and I just texted him about something important and got an immediate reply thanking me for bringing it to his attention.

        1. LaurenB*

          And he sent it to his work email – I don’t expect people to NOT send me emails when I’m away, I just don’t check them! (My work doesn’t expect me to.) Waiting till he was back to send him an email defeats the purpose of email.

    6. BRR*

      It sounds like your coworker is in the wrong so in that case one part would be letting him be mad at me. Some options to consider are treating it like it never happened and continue being professional, saying nothing and asking how he would like you to handle it next time, or you could apologize that you couldn’t wait for him to get back (this respects his “territory” if that’s what might be upset about).

    7. M. Albertine*

      I read a pretty good distinction today that might help: “Tattling” is for the purpose of getting the other person in trouble. “Telling” is for protecting yourself. Sounds like this is the latter situation.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I am hoping we can some how ditch the term “tattle-tale”. If someone is interfering with your ability to do your job that is a reportable problem period.
      Your co-worker should have known that he cannot prevent people from doing their jobs. Probably he wanted it done a certain way and he was positive IT would not do it that way.
      He could have:
      1) Pulled your boss into the discussion as to why his way was absolutely necessary and ITs way would have been wrong for your department. He could have asked your boss to advocate with IT here.
      2) He could have emailed IT and said “I prefer approach A, can you do that when you repair this situation?”
      3) Perhaps he could decide to let IT do it and he would fix it when he got back if he did not like it or it did not work somehow.
      4) Perhaps the situation is such that he knew about it and could have repaired it before he left.

      He was not without recourse here. Chin up, you had to be able to do your job.

      I understand not liking to have people mad at you. It’s not comfy at all. But understand we are not responsible for other people’s emotions and the resulting behaviors from their emotions. Instead of being silent he could have asked you if the two of you could talk about this when he gets back. Again, that’s not the option he chose.

      One of my go-to formats I use for such things is, “Gee, Bob, that was a lot of reaction for a not so big thing. What’s up?” If he indicates he will not speak to you, then you can just say, “Bob, I am not mad at you. I just had to get that fixed. There’s nothing here for me to be mad at you for. When you are ready to talk, let’s talk.” Then walk away. Put the ball in his court, where it belongs.

  52. Mirameh*

    Can people learn to use their words please? It would solve so many problems.

    Apparently one of my coworkers has asthma and my perfume bothers her (the post yesterday was good timing). So did she tell me and ask me to stop wearing perfume (which of course I would have done)? No. She goes straight to grandboss and I get called in for a meeting and formally ordered not to wear perfume at work. Apparently she put up with it for as long as possible before she no longer could (this is perfume I got for my birthday 3 weeks ago). I had no idea before this that it bothered her…of course I will stop immediately but this leaves rather a bad taste in my mouth. Why did she leave it so long? Why didn’t she just ask me to stop wearing it when it first bothered her? Why did she feel the need to go over my head and our manager’s head. We sit next to each other so she could just have told me any time and I would have stopped wearing it.

    Now I don’t trust her judgement. If she will sit on a problem as serious as struggling to breath for three weeks before saying anything what if she notices a problem in our work? Will she say something or leave it until it becomes serious? If she is incapable of simply asking me to stop wearing it is she capable of solving problems that come up in our work on her own? For the past three weeks she has been friendly and chatty as normal and not said anything about having any problems with my perfume. If she was having such problems and said nothing I feel that was rather…two faced. To say one thing to my face and another to management. Does she hate me and want to get me in trouble? This coincides with my getting a promotion we both applied for which makes me wonder.

    Am I overreacting? Also before people jump down my throat I do not take issue with the request not to wear perfume but the way it was handled. Why couldn’t she just say something earlier? The timing (my promotion) and the way it was handled make me suspicious.

    1. EvilQueenRegina*

      If it wasn’t for the fact that she’s no longer with us I’d be thinking that was my ex coworker. She had a problem with the woman sat opposite her putting the air conditioning on, and instead of bringing it up with her directly, she also went to grandboss.

    2. Rebecca*

      Oof – yes. I am not a fan of “smile and act like nothing is wrong” and then go to a manager to complain about something a coworker is doing when you can’t even bring it up first. I agree, she could have said “Oh hey, I noticed you’re wearing a new perfume, I’m really sensitive to scents and it’s [insert what it’s doing here]. I’d like to ask that you not wear it in the office or while we’re working closely together.” or something like that. I know I’d like to know if I was negatively affecting a coworker!

    3. CS*

      To be fair, I wouldn’t have had the guts to tell someone about their perfume even if i were suffering. I’ve been in a situation were a man i work with wears way to much “Manfume” and i start sneezing when i’m around him, i jokingly asked him to chill with the spray and he got offended, so for me i’ve just learnt to shut my mouth.

      Some people like to run to their manager and some can act like adults and deal with an issue with that specific person. In most cases i like to talk to that person.

      Do you and this person talk? Would she see you as someone who is approachable?

      1. Mirameh*

        We sit next to each other. Which if my perfume was affecting her would have made it much worse which makes her reluctance to say anything even more strange. I thought before this that we had a good friendly working relationship but this has made me question that.

      2. Lis*

        Oh I was just going to reply to the original post that back in the day (late 80’s early 90’s) my father had to stop wearing a particular aftershave because a coworker kept sneezing if he did, once they figured out the correlation he just didn’t use that aftershave when he had to work (or possibly ever again, I don’t remember). He took no offence, she wasn’t saying anything about him just the product made it hard for her to do the job so he used something else.

    4. Inopportune Moose*

      Could you frame it in your head as a possible kindness on her part? That she was maybe so overwrought after having breathing problems for almost a month that she didn’t trust herselfnot to get too emotional during that conversation? That doing it this was saved both of you from any possible allegations of retaliation / improper conduct / pettiness around the timing of this and that missed promotion?

      I’m not saying that she necessarily DESERVES the benefit of the doing, but I’ve found that when I have to work with people I dislike, it’s a whole lot easier if I can create room for that “maybe.”

      1. Mirameh*

        I don’t know if you are right or not but I hope you are. I don’t want to not trust her anymore. But even then why would she wait almost a month while suffering rather than just say something the first day (or first few days if it didn’t affect her immediately). It would have saved everyone a lot of time and stress.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d probably say “hey, next time you have a problem with something, please talk to me first.” But I am a confrontational sort of person.

      Did you explain to grandboss that you would have been happy to oblige the request if coworker had simply asked?

    6. Rey*

      Bless you for being so reasonable about not wearing the perfume as soon as you found out about her issue. It sounds like this really caught you off guard, and it’s definitely understandable to feel that way. I don’t think any grandboss could reasonably take this into consideration when determining promotions, since you presumably don’t have a history of being a terrible coworker or otherwise tormenting your colleagues. And unless there have been other instances of backstabbing from her, I would just reframe it to think that maybe something in her personal life or personality has taught her that it’s better to handle things this way. If you felt like you wanted to say something, you could try, “I was really shocked and surprised to hear about the perfume issue from grandboss. We have always worked well together and I am glad that we can communicate directly. If there’s any issues like this in the future, you can come to me directly as soon as it comes up.”

    7. Bea*

      I loath people going out of order for requests like this. It reminds me of the people who will bring your first and only mistake to the boss as well.

      I had one dude just go to my boss years ago saying “I think this hardware package is wrong. It feels light.”

      The idiot didn’t even open it and count the pieces first. It just felt off and he made a big deal out of it.

      It was one of the million things I did (literally tossing screws into a bag and rubber banding it for the packing guy)

      My boss was like “yeah…you could just ask her yourself or better yet, fix it yourself but fine, I’ll do it your way” and had me check. I almost threw the bag of screws at the guy but being an adult who isn’t one to assault old men, I just rolled my eyes to his face and tossed it back in the bin.

      He didn’t last long.

      Your coworker is probably one of those “I hate confrontations!” or thinks it’s just not her job to make a request to you. So she needs someone else to hold her hand.

      I had a few staffers who brought me things to handle because “I’m not their boss, you are.” But I didn’t haul anyone in and demand change. I knew they’d comply so it was a breezy “Hey, Anita gas allergies it turns out! So we can’t wear perfume anymore so she can breathe easy!” wtf demanding you stop is OTT and for if you push back on a reasonable request.

    8. Moonbeam Malone*

      I kind of wonder if you could just ask her why she went to grand-boss. As casually as possible. “Hey, coworker, I had no idea my perfume was bothering you. I was sort of mortified to find out you were just suffering in silence! Were you worried that I would refuse, or did you have another reason for going to grand-boss first? I hope you feel you can trust me to take requests like that seriously!” She might have a reasonable explanation, or even a silly explanation that makes sense on some level. Honestly I think the most likely reason is just that she felt super awkward and unsure if it was an appropriate/reasonable request to make, and if it was a larger policy issue, if she needed to frame this as a formal request for accommodation, whatever. (Basically, I suspect she was overthinking this. Weird that she went to grand-boss rather than direct boss, but sometimes people psych themselves into weird conclusions!)

      tl/dr: I get why you’re miffed, but I wouldn’t necessarily assume the worst of coworker just yet.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is what I would do. I would land on, “Going forward, please tell me directly. I think you will find that I am not hard to work with.”
        Then I would tell the grandboss I did that and I would ask him to back me up by asking her if she spoke to me first.

    9. BRR*

      I think this is one of, if not the biggest, main themes of this site: Being able to communicate professionally and directly with people. Not only are people not inherently good at it, but a lot of times people don’t even know that it’s ok to talk directly to someone. If this is the first real issue with her, I would treat it as she was afraid of confrontation or didn’t know that it’s ok to ask someone to not wear perfume.

    10. Ann O.*

      It doesn’t sound like you’re using your words to talk to her either.

      I suspect she didn’t talk to you directly because it’s awkward to ask peers to do things for us. She also may have had a bad experience in the past with a peer taking offense at a request.

      Also, now the company is in the loop that scents can be an issue for her (and by extension, potentially other coworkers). This lets them be proactive.

      You seem to be taking her choice as a personal judgement on you, but it probably wasn’t. However, the best way to resolve your concerns is to do what you wish she would have done: talk about it directly.

    11. foolofgrace*

      I also probably wouldn’t tell the coworker about the perfume, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t speak up if I noticed a problem with the work. Two different motivations there. The first one feels personal and I’d be afraid of blowback to my request, whereas the second one is all business. Yes, you could say the first issue is business also, but to me it feels more personal, hence I’d be hesitant to mention it. I’m not good at confrontation in general. I wish I knew how to fix that.

    12. Jaid_Diah*

      Late to the discussion, but the coat hook in my shared cubicle would constantly disappear. I kept on getting new ones and they’d disappear, too. Finally, I took some whiteout tape and stuck it on the BACK of the hook and wrote on it that I cursed the person stealing ’em.
      Turns out my nightshift partner was irate that my sweater hook was slightly over on “her” side of the cubicle wall, so she’d get rid of them.
      Next thing I know, there’s an EO thing going on, where she’s going on about how she’s a good Southern Baptist woman and oh noes, I’m a witch. We get most of that crap settled, where I apologize for “cursing her’ and make sure the coat hook is on “my side” of the wall. She ends up with a statue of the Virgin Mary and a palm cross on her side of the desk, a written prayer to Jesus to keep her safe from me, and hangs a desk calendar on the cubicle wall where she notates when I left my desk fan on after I leave and other “offenses”.
      Eventually, the Department Manager asks me about moving to another cubicle, assuming that N/SP, her boss, my boss, and I had a discussion about it. Nope, and I like where I’m sitting, thanks. The DM is pissed that N/SP and her boss lied about talking to me and moves her instead.
      It was a big annoyance, just for her wanting a cubicle of her own. She ended up having to share one with a dude, but she wasn’t able to pull shenanigans on him. Thank G-d she left for another job.
      Sigh.

  53. EvilQueenRegina*

    Thanks to Alison for the advice given to me to still apply for a new job (promotion) I really wanted when I wasn’t sure if it was the right thing to do because out of my team of 6, 3 of the others had resigned, 1 is on secondment but doesn’t want to come back, and 1 was rumoured to be looking.

    Juts found out this week that I got the promotion – will be starting on the higher grade in my existing team at least initially while training up some new guy, and then depending on what happens with him, move across to another department. Looking forward to the new challenge.

  54. Inopportune Moose*

    Any tips for moving on from a micro manager? I’m coming from a boss who might allow me to make $30,000 purchasing decisions on my own, but also nitpicked fonts (think Arial vs. Calibri) and email subject lines. I’m also moving from a junior position to one that’s much less so, and don’t want to come off as not knowing how to do my job. Any advice on determining how often and at what points to check in with a new manager? Are there options beyond a direct conversation?

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      As someone who has transitioned out of a series of micromanagers, I think there have a been a few things that have been helpful. The first, and honestly most important, has been remembering that I got used to an unhealthy work dynamic and that it will feel weird to change it, but that it’s a positive change. I had to do a lot of self-talk/positive reinforcement to remind myself that I was not taking a huge risk every time I was doing something without running it by a manager.

      I would pay a lot of attention to how your new manager handles things during your on-boarding and first few projects, with the caveat that they’re likely to want to be more hands on when you’re newer. (Though if you’re senior enough that they expect you to be running all your own work, they might not.) I think you could say things like “would you like to review a draft of this report [or email] before I share it more broadly?” without it seeming like you don’t know what you’re doing. Also, if my bosses are suggesting a new project and I don’t know if they want to have oversight on it, I generally think it’s reasonable to ask that directly. And, I have definitely asked directly what new supervisors want to be cc’ed on because that seems like a very personal (and organizational culture) decision.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Open the discussion. “Boss, I am not sure where all the limits are for my authority and judgement calls. I would like us to have random and on-going conversations about your expectations, company expectations and other’s expectations.”
      This sets the foundation. Days/weeks later you can go in with specific questions. “Boss I need a decision on A vs B and I wanted to know if I can go ahead and decide or if I needed to check with you/someone else first.”

      I have asked questions such as, “I need y from Department A. Can I just go ask, or should I ask you to step in?”

      Using specific examples will help you get through the learning curve faster.

  55. Theresa*

    Interviewed for a job this morning that I really want. I’m not sure if I’ll get it though it’s so hard to get a feel for them. And basically all they would say is we are interviewing a few other people next week and we need to make the best decision for the company and not for your life..so idk if that is a bad sign or just her way of not saying I want to hire you or not. Meh. I hate looking for work.

    I have another interview this afternoon but idk if I’ll like that job I got a bad vibe from the guy on the phone.

    1. Bigintodogs*

      I feel you. I’m interviewing as well and I had the weirdest one earlier this week. It was a phone interview with the guy who would be my manager, and like half the interview was him giving me unsolicited advice saying I should “stick it out” at my current job. Bizarre. I haven’t heard back from them and I’m not too worked up about it because I wouldn’t want to work for him anyway.

  56. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

    Need some folks to weigh in! Am I being a curmudgeon, or is this weird: A past co-worker, who worked at our organization for two years and has been gone a year and a half, is still requesting invitations to company outings and events for staff – and even bringing family members to these events. The office just received an invitation to her baby shower, and links to her registry. I feel like this is an overstep of norms, that she shouldn’t be invited to events, and while a baby announcement could be appropriate to send – its odd to send one to the office as a whole, instead of just to co-workers she was close with. Am I off base?

    2. PB*

      No, you’re not off-base. It’s odd to want invitations to company events after you don’t work there anymore. Sometimes, we’ll invite retirees to events, but I don’t think they *expect* it; we extend the invitations by choice. Sending a baby announcement is a little weird, and including the registry feels gift-grabby. Sending to people you’re close to? Sure! Sending it to the whole office? Maaaaybe, but leave the registry off.

    3. CTT*

      If she’s still in touch with folks there sending a baby shower invite to the office isn’t totally bizarre (I wouldn’t do it, but maybe she figures the office manager or whoever will pass word along to there rather than sending individual invites?), but her asking for invites to work events is so strange

    4. Four lights*

      That’s weird. I’ve seen it happen for people who worked a decade or more and the retired, but that’s not the case here.

    5. Rey*

      Yes, I think it’s weird that she is still requesting invitations to company outings (is she the only previous employee who is being invited?) and sending invites to social events like a baby shower. Although, I presume that whoever is sending the invites has permission from their boss to do so. I think my office still receives Christmas cards from previous employees (which seems like a nice annual update for those who knew them without being an invite to a social gathering or any expectation of presents).

      1. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

        I think she’s finding out about the events from current employees that she is still friendly with — then she just *happens to drop by* the office on the day of the event, or she’ll send an email to the party organizers about something unrelated…but then add “oh by the way, when is the xyz event? I’d love to stop by and say hello!” …and also consume the free food and drinks :) We haven’t invited other previous employees, and none of them have ever asked – even though many of them are still friends with current employees.

        1. Rey*

          This sounds like someone who hasn’t moved on with their life and I don’t think she realizes that it comes across as weird or that its kind of unhealthy for her to spend this much time and effort to force a relationship with previous coworkers in their work setting. If it’s that important to you, just become Facebook friends! (I always clock it when someone retires-how many weeks/months before they come back again. Of course, it’s nice to see someone 1-2/year but I also think it’s healthy to be very purposeful about it. When I started as a student secretary, the old secretary kept coming in and I felt very undermined because an administrator would save super basic questions that I could have handled, like how to print labels or envelopes.)

    6. Bea*

      She’s a strange duck!!!

      I’m close to my former bosses and may visit while in town. Bring in some lunch or flowers and catch up for a few. I’ll bring donuts for the crew or whatever. I still don’t ever want to or think of attending their functions.

      She’s way too over familiar and clearly thinks y’all are friends….

      I’ll invite like 3 people from previous jobs to my wedding one day but we have established relationships!

    7. Emily S.*

      She is being ridiculous. No, that is not normal.
      She is no longer part of your organization, full stop. She should not be invited to any company events, and also should not be sending any of her own invites.

    8. Annie Moose*

      I agree that’s super weird. Inviting people she was close with and still hangs out with to her baby shower? Totally normal. Being a part of company events for maybe a month after leaving? I can understand this, especially if it’s something everyone looked forward to like a big Christmas party. But she’s been gone A YEAR AND A HALF. She doesn’t work there anymore!!

    9. Chaordic One*

      This is definitely weird. I’ve worked at places where they would sometimes invite long-term former employees to evens like holiday parties, but these were elderly retired people who had previously worked at the company for the previous 40 years and I kind of understand inviting them.

      But what you’re describing is weird. If she had made friends when working there and if she continues to have a personal relationship with those friends she should be inviting them directly and not through your company. Similarly, I don’t see why she would be invited to company functions and if it were up to me, I would put a stop to it.

  57. Bea*

    This time last year I was wading into a clusterfk. I was putting in 60hrs a week and constantly running. Now I’m struggling to fill my 40hrs. I love it here and I’m not going anywhere (I also make more money, go figure.) I’m just on struggle street.

    I have started to develop a distaste for the person before me as well. On the positive side…I have slightly more to do because she didn’t. So I had a backlog of imaging and organization to fill some of the gaps at least. But I’m also stuck wondering why the heck she didn’t do these things. It’s my general loathing for loose ends and inefficiency popping up to needle at me.

    I undertook a project to clean out overstock supplies. And I Tasmanian deviled right through it. But things look good and I got to give the stuff to a local school, so I’m super happy but now I’m bored again.

    So yeah just rambling because my day is slow until the afternoon. I’m not used to feast or famine even after almost a year into the shift.

    1. Nita*

      Huh, I’ve also ended up with more salary and less work. It’s seriously weird. Nice to not be constantly overwhelmed, but still weird. I’ve been filling slow days with writing proposals to potential clients – which works out funny when they all decide they do need the work done, three months later, and all at the same time.

      1. Bea*

        I’m an accountant so I can’t do too much more than what I’ve got at any given time. I have made up procedure docs for everything because all ours were drastically outdated and full of holes. I came in and was like “how do you do this in the system?” and was told they didn’t know…so I figured it out and wrote docs for each one.

        I came in to an established enough office but with holes to patch. I hear nobody felt empowered or like they wanted to take ownership over little crap. So I’m like “I’m here now. I will do it.”

        It’s so common to be overworked and underpaid. My salary worked out to be $17 an hour after all the hours I wasted last year. But exempt because I fit snuggly into the crappy definition. Yay I got to make decisions and run things. For peanuts.

        I’ve also learned to love punching a clock after that nonsense!

  59. MuseumChick*

    This wasn’t tattling. Tattling is “Coworker took an 70 minute lunch instead of a 60 minuet lunch”. You did the right thing and even if you think he can see through what you boss said I would stick with that story, there is nothing he can do to disprove it right? “Oh, yeah, boss asking about X so I explained it couldn’t be fixed until you got back. That was my understanding based on our communication.”

    You didn’t do anything wrong here. If he’s mad that’s on him not you.

    1. Margali*

      I know it’s just a typo, but I am so amused at the thought of someone dancing 60 minuets during their lunch hour!

  60. Four lights*

    I quit my job last year but have been doing a small amount of contract work for them, very informal. I’ve decided to stop. I need help wording the email to my old boss telling him that…any suggestions?

    I also feel a little bad because it’s a very small company and a few people quit after I did, so I know it’s been rough, and old boss is gonna have to scramble and find someone else to do what I’m doing.

    1. Anon From Here*

      I’d start with:

      “In [X] weeks, I will no longer be available for consulting with the company. It has been a pleasure to work with you for so long, and I wish you the best in the company’s future endeavors.”

      Add a sentence or two on either side to pad it out and you should be good to go.

  61. Wondering Wanderer*

    My husband and I are planning to move to a new city in spring 2019, and start a family about a year after that. I will be (fingers crossed!) transferring to another office within my company. I just got put on a new project that will extend into early 2020
    This has come up in past letters (and yesterdays open thread was great!), but I’d like some real world stories.
    – how did you time leaving/transferring with project responsibilities? There will never be a “good time” to leave, one project ramps up when another ends… did you keep working on office 1 projects while at office 2?
    -how soon is too soon for maternity leave? would you look askance at someone at a new job (or new office in my case) taking maternity after a year?

    1. Bigintodogs*

      Maternity leave after a year seems reasonable to me. It’s not like it’s after only a few months. It gives you time to establish yourself at the company before taking some time off.

  62. MaternityAnon*

    I work at a moderately sized software company, I’ve been here three and a half years. I’d been on my current team about a year and a half when I had my first child. I went on (unpaid, except for vacation time) FMLA, and negotiated to come back for 12 weeks part time, before returning to full time. We’re currently 4 and a half weeks into that part time period, and we’re facing a childcare crisis where, if I don’t magically find someone I’m comfortable leaving my child alone with in the next week and a half, I’m going to need to give my two weeks notice.

    I need scripts. I feel terrible about this. I love my manager, I love my work, I really enjoy my team, and we’re in a period where we desperately need more people. But my husband’s already using the rest of his paternity leave to work opposite me, which is how we’re eking out these eight weeks, he also loves his job, and is paid much, much better and all our benefits are through him. I do really enjoy my child and watching child learn and grow and explore and we’ve discussed reserving time each week for me to work on personal dev projects/volunteer/look for part time remote work, so I’m not unhappy about that part of it, it’s the leaving that’s hard. (although there’s vague feelings of letting down women in the workforce, etc)

    This is also my most solid work experience in my field. How likely is this to burn a bridge?

    Finally, my FMLA was mostly unpaid except for whatever vacation time I had accrued. I know it’s possible for companies to claw back benefit costs used during FMLA if people don’t return afterwards, is that likely to happen with the vacation time paid?

    1. DCGirl*

      The law allows them to claw the employer’s contribution to benefits such as health insurance that was paid while you were on leave, not vacation time, but the number of employers who do so is very, very low.

    2. Bea*

      Vacation pay can’t be clawed back after it’s approved and you’ve taken the time! Only other benefits you may have. You did return, you didn’t flake and you’d give 2 weeks. Most places will not be vicious with you given the circumstances.

      That’s for if you leave 3 months, keep benefits and then never return!

    3. CAA*

      If you will have been back at work for 30 days before quitting, which it sounds like you have, then they would not able to recover benefits costs. In any case, the recovery is only for the employer’s share of health insurance premiums that they paid while you were on leave and the employee’s share of other benefits that they paid for you while you were out, such as disability, life insurance, etc.

    4. ronda*

      I am not understanding why giving notice is your only option.

      If you want to stay full-time at your company, explain the problem to your manager and your expectations about how long it will take to ‘fix’

      If you would rather be a stay at home mom, explain to your manager that you have tried to come back, but you think the best thing now is to stay at home with your child. Or if you want to remain part-time, explain what you want that to look like.

      Your manager may or may not agree to these. If they don’t, professionally thank them for working with you so far and then resign.

      As long as you go with one of these, your manager probably won’t feel like you are burning a bridge.

  63. Anonymosity*

    *still cannot make this website store her username and is about to chew a hole through the screen* D:<

    Blergh Update:

    — Turned in my sample product copy for the web content writer job last Sunday and have heard nothing yet.

    — The StL editor job, the one I thought had ditched me, contacted me and requested an AP style quiz and a test edit on a client article. *GULP* I got those back as fast as I could. Now waiting. And hoping. Recruiter said she was hoping to get back to me by the end of this week. *pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease* This job is better than the content job, because I could learn more and would be in a larger market (such as it is). Hoping they want more contact and hoping they offer. Not only would it be a move in the direction I want to go, but it would get me out of here and put a non-admin job at the top of my resume. Please please please please please please let it be this one and not the other one.

    —I have an interview on Tuesday for an admin position at a wildlife museum/aquarium. Would rather not have another admin job, but I'm trying to keep the hunt moving in case nothing happens with the StL thing, as AAM advises.

    I have a realtor coming over today to look at my crumbling albatross of a house just in case I have to leave. I sincerely hope it will be for a new job and not because I can't find anything. :(

    Please please please please please please. Come on, universe. I know you're doing something and I hope it's all the things, but you need to hurry the eff up because this is just stupid.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’ve been having the username issue on my work computer and it is very frustrating! I have just been making sure to click the box below that says “save my name, etc” every time I actually comment.

      Sending you good vibes for the job!

        1. BRR*

          Happening to me as well. I believe the links at the top for collapsing comments were enlarged to help with the current comment situation and my hunch is that affected the commenting system.

        2. Annie Moose*

          Yesss, I just noticed this in the past week or so as well. Glad to know it’s not just me.

          After having to repeatedly click the checkbox on several comments, it seems to be sticking for now–we’ll see how long that lasts. (it may be sticking as long as I’m on the same page? I haven’t done a thorough test)

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Mine just came back today after not being able to recall it for most of the week. Maybe others will start to get theirs back also?

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It’s fixed now. It was a WordPress update to comply with GDPR but it wasn’t remembering people’s preferences. It should be now. Email me if you’re still having problems.

        1. Someone Else*

          Suggestion:
          If you’re still having problems after the fix was applied, before emailing Alison it might be worth clearing your cache and cookies first, then resetting your intended setting and see if it sticks. That may resolve it if it didn’t just automatically start working.

    2. Bea*

      I thought it was my phone upgrading and making storing the name an issue. Sigh.

      I’ve been better. You just have to click the box each time. Grrr

    3. WellRed*

      Oh, also having the user name issue! The fact that you suddenly have several interviews for more appropriate jobs feel to me like the universe is finally shaking some good things lose for you. It’s time.

  64. Decima Dewey*

    Some months ago, the City gave the employees in DC 47 (white collar union) a new contract. Nice raise, a signing bonus, and the raise was made retroactive for one year. The City was supposed to give us a check for the difference by July 31st. Sorry, by August 31st. Oops, within the next couple of weeks, according to the latest word.

    And employees are complaining. X needs the money now, is there any possibility of the check being direct deposited, and so far. Never mind that the City likes giving signing bonuses (and presumably the retroactive adjustment check) as live checks. Also that the retroactive raise is more complicated than the signing bonus employees get with each contract. The signing bonus is a straightforward X dollars (less withholding). The retroactive raise is more complicated: shift differences, overtime, holiday pay. So I’m not surprised it’s taking a long time for payroll to figure out.

    1. Miso*

      Ugh, tell me about it.
      We got a new collective agreement mid April that retroactively starts from March.
      We’ll get the raises (and the back pay) with our September pay… (so end of September.) Definitely didn’t take that long last time.

  65. Bees' Knees*

    My last job ended a few weeks ago and it had a delightful under 15 minutes commute. This job I just started can be anywhere from 30 minutes to an 130. I work twelve hour days, and it’s been a week and I’m already exhausted, this gig last til March, so not the absolute end of the world but I don’t want to be miserable for the next seven months. Any tips or tricks for making a miserable commute less miserable, or dealing with erratic traffic when you have a set start time?

    1. Four Lights*

      You could start listening to books on tape.

      For traffic, I check Google maps before I leave the house. It tells me the best route to take, and how much of a delay there is. (really I have a google home, so I ask it “How’s my commute?” You can do that with your phone if you have Android)

    2. Kelly White*

      I second the audiobooks idea- I started doing this a few months ago and my enjoyment of my commute has gone way up, and my stress level down.
      We can get CD’s from the library, but I mostly borrow on-line (so free) and stream them.

    3. Bea*

      If you like audio books (I prefer them to music for many things), you can also subscribe to Audible through Amazon. $15 a month and a fresh book. Or super discounted ones after the first one.

      Borrowing is cool too but some libraries suck at selection and I’ve lived most my life without library access so I’m not quick to assume you have access or time.

    4. DivineMissL*

      Audiobooks are great, my library has downloadable audio books that I can load right on my phone/tablet for free. The only downside is that, unlike borrowing an audiobook from the library, the book automatically disappears from your tablet at the end of two weeks; so you have to remember to renew it prior to the deadline if you’re not finished.

      I also suggest podcasts; I loaded the Podcast Addict app on my tablet for free, and there are TONS of free podcasts. I just download them at home in bunches so I can listen to them on the go. I love “You Must Remember This” and “Unspooled” about classic movies; but there are podcasts about almost any subject you might enjoy!

  66. curly sue*

    Any advice on how to deal with nebulous feedback when specific outcomes are obviously expected but not being clearly communicated?

    This is for my better half, not me, but I’m wondering if there are strategies I can pass along. To make a very long story short, husband works in a design industry and there’s been a very sudden management turnover – his immediate supervisor was fired for… not supervising. Not communicating client needs correctly or giving appropriate guidance, and so on.

    The interim supervisor is a (let’s say) basket packaging designer, so he knows the industry and the processes, but not necessarily all the intricacies of basket design specifically. He’s started having meetings with the basket design crew in order to whip them into shape, but his feedback is all along the lines of ‘the basket needs more *oomph*’ or ‘can’t you make it have, you know, *pizzazz*?’ And when asked to provide an example of what ‘pizzazz’ or ‘oomph’ mean, says that he hasn’t had the time to review each basket individually to give specific notes.

    So husband’s in a situation where the teams all agree that things need to be changed, has been given direct notes to do things like ‘make the baskets cuter,’ but has no direction on what ‘cuter’ means in this scenario. (more straw? rounder base? wider mouth? is pink inherently cuter than purple?)

    Asking for examples of what ‘cute’ means led to a general wave of the hand in the direction of the production space and saying ‘some of those baskets are cute.’ (but not which ones, nor which designers are meeting the new standards). Husband is reluctant to go around to his co-workers to ask which of them got the same notes and which ones were told they were being ‘pizzazzy’ enough. He’s also a close friend of the fired supervisor, so rocking the boat or looking too demanding could be an optics problem at the moment.

    What are some ways he can navigate this without driving the interim supervisor nuts with more questions? Is there a polite, encouraging way to say ‘can you be more specific’ without looking like he’s helpless? Or is he condemned to making his best guess and hoping his instincts are right this time?

    (The interim supervisor has a lot on his plate all of a sudden, so he’s not doing this out of malice or incompetence, he’s probably just overwhelmed. But understanding that isn’t making it any easier on the basket design team, either.)

    1. Amtelope*

      If my team were getting vague/unhelpful feedback, I’d start by meeting with the team to identify what feedback we had each received and to try to figure out what it means. It sounds like your husband is reluctant to do that, but I think that has to be the first step.

      If that doesn’t provide clarity (and I’ve experienced plenty of crazy-making “make it better!” feedback), I think the basket design team needs to propose a method for getting clarity to the supervisor. “We’re not clear on what direction you want us to go with the baskets, because we don’t have a working definition of “pizzazz” or “cuteness.” We know you don’t have time to review every basket. We’d like to provide you with some examples and set up a time to discuss the examples with you.” If he agrees, get him to review a few baskets you think are “cute,” a few baskets you don’t think are “cute,” and a few baskets that he said weren’t cute that you’ve changed to make “cuter” (take your best guess), and see if his response provides any insight into what he means.

      1. JS#2*

        I agree with Amtelope–it sounds like he doesn’t know how to articulate his feedback in a constructive way and is relying on gut-checks. If you give him specific examples to respond to, it might help both of you work out what he means. I would definitely document the conversation to CYA and avoid headaches the road if his gut tells him something totally different in the future (e.g. His gut instinct may be that pink is cuter than purple this week, but next week it could be the opposite).

        Good luck!!

  67. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    Any tips on starting an international job hunt from the US to Canada? I’m in the process for applying for permanent residency in Canada via Express Entry. While it’s still in process, I’d like to start applying for jobs. I’m very worried about how to frame the move to employers and to make myself seem like a realistic candidate to Canadian employers. Does anyone here have any strategies for applying to positions outside the US from inside the US?

    The truth is that I’m looking to leave the US largely for political reasons, but I obviously don’t want to get in to that (nor do I want to discuss politics here!). However, I’m concerned with how to frame the move to an employer. I lived in Canada as a child and loved it, but I’m an American citizen and I don’t currently have any family in Canada. I worry that as a US citizen with no Canadian ties who is still in the process of applying for permanent residency, I may not be a very strong candidate!

    1. Anon From Here*

      Biggest tip: save, save, save your money like a common Scrooge so that you can last as long as possible without a job. Canada is like everywhere else, in that people like to hire people that they know, or who are known to people they know, and it’s challenging to break into a workplace when you’re some random person, especially from another country.

      Other tips: Research the areas/cities in Canada where your credentials and experience are in demand. You’re already at a hiring disadvantage because you’re a stranger, so reconsider if you’re trying to find work in a locale where unemployment is very high. Like, maybe you want to get your Anne of Green Gables on, but there’s not a lot of jobs in Prince Edward Island for people who are Express Entry eligible.

      Put your estimated arrival date on your resume and in your cover letters. The minute you are get your permanent residency, put it clearly on your resume and cover letters that you are authorized to work in Canada.

      What are your professional credentials and licenses? Research the corresponding stuff in Canada and start the process for getting the Canadian versions ASAP. For me, this meant submitting proofs of education and licensure to an assessment body, which then told me what exams I needed to (re-)take here. The assessment and testing process for me is taking over a year. So I reiterate tip #1: Save your money and live like a Scrooge.

      Source: Canadian citizen who lived in the States most of my life and moved to Canada in 2017.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Thank you! This is very helpful. I’m getting my US PhD evaluated as part of the Express Entry process, but don’t need any professional licenses. I’m definitely willing to move where ever Canada will have me, job-wise, but that’s the tricky bit! There tend to be only a few jobs in my rather niche field (I’m an applied anthropologist), so I worry about moving to Vancouver or Toronto without a job, and then find once I’m settled and eating through my savings that the perfect job has been posted in Calgary.

        For this reason I’m starting the job hunt early and would definitely prefer to move with a job in hand than without one (my spouse will also be coming and we are applying jointly with me as the primary, as I will get more points with my PhD, but we have to ultimately find two jobs in the same place). I think you’re right though, looking in the major metro areas and saving all I can will be key.

        1. Anon From Here*

          Heartiest wishes for the best of good luck! We chose to move to an area of the country where we knew employment was a little dicier than in Vancouver/Calgary/Toronto, but we knew we’d prefer the lower rents and different quality of life in the locale where we chose to settle.

          For our household, I can’t work in [profession] until I get all my qualifications (back) in place. So now I’m in [profession]-adjacent work, pushing paper and taking phone calls instead of doing the more interesting stuff I was doing before. I’m making about half of what I was making back in the States, but it’s OK since we had a good nest egg built up and our rent isn’t outrageous … and we’re not paying, essentially, half our rent again for health insurance. Keep in mind that you may end up in a “beggars can’t be choosers” situation for a little while, like us, so don’t be too upset if you have to just get a job to pay the bills.

          1. Anonygoose*

            Yes, the job to pay the bills is really important.

            Personal anecdote: I moved to Europe from Canada temporarily for my Masters degree, but also worked almost full time in the tourism industry while studying. A woman in my program also came from Canada, but had brought her family (husband, 2 kids) with her. Her husband would only consider jobs in his field (he was a paramedic, I think), and had a really hard time finding a job. He refused to consider anything else, and wound up moving back to Canada after 6 months with one of the kids while she finished the program because they ran out of money. That seemed like a huge sacrifice for them to make when he probably could have gotten a serving or retail job without too much trouble. Don’t be that family.

    2. Eh Canadian*

      Just a couple of general comments from a Canadian that you or may not find helpful. First, most hiring managers will automatically assume an American citizen trying to move to Canada in 2018 is doing so for one of two possible reasons: their partner is Canadian (which is not your case), or the current political situation in the US (which is, in fact, correct in this instance). The problem with the second reason is that potential employers will question whether or not you are planning on staying in Canada permanently, or if you plan on only being here until the current US administration ends in 2-8 years . I’m not certain from your message which situation describes you, but I’d recommend coming up with reasons why you are excited to move to Canada in your cover letter, and to be prepared to address this question in interviews. I’d also warn you not to avoid making comparisons between Canada and the US- for example, instead of saying that Canada has less *insert undesirable trait* than America, tell them that you love that Canada has so much *insert desirable trait* without ever mentioning the US (this makes you look more interested in becoming part of Canada, and not simply wanting to leave the US).
      Additionally, we have a federal election next year, and it is quite possible that the ruling political party will change from the current centre-left (by our standards!) party to the right-wing party (again, by our standards)- will this change your desire to live in Canada? If so, please take this into consideration, if you haven’t already.
      Best of luck!

  68. Anon for this one*

    Going anonymous for this one. I filed an EEOC complaint against my previous employer this morning for discrimination and retaliation for reporting it to HR, after which I was laid off. Wish me luck.

    4. Bea*

      I’m sorry it came to this but THANK YOU for going through the reporting process. It’s best for you and your closure most of all but it may save others as well. It’s a tough decision to pull that trigger and fight for yourself. It’s stressful and unfair and I hope they drag them over coals.

  69. Tau*

    Anyone have survival tips for hotdesking? My company is moving to a flex-desk setup in the next few weeks. I am… not looking forward to it.

    1. CS*

      I used to hot desk. Did it for 6 months. Get a box and live out of it. Seriously. Try not to bring too much stuff from home. Just have the basics that you think you might need. I’m on a generic admin staff so for me it wasn’t too difficult, but it is a bit frustrating a times, especially when you come in and you have no idea where you are going to sit. Do you know if you get a seat on the day or do you know where you are sitting the day before?

        1. ThatGirl*

          The alleged benefit is having the bare minimum of desks/space needed – if two people each only come in twice a week, for instance, they can use the same desk.

          I don’t like it either, but that’s the justification. I could see it if you were remote most of the time, but it massively sucks for people who actually work in the office most of the time.

        2. LDN Layabout*

          My org is 60% homeworkers and lets in-office people work flexible schedules including wfh, aside from me and another person my entire team has at least one regular wfh day. It would make no sense for them to have assigned seating.

          But when people do come in, there tend to be enough desks to cover everyone.

      2. Tau*

        Neither! It’s a free-for-all. Rule of the jungle. First come, first served. Which could get interesting as I’m about 95% sure we no longer have enough desks for all the people so this is basically the grown-up version of musical chairs, except you’re meant to be doing work. /o\

        On the plus side, I’m generally one of the first people in in the morning so should be able to snag myself a good spot. Meetings could get interesting, though.

        “Get a box and live out of it” is probably good advice. The frustrating thing is that we had assigned seating since I’ve been at this company, so I actually do have a bunch of stuff of mine at work which I’ll probably have to lug home. This stuff includes things that aren’t really mine, such as books or plants – god knows what I’m going to be doing with those.

    3. BRR*

      This might sound dumb but voice your irritation. Unless you’re in an industry where people are out of the office 99% of the time, hotdesking is terrible and the company should know employees don’t like it. It might (likely?) won’t change anything but it’s better than a company thinking employees are ok with it because they’re quiet.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes, see several different posts above where people are disgruntled about various things but haven’t actually said anything.

      2. Tau*

        There was a feedback session on the proposed plans where I was vocal about how unhappy I was about them. I was also, apparently, not the only one. They’ve gone ahead despite that and asked us to keep an open mind. As a result, I’m being quiet about my complaints for now… but if it’s as frustrating as I expect it to be, I definitely plan to speak up about it! I am not generally one to suffer in silence. :)

        Also:

        Unless you’re in an industry where people are out of the office 99% of the time

        I’m a software developer. /o\ I spend about 90% of my work time at my desk.

        1. BRR*

          Ugh that’s frustrating. The same thing happened to me. Asked everyone’s feedback on the office and did literally the exact opposite.

        2. Rosemary7391*

          That’s … unhelpful. I have a friend with this setup, but she and her colleagues are out at clients for weeks at a time sometimes, so it makes sense. They’re already nomadic. Software developers are not!

          Have you at least got somewhere to store your laptop/other work stuff ? Or do you have to bring it all in and out every day?

        3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Ugh, that sucks. My husband has a similar situation only they have lockers, so he has a little plastic crate that has his desk stuff in it that he puts in the locker every night. Yet his desk is de facto his, because he’s there most days and does a lot of database wrangling. Perhaps your office will evolve into not-really-but-actually assigned seating?

    4. Chaordic One*

      If you drive to work, you might keep a second box full of things you might need in your car. Good luck.

  70. The Ginger Ginger*

    Just had a meeting with my boss and another team- where the other team evaluated a tool I “own” and made recommendations on improvements, and I was able to say to 2 of the 3 recommendations – oh yeah, we rolled that out this week.

    WHICH MEANS I’M DOING THIS NEW ROLE RIGHT, AND MY BOSS GOT TO WITNESS ME BEING ON TOP OF THINGS.

    Boss was thrilled. I feel pretty thrilled. I’m still on the learning curve for this new position, but I think I’m getting there. What a relief lol.

  71. Goya de la Mancha*

    I’m sick of adulting this week. Pretend money/benefits meant nothing.

    Of your actual employment (youth to current) – What has been your favorite job? Why? Was it the work? The co-workers? The boss?

    OR have you heard of a job that you wish you could have had at some point.

    Mine would have to be the local movie theatre in high school or a globally known bank teller in college. Both was a great crew of people with managers who were pretty good at balancing the whole “get stuff done and still have fun” aspect. I’m sure the time there would eventually run it’s course, but if I didn’t have to worry about adulting, I would have loved to stay in those jobs! At the theatre, the work was super fast paced, while giving time to breath occasionally (free food and movies didn’t hurt either). It was sort of mindless too, so while I could be accomplishing a LOT during a shift, my brain was getting a nice little rest from over-thinking.The bank, it’s a little more adult scenarios then the theatre – but you feel pretty bad ass dealing with a few million dollars in cash if you’re in the vault for your shift ;)

    Though I recently saw a facebook video for a doggy day care bus and I think I need to be that bus driver.

    1. Marion Ravenwood*

      I loved the bar job I had at university, for similar reasons to you. I had a great team who worked hard but were also very willing to pull together when necessary, and supportive bosses (particularly the younger ones). I also liked that it was very task-oriented and there was a set process for things like setting up/closing down etc. It definitely taught me a lot about what I wanted from my next jobs and particularly that the people you work with are often more important than the work itself for me.

    2. Afiendishthingy*

      I really loved working as a visitor assistant at a children’s museum in my early 20s. I basically paid with kids 8 hours a day. Sometimes I put down a bunch of bubble wrap in the Atrium and had a Bubble Wrap Party. It was a good time.

      1. Julianne (also a teacher)*

        Working at the children’s museum was my favorite youth job, too! Play all day, leave work at work, and my manager was phenomenal.

    3. CheeryO*

      I worked at an ice cream stand that was owned and run by our neighbors when I was in my early years of college. I couldn’t work there forever, obviously, but those summers were really enjoyable. The work was fast-paced without being too stressful, and I was great at it since I was coming from an even faster-paced fast food job. The owners were also very sweet and put insane levels of effort into building a good business and making the working environment pleasant for us. Plus, there’s just something so fun about giving an ice cream code to an excited kid!

    4. Only happy when it rains*

      Display at a brand new store. Omg. It was amazing… until it wasn’t. But most of the time, I was really, really happy & excited to come into work most days.

    5. Baby Fishmouth*

      I was a tour guide at a whisky heritage visitor attraction. Lots of free whisky, interesting work, interesting customers, and top-notch coworkers. I miss it still. It wasn’t perfect and it wasn’t sustainable for the long-term, but management really made sure we had all the tools we needed to be the most knowledgeable on the subject of whisky as we could be. Despite being a minimum wage job, we got to have an intensive training program, regular whisky tastings, and ongoing training sessions on various topics (like whisky industry statistics, new seasonal items in the restaurant, and customer service training) every few weeks. I *loved* that job.

      1. Baby Fishmouth*

        Also, my second-favourite job: I used to give parking tickets at my university. Lots of autonomy, got to be outside all day, and I got a lot of exercise. Management always had our backs (the customer is almost never right when it comes to parking wars…), but rarely did I have to interact with an actual customer, so I didn’t really have to deal with any angry people. Mostly I just loved the freedom I had with it.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I used to work in a bookstore and most of the time I really enjoyed it. I got to have lots of fun pretentious conversations about “literature” and people took me seriously when I made book recommendations.

    7. Cedrus Libani*

      During college, I worked for a tech startup. Still the best job an idiot 20-year-old could hope for, even if this cynical 30-something would be less impressed.

      I’ve heard of motivation being derived from three sources – purpose, mastery, and autonomy. I had all of that. I was a true believer in the technology, to the point where I’d decided to attend that specific college in order to have the chance to work with the people who founded this company. Given this, I had a level of mastery that was difficult to come by. So I had all kinds of autonomy, as they more or less stood back and gave me room to work. It was amazing.

      The company went kaboom, but it was great fun while it lasted. Give me a bunch of too-easy VC money, and I might even do it again.

    8. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I worked as a kind of jack-of-all-trades at the university museum while I was doing my MA. As the curator’s assistant and the only one who wasn’t squeamish and could use power tools, I did everything from bug monitoring, re-boxing human skeletons, setting up and taking down exhibits, designing exhibit materials, digging through the off-site storage to find stuff that was in the wrong place, talking with tribal representatives, and lots more. I have no idea why I didn’t change course and do museum studies instead. Even though it is also a struggling industry I bet my curator mentor would have been able to get me a job somewhere. It was great.

  72. Shades of Blue*

    Catering for a Work Group…

    I basically have $750 to feed 80 people (I’d have $880 but some people don’t pay…). Are there any food genres other than sandwiches that can work with this budget? My other idea was Mediterranean (rice, salad, falafel, and a meat, yummmmm)

      1. Shades of Blue*

        Lunch time, unfortunately. $11 budget per person, which is usually fine for going out and getting lunch yourself, but most catering I’ve seen starts at $12.50 pp.

    2. Almost Academic*

      Taco bar? We’ve made it work with catering for about 60 people with plenty left over on a similar budget before.

    3. TCO*

      The taco bar suggestion is great; I’ve used that one a lot when I have a modest budget. Soup and salad, with some kind of bread on the side, also works well.

    4. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I was going to say taco bar too. We have a place here that offers taco bar, fajita bar, or chimichanga bar and all would fit into your budget.

    5. Annie Moose*

      Mediterranean is great! We do that at my office a lot. What’s nice about it is that it’s generally pretty safe for food allergies (not a lot of dairy in stuff) and other restricted diets. And it’s so much more interesting than sandwiches.

      (plus, HUMMUS)

    6. Piano Girl*

      My husband was a high school drama teacher, so I “got” to do a fair amount of catering. I’ve done Cafe Rio/Chipotle type food for groups about that size. Usually pork, rice, beans, salad, tortillas, salsa, guac and sour cream. I’ve also done Tri-tip beef sandwiches for large crowds. When the school district decided that they didn’t want me to cook anymore, I was able to find a deli that could do spaghetti for me pretty cheaply. I did a salad and bought rolls.

  73. Marion Ravenwood*

    How do you know when you’re in not just the wrong job, but the wrong career?

    Background: I live in the UK and work in PR for a non-profit in a team of three (me, manager and senior colleague. I’m the most junior). I’ve been at my current organisation almost five years, but have worked in PR/communications since I left university in 2009 (with an eight month break to travel before I started this job).

    Increasingly I’m coming to realise that I’m just not very good at this. I really enjoy the copywriting aspect of my job, but I am terrible at pitching for articles/coverage and struggle to get pickup for my pieces. I feel like I’m just scraping through a lot of the time and suspect I’m only here because it’s too much bother to replace me. The management structure here is also quite flat, so I couldn’t progress (even if I wanted to) unless my colleague left.

    About six months ago I got a new manager, whose approach is very different (she’s from a corporate background, doesn’t believe in phone pitching etc). She’s been really helpful and supportive in the time I’ve worked with her and recently moved me onto some new work areas, which has helped me to feel a little more positive, as well as putting me on a big writing project which has been stressful in parts (getting information from people, managing someone etc) but enjoyable in others (the actual writing). I want to stick at this for at least six months and will obviously do the best I can for my new campaigns, but I suspect that it’s just me being a bad fit to the industry and this won’t necessarily fix that.

    The other thing is I’m not really sure what else I can do. My work has a couple of marketing and comms manager jobs coming up, which seem closer to what I want to do, but I think it’s a bit soon to apply given my new work areas. I’ve also thought about internal comms, and am working to support a colleague currently doing this who’s on secondment to us, but there aren’t many opportunities and those that are seem to want really specific experience. In an ideal world I’d retrain/look for something else but due to finances that’s not really possible.

    So my question is: when do you decide that your career path is wrong, and how and when to change it (or even if you should)? I’m currently of the inclination to stick with the new work areas for six months and reassess, but I also wonder if it would be better for the organisation for me to go sooner rather than later so they can get someone better.

    1. CS*

      I’ve just made the move from Admin to HR with no HR experience. I think everyone has transferable skills it’s just making sure that comes across in an application and an interview.

    2. Freya*

      What about moving into a related area in charity work eg marketing/comms?

      If your employer is a member of Charity Comms you should look into their free peer mentoring service.

      1. Marion Ravenwood*

        Thanks Freya! I hadn’t heard of the Charity Comms peer mentoring so will look into that. Must admit I hadn’t really considered marketing much before as I’d always perceived it as being quite ‘sales’-y, which is the bit I don’t like so much about PR (though I appreciate most if not all jobs have something of that sales aspect). But having seen what our new marketing manager does that feels a little closer to what I want to do (albeit at a lower level to start with) so I need to do some more research around that.

  74. DCGirl*

    The law allows them to claw the employer’s contribution to benefits such as health insurance that was paid while you were on leave, not vacation time, but the number of employers who do so is very, very low.

  75. Teapot librarian*

    Hoarder Employee called out sick yesterday when we were supposed to have our first one on one in a couple of months (we are switching around meeting schedules to make them more effective, and this just didn’t get on the calendar). He has some major projects he’s working on that are supposed to be done by the end of September, so there’s a lot to discuss. I can’t help but think that he called out specifically to avoid the meeting. I sent him a calendar invite for later today which he hasn’t responded to. I should go to his office and make sure he’s coming, but I’m feeling a bit passive-aggressive after he also missed a phone meeting this morning, and I want to be annoyed with him when he doesn’t arrive at my office. Someone please talk me into being an adult about this?

      1. Teapot librarian*

        Yes, in the sense that his work performance is all colored by his hoarding. But no, in the sense that some of the issues we need to discuss are simply progress towards deadlines, responding to emails, and the like.

    2. Drew*

      I dunno, I think waiting until a few minutes past his meeting time and then walking to his desk and saying, “Fergus, did you forget about our 1:00 meeting? Please come with me” in front of all his coworkers has a lot of appeal. But I can be vindictive.

      However, part of your meeting can now be about not missing scheduled events (the phone meeting) and a warning that this is likely to affect his employment if it becomes a habit.

      We want an update!

      1. Teapot librarian*

        He did accept the outlook invitation for the meeting, so I know that he saw it and intends to come. (As for your public calling-out recommendation, our workplace is laid out such that no one has coworkers near their own workspace. So this isn’t possible. I actually think I’d be a better manager AND my employees would respect me more if out offices weren’t spread out in the four corners of the wilderness.)

      2. Teapot librarian*

        Oh hey, guess who hasn’t come to my office, 10 minutes after the intended start of our meeting?

      3. Teapot librarian*

        Okay, update!! He showed up 10 minutes late. He missed this morning’s phone meeting because he was so busy catching up from being sick yesterday that he forgot it. He’s mad about something related to that meeting though so we had an intense back and forth on that. We started out with 15-20 minutes of him railing about something another employee did and how I took her side without hearing his side of the story and why did she come to me at all. This also included him saying that he wants people to call him if he’s sick and he’s not like me (seriously!) because he’ll answer his phone while he’s out and I won’t answer my phone on Saturdays. (Orthodox Jew here.) Then there was the issue I was copied on last week because this employee isn’t consistently responsive, and he was offended both that I was copied (not my fault, of course) and that I then checked in with him to see if he’d done it. He’s “not a child.” This was followed up by it coming to light that he is still doing something I asked him not to do, and me stating in unequivocal terms that he is not to spend work time doing it. (He can still use his own time to do it, because I can’t tell him not to, which now means that I have no authority over it because I will have no way of knowing if he’s done it while at work or not. Oops, I walked right into that trap.) Ultimately I didn’t even raise the issue that’s been lingering since April because he was so keyed up that I didn’t think it was worth it. Deep breaths, and now to document document document.

        1. rubyrose*

          Yes, document, document, document so you can get rid of him. He is more trouble than he is worth.

        2. Bibliovore*

          Yes. document, document, document. And.
          You do not have to listen to his b.s.
          Put up a hand. Ask him to put his concerns in writing.
          Do not engage.
          Document his failure to
          Follow instruction.
          To deliver work accurately and On time.
          Document the missed meeting.
          Is he doing the thing you asked him not to “at work?”
          It doesn’t matter it
          If it is “work time”or not. Be specific. Say no. Don’t give any other information. If he is at work it is work time. If it is not work, he needs to leave the building. Yes even if this is a public building.
          Document the lateness to the scheduled meeting.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            The fact that he is not doing Thing on company time might be irrelevant in some cases because he is doing it on company property. This works well if you told him no ice skating in the parking lot. It’s not going to work so well if you told him no cell phone use.

            I do agree that missed meetings and late arrivals become part of his documentation. He will push back,
            “but I was sick.” “Okay, that is fine. I will put in the notes that you were sick.” Ta Da! Now you have a written track of the numbers of times you try to talk to him and he mysteriously gets sick. And he now knows you are tracking that.

            You can also say that the two of you are not there to discuss other employees. Tell him all you will do is discuss the actions he took in that situation.

  76. SCORMHacker*

    My company is in the process of looking for a new Learning Management System and I thought I’d take advantage of an Open Thread Friday to see if any of you all use either Saba or Docebo as your LMS? I know there are some L&D folks among the AAM crowd so thought I’d take a chance and see if anyone had some experience with these and any pros/cons? We’re in the midwest (where all of our L&D colleagues seem to have gone with Cornerstone) so we’re flying a bit blind with our vetting with these two LMSs. Any thoughts you all had would be great!

    1. Anon Today Anon Tomorrow*

      I’m interested as well. We use a home grown developed LMS, but we are thinking of moving to an outside vendor.

    2. Anonygoose*

      We use Canvas, which works well. Really intuitive from both administrative and student ends!

  77. MassholeMarketer*

    After six grueling months of searching and interviews, I FINALLY received an offer on Monday and accepted it! It wasn’t about the money BUT it’s a better job in my field with a 25% pay increase and I’ll have my own office!

    My current company is pretty bummed but I told them to not offer me a counter and so far so good.

    I’m STOKED! AAM has been such an amazing community and I really feel like its a large part of how I got this job.

    2. 653-CXK*

      I interviewed with a company in on Friday (found the company on Indeed) and they’ve told me I should hear from them next week as soon as they talk to my references.

      I like the company – it’s much smaller (going from 6,000+ to less 100), it’s much different from what I used to do, and it builds on the skills of what I used to do. I told the hiring manager and team lead explicitly why I was let go (inconsistent performance issues*), and they appreciated my honesty for telling them (the recruiter said “we would have found out anyway”).

      This is one of the rare instances where I have a good feeling about the outcome. The past four months have been an adventure. Thankfully, I saved up a lot of money beforehand, and applied for unemployment benefits, so the money part hasn’t been bad. There have been several false starts – namely, going to interviews, handing them my resume, and then not hearing back from them, but there were a couple of doozies, such as being contacted by a company, setting up the interview, and then the morning of the interview, being told the client wasn’t scheduling interviews; and the other was a good interview, but the company way too far away from public transportation, and I would have spent more on taxis and shuttles to get there.

      *I speculate I was managed out – not because of work (the performance issues mainly revolved around minor mistakes I could easily correct) but because (a) we got a new director who has her own ideas about how things run, and (b) I had reached a particular salary ceiling – and management saw that as a liability rather than an advantage (I had worked 15+ years in the unit, 21+ years overall).

  78. Cat*

    How do background checks in the hiring process work? My partner got offered a job contingent on a background check. He’s gotten arrested twice–once in college for reckless driving (no alcohol, just an asshole cop who thought he was getting a drug bust when really he got a group of college kids trying to make curfew at their Christian college. he was pissed he didn’t get his bust) and a second time over 12 years ago for drunk and disorderly (someone started a fight with & beat up his friend, they happened to be at a bar and had some drinks, he defended his friend and fought back).

    The job is with a school district, though not in a classroom role. They don’t even drug test, so I’m not sure if an arrest from over ten years ago will matter to them, but he really needs this job & we’re on pins & needles waiting for the results to come back! They also called to offer him the job less than 2 hours after his interview, so they seem to realyl want him.

    So, are these deal breakers? Are any arrests at all dealbreakers or just…bad ones?

    1. Anon From Here*

      Whether something is a dealbreaker will depend on the employer’s policy.

      Maybe consider talking to a lawyer about expunging your partner’s record? That should be relatively inexpensive and could pay for itself if background checks are preventing partner from getting the jobs he wants.

    2. Talisa*

      I have seen failed drug tests result in a rescinded offer, but I don’t have personal experience of an arrest doing the same thing. I do remember googling someone I’d heard had been hired and seeing an article about his arrest. HR hadn’t known about it.

    3. Justme, The OG*

      In my experience, school district care more about child maltreatment than anything else. Those are an immediate disqualification. Whether or not your husband’s arrests will cause them to rescind the offer is up to how strict they are.

    4. Bea*

      Most checks are to find violent criminals or fraud if you’re dealing with financials. He didn’t spend time in jail it sounds like, misdemeanors tend to not matter to most. But you can’t know…some places require no record at all.

      I would tell him to be open about pops on his record. Then they’re not shocked or thinking he’s trying to hide things from them.

      My partner told his employer who drug tests he would pop for pot because he uses it medically but without a card because we’re a recreational state. They didn’t care. Others he interviewed with did and we gladly passed on those.

    5. Silver Radicand*

      I manage a valet, where trust is paramount since we are taking possession of people’s vehicles, and my inspection of background checks goes like this. Theft convictions are an insta-no unless they are at least like 15 years old. Felonies generally need to be 7 years old. Past that though, I’m mostly concerned that there isn’t a pattern or recent things. And generally I don’t even consider arrests at all unless there is something pending or a clear pattern.
      So, 10+ year-old arrests would barely even register.
      In my experience, that sort of thing is only going to really matter if the offense correlates to a key part of the job.

    6. School Psych*

      I’ve worked in lots of school districts and had lots of these types of background checks. Like someone else said below, they are mostly looking for things related to child maltreatment and abuse. An arrest that resulted in a felony conviction will also get you ruled out. They don’t care about driving conviction, unless you are going to be driving for the job. It’s usually not necessarily an immediate disqualification if you’ve had an arrest, but they would expect you to disclose and explain the situation. I wouldn’t wait for it to come out in the check. At one school I worked in the principal told staff during orientation that if we ever got arrested, our 1st phone call should be to him. Getting arrested wouldn’t necessarily get you fired, but trying to hide that it happened would. A teacher I worked with in that school got arrested for getting into a physical fight and stayed employed. We had a volunteer mentor in a different school I worked in that was very open about his prior struggles with depression and addiction and his substance abuse related arrests. I think your husband should be okay, particularly if the arrests were a while ago and he discloses and explains what he learned from those experiences.

  79. Talisa*

    I found out I was being laid off last Tuesday from a big corporate job, and immediately began networking on LinkedIn. Surprisingly, the first company I spoke with made me an offer on the spot and I am excited about the role (an advertising agency). But I had already interviews scheduled with two other companies (both brands) and decided to go on them. These other companies seemed to like me as well but are several weeks out from making offers. My question is–if I get offers from these companies after having joined the first company (the agency), is it wrong/weird to approach those companies to ask whether they would want my marketing services as being a client of the agency I joined? (I would get a share of the profit, if so). The type of expertise I have is often something brands go to agencies for, but brands also look to have it in house.

    I am feeling very overwhelmed–unexpected layoff, unexpected speedy job offer, and don’t know what’s the best next step for me. I did LOVE the culture of the agency, but it will be a dramatic cultural shift after years at large companies.

    1. RachelTW*

      I can’t see it going over well with the brands to have what they thought was a job offer turn into a pitch from a potential vendor. I would definitely ask your new boss at the agency to see how they felt about it. If the brands are sufficiently put off by that, it would harm the agency’s reputation (I would think anyway).

      1. Talisa*

        Thanks, good point. I would of course run it by the agency first! I wasn’t actually hired to pitch (it’s obviously not my area of expertise and have no experience with it, so I would definitely leave that to them.)

    2. Hillary*

      I wouldn’t do this. I’d be very turned off if what was supposed to be me interviewing a candidate turned into a service pitch (and I can unfortunately see some of my vendors trying it). It would make me unlikely to ever work with the candidate or the vendor again. It’s not a 100% dealbreaker, but it would do serious damage to their reputation.

  80. Nita*

    I’ve been trying to figure out how to deal with having two bosses on some of my projects. How it happens is, some reports are required to be signed by the department head – not the ones that are done at the beginning of a project, but the ones at the end (and sometimes in the middle) of the process. So the project starts out with someone else, and then I end up working mostly with the department head.

    It’s easy enough to cc two people on emails, but popping into two people’s offices to touch base every time something unexpected happens is kind of unwieldy. Having two senior-level bosses review the final report is doable, but if there are many smaller reports that go out before that, there’s no room in the budget for both of them to review every one. Maybe this is my fault, but eventually the person that started the project pretty much falls out of the loop. I can’t really figure out if there’s a better way to do this…

    1. Not So NewReader*

      It’s really up to your bosses to figure it out, I think that is why you are having difficulty. Take what you have here, beef it up with specific examples or situation specific details and email the both of them. Ask if there is something that can be done to streamline this process or if they have other ideas.

  81. AK*

    My new report is doing MUCH better this week, I’m not sure what finally clicked for him but this week he’s really stepped it up while I was training another new team member. I think, weirdly, feeling like he couldn’t ask questions for validation (even though he could have, I was available by email and chat the entire time) might have been the thing that helped the most, because he just had to do it instead of second guessing himself and asking for confirmation on every point. Whatever it was, I’ll take it.

    Thanks all for the feedback and suggestions last week!

    1. Bea*

      This is great news! Being self conscious and constantly second guessing yourself does lead to many errors often. Maybe he refocused himself and found his “chill” over the weekend.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Sometimes nervous people do much better when the boss/trainer steps back. I have seen this so many times in training people. I had one job where I told the new hire, I am going to stay with you long enough so that I know you understand how to keep yourself safe while doing this job. Then I am going to walk away and give you space to figure out the job. They were usually pretty happy to see me (The Supervisor) go.

  82. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    I may have asked this before, but I’m still curious about how people think about this:

    As a manager (which I am not — this is just a thought exercise for me), how should you handle employees who have different levels of willingness or ability to draw boundaries (around the work they take on, the inconveniences they accept, etc.)?

    So: Some of your employees are comfortable refusing the project that nobody wants to do (so someone who isn’t as willing/able to say no, either because of personality or various societal or organizational power dynamics, ends up doing the crappy project). Some employees raise legitimate complaints about their cube assignments (so others who are less willing or able to raise complaints end up with the crappy cubes.

    Sometimes these dynamics are the explicit result of choices by the manager (Person A is a top performer that we want to keep happy so we give her the good cube; Person B has a skill set that nobody else has so we keep him happy by only assigning him projects he’s excited about)… but sometimes it’s more passive. In either case, how would/should you handle it?

    1. Tardigrade*

      Not a manager, so maybe a grain of salt is warranted. I have certainly made my preferences for projects known, but I’ve never experienced someone “refusing” work. That doesn’t seem like a top performer kind of person to me, especially when it means someone else is always stuck with the less exciting or outright frustrating projects (unless you have something like more advanced work that new/less skilled/unproven employees can’t perform yet).

    2. Formerly Arlington.*

      As a manager, I wouldn’t allow any projects to be “up for grabs.” If there’s an assignment that two teammates are qualified to do, I might ask the top performer first to take it on (if it’s a good assignment.) The less desirable assignments would be given out based on team bandwidth and skills, not whether they were wanted or not, if that makes sense. For example, we have six people covering 12 regions. We did not give two regions per worker–we gave the worker with the more difficult region just one, and three easy regions to another worker. And we chose the worker who was most diplomatic for the difficult region. Trying to make someone happy was never part of the equation.

      I’d look at seniority above job performance for cube assignments.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed.
        I never “gave” out anything to keep someone happy. That works into such a difficult road in the long term. When we start trying to keep people happy it becomes a slippery slope into a toxic work place.

        I had people refusing to do work, so the next thing that happened was tasks were assigned, period. I used a rotating basis for tasks so no one Had To do the same rotten task over and over.

        I did have times where I asked for volunteers. But this was rare. “I need volunteers to do tasks A, B and C.” Then no one would volunteer sometimes. So I would reframe, “volunteer for A, B or C OR get drafted to some other task, pick what you would prefer.”

        The problem with the goal of keeping people happy, is that in the long run we can’t keep people happy. They have to be responsible for their own happiness.

  83. DCGirl*

    It’s proposal season for the federal government, and I’ve worked the past two weekends as well as Sunday of the weekend before that, and I’ll be working this weekend. I’m tired, and I’ll be glad when it’s over. (The federal fiscal years ends September 30.)

  84. IEanon*

    Our department shares an admin with another in the building. We lost our AMAZING admin during the summer, who’s pursuing a career that she’s more interested in. (Full disclosure: I’m still very close with her, and we see or talk to each other a couple times a month.)

    The new admin my supervisor and the other department’s head hired may not be great. She’s certainly a different personality type, which has made it difficult for some of the people she supports to adjust. For a while, I thought they were being too picky, and that they just needed to get over it and be more self-sufficient.

    Now, though, I’m hearing that she’s refusing to do parts of her job that are pretty typical and expected in admin roles, that she’s been contacting her predecessor multiple times a day to ask about things that were included in her handover materials, and has been sending people to ask me questions that she should really know the answers to. (I’m not an admin, and my department is severely understaffed, so I can’t spend time helping people find supplies and materials, look for offices, figure out schedules, etc.)

    I did not want to be involved in the search and hiring process for this position, but my supervisor insisted I give input. I flagged personality issues after her interview, but was overruled. I’ve had no direct issues with the new admin, but I worry that my involvement in the search and its outcome is going to affect the rapport I’ve built with the people that position supports, who not only dislike the decision that was made, but that I’m now having to turn away when they come to me for help.

    This is exactly why I wanted nothing to do with the search in the first place!

    1. IEanon*

      Oh, and I should contextualize:

      Personality issues that I flagged were that some of the people she supports can be challenging, and I think it takes a very laid-back, roll-with-the-punches kind of personality to work with them. Not that she’s troublesome or difficult or anything like that.

      1. Bea*

        Well she is difficult if she hasn’t used the transitional documents and refuses to do her job!!

  85. Anonymous Princess*

    I need a reality check here to see if I’m being too sensitive about an email i received from a co-worker. This co-worker is senior to me in both title and tenure, but is not my direct supervisor (though I would argue he has overstepped on more than one occasion.)

    It is standard practice that a new hire is introduced to our full team upon starting, and we recently had a part-time teapot designer start with the firm, though no email has been sent out, over 2 weeks later. Since I work at the main office, other people on my team have casually asked me who this person is, since they’ve seen her name on emails, and have been asked to add her to projects.

    So today, I sent this email: Hi [co-worker], I’ve heard from a few people who are confused as to who [new teapot designer] is and what role she is playing, and I thought it might make sense for you or [someone else from your teapot design team] to send out an email to the whole team introducing her.

    His reply: I’ll get around to it. Still determining her availability. If anybody has a problem with corporate communication, tell them to talk to me, not you.

    I immediately sent a follow up email apologizing and saying that I meant no offense or criticism, but was simply passing along something I had heard from more than one person that directly affects him, as her manager.

    I don’t know if I’m being overly sensitive because this guy, though mostly pleasant, also once screamed at the entire office because people weren’t happy about an abrupt change made to the office building without warning. He literally screamed at us like unruly children for 10 minutes, and as I had only started a few months previously, I was very ready to walk out the door and not come back.

    1. Meredith Brooks*

      Honestly, I think your coworker was too sensitive in his reply and shot the messenger a bit, though I don’t think he’s annoyed specifically with you but the fact that people weren’t coming to him about it. Which means…

      His problem, not yours.

      1. Anonymous Princess*

        Thanks. I am worried he thinks I was overstepping. I wouldn’t have said anything except the company is really bad at letting the staff at large know who from the support staff at the main office is leaving or coming on. They always make announcements for people at the program-level, but support staff is really not treated well. I am the only program-level person who happens to live close enough to the main office to actually work from there, so I know what’s going on most of the time, but most of our staff works remotely all over the country. I know I’d be concerned about getting an email from someone I don’t know asking to be added to a project.

        1. Meredith Brooks*

          I’m not sure why it would be considered overstepping. People were asking you who the new person was, you told your colleague a fact– hey folks here are asking me about the new person, so you might want to do something sooner rather than later.

          He may have been annoyed about the fact, but it’s not like you told him that he wasn’t doing his job. Additionally, the fact that you apologized to him in case he felt you were overstepping, basically absolves you from thinking about whether you overstepped.

          My advice the next time something comes up that’s about him or his department, you refer any colleagues directly to him and you’ll avoid any such situations in the future.

    2. Bea*

      I think you’re taking it too hard.

      His response seems casual and like he’s being thoughtful to tell you not to shoulder his burden of people complaining to you.

      Unless you left something out of his response…I read it very casual and with a shrug included on his end. “I haven’t because XYZ. If someone is complaining, tell them it’s my fault/issue and to talk to me direct.” it’s just not a big deal…

    3. BRR*

      In general, I’ve adopted the rule to give people the benefit of the doubt over email. Conveying tone in text is hard so I try and let things pass.

      If i was to not give the benefit of the doubt in this situation, I wouldn’t like being told that it might make sense for me to do something. But his response is kind of curt.

      But this is being incredibly nit-picky which brings me back to giving people the benefit of the doubt over email.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I’d read this as he knows he screwed up. I would have sent back an “okay” and let the rest go. Then actually tell people that he wants them to ask him, not you. Let him deal.

      Some people have brief communication styles. I would consider this email an example of that style. Unfortunately you know he can get explosive, so that can put things in a different light. However, he did draw it back on himself and take it off of you and that is where I would land with all this: “He pulled it off of my workload.” With nothing else to indicate there is a problem I chalk it up as his way of taking ownership, he’s gruff about it.

  86. Meredith Brooks*

    Jeepers, this has been a rough week with half the office on vacation. And next week is shaping up to be another crazy week. I’m exhausted and burnt out. Any recommendations for how to quickly recharge this weekend, so I’m not utterly gobsmacked and cranky next week?

    1. Anonymous Princess*

      Everyone recharges in different ways, but for me it’s a massage, maybe a pedicure, and just sitting and reading a book. Maybe going for a walk if it’s not too hot a gross out.

      My husband recharges by playing board games with his friends, and that, honestly, only leaves me feeling more drained.

    2. Rey*

      Think about what you need to be prepared for next week, and how you can accomplish that with the least work possible. For me, that would be, do you have food in the house that you are excited about eating? Do you need to take care of laundry, etc. to be prepared for next week? Do you need to spend 30 minutes picking up around the house to clear the clutter and give yourself some brain space? If you have plans that are more stressful than exciting (a party you are dreading, etc.), cancel them. Finally, think about what you can do for yourself that makes you feel more rested. I love spending weekend time on a face or hair mask (whatever homemade, beauty store, Korean thing is your jam), soaking my feet in hot water or taking a bath, or making time to sleep in or take a nap. I know some people would think about their favorite weekend cycling route or Zumba class. Whatever floats your boat and focuses on what feels good to you.

    3. Monty's Mom*

      Play with dogs. Read a book. Sleep in. Do not go out where you have to see people.
      But those are my things. I am going to do all of those things, plus laundry and cleaning (which I like because they give me a feeling of accomplishment!) myself this weekend. Good luck, and hang in there!

    4. Chaordic One*

      Even though it isn’t very much fun, you really might want to do as much as you can to get prepared for next week so as to make it easier for you. This means doing un-fun things like laundry and getting your clothes ready for next week, getting your house clean, and buying and preparing meals for next week ahead of time. I like to plan meals ahead of time and make a few things that I can stick in the freezer and then pull out, defrost and cook when I get home after a hard day.

  87. Office Supply Drama*

    My company does not like to buy office supplies, like pens and post it notes. I’m not kidding. They think we should bring in free pens from give aways, etc. I buy post it notes in bulk at a big box store, and my own pens that are comfortable and write nicely without leaking all over the place. We have a hug box of “free” pens but they’re old, leaky, some are dried up (we throw them away as they’re identified).

    Recently I realized I was on my last decent pen, so I ordered a box through “the big online retailer that has the same name as a very long river in South America”. I used cash back from one of my credit cards, free shipping, and had them sent to my office. No big deal, right?

    Wrong. Apparently the 3rd party fulfillment center omitted my name from the address line, so it was addressed to my company’s address. Two managers opened up the package, and actually said “who ordered pens, we don’t buy pens here”. They walked around asking who ordered them. Finally, they got to me, and I said, oh hey, those are mine, and actually had the nerve to ask if I used the company credit card to buy them.

    I had to explain no, I used my own, it’s my account, my money, and no, I don’t know why a 3rd party vendor dropped my name. I was admonished to make sure things were addressed correctly in the future.

    Oh. My. God. Really. I am still really miffed that they thought I would use the company card to order a $5 box of pens! And they think that somehow I have sway over addressing procedures in a 3rd party fulfillment center.

    To top it off, I use my account to get better deals/free shipping for our office space, and somehow that is OK. Maybe I need to rethink that position.

    Rant over. Just thought this was ridiculous. And they wonder why we’ve lost 6 people over the last 2 years to a competitor.

    1. Beth Anne*

      WOW! That is crazy! Obviously if you used the company card they would find out eventually…not like you hide it but that is crazy they aren’t providing their staff with the tools they need. I often like fancy pens and bring my own but that is a bit much.

    2. Hand-holder*

      Ugh. Never had anything like this at work but have had a telling off from the mailman because they missed my apartment number, but not apartment building number, off a delivery. Again, just stood there nodding during his rant thinking, ‘Yep. Sure, I have amazing powers which will ensure that they never accidentally miss anybody’s apartment number off of any order ever again. I’ll get right on that.’

    3. Monty's Mom*

      That’s nuts! But I was also afraid you were going to say that someone took all your pens, which would be super-annoying as well, and probably difficult to get them back. This deserved a rant!

    4. WellRed*

      Pretty sure at that point I d toss their crappy box of pens and then ask them for a pen. Not really, but they are ridic.

      1. WellRed*

        Also, the fact that it took two managers to open the box and then track down the $5 offender says soooo much more about your company than their office supplies policy. Oy!

        1. Office Supply Drama*

          Exactly! The time and effort wasted tracking this down (if you take into consideration what these people are paid) far exceeded the cost of the box of pens. I never knew Pilot RSVP pens were such a big deal, fine point and blue, but still…

    5. Bea*

      WTF Now I’ve heard it all

      Nobody can call my boss cheap again. I’ve always cheaped out on office supplies BUT WE STILL GET THEM. And if someone requests better pens, I do it without any fuss. Most are fine enough with stick pens but even I prefer a grade above the basic BIC.

      I’ll throw myself into a volcano before I ever chastise anyone for buying pens.

      We have to buy post its, my boss may actually live off them the way he devours the things. (His desk is full of them. I think he just feels best when he can throw a note away and check it off his list…instead of making a list…but he’s the boss, he can do whatever.)

    6. foolofgrace*

      I worked at a small newspaper once that went on an “austerity program” where paper clips etc. were rationed, and we had to rewind and reuse our IBM Selectric typewriter ribbons. Yep, this was a while ago… Paper went out of business, surprise.

  88. JBurr*

    So, joy of joys, POTUS is in town and, in fact, will be in the area where I’m interviewing this afternoon. Even better, it looks like his motorcade will be crossing my route at the time I need to be driving there. Obviously, I’m leaving extra early to try to avoid being late, but traffic is going to be super unpredictable. I would call the interviewer and just give them a heads up, but I’m working with a recruiter, to whom I just sent an email instead.

    So, potentially could I get some tales of when your trips to interviews went really, really badly, but it all turned out okay in the end? Or anything else y’all think I should do to avert disaster? My nerves would thank you.

    1. Deloris Van Cartier*

      As someone who lives around DC, I feel your pain of motorcades and how much of a pain they can be! I hope it works out!
      My last job, I took the metro to my interview and I was walking a few blocks to the office. I was coming in from out of town so I had my suitcase and had thrown flats in my bag so I could walk there more eaisly. On my way there, there was a sidewalk that was totally uneven and I tripped over it. My bag went flying and everything in it was all over the side walk, my hair got messed up, I had scratches all over and a bleeding cut on my arm. I honestly thought I had broken my arm as I was in so much pain. I shoved everything back in my bag, took a tissue and hand sanitize and tried to clean up the best I could and tried to pull myself together. Luckily my interviewers didn’t react in horror when they saw me. When I went to grab my notebook for my questions, I couldn’t’ find it as I just shoved everything in my bag and I didn’t want to look like someone who was so unorganized so I had to tell them what happened. I ended up getting a second interview (with no fall) and got the job and I was there for three years!

  89. Lelouch*

    Hey guys, kind of an unpleasant situation I’d like advice with.

    I recently started a new job, and I absolutely love it. It’s going fantastic so far. I like the people I work with, pay and benefits are great, and I’m learning a lot.

    The problem is that I saw one of the resumes for someone that my boss is interviewing for a position senior to mine, and it’s one of my old bosses. This is a very bad thing — when I worked for this guy, I found out that he was dating one of the other people that worked for him, and when he found out I found out, he tried to push me out of the job. I also caught him lying to a company I applied for later on, saying that I was fired.

    All of this means that I’m absolutely not willing to work with this Old Boss. He burned any bridges when he started telling other people he fired me.

    I need to figure out whether I should speak up, when, and how to. I know an ultimatum would be a bad idea, and I’m not sure full disclosure (that he tried to get me fired) would be the best idea either. I’m thinking of telling my boss that I saw one of the people he’s considering interviewing is a guy I used to work with, who dated his subordinates, so he should proceed with caution if he wants to talk to that guy. Any thoughts?

    1. Murphy*

      I think the relationship with a subordinate is definitely something you should mention! I wouldn’t go to an ultimatum unless you’d have to. I’d bring up the behavior worthy of mentioning and hope that your company will do the right thing.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think this depends on how you came to see the resume. If it was in the normal course of your job duties, I think approaching it up front and honestly would be the best option. If it was random and you probably weren’t supposed to see it, that makes it trickier.

      1. Lelouch*

        I was at his desk and I saw he had the resume open on his screen.

        I also interview people with him, because it’s a small department. There’s a chance that once we do a Skype interview and my old boss saw me he’d drop out or something. Or afterwards I could say something like “I worked with that guy Steve we interviewed at Black Mesa and HR had to speak with him because he was making advances on a woman who worked for him. I think he’s bad news.”

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Yeah, I’d probably wait and see if they even bring him in for an interview then.

        2. BRR*

          I try not to bring up things that I see on screens or desks. If he’s interviewed, I would say something like he dated someone underneath him and retaliated against you when you found out and let your boss do what he wants with that information.

        3. Lelouch*

          I see what you are both saying.

          Working with him again is kind of a doomsday situation to me; my last few months at that job were made miserable by him.

          My current boss (the new person we hire would be between my current boss and I on the reporting chain) has me interview everyone as well and usually sends me their resumes beforehand. So the ideal situation would be that if my boss sends me my old boss’s resume ahead of time, I can tell my current boss that this guy did stuff like date girls who worked for him, so I think it’s a risk to bring him aboard.

          I would like to avoid mentioning my involvement here. After all, I didn’t make him date someone else at work. Is that wrong?

        4. Bea*

          Your boss will find this info helpful. You’re part of interviewing and even though you’re new, he must trust you. Especially more than a guy who just sent a resume and maybe had a phone screen. Given your reaction, don’t wait or think it over too much.

    3. Binky*

      You should definitely give your boss a heads up. I’d say that you’ve worked with [ex-boss] and you’d be happy to give feedback about your experience with him, but it wasn’t positive. If your boss is interested (and she should be) absolutely tell her that he was dating his subordinates, and that he retaliated against employees who knew about the relationships. Given his actions you have serious doubts about his professionalism and integrity.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        There you go, OP. Binky’s got it. Skip the ultimatums. The nastiness he did speaks for itself, you don’t need to say you will not work with this person. The behavior stands alone very well as a reason not to hire.

        A person applied at my Old Job. I gave the app to the boss (paper apps). I told him I worked with this person and they gossiped and maligned many people. Person also brought a negative attitude to the work group, by belittling the boss and upper management. The app went in the garbage. I would not have worked with this person either, I would have left. But there was no need to say that.

        Speak up. You got hired for a Reason. Your opinion matters.

        1. Lelouch*

          Yeah. You’re right.

          People here like me a lot, which is one of the reasons why I love this job. If I said “hey Boss, I worked with this guy Steve back when I was at ACME. I know we’ve been looking for people for a while, but I don’t have anything good to say about him. He did X, Y and Z crappy things, and that was only two years ago, so I don’t think he’s changed a lot since then.”, my boss would listen to me.

          Sorry, I just mentally went back to when I was working for the crappy boss when I saw his name in the candidates list. The external check helped. Thank you.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Get a lawyer to send old boss a cease and desist letter (he is hurting your reputation by lying and saying he fired you).

      1. Lelouch*

        That’s not necessary right now.

        I worked with the old boss we’re talking about two years ago. He lied about me being fired when I was still working at that company and interviewing for other places. Back then, I investigated my options back then and considered getting a lawyer or contacting the EEOC, but once I said the word retaliation, the company’s HR stepped in and gave him some sort of official warning. The company’s official handbook also had a no references policy, but they were definitely more concerned about the potential legal case.

        Regardless, from what I can tell through LinkedIn and talking to other coworkers from this company, his career advancement at that company has stalled since then, which is why he’s looking. It’s doubtful that this dude has a extreme personal vendetta against me, since I’ve changed jobs since then but haven’t heard from him at all, or ever had a reference check ask me about that company (they go through HR and an external employment verification service). Either way, I’m sure he’d remember me, and working with him would still not be fun.

  90. BottleBlonde*

    Asking on behalf of my brother (I hope that’s ok!) and also because I’m generally curious about this. Would you ever mention a new job offer’s salary when resigning to your current manager, specifically if the new job’s salary is a huge reason (really, the only reason) why you are resigning? My brother loves his job and was not planning to leave any time soon. However, his salary is on the low end for his industry and the even more extreme low end for his degree/experience. An opportunity recently came completely out of the blue for a position in a different industry that would nearly double his salary, and he doesn’t feel that he could live with turning it down. He is nervous about resigning to his boss and is trying to concoct a made-up story about why he’s accepting the new job, to avoid sounding “tacky” or “greedy” by mentioning the salary bump. Imo, any reasonable manager would understand the true reason for leaving, and I don’t think that taking advantage of an opportunity to improve his family’s life would cause my brother’s boss to question his judgment or moral character or whatever else. Is it normal to lie about reasons for leaving in a situation like this?

    1. Murphy*

      I definitely wouldn’t make something up. I’d either be vague or tell the truth, but I think it’s useful information for the company to have, particularly because their salary is so low for the industry/his experience.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Why make something up? If asked, just say that the pay was better. People work for money, there’s nothing “tacky” or “greedy” about that.

    3. Ranon*

      “Opportunity I couldn’t pass up” is both vague and factual. If he’s moving industries the pay increase is not necessarily relevant to his current employer unless they generally compete with that industry for employees, and particularly since it sounds like they’re in no position to make a counter offer that would get him to stay.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      It’s not a social situation so he doesn’t need a white lie to protect his manager’s feelings. He can always say something like, “I love this job but this opportunity came up and I just have to take it.”

    5. Gloucesterina*

      It’s my understanding that a person doesn’t so much resign to their boss (that is, the boss can’t prevent someone from giving notice or refuse to accept their resignation) but instead communicates to the boss about their resignation. I’m sure Alison has some sample scripts for such conversations that are clear-cut and collegial without disclosing any particular reason for leaving.

      I wonder if this re-framing–that resigning isn’t a transactional thing with the boss, but more in the vein of an “Just letting you know about what I’ll be doing in two weeks” conversation–would help ease your brother’s worries approaching this interaction. Or I might be way off in terms of how he or you are thinking about!

      In any case, it’s hard to think that it will be dramatically surprising news to the company that their salaries are low.

    6. Lelouch*

      Depends on the nature of your brother’s relationship with his boss. If he and the boss were especially candid with each other, it might be helpful to the boss to know that the department or company is lowballing people and they’re losing talent, so he can go to his bosses with a case to raise the hiring budget.

      I did that at one place where I had a strong and honest relationship with my boss and I was getting a 50% raise by leaving. Unfortunately, I was lied to about the job duties and other benefits and ended up resigning from that job with no notice — extreme but honestly warranted in this case.

  91. Thankful for AAM*

    I saw the post a couple of days late, so I didn’t get a chance to engage in the comments about the silent treatment boss, but I want to extend my gratitude to everyone who participated in that discussion about workplace bullying.

    I’ve been getting the hostile silent treatment from my boss for almost 5 months now, and the impact on both my personal and professional life has been profound. Going to HR only made things worse.

    I’ve been so ashamed of how deeply this has affected me. It was comforting to read through the many comments here calling out that behavior for how awful it is and have that reassurance that no, I’m not actually crazy, and yes, it’s reasonable for one’s confidence and self esteem to be impacted when someone with that degree of power over your life is intent on making sure you leave every interaction feeling like s**t.

    So thank you Allison for posting, and to all the commenters for their insights and words of encouragement.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You are a human being having a human reaction. I can’t tell you not to be ashamed, that “fixes” no one, anywhere. Our emotions are what we get. However, you can push your shame for how you feel off to one side for the moment and use the extra brain space to get yourself out of there.

      Sometimes I think for me my deepest shame is that I did not bail ME out quicker in a toxic setting. I let my own self down. People treat us like crap that is one thing, we neglect* ourselves that is another thing. It sounds like you stood up for yourself, so here the shame could be tied to not being effective enough in standing up for yourself. Well, we can’t control the dingbats in this world. People do dumba$$ stuff on a regular basis. Sometimes all we can do is move away from the toxic humans.

  92. Deloris Van Cartier*

    I’ve been thinking about my next step after this job and one thing holding me back is my scheduling needs. I have a disease where I have to get infusions every two weeks that last about 7-8 hours and I’m too tired afterwords to do any real work other than checking emails. About 6 months ago, I changed the location of where I was getting my treatments which meant I was going to have to go on a weekday verse going on the weekends. People here gave me some great advice and luckily it made sense for my work schedule to change from M-F to T-Saturday anyways which allowed me to go on Mondays to my treatment. Even though its not ideal for me as it would be nice to go on a Friday so I could have an extra day for recovery, it worked out for everyone and wasn’t too much of a lift for my job .
    One of the major reasons I’m currently staying at my job is this schedule. I would like to find something different at a new place as there are some issues here that I don’t see changing anytime soon. Everything I think about job searching, I just stop as I figure I have the schedule I need so that outweighs a lot of the negatives but those are starting to increase quickly. As this is not a temporary thing that will only last a certain amounts of month but something I need to get every two weeks for the rest of my life, I’m not sure how to even discuss it with potential employers. I’m also concerned that if I get a flexible schedule, I won’t be able to take time off for doctors appointments or if I have a flare up which unfortunately happens more than I would like. Sorry for such a ramble, I’ve just been thinking about this for a long time and am feeling a bit stuck. If anyone has any suggestions or thoughts, I would love to hear them! Thank you in advance!

  93. McWhadden*

    So, my work is doing a cultural appreciation week and we are trying to think of ideas that are appropriate, not intrusive, but interesting/fun. Has anyone seen anything done well at their work? I know there are a million ways for it to go wrong.
    Last year we did a potluck where people brought in food from their culture (not mandatory) and it went over really well. But we were hoping to do a little but more this year.

    1. Nita*

      The potluck is perfect! Maybe you could have people volunteer to do performances (songs, dances) from their culture, but that seems like a lot of effort and you’d probably only get a handful of artsy volunteers. Another idea is a shared artwork that involves different languages. We have a tile wall in one of our offices, where everyone who wanted to participate got a tile and put whatever they wanted on it, so I’m thinking something like that.

    2. Be the Change*

      Maybe like a little…speed dating thing? People could volunteer to do a 3-minute spiel or have show-and-tell about something interesting in their culture, or something they wish people knew, and then small groups could move around the room and hear it?

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Who is driving this effort? Is it the organization, or cultural affinity groups/employee resource groups, or…?

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        What I’m getting at is twofold:

        1) Does anyone want this? Or is this just something that the company cooked up?

        2) It will be so, so easy for this to go wrong. For example: when dominant culture people (white, Protestant, etc.) talk about culture we tend to mean “culture different than mine” — because our culture is the default. So we invite Asian employees or Jewish employees to share their cultural experiences, which serves to highlight that we think of those things as different from the norm.

        1. Ann O.*

          I can only speak for myself here, but I don’t find your second point as an example of things going wrong. I am already well aware that my culture is different from the mainstream American norm. I’m happy when that social fact is acknowledged rather than denied. This has seemed to be fairly similar among my co-workers as well.

    4. WellRed*

      Potluck is fine. Anything else, just no. I don’t need to see a performance of a coworker singing his cultural song or whatever. Your culture/family/religion/philosophy/diet preferences have no bearing on how I see you as a co-worker.

    5. zaracat*

      Food has been the usual at places I work. More than that might be okay IF your workplace was one which already showed that it valued employees as people with lives outside of work and differing cultural values. Otherwise it can come as across as a diversity box ticking exercise, or worse, using minority cultures as a sort of free entertainment. Also, be mindful of the amount of work it might involve for the participants and that many people are shy/anxious about doing stuff in front of others.

  94. Anon today*

    I’m at a point of extreme anxiety with my coworker and I’m basically at a loss. We share an office space without any divider and have for about 3 years. We have the exact same job, with slightly different projects.

    She complains about EVERY SINGLE ASSIGNMENT. She calls bread and butter requests “inappropriate” and will rant about how she should not be doing it (these requests are absolutely within our job description and are, frankly, a huge part of our role). Every time someone asks her for things she will say “jesus f—– christ” and slam down her phone or whatever is in her hand. She will ask for your help on something and when you give a suggestion, she will fight you tooth and nail on why you’re wrong, to the point where she’s called me flat out stupid. The more stressed she gets, the more frequently she yells at me. It has ranged from the incident where she denigrated my work/intelligence to screaming for not sending her a link to a file fast enough to getting upset that I told a new admin that a summer Friday should be fairly low key (she was upset that I jinxed us).

    The complaining does not stop with assignments. We have busy periods where it is likely that we will work weekends. These periods are easily ascertainable (imagine you were a CPA and April 15 was on a Monday), but she continues to make plans during these periods and will rant about how her weekend is being ruined or how she will miss a rec softball game. My grandboss is not unreasonable about time off during these periods – he has given time for important weddings, leaves people on medical leave alone, etc., but they are otherwise blacked out.

    I’m a good employee, and I’ve talked to my bosses about the behavior. I’ve never had an issue with a coworker like this (they jokingly call me “the Diplomat” for how well I get along with other teams), and it feels like a personal failure that we don’t have a good working relationship. They agree it is not my issue. They have given a range of options, including occasionally working from another office, using noise cancelling headphones, walking away from her when she starts to fight me on something. They’ve spoken to my grandboss about office arrangements, and he has told them he has something long term in the works.

    I know they’ve spoken to her about the issue because she has basically stopped talking to me entirely, which is fine, but now she does the complaining about everything out loud, to herself.

    I am totally on edge all the time, and I find it is impacting my productivity and enjoyment of my work, which other than this particular issue I very much enjoy. How do I hang on while the long term solution is worked out?

    1. Loubelou*

      I manage someone like this. It’s tough.

      “It’s All Your Fault at Work!: Managing Narcissists and Other High-Conflict People” by Bill Eddy. This book has been a lifesaver for me – it’s all about working with really, really argumentative people. Don’t be mislead by the title, it’s actually far from being about management. It should help. People like this don’t realise quite how much they’re actually jeopardising their own jobs and themselves, let alone how difficult they are to work for.

      2. foolofgrace*

        I just put this on my shopping list at Amazon. I had a job interview the other day where one of the questions was how I deal with people who complain a lot. I hope I get the job but I also hope this isn’t foreshadowing of a particular problem.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      This may not work for you, but can you just….ignore her, kind of? I mean, I’m not sure I could do this either, so no judgment if you can’t. But if you treat her like an interesting sociology study, or a 2 year old throwing a tantrum (even if it’s just in your head) does that help? Can you picture her just laying on the cubicle floor kicking her feet and shrieking about NOT WANTING TO DO REPORT A. Sort of diffuse her power over your mood? You already know your boss is on your side (though, wtf boss and gboss, maybe manage this person better???? getting along with coworkers is an important part of anyjob and coworker is clearly failing!), can you just bask in the glow of the knowledge that you are very reasonable, and your coworker is very much not?

      If you are at all willing/able to handle confrontation, you could try to just call out her complaining. “Did you need something? Oh, I thought you were talking to me.” – then “Sorry, I can’t chat right now, I’m working on xyz” if she tries to engage you more. Or “Hey can you not talk to yourself so loud, it’s distracting me when I’m trying to work.”, etc etc. It sounds like she’d have a snit, but what would happen if you say these things totally reasonably and low key, and then….just turn your back on her when she starts throwing her grownup tantrum? Either without saying anything or calmly saying something like, “I’m not arguing with you; I just need to be able to work without distraction”, then turning away and ignoring anything else she says.

      Because – these ARE reasonable requests. And a reasonable person is not going to haev an issue with you making them. Obviously, your coworker isn’t reasonable so she’s going to react all over the place, but that’s not your fault. And maybe if you made it boring or annoying for her to whine all the time, it would be less satisfying for her?

      Anyway, you have my sympathy. This sounds miserable. Try not to let her get to you.

    3. Meredith Brooks*

      I think you need to depersonalize this situation. It sounds to me that part of the angst is driven by the fact that you don’t have a good relationship with this woman and her animosity towards you feels like a direct assault on you and something that you feel compelled to fix.

      You don’t need to fix it.

      If she wants to talk angrily to herself, so be it. Not your issue. Put your headphones on, take a regular daily break, get yourself a treat. Let her be as angry as she wants to be. This has nothing to do with you. I think you’ll find that once you remove yourself from what you imagine she’s thinking, you’ll be a lot less bothered by her ridiculousness.

      (Speaking as someone with a former cube mate who loathed me. After a year, I decided there was nothing I could do to change that. So I loathed her right back and just did me.)

    4. LCL*

      See, this is where my background of growing up with two parents that yelled, and then going to junior high and being constantly namecalled comes in handy. You have done what needs to be done, you reported her behavior targeted at you. Management is clear eyed about her behavior and is backing you. You have got the second best possible result-she doesn’t talk to you anymore. You haven’t failed, you are dealing with someone who, for whatever reason, goes through life this way. Nothing you can do will change her.

      You need to change your expectations and how you look at her. The following is really offensive to some people, and it isn’t really what I believe, but this is what I tell myself to get in the right frame of mind to deal with yellers. This is survival 101 for being in proximity to a yeller. She isn’t human, she isn’t real, she is of less significance than a fly buzzing around the trash, and has less of a purpose. Once you can see her as insignificant, her ranting and raving will have no effect. The hard part of this, of course, is she is human, and you must continue to treat her respectfully and courteously. She just doesn’t matter.

      1. WellRed*

        I disagree that management is backing her. They are allowing this to continue (shouting at coworkers should be a hard no and frankly, grounds for firing) with no relief in sight.

        1. Windchime*

          That’s my thought, too. Management said placating things to try to calm the OP down, but hasn’t actually done anything. OP’s management is just hoping that OP’s professionalism and good behavior modeling will make this problem somehow magically go away.

    5. Tardigrade*

      What a horrible thing to deal with, particularly the swearing outbursts and name calling. Could you ask how long the solution to your office arrangement will take? Sometimes knowing when the end is in sight can be helpful.

    6. CatCat*

      UGH! Quite frankly, your passive-aggressive ass of a coworkers is not complaining loudly to herself. She’s complaining loudly because you’ll hear her.

      “They have given a range of options, including occasionally working from another office…”

      Can you ask that this become more than “occasional” until the situation is resolved? Is work from home an option at all?

      “Boss, Cordelia is making loud complaints in our office frequently. It is impacting my productivity in X and Y ways because I am unable to focus with these loud distractions. Until this situation is resolved, can I work from [other office/home/some combo]?”

    7. Snark*

      I’m going to argue for a somewhat confrontational approach. I think you can, professionally and calmly, refuse to play games.

      “Hey, Bleminda, the slamming things and cursing is really unpleasant, can you stop?”

      “Hey Bleminda, is the complaining for my benefit or what?”

      “Well, the last time you asked for help you ended up calling me stupid. If I’m going to help you, can you be civil?”

      “Wow, ok, guess I can’t help you today.”

      1. Snark*

        “The constant stream of profanity and complaints from your side of the office is incredibly difficult to work with. If you’re upset, can you keep it to yourself?”

        1. BRR*

          Ooh I like this one. In situations like this, I love framing it as [unprofessional/unreasonable behavior] vs. me doing my job.

    8. Potatoe*

      How much have your taken advantage of the options given to you and how many of them can you extend a little further? Can you work from another office some days of the week and remotely on the others?

      From a personal perspective standpoint, can you try to think of it as being stuck in the same office with a squalling infant? The infant’s parents will come take it away soon, surely, but in the meantime she’s gonna wail and gnash her teeth helplessly and you don’t have the authority to just stuff a pacifier in her mouth in the meantime.

      A script to prompt some more immediate change might be:
      “I know [Grandboss] has something in the works, but I’m at the point where her behavior is really having an impact on my work product. Even the people I talk to can hear her slamming, cursing, complaining in the background, and I have to listen to it all day. Until we have a new permanent arrangement, can I make some temporary adjustments X, Y, and Z?”

    9. Bea*

      Since profanity and yelling is apparently acceptable to your spineless bosses, I would go with “Dude, shut the f*** up. I’m tired of your mouth.”

    10. Anono-me*

      If you can’t get a different office, get a divider and wear the noise canceling headphones. If your office won’t spring for a divider, build or buy your own. (If you are not handy, you can get one of those 5th grade science fair three panel cardboard display things.) Once you have both in place, even if you still can see or hear her, pretend you can’t. Right now she is performing to an audience, without one she will probably quiet down.

      1. valentine*

        Yes, a divider, especially if you’re facing her. On your side, hang a picture of a joyful place. Reduce the lighting, in hopes it puts her in hush mode. Tell her you’ll henceforth assume she’s talking to herself, but she can email you actionable work stuff. Be cheerful, if that would result in silence. I found Emotional Blackmail and Toxic Parents, both by Susan Forward, helpful in stopping both absorbing everyone’s emotions and assigning myself to fix them immediately. You can learn to let her problems be just that.

    11. You're in Timeout*

      Perhaps she needs an audience. If you were to silently and immediately get up and walk away from your desk for a short timeout, two things would be accomplished: you’d get relief from her behavior, and (possibly) it would extinguish/reduce her behavior because she has no audience. It may be disruptive to your workflow, but you’re already feeling disrupted– if it results in a diminishment of her bad behavior, you will have to do fewer timeouts over time.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I see you work with my ex-cohort’s sister. (joking)

      I think it’s time to go back to the boss and say, “How much longer will this be? Here is what is happening now.”

      You say you are recognized for your diplomacy. There are times where diplomacy will not cut it. Going to the boss and explaining this needs to be done in a direct manner of speaking. Count the number of f bombs you hear. Count the number of outbursts you hear. Give examples of things that trigger outbursts.

      Tell the boss that while you trust him to handle the situation, you need relief right now. You need to some how be moved away from this always angry person.

      This is basically a person who can’t do the job. People who know their work are not having meltdowns all day long like this. In order to keep yourself pulled together, tell yourself, “This is a person with many, many problems.”

      Sometimes we have to provide the boss with words to help them work through the situation. Here is what I would provide the boss, “I have always heard that what we are being compensated for is our willingness to get along with others and our willingness to do the work. I see NEITHER thing happening here. She is not willing to get along with others and she is not willing to do the work, as even certain regular tasks send her into a rage.” You might ask, “What if everyone behaved this way? It would sink the company, right?”

      1. zaracat*

        I would second being explicit with your boss about the language co-worker is using. My experience has been that seeing the profanities matter of factly spelled out in writing or hearing them from the mouth of the “reasonable” worker shocks the boss into doing something in a way that using euphemisms or vague references in your complaints does not.

  95. Be the Change*

    My husband I work for the same organization. He’s had a very disappointing experience, I’ve had amazing opportunities.

    So…he has essentially been demoted. The powers that be are tinkering with organization, and his boss now has an underling to whom he will directly report. It’s not exactly personal, it’s a reorg, but it demonstrates just how much they don’t give a rat’s ass about his program — he should be reporting directly to a VP, trust me on this. Even if it wasn’t meant as such, it’s a big fat loud fart in his direction, and if his morale and motivation were low before, now they are in the negative. He’s nearing retirement age, so finding a new job is not a viable solution.

    And this was done to someone else too, only a little worse — that person, who was at the director level, was told, “We’re eliminating this position. Clean out your office. Back to the Teapot Polishing Bench for you.” No discussion, no warning. In our line of work it’s considered the height of bad form to make giant decisions about departments without even talking to the people in them.

    Finally, we just lost a very valuable employee because others in her department picked on her. She was recruited by — well, let’s say she was doing helpdesk at a local accounting firm and Google called to invite her to apply. She’s a woman of color and the worst offender was a white dude who was obnoxious in ways that you couldn’t really call out but were clearly due to his asserting his perceived position of superiority. Seriously, we lost someone good enough to be at “Google” because people were *mean* to her? Shows what we’re made of, I guess.

    I am pretty tolerant and try to come up with best-case explanations, but now even *I* don’t feel like I want to work for this leadership or with these people any more. I really, really believe in our mission, but we’re not living it as an organization very well. I have a great job with an awesome situation and super pay. But today… maybe I should have called in sick and tired of it.

    Help…?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Leave. Both of you.

      The company has built themselves a house of cards instead of a company. Extract yourselves, remember you both have your future financial security to think of. So far you have had a good experience personally and it is others around you who are having a bad time of it. All that says to me is that your turn will come. They will do to you what they have done to these other people. I have never seen this fail to happen. They are showing you who they really are, it’s okay to believe them.

  97. Soda Police*

    This is a complaint with no solution/plea for sympathy.

    I am the office manager in a small office (about 15 staff members). We have a large fridge in our office suite. We use the top shelves to store soda, juice, snacks, anything really, that is available for any stuff member to eat/drink, or to offer to visitors. This is purchased by the company for this purpose. The bottom shelf shelves are for staff to store their personal lunch/drinks/snacks. There are signs on the outside and on the inside of the fridge that say the top=for anyone to take, and the bottom=storage for personal food.

    We have a staff member who has been here for about 6 months. It has been brought to my attention that she has been upset that her personal soda has been disappearing from the fridge. Her supervisor realized she was unclear about the top shelves/bottom shelves system, and had been putting her soda on the top communal shelves, and other people were then taking it. The supervisor felt the staff member was still unhappy, and brought me in as the office manager.

    In our conversation, the staff member repeated that she was hurt and disappointed that someone took her sodas. We (the supervisor and I) went over the top shelves/bottom shelves distinction, the staff member said she did not know that, but would be aware going forward.

    I asked if she was able to replace her missing cans of soda with cans of soda from the communal stock. For example, one day she brought a can of Diet Pepsi and someone grabbed it. She of course is welcome to take another, free, can of Diet Pepsi from our endless supply of free Diet Pepsi. She said she could do that. She still seemed unhappy.

    I offered to reimburse her, from petty cash, for the amount of her sodas that were taken from the fridge. She gave me a number (reasonable for twelve cans of soda) and I gave her the reimbursement. She still seemed unhappy.

    At that point, I don’t have any more options to offer her, so I asked “is there something about this that you still feel is unresolved?”

    She said “well, yes. It’s just that … someone took my sodas.” and then she sighed a lot.

    1. Tardigrade*

      You did more than was necessary. Almost seems like this person just wants to be upset about it at this point.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Okay, but… how does she know someone took hers if there are multiples of the same beverage on the same shelf?

      1. Annie Moose*

        Eh, if hers were in a box or were set on a particular side of the shelf or whatever, she could easily tell.

      2. Soda Police*

        I’m not sure exactly (I didn’t want to treat her missing soda like a Law & Order level investigation) but I’m imagining a situation like there were 4 Diet Pepsis on the shelf, she added hers in the morning and then at some point someone else in the office offered drinks at a client meeting and all 5 Diet Pepsis were taken. LOL in my post I said it was an “endless supply of free Diet Pepsi” but unfortunately it’s not a magic fridge that replenishes itself so she probably saw that all the Diet Pepsis were gone when she went back later that day? But our receptionist does in fact restock as needed, so there would have been more Diet Pepsis most likely within 24 hours.

        And, depending on what’s available, sometimes this is a mix of cans of soda, mini cans, and bottles, so it’s also possible that she put in a can, and all the other Diet Pepsis that day (available for her to take freely!) were bottles, and I KNOW some people really have a strong preference for cans v. bottles, but still, if a person’s preference is that strong, that’s why we have a “personal beverages” shelf.

    3. LCL*

      Sympathy sympathy sympathy here! I have found that some people will get their instructions from written material such as signs, labels, and memos. And others prefer to be told verbally. For both kinds of people, it isn’t real until they have received the information in their preferred way. Email is an interesting hybrid because to some of the verbal people, email is just another form of verbal communication. If you can get them to log into their network account.

      True story that happened this morning. One of my coworkers told me about an issue that he missed. He said previous coworker had posted a well written tag about the issue, and he saw the tag, but he didn’t read it because, well, he just didn’t. He read it afterwards, though. Now you know your six month employee prefers to be told things, so it’s all good.

      1. Amtelope*

        I … don’t think it’s all good? You don’t always get the option of being told things verbally at work. Logging in to the network at the start of work, reading and responding to email in a timely fashion, and reading documentation written by your coworkers are all basic office expectations as far as I’m concerned. (Your coworker saw the tag and CHOSE not to read it? And didn’t face disciplinary consequences? That’s mindblowing to me.) Unless you’re accommodating a disability, I don’t think it’s normal or necessary to repeat information that’s clearly provided by signs and labels verbally as well.

        1. LCL*

          …the group of workers I am speaking of do not work in an office. I get your point, but they also have to work with tools. My whole industry has a long tradition of information not being written down, our group is considered the odd one because we do use more written documentation than others in the field.

          1. Amtelope*

            I think that’s unlikely to be a similar situation to the one being described, then, which is clearly in an office setting. I think the norms of professional offices (as opposed to skilled trades or manual labor or service industry jobs) are that information is often communicated only in writing, and you’d better read everything that’s sent/posted/made available, or you’re quickly going to be out of a job.

    4. Amtelope*

      I wouldn’t have gone this far in catering to this employee’s feelings. I think it would have been enough for her supervisor to say, “It sounds like you missed the signs on the fridge. The upper shelf is communal, so any drinks you put there are OK for people to take. If you don’t want to share your drinks, be sure to put them on the lower shelf. Sorry for the mix-up!” If she then won’t stop complaining about others’ behavior after it’s been explained to her that she’s the one who made a mistake, that’s a performance issue that needs to be addressed.

    5. Hand-holder*

      I imagine there’s something more going on with her. Possibly projecting own experiences onto her but I remember at an ex-job somebody took my personal mug. It wasn’t particularly precious to me and it was a communal kitchen with an element of ‘everything is up for grabs’ to it BUT I still feel upset about it because it came at a time when I felt my manager was playing favourites with a co-worker. So something which would have been a minor annoyance turned into something I still remember and get upset about several years on.

      That being said, it’s on her to name that annoyance if something bigger is bothering her, not on you to try and guess what’s wrong.

    6. Bea*

      Some people suck. She’s not a bad person but she’s certainly unreasonable to put it nicely. You bent over backwards and her pity party continuing is simply pathetic.

      I would just ignore her whimpering. Its been paid for and she has access to soda. What a miserable thing to be bent out of shape over.

    7. Koala dreams*

      I feel with the employee and you too, sometimes it’s the smallest things that people (including me) get stuck on. I actually find the best solution is simply not discussing the issue any more. I usually get over these things if I’m let alone. It takes longer time for me to get myself together if people are set on dragging the small thing on and on and on. I can’t just logic myself to suddently not feel disappointed or annoyed or whatever.

      Just let her be, and the next time you know to not spend too much energy on this kind of thing.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      Is she also missing a red stapler? I mean, I remember when someone stole my entire bottle of soy sauce out of a communal fridge, when I would never have noticed if they just used a little, and that was like 8 years ago. It’s annoying when someone takes your stuff. But I’m not still moping and sighing about it. And she was able to replace a taken soda with the exact same kind, without any extra effort or time on her part, AND got reimbursement for a 12 pack.

      It does seem like it has to be more than just the soda.

    9. BRR*

      First, I want to work there because I want free drinks and the fact you reimbursed her because she didn’t read the signs is much kinder than any place I have ever worked.

      I came to a realization that some people would only be happy with the solution of going back in time and preventing the issue for ever happening.

      1. Bea*

        We have free drinks. It’s how I knew this place is pretty cool. I came from a hellhole that was too cheap for coffee or a water cooler, so yeah free drinks are my favorite perk lol

      2. Soda Police*

        Yes! Thank you, that is a perfect way to frame it — what she wanted was to go back in time. I might start adding “I cannot go back in time” to any conversations like this.

    10. Someone Else*

      She sounds like an unobservant unreasonable person. What does she want? You to somehow figure out who precisely took her specific misfiled sodas? Whoever did didn’t do anything wrong. She’s the one who put them in the “everybody take some” spot so it’s not like there is unresolved justice or anything to say to the taker. She’s either unpleasable or intentionally obtuse. She makes no sense.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      She’s not concerned about the soda. She is concerned about something else. This is why you guys are unable to console her. You could give her a tractor trailer load of soda and she will still not be happy.

      The next time she says something I would say, “Mary, we have been over this. You have gotten your solution on this one. Why does it continue to be a problem?”

      If she mentions it again after this you can say, “Mary. why don’t you tell us what is really concerning you?”

  98. dangit nelson*

    How do you deal with a constant Negative Nelson in the office?

    One of our newer support staff employees (been with us about 5-6 months now) has lately been a constant stream of doom and gloom about our company and grousing about his assignments. It’s true that in the few months he’s been with us, we’ve had a lot of turnover and illness, and that our company itself is very fast moving with things changing all the time– and when we hired him, I thought we’d made that clear. He expresses constant… anxiety? doomsday predictions? that this company won’t last, complains that he and his role and contributions aren’t acknowledged or understood, complains when procedures change (which they do all the time), complains when he’s given a new task at any level and then switches tack immediately when he sees our reactions, all like “No, it’s fine. I can do it.” He has a hard time multitasking and expresses a lot of anxiety when anyone wants him to do multiple things at once (for example, process a stack of documents while being available to pick up phone calls.) It makes it hard to give him stuff, because the rest of us are all busy and don’t want to deal with the pushback.

    I don’t know if it’s relevant, but he has mentioned having difficulties with anxiety and having panic attacks at work (unclear if it’s our office) before, and made oblique references to not being neurotypical. I don’t speculate further on his personal stuff, but the anxiety definitely feeds into this cycle of negativity and always wanting reassurance and kudos that we aren’t giving him because A) we’re his coworkers, not his personal cheerleaders and B) we’re all busy working.

    He doesn’t have a clear supervisor– I mostly assign him stuff, but I don’t think I have disciplinary or authoritative standing over him other than in seniority and taking on higher level tasks. I’ve had the unkind thought that if me and all the other team members just call him out on his constant anxiety mongering, keep giving him (perfectly appropriate) tasks that we know he won’t want to take on, and don’t reassure him when he’s seeking reassurance, maybe he’ll decide to just leave? But that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I’m also at the point where I’m going to be talking to HR about it (for refusing/turning down/constantly complaining about tasks he should be able to handle), but in our day-to-day work, do you guys have any recommendations on how to make dealing with a negative person less aggravating and more just “roll off my back?”

    1. Snark*

      I think it’s worth having a chat with him. To the extent he does have a supervisor, you’re it, and I think you’ve got the standing here to challenge him – it’s affecting your work and your ability to work with him. I think you could say something as strong as, “This level of pushback from you when I task you with work or when a procedure or priority changes is making it incredibly difficult to work with you effectively. If there are significant conflicts or competing priorities, I of course need to know that, but refusing taskers and griping every time anything changes is exhausting to deal with all the time.”

      And no reassurance, no padding. Whether he deals with anxiety or whatever, that’s his problem to work through.

      1. dangit nelson*

        That’s a great script– precise and professional and to the point, and I really appreciate that! I know I do my best to be professional and warmly friendly with him, partly because OF COURSE, but also because I feel like any hint of ~less than friendly and warm~ will get an anxiety reaction. And it just makes me want to say true but unproductive criticism like “Why would you say this?” “You’re being ridiculous.” etc.

        1. Snark*

          And maybe it will get an anxiety reaction. That’s too bad. But it’s also his problem; he can’t hold his feelings hostage against negative but constructive feedback. He may spin out, and you can be compassionate about that, but it does not need to stay your hand,

    2. Amtelope*

      Someone needs the authority to manage this person. If you don’t have that authority, I think you need to talk to HR to find out who his supervisor actually is, or to get permission to act on this yourself.

      If it turns out you are his supervisor, I would be really specific about the behavior that needs to stop: “When I give you an assignment, you need to start the assignment without complaining about it.” “This job requires multi-tasking, so when you’re covering the phones, most of the time you’ll need to be doing other work as well. If I give you documents to process, it’s not OK to say that you can’t do that because you’re covering the phone. You need to be able to do both for it to make sense for you to stay in this role.” “We have to change procedures fairly often. When a procedure changes, it’s fine to ask questions to make sure you understand the new procedure, but it’s not OK to complain that it’s changed or say that you want to keep doing things the old way.”

      If it turns out that you don’t have authority to manage him and neither does anyone else … my sympathies, your company is handling this terribly. All I can suggest is relentlessly redirecting the conversation back to the tasks at hand and ignoring anxiety-spiraling or complaints: “Yes, the procedure has changed. I’ll let you get started.” “I can’t talk right now. I’m busy doing X, and you need to work on Y.” Etc.

      1. dangit nelson*

        I’m just envisioning running using these scripts to address his complaints, and I know for a fact that his response is going to be a passive aggressive “Okay…. I don’t know if that’s possible because ABC and XYZ, but…. okay…..”

        And honestly, that’s better than a litany of complaints, so I’ll definitely make some use of these, thank you!

        1. Amtelope*

          It may not work. Honestly, from your description, this employee may need to be fired. But assuming you don’t have the authority to do that, it’s worth trying to give him feedback about this, and I think the more specific you can be about the behaviors, the better.

    3. Anonymeece*

      I’m not sure how well it would work with someone you don’t directly have supervisory power over, but I had a similar situation with an employee who was SURE that his department was going to be closed. I repeatedly reassured him, but as a newer manager, I let more slide than I should have. We actually lost someone because apparently his doomsday predictions convinced another, really good employee, that they were all going to be laid off. Learn from my mistakes: don’t let it get that bad!

      You need to talk to him, and I would say something like, “You’ve been very negative lately about the company not lasting, etc. Is something going on?” (Wait for answer; if he says he has problems with anxiety or things, then you can be sympathetic, but also continue with the following script) “I’m sympathetic to that, but the negativity hurts morale and can have real ramifications on the company. You don’t need to be Pollyanna, but we need XY and Z from you.”

      1. dangit nelson*

        That’s a great script, thank you! Mostly I’ve been ignoring his doomsday statements, but yeah– all of his concerns do add up to really hurt morale, even if it’s just in plain annoyance.

  99. SkyePilot*

    We so often see examples of bad coworkers on this site that I wanted to brag on one of mine for being super sweet.

    Right now I am in the middle of some really gnarly morning (ha! all day) sickness and my cube mate surprised me on Monday with a care package of oyster crackers, ginger ale, and mini cans of coke. As this has pretty much sustained me the entire week I can’t believe my luck in having such a kind and thoughtful co-worker!

    1. Emi.*

      That’s so nice! At first I thought they gave you oysters to help with morning sickness and I was like BUDDY NO THAT’S THE OPPOSITE OF HELPFUL

      1. SkyePilot*

        This made me laugh so hard! Thank you :)

        Also, even if they were safe to eat the thought of that texture right now….HWURK….

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Awww, that is sweet!

      Also, I would highly recommend David’s Brand “Super Ginger” tea. It’s a decaf blend. Hope it passes soon though!

  100. Interview clothing choices*

    I held interviews this week. One of my candidates arrived to the interview in leggings. LEGGINGS.

    I don’t have anything against the wearing of leggings in public. They’re comfortable, they can be cute, great. But in general, if this is a great outfit to wear to go grocery shopping or out to the movies with your friends, it is probably not a great outfit to wear to a job interview.

    Am I being too strict here?

    1. Murphy*

      I am not a fan of leggings as pants…I realize that I’m in the minority, and I’m usually not phased by people wearing them at all. But unless it’s a casual environment, I don’t think they’re appropriate for an interview as a substitute for pants.

    2. GetOffMyLawn*

      Nope. I was starting to think maybe context is important here, but really…no. If the person is fresh out of school, they should have thought to Google “What to wear to a job interview” – if they do have experience then there really isn’t an excuse. Even in a casual industry, there is still an expectation that you dress up more than necessary for an interview.

      In a similar vein, we just had a couple of guys come in for tech-related positions with man-buns. Again, don’t really care if you’re a dude that rocks long hair, but if you’re going in for an interview, wouldn’t you try to groom it to look like you actually tried instead of just rolling out of bed???

        1. Morning Glory*

          Yeah, I’m curious whether the manbuns were just messy, or whether you mean the hairstyle itself is inappropriate?

          What would be a more appropriate hairstyle for a man with long hair going to an interview?

        1. Myrin*

          Yeah, I’m not seeing the conncetion between “bun” and “look like you [were] just rolling out of bed” – if anything, I’d think someone having done nothing at all with their hair but just wearing it down has the bigger potential to look like you just rolled out of bed.
          (Admittedly, I’m biased. I might not be a man, but I have my hair in a bun at least 80% of the time – it’s the hairstyle people associate with me. It’s also definitely the most elaborate and extensive way I wear my hair, so it’s actually the direct opposite of “just rolled out of bed” for me.)

          1. Emi.*

            A man bun is usually just a little topknot in my experience, so maybe it’s too much of a messy bun?

      3. Snark*

        What’s wrong with a man bun? Would you also throw that kind of shade at a woman who interviewed with a bun? It’s a relatively common and practical hairstyle among women.

      4. GetOffMyLawn*

        Unlikely anyone will see this but…

        @ Snark – The shade is not thrown at the bun. It is thrown at the MESSY bun *for an interview*. Also, yes, would throw shade to either gender regarding this. Once you’re hired, who cares. I just personally feel a quickly thrown up bun on either gender adds a tic to the “hmmmmm” column. It certainly isn’t a deciding factor for either gender, but it does add to the overall impression of neatness and attention to detail, especially in the slightly more formal environment we work in.

        In our field, it isn’t common for men to have long hair. My personal opinion is that if you are interviewing, no matter your gender, you want to look as sharp as possible. These guys both just threw up their hair in messy buns which, again, regardless of gender, seems like something you’d want to take more time on *for an interview*. This was also combined with a really ill-fitting, wrinkled suit on one and the other had some pretty crazy facial hair as well. For the record, both were hired, but I do know that our recruiter was taken aback by the first candidate since he was more clean cut in his LinkedIn picture and the second they told would have to shape up the facial hair before starting.

        Again, personal opinion, but if you’re a guy and you have long hair, maybe a more slicked back bun without fly-aways would look more professional for an interview? (@Morning Glory)

        Tl;dr – it doesn’t matter what gender you are, why not try to look as sharp as possible for an interview? Better to overdress than underdress. Gender-neutral-neat bun = quick win for looking more polished.

    3. Triplestep*

      My first reaction is to stay you’re not being too strict, but I guess it might depend on the job.

      Also, I recently saw a group photo of college interns on Linkedin, and about half the women were wearing leggings and short blazers. If this is what is being marketed to them as “office attire” then that should probably be taken into consideration. It can’t be an accident that half a dozen women in their early twenties were all wearing the same “uniform” to work.

      1. Murphy*

        Yeah, I see a lot of this kind of thing in photos. Just wearing a blazer over something does not make it office appropriate!

        1. Triplestep*

          Agree, but I think some slack can be cut to inexperienced young people who are gleaning from fashion blogs what is office-appropriate. Once they have the job, they can be coached on work wardrobe.

          My daughter came home from college during her last semester for a job interview. She brought her “nicest outfit” which would have been great if she was going out to eat at a good restaurant. I took her shopping. Not all inexperienced interviewees have me for mother!

          1. Interview clothing choices*

            I really wish more schools would teach basic job interview skills. I took a class called “Business Communication” my senior year at university, and it was fabulous for this. We did a whole unit on job interviewing, including how to choose your clothes, how to find good practice questions, what makes a good answer, what hiring managers are trying to learn through some of the most common questions, all of that stuff. It was one of the most valuable courses I ever took.

    4. Cousin Itt*

      No, you’re not. And I say that as a member of Gen Z. Smart black jeans, maaaaaybe, leggings, absolutely not. Unless this is a literal child applying for a very casual retail/waitressing/fast food type job? But even then they should be wearing jeans at least.

    5. SoSo*

      Nooooo no no. As someone who will wear leggings 24/7 given the chance, even I know that’s so not appropriate attire for an INTERVIEW. I’ve even worked in an office that was casual enough for leggings with tunics or long sweaters, but I would never ever ever consider wearing them to an interview.

    6. Rey*

      I’ve had student applicants show up wearing everything, so I have made sure that the job posting specifically mentions professionalism and business casual attire. I feel like that is the most effort I should have to put on my part, and then they are responsible to prepare appropriately. But seriously, for a job as a front-desk receptionist, students have shown up wearing graphic tees, torn jeans, and casual shoes. It blows my mind and makes me wonder if they haven’t taken any initiative (a basic Google search of business casual should address this) or if someone in their life told them this is acceptable.

    7. Bigintodogs*

      No. I wear leggings a lot, but never to an interview (unless they were under a dress). Yes, it depends on the company culture, but I still think an interview would not be the place to wear them even if they company was laid back.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      Leggings under a long tunic or dress, I could see being okay if the office is casual. (I wouldn’t do it myself, but I could see it not being any sloppier than t-shirt and jeans as interview wear.)

      Leggings as pants? NOPE, unless you’re interviewing for some kind of athletic instructor position and will be giving a demo class or something.

      Man bun tied back neatly? Fine. Low pony tails/buns are also fine on women when they’re done neatly.
      Messy man bun? Not any more okay than messy bun on a woman.

    9. AnotherLibrarian*

      For me it would come down to the job they were interviewing for. For a professional position, than no leggings, ever. Interviewing for retail, waiter or something that isn’t professional than I would judge the whole outfit.

    10. Chaordic One*

      No, you’re not being too strict here. Unless the candidate is vastly superior to the others, this would be something that would be a deal breaker.

  101. Triplestep*

    As a finalist for a job opening, how long do you wait before checking back in by email, and what language do you use when you do?

    I had a phone interview with the hiring manager, then came in for an in-person with him, then a meeting immediately following with two would-be peers. Another week later, I went in for two back-to-back interviews with people on a related team with whom the person in this role would work fairly often.

    After the first two interviews I heard from them the next day to set up the next round, so not hearing anything for two weeks feels like a long time when it’s really not. I wrote individual and personalized thank you notes to each interviewer (two to the hiring manager for the two interviews with him) so they know I am interested.

    I noticed some new job postings for new roles in the same organization that are higher than the role I was interviewing for, and they are not on the current org chart. It’s not a complete surprise that they would have re-orged a bit (I knew there were vacant roles higher up in the organization) but this, too, could hold things up much longer than two weeks.

    At my last round of interviews, I did not see or talk to the hiring manager, so I could not ask about next steps. So how long would you wait? I am proceeding with my search and don’t have an offer now, but might soon based on conversations I had with the owner of another business.

      1. Triplestep*

        I am proceeding with my search (in other words “moving on”) and don’t have an offer now, but might soon based on conversations I had with the owner of another business. In that case I would certainly follow up.

    2. BRR*

      If you have another offer but this is your first choice I would reach out but in general I don’t really think candidates need to reach out. If they want to hire you, they likely didn’t forget about you. Plus it’s summer so everyone is out.

  102. Almost Academic*

    Two questions:

    1. Suggestions for a practical bag? I have a 15.4-inch laptop that I have to cary on walks up to 20 minutes across campus, so I’m thinking a backpack. But, I would love it if I could find something that would also convert into messenger bag / be sleek and practical for conferences and clinic visits. Neutral colour like black or gray preferred. I’m willing to put some investment into one that will last for a long time and be comfortable. Suggestions of ones you’ve loved or think are versatile and appropriate?

    2. I’m attending my first hackathon in a few weeks- tips for a newbie? It’s small (~75 people) and focused on data science. I don’t have a strong background in this yet, as I’m still learning, but I want to get the most I can out of the experience in terms of building skills and making connections. Also, I have no idea what to wear. Thoughts, tips, or experiences?

    Thanks!

    2. Anon From Here*

      Unclear from your post whether you identify as female, but if so I suggest searching the Corporette archives for work bags and professional-casual wear.

    3. Snark*

      I’ve got two bags I really like: a North Face Kaban backpack, which is incredibly sleek and great for travel, crowded areas, and the like, and a Patagonia Black Hole Pack, which is bulkier but a great gear hauler. Mine is orange, but they carry black and dark blue. The Kaban has a handle and and is just structured enough that I can carry it in hand if desired.

      I, after a long time trying to make them a thing, just can’t even with messenger bags. They’re just awful to carry.

    5. Llama Wrangler*

      It seems like the backpack to tote bag convertible bag is getting pretty popular. I was just looking and Timbuk2, Chrome, and maybe Thule all have some that seem stylish and practical.

    6. periwinkle*

      If you’re ready to spend the money, Tumi has bags which convert from backpack/crossbody (Jena backpack) and backpack/briefcase (Three-Way Brief). Tumi is not cheap but they’ll last this side of forever.

    7. moql*

      I have a grey osprey laptop bag that is amazingly comfortable. Doesn’t convert to messenger, but it had a top flap instead of zip so it’s almost as easy to grab things out of. I think with a brighter color it would look to outdoorsy, but the grey is neutral enough that I have taken it to professional conferences without a problem.

    8. just peachy.*

      If you identify as feminine, I recommend Henri Bendel’s ‘jetsetter convertible backpack’: https://www.henribendel.com/us/designer-backpacks/

      They are definitely on the pricier side, but I’ve had mine (which I got during a really good black Friday sale) for a few years and it’s still as good as new. I get compliments on it all the time, and it’s functional but also stylish and sleek.

  103. k.k*

    How much notice do you need to give if you’re leaving a new-ish job?
    I’ve been at a job for 3 months and it has been a terrible fit since day one so I am job hunting again. I’m still being trained on things and there is only one project that I’m solely handling, but someone else knows how to do it (the person that just trained me) and there are very clear procedures documented. I don’t feel like I have enough loose ends to warrant 2 weeks. While I don’t want to burn bridges, it’s not likely I’ll run into anyone from this job again soon since I don’t want to work in this industry (part of the reason the job is a bad fit). I hate this job and everyday is miserable. I don’t want to be here any longer than necessary. After 3 months, how munch notice is required? And what’s the cut off? I don’t know how soon I’ll find another job, what if it’s 4 months, 5, etc?

    1. foolofgrace*

      Prevailing logic dictates that you don’t quit your job until you’ve found its replacement. Do you have enough money to cover the bills if you have to for five or six months? It can take that long to land a job; I’ve been looking since May.

      The norm is to offer two weeks’ notice. Period. They may not take you up on it, but it’s politic to offer it. And though you don’t plan on being back there, you never know who-knows-who that could affect you in the future, not to mention getting a reference.

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      Just to be safe, offer two weeks, but also say that you can leave earlier if they deem it necessary.

  104. Tee*

    I think the answer to my question is probably going to be “no, don’t don’t do it,” but I am going to ask it any way because I am curious.

    As part of my master’s degree program I will be doing a practicum in the fall for 100-hours. I managed to arrange it and meet with my supervisor this summer and it was all smooth sailing UNTIL I couldn’t get a hold of her to submit an “agreement” form to the professor who supervises our practicum course. I knew the supervisor was going on vacation for the first 2 weeks of September, but beyond that I didn’t think she would be gone so early. So, I just assumed she left on her trip. The professor didn’t have a problem with her not signing the agreement yet, because I forwarded my schedule to him. That was 2 weeks ago. Anyway, the manager of that org. contacted me yesterday and said she re-assigned me to another supervisor because my original supervisor will be away from the library until the end of September, so she can’t supervise me. I’m meeting with my new supervisor next week to get everything signed, so my question is… is there ANY WAY I can ask what’s going on with the old supervisor? I know it’s not my business, but I am just curious… especially because it’s just very mysterious. I’m assuming I probably shouldn’t ask because it’s not my business, but again, I’m just curious.

    1. PB*

      I would advise not asking. If they didn’t tell you outright, it’s probably because the old supervisor doesn’t want the information made public. At most, you might just say, “I hope everything is okay with Old Supervisor!” and leave it at that.

      1. Murphy*

        I agree. I wouldn’t ask. I probably would say “I hope everything is OK with X” and be OK with not getting an explanation.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Don’t ask. It’s not your business. And it won’t look good if you pry. Leave this one alone.

  105. Piano Girl*

    My husband recently retired as a high school drama teacher. He would like to eventually teach at a collegiate level, and is working on putting together his CV, along with written references. His past principal stated that she would be happy to write him a letter of recommendation back last May. At this point, she has not done it. School is back in session and he has reminded her through email at least once. What else should he do? Remind her in about a month? Visit in person?
    Any advise would be appreciated!

    1. TeacherNerd*

      I’d follow-up with a quick phone call or e-mail, saying something like, “I know how busy you are this time of year, but [reminder details], and it would be helpful to have this reference by [end of next week or some time that seems reasonable]. If you don’t feel you can manage, I really understand, but would like to know so I don’t keep bothering you.”

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I wonder if this is a situation where you can draft the letter yourself and provide it. Encourage her to edit if she wishes but also okay to just sign and return.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      As someone who works in higher ed, I’m not sure how much help a letter of reference would be. But I would follow up once more and then if he doesn’t hear back, I would assume she’s not going to do it.

      1. TeacherNerd*

        Since they’re asked for, at least often enough, I suspect there are cases in which one can’t officially finish applying unless one can provide, if not written references, contact info for X number of references.

        That said, I’m wondering if the husband can just ask if he can pass along his reference’s contact info.

    4. Triplestep*

      I really thought the days of collecting hard copy letters of reference were long over. It’s too easy to fake those, and typically the new employer would reach out to a reference on their own.

      I would suggest that your husband connect with her on Linkedin where she can post her recommendation. There’s no faking that!

  106. Josie*

    I need to vent a little.

    I was a little frustrated with my boss this morning. Tomorrow we have two events: end of summer reading party (my responsibility), and a book sale (her responsibility (and idea!)). Mine has been planned as much as I can, allowing for last minute things. The book sale though… Two days ago she was talking about how organized she is, and how she plans well. Yesterday she told me I didn’t need to do ‘everything’ (I don’t) after I asked if she needed more than me just being there for the book sale. “I’ll wing it” she told me this morning, “Like I usually do, and stress about everything then.”

    )/!”%)&!!!! <– What my face probably looked like after she said that, because she huffed and asked "well, what would you do then?" She had not sorted the books, thought about prices or tables, sales posters (I took care of the marketing weeks ago after she forgot), how people should pay, who should man the tables…. Nothing, other than we have books, and they will be sold tomorrow. *cries* So I said nothing for a few minutes, and then told her how I would run it, which was quite detailed since I've had a feeling it might end up like this. So, I'll be in charge of 85-90% of two events tomorrow (I do get back-up, after asking three times), which was supposed to be my day off.

    She's a decent boss about most things, but not about anything that needs much planning. She prefers winging it, since it's generally worked out for her in the past, but this is not a small, hidden away library anymore. It doesn't work to just do events on the fly with no thought to the logistics like she's used to. But, at least she's aware that I'm running around in the background doing the stuff she doesn't want to, and making sure she has time to prepare for what she needs time to prepare for.

    Things are unlikely to change, but at least I get to do a lot of things, and I like being the backgroud/logistics person so overall it's not bad. :)

    1. Kathenus*

      I know it’s a moot point now, but what would have happened if you hadn’t offered to run it? It would have been crazy and unorganized? Not as successful as if it was well run? Would that be such a bad thing? I’m a procrastinator, but I know when I need to start something to do it well, and try to make sure the only person that gets the stress of the last minute work is me. But if someone jumps in and does it for me, well, I might let them? I understand it’s your boss, you care about the events, but consider for the future if letting her succeed or not on her own and not intervene. Good luck with both events.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Agree, you can’t care about your department/ organization more than your boss does. Some times you have to let them fail so that they recognize the value of you/ your methods. Otherwise they just learn “these things work themselves out!”

        1. Josie*

          I don’t think I care more, it’s more of a different working styles issue, I think? And she’s had this job for 30 years, so I doubt she’ll change just because I’m a planner and like doing logistics. :) She gets just as annoyed with my leed for planning as I get with her for not wanting to plan, so I guess it evens out?

          1. WellRed*

            I agree, she won’t change. However, while she may have held job for 30 years, it sounds like the JOB has changed and she us not keeping up.

            1. Josie*

              Yeah, she has another 12-15 years before she retires and she hates change, so things will probably just stay the same until she does. I’ll hopefully be long gone by then, though.

      2. Josie*

        It probably would have been chaos, and she would be cranky and difficult to work with tomorrow and next week because of the self-inflicted stress. It’s not that she a procrastinator, it’s that she doesn’t like to plan anything. I am a procrastinator with anxiety, which is partly why I like having routines/guidelines for different types of events etc at work so at least I have a framework. She got loud at me when I asked about guidelines when I first started working here, since that’s not how she likes doing things. I needed to figure out how to do things on my own since that’s what she had to do, and there was no need to plan the majority of events since they liked to do things on the fly.

        tl;dr It wouldn’t have been a horror show if she hadn’t given it to me, since she is good at her job. But, I don’t like working with her when she’s stressed since she can get mean, which stresses me out and sets of my anxiety (which I try really hard not to drag into work with me).

        1. valentine*

          What if you’re her plan? She got to do nothing or very little and you’ve swooped in again to rescue her. Even if everyone knows you’re the one doing everything, this doesn’t seem like it benefits you, especially long-term. Is it too late to get your day off back?

  107. Salary Range Question*

    How do you figure out a salary range when there’s: no industry standard, and no one with a similar background in your company that you know of (and this would be a company of 10,000+ employees around the world)? When there’s no standard, no one to sidle up to and discretely ask, and no job title in that company that matches what you actually do, how do you go about ascertaining a salary range?

    My husband has been working for the same airline for 18 years come September. During that time, he’s worked in a variety of positions, starting as a pilot, but is now working as a database developer. The problem is that there is no “database developer” category within his company. He is professionally miscategorized because a position was created for him, so now his official title is “Donut Analyst,” even though he is not, in fact, a donut analyst; he’s more like a cross between donut tester and donut developer, but again, there’s no comparable position in the company. Something vaguely close is donut engineer, and there is a salary range for that, but he wouldn’t be able to get a job as a donut engineer because of lack of education and experience. Looking up “database developer” for other airlines indicates salaries that are quite a few steps up from what the managers make (my husband is not a manager and has no interest in being one, in large part because it would require moving to a part of the state where my finding a job would be extremely difficult; since I outearn my husband, this would be a bad move).

    So how do you figure out what’s realistic when there are no comparisons?

    2. CAA*

      Database Developers are not usually managers, and many of them do out-earn managers, so I’m not following why it’s a problem that the database developers get paid more than managers at other airlines. They should get paid more at his airline too.

      But on a general note, salaries are more of an art than a science for many professional positions. Some things to consider are:
      – what does his title (even if he’s got the wrong title) get paid at other companies of similar size in the same industry?
      – what does his title get paid at other companies of similar size in the same city?
      – if he’s got a combo role, what do people that do the various parts of his job get paid (again looking at company size and geographic region)? Is he doing the least skilled parts of these other jobs or the most skilled?
      – can he quantify the value he brings to his company?

      Some of this you can get from other job postings, from Glassdoor, from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, from colleagues and friends, etc. You just have to collect as many relevant numbers as you can and kind of mash them together to figure out what makes sense in this specific situation. There’s no formula for this.

      1. Salary Range Question*

        In this particular case, in this particular company, there’s a rigid hierarchy in terms of pay scale, so if you aren’t a manager, you will not, under any circumstance, earn more than your manager. But this is very helpful; thank you!

        1. Someone Else*

          If it’s as rigid as that, then it’s unlikely this company will ever pay him market wage for what he’s doing because they’ve given themselves an arbitrary cap (whatever his manager makes), rather than basing his pay on what the position actually is.

          1. Cedrus Libani*

            Agreed. It sounds like this guy is insanely underpaid. If he can pass for a data engineer, even a junior one, and he can’t make more than the non-technical management one level up…either he reports to the nearest VP, or he’s getting robbed.

            Given the likely size of the pay gap, I’d be shocked if the current company would come up to market wages. If he would be willing and able to do a job that pays much, much more than his current one…well, maybe he should do that job instead?

  108. Frustrated Under Pressure*

    We did a systems migration on June 1st and we’ve hit a ton of potholes along the way. We’re (embarrassingly) just now reconciling June (because the reconciliation module wasn’t ready until after we closed July) and we’re still working through a learning curve. Meanwhile, we’re all behind on our regular work, we’re under pressure and we’re all stressed.

    I sit next to the corner desk of an open workspace and my three coworkers around me keeping asking me how to do stuff, to the point that I am unable to get my own work done. The hint of wearing headphones isn’t working. They’re asking me basic questions; i.e. I’m teaching them how to reconcile a bank statement. Seriously! I’m about to get up and walk away just to avoid them because they’re driving me bonkers!

    What can I say to get them to stop asking me questions?

    1. Ennigaldi*

      “Please refer to the documentation”? I don’t know but I’m here for suggestions, since we’re doing our systems migration starting today and I’m already in almost the same situation (aieeeee)

    3. Mouse that roared*

      Look at the work papers from the last time and then IF you can’t figure it out, ask then?

  109. Hand-holder*

    Short question: What are your best tips and tricks to stay sane while managing very junior staff who not only don’t know much about your industry, but about the world of work in general?

    Long rant: I manage a small team of around 7. On the whole, they’re great but some of them are VERY junior (first job out of college kind of deal) and I’m running low on energy to deal with the sheer amount of hand holding they need.

    Three biggest things which bother me are 1) near-running commentaries from some of them about what they are doing, as if they want my constant approval or input – these happen even if I say something like, ‘I’m going to be working on this teapots report for about the next 45 minutes or so. I’d prefer not to be disturbed. Would you mind not doing so unless it’s urgent?’, 2) pieces of work being left undone because ‘it’s too difficult’ with the implication that I’ll do it for them – sometimes I do because we have client deadlines to meet but most of the time I give it back to them with clearer instruction and we’re talking solutions along the lines of ‘Have you tried Google?’ here, not anything horrifically complex and 3) deciding that their college professor knows better than me and I’m sure in some respects they do but they’ve never had to work with our boss, for our company or with our clients so it’s pretty frustrating to have the ‘In the future, would you mind making any rice sculptures shorter than 30cm out of long grain rice, please?’ ‘Well, I was always taught to make all rice sculptures out of short grain and Prof Fergus said it’s better that way’ ‘Yes, but that’s not what the boss wants’ at least once a fortnight.

    My boss is aware of the worst of the issues with the staff members concerned – another long story but I don’t have ‘hiring and firing’ powers so any ‘Please could you use long grain rice going forward? It’s not acceptable to use short grain in these circumstances’ conversations can, and do, happen between me and the team but any ‘You need use long grain rice and using short grain could have you put on a PIP’ need to happen at my boss’s level.

    Any advice? Part of me thinks it’s just part of a management job – which I love on the whole…this is just a very small but very draining and energy sapping part of it.

    1. Anonymeece*

      I work with a lot of student workers and student employees, and my advice is offer a lot of professional development opportunities, meet with them for an orientation and set expectations, and don’t be afraid to offer a lot of coaching.

      For instance, when you say they’re arguing that their professor said it’s better, you can say, “The boss doesn’t want it that way. In the working world, sometimes you have to do things the boss’s way instead of a way that you think is better. I’m not saying you can never push back, but there are appropriate ways and times to do that.”

      It also sounds like you’re softening your language a lot – “Would you mind not doing that” and “would you mind making any rice sculptures…”. You might try being more firm: “Do not disturb me unless it’s urgent” or “Rice sculptures under 30 cm must be made with long grain rice.” When they turn in short grain rice, say, “Redo this using long grain rice, as per my instructions.”

      Truthfully, though, I still get a lot of these problems. Usually by the time I train them up, they graduate, and I start over.

      Best of luck!

      1. Lil Fidget*

        ideally also, can you build toward the long-term goal of retaining the best of these and having them handle training the new ones? Get rid of the ones that aren’t working out and keep on building a better team, if only so that you don’t feel like you’re the revolving-door supervisor of new people forever. But that may take institutional changes that are beyond your power.

        1. Anonymeece*

          That’s a great point – the ones who have been there longer do take on a mentoring role, which I actively encourage, and that helps. Unfortunately, I work at a two year institution, so retaining the best isn’t really feasible, as they transfer and move on, and the job description is only for current students.

          But a more formal mentoring program is an excellent idea. Maybe say, “Sam has been here for a while and can help show you around. If you have any questions, feel free to ask Sam for help!”

      2. Hand-holder*

        I think I might try being more firm with them as I do think I get a better reaction when I am more direct with them. I think we’ve done a fairly good job of spelling out expectations although it’s definitely something to think about if there’s any areas which might not have been fully covered.

        I think part of the problem is that there’s no immediate consequence for some of the things. For example, Wakeen has been told he must tell us what types of rice he needs for next week by 4pm on Thursday – yet I’m regularly pestering him to make a list at 1pm, then 2pm, then 3pm before sitting down and making it for him because he can’t find the email he needs or he forgot to update a spreadsheet or something else. He knows, because I tell him every time it happens, the orders must be in by 4pm otherwise the supplier won’t have time to deliver the rice on Monday. He, however, also knows that my neck is on the line if he’s not making rice sculptures on Monday so I will do it for him if he doesn’t. My boss knows Wakeen is not doing this on a regular basis but is yet to decide what to do about it.

        And I feel you on the ‘I train them up and then they leave’. We have more entry level places than there are places to move up into so there’s a certain degree of churn. Last month, lost one of my team to a competitor who could offer him what was effectively the promotion we couldn’t – absolutely stings because this was the kind of person who had gone from making me want to scream into a pillow to being the person who you could just leave to get on with things. I’m super proud of him but at the same time not happy at all.

        1. Gumby*

          Not sure how well this will work either in practice or in the metaphor – but is there a type of rice that Wakeen particularly doesn’t like working with? Because it seems to me that a natural consequence of not properly preparing for work is that you get assigned less-than-optimal jobs. If you want better jobs, order your own rice as instructed?

          Right now, he doesn’t have a rice-ordering problem because there are no consequences. Perhaps one obvious consequence (no rice is ordered, he has nothing to do Monday so is sent home w/o pay) is not available to you, but are there other possible consequences that *are* possible?

    2. Kathenus*

      Strong agree on setting clear expectations. Also prioritizing or picking your battles on which aspects you focus on at once. Maybe list for yourself, by person or in general, what the main issues are. Which are most important to you that they improve on? Are there very specific, concrete guidance you can give them to lay out your expectations? Then pick 2-3 things and give them the instructions on how you expect these handled and then follow up as needed with reinforcement or direction on how they do. Once they improve in these areas, tick another 1-2 off the list, and so on. If they don’t, treat it as any performance issue and manage their behavior up, or manage them out if they truly can’t or won’t improve. I know it’s frustrating, but bite-sized pieces might be easier to manage than an across the board approach. Good luck.

      1. Hand-holder*

        Thanks for this. Would say the people who there are genuine issues with (i.e. the people who aren’t otherwise-fine-except-occasionally-do-a-handful-of-annoying-things) have clear instructions on one or two things which need to be improved from my perspective. The problem, as indicated above, is that, when it comes to the managing up part, nothing happens for a while.

    3. Amtelope*

      Things I suspect:
      1) They don’t know what “urgent” means in a professional setting. Consider making a list of good reasons to interrupt you when you’re working. Specifically tell them that finishing one task and starting a new task is not one of the reasons.
      2) They don’t know how to look for more information (on Google, in documentation, etc.) when they hit an obstacle. It might be worth doing some training with them on the general topic of “when I don’t understand how to complete the task, what can I do other than asking Hand-holder?” Then when they complain that something is “too hard” or that they didn’t understand the instructions, make them tell you what they’ve already tried to figure out how to do it.
      3) They don’t really understand how dealing with clients works. You might try, “When I give you an assignment, you need to be sure to follow the specifications exactly. They’re set by the client, and can’t be changed. If you would ordinarily use short-grain rice for a project like this, but the specifications I give you say to use long-grain rice, you must use long-grain rice. If you don’t, I’ll have to ask you to redo the work, and it will waste time and money.”

      1. Hand-holder*

        Thanks for this. The nature of the work means that what’s urgent on one project won’t necessarily be urgent on another but there are some things which will be urgent 90% of the time so might be worth making a list of those. Ditto with ‘where to look for information’ but, again, there are a few common places and it might be worth running them through that. Usually I do it verbally – ‘Why is section 13 not filled out?’ ‘I couldn’t find the answer in the file’ ‘Have you tried Googling for it? ‘Oh…ok, I’ll do that now’ – but it might be worth having a checklist and making it clear that handing over incomplete work without an explanation isn’t acceptable.

        1. Gumby*

          This may not work because “Googling it” is such a basic answer for them to be missing but what about breaking it down even more.

          “I couldn’t find the answer in the file.”
          “Oh, what do you think might be a good next-step?”
          “I don’t know, that’s why I asked you.”
          “Okay, well, brainstorm a little. What other sources of information are available to you?”

          It might take longer, and that is annoying, but it is also putting more of the onus on them. And in addition to training them in problem solving, it also makes asking you a less-convenient option.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Having trained dozens of student employees here’s my advice, though I’m sure your mileage will vary.

      1. Can you use headphones or have a sign or close an office door? They have having trouble judging what urgent is. You need to help them do that by giving examples or telling them to ask someone else. Is there a more experienced person they can go to?

      2. What sorts of documentation do you have? Have you got a list of steps they should work through before coming to you? Because that might help. Remember, they don’t have a lot of work experience to fall back on and they are used to asking a parent or teacher for help. Redirecting them is going to be a learning curve.

      3. This is about them being embarrassed they messed up and trying to explain why they made the choice they made. It sounds like you are taking this personally and you shouldn’t.

      Lastly, a lot of your examples have “soft” language. I would stop using that. Don’t say “would you please” instead say “Don’t do…” . These people are young and they’re not used to reading between the lines. You are doing neither yourself nor them any favors by softening your responses.

      1. Hand-holder*

        Thanks for this.

        1) We’re open plan so office door is out. I already use headphones when I’m busy. This just leads to me being sent IMs or, in a couple of cases, having them wave their hand in front of my face until I respond. Nobody more experienced they can go to for most queries although there is one category that could go to somebody else so might try saying ‘If it’s about Z, please ask Jane before asking me’.

        2) Our documentation is admittedly lacking. I started trying to draw some up when I first joined but it kept turning into a cycle of I’d end up on a project, it would get dropped, systems would get changed and what I’d written so far would need to be changed. But, because it probably is a bit of an oversight not to have it, I reckon I might be able to get sign off from my boss to prioritise it.

        3) Now that I’ve sat here and thought about it, although a fair few do this, there’s only one that it’s an issue with. The others are doing it in the ‘You’ve called me out and I want to offer an explanation’ way you referred to (and I can’t claim I’ve never said ‘Well, at ex-job, we did it like this so I thought I’d do that here’). The one I have an issue with I get the impression was a bit of a big fish in a small pond…and isn’t really adjusting that well now the pond is bigger. The ‘You need to use long grain here’ conversations with this particular person aren’t so much along the lines of ‘Opps! Sorry! I was always told to use short grain at college!’ and more ‘Let me tell you about why you’re wrong to use long grain and why both the boss and client are wrong to request it’. Another manager has raised similar concerns (basically got a lecture on best practice in the area she had spent the last decade of her career specialising in based off this person’s one semester of lessons on the topic).

  110. Reportedly, nice girls don't get the corner office*

    Reading this on kindle after hearing plenty about it on various blogs. I’m very much a people pleaser (trying to recover) and so far I feel the book may help. Anyone read it (women or men!)? What do you think? Have you taken action after reading? Has it gone well?

    1. Lillie Lane*

      I just re-read it. It has some very useful information. The book also annoys me, though, because why do women have to change what we do to be perceived differently or fight for opportunities that we should be getting?

      On a similar note, I read an interesting opinion article yesterday about women’s speaking/voice characteristics and getting judged on it — will post link as reply below.

      2. Reportedly.*

        I both agree and disagree. Women are socialised to be apologetic, not born that way, and I believe it does us harm above and beyond the work situations the book talks about.

        It annoys me mightily that anger is seen as much more excusable than tears. Why should tears be a sign of weakness? (One of my last days in work before my hols I was basically working through tears for a while. I sit in a corner so can get away with it. Working through it was much more efficient and effective than hiding while I got to grips with myself and i preferred to do that.)

        However, I don’t wear makeup and being asked a question about whether my makeup “augments my message” really, REALLY pissed me off.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I read it, I wasn’t quite as impressed as I expected to be based on the enthusiastic reccs I’d received. I think she’s right that some of those behaviors WORK when you are young, which is why they persist – that was helpful for me to keep in mind. But on the whole, I needed a little bit more actionable advice to really make a change for myself. Also ditto the comment below that basically some “women behaviors” are Bad and we should Stop Doing Them – got kind of irritating.

    3. Bea*

      I haven’t read it but given the commentary and title, I’m certain to disagree..

      I’m not only nice but I do things the way I like doing them, kindly and thoughtfully. I’m in a male dominated industry to put a cherry on top. I’ve been kicking down doors and climbing ladders since I started working at 19. I’m on the path to being an executive.

      I can switch it off if I’m given nonsensical pushback from the few sexist numbskulls I’ve watch burn their businesses down or even more delightfully so, get fired if they’re not ownership.

      You have to be versatile and clever, duck and weave. I don’t subscribe to any one set path. That’s how you survive and thrive.

  111. Anonymous for now*

    Have you ever had trouble when leaving a job and people won’t take transition tasks?

    I’m LEAVING. Someone will have to do it. Don’t put it on me to identify that someone.

    1. Hand-holder*

      Yes – grandboss eventually ‘volunteered’ somebody after a week of people dodging it. They were not pleased but, I think, still there now so clearly wasn’t that bad.

    2. rubyrose*

      Yep. It was a board level position in a self-help group. After giving them a 10 week notice and mentioning every couple of weeks that someone needed to take over my role, I went to the last meeting, put the books on the table in front of everyone, and said “here it is.” I then walked out of the room.

  112. Ennigaldi*

    My performance review with my new-ish manager is next week. We get along fine, but he doesn’t really give feedback – for instance yesterday I sent him a message that I’d figured out that you need to set X to this value to get Y to work, and he replied something like “always set X to this value to get Y to work.” This is a problem we’d discussed a couple weeks ago, when neither of us knew how to solve it. This is also the manager that couldn’t come up with my name when he was discussing our team’s successes for the year in front of the entire department (he named everyone else on the team). I can’t tell how much of this is my personal preference to get feedback from a manager when working on a difficult project vs. what’s a manager being kind of oblivious because he’s new at management. Should I say anything?

  113. Nala*

    How much should you say in a resignation letter about why you’re leaving?

    Story: I’ve been at my company a little over a year. I took a position that I had experience in but the workload was overall pretty light. To make up for that I took on additional work outside my core job and basically became my boss’ right hand person. Eventually there was talk of our department taking on additional duties and my boss tapped me to take a more expanded role within the team. I met with her and my grand boss to discuss the details of the promotion and everything sounded great. I would stay under my boss but have a bit of autonomy to coordinate and develop this new program. A week later two additional people had been brought on above me, I was no longer under my boss, the title/job they had given me was actually a demotion, and I was no longer going to receive a raise. Additionally, I found out all of this via a mass email. I fought the title and got a slight improvement, but my job duties are now basically a step above the intern (for reference I have 6 years experience and advanced certifications in my field). My old boss ended up leaving over this and me and another coworker are currently job searching. When my boss quit she didn’t provide the whole story since she didn’t want it to hurt my career before I left. I’m applying to jobs but how much should I say in the resignation letter? My past job didn’t do exit interviews so I don’t know if there’s going to be a chance to say why they’re losing three team members.

    1. Snark*

      I wouldn’t get into it. If they have an exit interview, that tells you they want to know, but in the absence of one, they don’t. I’d strip it down to the bare essentials.

    2. Anon From Here*

      If it were me, I wouldn’t put any reasons in the letter. I’d write something along the lines of, “I’m writing to let you know that I have accepted a position with another company. This letter serves as my two weeks’ notice that my last day at the office will be [X]. I wish the company the best of luck in its future endeavors.”

      If management wants to know why you’re leaving, they’ll ask. If they don’t want to know, they won’t take action on any reasons in your letter anyway.

      2. BRR*

        Yup this. If they care they’ll ask. Sometimes people don’t care and ask why you’re leaving but they rarely care and don’t ask. So telling them might not accomplish anything and it would be better to just start with I’m leaving on this date.

    3. gbca*

      Say nothing in writing. If they want to ask you why and you want to share, go ahead. But it definitely doesn’t belong in a resignation letter. The letter should really just be a brief formality with your last date for documentation purposes.

    4. CatCat*

      I wouldn’t say anything at all about why. Period. I don’t see how that benefits you at all. If they don’t know that a demotion and loss of a raise (communicated over email!) is the cause, that is just willful ignorance on their part. Not your job to fix.

    5. Triplestep*

      I think you need to practice a scaled down version of this story for your *job interviews* and not worry so much about your resignation letter. Your answer to the “why are you looking to leave your current job” question can be about how your job changed after a re-org and there aren’t as many opportunities for growth. Period. Get that job, write a letter containing only the information that you are leaving and on what date.

      As satisfying as it seems to write that letter (you’re fantasizing about it and you don’t have a new job yet!) it will not be enlightening. They know why you are leaving.

  114. Jessica Fletcher*

    This morning I gave notice at my job! The most dysfunctional, unprofessional, terrible environment I’ve ever experienced! Where the ED yells at me because she doesn’t understand things, instead of just asking! Where I’m the only person on what is supposed to be a four-person team!

    I’m so excited. The job I’m going to pays a LOT more, and it’s with a company that’s very successful. I feel like I can have a long career there, which is something I was looking for. I’m moving from the small, nonprofit sector to a big corporate office, something I never thought I’d do, but I’m excited and happy!

  115. PB*

    I’m working on interview questions for a middle manager role. The role will involve a good amount of managing up. I want to ask candidates about their experiences managing up, without coming across overly negative. Anyone have any tried and true interview questions?

      1. PB*

        They’ll need to communicate staff needs to upper administration and, at time, intercede on decisions made by upper administration that will affect the staff, the space, and our customer’s needs.

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      I would do some questions about motivating people to action (who you didn’t supervise), and about handling a supervisor (or partner) when their understanding of the work or approach did not match your vision/goals.

  116. Nervous Newbie*

    Hi all!
    Just started a new job and I might be having a little bit of buyer’s remorse. The new gig’s benefits are not as great as my old job and the commute is longer. Pay is slightly better but not much. The reason I jumped for this opportunity was because there was no room for growth in my old job and I was worried I would become stuck in an admin position if I didn’t get out of there. I also wasn’t getting many interviews when I was applying to other positions. This was my only offer after about 50 applications. I have a lot of room for growth but I’m also realizing this might not be what I want to do for the rest of my life. I guess I just want some reassurance because I’m feeling stressed and feel like I’m having an existential crisis!

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I feel ya. Remember that this job isn’t forever. It’s okay to make a year-long plan for how you’re going to leverage this experience into a new job – but also, I think there’s often a bit of a blue period after your initial excitement wears off that’s normal and to be expected. So basically in a similar situation I’m just trying to keep my perspective and carry on.

      1. Nervous Newbie*

        Thank you! I’m just feeling nervous about the whole thing. Everyone at my new job is so committed and passionate about the work we’re doing so it feels like double pressure to commit and do well. And I know I’m looking back at my old job with some rose colored glasses. Hang in there!

    2. WellRed*

      When I started at my job, which was a step bavk into my field, I regularly screamed omg, what have I done, in my head for months. Last week, marked 13 years hear. Guess I done alright.

  117. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    I’ve heard about it for a while, but today we saw it: a prostitute offering her services via Linkedin. One of our team got the profile suggested once he accepted an invitation from an HR person. Now we’re curious – how do you list your achievements, position or work history? We didn’t dare to look, though.

    1. Annie Moose*

      I imagine she’d have quite a lot of positions…

      (I’M SORRY, I KEEP DOING THIS TODAY, I CAN’T HELP IT)

      Seriously, though, I think you genuinely could write it the same as any sort of customer-focused position–you’d probably want to focus on customer satisfaction, repeat customers, etc. For work history, well, most would basically be freelancers, right? And you’d probably want to list any, like, specialization or specific expertise you have.

  118. Toxic waste*

    I work with a woman who laughs when I accidentally entered vacation time in the wrong entry, gets mad when people praise me, she smiles when I get in trouble…. Now, she’ll be the first to tell you how mean people are to her, yet has no sympathy for anyone else…. Is this a “your coworker sucks and isn’t going to change” situation?

    I just don’t get why she is so mean/why she hates me. Everyone else gets along well with the people they work with. This woman wants absolutely nothing to do with me and has been like this from the beginning.

    1. Anonymeece*

      I’m sorry! That sucks. But yeah, I think the best you can do is: don’t engage, don’t respond, and always CYA when dealing with her. Sometimes people just like stirring up trouble, and sometimes they just pick a random person to torment.

      If it escalates – especially if it’s impacting your ability to do your job in meaningful ways (like she’s not responding to emails or not showing up to meetings or lying about what you’ve done/not done), then you can take it to your boss, but otherwise, she just sucks and my advice would be to ignore her. Cultivate good relationships with everyone else and write it off as one of those things.

      I am sorry though. That’s a horrible feeling.

    2. valentine*

      You’re a threat to her. Don’t let her see she gets to you. Learn not to care and keep going until you find her dislike amusing.

  119. league*

    Hi all – Hoping someone can identify an AAM letter that I SWEAR I didn’t make up, but I can’t find it in the archives. It was one where a teen (? or other young person) wrote in that they had a job interview and they had to answer the phone in the middle of it because their parent was calling. But the letter said, “How can I get my parent to stop calling me during job interviews?” and of course you can imagine what Alison’s response was to that.

    …Maybe it was Ask Amy rather than Ask a Manager?

      1. league*

        I would think you’d remember it if it were yours! And there are so many letters (of the alphabet) in common between your & Amy’s advice-column names….I’ll do an Ask Amy search.

      2. Lurker Who Can't Remember My Previous Names*

        Do you ever delete letters? I have been searching like crazy for the letter about the manager who was fired after their employee killed someone while at a conference and on drugs. I thought I read somewhere that there was an update posted within the comments.

        Thank you for your wonderful website, especially the updates and the interaction in the comments, which are the two BEST parts of this!

          1. Lurker Who Can't Remember My Previous Names*

            Wow, thank you for the fast response and the link! All my search terms kept giving me that link, but I forgot about the fast-answer posts and kept ignoring it. Silly me!

            I see now that the OP responded but never gave an update. That was such a heartbreaking and unfair story. I hope the OP has found a better place or position where she can advance and leave that all behind her.

  120. Food! Roaches! & More!*

    I have a part-time employee (less than 20 hours/wk), let’s call him George, who is a nice guy, but rather eccentric and sometimes doesn’t “get” social cues. Recently we’ve been having problems with rats and roaches. We were moving locations, so I was packing and found an entire small filing cabinet filled with food – open snacks, sealed Ramen, coffee and coffee-stained papertowels, etc. The other teammates told me that the entire cabinet was George’s.

    The new location currently doesn’t have much room for personal storage, so I asked that he throw it away or take it home, and also requested that only closed snacks be left overnight (so no open trailmix bags or anything) to combat the roach/rat problem.

    The problem is that George also wants our small breakroom (shared with 60+ people) to be a fully stocked, personal kitchen. He’ll routinely ask if we have obscure spices, or dressings, etc. and we’ve always said, “Not unless you brought it.”

    I’m struggling with a way to approach this, because I don’t want to seem like I’m contradicting myself. Most people “get” the unspoken rule (bring a small lunch, take it home with you; maybe leave a few snacks or a bottle of ranch because you eat salad for lunch every day, but not a full pantry of supplies), but George doesn’t seem to understand. To him, it appears we’re saying, “Bring in all the food you may use,” but then also saying, “But stop bringing in food”.

    Any suggestions on how to approach this conversation? We do not have room for everyone to bring in their entire pantry, so yeah, there are some things that you may just have to do without at work. And I am totally fine with a few snacks or something, but this is excessive. How do I articulate this unspoken rule to someone who doesn’t get it?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Oh man, in this case I’d say its simple because there’s a direct problem you need to solve. “George, I’m sorry but you can’t store food at your desk anymore, because of the bug problem. Please take it all home today or tomorrow. You can keep a few sealed things in the kitchen but we need to keep the amount that we have here to a minimum.” We also have a every-friday-everything-gets-pitched rule (it’s more of a guideline) that gives us cover. We’re an office, not a restaurant.

    2. Anon From Here*

      Change it from an unspoken rule to a short-ish set of appropriate written rules and post them in the breakroom.

      “The breakroom is not a pantry. Do not leave more than [X number of] personal packages of food here.”

      “Do not leave any packages of food unsealed at any time. Unsealed packages may be thrown away at any time.”

      “The fridge will be emptied of all contents every [X] weeks and all contents thrown away. Next cleaning date: ___”

      Etc.

    4. Judy (since 2010)*

      I can’t answer your question, but wanted to point out something I’ve learned about food in the office. I once worked in a 70 year old building, and we had to keep food in tins or heavy plastic containers. The mice would even gnaw through the “take and toss” thin plastic containers. They would certainly gnaw through packaging like granola bars, trail mix, etc.

    5. anonagain*

      Would it make sense to assign him a specific space? Maybe even give him a pest-proof box and say that any pantry items have to fit in the box with the lid shut.

      If he asks if you have some obscure ingredient, I would just say no.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Alternately, “George, you know the only condiments we have are salt and pepper [or whatever you actually do have].”

    6. Bagpuss*

      I think you need to be very clear with him. Maybe “George, we have a bug problem and the amount of food you’re keeping n the office is a problem. You need to make sure that anything you bring is either eaten the same day you bring it, or taken home that night. The only exceptions are that you may keep a small number of *unopened* snacks, but once the packet is open you need to eat it or take it home. You can keep up to 1 jar or bottle of dressing in the fridge. ”

      Another option might be to give him a sealable plastic box (tupperware or equivalent) and tell him “This is your box. You can store any food you want to have i the office, in this box. You can bring food in for your lunch, but cannot leave anything in the office overnight except in this box, in the fridge”

    7. Undine*

      The minute you have an active pest problem (rats!) caused by food storage, you can just say, “no, we can’t store more than (X) food overnight, you can’t bring things in, we been having pest problems, and we don’t want that to recur.”

      And the same with the kitchen. “This is primarily for snacks and people bringing things in from home. This is not a full kitchen, we don’t have the room for everyone to stock it the way they would like. In addition, we’ve had pest problems, so we need to cut way back on the amount of food we are storing.”

    8. OP to Roaches & Rats*

      Thanks, everyone!

      I was reluctant to give a hard limit (saying “You can only have X items”), particularly as I don’t eat lunch at work, so I feel like I don’t know what’s reasonable, but it sounds like that’s the best way to delineate what an “acceptable” amount is. I like the idea of designating a box/space and everything he wants to bring must fit in that.

      I’ll try this out! I have a huge phobia of roaches, too, so finding several of the creepy crawlies in my office the past few weeks has NOT been fun for me.

      1. foolofgrace*

        I also have that phobia. I’m job hunting, and when I get an offer, how do I ask if the workkplace is vermin-free? I know there’s no way to ask that, I’m just venting.

  121. Anna*

    I miss my work friends, how to deal?
    I have been in the same company for a long time. I love the work, which is challenging and rewording, if stressful at times. I have been promoted in the last year and want to stay here.

    I used to work with a close group. We have experienced a lot together. We supported each other. The company has gone through big changes in my time. It went from a toxic workplace to a much better one. I the toxic times we grew close. I liked them I respected them even when we disagreed. I felt safe with them.
    Now they are gone. Some retired, others went to work at another company. It is not that I dislike the new people but I do not trust them yet. I have to be careful not to say “we used to” all the time.
    I feel sad and lonely at work

    1. Business Librarian*

      You made great friends before, and after some time you will again. It’s perfectly appropriate to miss people and feel lonely while you’re waiting for friendships to develop but remember that this is an interim time. Reach out to the new people in low-key ways and I believe you’ll have new work-friendships again. I just hope you don’t have any more calamities to bond over!

      1. Anna*

        Thank you! You made me remember how it was in the beginning. It took time to get to know the old people and to start trusting each other.

        Thanks again

  122. TheWonderGinger*

    How Do I feel like I haven’t been wasting my time?

    I have applied and interviewed for several different openings at a local hospital. On more than one occasion I have been through three rounds of interviews (phone, in person, and a job shadow) only to be passed over each time. I know this is a tough market and the nature of interviewing but each position requires separate interviews and I have had to use roughly 20 hours of my PTO at current job this summer just for interviewing. Yesterday I got another rejection email and now I’m struggling with feeling like I’m been wasting my efforts.

    Basically, how do I feel like I haven’t wasted 20 hours of my PTO on interviewing with a company that keeps passing me over in the final rounds?

    1. Business Librarian*

      The only thing I can think of is to imagine it all as getting expert in interviewing. I can’t believe that you’re wasting your time though if you’ve gone through so many of the steps. If they thought you were a waste of their time they wouldn’t keep bringing you back. It totally sucks to be what appears to be the runner-up so many times, but you keep passing the early hurdles! You rock!

  123. anon dad*

    Any suggestions as to how to handle managers making it difficult to use company-provided benefits? My company provides 6 weeks of paid paternity leave, which is amazing. (Possibly relevant: my company is medium/large, and under a huge parent company, which dictates the policy.) They require it to be used in 2-week increments (i.e. no less than 2 weeks at a time), and HR told me I would need to coordinate with my manager. We have been planning on me using 2 weeks when the baby arrives for us to bond as a family, and then 4 weeks when my go to work, which will allow us to defer daycare to 16 weeks of age rather than 12. I communicated this timeline to my boss two months ago, and baby isn’t due until October.

    While I haven’t gotten direct pushback on this, I’ve gotten the sense that management isn’t entirely supportive. My boss is actually expecting a baby as well, and he texted me last night to ask for the dates again to ensure it doesn’t conflict with his paternity leave. First of all, given our workflow, it really doesn’t matter if we’re out at the same time. Second, babies change plans and neither of our dates are set in stone. Separately, I was talking to boss’s boss about a promotional opportunity, and she seemed pretty interested. Then she asked about my paternity leave plans, and she just said “Oh.” and the tone of the conversation completely changed. Now I’m being told I’m not being considered. Certainly could be a coincidence, but I’m a little suspicious, and overall I just get the sense that they’re not really supportive of me taking this time when I need to for my family.

    Any suggestions on how to handle if I get more significant pushback? I’m hoping to find a new job shortly after the leave, so while I don’t want to completely torch bridges, I’m also not afraid to push back if it makes sense.

    1. Nita*

      First of all, are you eligible for FMLA? If so, that’s your best way to push back. Your boss can’t legally keep you from taking FMLA, or retaliate against you for taking it. I assume the paid leave would run concurrently with the FMLA in that case.

      And if management is willing to treat you differently for taking a few weeks of paternity leave, singing that bridge a little may not be such a bad thing. My husband took leave when things weren’t going well for him at his job, and frankly, it didn’t make anything worse. It would have been worse if he’d given up that family time to show up at a job where management already dislikes him and wants to push him out. (He’s got a new job now, and good riddance to the old one.)

    2. Ms Cappuccino*

      I don’t know much about the laws in the US. Can they legally prevent you from taking your paternity leave? If not, stick to it. At the end the well being of your family is what maters the most.

  124. Stephen*

    Just looking for some support, guidance, or even just an ear. I was going for a promotion after being at my organization for almost 9 years. It looked like I was a shoe in, but they gave it to someone from outside the company. They did give me a great promotion to keep me, but not as good as the one I was hoping for, of course. The position would have put me as head of the department, and that’s what all my coworkers have been expecting. In two weeks, the Big Boss is going to be making the announcement and taking the new person and our team to a happy hour get together. Big Boss is a great guy, and I appreciate him giving me a promotion and trying to retain me, but I do have to admit that this is hard for me. I’m going to support the new person and act completely professional and cheery, even if I have to fake it sometimes. However, when the Big Boss makes the announcement and takes us all out to a happy hour to introduce the new person, it’ll be hard on me. I am a bit embarrassed about not getting the BIG promotion, especially since so many people just assumed I would. (Yes, I’ve asked for feedback – haven’t gotten as specific as I like, I have great performance reviews consistently and my own boss advocated for me – but I do plan to try to politely get some additional feedback after the dust settles a bit more so that if there is some development that would help me, I can be aware and seek out further professional development). Anyway, just asking for your thoughts, advice, or even just a little bit of a pick me up — and if you’ve faced a similar ordeal and it ended up working out great, I’d love to hear about your experience. I could use it! I do really like this company and the people I work with, including Big Boss (and we have a fantastic CEO, to boot),but, yeah, this has put a damper on my spirits, I must admit.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Oh dear I’m sorry this happened. That’s legitimately upsetting. If it were me, I’d probably find a way to break the news or hint at it to my colleagues befits the announcement, so I don’t have to experience their initial shock/ dismay as it happens, or awkward attempts to make me feel better. Or make them feel weird about trying to get to know the new guy. I hate comforting other people and helping them manage my disappointment, but this is what you’re heading for.

    2. Snark*

      Man, I got no magic. But I will say that I think you can go to the happy hour for half an hour, choke down a beer, put on a good show and get in the facetime….then go find another bar with a sympathetic bartender, a jukebox, and treat yourself to a self pity-beer. Don’t put too much pressure on yourself to put on the happy face. I’d be pissed and disappointed too.

  125. blue bird*

    script needed —
    i hired someone i know (we grew up on the same street) to clean my house. she is underemployed and her side hustle is cleaning houses. she left the floors dirty in some areas. also, i asked her not to deposit payment until the next morning, and she deposited payment the same day, and it resulted in me incurring overdraft charges.
    i need to let her know why i can’t hire her again – but not be uglt about it. script ideas? thanks!!

    1. Stephen*

      I would be inclined myself to make it a money issue and say something like, “I thought I could afford it this long term, but unfortunately, my finances aren’t quite there. ” You could decide whether or not to explain about the overdraft charge or leave it out, depending on how well you know her.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I wouldn’t be pleased if I performed a service for someone and they told me I couldn’t process my payment until the next day.

      1. Rey*

        I agree. If you knew that you couldn’t pay her until the next day, I think it’s better to reschedule to the next day.

      2. CBE*

        Same. I would probably also just deposit it that day. I did the work, I get my money. If you don’t have money to pay for the work then, delay the work until you do.
        That’s not a problem with her. That’s your mistake.

      3. tab*

        I work for myself, and don’t get paid for 30 days after I send the monthly invoice. I don’t think one day should be a problem.

        1. Dankar*

          Most of the people I know who clean houses or do similar work get paid at the end of the week or month, depending on how often they go by their clients’ houses. It’s weirder to be given a check you can’t cash til the next day, but not beyond the pale.

          I think your biggest issue is the floor that wasn’t cleaned properly. You can always say you’ve got a particular way you like to clean and you realized your more comfortable doing it yourself, rather than paying someone else to do it.

        2. Anon From Here*

          A monthly invoicing situation is different than someone who’s underemployed and presumably depending on their side hustle to pay their own bills. TBH, if I were the cleaner I’d hesitate to take a gig again from someone whose check bounced or who told me to wait before cashing it.

          Actually, TBH about my own self-employment situation, when I get a check paying me for my professional services, if I’m told “don’t cash this today,” I don’t actually consider that a payment for my work. Now, I’m not gonna drive across town and say “Shakespeare gotta get paid, son,” but one day is, in fact, a problem, and I’m likely to fire that client.

        3. Aurion*

          Net Days, (30 or whatever) means the person paying has x days to issue payment for the invoice in full, and the time frame is agreed upon beforehand. When that cheque is received, it’s pretty preposterous for the paying person to add, “oh, sorry, I know I sent that cheque but you can’t deposit it until I say so”. That’s not paying in full in the specified amount of time.

          In this case, the cleaner and blue bird had an agreement to issue payment (the cheque) in whatever time frame works for them. The fact the overdraft happened is not the cleaning person’s fault or problem.

      4. Salt water*

        If it was an issue for the cleaner, she should have said something then. Disregarding instructions on day 1, as well as halfway doing the floors, are red flags.

    3. Snark*

      I’m not seeing why you can’t hire her again. Your not having the money in your account was your issue, not hers.

      1. blue bird*

        yes, i take full responsibility for that. i wanted her to come on my payday, but she couldn’t make it that day, so that’s why we agreed on the day before. i’m not in a great financial place but am moving, needed the house to be clean for new owners, and thought it would be a way to help her.

    4. Anonymeece*

      I won’t mention the payment, as I agree with the others that you should have rescheduled.

      As for the subpar work, you can just say, “Unfortunately, this arrangement isn’t working out for me.” If she asks why, you can make a decision on what to say. As a supervisor, giving clear feedback is essential, but that’s not really your relationship, so I think it’s up to you. You can leave it vague, “I’ve had some things going on that just make it impossible for me to continue this arrangement” or give specifics (though there might be a chance that she’ll say she can do better and to give her another chance).

      1. Cranky*

        I was thinking that if the OP mentioned that the floors were dirty that the cleaning person might say she can do better if given another chance too. It sounds like OP already decided not to use her again, so having a discussion about it wouldn’t help. I like Stephen’s idea to make it a money issue. The cleaner won’t take it personally and she can’t argue if the OP says they can’t afford it.

    5. E. Jennings*

      was this supposed to be an ongoing relationship that you have to cancel, or can you just not hire her again? if you have to explain it, maybe something like: “I’ve been thinking this over and I think it’s better for me not to mix business and personal relationships.”

      I think that’s the best line because it seems like you feel like maybe you hired her in part as a favor and think that she owed you one in return, and that’s not a great dynamic in a business relationship. If her requirement is that she’s paid the day she cleans, she should be able to deposit the check when she gets it. if she’d been working for you for years and you’d always paid on time, it might be OK once to say “this is so embarrassing, but could you do me a huge favor and not deposit that check until tomorrow?” but as a first-time client, it’s a big ask.

      you can also just tell her that she didn’t clean the floors to your satisfaction, of course. that’s a fine reason not to work with a cleaning lady again!

    6. LGC*

      I wouldn’t mention the overdraft fees – it sucks, but I feel like it’s her money at that point. You took a risk and got burned. I’d probably let it go.

      But the floors are a pretty valid issue, I think! Definitely let her know that she did leave the floors dirty. And if you would fire her just based on the floor issue, that’s reason enough.

  126. GigglyPuff*

    I’ve now been job searching for a year and a half. It wouldn’t be to bad, except I’m about to be through the second group of people at my level in my branch. This one really sucks cause I was really good work friends with one and I’m going to miss them, and it’ll be just me and the bosses again. On the plus side, did have a phone interview this week that seemed good, but then again I’ve already been through three in-person (second round) interviews in the last year, and nothing panned out. *sigh*

  127. Andrew*

    So, my company (California based) decided to make a very rapid change to Flexible Time Off from Paid Time Off.

    As part of this, they needed to dispense with everyone’s accrued hours, so the original plan was to start things off by mandating three waves of people taking 2 weeks off from Aug – Sept to reduce the hours everyone has collectively, then have people burn it normally until they are out at which point they will be on Flex Time.

    I was part of the first wave (back to work on Tuesday) and just found out that they have changed their minds and will be paying out remaining PTO to all employees. Great, except for the part where me and other people in the first wave were already forced to take the mandatory 2 weeks so, in essence, everyone as part of the later windows will be paid out for their whole PTO, while I largely feel cheated out of 80 hours spent on a sudden unwanted and unexpected vacation.

    Is there an appropriate way to air the fact that basically I feel cheated out of two weeks of pay and any way to possibly seek redress?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      To me it seems fairly reasonable that you push back politely in a group and request the redress you’d appreciate. It seems like they took advantage of the more compliant people and then bought out the complainers. Equals, you may need to become a complainer.

    2. LCL*

      Did you get paid for those 80 hours of time off? If so, you weren’t cheated out of the money, but you were cheated out of the choice of how to take it.

    3. BRR*

      Ugh that stinks. I want to start with I can see nothing happening with this. You didn’t have an option but you did take the two weeks. It really stinks. Say that you would have chosen to not take the two weeks had you been given the option and propose a solution (what that solution is? I don’t know). I wouldn’t just flat out ask for two-weeks of additional pay though.

  128. Potenitally Part Time*

    Finally got ahold of my new manager after being ignored for 2 weeks. Apparently there was an issue with my onboarding and they just…never called me or tried to fix it, until I finally got ahold of the hiring manager. Here’s hoping something actually gets done this time! (Retail-ish job, so not too worried, I know it won’t be the best job ever. It’s just an odd shift from my last boss who was fantastic!)

  129. Beth Anne*

    Any tips for writing Thank you for interviewing me letters without sounding over the top? All the samples online are so over the top fake sounding.

  130. Sadness from Inside Out*

    Any suggestions for job searching while depressed? Current job combined with personal stuff has weighed heavily on my mental health. I’m a a copy writer looking to move to something more agency and creative and just more fun than where I’m at currently. All the postings I see are looking for ‘fun, out-going, creative, energetic’ people. I can be those things, but right now I am 85% not. I have good and bad days and I’m getting help. I know fake it til you make it but it’s not that easy sometimes. I also worry about getting an interview and I know I would not come across how they were hoping. I really don’t want to but would it be better to hold off my job search until I’m in a better mental state?

    1. Argh!*

      Don’t hold back on applications. If you don’t get the job, who will know except you (and your therapist)?

      You can’t let fear control you. The more you give in to it, the bigger and more unrealistic it gets. If you go ahead and interview, you’ll be dealing with the reality of your last experience and thinking about how to improve on your performance rather than worrying about something that may never happen.

      Good luck! I’ve been there. I was unemployed, angry, anxious, and depressed. Therapy plus daily swimming helped me a lot.

    3. Boba Feta*

      I am in a similar place, but didn’t have words to express it until I read your post. I had posted my own (very long) post earlier today (way below here), and didn’t even really know what I was asking, which might have been some version of this.

      In case it might help you to know: you’re not alone, and I agree with what Argh! said, and also thank them for the encouragement.

      Keep applying. Maybe don’t immediately submit the first version of your cover letter, but let it sit a bit until you feel you have a slightly more clear head and can revise a bit to remove any stink from the Lizard Brain that might have crept into the first version. At least, this is what I’m doing.

      Good luck!

      1. jolene*

        I’m a bit concerned that you want a job that’s “creative and fun” but are worried that employers will… want someone creative and fun. It really doesn’t sound as if that kind of agency work (which yes, does want fun, energetic people) is a good fit for you. It *does* sound as if you want the job and the people around you to pull you up to their level of fun energy, as it were. That’s not a great situation for you or for them. I wouldn’t apply to places like that until you’ve pulled yourself up first.

  131. chi_type*

    My department recently got a new Head and she has decided that 4 of us should take turns supervising 4 low-level PT employees . O_o

    Obviously there is a lot of potential here for miscommunication, duplication of work, etc. Does anyone have suggestions for free or low-cost apps/software to help us all stay on the same page? Maybe something with checklists, etc? I’m not even sure what we need I just see the potential for much frustration on the horizon…Any suggestions are welcome!

    1. Anonymeece*

      I’m not sure I would even look into software first. I know the new head is new, but this is something that I would definitely try pushing back on for exactly the reasons you described!

  132. wingmaster*

    I am just happy that it’s a 3-day Labor Day weekend for me… Time to catch up on sleep and no work on Monday!

  133. Kate Daniels*

    Will we get off early today or not? My workplace has been getting a bit stingier about this lately. I also wish they did it a bit more fairly (e.g., everyone gets to leave 2 hours early) instead of setting a specific time (e.g., 3 pm) because those who don’t get in until 9:30 am benefit much more than those who get in at 7:30 am!

    1. Peaches*

      Yeah, that’s a bit unfair!

      I’m wondering whether my work will let us off early, too. We close at 4:30, but they NEVER let us leave before 4:00 even when it’s dead. Wish they would just dismiss us around 2:30 – no work would go unfinished!

  134. Quackeen*

    I’m really struggling at my new (1 month) job and have actually started reaching out to my network and letting them know I am quietly job searching again. I came from an environment where I was autonomous and had flexibility to arrange my work schedule to accommodate things going on outside of work, but I’m in an environment now that is very rigid about “butts in seats for 40 hours/week” and offers very little work from home capability, despite having been advertised as “family friendly” during the interview process.

    I’m just very demoralized. I’m also certain that I will be burning a few bridges if I do find a new gig and leave, as I had a few people in my network stick their necks out for me to recommend me here. But I just can’t with this idea that, when I need to leave 30 minutes early to bring my son to an appointment, I have to ask permission in an email and then make up that 30 minutes the next day. There’s no operational need for this and, what’s worse, I’m still ramping up my projects and don’t have that much to do, so it was literally coming in early for the sake of coming in early, not because I needed that time to complete a task.

    SO UNHAPPY.

    1. ladidah*

      Hmm, that honestly doesn’t sound too unreasonable to me. If you leave early, making up that time the next day seems standard to me. I’ve had jobs where I could simply say, “I need to leave 30 min early today”, but I’d still phrase it as a question. And having to ask in email is a pain, but a minor one.
      These things apply all the more when you’re new to a job.
      Basically, this seems a bit annoying, but not egregious …

  135. Jessen*

    I am so incredibly glad to be leaving my job.

    They started a new incentive program to reduce errors. It’s got a max reward of $50 per person, but the general consensus among all experienced employees is that we’ll be lucky to get a pack of skittles to share by the end.

    Maybe try listening instead?

  136. Constant Battle*

    Is anyone else engaged in a constant battle of deciding whether to just spend a weekend knocking out everything on your plate and getting ahead to reduce stress and anxiety versus feeling extremely reluctant to do that because we already dedicate most of our waking hours to work already? What usually wins?

    I have been resisting so far, but it is tempting just be able to cross some of these projects off my list once and for all. Try as I might, I just cannot get them done during my regular work schedule because there are too many other priorities! (I am exempt, so no overtime pay.)

    1. Anon for bad management*

      My company just shifted me from exempt salaried to nonexempt hourly, which has done wonders for my tendencies to worry about work when I’m not technically on the clock. I am currently ignoring a text from a coworker (the answer would be “figure it out yourself” anyway) because I’m maxed out on hours and we’ve been told unapproved OT is grounds for disciplinary action.

      I believe they are legally in the wrong with how my job is classified but I’ve already pushed back a little bit and it went extremely poorly, so I’m keeping my head down and letting other people be target practice for now.

      1. Judy (since 2010)*

        They can’t be legally in the wrong by treating you as covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act. They can treat you that way no matter what. They can only be legally in the wrong to classify you as exempt to FLSA. (This is similar to how FMLA is just unpaid time off with job security, but a company can decide to pay you for the time, or even allow you to take the time before you are eligible.)

    2. Anonymeece*

      I have had this impulse so many times!

      Though to be fair, I’ve found that even knocking them out, they creep back in, so I resist the temptation to come in on weekends unless I’m feeling *really* overwhelmed and it’s things that I’ve been dreading. Truthfully, I know that if I knock them out, there will be more things the next week, and I’ll get stuck in a cycle.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah when I’ve done this, more BS has appeared to fill the void and I was just as stressed in the end. Getting ahead is a myth at my job.

        1. Anonymeece*

          I think it’s a terrible fiction we tell ourselves.

          The only time I have really felt a difference was when I came in one weekend to clean/re-organize my office. I inherited my predecessor’s filing system, which didn’t work for my needs, so I completely redid it. And just cleaning my space felt good and helped energize me.

          Doing actual work? Never seemed to make any impact on the coming weeks.

          1. Lil Fidget*

            I put all my energy into unplugging and enjoying my life outside of work. “I am not my job.” “Work will still be there on Monday.” “There are no filing emergencies” …

  137. WillowTree*

    I am one of those people who has made a lot of lateral moves. Any tips for job searching when this is the case?

    1. Anonymeece*

      If you’re looking in the same field, it can sometimes be a bonus. I worked a few different roles at my college and was able to spin it in interviews as being able to see things holistically and knowing the inner workings of the field very well because I had played multiple roles and got to see things in a little bit different perspective each time.

  138. Boba Feta*

    TLDR: How can I better present myself for full-time jobs either adjacent to my niche field but at a lower level than my degree would betray (because I don’t want to direct or manage anything, legitimately just let me do my job like a freakin’ champion and then go home), OR in something COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DIFFERENT from my entire professional life of the last 15 years because I got a degree in something I cannot do here (and, importantly: don’t really want to do anyway)?

    Long version:
    Long time lurker, first time poster here. I’m struggling with how to anonymize this, but perhaps it might not be a bad thing if folks could guess the industry since many aspects of it are somewhat particular.

    I hold a terminal degree in a niche field that generally expects its graduates to pursue increasingly rarified (read: unattainable) positions with crazy-high production expectations and almost zero ability to control where (geographically) you end up. I struggled mightily with imposter syndrome in the final phases of my graduate program and almost didn’t even finish the degree, but I pushed through (to the detriment of my own mental and physical health) and got the darn thing done. Since then (2013) I’ve undergone near-textbook cycles of continued imposter syndrome, self-flagellation, soul-searching and identity crisis-ing, until I recently, (happily!) realized that I was never meant for the “expected” path of this degree choice, but would be perfectly content to continue practicing “in the field” as I have done the last five years. It is also important to note that I am location bound for family reasons in an area with relatively limited (read: non-existent) full-time work in this niche field.

    But we’re at the point where my part-time income isn’t enough for us to float the bills anymore. We just bought a house (Yay/WAT?) and enrolled our youngling in daycare (YAY!/w$t?), and have a laundry list of other expenses coming down the pipe. While I actually love what I currently do, I cannot sustain the itinerant lifestyle it requires (no permanent office anywhere) nor can it financially sustain us anymore.

    I’ve been selectively applying both to full-time roles in my general field but outside my topic area to no success, as well as to roles in an adjacent field at both higher and lower levels. I think I don’t get considered for higher-level roles (appropriate to my degree) because of my insufficient and no-more-recent than 2003 experience for them, and I think I just got summarily rejected-without-even-an-interview for a lower-level role because I suspect they saw the degree and just went “Nope.”

    I was actually extremely excited about this last one until I got the form rejection email. It was an entry-level role in a field-adjacent division at the near-home location of my current institution. I wrote what I thought was a rock-star letter than acknowledged my training but made a case for why I wanted this particular role and how I would absolutely kill it on the daily and be a great asset to the director and their mission. It was such a let down, and now I’m, once again, depressingly searching Indeed for anything paper-pushy and struggling to figure out how to hide a degree on a resume that has nothing but Niche Field Work on it until as far back as 2004.

    All this and I’m not even sure what my question is. I’m trained for a thing I don’t want to do and couldn’t find a job in nearby anyway, there is no full-time position for the thing I’m currently doing and absolutely love doing and am pretty frakkin’ darn good at, and I have no idea how to get a job, any full-time job, that I would absolutely do at 110% but just so we can not go bust within the next year.

    Help?

    1. Gumby*

      No particular help to offer except encouragement.

      Once upon a time I worked at a internet company where:
      *a guy in QA had his JD
      *someone in our IT/operations group had an MD
      *one person who worked in the admin group was a professional dancer in music videos prior to joining the company
      *half of our user-interface design team had degrees in materials science
      [This just totally gave away the company identity to anyone who worked there.]

      So it *is* possible.

      1. Boba Feta*

        Thank you, Gumby. I just wish I had more confidence in knowing how to get from *here* to *there*. I’m going to keep trying, though!

    2. Cedrus Libani*

      So, you have a part-time job in the field you actually want to be in, but you need a full-time paycheck ASAP. Given this, is there any kind of side hustle you can do in addition to your part-time job? I don’t know if remote work is an option, but if it is, you could likely pick up consulting work. If not, you could tutor? Doesn’t have to be in Niche Field, maybe you can teach SAT, or piano, etc.

      1. Boba Feta*

        I have thought of this, and it is a common route taken by those in my place, but I guess a large part of my issue right now is that I already feel like I’m reaching burn-out levels of stretching myself too thin (I actually have two concurrent and regular part-time contract gigs, on alternating days of the week). So really, apart from the income, I am getting desperate for something M-F 9-5 that will pay me a salary/ living wage, that I can rock like the casbah, but which I can leave at the office and the end of the day and week and maybe get my life and sanity back. But until then, you are absolutely right, I need to maximize the income I can make until I do find something else. Thank you for the reminder/ encouragement!

    3. Grace Less*

      Well…I feel like a lot of companies have roles that are so…niche…that they almost don’t try to fill them. My company is looking for a documentation specialist, but it’s mostly a “learn as you go” role. It requires a smart, detail-oriented person, but he/she could have a PhD or a GED. We don’t even know how to describe it, let alone advertise it. My suggestion is to start talking…not just networking within your industry, but talking to neighbors and daycare parents and find out “what roles are challenging to fill at your office/company.” You might find one that would be really compatible with your skills!

      1. Boba Feta*

        Grace Less, you don’t happen to be located in the SouthEast and willing to interview an internet stranger, would you? ;)

        But you articulated something from the employer side that I strongly identify with myself that I don’t think I fully realized before now: Although it’s far more likely I’ll find full time work outside my field, and I know that I could be really great in almost any role if given a chance to learn the ropes and dig in, I’ve only ever been IN my field, so I don’t even know what I’m looking for to search for or apply for it (assuming it has been posted at all). Your idea to expand my “network” is great- I guess I really need to un-socially-awkward myself and start meeting more people and expand my “network”. Thank you!

        1. Boba Feta*

          Ann O., unless there’s another Bay Area in the SE that does not overlook the Gulf, then, actually, yes!
          !

          But, and please excuse the sheer ignorance of this question: what now? How do internet strangers become less so without the whole rest of the internet also knowing their contact details? I am, shall we say, not so well versed in such matters.

          1. Ann O.*

            I’m on the West Coast, so it sounds like we’re in different Bay Areas. (for talking anonymously, I would create a burner email address to exchange real ones)

            1. Boba Feta*

              Well, shucks. For a while there, I thought lightening had struck!

              And duh about the burner account idea- now that you say it out loud, it makes total sense.

              But in any case: Thank you so much, on behalf of all of us trying to make it work, for your willingness to talk “in person” to an unknown someone from this forum. Yours and the other comments really helped me refocus and I feel ready to start revising my job hunting strategies.

        2. Boba Feta*

          Revision: My Bay *does* overlook the Gulf. I just realized my reply was worded exceptionally poorly, sorry. (It seems that maintaining internet anonymity is much more difficult that I had anticipated)

  139. TV*

    Last Friday, one of my co-workers came back from a meeting with HR and cleared his desk of personal items and left his keys and walked out the door. His manager sent an email over the weekend that he was going to be out this week. I don’t think he’s coming back but has anyone seen someone seemingly walk out of a job but come back after a few days? What was the reception like?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I’ve seen people head home immediately for administrative leave, like they’re whistleblowers or taking leave during an EOC complaint. One time it was FMLA leave. They came back when it was over. How clean is that desk? Cleared out completely?

      1. TV*

        He left his ID, keys and bus pass and took every picture on his desk. His manager is gone this week on vacation and sent us all an email about how this co-worker is out this week, even though the desk looks like he’s permanently gone. My money is the manager is coming up with an explanation for his departure but I could also see her telling him to take a week to reconsider leaving. Tuesday will be interesting…

    2. Is pumpkin a vegetable?*

      My guess is that he’s not coming back, and the manager is buying time to come up with an explanation.

    3. Chaordic One*

      At one point in time, I was in a situation where my employer was purchased by another and our department combined with the one doing the same work at the new company. There was an employee who made transition from the old acquired company to the new aquirer company but then quit after putting in weeks of overtime.

      His supervisor (who was out of the loop) called him and they brought the employee back and he didn’t have to work overtime after that. Shortly after that the supervisor was fired, and the employee ended up quitting after two or three months anyway, only this time he had a new job lined up to go to.

  140. Morning Glory*

    I’ve found myself in a frustrating situation where I have a high degree of accountability, little power to actually do anything, and a bottle-necking, often-travelling project-lead in a different department who is often unclear, and then gets annoyed with me for misunderstanding her.

    This morning, for example, she told me she wanted to move XX into the role we were discussing, and out of a consultancy (her exact words), which she’d asked me to clear with Grandboss a few weeks ago. I told her Grandboss had vetoed that because reasons, but approved more funding for him as a consultant.

    She got angry and said she had never wanted to move him into role as employee, because (same reasons as grandboss) and had always meant increasing his funding, but by even more than Grandboss approved, and this has been outstanding for weeks and I need to get it done. I thought I had gotten it done, weeks ago, when she’d asked, and only just learned in her angry email that I had not fulfilled her wishes to the letter.

    I am beyond frustrated that I was supposed to deduce that she actually meant “let’s keep XX as a consultant, and extend her contract to fulfill the responsibilities that would have been done by this role.” How is that “moving her out of a consultancy”? How is it my fault that I did not interpret her words to mean the exact opposite of what she wrote? This person is miles above me, and I’ve never seen her admit that she’s wrong, but I have seen her double down on weird things with others, like insisting we’d never agreed to a deliverable that we’d discussed on several calls, and put in writing, and gotten approved.

    I don’t have a real question here, I’m just frustrated, but would welcome advice from anyone who has dealt with similar people who are much higher up the ladder.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Ask her to send you all instructions via email so you have them in writing so when she pulls the “that’s not what I said”, you have proof.

        1. Morning Glory*

          The frustrating part was that this was all via email. She wrote those exact words in her email and then after I responded she said something along the lines ‘sorry if I wasn’t clear, I never intended to bring XX on as an employee, I meant expand XX’s consultancy’ with no hint of acknowledgement that is was not a clarity issue, it was the opposite of her first email (still in the thread!) saying “move XX out of the consultancy.”

          She says “sorry if I wasn’t clear” a lot, including in person, with the clear subtext “sorry you’re too stupid to understand what I meant.”

  141. Cat*

    I’m a lawyer who just lost a big case. Any suggestions for moving on from this? I kind of just want to smash something.

    1. Another Lawyer*

      Aw, I’m sorry. Give yourself a day or two, take the learning experiences where you can, but then put it in the rear view mirror. One of my mentors would always say that “he was on the treadmill, so he couldn’t look back or he’d fall” It’s kept me forward focused over the years.

    2. Dankar*

      My partner had a really rough day in court last week, and he’s still looking for stuff to smash now. He’s found that going to the gym (esp. weight lifting) has been really helpful.

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      Find some ways to vent your anger/frustration! Go somewhere where you can yell loudly; (I don’t like advocating wasting food, but) get some fruit and throw it against a wall); punching bag; etc.

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        Slightly random, but if you need fruit to throw, ask the produce department of your local grocery store for any bruised fruit that they will be throwing away. Tell them it’s for your pet rabbit. They’ll most likely give it to you for free.

    4. Anono-me*

      There are parks where you can operate heavy equipment and one of the special add ons is smashing a car with a bull dozer.

  142. Batshua*

    Emailed local EEO (on jobsite) and state EEO person. Local EEO is useless. Can’t answer any questions and just says I should ask for a new accomodation but has no ideas on what that would be. I did ask my ADHD therapist to write me a letter if for no other reason than to have documentation on file.

    In my email to state EEO I asked them if work was allowed to use disciplinary measures against me for things related to my disability given that they know it’s a disability and I’m working on the situation.

    It seems like it should be kind of illegal or something?

    I’m asking them if I have any recourse.

    2. BRR*

      IANAL but my understanding from when I was having work issues due to my ADHD is they can discipline you if it’s a core requirement of the job. They have to try to make a reasonable accommodation but it cannot be an undue hardship. If that seems vague, it’s because it is. If you need accommodation suggestions have you tried searching “*condition* workplace accommodations?”

  143. Teapot librarian*

    I’m supposed to be proofreading a manual for a colleague. I’m accidentally editing the whole thing. Oops?

    1. Snark*

      It me. I edit the crap out of other people’s technical writing. Sorry not sorry, your writing sucks.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I always ask people when they want me to “look over” something — do you want me to fix the grammar and punctuation or go for style as well. Inevitably, I default to the whole enchilada, but I can try to restrain myself to just grammar and punctuation.

    3. Girl fridu7*

      It helps me to remember that people have styles that are important to them? And try reading it backwards and proofreading it, or going phrase by phrase. Sometimes that stops the editing!

  144. Marketing Dinosaur*

    Does anyone have advice on how to both research salaries for remote positions, and then how to handle conversations with a prospective employer since they hold even more cards than the average employer? I feel like there’s very limited information out there on remote salaries, and given that I live in a market that generally pays lower (though I am currently paid well), I would be screwed if the company puts more emphasis on the local market’s wages when they take their compensation packages into consideration. I’ve done some Googling with little luck; curious if anyone had personal anecdotes.

  145. silencer*

    I’ve been at my first professional job after college for a few months now. One of my biggest struggles is communication.

    A new guy has just started and he’s been seated in a cubicle directly across from me. I’ve discovered he has a habit of (loudly) whispering his thoughts. He particularly likes to accentuate his “S” so I constantly hear “SHHH…SHHHH” when I try to tune it out. Our cubicle group is pretty separated from others so I think I’m the only one noticing and affected by this.

    I’m hesitant to say something to him since he’s only been here a week and I don’t want one of my first interactions with him to be me policing his behavior. Any advice?

    1. Drew*

      If he’s verbalizing thoughts to where you can hear them, you can legitimately reply. Or say, “I’m sorry, I couldn’t catch that. Could you speak up, please?”

      It is possible he doesn’t realize he’s doing it, and then you can have the “I thought you were talking to me, you probably didn’t realize you were mumbling” conversation.

      Or you could just get headphones.

      1. silencer*

        The thoughts that he verbalizes tend to be him cursing at whatever he’s doing so I kind of cringe at the idea of asking him to speak up haha. I’ll definitely try both your suggestions though! Unfortunately, I have a hard time focusing on work when I’m listening to something so I’ll try earplugs instead. Thanks for the reply.

        1. Book Badger*

          They go through batteries like a sick person goes through tissues, but noise-cancelling headphones (even when not plugged into anything and only used for their noise-cancelling properties) are amazing.

          1. Drew*

            I have a set of over-the-ear headphones that was rechargeable (designed for hardcore gamers but work well for me). Bonus: they’re big enough that people actually notice that I’m wearing them, and some of them will leave me alone and send email instead.

  146. De Minimis*

    I’ve been at my new job a few weeks. I overall like it, but don’t have a lot to do sometimes and I’m still trying to find my feet. I tend to be somewhat of an avoidant personality and that makes it hard for me to ask for help or to take initiative.

    Also, the person who has mainly been training me is somewhat new in their own role and I often get a sense of “the blind leading the blind” when we’re having one-on-one training. One of the issues is that English is not their first language and I think they sometimes have difficulty with communicating information.

    I’ve been the person who got stuck with training the newbie and it’s no fun. I know probably the main reason they’ve been tasked with training me is because others don’t want to do it. Anyway, it’s not the best situation, but I am thankful each day that I’m no longer in my previous job!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m almost at the 4 month mark at my new job and I am still struggling with the lack of enough to do. I’ve discussed it with my direct supervisor and her supervisor (who directly oversees my specific function so it’s weird). DS has several projects she would like my assistance with, but she needs the okay from her supervisor. No idea why she is hesitant to give me more when by all accounts I’m performing well.

      1. De Minimis*

        The good news is I finally got access to some of our financial information systems late this week and there’s a project that I will be able to work on starting next week where stuff has gotten behind, and I’ve been told that will give me a lot to work on in the coming weeks.

  147. Anon for this (again)*

    I’m connecting with a friend this weekend who recently didn’t hire me. How do I make it clear I’m okay with her decision, don’t necessarily need to discuss it, and move forward?

    Background:

    A good friend in my professional circle recently suggested I apply for a job for which she’s the hiring manager. I went through the interview process (multiple interviews; exercises to show skills, etc.). They all went really well and I received wonderful feedback, but I wasn’t the successful candidate.

    I know I was a front-running candidate. I also know my friend has great respect for my skills, as I do for hers. Therefore although I’m disappointed not to get the job, I trust that she made the decision that was best for her organization and, ultimately, for me.

    When I received the rejection from HR, I replied thanking them for the experience, wishing the organization and the successful candidate well, and asked if they had any feedback for me for future interviews.

    I also emailed my friend directly on her personal email, congratulating her on a successful search, wishing her well, and hoping things were going well personally. (I mentioned specific things that are going on in her world thay I know because we’re friends.)

    I didn’t receive feedback from either HR nor my friend. I’m not too concerned because they’re not obligated to give me feedback.

    This all happened about a month ago. I’ve put the interview and job behind me and haven’t given it a second thought. Except for now, because I will be seeing my friend this weekend.

    This is the first time we’ll be connecting since the interview process. I’m sure we’ll talk about work, which would include her talking about her department and the changes in her organization (including the new hire).

    I don’t really feel like taking about my interview. Of course I would have appreciated getting feedback about the interview, but I feel that time has passed. I’ve accepted that I won’t get it. I also don’t want to get professional feedback in a social setting.

    What I’d prefer is to connect as we’ve done previously, without mention of the interview. I feel I can be neutral (even supportive!) of my friend and the successful hire and be genuinely interested in their work and success of their department.

    It seems weird not to acknowledge my interview, but equally weird to talk about it.

    Any suggestions?

    1. Kathenus*

      You have a great attitude about all of this – kudos. Maybe either reach out in advance, or at the beginning once you get together, and just say something along the lines of “It was great interviewing with your company, and I wish you the best of luck with your new hire. I don’t want there to be any awkwardness at all over this, so let’s just proceed with our friendship as usual” – obviously wordsmithing to what works for you. Addressing it proactively might be a good way to just file it away and not have it lingering over your friendship.

    2. Drew*

      Send a quick note if you can beforehand, or just throw the subject on the table early on: “I don’t want today to be weird, so let me address the elephant quickly: I know you well enough to know you made the best choice for the job and I don’t have any hard feelings. You’re still my friend and I want to enjoy today without any tension hanging over us, so I’m bringing this up to dismiss it.” If it were me, I think I’d say, “But just for today, let’s put in a ‘no work talk’ rule,” because that’s likely to be a bit awkward no matter what.

  148. Getting ahead of myself*

    I am an architect, working (in a junior position on a large team) on a headquarters project for a Fortune 500 company, my husband has an interview with that company.
    The position he’s interviewing for would have no interaction with me as a consultant/contractor to the company – he might work in the same building on a different floor from where I’m doing site visits or attending meetings.
    Is this a conflict of interest? Do I say something to my boss? Does he say something in his interview?

    2. CAA*

      If you work for an architecture firm that’s contracted to the large company, there’s no conflict of interest and neither of you needs to say anything right now. This is like if you were part of the firm that designed Apple’s new headquarters and your husband was applying to be an iPhone engineer at the same time. There’s just no relationship between these tasks and he might not get hired anyway.

      If you’re friendly with your boss, then you might mention that your husband is applying for a job with your client. If your husband gets the job, then you definitely should mention it to your boss — not in a “here’s something I need to formally disclose” way — but just as a quick heads-up in case you or your boss run into him while you’re there, or if you share a last name with him and someone there asks if you’re related.

  149. The Other CC*

    TGIF! And I get TWO whole days off this week, hurray!

    This week, my supervisor at one job went home with shingles (so I’ve been answering the phones, eek!), my grand-boss fell through the sheetrock in her attic and got some nasty scrapes. Yesterday in the last hour of business at my other job, my boss had to drive to a vendor to pick up the work they finished but didn’t deliver, put the finishing touches on it, and then hand-deliver it to the customer at like 9 pm before they left town today. Oh, and someone brought in four more pieces yesterday that they want turned around in less than a week. Oh, AND now we have photographers/video coming early next week for some last-minute news stories in our new location, so we have to delay moving in some of our stuff even further and make it look pretty even with contractors still there. I’m hoping nothing goes dramatically wrong today!

  150. Flower*

    I’m a grad student who just in the past couple weeks chose my dissertation lab, and I’m still getting settled in my lab space. Most of the workspace I’ll be using/that will be “mine” isn’t anything I can really personalize (it’s lab space, after all, and mostly driven by the needs of the work), but this is the first time I’ll have a desk that’s mine and will be mine for… however long it take me to complete my degree (let’s estimate 4, possibly a bit shorter, likely a bit longer).

    I have no idea what to do with this space. Over time I’m sure it’ll fill up naturally (filled up lab notebooks and such), but for the time being, now that I’ve gotten rid of all the stuff left by the last person who was here, it’s really empty. What should I/shouldn’t I put into the space?

      1. Flower*

        +1

        Thanks, that’s a useful link! My desk is actually pretty big and there are two ledges above it I could fill with stuff if I really wanted to. I think most of the things on that list are fine in the lab setting, but since my desk is basically in the wet lab space, I definitely couldn’t have live plants.

    3. Murphy*

      Put in something fun, even if it’s small, or fun office supplies. You’re going to be in there a lot.

  151. Red Reader*

    I came back from lunch to a crazy clusterf**k. I have, in the last two hours, solved it almost singlehandedly. My Jabber status is currently “Eating spaghetti and saving the world.”

  152. Pants!*

    Where is the line between “leggings” and “ponte pants”? I have a few pairs of the latter that aren’t skintight, are totally opaque, and would look/feel strange worn under a dress. That said, they don’t have any zippers or pockets. I always pair these with flowy tunic of about fingertip length, but…leggings don’t have pockets or zippers either. Any advice or recommendations for stretchy-but-clearly-pants bottoms?

    1. savannnah*

      Most ponte pants have a real seam that is way more noticeable than leggings and that’s usually how I can tell the difference.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I have a pair of ponte pants that have a seam but are in all other ways leggings. There’s not a clear line!

      But your pants seem to be clearly pants, not leggings — it’s mostly the fit, I think.

    3. Jemima Bond*

      I’d say the difference is in the fabric. Ponte di Roma is a double knit fabric, which is a thicker, more stable fabric than the thin cotton-Lycra jersey used for leggings. So if you’re a sewist, ponte is great because you can sew it the same as woven fabric and get a lovely snuggly slightly stretchy garment. Whereas cotton jersey is a pain in the derrière and badoings all over the place, and needs specialist stitches or preferably an overlocker (serger).
      So I guess the difference between your ponte pants and your leggings is that the ponte pants are thicker and sturdier (and, I imagine, more flattering) than leggings. And they’ll last better. The amount of next-weeks-washing I’ve seen on my commute to work, on the bottoms of women with too-short tops on, whose leggings have worn thin…

  153. Win Condition*

    I wanted to get an outside perspective on something happening at work. I work for a small nonprofit. My salary is not fully funded, which my employer handles by having me work part-time in the nonprofit’s store. The remainder of my salary comes from the store’s budget and my work saves them from needing to hire another part-time worker. The goal is to find funding for the remainder of my salary so that I can work full-time on my regular duties and stop working in the store, which is something that I very much want. To this end I have been attaching rates for staff to grants we apply to and looking into capacity-building grants.
    One of my projects involves finding funding for a big construction project for the nonprofit. I obtained the majority of the funding needed through a grant, but we still needed a little more to cover the full costs. My director decided to appeal to the town for a grant to fully fund my salary, then take the amount awarded out of my salary and apply it to the construction project to cover the cost. I think her logic is that the town money did go toward my salary, we just then took a different part out for the construction.
    Obviously I’m annoyed that nothing about my situation changed despite finally finding someone willing to fund it, but aside from that, is this even ethical? This seems very deceptive to me, and I can’t imagine the town would be happy about how we handled this.

    1. Murphy*

      I don’t think I know of a situation where it’s not unethical to use grant funds to for something other than the purpose for which they were awarded.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      So, if I’m reading this correctly, you’ll still be part time at your real job/part time in the store, and ALL the money from the grant would go into this other project instead?? (What I think you’re saying)

      Or would they use this money to ensure that you have just one full-time position, and take the money they were paying you for part time work and put that toward the construction project? (A more ethical solution.)

      IANAL, but in working with grants, every single one has tracking and outcomes attached to it. If you’re not working 40 hours per week at the job they’re paying you to do, and you’re not providing the outcomes that job would expect, your organization is likely to have some major issues down the road. At the least, they’ll may have to reimburse the money to the town? At most: legal ramifications for fraud?

    3. OperaArt*

      Definitely unethical, possibly illegal given that the money would be coming from a government entity. You’d need to check with a lawyer.

  154. savannnah*

    A bit of a job searching conundrum. I moved to the west coast and have been looking for a new job for the last 6 months. I was previously a medical simulationist at the directors level back at a hospital network in NYC and have been looking for similar work out here. I’m finding almost all of the same positions here require a RN degree, which I don’t have and haven’t bumped into back east. RN’s used to be informally required about 20 years ago as this field was becoming established but have since falling way out of fashion. How do I approach those open positions? So far I know when I apply, I’m getting put in the No pile due to the lack of RN degree. This is even the case when I have some networking connections so it’s very frustrating.

  155. Amber Rose*

    As an aside from my earlier post, it continues to baffle me that I work for a company that specializes in developing and selling technology that I can barely understand, but I’m somehow a technological genius because I can use a website to merge two PDF pages.

  156. TK*

    Tax withholding question for the US. Somehow my husband and I always end up needing to pay taxes each year, often in the range of $5 – $10k. We’re both withholding from our paychecks to pay into taxes throughout the year, so I’m a little confused about why this would be happening. What should we indicate on W4s in order to come out more even (either a smaller payout, or even a small refund) around tax time?

    If it helps, his job is higher-income (around $160k) and I am $75k. We have no children or dependents. Bonuses and stock options and other things vary year-to-year. Thanks for any advice!!

    2. Enough*

      Look at your last returns. Possible solutions below alone or in combination might help. But it might make sense to make an appointment with a tax accountant to get ideas.
      1) Simplest thing is to take somewhere between the average and the highest payment and divide by number of pay periods and have employer take out that much extra. 2) Change w-4 to reflect zero deductions. 3) Not sure with the change in tax rates and brackets if this still makes a difference but change w-4 to take out at single rate. 4) Start paying quarterly on extra money like the bonus and stock options.

    3. Lady Kelvin*

      We had the same problem when we both started real jobs (as opposed to ~20k a year grad student salaries). We just have 0 dependents on our W4s rather than the typical 1 if you are married. That means we sometimes get a refund, but since we also both freelance a bit on the side, or additional self-employment taxes are generally already covered.

    4. CAA*

      The IRS has an app which can give you the best settings for your W-4s. Google “2018 Withholding Calculator” to find it. You will need your most recent pay stubs and you’ll have to make your best guess about bonuses and other income for the rest of this year. Fill in the blanks and at the end it will tell you exactly what to put on lines 5 and 6 for each of your W-4s for the rest of this year to get you as close to $0 as possible.

      Come January, you need to go through the exercise again and file new W-4s for 2019 in order to avoid withholding too much and getting a huge refund in 2020.

    5. Bea*

      Use the withholding calculator mentioned! It’ll break down your allowances and extra withheld.

      Or tbh if you’re paying 10k. Withhold an extra 384.61 from his check if he’s paid biweekly. There’s your math. Take what you owe and divide by 26 checks.

  157. Can’t Sit Still*

    Please bear with me, I’m not thinking clearly right now. I am at the end of a much anticipated vacation that did not turn out as planned. I ended up having to put my oldest cat to sleep and had to cancel my trip. Needless to say, this has not been a great vacation.

    I was completely burned out before my vacation and now I’m going back without getting any rest or relaxation. I was also on break from my masters capstone, with permission from my advisor. Work is going to be crazy for the rest of the year and I have three months to finish my capstone.

    I fell down the stairs at work just before my vacation and while I’ve been released for normal activity, I still have twinges in my neck and tailbone (nothing broken or torn, just strained and bruised). However, our workers compensation company called me multiple times in the middle of my cat’s euthanasia appointment. They called over and over and over until I was ready to scream. I had my phone on silent, not do not disturb, because I just…forgot, because I was distracted, and I couldn’t, in the moment remember that DND existed. I thought his meds just needed to be adjusted, but his body was shutting down.

    Anyway, my question: How do I cope with work and school when I go back? I don’t have any more vacation time and I can’t take any more time off from school. Also, nosy questions from coworkers about how my vacation went?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I have no good advice for you, but I’m so sorry about your cat. Many internet hugs & thoughts for you!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Aw! I’m sorry about your kitty, all of *that* sounds horrible.
      The best I can say is to try and ease back into work. Go home at your normal time (8 hours only) your first week back. Go to bed early at night. Can you work from home at all? Sometimes even 1 day can help you catch up if you waste time commuting.

      For the nosey coworkers you can always say: “Unfortunately my vacation got cut short, but I’d rather not talk about it.” Rinse and repeat as necessary.

      1. Mostlylurking*

        My deepest sympathies on the death of your cat.
        Agree with MissDisplaced, you don’t owe people any explanation.
        Would it make sense in your company culture to send out an email to let people know you had to cancel your vacation to deal with some difficult issues and would rather not talk about it? Or can you ask trusted coworkers to run interference for you?
        On several occasions we’ve had administrators send out an email that someone’s family member has died and the person has requested that people not ask about it so that their work life can be normal and a refuge.
        Hope you recover from your injuries and get satisfaction from workmen’s comp.

    3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      What a horrible experience for you. I’m sorry about your kitty.

      What in the world are people thinking when they call over and over like this? Clearly if someone doesn’t answer they are unavailable. I don’t understand why people do this.

  158. darlingpants*

    Anyone have input about putting activities with controversial names on resumes/CVs? I produced and directed the Vagina Monologues during grad school and I’m proud of it and the work I put in, and we raised $800 for local shelters, but I’m worried that ATS systems will catch the word “vagina” and filter my resume, or that it’ll be given to someone who won’t know what that is (I imaging my grandfather reading my resume and shudder) and they’ll take me out of the running. My sister pointed out that her thesis title will literally have the word vagina in it and its a scientific word and that stuff shouldn’t happen, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Thoughts?

    1. Mananana*

      Is the name of the production necessary? Couldn’t you simply put “produced/directed theatrical event” and not include the name?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t honestly know if these systems filter out those words. I wouldn’t think so, but…
      you could say Produced and directed production of “The V. Monologues” which raised …

    3. OperaArt*

      I’ve always used “V. Monologues” for that very reason on my acting website and resume. Those automated tools are not nuanced.

    4. LilySparrow*

      Or you could put the name of the organization or theater. The point is that you were successful at fundraising and managing a complex project and a team. Unless you’re applying to theater or film jobs, I don’t think the title of the show is particularly relevant.

  159. Coyote*

    TL;DR: Received a snarky email from co-worker – do I need to approach my boss?

    I am a tech support specialist for my local government. I work with one additional full-time specialist “Dave” and together we manage 3 student interns. Our job is hectic and we’re often overwhelmed with work but overall we work together to meet our deadlines. We also work with “Carl” who was previously in Dave’s position before moving to a different role in an IT sub-department 2 years ago.

    Carl’s duties occasionally overlap with tech support due to managing some internal systems, but since transitioning to his new position he seems to think he is our manager. My boss knows about the issues and humors Carl because of his knowledge and experience which only bolsters his behavior IMO. Since he was previously in our department Carl scrutinizes everything that we do and often interjects his opinion into our work (such as, “You’re not supposed to do it *that* way, you need to do it *this* way!” when both ways will resolve the issue and it’s merely his preference.) Dave is not a stellar employee by any means (and has some glaring issues that management won’t acknowledge which deserve a PIP at the very least ) but also feels very insecure in his position due to the constant backlash he gets from Carl.

    There was an issue Wednesday evening where an equipment request for a conference was stuck in the request system and never reached us at support. Carl was here after hours and the end user came to the IT Dept. asking for help and wondered why the equipment wasn’t set up. Carl called my cell phone and asked if I knew anything about it – I said no, but that I would find out why the equipment wasn’t set up. In the history of my 5 years of employment I have never forgotten to set up an after hours equipment request. Thursday morning is when I discovered the system had malfunctioned. Later on that morning myself, Dave, and our interns received the following email from Carl – note that this is the actual email with personal information redacted:

    “[User], from [Department] made a request to have a laptop setup in the conference room on 8/29/2018 at 5pm, which did not happen. He came up to IT at around 5:45 pm looking from someone to setup a laptop. Luckily I was still here and ended up setting up the laptop for him along with the TVs.

    Please have things setup for people in the conference rooms, especially when the meeting is taking place after hours. On call personnel have lives outside of work, so please be considerate of our time. Next time I am might not be around to resolve the issue and more than likely that person will report things not going well to their department head and then it will more than likely get reported to [IT Director].”

    I can understand a brief “Team, this situation happened today” email but I feel like the one above was inappropriate.

    Am I blowing this out of proportion? Do I need to ignore it? Notify my boss? A lot of the issues with Carl are blown off as, “Oh that’s *just* Carl.” so I don’t know if I’m over reacting.

    1. Murphy*

      I think the bigger issue is the “Oh that’s just Carl” response to his behavior.

      Yeah, I think that email was out of line. It makes it sound like it as someone’s fault for forgetting, when that’s not what happens. (And that email would be rude even if someone did forget.) I’m not sure that it would rise to the level of notifying your boss by itself, but if there are other issues, it might be worth it.

      1. LQ*

        I agree that it sounds like this one thing isn’t a problem, but the fact that Carl is allowed to continue to behave in a manner which isn’t appropriate on an ongoing basis and it’s dismissed as that’s just how he is. No. He’s a professional and he needs to act like one. This is not the behavior of a professional. (At least that’s the conversation I’ve had with my boss about my Carl. It doesn’t help much because Carl reports through another chain o command, but I at least know I have my boss supporting me now, he absolutely got why Carl was a problem when it was presented as a “he needs to behave like a professional.”)

    2. LGC*

      I mean…the wording is tough, but fair. And in isolation, I know I’ve sent messages that strongly worded to coworkers who seem to not be getting it. But the message is the least of your problems, in my opinion.

      I think you guys can escalate this, depending on how supportive your boss is of you and Dave. There’s two issues here:

      1) The interns shouldn’t have been included in the message, in my opinion. They don’t report to him or really work with him it sounds like. Plus, I’m guessing they don’t have the authority to fill tickets on their own because THEY’RE INTERNS.

      If it were just that, I’d tell you to thank him for his concern, but to run everything between you and Dave going forward and not directly reprimand the interns. But your biggest problem is:

      2) Carl is bullying Dave, and it sounds like it’s affecting his work. Dave isn’t great at his job, but you’re right – Carl isn’t his manager and shouldn’t constantly be on his case and criticizing his work. (Heck, if Carl WAS Dave’s manager, his behavior would be just as problematic.) But I think that’s something that Dave needs to take the lead on addressing, since it affects him.

      1. Coyote*

        Hi LGC, thanks for your response!

        Apologies if I sound defensive but I don’t think his response was fair. Due to an error in our internal system that dealt with the approval process on the end user’s side we were never notified that equipment was needed. He went from 0 to 100 with his response.

    3. Kathenus*

      This doesn’t help the larger Carl problem, but maybe a reply to all on that message (and cc’ing anyone additional needed) noting that an investigation was done and showed that the reservation system malfunctioned resulting in the request never going through, and what steps have been or need to be taken to solve this issue.

      While you’re not directly addressing Carl’s snarky and snooty email, you’re addressing the actual problem that caused the issue, and showing that Carl’s description/assumption of what happened was incorrect – without ever having to say it outright.

      He sounds tiring to deal with, I’m sorry.

      1. Coyote*

        Hi! I actually did that and his response to me was, “Well, aren’t you just the hero now.”

        Incredibly tiresome. :( This is motivating me to find another job, at the very least.

        1. Kathenus*

          I’m snarky enough to (want to) respond to him with a “thanks, nice of you to say”, or “yup, super-hero me” or something. But that probably wouldn’t be constructive.

    4. Coyote*

      Thanks all for your feedback!

      It truly is a “big picture” issue when I step back and look at it once I am not so emotional. The frequency of these incidents make me forget it’s not the individual things he does, but the fact that he’s allowed to act unprofessionally time and time again.

  160. Decima Dewey*

    The local all news station I wake up to has a block of recruiting service ads in the morning, promising the candidates firms need. One has a voice saying “I’m a sales director with 10 years experience, who’s fluent in Japanese.”

    I find myself thinking up smart alecky additions: “And in my last three jobs the admins did a conga line around the office the day I gave notice.”

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’m pretty sure I hear that same ad. Or one very much like it. All the example voices sound like incredibly insufferable people.

  161. OhGee*

    My boss is a micromanager who doesn’t know how to delegate or cede control over projects. As a result, my work (mostly comms and other deadline-driven stuff for a nonprofit) is repeatedly delayed. It has been like this for the nearly 4 years I’ve worked here. And no, there is no solution – I’ve tried literally everything, and I’m interviewing for a job I really want at another organization next week. But today it highlights why I hate working with outside vendors. We’re working with some great folks to put together a project that includes lots of text we provide. It has been in the works for months, and a few days ago I got the final draft.

    Now, my boss has had, I think, four opportunities to throughly review the text. I’ve told him not to proofread earlier drafts, because I knew it’d be better to have him, a person who can never meet review deadlines but won’t give up his right to review, identify content changes that are one step up from things like missing commas.

    Well, here we are, less than two hours before the end of my week. Boss was late with the review. I get through some meetings and look at his comments (I’ve already sent proofreading comments to the vendor, because I figured this would be minor stuff and wanted them to have time to get started on that first.)

    Nope. I’ve been rewriting the text for the project for the last three hours. He’s been given multiple opportunities to review this project since early June, and the final (LOL) text has been part of the material he has reviewed at least twice the beginning of July. Now I have to send this to the vendor, adding several more hours of work on their end, rather than maybe an hour, and I have to resist throwing my boss under the bus in the process (which I know might temporarily make me feel better, but wouldn’t accomplish anything positive). UGH

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Ugh! I’ve had that boss. You can’t fix them.
      They end up causing delays, last minute fire drill drama and WILLFULLY incurring higher costs to the company. They will cite all sorts of crazy reasons for this, but basically it’s just a power play that makes them feel important. Because all could have been avoided.

      I once said to that boss, “Do you understand this will cost $XX,XXX more to incorporate your changes at this stage?” To which he actually did say, “It’s my prerogative.”
      They are sad, small minded people.
      You need to get out when you can because working for someone like this can tank your career at that company and your reputation (your projects will always be over-budget and you will get the blame for not “managing up” effectively, you may lose bonuses because of cost management, good vendors won’t work with you, etc.).

      1. TypityTypeType*

        “A power play that makes them feel important” — bingo! I worked for one of these guys, and it was clear he just really enjoyed the drama of creating crises and seeing the people who worked for him racing around in a panic.

        And if anyone protested or pointed out a problem ? A sanctimonious “I don’t care. It needs to be right.” You can imagine how that went over with people who’d been begging for feedback for weeks..

        MissDisplaced is correct: You can’t fix people who operate this way. I hope your weekend (and your vendor’s) isn’t wrecked by this — and good luck with your interview!

  162. I edit everything*

    I am an editor and writer and have worked with a variety of content, from scholarly religious books to the trashiest romance novels. I’m also a good writer in my own right. I’m freelancing right now, but sometimes I think it might be nice to get out of my basement office and go work with other people again, which would have the added benefit of a regular paycheck. I live in an area with zero proper editing jobs, so I’ve been thinking that maybe getting a paralegal certificate might open up a different path. A friend said she’d looked into the idea herself and found that lawyers are taking jobs that used to be the domain of paralegals, because there are too many new law school grads (apparently lots of people went back to school during the recession). Does anyone here have any experience with this? There are more paralegal job listings locally than editor listings, but I don’t know anything about the supply of paralegals/law school grads that I might be up against. Would it be worth the time and money? The program I’d go through is typically a 2-4 semester program, so not a grad-school sized investment, but more than a continuing ed course.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      No, not with the legal aspect, other than having my work go through legal reviews by companies.
      But a lot of companies do need technical writers for everything from white papers to blog posts, social content, email marketing, etc. You could probably move in-house with a communications or content development position. Of course sometimes in that area you might be up against traditional journalists.

      2. I edit everything*

        Sorry, which question does your “no” answer?
        From what I’ve noticed, companies looking for technical writers want their writers to have experience in their particular technology. Which I don’t have. In-house content creation positions are extremely rare, or they’re looking for a complete package–not only writing, but also video creation, graphic design, web design, etc. I’m not a visual person and would suck at those other aspects.

  163. Feeling like garbage*

    I just discovered that my old company posted an ad for my old job. I had emailed them a couple months ago to tell them I was moving back to the area this month and asked if they expected to have any openings but was told no. And now I’ve found this ad that was posted last week. I feel like total garbage and expect to spend the rest of the day crying on the bathroom floor.

    1. Mananana*

      Is it possible that at the time you contacted them, that they didn’t have any openings and didn’t expect to?

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Yeah, don’t read too much into it. Posting could’ve been done by someone who had no idea like a recruiter.
        If you’re interested, APPLY!

    2. Emi.*

      Oh my gosh, this doesn’t mean anything! Please pick yourself up, dry your eyes, apply, and have some ice cream.

    3. Alianora*

      I’m sorry you’re feeling so bad. I really think it’s unlikely that this reflects on how your company feels about you at all. A lot can change in a couple months; they probably didn’t have any idea they’d need to re-hire for your old job when you contacted them. Or they may have assumed you would be looking for a more senior position and wouldn’t be interested in the old job.

      You might be in too fragile of a mental state to do this. But if you feel up to it, there would be nothing wrong with contacting your company again to mention that you would be interested in applying for your old job.

  164. Versazy*

    My employer just purchased new Human Resources software. The software has a place for employees to set career goals and for managers to evaluate how employees are doing in meeting their goals. Problem is that I am actively looking for another job, but my boss and HR is really pushing people to document their goals. My main goal is to leave the company, but I don’t feel completely comfortable mentioning that to my boss.

    Anyone have any advice on what I should do here or how to handle these type of career conversations when you basically have one foot out of the door?

    1. Mananana*

      I certainly wouldn’t tell them you’re planning your escape route. Instead, why not tell them you want to improve your skills in X? That could be mastering Excel, learning a new software, really anything that’s pertinent to your current job (and would look good on a resume, too).

      1. Versazy*

        Thanks for the reply! Problem is that I’m a senior level person, and the next steps on the career ladder are leadership positions that I’m not interested in. In fact my boss and grand boss are nudging me along that path. I’m guessing it would prompt more questions from my boss if I wrote something like generic when they have other expectations of me.

        1. It's me*

          What kind of skills would you need in an advanced position at your current company? Make the goals about public speaking or presentations or other skills that you’d need to develop in order to hold a higher position, but don’t make a goal that flat out says “I want to become a director of X”. That way they aren’t tipped off that you see no future there and will probably satisfy them until you find something better.

        2. Close Bracket*

          Since you have no idea how long it will take you to find a new job, think about what you want to do for the next year at your current job. Put that in your goals.

  165. D*

    What is everyone’s opinion on headhunters? Are they truly helpful in getting a job or are we better off going directly through the company?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Some companies will only hire through a headhunter/agency, so it really depends on what is standard in your industry.

      1. MsCende*

        Related, how do you vet headhunters for quality and usefulness?

        My husband and I just moved to Minnesota from Seattle, and while his job in Seattle has been fabulous about offering him remote work while we get settled, we’re nearly at the end of the agreed on time for that work.

        He’s very high level technical (software artchitect / principal), and those kinds of jobs are rarely advertised on, for ex, Monster. How do we find the right people to work with?

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          In that situation, I’d search for a tech specific firm. Reputable ones will not charge any sort of fee for their services to the job seeker.

          Some questions to ask:
          What companies have you worked with in the past?
          Do you strictly do contract work (short or long term) or do you do evaluation hire/temp to perm placements?
          What percentage of each of the above do you do?
          What are the terms for converting to employee status with the client?

          I’m sure there are probably some good tech questions to ask too, but that’s not in my wheelhouse so I can’t really help there :)

  166. no name this time*

    How/should I push back when my grandboss weirdly misrepresents me to customers? It’s only happened once to me, but does happen to some of my (likewise under 30) coworkers. I had a completely unprecedented tech problem while working with a customer that ended up with what appeared to be the complete wipe of their own USB drive. The customer was understandably upset, but remained professional, and I worked like crazy to find a fix. There was some back and forth, I was definitely externalizing my stress to coworkers (e.g. “this is the woooorrssst!”) and eventually I let my grandboss know that there might be a complaint about me due to this issue. The customer actually ended up coming back in to talk to my grandboss. Despite the fact the issue wasn’t solved he complimented me on my efforts. My grandboss weirdly chose this moment to say that I was “almost in tears” over it. I felt kind of patronized/infantilized by that, and like it actually took away from the real, professional effort I put into solving the problem. I haven’t said anything, since we were in front of a customer at the time, and then didn’t know what to say. At the time I just laughed awkwardly at her comment to try de-escalate.

    1. Anonymeece*

      Ugh, yes, I have had similar things where my boss said she had to “push me out of the nest” when I was a. actively looking for a job because I hated my current one, and b. she’s not my parent or mother bird.

      In that scenario, take a very light tone and laugh it off maybe? Like, “Oh, I wasn’t that far gone, but definitely frustrated!” or something. The key would be to have a very, very breezy tone and make a joke out of it, and sometimes, you might just have to keep quiet if the room isn’t right for it.

    2. Alianora*

      That’s super frustrating. I haven’t dealt with it in a work context, but my dad does a similar thing to me all the time. I’ll be talking about my job search to extended family members or something and he’ll jump in with a comment that makes it sound like I’ve been over-emotional about leaving the old job or that I left on bad terms, which is not the case at all (it was a temporary position and my manager pushed hard to make the position a permanent one).

      I don’t know how your relationship is with the upper management, but if you have a good rapport maybe you could talk to them about it? Maybe you and your coworkers could request a meeting to talk about the way your company deals with customers and the image you want to put forth. Not in an accusatory way, just a genuine discussion to establish your goal of looking professional and cohesive (because your boss is sending out mixed messages and undermining you, but you don’t need to say it like that).

      In front of the customer, I don’t think there’s really much more that you can do than laugh it off, or treat it as the hyperbolic statement that it is.

  167. Sneezy*

    Anyone out there have tips for surviving an office renovation? How did you survive without a functioning kitchen, constant noise, dust, zero meeting spaces, and a total mess?

      1. Sneezy*

        There will be a couple days when I *have* to, but for the most part my job can’t really be done from home. :(

    3. Bagpuss*

      remind yourself that this, too, will pass.
      And if possible, find a local park, or coffee shop, where you can go on your lunch break to get out .

    4. ..Kat..*

      In the USA, they are required by OSHA to keep noise, dust, etc below certain levels. Are you sure your job is doing that?

  168. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

    I spent the better part of my afternoon watching IT try to troubleshoot a needed application, which resulted in them just deploying me a new PC. Which I now have to reconfigure to my liking. I guess there are worse ways to spend the Friday before my holiday weekend, but even so I’m kind of done with today.

  169. AnotherLibrarian*

    How can I politely push back when people say “as soon as possible.” I tend to get several requests phrased this way a week and I am trying to figure out some polite email language that would help me get an actual deadline from people.

    1. CatCat*

      “Could you provide a more specific time frame for when you need this? I want to be sure to get it to you by the time you need it.”

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        That’s what I am trying to do. I just need help with language that doesn’t sound snotty in an email.

        1. BRR*

          Ah, gotcha. That’s basically the language I use. “I’ll add it to my queue. What date do you need it by? I have a couple of things lined up so that would help me prioritize.”

    3. Trinity Beeper*

      I would say that when somebody asks you to do something as soon as possible, let them know you have other priorities. You’d like to have a hard deadline to know where that task should be placed among those priorities so that it’s delivered in a timely manner.

    4. Lady Kelvin*

      You could give them a time frame by which you will get back to them. Something like “Ok, I will be able to get this back to you by Friday next week, would that be soon enough?” Then they’ll either say yes or give you a new deadline.

      1. LCL*

        This has been the most effective way for me. It turns out some people really need something by the end of the day but are too polite to say so, other people expect you to drop everything and work on their request only.

      2. Alianora*

        I like this approach a lot better than asking for a deadline. This way, you can proceed as planned unless they push back, which minimizes the time spent waiting for them to get back to you.

  170. ArtK*

    Memo to job candidates: Putting your resume into PDF is fantastic. Putting it in as images, and hence not searchable, loses you big points in my book.

    #2: Taking time to do consulting work so you can help a family member with a serious illness is wonderful. It doesn’t belong in your resume, though. Put it in a cover letter if you feel the need (see below), or be prepared if I ask about it. It doesn’t look like a serious gap, so I probably wouldn’t even notice, other than the transition from full employment to consulting and wanting to go back.

    #3: Recruiter: Can I have a cover letter, please?!?!?!

  171. AnonAnon*

    I’m sure this is too late to get any traction, but at least I can vent:

    There’s a colleague that I’m at BEC stage with. She’s legitimately bad at her job, which makes my job harder, but my (internal) frustration with her various crappy behaviors is over the top. I’ve just had it with her.

    She recently complained to her manager about the fact that I’d raised the pattern of her poor work to him (her manager). She objected that I’d spoken with her manager rather than telling her directly. In fact I had spoken with her directly, every time she didn’t do something/made a careless mistake/failed to show up for my program. (She provides support to the program I manage.) After not seeing any improvement from her, I raised the pattern of problems with her manager.

    The solution they devised was that she and I should have a standing meeting to make sure we are “on the same page” about the work we do together. In practice this meeting is just me bringing a list of the things she should be working on and reminding her to do them.

    She is out sick today, and another colleague sent out a document that my BEC colleague would normally send. It was missing something that I’d sent to her to be included, so I sent the content that should have been included to her boss (because BEC coworker is out sick, her the only one who can edit the document). He immediately fixed the document, but a couple of hours later emailed me to remind me that I should be taking these kinds of problems directly to her.

    ARGH. She’s not even here today, so I couldn’t take it to her. But more than that — I just disagree that I should go to her over and over and over again and never flag for her boss that she’s screwing up constantly.

    What do you think?

    1. CatCat*

      It sounds like her manager is refusing to manage. Have you talked to *your* manager about the situation?

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        This.

        Are you on the same level as your colleague or as her manager? I think that will probably make a difference.

    2. Gumby*

      “How many times should I bring an issue directly to her before escalating again?”

      Then when you escalate, “As agreed, I brought this directly to BEC 3 times in the last month (see attachments 1 – 3) but it still has not improved. I am now escalating.”

      If another situation rises where she is unavailable then I would say so in the email. Then at least the person knows you considered that option but it wasn’t viable. Yes, her manager should know she’s out but if one introductory sentence “I’d take this to BEC but she’s out today and [other colleague] doesn’t have access” will prevent annoying responses, then might as well head them off.

  172. Alexandra*

    Cliffnotes version: Worked for family member for years, had family falling out, he now denies I worked there to screw me on my job search, don’t know how to go forward in job search.

    Story:

    My brother started his business 4 years ago. I am currently a masters student and have been working for him doing all his administration work since he opened the business – was encouraged to do it by my parents and we are from a culture where even as an adult, you don’t say “no” to parents as lightly as many Western cultures. My brother and I had a good relationship but it became strained when he met his now wife a year ago (they went from meeting to married within 5 months). She is a bully – nasty from the moment I met her. Even my mother took a disliking to her and my mother is one of those people who likes everyone. She can find a good word to say about almost anyone, but doesn’t have a nice word to say about my brother’s wife. Yet in my brother’s eyes she does no wrong. A few weeks ago, when she made more negative comments about my weight (I gained some weight from a thyroid condition and am trying to lose it but am very self conscious of it still) and my single relationship status, I stood up for myself and asked her to stop the cruelty and they now refuse to speak to me. I am not working for him anymore as of that and am job hunting.

    But my brother and his wife told a company I interviewed for that called for a reference that I was “lying” when I said I worked there so they could screw me over even though I worked there for 4 years. After an employer asked me about that, I don’t know what to do? I emailed him and asked him not to do that and he wrote back with a profanity ridden email about how I can “eat shit” and he “hopes my life sucks” because “you don’t accept my wife into the family you evil fucking bitch”.

    What on earth can I do now? That is my work experience.

    I have learned a lesson about not working with family, but I can’t turn back the clock now. How can I best deal with this going forward in a way that doesn’t make me look like a drama queen who brings up family “dirty laundry” to an employer, but also doesn’t make me look like a liar?

    1. Trinity Beeper*

      Does he have any other employees that you could use as a reference? Barring that, did you have any clients that you worked with that could be used as a reference?

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I normally would not advise this, but is there any way for your parents to step in on your behalf and tell your brother to knock it off? They pushed you to work with him, and family seems to be very important to them, so maybe framing it as a way towards peace in the family might do the trick? The alternative is to use your studies as an excuse for a sparse work history and leave this mess out entirely. I’m sorry. This situation is terrible. :(

      1. MissDisplaced*

        This may be the one instance where parents could provide a reference. MAYBE (a big maybe)
        But combined with pay stubs, they may at least provide verification she worked with the brother from x time until x time and they had encouraged her to do so for the family.

        Trying to decide if that is worse or sounds even more suspicious to potential employers?
        I would ONLY suggest that if there aren’t any other professional references from clients, coworkers, vendors.

        And yes, parents ought to step in here and tell son to knock it off and not LIE when a potential employer calls. It’s really shitty and they’re part of the problem here.

    3. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      As far as the proving you worked there part, do you have pay stubs? A report showing what you made for the year for taxes? In the US, this would be your w2 or 1099 form. You might not be able to do anything about this employer, but in the future you can warn a potential employer that your old employer been refusing to acknowledge you worked there but that you have proof. I’d also try to use references suggested by Trinity Beeper above if at all possible.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Wait a minute… Even if they aren’t giving you a reference, you still ought to have tangible proof you worked there for 4 years. Pay stubs, tax forms, etc. If you have that, explain in advance to the company this was a family business and the relationship is no longer amiable, which is why you’re looking for independent work, and you’d prefer they didn’t call. Don’t elaborate, just state matter of fact.

      Other references: How about clients or vendors? Are they any you’ve worked with on a regular basis that would be willing to give you a reference about this job? Other professionals? The bank? Law firm? There must be SOME other professional people you worked with in 4 years time who could at the very least vouch for you working there and what your dealings with them were. It’s not as ideal, but better than nothing.

      Unfortunately, this happens more than you think. Plus, companies also go out of business, old bosses die, etc., so sometimes companies can’t get a hold of everyone in your work history. Saying “family business” Well… most potential employers can understand how fraught that can be. Look at all the letters here on AAM about that.

      And of course, cultivate any references you have from school. Professors, volunteer group leaders and personal references can be helpful here. Ask first of course. I think if you can provide a few other references, you will be ok.
      But man, your brother and his wife suck. If you no longer get along, fine. But don’t LIE.

    5. It happens*

      I’m very sorry for your family situation. Once you get to the reference checking phase you can explain that you worked for your brother and have since had a falling out. As long as he was doing business by the book, you should be able to show W2s or 1099s to prove that you were an employee. Also, any kind of non-confidential work product that you could show might be helpful.

    6. Anna Held*

      I’m not a lawyer, but isn’t this tortious interference? They’re lying is hurting your ability to find employment. In other words, you could sue. A lawyer’s letter telling them to knock it off might work.

      Of course, they’re family so it’s sticky, but they’ve already burned that bridge. Something to consider, even if it’s only as a warning.

  173. Internally for granted?*

    Hive Mind

    TLDR: Interviewing for internal promotion – interview process is somewhat hap hazard (and quite long) which sends me warning bells of what my schedule may be like in the position with last minute changes. Have any of you interviewed for as an internal candidate, felt the interview process was lacking (i.e. they would not do this to an external candidate) and then found it did reflect on how they were organized in the job? Should these be warning bells? I was so close to withdrawing my application because, yes things happen, but really continually?

    Boss is being promoted and their spot is open for internals and external interviews. I an internal candidate and felt the way they went about it was well, somewhat unprofessional – like the internal candidates are “done deals.” I don’t think they would do this with an external candidate they fly in. I interviewed with > 10 people (both above and below the position) over about 2 partial days about a few weeks apart early this summer.

    A few things:
    1. Company asked for my dates available which I sent. No response x 1 week. I emailed the next week with several more later days as the dates were approaching. No response over 3 days. They called later afternoon and scheduled first set of interviews the next business day. (OK I am a bit annoyed, gave them several days throughout the month and they picked the earliest date for day #1 with one day notice. I had to reschedule meetings last minute, etc. Yes, I scheduled stuff @ 72 hours before I figured there is no way they would use that day and I had not heard from them.
    2. On Interview day 2 a few weeks later several things:
    A. Less than 2 hours before my interview starts (1 hour driving time), I get a call that they need to extend my interview by an hour at main office due to an interviewer having another meeting. meeting (did not seem urgent to me – more like an oops). I had to find last minute coverage because scheduled to work that time – but what do you do? They know my job type and that my schedule is not “my schedule” but really up to other people. I got lucky though and was able to get it covered.
    B. I arrive at main office that morning – no one there to meet me (For our location, we don’t often work there so it is not unheard of for us to not know where X conference room is in Y building). Front desk people have no idea where the X conference room is, so I walk around to other building. Finally find my way back to building Y and the conference room.
    C. I am about 10 minutes early (I had a hunch this would have some issues so I built in extra time). No one is there.
    D. No folder of info @ position / nothing in the room that let’s me think – “here’s your interview place.” I called HR because, no one was there. Interviewer walks in apologizing and we start late (ok, it happens).
    E. Extended interview time goes past lunch -no offer to grab lunch / let’s go for lunch, etc. My stomach is growling during interview. I go back to work starving and owing folks favors for covering my work for the last minute switch.
    F. I had to ask about salary – doh!

    I am expecting too much? It seems like several little clues that may be flags – if you get boss’s spot your schedule is going to be in chaos! Whenever I interviewed anywhere else as an external candidate be it flying in or even a short drive away, I was more “wooed” if that makes sense, a sense of “we are so glad you are here” feeling. I felt with this process it was meh, we don’t have to make an effort for the internal candidates. I get that folks are understaffed, busy, etc. Did anyone have similar experiences, take the job and then realize those were flags? What happened ? I would love to give feedback, but I know that is not going to happen (though I feel embarrassed for my org if this is what we do to externals). I am calmer now, but that day I almost withdrew my application. I don’t think it was directed at me – I know other internals who were so not impressed.

      1. Internally for Granted*

        Boss just goes with the flow so can’t really judge so well (he doesn’t really notice and is less bothered by the drive – it can be 90 minutes). He was a great boss. There aren’t really folks at the main office I can ask “about the main office.” For the record I am a solid (I like to say great and don’t want to be over confident) employee and have won them lots of projects and contracts. Am waiting to hear internally soon.

        It is the meh / lack of effort to internal candidates that bothers me. Am I off base there? I am job searching as well and had great interviews (and 2 offers outside) and the internal interview was such a contrast to the external stuff – it seemed so not-even -bother. I read a lot that for regular interviews these might be “flags.” Are they flags for internal? Or is it expected to have less effort put in by the company and grandboss?

  174. Wannabe Data Scientist*

    Self-Paced Online (Masters) Degree Program. At one point I read a comment where the commenter had signed up and completed a self-paced degree program – it may have been a Bachelors degree. I believe that you paid per the time you were enrolled, but could complete as many classes as you could manage within that time period without paying additional fees. No per credit pricing. I looked at the program, thought it sounded interesting, and then promptly forgot to note the name of the program and school. Any help with identification would be greatly appreciated!

    I feel like there was a masters degree for data analytics or something similar. I feel like it listed a Udemy nano-degree as a way to meet the admissions requirements.

    Note to self: Take Notes! Bookmark Interesting Things!

    1. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      WGU works like this and they are accredited! I do not know if they have a masters for data analytics, but I went online for my BS in accounting and it was great.

  175. Trinity Beeper*

    The powers that be decided to build pony walls in our open office and I am so happy !! We do have conference rooms for phone calls, etc, but the main area where we work is open. The walls not very tall so we don’t feel boxed in, but the visual noise of being able to see everyone is gone. Plus, it’s cut down on verbal questions that really should be asked over Slack (huge pet peeve of mine). If you are struggling with an open floorplan, I highly suggest seeing if pony walls are an option!

  176. All sorts of anon for this!*

    I know I’m pretty late, but I’m hoping someone is still reading this far down! I have pretty major anxiety and I’m having a day. I’m hoping someone can talk me down! I was driving the work car this morning and hit another car backing out. No injuries, both cars are perfectly drivable. We’re meeting after work to get an accident report from the police. The poor girl was 16 and I think it was pretty shared responsibility. I called my boss when it happened (she’s also our general counsel) and she has said several times today it’s not a big deal. Don’t worry about it and to just get the report after work and we’ll send it to the insurance company. But I can’t stop freaking out about it, even though I know logically, it’s all fine. I’m completely tired (I get super sleepy when my anxiety kicks in!) and I don’t want to eat anything (trust me, that’s not normal for me!). Help me believe my boss and my coworkers who have all said this is no big deal and it’s all fine!!! It’s not helping that we’re meeting the police after work for the report and I feel like I’m in trouble (note: I’ve never even gotten a ticket before – I don’t think that’s helping in this instance!).

    1. Trinity Beeper*

      It would behoove your boss to be honest with you if this were a big deal. Your boss sounds like someone who would go to bat for you, as a good boss should. So, in the pretty unlikely case that this is a bigger deal than your boss had thought, your boss is likely to step in and help you out, however is appropriate.

    2. I edit everything*

      First thing: get something to drink, preferably water. That will probably help. Then get a little sugar and protein into your system, even if you don’t feel like eating. Some little nibbles or a bit of hard candy you can suck on. It sounds like you’ve had a ton of adrenalin rushing your system, and counteracting that is important. Do you have a routine you use when you’re having an anxiety attack? If so, have you tried it?

      Everything is going to be ok. Say it out loud. Speaking and hearing the words often helps more than just thinking them. Everything is going to be ok.

    3. Lady Kelvin*

      This is what my parents have said to me since I started driving (because I too, become super anxious about car accidents/anything bad happens that I don’t have control over):
      “Accidents happen, its why we have insurance.”
      Repeat to yourself. Notice that your boss is saying the same thing. Try to breath and trust that this too shall pass.

      On a slightly related side note, we had rented a car to drive to my parents house (~5 hrs) because our car couldn’t/shouldn’t do long trips. As I was pulling into our parking lot I hit our car and put a lovely scratch in the side of it. Worried about it the whole trip. On the way home we get rear-ended in traffic on a highway, we are not at fault and the other guy has to deal with the car rental/insurance crap. They never even asked about the scratch on the wrong side of the car. Talk about good karma.

    4. Not All Who Wander*

      It’s really really not a big deal. Even as a federal employee, getting into an accident in an official car (assuming you didn’t do something egregiously stupid like drive drunk or 80mph in a 45mph zone) really isn’t a big deal. You fill out irritating paperwork. Then a month or so later they realize they forgot a form and you fill out more irritating paperwork. Maybe the annoying guy in the office that everyone in the office is at BEC point with anyway makes a few bad jokes about your driving (especially if you’re a woman) and everyone else rolls their eyes at him. That’s about it. Been there myself. Had quite a few coworkers over the years do it too. Heck, had a coworker end up in a completely totaled rig when she was the middle vehicle in a multi-vehicle pile-up in a dust storm…no repercussions to her at all, everyone was just glad she wasn’t seriously hurt! Sure, there was a lot of paperwork but that’s life.

      Really, it’s okay :)

      Relax. Enjoy the long weekend. Eat ice cream. Or sushi. Relax some more.

    5. All sorts of anon for this!*

      Thanks, everyone!! It was okay (and Not All Who Wander – you were closer than you know; I am a government employee, although not federal!). I’m doing better now and am about to get something for dinner. The officer said no citations and he just took the information and now there’s an ungodly amount of paperwork, as others have said. I also have to recreate the collision in pictorial form. That is…going to be more impressionist than realism, but I can’t be the first on that. I hadn’t responded earlier, but I was reading everyone’s responses and I really appreciated the support! Have a great weekend all!!

  177. Dee Dee*

    Wow, 1000 comments down the page! This probably won’t get noticed.

    I turned down a job offer last night. It was tough. A former manager of mine has been recruiting me pretty heavily. He talked to me about a job a few months back, but the company wasn’t comfortable with the salary I asked for. We touched base again a couple weeks ago and he said a couple of things were in the works but that nothing was going on at the moment. Then a couple days later I got an invitation for an interview. Then there was another interview, then the offer.

    The comapny looks great, and I know and like some of the people there. But it was a lateral move with the possibility of moving up the ladder, for less total compensation. And I didn’t want to take a job where I knew I’d only be in it for the job that comes after. Old manager is still pushing, though, asking more about comp and if I’d be interested if there was a guaranteed promotion down the road. Meanwhile, another guy I know is encouraging me to apply for this (more senior) job at a place he’s currently interviewing with.

    It’s tough, though: my current place is often a mess and I’m often frustrated. But I just gave a very high-stakes presentation to an EVP that was very well received, and there are (credible) rumours of a minor re-org within the next couple of months that may benefit me significantly. My boss’s boss says he’s “nurturing” me, but for what I don’t know. I don’t know if the re-org will fix things or not; the last re-org, a couple of years back, didn’t seem to do anything except make people paranoid and increase the number of turf wars as a result. I also don’t know that if I were to get a raise and/or a promotion that would make me feel better about life day in and day out, but being able to afford a real vacation for once would be nice.

    Anybody else gone through this kind of turmoil? How do you deal with it, and feel confident in your choices?

    1. Anonymeece*

      I don’t know if it’s really similar or not, but I was in a position like this: I hated my job. I loved my coworkers and the work, but my boss and administration made things very difficult, and my workload was insane. I applied for a job that would pay much better, but wasn’t sure about the culture/commute/coworkers/etc. Then boss says that there’s a re-org that would bump me up to a MUCH higher title and pay.

      So what to do? On the one hand, I felt like I’d be kicking myself if the re-org came through and I had already accepted another job, but on the other, the devil you know…

      My advice is to take the sure thing, unless you have serious reservations. It helped me to talk it out with some people, really pinpoint my fears (“What if I suck at the new job when I take it? I know I’m good at what I’m doing now!”), and also consider: “Could I stick in New Job for one or two years if it meant I could pay off some debts?”.

      The re-org, in this case, came through… but only bumped my title and pay up a tiny bit. So consider that there are no promises yet, and no guarantees, and if you stay, won’t you be kicking yourself for not taking the other job?

      There are no guarantees, and I can’t promise you that you won’t regret the choice, but thinking about it in terms of (a) what am I absolutely sure of – versus what may or may not happen in the future, and (b) could I stick it out for a few years, really helped me.

      Best of luck!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      You did the right thing. Thank him for the genuinely for the offer and for thinking of you, but wish them the best of luck in their search and move on.

      1. Only take “less compensation” if you’re willing and financially able to do so for a tradeoff in reduced hours, commute, or time off. (transition to something: parenting, career change, retirement, self-employment, etc.)
      2. Future promotion promises are NEVER a sure thing. Don’t buy into it as part of a job offer.
      3. Your career is a business. Accepting or rejecting an offer is not personal. It’s just business, YOUR business. Take care of your needs first, not a friend or a company.
      4. Realize timing is everything. Situations change, so remain friendly and professional. The timing just isn’t right for you to take that job now. Who knows about the future.

      If the company isn’t comfortable with the salary you ask for, it’s unlikely they ever will be, even if they do agree to up the offer to get you in, they may resent it later and/or expect more than you’re willing to give, or lay you off if the going gets tough. It’s kind of like dating and marriage. Sometimes, even though you like each other, you’re just both at different places in life.

  178. Anon in WI for this one*

    Tornado survivors.

    Any advice?

    We had 11 come through the area on Tuesday. We we lucky enough to not have damage to our house, but we have dozens of downed trees and widow makers (treetops sheared off, but still dangling to the trunk), a few within 10-20 feet of the house. We’ve been chainsaw in nonstop, and are on the wait list for professionals to get the dangling stuff…..but we are so exhausted. We’ve been eating fast food and canned food because we have no energy. Drinking plenty of water and gatoraid. Electric came back on Thurs morning. I should be grateful that we’really ok, dogs are OK and house is ok, but I’m just ready to cry.

    Any words of wisdom? Suggestions?

    1. Woodswoman*

      Oh no, that sounds so awful. I suggest you post this on the weekend thread on Saturday-Sunday rather than this one which is focused on work topics. I imagine you’ll get a lot more replies. Good luck to you!

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Go to sleep. Seriously, a full night’s sleep, uninterrupted, will help. When you wake up, make some sort of large pot of stew/soup/whatever that is hearty, will last for a few days, fills you up good, gives you lots of energy. You can’t work with that kind of equipment if you’re so exhausted – you’ll do something stupid and get hurt.

    3. Anon in WI for this one*

      Damn it. I’m so out of it, I didn’t realize it was Friday. Sorry Alison, feel free to delete.

    4. Snickerdoodle*

      In addition to the good night’s sleep suggestion (heartily seconded!), I also recommend getting some fresh fruits and vegetables (anything other than the canned/fast food stuff you’ve been stuck with) if you possibly can. It will give you more energy and more of a sense of normalcy. I also strongly recommend couch time with pets and a favorite beverage. You can’t have the energy to do what you need to do any other way. It takes a long time to recover from hurricanes/tornadoes; don’t try to do it all at once.

  179. LVP*

    Anyone have suggestions when bringing on a new team members who would have a significant commute?

    I am currently hiring for an entry-ish level assistant role (looking for 3-5 yrs experience).
    One of my top candidates seems great but would have a 45-60 minute commute on a good day, with about 30 minutes of that in quite heavy traffic.

    Our organization is located a bit outside a mediums sized town. She lives (and has always worked) in a rural area a about an hour away.

    If she regularly did this commute I would have no concerns, it isn’t horribly long, but from her resume it is clear that she grew up in this small community and has continued to work there. Driving in her sleeping rural home town is quite different from the heavy traffic we deal with on a daily basis.

    Are there ways I can ask her about this without getting a canned answer that she is sure it will be fine?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m used to all sorts of traffic, and have a regular 1 hour commute each way even though where I work isn’t all that far away! The city just has horrible suburban traffic and lots of road construction lately. Are there any work from home/telecommuting options for this job? Be very up front about this.
      If the applicant drove in to interview from her sleepy rural town, I’m assuming she knows the traffic patterns.

      If applicants need to be in the office, even in bad weather, let them know that UP FRONT there will be no work at home options in the future. But ultimately, it’s up for them to decide if they can do or not do the commute.

    2. Nita*

      I don’t really think you, or her, can really know how that will go until she actually starts commuting. Incidentally, how is the parking near your office? That may be worth discussing with her. Having lived and worked in rural areas and in a big city, I feel like the commute would just be a learning curve. The parking, though… For someone used to quick and easy parking, it can be an unpleasant surprise that they have to build in an extra half hour to circle the block (or pay a small fortune for a garage).

    3. BRR*

      I’m a long commuter. Specifically bring up your concern and see what she says. It kind of sucks to treat it as an inherent issue but in a job interview it’s not likely she’ll say “oh yeah, I might not be cut out for that much driving.” Also specify is your concern how much that can wear someone out or getting to work in time?

    4. I edit everything*

      Schedule an interview for a time when she will have to drive through heavy traffic to get to you. Then she’ll know about it, and you can use that as a chit-chatty opener. Also, would it work for you if she asked to shift her schedule to avoid the worst of the traffic—8-4 instead of 9-5, for instance? If so, let her know that’s a possibilityy. It’s also possible she’s done more driving in traffic than you think. Road trips, vacations, race-car driving school… Around here (a sleepy rural community) most everyone has driven to Myrtle Beach, which has some of the worst traffic ever, through various cities at rush hour, etc.

    5. Tmarie*

      I went from a 15 minute across town commute to a 60 minute country highway commuter a few years ago. If my current employer had made my commute a factor that was just “too much” for me without my knowledge, I would have missed out on a great job that I love a lot. I know that it did take me several weeks to get used to the “extra” time work took out of my day but it was a relatively easy adjustment.

      I think if you are aware that she is going to be tired for a bit until she becomes accustomed to the commute, then you should not let the commute be a factor.

    6. Incognito for this*

      She might be looking to move into town. She may need a change of pace/scenery and needs this job to make it happen.

      It sounds more like your concern is if you hire her, will she be tardy all the time. If the shift she needs to work is non-negotiable, make sure you make that clear, and let her decide on her own if the commute is worth it.

    7. No*

      I have a long commute and I found it quite annoying to be asked if it would be ok in my job interview. It’s my choice and my issue and as it turns out I’m the first one in every day so I wish other people wouldn’t get hung up on it.

    8. LVP*

      Thanks to everyone for your input.

      I agree that I don’t want to make this decision for her or to choose to hire or not based on commute length.
      The job is basically a site management role, with about 75% administrative duties and 25% onsite project supervision. The hours of work flex week to week based on the project schedule but most often travel will happen during high traffic times and timely arrivals can be critical when working with outside vendors who can’t begin their work if someone from our team isn’t onsite.
      I always make a point to clarify our work from home policies (which are limited because of the type of work we do, but I try to offer it when I can) and our attendance requirements.

      She doesn’t have the experience of some of my other applicants, but she is particularly personable and comes across as smart and curious which I really value. I’m still on the fence about moving her forward to the second round of interviews and I think I might ask her to chat on the phone about how she is feeling about the commute. I think if I got a thoughtful answer from her that would be enough, I just want to know she is taking that change in her life and lifestyle seriously.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I’d make sure to stress what you said here about the percentage of on site work and the importance of timely arrivals.

  180. Elisabeth*

    Probably way too late to the party this week, but I started my new job on August 20th and y’all … it’s been so good.

    They appreciate my talents so far, I’ve already made some positive changes, the location is great, and when I leave work I am not constantly plagued by a feeling that Ishould be doing more work from home until I collapse.

    Woo!

    1. I edit everything*

      I don’t have a relevant comment. I just wanted to say how nice it is to see another Elisabeth with an “s” like me.

  181. MsChanandlerBong*

    I’ve posted a few times about my difficulties working with my boss. He’s a nice enough guy, but we are complete opposites when it comes to work style. I always kept my mouth shut and did what he said since he was my boss, but sometimes it killed me to do it–especially when it made the company look unprofessional. I think there is a lot to be said for giving people second chances, but he would literally give people sixth, seventh, and eighth chances before he would finally fire them, and it hurt the business in the form of refund requests, client complaints, etc. I thought I’d just have to keep sucking it up, but then miracle of miracles, I got an email saying he’s no longer involved with my business unit. Oh happy day!

    Now I work with someone else, and we are so much more compatible. We’re both really practical, want to buckle down and do the work without a lot of talking about it, etc. I haven’t enjoyed my job this much for a long time–I’m like a kid in a candy shop!

  182. Jemima Bond*

    I was interviewed for a promotion on 12th June. It was a large campaign for experienced ninja assassins and was both internal and external (internal for me). I still don’t know whether I’ve been successful and the gossip (because HR aren’t saying anything or responding to emails) is that we may hear in mid September. This may be because they have taken so long arranging interviews for external candidates and they won’t tell anyone until they tell everyone. This is an external recruitment agency – whatever they’re getting paid, it’s way too much.
    No question just a frustrated rant from someone fed up of HR. This is the latest in a long line of ways they’ve let me down over the years.

    1. AnonRightNow*

      I’ve got a need for a ninja assassin right now, so if you’re looking for side work let me know :)

  183. GraduatedFromCollegeAFewYearsAgo*

    Should I bother to apply to government jobs when I know I don’t have enough experience?

    I’m been looking primarily at county & state government jobs (mostly admin/office stuff), but what keeps me from applying is my general lack of experience & knowing that they probably have a ton of job applicants that have what they’re looking for. Yet everyone keeps telling to apply to government jobs… but how can I do that when I don’t have the 3 years of admin experience they’re looking for & I’ve never written reports before. The job I have now doesn’t have a whole lot of transferable skills.

    On one hand I feel like I should apply but on the other hand I feel like I’m wasting my time if I don’t have a lot of qualifications or experience.

    2. Left Turn at Albuquerque*

      The type of jobs are a factor (for example, are we talking someone who answers a phone all day, or something more data entry-like), but my general experience is that state jobs are very difficult to get whereas competition for county jobs depends a lot on the county. A rural county may not have much of a candidate pool to draw from compared to a suburban county near a big city. Still, it can’t hurt to try. I work for a municipal government – small suburban city – and we recently offered a job to a candidate who didn’t have one specific type of experience we were looking for, but who had other, somewhat-related experience that we think will be really beneficial to our organization. You never know if you might have something to offer that the hiring organization didn’t realize they needed or wanted.

      As far as having never written reports before, I’d never written council meeting minutes until I was asked to, so I went through several months’ worth of previous minutes to get a feel for how they were structured and took it from there. The good thing about government documents is that there’s almost always a lot of well-established precedent to help guide your way.

  184. Snickerdoodle*

    I have a creepy coworker situation I could use some scripts for.

    I take vanpool to and from work each day, and one of the other passengers works in my building on a different floor. We work for the same company but in unrelated departments. He’s married, about ten or fifteen years older than I am, and I’m female and look about ten years younger than I am. I mention our respective ages because it’s part of a pattern I’ve seen repeated many times.

    He is overly friendly and boundary-pushing, and his attitude seems predatory without crossing a line to the extent I can call him out on anything or take it to HR. For instance, he has sent me several innocuous emails which were transparent excuses to talk to me (I didn’t respond to any of them), and twice he has visited my cube unannounced and uninvited, again with paper thin excuses. I never told him where I sit, so he must have looked it up in Outlook, which I found creepy. Either the look on my face, my quick ushering him away, or my lack of response to any of his emails seem to have deterred him, because the emails and cube visits stopped. However, his behavior persists in other ways, such as hinting he’d like to hang out outside of work and complaining bitterly about his wife. (I’ve heard many men complain to me about their wives in an attempt to groom me into an affair with them.) I’ve documented all his emails and cube visits in a spreadsheet backed up on a flash drive in case he starts up again or escalates.

    He’s also fairly misogynistic and racist. He keeps his remarks relatively rare and vague enough for plausible deniability. I’ve taken to wearing earbuds when he’s on vanpool so I can avoid conversation with him and also not hear anything offensive he says. However, the other day, I forgot my earbuds, and he started talking about the Mollie Tibbetts case. He’d previously made several thinly veiled remarks implying that it happened because the murderer was an illegal immigrant. He said “The press sure dropped that story in a hurry. The last I heard was something about how women should be able to jog without being harassed, which I thought was an . . . ‘interesting’ take on it.” I snapped “What other take is there?! EVERYONE has the right to jog without being harassed!” That shut him up. He continued talking about firearms and complaining about his wife, which was not a comforting segue, but at least he dropped that particular topic. I made sure not to forget my earbuds again.

    Anyway, I would like to know if there are any suggestions for getting him to be quiet other than ignoring him or responding only vaguely and professionally. (I’ve made a point to give him extremely brief, vague responses so as not to give him anything to work with as he is also very nosy, gossips about other coworkers, draws conclusions, etc.) He’s not going to change and I’m not going to stop taking vanpool, and he already knows my work contact information anyway, so I need to find a way to work around him.

    1. Nita*

      I have family members like that, so my patience tank for this sort of behavior hit empty many years ago. I’d just be really, really blunt. Polite, but blunt. “I’m sorry, but I do not enjoy hearing you complain about your wife behind her back. I also don’t think we have any interests in common, and will be very grateful if you find someone else to vent to. Thank you.”

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        I’ve thought about that, but I’m trying to stick with stuff he can’t respond to in any way at all. I thought perhaps the “Well, what are you going to do about it?” response or playing dumb and being very literal, but that all involves engaging on some level. I’m relieved at least to note that the other people on vanpool also don’t seem to like him much; they don’t respond to his random annoying remarks much or at all, but I seem to be the only one he’s been creepy to, probably because I’m the only young-ish woman.

        It’s been my experience that outright telling someone they’re being creepy leads to endless denial, attempts to engage you further, etc., and I don’t want to deal with any of that. I’ve had the best luck with freezing them out because I refuse to do any more emotional labor than I can help.

    2. Rey*

      Your gut instinct is telling you that something is off and you have to listen to that feeling to protect yourself. Do not forget your earbuds again. Pack a second pair if you have to because it sounds like that is your biggest line of defense here. You said that you work in unrelated departments, so I don’t think you owe him anything, even the slightest chit-chat.Do not respond to him in any way. If he knows that he can get you to engage after 10 minutes or because he says something offensive, than he will continue to do those things to pull you into a conversation and get more information that you don’t want him to have. Yes, he might think you are rude (and he might even say this to try and draw you into a conversation), but it doesn’t matter what he thinks about you.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        Oh yes, I’ve read The Gift of Fear and dealt with stalkers and creeps before. I’m sticking with my plan for earbuds whenever he rides, and though he hasn’t interrupted me yet, I’m sure he will at some point. My plan is to make a minimalistic response and say I want to keep listening to my music and put them back in. I really wish he wouldn’t say anything offensive at all in the first place, but I suspect most of what he says is implied only and never explicit precisely because he’s been told off before and learned to get more passive aggressive about it. I don’t want to hear the offensive remarks, but stopping them means engaging, which is frustrating. Hence earbuds. It’s entirely possible he’s hoping to get me mad enough to snap at him so he can make another unsolicited cube visit to “apologize.” That happened once before when I didn’t even say anything much; the conversation at the time was something about an ex of mine being a creep. I told the vanpool guy that yeah, the guy was being a creep, and yeah, I documented the hell out of everything and by the way live with my overprotective dad. That probably had as much to do with him backing off as me just not engaging.

        Some people just need a mute button.

        1. Aphrodite*

          Frankly, I would take my earbuds out, look at him with annoyance and every single time, and say “Leave me alone.” Don’t add anything else, and don’t change the phrasing. Just a constant “Leave me alone” statement and then turn your back or at least your head on him. It might feel rude but it’s not when you are doing it to protect yourself.

    4. LilySparrow*

      Anything about his wife: “That is really none of my business. You should talk to your wife about your marriage problems.”

      Anything about guns, the news, or his opinions: “That’s not something I’m interested in. I prefer peace and quiet when I’m commuting.”

      If he comes to your cube: “I’m busy working. Please stop interrupting me.”

      He will not like it. He probably will gossip about your “attitude” to other co-workers. But you see, he wants your attention and to keep you engaged with him. You want him to go away and stop talking to you. You can’t both have what you want, because those two things are exact opposites.

      So in order to get what you want, you have to be willing to actually shut it down, which means he is frustrated/disappointed. There’s no way to get what you want without risking his displeasure. But you can certainly do it in a professional and dignified way.

    5. BuildMeUp*

      He sounds very unpleasant!

      This isn’t the “do not engage” strategy you mentioned preferring, but at some point I read about a woman dealing with a man trying to complain about his wife to her, and her strategy was to, whenever possible, sympathize with the wife. So if he starts in on how the wife works long hours and is never home (with the subtext being that he is oh so lonely), she would say something about how gosh, that must be so tough for Wife!! She must be pretty stressed. Rinse and repeat until creeper realizes he’s not going to get any sympathy from this corner.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        His complaints about his wife aren’t that frequent, and the others on vanpool have also noticed and complained behind his back, so I feel that I have some support there, at least. If for some reason I get sucked into a conversation with him, I will try some of the strategies listed here–perhaps the others will join in.

        Thanks, everybody!

  185. Bunny Girl*

    User LCL requested that I post about my haunted house job on a Friday thread, so I figured I’d share a few of my favorite moments.
    I’ve worked in various haunted attractions for close to ten years on and off. I started as a freshman in high school and I’m almost 30 and every few years I can still manage to talk myself into signing up for a few weekends. I’ve played many rolls over the years but my longest running one was modeled after The Exorcist’s Regan. Most haunts actually did awards and I won many awards for my portrayal of the role. One of my very useless talents.

    There are a couple moments that really stand out to me. Most recently, I followed a couple down a hallway and started a chainsaw (FAKE!!) behind them. The husband literally screamed “take her, take her” and threw his wife at me before sprinting into the next room.
    There was also a time in the possession room (see above) where a grown man completely freaked out, started crying, fell, and crawled out of the room. I think my favorites were the guys who tried to act tough for their group and ended up terrified.

    I’ve had a lot of fun over the years and I would absolutely be working at one this year if I lived somewhere with more options! Let me know if anyone has any questions. :)

    1. Snickerdoodle*

      That’s hysterical. Perhaps not the ruined marriage, but the ruined tough guy reputations, for sure.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Yeah I’m sure he slept on the couch for a good week! It was very funny. I have a theory that haunted houses are dark so you can’t see the employees struggling not to laugh.

        1. Snickerdoodle*

          I don’t think I could work in a haunted house; I have no poker face. I’d cackle inappropriately and/or my eyes would roll right out of my head down the hill. (Both of which could easily fit into haunted house standards, actually.)

    2. Amber Rose*

      Scared wife-throwing dude could be me, if I was a dude. I notoriously once screamed at a loud noise while waiting in line for a haunted house, well before we even got inside. I’m easily terrified. =P

      Did you ever have a hard time not cracking up at the scared people?

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Oh my gosh yes. It was so hard. Sometimes it fit in with your character and it wasn’t a big deal to start cracking up but if it didn’t fit in to what you had going on you had to wait a minute.

    3. Lissa*

      Ok here’s one! I know so many people who tell me that they would completely judo flip someone in a haunted house if startled, or some other “I would react violently and can’t help it” stuff. Has this ever happened? Has someone ever broken out the martial arts moves on Casper?

      1. Sparkly Lady*

        I’m doing a haunt this year, and we have an explicit safety protocol because patrons have indeed gotten violent with the ghosts.

        Fortunately, my role is early–before things have gotten very scary–because I don’t know how I would handle that.

      2. Bunny Girl*

        Unfortunately, a lot of people do react violently. Some people to be a jerk, and some it’s just a reaction. Hint: It’s more people being jerks. I’ve been slapped, kicked, punched, and shoved pretty consistently over the years I was involved. It sucks.

    4. Sparkly Lady*

      Ooo, I’m working my first haunt this year and I’m super excited. I’m mostly going to be doing an acting role, but I’m supposed to also do some spooking. I’m very good at physical movement, so I’m not worried about looking creepy, but I’m less confident in the interactivity/reading people element.

      Do you have any tips? Or advice you wish you’d been given when you started?

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Oh you’ll have so much fun!

        Absolutely. As I said above, unfortunately, people can be jerks and do hit. If you don’t specifically have to be up in people’s face, I’d advise against it. You’ll get really good at spotting trouble makers right off the bat, so you’ll be able to adjust accordingly.

        The number one advice I can give is take super good care of yourself physically and mentally. It’s more demanding than a lot of people realize and a vast majority of actors get sick by the end of the season. Eat well, get good sleep, make sure to spend some time to yourself, do a good stretch before you head out. Gargling salt water is a god send because your voice will give out. Good luck and have fun!

    5. curly sue*

      There’s a very good haunted house near me that was Too Much on so many levels. I was and remain very proud, however, that my instinctive reaction when I bailed the eff out and started running hell-bent for the exit was to grab my husband’s hand as I flew by him at ~ mach 1 and drag him out with me.

      For the record, I HATE clowns.

  187. Gaia*

    Well I’m officially unemployed. And feeling horrible. I’ve never been fired (although this was technically a layoff). I don’t know what I thought today would feel like but this is weird. I held it together until I got to my car. Then I cried all the way home.

    1. LCL*

      I’m sorry, layoffs are horrible. Layoffs that are really firings are even harder to endure, because now you feel slightly beholden to your company for doing you the favor of calling it a layoff, even though they treated you like crap. If it helps, just keep dwelling on the fact that you will never have to report to that place again.

      1. Gaia*

        I wasn’t very clear, sorry. It really was a layoff but it still feels like “fired” to me.

        But I get what you mean. This is just a horrible feeling.

    2. BRR*

      Fired twice here. I’m sorry you had to go through this. Be kind to yourself. Allow yourself to feel sad.

      1. Gaia*

        Thank you. It makes me surprisingly sad. I know I’m lucky that my finances are stable so it isn’t necessarily fear. Just really deep sadness. I didn’t expect that.

    3. Incognito for this*

      I’ve been fired before too (couched as a layoff) and i cried for weeks. It sucks. It ended up being a huge blessing in disguise. I hope it turns out to be a blessing for you as well.

      1. Gaia*

        Oh yea I cried the entire drive home and am on/off sobbing at home. And I *never* cry. I’m pretty proud I held it together today at the office. We had our traditional events and people said such kind things.

    4. Close Bracket*

      It’s ok, really. I’ve been fired and laid off. Lot’s of people have been one or the other or both. It’s not a personal failing. Apply for uninsurance, if that applies, take a week to get yourself together, and then start looking forward. You will get through this.

      1. Gaia*

        I hadn’t been able to put words to it but “personal failing” is exactly how this feels. And I know that’s not reasonable – I’d never think it of anyone else. And I even know it wasn’t a performance issue (in fact, it is because I did way better than expected so now they’re going an entirely new way and no longer need me) but it still sucks.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’ve been through two layoffs and a firing. They both thoroughly suck.

      Take a few days to feel your feelings and indulge in your wallowing and then you’ll be much better equipped for your next steps.

  188. Rhymetime*

    So, I just dodged a bullet on behalf of my stellar direct report who is new to our field and our organization. She managed a complex project with a whole bunch of people who needed to chime in and they often had conflicting input and personality issues between them,which she navigated gracefully. Not only did she juggle all this, but the project itself is stellar. The day before the deadline yesterday, I heard from my manager that our organization director was upset with my report that they didn’t get to review the project.

    I was able to tactfully learn from my report, without her knowing about the annoyance of the director, that she had asked the director well in advance if they needed to see it and was told that wasn’t necessary. I caught my manager on his way out the door with this information yesterday, he called the director with the update, and the director realized they had forgotten all this.

    Instead, today my manager and I have made sure that my direct report is getting lots of recognition for her terrific performance. She’s none the wiser for what almost happened. Phew!

    1. Close Bracket*

      I was in a similar situation, but I didn’t dodge the bullet. Somebody who should have been looped in by his direct reports wasn’t, told my great-grand-boss that I didn’t do something, and it was *months* later when it was really too late to address when I found out. It would have been nice to have known there was a complaint about not being in the loop from that particular person so that I would know to cma with them on future projects by making sure I sent them my own progress reports. What is your take on the director? Are they someone who frequently forgets that they requested something, or makes similar mistakes in communication of expectations? Would it help your new hire to know that she should check back in with that director on whether they want to review things more than once? Are they someone who needs to be handled carefully in general? Or was this a one off from someone who generally remembers everything and doesn’t hold grudges? If misunderstandings are likely to happen in the future, it would be helpful to let your new hire know what happened and suggest how to avoid them in the future.

      1. Rhymetime*

        That sounds rough that you were in that position for so long without anyone filling you in so you could respond accordingly in later projects. Sorry that happened to you.

        In my case, the director has consistently been known a micromanager and can be critical of how people handle individual projects that are handled at a level they shouldn’t be working on. The word about that was out in our sector when I asked around to get info before I decided to accept the offer of the position. I’ve learned it’s been a factor for multiple people leaving. However, the director is retiring soon so this will all be moot soon. I’m hopeful that I won’t have to run interference for my report much longer.

  189. Mimmy*

    I have a question about accepting Facebook friend requests from former clients / students / etc.

    As I’ve mentioned before, I am an instructor in a vocational rehabilitation center for blind & visually impaired adults. My relationship with my students has been generally very positive.

    About 2-3 months ago, I got requests from 2 former students who had recently graduated from our program. I accepted one but declined the other. I then began to wonder if accepting these requests might not be appropriate. I got a third request the other day and have been sitting on it. I wanted to ask my supervisor about it today but she got tied up in an unexpectedly long meeting.

    The one former student whose friend request I did accept has been appropriate – she IMs me on occasion to say hello, but it’s always brief and never overly-personal.

    Thoughts??

    1. Bea*

      My thought is that linkedin is probably the most appropriate.

      However, they’re former students. So this may be their preferred networking device. It depends on how you use Facebook.

      I use mine to stay in touch with people past and present. There’s nothing too personal that I wouldn’t share with a boss or my mother (well my mom is on my Facebook). So it’s casual but just fine.

      If you use it to be political or share controversial opinions, then a tighter lock makes sense.

      My old teachers were my references right out of school. We kept it very professional. Things loosened up over the years.

    2. Hellanon*

      I will accept LinkedIn connections from students who’ve graduated, work acquaintances, etc, but not facebook invitations. My facebook posts are largely about books & cats, but there’s enough opinion in there that I don’t want to worry about crossing those streams….

    3. Mimmy*

      Thank you Bea and Hellanon.

      I’m on FB every day but do not post a whole lot–maybe a few times a week at most. I use it to stay connected with people and to use the Groups and Pages features (but nothing controversial).

      Just to clarify: Where I work isn’t a college / university setting. It’s a state-run vocational rehabilitation program, but we call the consumers “students”.

  190. Someone Else*

    How can you tell the difference between giving a colleague a useful heads up about something before they join a team or project vs potentially souring them to something that bugs you, but might not bug them had you not told them about it (a sort of “can’t unsee it” effect)?

    I have a colleague coming back from extended leave soon who will be joining a major project. One of the stakeholders is someone she’s never worked with before, and the project was in infancy when she left. I was thinking through in my head things I’ll need to tell her to prep her for working on this and realized my brain went immediately to warning her about some of the…inefficiencies…we’ve all been struggling with in stakeholders’ process (and not having the standing to change it). But then I realized, hey…maybe this won’t driver her nuts the way it does me…and everyone else I’ve spoken to on the project…maybe I’d just be turning her to negative thoughts unnecessarily. But on the other hand, maybe it’s unkind to throw her into the deep end of this without a heads up.

    The more I think about it the less sure I am of which it is. Or possibly it could be either and really just depends on exactly how I word it.

    1. MiloSpiral*

      Take three trying to post this–I replied to the wrong thread, twice!

      I think it depends on what the negativity is–if it was sudden verbal abuse from the project manager, yeah, I’d warn her about that (and go to your boss or HR, of course!).

      But if it’s “inefficiencies…” as much as those can really make you miserable, I don’t think there’d be much good in letting her know. I do think you might be priming her to be unhappy, and even if that doesn’t work, she’ll feel how she feels about it and make decisions accordingly. I’m not sure I’d be upset with a coworker for not warning me that things had grown inefficient at work–in fact, if a coworker came to me upset that I hadn’t warn them, I might be a little confused!

      Perhaps your coworker will come back with fresh eyes and propose ways to solve a problem, ways that the rest of the group can’t see right now because they’re too deep in it.

      1. Someone Else*

        The specific thing that brought this to mind (although there are others) is that the guy can be very interrupty. He also has a habit of derailing meetings at the start with too much small talk. (Meetings he’s not in, our hi-hellos- usually last no more than 2 minutes, if that. Meetings he is in he often pushes it to closer to 10…(and by pushes I mean he’s actively extending it, asking clients tons of follow up questions…how’s your weekend…how’s your remodel…just not at all relevant stuff…which sucks in a one-hour meeting with an actual hour’s worth of stuff to get through).
        So the warning I had in mind would’ve been something along the lines of literally “FYI he can be a bit interrupty” and “be careful if you have another meeting adjacent to one with him because you’ll have to enforce your own hard-stop” (the other option being “don’t offer him meeting times that would butt up to the start of another”.)
        But maybe I’ll just say nothing.

  191. Bea*

    I just got offered a side gig doing some transcribing for a friend. I’m so stoked after my earlier whine that I’m bored and out of things to do.

    If I like it, I’ll have her tell her colleagues to reach out if they need things done.

    The power of networking has been paying off this week.

  192. KatieKate*

    Hopefully folks are still here:

    In my phone interview today, the manager mentioned that she is looking for an extroverted, social person. That is not me. However! I have been doing a similar job at a lower level for the past four years to great success. I am comfortable public speaking and I am great with the sales pitch part of the job. I feel like my natural calmness has led me to seem unengaging in previous interviews (though it’s never been brought up to my face, just my own reading of the situation,” and I’m wondering if there’s a way for me to say, “while I do consider myself an introvert, I am really comfortable being extroverted when the setting calls for it and ‘putting on my game face.’ I’ve also found that I have a great rapport with people who can be turned away from an extroverted personality. I’m confident that my past success in sales and recruitment shows that this isn’t a barrier for me.”

    ….Or do I just ignore the introverted elephant in the room and act as bubbly as humanly possible during the interview?

    1. MiloSpiral*

      Oops… I forgot to properly hit “reply” when I wrote this the first time!

      I think it depends on what the negativity is–if it was sudden verbal abuse from the project manager, yeah, I’d warn her about that (and go to your boss or HR, of course!).

      But if it’s “inefficiencies…” as much as those can really make you miserable, I don’t think there’d be much good in letting her know. I do think you might be priming her to be unhappy, and even if that doesn’t work, she’ll feel how she feels about it and make decisions accordingly. I’m not sure I’d be upset with a coworker for not warning me that things had grown inefficient at work–in fact, if a coworker came to me upset that I hadn’t warn them, I might be a little confused!

      Perhaps your coworker will come back with fresh eyes and propose ways to solve a problem, ways that the rest of the group can’t see right now because they’re too deep in it.

    2. AnotherJill*

      I would just be genuine and highlight your successes in the past. This sounds like someone that will pigeonhole you as soon as you say the “I” word, even though introverts can be very successful in forward facing roles.

      At most, you could mention that you are a naturally calm person and highlight how that helps you in your position.

    3. Kerr*

      From a fellow introvert, good luck!

      I’m not sure I’d pull out the “introverted” word with someone like that. Maybe emphasize how “social” you inherently are, versus talking about how you’re able to put on your game face. TBH I’m wary of people who ask for someone “extroverted” vs. calling out specific skills like “sales” or “easily establishes rapport” – I sense they’re looking for something inherent, not learned, and would mentally dock you points based on a stereotype even if you acted exactly like an extroverted person.

    4. No Tribble At All*

      I’d say, don’t call yourself introverted because she specifically said she wants an extrovert, but I like your last line about your success in sales & recruitment. Go with words like “personable” and “engaging”. Do you have any former clients or coworkers you could ask for a quote? Maybe a line from a performance review? That way you can back it up with facts. I think if you do a fake bubbly face, they’ll be likely to pick up on that, so use your sales demeanor. Good luck! :)

    5. Lissa*

      People use introvert and extrovert in wildly different ways. Us who’ve spent a lot of time here and in similar internet spaces use it to mean “where you get your energy from” but many people who aren’t well-versed in internet culture just use extroverted to mean chatty/social and introverted to mean quiet/shy.

      I’d avoid using those terms specifically and instead focus on things like your great rapport with people, your past successes etc.

      Also one thing I’ve learned is that many many people consider themselves introverted who others would never think that.

  193. MiloSpiral*

    I think it depends on what the negativity is–if it was sudden verbal abuse from the project manager, yeah, I’d warn her about that (and go to your boss or HR, of course!).

    But if it’s “inefficiencies…” as much as those can really make you miserable, I don’t think there’d be much good in letting her know. I do think you might be priming her to be unhappy, and even if that doesn’t work, she’ll feel how she feels about it and make decisions accordingly. I’m not sure I’d be upset with a coworker for not warning me that things had grown inefficient at work–in fact, if a coworker came to me upset that I hadn’t warn them, I might be a little confused!

    Perhaps your coworker will come back with fresh eyes and propose ways to solve a problem, ways that the rest of the group can’t see right now because they’re too deep in it.

  194. Mimmy*

    This post is a bit long and rambling – sorry!

    I have been wrestling with a lot of mixed feelings about my current job as well as fear about being able to succeed in more advanced roles despite some (life-long) emotional issues.

    I know every job has its good and bad parts, but I’m finding the bad parts sometimes outweigh the good in my current job. I work with blind & visually impaired adults, and it feels so awesome when they thank me for teaching them a valuable skill or if I’m just having a good laugh with a student. Yet, the joy rarely lasts because then something irks me. Most of what irks me are ongoing / recurrent issues, such as center policies, support from our agency and the referral process. Other instructors and some students share similar frustrations.

    It’s so hard to explain – many of the students do express gratitude for everything they’ve gained from our program, and they are just awesome in general. So I know there is enormous value to what I and the other staff do. Yet, there is so much that I equally get frustrated with that it’s hard to enjoy what I do.

    My relationship with my coworkers and supervisors are generally positive. My supervisor can be a bit scattered but has a big heart. The one instructor I mainly work with is nice and has been somewhat helpful in learning my job; however, she can be very negative. I agree with some of what she says but it often put a damper on things. Plus, I think she’s a bit protective of her “turf”, which I believe is partly why I haven’t really grown.

    What I teach can be very tedious and even boring at times (generally, I get a student started on a lesson, give some pointers, then leave them be). When I took this job, I saw it as a bridge to getting experience in ensuring accessibility for people with disabilities (I was originally told I’d be a float). In fact, I am currently pursuing a certification on the ADA. My hope with this is to eventually become an accessibility specialist (e.g. in a college or other large setting) or get involved in ADA-related projects.

    Here’s my worry: I can be emotionally fragile – I get anxious or upset over small things. I’ve been this way my entire life. So while I know I have the skills and intelligence for more advanced employment, I don’t know how well I’d be able to handle the social dynamics – office politics, bureaucracy, not being able to meet with my manager NOW, etc etc etc. I had similar instincts when I was pursuing social work all through the 2000s. Did I listen to those instincts? No! Now I’m afraid I’m heading down that same path. Yet….I just don’t want to give up this dream of learning all about the ADA and accessibility and contributing to disability inclusion.

    I love to write (as you can probably tell…. :P ) and have thought about doing some of that, but where do I begin??

    Sigh.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      The most frustrating part of a job where you get to actually help people is that it is usually full of bureaucracy and political machinations.

      I don’t know that I have any actionable advice, but I feel for what you’re going through.

      1. Mimmy*

        That sure does seem to be the case! Which tells me that if I really don’t ever want to deal with that, maybe I should move way from directly helping people to more project-based work (doesn’t have to be freelance–it could be projects as part of a permanent position). That probably has its own headaches, but at least I know it wouldn’t be at the expense of consumers of human services.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          It was the best decision I ever made. My frustrations tended to boil over with the people I was trying to help and how they seemed not to want to help themselves. Moving to a behind the scenes position where I know my work is important to a lot of people, but it basically just processing has vastly improved my quality of life.

          1. Mimmy*

            Yeah I’ve had a few students who clearly would rather have a root canal than be in my class. Those are the frustrating ones.

            I also get frustrated when we have students with developmental disabilities because we get very little information about it on the intakes, and my co-instructor and I feel unprepared to work with them since we don’t have the training and certification most of the other instructors have.

            While I do enjoy working with the majority of students, I have a hunch that I too would feel better in a “behind-the-scenes” role.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Human service is a roller coaster just like you describe here. We get to see people’s lives unfold and many of the stories are Not Good At All. So you are doing work that will have extreme ups and downs, with the ups not lasting that long.

      You got to this work because of your compassion and now your compassion is in the way of doing the work. This is not unusual, ask me how I know. ;)
      Life is hard, Mimmy. And sometimes it’s down right impossible. If we can lighten another person’s load for five minutes that might be the best we can get there.
      I remember one person telling me they needed a heart transplant. Then they said, “There is no heart for poor people like me. I won’t get a new heart.” He died a while later. I have no words for this. All I have is that perhaps I lightened his load for five minutes some where along the line. Some people’s deaths are really sad, but their lives were even sadder.

      So. Fear. I can’t count the numbers of times in life for me that fear has boiled down to lack of knowledge. Mimmy, you like a brain surgeon-to-be who is worrying about doing good brain surgery and you are still just learning the fundamentals of the work. In other words you are reaching too far out, worrying about things out in the future. Yes, a few months matter, of course, a few years WILL make a difference. It only makes sense that you don’t know this or that, of course, it’s not in our genes at birth. As you move closer and closer to what you want to do you will be better and better prepared to do it. Time will be kind, Mimmy. This is a temporary discomfort that will lessen gradually as you go along.

      Confront your fears. Be strategic. I worried about my car, as getting to work was critical. So I made a plan for what to do if my car breaks down. I found a repair place, learned everyone’s names and I have been doing business with them for 20 plus years. I cut my car fear down as much as possible. Then I moved on to my next worry. Some fears are easier to process than others. My car fear was easier than other stuff that worried me, once I got that cleared up I had the bandwidth to move to something else. I picked things that felt doable if I applied myself. I learned lots of stuff and found myself taking on harder and harder things. This sounds like life advice but it also applies to work. Be deliberate/strategic and go one fear at a time. tame that fear.

      With some fears, I found I needed to take a trustworthy friend/family member with me. I refied my house after my husband died. For some reason this involved TONS of crying. My aunt helped me by talking to me every day about each step as I went through it. My aunt was a strategic choice of person, she understood finances and she understood my setting. I did not have to explain every detail. Likewise at work, you will find one or more people who you can really count on. You can’t know who these people are, because you are not there yet. But they will come. I promise. Here’s the kicker, in years to come you will play that role for someone else.

      Of everything you mention here, the easiest one is navigating office relationships. Mimmy, you have AAM. You have the best there is to have, right here. Keep reading and reading. If you have to, skip the comments and just read Alison’s advice. Get her books, read them cover to cover. Underline, write in the margins. Train your brain. It’s not in us at birth, Mimmy, it seems like it should be though, right?

      And realize something. Alison earns a living helping people stay employed. In other words, you are not alone here. Millions of people, literally millions, have questions about how to navigate their work settings. I think your key to your concern over navigating office relationships and work situation is for you to commit to be a life-time student of learning about people and learning about work. Be a sponge. Soak up the best of the best advice around you and apply it as you can to your life and your career.

      Little stuff comes up as we go along. One thing that happened for me is I decided to make sure I apologized when I made a mistake. So I did, that was hard because previous experience taught me that apologizing only brought on 27 more problems. I apologized anyway. What happened next was amazing, I was proud of me. And I had a feeling that I never anticipated, I felt I had rose above the situation. I did not let the situation define me- I destroyed its hold over me. I never felt that before. So yes, there are pleasant surprises ahead.

      Take what is right in front of you and do your best with it every day. Some days my best isn’t great, but at least I know I did what I could. Our best is a sliding scale due to [reasons] and that is okay. My pastor pointed out that each day offers something that will be useful in the future. And I find that to be true. No day is wasted.

      1. Mimmy*

        Likewise at work, you will find one or more people who you can really count on. You can’t know who these people are, because you are not there yet. But they will come. I promise. Here’s the kicker, in years to come you will play that role for someone else.

        That’s the thing – there really aren’t that many people at work I can really talk to, or at least who I know is willing and has the time to help me talk things out. My supervisor has been the one person I’ve been able to talk to, but she’s not always available and I get very anxious when she’s not around. Most of the other staff are instructors. Our director is always like “We work as a team!” but it doesn’t always feel that way since we’re so focused on our individual instructional disciplines. The only time a student’s entire team is together is during case conferences, which only occurs twice during a student’s time in our program.

        Oh…here’s the kicker: complaining with each other is frowned upon. Well, maybe if the administration would make the environment more welcoming for feedback, we wouldn’t have to gripe amongst ourselves!

        But I digress… I’m not really sure who I can count on yet, but I’m going to have to identify someone because my supervisor has some time off coming up–including a possible extended medical leave–and I don’t feel comfortable with the other supervisors.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Okay, yeah, this is tricky. Unfortunately my ideas here kind of take time.

          Do you have someone who is perhaps not a peer exactly but on the same level (rank) as you? Perhaps you can start there?

          Is there one or two instructors that seem warmer than the others? Those people can be potential informal mentors.

          Your boss on leave: This one might be easier than it seems. Is a particular person going to be assigned your boss’ responsibilities? If yes, you just need to find out who it is. If no, you can ask your boss who you should go to if you need something or if something suddenly comes up.

          I totally get the idea about missing the boss. I can go a week without seeing my boss and our work really does not accommodate that very well. I need her to sign things, I need her to make decisions and so on. I can feel myself tensing up when the pile gets too big. Sometimes I tell her I have a couple things that are a priority and cannot wait, if that is true.

          Some of my stuff is recurring. And some of my stuff that I need her for is one-off. It’s easier to map out a plan for the recurring stuff. You can ask directly, “Boss, I have X that needs to be signed every week. How best do I handle this?”
          The one-off stuff can be helped with a contact list. Make a list of names, numbers, emails and type of help. So this looks like, “Bob, [contact info], call when AC breaks.” And “Jane [contact info] call when copier does not work”, etc. These are simple examples. I have on my list George for problems with reports, Sue for problems with financials and Bob for phone problems, this goes on for a page and a half. If I did not write it down I would have no idea who to call. I have never met any of these people. If I ran into them in public I would walk right past them, no idea who they are.

          Here the solution is to divide up the questions and ask people who have that responsibility or that knowledge. It’s not an ideal solution because there are still days where a job can get pretty lonely. Setting personal goals for my own work seems to fill up my brain and my day. But also creating my own little challenges to push myself along seems to help. I pick challenges that are mostly doable with a little stretch to them.

          Try not to get caught up in too many griping conversations. It pulls us down in subtle ways. And it does not solve too many things. If you have a couple people who will share gripes with you, perhaps they will brain storm some solutions with you if you ask.

  195. Danielle tillson*

    So I’m wanting to go into an insurance account position. It’s salary and comission. I have less than a year til I have my degree and I’m fully qualified for the position. I saw on glass door in the city next to mine there is a position open pay ranging from 31k-50k. I am wanting to be at 4. I already have an associates degree and graduated with alpha sigma lamba and deans list. I have banking experience but as I said, insurance is going to be new. I am willing to independently get my liscenses before starting the job (the only thing left to need but isn’t required for hire). I have tons or references from my prior employer who will no doubt give me rave reviews. With what I have under my belt, I am trying to get 40k as my salary. Is this unrealistic when I’m about to have a bachelors degree? Also how should I go about this convo when it comes up?

  196. Anon for this*

    Hey all!

    My husband is currently a contractor on a one-year contract that expires in April 2019. We both work in a competitive subfield of tech. The other day, he was telling me his rough timeline for applying for jobs after the contract is up; he mentioned that he would start looking in like February or March.

    I try to stay out of his job search (this is a touchy area for him; he hates job searching and is absolutely miserable while doing it) so I just made an “Mmm-hmm okay!” face, but he asked for my advice, so I mentioned that he might want to start poking around in like November-December and start looking in earnest in January, keeping in mind that it could easily take him at least 3-4 months to find something.

    Thoughts or recommendations?

    1. MiloSpiral*

      Depends on your husband’s field, but I think your advice was sound. You never know when that offer will come–sometimes it takes only a couple months, sometimes it’s more like a year.

      That being said, I guess you can’t control when he actually does start searching? But he’s asking your advice, so.

    2. CAA*

      Is he working through a staffing firm (W-2) or directly contracted (1099) to an employer? If he’s got a staffing firm, he should talk to them in January and see what they have in their pipeline. For in-demand skills, they will likely want to keep him on their payroll if possible and just move him to a new contract.

      Also, if the job market stays hot, then mid-February may be a good time to start looking, assuming he wants to finish out his current contract. If he gets an offer any earlier than the end of March, he’s going to have to make a choice between leaving the current job and declining the new offer.

    3. BRR*

      Sounds about right. He can always ask for a slightly later start date but he can’t speed up the hiring process.

    1. Brooklyn*

      Mmm what? I don’t know. I just know that in NYC everyone comes back from the hamptons in September and hires again. Is that what you mean?

      1. Cdee*

        No, more that the unemployment rate is at the lowest level since 2000. Has this resulted in raise to retain works, getting more calls from recruiters etc.

        1. Zona the Great*

          I feel that it’s hard for me to say. I got my undergrad in 2008. My life has been nothing but hard since and it is finally getting better but maybe that’s a normal timeline…?

  198. Kristin*

    How much do you feel like you have to convince you’re boss of what you’re doing and that you’re doing well? Do you do it at all? My boss hardly talks to me, and when he does, it’s just to complain. He never tells me what he wants. He just complains, and sometimes it’s something he wants me to do, and sometimes it’s not. I told him he needs to tell me what he wants.

    I’m thinking I should maybe type up a document of everything I’ve do as I would for a resume. Thoughts? Does your boss just “notice” when you do things?

    1. Tara R*

      No, my boss doesn’t notice when I do things and I don’t think she even really knows what I do. If I forget something, I’ll hear about that. If I complain about the workload, it will be dismissed and if I quit, they’ll usually end up either hiring two people to do the job, or they’ll substantially redistribute the workload.

    2. Buu*

      This sound like a bad boss. If you’ve literally asked him what he wants you to do and he won’t tell you, he is either a bad communicator or he doesn’t actually know and is covering up his deficiencies by blaming you.

      1. Kristin*

        Yeah, that’s about right! I even asked him straight up and he kept telling me I shouldn’t have to do this or this or this. And I was like, do you want me to? And he kept complaining. It took me 15 minutes to finally get him to acknowledge he was being confusing. And even then, he still wouldn’t tell me to do anything or say “I want.” I mean, he IS a terrible boss. I don’t know what to do.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I had several people recommend to me to keep a spreadsheet of what projects I worked on, my role, some notes on whether it was proprietary, any publications/patents associated with it, and who could be a reference (either for me or the project). I highly recommend it, not just for informing your (out of touch) boss of what you do, but there are multiple good reasons.

      First, keeping track of all my accomplishments was to help support any case I wanted to make for promotion or raises. Also, since I had a rotating slate of managers the last five years I worked at my previous job, most of whom were not familiar with me before I was assigned to them, it helped them know what my background and capabilities were. Finally, now that I don’t work there, it really helped me remember that I actually did a boatload of stuff across a pretty wide range of roles, and I review it every time I have an interview so I can associate multiple different stories with probable behavioral questions.

  199. Brooklyn*

    I think my boss has a crush on me. I feel like he hired me because he saw me as this… magical being who would swoop in and just solve all of his problems. It’s super weird. He’d never say or do anything inappropriate, and he’s never done anything like that or anything creepy, but I feel like, I can just tell. Obviously, I did not swoop in and solve all his problems. I’m not magical. And I can’t be proactive at problems that I don’t know exist, or things that my colleagues keep telling me not to do. After being at the company for a little while now, he seems disappointed. I feel like it’s because he did not make his expectations clear about what the job was, and because I’m not this magical human who could swoop in and make his life more meaningful or something. Ugh….

    2. LuckySophia*

      Sadly, this is not uncommon, especially in smaller to mid-size businesses that are either outgrowing their founder’s capability to manage them….or in situations the business growth has leveled off, and the owner doesn’t personally know how to fix it. So the owner decides that “new blood/new ideas” will magically restore the company’s productivity, or profitability, or cachet in the marketplace.

      Two ad agencies I knew of regularly hired “new blood” into fairly powerful positions. It happened so often that the staff always jokingly referred to the new hire as “Fergus’s New Messiah!” Unfortunately, no New Messiah was ever given (a) all the information or (b) enough authority to fix “all” of what was wrong. So the owner was inevitably disappointed, and the average tenure of the New Messiahs was somewhere between 1 and 2 years.

      In your situation….maybe do what you can to uncover/discover/resolve issues, and whatever you can to get boss to articulate what “the problems” are….but if you sense your boss’s disappointment and frustration keep increasing…time to dust off your resume and and do some job searching, for your own sanity.

      1. Brooklyn*

        Anything I should look for when finding a new job? I didn’t catch the red flags but… I was also unemployed when I was offered this job, so I wasn’t looking too hard for them.

        1. LuckySophia*

          Great question! Thinking back to a time when I actually (inadvertently!) *was* the New Messiah at one job…(LOL, until … I *wasn’t!*), here are things I can see in hindsight: It was a very small business with a mercurial/capricious creative owner. He aggressively recruited me, and treated me as a peer from the get-go in terms of collaborating on business management /administrative /staffing decisions. Like your guy, it turned out he was looking for “magic fixes”. I was able to (& encouraged to!) introduce better internal systems for a lot of things, and I was bringing in more business, and for the first year? 18 months? he was happy. But over time, some of my “better internal systems” (like delivering work to clients at, not after, the promised deadline) made him chafe…made him all the more determined to do it his way, to remind me that HE was the BOSS!

          Ultimately my success in bringing in business threatened his image of himself as “the star.” I realized that when, minutes after returning from a meeting where I landed Our Biggest Account EVER, he called me into his office. To congratulate me on boosting our revenues? Nooooo, to scold me for having the secretary re-type a client memo multiple times. (Because all her versions had errors.) In that moment, I finally realized I had become the NOT Messiah, though actually my tenure had ended months earlier when he hired a NEW New Messiah — I just was slow to recognize all the signs!

          Most of my boss’s behavior could not have been anticipated/predicted before starting that job, though. But in general, I think, to dig for red flags you have to try to get into the prospective boss’s head….figure out what IS the “magic fix” they’re looking for. Are their sales in a slump and they want you to revolutionize their new business pitches? Are they looking for a “fixer” to make business operations more productive? Do they want a “helper” who will Handle All The Pesky Details, so they can focus on Big Ideas? I’m sure Alison’s archives have some good scripts for getting prospective bosses to “blue sky” how they see a role, how they envision you growing within that role, what would be the most valuable thing you could contribute within the first 6 months? First year? Two years? That said, there are some bosses out there that just engage in non-rational thinking, and although you may please them briefly, there is no way you can (logically, rationally) perform in a way that will make a non-rational boss happy, long-term.

  200. Seastar*

    Venting:

    I’m legally blind. My state’s Commission for the Blind put me through expensive college and an expensive internship with the goal of a permanent full-time job in a solid field. Instead, I’ve had a series of temporary jobs, a permanent full-time job that I left because I couldn’t maintain a commute and a life in a car-dependent area (and was severely depressed), and now a very part-time job I’ve had for nearly three years. The Commission closed my case when I got the permanent full-time job, and I felt I had failed them when I left it. This week, I met with a caseworker about reopening my case, seeking their assistance as I try to advance in more diverse fields but find myself in a rut without guidance or support on figuring out where my transferable skills can take me and how to navigate the pursuit of employment with multiple disabilities. They confirmed that they can’t fund any more “job development” for me, after all they have already done. It makes sense, but I don’t know why they met with me in the first place if it was a foregone conclusion, or if I said the wrong thing about my current goals and the work I’ve done since we last talked two years ago, when they expressed a complete lack of faith in me. It feels cruddy to be told that a) my former jobs “didn’t work” to secure my career because they weren’t full-time permanent except the one I resigned from, but b) I’m not at the beginning of my career anymore, even though I’m trying to pursue different types of work than the nature/environmental education I’ve been lucky to have mostly done. Also, they think I shouldn’t relocate for work because the one I resigned from was unsustainable due to its location (not my fitness for that kind of work), but remain dubious that I can find work in the small city where I live and thrive. My feelings on that are complicated by the fact that I don’t want to leave this place but don’t want to rule out ever relocating for work of the type I love best. They say they have faith in my ability to make it on my own, but…I feel cruddy. And don’t know what to do now. The most comprehensive local vocational rehab agency for the disabled can’t serve me, because they would need funding specifically for that from the Commission for the Blind, who can’t give it.

    But if I’m pursuing a sufficiently permanent and full-time job that would serve to firmly establish me somewhere, they can help pay for accommodations if the employer wouldn’t, which is a relief to know.

    1. Mimmy*

      Hi, are you me?

      I am visually impaired with additional disabilities as well. I too have been feeling stuck, so I empathize with everything you’re saying (except for the relocation part – I’m not in that situation yet, but time will tell…)

      While I’m not at the beginning either (I’m in my 40s), I still feel like I can never get out of the starting gate. I have not had a permanent, full-time job since 2005!! Everything else has been part-time, including my current job.

      My Commission for the Blind caseworker actually fought to keep my case open despite the fact I’m employed at the moment. It is a part-time position but it is technically a temporary classification. I am not entirely thrilled with my job, hence why my case is still open. The key for me is to keep on top of things – because he has such a high case load, it’s on me to contact him if I need help with something. As wonderful as he is, though, his hands are probably tied in the amount of guidance he can provide; in my experience, vocational rehabilitation seems to work best for those who have a good idea of the type of work/career they want to pursue. I too have been trying to figure out whether my skills are transferable to the types of roles I’m considering. Or if my emotional health will even allow for doing said types of roles.

      Hang in there, seastar, and I wish you all the best in your endeavors!

      1. Seastar*

        Thanks, and I’m sorry this is your situation too. It really helps to have someone on your side. I got my first and best job — ranger at a national park — because I slightly knew someone there who told me about the Schedule A Hiring Authority for hiring disabled people without using the competitive point-system that doomed my first application, got me to apply belatedly for a differenr position through Schedule A, and worked to make sure my paperwork went through. Though the Commission for the Blind did something similar for the full-time permanent federal job that I was pressured into taking and found so unsustainable in a maginally-livable place. Having primarily worked those federal jobs where being disabled was advantageous in hiring process if not the actual job, I have little experience in concealing it from potential employers — it always comes out in the interviews, because visual impairment is only semi-visible and I was impatient to learn whether it was a job I could physically do. The Comission caseworker said no one would want to hire someone they knew was disabled, and implied that I should trust that I’ll be able to get accomodations from them, if not the employer, if it’s the right kind of job. My current part-time work at a tiny local organization is technically self-employment as an independent contractor, with no beneifts or chance of advancement, which people at the Commission (and other government service providers) neither understand nor approve of. I’m proud of what I’ve done and learned there, and it’s the only job I’ve been able to get (originally through volunteering), so I hate having it not be seen as a success. Its existence isn’t the reason they can’t open my case; they say they just can’t help me any more.

  201. Job Hopper*

    Here’s my dilemma. I’m a finalist for a very good paying job and I have reason to believe that I have a very very good chance of getting it. However the pace at which the H.R. department is moving is glacial. I can’t really expect to get an offer until October or November and I really need to have some money coming in. I’ve signed up at a couple of temporary employment agencies, but they don’t have enough steady work for me to make ends meet.

    I’m thinking of applying for, and possibly working at, a big box store, but then quitting if really good paying job makes me an offer. I feel like doing this is kind of lousy, but I am a bit desperate. If this situation happens I wouldn’t list the big box store on my resume. How bad do you think I would be if I do this?

  202. Emelle*

    So I accepted a job last week as an “as needed teapot trainer”. I am still in the paperwork stage and haven’t started. Today I got a call from a different teapot training co that I interviewed with in May, who said they would call in the fall *if* they decided to do the type of training I am qualified to run. They want me to work under their head trainer and basically do some coaching in a 1:1 situation. This is what I love and probably what I am going back to school for. However, I don’t want to burn the bridge of the original place that offered me the job that hasn’t started yet. How do I bow out gracefully?

    1. Alianora*

      This is a situation where I think a phone call to the first employer is warranted. Follow up with an email. Be as warm as possible. I wouldn’t go into a ton of detail about how great the new job is, just be apologetic and thank them for the opportunity.

  204. Sapphire*

    So this is probably a weird question, but how do other people set up their out-of-office messages? I’ve set them up to send after I leave the office before a vacation, and stop the day before I come back, but is there an etiquette to this sort of schedule? I really have no clue.

    1. Canadian Natasha*

      I’ve never been given instruction on the etiquette of OoO messages but I always start mine about half an hour before I leave on my last day of work (since I won’t have time to worry about things that come in that late anyway) and keep it on until the end of the day before I come back. For example, if I was gone from Sept 2nd to 15th and back on the 16th, I’d set it to start at 4:30 p.m. on Sept. 1 and turn off at 11:59 p.m. on Sept. 15. I also have a generic out of office message something like this:

      Canadian Natasha will be away from the office from Sunday, September 2, 2018 until Saturday, September 15, 2018 inclusive and will return on Sunday, September 16, 2018. For any urgent matters, please contact BLAHBLAHBLAH at NUMBER EMAIL.

      If it makes a difference, I’m in an administrative field.

    2. LGC*

      Not weird at all!

      I get a lot of customer requests, so I’ll set mine to go up at end of business when I l leave and end about an hour before I’m scheduled to return. So, if I’m off for a week, it’ll be from – say – 5 PM Friday to 8 AM the Monday I come back. But that’s my preference (and it’s worked pretty well for me).

    3. Nana*

      I like setting it up for thirty minutes before I leave. But I also give myself time on return, saying “I’ll be back on Tuesday, the 5th” when I’m really getting back to the office on Monday, the 4th. Gives me a chance to breathe, settle in, go through Stuff that’s piled up…

  205. New To This*

    This is a serious life question that has creeped into my work life…

    I need to talk shop with a business acquaintance whom I haven’t spoken with in about three years. We got along very well back then but as our job duties changed we were separated and sadly, I didn’t keep contact with him.

    Then about 2 years ago, his 20-something daughter was kidnapped and murdered. The tragic story made regional headlines and the case was solved quickly. I never reached out with condolences because I was having some intense family issues of my own at the time.

    Now I need to meet him again. What do I say? I’m thinking “I hope you and your family are well and have found peace.” Maybe just his hand with some soul and say “I hope you’re well”… I can’t just NOT say anything, you know? Any ideas?

    1. Erin*

      I don’t think you should say anything actually. It would be for you, to manage your own feelings. He’s expecting to have a business meeting. Have that.

    2. Alianora*

      I think the kindest thing would be not to say anything, unless he brings it up. Springing such a deeply personal topic on him when he’s meeting you for business purposes isn’t likely to help him. Just saying “Nice to see you again, I hope you’ve been well” when you meet is fine.

  206. Vivi*

    How about using Midwest no Jutsu?

    Just put on your “polite face” – not sarcastic face, not impatient face, but a very obviously not-engaged face. Don’t say “uh huh” or nod or give any encouragement – but don’t roll your eyes or frown or look away either. Convey the sense that you are listening politely but only out of social obligation.

    Wait for the blah-blah-blah to peter out completely.

    Then – this is important – hold eye contact, and keep the polite face.

    Pause.

    Pause.

    Say, “Well aren’t you helpful?” You have to do this one with a very particular tone, like a child has just shown you their drawing, but it’s the eighth one in as many seconds. A Minnesota accent helps.

    Then you immediately leave.

  207. BookPonyBestPony*

    I keep forgetting to post in here on Fridays (also changed my name to be less recognizable lol)

    So an update on my creepy staring coworker: as it turns out, the week after that, I had been accidentally staring at him as I went about my business in the office, and that must have creeped him out so he’s not staring at me anymore! So now whenever he glances in on his way to the printer, I make sure to make eye contact with him on his way from the printer. Gets him to stop every time. :)

  208. Jo*

    I’m fairly new to the working world, but is it common for managers to ask when employees come in? We recently had a new manager take over a contract and she called my cubemate on her phone to ask when another employee would come in, instead of asking the employee herself. Is that normal?

    1. Buu*

      Well if the other employee isn’t in yet it makes sense to ask someone else rather than bothering other employee on their mobile during the commute. Managers should be aware of when people come in, as they need to know if they are showing up on time or if they want to schedule a start of day meeting. She could be checking up the other employee too if she suspects they are late or not keeping to schedule.
      If she does it a lot then it’d be weird, but she’s probably just getting an idea of when people are available,

  209. Jo*

    That makes sense. I was wondering why the manager would ask someone else instead of the employee directly though.

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