open thread – September 21-22, 2018

by Alison Green on September 21, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Business Cat*

    Looking for some advice and some context first: I’m currently working remotely for my company that I’ve been with for four years. I only started remote work in July after my family had to move for my husband’s job. Since my husband’s move is only required for a year (but could be extended), they guaranteed me approval to be remote for a year and then “re-evaluate.” My company allows for this type of flexible arrangement, but it depends on the manager/ department on how willing they are and how well they accommodate it. My current department is not very flexible or used to this arrangment, but agreed to it for me as their first case of it because I’m a very strong employee for them and they want to retain me (this was shared with me explicitly).

    In the meantime, my boss that I loved transferred departments a week into the arrangement, leaving me with the boss that caused her to transfer departments…and we are liking our new geographic area and think we might want to stay here over the long term. My new boss has shared that I could advance in the department into leadership if I move back to our original area. Meanwhile, my hours have gotten crazy (think 14 hour days every couple of weeks) and significantly less pleasant as her direct report. In addition, I’m finding remote work to be pretty lonely.

    Which leads me to the advice section. I’m not happy with this arrangement, as you may have guessed, and without the opportunity for long term advancement unless I move back, I’m probably going to tread water anyway. So, I’ve started applying/interviewing for positions that are local to my current area and in a higher ed setting, which I’ve always wanted to return to after a brief stint there as a new graduate. I just had a second interview and am waiting to hear back.

    1) Is it deeply uncool / burning bridges of me to leave after they made special accommodation to retain me? Note that the new roles I’m applying for are in a different industry and geographic location

    2) What are people’s experiences working in higher ed in a staff role? In your opinion is it worth a lateral move and maybe a slight pay decrease from my corporate job? How have you found career advancement to work in this setting? For context, my current role is senior level, individual contributor, and technical. Over the long term, I am hoping to get into people leadership and have gotten feedback that I’m on that path / have the right skills in my current company.

    Thanks for all advice and for anyone reading this saga :)

    1. Doug Judy*

      I can’t comment on #2, but as for #1, no I don’t think you’re burning a bridge if you give proper notice. The situation doesn’t work for you anymore. People leave jobs all the time for that reason. You can always say you appreciate the effort they made to accommodate you but you have found remote work isn’t for you and your committed to remaining in your current location for the long term. Any reasonable person can understand that.

      Good luck!

      1. Business Cat*

        Thanks for the advice! I was thinking similarly, but was looking for some external validation as my current boss is not the most reasonable person all the time, but that just means that there is more reason to leave rather than stay. In addition, even if she isn’t happy, I know for a fact that many other people in my current company would be good references and even have offered out of the blue to let them know if I’m ever looking for a position in their department, so my overall relationship with the company in general shouldn’t be affected at all.

        Doug, I saw below that you are considering remote work. Don’t let my experience scare you. There are definitely perks to the set up, including flexibility and less micromanaging if your work product is good. In my case, the fact that my department is bad at being flexible and I’m the only one who is remote is part of the challenge, combined with moving to a new geographic area to not knowing many people. Good luck to you and thanks for the response!

        1. Doug Judy*

          Oh thanks, I am not worried. The position I am looking at, most, if not all the company works remote, so that helps. Plus I am not adjusting to a new area, I’ve live in this city 15 years and my current neighborhood for 8. There’s many ways I think I can combat the loneliness that can come with remote work.

          1. Business Cat*

            Yes, that sounds very different and very positive! One of my friends just took a remote job in similar circumstances and loves it even though its her first experience with remote work.

    2. NW Mossy*

      Re: #1, there’s a decent chance that it’ll go over better than you might expect. Just as you’re experiencing some “ooh, hey, this isn’t as smooth as I’d hoped it would be,” so is your company. It sounds like they’d prefer not to be supporting the remote arrangement all else being equal (inferred from the “please return if you want to move up” commentary), and your departure would give them the opportunity to hire someone in Old Locale.

    3. WellRed*

      To no. 1, no. I mean, they made a generous accommodation, but it’s not like they built you a whole building and crafted a new title, etc. Plus, the terms changed a bit when you got the new boss. You’re not happy and it’s not unreasonable to make a change after a big move.

      1. Jadelyn*

        And even if they had – unless you’ve got an actual contract stipulating you have to stay for X period of time, you’re still not obligated to dedicate yourself to that employer now and always, even to your own detriment, because they did a nice thing for you once.

        I mean, I wouldn’t suggest scooting out the day after it was done, but after six months or so? I’d consider most debts paid by that point. (Some situations may not be – like the person with the company card debt and whose company worked with them on it? I’d say that person should stay put if at all possible for at least a year or two.)

      2. Seriously?*

        I would probably focus on how the terms changed after you left. If the long hours are a new development, that seems fair to want to leave. Also, the move was initially temporary but now looks permanent so it makes sense to get a new job if you are not going back and already have pressure to return.

        1. Seriously?*

          You said that this arrangement was for a year and then would be reevaluated. If you are really concerned, you could try to find a job that starts near the year mark. I don’t think that is necessary though.

      3. Mephyle*

        The “generous accommodation” seems to have been mostly in adapting their mindset. It’s not as though they invested in a lot of (or any?) physical assets to make the remote arrangement work, is it?

      4. Autumnheart*

        To be fair, Business Cat also made a generous accommodation by continuing to work for them remotely. The business is benefiting from this arrangement by retaining a strong employee.

        I think that both parties are free to evaluate whether this is a sustainable solution, and if it isn’t, then it would be completely reasonable to find a new job in the new location. The business was already planning on potentially replacing Business Cat if the arrangement didn’t work out, so it is entirely within scope for Business Cat to apply the same evaluation.

    4. Elisabeth*

      It sounds like they only extended this special arrangement to you for a concrete year, and beyond that it was re-evaluation. Further, you’re not beholden to a job when a new arrangement is made. It’s entirely feasible that remote working no longer works FOR YOU. Which is a valid reason to look for a new position.

      They kept you because you were a viable asset, but if the job is stagnating and you’re not happy with the accommodation, there’s no reason not to look!

    5. Project Manager*

      I don’t think you’d be burning any bridges. I think you can safely say that your situation has changed, that you’re planning on staying in the area long-term and working remotely isn’t working well with your working style. You could even tell them that you were concerned to hear that you wouldn’t be considered for promotion while working remotely. Any one of those reasons is sufficient and understandable.

    6. Small but Fierce*

      Following as I literally just negotiated a remote work situation due to my husband’s promotion and relocation. First time on my team this has happened. Wish I could help but hopefully others can help us both!

      1. Business Cat*

        Small but Fierce, it hasn’t been all bad, especially because it was much, much nicer to be able to focus on the move without worrying about a job search at the same time. If all it means for me is that I had a chance to transition more easily, it wasn’t a bad arrangement. Good luck! My advice three months in is that there are nice things about being remote and if I had a better boss I think I would be much happier. Also, look for things to get involved in your area. I just joined a community theater production and though its all still new, its been a great way to get to know more people and have an excuse to get out of the house!

        1. Small but Fierce*

          Thank you for the advice! I also love theater so I was planning on doing that, as well as apply to get an online MBA since I finally qualify for tuition reimbursement. I actually received a job offer ahead of the move, but I turned it down due to a variety of reasons. I hope I won’t regret it.

    7. College Career Counselor*

      For #1, I agree with Doug Judy. You’re not burning a bridge at all. The “re-evaluation” after a year goes both ways; you’re just finding that this is a remote arrangement that you find not to be working longer term. People change jobs for all kinds of reasons, and just because they gave you the flexibility here doesn’t mean that you’re obligated to stay with them forever.

      As for #2, I’ve worked most of my career in higher ed staffing, and I really like the work. I’ve been in team, individual contributor (subject matter expert) roles and supervisory roles. There should be opportunities to manage projects and lead teams in what you describe, but I don’t know for the role that you’re considering whether you need certain academic credentials or previous leadership experience to advance. That would be a question to ask your interviewers (what’s the path for advancement to project mgmt./leadership for people in this kind of role?). It’s possible they want to hire you to do widget tech for the rest of time, but I would try to find out if there are legitimate advancement opportunities. They should be able to articulate how/if that process happens.

      You may find that the work environment is differently paced (that may be a positive or negative, depending on what you want), the resources not as readily available, and there will be an adjustment to a different organizational culture as well. YMMV as to whether you like all those changes, so to the extent you can, ask people at that institution and in the department what they like best about the work and what they find the most challenging.
      Good luck!

      1. Business Cat*

        Thanks so much for sharing your advice. That is all very good to know and very helpful! currently slower paced sounds good, but not sure how it will feel as I adjust as I’m used to very fast paced environments.

        In a recent interview, I was encouraged to hear the emphasis on work life balance and that the supervisor hiring had trouble thinking of an example of an occasion her team had to stay late, which sounds much better than my current “frequently has to stay late due to poorly planned last minute projects from my boss who prides herself on long hours and long hours of her staff.” I also got the sense that long term advancement was possible and supported, but might take longer and involve moving departments, which isn’t that different from my current world. I think I would be happy if I had a senior level individual position doing interesting work with pretty similar pay and better balance…all things that seem pretty reasonable for the jobs I’m targeting….now just to see if one turns into an offer! Thanks again!

        1. Smarty Boots*

          I’d talk with the team members about work-life balance also. The supervisor may be giving you the truth from her perspective, but may not be as clued in to what time commitments the team members really do put in. For instance, supervisor isn’t asking people to stay late, but maybe they are frequently taking work home.

        2. anon today*

          Ha, Business Cat – we are in very similar boats. You totally described by current position with this: “frequently has to stay late due to poorly planned last minute projects from my boss who prides herself on long hours and long hours of her staff.” Ugh!

          It drives me crazy and I too am seeking out an academia job for the set hours and generous benefits (especially PTO). There are a few colleges and universities around and I get notices whenever a job jets posted.

          You seem much further along the process than I, and I wish you luck! (And I don’t think you will be burning any bridges, btw)

      2. JessicaTate*

        To #2, “differently paced” was very true in my experience. Shifting from a consulting business environment (fast paced, with lots of tracking and analyzing our hours) to a more academic organization (not higher ed, but very similar in culture), the pace was an adjustment. I would actually describe it as a shift from a culture really focused on efficiency in the use of time (staying on or under budget led to profit) to a culture where efficiency wasn’t even on the radar. Things took as long as they took to wind through the process that was there.

        If you can make that culture shift, the pace-change might be really positive. With an “it is what it is” attitude, the better work-life balance sounds great! I have several friends in staff positions in higher ed and they LOVE it. But after I’d come to really value efficiency, it was hard for me to adjust to a circuitous process to getting things done.

      3. tra la la*

        You may also want to talk, if you can, with anyone else in the department or organization (I work in a division of a university that has multiple departments) who has a background similar to yours. Someone who has always worked in higher ed may have blind spots about work-life balance and other issues that someone who transitioned into higher ed from another sector may be more able to advise you on.

    8. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Regarding #2, I worked on the staff side of higher ed for many years. YMMV but my experience was that you don’t advance very quickly unless you switch departments, and annual salary increases are the standard COL increase of 3%.

      It’s hard to make any changes because people/departments can be very entrenched in their “that’s how we’ve always done it” ways, it’s very bureaucratic, and everything takes way longer than it needs to. These weren’t dealbreakers to me, just something I had to get used to.

      On the flip side, there was a lot more flexibility. I was not expected to work long hours or be constantly available by email, the benefits were incredible, and I had a ton of vacation time.

      1. Business Cat*

        Actually here is a question regarding higher ed – I was taken aback during one part of a recent interview. They ran me through the gamut of a meeting with a huge number of people in the area, one of the managers who would be a part of the larger team, but not my manager, asked about my resume, “it seems like you have held positions for a short amount of time, why should we think you wouldn’t do the same here?” I was pretty taken aback because I’ve been with the same company for the past four years, but in different positions. I answered by explaining that it might not be apparent, but that I’d only switched departments once and the rest of the time had been promotions in the same area. Since I’d always heard advancing at the same company was a positive, I’m second guessing myself that I didn’t do enough to reassure that I’d stick around longer and then further put my foot into by asking the direct manager about advancement and growth opportunities. I reassured that my interest in the role would mean I would first want to stay there for a substantial amount of time and was only thinking about the long term to my direct manager, but maybe not to the person doubting my experience. In your higher ed experience is that something about a culture difference between corporate and higher ed or just something about that manager and maybe not understanding my resume fully? kind of specific, but wondering if jumping departments is frowned on more in your higher ed experience and if I raised a red flag.

        1. Person A*

          Work in higher ed and yes switching departments and jumping around within departments is hella frowned upon. We all do it anyway but it creates a lot of hassles because the hiring process SUCKS. We were notified that one of our staff members was moving to another campus department and she even gave us THREE weeks notice due to when the semester started. It’s been a month since she left and they haven’t even closed her position to start interviewing. We are looking at likely late October at the earliest that someone could start. She left at the end of August. It has a lot to do with government restrictions on HOW we hire (mid-sized public university). So that’s probably why the person was questioning you. Promotions in the same role DO NOT happen here. You MUST move to move up and filling your old position sucks. So yes, someone who has jumped around a lot in the corporate world would stand out as a problem to some managers. (BTW not saying I agree with any of this AT ALL but it is what it is )

          1. Person A*

            Oh! One other thing to add is your life will be dictated by the school calendar. Maybe you have children and it already is but I don’t and a lot of my friends struggle with “why can’t you just request off to join us in Cancun in May?”. “Well that’s finals week and NO pto is approved then because it’s all hands on deck (I work in the library). We could go a week later after the semester is over?” They no longer have to think in school year terms and I do.

          2. Business Cat*

            Thanks so much, this is really good context. I’m hopeful that my response wasn’t a total red flag, and that my accomplishments and track record as a top performer are enough to overcome it. Thinking about it more, they are hiring because someone left after a year so that’s probably why it was on his mind. Good to know what to say differently if this interview doesn’t turn into an offer. Hopefully even saying that some of my positions were promotions in place helped explain that the context was different at my current company than he had assumed at first. Thanks again, really interested in learning these different norms!

            1. Higher Ed Employee*

              I agree with Person A, but I’ve helped hire before and we understand that things work differently outside of our industry. Your experience shouldn’t be a red flag. Chances are they misread your resume, and once you explained that it was within the same company they were probably okay with it.

              The only big red flag I could think of would be if each of those positions were very different in nature, then it would be hard to determine what your actual proficiency is.

              1. Business Cat*

                Thank you for the reassurance and the response below too. It’s very helpful to better understand all this. You might laugh at this, but for me, higher ed is currently the “green grass” I envy, so it’s really beneficial to see that there are cons as well as pros, so I can jump into it with a clear sense of how it would actually be.

                On my positions, what surprised me is that my resume is all the same job family and company but progresses like associate to sr. associate to lead, so it was probably a case where we didn’t understand each other’s world at first and were talking past each other. I think I could make it more obvious on my resume in the future, but hopefully my response clarified it and knowing more about the context really helps make me feel more prepared for the future too. Overall, I think I represented myself well and if someone else is a stronger candidate its outside my control.

                One plus to my corporate to higher ed job search is that appears that I may be benefiting from my time outside the higher ed world in the sense that I know now I probably had more opportunity to advance and am now at a senior enough level that getting hired at the same level in higher ed with great benefits and work life balance would be a pretty cushy gig if I can get it! thank again!

        2. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Part of it could be that it’s not clear on your resume that they were promotions within the same team and that your goal is to stick around, but still grow professionally. And part of it could just be that one particular interviewer.

          I am sure this is all department (and institution) dependent, but most departments will want you there for many years. “Moving up” isn’t the same in higher ed as it is in corporate. It took me 2+ years to get a promotion in one of my departments, but it was only a title change – my actual role did not expand at all. In another department, people waited 4+ years for a title change.

          It might be easier to think of each individual department as its own company, rather than the institution itself as the company. What I mean by that is, if I interview in Career Services, the interviewer is going to want me to stay in Career Services for 4 years. Once I leave Career Services for Academic Advising, it’s almost as if I left the company altogether.

          1. Business Cat*

            Thank you for the information! That is really helpful! If it was enough of a red flag for that interview process, I already know much better what to say next time. I think in the moment, I was just very surprised, because I never thought my job history even slightly resembled a job hopper (grad school, contract position, contract position to full time position, then parking with a company of my full time position for four years but advancing to higher titles). I think there are things I can do to make it more clear if I need to in the future.

        3. Dr. Anonymous*

          People in academia are often very opinionated and they don’t all know how to interview. If this is not the direct manager or the chair of the search committee, don’t worry about it.

      2. Anna*

        Yes to all this. Excellent benefits and perks, especially at large universities, but the pay raises are minuscule and advancement is hard. There are also a lot of difficult personalities, especially if you are working with tenured faculty. In large institutions, there can also be a huge amount of tangled beaurocracy that sometimes conflicts with itself.

        But great benefits! And also it is usually a pretty secure job.

    10. Tragic The Gathering*

      RE number 2:

      Depending on what field in Higher Ed….I’ve always found it difficult to move up, little to no room for advancement, and a very much “move out to move up” attitude, especially if you’re starting more mid/lower level. Because higher ed jobs can tend to be for life, oftentimes you’re trapped until someone retires. There’s very littler firing going on for poor performance, and people can really get entrenched in their roles.

      From a passion-project point of view, I couldn’t do anything else, but it is a frustrating place to be career-wise. The benefits can outweigh it though – meaning the literal benefits of working for a university (typically good health/retirement/etc. lots of vacation/sick time) but also that for all the reasons that poor performers get stuck in roles, you also know your role is relatively safe most of the time.

      Just my experience, happy to chat more if you’d like!

      1. A Beth*

        This is a much more positive version of the comment I spent several minutes writing and rewriting then deleting because it made me so frustrated to think about my career in higher ed.

      2. Business Cat*

        Repeating a question to get better understanding about the higher ed culture based on an interview:

        Actually here is a question regarding higher ed – I was taken aback during one part of a recent interview. They ran me through the gamut of a meeting with a huge number of people in the area, one of the managers who would be a part of the larger team, but not my manager, asked about my resume, “it seems like you have held positions for a short amount of time, why should we think you wouldn’t do the same here?” I was pretty taken aback because I’ve been with the same company for the past four years, but in different positions. I answered by explaining that it might not be apparent, but that I’d only switched departments once and the rest of the time had been promotions in the same area. Since I’d always heard advancing at the same company was a positive, I’m second guessing myself that I didn’t do enough to reassure that I’d stick around longer and then further put my foot into by asking the direct manager about advancement and growth opportunities. I reassured that my interest in the role would mean I would first want to stay there for a substantial amount of time and was only thinking about the long term to my direct manager, but maybe not to the person doubting my experience.

        In your higher ed experience is switching departments/getting promoted something about a culture difference between corporate and higher ed or just something about that manager and maybe not understanding my resume fully? kind of specific, but wondering if jumping departments is frowned on more in your higher ed experience and if I raised a red flag.

        1. Rainy*

          It sounds to me like your interviewer didn’t understand what was happening in your resume, but it’s also the case that some departments are significantly less open to people moving around within them than are others. I work in higher ed on the student affairs side and I’ve held three wildly different roles within my department in my 3 years here. One (the most recent) was a lateral move into a role created for me on a different team because my office wanted to keep me and I didn’t want to leave when the grant that I was heading up was transferred to a different department for administration.

        2. Tragic The Gathering*

          Not knowing the manager specifically my guess is that they just didn’t understand the culture. It’s an odd comment to make also because one of the benefits for me of working in Higher Ed is that while yes some people get trapped for life (tenure, administrators, etc.) below those levels they’ve been really understanding with my lifestyle, which requires moving every couple of years for my husband’s job. It’s sort of the flip side of that “move out to move up” coin – since they already expect you’ll leave the institution/office if there’s a better position elsewhere, they don’t mind if you have to leave for other reasons.

          In fact in my last position, I was one of a large handful of “trailing spouses” as we were called – those of us who are sorta stuck there by nature of our spouse’s job. It was an open discussion whenever one of those spouses had opportunities come up. For some it was tenure track positions at other universities, in my specific case my husband is a college football coach.

          I hope that makes sense.

      3. blink14*

        Agree with your comment, Tragic The Gathering. Someone recently got let go in my division who should’ve been fired 3-4 years ago, and it’s finally happening, but there’s no plan in place to replace the person. It is very difficult to move up into higher positions, especially if you are starting fairly low on the scale. I’m at a major university, and mostly you see people jumping between colleges to gain promotions.

    11. it_guy*

      “My new boss has shared that I could advance in the department into leadership if I move”….

      That’s not guaranteed. That’s not “You Will”.

      It’s a definite, promise of a maybe, smothered in possibly.

      My advice: Keep looking.

      1. Business Cat*

        Thanks, I agree with that completely! Its a very shifting environment at the moment and that’s the type of thing that’s easy to say and almost possible to guarantee unless its an actual offer. I think I’m also getting to the point where even if it was on offer but on current terms (move back and stay in not great environment) it wouldn’t be worth it. At the level I’m at now, my salary is already very comfortable and I’m starting to look for benefits outside of position and salary, well trying to balance that with wanting long term growth.

    12. Pam*

      I agree with College Career Counselor. Higher ed staff work can be great. (I certainly love my job!) I work for a state university- stability is excellent, benefits are great, there’s an actual pension, but pay may not be as good, and raises are hard to get.

      I’m an academic advisor- the best part of my job is watching the students grow and succeed.

    13. Zillah*

      I agree that you’re not burning any bridges. They didn’t just let you work remotely as a favor – they want to retain you because you do a good job. I don’t see this as any different as leaving in general.

    14. Lucille2*

      I manage a team of remote and in-office employees. While remote work is part of our culture and the norm, you may need to take some of this with a grain of salt. However, you may find it helpful.

      #1 – Based on what you’ve said, I don’t believe moving on is a bridge burning move. Your working from home is conditional: one-year and they evaluate if it’s working before allowing it to continue. This means they have an out if they feel it’s not ideal. And your leaving may be all they need to know to determine telecommuting doesn’t work for your company. Also, I advise you to take cues from others who have resigned. Who seems to have preserved their reputation well, and who had the door hit them on the way out and why. I was surprised that after resigning from my last job I experience some resentment among a few of my coworkers. I felt blindsided by it, but that’s a story for another post.

      Also, I would like to offer some advice for making the best of your current situation in case you’re stuck in your position for longer than you’d like. Building/retaining relationships remotely is very different than in office. You really need to put yourself out there more often. Schedule meetings, offer to do websharing and video chats with colleagues. Be more vocal in meetings so you’re not easily forgotten. You may find you’re more productive than you were in office. As for the loneliness? That’s common. You can combat that by adjusting your daily routines. It helps to have a morning routine similar to heading into an office. Get up, work out, shower, be presentable. Take a lunch break by going for a walk outside or meeting with a friend or your spouse. Since you’re new to your city, I recommend finding something that gets you out and meeting people, like an evening class or join a meetup.

      Best of luck to you!

    15. Mosby*

      A previous company I worked for had a similar policy, where people could arrange to work remotely full-time if they needed to relocate to another city. In all instances that I can think of except for one, the employee ended up leaving my company for a position at a local company less than a year after their move. It was almost expected, and if you give proper notice and good transition documents there should be no reason for any bridge to be burned (provided that, as people mentioned above, no contract was signed indicating you need to stay a certain amount of time). The bottom line is that remote work isn’t for everyone, and it’s especially hard when the majority of people you work with aren’t remote and work in the same office.

    16. Higher Ed Employee*

      I work in higher ed administration, and my experience is very similar to other commentators here.

      The benefits are a HUGE plus, and ultimately the reason why I’ve chosen to stay in the industry. Most schools offer a tuition benefit where you can take classes either for free or at a steep discount (I’m almost finished with my Master’s degree and I have zero debt from it). There are also excellent affordable healthcare plans, free/discounted access to the university’s amenities (health clinic, gym, dining halls, ect.) and extremely generous PTO that your boss wont fault you for using.

      Another plus is the work/life balance. Universities run on an 8-5 schedule, and once 5:00 hits you’re not expected to stay a minute later. I like to joke that when I’m outside of work I feel like I’m unemployed, because I’m not expected to answer emails or even think about work during the evenings, weekends, and on vacations.

      There are a few major downsides, however. The biggest is that you will never be paid as much as you are in the private sector. Don’t expect to start low and work your way up because merit-based pay increases are not a thing here. Opportunities for promotions are few and far between due to how small the departments (and their budgets) are, and because universities tend to have many lifelong employees. In order to get a pay raise, you generally have to find a position at another university. If you live in an area where there are a lot of schools then that could be okay, otherwise you’re kind of stuck.

      So it just depends on where your values lie. For me, I like the benefits and don’t mind the pay or lack of upward mobility for now. However, I’m still young in my career, and I may choose to leave once I complete my master’s degree and my earning potential in the private sector significantly increases.

      1. Res Admin*

        Having worked in academia for over 25 yrs., Higher Ed Employee is pretty spot on. Although I will quibble that some higher level positions, much like their private sector equivalent, do lend themselves to more after-hours work. Not as much, but it does happen.

        Additional things to consider that can make a huge difference:

        Where you start matters. Smaller units tend to have less funding and less upward mobility. On the other hand, they don’t expect anyone to stick around for long. Larger units have much more flexibility in promoting from within due to greater need and more funding. Ideally, central offices, while potentially stressful (relatively speaking) will have the greatest opportunities.

        Likewise, the size of the college/university matters. Mine (large public university) currently has a huge initiative on to increase their status among public universities. That means more funding and more potential for growth because they are bringing in more faculty that need support. It also means that targeted departments have a much larger budget for staff salaries. Things to look for is how much they bring in from research dollars, do they have new projects starting up, how long have the money makers been there?

        Significant pay raises usually require moving to a new position, either in the same unit or another unit. I’ve applied for and accepted demotions and gotten a 25% bump up in pay. I’ve seen people take promotions for a pay decrease. Those things tie back to which unit you work in…and is something you should be able to research about the specific jobs you are interviewing for.

        Also, some titles sound really great–and pay embarrassingly little. In other words, don’t be afraid to branch out in your job search. You may be surprised.

      2. Blue*

        I second a lot of this and many of the points – both positive and negative – other higher ed admin people have mentioned. I’d also caution you that a lot of people in academia have little-to-no experience working outside of higher ed. So things that may seem like pretty standard business norms (a reasonable response time on an email, for example, or recognizing that it’s not weird to be promoted multiple times within one department, as you mention elsewhere!) are sometimes absent. I’ve spent most of my career in higher ed and still find it frustrating, so I imagine it’d require some adjustment coming from the corporate world. On the plus side, I left work at 4:30 today and won’t think about it again until Monday. :)

        Good luck with your search – it sounds like it at least makes sense to explore your options!

    17. Emily K*

      #1, agree with everyone else. Look at it this way – did your company make an guarantee that you wouldn’t be laid off during that time if the business need arose? If they are free to lay you off, you are free to resign. Yes, they did make a modest effort to retain you, but it’s not one that has really cost them anything that they’ll be out if you resign–if you resign, they’re just back in the same position they would have been in if they hadn’t approved your remote plan originally. It’s not like they paid you a massive bonus or were all set to hire someone else but then turned them down to let you do the work remotely. They’ve lost nothing if you’ve decided that it’s not working out.

    18. Frankie*

      For #2, it really depends on the job line and the department. Raises will not be huge so you’ll stay around the same wage level for quite some time unless you can get a promotion. Promotions will move pretty slowly. Do you have advanced degrees? More and more staff need a masters or higher to advance, sometimes a PhD.
      But typically there’s good benefits and a lot of leave time (not close to what faculty have, but generous compared to corporate). Someone else mentioned you get to leave work at work at 5, but that has not been my experience in most professional higher ed jobs. Lots of people are taking their laptops home and you may be expected to as well.
      The reasons I like higher ed are the mission and the smart people and cool projects I get to be around. The faculty/staff divide can be really frustrating, though. And faculty have a lot of autonomy, far more than a typical middle manager at a random company, so getting work done with them is often about incentivizing them rather than trusting the company hierarchy to apply some leverage.
      It’s a really interesting mixed bag. I’d honestly do some informational interviews in the area you’re interested in working in, and get a sense of some specific experiences. It can really vary from area to area and from institution to institution as well.

      1. Business Cat*

        Thanks for the advice! I have my masters, so hopefully that helps. I’m also planning on some informational interviews with people connected to my alma maters, so I hope that I can get a good sense before I jump in. The aspects that are most appealing to me are the mission, smart people, and cool projects, similar to what you described, hopefully coupled with better work life balance than I have at the moment. Now I’m trying to figure out if the specific institution / roles I’m interested in provide more pros than cons, but some of that is hard to figure out exactly from the outside. Thank you for your response, it provided a helpful and balanced perspective.

        1. Teapot Archivist*

          The aspects of my job that are excellent are the ones you’ve picked up on here – smart people, cool projects, and the mission. I love working with students. It’s not a 9-5 for me, but better than that, it’s a case of working flexible hours on a 37.5 hour week. As I don’t have children, that suits me wonderfully. Every day I sit with leading researchers and chat about everything from the real world implications of politics, to sharing recipes.
          The downside is that the pay is very low. This doesn’t matter to me, as I have an income stream that means I don’t need to work. However, I do have concerns for other staff members who are on low pay in a high CoL city.
          There are also very tricky personalities – I do a lot of work smoothing situations with potentially difficult people. You might have less exposure to these people…

    19. Name Required*

      Chiming in to reinforce what everyone else is saying!

      If a bridge is burned in this case, your company is being unreasonable. This simply isn’t working for you, and the circumstances of your job have changed.

      On working in higher ed … I just started a new job after working as staff for an admissions dept. for a little less than a year. I would never, never return to higher ed. Coming from a start-up/project management background, the glacial pace of movement was maddening. The petty politics were exhausting. The resistance towards firing incompetent staff was demoralizing. The pay was low with no advancement opportunities in department (my associate director and director has been in their roles for 7 years, with no plans to move for the rest of their career), and while the benefits were better than those at a small company, they aren’t any better than benefits at a large, corporate company (which is what I moved into). The technology was years behind.

      Look at the leadership team you’ll be under — is the dean someone who spent most of their time in academia doing research and teaching, and how much experience do they have making complicated business decisions in the “real world?” (Because you might find yourself in a position like mine: supporting new programs with no market research and no implementation plan just because other colleges have them, so it must serve a market need!)

      :-) I swear I’m not bitter!

      You said that higher ed is like the “greener grass” for you right now … is it just because you’re working 14 hour days now, or because you are invested in helping students? You can not work 14 hour days and also not work in higher ed. The folks I’ve met in higher ed (I live in a college town, so I know quite a few) who love their jobs either have a passion for education/students OR are more invested in their life outside of work (and prefer low-stress, l0w-stakes work even if it comes with lower pay).

      1. Business Cat*

        For me, its both. I’m interested in better work life balance, which is something I know I can get in most industries if I choose the right setting, but why higher ed in particular is that I’m interested in supporting the education mission and helping students. I have my Masters and was originally planning on PhD until I realized I could use my skills for a job right then for roles that would be intellectually challenging and actually pay now, rather than being on a stipend for the next five years. I applied for roles in a university setting at that point, but got hired first at my current company and was happy to stay there until now that I’ve moved and don’t like my current environment, it’s sparking the fire under me again. I think the long term advancement opportunities might be challenging for me, but that if I get hired at a similar level to my current (and by level I mean position level, not pay), pay would be pretty similar but maybe something like 4% less which actually might be made up in retirement benefits as my current ones are not good at all. I have an in demand job skill set that even universities are paying more to recruit (analytics developer) for context

        1. Frankie*

          Mmmm, that’s a good area to be in in higher ed right now, and you’d probably be more sheltered from the “we work 24/7 for the students!” mentality.

        2. Res Admin*

          Analytics Developer would be highly prized in my current unit. The people we have on staff for that are very well taken care of because it is essential to my the research efforts of my primary faculty. I would definitely recommend checking out the research efforts of faculty associated with particular positions you may be interested in.

          This is also a constant need for the university as a whole…and those positions tend to pay well (although they also have a reputation of being more challenging to work for).

    20. Pam*

      A way to sell it to them might be ‘Things have changed, and I won’t be returning in a year. This allows you to fill the position with someone who can be in the office as needed.’

    21. Someone Else*

      I do not think this is deeply uncool specifically because:
      1) right after the arrangement started, significant stuff changed on their end (awesome boss moved depts)
      2) they’ve explicitly offered you upward mobility if you move back and you already realized you don’t want to move back
      2 alone is good enough reason to start looking locally. You thought remote would be enjoyable. You thought you might be coming back. In good faith you believed that at the time. Now you know, it’s not enjoyable and you don’t want to go back. So it’s totally reasonable.
      An unreasonable person might not believe you or think this was your plan all along, but that’s a them problem not a you problem. This stuff happens.

    22. Smarty Boots*

      Staff jobs in higher ed. Is there a reason you are looking at higher ed in particular? Be careful about nostalgia and romanticizing what working at a college or university is like. Like any employer, higher ed employers can be good or sucky; promotion can be good or dismal. Try to get as much info about the school, and also the dept/division/office within the school where you’d be working, with respect to these issues. You should also look into how financially stable the institution is, is it dependent on the state legislature for funding and what’s the track record on that, how is the department or office you’d be working in funded and how well is it funded. If the pay is lesser, do the immediate and longterm benefits make up for it?

    23. JanetM*

      I’m in a different situation — higher ed non-exempt staff — but I wanted to say that 95% of the time I love working in public-sector academia (and I did work in the private sector for about 10 years before coming to the university, in a variety of industries — I temped for about five years when I first moved to Tennessee). I was an admin assistant for most of that time, and am currently in a project manager role (there’s a story behind that!).

      I don’t mind scheduling my life around the school calendar, I am grateful for the benefits (our PTO policies are amazing! and our insurance is pretty darned good), and I enjoy the casual nature of the department (I’ve been in IT the whole time, so we may have a freer environment than some of the academic departments, especially business and law).

      About 4% of the time, though, I want to go smack some bureaucrat (either within the university or in state government) upside the head.

      And every once in a while, I just looked at the person who had come into my office to commit aggravated stupid, and wondered how they managed to remember to breathe.

    24. MissDisplaced*

      #1 No, it’s not deeply uncool. You moved, your manager changed, you began working remotely. Even if you really loved your job these are changes that simply may not work for you anymore. It’s more than understandable. If you like the place, just give ample notice and be accommodating if they may want to you fly back for wrapping things up during your notice.

      #2 I only worked in a staff role in higher ed for a very short time, and left for corporate. I thought I would love the security and emphasis on learning, but man, I was seriously underpaid! Like going backward about 10 years in my career. I also didn’t care for the pompous attitude of my manager, who seemed really clueless and out of touch with the technical field he was managing. Other people seemed very nice, but the pay killed me.

    25. AutumnAlmanac*

      For #1, no it’s not uncool of you. Your circumstances changed, but so did theirs. You’re clearly a valued employee and they might do a certain amount to keep you, but a job is a job at the end of the day. You don’t have to read much between the lines to see that you’re invested in your future career, and that it doesn’t involve staying in a less preferred location just for the chance at advancement. I mean, look at the facts:

      1) You and your husband both like where you live;
      2) You have job opportunities in that area, and have a good chance of getting an offer, as you’ve already got a second interview;
      3) Those opportunities are in a career that you’re genuinely keen on.

      The negatives seem to be:
      1) You might not advance on your current career path unless you move back to somewhere you like less.

      Obviously only you and your husband can make this decision, but from a brief, outsider perspective, all the signs are there. And if you’re worried about your current manager making difficulties, it sounds like if you leave your current job politely and helpfully, you won’t be short of references.

      As for #2, I can’t give you any insight, even second-hand. None of my friends in education are in higher ed.

      Whatever you decide, I wish you the very best of luck. Wherever you end up, you sound like you’d be a wonderful co-worker or boss. :)

    26. TardyTardis*

      Not with good notice–you might have found another job you liked better back in the old area, especially after your old boss moved.

    27. Alexa*

      I can give feedback on #2 since I currently working higher ed. I love it! Although this is my first job out of college, I have had enough work experience where I know a good work environment when I see one. While this could totally range depending on who you work with, I love the community of everyone that works at the University, not just in your department. It’s kind of like a “we’re all in this together” atmosphere since we all have the same goals-make faculty’s lives easier lol. I also like that there are usually a ton of opportunities within the University if you want to move up. It’s also relatively easy to make a good (or bad) reputation within the University since it’s a relatively small community. Last note- another reason is it nice to move up within the University is because you can take all your benefits/accrued vacation leave/etc. with you to another department as opposed to starting over with a new company. Hope this helps!

  2. Emma*

    I don’t know what kind of magical switch got flipped, but I’m suddenly in the running for 4 different positions!! I’ve only had phone calls with recruiters or HR people so far (3 of those calls happened this week!) so I’m trying not to get my hopes up too high…but part of me also kinda feels like probability dictates that one of them will work out? Maybe?

    1. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      How exciting! Congratulations! I hope that you get offers from each and can afford to make the best selection for you!

    2. anonymoushiker*

      That must feel great! I have been in that situation and not gotten any of the jobs, so try to assume none of it will pan out (in terms of your mental health, like Alison recommends), but it is a really good sign!

      1. Emma*

        Yeah! I’m still sending out applications/networking as if I hadn’t gotten a single interview. It is nice to know though that I’m not just launching my resume out into the void, that my skills are in demand, and that my salary requirements are achievable!

      2. Julia*

        Yeah, I’ve had recruiters sing my praises, told me I had a great chance, and then got rejected from all of those positions. Sometimes because the companies didn’t make their true requirements very clear to the recruiters/applicants.

        I hope so much that you will receive many job offers, but spending the last two weeks slipping into a depression because I kept being rejected is not something I wish on anyone. I am rooting for you, though!

    10. Quackeen*

      That’s fantastic! I’m going to come stand next to you in the hopes that some of that good juju will rub off on me! :)

    11. Triplestep*

      I really hope one of these works out and I am vicariously thrilled for you! But I’ll also be the killjoy who tells you that I was in this exact same position a few months ago, and I still don’t have a new job. One of them rejected me, two of them ghosted me, and one of them offered me the job at a 30% reduction in salary, then rescinded the offer when I tried to negotiate. (I would have taken a pay cut to improve my commute, but 20% at most.)

      I later found out the that rejected me went with someone with ZERO experience in the field (thank you Linkedin) one of the ghostings turned out to be a dodged bullet, and the one that rescinded the offer rather than pay me a bit more is STILL advertising, and now they are trying to fill it through contract firms (because no one would take it for the original low salary, so they are now going to shave off even more … smart!)

      Things have a way of working out. Best case scenario you get multiple offers, but not getting any of them might not be so bad either!

      1. Emma*

        Ooof that sounds really rough. I hope you find something soon!! I really am trying to keep my glasses from getting too rose-colored, especially since I got burned pretty badly earlier this summer (was asked to apply for what seemed like my dream job, and did several screens & interviews over the course of 9 weeks only to be told “thanks but no thanks”).

  3. Jack*

    I’ve been working as a scheduling coordinator for a small HVAC company for the past three years. In July, I left for what I considered a “better opportunity” (i.e. slight pay increase, better benefits) doing similar appointment scheduling work for a large, national automotive company. Turns out I was wrong – my original schedule, which was Mon-Fri 10-7 with no weekends, was changed by management on my second day to Mon-Fri 8-5 with every other Saturday. I also never fit into the company’s culture and its revolving door of employees. Being unhappy with the whole experience, I decided to quit on August 24. My employment history is relatively stable with only two employers since graduating college (five year and three year lengths, respectively).

    Should I include this failed stint on my resume? If I don’t then hiring managers will think I’ve been out of work for two months now and will want to know why I left the HVAC company out of the blue. However, if I include the 1-month job, then I’ll have to admit that I made a mistake in taking the new job and will get probed on why things didn’t work out. Either way, I’m going to have a gap regardless. Which method will help my chances?

    1. Murphy*

      I don’t think you made a mistake. Given the info that you had, it seemed like a good choice, but it didn’t work out.

      I think you can cite the schedule change as the reason that you left. It wasn’t what you expected, and when you accepted the job, it wasn’t what you agreed to.

    2. Jessie the First (or second)*

      I think in this case, it’s okay to leave it on your resume, and you can simply say that you are leaving because the new company changed your hours significantly after you started – that’s something that is out of your control, and it’s understandable why you would need to leave. And it isn’t badmouthing your job (if you say it in a neutral way – like “Unfortunately, the needs of the company changed after I started, and my position had to be restructured with entirely different hours. It no longer works with my schedule and so I am looking” or something like that).

      1. Emily K*

        This language is perfect. As someone who has interviewed a lot of candidates before that answer would completely satisfy me without any flags being raised.

      2. Gaia*

        This is a really great answer and it gives 0 red flags and doesn’t come off negative. Best of all, it can be used for a lot of reasons including: schedule changes, responsibility changes, location changes, etc, etc. Basically anything where the job wasn’t what you thought it was, plug it in here and you’ve got a great answer as to why you’re leaving.

    3. Longtime Lurker*

      Leave it off your resume and when they ask about the gap say that you left for a job that was materially different then advertised.

    4. bopper*

      Do you need to show it?

      HVAC 2015-2018
      Other company 2010-2015
      and then don’t mention the one month or if you do just say that the job requirements changed from what you were offered

        1. Jadelyn*

          Agreed. If someone puts “2016-2017” for their time at a job, I’m immediately going to wonder if it was really December 2016 to February 2017 and they’re trying to hide that. Convention is month, year – if you don’t follow that convention, most people will wonder if you’re doing it for a reason, and hiding a short stay is the only reason I can think of for doing that.

          1. BeeBoo*

            I agree if someone has only had stints that show a one year or same year period. But if someone shows multi-years at a company without months, then I don’t think twice about it when I am hiring.

            1. Bea*

              I still do it because it’s information most applications request. Just pick a month you think is close enough if you’re not sure.

              My first job was Nov 2003 to Jan 2004, I recall this easily but I’m a history nerd, dates stick in my head.

      2. Minocho*

        I would show it. The reason you left is entirely reasonable, and easy to present without badmouthing the company or introducing anything worrisome into the conversation (drama, other questions, etc.). It ALSO shows that you are willing to make decisions to leave a position that you are not happy with. This will self select you out of the running for jobs where they prefer employees that are doormats, and show that you have self confidence to try new things and better yourself, recognize problems and look for alternatives when things don’t work out and are up front and honest in your presentation.

        I think it’s a win to have it there on all counts.

    5. Bea*

      Your only mistake is not knowing that auto dealerships are notorious for this. I see the same ones always needing reception/schedulers. That’s absolutely not your fault.

      Leave it off. Its not worth it.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think if you choose to show it/talk about it, all you have to say is that the schedule you agreed upon when you were hired was changed substantially right after you started, and though you tried to make it work, the change was unsustainable. That is imminently understandable, and I think completely reasonable to other employers. Especially given your prior history and if you’re in a situation where you’re not in immediate financial jeopardy if you leave the job without another lined up. Like Alison says, it’s a PATTERN of job hopping that’s a problem, not a single short stint. And your patter is still long stays at a role. You’ll want to be careful about choosing your next one, because you’ll want to try to stay there for a decent term, but this one short term stay won’t sink you.

    7. MissDisplaced*

      Changing your hours on your second day to include mandatory weekends? That’s a pretty huge bait and switch!
      I think you can leave it off, but honestly, a huge switch like that wouldn’t raise red flags. It would be understandable if you left if the job wasn’t represented to you like that.

  4. Doug Judy*

    Thanks for all the input last week on working from home. The interview went very well and you helped me know what questions to ask. Hours are mostly flexible, as in you might have a conference call with a client or your team, but outside of that, you just need to have 40 billable hours to the client each week, so whatever works for you that week to do that, is fine. She clarified what equipment they provide and what things they would reimburse for ($50 for phone, $50 for internet). She said they didn’t have any specific rules about working when kids were home, because it’s more of a “know your family” type thing. Since my boys are 12 and 4, they aren’t usually home during the day anyway, and snow days my husband usually has off. The only time I need is really appointments and random sick day, but it sounds like those have easy work arounds with either working a bit that night or on the weekend to meet the billing requirement if I really couldn’t get work done with them home.

    I am going to meet with the hiring manager next week, and they have a weekly company wide call every Friday that they just want me to experience next Friday as well to get a feel for things. Over all it was very positive, and while I know working from home can be lonely, I think it will be ok. I’m both introverted and extroverted, and it seems there’s enough of a connection to satisfy my need to talk to people, but I also won’t have to listen to Susan’s loud chewing. Overall I am very happy with what I heave heard so far!

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Sounds like a place that is pretty well-versed in remote workers.
      Make sure you have a good understanding of reporting with your manager, check-in days, team calls and one-on-ones. It’s also good to ask if you get to meet your team at least once or twice a year for something like a team meeting at headquarters or something. It helps keep the team connected.

      1. Doug Judy*

        Yes, they do weekly one-on-one with my direct manager, one weekly team call, one weekly all company call and one two day on site once a year.

  5. What’s with today, today?*

    As I’ve said, I work for a family owned, small market radio station cluster.

    Our office manager lost her cool on our most junior employee this week, our production manager. He’s 23, first job out of school and he’s been here about a year and a half. He has a nosy streak. If your cell phone rings, he will strain his neck trying to see who it is calling. He’s also been caught reading a text that popped up on office manager’s cell (cell is on desk, a text alert comes in, and he bends over to look at the text. He’s not physically going through people’s phones). Anyway, this has been a pet peeve of hers and she’s addressed it with him on several occasions. As I’ve mentioned before, our boss is rarely actually in the office because we have multiple stations.

    So, last Friday, one of our sales guys was going out of town. Typically, they finalize an ad sale, write up the production order and give it to the production manager. It’s then his responsibility to get the order (a radio commercial) done and in our system so it airs at the right times. The production manager does not get the production order until it’s finalized. The salesman was not able to confirm the commercial’s start date before leaving for vacation, so he gave our office manger the non-finalized production order with instructions to complete it and then give it to the production manager. This is a normal thing, she put it in her desk, inside her office. On Tuesday, the client called with the start date and our office manager couldn’t find the non-finalized production order. She looked everywhere! A short time later, she’s still looking, when in comes production manager asking about the start date for this commercial and why wasn’t it on the production order. He had taken the production order off of her desk and out of her office. He had actually called the salesman on vacation to inquire about the production date. She absolutely lost her shit on him about taking things out of her office and off her desk, and told him to quit meddling in her business. It was pretty well deserved, the written process says he doesn’t get the production orders until they are completely finalized.

    **Her Office is also where all extra supplies are kept, as well as the master calendar, so it’s not unusual for us to be in there getting pens or checking a date on the master calendar, but don’t be taking things off of her desk!**

    1. anonymoushiker*

      I feel like I would have been that office manager. That is some seriously not-cool behavior by this guy.

    2. MuseumChick*

      Yikes. You don’t take paperwork off someone desk unless you want to get your hand bit off. Did he say why he took it? Did he, after the verbal lashing, understand why what he did was not ok?

    3. Elisabeth*

      Wow wow wow. This kid needs a wake-up call and maybe this was it. I don’t usually approve of someone losing it on someone else, but this is so far beyond okay. Even if he WASN’T a nosy person that constantly tries to snoop on others, there is never any excuse for taking documents from someone else’s desk without clearing it with them first or being asked specifically to grab the documents. He deserved to be called on the carpet.

    4. Bea*

      It doesn’t sound like she was screaming. So I’m all for this kind of dressing down. He’s been spoken to before. You don’t take things you’re not specifically instructed to off someone’s desk.

      I’ve had to get things off a desk when a staffer was out of the office to complete a task. You leave a note if that’s the case or the next day say “hey, I grabbed Jimmy’s order off your desk yesterday so we could bill him.” or whatever.

      Chain of command is important.

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Saying he’s “nosy” is not quite serious enough in this instance because it sort of makes it sound like this is an annoying but unimportant personality conflict rather than a performance issue. He failed to follow the procedure for production orders and he disturbed someone on their vacation. He’s causing a work flow disruption and that needs to be fixed before it causes bigger issues.

      1. What’s with today, today?*

        I only note the nosy streak to explain why he was looking all over her desk. To hear her tell it, the order was under other papers.

        1. As Close As Breakfast*

          Wow. That definitely takes it from *possibly* casually seeing it on her desk to purposefully riffling through her desk. That’s a whole other level of not okay.

    6. Icontroltherobots*

      man, your office has a serious case of boundary issues. I think the next time your boss is in the office you need to have some conversations around respect and acting like a grown up.

      I mean I’m not surprised co-worker is snooping and just doing whatever he wants when you have an 80 year-old man shouting “I’m Old!” to get his way/be sexist/jerky

      1. What's with today, today?*

        You definitely need to be able to handle a semi-crazy, no boundaries workplace to be here. It’s funny though, most of have been here for a decade or more (only junior employee has been less than 5 years), and I will never leave. It’s actually a pretty great place to work. I like to vent on AAM, but I truly do love this place. That said, I do wish the sexist old co-worker would retire.

          1. What’s with today, today?*

            You know, I’m not sure I’ve seen this. I always imagine a country/talk version of WKRP in Cincinnati (though I’m younger than that show). I’m going to check out NewsRadio. Thank you!

            1. Marthooh*

              Now I’m imagining an 80-year-old Herb Tarlek, wearing his white belt and shoes combo, creeping around the office and annoying all the women he meets.

    7. submerged tenths*

      YMMV, but my work also involves production orders on people’s desks. Sometimes it IS necessary, for me to do MY job, to pick up an unfinished order from the desk of someone who is at lunch, in a meeting, or off that day/hour. I always leave a note to let them know I have the document, and when I finish what I need it for, I return it. Haven’t had a problem in 20 years.

      But – it sounds like your production manager is pretty unclear about where the boundaries in your office are. I think he needed the chewing-out, and hope that he got the message!

    8. SarahKay*

      Wow, your nosy co-worker is seriously rude. Okay, he’s not going through people’s phones, but even bending over to read a just-arrived text strikes me as wildly intrusive. I didn’t even do that on my boyfriend’s phone; I sure wouldn’t do it on a co-workers’ phone!

  6. NonprofitBurnout*

    Offered lower level position after interview: Thoughts?

    Earlier this week, I interviewed for a fundraising manager position with a four-person membership organization. The interview went well and ended with the CEO informing me that she planned to fill the position with someone who had more experience but wanted to know if I was open to considering another role.

    I sent a standard thank-you email and briefly referenced that I would be interested in learning more about the other position mentioned during the interview. A short few hours later, the CEO responded and asked to set up a phone call for 10 a.m. this morning. She began the call by stating that she and the team enjoyed meeting me but had secured a new team member for the fundraising vacancy but wanted to discuss an engagement position with me.

    Because the role is new and was not originally budgeted, it would start out as part-time and serve as an assistant of sorts to another staff member. I am happy to have made a positive impression but am somewhat disappointed by the offer of a part-time lower level position, especially considering I have nine years of experience in the field and five years in another.

    The CEO is in process of writing up a job description and will send it to me early next week. I am likely to accept it and continue my job search.

    AAM Community, what are your thoughts? Has anyone encountered a similar situation in their respective job searches?

    Thanks for taking time to read this!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think this requires a lot of internal strength to accept the lesser job. For me, I would have to decide to give it my 200%. If I could not find it in me to run at it in that manner then I would not be able to take the job.
      If you need the income, then take the job. But I have gotten caught in the trap of taking a job just to tie me over and that is NOT what happened next. The job was toxic and it ate up my insides. I had to quit in order to stay on track looking for a FT time. I concluded that I had made my life harder than need be.

    2. anonymoushiker*

      Are you currently employed? What would be the benefit to taking the role right now? How would you carve out time to continue your search?

      1. NonprofitBurnout*

        Anonymoushiker, as I clearly stated in my original post, I am currently unemployed and actively job hunting.

        Thanks for your comment!

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          FWIW, I don’t think you stated that as clearly as you think.

          That being said, if you are interested in this organization and the work they are doing, I don’t see the harm in accepting the position.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I read your post a few times and missed it too. Thank you for adding that information, but be aware that this came off as if you were chastising anonymoushiker a bit.

        3. EditorInChief*

          I read your post too and it is not clear that you are currently unemployed. Depending on the state of my finances I would probably take the job and keep looking for a full time position.

        4. KE*

          I don’t see where you list that you’re unemployed in your original post, just that you’re actively job searching? Did I miss something?

        5. Dragoning*

          I’m uncertain what you’re referring to–that information is nowhere in your post, and I was about to ask the same questions.

        6. submerged tenths*

          I didn’t get that you were currently unemployed, only that you were job-searching. Different things.

        8. marmalade*

          You didn’t state that you were unemployed … I’ve just reread your post a few times and I still don’t see where you said that, clearly or otherwise.

    3. ycat*

      Definitely a gamble long-term. If I were you, I would evaluate the position based on whether you are willing to stay there 1-2 years or more.. Unfortunately there are way too many cases where promises for growth just don’t pan out no matter how successful you are in the initial position.

    4. Camellia*

      It is hard being a brand new person, walking in to a brand new (to the company) position. My daughter did this and it was a nightmare. She interviewed for one position but ‘impressed them so much they wanted to create a position just for her’ instead of giving her the one she applied for. That got her all excited and she felt so appreciated that she accepted. Even though they gave her the new job description, since the position was new, no one was really sure exactly what it should do, the owner kept changing his mind about what it should do, and so forth. She gritted her teeth and stuck it out for a little over a year before moving on.

      1. Julia*

        That explains so much about my last job being such a disaster. Every task no one else wanted to do ended up as mine, because hey, maybe that’s what they hired me for!

      1. NonprofitBurnout*

        Commentators:

        Thank you for your feedback! I must say that I’m seeing a lot more negative responses than I expected.

        Basically, here’s the situation:

        **Since March, I have had 20 interviews and gotten to the final spot five times.
        **Because of money, scheduling, or other factors, none of the jobs have worked.
        **I currently am eating into my accounts and don’t have unemployment or other income.
        **The lower-level position I was offered is part-time contract, and the CEO is open to my having another job
        and leaving for something better down the line.

        Given that I haven’t yet seen a job description, I don’t know how I feel about accepting the role. I am leaning toward yes because of finances and having something new on my resume.

        Again, I appreciate your comments. I just wish less focused on toxic workplaces. Does anyone have a happy or neutral story about accepting another position?

        1. Doug Judy*

          I don’t think people are being negative, it just wasn’t anywhere in your OP that you were unemployed, just that you would continue your job search. Plenty of employed people are looking for work and continue to look if they job they interviewed for isn’t ideal. People asked for clarification because it was needed to give good advice.

          As long as they know you will continue looking for a full time position if you take this one, I say go for it.

        2. ZuZu*

          I think people are just sharing their experiences which unfortunately have not always been good.

          To me, the role being contract makes a difference. I think it is fine to accept the position with the expectation that you are still job searching and would put in notice should you receive an offer for a full-time position at the level you are looking for.

          FWIW, I once interviewed at a company that then cut the budget for the role. They offered me a lower-level position ($30k less a year) which I turned down. Three months later, when a more suitable position became open, they reached back out to me, and I was hired. I worked there for three years, and increased my pay by more than 30% during that time. So there are happy endings out there!

        3. Overalls*

          I hate to state the obvious but if in 7 months you have been full time job searching and only had 20 interviews and not been offered or taken any position it’s time to re-evaluate what you are doing. Either you are not as qualified as you think for the title and pay you need/want or like your statement of being unemployed above you are not coming across clearly. Either way if you’re out of finances with no immediate prospects and it’s coming on a year unemployed you need to take the job and work it like a FT job to prove you’re worth and potentially turn it into a full time gig. Also when you put negativity out there you pull it back to you.

          1. Zillah*

            I think that this is highly dependent on how many apps the OP has been able to get out and how many positions are in their area.

            1. Overalls*

              I would agree if the op was still working, but with no job that’s roughly 3 applications a month. That is less than one application a week, At that point the consideration has to be made that either a change in career paths/resume change or change in location need to happen. Especially when the op is dependent on a paycheck.

              1. Emily K*

                She has had an average of three *interviews* a month, not three applications. In my experience in DC nonprofits, that’s a pretty good track record. Most applications do not lead to interviews. Making it to the interview stage that many times is a pretty good indicator that she’s aiming more or less in the right direction. And on top of that, she was a final contender for 5 of them, which is further evidence that she’s on the level.

                The last time I was actively searching the nonprofit job market in DC I sent out 16 applications over the course of about 6 weeks, which led to 4 interviews. 3 of them chose someone else and 1 made an offer, which I accepted. I think we can assume that 20 interviews means something more like 100 applications were filed.

                1. Zillah*

                  Yeah, this is kind of what I was getting at. If you’re in a competitive area with a lot of high quality applicants, it’s not necessarily that you’re setting your sights too high – you might just have not gotten lucky.

        4. submerged tenths*

          As others have said, why not go for it? You have nothing else going on except the job search, and it is possible this P/T contract could become F/T and fabulous. You’ll be making at least some money and should have time to continue looking. Give “yes” a chance and see where it leads!

        5. Falling Diphthong*

          The CEO is open to my having another job and leaving for something better down the line.

          Based on this, plus your current finances, I would likely take it–it offers money and relevant networking contacts, two things you could use. If you were quitting a full-time job to take it (and like many, that’s how I read your original post) then I wouldn’t advise taking part-time when you need full-time. But right now you need something that pays, ideally in your field, and this fits those criteria.

          “Creating a post for” is something I’ve heard of going well or poorly, due in large part to how good the company is at figuring out how to fit you and the org together. Camellia’s caution is a wise one–but if you are going into this with the view that it’s a short-time bridge to full-time here or full-time elsewhere, rather than a sign of their true love, you have less emotionally invested.

        6. Overeducated*

          Given that added context, if the job description seems reasonable or the CEO is open to revising it to match your strengths, why not do it? I commented below mentioning turning down a job that was a lower level offer requiring a move – I wound up working part time and on contracts for the following year waiting for a good enough full time offer. And those part time and contract jobs were fine, they were not toxic workplaces, they added to my resume, and my supervisors were neither surprised nor upset when I left.

    6. Auntie Social*

      I would do it, because you’re creating a new position so it can play to your strengths and your experience. I’d bet pretty soon you’d be full time and indispensable.

      1. NonprofitBurnout*

        Auntie Social, thank you for the kind and uplifting response!

        I truly appreciate the kind words and positive outlook. The job hunt greatly reduced my confidence and stressed my bank account. I am eager to have a constructive and paid way to spend my time.

        Again, much obliged for the comment!

        1. A tester, not a developer*

          One of the great things about posting to a forum like this is that it can really help you clarify your own thoughts on the subject. The fact that you are so keen to disregard the negative stories and focus on the encouragement makes me think that you actually want to take the offer. In which case, go for it!

    7. Zillah*

      I would do it. I can understand your disappointment, but I think that this is really a win/win.

      You could well end up having a fair amount of flexibility in this new role, since they’re making it specifically for you – if that ends up being the case, you’ll have a good opportunity to really shine. If it turns into a FT position, great – but if it doesn’t, at least you’ll have some income for the moment, current employment, and be in a position to build up a network/new references if they’re aware you’re still looking for FT work.

      1. NonprofitBurnout*

        Zillah, I appreciate your nuanced response.

        Yes, I am disappointed and am continuing to weigh all my options. Your optimistic view summarizes what I’m thinking at the moment. The money and new projects would be a positive as would having time to seek out and interview for other positions.

        Great comment, Zillah!

    8. StellaBella*

      Hi, here are some of my thoughts, for what they may be worth:
      -Get the job description and a contract to read before agreeing to anything. You will be an assistant to the person who’s now got the job you wanted/interviewed for – a fundraising manager role – or to one of the other four people? If to the fundraising manger, this may be an issue – what if you question all they do, how they do it, and that you could do it better? Hmmm. If reporting to another person – can you interview with that person for this new role in more depth ? Have you only met that person or did they participate in depth in your interviews? (You do say in your interviews you met the four person team, so assume of with all the folks?). So – get more clarity first – who/what/duties list/terms of contract – read these first and discuss with the person who would be your new manager.
      -How long is this part time contract in terms of months, and is it part-time? Say it is 50%, are you good at setting your time to say, leave at 12 noon each day (to work only 50% and not be taken advantage of, roped into more work?)
      -If they have hired a new fundraising manager in this 4 person org, how much budget, and exactly where will that budget come from, for your new part-time role? Is the org’s funding stream part of a longer-term, multi-year grant/agreement? If so, is it possible the org can actually hire a person part-time, and fund them, and raise more fund in the time of that contract to gain more funds to make that part-time work full-time, in case it does work out and you like it? You’ve said it was not originally budgeted – where is the funding coming from – and how long is that funding viable to be used for your role? What kinds of donors do they have? Multiple donors? One framework donor? Government or private or individuals or others?
      -Clarify the terms of the contract – if after 3 months, say, you have done a great job, learned the ropes, like the team, and there is budget to lock in a longer contract, can you ask at that point for full-time or do you have to take a 6-month contract? Just be clear how long the probationary period is, and if this may impact your contract.
      -You also said you have 14 years of work experience – 9 in this field – maybe not 9 years tho as a fundraising manager….and you have said you are Ok to accept a role as an assistant to another person (who I think, is not a fundraising manager?) Why do you want to be an assistant to another team member, when you wanted to be a manager of fundraising?
      -What is so appealing about the org that you’d do this? Are they (CEO and other 3 folks) well-connected? What benefits would you get if you took the role, in the long-term – is it a well-respected org that could grow and provide you with a good path? If so, then may be a good choice.
      -Finally, I have had one friend experience something a bit similar once, about 5 years ago. She was brought in to be interviewed for a higher management of finance role – and in the interview the director told her she was interviewing for an assistant role. In the interview. My friend asked for clarification, saw the job description, asked if there was confusion….there was not. She excused her self and turned down the org outright. She knew her worth and would not be bait-and-switched like that.

      So overall I think you need to get more info, evaluate if it works for you, and if so, try it out, and see how the org works. If you are there 3 months, and it is great, then yay! But I’d ask a lot of questions about their growth plans too – because spur of the moment decisions to make a new part-time role, WITHOUT budget, in a non-profit, sends up some red flags for me about poor business planning. But then, as others have also said, some of us have been there, done that, and will steer clear of these red flags. Your mileage may vary. :)

      1. NonprofitBurnout*

        StellaBella, thank you for asking the right questions! Since the phone call this morning, I have considered many of these queries and cannot fully form answers until I receive the job description and contract details.

        Once again, I appreciate your very thorough and thoughtful comment!

    9. Overeducated*

      I have encountered that in the context of a job that would have required a pretty disruptive move, just after my spouse had been offered a new job locally. The difference between advertisement and offer turned me off sufficiently to justify turning it down since I was already pretty reluctant to make the move, but I’m not sure that was the right choice based on where I’ve ended up.

      I would do this in your case if the job is local and you are currently unemployed, and if you think you can convince yourself that the disappointment can be outweighed by the fact that the CEO liked you enough to create a position for you.

    10. marmalade*

      If you have previously worked at a manager level, then this assistant-level position is a major step down, and I think you have to consider potential career consequences there.

    11. Nep*

      I would do it. If it doesn’t work out, it doesn’t work out. You’ll have time, money, experience, and potentially more contacts to help you find something better. It sounds like the CEO is very interested in you. I’d see how it plays out.

  7. eliza d*

    My open office environment is getting to me. It’s been almost a year since my company moved locations and started in this custom built-out open office.

    We have a hot-desking setup but I’m usually able to sit at the same desk, which takes away the top level of stress. But it’s like the foam on beer, there’s so much more underneath that.

    My neighbors change every day. I’m surrounded by peoples’ coughing, chatting, and weird, loud, and smelly food. (One lady unloads her 3-4 containers of lunch at her desk every day. Another guy eats fistfuls of plain spinach and hard-boiled eggs. My office stocks snack-size bags of chips so there is always crinkling.) I can feel my desk neighbor throwing her phone on her desk or violently propping her elbows up. There are 3-4 people who wear very strong perfume/cologne and I smell them every day as they walk past me. The break room is often full of people and I feel like I can never escape them. Even in the bathroom I get stressed out, since we share the floor with a company full of chatty 20-somethings who I think were all the popular ones in school. There is no solitude.

    I arrive early so I can leave early and get the most silence I can but my office is filled with loud people who love to chat. I listen to music, white noise, rain sounds, but nothing can block everything out.

    Mondays and Fridays are the worst, since most of our talkative teapot people are in the office and we deal with a long and pointless all-hands meeting where the salespeople announce who they met with that week.

    I’m irritable and losing focus. I have headaches every single day. I hate saying hello to people and I can feel myself becoming angrier and grouchier with each day that passes. And combined with events in my personal life, I feel like just giving up on everything.

    I don’t know if there’s a solution and I don’t know how bad I should let it get before I start looking for other strategies to deal. There are a couple different options but I feel like if I take any of them (trying to find an empty single-person room of the rooms that are usually booked for teapot classes, attempting to negotiate working from home on a regular basis) I will be labeled “not a team player,” will lose my regular desk spot, and will become more socially isolated than I already am as an introvert at a company full of extroverts.

    I just needed to get out how I’m feeling. Thanks for letting me rant.

      1. NW Mossy*

        I’d like to think that companies aren’t trying to help people innovate by prompting them to come up with increasingly elaborate and gory scenarios involving the inventor of hot-desking, but I dunno, maybe that’s a thing.

      3. eliza d*

        The key word that they kept repeating was “collaboration.” Which, for us independent workers, was not a selling point.

    2. grey*

      I was dealing with this – to the point that I’d be crying at my desk. My management solved the issue by letting me telework twice a week. I suspect that if that was an option that you would have approached it by now, but maybe not and would be worth checking into?

      1. eliza d*

        I probably will look into it if I don’t see any improvement in my mood in the next couple of weeks. It makes me anxious because my manager doesn’t set strict boundaries around working from home but I hear a lot of secondhand rumors and judgement about when people WFH. And her manager is a butts-in-seats person so there’s a little bit of that as well.

      2. Anonymosity*

        I read that as “my management let me teleport twice a week” and thought, wow what a great way to commute. LOL

    3. WellRed*

      I am soo sympathetic on all the food noises, especially the crinkling plastic bags. Drives me batty (look up misophonia if you haven’t heard the term). Is there a WFH option for maybe one of the worst days? Can you use a bathroom on another floor (I actually do this on occassion).

    4. Project Manager*

      Oh man. The thought of my company doing this terrifies me. Do you know if anyone else feels the same way? Maybe you’ll feel better if you reach out for alternatives with a group of people…

      1. AVP*

        I know this doesn’t really exist and would be hard to implement but I just wish the Hot Desking crowd would take a hint from the Amtrak Quiet Car and make a “quiet section.”

    8. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      If you’re getting headaches and it’s affecting your general mental health, it’s already bad enough that you need to look for other strategies to deal. It’s unlikely that you are the ONLY introvert at a company of extroverts. Are there any others like you that you’ve noticed — neighbors that you haven’t had a hard time being around? Instead of being set on your regular desk spot (I do get why that is a comfort but it sounds like you need to prioritize distraction-free space higher), you could try finding a few coworkers whose temperament is similar to yours and try grouping together as much as possible. Maybe suggest that management designate a section of the open space as food-free or quiet zone — it won’t completely eliminate the noise or smell, but it could help push it a bit further away from your immediate space. Alison often suggests getting a group together to try and change a management policy.

    9. Friday*

      “And combined with events in my personal life, I feel like just giving up on everything.”

      OP I’m so sorry you’re going through this. Yes, hot desking is annoying and open offices suck (my work just went to one) but it sounds like this is just one thing in what’s currently a pretty stressful time for you. If I were you, I’d probably ask to work from home as much as I can, and search for a new job. Hang in there and good luck.

    10. Ashlee*

      Much sympathy to you. I don’t have a solution, just chiming in to let you know you are not the only one. Yesterday, the person who sits across the aisle from me had an hour conversation with multiple people standing in/around her cube about her recently filmed Jeopardy appearance. It was the 4th time this week it was discussed at length. I just got up, told my boss I needed to leave early and went home. I could not take another moment of it

      I hope you can band with other introverts (as suggested) and come up with a quiet corner and maybe WFH.

    11. Lumen*

      I was just talking about open plan offices and hot desking with my grandboss and a senior coworker last night! Said senior coworker told us that she turned down a job once, despite the money, because they were an open-plan office. My grandboss said something about creative people liking that, but I mentioned that many of the most creative thinkers I know need time ALONE, in QUIET.

      My thought is that companies do this for three reasons:

      1) PR. It looks ‘fresh!’ or ‘new!’ or ‘different!’ (or insert a buzzword like ‘innovative’ or ‘collaborative’). It is marketing.

      2) Cost effectiveness (or rather: the temporary illusion of cost-effectiveness created by shortsighted strategies that have been proven failures). What’s a constant rate of turnover compared to being able to cram more people into a smaller leased office space? After all, we mustn’t let people work remotely! In 2018! *gasps, clutches pearls, falls over*

      3) Confusing ‘extroversion’ with ‘creativity’. That’s not to say extroverts aren’t creative; just to point out that these two traits are COMPLETELY UNRELATED. And since most companies forcing their employees to do this kind of crap don’t actually want creative thinkers on staff, it’s doubly pointless.

      I had a nightmare once that my current office went from cubes to open plan. In my nightmare, I quit on the spot. When I woke up, I wasn’t sure it was a dream because it was JUST THAT REALISTIC. Because I would absolutely update my resume and start looking the same day if they tried to do that.

      *shudder*

      1. eliza d*

        In all the reasons that were given for this open office, cost was never once mentioned. Although everyone knows it is the number one reason. If they just came out and said “it is too expensive to build desk clusters/half-cubes/several small rooms” then it might be more understandable. But they insisted that no, “collaboration” was the number one reason to torture us.

        And the company founder/president/number 1 in charge straight-up said that individual productivity may go down but company productivity will go up. How? I don’t know. I guess it’s the same way that everyone can “do more with less” and how the creatives “work their magic.”

    12. Kathleen_A*

      I work in a largish building that houses a non-profit (where I work) but also a much larger associated for-profit company.

      And the for-profit company just went all-out open concept over the past year and a half. I dread coming in some day soon to find out that the non-profit I work for is going to do the same thing. I have no idea how I’d handle it, but my guess would be “Not very well.” So I don’t have much advice for you, Eliza, but I have a *lot* of sympathy.

    13. Lucille2*

      I hate hate hate open offices. Why is this the trend? The cons far outweigh the pros. I think even having high-walled cubicles is enough to cut the distractions significantly. But, no, we must do away with walls. It will become more manageable, but you will always have to work at focusing. I know that sounds kinda bleak. But here are some tips to help ease the frustration, even if only a little.

      1 – Noise cancelling headphones are essential. Get some big ones so it’s obvious. Headphones in the office are like headphones on a plane. It’s a signal to others that you are not approachable right now. Yes, some people ignore those signals, but many others get it and will ask if you have a minute before taking up your time.
      2 – Disengage from coworker banter. Seriously, don’t get sucked into the personal conversations and time wasting banter. It will kill your work momentum.
      3 – If it’s an option, when you need to buckle down and do some high-focus type work, find a conference room or work from home. Everyone does it. If your manager isn’t a fan of working from home, talk to them about some options for doing work where you need a quiet space.
      4 – Take conference calls away from your desk. People listen in (even unintentionally) and those on the call will hear the background noise. It’s distracting for everyone involved.
      5 – Talk to your coworkers about figuring out some strategies to deal with the new, disruptive environment. I promise you are not the only one who feels they cannot work in these conditions. You’ll adjust, and it will become more manageable, I promise.
      6 – Food smells? I’m open to suggestions on this as well. I may have been known to chew people out for microwaving fish in the break room. There is probably a better way to handle that.

    14. Mosby*

      So sorry you are going through this OP. My office recently moved to hot desking and I can confirm that it’s the worst. It would be totally reasonable if you left your company over this; being happy in your work environment is important!

    15. StellaBella*

      Hi,
      If you google these words exactly, ten recent articles including some actual scientific research, show why you are experiencing this. It is bad for your health and well-being.
      Google:
      hot desking and open offices bad for health
      I am not sure all 44Million articles that pop up will support this but a lot of them sure do. There is LOTS of evidence for the lack of focus issue.
      It’s stupid, it’s bad for health and well-being, it’s (in my opinion) some bad management in action. Good luck, I hope you can resolve it sometime soon and reclaim your health.

    16. marmalade*

      Eating at your desk, apart from a cup of tea or a tiny snack, is so gross. I haaaaaate it when people eat meals, especially hot ones, at their desk. However, I know that battle is lost.

    18. Prof_Murph*

      Highly recommend noise-cancelling headphones – the kind that cover the entire ear. I have Bose wireless with Bluetooth. I play white noise and combined with the noise cancelling, pretty much blocks out all stuff. Pricey but couldn’t recommend more highly.

    19. MJ*

      The smell of hard-boiled eggs makes me vomit. But guess what smells worse than eggs for other people? That’s right – vomit. I regard it less of an annoyance to others and more as a superpower. :D

    20. TardyTardis*

      Move into a single room. It’s not going to get better, and this situation will continue to irritate you more and more. Nobody wants you to be the person who shows up with an Uzi and an attitude. You will not be a team player when your annoyance is probably going to begin to show, if it hasn’t already. You don’t feel any comradeship with these other people anyway, despite being in the middle of them. You might end up liking them *better* if you can get your work done away from them. You are more likely to be an actual team player when you don’t hate everyone around you. Honestly.

  8. Zip Silver*

    Mild annoyance: had an employee call out today and gave me an elaborate tale over the phone about how she accidentally ended up out of town after falling asleep in her friend’s car last night and her friend forgetting to drop her off in our town.

    Just call and tell me you’re sick. The more elaborate, the less believable.

    1. Snark*

      Oh my god, right? “I’m not feeling well and will not be in today,” is really all I care to know. I’m not yer mom. I don’t care why you missed curfew.

    2. k.k*

      I never know which way to go with that. I usually feel bad for taking sick days (which is silly but many of us have that ingrained) so I want to explain that it’s really an emergency or extreme case.

    3. Doug Judy*

      Someone’s hungover.

      But yeah, people think they’re more believable the more details they give, but really it doesn’t help, at all.

      3. Free Meerkats*

        The same temp who decided to fire up a doobie in front of the Air Police when Air Force One was landing behind us was late one day. His reason, “I got rear-ended by a transvestite in my girlfriend’s car on the way to work!” With a long, detailed description of said transvestite.

        While his girlfriend’s car did have some rear end damage, the long story wasn’t needed. Of course, after he left, if any of us were late, it was because we had been rear-ended.

        1. TardyTardis*

          Oh, I have a better story. We had a couple of older teens who murdered someone in their backyard. They fled to Los Angeles, probably to hide with their aunt (though the cops already knew about her and were waiting, oops). So while they felt under pressure, they decided that they just *had* relax by smoking some dope–on the lawn of the state capitol building in Sacramento (prior to legalization). Probably not a good way to avoid police attention…

    4. Arya Snark*

      All I need to know is that you aren’t coming in and maybe, if you’re really sick and/or it’s during a busy period, whether you think it will be for an extended period. That’s it, end of story.

    5. Er...Ec*

      I think it sometimes depends.

      I had an employee call out starting with “this is a weird one” and it sure was. There was an escaped convict in her hometown area and the township was warning people not to go outside. I still have it saved because it makes me chuckle sometimes.

      But if you’re sick, for the love of god, please do not elaborate. I really really don’t want to know that you’ve “been stuck on the toilet all night with shit gushing out” of you. Yes that’s a direct quote and no I didn’t save that voicemail and try to forget I know that about the employee.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          Ugh. I had to specifically tell one of my reports not to give graphic details when calling out sick. And remind him. And remind him again.

          1. ceiswyn*

            The self-certification forms we have in the UK always have a section for ‘details of illness’. I rather resent this, and occasionally choose to make them regret it.

      2. Elaine*

        I had one employee provide *every* detail about their IUD insertion, both before and after. Why they needed it specifically, the procedure itself, the side effects, the pain, etc. Just…nooooo.

      3. bonkerballs*

        I agree, if you’re sick just a simple not feeling well is fine. If you want to be a little more specific, I’m fine with that as long as we don’t cross into TMI territory (“looks like I caught that cold going around” “dealing with a migraine” “kid has the flu” etc).

        But when you’re calling out for something not illness related, I think it’s smart to give a real basic summary of the situation: “my apartment’s on fire” “flight got canceled, taking the next one” “can’t leave the house due to escaped convict.” Even with Zip Silver’s initial comment. If I was in that situation, I certainly wouldn’t call in sick. I would call in and say I got stuck out of town and I’m doing what I can to get back ASAP. Saying I’m sick just isn’t true and I think it looks way better to admit you ended up in a weird situation than to have people find out you weren’t sick and now feel suspicious of your truthfulness.

        1. Catherine*

          When I lived in Florida in a second-floor apartment I had to call out of work because of an alligator. It was sunning itself at the bottom of the only staircase on the building and I did not value my retail job enough to try to jump over it and run for the car. Lucky I’d just gotten a camera phone so that I could prove it to my manager!

      4. curly sue*

        My better half had a co-worker call in with ‘my apartment building is locked down by a SWAT team and I’m not allowed to leave.’ They checked the news, out of curiosity, and yup. (I think they were finally allowed out a couple of hours later.)

      5. TardyTardis*

        We actually had that happen in our neighborhood (at one point, the individual fleeing the cops hid behind our shed, oh happy day…).

    6. anonymoushiker*

      I haven’t had to deal with this, but yeah, definitely brevity is your friend here. I think a lot of people feel like they need to justify why they’re out/prove that it’s valid, when decent managers will trust that you are an adult and can judge when you can’t work or would infect others with your illness and should stay home. Further justifications indicate covering up rather than what they are intended to do.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        I have had some managers that didn’t believe you without details (like the both ends one above). So it can get ingrained that you have to convince the manager that you’re not faking. Which, obviously, is a bad tactic in a lot of ways, but it can be a symptom of previous toxic job.

        1. A tester, not a developer*

          My boss doesn’t want details, but our Occupational Health office does – in disturbing levels of detail. (Incoming TMI warning):

          I have inflammatory bowel disease (Crohn’s), and gave both my boss and Occupational Health a letter documenting that fact. Apparently that wasn’t enough for Occupational Health though. They wanted a list of ALL of my symptoms, and if each one of them is ‘noticeable’ to my co-workers. So I’m supposed to go and ask the 4 people that sit nearest to me, and anyone that I meet with on a regular basis, if my flatulence troubles them? If my occasional rush to the bathroom distracts them? If my waves of nausea make them sad?

          Ummm… no Janet, that is not a thing I will be doing. Working while chronically ill is difficult enough – I’m sure as hell not talking to my co-workers about the state of my fistula.

          1. What’s with today, today?*

            I have Crohn’s too. I would be tempted to lost all of my most disgusting symptoms. My standard answer when people ask about Crohn’s symptoms is, “Yeah, go ahead and google that.”

            1. A tester, not a developer*

              Each document I give them has been increasingly graphic. I’m seriously considering getting 11×14 glossies of my most recent scope printed up and sending them in an unmarked envelope.

              What’s really chapping my a$$ about the whole thing is that Occupational Health aren’t doctors, or even disability claims adjusters. They’re RNs who are supposed to help managers set up accommodations like special chairs or allowing people access to a quiet room if they are having a panic attack. Last time I saw them, the nurse actually had the gall to a) suggest that I’m not actually working on my work from home days, and b) that I could totally control my Crohn’s if I ate differently. It’s a good thing I wasn’t on prednisone at the time, or I’m sure I would have said “My GI suggests that I base my diet on the flesh of idiots”, and then bit her. :)

              2. valentine*

                8×10 color, glossy photographs with a paragraph on the back of each one, explaining what each one was.

    7. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

      I used to work in higher education, and even though I had a written policy – to which I frequently verbally referred – that you could miss class a few times with no penalty and I absolutely didn’t need to know the reason, students would send me the most graphic descriptions of ailments. And then smart phones came along and I got visuals, too. I can’t unsee this stuff, people! (Although the best was when I got a photo of the sign outside the Student Health Center. As though that proved something.)

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Okay, I’m enjoying visualizing the discussion with his friends in which they realized that this, THIS–the Student Health Center sign–would be what sealed the deal on the cover story.

        1. Lehigh*

          I like to think that a friend was like, “I sent a picture of my vomit when I missed class!” and the student was like, “Well, that’s gross…but I guess if I have to send a pic…here’s where I am.”

    8. Bea*

      I sometimes miss these ridiculously detailed stories. It’s been so long I’ve forgotten them but recall fabulous tales…then the other guys get to tell me what really happened. It’s usually “actually he was in the drunk tank.”

    10. LOL*

      I work in an industry where people call out all the time with both believable and not so believable excuses. People go so far as to send in photos of car accidents – of cars that didn’t belong to them.

    11. KatieHR*

      I monitor the absence hotline for 3 manufacturing plants. The stories I could tell you of the reasons people call out of work. And we tell them when they start that we don’t need to know your reasons for calling out just leave your name and department info and the info goes to their supervisor. I think my favorite one was a guy was calling out because he was getting locked up and he used his one call to call work. Oh the stories I could tell.

      1. Bored IT Guy*

        I mean, in a way, that’s actually good, because at least it’s not a no-call no-show, and work doesn’t have to wonder where you are or do a wellness check.

        I probably would’ve used my phone call to call family or a lawyer, and then have them call work, but that’s just me.

    13. Dzhymm*

      On the one hand, yeah, the more elaborate and carefully crafted the story the more likely it’s a snowjob.

      On the other hand, this person may have had a previous employer who grilled them mercilessly over any absence and required a doctor’s note that was notarized and signed by the Pope. Someone like that might very well rehearse their story in anticipation of the subsequent interrogation…

      1. Kat in VA*

        I use this as a hallmark to determine truthfulness – are they attempting to convince me of a dubious story, or convey information factually? Convincing usually requires a lot of extraneous details, conveying generally sticks to basic facts.

        You start using the convince vs convey theory on a lot things – coworkers, bosses, political figures on TV, kids…

    15. What’s with today, today?*

      I struggle with this. It’s because my Dad drilled into me growing up that if you weren’t throwing up or running fever you didn’t miss work or school. I still won’t leave the house if I’ve called in sick, because as Dad always said, “If you are too sick to work(go to school), you’re too sick to leave the house!”

      1. Tort-ally HareBrained*

        I thought that was just me. I’ve convinced myself it is okay to go out for food briefly, but that I have to take it home. Funny the things that stick.

    16. Vat of Foxes*

      Agreeing with a few others who have chimed in: I try to watch any communication that edges anywhere close to the TMI line, but having been subjected to several previous toxic/ableist bosses who don’t believe just an “I’m out sick today” and grill you, it’s really hard to edit my not great immune system’s latest failing correctly for current!boss’s preference.

    17. Decima Dewey*

      I sympathize. We have a circulation assistant who has health issues. She also has a pattern of calling out at least once a week that everyone who answers the phone recognizes. If Monday was a holiday, she’ll call out on Tuesday. If it’s raining, Fergusina will call out. And every time she calls she provides elaborate explanations of what hurts, what she’s doing about it, promising to come in the next day. Often she’ll call out the next day as well, apologizing for doing so. I’ve told her that all I need to know is that she’s calling out, and what time she wants to use for the timesheet, but it doesn’t make any difference.

    18. The Person from the Resume*

      But she clearly wasn’t sick. She can’t take a sick day for that excuse. I’m also not clear why it wouldn’t be a late arrival to work since now that she’s awake she needs to get herself to work.

      Yeah, she was probably drunk. Frankly that story would annoy me. Lie to me with vague excuse. Don’t tell me something that going not a reasonable excuse to miss work on short notice.

    19. anon24*

      I always use the wording “I’m sorry, I just don’t feel able to work today”.

      Could be cause I’m sick, maybe I need a mental health day, or maybe I just feel like playing hooky. I’ve never been questioned.

    20. Nervous Accountant*

      Kind of late to this but we had an employee who called in sick. Subject of email was “feeling sick”…..well s and D are right next to each other on the keyboard and fat finger/autocorrect.. we laughed. We’re jmmature lol

  9. KayEss*

    So a couple months ago I interviewed with a company that I would really, REALLY like to work with… the job is a good fit for my skills with some room to grow in directions I want to go, and they work with a kind of specialized client base that I have significant history and experience with. I did both a phone screen and an on-site interview with the hiring manager and the whole team, but ultimately they decided to go with another candidate. Okay, it happens! I moved on with my search.

    Flash forward to early this week, when I had a phone interview with a recruiter about a position they were trying to fill for a client that seemed like a good fit for me. Turns out, it’s the same position at the same company–apparently, the person they hired didn’t work out for some reason, and now they are looking again. The recruiter can’t put me forward for the position because I interviewed with the company within the past 12 months.

    I emailed the company’s HR director, who sent out the “we’ve decided to move forward with another candidate” email after the first round of hiring, indicating that I’m still very interested in the position. I have not heard back. I’m at my wits’ end about this, because I really need a job and I hate the idea of such a perfect fit slipping through my fingers because I didn’t do enough. Should I follow up again with the HR director? Email the hiring manager directly? Find another hiring channel and apply to the position again through it, with a cover letter explaining the situation? Just accept that this is them politely ghosting rather than saying outright that I suck? Help!

    1. Doug Judy*

      Ugh, this exact thing happened to me once. Everything went well, wasn’t selected but was told they really liked me and the person in HR even asked if she could keep me in mind for future openings. Recruiter called me a few months later, and it was the same job. I reached out the the HR contact, and said “I heard that this position is open again. I know I was not selected the last time, but I would be very interested in being considered again” She responded to go ahead an reapply, so I did. I got a generic rejection two days latter. I’m not sure what the deal was and it was very hard to not take personally. Eventually I got over it but it did sting a bit.

      Unfortunately I would cross them off the list. And maybe see it as a sign they aren’t a company you’d want to work for.

    2. hambone*

      If you have the hiring manager’s email, I would reach out directly! Things fall through the cracks, and the hiring manager would have a better idea of if they would reconsider you than the HR person – after all, the HR person would be checking with them to see if they’re interested in re-opening the door.

      I don’t know if this helps, but this is what I sent an HR person in a similar situation (I had emailed the HR person, didn’t hear back, and this was my follow-up. If I hadn’t heard back I was going to move on to the hiring manager.)

      Hello person,

      I wanted to touch base after the long weekend. I met with Hiring Manager to interview for the Super Relevant Position role in June and completed the take-home assessment. After learning more about the company and the position, I’m still very interested in the role, which I see is again open on the website.

      Could you let me know if the team would be open reconsidering my application?

      I’ve attached my resume here for reference. Please let me know if you need anything else.

      Thanks,
      hambone

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Something like this. Don’t complain or blame anyone for not contacting you, which is where these things often go astray. If they don’t respond, don’t send more follow-ups. But this gives the HM a chance to say “Kay… Kay… Oh, she’s still available? Good!”

    3. Jadelyn*

      If you’ve got contact info for the hiring manager, I’d reach out to them directly. Depending on the size of the company and how involved in recruiting their HR gets, the HR director may have anywhere from half a dozen to several dozen other positions open right now and it’s easy to lose track of a single reapply in the middle of that. The hiring manager, on the other hand, has actually met you and talked to you in-person, so there’s a better chance they’ll remember you.

      Caveat: reach out only once more. More than that, at this point, would feel like pestering to me.

      1. KayEss*

        Oh, I would definitely not initiate any contact beyond that! I will probably reach out to the hiring manager Monday or Tuesday (at least one full week after I contacted their HR, I have to check when I sent the email), and then let it lie.

        I was hesitant on contacting him directly because when I reached out to him several weeks after my interview to see where they were in the process, he came across as kind of put out about it… but I don’t know how much of that was him having a not very warm personality/communication style and my general anxiety about being a nuisance/annoying when communicating with people, versus him being genuinely annoyed by what I thought was a pretty standard thing to do.

    4. Lucille2*

      Like others have said, contacting the hiring manager directly may be your best option since recruiters are often a bit disconnected. Do you have an idea why the previous hire didn’t work out? It may not be a red flag, but worth asking about. If you know anyone at the company who has some inside info, ask around. Or, if you are interviewed for the position again, it’s ok to ask why the position is available again.

  10. Working after multiple sclerosis diagnosis*

    My relative was diagnosed with MS recently. I’m looking for advice how she should approach her immediate boss; what information does she need to disclose? What should she say? Should it be written or can it be verbal?

    We were thinking she can state that she was recently diagnosed with an autoimmune disease and she would like to request flexible hours (come in early, leave early) so she can start her physical and speech therapies. Am I right in thinking this way?

    She works in a different state from the corporate location; does she need to inform the corporate HR when she informs her immediate boss for this accommodation?

    She is not sure how much to share with the company. Her job involves training others (presentations) 2-3 days a week (for 2-4 hours each), some field observations (walking) a couple of days a week (for 2-3 hours each) and computer work at her desk everyday.

    If someone with similar experience can share any bits of guidance and information, that will be greatly appreciated it. Thank you so much.

    1. bdg*

      I think a lot depends on her relationship with her supervisor. I’m very close to my supervisor, so I’d tell her everything. But I’d start with something like, “I wanted to let you know that I’ve been recently diagnosed with MS. It looks like I may just need a little flexibility with my hours to accommodate some therapy, but of course that may change in the future. What should my next steps be?”

      Supervisor should be able to tell her if there’s anyone else she needs to contact, if she needs something in writing, whatever. Companies have experience dealing with medical accommodations.

    2. Thoughts on disclosing illness/getting accommodations*

      Not a lawyer, and obviously please double-check what I’ve stated here about legal requirements, but:
      – I believe 100% HR should be part of the conversation, not just the boss, since HR are the ones meant to be informed about federal law and state law about accommodations for illness. So they might be able to provide a bit more guidance than a boss would. I’m not sure if there is generally a protocol for who gets that info first–boss or HR.
      – She also does not have to disclose the illness type and my understanding is that if the organization pushed her to do so, it would be illegal. Rather, she can note that she has this ailment and that it means there are certain things she would like accommodations for–e.g. regular doctor’s appointments, whatever particular effects it may have on her work or things it might prevent her from doing at work, etc.
      – They may request medical documentation, which I believe is valid but does not/should not be her full medical records–more so, it is a doctor’s agreement that the accommodations being requested are in line with the needs of medical treatment/disease management.

      Hope this helps!

    3. AnneShirley*

      I cannot speak to the documentation side, but I’m the child of someone with MS, so I wanted to offer a caution that MS presents very differently in many people. In my father’s case, he has relapsing-remitting MS, so while everyday accommodations are not required, each “relapse” can present with a different symptom that requires a different plan. (Eg: one month it may mean avoiding long walks; another relapse might require a week’s sick leave; another relapse might just require more temperature control in his office.) My point is that while no one should feel obligated to disclose private medical information, MS varies so much– and is so often misunderstood– that providing some information about her specific condition and needs might be necessary in this case. Best of luck.

      1. Lupin Lady*

        “I wanted to offer a caution that MS presents very differently in many people”

        This is absolutely right. I also have a relative with MS, and yours will likely need to continually change what kind of accommodations they need to keep working. Many auto-immune conditions are like that, so my instinct would be to share they were “recently diagnosed with an auto-immune condition” and that they might need some accommodations like flexible scheduling or working from home in the future. You can always choose to share more information later, but she can’t take it back if she over-shared.

        Be sure to take care of yourself too OP. MS is really hard to predict and that can make the entire journey so much harder. Fortunately there’s lots of research being done, and medicines available now that weren’t available for those diagnosed 20 years ago.

      2. KMB213*

        My mother has MS – it was relapsing remitting, but is now primary progressive.

        As others have said, a lot of what she should do will come down to have comfortable she feels around her boss.
        My mom’s MS has progressed to the point where she is now on disability and has been for years, but, when she was first diagnosed, it wasn’t *that* bad. (Even during her relapses, she could still do a lot; she just got tired more quickly and experienced muscle pain.) Because her MS didn’t seem bad to a lot of outside parties, people questioned if she actually had the disease. I think this attitude is, unfortunately, common with a lot of autoimmune diseases, particularly in younger (like, younger than 60) people. So, if your relative feels comfortable with her boss, she should share, but she should also be aware that MS can be an illness that many people are skeptical of – just something to keep in mind.

    4. Leslie*

      My sister has MS. It’s been awhile since she was diagnosed, so my information may be out of date, but I believe there are two types of MS: one comes and goes, though it can still be progressive; the other is considered always present and progressive deterioration. She would get flare ups and then be ok; during those flare ups, she was considered to have a disability and could be covered by disability law. HR should probably be involved, if you want accommodations.

    5. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Here’s my advice as a manager.

      She can give her manager a heads up that she’s going to be talking to HR about potential accommodations for a medical condition. Then she should communicate directly with HR, who will walk them through the process.

      As a manager I don’t need or want to know any details or specifics from you (example employee) directly. If it’s something I will need to know our HR team will let me know. In fact I will likely cut you off if you start to tell me specifics about your health and refer you to HR.

      As a person, I would be curious and concerned, and most likely frustrated that I can’t be more direct help. But will find comfort knowing that I set you on the best path for successfully navigating this issue.

    6. NeverNicky*

      I have MS – diagnosed in 2003. My condition is relatively benign – I have relapses but the level of disability is fairly low.

      However, I disclosed my condition fairly early on – partly for the protections the Equality Act offers and I needed time off for physio and tests.

      MS is an unpredictable condition so flagging that is important as accommodations may need to change over time – or even day to day.

      Whilst I have managed really well for most of my time with my current employer I have had a rough time recently. My employer has been very supportive but I think some of this is because they have got used to me, my condition and it’s not (for them) a scary unknown. They know I’m a good employee despite my condition so were willing to work with me through this tough time.

      Your relative may choose not to disclose until they need to – and that might work too. But good luck whatever they choose.

  11. Tilly*

    I used the ethics hotline portal for the first time yesterday to report my boss screaming profanities about my coworker to someone on the phone. She was in her office with the door shut but it was so aggressive and hostile. (Said coworker was not at her desk to hear the rant.) It went on for at least 10 minutes, f-word at least 20+ times and it made our whole department uncomfortable. We share a floor with HR but of course none of them were anywhere to be found. After the rant, she came out and acted like everything was normal, which was kind of insane. It was terrible and not the first time.

    Our director is out this week but I think I’m going to mention it to her on Monday that I elevated it to the ethics hotline and maybe she’ll take it more serious than other incidents. The manager and the coworker she was badgering are such toxic people and used to be BFs but had a falling out and causing all sorts of drama. Trying to hang in there until I’m vested next spring to get a nice chunk of money and tuition reimbursement. Please hurry up April…

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      In previous positions I’ve been in, our ethics hotline was meant for things like, “my boss is committing fraud” or “I think there’s a conflict of interest with this client account,” so I’m curious how the ethics hotline responded to your call?

      1. Tilly*

        I debated if it was the right channel but figured if it’s not, that is their call to disregard. I thought it fell under our Code of Conduct’s workplace harassment clause under demeaning and disruptive behavior. I’ll find out in 2-3 business days.

      2. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Internal auditor here. I’ve audited the hotlines. You’d be surprised at some of the weird stuff they get. Customers looking for the help number (you get a real person), etc. Generally, they log everything, even hangups, and forward it through the investigation process, whatever it looks like. I’ve seen cases where significant action was actually taken on a manager doing stuff like this – a good company knows it’s a big problem. If this is how they hear about it, cool.
        Also, typically hotline activity (very high level) is reported to the Board.

        1. Marjery*

          Is the hotline annonymous? If so I wouldn’t mention to your director and let the hotline deal with it.

        2. Minxy*

          I made a complaint (managerial misconduct, significant money loss, big stuff) but never heard back from the ethics line, no questions or anything. I only know it’s being looked into through former coworkers who have mentioned out of the ordinary visits by and meetings with upper management. Does the company ever come back and say the investigation was wrapped up (even if they can’t tell me the result)? Because if it wasn’t for former coworkers, I feel like I was just shouting into the void.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Maybe I’ll get blasted for this, but you manager was in her private office, with the door closed, and you reported her for a profanity laced conversation with someone she was on the phone with? Why?

      Is it unprofessional and toxic? Sure, but it wasn’t directed AT you (or anyone who was there). Technically, it’s not even a conversation you should be listening to. People get mad. People swear.
      Sorry, but I think you’re in the wrong for reporting this, at least in this manner. Not your circus, Not your monkeys.

      1. Lehigh*

        But she was clearly audible through the closed door, which makes it no longer exactly private. A private office and door only help matters if you can contain your rage to something approximating normal speaking-voice levels.

      2. Mad Baggins*

        Yeah but they shouldn’t get mad and swear at work. If the boss put her foot through her computer screen, would that be ok as long as it was behind a closed door and therefore not AT anyone? There are still standards for how to behave at work.

    3. Tilly*

      The shouting was so loud and hostile, people texted me from three rows over asking what was happening – it reminded me of those workplace violence videos when someone loses it and snaps. She continuously screamed the f-word and called her direct report a bi***. People were scared to get up from their desks. She’s done this before but never as loud and directed at one person. So while I get it was a private convo with her wife, our offices don’t give the slightest illusion of privacy or of being soundproof and she was screaming. None of us wanted to be listening to the convo. It was scary and she was berating our team member.

      If the hotline wasn’t the right channel, they’ll disregard it. I’ve just never felt so uncomfortable and fearful at a job bc of someone coming unglued.

  12. ChachkisGalore*

    Trying to get this in early to hopefully get some help on this.

    I’m responsible for training a new colleague who just started on some stuff (but I’m not his boss – we both report to the same manager). However the training isn’t going well. Anything I try to show him he pushes back on and sort of flips around and seems to try to be “schooling” me on the subject. Sidenote: he comes in with some specialized knowledge/experience that I don’t have, which is great (and I would like to learn from him once we’re settled in), but it’s generally not relevant to the stuff I’m showing him. If he wants to do things differently then how I do things, that’s cool – but a lot of what’s going on feels like subtle powerplays and the bottom line seems to be that he doesn’t trust that what I’m saying/explaining to him is accurate. Additional clarification: he’s not so much questioning my methods in an effort to understand them (which I highly encourage!), he’s actively making multiple suggestions or outright saying “no I think the next step should be x” (which again – if he wants to do things differently after he’s fully trained have at it, but it’s really frustrating/inappropriate for this be coming up the very first time I’m showing him something).

    I’ll put it out there bluntly – I think it’s at least somewhat a gender thing. He’s coming across (to me – a woman, also it’s a very aggressive/male dominated industry in general) as arrogant and mansplainy. Although – who knows. Maybe it’s just simply a personality clash or our my training style is a particular mismatch. Whatever the case – I can deal with it on a colleague level, but I’m not quite sure how to cover my butt in terms of the training aspect. I’m doing what I’ve been tasked to do – train him on stuff – but I don’t want it to reflect poorly on me if he ends up “poorly trained”.

    One other data point: I also have a (male) intern that I’m training and not having any of these issues with.

    Should I talk to our boss proactively to explain what’s going on? Or just hope for the best and address the issue if it does come up down the line? I’m just afraid he’s going to make mistakes down the line, our boss will catch them, but it will either be assumed that I didn’t train him properly or that colleague might even actively blame it on me – “oh well Chackis didn’t explain that to me”. Also – I’m not well established in the dept yet – only been here about 9mos, so that’s why I’m worried about how this situation will reflect on me. Actually now that I’m saying this – maybe this is contributing to the issue. Help? Please!

    1. Myrin*

      I’d say definitely talk to your boss, both as a method to proactively cover your behind and to ask for advice on how he would like you to handle this!

      1. Monty and Millie's Mom*

        I second this. Since you’re not having trouble with the intern, it’s pretty specific to this guy, and maybe he’s like this with everyone, but that’s not the point – the point is that he’s being this way specifically with you as you are trying to train him, which you are doing at your boss’s direction, so it’s always wise to keep the boss in the loop.

    2. Nita*

      Hmmm. If he likes explaining so much, maybe turn the process around and ask him to explain back to you what you’ve just taught him! Let him do most of the talking if that makes him feel better, and then just step in to correct whatever he gets wrong.

      And if he insists on doing things differently, how big a deal is it? In my line of work, if you want to deviate from standard procedure you’ve got to check with the project manager first. Sometimes there are good reasons to do that, and sometimes there are better reasons not to – and a new employee likely would not know one way or the other. If it’s similar for his job, make sure he knows that he has got to clear any changes with the boss. Even if he’s got some unfortunate personality clash going on with you, maybe it doesn’t carry over to his relationship with the boss, and this advice will sink in for him.

      And whether or not training goes well, touching base with your boss is a good idea. They may need to know they should keep an eye on this guy to make sure he remembers what he’s been trained on, and doesn’t start messing up procedures because he’s trying to do them the old-job way or just not following instructions.

      1. Birch*

        This is a good technique even for people who are genuinely just overexcited about learning something and try to jump ahead of your teaching. Give them the full rein for a minute, ask them to do the whole thing, then let them crash and burn and explain why what they were trying to do won’t work. Generally takes the wind out of their sails and convinces them to calm down enough to listen to you.

      2. Perse's Mom*

        I kinda think this approach will result in him doubling down on the arrogance and may actively worsen his (in)ability to take feedback or corrections. He’s new – he needs to know how things work NOW and WHY they’re done that way before making changes to the process, but he’s not at all interested in learning or understanding those things, just in getting HIS way.

        1. Jadelyn*

          I’m coming down on this side of things, too. Don’t give him free rein – he’ll abuse the hell out of it and take it as a sign that he can run roughshod over you and you’ll just roll over and let him (whether that’s true or not, that’s how he’ll read it). I’d suggest instead, when he starts, raise an eyebrow and wait for him to finish. Once he’s done, completely ignore what he said and continue where you left off as if he hadn’t spoken at all. If he tries to pursue his line of argument, something like “Yes, I heard what you said, and maybe that’s something to consider at a later date once you’ve had some time to settle into this role, but right now, we’re talking about the current process and I am going to keep us focused on that.”

      3. ChachkisGalore*

        I have tried taking a more passive approach – letting him proceed until he hits a road block and only jumping in if he actively takes a wrong turn or when he turns to me and says “what next”. So then I tell him (“ok so next step is check A”) but he’ll straight up disagree with me and say something like “actually I think we should do y next” – and then I’m just like (to myself) why did you ask me if you don’t actually want my answer?

        I think you really hit the nail on the head in that he’s trying to do things the way he did at his last place! He comes from the same industry, but different specialty. I think the issue is that he doesn’t quite understand the distinction btwn the two (or maybe doesn’t understand that there is one).

        Also slight update: I talked it over with a trusted colleague. She’s going to listen in when we are training at his desk (she sits next to him). Then next week I have some other stuff going on so she’s going to work with him on some of the training to see if she has similar issues. I think it would be helpful to be more sure whether it is a personality/work style/training clash vs a gender thing.

        I am going to check in with the boss today or early next week. That sounds like the right move.

        1. Smarty Boots*

          Maybe you are not being direct enough. So in your example he says “I think we should do Y” and your response is to think to yourself, then why did you ask me? Instead say to him out loud, no, Y is not correct. The next step is A.

          1. ChachkisGalore*

            That is what I do actually. Though I’ve been trying to soften it a bit – my out loud response is more like “well Y only gives us part of the info, that’s why we do A instead – because A gives us the full set of info”. Then he goes “Well couldn’t you just do C instead? C is really the most effective way to blah blah blah and you know the history of C blah blah blah”. Then I explain how we make teapots which don’t produce C’s (he previously worked on coffeepots, which do produce C’s). Then he seemingly doesn’t hear me and says, “no, but C’s are really the best thing to use, blah blah blah”, and so and so forth.

            I do agree though that I need to be more direct and shut the multiple “suggestions” down (at least in the initial training on something). I was trying to give him space to work things out and answer his questions/respond in good faith, but I’m definitely going to use some of the suggested wording/scripts here to make it clear that I’m there to show him the current steps/processes NOW and without all the back and forth. Any suggestions or changes need to go to the boss.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I ‘d talk to the boss but I would also up my game plan with him, too. Tell the boss what you show here would be perfect, be sure to include the part about how he does not do this to your cohort.

      To him I would say things like, “I am responsible for you knowing that this company wants the procedure handled this way. If you need to change how you handle things you can do that LATER. We need to stay in current time and Right Now this is how we handle Xs.”

      OR

      “What we are doing here is I am showing you current company procedures. We are not re-writing how the company does things right now. We are JUST looking at how procedures are currently handled. We will get through this much quicker if we do not discuss how each procedure is handled incorrectly. I have X amount of material to cover and Y amount of time to do it. Let’s move on, shall we?”

      [With this last one make sure you land on your next step forward for the material right in front of you. If you end on any of the previous sentences you are leaving the conversation open for more debate/lecture/whatever. Land on a redirection of the conversation.]

    4. schnauzerfan*

      I would definitely touch base with the boss. When I am training (often 2-7 people on similar, but not identical tasks) I keep a training log so I know what I’ve gone over with whom. So “showed process A” to Tom and Ann. “linked Bee to the hive video” etc. Then I make a little note about how the training was received. i.e. Ann had a few questions, but said A made sense and she finished the follow up exercises. Tom had no questions and missed more than half of the problems he attempted on the follow up… not finished with the exercise by eod. Bee viewed Hive video, says it was life changing…

      Then if there are questions later on we no the person was/was not trained on a given task, or may only need a refresher if they need to step into someone elses position.

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        I like the idea of a log! I’m going to start making some notes on what we’ve covered so far. I have run into an issue where he’s claimed not to have seen something that I know I went over with him. I have no problem going over something a second or third time (it’s a LOT of info, so I understand sometimes it’s a bit of info overload), but it was a bit concerning to me that he specifically claimed not have seen it before.

    5. Camellia*

      OMG, are you me? I had this exact problem, except he would come right out and say he didn’t believe me/trust me. (Side note: OldManager knew I trained well and I had trained eight people by this point. Unfortunately, OldManager left right when this happened.) When I went to NewManager, she just said I have to explain things better so he would understand. It never got better, even after his training was over and we were peers. I never figured out how to fix it/get him to stop. A couple of years later I was transferred to another project. Yay!

    6. Tara S.*

      (This feels like it probably is a gender thing, which sucks, so sorry.) Can you try setting expectations with him for training? Something like “I know you’re coming in with experience in X, and that we may do things different here. I need to show you the basics of how we do things here, which may include stuff you already know. If you have suggestions for process improvements, that’s great, but you should let Boss know. I just need to get through the basics with you, normal part of on-boarding!” If he continues to challenge you on how to do things, brush him off with an “Ok. This is how we do it here, if you have improvement suggestions, you can let Boss know.” Hopefully this can help, if you let him know “feel superior all you want, telling me about this stuff isn’t going to change anything, so bother someone else with it!” Best of luck!!

    7. LCL*

      My suggestion works for technical things, not so well for processes.
      Before each session, tell him ‘I want you to learn how to do this, and to do it, the way I show you. My way may not be the best way, but it works and it is the way we want it done. If you have a different idea, hold that thought. Next day/next break/whenever, write down your changes and we will go over them and see if we should incorporate any of them. We want to upgrade when needed, now is not the time.’ If he is capable of learning from you, this will help him focus and make clear what he is supposed to do. And he may have a better idea about a step in the process, this allows him to better explain it and makes him responsible for the changes. And if he is just hardheaded, you will find that out. Don’t mention this to the boss until you have done 1 training session with him and learned what kind of change advocate he is. Then talk to the boss.

      We have equipment here that dates from the 60’s. Sometimes the old way to do something is the best way, learned through bitter experience. Sometimes a fresh approach will lead to a better process, but careful analysis should be done first. Sometimes the equipment is relatively new and the new guys are more familiar with it and the new way is the better way. Everyone says there must be a better way to do things. Very few are willing to follow up with process analysis and writing up the new process.

    8. peachie*

      UGH. I hate this kind of thing. Same thing happened to me in my last role (also a woman, also a very arrogant man [who was just out of college], but thankfully(?) in a majority-women office). He kept doing a process wrong because he thought I was making it unnecessarily difficult even though I explained on multiple occasions why he couldn’t do it that way and the problems it caused me specifically and the organization in general. It was a database interface and he kept just typing in the new information he wanted instead of linking it–think changing out the main contact for a vendor–so it would LOOK right but actually be linked to the wrong thing. It caused a ton of problems as it was almost impossible to tell when it had happened without individually spot-checking thousands of records, so things would get sent out, sometimes to very high-level clients, with the wrong information after they’d contacted us multiple times to change it. (He eventually got fired for making a different but equally huge mistake.)

      In my case, I talked to my boss about it and kept records of the detailed instructions I had sent him. It was very annoying but it never reflected poorly on me. That’s what I’d recommend–definitely talk to your boss, and if you haven’t, I’d make sure that you have written materials that are clear about the correct process. I’d try to frame it as “I’ve trained him but have noticed he’s making x mistake frequently; we talked about it, but I got pushback and noticed that it’s still happening” (rather than focusing too much on his attitude–his attitude is gross and it’s a definite problem, but I’d try first to focus on the work impact).

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        Oh! I do have a ton of notes that I compiled into a manual of sorts for myself. I’m going to start emailing him the portions related to what we’re going over. Then I have some sort of documentation that I did provide him the full details at some point/in some way.

        I really hope it doesn’t come to that (and that’s why I wanted to ask here – to hopefully prevent a blow up down the line) but I’ll probably be way less stressed about if I feel like I have do have some sort of back up in case things do turn ugly.

    9. Lumen*

      I’m just gonna say: it usually is a gender thing.

      I know, I know, we’re supposed to give as much benefit of the doubt as we can stomach even if we never get the same. I know, I know, we mustn’t seem shrill or shrewish or oversensitive (can’t give the sexists any more ammo, after all – being a woman and trying to be in the workforce is already 2 strikes). I know, I know, aren’t we really the sexist ones for thinking men are being sexist?

      But nine times out of ten when someone posts here and says they suspect some sexism or outright misogyny going on at work, they are. Absolutely. Correct.

      Unconscious bias is a real thing. Totally conscious but passive aggressive bias is a real thing. The gender pay gap is a real thing. But I have yet to see any evidence that the so-called ‘woman card’ (or the ‘race card’ or the ‘whatever card’) is a real thing, though.

      So yeah. It’s probably a gender thing. At least in part.

    10. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I’d be kind of blunt about things with your new coworker.

      “Bob, I know there are different ways to accomplish this task/process and I’m sure once you’re familiar with them you’ll be able to make the job your own and bring a fresh perspective. What I’m showing you right now is the way we currently do things. Once we’re done with the basics and the training, we’ll have plenty of time to evaluate and possibly change things, but first we need to get through the training bits” then just steamroll past the ‘no we should do it this way talk while you train’.

      As for being concerned about being thrown under the bus, make sure that you have some written instructions for things that you give him and retain copies of. Doesn’t have to be a 90 page document, but maybe a list of high level important tasks and deliverables. That way you have a bit of CYA with the added bonus of something to reference if he comes back looking for more help and a reference for him to use when he’s on his own… it’s a bit of a win-win-win situation.

      The other advice I have is to really evaluate what changes he’s suggesting. I’ve been trained by people who would have reacted shocked if I suggested, “Hey, instead of hand keying these numbers in, why don’t we just copy and paste them” and you would have thought I suggested we burn the office down while chanting the opening credits of Sesame Street.

      This may not be relevant, so disregard if not applicable.
      It can also be a bit intimidating to be training someone relatively soon after learning it yourself (I know I’d be a ‘by the book’ trainer if I new to learning it myself.) You may be a bit overly cautious in the direction you are giving him, and have a lower risk tolerance for deviation from what you know.

  13. anonymous for this - need career advice!!!!*

    I need advice.

    How do get into consulting?

    I’ve been with the same job for 5 years (my first job out of college, which I graduated from 2 years ago). I’ve worked my way up pretty quickly in my small-ish organization. I know report directly to the VP of Operations and manage a team of my own. I really, really enjoy working in operations, and also managing people. I feel that I really have a skill in managing people – I genuinely like people, working with them, and working with them to improve (another big part of my job is development of sales employees). Things I don’t love about my job: hiring and training new people, having so MANY different responsibilities because it’s a small company and I can handle it, and dealing with our blowhard VP of sales.

    However, I’m really, really ready to move on from my job. It’s just time for something else. The idea of consulting (management consulting, which I know Allison does!) has always been attractive to me, but I’m not sure how to really get into it. I don’t even know anyone in the industry to try and talk to in an informational interview. I also feel like it’s probably cocky to think that I could coach people on managing while I’m so early in my career (I’ve been managing for about 3.5 years, and been working in operations for about 2 years. I’m 25 years old, for context.)

    Does anyone have any advice? Consulting isn’t the only career path I’m considering, however, I’m having difficulties finding positions in operations (operations manager, operations director) that I’m qualified for AND is the around the same as how I’m paid now. (I suspect at 57k on the east coast I might be overpaid?) The owner of the company has always promised to help me find a new job after this one, and we have a wonderful relationship, but I know she is counting on me staying with the company for another year, so I don’t really want to approach her.

    I know this is a lot. I just love this blog and community and was hoping someone might have some insight.

    1. J.B.*

      I’d start off by just applying to management consulting firms. I don’t know that they’d be super into the informational interview, but plenty of firms need people a little above entry level. I don’t think they would hire you into supervising other people, but would have projects you could contribute to.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I don’t have help to offer, but a quick semantics note that will be important as you talk with folks about what you’re considering: “management consulting” is a specific field that is separate from “providing consultation about management issues” (which is what Alison does and what you’re hoping to do).

      Companies like McKinsey & Co, Boston Consulting Group, Bain, and etc. are in the management consulting field. They do not focus on people management, but rather strategy and analysis about larger-scale questions (like: how should we structure this company to best take advantage of an emerging market trend?). These companies do the majority of their hiring through on-campus recruiting of undergrads and MBA students.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes. It doesn’t sound like you’re at all interested in what’s generally known as “management consulting” (which is usually stuff like “how do we shave costs on our international procurement processes” or Victoria’s example about emerging market trends). If you did want to do that, you’d almost definitely need to get an MBA.

        But you sound like you’re interested in helping coach managers to manage better — a different thing. Unfortunately, you’re right that right now you don’t have the experience for it … but if it’s a goal you want to work toward, I’d aim to take on positions of increasingly senior management authority, which in time will set you up to do it.

        I actually hire people to do exactly this work for a client, and while there’s no “you must have exactly X years of experience” requirement, in general we’re hiring people who have at least 10 years of experience managing teams, including substantial experience managing at senior levels — a #1 or #2 or a head of a large department, where they were managing senior-ish folks and other managers.

        I hope that helps!

        1. NW Mossy*

          Out of curiosity, Alison, do you see a lot of candidates looking to take something like this on as a second-act/semi-retirement situation after an executive career? I’ve considered the possibility of doing this sort of work when I reach that phase of my life (in about 20 years, so hardly immediate), but not sure if that seems wildly off-base.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Some, but not a ton. It would definitely be possible though. One thing to note is that you have to be okay with going back to individual contributor status (with all that entails, like not having people to delegate to). Not everyone wants that at that point in their career (and others love it).

        2. anonymous for this - need career advice!!!!*

          That helps so much!! Thank you very much Alison! (and thanks for Victoria NonProfit for making that distinction!)

    3. Doug Judy*

      Do you mean starting your own consulting business or joining a consulting firm?

      If it’s the first, I am not sure how successful you’ll be getting clients when it sounds like you don’t have wide range experience. You might be very good at what you do and love it, but having only worked for one company in one industry isn’t likely to be enough experience to jump right to management consulting.

      Joining an established consulting firm might be more plausible but will probably involve networking with those companies. A simple google search of “Management consultants in X city” should get you some results to at least know where and who they are. Some of them might have workshops or something you can attend to connect. But this is also a long term play. Keep looking for something else, because with either case, I really think you’re going to need more experience. The great news is that at 25 you are have a lot of time ahead of you to gain that experience.

    4. EEK! The Manager*

      Ooh! I just explored getting into consulting. It ended up not being for me, since most consulting Jobs require lots of travel. The work seems SO interesting, though! I would start looking atajor consulting firms: Bridgespan for nonprofit, then Bain, McKinsey, etc. They usually recruit in cohorts and have extensive professional development and training. After a few years doing that, it would be much easier to transition into more freelance or specialized consulting.

    5. A Consultant*

      I think you should start with researching the types of management consulting (functions / roles / services that are provided) that are out there and narrow in on what areas you are most interested in. That label is a pretty broad umbrella, as others have noted – from strategic planning to HR consulting to leadership development etc, etc, etc. Which space are you interested in? Or all/any of them? With that, research what firms are out their in that zone. Not just the biggies that others have mentioned, but the smaller firms and one-person shops, and what types of services they offer.

      I would advise you to try to get on staff at one of those firms. My preference would be for a smaller business, especially if you have dreams of having your own consultancy one day. You will learn the skills of being a consultant, the professional norms of this type of work, client management experience, and in a small company, you’ll likely get more of a peak at the business side of things. That is invaluable if you ultimately want to start your own firm.

      Given your status, I think it would be tough to get a solo practice off the ground. It doesn’t sound like you have the contacts to form a client base at this stage. It’s not impossible, but it would be tougher. Another option, if you can’t find a full-time job with a firm, is to offer your services as a freelance contractor to smaller shops for when they have overflow work. (Small shops often get into a “when it rains, it pours” state, without the long-term capacity to hire someone full-time, but in need of support NOW.) In this model, your prospective clients are the consulting firms, and you position your support role in its value to them. You get paid, they get help delivering work to their clients, and you get to learn by working with someone who’s been at it for longer.

    6. EA in CA*

      Unfortunately, you lack the experience needed to coach managers, as Alison pointed out. Having one, short tenure as a manager isn’t going to give anyone confidence in your ability. People look to consultants as the subject matter expert in something they do not know. So you need to come with experience to back your credibility as a consultant. If this is a path you want to take, you need to diversify your management experience and to continue working your way up. You’re looking at investing at least +10 years in various management roles to look credible as a Management Coach. Also, take opportunities to get coaching yourself as your grow in your management career. There are lots of good workshops and programs offered by either consulting companies or even some colleges/universities as continuing education.

      As for the positions you are currently applying for (your examples were operations manager, operations director) you probably are competition with people with much more experience than you, especially in the director role. Stellar employees will typically rise quickly in smaller organizations because you offer the company a skill set that fills a gap for that company. In larger organizations, your career growth would potentially had been much slower. At least that’s what I have seen in my region.

    7. Tex*

      You’re looking at a narrow field within the umbrella of management consulting in operations – usually called people management, change management, or human capital management. It usually involves HR decisions and operations procedures around mergers and acquisitions and large shifts of people from one organization to another. It’s definitely not one on one coaching and you will have to start at the bottom (analyst, maybe a senior analyst). If you’re interested in coaching people on management, you’re going to need a lot more experience before you can make that shift. However, a junior position at a high end recruiting agency (at VP to C-suite levels) might be a good place to land so you learn the business of what major companies are looking for and how to evaluate people for leadership roles.

    8. anonymous for this - need career advice!!!!*

      This is late, but I’ve taken time to reflect on some of these responses and it really, really helps put things into perspective for me. Thank you all so much for contributing and sorry for the delayed “thanks”.

  14. Conversation Requesting Work from Home?*

    I am new to my job and would like to request my boss let me work from home more often, on a set schedule. I’d like once a week or once every other week. The office is small and should be flexible – but, nobody else does this regularly. Any suggestions/tips for how to approach this?

    1. RachelTW*

      I suggest start by asking your peers about work from home flexibility. Say something like, “Hey, I noticed that nobody seems to work from home regularly instead of only under special circumstances. Is there any sort of unwritten office policy about that?” They might tell you that working from home every once in a while is allowed, but people don’t get approved to do it on a regular basis.

  15. Persimmons*

    Due to some reporting changes and my long-term plans, I’ve realized that it is in my best interest to begin sharing less info than I used to about my reasons for using PTO.

    My first chance to begin implementing this plan was this week, when I had oral surgery. What was supposed to be a minor procedure blew up into a trial that left me looking like I’d been punched in the face, and resulted in several days of slurring like a drunk.

    So…better luck next time, I guess! Anyone else doing damage control this week?

    1. Chaordic One*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. I guess you’re going through a “shit happens” kind of thing.

      I started coming down with a cold on Tuesday that has been getting better, then worse, then better. Last night I woke up freezing in the middle of the night, just shaking because I had chills. I got up and got extra blankets and went back to bed, then called in sick today. I feel like my employer probably didn’t believe me, calling in a Friday. I’m just going to get a lot of rest and maybe eat some chicken soup for now.

  16. ColorMeConfused*

    Please help me interpret this email. I interviewed for a PT non-profit coordinator position. I sent a follow-up email the day after the interview and the Director responded the same day – they were part of the 4-person interview panel – with this,

    “Since we are changing the scope of the position we will need to develop the true scope of the position and structuring the position to achieve the needs of the organization and the positions supported. I appreciate the additional information related to your experience.”

    What do you think this means? I’m pretty savvy in non-profit; 20 yrs now and I’ve hired people, too but I’ll admit this one has me stumped? When did things change? Is there a position still?

    I could ask but I feel that it might be intrusive. I’m still looking for a job regardless of how this pans out.

    1. ColorMeConfused*

      Follow-up email should be ** Thank you for the interview email. I didn’t follow-up inquiring about the position.

    2. kd*

      To me, it sounds like they are putting the hiring on hold, but should probably state that clearly.

      I would ask if they are moving forward with the hiring process. I don’t feel that’s intrusive.

    3. Dr. Doll*

      That is, um, the least informative sentence ever. I think it means, we changed our minds and we’ll get back to you maybe but don’t hold your breath. You can send a bland, “Terrific, looking forward to hearing from you when you are able.”

      As Alison is always recommending, write this one off and then be pleasantly surprised if they get back to you.

      1. Tara S.*

        ^^ If it helps, I’ve gotten emails with this level of, uh, grammar, from super busy senior colleagues. I usually chalk it up to them dashing off a reply with reviewing it (sometimes it’s even text-to-speech, so super ramble-y), and just follow up later when hopefully they have more bandwidth. Dr. Doll’s response seems good your situation.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          My boss used to send me goobledygook like this from her phone, usually while she was in a cab to somewhere else. I tried to decode it if I could but usually just ended up shaking my head and checking back later :P

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You said something that made them realize that they needed to be looking at other things also when considering this position.
      So now they have to go back and think about it.

      I had a kind of similar thing in the for-profit sector. I never heard back. My take on it was there was a person or persons who were not strong decision makers and/or were very narrow-sighted. Working there would be just more of this snippet I saw at the interviewing stage.

      In short: bullet dodged!

      1. ColorMeConfused*

        So it’s me, not them (lol). I wondered if the Predictive Index that I had to take in order to interview had anything to do with it.

        When I asked how the position I was interviewing for was different than the admin assistant position, they said they were reorganizing. So there must be something in that; maybe they really didn’t know what they were looking for. As this is in the fundraising department, and they currently don’t have a director of fundraising, they may wait to hire the director who then has a role in hiring their coordinator. However they weren’t going to hire that person until next year.

    6. Jadelyn*

      They’re reevaluating the way the position works, maybe who it reports to or what team it’s part of. Probably writing a new job description. This is probably involving multiple managers or executives who have to sign-off and who may have conflicting ideas of what they want, so…I’d say yes, there’s still a position, but they’re not ready to move forward with anyone at the moment, and when they are ready they may or may not reach back out to you or they might just post fresh for the new job description.

      Either way, I’d move on and assume it’s not going to pan out.

    7. ColorMeConfused*

      Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.

      The department I was interviewing for had 3 people, but now has 1. They’re reorganizing (1) vacant position into the Coordinator role and they need to hire a Dept Director. The remaining role is filled. So it’s possible something from the interviews, or just mine, caused them to think differently about how they were going about things. It happens, I just don’t like unintelligible responses.

      It always seems the first one I apply for, after not applying for awhile, is always quirky and takes a sideways nosedive.

  17. soon-to-be-grad?*

    Does anyone have any tips for how to identify whether a job will be a good fit for your skills when you’re applying?

    I’m submitting my PhD thesis next week (eep!) which has been a long and tough process to write, and I’ve pretty much been ignoring the whole concept of “afterwards” just to be able to get it done. I have no idea what I want to do next (apart from: not scientific research), and it feels like I have a lot of skills but basically no “real world” job experience

    1. Robin Q*

      Based on your comment that you don’t want to do scientific research, I’m guessing you’re in a science PhD program. If you you should check out the myIDP website (link in reply) that’s made to ask science PhDs about their skills and what they want to do. It then suggests different career path options, including many outside of scientific research.

      2. Tara S.*

        ^+1. I know lots of PhD who parlayed their skills into working in industry without too much trouble (they had the analytical skills, if not the experience with specific industries). Depending on what you did, lot of big companies that use tech (Comcast, Google, ect.) look for people with reasoning/logic skills.

    2. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      Was in the same boat! Sure you do – analytical techniques, technical writing, lab and field techniques, your coursework.

      The way it worked out for me, I did my PhD work on invasive weeds and soil chemistry. Ended up parlaying that into natural and cultural resources management, environmental planning/NEPA, and some bits and bobs of water quality work. It’s not quite what I expected, but there’s a mostly straight line running between even undergrad and today.

    3. Scientist in the Wild*

      So I did a PhD in experimental physics and two research postdocs, before moving into a non-research job for which I basically had none of the explicit skills I needed for the field I was moving to. I chose my trajectory based on the parts of research that I found personally interesting and to which I gravitated.

      So because I enjoyed giving tours of the lab and working with our publicist when we had interesting results, I looked at outreach-involved positions. Because I have a strong-ish writing background, I looked at jobs that involved writing about science. Because I have experience organizing small-scale events, I looked for organizational jobs. And I used every volunteer project I worked on outside the lab as a plus, both on my resume and in interviews. In the end, I was hired in my current role because my science background gave me the street cred to interact with scientists on their level, while my skills and ability to communicate them to my bosses gave them the confidence that I could pick up the rest.

      It helps to have an idea of what kinds of jobs are out there, so try to see if you can find a way to network with people who have your background, but are in jobs that sound more appealing to you than sitting and turning knobs all day, and then try to figure out how your skills could be like proto-experience for some of those jobs.

    4. J.B.*

      What area? If you are in a health related field CROs are pretty big and need lots of people with data and presentation skills.

    5. Emily K*

      I left academia for a completely non-academic career.

      Basically, I was just browsing entry-level positions in the city I was hoping to relocate to that sounded potentially interesting. I came across an entry-level nonprofit marketing role that consisted mostly of providing office support to remote fundraisers and producing fundraising analytic reports–basically stuff that anyone who had ever worked with spreadsheets could do, no marketing background required.

      I will never forget my initial reaction to reading the job description. It was: “I could do that.”

      My top two priorities were getting out of grad school and getting back to the city I missed, and I was really looking for any reasonable job that would facilitate that, so I applied. I got the job, and discovered after starting that I *loved* marketing. I eventually developed a focus in digital marketing and worked my way up to a really cool, fun job.

      I always like to tell people the story because today, I can’t imagine being in any other field. But I had no idea when I applied for that first job that I would really love the work as much as I did. It just sounded like something I could do that was better than what I was doing at the time (shlogging my way through a PhD program that was making me miserable).

      1. Emily K*

        Oh, and my academic background was in sociology, in a very quantitative department, so in the interview for that first job I emphasized my analytical skills and comfort with data. In interviews since then for later jobs I’ve also always highlighted that my understanding of sociology/the social sciences primed me to understand things like choice architecture and decision science that are the foundation of data-driven marketing. Don’t expect employers to be able to make connections like that on their own–you should always spell out for them how your skills transfer even when it seems very obvious to you.

    6. The other April Ludgate*

      I don’t have tips, I just want to CONGRATULATE YOU on nearly submitting your thesis. I am close to submitting mine too (within a month or so) with what’s essentially been a part time grad school for, by now, too many years. Best of luck with everything:)

      1. soon-to-be-grad?*

        Thank you! I have to submit by Friday, but I’m down to the last bits of writing now – I can’t wait to be done. Best of luck to you for getting yours finished off!! :D

  18. k.k*

    What should I say if I’m resigning for mental health reasons? I’ve been at a job for about 4 months that turned out to be a terrible fit. The biggest issue (among others) is that it’s 100% remote and that isn’t working for me. I have social anxiety so I thought it would be great, but it’s ended up being more enabling than helpful. I’ve become very isolated since I’m not forced to leave the house. It’s made my anxiety worse and is triggering a depressive episode like I haven’t had in years. I don’t want to get into all that with my boss when I quit, and I haven’t been there long enough to say the normal reasons for leaving. They’re also in crunch time for a big project and short handed so the timing sucks, but I can’t wait any longer. Is there a good generic excuse to quit? The company is generous with sick time and leave so I’m afraid if I cite health reasons theyll try to work out something, but taking a break wouldn’t solve any of my problems.

    1. ExcelJedi*

      Can you vaguely say that the remote work isn’t working for you? I’m not sure how far you live from the office, but they may be willing to work with you on coming in a few days a week (or flying you out and having you stay local to them for a week or two while you wrap up what they need you do there).

      1. k.k*

        Luckily they don’t have a physical office, everyone is remote. So no way they could offer I have me come in.

    2. Time for a gnu name*

      You don’t have to explain anything when you quit unless you want to, so you can say as little as you wish. If I were in your shoes, I might say something about the work environment not being a good match in the long term. It’s true and there’s virtually nothing they can counter with. (Well, nothing that changes your stance, anyway.)

    3. DaniCalifornia*

      I’ve done this and couldn’t give notice and had to explain. I was vague. I told them unfortunately today was my last day and that I was dealing with an immediate health issue and this is what was necessary. And nothing more.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The less words you use the better.

      “Working remotely is not working out the way I thought it would, therefore I am resigning. My last day will be two weeks from today. Thank you for the opportunity you gave me here.”

      That’s it. Two maybe three sentences.

      If they try to offer you something to make it work out, just say, “I am sorry. That is not going to work for me. Thank you just the same.”

    5. Bea*

      Let them know due to personal reasons you are resigning. Do not go into detail. Do not mention your health.

      I hope you are doing better soon.

    6. atalanta0jess*

      You do not need to give a reason at all. “I’m going to be leaving my position. I plan to work my notice period, and for my last day to be x.”

      It’s none of their beeswax.

      2. Kathleen_A*

        It’s true that it isn’t the company’s business, but if I were in k.k.’s shoes, I would want to leave on as positive a note as possible. After all, the company hasn’t done anything wrong. Nobody has. It just didn’t work out.

        But a good employer would naturally want to know if there’s something wrong, so I think some sort of explanation would be a good idea. I like Bea’s “for personal reasons” a lot, and also Not So NewReader’s “working remotely isn’t working out.” Either of them will answer at least some of the company’s perfectly reasonable questions without violating k.k.’s privacy or encouraging even more questions.

        1. atalanta0jess*

          Yeah, I hear that.

          I guess my main point is that KK doesn’t OWE them an explanation, and that you’re allowed to quit whenever for whatever reason. But yes, not-burning-bridges is valuable.

        2. k.k*

          I think I’ll go with some combo like that. It’s a small world and while the timing of my leaving will probably singe some bridges I’d like to avoid torching them completely.

          1. atalanta0jess*

            I think you can use “some personal stuff has come up” in a way that is very non-disclosing, and also very polite. Good luck!!

    7. Aly_b*

      Remote work turning out to not be for you is a super normal reason to quit. You don’t have to and shouldn’t go into the very specific reasons it isn’t working out for you- it’s just that you had thought that working remotely would be great when you accepted the job, but have now realized that it’s not working out for you and that unfortunately you need to resign. If they’re 100% remote, they have definitely heard this before and it won’t be a huge surprise or issue. Mental health is stigmatized so I wouldn’t go into detail (and it’s more detail than they need regardless). But remote work often sucks for people so that alone should be a totally normal and accepted explanation.

    8. Lucille2*

      I think it’s appropriate to say that full time telecommuting is not an arrangement that will work for you. Your boss may press a little on this, but keep in mind, it will probably be coming from a good place and an effort to retain you. I’ve managed telecommuters and have been one. It’s definitely not for everyone. I think your manager will be relieved you came to this conclusion early and on your own rather than having to manage a difficult situation.

      On the flip side, I did have a direct report who resigned after a few months and cited anxiety as the reason. I really felt bad that I didn’t have the opportunity to try to find a way to accommodate her before she resigned. I think there was a bad manager at the time who had driven a few people away, and this person decided it was best to cut her losses and leave before becoming too entrenched. But it’s possible there wasn’t much in my power that could be done to accommodate her needs. I appreciate her honesty, but wish we could have found a solution that didn’t involve her leaving.

    9. Gumby*

      You know yourself the best, so if quitting is the answer, then it is. I’m throwing some questions out there just in case there is a way to stay.

      How much of the total problem is the working remotely aspect? If “I’ve become very isolated since I’m not forced to leave the house.” could be addressed, would the job work for you? Do you otherwise like the work? Could you set up a different structure that forced you to leave the house? Classes – either academic or recreational? Other groups that meet regularly in person? (I, personally, never exercise on my own but if I take a class I have near perfect attendance. So in order to get exercise I know I have to structure it via signing up for classes or at least showing up to enough at a gym class that the other regulars expect me. Knowing this doesn’t mean I’ve actually done it recently…)

      Again, I’m not trying to dissuade you from quitting if that is what is best for you. If that is the case, ignore me and go with the other excellent advice here.

    10. Alice*

      I don’t discount at all your reasons for needing to quit for your health so this is just a “what if” idea not criticizing or telling you what to do….Is there any chance you could stay through the big project to help out the company and leave on really good terms by working outside the home even for a few hours each day? Could you go to a bookstore or coffee shop with a laptop? Just a thought so you could have a little activity around you but if it’s not possible in your role then you should definitely do what’s best for you to stay healthy.

  19. Toxic waste*

    How do you deal with a coworker who is very competitive and very “tit for tat”? The woman that I work with always has to “out-do” me and even though she says that she “isn’t competitive”, she is! She always has to show that she is dominant.

    It’s annoying. We work together and have to interact, so unfortunately I have to deal with her. I’ve had it up to here with her shenanigans. She’s competitive both professionally and socially. I just want to be a team, but I don’t think that it will ever happen.

    Is there any way to deal with a person like this, while keeping your sanity? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

    1. Colette*

      Do you have to care that she’s competitive? How is it affecting you (other than that it’s annoying)?

      In other words, can you just note it in a “wow, that was really petty” way and not let it affect you?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      A couple ideas:
      “Yep. You won again, Jane. Congrats.”

      Or

      “Jane, we are a team, not competitors. This isn’t a competition.”

      Or

      “Jane, I see you place a high value on competing with other people. I have the toughest competition there is: I have to be better today than I was yesterday. I have to beat yesterday’s me. And that is the toughest competition I have ever seen.”
      [I used this one a couple times and in both cases it shut the person right down. Basically, this can be read as “Go compete with YOURSELF.”]

      This last one, is a bit hard and you definitely need to keep it to yourself. Look around. What you are looking for are tasks that only one person can do and then the task is done. She can’t parallel what you just did because the task is over. Realize that she is just copying you, that is all she is doing, put yourself in places where she can’t copy you. See, these people sometimes have problems with coming up with original ideas. If they can use other people’s ideas they are fine. But left to find their own ideas they struggle (not always, but often enough).

    3. Lexi kate*

      Making it a game for yourself to see what you can get crazy pants to do. I worked with a woman like this before and to stop myself and my other sane co-worker from stabbing her in the eye with a plastic spork we made it a game and would help to work her up nothing over the top. We would do things like implying I was faster and was going to get to the meeting first and watching her run across the hall and taking the stairs arriving sweaty and still out of breath when we arrived later because we stopped to get coffee. Or saying loudly I was skipping lunch to get more work done and then slipping out by crouching down so she didn’t see. It’s petty but at the time was the comedy we needed to deal with her.

      1. StellaBella*

        OK – I literally LOL’ed at your line of …eye… spork – and wow. I kind of would like to work with you, but that’s because I hate these kinds of über competitive people. I have never done competitive sports, either. I do things to challenge myself, so the other comment above of “being better than I was yesterday” is so right on. What happened to your team, might I ask?

        1. Lexi kate*

          Crazy took a management position and burned herself out working with interns. Honestly it was a little boring when she left, and we didn’t have a team goal. We still reminisce almost a year since she left of her craziness and the things we got her to do. She wasn’t a horrible person just very Dwight from the office, as a petite red head.

    4. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Oh boy, been there and done that. The best thing to do is ignore people like that. They are almost always looking for attention. Don’t give it to them. However, I will add this: Stay on top of your game as she is probably looking to show you up. Don’t give her the satisfaction.

    5. MLB*

      Unless her being competitive is affecting your job performance, I would learn to ignore it. I know it’s easier said than done, because that would annoy me too, but she just wants attention and praise. Don’t give it to her.

    6. AdminX2*

      Keep making your stories more ridiculous and see how long she keeps biting. “I taught my cat to say love you in spanish this weekend!” “I got the senator to come to my birthday last week.”

      Run with it.

    7. Lucille2*

      Is it possible to disengage from her somehow? As long as her competition affects you somehow, she’s getting the attention she needs. If you’re not working directly with her on a project or requiring her input, just leave her out of the loop. If she overhears stuff and makes snarky comments, shrug it off. It’s an annoying behavior, but giving it attention just feeds it. Ignoring it will eventually disarm her.

  20. Elisabeth*

    It is ALWAYS freezing in my office. Love my new job, love the location, beautiful building, and it is FREEZING ALWAYS.

    Any tips on how to handle this? Most buildings these days have serious regulations about space heaters and a lightweight cardigan is NOT doing the job. Currently, I’ve hidden my Uggs under my desk and keep the ugliest leopard print fleece at my desk because I’m desperate. But I’d really like to look a little but more professional!

    1. Murphy*

      I feel you. I keep a hoodie and fingerless gloves at my desk (and have broken out both in the middle of summer). Obviously the hoodie doesn’t look professional, but I’m in a fairly casual office so as long as I don’t have a big meeting, I can get away with it.

      Can you use a heavier winter-weight cardigan? I’ve considered this, but it won’t necessarily go with everything, which is why I haven’t started keeping one at my desk.

      1. Doug Judy*

        Finger-less gloves helped a lot when I was in FreezingOffice. Like others I had a small blanket I kept on my legs, and a really unflattering, but very warm heavier cardigan for those days that got super cold.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      I know this pain. I have a fleece blanket that I wear on my lap sometimes (hidden beneath my desk).

      Honestly, I’d invest in some nicer fleeces and sweaters, and look up USB hand warmers. I’ve never been successful trying to get the temperature higher in an office.

    3. Nita*

      I’ve got a heavy suit jacket that seems to help. Sometimes I’ll just bring it to the office and leave it there. And sometimes I give up on looking professional, and grab an oversized fleece because I’m tired of being freezing all the time. Funny, but it’s only cold right in my office. Other parts of the building are fine. I didn’t get around to it this summer, but at some point I’ll mention to HR that the AC needs re-balancing… they can pass the info along to building management.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      I use a heating pad. It turns itself off after a 2 hour time span, and I can just sit with it in my lap and alternate hands (admittedly, my mouse hand generally suffers more).

      1. Deryn*

        I did the heating pad in the lap too! It works particularly well if you can lay a sweater/scarf/blanket/whatever over it and trap the heat inside.

        1. SarahKay*

          Just about to say that. I have a heated mouse and I love it so much. It was expensive for a mouse at £25 (approx $32) but oh-so-worth it!
          I also have a microwavable ‘hot-water bottle’ – it’s actually grains in a fabric bag about 10″ x 7″ that I heat and have on my lap and that makes a big difference to my overall warmth.

      3. Tara S.*

        ^This (I use mine for cramps, but it helps generally). Also, I bought my own heater for under my desk, and no one has brought it up. Sometimes you get push back, but I went for “ask forgiveness, not permission” with that particular problem.

    5. CTT*

      Have you checked out the vent set-up around your office? I was always freezing in my old office until I realized there was one vent in my office and another directly outside the door. Just closing my door halfway helped a ton.

      1. Nanc*

        Second checking the vent situation! I was in an office nearly under the vent and during January and February the AC would suddenly blast on. Turns out the thermostat was getting hit directly by sun at that time of year and thinking it was August! The solution was a new vent cover that could be closed part way and taping a piece of paper over the very expensive Smart Thermostat (oh technology!).

    6. Book Badger*

      How dressy is your office? (And how hot is the weather when you’re not indoors?) If it’s cool enough outside that you can get away with it, I find layering tights – and in deep winter, fleece-lined tights – under skirts or even under pants is useful. You can also do plain long-sleeved tees under a heavier cardigan. My go-to is Walmart’s Faded Glory tees because they’re simple and dirt cheap.

      Also, fancy scarves are a great way of looking stylish while also keeping your neck warm until it’s cold enough outside that you can wear turtlenecks.

    7. Extra Vitamins*

      I have a whole drawer full of cold-office gear at work. I finally bought a wool poncho. I wear both a sweater and the poncho, and it looks reasonable.

    8. Tara S.*

      Being cold is the only reason I wore a lab coat at my research jobs. Didn’t need protection, I was just super cold! Also why I wore welding coats in the shop when not welding.

    9. Elisabeth*

      Thank you all! If nothing else, at least I don’t feel alone anymore!

      My office is a weird blend of casual and business casual. Some people show up in hoodies and jeans and some people wear a tie. Small offices can have some real quirks sometimes. So I can get away with my fleece, it just doesn’t match my overall aesthetic very well.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        If you can swing it. I suggest cashmere (you can find some good deals if you have time to look around online).

        I’ve become a wool snob… wool dress socks, wool or wool/cashmere blend sweaters, wool or silk under layers. It took awhile but I realized that acrylic or synthetic sweaters and cotton blend socks just do not cut it. Unfortunately that is about 99% of what you find in stores today for women’s work clothes.

        A couple of places to try for warm nice looking sweaters – woolovers dot com, soft surroundings dot com (I once scored 100% cashmere sweaters for $35 a piece on clearance), and winter silks dot com

        I think the biggest change was from the socks (darn tough and smart wool) I generally wear mary janes with long pants, so I’m ok with the sock/dress shoe combination that sometimes peaks out. But my biggest problem came from crappy carpet layed over concrete. It would suck the warmth out of my body from my feet. Once I got a small rug and started wearing wool and wool blend socks, things became a lot more comfortable.

      2. Could be Anyone*

        Find a cuter fleece! Now that it’s pumpkin spice season, there are tons of heavy cardigans/ponchos/jackets in stores that are fine for most offices – especially if yours is more casual. I specifically buy cardigans (and blazers for when I need to suddenly be professional) of different weights and keep them in my office.

      3. Techworker*

        Also potentially worth bringing it up with management? My company adjusted the aircon settings after they found all the women were constantly freezing..

    10. CheeryO*

      I feel you. I use my heated mouse and wear a heavy cardigan year-round. If you get them in a few neutral colors without a lot of texture, they should more or less work with whatever you normally wear. Once in a while someone (almost always a dude) will say something snarky about me being bundled up on an 85 degree day, but whatever.

    11. Achoo!*

      The building should have some kind of tenant handbook that should tell you what’s allowed heater-wise. Anything that you’re not sure would be okay with building management, unplug and put in a locked drawer at the end of the day if you can. If they’re super strict (no electric heating pads/blankets), microwavable heating pads are a-mazing.

    12. Namast'ay in Bed*

      The best thing I’ve ever done to combat a freezing office is to get a heating pad and clip it to the back of my chair (so it sits between you and the chair, not behind the chair, in case that wasn’t obvious). A heating pad is low wattage enough that there’s no worries about fire hazards, they’re inexpensive (I got mine from the drugstore for like $20 tops), and you’d be amazed at what a difference it makes having heat from your shoulders to your lower back (def get a long one, not a square one)!

    13. peachie*

      If you can find those sticky heat patches that can go directly on your skin (not all of them can, ask me how I know that), they’re great for chilly days! I initially used them sometimes for bad cramps, but the keeping-your-core-warm was a nice side effect, so I sometimes used them just for heat on particularly cold office days.

      1. Jaid_Diah*

        I love Therma-Care patches. Drugstores have their own off brands, but not all of them stick as well to the skin. Be careful though, because sometimes the skin can get irritated by the glue or excess heat!

    14. twig*

      blanket, finger-less gloves, work sweater, a scarf or shawl of some sort can be handy too. One of my coworkers used to have an electric throw blanket that she used year-round.

      Does your office actually regulate space heaters? look into this –also ask around about what others do.

      Technically, space heaters aren’t allowed in our building, but the HVAC is so poorly regulated that several of us have them anyway. Our building manager has looked right at my heater and ignored it.

    15. ZuZu*

      Ugh my office is the same way! It drives me crazy. I’m also pretty new, so I don’t want to be seen lugging in a space heater. Scarves are my best defense. I love big pashminas because I can also use them as a wrap or lap blanket. I also make sure I get up and walk around, as the longer I sit still the colder I get.

    16. Windward*

      A couple things I’ve done:
      Cashmere cardigans are your friend. Lightweight, look more polished than most, remarkably warm for the weight, & I’ve been been getting them from thrift shops for an average of $5. I keep one in a desk drawer. I have heavier wool cardigans to use when the cashmere isn’t enough.
      Wool or silk shawls & scarves can help, too.
      Leg warmers can make a huge difference. Under slacks, or long ones that can look like tights.
      Pet warming pads. Got them for the cats, & borrowed one for work. These are the kind that reflect your heat back to you, with a fuzzy surface. I sit on it, put it in my lap, or keep my stocking feet on it. Generally larger than a heating pad, & doesn’t need to be plugged in.
      Office temperatures & how people handle them can be just crazy

    19. Bea*

      Have you actually been told no space heaters or are you assuming?

      We all have space heaters and strict protocol for checking for any left on when closing the office at night.

    20. MLB*

      I’m always cold so I totally get it. In addition to what others are saying, look into thermals that you wear under your clothes. They’re not the old fashioned waffle thermals anymore. I got a pair at Target – they fit tightly to your body and add an extra layer of warmth.

      I keep a sweater on my chair, slippers, a blanket and USB fingerless gloves at my desk. I have used one or all at some point or another, both in the summer and winter. My boss makes fun of me because she’s always hot.

      1. Clare*

        I started a new job recently and this building is freezing cold. So I’ve taken to drinking hot water pretty much all day long. I can’t drink too much of other hot beverages (coffee, tea), I’d probably have a heart attack with all that caffeine! But hot water keeps my hands warm and drinking it really does warm me up.

    22. Chaordic One*

      I’ve seen where you can buy a heated keyboard and a heated mouse. You can google it. I don’t have any experience with such things, but they sound like they’d be a godsend in a situation like you’re describing.

    23. Yetanotherjennifer*

      If you can afford it, get some silk long underwear. It’s really thin and lightweight and you’ll never notice it under your clothes. Outfitters like REI will carry it. I also like the brand Cuddleduds for synthetic. They have a tank top that has a scoop neck on one side and a V on the other so it hides under most tops. They also have a big fleece hooded sweater that is really ugly but so comfortable. I work from home and wear mine all the time.

    24. So Tired Always*

      If you have your own office or sit in a relatively remote area, you might be able to ask the facilities team in your building to shut any vents near you. That could help with drafts. Similarly, if you sit near a window, cold air could be coming in that way (happened with me in an old office). Maybe if you have an old scarf or blanket you’d otherwise get rid of, you can sort of line it up across the bottom of the window to prevent drafts.

    25. Smarty Boots*

      Get a space heater that turns off if it’s tipped over, keep it under the desk and out of sight when you’re in the office and put it away in a file cabinet (somewhere completely hidden and unplugged).

      The fire marshal spoke quite sternly to us and banned space heaters completely, and we all promised to take our space heaters home. And each space heater has its own file cabinet home…

    26. Sarah G*

      I have an “electric warming throw,” which is just a small throw-sized electric blanket. I use it on my lap or sometime drape it over my chair and sit on it. It has auto shut-off after a certain amount of time. The exact one I bought (about $20) isn’t made any more, but it looks like you can still get something equivalent in the $20-$30 range if you shop around online.

    27. only acting normal*

      I have some beautiful wool shawls that keep me warm and still look smart. Also a pashmina if a plainer style is your thing.
      I also have fingerless gloves, lots of themal underwear, and a hot-water-bottle for moments of real desperation (heaters and plug-in heat pads are not allowed).

    28. Hamburke*

      My office got a new AC. Its a small office (3 of us) and we can change the thermostat if we want but as an office, we’ve decided 72 is Arctic and 73 doesn’t trip the AC enough so it’s humid… We’ve gone with 72 and sweaters.

      The person who had my desk last had a heating pad with an auto-off that she put on the chair.

      On a positive note, I love sweater season and broke out a sweater I bought last winter that was backordered and didn’t arrive until April!

    29. ronda*

      I am more likely to be hot.

      have you tried exercise. If I am heating up myself that way I usually stay hot for a while.
      go up and down the stairs a few times.

      Is everyone cold? If so, getting the system fixed is neccassary.

  21. Lauren*

    I mentioned this before: I work with another woman, “Vera”. It’s just the two if us in our department. There’s another woman, “Roxie” that comes in from another branch a couple times during the week. Vera and Roxie worked together at the other branch, but then Vera was moved.

    Whenever I take time off, Vera gets mad. She’s the type to never take any time off, unless it’s for a 1-2 week vacation and she’s rarely out sick.

    I prefer to take a long weekend or a couple days here and there. Vera gets mad and even though she doesn’t say anything about it, I feel the tension.

    My boss usually approves time off and is pretty chill about it, but I don’t like how Vera acts when I return from a long weekend. Roxie recently was out 2 days in a week, yet Vera said nothing. Maybe she used to and since I’m here, she’s taking things out on me. I just don’t understand why Vera acts like this towards me.

    Am I overthinking things here or is there a problem? What should I do/say? Can I tell Vera to take it up with the boss if she has a problem or just ignore it?

    1. Elisabeth*

      Can you explain how you know she’s mad about it? If you take time off does Vera have to “pick up your slack”? I.e., double duty for the days you’re out?

    2. MLB*

      Confront her about it. If she’s rude or cold to you after taking time off, call her on it. “Is there something I’ve done to upset you?” If she says no, say “I’ve noticed that when I come back from taking time off, you treat me differently, as if you’re upset with me.” Maybe that will open the door for her to vent her frustrations. If she’s upset because she has to do your work while you’re out, suggest she speak to the boss, because if your boss is approving your time, that’s a problem for them to solve. If she says nothing, let it go, and when it happens next time, talk to your boss about it. You’re not doing anything wrong. It’s not your problem that your co-worker doesn’t take time off.

  22. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Not looking for advice as much as some humorous takes on this situation.

    There is a woman on my floor who talks to herself in the bathroom. It’s weird AF. You’re sitting there doing your business and all of a sudden, you hear this muttering. It’s especially creepy when there’s hardly anyone in there and it’s super quiet.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        That’s the thing – I have no idea. It’s just indistinct muttering. But it’s all the time.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would be so tempted to try to participate in the “conversation.”

      “Oh, I totally agree, Susan!”
      “What’s that, Susan? I missed the last part of what you said.”

    4. Queen of the File*

      YES I have one of those too!! It’s sort of… self-coaching? I’m SO curious about whether or not she realizes she’s doing it.

    6. Bea*

      Omfg I talk to myself frequently but this is OTT even for me lol. I stop myself from doing so in public places for fear of others hearing.

    7. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      We have one those! It’s just one of many “quirks” she has (she’s a close talker and also says blatantly rude things out of nowhere, even to upper management), and it’s definitely unsettling if you don’t know she’s in the next stall.

    9. On Fire*

      Ha! I was in the restroom once, and a woman came in. A moment later I heard her talking … and then making sounds. I seriously thought she was having phone sex. I finished my business as fast as I could, but she came out of the stall while I was washing my hands. No phone in sight. Still have no idea what was going on (and really don’t want to), but to this day it’s one of my most “EWWWWWWWW” moments from that job.

    10. Oh dear.*

      Do you work on my floor??? We have one of these, too. Except she doesn’t only talk to herself in the bathroom; she talks to herself everywhere.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        LOL it’s entirely possible. I have no idea if she does this other places. She works on the other side of the floor, so I only ever run into her in the bathroom.

    11. AdminX2*

      This may the thing keeping that person sane rather than ripping someone’s head off the next time they ask her to get coffee. Or they may indeed have some atypical processing and they know the bathroom is the only semi private place they can work that out in when in public.

    12. Marion Ravenwood*

      If you were in the UK I’d ask if you worked with me, because I have to admit I’ve done this before. I talk to myself occasionally anyway, and whilst I try not to do it at work occasionally a word or two will slip out, and it has happened in the ladies’ more than once. Believe me when I say that when you realise you’ve done it (even accidentally) it’s mortifying, and especially if you think someone overheard!

    13. Bluebell*

      When I first moved to my current workplace it was a huge adjustment that we had clients who would take phone calls in the bathroom stalls, often in a foreign language. Now I’m just used to it.

    14. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      My husband does something like this, though it’s usually while he’s in the shower. If he’s thinking over a problem at work, especially what he wishes he could say to someone, he’ll often have an imaginary conversation, out loud. Sometimes he even does multiple voices!

    15. Jaid_Diah*

      One lady at work has a multiple personality thing and I’ve heard her communicating with her “others”, occasionally. She seems a little slow sometimes, but I figure she’s run by committee and that’s gotta have an impact.

    3. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      I’m really glad they disclosed the firm name. However, now everybody knows who got 30k.
      (BTW, the video was in auto play. I was definitely not ready)

  24. Not My Usual Name*

    I’d appreciate some advice on getting over experiences working with a bad boss.

    At my last job we had a change of management. My original boss who I got on great with left and the guy who replaced him hated me. One thing he would do is write me up for asking questions and make me repeat the “obvious question” at our standup along with how long I’d worked there.

    I left this situation a while ago but I still feel a lot of pressure when I have to ask for something. I worry about being thought of as dumb or getting in trouble for asking an obvious question. I can tell this attitude holds me back at work, so what can I do? Thanks!

    1. Queen of the File*

      I’m so sorry you went through that–it sounds humiliating and awful.

      What’s your current situation like? I felt a lot of pressure relieved when I had a short and candid conversation with my boss that I was “resetting” what was normal after a tough experience and asked for some feedback (do I ask an appropriate amount of questions, would you feel comfortable telling me if you were unhappy with my work, etc.). My new boss was really great. I worked hard to trust what she told me and not take my anxiety about the little stuff too seriously.

      1. Not My Usual Name*

        The guys I work with now are great, and are pleased with my work so far. Honestly, in most regards this job is pretty close to perfect — which ironically makes me worried that I might mess up!

        I know that my old boss at my bad job specifically didn’t like me. He used to be at the same level I was, but we never got along. Our boss left and he got promoted because he had seniority, then he immediately switched my responsibilities with someone else and did the “getting me in trouble for asking questions” thing. It sucked, and trust me, I don’t need any reassurance that he was a bad boss and I didn’t do anything wrong.

        Honestly I glossed over it with my boss in the interview — I’d been at that job for over 3 years with the last 8 months or so working for the awful boss. I have a bad feeling that I can’t really put into words about bringing this up with my current boss. It feels like it could change his impression of me, which is really good right now. I think I should try to power through this nervousness until it goes away, or maybe speak with a therapist.

    2. Bea*

      How long is “awhile ago”? It took me almost six months to shake my one bad boss.

      The key is validation. You had a good boss who wasn’t a jerkwad like that dude. He was a bully. He was damaged and bad. You are his victim. You deserve respect and shouldn’t be fearful when asking questions.

      Remind yourself healthy happy good bosses want you to ask questions. Remember that your boss now doesn’t respond like a jerk when you ask a question. Repeat over and over “it was Bezelzabub’s issue. Not mine.”

      And truly if you can afford it, seek out a counselor for assistance. It’s worth a few therapy sessions to get back from the damage that d*ck did to you.

      1. Not My Usual Name*

        I’ve been at this job about four months. I worked for the crappy boss for about the last year of my last stint, which was 3 years total.

        I don’t want to paint myself as a victim, but the old bad boss and I never got along. When I started at that company, we were at the same level. He never liked me and would do weird passive aggressive things like invite the rest of the team out for his birthday but not me. Our boss left, and since he was senior he was promoted to become my new manager.

        Right after that he started abusing the process to try and get me fired. He changed my job duties completely (imagine it was a construction company and I was a plumber; then he changed me to working as an electrician), and proceeded to write me up for asking questions and being slow at my new duties. It was a huge company so the process took a long time, and I found a new job before he had enough to fire me over.

        For all I know, he might have had legitimate complaints with me, but I don’t worry about that because he didn’t tell me. No use worrying about something that you have no evidence it exists.

    3. Ruth (UK)*

      I worked for a couple years in fast food (shouty bosses) and then for almost 4 years in a call centre where I had an awful boss. He sounds a bit like yours and among the things he did, he’d get annoyed by almost any question. He micromanaged everything and had to control everything to the point where he’d track how many post its people were using per day, etc. He also would make sexist and racist comments on occasion (like saying “she’s obviously on her period” if he’d had a phone conversation with a woman that hadn’t gone to his liking)

      As of 10 months ago, I have a new job and a new boss who I think is great. I think it takes times to gradually recover from a bad boss and I think I still have things held over from my previous experiences.

      I think it helps to try and remind yourself to think consciously, when you feel anxious about something, if it’s because of your previous boss or whether you truly think you’ll get a bad reaction from you current boss.

      When I started my current job, for a while I didn’t really discuss my old job especially because I didn’t want to be saying negative things about it and my old boss before my current colleagues and boss knew me very well. However, more recently, I’ve discussed it and shared a few specific things that happened there (not long stories in detail or anything), and given a bit of context to why certain things have made me nervous or anxious etc now. I think that gave me a bit of closure and helped me move passed it.

      I think discussing what they did that was bad helps see that the problem was them not you so you’re more able to see what it’s ok to do the thing they didn’t like (in your case, ask questions)

    4. Not So NewReader*

      FWIW, I always thought that if the people who were under my supervision had basic questions that meant I was not doing my job of explaining things.

      If that one doesn’t resonate, I have another one: I have worked with people for years who did not know our telephone number or street address. Sometimes stuff gets past people for whatever reason. Maybe they don’t use the information or maybe the question never came up before. The employees I worried about the most were the ones who did NOT ask questions. I made it pretty clear that they should ask each other if they did not want to ask me, it was more important that they just ask.
      I now have a boss who greets me with, “What are the questions today?” We have been doing this for 6 years. The last employee did not ask questions. The nature of our work is you have to ask questions. Your former boss did not know how to lead people.

    5. Lucille2*

      My take is if there are no questions, then you have a group of people who are afraid to speak up for some reason. In a training environment, it means you’ve lost your audience. In a management setting, it means people don’t feel safe to speak up. They have either felt punished for asking or the answer has been “no” so many times that no one bothers asking anymore. I’ve worked in that environment before. I had a direct report literally tell me he was so relieved he could ask me a question and not fear the response would be, “I went over that in your new hire training. I’m not going to tell you again.” That was a common response from his previous manager.

      Even intelligent, high performing employees miss seemingly basic stuff and have dumb questions occasionally. If people don’t feel safe enough to ask and instead just make assumptions, things start to crumble from there.

  25. Kramerica Industries*

    A few months ago, my former manager (Jill) sent out a detailed email and guide about our teapot making process. In her email, she said that it was to reinforce consistency and accuracy, which is fair. However, upon receiving the email, 6/8 members of my team talked about how they were upset because they thought that it meant that there were flaws in their work and that they thought Jill should’ve brought this up at a face-to-face team meeting instead of being passive-aggressive. I’ve been on the team the longest. 5 of my colleagues have been here for less than 6 months, so I think that our team still lacks a good rhythm of communication.

    I ended up telling Jill about this reaction from myself and my colleagues, hoping to offer some insight into this new team rhythm. I said that 6/8 team members had a negative reaction and that I thought that it would be better that next time, updates like this should be delivered in person to avoid confusion or negative connotations. Jill said that it wasn’t her intention to offend or imply that people were not doing their job properly, but that she can’t help how people react to things.

    Then I asked if this was the type of thing I should be bringing up. Generally, I’m concerned about team morale because these newer colleagues seem very frustrated that there is little training and Jill is remote, so she’s not often available for questions. Anyway, Jill’s response was “I don’t think it’s as bad as you think it is…I think your negativity is clouding your perception”.

    Am I overacting to this? I understand her rationale, but I thought it was such a disengaging thing to say to an employee. Our team was restructured and I currently report into the same manager as Jill. Our current manager is super keen on people skills, so I’m wondering if I should mention that Jill’s response turned me off from going to her about other issues. No way would I want to bring up her lack of availability if she’s going to call me out for being overly negative again.

    1. Myrin*

      That did not at all go where I expected it to go!

      I think it’s quite the strange reaction for a remote and often unavailable manager to react to feedback by a seasoned employee about going-ons in the office with “I don’t think it’s as bad as you think it is”.
      The “negativity” comment is also quite strange, unless you’re known for being a downer, which it doesn’t sound like?

      (FWIW, I personally think that the original situation described here is one of the few where such a general email to everyone is indeed warranted. With five new-ish coworkers, I can imagine she saw some general inconsistency in the makings of the teapots which she felt could be addressed all at once, and I actually think a detailed written guide is very good for that kind of thing. But it seems the situation has evolved beyond that by now.)

    2. Tara S.*

      You tried to help, giving her useful information, and got shot down. No need to do any more (although I’m sorry about your team morale!).

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I agree with you that she negated what you said.

      It could be that she was trying to say, “I am not angry with anyone, no one is in trouble.”

      But, yeah, she could have done a bit better. The one thing I would have suggested to her is that she send out a preliminary email or have a brief meeting where she says, “I am going to review our processes and set some guidelines for everyone. No one is in trouble. We are all doing things we can beef up a little bit. For myself, I can make sure that you guys know the guidelines, so you know what is expected. This is starting at square one, we look at what is needed and see what it takes for us to get there. Again, no one is in trouble. We are just going to make sure we are doing stuff correctly.”

      I would expect something like this you describe here from a person who feels they are pulled in too many directions and have too much on their plate. If she had a bit more time to think it through she probably would have done a better job.

      As far as your reporting, you are doing a third party report. I understand your concern, I have been there. But it never seems to fail that if I intervene on the behalf of others, while others remain silent, this type of thing happens. I’d get blown off or I’d get a lecture or something. I would recommend telling people who complain to you about the boss’ email or whatever that you tell them to go talk to the boss themselves. When we complain on the behalf of others, somehow it just seems to go poorly.

    4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Is Jill no longer the manager of the group? Or was she managing the group at the time, and now you have a new manager you are not sure if you should give the same type of feedback to? Is the new manager remote too?

      I guess 2 of my general rules apply in this situation.

      #1- Don’t assign the actions of one person to another. Meaning that Jill and your current boss are two different people, the fact they both hold/held the position of your manager is usually about as relevant as two strangers both wearing green socks. I swear I hold a record somewhere for the number of bosses I’ve had. If I were to stop doing things that one of them found annoying or wrong with all of them, I’d probably have to stop interacting with them at all, there wouldn’t be anything left!

      #2- Whenever you get a new boss, spend some time getting to know how they want to operate with you. Ask them “Hey I know it’s sometimes hard to get the temperature and mood of a group when you don’t work with them every day. Did you want me to mention when I notice something out of the ordinary?”

      In #2, notice I said out of the ordinary, both good and bad. I’m not saying you do or did this, but sometimes it can be a bit umm negative to only bring up the bad things. Offer to share some of the funny or good things too. “blah work stuff blah blah… oh and Wakeen is in a really great mood today because his Chia Pet finally sprouted… blah more work stuff…blah… Hermione has seemed quiet all week, not her usual self”

  26. Sussan W*

    So I need help fleshing out a “great idea” (my boss’s words) that I had this week that may or may not be industry specific (I hope asking industry specific questions is OK).

    Context is that my company switched over to a new tax software this summer. Lots of time and money and time invested in this.

    After 3 rounds of training, plus constant drilling in to the team to practice practice practice, I came up with the idea of doing another round for reviewers only. I got warm reception from others and my boss said it was a great idea.

    Questions–

    1. I’m discussing this briefly w my boss in a 1 on 1 soon. I need to have something more detailed than “I thought it’d be a good idea for reviewers to be on the same page.”

    2. First meeting with them is after next week, so I have about 1 full week to develop something more detailed/substantial.

    So I guess question is…TF do I do? I’ve never “led” a thing before. I ran it by others before going to my boss with it, but there’s a few managers who love to throw on the snark and “joke” around. So I’m a little nervous about that but hopefully I can shut that down.

    For those who were in this position (tax accountants/reviewing tax returns) what are some of the things you feel that you and your peers should know when reviewing returns on a new software?

    I apologize if this is too vague. I’m also on a FB group for Tax professionals but I’ve found them to be pretty condescending and rude as well so very apprehensive about asking there.

    1. Lucky*

      Do you mean, additional training/refresh training on the software, specific to the functions of the software that the reviewers use? This may help.
      I was the lead/product owner for the roll out of a software system serving my department, but used by multiple people in other departments. Some people need to use it all the time, some only occasionally, so after a year, users had wildly different levels of comfort. So, first I sent out a survey (Survey Monkey, super easy to use) with questions about what people liked/disliked in the system, any functions in the old paper-driven process that were missing in the software, and any what additional training users wanted. Overwhelmingly positive responses, with two types of requests for training – refresh of the overall process and specific training on the reporting function. Rolled out that training over a few weeks, and got great feedback.

    2. Icontroltherobots*

      1) Which system did you switch to?
      2) That sounds like a sucky FB group – me and my tax friends are much nicer
      3) Once we know what system, maybe either myself or nervous accountant have used it before and can give specific advice.

      My advice for all reviewers is “knowing when things are messed up training” Are you e-filing these returns? Are there diagnostics? Do you have a best practice for getting information into the system? Can you check for overrides?

      My experience is typically that people who suck at systems are going to override where they’re not supposed to, to get the form to “look right” this will cause issues with consolidation and state returns.

    3. Notthemomma*

      I haven’t worked with tax return specific software, but in training other software, I found people don’t know *how* to test without parameters.
      If possible, take returns from years past with a variety of scenarios (filing type, schedules, etc) and have people reproduce them. Once done, they should highlight differences and note them, as well as write out what they saw, issues, what they like, differences, etc. this then needs to be handed in to you by xx date. Each person should do minimum of xxx with different ones which you assign and manager is responsible as a performance review if they don’t. I put in the performance but as your company is paying a lot of money for this software and not testing as instructed is setting the company up for failure.

    4. Lizabet*

      I review files and the things we as a group try to coordinate on are getting everybody doing things the same way.

      We have a whole manual for completing returns but reviewers also meet regularly during tax time to share what things people typically miss, so that we can be on the look out for it and to communicate it to preparers.

      We also try to communicate our own best practices as we develop them.

      If the software is new I would suggest someone go through and do some “test” files to see where the “trip ups” are or to highlight the differences in the old and new software. Then schedule meetings a week or two apart for a month or two when the software goes live so that there can be good sharing.

      Also the software company might be able to give some good advice about the transition.

    5. ronda*

      I am uncertain if there is a specific review process you all have (or the software has), or if you will be presenting your review process and others might have different ideas.

      So maybe position it as a pilot session and you want to get feedback on the content to make sure it covers everything and is accurate.

      And if it is a process…. maybe have regular checkin meetings to find out if the process works and if there are any changes needed to it.

  27. Anon anony*

    Does anyone work in a place where some people talk to you only if the boss is around? If the boss isn’t around, they act differently?

        1. Rat in the Sugar*

          Do they chit-chat with other people? I can think of a few reasons why they might act like that:

          1. They’re afraid of getting “caught” in a personal conversation at work, so they only chat when it’s the boss initiating.
          2. They’re super-awkward (possibly just around you) and have trouble making small talk without a third person there as a conversational buffer to fill the silence. I am an awkward person who has given someone this weird semi-silent treatment to try to prevent myself from annoying them by putting my foot in my mouth, only to discover later that I just made them think I didn’t like them. How…awkward.
          3. They’re a “work is for work” person who would rather not chat at all, and only puts in the effort when the boss is there to see them being friendly.
          4. They just don’t like you.

          In any of these cases it would be all about them, not you. I’m not sure what you could do about it; I don’t think you’d have much luck actually bringing it up to the coworker. Is there a way that you can concentrate on your own routines/behaviors so you don’t notice the silence as much? Listening to music or podcasts, or making it a regular plan to go to the breakroom at certain times to socialize with others so you don’t feel isolated, etc.

    2. Mimmy*

      I think I’ve had that happen in a job I had way back. I had a coworker who I don’t think liked me very much and was pretty cold most times. However, when our supervisor was nearby, she would actually answer my questions!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I worked with two people at different times.
      The first one was the worst. She did not talk to me ever and she did not talk to the customers. She had NO sales for her entire shift and she did not help me close. The boss (a woman) blamed me, until the boss tried working with her. The woman was fired that night.
      The second one was decades later. She was old enough to know better. She would not talk to me period. I could yell fire and she would have ignored me. She talked to others but she was loud and sometimes disgusting in her talk. So I guess not a huge loss for me.

      In both cases, I just decided to pretend I was working alone. This worked out well because I had things set up the way I needed them to be set up. As the months rolled by I just got used to it.

      This may be who your cohort is, she just talks when the boss is around. OR you might decide one day to say, “Hey pretend the boss is around and talk to me. I hate the silence.” Many times people like this leave the job, the problem is not with their cohort, their actual problem is they hate their job.

    5. Lehigh*

      Is it possible they’re just quiet? For instance, if you work side-by-side but the boss is usually in her own office, they could feel like when the boss drops by it’s chat time but when it’s just the two of you it’s work time.

  28. Nervous Accountant*

    It’s Friday, it’s a beautiful day. In a few hours I’m gonna be on a boat with my coworkers, free flowing booze, free food, my boss is out for the day aaaaaand NEW GUY IS GONE. I’m seeing my favorite singer live tomorrow, and its’ a beautiful glorious day. Life’s good.

  29. Kat Em*

    Just got an email inviting me to a third in-person interview. This one will involve an hour-long practical test/demonstration of what I freely admitted was my weakest area when it came to the job requirements. Which totally makes sense! They want to see if I can at least function at a basic level to ensure that I’m teachable, knowing that my skills regarding other parts of the job are totally on point.

    I know it’s not an audition, it’s about determining fit, and so I shouldn’t be nervous. And yet I totally am. I don’t want to be embarrassed in front of people I respect.

  30. Killer Tomato*

    What do you do if you don’t have many references? I’ve only worked for two companies in my adult life and can’t use anyone from my current job since people have been fired in the past for getting caught job searching. I have limited work interaction with the other employees here and wouldn’t know whom to trust if I wanted to try asking someone to vouch for me. I’ve only ever worked for small companies directly for the owners so there aren’t any former managers or fellow employees who have since left that I could use. That leaves me with the husband and wife owners of the first company I worked for but I left there 13 years ago and my skills have expanded since then, so I’m not sure how relevant their comments might be. They won’t be able to attest to most of the activities and skills listed on my resume. Other than them, I have no one. How can I handle this when job searching? I’ll admit this issue has me feeling stuck at this job because I have no idea how to work around it.

    1. Time for a gnu name*

      Ooh, that is tricky. You already countered the first suggestion I was going to make (former supervisors who left your CurrentJob). Do you have any relevant volunteer experience, and if so, is there someone there who would be a reference? Do you have any clients you work with enough that they could speak to your abilities (even if only specifically as to what you’ve provided to/for them)?

      1. Killer Tomato*

        The industry we work in is such a close-knit one that I worry word would get back to my boss if I tried that. He’s got close relationships with a lot of the administrators so I worry that if I contacted one of their administrative assistants it would get back to my boss.

        I’ve tried to brainstorm all sorts of ideas and can’t come up with anything! I really feel like I’ll be stuck at this job unless I decide to move out of state and have a legitimate reason (in my boss’s eye) for leaving this job.

        1. Time for a gnu name*

          I can totally relate – I’m in a close-knit industry, too, and have been here for 15+ years. The fear of word getting back to my employer is one of the reasons I’ve never even tried to get another job in this industry. That’s a tough position to be in. I hope you can figure a way around it!

      2. Killer Tomato*

        Oh, and no volunteering, alas. Perhaps that’s something I should look into but volunteering options in my immediate area were rather limited last time I checked. Thanks for that suggestion!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Most of my references come from volunteering. I have MIA bosses, they left and went on with their lives. Imagine that.

          Keep your eyes open. You may notice that Sue from X company got a new job at Y company. Perhaps you are comfortable enough with Sue to ask her what she did for references. Usually in places where job hunting is a secret there is a whole underground network of people who vouch for each other. And it’s pretty well hidden, so it’s up to you to find at least one person who can lead you to other people who keep their mouths shut. I’d start by looking for someone who made the jump to a new job and asking them how they handled it.

          Understand, that you become part of this covert stuff and your turn will come up where you will need to be a reference for someone. You pay it forward.

    2. Lauren R*

      I have a similar issue but kind of different. I’ve had 4 employers in my adult life, one of them is my current employer, and 2 of my other 3 bosses have since passed away. Since they were each the sole partner at their respective small law firms, their offices stopped existing when they did. I’m in the last rounds of interviews with a big corporation that will definitely want to verify my employment and I don’t know how to approach this. It’s kind of a sad awkward thing to bring up during the on boarding process.

      1. Killer Tomato*

        What a sad situation! I think if you explain it as you did here, and then ask if they’d accept any other type of reference (personal reference, perhaps) they should understand. Good luck with your interviews!

      2. KayEss*

        If it’s just about verifying that you were actually employed there, maybe tax-related paperwork will suffice?

    3. Susan*

      I would think that references would come late in the conversation, so I wonder if there is a way to ask that to the company that you are interviewing with? Basically outlining something similar to the above, and asking if there are other sources of reference that they would accept?

      1. Doug Judy*

        Yes this. If you have been at Current Job for 13 years, you could frame it “I obviously am hesitant to give anyone at my current job as a reference because I cannot let them know I am looking. My other employer was over 13 years ago, and I would be happy to give you their contact information, but since it has been a long time, they cannot attest to my current skills. Is there another type of reference I could provide?”

        Additionally, are there any former coworkers you are still in touch with? They could be an acceptable reference too.

        1. Killer Tomato*

          Honestly, I feel like I’m in such a weird situation. No former coworkers I could use. My first job was just me, our marketing guy (whose work never interacted with mine), and the husband and wife owners. When I started at my current job 13 years ago there was another administrative assistant, but she left less than six months later. She was going through a lot in her personal life so I’m not even sure she’d remember me, let alone anything about the quality of my work. Not to mention that the majority of my skills were built after she abruptly left and I had to pick up the slack and learn how to do everything she’d been handling. She could probably say I was good at filing and answering the phone, but that’s about it!

      2. Killer Tomato*

        I guess I could try to wow them before it gets to the awkward reference part of the process. I just worry that I’ll commit all of that time to applying and interviewing only to have this disqualify me at the end. I like your suggestion of asking for other references they’ll accept. I could certainly try that.

  31. Anon for this One*

    How do you all keep family and work separate? I’ve never been goo at that, and tbh, I’m having a pretty terrible day ay work because I can’t compartmentalize.

    My sister called me this morning before work to tell me another problem our aging mother is facing. (She has myriad issues, including alcohol abuse, which makes it difficult if not impossible for us to step in and help. I’m also not local, so if I can’t throw money at the problem, and it’s not an immediate crisis, I need to schedule time to get out there to help.)

    The rest of my morning has been terrible. My worry and anxiety about my family is spiking, and it’s difficult for me to concentrate on my work. Anyone have any suggestions? Or just commiserations about similar experiences?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Sounds like a good day to do small, unimportant things. Update your filing, clean up, review some not-urgent work. Look busy but give yourself some slack to do less today.

    2. Birch*

      Mom, is that you? My mother is going through this now with my grandmother and I can see how tough it is! What I’ve gathered is that there often isn’t anything you can do that would solve the problems, you just have to deal with it as it comes and in the meantime make sure to take care of yourself by drawing boundaries –how much time can you really give? Feeling stressed and awful all the time is exhausting and terrible for your physical and mental health, so anything you can do to take care of yourself is really important in your ability to deal with your mother’s issues. I don’t have any good advice though, just to say I’m sorry you’re going through this and be kind to yourself.

    3. Also Definitely Anon For This*

      I usually don’t have a problem separating work and personal life, but sometimes stuff eats at you … and that is completely understandable. On Wednesday I found out that my bipolar brother, who can’t work because of his mental illness and lives in another state, is currently homeless. I’m in no position to help him financially, and when I looked for help online I found out how very few resources there are on the internet for people in his situation (and for people like me who want to help constructively, not fix his life for him — he doesn’t want that anyway). My car broke down this week, and I’ve been sick, so I was already stressed to the max.

      He’s been in this situation before and he’s doing okay all things considered, but I’ve been worthless at work ever since. I’m the only family member he’s in contact with, and he doesn’t have anyone else.

      So there’s my commiseration and here’s my advice: let yourself off the hook today, do some mindless busy work if you can, and use the weekend to regroup. You’re allowed to do that!! Don’t beat yourself up for having an off day. I mean let’s be honest, that happens sometimes even when you don’t have a family crisis, right?

      1. Anon for this One*

        Thank you so much for this! My situation is very similar, and it’s so hard. I can’t open my house to her – both for my own sanity and because she won’t accept relocating – and there’s so much guilt about not taking that last step to really entwine our lives in a really unhealthy way.

        I’ve decided to take the rest of the day off (I have to entertain guests from out of state all weekend, and can’t cancel now, but at least that will give me a few hours to relax).

        2. Also Definitely Anon For This*

          Yeah it is super tough and frustrating to watch someone deal with this, especially when you stepping in is walking that fine line between enabling and helping and to be honest sometimes you don’t know which it is until you’ve done it. My brother has substance abuse issues too and right now I’m terrified he’s going to fall back into that. I keep telling myself that my level of support has nothing to do with whether or not he chooses to go down that road, which is true, but ughhh. Guilt and sadness anyway, right? Fortunately, and when he was in a better situation, he and I agreed a long time ago that we needed to establish boundaries and did that. He knows what I can and can’t help with.

          Anyway, I really wish the best for your mom and for you and the rest of your family – all you can do is your best and you have to come first or you can’t help anyone else, so don’t forget that!!

      2. Doug Judy*

        I just want to say I also have a brother who’s bipolar is very severe so I know how hard it is. My brother is beyond lucky that my parents are financially and logistically able to support him, or I feel he would have a very different life. Because you are right, there are very few resources and help. It hard, and sometimes giving yourself some grace is all you can do. I hope things start looking up soon.

      3. yo*

        If they have a local 2-1-1 system, you can either go online and find resources for him or he can call (or go online himself if he can access a computer at the library). They can help him find shelter or services.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      My home life blew up this week too. For me, I try to mentally frame work as a refuge from the crazy stuff happening at home. Work is predictable, there are certain rules of behavior, etc. It’s not perfect, but I find that it can help. I’m a little more distracted at work this week than usual, but it’s almost like a harbor from the storm that’s happening at home.

      Sorry about your mother. Hang in there.

      1. Isotopes*

        This is my preferred strategy for dealing with the fact that I’m going through a not-very-good separation with someone who is severely unhinged. At work, I just get to do my job and escape the huge mess for a few hours.

        I’m definitely not working at 100%, but I’m getting everything done.

        Also agree with Blue Eagle below who suggests you speak with your sister about not giving you that kind of news first thing in the morning or while you’re at work.

        I’m really sorry, though. An Al-Anon meeting might be a good idea, if you’d be up for trying one out.

    5. Cheese Boat*

      This will depend on what your relationships with your coworkers are like, but I have always found it easier to confide in a person or two at work. Having somebody who is aware but also capable of deflecting detailed inquiries can help me feel like (a) it isn’t a huge secret I have to bear and (b) if people start wondering between themselves why I might seem moody/sad/etc, hopefully anyone I told could gently say something along the lines of “oh, I think Cheese Boat’s having a tough time at home right now/family member is terminally ill/etc etc” without me having to say it to anybody myself. It can also remove the feeling that I have to be superwoman and power through despite what’s going on at home. RT what other commenters are saying about taking it easy today.

      It’s really hard having problems that are far away and fairly unfixable. Last year my family’s dog died and a few years ago I had a relative die suddenly from brain cancer, both in another state and during times when I simply could not go home, and it’s so tough to try to pretend everything is fine when it feels like your world is falling apart. I really feel for you.

    6. AdminX2*

      Take mom off the table. Seriously. There’s nothing you can do for her, she will only get worse. If you have contact with her it’s only helping her think “It can’t be that bad, if it were that bad they would stop contact.” No contact with mom until she chooses to be active in a program for at least six months sober and no talk with sister or other family about it unless it’s to find out she is in a hospital.

      Enabling is your own disease and you deserve to get help for it. Start going to Alanon, start freeing yourself from her problems. Of course you want to help, but the best way to help in this scenario is to let her go and take any other enablers off the table.

      1. Also Definitely Anon For This*

        While I agree that you should not enable an addict in their addictive or manipulative behavior in any way, there are a lot of details missing from OP’s story and you filled in some of those blanks with assumptions.

        Since I don’t know OP’s full story I’ll give you an example: my brother needs medication to treat his severe mental illness. He’s been through years of therapy and he’s been to rehab as well. All of that has helped him immensely. However, sometimes he has breakthrough bipolar episodes that medication does not help. When this happens he loses his grip on reality, stops properly medicating himself, and occasionally relapses into drug use, which is how he coped prior to being diagnosed and medicated. Sometimes he can get himself checked into a psychiatric hospital and into a controlled environment where he’s safe from relapse, but a few times he hasn’t been able to do that. In other words, the substance abuse is a symptom, not the cause, of his problems.

        In any case, nothing you said helps OP deal with his/her emotional response to the situation while s/he is at work today.

        I’m not trying to be antagonistic, I’m just pointing out that when mental health issues are involved sometimes it’s not as simple as “stop enabling an addict and cut them loose.”

    7. Not So NewReader*

      You can’t compartmentalize because 5 pounds of stuff will not fit into a 1 pound box.

      There are just some things that spill over. Consider the opposite example, such as a toxic boss who spills over into home life. Our work and personal lives cross over frequently.

      Perhaps your sis and you can talk on the phone at different times, rather than just before you leave for work.

      Maybe you can google and help sis find resources in her area.

      Sometimes we can push anxiety back by finding one immediate step we can take to help the situation.

      Last, tell yourself that the nature of mom’s problems is such that you guys need a team of people helping her. Sis is not going to do this alone, neither are you annnd the two of you combined are probably going to find much of it overwhelming. Anxiety lies to us. Anxiety tells us, if we were there we could magically fix everything and that is a lie. Make it a point to tell yourself over and over, “There’s anxiety, LYING to me, AGAIN.”

    8. Manders*

      Step one for me was being up front, but not TMI-ish, with my boss about the fact that my mom’s in ill health. Knowing that my boss is already aware of the situation takes some of my most persistent worries off my mind, like worrying about whether I’ll be fired if I have to fly out of town on short notice or if people in the office will think less of me on days I’m not feeling chipper.

      I also live by my to-do list. That constant low-grade worry screws with my short-term memory, so while I used to be awesome at remembering tasks, now I have to admit to myself that I can’t rely on my memory alone.

      This may vary depending on your job, but I try to 1) work ahead on mission-critical tasks on the good days and 2) save a store of repetitive, low-critical-thinking tasks for the bad days. I think this has actually improved my reputation at work, I get a lot of kudos for being on top of my tasks and for powering through those boring tasks no one wants to do.

      I listen to podcasts at work. There’s something about hearing someone else’s voice in my ear that disrupts my internal monologue.

      Good luck! I’m in a similar-ish situation now and it’s really hard.

    9. Blue Eagle*

      Ask your sister to not call you in the morning when what she has to tell you can be put off until after work.

    10. CL*

      As someone working in HR, what I’ve come to realize and what I try to coach people through is there is no way to separate personal life and work life. We’re human and our different lives bleed, blur, and blend together. The important thing is how you navigate these separate worlds. I think it can be more stressful, and more damaging, to try to keep everything completely separate. Even the “best of the best” can’t do it. As another commenter suggested, when you have a stressful personal situation, what can you do at work to give yourself space? Can you tackle easy tasks? Is it bad enough that you should take a day off or is being at work a good thing? Be cognizant of how you are reacting to others too. If personal stressors make you edgy, can you clear your calendar and take care of tasks that have few interaction requirements with colleagues? Or do you thrive on being around others and find that socializing helps you decompress?

      Also, I’m sorry you’re dealing with a big stress right now. I hope you experience something positive or peaceful soon to help balance everything.

  32. Seifer*

    There’s been some talk about rearranging the office… both my cubemate and I have standing desks next to the windows and we JUST moved there so we DEFINITELY don’t want to move. And I handle a lot of sensitive information–I’m not in accounting but I see payroll and contract amounts and stuff like that. I don’t want to throw a fit and be like I can’t move from this coveted corner cube, but I moved here on purpose!

    I’m just kvetching. We’re probably going to move. It’s going to suck.

    1. Tara S.*

      Doesn’t hurt to politely mention that you would like to stay in the corner cube, especially since you view sensitive information. You can’t demand, but nothing wrong with politely letting your preferences be known.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        And it can/should be done in a way that’s about the organization’s needs, not your preference.

        “How are you handling the necessary privacy issues? Remember that (cubemate and?) I handle sensitive information, and need to be in a spot where our screens aren’t viewable to people walking by. That’s why this corner works well for us.

        1. Seifer*

          Yes, thank you! As a whole, all the company handles sensitive information, but I might be the only one besides for my boss on this side of the building that sees this particular kind of sensitive information. My original plan was for my boss and I to move into one of the larger offices with doors, but my project exec shot that down because he didn’t want people sharing offices anymore. So this is plan B, to make my case to my boss so that he can talk to the exec.

    2. Icontroltherobots*

      Ask them for privacy screens for your monitors. They’re VERY expensive. Hopefully it will be a cheaper/easier solution to just let you stay in your corner cube :)

      1. Seifer*

        Hahahaha yes. My cubemate actually has one, even though we all have two monitors, and it was only because he has his standing desk facing in such a way that if you’re just walking down the hall, you can see what’s on his screen. Also, he’s like 6’8″ so when he pulls his desk up to stand, you can clearly see his full monitor over the cube wall even though we have the really high cube walls. But yes, the screens were very expensive and it was only because our facility security officer told the EA that he needed it, that he was able to get one. I personally think that we all should have them, but they company doesn’t want to eat the cost for that.

        1. Icontroltherobots*

          I mean if you’re working with compensation data or SSN’s it’s really important that people can’t just see what’s on your computer.

    3. MLB*

      I was in a similar situation, and when they moved some of our team from another floor, I got booted to a smaller cube because I didn’t have a certain title. I tried to argue that I needed extra space because of one of my main job duties, but I still got booted. I would plead your case, but sometimes there’s nothing you can do about it.

  33. Amber Rose*

    Husband took the year long position at the location that’s far away. The pay increase was very small, but the opportunity was too big to let it get away. He’s got a clause in his contract that guarantees his old position will be available at the end of the year unless he says he doesn’t want it. We talked about it for a long time, and I used some of the suggestions/questions I got here last Friday to go over it with him. They really wanted him, he was their #1 choice before he even applied.

    His imposter syndrome is driving me a bit batty but I suspect it’ll go away once he starts the new position.

    In the meantime, I am failing more and more at my own job. I desperately need to find a new one before the thread I’m hanging on snaps and people realize just how bad it’s all become. But I have no idea what I want to do. I don’t want to stay in this field, but I’m not good for anything else. Or anything at all.

    1. Theory of Eeveelution*

      Get those thoughts out of your head. Consider that your current situation has convinced you of this, and that it’s not actually true. Start rekindling friendships to sustain you while your husband is away. If you’re serious about switching fields, start doing some free online courses NOW! I believe in you!

    2. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      I’m sorry to hear you’re hanging on by a thread! I’m in a similar situation, but not quite that bad. Here’s hoping that you’ll be able to find some clarity for your next move and be able to make it before you snap! Virtual hugs for comfort and high fives for support!

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Well, I think he’s not the only one suffering from impostor syndrome. No, you’re not good for only one thing. That’s your brain being nasty to you.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Totally agree.
        AR, you are good at some things, no different from the rest of us here, just not this particular job. Perhaps you can try temping for a bit to get some flavor?

        Get a drink with electrolytes in it, so your brain gets some minerals back and it’s easier not to do the stinkin’ thinkin’. Next start thinking about where your interests are, what do you gravitate towards? I don’t mean just hobbies. I mean think back to classes in school, were you one of the few people NOT groaning about algebra? Did other people copy off YOUR paper in history class? Think about where you have felt on solid ground.

        We do know from what you wrote before that you are well liked. Never underestimate how far this will carry you. It’s very powerful to be personable and conversational. When I went back to college there was this one team I was on with a guy who was just a people person. Imagine my surprise when I found out he was a solid C student. I did not expect that at all. His people skills carried him and I suspect those skills are still carrying him. It’s okay not to know stuff, people will work with us. It’s not okay to be unpleasant. You have a firm handle on this basic requirement. To me that is 50% of getting employment right there.

  34. Tara S.*

    How would you handle this situation? (Adults behaving immaturely)

    Context: One of my supervisors is mentoring me, and I try to pay attention when he talks about his management style. I don’t always love his approaches to things (I have high standards from reading this website!), so I try and think through how I would handle the situations he is describing. This one story struck me as “off,” but I’m not exactly sure of what the best way to deal with it would have been.

    Story: My boss was the manager of a business center for a University. The office got re-done/re-ordered. Two longer-term employees (I think they both had at least 10 years, though not necessarily at the business center) were moved into the same office. (I believe they were in cubes before?) This office had one window. The way the desks were set up, one was closer to the window, the other closer to the door. Person A, who had the desk nearer the window, filled up the windowsill with plants. Person B, who had the desk closer to the door, felt that they should be able to also put plants on the windowsill. If I remember correctly, Person B moved some of Person A’s plants and put in their own. This upset Person A. There was full out yelling in the office about the plants. The argument was dragged up to my boss. He told them that they were adults, they needed to figure this out professionally, and that they both could have half the windowsill each. This did not solve the problem, what constituted “half” was not agreed on, there was more yelling. My boss pulled Person A and Person B into his office, told them that if they couldn’t figure this out, he would board up the window, and if there was any more yelling in the office, he would have them both written up and put on PIPs (the beginning of “firing” procedures for a public University). Person A and Person B came to a tense stalemate, and both transferred on their own to different departments within a year.
    I don’t know what exactly about my boss’s approach feels off to me. Maybe the fact that he’s a man and both Person A and B were women? Maybe the glee in his tone when he described threatening to board up the window and put them on a PIP? Maybe the way he talked about “dressing them down” during the second meeting (not yelling, just, trying to shame them for their unprofessionalism?).

    Anyway, I don’t know what the best thing to do *is* when adults behave like children. WWYD?

    2. College Career Counselor*

      The two co-workers were acting like squabbling siblings, so your boss acted like their father. Both of those reactions are problematic in the work place. Your boss basically made himself the enemy of both of them and got what he wanted out of it (their ultimate transfer).

      I’m not sure what I would have done, other than to follow Allison’s advice and say something like “you two need to be civil and professional to each other. This is a requirement of your job–can you do that? If you can’t, there will be disciplinary repercussions.” I suppose he could also have said, “Neither of you gets to use the windowsill,” but that veers again into the parental aspect.

    3. Queen of the File*

      Yeah–the facts of the response don’t seem strange to me, but the glee/punishment in the retelling feels not awesome.

    4. Perse's Mom*

      They behaved like bickering siblings, so he treated them as such. Sure, ideally he wouldn’t have been gleeful about it, but I imagine lots of managers get very frustrated with ridiculous behavior and it’s satisfying to resolve it.

    5. Enough*

      Actually I’m not sure what else he could have done except move one or both of them to a new location. Sometimes if adults insist on acting like children you have to treat them like children. As far as the glee you feel he was expressing that is somewhat subjective so I would have to have heard him. And to me gender is not a big issue. I’m female and would have probably done something similar although probably would have told them nothing could go on the window sill.

    6. anonymoushiker*

      Oh, that’s tough. I would probably try to suss out why this has become such an issue by talking to them individually and then attempt to do some sort of mediation and collaborative if possible problem solving that would find a reasonable solution. I would also make it clear that if it didn’t work, I would have to consider putting them on PIPs or some other type of consequence (that I would need to discuss with HR). I think the sense of glee/power usage would feel off to me from that story.

    7. Manders*

      You’re right that something about this story rubs me the wrong way, BUT the fact that it happened at a university does add some important context. It’s been my experience that universities tolerate unprofessional behavior, and block bosses from the most obvious solutions, often enough that the culture can get pretty odd.

      I don’t know if your boss had the option of moving someone to a different office, if he already wanted to manage one or both of these people out for their unprofessional behavior, if the office re-ordering was a multi-year process that required him to manage dozens of meltdowns, etc. Sometimes people in dysfunctional environments develop work-arounds when bureaucracy or office culture makes the most logical thing to do difficult or even impossible.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t think I would board up the window but I think that I would say “Do you really want me to arbitrate this one? My answer will be NO one has plants period. Are you sure you want me involved here?”

      Then I would be looking at fire code to see if there was a provision that said, nothing could be blocking the windows. But I would do that quietly.

      Bosses can’t micromanage small situations like this. People are being compensated to get along with each other. That is a given in any job. These are two people who repeatedly refused to make peace and move on. They failed a basic requirement of any job.

      So there were two adults arguing over plants in a window and the two adults decided to let the boss decide what to do. Just my opinion, but they got the answer they deserved. Yes, it can feel awkward if putting his foot down unfamiliar in some way, but the boss had to put his foot down so he did.

    9. Nacho*

      Boss sounds like a cool guy to me. A and B were behaving like 5 year olds, so Boss treated them like it. Sure, there were probably other options available to Boss, like changing their work station or personally telling them what half of the windowsill means, but he really shouldn’t have to do this.

    10. Autumnheart*

      In my opinion, boss did exactly the right thing. Multiple yelling fights about putting plants on the windowsill FFS?

      There are so many toxic workplaces where managers brush off or refuse to deal with ridiculous behavior, and allow one or two combative workers to ruin it for everyone. It’s nice to see one where a manager actually put the smack down.

  35. The Other Dawn*

    So my company is being sold and it’s happening in a couple weeks. I didn’t get an offer for the new company, but that’s perfectly fine. All my team members did, though, and so did lots of others. Even though it doesn’t affect me, my question is about health insurance premiums.

    Has anyone ever heard of a company adding a surcharge to the employee’s portion of the premium because their spouse (however that is defined–just using the general term) has insurance available to them at their own job, but they’re being added to the employee’s coverage? This new company charges $2,000 a year to the employee on top of their portion of the premium when they add a spouse who has coverage available at their own job and doesn’t take it. That adds more than $80 per pay check that the employee has to pay. That’s quite a large amount when you’re talking about many employees who live paycheck to paycheck, have other larges expenses, etc. (I see it as a large amount no matter the situation) Obviously, this is leaving a really bad taste in the mouths of those that were given offers at the new company.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Yes, the spousal surcharge has been a Thing at both my last job and my current one. I get why companies do it. It seems kind of crappy to not waive it for the rest of the year, though, since open enrollment is generally Novemberish.

    2. Tara S.*

      I have no idea if this is legally allowed (probably, ugh), but it’s obviously a huge disincentive to add a spouse to the company’s insurance. I’ve not heard of anyone else doing this, but I guess I’m not that surprised. My uncle had a job where if you decide to use your spouses’ insurance instead of the company’s, they will pay you in cash what they would have paid toward your insurance. New job doesn’t have that though, if you use spouses’ insurance they just don’t pay for yours! :(

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yes, I’ve seen it especially at places that are self-insured; it is intended as a disincentive. While sharing insurance is certainly nice if you can do it, for us it allows more flexibility to be separate anyway – I hardly ever go to the dr so I have a high-deductible HSA plan, whereas my husband goes a lot so he has a lower-deductible PPO.

    3. Red Reader*

      We don’t add a surcharge, but the spouse can only have out coverage as secondary insurance rather than primary unless they are not personally eligible for an employer sponsored plan through their own employer that meets certain requirements. (So this doesn’t apply to unemployed spouses.)

      The principle is similar though – they would prefer not to be handling the insurance for non-employees if they can help it, so they find ways to deter it if possible.

    4. PieInTheBlueSky*

      I believe this is known as a “spousal carve out” policy. It’s something that happens, but I don’t know how common it is.

    5. Judy (since 2010)*

      I’m pretty sure every company I’ve worked at since the late 80s has done this. My most recent company (left 4 years ago) charged $100 per month at the end for insuring a spouse that had coverage at their own job. My current company will not cover spouses that have coverage available at their own job.

    7. Potato Girl*

      Yeah, most places I’ve worked only allow spouse coverage if spouse doesn’t earn healthcare at their own job. Kinda takes half the point out of being married, but whatever.

    8. Persimmons*

      Not only is this common, but disallowing a spouse completely unless they have no other insurance option is also common. I had to prove that my husband was an unemployed caregiver to get him on my insurance.

      A member of my team told me that her husband is a high-level manager at Blue Cross, and even they do the same thing to their own employees.

      1. Basia, also a Fed*

        Yes, my husband works for state government. They require a letter from the spouse’s employer that they don’t offer them insurance (if the spouse has a job). Without the letter, they won’t cover them.

      2. Hamburke*

        I’ve noticed that health insurance companies provide the absolute worst coverage for their own employees… My sister worked for an insurance company many years ago and the only option they had was a high deductible plan with no company contribution at all – they paid the whole premium plus any HSA contribution.

    9. Name Goes Here*

      FormerCompany used to have a policy that if your spouse’s employer offered insurance, they had to purchase that before they could be added to our plan, which would then be secondary insurance. It sucked and I’m glad when we were bought out by CurrentCompany they didn’t have the same policy.

    11. Bea*

      Truly baffling to be to hear this is a thing. It must be a large(r) company setup who has bigger administrative costs. We would never make it more expensive to add a spouse. Granted adding a spouse is horribly costly for anyone who wants to. I’m saying it’s over $80 a paycheck…more like 150-250 depending on the age range we’re talking about. So hell no are we punishing someone more if they have to opt in for that nonsense.

      I miss my dad’s old coverage. No extra cost for adding dependents. Awww the 90s and a strong union. They crumbled with the economy needless to say but never destroyed their healthcare options.

    12. Could be Anyone*

      I’ve seen jobs that will only allow your spouse to be added to your insurance if their employer doesn’t offer any insurance. So even if their job has terrible/expensive insurance, no dice. My county government job paid a stipend (I think $2,500/year) to people who declined insurance altogether because they had it elsewhere.

      My current job pays X per month towards insurance premiums (X = the cost of a single person plan) and you have to pay the difference if you want to add family. They also offer a cheaper HSA plan which makes the difference a bit less but generally it’s several hundred dollars per month AT LEAST.

    13. Star Nursery*

      Yes… A spouse surcharge of $200 per month is a thing at my current employer… If spouse is eligible through their employer for health insurance. I was so happy when my spouse finally changed jobs and got their own health insurance.

    14. Bird*

      The cost to add my spouse to my health insurance at work, if she had not gotten a temporary appointment at the literal eleventh hour, would have been an extra $740 a month.

    15. The Other Dawn*

      Thanks, everyone! I had no idea that this is common. At least now when I move on to another company I won’t be surprised if they do this, too. Luckily I can go on my husband’s insurance next year, as his company does not do this.

      1. ronda*

        I think becoming unemployed is one of the reasons you can get on insurance outside of open enrollment. You should check.

        If not you have about 3 months to sign up for COBRA and that is retro-active coverage, so if you end up having a big medical incedent in those months you can sign up for COBRA after and be covered.
        —-guess who was out of work fairly recently :)

  36. AdminX2*

    Last Fri Open Thread I mentioned a difficult person on a volunteer committee and dealing with them. An update.
    Last meeting I tried to bring up how the group prefers to do conflict resolution and he tried to shut me down, interrupting me, saying I was horrible for trying to force this on him, that there WAS no issue as far as he was concerned. The leader said he would prefer we take some time to get perspective, if we wanted to talk it out directly try that. If that failed, come back to him and would try to arbitrate.

    After a week of nothing, I emailed the guy super politely asking when he would like to coordinate some time to talk directly. I get back an immediate harsh rebuff that he doesn’t consent to this, there is no problem, to not bring it up ever again to him or at a future meeting. I forwarded it to the leader acknowledging there’s nothing I could do but I did expect SOMETHING to be said to this person as I was worried about escalation with me or an attendee at the event itself.

    To which the leader emails me saying the guys sister had just died and if he and I could talk in a few days, apparently EVERYONE on the committee knew except me and had not bothered to bring me in. Now, I’m not entitled to know his personal stuff, and I didn’t do anything impolite or inappropriate at any stage certainly as I was ignorant of his situation, but I would have allowed for timing to mourn. No, this wasn’t just a guy being a little attitude one bad day, this is multiple absolute rejection and degradation points.

    Suffice to say I told the leader taking time would of course be fine but I DID still expect something to be said and not just dropped. And this continues to support my decision to leave after this event is done and get away from the dysfunction.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Um… yeah, the fact that no one could be bothered to tip you off that dude was dealing with some serious personal issues is a huge problem and you are definitely right to get out as soon as you can.

    2. valentine*

      The death is just an excuse for the leader to continue avoiding confrontation. They’ve: (1) done nothing (2) made it your individual problem with the cruel guy (3) told you to meet alone with this person they themselves won’t confront in front of witnesses (4) made you the bad guy by bringing up the death (5) strung you along that much further. I hope you will fly and be free because there are better people on the planet who won’t mistreat you like this. I would resign and recommend they read The Revolution Begins at Home, edited by Ching-In Chen, Jai Dulani, and Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha.

  37. Crystal Smith*

    This is pretty low-stakes, but I keep running into an issue and I have no idea how to respond – I’m doing workshops on a new software that’s being implemented at work, and it’s a Big Deal because it’s our main tool (I’m trying to be vague on purposes here). Training is split between different areas, let’s say teapot handles, teapot spouts, and teapot bodies, and I’m doing teapot handles. After my workshops, my coworkers have been making a point of telling me I did a great job (which is nice!) but they invariably follow up by mentioning how bad the teapot spout and body workshops were, and how they don’t feel like they know anything about those areas, etc. I’ve pretty much been saying “oh thank you!” and then mentioning that they should put their concerns in the feedback forms that get sent around after every session. I don’t know what else to say!

    And, I don’t know if I should mention to the other teams that people feel this way? No one has given me anything specific that I could say “oh I heard people wanted to see more of xyz,” which I would be fine with, it really is all “I don’t know ANYTHING about it, it was USELESS” and I’m not really comfortable saying “hey everyone tells me your sessions sucked.” (It doesn’t help that this same thing happened with an earlier round of training we did in the summer, and I know for a fact that none of them breathed a word in the feedback forms about their concerns because I saw all the responses.) I think maybe the answer is to keep my peace, but ugh.

    1. Four lights*

      Once training is over you could frame it as, “Let’s look at all of our feedback and see if there’s anything we need to improve on for next time.” Or , “Now that we’ve done a lot of these, lets see…” If they didn’t put anything in the feedback forms, maybe you could email out another anonymous one. Or encourage people to be more honest in the forms.

      Or come up with a way to “quiz” everyone on the sessions to see if they’ve actually learned anything, so you can show what needs to be explained better. Actually, now that I think about it, a post assessment is pretty important in teaching, so you may be able to find some informal ways to do this online. (like some sort of game at the end of the session)

    2. AnotherJill*

      Other than suggesting a debriefing session to discuss how all trainers felt that that the training went, I wouldn’t do anything. When I taught, students would often complain randomly about other instructors, and unless I heard anything really egregious, I felt that it was their issues to work out directly with their instructors.

      Sometimes students just want to vent in the moment and you’ve done your job just by listening. If they don’t want to put concerns on the feedback forms, it’s either a bigger symptom of your environment where employees feel that feedback is not welcomed or that the concerns just aren’t that important.

    3. I guess I am a product owner*

      I have been on all different sides of that situation (trainee, trainer who was good, trainer who sucked, person coordinating trainers who were good or who sucked, etc.). My vote is: it will be SUPER AWKWARD, but everyone will ultimately be grateful if you say something. Everyone wants the training to be effective, right? You’re in a position to help make that happen. Some framing/scripts: “Hey, I wanted to share some feedback I heard from trainees. Several people mentioned that they left the teapot spout session without a clear understanding of how to use [tool]. I’m not sure exactly what aspects they wanted more help with, but I know that you care about your work and would want to know for the future.” I’ve gotten notes like this, and it was unpleasant and I was stressed about it, but then I was able to reach out to trainees and figure out what exactly needed fixing, and my next trainings were much more successful.

  38. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    Job interview today! I’m feeling optimistic, but have not as yet been able to verify with the actual employer yet that the salary range the recruiter quoted me is correct. I’m hoping to get it cleared up in the interview; on the one hand, it seems a little high for the position, but on the other, Glassdoor reviews have “great pay & benefits” as pros in almost every one. Maybe I’m just too used to being underpaid? Crossing my fingers it goes well and there really is an opportunity for me to bump my pay grade up considerably.

  39. Testing.1.2.3*

    Has anyone taken the Predictive Index prior to an interview or as a condition to be interviewed?

    What do you think of taking these types of tests prior to or condition of interviewing? Has it been helpful to the organization- that you know of? Does your organization use it for hiring?

    I’m not keen on personality tests, but I read up on this one and it has mostly positive reviews and write-ups about it. It’s also EEOC ‘approved’. I think another name could be Culture Index?

    1. Art3mis*

      Yep. A lot. It’s predictive of me not getting an interview. Not sure what it tells people but it seems to not work in my favor. My current company uses something called Rembrandt.

    2. AnotherJill*

      I once applied for two positions at the same company, which at the time required a battery of various tests. The results of one test indicated that I was “unconventional”. One of the positions was for the IT department, the other was for the software development department.

      The interview with the IT manager was painful – the interviewer kept quizzing me about being unconventional. I tried to spin it as thinking out of the box to solve problems, but he clearly put a lot of stock in it. The interview with the software development manager started out by him noting that I had interviewed with IT, to which I responded that I think they were a little frightened by my unconventionality. His response was that he didn’t pay any attention to “that crap”.

      So at least in this circumstance, how much attention gets paid to it varies, depending on the role and the manager. During my 10 years there, the company also stopped doing this kind of testing because overall it wasn’t making any difference in their hiring.

    3. PIPro*

      I ran our Predictive Index program at my last company. I’m on the fence about these types of test as part of the hiring process because it really depends on how the company uses it. PI used correctly, should help the interviewer evaluate the candidates level of self awareness around specific areas (attention to detail, variety, how collaborative or independent you are, and so on). I do know that some companies will incorrectly kick people out of the process if their PI profile doesn’t match the job profile, which is why I’m not really a fan of these types of tests.

    4. Crylo Ren*

      I did as part of my hiring process for my current job (been here 1+ year). I didn’t mind it too much, it didn’t seem overly invasive and the questions (from what I can remember) were very work-specific.

      If it had actually been used as hiring criteria, I wouldn’t know; I didn’t get my results from it (and my team didn’t know what my results were) until I had been there for over a year, so by that point it was basically just confirming what we already knew about each other.

    5. ZuZu*

      I’ve had to do it a bunch. I will take a quick PI test prior to interviewing because it’s quick and painless. However, I’ve had companies that want me to do a more in-depth IQ or aptitude test prior to scheduling an interview, and I typically won’t do those unless it’s later in the process because I feel it’s asking me to invest a lot more in the process than the company.

      My last org took PI results very seriously, and would not hire people based on them. We also hired a lot of people who had good results and bombed at the job. I take it all with a grain of salt.

  40. OMG Anon*

    I’m going anonymous for this. I share an office with my boss and I absolutely hate it.

    She talks on her personal cell phone a lot, and loudly. And talks about religious stuff with friends that makes me feel uncomfortable. She eats constantly and loudly. She coopts the temperature in the room, running her fan when I’m already under a blanket. I’m not able to listen to music any more.

    I absolutely adore my supervisor but this setup is awful.

    1. Theory of Eeveelution*

      You’re not able to listen to music because she’s already playing music, or because she doesn’t allow you to play music? Did she actually tell you that, or are you assuming this because of her office behavior? If not, just ask her if headphones are ok!

      1. OMG Anon*

        We interact too much for headphones to be a possibility. And she dislikes music so I cannot listen to it otherwise.

        1. Annie Moose*

          Would you be able to do one headphone in, one out?

          No matter what, that sounds horribly annoying. :/

  41. Nervous Nellie*

    To me it’s been a discouraging couple of weeks here at AAM. So many of the discussions seem to have revolved around maturity in the workplace. We’ve been discussing feelings charts, silent treatments, Nerf gun battles, debating the word “tattling” and defiant cellphone use. Did I miss anything? Even when hearing from folks who agree that adults need to bring their adult selves to work, we get even more personal experiences with bratty colleague behavior.

    I am looking for work after surviving two very toxic workplaces, and the reality these chats address sure is disheartening. Of course I know that I cannot expect any new workplace to meet all of my expectations, but it sure sounds like schoolyard behavior is the norm to expect to have to deal with everywhere.

    Please tell me I am wrong! Any positive or reassuring comments to share? Do you work in a largely mature and productive place? Cheer me up! Cheer us all up. It’ll be our Friday treat.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I think I work in a balanced workplace? I mean, I hang up a bit at the word “mature” because I struggle with what it means. I have a juvenile sense of humor and so do basically all my coworkers, and there’s quite a lot of inappropriate joking around and so very many foosball battles (during lunch). That said, work gets done like whoah. We are incredibly productive, and business has boomed dramatically this year.

      We have our share of issues, but the steps taken to address those have been quite useful, and have not in any way involved nerf battles or feelings charts or sulking or silent treatment. Mostly they’ve involved improving our technology and better defining our procedures. Or having procedures at all. We didn’t when I started, things were very cowboy around here. I think it’s pretty neat that we recovered so well from the utter chaos I was hired into, and it really speaks to the skills of our general manager, who is a hero of organization.

      1. Nervous Nellie*

        Hi all below!
        Thanks everyone for weighing in! Sure, I get that this is an advice site for work problems, but it’s also a so often a venue for general questions (like – how should I word this thing on my cover letter), which has always made me feel that it overall represents the norms of working life. Some days I sure hope not!

        There have just been so many brat stories lately, and as I look for work I know that I can’t really screen for craziness, but I deeply fear that I will be launched into ToxicJob #3, with more of the same of the pouting and tantrums and drama, when all I want to do is get work done.

        I’m in my 50s, and really feel like the working world was calmer and more mature 20 years ago. Maybe I just got lucky with those jobs back then?

        That said, I am delighted you folks can prove me wrong about today. It is hugely reassuring to know that you have sane workplaces. That gives me hope! Lily Rowan, I especially want to come work with you! :)Sounds lovely.

    2. CatCat*

      Well, I think schoolyard behavior seems like it’s a norm on here because a huge portion of this blog is devoted to dealing with that stuff. So that skews what you are seeing. A blog all about how everyone behaved appropriately at work would not be all that interesting :-)

      And FWIW, I currently work in a largely mature and productive place!

      2. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, I will not be writing to AAM any time soon, because my current letter would read like this:

        All of my coworkers are collegial and have appropriate boundaries, my boss respects me and my work, and our hours are sane and predictable. My current problem is having two great applicants to choose from for an open position. No help needed!

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’m about 2ish months into a new job. Overall, it’s really good. No, things aren’t perfect, but nothing is. And the problem stuff either doesn’t bother me, doesn’t impact me, or my manager is protecting me from it (and she recognizes the BS stuff and sympathizes).

      So the good places are out there! Remember, if everything’s basically good, why would you write to an advice blog for help?

    4. SarahKay*

      I think a lot of what you’re seeing is that:
      (a) by it’s nature AAM is going to throw up many many bad stories. Not many people are going to write to a problem page saying that they started a new job six months ago and it’s all going well – and even if they did, that’s not going to be published.
      (b) the comments are likely to draw out people’s recollections of the one time they were in a similar situation – but that’s one time, out of (say) 20 years of experience.

      Honestly, I read many of the stories in AAM in horror, because pretty much none of my managers (or workplaces) have ever been like that. Sure, I’ve had co-workers that I’ve not got on with, or who haven’t been models of professionalism, but they’ve been the exception rather than the rule. I’ve had a couple of managers that lacked professionalism too, but they’ve been the exception for me – and mostly the exception within the organisations I’ve worked for, too.

      One was an over-sharing manager, and one was an excitable-rather-shouty manager (Italian mama in family restaurant, so not entirely unexpected), but that’s out of fourteen – and the other twelve ranged from good to awesome. I’ve had managers go to bat for me to get me better pay, managers who’ve encouraged me to grow in my career, even when it means they lose me as their employee, and above all, managers who every day treat me with respect and professionalism.

      Good luck in your job-search!

    5. Victoria, Please*

      I feel like I have the best job ever. I have a generally very high functioning team, a beautiful office suite for all of us, and the only thing that really makes me nuts is that people *cannot* seem to turn the kitchen faucet off properly so it dribbles (you gotta get it at just the right angle). Even the fridge stays clean. We all work reasonable hours and pull weight for each other if someone needs it. No one is ever forced to socialize and about 1-2 times a year I take everyone out to lunch if they want to go.

      So yes, these places do exist…promise.

      1. Nervous Nellie*

        Oh, somewhere over the rainbow! Victoria, Please – that sounds heavenly. I think all of us like-minded AAMs should start a business together (Llama Groomers International). I promise you we will get a great plumber! :)

    6. Wishing You Well*

      Of course the working world is better than it looks here on AAM! AAM is for work problems. Okay-ness is on another site!

    7. Montresaur*

      I’m a freelancer in a creative field, with most of my clients and colleagues in different cities than where I live and work. I feel like I’ve hit the jackpot: everyone calls in to meetings on time, zero energy is spent babysitting anyone’s ego, and we’re able to quickly align on projects and adapt to changes smoothly. It’s definitely collaborative over competitive, and our work is better for it. These situations do exist, in many fields and industries! I had several toxic years myself, and I have such an appreciation for healthy work relationships now.

      I believe you’ll find something positive, and wish you well on your search!

    8. Double A*

      I am consistently impressed by the commitment and professionalism of my colleagues! If I were to write in to AAM, it would be a question about dealing with a personality difference that is creating a training challenge. The challenge has nothing to do with maturity or someone who doesn’t understand workplace norms, just your basic is-this-person-a-good-fit type issue.

      I work at the nexus of education and law enforcement, two fields that are often a source of controversy, and I’m just so impressed by how committed and caring my colleagues are. We’ve worked hard to build bridges between our two groups, and the communication is open, honest, and respectful. And we have fun. And we’re public employees, which can sometimes be a place where people coast, but I don’t find that’s really the case in our facility.

      We also all have really different political ideologies and yet manage to work together seamlessly and with lots of respect towards a common compassionate goal, which gives me hope for, like, America in general.

      I’m on maternity leave right now (due in 1 week!) and while I’m way too tired to be working, I otherwise really miss my job.

  42. Theory of Eeveelution*

    Honest confession time…

    For the first time ever, I’m part of a hiring committee, and boy oh boy do I HATE the narrative cover letters we’re getting. I feel bad saying this because they’re basically following Alison’s cover letter advice by personalizing the letter and adding a human touch, but UGH, I feel like these useless statements are wasting my time. I really, really don’t need to know what happened in your childhood that gave a you “a lifetime love of [POSITION].” Just tell me what you’re good at, in college-level sentence structure! And if you’re wondering, this is a creative position, and I’m in the same creative position, and I STILL hate these cover letters. Maybe I’m just a miser! I will tell you, though, that the people who have the more efficient cover letters are getting the interviews…

    1. The Original K.*

      I’m curious: can you give an example of a “more efficient cover letter?” Does it summarize the resume, focus on achievements, use bullets?

    2. CatCat*

      What does the job advertisement tell people to do? If you don’t want narratives, the advertisement can direct people to respond to discrete questions.

    3. AnotherJill*

      When I last worked, I was on several hiring committees and was a little fascinated by the various committee members responses to cover letters.

      Many did not read them at all. Some only read them if they had a question about someone on the resume – like an employment gap or something unclear about their experience. I usually skimmed over them, but only at the end when finalizing interview spots. It was really, really rare that the cover letter made any difference in interview decisions.

      1. medium of ballpoint*

        Agreed. I think cover letter are generally a measure of how well a person has learned to write a cover letter and little else. A good writer with good coaching can write a letter that makes a terrible candidate look fantastic and vice versa, so I’m usually looking only for red flags or seriously atypical accomplishments.

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          Yeah, I definitely use them mostly to find red flags. (Your whole biography? Byeeee) But I won’t sneeze at another chance to screen out red flags before the interview. (It clearly says “send resume and cover letter to this email” and you didn’t bother to even include the BRIEFEST of “I am excited to apply please see attached resume” cover letters? I now have serious concerns about your ability to follow instructions)

    4. Mickey Q*

      I agree. If it doesn’t have bullet points I’m probably not going to read it. If I get 200 applicants I have about 10 seconds to decide if it goes in the yes or no pile. I don’t know why she said to use that style. I don’t want 3 paragraphs about how the applicant has great attention to detail. It’s tedious.

    5. Friday afternoon fever*

      Oh, I disagree! I think a good cover letter will tell you things about the applicant that can’t be captured in the resume — both soft skills they write about, and things you can tell from what and how they write, like, did they even bother to write a cover letter at all? Why are they applying for this job, if they seem over- or under- or differently qualified or want to switch fields? Did they research your company at all or are they mailing out 60 identical applications? Can they write a complete sentence? Do they think you will care about their childhood journey?

      In my interpretation Alison’s advice to personalize the cover letter does NOT mean to give your biography and childhood story. It means to tailor the letter to each position and take the time to give the company a good sense of who you are as a worker and prospective employee.

      I think most people write terrible cover letters. I don’t think that the problem is the cover letter itself.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        I was hired for my job out of a pool of 300 candidates. Based on my resume you would not think I was a natural fit. I would bet money the reason I was offered an interview is because I wrote a damn good cover letter.

        I have hired and most people …. do not write good cover letters. I think it’s a tool most people don’t use as well as they could. Maybe that does speak to its efficacy as a tool. (And certainly there are many positions that truly don’t need a cover letter.)

    6. Marshal P*

      It doesn’t sound like those applicants are actually following Alison’s advice effectively, nor that you are understanding her advice, frankly, given your characterisation of it here. So it’s probably not surprising that these specific cover letters are not successful, if they are poorly written AND being read by people who lack understanding of how to hire effectively.

      You don’t sound like a miser. You sound poorly equipped to be in a hiring committee.

  43. SaraV*

    So here’s a new one…
    I interviewed for a job last Wednesday, and I felt it went really well. My interviewer said she wanted to contact my previous manager (no problemo), and that I should hear from her on Monday, and if not Monday, then definitely Tuesday. So Monday rolls around…no call. Tuesday…still no call. The interviewer said she wouldn’t been in on Wednesday, so didn’t expect one then. So I’m hemming and hawing whether to call her yesterday or not. Finally, a phone call late yesterday morning. “So, I would like to offer you the job right now, but weirdly enough…we’ve run out of drug tests!” This is a semi-related retail position, and she says they’ve hired around 30 people in the past two weeks. Policy is that once they offer, you have 48 hours to report for the drug test. [Cheek swab] So, they can’t offer until they know when they’ll have drug tests on hand.
    All of this to say…I’m THIS >< close to getting a full-time job in what sounds like a position I will really enjoy at a company that I’ve heard is a good one to work for. Not quite in the position where I want to be long-term, I think, but a great stepping stone.

    2. Arjay*

      Congratulations!

      Is it normal for a company to perform a drug test in-house? I’ve always had to do urine tests, which hopefully obviously, required a trip to the lab.

      1. SaraV*

        Arjay…this is a large-ish grocery store chain that has those quick care/walk-in clinics included inside of them. I’m GUESSING that’s where it will be performed. Yeah, my mind went to urine test, too, when she mentioned a drug test. Forgetting about the attached clinic, I thought “Urine test and grocery store just doesn’t seem like a good mix.”

  44. The One With The Cooties*

    Okay, so my so-called “team”/officemates hate my guts. One of them bullied me for a while. All of them do not speak to me unless they absolutely have to for work reasons, and our workloads almost never overlap. I have asked to get moved out of here 4 times so far and have been told things like “there’s no room.”
    Well, one of my coworkers in my old office space is moving and her desk will be open. I would LOVE to go back there. I have a meeting with my boss today and I want to bring this up again for time #5. I don’t really have any advantage to argue for them to move me other than to make them and me happier, though. But come on, who here wants to spend 40 hours a week, 70% of their life, with people who hate them? I spend more time with people who hate me than people who like me. It’s like No Exit.
    The only arguments I can think of to keep me here is “they’re your team” (barf, they are not, see above), and that I have an assistant who is also in here part time. I’m supposed to be sharing him but they hardly ever use him. There would not be room to move him into my old office, which is pretty small but at least the people there like me. I don’t really have a good argument against the convenience of my being next to him, which I am now. But I really really want out of here. I don’t want to officially leave “the team,” I just don’t want to have to see them unless I absolutely have to for team meetings (which we rarely have because of their obvious hate for me during them).
    Any suggestions on how to tackle this one again?

      1. The One With The Cooties*

        I’m going to, but boss is well aware of those things happening already. I’m just so sick of this stressful environment. I had to go to a medical professional about how I’m so stressed out this week.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          Disclaimer – I don’t have any experience with the formal process, but it seems to me that if the situation is aggravating a medical condition (stress, anxiety, whatever), you should be able to ask for an accommodation. I assume if your boss insists you have to make it a formal thing, you could get documentation from the medical professional to back your claim.

    3. More anon than normal*

      Good luck.

      Also, are you job hunting? Because that seems like a better long term option :-(

    4. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      You have the advantage of knowing there is space available now, so start with that. Say that you know it’s open and because of the previous reasons you’ve talked about, you’d like to move ASAP because those reasons are still valid. Good luck!

      1. The One With The Cooties*

        I asked someone in my old office and she said “they’re already planning on moving someone else in there.”

        NEVER EFFING MIND.

        1. valentine*

          It’s not too late. Tell your boss, “The ostracization is aggravating a medical condition that negatively affects my work. I would be able to (verb better/faster/more) in office x (or literally anywhere else). Is this an accommodation you can provide?” There’s no room? Pshaw. They can shuffle)

  45. Anon for this*

    All – I feel like if anyone has a magic bullet answer to this then they could probably be a millionaire marketing it, but just looking for some tips.

    How do you keep your focus at work when you have some kind of personal life drama eruption?

    I’m not talking about long term stuff, but more like someone lays a grenade (figurative) at your feet and you are trying to do damage control but also trying to, you know, do your job? Do you just do the best you can and muddle through? I feel like I do pretty well with compartmentalizing if I am just sad/grieving, but I am a problem solver so I feel like when something is unresolved I can’t relax until it is. Which translates into being distracted at work when these things happen.

    1. Bea*

      I’ve handled a rocky patch in a relationship and my dad’s health crisis by leaving the “baggage” at the door. I let everyone know about my dad and that helped massively, just having my coworkers know if I’m “off”, they can have background to my bad days.

      I use long walks on my spare time to talk to myself and give myself pep talks. So I’m not buried in the sand all day or at night I couldn’t sleep. I think about “this is scary and hurts but I love my boss and coworkers and they need me to do my job.” i can’t just curl up and die, I don’t have kids but I’ve got enough people who depend on me in some way I use that to squeeze myself through life’s insanity.

    2. CTT*

      I’m also a problem-solver, so I get it. What’s worked best for me is to recognize that I can’t fix some things in my life, but I can do my job well. Which I realize sounds a bit like “just ignore your problems!” but it’s more looking at what’s on your plate and seeing what you can “fix.” On the list of things you have to do today, you can probably read a report/get on a call/work your shift; you probably can’t cure cancer or mediate a divorce today. Looking at things that way has also helped me find the things I can do for whatever personal situation is going on, like asking if I can bring by a meal to stick in the freezer, or take their dog for a walk, etc.

      1. Namast'ay in Bed*

        I’m also a problem-solver, so I totally get it too. I went through a rough period in my personal life about two years ago with my dad’s health crisis and I wish I could have handled it differently in my professional life. I’m a “everything is fine because it has to be fine (but things aren’t actually fine)” type of person and was convinced I was good at compartmentalizing things. It turns out I was not actually compartmentalizing things, I was just pretending everything was fine and denying that my stress and worry existed, all the while it bled out into my work life. But the big issue was that I didn’t realize I was doing that – it’s only with the benefit of hindsight (and therapy) that I was able to recognize how I was (or not) handling things.

        I agree with CTT that it’s important to recognize that you can’t fix some things but you can do your job well – but make sure you actually recognize this at a deep level. I would have said that I understood that at the time, but to me that manifested as a shallow understanding of it at a surface level. Like, of course I can just do my job well, duh! No reason to think scary thoughts about possibly losing my dad 30+ years before I thought I would even have to think about stuff like that, and that won’t happen because it can’t happen, so why bother ever even think about that, hahahahahaha I’ll just do my job like normal because everything is normal! [grins like a totally-not-crazy person]

        I was clearly in denial about things. And maybe your experience is different from mine, and maybe you are in a healthier mental place than I was, but the advice I would give myself if I could go back in time is to not pretend everything is ok and assume you can squish all negative feelings down and carry on like normal. Because things aren’t normal – and that’s ok. You can’t compartmentalize everything all the time, and expecting 100% separation of work and home for 40+ hours a week is just an unreasonable expectation to put on yourself. It’s ok to be sad and scared, and it’s ok to not always be 100% at work all the time. There’s absolutely no shame in letting your coworkers/manager know that you’re dealing with some stuff outside of work, and while you’re doing your best it might still slip in from time to time.

        I wish you all the best with things. I hope you check back in, I found sharing with others helped me a lot, and the AAM community is a great group of people for doing that if therapy isn’t for you, or to supplement the work you’re doing yourself. I’m rooting for you!

    3. Persimmons*

      I make a mental flow chart. Can I handle this immediately? Yes/no. If yes, do X. If no, what I can do right now that will help? Even mentally planning talking points for a difficult conversation to be had later can be “doing something”. Is the answer to “what can I do right now that will help” nothing? Then, end of chart. Rehash your path through the chart as needed.

      (And yes, typing this all out does make me realize how strongly I am wired for software dev.)

      1. irene adler*

        This is good. Along the same lines:
        Make an appointment with yourself to work on the situation.
        Like 3 pm Sat. for 30 minutes. Or once a day at a specific hour. Pencil it into your calendar.
        During the week, whenever your mind drifts over to your personal situation, stop yourself. Say to yourself, “nope! I will think about this at my appointment time. That’s when I’ll worry about the situation. Now, I must get back to the task at hand.” Keep repeating this to yourself.
        And yes, keep the appointment – as needed.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      This is me this week. A grenade went off, with permanent, unfixable consequences. Honestly, I’m actively trying to view work as a refuge from what’s going on at home. Work is predictable, there are acceptable rules and standards of behavior, and clear consequences for violations of that standard. Which in my case right now serves as an excellent counterbalance to the mess at home.

      I’m also doing my best not to cry, though there have been one or two retreats to the bathroom. My coworkers have a general idea of what’s happening, so they know I may be a bit distracted. I just try to focus on getting work done, and if there’s a little more internet time, well, I’m still hitting my deadlines.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Thanks. Unfortunately, it’s a mess that I didn’t create, it’s beyond my control, and unless I have legal recourse, I probably just have to ride it out. (yes, consulting with a lawyer)

  46. Bea*

    My first experience with someone taking my food stash in the freezer. I’m not even mad, someone must have been starving to lift a frozen pot pie. I keep a couple frozen snacks in there for days I feel extra hungry. The freezer is rarely used and the thing is never over crowded. I’m the only one who goes through and throws out the old AF bbq items that find their way in there after a company picnic. So I’m just super curious about the whole thing.

    Interesting start to my morning. TGIF, AAM crew!

    1. marie callendar*

      once, i was stuck at work for an unexpected meeting, was desperately hungry, and did not have the money to eat out. i ate a coworker’s frozen burrito. thanks for being understanding about your coworker’s hunger – i hope whomever i borrowed from was similarly kind. if i’d known whose it was, i would’ve paid them back.

  47. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    I’ve just received a spam email from a job portal I’m subscribed to saying “Become a more attractive candidate! Upload your video resume and photo now!”
    Yikes.

    3. London Calling*

      Hahahahahahaha. On my cv I’m an attractive candidate – polished, professional, hardworking, mature, you name it. The camera HATES me. Any vid or pic is going to make me look like the mugshot of a Victorian baby murderer and any recruiter would drop it with a shriek of horror. Damn it, I do the same and I’m used to my face in pictures.

      Nope nope nope. I like working and I like the money. Use a vid or a pic and I’ll never work again.

  48. TheWonderGinger*

    This more of a rant than anything but want to get it off my chest:

    Overall, currentjob has been great about me leaving in two weeks.

    My grandboss will be gone on my actual day, so on Wednesday she brought in a treat for us. The kicker though, is it was a treat that I can’t eat because it physically makes me sick. She even came up to me and said, “Diana, I know you can’t have any but I brought treat for your last day”. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

    I’m a little salty about this. I have spent a lot of time and money organizing showers and parties for coworkers, I genuinely enjoy doing that, but when it comes my turn to be celebrated I get something that they KNOW I can’t eat.

    1. Sylvia*

      That’s very, very weird. Maybe she forgot about your allergy until the last minute and didn’t know how to handle it?

      1. TheWonderGinger*

        That’s what I would like to think too, like she got to work with said treat and saw my Allergy sheet on my cube ( I keep it posted because of scary reactions) and went oh crap…

    2. Bea*

      WTF.

      I was expecting it to be an accident that she didn’t know you can’t eat it. But the swerve about “I know you can’t have any but this is your bon voyage treat!…” is bizarre and seems passive aggressive.

      If it was an error like mentioned above, I would apologize and tell you that I was going to get you something you can eat…that’s a “FML! I’ll bring you lunch to make up for my brain fart” moments.

      1. TheWonderGinger*

        Yeah, that was the weirdest part.

        And I get that you can’t keep track of EVERYONE’S dietary restrictions but it was like well, you get what you get . *shrugs*

      1. TheWonderGinger*

        She later made a passing joke about me being dead to her (for leaving) and I dead panned, “Is that why you tried to kill me with the treat?”.

        She at least looked somewhat ashamed.

    4. AdminX2*

      So uncool. It’s why I’m such a big proponent of NO birthday things, cause I know I’d have to be the one ending up tracking it all and no one would do it for me.

      1. Bea*

        I hate my birthday. So I’m delighted to be the tracker and wonderfully ignored on the day I’m usually struggling feeling old.

  49. Calendar Judge*

    Random workplace decor question: one of my coworkers has a Vladimir Putin wall calendar. Like, each month is a giant picture of Putin. I hate it, but I’m not sure if I should just let it go. On a inappropriate calendar scale, from kittens to actual pornography, where does “propaganda photos of murderous dictators involved in attacks on our election system” fall?

    1. Murphy*

      I assume it’s not some kind of comedic, ironic Putin calendar? If not, WTF I can’t believe they actually make those.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Yeah, for example my coworker has a pack of cards with Putin pictures. It’s a complete joke and is not at all intended as an endorsement of Putin; on the contrary, it’s mocking him and his supposedly “cool guy” image. Is it possible it’s intended that way?

      2. Alton*

        They definitely make them! I was looking at wall calendars on Amazon last year, and kept coming multiple Putin calendars. It’s a surprisingly popular niche. They appear to be genuine (as in, meant to be a positive depiction of him), but it’s definitely possible that the co-worker got it because they found it funny.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      I mean….

      Is he Russian, or would he have some other reasonable reason to have it up? Otherwise, it sounds as though he’s a troll, putting up something clearly politically contentious at work and probably hoping for a fight. Given that, I’m not sure I would do much more than roll my eyes at it.

    3. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      Depends on whether they’re his “I am Rooshian superman, see me shirtless astride mighty steed in vilderness” photos, or the ones with him just in a suit or whatever. Either way, HAHAHA NAH FAM

      1. Book Badger*

        > “I am Rooshian superman, see me shirtless astride mighty steed in vilderness”
        I wish I could like/upvote your comment for this bit alone.

        1. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

          I used to have a photo of Daniel Craig shirtless in a bathing suit standing in the ocean on my wall in college. My mother was APPALLED and wouldn’t stop telling me she could not BELIEVE I would have his photo on the wall.
          Finally I said “What’s wrong with the James Bond actor? I thought you liked those movies.”
          She literally thought I was idolizing Putin.

    4. Perse's Mom*

      Counter with a similar calendar of Pu$$y Riot?

      Or do your best to ignore it AND him (so much as you can while remaining professional). He’s telling you a lot about himself with this behavior, and none of it’s positive, but unless your company has a clear history of cracking down on things like this, I doubt it’s worth bringing up to your or his manager.

    5. AnotherJill*

      Unless something is overtly pornographic or violent, I don’t think you really can complain. Personally, I would put Putin calendars somewhere under rainbow farting unicorn calendars in terms of annoyance.

    6. Faith*

      As someone who was born in Ukraine, in the territory that is currently under Russian occupation, and who had to hear my grandfather tell stories about how many houses in his village got destroyed in the recent strikes by Russian insurgents, I would have a HUGE issue with this calendar (if it’s not an obvious satirical piece). But I’m really touchy about things like that.

  50. Jenna Maroney*

    Problem I’m having at work that I don’t know how to approach:

    I work in NYC. I work as part of a reception team at a hedge fund. We are employed by a (useless) staffing firm that provides some of the admins for the hedge fund. None of us are paid enough to live in Manhattan.

    I have a coworker, Marissa, who is currently being hounded by USF and I think it’s awful and want to do something. Some background– over the last five years, MTA has gotten notably worse to the point where there are regular articles about it and it’s a “thing” in the city (fellow NYC commenters, I’m sure you know what I mean). If you live in an outer borough and there’s a subway issue anywhere in Manhattan, it’s not impossible that your commute will be seriously disrupted.

    So anyway, Marissa. She’s been working long shifts (7:30am-6:00pm) every day for the last five weeks. Because she lives way, WAY out in Brooklyn, she sometimes arrives a few (think less than 5) minutes outside the designated start time. That being said, there are two team members who arrive in the office at 7:00, in addition to myself who arrives at 7:30 (and I work on the floor above hers, so it’s no trouble at all for me to hop down one flight of steps in case I’m needed there for whatever reason). This has been happening a lot, yes, but she’s already leaving her apartment at 6:00 (waking up at 4:30) to get to NYC on time (and again, the subways have been even worse in the last five years or so). She’s always been a great employee when she’s here (USF has said this more than once).

    So USF has given her two write ups, saying she is abusing their late policy b/c our contract with the hedge fund requires that staff be here starting at 7:00. They are not taking the OVER A MONTH’S WORTH of overtime into consideration, nor her early hours or general burnout. On a slightly pettier note, we’re given lousy pay and benefits and get nothing from the company in return.

    So I guess my question is this: am I wrong for thinking USF is following the letter of the law rather than the spirit, and being accodingly upset? Is there anything I/my coworkers can do for her? Can we refuse anything beyond the basic scope of our job in protest/recognition that it won’t mean a damn thing to USF?

    1. ExcelJedi*

      I may be being unnecessarily cold here, but: Your staffing firm thinks of you as a product to sell to a hedge fund, not human beings. This is doubly true if they’re writing her up based on time cards, not complaints from the hedge fund.

      I’ve worked at firms like this, and they care about their reputation and relationship with the hedge fun, not their staffers. I’ve also worked at good agencies who understand that keeping their staffers healthy and protected increases their longevity at companies and generally makes them look better and get better contracts. I would be just as upset as you are, and I would be looking for another job.

      1. Jenna Maroney*

        Believe me, I’ve already got two recruiter calls scheduled today. Oy!

        USF is on thin ice with the hedge fund after it was revealed that white receptionists were getting away with things that got non-white receptionists fired. They also fired a girl for taking too much sick time off. The reason was follow up appointments for the miscarriage she suffered (at work, no less!)

        1. Nita*

          So USF is in trouble with the hedge fund… what about the staff who works for USF? What’s your relationship with hedge fund management like? I don’t know if this is a crazy idea, but maybe the hedge fund can arrange to hire all of you directly, or find another staffing firm and get them to take everyone on board.

          Also, I don’t know if this is helpful but the MTA has a page on their website that provides verification of train delays. Just google “Subway Delay Verification” and it should come up. My husband’s job is also strict about showing up on time, and they consider lateness verified through this website as excused absence.

          1. Jenna Maroney*

            Well hedge fund would never in a million years hire us directly (that would mean they’d have to pay us a decent wage and give benefits, hence using USF). However, we’re generally loved by hedge fund staff because we’re smart, interesting young women who do their jobs well (barring some glaring exceptions).

            They know all about the delays– they just keep chirping about the contract and tell her to leave even earlier (which I could understand a bit, I guess, if it weren’t for the WEEKS worth of 11hr shifts)

            1. Jenna Maroney*

              (The reason I know that is that USF was brought in by the hedge fund to replace a different USF after the contract was up)

            2. Lily Rowan*

              That pisses me off — the amount they are paying USF probably WOULD be a decent wage if they gave all of it to you directly! I mean, right?

    2. Bea*

      Sadly they follow the letter of the law instead of the spirit because they’re cold, detached and lazy.

      My mom’s department was outsourced years ago. They were required to keep their staff and roll over the time off benefits as part of the agreement. New employees did not get the same PTO just the grandfathered ones. So after a few years the nonsense about her PTO being screwed around with was baffling. Now they’re unionised with a CBA. And the struggle is still so real making these scummy poorly trained “HR” professionals do their jobs and understand the CBAs involved.

      Are there unions in that useless staffing agency? That’s saved a lot of heartache. They only do what they’re forced into. But that’s a long tedious process to enter and takes massive organization.

    3. LCL*

      I am on the left coast and know about the woes your transit system is having. It’s made the New York Times and national news. New York’s public transit system is also cited in local arguments as something that works and we should all admire and emulate, but that is off topic. So yeah, I think USF are being jerks and ignoring reality. From what I understand of New York, most people don’t drive and couldn’t because they don’t own cars. It SEEMS like a company in New York would be better at handling the problems caused by transit, but USF is being stupid.

      1. Jenna Maroney*

        USF isn’t seeing the forest for the trees, I think. They’re desperately trying to do whatever they can to salvage this contract except what would actually work… paying/giving benefits to a dedicated admin staff with low turnover (because they’re not being treated poorly).

    4. Jenna Maroney*

      Side question: is there anything the anchor receptionists can do as a group to push back against how our coworker is being treated? I don’t know enough to know.

    5. Manu*

      Who is creating the time cards? If it is the hedge fund, and they like you, perhaps they can fudge them so that it looks like your colleague is getting in on time? I’m generally not for time-card fraud (and I don’t want any of you to get fired for it!), but depending on how they record time, it might be simple enough to round down to the required start time.

      1. Jenna Maroney*

        We clock in on Workday, and our site manager who is employed by USF (and is spearheading the rules-lawyering) is in charge of overseeing them :/

  52. TK*

    I wrote in last week that my husband was getting a job offer out in Silicon Valley, and we were considering relocating. We have now accepted, and will need to move across the country. But I want to share how AMAZING my team has been, upon learning the news that I’d be leaving.

    They have offered to keep me on as a remote worker (not common at our company) for as long as I need, through December if necessary, to allow me to relocate and continue getting a paycheck while I look for jobs in the new city. What great peace of mind, to be able to continue doing the job I enjoy with people I know & love, while getting settled and interviewing at new places. I am so grateful for the team and it’ll be hard to say goodbye when I ultimately need to stop working with them!

    2. AnonJ*

      If this transition period works well, with you working remotely, and your team being supportive, and you doing a job you enjoy with people you know and love…do you really need to say goodbye or could it just be a new hello? Is it a good opportunity for your company to more fully explore remote workers perhaps, especially once they’re established and proven?

      Of course, there may be any number of reasons why it doesn’t work long term for you or your current employer, but at the moment everyone seems on board for the short term. Maybe it could work for the longer term? Would you like that or do you want to establish yourself in a physical setting with a new group?

      Either way…it’s a refreshing story and I wish you the best with your big move!

  53. DaniCalifornia*

    I dread work everyday. I probably cry at least once a week before going in. I’m completely 100% drained of an overall toxic job. Every time I think I could stay here something else happens that proves I need to leave. The latest example was our boss not even coming in on deadline day. Instead he played 18 holes and asked me to do his work. And this was a tax season deadline. I’m job hunting but after some initial success it’s been quiet. As we get closer to the holiday season I know things slow down. I’m dreading January because it will feel like I *can’t* leave. Logically I know I can, 2 weeks is professional and norm but I know I wouldn’t take kindly to a coworker leaving in the middle of tax season. We are a very small office. I would burn a serious bridge and really the only job that can speak to my skills (previous job1 closed down a long time ago, and previous job 2 was well over a decade ago.) The only upside of tax season is that is goes by so quickly.

    I’ve read the Captain Awkward blog about depression/work, and Alison’s advice. I’m currently keeping my dr/meds situation under control and updating/adjusting as needed. But the dread. The tears that want to come daily. The frustration of my coworkers who don’t do their jobs. My boss being completely absent. My supervisor who practices nepotism with the only coworkers I directly work with all day (they are her friend and one is family.) It all adds up to the perfect storm of a toxic job and I want to run away. I just can’t anymore. I have good support from my spouse. But I’ve been hating this job for well over a year. I know others have been in my shoes. How did you manage?

    1. Jenna Maroney*

      I’m in the same boat. I want to quit and find a temp job (w/o benefits, boooo) and hope I find something before my 3mos of medication runs out. I can’t stand being around these people another second.

    2. Kramerica Industries*

      I want to say that I was on the same boat. Then I came here and read that other people were just as unhappy as I was, so I felt less alone.

      Among other things, I decided that I was going to put out as much effort as I was getting back. I understand where my office’s level of “doing good work” is, but I’m not going to kill myself trying to do exceptional work if the bare minimum is what is accepted. Screw ’em, you’re not doing this for them. You’re doing your work for yourself. You’re doing it so you can move onto bigger and better things.

    3. Icontroltherobots*

      1) you can quit that job. I quit toxic accounting job on august 22 (heavy 1120 work). Guess what?! years later no one remembers and I get great recommendations.
      2) DETACH – there is no such thing as a tax emergency, the deadlines don’t sneak up on you, if the returns don’t get filed on-time, no one’s going to jail/dying. I 100% mean this.

      Doing your best does not mean working yourself to the point of a mental breakdown

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Keeping job hunting. Accounting firms often try to hire end of year or early in the year for busy seasons, right? Which means hopefully it’ll pick up soon.

    5. Bea*

      NO. You do not owe anyone in that office your health. You need to leave and to hell with the wreckage behind you. They all need to leave too.

      I walked out (well gave 2 weeks) before the year end close. They can figure it out. They were toxic and I was going towards a nervous breakdown. You’re more important than that trap.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        WTH is wrong with companies that people have to take pills to cope with their jobs. OP, if you don’t have to stay then just leave. Give your notice and leave. Your paycheck covers your labor only, it does not cover your labor, your health and the best years of your life. There is not enough money in the world to compensate us for the latter two.

        You and your spouse can put your heads together and find a way out of this. My husband and I reduced our expenses to the bone, to get him out of a crappy job. We could have lived off my check if need be. Finally after a while he made the jump to a job that he was unbelievably happy at.

        My boundary is tears. If I am crying because of a job it is time to leave, period. I know me, I put a lot into my jobs, I work hard and I will take on most projects. I can’t tolerate nastiness.

        Sit with your hubby and make a list of actionable steps the two of you can take so you can get out of this place. THIS YEAR. Before December. Do not continue to force yourself to work in a toilet bowl of a place.

  54. FinallyFriday*

    Any advice for dealing with an employee that is incredibly overworked and also incredibly necessary. He’s told me direcythat if he doesn’t get a significant raise this year he’ll start looking elsewhere. I don’t have that authority and I’ve raised it to those who do on multiple occasions, but I’m not getting much traction. They all know how necessary this employee is.

    To complicate things further his attitude has taken a sharp turn for the worse in the last few months. I’m wary of coming down too hard on him because I’m afraid he’ll just leave. However I also cannot allow him to continue snapping at other employees and setting a bad example for junior members of the department.

    And just for another layer, this person and I used to be on the same level and even started on the same day. When our manager left I went out for the job and this person did not. I’ve been his boss for about 7 months now.

    1. Jenna Maroney*

      I mean, it’s partly on the company for not paying him what he’s worth. Sucks that you’re the one suffering for it.

    2. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      Sounds like natural consequences! It’s too bad it’ll suck for you, naturally, but this is not an employment market that favors the employer at the moment, and not all of them got that memo.

    3. CatCat*

      This seems like a situation where you have to evaluate what you can and can’t do and plan accordingly. The writing is on the wall here. The odds are that the employee, I’ll call him Ned, is going to be leaving. So that’s what you have to work with.

      You have tried to go to bat for this employee, but it has not gained traction. You can’t do anything about that other than to explain to higher ups that Ned is planning to leave, which it sounds like you have done. You should seek direction from them. “Since it’s pretty likely that Ned is going to be leaving, it’s going to be a challenging time. I was thinking we should do [whatever the things are] to ease the transition and get a prompt recruitment for his role when he gives notice. What do you think?”

      Since you know that Ned is planning to leave, start working with him to document what you can about what he does. You also need to address the snappishness. You cannot have him kill morale or your reputation as a manager on his way out the door.

      “Ned, I have gone to bat for a raise, but I am not getting a lot of traction. I understand that means you’ll be looking for a new position, which I completely understand. I wish you the best in your job search. In the meantime, let’s plan to [document whatever, train other on whatever] to smooth the transition when it comes. I’ll look to schedule some times where we can [do all that stuff].

      I also want to talk about your interactions with colleagues. I know you’ve been frustrated about the raise situation, but I need you to not snap at your coworkers. Can you do that?”

      1. The One With The Cooties*

        Yeah, I think Ned is just going to leave at this point and you will be screwed at some point, so plan ahead for it.

      2. medium of ballpoint*

        This is a great suggestion. A boss did something similar when I left my last job and I really appreciated it.

      3. Bea*

        That will push him out even quicker.

        As a former Ned, the minute my attitude was brought up and nitpicked, I bounced within a month. I wouldn’t have had time to do procedure docs even if they were smart enough to ask. They’re still struggling to fill my spot and it serves them right.

        So give Ned space unless you just want an immediate vacancy.

        1. CatCat*

          So they should just let Ned snap at his coworkers? Is bring that up that really being “nitpicky”? It’s a pretty big deal to allow that kind of thing. Giving someone space does not mean giving them carte blanche to be a dick to their colleagues!

        2. Astonished*

          Really? You were snapping at your coworkers and being asked to treat others respectfully pushed you out the door? FinallyFriday has an obligation to the others in the office. Otherwise the message to the others is, too bad your skills are not super super valuable, so you deserve to be snapped at. That’s an excellent way to crush morale, and right when it needs to be really good because Ned is leaving regardless.

        3. Working Hypothesis*

          Sounds like the kind of prima donna for whom, no matter how useful their skills, firing improves the whole tenor of the office, frankly. Nobody should be above the No Assholes Rule — that’s kind of the point of that principle. And nobody should be allowed to become so essential to any office that they can’t replace him if necessary… as Alison says, what if he’d been hit by a bus or something? So they should’ve made sure they were prepared to let him go all along… and if his attitude begins to suck, you treat it like any other employee and address it as a performance problem, explain the standards expected, and hold him to them with consequences for further failure to perform, including dismissal if it gets that far.

          If he leaves because you’re treating him the way you’d treat any other employee who was behaving like a jerk to his coworkers, you’re better off without him, no matter what work he does.

      4. Lehigh*

        If he’s snappish because he’s disappointed about the raise, I agree with CatCat. He needs to know that you will support his job search and he can’t take his disappointment out on coworkers. The higher-ups will just have to help you after their inaction runs him out.

        If he’s snappish because he’s overworked, you need to put a stop to the overwork before you come down on the attitude. Or at the same time. “Hey, Ned, I’m hearing you (or noticing) that you’re overworked. Let’s take X and Y off your plate. I’ve also noticed you’ve been impatient with coworkers, and I hoping that if we get you some breathing room in your workload you can moderate those reactions.”

        This guy is leaving. There’s no point in grinding the last few weeks’ worth of overwork out of him while he tanks your whole team’s morale.

    4. Perse's Mom*

      It might help him a lot if you’re very honest and basically tell him all this. It might cut down on his negativity if he knows explicitly how much you value him and that you’re trying like hell to get him the raise he deserves. Either way, you’re well within bounds to remind him that while you understand his frustration (and you know his value and are fighting to get him that raise), he still needs to behave professionally.

      Have you been crystal clear with the people who “know how necessary this employee is” that he’s a flight risk if he doesn’t get a substantial raise? Do they have a history of ignoring this kind of thing and then being shocked (shocked!) when someone actually leaves?

      If nothing else, be honest that while you’re trying to get him that raise, you’re not getting the sense that it will happen – or if it does, it won’t be for as much as he wants. And if he does decide to start a job search, you recognize his contributions and will give him a glowing reference, etc etc.

    5. Chaordic One*

      Is there anything you can do about the overwork? Reassign some of the workload to someone else? Bring in a temp to help out for a while?

      It sounds like he’s already got one foot out the door and you really need to let him go. You might even offer to be a job reference and praise him for all the work he’s gotten done. You should probably be documenting his work procedures and preparing a job description for when you get ready to hire his replacement.

    6. FinallyFriday*

      Just to clarify, it’s not his specific work that makes him invaluable, it’s his experience in this position. The next most senior person who does the same job has only been on the team a few months. We’re getting new people in as well, but I need some people who know what they’re doing and can work somewhat independently as I’m in meetings for roughly half the week.

      I actually let “Ned” read the email I was sending up the chain so I could make sure he agreed with my characterization of the situation, so it was made very clear the situation we’re in.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Ask the Einsteins who are dragging their heels about his raise. “This guy is miserable here. He is not paid what he is worth and it shows in his attitude. We won’t give him a raise that he deserves and now he has attitude. If I speak to him about his attitude, he will walk. What would you like me to do?”

      This guy is probably a loss anyway because even if he gets he raise he is going to be very much aware of what it took to get the raise and how non-responsive the company was. Usually when people get this angry they are not apt to come down off the ceiling.

      And he has created a strange situation. So, if you give him this raise do you have to ask him to go back to being nice? What if he gets the raise and he does not go back to being nice?

      I find that much of life is an illusion. We think we need this or that and we actually do not. Probably when he leaves you will be surprised on how far you can get without him. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen things play out this way. At one place Valuable Employee fixed the furnace and saved us repair bills. Or so we thought. Once VE left, and the furnace got actually repaired, we no longer had to worry about one of us being able to fix the furnace. Turns out that all VE’s tweaks to the furnace prevented the needed repair from happening. That is a very simple example, I have others that are more complex.

      But more to the point I am concerned for you because this is how your company handles valuable people. So what does that bode for you in the future???

    8. AcademiaNut*

      If he’s so overworked that he’s snapping at people out of exhaustion and frustration and you can’t get him a raise or a reduction in the work he’s doing, there’s not much you can do, other than to tell him straight out that nothing is going to change, and offer to give him a good reference and keep his job search confidential, so he can find something which either has a reasonable work load, or pays adequately for what he’s doing.

      The only other thing – decrease his workload to manageable levels so he is less stressed (and better rested) and defend your decision to the higher ups.

      But I agree with others that these are natural consequences. He knows that his employer doesn’t care how miserable he is as long as they get lots of cheap work out of him. That doesn’t make for happy employees. And if someone is overworked enough for long enough, something’s going to snap, and it sounds like his attitude was the breaking point.

  55. Levy Tate*

    After staying home with my children for nearly a decade, I went back to work. Now, I did get a degree in that time, but I was still unemployed for the better part of 10 years.

    The company I work for has very nice people, but the environment is dysfunctional and disorganized. It’s hard to get a grip on what I am supposed to be doing at any given moment and my responsibilities change every day, I never know whether I’m coming or going. If other people let something fall through the cracks, somehow I get chastised for it.

    I want out, but I know they took a big chance on hiring someone who hadn’t worked in so long. I don’t know if anyone else would be as willing (or if they do, would they pay as well). How long should I stay to establish enough of a job history to be able to move on? Will my big employment gap follow me forever anyway and render my current employment time less important/irrelevant?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Start looking now. You will probably hit 1.5 or 1.75 years by the time you land something that you actually want. Don’t wait until the last minute to start looking.

    2. Four lights*

      I can’t speak to the employment gap bit, but I think you’re coming down a little hard on yourself. It sounds like you think you don’t have much to offer. (“took a chance on me” “I don’t know if anyone else would be as willing”) I’m sure you’re a very talented and hard worker and anyone else would be lucky to have you–you’ll never know unless you try. It sounds like this first job you’ve had in a while is not great, and doesn’t give you a good measure of your skills, and it can be really hard to realize that it’s not you, it’s them.

      Also, you’re not the only one who took off a lot of time for raising kids, so I don’t think people will think it’s that strange.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Four lights is right. You’re selling yourself short and after a year it is time to start looking around for other opportunities. Since you’re already employed you can be a bit picky and you don’t have to settle for the first thing that comes along if it isn’t a good fit. Get that resume updated and start applying. Good luck!

      2. Hamburke*

        While four lights is right that you’re likely hard on yourself, I get it! I did about the same raising my kids and returning to work. I took classes, volunteered, tutored, had a craft business, did lots of things in the community, etc – so I wasn’t holed up at home, eating bonbbons, scrapbooking my children’s lives. I had probably 15 interviews before I found an admin job. Nothing has rocked my self-esteem so much since middle school as much as job searching after staying home with my kids.

        It felt like they were really taking a chance on me. That job was not a great fit. I stayed a year, worked to get a certification and left for a job I love! I was picky about what jobs I took thru an agency and wound up with a great job, great boss and hours that I want.

    3. Bea*

      Once you’ve established you’re back in the workforce, your gap shouldn’t follow you around. It may be noticed but you’re “back” and that’s what counts.

      Start making your escape plan while still working. While you may get fewer replies because you’ve got just over a year, it’ll be good to have feelers out.

      They didn’t do you a favor by hiring you. You’ve done all you can and they suck, you don’t owe them anything except staying professional and not taking a poo on anyone’s desk on your way out.

  56. E*

    How do you deal with a boss who hates her job? Not a day goes by that she doesn’t complain about the substance of her job, other departments, or her own boss. Her boss is indeed difficult, so I sympathize but I’m at my wits end. She has almost cried twice in front of me in anger/fear. To complicate matters, I am very junior and very new – also, it is likely that everyone in the office except for me and 5 of the other most junior people will be laid off in January.

    1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      Oh god, this sounds exhausting. She’s putting you in a really awkward position, and it’s unfair for her to vent down like this.

    2. Be the Change*

      Sigh. I’m very sorry. Not my boss, but my husband does this to me regarding his job. I have had to learn to let it just roll off. Listen neutrally, make neutral noises, and then ask if there is a task you need to do. Ignore emotional outbursts *unless* they cross the line of being abusive toward you or other subordinates.

      Captain Planet is right, SHE is not behaving well… sounds like a situation of “your boss is not going to change” so you have to decide how long you want to deal with it.

    3. WS*

      Pretend you’re watching this on TV. Of course you’re sympathetic to the situation the character is in, but there’s nothing you can do about it. Polite listening and mild expressions of sympathy are it. She shouldn’t be dumping all this on you, but you’re not in a position where you can avoid her, unfortunately. On the bright side, this also means you have no responsibility towards her emotional needs or job woes either.

  57. Lore*

    My job is about 1/3 being the second-in-command on a big-picture function for the department. For the entire time my job has included these responsibilities, my direct supervisor has been the manager of the big-picture function. Our department head has no involvement in that function at all. After a recent reorganization, I now report to the department head directly, but my former boss is still heading the BPF side of things, working 100 percent remotely. Old boss is not being super communicative about how things will work going forward in that area. I’ve specifically suggested that we divvy up responsibilities so everyone knows who to go to on which projects; old boss agrees in theory but then won’t follow through with making a plan. So now every time something needs doing, people are coming to me–as the person onsite–then I’m wasting a bunch of time trying to get answers from old boss, who after being nagged responds and then takes charge/credit for the final execution. I’ve mentioned my concerns to department head, but since department head is completely unaware of how BPF stuff even works, I am having a really hard time coming up with language to explain the problems I’m having in ways that don’t sound like I’m trying to make a power grab. Also I hate going behind the back of old boss, who I like and respect, but I’m super frustrated with the amount of nagging I’m already doing, and it’s only been a month. I need to follow up one more time with old boss next week to try and get the plan implemented, but if, as seems likely, that fails, how do I handle explaining the problems to department head/new boss in a way that’s likely to be productive?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I might not be reading this right so maybe this is for nothing.

      There’s a problem with the reporting structure here. Your Dept. Head has no stake in BPF, yet he is your immediate boss? Since he doesn’t know what you are doing he probably does not feel like he is truly your boss.
      Meanwhile the Old Dude thinks that you have a boss and all is well. So no one is being your boss.

      Why not send everyone who is coming to you on to those two bosses instead, don’t take their questions any more? They can each email/call him individually.

      Or drag in a big boss and ask him what to do.

      Or send an email to both old boss and dept. head and outline your current problems. Then say, “Because of difficulty in moving forward here, my other work is sliding. I have to put this on hold until I hear from you and I will do other work instead.”

      Or make a list of how many times you have to contact old boss to get an answer.
      “On 9/3 I had X question. I emailed and called old boss on 9/4, 9/5 and 9/7. He answered me on 9/13. This delayed steps 1 through 4. Which puts the whole thing behind schedule.”
      “On 9/4 I had Y question. I emailed boss on 9/4, 9/5 and on 9/10. He has not answered me yet. I missed the opportunity to take advantage of cost savings and now Y will be 20% more cost than it would have been if I had the answer on Y.”

      Over all pattern: Initial contact date and question. Follow up contact dates. Date you finally received an answer. How that delay hurt the company, project, team effort. You can show this to your immediate boss or to a big boss and ask them how they would like you to handle it.

      If the old boss means so much, then I would give him one final chance to NOT fall on his face. I’d send him an email, saying that the choppy communication is becoming a huge problem with many subset problems. Ask him what can be done so that you get information from him in a timely manner. Tell him it’s a real problem on your end and if you two cannot figure something out then you will have to go find help elsewhere. If he did not answer me, I would either move forward to my own supervisor or go to the big boss.

      I don’t cover for people. What happens is I am the one who ends up in a heap of crap, not the person I am covering for. Your boss may have been a great boss, but that has changed somehow. If you have to, say point blank, “Old Boss, you are not answering me and I don’t know what to tell people. I cannot work like this. If we can’t fix this, I will have to go talk to Dept. Head or Big Boss. I have no choice as I am failing to complete large aspects of my work and I have to report that to someone.”

      1. Lore*

        You are absolutely right and thank you for laying it out so clearly. That’s kind of what I’d worked out but it’s great to see it confirmed.

  58. BusDude*

    Ungh, I hate my work place situation now. I really wish I can take a few days off, but there just doesn’t seem to be anybody to take on my work while I am away. My leaves just gets deferred and deferred and deferred.

    1. WellRed*

      That’s the company’s problem. How hard have you pressed for some time off and telling them it’s untenable for you not to use the leave you were promised as part of your compensation package (I assume). I mean, if there’s no one to do your work, they aren’t likely to fire you for bringing this up.

    2. LittleMissCrankyPants*

      Quote: but there just doesn’t seem to be anybody to take on my work while I am away… Not your circus, not your monkeys! Take the time of you’re entitled to. The work is the *company’s* problem when you leave, not yours!
      Go!

  59. Juli G.*

    Business fashion advice needed

    I’m going to a conference where the right entire is suit type wear. Due to weight gain, I don’t have a suit currently but I do have a new very nice dark gray blazer. What color pants do I wear with it? Black? I’m horrible about just buying stuff with no concept of how/when/what I’ll wear with it and we’ve had such a hot summer, I hadn’t thought about it until now.

    1. Putting Out Fires, Esq.*

      I can commiserate. I haven’t had a trial in months, now I’ve got one coming on Monday and I’m 7 months pregnant. No suits for me!

      Black pants, navy would also work if you have them.

    2. CTT*

      I would maybe take a picture of it (in good lighting) and bring it in and ask someone at the store to help you find things that match. I also have trouble matching business-y neutrals and I don’t trust my own judgement so for me it’s easiest to just bring in another person.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Honestly, I’d bring it to the store with you. Some greys are warm and others are cool, and it’s best to match them in person.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Black or navy pants would be good with dark gray. Even burgundy, if you run across that. Look for patterns too, like a plaid with gray in it, or a black and white houndstooth.

  60. Serious Pillowfight*

    Has anyone here completely changed careers? Tell me about it. Why did you pick your new career? How long did it take to fully switch over? What new degrees or certs or training did you need?

    Currently in a low-paying career, frustrated with my company, and considering a change. I’m 35 with an MFA but I make $38,000 a year in writing/editing in a high COL area.

    1. Similar situation*

      Aside from pay, how satisfied are you with your job/industry? Can you get a side hustle or a second job to supplement your income?

      I have a cousin who switched into UX. She paid a few grand for a boot camp, networked and now has a job paying in the 70K range. But while doing her 3 month apprenticeship, she made $15/hr and lived in a high COL city.

    2. De Minimis*

      I switched from service industry/low level clerical work to accounting. I picked it because it seemed like a good way to get into a more professional career, and I knew I had some aptitude for numbers. I had a bachelor’s in English but never really did anything with it and fell into a light industrial job after graduation that I stayed in until my early 30s.

      I had to get a master’s in accounting which took me three years since I had to take a year of prerequisites. I got a job in public accounting right out of college, but then had a lot of ups and downs with the recession. I did manage to get a CPA license, which has helped though I’ve never really put it to actual use, and people don’t absolutely have to get one to have a good career in accounting. Since then I’ve worked in government and for a non-profit, and am now a federal contractor [and hoping to finish my career in government.] I was 33 when I went back to school.

      All in all, it’s worked out, though the problems I had with my first job and the recession I think caused me to have to go into a sector that will never really pay all that well, and I’ll most likely never advance much beyond the level I’m at now [sort of mid-level, no management/supervisory experience.] But it’s worked out for someone like me who doesn’t really live to work [which is part of why public accounting was totally wrong for me.]

      1. De Minimis*

        Forgot to mention, I pretty much lived off student loans and help from family while I was in grad school, though some of that was because the program wasn’t designed for working adults so there was no way to do more than sporadic part-time work while in school.

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      I have debated this (current job, nonprofit, not super lucrative, I have a Masters and seven years of experience). Part of what I come back to is that I honestly lack a lot of the skills that would be lucrative in today’s society. I would guess the steadiest/best money jobs are 1) something with finance or numbers – my friends who are accountants and actuary types seem to be pretty set, 2) something with software / computer stuff, or 3) something specialized in medicine. Okay and adding one more, 4) something with sales if you are really good at that kind of thing, which I am not. Given my lack of entry into those careers, I’m always going to be lower paid than the high cost of living in my city demands.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Thinking about it more, I’m not sure this is helpful to OP without the end of the thought … “so I’ve realized I’m probably better positioned to stay in the field I’ve already made inroads in, and focus on maximizing the quality of life things I’m interested in (like work from home flexibility, flex hours, meaningful work, coworker relationships, etc) – things which my field is uniquely qualified to provide, in lieu of more money.”

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve switched careers a couple of times. The first time I just applied for random jobs I wasn’t qualified for. It was tough getting a job in a completely different career. Eventually, one place just took a chance on me. The second time I was doing some “volunteer” work for another department that was understaffed and kind of learning on the job, and then the other department lobbied to create a position for me, and I got that job, and then stayed in that field after leaving the org.

      No new degrees or certs or official training in either case. Your mileage may vary, though.

    5. The Grammarian*

      I switched from being a writing instructor and tutor to being a technical writer/documentation specialist. I took courses online for a technical writing certificate and kept applying until I found somewhere that would have me. Since my university job days, I have doubled my salary. (I’ve also moved from the south to the north, which I think has some impact as well.)

    6. Seifer*

      I used to work in manufacturing and now I work in construction. Both times I worked in the engineering department. I think that was the key for me, to choose something that had some kind of connection to what I used to do. It is… VASTLY different than what I used to do, but I’m still able to apply the things that I learned there now that I’m here. It also helped that I used my network and ended up being recruited on the recommendation of a friend, so when I got frazzled I just went to his desk and was like help me.

      I don’t have a college degree and my old boss didn’t want me to get one because then I’d have aspirations about being an engineer and he’d have to pay me more. My current boss gently encouraged me to suck it up and get the degree so that I’d have more credibility. I was worried, at first, that not having it would hold me back, but I got hired anyway. So those were my criteria for changing industries–a common link, and no degree necessary.

  61. Let's Sidebar*

    I’m feeling undermined and don’t know if I should say something. I manage a team and report directly to ownership. Reviews for staff are two way (self-ratings and management ratings) that are exchanged before meeting to discuss. When I complete an employee review, I forward it to ownership for feedback and ask if they would like to be part of the review process. Sometimes they have feedback, sometimes not. Sometimes they want to join, usually they don’t. My review of a fairly long-term employee “Joe” was sent a couple weeks ago, they indicated they wanted to be there but didn’t provide and feedback on the review form. They love Joe (maybe even favor Joe) and I agree he is a very valued employee, but think I have a more balanced perspective. In his review, Joe gave himself the best possible score in every category and my review contained two exceptional scores, two average scores, and the remainder above average scores- overall a very positive review.
    During the review meeting, Joe asked for elaboration on an average score area in communication. I elaborated my reasoning and Joe seemed to understand. Then, for reasons I can’t quite grasp, the owner said we should increase the score. I wasn’t going to sit there and argue but now I’m angry and feeling undermined. Should I say anything? If so, what? It’s important to note that the owner doesn’t like being questioned and tends to get defensive and pull the “my company” card. If I bring it up it has just as much chance of backfiring as anything else if not done very diplomatically.

    1. Wishing You Well*

      Think hard before asking for clarity on Joe’s ratings. If there’s no good reason for the change, your boss will be defensive and you could suffer for asking. Next review time, ask ahead of time what ratings they want for Joe. Please look out for yourself above all.
      If your whole workplace is a mess, your only solution might be to leave when you’re ready.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Adding tell the owner that discussing things in front of an employee like that undermines you as a manager. It makes you less effective. The employee has now learned that what you say goes No Where. Ask if the two of you can review the eval before meeting with the employee so you can agree on what will be said.

        You can use the mommy vs daddy or good cop vs bad cop analogy. Tell the owner that employees can use that to manipulate higher ups into doing stuff that may or may not be good for the company.

        Agreeing with WYW, think about what the result is you want here. Perhaps Joe has to give more reports or perhaps Joe needs to be more available to answer his phone. Get specific. What is Joe doing and how is it hindering work flows.

        When the owner says, “my company” remind him that he is paying you to make sure it remains “his company” this means he is paying you to watch the nuts and bolts of the operation and you are going to pick up on things he does not see and keep his organization viable. This is what a good manager does for an employer.

        Remember framing it as Joe is the owner’s bud is not going to help you. That framing will make you think that your position is weakened in some manner. Your framing should be something along the lines of “If Joe did X that would help the company for Y reason.”

  62. Exhausted Trope*

    Don’t know what to do about a situation that went down yesterday at the medical nonprofit where I volunteer.
    I was informed by HR that all employees, including volunteers, will be required to get flu shots at OUR expense.
    I understand that nonprofits have extremely tight budgets but I think that if it’s a mandatory requirement, the company ought to pay. It’s a part of doing business.
    The organization offers flu shots to the public and could easily vaccinate employees.
    I am happy to get a shot but I strongly believe that neither I nor any other employee ought to have to pay for it. I’m already donating my time and gas money to work here and my colleagues are paid sub-par wages.
    I’ll probably resign on principal but I hate to see such a vital organization lose staff over this.
    Has anyone here gone through something similar?

      1. Anna Held*

        Not the point! Yeah, they’re going to lose a lot of people, as well they should. Too often nonprofits seem to think it’s an honor to volunteer or work for them, and the staff should just suck it up. Maybe losing a lot of people is what they need to realize they need to rethink their policies. This is super crazy, and frankly insulting if they actually give flu shots!

        1. Someone Else*

          I think it is a bit relevant to the point? If they’re in the US and the people in question have insurance at all, since the flu shot is required to be covered, the org requiring the staff to get the flu shot “at their own expense” is really just about the staff doing it on their own time, since the expense should be $0. It’s a little weird if the org itself gives flu shots, but the complaint seems to primarily be about expense, and there shouldn’t actually be any?

    2. Bex*

      I’m more surprised that they are just now instituting this policy. It is extremely common for hospitals, clinics, medical nonprofits etc to require a flu shot for all employees and volunteers.

      Have you talked to them about the policy? They might be assuming that everyone has health insurance that will cover it, and might be willing to help with the cost for those who don’t.

    3. Angelinha*

      I agree that the health insurance they provide probably covers this.

      Either way, unless you don’t need to work, resigning over this would be very extreme.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Are you in the US? I see drug stores giving out free flu shots.
      See if you can find one or more places giving shots for free and make a list. Distribute the list.

      Have you mentioned this to HR?
      Perhaps you could find someone who has some clout and tell them. They could persuade TPTB to look at what they are doing here. They buy the shots in bulk and it can’t be that expensive. Then they can use it as a business expense for their financials.

    5. AnonJ*

      For virtually any person with any kind of health insurance in the US there is no cost to get a flu shot. It is a preventive service and you can go to your doctor or any pharmacy that provides vaccinations and get the shot with no co-pay. Thanks, Obama.

      Even for those without insurance, community health clinics have free immunizations. What I’m saying is it’s a very rare thing that anyone would have to pay out of pocket for a flu shot if they asked the simple question ‘how can i get a free flu shot?’

      If there are employees or volunteers of the organization who have no health insurance or any other options, then by all means the organization should cover the costs, but I suspect those are few and far between.

      Before you resign on principle, please educate yourself on the reality of the ‘cost’ of this policy on staff and volunteers. You might find that the push back is more from people who don’t want to be forced to be immunized for whatever reason, versus people for whom it is truly a financial issue. Don’t let them fool you.

  63. What’s next?*

    Still trying to figure out the “next step” in my career. I got a small raise and am happy at my current job (4 years and counting!) but I do need to think about “what am I doing after this gig?” Looking into “staffing” but I don’t want to work on commission only. Any suggestions?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “Commission only” sounds like sales.
      Do you want sales work?

      Can you say what field you are in?

  64. SeltzerFan*

    Curious if anyone has advice for dealing with some feelings around an empty office.

    Lately it has felt like I’m one of a small handful of people regularly coming into the physical office space. Regular work from home days seem to have gone way up, and the coworker who sits next to me just started maternity leave.

    I love that we work in an office that is flexible about letting people work from home when they need it, and of course sometimes I take advantage of that myself. But I usually work better in an office environment, so I tend to only work remotely when I need to stay at home for a repairman or when I’m under the weather.

    I try not to begrudge my coworkers who work from home more often than I do, but it’s hard not to feel lonely when the office feels like a ghost town (and in a separate issue, a few of the regular WFH-ers aren’t great at communicating when they’re not here).

    Any advice for getting over some not necessarily justified feelings of loneliness at work (maybe bordering on resentment…). I know this is more about me than them, so I feel like I need to work on an attitude shift more than anything, but I’m struggling with it.

    1. Bea*

      I worked in an office while all my coworkers were in the shop making things. I used my lone wolf status to blast music or listen to shows on Netflix that I didn’t need to watch to follow along enough. That depends on what you’re doing though. I had a remote to turn it off as soon as the phone rang or person walked in. Noise noise noise!

    2. whistle*

      I am in a similar situation, SeltzerFan, where due to a combination of circumstances, I am often the only one actually present in my hallway. I have almost no interest in working from home.
      I agree with Bea – I turn up my music when I’m alone, and I consider that a special privilege because I love music and listen to (what some might think of as) weird stuff, so I’m pretty careful to keep the volume low or my door closed when anyone else is around. I also walk around the building sometimes and say hi to people I don’t see often, or go for a walk outside.

    3. Pikachu*

      Our office is like this. I imagine it will change soon, as leadership is considering moving to a smaller coworking space. There is no reason for us to pay for a huge office if nobody is ever here.

  65. Jack Be Numble*

    Anyone have ideas about how to manage your workflow?

    I just started in a new role and have already completed the projects they assumed would keep me busy for at least a couple weeks. Everything they give me, I finish in a day or less. They’ve been understaffed since January, but the backlog of projects is cleared out, and my supervisor is really reluctant to transition ongoing work to me. In a department meeting, his boss told him directly to transition work to me, and he just hasn’t.

    He seems really anxious (and, I’m sure, is just not used to having someone to delegate to), but I’m losing my mind with nothing to do. Is there a way to pace yourself to make the work last or should I be doing something else??

    1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I could use your help on our backlog…But before I was swamped with backlog work, I also had nothing to do. I asked my boss if there were easy, low impact things I could do (scanning, copying, filing, literally anything) to keep me busy. Other teams stepped up and gave me work they were too busy to do. It wasn’t super exciting, but it was better than total boredom. I’m sure there is someone, somewhere in your company that needs an extra pair of hands/eyes. Would you be able to ask your boss for work like that?

    2. Auntie Social*

      If his boss told him directly and he hasn’t done so yet, go back to his boss and see if you two can’t brainstorm some part of ongoing work you can start on. Tear off a little piece if he won’t let you have a whole loaf. Or maybe boss knows the projects well enough that he can send a memo that says “Jack is going to be doing XYZ starting Monday”, or the three of you can meet and get some specifics assigned to you. There’s some giant hidden disaster/dishonesty he doesn’t want anyone to discover, IME, and that’s why he’s so anxious and doesn’t want you doing the active files.

    3. LQ*

      This may not work in your situation, but asking to work along side can be useful sometimes. You go to the same meetings, even just sit and watch your boss do the things and then start to offer to take something. It’s really good to offer to take something as you’re walking out of a meeting. (If you/your boss isn’t comfortable assigning you something in the meeting.) Or even, “Can I draft this up, I won’t feel bad if you end up trashing it all but it might help get started?” That kind of thing can move someone who feels like training someone up is too much time and effort.

  66. Budgets Bite*

    So I’m having an issue where my boss unilaterally made a decision about my budget that seems to have little to no return on investment and significantly hamstrings my work for the year. We’re talking 50% of my budget for an outside contributor with very few outputs and no demonstrable value (it’s communications work, so this is a thought product that is doing very little for our brand, produced by someone with no deep knowledge of our work). I’m really frustrated by this and I want to figure out a way to bring this up to my boss in a constructive way, e.g. to find more money elsewhere for higher impact work. But I can’t change the fact that this money has been earmarked for this contributor. Help?

    2. Auntie Social*

      Show him the very limited financial results. Then ask if you can put this guy on pause and try some other company or other method, and compare the two.

  67. SadMidwesterner*

    Resume question! I’m a recent grad, currently working on a one year contract arranged through a fellowship I won in college. It’s not up til June, but multiple supervisors have indicated they plan for me to stay. However, the structure of this program really doesn’t lend itself to more than a year of work- it’s meant to be exploratory and for your professional development, and after the initial year all of the resources stop. Staying longer doesn’t do a ton for me. I also frankly don’t like this job, although it’s not toxic or anything that would prevent me from staying if I had to.

    That being said. if I start applying in the spring, should I indicate on my resume/cover letter that this job was intended as a one-year experience? I thought that might help with the appearance of job hopping. How do I do that? Is it possible to emphasize that and still not provide my current supervisor as a reference, or does that sort of contradict itself. Thanks in advance everyone!

    1. Semaj*

      I don’t think you need to indicate that at all. People who review resumes should have some familiarity with what a post-college fellowship entails, and even if they don’t short stints immediately after college don’t become a problem until you have multiple in a row. You might be overthinking it, friend! Just lay out your resume as it is and good luck in the job search!

  68. ContentWrangler*

    It was my birthday last week and my boyfriend surprised me with the Ask a Manager book because he knows how much I love this website. I (hopefully) won’t be job hunting again for a long time but I can’t wait to use the book to help with any issues that come up in my current and future jobs. Luckily, there are no duck clubs or coffee wars here.

  69. Announcing Employee Departures*

    My company has traditionally sent out “farewell” emails when someone retires or resigns on good terms. When someone is fired, there’s no announcement. No one wants to know the reasons (well, no one NEEDS to know the reasons), but I think it should still be announced. Last month we fired a worker who had been here for 10 years after an embezzlement investigation – no announcement. We have called the police to stand by for some terminations, but no notice is sent out! I don’t understand the logic. I am worried that someone is going to get buzzed in who shouldn’t… And there’s no telling what could happen. How do I convince the higher ups that we need to either standardize all departures or that these warrant a specific type of announcement?

    1. Four lights*

      Frame it as company safety. I mean, you wouldn’t want the embezzler to lie his way back into the office. But if no one knows he’s out he could. My office says something like. “Bob no longer works for us. He is no longer permitted in the office.”

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Who is covering the work that person used to do until they are replaced? I’d think that would be a good reason to send an announcement.

      If I send invoices to Lucy and she’s fired and I don’t know and keep sending the invoices to her instead of Charlie, they aren’t getting paid.

    3. Construction Safety*

      Heh, around here they communicate nothing.

      Small company. People start, people leave, spouses / parents die, workers go out on medical leave. Nada.

    5. Bea*

      Yeah…they need to do a quick announcement of “Fergus has separated from Company effective immediately. If he returns to company property, alert manager and do not grant access without their consent.”
      Do it for everyone who’s let go and it’s not just shining a light on one person being flagged as a threat.

      Embezzlers aren’t prone to violence but they are thieves and may try to sneak one last thing out of the safe they have a key to assuming they haven’t rekeyed it.

      Fml I’ve dealt with these people all my career.

  70. EmmaBird*

    Just want to thank everyone and Alison for all the guidance they’ve given me on this site– I just accepted a new job and so far I think I’ve handled every step of the negotiation and resignation as professionally as possible!

    Quick question– at what point do you talk to your new boss about scheduling issues? I don’t start until October, for reference. My issue is that I take two weekly yoga classes through my university as part of the university’s employee health initiative (oldjob and newjob are in the same university)– one is during my lunch hour and the other an evening class. To get to the classes on time it means being gone for 1.5 hours on Tuesday (half hour past lunch) and leaving a half hour early on Thursday at 4:30. My old boss was fine with that arrangement since I work a crazy amount of unpaid overtime (even on weekends)– but I’m not sure my new boss will be especially since I expect this job to be much more of a 9-5.

    What’s the best time to ask if it’d be possible to continue in these classes? If there’s a conflict with a weekly meeting I’d understand and drop the classes of course, but they’ve been pretty key in me keeping my sanity during the week so I’d like to keep going if I can!

    1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      This sounds pretty reasonable – particularly if they’re open to a slightly flexible schedule where you might stay late the day you take a long lunch, for example.

      My feeling is that you can probably bring it up just about anytime before you start – you’re not too early – and just lay it out the way you did here. “In my previous position, I was able to carve out time to take some yoga classes as part of the employee health initiative – are you open to me continuing that? They’re at {time} and {time}, and I’m more than happy to make up that time on other days.”

      1. EmmaBird*

        Thanks! Normally I’d just quit the classes but since they *are* part of the university’s own initiative it seems like it would be something that I could continue. Though I do think I would skip my classes the first week just to see if people actually leave the office at lunchtime or not– I’m most concerned about the lunchtime class. At oldjob no one left the office at lunch but I was also past the point of caring.

    2. Bex*

      I would probably start with asking to leave early for Thursday evening class, until you get a feel for the demands of the new job. Leaving 30 minutes early once a week, or shifting your hours to 8:30-4:30 that day, seems like it will have much less of an impact than being gone for 90 mins during the day.

    3. Gumby*

      My experience w/ HIP classes is that management was super supportive of them and didn’t really mind an extra minute or two one way or the other. My manager was in my yoga class half the time! It might be worth it to ask your new co-workers about flexibility in a low key way just to get the lay of the land before approaching your new boss.

      We were an off-campus location and the instructor came to our building so it was maybe 5-10 minutes of extra “lunch” (also no one cared if we worked 9 – 6 or 7 – 4 or whatever). Is it possible that there’s a closer yoga class for the lunch session? That could shave some of the extra time off if it’s an issue.

      1. EmmaBird*

        Thanks! Yeah, my dilemma is that there’s another class that’s half the distance but it’s also 15 minutes longer, which I think would amount to 90 minutes out of the office overall again. If there’s a suitable space in my new building I might see if there’s enough interest to petition the university for a class in our building since most of the classes are about a half mile away.

  71. sammy_two*

    Today is my last day at my current job and I start in my new position on Monday. When I gave my notice, my boss said, “well, I hope it wasn’t me”. I was a bit flustered by his response and kind of indicated part of it actually was in fact him. Today we’re doing an informal exit interview and he wants to know what he can do better. We’ve just never really been a fit (I’m his EA) for various reasons, and I’m not sure what to say. Advice?

    1. Four lights*

      If there’s nothing specific, or nothing you care to say you could just say that–you two weren’t a right fit, which is very important for an EA.

    2. Toothfairy*

      The power dynamics are weird in this situation, but you can absolutely frame things like ‘You prefer to communicate in style Y, which I have struggled to adapt to.’ This lets your boss know what skills he needs to focus on in the next hire and isn’t personal. People with EAs rarely feel the need to adjust their style, so I wouldn’t mention asking them to change, just that it wasn’t a great fit for you.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        This. Try to frame anything as pleasantly, matter-of-fact and non-judgmental as possible, and as ways to help them hire their next EA, not in any way that sounds like you expected that they would or even should change.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think it’s okay to say that you don’t think you were a good match with each other’s working styles. Being someone’s EA is such precise work and really operates best with people who either already have the same style or can adapt to the other’s style. It’s not personal, and he will be better served by finding a new EA that matches his working style anyway.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I feel like the exit interview is like a break up debrief: I’d tend not to overshare, and I only mention things which are actually actionable in a future context. If I just happened not to gel but thought someone else would, I’m not sure I’d say anything other than I appreciated the opportunity to work with them and am excited about my new job – what point leaving on a sour note? Also I’d be thinking of my reference. Also if its something they’re unlikely to be willing and able to change, I might not bring it up, because again, what’s the point. And my reference.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          I guess I don’t see it as a sour note – personality or working style mismatches just are what they are – they’re nobody’s fault – and I think I’d see it as an opportunity to stress the importance of hiring someone who IS a good match, and focusing on screening that for the next time, rather than just someone with the EA skills. So I do think it’s actionable feedback.

  72. Incantanto*

    Two questions.
    I work for a small company, which is going through a lot of changes in leadership. Today a c suite member who is not in my management line was ranting at me about the CEO and how things are run, and asking me with I was satisfied with my job. (I’m not but am job searching). Whats the best way to deal with ranting managers without really wanting to pick a side?

    Secondly, all the americans on this site, does your non standard measurement and date system not cause you stress/issues with working with foreign companies? We’ve just started dealing with an american supplier, and its caused stress both by getting precision manufacturing data in hundreds of an inch (ugh), and because we nearly sent a very terse reply asking why a delivery would take three months before realising that to them 10/12 is in October.

    1. Mrs. Badcrumble*

      To your second question — it can if you’re not expecting it. I work in a group where half of our team in in Europe and half in the US. We work heavily with data and programming and dates in file names and in report headers are quite common. Similarly, in my previous position, I was given a data set where collected by a half US/half EU team, and the date variable entries were a nightmare. The solution to both? Write out the month. I use the Day Month Year (like 21 Sep 2018) format almost exclusively now.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Agreed wholeheartedly to the date format, if you can get them to do it. The only way to guarantee everyone will get it right is to spell out the month.

    2. AeroEngineer*

      Speaking that I have gotten a passport with the wrong birthdate because of this issue. Yes. So Much Yes. I always now just write DD MON YY (so like 12 OCT 18) or write out the month, which makes sure there are no issues with understanding.

      Ranting managers? I just smile and nod, and file away the information in the back of my mind (which is actually putting a more complete picture together, and making me happy that I have been job searching). Sounds like you work at a similar company to me :)

      1. Construction Safety*

        And one of the Mars probes only had 62% of the velocity needed to go into orbit!

        62%? gee, that number sounds familiar. . .

    3. Enough*

      Measurement and date systems in the USA is standard for us. It’s what we’ve learned just like you learned yours. To us yours would be the non standard. That said there is always a learning curve whenever you start working with new people/companies.

        1. ronda*

          well the us is still the worlds biggest economy, so we are not particularly invested in switching. They did have some talking about switching to metric when I was young… maybe in the 80s, there was some freaking out and I don’t think it has been brought up since then. Scientist probably discuss it once in a while, but the general public has not since I was young. We are a weird culture and many of us seem to think everything should be done the way we do it.

          The imf is claiming China will pass US soon, but my guess is it will take a little longer than they think. The numbers i just looked up had a 9% difference in 2017 and a 6% difference in 2018.

          If a particular company is your supplier, you might want to give them a heads-up on what is causing issues for you…. maybe they can correct it.

    4. NoTurnover*

      We’re a big, populous, dominant country. It’s like some of our other areas of America-centrism, like being monolingual. For a lot of people in a lot of industries, it just doesn’t come up very much. I rarely interact with anyone outside the US, and that’s been the case in all US jobs that I’ve held. I’m not saying it’s right–I, too, wish the US would just standardize with the rest of the world already–but that’s how it is for many of us.

  73. babblemouth*

    What is your view on references that let people write their own reference letter and sign whatever is placed in front of them? It has come to light that a senior manager in my company has been doing this, and the office is split between people who think it’s not a big deal and people who think it’s completely inappropriate.

    2. McWhadden*

      I wouldn’t say I think it’s a good practice but it’s very common in the business world (as opposed to say Academia where these tend to be taken more seriously.) So, the manager isn’t totally out of line with norms.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I think it’s also common to at least present a draft letter of recommendation to an academic referee. Especially if you are an early career researcher asking your advisor for a letter, you might need to remind them of things you have done.

        If the letter is just signed without any review, that’s a bit off, but otherwise I think this is fairly common.

    3. PieInTheBlueSky*

      I think in the most benign version of this, the letter requestor would simply be providing details to the reference that the reference may not easily recall. “Requestor worked on projects A, B, C, and had these results,” etc. Perhaps the reference supervises many employees, or was from a number of years ago. The reference shouldn’t just unthinkingly sign whatever is put in front of them, of course.

  74. SanFran*

    Question because I’m curious—if I mentioned a past maternity leave as part of my job timeline in the past, does this mean the person interviewing me is allowed to ask how old my kids are now? I felt uncomfortable with this question, in the context of a tough interview where a massive workload/hours was emphasized. But maybe I opened that door.

    1. Murphy*

      There’s no reason that they wouldn’t be allowed to ask that question. Most interviewers avoid those kinds of questions in order to avoid bias or the appearance of bias. I haven’t interviewed since having a child, so I’m not sure how I’d feel in that situation. They could have just been making conversation.

      1. SanFran*

        Actually, I believe it is illegal to ask about your children in an interview. I’m wondering if because I alluded to having at least one I opened this up or not.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          It’s not illegal to ask, it’s only illegal to use that information in your hiring decision.

        3. Rusty Shackelford*

          It’s illegal to use that information in a hiring decision, which is why many employers make a point of not asking at all. But no, it’s not illegal for them to ask.

            1. Murphy*

              Really? I’m looking at their site too (I thought maybe I was wrong) and the part I found said that it’s discriminatory to ask that only of women, and that they’re discouraged in general. (Link in username.)

              1. SanFran*

                Ah. I see. I was looking at another site that had this listed under “Illegal interview Questions according to the EEOC”, not their main website. So looks like this is inaccurate. IMO it certainly should be illegal. As if I am really going to go back and try to prove I don’t get this job because of that! And they know that. So they can ask.

                1. PICNIC*

                  I think it’s very different if you brought up that you’ve had a kid, rather than them simply asking straight up. I’d be much more uncomfortable with it in the latter case, but well, as you say you opened that door. There’s no way to know now if they would have asked if you hadn’t said anything.

                  I do think that makes a significant difference.

  75. Librarian Ish*

    Great job, great money, possibly terrible boss

    I got asked to apply for a job that would be an incredible change for me. It’s a step up, double my salary, great benefits, and would mean doing the part of my current job that I love, full time.

    Downside: word has it that my potential direct boss is a nightmare to work for. Almost half the staff has left, with many referencing this person as their reason for leaving. It sounds like this person gives unclear directions, and also severely lacks empathy, so they will often say hurtful things to people.

    I’m going to apply and hopefully go through the interview process. If I do, what would be good questions to ask to feel out this situation? It sounds like there’s possibly changes happening in the organization to address it, but it’s understandably not public yet. My current job has its own share of toxicity that I need to leave, that I am fully confident would be better at this new position, so I’m really trying to figure out exactly what the problem is with this person and if it’s something I can live with.

    1. Auntie Social*

      The unclear directions thing means you take notes as he talks, so you can prove to him what he said and when he said it. Steno pad glued to you, and you ask questions–have we done this before, is there an example in the file, etc. because you’re new.
      I’ve worked for law partners who were supposedly nightmares (former Marines so the language got a bit salty) but the instructions were very, very clear. I liked that. I actually got paid more money for “taking Fred on”, when in fact he turned out to be perfectly fine. I told him my dad was a lawyer and a Marine and his pet name for me was “dammit”, so not much scared me, You’ll be fine.

    2. ronda*

      Why not be completely upfront about it with potential new boss?
      worst thing is new boss will decide they dont want someone so direct.

      you can pick your favorites from potential questions (or ask all of them), I like the 1st 2 because I like to be overly direct, the 3rd one is a little too vague for me. :

      I have noticed that you have had over half the staff leave recently, what is the reason for that?
      I have heard that you are hard to work for, what types of employees are able to work best with you?
      How do you like to communicate with your employees?

      The notes thing really worked for one of my bosses. She had a notebook that she wrote everything down on, so when someone said they remembered something else, she would say I don’t think so, let me look it up in my notes…… answer was often, don’t bother, you are probably right :)…… this was likely after she had been working with this person for quite a while.

      1. Lalaroo*

        Please don’t ask the second question! That could cause the boss to go on a hunt for vengeance, trying to find out which former employees have been saying that. You could end up burning someone else’s bridges! It would be horrible of you, after the former employees were kind enough to give you an honest preview.

        I also know my former boss, who the boss in your question reminds me of, would totally derail the interview to focus on that. It would be perceived as a threat and she would focus hard on badmouthing the employees she believed told you she was difficult to work for and trying to get info from you. You’d definitely find out firsthand she’s difficult to work for, but like I said, at a huge cost to the former employees.

  76. Mimmy*

    TL;DR – Need help coming up with a networking script or message that accurately conveys my interests and career goals. Could be in-person networking or through email contacts.

    I am still hoping to get out of my current job, but I’m fumbling because it’s my first paid job in some time, and I’m not using all the skills that I’d like to. I want to network but I’m having trouble describing what I’m looking for and how to explain why I want the change. Plus, what I’m ultimately interested in is in a niche area and I’m still in the process of learning about it. I have lots I want to learn but am afraid to invest for fear of things not turning out as expected or what I choose ends up not being the right fit.

    Another hang-up: My masters is in social work, which leads many to suggest counseling or similar jobs, which I’m not sure I want. I also decided to put my license in “inactive” status, but I quickly realized that may end up biting me in the behind. I have a feeling that I’m may need to get another degree just to have a shot at getting out of my job and into what I’m truly interested in. I do have a graduate certificate in an interdisciplinary field, but it may not be enough.

    I have long-term ideas, but struggle with deciding on short-term ideas too.

    So if you guys are willing to help me talk through my networking message, I’d really appreciate it. (what I really need is a career coach, but that’s expensive! lol)

    1. Gumby*

      Do you know ‘what you are looking for and why you want the change’ and are just having trouble putting it into professional-sounding words or are you still not sure? It’s ok if that’s not entirely clear to you now, but you can’t really craft a cohesive message w/o knowing those things. You can say vague stuff like “open to possibilities” and “exploring different options” but you’re making your networking partners do the work then and they probably won’t. You might be best off asking them about what they do.

      Good news is you don’t need an exact job title. You can say what skills you want to use. You can say what areas you are particularly skilled in. You can mention the niche area you are interested in but make it clear you want to explore that *or* something similar. Mine at one point was that I loved organizing and was good at details and wanted to work in areas that were technology-adjacent without actually building the technology myself. Voila: project manager.

      But in regards to this:
      I have lots I want to learn but am afraid to invest for fear of things not turning out as expected or what I choose ends up not being the right fit.
      * If you want to gain more clarity on whether it’s the right direction to move in, you can always do more research. Ramit of “I will teach you to be rich” has some advice along these lines in his blog. (There are frequent upsells to his paid products but I ignore those. Also sometimes his tone takes getting used to.) Search for ‘how to choose a career that you’ll love.’
      * If it ends up not being what you want… so what? What you are doing now isn’t what you want either so you aren’t worse off. Maybe you moved in the right direction but aren’t quite there yet – great, now you know more about where your interests lie. Make another slight course-correction.

  77. Mary Queen of Scoffs*

    So I sent this to Alison in June, but it’s been long enough that I think it’s probably safe to ask here. This is hard for me to write but I’ve been really struggling.

    I’ve been job searching for 3 years now. I’m fortunate to be employed during this time, but both my current job and the search are wearing on me a lot. My job has way more lows than highs, and it doesn’t pay well. I’ve done extremely well in my reviews, but I’m not able to get a raise because I’m already paid the most in my team. I’ve tried to get promoted to the next role up but upper management rejected me. I’ve also applied to roles elsewhere in my company and not been successful.

    I’ve been applying to jobs outside of my company, with varying degrees of action. I’ve had some interviews, many progressing to second stage interviews, but ultimately not getting the role, with the reasons having been because the job goes on hold or someone else was better qualified. While getting to interview should make me happy because it means there’s something in my CV and cover letter that are attractive to employers, in many ways, it feels worse than having nothing come of my applications because it felt like I got closer to succeeding but failed.

    This pattern keeps happening and recently it’s bringing me down more than it should. It feels pointless to keep trying when I’ve been at this for years and had no results. What can I do to keep my spirits up? Everytime I try to job search now, I keep hearing a voice in my head that tells me there’s no point in trying anymore and I just need to resign myself to being where I am.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      To be honest, as my job search stretched on (it took me a year), I had to be brutally honest about what I needed and what I could get. I started out with lots of goals: more money, more responsibility, better title, great location. But when I didn’t get that in six months, I knew I needed to lower my expectations. I was getting interviews but no offers, so I knew I was in a competitive market and that other people were out competing me. I lowered my expectations.

      I ended up with like … one of those things I was looking for. Kind of. It sucks, but over time I became more motivated to move than to check every box. My career will be long. I will get those things eventually – but short term I needed to move on.

    2. The One With The Cooties*

      I have been job hunting for longer than you have and I have given up. I sadly don’t have any advice on how to keep spirits up because I am so out of hope. I feel like prayer is my only option.

    3. whistle*

      I can relate to much of this. I wonder if it would help to take a break from job searching? Maybe something like a rotation – 1 month on, 1 month off or whatever. Apply to what you can in the one month on and stop looking in the one month off (while of course replying to any communication regarding jobs already applied to). Think about what you would enjoy doing in the 1 months off, and do it.

    4. Gumby*

      I had a 2 year job search at one point, but was unemployed during it. The thing that helped me the absolute most was a boot camp for job seekers. You probably won’t be able to go out and find the exact thing, but the most helpful part was spending time with people in a similar position. We practiced our elevator speeches together. Proofed each others’ resumes and cover letters. Did mock interviews. Checked-in on what we’d accomplished that week (informational interviews, applied a certain number of places, etc.). Is there a way you can build something like that into your life? Having people to cheer me along the way made a huge difference to me.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Did you get Alison’s books and go over them with a fine tooth comb? I mean line by line. Tweak what you are doing, make a few changes see where that puts you. Still no new job, make a few more changes and see what happens.

  78. Toothfairy*

    How do people feel about flossing your teeth at work (in the bathroom of course!)? I have crap teeth and a crown that often gets food stuck under it to the point that water will not help. I floss in the bathroom and clean up any flung food bits that make their way onto the mirror, but I get so self conscious when other people walk in and see me. Am I over-thinking this?

    1. Murphy*

      I wouldn’t think anything of it if I found someone doing that. Other than maybe a fleeing thought of Toothfairy is a little hardcore about their teeth.

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      That wouldn’t bother me. It sounds like you are doing all the right things to minimize the impact on your coworkers (flossing in the bathroom and not at your desk, cleaning up the mirror, etc.).
      Do you have a coworker you can ask about it?

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      There are no negative thoughts anyone should have about flossing at work that override the importance of taking care of your teeth. As I’m sure you’re well aware, they’re so expensive and such a pain to fix!

      (Also, if you have any advice on how to deal with food stuck around a crown, I’m all ears; I have this problem constantly and it drives me insane.)

      1. Toothfairy*

        Sadly I had to get my gums cut down around this crown and half the tooth it’s anchored to broke, so there is a lot of space under the tooth itself for food to get into. I drink water all day which kind of helps and just have to floss after each meal, especially as I try to eat a lot of salad. The alternatives are me picking at the food stuck in there (gross!) or using a toothpick at work (kind of weird?).

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      If it’s in the bathroom, it’s fine. I guess if you want to be extra considerate, maybe do it in the stall?

    5. Sloan Kittering*

      I’d say 1) step back from the mirror, can you bend over to try to get everything down the sink itself (do you have to watch yourself floss, or can you do it by feel with practice?), and 2) maybe use flosser picks instead of long messy string – they’re a little more discreet. I guess it’s not realistic to do it in the stall but that would be even better IMO. I’m squeamish so I probably would be somewhat dismayed to think of somebody spraying little bits of toothscum around the sink area that I’m steeping up to use next. It sounds like I’m on the extreme end though, so if it’s just me, carry on!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I second the flosser picks, my experience is there’s less external mess than with regular floss. Also they’re quick and easy to dispose of (floss sometimes sticks to the side of a trashcan). I’ve seen women full on brush their teeth after meals, I think anything like that is a fair use of the bathroom sink.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Somehow tooth brushing wouldn’t bother me as much! I suppose that’s an unfair dental double standard.

    6. The One With The Cooties*

      I really don’t like watching people floss, but I think I have to suck it up.

      But I have dental issues myself, so.

    7. periwinkle*

      I have Invisalign, so oral care in the office bathroom is just another part of my life. Seconding the recommendation to use floss picks which are a bit tidier and more discreet (but don’t just fling the used ones hither and yon in the parking lot like some of my coworkers seem to be doing, gross, WTF?).

      As long as you clean up the sink area afterwards, as you’re doing, carry on. If anyone gives you side eye about it, well, that’s their issue.

      Flossing in the stall seems like a really bad idea – you’d have more difficulty cleaning up any escaping debris which might end up on the stall walls or floor. Do you really want to have to clean the floor there? Stick with the sink since it’s designed for this sort of activity!

    8. Auntie Social*

      Those little interproximal brushes are more effective in those cases than floss is. They feel kind of soothing, too. (At home I put my unflavored floss in the bottom of a G&T, then floss after with the nice cold gin-ny floss. Cold floss feels so good!!)

      2. Jaid_Diah*

        I like your idea of an antiseptic. And I second those little brushes. I use the thinnest ones myself, to get between my tightly spaced teeth…

    9. Bea*

      People brush their teeth in there. It’s a proper spot to take care of dental hygiene. Just don’t hog the sink and mirror. Don’t leave it in the sink or something gross like that.

      You do run the risk of blood so that is the main thing that managers possibly get picky about. And make sure you rinse the sink if you spit.

    10. Girl friday*

      If you swish with hydrogen peroxide, that will get rid of the little bit that is left. Rearranging your schedule might be better though, because brushing in a public bathroom is kind of unhygienic? If you use hydrogen peroxide in the morning or immediately after returning home from work, you might be able to get away with just using gum. I find sugarless gum fixes most things.

  79. Job title doesn't match scope of job*

    If my current job title doesn’t accurately describe what I really do for the company, does this put me at a disadvantage when I’m applying for new jobs?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it depends on the hiring manager. I’d like to think reasonable hiring managers will look at your actual job duties instead of your title. Funny thing is when I’ve had lofty “Director of…” titles, I’ve generally been doing a lot of low-level work, but when I’ve had less lofty titles, I’ve been doing more high-level work. Titles mean nothing, and I hope hiring managers realize that.

      P.S. As far as I know, I’ve never had my title held against me in hiring, but you also get the interviews you get and the job offers you get—hard to know when you were excluded for some arbitrary reason.

    3. irene adler*

      On the resume, why not put:

      company name, official job title (More Accurate Job Title)

      You’ll need to explain how the More Accurate Job Title fits. But you are going to do a version of that anyway.

  80. Llamas at Law*

    Hi folks- Looking for advice about asking for salary range for a position that I am interviewing for next week. I have been at a law firm for well over a decade and am a non-equity partner in a mid sized firm in a mid sized market.
    I am interviewing next week for a position in a very large corporation’s in house legal department. I was asked by the attorney doing the hiring for the position to apply for the job (she is a casual acquaintance to whom I had previously mentioned interest in working for her company).
    I have no idea of the salary range for the position, and it’s not something that I can figure out from Glassdoor, etc. Most people that have gone there are from Super Large Llama Law, so I would assume the salary is decent. However, I hate to assume and even more so I don’t want to go into negotiations (if I am lucky enough to get that far) without having good information.
    The recruiter who did the scheduling did it all via email, not by phone, so I didn’t have the opportunity to try to ask her.
    Any advice, oh wise ones? I am a long time reader but haven’t posted before. I don’t want to seem money focused.
    Also, any tips on behavioral interviews? I’ve been reading up on them and am preparing. I’ve been in my job for so long that I feel very out of practice for interviews.

    1. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      In house attorney here. Have you tried LinkedIn to see if anyone from your law school or network works there or has worked there in the past that you can talk to? Generally speaking in-house salaries (depending on the level, I’m assuming this isn’t for head GC but hey, correct me if I’m wrong) are going to be a touch lower than comparable experience law firm salaries. The trade off potential being an increased work/life balance. But yeah it’s going to depend on the industry and the geographic region. Check out the Robert Half Legal Salary Guide–I think the 2019 one is out already. Might be helpful!

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I agree with Indefinite Contract Attorney — ALTHOUGH since you are moving from mid-sized firm to megacorp you might find that the salaries are similar and you won’t have too much of a reduction for going in house. Expect that some of your compensation in house might be in the form of stock options and/or bonuses — so if that is the case, really dig in to whether those really happen or are an exception (some places I’ve worked, you have to be on the verge of getting fired to not get the bonus and options, other places, the bonus and options are fairy tale fantasies, never to be seen).

  81. Grey*

    I need the ability to sent text messages to my clients. I don’t have a cell phone that I’m able to use for this. Is there any free solution that will let me do this from my PC?

      1. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

        Google Voice? I’ve used it successfully and it has a browser-based interface you can text message from.

    2. Rebecca*

      Google voice can do this for you. I used it to text from my computer at home when I lived in a place with no cell service at my house (had to walk down the road a few tenths of a mile to get service and that was a bit inconvenient).

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Another vote for Google Voice. Not sure if it’s still limited to the U.S. or not, and I don’t know what country you’re in.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      We used a program called Zip Whip for texts to and from our landline at my old job. I don’t know if there was a cost involved or not, but it worked very well.

  82. Worried for Dear*

    My Dear was laid off in a huge cut to his company back in June. He’s been really struggling to find new work…probably because we live around D.C. and he doesn’t have a college degree, and does not want to be in sales or retail ever again. He’s a 6-year military veteran and has a track record of promotions/career growth in each of the companies he has worked for. But because he doesn’t have a degree, either he isn’t applying for jobs that require them, or he is not being considered for them. Aside from “go back to school,” what sorts of things can/should he look for/at to either make himself more marketable, or as potential options out there that are not sales/retail?

    It’s been a really…really really really rough time for both of us. I was laid off for 3 months at the end of last year and still am on a contract position, and his depression has gotten very very bad. He is on medication now (little win!) but it’s only just taking the edge off. It’s so impossible to write a good application when you feel like you deserve nothing, so I’d appreciate any suggestions.

    1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      Veterans’ preference does help for a lot of federal jobs! If he was military for 6 years, he most likely had a MOS that he could parlay into at least a, what, maybe GS-7 or -9 position.

      1. Tara S.*

        ^ Look for jobs that specifically mention Veteran’s preference. A lot of gov jobs do this, although applying to those sometimes feels like shouting into the void. There are other private companies that also do vets preference though.

        Also, has he looked into military job placement programs? They vary in quality, but I know the Army has people whose whole job is trying to connect vets with jobs. There may be job boards or even people he can talk to directly who will help him find openings or talk about how his military skill translate. Best of luck!!

    2. The Grammarian*

      Has he tried applying to government contractor companies? Lots of those, especially those that do manufacturing, hire vets due to their knowledge about military equipment and standards, etc. Check out the big name companies’ career sites.

    3. Dankar*

      I’m sure he probably knows about this already, but USAJobs.gov has all the federal listings by state and explicitly identifies jobs with preferential hiring for veterans.

      It links to Feds Hire Vets on the main page, which is another useful resource.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      I don’t have any good advice, but this is exactly why I try to remove degree requirements for jobs, and especially jobs that require relevant working experience. If the person has the real-world experience, I don’t actually care how they got it! And if they can advance in fields that typically look for a degree without one, I’m even more impressed.

      Good luck to you both.

    5. Auntie Social*

      Is he at all interested in becoming a court clerk? I notice that our courthouses have quite a few vets and they seem to be a good fit. Or a similar position in the county assessor’s office? Neither requires a degree, just attention to detail.

    6. WildBlueYonder*

      Google has a new feature- your husband inputs his MOS into their search and it comes up with all the jobs relevant to the knowledge, skills, and abilities for that MOS. I looked up my AFSC 34F (Force Support) and it came up with some good options, although I’m only interested in non-profit work.

      Google has some new job search tools, especially for military veterans and their families who are looking for work. The new features, available now, let military service members and their families search “Jobs for Veterans” and then enter specific military job codes (MOS, AFSC, NEC, etc.) to find civilian jobs with skills similar to those they used in the military.

      “We hope to use our technology to help veterans understand the full range of opportunities open to them across many different fields. Right now those opportunities are getting lost in translation,” Matthew Hudson, a program manager for Google Cloud who served as an U.S. Air Force civil engineer, said in a blog post announcing the feature.

      The initiative is part of Google’s five-year, $1 billion commitment to help offset how technology is rapidly changing the workplace and eliminating jobs here in the U.S. and globally.
      https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2018/08/28/new-google-job-search-tools-help-vets-find-more-fitting-civilian-jobs/1120073002/

      Jobs for Veterans Google search https://www.google.com/search?q=jobs+for+veterans

      Hiring our Heroes is a US Chamber of Commerce initiative (been around for awhile) and they host really good job fairs around the country. https://www.uschamberfoundation.org/hiring-our-heroes/hiring-events

      The danger of being a Veteran seeking a job is that there are hordes (hordes I tell you) of non-profits and agencies who claim to help, but don’t.

      Every state has a Veterans Commission and they often partner with Workforce Development offices.

      BIG question: why isn’t he using his GI Bill or Post 9/11 education benefits for college or technical training? Considering where you live, in D.C. the education factor will be hard to work around. Did he opt-in for the education benefits and why isn’t he using them?

      Join a cowork space – are you near Crystal City? Eastern Foundry (near RR Airport) is a Veteran owned cowork space that focuses primarily on Veterans seeking to get into the government stream. https://www.eastern-foundry.com/

      Institute for Veterans and Military Families (you both could use this one) is located at Syracuse University, NY. I’ve used their services to start a business, which is what they focus the most on, but they also have career and transition training. https://ivmf.syracuse.edu/

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I just have to say, I am in awe of all the people on this site who can give answers like this for someone who needs real answers. I never stop being impressed. WBY, I am sure several people will use this information here and you will never know because they won’t comment. (Which is okay that they don’t comment, I am thinking mostly of the collective knowledge with this group of readers here.)

      2. Worried for Dear*

        I hope you come back and see this. Thank you very very much for all the resources–these are great starting points.
        Unfortunately for him, his MOS involved a security clearance at the time which he no longer has. Anything that has come up under his MOS requires an active clearance, so he has not been eligible for a lot of those things.
        The GI bill benefits thing is a very long, very stressful story and so is not a currently viable option. Perhaps if our situation changes in the future it can be revisited. But many many of your other suggestions are super helpful–thank you!

  83. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

    Where I am, we’re at almost 100% employment. My whole region has been waffling around 2-3% unemployment for the last year. We’re really struggling to find good, qualified applicants. We receive minimal candidates and they are often repeat-applicants and under qualified. All the companies I know are focusing on retention efforts right now because finding people to backfill is just so difficult. But obviously we need to hire people. We are going through headcount planning for next year and looking at how many adds we’ll have to hire on top of regular backfilling and it’s starting to get overwhelming.

    So where do we go from here? I am certainly not mad about low unemployment – I think it’s a great thing, but it is making my job very difficult these days.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Outsource your hiring to a staffing agency? That gives you an opportunity to try someone who might not be as strong a candidate as you’d like without a long term commitment.

      1. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

        We hire, and convert, temps a lot (that’s how I got this job!). The trouble is that we are a financial institution, so there are certain positions we’re not legally able to outsource to an agency. Even our most reliable, consistent agencies are having trouble coming up with candidates. It’s a really tough market for us.

        We just participated in a job fair with other similar institutions – it was a huge collaborative effort because we are all struggling and trying desperately not to poach from each other. We had less than 100 candidates show up.

        1. CatCat*

          “…because we are all struggling and trying desperately not to poach from each other.”

          Yeah, that’s one of the things holding your company back from getting qualified candidates.

    2. Some suggestions*

      Does your company offer relocation? Can you use LinkedIn to reach out to those you believe are qualified? Seek the candidate rather looking for them to seek your job posting.

    3. Rosemary7391*

      I see your comment about not being able to outsource and I guess that would make offering remote difficult too?

      Can you train from within for these harder to fill positions? Eg, your admin asst is great, so get them on a training programme for the finance job and outsource/remote/temp their old role if need be?

    4. BRR*

      You will get the largest results by paying more or offering better benefits. In my field, the only other super effective method is by taking a bigger risk on candidates. People who you think can do the job but don’t really have the experience.

      1. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

        Would that I could, marmalade. But I don’t personally have the power or clout to make that happen.

  84. Iden Versio*

    tl;dr: people with ADHD, how do you deal with interruptions at work/school?

    Long version: I am a second year law student. I was diagnosed with ADHD my 1L year. I’m still trying to figure out how to work with my brain, but it’s a process. It can take a while to get into my “zone of concentration,” so as you can imagine, interruptions are very jarring and it takes me a while to recover. I usually wear earbuds to signal that hey, I’m busy right now, but people still bother me with really unimportant questions. One of my friends stopped at my desk in the library, stared at me, and started poking me in the arm, saying, “I just had to bother you because you looked super focused.” Yes. I was super focused.

    I’m worried I’m going to snap at my classmates — which I do not want to do, because I genuinely like them — but besides taping a sign to my back that says “ON A DEADLINE, DO NOT DISTURB” I’m at a loss as to what to do.

    Any thoughts/adviced would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      Honestly? You don’t have to be nasty, but “Dude! I WAS super focused, and now it’s gonna take another 25 minutes to get back in the zone! Come on, man, I need to get shit done, don’t bother me just to bother me!” is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OKAY. They’re being kinda thoughtless.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you would be 100% okay with snapping in that situation. Like WTAF. Don’t bother people when they are super focused.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I hate to snap at anyone, so I have kind of a judo move that I use to discourage people who like to interrupt (this is repeat offenders in the office, not a one time friend though). I don’t answer right away, and then finally look up really squinty faced and confused rumpled, like I’ve just been awoken. I don’t look away from my computer-screen or I keep my finger on the page I’m reading. I say “what?” and make them repeat themselves. Then I say, “sorry, I’m right in the middle of something. Good to see you,” and go back to work. I find that people only interrupt me once.

      2. Iden Versio*

        I did kind of snap at a classmate, but my tone was very even and matter of fact. I’m on a publication, and we had an editing assignment due. One classmate likes to ask me questions…a lot. Even though he could either figure it out, or ask his student supervisor. Anyway. I looked at him and said, “Hey, I really cannot help you with this, I’m on a tight deadline and I’m trying to concentrate.” He was pretty understanding and hasn’t bothered me much since. My roommate is convinced I was mean, but I’m pretty sure that was an appropriate response.

        1. Autumnheart*

          I find the Pomodoro method to be really helpful for managing my time. Set a timer for an hour (or whatever increment of time). When it goes off, set it for 20 minutes and take a break. After 20 minutes are up, set the timer for an hour again and start working.

          As for annoying classmates who have to bug you on principle whenever you’re in the middle of your work, you handled that in a mature and appropriate way. You were not mean. It isn’t mean to politely tell someone that you’re in the middle of something important and can’t be interrupted. But I agree with the suggestion of seeing if you can find a regular study space where you don’t have a bunch of people who would interrupt you.

          For that matter, you could even send some feelers out about starting a study group for people who want to study in the same way. I bet you’re not the only ADHD and/or easily distracted student by a long shot.

    3. Achoo!*

      A couple things that can help:
      *Try to find a more remote study spot, preferably where people can’t sneak up on you. Downside: more potential to see movement in your range of vision that distracts you. Upside: less likely to lose your train of thought than someone coming up and starling you.
      *Develop angry reading face. I had one naturally until I trained myself out of it (still comes back sometimes). Makes most people afraid to approach.
      *I hope you’re talking to your doctor about handling the ADHD with medication. You don’t necessarily have to stay on it for life, but hoo boy does it help with symptom management while you learn how to manage with habits/behaviors.
      *If you can’t concentrate or have trouble settling back in after an interruption, take a short break. Stretch, take a short walk around the stacks, have a snack or whatever. I know that personally blood sugar affects my ability to concentrate disproportionately, so that might be something to keep an eye on to see if it holds true for you. Plus, if you are on medication, many of them tend to act as appetite suppressants, so that’s something to watch out for as well.
      *If someone interrupts, try to jot down a quick note before they get going that can jog your memory on where you left off. That can really help with the, “WTF was I even doing?” dance the brain does when trying to refocus on your interrupted task.
      *Allow yourself to fidget/doodle/whatever. It can help the brain settle down rather than expending extra mental energy on “must sit quietly and focus!” which can result in spending your whole time trying to ‘behave’ and you miss what you were trying to pay attention to.
      *If something’s not working for you (assuming it’s not something you HAVE to make work), listen to that and try something else. If you have to sit on the floor with your notes spread out in front of you to do your work, then do that. It’s not elementary school – they can’t chain you to a desk to do your work anymore.

      Those are some of the things that have helped me (although I haven’t applied them in a law school setting). Hope some of them help!

      1. Iden Versio*

        This is great, thank you! ADHD medication was the best thing that happened to me. I’m on a pretty low dose because I’m super sensitive to it, but it helps a ton. I like the idea of doodling in between interruptions. My usual MO is goofing off on the internet, which turns into a lot of wasted time.

  85. Moo*

    How should I explain my pumping breaks to people who ask? It’s my first week back, but a couple times people have asked me why I’m taking such a long break mid-afternoon (peers, management is totally on board), with one particularly clueless gentleman asking me why I get two extra lunch breaks. It seems weird to call it a ‘medical reason’- I mean, it is, I guess, but the term seems disingenuous? But saying directly ‘I’m gonna go pump’ has led to ‘pump what?’ and ‘TMI TMI BODY STUFF IS GROSS’ reactions among some of my friends.

    1. Murphy*

      I would just be matter of fact about it and let them freak out if they want to. It’s a normal and natural thing.

      I used to just tell people that I had to pump and everyone was understanding. I never had anybody question it. My boss is a man, but my other co-workers are mostly women so maybe that’s why.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Wow, people amaze me. First, don’t feel like you HAVE to explain at all, but if you really feel like you’re in a tough spot: I’d probably respond with, “Google it” and walking away to the people asking “pump what?” and maybe a casual “oh, post pregnancy stuff” to anyone else.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      “I’m going to go pump.”

      “Pump what?”

      “I just had a baby. What do you THINK I’m pumping?”

        1. Moo*

          Honestly, I think that he was expecting me to say that I was pumping iron. This was a friend from outside work who lives a younger lifestyle than I do. He was probably thinking it was a weird way of saying I was going to work out. XD In his defense, I let the silence hang there and he just went “OOOOOOOH. Right. Sure.”

    5. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      Screw them all. “I am going to apply mechanical suction to my mammary glands to obtain a nutrient-rich fluid called milk, which I will later feed the child you will recall I just had. DO YOU NEED MORE EXPLANATION”

      And yeah, they’ll go UGH TMI TMI and that’s the point. Tossers.

    6. CheeryO*

      What?? Do these people know that you had a baby? Who doesn’t know what “pumping” means? And what working adult is grossed out by the mere idea of it?

      I’d just be frank with people. If it were me, “pump what?” would get a “…breast milk? For my baby?”

    7. Environmental Compliance*

      ….yeah, I’m also on Team TMI here. You wanna ask dumb probing questions? You gonna get highly detailed, overly explanatory answers.

      I have no shame when it comes to people who ask questions before they think.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, You have the audacity to ask a question then I have the audacity to answer you.

        I will say one time I got the response, “I shouldn’t have said that.” The sudden step back in conversation surprised me. I said, “It’s over now. You got lucky it was me and I just answered the question. Other people might get really nasty.”

    8. Ranon*

      I’d just be straightforward. If they’re nosey enough to ask the question, they deserve to get the answer you’re comfortable giving, not the one they’re comfortable receiving. “I’m pumping” is plenty.

    9. Binky*

      I tend to use the phrase “I’m still nursing [baby], so I have to pump” – thus avoiding the words breast or milk. I find that “nursing” is way more comfortable to say than “breastfeeding.”

    10. Candybeans*

      Ha! When I was very young and in retail with very young coworkers, a manager from another location came to help out our store (we didn’t know her new-mother backstory). She would check things were running smoothly and then shut herself in the office a couple times a shift without explanation. We couldn’t hear any talking on the phone, just a low buzzing sound. We were all completely sure she was using a vibrator.

  86. BusyBee*

    Happy Friday, all! Looking for advice: I’ve been at my new job for about 4 months now, and while I like the company and really want to succeed here, I’m having trouble filling my time. I have about 7 years experience in what I do (digital marketing), and am really passionate about it. Since I’ve started I’ve been putting together plans and executing on what I’ve suggested, but my boss has very little feedback for me. Generally he just says it looks good and tells me to go for it, but I’m still struggling to find areas where I can contribute. I’d love to do more, and have let my coworkers and boss know that I have capacity and would love to help, but its still slow going.

    The team is basically me + boss, which is also a change for me. When I ask him about what else I can be doing or how I can help him, he just seems impatient, so I keep making my own plans and executing to the best of my ability. Everyone else seems super busy all the time, and I would love to have more, I just don’t know how to get more on my plate. Any suggestions?

  87. Fabulous*

    I just want to say that I wholeheartedly appreciate my manager. She can get on my nerves at times and frustrate me to no end, but I know she always has my back and makes me feel valued on our team.

    We are launching a new learning program for sales reps that I’ve been stressing about because I will be the system admin for it, on top of updating all our training materials to comply with a new company standard (a huge task in and of itself), all with a deadline 2 weeks from now. This week she had also been badgering me about another part of my job that has gone to the wayside to make way for the above projects. That part also has a deadline 2 weeks from now, but altogether – at least to me – has a lower priority than the former.

    Her constant check-ins on the subject got to be very overwhelming to me yesterday. I ended up typing up my entire to-do list, estimated the time it will take to complete the tasks, and compared my estimations with my days available before these deadlines. Now, I had previously reviewed everything with her during our 1:1’s but I don’t think she understood the scope of how long these things take. After presenting it to her in this new format she finally understood why I set aside that 3rd part of my job for now. It’s not that I don’t think it’s important, I just have enough other things filling my hours at a higher priority that I really don’t have time right now to focus on it.

    I’m really hoping my estimations end up being on the high side so I will have time to fit everything in. And she was also able to take one thing off my plate (or at least 90% of the one thing) so that’ll be a HUGE help. I’ll just say, I will be very glad once Oct 8th is over!!

  88. Yellow Bird*

    What’s your opinion on slacking off at work?

    The last days I haven’t been nearly as productive as I’ve wanted to be. I’ve browsed the internet frequently and have done all manner of things instead of my job. (There are various reaons for that).

    I’m supposed to register the amount of time I’ve worked each day. So I guess my question is…where do you draw the line? When do you register less than eight hours because you’ve been so unproductive? I assume a certain amount of ‘down time’ is just part of being human, and perhaps it’s even normal to have a couple of bad days. I’m unsure where to draw the line though. If I were honest, I had logged in five hours yesterday instead of eight. The three hours would then have been subtracted from my accumulated overtime. But I didn’t do that and now I’m wrestling with some guilt.

    I’m not in the US, so the whole exempt/non-exempt distinction doesn’t apply to me.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I have days like this, but I also remind myself there are plenty of days when I’m here nine hours a day or catching up in the evenings or on weekends, and often those hours don’t get tracked. I wouldn’t worry overmuch if you have an off-day a few times a month. However, people on this site always seem to be rockstars who anchor their departments and I’m guessing they never have an offday :D As to the timesheet – I would never knowingly lie, but were you like, kind of thinking about work? Planning it out maybe? You were physically present if something came up.

    2. CheeryO*

      This probably varies a lot depending on the type of work and if clients are being billed for your hours. I would guess that they expect you to charge however many hours you were physically present at work, but you might want to ask a trusted coworker how they would handle an unproductive day.

    3. Birch*

      I have this feeling too sometimes. I’m in academia so it’s sort of A Thing that people know sometimes you have no brainpower, and other times you’re working night and day for a deadline. At the moment I have no stated hours but I’m responsible for a time sheet (funding report) and I pretty much just make sure it evens out at the end of the month. I go by whether I’ve Done Enough for a day, which doesn’t always mean churning out something tangible, it also means reading and thinking and planning and scheduling and organizing myself. If I feel like I’ve slacked off that day, I’ll dock myself a few hours and make it up by getting more done and staying later another day. It depends on what kind of work you do though–much of my work is invisible (i.e. takes place inside my head). Do you not have enough work to do? Do you think it would be reasonable to really try to up the level of quality of your work and spend more time on it, or is that not possible? Are you meeting your work goals, or are you missing deadlines? How much does it really affect the bottom line? And remember–you actually have control over this situation. You can choose to either refuse to feel guilty about it if you decide it’s not worth worrying about, or you can change the behaviour. I know it’s easier said than done, but giving myself a bit of power over it has helped me at least.

  89. kracken*

    Almost a year ago I left a job I liked and took a job I absolutely hated. I did it so I could afford a bigger apartment so my boyfriend, who refused to look for higher paying work, could have a bedroom for his kid. Two weeks ago I realized how much that boyfriend has been manipulating me, broke up with him, and gave him a final move out date. On Wednesday I was offered a job at one of the 100 best companies to work for in my state, and with a small pay raise at that. Things are very much looking up, both personally and professionally.

  90. LQ*

    I have a question about “grunt work”, it came up in the post yesterday about the roommate. It’s come up in a few other situations recently. I certainly have thought of it and used it myself. I’m in a role now that 5 years ago me would have said wasn’t grunt work, but doing it, it sort of all feels like grunt work. Even the big visioning work I’m doing, it’s like yeah, it’s big and it’s sort of visionary. But it’s also redoing the same work over and over until I get it right. It’s digging in until I understand it well enough to make those proposals. It’s spending my evening curled up with a 50 page document about all of the things that are wrong from 5 years ago, and 10 years ago, and thinking about what that document would look like today. It’s all just…work.

    Don’t get me wrong I enjoy it. But I also enjoyed being able to see people be happy with a better understanding of what we did (my front line job when I started that was doing the same speech 10 times a day, so pretty grunt workey). I didn’t love when I had to manually reenter several hundred lines from a database from a print out, but I was thrilled that none of the users had any complaints on Monday morning about something being wrong when it had been disastrous over the weekend. I don’t love the 50+ report emails a day I get and have to check for anomolies, but I enjoy knowing that things for the most part run smoothly.

    It’s all just work. Even the making 500 identical packets isn’t bad, you get to see your work done and stacked up and it’s a nice break from the other stuff. It’s just work. Why does some of it get labeled grunt work? It sort of all feels the same. Not in a bad way but in a I just need to have the right perspective on it way.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “Familiarity breeds contempt.”

      Anything that seems repetitive can be labeled grunt work, because it is hard to do the same thing over and over.

      Likewise anything that is recurring, such as a machine that breaks with monotonous regularity can be labeled as grunt work.

      Stuff that no one else will do can be labeled as grunt work. Sometimes I think I am the only person who gets another roll of paper towels for the bathroom. It’s grunt work.

      Just my theory, we start a job everything is new and interesting. After a bit we see patterns and we see repetition. After a bit that repetition wears on us and we start referring to it as grunt work. Or even degrade the work more by saying a child of five or a chimpanzee could do the work. If other things are not going well such as toxic workplace or low pay, that repetition becomes mind-dulling and we grow to resent it. It becomes a hamster wheel or a leg trap.

      My husband stayed in his field for 30 years. He could do his work in his sleep, it was so automatic from all. the. repetition. He did not feel that way when he started.

  91. NeedaChange*

    I could use some general career advice for both myself and my husband – I’ll write a 2nd post about him.
    We live in NYC, but we are getting tired of life in the city and we want to be able to have a house and a dog, so we are thinking of moving to a smaller city. The trouble is, we are both self-employed and our client bases are pretty NYC specific. I work as a tax preparer and financial planner, and all of my clients are NYC actors because I am part of that community. (I have passed the CFP exam and will be certified once I finish the experience requirement) I haven’t had a “real job” in over 10 years and I have been completely self-employed for the last 6. Since I specialize in actors, in a smaller city I obviously would not be able to find the same volume of clients. I could switch to doing taxes entirely online, but I would like to consider other options for employment. Trouble is, I have no idea what I could possibly be qualified for since I haven’t been in the regular workforce in years. I looked at financial jobs, but I didn’t see anything that I had the right experience for. And at 35, I really can’t afford to start over at a low paying entry-level job. Does anyone have any ideas of jobs that would pay decently and use my type of experience? I would be willing to do some education but probably not a whole new degree. I would also want salary, I wouldn’t want to work at one of those financial planning firms where you have to bring in all your own business or you don’t get paid. I am scared to leave NYC and my established business if I will be unable to support myself elsewhere. Thank you!

    1. anoninNC*

      You could easily get the exact same type of work in a smaller city. Especially since in this case “smaller” means not NYC.

      I’m a tax preparer in NC and you could easily replace “actor” with “professional athlete” and do just fine. There are tons of boutique firms that would hire you in a minuet or you could go solo. It’s just about finding a similar client base. good luck!

    2. Wicked Witch of the West*

      Since you are in NYC, I assume you mean stage actors. Expand your scope to include film and television. I was a self-employed tax preparer for over 30 years, with a number of actors/directors/screen writers etc as clients. The continuing updates in technology make working with these folks super easy. Some I only met in person if I happened to go to LA for some other reason. Some I never met in person.

      Start adding to your client base with these ‘remote’ clients while you are still in NYC and you should have a smooth transition. Note that I did not offer financial planning services, so that part would be a little different.

    3. A Consultant*

      How often / how much time do you actually spend face-to-face with your clients? If most of the work is on your own, with the occasional meetings with clients, I would think about whether I could do the majority of my work from my new home-base and then make a bunch of trips back to NYC for a few days at a time and try to schedule lots of face-to-face meetings with clients in those windows.

      I’m not sure how far from NYC you are looking to move, but if it’s within an easy flight/train/drive, it might not be that hard to do. And if you do the math on the COL savings vs. the extra business expense of the added travel (deductible, I would think), it could work out. Especially as a interim period as you build up more local clients in your new locale, as others are suggesting.

      I will also say that I left NYC many years ago to a much lower COL small city, and it was a great move. We have the house, yard, elbow room, and disposable income. I highly recommend it.

      1. StudentAffairsProfessional*

        I thought the same thing. My aunt kind of does this – she is an accountant for a number of restaurants in NYC but lives outside the city, and only goes in to the city occasionally, she mostly works remotely.

        Could you guys get a house somewhere upstate, or look at small towns in NJ/CT/PA – somewhere within a day’s drive, and only come into the city a few times a year (or even once a month) for client meetings? TBH I live in VA and if I had to a few times a year, I could drive to NYC. It would be about 6-7 hours. So if that is a possibility, you have a really broad range of options!

        1. StudentAffairsProfessional*

          Also- you don’t even have to get THAT far away to be able to have the things you want. My cousins live in a cute, small township in NJ and own a nice 3-bedroom house w/ a yard and a pool and commute via bus into the city daily, and their mortgage is significantly less than rent on their 1-bedroom place in Brooklyn (!!). And if you didn’t have to do the daily commute, that makes it even better!

    4. nonegiven*

      My sister does taxes for people in other states, some she has never met and was referred by other customers. She has an account on a secure file upload site and a fax number. That pretty much covers most things you need to do taxes, she e-files most, uploads the return and also mails a physical copy to the customer.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      A friend did taxes as her own biz.
      She shut her business down for [reasons] and ended up working for a well-known online company that allows people to prepare their own taxes. She answers questions from the public over the phone from home. She has set hours that she has to be available. She loves the job and wishes she had made the switch years ago. The name of the company begins with “T”.

  92. Most Hated*

    TL;DR moving on from rage and paranoia following having to terminate someone

    This week I had to terminate someone on the spot for the first time in my career. After he discovered that a position he was temping in would not become permanent for him because he ultimately demonstrated that he lacked some key skills we needed for it (even though we agreed to help him find another job, provide a good reference, and found ways to extend him with additional unrelated-but-also-very-important projects for at least one more month), a very junior worker reporting to me decided that it was my fault and he was going to wreck me, and he was going to do this by deliberately “holding off on” work I had assigned him to “mess with” me and watch me get “all stressed” for his amusement. I know this because he said as much in a series of text messages he sent to me where he referred to me by name after I had asked him to pick up the pace on a time-sensitive project, followed by, “Wow, I did NOT mean to send that, whoops.” (He sucked so hard he couldn’t even talk shit about me correctly.)

    When I confronted him about it and told him this was absolutely unacceptable, he offered no apology (he was even snickering throughout the conversation) and said, “The work you assigned me isn’t that hard, I can do it right now, just give me a chance,” to which I was like, “You’ve exceeded your chances. Get out of here right now.” I showed it to my Managing Director and some of the other Directors and everyone was flabbergasted and agreed that I did the right thing terminating him on the spot. He’ll never be hired by us again, and he’s effectively ruined his chances of anyone at a supervisory level giving him a good reference.

    I know I shouldn’t be letting it take up real estate in my brain, but it’s really, really getting to me. 1) I’m kind of amazed by the extent of the hostility that this kid who I barely know has towards me, such that he would try to sabotage our program’s work (by the by, we work in a community non-profit, so like, not doing work hurts the clients, not me). 2) I really, really, really want to know who he was texting with about me, and I’m quite sure that it’s someone else in our organization, which means there is more than one person who hates me and wants to shirk work at the expense of the community. Like on the one hand, who cares (you hate me? Take a number)- but on the other hand, when other Directors offer their junior staff to help me out until we get someone permanent, how can I be sure they weren’t the person he was talking to, and that they won’t also deliberately not do work? To the best of my knowledge, the other Directors who are like, “It’s a job, you don’t have to be friends with everyone” have also never had anyone try to tank their projects on purpose.

    For context, this is served with a big helping of impostor syndrome and pre-existing anxiety, which I’m already trying to manage. Does anyone have any good tips for leaning into being hated and not letting it interfere with the actual work that needs to get done?

    1. LCL*

      1. You won. You fired him, and management backed you. This is a victory. I’ve read so, so many letters just on this blog that are a variation of evil slacker coworker is mocking me, and management says I have to put up with it.
      2. There will almost always be someone at any job that hates you. That’s human nature. Sometimes we have to work with them. As long as they are professional it’s fine.

    2. Atlantic Toast Conference*

      I wouldn’t assume that there’s another person who hates you! First of all, maybe the intended audience wasn’t a coworker. But even if it was, this guy clearly has really bad judgment; I’d bet that bad judgment could extend to, say, not being able to “read the room,” just assuming coworkers would be on his side, etc.

      If it DOES happen that you find other staffers are sandbagging you (which I think is unlikely), you can deal with the issue as it arises. You’re obviously capable of doing so!

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      The only thing you can (and should do), is hold people accountable on their work product. If someone isn’t producing/performing it doesn’t really matter why. You don’t have to micro-manage, but keep normal tabs on project status and what not with your reports. If you have junior team members that you borrow who aren’t doing the work (or really anyone), have the normal management conversations. If that doesn’t resolve it, send them packing – either back to their own teams (with details of the issue provided to their manager so their manager can handle it), or out out of the organization, whichever leadership decides. That’s all that needs to happen.

      Also – this person could have been texting with the temp, maybe they struck up a friendship outside work. It may not be some big conspiracy in your org.

    4. Grey*

      He’s got more to lose here and he’s the one who ought to be worried about any hatred toward him, not the other way around. You didn’t do anything wrong. He did. Any animosity is his to deal with.

      1. Auntie Social*

        And if one of your loaners IS the person he was texting—so what? Now they know you already fired one lazy glassbowl . . . .

    5. Marjery*

      Well done for having the courage to fire this idiot.

      Great everyone else had your back too. You sound awesome and remember – not everyone loves you – but I’m pretty sure they now respect you.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      You can’t ever be sure that the next person was not the intended recipient for the text.

      No more so than you can be sure that the intended recipient wanted to even be in that text conversation. Ever get caught talking to someone who you did not want to be talking to in the first place? This could be what happened to this other person.

      Leaning in?
      Ever hear the expression, “Hold your friends close and hold your enemies closer?” They can’t throw a round house punch if you are hugging them.

      Where do you get your sense of pride in the job you do? The source of pride cannot be how much everyone likes you. The source of pride cannot be that no one ever loses their temper with you.

      Putting this together: You can get a very strong sense of pride in your own work by being fair with everyone. Even your enemies. Hold your enemies close by being fair with them at all times. This is called rising above the situation. Take pride in your ability to rise above what ever flies at you. This takes practice and some stuff will really blindside you and the wheels will fall off. Make yourself get back on track, in each instance go back to figuring out what is the most fair thing to do. In time this will get easier, you will feel less internal reaction and you will kick over to taking practical steps to resolve the situation.

      I don’t think it ever goes away entirely, I think some people/events leave a knot in our stomachs. But you definitely can work to minimize the intensity of what you feel inside. Insist on using logic, insist that others use logic. Make sure you are willing to tell people when they are right, believe it or not, this lessens the intensity we feel when we have to tell them they are wrong.

      In all likelihood, you will go a long time before you encounter another situation like this. Time in between such events is also very helpful.

      Meanwhile, know this for a fact. People who are up to no good eventually unravel themselves. We don’t have to hunt them down, they make themselves into a mess and everyone can easily see they are a hot mess. There is no need to go on a safari looking for this recipient. If the recipient is up to no good, that will become evident shortly. All you have to do is go about your day and be a fair minded person.

  93. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

    Well, non working coworker had work TAKEN AWAY this week. Yes, you read that right. He already had the lightest workload in the office, and now it’s even less. I’m playing whack a mole with foam mallets over here, and he’s posting to Facebook, eating snacks, online shopping, and taking breaks (5 so far today since 8 AM). He had the nerve to complain that he got 1 email about the work item that was taken away. 1 email. I didn’t respond, in fact, I had to pick up my phone and make a call just to prevent myself from saying something I would regret.

    Part of me wonders if they’re getting ready to let him go, and want to transition things away while he’s still here? But that makes little sense.

    Other coworkers are getting angry about this, too. Most of us have too much work to do and he could help, he knows what to do, how to do it, he just won’t do it! Or do it right! 1 experienced person has told me she’s job searching as she’s lost respect for our managers and she feels like she’s being taken advantage of.

    So, by keeping and coddling him, we could lose an experienced, high performing employee. Good going, management. I’m debating whether to tell the managers that I’ve heard that someone is job searching over this, but I haven’t decided exactly what to do. I’m just sick of seeing him hunched over his phone for hours every day while I’m struggling to keep up.

      1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

        In the sense of, “I have noticed that Dweezil has a lot of free time, and I am currently very overloaded with llama ear scratch reports. Since he’s able to do that, can I transfer some of that reporting over to him?”

        You might – probably will – get shot down. But this kind of questioning tends to make it clear that you know what the deal is, and that it’s affecting you.

        I don’t know that letting the managers know people are job searching is a good idea, because they’ll ask why.

        1. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

          Already did this when they moved him into my office. Nope, we can’t count on him that he will do it right, but if he asks you how to do something or wants help, you need to help him. That was the answer. And this is affecting my morale. He’s in my line of sight, and the way my monitors are placed (I can’t move my desk) I can see him goofing off all day long. It’s demoralizing to me, too.

          1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

            Why do they expect people to help him? Why don’t they just fire or demote him? This is the kind of thing I just find insane.

            1. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

              Me too. “Because he has years of experience and we want to see if he’ll come back around”. Uh, no, he’s figured out how to come to work and get paid for doing very little of it. Whatever. I just need to get through the next year or so so I can get out of here.

              1. valentine*

                Why can’t you leave now? People like your employers will fire someone for job searching or for following the slacker’s example.

              2. Autumnheart*

                Whenever he asks for help, tell him you’re in the middle of XYZ but will help him as soon as you’re done. Then go on with your work. Never actually help. If anyone complains, say, “I told him I would help him as soon as I was finished, but geez, there’s just so much to do.”

    2. Kiwi*

      I think it’s worth pointing out to your boss that he’s spending hours on his phone, facebook etc. I’ve got employees who do less than other employees but as far as I can tell, they’re spending all their time working, they just take longer. I’d be extremely pissed to find someone just wasn’t working.

    3. Girl friday*

      Well, whack a mole is more fun than what he’s doing anyway. You wouldn’t really want to do nothing!

  94. swingbattabatta*

    Question about applying for job’s outside of your subject matter expertise. When is it okay to do so, and when is it just wasting everyone’s time?

    I am a lawyer, practicing in a very niche field for the last 6 years. I’m looking for a change, and there’s a foundation in my area that is seeking an assistant GC. They want someone with a minimum of 3-5 years expertise, with experience in a specific area of law. I do not have that experience. However, I am very adept at picking up new areas of practice (I transitioned into my niche field after having practiced general litigation for two years), and have plenty of experience. I also meet all of their other qualifications.

    Would it be disingenuous to apply for this position? As an employer, would you feel like this is a waste of time? Or would you be willing to entertain the idea that someone with more experience who is well versed in hitting the ground running in a new field may be a good fit?

    1. swingbattabatta*

      Let’s just disregard the typo in the first sentence…. I’m halfway through my first cup of coffee.

    2. Penny*

      I would definitely be willing to entertain such an applicant. If the cover letter is awesome and clearly explains the field-shift and the supporting qualifications, I would certainly give the person a chance.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      If it is a niche area, they are looking for someone with expertise. In house doesn’t have time for training, so unless you are in a closely related area where you already have the concepts but not the details, I don’t think it would be a good idea. If you really have no related experience, and I were there and received your resume I’d wonder what the heck was going on and would think that you must be really desperate to apply.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        I should be clear that I am coming at this from the perspective of someone in a niche but “hot” area and we have all kinds of folks who apply for openings who aren’t in our field. We need someone who can hit the ground running, spot the issues and take on work from day one. It’s really weird when lawyers who specialize in llamas apply for positions that require experience in specialized teapots.

        1. CatCat*

          My experience was that it wasn’t really weird. YMMV. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

          swingbattabatta has got nothing to lose by throwing their hat in the ring other than the time to get an application together.

        2. Luisa*

          I’m not in law, but what you said about niche areas requiring the knowledge for that niche resonated with me. I got two new team members on my niche team last year (I’m the team lead, but it’s a non-managerial position) who had never worked in this type of role before, and it didn’t go well because they ended up needing waaaaaay too much hand-holding, when what we really needed was people who could mostly function independently right from the start.

          However, I will say that I think management at my workplace is to blame for this – these people should not have been hired for these roles, but I don’t think it was wrong of them to apply. It was wrong for the hiring committee to not think about how poorly it might go if they hired them.

    4. CatCat*

      It’s not disingenuous to apply! I went from a very niche, pretty technical area and transitioned to a totally different niche, pretty technical area. Let’s call it going from a niche of the specific hazards and requirements for llama wrangling to the niche of auditing teacup makers. I was asked about this at the interview. “Auditing teacup makers has a steep learning curve and a lot of very particular requirements, how has your background prepared you for that?” And I was able to respond that the specific hazards and requirements for llama wrangling was similar in that respect. There’s no education about the specific hazards and requirements for llama wrangling and it’s a “learn on the job” kind of thing. I pointed out that I had hit the ground running and had several significant accomplishments early on and throughout my work in that niche. This, I said, showed that I was capable of quickly taking on new, complex niche areas.

  95. Penny*

    I could use some tips on how to give positive feedback to moderate performers in entry-to-mid-level positions. I have some subordinates who are fine employees, but do average work most of the time. When they make obvious mistakes, like leaving glaring typos or errors in their work, I need to point them out. The trouble is that I’m having a harder time finding ways to praise and motivate them when their work is…fine. “Great job doing the basic elements of your job without errors” doesn’t work so well. ;-)

    1. atalanta0jess*

      Maybe you need to get more specific. Surely there are small things they do well, so give specific, targeted praise about those things, just like you give specific targeted feedback about the negative things. If you give lots of feedback in both directions, it will all become no big deal. Also, it *IS* ok to praise people for performing adequately. You’d think that humans wouldn’t need or deserve praise for doing the basics, but that’s not really how our psyches work. Also remember that progress is incremental, and praise used as a tool means you start where people are at, and give them credit for performing just a little bit better, even if its still not amazeballs. I really don’t believe there are scenarios where there aren’t times to give praise, you may just need to adjust your radar a bit.

      “I appreciate that you got this done on time.” “I appreciate that you’re reliable with that.” “This one looks perfect, thanks!” “That’s a good idea.” “I like the way you phrased this.” “thanks for the attention you gave this, your input here is helpful.” “Thanks for maintaining a good attitude…I know that’s not a fun job.”

    2. Anonymosity*

      What atalanta0jess said. Many entry-level positions exist where metrics and projects aren’t really a thing, or there are no real accomplishments other than keeping up with the work, being responsive to requests, and being reliable or thorough. But those are praiseworthy qualities.

    3. Mickey Q*

      Watch Forged in Fire. The contestants have to make knives and then the judges say things like “Your tip broke off, it couldn’t cut through the apple, the handle came apart. But overall good job!” And the contestants are so happy to hear “Good job” even though they know they screwed the whole thing up.

  96. KX*

    Resume Gap Question:

    I have eight years of industry experience from 2002 to 2010. Then, I left work to raise small children. Then, in 2015 I picked up again in the same industry, although a different role. So, I have work experience in Industry from 2002 to 2010, 2015 to 2018.

    From 2011 to 2015, I did a lot of work for two different non-profits, including helping found one (which I still help with). I did this for free. It was in a different capacity than my usual career roles. It is currently on my resume, hiding in plain site as how I spent the five years that I wasn’t getting paid. I’ve listed them as regular jobs. The work I was doing could have been paid work at other non-profits, but it wasn’t for these two.

    So my resume looks like 2002 to 2010 career path, 2011 to 2015 weird jog to the right on something totally different, and then 2015 to present career path.

    Should I remove these two non-profit things? Drop them to the end of the resume and call them volunteer experience so that my career story is more consistent but has a five year gap? Is a five year gap suspicious? Is a five year journey down a different path and then back again flaky?

    I am currently job searching and wondering what story my resume should tell. You can say all you want about pointing out a gap in the cover letter, but I don’t think most cover letters get read first.

    1. Murphy*

      I would leave them on there, even though they’re different. You were doing work during that time. I’d probably put them in a volunteer section after the employment section.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      So you’ve been back working in the field you want to work in for three years? I don’t think anyone will care about the gap on your resume that happened three years ago, especially since you can demonstrate that you were doing interesting-to-hiring-managers unpaid work in the meantime.

      I DO think it’s disingenuous to include your volunteer work in your resume as though it was full-time, paid work. The gap wouldn’t trouble me, but discovering that you had (whether intentionally or not) misled me about the kind of work you were doing (letting me assume it was full-time, paid, that you had a manager who held you accountable, etc.) would definitely take me aback and make me reconsider your application.

      So I’d argue for moving it into a “civic leadership” section of your resume. It’s still valuable work — particularly founding a successful organization — so you want to include it… but you don’t want to pretend it’s something other than what it was.

      1. KX*

        “Civic Leadership” as the section header? I love that. Is that a common term (vs “Volunteer Experience”) for that type of thing?

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          I don’t think it’s common, but I use it. It’s in part a reflection of my particular line of work and in part a way to call attention to the higher-level volunteer service I do.

          I don’t include my volunteer work with a dog rescue organization (fostering, interviewing potential adopters, etc.) or the doorknocking I do for political candidates. This section is for things like spearheading a $150,000 fundraising campaign for a local foundation; service on grant selection committees; boards I sit on; etc.

    3. Tara S.*

      Leave the non-profit gigs on! They showcase a lot of skills. If you’re super worried that they don’t seem relevant, you can split your resume into “Relevant Experience” and “Other Experience” sections.

    4. McWhadden*

      I would put them with volunteer experience rather than work experience. Volunteering is different from working although you probably put in the same or **more** work. It is viewed differently. You should definitely get credit for it but I think it should be with your volunteer work.

      The gap isn’t that unusual. You were raising your kids and focusing on your volunteer work. That happens. You are back in the working world now so it’s very different from that first job back after taking time off.

    5. Persimmons*

      Five years is exactly the time it takes in the U.S. to raise a child to school age. I had a five-year gap due to other reasons, and multiple interviewers just assumed I’d had kids. I wouldn’t worry.

  97. AnonAnon*

    My husband found out yesterday that his team has to lay off two people next month (as a part of a much larger layoff; they’ve known about the layoffs for months but had been told that their team wouldn’t be affected). He and the other managers had to give their boss two names today.

    It was easy to choose the first person: one of my husband’s direct reports who hasn’t performed well. My husband has been coaching him and offering very direct feedback (but wasn’t yet at a point of wanting to remove him, absent the layoff requirement).

    It’s a crappy situation. Knowing that two colleagues are going to be laid off but not being able to tell them for a few weeks at least. Not being able to go to bat for someone on your team because he’s been underperforming. The likelihood that he’s not going to be able to get promoted any time soon — and, hell, the possibility that he will wind up laid off too.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      So stressful. I’ve had friends who even heard that their to-be-fired employees were undertaking big expenses (buying a house, starting a family etc) and I don’t know how they could have kept from at least giving them a warning :(

      1. AnonAnon*

        I know, ugh.

        The guy who is getting laid off IS house hunting right now. It sounds like this will happen quickly enough that he’s not going to wind up with a mortgage that he will regret (he’ll find out in the next couple of weeks, so even if he makes an offer before then he’ll be able to get out of it). :(

  98. Muriel Heslop*

    Does anyone have any experience/advice for transferring out of clinical speech language pathology to something else?
    My close friend and colleague has been doing this for twenty five years and is looking to do something else, like sales/marketing…really anything else but provide direct clinical services or supervise other SLPs.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Teaching, maybe? Community college etc seems to be a good alternative for friends who are tired of fields where there is good demand.

    2. LJay*

      I have a friend that transitioned to working for ASHA in the program certification department, ensuring that college licensing programs are in compliance I think.

      1. LJay*

        Or working for some of the companies like Super Duper, either developing materials for use in therapy, or marketing or selling them. Having a strong clinical knowledge and thus a practical understanding for how the products would be used is helpful for both.

  99. TheRedCoat*

    One of my coworkers is incompetent. Everyone knows this, except for maybe her. Despite being in the position for a year, she regularly asks day 1 level questions, works exceptionally slowly (I am expected to pick up her slack). When people try to train her to take on duties well within the scope of her job, they either are forced to train her 4+ times, or they train her once, see her questions, and just do it themselves. This is an entry level position, so she could be replaced, but it is obvious management has no interest in addressing the problem, or if they are it’s behind the scenes (as it should be). Anyone got any helpful coping skills? Tips for wording responses to her questions so she actually thinks about it before asking someone else? (She has literally asked questions like ‘Where do the Teapot Reports go? In the Teapots Folder?) I’ve sat with her and trained her and sent her resources and answered her questions politely for a year, but I’m starting to see red whenever her name pops up in group chat.

    1. Perse's Mom*

      I’ve got one of these, though they haven’t been here nearly so long. Thankfully I have a good relationship with my boss, and my boss is very familiar with what this person works on, so when I get a ridiculous day 1 question yet again from this person, I answer it professionally and forward that to my boss – that way my boss sees exactly what ridiculousness I’m dealing with, and that I’m providing answers, which makes the inevitable Next Time I get the same question even more ridiculous.

      1. TheRedCoat*

        It makes me wish she was emailing them, then I could CC my manager in them. She just asks group chat. I tried (prematernity leave) to ask questions back and make her think about the process a little more, but everyone else just answers her, and now (post maternity leave) I’m just too tired to do the ‘Well, it’s an enrollment, do /you/ think it should go on the enrollment board????’ without sounding super condescending and sarcastic.

    2. NicoleK*

      Oh I so relate. I’ve talked about my situation before. My coworker has been here for 5+ years and she’s terrible at 50% of her job. She has trouble with Outlook, word, and etc. She’s slow and takes three times the time to complete tasks. She needs a lot of hand holding. And my boss is no help cause she’s the biggest enabler.

    3. Someone Else*

      My experience with several of these is there is nothing to be done. Management took two years to act on the last one we had. If you ever pick up her slack, she’ll bank on it. If the higher ups require you to pick up her slack, they’re banking on it. The best way to fix the situation is 1) management that actually does its job (which already seems like a nope) or 2) let is fail so they can’t ignore it anymore.
      So, if you can, stop helping. Short answers: I went over this in training. You’re responsible for knowing this now. Sorry I can’t do it for you I have to prioritize my own work. Etc (don’t say them all at once, those are just options.) Unless you’ll get dinged for it, stop helping. It needs to hurt someone other than you for anything to happen. If you help, the inconvenience stops at you and allows others to consider the situation fine. But it’s not fine. And you have my sympathies.

  100. Confused Publisher*

    I’m a book editor, and I’m doing some database administration at the moment to clean up some old book records.
    My favourite accidental book title has been ‘Early Ham Builders in Britain’. I’m almost disappointed at having to substitute ‘Dam’.
    What are the funniest spelling mistakes you’ve encountered at work?

    1. TheRedCoat*

      Not a typo, but I am endlessly amused when people write their occupation as ‘Ass Manager’ on their paperwork… because I am 12.

    3. De Minimis*

      One of the directors at my last job was notorious for having spelling mishaps when sending messages on her phone, the best of which was her offer to donate “dick leave” to an employee in crisis.

      2. BusyBee*

        My coworker once sent an out of office message explaining that she was “taking a dick day”…. I am not super paranoid anytime I have to explain that I’m sick.

        1. Autumnheart*

          I got an email from a coworker who was working from home, but his subject line read “WTF today” instead of “WFH today”.

      4. TheTallestOneEver*

        Along the same line, one Friday before a Daylight Savings Time clock change, our director sent out an all employee email to remind us to “set our cocks back”.

    4. Typos*

      Construction directions that instead seemed to refer to a religious enema.

      Flushing out the pope =/= flushing out the pipe.

    5. Mrs. Fenris*

      I once typed a prescription label that was supposed to say “Give as a single dose” as “Give ass a single dose.” Receptionist caught it before it got given to the pet owner.

    7. July*

      Someone once wrote in his bio that he loved “historic farts,” an error I caught and corrected. Forts! He liked forts.

      I also once got an email about the City University of New York with a T instead of a Y in the abbreviation.

    8. Dankar*

      The woman in my position before me wrote a (virtually useless) handover document. She titled it “For Predecessor.” I get a kick out of it every time I see it in the shared drives.

    9. ToodieCat*

      Many years ago I worked for a small group of weekly newspapers just outside of the Twin Cities. Part of my editor’s job was to check the Minneapolis Star/Tribune every day for news/events related to our coverage area. One days she spotted a huge quarter page ad for a PUBLIC AUCTION … but they left the L out of “public.” Heh heh heh.

    11. Auntie Social*

      An assistant who kept typing “now here to be seen” instead of “nowhere to be seen” . . . and didn’t see the difference.

    12. Justin*

      I work in child support, and have to look at records, which usually include a description of the parent they’re looking for. Sometimes people type sloppily.

      For example, a particular fellow was reported to be “5’6-6’9, JAOR (hair? I think it was hair) Black, 3000 pounds.” Our government at work, I guess.

    13. Anonymosity*

      I think I’ve mentioned this one before. I used to work at a weekly shopping paper, helping customers write ads. As an example of why it was important to proofread them before posting, a coworker told me that one time they ran an ad for this older woman who was selling a small organ, one of those home models that had the preset percussion buttons. Only the CSR somehow wrote “orgasm” in the ad instead.

      They had to run the corrected ad for free for the poor customer until the damn thing sold.

    14. Miss Wels*

      My coworker requested Adobe LiveCycle from our manager but when she emailed the request put “LiceCycle” in the subject line.

    15. Penny Hartz*

      I used to be the editor-in-chief of a local entertainment paper. One issue, we actually spelled the name of our state wrong: “Wisocnsin” instead of “Wisconsin”. On the cover. We all felt awful until the next day, when the local paper came out and an ad for a supermarket advertised “Crinkle Cu*t” fries. There was, in fact, an n where I just placed a *.

    16. ThatGirl*

      I used to work on product descriptions for an office supply catalog that had an online component. Once someone went through a category and updated all the color abbreviations, so BE became Blue, only they didn’t take all the product names into account. So Iceberg brand became IceBluerg and it got published on the web!

    18. No Tribble At All*

      On some of our hardware, we have what’s called ‘squibs’ — basically a dummy version of the real device. I got pretty hungry after constantly seeing “squid valves” in the documentation.

    19. Autumnheart*

      I work in consumer electronics, and at our weekly project review meeting, one of the projects was for a sale on Martian Logan home audio. (Instead of Martin Logan)

      Now that brand is Martian Logan forever to me.

  101. Persephone Mulberry*

    I have to get out of this temp job ASAP. I think I posted shortly after I started my current temp job in July that it turned out my direct supervisor is the older sister of one of my closest friends. It’s becoming more and more apparent that my supervisor has much looser boundaries between work and personal life than I’m comfortable with, and the boundaries are getting even more blurry as my friend/her sister was diagnosed with stage IV cancer a week ago.

    It doesn’t help that the other temp on the team doesn’t understand how to STAY IN HER LANE and leave the tasks assigned to me alone, which screws up my workflow. We’re in this lull period where there’s not enough work to go around, but they don’t want to cut anybody because more work will be coming in in the next couple weeks, so they’re okay with paying us to twiddle our thumbs a good portion of the day.

    So, an actual question: I’m coming up on 2.5 months in this job. It’s a basic data entry role and doesn’t add anything to my qualifications other than filling a resume gap – I was unemployed for 2.5 months before I started here so if I leave it off, I have a 5-month gap (and growing, depending on how long it takes me to find a job). Put it on my resume or leave it off?

    1. Doug Judy*

      Can you reach out to your temp agency and see if they have a different assignment you could get in on? You can explain why this situation is not working for you or the client. They might be able to work with you to get something else. Then you your resume you could list

      TEMP AGENCY Dates
      Employer 1 – MM/YY – MM/YY

      Employer 2 MM/YY – MM/YY

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Generally speaking, agencies aren’t keen to pull people from one assignment to put them on another. It can cause problems in their relationship with the client they pull from. The caveat would be if they have someone else they can send to fill that position.

        It’s still worth having a conversation with the agency though.

    2. Auntie Social*

      Can you ask a supervisor if there are any dreaded jobs you can do in the meantime? Purge dead files? Scan old files, clean the library or kitchen, anything. Start making next year’s office admin files–just make ones identical to what’s there now, but with ‘2019’.

  102. Miss Marjoribanks*

    This morning i phoned my local privatized public utility and said, “I think one of your employees is having a breakdown in the middle of the street.” She spent a good fifteen minutes walking in circles shouting “for the love of Jesus”. I thought she was a homeless woman until I saw the hi-vis vest and the utility pickup truck. The truck is hard to fake, especially since she was there yesterday in a different truck

    I was going to let it go, but then I thought, “Do I want this to be the person mapping where the gas mains are?” I hope the job conditions are functional, and they won’t just punish her right away and also she isn’t so protected by unions that they can’t do anything.

    I’m a little shook up. But as aam always says, it’s not tattling, it’s important feedback on her job performance.

    1. LCL*

      Union protections are all about wages, hours, and working conditions. I am confident in saying that if she is a union member, her union would want her employer to send her to the medical treatment she needs.

      The tattling vs job performance comparison is too flippant for this incident, even for me.

    2. atalanta0jess*

      Another perspective: It’s not even feedback on her job performance, it’s notifying her employer that she may be having a medical emergency.

      I’d ask you to reconsider “do I want this person mapping where the gas mains are” though. Many people have temporary psychiatric disturbances and are still great workers. Do we want her mapping the gas mains RIGHT NOW? Probably not. But in general? I wouldn’t make any assumptions about her performance.

      1. here and now*

        Oops, I meant to say I think if you suspect a medical problem, you could actually skip calling the employer and go straight to enlisting emergency services for help. And thank you for speaking up about the behavior.

  103. Kristi E.*

    How do you dial back from the BEC phase with a co-worker? I’ve had run ins with one of our salesman several times. And they have all been resolved. But anything and I mean anything this salesman asks me about, I fly into this rage. Today incident started with an email request to send a copy of a teapot report that is generated periodically to another party. Not a big deal at all. But I took it badly because I dislike the guy so much. It would not add any extra work. But I took it so badly that I had to spend more time dealing with it than it called for. I’ve got to get a handle on it but I don’t know how.

    1. LQ*

      It’s sometimes helpful to find something (anything) about that person you like and try to focus on that. Curt who Cares is my guy that I’m prone to dipping into BEC with. There is so much to despise about him personally. And professionally he’s not that great. But he Cares. For better and for worse he Cares. So I just try to keep that in mind and it helps me get to a more shruggy place with him. I’ll never be happy about it, but I can get to shrug.

      I’d also be very cautious about venting or bitching about this person, even to family and friends. Try to just do the thing and put it out of your mind, even when it wants to haunt you until it explodes forth from your lips unbidden. Hold it in. It pops into your brain shoe it away with thoughts of puppies or cupcakes or sports victory, something that will make you smile. Then next thought.
      BEC GUY IS HORRIBLE. Puppies! Puppies running around and going so fast they tip over! Awww! So about those TPS reports.
      Over and over.

  104. Scubacat*

    I’m wondering if I could have handled this gender conversation better. Earlier this week, I was meeting my friend Jordan at a coffee shop. Jordan asked me if a mutual acquaintance, Alex, was a man or a woman. (Alex is a transgender person.) I said something along the lines of “It doesn’t matter if Alex is a man or a woman. People can have different body shapes, and sometimes individuals don’t fit in clearly defined boxes. This is okay.”
    The conversation overall was positive, and Jordan ment no harm.

    Now, I know Alex a little bit and she always introduces herself as female. She is somewhere in the early stages of transitioning. Should I have just said, “Alex is a woman.”?

    2. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      It seems like Jordan just had a clumsy way of asking Alex’s preferred pronouns, and Jordan just wanted to use the proper ones while referencing her in the context of the conversation. Maybe Jordan thinks you know Alex better, so you would know her preferred pronouns better than Jordan does? I think just saying that Alex is a woman is enough of an answer, and I don’t see the need to bring up being trans especially if Alex introduces herself as female and prefers “her/hers” pronouns. If I were Jordan personally, I would have found your answer a bit combative, but knowing this context I understand where you were coming from so I don’t hold it against you.

      1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

        You also could have just said that Alex is in the stages of transitioning and prefers female pronouns or some variation of that. I don’t know, I have a friend who tends to give answers like the one you did and I always feel like I’m being lectured on a relatively innocent question when that happens. And then the question doesn’t end up answered anyway.

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah, answer the question you WISHED he’d asked, maybe. “I think Alex prefers to use the pronouns X and Y” would have been a good response.

        1. Scubacat*

          It’s a long story but Jordon wasn’t asking to find out which pronoun Alex prefers. Jordon saw Alex, and I expect was confused.

    3. mousymousy*

      Yes, you should have said “Alex is a woman.” A. Because adding weird qualifications about her gender disrespects her identity and B. because she introduces herself as such, and beyond that her transition isn’t really anybody’s business.

      It’s good that it was a positive conversation, but turning it into a Big Thing is not a particularly helpful thing to do, especially since it sounds you’re not close to Alex and don’t have a sense of how she would want her identity to be discussed.

      1. Scubacat*

        It probably would have been simpler to say that Alex is a woman!
        I thought it was weird that Jordan asked about Alex when they don’t know each other. Nor did I think it was my place to make it a Big Thing and talk about transgender issues.

        The conversation started more like this…

        Jordon: Is Alex a man or a woman?
        Me: Huh?
        Jordon: Because Alex looks weird and I can’t tell.

        1. zora*

          Oyyyyy. In that context, I think you did exactly the right thing!!! You educated Jordon a tiny bit on trans-inclusion. Good job. The best thing to do is to keep modeling the inclusive and supportive way to interact with trans folks.

      2. atalanta0jess*

        THIS.

        Don’t out people as trans. I get that you didn’t do that explicitly, but still. Identify people the way they identify themselves. And the thing is, it DOES matter if someone is a man or a woman, just like the whole “color blind” thing is kind of disrespectful to people of color. It matters because it is a part of her identity. She IS a woman. So if/when you’re asked, the answer is that she is a woman. Not that it doesn’t matter what she is. She’s a woman.

        Honestly though, I don’t really even know what the question means, except “what pronouns should I use?” OR “give me personal details about this person that are not my business.” So I think a good course of action would be to answer about pronouns or identity ONLY, full stop. If you’re pressed, the answer is “I don’t know, and I really don’t think its my business or yours. Did you know she has three corgis? (or, loves to knit, or is an expert on whatever).” And as a side note, that’s the answer even when you feel relatively sure the person is cis gendered.

    5. Bea*

      Always lead in with “she’s a woman” because that’s the truth and clears the confusion. The thing with transitioning is gender is important. So your argument is great when its men are better than women but not identity.

  105. Villanelle*

    I need to work on my communication skills specifically relating to phone calls. Does anyone have any advice for me or where I should look for help?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I would need more specifics, I think. Is it that you have trouble making phone calls (this seems to be common in the younger set who doesn’t use the phone as much) or that you’re having trouble paying attention, capturing the key points, getting through the interaction smoothly – etc? Is it a tone thing? Just not sounding polished and professional enough? Each of these problems would likely have a different approach.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Sometimes when it is me calling to advise someone I write things down and have a little script that I can read to the person I am talking to. It makes things a little easier.

  106. LALAs*

    When asking for a raise, how do you respond when you are told it isn’t possible because then they would have to increase the salary for everyone at that level? For contexts, yes this is a non-profit so there is always a tight budget and everyone here (with the exception of the ED and possibly the second in command) are paid poorly. In fact, the assistant position under me is so poorly paid that I have had 3 assistants in 18 months.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Ugh, I have had this. To me, it meant it was time to start job searching, because obviously they were unwilling/unable to give me personally the salary I felt I deserved. It doesn’t really matter why they feel this way, they’re saying that they can’t/won’t.

    2. BRR*

      I would just take that as their way of saying no. You could ask for something else like more vacation or some WFH days or possibly say something about how this is just for your performance but that response seems like a hard.

  107. NeedaChange*

    Related to my first post, my husband’s situation – we live in NYC and are both completely self-employed, and want to move to a smaller city and be able to find a job. My husband works full-time as a tutor in very hard to find math and computer science subjects – algorithms, complex analysis, logic, topology. He knows a little bit about everything, various programming languages (he has taught himself Python and Java and he is working on R) and of course knows a lot of math and statistics. However, he is totally self-taught and doesn’t have degrees in any of theses things, he has a masters in Philosophy. And while he is a very nice person, he can be very stubborn and independent which is why he has preferred self-employment all these years. Like me, he hasn’t had a “real job” since leaving grad school. (He worked for a few years between undergrad and grad, but that was 10 years ago) He also has no idea what sort of jobs he might qualify for (and he definitely would not be a good high school teacher). My understanding is that in tech, they care much more about your actual abilities than education, but he doesn’t have any real experience applying these things, just tutoring college students in the subjects. Is there anyone familiar with the tech world and can advise on his job prospects? Or is there something he could do with his math and statistics knowledge, despite not having a degree in those things? Thank you!

    1. Kj*

      I hate to say it, but none of the things you are saying bodes well for him to get a traditional job, even in tech. Self-teaching a computer language is nice, but not special in todays world. A smaller start-up might be willing to take a chance if he had skills they needed, but it sounds like he lacks practical skills in tech (Python and Java are nice, but new grad in comp sci who know them are not hard to find). Also, big tech companies do tend to require degrees these days. His best bet, if he is interested in tech, might be to do a coding boot camp program to try for a tech job. He might be able to leverage that + a MA to be equal to a degree needed for an entry level tech job at a smaller place. I’m also slightly worried about your description of his personality- tech is a team-based field in many ways and people who don’t get that sometimes don’t thrive.

      Would he consider going back to school? Statistics is in demand in my area, but they do want to see a degree.

      1. Kj*

        My husband the techie also suggest that maybe a portfolio of programming projects could help. But still, he’s going to run into the requirement of a degree. A coding boot camp would start him on a portfolio.

    3. Turtle*

      Data analyst, business systems analyst, programmer. Marketing research as well. There are many jobs there and many are well paid.

        1. Kj*

          Most folks in those roles in my area have a minimum of an MA in computer science or data analysis. Many have a Ph.D as well. I don’t want to throw cold water on this, but tech is not nearly as friendly to people without degrees as its reputation would lead people to think. Maybe that is less true in smaller markets (I’m in a major city) but the jobs suggested require degrees these days in major cities.

          1. Turtle*

            Business systems analyst – definitely not. This title can mean anything, they usually just want someone capable of critical thinking.

            I’m not sure about the others, might be a good idea to go through jobs ads and see what’s required for those roles

    4. nonegiven*

      Github.

      Join open source projects and commit code patches.

      Some of those people will be in a position to hire.

    5. Autumnheart*

      Being the kind of “stubborn and independent” guy who doesn’t get along well in traditional work environments doesn’t make him very suited for tech. If you want to work on a collaborative project, you can’t be a cowboy who won’t listen. A lot of workplaces are applying Agile methodology to one degree or another, and that isn’t an environment that works well for people who need to be the smartest guy in the room.

  108. Turtle*

    What do you think of including my immigration status on my resume? I have a green card but the majority of my work experience and my education is from outside of the US and I have a very obviously foreign name. My ethnicity is not discriminated against in the US though. Also, I have one year of work experience in the US, all temp jobs and I’m even currently employed, so I guess it’s obvious I’m authorized to work in the US? I’m in CA and I’ve worked with many people with non Anglo-Saxon names and it seems normal here, so I don’t know if my name prevents me from getting interviews. Also, my first name is not hard to pronounce but it throws people off at first and I’m wondering whether to include my nickname in my resume. I actually prefer my nickname and I dislike people calling me by my full name but it just seems so unprofessional to put in on my resume and in my native language, it looks ridiculous to use a nickname in combination with your last name, so I just can’t get over that. So what do you all think I should do?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you don’t use your full name, I wouldn’t put it on your resume. And if you’re not writing it in your native language, I wouldn’t worry that it would ridiculous in that language. In English it’s fine. (I’m assuming your nickname is something like Katie or Billy and not something like Sparkle or Turtle.)

      1. Turtle*

        But if an employer wants to Google me, everything online is under my full name. I use it in writing or when I introduce myself to people. I guess I’m just used to it because everyone in my country knows what the nickname for my full name is and they start using it immediately after hearing my name if it’s a casual situation. Not for a job interview though, it just feels not right and I can’t get over this.

        1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

          In the US, it’s very common for people to exclusively go by and use their nicknames in professional circumstances.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          Oh, I thought you used only your nickname professionally. In that case, what about Nickname (Actualfirstname) Lastname? Or, in your resume/CV, list your publications like so:

          Publication Name (as Actualfirstname Lastname)

          I mean, if it’s good enough for the Internet Movie Database, it’s good enough for this. ;-)

    2. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      I’d feel free to use your English-language nickname as the name you use on your resume – I go by a nickname of my middle name, and I don’t use my technical first name on my resume at all. It’s totally professional to use a nickname and your surname, and it’s very typical to see an anglicized first name and a non-english surname here.

      Friends of ours are permanent residents and they don’t include it on their resumes. They’re 100% legal to work in the US, and if questions come up, you can answer it then.

      1. Turtle*

        My nickname is actually not an English language nickname, it’s the original nickname that I’ve always gone by but it’s very easy to pronounce for just about anyone. It’s just a short (and affectionate sounding) version of my name, think of Sasha for Alexander in Russian.

        Thank you for your advice!

    3. Lily Rowan*

      I don’t think it could hurt to put some explicit indication that you are authorized for US employment, since as you say most of your background is outside of the US.

      1. Turtle*

        Thank you! Do you think it’s better to say US permanent resident (the official status) or green card holder (more colloquial way to refer to it but what most people are familiar with)?

        2. Atlantic Toast Conference*

          I think probably either is fine, but I would also consider adding a parenthetical like “authorized to work in the US for any employer” or “don’t require visa sponsorship”– it’s not always obvious to people what rights the various categories of non-citizen residents have.

          1. Turtle*

            Hm, I thought that it’s well known that a green card is almost the same as citizenship?

            I’m a bit nervous about saying I’m authorized to work for any employer because certain jobs require US citizenship (the FBA for example). Not that I’m interested in such jobs but they do exist.

            2. Atlantic Toast Conference*

              I’m sure there’s better phrasing (maybe even just “authorized to work in the US”?), and it’s entirely possible I’m wrong re: common perceptions of green cards. But I suspect that most Americans are not as cognizant of the ins and outs of residency status/visas/etc. as you are, having been through the process yourself — ie, I bet most people understand that someone with a green card is allowed to be in the country, but wouldn’t be able to say with 100% certainty whether they could stay permanently, work, etc.

            3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

              I have a somewhat analogous position in that I’m a naturalised citizen in the UK but all my education and most of my work experience is in the US. I usually note that I’m a British citizen on my CV. Before I became a citizen I explicitly stated that I was a permanent resident and that I didn’t need any kind of sponsorship or visas in order to work, because many people are very confused about immigration matters.

              If you aren’t applying for a job for which citizenship is required then I wouldn’t worry too much about the statement that you are able to work for pretty much anyone. Maybe rephrase it to say you don’t need special permission to work?

  109. Shelly*

    I just submitted my resume and cover letter (thanks AAM for all the writing help!) for another position at my company that I would love, and I think my experience matches the description. I’m really hoping that I at least get an interview and I think I would love the position. On the other hand, I just have this feeling of dread and disloyalty if/when I have to tell my current supervisor and director.

  110. aerocat*

    Could use some advice for me and a friend. She’s applying for finance-related jobs in the for-profit world and was having a really hard time getting hired for anything at all. I volunteered to read her resume and cover letter and both were…not great. They were painful to read, in fact, and I was shocked that she’d been sending these in. She’s a warm and friendly person would be a devoted employee, etc etc, but writing clearly is not her strength. I see why she was getting no interviews for months and months because most of her resume and cover letters were sometimes incomprehensible and full of grammatical errors.

    I edited one cover letter and resume and made suggestions in general (including to read AAM, but she never reads the comments and this will be buried pretty deep…) and she got that job! But they let her go after a few months due to “budget cuts” and now she’s back on the market. So 1) any advice for how I remain supportive even though she keeps sending me resumes and cover letters to review with the same problems? And 2) is there anything else I can recommend? I think some of this stems from her just not having great written language skills (we all have different strengths!) and I am not equipped to fix that, but are there any resources that are?

    Also, should I encourage her not to apply for jobs that list “excellent oral and written communication skills” in their requirements? Are there jobs that don’t require that?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      I can’t help with #2, but you might consider doing two things related to #1. You mentioned that she keeps sending you resumes and cover letters with the same problems. Do you think it would be helpful to create a list of the most frequent mistakes she’s making (both spelling and grammar errors)? I’m thinking of a piece of paper with two columns, one headed with something like “What I’m seeing” and the other “What it should look like.” All of her common spelling errors could be grouped together in alphabetical order. The grammar errors could perhaps also be grouped together in some way. The purpose of doing this would be to create a sort-of checklist for her to go through to correct her most common errors, since she doesn’t seem to be doing that before she sends you her work for review. The idea here being that you want to create a tool she can use herself, rather than relying on you to continue reviewing for her.

      Regarding the oral and written communications skills, well, maybe her oral skills really are terrific, even if her written comms aren’t so hot. So finding a way to help her highlight her oral skills accomplishments on her resume might be one way to go here, and coaching her on how to appropriately characterize her weak writing skills while in interviews might be another.

      You sound like a great friend. Let us know how things go for her. I hope she finds employment soon.

  111. Bee*

    How does one go about finding a career counselor?

    I was recently promoted into an entry level management position. I’m not that thrilled about it. I feel like I get nothing done because I’m bouncing between a half-dozen different things instead of focusing on one thing for a longer period of time. Plus, I didn’t get a degree in a STEM field to do staff and client management. Project management is a great résumé booster and all, but so far I feel like it is not something I want to do full-time for the long term.

    There’s another STEM sub-field that I’m interested in but in which I have no formal training. From what I can tell, the local university doesn’t offer any classes about it. Another department in my company does somewhat-related work, and when I asked them about it they said that you can’t go to school to learn about these sub-fields, they’re things you learn on the job.

    I’m feeling completely lost about my next steps. I wouldn’t mind going back to school for a bit to get some background in this new field, if any classes exist. But if not, I’d like to find a company that is willing to hire someone without explicitly-related experience in this area. But it’s a pretty niche field, so it’s not something that companies publicize much.

    I’m thinking that a career counselor can help me figure out what to do next, whether school or applying for jobs. But I have no experience in finding career counselors, either! How do you find one, other than googling? Do they specialize in different fields (e.g., business, STEM)? Are they expensive? I think I should do something soon, because if “go take some classes” is the thing to do then I have a few months to enrol before the spring term starts.

    1. Kj*

      Psychology Today has a directory of counselors. You can narrow it to look for career counselors. For the most part, they don’t specialize. Expect to pay 85-120/session.

  112. KatieKate*

    Has anyone not gotten a post-graduate degree? I’m five years into the workforce with just my BA and it hasn’t seemed to hinder me so far. I’m working towards FI/RE, so unless I can get an employer pay for it I can’t imagine putting the money in but I’m in the nonprofit world so that’s highly unlikely. Am I going to hit an advancement wall eventually? Or is that far enough in the future that it (hopefully) won’t matter to me?

    1. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

      I never earned a higher degree than my B.S., but instead pursued professional credentials. Some of my peers have Bachelor’s degrees and PMP certifications. In my experience, continued training in a subject area (in my case, CAP-OM early in my career as well as non-profit association management to earn my CAE and project management training with possibility of pursuing PMP) has been more important than academic degrees.

    2. The Lady Amalthea*

      I hate to say this, but I think it really depends on what you want and the choices you make. I’m also in the non-profit field, and entered my specific field when I was 24 with a BA in History. That was young enough to have not had experience in the field and the job was as an EA, so no policy experience was necessary. I progressed to a policy job, but then had a baby and ended up as a SAHM for five years, plus moved to an area where jobs in my field were hard to come by. I made the decision to get a Masters (MPH) because I knew I’d need something to augment my experience and the time I took off. I’ve been with my current organization for 3.5+years and wouldn’t have my position without that Masters.

      On the other hand, in that first job I became close with another woman my age in an equally low level position. She later left to take a low paying job on Capitol Hill, where she was a junior Senate staffer for several years until she got a job as basically the second in command for another non-profit. I doubt she’ll ever need to get a Masters degree because her experience makes up for the lack of letters behind her name. Unless the jobs specifically require a post-graduate degree, and even sometimes when they prefer a post-grad degree, in my experience employers are much more impressed by the scope of experience.

    3. Kj*

      This is dependent on your field. I have an MA because it is the minimum requirement to do what I do. In fact, I have to remind myself of that when I interact with those outside my profession, as many people get impressed I have an MA and I don’t consider it impressive. I don’t see the point of further education unless it is normal for people in your field to need it. Look at the LinkedIn accounts of people high up in your field- do they all have post grad degrees? If they do, you might need to get one to advance. If they don’t, you are likely fine.

    5. Youth*

      I didn’t go to grad school, and I’ve had my BA for about as long as you. I’d only get one if I wanted to move into a job role that required it or if I had a sudden windfall of time and money and wanted to study something impractical but interesting.

      It doesn’t seem to be hindering me professionally. I’m out-earning a friend who has her master’s, and up until a few weeks ago, I was also out-earning my sister who has her master’s.

  113. anonforthis*

    Hi folks,

    Does anyone have any ideas for dealing with someone who constantly claims not to understand or be “unclear” on projects, etc.?

    I have a colleague who fortunately I don’t have to work with that often, but we have two large yearly projects where we sort of overlap. I’ve noticed that she has a habit of constantly claiming to be ‘unclear’ or ‘not to understand’ things like deadlines, directives, etc., even when things have been clearly and explicitly laid out and no one else is having issues understanding what they’re supposed to be doing.

    She’s above me, but in a different department so I don’t report to her.

    1. TheRedCoat*

      My manager has put out things like ‘Please respond to this email with ‘I understand” for the big things like this. Maybe a “Since things have been misinterpreted in the past, please respond to this project email with any questions, or if you don’t have any questions ‘I understand.'”?

    2. zora*

      the only thing I’ve seen work is having more frequent live check-ins (in person or on the phone) with the person well ahead of deadlines, so that there are more opportunities to fix the misunderstandings while there is still time.

      So, very frequent status checks where you sit down, ask to see what she has so far, talk through deadlines for what she is going to do next and by when. And then if that fails to fix the problem, and there are still issues at the last minute that affect the final project, I would start looping in your boss on exactly what the problems are and how it is affecting the final result.

      At that point, it might be above your pay grade to fix.

  114. JD*

    I’m looking into switching into an adjacent field. There are only a few people in the country that work in this field and I’ve sent a few of them emails asking if I could ask them a few questions about how they do. So far, I haven’t had many responses. The email I’m sending is something like this:

    —
    Hi [name],

    I recently attended a presentation at [place] about working in [new type of work]. Since then I have been doing more reading through [industry group] about transitioning into this line of work. I found your website and saw that you were experienced in this line of work. If you don’t mind, may I ask you a few questions about what your work entails?
    —

    Just wondering if there’s anything I could add or phrase differently? I don’t know if there’s something obvious about my email that I might be missing that might help get more people to reply?

    1. Bex*

      I would switch up the order a little bit, keep it shorter, and start with a little flattery and the ask. Something like:

      “Hi Name,

      I’m interested in transitioning into New field, and I would love to talk to someone with your deep experience in whatever it is. Do you have 15 minutes to chat in the next few weeks? My background is in whatever, and I’m hoping that these skills would transfer to New field.”

      I think the bigger problem is the lack of a connection or warm introduction. Have you looked them all up on LinkedIn to see if you have any connections in common? Or, any chance one of them is an alumni from your college, high school, etc?

      1. JD*

        It’s difficult – there’s only a handful of people who do this and most are located far away from me. I’ve checked for connections, but there really aren’t any. I like the wording of your email and I’ll give that a try. Thanks.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      It’s too much of a cold opening. I would urge you to work your connections and get an actual introduction. Also, (and I say this as a lawyer who specializes in a very hot niche field), the fact that you attended a presentation and have done some research is . . . not impressive — also, the fact that the only connection is that you had found my website. I’m sorry to be a bit harsh here, but I think you need to rethink this entirely. Figure out the six degrees of separation and work the connections. Better yet, go to a CLE on the topic and introduce yourself to the speakers afterwards.

      1. JD*

        It sucks, but the reality is that I have absolutely no connection to most people who work in the field. (Believe me, I’ve tried to find one!). There’s about 50 people who do this in my country and most are far enough away that there’s no chance of there being a connection. I’m working out attending a few more seminars. But, again, with me being so far away from everyone else….it’s a challenge to balance the costs and getting time off from my job. Thanks for the thoughts though!

        1. A Queen Victorious*

          It’s less about already having that personal connection than about making it. Dig around, find out about these people, go poke around their twitter or facebook if they’ve got ’em. Find something awesome they did.

          Then, instead of “Hi, here’s how I need something from you,”

          Try “Hi, you did this really cool thing! I think it’s super cool, here’s why!” (Personal connections are great if you can find something, but professional works too. Tell them what you love about that blog post/article/paper/project/event they did).

          Then give them a really clear call to action. “I’m hoping to move into the field, would you be willing to take a call and chat/meet me for coffee/(etc.).” And have a good list of questions you want to ask; don’t make them feel like you’re wasting time.

          …info brought to you by someone who used to cold-email book reviewers a lot.

          1. A Queen Victorious*

            Just clarifying that I mean mentioning *specifics*, rather than “I saw your website.” Avoid being general or vague.

  115. Moonlight Doughnut*

    I have a second round interview coming up that I am really excited about. It’s going to be early in the week, but later that same week I’m scheduled for major surgery, and will be out of commission for 1-2 weeks afterward. Should I bring this up at the interview? I don’t want them thinking I’m ignoring their communications if I can’t answer phone or email for a few days. I also don’t want them to not move me to a potential third round of interviews because I won’t be physically able to come in for an interview and could delay the hiring process. Any thoughts or advice welcome. They do seem like very reasonable people, but I want to make the best impression possible.

    Also, if informing them proactively is the best method, is there a good way to phase it so its clear that this surgery is a) medically necessary and b) not something that’s going to be an ongoing health problem that could compromise my attendance or ability to perform the job?

    1. Persimmons*

      Just say you have a commitment coming up that will have you out of contact from X to Y dates. They don’t need details.

  116. Theresa*

    So I have a work place question that is kind of different. So my husband and work at a restaurant. I work in the office doing the bookkeeping and HR stuff and my husband works as a Host. The other day our neighbor came in for lunch. The Floor Manager said something to her idk what when she realized our neighbor knew my husband. Actually I think the Floor Manager just threw her hands up in frustration. Well the neighbor honestly I think took that out of proportion…to mean that the Floor Manager doesn’t like my husband. Well the neighbor then went and visited with my MIL and told her what happened (they are friends) and now my MIL thinks the Floor manager doesn’t like my husband and he’s going to be out of a job.

    One of the servers says I should tell the General Manager (my boss) about this incident b/c this floor manager is mean to everyone blah blah blah. I told my husband if he is concerned it’s his issue and he should tell her. Well the server is annoyed at me for not telling the GM about this. But imo it’s not my place to say anything it’s my husbands issue.

    My husband doesn’t seem to care or think it’s an issue. I told him if that’s the case then let it be. Honestly I’m not really sure that telling the GM is going to do anything b/c it’ll be my husband against the Floor manager and the Floor Manager will probably just make something up saying she was joking around or didn’t mean anything by it.

    What would you do?

    1. E*

      The server or your husband should be the ones mentioning the possible issue up their chain, not you. At work, the fact that you’re married to someone involved should be excluded and you’d treat this as with any other coworker. Either a witness or party to the event that happened would be the ones to report it, if they feel it’s needed.

    2. Bea*

      The only thing that’s pinging to me is that you’re HR. So if it’s an issue to speak with the GM, you are the right person to escalate.

      However your husband isn’t issuing a complaint. So it’s moot. It’s no longer a thing to keep paying attention to. This will blow over quickly with the heavy drama restaurants can turn out. They’re trying to get the floor manager in trouble because they don’t like the person. That’s vindictive and should not be taken seriously. When the floor manager does it to the server who is upset, then by all means it’s something to address but again you and I know servers are easily replaced it they’re a pain to deal with.

  117. Imaginary Number*

    Should I wake up a snoring coworker?

    Some context. I work in a cubicle farm which has no windows and no way to play music. It can get VERY quiet there. So I’ll fully admit to head-bobbing late in the afternoon.

    I have one coworker, Ned, who sits on the other side of the cubicle wall from me. His cubicle is in the farthest corner of the room and doesn’t currently share with anyone so no one really has a reason to go back there other than to talk to him. Ned falls asleep just about every day. I know this because he snores and sometimes it’s the loud kind that makes you want to go over and check that he’s not dying. I’m definitely not the only person who’s noticed.

    I don’t care about him sleeping on the job. Nodding off is kind of a hazard of that room and it’s probably only for ten minutes or so. But if it were me, I would really want someone to alert me that I’m full out snoring because I would be super embarrassed if someone came by. Should I wake him up when this happens? Should I maybe quietly alert him afterward that I can hear him snoring?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I would say *something* at some point. If Ned is a friend I’d probably say something jocular so he doesn’t think I’m super pissed about it, but if Ned is a rando I’d say, “Ned, your snoring this afternoon made it difficult to hear on my conference call. In future, would you mind keeping it down over there?” Sweetly if Ned is a jerk.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Ask him if he wants you to wake him up. He may not even realize he’s actually dozing off.

    3. BRR*

      I would probably tell him after he wakes up. I personally don’t care if you sleep for ten minutes, in fact I think I would be much more productive in the afternoons if I could sleep for ten minutes, but many people would so I would let him know. If the snoring is bothering you, I would also say something.

    4. ronda*

      if you want to soften it.

      Ned, I think I have been hearing you snoring most days lately. Sometimes it is very loud. I just want you to know in case you want to do something about it. Would you like me to tell you/ call you as soon as I hear it?
      I know I sometimes almost nod off and I would like it if you prevented me from snoring at work (if you actually would).

  118. Good Ol' Anon*

    I’m having trouble with work these days. It boils down to not feeling like I’m part of my department. I’ve worked at my company for a little over 2 years. I love my immediate team, but we are all scattered across the country and I’m the only one actually in the corporate office. The rest of my officemates in the department will only speak to me if they need something. I know a few other people in the office in that “hi we’re getting coffee at the same time” way, but my office doesn’t lend itself to eating in the break room at all to make new friends outside my department; we all eat at our desks.

    I enjoy my job. I enjoy my immediate team. I just feel like the outcast. I’m not sure if that’s a problem to be fixed or just something to suck up. In old jobs, it wasn’t this way. I still talk to some of my old coworkers. Any thoughts?

    1. Chaordic One*

      I can understand why you feel this way and I really don’t know what to do about it. It’s a bit disappointing that the people in your office are more friendly. If you wanted to spend a bit more time hanging out in the break room, I’m sure that would be O.K.

      I hope you’re able to check in with the other people in your team. When I was in a similar position, my supervisor made a point of checking in on the people working remotely with phone calls and skype and an awful lot of their conversations was not work related, because my supervisor was smart enough to know that many of them had a tendency to feel isolated.

  119. What do?*

    Ok here’s a not so hypothetical situation…. You’re 26, you’re still early-ish in your career, your partner moved to a cute little college town a few states away to start a PhD, and you’re ready to try something new and end the long distance. Jobs in your field are slim in their city so you look further out and would commute. You’re offered a job that sounds interesting, pays WAY more than you make now, a 45 min commute from the cute college town, but is in the middle of nowhere and requires 30-40% travel. You are also offered a job closer to cute college town, is not in the middle of nowhere, more interesting to you, but it pays way less than you currently make. If it wasn’t for the pay, you’d be on it in a heart beat. What would you do?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Make a budget out for both roles that takes into account living expenses in the new town. I think seeing exactly how the differences in income will impact you will be really helpful in making an informed decision.

    2. Job choices*

      Who pays for the “required travel” Of the more interesting job? Depending on the answer, the “extra $” may not be worth the wear and tear on your car.

      Is there room for negotiation for the more interesting job?

      1. What do?*

        Company pays! I currently do about as much travel for my job, and they reimburse us mileage per the federal rate. I forgot to ask if it’s possible to get a rental car or something.

        From what I’m feeling out, it feels like the salary is set in stone. I can definitely try although I’m anticipating worst case scenario that they won’t budge.

    4. Zillah*

      I think this is heavily dependent on where your individual tolerances and preferences are.

      For example, I come from a big city; for me, less than half an hour is a dream commute, and an hour is what I consider standard (on public transportation – car is often a different story and is also more expensive). Not everyone feels that way, though – for many people, that kind of commute is awful.

      Where is your frame of reference for commutes? What’s the longest commute you’ve ever had, and how did you get there? Do you usually like to step out for lunch or a walk during the workday, or bring your own? How much have you traveled in the past, and what is generally your reaction to it? If you’re choosing to move to end the distance with your partner, how will you feel about possibly spending almost half your time traveling? What kind of benefits do they both have?

      There aren’t wrong answers to any of those questions, really – they’re just things to take in mind.

    5. JessicaTate*

      I will add to the other wise advice, 30-40% of your time traveling is a lot (as I’m sure you realize). I’d factor that in because it can be really wearing. Some people thrive on it, but being gone from home that much (1.5 weeks a month) is a commitment. If you’re tired of the long distance relationship already, you might want to think about the fact that you’d kind of be long distance again for 30-40% of your life.

      If it were me, I’d probably take the lower pay job (if I could slim our budget to make it work financially) because a long commute drains me and that much travel is more than I’m comfortable with. And then keep my eye out for something better-paying for the future.

    7. Kat in VA*

      I’m in DC, so a 45 minute commute sounds like a DREAM. (Not to play Oppression Olympics with you, I promise – days I am stuck in traffic for upwards of 90 minutes each day.)

      In Idaho, the husband had a 50 minute commute but long stretches where he wouldn’t even see another car. Now he has a 45 minute commute in bumper-to-bumper traffic and it’s far more draining for him. Same time in car, but the aggravation factors are different (such as being rear-ended twice in nine months).

      It sounds like you’re accustomed to the travel?

      1. Kat in VA*

        That first parentheses statement should have *some days I am stuck in traffic for upwards of 90 minutes each way.

        It’s almost 2:30PM and my coffee still hasn’t kicked in yet, is my only defense.

  120. Waiting for the Sun*

    Questions about Indeed job postings:

    What does “sponsored” ad mean? Is the employer paying extra for a more prominent display?

    If an employer has two identical ads running – same position, location, etc. – does that mean they have two openings? Probably not, because they could just hire two applicants from one ad.

    2. Miss M*

      Yes, I think the sponsored posts are paid to be boosted by the company. I’m not sure about the two postings being two positions. If it is, I guess it wouldn’t matter which you applied to because they’re the same position.

      On a related job board note, I can’t stand zip recruiter. I heard so many ads for it and tried it for job searching and I found it to be the WORST. And one of their podcast ads rubbed me the wrong way. “Find an employee that’s loyal and won’t lie on their application because we know all of them are little liars” was the tone of the ad and agh.

  121. WellRed*

    I’m a business reporter and still record most interviews, which I then need to transcribe. Which can be tedious and definitely takes up time I don’t have. Does anyone have any technology or tips they use for similar work?

    1. Macedon*

      There are some paid-for transcription services, but genuinely not worth the $$ and can only be used under limited circumstances when your convo wasn’t off the record. Best bet is to couple transcripts with shorthand, in my experience — at least jot down the time in your recording when you start discussing X, Y and Z, for easier future reference.

      Or, hate to say it, ask an intern.

    2. Close Bracket*

      Evernote has a transcription function. I read into Evernote on my phone and then edit the transcription on my PC.

      There is also transcription software and pedals that allow you to pause, rewind, etc, quickly from audio files. It’s the stuff that professional transcribers use.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I was an insurance transcriptionist before I went back to work full time, and those pedals can be had for around $30. There’s usually free software to be had with them as well.

  122. !!!*

    I work as an admin at a university. Everyone in my role was salaried until recently, when we were made hourly and required to clock in and out at specific times. This is the worst and everyone hates it. Since I’m not longer afforded flexibility with my time, I’m a lot more particular about performing tasks outside my working hours. I think this is very reasonable: if you need my help at 7:30 in the morning and I cannot clock in early to assist you or clock out early to take flex time, that must meant that I’m helping you as a personal favor. Personal favors are mine to grant or decline as I deem fit.

    I have two faculty members in my department who cannot wrap their heads around this. My commute time is unpredictable, so I frequently arrive as much as thirty minutes early to work to make sure I don’t arrive late. I have stopped spending those twenty minutes reading and drinking coffee at my desk, because they will not leave me alone. I have moved to our courtyard, and they bugged me there. This morning I decided to return some personal calls while sitting my parked car and go to my office just in time to clock in. One faculty member knocked on my car window WHILE I WAS ON THE PHONE to ask me to do something for him! I said I’d be happy to help once I’m inside the building and clocked in. Then, when I came upstairs, the second was waiting outside my office door. “I’ve been waiting ten minutes,” he said rather sourly. “We’re on time clocks now,” I said sweetly, “and my shift doesn’t start til 8.” Cue huffing about “going above and beyond” and “being responsive and professional” and so forth.

    The bizarre thing is, these early morning pleas for help were much, much less frequent last semester before the time clock.

    The time clock system is state wide, so I can’t change that, but I’m hoping someone has advice about how to enforce my boundaries without resorting to shouting.

    1. LCL*

      You’re doing just fine. Keep doing what you’re doing. Before you are tempted to give in, read the heartbreaking letter from the woman in academia on last Friday’s open thread who is expected to work 60 hours a week and doesn’t feel she can push back because the work won’t get done.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Ugh, they Don’t Get It. They’re salaried and they don’t understand what it means to be on the clock. Specifically, I’d guess they don’t want to understand. 1) make sure your boss has your back, and 2) I’d go somewhere else entirely, to be out of their sight. My condolences.

    3. Murphy*

      Yeah, going above and beyond does not involve working for free. Can you talk to your department head about it?

      I would say, “Sorry, I’m not allowed to start working until 8am. My hands are tied!”

      1. E*

        I’d add in, “You’ll need to speak with my boss, because only he/she can approve overtime. You don’t want us to be breaking the law now.”

    5. Temperance*

      Was an announcement made to the faculty that this change had occurred? I might mention this to your supervisor or HR or whoever announced the change that the faculty needs to be made aware.

      Legally speaking, you can’t work for free or as a personal favor to anyone. You need to be paid for all of the work that you do.

    6. Anna Held*

      If you’re hourly, then it’s illegal to work outside your normal hours. Sweetly explain that they’re opening the university to serious legal problems. And if they don’t stop it, elevate this — because they are opening the university to serious legal problems.

      1. BRR*

        Yup, this is my suggestion as well. “It is illegal for me to do work outside of my normal working hours.”

    7. Anono-me*

      I would change how you answer these two people to say “I’m NOT ALLOWED to start work until 8:00”. If you would like overtime, you could add “Unless you can get overtime/flextime authorized by The Powers That Be, we have to wait until 8:00.”

      If you don’t want overtime and 110% know it will never be approved or do want overtime, you could suggest to these two people that they should go to TPTB and try to get the overtime authorization powers. It gives them a new target and may get you overtime.

      I would also stop the off time personal favor work. The two others see you doing things off the clock for nice professors and don’t realize that you are doing nice things for nice people who have done nice things for you. (Also, it is against the rules and could cause other problems.)

  123. Website Manager*

    Hi all—I’m a communicator and manage a large, not-great website for a department in a major public university. One of the big issues is that my predecessor set up a lot of pages which were supposed to have regularly updated material on them. I believe they assumed that they’d be writing lots of newsy content about faculty research, etc. and then it would be simple to just tag that content to pages such as “ongoing research.” Tagging is easy. In practice though, there’s insufficient staffing to write a lot of that kind of content, and there are dozens of pages like this, most of which have content that was tagged three years ago when the site was set up, but nothing since.

    The obvious solution is to come up with static content for all those pages, but it’s a lot, and in many cases it would be a stretch to come up with a full paragraph of info, so the pages won’t look good. We’ve increased staffing a little, so it’s more in the realm of possibility that we could up our writing/tagging game. But there are so many pages that need regular, fresh content! Does anyone manage/monitor this type of situation, and do you have suggestions for tracking all those pages and when they’re updated? A spreadsheet? Is that worth it? Would love to hear from you if you’ve got a good strategy.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I set regular Outlook reminders up on which pages need to be updated and when, which is also established in an overview spreadsheet that I update for the next calendar year.

      Honestly, if it’s not something you want to do long term, can you restructure the website to combine pages somehow?

    2. KayEss*

      HNNNNNGH I’m having flashbacks, here. My sympathies.

      If you’re using a Content Management System to manage the website, it’s possible that it can churn out a regular automatic report of pages that have been modified since the last report or pages that have not been modified in some set period of time. Check with whoever supports the system/tech end for you and see if they know a way to help.

    3. Website Manager*

      Thank you both! Those were some helpful reframes.

      It is indeed a CMS, Drupal-based. I’ll probably use some combination of removing all the old content and replacing it with static content, picking some pages that we’ll more frequently update, and asking our vendor to come up with a different design for certain types of landing pages. I have been a one-person communications department for three years, recently acquired one writer as a full-time staff member. I’m trying to shoot a little higher than I have been while solo, but not so high that I’m back to where I started.

  124. Cadbury Cream Egg*

    I have been in my current department for 11 years. Started as a tech>team lead> manager and have been a manager for -lets just say- blue teapots for 8 years. I was no longer feeling challenged and was getting bored in my position and we had an open position for managing the red teapot division (requires more regulations for building and maintaining than blue teapots) that my manager had me temporarily fill until they were officially ready to open the position to interviews.
    They will be ready to open the position officially soon. I will have to interview for it even though I have been filling it for the past 6 months ( I’ve also still been the blue teapot manager while filling this roll. As far as the interview goes I’m fine with this and expected that. There are other internal candidates as well). My question is…everyone knows me already. They’ve known me for YEARS. So it’s not like they’re going to ask the typical behavioral interview questions like we normally do with external candidates. So what do you think they would ask an internal candidate that they know very well? The performance expectations are essentially the same as a blue teapot manager, there are just more regulations around and nuances for maintaining red teapots as well as slightly more high profile customers in comparison to blue teapots.

    1. Jerry Vandesic*

      If they are smart, they will ask you about where you think this role is going over the next few years. Build off of your experience during the past 6 months and show them that you are already firmly up to speed, and that you know how to move things forward.

      Even if they don’t ask you this question, you should find a way to weave it into your discussion or other q/a.

  125. DCGirl*

    I’ve been asked to give feedback for a peer in another department. It’s through an online application. I think it’s anonymous, but you know how those things go… people can often figure out who said what. The issue I have with this person is that I depend on her and her team at times for my deliverables, and this team will not work weekends. Ever. Now, I don’t like to have to work weekends when it comes up either, but we’re salaried employees and it’s part of our jobs. And she’s just plain rude. We had a huge last-minute deliverable due at noon on the day after Labor Day, which sucked. She said no one on her team was available at any time on any of the three days of the long weekend. So, I arranged for the work to be done by someone outside her team (say, if her team does teapot painting, we found a coffeepot painter who could work on Labor Day). Well, she went off because I was using him and not anyone on her team because he wouldn’t understanding the unique and demanding requirements of teapots, which are so different from coffeepots, etc.

    I’m getting reminders that I need to give feedback, so I think I have to. How would you phrase it?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Peer/team’s lack of availability on weekends occasionally makes it difficult to finish deliverables by deadline.” Saying she’s not available is less accusatory than she refuses to do it, and in fact leaves open the possibility that she’s been told not to.

      1. DCGirl*

        I like that. Thank you. And she has not been told to not work weekends. Her boss has been on a lengthy leave of absence and she’s been taking advantage of that.

        1. Auntie Social*

          Go to her bosses’ boss and explain that she’s taking advantage of Absent Boss and the department, and affecting deadlines.

  126. What’s in a name*

    We’ve talked a lot about names here, so I’ve been saving this story up to share.

    A new employee started in my department this week. She’s the only person from her ethnic group in our office. Her name’s not one I’ve heard before, but it’s structured in a way that seems pretty standard for names in her family’s language. Midway through the week, she made a joke: “everybody here says my name right, it’s so weird!”

    Her name is not very hard to pronounce. There’s one vowel that uses a less common pronunciation, but other than that you just say it the way it’s spelled. A couple of us asked if we were saying it right, because we want her to be comfortable.

    So, just a reminder that making the extra effort to say your coworkers’ names correctly can be a really great way to make them feel like part of the team!

    1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      And the fact that mispronouncing them has the opposite effect also explains why certain persons insist on mispronouncing even the most phonetic names from other ethnic groups!

    2. Someone Else*

      I had a sort of similar experience recently, but from the other side. I have a colleague whose name is not remotely hard to pronounce, and is very close to a very commonly known foreign name. A LOT of my coworkers always pronounce it more-well-known-name way, but I pronounce it way-it’s-spelled. The closest example I can come up with is if the name were spelled Katrin and I pronounced it that way, but everyone else is calling the person Katherine. I asked my colleague if I were pronouncing it right and her response was “I’m pretty sure you do!” but with the emphasis on the you making it pretty clear the other staff don’t usually, and she also sounded slightly surprised (maybe because the person who bothered to ask was the only one getting it right?)
      I was pretty glad to hear I was getting it right, but now I’m also not sure if there’s anything I can do to spread the word to the misprouncers or if it’s not my place and I should just keep doing it right and otherwise stay out of it.

  127. Zillah*

    I could use some advice.

    I work as a PT teapot designer at a company where I worked as an assistant teapot designer a few years ago. I really like my job, but it’s tied to the company’s green tea project, which will mostly finish up in January. I’d love to keep working here if I can, though, and I was planning on asking my boss toward the end of the project whether there was any other position they could potentially use me in.

    My boss just announced that another PT person is retiring in 6ish weeks. That person works on chai teacup design – so there are a lot of similarities, though I’ve never worked with chai specifically. I’m not sure whether to ask her about my potentially filling that position, and if I do ask, when/how. AFAIK, they’re happy with my work on the green tea project (they’ve said so, I just have imposter syndrome) and I get along with everyone on a personal level.

    It might well not be enough money – I’m not sure how much the other position pays, and it’s fewer hours than my current one – and I’d obviously really prefer to have a job with benefits so I can save some money, go on vacation, and afford a nicer place when my lease is up next summer. (Though even working that position during my days off for a couple months would be nice for my bank account? Idk.)

    My work history has been spotty, bc I had a health crisis and then a family member got very sick – I was focusing on her for two years, and this is my first real job since re-entering the work force. (The family member passed away right after I started working at my job, and my team has been really supportive, which has helped me get through it.) I think I’ve got a decent shot of getting a job somewhere when I’m finished up on this project, but I don’t really know – it’s a fairly competitive field in a very competitive area, though I’m told I’m good at what I do and I’m also really tech savvy.

    I don’t know. In an ideal world, a FT position at my current job would open up and I’d start in it a few weeks after the project ended. It’s pretty much just an amazing place filled with wonderful people and interesting work.

    But I don’t know how to bring any of that up. Help?

    1. Zillah*

      I’ve been thinking about this some, and I feel like I included a lot of extraneous details. To summarize the material points:

      I’m working 4 days a week on a project I’m passionate about at an institution I’ve had excellent experiences with now and in the past. I’m a high performer – I’m well ahead of schedule and taking on additional responsibilities to take the load off other team members – and I get along well with everyone on the team personally as well as professionally. The project ends in January.

      I’m interested in staying here longer if at all possible. There’s another PT position opening up here in the next month or two that’s similar to my work, though it has fewer hours/different pay (not sure how much). My boss and I don’t really have scheduled one-on-one meetings, but we chat every day and she’s super approachable. I’d like to talk to her about possible roles I might be able to fill post-project, ideally the FT one but possibly including the PT one that’s opening up as well – but I don’t know how/when to broach the subject.

      Any suggestions?

        1. Zillah*

          It’s more than three months away, and I just started working here in August – I’m nervous that bringing it up now would be jumping the gun a bit and make it seem like I’m not totally focused on this project. I also feel like there are a lot of things that could materialize between now and then that she wouldn’t necessarily know about yet – someone who’s in a FT position could decide to leave, who knows, you know?

          1. ronda*

            you can still tell her you have been enjoying working here and are thinking ahead to when this project ends, 3 months is not that far in job search terms. you understand that this might be a little early to ask, but since the other PT position is vacant, you would be interested in more hours by doing that too if possible.
            But a little longer term you would like to take a FT position if one opens up.
            and you would like any feedback on things you can do to make that more probable. (should you be learning about something in particular, etc)

            Ask her when would be a good time-frame to discuss possibilities. Then follow-up in that time-frame. If it is waiting too close to your project end date and you need to start job searching let her know what your time-frame is for that.
            It does not hurt to tell people what you are interested in doing in the future of your job, then when something comes up, they will think of asking you if you are interested.

  128. Wisteria*

    Looking for some LinkedIn/resume advice – relatively low stakes but it’s been bothering me! I’ve recently started a new job. The position is only for one year to cover maternity leave. I’m thinking I should update my LinkedIn (and then resume in a year’s time) but not sure whether to list it as “Llama Manager” or “Llama Manager (Interim)” – any thoughts? It’s a step up for me so “Llama Manager” looks good and is what I use on a day-to-day basis, but “Interim” is my official job title and explains why it’s for a relatively short time.

    2. Kat in VA*

      I had a job covering for maternity leave on contract, so it said, “Executive Assistant (Contract)”. It avoided any odd questions of why my tenure was so short (four months) and if asked, I could readily supply the “maternity leave backfill” reason.

      As fate would have it, the woman I covered for left, and they offered me the position full time, so I’ll have an odd juxtaposition of “Executive Assistant (Contract), Teapots Unlimited” and directly above it, “Executive Assistant, Teapots Unlimited” on my resume now!

      1. ronda*

        my last job turned from contractor to full time. I just list it like it is a employee position with the contractor start date. Think the resume police will come after me?

        since US does not usually have 1 year maternity leave, I am guessing you are in a different country. I am not sure on the norms for your country, but I think any of these ways sound very reasonable. Personally I think Interim sounds a little off to me, but that is because I think I usually hear it when they put someone in for day-to-day but are conducting a job search for perm employee and the interim person is often one of the candidates.

  129. And Now A Mouse*

    So another round of layoffs just hit my office. I’m safe, but…concerned. I see a lot of advice for people who have been laid off, but what about people concerned that they MAY BE laid off? Is there anything specific beyond save money like a miserly dragon and keep your resume up to date?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      YMMV, but if my office had layoffs, I wouldn’t just keep my resume up to date, I’d start sending it out looking for a new job. You don’t have to take it if you don’t get something that’s an improvement, but if it happens to you, you’ll be glad you did. Also a) I want to be getting raises, which an office in layoffs isn’t super likely to give, and b) I want to work for a flourishing successful company generally, having my name associated with places that are doing awesome – not a sad place where people are on edge.

      1. And Now A Mouse*

        I would normally very much agree! My issue here is that I’ve only been in this particular role in the company for 7 months. It’s a MUCH more translatable role than the ones I held here previously (6 years total), so I REALLY need more time/experience in it before I can shop around for similar roles in other orgs. Otherwise. it’s hard to explain what my role actually was; and even if i can get them to understand, they send me in directions/departments I don’t really what to go into.

        1. KayEss*

          It depends on how much danger you think you’re in. I was in a similar position, and I waited until they showed me the door almost exactly a year after my start date to start searching… eight months later, I’m still looking. If I could go back, I might not have started shopping around after the first layoffs, but I definitely would when the other lowly rats started fleeing the sinking ship without being replaced.

    2. De Minimis*

      Gather any documentation that you might need later…pay stubs, info about health insurance, etc.
      Get any contact information that might be hard to obtain once you’ve left the organization.

      If you have a lot of personal stuff in the office, maybe start taking it home now so you don’t have a lot to take home if it does happen. This advice depends on how things were handled for other staff who were laid off.

  130. Alldogsarepuppies*

    Say you are friends with your boss on facebook with the appropriate “you see my pet photos but not my political rant” filters, and after they comment on something your mom sends a friend request and your boss accepts. Knowing you mom only posts typical mom memes and doesn’t comment on things, and it would be A BIG DEAL if you told her to delete the boss – how bad is it. Does it change things if you are facebook friends with your mom’s colleagues (who have known you since you were “this tall” and added you so they can see “all the great things I know you’ll do”).

    Like I agree its not great. but is it worth massive drama and tears.

      1. Alldogsarepuppies*

        well for full context, the boss was commenting on a post announcing my brothers funeral (that I had to make viewable to public for practical reasons) expressing her support for my whole family and that she is here for all of us. She feels comforted being surrounded by people that are caring and supporting the one child she has left (which is why it would be big drama to have a talk). The boss also did many work related things to support me, so it wasn’t just a message left to the void. I didn’t even know my mom friended her until she mentioned something about a photo boss posted. (I think its equally on my mom for friending and my boss for accepting – right?)

        2. Teapot librarian*

          I’m so sorry for your loss.
          That said, just because your boss commented on a post, that does not mean your mom should have friended her!!

        3. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Is it possible your mom didn’t realize that person was your boss and just thought they were a really supportive friend?

          Yeah, I’m grasping. IDK. I like the suggestion to ask boss to unfriend mom though and it’s nice to hear that you got so much support during a difficult time.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Ugh, moms. I would a) ask her in future not to do this, because it gets weird for me (my mom literally doesn’t understand how such things work, so it wasn’t occurring to her that my boss might now see things other people have written on her wall – her racist friends and neighbors, for example) and b) tighten up her settings with your boss so they are only acquaintances on the site. Ideally – ask her if you can show her how to do this, and then have her log into your account and do it right then so you know its done. This is if you assume having her de-friend your boss in a month would result in tears.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      I mean, whose drama and tears? Because this is SUPER out of line on your mom’s part. I wouldn’t cry about it, but I would be massively annoyed and concerned. What’s your relationship with your boss like?
      Can you say –
      “I’m so sorry my mom tried to friend you on FB! She is not social media savvy and does not understand why that’s inappropriate, even after I tried to explain it to her.” (you don’t actually have to try to explain it to her.) “You can absolutely unfriend her, in fact, please do. I don’t want any weirdness in our work relationship because of it.”

      Treat it like your boss only courtesy accepted BECAUSE it was your mom, and nudge them to unfriend by making it clear that you find it inappropriate (and are assuming that they OBVIOUSLY agree that’s the case.) If Boss tries to say they don’t mind, you can just say: “That’s kind of you, but it makes me very uncomfortable. Please unfriend her.”

      2. Alldogsarepuppies*

        I actually didn’t consider asking my boss instead, even though that’s a really obvious suggestion. Thanks!

    4. Teapot librarian*

      That was totally inappropriate of your mom. And your boss, who should not have accepted!
      I think there is a real difference between friending a parent’s colleagues, who you know, and friending a child’s colleagues. All the more so friending a child’s boss.
      Do you have the type of relationship with your boss where you can go to her and say something like “I know it’s not cool to come to you with my family drama, but I cannot believe that my mother sent you a friend request. I can’t ask her to delete you, so could you delete her?”

    5. BRR*

      Just throwing out a different piece of advice. If you can ever use your mom’s fb without her knowing and if she wouldn’t notice if you did this get in their and block your boss on her account.

  131. saturninus*

    I posted several weeks ago about a new(ish) coworker who was using the office’s toaster oven to cook entire meals (ie: raw chicken with seasoning and rice, cheeseburgers, etc).

    These items take a long time to cook in the toaster oven. He leaves while they are cooking and on two occasions, the items have burnt, stinking up the entire office. On one occasion, I spoke to him about it and on another occasion, a co-worker sent out a staff email about it. I’m not sure he’s getting it.

    I truly believe this employee does not realize that ideally, he should bring in a prepared meal each day and is welcome to microwave it before eating it if necessary. The toaster oven is for toasting bread, etc.

    This affects me because my office is across from the kitchen.

    Normally, I would have a direct conversation with this person but there are a few issues.
    1. I am more senior than him in the organization.
    2. He is younger than me.
    3. He is a person of color and I am a white woman.

    I don’t want to come across as the “let me teach you” person. Should I ask his manager to talk to him? That seems over the top.

    1. k8*

      “1. I am more senior than him in the organization.
      2. He is younger than me.”

      I would think that this is are reasons why it would be *good* idea for you to talk to him?? idk i think you might be overthinking this one

    2. buttercup*

      I think you’re definitely in the right to talk to him about this. He is literally misusing a communal resource and significantly inconveniencing other people. It doesn’t matter your job title/position, or the fact that you are senior/older/whiter than him. Obviously, I recommend approaching him respectfully about it. It IS very possible that he will react poorly and interpret your comments as condescending, but that wouldn’t be your fault – he is the one being rude.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      On #3 — one result of people being afraid to have conversations like this across lines of difference like race is that it often means that person of the different race doesn’t get the opportunity to hear clear, direct feedback that would help them. (You more often see this with something like a white manager being reluctant to give clear performance feedback to a person of color because she feels uncomfortable with the racial dynamics, which then leads to the person eventually being fired when the problems don’t resolve — or having a crappier reputation than they otherwise would, or getting worse assignments, or so forth.) Do him the favor of setting him up to succeed in your office the same way you would if race weren’t a factor. (And I totally get that you’re trying to be sensitive to the racial dynamics! Just pointing out the unintended consequence here.)

    4. zora*

      I think because you are senior, it is totally your place to do it. If he was senior to you, it would be more complicated.

      And I don’t think it needs to come across as ‘teaching’ him. It is about humans sharing space and being considerate of each other.

      I would practice having a very casual “so here’s the thing” tone, so that it’s not “OMG BIG DEAL” or like you are being a parent. And then the next time he’s in the kitchen, I would be very matter-of-fact, but very specific. “It’s really not working to have you using the toaster oven for so long to cook entire meals. We all need to share the appliances. Plus, it’s a safety issue because things have started burning and it could start a fire. Please plan to bring things that only need to be heated up for a few mintues in either the microwave or the toaster oven from now on. Thanks!”

      I understand what you are worried about, and I would over think it, too. But this is totally your place to handle. Some peopel just can’t take hints and you need to be very explicit about what you need them to do moving forward.

    5. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      “I don’t want to come across as the “let me teach you” person. ”

      You’re way overthinking the racial dynamics thing. I mean, I get not wanting to be condescending or overly prescriptive about it, but you’re senior to someone who is doing something that’s not ill-intentioned but is a little thoughtless in a shared office kitchen. This is completely in your wheelhouse.

      “Hey Fergus, cooking raw food in the toaster oven isn’t really working for everyone else, because the toaster is occupied for a long time during lunchtime and sometimes things get burnt. Can you plan to bring in items that only need reheating?”

      Where racial dynamics come in is you failing to give him feedback on soft skills, people start to get annoyed at him, and he has no idea why. That’s the outcome to avoid. You can correct him, though.

  132. many bells down*

    So when you’re applying for a job, the time to bring up a major upcoming surgery is if you get an offer, right? Even for a part time position?

    I wouldn’t even have applied, but it’s so much the exact thing I’ve been looking for that I really couldn’t pass up applying.

    1. Zillah*

      Yeah, I’d say the offer stage (depending on the specifics, though – if it’ll keep you out for two months around when you’d probably start, I might be more up front if you get to the interview stage, because I think waiting until the offer to say “I can work for a week but then will be out for two months” after getting an offer could make you seem a little naive).

      1. many bells down*

        If they take as long to hire for this position as they did for the last thing I applied for, I might be done with the whole thing! It’s a paid position at the museum where I volunteer so I know everyone I’d be working with already.

        I know I’m having surgery this year, but we haven’t hammered out the dates yet because I have to have a preliminary procedure first. I’ll probably be out of commission for a good month around the end of the year.

  133. A Queen Victorious*

    I just have to share!

    Last week I got an email from a job I applied for *last year* inviting me to do some practice tasks and an interview. I used all the knowledge gleaned from Alison’s wonderful posts and… I think the interview went AMAZING. Don’t know if I got the job yet (I’m bouncing between “OMG I hope I have it it sounds amazing!” and “Assume you don’t have it, move on.”) but–!! The simple success of having done well is an amazing thing for me.

    Thank you, Alison, for all that you do!

  134. Teapot librarian*

    HUGE end of fiscal year deadlines looming, and I’ve just realized that I overlooked an error that appears in about 75% of the documents that need to be finalized by next Friday. I’ve been overlooking this error for MONTHS. Deep breaths, TL, it is not the end of the world. You can fix it later.

    1. zora*

      I HATE that!!! Finding an error I clearly missed many times. So, I totally sympathize.

      But you’re right, it will get fixed when you can, it’s not a huge deal. Errors happen.

      Sorry!!!

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I try to tell myself if I missed it that many times, it’s likely something that the readers will also skim right over (may be true or not, but makes me feel better).

        1. Teapot librarian*

          Unfortunately this doesn’t work in this precise situation, but if it did, I would be with you 100%! (This is legally binding instructions–it needs to get fixed. But no one is going to be trying to follow these instructions in the next six months or so, so I have time.)

  135. Reluctant Recruiter*

    I work for a construction company where after the recruiter left the position was never filled, so in addition to my regular work I post ads and screen resumes. I have no previous recruting experience but we don’t have to actively look for people too often, most of our hiring is word of mouth since it’s a small industry. We now need to fill a senior level position and we’re not getting a large response to the ads. Other than the standard ziprecruiter, indeed, monster type websites where else do people look for jobs? Looking for a senior level estimator type person.

    1. ZuZu*

      If it’s a more senior position, I’d use LinkedIn to try and find passive candidates. Even without the recruiter LinkedIn function, you can find people who have job titles and experience you’re looking for. Request to connect with them, and include a note that you’re recruiting for the position so they know why you want to connect. You can also try agencies if you’re willing to spend the money, or any industry specific websites that have job postings.

    3. BRR*

      If you don’t mind doing this work and depending how senior this position is, maybe ask about hiring an external recruiter?

  136. Beth Jacobs*

    I started a new job this Monday and it’s great. I used to work in BigLaw and now I’m in government, so it’s a bit of a change but the work is far more interesting and I really like it so far.

    The only thing I’m worried about though is headphone use. I used to work in openspace at my old job, so I wore headphones and it was completely normal – lots of my coworkers did too. Now I have an office shared amongst three people. It’s pretty quiet, but my coworkers still do have to make phone calls and I’ve just gotten so used to working with classical music that I can’t concentrate that great without it. So I started using headphones at my new job too, and nobody’s commented on it, but I wonder whether it’s coming across as weird in a 3 person office? And I’ve been to other offices in the building and none of my other colleagues seem to be using headphones.

    1. Zillah*

      I’d ask your supervisor to make sure it’s okay, but as long as they say it’s fine, I’d go ahead with the headphones.

      Being in a 3 person office doesn’t make it weird at all, though, IMO. People don’t just wear headphones to cancel out noise – sometimes they concentrate better with music or like to listen to podcasts, and headphones are a good way to not impose that on the other people sitting near you.

  137. VictoriaQ*

    Is there anybody here who wears hair ties on their wrist at work? I’ve been wearing hair ties on my wrist for probably ten or so years (through school), because I really like being able to tie my hair up. But if you’re in a more formal environment (business casual and above?) are hair ties weird? I’ve only graduated this June and haven’t gotten a professional job yet, so I was wondering if this was one of those little things that didn’t matter, or if it was one of those little things I was better off not doing.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I don’t think it’d matter too much, if the ties aren’t cutting off circulation (leaving those angry red marks) and if they’re a plain color. I often had hair ties on my wrist when my hair was much longer, and that office was pretty business-y in tone and dress. I did see other women with longer hair also keeping hair ties on their wrists.

    2. Temperance*

      I still do, but if you feel weird about it, they make these nice looking bracelets that you can put a hair tie on. They have them on Amazon for like $10.

    3. buttercup*

      I always wear hair ties on my wrist at work (I work in a business casual office environment.) I doubt anyone notices it’s there. I can’t remember the last time I never had a hair tie on my wrist!

    4. Graciosa*

      Entry level positions, I wouldn’t worry about it. This is pretty trivial.

      When you start moving up in the organization (or wanting to) it will be weird.

      You’re supposed to attend to grooming matters discreetly, which means you would keep your hair ties somewhere other than your wrist and retrieve them as needed. You would either go to the bathroom to put your hair up or close your office door to do it, depending on your rank – but executives don’t have an urgent need to restyle their hair that can’t wait for privacy.

    5. Rosemary7391*

      Could you keep them in your bag or desk instead?

      I’ve also taken to hairsticks for putting my hair up, and a pen or pencil makes a functional substitute if its just to accommodate a short task.

    6. Teapot librarian*

      I keep a hair tie on my wrist. But Temperance is right about there being bracelets that you can put the hair tie on so it looks like a design feature.

    7. Dankar*

      I keep mine on my wrist, and I interact with a lot of students and higher-level admins every day. I just make sure that I’m not letting a lot of stray hairs get twisted onto the band. I second the pretty bracelet/holder that Temperance suggested if you’re worried, though.

    8. Lucky*

      I doubt anyone would even notice if you’re wearing a hair tie. But if you’re not comfortable with it, you might look for a hair tie cuff bracelet – basically, a silver or gold cuff with a channel to hold your hair tie on your wrist and avoid cutting off the circulation. Check Etsy.

    9. wingmaster*

      I’m in corporate but dress code is casual. I still wear mine around my wrist.

      I tend to lose my ties, so I just bought a few yards of nice, lacey elastic and keep it at my desk. Just cut a little piece and tie it into a hair tie!

    10. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

      Are you crafty at all? You could get some nice buttons and sew them onto hairties. It will look more like a bracelet and look nice on your hair.

    11. Nacho*

      I’d consider that low-quirk level behavior. Like I would be weirded out if my company’s CEO did it, but if my manager, his manager, or even his manager’s manager did it, I wouldn’t bat an eye. Don’t wear them to an interview though, because those are for showing your most professional side.

    12. Tabby Baltimore*

      Thin hairbands, yes. (Thin enough to get stuck under my watchband, sometimes.) Decorative fabric scrunchies, no.

    13. VictoriaQ*

      Thank you guys for all your replies! Unfortunately my hair is quite short (just long enough to pull back) so some of these ideas won’t work, but I’ll definitely try keeping a stash in a desk or purse.

  138. k8*

    I started a new programming job early august, and we’re coming up on the end of my first project (it’s set to launch October 2nd). The level of misunderstanding/miscommunication/disfunction between design, management, frontend engineering, and backend engineering on this project has been really concerning for me– even today, a few weeks away from launch when most elements are in QA, we’re still discovering discrepancies in expectations on how various parts of the whole thing will interact/be used. Frankly, given the number of fires that have popped up in the last week alone, I’m concerned about how successful the launch will be. I want to voice my concerns with my manager and maybe get an understanding on how common this kind of misalignment of expectations is in their projects, but I’m worried about coming off as negative or not a team player. I didn’t have any input in the planning stages of this project (happened before I started) so in future projects I may be able to help identify and resolve misunderstandings earlier on, but I’m pretty junior so idk how likely that is. There’s a lot I like about this job, but this constant “wait, you’re doing WHAT??” is really starting to grate on my nerves . . .

    No real advice needed, just needed to vent lol!

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I think you could absolutely ask more senior peers and your boss if this rollout has been typical! That would feel like a smart, engaged question to me, showing that you were interested in the work. The trick is not to seem complain-y and not to make it about feelings. Curious and interested is a good mode.

      1. give me something I can use*

        Maybe wait for the post-mort? Your boss or team lead should be expecting to go over things after the release, especially if you frame it as “now that I’ve gotten through my first release, I want to check in with you about my performance vs. expectations, lessons learned, etc.” (adjust level of business jargon as needed :)

    2. ronda*

      I think there is often a lot of miscommunication in software projects. but I think it is totally OK to have a talk with your manager about it and do it as soon as possible.

      ya can’t really use the “it is getting on my nerves thing”, but checking in on if there is anything you can do differently to make it work better for the things you are doing is totally a valid thing to have a talk about.

      Do recognize that with a oct 2nd go-live, it is possible he will want to defer it because you guys are too busy at the moment.

  139. Chloe P*

    Looking for advice.

    Previously I worked as a niche teapot specialist and managed a team of junior teapot technicians at Company A. I was with my Company A for five years—enjoyed the work and had some great colleagues. However, new leadership came in and it became a toxic work environment. I started job searching and was a finalist for another teapot specialist job. I reached out to my former boss, Fergus, to ask if he would serve as a reference. Fergus left Company A three years prior and he and I have a great relationship—he was a great boss that trusted me and gave me a lot of opportunity to grow.

    Fergus asked me to consider a position at his current company, Company B. It was for client management for a teapot production program—much more responsibility and could be stressful at time, but a well-respected company, great benefits, and this position would really help me grow in my career. Fergus really enjoy the work and felt I would be perfect in this role. I told him I would consider it, if I didn’t get the job I was a finalist for. Well, I didn’t get that job, so I reached out to Fergus and he helped me get my foot in the door at Company B. I interviewed, and Company B made me an offer and I accepted. I’ve been at Company B for 6 months…and it doesn’t feel like a good fit. Here’s why:

    1. No formal training. The company has built many proprietary platforms and systems but the documentation on these systems is severely lacking. The expectation is that you learn on the job and that is fine—but no one explains anything. Communication from leadership and other departments about changes/updates to systems is severely lacking yet it affects my division the most as we are client facing.
    2. My current boss, not Fergus, is nice but not very clear with expectations. She says one thing but means another, has me set up pointless meetings at times, and gives spotty instructions. I often feel lost and confused. On more than one occasion my boss has given me incorrect information to relay to the client/technicians and in turn the receiving party calls out the incorrect info. I look uninformed and stupid and my boss always comes back to me, privately, to apologize for the misinformation. I also feel others are upset that I’m wasting their time in pointless meetings when I should get instruction from my boss—but my boss has me set up those pointless meetings.
    3. Everyone seems unhappy here. No one seems to enjoy the work; it’s as if people are waiting to get out. In teapot project management I see it on both sides, complaints about internal technicians (sloppy work, lack of communication, etc.) and complaints about clients.
    4. We’ve missed almost every deadline for deliverables since I’ve started. And apparently this is the norm. My team is working with a new and special client (this contract took years to get) and I feel they are becoming frustrated with us not being able to deliver on time.
    5. I have a teammate that I feel is resentful towards me. He’s been here about 5 years and was just recently promoted to my level. I’ve been respectful to him, his experience, and his longevity with the company but he’s always surly towards me.
    6. Fergus is now on a leave of absence. He let me know he was leaving and told me he was coming back, but I’m starting to doubt if he will be back.
    7. The actual work is not that interesting to me. I miss being a teapot specialist, but I definitely do not want to go back to Company A.

    These are just a few examples of the issues but there are so much more. I don’t mind working in a fast paced or stressful environment, but I highly value clear instructions and expectations. I wanted to stick it out for a year but that is starting to feel unbearable. But I also don’t want to ruin my relationship with Fergus or just give up without giving it a fair shot. I don’t know what to do; I feel trapped.

    1. Zillah*

      I think you should start sending out applications.

      It might take awhile for something to turn up, and when it does, you can figure out how to talk to Fergus about it then. If he was a great boss and you have a good relationship, he won’t hold it against you that it hasn’t worked out – it’s entirely possible that he’d feel bad for putting you in an unpleasant situation if he knew the details of how things have been going! Regardless, though, there’s no need to jump the gun before you even get an interview/offer.

      1. Chloe P*

        Thanks for reading and replying, Zillah. That’s what I’ve been thinking but not sure how to explain the gap this will create on my resume. I definitely wouldn’t list Company B, but not sure how to explain the 6 month gap after leaving Company A.

        1. Zillah*

          Hmm. YMMV, but I might be inclined to leave the current position on your resume right now and explain in the cover letter that you’re looking for something that requires more collaboration or time management or something else to touch on one of the issues you’re having in a semi-neutral way. My anecdotal experience is that the hit for not having a job is bigger than it is for leaving a job quickly (at least if you don’t have a history of short stays, and it sounds like you don’t, since you were at Company A for five years). After your next position, you can decide whether or not to leave it on, but cross that bridge when you get to it.

  140. zora*

    you guyyssssss.. I am so whiny this week.

    We were recently acquired (again) and due to a lot of different random reasons, they are making us move in to the office of another company owned by the same owners in the same city. But as of yesterday, my boss wants us to move by End. Of. October.

    Which means my October is going to be insane, as the sole admin for our team of 10, I’m going to have to do this whole thing.

    I am also cranky because I love our office where we are now, both the location (Literally across the street from my transit stop) and the space and the perks we get.

    So, please either share stories of the office move that went smoothly and was so much better afterwards, or your office move management tips, or send some commiseration for my pouting.

    Thanks!

    1. IEanon*

      Not my story, but I know someone who can commiserate. My mother has moved from building to building 3 times in the last five years (and twice from floor to floor). This last move, they didn’t have sufficient parking for everyone who now shared the building, so a number of employees had to park in the nearby airport overflow lot and catch a shuttle to work.

      The worst part was that they moved her group away from the cafeteria, so she could no longer use it without catching the shuttle to the parking lot, driving to the building with the cafeteria and vice versa.

      1. zora*

        omg, that is insane. If our move added a whole other airport shuttle to my commute I would probably just cry. That is too much moving, I feel so bad for your mom!! Thanks for the sympathy, I’m trying to get over it.

    2. GreyNerdShark*

      Well… my employer moved over 4000 people to a new campus nearly 10 miles away. Was reported as “the largest movement of people in $CITY since WWII”

      My bit of it went perfectly well. Packed up my stuff on Friday, went to new place on Monday and there my kit was. Team was told “those are your desks” (open plan both ends) and we divvied up desks, traded the brightly coloured drawer/filing cabinets amongst ourselves (and stole from vacant desks) so everyone got a colour they could cope with, wandered about the place looking at the amenities, and generally settled in te first couple of days. Was a bit of messing about with IT but very little considering the complexity.

      They didn’t move all 4000 in one hit. I was part of the move of 400 people from an outlying building and even the main office “only” moved about 500 people at a time. Was a bit of a faff about as people realised that $COMPANY was serious about parking being limited and the local council rather quickly implemented a residents only parking scheme for the surrounding streets and metered parking for the commercial area. I was using a motorcycle in the beginning and $COMPANY had plenty of motorcycle parking (which was not the case at the old location) so I was fine.

      Moves can work… Although this was not by any means your normal small company move and took nearly a year of planning and logistics.

  141. buttercup*

    This is a purely hypothetical question for me – largely prompted by the questions earlier this week about the employee who badmouthed his boss to the LW’s boss…..but what are people’s thoughts on being honest in the exit interview? I have a manager that I think is very incompetent, as does everyone else on my team who has worked with him for most of the year now. I have written evidence where he has literally contradicted himself when giving direction (my most charitable explanations for this is genuine absentmindedness/senility, my worst explanation would be he is trying to purposefully trip me up so he can mark down my performance reviews.) For some additional context, I work more closely with the assistant manager who likes me and I know I can rely on for a good reference in the future. I definitely wouldn’t use the manager, who would definitely give me a bad reference. What would the outcome of this be? Would I just come across as a crazy, disgruntled employee?

    1. SarahKay*

      I think in this case look at it like you were explaining to a new employer-to-be why you were leaving the job – you want to give an explanation that’s basically honest, but calm and fairly drama-free. So perhaps something like “I haven’t been getting clear direction from manager on requirements, to the extent that sometimes I’ve actually been given two directly contradictory instructions. This has definitely created difficulties in my daily working life, although assistant manager has been very helpful in resolving some of those difficulties, but on the whole it’s made me decide I want to move on.”

      I definitely wouldn’t add any speculation as to why manager was like that; just stick to descriptions of what the problem behaviour was, in language that’s as calm as possible.
      It might also help to write out what you want to say, and say it to yourself (or a helpful friend) a few times, so that you’re feeling more relaxed about actually saying the words.

      As for the outcome, I guess it would depend on your company – whether they treat exit interviews as a worthless tick-box exercise, or if they do actually see them as valuable.

    2. ronda*

      i think one person’s complaint is not very much taken into account in an exit interview. It does have impact if they are hearing the same type of things from several people. But it is possible that what you say could get out and hurt your references and future interactions with people at old company. So that is why most people go with the polite lies instead of telling them it was really this person’s awfulness that got me looking for another job.

  142. Anonymosity*

    So I sent a dumbed-down resume to a local retailer for a production position (they make and sell items made of a certain material). It paid $10 an hour, which is abysmal and I can’t live on it, but whatever. I didn’t expect they would call me, but they did. Not for the production position.

    They have an unadvertised position for a kit instruction / graphic design and tech writer. This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I’m 1) good at, and 2) want to do. It would give me portfolio items. In fact, it was my ridiculous portfolio that made her call me (I wrote a procedural for making tea, LOL). I have an interview on Monday and I have all weekend to make a writing / graphic sample for them. The Orange is coming to town today and I was going to protest, but I don’t have time for his bullshit now.

    It only pays $10-11 an hour. If they offer it (and they might; since it’s unadvertised, I might be the only person they’re talking to right now), I will take it because I’m desperate, plus portfolio items, plus it would knock an admin position off my resume. Plus I think I would actually like it, so at least I won’t suffer while I’m trying to get the hell out of here.

    BUT DEAR GOD WHY ARE SALARIES SO DAMN LOW

    I think the reason no one leaves my city is because they can’t afford to. I’ve been wearing the same contacts for over a year because there is no way I can afford to order more through the internet. I desperately need to see a periodontist and can’t afford that either. :P Glassdoor says they have healthcare; I hope to heaven it’s the same health system I’m already in and not the religious one.

    This is sort of freaky, since I asked the universe (threatened it, really, haha) to get moving and it did two unrelated things almost immediately*. Isn’t that weird?! I just need it to hurry because I can’t go on like this any longer. I don’t have a lot of time to waste on crap. So crossing fingers, toes, arms, legs, eyes, and internal organs.

    *thank you make them bigger ok lol kthxbai

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Any chance they’re open to negotiation on the designer role? Because that is pretty low for that kind of work. Do some research to figure out market rate for your area. Even if you can’t haul it up to market rate, maybe you could negotiate for a bit more than that. Check out some of AAM’s posts about salary negotiation.

      1. Anonymosity*

        From Indeed.com:

        Average in Bumblefudge, MO
        $11.56 per hour
        ▼45% Below national average

        How much does a Content Writer make in Bumblefudge, MO?
        The average salary for a Content Writer is $11.56 per hour in Bumblefudge, MO, which is 45% below the national average. Salary estimates are based on 6 salaries submitted anonymously to Indeed by Content Writer employees, users, and collected from past and present job advertisements on Indeed in the past 36 months. The typical tenure for a Content Writer is less than 1 year.

        Glassdoor has it WAY higher, but that is not what I’ve seen. I’ve interviewed for two content writing jobs here and the best one was $12. I might see if I can push for that, but this is a small retailer / e-commerce business and I seriously doubt it.

        The average for tech writing/editing jobs is higher, but there are very few jobs like that even in the state, and I am not qualified for any of them, apparently (I’ve tried).

    2. Anna Held*

      This is great though! They saw your true skills even if that’s not what you’re applying for. Hopefully they can pay you at least a couple bucks an hour more, and even if not, at least it’s something. As you say, maybe it could lead to something better in the future. Congratulations!

    3. Jean (just Jean)*

      (Pause while I do several cyberspace back flips to express my vicarious happiness!)

      This is _great_ news:
      – You got an interview!
      – They redirected you from a meh position to one that fits your skills and interests!

      Think of these events as seeds that will eventually sprout, root, and bloom. Focus on the positive because it helps you cycle up.

      >BUT DEAR GOD WHY ARE SALARIES SO DAMN LOW
      You got all day? I agree completely. But sometimes societal analysis is a distraction from Pulling Ourselves Out of a Crummy Place.

      Internet hugs and/or high fives and/or good vibes in any combination that you prefer.
      Keep going. We’re cheering for you.

  143. Highlighter Queen*

    Going to my first accounting career fair held by my university in hopes of getting an internship or job. My dream is to be a CPA and this will be my next step (I have a degree in accounting). I’m only 23 but feel very behind everyone else. Please provide any advice or encouragement! I had a nightmare last night and am nervous as ever.

    1. De Minimis*

      A lot of the bigger firms usually have a lot of new associates milling around who are eager to talk to recruits, so that’s always a good way to get started. At my school also any current students who had pending offers or internships were usually there to represent their future employer, so those people are another good way to get a few practice conversations in before going to booths that may only have a couple of people.

      Ask for business cards, a lot of the newer people will be excited to have the opportunity to give them to someone.

      And everyone there wants to meet you and talk with you, so don’t be nervous!

  144. Environmental Compliance*

    I need someone to come and poke me every few minutes. It’s a slow grey day here, and I’m about ready to fall asleep. It doesn’t help that the office is freezing cold & very quiet for some reason today, and I’m cocooned under a heavy sweatshirt and blanket.

    1. Nita*

      Yeah, me too! This week has been a string of late nights, with a no-school day thrown in. So tired. I’m already trying to work out if I can hide somewhere tomorrow morning, so I can sleep past 7 AM just once.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I don’t even have the late nights excuse! I’d totally send the kiddos to Grandma’s/Friend’s/Aunt’s for a day. I don’t have kids, but SIL definitely will send her boys out for a play day just for naptime, which makes a huge amount of sense to me. At a certain age, even well behaved kids can be exhausting.

    2. wingmaster*

      I feel ya. It’s freezing cold in my office too. I usually complain about being hot or even slightly warm, but I actually had to bust out the heater to put under my desk. It also doesn’t help that the interiors of my building has a dark color palette (black, grey, white).

  145. rough day... or week...*

    I had a rough week at work and could use some support. I overestimated my ability to get a project done (I was waiting on others and didn’t have a plan if something didn’t come through) and it ended up falling on a colleague’s lap because he had more experience with it and could do it more quickly. The presentations for it also consequently didn’t go great and now I am just tired. This is a pretty new job too, about 4 months. A part of me is tempted to run away and look elsewhere, but I don’t think that will solve anything… I want to stick it out… How can I recover?

    1. Anna Held*

      1) Thank your colleague for stepping up. 2) Sit down and think about what went wrong, how you could do better next time, resources you need, etc. Come up with a plan of action for next time. 3) If it went really badly, talk to your boss with plan of action in hand. Discuss what to do for the future. Let him know you know you screwed up and you’re eager to fix it. 4) Don’t dwell, just take the lessons to heart and do better next time. It’s a new job! You’ll figure it out.

  146. Exceedingly Anon*

    I posted previously on an open thread about a new coworker who was displaying questionable behavior including being very weird about me + food.

    The update is rather mild – I’ve confirmed that his unprofessional behavior isn’t confined to me, though I have no idea if the food monitoring extends outside my cubicle. Also he’s weird about food in general – he eats constantly and of course it’s lots of crunchy things.

    I’ve heard through the grapevine that when he had overview meetings with others, they felt interrogated and at least in one case, the person on the receiving end was really bothered by it. I encouraged my grapevine source to encourage the person to talk to our supervisor – she can’t act on information she doesn’t have, after all. Other people who have been training him have relayed to our boss that yes, he does go off on tangents, and no, he never puts his phone away.

    I know he’s been spoken to specifically about the phone, and about toning it down in general. My boss and this guy are both very extroverted, but Boss knows the rest of us are decidedly not, and his chattiness effectively alienated us all from the get-go.

    At this point, we basically each say hello and that’s about it outside of work specific communication. The second round of training did go better – he only went off on a tangent once and mostly managed to shut himself down otherwise. He still does things that annoy me, but I’m aware that they annoy me more than they would coming from anyone else – forgetting his things on my desk after training, grabbing things off my desk to dispose of them for me.

    I’ve settled on this mainly being a major personality conflict – we’re very much opposites, and have nothing in common to bridge that gap (Boss and I are very different people as well, but we have some nerdy pursuits that overlap and have found a lot of common ground in that. Also she didn’t offer me candy from her mouth the day we met, so there’s that). So unfortunately, my hackles are always going to be up a bit around him, but I can and will be professional and do my job and I know I have Boss’s blessing to shut him down if he starts being weird again. Which is what matters, really, and makes all the difference for me.

    Thanks for listening, commenters. You guys continue to be the best.

  147. NewbieNoob*

    I like my new job! It’s the next step up in my career, the pay is better, and there’s more advancement opportunities. But I’ve been spoiled by a good manager and environment in my old job, I guess. The new coworkers are kind of cliquey, but not in a bad way. Just inconsiderate. Some fat shaming, a lot of throwing around words like retarded, and generally inconsiderate towards people who aren’t middle class left wing able bodied. When I brought it up to New Manager/ HR, they apologized but also kind of doubled down in the “that’s how we are here, it’s all in good fun/ no one means anything by it” way. Does anyone have any helpful suggestions on keeping it cool and not coming off as NewEmployee SJW? That’s a good way to make sure you don’t last in my work.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      “Why are you picking on fat/retarded/gay/poor/brien people when the Brewers/Yankees/Eagles/Warriors/Sportsball people of your choice are right there, convenient?”

  148. longtimelaura*

    Longbterm lurker, first time poster. Ive just started a new job (found through an agency), that is very young and doesnt have any idea about how tto get things done. They want me to introduce a lot of process when they have their next strategy meetings next year. A temp job i had before (also found through an agency) is interviewing for a permanent role. I applied to it because I wanted to work there for ages and my temping experience there was a bigger success than any of us thought it would be. And now ive been offered an interview im getting really worried: how do I navigate the awkwardness that comes if I get offered the job after i accepted another? (I applied to the temporary place years ago, and its something I’m really passionate about.)

    1. Elle*

      Just be upfront with them. “It’s been quite a while since I applied, so I wanted to give you an updated resume ahead of the interview. As you can see, I began working at X company and have been doing YZ there. I believe the experience will help me contribute to the role I’m interviewing for in [this way]. I’d love the chance to interview with you, as you’ve always been my first choice for X reason.”

  149. Pancakes*

    Looking for some advice about a kind of weird situation I’m in.

    I was hired at my company almost a year ago. I was hired to report to Erin who is the head of our department with a few other people who reported to her. Lucinda was a colleague who has a few more years at the org and was a level above me, also reporting to Erin. A few months into my time here the higher ups restructured our department and had me start semi-reporting to Lucinda. This had nothing to do with my performance, and was done to try and streamline the department and reduce Erin’s workload by giving her fewer direct reports. Erin still approved things like vacation time and scheduling and conducted my reviews. I have weekly meetings with Lucinda and we all have weekly department meetings. Lucinda has said that she wasn’t interested in management and that she considers us peers (we have the same amount of experience, I just haven’t been at this company as long). My workload is pretty split between projects that I work on with Lucinda, projects I work in with Erin, and projects we all work on.
    Upper management has now said that Lucinda will be conducting my upcoming annual review (although Erin has done my previous reviews). I’m worried about this because Lucinda doesn’t have an interest (or experience) in being a manager or providing professional growth opportunities for me. I am also planning on asking for a raise and title increase at this review (something that Erin is aware of and encourages). The title increase I’m hoping for would put me on the same level as Lucinda (although I have no problem with her continuing to check in with my everyday work or be the team lead or still being junior to her).
    I have one of my (less frequent) one on one meetings with Erin next week. Should I bring up my concerns about this review? I don’t want to seem like I’m whining or like I have a problem with Lucinda, but I do want to advocate for myself and have the productive, beneficial review.

    1. Doug Judy*

      I’d guess if Upper Management as directed Erin to conduct your reviews that she has received training on how to conduct them. Additionally she might have gotten some leadership training on career development, raise requests, etc. I would still bring it up as planned, she might also just hand the request off to Erin anyway.

    2. zora*

      I would definitely talk to Erin since you have a meeting with her anyway.

      But I wouldn’t frame it as “Concerns” since you don’t have any evidence of how Lucinda is going to handle it yet. I would say it as “So, since Lucinda is now going to handle my review, I wanted to just touch base with you about it first. I still want to as for X and Y and Z(professional growth opptys) as part of my review this year. Do you think there are any reasons those won’t be approved?” and see what she says. And then “I am thinking my review will be positive in these areas, and that I will continue to work towards ABC things in the coming year. Does that sound right to you? Do you have any suggestions for what I should say or expect from my review this year?”

      I think it’s also likely that the fact that Lucinda isn’t interested in managing means she’ll basically just rubber stamp whatever you bring to her for your review. So, I would move forward with that assumption for now. And assume that Erin is basically going over these things with Lucinda first, so that Lucinda will probably just parrot what Erin says to give herself the least amount of extra work possible.

      And then, if things DON’T go your way at your review, at that point, ask for some time on Erin’s calendar and sit down with her and ask her what she thinks happened, and if there are any opportunities to revisit. But don’t assume that will happen yet, wait until you come to that bridge before you cross it.

  150. Sharkie*

    I work at a small company and was hired in June to replace Steve who is retiring in December. Steve has a lot of duties (Teapot ordering, Teapot inventory, setting the prices for the tea shops who we supply, ect.) that our boss Tim has no idea how to do. Steve will not show me how to do those duties, instead, he just does the work and then sends me the spreadsheet with a note saying “follow the spreadsheet”.
    I have asked Steve multiple times if I can shadow him so I can take notes, or better yet do the tasks myself under his supervision. Every time I am met with pushback from Steve saying that the spreadsheets are idiot proof and I don’t need to understand the process. He also gets very hostile when I (or anyone else in the company) ask him questions.
    Yesterday Tim and I had a performance review, and he is very happy with my work and my drive. He then asked how my training with Steve is going. When I raised my concerns about how Steve isn’t really training me and how he gets very short with me when I ask questions, Tim told me that Steve likes to take shortcuts and is mentally checked out but I am doing a great job picking up the slack and I’ll learn quickly what to do once Steve leaves.
    My main worry is once Steve leaves I don’t want to rely on the spreadsheets to do 50% of my job. Heaven forbid the sheets are outdated and it causes me to make a ton of mistakes that affect the company. How can I get someone to teach me who doesn’t want to teach?

    2. A suggestion*

      Set up a meeting with Tim and Steve so that everyone is on the same page.

      Would something like “I am eager to understand teapot ordering/price setting/etc. For me as a learner, it would be more helpful to pick up these tasks if we do X, Y, and Z together step by step rather than follow a spreadsheet. When do you have time for us to do tasks X, Y, and Z?”

    3. Elle*

      I have found that sometimes people take innocent training questions as offensive questioning of their judgement. Sometimes its best to lead a clarification question with “I know you’ve probably explained this before, but I just can’t seem to get the hang of it.” or “I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but would you mind clarifying for me why you did it this way?”
      In general it can take some time for people to come around to going from total independence to being followed around and questioned all day. I was going to suggest just shadowing him but it sounds like you asked that and he didn’t allow it. Maybe you can ask your boss if he could work with Steve to arrange 1 ‘tag along’ day a week for you?
      And ultimately, its not your job to protect the company from making mistakes due to poor training. By refusing to help you with Steve, that’s a risk THEY are choosing to take on, and it’s not really your place to question that – although I’m sure it feels horrible to make mistakes that aren’t really your fault.

    4. give me something I can use*

      Performance-based assessment is a pretty good way to evaluate the effectiveness of training. It’s also facially absurd to say that you don’t need to understand the process. Unfortunately it sounds like Tim may not have the stomach to fight with Steve (who’s feeling touchy about being replaced? just doesn’t like ‘being bothered’ with the new employee? hopes to be kept on as a consultant if he hoards information?). If Steve takes shortcuts, maybe Tim doesn’t want him teaching you those ways.

      A couple of ideas:
      – Point out to Tim the possible serious/$$$ consequences of you being incompletely trained, and push for a trial run on all these tasks based on the spreadsheets/training you’ve received so far. Plan to have the results reviewed by Steve and Tim.
      – Is Tim planning to have you review processes for documentation and improvement in the new year? Could he be persuaded to move that timeline up “so you can have the benefit of Steve’s experience and insight”? Lay the flattery on thick.
      – Can you reverse engineer the spreadsheets to some extent, use them to draft a process document for each task, then send them to Steve for feedback? Some people can’t resist correcting an error, or find a blank page intimidating but happily comment/build on others’ work. You might also find that the spreadsheets are good enough to be going on with, or that you can figure out a process for some tasks that’s honestly just fine, even if it isn’t how Steve does it.

      Good luck and commiserations.

    5. Sharkie*

      Thanks for all the ideas guys. I honestly think Tim is over Steve and the retirement is a “You retire or we are forcing you out” type of situation.
      Sorry to confuse yall with the positive performance review. The performance review with Tim was based on what Tim has been training me (teapot sales, teapot quoting, supplying teapots to the National Teapot League). Because he has trained me quickly he thinks I will be able to train myself once Steve leaves and I have access to his hard drive.

      Steve is going on vacation next week (not to judge other peoples vacation time but this is the 3rd-week-long vacation he has taken since I started) so I think it will be a huge wake-up call to Tim that I need him to back me up when it comes to Steve. I’ll keep y’all updated :)

  151. LGC*

    So, does anyone else have fun with their emails?

    I do the production tracking for my office (since I’m a database nerd), and I’m planning on slipping in a reference to “September” in tonight’s report. Hopefully someone picks up on it!

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Please tell me it will be a reference to the Earth, Wind and Fire song. That would be amazing.

      1. LGC*

        What else?

        (I mean, tonight IS the 21st of September.)

        I’ve pulled off some other things like coloring everything purple when Prince passed away a couple of years back.

    2. whistle*

      Relatedly (I hope), I missed talk like a pirate day this year (Sep 19). It’s normally my favorite day at work – I use pirate lingo with all my coworkers and they normally get into it. I was super busy on Wednesday, and didn’t notice what day it was. My friend had texted me an awesome pirate message at 10 am and I didn’t see it until 6 pm. Gar, I felt like a mangy cur :(
      I am now inspired to spice up my emails, LGC!

  152. Argh!*

    One of my coworkers was hired despite lacking the basic credentials. He’s learned a lot since he started, but he’s at a disadvantage. I think he’s gotten to the point where he’s made up for what he lacks in education as much as he can, and he’s starting to be in a sour mood. At the time he was hired I was really angry, because the rest of us worked hard for our education. Then as I got to know him I really respected him for his good qualities plus the way he was making up for what he didn’t know coming into the job. I’m really bummed that he’s changed like this. He gets defensive whenever I demonstrate knowledge he doesn’t have. I don’t see him interact with others, but I have to wonder if he’s the same way with them.

    We don’t work closely together, so it’s not a huge thing, but it’s a thing. I feel badly for him.

    I’ve had friends tell me to apply for jobs that I’m not really qualified for, and I just won’t do it just because I made a choice to go into my field and study what I studied. I don’t think I’d be as happy doing something else (though a different boss would be a relief). Now that I’ve seen what happened to one person who did this, I’m even more set against it.

    Have any of you been that person who got hired despite minimum qualifications? How did it go? Or have you seen this dynamic in action? Is it just this guy or a common thing?

    1. atalanta0jess*

      I have very minimal past experience with a thing related to my job, and the vast majority of people I interact with have far more experience with it. It’s gone fine…I am good at my job regardless. I just try not to overstep, and to recognize that I have limited knowledge. I’m trying to decide whether it’s worth building that part of my experience or not. I exercise humility.

      But really, it’s fine.

    2. Temperance*

      Okay so I have a few unrelated comments. 1.) Of course I would be annoyed if someone who didn’t have the basic credentials supposedly required for your job was hired. 2.) It’s seriously his issue, not yours, about how he handles the fact that he doesn’t have the same degree you all do. 3.) You don’t need to feel bad for a guy who treats you badly because he’s insecure. 4.) You should apply for jobs if you meet 75% of the qualifications. It’s apparently a Thing that women don’t apply for jobs for which they aren’t totally qualified for, while men apply for jobs without the qualifications necessary.

    3. Seifer*

      Ha! I found out what a ‘Teapot Engineer’ is about two hours before I went to interview to become one. I had some tangentially related industry experience but not a lot of direct experience, no college degree, a couple of certifications in only tangentially related programs… I was, and kind of still am, vastly unqualified. However… I ask questions.

      I know I don’t know everything. I ask my boss all. the. questions. I ask other people if I can help them with anything and then I ask them to please give me a quick crash course in whatever it is and if something comes up that I am not sure, I ask them again. I work so closely with my boss to make sure I’m going to become an asset and not a burden because I know he took a hell of a chance on me to hire me. I just don’t let what I don’t know get to me. I try to see everything that I don’t know as a learning experience. I try to make as few mistakes as possible by running things that I’m unsure about past my boss and then we work together to get through it. And it’s been less than a year and I’m pretty much my boss’s right hand (wo)man. We’re the only two in this office that do the kind of work that we do, so I mean, I kind of have that position by default haha but I like to think that he asks me to do things because he knows I can handle it and not because he has no choice.

  153. Accounting Dept*

    Started a great new job 4 months ago. I’m in accounting but they “made space for me”. The accounting department, 2 people, each have offices. I’m sitting in the middle of customer service who take calls all day long. We even have an engineering assistant who has an office.

    Jane has a desk right by mine and she has coworkers stopping by ALL DAY. Don’t know how she gets any work done because she’s distracting with her constant visitors. She “jokes” she has untreated ADHD. We don’t have other space to move me to.

    In accounting I’m non-union. Jane is union and it’s a seriously strong union. There’s only been 2 union workers fired in 15 years. I’m more annoyed every day. How do I cope with this?

    1. Icontroltherobots*

      Could you ask to share an office with one of the accounting people or the engineering assistant? Say you need a quieter work area to focus?

      1. Accounting Dept*

        I wish. Their offices are small with filing cabinets. I’ve even moved to an empty conference room on occasion if my work didn’t need a computer. Ugh

        1. Icontroltherobots*

          Okay – that sucks

          If you have an extra $150 buy some noise cancelling headphones. If you don’t have those, I find just the ear plug kind and some white noise to be helpful. My desk is next to the breakroom and down the hall from reception. I’m also an accountant and I’ve been able to drown out the majority of the noise.

  154. OhGee*

    I’m waiting for a job offer to hopefully be extended to me, and can’t keep my mind off it. Here’s the situation so far: had a phone interview, an in person interview (which included meeting with almost 10 people and a written test), an d a second interview (met with three more people). I was told that two people, max, would be brought in for that second interview. The next day, the hiring manager asked for my references, and two of the three told me that they were contacted the next business day after that (third ref is busy enough that I don’t expect her to have given me a heads up if she was contacted). That was Monday. This is a university gig, and I *know* that it can take 3-5 business days between the hiring manger deciding they want to make an offer and getting approval to extend the offer. So there’s a good chance they want to offer me this job and aren’t clear to extend an offer yet.

    But part of me is worried that they checked references for both finalists, and went with the other person. This organization’s hiring documentation indicates that they recommend checking two candidates’ refs as a tiebreaker. If they go with the other person after checking my references, it will be the second time this year that I’ve made it this far in a hiring process and not been selected. I’m so, so ready to leave my current job and so excited about this potential role/group of people. Staying relaxed right now is really hard.

    1. Zona the Great*

      Oh isn’t this part just awful!? Ugh. No matter how many people tell me, “you can’t do anything about it now! Just wait and see!”, I would be writhing in agony. I hope you find out very soon! Good luck!

      1. OhGee*

        It’s horrible! Thank you, I’m staying hopeful, and the hiring head I met with hinted that this final step can take the most time (the rest of the process has been extremely fast for academia), but boy do I want to hear one way or another before the day ends!

  155. Notthemomma*

    GUYS!
    We’ve had two llamas on the loose making the news! That means we have a need for llama wranglers! …google ‘sioux Falls llama on the lam’ for story.

    On a Work-related note, I am 4 months into new position, loving it and just found out the only other person in my area of expertise will be retiring at year end, so I have been furiously reading through her files and picking her brain so I’m ready to stand alone when she is gone. I am so thankful she trusted me enough to tell me before it’s official so I could prepare. I need to think of a great retirement gift to thank her.

    3. Sharkie*

      I LITERALLY HAD MY BOYFRIEND JUST TEXT ME ABOUT THIS!!!!!

      I am jealous of you! I am in the exact situation but my retiree is being a jerk about teaching me and readying me.

  156. The Bank Teller Formerly Known as the Professional Sweater Folder*

    I have finally escaped retail into a 9-5 job with desks, work emails, benefits, a professional dress code, and a full hour for lunch break. It’s great, after years of scarfing my food down in half an hour, I can enjoy lunch, run errands, and just sit.

    …and sit, and sit, and sit glancing up at the clock thinking “what do you mean I have another forty minutes?”

    It’s weirdly a rough transition. What exactly do people do for a full hour? I try to run errands, read a book, do some writing, linger as much as possible over lunch, but my god, this is torture. Even right now I’ve only taken twenty minutes and I’m ready to go back out.

    Breaking up my break isn’t possible due to the kind of work. What the heck am I supposed to do for an hour?

    1. dorothy zbornak*

      Are you hourly and/or legally required to take an hour? It sounds like you are otherwise you wouldn’t have to wonder how to kill the time. When I was required to take a lunch in my previous job, I’d try to run as many errands as possible. But when going to lunch with coworkers, we definitely needed the full hour. Is there anyone you could eat with? Go out to lunch somewhere? Sometimes I’d go off the beaten path to a restaurant where I knew I wouldn’t run into anyone I knew and would just enjoy a leisurely lunch, scroll through social media, play games on my phone, etc.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      Does everyone else in the office truly take an hour? Theoretically in my office we have a lunch, but nobody really takes it – we just take 15-20 minutes to heat up food / chat and then go back to our desks to eat and work. This has been the case at most professional jobs I’ve had. I just mentally deduct that time from any slacking off I do in the day (or if I need to leave early or come late every so often I figure it all shakes out). When I was hourly I had a job with a full hour break, but people tended to spend it all together chatting in the break room. Or I’d occasionally leave the office and run errands.

      1. The Bank Teller Formerly Known as the Professional Sweater Folder*

        As my name indicates I’m now a bank teller, so going to my desk on my break isn’t an option. Not unless I want a bunch of people giving me the stink eye as to why I’m just sitting at my wicket and not helping them.

        Everyone does take an hour, and thanks to coverage rules, we kind of have to. When we come back is when the next person goes and coming back late or early could mess everything up when it comes to timing of procedures.

        Sometimes there are people to talk like in retail you are assigned a specific time to go, and a few people will overlap by half an hour on some days (there’s the assignment of 12-1, 12:30-1:30, and 1-2) but when you draw the 11-12 or 2-3 break you’re out of luck. The personal bankers have offices and typically do their own thing.

        I think I’m just going to have to get used to not doing some things so fast and bringing stuff to do on my break.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Good point, I should have remembered that jobs with solid shifts like that – especially dealing with money! – probably really do mean that hour.

    3. OhGee*

      I love to read on a longer lunch break, or go for a walk (I sit at a desk and have a long commute, so a lunchtime walk is sometimes the only exercise I get), or knit. I get a 45 minute break, but if I had an hour, I’d definitely spend more time writing, too.

      1. The Bank Teller Formerly Known as the Professional Sweater Folder*

        Man, I love to write, but I struggle to do so in public because when I get in the zone I narrate out loud what I’m writing and my new coworkers don’t need to hear my star wars fan fiction.

        But, ooh, I crochet. It would be nice to be able to do that without a cat trying to steal my yarn.

        2. whistle*

          If you crochet, there’s your answer! Listen to music or a pod cast on headphones and crochet away! You can also search for patterns online, look at patterns you already have to see if they will work, do swatching, etc. Maybe look into charities that will take crocheted items such as hats if you run out of projects for yourself (as if).

          1. whistle*

            Forgot to add – you could also look to expand into other needlecraft – knitting, tatting, etc. Get a teach yourself book and work through it while on break.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        I also knit at lunches. Also during conference calls.

        Knitting or taking a walk is the only way I ever managed to take a full hour lunch when I was mandated to. It was a weird transition to go from 30 minutes to an hour and took me a little to get used to.

        1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

          I read this at first as “I knit lunches,” and I was imagining, like, a crocheted burrito. It was a confusing few moments.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            It would be pretty meta to be knitting a lunch at lunch. I’d enjoy knitting a sandwich or something probably too much.

    4. Lunch*

      I would love an hour to myself. As it stands, I get resentment for just taking 30 minutes! I guess it’s a personality thing. Do you know anyone who can take a call that time of day? Sometimes it’s nice to call family/friends to check in.

    5. Overeducated*

      I have 30 minutes unpaid and honestly, I’d rather be able to eat at my desk and leave early or take a full hour. You can’t run errands or meet up with someone from outside your building in 30 minutes, but if my coworkers aren’t free to eat together and I’m just scarfing a sandwich, 10 minutes is plenty. I guess not being able to control how much time you need is the annoying part, not a specific length itself!

      Maybe try going on a walk, going to the post office or the drugstore, paying bills, dropping off dry cleaning, calling/emailing friends and family…there’s lots of random stuff that’s hard to do outside of 9-5 that a long lunch is good for.

    6. cwethan*

      I used to get out of the building and listen to a podcast that was about an hour long. That helped me feel less anxious about the time, because I knew I didn’t need to check the clock continuously, just go back inside when the podcast ended. And now that I’m at a job with a 30 minute lunch, I really can see the negative effects of *not* being able to switch my brain into non-work-mode for a good chunk of time. I used to be productive right up until home time (more or less), but now I take my 30 min — which is really more like 15 by the time I retrieve my lunch & find somewhere to sit and eat it — and then by 3 pm I’m bored and antsy.

    7. Not a Mere Device*

      Exercise? In a previous job, I selected a gym almost entirely for being close to my office, and would sometimes go there at lunchtime: about half an hour of exercise, 10 or 15 minutes for travel, shower, and changing, and then eat a quick sandwich or something. At another job I went for walks on most of my lunch hours.

  157. dorothy zbornak*

    Just found out that a coworker who made my life hell this past spring/summer is leaving. She’s a very nice person and I think she meant well but she had no basic understanding of what my team does and therefore would throw ridiculous last minute requests at us CONSTANTLY. Like one or two “I’m so sorry, I dropped the ball and need this ASAP” instances per month would be fine, but she gave us fire drills 3-4x per week. I haven’t worked with her as closely lately for whatever reason but I can’t say I’m not relieved.

  158. User Testing for a Friend*

    Does anyone have suggestions on how to find user testing work? This is for someone who is very smart, opinionated, tech savvy, and passionate about accessibility, but has been out of work since losing his vision a few years ago. I think he would be good at it but wanted to know what kind of work is available and where to look before suggesting it to him.

    1. AnotherJill*

      While there are jobs in accessibility testing, it can typically include a lot of visual confirmation. It would probably be rare to find a position limited to testing accessibility as a visually impaired user. But doing a search for accessibility testing on some of the jobs websites might turn something up.

      What he might want to look for are positions with societies for the blind that hire people to help blind users learn to use accessible software. I have a former student who is blind who has done that for quite a while.

      1. User Testing for Friend*

        Thanks, I thought that might be the case. We’re in a somewhat remote area but I do like your idea of teaching others.

    2. Mimmy*

      To add to AnotherJill’s comment: I work for my state agency for the blind. Many of the technology instructors are blind or visually impaired. It’s not accessibility testing, but as you pointed out, they are teaching others how to use various software used by the blind and visually impaired. If your friend is interested in accessibility of documents or websites, I can see this as a way of becoming aware of what makes a website or document accessible or inaccessible and sharing that knowledge with the students.

      Signed,
      A fellow AAM’er who is also passionate about accessibility :)

  159. eaviva*

    Does anyone have advice for getting into technical writing when you don’t have an English/journalism/communications/other related subject degree?

    I graduated a bit over a year ago with a bachelors in a field that requires a PHD for serious work and have been working a pays-the-bills-while-I figure-things-out office job since then. From everything I’ve read about technical writing it sounds like something I would be good at, but I don’t know how to get started. I’m not eligible for any internships (that I’ve found) because I’m not longer a student and it seems like every entry level job requires X years of experience that I don’t have. I’ve told my team lead about my interest and am slowly getting involved in writing documentation for our workflows, but is there anything else I can do?

    2. AnotherJill*

      If possible, I would consider taking a class or two to help judge your interest. There are a lot of online possibilities if nothing is available locally.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      milk it, friend. or google “imposter syndrome” to see if that rings a bell (most people’s reputations come from their actions, so if people are seeing value in what you do, it’s weird to disagree – unless, you have a
      super-competent assistant who is actually doing everything for you while you take credit?). But otherwise i’d say ask for a big raise and maybe plan to run for office.

      1. More anon than normal*

        Oh my imposter syndrome has imposter syndrome. And I don’t have an assistant :)

        I’ve been promoted twice recently and I don’t know what I’m doing yet. It’s strange. I’ve always been just one or two jobs up from the bottom before. Now I’m edging towards the middle and it feels very odd.

        as well as imposter syndrome I also have toxic-job-PTSD (as well as complex PTSD!) and maybe that doesn’t help either. Currently trying to train myself out of asking permission for every.little.thing.i.do.

    2. Alianora*

      Do your best work and be generous with praise. If someone helped you, make sure that it’s publicly acknowledged. As long as you’re not taking credit for someone else’s work or being dishonest in some other way, I don’t see how this could be a negative situation for you.

  161. Pregnancy leave snafu*

    I am frustrated with a report “Elly” who was going to be out on maternity leave. I’ve been working with her over the summer for her time away. Most of her projects are just being put on hold but there are a few that need immediate action if needed (think putting something on a webpage for example). She had assured me she had talked to the people involved in taking over these tasks (all these people are remote to each other), but then the baby came early, and when I reached out to the people with the news, they had not even known she was pregnant. They’re totally put off by this, since it clearly was something that could have been predicted and they’re hurt they didn’t even know about the pregnancy, and they’re feeling a bit taken for granted (they are Elly’s regular backups for vacation time, but no warning was hurtful). I’m unsure if I should have taken more of a hands on approach, on the other hand to me, Elly told me she was talking to the other people, so there was no reason to doubt this (she did talk to 2 other people who are taking over another part of the work). Of course, Elly is away now, so I can’t have a conversation with her, but I’m really annoyed at all this. How do I smooth this over and bring this up later on?

    1. Kathleen_A*

      I don’t know…”hurtful” seems a bit excessive – or maybe “inappropriate” is a better word. Elly certainly owned these people a heads-up that she was going to be on maternity leave, but if I were one of them, I wouldn’t be hurt. I’d be *angry*.

      So anyway, if I were you, I’d concentrate on helping these people get up to speed on the professional stuff and let the hurt feelings fall where they may. And I’d document all these holes in her preparation pretty thoroughly so you can go over it if/when Elly gets back. Honestly, this is so short-sighted and preventable that makes me wonder if she’s even planning to come back.

    2. Kj*

      How early did the baby come? If it was more than a month early, it is possible Elly thought she had more time. That doesn’t excuse telling you she’d talked to them when she hadn’t, but if the baby was majorly early, I could see how this could get away from her.

  162. Rockhopper*

    I have a one hour lunch break and I almost always use it to get out of the office. Sometimes I have errands but other days I just walk or if the weather is too iffy, I drive to a park nearby so I can look at trees and read in my car.
    On the rare day I can’t leave the office, the afternoon really drags for me.

  163. Overeducated*

    I’ve made it six months in my job, the goal is two years, but right now two years feels like a really long time! We’re in a rough transition thanks to a mass exodus that started about a month into my tenure and subsequent new management directions, and I keep telling myself to hold out until it gets better…well, one of the remaining staff members in our much reduced department quit this week, so that hoped-for improvement is receding from “maybe in October” back into the unknown.

    It wasn’t unexpected, but that’s another issue – I don’t think this person will be the last to go this year, and I’m not sure management thinks any staff-level hiring is a priority (if the other person who’s actively, vocally job searching leaves, we’ll be down to 1/3 of the staff here when I started 6 months ago). So now I have that “rats on a sinking ship” feeling. I’m hoping sticking around long enough to help stabilize could be really good for my career, but if it gets bad enough and I have too little autonomy to do much about it, I worry my career and/or sanity could drown.

  164. The One With the Bombastic Coworker*

    I sent in an update to Alison (spoiler alert, I did not kill Cersei) so hopefully that will be posted soon.

  165. PhyllisB*

    I’m ready to scream!! I had written a long detailed comment, then I accidentally hit some random key, and it disappeared!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So I’m writing this again. If it shows up twice, please forgive me.
    So here goes: Reading the question from the PhD who’s not sure what direction to go career-wise got me to thinking about my 33 year old son. He has a college degree (not a PhD) and I will expand more on that in a minute. He was studying Chemical Engineering, but had to drop out one semester short because he developed a drug problem.
    His first interest was pharmacy research, but my husband was afraid he wouldn’t make much money doing that so persuaded him to go a different direction. Knowing that wasn’t what he wanted to do, I insisted he do some internships and work study one semester to be sure that’s what he wanted to do. He seemed to enjoy the field and even contributed to a couple of published papers. But as I said, he developed a drug problem and had to return home.
    He went to our local college branch of his university and they cobbled something together to get him a bachelor’s degree. He now has a Bachelor of Science degree in Inter-Disciplinary Study Skills with minors in math, science and chemistry. He later went to an employment agency and the recruiter told him this was a Bull S–t degree and she could do nothing with it. (Probably true, but not very tactful.) He has been working at a liquor store for nearly four years now, and doing very well. He has received numerous raises and bonuses, and he is very well regarded there, but I know this is not what he wants to do with his life. Especially if he wants to marry and have a family. Or even just move out of Mom’s and Dad’s house.
    I don’t give him a lot of advice because after all, he is an adult, but I’ve been trying to think of suggestions to get him to the next level. The only thing I can think of is to advise him to take a career assessment test to see what direction this points to. I took one when I returned to college and I found it very enlightening. I didn’t pursue any of the career suggestions it gave, but it did get me to thinking about what I wanted to do. I mentioned this to him, and he told me already took one. I asked him when; and he said in the eighth grade. I told him there would a vast difference in what showed in the eighth grade and what would show now, and he agreed that was probably true.
    Do any of you have any other suggestions? (BTW, he DOES NOT want to teach.) He knows I read this site and he’s knows I’ve asked questions on here before, so he will not take it amiss if I say “My AAM friends suggested…” Also, if he does agree to take a career assessment, where would he go to take it? Do colleges give them? Will he have to go online? When I took mine it was in the nineties, and it was part of our business curriculum. Thanks for any help/ideas.
    He’s done really well with his recovery and I just want to see him in a fulfilling career.

    1. Temperance*

      Your husband gave him some pretty bad advice, IMO. Big pharma pays pretty well, actually.

      It sort of sucks that your son had to abandon his degree in Chemical Engineering when he was just one semester away. Is there anything he can do to get back on that track? It sucks that they more or less took away his chance to get the engineering degree and gave him something not useful unless he wanted to go to grad school.

      I would advise him to talk to the Career Center at his college. They should have alumni resources.

      1. Persimmons*

        Pharma does pay well, but everyone I know in pharma (from R&D through production) gets drug tested out the whazoo. He might have lost the job anyway.

      2. PhyllisB*

        Temprance, the reason he couldn’t get his degree here is because the courses he would need are not taught here. He would have to go back to Main Campus and either get another student loan plus housing, or we would have to pay for it and he didn’t want to do that. I appreciate that he doesn’t want us to shoulder the burden, but I would be willing to do it if he could find a direction to go. And I agree that my husband gave him bad advice. I said at the time that he should be allowed to follow his passion, but he didn’t want to disappoint his dad.

    2. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      Yeah, seconded – that wasn’t very good advice at all. Something in pharma or biotech would pay quite well and would mesh with his background.

    3. Seriously?*

      Is he open to getting a masters degree? Even if his current degree isn’t marketable on it’s own, he can probably use it to get into graduate school for a science degree and many masters degrees take 1-2 years. He can then use that degree to pursue a job in industry. Did he do any research when working towards either degree? If so he may be able to apply to jobs for a lab tech and then use that to transition into Pharma.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Would he consider other blue collar paths? I mention it because I have a relative who didn’t complete his college degree (failed out twice), and while joining the military was something he considered, it didn’t work out. He worked a retail/food service job for a few years and developed a good work ethic in the meantime, and then kind of randomly became a property surveyor. It suits him perfectly and while the pay/benefits aren’t the best, the hours are way better than retail and he’s definitely not living paycheck to paycheck even in a high COL area. He even had the opportunity to get promoted but it meant doing desk work and he’s not interested.

    5. Overeducated*

      I have an awesome friend who became a pharmacist based on a reddit AMA after a few years lacking direction! She did part time classes to do the prereqs for pharmacy school (with those minors your son may have a lot under his belt already), has now graduated, and was correct that she could find decently paid work anywhere in the country. If pharmacy’s not up his alley, maybe check out reddit?

      1. Forking great username*

        I do think it’s worth noting that a pharmacy might not be the most healthy workplace for someone who has struggled with drug addiction. I hear that it’s the field he was originally interested in, but I’m not so sure mom should be encouraging him to go back towards that direction.

        2. PhyllisB*

          Forking, I wasn’t really encouraging him to go back in that direction (I hear you about the drug addiction factor) I just want him to go in a direction that he will be happy in. I know he is a math/science/chemistry nerd so I would like to see him find a direction that would maybe include that.

    6. LCL*

      If he is doing really well in the retail business, he may be a business guy at heart. I know nothing of that career track, but someone out here does. Someone who can write, do research, and understands math and statistics sounds like a candidate for retail headquarters to me. You are so right about him taking the assessment asap.

    7. WellRed*

      I think you and your husband need to let your 33 year old son forge his own path. Support his choices from afar, of course, but back off.

      1. Youth*

        Yeah, it sounds like you guys got a little overly invested when he was choosing his career and that it’s had some negative effects on him. I know you’re trying to help, but as the child of an over-invested mom, I think there’s something to be said for weighing in only when he directly asks for your input.

        1. PhyllisB*

          Youth, I agree. But he has asked for my input and that’s why I put this question out here. I only want my children to follow their dreams and be happy with what they are doing. (I realize that everyone is not thrilled with their jobs, but you know what I mean.) I did tell my husband I thought he should back off, but it didn’t register.I just know he wants to move forward but doesn’t really know how to do it.

    8. D.Va Online*

      What about librarianship? A MSLS/MLS/MLIS/whatever a given school calls it can be done online in less than 2 years, and having background knowledge in STEM fields can give candidates a leg up whenplaces are hiring subject liaisons (this is mostly at university libraries), informatacists, or even medical or clinical librarians. This kind of specialized librarianship was not something I even knew existed before library school, but it could be a good fit, especially with his interest in research.

      To that end, maybe look into the steps he’d need to take for a research coordinator type position at a university.

      1. PhyllisB*

        Hmmmmmmmmmmmm… I never thought about librarianship roles. I don’t know if there’s anything like that in our city, but it’s a thought. Thank you for the suggestion.

    9. Grace Less*

      I’m wondering more about the type of work environment he would prefer. I’d hes interested in an 8-5 with similar days, then he’d want to look at roles at traditional corporations. If he likes the public interaction of his retail job, then something academic or at a park might be better. If he likes hands-on work, and working independently, I’m thinking that a role at a water treatment facility/wastewater treatment plant might be fantastic. It’s very STEM, but not theoretical.
      If he’s open to possibilities and interested in a change, he should attend career fairs at the school where he graduated, or open career fairs at other schools. There will be companies there with diverse opportunities, and they’ll be pushing the hard-to-fill roles. His diverse degree is going to thrill the right company!

  166. Beancounter in Texas*

    In my department, there are a couple of people who are like peers to the controller – a banking & reports person and an analyst – and I believe they all report to the CFO. About six months ago, our VP left the company and most of her duties fell to the banking & reports guy. One of the tasks she asked me to complete involved switching a credit card deposit account from ACME Bank to A1 Bank. All of our subsidiaries were switching to A1 Bank and any accounts left at ACME Bank were going to be cash deposit accounts only. When I went online to switch the credit card deposit account, it required details to which I didn’t have access, so I asked the banking/reports guy if he could give it to me or complete it for me. He said he’d complete it for me. My first request was March 30th. I followed up in July when we got another (rare) credit card deposit and now it’s September and it is still not switched. He’s on vacation today, and I’m following up with him via email to remind him to do this, but 1) it’s not really that important and 2) I want to copy the CFO to highlight that this task is taking way too long. I don’t know whether that’s a good call though. I’m frustrated that it’s taking this long to complete a simple task that I could do if he would give me the documentation I need, but to obtain the documentation (if we don’t have it already) requires more than authority than my title. What’s my next move?

  167. could i do your job?*

    I need a big career change that includes semi-regular hours and health insurance and maybe even PTO. 40+ hr/week with no weekends. I love doing short term research or fact-finding missions. I love finding what’s broken or wrong with something (physical thing, data, work process failure, etc). I am completely over working with general public, and would prefer contributing to a team effort than working solo in my own silo. I got a degree about 10 years ago, in a discipline where no one works in that specific discipline without getting a graduate degree. I had 3.5 years of white collar experience related to that discipline, followed by 2 years bottom of the barrel service industry and 5 years in an awesome but ultimately dead-end field (think ski instructor, living history tour guide, assistant surf board maker, etc)

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I have had good luck in nonprofit office environments, starting with titles like “program coordinator” – basically, you just need to have good social skills and organization skills, but the jobs tend to be pretty cushy and you get benefits. Not the highest salaries obviously but that’s kind of the price you pay.

    2. periwinkle*

      “An optimist sees this glass as half-full. A pessimist sees it as half-empty. A Lean expert wonders why the glass is 2x requirements.”

      If that sounds like you, process improvement could be a great direction for you. I work for a manufacturing company and we have a lot of Six Sigma/Lean people looking at processes/quality – and not just on the factory floor. The above is from a poster put up by one of the (many, many) Lean teams looking at engineering processes.

      1. nonegiven*

        I really never got the half full or half empty thing but not the glass twice as big as needed, either.

        I can make no value judgement on X oz water in a 2X oz glass, except I wouldn’t want it in a X oz glass, either, too easy to spill.

  168. Knitty Gritty*

    Late Friday rant: I sometimes hate being a woman in technology. It really sucks when a male developer sends me a “helpful link” about dealing with code issues that a newbie should be able to handle. Yeah, thanks dude. I’ve been doing this for 15 years, I got this. grrrr

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I wish you really could say something! “uh thanks for the tip chadwick, but this seems too basic for our problem with X coding thing that’s related to Y technical problem.” If they’re nice, I think you could even politely address it with them.

      1. Knitty Gritty*

        I actually did reply! I said that it is great advice to pass on to the new folks, but that I’m good. I really hope he didn’t take my reply to be snarky because I’m sure he sent it over wanting to be helpful. He is a nice guy overall, just not used to working with with a woman with more dev experience than he has.

        1. JessicaTate*

          Good reply! And try to not feel so concerned about how he took the message. I’m sure he is nice, that he meant well, and just not used to the situation… BUT he needs to get used to it. Good on you for not just ignoring it and addressing it directly (and without making it a big deal). We all need to do this when it happens. Not treat someone like he’s a villain, but let him know “that was a misstep.” The nice guys will learn, but they need to hear it.

          (And I say this knowing that it’s something I need to get better at doing! Reminding myself as much as anything else.)

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Glad you found it helpful! It’s actually something I’m pretty familiar with, so if you have any questions about it, let me know.”

    4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      “Oh wow that takes me back to when I was brand new to this… glad you find it as helpful as I did 10 years ago”

    5. AnotherJill*

      Maybe I’m too direct, but I would go to him and ask him why he sent it. There could be an innocent reason, so why silently seethe? And if it wasn’t innocent, it could be an enlightening moment for him.

  169. Gaia*

    I had a phone screen with a company today for a role that seems promising. They’ve asked me to interview Monday and I’m hoping for some advise on a concern that I have.

    This is a large, international company with global headquarters on the west coast. My city is home to their financial headquarters and that is where the role is located. However, it used to house about 500 employees. Back in 2014, they outsourced about 300 jobs from this location (1,200 total globally) and did so in a particularly disgraceful way. An email was sent out company wide congratulating the company on making an important financial metric by getting rid of “low value employees” through the layoffs. The laid off employees were still there when this email went out. People were livid. It made the news. The company never commented.

    Now, things seem stable there. I’ve otherwise heard good things about the culture. Reviews online look solid (complaints are minimal and run along the same lines expected for this industry). But, it is important to me to know that something was changed after this occurred, or at least that they realize it was in very poor taste. Any ideas on how to broach this topic?

      1. Gaia*

        I get that, and if I wasn’t hearing such great things from current employees, I would do so. I’d really like to keep these guys in consideration so I’m trying to think of ways to raise this and at least gauge the reaction.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I can understand wanting to know that the company gets how much they insulted their workers with that memo, but I’m not sure who you could get that assurance from. Individuals at the first level management/HR level would probably tell you they were also disappointed with how the success of the company was framed, if you brought it up. If you did, I might say it like, “Hmm, I remember from the news a few years ago, there was a lot of bad feelings about a memo that seemed to devalue the employees. Can you tell me a little more about what internal changes were made afterwards to improve morale/employee perception that they were valued?”

  170. Lolli*

    Is Technical Writer a career? My staff is very technical but only a few of them have the ability to create documentation. They end up with too much on their plates because they haven’t shared the knowledge. I would like to hire an Intern to interview people about the products they support and create knowledge base articles. But I don’t know if there are college students studying that right now. Am I way off base or this a thing?

    2. Kathleen_A*

      Yes, it is absolutely a career, and in fact there’s even a specialized degree, although quite a few people who are technical writers transitioned from another form of writing. I just checked and the university in my state with the largest journalism school offers a BA in “English, Technical and Professional Writing.”

      1. Seriously?*

        People transition the other way too. I know people with degrees in science and engineering who do technical writing now.

    4. Youth*

      Yes! It’s similar to what I do, and it’s a role a lot of people with writing-related degrees and experience end up in.

      Conducting interviews probably wouldn’t be the norm for this type of position though, so you’ll want to make that expectation clear up front.

  171. Post Script*

    I’m thinking of making the switch from a large Fortune 100 company to a late-stage startup (6 years old, 1000 employees). What should I be asking during the interview process? What should I be concerned about and what have your experiences been with making this kind of switch?

  172. Danae*

    So it looks like the company I’m contracting at may well be interested in hiring me. This would be so amazing—this company has great benefits, pays well, and my manager is very committed to me. And I love my job—this is easily the best job I’ve had in a very long time.

    The catch: I live in Seattle. The job is in Austin.

    I just moved into the perfect apartment, after a year of living in an awful place. I’ve lived here for over 20 years, so my family and my wholesale support network is here. I love the Pacific Northwest, love the weather, and I hate being hot.

    I’m trying to decide if the amazing job would be worth living in Texas. Everything I know about Austin comes from books and a work trip I made there recently. It’s hot, it’s brown, and it might be a liberal city, but it’s still in Texas (and I’m a lesbian, soooooo I have some stuff to worry about).

    I don’t know. This is by no means a done deal, but I think it’s going to come down to the offer they make me. If they’re paying me enough to live in an actual house with an actual garage (something I’ll never be able to afford in Seattle) I might go for it. I can always come back once I’ve gotten some career advancement under my belt, right?

    1. McWhadden*

      You should definitely weigh the impact of having to leave behind much of your support network. And the weather thing can be a real hassle. But Austin is a really fun city. And while there is no denying that Texas is over all conservative, even outside of Austin it’s not always as socially conservative as people thing. For instance, one of the first open lesbian mayors in the country was mayor of Houston (most populous city of Texas.) And Austin is definitely an LGBTQ friendly town. (I’m also a lesbian.)

      1. It's Pronounced Bruce*

        Yeah, I don’t want to say that the fear people have about going to Texas is unfounded, but it’s definitely overblown. I road trip all over the state and occasionally you’ll hit pockets where people will stare or be less overtly friendly (if you’re different in a visually obvious way) but really American cities are American cities. I’ve lived in every region for at least a few years and have had to use the same amount of awareness for safety in all of them, +/- some depending on how rural the area. Truly and honestly, the proximity to a population center is the deciding factor, not whether the state as a whole is red or in the south or whathaveyou.

    2. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      So….I think Austin is probably the best place to live in Texas if you’re queer, brown, liberal, non-Christian, and/or a happy freak. It’s a rad city, the food and drink is top notch, the Hill Country is right there. I lived in San Antonio, right down the road, and actually liked it quite a lot too. My queer, brown, liberal, non-Christian, freaky wife was never uncomfortable or made to feel unwelcome or not part of.

      But. I got a call from my boss and an offer to relocate to the not terribly amazing Colorado city where I went to high school and grew up north of, and the decision to boogie was made before the sentence was finished. Because the mountains, you see. And the culture. And the smell of the first cold morning in fall.

      Texas is hot. 108 and 96% humidity is a thing all summer long, and I left butt prints in sweat on chairs sometimes. I am not a sweaty dude.

      Texas is….different. Public land, conservation, and the commons are not respected concepts there. Parks are small, private land is big. Your business is often construed to be someone else’s business. It can be tribal, in-groupy, and insular.

      Texas is, aside from a few small blue islands, a big, red state. Once, stopping for gas in a small town on a road trip, my wife yelled something to our son in Hebrew and got an old lady demanding to know if she was an Ay-rab and what she was yellin’ about.

      I think you’d move to Texas and find it…..okay to good. There’s quite a lot in Austin that’s so cool that it outweighs the above. It’d be worth spending five years there. But the PNW is kind of like Colorado – I suspect you’d go home at the drop of a hat.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      A relative who lived in Austin for a while told me they have two seasons… summer and February. And she’d moved there from a not-particularly-cool state, so it’s not like she just wasn’t acclimated. If you hate being hot, there’s a good chance you will hate it.

      1. Sharkie*

        My boyfriend grew up in Austin and he says it is the most “normal” part of Texas. His sister lives there still, is a lesbian and doesn’t have problems.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I lived in Houston for years and visited Austin pretty frequently. Austin is the Portland of Texas (“keep it weird!”), and other than Houston, probably the best place in Texas for liberal lifestyles. Houston because it’s so, so massive that everyone has a community, and Austin because of the very large university, growing Silicon Prairie (I think that’s what the start-up culture is called?), and general alternative outlooks of the residents.

      However. The heat and lack of rain is no joke, and the Austin culture can be fun but only if that’s valuable to you (it wouldn’t sway me, for example). Starting over in a new place is rough, especially when visiting family and friends involves a 4+ hour flight. I made the same calculation in reverse when I moved to the PNW a decade ago – was dreading the weather and the insular reputation, was drawn by the job and the scenery. (Had I known about the wretched traffic, who knows what I would have done!) Still hate the dark skies and the Seattle Freeze is a real thing, but I’m here to stay.

    5. It's Pronounced Bruce*

      Oh hey, I’m a queer woman who’s lived in both cities and can actually give useful advice for a change. Wooo!

      I wouldn’t recommend moving to Austin. Not because of the sexuality aspect (you really and truly do not need to worry about that in central TX any more than you do in the sound) but for a lot of other very practical reasons. And get this: I chose Austin over Seattle, so I’m actually biased against my own advice here because I don’t think there’s a dollar amount that could make me go back to Seattle. But objectively, Seattle is a more livable city in a lot of ways. BUT. You’re right that you can always leave later, so if the move is really good for your career than you can probably suck it up. Nothing about Austin is untenable, it just… Kinda sucks a lot of the time, in quality of life ways.

      One, yeah, it’s always hot. And humid. It’s about as humid as Seattle, only also over 90 degrees most of the year. This isn’t something I think most people are gonna be super concerned with but I can say that me going from Seattle to Austin made me hate the weather in Austin a thousand times more than I did previously… And I also hated the weather in Seattle plenty, because I hate being cold. I like the heat. The heat with the humidity is awful after a while. It’s not bad early in the summer but by November when it finally starts to cool off you are fed entirely up.

      The traffic in Austin is as bad as Seattle, as is the sprawl. Only Austin has almost no public transit, so you get to sit in it in your car the whole time. Austin’s parking situation is generally better, but that’s not great consolation. Also the sprawl in Austin means you’re not gonna take a ride share from your apartment to a dinner or whatever, because that will cost you some $25. In Seattle it might be that much but you don’t have to go to the dead center of downtown to get to a good bar or a good restaurant– in Austin you do.

      A big thing that I hate about Austin is that the health care quality here is terrible. And the clinic & hospital networks are always bouncing around different insurance agreements, so every year I have to change all my doctors and do more dances around getting my prescriptions written and covered. I miss my Seattle doctors something fierce.

      Also, the food and bar scene is way better in Seattle. Austin does not have a surplus of quality places to eat. Also in Austin if anything interesting is happening (a festival, a holiday) the traffic shuts half the city down. And the lines for whatever it is are outrageous. You wanna go to one of the many events by town lake? Well, you have to drive 30-50 minutes to downtown and park in a garage. Then get in line for the shuttle that goes to the event. For some events the line for the shuttle is hours long. It’s insane. And when you get to the thing it’s such wall to wall people it’s not even enjoyable anymore. There are beautiful swimming holes around the city that have lines or close entirely in the summer because too many people are trying to go there. It didn’t used to be this way! It’s because of how many people have relocated to Austin in recent years.

      Also, renting a house in Austin (or buying, god forbid) is basically Mad Max. You will likely need to be out in the burbs to be able to move here on the timeline your job might want. Centrally located rentals or affordable houses don’t pop up extremely often. Buying isn’t as Mad Max as it is in Seattle, but it’s approaching that level of shenanigans quickly. So on your business trips when you’re staying in a downtown hotel and walking to all those lovely restaurants and taking buses… That is not how you’re gonna be living there.

    6. Anonny*

      Lived in Seattle for 5 years and currently live in Austin. The heat and humidity are seriously no joke, but I’d still pick Austin’s climate over Seattle due to SAD. If you’re not an outdoorsy person you won’t really be suffering too much because everything’s air conditioned. I think both cities have a lot in common; major university culture, thriving music and foodie scene, younger populations, liberal politics, traffic, insane housing markets… We also have a decently sized LGTBQ community and awesome pride events, but there’s still work to be done. One thing that was a bit of a shock was how segregated everything still is and gentrification and affordable housing are real issues.

      My one piece of advice if you do decide to move here is to live on the same side of town as your work and plan on driving everywhere as public transportation sucks. Also, prepare to miss seeing large bodies of water.

  173. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    Hi all, first time commenter here! Discovered this site a few months ago while working in my first office job and it’s been a lifesaver.
    I’m a few years out of college and (after several years of short-term retail/service work so i could travel) am now a receptionist in a law firm in a major west coast city. It’s generally a really nice place to work with kind, supportive people, but it’s still weird at times as I’m the youngest by at least 10 years in an office of 70ish people, and I look even younger than I am. Sometimes staff will use condescending “mothering” language with me, which I get the sense that they didn’t do with the previous receptionist, who was actually younger than me, but was a man, so…..how do you deal with this kind of thing? Should I be worried about not being taken seriously, or is my judgment skewed because I don’t have any real peers here? Also, how do I get people at the top of the food chain to answer my emails, especially when I’m contacting them on behalf of others who have instructed me to?
    And this is totally unrelated, but….I have quite a bit of free time here. Generally, I can keep busy with projects, trainings, etc, but sometimes there’s just nothing to do. I’d like to do something with my time that’s at least worthwhile on a personal level, whether it’s just picking up a skill, or learning something new. There’s also an understanding with this job that I will have free time, and I can fill it how I choose. What would you all recommend, apart from reading this blog? Please give me your best front-desk time sucking websites/activities. :)

    1. Rocinante*

      My local library lends out digital books through Overdrive, which lets me read them through browsers. You may want to look into if your library does that if you enjoy reading. It will look like a typical web page on your computer and will automatically remember where you are if you close the window. Obviously there are some skills/self-improvement books you can read, but I use it to read classic/popular books people talk about but I’ve never had time to read.

    2. Quill*

      At last job I filled a lot of time during the holiday doing excel tutorials. As a result, I was able to impress my mentor recently by making a table that automatically told you if a teapot was in spec or not.

      There are a lot of free word, excel, and power point courses out there, and they have the advantage of 1) actually looking like work and 2) legitimately being something that improves your work skills.

    3. Mananana*

      Learn everything you can about Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and/or whatever software systems your firm uses. And, of course, talk to your boss. Ask if there’s other things you can take on that would benefit the firm.

  174. Totally Not Me*

    We hired someone almost a year ago because their online portfolio was amazing and they appeared to be exactly what we needed. I gave them a lot of leeway in learning the job because they came in at the time where I was burnt out so I really couldn’t coach them. It was easier to shunt them to the projects that were simple. Also that’s how I learn.

    A bit ago I was frustrated with his performance . Along the lines of “teapots should be able to withstand boiling water. Your tea pot is constructed in such a way that it will break when boiling water is poured into it”. I looked up their online portfolio and did some google searching. It was not their own work really. Along the lines of “Here is a kit and all the parts you’ll need to make a functional teapot with the help of our instructions”. Because reasons my company isn’t letting him go right now.

    What I need help with: whenever I have to look over his product and tell him patiently what’s wrong and why I get angry. When his product comes back to me afterwards not fixed I get angry. When I have to fix the product because it needs to be done I get angry. I don’t like feeling angry. There is a light at the end of the tunnel but how do I deal with the next while? I would like to just check out but I can’t because I’m responsible for the quality of what our little group of teapot makers produce.

    1. Nita*

      This person should be the responsibility of whoever has decided not to let them go (despite them having faked their portfolio?) Can you go to whoever made that call, and ask them to find the new hire a more suitable assignment? Be clear that their work is affecting the quality of your product, and often needs to be re-done.

      Also, can’t tell, but is the new hire making any attempts to learn the work, or just coasting along? If they’re open to learning, maybe they can be given training (a class, online courses, or something) Getting hired on fake experience is never a good start, but *if* they’re making an effort to catch up, maybe they’re not hopeless.

    2. Close Bracket*

      Sounds like you are not his boss? The options are different if he reports to you vs. doesn’t report to you.

      I think you need to separate him doing poor work and you getting angry at his poor work. I think your anger is fully justified, and I would be a ball of rage in your place. In fact, I have been in a place similar to yours, and I was a ball of rage. To address the rage, try the tactic where you pretend he is a rare species and you are a behavioralist observing his habits. “Oh look, the Fergus Domesticus has again designed a teapot that will break upon exposure to hot water. Members of Fergus Domesticus often produce piss poor work products as a dominance or strategic incompetence strategy. Let’s see if I can determine which this is” Or whatever.

      As to his quality of work and your ability to impact it, that appears to be zero (both to the quality and to your ability to impact it). So, look at what you *can* do. Can you bring the problems with his work to his boss (assuming you are not his boss)? I’m thinking of a meeting or a memo or something where you document every time he did something wrong and you worked to fix it. Can you give at least some of his work to someone else to fix?

      If you are his boss, you can keep records for his performance review on what he is doing wrong. That won’t make his work better, but at least you can give him bad reviews. If you have other direct reports, you can assign some portion of his fixes to them. That will suck for everybody involved, but you can take the approach of “we’re in this together” to try to mitigate some of the resentment.

      Find out just what your accountability is for his shitty work, too. I’ve assumed that I would be blamed for things other people did, and sometimes I was right and sometimes I was wrong. Find out which things you won’t be held accountable for and let them slide.

      Meanwhile, keep putting energy into the things you love about your job and spend more time reflecting on how much satisfaction you get from them.

      Hang in there.

      1. Oranges*

        As to am I his boss: It’s a weird gray area. I’m the last word in my little group for what we should do and how it should be done. Also making sure that what is done is up to standard. Think supervisor vs manager.

        The boss knows about it and that’s the light at the end of the tunnel. She has my back on this but due to previous issues she’s doubtful about my objectivity (which were/are totally my fault). So I have to be extra professional around this. Which is kinda hard with being angry.

        Sadly we are a tiny group so it’s not possible to give his work to someone else.

        I REALLY like your scripts for distancing myself from his screwups. Because thinking of him as a genus of “person who can’t job” (at least at this particular job) is helpful.

    3. Sunny Day Saturday*

      ” I gave them a lot of leeway in learning the job because they came in at the time where I was burnt out so I really couldn’t coach them. It was easier to shunt them to the projects that were simple. Also that’s how I learn.”

      I would tread carefully with this situation as it could backfire on you. If adverse actions is taken against the employee your statements above would be a field day for any employment attorney or Unemployment investigator.

  175. Stranger than fiction*

    So, are we no longer allowed to express any frustration in the workplace without someone being all sensitive about it?
    My bf has been working with an underperforming development team that leadership refused to do anything about until he finally had enough and showed some frustration in a meeting last month. To cover his ass, the lead that’s been causing most of the issues, delays, and refusing to communicate, ran to HR like a baby and said he felt threatened and bf was being hostile.
    They had to send everyone home and perform a two week investigation! During which, they determined the lead was in fact exaggerating. I believe he was put on a pip, and ended up resigning a few weeks later. But my bf still feels like he’s being punished. He’s getting double messages from management like “thank you. You shed a light on some serious issues we need to address”, and the next minute “boy you sure kicked up a lot of dirt and made a lot of work for us” and “we need to teach you how to respond to frustration better” and they have him consulting with a coach once a week to “learn how to apologize”. He told the coach that whole team as well as leadership really owes him an apology for being such dicks (he didn’t use that term) to him and sabotaging his project for the past two years, but that he’d comply. After the first week, even the consultant didn’t understand why they are making him meet with him.
    Thoughts? I saw the recent article on bosses who yell in the workplace, but this wasn’t anything like that. No name calling, no screaming, just firm and voice slightly raised in a “come on guys!’” kind of way.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Oh he is searching for sure. But I’ve noticed this pattern in general…when people don’t like someone, they’ll cry hostile or trigger or some other buzzword that should be used when appropriate, but not abused to cover your ass. So it creates a culture of fear where people can’t express themselves.

        1. irene adler*

          “After the first week, even the consultant didn’t understand why they are making him meet with him.”

          Thank you!!

          Seems like everyone is in drama queen mode -running to HR over any perceived slight or imagined threat. Probably don’t have enough going on in their personal lives.

          I’m sorry bf has to put up with this. I’ve done plenty of “oh, come on!” when things get stressful or aren’t going how they should.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      He can use the time with the consultant to learn every bit of the bulletproof, fully professional language to use the next time he wants to calmly raise very grave concerns. I find “Help me understand…” to be a great opener to very pointed, but politely worded questions that make the point that Stuff Be Wrong Here.

  176. IrishEm*

    I’m in a little bit of an awkward-overthinking phase about something that came up in conversation in New Job about an unsavoury part of Old Job, and I’m not sure if I need to do any damage control.

    Backstory: I worked one retail job for 7 years and for five non-consecutive years a few managers, and one ringleader manager used to bully the team I worked in over using the toilet. I still have a lot of anxiety about my toilet habits to this day, like, four/five years on. I got a new, different retail job in the same shopping centre and they treat me like an adult who can use the toilet a normal amount. Which is great, but I explained my anxiety by disclosing the bullying (no names, no genders nothing identifiable, just Manager and Person).
    I don’t want to cause any trouble for my former employers, who were not all this person – I’ve read enough letters here to know that a few bad apples can create toxic work environments, so it’s not Employer’s fault that there was bullying, but have I put my foot in my mouth by disclosing the bullying so near to Old Job? Some ppl I know from Old Job (not the bully ringleader, that person left before I did) come in to buy product from New Job. I doubt most of my colleagues wouldn’t raise it, but there’s one guy who has No Filter who knows about the bullying and I’m worried he’ll say something to someone.

    I also don’t want to come across as bitching about OldJob, because I was there for 7 years, there was a lot of good stuff about it, it’s just the bullying had a real and lasting impact on my life and I’m working to unpack it five years on. Uuuuuggggghhh I just don’t want to be That Bitch, but I also want to be up front about stuff that’s impacting my life. How do I navigate this? Or do I just leave it be?

    TL;DR I was bullied in OldJob, which is near NewJob, and I’m worried that my disclosure of said bullying might come back to bite me in the ass.

    1. AdminX2*

      I don’t think anyone will think anything at any point in time.

      Play the what if game?

      What if loudmouth says something? Think it through, really decide what the most reasonable result is.

      Then what if Next Awful Thing Happens because of that? Think it through, really decide what your worst outcome is at that point.

      After that, if no one is dead or in the hospital, it will be manageable. Maybe not awesome, but ok and something you will deal with.

      And don’t mention it to anyone ever again except awesome therapists and other personal support network people who are not coworkers.

      1. IrishEm*

        Thank you. I have the worst tendency to overthink, and I needed some independent eyes on this. This is very helpful :)

  177. Indy Rox*

    I took some ‘predictive testing’ today for a potential position. I was answering the 50 questions in 12 minutes, and got 40 questions through before I ran out of time. I am freaking out! Does anyone have any data on how these are scored? The position is a director of a large PMO.

    Please tell me I did not just lost my chance at this job.

    1. Nacho*

      50 questions in 12 minutes is a lot. That’s more than a question every 15 seconds. I won’t say it’s impossible that they were expecting you to answer them all since I don’t know what the questions were, but I think it’s a lot more likely that most people don’t manage all 50, and that they won’t drop you out of the running just because you only managed to answer 80%.

      1. Indy Rox*

        Thank you Nacho! I actually went back and took the same test online via the institute that does the testing and scores 98th percentile. Apparently most people get halfway through.

        They were IQ test style question – If all flooks are snooks and some snooks are blooks, what color is the sky? What’s the next number in the sequence etc.

        Fingers crossed!

  178. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

    So this is a basically trivial work problem and I have no problem with it getting buried way down here, but it’s a new one for me: I work in the middle of nowhere. Like, “doop de doo, on the way to work, my the prairie is pretty this morning, oh dang I am going 97” middle of nowhere. Aside from two military dining halls whose options are stuck in about 1992, a small, odd convenience store, and the occasional food truck, there are zero options for lunch. If I forget to pack a lunch, I’m left with a sad iceberg lettuce salad, $9 greek salad from a truck where I’m always tempted to get a load of fries, or “oriental fried rice” and salisbury steak. I need to get on the ball with routinely prepping proteins and toppings for salads and making lunch, because my usual routine of “bring leftovers, unless I forget in which case maybe grab a taco or something” is so very not a thing.

    I generally grill off some chicken once or twice a week and have that around for salads and tacos and so on, but anybody else got some kickass work lunch solutions that will satisfy someone who likes food, likes to not weigh 200lb, and doesn’t like menus from the early Clinton administration?

    1. Sharkie*

      I have some protein bars in my car for this reason! I really like the special K ones.

      Also, what do you mean menus from the Clinton administration? Dunkaroos and Surge?!?!?!

      1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

        No, just more like menu items that have not been seen anywhere else since the Clinton admin – like salisbury steak. It’s a weird time warp. There’s also guys around who wear bolo ties.

    2. GeekChick603*

      Baby Spinach salad:

      a couple handfuls of fresh baby spinach
      1/4 cup of Feta cheese crumbles
      1/4 cup of dried cranberries
      some diced red onion
      1/4 cup of your choice of nuts (walnuts, almonds, cashews, etc.)
      2 Tablespoons of your favorite salad dressing

      1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

        I generally find that I need more protein, but that sounds like a great salad – maybe add chicken? I think my problem is I need a system/approach to making lunch.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      When I was working at a place with limited food options (though not as limited as you!), I would always keep a few backup meals at the office. It’s not a super kickass everyday solution, but keeping a lean cuisine or two in the office freezer (or some other frozen meal, there’s tons of options that are pretty tasty and not terrible for you) and a couple things of soup/stew in my desk were awesome to have on days that I forgot to pack my lunch.

    4. Celeste*

      It’s not a trivial problem because you do need to eat well.

      My suggestion is to order some reusable lunch containers for the week, and pack them (as much as possible) on Sunday nights. Individually packaged items like servings of cheese and yogurt are your friends. So are fresh veggies that keep well (sugar snap peas, carrots, cucumber, celery). Deli meats pack ahead well, too, and so does grilled chicken or hard boiled eggs. Maybe the night before you can add in some leftover items you would eat cold. Whatever it is, have it as a grab and go. Some things like fresh berries are worth doing the night before to be sure they’re okay, but something like clementines or a small apple would work, too. Lots of things come in single-serving containers for eating on the go now. If you can get in the habit of pre-packing, then you might consider investing in some containers to hold small quantities of these things. Good luck! I think it’s definitely worth the effort to invest in better food for yourself.

      1. Celeste*

        Snacky plate: cheese and crackers, salami slices, olives, grapes.
        Hummus, pita, olives, marinated veggies. Assemble when you’re ready to eat.

      3. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

        This is exactly what I was looking for! I feel like I’ve been kind of stumbling in this direction, but this gives me lots of ideas how to work it in. Just trying to do it in the morning when everybody is flapping around trying to pack their bags and the boy isn’t wearing pants and we have to leave in 15 minutes is not a thing.

    5. Sloan Kittering*

      Yeah, I handle this with A Plan and A Backup Plan. Plan is that I make a big crock pot of hearty soup on Sundays and set out five containers in the fridge (freeze the rest, also in containers – I can alternate this month and last month’s soups). But sometimes I run out the door without grabbing the soup, so Backup Plan is that I keep almonds or snack bars at my desk and a frozen meal in the work fridge. If I do run out and grab Bad Idea lunch once a week or so I’ll give myself a mulligan since I’m eating so healthy the rest of the week.

    6. periwinkle*

      Freezer meals could be a solution. Leaving the building for lunch is a logistical nope, and my lunch options are a rather dreadful cafeteria or BYO. I stick with BYO. I like to make big batches of stewed or braised food and freeze it in lunch-sized portions. (start with a plastic container, then pop it into a vacuum-sealed bag to prevent freezer burn or another “crap, the beef stew leaked inside my backpack” incident). In the morning, grab a portion and zoom out the door. Appropriate accoutrements and utensils are stashed in my desk.

      For a protein-packed healthy lunch, I’m devoted to my chili recipe – ground turkey, three kinds of beans (black, kidney, cannellini), chunks of tomato and sweet potato, pearl onions, chopped kale/collard greens/spinach, and mushrooms. Saute the turkey, roast the veggies a little, add tons of chili, throw the whole thing into the Instant Pot, and that’s it. It makes me grateful that the PacNW is cool and gray 9 months of the year because that’s a great excuse to eat all the chili.

      1. Anna Held*

        Backup of nuts, dried fruit, peanut butter, crackers or rice cakes, and other semi-healthy snack items to get you through when you forget your lunch or didn’t have time to pack anything good (or left it on the kitchen counter. Not that I would ever do such a thing.) I also recommend some low-sodium V8 juice or kefir to keep you going. Also, bring some fruit or extra veggie sticks or even an extra lunch on days early in the week when you’ve got it together. That way you have leeway later in the week.

    7. Mananana*

      My plan is a simple one, and works well if you’re okay with eating basically the same thing for lunch every day.

      I make a gigantic bowl of salad (sans dressing and meat) on Sunday. Every evening when I get home, I put salad and some type of protein* in a tupperware. I keep salad dressing at work. So in the morning, I just need to put my salad, yogurt, and fruit in a cooler bag before I walk out the door. The salad is still fresh by Friday.

      *I cook a big batch of chicken breasts at once, cut into bite-size chunks and freeze on a cookie sheet. Those then go into freezer bag. I’ll just toss the frozen chicken chunks on top of my salad when I make it the night before; it’s perfect when it’s time for lunch.

    8. Candy*

      Can you keep some options at work for the “crap, my lunch is on the kitchen counter!” moments?

      Cans of soup, or those shelf-stable Indian meals? Maybe a jar of peanut butter and some crackers? Or throw a few frozen meals in the office freezer, if possible?

      1. Jaid_Diah*

        The Indian grocery near me sells those packages of various curries that you can heat and eat, just add rice or naan. Two brands, one for 1.29 and the other is 1.75. Watch out for the sodium content, though!

        I’ve made butter chicken, only substituting chunks of extra firm tofu. Eventually I’ll start using vegan creamer and yogurt to make it vegan… It does freeze well, so you can make it in advance.

    9. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Those Starkist tuna or chicken packets are great to keep in your desk drawer for the days when you forget to grab your lunch. I also keep a couple of individual rice cups in my desk. And sometimes ramen. I also keep a ton of snacky things on hand like crackers.

    10. EmmaBird*

      I’m very strict about always having a lunch prepared for financial reasons– if you have access to a fridge I think it’s worth bringing one or two homemade frozen meals to work and then restocking as you eat them (soups, curries, etc). It’s like having a conventional frozen meal– just as convenient but much more healthy, especially if you pick your recipes well.

      1. Techworker*

        Also if you have fridges at work I’m a big fan of literally making it at work – eg take in some cooked meat or other protein, veg to chop and dried couscous (just needs a knife and access to a kettle). The advantages are: less Tupperware – (you can use one big one for 3 days worth for eg), less time when you’re running out the door, and ‘cooking’ at lunch is quite relaxing.

  179. anon for job vent*

    New teacher here, and oh my gosh, I’d been warned that the first year was hard but still wasn’t expecting it to be THIS hard. A big part of this is coming from my admin not liking for us to give kids consequences – just positive reinforcement, keep trying different classroom management strategies, etc. Now, while I’m totally on board with positive reinforcement and strengthening my classroom management, I have 15 year olds who are constantly interrupting me, arguing with each other about everything, name calling, and even hitting each other. And I can do not a damn thing about it. They don’t allow detentions to be given for misbehavior. The parents don’t give a crap. And while I’m doing my best to connect with these kids and have made big progress in the behavior of some of them, others are just determined to do whatever the hell they want. And why not? The school refuses to give consequences, so they can get away with it! I think this is largely coming from the fact that the school is a charter (all of the public schools wanted experience, so that’s what I’m working on now), so they are afraid of losing students/funding. But the proportion of students with serious behavior issues is so much higher than anything I ever dealt with while student teaching or long term subbing.

    1. Sharkie*

      I am so so sorry. I have no idea why the school thinks its ok for the kids to show this much disrespect to you.
      You got this!

    2. Quill*

      If you didn’t specify that you’re dealing with teenagers I’d think you worked at the same charter school as my mom.

      She’s sticking it out for now, but you wanna be really vigilant going forward that a principal who only cares about the optics or funding of a school, and not having a functional school, is probably not going to have your back. Talk to your teacher’s union, if you have one, get a sense of if your school is known as a dysfunctional workplace. Keep on the applications, and make sure that anything at all you invest into your classroom (books, lesson plans) doesn’t get reclassified as school property rather than “various secondhand books donated by my relatives for my students to use.”

      (I say this as the veteran of a 5-8 pm book haul when my mother’s principal sprung on her that she was being swapped to grade 2 and her classroom was being inventoried tomorrow to make sure that everything had a “Property of [School]” stamp on it. This included a variety of durable learning toys and several hundred second hand books that I’d previously helped my mother rehome in her classroom over the last ten years – books which the principal was certainly not invested in keeping available for the students, considering that she’d come in a few time and suggested that more ‘difficult’ books be given to the teachers of other grades…)

      1. anon for job vent*

        Very good point – I’ve spent hundreds on books, alternative seating, trays to collect work, cables for the projector, etc. Will make sure I get my name on all that stuff next week. Thanks for the tip!

        Charters tend to not have unions here, but I know this wouldn’t fly at any of the local public schools. I’ve heard they like to hire people who do well at this charter for a year or two, so that’s my goal.

    3. Ellie*

      Get into a union now. Go to the website for the American Federation of Teachers and follow the links to the branch in your state/area of state, then join. It doesn’t matter if you’re currently at a charter school – a teacher is a teacher. You need that union protection in general, but a classroom full of 15 year olds who can act with impunity puts you at high risk. In everything you do, decide how the action will affect you in the short, medium, and long term.

    4. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Can you find a bit of a loophole by calling detentions something else like a restorative conversation? Basically, I keep the kids after class until they can answer the following four questions to my satisfaction:
      1- What happened?
      2- How did it affect you?
      3- How did it affect others in the room?
      4- How can you fix it?
      To my satisfaction means no “I don’t know” or “it didn’t affect anyone”. It’s really quick (under 5 minutes) for students who are willing to take responsibility and loooong for students who don’t. Plus, restorative approaches are popular enough in my district that this tends to go over fairly well with principals etc.

  180. Quill*

    My mentor just accepted a new position and I’m suddenly really anxious about whether or not my recently renewed contract will actually last into next year.

  181. Quackeen*

    I’ve posted a couple of times about really needing to find a different job than the one I started a couple of months ago. This new job has zero flexibility or autonomy, and my boss is a red-pen-wielding corrector of everything, which makes me slightly crazy. I mean, I like her a LOT as a person, just not as a boss.

    Anyhow, I had a Skype interview on Monday afternoon and an in-person interview on Tuesday morning, both for the same role. I’m similar to many folks here in that I don’t believe in the concept of a dream job. Responsibilities change, people leave, companies get acquired…something happens and your dream isn’t so dreamy anymore. That said, if I DID believe in a dream job, this one I interviewed for would be it. The work is interesting and challenging, the office is in a great part of town, the hiring manager was just lovely and seems very smart, and the flexibility and autonomy are there (I know someone who works on an adjacent team who validated that for me).

    I REALLY WANT THIS JOB.

    Of course, I’m getting calls for interviews at places I am less excited about and hits on LinkedIn from people in other places, and silence from this one. I need some good vibes if you all have any to spare.

    1. Chaordic One*

      Good luck. The fact that you’re getting interviews bodes well, even if you don’t get this particular job.

  182. CS/writer*

    i’m a content strategist in philly interviewing for a job at one of the silicon valley company everyone wants to work for. is it worth it to leave your family for a job like that? i have never ever ever ever considered moving just for a job. but i mean… it’s that company.

    1. Sharkie*

      I just did something similar. Do it! It’s a chance of a lifetime! And if you don’t like it you can always move back :)

    2. Temperance*

      It depends if you mean “spouse and kids” or “parents and extended family”. I would not leave my partner and/or children, but I would leave my parents/extended family.

      1. CS/writer*

        I mean my parents and brother. I am married, but we’re not doing great. Good enough that he’d come with me, but I admit I am nervous about that.

        1. JessicaTate*

          For a job that seems awesome on all fronts, it’s worth doing. It will be hard – I’d want a salary robust enough that flying back for major family events is doable. And you may decide to come back east permanently after a few years, but you will have gained some really rich life and work experience. (I really could not adapt to California living, even objectively seeing all of its charms. I’m just too much of an Mid-Atlantic girl.) Adapting to a new location without your family around builds a sense of strength and resilience, I think. Even if I disliked parts of it and learned CA wasn’t for me, I did it.

          As for the relationship… I found that the stress of relocation once threw me back into the arms of a not-doing-great relationship because change was hard, and that (with all its flaws) was familiar. Maybe you could turn it into a positive: you’re a team establishing a life in a new place together, starting fresh? Maybe it will be great! On the other hand, if he goes with you and, after a while, things really go south – my very strong advice is to NOT feel guilty about ending it. He’s a big boy choosing to go with you knowing the situation just as well as you do. Don’t keep a bad situation going out of guilt because someone moved for the other person. (You didn’t ask for that part of the advice, but I feel very strongly from long, difficult experience.)

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      If moving away from your family will make you miserable, then (IMHO) no job is worth it. If moving will make you miserable but you’re sure you’ll be able to come back with some valuable experience under your belt, that’s another story.

    4. Undine*

      It can give you good experience and be a great boost to your career, but there are definite tradeoffs.

      One the one hand it will expose you to a wide range of tools, processes, really bright people and be a good name on your resume. You can potentially make good friends, have a good time, and learn a lot.

      On the other hand:
      * The cost of living here is astronomical. Where people can afford to live and where people can enjoy what the Bay Area has to offer have a small overlap. Many of the big employers do have commute buses, which can include wifi, but commutes are still long (potentially over an hour, depending on where you live) and it may depend on your boss whether you can really count that time as part of your work time.
      * If you are working through an agency rather than directly for the company you may not have consistent access to all the perks, including working from home or being allowed to take your laptop offsite.
      * Even a big name company can have pockets of bad management and high stress. It’s all going to depend on your manager and your fit with your job. Also, you are likely to be a small cog in a big machine, which means a lot of exposure to tools and so on, but may be different from where you are in your current job.

      Don’t get too dazzled by the name. I have a young relative that came out to this area because she wanted to move, and her starter job was with a large well-known name-is-a-verb company. I think she left after about a year. She has no regrets and it was a great place to get started, but it also ended up being stressful and disorganized. It was worth it because she wanted to be here and she liked her co-workers, but I think if she had been here for the job, instead of having the job so she could be here, it would have been more frustrating and difficult.

      It still could be worth it, even if you come out for a couple years and go back. A big name can give you a lot of good experience and real traction in your career. It’s like having that Ivy on your resume — by itself, it won’t get you a job, but I think it does get you in the door more often. Also, it will almost certainly be a whole different technical level than what you are used to and will up your game substantially.

      I should also add, for a young person in tech or tech-adjacent, this is an amazing hub. Coming here for tech is like going to NYCity in those old movies. If you are good at what you do, and don’t like big name co, there will be other jobs.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I lived in Calli for years and loved it. It will be a big adjustment. It really depends on how close/dependent you are on your family. I’ve known people who are fine coming to the Left Coast, and others who were miserable within 3 months. And yes, be prepared for a huge cost of living change! It’s VERY expensive compared to Philly. Make sure you get paid enough.

  183. Dr. Doll*

    begin rant/ This is a rant since there’s no solution anywhere within my power: I am at a university and it *seriously makes me furious* how higher ed treats contingent faculty and how that impacts our students.

    I just got an email from someone who is coming effing unglued because they are teaching 7 courses at 3 different campuses. They teach math. Like, the course that causes the most students to fail and end up owing a ton of money for degrees they can’t finish. How can this person possibly be doing any kind of good job racing around the highways like this?

    Meanwhile, our math department chair is tearing his beard out every term trying to find people to teach. Why the *hell* is he not allowed to hire this lecturer — who is sincere and tries hard to do a good job — full time for OUR CAMPUS?! It would make life so much better for literally *everyone* and God, would probably save money in the end, too.

    99% of all universities are like this. f*ck, just f*ck. /end rant

    1. Captain Planet (nee Snark)*

      Well, after they hired the Assistant Under-Dean for Athletic Achievement, there just wasn’t the budget for a math professor!

    2. Nita*

      Ugh. I’ve seen this way too much. I think a good chunk of the problem is that the top administration is mostly focused on creating more administration. And they need more budget for that, so the low hanging fruit is “let’s up class sizes, and squeeze out the adjuncts”

    3. Thursday Next*

      The reliance of universities on contingent labor to staff their courses is scandalous. Especially since universities churn out so many Ph.D.s that can’t possibly get tenure-track employment. It’s like an ouros-bouros of malevolent labor practices.

  184. Youth*

    I mentioned last Friday that I had a phone interview for a position that I wasn’t sure that I wanted but which a recruiter contacted me about. Thanks for all the phone interview tips! I used all of them, and the interview went really well.

    I wanted to share one part that was a particularly good experience. My research shows that the salary I earn right now is pretty high for a content writer in my area, so I expect a pay decrease when I find a new job. When the recruiter asked about salary expectations, I gave the number I would prefer (what I currently make) but also gave the lowest number I’d be willing to negotiate to based on the overall compensation package. The recruiter replied that she thought they could be competitive in that range and possibly exceed my current salary! It made me feel good about my qualifications and skills.

    Still not sure I’d want the job–it’s for a startup, and I’m looking for a job that’s less stressful, not more–but I enjoyed talking with the recruiter and am curious about the position. It does focus on an area of writing in which I’d like to gain more experience. I’ll find out on Monday if they want to talk more.

    1. whatshername*

      Okay, I know this is really random and out there and not at all related to your question (but, good luck with the job! it’s awesome your phone interview went great!) but I followed the link in your name to your blog, and I saw that it was ending, and I wondered if maybe you wanted to write occasionally for the blog I curate?
      If you’re at all interested, the link is in my name, and the email on the contact page will come straight to me. If not, no hard feelings! As a fellow awkward LDS girl writing a blog, solidarity is where it’s at, ha. :)

  185. Book Badger*

    Had two job interviews this week! I’m feeling pretty excited about my future prospects – I keep getting complimented on my resumé, so each of these interviews is good practice even if I don’t get any of the jobs I’ve interviewed for this month. Fingers crossed that I get at least one of them, though!

    1. Doug Judy*

      Good luck! I also had two different interviews this week, and one for Monday. There is one I want more than the others, but all options seem good.

  186. Julianne (also a teacher)*

    I was reading the responses to Killer Tomato’s post (earlier in this open thread) about gaving few or no strong options for references, and had a related question. In a situation with no good options for supervisor references, commenters suggested coworkers. I plan to look for a new job in about 6 months, but have no strong options for references from former supervisors, due to the length of time I’ve been at my current job and the vastly higher levels of skill and responsibility I now have. (I thought about applying for a job a few months back and asked one former supervisor from my old job for a reference, and she very respectfully declined, citing the length of time since we worked together – so not just speculating, I actually know this could be a real challenge.) So, I’m thinking that I may end up using one or more coworkers as a reference.

    What makes a coworker a good choice as a reference? Someone who saw a lot of my work? Someone who held a leadership (but non-supervisory/non-managerial) position on my workplace team? Someone with some other experience/insight/quality? Thoughts appreciated!

    1. foolofgrace*

      Just because one former supervisor declined to give you a reference stating length of time since you worked together doesn’t mean that all supervisors do. I have supervisor references from the 1990s! Is it possible there’s some other reason she didn’t want to give a reference? It sounds like maybe she was just making that reason up.

      As to coworkers, pick ones who will speak well of your work ethic, helpfulness, willingness to chip in, etc. I’m sure other commentators will have better advice. Good luck.

    2. AnonGD*

      I just accepted a new job and had a bit of a panic over references. I’ve been in my current role for five years and my workplace errs on the toxic side. Current boss falls into that category so she was definitely out as a possibility, and I don’t think my old bosses would be good references after so long. Two of my three references were current coworkers and yes, I aimed for people in leadership/very senior positions that I worked frequently with. I’m fortunate enough that I have a former grandboss that I worked with just long enough that she was willing to be a reference– I think that packed a major punch. So I wouldn’t overlook bosses above former supervisors if you had good relationships with them.

  187. Cathy*

    I’m starting my first “real” job on Monday (super exciting) and I know you’re not supposed to really take time off shortly after starting a new job, but I really want to take off the day after Thanksgiving. To be clear it’s not to go shopping but because we are spending the holiday with family that’s about a 2 hour drive away and I don’t really want to do that drive after dinner. Do you guys think that would be okay?

    1. WellRed*

      Are you sure they aren’t closed that day anyway? If they arent, I think it’s OK to ask, but know they may say no.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      This to me depends on the office. Is it a job that requires coverage? (Like a desk needs to be staffed all business hours, or something medical, or anything in retail) – makes it less likely, they probably have a seniority system. If it’s an office environment, they may not be open as noted above or they may accept that the office will be mostly empty. As a compromise, you may offer to check email remotely or come in later in the day, and this may be fine. Especially since it’s not like it’s within your first month, when I think people really tiptoe around absences.

    3. Amber Rose*

      One day is usually not a big deal. As long as you ask with the understanding that the answer may well be no, there’s no harm in asking about it.

    4. foolofgrace*

      It wouldn’t hurt to ask; lots of companies pretty much expect a skeleton crew for that day. However, as a new employee, you might be a member of that skeleton crew. The worst thing that can happen is that your manager says “No.”

    5. BRR*

      Don’t ask on your first day. You should receive some information like what holidays the company observed, often times that day is off, or if there are restrictions for when new employees can use PTO.

  188. Nacho*

    My position was recently split into two separate positions: One that works with our customers, and another that works with business partners. Everybody defaulted to the customer service position, but my boss thinks I would be a good fit for the partner service side. I’m interested, mostly because even though this is a 100% lateral promotion, it’s still a big step away from being in customer service for the rest of my life.

    The problem is that it would mean moving from an afternoon/night shift to a late morning one. I have trouble sleeping and I really enjoy not having to wake up until 9-10 every day and still having a few quick hours to relax before going to work. If I take this, it’ll mean waking up closer to 7-8 to make sure I can get everything done before I rush out to catch my bus.

    Not looking for advice or anything, just venting that a good career move is going to mean a worse shift.

  189. MsChanandlerBong*

    Would you hire someone with a felony conviction for theft if that person had no access to company resources? For example, if you were hiring an independent contractor who would never set foot on company property, would not have access to company account information, and would not be able to touch so much as a pen owned by the company.

    1. Mananana*

      Yes, if they were otherwise qualified — why not? (Caution: a bit of a soapbox rant coming.) To deny otherwise-qualified applicants a chance at employment is a way we (as a society) continue to punish people who have already fulfilled the punishment meted out by the courts. The”Ban the Box” advocates have more detailed (and eloquent) explanations of WHY more employers should be open to hiring that population – I encourage you to check them out.

      Signed, someone who has never been arrested but feels passionate about this issue.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        I agree, for exactly the same reasons. I believe the guy should be able to earn money to pay his restitution and stay on the straight and narrow. A colleague disagrees.

    2. RickTq*

      It depends on what their duties would be and the details on the crime….

      On the crime side, a one-shot impulse high-value (and so felony) theft is one set of issues around impulse control. A long-term embezzlement shows more commitment and planning (and more deceptive behavior before the theft was detected).

      The job side is more about duties, responsibilities, and opportunities to gain insider information or access to steal from the site they are reporting to each day.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        It was embezzlement. The guy’s wife had a baby, bills started piling up, and he ran up a big credit card bill. When the interest hit, he couldn’t pay, so he embezzled money from a community organization.

        He would work from home, so no opportunity to steal company property. He would have no access to any financial information, either. We’d be hiring him as a freelance writer, and all submissions are reviewed by an editorial team before delivery to the client, so his work would always be overseen. Work is submitted directly to us as the third-party content provider, so he would also have no opportunity to access client info.

        1. RickTq*

          I don’t see any issues for this scenario. As you said, no access to sensitive info and no access to re-offend. With no on-site access to anyone my concerns below are moot.

          I wish him success.

        2. Overeducated*

          I can’t understand how he could do any harm to your company as a freelance writer working offsite.

    4. RickTq*

      You say they can’t steal from you, but what about the location they are being sent to?

      Part of the risk/benefit analysis should include the impact on your company’s reputation if your contractor steals again at the work site.

  190. The other April Ludgate*

    A bit late to the party today, but finally have time to ask this. Do any of the women here, get addressed as “yes miss” when approaching your supervisor with a question? Or a colleague? It’s happened in two cases. First, it’s been happening with my direct supervisor. It pisses me off, but I don’t say anything because aside from that, he is very normal. To paint the picture, I’m an engineer in my early 30s, my supervisor is the same age, he is also an engineer. He is from a more rural part of North America, I was born and raised a big city girl. He’s been my supervisor for over 7 years and he’s done this from the very beginning. He is not a recent immigrant (in case anyone may think that this is coming from a different cultural background). And…it happened again with another guy this week, let’s call him Fergus. Fergus is about 10 years older, and we are peers, no supervisory relationship. We just met/started working together on a new project. And in the middle of a convo where I was asking him project details, Fergus started doing the same thing, the “yes miss” or “any other questions miss”. I immediately said with a laugh “oh just April will do”, but he said “oh apologies, my old fashioned British upbringing” and he just keeps doing it, so I let it go. I’ve worked with other Brits before and this never happened. He is polite otherwise. Would this piss others off too? I usually get mistaken for being in my mid 20s, could it be the youthful appearance? (not bragging, this actually happens a lot, even a doctor at a walk-in clinic did a double take recently and asked if I was who I said I was and if my birth date was correct). I don’t think I’ll be pushing back on either Fergus or my supervisor but just wanted to know if others have experienced this and do you just brush it off?

    1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      Nah, I work with a few British people (very British) and I’ve never had anything like this. I’m a woman in my early twenties. I would definitely not like being addressed like that. I think it’s worth pushing back on more in the moment if it bothers you, I know I would.

    2. SarahKay*

      I’m a Brit, and I don’t think I’ve been addressed as “yes miss” since… I dunno, ever! That sounds utterly bizarre to me.
      I hate to say it, but that sounds like someone being ‘funny’ (and by funny I mean rude and disrespectful, but ‘can’t you take a joke’) at ‘the American’s’ expense, thinking that you won’t know enough to call him on it.

      1. The other April Ludgate*

        Thanks to you both, this helps a TON, knowing that my gut reaction being pure annoyance is spot on. I am trying to be a good sport, but I may push back a bit more firmly with “pretend Brit” Fergus, which he sounds like. My boss I will tread more lightly with…I mean he may not be my boss forever either hehe.

    3. dawbs*

      you could jsut be stuck w/ someone rather formal?

      I’m working on this, but, I”m a generation older than most of my coworkers, and I was raised by strict schoolteachers, and, in front of students, I never call my colleagues by their first names. Even when the colleagues would refer to themselves as Jim and Jane, I would refer to them as Mr. Jim and Ms. Jane.
      I’m working on quashing it when they dislike it, but, it is still my off the cuff way of speaking.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I have experienced this and it never really bothered me. I am often addressed this way by certain people of color and it seems to be a term of respect, similar to “ma’am”.

      If I were a man, I suppose I’d be addressed as “Sir.”

    5. KR*

      I get Yes Ma’am often, but this is normally from people whose job it is to sell me something or perform a service for my team. Also my company is based in the American south east.

  191. Some Dude on the Internet*

    If a co-worker is leaving the company, is it bad form to ask them where they’re going next?

    I know this is generally an innocent question, but I don’t want to add insult to injury in the event that the person is leaving involuntarily or under otherwise unfavorable circumstances.

    1. Lumen*

      I think it depends. You sort of have to trust the vibe you’re getting, the mood of the person and the people around them. Sometimes I ask this way: “Do you mind if I ask what’s next for you? I understand if you’d prefer not to for any reason!” but I keep my tone and demeanor light.

      What is bad form is pushing. If someone demures (directly or via a subject change or whatever), it’s not cool to dig in your heels and say “No, really, where are you going?” I had someone do that to me as I was leaving my last job (and not wanting to share my next steps) and I was incredibly uncomfortable.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      It’s ok to ask if you really care… but if the person is hedgy or evasive don’t press.
      Sometimes, they don’t want to say because at certain workplaces managers may try to sabotage the new job or a host of other reasons.

    4. Some Dude on the Internet*

      Thanks for the answers. I agree that getting the vibe is important. If there is the slightest indication that someone was let go, then I don’t ask them.

    5. Bluebell*

      We had someone leaving this week and I saw her right after their goodbye party. Since I’m in management usually I get told if something is a layoff. I asked leaving person what they were doing and they said oh I’m going on tour with Beyoncé. When I said oh and what are you doing after that they answered “probably lying on the couch recovering.” Then they immediately pivoted to “well it’s been nice working with you.” I thought the whole thing was a sort of odd, But now I’ll rethink how I have these conversations.

    6. tab*

      I think it’s best to say something like, “I hope you’re moving on to bigger and better things.” They’ll tell you what they want you to know after that, and you won’t seem to be prying.

  192. Shay the Fae*

    I’ve been super sick lately, like 4 doctor appointments in 4 days kind of sick. Started on a new medication and a few dramatic life style changes and worrying about my follow up visit with specialists and coming down with a bit of a cold (AGAIN).

    I completely missed class Thursday on the recommendation of one of my doctors. I did go to class today, but I’m behind. And I worry about catching up. I’ve been super transparent with my teachers about what’s preventing me from being in class and getting my work done on time, but I still feel terrible about it.

    I don’t want to disappointment myself or my teachers but it feels inevitable.

    My health has always been poor, but it’s never been this bad. I’m in my last year of college, I feel like I missed out on so much. But at this point I just want to finish, and finish on time. But I worry that will be out of my control.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t know what else you could be doing other than to keep them informed of your health issues and letting them know you’re trying hard to keep up with the workload. Most professors are understanding unless your grades fall so much you’re in danger of failing, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

  193. Candy*

    Is it appropriate to ask to be part of conversations about your job that your boss is having with HER boss?

    I’m in the process of trying to argue for a promotion/raise for myself. I think I have a really good case. But my boss…loses the message a lot I think. Like, she says “I’ll take this to my boss” but then what I hear her boss heard is nothing like what I discussed with her. This has happened a few times in a couple of different contexts now.

    I’m not sure that the higher-ups are really aware of the dynamic on my team and why a promotion for me is appropriate. I’m sure that I can diplomatically and effectively advocate for myself.

    But I’m always shut out of these meetings, which in the past ended in “no, we can’t” + excuse that made no sense and through the conversation, made clear that none of my evidence (I should get a raise/promotion for x, y, and z reason) was brought up. I’m not sure how normal it would be for me to ask to be included or invited to these meetings, just to sit down with both my boss and her boss, who is the one who needs to be convinced (my boss says she is already convinced). I know it would be inappropriate for me to just go directly over my boss’s head, but…can I ask to be there when she makes her case for me?

    1. Graciosa*

      No.

      This would be a truly bizarre request, and pretty much makes it clear that you have no faith in your boss and think you can do a better job (which may well be true, but you’re really not allowed to message that in this way at work). It may also message that you don’t understand how companies work, but that could be written off as ignorance rather than disrespect (the latter would be worse).

      You need to think seriously about how long you want to keep working for a boss who is never going to advocate for you effectively. It is actually a very important part of a manager’s job, and spending too long under someone who doesn’t do this well can really hurt you (not just with respect to salary and title, but in many other ways – people who don’t handle this well tend to also be less successful in other important areas such as feedback, coaching, and mentoring). I wish I had something more hopeful to suggest.

    2. It happens*

      Not the most appropriate. Might make sense to write up a very clear one page summary of what your job is today (in practice, not what HR says it is), the team dynamics you are managing (if that is really something that requires you to be a higher level) and any other factors that would lead a reasonable person to believe that your current level is not adequate. You do not want dense paragraphs – clear, short bullet points that your boss can use are your friends. And you want to go over this document with your boss well before a meeting the next boss up. Good luck

      1. Candy*

        The last time around, I made a list of tasks that I was doing/was being asked to do, that were “above my pay grade” things. My boss asked me to prepare this list.

        But when she met with her boss to propose that I get higher compensation as a result of my doing higher level work, she didn’t show him the list or even tell him there was one.

        Sigh. She’s so incompetent!

  194. Celeberatory Throwaway*

    Oh man, it’s probably too late in the day for anyone to see this, but I am over the moon right now. I’m in school, and also working part time at a place where I did an 8 month internship last year. My job is great– they paid me well as an intern (paid internships are the norm in my area/field), bumped my salary at the 4 month mark, and made a pretty generous offer when they brought me back part time; essentially, my new wage was somewhere between what I was making as an intern and what a new grad would be making. Yesterday, 2 weeks in, they told me that they decided it was silly to pay me less than they would pay an entry level person when they feel like my work is above entry level, so they gave me a very significant raise!! I’m thrilled that they’re happy with my work, of course, and it’s also just a big financial relief. I was making enough to cover my rent and essential living expenses, but now I have lots of wiggle room in my budget to do fun stuff and maybe pay some of tuition/school costs out of my salary instead of out of my savings.

    I’m so glad that I found AAM as a teen. I’ve been reading since I was 16, commenting on and off since I was 17, and 5 years of reading this site daily has had a huge impact on how I approach the workplace. Neither of my parents work in office settings, so I really would have had no idea what I was doing with myself without the advice and guidance I’ve found here!

  195. Rye-Ann*

    More or less just ranting but I guess if anyone is still reading after 1200+ comments, I am open to advice too.

    Basically, my company has this device. It’s primarily intended to be used used for projects run by Department A, but when we first bought the instrument, it was determined that they did not have the resources to run the device. Additionally, once the projects in question were up and running, the plan was for my department to be the ones running the device. So it went to my department, with me being the person responsible for running it. Even though frankly I didn’t really have time either but somehow we kinda made it work. Still not sure how we did that, although my company did hire Person A in Department B, with the idea that this would be a primary part of their job, so that did help. Then, Department A stopped using it for awhile, since the scope of the relevant projects shifted and caused the device to not be necessary.

    Due to various reasons we had to deactivate the device for awhile. At that point no one needed us to use it so it wasn’t a big deal. We are at the point where now we can reactivate the device, but due to a combination of factors (including the fact that someone on my team just left) I’ve had trouble finding the time to actually do so. The same goes for Person A. Even though they were originally hired for the device, there wasn’t enough work from it to justify it being their whole job, so they got trained on other things which happen to be much more urgent than the device.

    Today I got an e-mail indicating that Department A *at a different site* is planning on getting us to run the device for them for one of their projects in the near future. The thought of finding time in my increasingly-busy schedule to take on this project is overwhelming. It’s a different type of work than my department normally does (at least, to the degree we’ve been asked to do here, we do help Department A with their projects from time to time). This makes it a) hard to fit into my schedule and b) arguably something that really shouldn’t be my job. I’m not confident that I’ll be allowed to step away to the degree I’d like, but I’m not looking forward to eventually being blamed because even if I manage to squeeze this project into my schedule, I definitely won’t have time to do it to the standard it should be. And I’m not interested in doing sub-par work. Or frankly…doing this type of work at all. Maybe I’d feel differently about the whole situation if I actually *liked* this project. So on top of that I feel guilty about not liking the project, even though I know there are plenty of people who would *love* to be in this position (it’s arguably something that could be good for my career). *Sigh*

    Anyway, for anyone who read this thanks for listening. :)

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I just wanted to let you know that I read and in my mind, the ‘device’ is a Stargate.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        I just reread the whole thing picturing the Stargate characters in petty Office Space-style squabbles.

    2. Techworker*

      If I get what I perceive as an unreasonable request for another team, the first thing I do is tell my manager – maybe it doesn’t work like this at all companies, but planning work and making sure projects get finished is literally what they’re paid for. Can you raise your concerns that this is extra work you don’t have time for and you think you don’t have enough time to do it well? Your manager may be able to push back on the other team.

      2. Rye-Ann*

        Yes, I actually do plan to try to have this conversation with my team lead on Monday. Thank you for the reminder that it is not unreasonable for me to try to take this off my plate. I am a little worried that it won’t be successful, but that’s no reason not to try, right? :)

        I guess another part of what is stressing me out is that from the beginning, people have worked hard to peg me as THE go-to person for this device. It makes it feel like my responsibility, and therefore if I try to not do that then I’m not doing my job. Also, working with this device is very different from working with the sorts of devices that my company normally uses; Person A and I have backgrounds that are better equipped to work on it than anyone in Department A, at least in many ways.

        So because I feel responsibility for it, I feel like I need to make sure that the work gets done the way it should be, which may not happen if Department A takes over. But then again, if I don’t have time to do the work, then I guess the work isn’t getting done in that case either. So…yeah.

  196. Sazzle*

    A recent grad (female) has just joined my (very male dominated) office. She seems to be settling in ok-ish but is having trouble with some fairly basic stuff and requiring multiple explanations. We expect to train people from scratch and it’s fine for people to take varying amounts of time to get up to speed… but… she doesn’t really seem to be aware that she’s even behind/struggling. Absolutely could be that there’s something going on outside of work that’s causing her to be distracted, but when I chatted to her (at the request of my mgr) she insists repeatedly that ‘everything’s fine’ (in a slightly too fast panicked tone that makes it sound like maybe it’s not). In hindsight I probably could/should have been more explicit that it looks to *us* like she’s struggling, but I was trying to avoid being like ‘we’ve been talking about your work and it’s not great’ because we try quite hard not to put too much pressure on the first few weeks. Any ideas for how to word this/suggestions on how to help?

    (I think part of why this is disconcerting is that most people in that position would be stressed about being behind – which is not necessarily good either – whereas she doesn’t seem aware there’s even a problem).

    1. PICNIC*

      How is she meant to know she’s behind if you are avoiding telling her that her work isn’t where it needs to be? Someone needs to be setting expectations and managing her! It’s not reasonable to expect her to intuitively get these things, and it sounds like in your effort to not pressure her you’ve gone way too far the other way.

      Just be honest, clear and direct with her.

      1. Sazzle*

        In my/our defence they have all been told clearly/repeatedly ‘by x point we expect you to have finished y bit of the training’, and there’s lots of them doing the same training so from previous experience most people are hyper-aware of how they are doing compared to the rest of the room. I reread my previous question – I actually think it’s very unlikely she doesn’t know she’s behind but she seems to either not want to admit she’s struggling or not care. As I explained probably badly – the worry isn’t even about the fact she’s behind, it’s that she seems distracted and my manager is concerned about her settling in. But I have already passed back to him that if the issue persists then he/we need to be more direct because ‘letting her know she can talk about it if she’s having problems’ had no effect whatsoever.

        (I’m also not sure how someone would be able to usefully respond to the criticism of ‘you seem quite slow to understand things’ – but presumably there are more useful ways of phrasing that)

    2. AeroEngineer*

      Being a recent female grad in a very male dominated office, if you didn’t even bother to tell me to my face that there were problems with my work, and then I found out later that there were problems, I would be really disappointed, discouraged, embarrassed and a whole other host of negative feelings. The first few weeks are supposed to be the time where she should be getting taught the ropes, so if things aren’t going well now, now is the time to speak up. If you don’t have the ‘we’ve been talking about your work and it’s not great’ talk, bad habits will form.

      Be direct, and straightforward, but don’t just criticize, perhaps you can offer solutions. Perhaps something is going on in her personal life, but don’t just assume that. It shouldn’t matter that she is a female recent grad in a dominantly male office, she is a recent grad and this is probably her first job, so she probably just doesn’t know what to look for in feedback.

      I had an internship where I had no idea that I was behind, as no one ever gave me solid guidelines and feedback in the beginning, until a scheduled feedback meeting. I was absolutely mortified when I found out, and my only response was “Why didn’t you tell me sooner?!” and then worked my ass off and finished my internship on a really solid note.

      1. Sazzle*

        Thanks this is useful. As I explained to a commenter above – most people in this situation are hyper-aware of where they are compared to the rest of the room as there’s loads of them doing the same thing, plus they have been given expected deadlines (by x date, y section should be complete). So previous experience of running the training has been very much assuring people that their speed or lack of at this point doesn’t necessarily correlate with how good they’ll be at the job (it doesn’t, it’s more important they understand everything properly), which I guess is why we’re coming at it from that angle.

    3. a_coder*

      I wonder if there is something distracting her *at* work, rather than outside of work. Like… she’s being harassed. I had a hard time settling in at my first tech internship because right off the bat, my cubicle mate started asking pointed questions about how I must have had connections at the company in order to have gotten my job.

      But other than that possibility… I guess I don’t really get why this is a different situation because of the femaleness? I don’t think you should try to make excuses for her or keep from hurting her feelings. If I were her and found out I was being treated as though I were fragile like that, it would feel pretty bad. I would feel like you never really believed in me from the start – not saying that you don’t believe in her! But that’s how it might come across to her.

      Anyway, I don’t know if that helps, but that’s my two cents.

      1. Sazzle*

        Right – As far as I know it’s nothing like that, but I think that’s exactly the sort of thing my manager would want to know about and immediately nip in the bud.

        Her femaleness is only of relevance because tbh joining a company that’s 95% white men and you don’t fit into that demographic *can* be isolating. (And one of the reasons I was asked to speak to her was incase she wasn’t comfortable talking to a manager (exclusively male) about something).

        The wanting to be nice and ensure people aren’t getting down about the training going slowly is completely irrelevant to gender, the new men get treated like that too. (And if a man was in the same situation of being a bit behind/a bit distracted the aim would also definitely be to find out what was going on rather than criticise in their 2nd week of work – which I can understand it being seen as unclear, but it is general company policy to very much start out on the supportive front until people find their feet).

  197. Hannah*

    I’m probably going to apply, but I want some perspective:

    I’m in a situation where I’ve really outgrown my job. The chance of upward growth at my job is limited.

    I’ve known for a while that I’ll have to leave this job, and I want to take the opportunity to move to a different city.

    There is a job opening in the city I want to move to at the most logical company for me to work for in that city. It’s basically the same position I have now. Actually, it’s exactly the same position I have now. Which, great? I mean, I bet they’d love to have someone who has done literally that exact same job for years at another similar company. On the other hand, I’m worried about the fact that while it looks like a lateral move, it feels like a step down, because really I should have moved up by now, and in reality have moved up, I just haven’t gotten the title change yet.

    On the other hand (I guess I have three hands!) it is not that often that jobs in my exact niche in my exact field open up at the exact company I’d want to work at, so I feel like I should just apply for it and see what comes.

    Ugh, I just feel like I’ve worked hard for almost a decade and because of the extreme bureaucracy and limited opportunities for upward mobility in my niche in my field, I have nothing to show for it and am going to be starting at the bottom again.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Apply! I was in a similar position 6 years ago. I left a job with no promotion track for a similar position but in a different industry. On paper it was a lateral move (even a step down, really) but I had been with my organization for 12 years I wanted a change. Since then I’ve gotten two promotions and really expanded my responsibilities. It’S understandable you want a change and more opportunity. Good luck!

    2. TheTallestOneEver*

      Do you know if the position in the new company has the same limits in advancement? Because if you still won’t have the chance to grow professionally, it may not really be a lateral.

  198. Raia*

    I am 6 months into my new job (thank you Alison and commenters!) but I am running into a lot of awkward moments when I am meeting with my manager. Basically because I buy too much into power dynamics and I dont know how to stop/redirect. I will ask a question, and then automatically apologize for asking. I will get shaky and sweaty in individual meetings and feel the need to state that I know that I’m shaking but I want to hear whatever feedback she has. This rarely happened with my old manager – didnt like him/care much about his feedback. How do I redirect when I can feel myself going towards the Power Dynamics Place of Awkward?

  199. Jake Berenson*

    Since it’s right around the Jewish high holy days I thought I’d ask about how I should have handled a situation I dealt with at my last job last year.

    I was raised Jewish but I don’t observe any religion or identify as Jewish for deeply personal reasons. When I say deeply personal; I mean that I won’t ever bring it up at work, following the general rule of not discussing politics or religion in the workplace.

    But, my name is fairly Jewish so I occasionally get asked. If it’s not a friend asking, I say “no,” because again, I don’t consider myself Jewish and I don’t want to discuss it.

    At my last job, one of the other managers in my department (had direct reports but I reported to someone else) was Jewish and kept asking me if I am too. I’d say “no, I’m not” and his response would be something like “oh, but your name is very Jewish, isn’t it?” He also emailed me inviting me to go to services with him around the Jewish holidays.

    I’ve had people try to bring me back to the faith in the past, and since it’s always made me uncomfortable, I’ve always ignored it the best I could. But when the person trying is someone in management at your job, I’d imagine it needs a different approach. If I could’ve done it over, I would’ve thanked him for trying to include me and deflected by saying his synagogue was way too long of a trip to me. Which is true; it would’ve been at least an hour driving or two and a half hours on public transportation.

    What would you have done?

  200. Raya*

    I have an amazing team at work. There was an opportunity for promotion and next week I have to tell the 4 applicants what the results were. I’m quite comfortable with delivering the news to the successful candidate. Anyone have a simple script for telling the others they were not the successful candidate? All candidates would have done a great job, but only one can be promoted. The others will be given lots of opportunities in the next year for further professional development.

    1. Mananana*

      I think your last two sentences are perfect. “Team, any one of you would have done a great job, but only one can be promoted, so please join me in congratulating Antigone. Please know there will be lots of opportunities in the next year for further professional development.”

      1. OtterB*

        Let them know individually before the general announcement is made, of course. The only other thing I would suggest is to schedule a follow-up meeting for a week or two later (to give them time to process the news) to discuss professional development specifics for each individual.

  201. Notapirate*

    How much sway should knowing a toxic person would be a coworker at potential new job impact my decision?

    1. Snickerdoodle*

      It depends on how closely you would work with them, I think (all day every day? could you work from home at least part of the time to escape?), and how many perks offset it. Some people can work around a toxic person for good pay, a short commute, etc. I am not one of them and would personally nope the hell out because life’s too short for that crap.

  202. narwhale of a tale*

    I should have asked this question when I started my corporate marketing position 7 months ago, but… how do I succeed in a corporate environment? I am an extrovert and, in attempts to bond/build relationships with my new coworkers, I overshared about my struggles. I am somewhat mortified by how much my mouth flaps when I am overwhelmed and want to fix things ASAP.

    1. Mananana*

      I don’t know that there’s a fast fix for oversharing. IMO, the only thing to do now is train yourself to take a few seconds before speaking when you’re tempted to “bond.” Because trying to fix this has the very real potential of just making it worse, ie, you end up oversharing WHY you overshare.

    2. ..Kat..*

      What works for me is to pause and take a deep breath before I say anything. And as I take that deep breath, I ask myself, do I really want to talk about this with my coworkers? Sometimes I need to take several deep breaths before I open my mouth. But the answer is almost always “keep breathing, keep your mouth shut.”

  203. Snickerdoodle*

    I have a good update!

    I’ve posted a couple of times about the creepy guy on vanpool: He started off with a few overly friendly invitations to lunch or the book fair, which I politely declined because I thought it was weird since I’d only just met him. He sent me a few more emails about innocuous topics unrelated to work subjects (we work for the same company but in unrelated departments), and I didn’t reply to any of them, though I did archive them. He visited my cube unannounced and uninvited a couple of times, which creeped me out thoroughly since I never told him where I sit. He also complained about his wife, stared at my legs, tried to invite himself to one of my hockey games, and asked which neighborhood pool I went to because he wanted to check it out (he lives MILES away). I stopped responding to anything he said at all and started wearing earbuds on vanpool, though that didn’t stop me from hearing the gross comments he made on various sexual assault cases in the media, all of which were dismissive of the victims. Worse still, another young-ish woman started riding our vanpool, and he started the same pattern of behavior with her he had with me (asking her where she liked to eat lunch, etc.).

    I documented EVERYTHING on a spreadsheet and told my supervisors, who were horrified, though resolution took a week or so because we technically have different employers (as I am a contractor). I requested legal/HR to give me a script of exactly what to say to the guy, but I noted that I was certain it wouldn’t do any good since some of what he said that caused me to complain was that he didn’t think a woman saying no was a valid answer, so I told my supervisors that I would like anything I said to also come from a supervisor.

    Well, today the penny dropped. :D I got a call this afternoon from my supervisor telling me that the creepy guy’s supervisor had lowered the boom, and he was NOT to talk to me anymore. I never had to say or write a word to him. I was fairly anxious waiting for vanpool this afternoon, but when I got outside, he wasn’t there. He waited inside until the van was pulling up and I was already on it, and then he exited the building at the last second and boarded the van through the back door, claiming he’d been caught up with something (lol).

    Experience tells me that this guy is absolutely not done and will resort to more subtle creepiness, passive aggression, general whining, etc., but he knows he’s being watched and that I will not tolerate his crap. Yay!

    2. ..Kat..*

      I am sorry that you are having to deal with this. But I think that if your superiors were really taking this seriously that he would no longer be in your vanpool. Keep documenting. This isn’t over.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        I fully expect that he will resort to more subtle creeping, whining, passive aggression, etc. My supervisors also suspect something more will happen. One did ask how he could be removed from vanpool, but I am not sure how to go about it. I will speak to my supervisors about contacting the rental company whose van it is and ask. That said, the guy has mentioned a few job postings at other locations within the same company, so with any luck, he’ll quit and move anyway.

    3. valentine*

      Report his behavior with the new woman, even if she doesn’t work with you/r department, so they know he’s a serial stalker.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        I plan to; the difficult part is doing so discreetly and making sure he actually does anything. He may leave her alone since he saw that I reported everything, which included him trying to find out her lunch plans.

    4. Snickerdoodle*

      I have another update!

      I just received the monthly vanpool fare email, and in it, it said the inappropriate guy is having to drop out. I was hopeful that would happen but wasn’t going to push as long as he left me alone. That must have been quite a talking to he received Friday!

  204. PhyllisB*

    I just want to say I thank everyone for their comments on my post about my son. I promise you we are not helicopter parents but he seems stuck (and my husband is no help!!) I just want suggestions that will help him decide his next step. I plan to share what all of you have shared, and then let him figure out what he wants to do next. If anyone else has any ideas, please chime in

  205. Overeducated*

    I forgot to mention…I got approved to telework once a week!!! I figured it might be good for my sanity to have a change of environment and no commute, especially when spouse starts his further away new job and life gets more hectic. So that’s something positive at least.

    Any tips on staying motivated? This week I started early, and was very productive before lunch, but lost a bit of steam in the afternoon.

  206. ConferenceCalls*

    This is a random problem, but I type too loudly when on conference calls. I have several calls that I must lead, but also take notes. My immediate coworkers laugh because they always know who is typing but others Complain the typing is too loud. When that happens I switch to writing notes, but that screws up my note taking. Part of the problem is my work phone has a terrible microphone. If I move it further away no one can hear what I’m saying. Unfortunately the best spot is next to the keyboard. I do work from home so getting a different phone is an option, although people do still comment on the typing when I am using a cellphone instead of desk phone. Any advice?

    1. dawbs*

      Is there a chance you’re using a mechanical keyboard (instead of a membrane keyboard)? there’s a distinct difference between types of keyboards and how loud they sound.
      linky: https://www.soundproofingtips.com/best-quiet-keyboards-for-office/

      It’s amazing how loud it can be–I learned on typewriters (yes, I”m old), and I”m shockingly loud, even with quiet keyboards. If I need to be quiet, I plug a different keyboard into my laptop.

    4. AnonGD*

      This is an out-there solution but maybe you can record the calls if you’re missing too much information when you hand write notes? That way you can go back and fill in missing information.

      It is true that keyboards do have different “volumes” so to speak. But if you’re going to try something new, tech-wise I’d probably try a headset or separate microphone that allows you to bring it to your face. I don’t think a new keyboard or new phone is going to fix the issue, especially if the phone is really RIGHT next to the keyboard.

    5. TheTallestOneEver*

      Get a headset. It will have a better mic than the speaker on your phone, and you may be able to find one that’s compatible with both your work phone and your cell phone.

    6. Anono-me*

      If you touch type, here is a lower cost and low tech option. Put a breakfast in bed tray over the keyboard and drape a big thick towel over it, so that 100% of the sides are covered. Now when you type in the little towel fort you made your keyboard, the sound will be muffled.

    8. ArtK*

      Wow… someone with the same problem that I have! First, I use the mute button extensively. I do in any case, because I want everyone else on the call to do the same — background noise when I’m trying to talk is a killer. Second, I’ve repositioned my microphone so that it isn’t as close to the keyboard and that seems to help. Finally, I avoid typing during a call.
      And yes, I do use a mechanical keyboard. I’m very old school and hate the feel of membrane keyboards.

      1. Rick Tq*

        Use the Mute button on your phone.
        I have the same problem with both headsets I use. I have a Plantronics unit for my land-line and a Jabra USB headset for VOIP calls and both can pick up my typing.

  207. Sunny Day Saturday*

    I’ve been searching for a way to ask this so please bare with me:

    I’m currently looking to get out of management but I’m unsure how much to ask for going back to an hourly position.

    I was promoted from within starting out as hourly to salary and at that time I was making what would be considered above average for the area and industry I work in. After I was promoted my salary jumped about $40k a year and now that I want to transition out of management and go back to an hourly position I’m unsure what I should ask for? I don’t want to price myself out of a job but I also don’t want to short change myself either.

  208. ..Kat..*

    Oregon Health and Science University (OHSU), one of the larger employers in Oregon, has announced to their employees that they can have their pronouns printed on their badge (for example, she/her, they/them, etc). All an employee has to do is turn in their old badge and specify what pronouns they want printed on their badge. And, this does not cost the employee anything (normally badge replacement costs the employee $10).

    We have talked a lot about gender respect on this blog. Thought AAM people would like to know.

  209. AlligatorSky*

    Hey all, it’s been a while since I last commented.

    Happy news is that my new redecorated room is almost finished, and has a nice shiny lock on my door. I love my room so much.

    Sad news is that a family member whom I was very close to had been seriously ill the past few months, and unfortunately passed away last week. It was his funeral on Wednesday and god, seeing his coffin made me lose it, and I cried so much.

    I still can’t believe he’s gone. I miss him so much :(

      1. AlligatorSky*

        Thank you <3 It's painful that he's not here anymore, but he's in a better place now, and free of his pain. Knowing that helps me a little.

  210. Bowserkitty*

    FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK I thought this was the weekend free for all, please disregard and/or delete my comment oh my goodness I am so sorry

  211. the gold digger*

    You guys! Research to validate what I tell young women – that you should not bake goodies for the office or volunteer to organize, set up, or clean up after office events.

    My favorite line – when they tested to see if women actually just like doing menial tasks more than men do – reminds me of what a friend’s husband said once after announcing to his wife that the baby’s diaper had exploded and there was poop on the floor. She asked him why he hadn’t cleaned it up and he told her it was because she was so much better at it than he was.

    Because the volunteer task in this experiment was to click a button on a computer screen, we could rule out the possibility that women volunteered more because they were better at the task or enjoyed it more than men.

    https://hbr.org/2018/07/why-women-volunteer-for-tasks-that-dont-lead-to-promotions

  212. misslucy21*

    I’m pulling together my resume and I’ve read through all the great advice here and in the How to Get a Job book, so I get that I want to focus my experience section on things that are relevant for the job I’m applying for. But if that involves just one or perhaps two of my previous jobs, is it a good idea to have a quick listing of the rest of my employment history with dates, but no other details? My career trajectory has been a little…varied, so it’s not like my job history really shows a progression. But if I only put my current position on the resume, it looks like I’ve only been working for five years, as opposed to more like 15+. So I’m not sure how to handle that.

  213. Leota*

    Has anyone here actually gotten a job from submitting their resume to a company for general consideration? I’ve been seeing that as an option while applying for jobs lately and I’m just curious about what kind of success people might have had with it.

    1. Luisa*

      Sort of. I’m a teacher, and some of the school districts in my area have “general” applicant pools to collect resumes that are then made available to principals, in addition to posting specific vacancies. I got two interviews that way in one district (one of which led to the job I have now), and three interviews in another district (one of which led to a job offer, but I’d already accepted my current job by then). The online application systems for a lot of local districts also give one the option of clicking a box to be considered for other suitable jobs in the district, or to select from a menu what other kinds of jobs one would be willing to consider (ex. if I applied for a specific job teaching 4th grade, I could also indicate interest in jobs in grades 3-5).

  214. kc89*

    anyone have any advice for an interview for the role of office manager?

    I know that’s quite vague- the position like assistant/receptionist work, ordering supplies, booking conference rooms, keeping the kitchen clean and stocked, answering the front desk phone, etc.

    1. WG*

      I’d recommend reading through Alison’s interviewing guide, if you haven’t already. I used that prior to some recent interviews and found the advice really helpful. Particularly reviewing the job description and preparing examples of how you meet each job responsibility and qualification.

      1. kc89*

        Thanks!

        I did in fact read her interview guide and I agree it’s quite helpful.

        I typed out all of the questions the guide says are likely to come up and I’ve typed out my responses. I’m going to practice them out loud tonight to see how they sound verbally.

    2. Kat in VA*

      I’m an EA, but basically an OM job is going to be heavy on the scheduling and organizational aspects. Things like how efficient you are with revolving tasks (staying on top of supplies), dealing with conflicting schedules, working with difficult personalities, and so forth. A lot of OM jobs require some surprisingly heavy lifting with programs like Word and Excel, as well.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I realized that wasn’t really helpful at all. Clearly the coffee I’m drinking isn’t doing its usual job. A lot of the crossover questions for EA and OM are similar – most of mine centered around typical STAR situations (“Tell me about a time when…”) and how I stay organized and deal with difficult personalities. OMs have a lot wider contact with the office at large than EAs do but the personalities question might come up as well, since a whole lot of people will be coming up to you and asking for coffee resupply/FedEx shipments/I NEED THAT CONFERENCE ROOM WHADDYA MEAN IT’S BOOKED/”Where’s my package?”/”Did the guy call yet?” type requests.

  215. WG*

    I couldn’t post yesterday, as it was an extremely emotional day for me – my last day with the employer I’ve been with for 3 decades. I’m really going to miss the incredible colleagues I’ve had there over the years. It’s the right time for me to move on, but it’s a scary proposition to switch to a whole new organization and start from scratch building my professional reputation.

    Thanks to Alison and the whole AAM community for the tips I picked up here for my job search. I’ve also been paying attention to threads about starting new jobs and advice about being the newbie. I’m sure those comments and experiences will be beneficial as I settle into a new organization and new role.

    1. TheTallestOneEver*

      Congratulations! I’m heading in a similar direction – trying to leave after 17 years with the same employer. Even though I haven’t found anything yet, just the idea that I’m considering this move gets me a little anxious and emotional. Good luck!

  216. Aye Nonny Nonny*

    Any tips for when your company is restructuring and your specialist role gets taken any and distributed to the team? I supported a team that’s been reduced by 1/4 in just the past year with no one replaced due to pending layoffs. Now I’m going to be replacing the person who just gave notice in a generalist role while training colleagues to each take on part of my old job. It means learning new skills which is great, but what I was necessary and I hate no longer being the go-to expert. That said, it makes it easier to leave since I wouldn’t be wrecking the whole department.

  217. jessejane*

    Help!
    I’ve been lurking here for awhile and now need all of your expertise. I have a job interview on Monday- I haven’t been on one in a very long time! It’s through a university, so I filled out their online app. to apply. No resume or cover letter was uploaded and no references were required at that stage. Do I bring a resume and reference list to the interview on Monday?
    Appreciate any advice you may have!

  218. Dancer*

    Trying to type this before work, so I apologize for typos/lack of detail.
    I have been working as a grocery night stocker for the past 3 years and have been doing the same aisle for two of those. We are “scored” according to how many cases we stock per hour, but they have changed the standard several times. When I first started, each aisle had its own expected score, but the store average was supposed to be 38+. Then they changed it to everyone should get 38+, but they said they were happy with me making mid-thirties (my aisle is known to be one of the hardest). Now, they’ve changed things again and if I don’t finish in time to make a 38 or higher, I get sent home and the supervisor finishes the job (my aisle is one of the heaviest and everyone else is usually done before me).

    To make things worse, I have multiple mental health issues (mainly depression and anxiety, but also tics with swearing) that I can’t keep from affecting me at work. It hasn’t been much of a problem because this job is meant for disabled people, and I am doing great at everything else, but now they are pressuring me more than ever to speed up and I just can’t.

    I would like to get an office job but I’m afraid that my mental health will get me fired before my probation is over. I am taking 1 or 2 college classes at a time, with a 4.0 so far, so I’m definitely functional, it’s just my anxiety attacks and depressive episodes can really wipe me out when they happen. So, my questions are:
    1: How do I know if a desk job will be able to accommodate my disabilities without revealing those disabilities during an interview?
    2: Are there any jobs you could recommend I look for, specifically?
    3: Is it reasonable for me to ask my employer to accommodate my disabilities by reducing my required score, when the score is an essential job function, but they’ve adjusted it in the past?

    1. valentine*

      1: What accommodations do you need and are there tasks you think you could do for 8 consecutive hours with some short breaks early/late and a 30- or 60-minute break in the middle?2: For being wiped out, what springs to mind is a flexible schedule or even a divided shift with a long (nap!) break. Data entry, database work, something heavy on filing/archiving, where there’s no pressure like admin or phone-answering work. Online/text customer service. Temping might allow you to see an array of settings.3: Yes. You can say you can do x alone or y with help. It’s not you, though. The system is designed for failure for whoever has the heaviest or most fragile items. There is no business need for massive bags of pet food to be stocked as deep as cereal boxes. It’s also punitive. Why send you home (they don’t want to pay you?) instead of having the supervisor jump in to help you finish? They should know by now when you’re not going to get to y. This is really ridiculous. I hope you don’t feel bad about not meeting the metric.

      1. Dancer*

        Thanks for answering, Valentine.

        1. My anxiety attacks are my biggest concern. During one, I cry uncontrollably, hyperventilate, and either don’t think of anything at all or think of everything bad that has ever happened to me. Usually, it gets triggered, builds to a peak, then abruptly stops, then after a couple minutes, starts again. The cycle can go on for 15-30 minutes to several hours. Afterwards, I feel the way you do when you spend all day swimming – that soreness/tightness in your chest and shoulders and general drained feeling. Conflict and loud noises are my main triggers. I can stock through it, but I doubt I can do anything requiring concentration. So, accommodations would probably be the ability to go home early or clock out for a while and come back.

        My depression affects me more subtly. I have trouble focusing, switching tasks, remembering the order of things, remembering things in general, and just general apathy. For that, the accommodations would probably be to follow a routine, with not much changing from day to day.

        I don’t know what tasks I can do for 8 hours. To be honest, that sounds like such a long time (I normally work 3-5 hours). I would like to start part-time if I can. I think it’s best for me to be in an office – it’s hard enough for me to do things I enjoy, much less work, at home.

        2. I actually like the sound of doing that kind of stuff. I like making lists and I’m very organized. Inefficiency bugs me in a way. However, I don’t know how to use Excel and have only a casual familiarity with Word. I’ve been watching some tutorials on youtube, but I’m worried I won’t be good enough for a job.

        The only temp agency around here places people in a car factory. No desk jobs.

        3. Believe me, I’ve talked to them about how broken the system is. The way it works is the more cases we have, the more time we have to stock. But since we have things we’re required to do besides stocking (facing, rotating, cleaning, etc.), we can only make our score with a certain minimum amount of cases. The metrics are based on an old store. The new store is much bigger and, for whatever reason, the trucks are smaller. I’m sure 38 was easy back then, but it’s almost impossible now. Since we get paid by the hour, they accuse us of “milking it” whenever we take too long. That’s why they send me home – they want to punish me and prevent me from taking “extra” hours.

        The main issue is we’ve gotten a new supervisor. The last two, who respected me as an employee and let me do my thing, were fired. This new supervisor seems to be under orders to whip us into shape. There are a lot of threats of “if you can’t do the job, we’ll find someone who can!” Yeah, most new hires don’t last 3 months. Less than 5 of us have been here more than 2 years.

        I actually used to be able to keep up pretty well, but my depression has gotten a lot worse in the past 6 months. I’ve been neglecting my rotation, and now it’s caught up with me and I’m having to spend extra time on it or risk getting suspended for having expired products on the aisle. I’m known for being the best rotater in the store, but I’ve fallen behind on the less urgent items (those that only need to be checked 1-2x/year). I’ve kept up with those that have to be checked every month.

        I manage by doing as much rotation as I can on my good days – I’m actually pretty fast when I feel good. My routine is to stock as quickly as I can, calculate how much time I have left to make my score, and then spend the remainder rotating. If I have a really good day, I can get 1/4-1/3 of my whole month’s rotation done in one night. But the supervisors come around to check on our progress, so if I look like I’m going to be done in 15 minutes, they want me out of there even if I have an hour left. To them, it looks like I’m using rotation as an excuse to waste time. I’ve asked them to let me rotate, and they say no. So, I get a really good score that night (which to them is proof that I’ve been faking being slow all along). And then I’ll come back the next night, have a bad day, and they’ll think I’m being slow on purpose to make up for the lost hours. Of course, not rotating on a good day means having to rotate on an okay/bad day, and then I get a very low score… Damned if I do, damned if I don’t.

        This job was not a good fit for me from the beginning. But I’ve grown from it and feel like it’s time to move on. The fear that a new job won’t work out is what’s really holding me back. (And the fact that my mind goes completely blank whenever I try to work on my resume or cover letter.) I’m trying to make this job work until I can get into a new one, but I am afraid that if they accommodate me, I’ll lose the motivation to apply to new jobs, but working is so draining, it’s hard to work on applications… I just want the stress to end.

        1. Jaid_Diah*

          I’d go to HR and complain that you’re being targeted because of your disability. It sounds like the only thing that really changed is the new supervisor and his expectations.
          I wish you well, whatever happens.

    2. LGC*

      So – if you read LW4 from earlier on Friday, he actually had some issues with disability himself, and several commenters suggested that he go through vocational rehab. If you’re not doing the same already (although it sounds like you might be!), I’d suggest that.

      Just based off of what you wrote here:

      1: Ask what the position entails! Interviews are a two-way street – granted, AAM is oriented towards white-collar jobs, but even at more entry-level positions, it’s worth asking about what a typical day looks like.
      2: The only thing I can think of is that you might have difficulty with customer-facing positions (like a call center or a receptionist), since you mentioned having a swearing tic. But also, I’m only going off of this comment. I don’t know you – you know yourself much better! If the swearing comes on rarely, go for it!
      3: Yes, it’s worth a shot in my opinion. First of all, I don’t think it’s “essential” that you score above 38 – that’s a somewhat arbitrary number that your company has been flexible on in the past. (You can obviously do the job duties, such as lifting.) Further, you’re not far off from the goal (about 5-15% off, since you make mid thirties), and they’ve also said that they’ve been cool with your numbers being lower before because you work on a difficult aisle.
      3a: And also, I hate your corporate/whoever decided that if you don’t finish in time (I’m guessing by the end of you schedule?) you’ll get sent home and the supervisor will finish up. That just sounds inefficient and honestly sounds like it’ll be more expensive (since the supervisor gets paid more than you do, I’m guessing). It’s a task that can be split up – what would be better is if you were off pace then you’d get assistance (and have it noted).

      Good luck – and I’m hoping you get the job you want!

      1. LGC*

        …so I read your response to valentine and oof. You probably should consider just leaving, just because it doesn’t sound like that would work with your current supervisor. (Retail, man.) Your new supervisor (or more likely, management) is being penny wise and pound foolish.

        I’d also want to be honest: you might be better off staying with part time positions, based on what you said. And I’d certainly look at larger employers for FMLA eligibility (if you’re in the US). And look at larger teams as well, since they might be able to handle you leaving a little bit early. (And finally, how often do you get panic attacks? That certainly affects things – once or twice a year at work is entirely different from once or twice a week.)

      2. ronda*

        the supervisors are often on salary while the workers are hourly employees, so keeping them out of getting overtime is a thing.
        They are usually paying the supervisor the same, regardless of hours worked.
        So it is mostly about trying to keep the payroll cost down and not just being jerks.

        1. can you ask to be switched to an aisle that you think you can reliably finish in the time limit?
        2. can you talk to them about needing an accommodation for your disability? Not sure who the right people to talk with about this is.
        3. I am assuming they have other stores….. do they generally have the same issue with this particular type of aisle? Do they have any approaches that you could use that would make it able to be done.
        4. even if you are not able to do it, if they are having trouble keeping people, they may not be planning to get rid of you. If you think that is true that might help with reducing your stress if losing the job is part of your stress.

  219. Bipolar Beanpole*

    I am a graphic designer reformatting my resume, and I had a question I would greatly appreciate some perspective on.

    I have had a book of my work published by a famous artist, and other projects of mine that have appeared in publications that are household names in my country. I reference this in the body of my resume in the context of my work and freelance experience.

    I would like to put tangible proof though, both to show it’s actually my work, and also because I’d like the person reading my resume to get a better idea of what my visual design and artwork looks like, as an augmentation to my portfolio. Is it appropriate to include hyperlinks in the body of my resume?

    For example:

    – Commisioned to create a branding campaign for Excellent Teapots Inc. in 2009. Photographs were selected for publication in a *book* (here is where I would format in a hyperlink to the book) curated by artist Teapot Commander, published by Bookpress in 2010.

    I figure if the person doesn’t want to click through the hyperlink, it’s hopefully not overly abtrusive or distracting, but I also am not the most experienced at resume writing, so I don’t want to do anything that is going to make me look unprofessional.

    My apologies if these questions have been addressed before. Thank you for your help!

    1. JS#2*

      I think it would be unusual, but I don’t see why not. Since you’re a graphic designer and your career lives and dies by your portfolio, I think it makes sense to include a hyperlink. It makes it easy / convenient for the reviewer to view your work, if they choose, which is always a good thing!

      I think the only issue would be how to tackle it from a visual standpoint:
      – If you create a hyperlink and it creates a blue underline (thus alerting the reviewer that this is a hyperlink), it might conflict with the look/feel of the rest of your resume.
      – If you create a hyperlink and it DOESN’T create a blue underline, the reviewer may not realize it’s clickable. You could (theoretically) add language that says “click here”, but I think that’s a bit old-fashioned and a little cheesy compared to current trends.

      As a graphic designer, I’m sure you could work that conundrum out, but one option might be to have a separate section on your resume for those hyperlinks to your portfolio items.

      Good luck!

    2. ronda*

      some creative jobs seem to ask for portfolio….. maybe it is best in that rather than hyperlinks that I am never supposed to click cause maybe you are computer virus type of person.

      I don’t do a creative job, so I might be wrong about it.
      maybe a section of links of selected works instead of putting it in the middle of your experience description?

  220. Langerhan*

    I’m starting a new job on Monday! Very exciting, very competitive (ridiculously so), excellent career progression with high expectations and the sort of project work that keeps me happy. It’s pretty much my dream job in my dream career.

    Unfortunately a close family member passed away semi-unexpectedly a couple of weeks ago and as a result, I’ve missed a couple of HR deadlines. I’m now caught up – they have all my starting documents, along with apologetic emails explaining why I was unable to meet the deadline. I’m feeling down that they don’t have the best first impression of me, but am more anxious that my first month or so isn’t going to be an accurate picture of what I know I can do. I currently feel like I’m walking around in a fog. My logical thinking and creative problem solving (the things they gave me particularly notable feedback on during the application process) are both shot. I keep forgetting to write things down and am not motivated to do anything. In short, they’re not going to get the person they thought they were hiring.

    What do I do? Should I say something when I meet my new boss? If so, how? “Hi, I’m Langerhan and the person who raised me died a couple of weeks ago so I’m going to suck for an unforeseeable amount of time”? Or should I just wait and see? I’m pretty sure I can manage average/good right now, but they thought they were hiring excellent, and I don’t want them to think I’ve lied to them. Or will they not care that much? Or see it as a normal part of acclimatizing to the job? Help!

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