open thread – September 28-29, 2018

by Alison Green on September 28, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Emmie*

    How do you convey an “executive presence?”

    I was at a recent social gathering with our corporate board, and someone commented about a person’s lack of executive presence impacting their ability to be promoted. I started to wonder how you’d convey that presence during innocuous social gatherings. For instance, I wonder how your choice of drink impacts executive presence (i.e. an orangesicle vs. an appropriate wine-meal pairing), or packing (overstuffed luggage vs. tightly packed efficient luggage.) Do you think those things also impact executive presence?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Are you sure that presence happens at innocuous social gatherings? I would assume it would be obnoxious to give an executive presence there. It’s more appropriate for large meetings, conference talks, or ribbon cutting ceremonies.

      1. Emmie*

        I believe your presence happens mostly there, but how you present yourself at these social gatherings (happy hour, post-conference dinners, running into your fellow exec in the hotel hallway) can also influence others perception of you. I ask because I ordered that fru-fru drink, and had overstuffed / too much luggage. Things that send social messages.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I don’t think executives should be judged based on their drinks, but, yes, there will be some people who unjustly judge you for that anyway.

      2. Emmie*

        I’ve had to bring my luggage into the office because I’m leaving straight for the airport. I’ve also traveled with execs, and shared cars.

      3. MissDisplaced*

        I’m not sure what luggage has to do with it other than maybe not seeming organized or pulled-together.

        Example: The movie ‘Up in the Air’ where George Clooney’s character takes one look at the young female Anna Kendrick’s character’s large old-fashioned suitcase and forces her to buy a new one.

        Here’s a link to the scene for reference: https://youtu.be/cnNyUGhXTsw

        1. Notthemomma*

          THIS movie! When we would hire new people for travel, I suggested to a few of them to watch this for the travel tips; and a little Clooney is never a bad thing ;-)

          1. MissDisplaced*

            A little Clooney is never a bad thing! ;-)
            I like this movie a lot. Probably it’s a little under-rated as it has some good insights about work and life.

            And Clooney’s character is absolutely right about security lines at the airport! I try not to stereotype like him… but you can just tell who’s an organized, regular traveller and who is not by how they act in the line. LOL! Or better, get your TSA pre-check and breeze through.

          2. a good mouse*

            When I first saw it and Vera Farmiga’s character says she’s not putting up big numbers, just 60,000 domestic, I was like it’s funny because that’s so much! Then I started traveling for work and saw it again, and I was like, “Yes, I agree that’s not a lot.”

        2. designbot*

          That’s exactly it, it’s not about luggage specifically, or your drink order specifically, or whatever else. It’s about conveying an overall impression of having yourself together. Being efficient and effective at all times, not sloppy or unfocused.

      4. Grapey*

        It’s probably unfair, but I have noticed travelling colleagues’ airport behaviors and thought differently of them based on it.

        One opened up her checked suitcase AND carry on at the ticketing counter floor to try to get her luggage weight down. It was a two night trip and the three other travellers just packed a small carry on. So her bringing checked luggage AND a carry on PLUS watching her rummage through like 10 different outfits made her look a bit inept.

        1. soon 2be former fed*

          Uh…I’ve done this because overweight bag charges were draconian. Overpacking may be inefficient but I don’t think it has anything to do with executive presence, whatever that is. The clothes and accessories in the luggage will mean a lot more in that respect.

          1. Jordan*

            On the other hand, if you cannot manage your packing, how can you manage a team? There is a correlation. I once heard the phrase, “How someone does something is how they do everything,” and its often true. A guy who dresses sloppily will likely do sloppy work. Its not 100% accurate, but for the purpose of this discussion, its a reality that cannot be ignored.

            1. TL -*

              Eh, my talents for organizing at work and my incredibly messy bedroom would disagree with you.

              I think that your awareness of how you come across at work is likely going to speak to your ability to present yourself and how you come across in most professional factors (so being aware that you’re traveling professionally and you always want to seem as competent as possible in a professional context) might be a thing worth considering. That would affect my judgment much more than if I ran into someone on a personal trip and realized they were more disorganized than they were at work.

            2. Perse's Mom*

              Eh. I’m in a different mindset at work than I am at home. My house is a mess, but my workspace in the office is tidy, and my work itself is organized. I’m also a sloppy dresser (in the sense that I have a body shape that would require every piece of clothing to be tailored to look Executive and f *that* noise), but again, my work speaks for itself (to the tune of company awards and rave reviews every year).

          2. Grapey*

            Yes, they are draconian, AND there’s still something about seeing scattered underwear that takes my opinion of someone’s ability to be organized down a notch.

        2. MissDisplaced*

          I’m kind of with you on that Grapey. Unless there is a good reason for the large checked bag, such as staying longer, equipment, etc., she’s making everyone else wait for her bag too. I also notice how they treat the airline staff. I used to have one manager who was Mr. Entitled Flyer and very demanding. It was horrible to travel with him.

        3. LJay*

          Yeah, I’ve been traveling a lot with my boss, and condensing my luggage and packing more effectively is actually something I’ve thought a lot about/worked on recently.

          I feel it does convey a sort of lack of organization/inefficiency when you have way more stuff than anyone else on the trip, or when your bags are so overstuffed that you can’t find things in them that you need, or fit them into the overheads because they’re bulging, or whatever.

          And I think mostly for me, it’s a confidence thing. It’s nearly impossible for me to feel confident or competent and put together when I’m flailing and searching for my wallet in my bag or when I’m struggling and failing to get the damn thing in the overhead bin.

          I actually went out and purchased a slightly smaller (like 19″ vs 21″) hardsided roller bag, because the I can’t overpack the hardsided bag like I do my soft bag. And I’ve made sure my backpack is organized. I feel a lot more put together and competent with these couple changes and I think it makes a difference in the way I’m seen by others as well.

          (And I totally judge based on others airport behaviors as well. I don’t think I would be as harsh on people who only travel very occasionally. However, some of my employees are 100% travel, so for them if they don’t travel effectively it’s a bigger deal than if it’s a once or twice a year thing.)

    3. Andy*

      sounds like either something specific to the observer OR a dogwhistle. Was the person they were referring to a 1) POC? or 2) woman?
      If neither, then prob something that the observer specifically thinks about when they think ‘executive’. like, for example, a suit that’s tailored well or charming manners and a diplomatic way of speaking.

        1. Lora*

          I literally went to a Women in Engineering thing this week where a senior woman executive was talking about how she was always asked to mentor younger women in Having Executive Presence and Being Less Abrasive. No men were ever referred to her for coaching in this regard.

          That said, I have a couple of socially unskilled friends who will never understand why they cannot get promoted and it’s very much an issue of, they aren’t at all presentable to clients or fundraisers. We might come to work in sloppy tee shirts and jeans, but we are expected to clean up nicely for special occasions. You can always tell who has a Permit Council Meeting or client presentation because they’re dressed up all spiffy. My aforementioned friends are technically gifted, but do not own even one single tailored suit or nice pair of shoes. Not one. I sympathize with the issues of having a weird size/shape that isn’t easily found in stores, but these people both have enough money to afford at least one custom tailored suit and a pair of bespoke shoes and regular haircuts. They’d just rather spend the money on alcohol and video games.

      2. Decima Dewey*

        Yeah, I read “lack of executive presence” as “we’re never going to promote Fergus, but we aren’t going to give the actual reason, lest we have our pants sued off.”

    4. ZSD*

      Be male.
      No, to be serious, I think that you’re right that ordering a simple glass of wine rather than a fru-fru (sp?) drink would be one step. And in general, I think the “dress for the job you want to have” advice comes into play here. Women probably also need to think about hairstyle and about speaking with authority. I know I tend to start too many of my sentences with hedges like, “I think,” or, “It seems like,” etc. (Conversely, I had a colleague who *never* used these, and he frankly wasn’t well-liked around the office. So I think there’s a happy medium.)
      Commenters in the past have shared the advice, “If you’re the expert, talk like it.” I think something similar applies to social gatherings. For example, if you’ve read multiple news articles on a subject rather than just the headlines, then you can talk with some authority on the topic.

      1. Alli525*

        Since you did ask, it’s “frou-frou.”

        And you’re exactly right about the extra steps women have to take just to be considered on an equal playing field for an exec position.

    5. The Tin Man*

      It’s a sad state that my first thought is that “lack of executive presence” could be code for “rich white male”.

      But if that isn’t the case with this person I imagine a lot is the ability to seem in control at all times, both social and professional. In a social sphere I can see that manifest in someone being comfortable leading (and exiting!) a conversation and having attention on them. Grooming and fashion would come into play too, and maybe drink or food choice. For drink I don’t think it would matter for most people whether someone ordered the exact right wine but there are mixed drinks that could be seen as less “professional” (i.e. the sugar-laden ones usually considered feminine, take that as you will). For food it would be a matter of not the selection but general manners while eating and not overeating.

      I am curious what other people think! I am far outside the executive realm so I am sure I am missing things or underestimating others.

      1. Apple Dumpling Gang*

        I don’t think it is the drink you order, as much as it is the attitude and demeanor you project. So you can be Gina Torres at a function with a pink drink but the attitude is still ‘boss’.

        I’ve seen the president of my company at company social events (retirement party for worker held at a microbrewery, holiday partys etc.) and she smiles, she makes sure to greet everyone and mingle, but she even as she is being social, there is always a sense that in the background she is ready to take charge, make decisions, determine responsibility.

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      I’d list:
      a) radiating a lack of confidence
      b) too much confidence appearing as inappropriate attempts at camaraderie, like making fun of someone’s last name

      The sort of behavior where if everyone is dressed identically and you were later told “Todd? Todd is the CEO” you would give a major side eye while wondering how on Earth that happened, since you’d had him pegged as someone who had a job where they couldn’t do much damage due to nepotism.

    7. Addie Bundren*

      Speak clearly and in full sentences (not expecting others to jump in when you’ve lost the track of your original point). Look people in the eye when they’re speaking; don’t scan the room constantly. Stand up straight; don’t fidget.

      Are these things more difficult for some than others? Certainly. But these are, for better or for worse, elements people notice that contribute to a sense of gravitas.

    8. Admin of Sys*

      While sadly acknowledging that this is often ‘does not look like the people I think of as executives’, I’d say executive presence is more the attitude than anything else. Quite confidence, the centered self that’s not overly grandiose nor overly ingratiating. There’s an awareness of space and self and how others react to it – poise, if you will.

      2. soon 2be former fed*

        It’s radiating a sense of power also, something we women are sometimes hesitant to do. Ironically, we can get dinged for radiating too much executive presence when we’re not executives. Then we are arrogant.

    9. Holly*

      I’d be curious if “executive presence” was code about “fits in with the current makeup of the board” or “fits my predetermined notions of what an executive looks and acts like.”

      But that aside, it’s likely more about an aura of confidence and competence.

    10. OperaArt*

      It’s a matter of body language, posture, where one’s eyes go, where one’s attention goes. I once had this conversation with my 5-levels-up boss, a woman. I’d just been at several improv classes where we’d learned about conveying status quickly, not by what we said but by how we moved.
      My multi-levels-up boss said that even when she walks into a room where no one knows her, they know she’s in charge. We had a great discussion about how that works. It’s body language.

      3. OperaArt*

        I’ll try. It’s one of those things that’s easier to show than to describe. My written descriptions may come across as simplistic, dogmatic, and lacking nuance.

        In the improv exercises, we worked with a scale of 1 through 10, with 1 being the lowest status and 10 being the highest. We all had to practice all 10 levels.
        Interestingly, we learned that projected status did not always match the character’s title or position in society.

        The highest status person in our improv exercises, let’s call them HS, entered the room quietly and in a straight forward fashion. HS did not scan the room, confident they would be the one being approached. HS made little eye contact until a conversation started, at which point they made great eye contact. HS had a quiet calmness when not directly engaged. HS talked less than most people in the room. HS had good posture. HS did not act flustered, even if things got strange. As I said above, HS was not always the person with the highest social position, but people seemed to feel more focused and on task once HS arrived. People who tried to portray HS as smug, entitled or bombastic tended to come across as lower status than what they were trying to be.

        My real 5-levels-up boss was like the best HS. She was knowledgeable, confident, and approachable. That’s how we ended up in a random conversation about perceived status, command presence, and being in charge.

      4. Falling Diphthong*

        Improv classes where we’d learned about conveying status quickly, not by what we said but by how we moved.

        This is really insightful. There’s a scene I enjoy in movies and TV shows, where the con artist drops his humble subordinate posture midstride and turns sharp and competent. In Sneaky Pete, which I just watched, but also memorably in Burn Notice and The Usual Suspects.

          1. Horrified*

            Totally agree. Acting “as if” has gotten me through many awkward and uncomfortable professional situations.

    11. Friday Anon*

      I think of the person that I look at and think “I could take you anywhere (for a business reason) and it would be fine.” The person has excellent social skills/table manners/manners in general, represents the company well, can hold their own in outside meetings, in knowledgeable not just about their work but about the organization as a whole (this one is huge IMO), and has the more superficial things nailed down as well (outfit looks nice/fits well/is clean, carry themselves with confidence)

        2. soon 2be former fed*

          Did she embody all these qualities before becoming an executive, or did she grow into some of them?

      2. Elle*

        Yes! I have a coworker who from the very first meeting I knew was going to be an executive one day, and the knowledge thing is huge. Whenever he speaks, I’m always like “yes that makes so much sense, why didn’t I think to say that!?” but in reality its that he takes so much time to truly understand every viewpoint of an issue before he chooses to speak on it – so that every point he makes is accurate and insightful. He’s someone who just doesn’t include buzz words or fluffy statements in his vocabulary, a straight shooter, but never insulting or off putting.

    12. Argh!*

      The best way to convey executive presence is to be a white male over six feet tall. Anything you can do to fake that will help you in social situations.

    13. Crylo Ren*

      It’s not a singular thing or even a couple of things. Yes, either of those things could contribute to a lack of executive presence; or they might not, depending on the rest of the person’s overall bearing, leadership style, etc.

    14. Elle*

      I honesty think its a “have it or don’t” air about someone, although it could probably be trained just like public speaking can be trained. Ever met someone and could just guess their profession before they even told you? I think some professions attract certain personality types. Executives are one of those.
      Most executives I know were basically born wanting to be in charge of important decision making, and focused a lot on learning things like how to shake hands and remember peoples’ names, making snap decisions, confidence without cockiness, etc. Unfortunately a lot of that learning can come from how you were raised, and there are certainly more rich white boys from rich white dads with the proper social aptitudes required to maintain an executive presence. But I’ve also seen plenty of people from other backgrounds teach themselves.

      1. nonymous*

        I have a coworker who’s a bit younger than me, but who came from a family with higher social standing than mine (her Dad’s a lawyer and mom is a district nurse; both my parents were of the last cohort of non-degree white collar workers and had very hands-off ideas about how to prepare kids for success). One thing I notice is the absolute confidence with which she speaks about stuff she is inexperienced at. And people just lap it up. One time, our grand-boss asked what would help us meet a goal of shorter turnaround times, and without missing a beat she confidently announced “pizza!” – right in front of our team lead. This is the person who is being groomed to take over my department. My grand-boss actually uses this story as an example of her leadership potential.

    15. MissDisplaced*

      I think I know what they meant. Sometimes saying ‘executive presence’ is something of a whole package. This could mean anything from the way the person dresses, how they speak, how they engage with others, to more personal things such as height, weight, hair, manners, voice, etc., etc., which all present a ‘package’ if you will of confidence, professionalism and a perception (whether true or not) of leadership.

      And I agree that men can and do get a huge advantage in this area. Men take up space, speak deeply, and are often perceived as being more powerful then women are, regardless of the setting.

      1. soon 2be former fed*

        Yeah, fat people don’t have executive presence for sure. Sarcasm font on. So many bullshit qualities are revered in the management world, so many talented people are overlooked because of it.

        1. TardyTardis*

          Fat *men* can have executive presence, especially in some parts of the world where that is seen as a sign of success. Fat women really have to work at it–for instance, Camryn Mannheim in THE PRACTICE. Her character acknowledged that she had to work for it, and that a thousand dollar Italian suit didn’t hurt (nor did her reputation as a rainmaker).

    16. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Look around at your executive team or higher ups… A few things that I’ve noticed (which for the record has nothing do with being a white male).

      Appearance:
      1. Polish -ambiguous, but it’s been spoken about here before. Think clean lines, tailored, understated, will stand out a little bit more from the crowd. For men, may mean the ‘uniform’ of suit coat + no tie. Women will generally include a jacket, muted blouse.
      2. Even in casual mixer/networking environments, the ‘executives’ will be dressed like above, if dressed casual, they will still be tailored. For instance instead of jeans- denim trousers for women, Men replacing slacks for expensive looking jeans. Still with a jacket in both cases.
      3. Accessories are quality and understated. Bags are gray or black, phone cases are not patterned, portfolios are leather and black.
      4. Yes, drinks can be part of this. Generally speaking if you would order it on spring break it may be best to skip at a corporate event.
      5. Shoes… For some reason I think the super secret handshake is actually a person’s shoes. It’s like a subliminal beacon to others. Shoes must be quality. Weird, but true in what I’ve observed.

      Demeanor/Actions:
      1. Confidence… Execs mingle, they’ll float through a room and they’ll talk to everyone.
      2. When not mingling they tend to cluster and hang back. They’re a little above what’s going on around them without coming off as aloof.

      Non-Execs who have executive presence will be able to slide into that circle. In other words, next time you are in a group with execs and non execs mingling. Watch them. Then look around at random non-execs in the crowd. If you were to drop that non exec into the group what would make them stand out to you?

      Honestly I’ve always found the whole sociology of group dynamics, mixing, outside identification and self identification fascinating. I actually asked my husband a similar philosophical question. “Do you land in a group because of your looks or does the group you belong to influence your appearance?” It was sparked by the ‘executive look’ . One for the record I don’t think I’ll ever be able to pull off unless I have someone else dress me and even then I’m not sure that I could pull it off. That being said I’m not sure my lack of executive uniform conformance has hurt my advancement.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        One of the interesting sidebar discussions on AAM was about why, on casual Friday, the execs’ khakis with a blue oxford didn’t look like the lower level staff’s khakis with a blue oxford.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          I’m telling you it’s the shoes!

          /I’ll take off my conspiracy hat now

          It’s cut, tailoring, weight of fabric, and a thousand other subtle differences. But yes, it’s true. There is a discernible difference.

          1. Elle*

            Yes, how expensive it is matters – the fabric and cut is better. I have a pair of fancy black slacks and a pair I got on the clearance rack, and I look like a different person when I swap them even with all other clothing the same.
            Also, accessories. The execs are always still wearing their fancy watches and carrying their leather encased phones. (And, moreover, not carrying those thick binders full of paper the rest of us have to carry around for notes).

      2. Elle*

        This is so interesting, thank you!

        I will say, after a lifetime of Kohls type clothing, I finally gave in and went ‘grown up clothes’ shopping at White House Black Market and got really lucky with a stylist who put together a million amazing outfits for me. I have noticed a huge change in the way I am perceived at work, although some of that may be my own confidence. I traded from cardigans to blazers, from cheap shoes to leather shoes, and all of my clothes fit like only expensive lined clothes can. I no longer feel like I don’t belong in meetings where I’m the most junior, and on the flip side no one questions who I am when I walk in and they don’t know me. Maybe it shouldn’t matter so much what we wear, but I do think dressing for the job you want is a real thing. I no longer plan to treat clothing as a spot to save money, but rather an investment in my future.

      3. caryatis*

        What is the distinction between jeans and “denim trousers”? Is it just that the “trousers” are more expensive?

        1. TheTallestOneEver*

          Denim trousers are typically cut like regular trousers (not skinny jeans or any dramatic flares or bootcuts, no big pockets on the back) in a dark rinse denim. They’re not necessarily expensive. I have pairs that I’ve bought from Target and Gap.

    17. bb-great*

      To me “executive presence” seems similar to what I would call “polish.” It’s like a combination of factors that contribute to an overall impression of competence. So everything from well dressed and groomed, good posture, at ease in social situations, calm, confident, etc etc etc. So yeah, I would say a more ~sophisticated~ drink choice, and having well packed luggage (and the luggage itself is decent) would be contributing factors. I don’t know whether that’s what your board members meant or not but that’s how I would interpret it.

      Of course, there’s a whole other discussion to be had about how race/gender/etc impact these standards and how they’re applied, how some people use this language as code to exclude certain groups of people, and how much any one individual might choose to care or not care about these details.

      1. Emmie*

        Not to derail too much here, but I’ve seen two recent articles discussing gender roles in the legal setting. The Associated Press released an article yesterday about the Kavanaugh-Ford hearing. It essentially discussed how he was able to express his anger and cry while she remained calm and polite. (I don’t think it’s appropriate to discuss the merits of her claim on this blog.) The Atlantic posted an article in September about What It Takes to Be a Trial Lawyer If You are Not a Man. Though both speak to law, both speak to our corporate lives.

    18. Essess*

      I think of this comment more in terms of behavior and how you carry yourself. Do you go around and talk to everyone (work the room?) and greet people by name when you arrive? Or do you head right to the bar/food table to partake? Do you stand with a small clique of friends at one side or do you mingle? Do you ask questions to the people you are next to at the event or do you hang back and just listen to others interact?

    19. theletter*

      I personally think that what often happens is that Business Acumen is the thing executives are looking for, but they can’t really articulate that when pressed, so they say something along the lines of confidence or executive presence.

      Most of the time, the person who gets promoted is the person who’s bringing in the money or maintaining peak efficiency, while conveying that they are bringing in money and maintaining efficiency in their manner at work, ie, in meetings they can speak to their work in those two goals and provide guidance to others, and rarely let other topics make their way into the agenda.

      It’s actually very easy to convey in the work place a lack of knowledge, or of prioritization, which would in my mind convey a lack of executive presence. But I could imagine a person who knows her work well and prioritizes it for the sake of creating value/efficiency could easily convey her executive presence over many a frou frou drink while her overstuffed bag waits for her at coat check.

      Of course, if the person she’s speaking to is racist or sexist, all bets out the window.

  2. Step6orbust*

    Looking for commentator’s experience on negotiating government salaries that are on a step pay scale system. I just got invited to an interview and when I look up the pay scales online, I see that where I’m hoping to start would basically be Step 6 on this (non-federal) government pay scale (the salary range posted spans $25K – I’m hoping to start in the middle, which would be a very small increase over my current salary). Is this even possible? I’ve been at my current govt job for 10 years and started at step 1 – I don’t know have any experience negotiating a starting salary and no one here at my current workplace (that I know of) started at a higher step.

    1. Teapot librarian*

      I haven’t negotiated but I’ve hired; if you had 10 years experience at an equivalent grade position, I’d probably recommend step 6 or 7 (my government has 10 steps within grade), maybe even 8.

      1. Step6orbust*

        Great, thank you, that’s comforting. This city government scale has 8 steps, then a “performance range”. (I was telling a friend about the interview and she asked me why I would switch jobs for a paycut. I explained that the range covered what I wanted to make but that, yes, the starting few steps were below my current salary. She said “no one ever starts about Step 1. Maybe Step 2, MAYBE, but definitely not Step 6.” I was debating cancelling the interview since I can’t accept a lower salary.)

        1. state government jane*

          “Performance range” is a good sign, IMO, that they have flexibility and would be open to negotiation. If I were you, I would also consider other benefits/perks you’d like to negotiate for (in addition to or in place of a big pay bump)… more vacation time? Flexible schedule? Telework? Crazy nines? Even if those things seem to not be on the table, it’s worth an ask. Sometimes, governments/agencies have more flexibility than they let on.

          (Caveat: Though I know from your other comments this isn’t a fed job, for anyone else who may be reading–I have no experience in federal government! State & smaller only.)

    2. De Minimis*

      My only experience is federal. Would this job be considered a promotion? I know with the feds when someone moves to a higher grade job they compare the two salaries and will adjust the starting step depending on how much you’re currently making. Hopefully your pay system has something similar.

    3. TR*

      I have negotiated successfully for both local and federal government jobs. With the federal job, the increase I negotiated was based solely on my previous salary – they just moved me to the step immediately above that. With a county job, it was a little more complicated because I had just graduated with a PhD and was moving from a low cost of living to a high cost of living area, so there wasn’t an easy marker to peg it to (which I think is what they wanted to do). But they made an offer, I asked if it could be a bit higher, and they moved me up one step. I’m guessing that since your current salary is in the middle, you might have some success.

    4. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

      Just got hired for a fed position. This is something to bring up with the hiring official, and it will happen after you get a tentative offer. In general, you’ll have to make something of a case for yourself based on your years of experience, any especially valuable experience you might have, professional development, and so on. It’s generally not hard to start at a step commensurate with your last salary plus 10% or so, rounded to the nearest step.

      My suggestion is to look up the OPM General Schedule Position Standards and look up your position series, as well as the GS pay scale. It’ll give you a better idea how much experience and which job duties correspond to which GS rating and step you want, and how to make that case clearly.

      2. soon 2be former fed*

        Thirty one year fed here, entered federal service after ten years in the private sector. I came in at step 1 of the grade of the position I was offered. It was a big increase for me. While in the government, I went up a few steps when I got promoted.

    5. M. Albertine*

      My experience is in a University pay scale, but I think your best plan of attack would be to compare your skill set to the job description and see what “bonus” skills you can bring to the table. For example, when I started, I had a lot of process improvement skills, which wasn’t specifically spelled out in the job description, but based on some of the outcomes they were looking for was a big plus. If there is an extremely good fit, and your onboarding will take less training you can also use that.

    6. Yorick*

      Based on experience, HR wanted to give me step 6. I don’t know how they calculated that. I was able to negotiate up to step 8.

      1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

        It’s a point-based scoring system. OPM publishes a series of position qualification documents that spells out the number of points that correspond to experience, duties, education, and so on. Based on how the HR staffer totals the points, they arrive at a given GS rating and step. Of course, they might not appropriately score your experience, so there’s room to negotiate a little.

        1. TardyTardis*

          Don’t forget to mention veteran preference if you can, that makes points with the feds, too.

    7. Kittymommy*

      Some of this may depend on the government in question and how it’s structured. Where I work you can negotiate 6% up from the offer. Anything outside of that had to generally go before the elected officials during a public meeting. That ain’t happening unless you are director or above. I would check to see if they have any mandates on the negotiation.

      1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

        Are you a) in the US and/or b) familiar with federal hiring? I don’t mean to be dismissive or rude at all, but US federal government hiring is its own, very strange, animal, and it has many points of major divergence from other levels of government and other countries’ requirements.

        1. De Minimis*

          My reading of the question was that it wasn’t federal, or at least the job that’s being interviewed for isn’t federal. I think it’s getting confused because the only experience many of us have had with this has been in the federal system, but sounds like Step6orbust is looking at some other governmental pay system.

              1. kittymommy*

                No worries. The ones we use are not really similar to the feds but the idea of it is the same; but yeah the fed is weird.

        2. kittymommy*

          Yes, I am in the US and work for the local government. I was answering the question based on the fact that it was not a federal government job, which I have worked for in the past and is very different from local.

    8. 20yearsand3careersago*

      I’m in hr local government and by me it totally depends upon how the government is set up – have you checked what their compensation policy is (either in the code/bylaws and/or their published budget)?
      Often governments say that as long as the Chief Administrative Officer approves you can start at any step appropriate to a person’s experience, but that is not always the case. It’s worth looking at their code and/or budget to see what constraints they might be dealing with.

      1. De Minimis*

        I know when I was interviewing for various city/county government jobs over the summer I often found useful information within budgets and related documents. Sometimes it required a fairly deep dive within their website [or on a google search.] Just depends on what’s out there.

    9. nonymous*

      What I’ve seen work well is to identify the different expectations for each grade (e.g. grade 9 is bachelor’s degree and grade 11 is Masters and grade 13 is PhD or contributor/lead/supervisor progression) and then refer back to your CV to demonstrate experience (for a lot of pay scales, the step increases are strictly about time served).

      So for example say someone had 5 years experience as Lead Teapot Painter at company A. When they switched to Company B in the same role, they would be eligible for Grade 11 (due to Lead status) and then if Company B is on a 2year/step schedule they would be bumped up to a step 2 or step 3.

    10. state government jane*

      I’m in state government (surprise!), and in my state & in my experience the step can be negotiated. A simple “Is that the best you’re able to offer?” got me bumped up two steps (which wasn’t a ton of money, but it was gravy–I was happy with what they’d offered and would probably have accepted even if that was the best they could do salary wise). Other things, which may appear non-negotiable, may actually be negotiable! I’ve heard tell of folks negotiating for additional vacation time, even though our vacation scale is straightforwardly set statewide. There are ways around these structures, in my experience–they want to recruit and retain the best people, so there are sort of shadow infrastructures in place for negotiation/wiggle room.

  3. Knitter*

    I posted yesterday in the “Good Workplaces” thread about difficulties that I was having with a co-worker and how amazingly supportive my supervisor and his boss have been. It’s a new position and I’m new to the organization. I think I’m finally in a good place with this colleague. We have developed some systems and clarified our roles. That said, I am worried about her propensity to misattribute my intent in a situation to something negative or malicious.
    Like, if she doesn’t know what I’m working on, then I’m not working. If I’m not doing something the way she wants it to be done, then I’m doing it wrong. If I say I don’t know something then say that I do (once I remember), then it’s odd, I’m trying to hide something from her, and I just need to be honest about what I don’t know. That latter example resulted in her having a conversation with another colleague about how odd that was and why I can’t be honest about what I don’t know (she shared this with me to reinforce how odd I was).
    Since she has been at the organization longer, she has relationships with other colleagues. I know she gossips with certain ones about me (Also, I once watched her and another colleague edit a google doc to undermine my role by changing the contact for a certain system, among other things).
    Currently I have my boss’ support. I do work closely with many of the other supervisors on his level and I have good relationships with several of them. I’m building relationships with the staff on my level and, I believe, have demonstrated reliability and competence. That said, I know how gossip works and knows that it can seep in to the collective consciousness of the organization.

    I’m planning on sharing this concern with my supervisor because I feel like naming things beforehand can make them more obvious when they happen. I’m also going to ask for his support in reminding her to share important information with me (I just found out she was leaving me out of major communications to partners). I’m also planning on being a super communicator and taking notes on all of our interactions.
    I love this job and I’ve had a scattered work history the last few years (laid off, couldn’t find a job for 9 months (pregnant most of the period of unemployment time—I interviewed for jobs 2 days before delivering and 5 days after…) then I was at a job for a year, which had toxic leadership and they didn’t renew my contract despite only receiving glowing feedback which is a whole other story). I need this relationship to work-for my sanity, for my continued employment and to rebuild my resume.

    Is there anything else I think I should be thinking about to build my value in the org/respect of my colleagues and minimize her negative impact?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      The best way to counter negative gossip is to be above reproach. Do excellent work and feign ignorance if/when anyone brings up anything she might say.

    2. Camellia*

      I think Alison has provided some good scripts for these situations, along the lines of “Why would you think [I’m not working/I’m doing this wrong when it’s obvious I’m following procedure]?”, asked with a puzzled/confused look.

    3. NotAParalegal*

      I think the advice given to be above reproach is great, it sounds like you’re on top of things in terms of relationships and reputation.

      My primary concern here is the sabotage of your actual work documents. I would make sure you keep a saved copy no one else can access, and consider locking edits/restricting access to necessary parties only. Or if you can, turn on tracking to see who made changes (and when). That type of behavior is unacceptable and I would definitely want to talk to my manager if I had evidence of it. In my line of work, it could potentially cause damage to the company if someone deviated from my edits. At the least it could make you and your team look incompetent/careless which also isn’t great.

      1. Knitter*

        This is excellent advice I hadn’t thought of. I changed the permissions after I saw that, but will now have an original saved as a word doc.

      2. Accidental Analyst*

        If you’re using google docs look at the version history. It shows you the changes, when they were made and who made them. Nothing like incontrovertible proof when it comes to raising sabotage.

          1. tangerineRose*

            This is probably a good thing to show your supervisor if you haven’t already. If I found out that someone had deliberately put misinformation on a document, I’d want to let that person go.

    4. Jadelyn*

      Keep working on your relationship-building with peers and managers outside your own reporting structure. If you have opportunities for cross-function/dept projects, definitely jump on those (as long as you can do so without overcommitting yourself and causing issues down the line). The more opportunities people outside your team have to see you in action and work with you directly, the more they’ll feel comfortable relying on their experience with you over her gossip about you.

    5. WellRed*

      I disagree with your assessment that you are finally in a good place with this colleague. She sounds…dangerous.

      1. Knitter*

        Fair point. In order to make sure I’m above reproach, I choose to present as outwardly optimistic while privately viewing her as a snake in the grass…and documenting all interactions.

    7. Feliz*

      I had the joy of working with someone like this (*heavy sarcasm*). I too had a supportive manager & I wished I’d taken it to her earlier – but it was a lot of “invisible” things like not saying hi to me in the morning when she said hi to everyone else at the same time. We happened to start at roughly the same time but she tried to do what your co-worker is doing – question my abilities/integrity etc.

      The good news – this did not work. Other people were just as baffled as I was by this behaviour and were perfectly capable of seeing what she was doing & making up their own minds. She also self-sabotaged by complaining about stuff, being difficult to work with if you weren’t someone she wanted to impress etc.

      Revenge is sweet though – I continued to treat her cordially & professionally, her contract was not renewed and I had multiple opportunities within that company in the 4yrs I stayed there.

      I hope your co-workers are as good as mine were at seeing what is going on for what it is. Good luck!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Some of this you can address head on.
      “Jane, if you are not sure what I am working on please ask. I will be happy to share with you. But please don’t assume I am not working on something. ”
      Okay, now you have your set up. WHEN she does this again, because she will, “Jane, we talked about this before. I don’t mind if you ask me what I am working on. But if you will recall, I asked you not to just assume I wasn’t working on something. It’s okay to ask me any time.” The second time you remind her of the previous conversation. Most people that I have worked with who are like this, absolutely HATE being reminded of a previous conversation. So they stop that particular behavior…. and find a new one. So you start the process again.

      Ex 2, Setup:”Jane, once in a while I forget something then remember it later. A great many people do this and it’s not unheard of. If I suddenly remember something I will email you/stop by and tell you/whatever, right away. And I expect to be treated the same way in return.”
      Second occurrence: “Jane, remember we talked about this earlier. If I remember something later on I will be sure to follow up with you, as I am sure you would do the same for me.” (Irony, she does not remember that you spoke to her once about this.)

      Try, try, try to remember that these behaviors can be indicative of a very, very UNhappy person. And this has nothing to do with you and everything to do with her life/job/well-being.

      Your best weapon is to be friendly with EVERYONE and treat everyone with the same level of deference and courtesy. It takes time but your consistency will eventually show Jane to be a foolish person. I find this to be a stronger weapon than doing your job beyond reproach. Yes, follow the rules of course. We all make mistakes, if you make a mistake pull it back by saying, “I will fix that.” If you can’t fix it, just say, “I will never make that mistake again.” And then don’t make that mistake again.

      It’s really easy to make our goal to be placating the Janes of the world. I have seen it first hand and I have seen it with others, we can change that goal to “having good working relationships with as many people as possible” and this can be a stronger plan. The Janes of the world can never be appeased. They are going to be angry over something no matter what we do. Each day when you go in, make yourself think about everyone around you not just Jane. Build working relationships where ever you can.

      It may not be this month or next month but I am betting at some point you will start to notice eye rolls when ever Jane speaks. Pay attention to that little gesture, pay attention to who is rolling their eyes. These people already have a solid read on Jane.

  4. Jenna Maroney*

    Tips for keeping a cool head when male coworkers inevitably say something stupid or insensitive about yesterday’s hearing?

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        These are good. Not offering an opening for a fun, fun, fun debate during which you’d better not show any emotion.

    2. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      I’m not sure if this is helpful or not, but yesterday, everyone in my office wouldn’t stop talking about it, so I ended up shutting my door under the guise of needing some quiet to focus for a little while and putting my phone on “do not disturb.” Obviously, this doesn’t solve the problem, but it helped me to keep a cool head and to not go crazy yesterday.

    3. ZuZu*

      Deep breaths, and a request to not discuss politics at work. If they insist, calmly remove yourself from the room if you can. Best of luck.

    4. esra*

      I wish I had a good tip. The sheer amount of angry bees inside me has left me in a place where I just straight up say I don’t want to talk about (insert issue here) with them.

      1. AVP*

        I’m on a work trip with my boss this week and he ~wont~stop~talking~about~it. The other men that are here are helping me run interference by changing the topic immediately every time he brings it up. We didn’t even discuss this, I did it once and they took my lead. Don’t know how we’re going to get through til we go home tomorrow though

          1. Andy*

            I’m sorry your boss won’t take a hint, I’m really glad you’ve got friends with you you have your back as much as they can. For me, that’s one of the most comforting things, probably because it all feels so isolating.

        2. Doc in a Box*

          The person introducing this week’s grand rounds speaker tried to “joke” about how the speaker was at Yale, but not at the same time as Kavanaugh so don’t go subpoena’ing her! Pin-drop, stone-faced silence.

    7. Arielle*

      Adding onto that, what do you say to male coworkers who are actually cool guys who respect your opinion and genuinely want to know what you think as the only Ladyperson on the team, and you don’t have the energy to talk about it but don’t want to shut down their spirit of honest questioning? Asking for a friend.

      1. AVP*

        I feel okay repeating what you just said. “I appreciate that you want to know but I really don’t have the energy for this today,” or “I really need to focus on this meeting/work project right now and was enjoying the distraction, but maybe another time!”

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        “I’m sorry. I’m so exhausted by this that I just can’t rototill through it any more.”

        (The ‘sorry’ acknowledging that the question was asked fairly, not meant as a challenge to debate.)

      3. Wendy City*

        I’m a big fan of “You know, it’s been really hard and emotional for me, and I’m not a big fan of talking about it/the hearings at work. [subject change — do you think it’s going to rain this weekend, did your baseball team make the playoffs, how about this crazy thing that happened at work this week].”

        Also, a gentle reminder that, even though you’re the only Ladyperson on the team and even though there is a spirit of honest questioning, you don’t have to do the emotional labor of talking about this if you don’t want to. You don’t owe then answers as A Representative of Their Gender — there are more than enough resources online for them to read (The Cut has been running good pieces and recaps of it all, in particular) if they want to do some honest questioning on their own time.

        1. Jadelyn*

          This is an excellent point – we can very often feel like we have to play the role of Authority on Ladybusiness, and when you’ve got the energy to do so it can be good to, since that may help chip away at their preconceived notions and misunderstandings. But it’s not an obligation, and maybe you could redirect them to reading The Cut’s pieces on it or something similar.

          1. TotesMaGoats*

            I talked about this in my classes this week. Saying you don’t have any obligation to be the “explainer” for X. Religion. Culture. Medical Issue. Whatever. You get to choose where that boundary is.

      4. Detective Amy Santiago*

        If they are genuinely cool guys, they should accept “I don’t have the emotional bandwith to discuss this right now.”

      5. Mike C.*

        Well just tell them that. If they’re actually cool guys who respect your opinion, they’ll respect the fact you don’t feel like dealing with it right now.

          1. Les G*

            Mike, with all due respect: sit down and shut up. It’s hard to even begin explaining how offensive this is.

            1. Les G*

              But, ok, I’ll try: research does not mean “asking a traumatized person to explain why they’re traumatized.” It means “doing some internet research that does not involve talking to other people.” The OP shouldn’t bear the burden of any of this. Your beloved “UYFW” had no place here.

              1. Rat in the Sugar*

                I’m not sure where you’re getting traumatized from, did I miss that in a comment? I thought Arielle was just talking about male coworkers who asked her opinion because the news is plastered with stuff about #metoo and women’s rights and what the case means for women, and Arielle is a woman.

          2. Rat in the Sugar*

            Yeah, I think it’s pretty normal to ask someone you know in person that you think would know about it. No one is obligated to play professor, and if they keep asking after you say you don’t want to talk about it then they’re being jerks, but I wouldn’t take away their “cool” status, so to speak, for asking someone they thought had personal knowledge instead of googling it.

            Also, just in my personal experience when I’ve tried to research social issues online I find so many different takes and interpretations, many of which are mutually exclusive viewpoints. It’s often very difficult trying to determine which source is actually the one to listen to–it’s easy to find multiple members of the same social group, all of whom should have equally valid opinions/interpretations at first glance, and all of whom are expressing views that conflict with each other. I hear those people who say it’s exhausting to be asked to explain issues to others (and have experienced that end of things myself on certain issues), so I keep chugging along and just try to sort through it all as best I can, but I also think it’s understandable that someone would give up, or not even know where to start. (Should go without saying that still doesn’t obligate anyone to play professor).

            1. blackcat*

              If someone asks me to speak for “women” I get pissed. Women are not a monolith. And it’s particularly offensive to ask me, white woman, to speak for all women. Even if they’re all “it’s totally cool if you don’t want to go into it” it’s not cool that they asked. If they ask my personal opinion, okay. But if there is any “As a woman, how do you feel about X” I nope right out of there.

            2. Doc in a Box*

              Thing is, the variety of opinions/interpretations is the point! No social group is a singular; we all experience the world through many different lenses. That’s precisely why so many people feel uncomfortable being asked to speak as though they are representative of the entire group.

              You don’t need to try to “determine which source is actually the one to listen to” — you need to listen to all of them (or as many as you can) and form your own critical opinion accordingly.

            1. Mike C.*

              So you’re going to claim that asking the opinions of others with experience or noted points of view with the aim of listening to their expertise and experience is somehow not a common way to learn something, or are you just conflating the act of requesting with a demand or obligation for an answer?

                1. Rat in the Sugar*

                  Look, I’m not Alison and this isn’t my site, but I gotta say that leaving a bunch of comments that just say “No.” is not really helpful for anyone.

                2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Agreed with Rat in the Sugar here. It’s not helpful. If you don’t have it in you to leave a constructive response (which I TOTALLY understand right now) I would rather you sit it out and let others respond rather than make it combative. Thanks.

              2. Here and Now*

                The only qualification that we know the OP here has is being a “ladyperson.” I don’t understand how you determine this means she has experience or a notable point of view. Men do not have the right to expect lessons about sexual assault from women just because they are women, even more so when they are in the workplace. They should ask an expert if they need too, and it is a very effing sad state of affairs that many abuse survivors are women. I guess if she’s not a survivor she’s not an “expert” and if she is a survivor she should suffer her trauma publicly? Please think this through and don’t ask your local ladyperson inappropriate questions.

                1. Mike C.*

                  Again, you’re absolutely right that no one has the right to expect an answer or lesson or whatnot, at the same time when you have a previously established relationship where discussions happen in a safe environment of mutual respect, it’s not uncalled for to ask.

                  And frankly, simple differences can make a world of difference when it comes to trying to pop your own personal bubble.

                2. Doc in a Box*

                  Mike C, you seem to be really intent on the male prerogative to ask their nearest woman-friend to detail her experiences of sexism and misogyny and generally act as The Representative of All That is Woman. I urge you to consider why that’s so.

                3. Mike C.*

                  Doc, did you seriously miss the part where I talked about having a previously established relationship? Did you also miss the part where I was explicit about how no one was entitled to an answer?

                4. Doc in a Box*

                  MikeC, nope, saw that, that’s why I responded directly below that particular comment of yours.

                  There are plenty of women who are vocal and willing to share their experiences, whether in writing or YouTube videos or blogposts. If you’re interested in “trying to pop your personal bubble,” try those resources; don’t confront a woman you know personally *unless* she has specifically invited you to ask her questions about it.

              3. Christine*

                Everydayfeminism has a decent article about this:
                Why Pressuring Someone to ‘Educate’ You About Their Struggles Is Oppression, Not Understanding
                (I don’t think I’m supposed to include a link, but that title is highly google-able)

                For a long time, I took opportunities to educate men when asked, or when there was an opening. I approached it by being friendly and assuming they wanted to make people around them feel comfortable and appreciated, asking if they wanted to learn more about the thing they said/referenced before proceeding. After a few years, I am confident saying that a majority of the time men have asked me for education, they end up arguing with me and putting me in the position of defending myself. It is exhausting.

                I don’t want to speak for @JennaMarony, but to me, it looks like you’re asking them to educate you… on why asking someone to educate you is exhausting.

                In addition to that article on everyday feminism, I think it might be helpful if you looked at the concept of ’emotional labor’ and did some thinking about the emotional labor women are expected to do that man are not. There should be pretty consistent results if you use the exact term ‘women’s emotional labor’.

                I fully recognize the irony of me posting this.

                1. Alice*

                  Pressuring is not the same as inviting. I don’t see where OP said they are pressuring her or pushing back when she asks then not to.

                2. Christine*

                  In my experience, a person with more privilege than me asking me for something is uncomfortable to say no to, especially when that person has been socialized to believe that they are entitled to women’s emotional labor. YMMV depending on the men in your area/life.

          4. Starbuck*

            No, that’s not doing any work. That’s asking someone else to do that work of explaining it to you, in an oh-so-carefully crafted way so you don’t accidentally make them feel too angry or guilty or confronted. Even when they ARE part of the problem. It’s exhausting. Just more men expecting women to do work for them and not taking accountability for their own learning.

      7. LGC*

        I think you answered your own question: say that YOU can’t answer and it’s overwhelming for you right now.

        I’m not wild about how your team is assuming you’re the most qualified to weigh in on the Kavanaugh hearings because YOU’RE A WOMAN and thus are an expert on sexual assault. (Maybe I’m reading too far into this.) But if they’re really as cool as you say, they’ll respect that this is overwhelming for you.

        Just one dude’s opinion.

      8. Serin*

        “If I were the only person you knew whose dog had been run over in the last 24 hours, would you be inviting me to join a general conversation about how people feel about their pets?”

          1. OyHiOh*

            My spouse gets asked about their experiences in the “watched someone die” category all the f****g time. It’s a shockingly inappropriate yet shockingly common question for veterans to field.

    8. beanie beans*

      My favorite response for just about any inappropriate uncomfortable comments, but would fit this:
      “I’m surprised you’re comfortable saying that.” It puts it on THEM, not you, being the sensitive offended person, but them being rude or inappropriate.

    10. disney+coffee*

      I got into it with a male coworker yesterday and I tried to keep a cool head (to be fair, he’s 60+ and 6′ while I’m 22 and 5’3, I needed to be a little bit robotic and fact-based in order to be taken seriously). Anyways, my best advice is to have irrefutable facts and general comparisons.

      False accusations are not a widespread problem. Statically 2-7% of sexual assault allegations are false. 1 in 4 women have been or will be sexually assaulted. Many survivors wait years to disclose (just look at the whole situation with the Catholic Church). This is not a criminal trial, the Senate is judging him on character. It’s very common to have met 65 women that you have not tried to assault. Women deserve to be treated with respect.

      Know your facts and stick to them. Only speak in statistics and try to take all emotion out of it.

      1. Jenna Maroney*

        This article gives some great insight into how rarely false accusations happen (and why they happen when they do): https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

        “This may be hard to believe, especially considering that rape is a felony, punishable with years of prison. However—to start with this worst-case scenario—it’s exceedingly rare for a false rape allegation to end in prison time. According to the National Registry of Exonerations, since records began in 1989, in the US there are only 52 cases where men convicted of sexual assault were exonerated because it turned out they were falsely accused. By way of comparison, in the same period, there are 790 cases in which people were exonerated for murder.

        Furthermore, in the most detailed study ever conducted of sexual assault reports to police, undertaken for the British Home Office in the early 2000s, out of 216 complaints that were classified as false, only 126 had even gotten to the stage where the accuser lodged a formal complaint. Only 39 complainants named a suspect. Only six cases led to an arrest, and only two led to charges being brought before they were ultimately deemed false. (Here, as elsewhere, it has to be assumed that some unknown percentage of the cases classified as false actually involved real rapes; what they don’t involve is countless innocent men’s lives being ruined.)”

    11. DataQueen*

      I just wish that those who found this so important and wanted to talk about it to everyone would also be educated enough to know how triggering it can be, and be a little more considerate. I had to leave early yesterday because of it.

      1. AVP*

        yes! People trying to be supportive can make it worse if you’re trying not to dwell on this while at work, today and every other day.

    12. Annie Moose*

      For my work friend yesterday: finish making your coffee AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, sprint out of the room, and scream on Slack to your friends until we’ve all calmed down enough to keep working. (she didn’t trust herself to say anything without flipping out on him–he wasn’t talking directly to her, just while she was in the room–and I completely understand that)

      …needless to say there is a certain male coworker I will not be able to feign friendliness toward for awhile. I wasn’t even present and I’m still furious with him.

    13. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Hi, y’all. This site has a no-politics rule and so I ask that you keep that in mind during this discussion (which I know will be tricky but is doable). I’ve removed a couple of comments that were pretty openly political. Sorry about that.

      1. Jenna Maroney*

        Curious– I made a comment where I provided a link about an article that discusses false accusations. Would that fall under the “too political” umbrella?

    15. What's with Today, today?*

      Unfortunately, I am experiencing just as many women making “stupid and insensitive” comments (OP’s words). The mean-spirited things I have heard directed at survivors from other women has saddened me. I’m doing a lot of eye-rolling, ignoring, battle picking and heavily using the FB unfollow button. Some folks I will engage in civil debate with, others, well there is just no point.

    17. Lumen*

      Can I offer “don’t”?

      I’m not saying you should be rude, belligerent, interrupt people, raise your voice, get red in the face, and cry. (That’s only considered professional if you’re a judicial nominee.)

      I’m just saying that at this point, I don’t see why it would be shocking for a woman to become visibly angry or upset, turn on her heel, and simply walk away from people who are being stupid and insensitive.

      That’s all I feel capable of doing today, so I’ll let you know how it goes.

      1. voyager1*

        I live in the deep south, the 3 convos I saw yesterday at work about the hearing:

        1. Two older white women “the woman is a liar.”

        2. 30ish pair of white dudes “that lady totally had something happen to her.”

        3. 20 something white female with 20 something white male, they weren’t talking but just watching the TV in what I would describe as sheer mouth open in awe. The scene on the TV to be fair was when Graham was going off about democratic nominees
        during one of the breaks.

        I honestly can’t believe someone didn’t change the channel the whole day in the break room.

        No to be mean but maybe it is where I live in the country, but the most adamant defenders of the nominee have been 40+ yr old white women.

        2. What’s with Today, today?*

          I’m in the deep south too and am experiencing the same. I actually had a female acquaintance say yesterday “If you don’t want your critters touched, don’t get drunk and show them off like a petting zoo.” No. Just no. I have a four-year-old son. I have to teach him that a woman can be totally inebriated and wearing nothing, and he has NO right to touch her. None. Full stop.

          2. Lolli*

            I always told my sons, ‘you don’t want to be someone’s regret. It is a bad place to be for the rest of their lives’.

            1. Windchime*

              This is brilliant, and I wish I’d thought of saying it when my boys were still under my care (they are both in their 30’s now).

        3. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          If I would have to guess while being maximally charitable to my gender and age group (40+ something women), I’d say it’s because when we were that age, that type of behavior was normal. I have multiple stories from my late teens and early 20s, that would horrify my sons, but leave women my age and older going: “so what’s the big deal? nothing happened”.

          It was even worse in my parents’ generation (admittedly my parents spent most of their lives in Eastern Europe”. I remember mom telling me about how when she was in her 20s, a male friend locked her in a room in his apartment, and told her something like “I’ll be around, when you change you mind and decide to have sex, let me know and I’ll unlock the door”. In mom’s words “but I was a competitive gymnast then, so I crawled out his window and went home and nothing happened”. How is it “nothing happened”? Well, in the 1960s, it was.

          If it’s the deep south, I’d say religion is also probably a factor. These things could never happen to a god-fearing Christian woman/everything happens for a reason/god will provide and so forth.

          I feel so fortunate that no one talked about it in my office yesterday, at least as far as I could tell.

          1. What’s with Today, today?*

            Yes. My mom was almost raped by her Uncle when I was a toddler, and my grandmother still says he “made a pass at (Mom’s name).” No. He threw her against a wall and left bruises. I don’t speak to my great-uncle.

          2. LilySparrow*

            Yeah, there was a very helpful article on Vox about the attitudes of the 80’s reflected in the movie “Sixteen Candles”. As a 40+ white woman, I can attest that it is very much on point.

            Interestingly, I was brought up in a deeply conservative religious environment, and I recall being shocked that passing a drunk woman around like a blow-up doll was considered funny. But as I got older and more exposed to the world outside my bubble, I was socialized to believe that this was a backwards and “prudish” attitude, while treating sexual assault as a joke was sophisticated and cool.

            Looking back, I think my bubble was not all bad.

    18. blackcat*

      I’m responding to stupid shit with, “I was raped in high school.” and then walking away.
      Perhaps this is unwise.
      IDGAF.
      I am so full of rage I can’t even.

    19. NW Mossy*

      I’ll confess to getting pulled into a discussion yesterday by female colleagues, literally in a locker room! Normally I’m pretty darn good about remaining at arm’s length from politics at work despite being pretty passionate about it in my personal life, but yesterday, I cracked. I shared (professionally, but still) an opinion, and I really really really wish I hadn’t.

      Reflecting, I just don’t feel good about having expressed a political viewpoint at work. There were people on both sides in the discussion, and it probably just left us all feeling more stressed and unhappy than we already were. I’m kicking myself for letting that seep into a space that generally works better when it’s free of it, and I’m going to try to get better.

    20. Lucille2*

      I’ve learned the hard way not to engage. I think it’s important to be honest and shut down the conversation from the get-go. I made the mistake of arguing with a chauvinistic coworker over a debate during the Obama election. I simply lost respect for that colleague as did all the other women in the office.

      The day after Trump was elected, I took it upon myself to shut down an emerging political debate at work. At the time, I was no one’s manager. As soon as I walked into work that morning, two colleagues on opposite sides of the political spectrum started initiating a discussion about our new president-elect. It was obvious by both of their body language that each were ready to take down the other in a heated debate. I simply said to both, “We’re not talking about this at work today. Not a word from either of you.” They nodded, immediately understood I meant it, and backed down. I’m glad I had the confidence to shut it down early, and my colleagues had the respect the keep it out of the workplace. They needed a reminder every now and then to keep it respectful, but it seemed to help. I don’t love mothering my coworkers in that way, but I’ve also taken the keep-my-head-down-and-don’t-engage path which only turns me into innocent bystander when the shit hits the fan. It’s just easier to head it off before things get ugly.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, yep. “Work is my down time from all that.” OR “Sorry, I’m being paid to work. I need to get focused on my work here.” One place I worked I used, “I am here for a very limited number of hours, so I really don’t have much time to discuss any larger issues.”

    21. MusicWithRocksInIt*

      I’ve got two young, male coworkers who sit near me that are very casual and off handed about how they have never voted and don’t plan to start. Sometimes when things like yesterday happen I get so ANGRY at them. I don’t want to start political conversations at work, and don’t want to tell them who to vote for – but dammit I want them to realize how important all of this is.

  5. Too Many Chefs In The Kitchen*

    I work in a company that is run by the sales team. Sales is really what dictates what happens in the rest of the company. I’m baffled as to why, instead of hiring on more sales executives to make more sales, company leadership is focused on hiring Directors for the sales team. We already have four VPs and a President dictating how the sales team is run, with company leadership over them, so I don’t get why they plan to hire on at least two Directors.

    This when the Sales People keep asking for more help because they’re already filled up with their workload and they’re having trouble making additional sales that are being asked when new Sales people could come in to take on more work and more sales. Plus, of course, money is a big factor and all these Directors and VPs have a far larger salary than the Sales Executives who are the ones to make sales and bring money into the company.

    I’m obviously not going to question our team or company leadership, I’m just honestly baffled as to what the plan is. It feels like hiring on multiple captains to a ship when what you really need are more sailors to keep things running smoothly.

    1. Chaordic One*

      I share your bafflement. Maybe they plan to hire more sales people down the road? At my previous employer they did something similar in that they hired a very competent marketing team to increase awareness and advertising of their products. The marketing campaigns were quite successful, but the number of people working in production and fulfillment stayed the same and they became very burnt out and overworked.

    2. Key Lime Pie*

      I work in a very different field than yours, but one where this kind of thing happens systematically. I’m going to do my best to give a constructive answer rather than a cynical one about leadership being out of touch. Basically, when I see this happening here, it’s because people in leadership positions are biased towards seeing problems as leadership problems. So I’m conjecturing that they think your capacity issues can be fixed by good leadership. That might or might not be true, I have no idea. It might also be the case that they know they can’t afford the number of worker bees they need to keep the organization running the way it works now (definitely the case where I am). I’m guessing that they hope that they can bring in a good leader who can help the organization run more smoothly, be more efficient, raise money, build a better team, or whatever.

      1. Rat in the Sugar*

        Yeah, we were seriously overworked in my department for quite a while, and while the BOD wasn’t interested in hiring more management for us, they definitely did not believe us when we told them there was too much to do. I heard through the grapevine that their opinion was that we were “inefficient”. Which was true, we were–because we were too busy putting out fires to ever plan ahead or some up with new/more efficient processes. I can definitely see a company that had the same kind of attitude at the top believing that all the sales department needs is someone to properly organize things and get the employees’ noses back to the grindstone instead of wasting time.

        In my case, it wasn’t until the head of my department left for another job and her boss had to step in for several months that things changed. She was appalled by the amount of work we were trying to process and told the BOD in no uncertain terms that we had too much to do and she was hiring more people for us. For OP: hopefully one of the new managers they put in place will do the same as my grandboss and tell the higher-ups that they just aren’t able to improve it without more people.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I share your pain but in a different way.
      My company is ruled by Marketing not sales. Marketing rules with an iron fist. They have SO MANY people in middle management: marketing strategists, marketing directors, content strategists, demand generation managers, seo strategists, marketing analysts, and whole entire teams of people who just… I don’t know what they actually DO. Yet, even with marketing being such a huge department, you can never get any actual deliverables out of them for six months. Yet they brag how they are “agile.” Ha!

    5. As Close As Breakfast*

      Any chance they are hiring directors with the long term goal being for those new directors to hire on more sales people? Like, they are planning on building up the team in general and hiring from the top down so the new management can choose their own team/people? That is literally the only logical explanation I can think of.

  6. SallyFeathers*

    I have a job interview (panel format) on Tuesday with a specialty department within a much larger company. I just received an email from the HR dept asking me to arrive thirty minutes early so I have time to complete the “written exercise.” I know nothing about a written exercise; I’ve read through the job posting and all my emails from that company and it mentions nothing about it – it just says the first interview will be in panel format and the top three candidates will go on for a selection interview, followed by a background check and drug/fingerprint screening. Should I respond back to the email asking for more details regarding the written exercise, or just go with the flow? 30 minutes isn’t a ton of time so whatever “exercise” it is can’t be that intense, but I don’t want to be ill-prepared. Honestly it feels like I missed a communication from them somewhere along the way.

    1. CaitlinM*

      I would probably respond saying. “Thank you for letting me know. I’ll arrive by x time. Is there any additional information I should have about the exercise so I can be prepared?”

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Honestly it feels like I missed a communication from them somewhere along the way.

        This seems entirely possible. Query, with phrasing that could allow for both “Didn’t you get that email? let me resend” and “No biggie, it’s a standard exercise” where you won’g get more info.

    2. Meg*

      I had a 30 minute written exercise when I interviewed for my current job, and after I moved into a new role I was part of the hiring for that job again. The point of it was to see if applicants could write coherently. (seriously…this last round most of them were gibberish. It was not very encouraging). 30 minutes is a pretty short amount of time, so I would probably guess it’s something along those line.

      Just for background, our writing test/exercise was to read a page or so of text related to the work we do and summarize it in I think a paragraph or so.

    3. AAA*

      That’s an odd one. I once had an interview where they asked me to show up thirty minutes early, which I did, and they sat me down in a room before my interview with a list of all of the questions to review prior to my interview. Then after the in-person interview, they escorted me to a different room where I had to do a writing exercise that was editing a letter that they had previously sent since it was primarily a correspondence-communications type of role. Not sure if maybe you are up for a similar role?

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      This doesn’t seem weird to me or like you missed a communication. It sounds like this IS the communication where she’s telling you there will be a written exercise. I’d just go with the flow; if they wanted to give you advance info about it, they would, and you don’t want to come across as unable to roll with it.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I’d be a little careful with this. “Not smart enough” is a judgement, and it’s not going to come across well. There are lots of types of smart, etc. You need to document specific problems. “Irene hasn’t been able to use X system without assistance after X months. Typically new employees should be able to do this after X weeks, but I still have to show her every time. Irene made Y mistake that will affect Z and wasn’t able to fix it without help.” Then, dispassionately make it your bosses problem. Boss may choose to fire them, or offer extra coaching or whatever, but it can’t feel personal or they’re just going to think badly of you instead of new coworker.

      1. Jenna Maroney*

        Boss has made her my problem, as I’m supposed to be giving her remedial training (to cover up the fact that she never should have been hired OR made it past her probation period)

        1. MuseumChick*

          How long have you been training her for? I think you can go back to your boss and say something like “X weeks/months ago I agreed to give Jane some additional training. I have sen little to no improvement in her accuracy/quality of work/understanding X system. I don’t think there is anything else I can do to help her and I really need to start focusing on Y. Its been put on the back burner while I’ve been training Jane.”

          1. Jenna Maroney*

            I’m the newest trainer, so I’ve only been “training” her for two weeks. Before that I worked with her.

            1. MuseumChick*

              Ok, I would give it another two weeks and then you can say that you have tried for a month but she simply isn’t improving.

                1. samiratou*

                  Then I would document what you did with her and pass that along to the next trainer and wash your hands of it. You did the best you could.

                2. Rat in the Sugar*

                  That sounds like good news to me–surely she’ll be just as useless with the other trainer, too. How well do you know the coworker doing the training? If the two of you could get together after the next two weeks and compare notes, it might force the boss to pay attention if he’s got two different trainers showing him that she’s not absorbing anything. Maybe you could talk to her beforehand and just ask her to keep good documentation? Or it might be better instead to mosy over there a day or two into the training, when there’s a good chance she’s already seen some of the problems, and ask her to document once she’s seen the need.

                3. nonymous*

                  I have one coworker who my boss wants me to crosstrain. I’m not sure if he’s passive-aggressively refusing to participate or if he is genuinely overwhelmed by learning the task on top of his other duties.

                  What I’ve been doing is breaking it up into reasonably sized sub-tasks, sending a “minutes” email to summarize what we did (so that he has the links to references) and making it clear how to get help for that task. I also include action items in the minutes (e.g. “nonymous to give Fergus collaborator access to project by X date; Fergus to open new ticket for HisIssue by Y date).

      2. Chaordic One*

        I’ve had good luck with providing written instructions for employees to follow and most of the time it will help, although at first I have to remind them of where to look on the list of instructions. Of course, this isn’t going to work with someone who isn’t literate.

        1. Jenna Maroney*

          She’s been given all of this. She doesn’t have the initiative to use them/can’t make the connection that she has the tools to solve problems.

          1. Ann Perkins*

            If you answered a question that could be looked up on her own with something like, “This is actually in X manual. Have you tried looking there?” How would she respond?

              1. Ashley*

                Trying asking what the learning style is. Watching someone, reading, doing it and you check/hover, etc.
                Good luck! I have been there. The worst was when I said something and the trainee was clueless. A guy said the same thing and magically they understood.

          2. Amtelope*

            I would suggest alternating breaking tasks down into as simple steps as possible, providing written instructions while training, and then asking her to demonstrate the skills you’ve trained her on and documenting the results. One of those skills should be “determine which instructions to consult for a given task.”

            So: “10/1, trained Jane on how to prepare invoices and reminded her of the location of instructions for this task. 10/2, asked Jane to demonstrate preparing an invoice and reminded her she could consult the instructions if necessary. Jane could not locate the instructions for this task and prepared the invoice incorrectly.”

            “10/3, trained Jane on office maintenance. 10/4, asked Jane to demonstrate steps for requesting copier repairs. Jane said she was unsure what to do, could not identify the relevant instructions for this task, and when prompted to call the repair service, was unsure where to find their phone number until prompted to look in the phone directory.”

            Etc. Either this will help, or you’ll build up the documentation you need to request that she be fired.

          3. Amtelope*

            Also — have you tried leveling with this employee, now that you’re her trainer, and asking her for thoughts about how to solve the problem? Especially if you are thinking that she may need to be fired, I strongly suggest having the following discussion at least once:

            “I’m concerned that you’re still struggling to do X, Y, and Z accurately. For instance, yesterday we walked through how to do X, and I gave you a written instruction sheet to consult. Today, when I asked you to do X, you did it incorrectly, and you said you couldn’t find the instructions. This can’t continue–doing this task correctly is part of your job. Can you think of a strategy that would help you to remember how to do this?”

            And then just wait for what may seem like an uncomfortably long time. If she says “I don’t know, it’s hard and I don’t get it,” keep waiting. Try to get her to come up with at least one idea. She might come up with something that would legitimately help, like color-coding instructions for different tasks (if she struggles to skim text) or making an organized binder of instructions (if she loses them in a pile of papers) or having a visual or video walkthrough of complicated tasks.

            Or she might come up with zero, and you may still have to fire her — but at least you will have given her a chance to take responsibility for solving this problem.

            1. Perse's Mom*

              I’m eternally thankful that if a hire needs this level of coaching, it goes to my boss. I do the best I can, provide the same training I provide to everyone, provide the documentation and tips & tricks, answer the endless questions, and offer pointers where I can. But if it gets to the point of a conversation like this… it’s closing in on PIP territory, and that’s above my paygrade.

          4. Smarty Boots*

            I have this experience with college students. Some people really do not know or understand that they need to take initiative in this way. And they may not be automatically making the connections, or know that they need to. Sometimes you really have to get super specific.

            You can do two things (one or the other, although I think doing both is best):
            1. Be explicit about how to approach problems — do that verbally, and also written as a checklist. You can write it out, but
            2. I find that people learn more deeply if they make the checklist themselves. Then you review it and discuss it with them, and have them revise it. Give the person you’re training cases to solve. Have them work through explicitly saying what steps they will take, what tools they will use, what resources there are, state possible obstacles and how they would address them, etc.

            You may be doing this already! In which case, document what you’re doing and take it to the boss and discuss with the boss.

      3. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

        This. Framing it as “Coworker isn’t smart enough to do the job,” will come across unprofessionally if that’s how you’re discussing it with people, and it’ll inform how you deal with her – contempt and dismissal will be obvious even if you’re correct about her intelligence. She’s having performance issues related to what you’re trying to train her; whether that reflects something profound about her mental faculties isn’t really relevant, or your concern.

        Be as kind and patient as possible with her, document how the training is going as objectively as possible, communicate only the facts.

      1. Jenna Maroney*

        Because I’ve been working with her for three months, and I along with my coworkers think she’s unintelligent.

        1. Youth*

          Intelligence is a difficult characteristic to objectively evaluate. That’s why there’s such a push to move away from standardized testing.

          Regardless of her level of intelligence, though, if she’s not displaying the skills necessary to do the job, you can bring that up. I think Sloan Kittering covers it pretty well above.

          1. Vene*

            I don’t think it’s that difficult. And OP isn’t using standardized testing to evaluate her co-worker’s intelligence. Some people are just less smart than others and don’t get it. They just never will. I don’t think this is a contraversial statement and I find it funny that someone mentioned race – I’m from a country where the population is fairly homogeneous and let me tell you, unintelligent people do exist there and it’s very obvious that some people are smarter than others.

            1. Sloan Kittering*

              I just think there’s so many different types of intelligence, it’s meaningless to say that someone “isn’t smart.” It’s also impossible to accurately measure how all-around “smart” someone is. I’m stupid at math but I have people skills. Am I stupid? It’s just – not a meaningful question. It’s too black and white. They are probably smart at some things and bad at others, just like – everybody. Saying “Elvira can’t use the database without assistance,” isn’t a judgement of how “smart” she is or isn’t, it’s a more practical and useful.

              1. Jenna Maroney*

                She’s not intelligent in any of the ways you need to be to be an admin in a busy, hectic office, then.

                1. Sloan Kittering*

                  I’d still try to say “she’s disorganized, she lost the X files and didn’t send a reminder about Y,” or “she’s not detail oriented, for example she forgot X and Y thing.”

                2. Bea*

                  Management needs to be given all the examples given throughout the topic.

                  Believe me. I couldn’t figure out how to explain this exact same issue in my career. “They can’t do the job?” “How so?” “they’re not catching on!” backwards ways of trying not to say “because they’re dumb AF”.

                  They never believed me. Until I was gone. And they were forced to evaluate them personally. Unsurprisingly, they were quickly fired afterwards because they lived on struggle street.

                  So the advice to give concrete examples and say she’s not able to work independently and has no troubleshooting skills and isn’t able to revisit her notes (if she takes them) or forgets how to reference the procedure docs etc.

                3. Jadelyn*

                  Why are you so focused on making it about intelligence rather than skills? I’m not trying to be adversarial, I just genuinely don’t understand what you think you gain by framing her as unintelligent rather than unskilled/not trainable.

                4. Jenna Maroney*

                  @Jadelyn– probably frustration at my manager for 1. hiring her 2. letting her get past probation period when she clearly isn’t doing very well and 3. trying to make this an issue with the trainers rather than management (see 1 and 2)

                5. NW Mossy*

                  You’re getting the right advice here – it’s critically important that you depersonalize the feedback about your colleague and focus on skills/behaviors, not your overall value judgment of her as a colleague/human.

                  It feels a bit like what you’re looking for right now is validation from someone higher up that your colleague is, indeed, dumber than a box of hair. And maybe she is, who knows? The reality is that vanishingly few bosses would be willing to channel Miranda Priestly and make directly devastating remarks about her lack of intelligence to her face, or yours.

                  To crib a phrase, management is people too. It hurts to tell someone they’re dumb, and frankly, if your boss didn’t feel a major twinge at the thought of doing that, that’s not a boss you want to work for.

                  You’ll have a lot better success if you give management words that are easier for them to say, because you can help lower the barrier to them giving negative feedback to your colleague about specific areas where she’s falling short. It’s way easier (and more effective, too) to nudge them to say things about needing to problem-solve independently, being more accurate, etc. than it will ever be to get them to burn her to the ground with a withering Gordon-Ramsey-esque remark.

                6. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

                  Your tone is really out of step with previous posts you’ve made taking others to task about compassion, I can’t resist pointing out.

                7. Jenna Maroney*

                  I don’t think she’s a bad person, and I don’t really care what happens to her as long as it’s either 1. improves drastically or 2. is let go. I just think she’s unintelligent, lazy, and lacks any kind of self-starterism based on the 3 months I’ve worked with her.

                8. NW Mossy*

                  Lazy, in particular, is a word I’d be very cautious about using with your boss. It doesn’t sound like you know her well enough in a human-to-human way to understand her motivations (or lack thereof), and lazy is inherently a term that’s about motivation.

                  Someone who’s lacking some critical skills and knows it might very well get into a state where they’re somewhat paralyzed. They can’t move forward because they don’t know how, and it’s hard to get up motivation to flail around blindly like a drunk golden retriever and pray that things don’t go horribly wrong.

                  To an outsider, it can look very much like being lazy, but you can’t infer the motivation when all you see is the behavior. It will only be more frustrating for you if you assume that she’s got malign motives, because you’ll feel like she’s performing poorly at you. If you can release this assumption and treat her as if she’s well-intentioned but not suited for the job, that can dramatically reduce your aggro over the situation. I speak from personal experience on this one – it really does work!

                9. nonymous*

                  Be that as it may, she’s the person that management has tasked with a particular set of job duties. Regardless of why she can’t get things done, I’d recommend that you revise your group workflow so that as much as possible whatever she does goes directly to the supervisor. Secondly, if you will need to rework her tasks, make sure that your management knows about it – e.g. “Today I processed 3 invoices for company X and fixed 9 invoices that were incorrectly created”.

                  And if your supervisor continues to ask you to perform training for this person, ask her what can you can drop from your routine tasks. Every place I’ve worked the training has been a special project for the trainer, not in addition to the normal workload.

                10. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  The way to say it in a work-appropriate way is “she seems to lack the critical thinking skills needed to succeed in this role.” That’s how I’d frame it to your boss if you raise it.

              2. Vene*

                Well, research doesn’t agree with the statement that there are many different kinds of intelligence, it’s been shown that the different “kinds” of intelligence correlate with each other. I’ve also noticed that people who are good at one thing are usually good at many other things.

                Of course, people can have different talents, some can sing well, some are good at sports, etc. But those are different talents, not intelligence. I think we can all agree that some people are terrible singers and some are very bad at sports. The same goes with intelligence.

                1. Anonymous for this*

                  Vene – I disagree with your summary of the research. I am a medical professional with training in assessing cognition. There are absolutely individuals with “even cognition” i.e. all of their cognitive domains match on testing (or, as you say, their “kinds” of intelligence correlate). There are also MANY individuals whose cognitive domains show what I call “scatter” — i.e. they don’t correlate. I’m going to use myself as an example (which is not a HIPA violation)

                  I have a full scale I.Q. of 160. I can read exceptionally fast. I learn vocabulary almost instantly. I graduated at the top of my class from undergrad and attended a medical school that you have absolutely heard of with a scholarship.

                  I also have a specific learning disability that makes it very challenging to do basic math. I had to have remediation in order to learn the multiplication table. In order to get the correct answer on an addition problem with more than two digits, I still have to either use a calculator or I have to write it down on paper and then double-check it. My spouse finds it very entertaining to watch me calculate a tip, which takes fully three to five minutes.

                  I am generally regarded as outstanding in my specific medical field. However, you should NEVER EVER hire me as your accountant. I would seem pretty seriously “unintelligent” if I were an accountant (and I *would* be incompetent).

                2. TL -*

                  Uh, being a good musician and being a good athlete both require intelligence.

                  Think of a hockey player – at all times, she needs to know where the puck is, where she is, where her team is, what play they’re running, what the other team is doing and how they’re most likely to respond (that’s 8 people if you assume only one goalie needs to be considered at a time), where she needs to be at and what she needs to be doing to maximize chances of her team scoring and/or the other team being prevented from scoring. Not to mention, she needs to do all this while traveling across the ice at high speed, handling a stick and a puck, listening to her coach and the other players AND reassessing the field pretty much every second. This against a wealth of background information on what her team’s strength/weaknesses are, what the other team’s strengths/weaknesses are, the (very complex) rules of the game, known preferences about the refs, and what kind of ice they’re playing on.

                  Talent is intentionally being able to put the puck into the goal with no one else on the ice. Intelligence is being able to do it while assessing, analyzing, and responding to the game you’re playing in.

              3. Falling Diphthong*

                I was immediately reminded of a letter about an employee who kept messing up details, which were a crucial aspect of that job. Someone had the example of a trial lawyer they’d worked with who was terrible at details, and they had an assistant go over all his paper work to fix things, which was totally worth it to the firm–but that wouldn’t apply to an assistant who was terrible at details and needed someone to go over all his work.

            2. Youth*

              My little sister can’t pay attention for more than five minutes, can’t do most math, and can’t spell correctly or do anything lots of people would normally base intelligence on. She can memorize entire plays and speak really eloquently about topics she’s just been introduced to, though. Some people might say she’s unintelligent. Some people might say she’s intelligent. It all depends on criteria and circumstance, which is why I think it’s so difficult to determine whether someone’s “smart” or not.

              And I say this as someone who ticks off all the normal boxes for “smartness.”

              1. Sloan Kittering*

                Yeah, certainly a finance person would say I’m very stupid, after watching me flail around with number stuff that they find very easy to handle. Then I could turn around and call them stupid when they flubbed a social interaction that required finesse, or if they tried to write a poem. I got happier in life when I stopped being so black and white in my thinking. People have different strengths and weaknesses, that’s all. If this person is a bad fit for their job, they need to go, but not because they are a bad human being.

              2. soon 2be former fed*

                Learning disabilities are a thing and have nothing to do with intelligence. I’m surprised no one has mentioned this already.

                1. Jenna Maroney*

                  I have fairly severe ADHD and I think her attention and demeanor and initiative is *seriously* lacking, for whatever that’s worth.

          2. Voly*

            Part of intelligence is ability to learn new tasks, and solutions to problems based on what you have previously learned. So yes, not being able to learn new tasks does objectively mean that the person has lower intelligence.
            Having said that, people learn things in different ways. Some people are bad at learning new tasks from verbal instructions alone, I am one of those. But by the time we are on our not-first-job, we usually learn how to get around that: part of learning to learn. For me that means making copious notes and making checklists to use while learning. During initial training at any new job, I ask the trainer to slow down, take notes, then summarize them, repeat them back and ask if that was correct. If this person hasn’t learned how to learn, I don’t think there is anything the trainer can do other than suggest that this job is not right for her.

            1. Jenna Maroney*

              She’s been given verbal and written instructions, in addition to having access to all training documentation and the team inbox (which you can look at to check on email formatting, procedure etc). She still doesn’t use any of it, either because she doesn’t think to or doesn’t care enough to try.

                1. Jenna Maroney*

                  And I’ve given her verbal instruction. She can also call/text me with questions.

                  Do you mean like… a video or tape she’d listen to/watch separate of me?

              2. Smarty Boots*

                Assume “doesn’t think to”. Just push “doesn’t care enough to try” out of your head, because it’s only going to make the situation irritating for you, and it can get in the way of coming up with ways to assist or train her.

                Be explicit that she needs to refer to the training documentation. Be explicit that when she needs to send X type of email, she should first look at the team inbox for X examples and then follow the examples. Put yourself in the position of someone who doesn’t think to do these things. What are the things *you* would do? Make that explicit. Maybe she’s not as sharp or motivated as you, but you’re charged with training her so you’ve got to start where she is.

                And if you do that and it still doesn’t work, then go back to the boss, because then it’s boss’s problem. Particularly if boss is making this a “trainers are failing to train” issue — you have to demonstrate that you really did everything that you could to train this person.

                1. Perse's Mom*

                  If she’s anything like the one in my office, she gets distracted on page 2 and then you have to find the page and paragraph where the question is answered for her. Which she will then forget in three hours and ask again.

          3. Duckles*

            They can both be true– to fire her it’s more constructive to give specific examples than to say she’s unintelligent. At the same time, she might be! Intelligence in an office setting usually means “understands quickly what needs to be done and how to do it quickly and correctly, with minimal training”. She might also be disorganized, unmotivated, etc. but that doesn’t change the fact that people who aren’t very smart aren’t as good at a lot of jobs.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          Bea’s advice for saving your own sanity.

          And I’ll paraphrase the “what do you mean unintelligent” advice to “You need a way to describe this in terms of specific skills that she’s lacking.” Like she keeps making the same specific errors, she can’t work independently, she doesn’t pay attention to detail, she makes errors that are expensive in money or in other people’s time. It’s sort of like a vague job description–“should be smarter” isn’t specific enough as feedback to anyone about what she’s doing wrong, what would fix it, or what a better candidate for the position would look like.

        3. Jadelyn*

          I’d strongly encourage you to make this about her skills and lack thereof, rather than something as nebulous as “intelligence” – especially since perceived intelligence is often unconsciously biased along racial and class lines. A lack of skills can be addressed. “Intelligence” in general can’t really be addressed the same way.

          1. Ender*

            This. It does indeed sound like she has below average intelligence in the ways that matter to her job, but actually saying that is just “not done”. It would make you come across as if you have poor social intelligence if you tell your boss that she’s just stupid. Even if it’s true.

            As multiple people have said, you need to give examples to your boss of what you’ve tried and how she responded. You can say “I don’t think she’s capable of learning how to do the job” but you can’t actually say “she’s stupid” even if that’s true.

            In answer to your question it sounds like you’ve tried everything and the only thing left is to make it clear to your boss that she’s just not able for it.

            1. Jenna Maroney*

              I have done this when speaking with my boss. I should have been more specific in my question, I was asking how I approach it with useless coworker, not my boss (who has been proven to have no teeth)

              1. Youth*

                I suppose you could say something to her like, “You know, this job may not be a good fit for you based on X.”

                But even if she agrees, it sounds like you don’t have the authority to do anything about it. You may just need to wait this one out.

                1. Jenna Maroney*

                  Her thing is to blame her training repeatedly. Problem is, she’s the only trainee who is having these issues.

                2. Not So NewReader*

                  @JM but there’s no reply button: Take the trainer excuse off the table. Tell her that this is the training she will receive to do the job. It’s up to her to make the best of it. You could say “many jobs give a person very little information and expect people to teach the information to themselves”. If you wanted to you could branch out into, “What are you working on today to teach yourself?” or “What materials are you reviewing today to help yourself become more familiar with your work?’

                  I dunno, maybe have her keep a hourly time sheet reporting what she is working on each hour so you can review the problem areas with her. This may not fit your setting, though.

                  I would try to neutralize any excuse she leaned on. “We can’t remain trainees forever. At some point, we have to take the bull by the horns and learn the job. The training you have received is the same training everyone else gets. Employers expect us to dig in and learn the material. You need to dig in and start doing this work.”

                  I have seen people say, “You can’t just let other people do your work for you. You have to pull your weight.” This is an extreme but once in a while a person needs to hear this.

                3. TL -*

                  You can tell her, “This is the training that is industry standard. This is the protocol we follow; we’re willing to be flexible (and we have been) but this job requires learning skills on X timetable. You need to find a way to do that.”

                  I have had that conversation with a trainee. It wasn’t pleasant but at least they walked away with a lot more clarity of how they were failing to do their job.

        4. soon 2be former fed*

          Or perhaps learning disabled? People with LDs were commonly labeled stupid or slow before knowledge of these neurological differences increased. Perhaps she needs aural instruction instead of written, or some other similar accommodation.

          1. Jenna Maroney*

            She’s gotten every kind of instruction there is and has access to any info she’d need to do any task.

          2. Vene*

            Or maybe she is just not that bright? Most people are of average intelligence, some are above average and some are below.

    3. Bea*

      Train them as usual and let them ask you the appropriate questions. They sink or swim on their own, you can just give them the tools and knowledge you have.

      I’ve been there. The tips are more targeted at saving your own sanity.

      Stay kind and encouraging.

    4. pcake*

      A few years ago, I had a report who forgot everything we talked about the week before. I was kind and patient, brought him back up to speed, but every Monday was groundhog’s day. He didn’t seem able to understand why his design work had to be done in the way it did, so he’d go back to doing his default designs, which were no use to us. Luckily the company owner knew me so there was no pressure on me to get the guy performing.

      I did bring his immediate supervisor in after the first few weeks, thinking that perhaps the problem wasn’t that the guy wasn’t very bright, but that we had some kind of communication issues. His supervisor and he had an excellent relationship, but ultimately after 12 weeks of “back to square one” every single week, we had to let him go. He was a nice guy, but the work needed to be done.

    5. Holly*

      Document document document. Saying “she is not smart” is not going to cut it. You need to convey to your bosses why your training is not working, to cover your own butt and make sure it’s clear she cannot do the job.

      For example: “I explained to her four times in person and in e-mail that she needs to turn on the blue switch in order to feed the llama. She has continuously pressed the red switch, which causes the llama food delivery system to break down and causes headaches for the rest of the team.”

      “Not smart” is an unhelpful judgment call – saying “she won’t listen to my training” with clear examples is what will be more helpful.

        1. Holly*

          Maybe! That actually lends itself to my example – reporting this matter-of-factly (without saying anyone is “stupid”) should cause supervisors to speak with this person, in which that may come out, and a proper solution (her switching to a different role, or putting a different symbol on each switch rather than relying on color) can come about.

    6. Technical_Kitty*

      I have that co-worker, when he showed up in my very small group with the same title as me, making more money than me, and unable to do the job I flat out refused to train him. It’s highly technical work and requires the ability to be mentally flexible and keep all the disparate balls in the air – lots of thinking for yourself which is not his strong suit.

      He did manage to prove to our boss that he is not able to keep up with our small department, he’s out at the end of the year. Maybe that’s a way forward, let your boss run things through this person so they can get a feel for the issues with them?

    7. Oranges*

      Say “what have you tried?” when the trainee comes to you with something they should already know how to fix/do.

      Also, a bit cynically, is it possible to make her mistakes painful for the person who let her through her trail period? Or who’s responsible for not firing her? Because as a whole people are adverse to firing someone unless they feel some discomfort directly linked to the person’s bad performance.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yep yep yep. If at all possible, don’t take on the pain yourself and let other people off – they have no incentive to help you now, if you’re absorbing the problem and sheltering the problem-maker. Sometimes you MUST make higher-ups feel the problem before they will act, whether that’s hiring new people, fixing a systems problem, or getting rid of a bad employee. Doing it without letting it bounce back on you and make you look bad is an art and a learned skill :P

      2. Jenna Maroney*

        I tried that, she threw the useless employee at me (the newest, least experienced trainer) for remedial training.

        1. Bobbin Ufgood*

          this is why you have to document – sometimes that’s the last step before firing. I worked somewhere that people had to be remediated three times before the actual termination process could start. fortunately, the colleague I saw it happen to quit right before her third remediation. I agree with everybody else — document! with specifics!

    8. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      I’ve had two different times this happened. The first, the woman (Cierce) was in the process of supporting her mother in the last stages of terminal cancer, and had moved up her wedding (which she was also working on) so her mom could see her married before dying. “C” didn’t share any of this with us – she was new to our office but came with glowing reviews from the branch office in another state. I thought she was a mess… and later learned why. So I was glad I was patient with her. She got it just fine later.
      The second time, I learned that “elvira” had a mind like a sieve. Similar to the scenarios others presented, nothing stuck. But she was the EA for the director, and stuck up/protected him very well. Turned out “E” was smoking serious stuff in her car in the parking lot at lunch. (She’s still at the company, I am not). I wrote out the steps and kept sending her back to the documentation binder. And made my exit plans.
      So there can be more than intelligence involved.

    9. Gelliebean*

      When I’m dealing with underperforming co-workers, there are a few things that I’ve found to be very important:
      1 – Keep extensive records in whatever format works best for you. I use One Note for copies of training materials and charts of when each training happened, and Excel to track QA checks on completed work – what account I reviewed; if there was an error, what it was; what date I heard back from the co-worker, and what the result was. I also have general categories of errors to help track overall trends and focus on exactly what the issue is; there’s a difference between problems resulting from someone not understanding policy, and problems resulting from trouble with software/technical skills.
      On the occasions when someone had to be terminated, the manager had my detailed records of each error I reviewed, when it happened, what feedback I gave them and when, and how frequently the error occurred after retraining.
      2 – Get super clear directions from your supervisor on exactly what your responsibilities are toward the trainee. Are you supposed to just report back to the supervisor so they can address the trainee’s progress, or do they want you to continue giving feedback and work with the trainee directly? And similarly, be super clear with the trainee about your expectations and what they should be learning from the training (a particular task, a policy overview, etc.). For new hires and for detailed refresher trainings, I’ve found it helpful to give the co-worker an outline where they can see what will be covered each day and kind of prepare themselves. That’s more useful for extended training schedules, not so important for one-off “we need to go over this one thing that you’re having problems with”.
      3 – Try to find out if the co-worker knows their own preferred learning style. Some I’ve worked with want to watch the trainer work an account step-by-step before they try it, some prefer to have you sitting with them giving instructions as they try it for the first time, some prefer to read over the procedure in advance, etc. I also always give a physical handout that they can take notes on and refer to later.

    10. CMart*

      Just want to say I empathize with your framing of “my trainee is not smart.” Everyone else who’s commented is 100% right that “not smart” isn’t useful and pinpointing more specific issues is the way to go, because you can’t really help “dumb”. You can try to help “disorganized”, “distracted”, “apathetic”, “impatient” etc…

      I recently peer trained the person who was moving into the role I was vacating and I sent several frustrated texts to my husband and bff along the lines of “omg why is trainee so dumb??!?” For him, it was a baffling lack of basic technical knowledge for someone who holds a degree in the subject and a distinct current inability to think critically. At least 4 times a day I was ask “oh, was that not in the process documentation?” and he would respond with “oh idk, I didn’t look.”

      Anyway. I feel your frustration. Try to listen to everyone else’s advice since they’re coming from a much more detached place.

      1. Alice*

        I think there is a different between expectations for a peer trainer and expectations for a capital T trainer. I would be quite disappointed if I knew that a trainer in my org was getting so emotionally involved and frustrated, and would/could not articulate specific skill problems. For a peer trainer the expectations are lower, because you aren’t a trainer by profession.

        1. Jenna Maroney*

          I’m a peer trainer (and a new one at that, with no how-to-train training). I’ve given specific examples to my boss that haven’t just been “she’s dumb” (along with the rest of the training team). I should have phrased my question better as I was asking specifically about the trainer/trainee interactions.

    11. theletter*

      I find that every complex task can usually be broken into smaller tasks, and every job as its elements that everyone but ONE person thinks is horribly tedious.

      If you’re stuck with her, find something you don’t want to be doing that you can delegate to her. Something that you find tedious and repetitive. Teach her to do that, then keep her busy with it for 8 hours a day. Once she masters that, then you can move on to the next thing.

    12. Jenna Maroney*

      Let me put it this way: she’s a receptionist who needs to be repeatedly reminded to answer the phone and check her email.

    13. TardyTardis*

      Carefully, but it can be done. I trained someone I did not think could do it on filling out the proper spreadsheets with the information I needed so it could be processed automatically by the system rather than by my manually inputting the information she would give me more or less in an email. I acknowledged that she might think it was hard, went through the procedure step by step, wrote down the procedures, and said she could call me if she got stuck or didn’t know how to classify something we hadn’t gone over. After two weeks, she had it nailed. My boss was all ‘you got *her* to learn the system and do it properly?’ (and then I later learn the person is a mad genius at sewing and can copy a ballgown after having seen it for two minutes on a movie or TV screen. We all have our talents…).

  8. Can I ask my Coworker if she's leaving?*

    I have a small department, just me and a coworker at my same level, plus my boss. My coworker and I (unfortunately, IMO) tackle every task together and even share an email “so nothing falls through the cracks” – I say this as an example to show you how closely our work is connected. I have reason to believe she has given notice to our boss and grandboss – they had a few closed-door meetings, my boss said she “hoped she didn’t cry” as she went into the last one, and when my coworker showed her screen in a meeting, her gmail showed emails with resumes attached. However, nobody has said anything to me. It’s been a week since I started suspecting – should I ask her what’s up, at this point? Or play dumb and wait for her to tell me, which might not be any time soon.

    We’re such a small team that it seems silly to me to stand on ceremony like this, although I know in large formal offices it would probably be standard procedure. It affects literally every minute of my day.

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Since the department is basically just the two of you, and it’s obvious that there have been closed – door meetings involving your co-worker, I think it’s ok for you to ask her (first) if everything is ok. And then ask (very gently) if she’s planning on leaving. If she doesn’t want to talk about it, don’t press her. You’ll find out eventually.

      2. OP*

        I was thinking of gently asking her today if she has any announcements she wants to share. But I’ll try to live with it if she says no. I get that sometimes there are reasons its better to keep these things to yourself until you’re ready to announce. I will also be pretty embarrassed if she’s getting promoted / married or something, and I was mentally coveting her desk :P

      3. Lucille2*

        I agree about asking her if everything is ok. But I don’t think you should ask if she’s leaving. It’s possible if she is leaving, it’s not a positive departure, or at the very least, she’s not ready to share that news. Possibly because your boss has asked her to keep it quiet until next steps are figured out. Besides, what do you gain by knowing now that she’s leaving (if she is leaving) vs. after it’s made public? If it affects your workload, just quietly prepare yourself for her departure.

        1. OP*

          I know, it’s really just my own curiosity and thinking about upcoming work. Also it’s just feeling a bit weird being the one person on a four person team (counting grandboss) who’s not off whispering. I gave them a week, but now it’s starting to make me twitch!

    1. grace*

      Feel free to send it my way :-)

      I’ve always been a bit jealous of work places that do free lunches – I’ve never worked in one that does, except on special occasions or as a team-building event, etc. But not on a regular basis.

      1. Arjay*

        I used to work at a horrible place, but the one bright spot was that they had subsidized lunches. You could order online from a variety of local restaurants. We’d pay $2-3 for a sandwich or salad and the company picked up the rest of the tab. I still miss those lunches sometimes.

    2. grumpy old man*

      Really? You don’t like CFA? Hopefully the 51 other Fridays in the year they buy something you like.
      My mama would say, “Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.”

      1. Blue Anne*

        I have no idea if I like chik fil a. I don’t want to support the business because they’ve given so much money to anti-LGBT causes in the past.

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        They’re known to be publicly homophobic so it’s not a place that some people feel good about supporting.

    3. Evil HR Person*

      I mean, considering my local Chick-Fil-A has a horrible catering department, I feel your pain. Otherwise, why are you “ugh-ing.” Is that sarcasm? Or are you really upset that your company is feeding you Chick-Fil-A? ‘Cause… well, damn…! I take free food wherever I can get it, and particularly when my employer wants to buy it… *shrug*

      1. Arielle*

        Chick-fil-a has been vocally and financially supportive of anti-gay initiatives and many people choose not to patronize them because of this.

        1. Evil HR Person*

          I get it, I don’t patronize it either. But… free food from the employer. Maybe Blue could talk to whoever is getting the food and ask that they keep the Chick-Fil-A to a minimum??? Instead of just “ugh-ing” to us here. We can’t change the menu. I commiserate but DO something…!

          1. Blue Anne*

            I like my workplace, but I’m definitely already the office’s weirdo goth girl. I’m not going to mess with the Sacred Free Lunch. But I don’t want them supporting that business on my behalf, either. I’ll go home and pick up a sandwich.

            1. Blue Anne*

              Yeah I dunno. It’s weird. Like, my fiance and I jokingly call the church I sometimes attend “Big Gay Church”, it’s so loving and positive on everything. And people here have actually worked for them in the past. They’re not homophobic religious people, just oblivious and I don’t want to fight that fight right now. I need to save my political capital for other issues.

            2. Falling Diphthong*

              In all seriousness, do not mess with the Sacred Free Lunch. People feel very passionately about their expected simple carbs.

                1. Sloan Kittering*

                  But you could absolutely speak the order person and say, “based on CFA’s policies around LGBT issues, would you be willing to order from [other vendor of chicken] next time?” Of course, I find this doesn’t work if other coworker is a fan of CFA and will speak up about loving the food or whatever, but it might be worth a try.

            3. Apple Dumpling Gang*

              Ideally, many people would abstain from eating the free CFA, and they would be taken off the lunch roster because they are not popular enough. Less optimally, if kept on, the order would be scaled back.

            1. Blue Anne*

              Yes. Thank you.

              I would ideally like to be able to vent without eliciting reactions of multiple question marks and “but DO something…!”

              1. AdminX2*

                Speaking as the one who ORDERS the sacred lunches…yeah I know. If there were other loved similar delivery options, I’d switch immediately!!

          4. Alianora*

            We can’t actually affect *anyone’s* workplace, because this is an internet forum. Doesn’t mean no one should ever post here to vent.

      2. Hiring Mgr*

        Not to speak for Blue Anne, but it may be because CFA (or at least the CEO) has a well known anti-LGBTQ stance..

    4. Arielle*

      If you’re saying ugh for the reasons I think you are, I’m with you. It sucks when something that should be as innocuous as a free lunch becomes something you have to take a political stance on.

    5. Bea*

      I had this reaction when I saw at least one NHL team is partnering with that place for their promos. I was annoyed enough with the Papa John’s malarkey before they finally got themselves in too deep.

      I would also just frown upon how obscenely unhealthy the choice is.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yeah, my local MLB team does a thing with them too, I think like if the team steals a base in the right inning you can get a free thing of chicken fingers. Baseball is the thing my grandma and I do together, so I’m at the games all the time and have taken advantage of their other promo deals, but I’ve never taken advantage of the CFA one.

        Same on Papa John’s. I’ve switched to a local pizza place, couple of my tenants work there so I should be supporting it anyway.

        1. Artemesia*

          When the Papa John’s front man explained why he couldn’t pay his workers decently, that was it for us. We used to get pizzas from there because it was convenient but never again.

        2. Bea*

          I’ve honestly never had either. CFA only got to the west coast after we knew they are trash goblins.

          Papa John’s has always been an outlier that I’ve never known a soul to frequent. Why when we have 5 other chains and not in weird dilapidated buildings in the sketchy areas, you know?

          I pledge no allegiance to any easily replaced fast food and I love me some drive thru!

          To make things better. I am in charge of monthly meeting snacks. They come from a local place that donates to the local food banks. Many of us are conscious about where dollars go but others are simply looking budget wise and product wise.

      2. Sharkie*

        This is why I love that my local chick-fil-a is run by a very very nice family who employ a lot of LGBTQ people.
        If you have it Rasing Canes is a great substitute for chicken fingers and you get texas toast!

        1. Bea*

          I mean…they all employ LGBTQ folks…

          It’s about their funds going to strip away rights and regulations at the very top.

          I feel terrible these folks are working for anyone who is not so secretly sabotaging their human rights.

          Lots of POC work for racist scum. Please refer to “I have a black friend.” commentary for further cringing over this idea.

          1. Sharkie*

            Agreed, but its good to know not everyone is horrible and this franchise goes out of its way to support the LGBTQ community/ charities so its a good balance.

            2. Blue Anne*

              I dunno… I mean, a better way to counterbalance might have been to purchase franchise rights for a Subway or McDonalds instead.

              1. Queen of Cans and Jars*

                If they’ve had the franchise for a while, it may have predated public knowledge of their anti-LGBTQ stance. A franchise is a pretty expensive thing to get into, so this may have been the only viable means for them to address it.

              2. Ender*

                Ah you’re bringing me back … I remember when McDonald’s was the evil capitalist scum who used to have their windows smashed…

                How things change, how they stay the same.

        2. DrWombat*

          My coworkers bring Cane’s back sometimes and the smell makes me wish I wasn’t celiac…..I have to eat sometimes at CFA because oddly enough it’s the safest fast food if you have celiac, and sometimes it’s the only option, but as a queer person, I wish I had other safe options on road trips (or that McDonald’s would go back to having GF fries).

          1. Sharkie*

            I feel your pain. I have a lot of friends who are gf by choice and I feel horrible for them when we road tripped from coast to coast. I feel horrible that you are put in that situation :(

        3. krysb*

          I worked for a local Chick Fil-A. While the company on a corporate level is horrible, I have nothing but good things to say about my old store.

    6. Anonymosity*

      I don’t get the love for that place. It’s just another greasy chicken sandwich, nothing special at all, and another CEO with horrible principles.

      1. anon_for_this*

        Compared to many other fast foods, CFA wins in many ways. Their food tastes better, they offer kids an option of a fresh fruit cup, they still have a small play area for the kids, my local one even offers the use of tide to go pens and free diapers (only 1 size so only works in emergency situations), their customer service level far exceeds any other. While I don’t agree with their founders beliefs, they do support many jobs for people.

        1. LilySparrow*

          They have hand sanitizer and disinfecting wipes in multiple places in the dining room. They have placemats with sticky tabs so you can make them stay in place on the table. The doors in the restroom open *out* so you don’t have to touch the handle after washing your hands. If you have mobility issues or kids, they proactively offer to carry your food to your table – you don’t have to ask.

          They put books in the kids’ meals.

          I know politics are important, but they know how to design details into their business model that really work for the customer.

    7. KOKO*

      I have no idea if you’re LGBTQ or straight, and this isn’t directed at you, but more of a general comment from the opinion of one person who is queer: I don’t think straight people have any business in boycotting something that has nothing to do with their rights. I’m so tired of this better than thou attitude to somehow appear as a better “ally”. If you don’t want to eat Chick-Fil-A, that’s more than fine, but humble bragging about not eating it is unnecessary.

      2. ElspethGC*

        Humble-bragging is annoying, but there’s a difference between that and boycotting while making your reasons for the boycott clear – which is the point of boycotts. This queer woman welcomes and encourages straight/cis people standing beside me in fighting for my rights.

        I’d *much* rather they do that than support bigoted businesses/people because “it doesn’t affect me”. I actually think I’d be considering limiting contact with someone who decided not to take action on something just because it limited *my* rights but not theirs. I refuse to patronise places that discriminate against disabled people – I’m not disabled, but I have friends and family who are, and I don’t want any of my money going towards discrimination of people I love. Same thing. If someone is an ally and supports queer activism, why would they *want* to support bigoted businesses?

      3. Alianora*

        What? I’m bi and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with straight allies boycotting homophobic companies. You can think a company’s actions are abhorrent and not want to support them even if you aren’t directly affected.

      4. Starbuck*

        This seems like an extremely uncharitable take on their position, and you DID direct it at them by replying directly to their comment. That’s how that works.

  10. Youth*

    Anyone else here who’s seen Bones? I really like it, but I’m constantly cringing at how unprofessional the staff at the Jeffersonian and their FBI cohorts are. They’re all dating each other and sometimes hooking up literally in the workplace. They have inappropriate discussions about religion, they’re all overly invested in one another’s personal lives, and their supervisors just ignore the many ethically sketchy things they do. And don’t even get me started on Cam, the head of the lab, dating Arastoo, her intern…

    Does this frustrate anyone else as much as it frustrates me?!!

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Ugh, all TV shows with an office staff that are “like a family” (which is the dynamic of most workplace shows) are actually a bad dynamic for real life. It’s compelling on screen because I like to see the characters’ relationships developing over time – it’t not that much fun to watch people behave coolly and impersonally to each other week after week! – but it’s a bad model for an actual office.

    2. Doug Judy*

      Every workplace on a TV show ever is unprofessional in some way. Even the Nine-Nine that is very socially progressive has a lot of boundary crossing that would not fly in the real world. Same goes for relationships on TV/movies in general. What works in fiction isn’t reality. It’s best not to think about it. :)

    3. MeridaAnn*

      Yeah, I had to stop watching that one in large part because of how unprofessional and unacceptable their interactions had become. After a couple seasons not watching, I chanced upon a new episode and allowed myself to watch… only for the episode to be about the murder of Hodgins’ ex, where he had plenty of motive and should have been one of the primary suspects, but when this was brought up, he just shrugged it off and continued to do the forensic tests for the case. Like… NO? That’s not how this works?

      It’s not just Bones, either – I struggle with a lot of TV shows based on the characters’ awful unprofessional behaviors. My friends keep trying to get me to watch The Office with them, and I find it far too cringe-worthy to tolerate watching it, even knowing that it’s meant to be satire [mostly? maybe? I’m actually not always convinced they know how awful their content is, since Michael is eventually supposed to be a sympathetic character who just *really cares* about the people he is awful to (???) and the only people who started out seeming semi-reasonable (Jan and Ryan) apparently went completely off the rails over time, sooo…?] That’s obviously one of the worst offenders, but there are plenty on the air that are just too unprofessional for me to enjoy.

      1. Youth*

        I just watched that episode the other day! The entire time I was watching it, I was so confused why he wasn’t getting pulled of the case for conflict of interest!

        I didn’t like The Office, so I can’t say much about that because I didn’t watch it. But the few episodes I’ve seen were the worst.

      2. Myrin*

        I think that’s the crux of TV shows starring adult characters. In general, adults spend a lot of time at work. However, TVs shows generally aren’t documentaries on regular people’s boring workdays, they want to show interactions and relationships between characters. But to do so successfully, the characters have to spend a substantial amount of time together. So, with adults, that means you’ll almost inevitably have to make them coworkers. The only other scenarios where you can get the same amount of physical proximity without having people work together is when you have them living together/right next to each other, or maybe something like “these people all meet at the same bar every day after work and spend hours there”, but even then it’s probably still less time a day than the time you spend at work. I honestly think it’s a lack of creativity in general or rather maybe, the simplest road to take, exposition-wise.

        1. Youth*

          Yeah…but it’s just such lazy writing! Honestly, everything that happens in Bones could still happen and not be so irritating as long as there were consequences.

      3. river*

        The Office is supposed to be unbearable, it’s a show about dysfunctional people in a dysfunctional office. It’s “cringe humour”. The only reason they make Michael somewhat sympathetic is to soften it a touch. The original (British) version has no sympathy for the boss at all. It really is unbearable. Cringe humour is not for everyone.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’m a few seasons behind, but yes, I’ve seen most of it. I like it, but I deliberately don’t consider/think about the things you’re describing. If I did, it would drive me nuts.

    5. Linda L*

      I love the show because it’s fiction, but yes, they are all completely off the rails professionally. On the other hand, who wants to watch a show about realistic work life?

    6. Dust Bunny*

      I used to watch it a lot but stopped years ago because of this and because Bones is such a Mary Sue. I remember one episode where she said she liked to people watch because “I’m an anthropologist”. You’re a forensic anthropologist, not a cultural anthropologist! Which doesn’t mean you can’t like to people-watch, but it’s not your discipline!

      1. Grits McGee*

        I had to stop watching because she is such a terrrrrible cultural anthropologist, despite representing herself as one.

        It also doesn’t help that (at least while I was watching it) when it came to Bone’s cultural relativism perspective and Booth’s traditional Christian heterosexual perspective, the latter always won out. The victim with the non-standard lifestyle always died because of their crazy, non-standard lifestyle.

      2. Zweisatz*

        Ha, the Mary Sueness of her husband finally drove me off. There’s only so many doors I wanna see kicked in by Rambo when I’m watching a show about solving physical evidence riddles.

    7. Camellia*

      Yeah, I enjoyed the first couple of seasons but stopped watching after they started up all the relationship stuff. I don’t need THAT kind of drama in my life, I just want to see cool crime solving.

    8. Bea*

      I rarely experience frustration over fiction not mimicking reality close enough. If I want reality, I watch documentaries.

      But I come from small businesses where boundaries are viewed as silly suggestions so my world is already tainted it’s not that outrageous.

      1. Ender*

        Yes I don’t get posts like this. I seem to see a lot of people nowadays commenting both here and on other sites about how morally bad fictional characters, or storylines are – Ross gellar being a good example. It seems like people genuinely are annoyed by fictional Characters behaving in inappropriate or unethical ways. I always think “wow its almost as if it’s a fictional TV show and not a documentary.”

        Sarcasm aside – I have been wondering lately – would it be in any way possible to produce a good drama or comedy show where everyone behaves ethically and appropriately at all times? I really think that would be incredibly boring to watch. But I’m open to having my mind changed. Has anyone ever seen a good show where no one does anything unethical or inappropriate?

        1. Youth*

          I don’t necessarily think they need to behave appropriately or ethically–I just think it would be better watching if there were consequences for their actions instead of everyone acting like the way they’re acting is fine.

          I’m not a fan of characters who never do anything wrong. I too think they’d be incredibly boring.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I think the issue was more that they portrayed Ross as a great choice for Rachel to end up with (and really got the audience rooting for that), and never seemed to acknowledge in any substantive way how much that wasn’t true. So it promotes/reinforces unhealthy attitudes.

          1. Ender*

            If people are basing their attitudes to romantic relationships on sitcoms then they’re probably doomed anyway.

            But that’s not what I’m getting at – I’ve seen lots of posts about how awful Ross is and while some take issue with Ross being portrayed as Rachel’s true love, lots of the comments don’t seem to be just angry about how he was portrayed as ultimately a sympathetic character, they seem to be genuinely angry that he wasn’t a nice person. I’ve seen comments on here about how awful all the friends characters are (and Rachel wasn’t much of a catch either and did some pretty awful things too – in fact she was trying to sabotage Ross and Julie long before the sub-par writers of the later seasons made Ross into an asshole).

            I think it started with an article that was written (and widely copied) about how Ross actually wasn’t such a nice guy and Rachel shouldn’t have quit her job for him, which is fair comment, but it’s degenerated into “how awful it is that fictional characters don’t behave ethically all the time”, which just makes no sense. They’re fictional.

            There are people above on this very post complaining about how characters on the office aren’t behaving rationally and following proper procedure. That’s literally the entire point of the show! It’s like people just don’t understand the difference between truth and fiction anymore.

            Anyway I realise that by complaining about people complaining about fictional characters I am becoming a parody of myself so I shall end my rant now.

    9. Enough*

      As we say in our house ‘It’s television.’ As it’s not real life and you can’t expect it to reflect reality. And much of the technical is more fiction than science.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I think different things ping different peoples’ eye rolls. Like I’ll roll with the one medical examiner in the city, who also delivers all the forensic evidence to the police detectives, as a way to convey those aspects of the plot in a way audiences enjoy. But I HATE that the grown teens are never allowed to leave for college.

        1. Youth*

          Yeah. I think for me, the issue is that this isn’t a show like Psych, which is built on the idea of the department being dysfunctional enough to hire a psychic consultant. Psych can do whatever it wants, and I’ll suspend my disbelief. There’s always a death at the turning point of every episode, and I just go with it because that’s how the show works.

          Bones, on the other hand, is actually otherwise pretty reasonable in its portrayals–I feel like it makes FBI/investigation work look not very glamorous, which I think is a perspective we need more of. So maybe I come down harder on the show because I feel like it’s trying to reach a higher standard.

    10. Time for a gnu name*

      It never frustrated me when I watched it – but I wasn’t a frequent, regular reader of this site then and all the things you mention would definitely make me cringe now!

    11. Rusty Shackelford*

      To me, suspending disbelief has to start with Cam’s outfits. I mean, she looks like she’s going to a cocktail party.

      (Also, Criminal Minds, where a whole team of profilers also do a SWAT-style raid on a suspect’s apartment… ha ha ha ha NO.)

      1. Youth*

        Ha ha ha. That reminds me–I also am horrified at Angela’s super-non-professional outfits. But yes, Cam is on the opposite end of this: super overdressed most of the time!

      2. state government jane*

        One time I saw her wearing a dress I got to wear to a wedding! Definitely not a cocktail dress… but I felt glamorous for two seconds all the same. :)

    12. WellRed*

      I used to like it, but it got ridiculous. Pretty sure a scientist with the government is not going undercover with an FBI agent as circus performers.

    13. K8 M*

      I gave up on Bones several seasons ago. As a scientist, I just couldn’t tolerate the absolute lack of any realistic portrayal of forensic science. Plus the show became completely formulaic. The second person they talk to in relation to the case is the guilty one. You’re welcome.

      1. river*

        The first season or so of Bones was based on the books written by Kathy Reichs, so the characters and storylines were pretty good. Then they ran out of material and the writing was done by the usual tv writers who write the usual tv stuff and it went downhill. Sad, because I liked the main character, but oh well.

  11. Help*

    Grandboss is a micromanaging, control freak. I don’t even have permission to modify anything in spreadsheets and databases, yet he gets upset if the work isn’t done. I have tried to schedule meetings to find out what he wants, but he either cancels or never shows.

    I just want a job where I work and don’t have someone constantly monitoring me- literally standing behind me watching me and my co-worker do the work. They also talk down to us- it’s getting old.

    I need to get out of this job, but what reason do I give for leaving? Should I focus on the management style or the fact that I can’t access the resources needed to do my job? Or both?

    1. CaitlinM*

      I wrote the below response thinking that you were asking about giving a reason in an interview. Now I’m thinking you are talking about an exit interview. I’ve seen here to be very careful of being candid in exit interviews, as they can burn bridges. Improving their processes and culture after you leave isn’t really your job. It doesn’t benefit you professionally and can actually harm you.

      I have never been asked why I’m leaving my current job in a job interview. But if I were I’d say I wanted a new challenge. Don’t focus on negativity in a job interview–you don’t want your possible future employer to think you’re going to go bad-mouthing them if you leave.

      1. Help*

        This is for interviews. I’ve been at my position for 1.5 yrs and interviewers will ask why I want to leave my current position.

    2. NotAParalegal*

      I would say something like- I’ve learned a lot at x company and developed my skills in a,b,c and am looking to take on additional responsibility/develop new skills/further develop my expertise in ____, etc. I wouldn’t mention either of your reasons for leaving.

      If you are referring to an exit interview, I would say it is highly dependent on what you know of your company. I knew that my last job didn’t really act on information provided in those, so declined to get into any details. I simply said I was seek opportunities for growth, which they were unable to provide.

    3. Ama*

      When I was trying to leave a job where the work environment was a problem I tried to focus any “why do you want to leave” answers less on the job I was leaving and more on the type of job I was trying to move into. So instead of saying I was tired of a job where I had far too many different areas I was responsible for, I said “I’m looking to move into a position where I can really focus on X” and instead of saying I was tired of a job where everything was an urgent crisis all the time, I said “I find I succeed in environments where proactive planning is valued and I’m looking for a position where that’s a crucial part of the role.”

      It worked really well for me — now I’m in a job where I am in charge of one particular program within a broader organization, and I spent most of this week writing up project timelines for 2019.

    4. JHunz*

      Maybe something like “I’m looking for positions with more opportunities for independent contribution.” It leaves your problems nonspecific, but with the ability to read for them between the lines.

  12. Anonygrouse*

    Posting here because I know my colleagues and friends would look at me like I had a llama for a head if I shared this! I am leaving for a big vacation next week — traveling literally halfway around the world and will be out 2.5 weeks. I’m definitely excited… but for the first time ever, the thought of missing work is making it almost a little bittersweet? I had only toxic workplaces for the first 8 or 9 years of my career, so I always counted down the hours to any time off. But my current job has been a dream so far (18 months in — finally have stopped constantly bracing for the other shoe to drop), and I am going to miss my projects, my coworkers, and our boss. I will also be missing a big rollout that I did a lot of work on but don’t need to be around for the actual release of, and I’m pretty bummed. I even started to get sad that I’m going to miss our division-wide staff meeting, and those are inevitably the most boring 60 minutes of the month. It’s a quality problem to have, but it feels so strange!

    1. Blue*

      I…truly cannot imagine this, even though I like my job fine. But I think focusing on how excited you are for the trip and the specific things you can’t wait to do/see/eat is probably your best bet! Having an amazing trip and not being bummed about going back to work afterwards is pretty much the best of both worlds. Hope you have a great time!

    2. OhGee*

      That’s a great problem to have and I hope you have a fantastic vacation! Returning is all the sweeter when you actually like your workplace.

    3. Emily S.*

      Try to be grateful for the opportunity to take this amazing trip.

      It’s a big adventure! You will probably really enjoy it. And it’ll feel good to know that you have a great job to come back to.

  13. FaintlyMacabre*

    Yesterday, I found out that one of my co-workers is planning on retiring in the next few months. I am interested in the job and am trying to figure out my next steps. I looked at the job description and there is nothing in it that I feel is out of my reach. However, I heard about the position from a coworker who seems to think it is a lot more technical than what I currently know (but this has to be taken with a grain of salt, because coworker is also a relative of mine and takes joy in squashing dreams. New position would put some distance between me and them, which I desperately need. I have been looking at other jobs.)

    My plan, I think, is to talk to retiring coworker and find out more about the job, and then approach my manager if I’m still interested. I’m a little worried that they won’t want me to move positions, as the job I currently do can be hard to hire for. I don’t want to lay my cards on the table- is there a gentle way to say, “Look, I’m looking to leave this position one way or the other and I think it would be nice to stay in the company”? I also don’t want to throw coworker/relative under the bus, but… they are the main reason why I want out (and trust me, I would not have taken the job with relative had I not been desperate. I was well prepared for all the ways it was going to suck, but not the severity of the suckiness.)

    1. Utoh!*

      Nothing wrong with finding out more about the position and if interested letting your manager know. Leave coworker/relative out of it. No one but you knows whether you can do the role or not, and who is to say that anyone could just step into it without training? Nothing wrong with moving one, regardless of the reason why.

      1. FaintlyMacabre*

        Unfortunately, I already mentioned to relative I was interested. If I talked to manager or retiring coworker about it, the news would get back to relative one way or another. And naturally, in the ten minutes where we overlapped, relative has already been saying things about how maybe relative should apply for the job. Sigh. I so wanted to say “As long as it gets you out of my hair, I don’t care who gets the job!” It’s a good sign that I need to move on, one way or the other.

        1. Smarty Boots*

          You don’t need to say anything more to relative about this job. Not one word. Bland redirection, that’s what you want to aim for when interacting with this “delightful” person.

    2. Blue*

      I agree with Utoh! Absolutely no reason to mention *all* of your motivations for considering that role. If your boss has generally been supportive of your career development in the past, I don’t think you need to strongarm him into letting you switch out of your current position – just focus on making the case for why the new role would be a great fit for you. If you feel like you have to force the issue a bit and you’re not concerned about letting him know that you’re looking, I don’t think you need to explicitly say, “If you don’t consider me for this, I’m leaving the company.” Something like, “I’ve been thinking that it’s time for a new challenge, and this seems like an ideal opportunity,” should tip him off.

      But yes, definitely talk to the retiring coworker first! You might find that the job actually sounds terrible, in practice, and not worth pursuing further.

    3. Artemesia*

      I’d sit down with the manager not the person leaving. Find out what the plans might be and what you can do to strengthen your position for possible promotion. It is delicate to broach that you may leave anyway because you have outgrown the current job, but I would want to hint that you feel you have come as far as you can in this role and are looking for a new challenge. And as this firms up and you know the time line, start also looking outside this organization for options so you have some choices when the time comes.

      1. Which graphics program to study?*

        I think I need to buy the software, and teach myself, a graphics program but am not sure which one. I’m a technical writer and have been out of work for [ahem] months (just got a great contract a couple of days ago, I start Monday! Yay!) and notice a trend with tech writer jobs — employers want some graphics capability. Some job listings list Adobe Illustrator or Adobe InDesign. I think there’s another one or two that I can’t remember right now. I very rarely see Photoshop or Corel Draw. I looked up Illustrator and InDesign and they’re different animals — one is more graphics-oriented and the other notice that the Adobe products have a “$9.99 a month” deals and that sounds like a good thing, I think, for my purposes but maybe there’s a catch somewhere. Any and all advice much appreciated!! Thanks.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Obviously I don’t plan on staying in this particular role forever, but I really would like to stay with Sucracorp, and this position sounds like a good next step.”

    5. FaintlyMacabre*

      Thanks to everyone who has suggested framing it as “professional development”, not “my relative is driving me bat guano insane.” This is a field I am interested in anyway, so talking to retiring coworker about their skills and the field could be helpful. In the meantime, fingers crossed!

  14. Bee's Knees*

    The past couple of weeks in the newsroom have been bananas. Either I’ve been taking crazy pills or everyone else has. I can’t tell anymore.

    1. Evil HR Person*

      Aww… it’s too bad you haven’t had a chance to keep us abreast of the shenanigans! But… have fun!!

  15. The Photographer's Husband*

    I posted last week on the ‘Salary Negotiations’ Ask the Readers post and just thought I’d give a quick update to what happened in my Annual Review.

    The gist, is that my director showered me with lots and lots of praise, but not so much with cash. I only got half of what I asked for (5% instead of 10%). However, my director was very understanding of what I asked for and said that she thought it was a fair ask considering the ways I’ve contributed and grown in my role.

    She went back to our General Manager to see if they could do anything to increase my raise, in which the GM said to follow up in January and he might be able to make an adjustment then. So there’s still some hope. Mostly though, I am proud of the negotiating I did do, and very grateful for my director’s support and advocacy. It’s pretty clear that they highly value my contributions and want to keep me around, there were just some extenuating circumstances that depressed my raise this time around. Overall, I am pretty happy with how things went :-)

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Good for you, at least you know you’ve pushed for as much as they’re willing to give, which is valuable information. If you don’t push, you risk leaving something “on the table” – so now you know you didn’t.

      Heads up, after receiving less than the raise I wanted, I also had to deal with my boss feeling like he “gave me a big raise last year” so he was actually LESS willing to work with me this year – just keep an eye out for that, hopefully it doesn’t happen to you.

  16. Meredith Brooks*

    I hate my career. (I have for over 10 years) I’m contracted to work at my current company for another 10 months. It’s unlikely that I’ll be able to transfer out of my department. A little bit of my soul dies every day.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      What do you have going on outside work? Do something you enjoy. Doesn’t have to be huge. Work isn’t your entire life.

    2. Doug Judy*

      I hear you. I hate my current career and have been trying for a long time to get out into something that’s a better fit. It is soul crushing to feel trapped. With ATS and other things, it’s hard to convince someone to even interview me, let a lone hire me. I have a very promising job that I am having interview #3 for on Monday. It’s gone very, very well so far but I’m waiting for the “We loved you but we went with someone with more direct experience” because I have seen this play out. But I am going to keep trying my best and hope someone takes a chance on me.

      Do you know what you want to do instead? That for me was the biggest step. I knew what I didn’t want to do, and it took me some time to figure out what I did want. Once I figured that out I started exploring job descriptions, even if I didn’t apply to see if I had any transferable skills, or adding some projects if I could to gain experience.

    3. Meredith Brooks*

      I completed my Masters degree last year, but unable to use it yet. I know what I want to do, whether or not someone will hire a 40-year-old rookie remains to be seen. But, I’m networking. In the meantime, I’m actually in the process of figuring out what I enjoy doing. I’ve been doing things I don’t enjoy for so long, I’ve forgotten the things that I like!

      1. Doug Judy*

        Ha! You sound just like me. I’m 37 and finished my Mater’s last year too! I found my current opportunity by networking, so keep up reaching out to your network, and be super honest. If there is someone you connect well with in grand school, they could be a good resource.

        How I came to figure out what I wanted to do, I looked back on my prior roles and thought about anything about any of them I did like, and what they had in common. It lead me to see that I really enjoy connecting one on one with people or in a small group. So then I started looking at jobs that had those elements. Good luck, and try to find things outside of work that you do enjoy, volunteering, friends, family, and take time for self care.

    4. The Rain In Spain*

      One thing that really helped me when I was in a similar situation- I decided to quit and make a change. I knew months in advance that I was going to quit (was waiting for better timing for my team, and also to allow some funds to vest). It made it so much easier to let things just slide right off- things that used to drive me INSANE or make me unreasonably angry just didn’t bother me anymore. I got my work done, put in my notice, and walked away.

      If you’re going to change career paths after your contract is up, consider taking some relevant courses, volunteering, going to networking events, creating a larger financial cushion for job hunt, etc. Use this time to prepare for the change, and then start looking for a job a few months before your contract is up!

      If you’re going to stick with this career path, I echo advice others have given- treat it as just a job, not a means for life satisfaction. Just go in, get your work done (and only work for the time you’re paid/a reasonable schedule), and try to just let it go. Finding fulfillment outside work may be helpful- whether that’s volunteering, playing sports, taking up a hobby you love, hosting a dinner club, etc.

      1. AnonEmu*

        Currently kind of in that mindset. As soon as I can find a new job, I’m gone. Knowing that there is an escape valve in the future helps a lot.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      10 months actually goes by pretty fast. Keep yourself busy and begin looking 3-5 months before.
      Even if you hate it, it’s really not the long in the larger picture of things.

  17. Toxic waste*

    Grandboss loves to mansplain. Any tips for dealing with someone like this without losing my cool/inadvertently getting myself fired?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      It’s really tough when they’re senior to you. They are arguably expected to be more experienced and knowledgeable about most things – that’s why they’re Senior Director or whatever – so you have to take a lot of this on the chin, unless it’s an area you have specific deep experience with: for example, being a member of your own gender which he’s not, being a member of a specific ethnic minority when he’s not, or possibly a niche of your work area (like you are database manager and he’s explaining how a database works – but I’d probably still tread pretty lightly on being all *I KNOW.* (Yes, I have had senior men try to explain to me, a young woman, what its like to be a young woman in our industry. I grit my teeth and bore it).

    2. BadWolf*

      Sometimes I interrupt with the conclusion. I mean, it’s kind of rude, but in a work scenario, it could be viewed as “you can save time and skip this part.”

      Like:
      Him: So to make the teapot glazing smooth–
      Me: You have to following the AMC process, yes it works well.

    3. Alternative Person*

      My recent go to has been tuning out anything I don’t need and smiling blandly. I start thinking about that video of the dancing Eevees I saw recently and just float along for a few minutes.

    4. Holly*

      I agree with Sloan Kittering – since it’s a grand boss who likely DOES have more experience, despite how condescending he might be, you may just have to suck it up. I’d recommend any sort of mindfulness practice so you can detach yourself emotionally and just think “I’m going to let this roll right off my back and proceed.”

    5. Maggie*

      I found out one of my coworkers – who mansplains – is actually trying to clarify his misunderstanding of a problem. I just happen to be the one who works with him most as well as the only woman on the team. The last example was him explaining to me why something I asked him to fix wasn’t working – which clearly I knew in asking him to fix it. It turns out he was trying to ask *how* to fix it, since the reason it wasn’t working was predicated on very strict logic. So I don’t know in your case if you’re just bringing something up (i/e oh, I love soccer!) and him explaining offsides to you (it’s cherry picking! ……ugh), or like in my case where you’re saying, as in the other comment, “the teapot glazing is not coming out quite as smooth” and he’s explaining that process to you?

      For the most part in my case I simply say “yes, that is the problem” or “yes, I understand that, which is why I suggested…” quite a lot, or even simply “yes”. I’ve also used it as a teaching moment about mansplaining to other coworkers who don’t deal with the fairer sex that much, or get outside of their bubbles. It’s not *exactly* mansplaining since he does it to everyone else, but it’s a great example of the act.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        If it wasn’t a boss, I would absolutely say to a colleague (maybe even a slightly senior coworker) something like, “I’m the database manager, so I’m a little confused why you feel like you have to explain what a database is to me. I think I’ve got a pretty good handle on it, with my five years of experience.” Which might give them the opportunity to say, “oh whoops I’m actually trying to ask you about databases, my bad” (or not, they’d probably just huff, but at least I’ve made my point). With a grandboss, though, I probably wouldn’t stick my neck out.

    6. FaintlyMacabre*

      I think the advice for annoying people who can’t/won’t change may apply here- observe them with scientific detachment. How often do they say, “well, actually?” Make a bet with yourself about how long they take to explain something that should only take about ten seconds.

      I tried this advice at a family gathering (they put the dis in dysfunctional) and it was fun to guess who would make the first critical remark and to pretend like I’m observing some unmannerly tribe of animals. It really helped make what is otherwise draining and unpleasant somewhat amusing.

    7. state government jane*

      You may find some helpful tips in the Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace podcast, if podcasts are your thing! It’s a relatively new show, but I’ve already got some really great strategies in my back pocket thanks to them. I think they have an ep on mansplaining I haven’t gotten to yet.

  18. Emma*

    Update: My streak of being ON FIRE continues with now 5 possible job opportunities. I have a phone screen with one of them coming up. It’s a position I’m really excited about (research, write, & talk about ponies all day) although the pay & location won’t be ideal. I recently took a look at the organization’s glassdoor page and saw some really concerning reviews that went beyond the typical minor grumblings that tend to show up on nonprofit glassdoor pages. Things like frequent harassment of female staff, reviewers calling for specific members of leadership to resign and an overall toxic office culture. These were recent reviews too, and there was a consistent pattern throughout. I’m not sure what to do… Cancel the call and run away screaming? Ask about the troubling reviews during the call? Say nothing and try to suss things out for myself during the interview process?

    1. Youth*

      I’d keep the call for interview practice, but if you’re certain you have no interest, yes, you should feel free to ask about the troubling reviews and see what they say. Nothing to lose, right?

    2. OhGee*

      I think it’s worth following through with the call and being very, very observant for red flags. It’s good practice, if nothing else, and it might confirm those concerns, or assuage them. (My current employer is a small nonprofit that is moderately grumbleworthy, but there is a former employee who was the office bully and went on a public defamation campaign against management/the organization in general after they were finally fired, so I find value in but am cautious about the value of glassdoor reviews.)

  19. Amber Rose*

    Due to health… things, I’m anemic. Due to a sudden unforeseen mauling of my head, I lost even more blood and my left eye isn’t working quite right. My eyebrow is split.

    I feel like hell and my work is suffering mistakes and I’m dizzy/nauseous and this is the worst Friday. So please allow me the following gossipy speculation for fun.

    A long time staff member was suddenly fired from our sister office. There’s been much hushed whispering and comments like, “why did she think we wouldn’t notice that amount?” And “maybe we should combine their books with ours.”

    I’m guessing fraud or embezzlement. Right? I can’t ask, I’ve been bluntly told to stay out of it. Which sucks because then I hear stuff like “read this, you’ll shit bricks!” between boss and accountant.

    I can’t stand it, I’m so curious. I hate being left out. *sulk*

    1. Murphy*

      Ouch! I’m so sorry about the cranial mauling!

      I’d be curious too. We had a “secret job interview” one day, and even though I knew it wasn’t my business, I really wanted to know! (I think I figured it out later, and it wasn’t even all that interesting.)

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yeah, it sucked. It could have been worse though. And I seem to be healing OK.

        My boss has been training the replacement remotely over conference call, with a remote desktop viewing program. The accountant is trying to figure out how to help even though US and Canadian taxes are really different. And I’m trying to sort out their insurance, which is a nightmare.

        The drama bomb sure landed this week.

    3. PB*

      I’m so sorry about the health problems! The mauling especially sounds awful.

      Fraud or embezzlement are definitely possible. It could also just be garden variety incompetence or mismanagement.

    4. Anonymosity*

      Oh no! I hope you’re okay.

      I totally understand the URGE TO KNOW. You have now gifted us with it, so if/when you find out, please return and share. :3

      1. Amber Rose*

        I’m more or less OK. I look like I fought a bear and lost, but most of the scratches are shallow. The eyebrow and two gouges on the side of my head are the worst of it. It’s hard to treat cuts through hair.

        If I ever hear what actually happened, I will post an update for sure! Right now all I know for sure is that the person was away unexpectedly for a few days, they had to access her computer, and whatever they found was not good.

      2. Amber Rose*

        Update: She was stealing. The cops were called earlier this week.

        I don’t know the details but my boss called it a kick in the balls so I’m guessing it was going on a while.

      3. TardyTardis*

        This reminds me of the time a longtime, valued co-worker Left Suddenly. After some mystery, I got the gist which was when running a side business, do not use the company’s computer. Especially a side business that I got the feeling was a Tad Hinky.

    5. Girl friday*

      I just wanted to address the anemia real quick, and say to try nuts and sunflower seeds. They help with nausea and anemia. IDK why they have iron but they do! You can put them on top of oatmeal, which also has iron. Or you can roll peanut butter and chocolate chips with oats and freeze them or refrigerate them. Good luck feeling better!

      1. Amber Rose*

        Shhhh. My husband treated me to a steak dinner last night and I’m trying to make a case for more red meat. ;)

        Just kidding. I actually didn’t know that, and I adore sunflower seeds. I’ll see if I can pick some up at lunch.

            1. No imagination*

              Do you like clams? They are super high in iron – something like six clams gives you the recommended daily iron intake.

        2. Nita*

          Hey, steak is good too! My doctor always tells me to eat more red meat when I get anemic. I’m more than happy to tell my husband those are actual doctor’s orders, for real, so don’t forget to get some steak on the way home :)

    6. Someone Else*

      If you haven’t already, please have a medical professional confirm you don’t have a concussion.

  20. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I’m going to be talking with Jolie Kerr of Ask a Clean Person for an upcoming episode of the AAM podcast. If you have questions for her about cleaning and work, leave them here and we’ll talk about them on the show!

    1. Kowalski! Options!*

      Does she also do organization, in addition to cleaning? Because if she does…and if she has any tips and tricks for people who work from home (beyond “use lots of Post-Its” and “buy a filing cabinet”) personally, I’d be grateful.

    2. Annie Moose*

      One thing that comes to mind for me: what’s a reasonable expectation for cleanliness in an office? I guess I’m mostly thinking of this from the perspective of an employee (e.g. our cleaning folks empty the trash cans and vaccuum the floor, but don’t dust or wipe down desks), but it’d also be interesting to hear from an employer perspective (what you expect your employees to do/be responsible for).

      Oh, and cleanliness in the context of hotdesking! To me, it seems if you’re ever sharing a desk (or even a cubicle/office) with anyone else, you have a much higher expectation to keep things neat, but should you be wiping down the desk? The phone? Making sure you don’t leave any loose paperclips on the desk??

      1. zapateria la bailarina*

        yes, THIS. our cleaning person empties trash cans but no one vacuums/sweeps/mops/etc. i honestly think our office has never been vacuumed. ever. someone cleans the bathrooms once a week and we are frequently left without paper towels for a day or two before they are replaced. it’s super frustrating and complaints have gotten us nowhere.

      2. Magenta*

        I have just set up our cleaning contract for a 20 person office in the UK.
        The cleaners do pretty much everything, empty the bins, vacuum the carpet, wipe all surfaces including desks, phones, cupboards and windowsills. Gather up missed mugs and glasses, empty the dishwasher, clean the kitchen. They also throw away out of date food and clean the fridge on a Friday.
        The employees are responsible for putting their stuff in the dishwasher when they are done with it and switching it on before they go.
        I think it is reasonable for people to do more than I ask, but to be honest most of the time things don’t make it to the dishwasher without me having to nag so it makes life a lot easier and the environment much more pleasant to ensure it is done by the cleaners.
        I deliberately chose a company that pay well over minimum wage because it means the cleaners are pleased to be here, do a great job and are likely to stay with us.

    3. Holly*

      I’m struggling with getting organized because I’m so busy at work that I struggle to find the time it will take to organize my desk and schedule … which creates problems later. How do I find the time and/or make time to clean (for example sort through piles on my desk) when my work day is crazy and I have constant deadlines?

    4. Hoarders Paradise*

      I’m kind of curious… how much personal stuff should live in your work space? I have the standard bit of paraphenalia (photos, calendars, small tchotchkes), but I also have a coworker who has so much stuff in her cube, it’s expanding into the empty cube behind her. (Her cube is crammed, if her apartment looked like her cube, I would call her hoarder — but I’ve never been to her apartment). None of it is work related. But even if it was, in the digital age, is there really any acceptable reason behind someone’s space being crammed full of stuff?

    5. LALAs*

      Messy desk
      I work messy, always have. I have stacks of papers and notes all over my desk in piles that make sense to me. My boss has never said anything, but her desk is always tidy – even when she is swamped.
      I try to straighten the piles before I leave for the day (I have my own office, but window so you can see in all the time) and about once every two weeks, I go through and clean it up. Is that enough if no one is complaining? Is there more I should be doing?
      Just to be clear – there is no food, dirty dishes, or anything not office related. The desk just looks…worked at.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yep, I always had a messy desk because once a file is put away, I will forget that I needed to do something with it. I need the physical presence of the file to remind me. But, my new boss seems fixated on tidyness as like, a moral virtue. She says she wants the office to be “Stress free and uncluttered,” like its an emotional thing rather than a system of filing. I think she’s nuts, but I’m going along with it because I don’t need the hassle.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I LOVE HER. Please ask about the best way to keep your keyboard clean… especially if you eat at your desk and you’re not willing to change that habit.

      4. Robin Sparkles*

        Adding to the pile – would love to know if she likes those desk air compresser things and clorox wipes as sufficient to cleaning a keyboard.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Also, ask her how she feels about kitchen cleaning rotations. And what is the dirtiest thing in an office.

    8. Chaordic One*

      Please ask her about cleaning computer keyboards. Not just tip it upside down and shake it, but cleaning that icky grime from them without short-circuiting theem. Do you have to remove each key? Tips? Also similar items with keyboards.

      2. ToodieCat*

        I know this isn’t full-bore keyboard cleaning (which I also would like to know more about) but when I am bored on a conference call I will sometimes drag Post-its along the crevices between the rows of keys. Amazing what you can get out of there that way.

      4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        q-tips and rubbing alcohol has usually been my go-to but I have the Apple keyboard that’s pretty flat and doesn’t get crumbs down in crevices. I don’t even think I can pop the keys off like the older keyboards.

    9. Odor issues*

      Let’s say someone in the office smells moldy and thus their cubicle smells moldy. Managers have tried to address the issue without success, and because the managers keep changing, the employee remains, smelly moldy.

      What can they do in the office to mitigate the odor issue in her cubicle? What type of cleaning is most effective?

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        Why don’t they just have the conversation that moldy smelling person smells moldy instead of moving moldy person around to spread the moldy smell?

        Is it a musty smell? The only thing I can think of that doesn’t just cover smell with other smells is activated charcoal. Can be bought in bulk and used to fill sachet type holders (usually nylon/pantyhose) but probably not exactly attractive hanging in an office.

    10. epi*

      What about inherited stains?

      My new office has two chairs, both with upholstery that has seen better days. It’s probably just coffee but it is gross! I don’t like not knowing for sure why they are stained, and I don’t like offering them to guests (and wondering if said guests think the stains are mine). Is there something I could/should try for desk chair mystery stains? Is this something I should just point out to my building administration?

    11. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Office plants — yea or nay? Does she have any advice or cautions on what kind, how many, how to keep plants from becoming a nuisance? Aside from any allergy problems people might have, they also sometimes attract (import in?) bugs like fungus gnats or create a mess.

      1. Probably Paranoid*

        I had a plant in my cubical that thrived for two years, then someone else brought in a plant they way over-watered, until it was rotting and gnat-infested, and my plant got gnats and died.

        I used to be totally pro-plant, but now I wouldn’t bring in any since I can’t control other peoples’ plant care.

      2. As Close As Breakfast*

        A new plant that ended up having fungus gnats got introduced to my house last year and it was a pain to get rid of them. It took many months and lots of horticultural sand and (ugly) yellow sticky gnat traps in every plant to get control of the little pests. I had a plant at home I had been planning to bring to work where I also have a lot of plants (hey, I’m a plant person, what can I say?) and I basically quarantined it because I so did not want to deal with them at work too!

    12. Notthemomma*

      Inherited stains on office chairs, keeping travel clothes looking clean when you sometimes have to hotel sinks wash items, best practices for deep cleaning suitcase/computer roller bags – steam or vacuum?

    13. Apple Dumpling Gang*

      Open floor plans. Desk chairs are all fabric covered (light blue grey). There are also bowls of candy (mostly chocolate) in the immediate work area. How do you get melted chocolate off the chair? Little tiny flecks, crumbs of melted chocolate, now part of the chair’s fabric.

    15. anon for this*

      How do you deal with the one man in an otherwise all-women office, who consistently leaves the shared kitchen in a disgusting and borderline unusable state, with dirty dishes and assorted filth piled on every possible surface? It’s hard enough getting him to do his actual work.

      1. state government jane*

        Related to this–more broadly, I’ve been hearing a lot about/considering the gendered “office housework” stuff and how that can impact the way women are perceived at work… but somebody’s gotta do it. So now what?

        I’m dealing with a similar situation as June down thread… Surplus crap everywhere, drawers full of disorganized junk in disarray, too many “backup” supplies, etc. The other day I found A TYPEWRITER RIBBON. I just want to hack away at this issue little by little, but it’s also very much “not my job” and I’m having mixed feelings about it.

    16. Persimmons*

      How to clean stained/scuffed cubicle walls. The kind with the semi-shiny patterned fabric that looks like it belongs in a Days Inn lobby.

    17. LCL*

      How to clean shared vehicles! Not empty them, I mean the general grime that gets on the steering wheel and the armrest and the dashboard. Everyone has their favorite cleaning product for this, I would love to know if there is one that works best.

      1. Llellayena*

        How to ensure the the shared vehicle gets clean without you having to do it yourself every time. Oh the coffee (I hope it was coffee) stain I had to sit on in the passenger seat the last time I was in that car. And don’t get me started on leftover food wrappers!

    18. June*

      I hate clutter in offices. Having stuff laying around “in case we might need it” seems to kill my soul. I am talking about surplus computer equipment and supplies that no one has used in decades (but we might need that date stamp that can go no higher than 1999). I share the floor space with another unit in state government. It is a drain on my time to check in with everyone to see if they are ok with me sending something to state surplus or throwing it away. Their boss (we are on the same level but I don’t have employees) is old-school and he is afraid if we get rid of something, we will never have the opportunity to get a newer/better replacement (an electronic date stamper!). Plus the co-workers are the type if it ain’t broke, why fit it? Or why should we clean up when we rarely have visitors?
      His boss (grandboss) is happy to buy whatever we need for the office.
      How do I deal with coworkers who are happy to leave old, broken, or surplus stuff around?

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Ugh — cords and dead UPS/surge protectors. We have a growing pile. I wish IT would just get a wheelbarrow and walk around the building yelling “Bring out yer dead” once a year.

        2. TardyTardis*

          One time I went around begging ‘paper clips for the poor…paper clips for the poor…’ Frankly, at ExJob we never had to order paper clips *ever*, we had an amount best classified as ‘not infinite but we can see it from here’.

    19. Fluff*

      Keyboard and screens – phones – the hardware stuff. Not just to clean it “pretty” but to kill virus / bacteria. Like what do you recommend daily, when people @ you are sick, and then the hardcore stuff. I work in a hospital and no matter how much hand washing I do, eventually my grubby paws will text / type somewhere -bleck. The stuff we have to use on surfaces to kill most things is a carcinogen, so would probably kill Apple / Droids / phones / tablets (It actually has a big symbol on the container of don’t use on babies or people). Everything is electronic now a days, no not taking it into the room is not an option.

      What’s your favorite go-to to washing clothes in the hotel sink?

  21. Fishsticks*

    My partner is thinking of looking for a new job and wants to potentially have the ability to work one or two days from home a week. However, she’s currently in human services and is the supervisor for a day program for people with disabilities so it’s hard to work from home in that field. She has a background in both psychology and genetics/biology so I’m not sure what to suggest for her to look into, job title wise, since she’s thinking about taking a break from human services for a few years. Does anyone have suggestions of potential new jobs in the psychology, human services, or research field that she could work from home a few days a week? Thank you all so much!

    1. Robin Q*

      If she has the skills, there’s lots of genetics research that is big data set processing which is all done on a computer and could potentially be done from home.

      1. Fishsticks*

        I’m not completely sure she wants to get back into genetics research (she worked in a lab for 3 years and was running her own experiments so she does have a good background), but I’ll definitely suggest it. Do you know what kind of job titles they might be listed under? Thank you!

      2. Anonygrouse*

        Also, if she does have database and big data type skills from her research background, there is definitely a growing demand for informatics and data professionals in the public health and human services domains. I would look for positions that mention informatics, data management/governance, analytics, etc. Clinical health informatics (electronic medical records stuff) is also a huge field that you can take in a lot of different directions — analytics (to support business functions, quality improvement, or research), decision support, implementation, etc.

        In general, data/tech skills plus direct services experience would make her a good candidate for managerial roles where you are a connection point between the technical people and other stakeholders. She can market herself as someone who speaks both languages, as it were.

    2. Nita*

      Not quite specific to her background, but medical billing may be an option. A friend who has a background in genetics did that for a few years – I think she found the job through a hospital she worked with. Also, there may be some kind of data processing/QC work. I’m not sure if this is ever done by a third party in genetics research, but I know it’s done for some other types of lab work.

    3. Deryn*

      Depending on her psychology background and experience, assessment/psychometrics might not be too far of a reach (or it might, as many assessment positions require prior experience with specific measures). It varies by field (neurocog, school, private practice, etc) but many places I’ve been will do the actual assessment on site, with flexibility to prepare reports from home. Again, it varies on how specific or how much experience is needed, and depending on where you live she may need a license that has it’s own requirements. Just something to look into if it sounds at all intriguing!

    4. Bobbin Ufgood*

      I concur with the other recommendations — also, many large genetics testing labs (that sell genetic tests to doctors or to the public) have work from home positions. I have many friends and former colleagues who work this way. It does depend somewhat on her type of genetics degree.

    5. School Psych*

      Remote therapy/assessment? There are some organizations that are using on-line teletherapy programs for both assessing clients and doing weekly therapy, so she might be able to work 100 percent from home from her computer. EAP counselors also typically do a lot of their interactions with clients over the phone and can sometimes work remotely. My husband’s co-worker is married to someone who does the psych evaluations for social-security disability. She doesn’t work from home, but only has to be on-site 3-4 days a week, so gets a lot of flexibility with how she spends the rest of her time. If she’s interested in teaching lots of universities use on-line instructors, so she might be able to teach research skills and entry level psych/human services classes on-line.

  22. Less experienced*

    What do you do to stand out if all of your other co-workers are also exemplary employees? I started my job a little more than six months ago and have only gotten positive feedback so far (and told my boss that I really do welcome constructive criticism and feedback for how I could improve, too), but all of my co-workers at my job have at least 5-10 years more experience than me, and they are all very good at their jobs. I am worried that I might not be able to get as good of a raise in the future because it is based on a pool that gets split among our department. This is a new experience for me because in my previous jobs, I was always the “star employee,” but here, I feel like I could almost be the weak link on the team because everyone else is just really good at their jobs.

    1. Doug Judy*

      Give it time, it’s only 6 months in. You’re still learning, and I would take this time to observe and learn. As far as raises go, if you have a good manager, they will base it off of how well you are doing as someone with your level or experience, not comparing you to someone with 5+ years of experience. Don’t worry about it and I’m sure in another 6-12 months you’ll be as big of a contributor as the rest of the team.

    2. Naptime Enthusiast*

      Are there any tasks that need an expert? I also work in a group of very high performers where I’m by no means the star, but I am our resident expert on a certain tool and process. I’m happy to teach others but I’m the go-to person on something that took a long time to learn and develop.

      1. Bostonian*

        Yes, yes, yes! I second this. I am also on a small team of awesome workers, but we each have our own area(s) of expertise. Depending on what’s going on in the department and/or the company, each person’s specialty has its chance in the spotlight with higher visibility and room for growth. Maybe talk with your manager and/or even your coworkers about what areas of focus need an SME.

    3. Bea*

      Other high performers can benefit you if they’re also willing to teach you new skills. Or even if you can study them from afar and farm their skills that way.

      My success and expertise can be attributed to the things I’ve learned from other high achievers who trusted me.

    4. CaitlinM*

      Also, you’re probably already doing this, but consider working with highly competent people part of your benefits package!

      1. CaitlinM*

        Actually I take this back. Not a reason to not be paid adequately for your performance. But it is something that’s nice to have.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Definitely an office perk though!

        I also second finding a niche for yourself to become the expert on/in. It might be a little early to identify one for yourself, but you could run the idea by your manager framed as “Is there any area you think I could be focusing on in order to become a resident go-to person?”

    5. Ranon*

      A team with consistently high performance across all their employees is likely a team that makes it worth the while of those employees to stick around- it’s probably early to borrow trouble about possible future compensation just yet!

    6. Voly*

      Volunteer to do menial tasks and organizational tasks that others shy away from (such as getting the cake for birthday person, getting food for work party or a meeting) because people appreciate those things.
      Keep learning new skills.
      Be nice to people.

      1. WWF*

        Unless Less Experienced is admin support, there’s no reason s/he should be volunteering for those types of menial tasks.

        1. Rat in the Sugar*

          Yeah, that might lead to people viewing LE as a support person who’s not equal to her peers.

          But I’m thinking there are similar ideas that could work better. Is anyone on your team being groomed to move up into a leadership position or taking on really high-level, complex tasks? Instead of volunteering for menial/organizational tasks, what about taking the smaller or more routine tasks from the coworker(s) getting ready to move up? Kinda like a position backfill, I guess? On my own team, when my most senior coworker was getting groomed for management, they started assigning her complex analysis and budgeting projects, but didn’t take any of the routine monthly projects off her list. She was getting crazy overworked so I hopped in and took a bunch of the routine projects from her (with her permission). It gave her enough free time to really dedicate herself to the newly expanded parts of her role and it gave me a reputation for being a dedicated team player. Before this she had been known as the expert on our team–now she’s actually my boss, and I’m the new go-to person on our team. :)

  23. Key lime pie*

    I’ve been serving in an interim director role for a while. I received a nice interim salary increase as well. I was not interested in the role permanently and won’t apply. When the new director comes on board, they’ll need to re-structure the organization and hire new positions, among other things. My question right now is, when they arrive, what’s the best way to raise the question of how my interim responsibilities and salary increase will be handled in the short term, while the bigger-picture issues about organizational structure are worked out?

    1. Waiting At The DMV*

      Key Lime, can you say more about what is driving you on this? Is it curiosity, uncertainty about your own future role, not wanting to lose your interim salary, etc? Hard to think about how to raise/have the conversation without a little more clarity around what you’re hoping to get out of it. :)

      1. Key Lime Pie*

        Fair question. What I want to know is: How might my responsibilities change starting Day 1 of the new director’s arrival? And will I keep all or part of my interim salary increase in proportion to those responsibilities?

  24. Myrin*

    Can someone give me an actual phrase to start the conversation when going to complain about a coworker to a supervisor? I can’t just go in and say “I want to complain about X”, right?
    Doesn’t have to be perfect since I’ll have to translate it anyway (although if any of the other Germans on here know some good wording, immer her damit!) but I’d like to have a starting point of some kind.

    1. Probably Paranoid*

      I guess it depends on what the complaint is?

      “I’m having an issue with [coworker]. Could I talk it over with you to figure out how to resolve it?”

      “I have some concerns about [coworker]. Could we schedule a short meeting to discuss it?”

      1. Myrin*

        That first one especially is so simple yet so great and somehow I couldn’t get down the phrasing myself. It’s perfect! Thanks!

      2. Lucky*

        I like to lead with “Can I get your advice on this situation?” People (esp. my boss) love to be asked for advice.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Yes – you can get away with saying a lot if you frame it as “asking for advice and just want to give you all the context before you answer”.

    2. Murphy*

      It depends on what you want to complain about. But I think maybe a “I’m having an issue with Fergus I’d like to discuss with you/I wanted to let you know about/I wanted to get your opinion on” etc.

    3. irene adler*

      Start by stating how the work is adversely affected by the coworker.
      “I’m concerned about the missed deadlines we’ve experienced in the last two weeks. We missed them because Co-worker did not complete task X in time to get the data to Accounting. Can we discuss how we can meet future deadlines for Accounting?”

    4. sange*

      Depending on how German your workplace is – I’d start by thanking them for listening and noting that this is a sensitive comment. I used to work for a Swiss company, and that was a very important part of our managerial culture. We would start conversations like these very formally.

    5. mrs__peel*

      I like starting conversations with “I was wondering if you could help me with [x]”, as it seems to make people more kindly disposed.

    6. NoTurnover*

      I have actually started conversations with “Can I vent about X for a second?” when I needed to get something out but didn’t expect the person to be able to do anything about it. Have definitely done that with coworkers and probably my actual boss. Your mileage may definitely vary, that was in a small, pretty informal workplace where I had good relationships with the people I was complaining to.

  25. Meh*

    I have an annoying scenario I’d appreciate some advice on. I work as support staff at an academic institution and help out a lot of teachers. One teacher in particular who I work a lot with has developed this annoying “joke” where if he makes a mistake and I correct him, he laughs it off like I was the one who made the mistake instead of him (clearly meaning it as a joke with laughing emojis or a silly tone of voice). 
     
    At first it was amusing and I didn’t care, but now he’s continuing to make these jokes way too often and is saying them in front of other people who aren’t in on the joke, undermining my credibility. Any suggestions on what to say in a friendly tone the next time it happens to get him to stop? I’m having trouble finding the wording to say that I’m tired of this joke but not be so harsh as to ruin the relationship.

    1. Camellia*

      Maybe…”All kidding aside, I’m happy to help you when you make these kind of mistakes!” said with an understanding smile.

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        This is good. Sincere and kind, but let’s people know the truth. (Though chances are they already know.)

    2. Wendy City*

      So you could, in the moment, sort of blink and play dumb and say, “well, no, it was you who made the mistake, it’s kind of weird that you keep making this joke” or “wait, what’s funny about that?” Tone is important, so keep it light.

      You could also shoot him a note or speak to him privately after the fact/before this next occurs: “So last week, when we were talking in front of Ferguson and you made the inside joke we have where you laugh off my corrections like I was the one who made the mistake, I was worried he wouldn’t understand because he was in on the joke. It’s becoming less funny to me as time goes on — do you mind stopping? I just don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea.”

    3. Joielle*

      Could you act a little confused about the joke? Like, you tell him about a mistake he made, he jokes like it was your mistake, and you smile as though you don’t really get it and say “Ok, but you know you have to do X from now on, right? Haha just making sure”

    4. Apple Dumpling Gang*

      I would reply to the ‘joke’ with “George, I’m getting the feeling that you don’t care about the correct way to do this.
      Are you offended when I correct you? ”

      (If he says “no, I’m not offended” then follow that up with, “Well it is offensive to me the way you make jokes at my expense when I am trying to help you”)

    5. Meh*

      Thanks for the tips so far! Hopefully it won’t come up again, but if it does, I at least have some things to try and say.

    6. Rat in the Sugar*

      Personally I wouldn’t pretend to be confused–you say he’s been doing it for a long time, so I think it be pretty obviously deliberate if you suddenly acted like you didn’t understand him when you did before. To me that would come off pretty weird, and you did say that you want to keep things friendly with him.

      I would advise just saying something to him next time at work, and not even waiting til the next time he does it. Something like “Hey Teach, I wanted to talk to you about something. A lot of times when I give something back to you for a correction, you make a joke about me being the one who made the mistake–I know that you’re only joking but can I ask you to stop? Sometimes other people hear and I’m worried it sounds weird to them since they’re not in on it. Also, I’m not saying it’s a bad joke, but even the best joke in the world will get stale eventually, you know what I mean? Not trying to make you feel bad, just wanted to let you know–and if I’m ever telling a joke that gets old, please tell me too!”

      I added a lot of hedging/softening language in there since you said you didn’t want to be harsh, but I hope that’s a useful base template! Tweak to fit!

    7. Gumby*

      It’s weird that he’s doing it in front of other people. Are you making the corrections in public too? If so, and if it is logistically possible, try to keep the corrections private. If he’s bringing up a private correction in public when there is no reason for it I would assume he is, for some reason, embarrassed about his error (the whole making fun of yourself before other people can thing) so that is something else you might want to keep in mind in how you respond.

      My current job has surprised me a few times with their really open attitudes towards fixing errors. I always inform people privately (will take others off an email chain, etc.) so they can either fix it quietly or pretend they caught it or whatever. Basically “save face.” More than half the time they then email out the whole group again about what mistake they made, that I caught it, and what the fix is. It’s kind of refreshing that people don’t have their egos tied up in being right. But it is not what I generally expect everywhere.

  26. Probably Paranoid*

    Whenever I fill out job applications that ask for anything more personal than my phone number and address (like social security number, drivers license number, etc.), I enter fake information. I don’t think any company is entitled to have that information unless they are doing a background check on me because I accepted an offer from them.

    Does anyone else do this? Has it ever been a problem later?

    I’m wondering now because I had applied to a company through Indeed, and after doing a phone screening they set up an in-person interview and asked me to fill out an application on their website, which included a page asking for SSN, drivers license and my birthday. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten to the interview stage for a company I gave fake information to, so I was a little worried.

    1. Fishsticks*

      I do the same, but I write available on request so they know that I do have an SSN or a driver’s license etc.

      1. Probably Paranoid*

        That’s a good idea. On this specific application there wasn’t room for any extra text (just the literal numbers, and it was an online application), so I’ll keep that in mind for future applications if possible. :)

        1. Fishsticks*

          For those, what I do is just put in a string of zeros just so they don’t think I’m providing a fake number and it’s obvious I’m not providing it! Good luck with your job hunting!

    3. Rey*

      I assume that these fields are forcing you to fill in numbers, or you could type Available upon request. If they force numbers, I would fill in something like 000-00-0000, so that it’s obvious that it’s fake, as opposed to typing in random numbers that could actually be someone’s social security number.

      1. Probably Paranoid*

        It wouldn’t let me type in all zeros so I typed in all 5’s. (Fives are in fake phone numbers for movies/TV, so I thought it was appropriate.)

    4. Bea*

      I respect the healthy fear of identity theft. But personally withholding the information means we toss it into the reject pile. It’s a red flag that it may be difficult to interact with someone.

      We secure all information gathered in the hiring process. I’ve passed extensive background checks myself. It’s not being sorted by a part time intern that may be farming details for nefarious acts.

      I’m a hawk on my credit reports to catch unscrupulous activity. I wouldn’t apply anywhere I don’t trust with basic personal information.

      1. WellRed*

        But how do you know from the outside whether they are trustworthy? How do your applicants know you are trustworthy? At any rate, I have a hard time seeing why SSN is required in the early stages of the process. I feel like that is an old fashioned holdover.

      2. catsaway*

        But why do you need to collect the SSN or DL number of every applicant? Wouldn’t it make more sense to collect that information after the interview stage, once you’re interested in hiring someone? Not to mention, no system is foolproof so it seems like your company is unnecessarily taking on risk by collecting so many superfluous SSN and DL numbers.

        1. Probably Paranoid*

          I used to work for a huge global company that I would have thought had a very secure system, but some sort of update didn’t get done that left them vulnerable and they were infected with malware. Some people lost everything on their computers and we couldn’t work for two weeks. They also had a separate incident where our personal information was compromised and we had to change our passwords and re-complete tax/payroll information.

          So I don’t think any systems are foolproof either.

          1. nonegiven*

            Also, several people in my family were compromised in the OPM breach. My husband was only in that database because he needed a security clearance to do utility work on base.

      3. Probably Paranoid*

        Social security numbers aren’t “basic” personal information.

        It’s a red flag that a company would think they’re entitled to ask every applicant for it.

        1. Confused*

          The company is probably going to do a basic background check before moving forward with an application. If they can’t look you, they’re not going to move forward. Why shoot yourself in the foot?

          1. Anonymosity*

            They don’t need that before they hire me, and certainly not before they interview me.
            If they intend to hire me contingent on a background check, then I will gladly fill out a form with that information but not until they make an offer.

          2. Natalie*

            Background checks aren’t free or fast. I’ve never worked for a company that conducted background checks before interviewing people.

            The kind of basic google/social media check you might do before interviewing people doesn’t require anyone’s social security number.

      4. Alice*

        One of the basic principles of risk management for PII is not collecting it without a good reason. By asking for the SSNs before you need them, your processes are increasing the organization’s potential liability without any countervailing benefit.

    5. Anonymosity*

      If it’s online, I put in 0’s if it will let me.

      If it’s on paper, I leave it blank. Yesterday, I had an interview and they asked me to fill out a paper app first (seriously, drag yourselves into the 21st century, folks). There was a space for driver’s licence number and I skipped it. They don’t need that for an admin job, and they especially don’t need it if I haven’t been hired yet. I mean, obviously I drove there because they were in the middle of nowhere.

      Any company who insists on that information before I’ve even been interviewed can go suck rocks.

    6. Someone Else*

      It’s a shitty practice to collect that from everyone, but it’s commonplace enough that you’ll probably rule out too many employers if you self-select out of those who request it at early stages. You’re probably better off using an “obviously not a real number” than something fake that might look possibly real, just so they can at least interpret it as you declining to provide rather than lying.
      FWIW, my company does have a standard “job application” form that asks for DL and SS#, but no one is even given that form until they’re at the offer stage. The process for actually applying for jobs does not involve the “application” at all. It’s one of the last pieces of paperwork. I’m mentioning this just so you know, reasonable companies are out there.

    8. Average Manager 47*

      Can anyone who works in HR confirm how they respond to the refusal to provide information?
      I refuse to provide references when applying to jobs that I have no way of knowing if I’ll even get an interview. Seems a bit pompous for an employer to ask this. I have no way of knowing if HR is weeding me out for “not following the rules”

  27. What's with Today, today?*

    I’ve posted some pretty crazy stories about my job during the past few weeks and I’m sure some have wondered why I stay. This. Notes like this trump all. A local grandmother sent my boss this note about her autistic grandson this week and he forwarded it to me. I’ve met them now on many occasions. They got custody of their grandson when he was 4, and he communicated very little. He’s in high school now, an honors student and class president. I changed his name for the post.

    “When we got custody of James we had to be in the car by 7:00 a.m. so he could hear Today’s newscast. He had never met her but immediately fell in love with her voice. You absolutely could not say anything except during commercials. He would be upset, and I’d get him in the car to listen to Today, and he’d be calm and mesmerized. He was almost completely non-verbal, but could say Today.”

    I love my job.

    5. AAA*

      I definitely understand having a frustrating job as well. I keep a folder at my desk (inside a cabinet of course) entitled “For When I Hate My Job” and inside I have a list of all of the good things that I have accomplished and times that I was able to help people. It definitely helps on the harder days.

    6. Reba*

      Today, that’s amazing!

      Also a great reminder to all to reach out to those that have had a positive impact on our lives, just to say thanks, that mattered to me.

  28. On Anon Anon*

    My boss recently went on a work trip with one of my colleagues. Male boss – 60, female colleague – 30. They travelled to and from the hotel together and as they were leaving the valet addressed them as Mr and Mrs Boss’ Last Name (assuming that they were married as they travelled together).

    My boss was retelling this story at a happy hour outside of work and I joked with the colleague saying “I’m not sure if that good news for Boss or bad news for you”. The implication was supposed to be that the concierge either though my boss was younger than he is or that my colleague was older than she is.

    Anyway my boss overheard and took great offence at the suggestion that it would be unfortunate for my young colleague to be seen as his trophy wife and he has been very off with me since the incident. Obviously the joke was not well thought out on my part but it just feels so awkward to bring it up again to apologise. I dunno if I should just wait for it to die down? Try to take it back?

    1. Lehigh*

      Ugh. I don’t have any advice, but–while yes, the joke was a bit off (probably overly familiar)–why oh why is it Surprising and Insulting that most 30-year-old women don’t fancy being with 60-year-old men?

      1. Lehigh*

        The more I think about it, the more I think your best bet is to let it die down. How would you even apologize? “Of course lots of young women are pleased to marry old guys! I don’t know what I was thinking!” Or, “I foolishly didn’t realize you were recounting the story for your ego, and no reply was necessary.”

        I mean, being charitable, perhaps he took the “good news” part of your comment as a slur on his actual wife. Even in that case, I’m not sure discussing it further will help.

        Probably easiest just to wait for the sting to fade.

        1. Friday*

          “I foolishly didn’t realize you were recounting the story for your ego, and no reply was necessary.”

          HAHAHAHAA it’s totally this.

    3. gecko*

      If you haven’t apologized, then apologize. “I wanted to say, I’m sorry for my joke the other day. It was inappropriate, and I’ll make sure that my jokes don’t get that off-color in the future.”

      I don’t think your boss is being very appropriate himself by retelling the story–now there’s a story I’d let die, if it happened to me–but it’s worth an apology.

      It was a small joke, so make it a small apology. But I think it’ll look good for you and give your boss a better opinion of you.

        1. gecko*

          …me? If you’re referring to “a story I’d let die”, I must have phrased it vaguely–I’d be kind of embarrassed by someone assuming I was married to my boss, so I wouldn’t tell it as a funny story. The boss telling it would embarrass me if I were the coworker.

          No need to apologize to me ;)

          1. Ender*

            No sorry this was a nesting fail! On Anon Anon was the one who made the ageist joke about how a marriage between a 60 year old and a 30year old is good for the older person and bad for the younger. Meaning the younger person is better than the older just for being younger. It’s blatant ageism and illegal in the workplace.

            Imagine making that joke about people of two different races or about a disabled and an abled person. Ageism may be a socially acceptable form of bigotry but it is bigotry nonetheless.

    4. Waiting At The DMV*

      How uncomfortable for the female colleague. Bad enough in the moment, much worse that he would be recounting it in the office. Given power dynamics I bet she felt uncomfortable doing anything other than politely laughing. If it was me, I’d have been grateful that you spoke up.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        Well, the joke also implied the hotel employee might think she was three decades older than she actually is. This whole situation is cringe worthy for the colleague, and I doubt she was grateful for the joke.

        1. marmalade*

          Huh, I didn’t read the joke that way at all. I wouldn’t really have perceived it as a joke about age – just the trophy wife thing. Or only about age indirectly – “James has done well because he’s with hot young Suzie – but Suzie is stuck with James!”
          That is a comment on age, but only about the age difference, not implying that James is actually an old-looking 30yo, or Suzie a young-looking 60yo.

          It’s beyond gross that the boss has retold this story in a work-related event. Ughhhh.

          1. Forking great username*

            The original commenter flat out says that the joke was meant to imply that either he looks young or she looks old.

            1. marmalade*

              Yes, I understand that – I read the OP’s post!
              I’m just saying that I didn’t perceive the joke that way at all. And potentially, the OP’s boss might have too.
              Not sure the confusion?

          2. What’s with Today, today?*

            The OP actually says he’s implying she could look older:

            “The implication was supposed to be that the concierge either though my boss was younger than he is or that my colleague was older than she is.”

            1. marmalade*

              See my post above – I read the OP’s post and understood that, I was simply pointing out a different way someone might interpret that joke.

  29. TotesMaGoats*

    Just kind of a yay moment. The class I’ve been teaching is going pretty well, I think. Lots of good laughter and shock over the things coming from AAM. Even the students who’ve been working a while are asking good questions to improve their resumes. I’ve already started making improvements on the course for next semester. Thank you all for the great ideas.

    I’m thinking next semester for in class activities I want to have people divide up in group and examine some of the best (i.e. worst) situations from AAM and give the employer and employee response. I’ll probably come back and ask for ideas on which ones.

    1. Waiting At The DMV*

      What a great idea! I run my office’s intern program, and manage a recent college graduate – the need for this sort of education is huge!!

    2. Combinatorialist*

      I think it is a great idea, but I would at least start with the more routine situations. The vast majority of people just don’t need to know how to handle an employee casting spells on their coworker’s but practicing giving feedback to people who aren’t great at receiving feedback, or going to your manager when you made a mistake, or whatever is something that is much more likely to be useful. And then maybe include one of the outrageous ones for entertainment value

  30. AdAgencyChick*

    If you’ve made the leap from working as a full-time employee to working for yourself, did you have a transition period in which you did both, or a transition in which you took some time to set up your business before you started making money? How long did it last and how did you manage?

    I ask because my day job pays very well, but if I were independently wealthy, I’d definitely be doing something else. Right now I spend about 10 hours a week doing the “something else,” for (very little) money. However, lately I’ve been getting more offers to do the something else for pay.

    If I could scare up A LOT more of these offers, I might be able to justify leaving advertising. But that could take many months if not years. For the moment I’m continuing to accept as many of these offers as I can while keeping my day job, but there will come a point at which that much work becomes unsustainable, and I’ll have to choose whether to make that leap or just keep my passion projects as my side work.

    Would love to hear from others on how they made it work and how long it took!

    1. Bea*

      When starting up, unless you have a huge nest egg and financial backing you’ll need a day job. Often you’ll over time scale that back to part time as your own business grows. Barring it being a business that requires in depth set up and more hours a week than you can sustain.

      It’s very uncommon to start your own business and tossing off your steady income. Many small business owners don’t take home salary until a couple years in and established.

      Right now you have the right idea. And think down the road about how you could do advertising part time as your client pool starts to fill up and pay the bills. You’ll want to remember that cost of business will increase as you get more work and such.

      Talk to a consultant prior to dissolving your day job completely!

    2. Owler*

      Husband did this by using the side job to build up a nest egg to cover six months of living expenses before he quit the full-time job and jumped to working for himself. It helped that my job coved health insurance.

      Keep in mind that about 25-30% of your time running your own business will be dedicated to overhead activities, like finding and connecting with new clients, maintaining your website or social media presence, paying bills, quarterly taxes, and dealing with other paperwork, etc. It’s the unsexy work of working for yourself (that I was never good at) but really necessary.

  31. anon today and tomorrow*

    After two years of searching, I just accepted a new job offer! I managed to negotiate myself a 40% salary increase.

    It’s a tech position and I’m super excited that when I interviewed, the senior leadership team was full of women and POC. I think it’s going to be the first company I work at where I feel comfortable being “out” about my sexuality, too (which is great because even though I’m in a super liberal area, I’ve always felt like I needed to hide being bisexual at work).

    Their benefits are AMAZING. Four weeks vacation, WFH flexibility, 20 holidays, unlimited “honor system” sick-time. And they offer an extra week of vacation (you can only use it once a year) if you have a big life event. AND best of all, that life event doesn’t discriminate against single and/or child-free people, so the life event can be a marriage or adopting/having kids, but also buying a house, graduating from school, adopting a pet, etc.

    They have a student loan program where they pay a set amount/year towards your loan as long as you stay with them for a year after they pay each amount, and they have stipends for people who get new pets. (They have a lot of great benefits for parents too, but that’s not relevant for me tbh).

    I’m super excited to start!!

      2. DrWombat*

        Same, my area is sort of tech (statistical modeling) and I’m hella bi. Sounds like a great place to work – they looking for any biologists who do statistical models/sustainability assessments?

        Also *bi high five*

  32. Nervous Accountant*

    We interviewed interns this week! I think I was more nervous than they were b/c I’ve never done an interview. It was a group interview, so each candidate was interviewed by 2 teams of 1 or 2 people (my cws & myself). We had met the afternoon before to go over a few things but that meeting was more about content (what NOT to ask, what to look for) than logistics of how 10 people were going to interview 15 people. The internship itself is more of an administrative/customer service oriented position (with possibility of being hired FT), so we weren’t looking for anything in depth, just anyone who could pick up on things. We were instructed to grade them on a scale of 1 to 4. They were meant to be casual 5-10 minute long conversations.

    I met about 10-12 people, all college students. Some had pretty good experience (previous internships, relevant volunteer & coursework), and some had a very barebones history, which we all agreed wasnt a deal breaker.

    The first few I met were very impressive, and one was very overqualified. A few others who I was neutral towards–nothing bad but nothing impressive.

    There was one candidate who was more experienced than the group. She had a good work history until 6 years ago but was changing fields/industry. When I asked her about a 6 year gap in her resume, she said “well if you read my resume, I was in school at that time.” For some reason the tone and content put me off. She also started saying that she’s been struggling for a job, and unfortunately her degree was in the wrong field and she can’t get jobs now even though she has a Masters. I felt REALLY bad for her and tbh I sympathized a lot but I automatically didn’t want to bring her on board :-/. Other interviewers said she was very entitled and had a negative attitude.

    There was one who I was lukewarm towards, very neutral. However, she made the effort to find my email address (we don’t have cards) and actually sent me a f/u email so that brought her “grade” up IMO.

    Majority of them were great candidates! they asked a lot of good questions and the one that followed up wrote exactly what I would have written lol.

    They all seemed very poised and confident and I was impressed until my cw pointed out to me that they’re coached on this at their college career center lol.

    It’s so interesting being on the other side!

    1. Murphy*

      I know that you mean follow-up, but for a second I thought “f/u” meant she went out of her way to send you a “F*ck you” email.

      That’s really cool. I’ve never been on the other side of that process.

      1. Liane*

        “I know that you mean follow-up, but for a second I thought “f/u” meant she went out of her way to send you a “F*ck you” email.”
        Me too! I was wondering how off a day I was having to make that mistake, until I saw your post.

    2. JJJJShabado*

      At some point, it was asked if I wanted to participate on the questioning side of the interview. I thought it might be good to talk to people. I was with my supervisor and mostly just asked technical question. For the most part now, I lead interview sessions with colleagues (I started this about 5 years in to the job, I’m 10½ into the job now). I try to make the interview conversation. I’m not that good at it, but we seem to do okay with it (amusingly, all three of us that conduct the interview have the same first name).

      I try to use what I remember from interviews (this is the only professional job I’ve had and I only had a handful of interviews before this, I got lucky). I don’t want to ask random things or put pressure on the interviewee because interviewing is hard enough and I didn’t like that. AAM has helped me with being a better professional in all aspects.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Her response about the 6-year gap was not the most diplomatic, but I can understand her being annoyed. Unfortunately for her, she really isn’t in the position to demonstrate her annoyance.

  33. KE*

    Highlights/lowlights of your workweek?

    Major highlight: I got an internal promotion! It’s ~13.5% raise, which I’m moderately happy with, and we’re adding a person to our team to back-fill my position which means we can spread out some of our workflow and I can get some of the lower-level projects off my plate.

    On the other side of the coin, I’m still trying to catch up after a cold and it feels like my office is a germ factory with how many people are sick. I’m spraying Lysol and sipping EmergenC like it’s my job.

    What are your work-related high and lows this week?

    1. De Minimis*

      Highlights—getting better at some of the weekly tasks.

      Lowlights–still have the new job jitters [only been here six weeks] and already trying to figure out when it’ll be okay to start looking again. This was far from my first choice during my job hunt, but it’s where I was hired after months of interviewing. Even if the job improves, the benefits are pretty weak and there’s no future for me here [it’s a federal contractor gig], so this is really just a job for right now.
      Still having a rough time with some of the training, too. Kind of felt like I was treated poorly by a coworker. She keeps CCing the supervisor on replies to me when I’m asking her questions. Really annoying.

    2. Murphy*

      Low: Had to work some on Sunday afternoon because several higher-ups didn’t meet my Thursday deadline so I could prepare for a Monday morning meeting. When I started working, I was still waiting on one person, but it needed to get done, so I went ahead and did it anyway. Monday morning rolls around, and that person finished Sunday evening and asked me to update my work accordingly, so I had to scramble to do extra work at the last minute to incorporate her feedback. Ugh.

      High: My boss said “Good job” after the meeting. He’s not big on feedback, so this is pretty high praise. Also I got my first paycheck with my raise in it today :)

    3. Rocky Mountain High*

      Highlight – I was called back for a 2nd interview for a part-time position with a small non-profit. I would love to partner my part-time contract w/ part-time in office work.

      Lowlight – I was caught in traffic for 2 hours, it rained – everyone freaks out, and missed an appointment with a community partner (for another contract I have with a different non-profit). I had to make my way off the highway and call to cancel (because I still had another hour to go- and I left home 2 hours early to get to the location that should have taken only 1 hour!) I’d been chasing the appointment for 2 mos (mostly because they’d been ignoring me). I was embarrassed and mad. But they seem to be working with me to find a new appointment date.

    4. ThatGirl*

      We finally have a new team lead which is overall good but it’s an adjustment. I have nothing against her, she seems very qualified and likeable. But I miss my old team lead, with whom I had a great working relationship. I still don’t know why she left (if she was let go, if she quit after being led to her breaking point, something else).

      And new TL seems eager to reassure me that she values feedback and pushback, which is great – I would hope so, considering she’s brand new and we have institutional knowledge she doesn’t. I mean I get it, it’s a good thing to hear from a manager, but like… there’s so much you don’t know yet, of course we need to fill in missing information.

    5. Alianora*

      Low: Was rejected for a job I interviewed for about a month ago.

      Highs:
      1) In the same rejection email, the hiring manager asked me to apply to a different, higher-level position than the one I had originally applied for.
      2) I also received a job offer from a different organization!

    6. AnonEmu*

      Highlight: New coworker started so we are less understaffed.

      Lowlight: Everyone got the flu because we are so understaffed no one could really stay home sick. Also the project I was hired to do, that I accepted a lower salary than I necessarily wanted on this job just so I could get experience doing, that my boss knows was the deciding factor in me picking this job….it’s not happening. I kept getting put off when asking about it and then she announced in front of everyone that it’s not happening, or if it is happening, it’s after funding ends for my position. So I’m getting out of here as soon as I can find a new job.

    7. SaraV*

      Highlight: Officially offered the job I mentioned in last week’s thread! Drug test completed, paperwork filled out, orientation and some training next week.

      Lowlight: They want me to work a customer-facing role for a week so I can learn the front end part of the process, because my job will be working with the back end of the process. I TOTALLY understand why they want me to do this, especially being an outside hire, and I welcome the training. It’s just my introverted, slightly comflict-aversion self is nervous about it. I keep telling myself it will only be a week…it will only be a week…

    8. Marion Ravenwood*

      Highlight: I got my campaign director on a major national news channel (the UK equivalent of something like CNN). Granted it was their afternoon business show, so not that high-profile, but still – national TV! And I got to go to the newsroom/studio, which was very cool. I still get very nerdy/fangirly about things like that. It’s the first time I’ve done this for a campaign where I was doing all the work (we’ve had directors on these programmes before but it wasn’t me that secured the opportunity), so I feel very proud of that one.

      Lowlight: The big project I’ve been entrusted to look after for the whole organisation is slightly falling apart, because no-one can agree on who needs to review it when and everyone has lots of changes, and we’re getting close to the deadline for our big boss to sign off the structure of it and I’m worried that I’m doing a terrible job. It’s a project I really want to do well on, because it massively plays to the one thing I’m actually OK at, and now I’m nervous that it will collapse and it’ll all be my fault…

      1. Waiting At The DMV*

        You didn’t ask for advice, but sometimes in this situation I’ve sent out a broad status update email flagging open questions and timelines by which they must be resolved in order to stay on track. Done in a neutral way (hey team, we need to rally and solve this together) it can make you look super competent & on top of things. Just putting that out there in case it’s helpful…

    9. Jadelyn*

      Highlight: I wrapped up a big project (generating customized communications for all staff that meet certain criteria, about a major upcoming change that will affect them) that had gone through at least half a dozen iterations and had me ready to pull my hair out from frustration. But I hit the button on Wednesday, and yesterday I came in to probably two dozen thank-you emails from the staff, and many weren’t just the quick “thanks!” type but a “thank you so much for all the work that went into this, it looks great and it’ll be super helpful for us as we plan for this” type of response. So it felt nice to have that done and positively received.

      Lowlight: We’ve got our big annual staff event coming up and I’ve been SLAMMED with prep work for it – and several labor-intensive report/analysis requests came in from managers on other teams this week as well, so I’m having to carefully manage expectations on those without just saying “dude, I do not have time for you right now, hold your freaking horses and I’ll deal with you after the event.”

    10. Anon for this one*

      Low – Great-grandboss publicly talked about a project that a team of three people just wrapped up. I was one of those three people. Only the other two were mentioned. I know my supervisor’s email to great-grandboss announcing the completion of the project gave me credit. Oh well.

      High – Um. It’s Friday?

    11. Emily S.*

      Oh man. Monday, just after I left the office for lunch, I was rear-ended while stopped at a red light. It was such a massive bummer, and my car wasn’t driveable. It’s been a stressful week!

      Highlight – we had our company-paid yoga class today, and I really needed that. Felt good.

      BTW – congratulations on your promotion! Nice!

    12. 653-CXK*

      Highlight #1: One of the staffing agencies I’ve been waiting to hear back from has set me up for an interview for October 4. It’s contracted for four months, and it may be a permanent job.

      Highlight #2: I had an interview yesterday. After I left the interview, I felt lukewarm about it (because the last time I was excited about a joining company, the HR grandboss (according to their HR recruiter) gave me the ‘sorry, we’re not moving forward’ email after getting a hold of my references – I really would have liked to work for them. I’m warming up to the possibility of being hired, as my mother, aunt and uncle worked there, but then again, I’m expecting the same result.

      Lowlight #1: Three staffing agencies are on my phone and email block list for being ultra-aggressive in their job search – after reading their reviews on Glassdoor, I know why they’re not very popular!

      Lowlight #2: Another staffing agency (not as aggressive as above) contacted me excitedly about a new job and wanted to talk about it. We went back and forth, and I sent her the phone number…then radio silence until I asked what happened. “Oopsie…the position was filled and we forgot to tell you about it.” I don’t think I’ll be using that recruiter anymore.

      1. 653-CXK*

        Quick edit…
        I felt lukewarm about the position and the next steps (the last time, I had gotten to the point of references, and once that was done, the HR recruiter (via the HR grandboss) sent me the ‘sorry, we’re not moving forward’ email. The company was small, the people were great, and I really would have liked to work for them, but it wasn’t meant to be).

        Side note (neither a highlight or a lowlight): I was also sent to give my references on another job, but there was a tight timeframe (24 hours) for my references to respond. I received the link to the reference website on Friday, emailed my references, and then checked the website again on Monday – the same “sorry, we’re not moving forward with your application” message popped up.

    13. TheTallestOneEver*

      Highlight – We eliminated a position in July and no one in management would make a decision on who would take over the departing employee’s responsibilities. Lots of confusion for our staff and our customers. Six months after the cut was announced and three months after the person left, a decision has finally been made and communicated. No more confusion! And luckily, none of the work was assigned to me or my team.

      Lowlight – I just started a job search and a recruiter told me that I might be limited because I’ve spent too much time with my current employer. It’s probably an honest assessment and I was grateful for the candor, but just not what I wanted to hear so early in the search process.

    14. Nervous Newbie*

      Highlight – My new boss said I’ve been doing a great job and I was finally able to push some last minute ads out the door.

      Lowlight – I’ve been pulling ten hour days all week and more work keeps being piled on. Hoping for that intern we want to be approved!

  34. Anonymous PSL*

    This is a long one, so I really apologize!

    For anyone who has filed a sexual harassment complaint at work, what has been your experience? How quickly did things get resolved by HR?

    I’m currently waiting for HR to get back to me about a complaint I filed against a manager for making inappropriate sexual comments and touching me inappropriately. On Wednesday morning, after a meeting with the most recent sexual comment, I went back to my desk and felt like crying. I knew what I heard and the tone, but there was no “proof.” I felt like I was going crazy and didn’t know when I needed to be on guard around him. I was afraid to wear normal, business clothes, because I didn’t want him making comments on my body/physique again.

    I wrote down four recent incidents with as much detail that I could remember, and asked one of the HR reps if we could speak privately. I was so afraid I would cry, and that she wouldn’t believe me. I started by saying that I wasn’t even sure what I was asking for, but I knew I felt uncomfortable around this person, and that I wouldn’t feel safe alone in a room with them. After speaking about the four incidents, she took my paper, made a copy, and said she would meet with the director of HR the next morning to make a game plan.

    I came back to my desk, and met with someone who is kinda my boss but not technically. We’ve worked together in the past, and she’s a no nonsense kind of person. She was in the meeting with the most recent comment, and she also heard it in the manner it was intended and was absolutely shocked. She let me go home for the rest of the day to regroup and just have some alone time.

    Thursday afternoon, the same quasi-boss and I met. She had gone to HR, and backed up my complaint. Thursday evening, I received an email from the HR contact, saying that she hadn’t forgotten about me. She was looking into a couple of things, and HR would follow up with me by early next week. My guess (based on the knowledge that others have filed complaints against him) is that they’re deciding what level of disciplinary action to take.

    The crazy thing? We just went through harassment training at work. Everyone had to go through it. I’m dealing with a lot of emotions, and not sure how to feel. I’m proud of myself that I went to HR. It wasn’t ok what he did/said, and it’s not appropriate.

    1. dawbs*

      I”m sorry you’re dealing w this crap. (and I”m sorry that this week has been triggery as hell for a lot of us). Temember that he went through this training and chose how to act, land it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with jacka*es enjoying flexing their power.

      I’ve been unlucky enough not to have an HR when this directly affected me–but my current small employer recently allowed someone to resign. There had been sexual harassment complaints (that our single HR person took and that the bosses ‘handled’ by talking to him and changing his duties) but it wasn’t until he badmouthed a manager (dishonestly) that he was let go. (and frankly, it left a bad taste in my mouth that my liberal, progressive employer was unable to see the importance in getting rid of someone who was inappropriate with volunteers and staff, but thought it was super important when he lied about a boss.)
      HR is a crapshoot. I know a few awseome HR folks. they are, IME, not the majority of HR employees.
      BUT, employers are increasingly aware that they need to pay attention and, amny actually see that allowing jerks to drive away good employees has a real cost to them.

    2. The Nonniest Moose*

      I’m so sorry you had to deal with an inappropriate manager and that you’re currently feeling unsure about what’s going to come of it and when. I hope your organization handles it properly and quickly. Kudos to you for reporting it!

    3. KE*

      I don’t have any firsthand experience with this in the workplace, but there are a few things I know:

      You are very brave for coming forward.
      This is not your fault. It will never be your fault. Even if he is disciplined, fired, blackballed from the industry, whatever bad things happen to him. This is his doing, not yours.
      If anybody tells you it was your fault, dismiss all of their opinions for the rest of time because they are not a reliable person. If anybody at work harasses you for whatever happens to your boss because of his actions, go right back to HR and/or the quasi-boss who supports you (which, btw, good for her for standing up!).
      You are entitled to feel however you feel about this. Guilt, shame, anger, discomfort, shock, emptiness, fear, sadness, relief if he’s dismissed, pride for coming forward, anything. Don’t try to repress your feelings or let anyone tell you that you’re not reacting in the right way or that you don’t seem to be feeling xyz enough.
      This sort of thing can stick with you. Consider talking to a therapist or a counselor or some sort if you think you can. If your work has an EAP, consider using it.

      For what it’s worth, no matter what happens to him repercussion-wise, I am very proud of you for reporting this. Not only for standing up for yourself and standing against this creep, but because he might think twice about doing this to somebody else as well.

      Sending loads of support and strength.

      1. Doug Judy*

        This! Great job standing up to this. I am sure HR is just taking time to make sure they cross every “T” and dot every “I” before they act. You did an amazing thing Wednesday and you should be very proud!

    5. LKW*

      I’m sorry that you’re dealing with this. There are a couple of things to take away
      1. They listened
      2. They didn’t make you defend your position
      3. Your q- boss backed you up – validating your position (people are told they are oversensitive or imagining/misinterpreting)
      4. They are acting

      Sounds like they are taking swift action. Might not be a big satisfying action, but they are taking action.

      You did the right thing. You were brave. You were strong.

    6. Foreign Octopus*

      I’ve never had to involve HR (mainly because my company didn’t have HR) but I did speak to my manager about getting one of the other staff members to stop wolf-whistling me every time I came in in the morning – he was in his 60s, I was in my early 20s. My manager listened and it was dealt with that very day. I didn’t hear anything else about it but I knew it had been dealt with because the wolf-whistling stopped.

      I think you’ve done everything you should have done. You should be proud that you’ve gone to HR. Well done. It takes women like you calling out this behaviour to really stamp it out. I know it’s scary – I was on the verge of tears when I spoke to my manager – but you’re doing the right thing. And I’m so glad that your quasi-boss also backed you up. It helps you know that you’re not crazy.

    7. The Rain In Spain*

      I am so glad HR appears to be taking this seriously and investigating for you. And I think it’s very brave of you to raise it to their attention. I hope they resolve this quickly.

      It’s not uncommon for HR to place the person being investigated on administrative leave- are you still having to interact with your harasser while they determine next steps? I hope not!

      1. Anonymous PSL*

        Unfortunately, I do. Because of what I’m working on, my team has almost daily standups. If he continues in his position, I’ll have to continue to be around him and work closely with him.

        1. The Rain In Spain*

          In that case I’d like to add this: it’s great that they are responsive and clearly actively working on this. I would certainly hope you don’t have to deal with any retaliatory behavior after they take whatever action they deem appropriate, but if you do, document and take it to quasi-boss and HR immediately.

          If you feel uncomfortable around him, perhaps it’s worth asking what accommodations can be made so you do not have to interact with him while they are investigating. And if the decision is made to discipline (rather than terminate his employment), consider asking to report to quasi-boss (or someone else) instead so you don’t have to continue to work so closely with him. Or if you really like your team, etc, see if they will consider moving *him* first.

          Again, so sorry you had this experience, and I hope it gets resolved quickly and to your satisfaction!

    8. Evil HR Person*

      I’m so sorry you were put in that situation! I can tell you that your supervisor (quasi-supervisor?) did the right thing and HR too. It’s only been 2 days and HR has a duty, to you and to your company (both at the same time and in equal measure) to do a thorough investigation. I cannot tell you enough about how awesomely you handled the situation. Writing it down and talking to HR was (is) THE best thing that any person can do when they’re the unfortunate recipient of any kind of harassment or bullying behavior.

      Right now, HR may still be investigating, rather than coming up with a course of action. The thing about investigations is that they start almost immediately, but may take longer than anybody likes. They have to look at past behavior, interview people (the accused, his colleagues, his supervisor, any and all people that were at the meeting and heard what he said, and so on), they look at his file to see if there are any other instances, and THEN HR will suggest either disciplinary action or termination (the latter, if the accused has a habit of doing this). In the meantime, be patient as much as you can. Hopefully, you don’t have to work the weekend (?). Your HR seems to be responsive, so they will give you information as soon as they have it. When the assistant was checking in with you, that’s what we do – to let you know that we are still here, still working on your issue, still concerned for your wellbeing.

      That said, harassment training doesn’t work as well as we like. Some people never learn and some training is so dry that it’s just boring to listen to, so many people don’t. Moreover, without examples, there’s nothing to tie it to real life. I can’t speak to the specific training that you received, and maybe it was awesome and engaging! It’s just that some people are simply not the kind to learn. Period, full stop. Some people are going to be creeps no matter what. Once again, I’m so sorry for what happened to you, but you SHOULD be proud of yourself and of your company for taking you seriously and investigating immediately. Maybe there are other women (or men, who knows?) who have also been harassed by that person and thanks to you and your courage they will be spared further trauma.

    9. Elizabeth W.*

      *internet hugs*

      It sounds like Quasi-boss has your back. I’m proud of you for reporting. Take good care of yourself this weekend.

      *crosses fingers that HR throws the book at him; will bring skates out of retirement for kicking if necessary*

    10. Probably Paranoid*

      I reported a guy that was grabbing/hugging me, following me in a parking lot and making inappropriate comments at work before. Had no idea who he was, but he claimed to work in the building. HR didn’t take me seriously at first (they said things along the lines of “He’s probably just being nice and likes you” and “He probably just thinks you’re pretty”). After they talked to their legal department they suddenly got serious and said it was sexual harassment. They investigated it for about two weeks (they interviewed him, looked at his records/history and found security camera footage to backup my claims), then transferred him to another location. So it turned out well in the end and seemed to get resolved pretty quickly, though I didn’t appreciate essentially being told it wasn’t a big deal in the beginning.

      Sounds like your situation is a lot worse since it’s someone you actually have to work with. Sorry you’re dealing with it. It’s horrible on many levels!

      2. tangerineRose*

        A stranger grabbed you and hugged you, and HR said… Wow! What he did sounds more like assault to me.

    11. ONFM*

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.

      I’ve been involved with two of these investigations. The first time, harassment was something that was discovered during an ongoing investigation; I was the investigator for the first offense and, with HR’s consent, also investigated the harassment. My subject was guilty of both but probably only would have been fired for the first violation; once he realized he couldn’t beat it, he negotiated a severance with HR and was allowed to resign. It took about 2 months. In my most recent experience I was a reporting party; harassment was reported to me and I contacted the appropriate parties. HR hired an employment law firm to conduct the investigation; they were done in about 2 weeks. He was allowed to retire about a month later.

      Depending on your industry and what procedures are required (e.g. civil service, union contracts), the wheels of justice can turn agonizingly slowly. I will say that, in both situations, the subject of the complaint was immediately separated from the reporting party.

      Good luck. This stuff is always ugly.

  35. And Now A Mouse*

    So we just had another round of (unexpected) layoffs. And I am so concerned. I’m just now in a new lease on a more expensive place, I have no support network in the expensive city I’m living in, pre-existing health conditions that require insurance, and I don’t have enough time in my current role (6 months of my 6 years with this company) to feel confident job hunting for that role.

    I don’t know what advice I’m asking for really, just. Wow. Super worried.

    1. Bea*

      Are they giving severance packages? And you’ll be eligible for unemployment benefits. Just a couple soothing things. You won’t go to zero income suddenly.

      *hugs*

      A good friend was fired about 3 months ago. Fired!!! And she just had 2 job offers both making more and better all around. She’s started and it’s going great.

      Your fears are real but just trying to shine a little positive twist on the traumatic experience to get you over absolute doom and gloom scenario. Xoxo

    2. Combinatorialist*

      Alison’s usual advice (which I think is fantastic) is to start planning what you would do if you were laid off/knew you were going to be laid off. Probably some combination of:

      1. Cutting back on expenses to build a buffer
      2. Job searching (if you have been at your current company for 6 years, you can definitely job search. If they ask why you are searching after so soon in your role, I think you can be honest about there is a lot of uncertainty with layoffs recently and you are looking for stability). Or at least preparing to job search — polish your resume and cover letter, reach out to your network, etc
      3. Research freelance/temp/unemployment options so you know what the options are

      While uncertainty sucks, having a plan will only help

  36. Lucie*

    I was recently on a one on one work trip with a newish employee at my company (I’ve been here a few years)

    And it was the most unpleasant experience of my life as he made all sorts of borderline racist comments and other politically inflated baiting that I just ignored.

    However as we checked in he “jokingly” told the attendant that we were there for our honeymoon and I am thinking about reporting this to HR. I’m really unsure, I travels a ton for work already this was our second trip together with the first trip he was fine but with other people around?? This time it was horrible and we’re going to have to travel a lot more together in the future and it makes me sick kinda thinking about it.

    What should I consider before doing this?

    1. Seriously?*

      Do you have the same manager? If you have a good relationship with your manager you should tell her the issues and see if she is willing to talk to him about professional behavior on a business trip and if she would support you if you go to HR. If you want to report it to HR then you should, but going to your manager first may be a good option if you are unsure.

      1. Lucie*

        We don’t and my manager is amazing, he’s so supportive and awesome that he is the reason that I am still here. The man is the absolute best I think I’m going to talk to him about it. Thanks.

    2. Rey*

      If you haven’t talked to him about it already, and you feel safe doing so, I would start there. His behavior is definitely not okay, it’s making you feel sick, and he won’t change until someone tells him where the line is. If you’re comfortable talking to him first, I would make it as straightforward as possible and focus on the comments that were made, “These comments make me uncomfortable, and I wanted to get it out in the open since we’ll be traveling together in the future.” If you think it helps build up your position, you could add something about representing the company well, etc., even though its wrong in either setting. Especially if he was fine when other people were around, I get the sense that he knows exactly what he’s doing and will back down once called out on it.

      1. Lucie*

        We have a pretty decent age gap that he seems to not respect. Also he seems to just like to get people riled ? I feel like letting him know that it’s bothering me is the worst thing I can do.

        For example on this trip he insisted on walking across a street from where we were “to take a photo of the confederate monument so that I can piss off my liberal friends” and when the rental car lady asked if guns were in the car and he went on a rant about how it should t matter cause guns were just objects and don’t listen to the liberal propaganda. He also proceeded to refer to one of our coworkers as. “Which Donna? Oh Brown Donna”. (Her name is not actually Donna but you get the idea)

        1. Foreign Octopus*

          In this case, as he sounds pretty aggressive, do not talk to him first.

          Go straight to HR and explain your concerns. Or to his manager/your manager. Not only is this hugely inappropriate behaviour but, as a newish employee, this is definitely something that should be brought to the attention of whoever is managing him.

          Please don’t brush this under the rug. These types of people don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt.

        2. Jadelyn*

          Holy s***, report the unholy hell out of this guy, like, yesterday. Write down all the comments you remember with time/place/date/context, and take it to your HR as soon as you possibly can.

        3. Elizabeth the Ginger*

          The “Brown Donna” comment especially is absolutely something you should report to HR or your supervisor. The other comments might fall under him just expressing his political opinions (though in a really in-your-face way), but for him to focus on your coworker’s race, and phrase it that way, is …problematic.

          1. Ender*

            Yeah out of everything you’ve listed that’s the easiest one to prove was wrong – it’s hard to claim that’s a joking comment.

        4. The New Wanderer*

          Ugh, please do report him. All of that is unpleasant and at the very least, you should talk to your manager about future travel with him because he sounds like someone who should not be allowed around other people. It sounds like it’d only be a matter of time before he said the wrong thing to the client/customer/someone with the clout to create immediate consequences for him. But even so, he said the wrong things to you, and that’s enough.

    3. Jadelyn*

      Talk to your manager, if you trust your manager and have a good rapport, or just go straight to HR if not. That’s unacceptable, and if your HR is at all competent they should jump on something like this immediately.

    4. Augh*

      Eewwww he said you were there on your honeymoon while you were checking in to the hotel? That’s super gross.

      1. Probably Paranoid*

        “Ewwww” was my reaction too. I probably would have said it out loud. “Ewwww! We are not. Don’t even joke about that.”

    5. Bagpuss*

      I think you should report. For your own sake, but in making the report I would also raise the other, racist comments . All of it is stuff which not only affects you, but also the reputation of the company.

      It might be helpful to think ahead of time what you would like your company to do? do you want them to discipline him , or do you want them to ensure that he doesn’t get sent on work trips if you will be there, or if it would be just the two of you.? Or (depending on the nature of your work travel) to put him in a different hotel or make clear that you don’t have to share a car with him.

    6. Aphrodite*

      I wouldn’t wait one minute to talk to both your boss and HR. He is awful, awful, awful not just to you but to the company he represents while traveling. Since he says things like that in front of a car rental agent–and presumably has no problem saying them in front of hotel reps, wait staff, and others who might well know the company he is traveling for–it is not just offensive to you but potentially damaging to the company.

  37. Sick and tired*

    I have been having some medical problems for several months I am seeing a doctor but so far they have not been able to find the cause. My problem is that my health issues have caused me to underperform at my job (I was a recent hire) and my boss has decided I am not a good fit. I am employed though the end of the year but I need to find another job in January. How do I explain why this job did not work out when I am still dealing with the medical problems?

    1. Chaordic One*

      This is tough because you don’t have the medical problems under control and don’t know if they’ll be flaring up again. In your situation I think I’d downplay the medical issues and not mention them. Instead I’d focusi on your employer saying that it was not a good fit, although you did your best, and then I’d act a bit clueless about why that might not have been a good fit.

      1. Waiting At The DMV*

        Hmmm, I’d worry that acting clueless might give a negative impression. Sick and Tired, is your employer aware of your medical issues? Have you been candid and direct in explaining what you are experiencing, and that you too are dismayed by how this challenge has affected your performance?

        1. Sick and tired*

          They are aware of the medical problems. I actually agree that it isn’t a great fit. I was doing ok but not stellar before I got sick and I am barely getting by now. I could do a better in a position that is more in line with my skillset even with the medical problems.

    2. Probably Paranoid*

      In what way do the health issues make you under perform? From your username I’m assume fatigue? Maybe say the hours were too long (a lot of overtime or early morning start time?) or the work was too fast-paced (you’re better when you can take your time and be careful instead of rushing)?

      1. Sick and tired*

        It is mostly severe pain which makes it difficult to concentrate and also makes it hard to work overtime. My job does involve a lot of overtime, but in my field I can’t really find a job that doesn’t expect overtime.

  38. The Nonniest Moose*

    Context then question, and content note: sexual harassment/assault. I posted a while back about a sexual harassment situation at my workplace (creepy harassing professor; I’m a grad student) where I was getting strong signals the internal investigation considered it a “he said, she said” thing and nothing would change. My experience and the experience of a number of grad students was harassment, a couple had him do things like touch their thighs, but the folks who had experienced touching were afraid of retaliation and didn’t want to put their names to the complaint. No actual update to that situation, haven’t heard a thing from the investigator in two months (and it’s been six months and three investigators since I first brought it to the investigative office). There’s no official information from the department because it’s a “personnel issue” but the grapevine suggests that the department has banned him from working with or being around grad students and that tenure means they can’t actually fire him with what they have so they’re instead trying to make him miserable enough to leave. It is extremely unlikely he will choose to leave – the academic job market is very tight and he’s not actually a good teacher or researcher, the chances he could ever find another job don’t seem good. I’m graduating this year and leaving it all behind, but I’m worried primarily for the undergrad students he’s still allowed to teach and secondarily for the future grad students if the department ever decides to reinstate his grad-teaching privileges. I wish I could just trust that they never would, but even if he never talks to another grad student he’s still allowed to teach undergrads.

    The question: what the hell do I do? I’m warning the new grad students, I’m warning my own classes of undergrads, I’m encouraging my grad student colleagues to do the same. I know I can’t actually fix the problem if the institution won’t, but the fact that this creeper will continue to have such power over students unless and until he actually assaults someone and they’re willing to report it and then maybe he could be fired but no guarantees? It has me sick.

    1. anon for this one*

      Does your school offer free legal counsel to students? Mine did, and so I met with the school’s staff lawyer to discuss something similar (stalking and non-sexual harassment by someone tangentially affiliated with the school). It was helpful for me, because while the Dean of Student’s office was handling the investigation, the staff lawyer had knowledge of what was happening but was not directly involved in the investigation. They can at least offer you legal advice about how to protect yourself or make moves outside the school.

    2. DrWombat*

      Ugh. I don’t really have any advice here, but it’s a shitty situation to be in and I’m sorry you are stuck in it. I’d warn as many people as I can but beyond that….yikes. I am so sorry.

    3. M. Albertine*

      A similar situation just happened at the University of Iowa campus, and it took a lot of bad press to get the guy fired. But he was only a lecturer, and he was actually banned from a campus facility for taking pictures of women, so there were some circumstances that made it easier. If you’re willing to get noisy, maybe talk to your student newspaper and see what they can help dig up to make it a story, which will at the very least put the entire campus on notice that the guy is a predator.

      1. The Nonniest Moose*

        Thanks, I’m weighing out going to a local newspaper about both the professor and the process – naturally I’ll be accused of obstructing the investigation if I do. And of course the harassment is all juuuuust on the line of plausible deniability so there’s not hard evidence I can point to.

      2. The Nonniest Moose*

        Weighing out the consequences of making a big public stink. I’m sure I’d be accused of obstructing the investigation.

    4. Legal Rugby*

      Was the internal investigation a Title IX investigation? Because taking that long to get back to you is a HUGE red flag for their process. I am required to have a resolution within 60 days, or provide biweekly updates on why its taking longer if it is (this is my internal policy, but its pretty common, and the timeline is based off of the current guidance.)

      If this WASNT a title IX investigation, it should be. This 100% affects your access to education and your ability to focus on your education.

      1. The Nonniest Moose*

        It is a Title IX investigation and it has been a veritable parade of red flags from the beginning – for example, the first investigator left and the office didn’t make any arrangements to pass on her work or even forward her email until my department chair called to see what the holdup was on some questions she had. The second investigator repeatedly did not answer a question I had about witness confidentiality and I had to show at the office. It’s gone on about as you’d expect from there. The university is leaning on the fact that DoE interim Title IX instructions only mandate a fair process without any specific timetable. The DoE has rescinded the 2011 Dear Colleague letter than mandated 60 day resolutions.

        Any emails to this third investigator get me with a canned response that gives no information. I want to go to the news about both the professor and the process but I’m currently weighing the consequences of being accused of obstructing the investigation.

      1. The Nonniest Moose*

        That’s a really tempting proposal. My fear about taking it as national as the Chronicle is that I’m on the market this year and the aforementioned tight job market is going to be rough enough for me without a whistleblower situation. A big part of me says I wouldn’t want to work anywhere who saw the fact that I made all this public to be a problem, and also that it’s my duty as a human to seek justice and make the world better. But a fearful part of me that I don’t like very much is terrified of being jobless and branded as a troublemaker.

  39. Just want to be a Teapot Specialist*

    How do you manage your career track down from management?

    I’m a licensed specialist, let’s say licensed in teapot restoration. I’ve been promoted to supervisor, which generally means splitting my time between supervising unlicensed specialists and doing my own restoration work. However, my managers keep giving me more and more administrative management tasks (planning, budgeting, strategy), which I’m untrained for and which I don’t have any skills in. One even asked me how I’d feel not doing any restoration whatsoever anymore to free me up for this work!

    I have a degree and license in this specialty because it’s what I love doing, and I want to stick with that. I also don’t want to start job searching again, because this is a relatively new position for me, and I’m honestly still exhausted after my last search.

    Is there a way to ask my managers to step down from this responsibility without ruining my career here? They need a licensed specialist to supervise the unlicensed ones, and I’d be happy to continue to do that, or just step down to be a specialist. I just don’t want to be spending my time doing the administrative & management work which I’m not skilled at.

    1. Nita*

      It depends on why you’re getting this admin work. It sounds like it’s the kind of stuff that comes with being promoted, because the person who has the big picture should be doing long-term budgets, developing strategy etc. If that’s what it is… there’s no way to be a supervisor and avoid it. You could request training, and possibly spread some of the work among your staff – something like invoice processing, maybe, or proposal writing. If you have billable hours, another factor might be that project budgets simply don’t hold up when you do the bulk of the work – they may be set with the assumption that someone with a lower billing rate does most of it.

      If they’re giving you admin work that would normally be done by someone else (Accounting? head of Admin?), though, you could push back by pointing out it’s taking away time from your actual duties.

    2. Bea*

      They’re asking you how you feel about it. Be truthful. Even if it means you’re made just a specialist and they need to bring in another supervisor, you can work with them most likely. It wouldn’t benefit them from moving you to a job you’d hate and eventually leave. This way they could easily transition you elsewhere with time to find someone who can do the administrative aspects and not mind not doing any work outside that realm.

      It’s not a trap unless these are sneaky bad people!

      1. Just want to be a Teapot Specialist*

        “It’s not a trap unless these are sneaky bad people!”

        Thank you for this especially! It really resonates, and I’ll keep it in mind when I talk to my managers.

    3. Waiting At The DMV*

      Is the problem that you don’t want to do the work or that you’re not adequately being trained? Most people are uncomfortable being asked to do new things they don’t know how to do – I’m wondering if you could ask for some coaching or training before you firmly decide the new work isn’t for you…

      1. Just want to be a Teapot Specialist*

        Both? Not only am I untrained, but this isn’t the job that I wanted. I was offered a supervisor position, which in this industry means I supervise the education of unlicensed professionals – think a doctor overseeing residents in a teaching hospital. I wouldn’t have accepted the position if I knew I’d be doing what I’m doing now.

        Instead, I’m doing work which use none of the skills I’ve trained and worked so hard to develop. I really want to go back to doing that – I just don’t want to have to switch companies again or burn any bridges in order to do that.

    4. SarahKay*

      In my experience most people that *like* management work assume that everyone else will also like it, and is keen to move into it. I think that (assuming your management are reasonable people) the best thing to do is just talk to them. Make it clear that you love the specialist side, but don’t enjoy the admin side and don’t feel it’s a part of your skill set.
      I’d say there’s a strong possibility that you’re getting these extra tasks *because* your managers like you and want to help you – and would hate to think that actually, they’re making you unhappy instead.
      I totally sympathise with you: I did the ‘be a manager’ thing in a previous company and decided it wasn’t for me. I’m now a very happy specialist, and have cheerfully explained to four different managers, over the years, that this is where I’m happiest and best. Once I’ve made it clear, all four have supported me with alternative ways of professional development and opportunities.
      Good luck!

    5. Free Meerkats*

      A suggestion, ask if a Senior Restoration Tech position could be created that would be the licensed person they need, would be responsible for the supervision and training of the unlicensed techs, but the admin management work would be done by someone else. Possibly a manager of a different group? I’m currently in a Long-Term Lead position like this. I’m not management, though I fulfill the technical things our retired manager did. The manager of a different but related group handles the admin type stuff.

      Assuming the Mayor’s pet consultant decides we need to fill the retired manager’s position, I’ll likely move to manager and take it all on. But for now I’m getting an extra 5% pay, doing the work I enjoy, raising my capital by agreeing to do this, and still have union and Civil Service protection.

  40. BadWolf*

    I’m going to the annual convention for the Society of Women Engineers in a couple weeks (and I am also female presenting). Can anyone give me any wardrobe tips? My workplace is casual so I mostly wear jeans and tshirts or button up shirts. I don’t plan to job hunt while there. I’m thinking khakis and a button up shirt? Or I have some t-shirts with my product logo on it.

    1. CTT*

      Are there pictures from previous years’ conventions? That might give you a good idea of what attendees and presenters wear (especially if there is a difference between the two)

    2. kcat*

      The tech/programming conferences I have been to have usually been super casual. Not sure if engineering is different. Sometimes you can find pictures/videos of past presentations online that might give a clue. (it does look like they have a youtube channel!) I feel like khaki’s and a button up are usually acceptable – even a button up, open, over a tshirt (that has the advantage of being able to remove the long sleeves when you present – I don’t know about others but something about presenting usually makes me SUPER warm).

    3. Seriously?*

      If you are presenting, I would go with slacks and a button up shirt. Khakis are probably ok on days you are not presenting, but slacks would probably be the safer choice.

      2. Ender*

        I think bad wolf means that they present as female, not that they are presenting at the conference.

        I’m a woman and an engineer and I always wear a nice pantsuit to conferences – but if you have male anatomy they might not fit well.

    4. bdg*

      Business casual, but err on the more professional side. IME, engineering conferences have a pretty wide range of dress, but presenters are usually a little more formal. I’d do black trousers, a silk shell, and a cardigan.

      I don’t think khakis and a button up would be a *bad* choice, but it’s a little less formal than I’d probably go.

      *However, I’ve only attended ASME conferences, not SWE, so it could be completely different.

    6. BusyBee*

      I find adding a blazer to an outfit can really dress it up. My go-to presenting outfit (also a woman in tech) is closely tailored trousers, button-up top, loose-fit blazer. It looks super polished, but not overly formal. You can even do jeans, t-shirt, and blazer to make it look a little more presentable. I call it my Tony Stark Look.

      1. Waiting At The DMV*

        For some reason this post makes me feel a little sad. A guy could totally wear jeans, a tee shirt and converse and no one would think anything of it. I say wear whatever makes you feel comfortable and confident.

        1. Woman is not a bad word*

          There’s a terminology problem that’s causing confusion. Badwolf is using “female presenting” as a way of saying she looks like woman. Many responding to this thread took “female presenting” as a woman giving a presentation, so they are advising BadWolf to dress more professionally than wearing khakis.

    7. Dr. Anonymous*

      Maybe get your logo embroidered on a button-up shirt if you have time and it’s your own company.

  41. DrakeMallard*

    Tldr: How do you handle an exit interview when you’re boss isn’t great?

    Full story: I’m got a job offer and turned in my two weeks notice to Teapots Inc (thanks AAM for all the good resume/interview advice) and was recently told I would be doing an exit interview with HR. Teapots Inc wasn’t a bad company at all and I gained a lot of wonderful experiences here and loved my coworkers! But my boss, Robin, was…not great.

    Examples:
    -She was often late or absent with out telling any of her direct reports (me + my 3 coworkers) or her superiors. In an office where everyone else arrives early/on time it’s super noticeable. My grand boss has even started making comments lately.

    -She has very poor communication skills. It’s hard enough to speak with her when she’s absent, but even in the office she often takes days to answer an email if she answers at all. She has forwarded me days old voicemails from customers making our group look slow and setting a poor tone for when I can finally call them back. Also her lunch break might be one hour, it might be two. You never know when she’ll actually be in her office.

    -I don’t have an actual clue what she does. All the customer complaints she receives eventually get forwarded to her direct reports. Anytime she is required to attend a meeting she often doesn’t speak, and if she does she basically offers no helpful information.

    -She was promoted to her position years ago during a period with a lot of turnover and has very little practical experience with a lot of the work we actually do. This has led to her having very unreasonable expectations about our workloads and has caused us a lot of stress at times.

    -Finally, she doesn’t stand up for her direct reports. We deal with a lot of disgruntled customers and rather than making waves, she will often take the side of the customers and leaves us looking incompetent.

    With this exit interview coming up I know my coworkers are hoping I will mention these issues. Heck, I really want to bring them up! It’s crazy that no one is dealing with this. But Robin has been this way for years and it’s unlikely my comments will actually do anything to change that. We’re the kind of place where firing is not common. Plus, when I was discussing my last weeks at the company with her, she mentioned that she sees feedback from the exit interviews. I’m concerned about this because our field is pretty small and tight knit and Robin has been around a lot longer than me. I don’t want to bring these issues up if HR will just tell her everything I say. Is there a way I can describe these problems without it coming back to bite me?

    Help! My interview is this afternoon!

      1. DrakeMallard*

        No idea! I’ve never had a formal exit interview before. Also most people stay here until retirement so nobody can give me a clear answer about it.

        1. Seriously?*

          I would probably ask during the interview. The HR person should be able to tell you who will have access to the whole thing and whether you can have parts be confidential. If the HR person seems unsure, then assume nothing is confidential.

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        Even if they say it is confidential, don’t believe them. There is no legal obligation for them to keep things confidential, or even truthfully tell you whether they will do do. You should assume that anything you say will be repeated to others in the company, including people you mention.

        Remember: HR works for the bosses in the company. They are not on your side. They are on the company’s side.

    2. irene adler*

      I wouldn’t say a single word about your boss unless you are completely sure HR will take concrete action to remedy the issues you cite. Otherwise, stating these issues could blow-up on you later if you use this job as your reference. This is because the last thing they will remember from you is how you complained about your boss.
      Likely to leave them with a bad taste in their mouths, so to speak.

      If HR has not shown interest in employee well-being in the past and indicated they are interested in improving work-place conditions, why would they take an interest now? Simply because you are leaving?

      Be circumspect in your exit interview.

      1. DrakeMallard*

        Our HR and other bosses definitely show interest in our well-being, which is the only reason I’m considering saying something at all. No one has left this job in a very long time and none of us have been asked for feedback from HR or grandboss regarding Robin since I’ve been here. That’s kind of another issue I wanted to talk to them about. Their employee review system is good but doesn’t offer direct reports the option to comment on supervisors’ leadership. They’ve listened and taken action on other issues so I don’t think they would throw me under the bus. I’m more concerned with voicing these problems without sounding like I’m just complaining/over emotional. It’s been years of dealing with this so once I get started I tend to get riled up. The list I originally posted could have been quite a bit longer.

    3. the gold digger*

      You don’t have to participate. I refused at my last job. They’d heard it all before about the awful CEO and had done nothing and I didn’t need even a hint of a possibility of retaliation from the CEO.

      Just tell them no. They can’t make you.

    4. all the candycorn*

      I once told the truth in an exit interview, and the person was reassigned to a different worksite/supervisory line (their grandboss was their childhood mentor), and then terminated within the year.

      It did not have any professional repercussions to me.

  42. Lalaith*

    I GOT A JOB!!! After 14 (14!) months of unemployment and desperation, I finally found someone who would hire me. The people seem nice, and competent, and not dramatic. I’ve been here for a week already, and the job seems very doable. Lots of similarities to my last one, which has its pros and cons. It may not build my skills in quite the way I was hoping, but we’ll see. Pay is also similar to my last job – I was hoping for more, but, like I said, 14 months of unemployment and desperation. There should be room to move up in the future. It is SUCH a relief, though. Life can finally start moving again.

    5. Bea*

      At least it’s on par with your last job and not a major downgrade! I hope it continues to be a good experience.

  43. Master Bean Counter*

    I’m either a wonderful boss or an idiot.
    I had a recruiter contact on a position. It’s a step down from where I am now. So I passed. But it would be a wonderful step up for a coworker who used to be my direct report. So I asked her if she was interested. She’s talking to the recruiter now. I don’t know if it will go anywhere. I’d be okay personally if she goes, because I know it’s a good thing for her. But I also don’t know how we are going to fill the hole she’ll leave behind.

    1. kcat*

      I have a truly excellent employee I feel the same way about. I send her jobs ads occasionally… then she bought a house in town and I breathed a hugh sigh of relief that she’ll at least be sticking around for a while. (We’re the only game in town for what she is passionate about, though a distance job is always a possibility).

    2. Queen of Cans and Jars*

      Maybe a little from column A & a little from column B. :) Putting aside work considerations, it was a very nice, selfless thing to do.

    3. Bea*

      You’re a kind person who despite the possibility of losing a great employee, you want the best for her. If that makes you an idiot, wear it proudly and loudly.

      If everyone could want the best for everyone else and actively try to help them in little ways the world would be great. You would also not have to worry about filling her shoes.

      I also believe the universe will watch out for you. If she leaves, you’ll find a great person who will lock into the role smoothly.

    4. Lucille2*

      I think that makes you a wonderful boss. Managers who help get their people promoted and achieving their career goals are good managers. Managers who selfishly want to keep good people on board and risk stagnating their potential are bad managers.

      I’ve had both. Guess who are the managers I’ll go to work for again if ever the opportunity comes up? LastJob made me feel very unwelcome after resigning to pursue a dream job opportunity. You don’t want to be that boss. When she moves on to do great things, she’ll remember the managers who helped her take steps to advance, and she’ll remember who tried to hold her back.

    5. Marthooh*

      I think you’re in a good position to ask her to document her tasks, processes, etc. – whatever it would take to help train her eventual replacement. You can present it as something you would like to have anyway, whether she takes this job or not.

  44. Cressl*

    I applied for a Data Scientist position at my large company recently and they sent me a dataset to do three complicated (for me) analyses + executive summaries on before they even move on to video interviews, and I’m just checking to see if that’s reasonable? I’m not actually a data scientist so it’ll take me several hours to complete this (I have some skills from my recent grad program, just not the experience that might make it faster).

    I’m still going to do it, because it’s a good learning experience for me, but if consensus is that it’s too much to ask before even interviewing, I might mention it to them. (If it’s normal, then that’s fine. I’m new to this field, obviously.)

    1. Murphy*

      A skills test before an interview…maybe. But I think something that takes several hours might be a bit much. Although, if it wouldn’t take a more experienced person several hours, then I think I go back to it being ok.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      I’m in data analytics, and I’ve only done no more than one analysis and executive summary for any given job – but none of them were for an internal move.

      However, for an internal candidate who’s probably doing this on company time, I don’t think this is a bit deal. As long as you need to use substantially different techniques or technologies in them, I wouldn’t think much of this.

      1. Cressl*

        Oh! I didn’t even realize that they might be thinking of it as an internal move. (Same company, totally different departments and obviously a different field than I’ve been in.) That makes me feel better about maybe doing some of it at work today instead of trying to find time this weekend I wasn’t planning to spend. I think everybody got the same case study and I doubt they’re all internal (it was a BCC mass email with the instructions), but maybe it’s a normal amount of pre-assessment and other people won’t be pushing back. We’ll see.

    3. Data Monkey*

      Data analyst here. I’ve been in a few interviews that test my SQL skills, but usually the test is somewhat basic or a simple line of questioning. In fact, I bombed an interview because I was a few years out of practice and completely blanked on some syntax I knew well but hadn’t used in so long. The executive summary sounds like more work than a simple test to assess your skills. But it might something you’ll have to do on a regular basis in the role and they just want to assess your communication skills when presenting a complex set of data. That’s a skill that many data scientists/analysts lack. Also, the hiring manager may not expect you to deliver a great analysis, but is looking at a hint of your critical thinking skills. I had an interview like this once where the hiring manager expected me to give the wrong answer to a logical question, but he was interested in my thought process in talking through it. I ended up being hired after that interview.

      Good luck to you. Sounds like it could be a cool job.

    4. Someone Else*

      It depends. Did they indicate about how long they think this should take? I think any exercise they ask of your pre-hire should be 1-2 hours max. If it’ll take you 3-4 but someone with more experience 1, then it’s a reasonable ask on their part because they’re probably assigning it assuming it’ll only take you about an hour. But if you got the impression form them they expected this to take candidates in general 3 or more hours then it’s probably not a reasonable ask on their part.

    5. Jerry Vandesic*

      Sounds like overkill since you haven’t even had an interview. We use these kinds of tests, but after the interview. And three analyses also sounds a bit much.

      From their point of view, they should be a bit more judicious in sending these tests out into the world. Do it only for the candidates you think are strong candidates. Otherwise the tests will be shared on places like Glass Door, and lose their effectiveness.

      Finally, make sure you post information about the test on Glass Door.

  45. Anon for this*

    Any tips for when your boss forgets to follow up on small things?

    I love my manager, but she sometimes forgets/puts off things if she has to do them herself. For example, it’s a small business and we have a generic contact e-mail. However, we can’t use it because she doesn’t check it herself (at least not as far as I’m aware) and she hasn’t taken the steps to give me (the person who fields calls and e-mail inquiries) access. I don’t want to push the issue because it’s not critical (we have our individual e-mails on the site) and I don’t know if there’s some slim chance that she’s uncertain if she wants to hand over access (I mean, I doubt it, but still). But in the meantime, it does affect some of our marketing options since we don’t want to make things like brochures that have an e-mail of an individual who may not be at the company forever. I’ve brought it up a few times and she’s always enthusiastic about the idea of giving me access so we can use the e-mail as our official contact, but it hasn’t gotten done.

    Is there a way to follow up on small things like this when you’ve already brought it up a few times?

    1. kcat*

      One thing might be to research exactly how she would add you, and then ask to do it right then if it’s a quick enough process. “Oh, I learned how to do this recently, it’s real quick, let’s do it now.” If it’s something you need to, say, email a tech person to handle, you could offer to send the email or ticket with her copied.

      1. Anon for this*

        I have done that. My boss initially asked me to take care of it, but IT responded with some instructions about what she would have to do as the “owner” of the account. I passed this info along and offered to help with any questions, but she just gets busy.

    2. Nita*

      Set a date? Let’s say you’re getting out a new brochure in two weeks. You could say “Boss, I’m going to use the company email for this one, and I’d like to be able to keep an eye on it when the brochure is published. Can you have IT give me access by next Thursday?”

    3. Auntie Social*

      Tell her ‘something this minor shouldn’t be on your plate anyway’, and play up the important things she has going on.

    4. Bea*

      Ask her if there’s anything you can do to help her fix the issue. “Do you want me to find out how you authorize access?” Does she have the right contact? It could be there is something small in the way that keeps her pushing it off.

      This is more critical than you think. If you have an email set up, there is someone most likely using it. Generic emails are great and I’ve grown to loath personal ones. I get my most frequent headache from vendors who have been sending invoices to WrongPersonEmail and call in a fit months later because we haven’t paid.

      Unless you were dealing with an unreasonable boss who is prickly, you’ll need to become comfortable reminding them of many dumb little things. I do it constantly and even when my boss doesn’t need them too much. Just a “getting us on the same page” kind of easy breezy relationship. “I still need access to EmailAddress! I have the customer support number here if you need to reset the password!”

      Seriously…you should be able to access it you just need an email client and credentials. I get she forgot the password.

      1. Anon for this*

        I’ve given her instructions, and they seem pretty straightforward.

        It’s entirely possible that someone has tried emailing the address, but fortunately, it’s not publicly displayed.

        She’s really a great manager to work with. But I’ve found that e-mail is often a bad way of reaching her, and the instructions I have are in an e-mail that I forwarded to her (because that’s how IT sent them to me). So I think that’s a factor. Maybe if I print them out and ask if we can make time to do it, it’ll be easier to get it done.

        1. Bea*

          Ah it’s not publicly displayed. That’s good news. Because if someone is using it, they probably are upset it’s unanswered.

          I shiver at the reminder some people aren’t good at email. In this era it’s a fact of life that needs to be dealt with and shouldn’t be a suggestion.

  46. kcat*

    Balancing “treating employees like adults” and “needing people in to answer questions/get the work done”

    So, I am a first time manager, and am having a hard time balancing “treating employees like adults” and facing (slight) blowback when an employee isn’t there to answer questions. I manage two people: one is very conscientious and is always in when expected. The other is a night owl and cannot work an 8-5 schedule. I’ve been flexible and said she can come in by 10, but she pushes that (10:15, 10:30). I leave at 4, so I have no idea if she actually stays to complete 8 hours of work – she’s sometimes in very late, but other days she leaves right at 5. I have a feeling she’s actually putting in more like 35 hours, which feels unfair to my other employee. I have no way to verify this unless I start staying late (which would probably look odd).

    The other issue is, I can’t really evaluate if she’s getting everything done. The work is such that sometimes things seem like they will take 4 hours but end up taking 3 days. She always has reasonable explanations, but sometimes I feel like she just hasn’t put in the time. (quite honestly, this is a trick I’ve used in the past too. ugh past me)

    Our work is not such that we need to staff a service desk, but occasionally my boss or boss’s boss will come to ask a question at, say, 10:05 that this employee could answer, but she’s not in, and I don’t know when she’ll be in. It feels embarrassing to admit that I’m not sure when she’ll be in, and my boss asks occasionally if the employee is putting in the hours.

    So I guess I’d love thoughts on: time management when you don’t actually know how to evaluate how long something will take, and is there a limit to “just be an adult and get work done”?

    1. Ali G*

      She’s well past the line. Time for Alison’s age-old script of “I need you to be at work by 10 am, can you do that. Because if not, we will have to discuss if this is the right role for you.” You also need to address the work taking too long too. Sounds like a lot of excuses for being late/leaving early and basically just not doing work.

      1. kcat*

        Yeah, I have that conversation… about every 3-4 months. Then it gets better for a bit, then it slips again. When I talk to manager friends about it, I always hear “what’s 15 minutes? This isn’t a big deal.” But it’s 15 minutes late on a start time that’s already an hour later than anyone else in the departmental. Sigh.

        1. Rey*

          Every 3-4 months sounds exhausting. An isolated incident is not a big deal. But habitually ignoring feedback that you’ve given her is. Whatever consequences are allowable in your company need to be enacted, because at the moment, she is getting the message that she can tune out and nothing happens. (And the other employees who don’t have a flex schedule and see her come strolling in later and later probably don’t have have great morale in this regard because it seems like she gets to do whatever she wants, and that management doesn’t care/isn’t managing the situation. ) That means up to and including letting her know that she will be expected to work 8-5 because she has not been able to meet your requirements for working a flex schedule. And then, from Allison’s post earlier this week, “Can you commit to doing that, or will this job not work?”

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It sounds like the problem here is that when you’re telling her “I need you to do this; can you do it,” you haven’t thought through what happens if the answer (in word or deed) is no. In other words, what’s the “or else…” that’s attached to that? You’ve got to figure out what consequences you’re willing to impose, and then impose them (or warn her that you’re about to impose them). Right now you’re training her that when you have a serious conversation with her, she only needs to do what you’re asking for a little while.

          You need to say something like, “We’ve talked about this many times and you improve for a while, but then it starts happening again. We’re at the point where I’m not willing to start from scratch on this every few months. I need to meet these expectations permanently. If you don’t, I cannot keep you in this role — and that’s true right now, but it will also be the case if the problem resumes in a few months.” (But only say that if you mean it, of course.)

        3. Time for a gnu name*

          The next time you’d naturally bring up the late arrival (i.e., once you’re at the 3-4 month mark since the last time) I would change the conversation slightly. “We have discussed in the past the need for you to keep a regular schedule, so I know I can rely on you being here when needed. I need you to start at 10:00 a.m., no later. 15 minutes may not be a big deal if it happens infrequently, as in once in a blue moon (1-2x per year), but it is a big deal when it is a regular occurrence. In the past when we’ve talked about it, the situation improves for a while and then you fall back into the habit of arriving later than is acceptable. This has impacted the department in X ways (being unavailable to answer questions you should be responsible for, lack of productivity, etc.), which is not sustainable in the long term. Can I count on you to be here by 10:00 a.m. from this point forward?” If employee says yes, great! Hold them accountable. If you’re not already past the point of verbal warnings, I would give a verbal warning the first time, with a warning that next time it will be written, and so on. If employee says no, then the conversation has to turn toward what Ali G. says above, “If you cannot commit to that start time, we will have to discuss if this is the right role for you, because the needs of this role are not being fulfilled.”

          1. Time for a gnu name*

            Ha, of course while I’m typing out my (lengthy) response, Alison says it much more succinctly. That’s one of the many reasons I love this site!

      2. kcat*

        I do think you are right that on the whole, it’s not a great pattern. Like, if it were only the lateness OR the work time, it might be fine, but I need to address all the parts together instead of thinking about them separately.

        1. Seriously?*

          I would probably tell her that until she gets on top of the work, you need her there during normal business hours and that she can go to a more flexible schedule after she demonstrates reliable time management.

          1. Time for a gnu name*

            I agree this is a good tactic. It would be different if she was meeting the needs of the role, but she’s not. She will have to deal without the flexibility until she can get back in your good graces.

          2. Dust Bunny*

            Yeah, since you don’t know if she’s actually putting the hours in, she should lose the privilege of coming in late. She needs supervision, and you can’t do that if your hours don’t match.

            Sorry, I’m a night owl, too, but this is way out of line.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          The fact that higher management has noticed the lateness and is concerned she’s not working the full 40 is huge, and it’s going to reflect poorly on your management abilities (and may already be doing so).

          I also think the lateness and the possible shorter work week are related. If she’s so casual about getting to work on time after multiple conversations about it, she’s probably pretty casual about working a full 40, whether or not her work is getting done. But those things aren’t optional.

          I think you should have the conversation with her ASAP. I’m not even sure I would still allow her a 10 am start time, unless that was in writing. That’s a perk and she squandered it. Given that you may not have a better way to track her hours and job performance than to observe her in person, I would consider pushing her back to a 9 am start and if she’s a) late more than X times in Y period, OR she’s not present and working for a full 40 hours every week, it’s time for a transition-out conversation.

    2. Rey*

      I think you can definitely have concrete expectations for her in terms of when she comes to the office. You’ve already provided a flex schedule to meet her needs, so I would just touch base and let her know very concretely, “We’ve made this flex schedule available so that you can manage your time, with the understanding that you will be at work by 10 am. Arriving later than that is not an option, and will lead to XYZ consequence. Can you commit to that?” (And the consequence could include being required to work a regular 8-5 schedule).
      If she’s a salaried employee and work is getting done, then I think the whole 35 versus 40 hours thing is less of a concern, and isn’t really about fairness to the other employee. I think this is just another thing that piled on with the other concerns.

      1. kcat*

        The 35 hour thing concerns me because we have an employee handbook that specifies that our category of salaried employees are to work at least 40 hours/week. I don’t know how strict they are about it (the whole workplace is about 4000 employees). But without clocking in/out, there’s no way to tell.

        1. Rey*

          If that’s what it says, then that’s what she needs to do. You could check in with your manager to ensure that this is how they want you to handle it. Is there anyone in your organization who clocks in/out? My department had an employee who was technically salaried, but, because of performance issues, was told to use the same clock in/out system so that her manager was aware of how many hours she was at work. I think it was set up through HR/payroll because they manage the system. If that isn’t available, I would just pick a system (and the onus should be on her) for her to track her hours.

          1. kcat*

            I started my small team on tracking hours a few years ago on a spreadsheet, just for our information. The hours are time spent on projects per week rather than time we get in/out. No one else tracks hours or clocks in/out in my department (except interns).

            I suppose my next step is to ask the employee directly. Something like “I’m not sure if you are aware, but our employee handbook states we must put in 40 hours each week. I want to check in on that: are you putting in the full 40 hours each week?” and then work from her response.

            I suspect it would be harder to lie to my face than on a spreadsheet.

            1. Auntie Social*

              Can you check her computer/register history to see when her last entry was, over the course of a week? Then you can tell her what you’ve found, it’s not an aberration because you have a week’s history, etc. Or ask her why she left early on Tuesday, and if she tries to claim she was there until 6:00 every other night, you can say that you know otherwise. You’d also know if when she’s there after 5:00 she’s just cruising Ebay.

    3. Teapot librarian*

      I have trouble with this as well. Every single one of my employees has a different job, and after 3 years, I still don’t know if they are working efficiently or not. (Then again, I spend too much time reading AAM on Fridays, so who am I to talk?)

      1. kcat*

        Yeah, that’s part of it too. It’s not like I NEVER slack off. (Though I do consider AAM to be work related, especially as I continue to learn to manage.) And honestly, I’d rather just not care, but I do think she could probably do better if pushed, so it’s mostly a question about ethical obligations towards her and my employer.

      2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        I’m not sure if you’ll be able to figure out if they are working efficiently (unless you have to back them up some day and do the work yourself. I focus on effective work, if that makes sense.

        It can be tough to figure out if they’re working effectively, but signs I look for…
        *Are they responsive to requests and follow through?
        *Am I getting complaints or escalations?
        *Do they generally seem busy
        *Am I happy with the work that I’m seeing
        *Do they generally have a ready answer for something they are working on. If I ask a question and start getting vague answers I start to get suspicious. “Hmm I’ll have to check on that I was waiting for something” vs. “I sent a reminder to Bob last week. I’ve been waiting on his numbers for about a month now. Last week he told me that they had to start from scratch because the data was corrupted”

        The last one is usually where you’re going to find out if someone is engaged and is working. It’s normal to get the first answer on occasion. But if it’s a common answer from someone, chances are there’s a problem.

    4. Bea*

      To be treated like an adult,you better act like one.

      She’s acting like a child. Who can’t keep commitments and can’t be trusted to follow through.

      It’s okay to tell someone that there are core hours and you may come in early or stay late around say a 10am-4pm block but that means 10 is the latest. Barring catastrophe.

      You will be walked over when given too much rope and loose parameters.

    5. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I think the answer is that this employee is taking advantage of you. You have been flexible with the hours and it doesn’t sound like it’s working for you or the business. What are you/the business getting out of this arrangement? If she was a high performer that you could trust I could see offering this perk… If it increased their job satisfaction and moral. From your description this doesn’t sound like the case.

      If it were me, I’d rescind the flex hours. I’ve found that when I suspect something isn’t right but I can’t put my finger on it, that there is usually something there. It’s my default to trust employees are professional and conduct themselves as such.

      Having her go back to the 8-5 hours will allow you to observe the employee more and will give less opportunity for her to slack if that’s your concern.

      If you choose to allow the flex time to continue, it’s not my favorite thing to do, but I’d start by being ‘present’ during those late hours. Maybe it’s IM or a desk phone call. Perhaps you have a project or something that needs to be completed prior to the time you arrive in the morning. Stop in to pick something up to see what’s going on.

      Treating people like adults is not the same as putting blinders on and hoping for the best. She is your employee and one of your core functions is to make sure she is performing her job.

  47. TheTallestOneEver*

    For anyone that’s transitioned from being a regular employee to a full time contractor/consultant, can you share the pros and cons from your personal experience? If you could go back in time, would you make a different decision?

    I’m ready to move on from my current employer after almost two decades. I’m being courted by people in my network about contract opportunities. I’d never really considered making this change in the past, but there is some appeal so I’m trying to understand the good and the bad from those that have already walked this path.

    1. Non-profiteer at your service*

      For me I didn’t have much challenging in the work, pace, requirements, or expectations. I enjoy it very much, especially working from home. I think the challenge is changing your mindset from being a ‘team’ player to being the individual who may be working on the peripherals. Depends on how the contract is written and where you carry out the work.

      Learning how to write and/ora review a contract. Quoting your time on a project, especially when the contract isn’t particularly explicit in what they want other than (X) number of this.

      Paying estimated taxes on time. I hate doing it – not time consuming per se – but it reminds you how much you really pay in taxes when you personally have to do it every quarter. Being knowledgeable of the IRS small business expenses and requirements. Pub 535 https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-publication-535

      Keeping those you work with/for – clients or the employer – on pace with what you’re doing and in communication when you need someone to make a decision. Knowing how they like to communicate and receive their updates. Good time to explore your choice in project management platforms if your clients don’t have their own that they use with you. Mine is pretty simple, I use Outlook Planner because I have an Outlook email with the non-profit I contract with.

      Are you good for working from home or a place that isn’t a traditional workspace? If you need a workspace, join a cowork and get a dedicated desk so you have an ‘anchor point’ for your work. Also it’s good if you bring the client to you.

    2. Midlife Tattoos*

      For me, I was at the same company for 13 years and then they lost a contract and everyone was laid off. I hadn’t considered contract work until it was offered to me. The money was spectacular (software engineering) even though I was paying for my own insurance.

      For me, the biggest downside was no PTO. So to be able to take a day off without sacrificing the money meant that I had to compress my workweek instead of taking unpaid hours.

      One really awesome side effect is that when I went back to being a regular employee, I could command a much higher salary.

  48. Ali G*

    Just checking from Day 3 at new job! So far it’s been great! Everyone is so welcoming and I am really looking forward to getting started.
    It’s refreshing to be in a situation where my boss and others are actually excited to work with me and think I am going to kick ass! I still have no idea how I will do that (ha!), but it’s nice to know the people that matter think I can pull it off.
    Anyone else start a new job recently? It’s been 6 years since the last time I did this – I forgot how overwhelming it can be!

    2. Workjuice Murderino*

      Me! I’m just finishing my third week at my new job. I love it here, and received the same kind of warm reception you did. I’m also still a little overwhelmed, and meanwhile, I’m also still struggling with impostor syndrome. (I feel like I should be more worthy of their ass-kicking faith, I guess.) I’ve taken on a couple of cross-departmental projects in the hopes of feeling like I deserve to be here.

      Good luck in your new job! I’m excited by your excitement!

    3. WG*

      I just completed my first week at a new job. I’d been with my last employer for three decades, so this was a major change for me. So far, so good! I agree with you that it’s great to be working with people that actually seem to want to work with me.

  49. Darjeeling*

    Say there is this big company – let’s call them Apoogle. They have a job opening for designers for websites that I applied for a while ago, gotten a second interview for, but haven’t heard back since (it’s been a week).
    Now, they are also advertising for designers for magazines. Would it jeopardise both my current and future chances if I also apply for this position? Should I wait till I hear about their decisions for the original interview before I make a move?

    Just wondering what everybody thinks.

    1. Murphy*

      I think if it’s a similar enough job (i.e. there isn’t a danger of making you look unfocused) which it sounds like it is, you should apply. You don’t know how long it might take them to get back to you about the first job, and if the second job is one that you’d be interested in, you don’t want to miss out.

    2. Alianora*

      I don’t think it would be a problem, as long as the positions are similar enough that it doesn’t look like you’re applying to every opening they have. I would go ahead and apply.

    3. Reba*

      Are you talking with a recruiter? If so I’d talk to them about it.

      Do you know if the same area or people are handling both hires? If that is the case, I’d reach out to whomever has been coordinating your process so far, and say, Hey I saw this other posting, I’d also be interested in that, what say you?

      If it looks like it is a different department/different people, apply away. Don’t wait. Consider mentioning in your materials that you also applied for the first opening.

      Good luck!

    4. Gumby*

      Just know that at least one of the companies that you hinted at just tosses all resumes into a central pot and internal recruiters look through them for open positions so while you *think* you are applying for a “teapot polisher” position and write a super-well thought out cover letter that shows how your past as a “teacup polisher” sets you up for success in your new preferred line of work (and makes it clear that you are completely DONE with teacups and the next one you see you will break to smithereens) (though slightly more professionally worded) you will still get a call asking if you are open to a phone interview for a “teacup polisher” job which you will reluctantly agree to while inwardly seething that you wanted out of this nonsense and what – are they illiterate? Then you will bomb the phone screen because… ugh.

      Or at least they did 5 or 6 years ago.

  50. The One With The Cooties*

    So the sharks I work with are very hypocritical.

    * The one that can’t stand any kind of noise, such as me eating or doing anything at all, is totally cool and fine with listening to someone hand grind coffee in our office.
    * The one that literally ignores me and doesn’t speak to me (well, they all do but this one is the worst) was complaining that we don’t make younger employees feel welcome in the office. You literally don’t make me feel welcome in the office, or talk to those people at all, and suddenly you care?

    1. Waiting for the Sun*

      Sorry you’re dealing with rude people. I’ve been the outcast at times, and it’s painful. Maybe they’re jealous because you’re better worker/more attractive/have a more interesting life outside work. They are courting bad karma by being mean.

      1. StellaBella*

        Hugs to both of you and support. I’ve also been bullied by colleagues and man, it sucks. Hope it gets better, Cooties. And agree on the karma, Sun.

  51. Teapot librarian*

    Annual review time starts on Monday. I have an employee who is going to get pretty bad scores from me. He and I have never had a conversation where I said explicitly “you need to shape up or you are going to get a poor evaluation” but he knows that I’m not happy with his performance. Last year my boss didn’t get around to approving my evaluations, so we ended up never finalizing them (and the year before I missed the deadline for establishing the plans because I had just started), so this is the first time in three years that my employees are going to be seeing my evaluations. I never actually managed to put Hoarder Employee on a PIP or go down the discipline path, so I am now focused and ready to go. I need to get my office in shape!

      1. JHunz*

        Definitely. Nothing on an evaluation should ever be a surprise. If you’re not prepared to sit down with him and actually tell him that his evaluation will be affected by issues x and y, are they really important enough that they should go on it?

      2. Key Lime Pie*

        Yeah, it doesn’t have to be a big showdown, but you have to talk about it. I’ve said things like, “So it isn’t a surprise, I want to let you know that the issues we’ve talked about with your llama grooming errors will be reflected on your evaluation.”

    2. Midlife Tattoos*

      It’s really, really unfair to wait until reviews to bring up issues with your staff. If you haven’t outlined your expectations and given them a change to meet them, then smacking them at review time is just a bad move.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m going to disagree with the other commenters here. You say that you’ve had conversations with him where you’ve said you’re not happy with his performance. The fact that you’ve never explicitly said “and this will be on your evaluation” isn’t a problem. If you’ve been talking about the problems themselves, that’s sufficient warning.

      If I’m misunderstanding and you have not talked about the issues, then yes, that would be bad management on your part. But even that wouldn’t mean that you shouldn’t raise it in a review — you’d just need to acknowledge that you should have raised it earlier. You definitely cannot do a review where you don’t bring up serious issues that are on your mind just because you didn’t raise them earlier. The review needs to be honest. If you messed up and didn’t address those things earlier, then in the review you say something like, “As I was reflecting on your work for this review, I realized we should have been talking throughout the year about X but I want to surface it now.” And you take responsibility for not doing that, but you still address it.

      The idea that “nothing on a performance review should ever be a surprise” is absolutely advice managers should follow — but if you haven’t, you still need to be honest about serious issues now. (But you also need to figure out why you didn’t, and resolve to manage better in the future.)

      1. Teapot librarian*

        Thanks. I definitely need to manage better in the future as well, but you are reading me correctly that we have had conversations that have made clear that I’m not happy with his performance. This is helpful feedback.

        1. Academic Librarian*

          I am positive that you have communicated your expectations and Hoarder employee has been fairly and directly informed that they were failing to meet them. I know this because I have been following your comments with interest. It is a case study on the process. The evaluation is the beginning of your PIP process. The discussion that will happen will be the consequences to continuing down this path. Please meet with HR about next steps.

      2. JHunz*

        You’re the expert here, after all. I’m just a bit bitter from being surprised in my evaluations multiple years in a row (obviously different things). It always felt like he was looking for justification for the low merit increases he gave me rather than honestly assessing the year.

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      Which reminds me of another thing my company does well – if a manager doesn’t finish the annual evaluations for her employees, that manager is not eligible for any raise. We certainly get our evaluations, because all our managers want a raise too.

  52. Cacti*

    Tips for dealing with an annoying, low-performing co-worker who sits 3 feet from you? He uses baby talk, blows raspberries when he messes up a word in conversation, sticks his opinion in EVERYTHING…I’ve even tried to move to another area to work and he finds me and sits beside me so he can run his mouth. I can’t escape him.

    1. LALAs*

      Tell him that you are busy working and can’t listen to him. If he follows you when you move, tell him that you were moving to get away from his distractions because you need to focus on work. You are not being rude – he is.

    2. OhGee*

      I’ve had to work with someone like this. This person *cut their toenails while sitting at their desk, in an open plan office*, and also made lots of random noises throughout the day. They weren’t trying to be annoying, and I figured out what their deal might be when they started unironically using a fidget spinner during meetings. I ended up having to be very blunt with them: “X, please don’t cut your toenails at your desk.” “X, I am having a hard time concentrating when you make those noises.” (They had no idea they were making noise at all.) It wasn’t always successful, but it was better than sitting there stewing over my coworker.

    3. Waiting At The DMV*

      First, stop doing any polite responses you feel societally obligated to do – smiling, nodding, polite response, etc. Next, pick a few one-liners and practice saying them out loud. Some examples:

      Can’t talk now, gotta get this done!

      I’m super focused on this, let’s talk later!

      You can say it with a smile if you want; if it’s hard for you, you can add in a “sorry” the first few times, but I’d encourage you to phase out the “sorry” when you’re able.

  53. INeedANap*

    Anyone have experiences on the staff side of higher education?

    I got into my university with a part-time, temp position at a low grade. I added another part-time, temp position at a higher grade. With those experiences, after about 8 months, I got a full-time permanent position at the higher grade of my second temp job.

    I’ve been here at the permanent position about a year an a half. I’m not looking to leave, but an AMAZING opportunity appeared that I applied for. It’s two grades above my current one, but I am confident I have the skills needed to succeed. It’s a big stretch in terms of grade, but a minor stretch in terms of skill.

    I’m concerned that jumping two grades up may be the major obstacle in my path. Anyone have experience in this, or advice, or just general comments on that?

    1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      Ooooh. I unfortunately don’t have any advice via experience, but I’m similarly in a higher ed staff job (but in a non-academic department) that I love (hitting two years in November). I peruse the job postings sometimes and stuff that looks interesting is always tempting to apply for, but I’m happy enough where I am that I can be picky should I ever apply to anything new, which I’m very fortunate for.

      I think it honestly just depends on who is hiring. I want to think the skills should matter more than how high you’re jumping from. I got my current job largely because of a specific technical skill I had (I applied when it was in its third re-posting). However, I’m sure the candidate pool will also impact it if there are people closer to the level of the position. But in the end, I think it’s great you went for it and I don’t think it’s too much of a reach if you’re qualified. Good luck!

      1. INeedANap*

        I’m the same way about being picky – this is literally the only thing I’ve tried for. But it’s just (and I know this is a tricky phrase) my dream job!

        You’re probably right that the pool of candidates will be super important as to my chances. Thank you!

        1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

          That’s great though that you’ve come across your dream job! I’m super boring, but I don’t have a specific one myself (other than I love the kind of admin work that I’m currently doing, along with some design and social media), so I haven’t really come across anything yet that screams out to me.

          And no prob! Good luck again!

    2. Murphy*

      I find, at least at my university, that a) other than most professors, everyone’s background is really varied. If you have the skills, then that’s what they’re interested in more than anything else. b) Promotion from within, and moving around a lot within the university is so common. A lot of people who have been here for a while have held many different positions within the university. I got bumped up a grade less than a year into my job.

      So if it’s a good opportunity and you have the skills, I think it’s definitely worth applying to. I don’t think that by itself would be that much of an obstacle.

      1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

        I’ve noticed the same thing. I know so many people who’ve moved around to a plethora of different departments throughout their careers. I also wholeheartedly agree that skills seem to account for more than anything else, though years of experience seem to hold a decent amount of weight as well.

        Congrats on the grade bump! Unfortunately, there’s not much upward movement in my department, as I’ve been told by numerous co-workers, and have been strongly encouraged to look just to be able to move up, but like I told INeedANap, I’m lucky enough that I love my job so much, I’m going to be super picky whenever I decide to leave.

        1. Murphy*

          In case I gave the impression that I got bumped because was a superstar, the head of my unit started about a month after I did. There was a fair amount of restructuring in his first year, and I absorbed some of my former boss’s duties.

    3. Blue*

      Given that so many of us on the admin side of higher ed 1) are underpaid for the work we do and 2) have to move to a new department to get a promotion/decent raise, I don’t think this would be shocking to someone looking at your application. Just focus on making the case for why you’d be amazing at the job and don’t stress about how it’s classified!

  54. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    The good news is that I was offered the job that I interviewed for on Friday last week.

    The bad news is that I had to turn it down because we were too far apart on pay. Like, it would have been a cut to my current base pay. Oh hell no.

    I’ve never turned a job offer down before, but it was kind of weirdly empowering to state my worth unequivocally and refuse to take less then I know I deserve for what I bring to the table.

    1. DrWombat*

      Good on you for doing it though! I hope you are able to find a job that recognizes how much you are worth and doesn’t lowball you.

    2. Ree*

      I remember the first time I turned down a position and I told her it was because of the pay and she sounded SHOCKED. Absolutely flabbergasted, actually.
      I was like, your offer is 10%+ below two other offers I received AND your company has a FORMAL dress code in a major US city.
      I hope they raised the salary for that position for the person who accepted it.

  55. MeridaAnn*

    I’m keeping my office door half-closed and playing my music a bit louder than I normally would to make sure I don’t hear my coworkers out in the hall if they start talking some more about yesterday’s SC hearing. I know based on the way they’ve talked about similar events in the past and from discussions yesterday (the *least* frustrating part of that conversation being one of them reacting with genuine surprised when I told him that, yes, it’s sadly very normal for sexual assaults to go unreported) that I don’t have the emotional bandwidth to hear what they’ll have to say about it today.

    I heard one of them start on the subject this morning and I just had to block out the sound. Part of me feels like I should be trying to continue to speak up, but I’m the only woman on a team of 8 and I’m just tired of it. I just feel like I’m always being pulled into debates and arguments lately – about politics, about current drama in my friend group, about things going on at work. I just need a break from feeling like I’m in the middle of a battle, even if I know those battles are still going on around me.

  56. Sad and Tired*

    I’m a finalist for an admin position at a large organization. I’m confused because the individual who would be my manager and the HR person working on this job opening seem to not be on the same page. I know there’s nothing I can do about it, I’m just wondering if other people have had similar experiences.

    So last Friday morning I had my interview with three people, the manager, HR person, and one other person. At the end of the interview they told me they would be checking my references and had more interviews, and they should be contacting me in a about a week and a half. A few hours later, the manager calls me and tells me I’m their top candidate, they should have an offer ready in a little over a week, and to call her if I accept another offer before then.

    I was understandably excited and start telling my references to expect a call. I knew from reading this site to not get too set on it because there was no written offer yet. Fast forward to Wednesday, my references start getting called. That afternoon the HR person calls me for another reference, because the questions they ask are tailored towards managers, and I had one non-manager on my list. She tells me that they just finished interviewing the day before, they are proceeding with reference checks, deliberating about it early next week, and should have an answer by late next week.

    Long story short, the manager basically implied that the job is mine, and when I speak to the HR person everything still seems up in the air, although I am a finalist. Does this sort of discrepancy between management and HR happen often?

    1. Alianora*

      Yes, I think it’s pretty common for there to be a disconnect between HR and the hiring manager. In my experience, the manager is typically the one making the final decision, but HR needs to handle paperwork and make sure the correct procedure is followed. HR people also tend to be noncommittal until everything is finalized for sure. For instance, I was offered my last job 30 minutes after leaving the interview, but the HR person still needed to check my references.

    2. Jadelyn*

      This is not at all uncommon, tbh. HR tends to be more cautious because we’re more intimately familiar with the potential roadblocks that can happen at the tail end of the process (a candidate with a great resume who interviewed wonderfully has a red-flag reference, so suddenly we need to discuss and decide if we can move forward despite that; the hiring manager got overenthusiastic and didn’t stop to get their department head’s approval for the offer so we have to halt everything and get that first; stuff like that) since we’ve seen them happen multiple times before, whereas a lot of hiring managers (at least at my current org, ugh…) seem to get very excited to have their final candidate and can accidentally over-promise to the candidate before everything is finalized.

      I wouldn’t worry too much about it. HR is being cautious, as they should be, but it sounds like you’re The Final Candidate and barring sudden unforeseen problems like bad references, background checks if they do them, etc. you’ve probably got the job.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I had this happen too – the hiring manager told me at the end of my in-person interview that I was the top choice. When I left, the next interviewee was waiting, which felt awkward to me (the hiring manager had to know there were more interviews, felt a bit out of place for her to say I was it when she still had people to talk to!).

      I did get the offer directly from HR a week or so later, but I assume HR had no idea until the hiring manager submitted me as the top candidate which probably wasn’t until after all the interviews were done. If I had talked to HR before the offer, they probably would have been non-committal.

      So I would say it’s common, and also not to pin 100% on what the hiring manager said (it’s possible, if unlikely, that a later interviewee became the top choice). But I hope you get it!

    4. Alice*

      I believe (no evidence) that HR slow-walked the official offer to me, after the hiring manager + her boss offered me the job, to reduce the chance that I would hold out for a higher salary.
      It’s possible that I’m wrong and they are just slow, as opposed to intentionally slow.
      But yes, it’s not uncommon at all for HR to be way behind the hiring manager. They will eventually catch up unless there is organizational disfunction.
      Good luck!

  57. Some Sort of Management consultant*

    I’ve had a rotten week for mental and physical health reasons, and I felt so *defective* yesterday but it actually ended really well and I needed to share it with someone.

    I started out the day with a *hotel* breakfast (so nice!) with my manager and her other direct reports and we had the coziest time, mixing frank talk about salary with life advice about partners who don’t want to use moving companies.

    When we came back to the office, my manager told me that I’ve really blossomed this past month, and have been showing incredible growth and maturity and acting as an excellent role model, as well as really stepping up in terms of responsibility and delivery for/of client projects. I’ve been getting amazing feedback from people at the client’s, including a shout out in front of the entire 120 person team. I also got an email from an old partner at my firm, telling me how impressed she is by how well I’ve been doing and how happy she is I’m realizing my potential “because she’s always thought I was amazing and it’s great others are seeing that!”

    I then spent some hours finishing a proposal I’ve been the lead for (my first!) and I did it! I’m so impressed with myself because my biggest weakness is PowerPoint (ironic for a consultant) and I did this deck ALL on my own, start to finish! I don’t even care if we win or not, I’m so fricking pleased! I got some great feedback for some managers and a partner who were all really impressed by my work.

    After that, I spent some time with my co-instructor prepping for a course for new hires we’re teaching on Monday (my first!) and it felt awesome and it was such a pleasant meeting.

    After that, I meant to go home but was caught up in a conversation with some coworkers from my team, just joking around and winding down after the week, and I stayed a full half hour longer than I meant to because it was just so nice to hang out with them. I have such amazing colleagues that I’m always happy when I’m not at a client and actually get to see them! One day in the office and I felt all energized and renewed. How lucky is that?!

    And now I’m almost home and am gonna crash on the couch and do nothing *happy dance*!

    1. Auntie Social*

      Bella the Wondercat is doing the happydance samba in your honor!! Congratulations on being well and truly appreciated.

  58. Anon because I screwed up*

    Since “you, being unprofessional” was one of the links today, now seems like a good time to admit to you all that I wrote an email to a fellow professional (effectively a client) that read, in its entirety, “[Name], F— off.” and sent it out at some point this month.

    No, I’m not kidding, and yes, it really was that bad. I was under a metric ton of stress at work, my depression was at an all-time high, and the intent was to write an email, delete it, and feel better. The wrong button was pressed. Mistakes were made.

    I followed it up with a call to the person where I apologized profusely, and then wrote an extremely professional and apologetic email to them as well. I then had to call my boss, who was out of office, ON his wedding day, to get ahead of it and let him know what I did. I can’t make this stuff up. It was a Very Bad Day. Fortunately for me, my boss used it as a teachable moment, and the person in question seems to have put it behind them. I couldn’t have gotten more lucky with their responses here.

    All this to say… if anyone has a more recent “you, being unprofessional” stories that you would like to share, I would really, really like to believe I’m not alone in making terrible choices at work even with 5+ years of experience under my belt. Otherwise, please enjoy some schadenfreude at my expense!

    1. Nita*

      I’ve been tempted to do this a few times. Especially when I’m looking at my personal plans collapse because of a last-minute whatever. And then I’ll lock myself in the bathroom, take some deep breaths, and either accept I’m going to do the whatever, or work on writing back with a very polite no. But one time, I totally committed to something that I didn’t realize was a schedule conflict with a big personal thing. And then I was on the phone with my boss crying and asking if it’s not too late to back out. Yeah, crying. (It was too late to back out. Thankfully the folks I worked with did what they could to wrap up the work early so the personal thing was not completely destroyed. It all worked out.)

    2. Non-profiteer at your service*

      I was the Ex Director of a small non-profit and was sitting with the Board President and VP – who are both my ‘bosses’. They never really liked me, but I wasn’t backing down from the role and took it as a challenge. So we weren’t having a great conversation and I said, “No I’m not going to stop talking about this. You’re going to listen to me.” (can’t remember the topic) and slammed my hand on the table. The President stood up, and I was still sitting, and boomed, “You will not treat me this way. I won’t tolerate this!” I almost laughed, but I didn’t. We just sat there, I think they were more stunned about my actions rather than his – I guess being a woman, who can be temperamental, wasn’t who they thought they hired.

    3. LGC*

      There was the time I wrote an entirely different set of performance reviews and sent them in to my boss last year…

      (In my defense, I told my coworker that he would be asked to rewrite all of his reviews based off of prior experience and the fact that his scoring wasn’t supported by his comments. He acknowledged that…and then went ahead and submitted them anyway without my knowledge or revising. I was right.)

      (This is probably the pettiest thing I’ve done recently, but far from the only thing. Sometimes I wonder how I still have a job.)

    4. Close Bracket*

      The times I have dreamed of doing just that, but without the apologies …

      So, next time, don’t fill in the To field. Go ahead and write, look at it, feel satisfaction, save it. If you accidentally hit send, then it can’t go anywhere.

      1. Higher Ed Supervisor*

        yup, here you go. enjoy.
        I was managing a direct report employee who was on a PIP that was dragging out to be a year and half.
        Documenting was a part time job and each time I noted something that was truly egregious to HR, I thought, now can we let her go?
        Nope.
        Document, inform employee, interview employee, coach employee, investigate, document, coach employee- rinse repeats. AND
        because she was union, she had the right to file grievances. Each week at least 1 or 2 grievance meetings as well as investigative interviews with HR.
        These meetings took place in another building. She would weep copiously through every meeting. Tears streaming down her face as she described my abusive behavior (non-existent) I was continuously direct, polite, using a low neutral tone of voice, and that point, only spoke to her when I had a direct request or follow up except for meetings. We worked in an open environment. There was never any evidence of abusive behavior on my part. There was never any findings against me. All directives put in writing.

        Then one day, in the afternoon after one of these grievance meetings, we returned to our office, she was very upset. (and I was too) I said, “I can see that you are very upset. You seem to not understand that when you file grievances, the result of the filing is an investigation, an interview, documentation, and one of these meetings. This is your choice. You can stop doing this any time.”

        I regretted the words the minute they left my mouth. Called HR. Called my supervisor. Yes, she filed another grievance because I threatened her and she felt unsafe around me.

      2. Anon because I screwed up*

        Yup, I learned my lesson and actually went one step farther. I set up a rule to delay all emails not going directly to my boss by 2 minutes before they go out. So if I write anything I regret (or just need to correct) I can catch the email in my Outbox and fix and/or delete. I’d like to hope that I’d never make the same mistake again, but I have a bit of a hot temper, and depression twists your mind in funny ways.

    5. Handy Nickname*

      I threw my keys at my grand boss’s head.

      He likes to make sexist jokes sometimes, trying to get a rise out of people (mostly me, and mostly because it works). Well, one day I was standing in his office with my boss when I was heading out for the day, holding my car key, when he cracked a line about woman drivers and I snapped something like “Cut it out!” and hurled my keys into the wall behind his head.

      Fortunately (or unfortunately) I work in a place and industry that is very laid back about both halves of that interaction. He laughed, I picked up my keys, and it was never an issue.

      1. Handy Nickname*

        Edit to add: this was maybe a year ago. Although I don’t have that many years of work behind me… it’s definitely enough to know that you don’t just go around throwing things in people’s offices when you’re mad at them, even if they deserve it, and especially if it’s your boss. So my sympathies!

  59. Catleesi*

    I’m wondering if anyone has experience transitioning to working abroad. Some context: I’m American, and I currently work in study abroad at a state university. Sometime within the next few years I am interested in pursuing opportunities overseas. I have a Master’s in education, specializing in international education.

    I would appreciate any insight, or examples on what has worked for others. While it’s in the future, anything I can be aware of now to adjust my professional development would be appreciated.

    1. Anonymatic YoYo*

      I have several times, to the UK, but at least the language is common (well… some days I wonder). I came over once on a post bachelors short term visa, then a second time for school, and this third time with an EU partner. I did otherwise try all the “conventional” routes – networking with overseas contacts in my field, networking with overseas offices/looking for an internal transfer at a company and never got any traction in any direction. Finally we decided to just go for it (I really don’t recommend this approach!).

      This is a pretty broad question though – are there any bits you are more interested in learning about? For example, how to find opportunities or specific regions or working in a non-native language? That can change the answer/advice quite a bit. For more general advice I would suggest becoming an expert or gain international visibility/credibility in a key global issue/skill/though leadership. Network building cannot be understated,but I would also suggest patience too – it will take time, so good for you for thinking in advance!

      1. Catleesi*

        Thanks for commenting! I am probably most interested in an English speaking country, or somewhere in Europe at the moment – just because I doubt my ability to pick up another language quickly enough. Since I work in higher education, universities are a consideration for sure – or possibly organizations/companies partnering to offer these opportunities, but I would be open to a lot of different things. The school thing is a possibility if I wanted to do a PhD overseas but I’m not sure if that’s the route I want to go.

        Since your experience is in the U.K. and that is definitely an area of interest – do you know anything about higher ed opportunities or fields that are willing to hire from overseas generally?

        1. Mad Baggins*

          There are many English-speaking countries outside of Europe, or countries where the university language of business would be English. I know Asia best, but I’m thinking of places like Singapore, India, also places like Malaysia and the Philippines, and even countries like China, Japan and Korea. There are American universities with overseas branches (like Temple University in Tokyo). Jobs in Asia will be more tolerant of you not being able to speak the local language, and while there will be more of a cultural difference than in Europe, I’d argue you’d learn more about international education! You can make good money, live well, and travel a lot.

    2. Traveling Teacher*

      Beware of the UK at the moment! Depending on the Brexit fallout, you could find yourself without a job quickly or have inflation rise rapidly to eat your salary whole… Who knows, but I wouldn’t go looking for a job there until it’s clear where the pound and the British economy are headed.

      I’d check out EU countries that have English-language programs at their universities or high schools (as in content-based learning in English, not just English classes), like Denmark, which is among the EU countries that are actively recruiting people for jobs in their country.

      Also, because of Brexit, things are likely to get a lot more favorable for non-British, English native speakers looking for jobs in the EU…

  60. Back-office admin*

    A very senior, very influential staff member recently retired. He had planned to retire, but sickness brought it forwards. For many years he was our industry spokesperson, the face of the organisation, the rainmaker. There has been a lot of talk from customers about ‘how will the company remain viable without Steve?’ This is not at all a problem, as Steve built up a good team of staffers who are working well under the new guy.
    Steve has continued his speaking engagements, and is still very prominent in the industry. I have concerns that he is (more or less consciously) speaking negatively about his sucessor to our customers in informal chats. Something that people would brush off from someone else comes with a lot of weight from Steve.
    Any ideas on how to handle this?

  61. But you don't have an accent...*

    I have a job interview today for an internal position.

    It’s one that I would be really good at, as it plays to my strengths really well. The downside is that a) I’m a bit more new than everyone else that applied, b) I’m the only non-senior in my position who applied, and c) there were pre-interview exercises that one of which I had honestly never done before. It’s not something I’ve been avoiding, it’s just not something I’ve had the opportunity to do yet.

    I was feeling okay about it yesterday, but now I wish I had cancelled the interview or never applied (the pre-interview exercises were this morning, and the one I’d never done predictably went poorly, or at least it did in my mind).

  62. Jessen*

    So the government job changed who they had processing my background, so I have to re-enter all my info so they can restart running the check.

    I really want to scream right now.

    1. Jessen*

      Doesn’t help that current job is driving everyone up a wall. Employees don’t like being babysat. If all your employees are telling you that they have too much work to do and they feel like management is putting them in lose-lose situations, trust me, going on about making sure they’re aware of everything that needs to be done and checking in constantly that they’re working doesn’t go over well.

  63. Adela*

    My new employee does not seem to understand me. I give very specific instructions, but he either does not do what I ask or he makes more work for himself by doing things I never asked him to do. I even tried taking the time and writing out specific assignments for him, a check list of sorts, but the problem persists. I want to sit him down and have a conversation with him about how he would prefer that I communicate with him. For example, I noticed that he does not take notes. I want to ask him if he thinks that he would do better if he took notes. The problem is that he’s a little older than the person in this type of position tends to be. He has more years of experience in this industry. At the end of the day, everything he does falls under my name. Any tips on how to have this conversation is much appreciated.

    1. Alianora*

      I think having that conversation is a great idea! Sometimes the manager doesn’t make it clear that they’re addressing a problem, so the employee comes away thinking the manager was just checking on their preferences.

      If my manager had this problem with me, my ideal conversation would go like this:
      1. Manager states the problem clearly.
      2. We both brainstorm potential solutions.
      3. Either we decide on a course of action together, or the manager decides.
      4. After a week or two, we check back in to see if the solution is working or not.

      1. Reba*

        I agree with Alianora that you need to be clear that you are not *asking* his preferences but rather you are *telling* him that his current work is not up to snuff. That can still be done in a collaborative spirit. I feel like you can basically say what you said in your post, up to the note taking.

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Hmm… I’m not keen on this “I want to ask him if he thinks that he would do better if he took notes.” What happens when he says “Nah, I’m fine I’ll remember” ?

      I agree with the poster below in the steps but sometimes I’ll skip #2 and jump to #3. It probably makes me a tyrant in others eyes, but it’s one of those things I’m willing to be seen as an ogre on. I tell all of my employees they should almost always have something to write with at all times. You never know where things are going to come up and you don’t know how quickly you’ll be able to get back to your desk to write things down. If I’m speaking to managers I phrase it in a way that coaches them to use with their reports.

      In your case I think I’d jump to #3 and just tell Bob (your new employee) that he needs to be taking notes.
      “Bob, grab something to take notes with I want to discuss the TPS changes I need you to make”
      “Oh I’ll wait for you to get something to take notes with before we get started with our discussion on the Rubber Duck project”

      I would however have the larger discussion about communication and ask why he thinks there is a disconnect. This conversation is where you can bring up that you want him to take notes.

      Funny story about new employee/boss communication mismatch where I was the new employee.

      My new boss would give me directions on something he wanted done.
      I would paraphrase what I understood the direction to be.
      He would paraphrase back what he wanted done
      I would then restate the directions.

      It finally dawned on me that he thought I didn’t understand him because I was repeating it back to him. I thought I was getting it wrong because he would rephrase the same thing he just told me and I had repeated. We would get stuck in this loop for an embarrassing amount of time until I would just say ok and do what he asked. It was always what I thought he had said, so I know I wasn’t misunderstanding.

    3. Kathenus*

      Random alludes to this, but asking him to summarize what you’ve asked him to do at the end of the conversation could be helpful. Maybe also an honest conversation that the two of you don’t seem to be communicating well, specifics on what that looks like, and the question you mentioned about how he prefers you communicate to him so that he does the task correctly. I think it’s important that he knows that you are open to changing communication if needed, but that at the end of the day he needs to get the jobs done correctly so needs to take ownership of getting the information he needs, in a way he needs it, and that the responsibility is on him to do this. Good luck.

    4. Cassie the First*

      I wouldn’t ask him how he felt about taking notes (presumably he doesn’t think he needs to). I’d say “I’d like you to start taking notes when I give you tasks to do” (meaning “you need to take notes”). After he’s completed the assignment, you and he can then sit down and compare it to his notes to see where the problem is. Is it because he can’t remember your specific instructions or because he thinks you meant X but you said Y? That sort of thing. You wouldn’t need to do this post-mortem for every assignment but it’ll give you two an idea of what’s getting lost in translation.

      I’ve heard that some supervisors will say “you need to take notes because I’m not answering the same question twice” which I think is a bit harsh. Unless the employee is so cocky that they refuse to take notes, I’d choose a softer touch. Also, it would be good, if the employee comes back with a question that was already discussed – to say “let’s take a look at your notes” and again, see what the employee is and isn’t writing down.

  64. Fiona*

    Has anyone here used a career coach with any success? I can’t tell if I should be going to a therapist or a career coach. Five years ago I shifted careers in a way that I semi-regret. Not the shift itself necessarily, but the timing and the lack of strategy, which was mostly the product of undiagnosed anxiety. I basically started from the bottom in my new field and I’m not sure if I want to stick it out. Without going into too many details, I’m at a crossroads. Therapy is expensive but might be worth it. My partner thinks a career coach might be more productive at the moment, but it’s hard to know who is legit.

    Thoughts?

    1. Baker Street*

      Therapy for your anxiety. A career coach can’t work with that.
      Career coach to move to a new career. A therapist can’t work with that.

      I would do therapy before career but they can be done in tandem, but I wouldn’t do career before therapy.

      Many career coaches use tests, assessments to work with you and your anxiety may play a focal point in where you might be best, professionally, in the future.

      Psychology Today has a great list of providers, based on your location and you can find out a lot of information about the provider before you go (and set up an interview with them before choosing one). https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists

    3. Holly*

      I have to say, a licensed therapist >>>> career coach. Many therapists have experience with job/career related anxiety. Anyone can just one day call themselves a career coach. Plus, therapy could help you work through feelings of regret, your anxiety issues, etc. Career coaches do not have experience with this. If cost is the issue, do your research – many therapists take insurance, and some have scaled payments so that it’s based on what you earn/what you can afford. Also, it’s a priority. Mental health is really important.

    4. Armchair Analyst*

      Also — be kind to yourself.
      Five years ago 2013 we (well, me, personally) still emerging from financial downturn and you did what you thought was best under the circumstances.
      So yeah, now is a good time to course-correct and adjust expectations.

    5. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Just wanted to say as someone struggling with almost the exact same question – thank you for asking!

  65. Amylou*

    I have a colleague who takes things overly personal. I’m working on multiple projects for the team and I need to ask for input from several team members. But somehow that one colleague takes it as: I provide input A so necessarily the input A will go into the end product, and if not I will act incredibly hurt. Our manager will sometimes think B is better than A, so I end up working out B instead of A. I’m totally fine with that. But when I mention manager told me to go with B, my colleague gets all huffy, doesn’t want to even listen to why manager chose B (sometimes there are good reasons!), and will just be hurt the rest of the day/week, and generally have the attitude of a whiny, moody teenager.

    Have you ever worked with someone like that? Is there any way to handle them? I know manager has talked to them about other attitude issues which didn’t seem to help, but it’s unlikely they’ll be let go, so I anticipate being stuck in this situation for the foreseeable future. Any tips, language, strategies (besides “OMG GROW UP”) are welcome!

    1. LGC*

      20 of them!

      Well, not 20. But yeah, some people do take things personally. I’m a fan of giving them some space – to be honest, I’m like that myself sometimes, and I might just need a moment to process things.

      This isn’t necessary, but one thing that might help is…validating once in a while. I don’t mean that you need to open yourself up to your colleague’s frustrations entirely, but just say that you know it’s disappointing.

      (I’m in a slightly different position – I had to tell my team to shape up a lot over the past week, so I had a meeting to say, “Hey, look, I know I’m being the no-fun police, but X, Y, and Z. I know this is a lot to take in, so I want you guys to think about it for a bit if you can before asking me or co-supervisor questions.”)

      1. Amylou*

        20! Wow…

        I hadn’t considered a little validation once in a while. I would be hesitant as I would feel it could open up the conversation in a direction I can’t and don’t want to go to. But I will definitely experiment and try it out. I tend to be the kind of person that will stop the conversation and give people space.

    2. Ender*

      Are you being clear with them about what you are asking for? I would be pretty annoyed if I worked hard on something that then wasn’t used. If I had known it was going into a competitive process I would have prepared it differently or might have declined to participate in the competition because I have actual work to do that needs to be done, not just used as a comparator for someone else’s work.

      1. Amylou*

        It’s not really preparing something, just reviewing things I prepared/someone else prepared and giving comments if necessary. It doesn’t take a massive amount of time either, like having two different options and giving preferences/opinions on one over the other. It doesn’t take a huge amount of time, and I’m pretty sure they’d be just as peeved off if they weren’t included…

    3. Kathenus*

      I stole a phrase from a former boss, and when getting feedback from my team we discuss the difference between having a voice and having a vote. That I truly want and listen to ideas and feedback, but that at the end of the day all of the information will be used to help inform the final decision. Being clear that giving feedback means it will be listened to and evaluated, but not necessarily acted upon in all cases, has helped to set the right stage for the discussions.

  66. Exhausted*

    I am the Assistant CS Manager of a small dept and have an employee who takes 3-4 times as long on the phone as everyone else to explain applications for our product. She ALWAYS takes them to our website and reads the instructions to them. My feeling is people do not want to be read to, especially something they can do on their own time. We’ve spoken to her before about it and she gets better, but has recently started spending longer and longer on the calls. Sometimes even I forget what the original question was by time she’s done. (we are close in proximity so I can hear her side of the conversations) She is also very much a person who thinks what she does and how she does it is correct. I find it hard to manage her. Side note: her first day, within 30 minutes of arriving, she made a comment that she had lots of ideas on how to improve the place. Any suggestions?

    1. Midlife Tattoos*

      I would think about this in the context of is she handling her fair share of calls? If she’s not, and you can demonstrably show that to her (number of calls she takes vs coworkers), then you’ve got a clear starting point. Regardless of whether she thinks she’s doing things correctly, what matters is whether you do. If you don’t, you have to outline that for her and what your expectations are.

    2. Bagpuss*

      How have you addressed it in the past?
      Possibly you need to be firmer or clearer e.g. tell her (is it possible that she is hearing what you say as a suggestion not a direction?)
      BE explicit – be clear that she needs to be more efficient and to stop reading the website to people unless the explicitly ask her to.

      As you sit next to her, I’d also suggest that you try to speak to her in the moment – immediately she ends the call, so you can explain that that specific call was too long. Maybe ask her what the original question was and tell her specifically how she should have responded and how long you would expect it to take to resolve.

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      If the CS reps’ calls are recorded, is there any way you can compare recordings of her calls to her co-workers’ calls over handling the same type of customer service question? If you’re having difficulty nailing down exactly how she should be handling a certain type of issue over the phone, sometimes having one or two examples for her to listen to might be more helpful to her. Maybe she’ll then learn that she doesn’t really have to “hand hold” customers that much, or that there are approaches her colleagues are using that had never occurred to her.

      If this is not possible, maybe it would be helpful to you, before sitting down with her, to take some time to listen to some service calls conducted by your best 2-3 employees. What, in your mind, makes them “good”? Listening to them will help you develop some approaches/behaviors that you can give to her, to show her what good performance on the phone should look like (e.g., how much/little time is spent on opening pleasantries; what kinds of questions, or the order of questions, will help her get to the core of the customer problem quickly; how much time Question Type X should take; read the website instructions only under Y or Z circumstances; etc.)

      Good luck!

  67. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I’m job searching, and I’m having trouble framing my resume in the right way for the positions I want. A large reason for my job hunt is that my current position has drifted far, far afield of what I was originally hired to do. I have plenty of accomplishments, but they are increasingly not at all related to what my job was supposed to be and what I actually want to be doing. I don’t know whether I should focus on these totally unrelated accomplishments or on the more mundane “duties” that are at the core of my job, but actually related to what I want to be doing.

    My organization has decided to de-prioritize these core functions, so I’m just doing them at the minimum acceptable level to meet contractual requirements, while the bulk of my time is now spend on other tasks unrelated to what I was hired for (and what my PhD and the rest of my job history shows). I think I can talk about this in a relevant way in my cover letter, but how do I frame it in the bullet points of my current job??

    To top it off, they also re-titled me to something that sounds neither like what I was hired to do, nor what I’m actually doing (and is not terribly impressive on its own). I feel like I got stuck in a job I don’t want due to shifting corporate priorities, but now my resume doesn’t reflect my actual skill set or where I want to go with my career.

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      Not sure where you are but I contacted my grad school and got connected to a resume writer who for $125/hour @3 hours helped me with my resume. Hope that helps.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I was in the same position as you – the work I was hired to do kind of went away, my latest job title is misleading with respect to my actual skills and degree, and my more recent accomplishments were not what I wanted to continue working on.

      The advice I got was:
      Have a summary section at the top that describes you as the role you want (Expert in X with Y years of experience in X-related skills), and/or a skills section that outlines your best skills relevant to the kinds of jobs you want. This sets the impression of you being the right person for X type of jobs.

      For the experience bullet points, there are a couple of strategies. One is to give equal weight to the mundane but relevant tasks as well as to the non-relevant accomplishments, listing the relevant ones first. Another is, if it’s possible, to reframe the accomplishments in the language of the relevant type of work or highlight the relevant tasks/skills used in getting those accomplishments.

      Finally, if there’s not much you can do to “spin” your most recent job, keep those job bullets limited and include more of the job history even if it’s more than 10 or so years. I was told this as a 40-something because I had some highly relevant work history from 15-20 years ago – I had sent a short and a long version of my resume to someone with hiring experience for advice and they were like, why aren’t you including these older jobs on all your resumes?? In some cases, showing a longer history of relevant experience, esp for mid- to senior level positions, outweighs the potential risk of age discrimination.

      Hope this helps!

  68. Loopy*

    I’m in one those positions where I am the only person who can do my job and it’s very deadline driven. I’m on a large team and everything I do is interconnected so I rely on others to do their part first. So no flexibility.l either.

    Yesterday a cluster of massive deadlines got pushed by months… To right around my wedding at the end if February. So now my wedding sits right smack dab in the middle of pure insane, crunch time. I hadnt yet requested time off because a) I’m new (started end of June) and didn’t have the time built up yet and b) was only planning on taking Friday, Monday and Tuesday (seemed minor at the time…) and now I’m panicked. My boss is off until Oct 9. Would requesting it as soon as he gets back be unreasonable? I’m so miserable and worried. Please advise. I haven’t taken any sick days or other PTO and haven’t had an issues so far but… I’m still new and worried about it!

    1. Sharkie*

      I am so sorry!
      I don’t think it is unreasonable to discuss it with him since it is a pre-planned major life event. I would frame it as “I just wanted to remind you that I am getting married the weekend in the middle of all these deadlines so I will be unreachable on these dates. Is there anything I can do ahead of time to ensure everything goes smoothly on those 3 days?”
      On the other hand, the deadlines might get pushed back again so it can become a non-issue.

    2. ACDC*

      I would let your boss know ASAP. With this much notice, a reasonable human would be fine with it and be able to help you plan and/or make accommodations for the workload.

      Also, is there a way you can complete some of the project early? That way you won’t have a bunch of deadlines all at the same time. Might not be possible, but worth looking in to.

    3. Reba*

      If you want to feel like you’ve done something, I think you could go ahead and email your boss about it, like, let’s talk about this when you’re back. Remember, this is still months away, and it’s your wedding! If your boss is at all reasonable, this will be fine.

    4. Ender*

      Firstly stop panicking – the deadlines will probably shift again! Secondly, tell your boss now about the wedding and frame it like “we need to pull these deadlines to a week earlier” so everything is done before the wedding.

  69. Crazytown*

    I am not happy at my current job. I want out of here so badly. I’ve only been here a year. I do have a really good lead on another job with another agency that will be a promotion and leadership opportunity. Due to the nature of government, it may take a few months for that opportunity to come to fruition. Next week, an internal promotion will be listed. I don’t know if I should apply. I believe the position will go to me or one other person. The money would be good, but I really don’t want to stay here. I’m not even sure if I want to do the work if I’m promoted. It will probably be another level of miserable. That said, do I pass on career growth and opportunity just because it might be terrible. It’s already terrible, so do I have anything to lose?

    1. Four lights*

      Remember that you don’t have a crystal ball, so don’t let the fact that you’re hopeful to leave soon stop you from applying. It could be that the lead falls through and it takes a while for you to find another position. Even if you get hired for the new position, you can still leave if you find a job somewhere else.

  70. Jadelyn*

    Hi all, hope this gets in early enough to get some eyes on it. TL;DR: I need advice from people who are familiar with hiring in academia, for a friend who has an interview next week.

    I have a dear friend who’s got a job interview for admin assistant to the dean of admissions at a local college on Tuesday. He asked for my advice because I’m in HR and do hiring, but I know that academia is kind of its own world when it comes to employment norms, so I cautioned him that my advice may not be as helpful as usual. But I think we’ve got some regular commenters who are in academia, so – does anyone who’s in academia, or has done hiring in that world, have any advice for someone interviewing for a support staff position?

    It’s a panel interview with 5 VIPs of some type or other. They’ve already asked for 3 letters of reference, which my friend has gotten – he was thinking of getting some pocket folders and putting his resume and the 3 letters in those, then handing them out to the interview panel. Would that be overkill? In a regular business environment I’d say it would be, a bit, but…again, academia.

    Thanks so much for any advice you guys have to give – my friend has been out of work for awhile after his previous employer (of 15+ yrs) closed and laid everyone off, and it’s been a struggle trying to get work again so I want to help him as much as I can.

    1. PieInTheBlueSky*

      At my school it would be overkill. We have our applicants upload documentation into the Applicant Tracking System, and everyone on the hiring committee has access to the system to view the documents of all the applicants before and after the interviewees are selected. In addition, right before the interview there is another chance for the hiring committee to review the applicant’s materials. So the pocket folder idea really wouldn’t be necessary, but I suppose it couldn’t hurt to bring a few extra copies of the resume and letters just in case.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I’m not sure this college uses an ATS – he told me they want him to bring in a copy of his resume for each panel member and 3 letters of reference, which sounds like they’re asking for everything on paper handed to them in physical form. In that case, would the folder thing make more sense?

        1. PieInTheBlueSky*

          This school seems to do some things very differently than ours. A candidate bringing required
          application materials directly to the interview that haven’t first been provided to HR would be unusual here. So I hate to say anything definitive. Also, I imagine schools can be very different. I’m at a rural community college, for what it’s worth.

          Disclaimers aside, my personal reaction is that this would still feel like overkill to me, but in the “unnecessary like fancy resume paper is unnecessary” sense. If I was on the hiring committee, it wouldn’t hurt him but it probably wouldn’t help much either.

    2. Seriously?*

      Did they tell him how to submit the letters of reference? In my experience it is more common for your references to send the letters directly to the specified person, not hand them to you to be delivered at the interview.

      1. Jadelyn*

        From what he said to me yesterday, it sounds like they asked him to bring the letters to the interview on Tuesday.

    3. OhGee*

      I just went through an interview process at an Ivy League university. I met *twelve* people during the process and every single one had a printed copy of my application materials, distributed by the department coordinator. I *still* brought copies of my resume, just in case, but I never had to take them out of my bag. I think it’s worth having copies of the resume on hand, but not the letters.

  71. AnonEmu*

    I keep winding up in jobs where I’m expected to clean up other people’s messes with little/no support – how do I keep this from happening at my next job?

    I am currently working in my first post-PhD job. When I was interviewing for my PhD, I picked “Simon”, who had a good reputation and who gave me examples of suggested projects that really excited me. When I started , I wound up on a project that was cleaning up/finishing someone else’s half-finished work with no real training / support. Simon was hands-off to the point where it got him in trouble with other professors and I wound up the student of another professor, “Sylvester”, in all but name. I spent months bringing up concerns with one area of the project being spearheaded by other researchers, and he kept saying I could handle it but instead I got steamrollered and months of my work went unused. Sylvester’s support and assistance, as well as that of some other professors, were the reason I finished. But I finished without a lot of the training and experience I needed.

    When it came time to interview for jobs, I specifically told people “I am coming here with X experience, I want to prioritize gaining these specific skills”. I interviewed with “Eira”, who promised training in the skills I needed, and while the position was lower pay than I wanted, I felt the reasonable work hours promised as well as the chance to learn the skills I felt I needed made it worth it. I was told I was not going to be thrown to the wolves. 6 months in, and not only are the hours significantly longer than promised, but I had to deal with a coworker actively sabotaging me, chronic understaffing, and instead of doing what I took the job to do, I was again cleaning up other people’s messes with no real support. Eira also likes to call people out in front of everyone, and has a very unpredictable temper. She regularly badmouths previous employees and students, so I doubt I’ll be getting a good reference.

    I’m having regular panic attacks, I’ve lost at least a pants size due to gut issues I’m still trying to figure out but are at least partially stress, I’m not sleeping, and the last time I was this depressed, I almost quit grad school. Eira keeps promising it will get better but it hasn’t, and while I get she’s stressed as well, I was basically told that some of the skills that I was 100% up front about taking the job to get, I won’t be getting, and the project I specifically took the job to do isn’t happening. My mental and physical health are at the point where it’s concerning my family/friends.

    I am leaving here as soon as I can find a new job. I have the excuse of the funding for the position ending earlier than expected (also true) as a reason, but really I am getting away from Eira. How do I make sure my next job isn’t just more of the same, and that I’ll actually get to do my own work or at least get the skills I want to gain? I don’t want to badmouth past bosses in interviews, but at the same time, my health can’t handle another job like this. What questions should I be asking going forward/what should I be doing differently here?

    1. Bea*

      I can only offer sympathy. My career is clean up for every position I’ve taken. Thankfully I gain skills during the reverse engineering of the mess I’m cleaning so I actually enjoy the process. I’ve never had much training in my field.

      The sad thing is the people who are hiring you aren’t going to be forthright all the time. They’re vision is skewed at what they want and not necessarily if you’ll get what you want out of the position.

    2. Buu*

      I don’t work in your industry but this is where networking can help, if you have friends who have worked in these places before they may be able to recommend good places to work or tell you where you should pass on.

      Also don’t accept low pay again.

    3. Marthooh*

      This problem sounds like it can only be answered by those who are familiar with the reputations of people and organizations in your specific field. Try asking Sylvester and maybe the other helpful professors from your program.

      The other thing is, potential employers focus on what you can do for them, not so much what they can do for you. That’s just the nature of the beast!

    4. TL -*

      It’s academia and sadly none of those situations are unusual – you need to reach out to your system and get a list of good/bad PIs to work under and vet everywhere you interview and/or apply with your network. Ideally, your prof would be able to open a few doors/put you on the right track but they have to be fairly well-connected for that to be effective.

      1. AnonEmu*

        Thanks for the comments – I appreciate them. Sylvester is decently well-connected, and he has been sending some leads my way. I’ve also been reaching out to people on my own, but a lot of this stuff is whisper networks re rep, etc, and also “Simon” had a great rep and probably still does – I was the only graduate student he treated like this.

        What I’m also concerned is that I won’t get a good reference from this job. The stress and burnout has made health issues that were in remission flare up, which makes me perpetually exhausted, and I can’t do the usual tips for recovering from burnout because everyone is burnt out, my boss included. Today, I was in a situation where a minor crisis popped up, and significant delays happened because I couldn’t figure out the best course of action – I knew that no matter what I did, my boss would be mad at me, and so I felt paralyzed and now not only is my boss likely to be mad at me, but my coworkers aren’t happy with me either. My therapist wants me to take a mental health day or few, but my boss has spoken openly and in a very ableist manner about mental health issues in the past. I feel like such a burden to my coworkers and this job is exacerbating every mental health issue I have.

        I don’t know how to pre-emptively manage the fact that I won’t get a good reference other than to admit that I took a job to grow my skills in a new direction, I tried my best, but I wasn’t suited for it. But the other half of that was perpetual understaffing, 12 hour workdays with every other weekend off (subject to change at a moments notice), and the fact that I got none of the promised training. I am at the end of my rope here.

        1. buu*

          I wouldn’t normally suggest this but don’t tell them it’s a mental health day? Just phone in saying you’re sick and can’t come in.
          As for references can you have Sylvester act as one?
          Also if you get to an interview and someone asks about bad job try and spin it positively.
          “I took the job as I was excited to learn about xxx, but unfortunatly the situation shifted with funding and we ended up doing a lot of crunch and they weren’t able to organise the training. I did however learn a lot of things I wasn’t expecting to. I’ve taken on a lot of extra work and finished up project xxx and project y when my colleagues got too busy. In fact the situation with funding means I’m not likely to have my contract renewed so I’m looking for a new position.”

          They also have to be careful giving you a bad reference as it may inadvertently confirm bad rumours about them. If they have a rep of badmouthing people, and they see a bad reference it may give them pause for thought.

          As for your boss yelling at you no matter what, if you can’t change the outcome just do your best. You won’t deserve it, being yelled at is scary but if your boss will do it anyway…it seems kind of ridiculous. They can throw all the Kobayashi Maru scenarios at you they want, you’re going to be free of them soon. Let them drown in their own toxicity.

          1. AnonEmu*

            I am lucky that I am less than a year out from my PhD, so my dissertation commitee have all agreed to be references, Sylvester and Simon included (Simon still has a good reputation overall, it’s just how he handled my situation that got him some firm talking-to’s from his colleagues within the department). I explained re the funding, and confidentially gave Sylvester some more details re how poor a fit this place was for me. And it definitely doesn’t help that everyone is so stressed and burnt out from the understaffing that stupid mistakes happen (and I made one this weekend, which will be my fault when I get in trouble).

            I really like your phrasing re how to deal with this job coming up in interviews, thank you! If nothing else, I learned exactly how much daily chaos I can handle, and that I thrive in more structured environments overall or ones where I can create my own structure (as I had to do in grad school).

  72. Not My Regular Username*

    My colleague spends a lot of time reading other people’s draft work and not asking the creators about it. I’ve noticed this when I’ve been at her workstation and saw a project of mine open on her monitor. This happens very, very frequently. Is it just me, or is there something a bit off about this?

    We save most of our in-progress work on a shared drive, and standard practice for everyone else is that we share work first wit other people working directly on a project or our manager, and then share with others on the team when *we’re* ready for them to react to it. We mostly don’t get too involved in each other’s work until it’s brought to a team meeting or we specifically ask each other for input.

    The colleague is question is a long-time employee, so it’s not as though she’s plausibly reading other people’s work for on-boarding purposes. She is also a contrarian who typically disagrees with others’ approaches to the work, but rarely if ever provides input in a constructive manner.

    1. Seriously?*

      If she were new I would say that she might just be trying to see how the process works and seeing work in several stages is particularly useful for that. However, since she is a long-time employee that seems unlikely. Is it possible that she is supposed to be reading though drafts to flag serious issues but doesn’t say much because everything is usually ok?

      If you are uncomfortable with it, you could ask your boss. It doesn’t seem like there is much you can do about it though. The most plausible explanations are either that it is in fact part of her job or that she is just nosy. While a bit off, it doesn’t sound damaging.

    2. CTT*

      Could she be looking for projects similar to hers so she knows what sort of language or structure to use? (Or since she’s a contrarian, looking for what not to use.) In the industry I’m in, that’s pretty typical, so it doesn’t sound strange to me (currently with three several years old documents open to figure out how to word something), but if it’s really unusual in your industry you could bring it up like Seriously? suggested.

    3. LilySparrow*

      Is she interfering with the work at all, or giving unsolicited input? Is she derailing meetings based on things she read in old drafts, or making your work more difficult in some way?

      If she’s just quietly reading things on a public drive and thinking contrarian thoughts, it’s a little odd but I don’t see how it’s harming anything, or why you should care.

    4. ronda*

      i had a coworker telling that she found out something by looking at some files on our server. this coworker has some extra time on her hands, so is reading some stuff out there…. just being a bit nosy I think.

      If your coworker is not doing anything with it, I am not seeing a problem with it. If she is making some trouble for you with what she is reading…. then that might be a problem to address.

  73. HRH Princess PP Monkeybutt*

    Same Suit, Second Interview…

    Next Wednesday I have a second interview! YAY! A big thank you to Amy and this site and the lovely commenters.

    I wore my suit to the first interview. The second interview is with the same two women. Is it going to look weird to wear the same suit again? I would be wearing a different blouse/shell underneath and different jewelry.

    1. Seriously?*

      Is the suit distinctive in some way? Most suites look the same to me. I would say it is unlikely that the interviewers would be able to tell if you are wearing the same suit or not weeks later unless it was a non-standard color. I also don’t see why they would care. If it were the next day it might make it seem like you were wearing dirty clothes, but that is obviously not an issue in this case.

    2. Catleesi*

      Unless it’s an unusual color or pattern, I doubt they will even notice and changing up the details I think would be absolutely fine

      That being said, if the suit is a unique color or pattern (like a red jacket or something) – that might stick out more and I would suggest maybe changing up either the bottom or the top to make it a little different. Good luck!

    3. Amylou*

      I don’t think I’d notice if you were wearing the same suit (assuming it’s a kind of neutral navy or black?). Would be different if it was a very noticeable dress or distinctive suit colour. Also, if I had interviewed multiple people I wouldn’t really remember exactly what they wore, but then again, that’s not something I notice on a regular basis really! Don’t worry and wear your awesome suit :)

    4. Holly*

      For the future I would definitely recommend investing in a second suit – you never know when you’re going to need it (what if you had a spill in the morning of?)

      But if it’s a plain navy/black suit with nothing that stands out in particular, and you’re accessorizing differently and wearing a different blouse, there’s definitely noooo issue with that at all.

    6. Could be Anyone*

      I often joke that people could wear the same suits with different shirts every day and no one would ever notice. Personally, I couldn’t tell you what I wore yesterday, let alone anyone else. I think you’re fine unless it was a bright color or pattern, but I’m going out on a limb and guessing that your sole suit is not.
      Good luck!

  74. Recently Laid-off*

    Recently unemployed, and applying to many jobs! A lot of universities in my area are looking for admissions counselors. I more than meet the experience needed (though I have never worked in a collegiate setting) and have yet to be contacted for any interviews. It is my understanding that academia takes its time when hiring, and this is supposedly the busy time of the year for admissions. How long should I expect to wait? If the problem is with me, I suspect it would be in my cover letter, what language should I use or skills should I highlight in said cover letter? Thank you!

    1. CaitlinM*

      What do you mean by more than meet the experience needed? If you have not worked in a collegiate setting, I don’t think you’re going to get very far with college admissions jobs. My husband has a masters degree in higher ed and still can’t get in the door in college admissions (would be a career change after 8 years working in education/nonprofit). My experience is that colleges want to hire young college grads into these roles if they’re entry level, and if they’re not entry level they hire people with college admissions experience.

      1. Recently Laid-off*

        My experience is similar to his. Six years in education and non-profit. The jobs I have been applying for list a four year degree and two years of experience in education or non-profit jobs.

  75. Non-profiteer at your service*

    For me I didn’t have much challenging in the work, pace, requirements, or expectations. I enjoy it very much, especially working from home. I think the challenge is changing your mindset from being a ‘team’ player to being the individual who may be working on the peripherals. Depends on how the contract is written and where you carry out the work.

    Learning how to write and/ora review a contract. Quoting your time on a project, especially when the contract isn’t particularly explicit in what they want other than (X) number of this.

    Paying estimated taxes on time. I hate doing it – not time consuming per se – but it reminds you how much you really pay in taxes when you personally have to do it every quarter. Being knowledgeable of the IRS small business expenses and requirements. Pub 535 https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-publication-535

    Keeping those you work with/for – clients or the employer – on pace with what you’re doing and in communication when you need someone to make a decision. Knowing how they like to communicate and receive their updates. Good time to explore your choice in project management platforms if your clients don’t have their own that they use with you. Mine is pretty simple, I use Outlook Planner because I have an Outlook email with the non-profit I contract with.

    Are you good for working from home or a place that isn’t a traditional workspace? If you need a workspace, join a cowork and get a dedicated desk so you have an ‘anchor point’ for your work. Also it’s good if you bring the client to you.

    1. Non-profiteer at your service*

      DISREGARD – not a question ** This was supposed to be a response to someone’s post *** Apologies

  76. Beatrice*

    I have to have a difficult conversation with someone who reports to me today, and I’m nervous about it, but also mad.

    He asked me for a change in his work schedule a few months ago. The specific change he asked for would be considered a perk – it’s not a perk anyone else had ever had at the time, and his work was just okay and didn’t rate an unprecedented perk, so I told him no. The circumstances that prompted the request last time have occurred again, and I found out he’s been doing exactly what I told him he couldn’t do last time, he just didn’t ask this time.

    I talked to my boss about it, and he told me I needed to have a very direct conversation with my employee about it, but he said that if I thought I could swing the change, I should, but it’s up to me. There’s no business reason why I can’t give him what he wants. And we’ve recently started giving a similar perk to someone else, so it’s not unprecedented anymore (that change is new enough that my employee doesn’t know about it – there’s no chance he thought it was okay for him because it’s okay for someone else). I just really hate that he took it without asking me, and I hate the idea of giving it to him now, under these circumstances. I’d like to chew him out for taking liberties and then tell him he needs to go back to working a standard schedule. Grrrr.

    1. Rey*

      Why not explain it to him in those terms? “This change is considered a perk, and right now, your work doesn’t merit that. This has been furthered by (current situation of taking liberties). In order to receive perk, you need to do X and Y for 6 months (or whatever).”

    2. Seriously?*

      I would probably tell him that his actions have seriously damaged your trust and that you will revisit his request in X months if he demonstrates that he can reliable work the schedule he is given.

    3. Det. Charles Boyle*

      Why are you being so stringent about the schedule? It sounds like it wouldn’t have a negative impact on his work, just that you are The Person In Charge and don’t want to make his life easier. Why not make work/life a little bit better for someone if you have the power to do it? Be the generous, compassionate manager and not the cruel one who makes life miserable for others just because she can.

      1. irene adler*

        Or, give the employee the schedule change – provided -employee meets some work goals you set up for him. Include a time frame for these goals to be met. Then, if the goals are not met by the expected date, the perk is revoked. Make it clear employee must continuously earn the perk.

      2. Beatrice*

        My team has more flexibility than the overall department we work in – everyone else has important coverage reasons why they need to arrive at a certain time, stick to a lunch schedule, and leave at a certain time. My team has core hours through most of the business day, but an hour of flexibility in start/end times. We’re a newly created team carved out of that department to support them – they lost front-line people so we could consolidate back-end work. When he first asked, we were still trying to prove ourselves, and demonstrating that we were adding value and making productive use of our time was important. Right or wrong, with this crew, there’s a butt-in-seat time element to that. Now that we’re a few months along, we’ve had a chance to build credibility as a team, and it’s a different story, but it chaps my hide that he didn’t bring it up again if he wanted to revisit it. He has a pattern of conveniently misinterpreting/disregarding my instructions on a more minor scale, actually, that I need to address moreso than his actual schedule.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          With that pattern, it sounds like this is a guy who will ask for an inch and take a mile – he’s already doing it. I like Rey’s wording, the schedule change *is* a perk that he hasn’t earned. Fill in the blanks with the specifics of how he’s been disregarding instructions (including the schedule thing), and how he needs to stick to his given schedule and improve his work for however long before you can revisit the schedule change request.

          FTR I’m all for schedule flexibility and I myself wouldn’t take a job where that wasn’t an option, but I fully support making it contingent on proving yourself reliable and a source of good performance first.

    5. PB*

      I agree with your boss that you need to have a very serious conversation, but I do not agree that you should make the change. The employee behaved badly, and it sounds like he *knows* he behaved badly. He shouldn’t get rewarded for that. I think Seriously’s advice is spot on.

    6. persimmon*

      Maybe you could consider the schedule change separate from the discipline issue. On one hand, think about whether it is practical to change his schedule. At the same time, let him know that dishonesty is a very serious issue, that you will be watching for any similar behavior in the future, that it may appear as a negative on his end of year evaluation, etc.

  77. RoseTico*

    Has anyone been on a interview panel where the the hiring manager made the final decision disregarding the rest of the panel’s top choices and/or not even discussing the candidates with the rest of the panel. I recently was on an interview panel and after it was done, I pretty much felt like I wasted an entire day because it was clear that the manager had their mind set up from before the interviews started who they wanted, even though there were much MUCH better candidates, they’re going to go with that one person. The other folks on the panel (including myself) all had a different set of top 3 candidates, none of us chose that one person yet there was no discussion about this, the manager wanted to go home after interviews ended and called it day. I have sat on other panels before and we always discussed things afterwards to make sure we were all on the same wavelength. Is what happened this time around very normal?

    1. Blue*

      I don’t know if it’s *normal* but it definitely happens. Just depends on the hiring manager, I think. I’ve only been on one panel like this, and the hiring manager went through the motions of asking for feedback but listened to absolutely none of it. Her mind was already made up. (The hire turned out to be a disaster, naturally.)

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      Yup. Director override the search committee. The committee members were so upset they wrote a memo to the director expressing a recommendation for ANYBODY BUT THIS GUY. The director slapped down the committee and hired the guy, who was an idiot and whom I had to fiend the next six months attempting to train and then evaluating out the door. And then director said if he had to do it all over, he’d make the same decision again. Really? You’d hire a guy for a job he can’t do and have him sell his house and move to your state and buy a new house and then fire his ass? Not that I’m bitter.

  78. SciDiver*

    I work at a mid-size university in a research position in the Northeast US, but I’m a temporary employee and my contract expires in about 6 months. The more I’ve been in this job, the more frustrated I’ve become with the total lack of benefits (on top of being underpaid) and that all resurfaced this week in a conversation with a coworker. She couldn’t believe that I get zero paid holidays, zero PTO, and zero sick leave, but since I’m a temporary employee the university really has no incentive to make me happy in order to retain me. Sick leave does kick in on my 1 year anniversary here, but I’ll only be working here for 2 weeks after that, provided my contract doesn’t get extended.

    So my question: any of you early-career researchers had luck finding positions with benefits? For the more seasoned, when did you start caring about benefits and how did you seek them out? Any good experiences with universities/companies/government agencies? It seems like all the positions that have benefits require a degree plus 3-5 years experience, and I’ve been working in my field for 2.

    1. Seriously?*

      Have you considered non-university research institutions? Some hospitals have research labs and there are a lot of cancer institutes. Non-university institutions tend to have better benefits in my experience. Government agencies can have good benefits, but most of the entry level positions I have seen are contractors that do not get benefits.

      1. SciDiver*

        I have several non-profits, consulting firms, and non-university research orgs on my radar, but understandably they are inundated with candidates that are more qualified/a better fit than I am. There are tons of hospitals in my area that do terrific research, but my field is really not related to medical science.

  79. Lilo*

    My former boss died this week. We had worked pretty closely together for a while last year. I knew she was terminally ill, but the end came a lot faster than anyone expected. Just very sad for her and her family. Hard to see disease strike someone who put on such a tough exterior (but was very kind when you got to know her).

  80. RMMPgirl*

    I just went through my first job eliminations as a supervisor. It really sucks watching people be told that their positions will be eliminated. I don’t know if it’s better or worse that they’re getting 12 months notice due to the industry we’re in and how long it will take to do the transition. My company is being very generous with severance and retention packages but it doesn’t change the fact that people will no longer be able to do the work they love. I just feel helpless because I can’t make it better and I’m at a loss on what to say.

    1. LGC*

      I’m so sorry!

      I hope you handled it better than my first layoffs. (I told people to go into my boss’s office and after the last one I ran into the supply closet and BAWLED.)

      My advice is…sometimes things stink. And losing your job is one of those things. Show your team compassion – and show YOURSELF compassion! It’s not like you’re doing this to hurt them. It’s just that the positions aren’t necessary anymore.

    2. Bea*

      I’m only familiar with immediate layoffs and they are terrible nightmares. I can’t imagine slogging through a year with a termination date. My heart hurts for those employees.

  81. grey*

    1) In some ways I am both glad and not that I found this site. This week something happened at work that when I told certain people they were absolutely horrified. I was really upset; but part of what caused the upset was because of reading this site and realizing *just* how inappropriate it was. So that’s good. I guess. But also reading this site and comments I am pretty proud at how I handled the situation as well. (I don’t think my job is toxic, just that people can be highly unprofessional at times). So thanks all for that.

    2) I’m curious, has anyone ever read the archives and seriously wonder if it was a co-worker? I found one archive letter that aside from one very minor detail read exactly like a situation from an old job. Really took me back :D

    1. Youth*

      I operate under the assumption that every OP could possibly be one of my coworkers. It’s paranoia-making, but it forces me to read every letter and ask, “Is this talking about me? Do I do that? DO I NEED TO BE BETTER?”

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      For what it’s worth, 99% of the time when someone says something like “oh, I think I know where you work,” they’re saying it about a situation that could be happening at hundreds of workplaces. With the exception of really out there stuff (like the liver boss), most of what’s written about here happens many times over.

    3. I think this is the job I'm hiring for*

      I did come across a comment in a Friday open thread that was someone applying for the job I was hiring for. She had a question about a specific question that was on the application, that I had written, and therefore recognized. Unfortunately, her application didn’t make it past the initial HR screening to my desk.

    4. Oof*

      It’s happened a few times where people have recognized each other, and it’s been recognized on the site. (There was an epic question that turned out to be very, very far from the truth. Apparently one or two people contacted Alison with the correct situation and it was taken down.)

      It’s usually said that the odds are really slim – but I’ve recognized other commenters as colleagues, and was once recognized myself. So I don’t comment much, and don’t ask for advice.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I also recommend throwing in an obviously wrong detail whenever you start to get specific to your workplace (“I work in finance and …”) to at least give you plausible deniability!

  82. PseudoNim*

    If I accidentally audibly pass gas in the cube farm, is it ok to take the rest of the day off to work from home and claim stomachache? I am very embarrassed.

    1. Seriously?*

      That sounds excessive. Gas happens. If you think it will be an ongoing problem today then it might make sense, but if you just want to hide from embarrassment it will probably make it into a bigger deal than it actually is.

      1. Justin*

        Yeah, instead of being the person who farted, you can turn yourself into the person who farted and then went home.

        You can’t do anything about the first one (as you see, I think we’ve all been there), but you can avoid the latter.

    2. PB*

      Gas happens! I’d advise you to try to let it go. If people in your office often wear headphones, it’s possible no one noticed. And even if they did notice, I can pretty much guarantee they’ve been there one time or another. Besides, if you take off today, will you really feel less embarrassed on Monday? I mean, if you’re too embarrassed to effectively work today, sure, claim sickness and go home, but I pretty much guarantee no one in your office cares half as much as you do.

      1. D.W.*

        In the same position. Flatulence is par for the course and I cannot be out of office. I just wrap a blanket around myself.

      1. Queen of Cans and Jars*

        And if anyone mentions it, be sure to bring the cardinal rule of public flatulence: “Whosoever smelt it, doth verily dealt it.”

    5. Holly*

      Passing gas is human. Workplaces feature humans! I’m assuming nobody cares and everyone will forget about it. If it was particularly loud – I think “excuse me!” would be fine int he moment but so would ignoring it and moving on. If you’re passed that moment, just move on!

    6. BadWolf*

      Everyone will politely ignore it and think, “Glad it wasn’t me and everyone politely ignored it last time when it was me.”

      Also, been there done that. Now in the open workspace too. Oye.

  83. Petunia*

    What job hunting website do you use? I’ve only had luck with zip recruiter before and I like that they tell me when my application has been viewed but recently they’ve had so many scams. I see an email about a job and I get excited that a company has contacted me but I open it and it’s another “remote personal/admin assistant (???)” scam. I’ve made my resume not searchable now but I’m wondering if that could hurt me. I’m also annoyed that so many of the jobs are temp jobs or contractor jobs. I’m job hunting now because yet another temp job decided to make budget cuts and of course, temps are the first to go. I’m so frustrated by feeling disposable even after receiving overwhelmingly positive feedback on my work. Does it look bad that I’ve had many temp gigs? I have references from all of them.

    1. Elizabeth W.*

      I use Indeed, mostly. Glassdoor from time to time. I don’t upload my resume to them and I don’t subscribe to notification emails, because most of them are automated and not relevant to me, or scammy. The only thing I don’t like about Indeed is that you can’t click on anything to look at it without it showing up in your Recommended jobs. But it’s easy to manage, and you can often apply directly through the platform by uploading a resume to the post. And there is a space to put a cover letter.

      Careerbuilder and Monster are both worthless. I haven’t used Ziprecruiter except when a post on Indeed connects to it.

    3. Bea*

      Indeed and Craigslist because I’m pretty basic. A lot of the newer places don’t have many jobs within my scope.

  84. Job offer question*

    How much do you weigh whether or not you like your would-be boss when deciding to accept or decline a job offer? Does the size of the team matter?
    My situation: I’m weighing an offer where I’d be the clear #2 on a five-person team. The other three would all be entry-level. I don’t dislike the boss, and I do respect him and think the work he is doing is valuable and good. I think he’s smart, but I don’t particularly like him, in the sense that we’d never be friends and I’m indifferent to his company. On one hand, I don’t think it’s a bad thing not to want to befriend the boss; on the other, is it a bad sign if I’m not super excited to work for this particular person?

    1. Alianora*

      As long as you respect him, I don’t think there’s any issue with not wanting to be friends. Are you excited about other aspects of the job?

      Also, I think it can be hard to judge accurately. A working relationship can change a lot over the course of time; I’ve had managers who I grew to dislike and managers who I grew to like a lot.

    2. Akcipitrokulo*

      Like him… maybe not so much. Beleive that you would lime working for him… different kettle of fish, and that is important.

      But varies. Diaclaimer… for me, I kind of need to like them usually :)

    3. Blue*

      Hmm, I think it depends. I never would’ve chosen to work for my last boss. For the first year we worked in the same office, I saw him as a self-centered, arrogant, project hog with a tendency to mansplain. Anyway, teams got shuffled and I ended up working for him, and it actually worked out really, really well. Those negative qualities didn’t completely disappear once I joined his team, and he’s still not someone I would hang out with outside the office, but after we figured out how to communicate with each other (which was not an easy task, admittedly) and we came to trust and respect each other’s professional judgement and work quality, we made a really good team. I’ve left that job, but I would absolutely work for him again. I still wouldn’t go to happy hour with him, though, haha.

    4. Gumby*

      If you think you can work with him and the job is otherwise appealing, I wouldn’t consider that a deal breaker. Plus – there is no guarantee he’ll be your boss for any specific amount of time. I’m on my third manager at my current job. I’ve been here 2.5 years.

  85. Mimmy*

    Looking to hear from people in the social work field, particularly from those who have a social work degree but took their career in a different direction (this will make sense in a moment…hopefully).

    I mentioned in last week’s open thread that I put my social work license (in my state, it’s called Licensed Social Worker) on “inactive” status. However, I’m worried that it will severely restrict my career options unless I get another degree.

    I had originally wanted to pursue traditional social work, e.g. case management, possibly even clinical work with people with disabilities. However, over time, I lost interest in direct service/clinical work and shifted my focus on looking for roles in policy research or grant writing. I kept my license active in case I decided to go back to direct service work. I never really got a foothold in those mezzo-level areas other than some volunteer councils. Now, with my interests evolving, I could not justify to myself paying for license renewal every 2 years, so I made my license inactive.

    I know that there are people with social work degrees in a very diverse range of roles, not all of them involving direct social services and counseling or managing / supervising front line social workers; yet, that’s what most people suggest when they see that I have an MSW. I am not interested in those roles but still want to stay connected to the field somehow.

    Since getting my MSW, I earned a graduate certificate in an interdisciplinary field and am working towards certification in the ADA.

    Any insights would be helpful.

  86. Grits McGee*

    I had to stop watching because she is such a terrrrrible cultural anthropologist, despite representing herself as one.

    It also doesn’t help that (at least while I was watching it) when it came to Bone’s cultural relativism perspective and Booth’s traditional Christian heterosexual perspective, the latter always won out. The victim with the non-standard lifestyle always died because of their crazy, non-standard lifestyle.

  87. New Hiring Manager*

    I’m in the process of hiring a junior associate for my department. I’m thoroughly disillusioned by the resumes and 1 paragraph cover letters (and in some cases, no cover letters) I’m receiving. I ask everyone to keep their fingers crossed for me

    1. KR*

      This may be different in your field but I hardly ever write resumes more than 1 paragraph. There is only so much you can wax poetic about how you’re perfect for a job when you don’t have all the information about a job and don’t want to be over the top.

      2. New Hiring Manager*

        You raise a fair point, except the position is a pretty standard role in a communications office, which handles drafting language for all kinds of programs and initiatives. Plus I work for a well-known non-profit and it is astounding to me that candidates can’t add one sentence about why they would like to work here.

    2. Bea*

      Welcome to my hell. I’ll take any cover letter at this rate, I loath the spamming of resumes I see.

      I think it’s due to the lower unemployment rates, a lot of the available talent is severely lacking.

  88. Nita*

    Uuuuuuugh. Time to negotiate maternity leave is coming up fast. I’ll probably be talking to my boss Monday-ish. My office is very flexible, but I’m still so nervous and wish I could just… not have this conversation. Can’t please everyone though, either I let down my boss or I let down my family. I’ve got to accept that I’m going to let someone down, and just get this over with. Uuuuuuugh.

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      You’re not letting anyone down.

      It’s more than OK to do what is best for you and your baby. Anyone reasonable will expect nothing less and will not feel let down.

        1. Binky*

          I mean this in the most comforting way possible – if your absence on leave is a life and death difference, the problem isn’t with your leave but with your organization’s planning/funding. You deserve to live your life.

    2. Binky*

      Is there anyone else in your office that has taken maternity leave before that you can consult? I found that very helpful.

      Also, you’re not letting down your boss. Really. Business hire people with lives to do work. You’ve been doing the work, you will one day do the work again. Maternity leaves (well, all leaves) are much more impactful on the lives of the employee than on the business. I took a month more than my friend/co-worker. She really regrets going back early, and our bosses are not able to remember who took more time off. Take as much time as you need/can afford. And also remember, if you’re feeling ready to come back sooner than expected you can cut your leave short – but it’s much harder to extend if you or your baby needs extra time.

      1. Nita*

        I have. Twice. Heaven help me, I feel like such a slacker. I’m shamelessly using my seniority to get out of night and weekend work, and obviously someone else has to do it and they have lives too. And as of last week, I can’t even help junior staff with last-minute field stuff during regular work hours because I’m starting to struggle with just walking a few blocks. And now I’m going to take off to just live my life again. Great. It really doesn’t seem fair. I did work my tail off for my first seven years here, but it feels like it was ages ago.

  89. Risk aversion*

    I very much want to leave a position that looks prestigious on my resume, but is making me miserable. I’ve gotten interviews, but I’m having trouble trusting my gut in evaluating the fit. I think this is because I took a bit of a leap of faith in accepting my current job, and given that it’s not a good fit for me, I’m feeling incredibly risk-averse and worried about getting it wrong again in my next job. I don’t want to squander the opportunity to parlay this prestigious-looking job into something that I enjoy (regardless of how that something looks on paper), and I don’t want to wind up looking like a bit of a job hopper if I pick someplace where I end up wanting to leave after a year.
    Advice/commiseration?

    1. EmmaBird*

      So the job I’m currently in looks GREAT on my resume. So much so I really had no issue finding another job once I started looking (I put out three applications!). For me it just came down to me physically and mentally not being able to handle the job anymore. And personally, I don’t recommend waiting until you’re as exhausted as I am now as I finish out my last week.

      If it’s at all possible, scope out the companies you’re looking at, use your network to talk to people that have worked with the company or currently work there. That made a huge difference in making me feel comfortable with the jump to my current job. People were able to reassure me that my new boss is pretty much the opposite of my current (critical in this case). Of course I’m not in the job yet so I can’t say how it worked out but emotionally I already feel like a different person. And a year ago I would have told you that I was going to try to deal with the bad stuff because of how prestigious my current position is.

      FWIW I don’t think you’d look like a job hopper if you decide to job search after one year in the new job. You could very easily explain it away as not being the ideal fit for whatever reason. Especially if you’ve been in your current role for awhile (for me it was five years so I’m not too concerned if I need to be job searching again this time next year)

  90. Help With Phrasing*

    I’m really frustrated and stressed out at work and I need help with how to talk to my manager about it. My concern is primarily that I will sound whiny (because I feel whiny) and how to avoid that. I’m sort of…in too deep… to be able to come up with calm and professional wording.

    My role shifted and I went from being one of a team of several people with the same role and responsibilities, where we could all hand things off to each other if needed or swap or cover for each other interchangibly and it all evened out, to instead I’m now (on the same team) but my primary responsibilities are something else. Colleagues still in previous-role are meant to now do all of old responsibilities, but if they run into an especially thorny one are supposed to escalate to me. But mostly, I’m not doing same work as them any more. The problem is, they’re falling behind. And I can see them falling behind. And if they fall too behind, things will get escalated to me anyway. So I find myself constantly fighting the impulse to jump in because my mind goes to one of a few possibilities: Either they’re letting something sit because they’re stuck, and going to escalate to me anyway, so might as well jump in when I actually have the moment lest it be made worse by sitting even longer and by the time they rope me in I don’t have time. Or they’re letting something sit because they’ve dropped the ball completely and forgotten about it (at which point someone’s going to demand escalation and it ends in my lap anyway). Or they’re letting something sit because I have unfortunately trained them that if they wait long enough, I will swoop in and cover.

    I know I’m part of the problem. We’ve tried before to establish protocols by which I only jump in when requested (escalated) not just because I notice things are backing up. But people have been bad about adhering to them. Balls got dropped, and I ended up having to clean up the mess anyway. So it feels like self-preservation to just keep helping. But it really isn’t supposed to be my responsibility anymore for the volume I keep ending up helping with. And the overall volume right now is historically low, so it doesn’t make sense why things are getting backed up.

    I know it sounds simple, that I should just stop helping so much because I’m letting the ball-droppers off the hook, but it’s difficult because the work ends up in my lap when the ball drops anyway. Expectations are also a little confusing because the boss seems happy when things run smoothly, but it seems like the only way to get me doing my actual role is to let some other people fail. Given the nature of the relationship (things are escalated to me) letting it fail feels counterproductive, but at the same time, the intention was not that things be escalated so much. I’m also torn because it feels like the real root cause here is other people not carrying their weight, which isn’t really a me-problem. But it is affecting me.

    I feel like I need clarity on the expectations of me: is part of my role as the one who receives escalation to keep everything running smoothly, or is it to step aside entirely, focus on my new work, and only help when explicitly asked. But I’m also not sure how or even if to bring up the performance issues with old-team. I feel like it’s pertinent to the discussion and hard to explain the situation without mentioning it. If they were on top of everything, I wouldn’t be stressed or confused about needing to cover. Or am I just being completely unreasonable and my stress is all my own doing?

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      Would it help to loop Boss in? “Hey, I noticed this project might be falling behind… thought you should know there’s a risk to its completion.” (Possibly include “I think Jan may have got stuck at that part.”)

      Then you’ve escalated it, and it’s a business decision whethet to intervene or let it drop.

      Thing is, continuing on doesn’t actually help the business. Or you. You keep stopping things’ being dropped completely, people expect it of you, and there is no reason for anything to change.

      Let boss know is probably first stop, and warn them that the current aituation is untenable.

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I think you need to lay out what you did here. Yes you’re going to have to comment on the team’s performance to explain the situation. I would frame it as “I want to understand this new structure now that we’ve been working under it for x time and your recommendation as to how you want these issues that I’ve noticed to be handled”

      Then lay out the things that you did here. Be factual and try to not let your frustration take over (it’s ok if frustration shows, sometimes that helps drive the point you are trying to make). Have a few examples, but avoid a laundry list. Keep restating, your concern is for the work and that the team seems to be struggling a bit with workload, troubleshooting, problem solving, and appropriate escalations.

      Your manager needs to know if there are problems. It’s really common to see what you are describing happen when a key member of the team leaves. Sometimes it will become apparent how much the Help With Phrasings of the department did. It’s also a wake up call for the remaining employees that may have gotten a little too comfortable in the shadows of their high performing coworkers. It’s not all bad though, I’ve seem some good wake up calls and chances for others to step up once given the motivation to do so.

      Good luck, this sounds like a frustrating situation.

  91. Sharkie*

    I have been thinking about this alot lately. What is your favorite phrase to use on email to politely let people know that you are annoyed/ nicely pointing out an error?

    1. Alianora*

      Depends on the error, but I try to be quick and matter-of-fact about it. My annoyance or other feelings don’t come into it at all. I always start out with a thanks for whatever effort they put in.

      “Hi ___,

      Thanks for sending this info! Just wanted to let you know that it says Event is at 4:00, but it’s actually at 4:30.

      Best,
      Alianora”

      1. Sharkie*

        What about people who (by their own account) only skim emails and bomb you with questions you answered in the original email

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          Hi there!

          Thanks for getting back to me – I’ve pasted the original email below which should clear that up for you!

          Thanks,

          (Me)

        2. Alianora*

          For me, it’s not worth the energy to get upset over it. I just copy/paste from the last email:

          “Hi ___,

          Thanks for asking. Per my last email:

          Blah blah blah

          Best,
          Alianora”

        3. valentine*

          As the recipient, a single instance of forwarding with the skimmed bit highlighted and no other comment has me setting similar stuff aside until I can properly read it.

    2. Akcipitrokulo*

      Starting it “Dear (name)” and ending “yours sincerely,”.

      I get that polite with you… you REALLY pissed me off.

      Generally used with complaint emails where I’m the customer :)

    3. Akcipitrokulo*

      But pointing out errors? Meh. It’s my job :)

      Hi,

      Just quick heads up… I noticed you mentioned X when my understanding was Y. Can we clarify it?

      Thanks!

      (Me)

    4. H.C.*

      “Per my last email…” or “as previously explained/discussed” (especially if the person CC’d a whole bunch of colleagues & higher-ups about the issue)

        1. Kat in VA*

          To me, when I use the term “Per my last email”, what I’m really saying is, “I ALREADY TOLD YOU THIS, AND IF YOU’D BOTHERED TO TAKE TEN SECONDS TO READ THE DAMN EMAIL I SENT, I WOULDN’T BE TAKING UP MY TIME TO EXPLAIN SOMETHING THAT I’VE ALREADY TOLD YOU ABOUT – BUT YOU DO YOU, BOOBOO”…or something like that. ;)

    5. Lizardbreath*

      Not saturated. I’m in the dc area and can’t seem to find people with Angular, Java, .Net, etc. at entry level. Everyone I find has 5+ years and wants north of 6 figures, which is out of my range for an entry level job.

  92. Have Engineering-ness, Will Make Computer Magic*

    r/CSCareerQuestions seems to be really split on whether the entry-level software developer market is saturated or not. Some people say yes, others say it’s only saturated if you aren’t competent.

    What do you guys think? I’m retraining on my own time after getting a Master’s in E.E. (in progress), and want to make the transition some time in the next two years at most (if that has relevance).

    Thanks!

    1. irene adler*

      What do the folks at the local chapter of your professional organization say about the software developer market prospects? That might get you some relevant insights.

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, I’d say it depends heavily on your area and what employers are there. Also, it seems like a lot of folks will list any language or environment they’ve ever heard of under their skills–while people who really know things with deep competence remain rare.

    2. JHunz*

      It probably depends on where you live and whether you’re open to relocation. I know in my area there’s both a constant supply of new engineers (local colleges) and a constant need for them that seems to outpace the supply of really good ones.

    3. gecko*

      Only saturated if you aren’t competent, in general. But it will still depend on your region. If you’re not in a major or minor tech region, then I can’t speak to it. I’ve worked both in a major tech region and in an area where there was just one big company trying to chew up every single entry-level CS employee they could find. In both of those, there was no saturation.

      That said, the definition of “competent” is a tough one–sometimes it genuinely means competent and sometimes it means “went to a recognizable-name American school for CS and is young.” So there’s the (classist, ageist, often racist & xenophobic) rub.

  93. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    Y’all, I have an interview TONIGHT for a PERMANENT JOB that would require a cross country move to a geographic region I REALLY WANT TO BE IN working in TWO industries that I have been trying to CLAW MY WAY INTO for the last two years!!
    Please send me all the good interview vibes!

    2. Elizabeth W.*

      Sending good vibes! If you get it, send them back, LOL.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      If you have a chance to post at the end of your day, let us know how it went, how you felt about it, and what they say will happen next. And sending good vibes your way!

      1. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

        It’s a few days later BUT. It was super well, I was really excited to hear about the opportunity and what’s going on there. It ended up being less “interview” and more “chatting;” she only really had time to ask 2 separate questions because the conversation flowed so well. We went right up to the half hour mark and she said “I’m sorry to cut off the conversation–I haven’t even needed the whole half hour with other candidates–but I have to get to another meeting.” She seemed generally positive and said they’re looking to make the decision within the month. I’m not sure what next steps would be specifically but I am asking in my follow-up email.

        Thank you for the good vibes!!!

  94. Accidental Analyst*

    New work pet peeve – people in the bathroom who spend the whole time sniffing loudly. No idea why they do this as there’s toilet paper in the stall so they could blow their nose.

        1. nonegiven*

          I sniff all the time. Blowing my nose changes nothing most of the time even if I can feel stuff moving around in there. If I blow and blow and blow I might end up driving the stuff into my ears.

    2. WellRed*

      Maybe your office should provide actual tissues. Actually, you could walk over with a box and offer one and see if that wakes them up, so to speak.

      1. Accidental Analyst*

        Doesn’t look like it when they’re washing their hands. Eyes aren’t red or moist. Skin isn’t blotchy. Also anecdotally sniffing from crying seems to have a different quality

        Would definitely find it less annoying if it was from crying.

        1. zora*

          Also, I’m on your side with this one. Constant sniffing makes me nuts. The guy behind me on the plane was doing it this week, I kept turning up my music until I couldn’t hear it.

    4. zora*

      My new work pet peeve: people who spend 5 minutes (I have clocked it) at the sink extremely thoroughly washing their tupperware after lunch. While other people are standing in line for the sink.

      I would rather wash mine at home with my clean sponge anyway, so I just quickly rinse things off, put the lid on, and wipe down the outside. And then I wash them at home. Thanks for making me stand here and wait for you. There are 100 people sharing this kitchen, folks.

      1. Windchime*

        Arrrgggh, I work with this guy. We have a TINY kitchen so we are all used to waiting patiently for the sink. Most people just do a quick rinse and get out of the way, but this guy makes elaborate lunches with 3 or 4 dishes and containers and lids and utensils. And then when he is done washing and drying the dishes, he polishes up the sink and counter which is normally a nice thing to do, but I really would like to dump out my tea so I can recycle the cup.

    5. Chaordic One*

      I’m way too cynical, I know, but I used to work in L.A. back in the ’90s. Are they sniffing cocaine or something?

    6. LilySparrow*

      No good ever came of listening to other people’s bathroom noises. No matter which end they’re coming out of.

  95. Defective Immediately!*

    Any tips for going through Restructuring Hell?
    Layoffs are coming but we don’t know when. Employer has lagged behind on technology and streamlining procedures until they’ve decided to guy everything to the studs and rebuild.
    Obviously I need to job search, but in the meantime I’m running ragged from co-workers already leaving and it’s our busiest time coming up.

      1. GreyNerdShark*

        Been through it 3 times now…

        First off is whether you think you have a chance of surviving. If you are a specialist or have a great deal of institutional knowledge AND the people above your boss know this, then you have a chance.

        If you figure you have a reasonable chance of surviving then work on increasing that. Be visibly useful and in control. Do what has to be done and try to get it known that you are doing that. You need to be more than a number on a spreadsheet to the people doing the re-org. Even if you don’t survive you get good resume fodder of the “did all this while wildly understaffed, achieved that to tight deadlines” sort of thing.

        If you don’t think you have much chance then don’t bother. Identify who you want a reference from and keep doing stuff for them but not above and beyond, won’t get you a better reference really and is too draining. Just keep repeating “not my circus any more” and if things come unglued they do. Not your fault if they do, and no one will thank you for running about with the gluestick. They should, but they won’t.

  96. LadyByTheLake*

    Need some advice on how to word a conversation I want to broach with a company I work with but am not a part of. I’ve worked with them for years and they treat me like a member of their team, but I am not an employee. I am well liked and I am close with the people who I work with. It is increasingly clear to me that they are going to need to hire someone internally to do the work that I do and I’d like to suggest it before I find out that they already hired someone (which they have done twice now in six years). I see exactly where I could fit in their organization. However, it most likely would be a pay cut for me (on the other hand, benefits/stability). How do I start that conversation?

    1. Four lights*

      Hey “team lead that I work with”, it looks to me that you might be hiring for a new “position x.” If that’s the case I’d be interested in throwing my hat in. I love working with your team and think this company is really great.

  97. Howdy?*

    Our office is split on this, so I’m asking for more opinions: if a cover letter greeting began with “howdy,” would that be enough to pass on that candidate?

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      For me… not usually by itself, and depends on context and job/company.

      Two extremes…

      If it’s customer facing in a company known for formality and traditional outlook… then not going to make the cut if there are any other applicants that started Dear X… like, ANY other candidate that showed signs of being vaguely competent…

      And if you have tons of applicants for that kind of position, yeah, they selected out.

      If it’s a behind the scenes role in a company that is known for not really caring about that stuff… who cares?

      So depends. But unless you know your audience really well, a definite question mark.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I’d say yellow flag because I’d probably read it out of curiosity, but unless it was otherwise a stellar letter, pass. Same with any minor anomaly in a cover letter – if you can’t more than make up for that violation of business norms, don’t risk it.

    6. Elaine*

      Since you reference “our office” I assume this is not a position for a cowboy rounding up cattle. Everything else about this person would have to be outstandingly fabulous or I personally would pass it up without further consideration.

    7. Ama*

      If it was for an entry level position — as in most of your candidates will probably be people just out of school with little work experience — I would at least read the full letter on the chance that they got a bad idea from someone about “standing out.” For a position where most candidates will have some prior work experience and have some understanding of conventional business writing, probably not.

      However, if I did decide to move a person to a phone interview (that’s the next step at my employer), I would be very alert for other signs that this candidate doesn’t have a good grasp on professional norms or behavior, and see if I could gauge whether they are capable of adjusting to our office.

    8. Bea*

      I will always read every letter if for nothing more than a laugh or a story to tell.

      That would start out as a chuckle and maybe if it’s the only off part I would look past it. But it would absolutely make me smile in that “ooooh is this as bad as it could be??” way.

      Granted I’m brutal and my pet peeve is any correspondence starting “hey!”, howdy is right next to hey.

    9. Howdy?*

      It’s definitely a traditional office (in New England region) though not completely conservative- jeans are fine and overall it’s a casual culture internally. The “howdy” raised everyone’s eyebrows, but some people see it as harmless and friendly and the rest see it as a lack of professional norms. It’s becoming a larger conversation here about professional standards that aren’t necessarily indicators of competency, tattoos for example, and what dumb mistakes should be overlooked for young people trying to break into the professional sphere. Ultimately we passed because the cover letter was meh, but if the candidate was going for memorable, they certainly succeeded.

    10. Someone Else*

      Not insta-reject, but I would not expect to be impressed after that opening, unless I’m hiring a cowboy/cowgirl.

  98. HappyCamper*

    So because of various circumstances, have been doing a lot of extra work, partly covering for higher ups who have moved on to other jobs.

    Today, manager of neighbouring team (who are impacted by what I’ve been doing) took me to one side to thank me for how well I had kept things going and made their lives easier.

    Still bouncing!!!

  99. Haley*

    I had a job interview at a local university and the setup for the interview was way different than anything I have experienced, in higher education or otherwise! The first person I met with was the director of human resources. She didn’t actually ask me any questions, she simply went over all of the legalities and human resource aspects of employees who work there. She told me I would need a background and sex offender screening, she gave me some other legal papers that she was required to give. Then she started talking about how much money I would be making, she talked about how many vacation days I’m entitled to, the other benefits such as retirement, life insurance, she went over all of the university health and dental plans. I was like, woah! I’ve never had a place bring that stuff up even before I got interviewed. So that was certainly different.

    Then I went to my actual interview with the university department I would be working in. It was a panel interview, of course, and it lasted a bit over an hour. They asked good questions, but it wasn’t as difficult an interview as others I had been on. I thought I did pretty well, but they said they are still going to be conducting interviews for the next 2-3 weeks (even though this is a role they need filled immediately).

  100. writelhd*

    A department I work laterally in sometimes keeps trying to restart the same very detailed project that is time intensive for our staff and draws a good bit on relationship capital with some of our vendors that isn’t endless, and it just never works. Basically it’s soliciting a bunch of detailed options from vendors and organizing those into a working database for a big product for clients that is composed of, let’s say, 20 or so small portions, each portion with 3-6 options. Some options overlap or affect each other across portions in complicated “if Y has Z, then A needs to have B” kind of ways. The database needs to be accessible by customers, provide meaningful visuals and explanation to them, give them enough options to satisfy their need for choice without being too many and just overwhelming them, and be easily applicable to lot of different projects. And the information in it often expires and has to get collected or updated every 6 months or so. It’s hours, and hours, and hours of work.

    I’ve been here 7 years and it’s been tried at least four times. The head of this department heads it up, it’s something he really wants. The first time, he asked me to do it, alongside my other job. I did what I felt was a good job though I was more entry level then and there was a lot I still had to learn, but the work I did never got used by the department head, and was quickly buried in a file folder and forgotten. I never got feedback from him on why, or how to improve it. Every year he restarts the project again and assigns a new person to it, partly because his department has had high turnover and he always has a new employee helping him that he’s trying to train. The way he works is a huge part of the issue: he has a vision for what he wants in both big picture of how it should function and in very minute details of how it should be organized, but he is *terrible* at communicating. You ask him detail questions and he gives vague answers with at tone hinting that this should be obvious, but it’s not obvious! He is prone to just not giving feedback or asking questions on what you did, instead he gets frustrated it’s not happening how he wants it and just starts doing it himself without telling you–except he doesn’t have time to finish anything himself when he does that, he doesn’t take the time to look at the work you already did and sometimes just redoes it without realizing you had done it but maybe had put the file in a different place than he thought, and doesn’t really explain the parts he did, and if he intends to keep working on them or have you finish them. He’s also assigned this project to a lot of people over the years who are new and entry level and don’t fully understand this stuff, and who usually have other responsibilities to weave into it, so they don’t have adequate time to work on it and often lack a lot of the experience needed to understand some of the ways different things should connect.

    I’ve backed off trying to put in any time on the entire project, and instead just give my input on some of the key sections that my particular role has expertise on, because I have certain quality standards I want to see reflected in the choices and if I don’t, I’ve seen that they’ll get dropped in the actual client projects and that’ll probably make the rest of my job harder. I’ve done all the work for those sections, but I feel like I’m always doing it over and over again to put it into his newest system, and explain it yet again to the next new person he has working on it who has to get trained on my part yet again. It still sucks hours of my time and morale for no appreciable gain. I have tried to talk to him about it and his response is basically just “Look I just want , this should not be hard!”

    How should one effectively manage a project like this, to actually reach the finish line? I’ve only ever seen this fail.

    1. Marthooh*

      It sounds like something that ought to be handed over to a specialist, probably a contractor, who has the right people-skills to figure out what the manager wants.

    2. Gumby*

      If I’m interpreting this correctly: the main problems are that the project starts and stops with no consistent follow-through and your customer changes his mind often or doesn’t commit or communicate well.

      It sounds like the project would benefit from a project manager whose job it is to keep momentum even as staffing changes. Said person should focus on documentation so you can make progress rather than starting over from zero every time.

      To handle changing expectations: it sounds like you need to get his buy-in on a system & interface design. Would it be faster to do mock-ups or storyboards for the initial phases? How detailed is your interface spec or are you working from a technical spec only? After documenting things – have him physically sign off on the spec when you hit “spec freeze” and deferring any further suggestions to the next go ’round. Capture them so he feels heard, but don’t change what you are doing until you accomplish the current cycle. (Oh, yes, expect and plan for multiple iterations if you aren’t already.) (You could go full SCRUM on it, but I find that really only works when there is a dedicated full-time team rather than people who are working on the project part-time or sporadically.)

  101. Dragoning*

    Advice please:

    One of the contractors in my department just got her contract cancelled with about two or three days notice due to “lack of work in the 2019 forecast.” They literally announced this in a meeting today.

    I am a contractor.

    Granted, I do a different job than she did, but we are part of the same process and the same workload flows through the department–I’m the step after her.

    I am also the only contractor who does my job, and the newest person.

    Naturally, I’m concerned about this, as my contract is up for renewal at the end of the year. My boss just left to cover a maternity leave in a foreign country, so I can’t talk to him about it, which means I need to ask my Grandboss, who is now in charge of my contract, about it.

    Not sure what to say when I knock on her door. I can’t just jump to “hey are you firing me” as my opener.

    1. H.C.*

      Maybe not exactly “Hey are you firing me” but I don’t think it hurts to be candid with your Grandboss about your concerns, like “I found out one of the contractors in my department was recently let go because of lack of work in next year’s forecast; since I am part of the same process and workflow, I wanted what’s the likelihood of my contract being renewed at the end of this year?” [+any positive remarks about how you’d like to continue working there because of reasons X & Y, if you want.]

      In any case – I would start job searching now.

      1. Dragoning*

        Grandboss is actually the one who told us in a department-wide meeting this morning–so she knows I know.

        1. H.C.*

          Modify the first part of the script sentence, (“In light of your announcement of letting go Cersei due to work forecasts, . . .”) but the gist stays the same. Fingers crossed!

  102. The New Wanderer*

    I just found out unofficially that I am getting my job back! Actually better than that, I’ll be moving to a position I’m better suited for than where I was when I was laid off 17 months ago. It’s a huge relief since I have had no luck finding something else (expert in a small niche field and I’m ‘overqualified’/’over 40’ for most positions that would be a reasonable career shift). But since it’s not a done deal, I’m completely in limbo waiting for the official call.

    By coincidence, I finally found a recruiter who seems really great and has already found some leads for me, so I’m hoping the job paperwork comes through before he spends too much more time on finding things for me. I am going to proceed like the other thing isn’t going to happen, but WOW I really want it to be settled!

  103. Deryn*

    Suggestions for a professional, reasonably priced, backpack style bag? Or tips for picking one? My office is about a mile from where I actually see patients, and I often bring quite a bit of equipment with me (two laptops, chargers, paper materials, iPads, lunch, water bottle, various bits and bobs – for a variety of irritating reasons it’s not possible to leave materials in one location or the other) and my current tote/shoulder bag is just not cutting it. I work at a university medical center, so I’m hoping to find something that doesn’t look so much like a “student” backpack (I’m petite and baby-faced in a student-filled location, so I do sometimes get mistaken for a student despite professional dress and my ID badge. No skin off my back, just not the image I’m looking to convey).

    1. AnonGD*

      I have a convertible Sherpani tote bag that I love. It doesn’t have a huge capacity so you might want to consider something else from the brand but it looks fashionable enough that there are no “student” vibes (I work at a university so I have a similar issue). The thing that sold me is that it converts from a tote to backpack in literal seconds, so I can walk across campus with it as a backpack and quickly change it to a tote before I walk into a meeting room.

    2. Jemima Bond*

      Now I am sure somebody asked this a few weeks ago and got loads of useful replies. Have you tried a search for “backpack” within this site?

    3. Reba*

      Wow, TWO laptops! Is a rolly bag type thing an option you’d consider?

      Ebags house brand has several nice options at a pretty nice price. I also like the Timbuk2 ones–they have several that come in businessy-looking fabrics.

      1. Deryn*

        I know! Honestly, I could put up with it if not for the weight of the second laptop – the laptop that broke the researcher’s back, if you will. It’s a long story about software licenses and multi-user scheduling shenanigans as to why I end up carrying the second one back and forth. I have actually considered a rolling bag; we have two additional rolling bags and a rolling crate that we keep at one location. The kicker is during winter/when it’s raining, we’d be rolling it through the muck (and then into a medical clinic). For nice weather though, it could work!

        I’ll take a look at those ones! Thanks for the rec!

  104. BadWolf*

    My team recently discussed using Instant Messenger as an answering machine vs a phone call. Luckily we’re all on the same page of “answering machine.”

    As in, when you send someone an IM, you open with your request/question/etc. And then they reply whenever they reply.

    We interact with some teams with persons who send us, “Hello” and then…wait. Which is…not my favorite.

    But I had one guy who I’d send my question to and he’d reply, “On the phone” or later would reply, “Sorry for the delay, I was in a meeting.” I’m all, “Chill, dude, don’t care.” But I learned to preface my chats with, “Hey, when you have time, can you send me the teapots form” Or “I was wondering if you worked with chocolate glaze and what you thought of the melting point. No rush.” Because I don’t really want to cause him stress if he’s feeling like I’m sending him a demanding IM instead of waiting for when he replies to a “hello.”

    1. KR*

      So in my opinion email is for the “get to this when you can” and IM is more of an instantaneous “I’m available and not on the phone or doing uninterruptible work, talk to me” and phone is more like “WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW”. But like most things it’s different for every team and company.

      1. Bea*

        We use email for projects or long correspondence. All internal messages are via chat. Many email boxes are shared or spilling over with external messages so it keeps them separate.

    2. Ender*

      Yeah it’s called instant for a reason – I think you should be sending email if you’re not expecting an instant reply. Aside from anything else it pops up on their screen when they could be presenting or anything. It’s only supposed to be used for immediate things

    3. Someone Else*

      My company is all remote, so this may be somewhat painted by that, but we treat IMs as equivalent to walking up to someone’s desk. Everyone once in a while someone will IM when you’re clearly AFK and say “hey when you get back…” but otherwise, IMs are for when you need a response basically now, but also for when the answer is short.
      Emails are for “you look at it when you choose to look at it”.

  105. EmmaBird*

    I have an exit interview coming up next week (my first) and there are a few glaring issues that I can think to address but not sure bringing up any of them is productive. Just curious to hear what others think.

    1) Part of the reason I am leaving is my boss. In a nutshell, she is highly volatile, impulsive, does not handle any feedback well (honestly even good feedback is met with strange reactions sometimes), and is generally difficult to work with. I’m also her first direct report and first report to leave, so it seems like mentioning any of my issues with her will likely end with her not changing and me burning a bridge when she finds out what I said (I don’t particularly trust my workplace to keep anything confidential).

    2) Another reason is the leadership over my boss. This feels more critical to me and possibly more worthwhile to mention. I’m part of a creative team and weak leadership over my boss has caused major issues (people in other departments designing things that do no follow brand guidelines, publishing them, and there being absolutely NO consequences). It seems obvious to me that strong consequences, at least a serious conversation about the importance of branding, would go a long way toward fixing these problems. Nothing I have said, nor my boss, has swayed the people that have taken on a designer role when it’s not their job…

    3) This is probably the riskiest to mention but I do have equality concerns. I found out a male counterpart of mine in another department who has a VERY similar role as me is making tens of thousands of dollars more after a massive raise. It’s particularly baffling because I have a degree and more experience than he does (both generally and more tenure in the company). I also had some issues where degrading comments were made about female clients– but I should mention I brought this up with other coworkers and while many understood why I was offended, I was also pretty much told it wasn’t a big deal. So culturally I might be in an extreme minority.

    There’s another factor here that’s tricky and it’s that while I don’t know this HR person well, I have a close friend who is in an intimate relationship with him (she doesn’t work for my company) and I’m fairly certain she may have already mentioned these things to him in some form or another. I know for a fact she once told him I had serious issues with my boss and described some of the crazier moments I’ve had with her.

    Any advice appreciated!

    1. irene adler*

      HR rarely takes action as a result of comments made at an exit interview.

      Remember that they will be contacted as a reference down the line. So don’t let their memory of you be a list of complaints against your boss. That could come back to haunt you.

      Also, has HR indicated an interest in work place relationships in the past? If not, they why do you think they would be interested now?

    2. foolofgrace*

      Remember that usually, exit interviews are shared with your manager. So for reasons of future reference checks, you might just want to shake the dust from your feet and move on. I know how frustrating this must be for you, sorry.

  106. Peter Guilherme*

    So I have a bit of a problem. I’m 26 and I’ve been in my current job for more than two years, which wouldn’t be too bad under normal circumstances. However, this job was explicitly pitched to me as a “work here for a year and get promoted out” job by multiple people including both my current and former boss as well as their boss. I’ve interviewed and been rejected from 5 internal positions and frankly at this point I’ve completely lost faith in this company’s ability to value me as an employee capable of anything more mentally taxing than sorting mail and delivering office supplies.

    So that’s where I’m coming from. My main thing I’d like advice over is where I can go from here. I’ve been looking at external opportunities on LinkedIn, Indeed and Craigslist but I’ve been really disappointed in the quality of jobs available, which is odd considering my city has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. Furthermore, when I tried to make a list to narrow down jobs by type it just turned into a list of things I don’t want, rather than things I like. I’ve been pretty despondent and feel like I’m wasting my time at work. Would a career counselor help? Are there any tools that have helped people in a similar situation to me?

    1. Four lights*

      You could look for a job recruiter.

      You could also try networking–I don’t know if there are any local industry organizations where you could get to know people in your field who may know about positions.

      If you know some specific companies you could work for, you could check their websites for opportunities directly.

      1. Peter Guilherme*

        Do you have any tips for finding a non-scummy, non-useless recruiter? In the past they’ve only ever wanted me to put me in extremely short term contract positions for a company that’s headquartered in my city that’s named after a major river.

        1. Four lights*

          Hmm, I didn’t have any problems with the ones I found, but you could try a few questions in an initial phone call before you bother meeting with them–
          1-I;m looking for a long term placement, do you have positions like that?
          2-I’m not interested in anything for Company X, do you hire for other companies?
          3-What are some companies you have worked with in the past?
          4-Is there a position in my field you’re currently looking for someone for?

          If they’re scummy they might try to lie, but you can probably tell if they get squirrelly. You could point blank say to them your previous recruiter issues and see what they say.

          Talking to other people in your area may give you a lead as well.

    2. Doug Judy*

      Maybe think of companies in your area that you’d like to work for and check directly on their websites. A lot of times where you work is more important than the actual job, so start identifying companies and industries that interest you.

  107. Gaia*

    I anticipate an offer for a new job today and I have a question about negotiating start times. Their team all currently start by 630am. This is done because they use systems that shut down by 5pm and because they work with a team on both coasts.

    I cannot start at 630. I attend a gym class at 530 and the earliest I cab get to work is 730. For my mental and physical health, this timing cannot and will not be moved. I’ve been up front that this timing is problematic (although been vague on what my early morning commitment is) and I am concerned they’ll approach with an offer and a start time of 630.

    Any ideas for how to negotiate a later start time? The role doesn’t ok involve coverage and the need for the start time is really more “we’ve always done this” than “this is really needed.” They are otherwise flexible with their employees.

    And I’m willing to walk away over this. It isn’t that I’d be turning down a job for my gym schedule so much as I don’t want to work somewhere that is so rigid that they can’t flex an hour without good reason. But, I like the company and the role is intriguing. So I’d like to work it out.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’ve been up front that this timing is problematic (although been vague on what my early morning commitment is) and I am concerned they’ll approach with an offer and a start time of 630.

      How did they react when you told them 6:30 was problematic?

      1. Gaia*

        They didn’t really react at all but did continue to love me through their process.

        To be honest I’ll be fairly irritated if they did that assuming I’d give in when I was upfront it would be an issue.

    2. BadWolf*

      Do they work from 6:30 all the way until 5:00 ? Or is that just so they’ll have buffer time in case they need to work later on a day?

      Maybe point out that you’ll be able to cover anything at the end of the day? They might like someone who is always there a little later than others instead of someone having to work late.

      I think that because you have a thing you do in the morning, people will probably respect that. If it were just an, “Ugh, I don’t like to get up that early” it might be harder to negotiate (although coming in at 6:30 is insanely early at my job!)>

      1. Gaia*

        No, they work 6:30 to 3. It isn’t the type of work that results in late days often so I think it’s more because they have team on the East coast. But my role wouldn’t interact with that team in real time often.

        And 630 is early for this work. I was actually pretty surprised.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        If they send an offer with 6:30 am start time, I’d use that tactic to negotiate – offer to be the ‘late shift’ in case anything comes in at the end of your team’s work day (3 pm). I’m guessing no one who starts at 6:30 will normally want to stay past 3 to handle those situations! It’s also possible that other people have tried that and they’ll say no… but if you’d turn it down anyway, might as well give it a shot.

      3. Rusty Shackelford*

        I think that because you have a thing you do in the morning, people will probably respect that.

        Although if you tell them you’re working out, I think there’s a pretty good chance they won’t respect it at all, and will think you could simply do that after work. I think people are more likely to respect things you can’t change, like bus doesn’t run that early or I have to get kids to school. (Not saying *I* don’t respect your early gym time, just that I think they’ll push back on it.)

        1. Gaia*

          I agree, which is a big reason I didn’t get into the specifics. While it actually cannot change (it isn’t a traditional gym), most won’t understand that.

          Either way, the issue is done now. They came with a solid offer but were adamant on the hours. When I brought up the fact that we’d discussed this already, I was told they figured it wouldn’t be that big of a deal in light of their offer. So I don’t think we’re a good culture fit for each other and I declined. Hopefully there will be another soon!

          1. Ama*

            I’m sorry it didn’t work out, but it’s probably for the best. It sounds like it would really affect your personal quality of life if you agreed to their hours, and I think it might be good for that employer to learn that being inflexible on that point is going to cost them some great candidates (it ultimately may be a price they are willing to pay, but the fact that they thought their offer would change your mind is pretty telling).

            1. Gaia*

              I agree it would have had a serious negative impact on my quality of life and I am really trying to focus on myself and take a healthy approach to my overall wellness.

              And, I’m with you that it is important for employers to realize that being inflexible in this market means they will lose their preferred candidate. If that is what they want, then that is their choice to make, but that isn’t a company I want to work for. In six months if I’m still looking, I may take a very different view. But not today.

          2. Gumby*

            “they figured it wouldn’t be that big of a deal in light of their offer”

            Huh? Was their offer abnormally high or something? Because I assume if someone cares about something enough to mention it in the interview process – then it’s actually fairly important to them. If it were something that they could be flexible about they wouldn’t mention it at all! Or would mention it with caveats. Something. Job seekers don’t typically throw up meaningless roadblocks when they are trying to convince you to hire them! Ugh!

            1. Gaia*

              It was not abnormally high. It was exceedingly average. I think that perhaps they think it was abnormally high.

              And I agree. I mentioned it early and more than once. I feel for the recruiter because he was obviously frustrated but I can’t help it that their hiring manager just completely neglected to listen to me or take what I was saying seriously.

  108. Utoh!*

    Totally venting:
    Had an extremely frustrating email interaction w/coworker this week. I only escalate issues to her that I *know* only she or her counterpart can resolve. I included all the details of the issue, and yet she made me jump through hoops before I finally said “I give up.” and only then she acknowledged the issue was in fact a problem with the system and would be corrected. I honestly don’t know how I could have made it clearer what the issue was. She’s always very frustrating to deal with, she over explains, is very loud and barges in on conversations so she can put the focus on herself. And many times, when an issue occurs that falls squarely in her arena, she will deny she changed anything or that there is even an issue, but then all of a sudden the issue is resolved, without her owning up to anything. She has access to reports of what was changed, but no one else does so we can’t confirm or deny she made a change…but we’re not stupid. Now I’m on a project with her, but thankfully am not the lead so I’m just going to ask what my tasks are but let the lead deal with her directly. I think she’s just incredibly insecure and she can’t admit she makes mistakes, just like everyone else does…

    Thanks for reading. :)

    1. valentine*

      If it’s not obviously overstepping, what if you ask for the report so you can come up with a way to avoid the issue in future? (If it would help to have proof or for your supervisor to know this person is wasting everyone’s time like this.) If you plan on her brick wall, can you carry on without being frustrated? If it leaves you stuck until she fixes the issue, can you report that to the lead or your supervisor and move on to something else/wait her out?

  109. JS#2*

    I need some advice about how to stop a committee from turning into a nightmare.

    The situation: I’m part of a very small group tasked to do a specialized project for our department. Let’s say Manufacturing New Llama Grooming Brushes. This is a Very Important Project to the department head. There were multiple parts to the project and we’ve been taking longer than expected. We did well on the first stage of the project, but now we’re in the second stage, and, due to members being on vacation during the summer and vague project scope/requirements, we haven’t made much visible progress.

    Each of the group members reports to a different supervisor (who are not equal in the department hierarchy). Our supervisors got together and decided that the best thing to do would be to add more group members. Our group is supposed to more than double in size. The additions to the group have related skills, but not really the skills we need for the project. If we’re making new llama grooming brushes, their skills are closer to shearing llamas. We would need to get the new members caught up on the different parts of the llama brushes and the process of creating brushes, which would significantly delay our project. According to my supervisor, the new members were chosen more for their availability than any specific skills.

    I was hired on a temporary contract specifically to help with this project based on my experience in making brushes. Due to hierarchies and internal politics, I have not been able to contribute as much as I expected to. I have spoken repeatedly with my supervisor about my difficulties in contributing to this project, but nothing has been done beyond encouraging my group leader to delegate more work instead of taking it on himself. My group leader is overworked, but wants to pursue a career in making llama brushes, so I’m in a tight spot trying to get him to let me take more of a lead. We have a good relationship, but our career goals are really similar–we both want to control the project so we can put it in our portfolios.

    How do I: (1) convince my supervisor that doubling the size of the group would actually slow down the project; (2) convince my group leader to let me take on more work??

  110. Lumos*

    Client at my second job just chewed me out for coming in on a friday because she’s busy and asked if I could come at a set time. I can’t because my first job has hours that change every week. Now I have to carry this message back to my boss and worry they’re gonna ask me to stop doing this.

    In other news, I’m trying to find an article about FMLA mistakes managers make that I swear Alison wrote but that I can no longer find anywhere.

    1. Nanc*

      Look for the Occupation & Wage info database for your state and search under your degree or something general like Culinary. It will bring up the various job catagories, the wage info for different areas of the state and any listed jobs matching. Here’s an example from my state: https://www.qualityinfo.org/jc-oprof/?at=1&t1=culinary~352014~4101000000~0~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~none~0~1~1

      You might also think about what sort of diner you would enjoy dealing with. Like seniors? Retirement homes. Like working with kids/students? Schools and universities. Sports fans? How about a ballpark/arena–they all seem to have fancy areas as well as the peanuts/hotdogs/nachos snack bars. Are there big event venues near you? See if you can find out if they have an in-house catering firm or a list of preferred caterers and apply there. Depending on your state, register with the employment department and see if they can match you up to jobs.

      Good luck and let us know how it goes.

  112. Which graphics program to study?*

    I thought I posted in the right place but it came up in the wrong place, I’m sorry for the duplication but I really need the help, so I’m posting again in what I hope is the right place.
    =====
    I think I need to buy the software, and teach myself, a graphics program but am not sure which one. I’m a technical writer and have been out of work for [ahem] months (just got a great contract a couple of days ago, I start Monday! Yay!) and notice a trend with tech writer jobs — employers want some graphics capability. Some job listings list Adobe Illustrator or Adobe InDesign. I think there’s another one or two that I can’t remember right now. I very rarely see Photoshop or Corel Draw. I looked up Illustrator and InDesign and they’re different animals — one is more graphics-oriented and the other notice that the Adobe products have a “$9.99 a month” deals and that sounds like a good thing, I think, for my purposes but maybe there’s a catch somewhere. Any and all advice much appreciated!! Thanks.

    1. EmmaBird*

      Hi! Graphic designer here. So, it REALLY depends on the type of graphic work you’ll be doing. Here’s how I’d break it down:

      – Are you expected to do some light photo editing to insert into articles you write? Photoshop would be best for that.
      – Are you expected to design logos or other shape-based designs like complex diagrams? Illustrator is best for that.
      – Are you expected to create newsletters, flyers, or well-designed PDFs of things you’re writing? InDesign is your best bet for that.

      Photoshop is far and away the most versatile of the “big three” in in the Adobe suite. It’s the most flexible and has a lot of Illustrator/InDesign features. It’s not necessarily the other way around for Illustrator and ID. What might be happening with these job descriptions is that they’re written by people who don’t use the software and have been misinformed about what software would work best for what they want to accomplish (I speak from experience). I think it might be worth reaching out to these places and asking WHAT they want you to do with that software. If you get concrete project examples that will help you know what you need to teach yourself– the design field is pretty vast!

      Also, unless I’m unaware of a new pricing structure, you can get photoshop by itself but you cannot get InDesign/Illustrator by themselves– you’d have to pay for the entire suite and that naturally costs more. I hesitate to recommend using any of the CS6 programs (which are free now) because they’re fairly outdated at this point, I wouldn’t want you to learn on those and then be thrown off by changes in the new software.

      If you REALLY want to invest in this I *highly* recommend Lynda.com as an aid while you’re self-teaching– I have access to it at work and am regularly looking up tutorials to pass on to my interns as a way of teaching them when I don’t have time to sit down and do it myself. You might want to see if your local library has access to it, some do!

    2. Havarti*

      InDesign is for doing magazine layouts and spreads, brochures, posters, etc. Illustrator is for making vector drawings, which you can then put into InDesign. Corel isn’t an industry standard these days, I think. Photoshop is good for photos or some folks use it as a painting/drawing program. But raster images are inferior to vector when it comes to printing graphics. Adobe products these days are licensed on a monthly basis and accessed via the cloud or whatever. So that $9.99 a month deal might only be for a short while. If you’re a writer, InDesign would probably benefit you best if you had to learn one of these things.

    3. wingmaster*

      I have the Creative Cloud, and it’s $19.99 a month for the first year for students. Though I don’t use all the programs, I use InDesign, Ai, Lightroom, Photoshop, and Acrobat.

    4. ToodieCat*

      I don’t think I would expect a tech writer to know InDesign or Illustrator. It seems over the top to me. There are so many variables in tech writing jobs (the field you’re writing about, how they share/publish content, etc.) that I don’t think I would get into the illustration side too deep. I’ve had to know InDesign and Illustrator when I was working in marketing, but in all four of my tech writing jobs (all software) just knowing how to use whatever tool to take a screen shot and make basic edits (circles or arrows if those are used, plus cropping,etc.) was enough. There have been a couple times when I wanted to add an illustration that wasn’t a screen shot (what do tech writers drink? SCREEN SHOTS!) like a flowchart or org chart or something, but even then Visio or something else that is simpler than the Adobe products could get me through. Good luck to you!

    5. Which graphics program to study?*

      A great big Thank You!! for all of your advice! I really appreciate it and will carry on my investigations accordingly. As an aside, I agree that job posters won’t necessarily have knowledge about graphics apps and just toss the names in the descriptions willy-nilly, but I think it would be a benefit for me to be able to put one or two of them on my resume for when this contract ends. Thanks again.

  113. Jemima Bond*

    Gather round, children, while Aunt Jemima tells you the story of Schrodingers Promotion and the Immense F*ckw!ttage of HR.

    On Wednesday at about quarter to ten I received notification that I had not attained the required standards and as such had been unsuccessful in a recent promotional recruitment campaign.

    Then at about 4 in the afternoon I had an email congratulating me on my success and containing a promotional job offer.

    But wait! Ninja Assassins’ Guild HR can still snatch f*ckw!ttage from the jaws of triumph.

    I read the job offer in detail and realised I had been offered a role that was not the senior assassin’s role with requirement for specialist sniper skills (which I have) that I had applied for and had a specialists’ salary advertised. It was, whilst at the correct grade, not an assassination specialist role, and owing to the lack of sniper skills required I would become deskilled and not only have to turn in my poison blowpipe but be without opportunity to keep up the skills to gain it back. Plus it is worth about £2,500 of our British pounds less per annum gross, than the advertised salary. Which might not sound much but we’re talking a 5% pay rise rather than about 9%.

    #lowballed

    Preparing for a fight with HR and have emailed the Head Hitman (which is a thing one can do in my org, in extremis, it’s not considered unacceptable as long as you don’t take the mickey).

    Wish me luck. They can pry my poisoned blowpipe metaphor from my cold dead fingers.

  114. Incantanto*

    I have a job interview on wednesday! Wooop.

    Need to write a presentation and the recruiting agent wants to see it beforehand, is this normal?

  115. Anonymosity*

    I want to give a shout-out to admins whose front offices contain a TV and who kindly changed the channel for those of us who for *reasons* could not sit and watch that hearing yesterday.

    I had an interview in the morning, and my blind friend asked for my help taking her cats to the vet yesterday afternoon. I put them in the carrier for her. (Spoiler! They didn’t like it! ;) ) My tension was already high from the interview. The animal hospital also had a friendly office cat; petting her helped. Pic: https://www.instagram.com/p/BoPjkQuh3Dr/?taken-by=dame_writesalot

    I think more places should have a friendly office cat instead of a TV. :)

    1. StellaBella*

      Agree with you on the office cats! Also glad to see you back here – had not seen your other screen name in a while and always liked your comments. Cheers!

    2. Turtlewings*

      My best friend works in a front office where the TV is literally always turned to stuff she finds stressful and aggravating (she has particularly complained about endless episodes of some show about abused women). Her requests to change the channel are consistently ignored, because “the patients like it.” The patients are also only in the waiting room for like, an hour, rather than all day every day. I know she would like a cat so much better!

      (Incidentally, as a heads up, that pic link de-anons you.)

      1. all the candycorn*

        My medical network only ever has HGTV on their waiting room TVs.

        If it has to be news, there’s often a local cable 24-hour-news channel that rotates through stories quickly, with a stronger emphasis on local issues instead of national news. O

    3. Mimmy*

      Hi there! I hope the interview went well :) I’ve been crossing my fingers and toes for you every time I see you post.

  116. Elizabeth the Ginger*

    I’ve had a hard week. Last week I had to take 2.5 days of sick time, not because I was sick, but because my toddler was. It threw me out of feeling on top of things at work, I felt frustrated that I took more time off than my husband (he just started a new, very demanding role at his work and it was easier for me to rearrange things than him this time… but I felt like a bad feminist and like I’m too much of the ‘default parent’ lately), and then this week I was surprised to find out I’d used more sick time than I expected (I left an hour early on a day that was a half-day at my workplace, but it turns out the policy in the handbook says that half days are full days… so I burned 5 hours of sick time, not 1, even though everyone else left long before “close of day”) and took it hard because I felt so nickel-and-dimed by it. (Especially since I came in at night on Yom Kippur, which we’d had off, to do some work so things would go smoothly on Thursday. But I didn’t get sick time credit back for that, because it’s outside of normal working hours.) Also I need to be at work tomorrow for a special event so I don’t get a full weekend.

    I don’t know just what my question is. Maybe just how to feel like I’m still a good professional woman while being a good mom? I feel tired but I also just feel …sad.

    3. Bea*

      Ew that policy is dumb and I want to destroy it with fire! I hate hard line rules on sick leave, no need to punish any one for having an illness or kiddo with an illness. I hope your little one is feeling better.

  117. WMM*

    I’m looking to get back into the career path (engineering) after a decade off to raise kids. I worked for only 5 years, but it was for a very respected organization. How do I deal with references? Of my 3 managers, 2 have retired. A couple of coworkers have moved into management positions. I did my masters degree at a highly ranked school, but so quickly that I didn’t get to know the faculty. The professor I worked for during undergrad 16 years ago thought very well of me. My field has high demand where we now live, but I simply don’t know how to market myself or how to brush up on skills outside of a job. The lack of solid references is my biggest mental stumbling block.

    1. Four lights*

      Even if your former managers have retired, I think they could still be references. You could call and ask them if they’d be willing to. And if you aren’t able to get former managers, I think in a pinch a former coworker who can attest to your work ethic, work product, etc can work.

      1. Ender*

        Yeah if you can get in touch with them they can still be your references. If not then the next most senior person you worked most closely with

    2. periwinkle*

      Not relevant to references, but… some large corporations have begun targeting skilled professionals (particularly in STEM fields) returning to the workforce after taking time off to raise kids. I’ve seen the term “returnship” to describe how they’re transitioning people back into the working world. IBM, Boeing, and Microsoft are among the companies with programs.

      Here’s some info from the Society of Women Engineers:
      https://reentry.swe.org/

    3. zora*

      Personally, I would reach out to a former coworker still in the field, and ask for a lunch to talk over some questions about returning to the field and ask if they can give some resume/reference advice.

      I bet one of them would love to help you, and would be able to give you plenty of advice about first steps since they are probably hiring people all the time.

      I would also draft an email and send it out (individually, though, not all in the same email, but just copy and paste) to any former coworkers or bosses or professors you still have an email for. Saying you are looking to return to the field, you are looking for XYZ type positions, and you would appreciate hearing of any positions, or other tips for making connections> meetings, conferences you should go to, associations you should join, etc. You will probably very quickly hvae people out there pulling for you.

      Good luck!!

      1. WMM*

        This was my initial plan when I stopped working. It never occurred to me that we’d have wonderful reasons to move away from my entire professional network!

  118. anonypissed*

    Short version:

    I was told that I am “too valuable to the team” to receive a promotion to lead a new project at my company, despite my manager recommending me for the role.

    Long version:

    I seem to be perpetually stuck in a half-manager role due to consistently being considered “too valuable” to move onto new and interesting projects.

    I am one of six developers on my current project, but almost all of the work is done by myself and a friend. My manager seems to be content to just have us clean up the messes that my other team members make instead of working with them to improve. It’s been a struggle to get systems in place to improve the quality of our product, but I seem to be finally making progress on that front. Managerial roles seem to be handed out here based on who has been at the company the longest (and is willing to accept the role).

    My company needs to hire a new team as a spin-off contract from my current project. My manager recommended me for the role, because I’ve been acting as almost a back-up manager with the team. I realized that the executives making the decision dismissed me without any consideration (but that’s another story). This week, our HR rep explained to me that reason was that I was “too valuable to the team” and that the project would suffer if I moved to lead a different team. It wasn’t a productive conversation, because even the HR rep felt it was a ridiculous reason. Without me, my team would probably flounder, that’s because of the way it is being managed!

    One of my biggest problems is that isn’t the first time I’ve run into this reason. I’ve heard it at other jobs as a reason for not being given a promotion or not being given an interesting new project. There seems to be a pattern at every company of sending me in to clean up a problem, then giving the new projects to very people who created the mess because they have nothing else to do and I have a full plate. This has resulted in small bonuses and lost promotions. When I am able to get in on a project from the beginning, I produce something high quality that the clients love. I’ve been an “unoffical” manager multiple times in my career, doing all the work without any of the compensation or title.

    I feel there is also a gender component to this. The guys get to throw tantrums over small things, but I’m expected to do “what needs to be done” without disagreement. I feel like my career keeps taking a hit because I have to make up for incompetent coworkers. Meanwhile unqualified men get the projects that I pitched and the promotions that they aren’t qualified for.

    Thanks for listening to me rant. I know that I need to find a new job, but since I’ve run into this at multiple offices (where I’m usually the only female dev), I don’t know how to find a place where this won’t be an issue, short of finding a place with female managers.

    1. CBE*

      UGH this is such a sexist thing!
      I don’t have any magical advice, but I have been there and it’s DEFINITELY a gender thing.

    2. Ender*

      If they reward tantrum throwing maybe you should try throwing tantrum?

      Your manager is on your side? . Be honest with them that you are really unhappy about this, and unless you can come up with a plan together to get you some recognition soon, you will be job searching with all your might.

      1. anonypissed*

        My manager is either unwilling or unable to do anything. He never even started a conversation with me about it. I only know he suggested me for the role because it came up when I asked to be considered. He’s said nothing about me being rejected. I’ve debated talking to him but I have a feeling all he’ll do is shrug at me.

        After all, if he was willing to have tough conversations, then he’d get the rest of the team to do their jobs and then I would be less critical.

    3. miyeritari*

      Ugh, this sucks. Find a company where the dev team is actually diverse – and yes, that’s hard – and get there as fast as your butt will take you.

  119. TV Researcher*

    So, I definitely feel like I have imposter syndrome. Possibly warranted; possibly not. I don’t know that I have a question here, or if this is more like a vent or just me trying to lay out my feelings.

    I pop in the open threads every so often, but mostly I’m a lurker. Brief recap… May 2017, I was diagnosed with cancer. Had surgery, followed by chemo and radiation and finished treatment October 2017 (almost a year!). My last few quarterly scans have been clean, so I’m officially in NED-land (No Evidence of Disease). A co-worker/friend passed away from cancer in July 2017, which really threw me for a loop, as we were theater buddies and she was my cancer mentor. Everyone should have one.

    Aside from the 5 weeks I was on disability after my surgery, I worked throughout my treatment. I would take chemo day as a sick day and work from home the rest of the week. Then I’d be back in the office for 2 weeks until it all started again. When possible I did go in to work later and left earlier, though I probably did too much too soon.

    I definitely had (and probably still have a bit of) chemo brain, which as I work with numbers is not great, but my office has been fantastically understanding. I work in a weird position in that I’m sort of the only who does precisely what I do in my department. Although, not really because everyone can do what I do; they just don’t. Or, rather that was the situation.

    Yesterday, my division experienced a reorg and I was moved to another (newly created) department. I still have the same uber-boss, and I’ll still sit in the same spot and apparently for the immediate future do the same tasks, but I’m now reporting to a new boss, who is on the other coast. As is his boss. So, I’m the only person in my newly created department who is on my coast, which can be weird. I think I’m nervous that my chemo brain (as it still crops up, especially later in the day) will cause me to miss things and my new bosses won’t have the historical of my usual solid (I hope) work product. I do take take notes and such to alleviate me having to remember things, but sometimes I do slip up.

    And, I’m just confused as to what my position is. I’m supposed to be the intermediary between my old department and my new department, but no one really knows what that means. And I’ll still be going to the meetings with my old department (and am still on the birthday calendar). And at least for the short term (as my new boss is about to go on paternity leave any day now), my old boss will still be asking me to pull the same data I’ve been pulling. I think things will settle when my new boss gets back from paternity leave, but for now, I’m just planning on keeping my head down and doing whatever tasks my former boss gives me (luckily we’re in our busiest time, so I shouldn’t be at a loss of things to do).

    It just feels weird, as it’s not a promotion, as I have the same title and same pay. And, I think in the long term, it might be good for me, as it will give me more visibility (though the imposter syndrome is asking whether that’s actually a good thing). And then I keep wondering what if the long term plan is for this spot to be on the other coast. At this point, I absolutely can not leave my doctors. Or, at least, I really, really don’t want to. But, on the upside, I’ve heard that I was requested to join this department and my old boss says she tried to fight (a losing battle).

    I guess I do have a question… for people who live on the opposite coasts as their bosses, how was it? Do you have any tools or tips to make things run more smoothly.

    2. EmmaBird*

      Not sure I can be much help on the job front except to say that I would outline a plan for regular communication that you’re both comfortable with to help make the transition easier.

      But I followed a very similar path as you as a fellow cancer survivor– I was on short-term disability after surgery and worked through chemo, taking sick days as needed. Don’t be afraid to address the chemo brain stuff with your oncologist– it’s a little unusual to still be having noticeable issues with that one year out just based on hearing the experiences of survivors in my support groups. And don’t let them dismiss it!

      I definitely felt uncomfortable for a while as I got back into the swing of things at work (I’m 2 years out from chemo)– not sure if your diagnosis was as sudden as mine but I felt like I was having to rediscover myself as a person entirely– both at work and at home. I went to therapy to deal with personal issues and discovered that part of my struggle at work was still tied to my cancer experience and that helped clear up some of my “imposter syndrome” feelings I had because I was taking on more responsibility at work post-chemo.

      All of that to say, in my experience cancer really takes a toll on your self-image and self-esteem in ways that are really long-lasting and that are sometimes hard to recognize. My reading of your story is that I do think you have some imposter syndrome if my total outsider opinion means anything!

    3. Lucille2*

      I’ve been a boss on the opposite coast, and another time, in another continent than some of my direct reports. Here are some things I think helped:
      1) Be mindful of the timezone difference. When I work with global teams, I have to consider if they need something by end of day, it’s likely end of their day not mine.
      2) Get to know your boss’s expectations on your availability/visibility. Make sure you’re easily reached during your work hours.
      3) Set expectations early on. Clearly establish your working hours and establish some healthy non-working hours boundaries. If you’re one to check email after-hours like I am, don’t feel a need to respond if it isn’t urgent.
      4) Keep your calendar up to date and confirm timezones when setting things up. I use Outlook and share my calendar with my direct reports so they know when I’m not available. Be careful though, some appointments need to be set to private or just set it as out of office for a personal appointment.

      Also, I have a close family member who is dealing with chemo brain. She has experienced a lot of the same issues you’ve described. My sympathies to you. I don’t think most people realize the toll chemo has on a person in the long term. I hope you have a good support system that will help you through this transition.

  120. Oh, Snap!*

    I’m self employed wedding photographer and have been most of my adult life. The past several years have been full of huge life changes and along with it came some really serious depression. Everything came to a head last year when my Dad was diagnosed with cancer and I took on a roll of caregiver throughout his treatments. I warned all my clients that I would likely take longer than usual to get them their images and everyone was super understanding. Fast forward to this year and the depression has gotten more severe and I’m also dealing with insomnia and anxiety. I’m finding it really hard to finish images by my (self imposed) deadlines. I’ve stopped taking on new clients temporarily, been outsourcing as much as I can and of course seeing a therapist, taking medication, exercising, etc but it’s just taking me forever to get through the work.
    So my question is how do I address this with my clients? Do I tell them about the depression, just ask for forgiveness, give up and hide under a pile of coats? It’s not taking me months on end to finish and I’m delivering excellent quality work, just maybe a week or two later than I initially promised. Trying to set a deadline for myself sets off my anxiety but I need to be able to give my clients assurances that they will get their images and it won’t take months, I just don’t really know how long it will take. I have one client I need to call today to give her an update on her photos when they are already a week late and one client I need to do a follow up with and make sure she’s happy with how everything turned out.
    I should also add that because I photograph weddings and families I have a much more intimate relationship with my clients than is normal. I was at their side on one of the happiest days of their lives (literally and figuratively; I work really hard to make sure their day goes smoothly), I know their families and about family dramas and have seen many of them in various states of undress. With my family clients I’ve watched their kids grow up and have been to their homes and all my clients know a lot about me and my family. In other words, I have deeply human relationships with them which is why I don’t feel like a boilerplate response is appropriate.
    So how do I talk about this while being a professional and keeping my humanity?

    1. Doug Judy*

      First, good for you for addressing your depression with a therapist!

      Second, I don’t think you need to go into details with clients, maybe a simple “I aim to have images edited and to you in X weeks. However I am dealing with some health issues, so just to be up front if it is going to be longer than that, I will let you know”

    2. Four lights*

      First of all, I would say a week or two later than initially promised isn’t that long. If my photog did that, it’d be fine. If it were more than that, you could give a discount.

      If you want to tell them what’s going on more than “personal issues” or “family issues” you could say: “My dad had cancer and I was his caregiver. It really took a lot out of me and it’s been a bit of a struggle and I’m still dealing with that. Because of that I find I’m not able to get through my work as quickly as I have in the past.”

      1. Oh, Snap!*

        Love this! Thank you! Honestly, just writing it all out helped frame it differently in my own mind. Being self employed can be so isolating sometimes.

    3. CBE*

      I’ve worked as a photographer and have been self employed for a while. Just outsource your editing. All of it. Let go of control. Find a company that has a similar style to yours and hand it ALLLL over.
      You can still do album design if you want to – the storytelling aspects of that are so much better than the tedium of editing, IMO, and it seems you value that connection, so keeping the storytelling part of the job might be important to you.
      Do be vague about your health issues if you do feel you need to disclose.
      And I sincerely hope that clearing your backlog helps lift some of the oppression you feel and helps you feel lighter and happier.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Yes! Four Lights has a great approach to the clients, but outsourcing the “stuck” part is a great step for making your life easier overall. Coping with any health issue is work. Managing your overall workload with that in mind is not a cop-out, it’s a wise choice.

        If you love & miss the editing, you can always take it back when you feel better.

    4. Ender*

      Most wedding photographers are more than a week late! Even the ones without depression! You’re being too hard on yourself.

    5. Persimmons*

      I got married in June and didn’t have my photos in time for Christmas. No apology. I think you’re fine.

  121. Unexpected Dragon*

    I keep finding myself in a good, but increasingly problematic situation; I keep getting promoted over my peers. I’ve been with the same company for about 4 years. In that time, I’ve gone from line worker -> team lead -> boss of original team -> 2nd in command of the (slightly) larger division. I’ve worked my butt off to earn all of this, stepped up when the stepping mattered, won the respect and trust of the people who matter. My team doesn’t resent this, I think.

    My problem is with work friendships. The things that weren’t my responsibility to shut down are now, but I have a history of silently letting them ride. The venting that’s okay to do with your peer needs to be wildly reframed when it’s with your supervisor.

    Any tips of navigating this type of transition?

    1. Reba*

      I don’t have any tips, but Alison has written several times about supervisor friendships, so have a look through the archives for similar questions from others. Good luck!

    2. been there*

      I’ve had some similar experience with a situation not too different from yours. Without knowing your details, the most helpful things I can offer may sound a bit superficial, but I can only say that these ideas did help me. I suggest incremental changes, maybe not enough for everybody to notice, but perhaps just enough that the sharpest, highest-EQ staff might pick up on the cues.

      Depending on your workplace culture, dress up just a little bit more on some days, particularly Mondays and Thursdays, when you come in to the office earlier than usual.

      When your work friends vent, be ready to stare straight ahead. Take a second without responding at all. Then look at the venter, making eye contact just long enough, before you go back to work without responding. Depending on who the venter is, and what your relationship was like with them before you were promoted, you have to calibrate this performance. It will get easier with practice, and as new staff are hired in and only see the newer you.

      You had a history of silently letting the complaints ride, but in your higher-status role, that seems to have stopped working. You have to tune up your signaling without turning into a jerk. You have to develop the skills to teach your subordinates who used to be your pals how to relate to you now. It will be lonely in some ways, rewarding in others. Own it. Good luck!

  122. DrinkingBlackCoffee*

    I am in the final stages of interviewing at a private equity firm to work as the assistant to an executive. Through my current job, I have access to “third party source” comments and happened to have found 1 on this woman – it says that she is extremely difficult to work with and the office was better off without her in it. I am meeting her on Monday for my final interview, and I was hoping someone might be able to help me come up with ways /good targeted questions to figure out if she is actually terrible?

    1. EA*

      Ooof. My inclination is to believe that comment and run, don’t walk, away from this job. But if you have a high tolerance for punishment as long as you’re well payed, go for it…

      If you can, you should try to interview with other people in EA roles at that company. It’s a very reasonable request — interviews go two ways! You’d hear one perspective from a hiring manager, a different perspective from the person you’d be working for, and probably the most honest perspective from someone in that same role.

      Outside of that option, you could ask the executive herself something like:
      “What qualities do you strongly value in an assistant?”
      “Where have you run into frustrations in the past and how do you hope the next person in this position differs?”
      “How do you respond to mistakes and miscommunications – do you initiate a conversation with the employee or is there another protocol?”

      Good luck! I’ve been an EA, and then a legal assistant, for years. I hate it.

      1. EA*

        PS: I once started a job where NO ONE told me about the reputation of the person I would be supporting. She seemed very nice, very busy and professional, no red flags came up.
        On the very first day, the employee who had been holding down the position until someone was hired told me: I wouldn’t work for her if they paid me a million dollars. And yunno what? After two months they fired me because I took too long editing a powerpoint for this dragon lady. Yep.

    2. StellaBella*

      Hmmmm.
      I’ve got a bit of advice but not sure if it will help.
      1. Go with your gut. Like really. First, just assess the situation, her, everything. Feel it.
      2. Ask her what she loves about the work/department/colleagues/company. This will give you a sense (maybe) of how she is.
      3. Ask her how she manages difficult situations and how she’d expect you to manage them…
      Also – I am not clear on where the comment came from – is it possible the person who commented on her is the difficult one?

    3. Anna*

      When we interview, we get asked what our bosses would say about us. Why not something like that? She’s not going to come right out and say she’s terrible, but she might give you a clue to what she expects and if it’s reasonable (to a reasonable person).

    4. Aphrodite*

      Among others, I have always used the following question in interviews when it’s my turn to ask them: “If you could step outside yourself and see yourself objectively how would you describe yourself?” What you want to hear is how they see themselves as you would see them, as their subordinate so you can re-phrase the question to your liking if you want to use it.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      I got a lot of insights from the comments posted to this prior AAM posting, about what questions to ask in an interview to learn more about how mistakes at work get handled, and is located here: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/02/open-thread-february-23-24-2018.html#comment-1866220. Here are some of the questions/comments people posed for interviewees to ask:

      –“How do you deliver criticism?”
      –“How do you deliver feedback” or “What types of feedback do you give to your reports?”
      –“How is [employee] success measured here?”
      –“What form does communication take between boss and report?”
      –Someone who screams at people isn’t going to admit that out loud, but they also won’t give a very convincing answer. They might try to be vague, or they might try to make a joke like the person above said.
      However, if someone gives a good, detailed explanation of their reasonable communication practices, you can be pretty sure they are a good boss. If they avoid the question, run away run away!!!
      –I would ask specifically something like “How do you handle coaching and correction?” People who don’t know how to handle coaching and correction in a professional manner will not be able to answer it.
      –I’ve asked about how feedback is handled, both formally and informally.

      Also take a look at the comment thread here: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/02/open-thread-february-23-24-2018.html#comment-1866662
      –“What did you do the last time an employee told you they were overloaded?” Or “Do you ever have targets set by you or those above you that your team has trouble meeting?”

  123. The Casual Crossword and AAM Friday*

    About a month ago I recently changed departments. Officially I am just on “loan” from my normal department while they had several people go on leave. I will only be in this department until November, but I absolutely love it here. My normal boss is incredibly cruel, yelling at me and critiquing me each and every week and giving me ridiculous tasks (as in going through a database of 190,000 people and getting rid of duplicates by hand and giving me a two week deadline) and has repeatedly gone through my trash. I honestly finally don’t dread coming into work and leave at the end of the day and am happy, I can tangibly feel a significant difference in my mood and those around me have noticed as well. I would love to work in this new office, but as of right now, everyone will be coming back come November and they don’t have the staff budget to bring me on. Any advice?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Assuming you really can’t stay in that dept long term, use this time of calm and relative happiness at work to job search?

    2. Four lights*

      It sounds like you’ve realized your normal job stinks. You could start brainstorming ways to get out of it. Maybe you can transfer to a different department than the one you’re in, or maybe you should start looking for a new job.

    3. I Am Bad at Decisions*

      I have been looking for a new job, but just nothing is panning out. In my field, nothing really opens up position wise in my field until November/January

  124. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

    I found out my office mate is on a PIP. He knows what he needs to do to improve, and they have had frank discussions about his performance or lack thereof. They are monitoring and documenting everything, including the phone things, excessive breaks, all of it. I asked for a meeting with my managers as this seemed so far out of the norm, and while they wouldn’t go into all the details, I am satisfied they’re addressing it.

    So I’m just going to do my job to the best of my ability and ignore him. I suspect he’s going to find himself in a different place before long.

    1. Utoh!*

      I think my coworker must also be on a PIP because I’ve never seen him do as much work as he has in the past couple of months. He still sucks, but he sucks less than before… Hopefully it’s *not* enough to keep him around much longer. Either that, or I get a terrific job with the same or better pay, oodles of vacation time, and a shorter commute!

  125. Career Change Advice Seeker*

    I’m getting ready to apply to a masters program in Counseling with a Clinical Mental Health Concentration. I’d like to become a school counselor and/or start a private therapy practice. I’m in Southern Maine… I’ve got about 10 years of totally unrelated work experience and I’m starving for a change.

    I’d be SO appreciative for any input from people in this field! What do you wish you knew back when you were just getting started? Which degrees are more highly regarded?

  126. Sigh*

    I applied for a job that closed on Wednesday and just discovered they extended the application timeline. I didn’t get a rejection email so I don’t even know if I’m out of the running, but my current work situation is so emotionally draining and after being rejected so many times, I am just rung out. Hoping I’m just being paranoid, but feeling defeated.

    1. Peter Guilherme*

      It’s really important not to hang your hopes on one job. In fact, I try to forget about a job as soon as I send the application.

      I’ve been trying to connect with my friends a lot more and do more events with them. I also am trying to pick up more hobbies like cooking and . Capitalism has an alienating effect both from other people and from the effects of our own labor, so its important to periodically remind yourself that you’re much much more than what you do for money.

    2. Bea*

      They probably just need more of an applicant pool. Maybe yours was one of just five received. Yours could be right on top but they’re like “we want to make sure to see if there’s any more to look into.”

  127. I Am Bad at Decisions*

    At work, we have the news on (with volume) all day. It is only a two room office so I work in the main office where the TV is. Several years ago, I was assaulted in a way very similar to what the current hearings are talking about, but it went a lot further in my case. I feel incredibly upset watching the hearings and it is bringing back a lot of bad memories for me. We don’t have an HR department and I don’t get along incredibly well with my boss and don’t feel comfortable bringing it to her. All I want is just to either have the volume off or have the tv turned off for a week or two until this is over.

    1. StellaBella*

      Aside from asking directly, maybe “accidentally vacuum over the plug cord and wow, it’s cut now?” In all seriousness, I am very sorry, and send you big internet hugs of support in this time.

    2. Utoh!*

      Unfortunately, the only thing you can do is ask that the volume be turned down or the television turned off. Can you say it’s distracting you from your work? Why is the television on at all, is it part of the work you do?

    3. I Am Bad at Decisions*

      I work in politics so the news is pretty poignant. Since we have always done this for the past year or so, I don’t see a way to explain that all of the sudden it is distracting. To be clear, we technically do have HR but they essentially do nothing since we are all at will employees.

      1. Utoh!*

        Well, in that case, try to be extra kind to yourself, take more frequent breaks as needed, and reach out to friends/family for support. You probably could turn the volume down a bit as well, do you think anyone would notice if you did?

        1. I Am Bad at Decisions*

          I probably could, I am always the first one in the office. They probably wouldn’t notice. Thanks for the idea.

  128. Working 2 part-time Jobs?*

    Has anyone worked 2 part-time job? Right now I work doing bookkeeping at a restaurant from 11am-5pm. I had an interview for another job that could be about 10-15 hours a week. For her to train me she wants me to work from 12pm-3pm. And they were like well after you are trained you can work whatever hours but I just don’t know how to get both jobs to work at the beginning.

    I don’t even know what to do I haven’t been able to find anything full-time to replace my restaurant job….so I thought part-time could work but it seems so complicated.

    1. KR*

      You’ll have to ask your restaurant job to give you days off for training. Could the second job train you early morning? The long and the short of it is that they are paying you part time so they aren’t paying you to not have other commitments during the week.

    2. Shelly*

      Yes, I’ve been amazed at how insensitive part-time work is when it comes to the training period. I applied to a part-time job that would be weekend coverage for a pediatric office, but they wanted me to be available for two weeks of 8-5 training. Haha, there’s no way I can make that work with my current job

      1. Working 2 part-time Jobs?*

        Right? I had an interview for a job like that it was going to be a part-time call center type job in the health field but the training was more hours than the actual job…at the time I didn’t mind b/c I wasn’t working at all but I still found it strange.

        I think the hardest part is so many part time jobs are hours where it’s not really part time but not really where you can do 2 of them.

        I probably can make it work but it’s just annoying lol

    3. Xarcady*

      Could you see if you could flex the restaurant hours for however long you need to train? Otherwise, you’d have to take time off.

      A few years back, when I couldn’t find full-time work, I tried to make 2 part-time jobs work. But the number of part-time jobs that were 30 hours a week was huge. And most of the part-time jobs, even office jobs, wanted you to have evening and weekend availability–even though the office was closed at those times. I suspect that employers had previously had employees who had two part-time jobs, and they just didn’t like having to juggle schedules or not be an employee’s top priority.

      One of your jobs is going to have to flex a little to accommodate the other and my experience is that employers don’t like to do that very much. I have a temp full-time job and a permanent part-time retail job. Several months ago, the store started scheduling me every Saturday and every Sunday, instead of one weekend day and a few nights. I finally had to tell them I simply could not keep working seven days a week–they knew I had another job; almost all their part-time employees do. I was exhausted after working six months with only one day off in that whole time. There was weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, but I was prepared to walk away from the job and just find another that would be more accommodating, and so they caved and put me back to my old schedule. But it was unpleasant for a while there.

    4. Turtlewings*

      For about eight months I worked two part-time jobs while looking for my current full-time. I learned quickly that you have to be extremely firm and direct (particularly with retail employers) about what hours you are and are not available. It’s like training a dog, if you give them an inch they’ll take a mile. It also helps to know very clearly in your own mind (but don’t say it to them!) which job takes priority if there’s a conflict.

      It does sound like the best/only thing you can do is ask the restaurant if you can adjust your hours for just the short time (a week? two weeks?) of training. If they won’t budge, you can try to see if the new job will budge. Nothing to lose by trying.

      (If by chance the training is only a couple of days… well, I’d be sorely tempted to call in sick to the other job and not risk being denied permission.)

  129. StellaBella*

    Hi all, I need some advice. I am looking through the site, and on a few other sites, too but would love direct feedback from anyone who’s “refined the direction of their careers” and by this I mean that I have:
    1. Worked in software project management (10 years)
    2. Took a break of 6 months, then went to work for rights/water/environmentally-focused non-profits (9.5 years)
    3. Took another break of 18 months to do an intensive Master of Science course that I have just completed and now…
    I want to work in Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) consulting. I have revised my LinkedIn to be clear on this desire, and I am connecting with EIA recruiters and applying for jobs in this field.
    Advice on how to break into this field – internationally preferred as am in Europe now. How can I sell my broad experience (which there is a common thread of management and communications throughout) and desire to refine my career focus in my cover letters? My CV I customise/tweak for each job I apply for.
    Thanks in advance for any advice or guidance.

  130. Lady Kelvin*

    I just got back from a trip where I spent 24 hours (literally) each way on a plane and crossed 12 time zones for an 8 hour meeting, of which I was only necessary for a 20 minute talk + 30 minute discussion. It was good to see a bunch of former colleagues, but I spent more time in the air than I did on the ground in the country I traveled to. What’s the most ridiculous travel you’ve had to do for work?

    1. Sharkie*

      Not me but a friend. Flew to the East coast for a conference, but had an important meeting in a different zone in the middle of the conference. Woke up on on the east coast, lead a breakfast meeting, recorded a recruiting video, went to the airport was in the air at 10:45 est. Land in the meeting city, at 11:45 local time, meeting at 1, left for the airport at 1:45, in the air at 2:30, back on the east coast by 7pm for the conference dinner / happy hour.

      Y’all are rock stars. I couldn’t do it

    2. Be the Change*

      Drove 12 hours back home with 4 people in a car after a retreat that ended at 5 pm because our grant-funded non-profit group didn’t want to spring for one more night of hotel. Got home at 7:00 am with a speeding ticket (mine).

      Drove 2000 miles with 6 people in an RV to another retreat. 4 of them (the men) stayed in the RV and the 2 women got a $49 hotel room to share. Again, $$. Good times, good times…

    4. Lucille2*

      I have a colleague who travelled from LA to NYC to host a full day workshop only for the client to cancel when she was in flight.

  131. New Cubicle Dweller*

    I have a cubicle now!!!! I’m very excited because I used to be at a shared workstation, so I couldn’t keep anything at the desk. What surprising thing have you found for your desk?

    So far the only personalization I have is a fake succulent (because I am a millennial and it’s mandatory for me to like succulents).

    1. INTJ*

      My wall sign that reads, NATIONAL SARCASM SOCIETY… like we need your support, and mouse pad: Introverts unite. We’re here. We’re uncomfortable. And we want to go home.

      2. BadWolf*

        I love both of those. Reminds me of the protest signs that say something to the effect, “You know it’s bad when the introverts are here.”

      3. INTJ*

        Aw, thanks to both of you. I also have a dozen plants and a Jeopardy daily calendar. I work in a place that allows for tons of personalization, but I’m most productive in a minimalist environment, so that’s about it.

  132. Uncomfortable and Unsure*

    I am a new hire (a little over 2 months) at a business corporation. In my team/department it consists of mostly, if not all, middle aged women, so I am the youngest on the team. They have been here for a combined total of over 100 years. They are great people and have been great trainers and supporters. However, with the recent testimony of Dr. Blasey Ford and Judge Kavanaugh, I am very disturbed by their responses. In our open cubicle area they have been saying she was a drunk, a s*&t, and that women like that are just in it for the money and deserve what they get. Now I don’t care what their political affiliations are, but today they started getting even more aggressive in their language. I don’t like all this language in general, let alone a very sensitive topic for me personally.

    Should I go to my manager and voice my concerns, or maybe an HR rep? I’m a new hire and don’t want to over step boundaries, but I had to go to the bathroom today so they wouldn’t see how upset I was. I’ve been listening to music on my headphones but I can still hear them saying the hateful words very loudly. While the confirmation hearings (etc.) should be over soon, I have a feeling this won’t be the only time something like this is discussed in the office.

    1. disney+coffee*

      It’s probably worth reaching out and just saying in a causal manner something along the lines of “Hey, I realize that this is an important event happening today and I understand that you have some strong opinions on it, but sexual assault is a really sensitive topic for me for reasons that I don’t feel comfortable discuss in the workplace. I’d really appreciate it if you would keep the discussions on the Kavanaugh nomination to a minimum around me at least.” Just leave it at that and really work to treat them no differently than you had before.

      If they push back after this or continue talking loudly about it, I think then you should take it to your manager/HR. I just think that it’s a little preemptive to bring it to further at this point, and I think it would show your maturity by speaking to these women personally.

      1. Uncomfortable and Unsure*

        Thank you for the response. I really needed some advice on this and I think what you said is great. They’re currently speaking about it now so wish me luck

  133. Back to school*

    Next month I am going to start substitute teaching after being out of education for over a decade. Feeling a bit nervous. I would welcome any tips or suggestions from other subs. I was an early elementary school teacher, but I will be subbing at all grade levels K through 12, so I’m a little concerned about the jr/sr high classes.

    1. Four lights*

      You could ask to shadow a teacher for part of the day, to get a feel for the older kids. Also, for high school there tends to be less instruction work for subs to do. A lot of teachers will give silent desk work, or documentaries or the like. An acquaintance of mine told me he would tell the kids, “I’m here to take attendance, hand out work and keep the peace.”

      If it’s an unfamiliar school I would definitely ask to visit ahead of time to know where classes are, etc. I had a school where two wings were labeled “POD” and had no idea where I was supposed to go for hall patrol. Try to learn about procedures like fire drills, hall pass policies and how to kick kids out of class.

    2. Subbing*

      Seeing this late, but wear flats and take a simple lunch that can be eaten at room temperature. In my experience, subs are always given coverages with no consideration given for where you are in the building(s). I had to out-and-out run many times to fight through student hallway traffic and get to the assigned classroom on time. Assume that any prep or free periods for your assigned teacher will be coverages for you.

    3. Teaching the world to sing*

      So much depends on the school environment and the quality of plans left by the teacher. What I want most from a sub is someone who will actually follow the plans that I leave – they are not busy work, my AP students need to complete these assignments.
      Since you’ve taught before you know this – start strong – take control of the classroom. Everyone should be quiet while you take attendance, etc.
      The good news is that most students would rather stare at their smartphone than cause trouble, so if you have the class where there are no plans or the students finish early (or choose not to do work) they will probably quietly entertain themselves.
      Make friends with the person in charge of sub assignments. If they like you they will put you in the prime assignments.
      Most of all, thank you for subbing. We currently have a shortage and I appreciate motivated caring subs.
      Oh, and I apologize in advance if no one welcomes you at lunch. I only have 30 minutes for lunch and want to talk with my friends. I am too selfish to reach out to the subs in the cafeteria.

  134. katherine*

    A couple people have brought up the hearing yesterday and vote today, which is going to start any minute now. What do you tell your bosses about the reason why you are intermittently leaving your desk, crying at work, zonked out due to antidepressants or anti-anxiety pills if you’ve got those? Based on what I know about my boss’s views on Donald Trump I have no reason to think she doesn’t believe Ford. But I also know that all of the former can be issues that alarm bosses. And I also know that I’m not up to the task of having A Conversation about the hearings with her (or anyone, honestly, right now). I don’t know how everyone else is doing. I haven’t seen or heard anyone visibly upset on my team, but I do know that like 5 people took off yesterday (my manager included), almost all woman. Which of course can mean anything, but, timing.

    2. blackcat*

      I think it’s fine to be vague and say, “I’m just having a tough time and trying to focus on the work.”

      I’ve decided to lean into the rage. It helps with the other emotions, I think. I’m visibly Pissed. Off. People are staying away from me. Obviously won’t work for everyone–easier for me because my personal trauma is so far in the past. But rage feels productive in a way hopelessness does not.

    3. LilySparrow*

      “The news this week/today is very fraught for a lot of people. I’m trying to tune it all out, but of course that’s not always easy.”

      I find that using phrases like “naturally,” “of course,” “I’m sure you know,” or even “obviously” put me in a more confident position that my feelings (or health issues, or unpopular decisions) are reasonable and justified. They also set the expectation that the hearer is a human being with a normal level of social empathy.

  135. Purple Jello*

    How do I encourage my daughter to quit complaining and do what she needs to do to get another job?

    She graduated a year and a half ago with a teaching degree, but hasn’t yet submitted her portfolio to the state licensing office, so she’s not a certified teacher and is working at a daycare. She hates it, they’re understaffed, they don’t pay well, they call her a teacher but she’s just a glorified babysitter, she doesn’t get lunch or breaks anywhere near on time, works late, they don’t let her discipline the kids just “redirect”, etc. etc.

    I just offer to assist with her portfolio submission package, and tell her if she doesn’t like her job she needs to work on finding something else. She lives with us and we don’t make her pay rent/room and board so she can pay off her loans faster, but she does help around the house.

    I’m getting really tire of her bad moods, when she doesn’t make much effort to change her situation. Suggestions for me?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      “Yeah, that sounds rough. What are you going to do about it?” on repeat. And if she just complains, tell her that you’re not willing to listen to that, but will be happy to serve as a sounding board for constructive planning.

      Also, I understand you wanting to help her pay off her student loans, but it might be wise to charge her rent. You could always save it up and gift it back later so she can apply it to her loans then. Point being, in general, adults have to pay for somewhere to live (rent/mortgage), and since she doesn’t pay rent there may be a weird impact on her thought processes/emotions.

      1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

        I second the suggestion to charge her some living expenses. If she realizes her finances are plain old untenable, maybe that’ll light a fire under her to get licensed and find a better paying and more satisfying job.

        Also, encourage her to seek out a therapist. If her job frustrations are taking over the temperature and dialogue in your home as much as it sounds like they are, it’s fair of you to put that out there.

      2. AeroEngineer*

        I second on making her pay rent. I have a really good friend who ended up moving back home, and he (like last time he moved home) lost all motivation to change the situation he was in.

        I agree on the “Yeah, that sounds rough. What are you going to do about it?”. Try to change the conversation to what she plans to do instead of just complaining.

      3. BusyBee*

        To me, the rent thing depends on whether she is really paying down her loans aggressively. If she is, then it would be very kind of her parents to let her focus on that. However, if she’s not, then charge rent.

        My mom let me live home rent-free after I graduated, and it was a huge gift. I paid off 50k in loans over two years, and then was able to buy a home soon after that. It was the greatest, kindest gift anyone has ever given me to allow me to focus on the loans during that time. However, it was clear between Mom and I that if I hadn’t paid off my loans as aggressively, I would be expected to contribute financially to the household.

    2. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      Perhaps encourage her to start seeing a therapist and/or a career coach. When friends or family members are at their wits’ end supporting someone going through a tough time… it’s usually time for that person to see a therapist. You aren’t a bottomless cup for her to pour all her worries and frustrations into.
      Be honest that her job frustrations are beyond your control and it’s beginning to be difficult for you to be on the receiving end.

    3. KR*

      Maybe saying something like, “This isn’t the first time time you’ve mentioned your work being frustrating. I love you and I support you but I also want to say that this will not get better if you don’t take the steps to get your teaching certification. It simply won’t. “

      1. Purple Jello*

        “… but I also want to say that this will not get better if you don’t take the steps to get your teaching certification…”
        This is perfect! Thank you. I haven’t actually stated that.

    4. Purple Jello*

      Thank you all, she is going to counseling already, but I don’t really have details on what they talk about. She pays all of her student loan payments (over half her take-home) plus the car loan. We told her before graduation that she could stay rent free if (other various conditions), which she is meeting, so I hesitate to change the terms at this point. It is in the back of our heads.

      However, we could start charging her for her cell phone, and I’ve started mentioning that if she really wants (whatever extra) at the grocery store that she could buy it herself.

      This looks like the next steps: “Yeah, that sounds rough. What are you going to do about it?” and “I love you and I support you but I also want to say that this will not get better if you don’t take the steps to get your teaching certification”.

      Of course, some of the things she stresses about will be the case regardless of the type of job. Sigh.

      1. CM*

        You might give her a timeframe rather than starting to make her pay for stuff now.

        It sounds like you need to have a conversation with her, saying you’re concerned that she seems unhappy with her situation but you don’t see her taking steps to change it. You mentioned counseling — you might want to ask questions about whether something is blocking her from moving forward, like is she recovering from some trauma or having some other issue you don’t know about? And then you can tell her that from your point of view, it looks like she needs to get her teaching certification and pursue a teaching position. You can ask her if she agrees and if not, how does she see it?

        If after all of this, you haven’t learned anything that changes your mind, then I think you could say that you love and support her and you want to encourage her to take steps to help herself, so starting on X date you will be giving her increased financial responsibility, work she needs to do, or whatever else you think is fair and will help light a fire under her.

      2. I'm A Little Teapot*

        There is a learning curve involved when moving from the protected world of school into the real world of work. And everyone learns at different rates.

    5. OhGee*

      I agree with the other commenters – my sister, who is a preschool teacher, dragged her feet on the final steps to licensure, as well. She also languished in daycare for several years. There was very little any of us could do to make her actually take the steps to finish, other than listen to her fears and concerns and talk through solutions. It’s up to you how long yo do that.

      I would definitely consider charging some sort of rent, but I’m also not a parent. I paid some rent in the brief time I lived with my mom post-college.

    6. Langerhan*

      Does she (or do you) know any teachers she could talk to? She might not realise just how unusual and avoidable her situation is without someone in the profession talking to her about it.

  136. Monty & Millie's Mom*

    I know I’m late to the game, but hoping to get some advice anyway! Just this morning I accepted a new position! Yay! Very exciting, and most likely a MUCH better fit for me! However, the start date is October 29th, so I wasn’t planning to let my current employer know for a couple weeks yet. Due to the health insurance situation, though, I want to inquire about COBRA from my current employer – I’d need to pay the full premium price for insurance through the new job until the new year, so for 2 months, and I wanted to compare the COBRA price to the range I was given today for the full premium price for the new. So is there a good way to ask HR here about COBRA now, without tipping my hand, or should I do it anyway, even if it tips my hand, and just let my supervisor know sooner than I’d wanted to? I don’t think they’ll force me out or anything, but it seemed prudent to wait, ya’ know? Any thoughts?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I believe COBRA is typically just the full premium, so it would be the employee + employer portions. You can probably get this from a pay stub.

    2. De Minimis*

      You have 60 days after leaving employment to make a decision about COBRA, so I’d say just wait until you originally planned on giving notice.

  137. MsChanandlerBong*

    I would appreciate some advice on handling this situation. For background, my job is to manage a team of freelance writers. I review their work, provide feedback, do performance coaching, and so forth. Writers are free to work whenever they want, but each assignment does have a deadline that is clearly stated in the order details.

    We have a freelancer who has some health issues that have made her unreliable. As many of you know, I have had chronic health issues my entire life, including a recent heart attack and the development of a precancerous blood disorder. I have every sympathy for people with health issues, and I will go out of my way to accommodate their needs as much as I can. However, this is a tough situation, as we have to deliver content by the client’s deadline. When a writer disappears or asks for an extension an hour before the task is due, it really puts us in a rough spot. This has happened several times. It’s not like an office job where it doesn’t really matter what time she gets to work as long as the work gets done; we are working with firm deadlines. She’s a freelancer, so FMLA doesn’t apply, but it wouldn’t apply anyway since the company is so small and she hasn’t worked with us for a year.

    I want to come up with a solution that works for all parties, but I don’t see one at this time.

    1. Xarcady*

      I used to work with freelance translators.

      One guy was always late, so, based on the size of the job, we’d give him a deadline 1-5 days before we really needed it. Once, when he messed up big time and not only used up the three extra days we’d given him, but got the job in three days after that, the owner of the company called him and informed him that he would get paid, but because he sent the work in six days late, his payment would be reduced. I don’t know how much they reduced his payment, but he started being only 3-4 hours late after that.

      The thing was, with the work we were giving him, he should have known well before the due date that he was going to be late. We had evidence on a couple of jobs that he didn’t start the work until after the due date that we gave him–he did not know that his due dates were fake.

      So the owner also laid out some requirements for him–he had to notify us at least 24 hours in advance if he even thought he might be late. Each day late would take a given percentage off his payment.

      With someone who is sick, obviously they are not just procrastinating. But they still need to communicate with you, not just go silent for hours or days. In your case, I might only give her small jobs with long deadlines. Require that she keep in communication, even if that means getting another person to contact the office. Have a monetary penalty for being late–that might cause her to think more carefully about which work she does. Turn her down when she requests work that you are pretty sure she can’t do in the time allotted–and let her know why.

      It stinks that she is sick and has to work and then can’t do the work at times. But that has to be balanced against your company’s need to meet client deadlines and keep up a reputation for doing good work and delivering on time.

    2. Em*

      I think you have to have her get all her work in early with enough time after her early deadline that someone could do it if she was unable to complete it. I don’t think you have to try to trick her with a fake deadline. If she is usually reliable but dealing with an unpredictable health situation, then an earlier deadline (if you get work long enough in advance to do this) would be a practical way to have her still be able to work while giving the company a plan B if something comes up.

  138. moomintroll*

    I work at a high school and this week is spirit week. Yesterday the theme was Squad, so the counseling department dressed up as the Incredibles, the English department all wore the same shirt–that sort of thing. When I walked into the office on the way to the library, I saw a white woman wearing a keipo with a black wig on that had two buns and chopsticks. Once school started, I sent out an email to the staff saying that with Halloween coming up, we should be aware of offensive costumes. I included a link to a site about appropriation and Halloween costumes. I also, I’m ashamed to say, included two pictures of people holding up costumes of their culture–one of which was an Asian woman. I know I should have addressed better. At the very least, I shouldn’t have included pictures and I should have talked to the person or the principal in person.

    I did get the chance to speak to the principal, however, when she called me in to her office and I realized, to my horror, that she was wearing the same outfit. She then proceeded to chew me out for writing divisive emails (apparently this is the not first time I’ve done this, but I didn’t ask her which other ones were.) She also explained that the reason they were dressed up like…Asian women…was to help a larger, trans student be part of a group. I didn’t really understand the connection to the Asian costume, but she assured me that rather than being exclusive, they were being inclusive. She also said that people were talking negatively about me, which made me paranoid.

    So yeah, hopefully I haven’t screwed up that relationship or the relationship of my other vice principals. I guess it’s a good thing it’s still the beginning of the year, so they have time to forget. I’m not tenured, so I can be fired without cause.

    1. Alianora*

      That’s upsetting. Just because they’re trying to support a transgender student doesn’t mean those costumes aren’t racially insensitive. I think you were right with your instincts, although the email probably should’ve waited until after talking to a higher-up about it.

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Oh yuck. That sounds awful, I’m sorry you’re in that situation. Is there someone above the principal you could escalate this to? This is gross behavior and definitely needs to be called out. I give you kudos for sending out that email, I think there was nothing wrong with including those pictures.

      Also…”it’s not racist because we’re all doing it together!” might be the worst argument I’ve ever heard.

      1. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Upon second thought, you probably would have been better off talking with someone before sending the email to check what the school’s official policy was, see if a plan to send something like it was already in place, have the tone reviewed, etc – standard mass communication stuff.

        But part of me wonders if, given the principal’s reaction, they wouldn’t have wanted to address any mention of “please don’t be racist/culturally insensitive with your costume choices”? And I definitely think this was something worth addressing. I’m not sure, hindsight is 20-20.

        Either way, I think you’d benefit from talking to someone above your principal, not only in a “I’m concerned we’re promoting a bad environment for our students” way, but also a “I fear retaliation from my superior for pointing out/speaking out against cultural insensitivity”. I feel like getting that documented can only help you, especially if you are concerned you might get fired for it.

    3. Anon a mouse*

      What is your position at the school? Do you supervise the staff? If not, it’s really not your place to send out any sort of e-mail chastising c0-workers and particularly not when you’re singling out one person. I’d suggest backing away from the keyboard since the principal has mentioned emails plural and spend the rest of the year focusing on your job, which will likely improve your relationship with your principal.

  139. Kix*

    Have any of you ever had a direct report react to a 1:1 coaching session by verbally resigning? In my organization, the employee has a time frame to rescind the resignation, but if the deadline passes, I plan to let the resignation stand for a number of reasons. I’d love to hear other managers’/supervisors’ experiences with formal coaching sessions in which the feedback was not well received.

    1. Dragonista*

      No exactly, but I did have one situation where a direct report requested a transfer to a different team. I supported their request, but ultimately there was no role for them to transfer into.

      Some people are not good at receiving feedback.

  140. JustaTech*

    Does anyone have any resources for writing event follow-ups or investigations that are “blameless”? I’m trying to encourage some of the groups I work with to take less of a “this operator messed up” stance in our investigations.

    Not only because it’s really bad for morale for everything to be “well, if you were good a your job this wouldn’t have happened” but because that doesn’t actually figure out the root cause of the problem or prevent it from happening again.

    I think it would be way more effective if I had specific examples of how to do this well from industry.
    Thanks!

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      The passive voice! Something I learned on here, as an example of when the passive voice is the correct and professional choice. Also used in scientific papers–“the temperature was adjusted to 38°” rather than “and then I adjusted the temperature to 38°.”

      Can you hit people with the term “root cause analysis”? Like it’s a scientific problem to describe?

      Personal example–a T intersection in a large city where there were several lanes of roadway but all were one way, and there was no sign indicating this. One day spouse’s boss watched yet another near-accident and called the city to point out that they really needed a sign here, and the crusty old guy on the other end said “Students! They just don’t take the trouble to learn the city!”

    2. Not Really a Waitress*

      I went to a fabulous root cause analysis class several years ago. It was called Cause Mapping . we used it in Safety investigations. But you also might use the Five Why methodology. Just keep asking why. I also use the Mager and Pipe troubleshooting model. I actually keep a laminated copy at my desk.

      1. Close Bracket*

        Yes, I was about to suggest route cause analysis. In the absence of complete incompetence, focus on the process, not the person. Remember that you want to fix the problem, not the blame.

        Btw, root cause analysis, when really in depth, can go all the way up to lack of managerial support for developing processes.

    3. Gumby*

      You need the retrospective prime directive!

      Regardless of what we discover, we understand and truly believe that everyone did the best job they could, given what they knew at the time, their skills and abilities, the resources available, and the situation at hand. — Norm Kerth

    4. Dragonista*

      Have you read anything about Human Factors? It’s a key component in air traffic accident investigations, and is being used in other industries too.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Oh dear, it can be so many things. If you’re a reader of AAM you’ll read about a lot of toxic workplaces.
      Generally, some signs:
      Lots of drama LOTS!
      Lots of infighting and personal battles
      Bullying and backbiting
      Bad attitudes
      Dysfunction reigns (poor communication, objectives, chaos)
      High turnover
      Signs of drug or substance abuse
      Tolerance or encouragement of abuses
      Long hours + Low pay
      Sketchy behaviors from management (money or regulations)
      Tyrannical boss or management
      Inflexibility
      Cash flow problems

    2. Bea*

      It usually starts with organizational and executive issues. Then it dissolves into gossiping and back biting, boundaries being nonexistent. Disproportionate amounts of power to individuals who don’t have the title or background to deserve it. Unfair, unethical and immoral behaviors.

  142. Book Badger*

    Got turned down from a job I really wanted. :/ But I understand it, and they’re willing to give me feedback, so that’s good. I also had to turn down a second interview for a company on account of it being over 1,000 miles away from me: normally not a problem, except they emailed me this on Wednesday for a proposed Monday interview, and I can’t afford tickets that expensive.

    Back to the drawing board!

  143. August*

    Any tips on getting a tech job in an underdeveloped city? A friend of mine is a recent graduate looking for a job in software development, but her hometown (where she currently lives) is one of America’s poorest cities. Any hope for her, or is the only route to move to a city like Seattle or Pittsburgh?

    1. Four lights*

      It’s a bit of a crapshoot in smaller cities–there may be one or two companies and they may not be hiring. I would recommend doing research on local companies to see if there are any tech options. She would also talk to local recruiters to see what they know.

      With software development remote work is definitely an option. She could get a job with a company across the country.

      And if she does end up looking at other cities, might I recommend Rochester, NY :)

    2. Reba*

      It might just be less obvious, or needing to think creatively — for example, my relative lives in an economically-depressed city in an economically-depressed region, and works writing software for a medical device company. Rather than a few, big household-name tech companies, there might be many small companies with diverse purposes that need in house devs. Networking with other developers to learn about potential opportunities is key. Another thing I’m seeing among peers right now is widely divergent salaries in different regions (and the emotions that come with learning what other people are being offered). So the risks and costs of moving should be weighed carefully.

    3. Qwerty*

      Check for startups? They tend to be everywhere, but sometimes underdeveloped areas can produce a cluster of them because its a cheap area to live. Because startups require wearing many hats, she’d get a lot of experience faster. On the downside, startups do tend to have sexist and work-hard-play-hard environments.

      The advantage to being a software developer is there are jobs for it almost everywhere, because almost every industry has its own set of software tools. She might need to increase her radius for the city a bit, but odds are good for finding openings on standard job sites. It might take a bit longer given the time of year, since most recent grad positions tend to fill up by now, but smaller companies don’t follow the same yearly schedule as big corporations.

      Does the city have a college? Maybe reach out to that college’s career center for suggestions? Also, the university in my town hires a lot of software people, but they only post through their own job portal instead of on general sites.

    4. disney+coffee*

      Unfortunately, software’s one of those careers where it’s hard to find a job without a college strong in tech nearby. In my experience, it’s also a job where a lot of companies recruit directly from certain schools. I will say that healthcare is an industry that’s looking for people strong in software, as well as banking, so it might be worth looking at those industries.

      However, if she does have to move, I’ve lived in Pittsburgh and it’s a wonderful city with a low cost of living. As Four lights mentioned, Rochester is a great place for software as well (many companies there are hiring like crazy), and I also lived there and it too has a super-low cost of living.

  144. RoadsLady*

    My employer hasn’t the slightest idea of what information we need to access our FSA. The FSA company does not know the information my employer needs. There is one big giant disconnect. I’m starting to regret even signing up for this as I have no means of reimbursement because no one knows anything. Sigh. Did I just throw pre-tax money away?

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      No you didn’t throw it away. Be relentless until they figure it out. Escalate it within your benefits department. Don’t let them blow this off. Seriously pursue them both like they owe you money… because they do!

      1. EmmaBird*

        Yeah, the other thing is that I believe FSAs are time-limited (at last I have to use mine within the calendar year). Which is all the more reason to push hard and not give up on this.

          1. valentine*

            If there’s a grace period, you’ll be able to file claims into next year, but only for service dates occurring this year.

    2. EmmaBird*

      Maybe a dumb question but are you sure you even have one? I’ve had an FSA in the past and when my employer couldn’t answer the question the company managing the FSA always could (at least here I am expected to reach out to the company myself).

      I might push harder with the FSA company and skip over your employer if they truly seem clueless and you have no one else to ask in your company. In my experience, it’s as simple as using a debit card loaded with your funds OR submitting a bill to the FSA company for reimbursement (your healthcare providers should be familiar with what paperwork is needed– mine always have). If they have a website you might want to try creating an account on the website by yourself– I had to do that– and pretty much everything you need to know will likely be on the website (your balance, how to submit things, what you can get reimbursed for)

      3. The New Wanderer*

        That was my experience as well. The initial setup was through my company’s portal, which opened the FSA management company’s website specific to my company. The rest of the effort (cashing out) was submitting a form I got directly off the FSA company’s website to the FSA company, which cut me a check.

        This was at a really big company and it was also hard to find out info and navigate the various websites – I missed one year’s enrollment because it wasn’t advertised and I didn’t realize there was a strict time limit to sign up (I knew about the use it or lose it deadlines though). It’s worth it though.

    3. Four lights*

      You can also ask your coworkers, to see if they are having the same problem and maybe you can go to HR together.

  145. fromscratch*

    I recently was referred by 2 former coworkers for a position at the company they’re now at – their HR team reached out to me and asked me to apply. Went through four 60-90 minute interviews for the same position in one week. Got great feedback during each interview. Was told I’d have an answer in a day or 2.
    Two weeks later after complete silence from everyone involved I got a form rejection letter, no other responses or info. So very frustrated.

    1. Monty & Millie's Mom*

      I’m sorry! That’s so frustrating! Best of luck to you if you’re looking. Don’t give up!

  146. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

    I have a couple of random questions today that are totally unrelated to each other.

    1. Mexican work/gender/hierarchy culture.
    I was just corresponding with someone I haven’t met (he’s one of our vendors). In email he refers to me as Ms. Firstname (I’ve found this to be normal in written communication with people from Mexico both vendors and with employees of my company) but I just noticed that this person referred to my male counterpart as Mr Lastname. Normal?

    2. If a person is fired from Company A or left as rehire ineligible and they go to work for Company B, what happens to that employee if Company A buys Company B? Can Company A fire them? Would that leave them open to a lawsuit if employee could demonstrate they were a good employee at Company B? I really don’t have any specific reason for asking this, the question just popped in my head one day.

    So help me out with this randomness or share some of your own random questions!

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I should have clarified in my first question. I’m referring to colleagues and to vendors in Mexico, not people I work with who happen to have Mexican heritage.

      1. Lucille2*

        For #1, I would shrug it off. I have worked with teams in various different countries, and I have had a combination of emails addressing my last name as my first, or Ms. first name, or calling me Mr. Lucille. I’ve also made the mistake of mis-assigning gender pronouns for someone who’s name is foreign to me. Assume that English is not the sender’s primary language and give them a pass. I doubt it’s intentional.

    2. Seriously?*

      Well for #2, I am pretty sure that they could be fired (in the US). Since most employment is “at will” you can be fired for anything not explicitly illegal. They would only be open to a lawsuit if the employee was fired for something like gender or race or something else that is protected by law (or if the employee were arguing that those were the reasons). If they have an actual contract it might be different.

    3. Mephyle*

      For #1, what Lucille2 said: ascribe it to English not being their first language, and possibly their application of Mexican customs perhaps mixed with imperfect notions of what they think are English-speaking customs.

  147. Vancouver Reader*

    I want to thank Alison and all the readers here. Thanks to you, I was able to have a conversation with my BEC co-worker without strangling her. I kept reasonably calm and asked her to help me figure out how to resolve an issue I had with her work.

    Also, thanks to Alison’s great advice, I applied and accepted a new position! I kept the interview conversational, and asked those questions that were suggested, that make interviewers go, wow, those are really good questions!

  148. teapotcleaner*

    I wrote about a staff member on my performance review. I praised the Doctor for giving my coworkers and department a good speech on ways we could impact others and I wrote about how I have tried to do so. My bosses talked to the doctor and I had my picture taken for the website and printouts of the month. I have always been low-key at work but this is definitely going to put me put there. There is nothing bad about this. I am just an introvert. I wasn’t ready that day and my hair wasn’t the best. It was a surprise type of thing.

    How do you guys manage having pictures of yourselves or videos online for your jobs or on print?

    1. Langerhan*

      I got surprise-photographed a few years ago. I coped with it by framing it as something my job required of me, and moved on. Remember: nobody’s going to be thinking about it as much as you are. If someone brings it up, you can just say, “yup, that was me! Now, about that new teapot detergent you wanted…”

      1. teapotcleaner*

        Thanks I’m going to try that. It’s going to become an article in our monthly edition of work related stuff and healthcare stuff going on. I hope it doesn’t catch that much attention. I definitely won’t mention it to anyone. I’ll let them find out for themselves. I’m sure my bosses meant well, and this is good publicity for our department, but this surprise photographing+ my name being released is going to require some getting used to. It’s all going to sink in next month when I see it. Thank u so much for relating.

        1. Langerhan*

          I can’t say for 100% definite, but I would be very surprised if it catches much attention at all, if any. Unless you put it out there, which it sounds like you’re not planning on, people are just going to read it and move on.

          If you’re worried about the fact it’s a bad photo, people who know you will know it’s a bad photo, and people who don’t aren’t people you have to worry about.

  149. atexit8*

    Making sure to get paid if working on 1099 contract.

    I have worked three times in the past year as an independent contractor where I receive a 1099.

    This last time, I was getting paid weekly.
    They let me go without notice, and now they tell me that I won’t get paid for that last week until the last week of October or first week of November.
    They are “waiting for a check”.
    I knew they had some cash flow issues after I had started, but I did not think that I would be this bad.

    Since most people are not privy to the financial details, so my insisting on getting paid weekly was one of the way I tried to make sure I got paid.

    Someone suggested that I write in the contract that if I am terminated that I be paid immediately in full,
    but that is assuming the company is going to be honest and tell you that you are terminated.
    It wouldn’t surprise me if a company waits until the weekend to tell you not to come in on Friday.

    I am tempted to have them pay me every day that I work. Rather drastic, but I don’t want to be out one week of pay.

    Any thoughts?

    Is there anything I could have done differently?

    1. miyeritari*

      Design a contract which indicates when they will pay you, whatever that duration is (weekly or whatever). Then, if they don’t pay you, take them to small claims court.

      Wage laws vary from state to state (or country, if you’re outside of the US).

    2. LilySparrow*

      Depending on what type of work you do, there are some different payment structures you could consider:

      -A retainer, so you are always working against a payment balance.

      -A deposit, with installment payments tied to deliverables (they don’t get the deliverables, or rights to it, until the payment is made.)

      -A kill fee, so that if the project is scrapped or your contract is terminated prematurely, there’s a bonus payment due.

      But as to enforcement? You either have to structure it so you get paid before they get the work, or be willing to go to court. If they’re going to ignore their legal obligations, you can’t prevent that.

  150. Overeducated*

    The entire world seems to be on fire and my workplace is no different. I’m not supposed to know but another coworker is leaving for a new job (if you’re keeping count, that’s the second in two weeks and the sixth in six months).

    I think this is the actual tipping point at which we can’t get the absolute minimum mission critical work done with the staff we have left. And even more alarmingly, the plan has been to hire 2 levels of management and undergo a formal transition planning process before doing any more staff level hiring or replacement. If that plan doesn’t change now, work is going to be awful and we will be set up to fail for probably another year or two before anything improves.

    We’re already a demoralized ghost town. I don’t want to go back to job searching yet but I’m afraid of being the last rat on a sinking ship. Has anyone else been through this? What did you do?

    1. Valenonymous*

      I don’t have a solution, but I came here today hoping to post a similar question. Come January, I am in serious danger of being THE ONLY PERSON LEFT on what was at one point a staff of five. One coworker has now claimed she won’t abandon me to my own devices, but it will likely be just the two of us at minimum, doing work neither of us want to or are qualified to do, simply to keep the place from going under. I’m not in a position to leave myself, for a variety of reasons.

      I’m not looking forward to it, and I sympathize.

    2. atexit8*

      I haven’t been similar situation.

      My thoughts:
      The key is to not try to “save” the place.
      Do your job 8 hours of it.
      Realize that there is no way you can make up the work of the other people who have let.
      It’s management’s problem. You are not being paid at the pay scale to worry about it.

      1. Overeducated*

        Thanks. I need to keep that in mind. I’m just worried about what I’ll be asked to take over and what that will push out from my current duties.

        1. Valenonymous*

          That’s what worries me, too. My area of focus is what’s considered around here the “non essential” stuff, and when I started, I had hoped we would hire MORE people, not less, and that I would gradually get to do MORE of what I enjoyed. Now I’m looking at being able to do essentially none of what I enjoy, and it’s rough.

  151. Lalaith*

    A story, related to my previous post. New Boss had told me that he was going to call at a certain time (so I was expecting to get an offer), so I was sitting at my desk in my home office waiting for the call. I heard a weird rustling sound that I thought was coming from outside the window. I went over to the window and looked out, didn’t see anything, and kept hearing the rustling noise to my right… looked over at my desk and saw THE MOST GINORMOUS SPIDER crawling across a plastic bag. I had just enough time to jump back and yell something incoherent when my phone rang >_< So here I am, trying to have an important phone call, and also trying to find a shoe to squish the spider with. And by the time I got back with the shoe, the spider was nowhere to be found! *wah* I haven't sat down at my desk since.

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      So ahhh…how’d the phone call go?

      HAHAHA… this sounds like the time when I worked on a stock trading line. I’m talking to a client and a roach runs across my desk. I had to mute the call.. but still pay attention all while slamming the thing with a glass ice tea bottle. That little bugger was quick and after all of that I had to explain to my coworkers that I hadn’t lost my mind!

      1. Lalaith*

        Haha! Ugh, those bugs! The phone call still went well… thankfully I’d built up enough rapport with the guy that when he asked how I was, I told him about the spider ;) And then he offered me a job, so yay!

  152. AJ*

    I just found out that I was offered my dream job!! I’m getting converted from my contract position to a full time role that is a huge step up, and I get to continue working on a product that I absolutely love, with a great team at an awesome company (that is notoriously difficult to get hired at). I’m seriously so excited, I have to keep reading the offer email to make sure its not just a dream. And I’m really looking forward to actually get paid a livable wage with actual benefits! (something contractors definitely do not get). It was a really long road to get to this point, and I worked so hard for 4 long years of contracting here, so I feel like I appreciate this offer so much more than I otherwise would. yay!! :D

  153. AnonyMouse*

    I have an interview Monday! For the first time since the awful experience I had this spring (the one where I tried to negotiate and the hiring manager did a complete 180 in her attitude toward me. Pretty much did everything short of withdrawing the offer) I’m actually really excited about this one! It’s a student facing role in a community college. My only worry is that most of my experience has been at four-year institutions, and I’m not sure if that will be concerning. Any advice on preparing for the interview (i.e. questions I’m more likely to be asked at a CC, good questions to ask at the end, etc)?

  154. OhGee*

    I GOT THE JOB! I’ve been in the interview process for a new-to-the-org role at a university since mid-August and I’ll be starting in mid-October. Possibly the fastest university hiring process of all time. I got a great impression from everybody I met with throughout the process, it’s a significant raise, I’ll have an employee for the first time, and my soon-to-be boss told me the decision was unanimous. I nearly cried. It’s going to be a huge change – I’m moving from a small dysfunctional nonprofit, where I both grew immensely because I was able to pursue things I was excited about AND was under-and-over-managed simultaneously to a big department (more than 10x the size of my current organization) with a manager who seems to be a very good fit for me. I’m going to be working much, much harder…and I’m excited about that, because I’ve been bored half to death and very depressed as a result. I really thought I’d be stuck at my current workplace forever. Good luck to everybody out there who is interviewing!

  155. Higher Ed Anonymous*

    How do you help support a colleague with unrealistic expectations?

    I work with a colleague who is also a friend, and this colleague is deeply, deeply unhappy with our workplace, but for various reasons isn’t looking to find another job. Instead, what she wants is a reduced workload- we work in higher ed and teach five classes a semester, and she wants it reduced to three- and to teach only online classes. The administration is never going to cut the classes back to three, and while they do let her teach online courses, they limit it so that no one professor is teaching more than two because there’s not a huge demand for them at our particular institution and they want to be equitable. She just made another request to have only three classes, all online, for next semester, got turned down, and is so upset that she ranted to me on the phone about it for hours. I hate seeing her upset, but on the other hand, I think her expectations are wildly out of alignment with the institution and she’s been here for long enough (a decade) that she should be able to realize it’s not going to happen. Worse, she keeps asking me why I don’t join her in fighting for reduced workloads and online classes, when the truth is that I hate teaching online and don’t see the point in fighting a battle that’s only going to be lost. How do I be both a supportive friend and a realistic colleague?

    1. AnonyMouse*

      I hate to say it like this… but I feel like higher ed is full of people who have unrealistic expectations like this. I have a former coworker who was recently hired into a non-remote position, who I’m pretty sure is convinced that they will eventually be able to work remotely in said position. I don’t know what it is about our field that attracts these types.

      Has this person been campaigning for a reduced workload the whole time they’ve been there? I feel like if you can find a polite way to say “you’ve asked for a reduced workload for the past [X number of] years. I don’t think that’s something the department is going to be able to accommodate for the foreseeable future. Maybe you should start looking at other institutions that would be able to provide you with this.” I also feel like it’s not unreasonable for you to be honest when she asks why you aren’t joining her fight. I feel like a short, Alison-esque response is sufficient “I’m really happy with my workload right now” or “Personally, I’m not a fan of teaching online classes. I’m okay with just two this semester” should be enough to put a stop to that. I think at this point, being supportive is pointing out that she’s not going to get what she wants where she is.

      1. Higher Ed Anonymous*

        Yes, she’s been asking for a reduced workload the whole time I’ve been there (this is my third year) and apparently longer than that as well. The administration has made it clear that that is Not Happening. At one point there was one department teaching four classes because each class had a short lab so was technically worth more credits, but that’s stopped now because the labs got scheduled at extremely weird times (like, say, 3:23-3:53) and were interfering with other classes students wanted to take and with them taking public transit. My field, which is also my colleague’s, does not have labs, so wouldn’t even qualify for that solution.

        Thanks for your advice. She does know that I don’t like teaching online, but wants to keep pushing for it because she assumes she won’t get traction if she’s fighting by herself. I just don’t think she’ll get traction anyway. The response you gave sounds like a good idea.

    2. Seriously?*

      The best thing you can do is not let her rant at you. You aren’t going to change her viewpoint but you can protect yourself from her negativity. If she starts ranting, try to change the subject. If she won’t switch subjects, suddenly remember something you need to go do right now and hang up. You can also try being a non-sympathetic listener and suggest things like applying to schools that offer more online classes, but that can take a lot of effort. Or you can be honest with her and tell her that you think her expectations are not realistic.

      1. Higher Ed Anonymous*

        Good point. I was happy here my first year and extremely depressed last year, which I think now is because I listened to her so much (under the impression that someone who had been here so much longer than me would know “how it really is”). I suppose there’s still a chance I’ll miss out on important news or something if I don’t listen to her rants, but it’s so exhausting. And takes up time that I could be doing other things!

        1. Aphrodite*

          If I were in your position–and I work in higher ed but as a staff member, not faculty–I would finally be blunt with her. I’d tell her first that I was no longer willing to listen to her rants, that she could do something about her unhappiness or not but I wouldn’t be part of it any more. Second, she already knows administration is not going to cut her classes or give her any more online classes and so what is she going to do about it. Third, I’d probably drop her except for professional courtesies because she is now a very negative influence in your life–and who needs that.

          Basically, just let her know without any apologies or fudging that it is what it is and that she now has to handle it (or not) on her own. But you don’t want to hear anything about it now or in the future.

    3. Ender*

      You could point out to her that if she goes part-time like she wants she not only would lose a lot of money but also entitlement to various benefits. Tell her you don’t want to lose those things for yourself which is why you’re not getting involved.

      If she says she just wants to do part time hours but still get a full time wage, act really confused and as if you thought all along she was trying to go part time. Ask her why she thinks they will pay her a full wage for part of the work.

      1. Higher Ed Anonymous*

        Ha, I do like this solution! I’ve done similar things in the past, like when a colleague or a student sends me an e-mail with an unreasonable request and I’ll say, “Oh, I think there must be a typo here! I could never get this paperwork done by three hours from now/I could never give you an extension on your paper for three weeks! Can you resend the e-mail with the right information?” This might be the best tactic to handle her. Thanks.

    4. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

      My suggestion is to be a realistic friend and a supportive colleague! :D

      Seriously, I think you can be like, “Hey, I understand that you’d really like that, but you know as well as I do it’s never going to happen. There’s not much demand for online classes and the policy limiting instructors to two isn’t going to change. You’re going to lose this battle. Given that, what are you going to do? You think you can stay here?”

      And you don’t have to stay on the phone for hours. That’s not being a supportive friend, that’s being an emotional sherpa.

      1. Higher Ed Anonymous*

        See, she thinks it’s going to happen if enough people just join with her. That’s one thing that’s made it particularly exhausting, to have her saying over and over, “But don’t you WANT to only teach three classes? Why aren’t you joining me with this?” She’s tried to get a couple of other doomed campaigns going, too, like clinging to certain classes that the state has decided shouldn’t be offered anymore, and blaming colleagues who wouldn’t side with her more than the state.

        I’ll try your wording and see if it works, though.

    5. Nacho*

      I had a similar situation at my job. Not quite the same, but a group of people were unhappy with, and complained quite loudly about, aspects of our job that simply will never change no matter how loudly we complain about them. Eventually I got fed up with it and just told them that I was trying to work, and their complaining was getting annoying and I didn’t really want to hear it. To their credit, they stopped talking about it nearly as much when I was around, and I’ve been much happier.

    6. Anon a mouse*

      Are you tenured? If not, no one, especially a friend, should be encouraging you to harangue the administration/chancellor/board of regents. The role of tenured faculty is to protect nontenured colleagues, not push them toward career suicide by being labeled a complainer.
      I think you’re being realistic about the course load, I haven’t seen any schools reducing faculty loads. As for the online issue, does she have health issues? My department will allow full online only for faculty with medical documentation–we do have enough demand for online classes to allow this. You might direct her to figuring out a way she can go all online, and definitely don’t join her doomed crusade for reduced classes.

  156. Thinking Out Loud*

    I am a rice sculpture engineer. I just got my CPR certification. I don’t think this will ever be necessary or relevant for my work. Should I put it on my resume with my professional certifications anyway?

    1. KR*

      Are you ever on a job site or possibly working with hazardous tools or materials? That could make it relevant. It can’t hurt to put it on there but I wouldn’t devote as much space to it as other things, just a quick note “current CPR certification”.

  157. Never*

    Bad sign: when the CEO builds a workload model based on everyone having “enough” work to do – but can’t tell you what “enough” means

  158. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

    Today has been a bad day at work – and I wasn’t even AT work today (teleworking because I’m unwell and don’t want to share my germs – don’t get me started on the “taking a sick day” vs “working from home” culture).
    Voluntary staff turnover has reached new highs. And on top of everything else, hubby has screwed up at work and is now worrying that he’ll receive a formal warning on Monday. (He was… less than complimentary about his boss, the same boss who has sided with a bullying co-worker against hubby, so he’s likely to get written up for unprofessionalism, because gods forbid the fact that the bullying behaviour was independently witnessed by HIS BOSS would mean hubby gets any support from HIS BOSS)
    So, I made use of the new company associated health/mental health counselling service. Which basically boiled down to: get better from my heavy cold(!) and stop trying to change things at work/improve my situation. This is after me explaining that I’ve been monitoring my stress and depression levels since July and in 80 days (approx – can’t remember exactly when I installed the mood tracker app), I’ve had fewer than 20 good days. Considering this period included both my birthday, hubby’s birthday, and two weekends away, these aren’t great statistics.

    I’m tired. I’m so very tired.

    1. Jayess*

      I was there last year around this time. I don’t have any words of wisdom, and I had a lot more bad days before I started to see some good days. I didn’t bother trying to take advantage of the company FSEAP, but I can only imagine how discouraged I would have been if I had tried and gotten that response.

      In one respect they’re not wrong, though… you might have a bit more energy to combat your fatigue/make a plan when the cold is over. I know I was down and stressed regardless of health, but it was definitely more work to just function when I got the flu at the same time.

      You’re going to find something that helps. It will get better. I don’t know when, but somewhere down the line you’ll have a really good day, and the power to plan for and achieve another really good day. And it’ll pick up steam.

      Warm wishes. I really want things to pick up for you. Keep posting; I’ll keep watching for you.

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        Thank you so much for this – this is the support I shouldve gotten from the EAP!
        Rational thinking me knows that getting over the cold is step 1. So I’m taking some self-care time this weekend, together with hubby. If I can just have a good nights’ sleep, things have to seem better in the morning.

  159. Elleanor*

    How long should he spend looking for a job in his field before he should look for something temporary?

    I’m not sure this is the right place for this. My boyfriend finished an intensive university program to upgrade his technical diploma to an Environmental Science degree in August. It was in a different part of the country and we did long distance for a year. I am very happy to have him home, but he has not had any luck finding a job so far. There is a trickle of jobs in his field, maybe one or two a week pop up. So he applies for them, does the dishes every day, and that’s about it. I help him with his resume and cover letters and I’ve always been pretty good at that, but I don’t have a scientific background, so I’m not sure why he hasn’t gotten a single call back so far.

    I got a great new job over the summer, but along with my first bigger paycheque came him running out of savings. I paid the last chunk of his tuition and supplemented him for the last few months of his program, and now i’m paying all the rent, bills, and feeding us both, plus any entertainment costs. I don’t want to be resentful, but I think from his perspective he’s only been looking for a month, but from mine, I’ve been supporting him for much longer and am unable to benefit (save money for a house, dog, future) from a higher paycheque. I’m stressed out. He asks if I’m excited to go to to work every damn morning (I NEVER AM), and I’m not just getting resentful, I’m scared. I’m in my first management role, and although I have no reason to believe I’ll lose my job in the near future, it really freaks me out that we have no safety net if I did.

    A lot of that is probably irrelevant, I’m sorry. My question is just, what is a reasonable amount of time for him to look full time before he should get something temporary? It’s no fun going back to a service industry, but I’m losing attraction to the guy who plays computer games on my couch all day. What is a reasonable line in the sand here?

    1. Seriously?*

      Tell him that you need him to find something temporary now, even part time. He can get a job at retail or a restaurant. He can drive for Uber. But it sounds like you need him to take some of the financial burden off of you. Talk about it now before you explode.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t know what the demand is for Environmental Science. But I think in general it has been taking people in ‘professional’ careers about 3-6 months to find a good job, whether they are employed or not employed.
      My last job search in communications took me a good 2 months of looking and 3 months more intense searching and interviewing. I was employed and so was more picky to find a good fit.

      If you’re hurting for money though, there is no set time. You have to pay the bills and do what you gotta do. Even if it’s something part-time or temping to contribute to the household expenses. And here’s a thing. QUIT SUPPORTING HIM. I get helping so he could finish school, but school is over! Don’t buy much food to keep in the house, don’t pay his bills, don’t pay for his entertainment. When he can’t eat or do things, tell him you have no money to spare.

    3. Emi.*

      You’re living together, correct? If he’s not working and you share a household he should be doing more than the dishes! I suspect that you’d be feeling a lot less frustrated if he were doing the full-up househusband thing.

      To answer the question you actually asked, though, he’s already hit the point where it’s financially stressful for him not to have an income, so he should look for something temporary while he keeps looking for a job in his field. (He doesn’t even have to list it on his resume if it would hurt him with the scientific jobs.)

      1. Elleanor*

        You’re very right on point one. I had to specifically request that “the dishes” include wiping the counters and sweeping the floors and, you know, actually putting them away last week. To his credit, he has been doing that since. He does pick up a few other things, but not with any consistency (like maybe look at how dirty the toilet is and make a logical leap!). Wow. I don’t think i realized how frustrated i’m getting until i started writing the above comment/question.

        It doesn’t help that I’m really afraid I’m failing in my new job. I have not reached any kind of comfort level and I run towards anxious at the best of times. In theory I can support us indefinitely, but I worry it will tank us emotionally. I’m already getting less nice. Less excited to see him because he’s just never not home when I am. I guess we need to have a talk. Thanks for replying, to you and the other commenters, I needed this.

        1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

          Your boyfriend needs a wake-up call/kick in the @ss as far as pulling his weight is concerned. As in, he isn’t. This talk NEEDS to happen, for both your sakes. But it needs to be as direct as AAM would have you be to any one of your direct reports who isn’t quite performing as expected.

          Before my hubby and I were even engaged, but living together in my little one bed apartment, it was my salary that paid for everything while he was trying to make a go of it as an entrepreneur (he financed it himself with his savings). He was trying to get himself established as a sole trader from his “home office” (read: a corner of my living room!), but as soon as his savings dried up it became obvious his venture had failed, he threw himself into job hunting WHILE AT THE SAME TIME ensuring that I came home to a clean apartment, clean clothes, and whatever measly residual income from the venture he got came to me to pay for the food.
          (Full disclosure – I cooked; that was because, among his stellar househusband skills, cooking is not one of them! Lord knows I love him, but putting pizza in the oven is about his limit!)
          Big difference, it was his own sense of guilt and responsibility that motivated him to do this. He would keep a little of his pocket money for himself, which would be spent alternately on a bottle of beer for himself one week, and flowers (or similar token) for me the next to show he appreciated that I was the one keeping the roof over our heads and/or cheer me up when I had a frazzled day at work.

          Does your boyfriend know AND appreciate what you are doing for him? Have you been clear that you need his support when you feel you are failing at work (if you do need his support – and btw, I wouldn’t assume you are failing just because you haven’t reached your comfort level yet. Your work comfort level could well be compromised because your home comfort level has wobbled. I have no proof, but I have no reason to believe you’re doing anything other than your own best. :-))

          1. Elleanor*

            Thank you for this. I really appreciate it and might have teared up slightly. I know he loves me but actions friends. Actions matter.

    4. Ender*

      I would say 2 weeks personally. I have always been a fan of getting a non-career job to keep the bills paid while searching for a career type job. Before I had kids I was never totally unemployed for longer than 2 weeks, even though it took me over 7 months to find career type jobs on occasion.

    5. Ender*

      Also, tell him if he hasn’t found a job by the next rent day hell be doing the rest of his job searching remotely.

    6. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I’m on team ‘get a filler job now’. Realistically it’s not going to interfere with the 1-2 resumes he’s filling out a week, nor would it likely interfere with any interviews that come along. He needs to be self supporting. That means a full time job that he can live off of.

      I say this as someone who was the sole breadwinner between my and my husband for a short time. Here’s the really big differences. He was jobless because of my work relocation, he was in school re-certifying in his profession in our new area full time, then he was working full time equivalent jobs (at one point he had 2 or 3 pt) while he was applying to full time positions in his field. And… it was known that the average time to get hired in his position (full time professional firefighter) is 3 years.

      1. Elleanor*

        Thank you for your perspective! I would be fine with him working even part time and taking on a few fixed costs. I need to see that he is trying and not falling into a new normal.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Yep. I’ve been the sole wage-earner in my household for a few years, and currently my husband has been. We’re in a position where I don’t have to work just to make our ends meet, but you can bet if I did, I’d be taking any filler job I could while job-searching for a career-track job. As it is I do 90% of the household chores and child-related things and spend several hours every day on job-hunting and skill development.

        I also only have a few jobs in my field show up every month, so I get feeling like “okay, I applied for these and now I’m done til next month!” but not if there’s a paycheck-to-paycheck thing happening.

        Sorry, it all sounds very stressful to be in a new challenging role and feeling like your money is just disappearing. Hopefully if you lay it out for him, he’ll get it.

    7. Bex*

      The time to get a filler job was before he asked you to pay for his tuition! Working 20-30 hrs a week still gives him plenty of time to job search. If he has time to play video games then he has time to work.

      He could also look for a post-grad internship. Or spend time networking with people in the field to try to find unposted opportunities. Or look for adjacent fields where he can use his degree.

    8. Red Reader*

      With the caveat that I’m biased because I divorced a variant of this guy (twice – don’t be me!), he needs to get his tail feathers out and into an income-earning position immediately, and do a damn professional quality job of keeping the house clean until that happens. The longer he’s unemployed, the less employable he looks, and it’s absolutely unacceptable that you should be footing all the bills AND doing the lion’s share of the household labor. During the seven years my ex and I were together, he held a job for about 15 months. (IN EFFING SEATTLE, one of the highest COL areas in the country, no less.) Seriously, don’t. be. that. me.

    9. the consensus*

      We all agree, the time to draw the line in the sand is right now. As in, if you haven’t done it already, go offline and have the conversation immediately. He’s ready.

  160. Amber Rose*

    I just had a disgusting comedy of errors involving blood loss and an over-enthusiastic faucet that left me soaking wet and the bathroom looking like a murder scene. While someone else was in the bathroom.

    I hate being gross around people I’m close to. I’m mortified that this happened near a coworker. :(

    1. Overeducated*

      Yeah, it’s a level of vulnerability and physicality that is tough to expose in the workplace. Are you ok?

  161. Nerdy Library Clerk*

    I can’t decide whether I’m being unreasonable or entirely reasonable. A distant coworker – both of our departments are under the same supervisor and we are sometimes working in the same space, but we are in different departments – made a joke(?) that destroyed what patience I had for them. The have a strange attitude toward work anyway, as though their job isn’t important enough to do well and tend to blow off corrections or other concerns about their work (at least ones that come from colleagues).

    A little while I ago I was using a computer in the staff break room and they walked by and said something along the lines of “I see you looking at porn!” and sort of doubled down on the joke when I responded with confusion. At least I think they were joking. I’m not entirely sure because we don’t have enough of a relationship for them to be making that sort of joke with/at me in the first place. And I don’t feel like it’s a work appropriate joke to begin with.

    While I think I’m remaining professional with them, I’m find I’m much more irritated by their mistakes and their general attitude since that incident. Am I overreacting? Should I just let it go?

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I’m not sure if there’s more to this, but based on what your wrote, I guess I’m not seeing anything so terrible here. I’d let it go.

      Was it funny… no, not really
      Was it inappropriate… It would not cross my PG 13 standard
      Was it malicious… Doesn’t really seem to be

      It really seems like you don’t like this person to begin with and there’s not much to be gained by hanging on to it except to like them less and for it to fuel more negativity. I’d practice the art of the audible eyeroll and employ with this person when needed and then let it go.

      1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

        I think what bothers me about it – besides that, generally speaking, a person should not be looking at porn at work – is that I work in a public library with a computer lab. Patrons using our computers or wi-fi have to agree not to look at porn as part of the log-on process. At least once a week, some patron will decide to look at porn anyway and be suspended from the library. That gives the “joke” more of a hostile edge than it might in other workplaces.

        We also don’t have an existing relationship. It wasn’t joking around with a work friend, it was quite possibly the only thing she’d said to me that week.

        And I actually felt neutral to her until that incident. Now, you’re right, I don’t like her and have been far more aware of her failings since. I think because her joke felt like a threat. She joking accused someone she barely knows of doing something that may well be a firing offense.

        But you’re right, it probably wasn’t intended that way. I just really don’t find being accused of wrongdoing to be funny, especially in the workplace. I’ll try to remember that not everyone feels that way and put it out of my mind.

    2. Technical_Kitty*

      It would absolutely piss me off, unprofessional behaviour from distant co-workers is pretty annoying. And anyone “joking” with me about things like that better be ready for the take down, because I do not play with my work reputation – female in a highly technical position, working in mining I have enough BS to deal with.

      There isn’t much to do besides keep this in mind when dealing with them though. You can make it clear you are not buddies the next time they interact with you and that this sort of thing isn’t acceptable at work, but that’s about it.

    3. Anon-mama*

      Definitely not appropriate! I’m a library tech, and I’d be fuming. I also get the increased irritation. I personally think stuff like this get nipped in the bud. I’m not sure the best way to approach it–do you address it directly (“You know, that joke you made a little while ago was not funny and not appreciated”? Do you bring it to the attention of a mutual supervisor as a standalone incident or part of a larger conversation about it being difficult to work with them, a route maybe only possible if their mistakes affect your work? Anyone else have ideas?

    4. LilySparrow*

      You get to decide for yourself whether or not you like someone. There is no objective universal “line” where you’re obligated to like people unless they cross it, and you’re being unreasonable if they don’t.

      You just have to act professional and courteous toward them. And for your own health, it’s probably better if you can slough things off and not walk around actively irritated.

      But the co-worker sounds annoying and kind of obnoxious. You don’t have to pretend otherwise, as long as you don’t display open contempt.

  162. Dzhymm*

    So my wife and I own a small business. Recently we hired a new kid, a high-school student, to work in the place part-time. He has potential, but he requires a lot of hand-holding and supervision (ours is the kind of place where it takes months of training to be useful and close to a year to build teapots on your own). Trouble is, we’ve had a number of departures of our regular staff. One of them, who had been the kid’s mentor, quit. The other two have been dealing with various illnesses lately. That leaves me and the wife (mostly the wife, since I have another job) dealing with both the workload *and* supervising the kid. As I said, the kid has potential but right now he’s a drag on our productivity at a time where we have not one ounce of energy to spare. I find that I’m contemplating letting him go, but do any of you have any other creative suggestions for dealing with this situation?

    1. Four lights*

      Maybe you could change up the work he’s doing, so that he’s only doing tasks he knows. Or teach him just one task to do.

      1. Dzhymm*

        One of the major issues is that he needs training and practice in being detail-oriented. We’ve tried assigning him tasks that are within his wheelhouse, and he gets the general task done but misses enough details that we need a do-over (e.g. we end up with half a dozen leaky teapots because he didn’t check to see that the spout was perfectly lined up before attaching it). That’s the kind of supervision he needs…

    2. Seriously?*

      If you have something relatively simply that you can make his primary responsibility then that would be a good thing to consider. Even if it is stuff like filing and paperwork. If there really is nothing he can do without close supervision, then tell him that he has been doing a good job but with people quitting and getting sick, you no longer have the staff to train him. Definitely offer to be a reference.

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        Or offer to hire him back if your company situation improves and he is still in the market for a job when that happens?
        Are the various illnesses of a sort that are nearly… not sure the right word to use? Cured? So that your other employees might be back to help supervise him?
        How part time is the student – could his hours be switched around (within his school hours) to fit in with any ebbs and flows in your wife’s workload? (probably not a good parallel, but here we have the much hated zero-hours contract, which basically means the boss could say “sorry, no hours this week coz we’ve no one to supervise you, come back on Monday for four hours instead”)

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Here’s my patented “OMG I’m too busy to train you” training regime.

      Show him how to do 1 thing, even if it’s just a step out of a bigger process. But hopefully it’s something that you are backlogged in. Tell him to do that 1 thing until he runs out. When he runs out have him come to you to learn thing 2… now tell him go and do thing 1 and 2 until he runs out. When that happens teach him thing 3… now he’s able to to do things 1,2, and 3. Keep at this until he’s functional. In the meantime he’ll be productive and out of your hair.

      Here’s my real life example that might make more sense.

      I had batches of daily field work that had to be checked into our system each day. Most were ok, but 1 out 4 or 5 would have a system error (various errors, but let’s say that there were 6 or 7 common ones) that had to be fixed before we could check in/upload the work. I lost some key personnel, so I was trying to fix these daily errors in the evenings after doing my normal job. I couldn’t keep up. So we had a pile of these errors sitting in the corner when my new guy started.

      So day 1 I showed him to fix one error type (we’ll call it type A). I pointed at the pile and told him to go through it, find all of the type A errors and fix them. When you’re done come find me. (This took about 2 or 3 days). When he came to me I said great… now you’re responsible for fixing any new Type A errors that come up daily and let me show you Type B. Same drill, he fixed our backlog of Type B errors, and he was fixing new A and B daily as they happened. I moved him on to Type C… and so on.

      In your case I don’t know the specifics, but surely there are parts that you could break this down in so that he can get good at one bit then when you have time you can teach him the next. Then he’s got two bits he knows.

  163. Janet Snakehole*

    How can I get used to working at a computer all day?

    I’m a recent graduate, and I started in my first full-time professional position a few months ago. I love my new job and have lots of exciting opportunities, but I cannot seem to get my body used to all the computer work. My neck aches every day. I’ve tried messing with the layout of my equipment and chair so I won’t be craning my neck, but I can’t seem to locate a sweet spot that actually works.

    I probably spend about half of my total time in front of a computer screen, but it can vary wildly day to day. Some days I’m out of my office or working on other projects the whole day, and others I’m pretty much parked in one spot for eight hours. I always try to take regular walks and stretch breaks.

    1. Four lights*

      -Look for some yoga videos for office work to help with neck aches.
      -You may need to get a stand for your monitor to make it higher.
      -If you find your face is craning close to the computer, you could make the size of everything bigger on the screen.

    2. wingmaster*

      -I follow some stretches on YouTube videos
      -I have the Body Back Buddy by my desk
      -I create a list of “deskercises” to get me moving and not stiff, like doing walks around the building, desk push ups, etc.
      -I’ve learned that putting the monitor an arm’s length helps
      -Make sure your feet are flat on the floor when sitting

    4. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

      Use a standing desk, if you can. It’s the only thing that solved the neck and back issues for me.

    5. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      -Your chair should be positioned so your feet are flat on the floor, or on a foot rest if you have little legs (like me!).
      -Your keyboard and mouse should be positioned so that WHEN YOU ARE NOT USING THEM your wrists rest comfortably on the desk; DON’T rest your wrists on the desk when you are typing/moving your mouse (RSI/Carpal tunnel)
      -The top of your monitor should be level with your eye line. You may need monitor risers.
      -Your monitor should be approximately arm’s length away, and DIRECTLY in front of you. If you are going to be doing transcribing, you should get a document holder which should be positioned as close to the side of your monitor as possible, so you aren’t twisting your head and neck every few sentences.
      -Your chair should have proper lumbar support. Sometimes this needs to be in the form of an extra cushion, or specialised lumbar brace that straps to the chair. It should be low down to provide proper support to the upper body.
      -Your chair needs to be a proper five-wheel-star base swivel, so you can move your whole body, rather than twisting.
      Those are the basic ergonomics.

      -You need to take a break. 5-10 mins every hour NOT looking at the screen. Focus your eyes on something at least 20-30 feet away. This gives your eyes a rest. Get an eye test to check whether you need corrective lenses.
      – Practise ankle rotations and arm/shoulder stretches. Think how you would keep the circulation going if you were on a transAtlantic flight. Wherever possible, get up and move about, even if it’s just to get a cup of water, or (the other end) a bathroom break. Fit watches are awesome for reminding you to get up and move every 60-90 minutes.
      Those are the basic other health elements

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        Forgot one! The height of your chair should be adjusted so your knees are as close to 90 degrees as possible, and so are your elbows. Hence the foot rest and if necessary, wrist rests (but only when NOT typing/mousing)

    6. Bea*

      Monitor risers are essential for me. I asked my boss a few months ago for them, he was quick to provide them…if you have a cheap boss or have issues getting requests taken care of, they’re cheap to buy yourself or improvise with boxes. And a sturdy desk chair that is adjusted appropriately.

      I use a stretch band during my stretch breaks to add extra resistance to the routine.

    7. UBC Anon*

      Echoing the comments above about checking the ergonomics of your workstation here is a great first step. Here is a resource from my university that walks you through the process: www [dot] hr [dot] ubc [dot] ca/wellbeing-benefits/workplace-health/ergonomics/office-ergonomics/

      I’d also suggest checking in with yourself periodically – is your head/neck neutral or are you always looking up or down? Adjust monitor height as needed. Are you always leaning forward? If so are you straining to read your monitor? Increase font size/magnification as needed – most defaults are too small. Using the resource above review your keyboard and mouse placement. Hope some of this helps!

  164. HereKittyKitty*

    I’m in a conundrum

    A really good job opportunity sort of fell into my lap. It would be about 10k more in pay, and I’m really interested. EXCEPT my manager is on maternity leave and if I left there would be literally 1 person left during the holiday season, a big problem for the company I’m at.

    I’m interviewing for the new job on Tuesday and we’ve briefly talked about negotiating a later start date to give my manager time to get back from leave. If that doesn’t work and they say “leave now or we pass,” do I take the job and quit my current company, leaving my department in shambles? Or do I pass and look for a different opportunity later on?

    I know I need to do what’s best for myself, but I can’t help feeling guilty since so many people are depending on me to step in when my manager is gone.

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Yes, you need to do what’s best for you and take the job if it’s a good fit and more money. Yes, you’re going to feel guilty as hell about it. Yes, your ‘last man standing’ coworker is going to be in a world of hurt. Yes, your current dept will figure things out and be fine.

      1. Utoh!*

        What RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone said. Seriously, you sound like a good person, but don’t let that prevent you from missing out on a great opportunity, not your circus, not your monkeys as they like to say around here. :)

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        They’ll hire temps and get over it. Or if they don’t hire temps, it will be because they calculated the need and decided they didn’t care. None of it is on you. For an extra ten K every year, I would absolutely jump ship – and nobody would blame me. That’s a much bigger raise than I’d ever get here.

    2. Seriously?*

      Take the job. It is not your responsibility to hold your department together. Give as much notice as possible. Offer to train your replacement if possible. The department will survive.

    4. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

      That is a problem. That is their problem. Don’t feel guilty; they will do just fine, and solve their own problems.

    6. Technical_Kitty*

      There are temp agencies and people can be moved internally to cover. The company you work for wouldn’t pass up on a great opportunity for your sake, you shouldn’t for theirs. All you can do is negotiate your later start date if possible, and work with your current company on filling the positions as needed prior to leaving.

      1. Four lights*

        This. It’s good to think of them, but that’s one of the risks of at-will employment, a risk which the business assumes.

  165. Tim*

    Any advice for talking to an employee in a customer service position who is, frankly, an asshole to everyone? Not so much asking what’s going to work (I and my fellow supervisors have tried various things to no effect – she’s the sort of person who’s very proud of her attitude) – asking more for a good way to approach this that is easy to document.

    1. Utoh!*

      You have not mentioned what you’ve tried, but if she’s that bad, how about a PIP to help her improve or create a path for herself out the door?

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Are you going to put her on a PIP or is this a warning of some kind?

      Generally speaking lay out the criteria for what you consider success in the position. A little harder to do with subjective things like ‘don’t be an asshole’ (For the record, I feel like this should be an appropriate and standard employee metric).

      I tripped across this linked in article (linked in my username… will keep it there until next week) and it seemed pretty good at verbalizing the ‘don’t be an asshole’ idea in a PIP, could also be used in a conversation as well. Basically it helps to name the behavior.

    3. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

      I mean, frankly, I think if this is an ongoing issue, and she’s resolutely sucking at her one job, then you should fire her. I’m not sure what needs to be documented other than “have discussed attitude problem with employee four times, no improvement, told her to leave.”

    4. Sloan Kittering*

      I think if the point is to document to make a case for firing the best thing to do is set clear metrics. “I can’t have another customer complaint” might work. “You will be fired if I ever hear you yell at a customer again.” A true PIP should be achievable and you should (ideally) want her to succeed, so if you’re just documenting the case for failure I’d do more of a “one strike” rule maybe. Of course, I understand there can be internal policies that muddy the water on that.

  166. FD*

    “We’ve spoken several times about how you interact with customers. Going forward, we need a few things from you. First of all, when customers approach you, you need to be kind and polite to them. You also need to make an effort to resolve their problems or help them. You also must not argue with the customers.

    “In the past, frankly, I’ve gotten the sense that you pride yourself on being tough with the customers. That isn’t acceptable here. If you can’t change quite quickly, I want to be clear that you won’t be continuing here. With that in mind, do you feel that you want to continue in this role and try to make those changes or would you rather transition out?”

  167. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

    I’m kind of glad this week is biting it in half an hour. I’ve spend the entire damn week accomplishing small, trivial, but necessary tasks that took time and effort way out of proportion to how far they kicked the can down the road, which wasn’t far.

  168. I hate cubicles*

    Looking for advice on how people have dealt with creepy cube mates in an open office floorplan! I’m a twenty-something female entry level employee at a small company (35 total employees) and sit next to male employee who is a couple years older than me. There are 3 other employees who also have desks near our cubes. We have a separator that covers our heads, but my cube is essentially right next to my male colleague’s (let’s call him Jay).

    So, the creepy part–I’ve found that he will only approach me or talk to me when no one else is around our cubes. Like he will only talk to me and start conversation when it is just him and I in our cube area. The minute he realizes that someone in our area walked away, and that it is only him and I working, he’ll stand up and try to strike up a conversation with me. It’s usually nonsensical and doesn’t have to do with work, and his tone in conversation makes it seem like he’s trying to flirt, or start up a flirtatious back and forth which I am totally not having. I would consider it polite chit chat if it wasn’t for the fact that he only does it when no one else is around and it is just him in I in our cube area, it feels like he’s cornering me into conversation when it happens. It makes me uncomfortable because I feel like I’m held hostage to a conversation I didn’t ask for, and no one is around to call him out on his weird habits. Any advice on how to bring this up to him or get him to realize what he’s doing?

    2. Ender*

      Agree with foolofgrace – tell him you’re too busy to talk every time he starts.

      If you aren’t afraid of Confrontation you could just say dude you only ever talk to me when we’re on our own what’s up with that?

    3. Susan K*

      I don’t know if I’d necessarily consider him creepy. It kind of seems like he’s just shy and maybe not comfortable having a conversation in front of an audience. If he is trying to flirt with you, maybe he’ll leave you alone if you make it more clear that you’re not interested. The other replies about always being too busy to talk are good, but might not be enough to get him to take the hint. Are you single? If not, it might help to mention your significant other. If he still keeps doing this, you might have to get more direct, but it seems like he’s already pretty timid about approaching you, so it might not take much to discourage him.

      1. Four lights*

        Good point; he may just be socially awkward.

        You could say, “I don’t like to chat when I’m trying to work”, assuming he won’t see you chatting too much elsewhere.

        And remember he’s interrupting you, so it’s not rude to say, “Excuse me! I need to stop you right there because I need to get back to work and can’t chat now.” As many times as necessary. Or “Sorry, Coworker, but I can’t talk now.” Feel free to ignore after that.

        1. Close Bracket*

          > he may just be socially awkward.

          Just, no. Jumping to “socially awkward” every time a woman is creeped out by a man does a disservice to these women. It doesn’t matter *why* he creeps OP out, it matters *that* he creeps OP out.

  169. Langerhan*

    First of all, a big thanks to Alison and all the commenters here. I’m starting a new job on Monday that had a hyper-competitive interview process and while I didn’t discover this site until after I got the job, it’s been very reassuring reading scripts and scenarios for how to do well in an office.

    I posted a longer version of this last week, but it was too late to get any replies – should I tell my new boss about a recent loss? If so, when? It feels awkward to introduce myself with “hi, I’m Langerhan and the woman who raised me died a couple of weeks ago”, but I know I would tell them if I was already working there when it happened; it’s almost definitely going to affect my performance, although I’m not sure yet to what degree.

    Like I said, the interview process was hyper-competitive (to the point where people I meet socially who are in the industry congratulate me on it, because everyone’s applied but it’s statistically rare to actually get through!) so I don’t want to sound like I’m making excuses when I first get there. Should I just wait and see how I go?

    2. WellRed*

      Wait and see how it goes. Since you’re new, they probably won’t notice if you are a little distracted or whatever.
      No need to be Newbie Whose Mom Just Died. Sorry for your loss.

      1. Langerhan*

        Thank you. I’ve been weirdly anxious about this and my judgement has been not great for the past couple of weeks, so I think I was getting myself too worked up about it.

  170. Cricket l*

    Vent incoming. For the past several years, I’ve been a Teapot Box Packer—the Teapot Makers send me a teapot, I clean it and add the appropriate tags and box packaging, then I hand it off to the teapot store. Because box packing is an entry level job, Teapot Box Packers are paid slightly above minimum wage and given minimal benefits.

    For years, teapot makers would send us two cracked shards of a teapot, then tell us to dig for the remaining pieces and assemble them into a sellable teapot. We’d get teapots with no paint or glaze and have to paint them ourselves. We’d have to figure out from the cranky, overtaxed teapot makers whether these were supposed to be Chinese teapots, or floral teapots, or post-modern mid century teapots, and do all the work to make them look appropriate. And the whole time, if the teapot store didn’t get their expected number of teapot boxes, they said it was because the teapot boxers wer

    1. Cricket*

      Dammit, my comment got cut off. The teapot shop thought the teapot boxers were lazy slackers who couldn’t be bothered to do our simple job of putting tags in boxes, and we needed to be put in our place.

      Fast forward a few years, and thanks to extensive restructuring, my job is actually limited to boxing teapots. The teapot makers provide complete teapots, there’s a new teapot decorating team that does the detailing, and all I have to do is put it in a box and ship it off. And I am SO BORED. The teapot building tasks that I enjoyed are now somebody else’s job, but I have to hold their hand through it because I’m the one with all the experience. And they get credited as teapot makers, which is credit I never got.

      My job is better paid and easier, but I’m getting no fulfillment out of it anymore. The most challenging thing I do is fix the teapot maker’s mistakes and answer the teapot decorator’s questions, leaning on experience and expertise that I was never compensated for or shown appreciation for.

      1. valentine*

        I’m surprised you enjoyed the building, as you were having to do higher-level work without appropriate pay. If you don’t want to transfer to a maker position or they won’t let you, I think a new job in a company that treats you better would do you good.

  171. Lynne879*

    Does it take anyone else forevee to write a cover letter?

    I’ve just spent an hour and a half trying to write a cover letter & I’m only half way done. I use Alison’s posts about cover letters & the examples as guides to help me, but I’m still struggling to write a cover letter that says “I’m the best candidate because of xyz.” Does anyone have any advice?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      That’s not the goal! You can’t know from the outside if you’re the best candidate or not. You should frame it in your head as “this is why I think I’d excel at the job.” Pretend you’re writing an email to a friend explaining that.

    2. Four lights*

      I’ve thought of it as “This is what I can bring to the table” and “This is what I can do on Day 1.”

      If you hire me you get someone with experience in x, including 1, 2, and 3.
      On Day 1, I can learn any computer program.

      Not really in those words, but the sentiment. You might start by thinking of a couple of the most important industry knowledge/skills/experiences you have to offer, and then some important generic job skills (writing, teamwork, organization).

    3. AeroEngineer*

      I got a lot faster after my first couple of cover letters. The first 3-5 I really really struggled at (especially if they were for not really related jobs), how to really put my skills and knowledge and what I can bring in a good light. I took hours to really figure out good phrasing and how to make it really mine and not just a boring letter.

      Now I can crank out one in like an hour or two (I take a little more time for something I really want, to double check the details). I also can pull ideas, phrasing and flow from other letters I have written, which can help in reducing the time. Since I have the experience now, I don’t need to reference so many or any posts and other examples, which also makes things much faster.

    4. Close Bracket*

      Why, yes. Yes, I do. I have written so many at this point that I basically have a template that I can customize to each position-it’s sort of like my resume in that sense. It still takes a long time, but less time that crafting one from scratch for each job.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Me, too. Of course, like you, I customize it to each position, and depending on the job I might add a paragraph where I talk about my previous experience in greater detail and explain how it relates to the current job opening. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel.

  172. Therese*

    Do you think college is a waste? I have a business degree and accounting certificate and unfortunately graduated in 2008 into the recession so I have never been able to make more than $13/hour. This frustrates me a lot and I feel like I am doing all the right things to get better jobs from this site but I either never get interviews or I get them and they end up picking other candidates that they say are “Stronger.” AKA I’m always #2 or #3 in the pile.

    Whenever I complain about this to my husband he just says well college is a waste of time and money and a bunch of B.S. and doesn’t guarantee you a job blah blah blah. He never went to college and jut worked for the family business after high school. I never wanted to be handed a job just b/c of my degree but I feel it should make me a stronger candidate and it did help me a lot grow as a person even though a lot of people don’t see that on paper.

    Just curious what others think.

    1. Holly*

      So… he has a very unique perspective because *he* didn’t need college because all he wanted to do is work for his family business, where he’s essentially guaranteed a job, and that’s what he wants to do. That’s totally fine! But it’s not everyone’s experience. Most people DO need a college degree *at the very least* to even be eligible for a position that they want. However, he’s right that college doesn’t guarantee a job. You have to intern, network, really hustle still. Essentially, to get most jobs these days, you HAVE to have a college degree to even get looked at – but it doesn’t guarantee you anything. I’m sorry you’re having a hard time, but it’s definitely not BECAUSE you went to college.

      1. Holly*

        To clarify by “all he wanted to do” I do not mean to minimize it, I literally mean he didn’t want to work elsewhere that might require a degree

    2. Nacho*

      The easier/more common a college degree becomes, the more people will look down on you for not having one, and the harder it will be to get a job when you’re going up against people who did get one. Maybe that’s not how the world should be, but it’s how it is.

      Like Holly pointed out, your husband’s path wasn’t normal, because all he needed in order to get a job is to be good at it. For most people, being good isn’t as important as being able to prove you’re good, and unless you’ve been in the field for 10 years already, the only way to do that is to get a college degree. More power to him for being lucky enough to have a family that can help him out, but I don’t think he realizes how privileged he was to have a decent job opportunity guaranteed to him after high-school.

    3. Higher Ed Anonymous*

      Yes, this really is an “it depends” situation.

      I’m an instructor at a community college, and I have a lot of students who tell me, “I just want to get a welding certificate/electrician’s certificate/etc. so I can get a job” and resent that they have to take gen ed classes. On the other hand, I also have students coming back to school because they were in welding or a similar career and want something that’s less physically demanding, or less dangerous, or higher-paying. I think the U.S. should be diversifying its options so that you don’t have people who have to go into enormous debt to earn a decent living, but also don’t have absolutely everyone pushed to “just get a job! That’s all that matters!” As we should know from reading Alison’s blog, you can go into a job you always wanted and be bored or upset or dissatisfied or soul-drained, and there are plenty of people who get a “useful” STEM degree and don’t end up working in those fields. I think it has to depend on individual situation, the degree you want, the institutions that are local to you and you can realistically afford, and so on.

    4. Langerhan*

      I’m not sure what sort of jobs you’re going for, but are they jobs you could get without a college degree? If so, then it’s possible your husband’s right (or you need to start looking for jobs better suited to your qualifications and experience). However, you also say your degree helped you grow a lot as a person; that’s something you can’t really put a figure on, so it’s possible that college would have been right for you no matter how much it cost.

      Tertiary education was definitely worth it for me because it was the only way to get certified for the job I wanted. I’m now leaving that job for a job that wants me because of my experience there. Everything I’ve done to get where I am now started with my degree. I graduated the same year as you, so I understand the difficulties you’re facing (I took a heck of a lot of terrible jobs before I got the one I was certified for!), but I like to think of my degree as one of the foundation stones of the career I’ve built. It’s not the whole building, but it’s important and it’s there.

      1. Luisa*

        This was my experience as well. Perhaps I could have gotten a job that I’d have been happy doing, and that I would have made good money doing (where “good” = enough to live on or more), without a college degree. But because the job I wanted (and now have) requires a post-secondary degree, not going to college was not something I considered.

    5. Ender*

      It really depends on the degree and the field. I think in general degrees that are also a qualification are worth the time effort and money. For example becoming a doctor, a teacher, an engineer or an accountant. You cannot legally do those jobs without the qualification. It sounds like your degree taught you a bit about accounting, but not qualified you as an accountant. The company still needs an accountant with an actual qualification to sign off on stuff, so all you can do with that part of your degree is basically assist an accountant, which is obviously not going to pay as well as actually being the accountant. The other part of the degree, business. I must confess I don’t really get what a business degree teaches. You need a business that actually does something – can’t be just in the business of business! In my experience all the people at the top of any business are usually experts in the actual product or service the business provides, not just “business experts”. So I don’t really get the point of it.

      But it could be worse – I know someone who did a degree in philosophy and then discovered that no one wanted to pay him to sit around and pontificate about life! He was unemployed for years until he eventually went back to college.

    6. KR*

      In addition to some great points here, I feel like my education has made me able to do my job and that is the main benefit to higher education. The classes in accounting and business I have taken have really changed how I do my job and given me the skills to stick to budget, recognize the importance of detail when coding invoices, taught me what good accounting practices look like, and at least try to keep up at staff meetings. I was doing pretty well when I was a teenager, working in a small office in local gov but those types of jobs are not plentiful when you’re young. School teaches you what years of trial and error would. Your husband had family to show him this stuff first hand. You can’t go back and change the fact that you went to school. I think its reasonable to mention that that comment is hurtful. Sorry you’ve been jobless.

    7. college graduate*

      No, college is definitely NOT a waste. It’s not for everybody. But for those of us who don’t have a family business to get into, it’s a necessity for career development.

      You can be sure that when you are #2 or #3 on the list, #1 was either kin to the owner or a college graduate, probably both.

      And when you’re as old as I am, you’ll look back on your college experience fondly because it did a lot to grow you as a person and make you a better citizen.

  173. Leslie*

    I just wanted to share some good news!

    I’ve posted on these forums before about the worst job I’ve ever had (staff yelling at me daily, blaming me for things I had no part of, never bothering to help me as a new employee) and was ultimately fired for the first time. I was so crushed, even though that place was awful and I have never seen such lack of structure in my life, I hated saying “i was fired.”

    Exactly one month after I was fired, I landed an interview with my dream company. Several people were up for the position. Today I found out I got it. And they’re paying me higher than what I expected with amazing perks, I’m so excited!

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I love happy endings. Thanks so much for letting us know how well things worked out for you. Congratulations!

  174. A Non E. Mouse*

    Late but hope you see this. I think the answer is: it depends.

    Some jobs require a college degree. Some jobs require a *specific* college degree. Some don’t require a degree at all.

    Depending on what kind of job you want, and how long/how much the degree cost, some would consider it a “waste”.

    In my own household, my husband outearns me by a ton…with no college degree.

    I have a college degree, it didn’t cost me anything (scholarships) but time….but the years I was earning it allowed me to mature greatly. I was NOT work ready when I graduated high school, unless I wanted to work fast food. I mean that’s great if you do (there are actually some decent-earning careers there), but it is NOT my gig.

    In the years I was in college, I held down a job and a few internships, and maintained an A average. It gave me a safe place to be among adults and I don’t know…learn how to pass as one?

    So while my degree does not mean I earn more than my non-degree holding husband, I don’t think it was a waste of time *for me*.

    On the flip side, we are strongly encouraging our children to not go into debt for a degree (with the caveat of medical school, if they choose that) – whatever degree they pursue is likely not worth incurring any debt.

    Some hard work to hold down a job while going to school? Yep. But likely not “worth” any debt.

    2. Therese*

      Yeah I did incur debt to go to school but I really can’t worry about that now. I’m doing my best to pay it off and move on with my life.

      I am similar to you. When I graduated high school I was super shy and socially awkward. I don’t think I would have done well in any kind of job. Going to college helped me come out of my shell and grow as a person. I also grew a lot in my religion during that time which is not related to work but I think helped build my moral compass.

    3. Kit-Kat*

      Not sure if there was anything specific about college but time, but I remember when I first started in my field I felt thankful I wasn’t doing it at a younger age because I thought I wouldn’t have been emotionally mature enough! Studying abroad really helped me gain confidence/independence too. Did it add anything to my career probably not but that’s not the only thing in life. (My study abroad semester was included in tuition so funded by my scholarship!)

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I think some amont of debt is still to be expected for college. Most jobs simply won’t pay enough at that level to pay for college in total.
      That being said, shopping for an education is important. Look for the best quality educational program at the best value. Degree choice is also important, sometimes that expensive specialty degree is not needed. I think a lot of kids fall in love with the idea of going to a particular and usually more expensive school when it isn’t really necessary.

  175. Paige*

    Happy to say that I finally landed a full-time job in my desired field with a major publisher this week. However, I have not put in my resignation at my current job because I’m still waiting to receive (and sign) my offer letter. The parent company is overseas and someone at their headquarters is supposed to email me the form. So far, it’s been three days since since I accepted their offer via email, but my (future boss) is unsure of when I’ll see the offer letter. He’s already contacted them and asked them to send it the day I accepted. I know this part of the process can take time, but when should I start worrying about how long they are taking? I’ve never had a job where I had to sign an official acceptance letter before, and I want to give my current employer enough notice of my leaving without pushing my start date at my new job back too far. (I will have to train my replacement.) Anyone been in a similar position?

    1. Four lights*

      I don’t know what’s normal, but when you think it’s taking too long you could email and say that since you won’t be able to give notice until you get the official offer letter, it may affect your start date.

  176. Kit-Kat*

    How much to share about long term plans/goals during an interview? (Eg “Where do you see yourself in five/ten years?”)

    This may be a specific scenario but I’m slowly making plans to hopefully emigrate (US to Europe) in the next five years. At the moment, this is my main career goal. I’m interviewing for a job that I’m VERY interested in and could see myself working at until I am able to move, so at least 3-5 years. (I have some positive experience with the company as a student though that was a few years ago.) The process of emigration would require me to obtain reciprocal certification of my training/ongoing experience so I’d need some cooperation from my boss, however. How honest should I be? I don’t want to sound like this is a temporary/“starter” job for me. But I also don’t want to completely lie! I may be able to get around this by saying I want to be working in a similar setting?

    1. tab*

      I definitely wouldn’t tell a potential employer that you want to move out of the country in 3-5 years. That won’t help you get a job offer. (Unless, of course you’re applying to a multinational company that has positions overseas.)

    2. Ender*

      I think that question is more about the type of work you see yourself doing rather than the country you see yourself living in. So you don’t have to lie, just describe the type of role you want to have in five years and don’t mention you want it to be in Europe!

      1. Kit-Kat*

        Thanks to you and tab! I’m in that weird grad school position of just now in my late 20s applying to my first “real job” so this is all new. Not taking it as literally as I was is a good first step lol! That goal has framed some major decisions I’ve made lately so I think that’s why it was so hard to parse out what I should actually say.

  177. Herman X.*

    I’ve got two questions that didn’t get answered:

    1. It goes without saying that you shouldn’t fudge employment dates on your résumé, but I’ve heard some people say that it’s OK to omit months. I’m concerned that if I list only years for certain jobs, the inconsistency would raise red flags with recruiters. However, my father says I’m overthinking. Which of us is correct?

    2. I noticed that there isn’t much information on appealing terminations. After being let go from my last job for “under-performance,” the HR rep said there would be an appeals process should I pursue it. This turned out to be unnecessary after I found another (and better!) job. But I’m curious: what’s the best way to appeal a termination in this case?

    Thanks!

    1. BRR*

      If they are much older jobs years are ok but anything even close to recent should include months.

      If you’re in the US and not in a union and don’t have a contract, either of which would specify the process, I really can’t see any termination being successfully appealed. Typically if you’re an at Will employee, when the decision is made then it’s final.

      1. Ender*

        Agree with everything BTR said.

        If you could prove illegal discrimination you would have a chance. Apart from that it just depends on the rules of the company’s appeal process. If you’re not in the US then you can Google the laws in your area

  178. One Bag Fan*

    If your employer pays your return airfare for a work trip, including checked luggage fees which are an optional extra, would you feel obligated to check your bags? The trip is a few days and could be done carry-on only.

      1. Ender*

        Yeah I would just do whatever suited me best. If they’ve already paid, they’re not going to find out if you checked it or not anyway.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Depends on how long you’re staying and what you have. I do not check bags for short 2-3 days trips and I have a little roll aboard for this. However, I recently went to a conference for 7 days and needed a much larger bag, so I checked it. I’ve also on occasion had to check equipment type stuff such as camera equipment or other AV equipment. So, basically my theory is don’t check bags unless you must.

  179. MissMia*

    How can someone transition out of retail? I’m in my early 30s, a front end supervisor.
    I have an associates degree in Liberal Arts, and am 2 classes away from a Bachelors in Psychology. But I can’t afford to finish the degree. Can’t do financial aid because they restructured into trimesters and I can’t do the minimum classes (2 at a time) to get the financial aid. I have 6 years office experience but had to quit 4 years ago because I had a suicide attempt and my Department Head wouldn’t give me the time off (didn’t qualify for FMLA because of part time status) even though my HR rep said I could take a leave of absence.
    I’m tired of cut shifts, getting screamed at by customers for things as trivial as five cents, screamed at by managers, and by coworkers in other departments (because we get internet orders and I need departments to pull items).
    I’ve done office work at a community college, supervised part of a production line, had a stint as a literacy program director (AmeriCorps) for 6 months, years of retail, worked with severely disabled kids and adults, and various other gigs. I have a horrible credit report so I can’t work in banking. I’m not sure where to go next. I keep running into just below not enough experience but right amount of education, too much experience and not enough education, or my credit report gets in the way.

    1. Pinky Pie*

      With your history of depression, I’d go to vocational rehabilitation to see if they could help.

      Around here, I’d tell you to go to a hotel and work in the front desk. That plays on your experience dealing with the public in less retail setting. Maybe try for night auditor but that may depend on credit. From there, transition to office work.

      Another option might be manufacturing, depending on your area. Around here, I could have a job in roughly a week paying more than minimum. (My hip wouldn’t like me after a day, but still).

      1. Ender*

        Seconding temp agency as a good starting point.

        However you might get better answers on the work open thread next Friday.

      2. MissMia*

        I have. They seem to be more concerned with filling spots than meeting my needs. Like placing me on second shift when I told them I had night classes or placing me on shifts when I had obligations that would get in the way and they say “Oh they will work with you” and being upset when I call because its manufacturing and they won’t work with me on scheduling.

        They say I’m not “qualified” for office work even though I have years worth of experience. The issue is the title is Clerk which they think of as a file clerk or something. But I did a secretary job, the college acknowledge it, but changing the title of the job would have meant a significant pay bump that at the time with budget issues they didn’t want to do.

    3. Traveling Teacher*

      Often, universities are looking to get their grad rates as high as possible, and you’re so close! Because you only have a couple classes to go, have you tried speaking with the Dean of the college or continuing ed department, or even the financial aid people? They might have discretionary aid they can award or know of a specific scholarship you can apply to get the financial side straightened out. (Sorry if you’ve already tried this!) Best of luck!

  180. Anon Alfredo Pasta*

    So I got a new job couple months ago thanks to advise from this web
    but like, the more i work in here, the more i have questions about the company

    as an hourly employee who dont have access to profit, big graphs, and stuff, what are other warning signs or general signs that i can know if the company is doing good or doing bad and i should jump ship. I see a lot of google result for warning signs refers to meetings and big executives who i dont even talk to or see… so.. i need new signs to look for

    i feel bad for thinking about jumping but at the same time is like i dont want to go down this titanic

  181. Jo*

    How many meetings is too many? My new manager really likes having meetings for anything that comes up. Whether the topics are important or not, we have meetings for things such as covering social graces with federal employees on federal events (as we’re a contracting company), employee recognition, online assessments for “work personality” (DISC training with an expert), housekeeping, and others.
    The manager gives us these meetings on short notice (usually 30 minutes before), but occasionally will give us extra time to prepare. I’m wondering if it would be easier to have a weekly or biweekly meeting vs one meeting every few days to cover these topics.
    I don’t know if it’s a holdover from when they were at Lockheed Martin or the White House, but to me having these many meetings for short periods of time is excessive and can be done in one meeting. Any suggestions for how to deal with this/what to do with a meeting-happy manager?

  182. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    I had an interview yesterday. It started with the left foot since I arrived considerably late thanks to local traffic, but it went worse. The HR woman kept saying “good” or “excellent” when I explained why I’ve been laid off from my two previous jobs, but the worst was the Tech Lead. He was so hyped that talked fast to the point of breathlessness and said stuff like “we love our project so much that we can’t stop working on it”, “look the time it is and people are still here!”, and “if something comes up during the weekend one of us has to troubleshoot it”, and then denying that people are on call during the weekends. Nope. That sounds like your company got a high profile client you’re desperate to please whatever it takes. I’m sure I found a dumpster fire in the making there.

    1. diagnostic*

      “He was so hyped that talked fast to the point of breathlessness”
      I’m in the U.S.
      When I used to come across that kind of action, it usually meant that the tech lead was taking a lot of Ritalin. This was about ten years ago.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      It’s gotta be kind of a relief that you probably thought your being late would be the problem with the interview, and it turned out they were waving all sorts of red flags.

      Sounds like a bullet dodged!

  183. stitchinthyme*

    Up until almost two years ago, my company never hired junior-level people. But because they were having trouble attracting more senior people, they decided to give entry-level a chance, and they hired two people right out of college. I am friendly with one of them — we bonded over being the only two female software developers in the company — and I found out yesterday that she and the other entry-level person (a guy) are being paid hourly, unlike everyone else in the company, because of a California state law that establishes a minimum salary level in order for an employee to be exempt. (We’re not in CA, but the company has some employees there, so it has to comply with their laws.)

    So, being curious, I Googled that salary level, and then I Googled “entry level software developer salary northern virginia”…and from that bit of research, it seems the entry-level people should be making at least $20K/year more than they are. I told her about this, and advised her to do her own research before her next performance review, which is in a couple of months, and bring it with her when she has her review. I also told her to remember that because of a recent departure, she is now the company’s only UI person, and thus pretty critical. Plus, several senior-level employees have left or given notice in the last few months, and management is seriously worried, because they have been trying to hire more people for a couple years with only limited success — our HR person said recently that the tech sector around here basically has a 0% unemployment rate right now.

    Any other advice I should give my young coworker? She’s had a fair number of clashes with some of the man-children we work with (though it’s actually gotten better for her since the senior UI guy left, since he was the main one she had friction with), and since she’s been here almost two years she’s starting to think of moving on, though she feels guilty about the thought of leaving the company without any UI person. (In response to THAT, I told her, “You do what’s best for YOU, and don’t let guilt about the company factor into your decision. While I do think our management cares about its employees, if it comes down to you vs. their bottom line, they will always choose their bottom line, and that’s true of most companies. They will not look out for you, so you need to look out for yourself.”)

    One more background point to note: about 3 years ago, a new job opportunity (at my husband’s company) fell into my lap, along with an offer that was $20K a year more than I was making at the time. I had planned to turn it down since I was reasonably happy at my current place, but $20K is a hard thing to just turn down out of hand. After agonizing over it for several days, I finally told my boss, and long story short, they ended up matching the offer and I stayed. The relative ease with which they made me that counteroffer made me wonder if I’d been underpaid all along. If my young coworkers really ARE being paid that little (I didn’t ask, since that’s Not Done; I can only infer it based on my research), they’re seriously underpaid for this area and job market. Even for entry-level.

  184. Anonymous Data Geek in CA*

    Going anonymous for this because I can’t disguise the details.

    Short version: over four months after first requesting an (ergonomic) sit/stand desk, my employer is stonewalling me. The outcome I want is a workstation at the office that at least does not increase my pain. Barring that, I would like to be able to work remotely 95% of the time without my boss’s boss telling my out-of-state boss that I need to work at the office on a regularly-scheduled basis. And I’d like to not destroy any job/peer recommendation that might result from working here. The latter might be a lost cause.

    Background: I’m in a highly-skilled/hard-to-fill analytics (i.e., 100% computer-based) position in California and am covered by FMLA and CA employment law. I average >50 hours/week because of that (I’m non-exempt salaried and not a consultant, but we are required to track our hours). I and others in my department (including the department head) regularly work from home/flex hours because we work so much. I do that as well, and my job is not one that requires being in the office, although it would be helpful to be there in-person periodically.

    Over four months ago, I went through proper channels to request a sit/stand desk. After a couple of months, my company “fulfilled” my request for a sit/stand desk with a different model than they have provided for others, including others in my department. It does not fit the cubicle, and it is anti-ergonomic whether sitting or standing (two examples: I cannot view my monitor without craning my neck nor do I have forearm support when using my keyboard/mouse). Using it flared a healing neck disk/existing bone spurs badly enough that I had to get my first-ever nerve-block injection (yay?).

    I requested that they remove it as an interim solution until we could identify a sit/stand desk/workstation that is ergonomic. I have used the phrase “reasonable accommodation.” They have delayed and stonewalled for weeks before finally saying they would schedule an “ergonomic [risk] assessment”. Oh, and they had actually conducted one for other employees a couple of week BEFORE they said that. Except they didn’t inform me that I should be in the office for that — after I’d been clear that I needed to work from home until the sit/stand desk was removed.

    That ergonomic assessment confirmed what I told them more than two months ago and recommended a >1K chair and >1K adjustable-height workstation. Assessment specified that my employer should work with vendors to ensure that I could try out one of the recommended chairs before they purchased one. Instead, they are still doing nothing. Facilities dude is saying that the specific desks recommended in the assessment won’t work with the company cubicle set-up and require “extensive modification” — his suggestion was an “as seen on TV” contraption that sits on the cubicle desk and doesn’t need installation. He has also suggested that I just search a generic “ergonomic chair” on a big-box-store website “because they can be returned”. The directors/VP of HR that are CC:ed on the emails regarding what can be ordered — after approving this request after said ergonomic assessment — are staying silent and are leaving the facilities dude and the junior HR rep to respond.

    I have not involved Compliance in any of this, and I’m feeling really stupid for not doing that, but that feels like lobbing a grenade into all of this. WTF do I do? Or do I just say damn the consequences and request the >1K desk and >1K chair?

      1. valentine*

        If someone else’s setup would work for you, can you use it for a day so you can say they just need to buy another one? Is it possible the HR people aren’t reading the emails because they assume the other people copied are handling it properly? Either call one of them or go directly to Compliance, with a doctor’s note saying the wrong equipment harmed you and file for worker’s comp.

        1. Anonymous Data Geek in CA*

          Unfortunately, I have now realized the “standard” sit/stand desk they provide isn’t really ergonomic either, and I have tested it briefly. The first ergonomic assessment they conducted actually included coworkers who were using the company-supplied sit/stand desk and were experiencing pain because of it.

          But both of you are right. The HR director “approved” the ordering of equipment based on the ergonomic assessment results, so I’ll just ignore the subtext and formally request the more expensive chair. I actually found a showroom over the weekend, and it’s SO much more comfortable. If I get pushback, then my next move will be to open a worker’s comp claim and talk to compliance.

          Thanks!

  185. Podiatry woes*

    Two-parter question here. I work in a hospital and I’m on my feet all day. I’m in the market for a new pair of shoes, but I’m unsure as to which ones. I already wear a pair of OTC orthotics for plantar fasciitis. I know Danskos are the rage, but I hated them. I constantly fell due to the platforms, and oddly, they messed with the circulation in my toes.

    The second part of the problem is the ball(?) of my ankle has swollen, enough that I can see if I look hard enough. I suspect its from the pressure in my ankle from always running around, and my feet are killing me 24/7. I saw a podiatrist before, but it wasn’t successful. But the ankle swelling is new, so I think I should go to another podiatrist. Has anyone had any issues like this before?

    1. Quandong*

      When I worked in retail and was on my feet for many hours each day, my feet hurt and ached, one hip ached, and my lower back hurt. My ankles and feet swelled up during the day and hurt a lot too.

      Seeing a podiatrist, getting appropriate orthotics to wear, and using compression stockings are the things that made the most impact on my pain and circulation.

      I really think you should pursue an appointment with a podiatrist, and if you aren’t satisfied with the outcome, keep trying.

      In the short term, elevating your feet as often as possible, foot baths and massage may be beneficial to reduce some of your pain and discomfort.

    2. Anonymous Data Geek in CA*

      I wasn’t happy with the only podiatrist I’ve ever seen, so I can’t speak to that, but I know what you mean about the Danskos. I hate them too, and I think their lack of cushioning and sole flexibility is a relatively common complaint.

      If you haven’t already, I’d suggest checking out the blog, Barking Dog Shoes (Google their name and “nursing long shifts”)? I know they do flag shoes as helpful for those with plantar fasciitis or orthotics. I have “problem feet”, and have found several pairs of comfortable shoes from the blog.

    3. Piano Girl*

      As a person who has worn prescription orthotics for years, I would highly recommend that you find a different foot doctor, especially since you are on your feet all day. My foot doctor treats me for a number of foot problems and is more than willing to answer any questions that I have.
      I would also suggest that you experiment with different brands of shoes. Because I also have wide feet, I have several pairs of Munros (from Nordstroms). They are expensive, but they accomodate the orthotics and last forever. I also love my one pair of Danskos, but am quite cautious when trying to walk in them!!!

    4. Delta Delta*

      I fall off my Danskos/Sanitas, too. It’s something about the way the sole is angled inward, I think. I’m a longtime fan of birkenstocks (they make shoes as well as sandals). Might be worth a try.

  186. CA Teacher*

    Insert Alison Bat-signal here: Long shot that this will get answered so late, but it’s an emergency!

    My friend is in the final stages for a position at Llamaland corporate. Yedsterday, hurting from a bad breakup, he got too drunk at a Llamaland bar, and security took his annual pass. (not gonna lie, he was calm and collected but it felt like a shitshow). He does have to take this up with the annual pass review board to try to get that back, but right now he wants to know if this will hurt his chances at the job. He is wondering whether he should proactively reach out to the recruiter he has been working with on the chance that the 2 parts of this immense company communicate about this. Any advice would help, he is freaking out, this job is a huge deal for him.

  187. Average Manager 47*

    Is not following the rules when applying for a job a red flag for HR when reviewing applicants? My local school systems require two references and at least one from a current or previous boss when just filling out the application. I have filled out the forms with “available upon an interview” but wondered if not following their rules is keeping my out of the interview pool.

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