open thread – September 14-15, 2018

by Alison Green on September 14, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. What’s with today, today?*

    Remember last week my 80-something male co-worker asked me (37-female) asked me why I hadn’t made dainties for our staff meeting? He considered dainties to be finger sandwiches, while I’ve always known it to be women’s underwear. Anyway, when he explained they were sandwiches not underwear I told him to ask the man next to him to make the dainties next time. Case closed. I thought.

    Apparently, he told his wife about it, and on Monday, he went on and on during our staff meeting (boss out of town all week) about how his wife just couldn’t believe I thought dainties were underwear, that everyone knows they are desserts, and blah, blah, blah… He has made jokes about dainties everyday this week. Anything from, “We don’t have any dainties in the break room today?” or “Now, you’ve got your dainties on, right?” and, more often, “I just can’t believe you didn’t know what that meant!” Followed by laughter.

    Boss has been gone all week (he’s usually gone at least three days a week, won’t be back until middle of next week). I’m ignoring but about ready to strangle my co-worker. I WILL be discussing this with boss next week. Still just venting, but I’m getting a little fed up. He just thinks this is hilarious. (Again, for those who suggested he may be having a dementia problem, he’s ALWAYS been this way for the 15 years I’ve known him, and 10 years we’ve worked together, my tolerance has just decreased a lot as I get older and bolder and learn from AAM what is reasonable to put up with).

    1. Teapot librarian*

      AAAARGGHHHHHHH. I am SO UNBELIEVABLY sorry that you have had to put up with this for a week. I hope your boss can help put an immediate end to this so that you don’t resort to putting an immediate end to him!

      2. Indie*

        “I wasn’t going to say anything about the sexism of asking me to supply sandwiches but if we’re still talking about it a week later I no longer care about the easy road. You make it impossible. So let’s talk about you and your sexist comments” Then make it as awkward as awkwardly possible. Tell him he is deliberately using a word that means both underwear and food because he thinks that’s all women are good for. That it’s grossly sexist to start making underwear jokes at female colleagues. That his being old is no excuse for immaturity and lack of professionalism.

        I would go there every.time.he.does.it but I am a hothead and I would love both my colleague and my boss giving me the perfect set of excuses to indulge in telling someone off.

        I know the energy cost involved is not for everyone though.

      1. What's with today, today?*

        I did! If you read my post last week, remember he meets any push back on his comments with “Well, I’m old!” When I said the joke was getting old, he said, “Well, today, you know I’M old!”

        1. NotASnowflake*

          That’s ridiculous. Him being old doesn’t excuse being obnoxious. =/

          I’d be tempted to confirm that he is OLD and keep asking when he’s going to retire.

        2. OlympiasEpiriot*

          I probably would, without thinking, say, “Usually when things get old, they start to smell.”

          And, he’d probably be mad at me.

          *shrug*

          Ugg. Advice is document like your life depends on it. Times, dates, words. Keep a notebook.

          1. Observer*

            I agree. You are right to be OVER this garbage. But, you are going to need to document your head off to make a case that will give some chance at getting traction with your management. You are going to have to show that this is really and truly pervasive, and that it’s not just you “over-reacting” to “occasional” jokes.

        3. Kittymommy*

          He could be 180, it doesn’t give him license to be an obnoxious jackass? Gah, I’m so irritated for you!!

        4. Not a Mere Device*

          Every time he says “well, I’m old” answer “Yes, old enough to know better” (even if you’re thinking “12 years old, from the sound of it.”

    3. ContentWrangler*

      Asking if you have underwear on is sooo far past the line, the line is now a dot on the horizon. How are you responding to him? My auto-reaction would be, “what the f* did you just say?” But seeing as this is a workplace – a cold, stern “That’s extremely inappropriate” could work.

      I hope your boss does something about this.

      1. Rachel*

        This was my reaction, too! I am, as the kids say, shook. “Now, you’ve got your dainties on, right?” is so incredibly inappropriate and yucky and reeks of sexual harassment.

      1. What's with today, today?*

        They all mostly roll there eyes at him too, although the other two older employees both knew he meant finger sandwiches, so they kinda think the whole thing is funny.

        1. Michelle*

          “Hmm … you are really loving saying this word that I told you means ‘underwear’ for some people … How is it that you don’t find that inappropriate?”

    5. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

      Are your other co-workers amused when he’s saying this stuff??
      I’d be tempted to respond with ‘I can’t believe you haven’t retired yet’.

      Seriously though, this sounds awful on so many levels!

    6. Long Time Fed*

      If you haven’t told him to stop, he won’t. Tell him to stop. Otherwise, I think you are overreacting.

      1. What's with today, today?*

        Oh, I have, he’s been talked to about it. If you read my post last week, remember he meets any push back on his comments with “Well, I’m old!”

        2. ContentWrangler*

          By old do you mean senile? Is that why you can’t remember how I told you to stop making this joke yesterday?

        3. SaraV*

          “Well, I’m old!”

          “And that excuse is ancient. Knock. It. Off.”

          “Well, I’m old!”

          “Obviously too old to learn when enough is enough. Knock. It. Off.”

          Repeat ad nauseum.

    7. Work Wardrobe*

      I can’t even. Have you told him to just STFU already please? Because I would NOT be able to hold back.

    8. Ewww*

      “Now, you’ve got your dainties on, right?” could be considered sexual harassment. That honestly made my skin crawl. I’m glad you’re not giving him a pass just because he’s from a generation where rampant sexism was tolerated. I’d be talking to HR ASAP.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        Seriously. He knows damn well what he’s doing and is using the “I’m old” excuse to get away with it. Don’t let him. Tell him to stop, document it, and file a complaint. That’s gross.

        1. Snickerdoodle*

          Also, if you’re female, the “joking” expectation that you’re supposed to provide food for him is sexist AF and another issue to be addressed.

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            Seriously–if I’m reading a Victorian novel and they enter a tearoom and order a pot of tea and a selection of dainties, I think finger sandwiches and small scones. Because context.

            Unless you are a catering company, there is no reason for him to nag you about making him a sandwich and so ‘dainties’ is going to just hang there being weird.

      2. nep*

        I’m super late so this is pretty much futile, but just have to chime in
        THIS
        So F*ing wrong on any and all levels for anyone to say this to anyone in a workplace.
        I’m gagging.

    9. Sally*

      What a jerk.

      And FWIW, I have only heard of dainties as underwear. Dictionary.com says it’s both:
      – of delicate beauty; exquisite: a dainty lace handkerchief.
      – pleasing to the taste and, often, temptingly served or delicate; delicious: dainty pastries.

    10. Kes*

      Ugh. I would have assumed they’re food, but it’s gross that he assumed you would make them, and that he won’t let the joke die. It might have been funny once, but that’s awkward and annoying to keep going on about. Hopefully at some point he’ll move on.

      1. Marthooh*

        Yes. For anyone who’s still unclear, this is what the phrase “hostile work environment” means (or “really very rude” in Canada).

    12. Phoenix Programmer*

      Some ideas for anytime he goes on and on.

      All said on a dry flat bored tone.
      “This joke is tired. Let’s move on.”
      “Are you still on about that?”
      “……..” With a flat bored face.

      A
      But when he makes a joke about if you are wearing dainties that’s different. Try in a serious but calm tone:
      “Wow. Did you just ask me if I am wearing underwear”
      After he laughs
      “That’s inappropriate. Don’t talk about my underwear”
      When he claims hese notcause ‘dainties mean sandwiches’ cut him off with
      “I don’t care what term you use. When you ask me am I wearing dainties today you are clearly referencing underwear. That is gross and inappropriate and it needs to stop.”

      1. Seriously?*

        Also, in that context, it does not mean sandwich. I don’t see how he could spin it as asking if she is wearing a sandwich.

    13. NotASnowflake*

      Is there something he wouldn’t know anything about that you can taunt him about too?

      Probably not the best example but, “Creepy Rude Dude, I can’t believe you don’t use Roku. EVERYONE use Roku. How do you even watch TV and movies? I told my whole family you don’t know what Roku is and they were flabbergasted. Did you get a Roku yet? When are you getting a Roku?”

    14. AnonEMoose*

      Maybe some variant of “Wow. Not only are you beating the dead horse, you’ve hired Dr. Frankenstein to revivify it. And now it stinks and bits are falling off”?

    15. SleepyInSeattle*

      Have you just said, “this joke is getting old. You’ve made your point. Please stop bringing this up.”

      Not everyone picks up on eyerolls. He’s being rude. You should have no qualms about very direct in asking him to knock it off.

    17. Workerbee*

      If this would work…start a rumor that Mr. Old is retiring. Circulate a card. Order a cake (using corporate funds, of course). When he protests, say, “Oh, did you forget that you’d announced your retirement? Must be nice to be OLD!”

      …I heartily sympathize with what you’re going through. He probably was this way even when he was young; he just used different excuses to keep from being accountable for his obnoxious behavior, and has been allowed to get away with it. (I also doubt that his wife really was So Aghast about the dainties/underwear mixup; he seems to hear what he wants to hear or will fill in his own interpretation if reality doesn’t suit.)

      I hope your boss will DO something concrete about it.

      1. Binky*

        I’d be concerned that that may amount to a hostile work environment based on a protected characteristic (over 40) – which actually is illegal.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              Seriously. People are only going to respond to your revenge fantasies the way they do in the fantasy if you keep them as fanfic. Don’t start executing them in the real world, where the target and witnesses haven’t agreed to their lines.

        2. Marion Ravenwood*

          I agree. For similar reasons, I wouldn’t use any of the suggested retorts along the lines of ‘that joke isn’t the only thing old enough to retire’. (The exception might be ‘old enough to know better’ in response to ‘but I’m old!’, because that could arguably be applied to pretty much anyone of working age, but it’s still a bit risky.)

      2. Dirty Paws*

        This is my favorite reply. Can you buy a Happy Retirement card and somehow start circulating it among your co-workers without anyone knowing that you started it? And if he points a finger at you, you would just say “Why would I do that? What have you ever done to me to make me want to do that?”

        1. Workerbee*

          Thoughts like these have made it possible for me to grin & bear it when dealing with the long-lived odious.

          1. Workerbee*

            Thanks! :) We’ve got one of those “When are they going to retire?” folks with behavior that ranges from dubious to obnoxious, so we’ve bandied around fond fantasies like this.

            I can’t edit or I’d go back and put in a sarcasm tag for good faith.

    18. Myrin*

      Contrary to his proclaimed old age, he’s being annoyingly childish here. I mean… you didn’t know a word/knew a word with a different meaning to what he knew.
      …
      So?
      That can be a chuckle-worthy misunderstanding the moment it happens, but certainly not something to harp on for over a week. It’s not that funny, dude, seriously.

    19. Anono-me*

      He is being ridiculous, icky and completely out of line professionally.

      While I would suggest responding to any more bad jokes about underwear with a firm “That’s not appropriate, nor is it funny.” However, I would take the high road and not make any old age comments, even when he does. Both to keep the moral high ground and to avoid any retaliatory claims of agism once your boss returns and calls Mr. Ick on the carpet.

    20. Crylo Ren*

      Maybe I’m just blunt but honestly I’d just call this out for what it is when he does it. Tell him straight up that it’s sexist and inappropriate. If he comes back with “Well, I’m old!”, then repeat: “It’s inappropriate and you need to knock it off.” I’m glad you’re going to discuss it with your boss and I hope you have the outcome you’re hoping for.

    21. Not So NewReader*

      People who repeat themselves like this are super annoying.

      Visibly, with in his range of sight, start writing in a note book. Date, time, remark, let him see you doing it.
      Instead of replying to the context of the remark, say out loud “Monday, 9/17, 1o am. Bob asked me if I had my dainties on”. Next time, talking out loud as you write, “Monday 9/17, 10:35 am. Bob asked me if there were dainties in the break room.” Notice you are not making any comments in your notes,you are just jotting down exactly what was said. Read out loud what you are writing for added emphasis.

      If he tells you to stop writing it down, you tell him you can only stop when he finally stops. This one takes a moment to sink in and work, so hang in there and keep writing.

    22. Squirrel*

      By gone do you mean your boss is on vacation or working remotely/traveling for work? Honestly if he’s not “on vacation”, I would schedule a call with him as soon as possible to get this on his radar. Of course, document in the meantime and shut him down with “It’s not funny, please stop” and all the other scripts suggested, but you shouldn’t have to be in a hostile work environment longer than you need to.

      1. Indie*

        I really like this. Maybe email something like: “I’ve been letting olddude’s sexist remarks go past me but they are getting so offensive that I am going to have to ask you to act. He went from asking me to provide sandwiches for a meeting to asking me if I am wearing underwear (hes using a play on the word dainties meaning both sandwiches and food) This latest ‘joke is being rehashed on almost a daily basis for a week now. Of course I have asked him to stop and that I consider the language sexist but he is under the impression the company allows this behaviour if you’re ‘old’.

    23. Traffic_Spiral*

      Man, I’d start getting out the spray bottle like he was a cat that I wanted off the furniture, and everytime he said some crap I’d be like “no, [name], no creepy comments. no.” Then if he complained, I’d be like “well, telling you to cut it out doesn’t seem to work, so we’re trying this.”

      Ok, so maybe I wouldn’t, but I’d want to.

        1. Traffic_Spiral*

          Well the beauty of it is if he complains, the reason for the spray bottle has to be addressed, and then it’s like “well, how else can we stop you from acting like this? Since you’re so old that you can’t understand words, and all.”

    24. Nacho*

      Is there any way you can explain to him that he’s an old fart and the meaning of the word changed some time after all the dinosaurs died out?

    26. bunniferous*

      Realistically the only way to respond to this is ….to not respond. Every single time he goes on and on about this just put him on ignore. Don’t say a word to him, walk away if you can, in other words pretend that you can’t hear him. Don’t reinforce it by giving him any attention-and yes, he is doing this to get attention.

    28. BadWolf*

      Would a deadpan, “Gross” and walk away/change topics get you anywhere?

      Tempted to tell him to call up someone in the UK and inquire about their fanny packs… See how funny he thinks different meanings are then.

    29. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I’d be really tempted to ask him if his wife knows that he’s talking to a coworker about her underwear every day.

    30. Belle of the Midwest*

      Maybe it’s because I have had a long week and I’m so tired that everything is either funny or annoying, but I would be so sorely tempted to start calling him “Dainty-dude” every time I see him. “Hey Dainty-dude, have you seen my TPS reports?” “Dainty-dude, what time is the staff meeting?” I might even sing, “oh Dainty-dude, the pipes, the pipes are calling. . .”

    31. Someone Else*

      This is especially ridiculous of him since he could presumably check a dictionary, rather than just his wife, and find both usages.

    32. mcr-red*

      Well I’ve never heard of dainties as a food or underwear so…

      But at this point, if he brings it up as in, “Why didn’t you know what it meant? Or why don’t you bring them in for me?” tell him “This isn’t the 1950s, that’s why!” If he asks about “Are your dainties on?” ask him if he’s ever heard of the “Me Too movement” and walk away. Even if you’re in a meeting, walk away. A good walk out kind of let’s the air out of the room and gives everyone a pause.

    33. fogharty*

      Hi Old Worker! How are your drawers today? Are your drawers clean? Do you even use drawers, I wonder? Must get messy if you don’t. Are your drawers full? Hmmm… something smells off, do you have something stinky in your drawers?

      What? I was talking about your desk! That can mean underwear too? I didn’t know that…. I’m young!

    34. tink*

      He sounds like one of those jerks that mentally gets off on knowing he’s annoying other people and they can’t do anything about it. Middle school me suggests jabbing a pencil through his hand.

    35. Londoncallingbutafterhourswhenratesarecheaper*

      Next time he makes the dainties comment, make eye contact with him. Do not break the eye contact, wait for him to stop laughing and then say, “Bob, you are the only person I know who can make a sexist comment, not only find it funny but keep laughing about it for a week”.
      Any response he makes (its a joke/I’m kidding/you just dont have a sense of humour) gets the follow up — “Bob, it just isn’t funny.” or “Bob, you are the only one laughing at your ‘jokes'”

    36. Close Bracket*

      Not only am I sorry that you have to put up with this jackass, but I am sorry people are being so dismissive of your assessment that they are grasping at dementia straws to excuse his behavior. Some people are just jerks. He is one of them. I’m sorry. You have my permission to hiss “If you ask me about my dainties one more time, I will shiv you.”

    37. Anonymous Ampersand*

      “I don’t get why that’s funny”

      “I still don’t understand why that’s funny. Can you explain it?”

      Or, y’know, just give him a blank stare, wait until it’s uncomfortable, then move onto a work related topic. Or “I’ve got to get back to work”. Whatever you do, don’t laugh or smile.

      Good luck. He sounds absolutely obnoxious.

    38. Carol*

      I have to add that I’m a 60-year-old woman who has always thought that dainties are women’s underwear.

    39. Database Developer Dude*

      And you haven’t killed him yet? I want to be you when I grow up, that’s an impressive amount of self control there… I admire that.

    40. skyline9*

      This is totally textbook harassment. You’ve probably already said some variation of this, but at your next opportunity, I would say as directly as possible, “These comments are inappropriate for the workplace, and I am telling you they are unwelcome and need to stop immediately. I am not going to repeat this request.” Even better if you can do this in front of witnesses. I’d also follow that up with an email to him documenting your request in writing, and then forward it to your manager so they have a copy. And document the fuck out of anything and everything.

      And frankly, if you have an office anti-harassment policy, you and anyone else who has witnessed it is probably required to report it to a manager or HR.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Op, you have the patience of a saint. I would be lighting this guy up with every old person underwear crack I could think of. He makes a crack about you wearing underwear, you crack back by asking what people did before underwear was invented You know, because he’s old. That would get me absolutely rolling and I’d start asking him about what they did before ‘xyz’ got invented…cars, trains, etc. I usually stop when I get to electricity.

        They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That’s* the *Chicago* (and the Ask A Manager) way!

  2. Doug Judy*

    I am interviewing next week for a position that is remote. I have occasionally worked from home, like a day here and there, but this would be about 95% remote, with a few times a year at the corporate office. The corporate office is 1.5 hours away from me, and I could go work in the office occasionally if I wanted/needed to. The company seems great and makes an effort to make a virtual collaborative environment. As a mom, I am excited about the possibility of having more work/life integration, where the seeing the school call me to come get my sick child doesn’t send me into an immediate panic, or having to use all my PTO for appointments or random school days off.

    However, I know working from home isn’t perfect and has its own set of challenges. If you work/have worked in mostly a remote capacity, give me the good, bad and ugly.

    1. anna green*

      I actually just left a position exactly like this! The office was 1.25 hours away and I worked from home most days but went in to the office at least once per week. Honestly, I hated working from home. I found it lonely. I did it for 5 years though, because I have young kids, and it was incredibly convenient. When they were sick, snow days, school holidays, etc., it was no problem they just stayed home with me. Of course, the challenge to that is its hard to get in a full days work with kids at home, so then I would need to work in the evenings/early mornings to make it up. So, I did sometimes feel like I was always working and it was hard to separate my time. Now that I am at a different job, its stressful when there are snow days and kids sick because I have to scramble, but I’ve been able to work it out and when I am home, I am home, and I like that.

      I eventually left that job for numerous reasons, but one of them was because I was starting to get depressed from being by myself all the time. If you are the type of person who likes being alone then you may not have that problem, I know lots of people love it, and many people don’t understand why I hated it.

      1. Avid reader infrequent commenter*

        100%, all of that. And I actually adore my alone time! But working from home was just way too isolating in the end.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Yeah, that was part of it for me too. I’m an introvert who loooooooves solitude, but working by myself all day was still disorienting for me.

      2. BF50*

        I love my alone time and I can see the huge convenience from working from home, but on the days when I do, I find it too isolating. I have to turn on the TV in the other room because the silence bothers me. I’ve occasionally worked for an hour or two at a coffee shop, which I really enjoy, but I don’t like that aspect of working from home.

        I do love being able to walk the kids to school, not getting dressed until lunch time, not having to deal with traffic, being able to throw on a load of laundry over my lunch hour, and an array of other things, but I don’t think I would like 100% remote work. I would feel to isolated.

      3. Hamburke*

        My husband works remotely (home office is 3/4 the way across the country, he’s never been there) and I used to work remotely.
        Hubby thrives – he loves the quiet house with few interruptions, he likes wearing tees and cargo pants to work, he likes everything about working from home. But he definitely wants to do something out of the house on the weekend.
        I’m more social and was lonely working full time from home. I liked the convienince of being able to grab the kids if needed (although I was responsible for answering phones so I did have set hours). Now, I work out of my boss’s home. It’s a nice in between – there is someone else in the office most of the time but it’s not bussling & busy like some offices I’ve worked in. But since I’m gone all week, I want to cozy up at home all weekend!

        FYI – there was overlap of 9 months where we both worked from home but we have separate offices so I only saw him for lunch or water breaks. And our kids are older – youngest is in middle school, oldest graduates high school this year.

    2. Phoenix Programmer*

      The reality of working from home – especially in an environment where most don’t wfh – is that you are slacking. My general experience is I put in more hours and face time to combat this perception bit to me it is worth it. Mainly because it is less stressful to me to be home working and I am more productive with less interruptions.

      2. Lexi Kate*

        I’ll second that everyone at least passively assumes you are slacking off watching tv, playing with your kids, doing housework even if you are on all the time and turn in more work than anyone.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          I think this really depends how much of the office is remote. I freelance, which is different, but in my remote meetings a good portion of the staff are calling in from home (one can tell by the dogs), and your reputation is set by whether you meet your deadlines with solid work–what you did with your time in order to send off your part of the project before 9 am Thursday isn’t of interest to anyone.

          2. Doug Judy*

            Yes this is almost an exclusively remote office. They have a corporate space and you are welcome to work out of there whenever you would like but by and large everyone is at home. I think that does make a huge difference because working remote is the norm there.

            1. ten-four*

              The key point is that the company is remote first, so it wouldn’t just be you off by yourself. My company is remote-first too, and I have adjusted to this really well for the reasons you outline: I have two kids (and was pregnant my first year so I was sick and cranky), and working from home makes my life So. Much. Easier.

              I do miss working more collaboratively – oh whiteboards, I love you – but the benefits outweigh the negatives for me to the point where I can’t imagine wedging a commute back into my working life.

              Not everyone weathered the transition to remote-first (the company shifted right when I joined). For me the key is that I can turn it off when my day is over, and that took a little practice. Also my job involves a lot of meetings so I still get a fair bit of people/face time, and I can walk my kiddos to school in the morning, so I still get out of the house.

              I actually thought I’d want to work outside the house a lot more often than I do. A bunch of my peers meet at co-working spaces or the office, for example. It turns out that I just…don’t want to bother because I can get a lot done at home and I’m too lazy to go out.

              All of which is to say that working remote first can be extremely awesome if your temperament fits.

              1. ten-four*

                Argh, I forgot an important thing: it’s harder to get integrated into a remote-first company when you start working. There’s no easy way to chit chat over coffee or wander over to say hi to folks – all the interactions are very intentional, which took me a while to adjust to. It felt presumptuous to put myself on calendars for intros/chitchat, but I found that no one minded and it made my life easier. It also took a while to figure out how to communicate around work – slack vs. email vs. video chat. Ultimately my relationships got built through working with people and proving myself, and that just takes longer.

                1. Doug Judy*

                  Thanks for this! One of the questions I have is how they integrate new people in a remote environment.

                  The work is still people and relationship forward, and I would still be getting out of the house for client meetings.

                  From what everyone seems to be saying it can be isolating but I think I can set things up so I still have human interaction and make it a point to sometimes go work in a public space.

                2. BF50*

                  You know, I’ve found that outside my individual team, I don’t really know who is working remotely vs who is not. Our office is not remote first and most people work in office, but have the option to work remotely when needed. One teammate works remote one day a week, but there are several people who are living in different states. In fact when one moved, half our team didn’t notice she was remote because she sat on the other side of the building.

      3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Ugh, yes — putting in the extra time to make up for the perception (or my own perception!) that I was slacking off. I never got comfortable taking advantage of the best parts of working from home — I didn’t go work out in the middle of the day, or take a nap when I was tired, or whatever. I just plowed through the regular work day and then kept working later into the evening because I was stressed out.

        (I know I’m all over this thread, and I’ll take it down a notch. This conversation has reminded me of how stressed out and unhappy I was in that situation!)

      4. OhGee*

        Yup, and one way to minimize this is to always be on top of your stuff, and never tell coworkers anything like “i’m wearing sweatpants” or “I’m working from bed with my three dogs” (yes, a teammate — who became uncommunicative when he went full time remote — announced that in a chat channel one day), even if it’s true, because it reinforces their assumptions about your remote ‘work’.

    3. 99 lead balloons*

      If you make it to the offer stage – I moved and took my office job with me and I really wish I had asked for a laptop in addition to or instead of a desktop. With a desktop computer that meant I couldn’t work at a coffee shop for a change of scenery or work on my back patio when the weather was nice.

      It’s nice to be able to choose your own music or put on a tv show you’ve watched a million times while doing stuff like data entry/file cleanup, choose the strength of the coffee/tea, and use mental breaks to throw in a load of laundry or dust something.

      Definitely ask for examples of what that virtual collaboration looks like practically. How often do remote workers usually interact with each other or their office counterparts etc.?

      1. Doug Judy*

        I think they have daily Skype calls with whatever team you are working with, so you do get some face to face every day. I will for sure ask what else they do to make it interactive.
        I like the laptop idea too. I live in the northern part of the Midwest, so being able to work outside for a bit would be nice to take advantage of the 80 days a year we have nice weather, or like you said go to a coffee place just to get a change of scenery seems like a good idea.

        I am a big fan of letting Parks and Rec play on Netflix while I do mindless tasks, except when it asks me if I am still watching. Yes, I am Netflix, stop judging me!

    4. Sally*

      I mostly worked from home for the last 6 years, and I’m so relieved that I have a desk in my new office and that I’m expected to be there every day (barring the occasional WFH day because of an appointment). I should say that I’m an extrovert, so it was hard on me being home by myself (with the dogs) every day. But it was also very convenient! I could get up at 8:00, walk the dogs, and then fix everyone’s breakfast while working. I didn’t have to shower or get dressed if I didn’t want to unless there was a video conference meeting. BTW, I highly recommend taking advantage of all opportunities for video conference. Otherwise, it’s really easy to feel disconnected from everyone else in the office, even if you have lots of phone meetings. Now I get up at 6:00 and get ready, walk the dogs, feed the dogs, etc. before I leave the house.

      I really had to be disciplined to stay at the desk in my home office and work when I was supposed to be working. That’s much harder when no one’s going to see you go grocery shopping and stop by Marshall’s on the way home in the middle of the day. I think doing laundry, making lunch, etc. are fine to do while WFH because they don’t take very long, but in the last couple of years, I found myself napping or doing other time-consuming things, and I wasn’t actually doing 8 hours or work per day, and I felt pretty bad about that.

      So I’m more tired now – still not able to get into bed by 9:30 (new job started just a few weeks ago). But I really like being in the office with my team, and I can stop by someone’s desk on the way to the coffee machine and have a quick conversation, which previously would have required an IM (and the realization that I wanted to ask them something without the benefit of walking past their desk).

      I hope this is helpful.

      1. Sally*

        Oh, and I meant to say that when I was working from home, I would pick up my laptop and work in the evenings. Now when I go home, I don’t do any work until the next day in the office, which I prefer.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        I think remote work is best suited for introverts–possibly even introverts with roommates, so you’re going to be getting some personal interaction when spouse/kids/friends return home, with no conscious effort on your part.

        I could see it working for an extrovert if they do well with focused alone time, and have an established social network so that lunches or other chances to interact are easily incorporated in the week.

    5. Bigintodogs*

      I hate it. My entire team is offshore so I rarely talk to anyone all day. It’s boring and depressing. I know I have a unique experience because my job is really weird, but I’m looking for a new job because the remote aspect is terrible.

    6. BRR*

      I work from home most days while most of my company works in the office. I find it hard sometimes to stay focused. Being in an office helps keep me accountable. I would like a mild amount of in-person interactions some days and can’t work form anywhere besides home. I think being mostly remote has killed any upward mobility I might have had. My employer has a tendency to be out of sight out of mind (not on purpose but it’s happened). Since my manager isn’t that involved in my work, they have no clue how I’m operating at a higher level than my position and I think don’t really see me being able to grow.

      1. Doug Judy*

        The company as a whole is mostly remote and is something they promote as part of their company perks, so I think that makes a difference. I would not want to work from home where mostly everyone else is working in the office for the exact reasons you described.

    7. MosaicLife*

      I work from home four days a week and go into the office one day. I love working from home. It’s not a huge deal if your kid needs to stay home, you can do housework when you’d normally be stuck in traffic, you can throw dinner in the crockpot at lunch. I get more work done because there are fewer interruptions. I don’t feel like I have to whisper when I’m on the phone so those in neighboring offices don’t hear every word (especially helpful when I need to pass along negative feedback or sensitive information).
      When I’ve been out of the office a while, I feel a bit disconnected from the group and honestly tend to become a little paranoid. For instance, when my boss is brisk on the phone, I might wonder if something is up, when if I were in the office, I might pass by her and have a very normal interaction, reassuring me that whatever is going on isn’t about me. You do miss out on water cooler chats and making connections with other staff with whom you might not directly interact. So basically, networking is harder. I’m an introvert, so I don’t mind not having the same interaction as those in the office, but I know others feel differently. You also may find you actually work longer hours, as you don’t need to leave right at five because you don’t have to sit in traffic.
      Lastly, you miss out on face-to-face interactions. It’s harder to have tricky conversations over the phone, as you can’t read body language and quickly change directions if needed. So for instance, if I have a big ask of a coworker, I often save it for the day I go to the office (it’s nice to be able to abort the mission if the coworker is sending hard no signals).

    8. Ealasaid*

      I’m working from home right now! I wfh M/W/F at my current gig, and was full time from home on a past multi-year gig. I love working from home SO MUCH. Caveat: I do not have children. I live with my partner (he’s full-time wfh) and our three cats. My partner and I each have an office with a door that closes, which I view as a requirement for successfully working from home.

      Things I like about home:
      – When I take breaks, I can do something that needs doing (put laundry in the dryer, vacuum, work on personal projects, etc)
      – People aren’t coming into my office all the time and I don’t have to deal with rowdy coworkers (I’m in tech; my coworkers have nerf guns)
      – I can really focus on something without being interrupted.

      Things I like about the office:
      – Bonding with coworkers is WAY easier.
      – Getting in touch with my in-office coworkers is a lot easier (I needed to talk with our busybusy VP yesterday and ran into him in the break room, so I could get him to take a couple minutes and talk with me)
      – The office park I work in is super nice, and it’s fun to take my daily walk in a place that’s less familiar than my own neighborhood.
      – It makes the “I am working” boundary super clear. I’m lucky that my partner doesn’t bug me all the time, but I know some folks have trouble getting others in their household to understand that no, working from home does not mean you’re available all the time for whatever they need.

      I like mixing wfh and in-office, myself, but would happily go back to full-time-remote. I am never ever doing full-time-in-the-office if I can possibly avoid it. (I’m a technical writer and need quiet time to actually get my work done.)

    9. Avid reader infrequent commenter*

      I worked part time from home for over 5 years before transferring to a different place in the company and full time. Looking back on it, by far the hardest and most annoying part is that I felt like it was just always THERE, nagging me that I needed to work, even if I’d put in my hours for the week already. There was no “walking away.” I wasn’t in a position that required me to be on call, but it just felt like a constant presence because I *could* work. Motivation was hard and it felt like there was no boundary between work and home. I absolutely love being able to leave my office at 5p now and be 100% done for the day.

      1. Doug Judy*

        Yeah that is I think going to be more of a challenge, but I do have a dedicated office space, so I am hoping that will help a bit with being able to leave it behind and be done for a bit.

        1. soon 2be former fed*

          I have a separate room for my office, and when I enter it I am at work. I had a long commute and don’t miss any of it. Love working at home exclusively.

    10. Red Reader*

      I’m going on four years of fully remote work. I love it, personally, I feel like I have so much extra time that isn’t burned on commuting to and fro or getting ready for work or changing back out of work clothes and whatever. I’m super introverted, so not having to interact with people in person most of the time is wonderful for me.

      I will say – for my employer, it is absolutely not permitted under any circumstances to be the sole caretaker of a child under the age of 12 while on the clock, so if your kid’s school called and told you to come get them or they were otherwise home, you would absolutely still have to use PTO, unless you wanted to risk the lie and violate that policy.

      Other things to consider: who supplies what? My employer provides a laptop, docking station, two monitors, and an optional keyboard/mouse (I prefer my own so I don’t take theirs), but no other equipment or office supplies. They don’t cover any of my internet costs. Before I was management level, if I had to call into a webex I had to either use my personal phone or provide my own headset to connect via computer. I’m required to have a fire extinguisher in the room where I work and to maintain a homeowners or renters insurance policy that will cover the work-owned equipment.

      Work-life balance – depends on you. I’m bad at being home on a workday and not working, and I’ve called in sick once in four years. But I’m fine with that. Some people aren’t. I have one coworker who goes out and walks around her block as her “commute” to put herself into work mode, then does again at the end of her day to “commute home.” Some people make rules about “I always get fully dressed for work” or “I wear shoes while I’m working” or whatever. I’m fine in sweats, lounging on my comfy chair with a dog curled up under me. It’s finding what works for you. And not keeping snack foods in the kitchen. That’s my personal bugaboo – too easy to go grab a snack. On the other hand if I throw a filet of salmon into the rice cooker to steam for lunch, nobody bats an eyelash :)

      1. Doug Judy*

        Good point on clarifying what the provide/cover/reimburse for, I’ll make sure to ask.

        I did do my undergrad online, so I do have some experience having to self manage, and
        “being home, but not home” and having a schedule/routine. The kid thing, from what I gather, as long as it’s occasional and you aren’t trying to care for a young child, it’s ok, but I will clarify. My oldest is almost 13 and the other one is almost 5. I did my grad program a few years ago, so they are used to “Mom needs to do some work upstairs, do not bother me”

        But yes the snacks will be a challenge. I recently lost 40lbs and I do not want to gain it back!

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          I actually thought that eating healthy was one of the big benefits of working from home. Having access the kitchen and my own refrigerator was great.

          Another perk was that working from home meant that I very rarely took a sick day (which was a perk because I had combined PTO, so taking a sick day meant losing a vacation day). I could work from home through most sicknesses; I only actually took a day off if I couldn’t stay awake or upright.

          1. Red Reader*

            it depends on the individual and knowing your own foibles. For me, I have a kitchen full of snacks because everyone else in my house either has a very physical job or the metabolism of a hummingbird and it’s easier to avoid potato chips when eating them involves paying the vending machine.

    11. Emmie*

      I am 100% WFH. I WFH about 2 days / week in my last position.
      – I second everyone’s comments about being isolating or lonely. You have to build an outside social life.
      – WFH doesn’t always mean flexibility. Find out if you have to work structured hours, or if you need to live in specific locations (such as to travel to the home office as you noted, or so the company does not have to monitor laws in a new state.)
      – Although my business clothing and commute expenses decreased, my a/c and heat costs increased and I spent more money on other household products like bathroom tissue.
      – Working from home in your PJs is nice until 10 am when you’re dirty and haven’t showered!
      – Find out what your distractions are, and handle them. I am irritated by piles of laundry, so I get that done the night before. I also had to teach my friends and family that I was working. I cannot work from the pool, or pick your kids up from school.
      – Your in office work environment matters. My company has a remote culture, and it makes it easy to work with everyone across the country. But, other cultures may not be accustomed to this and you’ll have to manage that.
      – I am in a leadership position managing people. Think about how you’ll measure performance when you cannot always see worker productivity. My employees and I have ways to do that, and it works for us.
      – It was hard when I first started. I didn’t know people in my company, and didn’t have the normal conversations you have around the office to build relationships. Every impression matters b/c there are so few of them. I over-prepare for meetings. I am extra friendly, and professional in meetings. If I have one off day, it would look like I was unprofessional to people who are meeting me for the first time. I won’t get many opportunities to correct that. WFH attracts introverts, but you have to pull out your social side to build relationships with people.
      Do you have any specific questions? I have been either full or part time WFH for 7 years. I am happy to answer them.

      2. Doug Judy*

        I think you hit on a lot of the things I was wondering about.

        Any suggestions on setting up the home office?

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Who else is in your house?

          I often wind up in the dining room when I am home alone (plus animals)–it’s nice for calls because I can reach the tea kettle with my headphones on. My teenage son can be home, and he will reliably be off in a separate room, gaming or doing homework. My spouse had a day off, and he kept doing the “ah here you are in the dining room, I can ask you stuff” thing.

          1. Doug Judy*

            My husband and our two boys, 12 and 4. We have a spare bedroom that is large and has a large desk in it and is upstairs, so its very easy to remove myself when they are around. I finished grad school a few years ago so they are used to me having to lock myself in there and figure it out themselves.

      3. Emmie*

        It sounds like you have your own rhythm with grad school. Think about the things that worked for you. For me, I have a separate room in my home for my office with windows and a view. It’s nice to see the sun, and activity outside. I need to buy an ergonomic desk. I need a different set up for 100% WFH vs. 40% WFH. I take conference calls / videos standing up from a bar height counter. Moving helps me focus, and avoid surfing the net. I have a lot of overhead lights, and that helps for dark days. It helps me to be really organized, and in a quiet part of the house too.

      4. Paquita*

        The hours is an important point. My sister works from home but she still has set 8-5 hours. It is similar to a call center ‘butt in seat’ job. She doesn’t have the flexibility that people thinks she does. Best thing is the no commute. Worst thing is she is not a ‘people person’. She is professional, but doesn’t enjoy it.

    12. It's the little things*

      I have worked from home for the past 2 years and as an extreme extrovert I was worried at first if I would be OK. I actually love it, however, I do have a number of hard and fast rules and boundaries I use to make it work. So here they are, hope it helps:
      1. I have a dedicated office – my personal computer/files are in a different area of my house, my office is treated as a magic door into my company. Once I leave the office, I leave it, I will check my phone as I would if I was office based, but I will not go back onto that office after I have decided to finish for the day – for any reason.
      2. I have coffee making facilities in my office – the only time I go to the kitchen is for lunch (I do work from my deck/porch sometimes but I get very distracted by the kitchen – emptying dishwasher, laundry etc.)
      3. I decorated my office in a really warm, welcoming way – in a way I couldn’t in a company office – my office as actually one of my favorite rooms in my house! I use fun and pretty office supplies etc. to make my work day more visually pleasant.
      4. I don’t have to video conference every day (maybe a couple of times a week) but I do set up regular ‘coffee chats’ with coworkers, where the purpose is to get on camera and just drink coffee/chat as if we were in the break room.
      5. I have a TV in my office, on really low – it actually helps me as I see movement and there is some sound (I came from an HR role so was used to a revolving door of people and voices) – it prevents that echo chamber feeling and I rarely even know whats on the TV, its the white noise and visual movement that matters.

      Hope this helps in some way if you move forward – its taken me time to lock down how I manage it, people who know me well are always surprised that I enjoy WFH as I’m very social, but this is how I make it enjoyable. I would be really sad if I had to go back into an office environment now (as would my dog :).

      1. Doug Judy*

        I like this. I am the same way about TV, I always have it on when I am home, even if I am doing other tasks. For whatever reason music isn’t the same for me, and I think it’s the movement aspect. I never thought of it that way.

    13. Lexi Kate*

      The bad: I feel like I use more of my pto now working from home than I ever did in the office, I could justify a longer lunch in the office but I really can’t at home. I also work more than I ever did at the office but still deal with the passive “oh did you watch such and such on tv, since your home I’m sure you are watching tv and doing household stuff”. Having a sick kid at home was fine when I worked in the office to stay and work from home, but with working from home all the time it’s seen as unacceptable. So on calls I have to go hide or keep kids and dogs quiet so no one knows they are there. On the home front it causes significant fighting with husband who doesn’t get that I am not home to run errands and have his dinner ready when he gets home. Collaboration is not the same and you do start falling through the cracks if you are not on top of being heard.

      The good: yoga pants are so so so much more comfortable than slacks or dresses, and I am saving so much money not wearing makeup it’s insane. It is easy to keep laundry done and to stay on my diet. I don’t hit traffic ever. I am not voluntold to do other people’s work anymore, and I have the ability to do my work the way I want withou interruptions or gossip.

      1. Doug Judy*

        I work in an field now that is business formal dress code, so fancy clothes, hair and make up every day. Sometimes I don’t mind being dressed up but having to every day is not fun. I would love not to have to spend money on those things as much as I do now.

        1. Lexi Kate*

          I’m not kidding on the makeup and clothing looking back at the expense there made me sick to think I was spending so much. I now throw away makeup because it goes bad, and my morning routine is like 20 minutes now ( shower, brush teeth, brush hair, moisturize, get dressed).

          1. WFH Mom*

            This is one of my favorite parts of WFH. I save so much money. No commute is a huge savings on gas and vehicle maintenance costs. I don’t buy makeup or clothes nearly as often. I just have a handful of client facing outfits for each season when I need to go onsite to meet a client. Plus, it’s just so relaxing to me to not have to be business-polished all day every day. I can listen to any music out loud in my office with my dog at my feet and no one will ever complain.

      2. jackers*

        “stay on my diet”

        This is the part I struggle with when I work from home (which is flexible for me and can do whenever I want – working from home right now). At the office, I can avoid the constant snacking/grazing because I don’t want to spend the money on it. At home, it’s right there 20 feet away in the kitchen “free”.

        It’s one of the few cons for me.

        1. Lexi Kate*

          I quit buying anything ready made so I have to prepare everything so I eat less. But in the beginning if there was cake or ready to bake cookies I could them down in an afternoon or so

        2. caryatis*

          Just don’t buy convenience foods. You need meals (although some people are fine with one or two a day); you don’t need snacks.

    14. pcake*

      Everyone is different, but for me, I love everything about working in my living room.

      I do have some friends who found they had trouble getting started or keeping going, and others who got lonely, but working at home suits me perfectly as I’m a motivated self-starter who isn’t social during work hours.

    15. Persimmons*

      I do partial WFH, I adore it, and I found that what works for me runs opposite the conventional wisdom.

      For example, a common tip suggests that you need to get up and change into work clothes to get into a professional mindset and prevent slacking. Some people even suggest getting into your car and going for coffee or a breakfast sandwich to simulate a commute. WTF is the point of doing all the annoying things that WFH helps you avoid? You’re shooting your perk in the foot. I get up, shlump downstairs in jammies, and turn on the laptop. Getting to do those little things that I can’t do as a cubicle dweller keeps me grateful for the option to WFH and keeps me mindful of my work.

      TL;DR: Give yourself some time to learn your own WFH style and figure out what works best for your personality and environment. It’s okay to change it up if you find it more efficient/effective to buck the system.

    16. seller of teapots*

      I have worked remote most of my career and I love it!!

      Some advice:
      *Take a shower and/or get dressed every morning.
      *Have a designated work space that is not your living room couch, kitchen table, or bed. Creating separate physical spaces helps, imo, create emotional boundaries, too.
      *Use IM or skype or phone to talk with your colleagues and try to build relationships beyond projects and deadlines.
      *Find a local coffee shop or library that you enjoy working from, and take yourself there regularly so you can get out of the house

    17. legalchef*

      Keep in mind that unless your kids are old enough to be largely self-sufficient (i.e. of an age where they won’t need constant attention if they are home sick or have the day off of school), you’d still really need back-up childcare for those times.

      When I WFH I like that instead of having chit-chat breaks I can take care of a load of laundry, or can run to the grocery store on “lunch.”

      1. Doug Judy*

        My oldest is almost 13 so for him it’s mostly I just need to be in the house in case he needs me. The other one is 4 and in daycare full time and absolutely would remain that way. If he was sick I’d have to supervise but from what I know about the position, there aren’t set hours so I could attend to him and then log back into work once my husband gets home. Which is a much better solution than now where I’d have to use a full day of PTO and be behind at work. Plus the eye rolls from childless coworkers when I suddenly have to leave for the day because daycare called are my biggest pet peeve, or worse the assumption that my kid really isn’t sick.

    18. Twenty Points for the Copier*

      I work from home full time (except when traveling or in meetings) and my husband works from home about 80% of the time. I love it but have also talked to a lot of people who really don’t like it.

      I think permanent WFH works best for two types of people – extreme introverts and motivated extroverts. Both of us are in the latter category. We make sure to have a lot of regular evening activities and plans on the weekend so that we’re seeing people other than each other (and our other neighbors with dogs) at least a couple days a week. In addition, my work involves a lot of talking on the phone and in person networking so I don’t end up feeling isolated. It was a little tough when we first moved here and I didn’t know very many people – the people I know who really hated FT WFH had also just moved and found it really isolating.

      I find productivity can be an issue, but no more or less so than in an office. I am self employed so I have a LOT of flexibility to work when I want so buying groceries, doing laundry, etc. in the middle of the day is fine as long as I am not off the grid for hours on end and get work done.

      I hate hate hate hate traffic so very much so I find that not having to commute has opened up a lot of time and is very freeing. I also find it easier to eat healthy when I can always throw something together. There is no temptation to eat lunch out because going out seems like too much effort. I am not a snack person so that’s not really an issue for me. We also save money on a dog walker (though we now have very spoiled dogs).

      Dressing like I am at work/wearing shoes/etc is not really a thing for me. I do have a dedicated work space and think it’s really helpful. Maybe not 100% neccesssary (my husband works from the bedroom), but gives me a work space which helps separate work time from personal time.

      Honestly, I’m not sure I could ever go back to a set schedule or face time expectation. I think that can be a risk for people who are FT WFH and not self employed (or possessing a super in demand hard to find skill) in terms of being reluctant to change jobs in the future even when it is a good move for other reasons. Though hopefully the world will move more towards realizing that (at least some portion of) people can be at least as productive from home as from the office.

      1. Red Reader*

        Spoiled dogs, yes – I adopted my younger dog about three months after I started working from home and she’s never known me not to be home 95% of the time, so now she gets a little anxious when I go on vacation.

    19. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I worked 100% from home, and I hated it.

      Specifically:

      – I never got into a good, comfortable relationship with my manager — which is something that matters a lot to me. I never learned how to read her because I never saw her face or had those casual, in-the-hallway opportunities to connect with her. So every time her number popped up on my phone it felt formal and serious and like I had to drop everything, rather than just another moment in a regular workday.

      – I had a hard time knowing what was enough work, which made me work too much. Like a lot of us, I’m in a job where the work is never done — I don’t have discrete tasks that I can complete and check off and know that I’ve accomplished what I needed to accomplish for the day/week/etc. So I value the rhythm of being in the office and then being done and going home (I still bring my computer home most nights, but I only take it out and do more work once I’m home if there’s something really pressing).

      One note: You should still plan on using PTO for random school days off or sick kids, if your kids are at an age when they need care or supervision. Working from home is still work.

      1. Doug Judy*

        The kid thing is more for my middle schooler right now. He gets done with school at 2:30 but if he has something after school it is done at 4/4:30 so I have to leave work early to go pick him up because my office is across town. I feel the perception that I’m “leaving early” every day, even though I work through lunch and will log in later. It would be great to just run down to the school quick and come home, round trip being 15 min.

      2. BF50*

        In my experience it’s pretty easy to get a bunch of work done with a sick 4 yr old. They lay around when they are sick so really I get almost as much work done, in the same amount of time, unless they are so sick that I need to clean up vomit or take them to the doctor. I leave the office door open or work at the dining room table, but they usually sleep, color, or watch tv all day.

        Snow days or no school days, however are impossible. On those days, I get up before the kids sneak into the office and my husband tells them I am at work so they don’t bug me. Then I get no bathroom breaks until lunch. :D Healthy 4 & 5 year old bounce and scream and can’t help interupting me. They also need supervision so they don’t do something dumb.

        1. Doug Judy*

          Snow days wouldn’t be too much of an issue. My husband has a home remodeling business and 90% of the time there is a snow day, he’s home anyway. There’s been many evil stares from me on snow days where there all in their pjs and I have to go to work.

    20. Someone Else*

      It sounds like you’re assuming working from home automatically means you can flex your schedule. If you haven’t, I would confirm that explicitly about the new role. I am 100% work from home and do still need to use PTO for appointments (or random school days off, unless your kid is over 13). In an emergency sure I could run out, and occasionally I am able to shift hours around an appointment, but it’s not a given and not something I’d do without approval first, and not something that should be frequent (and that would be true even of our staff who do work in the actual office).

    21. Melonhead*

      I am one voice saying there was very little downside to working remotely for 9-10 years. I loved it! Husband works from home 2 days/week, and those were great days.

      I now work at a place 3 mi. from home, with no telework, and I’m really enjoying that, too!

      1. Melonhead*

        PS: Neglected to mention that I was a freelancer with several clients, so I faced very little day-to-day scrutiny. If I did a great job, that’s all they cared about.

    22. Audra*

      I work from home 95% of the time and visit my home office once every few months. I’ve been working remote for two years now.

      Challenges:
      – Technology. Always waiting for a video call, or waiting for someone to figure out how to set up a video call.
      – Communication. Until I was given a direct manager, it was extremely hard to get in contact with either of my extremely busy bosses and would be reprimanded for not being a self-starter. I was in a very junior role at the time, not knowing what the heck some of this stuff was. So, I recommend that you are in a role where you are in charge of what you’re doing or have great communication with those you work with.
      – Distracting significant others/husbands/etc. Mine also works from home.
      – Traveling to the home office. This is probably just relevant to me, but my company always wants to see me and it’s not always for business purposes. I’m being brought down for busy work when I could be doing the work from my home office without paying expenses.
      – Missing out on office drama. Sounds petty but you’re the last to know who quit or got fired.

      Advantages:
      – Maybe contradictory to the last statement, but no in-office tension. And there is a lot.
      – Introvert’s dream. You can keep to yourself unless you need information on projects and deadlines. No chit-chat that keeps you unproductive.
      – Play your music loud and have your office set up how you like.
      – Work in PJs and no makeup. (Though I don’t recommend this too much because for me, it can be a demotivator if I am too sloppy.)
      – Work from coffeeshops, your bed, the couch.

    23. Public Health Nerd*

      Congrats on the new gig! I’m WFH at my job and I love it. A few tips:
      – You have to ask for help and mentoring when you’re stuck, which can feel awkward.
      – I do better working in a room that’s just for working and crafting. I walk in and I know I’m there to get things done.
      – It really helps if a critical mass of your group is also WFH – then there’s an existing structure for how people do things.
      – I’m switching to exercise out of the house – helps to get face time with other humans.
      – Gear to ask for: Headset with microphone, laptop, separate monitor, mouse and keyboard (so helpful for ergonomics)

    24. beachlover*

      I’ve been working remote for a year now.
      Pros:
      no commute – “extra” income savings on Gas + wear and tear on my car
      don’t have to get dressed
      can walk into kitchen and fix my breakfast or lunch.
      Being able to travel and still keep up on my work- I have worked from all over the country.

      Cons;
      isolation – even though I go into the office one a week (if I am not traveling, which is not too often). I do miss the human connection and camaraderie of being in an office environment.
      I do tend to work longer, not be cause I feel I am slacking, but because I lose track of time.
      lots of conference calls and since we are all spread across the USA, it can make my day a little hectic.

    25. WFH Mom*

      I’ve been 100% telecommuter for the last 6 months. Overall, I’m really happy with my job change, but a lot of it is the job I now have. Working from home has been more of a mixed bag than I expected, but working in an office is not an option for me in my current position. Here’s my experience, in your terms…
      The Good:
      – So much more time in the day without a commute! I have young kids and the work week required so much planning when I worked in office. I also don’t require a hard stop at the end of the day like OldInOfficeJob to commute and pick up kids. If I still had to finish up a project at OldInOfficeJob, I was logging in from home after putting the kids to bed. That habit is pretty draining if it’s frequent.
      – Flexible schedule. It’s important to get to know the company’s expectation on this. My boss cares about the work getting done, not the hours in which I do it. I do need availability during business hours to meet with coworkers/clients, but we are a global company so business hours varies a bit.
      – I never ever wear makeup anymore. It’s amazing! But I now have to evaluate the state of my appearance before leaving the house. Did I shower today? Will I be using a drive-thru or seeing people face to face?
      – I work out on weekdays! I have kids. My mornings and evenings do not belong to me. If I have a slow spot in my day, I can go out for an afternoon run if I feel like it.

      The Bad:
      – I’m surprised how lonely I am. I’m an introvert and this started out as a dream come true. But I realize now how I built relationships at work based on face to face interactions. It’s still possible, but it’s different now. It helps that most of my coworkers also work from home.
      – It’s harder for me to be self-aware of the quality of my work. Part of this is being new to the role and the learning curve, but I also don’t feed off the skills from my peers as easily. It has to be more deliberate, like asking questions and getting time set aside with a colleague.

      The Ugly:
      – I once had a client call when a full blown toddler tantrum went off outside my office door. My walls are paper thin. Boss took it well, but I can NEVER let that happen again. If you have kids, pets, spouse, or whatever in the home during work hours, figure out a system that ensures silence for conference calls.

    26. Anonama doo doo doo doo do*

      My husband works remotely and while he loves that he never has to fight the subway on an endless commute, he doesn’t have the interactions that are normal to an office. He is an introvert, so while this isn’t as much of a problem, he noticed that the holidays were a bit depressing; as there is no central office and people are scattered across the US, there are no holiday events that would normally bring everyone together. He doesn’t even like holiday parties, if that gives you an idea of how isolated he felt. It probably doesn’t help that I’m a high school art teacher who runs around school in reindeer antlers. Maybe the contrast is a bit much. Except for that, he overall prefers working remotely. Just prepare yourself for feeling disconnected at times.

    27. BetsCounts*

      Hi Doug, good luck!
      I am self employed and WFH most of the time.
      Good: I have a separate office space so it is easier to keep everything separated. I picked up a wardrobe from IKEA to store all the office supply/filing cabinet/printer stuff so my workspace isn’t all cluttered. I like being able to wear pajamas and no makeup
      Bad: It is very isolating. I visit a client site less than 1 day out of 10, so I joined a co-working space just to get more adult interaction. I miss having a superbowl square to fill out. :-( I also made an effort to be more active in my professional association, so I still have holiday/office type parties with other people in my industry.
      Ugly: I often struggle with keeping on task- it’s been difficult to take a few minutes to start a load of laundry / unload the dishwasher and then get back on point with my work responsibilities. It’s also been hard to train my kids to LEAVE ME ALONE when I am in my office with the door closed, but that may be more a ‘mom’ problem than a ‘WFH’ problem.

  3. TheWonderGinger*

    News on the Northern Front:

    I GOT A NEW JOB! After six months of searching, interviewing, and more than a few tears and bottles of wine I GOT A NEW JOB!
    Last Friday the 7th, I had an interview at notmayonnaise hospital for a position that I had interviewed for and been passed over in July. Some of you might recall from last Fridays open thread that I have been very frustrated about going through THREE rounds of interviews, and using over 20 hours of PTO, for several positions within notmayonnaise and continuing to come in second each time. In fact, the night before the interview I had told Steve Trevor that I was considering cancelling because I was so frustrated with the system and was ready to take a break. Well, he encouraged me to go because I had scheduled it in a time frame that didn’t use my PTO and was good practice. I went and I thought it had went well but honestly didn’t have high hopes after my past experiences.
    Well, Monday morning I got a call and they offered me the position! AND at a higher starting wage than advertised (which was still a considerable increase from currentjob)! We negotiated a start date for the second week of October (the last week of September I am out of town) and I was able to give notice to currentjob that morning! Everyone at current job is excited for me, including my supervisors. I did end up giving about three weeks’ notice, mostly because I will be out of town for a week in that notice period and I wanted to make my transition as easy as possible. Thanks to AAM and everyone for all the great advice that I was able to apply during this process!

    6. NotASnowflake*

      Sounds like you committed a lot of time and effort to this place. I’m glad it finally paid off for you! :]

        2. PhyllisB*

          Just curious, why would the username “snowflake” be a reason to send a comment to moderation? I understand you wouldn’t want anyone calling any of the commentors a “special snowflake” or any variation, but when you are referring to yourself?

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            The filter doesn’t know you’re referring to yourself because it doesn’t distinguish between a user name or the comment body. There’s no way to say “moderate it if it’s here but not here.” It just sees the word itself and that triggers the filter. It’s because the vast majority of the time that word gets used, it’s in a rude way.

  4. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

    We recruited a new admin about 6 months ago, and they’re still asking pretty basic questions about tasks when they are assigned to them. We have lots of process sheets for reference but even when they check them they still ask for help. Any suggestions on scripts or redirects to say to them in the moment when they’re asking something that they should really know by now?
    While not directly their line manager, I deputise for their line manager when they are away.

    1. Doug Judy*

      I’d take a look at these process sheets if you haven’t in a while. I’ve been in positions where, yes there are process sheets but the either: 1. Are horribly written (too much jargon/acronyms) 2. Out of date and no longer make sense. 3. Are missing some key details.

      If those look good, maybe she needs some more hands or interactive training. If you are always directing her to read an SOP, she might not learn well that way.

      1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

        We do try to keep up to date with our process sheets, but I might ask if he feels they could reworded/improved. Our concern is that we’ve given training on a lot of it (and extra training on bits he’s gotten wrong), and it still doesn’t seem to be sinking in.

        We aren’t sure if there is a deeper issue or if they’re being lazy and not trying to work it out themselves!

        1. Bea*

          I have had many issues with people who lack confidence along with developed critical thinking skills.

          I would make sure you’re encouraging them to look for the answer and to follow their instincts. But only of errors aren’t going to cause drastic issues of course. I’ve had to drill into a few folks trying first is best. If they’re then clarifying they understand, my patience is a lot thicker. “These are completed…I file then in The Room, right?” instead of “I’m done. What do I do with them now?”

          If they’re asking how to proceed, you can always try digging in with a “think back to when you did this last week…” and coaxing them to answer. It’s obnoxious in ways but still shows them they need to try harder.

        2. NotASnowflake*

          Can you point out to him that you’ve trained on or answered this specific question x times, and ask him to tell you what he did last time? Sometimes people default to asking questions either because they aren’t confident in themselves or because it’s easier. So this might make him realize he *does* know what to do or that he’s asking things he shouldn’t be asking

          You could tell him you can’t keep taking time to explain basic x thing to him and he needs to write down what to do for future reference.

        3. Trixie*

          In some situations, this is a golden opportunity to review/update process notes in live time. Each new employee can help review and highlight discrepancies. Given shared drives and document access these days, I am amazed how often there are simply no process sheets or guidelines at all.

      2. SWOinRecovery*

        Where have you looked (for the answer) so far? As the initial response to every time they ask a question (with some exceptions).
        This gives them the opportunity to point out any confusion in the process sheet organization, but mostly trains them to troubleshoot independently before asking for help. And if the question is for something that would clearly not be in a process sheet, the answer can be google or other public means.

        You could also try to give them a sense of ownership/teamwork in the process sheets, which may motivate them to use and fully understand them more. You could say something like, “As the newest admin, you have the latest experience with learning these tasks from the sheet. Please add any language to the instructions that you think would help out our next new team member or someone relearning the process after a software update.” Asking them to review & edit the sheets might make the processes stick more.

      3. Mephyle*

        Please don’t be like my biochem professor, who used to answer all questions with, “It’s all in the book.” If we understood the textbook, sir, we wouldn’t be asking you.
        I suggest it would be worth scheduling a bit of time to do a detailed trace of what happens when they check the process and then still ask for help. I don’t see how the problem can be fixed without first diagnosing how much of the problem lies in NewAdmin, and how much in the process sheets. Simple scripts or redirects won’t help much if, say, the process sheets are deficient, or NewAdmin has a reading comprehension problem.

    2. Kes*

      “Have you checked the sheet?”
      And if you do have to show them, “It should say how to do that here” (and show them on the sheet) “Is anything in particular unclear?”
      That can be really annoying to have to deal with though.

    3. Bea*

      Have you been answering her questions? I would direct get to the process docs. “On there’s a procedure doc on the share drive in the BLAH BLAH folder.”

      If you’re answering AND mentioning it, she’s given a choice to just ask. Then if she responds the docs don’t make sense, that’s another kettle of fish.

    4. Anna Canuck*

      First question every time: “What do you think you should do?”
      They probably know after 6 months, but lack confidence. It’s hard to say why, but it’s probably a crappy previous job. Rehabbing a rescue employee can take longer than you think it should, if their confidence has been shredded by outside forces.

    5. Milksnake*

      It took me a full year to get a grasp of everything at my admin position. Somethings I could complete but I didn’t understand their purpose so I asked a lot of questions about the details. Once I reached that point in the annual cycle where it was useful everything clicked! But it took a full year to understand how things were connected. Or to grasp my coworker’s preferences and how long I should expect something to take, or hold off before giving it to them.

      Other aspects of my job were tiny and only happened once a month, so there would be huge gaps between the last time I had done this one thing and I needed a reminder.

      And all of our process sheets had been written by someone who knew the office so there was a list of locations, and the process sheet would reference that list, and it was much faster to just ask “Where can I find X account’s files?”

      So I guess it’s not really advice, just insight. Especially if the person who formerly held their position wasn’t there to train them directly.

      1. Doug Judy*

        Once I had a job where there was an SOP for everything but there were so many, and they weren’t all saved in one spot, or the file name was vague that sifting through all of that would take up so much time that I gave up and just asked.

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      I had this issue with some coworkers I was responsible for training. After hand holding them through a particular task multiple times, I asked them to go back to their desk, use the process document, and come get me if they still had any questions. Unfortunately that turned out poorly with a very sensitive process, where they did NOT use the process document, decided to try by themselves, messed it up and we all stayed until midnight fixing it. So, my lesson learned is to go back to their desk with them, MAKE them pull up the process document, and have them walk through it while you watch. Then you are there to answer their questions or prevent them from making a mistake (if it’s a sensitive process like my unfortunate incident was). THEN, if they come back again, you can ask them if they remember doing it using the process document the previous time, ask if they feel comfortable trying that again, and reassure them that if they run into an issue you would rather have them come ask you for help than try to do it themselves and make a mistake.

      The downside is that sometimes, people just don’t learn. That critical process? 2 years that same person had made that mistake 3 times in total. They were frankly just lazy and sloppy. That may not be the case for who you’re working with, but that is an unfortunate possibility.

    7. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      Are they allowed to make changes to the process sheets? When I started this job, one of my more involved tasks had a binder full of how-to stuff but they just didn’t work for me. I had to make my own notes that actually looked less detailed but worked better for me.

      Also, you may want to double check the process sheets. I use a program that makes small updates all the time. The changes were so gradual that it was hard to realize how much had changed until I was updating the instructions a few weeks ago and realized it was almost to the point of needing completely redone.

    8. valentine*

      Have them physically check off each completed item. If there’s a way to prove each step is done, say, with screenshots, they can do that as well, prior to asking. He may just continue expecting y’all to be his reminder system.

    9. Hi there!*

      Have you asked about how they learn and operate? Sometimes what works for you in how instructions, context, and manuals are organized and arranged do not work for others. Or creates information overload.

      I have some coworkers who see a mega manual or folder with tons of SOP files and they feel defeated in trying to remember what to look where. To make it seems more manageable (which is really more of reframing of the tools available), we created script FAQs.

  5. Panda*

    My company is going through a “transformation” which means layoffs. Whole departments have been gutted or completely eliminated. I work in legal and my director says we are already lean and we should be fine. He also said that they could tell our VP (the general counsel) that they have to get rid of everyone below him. The bottom line is that the company is not very stable. Given this, I have been thinking about applying for other jobs even though I’ve only been in this job since the end of April, love it, and since it’s a step up in terms of skills, I may not have the experience I need to make the same money. While the “transformation” has not reached my division, it could in the next year or two or never come at all. We just don’t know and the company is not very transparent. We don’t know how they’re deciding who is laid off or what departments to cut.

    Should I ride it out or start looking now? If I start looking how do I explain my short term in this job? Do I mention in my cover letter that although I am very happy in my position, the layoffs as the reason I’m searching?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It can’t hurt to start looking and I think most interviewers will understand restructuring/layoffs as a reason to look so soon.

    2. irene adler*

      Start looking now. That will give you a leg up and also help inform you of the market out there.
      I wouldn’t put anything about why you are looking for a job in the cover letter. Instead, focus on how you meet the job description and why you are interested in the advertised position. Leave the ‘why are you leaving your current position’ discussion for the interview. Some might not even bring it up, although it is a common question.

    3. The Original K.*

      In your shoes I would probably start putting out some feelers and if/when I got interviews, explain that while I wasn’t expecting to make a transition so soon after starting a new job, particularly a job I enjoyed, the threat of layoffs has me exploring other options.

    4. Bend & Snap*

      Look. My company got acquired in a very large merger and I lived under the layoff ax for 2 years till I got fed up and got another job. It’s horrible.

      Also we had the “lean” justification too and then a bunch of my coworkers got laid off.

      My best advice is use what you’ve seen with your own eyes and use it as motivation to find something different.

      1. Argh!*

        I experienced the layoff ax for over a year. To make things worse, my boss played head games with us knowing that everyone would try to suck up to her.

        I did not suck up to her.

        I got laid off.

    5. neverjaunty*

      If you get laid off, you will be in the same situation of trying to find a job with a recent short stint, only you’ll also be unemployed.

    6. Anna Canuck*

      Definitely be ready. It’s stressful to go through a “transformation” even if you make it through. It’s hard to get work done when everyone is worried about their job. Start looking, but be choosy.

    7. Bea*

      Casually look and be choosy. If you see something great you like, yes, apply and let them know of the restructure happening. There isnt any issues attached to someone seeking job stability.

    8. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Start looking. You don’t need to actually make the jump if you don’t want to, but if you do get laid off, you’ll be glad you’ve started.

    9. Frankie*

      One thing to keep in mind is that even if you stick it out, after layoffs some companies really end up struggling with morale. So it can make sense to stay with your particular job if layoffs never come calling to your department, but it can impact the org as a whole in a way that makes your job worse.

      Could be tough if you interview and get an offer without layoffs hanging over your head, but something to keep in mind. The job you love is not necessarily that job anymore.

    10. Quackeen*

      I was in a similar position about 6 months ago, and did eventually end up getting laid off. I would start putting out feelers, with the understanding that you can start out choosy if nothing’s changing at your current job. I tried to start looking early because I had about 20 coworkers who were in the same geographical area and I knew we’d all be competing for the same jobs.

    11. Argh!*

      Been there. Tried to ride it out. I thought I’d be one of the survivors when the layoffs came, but I was actually transferred to a horrible situation.

      Try to find out how severence is being handled. I had the good fortune to have a steady income while I was unemployed. This also gave me time to deal with the emotional fall-out. Even though I was laid off, it feels like being fired.

      Leaving on your own terms is definitely preferable!

    12. Cindy Featherbottom*

      It doesn’t hurt to look so I’d get a jump on it now. A friend of mine had this happen to him a few years back, but he chose to ride it out and see what happened. He ended up getting laid off and wasn’t nearly as prepared as he could have and frankly should have been. While he ended up with a job again not long after, he probably could have gotten something he liked more if he wasn’t in such a crummy spot. And +10000 to what ..Kat.. said. Save. Money. NOW! If you are caught a little off guard by a lay off, at least you will have some kind of cushion to get you through for a while.

    13. valentine*

      Maybe Wakeen gave her a different reason and she was using you to call him out. If he was avoiding the work, by doing it and saying he was behind, you covered for him, which will keep backfiring on you. Why not leave Wakeen’s work to him/his division and write with the assumption your audience is wider than your addressee?

    14. BetsCounts*

      Panda, start looking now!!! I think mentioning the layoffs on the cover letter is a reasonable plan. I know if I got a resume now from someone who just started in April my eyebrows would raise pretty high.

  6. Phoenix Programmer*

    Are my thoughts of the situation realistic or do others have a more generous interpretation?

    This week was rough. A manager who I have bent over backwards to help on at least 8 occasions over the past 3 weeks caused drama for me and I can not see any benefit to her other than, well stirring the pot!

    I am in TS and have helped her set up a program even though I am not on that team. I have told her this and she has been very appreciative. Well last week I did not have time to hop on her request. The person who is supposed to do it just didn’t and let it sit two weeks. Typical for that team sadly. Well I got to it yesterday and sent an email that said “I covered this issue for you. Usually Wakeen covers this but he is running a bit behind.”

    I suddenly get angry email from Wakeen that if I have a problem with his work I should directly tell him.

    Confused I looked at his forwarded email and it turns out the manager had forwarded my email straight to Wakeen!

    I am floored. Why would a manager I have gone above and beyond for the past couple of months cause trouble like that? There is literally no benefit to her at all! It’s not like she forwarded my message along with a line – I need you to better get on my tickets so Phoenix doesn’t have to cover your work or anything tangeible. She literally just forwarded my email with no text on her email at all. It feels like she did it solely to cause drama. Wakeen and I are on the same level and she is a manager on the same level as our managers.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Your email to her seems a bit out of line IMO.

      Why did you need to say something about Wakeen being behind? It kind of sounds like you were calling him out.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        Part if it is context. She had actually been verbally ragging on him the past several weeks. I was just going for an explanation for the ticket sitting so long. Also I wanted to reiterate that it’s not my job. It’s Wakeens.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I think your wording was a big part of the problem. “Wakeen is running behind” makes it sound like Wakeen can’t manage his work, and if she already has a problem with him, this wording just adds fuel to the fire. Was he “behind” because he’s lazy or because he’s overworked? If it’s the former, then ok (not great, but I get it), but if it’s because the team is swamped, or you wanted to help out, or they asked you to take on this one project, then you would have been better off saying, “Wakeen has been swamped and I stepped in this time. For future requests, please contact him directly.”

          If I were Wakeen and I found out what you’d said, I’d be put off too. I once overheard a salesperson blaming an information delay on my team when that wasn’t the case at all– he knew it, he just wanted to placate his client. Well, his wording may have placated the client, but it made us sound like we were lazy or incompetent, and it had a big effect on my relationship with that salesperson.

          1. Phoenix Programmer*

            Wakeen had literally just finished the day before trying to dump his work on me. He doesn’t like work related to this program. It’s been that way for years.

            1. AvonLady Barksdale*

              Then you have a Wakeen problem, but you also expressed your displeasure with him and now he knows. So now you have to deal with the consequences of that. Sounds like it’s time to use this opportunity to discuss your issues either with Wakeen or with your own manager.

              1. Phoenix Programmer*

                Way ahead of you. My first response was to apologize in an email and ask to speak. I asked when a good time to catch up would be.

                He if ignored that email and tried to avoid it. I gave him a few days and tracked down his number. I spoke with him today and feel we are in a good spot.

      2. Youth*

        I wonder if Phoenix Programmer is trying to prevent the manager from coming back with more requests for this kind of work when she should be taking the requests to Wakeen.

        Could be wrong, but it sounds like Phoenix Programmer voluntarily picked up something Wakeen was supposed to do and doesn’t want to reinforce the idea that they will continue to do his work when they have their own stuff to take care of.

      3. Teapot librarian*

        I don’t think that “he’s running a bit behind” is calling him out. Now, “he’s been sitting on his tush for two weeks so I did this instead of him” would be calling him out.

        1. CastIrony*

          I agree, Teapot librarian. I read “he’s running a bit behind” as Wakeen being swamped (and needs help). Then again, I work in a cafeteria, where being behind is caused by something unexpected or that something is taking longer than anticipated. :\

    2. JokeyJules*

      all you can do is just keep it extremely professional and factual.
      It seems like this person loves drama and will do whatever they can to start more drama. They suck. I’ve worked with people like that before. You’ll become less of a target by staying extremely neutral and professional.

      It isn’t personal.

    3. Reba*

      Not knowing email norms in your company, I see the move on the manager’s part as being like “Wakeen, I see you” and Wakeen as the drama llama here. But probably it would have been better for her to send such a comment to Wakeen’s manager? Or something?

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        Hmm. If I get an email from someone with no text and it is just a forward from someone else with text about me in it I would never read that as the manager saying – I see and agree with this person. I usually read those as FYI thought you should know what this other person said.

        1. LCL*

          In my workplace (not just in my mind) Reba’s interpretation would be the correct one. If someone wanted to pass on an FYI it would never be put in writing, they would tell you.

    4. Nita*

      Maybe she forwarded it to Wakeen so he knows the work is done – that sounds like a reasonable thing to do, and “running a bit behind” isn’t much of a criticism! If Wakeen took it as a criticism, that’s his problem.

      But. Since you did help her last time, was Wakeen aware he needs to do it this time? When you step in to do something hat’s normally not your job, there’s always the risk of crossed wires and people assuming someone’s on it when no one really is!

      1. Super dee duper anon*

        This was my initial read as well. The they forwarded the email to let Wakeen it was taken care of.

        I’d typically say that is kinda common sense – you let the person who’s supposed to do something know if they don’t have to do it anymore.

        However I’d say the lack of context (and not removing your comment) might have been some passive agressive directed at Wakeen and this writer just got caught up in the crossfire.

        I’d try not to take the forwarding of the email as a deliberate attempt to stir shit up, but I definitely would keep in mind that anything written to that manager might not be handled discretely, so just be extra careful.

      2. Lehigh*

        Yeah, I agree with this. I’d probably reply with, “Wakeen, you ARE running a bit behind. I don’t have a problem with that or a problem with you, or I wouldn’t be helping with your work.”

    5. Utoh!*

      Typical damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I have started caring less and less so it does not affect me as much as it used to. Hopefully you can just let Wakeen know that you were asked to cover this task by said manager directly. Who is to say though that this was a dig on Wakeen and not you?

    6. Q without U*

      Manager could have forwarded it so that Wakeen would know that it’s been taken care of and by who, and that it was no longer on his plate. Manager might not have been thinking about the greater implications, but I can see this as having been done without intending to cause drama.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        Nah. She knows I let him know. That’s how it has worked for the past 2 months of dealing with these stalled tickets on her program.

    7. Aurélia*

      Some people LOVE doing that. Manager likely knew the answer and just wanted you to do it for them vs. dealing with Wakeen. If I were in your shoes I would respond to Wakeen and mention that you were attempting to clarify roles and responsibilities, and it seemed like a pretty neutral statement that he was running behind as this action has been in the inbox (or wherever) for 2+weeks when the typical turnaround time being 3 business days (or whatever). Maybe ask him how he’f like you to address that going forward. I like to add that you’ve flagged his comment for future reference and will address things with him before going to manager in the future.
      If manager wants you to do Wakeen’s work for him in the future, how would you feel about responding with something like, “Please address this with Wakeen directly.” and not engage?

    9. SWOinRecovery*

      If you haven’t already, make sure you loop in your manager here. Just in case there are any issues from Wakeen or Wakeen’s manager in the future. Also, it’ll be good for them to know that you were helping out another team for a bit if they wanted to account for your workload (or if you want to play the “team player” card come evaluation time).

    10. Bea*

      Wakeen is the jerkbag here. The manager is no saint but there’s no need for him to snap back at you.

      I would have been a jerkbag and then just forwarded his tirade to his manager all “he’s mad. Deal with your man child please.”

      1. Troutwaxer*

        I’m of two minds on this. Wakeen does sound like a bit of a jerk, but it’s also important to always phrase emails in such a fashion that you do not throw someone under the bus, and sometimes this means verbally overcompensating. Instead of saying “Wakeen is behind” you say “We’re generally understaffed and we’ve both been buried in work, so Wakeen may not have gotten to your request yet, but he is your point of contact for this issue.”

        So you may or may not owe Wakeen an apology, if for nothing else than not phrasing the letter so it couldn’t be misinterpreted.

        1. Phoenix Programmer*

          I apologized to Wakeen immediately. I was in a hurry when I wrote the email.

          But I will say that that manager who forwarded this email to Wakeen has been verbally ragging on him and his team the entire time I have been helping with the program. Calling them useless, incompetent, etc. I have not participated. I guess I am feeling a bit baited and that all my extra help/work to Wakeen is being ignored.

          I guess it is also relevant that Wakeen was already mad at me. He had tried to get me to take on some of his work and I firmly but professionally put my foot down.

          1. LKW*

            In the future, you have to point to other influences. Like “Wakeen is behind because of higher priority projects that left unsolved would cause issue #1, issue #2, issue #3.” Basically – clarify that although this is important to StupidManager, she works for a company with other priorities.

            Then you’re acknowledging that this is behind but not the direct fault of Wakeen.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Better yet, don’t name names. “I did X because it hasn’t been done yet. Now it is done.”

          But basically, OP, she is letting you do her boss work for her. Wakeen stood up for himself. I am not sure what the boss expected would happen here. It only makes sense that a person would stand up for themselves to some degree even if they are wrong.

          I’d hit reply to all and say, “I did not intend to create a problem here. Going forward I will wait until Boss directly assigns Xs to me, rather than taking on myself.”

      1. Lissa*

        I agree! I’m also kinda surprised the general consensus was that Phoenix was wrong to send the email – “running a bit behind” isn’t anything other than factual and seems pretty neutral to me? It wasn’t like it was a tirade about Wakeen’s terrible haircut or something, it seemed relevant.

    12. Marthooh*

      Maybe she’s a passive-aggressive mommy-style manager: “Why can’t you be more like that nice Phoenix Programmer, always ready to help, making sure things get done ON TIME, never putting things off like SOME PEOPLE do! I hope you’re very grateful to Phoenix Programmer, Wakeen!”

      1. Indie*

        I thought something similar; rather than take ownership of a complaint and say “I think you’re slacking, Wakeen” she’s added ‘and Phoenix Programmer agrees with me!’ for group-pressure effect.

        Worse if she’s not even made a complaint but passive aggressively let someone else’s email do it for her.

        Bad co-worker. No more favours for you!

  7. Anonymous404*

    Hi Everyone! I have a quick question, I applied to a job 4 months ago and made it to the first round of interviews then was rejected. The job was posted again this morning. Is it weird to re-apply?

    1. ContentWrangler*

      I wouldn’t reapply. It was only four months ago – you won’t have changed as a candidate and it seems clear that they decided you weren’t the right fit.

      2. Justme, The OG*

        I disagree. If someone were a better fit then they are now obviously out of the running. I would definitely apply again.

        1. Trixie*

          Eh, even if someone else is out of the running, hiring manager would move to next strongest candidate. Chances they want a fresh applicant pool. Manager still has application materials from previous applicants and if they were interested, they would have contacted someone previously declined.

          1. Smarty Boots*

            Let them decide that they want a fresh pool. Also, you don’t know that it’s the same hiring manager. And, it may not be a place that goes back into the existing pool, or they may not be allowed to (at the state U I work at, there’s a time limit for going back).

            I don’t see any downside to applying. If they don’t want you, you won’t hear back. I doubt anyone is going to say, OMG, what a fool, why is she applying again?! And you might be invited back.

        2. Lily in NYC*

          I would agree except that LW didn’t make it past the first round of interviews last time, which means they are probably looking for a different skill set/job background/level of experience.

      3. Zennish*

        I’m in the middle. If you’ve thought of things you really didn’t bring out in your previous interview that makes you a stronger candidate, or they’ve changed the job description in a way that might make you a better fit, it could be worth a go.

    2. irene adler*

      Why not?
      This way they know you are still interested in the position. Maybe they sat back, and wondered if you were interested but felt that they could not reach out for fear you’ve moved on.
      Applying shows them you are still interested.

    4. OtterB*

      I don’t think you have anything to lose by applying. It’s not like you’re flooding them with resumes. You don’t know why they went with another candidate before.

    5. Deus Cee*

      I wouldn’t re-apply with exactly the same resume/cover letter as last time. I’d try and see where I can say anything more about what I might have achieved in the last 4 months to boost the application if possible – I’m assuming you didn’t get feedback from the interview you were rejected from, but if had, and you’d addressed that in the meantime then it would definitely be worth re-applying.

      1. BetsCounts*

        yes Deus Cee makes an excellent point. Obviously your resume/cover letter got you a call 4 months ago, but document on there what else you’ve done with your time. Also, you probably have contact information from whoever interviewed you? You could drop them a brief note and let them know you saw the position open and are still enthusiastic about the opportunity?

    6. Bea*

      Did they give a reason? It could be they went with someone else who was “stronger” fit. Then they fell through.

      I’m not going to call my #2 or #3 choice 4 months later asking them if they still want the job. But if they reapplied I would be thrilled they’re an option.

      Reapply. But do not do any weird follow up stuff. Do not call them and ask to be considered etc. But send your resume and mention in your cover letter you would like to be reconsidered. Worse case, you don’t hear back. You shouldn’t burn them or upset them by trying UNLESS you were told you didn’t meet their requirements and therefore will not be considered.

      You are usually rejected after an interview because someone else just had a leg up.

    7. TheWonderGinger*

      DO IT!

      Serisously! That’s what happened to me this summer, I reapplied when it reposted and got it this time. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    8. irene adler*

      RE: the rejection
      Were you given an actual communication that indicated they were not continuing the hiring process with you?
      Or are you equating a rejection with their not continuing to contact you after the interview? This is not clear.

      It could be they stopped the hiring process after interviewing candidates- and are now picking it up again.

      1. Anonymous404*

        They sent me an email saying we will not be moving forward with your application at this time. Very generic

    9. Alice*

      I think you should reapply, with a different cover letter, one that references your first application somehow. (I know that I’d like to work at your llama grooming studio because I met the hoof clipping team when I interviewed for the left back leg holder position in May.)
      Just because you weren’t the candidate that best matched their needs last time around doesn’t mean you aren’t this time.
      But if “first round of interviews” means a phone screen, in that case I might just move on.
      Good luck.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I don’t think it hurts to reapply, but I would update your materials like this. I frequently see jobs reposted that I was either not considered for at all, or rejected after the initial phone screen. I have only reapplied to a few that I still felt I was a really good fit and tried to improve my cover letter to highlight that, and only once heard anything back because they had missed my application the first time (made it to the final stage but no offer).

        The upshot is, it didn’t take much time/effort for me and I’d rather be sure, but I’d only do it for a job I really wanted and think I’d be excellent at.

      2. Jean (just Jean)*

        Reading waaay late but I wanted to compliment you on your wonderful buildout of the llama grooming metaphor! Hoof clipping team? Left back leg holder? Brilliant!

    10. Could be Anyone*

      Do you know why you were rejected the first time? That would influence my answer.

      I would think if they were re-posting so soon (whether the original hire didn’t work out or they are creating a new position) they would take it upon themselves to reach out to second or third choices from the previous applicant pool – especially if it’s so recent.

      1. TheWonderGinger*

        I really think it depends on the organization if they will reach out again. I know government agencies often will use previous interview results to fill future positions for a designated period of time, but I got my newjob because I reapplied (after being rejected for a “stronger canidate”) when they reposted the listing after 2 months.

    11. AnonyMouse*

      As others said, if you’re going to reapply it would probably be a good idea to update/change your cover letter. I’m of the mindset that you never know what the applicant pool looks like. You may not have been the strongest candidate last time, but in a new pool you might be. I also don’t see why it’s a big deal for you to reapply. If they don’t want to interview you, they won’t contact you. It seems pretty harmless to me.

  8. Detective Amy Santiago*

    UK Folks – any major differences between the norms Alison shares re: CVs/resumes and what you’ve found is true across the pond?

    A friend asked me to review hers and I want to make sure I’m considering cultural differences.

    1. Niki*

      Nope, Alison’s suggestions would work fine here. Only key difference I can think of is that in a lot of areas the distance recruiters would see as reasonably commutable is probably smaller than in the US, so if she’s relocating she might want to be quite specific about the area she intends to be based in.

    2. Ruth (UK)*

      I have typically been quite successful with my written applications (my most recent serious job search was about a year ago and I applied to 5 jobs, resulting in 4 interviews, and then 1 job (ie. my current job). In feedback, interviewers have often mentioned they felt my written application (CV/cover letter) was very strong. For reference, I work in admin at a university, and previously did admin for the national health service. It might be different in other job types.

      Generally, I tend to agree with Alison’s advice when it comes to CVs/resumes and I would typically follow her advice. One of the differences is one that I actually saw on a comment thread here the other day when reading old posts (I was using the ‘surprise me’ button and reading random old posts). Basically, the 1-page rule isn’t such a thing here, I think. Alison (and many American commenters) tend to say younger/newer-to-the-workforce people need to stick strictly to 1 page for their resume. I think the UK CV tends to be longer than the American resume but shorter than what Americans call CVs. Education info including GSCE and A level results (ie. a list of all the subjects you did and the grade for each) are often expected to be presented on it and that can take some space.

      Therefore I would say the length rule in the UK would be strictly not over 2 pages, rather than strictly not over 1.

      My CV has usually been 2 pages.

      I put my work info / history at the top, and my education lower down, but I used to do it the other way round until fairly recently (I graduated from uni 6 years ago). I think if you’re a uni graduate, you want that at the top if your work history so far is only retail/temp/etc but you want your work first once it’s a more relevant job to what you’re applying for.

      A lot of people include some sort of statement of several lines at the top about themselves but I have never done this, as I feel it’s unnecessary if you’re also providing a cover letter (which I always am).

      I also don’t think thank-you letters/emails are such a thing here (I’ve never sent one and don’t know anyone who has). Though I don’t think it would be especially odd to do so.

      Nothing else I can think of. I’m curious what others think. It might vary by job type and other things.

      1. Niki*

        See, I do include the statement at the start of the CV – you’re right that it duplicates the cover letter but in my experience a lot of recruiters don’t bother reading cover letters, or at least scan the CV first to see whether it’s at all relevant and only bother with the cover letter after that.

        I don’t think it’s a necessity but if there’s a piece of information you think it’s important somebody knows that isn’t instantly obvious from your CV itself then a summary can be a good way to highlight it – relocation is probably the best example. A couple of years ago I moved from Scotland back to England and included a summary that said I was relocating to X city so that I wouldn’t be filtered out based on my address.

        1. Niki*

          Oh, and I completely agree with you on thank you notes. I’ve worked in recruitment for various companies over the last ten years and I think I’ve received maybe ten from the hundreds of people I’ve interviewed?

          1. SarahKay*

            Yes, thirded on the thank you notes not being a thing in the UK.
            When I started reading AAM I was really taken aback, and rather worried, by talk of thank you notes. I’d never written one for an interview in my life. Had I been missing an important step?!? Had I left a chain of interviewers all thinking I was rude?!? I was immensely glad to discover a couple of months later that in fact, they’re just not a thing over here.

        2. Ruth (UK)*

          I think it makes sense for you to include the statement for that reason (drawing attention to your relocation). I don’t necessarily think that one shouldn’t include such a statement either, and as it seems to be at least as common to do so as to not, I think it perhaps boils down to personal preference and what your applications materials end up looking like as a whole.

      2. Tau*

        +1 to all of this. I only worked in the UK for one job, but I remember I left off my high school results and got a lot of requests for them. (On the one hand, it was my first job out of uni… on the other, I had a PhD. Really, employers?)

        1. Ruth (UK)*

          Yes I’m not sure why but employers do tent to want school results from GCSE (which are taken in years 10 and 11 when you’re 14-16). It’s very common for education requirements for admin jobs, for example to say something like “including c or above in GCSE English and maths, or equivalent” even for jobs where most people applying would have a degree.

      3. Indie*

        I agree with you about the longer CV, (I’ve always heard keep it to two pages) but I don’t really agree with putting on your high school results (unless that was your most recent education).
        I do it nowadays, because I’m in teaching, where certain GCSE scores for certain subjects are a requirement) When I was in journalism or admin or PR it would have been seen as out of touch.

        1. Ruth (UK)*

          I did wonder if it varies a bit but the university I work at specifically asks for them to be included in the application for admin positions (it’s a web form and there’s a specific section for highschool (gsce) grades.

          1. Indie*

            Oh yeah, universities absolutely want that stuff. No idea why. The education sector is weird about wanting your whole educational background. I think that’s why they typically provide application forms specifying that they want it. Because they get a lot of non teaching staff not including it in their CV.
            During teacher training I was specifically told they’d want it (as well as hard copies of my certificates!) But I’ve never figured out why because I would never have got on my teacher training course without the requisite GCSEs and ALevels. So that latter qualification should suffice. Some of it is safeguarding and avoiding picking up jailbird predators: ‘what have you been doing since turning 16 and where is the evidence?’ The application will ask for an entire chronology if so.

    3. SarahKay*

      Don’t put your age / date of birth on it.
      Which Alison probably says anyway, but in the UK it’s illegal to discriminate on any grounds of age (too old, too young, too middle-aged – all illegal to discriminate for/against) and I know my HR leader strongly prefers CVs without any age information being clearly given because it reduces any likelihood of immediate unconscious (or conscious!) discrimination.
      Now, obviously, there are going to be all sorts of clues to age anyway – if someone has 20 years of experience, it’s a good guess that they’re not super-young – but at that point you’re reading the CV and hopefully getting a bigger picture of the candidate than just their age.

      1. Jennifer Thneed*

        > Don’t put your age / date of birth on it.

        I’m pretty sure that nobody does that in the US? Just to avoid this same issue. I’ve never seen it, anyway.

    4. Jemima Bond*

      I understand that’s it’s not done in the USA but here it is fine to put at the end of the CV a few words about your outside interests (that wording is better than hobbies imho). But choose ones that make you look good and like a fine upstanding pillar of society. So not “socialising”. Also not reading or swimming; everyone puts that. Probably not more than three things I’d say.

      For example:

      Outside Interests:
      Triathlon
      Girl Guide Unit Helper
      Qualified Platypus Trainer

      Or

      Outside Interests:
      I am a keen member of my local history society and in my spare time I also walk alpacas at my local animal rescue and enjoy marshalling light hovercraft races.

    5. Erika22*

      I asked something similar in the open thread a couple months ago and got some really helpful tips! (I’d post the link to the comment but alas, I’m at work still). I feel like making the CV is the easy part as an American looking for a job here – for me the real learning curve was realizing so many companies didn’t want cover letters per se, but like a mini essay about how you match the person specification. It went against most of my cover letter instincts but in the end is what got me interviews. But YMMV on that.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        I would be interested in that link if you could post it – or some further information on this “mini essay” aspect. Im American in the UK and on my second corporate job here, but I REALLY need to move on to something new and I know I have struggled in the past with the issue of no place to upload a cover letter but I need to draw parallels between what they are looking for and what I have. I do have a statement at the top, along with info on my work status, but I don’t know, it just feels like something isn’t clicking right in this market.

        Any tips would be massively helpful!

        1. Babycarrot*

          I have used the Resume that Alison posted, I’ll have to look for the blog post and add it later. I changed the cover letter as I felt it was a bit too direct for the company I work for (applying for an internal job offer) but I took a similar approach. It has a profile section and a “key experience” or highlights section which I put in bullet points for emphasis, they are directly related to the job application I am going for.

    6. ElspethGC*

      Following – as a soon-to-be grad from uni here in the UK, I want to make sure I’m doing things how we do them rather than how you lot on the other side of the pond do them!

  9. dwigt*

    Myself and another coworker were recently moved from one company suite to the other – in the same building, but on different sides. The new suite is a few doors down from a plastic surgeon’s office. It’s not uncommon to see people coming and going from procedures with bandages on their face and being escorted by a nurse. The other coworker who moved is a nice middle-aged lady, and we bonded a bit over both of us having to move suites (it makes sense for our job descriptions, but we both fit in better with the other crowd, if that makes sense). The first time she saw someone coming out of the doctor’s office with bandages on their face, she made a remark about how upsetting it was to her. I wasn’t sure if it was because she found it visually unappealing, if she is opposed to plastic surgery, or if she was expressing sympathy for someone’s health, but she talked about it for a few minutes. I didn’t know how to respond, other than “mmm,” and “hopefully they have a speedy recovery!”

    I thought that was that, but she was WAITING FOR ME IN THE PARKING LOT while watching a very elderly woman with bandages on her face walking in to the clinic, and she talked about it non-stop the whole way in. I know the patient couldn’t hear us, but it was very clear at this point that she just found it gross and personally disturbing for someone to have the audacity to be outdoors after (gasp!) elective plastic surgery. This woman could have been a burn victim, for all we know. Plastic surgery is not for me, but I don’t have a problem with it. Also, a good deal of plastic surgery is reconstructive after an accident, surgery, etc! These comments that my coworker makes make me very uncomfortable. We usually arrive around the same time, and she sits near the entry/exit to my parking lot, so I have to pass her coming and going. I’m the only person who is ever around when she makes these comments, so if I said something to HR about it I feel our relationship would be damaged. That doesn’t bother me on a personal level, but I do have to pass her every time I leave my office. Anyone have any ideas for how to quickly change the subject or diffuse the situation? I especially don’t want someone else walking in to think that I am participating in shaming someone for having an operation, elective or not.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      FWIW, my dad went to a plastic surgeon to have a cancerous growth removed from his knee since the plastic surgeon better understood the vascular system and how to apply the skin graft; granted I was maybe 8 at the time, so my memory is a bit fuzzy, but it was definitely a plastic surgeon. So not all everyone leaving the office may be having “elective” surgery.

      2. blackcat*

        My mom has gone to a plastic surgeon repeatedly for skin cancer issues.

        One surgeon cuts out the cancer, plastic surgeon stitches her up. The awkward thing is, since these are simple, in office procedures, someone has to drive her from one office to the other, with a gauze packed opened wound. It’s quite grizzly, but insurance only covers it as “outpatient” which means it’s her job to get from point A to point B for the two portions of the minor surgery.

        1. Alice*

          What a nightmare. I mean, I’m glad that your mom and her providers have figured out how to treat it and get it covered, but what kind of misaligned incentives produce this kind of health care system….

      3. HoorayCollegeFootball*

        My husband had to go to a plastic surgeon to repair an injury to his face. He split his lip in half (dropped weights he was lifting on it), and the regular surgeon in the ER wouldn’t touch it. He said there were too many nerves and he could do more damage if it wasn’t done properly. Definitely not elective.

      4. Lily in NYC*

        But it shouldn’t matter either way! No one should ever have to justify going to a plastic surgeon, even if they simply don’t like their nose.

        1. Observer*

          That’s completely true. The point is, though, that it’s doubly gross because she doesn’t know what’s behind the surgery. And in the case of an older patient, it’s VERY unlikely to be purely about looks.

      5. ElspethGC*

        Some pretty unusual things fall under the remit of plastic surgery. My mum’s finger reconstruction, after she de-gloved the top of her finger past the nail bed, was done by a plastic surgeon.

      6. NoMoreMrFixit*

        Me too. A plastic surgeon took care of melanoma years ago. Went to him a few years later for another quick procedure that was also not cosmetic. This person needs to be reminded that not all patients are there for “trivial” issues. And even if people are going for purely cosmetic reasons it’s their business why and shouldn’t be a topic for ongoing discussion. You’ve got more patience than I would as I’d have already told off your coworker.

    2. ContentWrangler*

      I would first go with a simple, straight-forward – “I don’t want to talk about others’ medical procedures.”
      If she keeps pushing the topic, maybe ask her manager to address it with her? I wouldn’t go straight to HR.

      If the manager doesn’t think it’s a big deal, you could point out that if any of the patients hear someone from your company talking about them that way, it would look bad.

      1. dwigt*

        Oh, I didn’t even think about what would happen if someone actually overheard her! That would be awful. I definitely need to say something to someone.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d just tell her you aren’t interested in discussing the medical conditions of strangers.

      And there are so many necessary surgeries that fall under the auspices of plastic surgery that if she’s really being judgy about that, she is a terrible person.

      1. dwigt*

        Honestly, it doesn’t seem like it has even occurred to her that any of the procedures might be necessary, not that that makes it any better at all. She rolls her eyes, like she’s thinking “Another rich housewife, scarring all these innocent pedestrians because she wanted a face lift.” It’s so….gross and weird.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          My breast reduction was medically necessary and considered plastic surgery. But it’s really not your responsibility to educate her either.

        2. Observer*

          I don’t know what is weirder to me: The fact that she’s being so judgemental about this (I mean, really, this is NONE of her business, and doesn’t affect her life in the least!) Or the fact that the sight of the bandages is SO disturbing to her.

    4. Rey*

      I think any comment similar to “Oh, I’m so burned out talking about this every day. Let’s talk about (subject change here)” or “It’s so weird how often we talk about this. Let’s talk about (subject change here)”

    5. LilySparrow*

      “I don’t want to talk about other people’s medical issues. It’s none of my business, and I’m not interested. If it upsets you to see people with bandages, then don’t look at them.”

      Lather, rinse.

      “Look, I’ve told you before that I don’t want to talk about this. It’s really wierd that you keep bringing it up. Let’s just change the subject.”

      And if she won’t drop it, “If you can’t talk about anything else, then let’s just stick to work subjects. Please stop hanging around waiting for me. You keep saying mean things about strangers, and I don’t want to hear it.”

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I’d take a straight read on this one. I would figure it meant she felt badly for the pain/suffering the individual had to go through. I don’t know what she discussed with you in the parking lot so maybe my take here is off the mark.

      However, I think I would just shrug and say, “It comes with the job.” Then share your thoughts with her, this could be, ” I frame it as the person needed/wanted help and they got the help they were looking for. Then I let it go.” She is probably just wondering how you can just continue on about your day.

      I have found that sometimes I can say, “X comes with the job” and a light bulb goes on for people. Oh, this is just part of our normal day. I have also added, “I have never had a job where some aspect of the job left me uncomfortable. There is always something that I could do without and be okay.”

      I have also gone into a conversation about how sometimes the things I work hardest at have very little to do with the work itself. I have a person who I am working with now who has an Extreme Injury. Person is used to the idea as the injury happened long ago. But this whole story is new to me and I consider myself successful if I do not start crying for this person in front of them. My heart just breaks for the amount of damage this person has suffered on their body. I work harder at keeping a professional face than I work at the actual tasks required there. You might point out that keep a professional face sometimes is harder than the actual work we have to do.

      I see suggestions for going to HR etc. which you could do. I would be more inclined just to see if you cue her in to how you think about it and move on that might be enough right there. My boss was a help to me regarding our person. We chatted briefly and we each found a path for ourselves.

      1. LCL*

        This.., this is good advice. I can see certain family members of mine behaving as older coworker, because they are freaked! out! by things medical. There are people who are fortunate enough to have gone through life without ever having had to get physically close to someone who is broken and bleeding, and their vision of the medical world is a very simple one-you get sick or hurt, you go to the doctor or hospital and get better.

    8. gecko*

      “It makes me feel weird to talk about patients’ surgeries and bandages.” Maybe shrug. “Plus I definitely don’t want a patient to hear us.”

      After that you can just say, “Hope they recover well,” or “Hope they’re doing better soon,” if it comes up again in a friendly way.

      I wouldn’t get into the maybes and the it-might-be-necessaries; I think it would be making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. I think the comments will also fade sharply once you all get more used to your office.

    9. here and now*

      I … literally faint at the sight of blood … is the sight of bandages disturbing … YES. Could it be squeamishness instead of judgement? But you could still tell her that you want to decline to discuss the situation rather than focus on it. Maybe send her to management to brainstorm solutions on how to avoid seeing patients?

    10. Garland not Andrews*

      I really think you may need to be blunt. When she starts up, interrupt her with “Can you leave off already? Why they go the that doctor is none of our business and I don’t want to hear it!”
      Sometimes you need to be pointed to get the message across.

    11. HannahS*

      “Oof, Jean, I don’t want to talk about medical procedures.”
      She can think that it’s because they make you feel a bit faint or sick or something. It’ll also save you from ever hearing about her medical procedures, so double-benefit!

    12. Girl friday*

      I may be the only one that’s picking up on this, but why was she waiting for you in the parking lot? I think that would be odd.

    13. Anonama doo doo doo doo do*

      My husband had to work with a plastic surgeon after his pinky needed to be amputated due to melanoma cancer. Next time, perhaps tell your colleague that you know someone who had to go to a plastic surgeon for cancer. Maybe that will work?

      1. C*

        Or you could tell her that some random internet stranger (me) has to get her deviated septum fixed by a plastic surgeon because some abusive ex beat the crap out of me. It was SEVEN years ago, but my breathing/bloody nose have grown steadily worse. The reason I waited so long? He literally has to break my nose. And I already spent months walking around looking like something out of a horror movie. I seriously made a little girl cry on a bus. So no, I do not want to get my face re-broken; I just want to be able to breathe.

    14. Indie*

      Some people are really squeamish and would never choose to work near a medical place. I know people with such bad phobias they never have check ups and won’t even wait in a dentist’s office to give a friend a ride home.

      Practically though, this is annoying AF. Since she’s seeking validation/a partnership in being grossed out just let that hope die on the vine: “Oh, it doesn’t bother me”, “I didn’t notice”, “I’m always really glad when people get the medical attention they need”.

      Other than that use a tone for this topic which implies youre listening to paint dry and perk up again with a quick! subject! change!

  10. Kes*

    I know this has come up in previous posts, but since I’m currently in this situation I wanted to ask people who hire: what do you think of 1.5 page resumes?

    Backstory: After watching a guy with half my experience being promoted past me for the second time this year (after taking over the senior role on a project earlier this year after my coworker left), with radio silence on the possibility of my getting promoted (although I asked my boss about it months ago and he seemed to think it reasonable at the time), I’m planning to apply to senior positions elsewhere. I have 7 years of experience total: 2 at this job, 3 at my last job, and 2 in the form of six work terms of four months each during university. In university I had a two page resume with awards and extracurriculars, but since I graduated and have been working I stripped that down to one page of just summary, work (leaving off older/less relevant work terms) and education. However, for applying to senior positions for the first time I obviously want to play up and include all my experience, so it will no longer fit on one page, but it’s nowhere near two pages either… So I’m wondering if having a partial page looks bad/awkward, or if there’s anything else I should add to make it longer, or if I should keep it to one page (while still trying to make sure I list all my experience)?

      1. irene adler*

        Agreed.

        The overarching goal is to get the reader interested in you/your skills/your experience and want to set up an interview with you. Plowing through 6 pages is likely to create dis-interest. No one is going to downgrade the length of the resume (at 1 to 1.5 pages) because of lack of experience or over experience.

      1. Super dee duper anon*

        Ok so this a personal pet peeves of mine, and I would never actually disqualify someone for this alone… But I hate when resumes go onto a second page by only a line or two. Play with spacing/margins/sizing or something!

        Otherwise though, I’ve never cared if it was a quarter page, half page or full page.

    3. straws*

      An extra half page wouldn’t bother me unless it was due to a lot of unnecessary information. Even then, it would be less about length and more about having to read through fluff I don’t care about. Since you’re talking about relevant work experience only, that wouldn’t deter me one bit!

    4. Zuzu*

      I’m a recruiter for a large finance company – 2 pages is totally fine! Just make sure it focuses on your work accomplishments vs. educational ones. If you’re 5 years out of school, most people aren’t interested in your college awards/extracurriculars.

    5. Bea*

      Once you’re established and have enough to fit on 2 pages, it’s completely fine.

      Don’t feel pressure to be one just the 1 page limit. It’s a guide to detour those from over compensating or keeping in useless GPAs and your hobbies kind of stuff.

      If it’s relevant, keep it. If it’s fluff or ancient, delete it. But don’t play into any hard and fast rule of only one page.

      1. Mickey Q*

        I just got a 3-pager from a guy who graduated high school in 1986 and put his varsity sports, position, and that he was a starter – in addition to every job he had since he graduated from college.

        1. Bea*

          I’ve gotten these. They’re never a qualified applicant. Shocker, right?

          Someone once listed every temp assignment they did with a staffing company. Including the tools they used. Box cutters, tape guns and staplers :|

    6. voluptuousfire*

      Perfectly fine! My resume is 1.5 pages as well. For anything after mid-career, a resume of 3 pages is the best. I see resumes all day every day and resumes that are 6 pages long appear more often than you would expect.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I don’t think this is universal – in the US the general advice is still keep it to 2 pages max for most fields. I have 20 yrs experience and my resume is either 1 page or 2 pages, depending on the type of job I’m applying to. (My CV is 7+ pages but that’s only used for academia here.)

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      Formatting matters a lot in resumes. I would rather read a 2 page than a 1.5 page. It’s really hard to make a 1.5 page resume not look sloppy. Can you add some spacing? More white space in a resume isn’t bad, as long as it doesn’t make it look like you were just trying to fill room.

    8. Evil HR Person*

      Ditto all the above, plus: when I first look at the resumes that come through, they are formatted by an ATS (applicant tracking system) so I can’t really tell whether it’s 1 or 2 pages long. Once I print it out, if I print it at all, I can see whether it’s more than one page, but by the printing stage I’ve either thought the person is a strong candidate, or the person has been hired. As long as everything on your resume is relevant, more than one page is fine. More than 2 would be fine also, but only in certain professions. So… go for it! And good luck!

    9. Kes*

      Thanks everyone for the feedback so far! I’m definitely not doing six pages, and I understand two is fine. I’m more concerned about whether having a partial page looks weird and I should try and make it be only full pages somehow, or whether it’s fine. It’s true that I’m likely to be submitting online though.

    10. Lexi Kate*

      2 pages wouldn’t be a big deal the only thing is You have only have two jobs out of college I really think you should try and consolidate to 1page. The majority should focus on your skills and your current job, summarize the others. You have been in the workforce long enough your education should just be a few lines, No school awards should be mentioned, you work experience will outweigh the education extras.

    11. BRR*

      I’m in the middle of hiring right now and I think I’ve landed on the opinion of 1.5 is better than 2. It seems like every candidate has so much extra stuff to either stretch it out or they think it’s important (quantity over quality I guess) and I’m not liking it. I’d prefer if they left out the minor things that aren’t impressive overall and aren’t impressive for this particular role.

    12. Yojo*

      Whatever you do, don’t try to make things smaller by shrinking font, margins and white space. Readability and visual appeal matter way more than keeping things contained to a certain area.

    13. Lucille2*

      I would avoid adding content to try to reach 2 full pages rather than leaving a half page. It might come off as obvious or awkward. Also, keep in mind that many large companies have online application/recruiting systems that change the formatting of your original resume anyway. It’s great when you can upload a pdf version and keep the formatting you prefer, but that’s not always the version the hiring manager gets to see.

      Also, if a resume is 2 or less pages, I don’t really notice the length of the resume. I’m more interested in its content. I start noticing if it seems very short for the level of experience for which I’m hiring, or excessively long. I’m pretty amazed that I get as many 5+ page resumes as I do. THAT is a major turn off.

    14. skyline9*

      Up to 2 pages if fine as long as you’re midcareer or later. Which you are! But I think you want the second page at least half full without needing fluff to reach that length – just a second or two on the second page makes me think you can’t edit.

  11. Miss M*

    So I’ve been looking for a new job for 5 months now. I’m currently employed, but miserable at my job and in my city, and my partner relocated to another state to start their PHD. Their state is relatively saturated with my type of work, so when I see a job opening, I hop on it.

    I’m interviewing for one position soon. The thing is, I’ve got it drilled in me from my parents that the only new job I should take will significantly pay me more or pay for relocation. In my industry, this isn’t super common, but has happened to me before for my current job, but it’s a big university.

    This new position sounds interesting, but would be a pay cut or offer the exact same pay as it’s for a school district, but a better title and a little bit more responsibility. It pays less because it’s only contracted for 220 days of the year (this wasn’t mentioned until the invitation to interview.)

    My whole spirit wants so desperately to join my partner and try something new, but my parents are seriously bashing me for considering taking a new job across the country for less or similar pay. “You’ll never move up in salary if you take this job.” The benefits are nearly the same as my current job. In my mind, it might be easier to find another higher paying job in that state once I’m physically there (so maybe I should take the job.)

    I’m in my mid twenties and this would be my third full time job if I took it. Lower or lateral salary, but possibility of learning more and gaining experience and a new title. Sigh. Any advice?

      1. Reba*

        Agreed, time to put your folks on a information diet. They are negging you, giving you advice they are probably unqualified to give, and possibly discouraging you for their own reasons (they want you nearby, they don’t like partner, who knows?).

        Look at cost of living differences between locations, that could mitigate the pay difference. Consider potential future earnings and job paths, since you say it offers better title and more responsibility.

        I say go for it! I mean at this point, you’re still interviewing. You still have time to learn more that will help you confirm if you–YOU, not your parents–want to take the job. Good luck!

        Also, think about some contingency plans for what you will do if it doesn’t work out with partner (assuming you will move in together in New Place).

    2. ContentWrangler*

      Also, have you compared the costs of living between your partner’s city and yours? If it’s a cheaper place to live, it makes sense that the pay would be lower.

      1. Miss M*

        The cost of living is cheaper than where I live in almost all aspects except for rent. It’s a college town so apartments are stupid expensive. I could also find a roommate or move in with my partner again to mitigate those costs.

    3. OtterB*

      Maybe tell your parents less detail about your job search. Because unless you’re asking for money from them, I don’t think they get a say here.

      It seems to me that being back in the same location with your partner is a big plus and it’s worth a lateral move pay-wise. It also seems true that being in the new location will make it easier to job hunt there.

    4. Kes*

      You could try to negotiate a bit on pay, but it sounds like there are plenty of other reasons to take the job – pay is only one aspect. If the job seems good otherwise, I’d say take it and stop talking to your parents about the job search.

    5. Work Wardrobe*

      Yeah, leave salary discussion out of your conversation with parents. I know it’s hard, but practice saying, “I’m making my own decisions about my career, thanks for understanding.”

    6. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’m on your side with this one. Plus, with those additional 145 days, maybe you can find a temporary position to offset the salary difference. I agree that it’s easier to job search when you’re local, and it sounds like this position might be a good launching pad to bigger and better things! Tell your parents you hear them and appreciate their opinion but that you’ve made the decision that’s best for you right now. You get to disagree with them — and good luck with the move!

      1. JessicaTate*

        Agreed. I’d factor in the additional time off / opportunity for a side gig into the calculation. If you break the salary down to an hourly rate, you’re actually making more than your current gig.

        Also, assuming you and the partner are serious and thinking long-term, that has to factor in. Sometimes we accept trade-offs in our professional lives (including taking a salary hit) because of the context of our personal lives. Just think of all the costs of flights or driving to see one another that will be saved in a move!

        Good luck!

    7. M. Albertine*

      I think you should look at it more in terms of career progression and not focus solely on pay (since it seems you can afford to do so). In your head, justify the move to potential future employers, not your parents: what will this job add to your resume?

      It sounds like you know what you want and just need advice on how to get your parents to butt out. On that end, shut down the information train on your salary and keep the conversation focused on “here’s where I am in the process, I’m pretty excited about this opportunity, aren’t you happy for me?” kind of attitude. They might be picking up on some hesitation on your part, and need a different cue from you.

    8. blackcat*

      Both my husband and I have moved for the other and been unemployed for some time as a result. One of those moves happened pre-marriage, in our early twenties.

      Tell your parents less. You are an adult. They do not get votes on your professional and personal life.

    9. KnottyFerret*

      I think you need to consider benefits and cost of living before I’d agree with your parents.
      In your case, living in the same city as your partner would be a significant benefit, as well as learning opportunities and ability to move up.
      You might point out to your parents that being hired at slightly lower pay with lots of learning opportunities and options for promotions is better long-term than taking a dead-end position, even if it’s at the top of the payscale.

    11. Essess*

      If you want the job, then do it. And there’s absolutely no reason for your parents to know what your salary is once you are an adult. If they ask, you simply tell them that money is one of those adult topics that is simply ‘not discussed’ in polite society. :-) If they get pushy, you tell them you are happy with what you negotiated, and leave it at that.

    12. Miss M*

      Thank you all for your replies. I totally know y’all are right about not involving my parents in the job search (and I’m actually in therapy working on boundaries with my parents.) My family is very small and close knit and especially due to their culture they definitely want to be involved in every step of life. I’ve relied on them for advice for so long that I’m used to oversharing with them. You all have given me lots to think about! The job may not even pan out, but I want to be prepared if it does.

      Perhaps I can negotiate something if it does work out? Or find a temp job in my off days.

      1. Bea*

        Also remember sometimes a small cut in salary is short term.

        I took a modest cut, still could live fine off of it. Six months in, I’m making 10% more with regular raises and bonuses on the horizon.

        Many cultures also instill employer loyalty and leaving only under the circumstances your parents have listed. It’s an old traditionalist POV. This isn’t true in our generation.

      2. blackcat*

        You can definitely negotiate, but I highly recommend using your days off to explore a new city, find things to do, meet friends, and generally build community.
        It’s a totally valid choice to move to be with a partner, even without something lined up.
        It’s also a totally valid choice to just move to move. One of my friends quit his job, moved, and couch served until he found a job in the city he wanted to live in. He was 25 at the time.
        Not every choice in life has to “make sense” at the time you make it. If you don’t have kids/a lot of debt, your 20s can be a great time for trying new things, failing, and regrouping after learning a lot.

        1. OH GOD BEES*

          I love this advice!

          I also think that the time off provides some really interesting opportunities for your growth as a professional, even if a lot of it can be “fun”. For example, if you initially invest the time into things like volunteering, trying new things, learning, and meeting other people in your new location, you may find it easier to eventually take on work consulting, start a side-gig, or you might identify some neat certifications/professional development opportunities that could really prepare you for the next step in your career.

        2. MrsCHX*

          (roundabout relationship) but the best friend of an ex-boyfriend had lived in about 4 different cities during her 20s and was getting ready to relocate while he and I were dating. He was SO offended! She “needed to stay put” and “build” somewhere.
          Uhmm, what?! She had no kids and wasn’t in a serious relationship…she should do whatever she wants!!!!! She’s been in city #5 for the last decade plus and has created a fantastic life there.

        3. Miss M*

          That’s a good idea!!

          I don’t have much debt and no kids (but am thinking of a dog one day) so nothing really to tie me down. thanks!

        4. sincerely confused*

          I honestly don’t understand the OP’s take on this. I am a hiring manager who has heard many times that an applicant (usually a woman) came to my town to follow a romantic interest and when the relationship didn’t work out felt “stuck” and had regret about moving here.

          I understand that in this specific case the OP has a good chance to finding good job, but if she’s willing to move to do that, why restrict her choices to the once location that the partner has selected? Maybe I don’t appreciate the degree of connection described by the word “partner,” but it sounds like someone who is more committed to his career than he is to the relationship.

          When I read “It’s a totally valid choice to move to be with a partner, even without something lined up” this makes me wonder why I would move and change jobs just to follow somebody else, unless we were married. If somebody could explain this to me, I’d be grateful.

          1. Miss M*

            Eh. I get you, but not everyone in a partnership wants marriage. My partner is not a male, please don’t assume that.

            If our partnership didn’t work out, this would not be detrimental to the move. I do have other friends and ties out there. But it is important to my well being to have my partner in the same state, long distance is not ideal. If they were not pursuing a PhD, it would be a different story rather than they starting a career. They have made moved to my location while I got a new job, I would like to move their as they are in school for 5 years. There are compromises. That’s all.

      3. pcake*

        You could find work for your off-work periods or even do a little freelance writing or something like that. But you’d be near your partner or possibly living with your partner and you wouldn’t be in a miserable job.

      4. Cascadia*

        You mentioned it’s for a school district, so I’m assuming the large amount of days off is summer and school breaks off. As a teacher myself, just know there are soooo many opportunities for stipend paid seasonal work in the summer. A lot of teachers work for summer camps, summer school, lead trips, nanny, house/dog sit, or many other gigs in the summers to earn some extra cash. I’d say go for it! I’ve done long-term long distance with my partner and it blows.

    13. Bea*

      PLEASE work on following your heart and detaching from your parents having so much pull on you.

      You are an adult. Please make decisions on your own. You are smart and talented, you deserve it.

      Follow your partner. Take a job that you enjoy and pays your bills. End story.

    15. There is hope even with a lower paycheck*

      Four years ago, I moved to a new city and took a job with a slight pay cut. Within a year, my raise was enough where it was more than what I made at my old job. The starting salary at Current Job was $1,250 less than my final salary at Old Job, which I knew that I could also make up the difference elsewhere, even with my added expenses of rent etc in New City. I lived at home with parents in Old City.

      I really liked the people I met and I knew I wanted Current Job so I accepted the offer. I’ve been here for 4+ years and it’s one of the best jobs I’ve had.

      1. Miss M*

        Hey, that’s great to hear! I don’t know how much upward mobility there is at the job I’m interviewing for. I know promotions are definitely a thing, but the max range they’ve budgeted is less than I make currently. So I probably can’t hope for that… But! I don’t know, I’m going to go into the interview and see what happens. Thanks for your encouraging story!

    16. Lily in NYC*

      It is time to stop telling your parents details about your job search -I know it’s easier said than done. I made that mistake for way too long and didn’t realize how much my mother’s anxiety affected my decisions. It finally hit me after I almost turned down a job because it entailed a move and my mom was just so negative about it. I was absorbing her negativity without realizing it. The next time I look for a new job I’m not even going to mention it until I accept a new offer. I don’t know if you live near your parents, but if you do, it’s not unrealistic to assume they just don’t like the idea of your moving away.

      1. Miss M*

        Totally easier said than done!! But working on it. Thank you for sharing that story as well. I realized that most of my decisions (about my life, but especially work) revolved around making sure I pleased my parents. I know they love me and want the best for me, but I also want to do things on my own decision. It’s scary because they account for so much of my support system (emotionally, only financially if I was in a tough bind.) My mom is actually all for me moving away because she wants me to be closer to my partner, but my dad is the “business man” of the family. He’s military and worked his way up the ranks and now makes a lot of money. We’re in two completely different fields, so he constantly compares myself to him, and feels I don’t measure up success wise (i.e., I’m not a director of a division or something at 26.)

        Even if it’s scary to make a decision that my parents won’t approve of, at least it’s my own, right? If I make a mistake, they can always say “told you so” but as another commenter said, 20s are definitely time to explore and make some mistakes.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          Interesting! So it’s more about money and career advancement than anxiety about your moving away. That’s a different type of pressure than I dealt with and seems more difficult to manage. Have you tried telling him you have different priorities and that you define success a bit differently than he does? But I totally get how hard it is – I also wanted to please my parents; they’ve done so much for me. It took me until my mid-30s to set some boundaries and not share as much about my life choices.
          Your gut is telling you this move is the right thing for you. GO FOR IT! I wish I hadn’t made so many safe choices in my 20s – I didn’t realize how young I truly was and that it was ok to fail at something or take a risk.

        2. Argh!*

          If you stay, invest some of your disposable income in therapy to help you deal with your parents. Then, when you do move away, they won’t hitch a ride in your head.

    17. Smarty Boots*

      Stop telling your parents everything. When you get the job, tell them about it, but keep the details about pay and so on to yourself. I myself tell my dad such details, but that’s because he is savvy and understands the complex considerations one might have when changing jobs — and he’s in his 80s! Your parents are not like this. Don’t keep feeding them.

    18. Garland not Andrews*

      Sometimes a lateral transfer is perfectly ok. The reason you are changing is NOT because it is time to move up, it is all about being with your partner. Get a job where you want to be and as others have said, put the parent on an information diet.
      Do what makes you happy and good luck!

    19. Jennifer Thneed*

      Another thing to factor into your projected expenses is how much it will cost to visit your partner in the new city.

      But really, actual dollars are only part of the job. There’s tangible benefits (like health insurance) and intangible ones (like the new city has more trees, or you see your partner more often).

      But the single biggest reason to move and change jobs is in your own words: “miserable at my job and in my city”.

  12. ExcelJedi*

    My coworker invited me to her Pure Romance party.

    We’re not close. We’ve gone out for drinks once and are friendly, but as coworkers.

    There’s nothing else to that story. I just can’t even.

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I had to look that up.

      So sorry, I’d find that pretty intrusive. I like doing my sex toy shopping *not* with co-workers.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You don’t want to go buy sex toys with your coworkers? How come? /s

      (I went to one of these with family. I don’t want to talk about it.)

    4. anon24*

      I can relate. One of my coworkers is very obnoxious with no boundaries and is also a Pure Romance consultant. I was… not very nice when she tried to talk to me about it the second time I’d ever met her

    7. Bad Janet*

      Don’t do it. Their sex toys are pretty poor quality, and way over-priced. You can get much better options elsewhere.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        I don’t think the issue is the quality of the products but the fact that a coworker invited her to a sex toy party. Boundaries!

      2. Fabulous*

        I have a few friends who peddle Pure Romance. I haven’t found that their toys are poor quality, though I definitely agree that many of them are extremely overpriced! I prefer their perfumes and pheromone-infused oils.

      3. Lonely Aussie*

        Agreed. Poor quality jelly crap by the looks.
        Sex toys are unregulated and many contain phthalates and other nasty chemicals. They can cause all kinds of issues (in some people it can cause burning, rashes and blistering from direct contact as well as head aches and cramping from absorbing chemicals) and it’s porous meaning it’ll never be able to be cleaned properly. They’ll also break down over time or melt in to other jelly toys. Basically any jelly type toys should be discarded and replaced with either 100% pure silicone, sealed wood, glass, metal or ASB plastic. You can run a flame test on suspect toys, if it burns/bubbles it’s likely bad but if you just get a bit of soot, it’s probably silicone.

        I looked into running these types of parties and couldn’t find a company that didn’t sell jelly in one form or another and since I’m not interested in selling something I consider unsafe I didn’t end up joining any of them.

    8. Bea*

      MLM peddlers are not the best at social norms. Of course a drink or asking her how her weekend at the beach went means you’re a shoo in for these invites!

      Ick. Now avoid her like she’s got the noro virus.

    9. Traffic_Spiral*

      Man, first I thought she was throwing a Romance-Novel themed party where you all had to come up with a character for your shitty romance book and dress like them, and I was like “ok that actually sounds kinda fun I don’t see what the… oh… O_o. Nope. Nopenopenope.”

      My coworkers do not need to know what I like down there, and I don’t need to know that about them.

      Just… nopes all around.

      2. lapgiraffe*

        I thought for a moment it was a True Romance party, the Christians Slater/Patricia Arquette 90s Classic, and I was very confused why the OP would want to turn down an excellent screening ;-)

        I’m now glad to know that I know no one peddling this Pure Romance stuff

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Just say a simple, “No, thanks” without explanation. She will probably barely notice you said no.

    11. LDP*

      I had a coworker that I actually was friends with invite me to a Pure Romance party…I still didn’t feel comfortable going. As luck would have it, I came down with strep the week before and was still contagious, so that got me out of it! …or so I thought. She brought me a goodie bag from the party and left it on my desk. At work. It was just lip gloss and some shave gel, but I was still mortified, especially since I’d only been at my job maybe 3 months when this happened.

    13. Former Retail Manager*

      Of all the MLM’s to suggest to co-workers, Pure Romance is NOT on the list. What on earth??

    14. Can't Sit Still*

      MLM “parties” with co-workers are awkward enough already. I was ambushed at work twice (holiday party and baby shower) and we were not happy about it. I think it was jewelry and/or makeup with the option for a Pure Romance party later at one of them. Thankfully, I now work for a company that doesn’t allow solicitation in the office.

      Now that I’m thinking about it, because I guess I blocked the horror from my mind, a group of co-workers attended a Pure Romance party together and they informed me afterwards that I made the right decision to decline. I just don’t need to know my co-workers THAT well.

    15. redbug34*

      I once (youngly, foolishly, naively) went to an Avon party thrown by a coworker. I had never been to an MLM thing, and wanted to be social with my team. In hindsight, it was a bad idea. I have terrible skin & don’t use makeup because it just exacerbates the problem. So these ladies tried to get foundation that “fit me” and I ended up looking like a clown. It was humiliating. I bought a weird $6 purple eyeshadow thing just so that I could leave.

      The best part though was the Mary-Kay-loyal coworker who also came, and spent the whole party applying her Mary Kay products, to the chagrin of the hostess. It was some weird MLM animosity for sure.

  13. MuseumChick*

    I had a really good interview for a job I ended up not getting. The hiring manager sent me a very nice personalized email express how much they like me and how I had great experience but the other candidate simply had more experience. He strongly encouraged to apply to future opening. Which, I plan to do.

    My question is, should I mention my previous interview in my cover letter when I apply again? I’m just not sure of the protocol here.

    1. Reba*

      Yes, I think something like “I enjoyed learning about Company when I interviewed with Person back in September” can work. I believe Alison has answered a similar question so have a look in the archives for scripts.

      Sorry you didn’t get it, but sounds like it was a good application experience.

    2. Shiara*

      I think you can also drop the hiring manager an email when you next apply to remind him who you are/note that you’ve submitted materials and hope you’ll get the opportunity to talk again.

      Good luck. Near misses are so frustrating

      1. MuseumChick*

        And this was an extreme near miss, lol. I have a friend who works at the company who gave me a heads up about the opening. A week after I applied she asked if I had heard anything back, I said no. She investigated. Turns out the HR there had a new person start and my application got lost in transition. The hiring manager reached out to my directly when he found out.

        It is frustrating. I really want to give my notice, sigh.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I think this is your best bet. Save his email and when that job comes up hit the reply button, so his comments are beneath your current email.

    3. Bea*

      Absolutely mention it next time. They may not recall your name but a “I interviewed last spring” will ring a bell or they can look back on the old file etc. Otherwise they’ll have too much going on and you’ll fade a bit just by the natural progression of time not because you weren’t a great candidate.

  14. Glinda*

    I work with “Elphaba”- it’s just the two of us in our dept. Elphaba has been with the company for 10 years and I started about a year ago. (She is also best friends with the boss.) The boss wanted me to work on a project setting up a new software program and Elphaba was livid that I was chosen and she wasn’t. Elphaba was complaining about it to everyone when I wasn’t around and kept giving me the stink eye and dirty looks when I would see her.

    Well, turns out that they’re hiring someone else to manage the software- which is good because I know that I don’t have the required industry experience (though I have the tech background). Elphaba is happy because we’re both doing a minor role in the project, but I’m not heading it as originally planned. (I found this out from Elphaba, who has to know anything and everything.)

    I guess all is good, but why did Elphaba have to make such a big stink about it? It was so embarrassing! Plus, wouldn’t you be happy for your coworker? If my coworker could do something that I couldn’t, I would try to learn from them and be happy for them. I would be a team player, unlike Elphaba.

    Has anyone ever experienced this? Am I making a big deal out of nothing?

    2. Red Lines with Wine*

      I can understand the other side of this, because I can be territorial, and that’s something I’m working on. When I have a defined role and feel that I have the proper experience and knowledge on how to do something but I am left out on the project, I get salty, too. However, I would never give my coworkers the stink eye or gossip behind their back. I would simply clarify with my manager the roles on the team and ask to be included since I can see that I would be of some help. If my manager says no, so be it. But I get that people can be miffed when they feel left out, and can take it really personal. Job insecurity (or personal insecurity/anxiety) can be a real bitch sometimes.

      1. Utoh!*

        Agreed! I actually wish someone on my team would feel that way, it seems all the difficult projects/tasks are always given to me, and no one bats an eye. I am the only woman on the team though, so maybe that’s the difference…!

    3. Auntie Social*

      You might suggest to her, to mollify her somewhat, that she’s been there a long time and they already know what she can do. You’re relatively new so they’re giving you chance(s), to see what you can do.
      We had to have this talk with our senior paralegal when the junior paralegal was left in charge for a week during our vacation. We just needed to see what people’s strengths are—it wasn’t that senior paralegal had done a bad job before. And it’s good for a junior staffer’s morale to know the boss thinks that they’ve got this.

  15. Anonymous Today*

    I need to vent about Facebook! I hate it! Our company’s offices, like many others in the retail business, have Facebook pages. Our corporate office posts helpful information for our customers, like fraud prevention, office closure info, etc. on our office’s page. We post local stuff like charity functions and shout-outs to our customers. We get nice comments/compliments often.

    Last week, our manager was lambasted in a Facebook post on our page by a person (not a local, so nobody knows them) who was unhappy with the way their transaction unfolded. This person completely twisted their “story” to make themselves seem like a victim. It was full of lies! They questioned our manager’s ethics, integrity and professionalism! Our corporate people asked our manager about what happened. Manager gave the actual story, which is the complete opposite of the facebook post. There are several of us who can vouch for the manager’s version as we were involved in the jerk’s transaction, too. Our corporate people were so mad they wanted to counter the mean, untruthful post with the real story. They decided that it would just make us look like we are making excuses – for something that NEVER happened – and, instead, replied with a post that they were sorry the person’s perception of our service wasn’t up to our excellent standards. They also contacted jerk privately. Our manager was the bigger person, too. Their feeling is that they know the truth about what happened and that has to be good enough for them. I’m proud that upper management and my manager took the high road. I might have not been so generous.

    I hate that we even feel like we have to have a Facebook page. Anyone with a keyboard and internet connection can trash someone else, even if it’s not true. So unfair.

    End of rant.

    2. Holly*

      If it helps, I know when I see a company respond *POLITELY* to a negative review and alludes to the situation without too much detail I tend to buy the company’s side of a story. A long paragraph that goes “well actually, YOU said this and YOU did that” comes off as a bit unhinged, even though the manager/company may have the right to be upset!

      2. Chalupa Batman*

        Agree. When a company is polite, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, especially if the comment itself was rude or looked like there may be some exaggeration happening. When the company gets defensive, I wonder how they’d handle it if I had a complaint. Something like “We’re so sorry you had a negative experience, please send us a DM and we’ll see what we can do” tells me that they’ll at least try. Some people are never happy…and the Venn diagram with those people and the type of person who posts diatribes in public forums has a LOT of overlap.

        1. Holly*

          Exactly. I once saw a really bad review of a wedding vendor, and the vendor politely responded saying something like “Unfortunately we could not accomodate your brother’s last minute request for a bouncy castle – we’ll make it more clear next time that such requests should be discussed in an advance of the night of the wedding. I am sorry you were not fully satisfied. ” It was such a skilled way of revealing that the commenter was the one who was completely unreasonable, while still being POLITE, apologizing and mentioning a way to avoid it in the future.

            1. Holly*

              I honestly can’t remember exactly but I think it really was about that! The brother in law apparently suggested a lot of activities including a bouncy castle the day before the wedding, which couldn’t have been done any way for insurance reasons, according to the vendor. It was too funny.

    3. Workerbee*

      I feel this.

      It is an anthropological dream to see how people conduct themselves on corporate Facebook pages. The off-topic rants. The all-caps typing. The Only The First Letter Of Every Word typing (which, why??). The deriding of your product/program when the poster clearly hasn’t actually _used_ it…are there people that just sit on Facebook all day waiting to swoop in because they must feel heard to escape the emptiness gnawing at them inside?

      Kudos to your people for handling it the way you did. I always pay attention to how a brand handles negative comments. It’s not easy because oh, the temptation to hand the troll’s arse to them–! But taking the high road really does pay off.

    4. Bea*

      This is the grotesque side of online marketing platforms and reviews.

      Thankfully your corporate folks are SOLID it sounds like and did the right thing investigating and trusting the store side version.

      Fighting back is not good. It looks bad to see a company stoop to their level. Instead please know most reasonable folks know the angry “wronged” person is probably exaggerating their issue.

      It’s like on Yelp where a review is over the top. You ignore the crap unless it’s an on going theme.

    5. epi*

      I’m sorry, that sucks. I would be super annoyed too.

      If it makes you feel any better, I (and I think a lot of people based on comments I have read here and elsewhere) read these reviews looking for patterns and don’t necessarily credit a single really angry review. It can be hard to read reviews about your own company with any distance, but if this person was such a jerk I also wonder if their review even sounds that credible to most readers. I read Yelp reviews all the time where it is clear that the problem is with the person writing review.

      I strongly agree with you about Facebook, also. Frankly I never read those reviews, I stick to Yelp or to sites specifically intended to review whatever type of business or product I am interested in. Whenever I do read Facebook comments and reviews, I find them incredibly low quality even compared to other sites where people can review anonymously. It comes across as a mix of spam/bot accounts, very odd and ignorant people many of whom reached the page by mistake, and other people with credibility problems e.g. family members, oversharers, people with a grudge. I suspect that since (in my circles) very few people review businesses on Facebook, only inappropriate people do it. I know no one cares about seeing my restaurant review in their news feed. So you’re left with reviewers who don’t know or don’t care about social norms. Just because Facebook offers a feature, doesn’t mean you have to use it!

    6. Former Retail Manager*

      Yeah….I almost always check reviews of businesses (mostly restaurants) before frequenting them, but I typically discard reviews like the one the jerk customer left. Unless there are a multitude of them over a long period of time, it is likely a rare occurrence and may not be entirely true. Just comes with the territory of being in business today. Any decent customer is not going to decide to stop doing business with your company over a single review. The world is full of jerks.

    7. Le Sigh*

      Agree with everyone here. I do this on Airbnb, too. And given the risk of a bad Airbnb, if a host has even one snarky, aggressive, or even overly defensive reply to someone — esp. if the person is leaving what sounds like measured, reasonable criticisms — I’m out. If they reply in a measured, rational way, even if the complainer seems over-the-top, I’m less likely to nix the place. I know there are two sides to every story, but the last thing I need on vacation or on business is to find out that the host I rented from is a huge jerk who will mess up my trip. Your company handled it the right way and I promise you most people will see through the complainer.

      1. jolene*

        I had such a bad experience with someone at a company that I went onto their FB page to complain. Hilariously, it turned out that several other customers had problems with ‘Rashida’ as well and had posted very similar complaints. Which had been up for months. I’m guessing the FB person at that company doesn’t much like her either, as the page had been regularly updated…

  16. Anon anony*

    How do you deal with very competitive coworkers? I find myself getting very frustrated and annoyed because I’m trying to work as a team, but they don’t seem to get the memo.

    1. Meh.*

      I HATE dealing with “personalities.” I had co-worker like that a few jobs ago and I would either ignore it or let her find her own mistakes even when I noticed them. What industry are you in? There are some industries where this competitive nature is more common.

        1. Argh!*

          Does everybody receive bonuses or raises based on individual contributions? Some companies are putting a stop to that because it damages teamwork (and demoralizes people).

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I have targeted different grounds than the competitive coworker targeted. This is a little tricky because you want to pick a target that is of value to the company. And you want to chose something that is within your own natural abilities so you are not knocking yourself out trying to “beat” this person.

      Look around. Let’s say Jane really excels at selling widgets. You notice the gadgets are neglected. You can sell gadgets you are good at it. Decide to be the best gadget seller you can possibly be.
      Ex #2. Let’s say that Jane has very good productivity. Your productivity is good, you won’t lose your job any time soon so you can try to beef your productivity just because you should. However, your real target could be cost savings as you have notice the company is all about reducing costs. And this is something you are great at, you see opportunities to reduce costs every day. So you decide to target helping the company save money and distinguish yourself from Jane in this area.

      See, people can’t read into our minds. They don’t know our plans. Jane can only compete on what she sees, not on what you plan to do to make yourself outstanding. Look around. What is Jane NOT doing? Target the missed areas that happened to also be things that are important to the company. Jane starts doing the thing you target, keep doing well with your targeted thing but find a new target and run at that.

    3. Ender*

      I just make sure my manager knows exactly who did which parts and don’t much care if other people are going around saying they did more than me.

  17. Toxic waste*

    Has anyone ever had a coworker who has “already paid their dues” concerning certain job responsibilities and are basically coasting until they retire/find a new job/leave?

    My coworker claims that she doesn’t have to do certain things like pass out forms because she “has been there, done that” and therefore won’t do it.

    1. Aurélia*

      Yes. In newjob and lastjob. Lastjob lady did not respond to a single email I sent her in almost a year of working together. Newjob lady complains VERY LOUDLY to NO ONE IN PARTICULAR about how everyone has retired and left her and they “can’t make” her learn the new finance system that seems like 100% of her job. Every time I hear her frustrated manager have a coaching/accountability check-in with her I want to hug him. She sings hymns and watches/listens to family feud on her desktop somehow and it drives me up a wall. She has advised me that it’s my problem if I don’t want to hear it.

    2. Princess Scrivener*

      Yep. In the military, we called them ROAD (retired on active duty), or short, or having shortitis, as in their remaining time on active duty was short. Over my career, though, I figured out those types of people (lazy, irresponsible) would have been the same way at the beginning of their careers, or in any job.

    3. Alternative Person*

      Yeah, there’s a guy where I work who basically expanded his cubicle into the storage space at the back of the floor into his own mini office and uses that as an excuse not to put in front office time. He also keeps one of the few computers the staff have to share back there. He says other staff can use it but in practice everyone just makes do with the few remaining at the front. These issues has been brought to the manager in various forms over time but it basically comes back that he’s been here a long time and management doesn’t want to upset him.

      It’s not like we do much in the front office but it really shows when he doesn’t know even longtime clients and is basically invisible to both clients and staff for days on end. Frankly though, I’d rather him be back in his little corner than up front because he combines being a sycophant to his immediate peer with irritating performative helplessness, and the sharing of free, unsolicited, bad advice.

      (And I kind of get the urge to carve out a corner at a decent workplace, call it yours and ride the good wave for as long as humanly possible at minimum effort but he’s such a stick in the mud that it’s difficult to make things better/easier because he’s so focused on protecting his own interests, he can’t process the idea that someone else might have something to offer that would be in his interest.)

    4. Audiophile*

      I’ve worked with people who were clearly phoning it in until they could retire. It’s definitely frustrating. I usually just found ways to work with them/deal with it until I could find a new job.

      If this person is a co-worker and not a manager, you can definitely bring this up to TPTB.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I have seen a lot of this. My thought is, “Silly person.”

      See there are opportunities in everything, it’s just a matter of figuring out what opportunity is there.
      You are using the example of passing out forms. I will assume you walk around and hand the forms to people. Hey, lots of opportunity here. You can chat and pick up the latest news from that person. How are they doing, how’s the job going, etc. It takes time but in the process of handing forms to people you can gain a lot of info that you would not have had any other way.

      I hear but-but-but. Okay so you have to email the forms? You can find that conversations start up and you just follow or participate in the conversation. Perhaps you ask the recipients to contact you if they have questions, maybe a couple people ask some very good questions and you grow yourself as an employee because of increased knowledge and because of your increased value.

      It’s usually worked into an opening for me, when other people refuse to do various aspects of the job. You can leverage that.

    7. Bea*

      Yeah…I’ve phoned it in when I was leaving but not to the extent I refused to do anything. I just didn’t do any extra because Ef it why bother.

      These people are miserable anyways so just roll your eyes and enjoy that they’ll be gone soon.

  18. user_loser*

    My current situation is similar to this one:

    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/08/my-coworkers-keep-complaining-about-me.html

    The difference is: My manager doesn’t have my back. He tells me there are complains about me and tells me I lack communication skills, because if I had them people wouldn’t complain about me.

    For example, he tells me to introduce a huge process change, which is bound to provoke protests. I work to introduce it and it does provoke protests. People complain about the changes by turning against me personally. They contact my manager telling them I’m rude so they won’t work with me.

    When I propose that we go through the complains together (most of the communication is by email and I can prove that I haven’t done anything wrong), he screams that he won’t waste time on that.

    Basically, he gives me no chance to prove I haven’t done anything wrong.

    Another situation: some people decided they won’t talk to me. They ignore me, my calls and emails. When I ask my manager for an intervention, he tells me he’s not there to solve my problems and I evidently lack soft skills. He does intervene in such situations for some colleagues and doesn’t have any problems with that, but evidently, he won’t do that for me.

    When I write minutes or emails (I normally try to solve the situation verbally first, but if someone doesn’t answer my phone for hours and doesn’t call back or tells me verbally that they won’t do something, I do turn to writing in order to have in writing that I requested something), he tells me I lack soft skills and people hate me for writing emails (which he sees as a CYA strategy).

    I do search for a new job intensively but haven’t had luck so far. My job is a quite specialistic one and it’s not like I can apply for most adverts I see.

    Can you give me some tips how to survive it? I feel I’m losing my sanity and health. I’ve started losing hair massively several months ago and I have migraines because of stress. I can’t rely on family or friends, most of which live far away from me.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Wow, I’m sorry you have to put on with this. First, do you have an HR department? If yes and if they even half way know what they are doing I would contact them. A second option would be to go above your boss if possible.

      This sounds like a grit your teeth until you find a new job situation.

    3. Product person*

      Your manager sounds awful, and I hope you find a new job soon! Meanwhile, regarding this:

      When I write minutes or emails (I normally try to solve the situation verbally first, but if someone doesn’t answer my phone for hours and doesn’t call back or tells me verbally that they won’t do something, I do turn to writing in order to have in writing that I requested something), he tells me I lack soft skills and people hate me for writing emails (which he sees as a CYA strategy).

      I think you need to try as best as you can to show that you are not the problem and that means being as polite and professional as possible and explaining the consequences if the person refuses to cooperate.

      Person doesn’t answer your phone for hours: Leave a voicemail, and follow-up with a polite email saying something like, “Hi, person, I left you a voicemail about X, but in case you see this first, I was asked by boss to get Report ABC from you, and it’s needed by tomorrow morning if we are to meet our deadlines here. Would you please confirm if you’ll be able to fulfill this request by tomorrow morning? Your help is much appreciated!”

      Person tells you verbally they won’t do something: Tell them, “I understand you may have other priorities, but I was asked to finish project XYZ by the end of the week, and told that you’d be the source for ABC info I need. If you are unable to fulfill this request, should we go together to our(my) manager to discuss?”

      Person ignores you or refuses to go talk to the manager: OK, I’ll speak to my manager about this then, to see if there are other means for me to receive the information I need to finish the job I was given. Thank you, and have a nice day.

      It may seem infuriating to try to accommodate colleagues who you believe are in the wrong, but sometimes that’s what we have to do in order to survive a bad situation until we’re ready to leave.

      1. user_loser*

        Thanks Product Person. But we have no voicemails. If you can’t reach somebody for hours, you simply waste hours. You can’t leave a message.

        Your advice is actually good, but I’ve been cooperative as much as it’s possible really. I always involved them in decisions etc. I went to great lengths to include them – some of them acknowledged that and I have emails in my mailbox telling me “You are so different, I love the way the things get done now, it’s so better now than it was before you came”. But some don’t want things to change and there’s no way to make someone love you if they don’t feel like it.

        Btw. in this case my mistake was being “too accommodating”, not “not enough accommodating”. I was so accommodating at the beginning that some people started to see me as weak and now they behave the way they behave.

        1. Product person*

          I think you’re missing the point, user_loser. The solution has nothing to do with being cooperative or more or less accommodating, or about peo “make someone love you”. It’s about aligning perception with reality to show that you’re very polite and communicate clearly why you need what you’re asking for, exposing the complaints as lies.

          But we have no voicemails. If you can’t reach somebody for hours, you simply waste hours. You can’t leave a message.

          The suggestion to send a very polite and respectful email after an unanswered call stands. Perhaps you can create a checklist so that your email is clear on the following:

          – What you’re asking of the recipient.
          – When the information is due.
          – Why they are the right person to provide it.
          – Why it’s important (for the company, or someone above you) that the request is fulfilled.

          Then, if your boss complains to you that people are saying you’re rude and lack communication skills, you can pull up these emails and say, “Can you please help me understand where I’ve been rude here? Where I wasn’t clear about the request? I’d really like to improve, but without more specific direction about what I’m doing wrong, I won’t be able to.”

          1. user_loser*

            “Then, if your boss complains to you that people are saying you’re rude and lack communication skills, you can pull up these emails and say, “Can you please help me understand where I’ve been rude here? Where I wasn’t clear about the request? I’d really like to improve, but without more specific direction about what I’m doing wrong, I won’t be able to.”

            I think you are missing this part of my post where I write that my boss reacts aggressively to my proposing to show him emails.

            I don’t need to change the way I write emails to feel comfortable showing him what I wrote. I would be happy to give him access to all my emails for him to show me where I was rude. But that’s the point:

            “When I propose that we go through the complains together (most of the communication is by email and I can prove that I haven’t done anything wrong), he screams that he won’t waste time on that.”

            1. Jennifer Thneed*

              Time to ask for a meeting with your boss’s boss.

              Important question: who hired you? Was it your current boss or someone else? I’ve had managers who “inherited” me be pretty bad because I wasn’t their choice, never mind that I’d been there long enough to be a very useful resource for information.

    4. President Porpoise*

      It’s counterintuitive, but I find it easier to deal with criticism (deserved and undeserved) if I can stop worrying whether I was in the right or not. Most of the time it doesn’t matter – all that matters is the perception. So, your boss perceives you as a poor communicator and your coworkers perceive you as rude. Being defensive cannot help you with that. And, in truth, if someone doesn’t like you anyway and they receive an email that could potentially be read as insulting or cold, they’re not going to give you the benefit of the doubt unfortunately.

      So, call as often as you can instead of using email. Be warm and friendly, even if you have to fake it. Talk to your boss to see if you can take some customer service training specific to effective communication. Show that you’re taking this seriously and that you want to improve. Change perception.

      1. user_loser*

        But they don’t receive mails that can be perceived as “insulting or cold” from me.

        Instead, I do receive such emails from them.

        I’m not in customer service. And at my previous jobs, I was praised for excellent communication skills in every performance review.

        1. President Porpoise*

          Again, don’t worry about whether you deserve their criticism. Try to improve anyway – there’s room for everyone to do that.

          Also, everyone is always in customer service. Your coworkers are internal customers, of a sort, and the same basic principles should be applied to them.

          1. user_loser*

            A course won’t change the fact that I need information from some people and need to request it either by phone or by mail. I don’t work in a 10-person company but in a huge one, with many offices. It’s not possible to go and chat with all the people I need something from.

            I’m all for self-improvement, but I’m currently in a situation when I contact people many times very politely and don’t get any reaction. Then I write “hey, could we please think about how to communicate a bit more regularly in the future since now this doesn’t seem to be working that well. Is it any particular time I could reach you? Any particular channel?” and as a response, I get told I’m rude and I should work on my communication skills.

            And as I write above: In this case, my mistake was being “too accommodating”, not “not enough accommodating”. I was so accommodating at the beginning that some people started to see me as weak and now they behave the way they behave. A course won’t help with that. Actually, the opposite is true. I don’t want to let others think that I acknowledge lacking comms skills, because I don’t. It’s the only job I’ve had so far, in which I’ve been screamed at, repeatedly. I’ve gone to great lengths to be the most accommodating person ever when I joined. This didn’t work. Strategies that don’t work should be changed. Me taking a course on communication would be a continuation of my accommodating strategy which resulted disastrous.

            1. Smarty Boots*

              You’re missing PresPorpoise’s very good point. You need to try to get your manager to see you differently. If you ask her for a people skills type training course, it’s not because you NEED it to improve your skills, it’s because you’re showing that you’re taking your managers criticism seriously. (And frankly, just about everyone can benefit from such a course.) Taking a course like that does not = OMG, everyone thinks I don’t know how to communicate. You may think so, but it’s not rue.

              I have been in just your position, where people deliberately did not respond to questions I needed answered or did not do work that I needed to get my own work done. It’s incredibly frustrating. It is really hard not to say to yourself, I’ve been too nice and this is what I get for it, so now I’m just going to say F U. That is NOT going to work. Particularly since you have already gotten evidence from other colleagues that your accommodating style does work.

              As a side note, if this workplace is not a good fit, start looking for another job.

            2. President Porpoise*

              Yes, Smarty Boots gets what I’m saying. It doesn’t matter if you are actually good at communication if you’re perceived as unhelpful, rude, defensive, etc. This is how your boss and some coworkers see you, so don’t double down and keep doing what you’re doing. Be humble and SHOW your boss and your coworkers that you are adjusting your communication style to fit their needs. You can adjust your style to fit specific individuals, and you should. Keep doing what you’re doing with those that have shown that they are happy with that approach, but you need to make clear and obvious changes to the way you communicate with the Boss and your problem internal customers. Things like requesting training show you’re serious about receiving the feedback you’re getting.

              1. Argh!*

                Learning better communication skills won’t help when the people you communicate are terrible communicators who have normalized their toxic style.

                A course in abnormal psychology might be a better use of your time!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You are being set up to fail.

      Any chance that you are a woman and the people he stands up for are men?

      You are in a large company, perhaps you can find a way to get outsiders involved in this mix, such as HR.

      Can you look for a transfer to another department?

      I suspect that people hate your boss and are targeting him through you. They avoid you because they know eventually he will look bad. Look around, do you have a friend in the place, someone who is a got-your-back type person? Maybe people are trying to tell you something is Rotten in Denmark here and you skipped by it? Eyes wide open, look at everyone with fresh eyes, do you notice an ally that you have not noticed before?

      1. user_loser*

        Thanks, Not So NewReader.

        Yes, I’m a woman, my boss is a man and most people he likes and stands up for are men.

        I was trying to get a transfer as there is an interesting opening elsewhere in the company. When I told my boss he told me he would never recommend me and thinks I’m unsuitable for working at our company since I dramatically lack communication skills and he sees me as an underperformer.

        A fun fact is that I got very positive opinions about my work from high managers in other departments. My own boss was visibly upset because of this positive feedback however and he made it clear he would sabotage my transfer.

        It’s a depressing situation for me since I’ve always been a good employee and got excellent reviews at my previous jobs. Most of my previous reviews stressed my communication skills and ability to find a common language with everybody. And I find it important to do my best and excel at what I’m doing. I’m not a person who doesn’t care about the quality of her work.

        1. Binky*

          Can you go talk to the managers from other departments that like your work, to see if they have a position open? Cause your boss sucks and isn’t going to change. But if the other manager is above Terrible Boss in the hierarchy maybe his sabotage won’t work? You could also treat one of those managers as a mentor – and see if they’ll help you either deal with Terrible Boss or find a new job.

          It sounds like you’re also dealing with health effects from all the awfulness, so you might want to look into gathering the resources to quit without a new job lined up (or take FMLA if you’d qualify). This job isn’t worth your health.

        2. Argh!*

          I was going to guess that too. I am in the same situation, but my boss is a mousy cowardly woman. She relates complaints about me anonymously, but I have been able to trace most of them back to specific people. All of them blue-eyed white men, and our workplace is 50/50.

          My boss has even used the sexist term “abrasive” yet she can’t cite anything I’ve said or done that really deserves that term. She also calls my communication style “unproductive” even though I get more done than other people. Apparently she believes my job duties include letting lazy men get away with laziness and letting stupid men think they’re smart.

          I have had ZERO success with her, and her boss is even worse. I have attempted to file an EEO complaint but I didn’t have enough details. You don’t have to raise your voice to be a bully. This is a toxic work culture that’s bigger than just my relationship with my boss, and it sounds like you’re stuck in the same situation.

          My only technique, and I hate myself for doing it, is to rat out as many other people as I can, especially my boss’s pets. My boss apparently trusts rumor to judge me rather than spending actual time with me or examining my work (she nitpicks some things and never looks at others, including those that were my goal accomplishments for the year!).

          So… I am playing their game and I actually feel better than I did before I started that. I don’t feel like a victim. I’m a shark in a shark tank. I used to work in a really friendly, warm, genuine workplace with just a few obvious jerks.

          p.s. any chance you are an East Coaster working in the Midwest?

        4. Ender*

          Do you actually need a recommendation from your boss to apply? Is that an official rule? If not then apply anyway and just put one of the managers you get on well with as a reference.

          If they do have that official rule then here is what I think you should do In the following order:

          Ask some of the managers you have a good rapport with if they would recommend you for the other position if you get permission from HR to use them. I’m assuming they’ll say yes. If they ask why (and only if they ask) tell them you have a personality conflict with your boss and you don’t get on well with him and you don’t think he would give a fair reference.

          Contact HR. Tell them the entire situation. Tell them you have the many emails that prove you are not being rude and the others are, but that your boss screams at you every time you try to show him them. Tell them you want to apply for the position in the other department but your boss has told you he won’t recommend you, but that you have multiple other managers in other departments that you’ve worked closely with who are willing to recommend you. Ask them if you can please apply for the position using a different reference to your boss.

          If they refuse then say you want to make an official complaint about bullying. If they still refuse, start the complaints process because this absolutely is bullying.

          If you don’t manage to get your transfer, and if the bullying complaint/investigation doesn’t change his behaviour, then I honestly think you should just quit. I know you haven’t managed to find a job in your specialist field, but there must be something else you can do that would pay the bills while you continue looking for a job in your field. You’d be much happier working as a temp and job searching in the evenings than in this job.

      2. user_loser*

        And: I know “something is Rotten in Denmark”.

        Another colleague was subject to the same kind of unfounded criticism and then fired by the boss. For example, exactly the same people who now complain about “my communication skills”, told our boss back then that the colleague had screamed at them at a meeting, which was why they didn’t want to attend any more meetings with him. I attended these occasions on which the colleague “screamed” and they definitely didn’t scream at anybody. I didn’t even like the colleague, but they didn’t scream at anybody.

        But it didn’t matter. Our boss excluded this colleague from our meetings and then fired. I was the good guy back then. Now the colleague is out so I’m targeted.

        1. RVA Cat*

          It sounds like your boss is a bully who needs to have a victim. The problem isn’t you, it’s him and a disfunctional culture that enables him.
          Could it be that people are ignoring you because they know you are his Designated Victim and they don’t want to risk him targeting *them* if they dare be nice to you? This is so middle school but unfortunately it wouldn’t surprise me.

    6. Close Bracket*

      I am really, really sorry. I have been in almost exactly your situation. I actually did not survive. I was forced out. One thing that kept me sane-ish was attending a local vipassana meditation session and leaving the house to do things around other people. I also didn’t have friends or family nearby, and I was pretty isolated at work- I could go for multiple days without an in person conversation there (which makes me wonder how they managed to accumulate so many complaints about me). Social dance (swing, salsa), professional events, and just going out and sitting in a coffee house gave me the human contact I needed.

      I hope this gets better.

    7. valentine*

      Your manager sounds like he wants you to quit or to keep you in his department so everyone can be miserable together. If there’s no one who’ll do an end run around him and transfer you, you’ll need a new employer.

  19. CopperBoom*

    Feeling a little blue this week. Interviewed for an amazing position, and they hired an intern from last year (making me about 10 years older than that person). Sigh. It’s making me question a lot of things in regards to my career. How do you pick yourself up after a setback?

    1. SleepyInSeattle*

      I’m sorry to hear that. Been there!

      On the hiring side, I’ve occasionally hired a less experienced person over a more experienced and qualified candidate because during the interview process we determined that the role was actually more jr. than we originally thought. Or when I knew that the growth potential was going to be very limited for an extended period of time and I didn’t want to frustrate an employee who I knew would be ready to grow the job sooner rather than later. There are lots of things that can go into a decision like that that aren’t any reflection of your talents and abilities. Good luck in your job search!

    2. Bea*

      Was this internal?? It sounds like it since you know it’s an intern and their age etc.

      In that case it could be an issue that your company doesn’t want to “lose” you in your position now. Which is a bad process to follow but it’s not a “you” thing. So it may tilt your natural instinct to take it personally like a younger person is more qualified or what have you.

      Don’t let this detour you from trying again. Maybe you’ll have up look for a different company to grow with.

      1. CopperBoom*

        Kinda internal? My industry has many freelancers and very few full-time positions. So I’ve worked with all involved (those I interviewed with, and the intern ultimately hired). I’m trying to remind myself that the positions are so few, it would be impossible to hire all the qualified people. Thank you for your response!

        1. Bea*

          Ah contracting! That makes sense now. I’m willing to bet it’s because the former intern starts out at the lowest end of the salary and your skills would cost them more :( It’s the difficult part of being TOO GOOD at your job, they’re scared that they have to pay for those skills up front.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      A pint of coconut milk ice cream seems to make the world okay for a moment.

      That’s not too helpful though.

      In the specific situation you are talking about here, I would figure they did not want to pay higher wages. For whatever reason they assumed the younger person would be cheaper than me.

      Get yourself busy. Pick something you will have success at. For myself after a setback like this I can figure on being successful at scrubbing the bathroom from ceiling to floor. So I go do it. It gives me back some sense of success/completion. Then I get busy on the next thing- be it another home project or more job hunting.

      And I get some extra sleep. Because this stuff can leave a person feeling pretty beat-up.
      Very sorry about your bad news.

      1. CopperBoom*

        The pay was non-negotiable from the start (it would be considered low for many people, but it was a significant raise over my current job). Love your suggestions of finding something to be successful at! And some treat yo’ self style indulgences.

    4. OhGee*

      I’ve been through this situation (I am very qualified for a mid-career job, have a good interview, they hire someone who is 2 years out of school with little to no experience) several times. I’ve also lost out to people with decades *more* experience than me, which just goes to show there’s no telling what an organization really wants! I usually vent about it to friends, some of whom have been through the same thing…and read AAM, because the experiences here make me realize that I’m not alone in this.

      1. CopperBoom*

        Preach! My field is largely freelancers, and few full-time positions. So while I have many years of hands on experience, it feels like I’m somewhere in the middle of what they want full-time positions to be (too much experience for the entry level positions, too little for the director levels). I started reading AAM about a year ago and it has been hugely helpful in navigating workplace experiences how to make the most of my somewhat-related-but-ultimately-boring day job. And seeing that things could be so much worse, lol!

    6. Loser*

      I don’t pick myself up after a setback. Wherever I was set back to, I stay there, unhappy. Don’t be like me.

  20. Sheila*

    I have a supervisor (a shift supervisor) that is pressuring me to work full time. I told her that I had a health issue and yet she has still harassed me about it twice after I told her that I would discuss it with our manager or assistant manager if anything changes. She has since completely flipped and started being rude to me and making working with her unbearable. I want to discuss it with the manager, but I don’t want to cause a fuss.

    Does anyone have any advice?

    1. Reba*

      Sorry this is happening! I think you need to tell your manager. You can keep your cool and not cause a fuss, but do use the word “retaliation,” because it is that serious, especially since it touches on health, it could have a flavor of disability discrimination. (Not saying that I think you have a case of illegal discrimination on those grounds — I am very very far from being a lawyer — just that a good manager would want to be alerted to this.)

      What about something like, “Manager, I want to let you know that Supervisor has been treating me terribly ever since I declined to take more hours, like [example of rudeness or, better, example of impeding your work]. You know the reasons for my schedule (if that is true, if you know it is reasonable and safe to disclose this to them). How would you like me to handle it if she continues to retaliate against me for this issue?”

    2. MuseumChick*

      You are not causing a fuss. She is the the one causing drama by being unprofessional.

      I agree with Reba, use the word retaliation. Maybe something like “Jane has been pressuring me to work full time even after I’ve explain my health prevents that. Since then she has been retaliating by (insert behaviors).”

    3. WellRed*

      I am a big proponent of just saying, “sorry, I am not available to work more hours.” It doesn’t matter whether it’s health, school schedule, family responsibilities or a Netflix marathon.
      But yeah, agreed it’s time to kick this up the chain. Your supervisor is wrong and childish.

      1. Sheila*

        The annoying thing is, I once made a joke about her flirting with a customer, and she went to him and said I was sexually harassing her, so I feel like he may think I am retaliating against her. He gave me a verbal warning, but I think he too thought that one comment was not sexual harassment.

        1. Bea*

          He shouldn’t think it’s retaliation. She’s acting out towards you and it’s appropriate to escalate it. She’s not nature enough to be a lead, report everything she does since she’s not to be trusted to handle things correctly.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like she is a person who needs to hear a flat out no.
      If you say “No. but if anything changes I will talk with the bosses” what she hears is “I will probably do this in a few weeks”.
      She could be one of these people that need total stunning clarity or she just does not get what is being said.

      Go to your manager and ask if is it a big deal for you to just work part time. Listen to his answer. Tell him that Jane seems to think it’s a problem. Listen to his answer to this also. If he says it’s no problem, then you can go back to Jane and her that, you checked with the boss and it’s not a problem.

    5. LGC*

      Document (both your illness and her harassment) and go to your manager. I wouldn’t go at them with the full documentation just yet, but have that as backup if you need it.

      I say that because I think it is worth causing a fuss. Trust me – she’s probably pressed for hours (I know the feeling), but the answer to that isn’t to force her employees to significantly alter their work agreements and then snipe at them when they say it’s for their health. That’s something she needs to escalate.

      Even outside of that, the fact that she’s mistreating you is reason enough to go over her head. I don’t say that lightly – I get annoyed when my employees go over my head to my boss – but this is serious enough where it’s warranted. I’m not saying that she’s creating a hostile work environment (which is a legal phrase), but the fact that she’s being hostile to you in your work environment is bad enough on its own.

      But also, the manager and assistant manager might be jerks about it and take her side (you should work FT even if you don’t feel like you can). That’s why I’d suggest protecting yourself beforehand. I don’t know your job, but I’d say assume the best and prepare for the worst.

  21. Neurotic Questioner*

    I’m in the final stages of interviewing for a company that seems amazing, but only has meh reviews on Glassdoor. If I do get an offer, I’d really like to make sure it’s a good fit before I sign on. A few people at the company I used to work for are there now, but I don’t know them (old company was massive).

    Would it be weird to email my former manager to ask if she has any impression of the company? We still have a pretty good relationship and she’s lovely and really well connected so she’s probably heard of them. She has been a mentor to me in the past so generally I wouldn’t feel weird about reaching out, but since this is technically a competitor (both are in a special area of publishing) I’m not sure if it would be inappropriate to send a message where essentially the subtext boils down to “Hey, remember how I left your my position with you a few years ago? Now I’m interviewing for a similar job at a competitor organization — got any gossip?”

    Am I overthinking?

    1. SleepyInSeattle*

      That kind of thing is pretty common if you have a good relationship. I’ve shared similar feedback many times. But know that her impression is not going to be the whole truth. I always couch it pretty heavily.

      My company has pretty awful glassdoor reviews because we’re small, and 3 or 4 people all reviewed it when we were going through some major transitions with a very divisive person taking on a sr. leadership role. She didn’t last long and I’m sure the reviews would be much more positive now but people don’t really feel compelled o go write good stuff when things are going well in the same way they do when things are going poorly. I wouldn’t put a ton of weight on it unless it got very consistent negative reviews over a period of time.

    2. anonymoushiker*

      If she’s mentored you in the past and is generally a decent understanding person, she should be happy to help out. She’s not the organization she works for and should understand that you have a career to manage too.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Email her asking for a phone call (or meet for coffee) to talk about the new company. She might not want to put anything in writing.

  22. SL*

    I’m working on transitioning into an adjacent career path and I reached out (through email) to a few people who do this kind of work to see if I could ask them questions about what they did. The work is very specialized and there are only a handful of people who do this kind of work in the country, so the people I reached out to were strangers. I got one reply and two other people didn’t reply. Is there any way to politely follow up with the no-reply’s and see if they might have just missed my email? How would I word an email like that? Or should I just let it go and not bother following up?

    2. soupmonger*

      Drop it. People are busy, and it takes time to compose replies to emails like the one you’re sending. And in my experience of receiving emails like yours (to which I have replied) is that there’s not even a ‘thank you’ for taking the time to respond.

      1. SL*

        Yeah I kind of suspected that was going to be the advice I got, but was hoping otherwise. On another note, it’s really shitty that people haven’t even bothered to thank you.

  23. KatieKate*

    I posted about my phone interview two weeks ago, and in the meantime I had a first interview this week AND already got called back for a second interview! Working on scheduling it now!! *excited flailing*

  24. Spegasi*

    Howdy!
    I just went on an interview for a teaching position at a high school. I hope to be called back soon and then I have to give a sample class to see how I handle groups. Any teachers here who might be able to offer some advice? Also, I hear this particular class is particularly troublesome, any advice for dealing with 15 year old girls who really don’t want to spend an hour in history class?

    1. Gaia*

      So this is just general history teaching advise (hi! History major who hated high school history class, here!):

      Don’t make it about memorizing names, dates, battles. If they don’t know the date the Civil War ended but know it was after the Emancipation Proclamation and before the Industrial Revolution, that’s fine as long as they also know what it was like for people living then and what the reasons behind it were (both political, modern ideas, and historical ideas). Use diaries, letters, interviews. Help them understand history from the perspective of the people living it.

      History is consistently listed as the most disliked topic in US schools except in those schools that take this approach. It was this approach that made me love history. You have the ability to do that for these kids!

      2. Spegasi*

        I like the idea of letting them deal with primary sources (at least very basic ones) and foregoing most dates and maybe focus on a couple of big ones.

        1. Gaia*

          Certainly dates are important, but some people are just absolutely terrible at rote memorization and more important than dates is context.

          Good luck!

        2. Annie Moose*

          The way my favorite history professor in college put it is that he cared we knew what order things happened in/what stuff was happening at the same time, not the precise date when it actually happened. If we knew Event A happened before (and helped cause) Event B, that was what he felt was important.

      3. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

        I love history. I am particularly fond of the Civil War. I could not tell you what years it happened.

        Timelines were great. We started out with about ten feet of paper with just dates on it and put everything we were learning about on it. With pictures. Though maybe that’s a little young?

    2. blackcat*

      Former high school teacher, here.

      Definitely make it active. Have two plans, one to use if it’s possible to get them out of their seats. If it’s an option, make it about something outside the regular curriculum that might be extra interesting.

      1. Spegasi*

        I was thinking to do a bit of active participation. One of my high school teachers had a small ball he would toss at you to give you a turn to talk. When I was in school I often found that a little bit of discussion went a long way and some small competitions for extra points or a test waive went a long way. I just hope the same its true 10 years later.

        1. blackcat*

          Oof, that’s not what I would call active participation. That’s what I would call lecture +.

          I’m thinking more along the lines of give different groups something to research/make an argument about. You have an hour, right? That’s a good amount of time. Provide resources and set up a debate. Doesn’t have to be controversial or anything.

          Ex: Tell three groups of students that you are trying to set up a new settlement. One group gets a paper with a preface that farming is super important. Another gets a preface that defense is super important. Another get something that’s like good views of the stars matter for X religious ceremony or trade is important. (Something important to old societies. I’m a scientist not a historian.) Give them all some data on maps about a fictitious land. Don’t tell the groups that the others have different assumptions. Give groups 20 minutes to develop an argument about where the settlement should be then present to the class for 5 minutes. When disagreements ensues, have a discussion about how different people in a society have different wants/needs/etc, ask if there’s a reasonable middle ground.

          Or give students a bunch of paintings and ask them to figure out which ones seem to be from the same time period.

          Something active! Anything active! Don’t just ask them questions. Make them *do* something.

          1. blackcat*

            And for the record, this is pedagogically better and will help classroom management.

            To divide groups, have students count off numbers. Or divide the alphabet. Draw color paper out of a hat. Do not let them choose their own groups.

            1. Spegasi*

              Oh I know I shouldn’t let them decide groups, mostly cause I was that awful student who messed around when I was left with my friends but somehow managed to get good grades.

          2. Spegasi*

            Oh I specialized in art history and would love to bring in something like that to class. I also like the debate aspect, I do think its important to be able to make an argument and defend it properly which isn’t something you are always taught.

            1. blackcat*

              Then do that! Use your specialty!

              You do not have to lecture. At. All. Not one bit. You can just do an activity, where you will circulate among groups and then moderate full group discussion.

    3. Dr. KMnO4*

      I’m a STEM teacher, but I think I have a few tips that might help
      1. Make your demo class interactive. There is a push in education to make learning more student-centered, so it’s very likely that the administrators want to see you doing more than just lecturing.
      2. Be kind but firm. You want to maintain control of the class without being too heavy-handed. Unless it’s absolutely necessary, don’t try to talk/yell over the students. If you need to get their attention I’ve found saying, “Okay everyone” and then going silent works wonders. The disapproving look is a helpful tool as well. Generally students know when they are doing/saying something they shouldn’t. Giving them a look shows them that you realize it too, and should be your first step in getting the behavior to change. Not all students respond only to a look, but it’s a good place to start.
      3. Don’t be dismissive of your students. If they say/ask something inappropriate then say (in a calm, level tone), “That was inappropriate”, and move on. Don’t roll your eyes at them or take a tone that suggests that you think what they are saying/asking is stupid or not worth hearing. It might well be, but your job is to treat them with respect at all times. If they think you don’t respect them they will definitely not respect you.
      4. Think about why they probably don’t want to spend an hour in history class. When I was a 15 year old girl I didn’t much care for history class because we only ever read things written by white men and pretty much exclusively about white men. If the entire class is girls then definitely try to bring in sources by or about women at the time. Also, my experience with history was that it was a class about memorizing useless information. Even in my AP history class we didn’t do as much critical thinking as we could (should, perhaps) have done. The question running through the minds of your students is likely something along the lines of, “Why do I need to learn this? I’m never going to use it.” And they’re probably right that they won’t use information like the date of Antietam, or how many troops died there. But they will use skills that you can teach them. You might want to orient your class around making connections between things that have happened in the past and things that are happening today. Don’t just make it seem like all they’ll have to do is memorize.
      5. Overprepare. Bring more material than you think you’d ever get through in an hour. Until you’ve taught something a dozen times you don’t really know how long the content will take to get through. And even then you can be surprised. The last thing you want is to run out of material 30 mins in.
      6. Start and end the class with mini reviews. Either entrance questions for them to think about as they’re settling in, or just opening the class with a discussion of what you (would have) covered the previous day. And ending class with a recap, or mini-quiz, is a great way to tie things together.
      7. Take things in stride. Do your best to present a calm and collected demeanor at all times. This is true when you’re teaching but especially important when it’s part of an interview. Don’t let the students get under your skin. If they’re a troublesome class then they will try to, but don’t rise to the bait. I once told a student to put their phone away during lab, and she turned to me and said, “Ms. KMnO4, you look sloppy as f***”. I don’t remember my exact response, but it was calm and gave her no satisfaction. I wrote her up and called her mom in for a conference, so there were consequences, but I didn’t lose my cool in the moment.

      Tl;dr – make your class interactive, be respectful, don’t let them rattle you, and make history appealing to them

      1. Spegasi*

        Oh I love all your suggestions. I was thinking that if I do get the job (fingers crossed!) I would like to orient the class a bit towards source criticism. Like learning to question whether something is true based on the source of the information, what interests the author might have had and why the context of a source matters.

        One concern I have is that I look pretty young, so while I’m older by almost 11 years I’m afraid they won’t respect me as much. I was thinking that trying to show some empathy while remaining calm and a bit stern might do the trick? Like I can understand why they would rather be doing other things but as long as they turn in their work, do some studying for their tests and aren’t too distruptive I won’t be too harsh on them. Of course, if they refuse to do the bare minimun I would be tougher.

        1. blackcat*

          Source criticism is great!
          Provide multiple primary sources showing different perspectives on the same event. Doesn’t matter what event! I’d steer clear of current events to avoid political issues (fine while teaching, not file while interviewing). Have them try to figure out what “actually” happened.

        2. Double A*

          Yes, but also don’t apologize for what you’re teaching. I wouldn’t even say anything like, “I know you’d rather be X” because that’s patronizing and also they will take cues from you about how interested they should be in this stuff. If you act like it’s not the most interesting thing they could be learning, they’ll follow that lead and lap you by a mile.

          Instead, explain why it connects to their lives. I’m an English teacher, so when we’re finding evidence for essays, i connect it to the way other disciplines use evidence, and how they use evidence in their own arguments, say to try to convince their parents or friends of something.

          Also, history is super relevant– you can definitely find some way to connect what you’re teaching to contemporary events. That would even be part of your lesson or long term objective, to explain how the events of X are still playing out today.

        3. Smarty Boots*

          A nice way to end is with a stop light reflection:green = I totally got this, yellow = hmm, I’m not sure, I have questions, and red = whuuuuut? I don’t understand. Kids write a sentence or so for each color.

          Or, if that feels too cheesy for 15 year old girls (weirdly, college students love it. Maybe they are old enough to enjoy the cheese), a short written reflection on 1. What I know, 2. What I don’t understand, 3.questions I have.

          Or, a couple sentences on how what I learned today connects to what we learned in class last week.

          Or, if you use a primary text, say a woman’s or girls diary: pretend you are the author and write the next entry.

          And…probably you already do this, but be sure to circulate through the room. It’s a great way to “do discipline” — stand near the biggest misbehaver, moving closer if she doesn’t stop. Literally lean against the back of her seat if need be. Reach over and, without saying anything, close her laptop or take her phone and set it facedown on the table.

        4. Gaia*

          One of my favorite topics is public history focused on the history of statues. What does it mean when a horse has one leg in the air and what message is that meant to send to society? What do the statues erected say about a culture at a given time. Is that message factually accurate? Etc, etc, etc. Teens will usually love it because it is all abut questioning authority and the accepted narrative.

        5. Dr. KMnO4*

          I also look young for my age, so I understand your concern. Empathizing with them while also staying calm and enforcing standards is a great way to approach things. They will appreciate and respect you more if you show them that you believe they can succeed, want them to do well, and understand why they aren’t exactly excited about your class.

          I would also say, pick your battles carefully. When I was a student teacher I called on everyone at least once a week. Initially I had one student who never answered when I called on her. I would give her a minute to possibly answer, then when she didn’t I would say, “Anyone want to give [student] a hand?”. I didn’t make a big deal out of it, or try to force her to answer me. By the end of the year she was answering my questions. I think that since I didn’t turn it into a power struggle she was able to get comfortable with me eventually.

          If you are into music, there’s a metal band called Sabaton that sings about history. I’ve actually learned a lot more about history recently because I’m interested in their songs and I go look up the people/events they are singing about. You might want to check them out.

        6. Smarty Boots*

          Just to add, re your last couple of sentences about empathy/not being too harsh. Do not do this at your sample class, and do NOT do this if you get the job. You can be friendly, but you’re not their friend. You’re not there to say, Its ok as long as you’re not too disruptive and do some studying for tests. You’re there to challenge them and help them learn to think. Also, even though you think that you look younger (and to people your age and older, you do) — trust me, the students do not think you look that young. Dr KM’s advice above to kind but firm is spot on.

          1. Spegasi*

            Alright, I’ll take it all into consideration. But also when I say I look young I mean as in a month ago a high school kid hit on me at the mall, but for my peace of mind I hope it was because I wasn’t wearing any make up and wearing a Batman tshirt.

          2. blackcat*

            “the students do not think you look that young.”

            For realz. One parent saw me as I was helping load the bus for the beginning of the school year trip. I was in casual clothes. He asked his son who the “pretty new girl” was (ick). Kid’s eyes bugged out and he said, “That’s my physics teacher.”

            Several students thought I was 30+ when I was a young-looking 22. When one teacher wished me happy birthday and a student asked my age, he didn’t believe my answer until I showed him my ID. Parents struggled to believe I was older than their children.

        7. Ender*

          I think if you look young you can use that to connect with them. If you pick a bunch of young women from history who were awesome and make a PowerPoint about them on your first day you will get them interested. I’m thinking Sacagawea, Harriet Tubman, Sophie Scholl, etc. For every period in history you are teaching about Im guessing you can find and awesome young woman to do a project on.

          I would have probably been a lot more interested in history if we had done that!

    4. disney+coffee*

      Hi! Not a teacher, but when I was in high school, I was actually a student in a number of sample classes (I graduated in 2014). I always appreciated it when the teacher really seemed to respect us and ask us our opinion and our take on the material. That being said, it was always really obvious when someone was changing their personality trying to be “cool” just to keep our attention, so I would definitely recommend to be 100% genuine in that sense.
      I would also really avoid gimmicks and one-time things. In one of these mock classes, we were learning about Mesopotamia and the teacher brought in clay and sticks so that we could write in cuneiform. Yeah, it was fun to do something other than sit and listen but it was also really obvious that this was not an everyday sort of thing. We ended up learning basically nothing about Mesopotamia because the teacher spent all his time talking about cuneiform trying to tie in the activity. So it’s about finding that balance of doing something engaging and interesting, without it being too far from an everyday class.
      In terms of material, most schools really heavily cover up until WWII, but nothing after that. I think it can be hard to keep a group’s attention if you’re going over something they’ve seen how many times before. If you have the chance to choose the time that you’re teaching, maybe do something on the 50’s, 60’s, or 70’s and that’ll keep their attention longer simply because it’s something they probably haven’t seen before. In one class, we watched a few relevant SNL videos and then talked about the social commentary and the contrasting opinions of the time. Seven years later, I still remember that discussion because it was engaging and funny, yet it allowed us to come to our own conclusions about the topics.

    5. Traveling Teacher*

      You’ve got a lot of great ideas here, and I’m an EFL teacher, so my tips lean more towards “managing the unknown” re: timing. These are the top tips I give any new teachers because they help to manage both the students and your own behavior, especially if you’re feeling rushed or nervous. Our unconscious biases about the amount of time something “should” take a student are often unrealistic, causing a lot of unnecessary misunderstandings and missed learning opportunities.

      1. Write an agenda on the board, somewhere on the side. You can make it really obvious or use intriguing titles for your activities (Warning: using intriguing titles only works if your activity is, in fact, intriguing!). As you finish tasks, cross them off or erase them. For the students who are bursting to escape, this works as a calming mechanism. For you, it’s a quick visual reminder of what you still have to accomplish in the lesson, and you can pick up or slow things down accordingly.

      2. When you ask a question, make sure you wait at least 10 seconds before you begin speaking again to give the students time to process (I do 20 seconds with a new group because they’re EFL). Hopefully you will have practiced this during practicums and student teaching, but it’s so easy to forget if you’re feeling nervous. If you have a class with one or two “star” participators or even for a more complicated question, give the class exactly one minute to think and write down an answer. For students who hang back or need extra time to think, this can be a game changer in getting them to participate or offer an answer beyond “Uh, I don’t know.”

      3. When you give a time for an activity, also write the time on the board. For a 15 minute activity, write “15” plus the end time on the board: “10:20.” Update every 5 minutes, both written and verbal, and give a one minute warning at the end. This is an excellent “soft” way of putting pressure on them to complete their activity and on you to make sure things keep moving or adjust your expectations of the activity if things don’t go as planned.

      Then these are all about you and the preparations:

      4. Practice! Practice every piece of the lesson, no matter how routine it may seem. Time it. See how long that one hour lesson really takes to teach and adjust your plans from there.

      5. Always bring extra materials, activities, and games. Plan activities that have only a couple of steps to explain for this class. Double check your packing for your main lesson materials. If an activity doesn’t work or the lesson is tanking, you can confidently switch.

      6. Make sure you can do an hour with no technological support, even if you’ve been guaranteed a SmartBoard with all the bells and whistles. Always best to prepare for the worst! Also, wouldn’t it be terrible to waste 10 minutes trying to get your amazing, lesson-dependent powerpoint to work?

      7. When concepting your lesson, can you draw on something you’ve previously planned or tested? Either a cool learning activity you’ve done before, or subject matter that you have down cold, something along those lines. Just like planning a dinner party, pick one new thing to try plus the things you know you can already do well…

      Also, for your situation with the 15 year olds, can you ask a few friends to be a “test” class for you? Acting like 15 year olds, being as annoyed and annoying as possible, would be a fun way to work out the lesson on a real group of people. In my experience, friends love to do this, especially teacher friends. Great stress release and great feedback!

      If you can stand it: film it! Either your practice run-throughs alone or with friends. You’ll pick up on any strange gestures you make repetitively while speaking and see if you’re turning your back to the group often or other off-putting habits.

      Good luck!

    6. tangerineRose*

      There are a lot of places that do reenactments of various parts of history, some about battles, but others about what life was like in different times – some of these must be online, right? Showing the kids what things were really like where they can actually see it might make it more real for them.

      Kids might be more interested in learning about some specific people who lived in the time period and what their lives were like.

      I am not an expert on history, but I know enough about it to have felt annoyed by many of my history classes in school.

      History is generally all of the dramatic things that happened in the past – history now was the front page news of the day. It should be exciting or at least interesting, but most of the history classes I took were boring.

    7. Marshmallow*

      Sorry to be blunt (this will probably get removed for being unkind) but shouldn’t you already have some ideas on this from your teacher training?

    8. Indie*

      1) Develop an awesome, confident poker face. Greet them at the door with it. Kids don’t want an unsure leader, so keep your showface on and while it might get stern, or raise an eyebrow never let it slip off.
      2) Seating plans are your friend. Split up friendships and allies and get everyone comfortable working with anyone. Its also easier to learn names by referring to said plan. Mark out your territory in other ways too with wall displays etc.
      3) Break the ice with activities or introductions. Tell them something about yourself and encourage them to do the same. Its easy to disobey a stranger.
      4) Make it contraversial and hook them with debates. Put up a piece of historical propaganda or a contraversial question and ask for people’s responses. If you want to play this safe/keep the interruptions to a minimum have them respond via Post It and use the responses to address them and ask them questions.
      5) Give warnings in an even tone before consequences but follow through with whatever school behaviour policy is consistently. Use detentions to (genuinely) ask ‘what’s going on’? The answers may surprise you.
      6) Be still. Teachers like actors have to learn to not fidget and where to put their hands. When they are kicking off it can be outrageously confident to just freeze and keep looking at your watch for how many minutes they are losing from break time.

  25. sweet potatoes*

    Annual inventory (of our 1500 sq meter warehouse that is literally above capacity) was just announced for next Friday. I’m literally crying.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      Sorry!
      Ask about inventory tolerances, meaning “what’s close enough?” One manager at my work stayed overnight re-counting hundreds of tiny little parts, because her count did not precisely match a previous count. Turned out we had a +/- 5 % inventory allowance on those tiny parts, so her overnight stay at work was for naught!
      Stay well and try to survive!

  26. Meems*

    Anyone have advice on networking, particularly if you are looking to move to a city where you don’t know anyone? I’ve been trying to use all the AAM advice as well as what has worked for me in the past, but I feel stuck. Perhaps it’s because I got laid off for the first time. I had expected that would make things much easier (eg no need to hide my search from current employer), but I’m still struggling on the best way to do this. Any advice (or just encouragement about the job hunt) would be much appreciated.

    1. irene adler*

      Find the local chapter of the professional organization in your field. Contact them and arrange to attend their monthly meetings. Also ask about their networking opportunities. Tell them your situation. Ask for their advice.

    2. Violaine*

      I just moved to a new area at the end of June due to my husband’s job relocating my family, and found a job easily in my industry through Indeed. They headhunted me, though, and my particular position in healthcare is in demand. I was lucky, in that respect. As for networking.. I’ve done very minimal networking. I’ve been in my role about a month and I’m still adjusting into it, getting to know people and involving myself in collateral projects in addition to training. A friend of mine used Meetup.com pretty extensively when she moved to a new area without knowing anyone. That could be beneficial for you, too. I haven’t, yet, but I’m still settling in. I wish you all the best of luck in your search!

  27. Youth*

    Good news: I’ve got a phone interview next week. It’s my first ever, so any tips are appreciated.

    Bad news: It’s with a company I didn’t actually apply to, and I don’t think I’m super interested in the position. They reached out to me on LinkedIn. Looks like the culture there is similar to the culture here…which is what I’m trying to get away from.

    Guess I’ll find out, though!

    1. Work Wardrobe*

      This will be good practice! I always had my resume and notes in front of me, so I could answer confidently.

      Seriously, I always looked at any interview as a way to try to master the process.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Be ready to answer basic questions – tell me about yourself, why are you interested in this job, etc. Have a quiet place to take the call, practice your answers out loud before hand, keep a glass of water nearby for sips and a notepad to take notes.

      Be ready with a few basic questions to ASK but remember this is probably an HR screen – so “tell me more about the position” and “how would you describe company culture” are fair – more details are good if it’s an actual hiring manager.

      1. Youth*

        I think it’s just an in-house recruiter. Not sure when the actual hiring manager will come into the process. Thanks for the tips!

  28. Frustrated Librarian*

    Our library offers a free, one-on-one career help service that has really taken off, and we are struggling to figure out how to deal with registration now that it’s become super popular.

    Right now we are doing it first-come, first-served via a sign-in sheet kept at the reference desk. My colleagues are putting the sign-in sheet out 30 minutes before the program starts. There are only five available slots per day. After 5+ years of conducting this service in an orderly way with no issues, suddenly over the past few weeks we’ve gotten an explosion of new patrons, who are coming anywhere from one hour to five hours before the program starts, and there’s a free-for-all when the sign-in sheet is put out. Both the librarians who conduct the service and the librarians at the reference desk who keep the list are at the end of their rope with this Walmart-on-Black-Friday type behavior. So are the patrons who actually show up at 2:50 or 2:55 pm for a 3 pm service, and are shut out. And patrons that show up at 10 am to be first and then aren’t are the angriest of all.

    The staff rejected my suggestion to do it by lottery system instead of first-come first-served free-for-all (having anyone who is interested pick numbers out of a hat, or something similar, at 3 pm when it starts), saying it’s too much work. I don’t know what else to suggest.

    I’ve started turning away the super early birds and curtly telling them to come back 15 minutes before the program starts, but none of my colleagues do this. We tried taking advance appointments and it was a disaster; half the appointments didn’t show, another large proportion were late, and we still had walk-ins anxiously waiting for the appointments not to show. Do any other librarians (or anyone else!) have experience managing registration for popular programs? I appreciate any suggestions.

    1. GrapefruitHero*

      Fellow librarian here. Congrats on running such a successful program!!

      Have you tried requiring registration in advance of the program date? When we hold programs that require registrations, we publicize them with a little blurb to call or email to register by the program date. As soon as it’s filled up, we have a waiting list. Folks on the waiting list get called before registration opens for the next session and get “first dibs.” If the program fills up with folks on the waiting list, we’ll advertise the program with something like, “Call to be added to the waiting list of this popular program! You will be contacted as soon as a spot becomes available.”

      Honestly, limiting registration to the day sounds like a huge mess and I would hate it.

      1. Frustrated Librarian*

        Thank you for your kind words. We tried exactly as you said above and results were disastrous. The patrons who registered in advance either didn’t show up at all, or showed up late and got pissed that we saw walk-in ahead of them. We scrapped that after a few weeks because it only made things worse. But thank you.

        1. GrapefruitHero*

          What a tough situation. My only other suggestion would be one I don’t quite agree with but was used at a former workplace for our popular computer classes: require people to register in advance and put down a $5 deposit. They’ll get the money back when they show up. It did cut down on no-shows, but it didn’t sit well with me because we were automatically excluding people who didn’t have $5 to spare.

          1. Hi there!*

            Just to tack on this, a local institution talked about doing this with their preserving family photos workshops. It reduced the number of no-shows as it gave people an inventive to show up on-time. Granted someone wanting career advice may not have the same disposal income as someone wanting to know more about preserving their photographs, but $5 may be the sweet spot. If they show up, they get their money back.

    2. Atlantic Toast Conference*

      If you’re committed to first-come first-served (since the lottery idea got rejected), can you put the sign-up sheet out when the library opens? That seems like a good way to avoid a brawl. It won’t solve your problem of making the program unavailable for people who arrive promptly, but it sounds like maybe that’s unavoidable for now, if you don’t have the resources to serve everyone.

      1. Justme, The OG*

        But if the library opens at 8 and services don’t start until 3, you’re rewarding those who can come in hours ahead of time.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      While the one-on-one service is really nice, are there any ways of making 1 or 2 of the 5 available slots into small group sessions of 3-4 people? Some people need a lot of individual help and some only need general questions answered.

      Other than that, make the sign-in sheet available first thing in the day, and at the start time, you start calling names at the top of the list, if someone isn’t immediately there at the start time, you go to the next person on the list, any walk-ins get added to the end of the list — no exceptions. If those early birds are desperate enough to wait around all day, they can and if they leave and aren’t back, the next one on the list gets the spot. Each day is a new list so it doesn’t get complicated.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      When I worked at the public library (mind you this was over a decade ago) we have free tax service that was similarly popular. We did not offer a sign up sheet for the day of. It was first come first serve; however, if you weren’t seen the first day than your name was added and you those folks were first up for the next day. However, we had more than 5 slots available.

      I really see only two options for this service: Require pre-registration and just deal with no-shows and don’t fill those slots with other people. And if people are more than 15 minutes late to their slot than too bad. That sucks for them, but you have a job to do beyond career counseling.

      Put out the sign up sheet exactly 1 hour early and don’t allow people to sign up earlier than that. You may need to go to your boss and explain that situation. Do they know what is going on? Are they willing to enforce stricter rules?

      Programs can die from their success. If this program has become deeply disruptive to your other patrons, you may need to scale it back or only offer it on specific days when you can run a larger workshop for 20 or 30 people at once.

    5. LilySparrow*

      Our library does advance online reservations, where you are automatically put on a wait list if it’s full, and the wait list cuts off after a reasonable point, it’s just shown as “fully booked, please try again next time.”

      They post all over the place that if you have a reservation, you must check in 5 minutes before the start time, or they will give your seat to the next person on the list. And if you’re on the wait list you must respond when your name is called, or they will pass over you.

      They open check-ins about 20-30 minutes before start time. They do check-in away from the front desk, close to the program rooms. There’s a bit of a crowd at check-in time, but there’s no free-for-all because everyone knows they are just going down the list in order. And everyone stays pretty quiet because they want to hear the names.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Not a librarian, but as a patron I have never seen “Black Friday at Walmart” reactions under this system. I think if chaos is your problem, clear & transparent structure is a good answer.

    6. Persephone Mulberry*

      Not a librarian, but I don’t see how a lottery system could possibly be more work than the mess you’re dealing with now. I’d have a numbered sign-up sheet available, people can put their name on the list at any time during the day, or maybe even at the previous session if they aren’t chosen for that day, and return at the program start time to see if their number is picked. Must be present at the time of the drawing. Random dot org to pick the “winners.”

    7. epi*

      I would be moving this to an online sign-up, stat. Any survey software should let you set this up, and then easily duplicate the survey for future sessions. From there it’s easy to select the first five responses or pick them randomly from the list. You’re in a library, so most people should be able to spread out to computers and do it there if they don’t have their own. People who call to inquire can give their information to whoever answers the phone, and let that person fill out the survey. This also gives you the option to let people sign up a few days out and know whether it is worth coming in or not. Plus, then if you want to offer future slots to people who signed up before and weren’t selected, you can easily do so.

      Just a tip with regard to randomly selecting participants– this is super easy and there is no need to pick out of a hat. Number the list. Then Google “random number generator” to get a Google card that will do exactly what it says on the tin. Set the number of hopefuls as the max, then hit “Generate” five times.

    8. ExcitedAndTerrified*

      I do a similar sort of program for computer training and job search assistance at the library I work at, and it is insanely popular (I usually end up providing between 50 and 70 hours of 1-on-1 assistance each month, with just me offering the service. I’ve never had a month where the number was less than 40 hours of patrons served, even if I took two weeks off for vacation). So, congratulations on serving your patrons well! Having a program be this popular is a wonderful thing, but definitely a harrowing experience for the staff.

      For my sake, I’ve moved to an appointment based system, rather than going first come first serve, but I only allow appointments to be made in the window between 48 and 24 hours before you want to have it. People who schedule things a week or more out tend to forget, or get offered a more attractive option, and I just don’t have the time to deal with that baloney. By making folks schedule things for tomorrow or the day after, they usually show up without too much fuss (about 80% of them show up on time, and most are only 5-10 minutes late). I also have become pretty strict about an only one strike policy – if you blow me off once, life happens, and I don’t hold a grudge. If you miss two appointments in a row, I put your name on a list, and you’re on a 30 day cool down before you can schedule another appointment.

      Now, you say advance appointments don’t work for you all – I’m curious if narrowing the window for what advance means would help or not. But its up to you if you want to experiment like that.

      One thing I might recommend though – Ask the folks who have all started coming in where they’re hearing about the service from. It may be that there’s a local shelter or unemployment office which, having found out you’re offering this service, is using you all as an auxiliary to the services they provide. If that’s the case, a polite phone call explaining the limitations of the service, and some pre-printed material about it’s hours and expectations delivered to them, can often do wonders for helping to set patron expectations and keep people from being upset (as an example, when a local senior center was telling people that they could just drop in at my library and get help with their smartphones, I was seeing a lot of angry people about the fact that I only had 15 minutes to offer, or that I’d gone on lunch break, or that I was on vacation/sick/in a car accident). When I figured out who was sending the patrons my way, I stopped by with a couple of flyers explaining how I wanted to do things, had a nice little sit down with their director for twenty minutes where I explained it was a single person running things, and also taking care of all the IT needs in the building, and how I was happy to serve his population within certain rules and expectations.

      Once the public knew the expectations, and were being told how things were going to be handled, I didn’t actually see any decrease in the number of folks stopping by, but they level of irritation anyone would show tended to be much less – They knew everyone had to make appointments, and that sometimes I would be too busy to see them right away. Because of that, they tended to understand, and when I do take a walk in, the person knows they’re being an exception.

    9. Ender*

      Put the sign-in sheet out as soon as you open. Let them sign and then leave and come back at three. When the sheet is full, put next weeks sheet out and next person who comes in tell them today is full but they can sign up and be guaranteed next week.

      Simples.

    10. Eve*

      Could you do advanced registration but mandatory checkin 15 minutes before and if you don’t check in your lose your spot to someone at the library at a first come basis?

  29. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

    I need to rant.

    Well, no change in office mate behavior, he complains about having to do any work at all, is more focused on his phone than anything else, and it appears nothing is going to be done. The person assigned to help me with my work hasn’t been here for 2 weeks, and I’m not sure if she will return. I spoke with my manager, and while she was sympathetic and said she would do her best to find help for me, I’ve completely lost my patience with this whole mess. Seriously, you need to hire people who will show up to work, and if they do show up, actually do something!

    If there are any other managers out there who don’t like to deal with slackers and do what needs to be done, here’s what has happened. One of your highest performers is now at the point where she is ready to just say the hell with it, do the bare minimum, and call it a day. Why? What’s the reward if I go above and beyond? Nothing. And judging by what’s going on in front of my eyes, you’re not going to fire me, either. I’m pretty sure this isn’t the result you were looking for.

    1. Bea*

      Continue to do what you can and if you have time maybe pick up some of the extra that the slackers aren’t bothering with.

      You’re being taken advantage of and they do not care.

      Also please take your work ethic and desire to do well to another company. These people do not deserve you. They’ll give you fleas from all the dogs they keep laying down with.

    2. $!$!*

      This has happened to my husband. At his old job his boss told him that he couldn’t trust the other two workers so he just dumped everything on my husband. He got out ASAP and refused a counteroffer bc it wasn’t worth the hassle

      1. Bea*

        If you can’t trust someone there’s an ejection button for that purpose…omg omg omg. I’m glad he pressed s button himself!

  30. Cheesecake 2.0*

    Do you have a set of small tasks you save for when times are slow? I tend to clean up my desktop/office, make sure shared folders are all updated appropriately, write out a detailed 3-month chronological-order list of upcoming deadlines, read old emails to make sure I didn’t miss anything in the past and ask coworkers if they need assistance with anything smallish (since I will assuredly be busy again in a day or two).

    1. Amber Rose*

      I have a bunch of tracking spreadsheets that I only update when I’m bored. In them, I track all the serial numbers of the products we sell, who bought them when, and on what PO number. It’s monotonous, time consuming, and looks impressive if someone walks by my desk.

      I also do document reviews, where I check for spelling/grammar errors and any other changes or updates I need to make. I almost always find something.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I am working from home today because of the hurricane (after a couple of flickers, I am lucky to still have power and Internet) and there is nothing going on. My boss basically cleared his calendar, which cleared mine. I spent two hours this morning organizing my Outlook and got my inbox down to fewer than 100 messages, most of which are important things I want to keep for reference. In the office, I usually clean my space. Recently I updated some documents with things that only I care about. I also tend to make a lot of to-do lists.

    3. Bea*

      In the life I had when free time was limited, I used it for filing and reviewing accounts for accuracy. This is how I’ve found many errors before they were cemented into a period close…and seen many a mistake by former accountants who aren’t as uptight as I am about reviewing.

      I also have rewards accounts and so on to track.

      Or research upcoming employment laws or business news happenings to stay current.

    4. epi*

      I straighten up, re-check my to-do list, put anything on there I think I might forget even if it’s a ways off, and decide whether I want to do any of it today or if it can (or must) wait.

      Then I use my sweet university library access to read academic books and journal articles on topics of personal interest to me.

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Paper files. I keep electronic files organized and up-to-date as I go along in a project and we have an online job queue to track notes should any of my coworkers need to jump in while I’m out, but we also have a old fashioned back up paper file system where we are supposed to print out the job tracking notes, have a printed sample of the project, print out relevant emails, copy of the purchase order or invoice, etc. I hate filing papers and I almost never need to go back and reference the paper file so I tend to stack things up neatly but not quite collated until I have down time. I think some of my papers from the bottom of my stack might be almost a year old. I also tend to file the simple jobs more often and leave the complicated jobs for “another day.”

  31. Amber Rose*

    I have to face The Thing. The Thing is something I have been putting off since June, and the longer it goes the worse it feels. I know that I just have to suck it up and get it done, but it’s causing me such extreme stress and anxiety that I am having a very hard time. I have done every periphery thing related to The Thing except the actual Thing. I’m terrified someone is going to see me doing it and want to know why it wasn’t done three months ago when I said I’d do it. Also it has to get done soon because I have to start my audit within the next three to four weeks.

    I could use some encouragement or words of wisdom.

    1. anna green*

      Oh gosh, same. I am currently looking at something on my screen that was supposed to be done a few days ago, and today was the LAST. MINUTE. and I am still finding ways to not get it done. I am a horrible procrastinator.

      Just start. You’ll feel so much better once you start. That icky feeling in your stomach will go away and life will be sunshine and rainbows and birds helping you get dressed in the morning (okay maybe not, but really you’ll feel so much better)

    3. Greg NY*

      I just do it, knowing that once it’s done, it’s done, and it won’t be looming over my shoulder anymore.

      For those who don’t have the ability to focus all-in like I do, one strategy that really works is to commit to doing a little of it (e.g. 15 minutes worth). At the 15 minute mark, if you really can’t stand it, take a break. But chances are pretty high that once you start it, you will get into a groove and be able to finish off a large chunk (maybe all) of it.

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, this helps me. (In fact I need to do this, myself, pronto!) I tell myself, “I can do this for 20 minutes. Just see how far I can get in 20 minutes.”

    4. Almost Academic*

      Honestly, whenever this happens to me just starting is the best way forward. I remind myself that at multiple times in the past when I’ve felt like this, facing the anxiety head on and just doing it makes me feel way better than avoiding it (which just maintains the anxiety and worsens it instead).

      Also, better putting it off three months and getting started on it today, than three months and another day (which then has a way of spiraling to three months and a week, four months, etc…) Even just start by telling yourself to face it and work on it for five minutes today can help.

      Good luck!

    5. The Person from the Resume*

      I know this exact feeling. I hate my jerk brain which despite feeling so relieved when it is done throws up all those procrastination roadblocks.

      Best advice (which I have trouble following myself) is to just get started. Get staring promising yourself you only have to work (but really work) for at least 15 minutes (or however long it takes to accomplish a little something) but you can stop then if you want to.

      As long as I actually know what needs to be done (and the problem is not uncertainty on how to do it) I usually get going and work for longer than 15 minutes. It’s the starting that’s sooooo hard.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Uncertainty on all of what needs to be done is definitely one aspect of my anxiety. The other part is that what I know needs to be done will be an inconvenience to everyone until I’ve finished.

        Maybe I’ll work through lunch, try to do it when fewer people are around.

      2. epi*

        This is what works for me too. The uncertainty about what even needs to be done can be a huge demotivator!

        Another thing that sometimes works for me is breaking it down in my to-do list and writing down as much as I *do* know needs to be done. So I’ll have an item just for “read the edits on The Thing and make a to-do list as you go”, or “find out what data you already have for The Thing and what is outstanding” or “Read the instructions”.

        I recently paired the second approach with a suggestion I read to make *short* to-do lists, like five items long. I try to put a due date on mine which leads to figuring out: given the other stuff I have to do, what can I reasonably finish on The Thing this week? It feels way better to know.

    6. Random*

      Nearly every time that I feel this way about a project and procrastinate until the very last possible second to get it done, I find once I get working on it it’s not nearly as bad as I had worried it would be! Just starting is half the battle. You can do it!

    7. Bluebell*

      My useful motto is I can do anything for 15 minutes. That helps when it’s a really annoying task, and I often find that at the end of 15 minutes I’ll just finish things up. Good luck!

    8. Jemima Bond*

      Have you had to do The Thing before, or anything like it? Could you say to yourself, well I was really worried about Similar Thing last year and in the end it was fine.

      Suggesting this because a great technique I learned to deal with catastrophising is to think about previous times I was worrying something was going to go apocalyptically wrong, but it didn’t.

      1. Amber Rose*

        No. Part of the stress is just how much I have to do that I’ve never done before as a result of us moving to a new building. I feel very much adrift at sea.

    9. Scubacat*

      You can do this!
      Just start doing it, commit to interacting with scary thing for 15 min
      I’ve found that anxiety of Scary Thing is usually worse than actually dealing with Scary Thing.

    10. Persimmons*

      Pomodoro Technique! Customize and break it down into smaller bites until it’s tolerable. You can do anything for five minutes, right? Just start there, and keep putting one foot in front of the other. You got this!

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Line up your answer to the question why it wasn’t done 3 months ago.
      “Because I was working on A, B and C [labor intensive tasks].” Is probably good enough for anyone who is not your boss. Honestly, the only person you really have to explain yourself to is your boss, no one else.

      You can go in and chat with your boss. “I am finally starting Dreadful Task. I have concerns x, y and z. [Here pick your top 3 worst concerns, just enough so you can start the process.] See what your boss says about these things.

      You can line up resources (websites, phone numbers, cohorts) that you will use to help you to do the Task.

      I assume the Task will take a while to do. Let yourself up for air. I don’t know what is reasonable in your setting, I have taken my dreaded task and allotted a set amount of time each day. Once the time is up I move on to other work. This gives me the satisfaction of having done something and also gives me pressure relief as I move on to work I am more comfy with. I tend to prefer doing the difficult stuff in the morning before the day has a chance to wear on me. Other people might prefer the afternoon for opposite reasons.

    12. Anonymosity*

      You can do The Thing.

      My Thing was going through my files (at home). I had put it off for years–so long, that I ended up with four 13-gallon trash bags of shredded paper. It took forever because the damn shredder overheated. There is one bag’s worth left.

      We can do this.

    13. Earthwalker*

      What works for me is to get all the materials out onto the desktop (real or virtual) and go take a break. If I promise myself that I don’t actually have to DO it right now, it’s easier to get the stuff out. Once I come back from break, there it is all ready to dive into and can’t be ignored. If that’s still too daunting, I promise myself that all I have to do next is write down the steps I need to take to approach the problem and then I can stop and have coffee. It’s sort of like sneaking up on the procrastidon from behind.

    14. Tim Tam Girl*

      I’m not sure if this will be helpful to you, but whenever I’m feeling that way about a task – regrettably often, if I’m honest – I remember a line from a short story written by a kid I went to high school with, lo these many years ago: ‘If you do your homework, all of a sudden it’s done, and if you don’t it’ll never get that way.’

      Over-simplification? Absolutely. But also true. And it works particularly well for me because inevitably at some point, (the work I’m doing to avoid doing the work) + (the anxiety and distress the avoidance is causing me) > (the pain of just doing the bloody thing), and that line helps me do that math and mobilise myself.

      Good luck, Amber.

  32. Kristinemk*

    I need advice on how to let go while still doing a good job.

    Things are changing at my place of work – I’ve been there almost seven years, and seen it move from a small company that was sort of run on the side with me as the only home office employee to a larger company with a dedicated CEO and three accountants. This is great! It’s a great place to work!

    We’ve expanded quite a bit in the past several years, which is also great, but I’ve been wearing a lot of hats and working a lot of hours. We have a good accounting team, and we’re trying to move things to be scale-able instead of me touching everything. (great!) We’ve recently also gotten an operations manager, who is taking some of the things off the CEOs plate, so he can focus on acquisitions.

    However, the operations manager came in and decided to change everything to the way her last company was. We have a lot of room for improvement and a lot of streamlining that can be done, and I’m happy to get on board with making our processes better. There has been some conflict because I feel that she hasn’t taken the time to find out how and why we do things before she changes them, but I think we’re getting better with that. Our CEO isn’t someone that clearly defines roles and gives a lot of direction, so he has given her some high level conversations on what he wants to happen, and I think she is making that happen as best she can. I am also trying to let go of all the operations things I was handling – it’s a little difficult, because there’s no clear line between “this is your job” and “this is operations that you were handling” since I’ve done everything from the beginning.

    How do I not feel so invested in this company? I have poured hours and so much of my energy into it, and now many things are changing (maybe for the better, maybe not). I come in each day, and I no longer know if what was considered a good job yesterday is now going to be considered unacceptable work (yes, this is a quote) or what will change.

    I know I just need to come in and do a good job and leave work at work, but at the same time, I will need to get year end done, which normally involves a lot of late nights and weekends – if I don’t change my attitude, and am constantly wondering what will change next with no warning, I don’t know how I can motivate myself to do that.

    1. SleepyInSeattle*

      Wow. I could have written this a few years ago. right down to the operations manager who came in and did the exact same thing. It’s a tough position to be in. You don’t want to be seen as resisting change. Or being that person who is desperate to maintain the status quo when you need to grow. But it’s understandable to be irritated and worried when someone comes in and makes changes before they even really understand what you do and why you do it that way now.

      In my experience, I needed to be very honest with my boss and the new person coming in. I had built up a lot of credibility over that time and decided I was going to play some of those cards because it was making me miserable and I knew I was a valued employee. I also knew that there was a good chance the best move was going to be to leave. So I played my cards, but also started job hunting right away while I waited to see how it played out. I had a heart to heart with the new person and said “hey look, I’m totally open to change. And I respect that you have been brought in to improve this. I think it’s great. I’ve been doing all of this on my own for a long time and have invested a lot of myself in this role when I was doing it independently and I’m so glad to see that investment paying off in growth. But I also, given my deep experience here, would love to be more involved and it would be really great if we could collaborate more on these new processes/expectations. I have a lot of valuable information and context that will help you make the best decisions possible. I respect that the final decision with this lies with you, but maybe you could work with me to understand why we have things structured a certain way before making changes. Or ask for input, again with the understanding that the final decision is yours, about new processes. It would go a long way towards helping us work as productively as possible together.”

      I did the same thing with my boss, who was also her boss. He really understood and asked her to slow her roll on some of the new changes and get more input from existing staff. it helped.

      But again, know that it may not be the place you loved working anymore. Sometimes growth changes what we liked about a job. It might be a good push to see what else is out there and go into that search with the knowledge that you’ve helped grow a company and have now outgrown your role and that’s a great accomplishment.

      1. Auntie Social*

        You might suggest that you and some other long term staff are sort of the institutional memory since you’ve been there so long, and maybe you could help her realize why Teapotz Ltd. has always done things a particular way. Maybe staff could have some input when new programs are being rolled out. It sounds like she’s doing that for HER comfort, because that’s what she’s used to, rather than living with your system a while to see what works and what needs improvement.

    2. Bea*

      First off your investment in your company is not bad and you don’t need to detach completely. You don’t need to just “do your job well and leave it all to the wind” if that’s not your natural state.

      Now on to advice to lessen your stress.

      I’ve been there in other ways and always worked in small growing businesses (except the ones that stopped growing and were dying, which brings in similar issues, believe me!)

      Try working close with your ops manager. Let her know you’re game for change and happy she’s there. Tell her you want to continue being a team player and if you can get on the same page. Approach it as a good time to shake out those wrinkles.

      She could be so focused on the CEO’s vision they’ve spoken of,she’s blind to The Original Setup and that you need to be involved if only so you can provide your best contributions. You’re not resisting change and that’s what will make this work well for you all.

      These will bond you more to the manager who will appreciate it. It’s growing pains.

      Please don’t detach unless the manager makes it clear she’s not taking you into consideration or is totally disregarding you, you know?

      You’re expertise and experience and loyalty matter even when you feel brushed off vaguely. It’s about adjusting to going with the current flow. That’s why I plug into the oddest situations and I’m all in to a company I’m with until I’m ready to leave.

  33. Amy Farrah Fowler*

    Tangentially work related. My husband works as a teacher at a tiny private school. They’ve been decreasing in enrollment over the last few years. 2 years ago it was bought out by a new owner. Most teachers made it through just fine, but even my husband is seeing the writing on the wall that with less and less enrollment, it could close down. Here’s the rub. My husband works as the computer teacher and since that’s an elective (and he’s proven himself time and time again), it’s not *required* that he have a teaching certificate in our state. And he doesn’t. He also doesn’t have a college degree because he never finished.

    I think I have finally convinced him that he needs to make the effort to go to school and get the degree so that he will be able to find another teaching job in the future (should the need arise). I am a super into education, love school, have toyed around with getting a masters in education. I am so entrenched in how this could affect our joint finances and how he could be doing something he would enjoy much more (teaching just high school instead of having to deal with little kids which he finds annoying).

    What are the best ways I can support him as we embark on having him go back to school? He’ll still be working and he’ll likely need to be a part-time student most of the time. He didn’t do well at his first attempt at school because he “didn’t know what he wanted to do” and I think to some extent he’s still not sure what he wants to “be when he grows up”, but he’s nearly 35! At some point you just have to make a decision and do something! At his first attempt he also failed a number of classes. This was before I knew him, but from what I’ve been able to glean, he didn’t really try very hard because he didn’t have a goal to use the degree, so it wasn’t a priority. He also said that sometimes he just stopped going to class. As such, he doesn’t have a ton of confidence in himself, and so I’ve tried to really point out the differences and that I know he can do it and that I’ll be there every step of the way. What else can I do to make sure this is a success for him?

    1. Alice*

      There is a lot more support for students now than I remember when I was in school. So, encourage him to be proactive about counselors, tutoring, workshops that are offered for free to students.

    2. Jenna P.*

      Before encouraging him to go back to school, I would do research into the job market in your area and pull up a bunch of job descriptions for him to look at, to see if he is interested in any of them. Then if he finds some he likes, he can look at the qualifications for them and see what type of education he needs to work in that job.

      1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

        He enjoys the teaching he’s been doing, and this job he got as a sheer fluke (his best friend’s wife used to be the admissions director at the school and managed to get him hired). He’d never get in at another school without a degree/teaching certificate, so that’s what I think we’re trying towards.

        1. Smarty Boots*

          Your last sentence is telling: is this what your husband is trying for? Or what “we” (or you, for us) are trying for?

          That’s meant kindly, truly. If he wants to continue in this field, then that’s great and you can direct him to the school/department he’d go to so that he can talk to them about what he needs to do to continue in this field. But he needs to want to do it, and he needs to do the follow through.

          Of course you can discuss with him what your hopes are, what the needs are for your marriage and household.

          If he doesn’t want to do it, all the effort you put into it will not help.

          1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

            Yeah, we have been having those conversations which are hard, and he admitted that he needs a bit of a push, and I made sure with him that he wouldn’t resent me for helping give him that push towards what he wants, but is afraid to try. So I say we because we are a team, and I want to help him in any way I can, but I know that he has to be the one to take the classes and do the assignments.

          2. AMPG*

            Yeah, that was my thinking, too. You have a lot of “we” language in your post, and it seems unclear to me whether he actually wants to be on this path. And for that reason, I would suggest backing off quite a bit with your help. Be there for him if he asks, but beyond that let him do it on his own.

        2. C*

          This isn’t advice so much as a happy story. My older brother failed out of the college. Twice. He was also not motivated/kind of rudderless. He just got his degree in coding this summer. He is married with two young kids (and in his early 40’s)! He was never super into computers until recently. And he hated the job he had for years–sales–so being stuck in a job can also be a motivator. Keep us updated.

    3. deesse877*

      I’m in higher ed, at a large school that is mostly “traditional age” but frequently sees returning and adult students. I’d say two things:

      1) Start slow, ideally with General Education classes (not classes in the major). Seek out classes with low enrollment (such as writing or foreign language) and teachers with a strong reputation for helpfulness (RMP is about as valid as Amazon reviews…which is to say, not great but way better than nothing). This will build confidence and also give him the chance to learn things like “where is the tutoring center?” and “how do I get help from a librarian?” and so on.

      2) Don’t underestimate how different everything will be now that he is not a kid anymore. I had a relative go back to school in his thirties, and he had a lot of the same concerns–basically, “I sucked at it before so why would it be different now?” But it will be different. In particular, mature people are less likely to write off assignments and class meetings as random or useless, less likely to feel weird about asking questions in class, and more likely to feel OK going to tutors or office hours. All of which directly accrue to success as a student.

      If his long-term goal is teaching secondary ed, then any kind of college experience will help him teach teenagers, too (because it will help him point them in the right direction). So keep in mind that there are benefits other than the actual classes and diploma, too.

      1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

        Thanks so much! What we’ve discussed is starting at a local community college (we have a couple good ones in the area) and getting basics out of the way, maybe only taking one class the first semester just to get him to feel like he can be successful at a small piece before he takes a bunch and gets into a major.

    4. Bea*

      This time will be different than the last. He has to look at it differently.

      1. He’s older and wiser. He knows he enjoys teaching and wants to continue that path.

      2. He has you to encourage him. Gently push him to stay focused and going to class. Even your presence and his responsibility to you (his family unit) gives him more reason to keep going even it the process sucks while he’s grinding along.

      Don’t think him quitting 10 years ago means he’s in that same boat now.

      1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

        I definitely don’t think him quitting before means he’d quit now. In fact, I really believe that he’s come a long way maturity wise and I know that if he puts his mind to it, he can do it. Him overcoming his own fear of failure is the hard part right now. It’s much much easier to do nothing and then you can’t fail. (this is paraphrasing, but is basically the problem he’s had inside his own mind)

        1. Bea*

          Then the best is to be the cheerleader he can really benefit from. You can’t ease any fear because the scariest part is before your emersed in the process. Jump in, no wading in.

  34. Loopy*

    How do people who telework handle downtime? I’m home due to weather this week (yet it’s sunny outside where I am still…) and since a lot of things got put in hold, my expected workload diminished. Yet I had terrible guilt not working at 100% because I didn’t want to ruin teleworking privileges for others by not being productive.

    Seems like a catch 22. If it’s slow in the office, oh well, nothing to be done about it. Slow and I’m teleworking? Not productive, shame shame shame.

    I have teleworking anxiety…

    1. Greg NY*

      In the workplace in general, not just with telework, you can only do your best. If you have done your best and there is nothing more to be done, you can relax (mentally and possibly even physically) with a clear conscience.

    2. Ali G*

      Is there some research you can do for an upcoming project, or something you’ve been putting off? Clean up your email? Do some online tutorials for something you want to get better at?

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      But if there’s nothing to do, there’s nothing to do. People are a lot less likely to notice you’re not busy if they’re not expecting anything from you. As long as nobody can say “Loopy didn’t turn in a TPS report, looks like that telework thing is a bust,” I think you’re as productive as anyone can expect.

    6. Notthemomma*

      Go through all your required online training courses, then go through any elective ones which are available. Do an audit of your electronic files and clean up the folders. If you have an idea of what next years goals may be, start working on those, create that reference manual you wish you had when you started.

  35. Never*

    Anyone have success stories about getting out of a task they really don’t want to do?

    It’s a one-time thing, but would take a while. I can’t use the excuse that I’m “too busy,” because I’m not. The task isn’t even my job, it’s identifiably someone else’s (though my manager doesn’t think so).

    1. Ender*

      If your manager has assigned it to you, then it’s your job. Tasks get reassigned all the time and it’s totally normal to take a task off one person and give it to a less busy person. IME the only place this doesn’t happen is in a unionised workplace with defined roles.

        1. Ender*

          Depends on the role I suppose. if it’s something you need a qualification to be legally allowed to do, and you don’t have that qualification, then your manager I breaking the law asking you to do it.

          But if it’s just a normal business task that you are capable of doing and you have the time to do, and the person who usually does it is too busy this month, then yeah in my experience in non-unionised workplaces it’s all hands on deck and we’re a team and we give the work to the people who have the bandwidth.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          Is it something you’re not qualified to do? Is it way over your pay grade? Is it keeping you from doing the things you’re already assigned to?

        3. Bea*

          Did you suggest that Other Dude do it because it aligns with their job better?

          Unless you’re unable to do it or it’s wildly out of your scope, you’ll do more damage trying to refuse the task. Is it a job task or a workplace chore?

          1. Never*

            1) I said I didn’t see how it was a [my role] task, it’s more of a [other role] task. My manager said actually, it is [my role] task because I’m going to using the project later on. But I’m not even on this project (related ones, yes, but not this one).

            2) I’m not sure what you mean by “job task” or “workplace chore.” It’s related to my work (see #1) but not within the scope of my role. It’s also not hard, just boring and obnoxious AF. I know I hate it because I did it at LastJob.

            1. AMPG*

              I’m not Bea, but I’m guessing a “job task” is something that needs to be done in order for you to do your job properly, while a “workplace chore” is something that someone in the office has to do, but it doesn’t really matter who does it.

              At any rate, your manager clearly does have an actual reason for you to do this thing and has shot down your attempt to push back, so pushing back again will only damage your standing with them. If it’s a one-off, I say do it and get it over with. If it’s something that will now become part of your regular duties, I would suggest revisiting it after you’ve done it once.

            2. Bea*

              Ah you’re SOL since you have done it at your last job.

              Chores are obnoxious tasks that are spread around because nobody will ever be “yeah I’ll deep clean that supply closet!” kind of task. It’s usually something you’d give an office assistant or janitor but the place doesn’t have that person on staff and they don’t want to pay a service for it.

              1. Never*

                …what? Are you assuming my last job was in the exact same role as my current one? I don’t know where you got that assumption, but it’s not. In fact, the reason I left my last job is because they kept having me do this task that (I found out) I hate doing. Had I known it was going to be a part of this job, I wouldn’t have taken it (note, I’ve been here 3 years and this is the first time it’s come up).

                It’s a job task, then. For the record, we do have office assistants to do those kind of chores.

            3. valentine*

              Did you tell your manager you won’t be using it and/or you’re not on the project? (Are these synonymous or is “using” a typo?) Can you reframe it as an opportunity for Other Role that you/r manager don’t want to take from them? Can you delegate? Can you split it for quality-control purposes?

              1. Never*

                Thanks for your suggestions, I’ll think about ways in which I haven’t been clear with my manager on those items.

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      Yeah… once your manager assigns something to you, it is your job. In fact, most job descriptions say something along the lines of “and other duties as assigned by manager” because that’s just the way it is. Now if you are legitimately too busy, or if it’s something that would normally be someone else’s job and you would be taking it on permanently, you have a little room to push back (which I have done). You can say things like if you take that on it will leave you less time for x, y, and z work which ARE a part of your job. You can suggest that the task is better in line with someone else’s position and ask if perhaps they would be better suited for it. But you don’t get to just refuse to do it, especially for a one time thing when it’s just because you don’t want to.

    3. Ender*

      I realised that I never actually answered your question. In my experience the only way to get out of it is to have something that’s a higher priority. If you can identify something else you should be doing that’s more important you might be able to convince your manager.

  36. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

    My new favorite stress relief is Denali Puppy Cam (see handle for link). Live broadcast of the 2018 sled pups.

    Something I have been needing lately because my new coworker is getting on my last nerve. Endless conversations on the phone about her house repairs, getting mad at her son for sitting around all day playing video games and smoking weed (maybe if you stop giving him $ he wouldn’t be able to buy weed. Just a thought), and complaining about everything about our jobs. I feel bad because my reaction to her is definitely tinged with classism, so I can’t tell if she is really annoying or if it is my internal bias.

    I’d headphone but my back is to the cube farm hall and I don’t like not hearing what is going on behind me. Please wish for me to go “ear blind” with her voice soon!

    1. Amber Rose*

      Have you seen Kitten Academy? It’s a 24/7 live stream of kittens at a small shelter. Admittedly there’s a lot of footage of not very much, but you can rewind up to four hours and the kittens are friggin adorable.

      1. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

        No, but I need to add that to my list since puppy cam is only a couple of months. It is the same with the sled dogs. Lots of time they are off camera or asleep or both. I get ridiculously excited when they come into frame.

      2. ElspethGC*

        Another one is TinyKittens – they pretty much always have kittens in of one type or another (abandoned, feral mama etc). At the moment, it’s a stray mama who has two adorable kittens.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I love this post. I had a really stressful day on Tuesday. Like shaking with frustration stressful. I had to meet someone for lunch, and I passed someone with the tiniest King Charles spaniel puppy in front of their office building. I really needed to see that puppy right then.

    3. Anon From Here*

      Tinykittens-dot-com is a project of an operation that does trap-neuter-adopt and trap-neuter-release for a colony or two of feral cats in British Columbia. They have a cam, sometimes multiple cams, on the kittens that come through their system. OMG.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Can you change your cube configuration so that your back isn’t to the hall?

      Keep the configuration but put up a mirror (convex mirrors are great for this) so you can see behind you?

  37. in the file room*

    Just a bit of Friday amusement for you all: on my second day at my new job, my boss and coworkers mentioned that I was doing great… especially compared to the last guy they hired, who lasted all of two days because the work was too hard.

    There was proof that the work was, indeed, beyond his abilities: all of our paper files are in folders. He filed them upside-down on the shelf!

      1. in the file room*

        Yes.

        Well, technically all the paper is secured with spikes so that it couldn’t actually fall out. But that doesn’t make it better!

    2. twig*

      wow.

      BUT This reminded me of a job that I had a while back — it was a part time job working for a contractor who worked for an aerospace company. My company was handling the aerospace company’s training paperwork — It had to be just so in order to send it to the state employment and development office so that the company could get some money back from the state for training.

      My job was mostly collecting paperwork, sorting it alphabetically, doing some data entry, then copying the stack of paperwork (leaving it in alphabetical order) — then shipping the copies out.

      when I started — there was a 12 inch stack of copies/originals in no order what so ever that my predecessor had left. they somehow were incapable of: Alphabetizing and Keeping copies and originals separate…

    3. Bea*

      Holy crap. Flashbacks to the guy we tried out who was deleting orders instead of filing then and other assorted crazy things. We only found out after we let him go for being absent 5 days out of his first 2 weeks.

  38. Greg NY*

    My question is about vacation. This is only relevant to those of you whose jobs are the main thing standing in the way of you taking long and/or frequent vacations. (If the main issue is money or child/eldercare responsibilities, I greatly respect those situations.)

    How do you take long vacations (longer than 2 consecutive weeks) in typical workplaces in a country that seems to frown on vacation in general? For many regions of the world (Asia, Oceania, southern Africa), 2 weeks may not be enough to see everything that needs to be seen given the travel time and time zone changes involved.

    Alternately, how do you take multiple 2 week vacations, or one 2 week vacation and a 1 week vacation, given that in many workplaces, the work sits undone while someone is away (and even in those where a colleague does it, even 3 weeks out of the office in a year is often considered very disruptive even if you are willing to do the same for others who are on vacation)?

    You can mention “wait until retirement” if you want, but I’m very aware (and so should you) that health is far from a guarantee. The single biggest problem I have with the American workplace is that it effectively stops you from pretty much EVER doing the things you want in life.

    1. hobbittoes*

      I think it helps to be aware of the “rhythm” of your workplace. Some places have very predictable downtimes, which is a perfect time to take all of your vacation time in one fell swoop if that’s what’s needed. For example, I work at a university on a 12-month contract, but summers are slow, so I could much more likely take a 3-week vacation in July than in September or October. Now, that would use all of my vacation and I’m already blessed to have a WHOLE. FIFTEEN. DAYS. (grumblemumble) My spouse works for a tax software place, so the best times there are more like, a few weeks after major deadlines (the week immediately after is when they tend to do big upgrades).
      Some places are probably more of a steady stream, so it probably takes more planning. Like, a year or more of planning ahead so that projects don’t fall by the wayside and you have time to “save up” PTO if that’s the way it works in your workplace.
      Also make sure you don’t have any friends getting married…that’ll eat up vacation time like none other if they don’t live near you.

    2. AliceW*

      I work in finance for a large company and long vacations are unusual but not unheard of. Of course it depends on the industry and company, but I have taken two week vacations and one week vacations in the same year. As long as I give plenty of advance notice and make sure everything is covered and unfortunately check my email while on vacation when I can, my company has been fine. Others have taken longer vacations 3+ weeks, but it is very unusual. Just up to your boss really. My friend works at a mega corp and one of her direct reports takes 5 weeks off every other year to visit family in Asia. Very unusual but doable if your boss says you can do it. Just ask and outline your plan for coverage when you are gone. Also, you can always try and take a short term sabbatical or save enough money and take a long vacation when you find yourself between jobs.

    3. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      I don’t have advice about vacations, but I just wanted to say that work doesn’t actually stop me from doing the things I want in life. If you ONLY want to travel, I can see how you feel this way, but there is also more to life closer to home! Good luck to you in figuring out how to make the travel worth it!

      1. Greg NY*

        There indeed is more that I want to do than travel, but I’m able to fit those other things in. I do get some traveling in, but I feel more constrained in that area than in others. You made a valid point and I wanted to clarify it.

    4. bb-great*

      It sounds like wherever you work just does a bad job of dealing with people actually using their vacation time. Which is sadly not uncommon, but not universal. That said, the only person I know who regularly travels internationally is a teacher who goes in the summer.

    5. Tableau Wizard*

      I don’t know if anyone has figured this out other than looking for companies who accommodate and encourage vacations. There are some out there, but sometimes even within those companies, the flexibility is role/manager dependent.

    6. Nessun*

      We typically have 2 weeks to start and add time as we grow in seniority, so I currently sit at 25 days of vacation a year – but my company frowns on taking more than 2 weeks at a time. I did get around this rule by having an up-front conversation with my boss regarding what I wanted to do (take 4 weeks off at once), when I wanted it (scheduled for a time when I knew the workload was lower), and not booking anything until I had his approval. I was candid about wanting the time because I was traveling far afield (Japan!) and wanted to be able to fully experience a country which was hard to get to and required a serious time adjustment when I arrived. I was lucky that he was fully supportive – but that up front conversation definitely paved the way for everything to go smoothly. And this was at a time when I did not have a confirmed backup in place for my role, so we worked together on who would own what pieces of my job until I returned, and what pieces would go on hold (with the expectation that when I got back, I’d be on those as fast as possible).

      Granted, this was a one-off, bucket list trip – but I’d approach it the same way the next time. Because my bucket list is evolving!

    7. Holly*

      You have to find a job with the right benefits that work for how you’d like to live your life. For example, if you’re a teacher with no other responsibilities, you can travel the whole summer. You can have a summer house somewhere in Europe and live there for 2 months. BUT you can’t go on vacation during other times of the year. Or my job for instance is government employment so I accrue a certain amount of days per month and I can use them how I see fit, as long as you are managing your deadlines. Other jobs require more formal approval and will simply not allow more than a week off. Companies and governments have different cultures and you have to weigh that in your job decisions.

    8. Persimmons*

      You do it a few times, get laid off soon after, learn the pattern, and stop doing it.

      At least, that’s what I did.

    9. Anon From Here*

      For me, a combination of self-employment and short-term gigs rather than steady employment on a more ordinary career track. The downside to this “freedom” is that my household’s retirement savings are nowhere near where Kiplinger’s tells me they should be. But so far, along the way I’ve seen a lot of places and have many and various circles of friends.

    11. Ender*

      I work in one of those European countries with 6 weeks statutory min paid leave (inclusive of bank holidays). But it’s still pretty rare for anyone to take more than 2 weeks holidays. Any time I’ve taken that much it has been between jobs. I’ve always arranged it so I have a break between.

    12. Could be Anyone*

      I don’t have an answer for you, but I just want to commiserate. My SO and I don’t plan on having kids and we both work in the legal field. I desperately want to see the world while I’m still young and energetic enough to walk 15 miles a day on cobblestones, etc. My ideal would be one long trip abroad covering a few countries each year, plus a week somewhere warm over the winter, and a few shorter trips around the US. I think we might have to switch professions to get enough time off to accomplish this.

    13. Bea*

      I’m in small scale manufacturing and anything over 2 weeks isn’t going to happen. In production schedules are shifted around and spots filled in where necessary. In the office we just fill the gaps, people are cross trained, not much just sits unless it can.

      If someone needed extended medical leave, temps can be brought in for most roles so nobody is overwhelmed.

      I have worked places who let crap stack up or called me while recovering from surgery…while really drugged up. I walked out on that place upon my return needless to say.

    14. misspiggy*

      It’s just expected that work will get delayed or, if it’s urgent, a colleague will pick it up while you’re away. Regular updates in a team help enable the picking-up, but before going on leave most people will also alert a manager or colleague of what’s likely to need covering while they’re away. It’s expected that one or more team members will be away in any given month, and work flows accordingly. No one is expected to work a lot of extra hours to cover someone else, apart from the rare emergency.

      Most people don’t take more than two weeks in one go except for special events, but the same thing happens as above. It’s just a norm.

  39. Ali G*

    I start work at my new job in less than 2 weeks. The dress code is described as “casual” but no jeans. I’ve only worked in business/business casual environments. What is casual dress at work?? Complicating factor – I hate pants with a passion. They never fit me right and are uncomfortable (especially now because I carry all my excess weight in my hips and belly).
    Ideas??

    2. Kes*

      Casual but no jeans is a very odd combination – I would say jeans are usually a defining characteristic of casual environments, along with tshirts and hoodies.

      If you don’t want to wear pants, I would go ahead and wear skirts/dresses, just maybe err slightly on the more casual side with them (ex: jersey fabrics or a-lines rather than suiting sheath dresses) and just keep an eye out for what your coworkers are wearing to get a sense of the typical level of dress

    3. Nanc*

      Do you have the time to lurk outside their office and see what other folks are wearing? That’s what I did when I went from working in parks and rec to working in a university.

      If you feel you have to buy new clothes just get a couple of skirts to start with and five tops so you have a different top each day. I’ve found great scarves at consignment shops (my neck is always cold) and that makes it easy to change up your look. If you’ve never seen 25 Ways to Wear a Scarf on YouTube it will give you lots of ideas! (I linked it in my user name).

      Have fun at the new job!

    4. Admin of Sys*

      I live in loose skirts and short sleeved tops during the summer time, it’s the only way to withstand heat where I am. IMO, as long as you’re not wearing a suit (which would be overdressing) and not wearing a tie-dyed flowy skirt with bells (which is a bit too casual for most jobs), a simple skirt / top combo is fine for business casual. I tend towards maxi knit skirts because they adjust easily between meeting dress up (button up top, jacket), mid grade (button up top, no jacket), and casual (knit top).
      The only caveat is that if you’re in a male dominated workplace, it might re-enforce your femininity to folks who are subconsciously bias that way. If you want to avoid that, I’ve had good luck with travel fabric pants (the synthetic knit stuff, like from Chicos) which imo drape well and work a million times better than tailored pants.

    5. Red Reader*

      My no-jeans-casual for work is a maxi skirt (a-line, not like the super full or floofy kind) and a solid-colored v-neck t-shirt. Cardigan, if it’s cold.

    6. Neosmom*

      I wear “flowy” wrap skirts with a pair of shorts underneath. The look is perfect for business casual – at the front desk where I greet visitors.

      1. straws*

        Yes to shorts underneath! I can’t wear dresses or skirts without some type of short now, it’s so much more comfortable with the right style.

    7. straws*

      You definitely don’t need to wear pants to be casual. I work in a really casual environment that does allow jeans, but I rarely ever wear pants (I’m right there with you on the hip weight). 99% of the year I’m in a dress or skirts, but they’re casual. Like Kes said, jersey and cotton fabrics lend a more casual look and less structure as well. For dresses, I wear a lot of swing and a-line styles that minimize focus on the hips. Skirts are similar, a-line or full skirts. Maxi skirts work well for casual too.

    8. Ali G*

      Jersey knit! Y’all are geniuses :) I actually have a few pieces I can start with that are probably a little more dressy, but for my first few days (including a Board meeting) I think it’s OK.
      Thank you!

    9. Nacho*

      Casual = nice jeans without holes in them. Start your first day in half decent pants, maybe the ones you interviewed in, and check out your coworkers. A lot of places have dress codes that aren’t strictly followed, especially if they ban jeans or shorts. If your coworkers in jeans, that means it’s safe to wear them too. Otherwise, I’ve got no clue.

    10. Competent Commenter*

      I’m comfortable my way too late to this party but black yoga pants style slacks are amazing. I’ve bought like five pairs at thrift stores and one pair new. I wear them with a nice shirt and a cardigan plus flats. I know you have some trouble with getting pants to fit. Maybe because these are all stretch they’ll be different for you. I get mine hemmed as needed since I’m very short legged. You could have yours altered too. Incredibly comfortable. No buttons or snaps, just a wide elasticized top of the same stretchy material. Looks smooth and nice under your shirts. I feel like I’m wearing my running pants. Heaven!

  40. she was a fast machine*

    This morning has already been a roller coaster and it’s only 10am. I came in after being out yesterday with a stomach bug to find my entire area had been rearranged. The only thing not touched was my desk’s position, my computer, and my computer-adjacent desk space. My file cabinets, my table, my shelves, all of it was in a different location. Piles of paperwork that were planned to be filled yesterday got dumped on my desk. I know who did it, and she’s out today sick. She felt because part of my area extended into a collaboration area and because she is a part of one of my projects and we had previously enthusiastically discussed rearranging that it would be a great idea to do it while I was out and loop in other people in our area who use the collaboration area

    Needless to say, I was furious. This coworker has a pattern of being inconsiderate, but this is mindbogglingly so. The several projects I was working on all had different needs and items and she didn’t know that, so I had to rearrange several things this morning.

    Coworker texted me this morning to ask if I was happy with the area and I flat out told her I was not, that I was disappointed they made the change without me, I felt disrespected and it was very inconsiderate of them. She replied back some half-assed stuff about how we’d talked about it, it was a collaboration area, they didn’t touch my stuff…etc. etc. and I just ignored her.

    Then, I was approached by my boss and pulled into her office. She’s not a great boss for a myriad of reasons, so I was expecting to get told that there was something I needed to do and likely that the chaos my coworker had caused had resulted in something not getting done or some such that I needed to take care of.

    Nope, she apologized to me. She said she hadn’t known what had happened until today and she could not believe it and was upset on my behalf. She took responsibility, said she would be speaking with who had been involved, and said not only was it inappropriate for them to move my area around, that she had been told that they had been having conversations and discussing things about my work that were none of their business and hurtful and rude to me and she would not stand for that and would be having serious conversations with them about it. We had a long conversation about these coworkers having different working styles and not liking mine because I’m younger, and a bunch of stuff, but she was very emphatic about how inappropriate they’d behaved.

    This place is bananacakes sometimes.

    1. President Porpoise*

      It’s nice when you have a unexpected supporter in a frustrating situation. I’m glad your boss has your back in this instance. Also, boo on your coworker.

      1. she was a fast machine*

        I was nigh ready to commit homicide when I came in, admittedly, just because it topped off the craptastic previous day of being violently ill. But I calmed down, it just sucked to come in first thing to find that. I’m in awe of my boss having my back and definitely appreciate her support here.

    2. LDP*

      That’s awesome that your boss had your back on this! My boss is the guilty party when it comes to reorganizing my desk. She often works much later than I do, so at least 2-3 times a month I’ll come into work one morning and find everything on top of my desk moved and my drawers all disheveled. It’s then extra frustrating when she’s asking me for a certain invoice and I can’t find it because she moved it. So I feel your pain!

      1. she was a fast machine*

        It’s not terribly uncommon to find stuff on my desk rearranged or various things “straightened up” thanks to this particular coworker, who thinks that because she is one of the leads on my projects I somehow answer to her and she “owns” my space. But this is just a bridge too far for me, and I’m glad my boss recognized how rude it all was.

      1. she was a fast machine*

        I doubt it, and I have no issue with where most things were moved to (I already moved back what I needed to do my job) just that it was done without my knowledge and with general disrespect for my projects and workspace. That was what was the most infuriating thing.

    4. LCL*

      Oh God, the rearrangers. I have had some of my most heated arguments at this company about people doing this to shared work spaces. See, it’s a core difference in how people view the world. To a mover, they believe their way is the right way and they are making life better for everybody, and they get hurt when their extra work isn’t appreciated. To people who believe that you work with the physical environment you have and that time spent on the external environment is just noise and drama, the movers are engaging in advanced work avoidance and shouldn’t even get paid for that sh!@, much less praise. As always, the truth is situational; sometimes you have to fix the work space and some times it is best left alone. And if it is a shared work space, talk about these things before anything is moved.

      1. she was a fast machine*

        Yeah, this particular coworker is a rearranger. I tend to be too, actually! We had talked about rearranging this area and I was totally on board and excited to do it in the next few weeks since now is kinda slow. I just can’t believe (well, I can, but I didn’t expect it) the cojones of this lady to not only rearrange the shared space but My. Personal. Work. Area. into her specifications without my knowledge or consent. She has a habit of thinking because I work on her project(among others) that my area is just an extension of hers and that she’s somehow my boss. In fact, she has a reputation to the point where nobody else will work directly with her on projects because of her abrasive personality, which I can usually handle with a judicious sprinkling of not caring…but this is just a bridge too far for me.

        1. Wishing You Well*

          Sounds like she doesn’t have good boundaries, and yet, she knows enough to do it when you’re not there. Good for you for speaking up!

  41. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

    Ugh. Saw an ad for a job I thought could be great, but it had a short window for applying. Due to various fiasco and snafus, I ended up not being able to apply until two hours before the deadline- and could not get the application to save things. They did actually give an email to contact if you had issues, which I wrote to, but they never responded and two days later I got the “thanks but no thanks” letter. Sigh.

    1. Yojo*

      Sometimes postings with really short application windows are for positions that are slated for an internal hire but they’re obligated to pay lip service to interviewing all qualified applicants. (Which is its own kind of maddening.)

      1. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

        That’s a good point. And given the trainwreck that has been this week, the idea that I never even stood a chance is strangely liberating. Thanks!

  42. Ender*

    When I have sent you a dozen emails on a topic and explained it to you in a meeting with it up on the big screen, please don’t tell me you “don’t know anything about that”. It’s literally your job!

    Sheesh, some coworkers.

      1. Ender*

        Ah thanks. I just wanted to vent I wasn’t actually expecting someone to reply! But I appreciate it.

        I’ve asked my boss if I can do a training session on it next week so then nobody can claim they don’t know about it!

  43. Dill Pickle*

    I know that the standard of office etiquette is to keep your phone on silent and/or vibrate. Which I do. But now my company has given up the lease on our VOIP phones and gives us a monthly phone allowance instead. I got a Google Voice number to give out. The only people who have that number are our government clients and my coworkers. I can’t hear it vibrating if I’m in the office next door to mine working on something with a co worker (I don’t carry my phone with me everywhere especially if I am wearing a dress without pockets). And sometimes even when I’m at my desk, I don’t notice it vibrating. I share my office with one other person.

    Given the fact that it is now functionally also my work phone, can I leave the ringer on?

    1. Gaia*

      I would treat this like a desk phone. No one expects you to silence your office phone and since this is now your office phone, I’d say you’re safe having the ringer on.

    3. legalchef*

      Can you set it up that there is a special ring for calls coming through Google voice? So personal calls, texts, etc would be silent/vibrate, but work calls will ring.

      Or, just start carrying your phone, I guess. I generally carry mine if I am going to be away from my desk for more than a couple minutes, and rarely have pockets. You get used to it.

    4. MommaChem*

      Is there a way to set up a separate ringtone for calls that come through the Google number? If you could have those ring and then have everything else default to vibrate, you would have a great way to differentiate.

      1. Anonymosity*

        I don’t think so. If you forward Google Voice calls to your cell number it will ring the ringtone you set for your actual phone. Setting ringtones is based on the caller ID of the caller, not the receiver, and there is no way to predict who that will be on a business line.

        Source: I googled this.

    5. Rat in the Sugar*

      So the entire company has given up their VOIP phones? Am I wrong or does that mean that nobody has desk phones at all now? Because if this is a company-wide thing, that your cell is now used for work, I would think that it’s totally acceptable to have the ringer on all the time the same way you would always keep your desk phone turned up.

    6. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Absolutely. It might help to pick a “normal” ring (similar to a desktop phone) rather than “We are the champions” playing or some such.

    7. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’d think that as long as it isn’t super loud or a really annoying ring tone it should be fine.

  44. CremeBrulee*

    Long-time reader; first-time poster here –
    I work on a federal contract that was recently awarded to a low bidder – we all got pay cuts and reduced benefits as a result. I also, rather foolishly, signed a non-disclosure agreement that includes this clause: “During my employment by the Company and for twelve (12) months following termination of my employment for any reason, whether voluntary or involuntary, I will not accept employment with any [Contractor] competitor in any Restricted Position, a “Restricted Position” being one in which I am expected or required to provide competitive services substantially similar to those I provided to [Contractor] or to supervise or manage such services.” (and, of course, there was also a clause that said, “I understand if I refuse to sign this document that my job offer is withdrawn”)
    I am actively job-searching, but this non-compete is keeping me up at night. I am not in any kind of management or leadership position. My research indicates that this is unenforceable in my state (Colorado), but it also seems that you have to go to court to prove it. I don’t want to have to go through getting a job offer; have that job offer withdrawn because of the non-compete (which has already happened to a colleague); THEN have to get legal help — by which time I’ve lost out on the job offer.
    My questions are: Should I tell potential employers about the non-compete? If I get a new job offer, and my current employer asks who it’s with, do I have to tell them? Can my current employer contact potential new employer and interfere with my offer? What are my options for getting out of this thing? I may set up a consultation with an employment lawyer, but I’d love to hear about any experience you all have with something like this.

    1. Gaia*

      Overly restrictive non competes have been repeatedly rules unenforceable. Perhaps run it past an employment lawyer who knows federal contractors but I wouldn’t worry too much.

    2. Reba*

      You do not have to tell Current Job where you are going when you leave.

      You need to talk to an employment attorney proactively and have them read over your contract.

      Good luck!

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Personally I’d get a letter from an employment lawyer stating that the non-compete was unenforceable (if that’s possible to get in writing?) and then bring it with me to any interview. Then if the non-compete comes up, which it might since the competitors probably all know about this company’s deal, say you signed it as a condition of employment but it cannot be legally enforced.

      1. CremeBrulee*

        I appreciate the responses! I just spoke to the new project manager (not specifically about this -it was a “get to know you” meeting) and he said, “Oh, about the NDA – you guys weren’t supposed to receive that. It was supposed to just be for project managers” and I said, “So….are they going to rescind it? Give us something in writing?” and he just said no, but they won’t pursue it. That doesn’t really make me feel better – I do think I want some input from an employment attorney, anyway.

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        Employment lawyers don’t do that. They read the agreement, talk about what it means in general terms, and then say “it depends.” You will not be able to get anything definitive from a lawyer, because they are not in a position to be definitive. If you want something definitive, go to court, and have a judge rule in your favor. Even that isn’t truly definitive, since your employer can appeal, but it’s better than a lawyer saying “it depends.”

    4. Ender*

      I’ve seen tonnes of people break those non-compete agreements and I’ve never once heard of anyone actually being sued for it. Talk to an employment lawyer if it’s really really worrying you, but my guess is you’ll be fine.

  45. OlympiasEpiriot*

    Nothing important, just a little story from yesterday.

    I’m a woman. Another female colleague and I were walking in the corridor and a male colleague turns the corner and is walking towards us, says “Nah, not a good idea. If some disaster happened right here, and both of you were gone, there’d go 50% of our women engineers!” [That’s an exaggeration, btw. It would probably only be ~21%, while it would be ~1% of the firm.]

    I immediately said “Well, then, you’d just have to take one for the team and get a sex change!” And walked off to where I was going. Female colleague stayed to talk with him about something. I got my tea and returned, he apologised, which I brushed off with the old it’s-a-joke-buddy!

    *Sigh*

    He’s a pal, too.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        All the guys here get worried when they see several of the women talking together or going en masse to a Women In Construction/Engineering/Transportation/Architecture/Etc. event.

        We have recently started a Women’s Development Committee in the firm with no men on it.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I guess I’m missing something. Seems like he was commenting on the lack of female engineers in your office. Which isn’t a bad thing to notice.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        I actually figured he was joking, gave him a sarcastic semi-joking reply — because we all know there’s few women in the firm, we’ve lost really good people because they decide they just don’t want to deal with it — and I guess there was a bit of an edge in my voice or he was feeling tender about the subject already.

        I was surprised he apologised. I figured that I’d have gotten another sarcastic comment back when I returned to the intersection in the corridor.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        I think you meant to type “joke”? (If you’re using a QWERTY keyboard.)

        Nah, my pet issues are waterproofing and making the junior engineers learn how to do hand sketches. [Don’t argue about the hand sketches. Just know that it is more efficient in several situations in my biz that are totally normal to encounter.]

  46. Gaia*

    I’m really trying to distance myself from OldJob but I’m finding it hard. I learned yesterday that they’ve made some decisions around the work I did that is categorically flawed (not an opinion, there’s nothing that could have changed in 2 weeks to make this a good decision). Unfortunately, people without an understanding of the impact made the decision. It will cause big issues down the road and I can’t do anything about it. Sigh.

    On a related note, I had a great chat with a VP at OldJob about a role. She asked me to email her my availability and contact information to talk further. I’d gladly return to the company – especially for this role. I sent the email and now I anxiously waiting to hear when we’ll talk. I know it has only been two days but it feels like an eternity. All my willpower is going in to not emailing again (I won’t – I promise!)

    And still I look for work. I’m still very early days but I feel a bit adrift. I withdrew from a process for a role that seemed great when it became clear they actually needed a different skillet entirely. They took the advise well (like many companies new to Big Data they don’t have a great sense yet between data management and data governance or analysis) and I see they’ve updated their advertisement.

    Wish me luck, y’all! I’m starting to get seriously bored.

    1. There is a Life Outside the Library*

      Omg, I feel you 100% on trying to distance yourself from old job. I finally got people to stop contacting me about decisions/workflows I was responsible for. I’m still friends with a few people from there and while they are respectful of me not wanting to hear about every detail…of course they have shared some things that haven’t exactly made me happy.

      Good luck with your search!

      1. Gaia*

        Thanks, it is so hard because I was (am) rather close with many co-workers and my leaving was a bit of a shock to them and left my function unworked. I know they’re trying to be helpful but I’m so passionate about this work (and worked so hard for so long to get it where it was) that it is actually just upsetting.

        1. Slartibartfast*

          No advice, just empathy. Management that doesn’t know/understand what you do, but then makes sweeping changes to your job really sucks. Especially when you’ve put years of your life into developing the role. Chanting “not my monkeys, not my circus” helps me, and so does time.

  47. Violaine*

    I am super glad to be safe from the hurricane, and doubly much so that my workplace gave 2 administrative paid days in the event that we needed to evacuate, even though we didn’t get much of anything beyond some rain and light wind in my region, and possibly some tidal flooding in the low-lying areas. I saw a post else-web mentioning that some people needed to use their PTO for evacuation/disaster recovery, and I can’t help but to think that while not technically wrong of the employer to do that, it’s just.. not great policy. I am feeling really fortunate right now.

  48. Roseberriesmaybe*

    MY new colleague (who is also the youngest in our department) got drunk at work drinks and started imitating the senior manager’s accent. Among other things. Any other work drinks horror stories to share?

    1. Roseberriesmaybe*

      Not sure why my is capitalised there… He was also teasing someone else for her home town. She was thoroughly unamused

      1. Brelade*

        I worked with a lady who had weight loss surgery and in her case part of the aftermath was she really couldn’t tolerate booze at all. She drank too much at our work xmas party and then vomited in our shared filing cabinet all over my work files. She was fired a few months later for stealing from the office charity collection.

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      There was a good-bye gathering for an ex-colleague who was moving far away to get married decided to tell me that he and his fiancee were still not-officially-monogamous until the marriage and he’d always wanted to spend a night with me. Oh, yeah, and he said he thought he ought to be considered due to a physical similarity to Loverman, who he had seen at a Holiday Party.

      I can’t remember exactly how I turned such a fabulous invitation down. I might have said anything like that would involve Loverman’s permission, presence and possibly cameras…

      1. Not So NewReader*

        And a permission slip from ex -colleague’s mommy?
        Sorry, that is my go-to on some of these things.

      2. Wishing You Well*

        I’m sure whatever you said was perfect.
        Sometimes silence in the moment can be your best friend. I was tempted to tell a coworker his nasty proposition would have to be okayed by his wife but I said nothing and only later found out he and his wife were into threesomes! My snappy retort would’ve turned into a negotiation! Yeesh.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      One intern in the intern group I was in at the time decided to share with us graphic details of how he was cheating on his girlfriend. Not sure on the logic of sharing that with your coworkers, especially when some of them are friends with said girlfriend. The rest of us may or may not have ‘accidentally’ left him at that bar. (All bars were within walking distance of his apartment.)

      At a conference during previous CrapJob, Crazy BossLady got mad that a colleague invited me to join the group out for drinks, though she was invited too. She then decided to throw a massive tantrum during ordering pizza at said bar and left, leaving someone else to pick up her tab & pizza bill. On the plus side, someone bought me a drink for having to deal with her.

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      One of the new grad hires was hitting on another grad at the Xmas party when he was wasted. The managing partner told him very nicely to cut it out and got punched in the face for his trouble, honesty don’t punch people at all, but especially don’t punch the owner if the business.

      Then there was the accounts receivable clerk who did two grams of coke at the summer ball and caused a total scene.

      3. LCL*

        How do I get invited to your company’s parties? They sound much livelier than our cake and coffee soirees.

    5. Nervous Accountant*

      There’s a heavy drinking culture here, and majority of us are happy drunks. No pressure on those who don’t drink. Frequent happy hours and just regular events (post tax season parties, holiday parties, etc). AFAIK no one has been fired/disciplined for getting too drunk.

      One year, we hosted a before-tax season party in the office. Good idea at the time, but terrible in hindsight.

      One guy ran in to the glass doors and passed out. This guy frequently got mean-drunk and was eventually fired for constantly calling out.

      That night, a few interns threw up in the bathroom and one threw up near my boss’s desk. Stain’s still there.

      We had a boat trip last year and a team leader was passing out drunk for 3 of the 4 hours. Some people took pictures. We put him in an uber and took him home. I was “voluntold” to ride with him (not a big deal since I lived a few minutes away from him and was ready to go any way).

      At the last tax season party, I *think* I hugged my boss, I can’t remember if I did.

      At the most recent holiday party, I got super lit. My coworker got drunk for the first time ever. Me him, and one other person frequently commute home together, and this was no different. Well, he threw up a lot in the uber. The next morning, I was chatting with my boss (she’d seen me and the other guy drunk off his ass) and she said to me, “I’m so glad they were there to take you home.” Meanwhile, whos here at 730 AM sober AF? *THIS GAL*

      We had a company karaoke party for a post tax-season celebration. My coworker sang “Barbie girl” and that was his “coming out” as he likes to call it. I voiced Ken which was called “Demonic Ken”.

      Oh, one guy who had been hired 2 weeks prior got a little belligerent with the CEO and was fired a few weeks later.

      Fun times lol

      2. OlympiasEpiriot*

        :-D I’m really happy I don’t work at your firm. But, DAAAAAAMMMMMNNN, more power to ya for being there bright-eyed and busy-tailed!!

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          Lol. Our company likes to do these events on a weekday/weeknight. I’m proud to say I’ve thoroughly enjoyed my nights without ever calling in sick due to being hungover.

    6. WellRed*

      Similar vein, we had a coworker drinking on the job. She got into a mild fender bender in the office parking lot and didn’t stop, but since it was in full view of all the windows in the building the car owner reported it. She seemed off and got breathalyzed (right there in the parking lot!) and passed (this is around noon). Apparently, the officers still suspected her of drinking and driving. The next day, when she left for the day (5pm) she got pulled over and this time didn’t pass. She was fired not too long after for related behavior. I hope she’s doing better.

    8. Lia*

      At the university where I used to work, a development officer (so, fundraiser) got smashed at an event and mouthed off to a major donor, telling him EXACTLY what she thought of him. Now, donor was a bit of a prima donna but still…

      Even though employee’s husband was a university official, she still got canned by Monday morning and years later, from what I hear, her name is still tainted. And her husband stayed there for ages, ultimately retiring from that university!

    9. AdAgencyChick*

      The junior account person making out with the married creative director after one or two or seven too many.

    10. Sleepytime Tea*

      My boyfriend worked for a company where drinking was a pretty usual thing. People would bring in a bottle of whiskey on Friday and they would do tastings and such, there was usually beer at the big meetings, and open bars at the holiday parties. No big deal, right? Well, they’ve recently implemented some changes.

      There is now a form that a few people have had to sign saying they will not drink at work events after some dude took his pants off. I believe this form is being used a lot more often now after they had to call 911 for 3 different people on the same day during a WORKDAY event for alcohol poisoning.

      In addition to the form, they recently tried implementing drink tickets for their events to limit people to 2 (which never really works because people trade tickets or get them from non-drinkers etc) but honestly I was surprised it took that long. When I first started hearing the stories of how people were getting so drunk ON THE CLOCK that they needed an ambulance called I couldn’t believe they had let it get that far and continued to let it get that far. Better late than never, I guess.

  49. esra*

    Please help me get over my incredibly petty issue:

    A coworker always says: “See if you can do XYZ.” Like I work for him, instead of him saying, you know, please. This is for everything from requests for assistance on his projects, to things a coworker legitimately should be bringing to my attention (but not telling me to do).

    It’s irksome, but I don’t think it’s something that rises to the point of needing to take action? I would welcome perspective, or commiseration on petty things that drive you nuts.

    1. Quill*

      It could be a generational or regional difference, with him thinking this is a normal format for a request between equals.

      If you ever have to ask him for something, turn it back on him. If he takes it completely in stride, he considers this a normal phrase. If he bristles or doesn’t take your request seriously, he was being rude and knew it.

      1. esra*

        The other woman on our team has had similar complaints, he gets along well with male colleagues. We’re all in the same lates twenties-thirties age range, so it’s definitely not a generational thing. But we are also in a male-dominated tech company, and on a creative team, so it can be tough to know when it’s a creative/not-tech thing, and when it’s a woman thing, and when it’s just personality differences.

        This is probably crappy socialization for women coming through, but I feel weird in the moment saying “dont’t ask me things like that.”

        1. Reba*

          I like Quill’s suggestion. For a conversation you could try something like:

          coworker: See if you can do Thing today.
          esra: Are you asking me to do something?
          cw: Yeah, I want you to do Thing, it’s important.
          esra: We are colleagues, you need to ask me for help, not give me orders. I’m sure you don’t mean anything by it* but I’ve noticed that you often tell me to do things, rather than asking. It might seem minor, but in future could you try to make your requests as requests?

          Idk, that seems good to me, but then again there is a risk of becoming known as fussy or demanding. UGH. Also I realize you weren’t really asking for advice. It’s just–he shouldn’t talk to you like that! Maybe it’s more about realizing, this guy is kind of a boor, and ideally other people in your group also know he’s kind of a boor. If this is just a conversational thing, you can try letting it go. BUT if it is part of a pattern of interactions that you notice is limiting your input to projects or otherwise inhibiting you from doing good work and getting appropriate credit for it…. that demands action. Or asks politely for action.

          *whether or not this is accurate

    3. foolofgrace*

      Next time he says “See if you can do XYZ”, respond with “Please”. He will look at you funny, wondering why you responded like that. Then he will get it, and say “Please” himself.

    4. Arjay*

      When it is time for us to change our passwords, we get a strongly worded “reminder” from IT that if we don’t change the password, we’ll be locked out, etc., etc.

      It drives me crazy because there’s no initial notice that it’s time to change our password. The first notice is already labelled a “reminder” and it makes me want to punch that email in the face.

      So I commiserate. :)

    5. Me too*

      Can sympathize as have something similar going on and reading your comment I realize a lot of it is to do with how coworker talks at me rather than to me – we are peers and I do not report to her. Added to the fact that early on she tried to give me grunt work that is specifically her responsibility and got belligerent when I shut that down. She stood at my desk and said explain to me why you won’t do this -I stared at her in disbelief and told her because I’m busy with X for big boss and Y is your job.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I am surprised someone has not cured him of this by now.

      “See if you can do XYZ.”

      1)I know I can do XYZ so I don’t need to “see if I can”. If you ever want any help with XYZ all you have to do is ask me.
      Tricky part: Do nothing, until he asks if you will do XYZ.
      OR
      2) See if you can say please and thank you.
      OR
      3) When you get around to asking me, I probably can do XYZ.

      The hardest part of any of these is to not start XYZ until you get the appropriate response. My fav is #3.

  50. Brelade*

    How do you handle things when you don’t really get along with a boss? I was hired when my boss was on a leave of absence and everyone regaled me with tales of how we would get along because we’re similar people, have the same communication style etc etc.

    Well he’s back and we don’t get along – I think the feeling is probably mutual. Our working styles are very different and we have had clashes over areas where he wants to bend rules on certain things to make them more favourable for himself. I’m an ex-manager delighted to be a regular employee again and to be honest we’d probably get on in a social sense, we just don’t gel professionally.

    Should I raise it or just go straight to the job ads?

  51. cubey cuberson*

    Is This Normal?
    Recently our office switched from separate spaces to closely-packed cubicles to use space more efficiently. The things I have noticed my coworkers do, now that we are so snug:

    1. mutter to themselves
    2. chew with mouth open and always take meals at desk
    3. cut fingernails at desk
    4. all the noisy bodily functions
    5. talk about/chime in to other people’s conversations while they’re happening
    6. listen to music out loud

    All of these drive me nuts but are they all to be expected? Is there a line here somewhere that people should not cross????

    1. LQ*

      Expected?
      1. yes, some people don’t notice (everyone does this to some extent, but most people learned to get fully silent and not move their mouth), if you point it out, most people will say oops but still slip back occasionally
      2. no and yes
      3. no/UGH
      4. humans are noisy
      5. yes/no depending on your culture, I think the physical culture of being squished together makes people more likely, but the office culture can shift on this
      6. you can ask people to use headphones

      Bonus, can you ask about noise cancelling headphones for everyone?

    5. Ender*

      Listening to music out loud has not been allowed or done in any open office I’ve ever worked in. All the others are pretty normal (assuming they are in the “normal” range of bodily functions – not like some of the crazy letters).

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      1. mutter to themselves – sorry, I’m that person, sometimes I need to talk stuff out. Totally normal.
      2. chew with mouth open and always take meals at desk – Chew with mouth open? Gross, but some people have bad manners. Eat at their desk? Extremely common.
      3. cut fingernails at desk – UNACCEPTABLE. I mean it’s one thing if you break a nail and need to fix it, but not ok if you are grooming yourself.
      4. all the noisy bodily functions – Yeah… that’s just part of being a human being. But do you have super hearing or do you just work with some super disgusting people who are burping and farting all the time?
      5. talk about/chime in to other people’s conversations while they’re happening – Yeah, also normal for being human
      6. listen to music out loud – This is really not common in any office I’ve been a part of. There have been a few times when coworkers and I have mutually agreed to put on music, but otherwise it should be kept to headphones and there is nothing wrong with politely asking someone to use headphones if their music is disturbing your concentration.

  52. DCbaby*

    How can I stop replaying my four hour, multiple person interview in my mind? Overall I think I represented myself well, but there were things I wish I’d been more articulate about. Questions I wasn’t expecting. Scrutiny over my resume gap from one person, and some questions about my kids (I mentioned them first so I guess they are fair game?). Even a question about why I’d had the same boss at multiple boss at different companies (that’s a bad thing?). I keep reviewing it all and it’s driving me cuckoo.

    2. Ender*

      Every time you catch yourself thinking about it click your fingers beside your ears and think “stop!” Then change the thought to something else (I like to try imagining a giant puppy gambolling about).

    3. zora*

      Either distraction (watching tv, listening to music or podcasts that drown out my thinking) or meditation/yoga. There is an app called Calm that gives you guided meditations of different time lengths. They are amazing at how they have helped me quiet my usually-always-racing-mind.

      Also, look online for anti-anxiety techniques. Basically, when I am obsessing about something, I just stop and repeat to myself in my head (or even out loud if I’m in private), “it’s okay. I don’t need to think about this, there is nothing I can do now, it will be okay.” And if I start thinking about it again, I don’t get mad at myself, I just repeat the above and try again. It isn’t a magic immediate solution, but the more I have practiced it, the more it works!

      1. DCbaby*

        Thank you guys. I kept super busy today so I was plenty distracted. I’ll need some extra-strength diversions this weekend! I also think I’m coming off of a huge adrenaline surge. Who knew interviewing could be so physical!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Write or type it out. Seriously. Put it all down on paper. You might finish writing, you might get sick of it half way through or you might decide to write an abbreviated version such as listing off the stuff you did well with and the stuff you think is weakest or you might end up writing out the whoooole big thing. Go with the flow.

  53. Grey Headed Lady*

    I have a question related to the five answers to five questions post from Monday. There were a couple of comments about the hair color question that mentioned not dying ones’ hair as unprofessional for a woman once she reaches a certain age. Do you all believe this to be true? I am a young twenty-something female and have decided to not dye my hair for a variety of reasons, but most notably the up-keep required. Is this unprofessional? For reference, my family tends to go grey young, so I already have my fair share of greys that are fairly noticeable when I wear my hair up.

    I am curious to hear thoughts on this because I honestly had never though of a lack of hair dye as unprofessional until now, and I am questioning if this thought is the norm or not.

    1. The Original K.*

      I don’t think so. My mother’s hairdresser talked her into coloring her hair once in her late 40s (she started going gray in her 40s) and my mother essentially said she couldn’t/wouldn’t be bothered with trying to keep it up, so she never did it again. She has worn her hair short for a long time because it’s low-maintenance – she gets it cut often but the cut takes 20 minutes. Adding a level of maintenance was of no interest to her. She retired last year from a very senior position. I met a woman in a professional setting this week, a department head who was over 60 with a pure white pixie cut that I thought looked fantastic. I’ve worked with a number of women who don’t color their hair and I never thought anything of it.

    2. Quill*

      I don’t see how the natural process of getting old should be unprofessional, but I know that there’s a LOT more social pressure on women to disguise their age than on men, so some people (mistaken people, but potentially ones whose opinions of you matter) might consider it less professional.

      1. The Original K.*

        Yeah, I think I should add the caveat that if you work in an image-conscious industry, it may matter. If you work at a fashion house, you probably would be out of place with gray hair (unless it’s the trendy intentional gray that some people are sporting) in the same way you might be out of place with less-than-trendy clothes.

    3. Thursday Next*

      Upfront with my bias: I’m in academia.

      I have seen some people who are relatively young for total grey, and they look great! One of my friends is in school communications, snd I think she’s been totally grey since her 30s.

      I suspect that not dyeing hair keeps it in better condition, so their grey hair has nice texture and shine.

      I don’t think greying looks unprofessional at all, but that might depend on your industry and area.

    4. Reba*

      This is probably highly dependent on field/company culture and regional culture.

      I also think the idea of professionalism is getting tangled up with image-based perception of women’s value, in ways that are not helpful. That is to say, I think the issue lies more with “women tend to turn invisible when over ~40,” and fear/experience of age discrimination more generally, than with hair dye as such. Obviously, it’s not unprofessional to get older! It’s not unprofessional for men to have thinning hair, right? But I think people observe the consequences of being seen as older.

      I have about 10 white hairs currently, and I’m very proud of all of them. My mom gets her grays partially covered, which is both more realistic in appearance and very funny to me.

      1. Rachel B.*

        Emmylou Harris has had a gorgeous grey mane since she was fairly young. She keeps it beautifully and I know of no one who has said, “Gosh, why doesn’t she dye it?”

    5. Nessun*

      I think the only issue is keeping hair neat & tidy – well-kept hair says more about professionalism than what colour it is. Myself, I’ve coloured my hair since I was in my 20s (in my 40s now!), because I went white young and didn’t want to look out of place – it didn’t grey, it went a rather super blinding white/silver, which I someday plan to absolutely ROCK in a long mane of curls, just not yet. Right now, I always go to a stylist to get it dyed, because repeated colour from a box can destroy your hair, and there’s nothing professional about broken, damaged hair.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I color my hair because I’m not ready for as much gray/white as my natural hair contains (probably 30% and somewhat patchy). I’m 44 and I have a ‘young’ face so for me, the calculation is: will the gray age me more than the dye makes me look like I’m trying too hard to look younger? Having two young kids also makes me reluctant to look like the Old Mom that I actually am.

      That said, I don’t think it’s unprofessional at all, either to dye or not dye. (Although once committed to dye, it can look a little sloppy if your roots grow way out or your hair is chemically damaged from over-dyeing.) Like wearing makeup, there will be some fields with different expectations for what constitutes a professional look, but generally speaking I think it should be respected as a personal choice.

    7. JessicaTate*

      I don’t think it’s unprofessional in most industries to let yourself go grey when you naturally go grey. Like anything, it may impact people’s impressions of you – perhaps thinking you are older than you are. Depending on whether age is a pro or con in your field, you can take that into account.

      The anecdote I have to share is about a female friend of mine, who does independent contracting work in a very hands-on, face-to-face, technical field that is dominated by men. She’s young (30s) but started going grey earlier than average. When she stopped coloring and let herself be naturally partially grey, she found she was suddenly able to command a much higher daily rate of pay.

    8. Anon From Here*

      I’ve been going gray since my 20s, am nearly all gray/white now in my mid-40s. I have absolutely had age discrimination in hiring problems.

      But also, f-ck it. I don’t want to dye my hair. (And also, I have absolutely never had “she needs to touch up her roots” problems.)

    10. NaoNao*

      I don’t think it’s inherently unprofessional. But here’s some caveats:

      Gray hair is often much more wiry and unruly than hair with color. Therefore someone with many gray hairs might look slightly less polished than without.

      Gray hair often spreads unevenly or looks scattered and random. Again, not super polished.

      Gray hair can be a dull, sort of soft no-color that drains the face of color and makes people look older than their true age. Not “unprofessional” but not…put together, polished, and customer-friendly.

      Gray hair that’s natural is often (perhaps unfairly) associated with a certain “hippie” type, which seems to be non-mainstream and doesn’t read as a polished professional.

      Having said all that, I have friends with gray streaks, my mom has a whole head of white and silver hair, and there’s so many “Gray and Gorgeous” models out there that I think it’s no longer the indicator that it once was!

    11. Bea*

      I agree with the comment up thread. It’s about the way you keep it. Unwashed and tangled hair tends to look bad at any color.

      I’ve never had any reaction to someone grey or greying. It’s a natural process and often looks pretty IMO. Like when you have natural highlights.

      However I’ve seen gross matted and unkept hair of natural and unnatural shades that make me question the person’s professionalism. It’s that unwashed style I can’t get behind.

      People have a varying amount of colors and textures to their hair. Hygiene is always key. Everyone can usually find a way to present their hair style without looking messy.

      I’ve got wild natural curls. If i don’t style it, I put it up in a pony, bun or braids, whatever. It’s always clean. And I’m often questioned if it’s real because it’s an unusual shade but it’s absolutely natural color.

    12. HannahS*

      I think there’s nothing unprofessional about a person’s hair colour, any more than there’s anything unprofessional about your bare face or the shape of your body. Also, men rarely dye their hair for the sake of professionalism. And I’ve noticed, increasingly, women who don’t dye their hair. My mom and aunt went grey naturally, and for a long time, they were the only ones. Increasingly, I see women in their 30s and 40s with undyed hair. I think it looks great, personally, and plan to do it myself.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      I think poorly colored gray hair is borderline unprofessional. If I were to color my hair it would be on a tight schedule so it looked similar day after day.
      I don’t bother coloring it. Stay hydrated, eat good foods, your hair will reflect your good habits.
      In the summer the white turns a very soft blonde. Some people’s white hair does this.
      I have seen some medications turn people’s hair in to an absolute mess. I don’t think coloring it is going to make a difference. It will just be a black/brown/blonde/whatever mess.
      I think how you carry yourself matters. I think it’s important to watch out for self-deprecating gray hair jokes. Chin up, walk proud of who you are. You wouldn’t make jokes about fat legs or big feet etc, so why mention the gray hair. I think if we act matter of fact about it, people take their cues from that.

    14. Silvernotgrey*

      I’m in my early 20s and I’ve got a grey streak. I don’t, and *won’t* dye my grey. My hair is clean, brushed, and tidy. I struggle to see how women who have greys are unprofessional- it smacks of sexism and control. How many C level men have grey hair?! Also, surely it’s better to have well kept hair with greys than a dye job where you can see the roots / dye fades etc? I’d have thought the latter was more unprofessional.

      Anywayyy, on a practical note, have you used purple shampoo? Mine is sometimes quite a dull colour but using that seems to perk it up, and makes it look nicer! I don’t use it every wash though, more as and when.

  54. Overeducated*

    First, the anxiety: I found a job ad that I swear is for a position my spouse applied for twice last year, in the kind of job where one organization doesn’t tend to hire multiples and there don’t tend to be a lot in one geographic area (e.g. Llama Curators). They hired someone else the first time since they asked for Llama Art & Natural History but hired someone else since he’s not a natural historian; the search for a more general Llama Curation position was canceled for unknown reasons the second time; and this time it’s written to ask for Llama Art & Llama Wool Conservation, which is his specialty! Of course I’m going crazy wondering if they liked him and rewrote it to give him a better chance, or if they liked what he does and thought “we’d really like someone with this background, but not him specifically, let’s cancel the search and see if we can get others more like him.” It’s been two years of searching for something permanent in this area, so my hopes are really up….

    Next, the maudlin complaining: this week the drag of working in front of a computer for the same 8.5 hours every day, plus commuting over 2 hours round trip, is really getting to me. I’ve been exhausted from after lunch onward and feel like my family’s not getting the best of me, I’m missing most of daily life and then I’m not “on” in the evenings. I don’t know if it’s due to the mornings getting darker, the wet humid weather, or lack of excitement and interaction at work, but it’s getting me down. How do you stand thinking of 30+ years more of this? How do you deal with the feeling of missing your kids’ childhoods? (Sadly, I can’t move closer and have a 10 minute commute because I’m not a millionaire.)

    1. gwal*

      I had that kind of overwhelming sense of dread/staring down a barrel once. I was clinically depressed and got help on that front. Just for what it’s worth, your mileage may vary, this is not a diagnosis, etc. Hope things get brighter for you in some way!

    2. Nita*

      I don’t know. I’m considering either getting therapy or going on medication, but am very doubtful it will help. The circumstances still won’t change, therapy = more time away from family, and I don’t know how zonked out I have to be for medication to make me feel happy (probably zonked out enough to not be capable of thinking at all). Are your kids school age yet? The only good thing about the wacky school calendar is that unlike day care, there are little gaps all through the year, and I get to fill them. Of course no one just gives me time off work to hang out at home, but I’ve taken vacation days/worked from home/took the older kid to work a few times, and of course it’s all stressful and exhausting, but it’s better than having no time with the kids all year.

      But I only spent like seven weekdays of summer with my family, not counting weekends. The kids spent most of the summer indoors. That’s majorly depressing. There were circumstances besides work that caused this, so I’m trying to not think of it too much for now… but come next summer, if this happens again, I think something’s got to snap.

      1. Overeducated*

        Yes on therapy just being more time away from family! I only spent 5 weekdays with my kid this summer, *including the 3 holidays,* because I don’t have much vacation time built up yet. The fact that my job doesn’t offer paid parental leave is another depressing thing, all the time I take off for sick or vacation leave is time I won’t get paid if i have another kid who I’ll have to put in day care at 3 months and never see. I’d like to work from home more….

        Maybe we should move to Europe? Commenters here are always horrified to hear how little time off we get.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You might need some Vitamin D for starters.

      You stand 30 more years because things will change. It seems like they won’t but if you think of you ten years ago, you can see, yeah, life changes.

      Have a check up, make sure your heart and thyroid are behaving themselves.

      Two hours of commute time chews up a lot of life. Start thinking about ways you could actually change that. I get it, I have been on my own hamster wheel, wondering what age 50 would look like for me. When we decide to look for something different, we can probably find it.

      1. Overeducated*

        Vitamin D is a good idea. It’s been a hard adjustment to 100% office work and I may not get enough with so much less time outdoors.

        I’d like to change the commute but just can’t afford to live closer. New to my job so need to stick it out a year or two. Right now I bike to work 2-3 times a week and that helps a bit (but is exhausting!). I’m also applying to telework one day a week but it hasn’t been approved yet. May have to move further depending on where spouse finds a new job, i think if i lose biking I’ll lose my sanity.

    4. Anono-me*

      Do you need to stay in this job/career/geographic area?

      Maybe a different position could be found that is closer to home or allows telework or has more flexibility?

      What if your husband looks for something in a lower cost/high quality of living area that also has good career potental for you and your family moves there?

      Good luck.

      1. Overeducated*

        Sadly, this IS the different position, for a while – my spouse and I are very specialized and finding two jobs has taken us to very HCOL areas. I took this job for the stability as we were both on soft money before and someone needed to support the family when that ran out. I also had to give up on “passion” type jobs that didn’t pay enough and that makes me sad a lot lately. We’re both open to moving for the next job, but it’s very hard when you have two careers to balance and I guess I’m not optimistic we could both find jobs in a smaller, cheaper place.

        I’m working on partial telework, it’ll just be a day a week but I think it would make a difference.

  55. Leela*

    Managers who say “we need to have a meeting tomorrow” and then walk away without any context and refuse to talk about it when I ask, only to say “oh it’s just a regular check-in! How’s everything going?” when I show up…why? Do you have any idea how stressful this is?

    See also: on Friday, putting an unexpected meeting for first-thing Monday on my schedule without any clue as to what it’s about, even in the invitation

    1. Brelade*

      Yes! Or when they say ‘I’ll talk to you Monday about xx’ on Friday. No, talk to me now or just wait until Monday…

      1. Leela*

        or at *least* be like, “I need to talk to you on Monday about this report/an upcoming project/whatever”. Remember, you have all the context! All I have are blanks to fill in, and your secrecy and bringing this up out of the blue (instead of a regularly scheduled meeting where I know unexpected things could be brought up but seem less urgent because of the precedence) don’t give me a lot of reason to fill those blanks in with anything reassuring.

        1. twig*

          You could try asking about the nature of the meeting or “is there anything that i need to prepare for this meeting?”

          it might help — but I know the feeling
          I dread IMs from my boss that are only: “Sooo….” until I respond…

  56. Washi*

    The religious music song-playing letter today reminded me of something experienced recently – when I went into our local court to pick up a message license, the clerk person I picked it up from and filled it out with had a number of Christian…motivational objects? on her desk – little angels, a rock with “prayer is my steering wheel”, a bible quote, etc, and also had music playing the entire time we were there – children singing classic hymns.

    I found it really off-putting in a government office, and it’s definitely not the norm in my region. Are there any rules about what government employees can have on their desks or playing in the background when interacting with the public? This felt different from having an employee at a private company or even just in a back office where no one would see them.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      When I was state gov’t, we couldn’t have a Christmas party, because that was too close to religious. Instead, we had a Holiday Party. Generally, iirc, we couldn’t have absurd amounts of too political/religious-based/etc put up for the Public to view. If anything it had to be pretty generic. That went even for those who had offices that really weren’t up for Public Viewing.

      I was really, really off-put by the county office I used to work in saying a group Christian prayer over the Holiday Party lunch. Not that I dislike people praying in general, tbh I will happily join in prayer at any friend or family’s house…but it felt squicky to do at a gov’t office function. Especially when it was really, really Jesus heavy and took like 5 minutes to get through. It was in a public building, with the doors open, though it was only supposed to be for workers.

    2. Youth*

      I’m not an expert, but some quick research seems to indicate that religious expression by individual government workers in the workplace is protected–at least at a federal level. I’m not seeing anything that says it would be different if the public can actually see your desk. I think that the music-playing is a little aggressive and may infringe on others’ religious expressions or lack thereof, but from a legal standpoint it would likely be hard to argue that angels, most sayings, or most quotes are harmful or harassing to anyone.

      I’m super religious, though, and again not an expert, so you can take my response with a grain of salt. I’m interested to see if anyone has studied this.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Generally, it’s okay for an individual to have decorations, etc. The music is a bit iffier, since that’s more a ‘broadcast’ than a personal decoration. If it was office sponsored – hold music on the phone, in the elevator, then that becomes inappropriate (from a legal perspective, I mean)
      That said, a lot of offices are really oblivious when it comes to Christian expression of faith, because it’s so invisible/considered the norm (this is not okay, imo, but it does happen). I’ve been places where the manager basically said everyone had to be pretty vague and understated, regardless of their faith, but I’ve also been in state-run offices where the ‘nonreligious holiday party’ trivia game was about bible quotations, and no one had any clue why this would be a problem until I brought it up.

    4. LQ*

      The rules we have are if you have a private work space (on that is assigned exclusively to one employee (cube/office) that occasionally see by coworkers but not by the public you can decorate (as long as it isn’t offensive basically), but if you have a public workspace it has to be secular.

      As far as legalities or enforcement that’s different, but that’s what our rules come down to.

    5. Lily in NYC*

      My government office fired the president’s assistant for trying to convert everyone! She would give out bibles as gifts and would invite people to go to church with her every week. She was very pushy about it and used to live-stream some fundamentalist preacher at her desk while wearing one earbud. She used to preach and sing hallelujah songs on the subway during her commutes. We took the same train and I almost fell out of my seat the first time I saw her. She emailed me when we got to work and invited me to church that Sunday. I told her I was a heathen and to her credit, she laughed and left me alone for a few months.

    6. Belle of the Midwest*

      I am a Christ follower who works in a university and I do have a few postcards and stickers on my bulletin board that relate to my faith, but they are mixed in with posters of my two favorite musical acts, thank you notes from students, and a set of questions I ask students as part of my work. My coworkers know I am involved in a church and I am a staff advisor for a student-based ministry on campus, but other than, “It’s my Sunday to serve on the music team,” or “I have small group this weekend,” when asked about my plans, I don’t talk about it unless asked. Our end-of-the-year party is called the December party (though most everyone brings Christmas-y dishes and it’s usually decorated in a winter theme), and we also have Friendsgiving meal in November, where we play games after we eat. I’ve been here nearly 26 years and unless my supervisors are not telling me, I have never gotten any negative feedback over this. It could be because I believe that I should be living my faith more than talking about it.

      1. Earthwalker*

        Mostly it’s nice to be around people for whom faith is the central part of their lives, most especially people who live their faith rather than talk about it. There are just a few people who seem to be listening for one to say anything from which they can segue into a lecture about converting to their church right now. I find it uncomfortable to be around such ones.

    7. JCrane330*

      I work at government and I do see this from time to time as well. Most of the time I am not bothered by it, but there was one time I was put off by a certain quote. This one cubicle in a different office than mine had all these religious quotes and then this one, “Drama doesn’t just show up at your door You either created it, invited it, or you’re hanging out with it.” I just thought what if someone is going through something like sickness or death in their lives and saw this. This was also in the payroll office so any number of people from the company could see this day to day.

    8. Kuododi*

      I don’t know about specific rules one way or another regarding expressions of faith in a government agency. I can say when I worked at a state mental health clinic in ” The Buckle of the Bible Belt”, I saw all kinds of staff with a variety of religious ” knick-knacks”. Traditionally one of our male staff would be asked to lead a blessing before any holiday potlucks. (Coincidentally, no women, person’s of color, or persons of non- Evangelical Christian traditions were asked to pray.). I have always been deeply committed to my faith traditions, however behavior such as what I saw at that MHC was inappropriate to say the least. :(

    9. ..Kat..*

      I am amazed a coworker has not complained. The music sounds really annoying. Possibly, the music could be considered as inflicting religion on coworkers (IANAL). If in the USA, the music probably is illegal, but good luck getting it stopped.

      But, I think it is wrong to inflict one’s music on others.

      As a customer, you could complain to the manager, complain to some sort of government compliance agency, write a letter to the editor.

  57. Not a unicorn*

    So I have an interview set next week for a part time position for something that mildly interests me, but I’m trying to figure out how to balance it and my current job if I get it. My current job sucks with pay and hours (was sold as 40 hour weeks but in reality barely doing 30 hours) which is definitely not livable and even though they say it’ll pick up next month, I don’t like sitting around and hoping. But I also plan to enroll in a few college classes come Jan. so yeah, this will be interesting.

  58. Decima Dewey*

    This month my library system has had mandatory meetings combined with Implicit Bias training. Each job class had its own meeting, and the meetings were either at 9:45-11:45 or 11:45 to 1:45. With a two hour meeting, you run into the need to feed people. There are several ways to approach this: make it a brown bag affair, provide a generic lunch, announce that no refreshments will be served. What employers should not do is what mine did: provide managers with a lavish spread, give the people who run the circulation teams at each branch absolutely nothing (not even moving a water cooler from an office and springing for a sleeve of paper cups), apologize to the circulation team who got nothing (there was a flurry of complaints on email), and give all other job classes a plate with Hershey Kisses on each table.

    The Implicit Bias training was good and there was a good discussion. We saw the video that Starbucks commissioned after the incident in their Rittenhouse Square store and there was a good discussion. Librarians of color talked about being followed in stores, how they couldn’t enter a store with the hood on their jacket up, and other microaggressions. There were the usual suspects, who claimed that *everyone* gets followed in stores, so it’s not racial. Nope, they don’t. We were told that this was a safe space, and had discussions at our tables. One colleague at my table, who has had multiple problems with TPTB announced that she did *not* consider it a safe space and that she would not be participating. I couldn’t blame her, given that the person who could send anyone in the room anywhere was roaming all over the room.

    While the training was good, I’m not optimistic about the effect it would have. I’ve worked with people I know have taken Equal Employment Opportunity training, who only seem to have learned that you can’t ask candidates their religion, etc. The idea that you’re not supposed to use such information as a basis for deciding who to hire escaped them.

    1. Maya Elena*

      Sounds like that kind of training can backfire if it isn’t carefully designed, and create an adversarial atmosphere and airing of grievances rather than a “we’re on this together” feel.

    2. ginger ale for all*

      So they had training about treating everyone equally and they treated the circ staff as if they are lesser peons. Sounds familiar. Decades ago at my library, they gave everyone in the library a raise except for the circ people. All but one circ staff quit the following week.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      So… they are training not to have implicit e bias and then some people get meals, some people get nothing and some people get candy?
      I wonder what could possibly be the covert learning here. /snark

  59. There is a Life Outside the Library*

    We’re still waiting for my husband to be given a release date from his current contract…and it’s been a month. I know this won’t go on forever (they can only hold him another 30 days), but I’m kinda losing my mind.

    1. valentine*

      Why do you need him released? Is there a minimum notice period they have to give him or can they agree on day 30 as he walks out forever?

  60. Persimmons*

    Has anyone used Lynda tutorials since the major site overhaul/buy-out by Microsoft? My company was originally planning on ordering a few user accounts as a test run, but their pushy new “let us come give you a sales presentation before we’ll let you sign up” model is really turning off my management.

    1. Anna Canuck*

      My work tells us to use the library access that we get through our city library card. I haven’t yet, though.

    2. CBE*

      My public library gives free access to Lynda to anyone with a library card, and I can log in from home. Maybe that’s an option for you to test it out?

  61. Nervous Accountant*

    In a brand new episode of things that irrationally drive me crazy like last week’s open drawer.

    coworker borrows an umbrella from another coworker. CW brings umbrella back and doesn’t put it back at cw desk. They keep it at their desk…for as long as they can. umbrella owner inquires about his umbrella and we quickly point out it’s at borrower’s desk and he takes it. End discussion.

    Just drove me crazy that she didn’t give it back right away when she was done.

    1. HappyOwl*

      I don’t loan anything to coworkers anymore because it’s always taken me months to get thing back, and whatever I let them borrow is always damaged in some way. (One time I loaned an expensive thing to a coworker, and they ended up not using it, but they returned it missing the instruction manual and several important pieces. I had to keep reminding them to look for the missing stuff for two months and then they ended up just buying me a new one. Buying me a new one was “nice” but didn’t exactly fix the relationship.)

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        It depends i guess. Umbrellas are fairly common to borrow bc a lot of ppl forget to carry them. If it was mine I’d have no problem taking it back but it was someone else’s. Which is why my annoyance was irrational. Lol.

    2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      My manager took my pass from my desk once – without telling me, OR without putting it back – to use it to get back onto the work floor after going to the bathroom. I have no idea why she didn’t use her own, but she was batsh*t insane anyway. After thinking I was going nuts and thinking I had left it somewhere, she sheepishly gave it back to me THREE HOURS LATER.

      I was livid – thankfully she moved on a few weeks later and is now terrorizing a new place. But until the time that she left it was not a real positive and productive relationship, partly due to her very poor project management skills and partly due to the above.

      1. Arjay*

        I sometimes do the Sunday readings at church. This one Sunday, I put the book with the readings up on the stand and then went back to the prep room. I join the procession in, the priest does the opening prayers, I get up to read, and the book is gone. Poof. I look over at the priest and tell him the book is gone. We stare at each other for a few moments, pindering this development. Then suddenly, a parishioner six rows back in the congreagation says, “Oh, here it is!” laying on a chair beside her.

        Apparently our pastor (not the priest celebrating this Mass) had picked the book up from where I had placed it to refer to last week’s readings and then just randomly put it down on a chair.

        Oops.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        Aww glad it worked Out!

        The people in this situation are otherwise nice people so it’s not a ISSUE so to speak. Just something that drove me crazy and I thought it was funny I wa so annoyed by it

  62. Persona 2020*

    Is there a better way to say , “The reason I am quitting this job is because I heard rumors that you were planning to fire me, but I can’t tell you who told me, because that would get them in trouble.”
    (Or should I just bring out the usual “Oh you know, I am trying to find a different path, build new career developments…”

    2. No need for the real reason*

      I would stick with the “moving onto new opportunities” version. There’s nothing to gain by stating the truth.

      1. irene adler*

        Agreed.

        Even if you never use these folks for a reference, word gets around- to the most unlikely of people. Like a future hiring manager.

    3. Aurélia*

      Maybe something like, “I heard general rumblings about layoffs and was approached with a wonderful opportunity while exploring other options in the event something happened”

      1. Persona 2020*

        Thanks guys. Whilst we do all yearn a tell all exit interview, I do needed the wake up call. The industry I work in is hella small. For all I know my new boss is my ex boss’s BFF. Honest is rarely the best policy in this case.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Yes, leave behind as pleasant a memory of you as possible. Thank them for the opportunity to work for them and learn from them. (Keep what you learned to yourself.)

  63. Nervous Accountant*

    Not as irrational as the above but would like people to weigh in —

    Am I being out of line here?

    New guy I talked about few times this summer (let’s just call him Fergus to make it easier) sent me a return. He then says “oh Glenn [his manager] told me to send you everything while he was on vacation.”

    Glenn never told him that. Glenn specifically told him in writing to wait til he returns–if anything is urgent, he listed me and 4 other people. It was over email, so no way he could have “misunderstood” that.

    On its own, I could let it go but given everything, it makes me dislike him even more.

    I look away when he’s near.

    If he comes to the lunchroom and he’s there, I walk out. One day, I sat down all settled in to eat lunch Glenn came and sat right next to me, Lots of other empty spots where he could have sat. Pissed me off so much that I packed everything up, and went back to my desk to eat.

    Petty? irrational?

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Okay, then I find this neither irrational nor petty. There’s no reason you have to be lunch buddies with someone who lied in an attempt to get you to do more work. Although I might have just stared at him for a second and then pulled out earbuds and very pointedly plugged in and tuned him out.

    3. Anona*

      Rather than doing your avoidance strategy, have you addressed it with him head on? If you have a copy of the email, I’d forward it to him and reiterate that you’re only to help in xyz scenario.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. “Fergus is this urgent? No? Remember Boss said to just hold on to the non-urgent stuff until he gets back?”

        Some of this stuff is better dealt with immediately rather then letting it fester in our brains. Just deal with it as it happens. Because, honestly, this stuff can eat us up. It’s not worth it. Fergus will be fine and you’ll be on ulcer meds. What I do with this stuff is to vow to never let it skate by me again. The next time Fergus dumps work in my lap, because he WILL, I am ready to remind him of how he is supposed to handle things.

        Lunchtime. “This is my quiet time. I prefer to sit and read now.” He’s going to be pretty slow picking up the non-verbals here, you may have to plan out what you want to say so you are ready in the moment.

      1. Ender*

        Yeah, over this one incident it seem way over the top. But then I haven’t read the previous posts so I don’t know what else he’s done to annoy you.

        Unless he’s done something so bad it breaks the law, looking away when he’s near and storming off when he tries to eat lunch with you would come across as really unprofessional in most offices.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          Well, I dislike him b/c he’s very pushy. Wouldn’t take no for an answer when it came to asking questions. and maybe a little bit sexist.

          He made a really stupid move with a client that could have led to issues for our company, which didn’t thank goodness. But he was upset that *I* got upset and when my mgr & I tried to talk to him, he flat out ignored me, and tried to deny what he said….despite saying it OVER EMAIL.

          Most recently, he dumped something on me and said his manager told him to do it, when that absolutely was not the case and we have it in writing that he was never told to do that.

          During his annual evaluation he was great with the (male) manager holding the meeting. When our boss came in, he gave her a super hard time.

          Not with me personally but he flirts with every female with a pulse. I’m not against office relationships/hookups but he’s just weird and from things I’ve heard, some women are uncomfortable around him.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        I can see i t as being mean.

        Well I silently packed up my things and walked away. No word. Keep a neutral facial expression (although I habe a big case of RBF).

    6. LilySparrow*

      It would be more productive and lower your overall irritation level if you gave direct pushback when he tells lies or tries to manipulate you (like by saying, “According to Glen’s email of [date], you’re supposed to hold this until he’s back. So if Glen wants to involve me, he can talk to me then.”)

      You don’t have to like people you work with, especially jerks. But this is high-school type behavior. “Punishing” him with shunning is projecting your personal feelings into a work problem. It’s not very professional, and it’s not going to solve the problem. If you accept and go along with his overstepping, and “compensate” yourself with passive-aggressive behavior, you are robbing yourself of agency. Just say no, and then you don’t need to act petty.

      You don’t have to like him, but this kind of thing is just pissing in your own bed.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        This is helpful, thank you.

        I do remember it being hurtful when I was frozen out and I had had no idea what I had done to make the people upset. I didn’t think I could do the mean-girl stuff, but I guess I did.

        He’s on a different team and he has 100 different resources to get the answer he needs, so we have zero need to speak to each other.

        1. ..Kat..*

          LilySparrow has some good advice on the work pushback. As far as eating in the lunch area, did he sit next to you to be obnoxious? When he sat down, did he give you a pleasant greeting? Anyway, you can partially block this by putting your purse/lunch bag/messenger bag on the seat next to you and have a book/tablet in front of you. Or your phone with earbuds plugged in.

    7. Anono-me*

      I would not leave a space when he decides to occupy it. That gives him too much power. I can see Fergus deciding to sit by you at lunch every time he sees you in the lunchroom so as to ‘make’ you pack up and go back to your office.

      From your previous posts, Fergus sounds like the kind of petty jerk that would enjoy knowing that he is in your head, but is too lazy to actively work hard at it. Don’t give him an extra inch of mental real estate. I would suggest coolly polite personally and CYA emails professionally, without voulunteering anything extra. ( “Oh you know.” and “Keeping busy.” work well as answers for many chitchat type questions. )

      1. ..Kat..*

        Or learn just enough about a subject (that you know he would hate) that you can bore him to death with it. For example, “I am dedicated to the cause of ameliorating the suffering from cat incontinence. Do you know the ten most common causes of this? No? Let me tell you about them…. And do you know about the sadness and depression that this causes to their owners? No? Let me tell you about this… I am committed to knitting cat diapers that are absolutely absorbent and non-stigmatizing to the cats. Let me tell you about the difficulties in doing this… I am accepting donations to pay for the yarn/supplies necessary to perform my mission.”. It has been rumored that I am not as nice as I was when I was young and a pushover.

    8. valentine*

      I’m proud of you for leaving instead of suffering. Looking away can be not staring and leaving the room can be a catlike need to be elsewhere. His behavior is sexist and you’re not obliged to interact with him on your breaks. Can your manager curb the sexism and, if she doesn’t know about him hitting on so many women, would it help to discuss it with her to nip it in the bud, as part of coaching him to start as y’all mean for him to go on?

  64. Grand Theft Passive*

    Do you guys ever have use a job interview tip, only to have it backfire on you?
    Recently, at the end of the interview, when prompted, I asked, “Is there any reservations you have about my qualifications?” The interviewer honestly looked a bit astonished and confused, and replied, “I don’t think so, everything looks okay…Why? What’s wrong with your resume?” I became very flustered at this unexpected reply. That had been an awkward note to end on! LOL

    1. Never*

      I once used the same question (different wording) and the interviewer either didn’t hear me properly or didn’t understand, which resulted in awkward confusion. I still got the job, though, so I guess it didn’t completely backfire.

    2. wingmaster*

      I’ve used that question before but in a different wording like: “Is there anything about my background or resume that makes you question whether I am a good fit for this role?” Luckily, it didn’t backfire on me.

    3. twig*

      omygodyes!

      My dad had told me once that one of the best questions that he, the interviewer, got at the end of the interview was something along the lines of “Is there anything that I could have done better/differently in this interview”

      I tried it once. ONCE.

      awkward confusion, rambling about other qualifications that would have helped me get the job.

      I realized afterwards that it came across as a defeated “I know I didn’t do well, what could I have done instead” question…

    4. Nita*

      Yes! I once dressed in conventional interview clothes (skirt, blouse, jacket top) for a construction-related entry-level interview. Went through the interview, told the guy about my classwork, which included quite a bit of field work, and then at the very end he goes: “just so you know, you need to wear jeans to a construction site. Are you OK with that?” WTF. Of course I was not wearing jeans right then, it was an interview. Bet he wouldn’t have asked a guy a stupid question like that.

      1. Kat in VA*

        It’s possible he would have asked the same question of a male interviewee wearing a suit or nice slacks and a button down, though?

      1. jolene*

        I don’t know why you think the interviewer wouldn’t have checked that a guy was okay with jeans too, Nita. I’m all about spotting sexism but I don’t see it in what you’ve reported here.

  65. Environmental Compliance*

    To the point of trying to figure out this stack testing issue by just banging my head against the wall and hoping an idea falls out. Oif.

    Otherwise, BossMan is being very laidback and helpful about my upcoming surgery, which has been great and very much appreciated.

  66. anon for this*

    A good friend/former coworker of mine is having an affair with a married, senior, person in her company. I recently learned that they are both using their company supplied cell phones to text each other. My friend has two phones (personal and work) while married coworker only has a work phone. My friend knows that the company only auto-archives emails, not texts, and believes that they are “safe”.

    Besides if my friend is terminated and the company gets the phone back, can some more tech savvy readers help me point out to my friend why it’s a terrible idea to use company supplied technology to have an affair with a coworker?

    (I’m very against the affair in general, and my friend knows this, so would prefer not to get into that aspect of it. I just want to help protect her job at this point and could use some supporting arguments on the phone part of it.)

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Texts can be retrieved and, depending on the levels of their security, they *are* being auto-archived.

      Just repeat that continuously.

    2. Temperance*

      Your friend is making bad choices, and you can’t do anything to help her make better ones. It doesn’t matter if she uses her personal phone to support the affair vs. her work phone, because the other dude is using his work phone, and it’s going to be obvious that he’s texting her.

      1. anon for this*

        Ugh I know you’re right. Of course this is eventually going to blow up in both of their faces, and unfortunately I think she’s going to be the one worse off when it comes to light.

        1. Temperance*

          Oh, she definitely will. If she’s lower-ranked, she’s easier to replace. Plus, well, sexism is alive and well …

    3. Ali G*

      At a minimum the phone number she is texting to/getting texts from is logged every time she send or receives a text.

    4. valentine*

      You might mention friend only knows what the company wants them to know and, even if friend knew no one else in the company would use the phones’ info to harm them, the list of people with access includes everyone everywhere they leave their phones. What if, for non-affair reasons, the phones become evidence? The weakest link is colleague’s dual phone use. The spouse may innocently answer/see the calls/texts. If management finds out about the affair, will they want to see a few timestamps/texts as proof, either way?

    5. Jennifer Thneed*

      > My friend knows that the company only auto-archives emails, not texts, and believes that they are “safe”.

      How does she know this? Is she in IT management? My guess is that she THINKS this is true because your employee handb0ok says that emails are archived and she assumed that since it didn’t say anything about texts, that they are not archived? (People are extremely good at coming up with reasonable-sounding reasons about why their stupid action is not really a problem, plus once we say something aloud, we’re extremely conditioned to believe what we said.) The best policy by far is to assume that anything you do on company equipment is recorded, and it might be kind of you to remind her of that.

      Also, I know someone who was carrying on with her boss, and they were both single at the time, and they did get married, BUT she honestly thought that nobody in their office knew. (They all knew.)

  67. HappyOwl*

    If you’re asked if you’re okay with a salary range (say $x to $x+$5k), is it okay to say “yes” even if you’d only be okay with the highest they might offer? Or do you need to say you’d only accept the highest?

    I just did a phone screening for a job where I’d only accept if they offered $x+$5k, so I’m worried that if I eventually got an offer of $x and declined because it was too low they’d feel like I’d been lying to them.

    1. Zuzu*

      I think you can let them know that you’re targeting the high end of the range. So for example, if they say, “our salary range for this position is 45-50k” you can tell them “I’ve been targeting $50 – 55k so it looks like we have some overlap on the higher end of your range, which I’m comfortable with”.

      Or, you can just say yes, and then when you get the offer, let them know you’re hoping for the 50k. Since you’re still in the range quoted, no reasonable company should find fault with that.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      You should absolutely tell them what your salary expectations are, because frankly it is practically unheard of for someone to get hired in at the max of the range. If you do, then there is no room for raises and such because you’ve already maxed. Rarely is the max of the range the max of the “hiring salary” range, it’s the max for that position at the company, which includes people who have been there longer than you. If you really wouldn’t take anything less than the max, you should let them know that. You don’t have to take yourself out of the running for the position, but set the correct expectation.

      1. AMPG*

        I’m an exception – my last two job offers came with salary offers that were above the stated range in an effort to match what I had been making previously, I assume because I crushed the interview. But I agree that you should let them know that your ranges only overlap at the higher end. I would add something about considering the entire salary and benefits package, if that’s true for you (since $X + 5K doesn’t mean much if you’re losing that $5K to a crappy health plan).

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        At my current employer, and others where I have worked, the hiring salary range is a subset of the salary range for that role. If we want a more junior person, the hiring salary range is in the lower half of the salary range for the role. If we want a senior person, it goes in the opposite direction. But we leave room for raises, and the salary range increases every year.

  68. Still new at this*

    I’ve just found out I will shortly be joining my coworkers on a businness trip to the US (Philadelphia, specifically). I’m a junior in the company so I’m going to learn and observe. But my question is, since I’m from the UK are there any cultural/etiquette rules I should be aware of?

    I have never been on a business trip before, nevermind to a country I have never been to before so I’m sure there is plenty for me to learn. I want to make a good impression!

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      We tip in restaurants, bars, bellhops, the housekeeping person who cleans your room (tip that one daily, not at the end of the stay as it could be a different person each day), taxi drivers.

      1. Sophie before she was cool*

        To be a bit more specific, you should expect to tip 20% of the bill at a restaurant, $1-2 per drink at a bar, $1-5 for a bellhop (depending on how much they carry and how far) and at least $1 per person per night at a hotel for housekeeping (FWIW I think it’s fine to tip at the end of the stay for housekeeping). I’m not sure of the etiquette for taxi drivers.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          The amounts are somewhat regional. I’m in Large Eastern City. Unless it is literally a beer where they’ve opened the bottle or pouring a glass of wine from the already opened house bottle, in a city I’d say $2 per drink is the minimum. If you are running a tab with your credit card or getting a bill at the end, just go with 20%, it is easier.

          I tip between 20 and 25% for taxi drivers, and I throw in a little more if they helped me with packages or suitcases.

          I have manye friends and acquaintances who have worked in hospitality and the housekeeping people don’t generally split tips and the schedules change frequently. If you want the person who did your room to get the tip, tip each day.

          1. Sophie before she was cool*

            I will fully admit to not thinking about daily tips when I’m rushing to get out of a hotel room in the first mornings of my stay! Thanks for the info and I’ll try to be more aware of it in the future. :)

            1. OlympiasEpiriot*

              I had to retrain myself on it, too, once I learned that. I also learned to always leave a “thank you” scrawled on a note with the money, otherwise they will not take it. Apparently hotels sometimes set traps of leaving money out and seeing if it disappears, so you have to make sure they know it is a tip.

              1. Natalie*

                A lot of hotels leave out a little envelope but you can also ask for one. But yes, if there’s no designated place to put the tip, put a note on it.

              2. ..Kat..*

                I set out the tip with a note the night before. For a business trip, I expect that the hotel is nice enough and the city is big enough that $5 is an appropriate tip per night at the hotel.

                If your business will reimburse you for tips, keep a log of what you tip and when and for what.

          2. SarahKay*

            $2 per drink, or per round of drinks? I mean, if I were in a bar with two colleagues, and went and bought three glasses of wine, would that be a $6 tip, or still just $2?

            Also, ouch, I have horribly under-tipped in the past because I don’t think I’ve ever left a tip for housekeeping :(

            1. OlympiasEpiriot*

              Per drink.

              Most of the places around here are going to be at least $7 for each glass of wine, probably more like $11-$14. If ordering wine with dinner, it gets to be part of the whole bill and I tip 20% on food and drink. If I’m at a bar, and it’s a one or two drinks over the course of a couple of hours and the bartender leaves me alone, it is $4 tip on the two drinks. Maybe an even $5 because I hate breaking bills for tips. If I hand over my CC at the first order for a round of drinks and run a tab, I’m going to tip ~20% on the whole, bartender did a bit more work with us, I usually get some snacks with drinks if there’s a group.

              Btw, I don’t include the sales/hospitality tax in the total that I use to figure the tip. I tip on the food and drink.

              1. OlympiasEpiriot*

                Oh, and my kid learned at their summer job (charter boat) that drunk people with cigars might tip you $20 for being on-the-spot at the right time and having a decent lighter.

                (I did constantly have a little *gulp* moment every evening they were emptying pockets at the end of the night and saw the lighter in the junk being dumped out. But, hey, they wanted tips!)

            2. Temperance*

              So I tip $1/beer or glass of wine or simple mixed drink, and $2 per fancy cocktail.

              The best part about Philly is that you can literally ask someone at the bar and they will tell you. Philadelphians are super helpful.

          3. twig*

            I’ll throw in: if you use valet parking tip a couple of dollars when you arrive AND when you leave — those are often two different people handling your car and they rely on tips.

        3. AnonFormerHousekeeper*

          Former housekeeper here: Please tip daily for housekeepers.

          Some coworkers will share tips, some don’t. In the same hotel, you can be shuttled from floor to floor, depending on who is on the schedule. Imagine cleaning 4 days in the VIP rooms, doing extra work with all that furniture and the extras, and then getting shifted to the budget rooms on Friday, and missing all of the VIP tips from those who tip only at the end. The worst is: if a coworker is sent to help you if you have a late checkout, they get to the room first, and they take the whole week’s worth tip for themselves… It happened to me more than once.

          It makes a big difference to tip daily, trust me!

          For the amount, one or two bucks is perfectly reasonable if you’re a human who uses their room in a conventional way. Always tip extra when:
          -You have a bodily fluids situation anywhere but in the toilet. (Please, for the love of God, don’t try to hide it with the towels or sheets! Just call and we will clean it, and then we won’t have to replace a bed, duvet, and bedclothes!)
          -You’re ill
          -You call housekeeping with several requests
          -When you have a pet in the room. Tip all the money, please!
          -You make a big mess (I’m looking at you, Cheetos-covered-floor family of four. With a dog. I literally had to vacuum the entire floor twice before I could do any cleaning, then once more. And this was in the middle of their stay…)
          -You request a very late checkout

    2. AnotherAlison*

      At my company, the most senior person buys the meals and drives, even though you would both be expensing it to the same cost bucket anyway. Different companies probably have different little internal things like that you would want to know, or at least use this as an opportunity to ask the coworkers about.

    3. Reba*

      Apologies for not answering your question — but I hope you get a chance to try tomato pie! It’s a regional specialty of Philly and much better (controversial opinion?) than a cheese steak.

      As a person from the UK I’m sure you will get a kick out of the US interpretation of the American revolution, which is everywhere in Philadelphia.

    4. Anono-me*

      There are a couple of things many first-time visitors don’t know about Emergency Services.

      If you are in a vehicle and are pulled over by law enforcement, stay in the vehicle until instructed to get out by the officer. Keep your hands in plain sight at all times and move slowly.

      The Emergency Services phone number is 911.

      I visited Philadelphia as a tourist a few years ago and had a wonderful visit. It is a beautiful city with lots of culture and history and many significant American historic sites. I hope you have a wonderful conference and learn a lot. If you have any free time, I suggest visiting the Rodin Museum and the Rocky Steps.

    5. SarahKay*

      I don’t know about Philadelphia, but I do know that in many places traffic can still turn right, even on a red light, (the UK equivalent of turning left on a red light) so be careful crossing the road. As a UK-er myself that nearly got me splatted!

      1. regular poster going anon for Philadelphia*

        Most Philly intersections have signs forbidding this, but of course in tourist areas you also have a lot of tourist drivers who aren’t paying attention, so you should still be careful.

        Museum-wise, I recommend the Barnes Foundation (read up on its backstory and reserve timed tickets before you go) and the Mutter Museum. FWIW, the Constitution Center is kind of aimed at 8 year olds. The Museum of the Revolution is brand-new. I haven’t been yet but the collection is from a nearby historical society so it may not be earth-shattering for the price.

        Foodwise, Reading Terminal Market. If you’re a real foodie, try to eat at the bar at Zahav or Vedge (you probably can’t get a reservation).

        One of my favorite things about Philly is how easy it is to get almost anywhere you want on foot. Keep an eye on for smaller streets (some people call them alleys, but that makes them sound like they’re full of trash bins… they are real streets that just aren’t very hospitable to cars–a UK person might think of them as mews). I always walk on these little streets when I’m near them because they often have beautiful old houses and interesting secrets. The most famous are Elfreth’s Alley and Quince St.

        Depending on how much time you have for fun, NYC is a quick trip by bus and you could save a lot of money by making it an (admittedly probably kind of overwhelming) day trip.

    6. Mrs. Badcrumble*

      It’s Philadelphia. To be honest, we don’t have a tremendous amount of culture or etiquette to worry about, although definitely avoid making any disparaging remarks about the Philadelphia Eagles (football team). For transport around the city, I’d recommend taxis, Uber, or if you are in the Center City area, walking. Definitely skip taking public transport unless you have a native guide — I’ve traveled in lots of cities and our public transportation system (SEPTA) is easily the worst. It’s almost deliberately terrible. Poor signage, terrible ticket machines, appalling on-time stats (like, makes Southern Rail look good), general filth, etc. That said, also skip eating our “regional specialties” like cheesesteaks. We have an incredibly good foodie culture — tons of great restaurants, plus a really good culture of craft beer, wine bars, and craft distilleries (…well, vodka and gin, anyway). Do get to the Reading Terminal Market if you have the time. And enjoy Philadelphia!

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Well, I haven’t gotten to try them yet myself, but, I’ve been told that the interpretation of cheesesteaks at The Better Box is fantastic. (Cheesesteak eggrolls.)

      2. Temperance*

        I’m going to chime in and say that Uber/Lyft > Philly Cabs. If you have to take taxis around, avoid 215-Get-a-Cab. They are by far the filthiest that Philly has to offer. I’ve seen their drivers smoking IN the cars, and the last one that I was in smelled so bad that I held my breath.

      3. Bess & George*

        What? I deliberately commute by bus and El. It’s fine. In Center City in particular you’ll have no trouble, and the busses go all over the region (including the airport).

        If you have time, definitely go to Independence Hall. You get tickets at the visitors’ center but they’re free and it won’t take too long. The liberty bell isn’t worth it though. If you have time the Philadelphia Museum of Art is great, and it’s by Fairmount Park, which is also beautiful and has a great river walk.

    7. Nanc*

      I generally tip bellhops $1/bag. For housekeeping put the tip ($2-5/day depending on my needs!) in an envelope, write Housekeeping or Room Attendant on it and leave it on the dresser. Most hotels in the US still have envelopes and letterhead in a drawer or you can just bring along a few envelopes. I’m always ridiculously prepared so I make sure I have the cash for hotel staff to hand at the beginning of the trip–I keep it in a separate place!

      You may already know the vocab differences but just in case:
      Elevator=Lift
      Lift/Transport=Ride/Taxi/Uber/Lyft
      Wash cloth=Face flannel
      Sweater=Jumper
      Have a wonderful visit!

      1. SarahKay*

        One more on the vocab – if for some reason you visit someone in their home and they say “Would you like to wash up before we eat?” they’re not asking you to do the washing up (wash the dishes), they’re asking if you’d like to have a quick wash (hands, or hands and face) before eating.

      2. Business Librarian*

        Recently I’ve upped my bag handling tipping to at least $2 and sometimes $5. I do this because I tipped $1 in the 80s and a $1 in 1980 would be $2.97 now.

    8. Ali G*

      Enjoy Philly! It’s a great town (I am definitely biased, but whatevs).
      Others had good suggestions.
      One thing that always tricked me up when in the UK is because, we drive on opposite sides of the road, is crossing the street as a pedestrian. Here (US) you look left first because that’s the where the car closest to you would be coming from.
      If you want something you can’t get anywhere else, go to Reading Terminal Market. There is a place there called Dinnick’s. Get a shaved pork sub with the sharp provolone.

    9. Temperance*

      I’m in Philly! It’s a great city. Not knowing where you are, here’s a few unwritten rules that just kind of make sense here:

      1. Walk fast or step to the right/out of the way. People here tend to move fast and don’t realize it until someone else comments.

      2. Philadelphians are largely kind and helpful. If you need directions, it’s fine to ask anyone, including cops. There are these mini maps attached to a lot of telephone poles in Center City that will get you where you need to go.

      3. For good coffee, La Colombe.

      Of course, these are city rules. If you’re in the suburbs, it’s a little different. Our public transit system is okay but the SEPTA employees can be rude and unhelpful unless you’re on the Regional Rail to the suburbs.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        La Colombe is THE BEST. They started opening several stores in NYC right around the time I left and it made me sad.

      2. Temperance*

        One caveat: if you look like a nice person or make eye contact with strangers, panhandlers will target you. You’ll hear some sob stories, but don’t fall for it. If you have good RBF, feel free to rock it, lol.

    11. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Make sure you get your ESTA squared away before leaving (you may have a corporate travel dept doing this, but just in case…) if you haven’t visited the US before as it is mandatory and must be completed before departure. It has to be done online, costs $14, and lasts two years. Moneysavingexpert has the low-down on this.

      American business thinks nothing of burning through a breakfast meeting, so you could potentially have one of those – it will be a spread with muffins/juice/pastries etc. Like a working lunch just earlier in the day than usual in the UK.

      For the flight over – its not a massive long haul like it would be to the West Coast, but you will want to wear something comfortable but still professional. Depending on how many days you are going, you may want to pack everything in a carry-on or bring one formal outfit in a garment bag on board if you are checking the rest of your luggage. Definitely carry on work laptop, water, any important documents, etc.

      Philly is a great town though, its one half business and one half university. I really enjoyed my one trip there, far more so than the one day I spent in NYC!

    12. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Just a little extra tip – most of Philadelphia’s streets are based on a grid system. Numbered streets run north to south (eg, 40th Street is 20 blocks west of 20th street) while streets that run east to west directionally are named, often tree names.

      Especially in center city you know first street and walnut (by Delaware river) is about 22 blocks from 22nd and walnut (Schuylkill river and West Philadelphia/university city).

      22 US blocks is about 2 miles or little over 2 kilometers.

      Schuylkill river park is a nice biking/jogging path off the roads.

    13. Jaid_Diah*

      Ooo, ooo! I’m in Philly!

      If you have time and you’re staying in Center City, please go to the Reading Terminal Market. And Chinatown is right there a couple of blocks away.

      https://www.visitphilly.com/articles/philadelphia/breakfast-near-pennsylvania-convention-center-philadelphia/#vp-article-section–item-8 I’ve been to the Dutch Eating Place and Bank & Bourbon. Yum. Though the hotel ones are the ones that open super early, like at 6:30 am. I don’t know how y’all are going to handle meals

      I was going to recommend using SEPTA (lifelong rider, never got hassled by a driver or passenger), but there was a viral video a couple weeks ago where bedbugs were emerging from the cloth covered seats on a bus (ARRRHHGGGGHGHGHHGHGHG). Keep in mind that Philly does have bedbugs and protect yourself.

    14. ..Kat..*

      Put Lyft and Uber on your smart phone. Driving is a pain, especially when where you live drives on the other side of the road. When you check in to your hotel, get a business card with the hotel name, address, and phone number and keep it on your person. If you get lost, you will need this information. Americans think British accents are charming. Feel free to use this to your advantage.

  69. Ahhh!*

    Anyone have advice for staying on task with emotional issues due to problems at home going on? I’m tired of these problems setting me back on what I want to achieve for myself. Nothing too serious, but being upset still causes me to miss out and spend less time on things I need to do.

    1. Nita*

      Oh, of course… it’s hard to focus on work when you’re upset about something at home. I always have a hard time just staying in the office when that happens. The whole time, I’m watching the clock and fighting the desire to drop everything and run home to set things right. And never mind after-hours networking type stuff, don’t want to even think about it when there are problems at home.

      The only thing that sort of helps me focus is if I tell myself that I’ll walk out of the office at 5 o’clock and not a minute later, and then push everything to the back of my mind until five. I also try to take advantage of good days to be extra productive… Nothing serious going on over here, either, but at least once every couple of weeks someone will thoroughly ruin my morning and (if it’s one of the kids) make me feel so guilty about going to work that I question everything I’m doing.

    2. motherofdragons*

      I’ve totally been here, very recently actually. My first piece of advice is to go a bit easier on yourself. When you have heavy emotional stuff weighing you down, it’s entirely understandable that you won’t be up to your normal, productive standard. So, cut yourself a bit of slack.

      Second, times like these are when I amp up all the staying-on-track things. I write down every task that I *need* to accomplish that day, and all their steps. I block out time on my Outlook calendar to work on them, and set reminders for myself to move from one task to the next. I hide my phone from myself (so I’m not obsessively checking for text alerts or passive-aggressive Facebook statuses). I play instrumental music. Whatever helps you focus, put it into overdrive.

      A great tip my mom taught me is that if you’re in an emotional place and need to cry, schedule yourself some time to do it. Say it’s 1:30pm, and you’re a mess…tell yourself that at 2:00, you’re going to find a quiet, private spot and you’re gonna give yourself 5 minutes (max) to cry your heart out, but in the meantime you’re going to focus on your work or whatever. Then you go and have your cry, and at 2:05, you’re gonna get yourself together and go on with your day. I have always found that if I give myself permission to cry later, I can usually get through that hour or half hour or whatever. And, I nearly never need the full 5 minutes to get it all out before I feel a little better/more able to get on with things.

      Good luck!

      1. Ahhh!*

        This is such great advice, thank you! I feel like I’ve got this! 1. Give myself some slack 2. Write down what I need to do 3. Set aside time to worry in. I think giving myself some slack will help a lot actually, somehow being hard on myself for it makes it even harder!

    3. ..Kat..*

      Can you compartmentalize? Tell yourself that when you are at work that you don’t have to think about or deal with personal problems?

      1. valentine*

        If you have something that puts you in work mode, maybe make a ritual of it, like Mr. Rogers walking in and changing from jacket to sweater and changing shoes. As you leave home, visualize leaving the home stuff in the home in-tray. When you get settled at work, focus on the work thing (bag/shoes/key) for a few seconds and visualize a heartache-free zone until you cross your home threshold. (If this works, it can also work at home. You can set/keep boundaries around tackling that in-tray.)

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed with compartmentalizing. What I did was I told myself, “This is my down time/vacation time from X problem. I have a legit excuse not to work on X or think about X because I am at work now.” I got so I could kind of con myself into relying on work time as my emotional/mental break from dealing with X.

        Finally, I worked my way over to a sarcastic chuckle when I realized that work was so damn easy compared to life.

    4. Wishing You Well*

      More physical movement helps me especially walking outside, BUT if you’re stuck in one place, standing, then sitting or swaying or stretching could help. Try to walk to the printer/water fountain/restroom for a break.
      Sending you my best wishes.

  70. Worried*

    Aw man. I just ended an interview today. It needed us to write an essay on “Do you think Gotham’s Capes are world class? If they aren’t, how do you think we can do better?” (Information altered of course)
    I basically wrote a short essay on why their capes are the best – because the material is great, they look cool and such… But now that I think back, should the correct answer had been “they are good, but if we did X, Y and Z it would be better”?

    Argh I am so worried! I went the complimentary route because I once failed an interview when I replied the “do you think we can do better?” question honestly, but now I am worried I got it wrong!!!

    1. Kes*

      I would probably do a mix – I would say they’re world class if you think they are, and then highlight what you think are the strongest points and a few areas in which you think they could improve even more (ie, provide analysis but keep a positive tone overall)

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Is is possible they don’t care much about the answer (as long as it wasn’t terrible) but were just making sure you could write coherently?

  71. Nessun*

    We recently hired a contract worker to cover a maternity leave, and the relationship between her previous department and mine is a little worrisome to me. Background, she was a temp with a department from Jan-Aug, did fine work, everyone liked her. When her contract was up, we were looking for someone to cover for a mat leave in my department, and she was recommended by her boss, who had no role for her but wanted to keep her in the company if possible (for future opportunities). We were thrilled to get someone with previous exposure to standard processes and company culture, and she sounded like a great fit – we made an offer, she accepted, all good.

    My department works across the country and I’m not in her office location, so instead of reporting to a local contact, I am her direct supervisor, in a different time zone and city. She’s adjusting very well to the spread-out nature of our group, and her work is excellent. My worry concerns the department she was with previously. They did not hire a replacement for her (just decided they “didn’t need someone full time”, OK fair enough), and they are all in her local office. Of course now they’re bringing her things and saying, “Can’t you just help with this/one off request/small thing you did before”. My directive to her is that she needs to focus on learning about my department and training in our specific processes, and she needs to tell her old department that they must speak to someone responsible for workload management for their location in order to get assistance. OldGroup does Not like to be told she can’t help, and are pushing back on her.

    I’d be okay with it if I knew the requests would taper off, but they’ve learned to go to her and they’ll keep going to her if there’s not a hard NO, because there’s no one else assigned to that work. Managing this when I’m not in her physical location and that department barely knows I exist…is frustrating. I’m trying to be supportive and provide scripts to her when people from her old department bring her requests, but I’m wondering if there’s anything else I can do. I don’t have much capital with her boss, who is aware of the situation and understands my point of view, but seems to wish I weren’t so bothered about other departments using a resource my department is paying for!, and the time difference/location are issues. It’s such a slippery slope from “just this once” to “how come you can’t do what you always did for us”, and her contract with my group is 14 months, so I need to nip this in the bud now. Any suggestions would be helpful!

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Is there any way that you can speak with HR and ask them to step in and explain that your contractor now comes out of your budget and the other department needs to seek approval for using her for any additional work?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Of course they don’t need someone full time; they’re using yours!

      I suggest you instruct her to tell them, every time, “Nessun is my manager, and she instructed me that all requests for my work need to go through her. So you’ll need to ask her if I can work on this.” If they push, she can respond “I’ve been told not to do that. You don’t want me to get in trouble, do you?”

      1. Nessun*

        Thanks – that’s very similar to the script I’ve given her to work with. I think I’m struggling with the response she’s reported back to me, which is “who the heck is Nessun”. I have made it clear that she can absolutely throw it onto me; my shoulders are wide, and I made the call, so if they’re annoyed, I can take it. I just worry that there’s no authority behind my name, since they don’t know who I am. Upon reflection though, they HAVE heard of my boss – perhaps I’ll add his name to the script!

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          “Who the heck is Nessum?”

          “My manager. Email your request to me, and I’ll forward it to her and see what she wants me to do about it.”

          “Oh, but this will just take a minute/But I need this done immediately/But you do this so well/other excuse…”

          “Well, like I said, email your request to me and I’ll forward it to my manager, as I’ve been instructed to do.”

          I wouldn’t have her use your boss’s name unless she can legitimately say “Nessum and BigBoss have instructed me to do this,” because it could get really awkward for her if someone goes to BigBoss and he doesn’t back you up.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      I don’t think it’s fair to make her be the one to push back with her old department – that’s not a feasible course of action. Someone in a position of authority needs to put a stop to it with former dept. Are you not able to speak to them yourself or does it have to be her boss?
      If that’s not possible, maybe a stronger script is needed that says something like “I have been spoken to about this and am no longer allowed to do favors for OldDept. Please stop asking me or I will get in trouble”. Or tell her to say “Hold on, let me call XX to see if that’s possible”. And then she calls you and you say No on her behalf. If you aren’t around, she says “Let me get back to you on that”, and then you email the person and say you can’t spare her at this time”.

      1. Nessun*

        Unfortunately the nebulous nature of the giant company we’re part of makes it hard to identify one person in their group I can talk to – and they don’t fully acknowledge any authority on my part. I can work on changing that, but it’s slow. Ideally, I’d have her send people to me for the discussion (my resource, back off, shoulda made her an offer when you had the chance!), but the difference in locations makes it complicated.

        I will definitely ask her to say “Let me get back to you on that” for any conversations where she feels there might be push back. I’d like to empower her to just say no; I think what I’m really struggling with is the balance between giving her authority over her workload based on our department’s needs, and wanting to just cover her with a company-wide email to say she’s ours, leave her the heck out of your plans. I shall try to think about it as a positive in future – everyone wants her, and we got her, so good for us!

        2. Ama*

          Being in different locations makes this harder, but I got put in the contractor’s position once — I worked for a school funded entirely by one major foundation. When we jointly held a fundraiser for the school, I helped out the foundation’s staff with a few administrative things — suddenly, long after the gala, the foundation staff had decided they could just forward me random projects to take care of, not asking, either, just sending me the task and saying “we need you to do this.” My boss told me I could just email them back and say I didn’t have time to help them with that but that only got trained them to put “if you have time” in their requests, they were still emailing and calling multiple times a week. I think they were actually asking me even *more* because they just figured they’d see if I had time (it didn’t seem to phase them that I never did).

          Finally my boss said to not even respond to them directly, but to forward the next request from them directly to her. I’m not sure exactly how she went about it but she clearly said something to someone over there, because the requests stopped. So maybe you can have her do something like that — don’t even respond to them, just forward the requests to you and then email the offending person in the other department and say “she’s got plenty of work on her plate from us right now, she’s not going to be able to assist your department any longer.”

    5. Free Meerkats*

      If your boss will do it, an email blast to everyone in that department telling them that all requests need your approval would probably be the most direct and effective way to do it.

      Of course, you can always go tactical nuke on them and fly across the country to read them the riot act in person. And also meet your report and give her confidence that she can use a hard “No” and you’ll have her back.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. This. The nature of this problem is such that you need your boss’ intervention. She needs to instruct the other manager to tell their people to back off now.

        You might try weekly check-ins with your subordinate to see how it went this week with all the extra requests. Explain to her that she has enough work for your department and you really need her focusing on that. Then ask her if she had any problems getting the NO across to other people this week.
        I think the weekly check-in will emphasize that you are serious about this.

        But def loop in your boss and let her know there is an issue here. Seriously consider asking her to step in.

    6. Dr. Anonymous*

      Can she ask them for a charge number for your department to bill their department? “I am happy to do this. I just need a charge number since I’m under contract to Nessun’s department now.” Of course if they come up with one you have to find a way to limit the hours they get, but they probably won’t.

  72. Barrel O’Sunshine*

    I have a dilemma and could really use the advice of the AAM community. I’ve been at my job for over a decade. I generally like my job and coworkers but recently management has made a series of baffling financial and personnel decisions and I think it’s time to start looking before things get really bad. My question is how do I address the question of why I’m looking for a new job in interviews? I don’t want to talk negatively about my employer but I know it must look strange to interviewers that I’m looking for a new job after staying at the same place so long. Any advice on how to handle this?

    1. Gaia*

      I actually think you have a ready made answer “I’ve really enjoyed my time at company x but have decided it is time for a new challenge and so I was really excited to see this position because if A, B, and C.

    2. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      Some variation of “I realized it’s time for a change” would work here, I think. Nothing fancy, and the added benefit of being truthful!

    3. Lily in NYC*

      You’ve been there over ten years – you don’t really need a reason other than “I’m ready for a new challenge”.

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      You can say diplomatically that management has made some changes and it is no longer in line with your career path. I have said this after leaving someplace where we had a big change in management and it was no longer a good fit for me. It’s honest and no one has ever held that against me (as evidenced by the job offer I got yesterday!). If pressed, you can say things like they were taking the department or company in a different direction that changed your job duties (“reorganization” sounds good when you’re talking about personnel changes) and that you no longer felt like it was a good fit, combined with the fact that you’ve been there for so long and are interested in seeing what else is out there and having some new challenges. Then redirect your answer into what it is that you WANT to be doing, the things that excite you, etc.

      A… not great interviewer might press you to try and get you to say something negative, but really that’s not a good sign. I wouldn’t want to work with someone who actively tried to get me to speak negatively and in an unprofessional way about my colleagues, regardless of what was going on.

    5. Bea*

      Very breezy and simply “it’s time for change, I’m happy but looking for something new that can increase my experience and a place who can benefit from my knowledge.”

      Don’t bring up the weird financial stuff. It’s too personal to the company. Unless it worries you about stability. Then by all means saying they’re going through changes and you’re looking for stability works.

    6. Barrel O’Sunshine*

      Thank you all so much! These are great answers. I’m feeling so much better about my job search now.

  73. Rusty Shackelford*

    Question for the U.K. folks… on a recent podcast, someone referred to cubicles as “those things in offices in America.” (waves to fellow Belinkers.) Are cubicles not a thing in the U.K.?

    1. Not Australian*

      Yes, they are – although they’re not as all-pervasive as they are in the USA. It depends on the nature of the building and the nature of the work whether or not they’re suitable for the purpose, that’s all, so I’m sure there will be some people who never encounter them at all.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I think that would make an excellent series of reader questions, although every answer would be “your manager/coworker is batpoop crazy.”

    3. CTT*

      You know you’ve listened to that podcast too much when “Helga is FBI” was a shrug, but them not knowing about cubicles made me double-take.

    4. Ender*

      They’re not totally unheard of, but they aren’t common. I first saw them when I visited the US. I thought they were really creepy tbh I felt like I was in a horror movie. They were 6 feet tall and I’m short. I was in that room for the entire day and I could hear other people: being quiet, but I knew they were there. But I didn’t see a single person from when I entered the room in the morn to when I left in the afternoon. I really didn’t like it and I hope they never catch on over here.

    5. Cambridge Comma*

      I’ve never seen cubicles in real life, though I’m sure they are in use in some places in the UK.
      I don’t think Steel’s would use them, though, as a lack of privacy seems to be an important part of their office culture.

    6. Marion Ravenwood*

      Cubicles are a thing, but I’ve only ever worked in one place that had them and then only in certain departments, so I’m not sure how common they are generally.

      Also, re: Belinda, I’m relatively new round here but I’m really surprised that no-one has used ‘Belinda’, ‘Tony’, ‘Giselle’ etc for their colleague’s codenames AFAIK.

    7. Jemima Bond*

      I’ve never seen one in real life either; only ever on American tv programmes/films. I’ve always worked in open plan offices. Basically my standard idea of an office is like in the tv programme The Office (both UK and US versions, where the sets are very similar) – open plan with small groups of desks and cabinets for normal people, the odd glass-walled office for boss-types, a couple of meeting rooms and a kitchen/break room.

    8. Amandine*

      I’ve only ever seen them on TV and in movies. None of the offices I’ve worked in, visited or heard of in the UK have had them. I’m sure there must be a few places that do, but no one I know has ever worked in one. It definitely seems like a US thing to me.

  74. Monty and Millie's Mom*

    I love my company! I do NOT love my role here, it’s a really bad fit. I’ve been looking for other opportunities within the company for the past year, but haven’t had any luck until recently. I applied for one, which I was rejected for as not being qualified (technically true). There’s another I’m interested in, and qualified for, and I made inquiries about job shadowing to see if I’d like to pursue it. But. I was put on an “action plan” (PIP) last month – not unexpected, due to the bad fit of the job. So basically I was told that, although being on the action plan wouldn’t be counted against me if I transferred to another department – it’s actually because of the action plan that they don’t even want me to pursue this at all. I can’t help but feel upset by this (went home at lunchtime specifically to cry, actually). I know I’m on thin ice, but I’m also being told that except for this one performance metric I’m struggling with, I’m just a great employee and my supervisors are constantly telling me that they enjoy having me work for them. I’m just so disappointed by this. If I’m such a great employee, wouldn’t it be in their best interest to see if they can retain me in another, better capacity? So, really, they’re just blowing smoke and I’m NOT great, I guess. Except I AM! I know I am a great employee, but this is messing with my head. Don’t worry, I had an interview elsewhere yesterday and I’m actually pretty interested in the position, which makes me think I’m not going to get it because that’s my life lately. Ugh, I’m being ridiculous and not very coherent, and I’m so glad it’s Friday!

    1. Pip pip*

      I’m on a PIP right now too, so I feel your pain. I hope the interview went well, and best of luck with the job hunt!

      1. Monty and Millie's Mom*

        Thanks, Pip! I just needed to vent, I think. Good luck with your own PIP and have a good weekend!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It could be just me but my rule of thumb for the work world is to watch: Do their actions match their talk?

      “You’re a great employee, here’s your PIP.”

      In this scenario actions do not match the talk. My best advice is to move on, find another company.

      At best you have a very confused group of people, there is no way praise and a right up fit in the same conversation. That is, if you want to instruct the employee how to survive their write up, you are not mixing signals by adding praise to the mix. It could be that you have bosses who are afraid, you know, to lead people.

      Probably your assessment is correct, it’s just a bad fit, the work is not in your wheelhouse. Welcome to the human race, there are reasons why I do not repair cars for a living. Nor do I do surgeries, make concrete sidewalks and a whole long list of other things. There is no shame in not being able to do a particular thing, if there were then we ALL would be walking around with our heads hanging low.

      It could be that they basically like you. I have to say as having supervised people myself, it really sucks when someone you like just can’t do the job and I can see weird behaviors happening because of the internal conflict the boss feels.

      Don’t adopt THEIR confusion and make it your own confusion. Get a game plan and get yourself to a spot where you are having success. Don’t allow you to flounder and flounder.

      Mull this one over and see what you think: you deserve to have a job where you are successful, what will it take to get you there.

      1. Monty and Millie's Mom*

        Oh I totally agree! I’m interviewing other places, I can read the writing on the wall! It just sucks, ya know?! Had to vent!

  75. Anonymous404*

    Does anyone have any experience with moving to Canada from the US with dual citizenship? I grew up in the US but was born in Canada and am considering going back. I don’t have a specialized degree, but the field I work in is niche and I know it would take time to find a job (I would like to find one before I move). Any tips or tricks? How do I address it in my cover letter? I have an aunt I can live with if they need someone ASAP.

    1. Anna Canuck*

      No Canadian will wonder why you want to move here from America right now. We watch the news. I’d probably just reference generally that you’re “looking forward to returning to Canada” and that your resume indicates you can legally work here without any extra visas.

    2. Nervous Nellie*

      I can’t address all of that, but I am a dual living in the US. All I can suggest is that if you apply for Canadian jobs from the US, make clear in your resume (and maybe your cover letter?) that you are already authorized to work in Canada without any additional immigration processes needed from your employer.

    3. Anon From Here*

      Dual citizen here, lived in the U.S. all my life, f-cked off to Canada with Mr. Anon From Here in 2017.

      I didn’t land any interviews until we were living here, though I’d applied for a dozen or so jobs before we moved. Could be our location (Atlantic Canada), but I think it’s that employers were just mystified that there was this rando from the States applying for the job. I thought I’d made it very, very clear that I was legal to work in Canada, and that our arrival date was very certain. But -shrug- no takers until I had a local address and phone number.

      Then when I did interview, I had to confirm to the employers in person again that, yes, I am legal to work in Canada. Citizen and everything. So maybe put that in bold print at the top your resume and see if you can get LinkedIn to do the HTML blink tag.

      1. Anonymous404*

        Thank you! One of my old bosses told me I should go ahead and put my aunt’s address to get a better response, but am unsure how I could do that without it seeming like a lie. I don’t want to move without having a job lined up, but I am afraid of being stuck like you were. I will try to put it in big bold letters that I am a dual citizen, I will be applying in the Quebec province, looking at Montreal mostly. Hopefully it will help. Thank you so much for your advice!

        1. Anna Canuck*

          How fast can you be there if you have an interview? How fast can you move for an offer?
          Using a local address isn’t a lie if you can show up like a local and don’t expect relocation expenses (which can be the concern with interviewing people that are far away).

          1. Anonymous404*

            That’s a good point. I don’t know that I would be able to front the cost of a plane ticket right away since that can cost in the thousands if its for an interview. But I would be willing to do it for an offer (I have enough in savings to do so). Thank you!

            1. CaitlinM*

              Are you currently working? If yes and in a job that can’t/wouldn’t be done remotely, I’d question someone with a local address when their current job shows they couldn’t live at that address.

          1. Glomarization, Esq.*

            That is to say (hit submit too soon), when I’ve had U.S. clients asking about how they can get the heck out of Dodge. It assumes citizenship or at least work eligibility first. I’ve had a … disappointing number of clients come to me just kind of assuming that they can pick up and move to Canada, without laying any kind of groundwork for work authorization, where they’ll live, and how they’ll manage their finances if (when) it turns out they’ll have no income for 6+ months.

  76. LooLoo*

    What, if anything, would folks do regarding an occasionally difficult coworker?

    This person is VERY smart and driven with high standards. They are also very anxious and blunt and when things are stressful (which always happens around product launch time), they can become overly rigid and rude on top of everything else. 95% of the time I enjoy working with them, it’s that 5% where I just want to tear my hair out while I deal with rude repeated texts, emails, physically checking in, etc. when they are under stress and it can majorly disrupt my work to handle them.

    It’s also happened that I’ve had multiple vendors and other staff members approach me about this person and their behaviour and I’m not really sure what say or do. Our boss def. knows about most of their behavior, but I’m not sure if they’re aware that vendors are feeling frustrated.

    1. Reba*

      I think you can address the rudeness between you two for sure.

      I would share the vendor feedback with your boss, since they should know that their employees issues are leaking outside the team.

    2. LCL*

      The blunt person is not your boss, from your post. So, blunt people understand blunt. Call him on it every time he does it. ‘You sent me one text, sending me 5 more won’t make me go any faster. Neither will 5 emails in place of one.’ If physical check ins don’t work for your set up, tell him physical check ins don’t help. Everytime he comes to check in, tell him, ‘ETA was 30 minutes. Now that you’ve interrupted me, it’s going to be 45 minutes.’

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep.
        “That was rude.”
        “You are not the only one feeling pressure, there is no need to be rude.”
        “Take a chill pill will ya?”
        “I dunno if you noticed but you are the only person here who is [yelling, cussing, barking orders, etc]”

        Loop the boss in. Tell him about the complaints and tell him going forward you are going to ask people to speak to his boss not you. Whether they do or not remains to be seen.

        1. LooLoo*

          That makes sense to redirect people rather than make excuses (which is what I currently do). I can be blunt, but I think I need to rehearse some phrases. I’m generally not good at in the moment quips, but I don’t have a problem being upfront with this person.

  77. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

    About two months ago, my wife was offered a new job just weeks before we were going on a long planned vacation (a weeklong cruise). The company wanted her to start as soon as possible, but even though she told them about the vacation when she started interviewing (about five weeks before we were leaving), they did not make the offer to her until less than two weeks before our trip. Everything worked out fine, and she went for training two evenings a week and on Friday’s during her notice period, then started officially when we got back from the cruise.

    That said, we were wondering about how to deal with this if the company had absolutely needed her to cancel the vacation. We did have trip insurance, but non-injury cancelations had a $500 deductible (i.e. we could move the cruise to another date, but had to pay the cost difference plus $500). The new job was such that we would have absolutely eaten this cost if there were no other option (the new job is a significant step-up, a more stable company, phenomenal benefits, and more inline with what my wife loves doing). But, would it have been out of line for my wife to ask the company to cover the $500 change fee if they were absolutely insistent on her starting immediately? Again, this would have been starting incredibly quickly—they made the offer Monday night, we discussed it then and she didn’t formally accept until Tuesday after leaving work. If she’d gone to her boss the next morning and given two weeks notice, she would have only started three days earlier than she actually did.

    My thought was it wouldn’t hurt to ask them if they would be willing to cover the change fee as part of a sign-on package, but when she mentioned this to her father* he told her it would be completely out of line… Our other friends and family are somewhat mixed on the issue. Had it come to this, we would not have pushed the issue at all (and happily eaten the cost for her to have this great opportunity), but I’m curious how the AAM community thinks on this issue. Also, if anyone has ever done this, was there a specific way you asked for it?

    (** I don’t really take her father seriously on this issue because his views on vacation usage are completely bonkers. For example, he told us on our first anniversary that it was ridiculous that we had taken a vacation day for a three day weekend. I’m not kidding, he called us on our (first!) anniversary, then rather than congratulate us lectured us for not being at work and irresponsibly using PTO.)

    1. Temperance*

      I definitely think that it would be weird to ask them to eat the cost of the change fee for the trip. That being said, I also disagree with asking parents for career advice.

    2. Seriously?*

      I would say ask but don’t push and make sure to cite the short notice as the reason. I’m glad it didn’t come to that!

    3. Lily in NYC*

      No way could you ask that! Maybe if the candidate was a rare unicorn or C-level and you desperately need their skills. But other than that, no.

    4. Arjay*

      I definitely think you could ask. It would be pretty unusual for three days’ difference in start date to be significant. If it was truly significant, your wife would be going out of her way to accommodate that and shouldn’t have a financial hit from it.

    5. Jerry Vandesic*

      It would definitely be reasonable to give the new employer the option of picking up the cost of cancelling the vacation if they wanted you to start earlier. Let the employer decide if an earlier start is worth the money necessary to for the change. If they didn’t want to pay, then you would start after the vacation.

      That being said, I wouldn’t have given them the opportunity to pay the costs for a change in vacation. They were being unreasonable, and is a bit of a bad sign coming into a new job. They didn’t listen to you when you told them about the vacation, and they might very will ignore you in the future.

  78. Quackeen*

    Last week, I got some lovely support about my situation at my new job that has very little flexibility and how unhappy I am. I had 2 phone interviews this week, and both places have invited me to interview in person.

    In both instances, I know people who work at the companies and I have had conversations with them to get the inside scoop on the company culture so that there won’t be any surprises.

    I am finding, though, that now that the interview process is moving along, I’m feeling really anxious and guilty about thinking about leaving. As I’ve mentioned, my boss is a lovely woman in every way EXCEPT for the “butts in seats from 8-5, 5 days/week” way…Turns out that’s one of the biggest drivers of my work satisfaction.

    I’m hoping that I can calm the anxiety by remembering to take it one step at a time. I have a tendency to get ahead of myself and send myself into blind panics.

    1. Ama*

      The reason we talk so much about work culture and work styles here is because everyone has different things that work for them and different things that are just not tolerable. It is completely valid to say that your boss is great AND that her emphasis on a constant presence at your desk is a style that doesn’t work for you at all.

      I took a job once that didn’t seem that much different from my current job during the interview process — only it turned out that the “small amount of reception work” that at my old job was mostly emails, maybe a few calls a week, and next to no in person visitors, was at new job a constant stream of in person visitors and calls to the point that I couldn’t work for five minutes some days without an interruption. Turns out I really can’t deal with that kind of role; I need a position where I can really focus on a project for several hours at a time. But I beat myself up for a long time about being so unhappy at work even though it was a job with a lot of nice perks, until I started reading AAM and realized that “bad fits” are totally a thing and I was in one.

  79. Teapot librarian*

    Oh man, people are getting my goat today. First one of my employees had a mini-tantrum on a conference call (he has a complaint that we could have addressed 3 months ago when he first had it, but he didn’t say anything about it until now, when the project it’s related to has a hard deadline of 9/30). Then someone emailed me a “please call asap” email when I was in a meeting instead of just emailing the question, so that she and I both had extra stress to deal with. Then someone came to pick up mail from us (talk about inefficient) and no one answered the door. He only rang the bell once; how was I to know that no one had let him in? He emailed saying “I came, no one answered” to which I responded IMMEDIATELY “wait! I’m coming” and he drove away anyway. Then he came back and emailed “come to the door now” when he was still a block away. I know that I need to not let my goat be gotten because this is all stupid minor stuff that I’m devoting a lot of emotional energy to when I should be working on the project with the hard deadline, but that’s annoying me too, and NO ONE IS BRINGING ME CAKE. I hope everyone else is having a better Friday!

    1. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      I would be happy to bring you cake! Sorry you’re having a day like this – hoping the weekend is better for you!

  80. anonymous234254*

    I accepted a part-time job recently at a salary of $13.50/hour plus tips. However, when my first paycheck came, they’re paying me $10/hour. This is not only below what I agreed to, but below the local minimum wage of $13.25/hour. (There is a lower minimum for tipped positions, but since I get less than $3/hour for tips, I don’t think that applies).

    I’m going to push back on this (luckily I can afford to lose this job). What is the best way to do so?

    1. DivineMissL*

      I’d just assume there was a payroll error, and say, “Hey, it looks like there was a mistake made on my paycheck, how can I get it corrected?”

    2. Gaia*

      I would approach it as if it were genuinely an error (“I think there was some mistake on my pay. It was $10 an hour and we’d talked about $13.50. I’m also concerned this puts me under the minimum wage since including my tips I only earned $13. Can you help sort this out”)

      The key is to assume innocent error because it actually might be.

    3. The Doctor*

      I don’t see how this could possibly be an “innocent error” — it’s the company’s job to know what the locally legislated minimum wage is, and the payroll system should be set to disallow any hourly rate below the minimum.

      1. Reba*

        It almost certainly isn’t innocent — but the idea is you start out the conversation collaboratively, giving them a chance to come right and save some face.

      2. anonymous234254*

        The company is based out of a different city with a much lower minimum. So it *might* be innocent–anyway, there’s no harm in treating it as innocent until proven otherwise. Thanks for the suggestions!

      3. Gaia*

        It could be a spreadsheet error, it could be a payroll company error. It could be a literal typo. It is best to start with an assumption of innocence before jumping to malice in these contexts (if for nothing else, to avoid burning bridges unnecessarily)

    4. Troutwaxer*

      I would start by gently and politely speaking to your manager. It’s possible that they simply made a mistake, and also possible that they are paying you a “training wage” for the first 3-6 months and you didn’t understand for some reason – didn’t get the memo/didn’t read the contract carefully/didn’t realize what was entailed by certain bits of language. It’s also possible that you were told “around 13.50 with tips” and you misunderstood. Do you have a contract or other paperwork which includes your salary? If so, you’re in a much stronger position.

      Assuming that none of these things are the case, you should be able to escalate by politely explaining that you will not work for less than the amount promised, and need to be paid the proper amount. If there is not agreement, you can escalate to your state/local employment bureaucracy or the legal system if there’s enough money at stake. But assuming that there are not issues involving a lower training wage or some obvious misunderstanding, I wouldn’t stick around to be paid less – this is a circumstance where walking off the job is perfectly OK, though you might also consult the local employment bureaucracy before leaving the job. IANAL, but you might be giving up some rights.

      1. anonymous234254*

        Good points. There’s no training wage exception in our local law, and I do have proof that the job I applied for was $13.50/hour with tips. There was no contract and the written offer did not mention a pay rate, but the fact that I applied for the position at $13.50 and was given it with no mention of a lower rate establishes, in my mind, that I should be paid that rate. Of course, they could fire me, but even then I would have a right to be paid at that rate for the work I’ve already done.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          It sounds like you’re covered. Start by being polite about it and assuming that the company made a mistake. If not, consult with your local government employment bureaucracy and see if they can do anything for you. After that you can threaten to quit if necessary. The only reason I wouldn’t go to court is if there’s not enough money to be worth the hassle.

    5. anonymous234254*

      Thank you for everyone who replied! I sent a tactfully worded email today, and quickly heard back from the manager, who promises to get it corrected ASAP. Best possible outcome! I’m glad I didn’t dither too long about speaking up.

      1. Gaia*

        That’s great for you that it will be fixed AND that it does appear to have been a legitimate error. While they shouldn’t, these things can happen sometimes.

  81. LSP*

    I’ve been trying to get into non-profit work for ages. I have a background in government, so the transition shouldn’t be overly difficult for me. Except that I am currently working as a contractor for the federal government, and I am making contractor wages. When I look at salaries for nonprofits (even well-known, national ones) the salaries are literally half of what I’m making now. To be fair, some of those are likely below my experience level as well, but my worry is that without direct nonprofit experience, I’d be expected to come in at that lower level. I anticipate having to take some salary cut moving into the nonprofit field, but I don’t know that I can afford a 50% cut.

    I saw a job listing today for a local affiliate of a nationally recognized nonprofit, whose CEO I happen to know, and who I know thinks very highly of me. We’ve set up a call this weekend to discuss, and I’m just wondering if anyone here with experience in nonprofits has any advice that might give me some perspective upon entering job discussions with a nonprofit.

    1. Bluebell*

      The only thing that I caution you to do is not to have an attitude that you are taking a step down to be in a nonprofit. I think sometimes people transitioning from for-profit have the attitude that “well when you work in a nonprofit it will be a lot easier, the hours will be shorter, and it will just be more relaxed ” I hope it goes well!

    2. Ali G*

      Well as a contractor you are paying all your salary taxes, and insurance and everything right? Keep in mind that you are likely paying up to 40% of your salary to those things, that you will not have to pay for as a salaried worker, regardless of non or for profit.
      I’ve worked for NPs almost my entire career and have always been paid market value, had health insurance with very low premiums, 401k, generous leave etc. When you add all that up, compared to being a contractor, it might come out on the same plane.
      Good luck!

    3. Lily in NYC*

      You have to think about the $ difference as getting benefits, more job security, vacation time and all of the other perks that come with full-time vs contract. I work in at a quasi-governmental non-profit and we don’t base salary on direct non-profit experience – I would estimate that 80% of our staff comes from the private sector. I would think having federal government experience would be a huge plus.

      1. LSP*

        I guess I wasn’t clear. I am employed full time with a firm that contracts with the government. All my taxes and benefits are already taken care of, as I am not self-employed.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I don’t think you should automatically assume that you’d be forced to take a lower-level, lower-paying role just because you don’t have non-profit experience. 50% lower is a huge difference. I get paid slightly higher than market rate at my non-profit. The only people who don’t get market rate are the project managers who generally stay for 2 years and then go back for a grad degree – working here generally means you are guaranteed to get into the school of your choice so they are ok with not making as much for a couple of years because they know it will pay off in the long run. But for the people here who are in the “service’ depts, like legal, MIS, accounting, admins, etc – they all make market rate or higher. It really depends on the type of non-profit, I guess.

  82. Curious Cat*

    Super low stakes question: I’m going on a work trip to NYC soon and the coworkers I’m going with are seeing a popular Broadway show one evening together (they bought their own tickets). I couldn’t afford a ticket, so I didn’t get one to go with them. My boss just let me know that instead of a bonus to reward me for my good work this summer (they don’t have it in the budget…apparently), the company is going to buy me a ticket to the show so I can go with everyone else. My boss sent me a link to get the ticket and said in the email, “There are seats right in front and right behind us still open!”

    I took a look at the seats, and there’s basically a $100 difference between the front seats and back seats. I’m not sure why, but a part of me feels bad for choosing the more expensive seats (they’re more expensive than the ones everyone else bought for themselves) and I’m not sure she realizes the cost difference, but the other part of me feels like if they’re getting me a ticket in lieu of a bonus, I should get the better seats. Any thoughts from anyone on which seats I should go with?

    1. DivineMissL*

      Your boss offered either seats, so pick the ones you prefer! She probably saw the price when checking the availability, just like you did. If price was an issue, she would have only offered the cheaper ones.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Right, and by the time you buy the tickets the cheaper ones maybe all that is left. So the whole thing is moot anyway.

    4. Someone Else*

      What rows are we talking about? Closer is not always a better seat, but it depends on the theater and the set. (That said there are some people who always prefer front row) Anyway, that price difference is likely based on demand, so it doesn’t necessarily mean the closer seat is a better view, just that a lot of people think they are. It might be. If you know you tend to like to be closer, then go with the closer seat. But unless it’s one of the smaller theaters, if the closer seat is fourth row or closer (making the row behind them the sixth row at least) I’d go with behind. Unless you’re short and know your coworkers are way taller than you and would block your view by sitting behind them. Hope that helps.

  83. Linzava*

    So, this happened to my bf, not to me. Earlier this week, I was home sick and my bf, who works from home, brought me to the Dr and then went to the store to buy me chicken soup. He and his boss used to be friends and coworkers at another job. At current job, everything they discussed about the role ended up being untrue. My bf has been livid. My bfs work personality is good unless someone tries to lie to him or avoid personal responsibility, then he’s blunt. He has worked hard and is now in the position where he can walk away from a job and find another job fairly easily, very specialized in his field, less than 20 people on this side of the country can do what he does. He’s chosing to stay for now. In the meantime, his boss and his relationship is disrespectful, and he calls it out when it happens, this is his boss’s first management role.

    So he was at the supermarket and his boss called, and he responded in his usual way. Boss demanded something impossible, he cheekly responded with, well what part of this do you want, because both can’t happen. They hang up and some strange woman walks up to him and says, “If you were my employee, I’d fire you on the spot.” He explained how rare he was and she claimed she’d work with a contractor, he explained that it would would cost her 3 times as much, and she insisted it would be worth it. I asked him why he didn’t ask her what her turnover rate was, lol.

    So, this is sitting badly with me. I’m not sure why though. Maybe a complete stranger with power issues and her unsolicited advise is just a pet peeve for me.

    1. Seriously?*

      She doesn’t matter. Like you said, she is a complete stranger with power issues. Too bad he didn’t come back with “If you were my boss, I’d quit.”

      1. irene adler*

        Really. Exactly what did she expect to accomplish here? Seeing bf have a “come to Jesus” moment? OH, please! Such hubris!

    2. Ender*

      I think you need to take three deep breaths and let it go. Random strangers are wrong about random things all the time.

    3. Quackeen*

      Eh, I think it was rude of her, because she didn’t know anything at all about the context and it wasn’t any of her business. It’s like when someone sees a 30-second interaction between parent and child and makes a snap judgment about the quality of parenting. Sometimes it’s a valid judgment; other times it very much is not.

      I would give this woman exactly the amount of attention she deserves, which is none. Neither one of you is likely to even ever see her again, so don’t let her take up space in your hear!

    4. Nita*

      I think random strangers butting into a conversation they’ve no business in, or any clue about, would get anyone’s back up. Especially when random stranger basically said she thinks your bf should get fired. Just take a deep breath and remember you don’t have to live with this woman at the end of the day… but she does.

    5. linzava*

      Agreed, I need to let this one go. I’m not one to hold onto stuff like this. I think it’s because the woman came off as such a bully and claimed to actually manage other people. Irene’s statement of, “Such hubris!” is the perfect statement for this woman’s behavior.

    6. Bea*

      She’s an idiot. I would have just shrugged and said “good thing I don’t work for you then, buttinsky.”

      Let the insufferable opinions roll off your back. She’s not worth it.

    7. LilySparrow*

      1) So rude!

      2) Why did he even bother having this conversation with a stranger? This is why the phrase, “I beg your pardon, do I know you?” exists.

      3) He’s a grown man. If he chooses to waste time & energy trying to convince total strangers of his worth, that’s his business. But perhaps if he practiced disengaging from disrespectful strangers, it would make it easier to change the disrespectful dynamics with his boss.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I love the “beg your pardon, do I know you” line. My friend felt protective of other people’s personal lives. One day my friend was at the bank and the teller said, “How is so-and-so?” who my friend did actually know but my friend did not know the teller. So my friend dropped this line, pardon me… The conversation came to a stop.

        I agree with LS that these folks have already made up their minds that they are right and people like your BF are wrong. No amount of reasoning with them will probably change their minds. Say one sentence and walk or turn away. “Wow, I have never been fired from a place I did not work for. I guess this means you won’t be giving me a good reference?”

        I was at a coffee gathering after a mass for my husband who had passed. The older woman sitting next to me said, “You are too young to look so tired. You need to shape up and pull yourself together.” I thought about explaining I had buried my husband two weeks earlier after giving him 24 hour care for months. Then it dawned on me, this person was going to tell me she had TWO consecutive husbands, each requiring ten years of care and I clearly did not know what hard work was. So I just said, “Yeah.” and turned my back. These people will top whatever you think of to say, even if they have to exaggerate to do it. There is no point to continuing the conversation.

  84. Gaia*

    For a lot of reasons, I am very restrictive on social media. I have Facebook and Instagram but I’m not easily found (and if I was found, nothing can be viewed unless we’re connected). My LinkedIn is slightly less restrictive but still not as widely viewable as many. Outside of these, I have no web search results.

    As I job search this has come up multiple times (3 of 5 phone calls). It seems to strike people as odd, which I understand, but I’m starting to wonder if it will hinder me? I’m not in an industry or role that requires or even encourages a professional social media presence nor do I need experience in that for my work.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I actually wonder this same thing. I have a reason for it, but I also don’t particularly want to explain it flat out before an interview.

      1. Gaia*

        Thankfully none have asked me to explain. My primary reason is “I don’t need the entire free world seeing what I post here” with a secondary “people are freaking creepers” and a tertiary “I volunteer with people who have a fun combination of mental illness, amazing computer skills, and a serious lack of boundaries and for everyone’s safety it is best that they have little to no access to my private life.”

    2. Reba*

      I think it’s weird that interviewers are asking about it. I would just say breezily that I’m not very active on social.

      1. Gaia*

        That’s been my approach so far. Usually along the lines of “oh, yea haha I don’t use it very often, if you don’t already have it, I can send you my LinkedIn page…”

    3. TheWonderGinger*

      I also have locked down social media presence and no one has even mentioned it to me*, I find it odd that they are mentioning it at all in a unrelated field.

      * Side Note, I did have one interviewer friend request me on Facebook in between the interview and official offer. He never mentioned anything about it one way or the other though. I left the request unanswered for a few weeks after I declined the offer. I ultimately did accept the request because our volunteer habits overlap, we have mutual professional contacts, and I don’t use LinkedIn.

      1. Gaia*

        I also find it odd! I mean, I hire people and I’ve definitely taken a peek at social media for some roles (only two very specific ones that dealt with making good decisions and appropriate self representation in public) but wouldn’t think twice about a thoroughly privacy controlled page – especially these days!

        I wonder if, more than anything, they expect to find more of an internet presence because I am a millenial, female, with a not-all-that-common name and are just more surprised than anything else?

    4. babblemouth*

      I doubt it will hinder you. I’m a social media semi-addict and finding out someone is not into it gets a shrug at most. It’s not uncommon, and anyone not hiring you for it wouldn’t really e worth working for in the first place.

      1. Gaia*

        Thanks for the insight! To be fair, I use social media a fair bit, I just use it within my very private accounts!

    5. MissGirl*

      Is it all your social media or is it only your LinkedIn they’re asking about? If it’s Facebook and Instagram, it’s odd they care. If it’s LinkedIn, I understand where they’re coming from.

      If you’re actively job hunting, it would be good to open LinkedIn up because most interviewers view it. They want to see past companies, your responsibilities there, and if you’re connected with someone they know.

      For instance, a resume was passed on to my manager from another department, and he noticed I knew the person on LinkedIn. He was then able to ask me about her, and I put in a good word. She hadn’t any clue she was being considered for this other role since she’d applied to something else. It can be a powerful tool for both sides to utilize.

      1. Gaia*

        Its been a general statement of “we couldn’t find you on facebook” or “we noticed you’re not on facebook” (I am, but again they’d have trouble finding me). And one, which was a hard no was “would you be open to giving us access to your social media profiles”

        Most have found me on LinkedIn before we talk, and on that you can see my name, picture, and most recent position and description (as well as titles and dates for past roles but no details)

        1. Gaia*

          And just to clarify on the lack of details for past roles, given what I did in those roles it is very normal to not disclose any specifics in a even semi-public forum like LinkedIn (ha! that sounds like I was a spy or something. That would be far more glamorous!) so I’m in line with industry norms but it likely will get questioned if I look to change sector.

          1. MissGirl*

            I’m just assuming you’re a spy. My only advice beyond doing what you’re doing about the social media questions is to be very careful. The second you try to get out of the spy game is when everything gets dangerous. ;)

  85. aebhel*

    This isn’t a problem I’m having directly, but it came up recently and I was wondering what AAM readers think. My ex-boss was kind of terrible in a lot of ways, but she was great at managing up. That combined with the fact that the only way for staff to communicate with the board (we’re a library) was through her meant that the board thought she was great even though she was verbally abusing staff and mismanaging a lot of really major stuff.

    She moved on to a new job about a year and a half ago, and the transition period made it really clear to the board how much stuff she’d been leaving undone or doing very sloppy work on (not to mention the level of staff discontent that she fomented). No longer our problem, but apparently she had the board president as one of her references, and is job hunting again, and now he isn’t quite sure how to handle it (I only know this because I was the interim director and was helping with the transition once our new director was hired). What do people think are the responsibilities of someone who agreed to act as a reference but has since learned that the person in question was doing subpar work and covering it up?

    1. Seriously?*

      He needs to decide if he still wants to be a reference. If not, he should contact her and tell her not to use him and explain why. If he is unsure, he can contact her about the issues and discuss them.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I had a similar thing happen with me and a student assistant. I think you have an obligation to be honest. But I also think you can reach out to the person asking for the reference and say something like- “You know, I just realized that I can’t really speak to your management of employees as I don’t have much experience observing that directly. So, I’m not sure I would be the best reference for you.”

      However, if they don’t get the hint (never take a reference who isn’t totally excited to be your reference) than I think just be honest. That’s the whole point of references. Wouldn’t he want someone to be honest with him if he was trying to hire?

    3. Bea*

      He should be be honest.

      She should be reaching out to ask him if he can still act as a reference. That’s on her. So upon speaking to her, let her know it’ll be difficult given some management issues he’s now aware of.

      If she’s not contacting references and assuming all is good. That’s her huge mistake. He doesn’t need to contact her unless she’s reached out prior to this new search. Being a reference is a professional courtesy and not one that lasts forever after.

      Hell 6 months passed and my old coworker went back into the search, she contacted me to confirm I’m still on tap.

  86. Dee Dee*

    I’m about at my breaking point. Every time I think things are getting better, they come crashing back down and I just think the ongoing accrual of BS is about to break me. Time and time again I work hard on something, get lots of praise for my work, and then see it get squashed due to factors unrelated (e.g. internal politics and bureaucracy, or lack of leadership direction). It’s been going on for a year now.

    I had a frank chat with my manager this morning and he said he understood and that he had been observing a lot of the same stuff I was frustrated with but I don’t know ultimately if anything is going to change; I also hope that laying things out for him won’t end up making things worse for me. I feel comfortable being transparent with him, but I still worry about repercussions.

    I’ve turned down two jobs in the last couple of months and starting to really wonder if I made the right call.

    1. neverjaunty*

      This is how people get trapped in dysfunctional-to-toxic situations of all kinds; it’s good just enough of the time to give you hope that maybe this time, things will get better.

      You’ve done what you could, and your boss has no help for you. That’s a clear sign that it’s time to stop turning down other jobs.

  87. DivineMissL*

    Advice wanted please!
    I saw two jobs advertised by the same employer, and I’m interested in applying. From a little research, it looks like these two (related) jobs used to be done by one person; about 9 years ago, they were separated out into two separate jobs; then 5 years ago, they were combined again into one job (the other person was reclassified into an admin job). It looks like the person who has been doing the combined job is leaving, and they must want to separate them out again.

    I’m an EA now; both of these jobs seem like they are mostly organizing, facilitating, coordinating, communicating, etc., things I already do. But, I don’t actually have EXPERIENCE in doing these things in this capacity. I’m going to apply anyway. One job seems kind of dull but I can easily do it; the other seems very interesting but more high-profile/will have more accountability, which kind of scares me when I’d be initially learning how to do the job AND have to produce high results.

    I’m going to apply for both and I’ve got to write a cover letter that explains how I don’t have actual experience but I’ve got the transferable skills; AND I’m applying for both (without sounding like I’m just applying willy-nilly for every job with no experience)?

    1. Jemima Bond*

      They’re probably just mentioning in case you had social media accounts in another name. So they could have a look to make sure you aren’t, say, a white supremacist homophobe and member of the honourable guild of fish-microwavers and mug-thieves.

  88. Jemima Bond*

    Whinge, moan. Back in May I applied for promotion as part of a recruitment campaign that was both internal and external. Thirteen weeks ago last Tuesday, I interviewed for it. This week we were told that letters (by which they almost certainly mean emails; apart from re my pension I haven’t had a letter from work since about 2006) advising success or lack thereof in the campaign would be send out Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday this week (they named the date). Here we are at close of play Friday and I still haven’t heard. I am fed up.

  89. a question*

    I’m trying to help a friend with a two person start up that is literally 1 month old.

    How would you suggest advertising a “negative” in a positive way? For example this start up has a facebook group that has 20 loyal followers (that were following the two start up people during their freelance days). It seems that when trying to make a networking connection or just get the word out there they hit a road block since they are so new. I’m trying to find a way to say “We’re a small but growing group”; “We’re based in the North East, US but looking to expand to the West Coast”‘; “We’re exploring that option”.

    Any way I think of sounds amateur. Despite this roadblock the two are doing great and business is taking off. They are having trouble getting an online presence. Their industry does most advertising on social media.

    1. Seriously?*

      Do they have extensive experience as freelancers? If so, they could site that rather than the amount of time the company has existed. “We have a combined X years experience in Y”.

    2. Kes*

      I mean, if you’re a new startup I would just say so (while also playing up your rapid growth and the experience brought by the founders) – I think that’s better than anything that makes it sound like you’ve been around for awhile but only have 20 followers. New can be exciting. (Disclaimer: I’m not a marketing professional in any way)

    3. Buu*

      If they are in an industry with networking events they should keep going, if they put in enough face time they stop being new. They should also be active rather than passive, follow industry people or related stuff. Tweet out interesting stuff and RT relevant stuff on Twitter. When the business is so new it’s hard to show value but if you have content worth seeing people will share it, but that connection needs work and can’t be one sided.
      Depends on the industry but I find Twitter is easier to build new following in. Facebook deliberately buries pages unless you pay ( which isn’t worth it), Twitter still allows you discoverability if you get involved. Facebook is more useful later down the line as people add the page for later reference.

  90. President Porpoise*

    Weird thing – In late June, I was really annoyed about a certain aspect of my job, and I put my resume in for a internal job posting in a related area, with a hiring manager and director that I know pretty well. After that, I finally talked with my current boss, and solidified a plan for offloading the unpleasant aspect of my job. I never heard back about the internal job, so I kind of forgot about it.
    Well, turns out that they apparently never brought my resume to the attention of the hiring manager for some reason, and the initial offer they made fell thru. The HR recruiter called me yesterday and asked if I’d still be interested, and I said yes, provided that they give me a higher level position than the one I have (which I am qualified for, if just barely).
    The thing is – I like my job. I’m well respected by my boss and grandboss, and everyone (more or less) in my group. I know that I’m being groomed for management in my area, in probably the not too distant future. I was open about all this with the HR guy, too, so he knows that I’m not necessarily eager to jump ship. The internal job move would be good for building up my skillset, which would be really helpful if I decide to leave the company. Any thoughts on other things to consider while I decide whether or not to proceed?

    1. a question*

      That’s a hard one to ponder. Is there a way these new skillsets can be implemented in your old job. It sounds like the old job is looking out for you in the long run. I’d be stumped in that you don’t want to stay in old job too long to where nothing is done to promote you, but when you have such good relationships with your old job with people looking out for you sometimes it’s worth it to hang on. Is there anyway you could get a timeline / feel out where old job is going from your boss?

  91. AnotherLibrarian*

    I have a job interview for a library position at a big state school next week. This is like my fourth phone interview in the last year or so. I’ve managed to have a pretty good return rate on phone screens (my field is super small and super competitive), but I am struggling to get the in-person stage.

    I’m practicing and writing out my answers to common questions. But I feel like maybe there’s something else I can/should be doing. Any advice from fellow librarians or academics on the phone screen portion would be gratefully accepted.

    1. librarian*

      Howdy fellow librarian!

      One thing that helped me a lot was getting to know the job description and the library like I worked there. I spent a long time familiarizing myself with the library and the university – how do they see themselves? What are they proud of? Am I similar in that way? It also helped me to shift my perspective to these are colleagues (especially in a niche field) instead of people who are just judging me. It helped that I’d had a lot of experience doing what I was interviewing to do.

      Also basic stuff like don’t badmouth students, faculty, or your institution – I was surprised at how many librarians do this at conferences/interviews/etc.

      Fingers crossed for you!

    2. There is a Life Outside the Library*

      Have you spent much time on their website? I think people really appreciate when candidates take the time to read what the library has put out there about themselves. Depending on the site, sometimes you can find a ton of useful stuff on there about goals they are working towards, etc. “I saw you’re working on this initiative, I have ___ experience that may be helpful/I could see myself helping in ___ way.” Or maybe there are faculty at this library doing interesting work you want to be a part of. It helps to have things to chat about that are not just question/answer stuff.

    3. Marion the Librarian*

      I’m not in academia, but have had numerous interviews. As others have stated, do check out their website. (Not just the library though- the whole school. Majors, minors, campus life, etc.) Know their mission statement- I was asked to give examples of how I would contribute to the “mission of the school” once.
      Check out the library’s website. Depending on the position you’re applying for, look for things that relate to it. (Cataloging- see what system they use. Reference- see what databases, libguides, Blackboard, etc. that they use.)

      Good luck!

    4. Academic librarian been there done that*

      Practice, practice ,practice. What is the institution’s mission. What is your teaching style? How do you engage students in research? Are you a subject specialist? Will you have a job talk? Practice, Practice , Practice.

  92. Sienna S*

    A friend of a friend who is now a career coach and entrepreneur called me out of the blue (haven’t hung out in person or spoken to them in person in at least 2 years). I missed their call, but they left me a voicemail asking me to invest and support their new business venture in a nearby city they know I hate. It was a highly self-absorbed, self-righteous sales pitch very thinly disguised as a “hey let’s catch up!”

    It was more like, “Hey let’s meet so you can hear all about my dreams and how you can fund them!” I feel beyond irritated and annoyed by this because here is this person who is going to conferences preaching the importance of professional relationships and they pull something like this. Since I missed the call, I opted to not do anything about it since I have a lot of other things going on in my life right now. However, should they attempt to push some more, any suggestions on how to handle them?

    1. Seriously?*

      Just keep saying no. You are too busy to catch up right now. Actually there is someone at the door, gotta go bye.

    2. babblemouth*

      Just Say No!
      If it helps, you can also say you have expensive personal plans (house renovation, new car, whatever) coming up so you’re keeping your money to yourself.

    3. fposte*

      Sounds like an MLM, or an approach that’s similarly unpleasant to those adjacent. I would look for guidance on how to deal with a friend in an MLM (comes up on the /r/antimlm subreddit sometimes, for instance) and use that as a template.

    4. Rey*

      If this is a relationship that you want to maintain on some level, I would make sure to give one, very straightforward, “I’m not interested in investing in this opportunity. It’s great to hear from you and we should definitely make lunch plans” (or whatever thing you are interested in). If this is someone that you’re okay writing off (and you are the only person who can make this decision), I think its okay to block their number.

    5. Snickerdoodle*

      Ew, super sleazy.

      Screen them, delete messages and emails, and if they happen to catch you, oops, there’s something super urgent you have to do right now.

  93. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    I’m in the final (read: dissertation) stage of a year-long professional masters program. I have no interest in working in this field anymore, and if the program had been several years long I would have quit after the first year. I don’t really care about my dissertation topic, but I feel like I need to finish it even though I’m not interested in working in the field/getting the degree anymore just so the year won’t be totally wasted. So…motivational tips?

    1. Reba*

      Think about the dissertation as this pass you need to collect in order to leave. I agree that you are so close to finishing now you should just finish it (“just,” I know). My feeling is that having a Master’s, even in a different field, is more of a thing, an accomplishment you can talk about, than “did some coursework for a year.”

      If I have my vague impressions of UK higher ed right, the diss is not that long, is it? You can definitely do it. Many people, self included, find the discipline of morning pages helpful, especially when unmotivated/procrastinating. Almost nothing I wrote during those times made it into my final (US) dissertation, but getting into the writing flow was really important.

      I’m sorry the experience has been what it was. Good luck finishing!

      1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        My feeling is that having a Master’s, even in a different field, is more of a thing, an accomplishment you can talk about, than “did some coursework for a year.”

        Yep, that’s why I still want* to finish it. And, no, it’s not long. I’ve written books before that were much longer, so it’s not that I can’t do it, just that I’m so uninterested in the topic/overall degree that I can’t seem to make much real headway.

        *Well, want is a strong word here, but you know what I mean, I think.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Do you have to do a dissertation? A lot of masters programs have a ‘portfolio’ or some other option. Consider that if you’re super burned out. (That’s how I finished my second master’s degree.)

      Beyond that, all I can say it, try to se concrete goals and find someone to help you enforce them. It helps me to break down big projects into small manageable chunks.

    3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Having been in the same place, all I can say is that you just have to make yourself do it. Try to find a virtual community, perhaps? I was an active member of the phinished site (just search and you’ll find it) and I really found the chat room useful. We tended to use the so-called pomodoro method of time management with breaks to chat and it was very helpful. Perhaps this or maybe another kind of virtual group could help?

  94. Raine*

    I’ve been interviewing for part time jobs since my internship ended and I’m wondering how y’all deal with the added stress of interviewing, especially all the phone calls. I am terrible with phone calls, they make me anxious because I’m hard of hearing and I worry that I will sound like an idiot because I misheard something. Any advice would be great.

    1. Anna Canuck*

      It’s ok to say up front “I’m a little hard of hearing, so bear with me here.”
      Make up notes with examples of how you demonstrate all the things they list in the job ad, and then keep expanding it as you apply for other jobs. Have this printed out and in front of you for phone interviews, so you have frameworks for answers (don’t just READ what you wrote, but have it in point form).

      1. Raine*

        Thank you! I hadn’t thought to have notes for phone interviews. I always memorize some points before I go to an in person interview, so I can probably adapt those to work for phone interviews too.

  95. babblemouth*

    How can I get a better sense of how I’m doing at work on a day to day basis? I just had my mid-year review with my manager. I thought I hadn’t been doing great lately, felt quite out of control and constantly in cathcing-up mode. It turns out I’m doing great! both her and the people she asked for input had nothing bad to say. That’s a good thing, right? Except I was starting to make myself sick feeling like I wasn’t performing, and that’s really not nice. Aside from constantly asking people “is this ok/ do you like me?”(which will probably get annoying) are there ways I can better track my own performance?

    1. fposte*

      It sounds like your boss could step it up on the feedback, and there is a professional way to ask “is this okay/do you like me?” “Boss, could we meet more often for one on one discussions of my work? Once a month would be great.” Then you come with an agenda of what’s getting done and what you might have questions or concerns about. Sometimes it’s hard to pin a boss down to a new plan, but often if you take the initiative they’re happy to do so, and that would keep your performance review from being this big exception to the silence.

      And in the meantime, accept the message you’ve gotten–that you’re doing fine and that this is a place where no news is good news.

    2. Rey*

      I can’t remember where I read this, but it’s a bunch of notes that I have on asking for feedback. Brief, informal coaching moments are also fine, for example, on the same day as a key meeting or presentation. Be as specific as possible when asking your manager for feedback. So instead of saying “do you have any feedback for me?” ask questions that begin with ‘how’ or ‘what’ to elicit fuller responses. For example, what’s one thing I could improve? What’s one thing I could have done better in that meeting or presentation? How did that go from our perspective? What do you think I might have done differently? And if you get feedback that says something like “I think you need to be more assertive”, unpack that label by asking follow-up questions so that you understand your manager’s expectations. For example, Can you explain what you mean? How could I have been more assertive just now? What kinds of things should I do to be more assertive going forward?

  96. Anna Canuck*

    So this week I listened to the Bulls#it Jobs episode of the podcast Hidden Brain, and I read the book Lost Connections by Johann Hari, and realized that I have a bulls#it job. I spend a lot of time pretending to be busy. I ask for work, and it takes my boss days to get anything to me. What he gives me won’t keep me busy for as long as he acts like it will. What I’m doing and what I was told I would be doing when I was hired don’t line up very well. I’ve been here just over 4 years and I don’t see it changing. The lack of meaningful work is definitely impacting my mental health, even though it’s not TERRIBLE. My coworkers are nice. My boss is nice. My grand-boss is nice. My grand-grand boss knows my name and respects my work.

    So I applied for a new internal job. I’m so cautiously hopeful – two people that used to work in my current group have moved over there and are happier. I need to prep for my interview (that I haven’t been offered yet, but I think they’re obligated to give me one given our union agreement). I’m trying to not mentally check out of the bit I do have to do around here, but man, it’s hard. I’m not sure what I’m looking for here, other than to throw out the recommendation for both that podcast and book, and for good vibes about the job process.

  97. Jessen*

    So I realized I have literally never given a proper 2 weeks notice before. The only jobs I’ve chosen to leave before have been retail where I basically just told someone I was quitting and that was it. To complicate matters, my manager is on leave right now and may not be back in time. (I’m waiting on a bunch of background stuff to process before giving notice.)

    Is there like some sort of protocol that one is expected to follow? Is it ok to tell your coworkers what’s going on? From what I’ve seen my workplace doesn’t really believe in telling their employees things.

    1. leaving*

      Tell your boss first, even if you’re close with your coworkers. You can also ask your boss how your coworkers will be notified (not if, but how – because it’s super normal to tell people that others are leaving).

      1. Jessen*

        I’d say not notifying people is pretty much the norm here – when someone’s leaving you usually hear it through the grapevine, but there’s no official notice unless they’re high up in the company. I’ve frequently not found out coworkers are leaving until I show up and they’re not there. (I really doubt this is intentional policy so much as institutional disorganization.)

    2. Jessen*

      I’ve been trying to look it up, but some stuff is saying always do it in writing, other stuff you have to do it in person. Plus my manager’s not even going to be here and I don’t think he’s checking his email. And I don’t exactly have any work to wrap up because we don’t do things like that.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        After your offer and all that is finalized, I would send your manager an email asking if there’s a time in the next couple of days to chat for a few minutes, and then do it via phone. If your manager is on leave and not checking emails, is there someone you are reporting up to in the interim? In that case, I would do it in person and say “normally I’d tell Boss, but since he is out on leave, I thought it best to let you know that I’ve accepted a new position and my last day will be on X.”

        1. Jessen*

          We are generally not supposed to be able to contact the managers when they’re on leave. We do have an acting manager but his hours in the office seem to be pretty random and he’s hard to get.

          Yes, this place is disorganized. And I’m stressing extra over giving notice because they’ve really been pushing hard on how this is such a great place to work and look at all these fun! new! things! we’re doing, and I just don’t want to deal with the why do you want to leave conversation.

          1. Bea*

            Don’t let their disorganization stress you on this.

            Email your resignation to your manager and the acting manager. Yes face to face or phone is ideal but they aren’t making this easy! So do the best with what you have.

            Then tell everyone that you want to.

            I have given notice and then walked up to my team and told them the news. It’s yours to share.

      2. all the candycorn*

        If you cannot contact your boss, tell the person who is “on call” for covering their managerial duties while they’re gone. Usually this is their boss, but not always.

  98. Sadly Job Hunting*

    This might get lost but here goes:

    I am in a weird position job wise – I feel like I am completely burnt out, our slow season wasn’t really slow and so we are starting to ramp back up and I don’t feel like I have recharged AT ALL. To compound issues I work for a small business (think fewer than 5 professionals) and there is a distinct lack of support, feedback (positive or negative) and no upward mobility. I have been casually job searching since June due to some concerning comments/vibes from the owner and his daughter but I am having a really really hard time motivating myself to apply to anything. And the few that I have been super pumped for I haven’t gotten a call for an interview on.

    I had an interview last week for a position that would have been the next logical step up from where I am at now and while I thought it went well I got a call Monday that I just wasn’t experienced enough for the management position (which fair enough). But they have an auditor position available. The issue is that AT best it is a lateral move and I am really at a point where I want to advance. I thought that working for this organization would be great but I am just not enthused at this offer at all. I think I am going to turn the offer down but I am doubting myself like crazy.

    Has anyone dealt with something similar? I am just not sure how to refocus and keep going…

      1. Sadly Job Hunting*

        In theory? But there’s no timeline for when/if that would happen. And I am so done with auditing that taking a job that will be exclusively auditing (vs planning, supervising and reviewing) is not on my top ten list.

  99. leaving*

    Hey all – I posted a few weeks ago about what I should ask employees I formerly supervised in my last check-ins with them before moving on to a new (non-supervisory) job. They all had good feedback… for what they wanted in a boss, which I then relayed to my supervisor. I’m hopeful that it will help them get a better supervisor going forward.

    So while it helped me a bit (they liked me!), it will really help them.

    Thank you!

  100. Rusty Shackelford*

    In case anyone is interested in my kid’s “we messed up your paperwork so we have to terminate you and then re-hire you” situation (link in username)… it’s been sorted. It took several days, but they finally got on a conference call with someone upstream who walked them through the process and worked out the kinks (such as, she couldn’t figure out how to re-apply online because the website said “you already work here.”) And yes, she did have to completely re-apply, including taking the personality test again. I’m sure it was as frustrating for them as it was for her, but there was a happy ending.

    1. Anono-me*

      I’m glad it’s all sorted.

      Question. Did they pay her for all of the time wasted on this, including repeating the personality quiz?

  101. Snickerdoodle*

    I have a mini-update about my creepy coworker from vanpool.

    I said before that he complained about his wife, showed up a couple of times to my cube unannounced and uninvited (and I never told him where I sit, so he had to have looked it up), emailed me with paper thin excuses to contact me, and implied he wanted to hang out outside of work a couple of times. I didn’t respond to any of the emails beyond the first one (not knowing it was going to be a pattern) and took to wearing earbuds on vanpool.

    I documented everything, printed out his emails and the spreadsheet of the dates of the emails and other incidents, and showed them to my supervisor. She, mercifully, was squicked out too and told me to let her know immediately if anything else happened.

    Well, today it happened. I was sitting in my cube when he stopped by claiming to be on a scavenger hunt for a pink paperclip (wat). He did not need to drop several floors down to my cube to find such a thing. I said no. He tried to continue the conversation by asking how I was, and I said I was busy and turned my back on him. He apologized for interrupting and left. He wasn’t even all the way out of my cube before I was composing an email to my supervisor about it. As I said to her, I don’t want to have a conversation right in the middle of the office or vanpool for everyone to hear (especially if I end up saying something nasty!), but I’m also NOT having a conversation with him in private, not that it matters since he’s already shown he doesn’t respect my boundaries anyway. We’ll see what happens.

    1. Rey*

      I’m so glad that your supervisor is taking this seriously. Fingers crossed that this problem is headed in the right direction with your supervisor’s help.

    3. Workerbee*

      Your supervisor sounds like she’ll be very effective! This is heartening. Hopefully soon Mr. Pink Paperclip will have gone the way of the Microsoft Clippy (or at least fixate on something else, such as learning a better course of behavior).

    4. Snickerdoodle*

      I told my other supervisor what was up, and he was appalled and immediately consulted the legal department and immediately relayed the advice.

      My boss is getting a cake the size of a house for Boss’s Day.

  102. TacoBelle*

    I’m a long time lurker but was after some advice and maybe validation… or maybe a kick that I’m being ridiculous and just need to suck it up.

    We have a company wide Christmas party and have just been given the dates. It’s falls on the Friday of the one weekend my military boyfriend and his children will be home before the Christmas holidays and we had made plans… tentative plans but plans nonetheless.

    The idea is they have a company conference in the day and then the party at night. It’s around 200miles away and they will put you in the hotel for 2 nights … the issue is it’s mandatory and although I’ve explained my position there seems to be no leeway.

    Honestly I’ve been the last two years and there is no professional upside to this meeting, majority are bored and only attend for the party afterwards. As it is on a Friday even if I missed the party I would not get home till late and if I stay for the party I’ll miss the majority of the day with my family.

    Even when I say it all out loud i know I should just suck it up and go. If it were any other weekends I’d still not want to go but I would go.

    I spoke to my area manager about it and she gave me The talk of compulsory etc. I just can’t believe that they expect around 200 people to actually be able to attend with no prior plans. I’ve since been told I shoulda ignored it and just said I was sick on the day… but I was trying to be an adult about it.

    Mostly just wanted to rant but also any outside opinions would be great!

    1. Snickerdoodle*

      NO. No, no, no, no, NO. YOU are not being ridiculous; THEY are. Holidays are for family, not work. Mandatory merry-making is totally inappropriate and usually backfires anyway.

      Even if the absolute worst happens and they fire you, you will find a job with better boundaries. Jobs come and go; you have one family. Call in sick. Escalate. Your work cannot force you to attend, well, technically anything, but mandatory attendance to a *Christmas* party has already led to lawsuits at other companies in the past, and, infamously, a workplace shooting. (The Christmas part was probably incidental to that, but nevertheless.)

    2. Alice*

      You have made plans! So what if the plan is “spend time with my family, somewhere, doing something.” That’s a plan. If I were you I would not attend the conference and party. I hope that you can work out a good solution.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      A mandatory Christmas party? That’s insane. A mandatory Christmas party with the date announced ~three months in advance? That’s even more insane.

      1. TacoBelle*

        To be fair the party is optional it’s the conference that’s mandatory- although you get a bit of snooty reaction when you don’t go the party… some people still gets it mentioned years later to them!

        1. Youth*

          I feel like the fact that they require you to be 200 miles away that entire day makes it mandatory in practice if not in theory…if it’s going to take at least three hours to drive home, most people are going to opt to stay for the party, right?

          1. TacoBelle*

            Exactly! It’s definitely a ploy to get all the people to attend the meeting as most want the free drinks later on that evening.

    4. Ann O'Nemity*

      If this is an otherwise good job, I’d probably just suck it up and attend the required conference but not the semi-optional party. Drive home that night, so you can spend as much of the remaining weekend as you tentatively planned. If anyone asks why you skipped the party, tell them it’s one of the very few opportunities you have to spend with your military partner and his family, and you feel bad for being gone all day Friday as it is.

    5. Close Bracket*

      The professional upside to the meeting is the brownie points you get for attending it and the party afterward. That is a shitty and ridiculous professional upside, but it’s real and you should not discount it. It sucks when work schedules over your personal life, but sometimes that’s the way the cookie crumbles. Are you allowed a plus one at the party? Does your boyfriend have any overnight childcare for his kids? Can your boyfriend come for the party and stay the night? Alternately, an you put an appearance in at the party and cut out quickly to go home?

    6. ..Kat..*

      Are you in the USA? Can you push back with how sad you are that your company does not support our troops?

    7. valentine*

      Do they expect you to save the date of every December weekend for this? What if you tell your supervisor it turns out you can’t change your plans? Surely someone before you had conflicting commitments. What happened to them? Can BF/kids meet you in the area and spend the weekend there? Is it in the middle of nowhere?

    8. TacoBelle*

      It’s not the best of jobs to be honest and the brownie points I believe I’ve racked up in the past (in my opinion) should outweigh the non attendance but I could be wrong. It’s not a company I intend to be employed with for any longer than 12 months…
      Unfortunately it’s not in an area which would be of ease for the boyfriend and kids to meet me, no plus ones invited and also all our plans revolves around our home area… Christmas lanterns, decorating etc etc etc.

      Ultimately the only two reasons I would feel shitty not going is because I want to see a manager friend I don’t see often and because another manager is ‘new’ and won’t know anybody else attending bar our superior.

      My plan is to wait another week and then reiterate my intention to not attend. See where it takes me…

  103. Natalie*

    Should I withdraw from consideration for this job?

    In short, I applied for a huge stretch position on a lark because the posting had been open for a month and I had no expectation that I would get an interview. And yet, I did. I liked the team and the org, and I’m miserable at my current job. Also this would be an enormous career boost. Downsides are that, as I said, it’s an enormous jump for me, to mostly doing things that I don’t have direct experience with, in a new field. There’s some stuff in my family life taking a lot of my attention right now. And my current job is so deeply unchallenging that leaving for a normal job would be like a couch-to-5K, this potential job would be couch-to-marathon and I doubt my ability to handle the stress.

    All of that said, I’d like to continue with a positive impression with the org, since they are expanding and could be hiring for something more on my level soon. So I’m debating withdrawing from the process now, since I’m 99% sure I’m out of the running, and also 99% sure I wouldn’t take the job is offered. There is a second interview so I could wait a little bit. But I don’t want to waste anyone’s time, including mine.

    1. fposte*

      If you know for sure you wouldn’t take it, sure, withdraw. But I think a good-faith second interview for a job you’re seriously considering is just a second interview, not a promise on either side, so it would be perfectly reasonable for you to wait for the second interview (or its possibility) to decide.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      You should continue to move forward with their process, show your excitement about working for this org, and just be honest about your skills and experience. It may turn out that they don’t need someone with as much experience as they advertised and you’d be a good fit after all, or they may realize you’re a better fit for a future position. Either way, I don’t see the harm in moving forward – as long as you’re not overstating your abilities.

    3. Amargasaurus*

      I would stick with it through the second interview at least! I was in a similar situation recently: complacent/bored/frustrated at current job, came across a new position that sounded cool but definitely a stretch. The first interview was fine, but I wasn’t sold on whether I’d be up to it or really willing to take on the challenge. I came back for two more rounds of interviews, and the job (and team) kept sounding better and better each time! I was upfront from the very start about the parts of the job description where I felt I was lacking experience and did my best to present my skills and abilities honestly; so when they ended up offering me the job (yay!), I felt like they knew what they’d be getting and no one was going to get bamboozled. A big part of why I accepted (yay!) is that when meeting to discuss the offer, they made it very clear that they understood where I felt I had limitations and wanted to coach me to develop in the areas where I wasn’t as strong. So here I am now, one week into the new job, with a better title, a bigger salary, shorter commute, and supervisors who are actively interested in promoting my professional development! I do still have moments of doubt and worry that I will disappoint everyone/not be able to do the job, but I keep reminding myself that these smart and experienced people heard me express my hesitations and still thought I was the right person, so I should believe them.

      I would say just be as clear and honest as possible about your strengths and weaknesses and also find out as much as you can about their expectations. (One interview also may not be enough to get a good feel for whether you’d like to take the job.) You might be just the person they’re looking for, and they could be the perfect fit for you too! One question I asked during an interview that I found helpful for my decision was something like “how do you handle situations where an employee is struggling/isn’t succeeding?” (Supervisor’s answer was basically that would mean it was at least partly her fault, that she hadn’t done enough to support the employee and set them up for success and she would need to work harder to help turn things around. Time will tell how true that is in practice, but I’m happy that’s at least the theoretical attitude.)

      Good luck! I hope it works out, one way or another.

  104. coopertrooperpooper*

    I’m getting married next year and my coworkers have assumed they are invited. I… don’t want too. They’re fine coworkers but i wouldn’t consider them friends. But they have made MULTIPLE comments about coming! Is this not incredibly rude?!

    If it helps, we are all around the same age (mid 20s). The only person from my job I want to invite is my former boss. What do I say to them? Everytime they say something like “I better be invited” I just laugh it off. But WTF??

    1. CheeryO*

      That’s definitely rude. I don’t assume I’m invited to anyone’s wedding until the save the date shows up!

      I’d nip this in the bud ASAP. Next time someone says something about wanting an invite, just say that you’re sorry, but you’re keeping the guest list small (even if you aren’t, a white lie is okay). If you’re close with your former boss, you could maybe request that they keep it on the down-low at work since you aren’t inviting anyone else.

    2. There is a Life Outside the Library*

      This happened to me too. I would just say to them flat out, “Oh, I’m not inviting anyone from work! Love you guys but sooo expensive.”

    3. sammy_two*

      Tell them you’ve gone over your budget and it simply just doesn’t allow for additional guests outside of family and long-time friends to attend.

    4. Reba*

      who says these things????

      But yeah, rather than a non-response laugh, next time try a smile and “We’re keeping it small, I’m sure you understand” or “we’re not inviting anyone from work” should do it. Maybe, “I’m touched that you all are excited for me.”

    7. Nita*

      Assuming you’re invited is rude even if you’re extended family. Coworkers? Nope. I’d just raise my eyebrows and respond with “But… why?” every time.

      1. coopertrooperpooper*

        Ugh, I don’t bring it up, they ask me about it. I try to change the subject asap but only so much I can do :(

    9. LilySparrow*

      Miss Manners once defined a small wedding as “any wedding to which the person you’re addressing isn’t invited.”

  105. De Minimis*

    Mild rant: I get that no one wants to train the new person, and that poop rolls downhill, but I really hate being trained by someone who hasn’t even been at this job a year and obviously doesn’t have an understanding of a lot of the tasks they’re training me to do.

    When I do get a chance to be trained by the more experienced people, I feel like I do really well and am able to retain what I’ve being taught. But I continue to struggle with the tasks covered by the other new-ish employee, who has communication issues in general [slight language barrier, and also poor practices as far as e-mail, writing, etc.]

    I know this is just kind of a stopgap job for me, and that bothers me too that I think I will be always changing jobs every 2-3 years for the rest of my days.

    1. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

      Oh, I wish you would come work with me! I have years of experience, and I love training people because it can help them grow! Plus, the more they know, the more they can help the team and contribute. It’s a win-win situation all around.

    2. LQ*

      For the most part? I really like training new people. You get a chance to set the tone and expectations. You can help guide them through the trickier parts. You get to show them not just the mechanics of how but help them understand the why and if they are interested you can give them more so that they can be more successful going forward. It gives me a chance to report back to my boss about that potential I see (or where there may be gaps).

      I’ve gotten to do a lot of the new training for a few people in the last couple years. One was really bad right out of the gate. She didn’t last long. One is fine, but he’s really good at just doing work (WHICH IS HUGE!) but he’s got no interest or inclination to lead, innovate, drive or grow. He wants to do what he does good today and he does it quite well. You have to tell him all the things, but he does what you tell him. One is going fantastic, and she’s got a lot of lead, innovate, drive and grow in her. I’m pretty much off that team now but I have said a bunch of times to her that she should feel like she can keep coming to me for things that are workier but also are culturier things. I’d really like to see her feel like she could stay long term, or if she leaves go onto great other things happily. But she’s got a lot of fights to have with the work she has to do and I try to make sure she goes into them well armed.

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      Do you feel comfortable talking to your boss about it? Maybe you could say something like, “Noah the Newbie is doing the best he can training me, but he hasn’t been in the position long and doesn’t have a full understanding of all of tasks. Is there someone else I could work with, a more experience coworker I can go to when I have questions Noah can’t answer?”

      1. De Minimis*

        I’ve considered just going to other people myself, and have done that sometimes. It’s complicated.
        I’m turning in work to Nora Newbie, so she comes back with corrections. She isn’t my supervisor [the head of the department is the closest thing to a supervisor that I have], but has been tasked with training me on duties involving certain activities that she works with. So there’s not really anyone else to go to a lot of the time, though I still try when I get the opportunity [one person used to work on these particular tasks, but doesn’t do it anymore–but she’s been good to help and not say, “Ask Nora.”]

        I’m a contractor, and Nora is a regular employee, so I think the working relationships are different than they would be if we were both the same.

  106. Feelingmehtoday*

    Any thoughts about what to do when you have your yearly eval that’s perfectly fine, but your boss has professional goals for you that don’t necessarily interest you? boss would like me to learn more about the field, and potentially go to more conferences so I know about the strategic future of funding in this particular area. The issue is that I’m really not that interested in the academic theory of this work, I really just feel more passionate about the outcome, and would rather focus on the practical side.
    Plus, I’m the senior person in my function and I don’t really think that there’s that much more room for my position to change and develop. They are a fair enough boss, the organization does meaningful work and I got very high marks as a team leader. So that’s all good but I am left with sort of an “is that all there is ?” feeling. If this resonates with anyone and they have comments or advice, it would be great. Thanks!

    1. Snickerdoodle*

      My old boss kept trying to push me toward areas I wasn’t remotely interested in but my coworker was and vice versa. We got ignored, of course. We eventually left, of course. So if you haven’t already explicitly told your boss that you aren’t interested in x but are really interested in y, and you have concrete evidence that you would be good at y, do so. If that doesn’t work, and you’re feeling stuck in your position as you mentioned, it may be time to consider a new position.

    2. JessicaTate*

      I’ve been the boss in this type of situation, and I think you should try to see it from his/her perspective. In my case, I saw that a staff person had great expertise and skill in field X, but was way less familiar with field Y, which was pretty important to our work. She was doing well in her job, but I felt she could be even better and more well-rounded if she learned more about field Y, even though it wasn’t the topic she was most interested in. I wonder if that’s what your boss is trying to say to you. It might not interest you, but might he/she think that it would help you do your job better or understand a bigger context?

      I would also say: I totally understand the preference for practical over theory. But really good practice and really strong outcomes are often grounded in a solid underlying theory. It’s not that your work needs to become focused on the theoretical, but it could help you understand reasons why you do the practical things of X and Y to achieve outcome Z. It might even help you come up with new ideas about doing the practical side by spending a little time in the theory world.

      I don’t know if your situation is anything like what I describe, but those are two-cents from my experience.

      2. Ann O'Nemity*

        I agree with this.

        Maybe you can find a compromise. Keep some of the goals focusing on the academic and theoretical side, but suggest adding/replacing 1 or 2 that focus more on outcomes.

    3. SarahKay*

      How well do you get on with your boss? Do you feel like they’d listen if you said that the goals being suggested aren’t where you want to be? If so, I’d recommend a frank discussion with them, being very clear on what you would like.
      Some years ago my grand-boss became my direct boss while my normal manager was out on maternity leave (UK, so she was on leave for a year). Grand-boss had big plans for me; wanted me to lead my own team – except that I’ve been a manager, didn’t like it, and have no intention of doing it again. It helped that I was already very, very clear in my own mind that no-way, no-how was this going to happen, and while I was politer than that in the conversation, I was no less definite.
      Luckily, he was a good manager who actually listened, and accepted what I was saying.
      Now granted, my yearly eval, given a couple of months later, did say in about five different ways that ‘sadly SarahKay doesn’t want to be a manager’ but it also gave some very useful advice for alternative options for where I could go in my career.
      Hopefully, if your boss knows how you feel they can do something similar for you – point out avenues that you may not have considered but that would appeal, rather than the current ones being offered that don’t.

      1. Feelingmehtoday*

        We get along ok, but I can’t imagine boss would be open to hearing that someone didn’t love the academic part. Boss is very very passionate about it. the one fascinating part of our conversation was that it’s clear boss envisions retirement in the next 10 years but totally believes I might stay on after. and truthfully, I can’t see myself staying with a new Exec Director. We may have a follow up conversation later in the year.

        1. SarahKay*

          Soooo… is it possible that boss sees you in that role when they retire? And wants to get you the exposure within the industry, and wider knowledge, that they believe you might need for that to happen?

          1. Feelingmehtoday*

            Yikes – I don’t think I can imagine that! probably he sees me as a very strong second, who can support the new ED. There is an operations person whom he gets along with very well who is the strongest inside candidate, but I think he is open to outside candidates as well.

  107. TheDoctor*

    I’m managing for the first time. My employee is smart, pays attention, works hard, I’m really happy. We work in science, so the work is very creative, exploratory, and it’s not clear what constitutes the right answer most of the time.
    My employee struggles a lot with this and I would like to signal to them that they are doing great. Everytime they catch ‘a mistake’ I try to praise them for double checking whether our hypothesis holds true, but they focus so strongly on having been wrong and whether they contribute any value at all.
    They’ve been here for half a year and I spend at least 30 minutes a day not discussing science (that would be fine)but building up confidence. I’m beginning to see that this is not sustainable nor effective. I’m not their therapist but it’s hard to watch them struggle.

    I’m looking for suggestions or strategies to get back to work, without being heartless.

    1. fposte*

      Be transparent. “Jane, I’ve realized we spend a lot of time talking about what you perceive as error and whether that’s a problem with your performance, and I’m going to stop doing that. It’s not helping you minimize your worries and it’s not the best use of our time. So from now on, when a concern comes up I’ll point back to this conversation, tell you it’s fine, and go back to my other work.”

      1. fposte*

        Oh, and mean it. You may be getting caught in a dynamic where you wait for her to give “that’s enough” signs, and going forward you give them. You say what you need to say and turn away back to work.

  108. Marie the Chef*

    This week was awful. I found out Sunday morning that the colleague I worked most closely with passed away very unexpectedly on Saturday night. He was a fantastic guy, not even 40, and I’m heartbroken. I spent most of yesterday at his funeral and with his family and friends after. And this was a few weeks after I told him the organization we both work for was ending our program, but I still wanted to work with him and he said he’d be happy to be part of whatever I do next.

    It just sucks.

  109. red panda worker*

    I have some coworkers (not from my department) that will look me in the eye after I say good morning to them in the break room but not acknowledge me further. I know it’s not a big deal, but as someone trying to conquer social anxiety even saying good morning to someone I don’t know well is tough and them ignoring me sends me into a negative spiral of “What did I do wrong?”

    1. CheeryO*

      I feel you. Make sure you’re speaking clearly and loudly, and use their name. Beyond that, any weird reaction is on them. Don’t let their poor manners make you feel bad (I know, easier said than done!).

    2. Snickerdoodle*

      If it’s first thing in the morning, there’s probably a lack of adequate caffeination to blame. Also, they’re probably assuming you’re just saying hello out of courtesy rather than a serious attempt at conversation. Say it brightly while making eye contact and maybe add a “How are you?” You may not get more than a grunt in response, but it’s unlikely they’re deliberately giving you the cold shoulder. Hang in there.

      2. Ender*

        Yeah I am worthless until I get my coffee. Unless you can see that they are treating other coworkers-but-not-friends in a different way, assume it is about them, not about you.

    3. whistle*

      Oh, we have several like this in my office and it drives me crazy. It is so rude. Just keep in mind that it is not about you. The people in my office who do this all come across as all around unhappy people, and I try to just feel sorry for them. But, believe me, I do get down about it sometimes. My approach is to continue to say hi (because I feel rude if I come face to face with someone in a shared space and don’t say hi) but to not push it further than that and to not expect a response. I do not engage further with these people. I just say hi and move on.

  110. Someone Else*

    NewGrandBoss I’ve realized does something that I find frustrating. I think it might just be a personality clash (although we otherwise get along great). I admit I am not a huge fan of pleasantries to begin with, but NewGrandBoss doesn’t seem to accept perfunctory “I acknowledge you fellow human” answers. Example:
    NGB: How are you today?
    Me: OK.
    NGB: Just OK?
    Me: Yes.

    or
    NGB: How are you today?
    Me: Fine.
    NGB: Just fine?

    Etc. I really don’t want to have to go the route of fake-extra-joyful when I’m not. I’m just answering because it’s the social contract to acknowledge the question. I’m not treating it as a real question whose answer matters. (And yet I still find it distasteful to say “good” when that isn’t true). I might need to start finding some non-sequitur type answers that don’t have qualitative values. Although those usually entail more discussion and I’m really just trying to move the conversation forward to the part that matters. I don’t know why it bothers me so much…the extra inquiry does seem to be genuine concern…which I guess might actually be why it bugs me? It’s coming across as sort of paternalistic or overly familar. Clearly well intentioned, but makes me uncomfortable. He’s not asking in the context of like “Is Internal Issue we Spoke About Better lately?” and my “just okness” indicates no he’d need to act on. He’s asking in the “this is the first 10 seconds of a conversation” context.

    Any bosses out there want to give me a devil’s advocate here? What are some reasons you’d push back to a neutral “fine” or “OK”?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Are you literally responding with just “fine” or “ok” and not saying something like “fine, thanks, how are you?” Like you said, it’s the social contract. If you’re not responding in kind, doing so might end that first-ten-seconds part and let him move on.

      1. Someone Else*

        It’s more like I’m saying “ok” and about to move on to saying something else, but he jumps in with the “Just OK?” before I can. Like he’s not quite cutting me off, but is very quick to jump on it. At least that’s what happened today. I’m not doing “fine” or “ok” in tone that implies sullenness or “there be subtext here”. It’s much more…breezy? I’m not sure if that’s the right word. I’ve previously done a “Fine, and you?” and it still got me a “Just fine?” I think I’m going to try changing the subject faster.

        1. Crylo Ren*

          I don’t think your problem is that you aren’t fast enough with changing the subject, since as you say your grandboss is quick to jump in with the follow-up.

          I think you probably need to start just replacing “fine” or “ok” with “good” (and, as others suggested, adding in the reciprocal “how are you?”). “Good, how about you?” is the normally, widely accepted rejoinder, so anything outside of that tends to act as a record scratch.

          Yes, it will probably always feel a bit distasteful and inauthentic to you, but that annoyance is probably a lesser evil than having your grandboss pry further, which you risk by stopping at “fine/ok”.

      2. zora*

        This, You need to start adding the “how are you?” in return to him. I think it’s possible that the reason he’s answering that way is because he’s used to having the third part of the exchange, but since you don’t ask, he doesn’t know what to say, which is making this awkward for both of you.
        The rhythm he’s expecting is:
        “How are you?”
        “Fine, thanks, how are you?”
        “Great!”
        Then you both nod and move on. If you give him the lead in to the third one, it might solve this problem.

    2. Amber Rose*

      One word answers are a bit abrupt, and may make you seem like you’re using the version which means “actually in a bad mood.” A boss would want to know more about that, so I don’t think this push back is that odd.

      Try a full sentence response. I use, “I’m doing well, thank you.”

    3. Crylo Ren*

      I think you’re overthinking these pleasantries. You acknowledge that it’s part of our social contract, but then you’re really insistent that you shouldn’t have to hold up your end of it. Responding with one-word answers like “Fine” or “OK” in this context doesn’t come across as neutral at all – to me it would come across as jarring and even combative. Looking at this from your grand-boss’s perspective, you’re the one that’s pushing back on what is really a pretty standard and perfunctory part of conversation.

    4. LooLoo*

      +1 to both comments (does that make it a +2?). I think Alison answered a question similar to this at some point…

    5. Midlife Tattoos*

      I try to pay attention to my staff when they only say “Okay” or “Fine” when I ask them how they are. It’s the one-word answer that makes me pause and ask follow-up questions to make sure they’re really okay and if there is anything they need. I’d rather take a couple extra moments to check in than to breeze by.

      1. LilySparrow*

        This. It’s unusual for that to be a full-stop, and I don’t think he’s trying to be paternalistic or overly familiar. You are (unwittingly) sending the Universal Signal That Something Is Wrong, and he’s being a good boss by checking on it.

      2. Close Bracket*

        I’d rather you didn’t. Maybe part of your check ins should be to find out whether your staff feels the way Someone Else and I do.

    7. valentine*

      I resent the expectation to lie and hope to see this ritual disappear along with handshakes, but you are well-placed to outmaneuver him. NGB: How are you? You: Just fine.

    8. CDM*

      I would probably go with having a few preplanned responses along the lines of:

      If you are on the better side of OK/good, respond to ‘just ok/good?’ with ‘amazingly good’ or spectacularly or incredibly ok or in that vein.

      If you are more on the meh side of fine, ‘indubitably fine’ or particularly ok, or definitely fine or very ok.

      Or there’s always the weather – ‘fine with snow showers’ ‘OK and sunny’

      There are plenty of ways to respond to the ‘just’ question without having to pretend to be happier than you are.

  111. EPLawyer*

    Couldn’t wait for Friday to get here to post this. Remember the letter this week about the feelings chart? That very night my husband came home from work and told me about the mandatory “high risk duty” form they are supposed to fill out at work. At least once a day. For context he works in maintenance in a factory. This form is a HOOT. Apparently they are supposed to fill one out with the description of the activity. Then it asks “Is there an SOP for this activity?” If the answer is No, the guy is just supposed to go on his merry way with the activity. So 1) there are high risk activities that there is NO SOP, including safety procedures to deal with and 2) apparently no intention of creating said SOP.

    Oh and he got trouble because they claim he hasn’t done it yet. Yep, required, every day. at first a site wide email went out to remind people to do it. Now at least they are focusing on the alleged people not doing it. Except he did. He wanted to say “I did it, but I have no idea which circular file you put it in after I turned it in.”

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Apparently they are supposed to fill one out with the description of the activity. Then it asks “Is there an SOP for this activity?” If the answer is No, the guy is just supposed to go on his merry way with the activity.

      Um. Okay. I guess they could be gathering data and figuring out which activities lack SOPs, but “okay go do it anyway bye” seems like a bad move.

      1. Ender*

        Yeah my first thought was they are creating data to see where they need to produce SOPs. But this seems like a strange way to go about it. Has he spoke to his safety rep about the high risk activities that need SOPs?

  112. Cupsong*

    TW EATING DISORDERS AND FOOD TALK
    .
    .
    .
    Does anyone have advice for someone in ED recovery working in an office surronded by free junk food. There’s always leftovers and sweets around and almost every celebration revolves around food. I’m working on developing a healthy relationship with foods and sweets but I still have a long way to go. I’m really scared of falling back into a binge/purge – restrict cycle.

    1. Reba*

      Sorry you’re dealing with this, Cupsong. I’m sending you good thoughts.

      You might find some help or encouragement in the answer and comments of these past posts
      https://www.askamanager.org/2018/06/my-coworker-keeps-pushing-junk-food-on-me.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/06/update-my-coworker-acts-like-the-food-police.html

      One thought I had was, is it possible to move your workspace so that you have less exposure to the food, seeing it or walking past it — that would be assuming it’s generally in one place.

      Is there anyone you work with that you feel would be safe to confide in about this and the issues you are facing? You might find that you are not the only one who would rather not have donuts all around them, and it could be easier to shift office culture on this if there is a group invested in it.

      I also recommend Ruby Tandoh’s recent book “Eat Up,” which is all about shifting attitudes around food — but note that it is, well, all about food, so if thinking too much about food stuff isn’t right for you now, pass.

    2. CheeryO*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this! I’m probably not the best person to give advice since I wasn’t in an office environment when I was struggling with an ED, but I would imagine that one of the biggest things is to be okay with turning down food if you don’t feel like you can handle it. Don’t let the office food police push you into eating anything you don’t want to eat. Repeat as needed: “Ehh, not too hungry today!” “Oh, I just ate, thanks!” If there’s someone who’s a repeat offender, don’t be afraid to be more assertive. Your health comes first, and people like that don’t stop to think that maybe the person they’re harassing has a complicated relationship with food.

    3. what is normal eating?*

      I don’t have any advice for you, but if you figure something let me know! You’re not alone in this struggle

    5. WellRed*

      I’ve never had an ED, but I have T1 diabetes (which by its nature can cause some issues around disordered eating) so avoid junk as much as possible. I agree with Cheeryo about the firm and cheerful “I’m fine, thanks.!” “I’ve already eaten, thanks though!” Repeat as necessary. I realize this is a long road for you. Best of luck!

  113. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    I posed on last week’s open thread that a recruiter contacted me out of the blue on LinkedIn, and that for the first time it appeared to be for a legitimate, applicable position. It took some back and forth with him (first I was told not to apply on the employer’s website, then told I did need to apply online, that sort of thing), but yesterday the employer’s HR department reached out to set up an in person interview next Friday! I’ve done some research on the company, as well as the individuals I’ll be interviewing with, and I’m feeling really good about things so far. My fingers are crossed!

  114. Are you reliable?*

    I currently have my resume posted on a popular job board. As I was job searching yesterday I found a position that I was interested in and I got excited when “popular job board” showed that my resume was a “match”. After applying, I got an email to take an assessment that the employer had set up through “popular job board”. Before I could even start the assessment I get a second email but this time from the employer themselves stating that “I was not the right fit for the position”.

    So, my question is how reliable are job boards that match your resume with posted positions?

    1. Sleepytime Tea*

      I assume that part of those job boards are a really hit and miss algorithm. Employers can select certain things they want, and you can enter certain pieces of your experience, and it will tell you if those things match up. However it simply can’t account for anything. If you need specific teapot painting experience, that might not be something that’s even an option for you or the employer to enter into the qualifications, and so your resume might appear to be a match when you’re actually missing a piece.

      It is, however, a good starting place. If it shows you’re a match, check out the description and if you still think so, then apply. But also don’t disregard any postings that don’t show as a match, and don’t assume you’re a shoe in just because it shows it’s a match. It’s like a dating website!

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Not any more reliable than recruiters who find your resume on popular job boards, claim to have read it, and then ask you to apply for a position for which you have no experience or skills (which would be glaringly obvious to any human who read the resume). It’s just based on a keyword search with no analysis of the context of those keywords.

      I guess it’s useful for the boards to drive traffic to their customer companies, but then it’s on the companies to run the actual filter.

  115. Handy Nickname*

    A coworker who is also a friend lost his grandparent this week, and the funeral is Sunday, about an hour from me. If it’s not a hardship for me to drive there, should I go? I’m in my early 20s and really haven’t lost anyone or had people very close to me lose someone yet and don’t know the etiquette very well. I’d go if it would mean something to him or if he’d appreciate it at all, but don’t want to do it if it would just make him uncomfortable. Help?

    2. fposte*

      I’d say card, not funeral attendance. Even parents I’d be likelier to go with a card. Spouses and minor children are where we might get into attendance.

    3. Rey*

      I don’t think there’s a clear etiquette or expectation around this. My gut response is to leave a nice note at his desk, if you haven’t already, and not attend the funeral.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      There are a couple of factors to consider here. Personally, I believe funerals are for the living, and it’s never a faux pas to attend out of support; you don’t even have to speak to the mourners, but being there is the important thing. That changes, though, if it’s a small, family-only funeral, which some are. How did you get the details? Did they say anything about visitation? Your clues might be in there. If you get the impression that it will be big, then you shouldn’t feel awkward. But if it’s very small, then skip it and send a card (you can do that anyway if you feel uncomfortable going).

      It might make you feel less awkward if someone else from work goes with you. Kind of a show of support from the team.

    6. Beancounter in Texas*

      I think unless your boss expressly said she’d appreciate coworkers coming, send a card expressing your sympathy.

    7. Handy Nickname*

      Thanks everyone. A few more details: we’re fairly close friends outside of work- it’s a small department in a very casual workplace with a lot of blurred boundaries. For anyone else I’d say yes to a card, but it would feel odd for him in particular- not really a card guy, plus we see each other day and text frequently, so it would just feel odd. I’m trying to find out on the down low if anyone else is going.

      1. Liane*

        “we’re fairly close friends outside of work…For anyone else I’d say yes to a card, but it would feel odd for him ”
        There is your answer. He is a close friend, so go.

      1. fposte*

        And it sounds like Handy is close to the living, in this case. But I’ll demur on “always go to the funeral”; it isn’t really practical advice for the extended family of all your officemates.

      2. JessicaTate*

        Ditto. Because you say you are fairly close outside of work, I would go. If there’s a viewing/visitation you could just do that part, but the funeral itself is also an option. It may feel awkward and like you don’t know what to say (“I’m so sorry for your loss” is a go-to), but it’s about the living.

        Your original post expressed concern that it would make him uncomfortable – I think that’s highly unlikely. It’s much more likely that it will be appreciated that you were so thoughtful as to show your support for him in a tough time. You don’t need to stay long, or have extended conversations with anyone (or stick around for a luncheon afterward). The value for the family is in showing up.

    9. LilySparrow*

      Having been to my share of funerals from both ends, I think “go with your gut” is good advice.

      But I’d add, be prepared to be uncomfortable yourself. Don’t show up with any expectations that he should act like a host, try to put you at ease, or give you any significant share of attention. Depending on how his family interacts, he may be happy to see you and want to use you as a buffer or confidant. On the other hand, he may be caretaking other relative’s feelings and not really notice you’re there. Or somewhere in between.

      Showing support well means no strings and no demands.

  116. Anon.*

    My old position is open in my department and I know one of my coworkers would like to apply for it. The position would be supervised by me to a certain extent, but I don’t have real manager authority over the position. I’ve been told my coworker is really interested in the position. My impression is that my boss would like to move them into this role and I know other coworkers are pushing them to apply since the open position is a great growth opportunity with a lot of potential for upward movement.

    The problem is my coworker is that I don’t think my coworker is a good fit. They don’t have good follow through, they are indecisive, and they don’t take initiative. All of these things are critical for the position, in my opinion. I also don’t communicate well with this person (I’m not sure if I’m at fault for that, but I don’t feel that I have this issue with other people I work with). I would be the person who would have to train them and pick up any slack if things were being dropped, which is where my concern comes from. I really liked that the person in this position previously was really dependable and didn’t need much hand-holding, but I foresee that not being the case with this person.

    I am planning to talk to my boss about my reservations if they do apply and we interview them. But I don’t know whether I should set aside my reservations and see if they rise to the challenge or if I should try to intervene more (ultimately though the decision is not mine).

    Has anyone else been in this position before or have any thoughts/advice?

    1. TeacherNerd*

      Well, first, this person might not actually be hired; I assume others will be interviewed. Perhaps the job won’t be what she wants, and wouldn’t accept it. There are a lot of variables here.

      If he or she is hired, S/he might do a good job. If you’re responsible for training, during that training be explicit of policy and procedure, etc. If you’re hoping to drop her in without any feedback, that might cause problems, but in any new position it’s appropriate to offer direct feedback. It would be a disappointment if feedback weren’t offered on a regular basis (by whomever is supposed to provide that feedback), meaning that this employee wouldn’t be permitted to improve performance. Some people – myself included – do badly in one type of work, but do really well in another type. (I’d hate to work for myself and/or start my own business. I HATE, with the passion of a 1,000 burning suns, working in an office. But I’m a good high school teacher.)

      FWIW, one can communicate “well” with a lot of people, but not as well with others. This is what’s caused understanding audience and purpose (the rhetorical situation): One communicates with different people in different contexts to different ends…differently. So just because you don’t have this issue with other people doesn’t mean it’s not something to not work on. It’s not a “fault” issue, it’s recognizing that there are different ways to interact with others, as there should be.

  117. Paper Plate Saver*

    I am the manager of let’s say ‘llama grooming.’ My bosses, two owners, have four locations. Each location has a manager, assistant manager, lead llama groomer, and assistant llama groomer.

    Lately, my location has had the most llamas to groom and my assistant manager has been helping groom llamas for months. So basically she is a glorified llama groomer and I am assistant less. Most locations use their assistant managers and managers for managing, not mine. All the other locations just even use the assistant manager as a back up llama groomer and have them be an assistant manager. Every time I move that direction, my bosses halt my hiring.

    I just do not know what to do. I’ve explained it as many ways as I’ve can. I cannot keep doing two people’s jobs especially with more work than other locations.

    1. fposte*

      It sounds like the message is pretty clear–they’re happy with you doing both jobs. If you find it untenable, it’s time to start looking elsewhere.

    2. Havarti*

      Agree with fposte. What sort of excuses have the bosses offered for why a proper llama groomer can’t be hired for your location? I’m assuming you’ve tried countering whatever they’ve said and it’s still not working. Time to apply “The Sheelzebub Principle” (from Captain Awkward): Ask yourself how long you would be prepared to put up with a difficult situation if it doesn’t change, and shape your actions accordingly. “Can I live with this for another month? Another year? Another five years? Ten years? The rest of my life?”

    3. ..Kat..*

      “Until my assistant is assigned back to me, I will be able to do X, Z, and R; S, V, and Q will be put on the back burner.”

  118. getting desperate*

    I have a question about references. I’ve been working at my current job for three years and it’s my first real job that isn’t a three month temp gig. I’m looking for a new job for various reasons, the biggest of which is I’m bored and there’s no room for promotion. However, the company policy is to not give any references, just to confirm you worked there when you say you did. How in earth am I supposed to fund another job with no references? Am I missing a commonplace solution here? Who is going to hired someone with exactly zero references after five years in the workforce?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      Generally, the ‘company doesn’t give references’ is for the HR office. Individual coworkers can usually give references, as can managers (though that’s dependent on whether you want your manager to know you’re looking) But nothing is stopping Bob your coworker from being a professional reference for you.

    2. Natalie*

      In my experience there are two commonplace solutions. One, using managers that have since left the company. And two, many managers ignore these policies or don’t even know they exist. The latter is trickier since you probably don’t want to let your current manager know that you’re looking until you have a job offer, and you’re less likely to get an offer with zero references.

      You can use other former managers as a reference even if they weren’t from professional jobs. Particularly for an entry level/entry level+ position, they’re mainly looking to find out if you’re reasonably responsible and not crazy, so any former boss is better than nothing.

  119. Professor Plum*

    Ugh to online applications that force salary history fields to be filled in. Especially since they posted the salary range and it’s acceptable to me–otherwise I wouldn’t apply. But my salary history shows $20K above their range and that’s ok–different job, different responsibilities and I want something less stressful with better work-life balance. Just venting.

      1. Professor Plum*

        Have you moved forward in the application process when you’ve done that? Or addressed it in your cover letter?

        1. TeacherNerd*

          Sometimes I have, sometimes I haven’t. And it’s been years since it’s been a required field (in the jobs I’ve happened to apply t0; the education jobs I’ve sought in the past 8-10 years haven’t had it be a required field). I’ve never addressed it in my cover letter because my earnings from past jobs do not, in my mind, necessarily affect what I should be earning going forward.

          1. Professor Plum*

            Thanks for your update. It’s been 4 years since I’ve had to search for a job and this is the first time I’ve needed to jump through all the online application hoops. Not fun. Thanks for commiserating.

  120. Pip pip*

    I’m at a job that is not a good fit for me. I’ve been placed on a PIP for 2 weeks that will likely end in firing because the terms are impossible to meet in this timeframe. I have a few questions.

    1. Is it commonplace for the terms of a PIP to be unattainable? Or is it just that the company wants to get rid of me? Just curious.
    2. My boss wants me to sign the PIP but has not given it to me. I asked boss about it at the 1-week mark. It’s now been 1.5 weeks. Should I keep bugging my boss about it, and if so, should I remind my boss more often? It seems kind of strange for me to have to keep bugging my boss about my PIP, but it’s also really nerve-wracking that I’ve never seen a copy of the PIP. (We went over it verbally in a meeting.)
    3. Is it better to resign, or be fired? Obviously if I resign, I would not be eligible for unemployment, but would that be better overall, since on future job applications, I would not have to say I’ve been fired from a job?

    1. Snark*

      Ideally, a PIP is an actionable plan that lays out a reasonable way forward, goals, and milestones in a workable timeframe. My feeling is that they are, sorry to say, probably just teeing you up to fire you, and that’s a well-known misuse of the PIP process. Companies feel for some reason that they just can’t fire someone, so they try to cover their ass with paper.

      It’s really, really weird that your boss refuses to give you the PIP to sign – that should have been done in the meeting where it was gone over verbally. It makes me wonder if there’s some f*ckery afoot. Make a stink about this and keep bugging her. Go to her office and say, “I have not had an opportunity to review my written PIP and sign it, and I would like to take care of that now.”

      I would personally resign. It’s going to suck for unemployment, though I wonder if you could argue constructive dismissal and suggest you look into that. I would not stick around to be fired.

      1. Pip pip*

        Thanks very much, Snark!

        Re: f*ckery: maybe, but I’m going to give my boss the benefit of the doubt so that I feel better about it haha. They kept saying that they were slammed and responded to my email immediately.

        I’ve heard of at least two people in my company who were forced to resign rather than getting fired (and it sounds like they had impossible terms on their PIPs as well). I’m hoping this will be the case for me… although I should probably suck it up and resign.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If you can financially manage without unemployment, I’d say resign. If not, let them fire you.

      But like Snark said, get a copy of the PIP for your own records.

    3. BRR*

      It’s common. Wrong, but common. I don’t know if it matters at 1.5 weeks out of a two-week PIP to have it in writing (unless you end up being fired and file for unemployment) but I’d ask. If my job was on the line I’d want written goals, not verbal ones .

      So it’s technically better to resign so you don’t have to say you were fired. BUT, if it’s going to be hard to cover the situation anyways (i.e. you can’t use your manager as a reference and there’s nobody else or you were only there a short while), I say take the unemployment. A lot of ATS also ask if you’ve been fired or resigned instead of being fired.

      And I’m sorry you’re going through this! Signed, a PIP receiver

    4. Are you reliable?*

      I would make sure that you are documenting every time you speak to your Boss about signing the PIP. From this point on I would start emailing your boss to start a paper trail. Followup thru email with your Boss after you have spoken to him/her.

    5. 653-CXK*

      Some answers:

      1. It would depend on the company and the situation. Good companies will assign PIPs your performance really is the issue; the PIP will spell out everything, including what needs to be done and the time period to improve. Bad companies will assign PIPs because they want to slither out of the responsibility to actually manage correctly, or you’ve stepped on the wrong toes.

      2. My PIP at my ExJob was verbal, but they backed it up with progressive disciplinary action (initial warning, second warning, final warning) before termination, and yes, they were on paper. In your case, email your boss, and if you can, get the boss’ boss and HR involved too. “I understand that I must sign a PIP and I haven’t received the paperwork yet. What reasonable timeframe will I receive it?”

      3. You are correct – if you resign, your are uneligible for unemployment as you’ve resigned under your own free will. If you’re fired, but it was for something else other than an illicit activity (embezzlement, breach of confidentiality, fighting, drinking/drugs on the job, weapons, insubordination) you can collect unemployment.

      In my personal experience, I tried my best to improve, but it just didn’t work out. In the interviews I’ve had with employers, I tell them why I was fired, and what I learned from that experience. Employers appreciate honesty, and if I had left that out, they would eventually discover it through my references.

      1. 653-CXK*

        Edit for #3 – edits in bold:

        You are correct – if you resign in an “at will” state, you are uneligible for unemployment benefits. If you’re fired, but it was for something else other than gross misconduct (embezzlement, breach of confidentiality, fighting, drinking/drugs on the job, weapons, insubordination) you can collect unemployment benefits as long as there is no further dispute between yourself and the company (i.e. your ExJob agrees with the reasons for dismissal.

  121. LDP*

    I’ve come to the realization that I hate working in events. We had a huge one last night, and everyone’s been asking how it went and if I was excited about it. Honestly, I’m exhausted. I worked 15 hours straight yesterday, most of it on my feet, didn’t get to eat lunch or dinner. And I’m at BEC with my boss. While I was running around all day getting things ready for the event, she was getting her hair and nails done. And while I was having to run the check in desk and hand out gift bags, she was getting to eat the apps and drink champagne. I get that she’s the boss, and pay your dues, etc., but it still sucks to feel like we’re so unequally yoked on any projects we have.

    Sorry for the rant. I’m just tired, and frustrated, and never want to stuff another gift bag for the rest of my life.

    1. Havarti*

      I hear you. We’re gearing up for an event where I work and man, it’s tiring trying to keep track of everything. I can’t wait until it’s over. And watching someone else relax while you’re running around? Yeah, that would annoy me too.

      1. LDP*

        All my friends think that work events are so fun and glamorous…glad I’m not the only one who thinks they’re exhausting!
        Hopefully your event goes well!

        1. Havarti*

          Thanks! You’re not alone. Work events are only fun and glamorous for the attendees. And your boss would be the bane of my existence. Telling you two days before about getting tissue paper? Oh heck no. Good luck finding a new job!

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Did you hate the work you did to prepare for it or are you just tired and not wanting to discuss it today?

      If you genuinely enjoy the rest of the work but hate the post event let down/post mortem, would it be possible to schedule off the day after big events?

      1. Crylo Ren*

        This! When I worked in events my boss encouraged our team to take the day after off (or at least take a half day) – she knew we’d be way too tired to function productively. The weeks leading up to an event as well as the days of the event itself are always so stressful.

        Solidarity. I ended up leaving the events field because it was just so exhausting and I was starting to get resentful of my coworkers who wouldn’t put in as much effort.

        1. LDP*

          We don’t do events often here, but now I know for sure that in my next job I don’t want to do anything related to events. Which is helpful since I’m currently job hunting.

          The worst part is that we’re a two person team. So, since my boss isn’t doing the work, it all falls to me. But she hasn’t included me in any of the planning meetings or any of the prep, so things that didn’t have to happen at the last minute worked out that way. Events are for the birds, y’all.

      2. LDP*

        I don’t think I would have minded the work I did if my boss had handled things better. She wants to be in control of everything and waits until the last second to do everything. For example, if I knew we would need 200 gift bags and enough black and blue tissue paper for them a week before the event, that would have been fine. Finding out on Tuesday afternoon when the event is on Thursday? Not so much.

        And there’s always so much to do the day after an event that there’s no way I could take the day off. My boss told me I’m lucky she let me come in a little late (we’re literally talking 15 min late).

    3. AdminX2*

      Well if it’s to that point, it’s to that point.

      I would say was there a pre meeting to allocate responsibilities and create a timeline to ensure you would at least get food breaks or to realize you needed an extra pair of hands with the boss?

      The boss’ job may be to look amazing and schmooze at this event and they were doing exactly what they should for the best outcome. But that doesn’t mean you should go without food and need a backup.

      But if events isn’t for you, please do find what makes you happy!

      1. LDP*

        Our pre-meeting was to talk to other departments about what we needed from them. Unfortunately my department went from being 3 people to 2 people in the last few months, so where I normally would have had help, there was just my boss.

        The main problem I’m having is that she’s telling her boss about how hard she worked and everything she did for this event, when I know she relied on everyone else to get it done. Honestly, I probably wouldn’t be as upset as I am if she would have at least let me have some sort of break. About every 10 min she’d have some other thing to add to my list that had to be done immediately.

        Keep your fingers crossed for me that I can find another job! I’m about at the end of my rope with this one.

        1. Crylo Ren*

          Sounds like the problem is with your boss and not necessarily with the events field (though I agree, it’s for the birds).
          Fingers crossed for you! Working in events is tough as it is, and it’s one of those fields where you really, really can’t have a hands-off, thoughtless boss.

    4. ..Kat..*

      You have a crappy boss. A good boss would have gotten her hair and nails done at a less fraught time. A good boss would have spelled you so that you could get a break here and there to get apps/drinks/bathroom visits throughout your day.

    5. Bluebell*

      Congrats on a successful event, LDP! Hopefully if you are still there when the next one comes around you can work with your boss to keep it on track. I’m on the role that your boss is, and I try not to abandon my team the day before even if I have non-event priorities that day. I also think them lavishly afterwards, and we arrange for some comp time.
      Do you do an event debrief? If so, try to be very diplomatic and see what could be set up for next time. Also, I know it’s not obvious, but as your boss is enjoying champagne and apps, she should be having important conversations, talking to people that are there for the event, and that is a type of working. I know that I’ve had discussions with my bosses at former organizations, and they wanted me to take care of logistics during the events. I had to point out that it was actually my job to be interacting with the guests, so that was why I assigned someone else to staff them.
      Some people really love events so don’t worry about leaving that as a part of your job.

  122. BirthdayWeek*

    Just went through a 6 week interview process that contained: 2 phone interviews, 1 skype interview, 1 on sight interview with five team members (I had to pay $120 to travel to and take a day off of my current job). I recieved an email today saying how well I did in the on sight interview, how qualified I am for the position, but that the company has decided to remove the role all together! Anyone else have a similar experience?

    1. Colette*

      That’s frustrating, but these things happen. I’ve been on the other end, where we are excited to be able to hire someone only to have all hiring put on hold (and sometimes even had colleagues laid off). It’s not personal.

    2. Kathenus*

      Not sure if you’ll see this, but I once had to self-fund travel for an interview that later decided to remove the role. At that point, they did reimburse us travel expenses because they realized that it wasn’t really fair to have had people pay their own money to travel for a job that now didn’t exist. Maybe ask if they’ll reimburse your travel expenses since there ended up being no chance you could have been hired, which is the good faith with which you were willing to invest your own money in the process.

      1. BirthdayWeek*

        Hi – Thank you for your comment! I did ask for travel reimbursement considering my performance was not a factor in an offer not being made. Still waiting for a reply, every day that goes by it feels less and less likely.

        Sorry to hear this happened to you as well.

  123. Rey*

    Yesterday, I finally talked to my new coworker who talks out loud to herself all day. I tried to keep it really casual and she didn’t seem put off and said that she would work on it, and our shared front office space was gloriously quiet for the rest of the day! I know this will likely pop up again in the future, but the peace and quiet yesterday was amazing! This just confirms to me everything that Allison says–the little annoying thing will not magically fix itself, you have to say something to change it. I’m so thrilled!

    1. TeacherNerd*

      I’m glad this worked!

      As I tell my students: Other People Cannot Read Your Mind; Only You Have Access to What You’re Thinking. (No one is third-person omniscient, except God, and then only if you believe this.) You have to tell people things! :-)

  124. anon anonymouse*

    I know the answer is to get out and find another job, but my area is really small and competitive. Is there a way to deal with a toxic environment with toxic coworkers? They gossip, back stab, snip, snarl, etc. It’s depressing and I come home venting every day to my bf who is getting tired of hearing about it.

    1. Havarti*

      Short-term: Disengage. Study your gossiping, backstabbing coworkers like they’re aliens from another planet. Smile politely and limit personal information sharing. Anything work-related put in writing to make a paper trail to cover yourself. Pick a hobby if you don’t have one already. Vent to yourself on the commute and then mentally pack it away in a box when you get home or write it down in a journal or get a therapist so your BF isn’t taking the brunt of it cuz that’s not fair to him.

      Long-term: Is this job in something you’re really passionate about? Is the culture in that industry toxic in general? If yes, ask yourself how badly do you want to stay in it or if your skill-set could be useful somewhere else. Because in the end you’re going to burnout on the negativity if you haven’t started already. You already know the answer is to get out.

      1. Doug Judy*

        I think most companies have That One/Two that make people miserable. Disengaging is the only way to deal with them. They aren’t going to change and as long as their performance is adequate, I find most managers don’t bother to address it.

        When my office gossip was at it, I just laugh at their ridiculousness and move on. I do the same with my relatives that drive me crazy. The are to be observed as a sociology experiment, not to be taken seriously.

    2. Snark*

      First off: stop venting. It doesn’t help. It just entrenches the negativity, and as someone who has been the daily target of a half hour of venting, it’s perfectly exhausting and unless it ends in something actionable or a decision, it’s pointless.

      Secondly, what Havarti said about disengaging. Share nothing, don’t react, don’t engage, don’t take it personally, document everything.

  125. Close Bracket*

    I have a test/interview next week. They will send me the questions at a specified time, I have one hour to answer them, and then they will call me to discuss the answers after reviewing them. While this is common in some industries, it is not common in mine. So I’m already a little annoyed. They told me the general subject matter for the questions, and I have no background in the areas, never claimed to have any background in the areas, and those areas are not part of the job description. If I had known that background in that area was expected, I would never have applied. I’m going forward with the interview, but I’m contemplating withdrawing my candidacy, depending on what the questions actually are. These are technical areas. If they ask general questions that I can research on the web, then fine. My answer will not be a good answer since I don’t have much time, but I will be able to cobble something together. If they want me to solve a problem, I’m hosed.

    Why do hiring managers give candidates tests on things they don’t know? What’s the thought process behind that?

    1. WellRed*

      Are you applying for a job as a second grader? This whole thing sounds annoying. I’d guess there’s no thought process, they just suck at interviewing.

      1. Close Bracket*

        lol, it’s not that bad. :) If I were a software engineer, I could def be expected to write a few lines of code as part of the interview, and I do typically have to answer some softball, fundamental questions on physical principles or more detailed questions about something I have actually specialized in. It’s not like technical questions are completely unheard of. It’s the combination of written, timed test and a subject I don’t know that is pissing me off. I’m going to keep your comment in the back of my mind, though, to get me through.

    2. Persimmons*

      Does the job involve doing research, or BSing your way through things/flying by the seat of your pants? Maybe the test content is intentionally off-topic for that sort of reason.

      1. Close Bracket*

        Research on what? It’s an applied physicist position, so there could be some research, I suppose, of the type that is done on a lab bench with specialized equipment. The questions are on a specific topic from electrical engineering which some physicists might have done, but which this physicist definitely didn’t. God knows most engineering is BS, but you still have to know the topic.

  126. Anne E. Nonymous*

    So I’m trying to figure out how to raise an issue in my first sort-of-in-my-desired-field job, and I’m not sure how to do this.

    For context, I advise graduate students (not as faculty — as in, I am an academic advisor and general person-who-handles-the-paperwork for them) at a university, in a STEM department. There are about 140 of them in the department, and while some of them are pretty on top of things, most of them are … well, they’re not. They chronically “forget” to register for classes, don’t turn in forms on time, and generally speaking just never seem to “get it together.” They are, on the whole, a great group of students to interact with, but their actual time management and task completion skills leave a lot to be desired. I’ve been trying to coax them into better habits to make their lives and mine a little easier, but my boss (the chair of our department) has been cutting me off at the knees a lot about it. He doesn’t actually allow any kind of consequences for not doing what they’re supposed to do, and this means that I often end up manually registering 20+ graduate students for their classes every semester — among other things. It’s a little frustrating, and it takes time away from a very full schedule of tasks that I have to complete in a day (as my office has become the departmental catch-all in the years prior to me coming into the position, so I have three distinct jobs rolled into one — another issue for another day).

    My written annual review came back with feedback on it saying that I should be treating the graduate students like “colleagues who need occasional help” instead of “students who need management.” While generally speaking I try to have a more casual relationship with the students than some of the faculty (they call me by my first name, the tone of most conversations in my office is pretty laid-back, etc.), these students very obviously *do* need some management. If they didn’t, I wouldn’t have to register them, look at their schedule to tell them when they have time to come to my office to turn in forms, or any of the other things I have to do for full-grown adults who should, by now, have figured out how to add a deadline to the calendar. Additionally, I don’t think it’s realistic to classify a colleague you need to remind to do a very basic function of their job six and seven times as “needing occasional help.” There’s an obvious disconnect here between what I see on a daily basis and what my boss thinks goes on with the graduate students, but any time I’ve raised any kind of issue with him, his response has been either “well, we’re old-fashioned about this sort of thing” or “we’ll just have to keep it in mind” … and nothing ever progresses.

    I have to schedule a meeting with him to go over what’s in my annual review next week. How do I even touch on this without sounding like I’m being defensive and petulant? If our students were, in fact, doing what they were meant to do without needing an excessive amount of prodding (and then forgetting to do it anyway!), I’m sure they wouldn’t need management, but that’s not the case here. This is further complicated by the fact that I’m really trying to work up the nerve to ask for more money as — again — I’m doing multiple very distinct jobs in my position (which used to actually *be* their own position, once upon a time) for very low pay, and it’s not sustainable for me to continue to do so unless I’m being compensated according to what I’m actually doing (or some of this vacates my very full plate). Please help!

    1. Snark*

      Your boss is kind of a weenie and needs to make his expectations clearer, I will say that.

      But. Having been at one point a grad student, the thing I think you’re missing is that this departmental paperwork stuff is just not a very high priority for them. Yes, they are grownass adults who should be able to set a calendar reminder to fill out a form! So stipulated. But they are also doing field and lab work, writing their dissertations, applying for grants, TAing undergrads, probably working a side job to make rent, and convening as often as possible to drink lots of cheap liquor and talk at each other loudly about their research. They’re not really your colleagues, they’re not really college students anymore, their classes don’t really matter, and their lab and advisor matters more to them than department business. Rightly or wrongly, the stuff you’re asking them to do is background radiation to them. That may not sit well with you, but do understand – their job, as they construe it, is to get a PhD and do research and publish papers, not to be a good department member.

      Thankfully, my department had a very kindly older lady named Jill who met with us twice a semester to belt out the paperwork and get us registered for classes and stuff, which was possible because there were fewer of us.

      1. fposte*

        I also think boss may be coming with an older-school frame of mind without realizing how high-touch students’ expectations are now.

        But I think it all ends up the same–this is a give a man a fish job, not a teach a man to fish job. You’re not managing the students; you’re facilitating their paperwork. It’s tough if your plate is overfilled, but I think you need to let go of the “they should be doing this themselves” thought and just assume the norm is that they won’t–because they won’t, and the department isn’t going to change that.

      2. Anne E. Nonymous*

        I have also been a graduate student, and the expectations I have for them (actually register for your classes, turn things in on time, etc.) were on the low end of the things I was expected to do with no reminders. I have an MS in a different field, but I’m still not sure why, even if this is “background radiation,” it’s somehow inappropriate to expect them to have to do it when our graduate handbook clearly says it’s a requirement. Their tuition waivers and stipends are dependent on their registration, for example.

        1. fposte*

          It doesn’t matter if it’s appropriate or inappropriate; it’s just that where you are, those expectations are not going to be met. If you had the backing of the department to push students to meet them, that would be one thing, but you don’t. The students you have are the ones you should expect to have.

        2. Snark*

          I didn’t say it was inappropriate to expect that of them. Like I said: I freely stipulate that these are grown-ass adults who need to attend to the small details. You are not wrong.

          But it sounds like the department culture is to treat grad students like budding Einsteins who need people to chase them down and remind them to eat meals and register for class and bathe, and it sounds like you’re being told that to do so is your role. I wouldn’t blame you for thinking that’s ridiculous bullshit, or for noping out, but it is what it is.

          Looping in their advisors would probably be a not-bad idea, though, come to think.

        3. Reba*

          It sounds like the chair sees your job as “serve students, do everything that is needed to get students through the program” whereas you are doing “advise students, try to teach students how to get through the program.”

          I think your expectations are eminently reasonable, FWIW, but your boss apparently doesn’t and so as fposte says, that’s probably how it’s going to be. All worth having a conversation about with the chair.

          Can you quantify how much time it takes for you to do all the hand-holding, last-minute registrations, etc.? How doing all the stuff that is supposed to be “self-service” impacts your other work, and whatever its value to the dept is? Good luck.

          1. Anne E. Nonymous*

            I haven’t formally tracked it, but I’ll put it this way: I cover three positions which used to be with three different people (this, course-building for the whole department, and handling the back-end course funding stuff), and am paid for 40 hours of work because as far as the department is concerned, overtime is Not A Thing. I end up doing probably closer to 50-60 hours of work depending on the week and what’s going on, because if I don’t, it doesn’t all get done.

            1. LCL*

              Are you non-exempt? If you are, (your overtime comment points that way) stop working all the extra hours. Tell your manager you have reached your limit.

            2. Colette*

              This sounds like one of those situations where people expect you to do everything because you do it. Why is it a disaster if things don’t get done because you are not working unpaid overtime? (More specifically, why is it your disaster?)

              But in the meantime, I agree that you have to do what your boss says your job is, or find another job.

              1. Anne E. Nonymous*

                I’m expected to do these things because the person before me, who was in the position for 40 years (yes, really!) took on everything that was handed to *her*, and now I’ve inherited the mission drift and people will brook no argument about changing things. It’s my disaster because in some cases, there’s no one else to do it. I am the only person in the department, for example, who can build courses — this used to be its own job, but now it’s something my position does. It’s thousands of credit hours’ worth of courses per semester, undergraduate- and graduate-level, and if it’s not done, students can’t register for them. If I could do this uninterrupted for 40 hours of the week (which is a laughable concept), it would still take multiple weeks. So, I have to take it home. It has to get done.

                I’ve suggested that some of what belonged to other positions and only went to my predecessor when someone left should probably go back to the people who currently occupy them, since in many cases it makes more sense for those positions to handle these things rather than those people handing me the information necessary to do it and having me do so with no clue what I’m actually looking at, but nobody wants the extra work.

                1. Colette*

                  Do you want this job at this cost (low pay and too much work)?

                  Sometimes no one else will take on the work because if they don’t it’ll still get done. But if you do a reasonable amount and then let it fail if that’s not enough, it suddenly becomes higher priority.

                2. ..Kat..*

                  Can you see a way to push back on this? Do they realize that if you leave, the replacement hire won’t be able to do half of the work? BTW, if you are in the USA and non exempt, this is illegal.

    2. LCL*

      Your boss wants you to treat them more like colleagues? Look at your schedule, and decide when the best times would be for you to fix registration issues. Example-registration issues handled between 10 and 12, only. Run that by the boss. Because that is treating them in a more businesslike manner. There are other work units I depend on for services; I don’t get to demand they give me what I want when I want it, I have to follow their process.

      1. Snark*

        This is complicated somewhat by the fact that 100 students will have 100 different combinations of teaching sections, their own classes, lab meetings, etc etc etc that she will need to schedule around.

        Fundamentally, this is a customer service role, not a “colleagues working together on different parts of the same goal” role.

    3. bb-great*

      I agree that it’s ridiculous for your boss to want you to take this approach to grad students. It would annoy the hell out of me, and I’m saying a prayer for the people who will have to work with them one day. But you’ve already brought it up to him and he’s made it clear that’s the way he wants it done. I wouldn’t try to change his mind about this.

      But I get the sense this is just a symptom of the real problem, which is your workload. Right now your boss has little incentive to change, because you’re getting everything done. You’re absorbing all the impact. Be clear with him that you’ve been working 50-60 hour weeks for low pay and it’s untenable to keep doing that. Talk about how much you need your work to decrease and/or your pay to increase, being as specific as possible, and be prepared to let things fall through the cracks if you have to. He may well decide he still wants you to coddle the students, but he should clear time for you to do that.

  127. league*

    I’m yet again looking for an old AAM column that I can’t find. At least I think it was AAM. Does anyone remember the one where a pregnant woman was on her condo board and the board president asked her to do some work, then sent her an aggressively clueless email about how he knew all about pregnancy because his daughter had kids and it was much harder after they were born, so the OP should do the work now?

      2. league*

        It was! Thank you! (I wrote another post but it had a link to the CA column, so it is probably awaiting moderation.)

  128. It's a Bad Start y'all*

    Urgh, I’ve been on the job hunt for a few months. No bites, so decided to invest in myself and take a certificate class while I had the opportunity. It starts this week and ends in November. Then I got an interview out of the blue! It’s for a job I’m interested in. They asked if I could start pretty soon. The job is in another state, so I’d relocate. But I just shelled out a significant amount of money to take this certificate class! It would really help me with project management. What do I do? I don’t think there are refunds for the class, and I’m sure it would be a stretch to ask them if I could start after the class finishes. Do I even mention it to them? Argh.

    1. Doug Judy*

      Did you get an offer or just an interview? If you are still in the interview stages, keep taking the class. Is there a way to take the class remotely?

      1. It's a Bad Start y'all*

        I love your username.

        It’s just an interview, but I get the feeling it’s gonna move fast because the interview process has been moving at lightning speed. I’m definitely gonna keep taking it until they possibly offer anything! The class is mostly in person since there’s hands on activities, but I’ll see if there’s any possibility for finishing it online. Timing, man. Works out weird.

        1. Doug Judy*

          LOL, thanks. I love seeing other fans of the Nine-Nine around here!

          Hopefully you get the job, but in case you don’t or things stall out with hiring and the process slows down, you don’t want to regret dropping the class for no reason.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Hiring can often take longer than you expect. If you get an offer, you can negotiate your start date. You can also negotiate that they pay you a hiring bonus to offset the fees of the class that you will no longer be able to attend. Good luck!

  129. Elisabeth*

    I’m struggling to work through some unhealthy workplace behaviors.

    My new boss seems extremely nice. Informative, educational, understanding, teacher-y. She still wants things done correctly and done on time, but she’s also been really nice and giving me allowances for being brand new and things being a mess when I came in.

    But I realize I am bracing myself every time and exhibiting so many panic/ptsd style behaviors that are just not in line with my current experience. And I can only think it’s because I was in a toxic, sick workplace for over 2 years and a toxic industry for 5 years, and I’m so used to being brow-beaten and taken to task and made to feel incompetent for every oversight or slight mistake, that I expect every workplace to make me feel like a failure and for there to be no room for learning or growth or development within a role.

    It’s just hard for me to deal with. And I’m almost uncomfortable and wish they would be a little bit meaner to me about the mistakes because I feel like I don’t know where I stand?

    Has anyone else had to work through this? I feel _lost_. And my fiancee is just frustrated with me because I should be happy about how mucher calmer it is. And I AM but it’s like I’m so anxious inside about the other shoe dropping.

    2. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      Everything you are feeling – especially the anxiety about the “other shoe” – is completely normal. I went through this and I so wish I had gotten some therapy instead of just powering through. I went from a nightmare of a boss (whose own family had given her a nickname based on her horrible behavior) to a boss who was so over the top nice that I just couldn’t trust it for months. She was the most amazing boss ever. It took me months, if not a couple of years, to accept that there wasn’t going to be a “shoe” with her. When I eventually went to a new job, I found myself falling back into my old habits of being worried. And this was after 6 years with the amazing boss! These things really do a number on you.

  130. AdminX2*

    Context: Non work, annual event volunteer committee

    Me: New to committee, known by all for years, woman mid 30s
    Him: On committee since beginning, big fish in small pond, not going anywhere, man 60s

    Request: Tips on dealing with someone being rude and condescending and pulls the “you’re too sensitive, there’s no problem here so I’m not addressing it” when I finally say “Your tone seems very…” to the group.

      1. AdminX2*

        It’s a small group to start with, think alt culture sub group stuff, and the head is pretty darn conflict avoidant. They have dealt with very difficult members the last two years and were grateful to finally drop that weight this year. My impression is this guy got away with a lot because of the worse ones and while the group in general agrees he’s being cranky at least, they want to avoid yet another conflict cycle if at all possible.

        He’s a big fish in a small pond and would have to do something really horrible to be kicked off. I do think the group will knock back if he really gets persistently bad but if I can somehow resolve directly and just not have more of his attitude that would be great.

        1. Close Bracket*

          You might be stuck with viewing him as an anthropological exhibit rather than changing him. If you can take a “This is the Privileged Older Male in his natural habitat” approach, it might make him bearable. The occasional amused, “Is that right, Fergus? Why is that now?” might be the most you can engage with his attitude.

      1. AdminX2*

        Genuinely, at this time no and am putting that in my back pocket. But we are indeed in the most hectic part of my area’s stuff and it would be very uncool to just drop it now. I love being involved and feeling valued, but my capacity isn’t up for all this.

  131. IC or employee?*

    I’m a contractor and the company I’m under contract with is being investigated by labor and industries about if we are really contractors or if we are employees. I’ve had the same question, as they mostly dictate my hours, which in my understanding is not allowed if I’m a contractor. They are a bit shady and require me to hire them to provide some services to my business as well. It is weird thing. I’m trying to get out, but I’m under contract for a while.

    What is freaking me out the most though is that they are obsessed with knowing what I and other contractors wrote in our responses to the labor and industries questionnaire that we all had to file out. I’ve gotten multiple emails and been cornered in person and called by their staff as well. So far, I’ve wiggled out of showing them what I wrote. They sent out examples for how to file out the forms as well. Is this shady to anyone else?

    1. LCL*

      Of course it’s shady, follow your instincts. If they press you, say, that was two weeks ago, I don’t remember because I do a lot of paperwork.

    3. Natalie*

      I would definitely inform the investigating agency about this behavior.

      If you have a couple hundred bucks to throw at an attorney, it might be worth seeing if any of this shady shit voids your contract. Even if you decided to stick it out, it might be nice to know that you could leave if/when it starts getting to you more.

  132. Sandra Dee*

    Our office is moving to a shared workspace/hoteling situation. I am not going to debate the pros and cons of this scenario, as we have debated and discussed ad nauseum for the past 4 weeks. It is happening, there is nothing we can do to stop it, and need to move forward. I am looking for ideas on how to manage the space that we are allocated, and to ensure everyone is aware of any unscheduled open desks (someone who is scheduled to be in the desk all day is now in a meeting all afternoon, so someone who is in the office, but in a hotel desk, can use the open space instead of reserving a hotel desk, which would put them within the work group, and not some random available place in the building). We have discussed posting in our group chat, but that is going to get unwieldy and overwhelming due to the size of the team. Things that have worked, things that did not work, what looked like a good idea, but was a complete disaster. Any and all ideas are welcome.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      So is the case that you are going to all be within a large building, but not within one smaller shared space? If people share a physical common area, then a physical white board, set up like a marriage of the Est Time for Departures board* in an airport and the sticker system from earlier this week, could work. Sometimes low tech is simple and direct. The admin who manages other calendars sticks a green sticker on the desk 12 afternoon slot.

      If you don’t have a common physical space, then this chart has to be remote–I imagine something like the software to book meeting rooms? That seems to depend on good software design, on one end, and on people being on top of updating and abiding by the information on the other end.

      *I was in an airport that had replaced this with a large individual screen, on which people could laboriously look up their flight by hitting “Departures” then “City: H” then paging through until they got to “p. 5 which includes Houston” then finding their flight to Houston, then not forgetting and wanting to doublecheck the gate because someone else was now laboriously poking their way to “Syracuse” while six people waited behind them for a turn. It was a jaw-droppingly awful display of sacrificing functionality for personal interactivity.

    2. BRR*

      We keep track of something similar by having offices and desk as “rooms” in outlook. Although it might not scale well to your size of company. It also only works in an office that is really good about scheduling things in outlook.

    3. Penguin*

      What about a shared calendar specifically for (and limited to) “I won’t be at a desk for this time period” things? i.e. Fergus has a meeting elsewhere this afternoon, so posts that to the “desk calendar” so that the rest of your group knows his desk is available for that time period.

  133. Nervously excited*

    Okay. I have an in person interview on Tuesday. I have not done an in person interview in 10 years. I am very excited but at the same time trying to figure out how mores around the interview have changed.

    1. Do I still bring paper copies of my resume?
    2. Just trying to figure out what to wear. The last interview (10 years ago) I didn’t even wear a suit; it was a tech company and I wore a blouse and pants. This new company is tech as well and mid-range startup (just got venture capital and has a real product and real market out there). Not going with a suit, expect pants/shell or blouse/co-ordinating jacket or blazer

    I am very excited but nervous.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Paper copies are always good! Don’t assume that everyone interviewing you has already received a copy of your resume at all – I’ve been pulled into interviewing people at the last minute (as part of a group). Or, they might have printed it and left it at their desk. Bring a few copies. It can’t hurt.

      The outfit you have in mind sounds perfect to me. You got this!!

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I always bring paper copies of resume/cover letter. You can’t always expect that the other side has them, and it just makes you look prepared. I also bring something to take notes on/have a list of questions pre-written so I’m not fumbling.

      Your shell/coordinating jacket/blazer with pants is perfect. It’s what I normally do, and I’m also in tech. Heck, half the time I’m more dressed than who I’m meeting.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Bring paper copies. I haven’t needed them for any interview I’ve done, but it makes you look prepared and hey, if someone happens to not have one, got pulled into the interview last minute, whatever, then you save the day. Also I HIGHLY recommend getting a decent looking black portfolio. Mine is just fake leather, has a notepad and pen in it, and then a space to hold papers (where I put the copies of my resume). It just makes you look professional. Use the notepad to write down some questions you want to ask ahead of time. I rarely did that but at my last interview I actually did and it saved me from forgetting a few things that I really did want to ask and then I didn’t have to send an email with follow up questions or anything like that. It’s also good for taking notes, if you’re that type.

  134. Miss Positivity*

    I’m really struggling with finding a line between a “positive attitude” at work and lying through my teeth that everything is fine when it’s not. I have always been “fixer,” and the type of person who is very good at identifying the things that don’t work. I’m also an inborn pessimist, and I’ll own that, for sure. But I don’t walk around with a sulk on my face bemoaning how terrible everything is. 90% of the people I work with will never know that I’m grumpy. I’m perfectly fine at putting on a smile, asking people how they are, and all the normal cheerful beats. My boss gets a different side – the calling a spade a spade, here’s what’s really going on side.

    I have no respect for workplaces that expect you to act like everything is fantastic when morale is bad and you’re miserable. I’m especially upset at this job, because I uprooted my life to relocate to a *tiny* college town because I wanted to work with my now-boss, who was formerly a colleague. Because he’s a “positive attitude” person, he did not tell me the truth about how bad and toxic things are here, and I mistakenly thought we were good enough friends that he would give me the down-low instead of the usual dance you have to do with a potential employer of looking for red flags while they try to paint a pretty picture for you. Instead I’m seven months in to this job and pissed because I would not have moved here, and I feel lied to.

    I’m getting tired of being dinged for giving a voice to the toxicity here and being told I have to keep a positive attitude. It feels like being told to lie, or told that my feelings aren’t valid, and it’s quite frankly stifling. So where do you draw the line between “being positive” and being honest, if the honesty is about negative things? Where’s the balance?

    1. AdminX2*

      You don’t owe your employer honesty in terms of your attitude and happiness index. Sometimes lying is the thing to do to get through it and move on to truly positive pastures.
      In the meantime, make sure your other life stuff is overloaded with as much passion and personal fulfillment as possible to keep perspective.

      1. Miss Positivity*

        This is a way of putting it I hadn’t thought of before – that I don’t owe them interesting. That’s a new perspective, thank you. I’m going to think about that.

    2. fposte*

      The balance is going to depend a lot on the culture you’re in, who’s hearing you, and what you mean by “give voice.” However, I’d say that honesty has limited value on its own, so that other values of the statement would need to be considered. Is what you’re saying actionable? Is it new? Is it sought? Is it prioritizable? Unasked for repeated complaints about the same thing that isn’t going to change and that matters less than other stuff may be true, but they’re not going to be well received, especially if it’s complaining to your boss. And it sounds like it’s your boss who has indicated you need to dial it back, so I’d take that seriously.

      Mostly right now it sounds like you’re angry. Understandably so, given the change in your life that didn’t work out well, but it might go better if you can separate how mad you are about what the job turned out to be from your work-hours reports of deficits and problems. And if you can’t, or if you really can’t see anything other than deficits of problems, it’s time to start looking around for another job.

      1. Miss Positivity*

        Oh, I’m definitely angry, lol. I guess this is partly more of a rant than “asking for advice.”

        You’re right. My boss is saying this, I need to listen, regardless of my feelings on the issue. And I have been trying very hard to make with the attitude change. I just still can’t shake the feeling that the message is “we don’t actually care if you’re miserable.”

        In 20 years in the workforce I’ve always been praised for my candor and honesty. Getting this response is new to me. I’m adjusting. Maybe poorly, I’m adjusting.

        1. fposte*

          I think the overall dynamic is huge here. Candor can be a great plus, or it can make somebody the broken record in a place that’s already averse to noise. It can be a tough adjustment to figure out where you are on the spectrum in a new place.

  135. Minty*

    Hi Guys! Lurker for awhile, now trying to figure out career next steps because I am burning the heck out where I am.

    I’m 31 and working for the State of California, but after 5 years of working my way to an analyst position, I’m realizing I don’t want to keep doing this my whole life! I want to help people more directly.

    So, to that end: I’m considering going to grad school online, getting a Masters in Library Science, and becoming a public librarian. Has anyone here done anything like this? Any librarians who can speak on if one school is better? Ramen recs? Tips, tricks? Or dire warnings that this is super foolish?

    Thank you!

    1. AdminX2*

      I say foolish unless you are ok with meager pay, benefits, and continued depletion of resources. I know a lot of librarians and they are all very smart, passionate, usually geeky people. But they all only do the job because it’s their love and have alternate income to rely on. Getting into a position alone can take a very long windy archaic road.

      1. Minty*

        Thank you- not a rosy picture for sure. Some of this sounds like some of the problems with public service in general, maybe worse because the state at least has decent benefits.

        But hey, information to chew on.

        1. brightbetween*

          This is another big YMMV situation. In California, public libraries are mostly departments of city or county governments, so the benefits are the same as any other public service employee. This isn’t true in all states, some of them have special library districts, like school districts, so it can vary. Generally, if you stay in California, your benefits will probably be similar to what you have at the state, though some localities have done away with pensions for new employees in favor of 401(k) so you could run into that.

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      MLIS holder here. Caveat: I knew when I went to school that I didn’t want to be a librarian, so I have not gone through the stress of trying to get a librarian job afterward (I’m in a nontraditional information career). All of what I’m about to share comes secondhand courtesy of my classmates who did go for library jobs after school.

      There are NOT as many librarian positions as the ALA’s marketing would like you to think. There are lots of librarians retiring, but more often than not, those positions are going away through attrition, not staying open. There’s a lot of competition for jobs. You absolutely will need to do volunteer/interning work if you want your resume to be considered for professional jobs. You may well have to do paraprofessional work that does not require an MLIS before you get a professional job.

      If you know what kind of librarian you want to be, make sure you research that the program you’re thinking of doing will prepare you for that kind of work. For example, the program I earned my degree from was really an L-school, not an I-school, even though it purported to be both, and if I could do it again I would have gone to a different program with more information theory coursework and less library-specific stuff. My program also did a lot of school media center coursework, so it was great for people planning on that for their career.

      Your best bet might be to try to find some recent alumni from programs you’re looking at, and ask them what the program is really like. Good luck!

      1. Minty*

        Thanks- I’m leaning towards the L-side and trying to figure out a focus. Leaning more toward public libraries than a school or academic library focus…

        Which will be the hardest, lol.

        I had to do a really similar process to get in with the state- take a non-professional part-time job just to get in, then network your way up into something that matches your qualifications/ education . I’ll have to think about if I can go through the process again. It might be easier since I’d at least have some level of passion for the endgame…

        1. fposte*

          I would really recommend some solid volunteering at a library in the meantime. It’ll give you a clearer idea of whether you want to do it or not and give you a real advantage in applying to programs.

          1. Minty*

            That’s a really good idea, thank you! I’ve been so distracted trying to sort out if this is even a thing I can do financially…

            I’ve submitted some volunteer applications, so fingers crossed!

        2. KayEss*

          Just to chime in on the volunteering thing… my husband got his public library job by essentially working for free, teaching every “computer basics for retirees” course he could wrangle and generally being very, very present as a volunteer at that location for months. When a part-time evening desk position opened, he was a convenient warm body with a MLIS and a decent record of not being a jerk to patrons.

          Also, seven years later, he’s still in that part-time, no-benefits position. I’ll grant that it’s partly because of a health situation that prevents him from (probably ever) doing full-time work, but my impression is that it’s not unusual for the staff below director level to all be pulling part-time shifts at multiple area libraries–this in an area where libraries are actually fairly well-funded. They did eventually give him a small collection to manage… but it came with a frank acknowledgement that if they were to fill a position for the rest of his ongoing duties now, it would be with someone non-degreed who they could pay less.

          1. Minty*

            Thank you too for telling me your husband’s story.

            The lack of full-time employment and juggling priorities and the general attitude of trying to find someone they can pay less has been my nightmare scenario for quite a while, so I do need to ask myself if that’s something I’m willing to risk – and what I’m willing to do if it happens.

            1. KayEss*

              To be fair, he didn’t do much of any practical library work or volunteering while earning his degree–his goal was to find a non-library job where he could do more information science-related work, so all his coursework and networking while in school was aimed at that. So if you’re proactive about it you can be in a much better position than he was when you graduate.

              He also genuinely really likes his job and would probably be cross that I’m making it sound so grim! But the reality from my end is that he likely could not survive without me working full-time at a decently-paying job that provides insurance for both of us.

        3. brightbetween*

          I would also recommend volunteering to see if it’s something you really like. One thing you want to remember is that being a librarian (in a public-facing position anyway) is a lot of customer service, so things like constantly getting interrupted, having to make sure you have adequate staff scheduled, working evenings and weekends, are all part of the gig.
          As far as the availability of full-time, benefitted positions, that is going to vary a lot depending on your location and the size of the library systems in your area. Small library systems are more likely to rely on part-time staff with only a few manager and admin full-time positions. Large library systems are different and will usually have more full-time staff. I work for a mostly suburban library system in a major metropolitan area with over 30 branches. We have about 90 full-time librarian positions. Of those, about half are entry-level. It is true that if you can take a paraprofessional or a non-benefitted, hourly librarian position while you’re in school, it makes it much easier to move into a permanent position with that experience.

          1. Minty*

            The customer service aspect is why I’m looking forward to it, honestly. I have pretty good interpersonal skills and high empathy, and my brain loves latching on to shiny new problems that need solving now. I’m fine with non-standard hours too- it’s the one part of being a barista I miss (what I do not miss: being treated as disposable, making Frappuccinos, $10/hr).

            Your library system sounds a bit like the one I’m hoping to break in to – those aren’t amazing odds. But I don’t quite want to run away in fear :)

            1. brightbetween*

              Another thing to keep in mind is that the majority of entry-level librarian positions are in youth services, so expect to be inundated with tiny people

              1. Minty*

                That’s cool – I wanted to be a teacher before I did some interning (mercifully as an undergrad and before I tried to pay for a teacher’s cert), and some more living, and figured out that the school structure wasn’t going to do it for me –

                But the idea of being able to help kids (and adults!) learn how to love reading and learning, and that the world is so much bigger and weirder and complex than you’re usually taught in school (goodness knows I wasn’t), is the ideal for me, in terms of getting to interact with people professionally.

                And well, it can’t be like that all the time – but to start every day with a chance of being able to do that? That sounds pretty great. Even the petty politics and bureaucracy sounds way more bearable, in service of being way closer to the helping action.

                1. formerly a public librarian*

                  ALA midwinter is in Seattle. If you can afford to attend, do. You can meet people, talk to a variety of library school reps. Attend meetings.

    3. Anon Librarian*

      The job market’s neither as weak as some would have you believe not as strong as ALA marketing suggests. I’m in a senior management position in a large public library that does a lot of hiring. We get a lot of applicants for positions, but only a very small number of those are truly competitive. Someone coming into librarianship as as second career will have an advantage over the competition (so many of your skills are likely transferable)

      That said, it really helps to have some geographic flexibility if you go into the field — there are usually only so many public library jobs in a given region, sometimes almost all under a very small number of employers, such as the local big city or county systems. If you can’t get in there, and you’re unwilling to relocate regionally or even nationally, you can find yourself stuck without prospects. This what happens to every MLIS student who goes to grad school and then decides they’re only willing to work for 1 or 2 systems in the metro region where that school is located. That job market will naturally be especially competitive, and then they go and post that there are no library jobs…when the more accurate truth is that there are no entry-level professional librarian jobs within a 30-minute commute of their school. I got a full-time job within a month of graduation during the Great Recession, but I moved halfway across the country for it.

      My other piece of advice is: don’t begin library school without having at least volunteered in a library, and don’t graduate library school without having some some significant practical work in one. And if you want to work with youth, get some experience before graduating working directly with youth if you don’t already have it.

      You’d be surprised at how many people manage to complete library school having never held an actual library job! (Hence the high numbers of not very qualified applicants.)

  136. Uncreatively Named*

    TL;DR – Husband received a gift from entire company but most likely came from subordinate. How can he give it back? Suggestions or links to AMA posts welcome!

    This came up yesterday. It was my husband’s birthday and I made brownies for him to take to work which is a tech based start up. All is well, brownies are a hit and gone by noon. Great. I receive a Facebook message from a new hire, Larissa, who I have met socially; asking: “I wanted to get a card & something special for [husband’s name] today, is there anything you know he’d love? A sweet, a snack, a drink (alcohol or no)? Anything helps!! Thank you!”. I wrote back saying that is a lovely gesture but not needed, if however you wanted to do something, sing “Happy Birthday” to him (with other employees) or a handwritten/store-bought birthday card would be perfect. I stopped there but I did consider saying you shouldn’t gift up (husband and I believe in NOT gifting up). I decided against it because I’m the wife and really only know of the culture from husband’s perspective (it is really dysfunctional and husband is trying to change it), there are boundaries I see Larissa and CEO have already crossed (COO confirmed my suspicions without me prompting) and I did not have an opportunity to discuss a detailed response with husband (I was late responding because of meetings). This is Larissa’s first job out of college but she has had co-ops. She is a new sales rep for the start up.

    So husband came home with a gift of 12 year old Scotch (~$50.00) and a card with everyone’s signature. He also said Larissa brought out her Ukulele and everyone sang Happy Birthday to him. I told him my story and we have come to the conclusion that this is an up-gift. He thought it came from the CEO and/or COO. But we are pretty sure she had the idea and bought the Scotch but we don’t know if it was with company funds. I do know that all of it was unusual to how non-leadership birthdays were celebrated and CEO and COO will have bruised egos if they don’t receive something similar for their birthdays now. I am looking for any suggestions, or a AMA post I missed (for myself or my husband) on how to return this gift so non-leadership employees know this is not an expectation of my husband’s.

    Husband’s job clarification: He is part of the leadership team (1 of 3 a 4th starting next week) and does branding, PR and marketing, he is mostly silo-ed with no direct supervision of employee(s) at this time; he reports directly to CEO. He does have indirect authority over all employees because he has been setting up systems for their customer service protocols and community outreach which is part of his job but also has been tasked to do HR/on-boarding (not part of job description) because of COO’s unwillingness (other issue to ask about). So like all start ups murky boundaries and get it done with as little resources as possible.

    1. Reba*

      My thinking is that your spouse should talk to Larissa and get more information. He can frame it as, the company is young so we don’t really have policies or norms for recognizing birthdays and accomplishments, so we’re going to figure that out. Then he and his colleagues should write a little policy spelling out no gifting up, and share it.

      If she used her money, he should return it. If she used company money, maybe he can leave it in the office to be shared?

      1. Uncreatively Named*

        I like the wording of, “the company is young…”. Today, he was trying to get clarification if it was company monies or her own, since he was offsite with CEO and COO. I know a policy will get written because he will do it. The main question will the CEO and COO follow it (they don’t follow most policies now and employees complain to husband about it) but I can’t worry about them since that issue out of my control. I know husband will follow up and set the corrected example. Thank you.

    2. WellRed*

      As his wife, you shouldn’t have been involved in this At All.
      Larissa either doesn’t understand business norms (she’s young, she’ll learn), or she’s sucking up to your husband/senior leadership in some way?

      1. Uncreatively Named*

        In most cases you are right I should not have been involved but I welcome any questions from Larissa or someone else in the company because you can give a professional answer, even if the question is not. Also I didn’t give the full context of why she would ask me directly. I met her professionally through my networks prior to her joining my husband’s company. I’m an alumni of the school and engineering programs she and 5 other employees graduated from. The company and college are located in the same city, my hometown and my husband and I are very active in promoting the community. My husband and I attend a yearly college event that encourages networking with alumni and met her 2 years ago. She is 1 of 4 female engineers that have been hired within the last month, no other women were hired prior to this group and I am active in the local SWE (Society of Women Engineers). I am a known resource within the startup beyond being the wife of an employee, my husband and I, plus my family are minority investors, I sit on the advisory board specifically for manufacturing, gender diversity and pay equality, and I organized the board to help relocating employees and their families to get to know the area and region and direct them to resources they might need like realtors, doctors or where to find their interests and activities around the area. The company has hired internationally and has not given relocation support in the past to even find a reputable realtor. So in this context it was appropriate to ask the question.

        BUT I am very concerned about other behavior of hers. I wasn’t able to reply until later in the day so she shouldn’t have gone ahead with organizing and buying a gift. Since I was unavailable, ask someone within the company before proceeding. At a company social gathering over the weekend Larissa and the CEO were dancing and touching very inappropriately. That is a very different topic that I don’t want to get into right now but I am working on the interest to the the board and investors.

        1. WellRed*

          Thanks for the context. Makes much more sense. It will be interesting to see how Larissa works out in this role.

        2. valentine*

          I see the card/singing as gifting/sucking up. Her ukulele? Larissa contacted you socially, as the boss’ wife, as a personal, not professional, resource. You’re way too involved and no one should be buying cards for or feteing management. You didn’t give her a professional answer. You created/cemented an expectation. Ideally, you would’ve told your husband and he would’ve told her not to do anything personal for bosses, then told anyone else you’ve been doing this with what he’s setting as the professional standard/boundaries.

  137. Havarti*

    Can we just fast-forward to Christmas? I have so much on my plate between now and then that I would like to wake up tomorrow and have it be December 24. Anyone else want to go time-traveling into the future with me?

    3. LDP*

      I’m in! I love this whole holiday season (starting with the beginnings of fall, through Halloween and Thanksgiving all the way to Christmas) in my personal life, but it’s insanity at work.

    5. Forking great username*

      YES. Maybe my nine graders will have chilled out a bit by then and have stopped being a perpetual reminder of why I don’t teach middle school.

      Plus Christmas break. I’m totally in!

  138. AnonOnThis*

    My boss has brought up the idea of testing a pilot work from home program. We will start testing this in the fall, with the goal being to implement it full-time in the winter/spring.

    However, I foresee a few problems that no one seems to notice (and, it is important to note, I am the only staffer here who actually has worked from home in a prior role. Everyone else only has in rare cases, like snowstorms).

    1. There is no requirement for childcare. I myself would not be impacted by this, unless pets fall under the child requirement. We do have some staff with very young children, as well as some with older children. Having worked from home myself as a parent, I was required to have childcare. He “does not see this as a problem”.

    2. No requirement for high speed internet access at home. One staffer lives in a rural location with spotty internet.

    3. No provision on a set schedule: it looks like it will be a “whenever” sort of thing. I can definitely see some taking advantage of this.

    I am not in a position to bring this up, and truthfully, I do not WANT to mostly work from home. We are already isolated at our company, as our job site is far from the main location, and I see this making it even worse. I think this is primarily for one or two staffer’s benefit — the ones who have very small children, but having worked from home when I had an infant, I know it is virtually impossible!

    Ideas/thought/???

    2. BRR*

      Maybe you could just throw out there that you recognized a few things that made a work from home situation work well based on your past experience and are available if they want the input (probably phrase the last part better than I did).

    3. Doug Judy*

      It sounds like the boss is going to let things fall where they may and assumes the people who have small kids/internet issues will either figure a way to make it work, and if they don’t he’ll address it with them then. Unless you are required to pick up the slack of balls get dropped, I wouldn’t worry too much about others situations.

      2. valentine*

        Only mention the issues that will affect your work, then report if they come to pass. Resist the urge to tell him to call you Cassandra.

    4. OtterB*

      Ask him to think in advance about how you will evaluate the pilot program. What does success look like? Are there productivity measures, job satisfaction measures, responsiveness to emails, etc. that you want to consider? This will give the organization a framework to think about what’s working or not working a month or two in, at which point the issues you’re pointing out may show up as problems (or may not, depending).

    5. Ann O.*

      I would caution against the “virtually impossible” verdict. I worked from home without childcare when I had an infant. It was not fun. Working from home with childcare was preferable. But I was able to do it with some help from my manager (around work hour flexibility), and while I suffered emotionally, my work did not suffer.

      Now that my child is older, work from home sans childcare is a cinch. My child is generally at school when I need to work from home, but even when home, they can respect business calls and entertain themself.

      So much of these things depend on the kids, the work, and the worker. If someone’s work is suffering due to lack of childcare, presumably the workplace will notice. You say this is a test, there should be an opportunity to evaluate and course correct.

  139. Mollie*

    Would someone please help me with a grammar question? I’m having trouble googling. It is for a yardwork flyer with a list of yard work available. One of the points is that we are willing to rake leaves. Currently, the bullet point says leave raking. I’m sure that isn’t right. I think it should be leaf raking or better yet raking leaves. What says the comment board?

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      vote for raking leaves. I’ve never really heard anyone say “leaf raking” and “leave” without the S doesn’t mean anything related to trees. :)

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      Depends on how you’re listing your other skills. If they start with verbs, then raking leaves. If they start with nouns, leaf raking. You’re on the right track.

    4. Havarti*

      Which one you go with depends how the other bullets are set up. If you have grass cutting, tree pruning, etc. then “leaf raking” fits the flow. Cutting grass, pruning trees, etc. then use “raking leaves.”

      1. Mollie*

        Thanks so much everyone. I knew I was right but it’s been a big to do this morning about who was correct. (one of the designers is one of those I’ll argue any point for the sake of arguing) Of course the boss came along, said leave it for now, and run 100 copies. It’s frustrating but I can go in and change the file for the next run.

  140. NonprofitBurnout*

    Weird volunteer experiences: What is causing this?

    Just two days ago, I was “removed” from a volunteer position with a local progressive group by having my group email account deleted with no comment from anyone. This occurred after I declined to drive an hour round trip to meet two other volunteers at a restaurant. Rather than just email me or schedule a conference call, the two men decided to end my involvement with the group. This feels vindictive and unprofessional to me. Given that it’s just volunteer work, and I’m actively job searching, I refuse to allot much time and energy to being upset. What are your thoughts, AAM community?

    Another incident happened earlier this summer when I canvassed on behalf of a rather progressive and controversial nonprofit. The canvass lead, a paid staffer, proved to be distracted with childcare issues and actually laughed when a home occupant threatened to shoot me if I didn’t leave her property. The staffer also provided inaccurate information about the meeting location, the quota for literature drops and survey results at homes, and wanted me to use my own personal device rather than the organization’s because she failed to charge the device prior to the canvass.

    Both of these experiences have soured me on volunteering. Please tell me that I’ve just been very unlucky and this level of unprofessional and disorganized behavior is not the new norm.

    Thanks for taking time to read and provide commentary. I appreciate your insight.

      1. Greensleeves*

        Agree — it’s both.
        Too many nonprofits think they can dump everything on volunteers without providing training, support, or appreciation. When money is tight it’s the first thing to go. Very frustrating for all involved, including staff.

        Choose something established or join a friend who’s happy with her volunteer work and dip a toe in. Always start small until you see what the org is like. BTW those two guys sound like asses who don’t know what volunteers are, and their org is going to fold.

    2. Holly*

      I think you should look inwards to see if there’s any way you miscommunicated or rubbed anyone the wrong way, just in case. If not, I’d say you’re unlucky. There are organizations with really wonderful missions but awful employees/volunteers.

    3. LilySparrow*

      Are these established nonprofits with a governance structure, independent board, and a lot of ties to the community? Or are they newer, smaller organizations, nonprofits based elsewhere that don’t yet have stakeholders in the community, or loose collectives of likeminded people?

      Nonprofits often have more flexible standards of professionalism and can be overly influenced by a few dysfunctional personalities. But in general, an organization with strong structure, internal accountability and community engagement is going to be run on more professional lines than one without those backstops.

      1. NonprofitBurnout*

        LilySparrow, thanks for the thoughtful comment and for helping me put my experiences in more context. Please see below for more information about my particular experiences. Thanks!

        The progressive group is very new and has no money for anything–business cards, website oversight, promotional materials, etc. It is entirely run by overextended volunteers from the for-profit world who have political aspirations but no formal training/work experience in the field.

        Prior to being abruptly removed, the group leaders called me with no warning and demanded my attention and asked me to expend time, money and capital on promoting their undefined goals. They also assigned me oversight of volunteers but contacted said volunteers alerting me. This caused some confusion, as you might imagine (and led to the volunteers stepping away rather quickly).

        For the other nonprofit, it’s the local chapter of a national group that the U.S. government constantly threatens to defund. The staffer charged with outreach has no previous experience with nonprofits or canvassing. I am sympathetic to her learning on the job and being a single mother with a young daughter. However, if your position requires you to lead volunteer activities such as canvassing, there’s no reason for you to be unprepared and distracted with personal matters. I gave up my Saturday afternoon and used nearly half a tank of gas driving around for the canvass and only came away with a threat of violence and a great deal of frustration.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I’m sad to say that I don’t volunteer my time anymore (money and goods only) after two bad experiences with very different organizations – nothing personal to me, I just found that my efforts were not valued whatsoever. However I recognize that there are a lot of places that do good work, and I was probably just unlucky too.

    5. valentine*

      Both are potentially hurtful and the latter is frightening, but it’s hilarious that the men cut you off for not being their doormat. I don’t know if this is common, but you can stick to larger, more professional, better-structured orgs. Maybe find another way to help the causes, but save your in-person work for places with set times/tasks/transparency about expectations of you.

  141. Rachel*

    Professional vs. Fashionable Clothing

    I’m in a career field dominated by men, many of whom were prior military and have a “dog eat dog” mentality.
    Many of my duties involve giving presentations, and like or not, perception of competence is a key part of my job.
    I worry that if I dress in a matter that is flattering (i.e. heels, skirts, colors) that it will call attention to myself and put my briefing’s credibility into question. However, after being in the military for years it would be nice to shake things up and wear something besides a white button down and slacks. What is the compromise between professional work attire and clothing that is pretty and fashionable? Should I not worry about this and just wear the pink blouse if I want to?

    1. AdminX2*

      Go with traditional militaristic cut and style of clothing, but in interesting colors and details. Try it a few times and see what happens. Remind people regularly that inclusion is the goal.

    2. Rey*

      I would wear the pink blouse, but I think there is a line (pink blouse is the loudest element and everything else in the outfit is conservative) between “responsible working woman” and “just stepped out of Legally Blonde”. It can also be conveyed in things like how heavy your makeup is, how high your heels are, and how modest vs. revealing your clothing is. I hope this helps!

    3. Annie Moose*

      There’s a lot of colors other than white and pink! I’m sure you were just using that as an example, but if you aren’t sure how it’d be taken, why not try experimenting with some more neutral colors first, like navy or gray? Or jewel tones, which can look quite nice but aren’t bright and flashy. Basically, if you’re worried about going whole hog, start with something small (wearing heels with the white button down/slacks combo, or wearing a brighter colored shirt with your slacks) and see how it goes.

      Confidence can be a big part of this too–if you’re very confident in what you’re talking about and have confident body language, that’ll come through. If you’re nervous and awkward because you’re worried about what you’re wearing, then that can definitely come across as if you aren’t trustworthy. You gotta own it!

    4. TheWonderGinger*

      “responsible working woman” and “just stepped out of Legally Blonde”

      THIS. You can be professional AND fashionable. As former military myself, I can understand the desire to shake things up after being in a uniform for so long. I love wearing dresses and skirts, I build a lot of my wardrobe around grays, blues, purples, and blush. I’ll pair a gray sheath with a black blazer but then add color with a turquoise necklace and blush pumps.

      For inspiration I highly recommend checking out sites like Banana Republic, LOFT, Calvin Klein ( which you can find at TJ Maxx/Marshalls quite often) etc.

      There’s a chain around here called Style Encore, it’s high end resale and they offer complimentary styling. If you have one around you I would take advantage of it. A store local to you will also be able to know your regions culture and what trends are more on point for your demographic.

    5. Ender*

      I used to always wear a nice pantsuit and daytime makeup (natural colours) when giving presentations. Also in a Male-dominated field. I’m very petite and Ann Taylor is great for my size. If you’re wearing pants it doesn’t matter if you have heels or not so long as the length is appropriate.

  142. Cobblestone*

    I work in an open office in half-wall cubicles. My coworker decided to put a call on speakerphone. She sits right next to me, although I was the only one in the office at the time. I was so distracted during the call (nothing to do with my work). This is the second time she’s done this, so afterwards I had to ask her to use her headset (which we all have!). She said she put him on speakerphone because she didn’t want his annoying voice right in her ear. I guess she decided everyone needed to hear his annoying voice too. Ugh.

    We have different bosses, both remote, so nothing much I can do if she decides not to use her headset next time. I’m the only other person in the office for the next few weeks as well. ARGH.

      1. Cobblestone*

        I have a desktop phone but I suppose I could forward it to my cell phone to take calls. That’s not a bad idea, thanks! I’m just annoyed that I would have to accommodate her instead of her respecting a shared space, haha.

    2. BRR*

      I’d just repeat my point. First time “Hey it’s difficult to focus on my work when you take a call on speaker phone, would you be able to use a headset/take the call somewhere else?” “I don’t know their voice in my hear.” “Yeah I really need to be able to focus on this teapot project. Thanks!”

  143. Time for a gnu name*

    Is it normal at a non-religious-industry convention to have an opening prayer? If so, does it annoy anyone else that is not religious or is not of the Christian faith? I attended a state-wide convention yesterday and there was an opening prayer (complete with references to Heavenly Father, God and His Holy Son Jesus), and it reminded me that there’s been one at every convention I’ve attended over the last 12 years. It bothers me so much because it’s such a blatant exclusion of every other belief out there! I know I should expect it and just deal with it as I have been (standing quietly, to be respectful while everyone else stands & prays) but it gets my goat that no one on the planning committee seems to have given thought to the fact that not everyone in attendance is going to want to pray as part of a work related (might I add, required) convention. It really aligns with the general lack of diversity in my state, that is even more noticeable in our industry, so it’s not really a surprise. There were literally two persons of color in attendance out of about 80-100 people. Ugh. Guess I needed to vent!

    1. AdminX2*

      In some places it’s completely the norm, in others not at all. You can make an anonymous complaint that they need to either include all faiths or not do it at all, but there could be repercussions anyway. If a group is comfy being exclusionary, there’s not much you can do if you aren’t at the top except leave.

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      I feel your pain!! At a (state!!!!) agency where I used to work, there were a few social events – but still on the clock, work social events – that were opened with a prayer led by one of the employees, who was also a pastor outside of his day job. It was so uncomfortable for me, and I’m just an agnostic. It’s not appropriate. It’s icky.

    4. Ender*

      I live in a country where Christianity is actually enshrined in the constitution and I would find that really weird and off-putting.

      Culture is a funny thing.

  144. OhGee*

    I just sent my references to a job I’ve been interviewing for. I’ve had three rounds of interviews, met more than 10 people, and have a very good feeling about the organization, the team, and the role. Fingers crossed! I’m super excited.

  145. mcr-red*

    So at the beginning of August, I went on a job interview that once I got there, suddenly wanted website design experience when it was never mentioned in the job description. They told me they would make a decision within a couple of weeks. I’ve never heard anything back. Is this common now, for employers to just never contact you again if they’re not interested? I knew as soon as the job description had magically changed, I wouldn’t get the job and they were kinda weird pre-interview. (They called for brief phone interview, said they’d call back to make appt for in-person interview, didn’t call back for a month, finally called and set up in-person interview, called back a week later and changing in-person interview time.)

    1. It's me*

      well judging by how long it took them to do everything else it is also possible they haven’t gotten around to making a decision yet

    2. irene adler*

      Yes, it is very common to go radio silent on the candidates they are not interested in.

      And tacking on additional job description requirements is a common way to exclude those candidates they’d rather not hire. I get that a lot.

  146. Ptarmigan*

    Don’t need advice, I guess, just commiseration. I have a great job overall and a boss with whom I have an inappropriately close (not romantic) relationship. About 9 months ago, she asked if I knew any unemployed geniuses. It happened that a friend I’ve known since college (mid-90s), who is one of the top 5 smartest people I know, and whose job seemed similar to what we do, was unemployed, so I recommended my boss interview him for a job on our small team. She hired my friend and it was not worked out AT ALL. My friend not only hates the job, but is bad at it, doesn’t communicate, avoids his internal customers, gives bullshit answers about deadlines, etc. It’s been just disastrously bad. I’ve managed to stop caring about him getting fired (which isn’t imminent but probably should be), but my boss likes to vent to “good” team members about “bad” team members (!) and will sometimes vent to me about how awful my friend is, even saying things like, “I hope when I fire him this looks terrible on his resume,” and, “I just don’t think he has the inner strength to succeed in life.” This stuff makes me feel just awful to hear, but I don’t want to push back (harder) against my boss talking to me, since this situation is kind of my fault and she’s already ignoring it when I say things like, “I see where you’re coming from, but I’m not the right person for this conversation.” Ugh. I’m never recommending someone for a job again (certainly not someone I haven’t actually worked with).

    1. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      Oooo, that’s a tough spot to be in! Kudos to you for keeping some perspective! Good luck!

    2. here and now*

      I’d respond cheerily, “I’ll be sure to tell him that when I see him!”

      Then when she says, “no, don’t tell him.”

      I’d be wide-eyed and innocent … “wait, why are you telling me this then … maybe you shouldn’t tell me … “

    3. Holly*

      I think you can feel free to say exactly what you said in your post. ““I see where you’re coming from, but I’m not the right person for this conversation.”

      1. Ptarmigan*

        I did, repeatedly. (Well, not those same words repeatedly, but mixed in with long silences and, “This is really painful,” and, “I really do get it,” etc.) Didn’t help. I considered hanging up the phone but I didn’t want to deal with the anxiety that would have caused me later.

        1. valentine*

          It’s never too late to reset boundaries and suffering isn’t sustainable. The fact she’s on the phone is great. You can broken-record and redirect her each and every time: “Nevertheless, I am not the appropriate audience for this and what color glitter are we going to use for the TPS reports?” You can set a timer and end the call. Any chance of getting her to switch to email/IM?

    4. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I recommended a friend once. Really pushed for her to be hired into our department, even though I could tell there was some hesitation from my boss. I thought it was just that she didn’t know if she wanted close friends working together (we had been friends for over 10 years), but I suspect she had reservations about her doing the job because my friend was awful. She and I have always enjoyed a good vent session, but I didn’t know until I worked with her all day that she’s almost relentlessly negative. There are a number of things I could list here that made her a terrible, terrible fit and I just have no idea why I couldn’t see it until we were in the office together. It actually almost ended our friendship. I couldn’t vent about work to her because she was the cause of a lot of my frustrations and I had a huge amount of guilt for pushing for her in the first place.

      I don’t think I have advice. I got lucky and my friend ended up quitting to go somewhere else before it came to a firing. Any chance your friend is job hunting since he hates the job? Perhaps he’ll move on soon. Good luck!

  147. Cuddles*

    AAM commentariat, I could really use your brains! I’m currently trying to help my husband move into the next phase of his career, but only have a vague idea of where to begin looking. His past ten years have been as a mover for his brother’s company, progressively gaining more experience and expertise- they’ve gone from shlepping college kid’s stuff to dealing with a higher end clientele, antiques/art, etc. The irregular hours (and pay) are starting to wear on him, so I’m helping him put together a resume and look for something new. The problem is that besides something like working in a warehouse (which he did previously and was good at it), I’m kinda at a loss as to what types of jobs to look for. He’s great at logistics & figuring out spatial things, is a total numbers freak. While he’s probably more at home in a less formal environment, I think he’s open. Can anyone offer advice as to where to begin?

      1. Red Reader*

        My husband works in logistics/warehousing for one of the transport companies (best known for truck rentals) and loves it.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Light industry/fabrication shops need logistics managers. People who can track and manage inventory, receivables, and outgoing shipments according to schedule. Most of what your husband does would fit that bill. Look at local suppliers to major factories and so on.

    3. Nanc*

      Don’t big moving companies have estimators? When we moved our office the company came out and looked at all our stuff and gave us an estimate of how many movers we’d need, how long it would take, costs if we wanted them to pack, etc. If he has lots of moving experience this may be a logical step up.

      Also, take a look at your State’s Occupation and Wage Information site (Oregon’s is here: https://www.qualityinfo.org/jc-oprof/?at=1&t1=~000000~4101000000~0~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~none~0~1~1) and plug in some key words from his current job. This should bring up suggestions of occupations in that area of expertise.

    5. President Porpoise*

      Consider customs work- they often work closely with logistics providers, and experience with some of the odder stuff can be useful. Customs brokerage firms or with CBP are a good place to look.

    6. Cuddles*

      Thanks to all for the help and suggestions! I’ll definitely look into this stuff more with him over the weekend.

  148. moomintroll*

    I’ve always enjoyed the Bette Davis quote, “what other people think of me is none of my business” but after reading this column, I’m wondering if that’s true. Any thoughts?

    1. Rey*

      Huh, I would not have thought of that. I really appreciate Bette’s forthrightness and direct attitude, and I feel like it relates to control buckets a little, like recognizing the difference between what you control (your own actions, words, behaviors) and what you don’t control (how other people perceive your actions, words behaviors). In that way, I don’t think AAM rains on Bette’s parade at all. I think there is a lot of advice that is simply put, “Ask directly and concretely for what you need, and realize that you might have to live with it if they’re not willing to change.” There is a certain amount of, “Don’t do this thing because it will be perceived negatively and affect the way someone treats you/trusts you in a work setting”, and I think both can live in the same space. I’m probably overthinking it at this point.

    2. Ender*

      I’ve always interpreted “none of my business” in that’s quote as “I’ve decided I don’t give a rats ass” rather than “I don’t have any right to know.”

  149. Trilby*

    Sorry to be in a complaining mood today . . . .

    I am in a new-ish job at a specialized college with 500 students and 200 staff/faculty, and we often host public events, so there can 1,000+ people here at one time. The school is located in a single sprawling seven-floor building in a big city.

    The building has a handful of single occupancy/gender-neutral bathrooms on the ground floor, where the public spaces are, and then each floor above (classrooms and offices) has one (maybe two) more of the same. So essentially, there are ~15 toilet stalls for the whole building. Which, as I mentioned, might have 1,000 people walking around it on a given Tuesday morning.

    Consequently, every time you have to go to the bathroom you either have to brace for a 15 minute walkabout that will include trying the door of every bathroom you pass – needlessly; they WILL all be occupied – or you have to plant yourself in front of a bathroom and just . . . wait. Then, once you’re in the bathroom, you have someone come and yank on the door handle roughly once every 20 seconds.

    It wasn’t so bad over the summer, but school is back in session and again, every bathroom break is an irritating challenge. I’m not sure how folks with gastro issues deal with this place. It’s a great job and a FABULOUS building but this is a pretty major flaw . . . .

    1. LCL*

      Solid doors leading into single user stalls, yeah? Ask facilities to upgrade the exterior lock so there is a green unoccupied/red occupied flag visible from the outside.

      1. Trilby*

        There actually is a tiny dial on the handle that shows occupied/unoccupied. You have to get up quite close to the door to see it, which is part of the awkwardness of the walkabout. Many people just walk up and grab the handle anyway before either seeing the dial or yanking on the door and discovering it’s locked. A big part (but not all!) of the problem is that there are a lot of 18-22 y/os here who don’t really care about etiquette :)

        1. AdminX2*

          I’d try the handle or knock on the door also if it the label were tiny and maybe broken. I don’t think that’s bad etiquette, just bad signage.

          1. Grapey*

            I think it’s bad etiquette. You can take the extra 2 seconds and look before you inadvertently startle someone on the crapper.

            1. LCL*

              If there is a label/signage and people aren’t following it, the label needs work. Equipment relabeller is one of the hats I wear, though I don’t have a good eye for design and delegate the design part.

              1. Trilby*

                I agree 100% that this is partly a design failure, but that’s only half of the problem; the lack of availability is also a bummer!

        2. LCL*

          Any graphic design students, or graphic design people on staff? Have one of them design a sticker that goes around the handle and points to the arrow. Vinyl stickers can be had cheap, or for a small quantity of labels used indoors just use your laminator and make your own signs.

      1. Trilby*

        It turns out there is, but it’s very complicated when you have a building with as many different public and private purposes as mine has.

  150. TK*

    My husband is getting offered a job at a well known tech company in Mountain View, California. I am so excited for him and we’re pretty sure we will take the offer and relocate. Does anyone live and work in that area, and have advice for the relocation?

    Or, is anyone a spouse of someone who’s gotten a job offer far away, and you had to find a job in the new city? Would love any advice on that front. I’ll be looking for a marketing/advertising job, which appear to be available in the area, but would likely need to do a lot of remote interviewing until we move.

    1. Sophie before she was cool*

      I don’t know where you’re coming from, but housing is very, very expensive in a very, very wide radius around Mountain View/Silicon Valley.

    2. AdminX2*

      Most places don’t hire until you live there. And remember the need to work on creating a new social network also.
      As noted below, COL is crazy in that area.

    3. Kelly*

      Adding that it’s stupid expensive (housing) and traffic is getting horrible. Good news is jobs are abundant.

    4. TK*

      Thanks to all 3 of you! I’ve begun looking at rentals, and it is pricey. We are currently in a different high COL city, so it won’t be a huge adjustment, but definitely need to factor that into salaries and commute decisions.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I used to live in Sunnyvale and Santa Clara and commuted to Mountain View.
      A) the weather is so awesome, but if you’re used to seasons you may find it hard to adjust to 75 deg and sunny 9 months of the year. There’s also a hot period in summer and ~two weeks of rain in the winter.

      B) The traffic was bad 18 years ago and from what I hear, so much worse now (as it is where I live now too). At the time I lived close enough that I didn’t deal with much commuting traffic, but I’m not sure there’s even a reverse commute anymore… As much as you can research commuting patterns remotely, do that and look for housing based on that. But as noted, that will either mean paying a LOT to live close by or living further out and having a pretty lousy commute.

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        Depends on where in Mountain View. You don’t want to be anywhere that puts you on 85 or 101 northbound in the morning, but south is okay. Just spend whatever you have to to get close to work and discard possessions like you’re going to the moon so you can fit in the little apartment.

  151. Serious Pillowfight*

    I had written in a couple months ago about a job I interviewed for where I knew two people from Current Job, and then the very final rejection letter I received a few weeks later. I was interviewing because I had learned a male coworker was making more than me for the same job, and because on top of that I was expected to take a pay cut for an internal position I wanted.

    Anyway, I learned recently from one of my friends at the other job that I was the top choice for the position! They never hired anyone. I guess the budget fell through or something.

    That makes the very “final” sounding rejection letter all the more strange. It does make me feel better to know I didn’t mess up while interviewing and that they wanted me. I’m still at Current Job and I try not to think about the pay inequity. Ironically, the guy being paid more than I am wants the internal job that pays less (which he is aware of) because the hours are better.

  152. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

    I’m trying to figure out how to approach my boss about getting a proper raise.
    I’ve been with the company 9yrs now, and am an integral member of the boss’ Go To Team. We don’t have many formal titles, and there’s no real way to be promoted in the usual manner.

    I’ve held on through multiple raise freezes as the business fluctuates, and have gotten a few raises over the years (but only to a tune of $2.50 more per hour from when I was hired). My take-home pay has basically be going down consistently every year and it’s really hard to make ends meet. I ended up selling my house even.

    I know you shouldn’t approach your employer with a comment of “I can’t afford being an employee! I’m making less every year!” And my boss is one of those people who is hugely condescending about people “who care about money”. Basically, we should work from the goodness of our heart more than compensation.

    I can’t figure out what my market rate worth should be since I wear a lot of different hats that don’t correlate directly to other positions. What do?!

    2. Mockingjay*

      Write a version of your resume for each ‘hat’ (job or skill). I think you’ll find you have more options. Then research salaries for each job, commensurate with experience. (The number of years might vary per ‘hat.’) The size and type of companies you compare will also have an effect: Megacorp offers higher salaries and benefits, is hard to get into, but has great career progression once you are there. Medium company has average salary and benefits, but is stable and would be a 10-minute commute. And so on.

      If practicable for you (I don’t know the economics of your area), I encourage job hunting. It sounds like your boss will not pay you a living wage and the company doesn’t seem to be that stable. Good luck!

  153. Renee*

    I started writing this out and it became a novel, so let me try again. This actually IS the short version. Sorry!

    How do you handle it when you’re constantly getting confused as the assistant, not one of the owners?

    Backstory: I have started two businesses with my significant other of 12 years. The first one we closed, but I did the bulk of the work and I alone financed it early on while also holding down a salaried job that was the primary income that supported both of us. The second business was basically born from the first and would not exist if it wasn’t for the first business. BUT with business #2, I took a more behind-the-scenes but still important role, while my partner was basically the public face of the company and interacted with clients. For a bunch of complicated reasons having to do with protecting my day job, we downplayed my involvement and clients didn’t really know I was involved.

    I eventually lost my job (I hated it and suffered there, so it was a GOOD thing.) I devoted myself full time to our business and have transitioned to a MUCH more active role that’s more client-facing. However, no one really “gets” the history or how integral I have been all along. I feel like they think I’m just the girlfriend who promoted myself to the title of co-owner, and that’s not at all accurate. I have put my blood, sweat, and tears into both our businesses, held down a terrible job I hated for years so we could pay the mortgage, and frankly we wouldn’t be here today without me. To our clients though, I’m the “new” person. But this has been the last 12 years of my life.

    We’re in a creative field, and in both businesses I was the lead creative. Yet clients constantly defer to my SO for decisions and basically ignore my suggestions. And just in day-to-day issues, I feel like they don’t take me seriously. I get introduced as the assistant by clients to their colleagues, even if I was just introduced as one of the owners. I’ve had bullying clients call my partner up on his cell phone screaming that his “secretary” is “out of line” and I should be “put in my place” because I explained that the client couldn’t do something that’s illegal.

    Anyway, I’m over it. My former job was an incredibly negative work environment where others took credit for my work, I was passed up for promotion despite being the most qualified candidate with the most seniority, and the person they hired as my supervisor was incredibly sexist and combative. I feel like I’m stuck in this rut of not being taken seriously. Part of it is that I’m an introvert and very awkward meeting new people. I don’t know how to confidently explain I’m actually one of the bosses, without coming off snarky. (It’s hard because that word “assistant” makes my blood boil.) While it’s definitely more men that call me the assistant, I find women doing it too, which just feels traitorous.

    1. AdminX2*

      You need an official title and to be integrated into the “Our History” page of your website. Maybe you are “Director of Client Services” or something.

      Practice in the mirror- introvert does NOT have to equal unable to command a room. You have a Role, use that as your guidestick.

      So long as husband is doing the right thing by shutting those clients down, telling them to go straight back to you, it will wean off in time.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Are you uncomfortable saying “actually, I’m the Lead Creative” when someone calls you an assistant in your presence? And saying “actually, I’m a co-owner and co-founder” when someone calls you new? And is your SO stepping up to correct these people?

      1. Renee*

        We often work on job sites together and he introduces me as his partner & co-owner. Yet at least once a week when more people arrive on site and we are working, the client will still introduce me as the assistant. My SO kind of tunes out background chatter when he’s working and has some hearing loss to begin with. I silently seethe and later he tells me he isn’t even aware of what happened. It’s awkward because I am usually in another room working and I’ll hear our client greet the new arrival with “Hi, _____, the owner of _____ is here, and his assistant is over there.” I feel like I am eavesdropping if I correct them. Also, they will walk to my partner to introduce him properly but just ignore me as “the help”, so again, I feel like a weird eavesdropper if I break into a conversation I am not a part of.

        1. Kerr*

          Ouch. Your clients sound like they have a bad case of ingrained sexism.

          For new job sites and clients, could you and your partner coordinate so that YOU are always the one making the first introductions, leading the initial meetings, etc.? If there are questions, your partner pauses and lets you take the lead? (Apologies for assuming he doesn’t, but these clients may need it drummed into their heads that You Have The Answers.) The one making the introductions is usually assumed to be In Charge, and that’s a hard first impression to shake. Even if your partner sets up the initial phone/email contact with the client, it probably wouldn’t be a horrible protocol breach for you to be the one to “introduce” both of you at your first in-person meeting.

        2. AdminX2*

          That’s gotta stop- he needs to have your back, this is directly impacting his/your business. And yes, you really need to speak up more and go “Actually I’m Director of Clients and co-owner, as Bill said” and whenever Bill is around be sure to raise your voice at his name so he can reaffirm.

    3. Are you reliable?*

      Is it possible that you can get Business Cards made that has your title on them? Maybe you could give some to your partner to pass out while he/she is networking with new and present clients. Your partner during the course of a conversation could be if you can’t get in contact with me here is my co-owner’s Business Card.

    4. Annie Moose*

      When people go to your partner, can you recruit their assistance to push back and go, “actually, Renee’s our lead creative, so you’ll need to take that question to her” or “actually, Renee’s been handling X part of the project and is also doing more public-facing work now as well”? If your partner is very clear about your role, then that could go a long way to making people understand.

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        SRSLY, where is your SO in this? If someone is yelling to them about the “secretary,” then they are in a position to shut that down right quick.

        1. Ender*

          Yeah I feel like this is the key issue here. He is the one with the ongoing relationship with them, he is the one who can solve this with a single sentence, why is he not doing so?

    5. Holly*

      I second a lot of the other comments – what is your title? You should (a) have cards that say Co-Founder/Other Title (b) you should feel extremely comfortable correcting people about your own title and involvement. (“Oh, actually I’m the co-founder and COO.”) Confidence is really important if you’re client facing and the founder of the business! (c) Make sure your partner is backing you up. (“Oh, there’s no reason why my partner Renee can’t handle that. She’ll get back to you on that right away.”)

    6. HannahS*

      Could you ask that your husband introduce you? Like when the client and new arrival walk over to your husband, he can automatically go, “Nice to meet you, NewPerson. Have you met Renee? She’s the Lead Creative and co-founder.” If he does it automatically, then it doesn’t matter that he’s a bit hard of hearing. Also, there’s nothing snarky about saying, “I’m the lead creative, actually.” Or, in a longer meeting, “Actually, I’m the lead creative–Husband and I founded this company together! But it’s only recently that I’ve started working directly with clients.”

      But, I think you need to let go of your old clients not thinking of you as the co-founder and valuing your previous contributions. It sounds unbearably frustrating, but as you’ve said, you and your husband downplayed your contribution for a long time. Your clients don’t “get” your contribution because you didn’t take credit for it. It sucks, and I get that at the time there were legitimate reasons for it, but you can’t really explain it to existing clients without making yourself seem dishonest. I think you have to let that part go. If you correct people in the moment about what your role is, I think you’ll feel a lot better.

      1. valentine*

        he introduces me as his partner & co-owner I’m not sure how y’all mean partner here and sexist clients are going to assume the romantic definition, so I like HannahS’s She’s the Lead Creative and co-founder. Also, near-excessive verbiage around “Renee has been here since the beginning/built this from the ground up” and, for decisions, “Renee will tell us/I don’t know what Renee’s decided/Let’s ask Renee.”

    7. soon 2be former fed*

      I recommend Toastmasters to deal with the awkwardness. And get a name tag printed with your title on on it, and wear it every day. It’s OK to be a bit snarky. Can your husband help with this? Send out a blast email.

  154. Disloyalty my ass*

    A month ago, Toxic CEO laid off our division’s director, who evreryone liked, and said he would be taking over their duties himself.

    In the last three weeks, our entire division has found new jobs and given notice. Toxic CEO has not said one word about driving off an entire division except to bitch passive-aggressively about “people who don’t do their jobs and don’t have any loyalty.” (P-A bitching is one reason we’re all leaving, it’s not the only one.)

    We’re all moving to jobs that pay better and value work-life balance, so screw CEO and screw that job. He’s killing his company and doesn’t care.

    2. Triplestep*

      Three weeks? I am half in awe of all of you and half jealous (since I would love to leave my drama-filled workplace.) How many people are we talking about here?

  155. Galenic Theory*

    Hey, long-time lurker, first time commenter/questioner here – I think I messed up with the last part of an internship, and I’m wondering if there’s any way I can address it in a debriefing meeting this upcoming Wednesday. The internship essentially had two components: a display, and fairly long written report showing the research I conducted (on the same topic of, and the informational backing for the display). The internship was designed to be six weeks, at which point I had a pre-planned vacation and then full-time work at my other job. The research and report went off without a hitch, but because some of the components for the display required my boss to go get them, they weren’t at my workplace by the time the internship ended.

    I emailed my boss the objects I wanted to use, the labels for said objects, and a diagram of the layout I wanted for her review. I also let her know my availability in the upcoming weeks. However, that’s when things seemed to snag: the first thing was that she asked me how I planned to get the labels printed; I thought that was the museum’s purview, but my bad for not thinking to ask. The second thing was that when I tried to nail down a day that I could come in to set up the display – since I would need to take time off work – she never really gave me a date in response to the first couple emails, and on the next one she said she just set the display up in my stead. The problem? It looks horrible, and nothing like the diagram I made. I asked if it would be possible for me to rearrange it, but she just invited me to a meeting with her.

    I learned a lot during the internship, but I’m worried. I was hoping this could be a good reference and a feather in my cap during my post-college job search. But honestly, I don’t really want to be connected with the display (it really does look bad) and from her terseness, I’m afraid my boss is angry at me.

    Can you give me any advice for what I should say during the meeting? At this point I’m doubting she’ll let me move things around in the case. But is there a diplomatic way to see if she was upset with me or my work, or ask her why she didn’t take up my many attempts to go in and do the installation?

    1. AdminX2*

      People are weird but LIKELY she’s nothing more than busy and irked this is dragging on, at most. You said she invited you to a meeting, so take it, thank her for her flexibility and ask to fix it there!

    2. Holly*

      I think this is a situation where as an intern you’re supposed to take responsibility for your work and take charge on it – like I am unsure why for your display your boss would have to collect materials for you? She was probably really annoyed at that! She’s likely really busy and just doesn’t want to think about this anymore. I think you have to go to that meeting prepared with EXACTLY what you need to make sure this is *finished*. Apologize for the lag, and say you’d just like to rearrange the diagram and then it will be all done – does that work for you? If she says no, then you have to just let it go – it would have been better to have everything done before your internship ended so you could retain full control over the final product.

      1. Youth*

        If this is a museum-type thing with items on loan, Galenic Theory may not have had the authority to get the items. It does sound like boss dropped the ball here.

        I’d just apologize profusely that things didn’t work out and ask what you could have done to meet your boss’s expectations and get a different outcome. Likely it’s some weird thing that wasn’t communicated well, but at least you’ll know and won’t have to kick yourself forever,

        1. Holly*

          If there’s something field specific I’m missing then I totally agree, best to apologize and ask for feedback – there seems to have been a miscommunication.

      2. all the candycorn*

        Typically interns don’t have purchasing power or are authorized to otherwise spend the company’s money or resources, I can absolutely see how an intern would assume they’d need to request materials from their boss.

        If the boss did not explain the procurement rules (ex: what they can do onsite, what they have to send for offsite, what is absolutely not allowed, etc.) that’s really on the boss.

    3. valentine*

      They should’ve either given you the materials so you could finish the display during your six weeks or accepted the diagram instead of the display. If the internship was paid, they should be paying you for all this time you’re still working for them. If working past the end of your internship doesn’t violate policy or law, take a copy of your diagram to the meeting and ask to fix it, but prepare for her to say no. If there’s no end time for the meeting, ask. If it’s longer than 15 minutes, say you’d like an agenda so you can prepare.

  156. Coconut pudding tree*

    I’ve recently been invited to a WomenHack recruiting event. The timing sounds okay as I have recently started looking for something new. Have you attended? Was it helpful?

  157. Late Guy is Always Late*

    Ideas for helping a chronically late staff member get here earlier? He’s a good worker, but I need him here within 15 minutes of his shift start in order to be customer ready when the store opens.

    He did better with the old boss who was a strict “on the floor ready to go at 7” type, but he was still late pretty often. I’ve been really clear that I don’t care if he’s 10 minutes late for the rest of our lives but he needs at least 45 minutes of before-open time to get everything done that he needs to, and he gets it, but he’s still half an hour late once every other week.

    I’ve asked him if he needs me to give him a harder time about it, since it seems to be at least partly my laid back attitude that’s making the issue worse. He’s not sure if that would help and I’m not sure either. I was a young worker with ADHD and a lateness problem once, too, so my inclination is to be sympathetic and try to help. Any suggestions?

    1. AdminX2*

      Ask him if he knows of things that can help because you won’t be able to have leniency anymore. You can try and switch shifts, you can ask about phone reminders, but some people are just late and need jobs that don’t need a hard start.
      Then, in two weeks, you start cracking down. It’s really necessary and quite unfair to all the other workers who make it happen.

      1. irene adler*

        Why should he change?
        “I’ve asked him if he needs me to give him a harder time about it, since it seems to be at least partly my laid back attitude that’s making the issue worse.”
        What in your approach leads him to believe you actually want him to change?

        He’s taking the issue as seriously as you are presenting it to him.

        1. fposte*

          And even under the hardass boss he was late more often than he should be. I think he’s always going to be Late Guy.

        2. Late Guy is Always Late*

          I have presently the issue as seriously as I take it. It is not a crisis that he is half an hour late biweekly, it’s just not ideal. I have a hard time working up a lot of indignation over it, but I have spoken to him very clearly about why I need him in when I do. He’s not sure what will help because he’s always been a Late Guy. I’m not sure what will help either so I asked for suggestions.

          I’m not going to fire him over it, or I’d be issuing a series of warnings and progressive discipline. But surely there are other coaching strategies to be had.

          1. Lady Kelvin*

            Honestly there’s not much you can do. You are saying “be on time” but your actions say “I don’t care if you aren’t on time”. Its like when you are training a dog, you have to be consistent in everything. If you don’t want your dog on the couch, it can never be on the couch, it won’t understand that yesterday was ok but today isn’t. Same here. By not punishing him your are teaching him that its ok to be late since there aren’t any repercussions. If you aren’t willing to discipline, then your words have no weight.

            1. Late Guys*

              That sounds like an awful way to think about managing adult people. You can’t explain to a dog why they can only be on the couch on weekends. If my boss dealt with work issues with a punishment and reward mindset I would not work under them.

    3. Triplestep*

      He needs to identify what is making him late, and then take steps to not do those things.

      I know this seems overly simple, but that’s what worked for me. I don’t’ have a particular time that I NEED to be at work, but I know life is better when I get on the road earlier. (The commute isn’t as bad, I find better parking which allows me to get on the road earlier and deal with the lousy commute later.) So I do things to make sure I don’t dawdle in the morning. I could list them, but I’m not this guy – he has his own things making him late, and he just needs to want to be on time badly enough to deal with them. (Barring extenuating circumstances like public transit snags that are out of the ordinary.)

    4. Little Beans*

      It might help to make the consequences of his lateness more explicit. This could be being clear about how it affects the business or, if you’re his boss, it could be telling him what you plan to do next if he doesn’t correct it. Personally, I am NEVER on time for work and it’s because I know there is no reason I need to be.

    5. Midlife Tattoos*

      I’m assuming you’re this guy’s manager? This guy is an adult and is solely responsible for whether he makes it to work on time. 30 minutes late every other week is a lot, and I would be at the point where I’d explain that his job is in jeopardy. By asking him if you need to be harder on him, you’re implying you are somehow responsible for him getting to work on time; you’re not. I do believe in having compassion for people, but barring some mitigating circumstances, he’s gone beyond that.

    6. WellRed*

      I know it’s annoying, but it doesn’t sound like it’s actually causing a problem. The store is still opening on time, things are getting done? If that is all because someone else is picking up his slack, address that.

    7. valentine*

      I don’t understand this: I don’t care if he’s 10 minutes late for the rest of our lives but he needs at least 45 minutes of before-open time. Are you saying he can be late for non-open shifts? Being his time management coach is overstepping. If you’re not willing to fire him and there are no other consequences, you don’t really need him to be on time and that’s what you keep showing him. Are you paying him for the 10-30 minutes he’s not working and/or is pre-open work paid?

  158. Mari*

    Does anyone have any practical advice about hiring deaf or hard of hearing interns? I work at a three-person boutique consulting firm and we could use help with some research, and there is a deaf university very near our office. I imagine it is doable, but no one on staff knows ASL, and we don’t have funds for accommodations for an internship.

    1. fposte*

      I don’t, but the university might well–you could see if they have an internship coordinator and ask if they have guidelines or recommendations.

    2. OtterB*

      What fposte said, check for an internship coordinator or perhaps someone with the career services office at the university. Or if you would be looking for students from a particular major, you could start with that department. There may be funds available through the university or through vocational rehab to support accommodations if needed. Not all deaf or hard of hearing people use ASL or use it exclusively. If you’re mainly communicating one-on-one and not so much participating in meetings, you can do a lot these days just by texting.

    3. There is a Life Outside the Library*

      Just FYI, not everyone who is deaf uses ASL. You should definitely contact the university, though…they may have interpreters or be able to help with other accommodations!

      1. Mari*

        Yup, and I know some of the students have implants and speech. But I’d like to make sure that if we post something we are prepared to be entirely inclusive. And messaging/email would likely be fine for day to day, but wouldn’t really be feasible for interviews. I’m sure there are resources out there, and so was just hoping some AAM readers might have ideas!

  159. Serious Pillowfight*

    I know this is silly, but can I just say that it’s really demoralizing when your boss constantly adds you last to email threads sent to the team? (Surprise, he and the others are all men.) I feel like I’m an afterthought or considered less important. Of course, it’s not something I can ever bring up without looking unhinged. Sigh.

    1. LilySparrow*

      Do you mean they’re sent to everyone else and then sent to you later, or that your name is last on the list?

      Because if it’s the second thing, some email programs I’ve worked with jumble the order. I once went around and around with a boss who wanted the distribution list on his emails to look like the dist list on a printed memo, with certain people at the top. Our email program just.wouldn’t.do.that. I would add the recipients in his preferred order, but they’d show up in people’s inboxes all fruitbasket-turnover, and I never could find the guiding principle for how they fell out (it wasn’t alphabetical, or last-on-top, or any pattern I could discern).

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        It’s Outlook, so I’m pretty sure the names are listed in the order they’re added. I know it’s a stupid thing to be concerned with, but it goes along with a larger pattern of disregard I’ve been feeling here.

        1. Ender*

          Are the other names always in the same order for each type of email or are they all in different order each time? If they’re all in the same order for each type of email then he’s probably just copying and pasting.

        2. dawbs*

          I’m tending to say you’re overthinking something people do on a whim.

          what else is there possible in his order?
          If I was writing one today, I’d be doing it in order of chairs, because I can visualize that.
          And if Jim, Han, and Fred were my go tos, and then we hired Lee, I’d probably do it in the order I’d always done it–jim, han, fred, and lee.
          And if the first time I wrote the list, it went Jim, han, fred, lee, that would be how my lousy sense of object permanence would etch itself into my brain–forever and ever amen.

          I’d say the larger pattern is a problem, this feels like an issue you’re seeing because of the larger pattern.

  160. Mansplainer Woes*

    How can I politely shut down a know-it-all coworker who is a mansplainer? It tends to be when I ask a female coworker to clarify something, like this:
    Me: Fiona, do you mean that the customer had issues with the teapot spout or the handle? (I’m really interested in Fiona’s perspective due to her experience and I learn a lot from her).
    Fiona: Well, it was-
    Mansplainer: She means the spout. The customer complained about how it was too wide and his tea poured out too quickly. I’ve already worked out a solution to this issue and it’s bla bla bla.

    Obviously his interjections are a little bit more long winded and relevant to our industry, but that’s an example. Fiona is an expert in our field and Mansplainer is very new to it. He totally cuts Fiona off and speaks over her in a louder voice. It’s not just Fiona and he has done this with other women in the office.

    So far I’ve tried not looking at him when he interjects and continuing to listen to Fiona, and on a separate occasion,
    I looked flustered and held my hands up and said I couldn’t hear two people at once. Once he stopped speaking I went back to Fiona to ask her to finish speaking.

    I keep hoping Mansplainer will pick up on the fact I visibly bristle when he does this, but he does seem to have some issues picking up on social cues and the “rules” of conversation.

    What’s the best way for me to approach this?

    1. AdminX2*

      Mansplainers picking up on cues? HA! Look him dead in the eye, and sternly say “I was asking Sarah about this issue because I need her input. I don’t know why you felt the need to interject but it needs to stop. I will come to you if I need your input”

      Next offense “I’ve told you to stop before, is there a misunderstanding?”

    2. fposte*

      Use your words. “Hold that thought, Derek; I’m asking Fiona.” (He’s Derek because of Rachel Bloom’s wonderful Lady Boss music video.)

    3. Rey*

      Once you start speaking up/interrupting him/pointing out what he’s doing, hopefully others will realize that they can also speak up (and that they don’t have to tolerate his crap in silence)

    4. neverjaunty*

      His “issues” on picking up on social conversation are this: if he ignores them, he gets to do whatever he pleases.

      Don’t hope and hint. Just be direct. “Fergus, hold that thought until Fiona finishes her answer, would you? Thanks.” *turn back to Fiona*

    5. Mansplainer Woes*

      Thank you all for your responses. You’re all very right that I definitely need to be direct, use my words, and shut this down as it’s happening!

      Thanks for the great suggestions on wording also, as that’s something I struggle with.

  161. DaniCalifornia*

    I have a client who keeps emailing me and calling me by my last name, which is a male first name. I am female. I know my Outlook is set up to show ‘First Name Last Name’ and my signature is my first name. (It’s annoying enough when clients decide to call me Danielle when I’ve never introduced myself that way and everything else says Dani)

    Is it polite to tell him, “Just for clarification, in case you need to reach me by phone, my first name is actually Dani, not *male first name*” ? It’s frustrating that he can’t be bothered to read, but if he does call into the office and ask for *male first name* our receptionist will tell him there’s no one here by that name. Is there a better or more polite way to say what I did above? This happens all the time now that I’m married and have that last name.

    1. AdminX2*

      If it’s in email it may be just how he emails. If you have a lot of David’s in your office, it can become habit to use a last persons name.

      Otherwise, just add a note at the end of an email “Just FYI my name is Sarah Dale, wasn’t sure from your emails if you saw that so wanted to make sure you knew. Have a great weekend!”

    2. fposte*

      I would make a correction once but expect him to fall back into old habits. If he’s likely to call into the office let the receptionist know that if anybody calls for “Alexander” or whatever it’s you.

    3. Little Beans*

      My last name is similar to a first name that is not very common in the US but is specific to a certain community, and people from that community not-infrequently address my emails to that name. I’ve noticed that some email services will list the first name of the sender in Proper Case, and the last name in ALL CAPS, so I’ve attributed it to that – that if this is the first time we’re communicating, the all caps last name is what stands out to them. However, if this is someone you’ve communicated with multiple times and they’re still getting it wrong, I think you have complete standing to point it out and correct him.

    4. Eric*

      Some orgs have weird and restrictive rules for what your display name on your email can be. For example I worked at a place where your name would be displayed like “LASTNAME FirstName” and wouldn’t change it. He could work at one of those places and assume everywhere else is like that. Definitely do tell him what you said!

    5. BRR*

      I’d probably just let it go. It’s super frustrating but some people just don’t pay attention. Maybe you could add your middle initial if you have one so that it’s clear which is your first name and which is your last? Or you could add your pronouns to your email signature which is becoming more common.

    6. Someone Else*

      I think it might land ever so slightly better if you went with “Just for clarification, *male last name* is my last name. In case you need to reach me by phone, my first name is actually Dani. ”
      Especially since this whole thing seems to be happening due to a lack of attentive reading, putting in the “not X” might muddy the message. Emphasize the correct name, rather than ending on the incorrect one.

    7. Anono-me*

      I would treat this situation as a person calling you by your last name rather than as a person thanking your last name is your first name. (Sort of like how on the TV show Bones, Dr. Brennan calls Seeley Booth “Booth” Sealy or Agent Booth.)

      This means you can say “Oh, no need to be so formal and use my last name; Please call me Dani.” This way you correct the person and allow them to save a little face.

  162. Eric*

    I just went off on a recruiter for cold calling me at work.

    I usually have my phone off at work, but my grandma’s in the hospital, so I have left it on in case she wants to call me, or there is any news.

    I got a call before and picked up. Turned out to be a recruiter, so I said “I’m not interested” and hung up. The guy emailed me back, saying (paraphrased, obviously) “Hey Eric—sorry for getting you at a bad time but I’m placing people with a fantastic startup and their CTO is open for interviews next week. Just wanted to feel out interest. Thanks!”

    My reply was “I’m not looking for a new job, and calling me at work makes my colleagues think I’m looking to leave, so I don’t work with recruiters who cold call. Please don’t call me again.”

    (I’m also listed as not open to new opportunities on LinkedIn right now)

    Over the top or no?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I know you’re annoyed, but if he called your cell phone, I don’t think you can fault him for calling you at work. Sure, he called during “normal” work hours, but usually people who don’t want to take personal calls during that time don’t take them. He had no way to know your circumstances. So I think that part was over the top. However, if you don’t want to deal with recruiters who cold call, that’s another thing altogether. You’re allowed to say you’re not interested, absolutely. However, if your number is out in the ether somewhere, these calls will likely come and I don’t think it’s fair to blame a recruiter for reaching out.

      1. Eric*

        So you’re not wrong.

        I am in tech, and the weird state of this industry, where there are more open positions than qualified workers, means that tech recruiting is a weird, ultra-high pressure profession here. I get a call on my work phone (desk phone, so only someone completely clueless would give that out as a contact number for recruiters) from a recruiter every week or two, and there are plenty of recruiters who will respond to a “hey thanks but I’m not interested” email by calling you up to argue. I think that frustration with that has leaked through into my phone attitude with them. I read the “sorry for getting you at a bad time” as “I’m going to ignore you saying that you’re not interested and try to pressure you into going into an interview, because the stereotypical programmer is a meek nerd.”

        1. Someone Else*

          I agree with you that the wording of his email implied he was not accepting of your initial “not interested” and thus think your response was reasonable.

          I also think AvonLady Barksdale’s point about the calling your cell not really being calling you “at work” is a good one. So, his initial call was probably not out of line, but his emailing after you noped out was not great.

          He may have been assuming you felt like you had to say that on the phone since it was during business hours and therefore you didn’t mean it, but in that case, why’d he call during business hours? So lots of things about the email say to me dude needed a very hard no to have a chance of taking the point.

      2. all the candycorn*

        “usually people who don’t want to take personal calls during that time don’t take them.”

        But if you’re waiting for a call from someone who is in the hospital, you don’t have the privilege of screening calls from unknown numbers, especially if they share an area code. I imagine that people who have other caretaking responsibilities are in the same position.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          A recruiter–or anyone else– is not going to know that. Making business phone calls is part of life. I completely understand why Eric took the call, I just don’t think we need to excoriate the recruiter for conducting business.

    2. whistle*

      I think your email response was fine and appropriate. I don’t see it as “going off on” the recruiter – it was a professional response.
      I also agree with AvonLady Barksdale that you cannot fault someone for calling you on your cell phone. They had no way to know it was a bad time for you.

    3. BRR*

      I think it was a little much. I don’t see what he did as being that egregious (other than calling and not sending a message on LinkedIn).

    4. Workerbee*

      This person cold-called you, and you said you weren’t interested.
      Then he reached out AGAIN.
      That makes two unsolicited instances that are wasting your time.

      I think your response was professional and appropriate, regardless of personal circumstances.

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      “Over the top” is strong but I think you could have taken some sting out of what you e-mailed the recruiter. I’d be inclined to take the “sorry for getting you at a bad time” at face value. Dude’s just trying to do his own job.

      He called while you were at work, yes — but when else are they supposed to call? During dinner? On the weekend?

      Going forward, does your phone display caller ID? Maybe learn the exchanges to expect when your grandma or the hospital calls, and let other calls go to voicemail without answering.

      1. Eric*

        I’m put off by any cold calling recruiter, honestly — email me the details and I’ll get back to them. I try to respond to every email I get, just because I know how frustrating it is on either side to be sending messages into the abyss. I was just especially annoyed the other day.

        Not trying to be confrontational, but given the guy’s email said his client is interviewing ASAP, I feel confident in judging the guy for using pressure tactics.

  163. argh*

    Mostly venting.

    I’m so sick of being the stopgap and pick up the slack for for every single colleague who is pregnant or has kids and therefore is out of the office.

    It’s not about the kids! But see, I don’t have kids (right now I have a killer commute, I’d really feel bad for any potential kids) and am the only one on the team who has no kids and none on the way, so my manager and my skip level manager seem to assume that I can just take up everything that falls off someone’s plate. Currently I’m doing my own job and the job of someone who is out on maternity leave and this week another teammate stayed home with her sick baby and who had to pick up her work? Yours truly, that’s who.

    I’m burning out. I’ve told both my manager and her boss that I’m at full capacity and just cannot take on anything more without taking something else off. I’ve been dealing with a medical condition myself for a few months now that leaves me rather exhausted and having to work overtime every day for weeks (salaried and exempt) doesn’t help matters any. We’re absolutely understaffed and there is no budget to hire a new person, but what my manager does is to shuffle all the tedious, time consuming stuff that has a rat’s tail of complications to me because she doesn’t want to deal with it.

    My coworkers with kids are all part time and while they are also salaried and exempt, they stay strictly within their hours and simply say they can’t do it. My managers are ok with that. If I say the same they cite short staffing and the fact that sometimes it’s all hands on deck (it’s been all hands on deck since I started here).

    I’m really really sick of this. This is a company everyone in the field wants to work for (think Google or Apple, though this is not it), but so many systems are so dysfunctional and inefficient that it leaves me tearing my hair out. I’m job searching, but there are limited opportunities in my region where I’m a bit stuck due to family-that-aren’t-kids.

    1. Workerbee*

      I don’t have any ideas to help, but you have my sympathies and grr-on-your-behalf-athies. Best of luck on your job search! May it be fruitful fast.

    2. Grapey*

      “If I say the same they cite short staffing and the fact that sometimes it’s all hands on deck”

      Then you keep saying “Sorry, I just can’t do it. Do you need X or Y done first?” The less info you give, the less they can cajole you into staying.

      I mean, it doesn’t sound like they’re going to fire you over it, being short staffed and all.

        1. Rosemary7391*

          It might be worth doing some overtime, within limits that you can manage? You then look like you’re responding as best you can rather than being pedantic about hours.

          1. argh*

            Oh, I am! I have to track my time due to billing, but I can’t remember when the last time was when I tracked 40 h or less…except when I was acutely sick a few months ago. I theoretically don’t care about the overtime (within reason, I’ve been in jobs where I had to work 80 h and I don’t want back to that), if it’s the exception. But this has been going on since I started and it…simply doesn’t seem to change.

            Anyway. Deep breaths. I will again try to say I can’t do it. That usually doesn’t go well. Thanks guys.

    3. Nita*

      I’m sorry. I don’t know if leaving is an option? If not, it sounds like you need to dig in and refuse to take on more work. What are they going to do, fire you? And maybe put the idea in your boss’s mind that they really need to find the budget for a new hire, or it will get to the point where management has to start turning away new work/turn out less-than-quality product and start losing clients.

      1. argh*

        Leaving without a job lined up is unfortunately no option, job searching in my field can take a while (once it took two years…) and I can’t tide myself over that long.

        There’s a lot of pressure on us and we’re in a hiring freeze, so there won’t be a new hire one way or the other. I have already left a project alone for weeks because there was something coming up all the time (the look on my manager’s face when she asked if I was done and I told her I hadn’t even started was priceless, but she told me it could wait if need be and it needed be), but that’s no long term solution.

        Thanks for the sympathy. I mostly needed to vent. I’m so done with prestigious jobs.

        1. neverjaunty*

          They clearly can’t afford to lose you. It’s time to stop caving. When you say you don’t have time to do X and Y, but then you handle X and Y anyway, you’re telling your managers that they can ignore you. You, just like your co-workers, can set boundaries.

          This will be painful for your bosses, but they aren’t going to change a thing when the only person hurting is you.

          1. valentine*

            Cut back to 40 hours for as long as it takes to regain your health. (Should that happen, if you’re willing to work longer, set a new, sustainable, cutoff time. But ideally you would do 40 or fewer until you get a new, better job.) Send your manager a weekly priority list with ETAs. Every time she dumps something on you, send her an update with the new thing at the top and the pushed-back ETAs.

    4. MuseumChick*

      I understand your frustration. It sounds like this is a “Your work place sucks and isn’t going to change” situation. You could try continuing to push back on this when they try to hand you more stuff but I have a sense this will not change.

    5. WellRed*

      As others have said, practice saying no. They aren’t going to fire you, right?There’s been some threads recently about caring less about the job to deal with this kind of crap. Maybe read the Art of Not Giving a F. And call out sick Monday. And maybe Tuesday as well.

      1. Ender*

        Yeah, clearly boss has no problem with other people saying no. They are guilt-tripping you because it works and you give in. I’m sure the parents have also been guilt tripped plenty in the past, but they stay firm now and refuse to give in, so boss has given up trying to guilt trip them.

        Follow your coworkers lead. When your boss tells you to do something you don’t have time to do say no and stick to it. Alison’s archives have tonnes of advice on this sort of thing – it’s not a flat “no”, it’s more like “I have time to do x or y, which takes priority”. There’s a million scripts in the archives.

        Your coworkers aren’t doing anything wrong here – they are doing the right thing by sticking to the agreed hours. Your boss is in the wrong; don’t blame your coworkers.

  164. Managing Stress for a Big Project*

    I know it’s late in the day for the East Coast, so I hope I am not too late to get a little feedback here.

    I am a remote, part-time employee working for a nonprofit organization. There are four part-time managers and one full-time executive director, plus a mostly-absent board of directors. We have a big, in-person conference happening at the end of October, and the four managers are very concerned about our workload for the week of the event. We tallied up our hours for the week and realized that we will each be expected to work a minimum of 80 hours during the week of the conference, likely many more than that. We hadn’t been aware of the schedule of the conference until this week, as our boss is handling most of the programming herself (small staff, you know). She has already let us know that there is “no money in the budget” to pay us overtime for this event.

    Several years ago, these hours would have been possible for me – I’ve done it before, and I know that many employees are expected to put in even more hours, especially for a big project or event. I can work these kinds of hours if I am able to be at home during my few off-hours and spend some time in isolation to re-charge. But I also know that emotionally/psychologically, I will not be able to handle that kind of workload while across the country, away from home, and in front of so many people. I am deeply concerned about my emotional reaction and my ability to act professionally (meaning, not sobbing constantly due to stress) during this week. We are all deeply concerned about the toll it will take on us. And unfortunately, when it comes to stress and anxiety (or really any significant emotion), I tend to deal with it by crying a lot. It’s quite embarrassing for me and has definitely angered some of my bosses in the past.

    My main concern is how we can communicate to our boss effectively that this is too much. When she is determined to do something, she won’t budge. For instance, my coworker and I tried to convince her not to add a pre-conference, since we are six weeks out from the event and she doesn’t even have presenters confirmed for it, and she would not concede. We are asking her to attend our manager’s meeting next Wednesday to try to discuss how we can try to ease the load. I don’t have high expectations that my boss will agree to any kind of meaningful reduction in hours or reduction in services.

    Does anyone have any advice for how I could properly express how useless I may end up being with a schedule like this? Does anyone have advice for people to tend to turn into tear-soaked messes during stressful times? I’m sorry if my questions are unclear. I think the situation feels more complicated to me than it is. I feel as though it’s too late to make any meaningful change to the schedule, fear that my boss won’t listen to me because she is determined to put the conference on in this way, and fear how I will manage the inevitable tsunami of stress and anxiety that I will feel during this week.

    1. AdminX2*

      Be a group, be consistency, say “We cannot function at this level for this length of time for the trip. We think we can do X, Y, and Z to make things manageable. How does that work?” If the group thing falls apart just be honest “I have some medical issues which are fine for normal workloads but will cause serious problems for this heavy a load for this many days. I will be doing my best, but expect me to take breaks and be in my room to take care of myself.”

      Volunteers? Call in the BOD for manual help? Be sure to have your anxiety meds and coping skills written down, crying is ok but try and schedule cry times for in your room.

      And DO NOT risk your health for this- no job is worth it, as awful a spot as it might put you in.

      1. Workerbee*

        Coming here to say this! (I was typing up a big response and thought I’d better refresh before posting.)

        OP, I am so sorry this has landed on you. I can feel the dread from here, and I would feel the same.

        I’ve also had some success while going after an outcome I want when I reframe it as a choice. Story time:

        Me, first time: “I need a direct report so I can achieve X.”
        Response: “Nope, budget’s already in this year, maybe next year.”
        Me, second time: “It’s next year! I need a direct report so I can achieve X and Y.”
        Response: “We’re in a transition period so it’s a bad time. Maybe next year.”
        A year in which I realize this is all b.s.: *passes*
        Me, third time: “I can achieve X if I have a part-time direct report, OR I can achieve X and Y if I have a full-time direct report.”
        (Where X = I can live with this if it gets picked.)

        I received approval for X immediately, and less than a year after that was given Y. I believe this is because when presented with two options, a lot of people don’t realize they can still say “No”–which they will say quite easily if you just come in with, “Can I have X?”

        So there might be a way you and your colleagues can present your needs to her in terms that allow you all to have less stress. And if the boss will be a full or semi-active participant during the conference and not just rest on her laurels after planning it, you can bake her into the equation.

        This next example is almost catastrophically simplistic and you’ll need to sketch out all the awesome you can accomplish in fewer than 80 hours, but hopefully this will give you an idea:

        “Four of us + you, boss, working this conference 40-45 hours each, will yield 100% client satisfaction because we’ll be able to do X, Y, and Z…OR four of us working this conference 40-45 hours with you, boss, working 20 hours, will yield 75% client satisfaction because we’ll be able to do X and Y.”

        If you already know the boss has no intention of helping during the event, then skip her and dig up detriments that can happen if you’re all forced to do 80+ hours (clients notice you’re dead on your feet, mistakes due to exhaustion are made, nonprofit gets viewed in a bad light), vs merits you will achieve if you do less than 80+ hours (bright-eyed, clients love to see that nonprofit treats its staff so well, revenue revenue revenue).

        Whatever you do, it’s definitely worth saying something to your boss, and I hope you receive something manageable and as stress-free as possible. Rooting for you!

        It does add some work onto you and your colleagues if you go this route, and there is no guarantee.

        1. Workerbee*

          Er, that last line was supposed to appear above the second-to-last line. :) It took me a bit to craft out my Choices presentation.

        2. valentine*

          Workerbee’s breakdown/two options is great. If you know your colleagues may fold, though, be prepared to state/stick to the paid hours you can work while feeling well enough to get through the entire week. Don’t rob Peter to pay Paul. Presumably you are not available outside your part-time hours. Can you use this to push back? If they are only paying you for your regular part-time hours and expecting you to work the remainder unpaid or paying you for 80+ hours but without owed overtime for the last 40+, break out the “We don’t want to get in trouble for not paying hourly/non-exempt workers properly.”

    2. BRR*

      Are you non-exempt? Because if there’s no money for overtime then you can’t work overtime and not be paid.

    3. neverjaunty*

      She has already let us know that there is “no money in the budget” to pay us overtime for this event.

      So the organization’s budget depends on your doing an enormous amount of free labor?

      Your boss’s failure to comply with the law and to be a reasonable human being are not, as the saying goes, an emergency on your part.

      2. WellRed*

        I am still stuck on the idea of four part time managers. What does that even mean? Or say about the nonprofit?

  165. Cat*

    I hope this doesn’t get too lost. I just started grad school & it’s been a bit overwhelming. I also work full time and am going through a slow period at work where I have a lot of downtime. I’m hopeful that I will be busy again soon, but is it a bad idea to try to get school work done while at work? Part of me doesn’t want to get into that routine, because once the downtime goes away I’ll have to rework my personal schedule again to be sure I set aside enough time, which can take some balancing and experimentation (getting back to school after 8 years has been a tough adjustment for me). At least if I don’t allow for work time to get school work done, it won’t have a huge effect on my personal life once it goes away.

    However, right now, I’m scrolling through this thread in between what few projects/tasks I have. I feel guilty, or like I’m not taking advantage of the opportunity to be working on an assignment. Though I am more likely to get interrupted by something that takes priority and having that happen several times a day makes me wonder if all of that concentration-breaking is worth it. Yesterday I missed a call because I had my headphones in working on an assignment and I felt super guilty about that.

    FWIW, my boss knows I have downtime and I don’t think he’d mind me taking that time to do coursework. I guess this is more personal.

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I’d say use whatever time you have to do coursework and don’t have headphones in unless you can rig the phone or other call-device so you are aware of it…like, does it have a blinking light?

      Don’t worry about “getting used to” the time at work, just use whatever time you have. There will be ebbs and flows of both the coursework and your job’s work.

    3. Cat*

      Thanks for your responses. As previously mentioned, my boss would be absolutely fine with me using downtown for coursework (especially since what I’m pursuing is related to the work I do).

      I think my main issue is that I’m super overwhelmed with getting back to school & trying to work in assignments (I’m a horrible procrastinator) and was looking for someone to justify me not doing assignments while at work…”work is strictly for work!! you shouldn’t be doing schoolwork at your full-time job!” Yea…I’m in denial and stressed…perhaps I will come to the non-work related thread this weekend on further advice…

      1. valentine*

        School assignments are work and you’re entitled to breaks because you need them. It’s not possibly for you to do well if you work nonstop. If the phone has a screen/caller ID, put it in your eyeline when you’re using headphones.

  166. Mary*

    I could use some perspective on a current annoyance at work. My colleague and I started here at the same time over 6 years ago. I earned a promotion to be salaried while he is still hourly. Part of being salaried means that I have to work more hours, including evenings and weekends. But a perk is that I don’t have to do all my hours in the office, whereas he is supposed to do exactly 8 hours in the office, 5 days a week, and no more. Someone has to be here until 6:00 pm every day to close, and that’s usually me because I wake up later – most days I’m still in the office at 7 pm.

    But some days my colleague comes in very late, as in 30 minutes past the latest time we’re allowed to start. So he should be here until 6:30 to do his full 8 hours, which would let me take off early on occasion. Since our boss is gone much earlier, my colleague has started leaving at 3 or 4 pm to “beat traffic” and clocking in again at home, making me stay to close the office. I’m starting to feel resentful because I’m the one who earned the perks of the flexible schedule but he’s just taking the perks without the extra work. Any advice on how to handle this?

    1. Holly*

      I mean, it sounds like you have a legitimate concern – not only is he inappropriately working from home when he’s not supposed to, but it’s putting an extra burden on you. I would discuss this with your boss, with a focus on how it’s been a problem for you specifically/impacting your hours and schedule. Keep in mind that he could have gotten permission to do this if he’s working from home when you say he’s not supposed to be allowed to, but perhaps not!

    2. valentine*

      He’s not taking the perks; he’s taking the piss. Work out a formal arrangement where, when he’s late, you leave early. Is there no backup? What if the closer has to leave due to illness/weather, etc?

  167. FD*

    This is such a small thing but it REALLY bothers me and I don’t know how to fix it!

    I generally feel very strongly about having a clean desk. It’s partly an anxiety-related habit–having lots of piles makes me feel overwhelmed and afraid I’ll miss something. But a lot of the time–probably 50% of my job, I end up having paper stacks all. over. my. desk. And they rarely can be dealt with in one day, so I have to leave them there. It’s actually really ramping up my anxiety.

    The papers don’t fall into tidy, predictable categories, so I can’t just make sensible inboxes.

    Anything that’s out needs something done with or to it in the next 7 days so it feels like there’s a constant rotation of paper.

    I’m regularly putting away anything I’m done with, but more just appears.

    Any tips?

    1. fposte*

      Right now it seems like your mental categories are “chaos,” “sorted,” and “completed.” Could you find a category that’s just “corralled”? Like a “to be sorted” tray where things could live together based on what hasn’t been done to them?

    2. Holly*

      Every office is different – mine supplies full filing cabinets. If yours doesn’t, you may want to create your own system and just bring some sort of drawer/organizer or folder system from Target. Also – if you don’t already, I recommend scanning in all paper you receive so you will never “lose” the file even if it has to temporarily be in a pile.

      I’m going through the same thing… a pile has formed on my desk and I have been too busy to take care of it during the work week. I may have to come in after hours (I’m salaried) or on a weekend to sort it out.

    3. LQ*

      Usually when I think things aren’t falling into good categories I try reslicing the pie. If you are trying to do it by project shift, do it by day, do it by waiting for me/waiting for someone else/waiting for time, do it by urgency, do it by things I need to look at first thing tomorrow/everything else, do it by stuff people are going to come talk to me about/stuff I need to process, do it by day of the week/month, do it by floor of the building the people who are the other people in the process are on. Just trying to reslice the pie like that usually helps me get some structure, I often start of really big and work my way down to something manageable (I really like the First Thing Tomorrow Pile and Everything Else Pile when I’m super stressed). I also like folders. A bunch of folders (with a sticky on the front so as to be easy to read and swap) feels way less stressful than a bunch of papers. Even if I would have 20 papers, 20 folders (and usually at least 2-3 pages can go together if nothing else) feels easier. And the big sticky with big marker writing what it is makes it easier to scan through (and more private if you care about that). Folders can also be more easily stacked in something that takes up less space but is still…flippthroughable to make it easy to find things.

      (I have 14 folders currently. The top 5 project folders are color coded, the messy rest of stuff is the plain color.)

    4. Koala dreams*

      I find the desk looks more tidy when I put the piles of paper in binders or folders. If you want to you can name them work in progress something else that is suitable. I always prefer writing on the binder/folder so I know what’s inside, even if it’s just the year or the name of the customer. If it makes more sense for you, you can write the day the papers arrived or the deadline. If the piles of paper arrive in envelopes, you can use the envelopes as folders.
      I feel with you since I’ve been having between 10 and 20 binders on my desk recently. It just doesn’t make sense to put them away every day, since I know I’m going to need to look in them the next day, but I have no idea which one I’ll need so I’ll just keep all of them on the desk.

  168. Anonymosity*

    You know how you get an atmospheric cap and no weather happens? Like it’s just dead air? That’s what things feel like right now, clamped down tight — nothing is moving and my anxiety is so ramped up I’m like an idling high-speed train. I had to lop half a block off my regular walk today because I could just not fricking breathe. And after two days of it, I have a big fat headache. I can’t concentrate on a thing. Everything I put out bounces back and falls to the ground, useless. It’s so weird.

    — Very slow movement on those two writing / editing jobs; then they bounced back as no’s.

    — A job I applied for at my friend’s workplace in CO was pulled. They didn’t hire for it (he got a response from the hiring manager and passed it on to me). This happened right after I applied. “There will be other jobs,” he said. Not for me. I checked. All very technical except for the one outlier; it’s like my old workplace.

    — Everyone else seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.

    Grrrggggggbbbbbbgglllglglglgglg

    1. Formerly Frustrated Optimist*

      Just wanted you to know that I am thinking of you. Since I changed jobs, I do not have as much time to read AAM, especially the Friday open thread, but I always do a search for your username. And every week, I am pulling for you!

      I’m so sorry all your leads have dried up for the moment. I do know the feeling: hopeless, obsessing, etc. During my three-year search, I had at least one 6-month stretch with not so much as a phone interview. Actually, there were several instances of “feast or famine” — where I was trying to juggle multiple interviews.

      So I hope your current famine means that you are overdue for a feast, and that it arrives soon. Please continue to let us know how you’re doing.

      1. Anna Held*

        I just wanted to send internet hugs.

        I agree with all of this. I remember that bad times, and I wish I could send tea and cookies. We need to figure out a way for the happily employed people to send care packages to those who are in need! I’d happily send you one.

  169. Just for now,*

    Very late to the thread but does anyone who does hiring look unfavorably on temp work? I am considering leaving a position at a dysfunctional work place but still need income. I have been looking at temp agencies but I don’t want it to look concerning on my resume that I went from a specific career path to temping.

    1. Morning Glory*

      It depends on what your specific career path is, and how senior you are there.

      Most temp positions are junior level and admin, which won’t look good for many career paths for reasons that have nothing to do with the fact that it was a temp position – but for other career paths, that may fit in just fine.

      1. Just for now,*

        I’m thinking it may matter less because I am in the midst of a career change. I’m returning to school next fall and the idea of doing something less mentally taxing about a field I’ve fallen out of love with seems like a nice break.

    2. Seriously?*

      I’m not in hiring, but I don’t see why it would look worse than being unemployed. You can probably leave it off your resume if you prefer and the gap is short.

      1. Just for now,*

        Thank you! I’ve been trying to weigh how much it matters when you throw going back to school in the mix. I’m moving out of my current field and heading back to school. But I know I’ll need to put my work history on my resume regardless and don’t want to appear flighty.

    3. TheWonderGinger*

      I think it would also depend on how credible/what kind of reputation a particular temp agency is/has.

      1. Just for now,*

        That is a great point. I’ve honestly never worked through a temp agency, do you have any thoughts on how to determine a reputable one?

  170. Violetta*

    I’ve been unemployed for almost two years now and recently got a job interview, the first in a while. It went alright until they described in detail that this position is to work with a charity that deals with vulnerable populations (the initial job post masks the employer name). I’ve also been dealing with mental health stuff for the past couple of years so I’ve been juggling with that too. The thing is, I’m still in recovery mode and I feel like working here might steer me off course. The hiring manger said he doesn’t deal with the people served directly most of the time but you’re surrounded by people struggling with addition and mental health issues. I want the opportunity but at the same time, I don’t know if I can handle the environment. The hiring manager wants an answer by the end of the day and I’m hesitant to accept the offer as they want someone who will stick around. Thoughts?

    1. Book Badger*

      Sometimes organizations that work with vulnerable populations offer more robust resources for mental health because they know that you’re doing a lot of stressful work and can be vicariously traumatized. A friend of mine works at an outpatient facility for mental health and addiction issues and they’re more willing to allow mental health sick days or offer insurance with mental health benefits because otherwise their workers would burn out really quickly. Do you know what benefits you’d be offered in this position? If they offer very good benefits, especially health insurance or sick leave, maybe it would help you handle the work?

  171. Coffee computer*

    I had an employee come to me this week who had spilled coffee on her computer to the extent that it is not functional. They IT person said it looked like it had taken a bath in coffee. I get that things happen. However, this same person approached me 2 months ago and asked for a new computer to replace her not-quite 2 years old one because it was too heavy. I told her no at the time because we don’t replace computers as a rule until they are at least 3 years old and generally up to 4. I feel like I have no choice but to replace her computer now but I’m also highly suspicious of the circumstances given she was campaigning for a new computer. Any suggestions for how I manage this?

    1. Rebecca*

      Do you have any used computers, like someone who has one that should be replaced soon, but not right now? Like, is someone’s computer 2 1/2 or so years old? Give that one to coffee spiller, and give the new computer to that person. You’ll soon suss out if it was an accident or if they did it on purpose.

      Yes, I’m cynical like that.

      1. Seriously?*

        That’s probably what I would do too. Give her an old computer and someone else gets the early update. I would not feel good about rewarding carelessness.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Ugh. I had my EVP approve a new computer for me due to a position change, and IT wouldn’t do it. Less than 2 months after that, my battery bulged and was in danger of exploding, while on a trip, because I am 100% travel right now. I could not use it at a client presentation because I could not turn it on, which was a major inconvenience. Then they replaced the battery and still refused to give me a new laptop because I had 2 months left on warranty. Basically, I am really annoyed with IT thinking they know my business needs better than my EVP, so I kind of side with the coffee spiller, although I do understand why you don’t want to accommodate her. I have had more than one person senior to me tell me my laptop should fall off my desk. . .

      1. LQ*

        Yeah, I’m kind of with you. I had to spend a year and a half fighting to upgrade my computer which was extremely slow because IT denied that I should be using the software I needed (that they had to install) to do my job. My boss, his boss, and his boss all approved the cost. The cost is entirely on our department. They still wanted to fight me and in the end they wouldn’t give me the harddrive space I needed so I ran on 50-11MB of space (and no, I didn’t have anything on there that I could take off except for the profiles of the IT people who had to keep logging in and telling me there was nothing wrong because look, they could clean it up so that there were 50MB of space). My boss suggested throwing my computer out the window. He took it back only because it might hit someone.

        If the coffee spiller is going against their boss and IT I might pause, but I’m kind of fine with fighting dirty with IT when they claim to know my work needs better than my boss and I do.

        1. Coffee Computer*

          To be clear I am her boss and I told her no to the new computer. IT is just telling me they can’t fix it. There was nothing wrong with her computer before the coffee. She wants a new computer because the one she has is “heavy”. She selected the computer she has from a list which included smaller computers. I also have the same computer and I understand her work and needs pretty well.

          1. LQ*

            Oh yeah, if you’re her boss? No. None of that noise then. I like the here’s an old computer. Rewarding bad behavior isn’t great. You could also upgrade yourself and hand-me-down yours to her.

          2. WellRed*

            I really think it’s a coincidence she spilled the coffee. Maybe that’s just because I’d be mortified. If yoi really believe this of her, than I would guess you have other issues with her and this is putting you over the edge. Regardless, she needs a new machine, but that doesn’t mean you have to give her exactly what she wants if there is a more practical option.

  172. Racist comments from coworker*

    The post earlier this week about the racist comment and retaliation was coincidentally timed.

    Yesterday my coworker made a blatantly racist “joke.” I confronted him about it and he briefly doubled down in the moment (of course it wasn’t racist! He’s not racist!) but acknowledged it wasn’t worth arguing his case. We didn’t talk about it later but his demeanor was a bit more chastened than usual. He has terrible impulse control and a history of saying inappropriate things, regarding race and gender both, but it’s usually the “diet racism” that’s pragmatically not worth escalating aside from rolled eyes, a sharp condemnation and possibly sending him an article contextualizing why he was out of line. He’ll frequently (subtly) concede that I’m right and we have a pretty good working relationship outside of that.

    But yesterday was on a different level. I don’t know that I can eye-roll-and-move-forward this time.

    He’s worked here for over a decade, and our boss (who was absolutely within earshot) is the type to wince… and then ignore what just happened. So I doubt this will be proactively addressed by our boss, and I have no authority over him. We’re too small for EEOC to apply.

    I guess other than being angry and frustrated, my question is: what is the best way forward if this isn’t dealt with? Especially in regards to my moral and ethical obligations.

    I’m white so did not feel personally attacked or unsafe. I frequently fantasize about having managerial authority over this employee and holding him accountable in a meaningful way (likely ending in termination.) And the thing is: I might get it sort of soon! Our bosses have made it clear that I’m on track to take over the business altogether if I’m interested in sticking it out long term. But that managerial authority is a couple of years away at the earliest.

    I plan to have an honest discussion with my boss about these comments quickly becoming a retention issue and push for real action. But if that doesn’t happen and doesn’t escalate beyond what’s already happened, I’m torn about the pragmatic realities of actually resigning.

    I’m not confident in my ability to gain employment in an office that actually deals with this stuff in a meaningful way, and this by far the biggest quality-of-life issue in a work environment that otherwise treats its staff very well. I have every reason to believe that I will indeed advance through the ranks if things continue on this track, whereas my coworker’s already at the top of his department and not interested in higher management. At the same time, the idea of my being complicit or tolerating this toxicity makes me feel slightly ill.

    1. LCL*

      Nothing about being white prevents you from telling him, when you hear that crap, ‘don’t say that around me, I don’t care what you think about other people or how you justify it, I don’t want to hear it.’ Then walk away. I will often argue for educating people first, but you have done that and it’s not working. I don’t think you are being complicit at all. Discussing this with your boss is also a good step, tell him since nobody is stopping this guy you will be refusing to listen to it anymore.

    2. Holly*

      You should look at your state and local law – it may be broader than federal law when it comes to discrimination/hostile work environment.

      1. Racist comments from coworker*

        That’s a good point I didn’t consider. I expect our local laws have stricter protections, which will help me put pressure on our bosses to take action. Looking them up now! Thanks!

  173. Extra Anon for This*

    I’m pregnant and my morning sickness has really been affecting my work. My manager had A Talk with me recently because of my quiet and unhappy demeanor in a team meeting. Apparently I was grimacing, which was taken as being non-supportive and very obviously negative. I apologized and said I wasn’t feeling well, but I didn’t mention the pregnancy. Now I see it’s on my performance review. Because of my medical history, I really wanted to wait for some test results I’ll get in about 3 weeks. Moving forward, I’m going to try harder to look happy or at least neutral at work. But I’m wondering if I should just come clean about the pregnancy too, since performance reviews go in my file and affect future raise opportunities. What would you do?

    1. LCL*

      ‘Im having some medical issues right now that are affecting my work and I am getting treatment for them.’ It sounds like your manager is being a jerk, if you told her you were feeling sick and you were nicked for it anyway.

    3. LilySparrow*

      I think you could be more specific and say you were having stomach problems, and it wasn’t about anything in the meeting.

      I understand not wanting to disclose the pregnancy, but you’d think most people would get that you can’t look happy with gut issues going on.

  174. Mimmy*

    “Projects” at work

    This is probably a really lame question, but… I see many people talk about having “projects” at work. My work experience in the last 10 or so years has primarily entailed public-facing roles – information specialist, answering a professional conference hotline, instructor with disabled adults. In my previous life, my work was primarily data entry and clerical.

    I’m starting to burn out on the repetitious nature of these jobs and have been wondering what might a “project” at work look like. I’ve always thought projects were time-limited, which interests me because then it brings more variety into your job. I’d even be open to having the routine day-to-day work PLUS a project or two–that’d really break up the monotony of the routine.

    Thanks for any insights you all may have :)

    1. LQ*

      A project can be anything. In roles where I did a lot of sort of routine work that wasn’t projectey (seeing clients, that kind of thing) I managed to usually squeeze in a project or two that were like. Hey this process could be streamlined. Or when a new update was coming out being a part of training or rolling it out. Or being a part of the feedback and testing for that process.

      Nearly always for me it was a project I initiated or brought up to my boss (or just…did, I don’t always recommend that…) so looking around me for inefficiencies, places where customer service could be improved, where training materials could be enhanced, documentation around processes could be done. Those would be places I’d look. And in bringing stuff to my boss it was always a “I can do this thing” not a “this thing should be done”.

      Depending on your enviroment it might make sense to approach your boss and say, “I’m interested in a little variety so if there are any projects coming up that I could take part in I’d really like the opportunity.” Some places will move you out and back in, some will stack it on top, some will slide some stuff off your plate (take calls for half the day, work on Project for half the day).

  175. ECHM*

    This week leadership at my admin job offered to change me from hourly to salaried, plus give me a pay increase! I have always been “task-oriented” rather than “clock-oriented” and after more than a dozen years in a salaried job, was struggling with being “a salaried mindset in an hourly body.” Between the raise and some freelance writing I’m doing, I’m almost getting paid what I was at my previous job! The environment is so much nicer and I’m just really happy about this.

  176. AnotherAlison*

    I would say that at least once a year I get a “back to school” bug. I have a good job, but I would like to move a little sideways in my field and just don’t have the technical skills and knowledge for it. School has never been in the cards for various family and job commitment reasons, but I have tried to self-educate. I picked up a book I bought a few years ago to try to dig into some relevant subjects on my own. Well, after 3 weeks of carrying it around, I finally opened it. I found the Amazon packing slip used as a bookmark about halfway through the book. I bought it in 2012. I am dying. SIX YEARS. I haven’t been able to work my way through this book in six years. Thank god I haven’t dropped $3,000 on an online grad course.

    1. Overeducated*

      I hear that! I was thinking about whether i should go to law school on my way home today. That is completely insane and a terrible idea, but the temptation is there.

      I find it easier to commit with external requirements though. Maybe the $3000 and peer pressure would’ve done it )

  177. Anon Accountant*

    Late to the open thread but it was a super busy day. Where do you find business casual yet professional clothes for a 35-year-old? My locks options are JC Penney, Macy’s, Loft, NY & CO. We have an Ann Taylor and Banana Republic about 1.5 hour away. Suggestions are appreciated.

    1. TheWonderGinger*

      I am 30, I hit up resale shops like Style Encore heavily for the above mentioned brands. I also really like slacks from Maurices (They come in multiple lengths) and sometimes find good tops there as well.

    2. JessicaTate*

      My usual suspects are pretty much the same as yours. I’ve found Loft and Ann Taylor particularly good for my aesthetic, and I think all of my suits have come from Macys. Also, I recently started using ThredUp for second-hand work clothes from the same labels that I shop in stores. I was wary at first, but now I’m kind of hooked on the discount off of retail, the convenience of the online shopping, and the “green” aspect of second-hand.

    3. Book Badger*

      Amazon can be very hit-or-miss, but if you know your measurements and aren’t too picky about quality, you can find some good deals, especially for basic staples that don’t need to be perfectly tailored (suit blouses, for example).

    5. E*

      Late reply but if you have any good thrift or consignment stores in your area, I’ve had lots of luck at the nearby Goodwill or consignment store. There’s a great mix of styles and sizes, and in the upscale end of town the Goodwill has Ann Taylor and similar brands but the prices are great. $4 for a shirt or pants can’t be beat, in like new condition.

  178. LilySparrow*

    I had to shoot a vloggy-type video segment to upload for a work project. I did a bunch of takes and was really happy with some of the material.

    Then I loaded everything on my desktop to review, and discovered that in one set of takes, I’d hit “record” and “stop” at the wrong times. All the good stuff was missing, and all I had was myself reaching for the camera button.

    **sigh.**

  179. fogharty*

    I’m trying to find a letter from just a few weeks back, where the LW was a manager who liked a clean desk, and even viewed some “how to keep your desk tidy” videos and suggested them to her team, but everyone rebelled and said she had OCD and such.

    Note: Not the letter where the LW was told to clean up workspace including staples and paperclips off the floor. The letter I’m looking for was a few weeks before that one.

    I’ve tried searching the site, but can’t seem to use the correct keywords (although the results I did get led me down some happy AAM rabbit holes.

    Can anyone help?

  180. Anon1*

    Web marketers in the United States: is it unethical to web scrape for names and emails, then add them to a subscriber list?

    2. Someone Else*

      If you don’t have an established business relationship with each potential subscriber, to abide by CAN-SPAM, you need double-opt-in. (They sign up, you send them a thing that says “confirm you signed up”, and they confirm. Only after that second “yes” should they be in your subscriber list.)

    3. KayEss*

      It’s worth noting that even if you’re based in the US (where this is technically legal), if you wind up snagging and sending to users in Canada, Australia, or the EU you could face thousands of dollars in fines under their laws.

      Also it’s highly unethical and I’d definitely suspect that anyone looking to do this is probably violating the US CAN-SPAM act in some way with their other practices.

    4. Ender*

      It’s illegal in a lot of the world and unethical everywhere. Look up the definition of “subscriber”. If they didn’t choose to subscribe, they shouldn’t be on a subscriber list because they are de facto not a subscriber.

  181. 653-CXK*

    A keen observation:

    I just got an email from a job I applied to a couple of weeks ago and they stated they wouldn’t be moving forward with my application. I was looking forward to working there – the people seemed welcoming, and the job itself was a nice change from what I used to do – but in the end, it wasn’t meant to be.

    Am I down on myself on this? Not in the least. It came down to being honest – meaning having to tell people why I no longer worked in my previous company (I was terminated for cause). I would rather be upfront and give them the whole story rather than “fake it ’til you make it,” and despite not being hired there, both myself and the company came off with positive impressions.

  182. Overeducated*

    My week ended in a funny way.

    I work for the government. My normal hours are 8-4:30 M-F. At 4:29 today my phone rang and I picked up, so i stayed a few minutes late, no big deal, happens frequently for various reasons. The woman on the other end was absolutely lovely, but she was perhaps a little over the top grateful that I’d picked up the phone at 4:30 on a Friday. She said something like “I know you government employees aren’t like people say, you work hard and have ethics,” etc. etc. The funny thing was…she works for a state government agency!

    Really lovely, and I am glad I picked up, it was a good end to the week, it was just kind of funny.

    1. Allie*

      Haha I totally get this – people often have this weird idea of gov employees as soulless unproductive paper pushers, but I have worked for gov for 3 years now and the vast majority of people are dedicated, switched on and very effective at what they do! And understand when you need something urgently at 4:29pm – some areas of gov are notorious for getting the Friday afternoon flurry of urgent requests. :)

    2. The Doctor*

      When I get a call one minute before my normal leave time, it’s always a “do you have a minute” information request from the boss or a coworker who knows my office hours AND knows that my commute involves two trains plus a bus. Even if it’s actually only a minute, that minute costs me 20 minutes in missed connections.

  183. Nathaniel*

    One of the people I work for (above me, sort of in a supervisory role, but not my boss or grandboss) has been taking excessively long lunches and coming back often reeking of alcohol and clearly not sober. My entire department has noticed; I haven’t brought it up with anyone above me but I know at least one of my teammates has. I’m really concerned, because I care for this person and I don’t want them to be fired and also I’m just generally worried for their wellbeing. I want to express something to this person but I’m not sure how it would be taken either by them or by my boss and grandboss. I have no idea what to do.

    For additional context: When I was going through a rough patch with my antidepressants several months ago this person knew me well enough to notice that something was very very wrong and spoke to my grandboss about allowing me some time off to deal with the issue–I feel like I can’t just stand by while they fall apart.

    1. Argh!*

      So you want to say something to him, not the bosses? That’s fine. Boss and grandboss already know, so there’s no point saying anything to them.

      See if there’s an Al-Anon group or phone line you can use to get some advice.

  184. Alice Watson*

    How much info should I give in my cover letters regarding a work gap? And how can I explain to potential employers why I’m applying for what might look like a lesser job than I’m qualified for?
    The gap sort of has three sections. First section is simple, I was laid off in mid-November 2016 because my company was purchased by a larger entity and was closing my entire office. I decided it was easiest to wait until after the Holiday’s to job search (not a lot of postings were going up and managers, HR etc were off on PTO so I realized getting interviews that time of year is difficult).
    Second section is also pretty straightforward; after the Holiday’s were over and I had a chance to see what skills employers were looking for currently (I had been in my old job nearly 20 years) I decided brushing up on computer skills and current industry standards and laws was the best thing to I took classes for six months.
    I feel like I can explain this in a cover letter with something simple like: After being laid off in November of 2016 due to company downsizing I took some time to add to my skill set taking classes in Topic A, Topic B and Topic C.
    Now it get’s complicated – The third section which is, by far, the longest but I’ll try to make the story short. April 2017 my Grandmother was diagnosed with cancer. About a month later I finally realized my Mother, who lives with my Grandmother was not able to handle things. There may be some pre-dementia or senility at play but it was obvious she was forgetting which medications should be taken when, some appointments were missed, some instructions from the Doctors misunderstood and a few other things. I felt like I had no choice but to step in and I found ways to make my finances stretch. Grandma passed away this past June, I spent the summer helping Mom (her executor) finalize her estate then convinced Mom to sell the house and moved her in with me.
    This means that my job search is a good 18 months late. My first question is should I address this on my cover letter and would a basic sentence like “After handling some personal family issues during 2017-2018 that are now resolved I am looking forward to new challenges in field a, position b. Is this enough or too much? Is it going to raise flags with potential employers?
    Also, because of my worries with Mom’s mental state I need to pull back on the level of job from what I had before. I don’t think I can be the supervisor of 25+ people or the manager who travels 3-4 days at a time or work until 8pm then face an hour commute. Right now I need to be reasonably near to home in a position with mostly predictable hours and little to no travel. Would it sound silly telling potential employers something like “I have at least 15 working years or more to dedicate to a company but I am looking to slow down my career path a bit at this point? I don’t want to fully lie to them but I’m afraid if I give any details about the reason for the large gap in work history and my Mother’s current mental state I’ll give the impression of someone who might take too much time off, need to leave early for emergencies etc.
    Sorry this is so long but I’ve put in applications for what I’ve thought were very good job fits recently and gotten rejections or no response and I think the above two issues are why. I need any advice I can get on how to mitigate and spin this in a positive way.

    1. Argh!*

      Education + helping a family member are plenty of reason. Don’t say anything about Mom other than “I’d like to continue to be close to my family, so your organization is perfect for me.”

    2. Colette*

      I’d leave reasons for the gap out altogether – Just focus on what interests you about the job. And make it clear that you know (and want) a step back from the high-pressure job you had before.

    3. ronda*

      they will ask about the gap, but as long as you have a confident story they will be fine with it.
      They don’t need a timeline, but mentioning the trainings and the family care are fine, just be fairly short with it.

  185. Book Badger*

    I had my job interview! I think it went really well (though I had to drive 6 hours round trip and get up at 5 AM to do it). I feel really good about this, but I understand that I’m not the only person interviewing (I believe I’m in the top four, for two potential positions) so I know I might not get it. I have apparently a couple of weeks before I find out if I got it or not.

    I’m a little concerned about one interview that I had a whole month ago – there’s been no response at all, good or bad. But it’s not the only interview I’ve had or will have, so it’s not the worst thing if it doesn’t work out. I’m just bummed that they’ve apparently ghosted me after what I thought was a good interview.

  186. Allie*

    I’ve just been told that my team (currently me and my manager) will be getting three new positions – one at my level and two at the level above. I really want to land one of the higher level positions and have been told that my manager and her boss would be supportive of me applying and think I have a good shot at being successful. (My manager did say that she wishes she could give me one of the positions, but we work in the public service, so it’s not something we can do.)

    Does anyone have any tips for how I can maximise my chances at being successful? I know I think I am in a strong position because I’ve basically been carrying our work since it started (including keeping things happening at some critical points where my manager was sick) but it’s now become more than two people can handle. I’ve gotten very good feedback on my recent work as well, but I’m not taking anything for granted here.

    Also, any other tips for applying for a job where the panel chair is the person you work very closely with every day? I am already having a bit of those ‘I don’t want to disappoint my manager by writing a bad application or bumming an interview’ feelings…

      1. Allie*

        Yeah, I have the advantage of knowing the content and background intimately, and having an excellent reputation in my office. But I have the disadvantage of being young and relatively inexperienced – I’ve applied for other jobs recently where the feedback consistently has been ‘you were great and ticked all the boxes, but this person had twenty years of experience on you.’ So I’m wary if thinking it’s a shoo-in.

  187. Walkout*

    The guy who yells and berates people is coming back to town.
    We’ve been on walkout for several reasons, a couple of which involve Yeller. It has been hard. I love the job and the people I work with on a daily basis (Yeller isn’t based in this state).
    I’ve been wanting to leave for a while (turnover has been high) but I waited until this week to submit applications (I know). So I don’t have a job yet, and I don’t want to have to start clicking that box that asks if you’ve ever been fired.
    GrandBoss gave us one last chance to stay on… and I took it… and now I’m worrying about Yeller. As the protest was getting started, I was vocal on the topic of Yeller, and I wouldn’t be surprised if a person like him is vengeful. I’m honestly a little scared at the thought of being around him although he’s never been physically abusive that I know of. (Boss has gotten physically aggressive with a few of the women on our staff, but he didn’t make contact, and it’s quite possible Boss genuinely meant it as fun. I went on a date with a friend one time, and he dunked me unexpectedly and repeatedly while we were swimming, which he thought was super funny and which is one of the reasons Friend didn’t get upgraded to boyfriend.)
    Anyway, I’m both regretting my decision to go back, and also envisioning the great jobs I could get (even the mediocre ones would be fine at this point) if I don’t have to click that box. Thoughts?

    1. Greensleeves*

      Ugh, you just sound so stresses. That’s a terrible position. I don’t have any magic words, but I’d suggest re-reading Alison’s letters to people who’ve been fired. She has some good advice as to how to address it. If you have a plan you’ll feel better, and this is definitely the sort of situation people would understand. I just don’t think having to check that box is the deal breaker you’re worried about (though it won’t help, I know).

      Be grateful you’ve got good instincts, at least, and listen to them. You did the right thing with Friend, you’ve got your spidey senses on alert, you’ll get through this. Hopefully soon you’ll get a great new job!

  188. whycantppltry*

    my coworkers can’t get my pronouns right and I don’t know how to gently correct them. We’re customer facing and the customers rarely get it right but they’re never going to get it right if my coworkers refer to me as ‘she’ TO THE CUSTOMERS. I am not a woman. I tried really hard to be, I tried so hard

    1. Elisha*

      I’m really sorry to hear you’re having this issue! If it were me, I would having a word with some of your co-workers in private to say something like ‘hey, I noticed the other day that you referred to me as she to a customer. I actually prefer x and would really appreciate it if you could refer to me that way, or just use my name.’ And maybe add something like ‘this is really important to me because x,’ but keep it relatively short and to the point. It might take them a while… but hopefully it’s just an ignorance thing rather than a phobic thing.

      Also, I don’t know if this is feasible for you, but do you have a name badge? I saw the other day that an org I work with has started putting pronouns on their name badges under a person’s name, as a rule across the board. That might never happen in your workplace, but maybe you could add something to yours so customers are prompted to use the right ones?

      I don’t know if that helps, but good luck and keep strong!

    2. Grace Less*

      That must feel so frustrating to you, and it is really disrespectful that they aren’t making an effort to be correct. Correcting them in front of customers will be awkward all around, but it might be worth it to you. Otherwise, I think bringing it up in a cheerful “can I do anything to improve your workday? / here’s what you can do for mine!” conversation is the best for the “gentle correction” you requested.

    3. valentine*

      Unless you’ve been tone-policed, focus on the facts, not on their feelings. Them: [Wrong pronoun] You: Actually, it’s [correct pronoun]. If you’re okay hearing your name a lot, tell them the options are the correct pronouns or your name.

  189. Lily*

    I was fired by this toxic job about a month ago and they told me that day that i’m eligible for unemployment. Today, i’m calling unemployment to see the update of my claim and I was told my employer wanted to cancel my unemployment. I guess they weren’t happy with the answers I gave as to why I was fired. I said I was fired due to performance issues (literally word for word from this letter I was given from the company), then was asked if I had tried to improve my work (I did, i had asked for more training and no one helped me and also even my manager has said that i was improving just a few days before i was fired) and now they want to cancel my payments.

    I am beyond pissed, i might have to speak with a rep from their company and a rep from unemployment if they continue to push it. anyone else went through something like this? this job was by far the worst job i’ve ever had.

  190. Millennial*

    I am looking for some advice, I am a millennial who has worked in the corporate world for a while. I am looking to start a new position soon. How long do I need to stay with my next company to avoid looking flight? or does the length of time really matter anymore if each position I take is a step above the last?

    I was at my first corporate job for 3 years, I moved up in the company 3 times and then ran out of upward movement that I was interested in.
    The next company I was at 1.5 years and helped create a brand new department.
    I then moved to a new city and started with another company, I have been here over 1 year but there are no positions available that are upward movement and there will not likely be any for a long time. The which is huge offers very little in ways to expand or projects.

    1. BRR*

      It still counts if you moved upward at a different company. I’d try and stay at this one a little longer and you’ll need to pribabaly stay in the next position for at least three years.

    2. Ahhh!*

      I think this really depends on your field. It’s more common to move in some fields than others – there’s no magic number of years that applies to all fields. That’d be pretty good tenures in my line of work – people just don’t stay in one position that long, since usually a new job is the only way up.

  191. KR*

    In another installment on the “I hate my office so much” . .. . I hate my office so much! Worked from home for two days and felt better, felt like I got so much done, minimal headaches, more relaxed. Went into my office and it’s like I can’t focus at all. I think it’s a combination of the florescent lighting and my coworker who is always on the phone and always has his ringer on (I swear his wife calls him 50x a day). Going to pick up a lamp this weekend at the store so I can not have overhead lights on when I’m alone in the office (which is usually the case.. I’m alone all afternoon and most of the morning).

    1. Yvette*

      Check if the florescent lights are all the same color. Years ago, they replaced the florescent under-cabinet lights in my cube and they were making me crazy, I swore one of them was bluish while the rest were white, but I was thinking it was all in my head. I checked with the maintenance guy doing the installations and he said no, there were two different colors. It made them match and it was much better. Also, sometimes florescent lights have an almost imperceptible flicker, usually because something is wrong with the fixture. That can cause headaches.
      Could you try headphones for quiet or listening to low, soft instrumental music via earbuds to mask your noisy co-worker?

      1. KR*

        He is so loud headphones are no match for him. Thanks for the suggestion on the lights. They’re all the same colors, it’s just too bright. I think you’re definitely right about the flickering.

        1. Yvette*

          Is the ringer on his cell or his desk land-line? If the latter maybe you could lower it when he is not there? If he did not deliberately make it that loud, just left it where it was set, he might not notice or care and leave it that way. Our phones at work have multiple ring tones to pick from, maybe you could get him to switch?

  192. RoadsLady*

    A teacher related question, but anyone in the whole mentoring/coaching field would likely have appreciated comments.

    So, in summary, I moved schools, starting a new grade in a new school, and have been assigned a mentor teacher in the same grade. She’s nice, she’s helpful, I can ask her anything. She works under the direction of the school’s instructional coach.

    Coach seemed initially very nice, knowledgeable, and helpful. I am far from a perfect teacher with much to learn, so I was happy to go to her with plenty of questions, pick her brain, etc. School has been in session 3 weeks. My opinion of her began as she seemed, again, a nice and intelligent woman.

    I walked out of the school today feeling very much the opposite.

    As these three weeks went by, I found my opinion of Coach shifting. My understanding is this is her first year as an instructional coach. My first opinion changes were mild, harmless things: She liked to talk a lot, almost to the point of seemingly just liking to hear herself speak or perhaps sound good. She seemed stuck in the past as far as teaching trends seem to be, at least in my area. Again, entirely harmless things, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with hearing different teaching philosophies.

    Then things got weird.

    Again, teaching philosophies and styles change from person to person and everyone has their thing and their preference. Part of our (there’s a handful of new teachers) mentoring, one which I love, is a chance to observe other classrooms. We watched one that was nice, busy, but the teacher never shut up and was somewhat inconsistent with expectations and consequences. Another teacher we watched had kids rolling all over the place and this teacher was praised by Coach for being so consistent and strict with her behavior expectations. Wash, rinse, repeat, and I get the impression this is a coach who loves and praises showy classrooms that aren’t necessarily stronger in terms of content.

    Another day, completely out of the blue, another teacher whispered to be that, with Coach, take everything she says with a large grain of salt. I have yet to ask more about why this was said and not sure if I dare.

    Now, this really could just be a difference of views and perspectives. I will wrap up this novel, then, by cutting to the chase of why I walked out of school today filling very upset and uncomfortable.

    I happened to walk in on this coach gossiping and ragging on another new teacher’s performance with a teacher who has absolutely no connection to the mentoring/coaching program. I don’t even want to think if and what was said about me.

    Maybe I’m missing something about connections and maybe there was a legitimate reason for Coach to be talking to Random Teacher, but it’s not something I have noticed with the school structure and the whole thing struct me as catty and unprofessional.

    I really don’t feel comfortable with this whole coaching situation anymore. I am suddenly very paranoid about her coming into my classroom and I really don’t know how and if I should approach the principal about this.

    1. Close Bracket*

      I don’t have any constructive comments, but I have lots of sympathy. I’m sorry. I hope it gets better.

    2. Kanade*

      If she’s a gossip, you’ll only fan the flames of her passion by trying to refuse her entry to your classroom. Sadly, it’s pretty common for staff rooms to be cliquey and childish, so I wouldn’t take it as an indicator that Random Teacher is necessarily as bad as she’s making them out to be.

      Most reasonable adults will know to form their own opinions of you based on their interactions, so I would say that the best thing to do is to branch out. Take questions that would normally go to Coach and ask them to another faculty who might know the answer. Not only do you get to know more of your coworkers, it also allows you to represent yourself honestly. Just don’t go totally cold turkey on asking Coach things – she’ll sense that as a snub and may make life annoying for you. Just do your best, be friendly and helpful to everyone, and push back when you need to and you should be ok!

      1. Mrs. Krabappel*

        That is so frustrating. As a teacher, my school has required all teachers to work with less than stellar coaches. I took the critique with a grain of salt, told the coach what she wanted to hear, then worked with other like minded colleagues to improve my craft (including asking other teachers to observe me and offer feedback).

        As far as the gossip— if your school has a union, you could try talking to a union rep about it. Often they can offer specific suggestions or even pull the coach aside and talk to them about their unprofessional gossiping without involving the bosses.

  193. SusanIvanova*

    The Ig Noble Prizes were just announced; one of them is relevant here:

    ECONOMICS PRIZE [CANADA, CHINA, SINGAPORE, USA] — Lindie Hanyu Liang, Douglas Brown, Huiwen Lian, Samuel Hanig, D. Lance Ferris, and Lisa Keeping, for investigating whether it is effective for employees to use Voodoo dolls to retaliate against abusive bosses.

    REFERENCE: “Righting a Wrong: Retaliation on a Voodoo Doll Symbolizing an Abusive Supervisor Restores Justice,” Lindie Hanyu Liang, Douglas J. Brown, Huiwen Lian, Samuel Hanig, D. Lance Ferris, and Lisa M. Keeping, The Leadership Quarterly, February 2018.
    WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: Hanyu Liang, Douglas J. Brown, Huiwen Lian, D. Lance Ferris, and Lisa M. Keeping

    2. Jaid_Diah*

      There was a lady selling cute voodoo dolls at a craft show (Girl dolls, dolls that looked like dentists, pink dolls that represented cancer, etc). I bought one and keep it in a drawer at work. Not that I expected anyone to be affected by it, but I was at a BEC stage with a coworker and banging a soft fuzzy doll against the desk once in a while helped a little bit. The coworker is gone now and the doll is hanging out with the staples.

  194. Jennifer Thneed*

    I just followed some link (on LinkedIn maybe?) to a Robert Half blog posting from the end of August. It was titled “No Response After an Interview? Here’s What to Do If You’ve Been Ghosted”. I was curious. It was terrible-the-worst.

    You know what you can do to prevent being ghosted? Call and email the hiring manager a lot so they remember you. Honest! (Oh, and don’t ghost on them because it’s rude.) It’s actually kind of impressive how many paragraphs they got out of that single idea.

    Link in my username. I was so annoyed that I left a comment, which is in moderation ;)

    2. Triplestep*

      Ask for constructive feedback to help keep the conversation flowing. That way, if you don’t get the job, you may learn more about why.

      Oh that’s adorable.

  195. Wendy Darling*

    My company is reorganizing. We’ve done a LOT of acquisitions (basically my company deals with its competitors borg-style, by consuming them, except we don’t assimilate them very well) and therefore have a lot of redundancies and weird conflicting systems from companies we absorbed but never moved to our systems, and also a lot of offices scattered all over the place.

    So the new CEO has decided we’re going to streamline, which is going to mean office closures and layoffs. That happens. My org is probably safe because we rake in giant piles of money so I’m not very concerned on a personal level. What grinds my gears, though, is that they’ve decided the way to handle this is to try to get everyone EXCITED about what an amazing evolution this will be for the company — they’ve created a “snazzy” name for the reorg, and made it a logo, and have been sending out emails gushing about what an exciting time this is for the company.

    You know, the exciting time where they’re laying off loads of people.

    It’s so tone-deaf it makes me want to job search but I quit my last job after 8 months and I’ve only been here about a year so I want a longer stay on my resume. :/ Also I like my manager. I just think the company is run by buffoons.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        Our CEO and other senior leadership honestly come off like they went to central casting and asked for the most possible generic C-suite. The CEO tries to be hip by wearing jeans with a blazer and using sports metaphors. He pains me.

  196. Week One Down*

    I’m just finishing my first week of work at a new position (in a new organization, in a new city, in a new state, and what the heck a whole new climate, because why not commit completely?). I’ve moved from middle management straight to senior director, because I have a couple of skill sets that NewJob needs. I have gotten a lot of “we’re excited you’re here and expecting great things of you” messages from almost everyone I’ve met.

    Two things:

    This is a new position that was created to be over the current director, who is still here. So far he has been nothing but courteous and professional, but he is also … not excited that he wasn’t even considered for the role, and who was candid about that on my first meeting with him. And my boss warned me that he might be inclined to undermine me. So I’m trying to give him a clean slate, but still be watchful.

    The other is that I haven’t done very much this week (sat in on some meetings, mostly, and tried to get in a fair amount of research), because it’s still my very first week, but I feel very much like I have to Produce Something Worthy to justify them giving me this position. I don’t think this is coming from anyone but myself – probably a parallel to Impostor Syndrome, or maybe not even a parallel – but how do you guys cope with that sort of self-created pressure to perform? Or, alternatively, what are some good ways to make projects for yourself until you’re looped in to other people’s projects and teams?

    1. Triplestep*

      I’d like to see a new director or senior director NOT succumb to the pressure of Producing Something too soon. Spend time learning what would actually be valuable to produce first.

      If they brought you in over a director, there’s probably a fair amount of dysfunction that’s trickled down to the mid level and below. Maybe your time could be spending time figuring out how they spend their time. Once you’re in full swing you’ll probably be too busy, so spend some time with them now. I’ve been an individual contributor in a top heavy department, and I would have appreciated that of a new higher-up.

      1. tab*

        +1
        It’s always annoying when someone new who knows *nothing* about the problems and challenges thinks they have the solutions. It will reflect very well on you if you take time to find out what your team sees as the problems, challenges, opportunities of your group.

        1. Week One Down*

          Thank you both for the perspective check. I promise, I’m doing a lot of meeting and a lot of listening. For example, at least five different people have discussed the fact that until very recently, everyone was working in silos, and communication was almost nonexistent, and that it’s recent enough to still cast a giant shadow over the culture. So I’m already starting with making sure I communicate to my team anything that they’re not copied on, and to gather their thoughts and opinions about any conversations where I’m looped in before I respond.

          But I really appreciate hearing that I don’t have to Do A Thing Immediately to be useful. That relieves a lot of anxiety.

  197. librarian holding a basket of resentments*

    Okay. Enough already. Enough of faculty expecting me to do their job. Enough of admins thinking I have copious free time. They can see my calendar. Enough.

  198. Jaid_Diah*

    My manager and lead have decided to muck with our time reporting.
    We’re Federal and our lunches are unpaid. So an eight hour day would from say, six to two-thirty. The half hour is for the unpaid lunch. If we take off half a day, we would put in four hours and leave at ten instead of ten thirty.
    Other managers have confirmed that this is how it’s supposed to work. But for some reason, the lead is saying for people to leave a half an hour later and the manager is going along with it.
    My boss is in count-down mode, I think. Or he’s got family problems. Or both. I don’t really care, I’m just annoyed that he’s listening to the lead who’s telling him this crap.
    Oh well, one of my co-worker’s gonna hit up the union and the department manager on Monday. Woot.

    1. Nacho*

      That sounds like how it works at my job. You choose the hours you want off when asking for PTO, and if they include your lunch half hour, that’s just half an hour of PTO you’re not spending. You don’t get to leave early just because you skipped lunch.

    2. WG*

      If you’re being paid until 10 a.m. and 10-10:30 is considered your lunch break, I would think you’d leave at 10. The next half-hour is your unpaid break to do what you want to do with the time. Whether that’s sit in a break room to eat, go for a walk, read a book, run an errand, or start your half-day off. If you’re not being paid for the time (assuming you’re hourly non-exempt), then you should not be working.

      1. Jaid_Diah*

        Exactly. If you leave at one, then yeah, you’re going to put down one to two-thirty or 1.5 for the time you’re taking off.
        But if you leave before your lunch then that half hour doesn’t get incorporated in the leave, so six to ten is your work time including the .3(15 minutes mandatory first break) and .3 for the timesheet or 3.4 and ten to two thirty is the four hours for the leave, minus the half hour unpaid lunch break. No one sits for half an hour waiting to leave.

  199. Nancy*

    I would like some feedback. The situation is as follows, the refrigerator at work is kept fully stocked with different types of milk, cream, creamers etc. for coffee and tea. It is stocked by facilities management (this is part of their job) and paid for by the company for everyone to use. I don’t drink coffee or use it for my tea. Would it be out of line for me to occasionally (as in probably less than once a week) to have a small glass of milk to drink or use some of it in cereal?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      If the milk is stocked for everyone to “use” then yes it would be acceptable to use some for drinking or cereal as well as the coffee. As long as it’s roughly comparable to what you’d use for coffee if you drank coffee. But if the milk is replaced as soon as it’s used, that may not even matter. I’m basically saying don’t drink it all if it’s only replaced once a week or something.

    2. Kanade*

      As long as you’re not drinking giant glasses or filling bowls each morning to the point that everyone else can’t use some for their coffee/tea, it should be fine. Just maybe don’t be super obvious about it the first couple of times lol

      1. Nancy*

        Thanks MissDisplaced and Kanade, I don’t know how often it is replaced, it may even be delivered, but there is tons. Picture a fridge like you would have in a house, with the top two shelves full. And I would never use the last of it.

  200. Lynne879*

    I have questions for people that have moved to different states for jobs. I guess I’m curious how it works? Do you just apply to an out of state job & mention in your cover letter that you’re willing to move? Do you move first and then apply for a job? And when you have accepted a position for a job out of state, how much time do you have to pack up and move your things before your new job starts?

    I guess I ask because I’m on the fence about whether or not I want to live in my home state my entire life.

    1. Close Bracket*

      I have moved for every career job I’ve ever held, but mostly they were in state moves. My skills are technical and pretty specialized, so employers are not fazed by out of town applicants. I apply for the job and assume they will figure out that I am willing to move. Sometimes they ask whether anything would hold me back from moving. That means do I have to sell a house, do I have kids in school, that sort of thing. The answer is no for me, but I do know that candidates who do have to sell their house and worry about the school year still get jobs. If you hire a mover, a move can take up to six weeks, even if it’s in the same state. That’s how long it takes for a mover’s schedule to have an opening. My employers have been understanding of this so far.

      It’s sort of field dependent, though. When employers need specialized skills, they are more likely to consider out of town applicants. If you do the kind of thing that has a large labor base in the place you want to move, you will have a harder time finding an employer who will consider you.

    2. Overeducated*

      I have done this, usually they ask in a late stage interview if you are open to moving or anything would hold you back. Time to move depends on the job, field, and distance involved but that’s something to consider when negotiating start date, obviously.

  201. AnonEastCoaster*

    If you think you might be fired in next 2 months or so is it better to just quit first? Have been in a job for 10 months that is not a good fit …

    2. babblemouth*

      Look for jobs intensely, but don’t quit. Make peace with the fact that you won’t be in this job much longer no matter what, and it should help you deal with the day to day stuff.

  202. Suka*

    How do you guys adapt to a new work environment that’s significantly more demanding than your previous position? What are good ways to get organized so it doesn’t overwhelm you? I just started my second job out of college and it’s really intimidating to be in an environment where my coworkers are patting me on the shoulder and telling me shit hits the fan hard in this dept (they’re well-intentioned, but it’s intimidating!) . I want to grow and become stronger, which is why I took this job in the first place. But now I guess the gap between the level I’m used to functioning at and the one that I’ll need to once my training ends is really spooking me…

  203. Junior Dev*

    My boss is really mad at me for something i did in a good-faith attempt to get information i need to do my job. She’s restricting my ability to go to meetings relevant to my job, she’s taking it as a personal attack that I did something I didn’t realize she didn’t want me to (and hasn’t asked why I did it or worked with me at all to find alternative solutions), she’s saying really heated and snarky things, and generally acting like a power tripping jerk. I’m meeting with HR on Monday to try and figure out how to repair the relationship, I’m wondering if anyone has advice on how to show up to work and be pleasant and stay focused when the person you work for has had some sort of weird meltdown and is convinced you’re the spawn of Satan. (I’m working with my therapist and others to figure out what to do to solve this; I specifically want advice on how to cope mentally and emotionally.)

    1. Bumbee Beez*

      There are some excellent short videos on lynda.com (you might be able to unlock them through your public library card or a free trial) about dealing with difficult people. The first question they usually ask in these courses is something like is it possible that you are the difficult person. These helped me. Some personalities just never click. A smart employer who values both employees will find a way to separate you if it affects your productivity. I am an older person and saving face or perceiving that someone has embarrassed me are worse to me than to my younger coworkers. It just was a thing that couldn’t happen in the workplace for a very long time. It’s less like that now. Another thought is that your behavior reminds her of something similar in her past that had terrible consequences for her. A personal attack is a loaded term, and so is power tripping jerk. She is a manager and there is a lot of responsibility that comes with that role. Good luck!

  204. babblemouth*

    Can we talk about the nightmare open plan offices are? I work in one and it’s seriously exhausting. A pamphlet was passed that week to all of use suggesting civility rules so it’s easier on everyone, and it just made me angry. One the of the ideas was to avoid talking to colleagues sitting nearby and instead go to meeting room. This goes blatantly against the main reason we keep hearing for the open plan: easier to exchange with colleagues and more informal.
    The open plan is just a cost saving exercize disguised as a modern office gimmick, and it this point I think I’d take a paycut in exchange for some wall. I don’t even need my private office, I’m happy to share a room with my team of 8 people.
    Aside from the usual tricks (noise cancelling headphones etc), how do you deal with open plans?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Don’t get me started. Open office workplaces suck ass and like NO employee anywhere ever wants them, even though companies try to sell them as a “perk” of some type. NO they are not a perk. They are misery.

  205. Lady Madonna*

    I noticed a coworker had recently posted some photographs of flowers. I complimented them. He responded by telling me that they are sex organs and he’s flaunting the zero tolerance (for porn) policy. At a loss for words, I walked away. I got back to my desk and he had sent me an email to further explain his position. He started it with “sorry to have upset you” which was not the emotion I was feeling. The workplace is pretty toxic to the very few women who still work there. I’ve taken more systemic issues up with management (deaf ears), and it has cost me. I am just so tired of it.

    1. babblemouth*

      Eww!
      Way to be an absolute creep, Coworker! It takes a special kind of obnoxious to take something as innocent as a picture of a flower and turn it into something dirty and offensive.
      He’s giving you a pretty strong indication that he cannot be trusted. Are you considering leaving your job to avoid that environment, or are you looking for ways to mitigate it?

      1. Bumbee Beez*

        Thank you. I am open to both options and actively. It will be hard to match the pay though, and I am living a very comfortable life otherwise. I also have a therapist, which is not something I needed before joining this firm.

    3. Ender*

      I think that’s hilarious! I suspect you may just not get his sense of humour.

      If you have other reasons to think he’s weird and creepy then yeah this could be part of that, but if this is a one-off, then he probably just did it coz it’s genuinely really funny if you have his (and my) sense of humour.

      Also, going to HR and claiming someone is “sexualising the environment” by having flowers on display would make you, not him, come out of it looking like a crazy person.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Sorry, no. That’s a gross thing to do/say At Work. There’s not getting a joke, and there’s not having to say you “get” a joke that isn’t an appropriate work joke because of its content and the context. It’s like joking about a bomb while in the TSA line at an airport. Could be the funniest thing you ever said in your life, but seriously don’t do that.

        If the email he sent further described his attempt to flaunt the porn policy using flower photos, then fortunately the OP has written documentation FROM HIM of how he is sexualizing the environment. Forward to HR with a description of the conversation that preceded the email.

        I’d also suggest that while the pay might be really good, consider whether it’s good enough to either continue tolerating this kind of nonsense without reporting it, or whether it’s good enough to tolerate HR and management inaction after reporting it, in addition to the therapy you didn’t need before. It sucks but job-hunting is probably your best bet.

        1. Ender*

          You actually sound like you think he was genuinely trying to flaunt the porn policy by showing pictures of flowers. Unless This guy has a severe mental disability (which I’m sure OP would have mentioned) he obviously understands that then porn policy isn’t about plant sexual organs. That why it’s a joke.

          A lot of humour involves doing something that is ludicrous. Like, for example, pretending that plant sexual organs are offensive in the workplace.

          At this point I’m wondering if you have an even more subtle and sarcastic sense of humour than me, since you’re taking the joke of plant sexual organs being offensive to such an extreme that you’re suggesting someone go to HR about it. If so, that’s quite funny, but I would warn you not to actually advise people to do such ludicrous things on the internet, since not everyone will understand that it’s a joke.

          If you are actually serious, then wow. That’s terrible advice. Any hr person who gets a complaint about this is going to think OP is crazy.

          As I said in my original post, if this guy has done other things that are creepy and perverted, like if he’s always talking about (human) sexual organs, then yes In that case this could be part of him being creepy. And OP should by all means report that. But reporting someone for having pictures of flowers is crazy, and reporting someone for making the really obvious joke of saying that flower pictures are porn is also crazy.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            I don’t think he was genuinely trying to make a point. I think he was deliberately taking a harmless comment and making it sexual for no reason, to a coworker he clearly doesn’t know well enough to make that kind of know-your-audience joke. If OP had said it was a normal office and this was just a weird thing that happened, I doubt anyone would say go to HR (FTR I would not). From what OP wrote, though, this sounded like just another in a long list of things that contribute to an uncomfortable environment with toxic behavior towards women.

            1. The New Wanderer*

              But to your point that it was a joke and going to HR with this specific incident is an overreaction… It probably is. I assumed that the email he sent wasn’t a real apology but a doubling-down, and that’s not a fair assumption.

              Should just leave it as, sounds like OP should get out.

      2. Close Bracket*

        I think we should assume that Lady Madonna knows her workplace better than we do, and if she says the atmosphere is toxic to women and that this guy’s joke about sex organs is part of it, we should take her at face value. It’s really dismissive of you to make the incident about flowers. Clearly, the problem was the explanation involving sex organs and porn, not the flowers themselves. The words “sex organs” and “porn” are sexual, and denying that makes you as big a part of the problem as her coworker.

        1. Ender*

          How on earth could I be as big a part of lady Madonna’s problem as her coworker? I’ve never met her! That’s a really strange thing to say.

          I already added a qualifier in my post that IF this guy has a history of being creepy, then in that circumstance this could be part of a bigger problem, which could be reported. My post about it just being a sense of humour difference is based purely on the possibility that this is a stand-alone incident.

          Lady Madonna didn’t mention anything in her post about previous creepy behaviour by this specific guy. In fact, the fact that she was chatting to him about his decor in the first place implies that she gets on well with him. If someone creeps me out I wouldn’t be complimenting him on his pictures or having non-work conversations with him. Plus he apologised when he thought he upset her. Which indicates he is at least trying not to upset people.

          I actually know at least 10 people including me who would find that joke hilarious and I can assure you we do not go around sexually harassing people at work.

          1. sometimeswhy*

            And that’s how you’re part of the problem.

            You and your nine-plus buddies are giving him a benefit of doubt he’s already contradicted by going out of his way to make sure she knows he’s flouting a workplace policy aimed at preventing a hostile work environment. He’s relying on that benefit of doubt and is probably pretty sure that the folks around him just like you secretly agree with him. Congratulations, you’ve sided with the guy who wants to to protest a policy that prohibits porn at work!

          2. CaitlinM*

            For most people, conversation about sex organs at work are inappropriate unless you’re in an industry that deals with those things.

            People might find that joke hilarious but that doesn’t mean it should be made in the workplace.

      3. jolene*

        I think he’s “flouting” the policy, right? Not to correct you so much as to make sure you get the term right if you take this further.

  206. Vincent Crane*

    I was working as a scheduling coordinator for a small home improvement company for the past three years. However, in July, I left for what I considered a better opportunity doing similar work for a large national automotive company. Turns out I was wrong; I didn’t feel as if I ever “fit in” with the culture/team and was generally unhappy working there so I made the decision to quit there on August 24. My employment history is relatively stable with only two employers since graduating college (five year and three year lengths, respectively). Should I include this failed stint on my resume? If I don’t, then hiring managers will assume I’ve been out of work for two months now and will want to know why I left my old company out of the blue. However, if I mention the short term job, I’ll have to acknowledge that I made a mistake in accepting the role there and will get probed on why I was only there for one month. Either way, I’m going to have a gap regardless. Which method will help my chances do you think?

    I’d like to be as open and transparent as possible but also do not want to hurt my chances of getting called in for interviews. I also wouldn’t mind going back to my old job if I absolutely have to, but prefer to explore higher-paying positions first.

    Thanks,
    Vincent

    1. babblemouth*

      Just two months is quite short to include in the CV, I would leave it out. You can answer very honestly if the question comes up in interviews, but it won’t add information about your competencies, which is what the CV is mostly about.

  207. teapotcleaner*

    My job is kind of clique and there is a group of people that want to know everything. They will flat out ask or go to the extremes to find the information. I have been good at my job and no one talks about me. So what I’m trying to say is that last year I put my boyfriend in the company but at a whole different location and shift to avoid nepotism conflict, and to keep people out of my personal life. Well last night someone asked me if my boyfriend works at such location. I had no choice then to deny. The person said ok wrong person. I need to work through this and I constantly worry about my coworkers finding out. I think this information is irrelevant to me and my job abilities. Please help me through this.

    1. Close Bracket*

      Can you tell us more about why it’s a problem for them to have information like this? It is irrelevant, but it’s also pretty innocuous. Having a boyfriend and what he does fall well within normal workplace conversation. The way to get through this might be to just give answers to innocuous questions. You don’t have to share every single detail of your relationship, but I think your boundaries might be unusually strict. If your boyfriend is more open than you are, eventually not only will the cat be out of the bag, but your coworker will know you lied. That will make the cliqueishness even worse.

      1. teapotcleaner*

        I know it’s bizarre I’m just really reserved. I do share with everyone that I have a boyfriend. I just don’t talk about where he works. I’m am really concerned about the people that want to know everything in my job and I feel like if this info got around they would talk about it and I just can’t. I must add I feel like I have social anxiety. One time my boyfriend did tell a floater employee and the employee told me. I told the employee to keep the info private in order to support a comfortable workplace. He agreed and things have been going well. My boyfriend was going through unemployment and so was I. Our previous company lost contracts. So that’s when I put him in the company whole different site. If this gets out I will just have to deal with it.

        1. Close Bracket*

          Are you seeing someone about the social anxiety? People knowing where your boyfriend works is objectively a really, really small deal, even if it means they talk about it. If seeing a therapist is not an option for you right now, I recommend buying some CBT workbooks for social anxiety. There is also an interactive self help program available over the web that has been demonstrated to be effective against anxiety. Try it out.

          https://moodgym.com.au/

          1. teapotcleaner*

            Thanks for reccomending the CBT. I will have to look into that. I have been in a toxic workplace before so there are issues stemming around that such as oversharing. I feel insecure about people trying to pry into my private life you know.

        2. teapotcleaner*

          Last week I had an older man employee ask me what my boyfriend works in and what is his name. I didn’t think nothing of it and didn’t answer his questions. I just told him that’s personal and changed the subject. However now this week another older man employee asked me straight out if my boyfriend works at that location. I feel put off by these questions

  208. redbug34*

    I am actively trying to leave my company. I’d had some bad experiences, like under-staffing, mismanagement, and dismissive bosses. Most recently I’ve been pursuing a gender pay gap complaint. The entire process has been dragging out for almost six months now, and every time I broach it to my director/HR/higher ups, my concerns are pushed to the back of the pile. I have a lot of negative things to say about the administration and how management is handling me, and am actively pursuing filing a government complaint.

    Unbeknownst to me, two friends/acquaintances have accepted positions with the company in the last month. We are not especially close, so they don’t know the struggles I am having. Overall I have tried to keep these issues from others in my field, since I am trying to leave and don’t want to be heard bad-mouthing my employer. But how do I warn them – both women around my age (late 20s, early 30s) – of what they might face here? Or do I not say anything? It’s a nonprofit, and the mission is good, but there are some very deep, very upsetting practices I have seen that I want others to be aware of, instead of being blindsided like I was.

    1. Anna Held*

      At most, I’d take them out for coffee and tell them some basics. All of this (except the pay gap) is pretty standard for nonprofits and shouldn’t be a surprise. Keep it brief and factual; try to think of some nice things too; maybe invite a friend who’s happier about the org.

      But really, think about what you hope to accomplish. They’ve already accepted jobs, and don’t know you well enough to ask about your experiences first. They may not listen to you.

  209. All. Is. On.*

    Hello! I’m super late to the thread but I have a question and I hope someone who can offer me some advice wanders down here! I spent the last 6 years working in an office, but I’ve just started a VERY intense job in a completely different field – residential care as a child and youth worker. It’s live-in job, it’s a LOT of responsibility, and I have had less training that I would have liked so far.
    I’m looking for advice on ways to prevent burn out. I’ve already noticed I’m having a hard time falling asleep quickly because my mind won’t stop racing. My supervisor told me most people don’t last more than 2 years in this job, and quite a few don’t last more than 2 months. How can I stop myself from burning out? I want to do the best I can for the children in my care and I want to be a stable presence for them. Thanks in advance!

    1. valentine*

      If it’s live-in year-round, no wonder everyone burns out. I understand needing overnight staff and maybe a backup who naps, but no staff should be living there. Can you do hard start/stop times? Create a bedtime ritual and stick to it. Research insomnia cures and advice for people with sleep disorders. Lowering lights, no-screens, etc.

      1. All. Is. On.*

        It’s not year round thankfully, we do shifts ranging from 2 days to 14 days (and in the case of 14 day shifts, it would mean two weeks on, two weeks off). I’ll definitely try to create a bedtime ritual, that sounds like it could help a lot! Thanks!

    2. Chicago anon*

      To help stop my mind racing at night, I write “evening pages” (like Julia Cameron’s morning pages, but at the other end of the day). Just spill out everything you’re thinking about: stuff to do, things that disturbed you, things you want to think about when you have the right conditions to do so. Do it by hand, on paper, so you’re not exposed to screen light. It’s a good winding-down ritual.

      1. All. Is. On.*

        I like this idea! Thanks for the suggestion! Keeping off my phone for a while before bed is something I’ve been trying to do more of generally, and having this kind of ritual would be a big help with that!

  210. Amethystmoon*

    The company I work for recently was bought out. This weekend, I received a letter stating “as of x date, you are an employee of *former company name* + some long stuff.” However, they appear to have misspelled a word in the name. Do I put the correct spelling on Linked In or the misspelled name? How do I know if the misspelling is official or not? I don’t want to appear ridiculous on Linked In. Should I just continue to list the more common, short version of the company name?

  211. chickaletta*

    How do you decipher ambiguous job titles like “Quality Program Management Associate” or “Consultant Liaison” when the job descriptions aren’t that much better? If I was a doctor or a teacher, it would be easy to figure out what to look for, but when you have a business degree and a background in various administrative tasks that range from bookkeeping to finance to research to data entry bitch, it’s hard to figure out what to apply for because the job titles in the general business field are such crap. Any advice?

  212. Anon new job*

    I recently started a new job and finding lunchtime to be a little awkward. My job has a staff lounge with several round tables. If I’m sitting in there alone and people come in, they will all sit at other tables. If there’s no where else to sit, people will join me, but not introduce themselves. I always have to introduce myself first. A couple of times people have completely ignored me and had conversations with other people at my table that I couldn’t really participate in because it was about stuff related to their department that I knew nothing about. It’s uncomfortable for me to be sitting somewhere and have people act like I’m invisible. Any advice?

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