open thread – October 26-27, 2018

by Alison Green on October 26, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Labradoodle Daddy*

    Advice desperately needed. I have a problem at my job, more specifically two problem trainees. They’re both women over 55, and have both recently been hired to join the receptionist team I’m on at a hedge fund in NYC. Both women are still in the trainee phase, and both are struggling. They don’t have some of the basic foundation skills to do the job: not familiar with basic functions of Outlook, slow to type and research, etc. They’re also having difficulty remembering their training, even really basic things like “we’re only doing work for/answering requests for the 30th floor today, because you are sitting on 30 and will only be on 30 this whole week, please only focus on 30.” I’m not exaggerating when I say I’ve had to remind one of the trainees of that at least *twenty* times. The other has an MBA from Capella and doesn’t know how to color categorize an email in Outlook. My company (a cruddy staffing firm that provides reception for the hedge fund and is lobbying to have their contract renewed after generally sucking at business) barely screened them during interview processes, didn’t check references, and only interviewed both twice.

    I have a staff meeting today with my manager and the other anchors, and I’m not even really sure how to bring all of this up. Cruddy staffing company needs to up their screening game for candidates, and be aware that places like Capella University and other certificate based programs are usually scams that prey on people who don’t know any better (my manager is Hungarian and not familiar with this aspect of American education, understandably so). They need to make sure people actually have the skills to do this job and not be so desperate to put butts in seats. When we don’t screen employees we get lousy trainees that slow the flow of work, which leaves hedge fund employees annoyed that things are being messed up and longer serving staff members bitter that incompetence is being foisted on them and being made into their problem.

    That being said…. I want both of these women to succeed, because I know people aren’t champing at the bit to hire WOC over 55 (which is BS). But… I also don’t want to be stuck with an employee who is not capable of doing the work, because it’s unfair to both the long standing employees and the new employees. I feel like the staffing firm is ultimately to blame here because they don’t scan their applicants properly and then put them in working situations they can’t manage. I also realize that saying “don’t hire people from diploma mills without making sure they have the skills to do the job” is gonna come across as seriously condescending and potentially classist when said by a university educated white woman to a room that is predominantly WOC with associates degrees (not saying I’m inherently better or smarter, I’m not at all, I just realize that there’s a high potential for me to look like/be an asshole by saying this).

    So… what on earth do I do? I was thinking about suggesting that these women be transferred to other locations staffed by our firm that aren’t so fast paced and demanding.

    1. Psyche*

      It might be better to leave the “diploma mills” out of it and focus on screening for actual skills instead of degrees. A lot of degrees do not actually teach how to use outlook, how to follow instructions and how to work quickly. Maybe have a part of the interview be a quick skill test to see if they are able to handle the works and follow instructions. Are you able to tell the staffing agency that you want to do the final interview yourself? That might make it easier to avoid this in the future.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        I’m stressed because I’ve been suggesting this to management since February and have laid out basically this exact scenario as to why it really needs to happen, but they just don’t listen to us because they need to get butts in seats.

        1. Beatrice*

          Is it possible that people with the skills you’re looking for are not job hunting, and maybe it might help to refocus on what a less-ideal but usable candidate looks like, and have a plan to develop the skills they need? What’s your pool of clients look like – do you have some less-demanding clients who could be a training ground for less-ideal candidates, and can you rotate those candidates up to the more demanding clients when they’ve got the hang of it a little better?

          1. Labradoodle Daddy*

            The people with the skills we’re looking for are getting better offers, we’re only getting people who are young/desperate/have been lied to. So that’s another part of the problem.

            1. Construction Safety*

              And prolly not willing to go thru more than 1 interview for a “receptionist team” job.

              1. Labradoodle Daddy*

                Welllll sometimes recruiting firms lie about the title, which is how qualified people get through.

                1. Labradoodle Daddy*

                  To be fair, “receptionist” only covers a small part of what our job duties are (we’ve been fighting for a title change but they’ve been resistant, mainly bc they’d have to pay us).

            2. IndoorCat*

              ^^^I actually think this is the crux of the problem, not part of it.

              If your company can’t attract / land qualified candidates, then raising the hiring standards, without raising compensation or benefits, is going to result in vacancies. That’s why management isn’t taking your (sensible) advice.

              I’m not sure if you’re in a position to make the job itself more appealing to the kinds of candidates you want to attract. If you aren’t, your best bet may be to switch gears and focus on implementing a longer, more intensive training process.

              So, for example, if people are having trouble remembering that today they are only doing requests for the 30th floor, maybe that can be addressed in training? Like, “Here’s a whiteboard that says what floor you’re working with today. If someone from a different floor makes a request, here’s how to politely decline the request and point them to a different resource.” ‘Here’s how’ might need to be a literal, two-sentence script in a notebook they have in front of them, or on the whiteboard, that they can read every time.

              People often don’t realize how much a person’s memory improved by simply practicing methods of remembering a lot of different kinds of information and learning in what contexts its relevant. That’s one reason you see a huge difference in performance among people who attended different school systems: k-12 schools with higher standards involve more subjects and more / different kinds of memorization, which leads to almost twice the memory capacity in an adult between the high-standard and low-standard schools– because in a person’s developing years, they get twice the memory practice.

              Which is to say, if you’re unable to attract enough candidates who went to four-year universities, you’re also likely to be unable to attract enough candidates who have the built-up learning skills (memory, problem-solving, reading comprehension) you see in four-year university students or those from similar backgrounds.

              The key isn’t to lower your own standards, though, but instead acknowledge where your employees are, and figure out the tools and training they need to succeed. While ideally they would already have the training, and not need tools like specific scripts and whiteboards as memory aids, you can’t get to that ideal from here. So, what’s the Plan B look like?

              For example, Outlook. Are there step-by-step guides you can make for common Outlook tasks? Can you set aside a few days for Outlook training, and make sure they get to practice the specific pattern of tasks enough times that they can do it confidently and quickly (or at least a bit faster?) Is there a way you could encourage them to practice at home– or even provide Chromebooks or similar so they can practice outside of work?

              Or, maybe Plan B looks like recommending these candidates are transferred, and then figuring out how to make it work with the staff you have who are currently succeeding. Maybe understaffed is slightly better than “fully staffed, but two employees are not getting enough work done.”

              I’m not sure which is going to work better in your situation. It’s definitely a tough one :(

              1. ten-four*

                This is excellent advice. OP can’t fix hiring, but they might be able to fix training/ongoing support. With two current people who need it it’s a perfect time to implement a few of these extremely practical ideas; I particularly love the advice to provide scripts for declining/redirecting requests from people outside of their scope.

              2. AnnaBananna*

                In a perfect world, yes, uptraining the new hires would be the thing to do. But I doubt ‘Daddy has that kind of time/budget to devote just to extended training, without letting her own work waylaid. I think the only other option is extended job shadowing, which is a comprimise between both extreme circumstances. Either that or build a budget for a Lynda account (and the like) so the ladies can teach themselves. Some MOOCs are really quite effective!

          2. Nacho*

            It sounds like all she needs is somebody reasonably technologically competent. Somebody with a recent LA degree should either know how to use Outlook and do basic research, or be able to learn it quickly.

      2. Lehigh*

        Agreed, where she got her degree is a red herring. She doesn’t need an MBA of any kind for this job, let alone one from a certain caliber of institution–she just needs certain skills which your agency should be able to run tests during interviews (which, obviously, they’re not doing currently.)

        1. Labradoodle Daddy*

          Yeah, my issue isn’t whether or not someone has a degree, it’s whether or not they have the proper skills (and right now my company is using the degree as an indicator of skills rather than actually testing to make sure they have those skills).

            1. Labradoodle Daddy*

              I know, it’s more my own disbelief that someone with that much education doesn’t know a suuuuuuper basic function of readily available computer software. To my mind that’s like an English major not knowing who Hemingway is.

              1. curly sue*

                I know Outlook is very common, but I’m not surprised that people don’t know how to use it.

                I am over-educated and reasonably computer literate – been using a PC since 1984 and email software of varying stripes since 1992 – and the only reason I know anything about Outlook is because I was forced to use it once at a co-op job I had while in grad school. I know the ins and outs of Pegasus Mail, Thunderbird, Gmail and even remember some of how to use Lotus Notes, but other than that one year-long gig, Outlook was simply never something I had to know anything about.

                (Granted I know enough to know the likely places to look in an email program to find tools like colour-coding and flagging, but that’s also not necessarily a common skill.)

                1. AliceBD*

                  You don’t need to know how to do it. You need to know how to google how to do it and then remember it. That is how I’ve gotten a reputation of being good at computers in multiple offices — not any actual knowledge of computing. Especially for Microsoft products because every question you have for Office is easily findable online.

                2. Labradoodle Daddy*

                  Alice- yeah, that’s the other side of my issue: no initiative to research it, or intuition to figure it out.

              2. Cheryl Blossom*

                Not really– there’s no degree that will teach you how to use Outlook. That’s something you pick up by being in offices.

              3. Clisby Williams*

                Nah, I have a computer science degree and was a programmer for 27 years, and have no idea how to color-categorize emails in Outlook. There was never a need for me to know that.

                I do, on the other hand, know how to google “how to color categorize emails in Outlook” and follow the directions, in case circumstances ever arose where it would be useful for me to know how.

              4. WellRed*

                Is Outlook an email program? At any rate, never used it. I do however, know who Hemingway is
                ; )

              5. RobotWithHumanHair*

                Honestly, that would bother me too. I’ve essentially been exposed to computers since I was 5 (back in 1984 with my good ol’ Commodore 64) and I’d actually never used Outlook until I started my current job about a year and a half ago. Picked it right up and didn’t have any issues with functionality. Any questions I did have (like where I set the ‘out of office’ message, etc.), I just Googled it. When I do that to solve problems, it astounds some of my colleagues.

                I don’t know if it’s a tech savvy thing or a generational thing, but there’s definitely a technology gap.

                1. Ann O.*

                  I have been so successful in high-level technical editing work that involves coding because I’m willing to Google for information. I’m constantly astounded by how few people seem willing to do that. I’m not even great at Googling.

                  That said, while I do know how to color code Outlook emails, I’ve never found it a useful way to organize them.

                2. Susan Ryan*

                  Not generational. I’m 70 and know how to Google anything. If it is a process I also know how to Youtube to snake drains.

              6. Seeking Second Childhood*

                If they’ve never had reason to categorize emails, it’s not obvious.
                Along with the scripts printout suggested by someone else, how about a larger reference sheet for basic tasks. It would include defining the categories and when to apply, and whatever else is being confused. Maybe one can be set up for each desk you cover, with a way for staff to add notes on new situations that come up at that station. (“If the Fire Marshall visits, give her the wifi password to use while she waits, and call BigBoss. If BigBoss isn’t available immediately, call AdminWhoKnowsAll.”)

              7. pcake*

                I work on my computer for a living, and I’ve done so since 1996. I use Open Office, notepad, Photoshop, Notepad ++ and lots of other programs; I make my own spreadsheets, PDFs, sound files, videos, some graphics, do some minor programming, and can work with a variety of CMSes including WordPress, creating pages using html. That being said, I’ve never used or had to use Outlook.

      3. MsChanandlerBong*

        I agree with you wholeheartedly. We have people with grad degrees from Harvard who can’t follow simple instructions, and we have people with high-school diplomas who are smart and come up with innovative solutions to problems. Now that I do a lot of hiring, I put very little stock in degrees, at least in terms of assessing a candidate’s knowledge and skills.

      4. Yorick*

        I have a PhD from a top institution and I don’t know how to color code in Outlook. I imagine I could do it again after someone showed me how, though

        1. NACSACJACK*

          Yep. I’ve been in IT for 25 years and I’ve been shown how to do it, but I never have. I currently have no reason to do it. I could start by tagging the invidual projects I”m working on, but the colors would have to repeat due to limited palette. If I search for all yellow tagged emails, I”d have to remember “was that for 2017, 2019 or 221”? I just file everything

          2. AnonReader*

            You can also just create a category that is white so it doesn’t assign a color but assigns the title you want like “2017” and use that to sort. I find categories super helpful with contacts. I use limited color coding with emails (review, follow up, to do) and the post-its function.

    2. MuseumChick*

      I understand you want to do everything you can to have these women succeed. But the bottom line is, it sounds like they are just not a match for what you need this position. You are evaluating them on their work, not their age or other factors.

      I would just lay you everything you say here in your meeting and suggest you give each of these women one file warning “We are not seeing the improvements or the work quality we need for this position. If we don’t see that soon it will effect your employment here.” The things you are asking of these women sound completely reasonable. You can have someone who is bad at their job in a position simply because you feel for them. I completely understand the impulse.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        That’s why I’m hoping that someone in management takes the suggestion that they be moved to another (less fast paced) site to heart.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        I think this is the line I would take. The candidates must have X, Y and Z skills BEFORE they can reliably be placed in such a position at this firm. It doesn’t matter what their age or degree is.

        And I’ve worked with many people over 50 who are very good at those skills and many under 30 who are not, so it’s not an age thing.

        1. Clisby Williams*

          I would almost think older people would know more about Outlook than younger ones. I don’t think either my 22-year-old or my 16-year-old has ever used Outlook – not even for its most basic read a message/reply to a message functions. Google apps is so prevalent in schools/universities now – that’s what I’d expect younger people to know.

    3. canamera*

      Don’t blame the screening firm. They barely talk to candidates (if at all) before sending them to clients. It’s your company’s job to interview these people to see if they are a good fit. If they can’t do the job, that’s your hiring mistake. So you need to train (or re-train them) with the needed skills.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        I work for the screening firm, they’re the one’s doing the interviews. Staffing firm interviews, hires & staffs for hedge fund (sorry if I wasn’t clear on that!)

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        It is a staffing agency’s job to send qualified candidates to their clients. That is what their reputation is based on.

        Labradoodle – to avoid this in the future, you can ask about testing that they do. When I worked for an agency, we had candidates do various software assessments and would provide scores to our clients if requested.

        1. Labradoodle Daddy*

          I know for a fact they don’t do any kind of testing, and I’m pretty confident they don’t check references either.

        2. Suggestion*

          The assessments could be incorrect, though.

          I applied to work at a staffing firm in 2011. They had me come in and take a typing test, an Excel test, and a Word test…using Office 2000, a program so old I would have only used it in passing in high school.

          1. LilySparrow*

            When I went thru staffing firms, not only were the assessments based on outdated software, they would mark a response as incorrect if you didn’t use one certain way of accomplishing the task. So if you’d never used the software in real life, but memorized a particularly kludgy training manual for that particular version, you’d get high marks.

            If you used office software all the time and knew the shortcuts and organizing principles to accomplish the task in any version, you’d be marked down.

            1. AdminX2*

              I’ve taken those SO MANY TIMES. I finally watched the youtube tutorials, took notes on the exact step by step and used that. There are many easy tests and tasks to show actual working knowledge of office suite software, those old auto tests are not one of them.

    4. Quill*

      I don’t think you’d be stepping on any toes if you suggested more intensive, slower paced training – not just for these, but for all incoming trainees. Most of my contract jobs have had 2 weeks to a month of training and then some shadowing of other workers.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        The other trainees are picking up just fine. It’s just these two (and yeah, it’s an unfortunate thing that the young people are picking up and working faster than the older… but that’s what our job requires).

        1. kittymommy*

          Could it be that maybe their outliers in your firm’s hiring practices? It does sound like you are in the perfect position to maybe bring up better screening practices to your firm. As far as these actual employees, this is a tough one. On one hand I’m like you, I would really want to do everything I could to avoid letting them go, but it also sounds like they may just not be capable of the job. Additionally, if they continue to do poorly you all may lose the contract anyways, and then more jobs might be in jeopardy (is that a possibility?).

          Uggh, you have my utmost sympathy in this!

          1. Labradoodle Daddy*

            Candidates from our firm are all over the place. Some are great, some are awful. It’s always luck of the draw as the company does no kind of screening prior to hiring.

        2. Jewel*

          It’s true in general that young people are quicker to learn though. I once taught a class that was a mix of teenagers and adults and the difference in how quickly they got things was staggering, even comparing teenagers to 30-year-olds.

    5. College Career Counselor*

      I think you are correct in suggesting a transfer to a less-demanding location in these instances. The larger issue, as you note, is the screening process (or lack thereof) and the churn that the lack of screening creates. Does your company use a skills-based screening process? Would TPTB implement one? If you don’t, do you offer skills-based training in outlook, word, excel, etc. that might be of use to the people you’re onboarding? If you offer those, I bet the costs could be incorporated into the service fees paid by the hedge fund clients, and they wouldn’t even blink.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        Nope, they just do one or two in person interviews to make sure you have a pulse and can speak English. I’ve been suggesting screening since February and no one has listened.

        1. nonymous*

          Even if they don’t implement a skills test, can the announcement be revised to ask for examples of using Outlook and any other tools in the resume/cover letter?

          If the company is pretty fast paced the first tier of candidates are going to be the people who have some experience in an admin work of this nature, regardless of educational background. It’s up to you whether you are willing to train up people who have worked with other software (e.g. like at an insurance company or car dealership or vet clinic) or demand that they have exposure to the exact software you use. Some applicants will be able to pick up the skills on the job, but as you’ve discovered, it’s hit-and-miss and not tied to a formal degree program.

          There’s also the “Microsoft Office Specialist” certification route. Just ask that qualified applicants posses certification for Outlook or be able to pass the exam within X months of hire.

        2. Someone Else*

          It sounds like you’ve already been suggesting very reasonable and logical solutions, but are being ignored. Which means unfortunately, your boss sucks and isn’t going to change.

    6. JokeyJules*

      present the facts, “Annie and Alice are having a lot of difficulty keeping up with the level of work we need from them at this office. They are not able to keep up the pace needed with tasks X, Y, and Z. I’ve tried troubleshooting and checking in with them, but it only slows us down further. I don’t think they have the skillset and skill level necessary for this particular office. What are our options here before this snowballs into an even bigger issue?”

      1. Quackeen*

        I agree with this approach and suggest that you add a sentence about the business risks if the hedge fund continues to feel frustrated at the caliber of staff you are sending them. There’s the issue with Annie and Alice, and there’s the larger issue that poses some risks to the relationship with the hedge fund (and possibly/probably other clients).

        1. JokeyJules*

          now that i reread what i said and your response, maybe even change the “before it snowballs into an even bigger issue” say “because I can see the hedge fund firm wanting to go in a different direction over this”.

    7. Freelance Accountant*

      How responsible are you for the two trainees? Do you actually have authority to do something about this, or are you just stuck with the blowback from their incompetence?

      If you have some authority over the trainees then some blunt performance feedback is in order: I need you to (not deal with other floors when you are not scheduled on that floor / make notes about how to do tasks x/y/z in Outlook and refer to those notes when you have a question), etc.

      If you don’t have any authority, then really all you can do is let their supervisor know that they are struggling, and make suggestions (need training in Outlook, need to make notes on how to handle tasks for different floors, etc.), and perhaps give examples of how the trainees’ incompetence is impacting your own performance.

      Sounds very frustrating, good luck!

    8. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      So wait: making sure I have this right. You work for a contractor that does administrative work. Your client is the hedge fund. You use a staffing firm to hire admins and receptionists.

      Do I have that right, or are you employed directly at the hedge fund?

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        Nope, I’m employed by the staffing firm (who are the ones who conduct the interviews to staff the hedge fund). Does that clarify?

        1. Labradoodle Daddy*

          The hedge fund has a contract with the staffing firm, staffing firm hires & places at hedge fund.

        2. HarvestKaleSlaw*

          It does – so basically it’s your own company that is hiring people who can’t do the work.

          I think it’s pretty easy. You are going to lose the client if it keeps going like this, then nobody’s going to have a job.

          1. Labradoodle Daddy*

            I agree with you, but I’m not even sure I can say that *that* bluntly in the meeting (I really, really wish I could).

            1. OlympiasEpiriot*

              Why not? Are they going to fire you? I mean, it reads like this is the situation and that you are the manager for this account. You have the boots-on-the-ground perspective.

              1. Labradoodle Daddy*

                I’m not the manager for this account, I’m a trainer and one of the members of the reception team.

                And yes, they could absolutely fire me.

            2. animaniactoo*

              I’m pretty sure you can.

              “As you know, I’ve been pressing this issue for awhile now. Our contract is up for renewal soon, and my sense is that they are pretty unhappy with our last few placements. If we don’t do something to correct our hiring practices quickly, I am afraid that we are going to lose this client. I am sorry to be so dire, but I think we need to be realistic and recognize that we’re in jeopardy and that even if we manage to get them to sign a renewal, that doesn’t mean they will sign again next year or even break the contract if we don’t shape up soon. As you know, client makes up X portion of our business and losing this contract would be a significant hit for us.

              I have a couple of suggestions that I think would be easy to put into place to turn it around. Should I outline those now or put them forth as a formal proposal in writing?”

              1. animaniactoo*

                Also – advise your two ladies to hit lynda.com or youtube videos for training on Outlook ASAP. Let them know it’s imperative that they get their skills up to date on this because it’s basic skills for the kind of work and even if they end up at another slower location, they’re going to be expected to have this down. So “here are some places where you can get that info and work on it on your own time and get up to speed quickly”.

            3. [insert witty username here]*

              Could you at least bring up concerns about the kind of negative reputation these unskilled, untrained, unscreened workers (aka your 2 problem trainees, in this case) could be creating for ALL your clients?

    9. Artemesia*

      The diploma mill is not the problem with this level of skill required, but it is probably worth making the point to your bosses that diploma mill degrees are not evidence of competence. i.e. don’t rule people out for this type degree, but don’t let it substitute for screening.

      And if people are not up to the job with reasonable training then letting them go needs to happen. So push for better skill screening; there must be tests you can use to weed out the kind of incompetence you are seeing. And if using software is important that is easy to test during screening.

      Focus your feedback on the need to test for skills and aptitudes going in and not letting credentials substitute for that.

    10. ThankYouRoman*

      It’s low paying reception work, why anyone needs a diploma from anywhere is bizarre. I would leave education out of this.

      You shouldn’t be hiring anyone based off only education or only their resumes. That’s what interviewing and preliminary testing is for. You never ever know what someone can do until they’re hired and training. I’ve seen people with impressive schooling fail at general clerical and basic computers.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        They don’t need a diploma, but they DO need the basic skills to do this job (and frankly, they need a higher quality of candidate to successfully do this job and stay with the hedge fund, but that would mean paying the staff proper salaries and giving them benefits and bonuses, and no way in HELL would crappy staffing firm ever let that happen!).

        1. animaniactoo*

          In which case – the hedge fund is getting what they’ve paid for. They’ve outsourced staffing basic positions to a crappy staffing agency, probably because it came in with the most “reasonable” bid for taking that off their hands.

          Keep that in mind as you push for change.

        2. Auntie Social*

          What about sending them to a one day course on Outlook? Those classes send you back full of confidence in your skills and your self. Then if they still can’t do what the job requires, you put them someplace slower paced?? Or at that point you can cut them loose, saying “we’d hoped that your skills would increase. . . .”

    11. irene adler*

      In regards to not remembering their training:
      Are they writing down their instructions? Do they have a reference for using Outlook?
      As a woman over 50, I’m finding my memory is not like it was. So- I use memory aids! Post-its, note pads, etc. I jot down everything.

      Repetition and consistency are both helpful.

      However, if it is an issue of lacking basic skills, then you may have to cut bait here.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        One (who I have been training for several weeks) writes notes in a notebook, but my suspicion is they aren’t very well organized.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Ah… then I double down on the idea of written reference materials that YOU write. Can you get an hour or so at a pop to generate something for their desk (s)? That could be a big help.

    12. Not So Super-visor*

      I understand your frustration. We use a lot of temps for temp-to-hire positions, and we see a lot of churn because we’re sent temps who just don’t have the skill sets to do the job (ie – can’t type, don’t know how to use basic Microsoft applications). It’s frustrating, and it makes you feel like the temp agency (or staffing agency in your case) just don’t care — they’re getting paid as long as they provide you with a body to fill the seat. Just remember, bad hires happen even when you are directly responsible for the hiring process. People lie or exaggerate on their resumes. People get references to lie on their behalf. It may not have been intentional on the staffing agency’s end.
      I think that what you need to do is make a list of the skills that you would expect the person to have. Evaluate the trainees to see if they have the skills that they need to do the job. If they don’t, are these skills that you are able to train them in? If they are, how long would you expect the trainee to need before they are proficient? What is your plan if they don’t meet that time frame? If the skills are not trainable or their not meeting the expectations for training, you may have to just come to terms that you will have to let them go. That sucks, and I’ve had to do it before, so I sympathize. Someone once told me that if letting people go becomes easy for you, then you’re in the wrong position.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        For what it’s worth, I know for a fact that the staffing agency doesn’t do any kind of skills test for this job (and I’m pretty confident they don’t check references). So that’s a big part of the problem.

    13. triplehiccup*

      Is there anyone else at your firm who has managed to make a positive change? If so, I would pick their brain for strategies.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        Nope, because staffing firm is useless and incompetent and wouldn’t know a good suggestion if it punched them in the face.

    15. coffeeee*

      For the record, Cappella is not a diploma mill. I know a Director of a very large company who received an MBA from Capella (after getting a JD at a state school). He was very happy with his experience and learned alot.

      The skillset for the MBA does not include utilizing office programs. While one would assume that someone with an MBA would be adpt to Outlook – it shouldn’t be assumed. I never used Outlook for my MBA (at a different university) – I know how to use the program, but there’s no correlation.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        It is kind of true. I’ve worked with recent young college graduates who did not have good MS Office skills. They could type… but one could not figure out how to make hanging indents or page breaks correctly and as such it took them way too long to format documents. Same with Outlook, I guess they don’t use it at college and many colleges switched to Google docs/everything.

      2. Autumnheart*

        But Capella is a for-profit school that only offers online classes, and isn’t a particularly well-regarded insitution of higher learning. It’s slightly more credible than University of Phoenix, but that’s not saying very much.

        1. Ilikeyoualatte*

          For the record, it’s becoming widely acknowledged that online schools are just as tough ( or tougher for people with low self motivation) as brick and motor. Many state universities even offer full degrees online now. Luckily public perception is starting to change.

          2. Ri13*

            The problem isn’t how tough online schools, it’s that for-profit diploma mills like University of Phoenix have exceedingly low standards and will take anyone, so a degree from them indicates little.

    16. Labradoodle Daddy*

      I’m just a lowly receptionist, can I even make this point to my manager without getting, yknow, fired?

      “You need to start screening candidates because HedgeFund employees are noticing the duds you’ve put in to fill seats, they’re not happy and that will influence whether or not the contract gets renewed. Hedgefund employees don’t care if they see us eat or if we say “hi” instead of “hello,” what they want is a skilled and consistent admin team, which CrappyStaffingFirm is getting in its own way of being able to provide between offering low salary, awful benefits, and a sub-par insurance program. CrappyStaffingFirm WILL lose this contract if they don’t start addressing these problems, even if they’re uncomfortable.”

      1. Not Gary, Gareth*

        First of all: Love the screen name.

        And honestly, I think you could probably make a version of that point in a way that’s respectful and unlikely to result in firing, at least by any manager that’s within a standard deviation of reasonable. Think of it this way: As a receptionist, you’re on the front lines of this problem. You’re seeing results that those farther up the ‘food chain’ aren’t able to witness. Your point of view is valuable, and your input should at the very least be considered and taken seriously.

        I’ve been in a similar position to you – bottom of the org chart, and thus up-close and personal with the results of management’s missteps. In my case there was an awful lot of toxicity and dysfunction, combined with inexperience on my part in dealing with situations like that. Ultimately I did manage to push through a few much-needed changes, although it cost me all the political capital I had. Here are some lessons I learned from that (though your mileage may vary):

        1. Pose it as a solution, not a problem. For example, if you’re going to make the pitch that your company need to start screening candidates, come prepared with some options for doing so. There are lots of assessments candidates can take online, at home, that would at least serve as a wide barometer for someone’s knowledge of Outlook, Excel, Word, their typing speed, etc etc. One of my hardest-earned lessons at ToxicJob was that the people in charge will not put the time and effort into figuring out how to fix the problem. They should – it’s kind of their job – but they won’t. If you come to them and say “I’d like to improve the way we do business by XYZ,” and all they have to do is ask how much it’ll cost and say yes or no, you’re much more likely to see results.

        2. Pick your battles. I really wish I’d learned this one sooner. Assume you’re only going to be able to address one issue at a time, or possibly at all. Decide what’s most important to you and stick with that until it’s run its course, one way or another. In your case it might be pushing for screening, even if it means the pay and benefits and insurance are all going to stay sub-par.

        3. Stay conscious of what’s within your control, and what’s not. This is the hardest one. I spent an awful lot of time and energy trying to change the way certain members of management thought and operated, and it was all wasted effort. You can’t control what others do; only how you react to it. That might mean dialing back on your efforts to pick up the slack for these bad hires. It might mean continuing to remind TPTB that screening would solve some of their problems with minimal time and effort, and even offering to look into how to implement it. It might even mean deciding whether or not it’s worthwhile for you to stay in that job if nothing changes.

        I hope that helps. I know how tough and demoralizing it can be to see problems like this in your company that are so easily fixable, and I hope you get some good results if you decide to bring it up.

    17. Yorick*

      We should try to separate “deserving to have a good job” from “not being right for this job,” both when as the manager/recruiter and the job seeker/employee.

    18. Trainin*

      I would be as patient as possible with the women. Some people just take longer to learn. If they repeatedly forget something, after the second or third reminder, ask them to get out a sticky note or otherwise create a physical reminder for themselves. As far as the computer skills go, if they generally seem to remember something after seeing it a few times, there’s hope. If they totally blank out and don’t seem to retain information at all, then I’d consider that a more serious problem. I’m currently training a young person whose first language is not English. Due to the language barrier and limited computer skills, she often doesn’t know where to find things on the screen (like the “send” button), and I often have to point because she may not understand the word “send” in English. It’s slow and frustrating but not impossible, because she’s bright and conscientious and retains information well. Good luck to you!

    19. Nacho*

      I totally get wanting to go to bat for these women, because you’re right that there aren’t a lot of opportunities for anyone of their age without prior experience. But you’re not a charity, and your job isn’t to give work to people who can’t find it on their own. In the short term, you’re wasting money on people who can’t do the job they were hired for, and in the long term I can’t even imagine how the more competent members of your support staff must feel about the situation, and you’re probably going to lose some of them to that bitterness you mentioned. And then they’ll get replaced by more incompetent new hires in an endless cycle.

    20. anonagain*

      In the short term, are there training resources or job aids you can share? If there’s a calendar, maybe write down what floor you’re supporting that day. (I also like the suggestion to explicitly say “Do not answer questions for other floors.” Focus on floor 30 may leave room for someone to think they are showing initiative by focusing on 30, but still helping other floors occasionally.)

      It sounds like they are not equipped to do this job at this time, but that your management isn’t overly interested in fixing the problem. Giving them a training manual, sending them to a course, etc. isn’t going to solve either situation but it might make things a bit easier on you as far as cleaning up mistakes and repeating instructions.

    21. Chaordic One*

      I’ve found that a lot of these skills are easily learned and it is surprising to me that your trainees are having such problems. That said, you might consider advertising to fill positions at local community colleges that teach courses in specific software applications. Someone who has taken a course in Microsoft Office should definitely be able to fill the requirements you listed.

    22. Tired*

      Age is irrelevant. As is race. I’m 63 and know how to color code in Outlook, among other things. It’s OK to struggle during training, as long as things come together before the training period is over.

      Make your expectations crystal clear, with an end date for overall assessment of their suitability for the job that the candidates are aware of. Let them know if they cannot do certain things by that date they will be let go. Perhaps they will do you a favor and leave on their own accord. Also make sure that your expectations are fair. If you have a training department, have them recommend some pertinent tutorials for them to complete. Or recommend some yourself. Or have the staffing agency address this.

      I’m black and my heart goes out to these ladies, but in no case do you have to accept workers who cannot do the job quickly enough to meet your needs. You are coming from a position of privilege, and I’m glad that you are aware of this. I agree that the staffing firm is the root problem here, and I would no longer give it my business. I hope you can get at least one of the placements to work out, or it will not be a good look.

      Good luck to you.

      1. Tired*

        I see that you are the staffing agency, sorry. Fire yourself, LOL. Seriously, I know you didn’t select them, but I would bend over backwards to make it work since it’s not their fault they were hired, unless they misrepresented their credentials.

    23. bopper*

      You are noticing these issues…is the hedge firm? Like do they notice that work is being done for the 29th floor? Are they experiencing the delays? Do they need their outlook color coded?

    24. BluntBunny*

      For the were only doing work for the 30th floor this week could an automatic message say this, that way staff contacting reception are aware. For remembering how to do things in outlook most of the things for categorising and responding to emails are just by right clicking them, maybe putting a post it note on top of there pc saying this. Also maybe a printout of screenshots of the things they have to do as most of it will be remembering the icons. Also for colour coding it might be useful/ easier for you to setup rules in outlook for emails from this sender will automatically go in this folder.

  2. FaintlyMacabre*

    Had a phone interview this week. I was preparing for the call a little beforehand, glancing through my notes, skimming my cover letter- and I see a hideous typo in the cover letter. Eeeeeeerrrrrggggghhhh.

    I also kinda flubbed the interview. I was a little off before the call and finding the typo didn’t help. It was all downhill from there. I realize phone interviews make sense, but they are not my fave.

    1. JokeyJules*

      very curious, what was the typo?

      All you can do is try to learn from it, and practice keeping your cool. you’ll get ’em next time!

        1. JokeyJules*

          that’s not even that bad! IMO, a lesser offense than the people who write “defiantly” instead of “Definitely”

        2. CC*

          That’s really minor! Remember, the people interviewing are spending maybe 5-10 seconds reading your cover letter–they probably didn’t catch it!

        4. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Honestly, the only resume I’ve weeded out for a typo was the one whose previous position was “poofreader”…

          It just inherently implied a problem with the stated skillset.

          Supervising a bunch of non-proofreaders, I probably wouldn’t bat an eye.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      This isn’t helpful now, but: remember that they liked your application (typo and all!) enough to invite you to a first interview. Humans make mistakes, and most other humans are respectful of that.

      1. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

        +1! They saw the typo and still brought you in–that counts for something!
        I’ve started interviewing other people lately and I certainly have been giving people the benefit of “Interviewing is hard and weird so you don’t have to be perfect.”

    3. ThankYouRoman*

      I’m so thrilled by cover letters being included at all, I’ll look over clerical errors. So unless it was truly an error that made the letter seem nonsensical, it probably wouldn’t even register!

    4. MissGirl*

      I had a typo on the first line of my resume for a job as an assistant editor! (“A editor” versus “an editor”). I deleted a word right before submitting. I still got an interview and handed them an updated resume when I walked in, never mentioning the typo. Got the job, go figure.

      Your human and you make mistakes. Don’t let it rattle you.

      1. Adele*

        Ha! Love your editing error in your last sentence, especially since it is of the “Eats Shoots and Leaves” variety. My dog and I make lots of mistakes, so it is understandable that your human and you do too. (I’m not implying you are a dog or other non-human.)

  3. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    Commented last week, update and a little more information for this week.

    I am a temp at a company and have been for a solid 3/4 of a year. I get no benefits and am underpaid by a significant amount. Back in August I broached the topic of going full-time with them and was told to wait another month or so. Nothing changed so I kept applying to other jobs. One got back to me and I have now had 2 interviews with them. They scheduled a third for next Thursday in person with the hiring manager. I don’t know how much more time their process is going to take.

    This week my job gave me an offer letter to bring me on full-time. For Reasons, I won’t be able to sign the offer letter until next Friday and would “start” on the following Monday. Current Job knows that I’ve had pings/opportunities come across my desk over the last few months but are not aware that I am in talks with other companies.

    I know I am not the only candidate with Other Job, but it is an amazing opportunity at a company that so far seems to be non-toxic and modern and flexible and functioning in 2018…versus the current company which very much does not fit those criteria. Plus, even though I’ve been here for so long, I am starting with 0 vacation days, not eligible for the 401k until next April, and won’t get healthcare until December. Current Job also gave me exactly the salary I asked for without negotiating with me. Other Job could come through with an offer at any point, and we haven’t touched on salary yet either. But unless I see some glaring red flags on Thursday, I really would rather work there than here.

    It sort of feels like I’m stuck though. I can either not take the job here and hope the other job comes through–potentially ending my contract here because I have made clear that I need to be full time soon–or take this job and sadly wave goodbye to this amazing opportunity as it blows past me outside my very sad, very beige office.

    1. ACDC*

      Some people might disagree with this, but why can’t you accept the offer from current job and then quit if the other offer comes along? Or accept offer at current job and continue job searching?

      1. HBucket*

        I would do what ACDC suggests. Your employer won’t be thrilled but they will get over it. Just know that bridge will be burned

      2. Zennish*

        Personally, I also don’t think there is anything wrong with making the best decision you can at the moment, and if things change tomorrow, then things changed.

      3. Ender Wiggin*

        Exactly. I don’t even see why this is a question! They’ve been stringing you on for months and treating you badly; why are you so keen to treat them better than they treated you?

    2. Penny pen pen*

      Is there a reason why you can’t take the offer from current job and if you do receive an offer from the other company accept that and give notice from current job?

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      Can you take the Current Job and resign if something else comes through – whether it’s Other Job or Something Else Later? Based on what you share, I wouldn’t bend over backwards to be loyal to Current Job. Take it but move forward. If something “falls in your lap” later, so be it.

      Good luck!

    4. Anon From Here*

      Have you told the preferred Other Job that you have an offer in hand from non-preferred job? That could expedite communication or decisionmaking from Other Job.

    5. CatCat*

      I’d contact Other Job and let them know about the offer and that you have until next Friday to give a decision. If you’re a really strong candidate, they may be able to move up their time frame and move the interview scheduled for next Thursday to an earlier date.

      1. Artemesia*

        I’d try to accelerate the other interview if possible, but also would not hesitate to accept job 1 and then give notice two weeks later BECAUSE you have worked there so long — it is not going to be as if you literally worked there a week and then left. You tell them that because the offer was so slow in coming you were looking and this fell in your lap and is a much better offer that you can’t refuse. Hope you get the new offer and it is great.

    6. Freelance Accountant*

      If I were in your shoes, I’d sign the offer letter and start on Monday, but keep pursuing the other opportunity. If the better opportunity comes through, then jump ship and don’t look back! Your current job was perfectly happy to underpay you and keep you on a contract for 9 months, you don’t owe them eternal loyalty just because they finally started to treat you well.

      1. President Porpoise*

        “Well” is overstating it – no PTO to start, other lacking benefits, etc. They wouldn’t bat an eye over replacing you, and you should owe them the exact same loyalty. Accept and see if the other job comes through. Best of luck.

    7. M. Albertine*

      If I understand your timeline correctly, you could ask at the end of your interview on Thursday what their timeline is on making a decision. There’s nothing wrong with letting *them* know you have a competing offer but you are very interested in their company. That will give you more information than you’re working with now.

    9. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      Thanks for all the input y’all! Given the hiring manager’s ridonkulous schedule (it took 3 weeks to schedule the second interview and has taken 2 to get this one on the books) I doubt I’ll be able to accelerate the interview, but I can definitely ask about timing and possibly salary at the end of the next interview. I’ll go ahead and plan to accept this offer unless things change. Who knows, I might not get an offer with Other Job at all, or it might take another month or more anyway. Or it could be less than what Current Job is willing to pay, which could be a non-starter if it is a significant amount less.
      I was worried that I would potentially damage relationships (I really like my supervisor) but I think if I lay it out to her she will understand that I went this route because I felt like I had to, given that Current Job was moving so slowly and it was not certain they would move at all.

      1. Land Mermaid*

        Keep in mind that a lower salary plus benefits can easily outweigh a higher salary with none, so keep that in mind if Other Job does offer you a lower salary.

        Is it at all possible to negotiate with Current Job about salary? You could try countering with a higher salary number and say that you didn’t anticipate not receiving benefits with a full time offer (if that’s true) and so need to adjust the salary based on that. That could also buy you more time since you want to avoid burning bridges with your current supervisor.

        1. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

          So I will *eventually* get access to benefits. Medical starts the month following the start date, 401k next April, and I begin accruing leave from the start date. I am unclear about whether the schedule allows for some flexing, so that is also something I would want to discuss. But I miss out on everything that I would have accrued since I have been a temp, which is some 6 or so days of vacation and 6 or so days of sick leave.

          I would absolutely entertain a somewhat lower salary if there are certain benefits–for example, flex scheduling, a more generous leave policy, working from different locations than the main office, etc.

      2. pcake*

        Sometimes it can take well over a month before a company makes an offer. Years ago, my husband had accepted another job and completed the probationary period before he got an offer from a job he had interviewed with before he even interviewed with the job he accepted. And a family member interviewed for a job with a nearby city and didn’t hear back for over six months, so I’d suggest taking the offer you have – there’s no way to know if or when the untoxic company might make an offer.

        Good luck!

    10. Gaia*

      So normally I would not suggest this but here’s my recommendation:

      take the job in hand now and, if the other job pans out, take it and leave your current job. They have not been good to you. They kept you as a temp for 9 months with no benefits. That is ridiculous for for jobs on the lower end of the skill/pay/opportunity spectrum. Especially in this market, they have to know this is a risk.

      You can try to expedite things with the Other Job but they may not be able to do so.

  4. Let's Bagel*

    I have one of those “Is this normal?” questions and I would be so grateful for any advice!

    For awhile now, I’ve been feeling like I’m ready to move up to the next level at my job. I expressed this to my direct boss and he wholeheartedly agreed with me that he thinks I’m ready too. We discussed what that would mean for me (managing a new client completely on my own) and I said I was very enthusiastic about doing that. Great, he said he’d take it to his boss for approval.

    His boss (who I used to report to before he was promoted himself, so he knows me and my work quite well) informed me that they are going to give me this new client. Great! Except…not the title/salary bump that I had expressed wanting to come with it. When I brought it up at the end of our conversation, I was given a very wishy washy answer about how first I need to “prove myself” and manage the client well (for at least six months), and at that point they can “make a case” for my promotion.

    The thing is, I’ve already done this type of work in the past, at my old job (I came to my current company about 2.5 years ago). I managed my own clients there. At my current job I took on more of a supporting role, because the revenue size of the clients I support here are much larger. But this new client I’m managing brings in about the same revenue as clients I managed solo at my previous job. Both my boss and boss’ boss know about this prior experience.

    It’s been about 3 months so far, and I’m finding myself more and more demoralized as time goes on. It’s been a massive amount of extra work–late nights, extra travel, etc.–but I’ve received no title change, no extra pay and only this lofty promise that my boss will do everything he can to promote me in a few more months, but nothing is guaranteed from the PTB. (As an aside, I do believe that he’ll do everything he can, because my boss is great but ultimately it won’t be up to him.)

    On the one hand, I feel like I’m doing the job of someone one level above me, so I should have been given the title and raise at the outset, not after I’ve already done at least six months’ worth of work. (After all, if they were hiring externally for this, they wouldn’t advertise the position as one level down and say, “Do a good job and we’ll make a case for you to be promoted to the actual level this work requires!”) In that way I feel like I am being taken advantage of, and my company is essentially getting “free” work from me. On the other hand, I know some people think that you should have to prove yourself and do the work that the higher level job entails first before you can get the title.

    What is “normal” here? Am I being taken advantage of, or is it common and expected practice to do it this way? I definitely don’t want to be acting “entitled,” but I can’t help but feel frustrated.

    1. ACDC*

      Yes, you probably should have gotten the raise and title change at the start, but it’s annoyingly common for employers to want you to “prove yourself.” (So dumb because you’ve already been there 2.5 years, nothing should really be a surprise at this point…) That being said, the 6 month mark seems arbitrary and I think you can push back on it. I would schedule a meeting with bosses ASAP and say you want to reevaluate your position now that you’ve been in it a few months. Never hurts to ask.

    2. CatCat*

      Yeah, I agree with ACDC. I’d also start applying to higher level positions (that comes with the title and associated pay) at other companies as well.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      In my (very poor) experience it is normal for internal candidates but really, really! shouldn’t be.
      Go back to your boss and lay it out – you have repeatedly proven yourself and managing this client is requiring more time, energy, and skill than your current pay and title reflects. Your point about a new hire is an excellent one so make the case for the raise and title bump now based on your previous skills and current work product.

      1. Artemesia*

        And if they don’t come through get serious about a job search. Keep it quiet and don’t be in a rush, but you may never get rewarded properly where you are.

    4. OldJules*

      You can do outstanding where you are right now and if they don’t follow through on the comp, look outside. The market is looking for talents. It’s always easier to interview with “here are my accomplishments”. I did a manager’s level job all year and when internally, it didn’t pan out, I looked outside. Starting a new job on Monday.

    5. Waiting At The DMV*

      Some companies only officially promote after a person has proved that they can do the new role for 6 months or so. I think a good question to ask yourself is whether this is the norm at your company or not. If not, then your leadership may just be fearful.

      If I were you, I’d focus on knocking it out of the park, and I’d give myself an internal date to continue working hard through. At that date, if I wasn’t happy with my title/role, I would establish my own new normal (ie a new “good enough” performance threshold that is ok but not amazing) and would shift energy into job hunting.

      But don’t feel bad about this! Sounds like it’s a growth opportunity that can only help you in the long run.

    6. Darren*

      It is pretty common for businesses to want to see their employees operating at a new level consistently before they promote to that level. My work for example requires you to be doing tasks of the next level up consistently for around a year before promotion, it’s a little different (as the performance bonuses are such that exceeding at one level pays basically the same as meeting the expectations of the level above so the rating you will be getting while doing that higher level work means you are kind of being paid for it) but this has seemed pretty typical in most of the places I’ve worked.

    7. designbot*

      It’s definitely a Thing Companies Do to make you “prove” yourself, and discount the ways you’ve already proved yourself. Honestly, I think you probably didn’t advocate for your value in the first place and accepted their downgrade of “well your clients weren’t as big as ours” too readily. I don’t mean this as a slam, as I’ve made the same mistake myself. BUT, at this point, to avoid doing that again, I’d hold out there to get the promotion before jumping ship, otherwise you may find yourself having to prove yourself yet again to a new company, whereas if you bring the better title with you from your current company you’ll have better standing to make a case for yourself when you jump ship.

    8. Meteor*

      You’re certainly entitled to feel frustrated, but I do think this happens somewhat commonly. I have been doing the same job (sometimes more work, and with more praise/accomplishments) as people with the title/pay of a “manager”, while I have the title/pay of a “specialist” because I was hired right out of college. Organizationally the company doesn’t allow recent grads to progress quickly to “manager” level – has nothing to do with my merit.

      If you’re up for it, continue until the 6-month mark, and then advocate strongly for your deserved raise & title change. If you don’t see any progress at that time, and it feels like a hollow promise, it’s probably time to start job hunting.

    9. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

      So, this sounds normal to me. 6 months is a long proving time, but especially when we’re talking about client interaction, it’s understandable to want to test how it works out first.

      Also, FWIW, I don’t think your previous client-management experience really matters here. They might know about the experience, but they didn’t see it. While they obviously have a lot of evidence that you’re good at it, it’s still experience that happened at a different company, so there’s a lot they *don’t* know about how you function. And while you’re a bit demoralized now, imagine if you’d been given the promotion, it didn’t work out (for any one of a million reasons, the least of which simply being that every client at every company is different), and you were either fired or demoted. There’s no way you’d stay at the company if they demoted you, right? For them, I think they view it as pure risk management; you’re good at your job, and they want you to succeed at the next level, and they’re testing it out provisionally first.

      I think you’d be fine to approach your boss and ask about moving up the 6 month timeline if they think you’ve done a great job. Or, you could just ask them if they can start those wheels turning, so the promotion might materialize closer to the 6 month mark (instead of you doing this work for 6 months, then waiting another 3 months on the promotion decision).

      But I wouldn’t push it unless you’re really considering leaving over it. And, ultimately, it sounds like you were happy with your job and pay, asked to advance to the next level, and steps are being taken along those lines, including giving you work that (I presume) you prefer to your purely support role. That’s all progress! Sometimes it’s slower than we’d like, and you should definitely advocate for yourself (more and more vocally as you get closer to looking for other jobs) but there’s nothing egregious here: they laid out a plan, you agreed, and the plan is moving forward.

    10. NotInUS*

      I’m replying late so I don’t know if you’ll see this, but…I’m kind of surprised at the responses here. I think it might depend on industry? If you’re in say Advertising, I would start looking because in my experience from what I’ve seen – it’s never going to happen. When I worked in the Ad world (got out thankfully) I once got the money for the promotion but not the title. I was also doing the workload of 1.5-2 full time people and I would have been expensive to replace. Where I am now, I would buy some of the explanations outlined by others – but only for a while. I ended up moving to another department within my company because my original department never followed through on what was promised. Maybe I just have bad luck, but I would be cautious.

    11. neverjaunty*

      You’re being taken advantage of.

      A real, good-faith probationary period is short; has clearly defined metrics of what “prove yourself” means; and has a clear end point at which you will either qualify for the promotion and raise or not.

      What these people are doing is getting higher-tier work for you at no extra cost, with a vague promise that maybe in six months things might change.

    12. BluntBunny*

      I know you are feeling demoralised because you haven’t been given the title and extra money but are you actually enjoying handling this client on your own? You mention late nights, extra travel and a huge amount of work, a promotion is not going to reduce the workload. Will the promotion fulfill you enough that the stress your feeling doesn’t matter? This is why I don’t thing they are in the wrong for seeing how you will handle it, as it seems like an actual step up and something that not everyone will be able to excel at. I think you should make sure you really can handle this job and all it entails before you demand the promotion because of you get it and then start asking for accommodations and more help I don’t think they would look favourably on it as they were trying to ease you in and especially if other people do without.

      1. Let's Bagel*

        Thanks for your feedback. No, I don’t particularly enjoy my job, but that’s a whole other can of worms. I do think the promotion and raise would fulfill me enough to make dealing with those extra things feel worthwhile. It’s not really a matter of handling it–I’m not asking for favors or extra support, I’m doing the tasks the job requires, meeting my deadlines and each time I ask for feedback from my supervisors I’ve gotten really positive answers–it’s more of a matter of just wanting to feel like I’m being treated fairly and my company values me.

    13. Let's Bagel*

      Thanks to everyone for your responses–I really appreciate it. I think the part that’s really getting to me is that there is not a firm plan in place: Deliver X, you will get Y. Instead it all just feels like I could get screwed over.

      Anyway, I’ll continue to muddle through for now but in the meantime have started to explore what else is out there. Appreciate all the feedback!

  5. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Question for the AAM Lawyer Types – going back to the letter earlier this week about what is considered work hours and not on business trips…

    If someone is injured on a work trip, would that fall under Worker’s Comp? Would it depend on what they were doing at the time?

    1. Amber Rose*

      IANAL but I am a safety manager who has taken classes on safety law: Yes.

      The thing about worker’s comp* is, were you injured while completing duties for your employer? Then you are covered by worker’s comp. Which is why it would be considered a workplace incident if someone took out the garbage and got hit by a car in the parking lot. Or if they showed up on the weekend/after hours to do work and got hurt. However, when my husband was on his way home and got hit by a bus on company property, that was NOT a worker’s comp thing, because he was not doing work.

      *Usual disclaimer: where I am. Some places may be different. It doesn’t seem like there are huge differences but I’m not an expert on every place’s rules.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        So if you were in a different city, it was your off hours, and you were injured in the hotel your company was paying for, that would qualify?

        1. Amber Rose*

          Probably not. The location doesn’t matter, but if you were actively doing something work related, it wouldn’t count as a worker’s comp issue.

          2. kittymommy*

            I just looked at our manual and ours is similar. If you were perfoming the duties and scope of your work (at a conference and get injured while in a session or in the exhibit hall) that is covered. Injured while you are at dinner by yourself (not an official dinner), no.

        2. Construction Safety*

          Varies tremendously by state. In GA, there was a case where the newly hired filed guy was killed in his company truck while moving his mother’s furniture before he ever set foot on the job he was hired for.

          WC had to pay.

          The short answer is: file the claim & let the company/WC carrier sort it out.

      2. Jack Be Nimble*

        I’m also NAL, but my brother received workers’ comp after slipping on the ice in the parking lot at his office while returning from a coffee run. To the best of my knowledge, it’s about whether you were injured at a work site during the course of work-related activities.

        1. Jack Be Nimble*

          I should clarify that he broke his arm pretty badly in the fall and needed emergency surgery to repair the damage!

        2. Doc in a Box*

          That injury sounds awful! I was injured in a bike accident commuting between two worksites in the middle of the day, and had a concussion and an avulsion fracture of my right (dominant-hand) middle finger. I took the bus the rest of the way, passed out while going over a bridge, and showed up to my office dazed and bloody. My co-worker immediately walked me down to occupational health who refused to even look at me until I signed a bunch of paperwork I couldn’t even comprehend.

          I was told no workers’ comp because I was not physically on-site when it happened. Your brother was (relatively) lucky.

      3. Tired*

        I agree, a coworker fell on the exterior stairs of a contractor where she was conducting a site visit and was on workers comp for quite some time.

      2. Drop Bear*

        Well, the decision was overturned by the High Court on appeal. The story is getting to be a bit like the woman who sued McDonalds – lots of judgement about her character in the press (sex romp!) and little discussion about the law – it was more about defining what is ‘after hours’ when travelling for business, not about what activity she was taking part in.

    3. Christmas Carol*

      Back in the day, like in the previous Millennium, a Michigan worker was transferred to his company’s London office. While in England, he began an extra-marital “relationship.” The gentleman and his paramour both passed away due to a carbon monoxide leak in her flat. There then proceeded to be years of court wrangling between the deceased executive’s company, their insurance carrier, and the state Workers’ Comp board as to whether his widow and the other survivors were entitled to W/C death benefits. I don’t remember how it all shook out, but I do remember that some state laws were changed as a result.

    4. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      Yup. This happened to a friend of mine. She was at a conference in Boston for a California company and was at a networking event in the evening after the conference had let out for the day. She was injured at the networking event at a local bar. It fell under Worker’s Comp.

    5. ThankYouRoman*

      Not a lawyer but a safety rep and work directly with WC related shenanigans.

      Workers comp is designed to follow the employer as they’re doing company business.

      The thing that does differ is if you’re out of the country. We’ve been informed if we go to Canada, we’re all good but if we send folks to say England, they’re not covered.

      It has to be classified a work duty. So a networking meal afterwards, yep. Falling at the pool after hours while not representing the company, nope.

      You can also buy extra insurance packages to deal with other emergency events given your perceived liabilities and risks. (Not WC related of course).

    6. Gaia*

      Depends on the state, really.

      In my state it would absolutely be a worker’s comp issue and it absolutely would not matter what they were doing (so long as it wasn’t deemed reckless enough to discount any worker’s comp regardless of where they were or whether they were on duty).

      My state has incredibly employee friendly worker’s comp regulations. OldJob had an employee claim for an injury at a voluntary event provided as a benefit to him for performance. Employee won benefits on the basis that he wouldn’t have been there if not for work, therefore: worker’s comp.

    7. CDM*

      state laws will vary, but in general, if you are travelling at the behest of your employer, any injury from when you leave home until you return regardless of activity would fall under worker’s compensation, with the exclusion of your typical commute.

      Work comp covers all injuries that occur on company property to employees, or off property while acting at the direction of the employer. The employer trades off paying for injuries that may not actually be work related or caused by employer negligence for the benefits of being shielded from employee lawsuits, not paying legal defense costs, and not paying punitive or exemplary damages for negligence.

      And the “work comp pays for employee injured by chandelier while having hotel sex” story goes back to at least the early 90’s (when I was told it by a claims supervisor) – it’s amusing that there is a documented court case from 2007.

    8. DaniCalifornia*

      My dad used to joke that if he died on a business trip it’d be better for my mom cause he’d get extra life insurance money from his company.

      2. nonegiven*

        DH has joked that he can’t afford to retire so he’s waiting to get run over in the fenced, locked parking lot.

  6. E*

    Really liked this article (link to come) about “dream jobs” from Man Repeller. Choicest quote:

    “Part of the stress of the dream job narrative is to hurry up and get everything right the first time. To do that right thing at the right time so you can open the right doors. But that approach limited my vision to a pinhole. When I redefined my success in terms of how I wanted to feel when working or what I wanted to achieve, I found that I was in many ways already doing the kind of work I had dreamed of.”

    It’s a point that really resonated with me, as I have ended up very far away from “what I wanted to be when I grow up” but also very, very happy with what I do.

    Thoughts?

    2. merp*

      I like this a lot, thanks for sharing it. I had trouble with “dream job” type thoughts after finishing grad school last December and despite being 9 months into a job I generally enjoy, I have a hard time kicking the competitive/career ladder sort of thoughts that make me wonder if this is what I wanted after all that time/money in school.

      Not that those aren’t valid questions, but I am genuinely pretty happy and I feel like I get in my own way of that sometimes.

    3. School Inclusion Specialist*

      I’m soooo far away from where I wanted to be as a teen. I had everything planned out, but there was an issue where an internship fell through, so I gave up. Thinking back, I now know what I could have done to figure out something else.
      My first professional job was my second “dream job”… I told everyone it was and how lucky I was to be in it. While maybe the job responsibilities were what I wanted to be doing, the job itself and workplace was a nightmare…and sent me over the edge emotionally. It took years (and lots of therapy) to recover .
      Now, I’m working hard to look at work holistically–Is this what I want my life to look like? Am I participating in the hobbies I enjoy? Am I spending time with family? Do I enjoy going to work? Does my salary cover my needs and some wants?

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      I read this GREAT book several years ago, and I tend to mention it whenever the subject of “dream jobs” or “following your passion” comes up. It’s called So Good They Can’t Ignore You: Why Skills Trump Passion in the Quest for Work You Love by Cal Newport. Bits of it get a a little dry as the author is a computer scientist by training and he tends to get in the weeds about extrapolating data, but the bulk of the book is about him interviewing people who claim to love their jobs, across allllll different fields and industries and whatnot, and looking for commonalities. From the Amazon summary:

      Matching your job to a preexisting passion does not matter, he reveals. Passion comes after you put in the hard work to become excellent at something valuable, not before. In other words, what you do for a living is much less important than how you do it.

    5. Maggie May*

      my answer to the dream job question is always that it’s a role I’m satisfied with and fulfilled in. I’m not going to turn down opportunities for my 5, 10, whatever year plan (questions which I also hate) and I don’t want to feel unfulfilled if I’m not CEO of 17 companies by the time I’m 35. I do point out that at 5 I wanted to be a vet during the day and a ballerina at night, but life got in the way of that plan and I’ve found other things I enjoy. I always feel like they want you to explain what the job they’re interviewing for does lol

      though *cringe* one time in college I said my dream job was relaxing at a beach being paid millions! While true probably not for an interview ha ha

  7. Future Goggles*

    I’m about to get laid off and am looking for a new job.

    I currently do enablement at my job. I create all sorts of training materials. Reference and user guides, video tutorials, e-learning courses, WebEx session, email communications, PowerPoint presentations, wiki pages, etc., etc., etc. I also deliver training and manage content. I am the enablement lead for my part of the organization, but not in a management position.

    Most jobs want a degree in instructional design, which I don’t have, and I have never done real ID outside of training courses. But I’ve been doing this type of work for three and a half years. I’m a career changer so I’m not young and have a long work history in arts and education before that. Can anyone give me an idea of job titles to search for, good companies to look at, what sites are good resources for this kind of work? Advice on applying for this kind of work when I don’t have the degree?

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      Do you have any degree? My company just posted an Instructional Designer position and they have Bachelors degree listed as a requirement but about 5 options are listed with an “or related field” caveat and 3 years experience.
      Lots of places will accept a complimentary degree if you have good experience and can back up your skills claims.

      1. Future Goggles*

        Yes. I have a B.A. and some grad school experience. I also have certifications in training, but nothing from an actual college.

    2. Mbarr*

      Maybe you could switch to being a Technical Writer? There are so many variations of tech writing out there that encompass what you’ve described, or that you could convince them are related to.

      1. Future Goggles*

        I was thinking of looking for technical writing jobs. I’m heavy on the creative side though and I’m a bit worried it won’t translate. But it’s certainly worth a look.

    3. ThankYouRoman*

      Often experience will eclipse a degree requirement. So please still try at jobs that may request one. Worse case it’s a fast “no”.

      I have no degree but with my experience I beat out education requirements frequently. Of course there are firms and institutions that can’t go ahead without a degree but I’m coming at this from a private for profit life.

      1. Future Goggles*

        I’ll definitely apply. I do have a degree, just not and ID degree. It’s good to hear of experiences where people work in this field without the specific degree.

    4. periwinkle*

      My company also hires Instructional Designers; an undergrad degree is required but a degree in instructional design is only a preference and is superseded by actual work experience. With or without the degree, you’ll want a portfolio of actual or sample work as evidence of what you can do.

      It would be a good idea to take a free course on instructional design through Coursera or edX – don’t bother paying for the certificate version. If I were interviewing IDs, I would want to know if they’re familiar with adult learning theories (look up “Andragogy” in Wikipedia for a pretty good basic explanation) and appropriate uses of the different delivery methods (instructor-led, virtual, online courses, job aids, and so forth).

      “Instructional Designer” is the usual job title. I’ve also seen Training Designer, Training Specialist, Learning Specialist, and various combinations of those words. An easy way to search is using the keyword “ADDIE” – and if you don’t know about the ADDIE model, go learn about it because it will come up during interviews!

      There’s a lot of outsourcing going on right now. My employer has a small number of IDs, with most of the design and development work farmed out to companies which specialize in learning development (our staff oversees that contracted work). Those are the companies you’ll see advertising a lot of jobs on Indeed and LinkedIn – small companies with big clients.

      If you get a job in the field, I’d recommend getting the formal education. When I earned a master’s in the field, many of my classmates were already working in ID (including management roles) and wanted to acquire strong foundational theory knowledge that you usually don’t get when you learn by doing.

      The primary professional organization is the Association for Talent Development. If you join the field, you ought to attend their annual conference at least once. It’s HUGE; this year’s conference had around 11,000 attendees and the keynote speaker was Barack Obama. Next year’s keynote is Oprah Winfrey. There are several hundred educational sessions and a huge hall for vendor booths. It’s like a theme park for instructional designers! On a more practical note, go to their website (td dot org) and look for the info on local chapters. If there’s a chapter near you, it’s worth joining as a way to network and learn.

      1. Future Goggles*

        Thank you! So much great advice here. I am familiar with ADDIE and I’ve done it in practice for my own professional development, but I have not done it at an actual job. My current job does not work that way. I’m a a software company and we follow agile methodology for everything.

        Unfortunately, going back to school is not an option for me. I already owe way too much in student loans and I’m simply not willing to add to it. I’m hoping I can work my way up in the field without that.

        1. periwinkle*

          FWIW, our IDs are moving towards an agile framework too! Having that knowledge could be a selling point.

    5. Quackeen*

      I find that positions targeted to Instructional Designer are less flexible with their degree requirements than ones targeted to Learning and Development Specialist/Manager/Program Manager. That’s how it is in my region, at least.

      Mostly I find these roles on indeed, looking either for L&D or Organizational Development.

      I’d check out the Association for Talent Development website and see if there is a chapter local to you.

      1. Future Goggles*

        That’s an interesting point. I’m interviewing right now for an eLearning Manager position and they’re unconcerned that I don’t have the degree. But I’m having trouble finding those jobs in the area I am located.

        Good idea to check for the local ATD. I was a member in a different area years ago but I’ve moved since then and didn’t even think of that.

      1. Future Goggles*

        I usually look up trainer and get a lot of fitness jobs, haha. Adding corporate in front of it would certainly help.

    7. karou*

      This may be off base, but have you considered educational publishing? It may not be an option depending on your area and many people end up in publishing from an arts or humanities background.

      1. Future Goggles*

        Not off base at all! It’s a great idea! I never would have thought about that and it would be an excellent fit. Thank you!

    8. Maggie May*

      I’ve also been looking for a somewhat of a career jump, and for mine they seem to list “technical degree or four years of equivalent experience”. So you could probably frame it that way – sure you didn’t go to school but you’ve been on the force long enough to basically have one.

    9. Res Admin*

      Our university has a whole training center to for educating and training staff in Thing They Need to Know (from the financial system to HR, software, ethics, privacy, and everything else–LOTS of mandatory trainings for faculty and staff depending on what they do). They design these courses for both classroom and on-line as well as tutorials, guides, special presentations, open labs, etc. There is a wide variety and a big need. Could you do something like this? I am sure this isn’t the only university to have such a set-up–esp. in this day and age.

    10. Forevanon*

      Here’s my advice, since I recently did this myself:

      Don’t hesitate to apply to jobs that look like a good fit. I have a high school diploma and zero formal education in my field, but I have a background in compliance and experience developing training (actually very similar to your background, training development-wise) for the industry I currently work in. I’m now a senior ID specialist at a very, very large company making excellent money on a team with a bunch of people that have their masters in instructional design or a related field. Imposter syndrome for days, but it’s a fantastic job.

      Be prepared to have to show some kind of portfolio or do a small project to present as part of the interview process, but also know that it’s very common to not be able to share previous work since it’s the property of the company you did the work for. I work in a industry where a lot of intellectual property is involved, for example, so I couldn’t take any of it with me. But it’s completely reasonable to a potential employer (a good one, anyway) if you have to say “Sorry, I can’t show you anything I have worked on, but I’d be happy to create something on a topic of your choice.”

      Learning consultant, instructional design, training developer, there are a ton of terms this job goes under so just try creative web searching.

      Be open to contract work for more opportunities, and don’t limit yourself to any one industry, ID work is needed EVERYWHERE. My current contract started as a 6 month gig in June and is now extended into June 2019, possibly longer.

      Definitely work with a good recruiter –and I cannot stress this enough, one who understands what instructional design work IS (it’s exactly what you have been doing, if they don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t work with them) — because they can find these jobs way more quickly than you can and understand client needs … and if you post a well-crafted resume on Indeed you will probably be contacted by one soon. Good luck!!

  8. Goes On Anon*

    The following post is very sad. Many of my coworkers who are parents are not able to hear about this right now without crying. The rest of us are merely deeply unhappy. Just a heads up. I hope nobody gets mad at me for posting this, but I’m having a bit of a hard time today myself.

    We have a pretty tight knit team here and everyone is pretty close and we all kind of know each other’s families and stuff. Well, one of those coworkers had to bring his one year old daughter in to the hospital because she was a bit sick. They discovered a tumor. It was removable, so they went in and took it out, but now her internal organs are failing one by one. She is on life support barely hanging on, and she needs multiple transplants. All this happened just this week.

    The details are all on the family’s Go Fund Me page, and it’s just heartbreaking. I hurt for them. Everyone is walking around with :( faces today and it’s hard to focus. I wish I knew what to do. I’m really bad at stuff like this.

    1. Drop Bear*

      How awful. The thing is that pretty much every person is bad at this stuff – not knowing what to say, to do – so don’t get down on yourself about that. And really there isn’t anything you can do, everybody at work needs to work through this in their own way. So let yourself be sad, accept that your work will be affected, accept that people will cry – even you at some point perhaps.
      If you have access to an EAP then go if you think it will help, get support from friends/family, look after yourself and respect the ways that others at work take care of themselves (eg don’t judge someone if you find out they went somewhere ‘fun’ even if you can’t bring yourself to even think of doing that).

    2. Temperance*

      That’s awful. That poor baby, and that poor family. Is someone particularly close with the family, and can someone organize grub hub gift cards, and delivery of paper products?

      2. CastIrony*

        When tragedies strike at my workplace, they ask people to donate some sick/vacation time sometimes. I think the co-worker would benefit from some extra time off for this very difficult time.

        I’m so sorry.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Oh, how awful :(

      If your company has an EAP, maybe see if it’s possible for them to send someone out to your site. At a former job, they provided onsite counselors a few times when colleagues had tragedies.

    4. Artemesia*

      There is no being good at this. A friend’s 3 year old just died; she had been treated for a cureable sometimes but not always common childhood cancer for 2 years; she has struggled and suffered that whole time. She had the best most advanced care possible including stem cell transplant. There is no way to feel good about something like this; there is only sorrow and doing the best you can for the people affected by it. So sorry about your colleague.

    6. ThankYouRoman*

      Good heavens. My heart aches reading this.

      It’s good you’re careful to speak about this in an area away from the effected family and your coworkers. You need an outlet, this kind of thing is a ripple effect in motion.

      I come from a history of childhood tragedy. My best friend and neighbor died when we were kids and his parents were destroyed needless to say.

      The best you can do is stay in loose contact. Don’t hover but don’t disappear. Always stay available to the extent you’re comfortable with. Don’t be demanding of their energy. Don’t take their lack of response or energy personally, still keep the wagons circled and show them as much love and respect as possible.

    7. Kelly AF*

      That is so, so difficult. Really, there IS nothing you can really do to make this situation meaningfully better, which is incredibly stressful. The link in my name is to an article on the “ring theory” of grief/suffering, which I find very helpful. Basically, the sick person is in the innermost ring, with each successive ring around them being in descending orders of closeness. So if I had cancer, I would be in the center, with my husband in the next ring, my parents and brothers in the next, my good friends in the next, extended family in the next, coworkers in the next, etc. The rule is “comfort in, dump out.” That is, you can provide only comfort to people in rings smaller than your own, and you can only complain and seek support from those in rings larger than your own (and possibly in your own ring). I recommend reading it!

    8. What's with Today, today?*

      I can’t imagine how painful that is for everyone. I’m so sorry this is happening.

  9. Penelope*

    How do I remain professional (and not damage my own prospects) when I know I won’t have a job in a few months?

    I posted in last weeks open thread about my workplace deciding not to renew my contract. I have just over two months left on this contract, and while they’re being supportive in terms of letting me take time off for applications etc., I’m having a really hard time staying in a professional mindset at work.

    I feel so bitter about everything, I’m trying my best to conceal it because I don’t want to leave a bad impression and besides, they’ll have have to be my reference. Right now it’s just so hard to act normal or be productive.

    I’ve had a week to wallow about this. I really need to get things into gear. Along with having trouble being productive at work I’m also dreading the whole job search process. So far I’ve just started updating my resume, haven’t even thought about writing cover letters or interview prep (assuming I even get an interview…).

    (I have so much anxiety I’m having trouble sleeping, and I can’t drink coffee because that just exacerbates the anxiety, so on top of being bitter and anxious and stressed I’m also so, so tired.)

    I’m sure there are people here who have been in a similar situation? How did you managed to overcome to bitterness and leave on a positive (as much as possible) note?

    1. Let's Bagel*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this! My advice would be to try, as much as possible, to look at this with some excitement over starting something new. Use this as an opportunity to seek out something you might not have otherwise that excites you–a new city? A new (but related) industry? A new position? I’m certainly not suggesting you overturn your whole professional and personal life, but more so just try to approach this from first principles. What would your ideal position and location be? I think it can be really easy to get comfortable in a job that’s not so great, and it can stagnate your professional growth. While this certainly wasn’t your choice, maybe you can try to see it from the perspective of being a blessing in disguise–a push to find something for yourself that’s better, will make you happier, will make you more money, etc. Don’t go into it with a negative mindset (“I hate job searching, it’s so stressful”). Instead just try to focus on what will ultimately be better about your eventual new position.

      Another note, if it helps: I am currently working with someone who is being laid off in about a month. We really need his help in making the transition a smooth one, and as time has passed and his end date is getting closer, he has become more and more hostile and difficult to work with. I certainly feel for him, but at the end of the day, we all still have to get our jobs done and he’s making it harder for the rest of us. Originally I thought I would be happy to be a reference for him or otherwise help him in his job search if I could, but now I’ve decided I will no longer do either of those things if asked, because his behavior has become so unprofessional of late. I know you already know this, but when you feel yourself getting frustrated and bitter, try to put yourself in how you want your shoes to be one year from now: employed somewhere else, with this being a distant memory, and with good references and congenial relationships left behind at your current job. You won’t want to look back and cringe at something you said/did in a moment of bitterness.

      Good luck!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I also worked for two months after I was notified that I was being laid off. I did two things: 1) focused my work self on finishing off my projects because I was NOT going to be thought of as someone who just ditched work, and 2) focused my non-work self on all the potential opportunities I hadn’t really thought about because I hadn’t looked up from this job in a decade. It helped that I had been mostly angry about the possibility of getting laid off (and fumed to coworkers that I trusted) and was mostly over it by the time it actually happened, so I actually wasn’t bitter during the notice period because I had already started to look forward to the next phase of my life.

        However, it turned out that I was also wildly optimistic about the job hunt. The good thing is that it let me not be bitter while wrapping up my job. The bad thing is that I spent 18 months unemployed, some of which was marked by extreme bitterness and anxiety. And then my company invited me back, fully restored to my previous position but with a much better work assignment. That would definitely NOT have happened if I had let any of that bitterness leak out while in my notice period – several high ranking people went to bat for me to get me back, and they had definitely been in positions to observe any major slacking or unprofessional behavior.

        So, remind yourself about how much you want to preserve the reputation and the relationships you have now (even if you’re not super thrilled that some of them didn’t push enough to renew your contract). Use that for motivation as much as you can. It’s great that they’re giving you latitude to do job hunting stuff on the clock, so if it helps, schedule an hour or two to dedicate to job stuff and then go back to work stuff, just to break up the day. They’re both aimed at furthering your career, just in different ways. Leave a legacy of good work and they’ll miss you when you’re gone. (Okay, not always true and kind of Pollyanna, but that’s what I told myself) But you’ll also be reinforcing your own work ethic and that’ll help you on your next job.

    2. Best of luck in your search*

      I hate that you are going through this, but I thought “Do I want to be remembered as a good coworker who remained professional or someone who lets this mean that they can let things fall apart during their last few months here?” It’s also easier to look for a job when you are employed so I would use the time wisely and apply for as many job as you find that could potentially suit you.

    3. Artemesia*

      Been there, done that when our department got cut in a merger and I had several months left on my contract. It is miserable BUT there is nothing in it for you to be bitter and to let it show. You have to focus on the future and so be in planning your career development. AND people see your professionalism and that will stick. Your next opportunity may well come from or be affected by people who see the work you do now. Nothing kills interest in a candidate faster than hearing that they ‘coasted and did nothing’ when they were on the way out. Conversely people who go out of their way to be effective and easy to work with in a transition will have people who pull for them or give glowing recommendations. And you are more likely to find something new if you are positive, frame this as a growth opportunity and don’t wallow in the bitterness. And believe me I know how hard that is when you have been screwed over. If you are stuck, Cognitive Behavior Therapy is a remarkably effective quick fix.

      1. Xarcady*

        It’s not exactly the same, but I’ve been a temp at my company for two years now. In May, they created a permanent position for my job. In June, the company merged with another company and all hiring got put on hold. It’s still on hold (verified with HR).

        While I would really like to work here–commute is great, salary okay, benefits really good–I’m not holding my breath.

        When I start to get upset about the whole mess, I think about finding another job and giving this place two weeks notice and leaving them in the lurch just before a huge project starts. Take that, you people who refuse to hire me!

        I am actively job-hunting. I try to apply for one job a week, doing a really good job with my resume and cover letter, instead of applying to anything I might remotely be qualified for. I’ve had several phone interviews and two in-person interviews, which makes me think I’m qualified and have a good cover letter and resume. I just need to find the right fit somewhere.

    4. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

      Warning, this is kind of lame advice. But in my most dismal moments this process is what helps me get through, and I found myself in a similar situation once.

      First I wrote out a list of all my fears about the situation. That was a hard list to write, and I cried most of the way through, but what I realized is that most of the things I was anxious about boiled down to: “I’m afraid I won’t get another job.” Sometimes writing them down, makes them look a little less scary.

      So once I identified my key fear, I wrote a list of all the positives, starting with: “I will get another job.” Then “I’m an amazing worker, I will get a great reference from this job” and “maybe my next job will have a better kitchen/snack situation” and “Maybe my next job will have an amazing boss.” Suddenly by the end of this positive list I started looking at my situation as more hopeful. I realized this was an opportunity, not a disaster, and I found I was a lot less bitter as well.

      1. Drop Bear*

        Whatever works! I worked with someone who had been in the same position, and she said she got through it by pretending she was a member of the royal family – having to do boring, stupid things they don’t want to do, talk to people they don’t want to talk to, etc etc but having to always be polite, always seem interested and so on. They didn’t renew her contract, after promising her they would, so the owner’s son could have her job. While she trained him she said it occasionally helped to mentally go full medieval royal and plan his execution – he was, according to her (a woman who never swore), an arrogant d*ck.

    5. ThankYouRoman*

      Your reaction to feel bitter and unproductive are natural. However at very least grasp at the positives, sparse as they seem. You’re being given space to move forward and they’re your reference, keep in mind being your best despite the bad circumstances is in your best interest.

      I would try to focus on the future and just glide through the grind as a necessity to thrive later. It’s hard. You’ve got us to unload on so you’ve got a release!!!

    6. tangerineRose*

      Last time I was in a position like this, my motto was “Work so they’ll miss me when I’m gone.” Not sure if that helps.

    7. Close Bracket*

      I’m really sorry! That sounds terrible and depressing. How is your social support? Do you spend any time socializing outside of work? When I went through terrible times at my last job, having positive social interactions outside of work really helped balance the complete rejection I was experiencing outside work. It actually wasn’t even necessary to talk to people; sometimes it was enough to be around them while having a positive experience. For example, at that time, I went to a beginner meditation group. I didn’t have to talk to anyone there, but the teachers would give a little talk about Buddhism, meditation, and life before starting the meditation session, and listening to them in a group setting helped. I attended a Pilates class that wasn’t the greatest class Pilates-wise, but the teacher was really soothing. Again, no actual interaction required, just enjoyable experiences around other people. I had a couple of volunteer jobs working with kids, one in my field and one out of my field, which of course were heavy on interaction. Kids were great bc you cannot be focused on yourself while you have a kid with needs to attend to, even if it’s just for 2 hours at a time.
      While none of the specific things I mentioned might be interesting to you, perhaps you can come up with similar activities in terms of interaction level that would be more appealing. Pretty much anything you can do that is not your job and that gets you out of the house will break the rumination cycle. It has to be enjoyable, though. If you take something up and it’s filled with negative interactions, drop it. It will just amplify your existing negative interactions.
      Good luck!

    8. MissDisplaced*

      To put it this way, what’s better:
      a) continue to wallow and do nothing to better your situation?
      or
      b) get your ducks in a row, be as prepared as you can be, and leave with a good review and a new job shortly after this one ends?

      I know it sucks, but put that energy into finding something else. Stay calm at work, work as you normally would have and/or begin wrapping things up for a smooth transition, and hunt, hunt hunt. Not doing anything means this job will end and you will only have unemployment and just be starting the job search. Maybe that’s fine if you don’t need the income due to being married or something, and can afford some time off. Surviving was always a huge motivation factor for me.

  10. Quill*

    Same question as last week: any advice wrangling a knowledgeable supervisor who has less practical lab experience than me?

      1. Quill*

        Mostly in terms of keeping our lab work organized / starting and finishing earlier in the day / getting the documents done faster since he’s a notoriously slow notebook writer (and he has to finish writing up the experiment before I can verify it.)

        This week I tried pre-organizing and filling out an equipment table for our experiment, similar to what I’d been doing with my previous supervisor, and he went and copied all the data into his notebook instead of pasting the document (which is allowed under our protocols.) When we go in to test, he doesn’t even bring his notebook into the lab! (He writes everything down after.)

        Also, I actually have more experience than him in teapots, because all of his previous work has been in sugar bowls, and I’m wondering if this is standard for testing sugar bowls. (I don’t know, when I worked in a bowl-adjacent field at a previous job our standards were… nonexistent.)

        1. Artemesia*

          Yikes. Sounds incompetent. Could you volunteer to paste it into his document once or twice so he gets the idea?

          1. Quill*

            I’ve volunteered to make a notebook-ready paste & sign procedure sheet, but so far, no dice. (Testing goes smoothly, but I’m getting tired of chasing him down to sign documents long after we leave the lab…)

        2. irene adler*

          I work in a GMP facility. Do you?
          If so, writing down the data in a non-contemporaneous fashion is not allowed. Hence, it will speed him up if he’s writing the data directly into his notebook as it is generated. Yes, it might end up a bit on the messy side, but that’s to be expected in a lab notebook. Bet he’s one that has to have the notebook all neat and tidy- nice columns with all the data neatly recorded.

          And, not bringing in the notebook into the lab?? Wow.

          1. Quill*

            We’re allowed to write in the material lot numbers as we assemble them / prep them for the experiment, rather than immediately after the experiment, due to some constraints of the experimentation (we work in biosafety hoods…) Data after protocols are run is always entered at time of analysis, it’s just the protocol that I can’t always sign off on because he’s not done transcribing it.

            He seems to be dedicated to writing the procedure down immediately after completion (rather than before/during, but as a result, when we leave the lab, I’m always having to meet back up with him to sign for where I assisted.

            (His notebook is very neat. Mine… looks like the scrapbook from heck, lol.)

            1. Nesprin*

              Ahh- this sounds like a difference of opinion- yours is that lab books are for on the fly -protocol deviation notes, his is that books are for writing down a retrospective with no corrections. I’m of the former mind, but I know people who keep 2 books- one for scribbles and 1 for clean copies….
              Given that he has a system that works for him, your options may be limited unless his approach violates biohazard and or GMP rules. Especially if he’s above you in the heirarchy, your pushback options are few…I’d strongly advise keeping your book up to date- Can you get him to sign off on your book day of? I’m a huge fan of print out protocol, scribble over it and then tape in and sign off- bring him an extra copy?

        3. BluntBunny*

          When I had to experiments that would take 6-8 hours I would set up as much as possible the day before so when I get in in the morning I only need to heat up water bath and start feeds. On the lab book we had excel sheets that would have the time on the side in 10 min intervals and we would have columns were we could put strat time 9.30, 9.50 started feeds 10.00 sample taken etc. We had them taped on the fume cupboards so we could write and see what’s next especially if someone has to cover you while you go toilet. The sheet had the experiment name and you would put in all the steps you had taken and what we were monitoring on 10 min intervals at the end of the experiment we would just stick into the lab book. We had a separate sheet for the formulation which would get stuck in. If you are doing similar experiments each time it should be easy to come up with a experiment worksheet and if he forgets it just tell him to go get it, for my experiments there was nothing much to do in between readings except watch it stirring, clean glassware or prepare for the next stage so if we didn’t write up as we went along you would be sat there staring at it.
          I also would have prepared as much solutions and whatever else you need the day before.

    2. Jack Be Nimble*

      Are there written guidelines for your lab tasks? If not, can you develop them? Framing it as “there’s a standard we must meet,” versus “you’re doing it wrong” usually leads to better results.

  11. Tara S.*

    Has anyone gotten an interview for a GS job in the last year? I apply to at least one federal job a month. I keep getting form letter saying I was sorted into the “best” category, but law requires they move forward with veteran candidates first. I understand and support the point of that policy, but it is so frustrating to know that the hiring managers aren’t even seeing my resume.

    1. Not All*

      Decades as a federal employee here who has been on a lot of hiring panels.

      There are only a couple ways a non-vet who is not already a federal employee is ever going to get hired at any of the agencies I’ve worked at.

      1) be willing to go work at a notoriously problematic office in an extremely undesirable location (remote rural Nevada for example) long enough to get permanent status then apply elsewhere
      1a) go to work for a really problematic agency with extreme turnover to get status
      2) do something like Peace Corps or STEP program that makes you eligible for a special hiring authority
      3)apply for vacancy announcements where they have batched 6+ positions in a low-desirability position/office/agency so the hiring official can make it through the vets to get to the actual people they want

      Trust me, the hiring officials don’t want to be in this position either! I can’t tell you how many panels I’ve been on where there was someone amazing we really really wanted to hire but couldn’t because they were blocked by vets. And I can’t tell you how many positions we’ve simply not filled rather than hire the really horrible vet that was the top of the cert blocking good non-vet candidates.

      It was a well-intentioned policy, but it just isn’t working out in terms of getting the best (or even moderately capable) employees for the tax-payers’ money. But no politician on earth is going to take it on…it would be absolutely toxic.

      1. AnonEmu*

        What agencies does this apply to? Because I’ve been working on applications for some jobs I’ve seen at the USDA, and now I’m wondering if there’s stuff I could be doing differently.

        1. Former Retail Manager*

          To my knowledge, veteran’s preference applies to all federal jobs, so if you’re applying on USAjobs, it likely applies. Usually, there is something in the posting somewhere to alert you. Also, the key to success with USAjobs is to make your resume include as many of the words in the position description as you can. Also, real life resume conventions don’t really apply with the Government, based on my experience, meaning that you shouldn’t think you need to limit your resume to 1 page. If you go over 1 page, that’s fine as long as the information you’re including is accurate and relevant.

      2. Former Retail Manager*

        I cannot agree more about it being a well intentioned policy that often doesn’t play out very well in practice. My agency has hired quite a few over the years and only a couple have been truly outstanding. Most get by doing the minimum and quite a few don’t make it through training or eventually quit because they don’t like (and aren’t very good at) the position. Unfortunately, there are very few, if any, military positions that could even remotely prepare you for my position. I feel it’s a disservice to all involved.

    2. DCGirl*

      My husband got his job by working for a government contractor at his agency first. When a permanent position opened up, he was well-placed to apply for it.

    3. HBucket*

      NotAll and DCGirl provide some great advice. Also, perhaps consider a professional gov’t resume writer. There is a firm I have worked with in the general DC area that really knows it’s stuff. They can’t get you past the veterans’ preference and other priority placements if you don’t qualify, of course.

    5. Curious Cat*

      Just to add on to Not All and DCGirl, depending how far removed you are from undergrad/graduate school, the Pathways program is a great step in the door, too. I was a Pathways intern in college and they tried to offer me a full-time position at the end of it (they thought I was a senior when I was an underclassmen). Also I’ve known many people to do AmeriCorp or FEMACorp to get a leg up.

    6. Former Retail Manager*

      I’d also say that once you’re in the federal system, it’s easier to get other federal jobs, so you only need to get your foot in the door. (Note: I cannot say why this is and I’ve personally never worked for any other federal agency, but we have quite a few folks in my office who have worked at numerous federal agencies and seem to have had no issues moving from one to another.) I’d try to do that at an agency you really want to work at and that has opportunities for advancement, but if that doesn’t work out, then I’d try to just get into any federal agency. Also, realistically, most federal agencies are large enough to have multiple operating divisions and a multitude of different positions that will enable you to find something that you will probably enjoy at some point. Also, being mobile is a huge advantage as NotAll mentioned. If you are able to apply to multiple POD’s (posts of duty) then you have a much better shot at getting in. I also know several people who have done that.

      1. Not All*

        The reason it’s easier is because nearly every position is advertised under (at least) two different advertisements. One listing is open only to current federal employees…that category is open to all permanent federal civilian employees and vets preference doesn’t apply so you are just competing on merit (and the typical job hunting intangibles). The other is open to the general public and then things like vets preference points apply.

        That difference is why most people end up taking a “foot in the door” job in a location they don’t want to live doing a job they don’t want to do for one year to get their permanent status, then start competing for what they actually want to do.

        In general, the more remote and unpleasant the environment, the harder time they have getting people. So places like Battle Mountain, Nevada or Rawlins, Wyoming will have a lot less competition than someplace like Olympia, WA which is both a desirable place to live and right near a base.

    7. Tired*

      Thirty-one year fed here. Federal hiring is slow as fuck. The law doesn’t require moving forward with veterans first, they just get points added to their application if any vets applied. I am not a vet and nonetheless was selected. Depending on whether the job is being filled under direct hire authority or not, the hiring manager may indeed see your application/resume. Call the point of contact on the announcement if you have any questions about the process.

  12. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Late last week, I had a 3h15 in person interview with the manager and 3 colleagues. Think: amazing (it’s on Wikipedia) company, which was supposed to last 2 hours, but ended up 3 hours and 15 minutes.
    We had superb rapport and the interview got more relaxed as it went on, and every project the manager discussed, I had extensive experience in and could definitely speak to it. One of the other interviewees had worked at one of my previous jobs too, and I’ve always gotten raises/great reviews from all past places of employment. I provided references, and the hiring manager said she’d provide an update Monday or Tuesday. Now, it’s Friday, no word–and this was after what I can say felt like the most amazing interview where I had experience in all the right areas. No word. Nothing :((( Usually, I hear back the day of, that I got the job, or after 4-5 business days.

    It would’ve been a much better commute, and it would’ve offered much better 401(k) and maternity leave options (not for now but for 2 years down the line)….even if with slightly less or matched pay with what I’m currently making….

    Tl;dr: Anybody have stories to share, where they had a perfect interview (where you enjoyed it, rapport, felt great, and aced everything) and still didn’t get the job? Where, maybe, it worked out for the better? #halpme…;((((

    1. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      I would wait before jumping to conclusions and try not to dwell. Hiring manager time is not regular people time, and many people are going to feel that an sending an update just to say there isn’t an update isn’t worthwhile.

      Could you get in touch with one of your references to see if they’ve been contacted?

    2. ACDC*

      Have you reached out to them? From what you wrote, it doesn’t sound like you didn’t necessarily not get the job. They just haven’t gotten back to you yet. I would just send an email or call whoever your contact is. At least they can provide context for the delay or give you an answer.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      This is still not a long time for a Monday/Tuesday update. You might still hear something. That said, I know how you feel. I’ve had those interviews. Answered every question thoughtfully and well, established good rapport with everyone, addressed student concerns and interests, fundraising, etc. Aaaaaand, nothing. What I tell myself in those situations is that I was authentic, knowledgeable, personable, brought my “A” game, etc. I did everything _I_ could in that situation. If I don’t go forward, it’s because there’s someone better (for whatever values of “better” apply: more experience, different experience, greater institutional knowledge, known quantity, prior exposure to whatever) than me, OR it’s because the organization doesn’t know what it really wants to do.

      TL;DR: I know I gave it my best; they just didn’t go for what I was offering.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      Yup – great job with HUGE prospects because they are a main supplier for Amazon distribution centers. I had great report with the hiring manager and his boss. I had 2 phone interviews and 2 in person interviews with several calls and email from hiring manager in the meantime asking about things that pop in your brain as “OMG they are writing up an offer” such as my options for a home office setup since WFH was an option and a few other things revolving around salary and benefits. So when the call came that they went with an internal candidate I was crushed.
      2 months later I accepted a job with a 7 minute commute and I’ve worked more than 40 hours about 3 times in 6 years for lots more money.

    5. Bowl of Oranges*

      I’m in almost the exact same boat right now!! It’s not a no yet. No advice or anything… Just commenting to say I hope it works out–for the both of us!:)

    6. Kelly AF*

      Yup! I once had an amazing interview with a company that turned into them tentatively offering me a much higher-level job than the one I was interviewing for on the spot. It was an hour longer than scheduled, they were pulling in lots of people to meet me, the rapport with the two main interviewers was amazing. Basically, they gave me the job description, told me I was perfect, provided free access to their subscription-only website so that I could check it out and speak with them.

      And then…. dead silence. They never responded to any of my emails or phone calls. I never heard another word from them. There are thousands of jobs I haven’t gotten, but that one still baffles me. (And kind of stings, tbh.)

    7. Birch*

      Yep, and it turned out all right in the end! I loved the place, loved the team, but they were going in a different direction than I wanted and it turned out they didn’t have the money to hire my position anyway. Now I’m collaborating with them from a team that’s doing exactly what I wanted to do. It will work out in the end! Maybe you dodged a bullet, maybe the stars didn’t line up, maybe they’ll call you in a few days, maybe you’ll eventually end up working there in the future!

    8. Bex*

      I have a story! A company flew me out for a final round of interviews on a Tuesday. I found out later that I was the only person they flew out and my boss had basically already decided I was the right candidate during the previous round. It still took them until the following Wednesday to make the offer.

      In a previous interview process, the final panel told me that they would be making their decision within 24-48 hours. They actually took almost two weeks because they couldn’t decide between the top two candidates. I didn’t get that one, but the guy that did was also waiting for 2 weeks to hear from them.

      So, in my experience, you’re still well within a normal wait time.

    9. Gaia*

      It is not a “no” yet. It is a “no news.”

      There could be a million reasons why you haven’t heard anything. I know it feels like forever, but 2-3 days later than expected from a hiring manager’s perspective is like….minutes. They could be out sick, there could be scheduling issues. A major thing could have happened that took their attention away for a moment.

      Don’t get yourself down. Just try to put it out of your mind and if you don’t hear anything by next Tuesday, follow up (once – ONLY once).

      Good luck. I’m on a job search too. I know this is so hard.

    10. Perpetua*

      From someone who used to do a lot of hiring – Monday/Tuesday can turn into next week so easily and quickly, even for people who make promises about giving updates and fully mean it at the time, and it doesn’t have to mean anything. It’s central in your life (understandably so), but for them it might be just 10% or less of what they’re working on at the moment, as Alison often points out. And it’s so easy for a bunch of other things to take priority over hiring!

      I’d wait another week or so before inquiring about an update. I know it’s difficult to wait and live in uncertainty, and you can try to move on mentally if you can, but I wouldn’t be so sure I didn’t get the job until more time has passed.

      Good luck!

    11. No Tribble At All*

      I had a 4 hour interview with multiple people, I’m perfectly qualified, I get along well with everyone, they say they’re prepared to make me an offer…. and nothing. They ghost me. I was pretty upset about it at the time, but the company isn’t doing very well now, so I’m glad I didn’t go work for them. Sorry anyways for you :(

    12. Eefs*

      This happens all the time, and I’m afraid you might want to contact them once next week and then forget about it. Unfortunately both my parents are going through the same thing where they’ll go on about four exceptional interviews a month and are consistently not contacted again or turned down even though the hirer is very positive the whole way through the interview. Some of these are major companies, others not. When a reason is stated normally it comes down to issues like salary, commute (employers worry but parents don’t mind) but above all “overqualified” (which frankly just means they’re too old). This is in the Bay Area by the way where there’s just too many incredible young candidates and employers seem to forget that the benefits of hiring people with life experience. Could those elements be a factor for you? Busy metereopolitan area by chance?

    13. Award winning llama wrangler*

      I had an interview that I thought went really well and then had radio silence for two weeks before they asked for references. I knew they couldn’t more than one other candidate that would have anywhere close to the very specific experience I had, but I thought it was possible they’d decided that something else was more important. I ended up getting a great offer, but wow, those two weeks took what felt like about five hundred years.

    14. Hamburke*

      I had 2 experiences like this and the ended differently –
      The first one was right out of college. I interviewed for 2.5 hours in a 1 hour slot (they pulled the big boss and benefit person in). I sent thank yous and followed up a week later with a phone call to the admin (point of contact for this small team but left a message). There aren’t too many lab jobs so when I went to a recruiter 6 weeks later, she still had the position listed open, I said I had interviewed there but hadn’t heard back. She called, they told her I was their top candidate but they hadn’t offered me the job yet. I started working there 3 weeks later.
      More recently, I interviewed for a job and had easy rapport with the hiring manager. The interview was supposed to be 30 minutes, we ended up going to an hour as she started showing me some of the job duties and caught herself as she nearly offered me the job. I didn’t hear for 10 days so I called, she hired someone else. I know what the sticking point was – later hours on short notice – but it was such a great interview.

  13. Otter box*

    I have a question for people in British Columbia. My partner and I moved to Vancouver from the US a little over a year ago, and in the course of things discovered that his employer appears to be violating various labour laws, specifically overtime laws and misclassification of employees. He’s thought about talking to an employment lawyer to see if there is actually anything that can be done, but we’re not sure where to begin. Where would someone start looking for a reputable employment lawyer here? Thank you!

    1. Freelance Accountant*

      Talk to the provincial labour board. The Ministry of Labour in your province is the organization with the power to enforce compliance. If you google British Columbia employment standards act you will find the Ministry’s website, and how to report an employer not conforming to the act. You can call the Ministry and ask an agent all your questions, and keep it anonymous if you want. No need to pay a lawyer, at least not right away.

    2. Anon in AB*

      Have you verified with the BC Employment standards of these violations? I live in Alberta and they are a bible.

      You can search for an employment lawyer on Google, and then verify them through the BC Law society. Employment law is taken very seriously in Canada. Make sure you have proof of their violations. BC is different than Alberta in terms of Overtime laws etc and amount of hours that can be worked. It also depends on whether you are deemed a salaried or hourly employee. I’m salaried and am not entitled to overtime (again this is Alberta!).

      Sorry for the rambling. But you don’t need to be afraid of making a claim!

    3. Lupin Lady*

      Canadian here, but not from BC. The Canada Revenue Agency (same rules province-wide) is really cracking down on employers who mis-classify employees as independent contractors. I reported a past employer to the CRA after I left (before they started the ‘crackdown’) and it was a really good experience. The CRA made my employer re-file my tax documents and pay their and my portion of unemployment insurance premiums. No lawyer or extensive time required, I just needed to answer questions and give them copies of my invoices/paycheques. They weren’t fined beyond paying my portion of the insurance, but I know they got a stern talking to. Now, your situation with moving to Vancouver is more complicated, but hopefully this helps. Good luck!

    4. EA in CA*

      Before taking this to a lawyer, have the conversation with the BC Labour board. I used them all the time for interpretation and explanations of the various employment laws. A lawyer is only going to talk to you once to get a feel for your case and to judge if this is something worth taking on. They will only give you the basic information, because until you are a client, they do not want to be held accountable for any advice they give. Make sure you have concrete examples and document them.

    5. Bobstinacy*

      If you google Work BC you’ll find information about labour laws as they apply to the different industries in BC. There’s also a guide on how to start the complaint process and contact info to the employment standards branch. I’ve had to use the complaint process a few times and it’s usually resolved pretty painlessly.

      If you don’t mind disclosing, what industry do they work in? I live in Vancouver and it feels like a hotbed of industries that rely on violating workers rights to get ahead.

  14. Anon412*

    Commenters, give me a reality check. Is an employer requiring a doctor’s note after you’ve been sick reasonable or unreasonable? My employer is not as bad as some, as they only want a doctor’s note if you’re out for more than three days. But then I still have to go to the doctor. Don’t get me wrong, if I have a fever of over 101, have the chills, or have a throat so sore I can’t swallow, I’m going to the doctor. But I also have a tendency to get colds that last four or five days. I’ve stopped going to the doctor for these, as it’s a waste of time and money, and all they do is say, “yep, you’ve got a cold.” So far, this hasn’t come up with my employer, as I’ve never missed more than three days (thanks to weekends), but the policy still annoys me. Is it an annoying policy, or am I just being overly sensitive? It still feels like having to prove I’m sick.

    1. New Job So Much Better*

      I don’t know if that’s reasonable or not, but I have a suggestion you can make to your employer. If they are going require a note, request they sign up with one of the services that allow you to Skype or call in a doctor’s visit. My employer has one (though I haven’t used it yet) and for $20 we can have a chat with a doctor at home.

      1. Not In NYC Any More*

        This is what I’d suggest. It doesn’t have to be through your company. I’ve used an online service for UTI through my insurance carrier, but I also know our local Urgent Care facility has an online option, and I think a couple of the national pharmacies do, as well. They can email you a PDF doctor’s note that you just print off yourself.

    2. Friday Anon*

      My company has this policy, and I’m fine with it. I think the assumption is that if you are out for more than 3 days, it is for something you would need to go to the doctor for such as the flu, bronchitis, etc. Being out for more than a day or two for a cold seems unusual. I’ve had cold symptoms last for about a week, but the worst is over in a day or two and I go back to work. Maybe if you’re in the healthcare field it’s different since you’re working with a vulnerable population.

      1. Gaia*

        I don’t go to the doctor for the flu but it could easily knock me out for a week. What is the doctor going to do? Tell me to rest, drink fluids, and rest more. All going to the doctor has done is spread my nasty little plague.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          This. In the UK during flu season they even put out ads telling people that unless they are in serious distress there really isn’t much the doctor can do, and the best thing is to stay home and rest. I think you can get a note to say you were out but it’s considered to be a bit of a waste of the doctor’s time (and there’s usually a fee).

          It’s one thing if you are missing a week or more for a serious problem, but sometimes common illness can really knock you out for no apparent reason. Three days seems like an overly stringent requirement.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I don’t know. To me, it was less about proving I was sick and more about proving I was doing what I could to get better. If I’ve been so sick that I need three plus days off, I clearly need to consult a professional about it, and my employer wants to know I’m not just letting it get worse and I’m working on it. Particularly for me, since any unaddressed cold turns almost immediately into bronchitis or pneumonia, and then I need to show that I’m not just taking time off, my doctor really needs me to do X to get better.

      Colds definitely do last more than a couple days sometimes, but I’m usually at least healthy enough to go back to work after two or three days, even if I’m not 100%. A cold where you’re way too sick to work for over three days sounds like more than a cold.

    4. It’s me*

      Is it just a little cold? I mean I work through tail ends of colds all the time. I’m sure doctors don’t want people with colds coming in to infect the rest of the people there because you’re right going to the doctor for that is a waste of time. If you truly need to take 4-5 days off for a cold maybe evaluate why? It doesn’t seem their policy is totally unreasonable it would be ideal if they just accepted you saying “I have a cold” but I have never taken off more than a day for the common cold.

      1. Anon for this*

        I get a cold and there’s a week of me in full-on cold mode. Then there’s a minimum of 4-8 weeks of me hacking my lungs out. Unless it turns into an infection, not one doctor has ever been able to give me anything for it. They recommend the usual home remedies. Obviously, I go back to work as soon as I can, but a cold can mean I’m off for at least 3-4 days.

        We won’t speak of the flu.

        I’d also point out there are people with weakened immune systems out there and what is a 1-2 day thing for you is a very different affair for them.

        1. New Anon*

          I feel like I have a pretty good immune system. I get sick about twice a year–with a cold, a virus, whatever’s going around–but when I get sick, I get sick. I rarely run a fever. But it always follow the same pattern. First a sore throat, caused by drainage, which makes me feel nauseous, then a nose that constantly drips no matter what I do, then being stuffed up that I’m doing tons of gross nose blowing. Throughout all this I feel terrible and couldn’t function at work. Then I’ll have a cough that lasts a few weeks. But yeah, the feeling terrible part will easily last for four days with me. Rarely a week. So I also get “just a cold” but it’s hardly a two day bug.

        2. Gumby*

          I’m very familiar with the post-cold hacking my lungs out thing. My cough sounded horrible. I mostly lived with it because it did last for months and months. A few times I went to the doctor (mainly because other people strongly suggested it) and the initial reaction was super-concerned. Like, “oh, you don’t have to wait in the waiting room, let’s get you a bed so you can lie down” whereas I was all “I’ve been like this for 2 months and only came in because my RA threatened me, I’m fine.”

          There were X-rays. There were blood tests. There were those breathe really hard into this thingamajig tests. (My *favorite* as they inevitably set off more coughing.) In most cases I walked out with standard inhaler prescriptions. Which did probably end things earlier than they would have otherwise.

          But! For the last 3 or 4 years I have avoided the cough-of-death entirely by taking a daily OTC allergy pill based on a suggestion from my doctor. I probably have slight allergies (and also possibly slight asthma) which don’t need treatment for normal day-to-day living but they get amplified by colds and then linger. At least that is my working theory and since the pills are effective I’m fine with it.

        3. EnfysNest*

          I wonder if it would be acceptable for someone with a weakened immune system or who consistently has a timeline like yours to get a note once from their doctor stating that they have a longer recovery time and to resubmit that same note each time the issue comes up so that they don’t have to visit the doctor again every time. I work for a branch of the government, so we have this policy and it’s not going anywhere, but I wonder if reusing the same note for the same issue could be acceptable. Perhaps it could even be considered a form of reasonable accommodation if it was brought up that way?

      2. Dance-y Reagan*

        My colds always, always turn into a URI. When my practice gets a new doctor, they will tell me to tough it out since it’s “just a cold” even though I know the infection is setting in. They make me wait, then it snowballs, and often I need 2 or 3 rounds of antibiotics to knock it out. And NOT a Z-pak; those are worthless with persistent sinus infections.

        Finally, the senior doctor at the practice wrote a note in my file to give me a specific 10-day antibiotic when I come in, and basically told them to take me seriously. He also had me screened for sinus surgery to see if that would help, but I’m not a candidate.

        TL;DR: my colds turn into a 2-week misery-fest. That’s just how it is for some people.

    5. Drop Bear*

      It’s fairly standard where I live – though with UHC the cost isn’t that high. My employer’s reasoning is that if someone is going to be way from work for more than a few days some planning needs to be done around duties, so getting some idea from a doctor about likely return date is helpful.

    6. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      It’s definitely annoying, but on paper that policy is really common. Some managers will enforce it, some won’t. Sometimes it’s there in case a manager suspects an employee is abusing their sick leave. Sometimes it comes from HR, so it isn’t your manager’s call. I would check with your manager to see if it’s something they really enforce, but don’t push back too hard if it is.

      That said, missing three days straight more than once a year for colds is a lot, IMO. I would focus more with your manager on trying to figure out if you can work from home, or schlep in for a couple hours and keep yourself completely isolated from your coworkers, or something to mitigate the missed time.

    7. Psyche*

      I think it is annoying but not egregious. Being sick enough that you can’t work for three days generally does require a doctor’s visit anyway. It feels like having to prove you are sick because that is exactly what they are asking. It is annoying but at least they don’t require it for every single sick day.

    8. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m guessing you have a very generous sick leave policy if you can afford to miss 4 or 5 days for a cold.

      But, yeah, I think requiring a note after missing X number of days is perfectly reasonable.

      1. Anon412*

        I can afford to miss 4 days for a virus that knocks me on my butt, yeah. But we hardly have a generous sick leave policy. I don’t get sick a lot, so it builds up.

    9. CatCat*

      It’s an annoying and infantilizing policy as applied to everyone (I could see it with an employee with chronic absenteeism issues, but otherwise no.)

      I either (1) wouldn’t do it and let the chips fall where the may, or (2) would come in sick on day 4.

      1. Drop Bear*

        For some companies there are legitimate reasons for asking for it – obviously picking 3 days as the cut off point is a bit arbitrary but it has to be some number.

    10. Baby Fishmouth*

      That’s actually a fairly common policy – requiring a doctor’s note after 3 days isn’t egregarious, as usually 3 days off work means it’s something relatively serious-ish.

      Honestly though, taking 4-5 days off for a cold is a lot! I’ve never heard of someone taking that much time off for just a normal, common cold.

      1. Becky*

        I’ve also seen it as an assurance that a doctor clears you as healthy to return to work and (hopefully) not contagious.

    11. Hope*

      It’s an annoying policy, but it’s semi common? At least you only have to do it if it lasts longer than three days. I used to work at a place that required it for any sick leave (and we were responsible for finding coverage…not easy to do when you’re out because you have a sore throat so bad you can’t talk above a whisper). My current employer requires a doctor’s note if we miss a full week, which is a pain, but fortunately not many people are out for that long unless it’s serious.

    12. Anonamoose*

      You are having to prove you’re sick, but if they only want a note if you’re missing three days or more so it seems reasonable. That’s over half the work week out. I feel like any illness that can keep you from going to work for 3+ days is serious enough to warrant going to the doctor–or not so serious you need to miss work. And if I was getting colds regularly, I would wonder if there was some other underlying issue that makes me more susceptible to getting colds that needs to be addressed.

      1. Anon412*

        I never said I was getting them regularly. I sick maybe once a year. But when I do, it hits me. Maybe I’m using the wrong words; everyone seems to think ‘cold’ is something trifling. I’ll get some sort of virus and be sick for the better part of a week. Is that unusual?

        But it’s not strep throat or the flu, just the crud.

        1. CheeryO*

          I think most people take one or two days off and then work through the remainder of the crud, for better or worse. I can’t remember the last time any of my coworkers were out for more than two days for anything other than the flu or surgery.

        2. Toys in the attic*

          I don’t think it’s unusual at all. Case in point: I’m a relatively healthy individual who started getting sick with a run-of-the-mill cold on Tuesday. I called out of work Wed, was still stick but able to work from home Thurs, and am back in the office today, but I still am blowing my nose quite often and coughing, even though I FEEL better and don’t have a fever. And as the day goes on, I’m certainly feeling less well, so I probably should have stayed home again.

          I agree with others who say that it’s not unusual for people to push through the tail end of a cold at work (even though it will certainly slow your recovery time).

      2. Anon for This*

        Why would I go to the doctor for a bad cold? They can’t give you anything. It’s a virus and antibiotics won’t impact it. I get these colds about 1-2 times a year. It’s not like it’s every month and pointing to a larger issue.

        I’m in my fifties and I just don’t bounce back the way I used to. I wish I did, but that’s not the way it works for me anymore.

        Also, to get into the doctor, that either entails an appointment which is hard to get, plus the copay or urgent care, with a really outrageous copay. Usually, I’ve been told that unless the symptoms are really really bad or it’s lasting more than a week, I should stay home, get rest, drink lots of fluids, etc.

        1. Aurora Leigh*

          Will the doctor/nurse send you a doctor’s note if you call in and explain your symptoms?

          Might save you the copay at least.

          We have to have a note if we’re going to be out more than 2 consecutive days. It’s not at the supervisor’s discretion, it’s an edict from HR.

          I was out 4 days last week (3 days w/o pay as we don’t have sick leave and can’t roll over vacation so I didn’t have much left). I did have a note as my bf made me go to the dr and I was prescribed antibiotics, so it was okay.
          (It was an eye/sinus infection).

          I would have been really peeved though if it was just flu, no point is paying the $60 copay to get a note for that.

          1. Anon for This*

            I’d have to check with my current primary care physician. They would never do that at the last one I was with. You came in or no note.

          2. Seeking Second Childhood*

            I hope you mean “just a common cold” because there is no “just flu”….people DIE of the flu. We’ve been incredibly lucky the last decades. I’m glad the scares over H1N1 (mostly) fizzled out. I’m the youngest kid of a youngest kid and in my 50s…so i heard first hand about the Spanise Flu of 1918. People died within HOURS of first exposure. More people died of it that winter than in the entire WWI fighting.

    13. kittymommy*

      My company has it as well. They also have where if you call in sick next to a holiday (think calling in Friday when we have the following Monday off for Christmas) you need a note if you want holiday pay for the Monday (this actually doesn’t affect the sick leave itself). I don’t know, maybe because most everyplace I’ve worked at has something similar, it seems fine to me.

    14. Ciara Amberlie*

      I think three days is common, but in my opinion, it’s a bit short.

      I’d say after a week, requesting a note is reasonable. But a bad cold can easily take you out for three plus days and, like you say, going to the doctor for it would be a complete waste of time.

      If you’re in an environment where lots of people might abuse the sickness policy, then I can maybe see an employer wanting to see proof a bit earlier. But really, companies should trust their employees not to game the system. If they don’t then they need to ask themselves why they’re employing people that they don’t trust (or why their company might be pushing people to lie about sickness, e.g. denying vacation requests at the last minute).

      1. Auntie Social*

        But I think the “three days and a note” means that someone in the past has already gamed the system. My old boss ran into one of his “sick” paralegals—-in Vegas.

        1. Ciara Amberlie*

          True. But the last bit of my second paragraph still stands. If it was just one person (or a handful) taking advantage, then discipline that person, there is no need to punish good employees! And if it’s a systematic problem, the company should delve a little deeper into why that is, and try to fix that first. Because most people don’t actually want to scam their employer out of sick time (that is my personal experience, others may disagree).

    15. Bostonian*

      My previous company had this policy, and it annoyed the hell out of me (for all the reasons you stated). I also never had to actually use it (in the 8 years I was there), but that’s probably because I would just go in the 3rd day to avoid having to go to the doctor (it’s hard to remember for certain).

      So, it probably is common, but I don’t think it’s wise.

    16. ThankYouRoman*

      Our policy is we “may request” a doctor’s note after 3days but it’s discretionary. It’s for those people who call in sick and show up on Instagram partying kind of stuff.

      It’s actually part of the state sick leave law as well.

    17. I'm A Little Teapot*

      All I know is, I’ve had multiple doctors tell me they hate that policy, which tells me that it should not exist.

    18. WellRed*

      Annoying and infantilizing and inconvenient. I am honestly surprised at all the comments about how common it is. I guess I have been lucky with my employers.

    19. Gaia*

      Not even a little reasonable with the RARE exception of: you might still be contagious and there are very real concerns around this (like you work with immune-compromised populations).

      1. Anon412*

        I would say a policy like this is equally as likely to backfire and make someone go back to work on the fourth day because they don’t want to be bothered with going to the doctor. (I don’t work with immune-compromised populations, FWIW.)

        I’m surprised at how many people go back to work even when they feel bad. It’s kind of funny that my workplace has this policy, as they are also very encouraging of using sick time. As in, “We don’t you want you here, because we don’t want to get sick!” My manager has sent people home before. But this is a company wide HR thing, so.

    20. Hiring Mgr*

      Personally, i think it’s unreasonable for employers to treat adults like schoolchildren, but apparently this is not uncommon

    21. Middle School Teacher*

      Its a bit annoying but for us it’s part of proving you are either healthy enough to come back, or sick enough to stay out, for a few reasons: in a lot of boards, if a teacher is out for more than three days straight, they are no longer required to make sub plans; and also, after we use all our sick days, we go automatically into short term disability. It’s annoying and I hate we have to pay for it but I can see why we have to get a sick note.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        It’s worse where I work. New employees can’t take sick time until they’ve been here three months–except that recent hires are being told it’s *six* months. Come on, who goes six months without at least getting the sniffles or a bug?

        1. Middle School Teacher*

          That seems pretty ridiculous. I’d be mad if I was told no sick leave for six months.

    22. Where’s my coffee?*

      For a single day it’s unreasonable. For greater than 3 days it’s reasonable—this isn’t arbitrary as much as it is a recognition that the condition may be moving into FMLA territory.

    23. Former Retail Manager*

      I work for the feds and this is how our policy is written, but it leaves it up to the manager. (i.e. the manager may require a note). When I worked in private enterprise previously, the policy was the same. More than 3 days = note required, but I never had a supervisor enforce it unless they believed someone was abusing it.

    25. Becky*

      I would consider being sick 3 or more days something more serious, highly impactful to your health or possibly contagious and would see requiring a doctor’s note not to prove you were sick but to prove you are healthy enough to return to work and are not contagious or likely to spread the sickness around.

    26. Saph*

      My company has the same policy. Out for 3 or more days, you need a dr’s note. Our insurance company has a mychart website that we can use for various reasons. I’ve used it to obtain a dr’s note before and it cost me nothing. It might be worth checking out.

    27. AnonForThis*

      My company has this policy and they explicitly say it’s because if you’ve been out for three solid days, they want to (1) make sure you’re ok for work and (2) talk to you about FMLA or other benefits you might qualify for based on your illness.

    28. tangerineRose*

      It’s annoying, but it’s not uncommon. Seems like a waste of your time and energy and a waste of the doctor’s time too.

      Another option might be going to work on the 3rd day and being clearly so miserable that they send you home – it might be quicker too.

    29. Someone Else*

      Requesting it for multiple consecutive days seems very reasonable to me. My company policy is they “may” request a note for absences of more than 3 days, but they do not require one in that case.
      If your company had this policy for any sick leave, that would not be reasonable, but for 3 days I think you are being overly sensitive.

    30. MissDisplaced*

      I think my employer requires a doctor note only at 5 days, which is pretty reasonable. 3 seems a little short to me, but I guess it depends on the job/field/industry.

    31. LGC*

      So that’s my org’s policy. And I’ve always thought of it as…more like proving you’re healthy enough to work.

      It is a little onerous, I’ll admit. But I can see my org’s side of things – if you’re sick enough to be out for three days, we’re assuming you were pretty sick. I’ve never been hit with that myself but it’s something I worry about a little.

    32. IndoorCat*

      One reason I dislike these policies is, what if they can tell from the type of doctor the nature of your illness? Some illnesses are much more stigmatized than others, or simply more private for cultural reasons. I wouldn’t want my employer knowing I needed to see a psychiatrist or a gynecologist unexpectedly, for example. But, those are the people I’d see if I had a sudden serious mental health crisis or genital problems that lasted for 3+ days; I wouldn’t go to my primary care physician.

      My current employer doesn’t have this policy, fortunately, but I would definitely worry that a nosy employer would Google the doctor’s name or the office, and then it would be obvious. To the point that I worry, hypothetically, that I would risk my own health by pushing myself to go into work when I shouldn’t, or choose to go to an ER at a generic hospital when actually my regular specialist doctor would be a wiser choice, to avoid getting “found out.”

      Part of this is on me, but really, it’s not any of a manager’s business, especially if an employee generally uses sick leave infrequently and is responsible with getting all their work done.

  15. Stuck in the same place.*

    Is the only way to move up, to want to manage people?

    I’m feeling “stuck.” I got the promotion that I wanted, from Teapot Coordinator to Senior Teapot Coordinator – they agreed to switch my title because I had been Teapot Coordinator for a few years, and I asked for the switch. I don’t know why, when it was announced, I was more “meh” and “ho hum” about it than excited, although I did tell some people in my life. I love my job and the people I work with. Some have been here for decades and others are approaching a decade here and I don’t want to leave either, I love it here.

    But I feel like others are “moving upwards and onwards” and here I am. My old coworkers who held the same title as me Llama Groomers Incorporated are now Managers and Senior Managers at other companies, so they’ve moved up and on and more than likely, have those salaries to show for it.

    1. Mimmy*

      I worry about the same thing. I am not at all interested in–or comfortable with–managing people, but that seems to be involved in many professional-level positions :/

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Companies need highly skilled individual contributors so if you prefer that just keep advocating for title bumps and raises for yourself. I had to do that (unsuccessfully) at OldJob but NewJob realizes that I like to play with things so they will shoot over a few things here and there they are struggling with or just don’t have the bandwidth for and I figure it out. I get get increased knowledge and exposure and they get a finished product. I’ve gotten 2 significant raises and title bumps since I started here for the contributions I’ve already made (as opposed to “now you have to do this too”).
      Meanwhile the other 2 coworkers closest to my level were made supervisors recently. At first I was a bit bummed that they didn’t consider me for that level but then I realized all the shit I don’t have to deal with and got really happy with my title bump and raise.

    3. drpuma*

      Maybe it would be helpful to define what you mean by “moving up.” You mention title, salary, managing people. What’s the most important to you? If you are just looking for a salary increase, depending on your industry and skillset you may be able to find it by acting as a one-person freelance shop. But that still involves some client wrangling. Again, it depends on what’s most important to you.

    4. ThankYouRoman*

      Well I’ve always moved into spots that are small enough I’m managing myself. So it depends on company size in that regard. I’ve only ever had to manage people once and I’m paid more as a lone wolf who’s just my own department and an advisor to the big boss.

    5. HBucket*

      if you feel stuck, what will it take to get unstuck? And don’t think of it in terms of what you see other people at other companies doing. Think of it in terms of your happiness, quality of life….

      1. OP for this Question*

        The financial capability to live without roommates is a big one. While I love my roommate, boy do I wish to live alone, even if it’s a smaller space. But studios start at $1,700+ in this area and there’s no way I will be paying that, unless I make way more money. I have been given good raises here but I feel like it still won’t be enough because my rent keeps going up every time my lease is up (I expect this, I am just stating a fact) so any extra “raises” I get goes to rent.

        I know the whole “don’t compare yourself to others” but I really can’t help it, when others are moving upwards and onwards, even if I don’t want to do what they’re doing. Like Old Coworker, “Annie” who is now a Senior Manager at Different Llama Company. Annie was promoted to Senior Llama Coordinator 4+ years ago at our old job and I JUST got promoted to “Senior Coordinator” at Teapots Inc.

        1. HBucket*

          I’m sorry. I hope my original response didn’t come off as cold. I just have really only recently learned that the way for me to figure out what to do (in any situation) is to first remove the emotion. So if it’s money (and that’s not a bad thing), I guess the questions are:
          1) Is there any chance to move up at the speed you would like with current employer?
          2) Is there another employer where you might be able to move faster?
          3) Is more education/training worthwhile to get you where you want to be?
          4) If all else fails, can you move a little further out to get better rent? (I feel you… I am in DC)

          1. OP for this Question*

            I don’t think it sounded cold at all! I think it was a good question to ask someone who is stuck, but the money part is the first step. I know others my age and even people who are younger than I am who make way more $ than me and are living alone/doing other things. To answer your questions,

            1 – No, it is a small company. There’s only a handful of us (less than 10 people)
            2 – Definitely, especially since I work for a highly regarded company in this industry. But I don’t want to switch jobs. Salary isn’t what I want here but everything else pretty much is (drama free, best coworkers and boss, good hours, enjoyable work, great clients)
            3 – Sure, some people have a masters in this field but it’s not a requirement. I also don’t want to go back to school.
            4 – I am also living in the DMV area. For what I have in terms of space, I actually pay a reasonable rent, which is the crazy part. My part in our 2 bed/2 bath is $1,410 which includes all utilities except internet. This amount also includes garage parking (there is no option for not having a parking space because street parking in the area where I live is 2 hours only on weekdays. I don’t always drive to work.)

    6. Toys in the attic*

      Ugh. I’m in the same boat. I love training, teaching and mentoring, but I’m not sure I would like/be good at other aspects of being a manager. There is no career progression in my role past “senior” that doesn’t involve management, but I think the department is doing some soul-searching on having a career ladder for individual contributors because there are way too many of us to all have a direct report eventually.

    7. NW Mossy*

      It depends a lot on the company whether or not you need to manage people to move beyond a certain level. Different places handle it differently, and it’s not always obvious from the outside.

      At my company, we have high-level individual contributor roles that are on a similar pay scale to manager and director roles. They’re great roles and a critical way to keep experienced high performers who don’t want to manage, but they are very few in number – think less than ten in a division of almost 400 people. By contrast, manager and director jobs are a lot more plentiful, so most people who want more pay and advancement take that path.

      Personally, I ended up doing a bit of both. I maxed out in the individual contributor job family I was in, so I applied out to one of these rare-as-hen’s-teeth jobs and got it. I ended up pivoting from that job into management a couple of years later when the right opportunity came along, and I’ve been doing that since. It was a slower path than going straight to management, but ultimately, the detour meant that I was both more capable and more interested in managing by the time I got there.

    8. Sleepytime Tea*

      No, going into management is not the only way to move up, in terms of responsibility and salary, if that’s what you’re asking. But it also depends on your industry and job to a certain extent. So for example, I’m a teapot analyst. I started out in finance, worked in revenue, moved up to senior, and now I’m on an IT team. Each move was an increase in salary and responsibility. There is a ton that can be done in the analyst world and so many directions it can go. I have zero desire to go into management (at least right now), but that hasn’t held me back from finding higher level jobs. My current job title isn’t “senior” like my previous position, but it’s actually much more responsibility and interesting work because of the department I’m in.

      So it does depend on how narrow your field is and how specific you experience is to an industry. I recommend just going online and searching jobs in your realm. See what’s out there and what jobs with your experience, or at least some of your experience, are going for salary-wise. That can give you an idea of what experience you might need to get next to move up or what other opportunities there are. If you’re in a really specific industry or type of work though, yes, management may indeed be your only option for moving up. Or it could be that there’s not much room to move up in your specific organization and you need to start looking outside of it.

    9. Becky*

      I am finding more and more I really don’t want to manage people. I know I have significant weaknesses in that area and though I could improve them I just don’t enjoy or want to manage people. I’m actually actively looking into process and product management which is more my area of interest.

  16. A. Ham*

    Looking for some recommendations for desk organization supplies.
    They recently reconfigured my cube and now I have a lot more room (especially desk space) and have to re-think how I organize the stuff on my desk. Also- in reconfiguring, I lost my magnet board that used to be part of our standard cube setup, but I’ve been approved to order a new one.
    So, what are your favorite desk organization supplies? And do you have a magnet (or cork) board that you really like? I like stuff with a little design personality, but nothing totally OTT.

    1. ThankYouRoman*

      I have dreams of a magnet board. It’s on my list for when we move locations. Right now my walls are my cork board.

      I like things with compartments. I also prefer L shaped filing systems to the evil outdated wire racks.

    2. drpuma*

      I got some cute printed file folders from a teachers’ supplies website for half the cost of printed folders at stationery stores. Enjoy and get creative about where you shop.

    3. School Inclusion Specialist*

      I really like the organizers from Poppin
      Fun colors and the different pieces fit together well.

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      I’m an “out of sight, out of mind” person so when I have physical files to deal with, I rely heavily on desktop trays and sorters. The configuration varies depending on the job, but I usually opt for the black wire mesh because it looks a little more polished than plastic and looks nicer longer than acrylic.

      I also had this super sturdy shelf thing that hung on my cube wall so that I could get my binders and things up and out of the way and keep my desk surface clear for spreading out papers and projects.

      I always keep my phone to the left of my monitors because I hold the phone with my left shoulder if I’m not using a headset.

  17. Nervous Accountant*

    Simple misunderstanding or do I need to shift my mindset or something here? I always get good advice here, esp things that help me change my mindset.

    Yesterday, I went into an rage (and by rage I mean I was sitting with a frowny grumpy face at my desk for an hour while I worked) b/c I was left out o f a meeting I should have been in. I cooled down, and asked the mgr who held it why I wasn’t included and it turned out to be a simple misunderstanding.

    I got upset b/c this was one of the mgrs I’d had issues with in the past. (I had told my mgr and he said we can sit and talk it out…things got better so I dropped it and the talk didn’t happen). I thought it was just one more example in a list of behavior, hence my frustration.

    Old me would have felt silly for being so upset but now I also kind of dont’ feel silly for being upset. Ok, he gets a pass on this specific example , but I still constantly get the sense that “I dont’ see you as a competent, professional valuable member of the team.”

    I keep my head down and do my work, help out my team however I can and stopped being bothered about someone respecting me or not. But this legit felt like going 6 steps back.

    Tbh I’ve never brought it up to him face to face b/c I’m not confrontational and I’m scared of crying. I hate this about myself. I don’t know if this is even something worth having a conversation about.

    1. Psyche*

      Do you think that he was lying about it being a misunderstanding/oversight? If so then maybe you should keep a log of the things that make you feel like this manager doesn’t respect you and then have a conversation about it or go to someone you trust at the company for advice on how to handle it. If you do believe him, then still keep that list but don’t include this on it. You may be at BEC stage which makes even minor slights seem egregious. That is why it might be helpful to write things down, take a step back and evaluate that list. It can help show if there is actually a pattern and all the little things are building up or it could help you see that it isn’t as bad as it felt in the moment.

    2. Murphy*

      Ha, one of the things I’m mad about today is that my boss said he wanted to get me involved in a new huge project from the beginning…and then forgot to invite me to the first meeting. :-/ Not the first time he’s done this, and probably won’t be the last, so I can relate.

      I think you’re justified in being upset, but I’m not sure there’s much you can do about it.

    3. Tara S.*

      That’s super frustrating. My manager gives me great mentoring and has expressed how happy he is with my work, but he still leaves me off staff emails (accidentally, I later confirm) or misspells my name in email. It feels disrespectful and like it should be a sign of something (am I unmemorable in a way that’s affecting my job?), but I try to focus on the positive aspect of our work relationship and take his feedback at face value. “Do not assign to malice what can be contributed to ignorance” something something. I hope things turn up for you soon.

    4. HBucket*

      I had something similar happen a couple years ago. I do not have a poker face so my boss knew I was bent about something. Fortunately, she approached me and i told her and she apologized profusely and figured out a way that it didn’t happen again. Perhaps you should approach the manager. They may think you’re invited and wonder why you don’t show??

      1. HBucket*

        P.S. I started tearing up when talking to her about it (because I cry at only inopportune moments!) so just breathe and try to hold the tears in.

    5. Sleepytime Tea*

      Maybe I’m shameless, but I have crashed meetings that I know I should be a part of. Not literally show up uninvited without telling anyone, but if I learn about it ahead of time I just reach out to the organizer and ask if it would be useful for me to be there and explain why I think I should participate. Seriously, sometimes it slips people’s minds even when it seems obvious.

      Example 1: A meeting where they were mapping out the flow from manufacturing to sales of a product. I was on the pricing team. They COMPLETELY FORGOT TO PRICE THE PRODUCT in the flow. That’s a meeting I learned of maybe a day or two ahead of time and just pinged the person holding it, whom I’d never even heard of, and said that my team handles pricing approvals and putting the product in the ordering system, and would it be useful if I attended? (Yes.)

      Example 2: Meeting about deploying a new system to a team that my team trains. Did they think about who was going to train that team on the new system? Nope, didn’t occur to them. Again, no one I’d met before, but reached out and suggested that perhaps a representative from the training team should attend so we could find out what they might need in deployment. (They were thrilled because yes, they forgot, and yes, they needed training. Duh.)

      1. tangerineRose*

        “if I learn about it ahead of time I just reach out to the organizer and ask if it would be useful for me to be there and explain why I think I should participate. ” – excellent idea.

    6. Meteor*

      It may help to try to keep the perspective that work simply isn’t personal. It sounds like you took this very personally (“frowny grumpy face for an hour”, “bothered about someone respecting me or not”).
      Sometimes team structures and (who’s an important attendee) can be difficult to understand for someone on a different team. Or perhaps this person was just scatterbrained when they put the meeting together. If you have good documentation of several other, worse instances of “lack of respect” from this person, perhaps it is worth another discussion with your manager. But it’s really likely that this isn’t a personal slight at all.

    7. Former Retail Manager*

      Mmm….a couple of options IMO, neither of which really matter if this was a legitimate oversight or deliberate snub.

      1) This person may never see you has a competent member of the team that should be valued and respected. And you just have to accept that, do the best work you can do, and hopefully prove him wrong, if you haven’t already.

      2) You say the sit-down meeting to hash out the issues between the 2 of you never happened because he began behaving differently. I’d give it another month or so (time to see if he’s really changed his tune or not) and if other instances occur, then I’d have the sit-down. It will be hard, but I’d make every effort to keep the discussion factual (take notes ahead of time listing specific instances you want to address with him), and not get emotional, and see if you can really get to the bottom of this person’s issue with you and see how you two can move forward and work together. (Or it might illuminate the fact that you can’t ever work together well, but it doesn’t sound unsalvageable based on what you’ve said today. I don’t know the backstory though.)

      For now, I’d give them the benefit of the doubt and wait to see how he interacts with you in the future.

    8. ..Kat..*

      You have said that this manager (and the other one giving you problems) is male. Are you female? When considering the past history in past posts, (if you are female) this appears to be more gender based harassment – which is illegal in the USA. Given this manager’s past behavior, I would consider it more harassment and at least report it to your manager. Have you reported this stuff to HR? Have you considered filing a complaint with your state’s labor department?

      I hope you have been keeping a log about these incidents. If not, start now and include as many past incidents as you can remember. Don’t put this log on your work computer. Do keep a copy at home.

    9. BluntBunny*

      I would ask for meeting minutes and slides if there were any and see if there anything we need to catch up on. I think a change of mindset might be in order depending on what the meeting was about was it part of a regular monthly meeting where you just get updates which you could get another time or really could be done over email, or was it an opportunity to meet other people that’s not going to come round again. I think what the consequences of not being invited is important rather than just being left out. Something you could do is contribute more to agenda items say I would like to give an update on X please add me to the agenda or at the end of the meetings where it’s AOB bring up what you feel is relevant. By taking on a more active role in meetings the team as well as your manager will remember you and what insight you bring.

  18. The Other Dawn*

    Anyone have a good resource for finding salary information on information systems security officer positions? This position is in the aerospace industry rather than banking, so I’m having a hard time finding what I’m looking for. The position appears to be more on the side of document and systems security rather than pure cyber security, and includes awareness training, preparing for and leading internal/external audits (point person), system maintenance and audits, certification and accreditation of computer systems and creation and implementation of SOPs. It would be working under information systems security manager. In the banking world, where I am now, the officer position would usually be considered the higher position, so looking for salaries for the typical officer position doesn’t really translate I don’t think.

    2. Elle*

      You might not be able to get that specific. But try going to Glassdoor and Indeed and looking under companies, rather than job descriptions. For instance, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, GE, Pratt & Whitney, Rolls Royce, Raytheon. Then sort by IT and security positions and see what comes up. I believe that kind of job is pretty industry specific.

  19. Psyched Out in the South*

    Finally got over my cover letter nerves and fired off several applications!

    I applied to two similar positions at a company earlier this month, and it turns out I will be in their city for a couple days in two weeks. Would it be appropriate to reach out to a recruiter to let them know I will be in town those days and would be available to talk if they think I’m a good fit? Trying to stay out of gumption territory, but also save my PTO.

    1. Psyche*

      I wouldn’t. If they have not reached out to you to invite you to an interview it would probably come across as presumptuous. If they reach out and offer a phone interview you could ask if they would prefer in person while you are in the city, but that is as far as I would go.

    2. ThankYouRoman*

      Have you had any contact since the applications were submitted?

      I ask because when I was moving cities, I made sure to let people know if I were in town but only if we had established interest. Such as a phone screening or email dialog chain. That worked in my favor each time.

      However if you haven’t had a nibble on your bait, you’re pushing too far into presumptuous territory.

  20. Anon From Here*

    Funny story this week at work: I had to take some paperwork to a manager I don’t usually interact with, and whom I don’t directly report to. His child, maybe age 8, was in the office with him, because of a well-baby appointment later that day. I handed over the paperwork and said something pleasant like, “Hey, these new interns get younger every year, right?” After the manager signed the paperwork, he handed it back to me. As I was turning to go, he said, “Thanks, sweetie!”

    It didn’t even register to my ears until I was through the door. I’ve been laughing about it all week. It was very, very clearly just a no-thought slip of the tongue. I think his brain must have been thinking, “Offspring, myself, and woman in office equals woman must be wife.” By the time I recognized what he’d said it was too late to go back, and it would have changed it from funny to awkward and unnecessary confrontation.

      1. Anon From Here*

        When I just kept walking away and ignored the term of endearment, I think I helped preserve everybody’s dignity. Maybe he’ll post about it the next time a “tell your cringe story” thread comes up!

    3. Not In NYC Any More*

      Oh wow. That just brought back a cringe-worthy moment. I’ve been on the the manager side. Was staying with son’s family complete with grandchildren while meeting with clients in his city. How do I speak to grandchildren? “Thank you, honey.” or “Do you want to play catch, honey?” or “Time for bed, honey.” So, when leaving big client’s office, it just seemed natural to say, “Glad we had time to meet, honey. I’ll get back to you with a proposal next week.” I just kept walking.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      Last month I closed a phone call with one of the big companies I regulate (you’ve probably ridden on one of the airplanes made here) with, “Love you” and hung up.

      I immediately called her back – she was still laughing.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I said something very similar to my manager few years. I’d been fending off unwanted family phone calls…three or four phone calls ending “Okay love you bye.”
        And yep. I said that to my manager. Luckily she thought it was the funniest thing to happen all week.

    5. Penny Hartz*

      Back in my rock n’ roll journalist/editor days, I got a call at the office offering us an interview with a performer. Fairly quickly into the conversation, the promo guy and I realized we had worked together at a record label a few years earlier, so we ended up reminiscing, catching up, etc.–it was a much friendlier phone call than most.
      Since it was such a comfortable phone call, my brain must have gone to “talking to hubby or mom,” so the last thing I said to the guy before I hung up was “Love you!” A coworker who was in the room at the time wasted no time in 1) laughing his butt off, and 2) telling me I just told random NY promo guy I loved them.
      Called him back, got his voicemail, laughingly apologized. Had a good chuckle a few days later when he called back.

      1. Jen in Oregon*

        My husband drops me off at the train every morning, and every morning I lean in to kiss him goodbye then tell him I Love You as I shut the car door. A few weeks ago my boss dropped me off at the train station at the end of the day and I totally started leaning in to kiss her! She didn’t realize what I was doing at first and I probably could’ve passed it off as leaning in to open the door or grab my stuff but instead I started laughing hysterically and blurted out what I almost did because I knew she’d think it was hilarious. I told her our morning ritual, so we exchanged Love Ya!s as I got out of the car. This is not a habit we’ve continued, but it was a fun, funny anecdote (I mean, we are a laid-back, casual group, especially for finance, but we’re not *that* laid-back and casual!)

  21. Nervous Accountant*

    It’s been an Interesting week. Halloween party today, so, open bar. Which I’ll need.. lol.

    Bunch of new hires started. Seems like a pretty decent bunch. So since August, it’s about 20 people, 2 of whom are gone.

    The first day I had a few sessions with them, and they were 5-20 minutes late. The rest of the week seemed to go smoother, I was super annoyed at the lateness, but apparently I was being too rigid about this

    One guy was on his phone all morning, like pacing back and forth in the lobby, and then texting all day long. I brought it up to his team leader, but the guy resigned the same day. oh well.

    This probably needs to be a post on its own but I’m nesting it here….it hasn’t reached that level yet I guess:

    I’m having issues with my “new” guy, the one who sits next to me (he’s from the first batch in august). He acknowledges I’m his supervisor but argues or ignores everything I say; if I tell him “well you shouldn’t be so abrasive with clients” he just gets very negative. I tell him to keep his phone on silent (seriously, that thing beeps/rings 12 times a day), *silence*

    I used to defer to my mgr on the issues I’m finding with him, but he wants me to take a more active role in training and stuff, including stuff like this. Now, this guy does have valid points sometimes, but there are things that I’m just like….can you pls stop fighting me on every damn thing. Im not gonna lie, I’m doubtful b/c I think my ego is playing a role in this. so, yeah , basically I’m shit on by both those above me and below me. Yay.

    1. Helpful*

      From this and your above post, and many others, it sounds like you are the common denominator. It may benefit you to receive some professional coaching in order to more specifically identify the patterns in place, the way you interact with others, etc. We can’t see those things via this forum but a professional could.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Thank you, That’s a good idea. Where would I even start? I don’t think my company has this. I can talk confidently with my own manager and the others that are peers. They are nice and helpful but I feel like… they’re the types tha can make anything and everything sound good . No secret that I have issues with ego, self esteem etc.

        1. Ali G*

          Dale Carnegie online has lots of good training tools. Look into new manager training or executive coaching (not sure which would be more appropriate for your level). If you feel you need one-on-one help, look for executive coaches in your area. You don’t have to be an “executive” per se, it’s more about learning how to navigate staffing issues, peers, etc.

        2. ThankYouRoman*

          They have professional development seminars and groups to help bolster your confidence and communication style. They’re relatively low cost depending on the setup, as in they range from 100-500 dollars and I’m comparing the cost to hiring a personal coach or taking a lengthy class! Still may be too steep price wise if you’re footing the bill but may be cheap enough to get your company to foot the bill.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        I can see that I am the common denominator here. It’s taken me a lot of time and effort to shift the mindset of always reporting to someone to having someone report to me (while still reporting to others. I’m not secretive (here at least) about the fact that my insecurities really come in to play and make me doubtful of my every move. I know everyone tends to be insecure from time to time, I just wish I wasn’t so insecure. I have no reason to be.

            1. thepinkleprechaun*

              Have you ever been to counseling? I have issues with anxiety, not quite the same as insecurity but they both certainly makes your thought processes unhelpful (to put it mildly). I would highly recommend seeing an experienced cognitive behavioral therapist, they can give you real tools and strategies to sort of retrain your brain on how to react in interpersonal situations.

    2. ThankYouRoman*

      You need to be firm and not voice things in a questioning tone.

      “Turn your phone on silent.” not “Would you mind turning the ringer off?” You’re the boss, you have to stop dancing around the subject.

      He’s arguing because it’s either worked for him or he sees cracks in your armor. Be as harsh with him as he is with clients if you need to prove your point.

      I stopped softening things that aren’t suggestions and then if there is pushback the response is “it wasn’t a suggestion. Turn your phone off.”

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yep. Also, “why are you arguing with me about this?” is a good phrase to keep in your pocket.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          Oooh, this is helpful! I did talk to my mgr today and he said I can talk to him, and lay it out in clear terms what can/will happen if he continues to be like this. Other people are noticing so it is a big deal. I guess I hesitate to argue back b/c when he does push back, he has perfectly valid reasons for doing so. I see where he’s coming from. But at the end of the day, there are certain things that need to be done a certain way, and being abrasive with clients or your supervisors isn’t something that flies in any company.

          I like this language here. I’m going to look through the archives.

          1. Auntie Social*

            The arguing tells me hes not listening. “And you need to understand why WE do it THIS way. There are great and good reasons why we do it this way. Do it this way.”

            1. ThankYouRoman*

              The arguing shows me he lacks maturity and respect for authority. He sounds like a child pushing back when you tell him to put his toys away.

          2. neverjaunty*

            There are no perfectly valid reasons to be abrasive to clients.

            Stop treating this like a debate. You are his boss.

            1. Nervous Accountant*

              Sorry I meant, valid reasons to push back against what we say. Not to clients. i am definitely not OK with him being abrasive with some of them.

    3. Cowgirl in hiding*

      You might use some of the wording Alison has suggested for other posts to deal with him talking back and arguing about what he should do; office manners, being negative as a new hire, listening when you are training him etc. Talk with your manager about how much wiggle room you have with him and see where you stand as his manager. If it continues, put him one PIP, some people if you write them up change and some don’t and decide to leave or are fired. AMA has tons of examples on how to talk to employees and make them feel like they aren’t being belittled but gets the point across. Good luck.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Talk to your boss about what consequences you can enforce. Then start using consequences if this keeps occurring.

    5. Texan at Heart*

      Here are a few phrases that have helped me in this area. (I haven’t seen your previous posts, so please forgive me if I’m duplicating!)

      I noticed you’ve been xxxxx. Help me understand why. Ok I completely get you’re reasoning. We do it by xxxx here because xxxx. If you find that doesn’t work, you might also address your need for xxxx by xxxx.

      I know you disagree with me, and I understand why. Right now, I really need you to give this a try my way. Let’s check back in xxxx days to see how is going.

      I asked you to xxxx. It’s really essential that it happens. What’s preventing it? or What can I do to help with making it a priority? Or (in the case of the cell phone) What’s your plan for addressing this immediately? We’re going to be forced to have a different kind of conversation (or begin looking at a PIP or a better fit for this role or whatever disciplinary thing) if this continues.

      And when it’s really essential: I understand we disagree about this. At this company, this is how we do things. It’s not really something we can change at this stage, and I need you to follow through on xxx. Thanks!

      When I was really struggling in this area, I also reached out to a therapist to deal with my own issues. It sounds like that may be a good option for you too. Good luck!

  22. NewCareerSwitch*

    Possible Career switch–advice/direction appreciated! I’m interested the possibility of corporate training/instructional design as mentioned by Monday’s 5 Letters OP #2 (https://www.askamanager.org/2018/10/former-coworkers-crashed-my-networking-party-using-a-fake-voice-in-an-interview-and-more.html)

    Those of you in this field, what certifications/education do you have? What does a typical week look life for you? Any great job titles or keywords to search that you learned with industry insider-knowledge? I’ve led trainings, webinars, etc and I really enjoy it–I’m thinking of looking for a position that would let me do it full time rather than just occasionally as the opportunities show up.

    Thanks Everyone!

    1. periwinkle*

      I’ve already posted some thoughts in the earlier thread started by Future Goggles.

      My company has professional instructors who can handle a wide range of topics and “amateurs” who hold other roles but share their expertise through teaching on their areas of technical expertise. The latter do get training on how to train, and most of our full-time instructors started off this way.

      And then there are the facilitators, who focus on facilitation and leading rather than teaching. Facilitators might lead executive workshops, train on non-technical topics (soft skills), facilitate all-team meetings or classes with multiple speakers, and otherwise keep discussions flowing while also keeping to the schedule and agenda.

      And then there are the instructional designers and other learning professionals who define performance issues, identify a knowledge gap, conduct learner and content analysis, determine appropriate learning solutions, and design/develop or oversee design/development.

      These are three separate skill areas. Some people do it all. Many specialize. What interests you?

      1. NewCareerSwitch*

        I saw, thank you! That comment must have been in moderation when I submitted mine. Looking at the three skill areas you outline, each are interesting–especially Instructing and Facilitating. I’ve done both, and as such I’m usually doing the ID work as well. Most organizations I’ve worked for/with aren’t large enough to have a separate team to do this, so I’ve worked to be able to handle each.

    2. Designing Woman*

      Hi, I’m an instructional designer! I work for a Fortune 5 company and I’ve been in my role for about 5 months. Before then, I worked with the ID team on a project basis; I was on a team that handled vendor relations for a certain ramp/sales period of the year, so during our sort of “off-season” we were utilized by other teams. I don’t have any ID-specific certifications. My degree is in professional writing, so I do think that experience and skill helped me catch on quickly to the part of the work that involves writing and summarizing ideas in an easy-to-understand way.

      When the job opened up it was because another designer left and I was already one of the helpers for the ID team. My 4 teammates came from various teams, including training delivery (facilitation), IT, and vendor support like myself.

      A typical week for me: a handful of meetings with stakeholders and subject matter experts, as well as my team. A majority of my time is independent and self-directed: I decide how much time to spend on X or Y project, deadlines are *usually* set relatively far out so I’m able to create my own plan for milestone goals and stuff. My team and I do spend time collaborating all the time; often that just consists of popping your head up or emailing the group and asking for another set of eyes on something. We’re usually all working on our own things, but often as parts of a larger thing we split up, like a new hire curriculum or an e-learning on YOY changes.

      I can’t really think of any keywords that you haven’t already identified (instructional design, training design, learning theory, ADDIE as mentioned above/below). I see that you do have some ID experience by virtue of being a trainer, which is great! I recognize that the route I took to my current role wasn’t exactly a straight line… the thing that really made my manager want me was the work she’d already seen me do for her, which I was able to do as a helper while in a different department entirely. So YMMV.

      It seems like it’s a growing field right now – I hope you can find something that works for you! Good luck!

      1. NewCareerSwitch*

        Thanks very much for your insight and response; much of this sounds like things I’m already doing on a much smaller scale when opportunities arise–though certainly not for a company at the Fortune 5 Level! I agree that this is a growing field, and that’s one of the reasons I’m interested in looking into it further.

    3. Forevanon*

      I also posted in the upthread topic! So glad there are lots of people interested in this field, because it benefits from having people with lots of different backgrounds and experience.

      As I told Future Goggles, I have no formal educational background in my field. I worked my way “up,” for lack of a better term, in the securities industry from sales assistant (read: admin assistant) to compliance, writing policies and procedures for a few years, and then I worked in oilfield services doing a variety of things, most recently on a change management project that morphed into an ID role, and when my contract with that company ended I decided to continue pursuing ID work, because I love it. I also have a natural affinity for technology and an aptitude for the technical, so I reinforced that wherever I could on my resume. Here’s what my work currently looks like, which is typical.

      I design, write, and develop content in a wide variety of “modalities” (that’s the current ID buzzword that just means how content is delivered to a student).

      Right now I am working on four different projects/courses in various stages of the development process that also cover a wide range of topics:

      In the planning stage: I am reviewing a five-week instructor-led course on a highly technical subject in preparation for its redesign. Today I had a meeting with our curriculum design manager (my boss), the instructor, and the SMEs for the subject in question. The course is a candidate for conversion to a “blended” delivery mode to reduce class time required (some content can potentially be delivered online via e-learning; much, by necessity, is conducted hands-on in a lab with an instructor). After today’s meeting I understand the challenges around this course, what needs to be delivered in person and why, and some other things I needed to know, so my next step is what I like to call “information architecture”: figuring out how to organize all the content, streamline it, generally make it nicer to look at, and package it in such a way that it can be delivered more efficiently while not overwhelming the students by condensing it too much.

      In the design phase: I am storyboarding an e-learning module on a very dry but safety-critical topic for advanced users. I’ll be creating graphics for this one as well as designing interactive components. The content
      in question is typically presented in tables. I’m developing more creative, engaging (well, hopefully, anyway) ways to present it. One example: there are safety “zones” that one has to understand, with concentric perimeters that require specific signage and specific training and protection to enter. I’ve made kind of an online diorama with the zones and a little dude in each one. The user interacts with these things to see the different signs, training requirements, and PPE. It demonstrates all of this using graphics, so what was previously about 20 slides of text content is now presented in a single interaction that is much easier to understand and remember.

      In the development stage: I have a wretched albatross of a project that I have spent the last four months converting from a 1,000 slide, 250-page script (basically a novel and a feature-length film worth of content) PowerPoint monstrosity into a clean, crisp, interactive course, divided into 9 20-minute modules. I hate this project with every atom of my being but the SME is absolutely thrilled with it! That is the only thing keeping me going at this point. I have another week and a half of this horrible thing where I will be creating the remainder of the interactive content and packaging it, recording the VO/audio (which I do myself), sending it out for peer-review by my colleagues and the SME, incorporating their feedback/critiques/fixing any bugs they find, then publishing it. And then hopefully I never have to look at it again.

      In peer-review: next week I am helping a colleague (who is less technically adept than I) with an e-learning course. I’ll be helping him map out some complicated branching logic, fix some interactive components that are misbehaving, and (he requested this specifically, lol) giving him feedback about where he can be more concise, because he is notoriously wordy. I’ll also be recording the female voice for his audio.

      A typical week for me could also include: going into the shop, safety googles and steel-toe caps on, to understand how something is physically done in a repair or manufacturing setting, teaching a classroom full of people from around the globe how to use VR technology, boning up on an engineering topic I know nothing about so I can discuss it intelligently with experts, writing scripts and lecture notes, creating graphics in Illustrator or enhancing crappy photos taken in a shop setting in Photoshop, animating text or objects in After Effects, recording voiceovers and/or editing audio, or helping my boss figure out how to fix a pivot table.

      It’s a super great job and I love it (but I still hate that project a lot).

      I am so very sorry for the ridiculously long post.

      1. NewCareerSwitch*

        Please don’t apologize for the length of this post–it was very helpful and informative. I’m technically inclined as well, but I don’t always share your affinity for technology. This is one of the areas I’ve already identified for my own self-development, so it was great to see you reinforce the importance of it to your work. Most all my ID thus far has centered on in-person learning (either by requirement or request) so navigating ENGAGING e-learning methods and practices will be a vital aspect of rounding out my skill set. Thank you so much for the insight, and good luck with that albatross of a project!

        1. Forevanon*

          I’m always glad to have an excuse to talk about my work. :P

          Don’t be discouraged if technology is not your strongest suit! I’m sort of the go-to geek on the team but most of the IDs I work with (it’s a big company so we have a large team, which is a new experience for me) are not as advanced … they can design really cool things but can’t always figure out the best way to implement it or figure out what’s wrong if it doesn’t work. Having said that, if you’re using one of the latest e-learning authoring suites, they are extremely user-friendly and it’s pretty easy to build interactive content. Definitely download some demos (they’re usually free for 30-60 days) and play with them if you’re interested. There are courses on Lynda that can help you with this also. (That’s where I learned!)

          I work on traditional instructor-led training, job aids, etc as well — in fact, this company relies heavily on workbooks, self-study guides, and other more traditional materials — but the majority of my workload lands in the e-learning realm because that’s where my strength is.

          In any case, the blended approach is the way most companies are headed. Nothing can take the place of hands-on, in-person delivery for practical training in my industry (basically, it would be like trying to go into the shop and work as an auto mechanic without ever having driven or seen anything but engineering drawings of a car). Online delivery for conceptual learning is less expensive both time- and money-wise, and generally more efficient, but many IDs haven’t figured out how to create interactive, and, yes, engaging learning experiences instead of linear, narrated PowerPoint presentations (although there are a lot of GREAT designers out there too). So even if you don’t create e-learning material, having a good understanding of both worlds (digital and traditional) and where each can serve a curriculum and budget best is probably the best position to be in to get a job in this field!

  23. ella*

    We have a keurig machine in my office, and my employer buys k-cups for us, both coffee and tea, which is very cool. Usually for coffee, they buy a box of “assorted” k-cups (light, medium, and dark roasts) and a separate box of decaf. Twice in the past month, someone has taken all of the light and medium k-cups out of the box, and replaced them with all dark roast. Like the number of k-cups in the box stays the same from one day to the next, but instead of 30 k-cups of assorted roasts, there will be 30 k-cups of all dark roast. What is happening?? Someone is squirreling away light and medium roast coffee, clearly, but where is all the dark roast coming from??

    Like, I’ll drink it, free coffee is free coffee, but I’m so confused about what is happening.

    1. BadWolf*

      Maybe someone got a giant box ‘o dark roast for a gift and hates it and figured this was a good way to trade in for light/medium?

      1. ella*

        Maybe! It’s the same brand of coffee, though, and it’s not a common retail brand like Starbucks or Dunkins, though it might be available at Costco. And why not just swap out the boxes? Why put all the dark roast in the assorted box? We’re already buying the biggest size that the roaster sells (because I just went to the roaster’s website and looked at their offerings because that’s how much this has gotten to me, haha).

        1. Anon Anon Anon*

          Maybe they also have an assorted box and they want the light and medium but not the dark roast. Maybe they have several assorted boxes, or buy them routinely. Hence the quantity.

      2. LCL*

        Ha ha, yeah. I buy the K cups for our office. I get them at Costco, and always get a single variety box. Quantities vary between 60-120 K cups per box. Most people here prefer the darker roast, I think your idea as to what is happening is right.

    2. Shelly*

      I’m not a coffee drinker (and have never used a keurig in my office) and I still think this is totally crazy. Is there another keurig in a different part of the building? I wonder if someone in that area is buying the same multi-packs but never using the dark roast/everyone prefers the light and medium. So strange

      1. ella*

        There is another keurig, but we all get the same supplies from the same person. But yeah. Maybe the upstairs only drinks light roast so they’re engaging in some supply redistribution.

      2. Joielle*

        I think this is the most likely! This whole issue is hilarious to me though, because I’d totally be doing the same thing… like this doesn’t REALLY affect me and I don’t ACTUALLY care, but WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE

    3. Tara S.*

      I remember a strongly worded email from my old non-profit job’s CEO that he had bought the assorted sweeteners in the kitchen for general use and whoever took all the Splenda packets had *better* put them back by tomorrow. Give people an inch and they’ll take a mile, but after the email rant the sugars came back, so…

    4. Cosette*

      I don’t know…. but I’ll take all the dark roast you can throw at me! Only, please don’t throw it at me!!

  24. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom

    Wakeen reads his emails out loud as he writes them. He also speaks to no one in general, narrating his day. It’s not great, overall. He talked several times one morning about how he’s getting his wife a gift certificate to a salon for her birthday today. Cause that’ll go over well. “Here, honey, for your birthday, change how you look!”

    Fergus was one the phone, and described someone as made for childbearing. I about got in trouble for the look I gave Violet, cause I already made her choke on her drink for something earlier.

    I had a woman call about an obit. I didn’t have it from the funeral home yet and she said while she had me on the phone, she had a question. Her husband passed away, and his name was spelled wrong. She wants it changed for genealogy purposes. Ok, fine. She then tells me he died two years ago. No dice. There’s no way for me to change that. I tell her I’m sorry, but there is not a way to do that. I am the one who would know. She says that’s fine. She goes to church with the publisher (GGB) and she’ll talk to him about it. So now I have that to look forward to. (In her defense, she phrased it like she thought someone else could fix it. They cannot.)

    Fergus had a very loud conversation in the very open room about where exactly on one’s person one could store illegal substances. (Horrifyingly, many places, if you were wondering.)

    My high hopes were for naught. Wakeen is not a great reporter or coworker. At the risk of sounding mean, he just isn’t that smart. Someone sitting in the back of the room called him, and he walked up to the lady sitting two desks away from him. In the other direction. She told him who asked him to come to their desk. He said ok, then sat back down at his desk. He had to be asked three more times to ‘come here’ before he finally understood.

    1. JanetM*

      Ai-yi. I don’t envy you (although I love the way you tell stories).

      For what it’s worth, though, my husband gave me a salon gift certificate / package certificate as a present once, and I loved it! Massage, facial, manicure/pedicure, lunch.

    2. Quill*

      To be totally fair about the gift certificate to the salon, his wife could be a devotee of maintaining a color she doesn’t naturally have, and cutting down on salon visits due to the cost.

      Or maybe she’s been talking about getting a new cut for a while.

    4. submerged tenths*

      tried to comment on your blog, but was defeated by the nosy intrusiveness of Mr. Google. So just want to say I appreciate your stories, please keep them up! Back in the previous century I, too, was a reporter in a small town newsroom. Sometimes I still miss the shenanigans.

    5. Alice Ulf*

      Was the obituary woman…asking if you could change the spelling of her late husband’s name in a newspaper published two years ago? I… What.

      Sure, let me just jump in the TARDIS, here…

      1. boo bot*

        I’m actually curious why this can’t be done! Obviously not in the print version of the newspaper, but I’m assuming she’s asking about having it corrected in the online version, so that if someone searches for her husband, they will be able to find his obituary.

        If the digital copy is still accessible, then why can’t the paper change the name and update the obit with a correction note, as they would for a more recent correction?

        All this is assuming that the issue is an actual misspelling, and not, “We discovered last year that we’re related to Engelbert Humperdinck, and we’ve all changed our names in his honor, and I want to include dear departed Joey, because he was such a fan of turn-of-the-century German opera.” If it’s the latter case, then hah!

        1. Bee's Knees*

          Yup. She was. She wanted to do it for genealogy, which I understand, but should have been on it two years ago. When something’s uploaded to our archives, it’s uploaded as a pdf. The only way to maybe do it would be to rebuild the entire paper. We’re digital in only the barest sense of the word. Also, lol.

        2. Alice Ulf*

          Hmm, I see your point. I was only thinking of physical, hard-copy archives, so that making any alteration probably wouldn’t be possible. If we’re talking online archives, that would be more of a “living” document, I guess.

  25. Kramerica Industries*

    I have an interview as a Technical Project Manager coming up. In the email confirmation, the HR rep said that there would be “technical and behavioural questions”. I’m currently a general project manager with a basic-intermediate knowledge of HTML/CSS, JavaScript, SQL. I looked over the job description and it said that those coding languages were “bonus assets”. Am I allowed to ask the HR rep if the “technical questions” will test me on hard coding skills? I’m not sure how hard I should be preparing.

    1. Sleepytime Tea*

      Unless there is a practical test or something that they are going to give you, then no, I don’t think I would ask this. You don’t generally get a preview of what the interview questions are going to be like. And even if you did ask if they are going to ask you about “hard coding skills” I don’t know how much prep you could really do, because that encompasses a crazy amount of information and they wouldn’t tell you exactly what areas they are going to ask you.

      In my experience, I have usually been asked things like “are you familiar with a spider schema” and so forth. They aren’t going to ask you to try and spout off by memory how you would code something verbatim. Well, if they did, that would be pretty ridiculous, especially considering it’s “bonus skills.” They would give you some sort of practical test if they really want to see how you code.

    2. Elle*

      I’ve found “technical” project management questions actually relate to project management skills – like right to left vs left to right scheduling, budget jargon like EAC /BAC/etc. And then they expect a general understanding of the product and the needs of the company, but certainly no actual coding skills required.

    3. Earthwalker*

      Perhaps instead of focusing on interview prep you could ask HR for a clear job description. In some companies a tech project manager manages a project team and communicates between them and stakeholders, but has enough tech background not to throw off discussions with comments like “you mentioned Java; what is that?” In other companies a tech project manager actually does the project – the design and coding, etc. – but is self driven enough to stay on track without someone to oversee his work and will manage communication with stakeholders.

    4. leukothea*

      When I interviewed for a technical project manager position last year, they were happy I had some experience with the software, but the interview was focused around project management as a discipline. They asked me the phases of a project, to define an “artifact,” and so on.

      I think that quite often, the technical parts can be picked up once you’re there if you’re reasonably bright and willing to learn. From that angle it might make sense to only ask PM questions and not truly technical questions. I don’t think many PM interviews would require a coding interview, for example, while many software roles do.

  26. Boo Hoo*

    Encountered this the other day and curious on your thoughts.

    My husband took off at 2:30 the other day to bring me to a doctors appointment he needed to be present at. This was the ONLY time available for months and I waited months to get this appointment which actually was fairly urgent and waiting has sent me to the ER once already. The day he put in the request, during a meeting with the whole team. boss mentioned “no doctors appointment takes 3 hours”. Husband was going to not go back in as by the time he would have got there, 45 min drive total back, he would be there for about 20-30 mins. He is not allowed to work past those hours. They lock the office down for security reasons (think insanely high level government security). Husband went back for the 20 mins due to his bosses comment. This bothered me however. His workplace very much encourages taking sick time for family illnesses or appointments as well as your own, so he did so. Driving to the appointment (I met him there), the time waiting, seeing the Dr, doing the test and the drive back was easily three hours. He left me a bit early when the test was done. I have numerous appointments coming up that will take this long. We do not live in an area where specialists are right around the corner. He will need to be there for many as he will have to administer some of these treatments for me, as well as some involving some level of sedation. I have ZERO family or friends here. I feel that boss saying this was a bit out of line as it easily discourages people to use their time for these appointments. He could of course use PTO, which we will if needed but I am a bit frustrated he cannot use the sick time as intended due to this comment. He rarely takes time off and has no performance issues at work, this will just be a few appointments for this issue. He works half days one day a week but sadly in this area almost every doctor only takes appointments until noon on Fridays (his half day). No idea why but it has been the case for every single appointment I have scheduled.

    Would you just take the sick time as needed? Just take the PTO? Discuss the need for some appointments with boss and ask him which he prefers? I think his comment was a bit out of line and just curious on others opinions? A doctors appointment in theory doesn’t usually take three hours but travel time it easily can.

    1. Temperance*

      Your husband should probably talk to HR about getting FMLA to be your caregiver. It sounds like your husband’s boss might be the type to make this into an issue.

      2. Sleepytime Tea*

        This. You can absolutely get intermittent FMLA for care of a family member, including attending their doctors appointments and transporting them.

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I currently come into work 2-3 hours late one day a week. I just started a new job a couple of months ago, and I’d worked this out with HR prior to accepting the offer. I alerted my new boss on the first day. Three weeks in, he told me I was no longer allowed to come in more than an hour late and that it could be at most once a month. So I sent an email explaining my situation, that I’d cleared it with HR beforehand, etc. I also clearly but politely wrote that I would be taking that time off and asked whether he’d like me to stay late that weekday or whether he’d like that time to be unpaid. He chose option 1, and things are stable.

      So this is a longwinded way of saying that I’d have your husband send an email then go to HR if the situation is not resolved. And possibly job search.

      1. Boo Hoo*

        Job search sadly won’t happen. He is happy enough at his job but him staying will get him up to his next pay grade which will facilitate our out of state move. The way it works, if he left now he would start over to get to the next pay grade. So short of a great job outside of government (which won’t happen where we currently are but he is keeping his eyes open in the location we are intending to move to) we will be here until he reaches his level 12. He has put in so many years in the Air Force and now out of it that he doesn’t want to lose that last bump, which I totally understand. Understand I may be explaining this a bit wrong as I don’t know exactly how it works, this is just me playing the telephone game with what he explained to me. Plus we are trying to keep my stepson in the same school until he graduates in two years, which is just about exactly when husband will get that promotion.

        To note, I would LOVE to move sooner, this place SUCKKKSSS!!! I support this though as it is temporary and benefits us all in the long run.

    3. BadWolf*

      First, it’s not cool for the boss to declare that he knows how long a doctor’s appointment can take. Even a “quick” appointment can not start for awhile turning 20 minutes into an hour. Then sometimes they can get you in right away for a test (blood draw, whatever). Frankly, I always assume I’m sinking a couple hours into any appointment.

      At my job, we’re salaried exempt and can work from home as needed, so assuming you were doing fine at your job, I’d expect my manager to say, “Take the time you need, keep the team up to date when you’ll be out.”

      In your husband’s job, it sound like he’ll need help from HR or manager the next boss up to wrangle the leave time.

      1. BadWolf*

        ” manager the next boss up to wrangle the leave time.” This garble was supposed to mean, he might need help from his boss’s boss (depending on the company structure/norms).

      2. Boo Hoo*

        Luckily in the somewhat near future he will be able to work from home one day a week so we can schedule appointments on that day. That will help. I truly cannot comprehend doctors limited availability here. I have never waited so long for basic appointments (think months). I called once for a non stop sinus infection and was told they could see me 4 months later. Pretty sure I’ll be better by then.

    4. WellRed*

      If I have an appt at an inconvenient time, I take the half day. Ad frankly, some appts could take 3 hours, who’s his boss to say otherwise?

    5. ArtK*

      If not a red flag, this is at least a yellow flag. They’re asking for a commitment from you before they make an offer. It’s certainly reasonable to discuss a start date, but asking for a commitment is too much, IMO.

    6. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’ve been at specialist eye doctor appointments that easily take 2 hours (check in, wait, see someone, wait, see someone else, wait, take a photo, wait, wait, see the first someone, check out), but since those are out of town, we just take the entire day. In other words, I think your spouse should just say that with travel time, it’s not really worth while to come back to work for less than a half hour, so yes, doctor appointments can take 3 hours or more.

    7. ThankYouRoman*

      What a prick move on the bosses part.

      I don’t think he needs to leave by any means. He needs to clear things with HR and start processes for FLMA so he’s got ducks in a row. I’m assuming it’s a large enough employer that the end all isn’t this dillweed boss. He should be able to schedule PTO without disclosing details to avoid this pipsqueak adding in nonsense like “you don’t need 3hrs for an appointment”

    8. anna green*

      Tons of doctor’s appointments take 3 hours! I don’t know what kind of luck this guy has had that he hasn’t spent more than 3 hours at a doctor’s office, but omg it’s extremely common, especially with specialists. There are places you have to wait 3 hours before being seen, much less driving there and the actual appointment. So, not that it’s super helpful, but he is way way off base.

    9. Imtheone*

      Lots of specialty doctor’s appointments take more than two hours. We’ve had some last four hours, plus travel time! Your husband’s boss needs to be clued in.

      In response to, “No doctors appointment takes three hours,” he needs to be politely told how long some of them take. If the appointment and then travel time to get back to work mean only twenty minutes at the office, it would make much more sense to do some working from home.

      1. Doc in a Box*

        Yeah, agree. I’m a subspecialist and see people in a 3 state region. My new patient visits are about 75 minutes of face-to-face time (my follow-ups range from 30-45 min depending on what issues we’re dealing with), and that doesn’t include checking in, getting vital signs taken, any lab work, checking out, travel time… A patient could easily spend 3 hours for an appointment.

        Government agencies can be really strict about hours, though. Intermittent FMLA is a good option here. Hope your health issues improve and your move goes well!

    10. nonegiven*

      I’d not just take the sick time but also call out the manager when he says something like that. Lots of appointments take that long or longer, especially if you have to travel. Maybe a quick 10 minute normal acute illness appointment of his own or a followup, within a mile of work, he could get back to the office within an hour. Spouses usually don’t need to go to those.

      Many people going to appointments with travel like that, will also shop and eat dinner in the other town while they are there, if they feel up to it.

    11. Dr. Anonymous*

      I think maybe your husband is overreacting to his boss’s uninformed comment. He should make sure his manager has an idea what’s up and get a real feel for if it’s is better to use FMLA. Your doctor would need to fill out the FMLA paperwork since your husband will be out for your illness. I do this for patients’ family members routinely.

    12. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Does his boss know the situation? Maybe he didn’t understand that he was taking you to a specialist appointment far away, for something you can’t do by yourself. The first step might be trying to gently remind the boss that this is not a simple routine appointment with the neighbourhood doctor.

  27. Jane*

    Is it normal for a company to start negotiating a start date before giving you a formal offer?

    I am in this situation now. This company has indicated that they are in the process of coming up with an offer, but I have to tell them my start date. I gave them a start date with the caveat that it was tentative, based on when we all came to an agreement. Now they are pushing back, implying that they can’t move forward with an offer until I commit to a start date, and also, they want a start date earlier than I proposed.

    They still haven’t even given me a salary hiring range, let along offered me a salary. I want to write back “I feel uncomfortable agreeing to a start date before agreeing to take the job,” but obviously I can’t say it like that.

    What do I say to them?

    1. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      Your response to the offer letter is still 1) yes 2) no or 3) negotiate. None of those are really relevant to the start date, except that if you take several days back and forth negotiating it’s going to cut into your notice period.

      I would say that assuming you can get all the details hammered out by X date, it’s fine to say that IF you accept the offer, you can start on Y date. And start date is probably one of the things you want to do your best to be a little flexible on, because it’s a pretty low-cost way to build goodwill with the new company.

    2. Natalie*

      This might be a place where less explanation is better, maybe stick with the Miss Manners classic “I’m afraid that won’t be possible” or similar. Assuming what you’re proposing is a reasonable start date, normal amount of notice for your current position, etc, if they lose their minds that’s extremely valuable information about them.

    3. Murphy*

      My offer letter had a start date on it, so we discussed a start date before I’d formally accepted anything. That being said, I’d made it pretty clear that I was taking the job.

      Can you say something like “I can agree to X weeks from the formal acceptance of a written offer?”

      1. Jane*

        That was what I started with, and when they pressed me for a specific date, I said “Since I don’t know the exact time when we’ll get the details of this figured out, how about X date, tentatively?”

        And they basically came back with “We are going to get that letter to you very soon, so how about one week earlier than that date?”

        I guess part of it is that I feel like this entire communication has the feeling of “Congratulations! We picked you! Now, when can you start?” without considering I might not even want the job, or that there might be any time taken for discussion at this point. I’m definitely not ready to even consider accepting without knowing what the offer would be, but they are giving me the impression that they are viewing the actual offer as a formality because they’ve already decided they are hiring me.

        But maybe I’m reading into it a bit, because of some other communications I’ve had with them, and that this is perfectly normal.

          1. Jane*

            I don’t know if this makes it more or less weird, but it involves a move across the country, so having enough time to get my affairs in order is really important to me! So, it’s not JUST about giving my notice, although that of course is also important. I have to find an apartment, pack my stuff, move, etc. I can’t start those balls rolling until things are finalized!

            I’m puzzled as to their hurry, too, because this is a new position they are creating–it is not a vacancy left by someone else. They are growing, and needed to add staff. So, I’m not sure what difference one week makes to them, but it is a big deal to me!

            1. HBucket*

              I think it makes it more weird! My Sheridan turned down a job he really wanted because they wouldn’t give him ample time to move and find a place. Part of him regrets it, but it just wasn’t feasible!

            3. Nita*

              I’ve been in that situation! It was also a new position, and there was more than a month of radio silence between the interview and the verbal offer. Ended up turning it down, in no small part because I wanted to leave my current job on good terms, without dumping a mess of half-finished work on someone’s desk.

    4. Everdene*

      I think that is an entirely reasonable thing to say! What happens if you agree 1st December but the don’t officially offer till Nov 30th, will you be expected to honour that? No, offer job, agree salary and only then agree a start date.

    5. Overeducated*

      My current job did this. It took literally months from verbal offer from hiring manager to formal offer letter from HR, and HR called before issuing it to “confirm” my start date. Conversation:

      “I can’t commit to a start date without a firm offer.”
      “But we can’t send an offer letter without a start date! We need that to send it out.”
      “OK, but the start date I agree to now will have to be contingent on the timing of the offer letter. I need to give at least 2 weeks notice to my current job.”
      “OK, well hopefully it will be quick and you’ll be able to start on the date we’re talking about.”

      It was not quick. The start date would have meant 1.5 weeks notice at current job. I had to call back and say “thanks, finally got the offer letter! Can you revise it with a later start date, please?” which they did. It was fine. An extra bureaucratic step, but fine.

      1. Jane*

        Yes, exactly. And I don’t even really have a verbal offer, either. They have not told me what the salary is or what the hiring range for the salary is.

        If they give me a really great offer, I will take it, and be happy to incur some extra expenses that arise of a fast move. For example, if I had to stay in a hotel for the first week because I was still looking for an apartment, or if I didn’t have time to sell my furniture and had to just give it all to charity. Those things might be doable if I got a big raise from what I’m making now. But I’d be less flexible if they weren’t going to give me a big raise from what I already make (which I kind of have a feeling they aren’t).

        So I don’t want to agree to a start date, and then find out they aren’t paying all that much for me to be willing to start on that date. I guess that means I’ll just turn it down, if that is the case. I’m kind of thinking I’m going to turn it down anyway, just because this entire process has not given me a good impression of this company. I hadn’t quite decided yet.

        1. Overeducated*

          Yeah, this all sounds bad. At least i had full salary and benefits info and had tentatively accepted a verbal offer while I was doing that dance.

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      I’m a fan of saying giving a hard timeline rather than a specific date. “I can start 2 weeks from the date of an accepted offer” or whatever it is that you need. If they push for a specific date, then tell them “if you get me the offer by x date, then my start date can be y date.” Make sure it’s contingent and they have some responsibility in it. If they don’t understand that you need to give 2 weeks notice plus an extra week because you’re moving or whatever it is that you need that is reasonable and customary, I would be a little concerned at their lack of basic courtesy in the matter.

    7. ArtK*

      If not a red flag, this is at least a yellow flag. They’re asking for a commitment from you before they make an offer. It’s certainly reasonable to discuss a start date, but asking for a commitment is too much, IMO.

    8. ThankYouRoman*

      They’re slightly lacking to say the least. You just put a start date that’s two weeks from the offer letter date.

      It’s also insanely sketchy they’re hammering at this detail and wont disclose salary range.

      An offer letter is negotiable. They can ask you to start last Thursday. It’ll be rewritten later because you’ll have to negotiate whatever magic number they plug into the salary line.

      1. Easily Amused*

        I think you should tell them that you can’t commit to a start date without knowing what the offer is. I’ve always had verbal discussions about salary and benefits before ever receiving a formal offer letter. They’re being a bit cagey. I took a job with a cross country move and they really pushed for me to get there ASAP. I had to skip a personal event of a friend that I would have liked to attend (since it was my first job out of grad school and I didn’t want to lose out on the opportunity by pushing back) and when I got there, they weren’t ready to get me started and I spent about a month with nothing assigned to me. I told myself I would never allow that to happen again (though I have). My current employer pushed me for a start date (though I had salary/benefits laid out already) and I pushed back that I wanted 2 weeks off in between jobs but would not commit to a specific date until the background/drug test cleared. They pushed a bit but I held firm and it was fine. If they really want you and are reasonable, they will understand that this is a big logistical move and help you through it by… being reasonable. That means having a salary/benefits/title/yes I accept this offer before nailing down a start date.

    9. ..Kat..*

      “Since I have to give 2 weeks notice, I can start 2 weeks after I accept your formal offer. When can I expect your formal offer?” They are being ridiculous.

    10. pcake*

      Tell them you can start 2 weeks from the date of the offer or whatever amount of time you need.

      It’s ridiculous to ask for a hard date without the offer. What if you tell them you can start on November 10 and you don’t get an offer till November 15th?

    11. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      I would give them a date and make very clear that it’s contingent on their getting the offer to you in a timely manner. Something like, “My start date could be Nov 26th, allowing for the requisite two weeks notice at my current employer”. If they push back, push back yourself. It’s a flag, but a mild one.

      Also, they have enough time to hassle you about the start date, but not put together the salary? Interesting. Keep that one in mind.

      From my own personal experience, I had a HR person push back when I wanted to start 3 weeks out (I wanted to give myself time between jobs). We went back and forth a bit, her helpfully telling me “only 2 weeks notice is required! We really want everyone to start at X time!” until I finally told her, “I’m committed to making sure I leave my current projects in good shape for easy transfer to my team, and this is the same level commitment I’m bringing to your company. I hope this will not be an issue.” I was ready to walk if the recruiter pushed back on that.

      Finally, I got there, and 3 people started after me–one over a month later. So much for “everyone starting at the same time”. Seriously, do what works for you.

  28. Peaches*

    I have a boss who I’ve had for a year now. He knows NOTHING about me as a person. He compliments my work and is a good boss overall from a work standpoint, but he has literally never asked me anything about my personal life (hobbies, spouse, etc.) Now, I certainly don’t want an overbearing boss who pries into my personal life – I’ve had that, and it’s been awful. However, I just think it’s weird how he’s never asked even a single thing about me.

    I know things about him because he shares them (he likes football and fishing, has two sons and a daughter, etc.) He’s had many opportunities over the past year to ask about me (even if it were the smallest thing). For instance, I took a week vacation last May (a cruise). He bought up the fact that I was going to be gone many times, but never said, “doing anything fun?” or, “how was your vacation?” when I returned. It’s also come up in conversation a several times that my husband was in school last year (he graduated PA school this past spring). My boss never once said, “oh, what’s he going to school for?” When my birthday rolled around a few months ago, a few of my coworkers told me happy birthday in front of my boss, but my boss still didn’t wish me a happy birthday.

    On Mondays, I will ask my boss how his weekend was. He’ll share everything he did, but never follow it up with, “and how was your weekend?” Again, it’s not that I won’t him to pry into my personal life, but he has never even asked the most general questions about me, even in times when any normal person in conversation would interject SOME sort of general question about the other person. It makes me feel like he only cares about me as an employee, and not as a person. Am I being too sensitive for being bothered by this?

    1. ACDC*

      I’m the same way, Peaches. I don’t need my boss/coworkers/whomever to be my friends, but I definitely need at least some personal interaction here and there. Some people might say you’re being overly sensitive, but I certainly wouldn’t. Some people crave that interaction more than others and that’s just the way it is.

      The flip side of that is that your boss is the opposite of people like us. He doesn’t seem to need or care for that sort of interaction. My current supervisor is the same way (however, my supervisor is more of a hermit type in that he doesn’t talk to ANYONE, not even “hello” or “goodbye,” he just disappears at the end of the day without saying anything to anyone). I just sum it up to that being his personality and nothing will ever change about that.

      I do think it’s weird though that your boss talks about his personal matters with you, you ask him questions about it, and then he never reciprocates in any way. But I think we can sum that up to a personality quirk too.

    2. In short, yes*

      Some people just don’t know how to ask these things or take the cue that they should. He may have also been told by others not to ask his direct reports details about their personal life. Be happy you have a good boss and accept that he won’t be discussing your personal life :)

      1. She's upstairs hiding from her cousins*

        I have to say, this is me to an extent. I’ve been extremely quiet (previously known as “shy” or “introverted”) almost my entire life.
        I truly forget to ask people questions. OK, maybe not even forget…I just don’t think to do it.
        I *know* many people find it odd, because I’ll say that I saw someone or met someone and the person I’m telling finds it astounding that I didn’t ask the “Who, What,When, Where, Why” of things. “How come you didn’t ask where he moved to? ” “Why didn’t you ask where she’s working?” “How many times had she been to Ireland?” “Is he married yet?”
        It’s just not in me. It’s not that I don’t care – OK, well sometimes I don’t – it’s just that it doesn’t matter to me. I feel like, the less I know, the better sometimes.
        Sometimes I feel like Sherlock – the Benedict Cumberbatch v.) when he says he can’t let insignificant details cloud his brain.
        :-/

        1. Super anon*

          Wow. I think you should read this back to yourself. It comes off as incredibly snobbish, particularly the last two paragraphs.

          1. Grace Less*

            Unkind, Super Anon.

            I don’t ask those questions of people because I’m afraid of accidentally “crossing the line” and asking something too personal. I hope that people understand it’s reserve, not snobbishness. I do make an effort to be a good listener and respond warmly when people offer details about their personal lives, and to me, that’s appropriate, especially at work.

          2. Land Grant*

            Very unkind. The OP wants to know why her boss is this way. When a similar type of person answers, it’s helpful to the OP.&

            1. She’s upstairs,*

              Wow. Yeah, thanks for defending me. Truly not a snob and honestly err on the side of too empathetic and concerned over things I can’t control… been known to drive people crazy by saying “Sorry.” wayyyy too much.

              A f*cking dog bit me tonight, and I feel like sh*t because I had to go to Urgent Care and that triggers an inquiry from the local authorities into their dog. And the owners.
              Snobbish? No.

              Maybe I shouldn’t have used Sherlock as an example because for the most part he seems, or maybe he is, pretty self-absorbed.
              Sometimes, I just have trouble focusing. I think I was trying to say that.

              I differ in the boss in this example, too, because I don’t talk about all the things that I did over a weekend and things of that nature.
              It’s definitely not all about me.

              I don’t know why I don’t ask questions, other than I feel like I am prying or could touch on an uncomfortable subject.
              It just feels nosy to me, rather than actually interested. And it’s not that I don’t care. It just makes me uncomfortable. As you can imagine, I’m not great at parties with idle chitchat.

              Another example just came to mind: this weekend a friend of mine told me her son was moving. When I got home it dawned on me that I never asked where to? Why? And I did feel like a total sh*t.

              Maybe I have had so many bad experiences in my life and I hate being asked questions for fear of bring something up. I have a really bad habit of not being able to control crying. Or at least really visibly tearing up. I guess I feel the same way about asking questions of others, rational or not.

    3. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I wish I had your boss! Some people are aware that there are employees like me who very much like to keep their lives private, and so maybe he’s just adopted the approach of “listen, but don’t ask.” However, if you want to share something, do! After he tells you about his weekend, share a bit about yours for example.

    4. Blue*

      Personally, I’d say that he’s there to be a good boss and to be supportive of you as an employee. As long as he’s doing that (and we know from this blog that it can be rare!), I think anything else is a bonus. But I can understand why this would bother you if you’re a relationship-oriented person. My guess is that he’s just more focused on tasks and that this habit has nothing to do with you, personally. If the one-sidedness is bothering you, I think you could either stop asking about his life (if he’s task-oriented, it may not even register that you’ve stopped, to be honest) or just share things without him explicitly asking.

      I have had working relationships like this in the past, so I don’t think it’s super rare. I mean, I worked with my last boss for about 4 years, and he knows virtually nothing about my personal life. I didn’t volunteer much, but he never really asked, either. But we had a fantastic working relationship. He was the best boss I’ve ever had, and I would work for him again in a heartbeat. Non-work chatter just wasn’t part of our dynamic.

    5. LCL*

      If your boss is otherwise a decent person, it sounds he has got slapped for asking questions that one of the employees considered too personal. So he won’t ask. When he tells you about his fishing trip, it is up to you to respond with something you did for recreation.

      I can see why you find this off putting, but it won’t change unless you start telling him about things that you did. The amount of personal information and interaction we have with our coworkers can be a neverending source of discussion and hurt feelings, on this blog and in the workplace and in the rest of the real world. Life is good when people who work together are a match in regards to how much information to share, but that is not so common.

    6. Forkeater*

      I totally get how you feel – but he might be acting like this because he thinks it would be rude to “pry.” My mom is like this – we don’t live close by but even when I visit in person she doesn’t ask me questions about myself, or my spouse, or job, or kids, or anything. I’ve learned to just babble which does not come naturally to me at all, I’m very quiet by nature but if I didn’t do it she wouldn’t know anything about my life, and she is a kind person.

      But on a related note – I have objectively the best job I’ve ever had or ever will have, and I still hate it because nobody talks to each other. I just got back today from being out all week at a conference and I brought treats back to the office and no one said thanks and no one said how was the conference. I don’t think they dislike me, it’s just our crappy culture. I keep my eyes open for new jobs but everything else here is so good, hopefully I can just transfer to a more outgoing department at some point.

      1. Nita*

        This. Just “volunteer” your personal info when he starts talking about his life. It’s not weird for him to avoid asking you directly – for some people, family topics are painful or sensitive. He may be thinking that talking about himself is an indirect opening for you to do the same, if you want.

    7. Sleepytime Tea*

      I understand where you’re coming from, because I too want my boss to show some sort of basic personal interest in me as a person and not just a peon. That said, like you mentioned you’ve had bosses that have been overly prying and it’s an issue. There’s more sensitivity when questions are asked flowing down the chain of power. Some people do not want their boss to inquire about their personal lives at all, and it’s safer for a manager not to ask those questions. I think it’s a good sign that he’s willing to share with you, which means that there is a personal rapport to a certain extent and it’s not like he blows you off and is cold and uninterested. But it may just be that he believes that those questions shouldn’t flow downward and instead he lets people volunteer that information about themselves.

    9. Alex*

      My boss is sort of like this too. VERY occasionally she will ask how my vacation was, but never anything less dramatic like, how was your weekend? Personal questions are definitely a no-go.

      I think she just views this as a professional relationship.

      Even stuff like…once I had a hard-to-explain emergency at my house one morning that involved calling 911. I texted her to say that I was late, dealing with an emergency and the fire department, but will be coming in.

      She never even asked about it. Just said “OK.” No “Hope your’e OK!” or checking in with me when I got to work. Fortunately, I was OK and so was my house, but she didn’t know that!

      I also recently won an award at work. Everyone else was saying “Hey, congrats!” when they saw me around the office that day or the day after it was announced. My boss never acknowledged it at all. And yet, I’m 99% sure she was the one who nominated me for it. So weird!

    10. Bagpuss*

      Do you get the impression that he does talk to or ask other employees about theses things.
      It may be that he isn’t great at picking up social cues or that he isn’t really interested and hasn’t worked out that it helps ‘oil the wheels’ .
      I can identify a bit . I have some colleagues and employees who I am also friends with, and I am genuinely interested in. There are others who I don’t have much in common with and I’m really not interested, on a personal level. fpr me, one distinction is whether Id be likely to remain in touch with the person f one of us left.
      I do make a conscious effort to ask from time to time, but it is , still, a conscious effort. , and for me it wasn’t intuitive.

      Also I think you can tell him stuff without waiting for him to ask. If you don’t typically volunteer stuff, he may be wary of asking in case it comes over as crossing a line . If he tells you something about his weekend, why not respond with ‘that sounds fun , mine was pretty good too, my husband and I did a climbing taster session, it was amazing !’ Or whatever.

    11. matcha123*

      I think I am like your boss. I am finding that most questions that many people see as innocent are ones that I was raised to interpret as crossing boundaries or just rude.
      I think if you want to share your vacation stories with your boss, you should just share them, rather than waiting for them to ask you. If I want to share something with a friend, I do it. And you might think that asking the question is fine, but I’ve been in the position too many times where people will try to ask what they see as an innocent question and I have to give them a really depressing answer they didn’t want to hear.
      (ex:
      Person: “I love all the time I spent with my grandparents as a child. What did you do with your grandparents when you were a kid?”
      Me: “Nothing really…”
      Person: “What do you mean? EVERYONE has some time at grandpa and grandma’s house!”
      Me: “My grandparents died before I ever met them.”
      Person: “…”)

      I think the fact that your boss is sharing with you means they are interested in your life, but they are waiting for you to jump into the conversation. Next time, just say, “I’m going to be trekking naked across wild drop bear country. I’ve been doing it for the past 20 years and it’s something I look forward to. The drop bears are lovely and sometimes giant scorpion spiders frolic in the bushes nearby. What are you doing this weekend?”

    12. BluntBunny*

      You should start the conversations if you have something to say rather that waiting to be asked. If I want to tell them something about my weekend I go I had dinner at this Italian restaunt etc or if it’s nice weather I would say oh it’s lovely today it was really nice on Saturday I went here. Or if it bad weather on the Thursday say something like oh it’s miserable today I hope it clears up by the weekend I’m going to the theatre. Some people assume that if you haven’t something to say you would have said it, it’s true for some people they genuinely have nothing to say or would rather keep interactions to a minimum. So just start telling him things like what you watching on tv, what you plans are for the weekend or if your going on holiday. Basically be the wakeen from Bee’s knees post once he knows more stuff about you he will ask you more things. To be fair a simple what about you isn’t hard for him to muster.

  29. anon today and tomorrow*

    So, I started a new job recently. It’s a company I’d been looking at for years, and I like it so far. But…so many people I know kept asking me if I was nervous/excited/anxious/etc. about starting a new job and I’ve always responded with some variation of “not really? I guess?” because I’m not any of those things. I’ve gotten some really taken aback reactions to my lack of excitement or nervousness.

    I like my job, but I didn’t have that overwhelming excitement starting it, and even now that I’m here it’s not like I jump out of bed each morning excited to start the day. And it’s not like I was nervous or anxious to leave my old job and start my new one.

    The best way I can describe it is….indifference? It’s sort of….it’s a job, I need a job to pay my bills, and I know I’ll be good at it, but that’s about it? But I rarely get super nervous or excited about things anyway and when I do, it’s more of a quick, fleeting emotion than something that lingers, and I just take them as they come, but I’m beginning to feel like that’s an “off” reaction to things based on how so many other people react (I also don’t know if my indifference is because of meds, but that’s a whole other issue, I think).

    1. Kendra*

      Even if it’s a bit different than how most people react, it sounds like it might be a nicer way to live! I get nervous and excited about things, and sometimes I think life would be a lot easier if I didn’t.

    2. peachie*

      I don’t think it’s that abnormal! It could partially be that saying something like “I’m excited to be moving on to a new job” is often just sort of what you say–not that it’s necessarily false, just in the sense of answering “I’m good!” when someone asks how you are.

    3. Kramerica Industries*

      I usually say that I’m “looking forward to it”, which tones down the excitement/anxious bit. Sure, it’s nice that I’m starting a new job. But would I call it “excited”? Ehh.

    4. Boo Hoo*

      I have never once in my life been excited to start a job. I feel like you, pays my bills but no I don’t have a strong desire to work, I want to win 1.6 Billion and hang out on my yacht. That doesn’t mean I don’t do my work with enthusiasm and work hard and care about my career, I do, but i am not excited to work quite frankly.

    5. Dr Whom*

      I’ve been on SSRIs that flatline me like this (but it also kept me from dipping into the low lows which is a fine trade off).

      That being said, I think some people put more emphasis on a job/company being a big part of your identity and so that’s more !!exciting!! Whereas I feel like “I need money, I’m here to dig ditches in exchange for money” about a job.

    6. De-Archivist*

      Seems normal to me, but I sometimes get that same weird reaction from people. I’m not especially emotive. I’m not depressed, dissociated, or depersonalized. I don’t take mood stabilizers. I’m just very chill and fairly content with my life. So it takes a ton of stress or something really, really exciting for me to get especially emotional. I’m not really scared of anything either, though heights give me vertigo sometimes.

      I wouldn’t worry too much about your own emotional responses if you feel like you’re doing okay emotionally. You can even have a set of canned answers like, “You seem really excited/happy/upset about that. Congrats/I’m sorry.” “I’m excited you’re so happy about this.” For this specific situation, “Not excited or nervous, but I’m glad to be talking on a new challenge.” Or, “Everything is going well. I think I’m going to enjoy working here.” Even, “I’ve only just started, but I like [these things] about new job.”

      It’s not that people are taken aback by your lack of an emotional answer, per se. More likely, it’s generally a bad sign when someone has a lackluster reaction to a new job. It can mean that the job isn’t what you thought or you think there may be some issues down the pipeline. Upthread, a couple of people mentioned “dream jobs,” and since there’s such a push to find a job that makes you wake up and sing for joy, people generally expect you to feel super pumped about your career. I personally think it’s fine to be happy with a job that gets the bills paid so that you can enjoy your like, but others-mileage-may-vary.

      I find myself wondering if other people feel feelings all the time. Like, I’m sitting here on my lunch break, reading the comments on this website. I’m not feeling anything at all. Nothing. Later, I’ll go to a baby shower, and I’ll be pleased that mom-to-be is so happy. But that’s it. Like how are people feeling so many feelings? Sometimes I wonder if people are just better at faking it, but even that seems unfairly judgemental. I just chalk it up to a difference in personality or brain chemistry.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I wonder about this too. Other people in my life seem to have much more intense emotions than I do. In my case I do suffer from chronic depression and take medication, but even when I’m not taking anything I just don’t have the same amplitude of feelings that other people seem to have.

  30. Kendra*

    How weird is it for a tech company to only hold one interview before deciding whether or not to hire you? It’s not quite the same situation as a previous ask a manager question where the company only had a 30 minute interview without asking any questions; the interview itself was a pretty thorough, hour-long technical one and they gave me plenty of time to ask questions. It’s not really a small company, either; it’s a small independent division of a big company, so it’s probably not that they don’t have much experience hiring.

    1. Sounds normal to me*

      Not weird at all! Sometimes they don’t need a whole bunch of people to “sign off” and you could be working with a small team.

    2. BadWolf*

      Not too weird. I think some tech companies are basically deciding, “Do you look pretty smart? Good at debug? Not a total jerk?” If yes, then you’ll pick up whatever specific thing they need you to work on.

    3. ThankYouRoman*

      I’m not in tech specifically but rapidly expanding businesses tend not to have long interviewing processes in my experience.

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      Not weird at all, especially in tech. They want to figure out if you have the skills you need to do the job. They gave you a technical interview and asked you a lot of questions. They got what they needed. My significant other works in tech and this has been his experience pretty much at every job he’s had.

    5. k8*

      mmmehhh in my personal experience as a dev in NYC, that’s pretty weird. even the smallest companies i’ve interviewed with did multiple rounds; it’s pretty de rigueur to do some combo of a phone screen, a take-home coding challenge or screenshare/hackerrank-type interview, and an onsite of 2-5 hour. only one hour-long interview (as nice as that sounds, considering the hoops i’ve had to jump through for some of these jobs) would make me question the job/how well they’re screening candidates. (for reference, i went through to the last round at 3 companies of varying sizes this past summer and 5-6 a year and a half ago, so i have some experience, lol).

  31. Psyche*

    I have an awkward situation now. I am getting married soon and sent save the dates to all of my coworkers. I then got a new job that I will start before the wedding. I am still going to invite everyone, but a new person just started. I do not know them and we will only overlap by about a month. I do not have space to invite them to the wedding. Is it terrible to invite everyone else but not the new person when I won’t even work here anymore? My only other option is to not invite anyone, but that feels so rude when I already sent out save the dates.

    1. peachie*

      Nah, I wouldn’t feel bad about it. Honestly, as a new person, I wouldn’t at all be expecting an invitation, especially for someone I only saw for maybe 20 days total.

    2. Peaches*

      No, it’s not rude at all. It’s doubtful you’ll establish a close enough friendship with this person in the slight overlap you’ll have at your job together to invite him or her to your wedding. I doubt the new person would even expect to be invited, and would know that you invited your other coworkers because you’ve known them much longer.

    3. Oxford Comma*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s not like you brought in lunch for everyone but the new person. It’s a wedding. I would never expect to be invited in the circumstances you’re describing.

    4. Jane*

      I think it’s pretty safe to say that new person doesn’t really want to attend the wedding of someone she doesn’t know just because her new coworkers are going to it.

      Unless the place is going all Dunder Mifflin and giving everyone who is going to the wedding a long weekend, leaving the new uninvited person sitting there by herself, I wouldn’t worry about it.

    5. Hermy-own*

      Yeah if you already sent out save the dates you cannot not invite those people. That is wildly rude. But new coworker doesn’t need an invite.

    6. Autumnheart*

      I’d say you’re in the clear. You sent out invitations before they started, you’re not previously acquainted, and I’m sure they would feel a little weird if they got a last-minute invite to a wedding for someone they only just met. If you wind up liking this person, give one of your coworkers a piece of cake to bring to them or something.

    7. ThankYouRoman*

      I think it’s more weird to invite someone you’ll know for a hot minute to a personal event! If their feelings are even dinged, that’s on them…it would be so odd to feel like you would be invited to a wedding your first month at a new job.

    8. Nana*

      I was once going to temp [in a small office] for a woman who was getting married on the weekend. So, I worked with her all day Friday. ..others said ‘goodbye…see you tomorrow’ to her, as they left. I said “I feel just like Cinderella!’…and we laughed. And, no, I had no interest in going to the wedding.

  32. Indecisive*

    I’m looking for advice regarding the timing of quitting my job. I’ve been with my current organization for almost 4 years. My fiancé was out of work for a few years and finally found a job in his field this summer, however the position was in a city three hours away. He took the job and we have been long distance since June. We are getting married in March, and the plan was to decide what to do (either I move with him, or he moves back with me) after the wedding.
    I’ve become increasingly unhappy with my job over the past six months. I was given a new boss this spring who I have always liked as a co-worker, but I do not like her as a boss. I feel like she treats me like her assistant and she is often unavailable and out of the office, making her very hard to reach. I’ve also come to the realization that there is very little career growth for me here. My previous boss confirmed that I am so good at what I currently do, they really want to keep me in my current position (which I am trying to get away from). Because of these reasons, my fiancé and I decided I would relocate to his city and live with him.
    Ideally, I would like to leave my current job right before my wedding and not come back. This would give me plenty of time for the wedding, our honeymoon, and to move to my fiance’s city. However, my current job is so busy I honestly don’t see myself having time to apply for new jobs right now. I definitely do not have the vacation time available to drive three hours for in-person interviews. I’ve talked to my fiancé about this, and we are both aware it’s wiser to leave a job when you have a new one lined up. However, I don’t think it’s realistic for me to be able to line up a new job until after the wedding is over. My fiancé has basically said he will support me with whatever I decide is best for me.
    I’ve considered giving notice right before my wedding, quitting my job, and moving to this new city without a new position lined up. I have some savings and I could potentially work for a temp agency, although I’ve never done this before and I’m not sure how easy it is to find temporary work. I really like the idea of being able to pack up and move, get settled, and then dive into applying for jobs, have interviews, etc. Is this a terribly reckless move? Should I stick it out at my current job until after our wedding, and try to secure a new position first? I know this question is kind of personal, but I’m really struggling with making a decision on this.

    1. Indecisive*

      Yikes, sorry about the wall of text. I copied and pasted and apparently my paragraph breaks didn’t save!

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        I was in a similar situation in OldJob, only my fantastic boss retired and his boss decided to not bother worrying about filling his role (he gave her over a YEAR’S NOTICE that he planned to retire). So when GrandBoss, who is spectacularly ineffective, inherited me, she had no idea what to do with me. She ended up canning all of our programs, all of our activities, and having me on to be her second personal assistant. This did not fly with me, who had spent three years building those programs from scratch and loved working with students directly. Now, I’d have approximately zero interaction with students and OldJob never promoted internally, so looking elsewhere was my only choice.

        I was also in the middle of planning my wedding and honeymoon. Because work was making me so miserable, the plan was that I would quit when I got back from our honeymoon at the end of July. I’d keep applying for positions in my field but I had a plan to substitute teach if nothing came up by the start of September (husband is a teacher in a district that is desperate for subs). I ended up interviewing the day after getting back from my honeymoon for my current job.

        I think your plan of leaving before your wedding is a good idea-I wish I did. I would have actually gotten some payout from my vacation days instead of using them all up and then quitting. Look into temporary opportunities in that new area, whether it’s temping, subbing, retail, etc. I think once you quit your job, if you can, apply for a few positions before your wedding. Hiring managers can take forever in some cases to get back to you. I applied for NewJob a month before I got contacted for a phone interview. Having all the wedding stuff going on was actually a great distraction from the application process!

        I don’t think your reckless for thinking of leaving before having a new job. It is life-suckingly miserable to be in a job that doesn’t appreciate you and your skills, and I can’t imagine being long distance from my main support system. Communication with your fiance is KEY in all of this, and coming up with back-ups to your back-ups is also super important. Good luck in your search, and congrats on your wedding!

    2. Two Dog Night*

      For what it’s worth, I quit my job (which I really, really hated) when I got married in October, started job-hunting in January, and was working in February. This was back in the ’90s, so things might be different now, but I think a break at this point would be very explainable, especially since you’re moving cities. And moving is stressful enough without adding a new job to the mix.

    3. Shelly*

      You have to follow your gut instinct/tingly feelings/whatever your spiritual thing is. You are the person who has to live with this whole arrangement and you should follow what feels right to you. I don’t think there’s any option here that would be the end of the world, just a matter of timing. You are not a bad person or lazy or selfish for deciding to cut the cord now and move, and deal with whatever consequences that means for getting a new job.

      It sounds like you have five months between now and the wedding. If you’re going to keep your job and do what you can until the wedding, I would decide how much time you want to dedicate to job searching each week, and then write up a calendar (separate from wedding tasks) for yourself of working up your resume and cover letter, applying to jobs, setting up informational interviews, etc. Even if it’s only a few hours per week, I would start now so that you have a plan instead of feeling guilty because you aren’t taking action. You should also decide now what your last day at current job is, so that you know when you should give two weeks and include enough time before the wedding to pack, move, unpack, and not feel entirely in shambles before wedding.

      If your current job is flexible at all, I would consider asking if you could work longer hours four days per week, instead of coming in five days per week. If they need a reason, you could say something vague about wedding, fiance, etc. (And if you request Monday or Friday, that would go along with it.) That way, you would have a consistent day off that you could schedule interviews on and travel to city. Even if you don’t go every week, it will give you better flexibility now instead of trying to sneakily schedule days off and rushing to and from (not possible with three hours travel each way).

    4. OperaArt*

      Is the new city one which has several possible employers for your field of work? If so, I would risk leaving your current job before the wedding.

    5. SophieChotek*

      I’ve never done this and I would have some of the financial qualms it sounds like you are having, but it also sounds like you also already know you don’t have PTO to drive to 3 hour interviews, etc. (

      Honestly, I would give notice so you can be done before you wedding – enjoy the wedding, honeymoon, and move and then just commit full-time to the job search. Moving and marriage are two really big life events (so I hear, having not done marriage, but have moved across from one side of the country to the other 3x, plus moved within the same city 3x), so it seems like this could be a needed break. (It might be hard to be 100% in the job search, with the wedding and move coming up anyway). (Perhaps make an exception to this rule of not job searching while finishing up old job, if “perfect”/”really good job fit” in new city came up and you think you could swing 1 or 2 interviews in New City.)

      My one suggestion might be: I know when one takes a break (I’ve done this before, decided I just needed to take abreak for X amount of time and just let myself re-charge, I’ve allowed that 1 week to stretch to 3, etc.). I would suggest you make a plan: wedding, honeymoon, X weeks to move and settle in, and then commit to that schedule and on to it’s FT job search time. (And maybe volunteering/networking/whatever, go get connected in a new city and also give yourself some other outlets while job searching.)

      Of course, this depends on if this idea is financially feasible.

      Totally my 2 cents. Disregard as needed!

    6. CatCat*

      If you’re in the US, I’d check your state’s eligibility requirements for collecting unemployment insurance benefits. In my state, it is good cause to quit (and therefore one is eligible for benefits) to move to be with your spouse or move to get married and be with your new spouse. If that’s the case where you are and you have financial concerns, that could help alleviate them.

      When I got married and was long-distance from my spouse, I was living in a state that did not have such a provision, alas! I started looking while we were engaged and didn’t land a job and move to be with him until 4 months after we were married. Sucked!

    7. Sleepytime Tea*

      Yeah I think that in this case, with the wedding and with the distance you are from your new city, it will be much simpler and more feasible to quit without having something lined up and then job hunt when you’re back from the honeymoon. Your fiance has offered to support you which is fantastic, and then you can relax and not have to worry about throwing yourself into a job search. You can do some light job searching at the moment just to get a bit of a head start, but don’t throw yourself into it 110%, would be my recommendation. I don’t think you need to worry so much. You’ve got a lot on your plate. I give you permission to relax and put off the job hunt until after you enjoy your fabulous honeymoon. :-)

    8. HMM*

      I have quit my job 2 times without having anything lined up (once because I didn’t like the job, and once for a move to join my boyfriend in his city), and have had no trouble getting a new job. This all happened within the last 5-6 years, so relatively recently. Plus, I’ve always found that it’s easier to search for a job when I have time instead of doing it after being exhausted at work. This process requires 1) that you save up as much money as you can because it’ll allow you to do 2) not jump at the first job that you like/makes you an offer when you do get around to searching. You want to make sure you’re taking a job you want, and not getting into a bad situation out of desperation.

      Explaining to an interviewer that you had a gap because you moved to join your spouse is very common and will not reflect poorly on you. If you’ll be moving anyway, quit the job, devote the time you want to your wedding/moving, and then pick up the job search later. (My only caveat – I’ve never planned a wedding, but if you have time to start planting seeds for a job search (having a couple of networking coffees, applying here or there when you see a job you like), I would do that. I think you’ll feel much better not having to start from scratch after the honeymoon is over. And it really won’t take that much time. If interviews come up, you can always schedule around your personal life, as usual.)

    9. Jerry Vandesic*

      “… my current job is so busy I honestly don’t see myself having time to apply for new jobs right now”

      My suggestion would be to adjust your priorities so that finding a new job is more important and gets more time than your current job. If your current work slips because you are trying to find a new job, so be it. Focus on what is important, which is a new job that will support your post-marriage life.

    10. valentine*

      The wedding is giving you a great break. Resign pre-wedding, so you can enjoy it and the honeymoon, then move, settle in, and temp whilst job searching.

    11. BluntBunny*

      Could your fiancé scope out what companies in the area align with you requirements then atleast you have a list of where to look. I would try to keep your LinkedIn and CV up to date at least and how about if you say when applying you can have face to face interviews Monday-Tuesday but Skype and telephone interviews anytime. As you could stay with you Fiancé on the weekend interview on Monday and be at work the Tuesday using only one day PTO.

    12. ronda*

      it sound like you are having a little guilt about the timing of your leaving…. you don’t need to, it is normal for people to leave jobs. Just decide when you want to leave and how much notice you want to give and go for it. You are leaving no matter what, so be matter of fact about it.

      Also, you can start looking for jobs now if you want without investing too much time. Look at the job postings and only apply to the ones that are very good fits for now. In your cover letter mention your timeline for marriage / moving and say you understand if this does not fit with their timeline, but the job looked like a good fit and so you did want to take the chance and apply. Someone may be willing to wait, or they might have a long hiring process that will match up with your timeline.
      Once you are in the city, I would apply again if any of your likely jobs look like they might still have openings.

    13. Hamburke*

      This was pretty much the situation laid out in the latest podcast – a few months employment gap isn’t going to stand out in a resume. Especially for “reasons” – the podcast lw finished a degree, you moved cities.

    14. Seeking Second Childhood*

      This sounds to me like a great time to contact recruiters to let them do legwork. You like & are liked at your current job. You want another job like it but in a new city, for an easily communicated reason. You have a defined future start date. And you’re going to be financially able to accept a contract-to-perm opportunity if need be.
      I’d think a recruiter would jump on that!

  33. peachie*

    Any folks have data science/data analytics/SQL reporting jobs? I’m new to the field and trying to figure out where to go, but I’m a little lost and unsure of the possibilities.

    My background/experience: I have had basically no formal education in anything in the ballpark of computer science/statistics (so apologies in advance if I’m explaining things poorly). My current job, which I’ve been in for about half a year, is mainly SQL reporting, specifically in the field of healthcare/medical research. I’d consider myself ‘strong intermediate’ in SQL–what I mean is that what I do doesn’t get deep into the more complex T-SQL programming type stuff, but I feel strong/comfortable about the scope of what I do. (It’s mostly what I’d call ‘qualitative’ reporting, for lack of a better word–I don’t do much with numbers outside of counting.) I also don’t know basically anything about the more DBA-type SQL stuff, but I also have no desire to do that kind of work, so. I’ve been using Tableau for a few years, so I’m comfortable but still probably at the beginner-intermediate level. I just–like, JUST–started learning R, and I’m currently taking an introductory stats class just so I have the basic-basics to go on. I’m in the beginning stages of doing some natural-language processing. I also have a few Epic certifications that may be relevant for job reasons.

    I’m not looking to leave my job in the near future, though I also don’t plan to stay forever. While I’m here, I’m trying to get some educational experience that will help me out down the road, but that’s where I’m getting stuck–I just don’t know what direction to go in. I work for a university and have the chance to audit about one class a semester (hence the stats), but I’m also looking at doing a part-time online grad program somewhere in the data science universe while working.

    Ultimately, I would love to get to a place where I can do independent consulting/independent contracting/freelance work. Having to be in an office at specific times 40+ hours a week is not something I want to do forever, and having flexibility to work from home/setting my own hours and even being able to take on more or less work throughout the year. (My mom, mostly by virtue of being really good at her job, has picked up a few contractor/consulting jobs for SQL reporting that she does in addition to full-time work–she does them on her own time, but regularly enough that she could probably approach her full-time salary if she quit the ‘day job’ and picked up one or two of the contracts she had to turn down.)

    I’ve worked with healthcare/medicine/higher education a lot, and I’d be happy to keep doing that–probably happier than in a commercial sector, but who knows. I prefer medicine/research to healthcare operations, but those are both fields I’d potentially be interested in.

    But as far as what I want to DO, I’m lost. I’m not sure if it’s because I don’t have a formal background, but I don’t know what’s out there or what it would be worth pursuing. I like the reporting stuff. I’d potentially be interested in doing more with analysis, visualization, NLP, machine learning, AI… I have no idea!

    So, some questions:

    * If you work in data science/adjacent, what is your work like?

    * I’m really at sea re: graduate programs and confused by trying to suss out the nuances/what would be useful. Any thoughts of how to approach this?

    * This is very general, but… what’s out there? I don’t even know what the possibilities are.

    This is SO many words, sorry! It’s been a week and I’m rambly this morning.

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Data Scientist here!

      * If you work in data science/adjacent, what is your work like?

      I work exclusively in R and Python and a bit of Excel. I’d say 20% of my job is also making powerpoints and presenting my work.

      * I’m really at sea re: graduate programs and confused by trying to suss out the nuances/what would be useful. Any thoughts of how to approach this?

      My masters was literally titled “MSc in Data Science and Analytics”. It was heavy on the practical side: how to code, real projects, presenting, and visualisation. I’d look for ones that do focus on code. I was taught SPSS and SQL, for example, but I’ve never used either.

      * This is very general, but… what’s out there? I don’t even know what the possibilities are.

      I’m relatively new in my career, but jobs tend to gravate towards mathematics and statistics, time series analysis, and machine learning. My last job was all maths, my current deals with classification, and the one I’m moving to in March is maths and machine learning based. I know that’s all really vague. What kind of stuff interests you? Classifying data? Working with sensors? Predicting information? There are so many possibilities.

      1. Less Bread More Taxes*

        I should note that even within, say, healthcare, there so many options. I know someone that works with data from sensors on the machines that make knee replacements. I also know someone that predicts patients’ costs.

        1. peachie*

          That thing with the machine sensors sounds so cool! I’m more drawn to that type of thing, though I know working with finances/money/costs is often where the money is (heh).

          This is a very stupid question, but what do you… do?… with Python? I see it mentioned a lot as a thing you should learn, but we don’t use it at all in my org (that I know of) so I don’t have more than a theoretical understanding.

          I wish I had a better idea of what I wanted to do specifically, but I’m still trying to figure it out. I got into my current job basically by chance, and it’s something I never would have thought to try. I think what I like about it is the problem-solving aspects of the job, plus the fact that almost every project I get involves something I haven’t done before. Predictive analytics is also interesting, though I haven’t done anything with it (and I definitely don’t have the stats/math background for it yet). I have done nothing at all with machine learning, but I’d like to start exploring that–I’ve especially been thinking about ethics/bias in machine learning, and I’d be interested to work on studying/correcting that.

          1. Less Bread More Taxes*

            So at my last job, I was brought on solely to work on building an algorithm that detected the presence of anomalies in some data. That was all about machine learning and trying to find the patterns in the data first and then identify the anomalies. For example, let’s say someone clocking in at 9am on a weekday is normal but clocking in at 9am on a Saturday isn’t. But you don’t have the days or dates and you’re just trying to figure out why a 9am clockin would be abnormal. That’s really basic, but that was kind of the idea.

            As maybe a better example, this is what I’m doing right now: without going into too much detail, this company has a huge amount of data from people’s expenses, and the way this company handles it means employees enter the expense info themselves. So we have a huge CSV file with over a million rows with just blocks of text. Everything from non-detailed stuff like “food” to “bought breakfast while in Hamburg on partner meeting trip March 23, 2016”. Obviously you can find out what business trip the second one came from fairly easily. But the first not so much. So I am writing a program in R actually to group keywords into different categories. I’m also using the employee names to cross-reference other files to try to source dates, managers, departments, etc. and whatever else can help me sort out what business trip ID goes with what line. It’s not very exciting stuff, but the actual code part is interesting to me.

            To be honest, this isn’t really what I want to be doing. I am only at this current job for a couple of months, but for unrelated reasons, it’s not for me. The new position I have that starts next year has to do with getting data from sensors in a home and dealing with it. I’m not entirely sure what I’ll be looking for yet, but it will probably be either prediction-based or anomaly-based.

      2. AnonEmu*

        Any tips for learning Python/ good online resources? I am pretty fluent in R and a bit above beginner in QGIS but want to learn Python to gain additional skills. I’ve used SQL for a previous course, but I’m rusty.

        2. Close Bracket*

          Udemy has classes on sale for $10.99 regularly, and Datacamp has a subscription model that allows you to take as many classes as you like. edX is another good resource.

        3. Product person*

          AnonEmu,

          Make sure you find a course in Python for Data Science / Analytics, if that’s your focus.
          Don’t waste time in a generic Python course, as you’ll be learning lots of stuff that will be useless for someone in the analytics field.

          I’ve added to my signature a good place to start.

          1. AnonEmu*

            Thanks! I do a lot of biological/environmental stuff in R so Python seems like a logical step, and if I’m quitting current hell job anyway, “I was job hunting and learning a new programming language” seems like a good enough reason for any potential gap.

    2. Notapirate*

      What’s your education/degree background? Are you looking to go back to school or just other fields you can move into with current abilities?

      “Bioinformatics” is the keyword that covers conputer work within bioengineering, biostatistics and the like. A lot of people in that work in the mmedical field or adjacent doing data processing and creating workflows and pipelines for data. It is a huge field and hiring right now. You prob do need some sort of degree related just to get past the resume filters but my friends say there’s usually mpre emphasis on coding skills test at interview stage rather than what is your degree. It is a bit more code heavy. I think some places will hire with just a BS or BE but a lot of the places are looking for a masters or PhD. If you’re not looking to move up within that role a masters is fine, phd is more if you want to move up to managing people and designing the stuff that generates thr data.

      A lot of startups in biotech are also hiring data wranglers. Startups tend to pay less and have long hours but a lot of potential for growth. They are less automated we only want resumes with a masters in this particular field too.

      1. peachie*

        Haha, my education/degree background is “not really.” I do have a bachelor’s, but it’s a BA in theater and history–don’t regret doing it, but it’s not really relevant. I’m self-taught + some online classes for SQL/R and I have a few Epic (electronic healthcare records) certifications. That’s pretty much it!

        I’ve been looking into some bioinformatics things. From a not-particularly-knowledgeable perspective, I think I’d be interested in that kind of work, though I’d really have to work to get my stats skills to a competent enough level. But it sounds like it might be workable from an education-path standpoint–I do want to get a masters, but I don’t think I want to pursue a doctoral degree. Do you happen to know if most people in that field have a bioinformatics-specific degree (as opposed to a more generalized informatics/data science degree)?

    3. nonymous*

      Why don’t you start by asking your Mom for a referral for one of those contracts she turned down?

      As far as what skills to work on, I’d say given your description it sounds like presentation skills would be really helpful. Just think – using your SME/SQL knowledge to query the DB, and then switch to R/tidyverse/knitr/shiny to bang it into something accessible to a stakeholder. It’s obviously a little more complex than that, but your experience in the field should help you zero in on what questions are of value to the stakeholder. Ultimately there’s a narrative to be told and the data summaries, modeling and graphics provide justification and help engage the audience.

      1. peachie*

        Haha, I’ve thought about it! I can’t really take it on right now, but I’ll probably end up working with her on some projects like that. The only downside/potential snag is that for her, it’s lots of numbers and financial data; I suppose it’s not THAT different, but (in my limited experience) there are some differences in techniques/approach looking to, say, sum quarterly earnings by location vs. finding patients with a specific list of criteria for a study. I dunno, though.

        Presentation skills–that’s a good point! I think I’m pretty good at the generals of presenting things/talking to people; I’m also an actor and have done conferences and that sort of thing. But I’m interested in learning some of the psychology of how data is presented, especially visually.

    4. Data Manager*

      I’m a data manager, and I do a lot of work in Excel, Cognos, and Tableau. I also have experience with R, SQL, and Python. (For job hunting, don’t feel like you have to know *every* language and program. If you have a sustained track record of using and learning some of them, people will trust that you can pick up more.) I have a light-to-medium stats background but rarely use actual statistical tests and such in my work.

      If you’re looking for jobs in this area, I’d emphasize your communication and presentation skills — there are a LOT of people who are brilliant with data but are not so good at communicating the bottom line to the appropriate audiences. In that same vein, brush up on your Tableau skills, for sure, as data viz is pretty hot right now. Tableau + SQL skills can take you pretty far. There are lots of jobs like this in higher ed. You can look in specific research centers or something central like business intelligence.

      1. peachie*

        That’s good to hear! SQL and Tableau are definitely what I’m most comfortable with. Our team is painfully understaffed at the moment, but when we’re not, I’m planning to start working on incorporating Tableau into more of our projects–at the moment, when my sub-team uses it, it’s basically just functioning as a live data file that can update automatically.

        Probably a silly question, but what sorts of Tableau visualizations do you typically make? It seems like there are so many ways it could be used, but I’ve only been exposed to a few and I don’t know if that’s representative.

        1. Data Manager*

          Mostly either dashboards that monitor KPIs or “live” reports for senior staff (instead of a weekly or monthly paper report, for example). For Tableau inspiration, I’d recommend following Makeover Monday on Twitter and keeping up with the gallery on Tableau Public, where you can subscribe to the Viz of the Day. You can get really creative with Tableau, and there’s some awesome vizzes out there.

    5. anonagain*

      Are there meetups near you? If not, getting involved in the community online is a good idea. (Probably do that anyway.) Apologies if I already gave you this advice. I don’t remember who I suggested this to before.

      One thing: Do you anyone with the knowledge to help you gauge your skill level? Maybe your mom? If you go to a meetup you might find a mentor there too. You might be a beginner-intermediate at Tableau, but you might be selling yourself short. When it’s time to apply for jobs you obviously don’t want to do that. You also don’t want to self-select out of learning opportunities that you are ready for because you are downplaying your skill level. (I waited way too long to go to meetups that required a basic knowledge of the language. When I finally went I realized that I should have been going for years.)

    6. Phoenix Programmer*

      Don’t shy away from business analyst, reporting anylst, and operating anylyst type jobs. Also I have been very successful with my statsitics degree as a financial analyst. Even though most say CPA preferred.

    7. DouDouPaille*

      I used to do exactly what you do. When I quit my full-time job at a health insurance company, I found short-term contract work, of which there was plenty in my metro area. Some was for biotech companies, some was for other insurance companies, some was for health-related companies. It was 40-hours a week, 9-5, but these contracts were 2-8 months, and I was always able to take nice little breaks in between them to offset the monotony of the 9-5. Find a good recruiter/temp agency that specializes in techie placements. Your lack of degree or formal training should not be an issue if you have solid experience and can show results from previous projects you’ve worked on.

    8. thepinkleprechaun*

      I’m an analyst…. well what I do is more data science but I don’t have a degree in it. I work for an organization that provides consulting, TA, analytics services, etc for an industry that is somewhat similar to healthcare. I almost exclusively use R, because it’s such a flexible tool. Some of my coworkers who have been there for a long time still use SPSS, but they also recognize its limitations. We also work a lot with SQL Server. I am the only one who has used Tableau, and it was very briefly before my R skills advanced to the point where I was doing geospatial mapping and building interactive Shiny applications (I started with absolutely 0 skills in data analysis).

      If you want to beef up your analytic skills, you will probably want to become proficient in R or Python, or both I guess. There are also plenty of online data science masters degrees now from reputable universities, although they’re not usually cheap. UC Berkeley is one I can think of in particular but there are many others. So you could further your education while you are in your current job.

      So, the organization I work with is small, and because of that I and other members of my team are expected to be competent in many different areas. So we regularly write proposals, do conference presentations, client visits on site, sometimes write journal articles, etc etc. Because we are constantly trying to bring in new business I feel like I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to get clients or get a contract.

      You can use your current job to get experience that will make you seem credible to potential future clients. You’ll probably want to be able to highlight project manager roles at the very least. Having publications under your belt does not hurt at all. Having a masters in data science would be a bonus and give you added credibility. You might want to also start working on building your online presence as an analyst/data scientist. You can do that by answering questions on stackoverflow, starting a blog and doing interesting analyses on your own time, etc. It’s really helpful to have an online presence because it’s a quick and easy way for people to see that you know what you’re doing.

    9. Windchime*

      I am not a data scientist, but I’m a SQL programmer in an IT shop for a big medical group. I started taking the R class at Coursera but it wasn’t really my jam. My job uses Epic as their medical system, so my programming is done mostly out of there and can get pretty complex (lots of temp tables, window functions, etc). I use SQL for the back end and Crystal Reports for the front end. I find it really interesting and lots of big hospital/medical systems have a need for this type of reporting.

  34. AnonAnon*

    I recently went through a lengthy, thorough, and very competitive interview process and was not selected in the final stage. I’m disappointed not to have gotten the job, but more than that I’m feeling unenthusiastic about my current job. (Which is a new feeling – I hadn’t been planning to look for other jobs; this particular opportunity was just too good to pass up.)

    The hiring process was incredibly well done, IMO – it involved a lot of reflection and consideration of what I wanted to accomplish in my work and what kind of roles would allow me to do that. I did some dreaming about the work I wanted to be doing and, frankly, fantasized about getting to let go of the stuff in my current job that is frustrating, unfair, uninteresting, etc.

    Does anyone have recommendations for how to get my head back in the game of my current work, after coming close to leaving for something bigger and more exciting?

    Here are the things I’m thinking about doing:

    1) Telling my manager what’s going on and what I’m struggling with. I trust her completely (as well as her manager, who I also work with closely and who I’ve known for over a decade), and I think she could be helpful in processing some of what I’m thinking about. (I also know that she had a similar experience over the summer; I don’t know if she wasn’t offered the job or if she turned it down, but I know she was a finalist for something but ended up staying here.)

    2) Choosing one or two bigger-picture projects to focus on, to give myself a break from the grind of the day-to-day. I could do this without involving my manager, but obviously it would be great to get her support so I could potentially let go of some of my less-exciting work in the meantime.

    3) Tackling head on one of the crappy problems that I was fantasizing about not having to deal with if I got the new job. I have something in mind – a nagging problem that I’ve been working around rather than addressing head on.

    I also want to do some thinking about whether I want to stay here. It wasn’t a question before this opportunity cropped up, but I’m not sure where my head is at now. What other suggestions do folks have to stay happy where I am (for now) and think through what else I may want to do?

    1. peachie*

      I think all your plans are good plans! I’m glad you have a good manager–I would definitely be honest with her. It sounds like she’d want to work with you to find ways to make you happier in your role (or be a reference/resource for your job hunt, if that’s the way you decide to go).

      It might be helpful to make a list of what things you specifically don’t like about your job, then go through one by one and write out what change(s) would alleviate/eliminate that. I don’t mean what you think could practically actually happen, necessarily–this is more to ground your thoughts re: what you do and don’t want in a job. For example, if you have to do a ton of administrative tasks that aren’t your speed, having an administrative assistant for the department could alleviate that part of the stress. That doesn’t mean your organization would ever do that, but it could still help you clarify what kind of work environment you do want.

      Also, I think it’s totally normal to start thinking about leaving a job in your situation. No advice, I just think it’s normal.

  35. Evil HR Person*

    We have this applicant who keeps applying for the same position over and over, and we keep rejecting them using the Applicant Tracking System’s general “thank you for applying, but…” message. Part of the problem is their experience: it doesn’t quite work for the position. But, their application is awful. It’s riddled with typos and grammatical errors, even though this person just graduated from a well-known university and (one would think) should know how to spell and write correctly – or at least use Word to fix the errors! When I downloaded their resume from the Applicant Tracking System, it was a Word document, and my screen lit up like the Fourth of July: red and blue everywhere. They keep submitting the same exact resume and we simply cannot hire this person.

    So, what do I do? I really want to send them a polite message, in part to help them understand the role in our company is simply not a good fit; but also, I’d like to tell them that their resume will impact their selection, not just at my company, but elsewhere as well. I know I’m not obligated to do so – but I feel I owe it to cosmos, to do something to help someone get ahead, even if it’s not at my company. Thoughts??

    1. Psyche*

      It really depends on whether you are willing to risk them either lashing out or trying to talk you into hiring them. I probably wouldn’t give feedback unless they reached out to ask. I do think it is a kind thing to do, but giving criticism to a stranger is always risky because you don’t know how they will react.

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      I think it would be kind of you to give this person feedback. I know I would want to know. And yes, you take the risk of them being a jerk and lashing out at you or taking the dialogue you’ve started as a way to try and convince you to give them an interview. But you can always simply ignore them if they get that way. (That’s not easy for everyone to do, I know, but it’s easy for me.)

      If you can avoid sending something from your personal e-mail, that would be ideal, but at a bare minimum make sure you don’t have your phone number in your e-mail signature or something like that. As a job applicant, I would appreciate something like this:

      “Thank you so much for applying to xyz position. I know from your past applications that you must be very interested in it. Unfortunately your current experience level is not what is required for this position. (Feel free to add more detail if you’d like. We really need someone with at least 5 years experience in teapot design, etc.) I wish you the best in your job search. On that note, I wanted to alert you to some errors in your resume. You may benefit from some additional proofreading or using a program like Microsoft Word to resolve some spelling and grammatical issues. I hope that you find success in your next venture.”

      You’re polite, you’re also hinting that they need not apply to this position anymore (ie “next venture”), and tying the suggesting that they clean up their resume to your very courteous well wishes on their job hunt. Personally, I would appreciate it immensely. It’s like having lettuce in your teeth and no one telling you about it.

        1. valentine*

          The applicant will interpret this as an invitation to shape up and reapply or to apply for other positions with you. If you do this, specify “venture with another firm.”

    3. BRR*

      Ugh that’s tough. I think you’re fine to submit a message about the constant applying for this role. While I really understand why you want to help him out, I think employers should almost always avoid unsolicited feedback. I know it’s such a small thing to just suggest spell checking and I think you should be able to, but I’ve just heard of it going wrong so many times.

    5. Mockingjay*

      If you give a mouse a cookie…

      This applicant is a big red flag. They applied; you rejected. And yet they reapply, you reject, they reapply, you reject. This person is not comprehending that they don’t qualify for the job.

      If you reach out to them, you will become their personal “in” to your company. You may be inundated with phone calls and emails. They won’t accept that your company doesn’t want to hire them; after all, “you’re taking a personal interest in me, so obviously I AM qualified.”

      If you want to give back, is there a local career center where you could volunteer to coach job seekers, offer a seminar on applications process, or provide resume critiques?

    6. Pinky Pie*

      There are two rejection letters from my 20s (mid 90s) that I will never forget. One flat out told me I wasn’t qualified for the position I applied to twice. The other told me never to email a group of employers and to spell the position correctly. Neither were great to get but both helped me grow professionally.

  36. Written Warning*

    I received a written warning at work this past week, and I’m trying to decide if I should use the appeals process, or just leave it alone.

    Here are the pertinent pieces of information, but I should mention right off the bat that that I do not want to work here. I have no future here (I wouldn’t have even before any of this happened.) This is a Healthcare organization, but my department is administrative and no other departments would use my skills and experience. I have been searching for work for seven months. I have only been here a year – I started looking before the six month mark.

    1. I made a couple of mistakes that were very visible and embarrassing to my manager. The written warning focused on these, but “embellished” to make them look worse. My manager has a tendency to exaggerate and, well … lie. She is a habitual liar; her pattern is to make a point that is valid, and then add to it with suspect information. She does this in everything from casual, personal conversations to meetings, and this is very much the style in which the written warning was fashioned.

    2. I can refute a lot of the embellishments via e-mails and screen shots of text messages, but I totally own the original mistakes.

    3. I am not required to submit an appeal in writing, but I would because I have the back up e-mails and text messages. The process involves me sitting down with my manager and the Employee Relations rep (the same one who met with me when I reached out to have the process explained; I am comfortable with her.) After we talk and I make my case, my manager has the option to leave the written warning in place, tone it down, or remove it. I do not think she’ll change anything. She tends to dig her heels in when challenged.

    4. We are a department of three. One colleague and our manager, and the manager and I work very closely together. This will make things very awkward. However, I asked the Employee Relations rep if my written appeal would need to be seen and signed off on by anyone above my boss, and was told no – this is good because further embarrassment will make my boss act out. I don’t want her embarrassed.

    5. I have reached out to attorneys, but so far no luck securing one – there’s not a lot of money to be made here. I just want to be laid off with no blemish on my record. In other words, I don’t want to have to say to any future would-be employer that I’d been fired. I want to collect unemployment. Essentially, I’d like to offer this employer the option to be rid of me now rather than have to spend the next six months documenting in order to fire me. The only down side I can see about this (aside from the reduced income and having to go on my spouse’s benefits which are costly) is that I would have no valid explanation for future job applications for why I”m not giving this boss as a reference. If I’m still employed, I can explain that the usual way: that I don’t want my current employer to know I am looking. That said, the policy here is “titles and dates of employment.” Even if I check a box saying this employer can be contacted, in theory, they do not disclose the reason for leaving.

    6. I am not applying for work in this geographic area; it was a mistake to take on this commute. I am not looking for jobs in healthcare, either.

    7. I see my choices as
    A. Do nothing in order not to provoke my manager, keep my head down and try even harder to get out of here
    B. Appeal the process in case they try to fire me; perhaps my boss will think twice rather than have her lies and poor management skills exposed
    C. Use an attorney (although I’m not sure how) to negotiate my getting laid off. I should mention that layoffs may be coming after 11/6 due to a ballot question that – if it passes – will mean necessary organizational changes.

    Sorry so long; I was hoping the numbered list format would help with that! But I’d appreciate thoughts on any of this, especially the three choices I lay out in number 7.

    1. ACDC*

      I vote for A. Hiring an attorney seems wildly inappropriate and a mega overreaction to what has happened. You’ll be escalating a situation for really no reason. Sorry your job search hasn’t been going well, but I’d say put all of your efforts into that and the right thing will come up soon!

      1. Written Warning*

        Thanks for the response. Does it make a difference that my boss is an executive director and her boss is a VP? One of the mistakes I made was broadcast to the C-Suite by her boss in an e-mail that most people agree was a complete overreaction. (He wasn’t her boss at the time; that just happened a few days ago.)

        Does it make a difference that my job is nothing like what I was recruited to do and I may have a case for Constructive Dismissal?

        What about if I did (C) without hiring a lawyer? Just negotiated the ability to be laid off on my own? I am basically cooked at this job, so I want to put myself in the best position to find a new one, which in my mind is “not get fired!”

        1. ACDC*

          I totally get the reaction to wanting to prove that you did nothing wrong, but I think you’ll come across as argumentative if you try to escalate the situation to prove a few points. It really won’t win you any friends at your job and might actually put you on a termination track that you aren’t currently on.

          Was this your first warning with them? To me it sounds like they have some areas they would like you to improve (normal), but I don’t get the impression from what you wrote that they want to get rid of you. I think if you focus on the areas of improvement that were addresses while keeping a low profile, you’ll be able to survive without getting fired until a new job comes.

          For what it’s worth, my husband also works in healthcare admin and your boss sounds a lot like his boss.

          1. Written Warning*

            Thanks for the reply. Yes, it was my first written warning here (and EVER in over 20 years of working!) The mistakes I made were visible and could have been costly (they weren’t, but could have been).

            I was also told that “people don’t want to work with me” which is kind of a death knell. Also people don’t like my tone. I have heard the “tone” comments before, and I have tried very hard to overcome that and my restingbitchface, but I still hear these things now and then. And once you hear it once in an organization, you cannot get away from it. You can have 99 good interactions, but if the 100th one rubs someone the wrong way, that’s you’re reputation. I have spoken to so many people who are surprised that I get negative feedback on tone, but their opinions don’t matter when one person does.

    2. Psyche*

      I think it depends on what you actually think will happen. I would probably appeal it if just to have it toned down and eliminate the exaggerations or lies. I would say that in the appeal (that I do not dispute the mistakes just the embellishments and would like the written warning to accurately reflect the facts). I’m not sure that you will be able to negotiate being laid off vs fired. You could offer to resign in exchange for controlling the story, but they have little incentive to lay you off. I don’t think an attorney would be helpful in this situation.

      As far as applying for new jobs, it sounds like it would be easy to explain why you left this job. The commute was to long, the job was different than described and you no longer want to work in that field. If you have enough work history without this job you could probably even leave it off your resume.

      1. Written Warning*

        Thanks. They might have incentive for laying me off. My work has dwindled, and with this ballot question coming up, they could be laying off lots of people.

        I think it would be easy to explain why I left this job, but not why this boss would not give me a recommendation.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Unless you have lots of extra cash lying around to pay for the lawyer (because the company isn’t going to be giving you some sort of settlement for them to collect from), then that’s not a very realistic option.

      I think you could go with route C on your own. Sit down with your manager and employee relations rep. Say that you are getting the feeling that the company doesn’t find you to be the best fit and you would be willing to resign on 2 conditions: you will apply for unemployment and they will not contest it, and that they give you a positive reference in the future. Get these in writing. Now, the danger in this is they could say nope, you know what, if you don’t want to be here and you’re on an action plan you can just go ahead and leave right now.

      I don’t think route B is very feasible. Regardless of any embellishments, you did indeed make the highly visible mistakes that you were put on the action plan for. You might be able to dispute certain details, but the core of the issue is the same. They are going to use that action plan against you if you were to be fired and tried to file for unemployment. If that ends up happening, you can use the documentation you have as a way to try and prove that the issue is not as egregious as they are trying to make it sound, and that may help, but I think that’s the best you’re going to get out of it.

      Route A is your safest route. Work your butt off to be the best employee you can and keep your job for now (and avoid any additional write ups or mistakes), try to make peace with your manager in the meantime, and job hunt like crazy. When asked why you’re leaving it’s simple. You have a long commute. You could even use that you expect organizational changes that will put your job in jeopardy to be taking place and therefore it is makes sense to find something more stable.

      1. Written Warning*

        I like your wording on option C – offer to resign on two conditions because it’s clear they don’t “find me to be the best fit.”

        I actually am not on an action plan, I don’t think. There was no “you must do this, that and the other thing or you’re out.” I will have to read it more carefully, but certainly it was not reviewed with me that way. I wrote to the HR Rep to get clarity on that after you posted this, so thank you for pointing that out.

    4. BRR*

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. One thing I really don’t like about most work environments is how often explanations can work against you. You want to put certain things into context when it’s better to just say ok and move on. This is more extreme than most examples obviously. The question I would ask is how much is this going to sour your working relationship? You could file the appeal and have an incredibly stressful work environment while the case is built to fire you (if it takes a long time). It’s a tough call without knowing your situation. It sounds like it might be best to leave it alone.

      The easier answer is, I wouldn’t hire an attorney. It doesn’t sound like anything illegal happened. I’m not sure about how you’re using fired vs. laid off. Laid off is usually for purely financial reasons, which as you said might happen anyways. You can be fired for making mistakes or something criminal like embezzlement. I would check your local rules regarding collecting unemployment. In a lot of places, you can still collect if you’re fired for just making some mistakes (I speak from experience). I would make sure to save that documentation you have on your home computer so it doesn’t get deleted.

      1. Written Warning*

        About saying “OK” and moving on, it’s funny you bring this up because my manager and I did have some minor miscommunications and I just said “OK, I understand” because I didn’t want to be THAT person – the one who can’t take feedback. But when she brought them up again, I asked if I could clarify and when I did, she felt so much better.

        This would be different though because I would actually be refuting some of what she wrote. The good news is that no one but her and the HR rep needs to know that I am refuting it and providing proof. She can save face if she wants to.

        Yes, nothing illegal happened here, but sometimes a letter from a lawyer can persuade people to do things the way you want. If I offer to resign, I want them to take me up on it without dragging it out.

        Thanks, I am documenting as much as I can!

    6. Autumnheart*

      For the love of God, A. Definitely A.

      I think that if you proceed with anything other than A, the only career you will torpedo is your own, in a spectacular way.

      1. There’s nothing a lawyer could do about this–getting written up isn’t an illegal act, and is strictly a matter of company policy. Whether your manager embellished or not is only a matter of opinion.
      2. Nobody is going to listen to you in regard to your manager’s lies and poor management. You’re a new hire who is on the record with making mistakes that were brought to the attention of the C-suite. The amount of political capital you have right now is in the negatives.
      3. Similarly, you have zero grounds in which to negotiate your departure. There’s literally no reason for them to accommodate you.

      If you want to leave without having a firing in your job history, quit. If you want to roll the dice and see if you can move on to a different job before they decide to fire you, stay. But you know what, even if you do get fired, it’s not the end of the world. Tons of people get fired and go on to better positions. You don’t plan to pursue other jobs in health care, and if you have other references, it won’t matter much if your immediately precedent boss isn’t one of them. But if you DO try to pursue legal action and/or try to “expose” your manager’s behavior, you’ll only make yourself look like someone who retaliates against authority when corrected for genuine mistakes, and there is no happy ending in any of that for you.

      Head down, keep looking, Oscar-worthy performance of thinking your boss walks on water, get out ASAP. With some luck, you’ll escape and have some good stories about your horrible manager to tell at happy hour. Anything else is just going to have you metaphorically trying to mud-wrestle a pig.

      1. Written Warning*

        Thank you, this was helpful. For the record, I would not be getting a lawyer because they did anything illegal, but because I would want to apply pressure for them to let me leave without the blemish on my record. The reason for them to accommodate me is that I’d be out of their hair NOW instead of the work and time it will take to get rid of me. They could easily need to lay off people if a ballot question passes, and I could just be one of them.

        But everything else you said was right on, and I do have a fear of making the wrong career move and trading the stress of being here for the stress of having no job and a lot less money.

        Heh, I’m already in line for an academy award. You wouldn’t believe how easy I made it for her to deliver this warning, which she did so poorly. I didn’t even know what was happening until I read the top of the paper part way into her delivery!

    7. ThankYouRoman*

      I’ve never seen someone negotiate a layoff, why would that benefit the company? Taking 6 months to pile up docs to say you were fired due to cause and saving a hit to their UI rates is the normal administrative route due to costs.

      You should appeal and don’t give them that rope to hang you with. Then stay on top of keeping your boss at a distance to escape without any lawyers or negotiation involved unless it’s via an employee or union rep.

      1. Written Warning*

        Thanks for the reply. I actually do know of people who left companies on their own terms when it was clear they were being forced out, but they were employed long enough to get severance. All I can hope to do is set myself up to have an easier time of job hunting.

        This organization has had three mass layoffs in the last year, and is poised to do one more if a ballot question passes the first week of November, so I don’t think adding one more person would be a hit to their UI rates. If someone you were spending a lot of time building a case against just resigned, that would save you the time and trouble of blackballing them!

    8. thepinkleprechaun*

      I’ve read some of the other replies and I 100% agree on option A. It’s unfortunate that you made a mistake (a few mistakes?) It’s also unfortunate that instead of being understanding, using it as a learning experience, and planning to avoid future mistakes, she is choosing to handle it in this way.

      You started looking for other jobs 6 months in, which makes it pretty obvious that you don’t like the job. It doesn’t sound particularly enjoyable so I don’t blame you! But, do you think this has at all colored your working relationships thus far? Again, I know it must be hard to remain positive when you’re unhappy in a job.

      Second, I don’t know if this is an option, but can you offer a written response to the reprimand? Not a rebuttal, just a professional, clear and polite statement that you understand you made a mistake, you take responsibility, and you are taking steps to make sure it will not happen again?

  37. carrie heffernan*

    Just need to vent – some of my coworkers are ALL OF THE LAZY. Like if they bothered to do two minutes of research they wouldn’t need me to explain to them how timezones work. All I can think of is Miranda Priestly from the Devil Wears Prada: The tales of your incompetence do not interest me. Please bore someone else with your questions.

    1. Ashlee*

      I was talking to my husband about some of my very lazy coworkers earlier this week. He said “Sounds like you do more work on accident than they do on purpose”. I got the best laugh out of that.

      I don’t know why but it does seem that the lazies get way with being lazy but I feel that if I slacked off, I would get asked if something was wrong. Does covering lazy coworkers count as “something wrong”?

    2. MissMonsoon*

      I have finally resorted to asking if they looked it up on the relevant search site. I mostly get questions about policy and procedure, all are available on our internal intranet.

      1. Auntie Social*

        If only there were a resource they could use, maybe someplace online they could go to. I hope someday something like that gets invented. . . .

      2. Flinty*

        How do you stay patient? Do you have a mantra? I’m in the same boat and don’t mind questions when things actually don’t make sense, but some of the questions I get are so incredibly dumb/easily solvable that I’ve started to tense up whenever certain people approach my desk.

        1. MissMonsoon*

          I go over a piece of policy / procedure in every staff meeting, both in writing and verbally. It helps them learn it and it helps the organization make sure that the policy and procedure stay relevant. Occasionally, something gets changed and there’s a whole cascade effect that admin doesn’t consider. My people are quick to point it out now. Once I changed the conversation to them serving their coworkers, it got better.

          That and I expect them to ask each other before they ask me. After months of training them to this idea, my easily solvable questions are down to about three times a week in which I either ask if they looked it up or I chapter and verse them in my most annoyed voice. I’m usually pretty easy going so any annoyance from me feels like a major scolding.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Stop making it easy for them to come to you for answers. Ask “what have you tried so far?” Send them to look it up in a company manual. Tell them to google it.

  38. Bad news today*

    I went on a work trip last week with a [very-senior-to-me-but-not-my-manager project lead] who was really horrible the entire time. She’s made clear that she sees my only potential for contribution on this project to be very low-level administrative coordination (she first worked with me as an admin), even though my current title, experience, and responsibilities on other projects are non-admin. She micromanages and second-guesses my decisions even on coordination, Even worse, several times she has given instructions that very clearly indicate I should do X, and then gets mad at me for doing X, saying that is not what she meant at all – I’ve asked family members to read the emails who have confirmed she definitely asked me to do the thing she got mad at me for doing.

    And, I just found out she may be going from “very senior to me in another department” to my grandboss in the next few months. I’m going to ramp up my job search hard, I feel like I need to get out of here ASAP.

    2. Elle*

      Well, that totally sucks. But the good news is that she isn’t your manager. Which means you can go to your manager and ask for help. I work in a similarly structured company, and being a project manager is kind of weird because you don’t ever get specific feedback on your management skills (or lack thereof). But your manager manager is there to make sure you are getting the professional development you need – and it sounds like you aren’t. So let this be his problem, he can go talk to her manager and work this out.

  39. Anon for this*

    Gave my two week notice! I’m sad to be leaving this organization, but I’m really excited about the next role.

    Someone might remember my post from a few months back about realizing that one of my new coworkers was a guy who sent me gross sexual messages a few years ago. HR was no help to me because the incident didn’t happen while he was working for us, though my boss has been incredibly supportive. I’m trying to decide if it’s worth doing anything about it now–(I’m not going to do this, but I keep thinking about printing out the messages and leave them on his chair on my last day.) I will mention my disappointment with HR in my exit interview… with HR. That part will be fun. He’s really friendly with another new coworker who’s a recent grad and my former intern. Do I have any responsibility to her to say “hey look out for this guy?” I’ve seen nothing that would be inappropriate, but I see red anytime I see them joking around together.

    2. Auntie Social*

      On his chair? I’d tape them to his office door, and the copy room walls, and the conference room. They can’t take away your birthday.

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      Likely an unpopular opinion and it’s based on some assumptions here….I assume the gross sexual messages were likely received via Tinder or some similar type dating app and may include pics of the guy’s anatomy…just a guess…seems to be popular among the gentlemen these days. But what people do in their private lives, and certainly what he did in his own time prior to his employ at your current company, are not relevant to his ability to do his job currently nor does it make him a danger to other ladies, barring some additional information that isn’t being provided.

      What you find gross sexual messages might be welcome or just laughed off by another female. And for all you know, he’s grown up and matured and no longer sending such messages to anyone. I’d mind my own business and move on to your exciting new role. I also wouldn’t mention it to HR because it really isn’t actionable by HR and it would appear to me as an attempt to sully his reputation in some way.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        Wow, what an assumption! Anon for this provides absolutely no details about their prior interaction with this guy—certainly not enough to guess how the messages were sent or what they contained. It also doesn’t matter what platform they were sent on. Just because I match with a guy on Tinder doesn’t mean I’m automatically OK with receiving explicit and disrespectful messages.

        It also doesn’t matter what other women would think about getting the messages. OP received them and they were uncomfortable. How someone else might have reacted doesn’t invalidate that.

        Anon for this, no advice, but sorry about that gross guy and congratulations on your new job!

      2. Friday afternoon fever*

        PS people get fired alllll the time for things they do in their private, off-work lives that their employers don’t like.

        And if I have an uncomfortable interaction with someone outside of work, and then that person shows up as my new coworker, my discomfort doesn’t magically go away. In some ways, it’s worse, because I no longer have full control over when and whether I interact with this person, and I’m also expected to treat them courteously and professionally even though they might make my skin crawl. So.

    4. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      I don’t think you necessarily have a responsibility, but I’d say something. If she reacts negatively, you’re leaving anyway. I’ve always appreciated a heads up about creepy coworkers.

    5. thepinkleprechaun*

      Yeah, so as gross and distressing as it might be, I don’t think it’s within HR’s authority to do anything. What exactly would you have them do? Fire him for something that they have no documentation or proof of that did not happen in relation to this employer in any way? I think they’d have a lawsuit on their hands honestly.

      If I were you, I would have talked to HR about the prior uncomfortable experiences, but more to let them know that you might have reservations about working directly with this person, and how they would handle that situation. That is a more reasonable request than “fire this guy because he did something creepy a few years ago”. It’s also great that your boss is supportive, and I would hesitate to give that up because of one coworker.

      I had a coworker who absolutely disgusted me, and I actually thought about leaving for a minute, but then decided not to. I was there first! I also saw that I had a future at the organization and this individual clearly did not. The person ended up leaving when there were clear signs from upper management that they would likely be fired due to incompetence. Now, your creep might not be incompetent, who knows. But a good boss is not always easy to find! I totally respect your decision to leave though, if that’s what you feel is right for you. Everyone is different and every situation is different.

      I wish you the best in your new role, but I would also highly advise AGAINST doing something so drastic as to print out explicit pictures and leave them at the office. That is extremely unprofessional and should that get back to your prospective employer, I wouldn’t be surprised if they withdrew the offer. What if someone else walked in and saw them? You could actually be on the hook for sexual harassment at that point. If you do something like that you might embarrass him, but you will end up making yourself look dramatic and unprofessional in the process.

      On telling other women about the experience, I support 100%. Some may see it as gossip, but as women we need to look out for each other, and I know I would appreciate the heads up. Again though, I would be very careful to do this in a professional way. Maybe say something like “Just so you know, That Guy sent me unsolicited explicit photos a few years ago, before he started working here, I would keep him at an arm’s length professional distance if I were you”.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If you have a link to the original post with the longer version, it might end speculation here.
      If it was bordering on the illegal or violent, I do think it might be worth a heads-up to your friend, as an “if you’re considering seeing him outside of work, give me a call outside work first. It’s NSFW.”

  40. huh*

    My employer provides free soda and admins used to be the one designated to stocking up the fridge with them. Shortly after I came on board, most of the admins were either let go or shifted to different roles. So for a while, I was the only one stocking up the fridge. After 2 months of this, I stopped because I quit drinking soda. The fridge has been empty for a month now and yesterday one of my coworkers asked me why I won’t stock up the fridge anymore with an annoyed tone. I work in IT and he knows this so I am confused.

    1. Myrin*

      It’s great that you’re confused because that way, you can channel your confusion right back at anyone broaching this fridgy topic: “I’m confused! I’m in IT and only temporarily acted as the fridge stocker directly after the old admins left. I don’t know who’s responsible for the fridge now but why don’t you ask [appropriate person]?”

    2. Temperance*

      I would ask him why he doesn’t do it.

      If you’re a woman, I urge you NOT to do housekeeping crap like this.

      1. huh*

        Yes, I am a woman and I did it because I figured my coworkers would also contribute when the admins stopped. I was super wrong about that apparently.

        When my coworker asked me that question, I just asked him what he meant. He said he always saw me stock up the fridge on Fridays and figured it had been tacked onto my list of responsibilities. I laughed at how he came to that conclusion and told him that it’s not my job, never was my job and that I no longer drink soda.

        He seemed more annoyed after that. Can’t tell if it’s from my response or because he’s seriously THAT inconvenienced from having to refrigerate his own soda.

    3. AnonandAnon*

      I have to laugh at this because we have people submitting tickets to our helpdesk system for non-IT related requests ( help us move these heavy boxes, the remotes for the TVs in the gym need new batteries, and on and on). I even brought these ridiculous requests up with my manager who agrees, but never does anything to squash them. I just ignore them, and refuse. I’m not paid close to 6 figures to carry heavy boxes and replace remote batteries. Of course we have the one guy on the team ready to help anyone with anything, so of course his actual work falls by the wayside.

    4. BadWolf*

      “I was only doing it because I was drinking soda. I stopped drinking soda. The boxes are over there.”

    5. LCL*

      Free soda and he can’t be bothered to put some in the fridge? As my mom would say ‘Do you want me to drink it for you too?’

      1. Rey*

        Wait! He was asking you to put soda in the fridge?! When I read your post, I thought you meant you used to buy soda at the store and put it in the fridge. If it’s just put soda cans in the fridge, this is the height of stupidity. I would play up your confusion and offer, “Oh, we’re not picky, you’re welcome to put soda in the fridge” to underline his own capability to get what he wants (cold soda) without having to talk to you. This is ridiculous.

        1. nothemomma*

          ‘It’s so easy that even a man can do it!’ is the comment that came to mind. but that’s sexist. now, if i said its so easy that even a can do it!’ that would be a helpful comment!

    7. ThankYouRoman*

      LOL what s doofus!

      If he can assume it was your “duty” because he “saw” you stock every Friday (why is he lurking so hard to notice this???) he should assume it’s no longer your job.

      I’m suddenly appreciative even more so of my coworkers. Nobody is assigned anything for chores like restock. If I’m found doing it, they say “thank you for getting that this time!” not “y u no do these tasks that are nobodies actual jarb just a cool perk?!”

  41. Myrin*

    I know that I’ve mentioned the second-in-command (SIC) at one of my part-time jobs before on here who isn’t quite as bad as a nightmare but, like, that’s really only because I’m only there twice a week and just a simple shelf-stocker who doesn’t really see much of her generally (but when you do, hooo boy). Anyway, the short version: she is harsh, grumpy, always visibly annoyed, a stickler for rules even in situations where they don’t make sense, lacking in manners, and clearly enjoys putting those around her down; in short, a total delight.

    We also have two other workers who are similar to that, but I don’t really have much to do with them and I seem to have grown on one of them after I loaned her two euros a few weeks ago, but yeah, they are the kind of people where even if you just innocently meep in their direction by accident, they’re going to aggressively devour you. Did I mention I’m glad I’m not around them much? (Also, with all three of these people, I thought in the beginning that it was something about me but I’ve been hearing more and more from every side that literally everyone else thinks of them just like I do.)

    Anyway, one of those two – not the one who warmed up to me – shares not only her attitude but also some of her features and her surname with SIC. I always figures she must be an aunt of some kind. Well, a week ago I found out from a coworker I’m close with that she’s actually SIC’s mother!
    And now I’m wondering, musing really – is this family somehow genetically predisposed to horrendous behaviour? Or did rude daughter get her lessons in human interaction from rude mum? It certainly doesn’t matter in the end when they’re being insufferable again but really my only thought upon hearing of their relation was “Yeah. Figures.”

    1. HBucket*

      May I ask… is “meep” a euphemism for fart? (I’m not really British although my moniker might make you think otherwise!)

      1. Myrin*

        Oh no! I’m literally giggling at that. It’s just a random word I kinda made up (although not really because I’ve definitely seen it in fanfics before) for when you make a little sound in someone’s direction, which is often described as a “meep” in my language. For all that I don’t like SIC, I think she’d be right to annoyed if someone farted in her direction!

      2. Drop Bear*

        I’ve not heard it used for that (I live in Australia but have a lot of family in the UK). I don’t think Myrin is the UK though as she/he talked of ‘euros’.

      3. Rat in the Sugar*

        I always thought “meep” was the sound the roadrunner made from the old Warner Bro cartoons.

    2. Ron McDon*

      I would say that we are taught how to behave from watching/listening to our parents/careers.

      If the Mum is mean and abrasive, it makes sense that her child(ren) would be too.

      My Dad has some awful behaviour flaws, which I am well aware of and try really hard not to copy, yet sometimes find myself modelling quite unconsciously.

  42. Matilda Jefferies*

    Still waiting to hear if I got an interview for the internal job I applied for on the 10th. I know two weeks is not a lot of time in Staffing-world, but in Matilda-world, it’s taking forever!

    Meanwhile, my ten year old has decided that when she is a manager, she’s going to make a point of communicating with people who apply for jobs, so they know as soon as possible whether or not they’re getting an interview. Maybe I should send her to the hiring manager for this job to ask for an update. :)

  43. Tigger*

    Hi guys!
    I need some advice about dealing with a coworker. I am a woman in her mid 20’s and this coworker is a male in his mid 60’s. He has said some…. unsavory things about other nationalities, races, and walks of life this week and it’s really starting to wear on me. Usually, I just tune him out but it’s getting harder to not let him get to me, especially after he told me his feelings on an MLB team hiring a new manager who speaks Spanish. I not going to repeat the exact statement but he used derogatory terms for Latinos (never heard this word before and had to look it up) and implied that if they don’t understand English they should not be allowed to play.
    Any advice?

    1. Tardigrade*

      Wow, that’s awful. Over the years I have dropped all my GAFs about this kind of thing and would say something like, “I don’t agree with your comments and don’t appreciate hearing them now or ever again.” Especially after repeated instances. But something, um, nicer might be, “I hope you don’t think I agree with you.”

    2. Morning Glory*

      Is your company large enough to have an HR department? There are a lot of problems where you should talk to your coworker first, but I think this is one of those things to go straight to HR about.

      1. Tigger*

        Yes, but we are a satellite office so they just let us do our own thing/ forget about us. The on-site “HR” is the accountant because they handle the benefits and non-interpersonal HR roles

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          Don’t you love that! “Yes, we have HR! An HR folder …. in our shared files… oh, you mean a person? Who is trained? And accessible to our employees as a resource? Well, we have Sam who does the payroll on the side”

    3. BadWolf*

      For “in the moment” — an “I don’t understand what you mean, can you explain it?” sometimes reminds people that the thing they’re saying isn’t really appropriate when they have to explain the joke/word/phrase. “That’s gross” has worked for me sometimes as well (depending on what was said).

      What’s your relationship with your manager? Do you think your manager would brush it off as “Oh he’s old and set in his ways?”

      1. Tigger*

        I’ll have to use that script.
        Our manager is his age and doesn’t like to confront people about issues not related to performance. However, the coworker is retiring soon and I have the gut feeling that he is being pushed out.

    5. Troutwaxer*

      I don’t know that I have any great advice for you, but I do hate that kind of thing and it makes me mad as hell. It’s ugly and unnecessary. You should report him to HR or to your manager, and depending on whether your circumstances allow it, make sure he understands how ugly his speech is and how uncomfortable it makes you. *Additional ranting deleted.*

    6. M. Albertine*

      You’re probably going to have to say something; your previous silence means he now thinks you are a receptive audience to this type of thing. Depending on how much you want to engage, try out some of the following scripts (hat tip to Captain Awkward):

      “Wow, that’s really racist.”
      “I don’t want to hear that kind of talk.”
      “Do you seriously believe that?”
      “What do you mean by that?” (This one the key is to act super-confused and make him explain himself until he quits.)
      “Did you mean that to be offensive, because it was.”
      And my favorite: “I’m surprised you feel comfortable saying that.”

      Be matter of fact, and keep repeating it. “I don’t want to hear it” is hard to argue with.

    7. Waiting At The DMV*

      What are your relative levels of seniority? And how common is this sort of language in your workplace? Does he say these things in front of senior people, and if so how have they responded?

    8. Alex*

      If you think they would take action, it is not an overreaction to take this to HR. This is just not something any office should tolerate. That it is not directed at you doesn’t make a difference–you shouldn’t have to be around that kind of hate at work.

    9. msroboto*

      Yeah my GAF’s on this kind of thing is long gone. I call people out on stuff like this and not quietly either. If the whole cube area hears so be it.

      I worked with a guy said some offensive thing about Hispanics. I don’t remember exactly what I said but he knew never to say anything like that again. A person in our area thanked me because her kids father was Hispanic and felt like he was attacking him and her kids for being Hispanic. I did not know any of that. Just calling him out on it.

      I guess he thought that it only applied to one group when he went off on Jews. I am a non-religious person that was brought up Jewish. HELLO What the Actual FFF. He got another earful and was pretty sheepish after that.

      I did pretend that I had another group in my family when he went off on that group.

      A lot of my message on this is I don’t care what you think about group X or Y I just never ever ever want to hear that kind of disrespectful talk.

      It kind of calmed down after that. He knew he would get called out.

  44. Deryn*

    Yesterday my boss surprised me with a card and a six-pack of my preferred soda (I’m not a coffee-drinker, so she knows I have a diet soda each morning as my caffeine-jolt instead) as a thank you for “all my hard work lately”. It was super sweet of her, I’m still full of the warm-fuzzies from it. There’s been a lot on my plate lately, as I’m currently the only full-time member on our team and have been training/managing 6 new students and part-time staff in addition to running three studies (and a few more run-of-the-mill obstacles like difficulties procuring the equipment we need, etc). We’re trying to hire another full-time person, but we’ve been having a lot of typical red-tape hurdles. My boss has been super supportive though, frequently checking in about what I’ve got going on, if I need help prioritizing/delegating, verbally letting me know she appreciates me, and keeping me in the loop on her efforts to hire another person and get other difficulties resolved. It’s been a tough go of it here for a bit, but I’m feeling good about it today :)

    2. Boo Hoo*

      This is so nice. My boss got me pickles once. He knows I LOVE this one brand of pickles. He got me 4 jars. It’s funny how those simple more thoughtful things can really make your day.

  45. Dance-y Reagan*

    Any tips for starting with project management/time tracking software?

    My job doesn’t really fit into current company structures that well, so for purposes of this new software I’m being lumped into a department where people bill their time to certain projects, but my own workflow isn’t broken down that way. I’m struggling to quantify things that span multiple projects or are just general company CYA initiatives, and The Powers That Be are throwing their hands in the air and saying “Just do it”.

    I’m also having a hard time keeping track when I get into a rush of emergencies and have to put out fires with no down time between them. I don’t have time to jot down notes and remember who I talked to about what when people are literally screaming over the phone about how their XYZ is broken and they’re losing money by the minute.

    1. peachie*

      I don’t think this is an ideal system, but my work situations sounds similar and Trello works for our small team. We have cards for every project broken out into category lists, and TimeCamp (a time-tracking software) integrates directly, so you can just hit the “start timing” button on the card and add everything up at the end of the week. We also add every email we receive/send relating to the project to the card–calls/meetings, too, even if it’s just “met with Drs. X and Y” as a reminder. I just keep it open on one monitor and do my best to update it while the emails, phone calls, etc. are happening. It’s not perfect, but it helps.

    2. Elle*

      I have to track every minute of my time at work by project for billing too. Some people just use an excel sheet they leave open and add start and end times as they go.
      I have better luck setting calendar appointments for myself. So 1-2, actual meeting. 2-3, work on action items from meeting. I don’t do it right in the moment, but I go back and do it for myself before I leave at the end of the day. Each project gets its own color code on my calendar which gives me a good visual to screen shot and send to people.
      Also, for my own sanity I limit email responses to 2 hours a day, one when I get in, half hour after lunch, half hour before I go home. I categorize emails by project and then respond in that manner. If people call me I ask them to also send me a follow up email so I can add it to my to do list. Otherwise you’ll be stuck fighting a million fires and being unsuccessful at all of them and things will ultimately fall though the cracks.
      If an activity spans multiple projects, I’ll divide it out. So 1/3 to A, 1/3 to B, 1/3 to C.

    3. Gumby*

      I keep an excel spreadsheet and note the time when I change tasks. When I do concentrated work on one project my time gets reported there. If I do something that 2 or 3 projects will use I might split the time (worked 2 hours, 2 projects use it = 1 hour reported on each project). If I’m doing a task that crosses a bunch of projects or is merely for the company in general and not a specific project, it gets reported under general & administrative. Sometimes “I switched tasks so quickly and frequently and there is no untangling it” gets reported to G&A and sometimes estimated amounts get reported if I have a sense of what portion of my day went where. (If I have nothing useful to do it goes under overhead. Or if it is company-required stuff like interviews, paperwork, etc.)

      So maybe ask for appropriate reporting categories to be set up. I suspect the “Just do it” is a response to “we don’t know how to solve it and don’t want to think about it” but if you do the thinking for them, maybe “setting up a catch-all ‘project’ in the time card system” will not be such a high barrier.

  46. Never*

    Manager: Come up with a list of goals based on the job description for the level above you.
    Me: The only thing I haven’t done is X. Will there be an opportunity for that?
    Manager: No.

    …I’m so confused.

    1. Space Turtle*

      Well that’s experience, not goals. Goals are about performance, future work etc. Maybe look up what a SMART goal is to help you think.

  47. BRR*

    I’m currently in the “my manager knows a coworker’s work stinks but isn’t actively managing them and it’s affecting my work and I am having to pick up their slack so after several conversations about the topic I’m trying to make this my manager’s problem” situation. I’m concerned there might be two repercussions and I’m not sure how to deal with it.

    One is that I think my problem solving skills are being questioned. I’ve spoken with my coworker and my manager several times and the next step needs to be a big picture conversation that my manager needs to and won’t have with the person. My manager knows their work is an issue and has openly said I should be doing more to fix it while giving me zero authority to do so (it has basically been me giving unsolicited feedback to a peer which they shockingly haven’t liked).

    The second is that I’m worried this is making me look like I’m not a team player since I’m trying to let this dumpster fire burn now. I’m being asked to do this person’s work because I can complete it quickly and accurately but I don’t have the time to keep doing it. I’m pushing back but I know my manager just wants me to do the work so he doesn’t have to address the real issue.

    I’m worried my reputation is in decline with my manager, is there anything I can do? Is the answer “my manager sucks and isn’t going to change?”

    1. NicoleK*

      I so can relate. I’m currently debating whether I should tell my Manager how incompetent my coworker is. Manager is aware that coworker needs a lot of support and hand holding, but I’m not sure if Manager is aware of how much team resources is sucked up by incompetent coworker.

    2. Mazzy*

      I’m going through this now. It is coming to a head because it’s no longer about me wanting or not wanting to help, two things happened and eventually will to you, and then the situation will be out of control.

      One, eventually there will be a problem that you can’t fix because it’s your coworker’s area, totally.

      Second, you will have some sort of mental break where you will no longer care or care as much and will be physically repulsed at the idea of helping.

      And maybe a third, there will be an oversight or error so big that your boss is going to end up looking like an idiot, and then he will care.

    3. Auntie Social*

      Is there anything important that you can’t get to because you’re doing coworker’s projects too? Send a memo that clearly shows you are a team player and you want to do the XY project, it’s just that there’s a bottleneck here. Maybe you and manager can trade something less critical for coworker to do in exchange for you finishing Co’s work. Ask manager to prioritize your tasks, because by having to take on Co’s work that means you can’t do everything, and assign non-time sensitive things to Co. Or, does manager want the acknowledged dumpster fire to continue so Co can be let go? Because working BRR to death is not an option.

    4. ..Kat..*

      I would just push the coworker’s work back on my manager. Do you think your manager is stupid enough to fire the person doing the work?

    5. Anonforthisone*

      I’m in a similar situation and I did wind up telling my manager about my coworker’s incompetence. Her mistakes were increasing my workload significantly and also impacting others. We work with children and it was impacting kids and other staff members that she wasn’t doing her job correctly. I was advised by my union to focus on 1-3 concerns when speaking with my boss and to highlight how the problems with the co-worker were impacting my work and also anything I’d done to try to solve it. They also advised me to frame it as asking for advice from my boss about what they next step should be. This supposedly would make it seem less like tattling and more like problem solving, although my boss still did not take me reporting the problems very well. After my meeting with my boss I documented everything we talked about and his advice about the follow-up by email. If the problem continues after I’ve followed up, I’m going to have a follow-up conversation with my boss and document that. Your HR department will be able to support you better if there’s a paper-trail of everything you’ve talked about with your boss and what the response was.

  48. Sarah*

    We hired a new director, that I report to, and two weeks in, I hate her. She’s a micro-manager, very abrasive when speaking to me and my peers (but very friendly and nice to those on her level or higher), and passes around a lot of blame for problems that she doesn’t even understand yet. I’m dealing with it fine, no one in that position lasts long anyway, but what I’m struggling with is what to say when other people ask me how it’s going with her or what I think of her. I’m flat out honest with my peers who all feel the same way, and honest but diplomatic with her boss (who was my direct boss before she was hired). But I can’t be honest with those who report to me or those in other departments and also can’t just smile and say “Oh, she’s great!” So far I’ve just said “Oh, I’m still getting to know her” but after a couple more weeks that won’t fly anymore.

    1. S.Wench*

      Actually, I think continuing to say “Oh, I’m still getting to know her” with a fixed smile and buttoned lip will say plenty. You have my sympathy.

    2. BluntBunny*

      You could say I’m used to the more hands off approach of previous boss and she’s very hands on so we will both have to try and adapt to each other’s working style.

  49. Anon for this*

    I just want to vent a little about my colleague who doesn’t tell me about foreseeable things they’ll need from me until the last minute. Like, they’ll know ahead of time that they’ll need assistance with something that I need to physically be in the office to do but won’t bring it up until the day of, sometimes in the moment. What if I had to leave early because I was sick? What if I was away from my desk? These are usually time-sensitive requests, and we’re not currently set up so that anyone *but* me can help with them. We really need a contingency plan. Or just a plan, period.

    2. BadWolf*

      When they come to you with these things, have you said, “Hey, next time could you let me know in the AM/day before/etc? I would hate to be gone for an appointment or half day vacation on this time sensitive thing.”

    3. Rey*

      I would bring it to your manager as soon as possible. Something like, “I’m concerned about making sure that coworker gets these reports when needed. I may not always be in the office at the last minute–can I cross-train (propose someone here) so that we have a back-up plan when its needed?” This gets what you need (a back-up report runner) without complaining about coworker who won’t request the report sooner and requires minimum thought or action on manager’s part since you’re proposing a solution.

    4. WellRed*

      Remember, his lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on your part. I’d go to the boss and explain what’s happening.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      They’re not going to stop doing this until they have a reason to do so. You have to give them a reason. Is it possible for you to be unavailable next time?

  50. Everdene*

    This might be a bit random but couls you please tell me what your organisations hierarchy looks like. Sometimes questions come in or comments are made and I’m confused as to high up someone actually is.

    As am example we have:
    CEO
    Directors/Assistant Directors of… (ie Marcomms)
    Heads of … (ie Marketing)
    Manager (ie Print Media Manager)
    Workers/Assistants/Advisers (all tje worker bees basically).

    1. H.C.*

      CEO
      Other C-Suites / Executive VPs
      Senior VPs
      VPs
      Associate VPs
      Executive Directors
      Directors
      Assistant Directors
      Senior Managers
      Managers
      Non-Management Staff

      & yes, there have been attempts to flatten this structure & consolidate some of these titles…

      1. wingmaster*

        CEO
        President / Other C-Suite
        VPs
        Directors
        Managers or Lead [insert title here]
        Assistants/Workers

      2. Flinty*

        Somehow it’s funny to me that there are 3 Adjective VPs and one just plain “VP”. That’s a lot of VPs!

        1. H.C.*

          It’s a large non-profit (~5,000 FTE + contractors), so lots of layers & also lots of title inflation (incl. some manager/director titles that don’t oversee anything… which is a whole other can of worms)

    2. Aurora Leigh*

      At the company I work for we have:

      the CEO/owner
      managers (dept heads – there are currently 3)
      supervisors/group leaders
      everyone else

    4. Sunglasses*

      CEO
      COO
      C-suite
      Directors
      Managers
      Non management staff – there’s some more break down in this level based on level of expertise

    5. Isotopes*

      CEO
      Seni0r VP/C-Suite
      VP
      GM
      Director
      Manager
      Senior Supervisor
      Supervisor
      Senior Coordinator
      Coordinator
      Senior X
      X – worker bees

    6. ThankYouRoman*

      Owner
      CEO
      Manager of Dept
      Department head (only one here, hey dats me)
      Shift Lead
      Production/Customer Service Reps

      It varies drastically on size.

    7. Someone Else*

      CEO
      COO
      All other C
      Senior Directors
      Directors
      Senior Managers/Senior Other Things
      Managers
      Other Things
      Associate Other Things

      We don’t have anyone who is an Assistant Anything but if we did it’d be one above Associate.

    8. Gatomon*

      Owners (we are a co-op so our customers own the company)
      Board of Directors
      CEO
      VPs
      Directors
      Managers [not all departments have]
      Supervisors [not all departments have]
      Senior staff [very rare, mostly for technical staff for pay purposes]
      Staff
      Interns

      1. TechWorker*

        (Late to the thread, but)

        Engineer
        Team Lead
        Manager
        (Software Architect – there’s one of these and they’re probably around a second line in terms of pay/responsibility))
        Second line manager
        Director (inc CTO, CFO)
        CEO

    10. Everdene*

      If it’s not too late, thank you everyone for replying! I can’t believe how many layers of VPs some organisations have. HC in particular, I imagine some of those titles become meaningless when you include the title inflation. Directors also seem to be a level that can be right at the top or relatively low in the pecking order. Thanks again.

  51. Karen from Finance*

    This is partially a hypothetical question. I work closely with a two-person team, a manager and a direct report, that has been performing poorly. My manager oversees this team and while frustrated with their performance, hasn’t been super direct with them about the quality of their work. As part of a recent reorganization, the manager position is now open. We specifically want an external candidate who has outside experience and because the only possible internal candidate is the direct report ,whose work quality is poor.

    Is it better to let the direct report know from the start that they won’t be considered for the position or is it a jerk move because they might not even apply? I know ideally it would have already been communicated to them that we’re looking for improvements but I think even with direct feedback, some people would still apply.

    1. Rey*

      Oof, I think your manager has seriously failed their employee. They know their employee is low-performing, but they’re not willing to give feedback that could help improve in meaningfully ways and give them a chance at eventually qualifying for a promotion.
      Yes, I think it would be a jerk move to tell them they won’t be considered if they haven’t brought up applying with anyone. If they specifically ask you for your advice about whether to apply, I think that’s an opening to have an honest and frank conversation. Same with if they do apply. So if you see that coming, I would write up a specific action list of improvements to make to qualify for future promotions. And if you think that their low performance has already ruined their chances at ever being promoted in your organization, I think its better to be honest about that too, instead of giving them false hope.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I would find it kind of demoralizing to be told I won’t get a job that I wasn’t even planning on applying for. Just my opinion.

    3. Auntie Social*

      The manager should say something now about their work quality and the improvements he’s looking for—I wouldn’t mention the new position. Then if the employee does apply you have this conversation to refer to. Don’t let the manager keep kicking this can down the road to be a problem for the new manager.

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      Jerk move because they haven’t even applied. You don’t want to crush someone and dump all over them when they haven’t even expressed an interest in it. Let the job post and if they apply, have an honest and conscientious conversation with them about why they won’t be moved forward in the process, and use that as a time to talk about what their goals are and what improvements you would need to see/actions need to be taken in order for them to achieve their goals. Then it’s not a disciplinary session but instead a coaching session.

  52. Jessen*

    New job starts monday! I’m kind of sitting here making vague excited noises.

    One slightly silly question. I don’t really do the whole “jeans and a polo” look that the office seems to have going on. Frankly, I don’t really like jeans/slacks all that much. I’ve always been the skirt and a nice top sort, with a somewhat “victorian widow” edge. Less of an issue where I am, but I’m worried it’ll come off badly if I’m dressed too formally. Am I just overthinking things? Is there a good answer to being told I can dress more casually?

    1. Amber Rose*

      You’re overthinking. We’re a pretty casual company, but sometimes people come in a little more dressed up and nobody says anything. My former supervisor always wore dresses. Dresses/skirts can be casual too, if they’re just like cotton and not frilly.

    2. LBD and Diamonds*

      No you’re not overthinking it; it’s a valid concern. I worked in an office where I loved wearing heels but I did ‘stick out’ among older women who preferred flats. There is something about fitting in, fashion wise only in the level of dress, that helps you bond with your new co-workers.

      Are you talking about a ‘modern mourning vibe’ or just a preference for dark colored clothes? You can totally do skirts/tops in a jeans/polo environment and not be formal. Dress it down: only one of these – skirt, top, shoes, jewelry, or make-up – is the ‘formal’ element that reflects your style. Great top, chill skirt. Awesome skirt, calm top. Fab jewelry, quieter clothes.

      Ultimately your fashion makes you, you and makes you happy. So play with it. Have fun at your new job! I just started a new one and it seems each one finds me in a new fashion mood. I’m definitely the more fashionable one here, and I hate shopping and fashion (lol)

      1. Jessen*

        I definitely do read as “office goth.” I can tone the jewelry down, but I do tend towards a lot of frilly black tops and long skirts. My big one is just – I really don’t like pants, other than soft stretchy stuff that’s not at all work appropriate. So I basically don’t own pants, and I honestly really don’t want to put myself through shopping for pants. Me and polos aren’t often friends either – it doesn’t seem like there’s really any female equivalent of jeans and a polo that looks good anyway.

        1. Old Biddy*

          I used to be the office goth in a mostly male company (think startup company). As long as you can get to the female office goth equivalent of business casual, it shouldn’t be a problem. As someone else suggested above, start by wearing mostly calm items (e.g. frilly shirt but calm skirt/shoes/jewelry) and read the room. I had a number of pairs of flowy velvet or emboidered pants that I wore with less frilly black tops.
          Many people don’t care one way or another but worry if someone’s dress code might make everyone be expected to emulate it. That’s unlikely to happen with goth, but might be a concern if you were a guy wearing a blazer and button-up shirt everyday.

          1. Jessen*

            Yeah, I’m going to be the only woman in the office, as well. That’s informing some of what I’m thinking.

        2. GRA*

          I wear dresses almost exclusively, in an office of women who all wear pants. I got a few comments at the start of my job, but it’s what I feel comfortable in! Now, if I wear pants, THAT gets comments. I say wear whatever makes you feel comfortable and don’t stress too much about it.

          1. Washi*

            Same! I hate pants and wear mostly skirts, but sometimes I’ll dress the skirt down by wearing a nice drapey t-shirt with it instead of a real blouse.

        3. Joielle*

          I’m the office goth too! Can you switch the long skirts for something more like a pencil skirt and tights? Even in a stretchy fabric, I think a good pencil skirt (or even A-line midi skirt) can keep the whole outfit safely on the “office” side of office goth. I do wear dress pants sometimes, but my go-to look is a pencil skirt, blouse, and cardigan, all in shades of black or dark grey.

          1. Jessen*

            Maybe? I feel like that might be a step backwards. I’m less worried about the “office” side and more about looking too “business” in an office where slacks and a button-down would be considered dressed up.

            1. Not a Mere Device*

              How about a denim or other casual skirt and a casual top, like a long-sleeved t-shirt? Denim has the advantage of fitting with your co-workers’ jeans.

              If people say “you know, you can dress more casually” you can tell them that you just like skirts, or go in the “what do you mean, denim isn’t casual?” direction.

              1. Jessen*

                I’m having a hard time picturing what you’re seeing? The mental image I get with “denim skirt and long-sleeved t-shirt” is more cultist than anything else. (Seriously, I grew up in religiously weird land and that was the classic combo.)

        1. Jessen*

          Yeah, they’re not really cut with women in mind. I’m short and busty, and polos often seem to emphasize that fact. Especially since they’re not usually a good shape/fabric for sizing up for the bust and the rest of it ends up looking baggy.

    4. Former Retail Manager*

      Victorian Widow! I love it! I think we have similar styles. Nothing constructive to add. The others seem to have covered it.

    5. Kat in VA*

      My company is business casual, but about the most casual I get is cords with knee high boots and a blazer. Some days I’ll wear a suit, most days I’ll wear some kind of dress or skirt/blouse/blazer combo. I like dressing up for work. It puts me in a different mindset. So even though it’s totally ok to wear jeans and a nicer tee, I up the ante and wear nice stuff.

      Interestingly, folks around me – including executives – seem to be stepping up their clothing game too. Monkey see, monkey do? :)

      1. Kat in VA*

        Hit submit too soon. Your personal style is your personal style, and as long as you’re going going over-the-top (think goth clubwear), you should wear what makes you happy and feel professional!

        2. Jessen*

          Hah! No, I get you. I’d say an ideal winter outfit for me would be like:
          – Long black velvet skirt
          – Black boots
          – Plain black fitted t-shirt, preferably light shimmer
          – Sheer black ruffled blouse
          – Something lacy for my necklace, or a pair of standout earrings

          Depending on the environment, I sometimes might have an ear chain on, or random makeup colors. I’m generally quite modest though, even in my free time (a goth fail, I know).

    6. lobsterp0t*

      Having read your other comments, what about something fashionable yet in an appropriate colour scheme – palazzo pants and cropped, wide leg trouser styles are pretty on trend, and you can find them in a huge range of colours. They would definitely go just fine with the type of tops you’re referencing, while not being to business-y – they’re also soft and comfy and might feel more office-appropriate than a long skirt?

      Depending on the style even jumpsuits can look really professional at work – I have two that I wear with a long cardigan, and whatever shoes work for me that day. I work for a large charity and have to meet with a lot of local government types so it’s kind of that middle space of “casual but still looks nice” and is appropriate to the type of place I work.

      1. Jessen*

        Honestly, at this point I think I’m more looking for ways to deflect comments and stuff to do with what I have (which doesn’t include pants or t-shirts) than things to get. It’s becoming clear to me that I have neither the time nor the spare emotional bandwidth to go pants shopping right now.

    7. Jane*

      There is absolutely no reason you must wear pants. A skirt is not necessarily more dressy than pants. I have some very casual skirt or dress outfits and some very nice pants outfits.

      I also work in an office with no dress code whatsoever. I swear anything from jeans and an old sweater to a nice dress. It doesn’t matter. Different people dress differently based on their personality–for men, there’s lots of jeans and polos, or even jeans and T shirts with writing, but also for some men, khakis and a casual buttondown. It depends more on their personality more than anything else.

      Women are all over the map.

    1. Drew*

      They definitely do when the CEO who forced the open office plan over the objection of almost all of his staff gets annoyed when people in the open office area are talking, right after he tells us he wants us communicating and collaborating more.

      One time, he said this to an employee who had already given notice and the reply was “You have an office with a door on it. Go use it.” That person is STILL my hero.

  54. OldJules*

    Last day at work. It’s bittersweet. The company and people are amazing, but in order to grow, I need to move on. It was such a hard decision too. Let’s hope for a successful last day. I documented, listed and trained everyone on the team to enable them to function without me. I will miss them a lot.

    New job, yey! Hopefully, I achieve what I set out to do.

    1. OldJules*

      I am shockingly not as excited about my new job as I should be. At least it feels that way. That’s mildly frustrating :(

  55. coffee addict*

    Since it’s coming up next week, does anyone work-appropriate Halloween costume ideas or guidelines? This is the first time I’ve worked in an office where people dress up and I don’t want to be too over the top, but I’d like to do something that has some thought put into it. Thanks!

    1. Amber Rose*

      We had a group of people come in as highlighters. They wore neon colored shirts, gloves and leg warmers and bright wigs. I thought that was neat.

      I once wore all green and clipped a couple strings of pumpkin decorations to myself and went as a pumpkin patch.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      I always wear my Gryffindor quidditch sweater, which is actually fairly subtle. From far away it just looks like I’m wearing a red and yellow thick sweater. Students get really excited when they see it up close and realize what it is.

      I do leave the Nimbus at home.

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          I have baked cookies with the sole purpose of saying “Have a biscuit, Potter”…perhaps I’ll see if I can find a cat before Wednesday…

    4. wingmaster*

      I work at a clothing brand, so I’m making my hangtag/pricetag costume with the company logo..haha. I am imagining it as Justin Timberlake’s SNL costume with the big gloves and boombox to go with it.

    5. Red Reader*

      I will be wearing a long red dress that, by itself, is appropriate to our business casual setting. Then, for the Halloween party portion of the afternoon, I will add a gold waist cord, white gloves, and my Mickey Mouse ears with attached sorcerer hat. :)

    6. Admin of Sys*

      I tend towards things you can easily switch to general wear, jic an important person stops by. I usually stick to solid black, and include a cloak or something – the accessories take it up to ‘dressing up’ but w/out the cloak or hat or cats ears, it’s just dark clothing. But if you’re wanting an actual costume, you could do something like the Hogwarts themed clothing Minevera mentioned, or similarly subtle things. I’ve got a casual enough workplace this year, I’m planning on digging up my ‘Stark Industries’ shirt and arc reactor.
      But I’d be careful year one – I started at an office where everyone ‘dressed up’ and then I found out that ‘everyone’ was ‘another department, spurred on by someone who had recently retired’ and I was one of only two people on the floor in costume.

    7. curly sue*

      I’ve got a Stargate team jacket that works really well thrown over olive slacks and a black t-shirt, dogtags optional. I don’t have my black army boots anymore — they died and I replaced them with maroon Docs — but it’ll have to do.

    8. CupcakeCounter*

      I’m going as Rosie the Riveter. I got a pair of coveralls on Amazon but jeans and a denim shirt also work. Work boots, lunch box, and a red bandanna for the hair.

    9. Dance-y Reagan*

      Wear a casual blue dress. Add a headband with horns when appropriate. You are “devil with a blue dress on”.

    10. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I’m going as Hermione Granger. If I ditch the cloak, wand and Gryffindor tie, it’s just a kilt-style skirt, matching sweater and white blouse.

      1. Nana*

        My first year at a Jewish non-profit, I forgot to ask if anyone was dressing for Halloween (it was also ‘casual Friday’ that year). So I wore slacks and a T-shirt from my prior job, at an Episcopal school. Worked either way!

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      They’re attempting to revive the lunchtime costume contest. I was thinking about digging out one of my old Ren Faire outfits… but honestly I’m so burnt out by constant deadlines that wouldn’t have been tight if someone up the river had planned better that I may skip.
      Either that or take some inspiration from TheDisneyBound and wear black & purple and talk like Malificent.

  56. Mbarr*

    No advice needed, but thought I’d share a silly story. Last week I had an interview for an internal job posting. I was working from home that day due to a bad back, but had to drive into the office for the interview. While prepping – I decided to print a copy of my resume and cover letter to bring with me… Except instead of printing to my home printer, I sent it to my office’s printer… So my resume/cover letter ended up sitting out in the open (I haven’t told anyone I’m applying for this job) for 30 minutes till I could drive over, sneak in (in my interview clothes), and move the applications to a shredder… Pretty sure SOMEONE must have seen them.

    The interview itself went really well – but I’m pretty sure I could have bungled every single question AND sacrificed a small woodland creature on the interviewer’s desk and he still would have had a pleasant smile. So who knows how it’s going to turn out.

  57. beanie beans*

    I am in a pickle. My boss has been really hard on one of my coworkers lately and it’s been steering towards just mean lately. I have to overhear their interactions, and I want to talk to my coworker to let him know I’m sorry he’s getting such harsh treatment, but I’m not sure if I should.

    He is young and quiet and I don’t want to make him embarrassed or uncomfortable. But I also don’t want him to feel down about his job. I don’t want to impact either of our working relationships with our boss, but I feel terrible letting him take his treatment alone.

    What would you do? Or what would you want if you were my coworker?

    1. Tardigrade*

      That depends on how mean we’re talking here, because reporting your boss might be the right call.

      Generally, though, a friendly “how are things going” is a good opener. That way he can share if he wants to. And you could offer help or pointers with his projects, if that’s doable for you.

      1. beanie beans*

        I like that. I don’t think it’s to the point of reporting my boss yet. It’s more generally condescending and rude ways of helping him learn. Implying he’s not smart has been the recent trend.

        Maybe rather than say something about how our boss is treating him, I could focus on how I think he’s doing a great job and has been quick to learn a lot of new stuff in a short amount of time.

        1. Deryn*

          I was just about to suggest focusing your own interactions on his strengths! Provided that you DO see areas of strength, I think it would be very kind to make a point of mentioning those to him. Also, if there was a ever a particular area you saw he was struggling in or that you know is a hot button for the boss, maybe you could find a way to help support him there – e.g., offer to answer questions, read over a report before it’s sent off, etc, provided that that’s something you’re comfortable with/capable of doing.

      1. beanie beans*

        Thanks – I think I had to write it all out to see the path forward and I think this makes sense.

  58. LadyByTheLake*

    Thoughts from the commentariat please — I currently have my own consulting business — have had for seven years. I have one primary client that in the last three or four years has accounted for about 90% of my work. I work very closely with them and they treat me like I am member of their company. I’ve done well in my consulting business — the pay is good, but I have to deal with my own benefits/expenses/accounting/IT and critically, I constantly deal with the fear that tomorrow all the business will go away (although it hasn’t for seven years). Primary Client is now hiring internally to do a lot of the work that I’m currently doing for them and I’ve applied (with the support of the people who I work with). The trade off is that it is a LOT less money, but it is stability, benefits, working with people and a company that I already know and like. Are there others that have made the transition from being a consultant for a company to moving to work with the company? Other trade offs to consider?

    1. ACDC*

      How much do you know about this company’s culture? Would you even want to go to their office every day? They might treat like a member of the company right now, but having them directly employ you will definitely change the dynamic, in my opinion (I’m also in consulting).

      Would it be worth while to seek out new clients to start filling in your time that is being lost by this company? Obviously that’s a Titanic amount of work, especially given how much of your workload comes from them, but might be worth looking into.

    2. Anon From Here*

      Is it actually a lot less money? Right now (I assume) you’re not doing your own withholding, you’re just seeing these fat consulting checks. But you’re paying your quarterly taxes, your administrative overhead, your health insurance and other insurances, your lawyer and accountant, and so on. Do the math on what you’re truly taking home after you take all that stuff out. Then you can better see how much less — or possibly more — you’d be paid as an employee.

    3. A Consultant*

      I would do the detailed math on the money side, to see how much of an issue that really is. I mean, factoring in the actual cash expenditures: how much of your hourly rate as a consultant is going to SE Tax (i.e., employer share), business insurance, health insurance premium (whatever would be their employer share), etc. But also factoring in the non-cash expenditures: how much of your hourly rate is covering the time you take the self-employed version of PTO (i.e., no one pays you directly for vacation or sick days). That would make the salary comparison more apples-to-apples.

      I once made that transition – went to work for a client in an in-house position. It lasted less than a year and I was back to consulting. (The biggest reasons were idiosyncratic to the company.) But one thing I did notice was that people in the organization viewed me and my opinions differently once I was in-house. As in, less likely to listen to me or my expertise. And I’ve heard this from other people in my field, that when a “consultant” says something, it has this (sometimes unearned) prestige, that makes people listen to them. When an in-house person says the same thing, it can be dismissed because, “Oh, that’s just Bob being Bob. What does he know?” I did not believe it would happen when I was literally the same human being. It totally did. And it was frustrating.

      The other thing I discovered, mostly in retrospect, was that I had a hard time adjusting how I interacted and spoke with the team. It’s subtle, but people will notice the difference if you are interacting with them “like a consultant” vs. like a co-worker. It’s hard to describe, but I think it’s a vibe of being ever so slightly removed from the situation – observing and facilitating people, rather than being a full participant. I’ve since observed someone else move from consultant to staff, and I could totally see it.

      In all honesty, I personally am most wary about the major shift in culture from being your own boss to being an employee. Everyone is different on this front – some people find the stability and reduced pressure a huge relief. But I’ve come to learn I am no longer happy being an employee, because it comes with so many strings and giving up control. While it’s stressful being the owner/boss, and there is uncertainty, at least I know that the way I work is up to me. I control my destiny. I joke that being self-employed, sometimes my boss makes a decision I don’t like, but I always UNDERSTAND why she made that decision. In your shoes, I’d be pounding the pavement for other potential clients to try to stay self-employed. But that is mostly due to what I’ve learned about myself along the way.

      Good luck!

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Interesting things that people are bringing up — thank you very much for the thoughtful responses. Currently I work from home and many people at the company have no idea that I am actually not an employee of the company. Afterwards, I will still work from home and I will be an employee (which many people already think I am). To the extent that I am not an employee currently, I think that this is one of the weird situations where being an employee will help because right now sometimes some folks think “LadyByTheLake can’t tell us what to do, she’s an outsider”– then a colleague has to intervene and tell them “yes, do what she said.” This would take that step out of it. I would also have more power to effect change directly rather than having to work through others to do what I am already doing. Good point about the vacation — right now I rarely take vacation because I’m always worried that it’s money out of my pocket.

  59. Not a Unicorn*

    So my question is if I even have a chance with this or not.

    I had a 6 month contract at one of my dream companies last year and it was even better than I expected. However, my contract wasn’t extended (I was told my boss wasn’t busy enough to have an assistant). That made me sad but what can you do? Since then I’ve applied to several similar positions at the company but never heard anything. I also got the feeling though that I did lack some skills in the position (not what I went to school for) so I’ve decided to enroll and get an associates in a related degree.

    My question is this: the same company is posting internship positions for the summer. Would I even have a shot at this or would they not even consider me as it’d look like it’s going backwards? (Like from teapot builder assistant to teapot builder intern). Thanks!

    1. ACDC*

      If you’re open to doing an internship, I say go for it! If they have any concerns about why you’d want this position, you can easily explain that by expressing your interest in the company and wanting to get a foot in the door. Nothing wrong with that at all.

  60. Tired student teacher*

    Right, so I’m getting pretty stuck and circular in my thinking, so here we go:
    I recently (end of August) started a new part-time job that seemed perfect to combine with my university course at this moment. I thought I had a good idea of the impact the job would have on my, together with my re-starting an internship for uni, but it turns out I overestimated myself.
    So what ended up happening is that within a month, the new academic year started, complete with internship, my job started, and my partner and I moved in together. Which would be a lot for anyone, but probably hit me even harder, since I’m on the Autistic spectrum (which is something all parties are aware of). I didn’t notice I was spreading myself too thin, until I was on the verge of a breakdown last Friday, and got sent home by my internship to rest.
    Now, for me, the course and the internship do have priority over my work, and I’ll have to learn to prioritise myself over the concept of pleasing everyone, but that’ll be a long-term thing.

    I’ve been home for a week now, and I’m starting to feel more rested. Where before I was on the verge of breaking down, now I think I should be able to technically handle work again. I still have a week to go before I go back to my internship (who are very willing to work with me to get me to a successful end, they told me they’re seeing a great teacher, but they want to get me there without a burn-out). But I’m not well-rested yet, and I have no clue when I will be. For example, yesterday, I went to the city centre for a couple of hours, and that was enough to give me a massive headache and essentially take me out of the game for the night, which is why I’m certain I’m not back to normal yet.

    Monday they’ll be calling me again, asking for a checkup, but I have no idea what to tell them. Is ‘I’m getting better, but not there yet, I don’t know when I’ll be ready to restart my work yet, and I want to prioritise my college education and internship’ a valid answer? And should I keep trying, or should I go back to my disability benefits (which are specifically to help out while I’m in uni) even though that’ll half my income, which means that my partner and I will have to adjust our lifestyle quite a bit? I’m stuck, so any advice would be helpful by now.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Since you’re at university, could you talk to your advisor or a counselor? They could help you with managing all of the new changes or helping you to prioritize yourself. Plus they’ll understand the ins and outs of your academics and internship.

      For Monday, could you say something along the lines of “I’m getting better, thank you, but I’m still recovering. I have some appointments this week to figure out my next steps. I’ll update you by date to let you know what my plan is.”

      Feel better soon!

      1. Tired Student Teacher*

        I can’t believe I forgot that was an option. I’ll have to mail him anyway, considering that I’ll probably need some extra space in my internship as well, so I can actually share this with him in that meeting too, and look into what may or may not work from the perspective of school.

        Thank you for the advice! (And if I were a Gryffindor I’d definitely come to you ;) )

    2. Rey*

      I’m glad that you have been able to take time and get better. It sounds like maybe the time commitment that you made in August is too much, but that you don’t want to leave all together because of impact to your income. Before their call on Monday, think about how many hours you could realistically work there, and propose that to your supervisor. And if you don’t know already, I would check on the details of your disability benefits-do you only qualify if you aren’t employed, or if you are under certain number of hours/week. I hope this helps.

      1. Tired Student Teacher*

        I started at 20 hours a week, which means an open availability for 22:30 hours each week, and since we were understaffed, all hours would be used. Hell, because of that I ended up being scheduled outside of my availability as well, although that was taken care of by letting my supervisor know right away (planning is done off-site, so he had nothing to do with it). I already arranged that starting November I’ll be going down to 16, and technically less isn’t an option, although I’m not sure if I can do 16 by now. I might mention it, and see if they can work with me, since it’s medical reasons by now. Thanks to a lot of recent hires the problems with understaffing are being solved as well, so there might be space. Because you’re right, I don’t want to quit. There’s the fact that I took on a responsibility and I want to see it through, but also the part where I don’t hate the job, and if my brain wasn’t such an ass I wouldn’t mind doing it until I graduate/find a job in education.
        As for the benefits, it’s income based, rather than hours. I basically get 25% of a full-time minimum wage job, and technically am allowed to make another 25% before they start cutting into it. I’m not getting anything right now, because at 20 hours I made too much, but with less hours that might change, and because the change is so recent, I won’t have to re-apply, since I’m still in the system.

        Thanks for the tips!

  61. KatieKate*

    I need more work pants that are somewhere in between “dress pants” and “leggings.” I love the look of pants from Express, but the fit is totally off for me. Does anyone have suggestions for pants that fit well on someone with more of a hourglass shape? (My waist is a 2-4 and my hips/thighs are a 6-8.) Is there a style I should be looking at? Should I just stick to dresses?

    1. MMM*

      Old Navy pixie pants possibly? I find them super comfortable–stretchy enough that I really don’t even feel like I’m wearing dress pants

      1. grace*

        I love old navy pants. I’m hourglass and petite with almost the exact measurements of OP, and these have always been super flattering. They’re nice and thick but feel like leggings ;)

        Though to be fair, my office is so relaxed that I DO wear leggings to work …. frequently.

    2. Deryn*

      I’m in the same boat, shape-wise, but with the added challenge of being petite with proportionately short legs. I’ve found some nice pants at The Limited (I like their “exact stretch” styles, I think one of the pairs I’ve liked was the Drew fit) and Banana Republic (I have some that I think are Sloan and Jackson fits, both in kind of a slim/straight leg cut). I still need a belt, but they’re much better than pairs I’ve had in the past!

    3. Jessen*

      I have a lot of luck with Loft pants, as someone with wide hips/behind and a smaller waist. Look for their Julie fit pants.

      1. School Inclusion Specialist*

        Same. And I don’t know what the name of the style is, but it has pockets that are are angled so they don’t stick out and make my hips look bigger.

      2. Alex*

        I was also going to suggest Ann Taylor (especially Outlet!) and/or Loft. They have different fits for curvy vs. straight figures, although I can never keep track of what the names of the various fits are so you just have to look in the store!

        I’m larger than the OP but with a big difference between my hips/thighs and waist, and almost every pair of pants I have that aren’t jeans are from Ann Taylor Outlet.

    4. Minerva McGonagall*

      I’ve had luck with a number of pants from NY&Co! I’ve gotten some that are stretchy and pull on like leggings but look perfectly professional. And they come in lots of colors!

    5. Bowl of Oranges*

      I have a similar shape. I typically have to wear a belt and/or have the weird gap in the back. These are closer to dress pant than legging, but they’re comfortable to me: Lee Modern Series Curvy Fit Maxwell Trousers (I got mine from Amazon). They fit perfectly in the thighs and waist!

    6. INeedANap*

      It depends on how much money you want to invest in pants, but I personally tend to buy pants that fit my thighs and have the waist taken in at a tailor. The only thing to note is that sometimes you can lose a little length on pants that are meant to sit lower on your hips, so you’d want to take that into account if you’re taller.

    7. catsaway*

      Look for ‘curvy’ fit pants. Ann Taylor and Loft both have ‘curvy’ and ‘strait’ cuts. When I tried on pants at AT I was a size smaller in the curvy cut vs the strait cut because I didn’t have to size up in the waist to fit my hips. You might find that you’ll just have to buy pants that fit in the hips/thighs and get the waist tailored (which I’ve also done).

    8. Admin of Sys*

      If you can stand the texture, I personally love the travel fabric pants from chicos. They’re more of a drapey than tailored look though, so ymmv.

    9. Elle*

      Honestly, for the ‘dress pant leggings’ I’ve had the best luck on Amazon. I like the 89th + Madison Millennium pant best.
      My go-to’s for actual dress pants are White House Black Market and NY&C. WHBM is the clear winner though, they’re marketed to curvy grown up women, and quality really does matter in these things – they just fit great. I’m trying to remember the name of the style I like best, its one of their basics with a tapered leg.

    10. Sleepytime Tea*

      Oh my god the I just got the BEST pants in the world that are just like you’re describing. They are from White House Black Market. They aren’t super cheap (think $80 – $100 when not on sale) but they are insanely comfortable and shockingly flattering. I included a link to the ones I just got. I’m curvy and even though they say “slim fit” they are definitely not like the “skinny” fit of jeans and stuff. It just means they are not the trouser shape. Anyways, find a White House Black Market near you if you can and try them out because they are AMAZING AND I NEED MORE.

    11. M. Albertine*

      Did you try the Editor line? I’m hourglass, too (waist gap is atrocious in 95% of pants) and none of Express’ other lines fit me, but I live in Editor pants.

    12. Dance-y Reagan*

      Dana Buchman Slimming Pull-On Pants from Kohls. They have a stretchy waist but aren’t super matronly, have a slim-fit ankle that shows a ballet flat nicely without looking too tapered/dated, and come in all the standard neutral colors.

      I pay $25-30 a pair by waiting for sales and using their coupons/points system. The short length fit me well (I’m all torso and no legs), but regular and tall are also available.

      These are not cutting-edge trendy by far, but they’re “blend in” pants that work well as a base with tunic sweaters, riding boots, and other layering pieces.

    13. Rocketship*

      Betabrand!!! They’re a mostly-online retailer out of (I think?) San Francisco, and their whole schtick is Dress Pant Yoga Pants. I have several pairs and it’s honestly somewhere between leggings and pajamas comfort-wise, but totally appropriate for a business-to-business-casual look.

      YMMV depending on budget, since they are (in my opinion anyway) a smidge on the pricey side… but soooo worth it. They’re well-made and long-lasting too.

      A word of warning though: Their “Regular” length is hella long. Like, I’m 5’7″ and mostly made of leg, and I still needed to hem off a good 4 inches on my last pair. Double-check your measurements against what’s listed on the site, and forget what size you think you are. :)

    14. KatieKate*

      Thanks everyone for the responses (and keep them coming!!) I’m making a list of all of these to check out :)

      1. JR*

        Check out Nordstrom’s Halogen line. I got a great pair of “work leggings” – I was skeptical when the woman working there called them that, but they’re super comfortable and totally work appropriate. I think they were $70. They haven’t held up as well as other, more expensive Nordstrom’s stuff, but I wear them a lot and they still look pretty good.

  62. magnusarchivist*

    Would like a check-in on this — my boyfriend’s new temp job at a benefits agency (they…help companies match with benefits providers? idk) insisted that he take his work-issued laptop home every night. The reason he was given by the person training him was that it was because of theft concerns. So, basically they’re saying that his car, home, commute, backpack — all of those are safer than their office?

    This just screamed DANGER to me — who is responsible if it gets stolen or damaged while off of company property? what about client data security? — so I strongly encouraged him to get clarification in writing. He didn’t get any in writing, but he asked his boss (different from the person training him) who said he could “lock it somewhere in his office.”

    Is this a normal practice for temps and I’m just out of the loop? I don’t know for sure that he has client data on that laptop, but I assume so since he was hired to work with billing & financial records. (Also this company is about to be audited, so you’d think they’d be really on top of information security…)

    1. ACDC*

      That’s super weird of them to require a temp to bring their computer home every night… I don’t think it screams danger in any way, but it is weird. However, it sounds like your bf already got a pretty good solution in that they’ll let him leave it locked up in the office at night.

      1. magnusarchivist*

        Thanks! Maybe I’m just used to places less comfortable with risk. The fact that “taking company property + company data home with you” was the default, not the exception, threw me.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I don’t know about temps, but my Dad has to take his work-issued laptop home with him every night. (also has commute on public transportation). He has to carry one of those fobs with the changing password and I believe he has separate internet set-up than the normal home wi-fi if he does need to use his work-issue laptop from home…

      I could be wrong, but based on what he’s said, I think the argument is less about security for my Dad’s position as for “if you’re sick, but we still need you, we want you to be able to access our secure systems/need access to our software” or “if something comes up and you have to work from home, etc. we want you to be prepared…”

    3. Jack Be Nimble*

      During my tenure at a benefits company, temps’ lap tops were locked to their desks to prevent them from taking them home to prevent equipment and data theft. Your boyfriend’s company has a weird setup, but I don’t know that it’s an obvious danger warning!

    4. foolofgrace*

      It sounds pretty normal to me. I’ve been a contractor — temp — at many jobs and I ALWAYS had to take my laptop home with me in my backpack. I wish I didn’t have to lug it around but oh well, it’s the price of having the job. I just don’t leave it laying around, like in the car. If the company insists that the laptop be taken home, then they are responsible if something happens to it.

    5. GhostWriter*

      At a previous job (though not a temp job), I had to bring my work laptop home every night. No actual files or data were saved on the computer so if it was destroyed or stolen nothing would have been compromised. I may not be saying this right, but I had to logon to the company’s VPN in order to do any work and access the servers my files were on. You couldn’t get to the documents, e-mail, programs, etc. couldn’t unless you entered my username and password. Maybe your boyfriend’s laptop is set up the same way?

      1. GhostWriter*

        Forgot to add: The reasoning behind taking it home every night was that we could then work from home if needed if we were sick, car broke down, got buried in snow, etc. and it was apparently more secure than everyone leaving them at work.

        I wouldn’t worry about it. :)

  63. College Student*

    Hello. I’d like some advise on a recurring topic at my job… I am payed the least the company can legally pay me, and work the most hours they can legally make me work, and overtime is the culture (tho not always paid). My issue is: there’s mandatory gift exchange for a few holidays a year (and monthly “not-mandatory-but-highly-encoraged for birthdays) and some parties or celebrations with specific dress codes. All of those require that I spend money on stuff that I’d rather not, because I’m in a really tight budget. How can I get out of spending on this things without compromising my image in this company? It seems like it’s used to build tem spirit or something of the like, bit it’s really demoralizing to me to have to take from my grocery money to give gifts to people I usually wouldn’t bother to… I did get out of the birthday gifts this month but was told “it’s kind of mandatory because the owner likes to have everyone participating, so just put away some money each week and you’ll be able to pinch in”. Help please?

    1. ACDC*

      So many questions… Are you exempt or non-exempt? I’m confused how you’d be making minimum wage and not be compensated for OT. Unless by minimum they can legally pay you, you mean the salary cut off or whatever for exempt employees to not be eligible for OT.

      1. Job hunt
      2. Job hunt
      3. Job hunt

      Ok, but in all seriousness, I don’t blame you for not wanting to participate. This sounds like overkill with the celebrations that require employee participation like that. If you really feel like you need to participate, can you get something small from the dollar section at Target, Dollar Tree, or some other place where you won’t have to spend more than $1 on something?

      1. College Student*

        Thank you. I am not American, so the laws aren’t the same about OT, BUT they are indeed obligated to pay me for it, they just don’t (open secret in the company), they make you clock out and continue to work.

        I can’t get anything for a dollar because contributions to birthday girls are paid in cash to the one that organizes it, and it’s a fixed amount, as is the other gift exchanges, to “make it fair gifts”

        1. ACDC*

          Ah nuts! Well there goes all of my suggestions… Except for the job hunting, I would definitely do that. Especially because of this “open secret,” that’s shady AF.

          1. College Student*

            Yeah, I posted to get some perspective on if I was being unreasonable or if this was a problem worth leaving for. Thanks a lot!

    2. Lumen*

      Start applying to at least one job a day. I’d have better advice about this if you hadn’t already tried talking to people about not doing this. But you did, and you were told essentially “suck it up”. And I’m not okay with that, and I don’t think you should be okay with that. You are not paid enough to keep up with the gift culture in your office, and when you’ve spoken up and said “this is a hardship for me”, they made it clear this is the hill they’re willing to die on.

      So get out.

      1. College Student*

        Thanks a lot! It’s really, if I were being paid fairly (and honestly wasn’t so overworked), I’d really not mind participating, but as I have this problem, I can’t believe no one else has it. Time to work on my resume

        1. WellRed*

          So I am guessing this is largely cultural (possibly to where you live, but maybe just to the company?). Because, awkward though it is, use some variation of, “I’m sorry, it’s simply not in my budget,” said pleasantly and repeat if necessary. As to your reputation in this company, well, they are shady and don’t pay you properly. Think about that.

          1. College Student*

            I did exactly that tho, it was met with “its not really much, you just should budget better, if you save some each week you can…”

            It’s my first job in my field so I’d like to make good references

            2. ..Kat..*

              If you are truly at the bottom of the salary ladder, tell the person bothering you “You make more than me. Don’t tell me how to spend my money.” Probably too snarky.

              The OT without pay when you should be paid – is bad. Definitely look for a new job. How do you feel about clocking out and leaving? (as opposed to staying and working more)

            3. Lumen*

              Yeah, the “you should budget better” response is SO disrespectful and inappropriate. They have no idea what line items are in your budget.

              Also, yeaaah: having you clock out and continue to work is illegal nightmare fuel and you need to get out of there ASAP.

    3. Elle*

      I don’t blame you for not wanting to participate. Its unfair.
      But, if you’re new and looking to move up in the company / get good references, this is kind of one of those “cost of doing business” things, like paying for work clothes or transportation. Their expectations may be unreasonable, but not living up to their weird expectations will reflect poorly on you because they’ve all bought into this weird culture and you’re the only outlier.
      Can you try offering to contribute in other ways, like being the person to walk around and collect or to go out and do the shopping or bake the cake, etc? If you’ve been there a year, can you ask for a raise?

      1. College Student*

        I’m new and looking for a good reference from this job, yes. Unfortunately I can’t contribute in other ways because we don’t organize anything, there’s a designed person to do that and we just pay her.

        I’ve been here a year but in my country you do not get raises unless you’re promoted, just cost-of-living adjustments. Even tho I do the work of a level above me, it’s been said that a promotion is not a reality for at least another year if I go above and beyond

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      Next time the collection plate comes around: “I’m really sorry, it’s just not in my budget. I know that the owner considers this kind of mandatory, but frankly I have personal needs that have to be attended to first. I’m sure you understand.”
      Next time the gift exchange comes up (if you don’t want to participate): “I’m really sorry, it’s just not in my budget. I know that the owner considers this kind of mandatory, but frankly I have personal needs that have to be attended to first. I’m sure you understand.”

      If someone pushes you again and says that it’s the owner that insists on it (which honestly, I’m not 100% sure I believe), you may even just say “I would be happy to speak to him/her about it if necessary. I’m sorry, but I really have my own bills and things that I simply can’t afford to take money away from. I can’t imagine the owner would prefer me to spend the money that’s supposed to pay my electric bill on gifts, and I can’t imagine my coworkers would feel good about me coming up short on rent.”

      1. College Student*

        It is actually the owner that makes a point of everyone participating believe it is his way of trying to create a good culture even though everyone is overworked and underpaid. I’d rather not go into details of my budget with f

      2. College Student*

        It is actually the owner that makes a point of everyone participating believe it is his way of trying to create a good culture even though everyone is overworked and underpaid. I’d rather not go into details of my budget with this admin because she already tried to tell me to “just save X per week /don’t spend on y”. I guess I need to keep saying I can’t do it?

        1. valentine*

          College Student, if you pay, you may end up worse off, in a cycle where you don’t eat/can’t sleep/become ill/can’t work. Keep saying no, with the same phrase, like, “My wages can’t cover this,” but no details. Don’t rush in to fill any silences. Let it get/be awkward. What happens if you don’t clock out or if you leave after doing so? People who are happy to treat you like this may not provide a good reference, no matter how well you do.

  64. anonymoose*

    Hi everyone,
    I need some advice please! I have a coworker (whom I’ll call Sally) who is just out of college. She’s 22 and younger than most of our other coworkers, and she lives with her family, who is incredibly well-off. If it matters, she did not grow up in the US. She spends every moment of her day talking about her “boyfriend,” who is still in her home country and is apparently also “very rich,” as she puts it. I don’t think I’ve ever heard her speak about anything other than her boyfriend, in non-work related conversations. The other day we were doing some mega millions math since we were all in a pool, and we said the value we would be getting if we won (something like 50 million each) and she said “oh, my boyfriend has more than that. I don’t need the lottery like you guys do.”
    She’s a very nice person, but she is coming off as rude, childish, and grating to everyone else that constantly has to listen to her flaunt her boyfriend’s supposed wealth. Whenever anyone says anything about it, she gets very huffy and defensive, says “why would you say that?!” starts crying, and then leaves. How in the heck do I tell her to cut it out without upsetting her? Frankly, I’m tired of hearing about it as are all of our co-workers.

    1. Myrin*

      I don’t think “without upsetting her” is an achievable goal here – she doesn’t sound like someone who doesn’t get upset when things don’t go her way. As long as she actually stops doing the annoying thing – and I agree that this sounds hugely exasperating and eye-roll-inducing – she can cry and stomp off as she wants. I really think you need to be firm in this and show that you won’t be intimidated by her childish tantrums.

    2. shep*

      Yikes. If she’s having such a violently emotional reaction at less straightforward suggestions she change the subject, I feel like there’s no way, no matter how kindly you couch it, to say anything without upsetting her.

      I admit that this isn’t something I’d mention to her if I were in your shoes; I’d just remove myself from the conversation rather than say something. But I’ve also been in conversations where I CAN’T remove myself, so I’ll take a leaf out of my old dog-training manuals (thinking Pavlov here, because his techniques are wonderfully suited to humans as well) and ignore the undesired behavior/reward the desired behavior. So in response to all of the rude/childish things she says,

      I’d probably be like, “Yeah, that’s great. OH, that reminds me, have you seen X or Y yet on Netflix/read this book/seen that work memo?” even if that totally DOESN’T remind me.

      It’s a bit transparent, but I’ve often found that redirecting a person’s attention rather than shutting them down completely has worked for me pretty well. I don’t like confrontation when I don’t have direct skin in the game, which I realize isn’t always ideal, but maybe throwing in a much more neutral, conversation-friendly non sequitur would work for you as well.

      1. shep*

        (I would, however, be tempted to be like “CARE TO SHARE THE WEALTH THEN??” in response to her comment about not needing the lottery. YA GIRL’S GOT TO PAY OFF GRADUATE LOANS.)

    3. Lumen*

      I like a good, dry “…okay, Sally” in situations like this, and then everyone goes back to the part of the conversation that isn’t rude.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes, or a bland, “how nice for you” “how nice for him” and then back to work convo. Otherwise, though, tell her to knock it off and let her get upset.

    4. Rocketship*

      You mention she’s from another country… is there any possibility she doesn’t realize what she’s doing is rude? It might be worth pulling her aside and sort of gently telling her “Hey, I’m not sure if you realize this, but in the US it’s considered impolite to talk about money – especially talking about having lots of it. I realize this might be different where you grew up so I wanted to give you a heads-up.”

      Framing it as a cultural difference rather than something she’s doing wrong might help head off some of the crying/defensiveness. I’d imagine at least some of that is due to the fact that a) she’s being called out in front of a group, for b) something she (possibly) doesn’t understand is rubbing people the wrong way.

      Then again, as others have mentioned, she might get upset anyway. She’s allowed to feel however she feels about it – that doesn’t mean you have to put up with it. At least you’ll have given her an out – whether or not she takes it is up to her.

    5. LCL*

      I wonder if the very rich boyfriend back home even exists. If her situation is so peachy, why is she working with you all? Don’t ask her that. Just say whatever Sally and go back to work.

  65. Quiet today*

    We just got notified that the administration has decided that the annual service awards ceremony has been canceled, permanently.

    No more handshake with the Mayor while we get our certificate and pin/pen/plaque/clock/whatever. Just a certificate sent through interoffice mail and quoting, “Beginning this year, employees reaching a service milestone will receive special recognition from the mayor and have their names featured on the staff website.”

    Ostensibly, this is a money saving move; around the office here, it’s being seen as one more indication of how this mayor really doesn’t give a shit about the rank and file. Yeah, she makes the appropriate noises about appreciating us, but that’s pretty much it.

    Four years to retirement. Four years to retirement. Four years to retirement…

    1. ACDC*

      After reading your first line, I assumed this was something like The Dundies from The Office and thought “wow, you’re in the clear!” But then I kept reading, and that’s super annoying. Sorry you have to deal with that.

    2. HBucket*

      Oh wow! I am going to start calling my Grandboss “The Mayor” now, because you just so described something he would do!!!

  66. Mazzy*

    I am home job hunting instead of working. How productive, dear employer!

    Things have been coming to a head in my job, where I’ve been having to do parts of a VP’s job for years with little credit, though I got good raises. We’re in a phase where we clearly need more leadership and higher skilled workers, but we’re already top heavy – on paper. But if those folks aren’t doing the job, then lower level people need to pick up the slack.

    I had another meeting with my boss about this this week, and then when he was off yesterday, I got pulled into a meeting where a Director who has nothing to do with the back-end teapot analysis and compliance and financials I deal with was lecturing another highly paid individual contributor on a project he wanted done. A project that makes no sense and would be very expensive and has nothing to do with his area. It is 100% obviously his area.

    I heard a few times in that meeting that they don’t get why there is more than one of me at the company because “most” companies (actually, none) have less of me. Such BS. I’m stunned. I’m planning on asking my boss to hire someone, and this VP who owns a fraction of the company is going to pretend we aren’t necessary, meanwhile one of his very highly paid employees makes mistake after mistake after mistake and gets off scott free while I pick up the slack.

    I’m physically repulsed by the job at this point and I feel like I’m being a doormat when I do work, because it’s going towards bonuses and dividends to people who don’t respect me and tell me I don’t need to be there. Also, being 40 and being either ignored or talked to like I’m an Assistant is getting freaking old!

    Hopefully the job hunt can go somewhere. That’s a whole other story. When I was a $30K/year employee, I could job hop because you weren’t as skilled at any one thing and people looked at your potential, not your history. But things are different now.

  68. ACDC*

    My husband has been trying to get an internal promotion for a couple of months now. He has a good relationship with the HR person overseeing the “hiring committee,” but the issue we’re having is the timeline. Originally the final interview was scheduled for Oct. 5. Then a few days before that, HR person reached out to my husband and said they would need to reschedule for Oct. 12. Same song and dance, that interview also got cancelled, but another interview wasn’t explicitly scheduled at that time. Husband reached out to her again last week, but she was out of town for a training event. He’s going to call her again today to get more info.

    To be fair, nobody has done the final interview yet, so it’s not as if they’re blowing him off. And they have to coordinate the schedules of 10 people for this “committee,” and 4 of them are coming from out of state.

    I guess my question is: how should he continue to follow up without seeming annoying? He desperately wants this promotion (and I want it for him too), so you could say we’re a little antsy.

    1. Elle*

      I totally feel you, its so tough when your company doesn’t have the same sense of urgency you do! But, I think its helpful to keep in mind that everything will progress at the same pace regardless of how often your husband follows up. That’s just the nature of the beast.
      When I was dealing with an internal hire, one thing I really loved was that the hiring manager always scheduled a follow up meeting. Then he met with me on that date, whether or not he had a real update for me. It helped me relax and know that he cared about moving forward with me, regardless of whether things were moving as quickly as we hoped.
      Can your husband start requesting follow up calls? For instance, when the HR person asked to reschedule could he have said “sure, but do you mind if we have a quick 5 minute phone call just to get an update on the timeline you expect?” Or “do you mind if I follow up with you on X date to find out about the progress?” and then send her a calendar appointment for a 10 minute phone call.

      1. ACDC*

        I like that idea a lot about getting updates on the timeline! Because right now the timeline is really up in the air.

        He applied for this same position almost a year ago, but was turned down due to lack of experience. That was actually how he got his current job with them. They called and said, “We REALLY want you for this position, but we really feel like you need some more experience before we can give it to you. Would you be willing to accept position X and then reapply for this position again?” I so hope it works out this time around.

        1. Elle*

          Fingers crossed for you! Just remember – “I don’t know” is usually genuinely “I don’t know” not “I know but don’t want to tell you because we’re going to deny you.” HR is usually fairly good at not wasting people’s time or getting their hopes up. But, I so feel you on not wanting to wait around on a promotion forever.

  69. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I was recently asked/assigned to take on some additional work that is analogous to what I’m doing right now but for another division. This work was intended to be split between me and a peer. So far, I feel like the split is more 70/30, with me doing the majority of the work, but I’m ok with that. My peer and I are transitioning the work to us from another colleague.

    This morning, a co-worker was telling me– in confidence– about a meeting she had during which our boss started praising my peer. My boss included, “And he did [this part of the project] for that other division already!” My co-worker asked me if I had actually done that part of the project, and I told her no, that I had done that task for two other projects and my peer had taken this one on. Aaaand… I’m kind of bent out of shape about this, because from the way my co-worker portrayed it, my peer was getting all of the credit for the heavy lifting on this new assignment. I can’t tell if it’s my peer explicitly saying to my boss, “Hey, I did this thing!” or my boss making some kind of weird assumptions, or WHAT, but now I want to run into my boss’s office and say, “Hey, I don’t know if you realize this, but I’ve done most of the project work so far and this was [Peer’s] first time, so I should get some freaking credit!”

    No. I will not do that.

    But I’m irritated. Should I say anything? What’s holding me back is that this came out of a confidential conversation with me and my co-worker, whom I trust and respect, so I don’t want to betray her confidence at all. What’s pushing me forward, however, is that my co-worker and I are women, my peer and my boss and everyone else involved are all men, and in our male-dominated industry, I sometimes feel like we get shortchanged. Also, I’m kind of pissed that my peer doesn’t seem to stand up for either me or my co-worker; I don’t trust the guy and think he’s only out for himself while I’m very much a “give credit where it’s due” person. Maybe that’s coloring my feelings about this, I don’t know. What would you do in this situation?

    1. Elle*

      I understand the urge to make sure that people understand you’re doing good work…. but its best if you don’t. There’s no way you can address it without sounding like a glory hog or out of touch with professional communication. Just put your head down and keep doing what you’re doing. I promise, the cream always rises to the top in the end. Its better to be recognized for your talent and work ethic in the long term, naturally, than to try to force people to praise you for work in the short term when they won’t feel as genuine about it.

      1. Binky*

        I actually disagree with this advice. In my experience, “the cream” often doesn’t rise to the top – it’s the guys who are buddy buddy with someone in power. I do agree that you can’t address this particular instance without creating waves though.

        I’d try to spend more time keeping your boss up to date on what you’re taking on and what you’re accomplishing. You can couch it as discussing your work flow and prioritization, but make sure your boss is aware of the split of work between you and your coworker.

        1. Elle*

          I think it just takes a lot longer than people are willing to put up with. Your coworker actually might get promoted ahead of you, but at that point their deficiencies will show up and your ability to handle things single-handedly will shine. But that promotion will be a tough pill to swallow.
          Trying to drag other people down never, ever benefits you – even if it does manage to damage the other person. You still end up looking like you’re trying to brag. Jocko has done entire hours on his podcast about this specific situation if you’re looking for more.
          If the buddies are rising to the top, there’s not much you can do about it anyway, since you aren’t the buddy, so all you can really do is trust the system.

          But making sure you communicate what you’re up to with your boss is good advice. Even the occasional presentation or email detailing recent successes. (In a way that’s informative, not braggy).

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yeah, I’m going to disagree too. I’ve believed that whole “cream rises to the top” for most of my career, that management will see my good work and the rewards will come. But I considered posting in the Past Work Behavior comments just that – I’ve believed that my work would speak for itself, and so I didn’t need to speak up. Consequently, I’m still underpaid and I’m going to retire soon, having never risen in the ranks. I get great reviews, my co-workers and managers are always happy with my work, and I can tell I am better than some peers. Advocating for myself isn’t one of my strengths, and I strongly recommend AvonLady makes it one of hers.

    2. Close Bracket*

      “What’s pushing me forward, however, is that my co-worker and I are women, my peer and my boss and everyone else involved are all men, and in our male-dominated industry, I sometimes feel like we get shortchanged. Also, I’m kind of pissed that my peer doesn’t seem to stand up for either me or my co-worker; I don’t trust the guy and think he’s only out for himself while I’m very much a “give credit where it’s due” person.”

      Ya don’t say. This type of gendered dynamics is so familiar to me, it’s sickening. You have to start advocating for yourself. Do you have regular meetings or check-ins with your boss? Do you send regular status updates? You need to be making your work really visible to your boss (while not acting like you are self promoting, nice gendered double-bind there). You can make your (admirable, imo, but what do I know, I’m a woman) credit-sharing tendency work for you by talking about how the entire division is working better now that you have accomplished these results. Women are received more positively when they talk about working on behalf of a team than on behalf of themselves. It’s a BS double standard, but since it’s there, work within it to your advantage.
      Good luck. Unfortunately, in some industries, male cream rises faster than female cream.

  70. AnalysisParalysis*

    Yesterday I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety and was given medications to start addressing the problem. I let my manager know vaguely that I know I haven’t been at my best, but that I was getting a medical thing under control and should start getting back to my norm soon. My issue is that I don’t know whether I should say something driectly to grandboss. We are working together on a project and I feel like I am letting her down, but don’t really want to air this news in any form to her. She works remotely and it would have to be a phone conversation, and I don’t want any stigma/weirdness (I think she’d guess it’s a mental health thing). She called me out today for not being 100% there and I brushed it off but feel that maybe having an explanation for not being there might be helpful for her to be a little more understanding. Thoughts?

    1. Elle*

      Right now she has a stigma that she thinks you aren’t ‘there’ because you don’t care. Personally, I’d prefer the stigma that you aren’t there because of health problems but are actively working to improve them. But honestly, in this situation you have the right to handle it however you are most comfortable.

    2. Washi*

      I would acknowledge that you haven’t been on your game recently and tell her you have a health thing you’re getting under control. I’m not sure how you “brushed it off” but not taking feedback seriously would be way more concerning to me than the mere fact that someone seemed a little out of it. So I don’t think you need to tell her it’s a mental health thing specifically, but I do think you need to acknowledge her concerns in some way and indicate that you are working on it. (fwiw I do not disclose my anxiety and depression at work, and “health thing” has always worked well for me as an explanation when things are wonky)

  71. ChemMoose*

    Advice needed! I have been in my position for 2 years, but I’ve been doing what is in the job description of one step up for about 6 months. My boss is in favor of promoting me but his boss isn’t favorable in promotions/salary increases at all. Although we aren’t in a hiring freeze (yeah right…) we’ve been losing people in our group left and right and we can’t replace them. On top of that our budget for this year is in the red (not great.). Is there a good way to push for a promotion? We are in the time period where we can do promotions/reviews/etc. right now.

    1. Elle*

      Can you edit your job description to reflect your current duties, and then ask “is this work you expect from someone at my current job level? If not, can we discuss ensuring my level reflects my qualifications? I know money is tight but its important for us to have clearly defined roles and responsibilities so we can all be more productive.”

      1. ChemMoose*

        Thanks Elle! I’ll try something like that. I really like the language of “Can we discuss ensuring my level reflects my qualifications?”

  72. Elle*

    Any advice on motivating people who don’t report to you? I’ve been loaned to another department to help them make improvements to their processes. Its kind of awkward because I don’t report to their boss, and my own boss doesn’t know or get involved in the other department.
    I’ve been working really, really hard to not come barging in ordering people about. I try to listen to their concerns and guide them to their own solutions. But it seems like they just genuinely don’t care about making improvements and any work I suggest is outwardly combated.
    In addition, their bosses seem to side with them over me, in that the work I’m trying to accomplish isn’t a priority and I need to stop ‘bothering’ them.
    I feel this culture developing where they act like I’m the pushy b*** and need to mind my own business. I’ve been walking around horrified that might actually be the truth and afraid to push for changes we need, but every time I talk over situations with people they assure me ‘its not me, its them’.

    1. ACDC*

      I work as a consultant, and I go through this every time I go to a new client. It’s really frustrating, so I definitely feel for you. Especially the pushy B part, because as a woman this is very real.

      Are there any decision makers or stakeholders you can get on your side? They can help shift the mindset of the team potentially. I know you mentioned their boss seems to side with them, but is there anyone else? Or can you meet with her directly to discuss the matter?

      1. Elle*

        I’m glad I’m not the only one. But also, sorry you deal with this. And it doesn’t help that I’m in a male dominated industry.

        The grand-grand boss likes me, he’s the one who requested I be loaned to the department after I did a side project for him. But he’s really high ranking (a director) and I felt a bit weird about ‘bothering’ him to complain about his people. Do you think it would be appropriate to schedule it as more of a mentoring session where I ask for advice on how to positively affect change, rather than just say “your people have a problem with me”? Or is that too thinly veiled?

        I went to the boss after a supervisor I was working with referred to his employee as “Fat Joe” and seemed completely clueless as to why “Fat Joe” wouldn’t respect his authority or why I suggested name calling was inappropriate. Boss was annoyed I took time out of his day to bother him with how a supervisor chooses to manage his people. So as far as I’m concerned he’s a part of the problem.

        1. ACDC*

          I think a mentoring session is a great idea with grand-boss. And I think you can get advice without complaining about his people for sure!

    2. Professional in the Midwest*

      It sounds like there is a bunch of confusion about what your role is. Who brought you into the department, if not the boss of that department? It sounds like you need more backing from someone higher up the chain in order to make changes.

      1. Elle*

        I think you’re right. The grand-grand boss (the director of the department) did – but I don’t think the bosses of the people I’m supposed to be working with got the message, or are even motivated to make changes themselves.

    3. Psyche*

      Who loaned you to the other department? It might be worth having a conversation with them to see if it makes sense to continue. If the team is apathetic and the boss has decided that what you are trying to accomplish is low priority and a distraction, then it may be time to pull the plug. You can’t force them to change unless it is coming from above them.

      1. Elle*

        You might be right. I’m only one person, I can’t change a department that doesn’t want to. Its just hard not to feel like a failure. My husband says sometimes I care to the point of my own detriment, like letting myself become known as the pushy girl instead of choosing to accept they don’t want my help.

        1. Auntie Social*

          If your loan to the new department hasn’t been set up properly, of course you’re in for pushback. Has a boss/VP sat the dept boss down in a meeting with you to say “We notice your department isn’t doing XY, all the other departments do, it’s time to streamline and improve BECAUSE WE WANT YOUR DEPT AND YOU TO SUCCEED. So lucky you, we’re going to loan you Elle! We want you to succeed, it’s going to take your help to get your employees’ attitudes to change. So you’re in charge of no pushback, and Elle is in charge of improving processes. This is gonna be great!”

          1. Elle*

            You’re right – they haven’t done that. Maybe I can ask the director to host a meeting and explain the scope and reasoning behind my involvement in the department. In fact, heck, I’d love to know the scope of my involvement, because right now it’s “go identify problems and work solutions” which is really, really broad.

          2. BRR*

            All of this. I’m in a similar situation of being asked to drive change but it’s not been made clear that I’ve been asked to drive change. Unless the people needing to make the change are willing from the start, it’s basically a set up to fail.

  73. Marion the Librarian*

    Hi All,

    I have a basic question about interviewing when you are already employed (maybe it is in a letter from long ago and I missed it!) I have a job with a pretty set schedule throughout the day (think reference desk at a library) and I coordinate coverage with two co-workers and a handful of volunteers. I’m in the interview stage with three different positions (yay!) but am struggling with the optics of taking so much last minute time off. I have the hours, and always try to schedule interviews when I am “off the desk” but I still feel awkward.

    All of my previous positions, my employer knew I was job hunting (moved for school or family reasons), so I’ve never done a job hunt in these circumstances. Is this normal? Am I overthinking it?

    1. ACDC*

      This is definitely normal. And I’ll assume that you’re thinking your coworkers are more aware of your time off than they actually are. In my experience, most people don’t even notice. I get why you feel a little awkward about it, but it really is normal.

    2. ThankYouRoman*

      You’re overthinking! It feels like you’re an elephant in the room because you’re hyper aware of the circumstances. Nobody else should be paying enough attention to notice and if they did, they probably are also aware you’re not just knocking off during your coverage time and happy to not have to pick up that slack. You’re being responsible all around.

      Good luck for your on going interviews!!!

      1. Marion the Librarian*

        Thanks for the reality check! There is a lot of turnover at my place currently, so I’m feeling extra sensitive every time I take PTO. But you are right that everyone is probably thinking about their own time rather than notice who is out for a few hours.

  74. Christa Carlyle*

    Inspired by a letter earlier in the week- how to reward employees. I’m a supervisor at a public university. This means the most popular options- extra time off or extra money- are not possible.

    Anyone have creative ways to reward employees that fall within governmental guidelines?

    2. LQ*

      Training opportunities. Out of class opportunities (if that’s a thing for you). Opportunities to be a part of professional organizations. Opportunities to present things. (Basically a lot of beef up your resume stuff.)

      I’m also going to say that …an environment that is understanding that life happens. I’m not currently going through any of these things but having kids who are in need of extra medical attention, ailing parents, ailing self, etc. Those kinds of things, knowing that if something bad happens my boss is going to give me the space to go through it and get support for me to make it through? It’s not a direct reward but it is something that feels like a intangible but powerful benefit.

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        +1,000 to understanding life happens. My OldJob didn’t, but Boss totally did. He was a great support during the good times and bad.

    4. ella*

      I work in a library (academic at the moment, though I’ve also worked in public libraries) and the thing my supervisors seemed to be able to do, at least once a year, was food. They had access to funds and could order in Chipotle or the local Middle Eastern place to bring in a buffet. That would be a thing to reward everyone, not individuals, but in my experience, library employees (who often don’t make a whole lot of money) are quite happy with a free meal and basically an extended lunch hour. We also got coupons for free Ben & Jerry’s, once.

    5. Elle*

      One of my jobs got everyone a fancy athletic Nike zip up sweater with our company logo on it for Christmas. Everyone adored them. Something about not going to the classic cheap sweaters made it feel special, and I still wear mine 3 years and 1 job later.

    6. magnusarchivist*

      I once worked somewhere that had a staff appreciation lunch every month that was greatly appreciated — they’d coordinate with a different local restaurant every month to cater it. Nothing elaborate — pizza, thai, taco bar, etc. — but it was such a nice chance to a) not spend money on lunch or spend time packing it in the morning and b) spend time with colleagues I don’t usually see. Might not fit your “no extra money” restriction though.

      I have also greatly appreciated in the past when managers have internally and externally recognized my work. A colleague once pointed me out (like, by name, but also she physically pointed at me) & gave me an unexpected compliment on my work during a conference presentation to some Very Important People. Made a big impression on me and I now try to do that as much as possible with my colleagues & people I manage.

    7. Alex*

      I push back on the idea that employees need to be “Rewarded.”

      They certainly want to feel appreciated, but rewards isn’t the only way to do that. Telling them they did a good job goes a long way. Asking for their ideas is another great way to show that you value them. Being transparent about how decisions were made is a great way to show that you trust them. These are the things that make employees want to stay at a workplace, not gifts. (I mean, unless those gifts are money, but you already nixed that!)

  75. Ron Wisley*

    What is it with so many cubicle farms lacking sunlight? Is anyone else bothered by this? There are studies that show that working at an office without natural light is bad for your health for numerous reasons but it seems like it’s so common for offices to just not care about this aspect of quality of life. I find it depressing to be stuck in a cube or conference room with no windows. Does anyone else share this sentiment?

    I’ve heard that there’s a law in Germany that workers need to have natural light in their offices but I’m not sure it’s true. But it would be awesome to have a requirement like this.

    What are your experiences?

    1. Peaches*

      Totally share your sentiment! I hate not having natural light in my cube. I feel like it would really improve my overall mood if I did.

    2. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      The bigger a building is, the more floor space there is away from windows. It can be depressing, but it’s just a fact of life in bigger offices. It’s not a matter of “caring” about employees.

      I recommend full spectrum lights, decorating with bright colors, and getting plants.

      1. Ron Wisley*

        There are actually ways to make it so that everyone can have artificial light but it needs planning and deliberate thought and it might cost more but I think it’s worth it.

        My plants can’t really survive without sunlight and even the best artificial light is nothing like natural light. And it’s not like low level employees can actually demand a change in the ceiling lights. My problem is not darkness, my problem is a lack of natural light.

        1. Où est la bibliothèque?*

          You can get small full spectrum lights (designed for seasonal affective disorder) for your desk. Is that what you mean by “artificial light” as opposed to fluorescent or LED light? Most offices are going to use fluorescent lights for cost reasons, yes–but they’re also more earth-friendly, which is a small plus.

          I have a snake plant in my cube–it doesn’t grow very fast, but it’s doing fine. A ZZ plant will be happy in artificial light too.

          1. Ron Wisley*

            When I say costs, I actually mean more like designing a building, so that everyone gets sunlight.

    3. wingmaster*

      I’m with you here. I’m stuck in an office where my windows are overlooking downstairs (I’m upstairs), and the interior and furniture is all black and dark grey.

    4. Ashlee*

      I went from working in position where I faced a large window that had a nice view of our grounds and plenty of natural sunlight to a cube farm with no windows. Our break room also has no windows. I can definitely tell a difference in my mood. I feel like it’s almost cruel to design a building where the workers can’t even see the outside. I understand that companies try to keep costs down and pack as many employees as possible in as little space as possible, but i think humans need windows and sunlight. (I’m sure there would be endless arguing about who gets the cube next to the window if there were windows in cube farms)

      So, yeah, I’m bothered by this.

    5. Aurora Leigh*

      The supervisor’s office is across from my cube and I can almost see her window when her door is open . . .

      But yeah everything is light gray/dark gray and it does get depressing. I usually eat lunch in my car because the breakroom is also a cave. We did get new lights that are a brighter white which helps (especially since the one above my desk was out for the first 6 months, since the previous person liked it that way).

      I worked in libraries before and I totally took the windows for granted! Also, being able to see if it was rainy snowy or whatever before I got to the door.

    6. magnusarchivist*

      As an archivist I am very used to not seeing the sun at all from October-April b/c I work in a lot of basements and windowless storage rooms. I wonder how German rare books libraries, museums, archives, deal with that restriction?

    7. Elle*

      I’m with you. I’m stuck in a cubicle farm with no light where the ceiling literally leaks. This is way, way below normal for my industry which is kind of techie and into fancy workplaces.

      They built another building with all the bells and whistles, everyone has sunlight and fancy breakout pods and even Starbucks coffee. When I interviewed, I was told I’d work there. Turns out, nope. They only built the building big enough for half my company, and I’m not that half.

      Its like kicking sand in our faces, especially since now we have to go to Fancy Building for all events and its a good 15 minute walk, outdoors, in the winter.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      For what it’s worth, the new LED lights have a much more natural spectrum–enough so that we stopped using special grow lights for our wall of over-wintering plants. And the planters of geraniums I brought into the garage before first frost? I hadn’t gotten around to figuring which ones I was bringing upstairs –they’re all blooming again. Just from the garage’s overhead LED fixture getting left on half a day for a week.

      That said, I hate having no window. I once worked in a company that had its cubicle farm by windows and the MANAGERS on inside walls. It was unfortunately the best part of that job. ;)

  76. Nessun*

    Gotta vent – losing my mind!!

    Our office is open-concept. I can deal with that, I have my noise-cancelling headphones, and I don’t interact much with most staff, since I’m associated with a group that’s not based out of this geographical location. I sit and do my work quietly, and I stay out of most everything (except when I am helping/mentoring junior admin who come to me because no one else gives them answers!). My group gets ignored in general office meetings, because we’re linked to that other geography, and I get left off admin meetings locally for the same reason. I can handle that; I know I’m valuable to my team, so whatever.

    BUT. Every year, for absolutely NO GOOD REASON the office manager rearranges the entire seating arrangement. I’m talking senior execs, partners, admins and everyone in between. New desk, move down, WTH. It disrupts things for a half a day at least, because Person A has to move to desk B, but can’t do so until Person B moves out of that desk, Person B can’t move until desk C is available, Person C is waiting for office D to be vacated…it’s a gong show game of musical chairs. And we’re in an industry that charges clients by the hour! We have budgets to hit!! It is unbelievably stupid, and I cannot fathom why we do it every year, and certainly not why we’re doing it at the end of a busy month.

    To compound this – I’ve got trauma in my past that triggers me at even the idea of sitting without my back to a wall. There aren’t many walls, due to the open-office space, but there’s enough that I should be able to find a space that works. In theory. The office manager in charge of reassigning space was told about this, and their response was to finish the seating plan and tell me I had to find someone to swap with. Since I’m not part of the “local team” this boils down to one person – I can ask the senior staff member who is on my team if they would very kindly switch desks with me, and if they won’t I’m SOL. Luckily, this senior is an awesome guy, and said yes. But it got me to thinking last night, I’d have to go to HR and ask for accommodation if he hadn’t been able to help – if his newly assigned desk wasn’t against a wall, and he weren’t such an easy going guy who values my contributions and wants to assist me, I’d need to have that conversation. And I don’t want to, because it’s not a big deal to me 99% of the time – just this once a year when we pull this ridiculous game. (This is the third time they’ve moved us all since we moved the entire office to a different building three years ago, so I have every indication it will happen yearly.) I’m PO’d about the idea of an HR accommodation conversation in my future related to one event that this office foists onto me when they (mostly) can’t even be bothered to acknowledge my team exists.

    And I’m also angry enough that I’m needing to check myself constantly to ensure I don’t mouth off or vent to someone here who’ll repeat it to the PTB. For the record, my boss doesn’t work in this location. It’s not an issue at all, except that he has no capital to intervene.

    1. TechWorker*

      This sounds rubbish :( one question – do you say your boss has no capital to intervene because they’re not around and thus not affected by it, or because the people who are mandating the desk moves wouldn’t listen to them?

      1. Nessun*

        Both, unfortunately. He’s not affected, and therefore no one expects him to care, and the people mandating the move are not aware of him (they know he exists, but don’t believe he can influence them, so they won’t listen to him). If I really really really wanted him to, he would intervene on my behalf, but I’m not willing to make this his problem (it’s a tempest in a teapot from one perspective); I’ll deal with it myself. Since I wrote this (and thank you for listening to me rant!), I’ve decided I will seek out HR and see about that accommodation, just so I can have it on record in future years, for my own peace of mind if nothing else. Luckily it’s not an issue for this year, since the swap will work – but going forward, I’m done with this particular garbage fire.

    2. Red Hot chill*

      I’m so sorry that they’re making cubicle hell even more of a hell. A company I used to work at would also move people a lot to accommodate new teams and such and it was rather annoying. Some people never got moved though. At least all the actual equipment was being moved my movers and IT personnel, so we would just leave early on Friday and have (almost) everything set up at our new desk on Monday. It was still annoying though.

    3. Ashlee*

      My sympathies. If they made us switch desks every year I’d lose my mind. I’ve got a “corner spot” and it’s actually one of the better spots because most folks don’t come this far down. If I got moved next to the office talker/joker/chief mischief maker I’d probably get fired.

    4. ChemMoose*

      Ugh. We have had a lot of moving going on at our place due to new construction. Thankfully our company hired movers so we just pack our stuff up on a Friday, and on Monday unpack it in a new location. Sympathies.

    5. Easily Amused*

      I don’t suppose you could ask to work 100% from home (or co-working space)? I was in a similar situation in that I was in a local office but ended up working solely for a group based out of another state. I finally realized that coming to an office that I had nothing to do with was a waste of time and energy so I asked if I could transfer officially to the other group and work remotely. They said yes! Might not work for your situation but I thought I’d mention it.

  77. Teapot librarian*

    I’m drafting the suspension notice for my employee. He provides his self-evaluation which is super grovel-ly. “I know I’ve made these mistakes; I’m working on them; I’ve improved in areas A and B…”. And I’m taken in by it. Thankfully the entry-level colleague post earlier this week was just what I needed to remind myself that I cannot let a few self-reflective words overpower the utter insubordination that this employee displays every other day of the year. Employee is out for a few days, and I’m hoping to get this done by the time he gets back.

    1. Lumen*

      Yup… this sounds like someone who may have learned that if they strategically make self-aware noises and overblown apologies, they can avoid actual consequences for their behavior.

    2. Friday afternoon fever*

      Hooray! Congratulations on one step closer! I feel like I’ve been following this saga for ages.

  78. Exconsultant*

    Hey, sorry to be a bummer here, but I’m looking to vent and get some perspective. My wife lost her job yesterday. Long story short, her supervisor was bullying her and had a history of not working well with women. Other people had complained about him, but her issues were the catalyst for an investigation (legal were involved). He was fired on Monday, she was laid off yesterday. They said it was a “fit” issue. Her performance was excellent and she was mostly well-liked. Her team (she was a leader) is really upset.

    I’m so disillusioned by this. In my line of work, people get fired for performance issues, or because they did something illegal or extremely questionable. They get laid off because of budget constraints. This just seems like they got rid of her to save face. They’re supposed to be a cool, young, progressive company too, with a code of conduct and inclusive policies. If not this place, then how are we supposed to trust that her job is safe at any organization? How do we accept that even if you do really good work and lead with compassion and purpose, you can still get dropped like that? She’s worried that she’s going to get a reputation as “difficult.” She’s questioning whether other people see something about her that she doesn’t. We don’t even care about cool perks and being hip. We’re in our 40s with school-age children, and after working so hard since she was a kid and getting this far, all she wants is a stable job where she’s appreciated and respected. I’m just heartbroken.

    1. Arielle*

      I’m no expert but that sounds like retaliation to me, and I would look into filing an EEOC complaint.

        1. Exconsultant*

          It does to both of us, too. We’re not in the US, though, so it wouldn’t be EEOC. We do have a lawyer, and they’re looking into it.

    2. Elle*

      I’m literally reading this as I take ethics & compliance training, where they are talking about how gender discrimination is specifically covered under whistleblowing laws (aka, the company can’t retaliate against her for reporting discrimination). If her company has an ombudsman, that might be a good place to start. Otherwise, she can report it to the appropriate government agency.

      Otherwise, I have nothing to say but I’m sorry. I’ve been there and seen it in my male dominated industry and it sucks. But ultimately, she doesn’t want to be working for those jerks anyway. Leave a bad glassdoor review and move on. Companies that truly value hard work and want women to be equal are out there, but they’re rarer than they should be. Any company that labels her as ‘difficult’ over this is another company to avoid because they never would have respected her anyway.

      As far as being worried she’s doing something wrong – I’m sure shes not. The book Lean In talks about this at length. But there’s no harm in her asking some old colleagues out for coffee and asking in a very open and genuine way if they have any advice for her or feedback on her people skills, etc.

    3. Mazzy*

      Wow, wow, wow, this is nuts. I mean, even if fit were hypothetically an issue, don’t you think they would care about how bad this looks. This is just crazy. I also would have major trust issues with any employer after that and yes, I also get what you mean about the young hip companies and inclusivity. Unfortunately but maybe this is a positive in this case, I worked at young hip place once and most of the inclusivity stuff was just talk. I think they tend to just have many very young people who say what sounds good. It’s great to issue a statement in inclusivity, but discrimination is against the law, so you’re not actually saying anything above and beyond. And it still left people to be open to gossip or pick on others based on characteristics that don’t fall into a protected category. They were no more or no less inclusive than places that look much less inviting from the outside, if that helps a tad.

    4. Maya Elena*

      For all the hate generally heaped on large impersonal corporations with too much money, it is there that you can expect the lowest risk of weridness and unprofessionalosm, just because they’re so boilerplate and bureacratic. “Hip, new, progressive, startup, family owned” have many upsides to society as entities, but certainly they aren’t the best place for someone just looking for a steady, safe and low risk job.

      1. Elle*

        Eh, I’ve seen it both places. My boss’ boss’ boss’ boss asked me if I was pregnant last time I saw him. My boss’ boss’ boss’ shut down complaints about our tyrannical sexist boss that were filed by all nine of his direct reports.
        Sometimes, big bloated bureaucratic companies just mean generations and generations of the same kind of crappy person being promoted and promoted and protected by the higher ranking crappy people.

        But, yes, the hip progressive places are definitely champs at bro culture and acting like no one is cool enough when what they really mean is no one will tolerate their BS.

    5. ThankYouRoman*

      She will get passed this!!

      I had this similar kind of exit last year only not laid off, I was pushed out and made to look like a quack. Thankfully everyone knew me and knew the psychopath who owns the place lives in his own lala land.

      This gnarly nasty aftertaste and worry you’re feeling is just a side effect.

      These people are liars and fools who have good sheep’s clothing to gaslight you with. She is a strong and empowered woman who can’t be destroyed by one POS employer. Once she gets a job elsewhere, the feelings melt away.

  79. TechWorker*

    Two (related) parts to this question:

    I have just taken over as team lead, at the same time that team shuffles mean that the average level of experience on the team is dropping a lot. (We’re effectively replacing the previous manager, plus one other person with similar experience levels to me with two new grads with a couple of months experience and no context of the project background). My manager is aware we’re basically understaffed, and the situation is due to improve (slightly, ha) in a couple of months when we get one more person (who will be new to the project but less green so should be quicker to ramp up). In the meantime though, I have all this new project management responsibility, plus training a new person (at my company this is expected to take approximately a third of your time at the beginning). My day is a hectic combination of endless meetings/emails/decisions + the second I sit down the newbie has a tonne of questions about what they need to do next and how to do x,y,z. My managers basically said it’s fine if I don’t get much actual ‘work’ (ie the sort of task work I used to do 90% of the time) done, but the last week I’ve had to work late (9,10pm) every day to manage the bare minimum and plan enough work, at the appropriate level, for the new grad to pick up. I’m already exhausted! Any coping strategies welcome. (The person joining in a few months should be a big help as she can answer all the ‘easy’ questions and thus should take a lot of the load associated with training off me, but I still have to survive until then and not miss deadlines etc..). I’m worried in my stressed out state I’m also not going to be able to do my best project leading, but we’ll see.

    Related question – we get pay review every year – and it was already ‘known’ that I would pick up this responsibility at some point – but basically it’s ~9 months to the next review and I feel like my workload and responsibility has just jumped massively. Wondering whether it’s ever appropriate in this situation to ask to revisit pay? My company pays under market rates, albeit with some lifestyle benefits. I’ve been happy so far because I think if I go somewhere that’ll pay me double (which is not impossible, colleagues with the same experience have left to go to jobs with this sort of salary difference..) I’d have a worse work-life balance. But I now seem to have jumped to having a pretty bad work-life balance with no corresponding pay increase, and I’m wondering what I’m gaining here :(

    1. Elle*

      First, its definitely fair to ask for a pay review every time you get an increase in responsibility. I would come to them prepared with a list of how your job description has changed since the last time your pay was reviewed and a ballpark in mind.

      Second, this isn’t sustainable. Don’t wait until everything is on fire until you act. You’ll only be further in the hole and less likely to make a full comeback. My first thought is the trainee- can he find someone else to help? Especially if they’re general questions about a general job that someone in another department could help answer. I’ve been the trainee of an overworked boss and its really, really unfair to them not to have time to properly help them so they can actually become a contributing member of the team.

      Also, as a fellow project manager, here’s a few tips to get you by:
      1) Set aside time during the day to answer email. Do not, I repeat, do not, have your email open with that endless scroll of requests coming in. You’ll never get anything done. I usually dedicate the first hour of my day, and then the hour after lunch. Or I multitask and work on them during meetings.
      2) Many project management meetings really, really aren’t value added for you personally since they tend to revolve around reporting status up the chain of command. Can you have your supervisor identify workarounds for attending some of the meetings? Maybe send a status update via email, schedule attendance during only 15 minutes of a meeting, or stop by the organizer’s desk for a quick 1-on-1 update.
      3) I also try to reduce the length and number of meetings for people reporting status to me. I do that by scheduling 1-on-1s instead of big group meetings for the most part. Then I ask them to cancel the meetings with me unless they actually need my feedback and otherwise have them just send me status updates by email. I do have a weekly group meeting, but keep it problem-oriented instead of status oriented – basically a round table where I ask each person what they need help with this week. I limit the meetings to a half hour.

      1. TechWorker*

        Thank you this is really helpful. I totally agree about getting someone else to do the training (when I was told I would be doing it I was like ‘uh what really’), but there’s not really anyone suitable (lots of the work is team specific, having a go-to for company wide questions might work but they’re new enough not to really know the difference yet). I think my manager is just assuming that we’ll get by until the next person joins in 2 months or so. I don’t think I’m doing too horrible a job of training them at the moment, but they can probably tell I’m stressed and you’re right it might slip. I’ll see how it goes, if I have another crazy week I’ll go back to my manager and see if I can offload some of the training stuff (I think that would make the biggest difference).

        The email thing is also totally something I need to learn >.< I will try out the ‘one hour in the morning, one after lunch’ this week.

        (My manager did take one thing off my plate because I was on PTO today – I was expecting to have to babysit it over the weekend (a deadline changed from Tuesday to Sunday, great) but he’s now doing this so at least I’ll get a relaxing weekend!)

        Most of the meetings I can’t get out of (they’re with other teams where my input/decisions are required) but I’ll try to cut down on too many status-y ones where they’re not needed.

        Again, thank you, all very helpful!

  80. Fruitfly*

    This is about my husband! He’s a 20 year veteran computer administrator with great experience, skills, and personality. He’s never had a problem finding a job. Last year we had a family crisis and he quit his (toxic) job to deal with it. I wasn’t worried that he would be able to find another job when it was resolved.

    WELL.

    It is a year later and he’s had several interviews, a few where he got to the final round, one job offer (which was a bad fit so he turned it down (this was early in the year so I think he was optimistic). He’s applied for dozens, talked to lots of recruiters, networked, worked on his own projects for a year. We are ok financially but I don’t know what else he can do! I think a couple of things are to blame: he’s older and senior and more expensive and he worked for a sort of controversial (in Trump’s America) organization which I think might be a resume killer.

    1. Ciara Amberlie*

      I think the only advice I have is, if he is expensive, to maybe to drop his salary requirement slightly? Not too much so that it seems like he’s getting desperate or out of touch with market rates, but just enough to make him a more viable candidate. You say that you’re not struggling financially, so this could be doable. He could also sell it in the interview as being more about wanting the right job, rather than the best paying job, now that he’s more advanced in his career.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I was in the same boat 18 months ago, except laid off rather than quit, but almost identical in the other respects. After exhausting the direct-apply route to all the reasonable sounding jobs and wringing my network for leads, I was most optimistic about working with a recruiter/head-hunter whose company places people all over the area in similar (tech oriented) jobs. That way two of us were actively working on finding me a job! It might be a good option given his line of work.

  81. drpuma*

    Hope I’m not jinxing myself by asking about job acceptance best practices, but here goes…

    I’ve been actively applying to and interviewing for FTE jobs. An outside recruiter recently contacted me about a contract role at my city’s Huge Tech Company, where I’ve successfully contracted between jobs in the past. Based on the speed with which I’m moving through the process, it looks probable that I could be offered this contract role.

    So. Even if I stop submitting job applications, there are at least 2 roles I could be asked to continue to interview for – including one in a different department at the Huge Tech Company that is 2-3 levels above the contract role there. How much transparency do I owe the outside recruiter? What about the places I’m interviewing? If I received an offer for a full-time job I would of course let the other companies know, but I’m not sure if that makes sense for a contract role. On the other hand, I would hate for one of them to see on my LinkedIn that I’d started a job and think that I was being sneaky. And then of course there’s the question of starting the contract and then accepting another offer. I am interested in working at Huge Tech Corp and am likely to apply there in the future if things don’t work out this round. What should I do?

    1. Psyche*

      How long is the contract for? If it is a short term job, I don’t see why continuing to interview would be bad. I would probably tell the recruiter that I already have some applications out including one to their client. Of course, I would only do that if I trusted them not to interfere with that application or to rescind an offer. Also, you don’t need to say anything until you have an offer. Depending on how long it takes to get an offer, it might make sense to ask if you can wait until after the interviews to respond. That would make it a non-issue.

  82. Jan Levinson*

    So, I recently (1 month ago) moved into a new role at my current company (it’s a lateral move I requested – I didn’t like my previous role, and I was interested in my now-current role that was open). The agreement with my boss, Joe, is that I would continue to assist with my old role through the end of 2018, but another colleague, Bob (who is senior to me but not my boss), would be doing the large majority of my old job until we hire someone else early next year. However, Bob is NEVER in the office. He is always out attending a training seminar, or doing various jobs at customer accounts. When I ask Bob when he’ll be in so I can him to assist with projects from my old job. However, he always responds saying he is sorry, but he’ll be out of the office for the next week (or whatever) and won’t be able to help until then. Most of these projects are time sensitive, so I just end up doing them on my own. When Bob DOES return to the office, he never even asks about the projects.

    Anyway, my new role is picking up, and I don’t have the capacity to perform both jobs fully. I emailed my boss, Joe (who is only in the office once a week at most – he runs another office about 3 hours away from ours and lives in that city) to tell him the issues I was having, and requesting assistance with my old job’s projects. However, a couple parts of Joe’s response really took me aback (I’ve always had GREAT rapport with Joe, and gotten many raises and excellent reviews under him).

    “Since it sounds like you don’t have the ability, I guess I’ll tell Bob myself that he needs to help Project X”
    “I’m really tired of trying to read between the lines, you need to tell me what you want”

    Honestly, the response made me teary. I’ve been working really hard to stay afloat in both my old role and current role, and when I reached out for help, I felt like I was being chastised. Again, I was just really shocked because this boss has NEVER had anything but great things to say about me before. Did I do something wrong?

    1. fposte*

      Doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong to me. Since you have a long solid history with Joe, I’d consider that he was having a bad day, but I’d also ask if it’s possible to meet with him to be clear about expectations on your handling of the two positions. It’s possible that he really does want you to ask for what you want, so think about what you would want. Right now it sounds like Bob isn’t doing the job, you’re not his supervisor so have no power over him, yet this is somehow your responsibility. Should somebody other than Bob be doing this? Is Bob going to be able to fly on his own come January? What does “assist” mean here, and could it be clearer? Do you want to let go of your old job now? Be officially Bob’s boss with power over him? Think about what really might help solve your problem here, since Joe’s left an opening for that.

    2. Darren*

      At the most charitable to your manager it seems like he expected you to handle this more yourself, and this can be a skill (influencing without authority) that he might be expecting of you given your level at the company (which is unclear, but I know that my boss would expect that of me). But that is the most charitable option and even in that case if you legitimately can’t get Bob to do his part of what was agreed at some point you do have to go to your manager about it.

    3. JessicaTate*

      Joe’s response is kind of harsh, but the line: “I’m really tired of trying to read between the lines” comment jumps out at me. It sounds like Joe is feeling very frustrated. And it sounds like ONE thing he’s frustrated by is that he perceives you are beating around the bush in your communication about this. Maybe go back and give your email a critical look? How much were you softening and hedging to not “throw Bob under the bus”?

      I might take that line of his email as an invitation to be direct and matter-of-fact about the situation and reply. (Or have this convo in person.) 1) I’d acknowledge that I was being indirect in my last email (if I actually felt that was true, even a little); 2) I’d say, let me try again with more clarity; 3) State what my understanding was of the plan: Bob would do X, I would provide Y through December; 4) State what about that plan is NOT happening (Bob isn’t actually doing X, I’ve been covering); 5) Provide a statement of what needs to happen next (or, in Joe’s poor language, what you “want” to happen) – You need Joe to find someone to take care of X, whether Bob or another person. I will still be available for Y, as we discussed, but I can’t do X, Y, and my new role at the same time.

      1. foolofgrace*

        This sounds like a good approach. Use a numbered list for these items, and keep them brief. If it gets too wordy, the boss will lose focus and not give it the attention it deserves.

    4. WellRed*

      How awful. Was this conversation via email? Can you schedule a phone call to clarify what’s happening on your end with Bob and how Joe see’s you handling it? (Make sure you DO NOT get teary on the call). Also, have you sat down with Bob to discuss what you understood would be his role in this? Is it possible nobody told HIM? At teh very least, stop waiting for Bob to ask you about the projects. He won’t.

      1. HBucket*

        Yes, I think a phone call is definitely in order. Shoot him a note and say that you’d like to clarify your recent email, when is a good time to call?

    5. valentine*

      I don’t understand why you are asking Bob for help when it’s meant to be the other way around. He never started the projects and you didn’t want to get in trouble for dropping them? Joe is busy and you lack facetime, so take him at his word. Tell Joe you’re going to tell Bob that, as of next Monday, he’ll be lead on former job and you can assist through the end of the year at x capacity (seriously lowball it). Maybe Joe thought you’d agreed to tell Bob this way back whilst handing over everything or thought you’d be direct and say if you didn’t feel it was your place or clarify with him who was going to tell Bob. Both Bob and you are acting like this isn’t his job. That’s swell for him, but it sounds like Joe wishes you’d drop this ball and leave Bob to it. If you don’t currently give Joe status updates, maybe he doesn’t know you’re behind or struggling. It sounds like Joe trusts you to work independently. That’s good; run with it.

  83. Red Hot chill*

    Why are temp jobs and temp to hire jobs in particular, so common? Why do employers feel the need to hire new employees as temps or contractors first before offering them a permanent job? I don’t see what they get out of this when you have at will employment laws. They can still just fire bad workers at any time, they can set a probationary period, they can start giving certain benefits only after a few months on the job, etc. So why do companies use temp agencies so often? I’m not talking about actual temporary positions, such as covering for a maternity leave or a short term project (in which case, why don’t they just sign a temporary contract, so that the the employee is guaranteed to stay till the end of the project or leave?). It just doesn’t make any sense to me. They still have to pay the temp agency, so I don’t buy the money saving argument, especially when the employee is paid less and therefore, it’s harder to find good people and get them to not leave early.

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      It is a money saver despite all that. Lots of firms just regard employees as plug-and-play resources.

      Signed, A Widget.

    2. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      Letting go of an employee, even in an at-will region, is usually harder that getting rid of a temp. If someone is mediocre but not terrible as a regular employee, firing them is going to look pretty bad to their colleagues even if they haven’t been there very long. But if a temp is just doing an okay job, ending their temp assignment is pretty painless and nobody is going to be surprised or outraged on their behalf.

    3. Pikachu*

      Been waiting all week for this…

      How do you folks keep up morale while job hunting? My current organization is seething with disengagement. I am underpaid with no room to grow. We just lost two other key employees and only one will be replaced… making everyone else’s workload grow. I am already working 9ish hours several days a week. I am actively applying to jobs, but tweaking a resume and writing a new cover letter for every role is taking up an immense amount of time. I never hear back from anyone. A majority of the auto-responder emails I’ve gotten literally say I will only hear back if I am selected to move forward. I guess I won’t even get a rejection.

      It’s draining and depressing.

      1. Red Hot chill*

        But employees don’t have to immediately get benefits either? Except for health insurance but then the temp agency will also need to pay for health insurance, so they sure as hell put that charge in their fee.

    5. ACDC*

      In experiences I’ve seen, they are worried about culture fits. Someone’s personality can only come across so much during the interview process, so you really won’t know how well they’ll fit with the group until they are working with the group.

    6. Psyche*

      It can be hard on morale to fire a mediocre employee. it is much easier to simply not renew their contract.

        1. Psyche*

          They would still be fired though. I think it comes down to what they want the default result to be. In a temp to hire position the default is that when the contract ends, the employee leaves. They need to “opt in” to keeping the employee. In a probationary period, the default is that the employee stays. They need to “opt out” in order to get rid of them. I’m not saying that it is the best strategy, but I think that is the thought process. Essentially, they want to actively decide that want someone instead of actively decide that they do not.

          1. Kat in VA*

            Can confirm. My last job was a temp position filling in for maternity leave for an employee. The contract ended, we were all sad, no headcount to include me at the time.

            Five months later, the employee quit and they contacted me immediately, as in the same day she gave her notice. “Known quantity” was a phrase thrown out by all the hiring folks. Plus the ramp-up time is far less than someone who would be brand-new. I already know the personalities, processes, weekly reporting, who to talk to for what project, etc. It would take someone roughly six months to get where I’m at after just 6 weeks.

            However, the problem with temp-to-hire is there’s an implied distrust – which I understand on the company side, but on the employee side, it feels more like “We don’t really trust that you can do the job / handle the workload or personalities / are as good as you say you are” and they’re keeping their options open.

    7. Maya Elena*

      My company switched to this after a bad experience with a direct hire and because the applicant pool just wasn’t great – we needed the short term support but didn’t want to commit to full time unless the person of dubious qualifications proves themselves.

    8. ThankYouRoman*

      It buys you more time and is way less taxing on your staff if it doesn’t work out.

      You can get 3 months of trial. Then benefits don’t kick in until 2-3 months after you’re hired on.

      It’s a liability to fire anyone despite the false comforts of at-will work.

      The temp agency has a bigger net to fish with. They invest in the advertising instead of having an internal person sorting resumes the landslide in and playing the game of “who to call” for an interview.

      I know it’s ugly and icky from the employer side but it’s a no brainer for a business aspect.

    9. LilySparrow*

      Well, with a true temp agency situation, you can “test drive” someone in the position, and if they don’t work out you can have a different worker in that seat literally the next day without devoting any management or HR time to screening applicants, interviewing, or anything. The agency will just keep sending people until you find someone who’s a good fit.
      For some jobs, like admins, there’s a huge range between “basically okay to keep things moving for a week” and “standout performer.” And a lot of those nuances aren’t necessarily going to show up in an interview, particularly if the hiring manager isn’t a great interviewer.
      Being able to keep the basic work going while you look for the best long-term fit is a real benefit to the employer.

      In a firm, for example, where the hiring manager bills at $500/hr, you don’t want her spending a lot of time interviewing people for a $20/hr secretarial job. But they do have to work closely together, so subjective fit and personality traits really matter. The temp setup just makes sense in some situations.

      1. Ron McDon*

        Spot on.

        We just interviewed for an admin/management person where I work. We had three applicants (it’s a horrible job!), interviewed two, offered to one – who turned it down.

        We are now looking at temp to perm, for all the reasons Lily mentioned – we can get someone in quickly and get a new ‘someone’ if they’re not a good fit. If they are a good fit we can make them permanent.

        1. Kat in VA*

          With the economy as it is these days, the applicant pool is getting smaller and candidates are getting choosier (and sometimes dealing with multiple offers).

          I went from just interviews and phone screens to having literally two job offers in hand on the same day.

          I wish that companies would understand this is how it is these days, and quit with the hiring practices modeled on the early 2000s, when people would do almost anything to get their foot in the door. I actually had a company contact me about a phone screen on Friday. Which would be great, except I applied to the position over three months ago. The email sounded a wee bit desperate too, along the lines of “Hey we think you’re great, can you come in right away, how does Monday sound, whatever your schedule is, we’ll work with it!”

          Too bad they weren’t around when I originally applied – maybe I would have been more amenable but even if I was still unemployed, three months from my application date would have given me pause. (And I’m not in academia or federal government – this was a private company and an executive assistant position.)

  84. IL JimP*

    I know it’s been covered in conversations how to handle the salary history question during interviews. What about the initial application – how have you handled filling that out before even talking to someone at the company? Most of the time it’s a required field.

      1. irene adler*

        All zeros is good. If that won’t work, try 000,001.
        Or, put in your expected salary for all places where salary is requested (desired salary as well as salary history). Use the same number in each spot.

  85. Mimmy*

    I have a couple of questions this week. First one is a resume question.

    How would you include short-term projects on a resume?

    Context: My primary job is as an instructor in a state-run voc rehab facility. It also includes a couple routine clerical tasks and, more recently, committee involvement. When my student load is light, I help out with special projects and may occasionally help the admin assistant (so far, it’s all been very simple tasks).

    The projects are typically short-term, maybe a couple of weeks at most, so I can’t imagine that listing every single one on my resume would be appropriate. Saying “assist with special projects as needed” doesn’t sound all that impressive.

    Can anyone suggest better wording?

    1. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      Maybe “assist with special projects approx. [X] times a year, such as [a couple of your most impressive ones]”

    2. Elle*

      Pick a few you’ve had good successes on and list the accomplishments as bullet points. “Helped rearrange teapot manufacturing process, resulting in X cost savings” “Organized and ran an event to improve teapot employee happiness by doing xyz”.
      I try to pick the projects to list that will best segue into stories during an interview – things people would want to know more about or I can easily use as examples for STAR interview questions.

  86. Josh P.*

    I am leaving my current job in journalism to handle communications for a medium-sized business owned by my grandfather, and will report directly to my father. I’m excited for a new career direction that will also give me more flexibility with work hours/etc., but find myself struggling with the best way to tell people about the job. I know I’m well-qualified for the position, but I can also understand people hearing “my family’s company” and thinking I got a cushy gig where I don’t have to do much work. Has anyone navigated a similar situation?

    1. Penny pen pen*

      In my experience people are always going to talk, and you just need to rise above it. Let people think what they will, and enjoy your new flexibility!

    2. Auntie Social*

      Tell them you’re the un-Ivanka. You’re going to wear an outfit more than once and do work for which you’re actually well qualified.

    3. AnonJ*

      If I were you I might delay those benefits of flexibility with work hours/etc until after you’ve proven yourself in the role. At least internally, that would probably go a long way to proving yourself as capable and equal co-worker rather than being viewed as getting special treatment because of your membership in the family (unless of course everyone else gets those benefits, maybe they do, but still hold off and prove yourself).

      For people outside the company you can say that after your x years doing other things you feel you’ve learned from those other experiences some things that will make you be an asset to your family’s business that you wouldn’t have had learned had you just cushioned yourself into the family business to begin with. “I thought it was important that I gain broader experiences in the work-world before I went into the family business so I could bring that outside perspective and independence of experience. I hope that will make me more valuable to the company than I’d be if I’d just coasted in on my dad’s/grandfather’s coattails. I’m really looking forward to my new role and learning learning about the business and finding my place in it.”

  87. AnonEmu*

    my question is related to the subject of this week’s podcast. I was hired as a research postdoc about 6 months ago and I was told the hours would be 7-3, most weekends off, and I’d be assigned to certain specific projects and get specific training. Instead 90% of my job is just keeping the research facility running, and collecting data from other people’s projects. I’ve mentioned in the past my boss has a serious temper and will publicly yell at people but also she’s now emailed me clarifying what she sees as my job duties and this is not what I agreed to when I took the job. I’ve been job hunting when I can (hard to do when 12+ hr shifts) but no luck so far. We’ve been understaffed since the day I got here and it’s not likely to change anytime soon – we are at bare minimum personnel to keep stuff running and if someone takes sick leave things fall apart which means we have people coming in if they’re contagious, or that if you get sick, there’s pressure to come in anyways. There’s also the fact that due to a lack of training and burnout since July, I make mistakes that could have been prevented if I’d been given needed information. I don’t think my boss is happy with my performance and I’m frustrated because I’m really trying hard and keep feeling like I’m missing something that would help me do well.

    I recently saw the work schedules for the next 2 months and she has me covering everyone’s shifts, including 2 weeks where there’s only me and another person scheduled. Because he’s limited to 40 hrs/week and I’m salaried, I know that means I’m going to be responsible for everything and I cannot handle those kinds of hours without support. And I know I won’t get it. A friend of mine has offered to let me live with her if I quit, but academia is a small world and if I quit my boss may revoke my coworker’s time off for a honeymoon because otherwise we wouldn’t have enough people. But I can’t handle 2 more months of this. Im so stressed I have started stress vomiting and I feel like I keep being put in no win situations. How do I get out of here without blowing stuff up more than it already will be?

    1. Murphy*

      Ouch. I’m so sorry you’re going through that.

      Does your university have any kind of grievance process for postdocs? Is there anyone who oversees postdocs that you can talk to?

      The overworking is obviously a huge issue, but so is the lack of training! That’s not what a postdoc is supposed to be. Are you grant funded? Some agencies like NSF require postdoc training plans and there can be repercussions if they’re not followed.

      1. AnonEmu*

        We’re at a satellite research station, so we’re kenneled AF and I don’t have access to the resources available to postdocs at the main campus. I’m not grant funded, unfortunately, and idk re any grievance processes. Unfortunately, all our initial conversations re job description etc were on the phone so I can’t really point to a job listing and compare that versus her most recent email (which amounted to me only being allowed to do analysis if everythng else is done, which it never is).

        The other thing is that my coworker, “Dawn” is the current favorite of current boss, “Eira”, but is also friends with a mutual friend of ours, “Marcia”. “Marcia” is the current PhD student of my mentor from grad school , “Aethlin” (not my PI, but because my PI also hired me then hung me out to dry, he basically was my mentor in all but signatures on paperwork). If Dawn gets mistreated by Eira because of me (like if Eira cancels the 2 weeks of vacation Dawn has planned) due to staffing levels, Dawn will tell Marcia, Marcia will tell Aethlin, and then he is hearing two sides of the same story, one from me and one from his current PhD student, and Aethlin right now is my biggest ally and the guy whose recommendation I am banking on because Eira will probably badmouth me to the entire field once I leave.

        So I’m really concerned that if I do leave,and Dawn gets her vacation revoked or is otherwise mistreated, and she tells Marcia, I lose my biggest ally. But if I stay through the new year, my health is going to suffer worse. I’m already seeing a therapist and she’s seriously concerned about me, and my mom has been begging me to leave for months but I was holding out hope that the project I took the job to specifically do might actually happen, or that I could hold out till I got another job. It’s been made clear to me that I will not get the project I took this job to do (that I turned down other offers to take this job for!) and so I’ve been trying to get out as fast as I can, but seeing how Eira has scheduled us for the next 2 months…I don’t want to be the reason Dawn gets her long-awaited vacation (which she does deserve, shes been working longer hours than I have!) revoked. But I also can’t stay. I know I tend to be a very empathetic person, and I admit to being a recovering doormat. But I also don’t want to lose any allies when I know that the moment I leave, Eira will be badmouthing me to the entire dang field.

        1. valentine*

          Look out for and prioritize yourself. Dawn is part of the problem. Don’t extort yourself on her behalf or take pre-blame for Eira’s retaliation. Either your word counts or it doesn’t You can always try to set the record straight and anyone expecting you to do a different job for 4 more hours a day and being the solution to understaffing isn’t someone you want to associate with. Find out if your friend is serious and accept her offer. (If her home can be a sanctuary for you. I am worried about your boundaries because you care so much about Dawn and what she deserves.) If you don’t already know, research typical reactions to escaping an abuser, as that’s what it’ll feel like until your body learns you’re not going to return to Eira’s lair.

          1. AnonEmu*

            I don’t know how much Dawn knows about what I was actually hired to do, or what Eira has told her. But given that the majority of the things I do at work (99%) are not related to any projects I have assigned to me specifically, but are the ‘keep everything running and fed’ variety while Dawn gets to do actual research and analysis…..idk. It’s frustrating to see her get training I was promised. I maybe get one hour a week to work on the data analysis I’ve had on my desk for months because everything else takes up too much time, but it’s also everyone else’s projects that I’m spending my time on and nothing that helps me advance specifically. My boss has emailed me multiple times stating that those are my priorities, and that I am not allowed to work on analysis until everything else is done, which it never is.

            I know that I am often too compassionate and empathetic for my own good, and I joke that I’m a recovering doormat. I’ve been in abusive situations before (romantic, workplace, a former roommate) and as much as I’ve been going to therapy to be better at protecting my own boundaries/allowing myself to have them in the first place, I still really struggle. Being neuroatypical definitely doesn’t help here. My friend who I am moving in with, “May”, is someone who has helped me get out of some of those situations in the past and who I trust to respect my boundaries and not get mad that I have boundaries to begin with (she’s often one of the people most vocally reminding me I’m allowed to have them and that I need to enforce them more). Idk if I’d be able to afford it, but maybe when I’m living with May I can find some therapist to help me actually get better at sticking up for myself because I do keep finding myself in situations like this, and I’ll make that a higher priority with the current therapist till I move.

            Thanks for the encouragement. I really appreciate all the advice people have been giving over the weeks.

    2. Postdoc*

      This situation is not ok. If your university has a postdoc office you should meet with them for guidance. Also, approach your grad school mentor. Networking is your friend! After that, I highly suggest quitting. This situation is toxic and will grind you down. You are early enough that you can afford to cut your losses. While it is noble to want to protect your coworkers time off, it isn’t worth sacrificing your mental health.

      I was in a similar (though not nearly as bad) situation where 6 months into my postdoc I was burned out and doing almost entirely maintenance work instead of gathering data. I did not have the training or support I needed to succeed and I was spending over 60 hours a week in lab with little to show for it. I was lucky that my PI was a nice person and helped me find another position (they wanted to replace me with another postdoc) and my grad school mentor really went to bat for me to make sure that the places I applied knew I was capable and that this was just a bad fit.

      If you stay in this position until you find something else it will wear you down, you will have more time invested with no data and you will not have the energy to apply for better jobs. If the field is really that small, other labs probably know your PI’s reputation.

      1. Auntie Social*

        And print out a copy of the next two months work schedules, and show that the “coverage” she has planned means you’ll be working 80 hour weeks.

        1. AnonEmu*

          Work hours for salaried employees are never printed on the schedule, unfortunately. So I can show days worked, but all she has to say is “that shouldn’t take you that long” with regard to tasks, or say I could always go home and rest between timepoints if I really wanted to (it’s not feasible given the amount of work that has to get done).

          I admit, I am slower than everyone else when it comes to heavy lifting, and manual labor. I am also 5’3″ and not buff, and that was before the health issues came up (ive lost 2 pants sizes due to stress), and she knew when she hired me that I was used to riding a desk during grad school. I’ve been trying my best but even at full health I am not able of lifting/hauling as much as my coworkers. But when I took the job, I was told that was ok – I was hired to do analysis and learn how this sort of research runs, from a logistics standpoint. I wanted to be able to run my own experiments. I was given charge of one experiment with very little training, it turned out ok, but then….crickets. Just collecting data for other people’s experiments while they get the training I came here to get.

          1. Postdoc*

            That could help when applying to other labs. If you are struggling to do the job physically and do not want another position that requires lifting/hauling then you can say that is why you left. When I applied to other labs, I was able to say that the project had shifted farther and farther from my area of expertise and I wanted to get back to doing what I actually specialized in. My graduate school mentor and committee members told me that was very common and not a red flag.

            1. AnonEmu*

              Thanks! That’s a good point there. I have been saying that as well as that while I took that job to learn new skills, I realized I’d like to go back to what I got my PhD in as a long-term move.

            2. Friday afternoon fever*

              Is there a difference in saying “the project had shifted from my area of expertise” versus “my position shifted from what it was advertised as”? To me the first sounds more like the focus of the project changed as it developed, and the second sounds more like your job isn’t what you signed up for. This is probably pretty field-dependent, and again, I don’t know this field.

              1. AnonEmu*

                The latter is really what happened. Idk what is standard for my field (biology) because this has never really happened to me before. But basically I was hired for “emu feather analysis” and to gain experience in emu feather experiment design and running emu racing speed tests, and instead I’m herding everyone else’s emus for 12+ hours a day and most weekends (I work 3 weekends in a row starting next weekend) and I haven’t touched feathers since about 2 weeks after I started this job, when my PhD was primarily feather-based, if the metaphor makes sense. I took this job to gain logistics/management skills and certain lab skills, and instead I’m doing the same work as the undergrads, but I’m not getting overtime. She was not honest with me re the hours or the duties of this job – if she had, I would have taken the other offer I had on the table.

                1. Friday afternoon fever*

                  It seems to me that those are both very fair reasons if you needed to explain why you were moving on before the end of the project (if this is a question you would prepare for). Your position and the hours required are both very different from what was advertised, so it’s not a good fit. You are really excited by X and Y at this new position, etc.

                  I’m hoping a lot fewer people would think “oh, those are standard and not red flags”

                  Also, your boss sounds like a nightmare. I’m so sorry. My advice below is followed by a “and then leave as soon as Dawn’s honeymoon is over” (if you can’t manage leaving before! which I think would also be very, very OK. two months is a long enough time for your boss to figure out how to get coverage without … ruining a prescheduled honeymoon!)

          2. Friday afternoon fever*

            I don’t know much if anything about working in labs. What happens if you just … don’t get everything done? Ultimately your boss is responsible for making sure that gets done, and if you’ve told her (in writing!) that this isn’t feasible and you can only do X in Y (reasonable/standard, something you could expect at a nontoxic job) hours, it’s on her to figure out what to do with that information. What’s the worst that happens in that scenario, and could you be OK with it?

  88. Murphy*

    I often don’t have enough work to do, so when my boss told me a few months ago about several upcoming projects that would require a lot of work on my part, I was very excited. One of those projects has, in fact, involved almost no work on my part. Part of the reason is that my boss and the others involved left me out of it (i.e. “Send X to Boss and me” actually turned into them sending it to my boss, him not telling me, and me looking incredibly stupid when I sent a reminder out. Another reason is that my boss took some of the more time consuming and menial work (drafting and sending acceptance/rejection notices) on himself, while I was left a) uninformed and b) twiddling my thumbs. I’m annoyed for many reasons, but this is just the latest and I’d like to talk to him about it. How do I confront my boss about this without actually being confrontational?

    1. Nita*

      Maybe say “hey, just wanted to double-check that you don’t need my help on this project! I thought you wanted me to handle some of it, but it looks like you’ve got everything under control?”

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        That’s a good place also to pivot into asking about other work you could take on. It might help to bring suggestions; in addition to being helpful to your boss, it will help you control for meaningful projects that you know will involve enough work for you.

        I would reframe it from a confrontation to a check-in. The goal isn’t to express your frustration (valid, but right now better expressed at other times to other people), but to clarify your role on the project and ask for more work.

    2. valentine*

      Be upfront that he hasn’t helped with the problem. He sounds loath to delegate, so, in future, ask people to send stuff just to you.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        I don’t know that you have the authority to ask for that. He’s your boss; it’s his prerogative.

  89. Question*

    I’ve been reflecting on something a former boss told me, about having “personal coaching sessions” in her office during work hours (she specifically said we were not to bother her during these sessions, which is why everyone knew about them.)

    Does anyone know what getting personal coaching sessions during work hours typically means? I assumed it was part of some PIP, but I can’t be sure.

    1. fposte*

      Or it can be mentoring, or her term for 1 on 1 meetings, or shilling for an MLM. I don’t think it would have a typical meaning.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Oh, it could be so many things.

      With my manager (and in my field), I’d assume that she was involved with a leadership/professional development program that involved coaching.

    3. Morning Glory*

      I used to work for a company that provided trainings on a variety of topics ranging from comms to leadership to crisis management. Sometimes these were one-off group trainings, but often it was a series of one-on-one coaching with mid-level to C-Suite individuals who were considered high performers at their companies “in all ways except…” whatever they needed coaching on.

      So not even close to a PIP (the company thought they were high performers who were worth investing in, after all), but it was coaching to address an identified weakness. I can see one of these people describe the sessions as “personal coaching” to keep it vague, if they were sensitive about being told they need to improve a weak spot.

        1. jolene*

          I have a friend who runs one of the biggest travel companies in the world and the company pays for a life coach for him. All very much above board.

  90. Persephone Mulberry*

    TL;DR: My temp job is turning permanent! Theoretically at a salary I can live on without working a second job!

    The long version: The company I’m currently temping for is one arm of a BUNCH of interconnected partnerships and subcorps, and the position they need to fill is actually with one of the other arms of the partnership, one my current temp role interacts with tangentially but frequently. And it caught me completely by surprise.

    On Wednesday, I’m minding my own business trying to look busy, and a guy I hadn’t met before approaches my desk, introduces himself as “Mike from PartnerCo, have you got a few minutes to talk about some PartnerCo stuff?” I say sure, of course, figuring it had something to do with those tangentially related tasks. We sit down in the conference room and he goes, “I’ve heard really good things about you from from [other PartnerCo staff], and I have a position I need to fill that I think you’d be great for, are you interested?” We chat, the position sounds interesting. He asks about my salary range. I hedge and say “since this position is a bit unlike anything I’ve done before, you probably have a better idea than I do about what you’re willing to pay. Can I ask what salary range you have in mind?” He names a range that has an $8/hr spread. I reply that to make this work I’d need to be in the top half of that range. He asks what I think our next steps should be. I reply, “uh…someone should probably loop in [my manager]? I know she was hoping to bring me on permanently at some point, but hasn’t been able to nail down a timeline on that, and I don’t know how this would affect her plans.”

    A bit later my manager came and found me and it turns out that a) Mike is the COO of PartnerCo (I am super glad this impromptu interview happened before I later spilled my lunch on my shirt /facepalm/), b) my manager was already in the loop and moving me to this position WAS part of her plan, she just didn’t know Mike was going to move this fast, and c) my comment about looping in my manager got translated back to her as “Persephone was really concerned about not letting you down” which…is not exactly what I said but I’m taking as a compliment about my ethics?

    So now I just wait for them to work out the logistics between my manager, PartnerCo, and the temp agency, and for someone to bring me an actual offer with a firm salary number and benefits attached. I will still have a dotted line reporting relationship with my current manager and she’ll have leverage to pull me back to her projects on an as-needed basis, but it will mostly get me away from Terrible Coworker and doing more interesting work with less down time. Plus I get the sense that they’re fairly flexible about moving people between companies within the partnership structure, so that could open up some interesting growth opportunities down the line.

  91. Mimmy*

    Second question: Are all government agencies horrible to work for?

    There seems to be a perception that working for a government can be rife with dysfunction and maybe even somewhat toxic. I hoped against hope that my current employer would be different…I was sadly mistaken.

    Don’t get me wrong–some of my coworkers are awesome and do their very best with what they’re given. Plus, our students do benefit, some expressing sincere gratitude. But the environment can be negative. I wouldn’t say it’s outright toxic, but I do think things are disorganized and inefficient, and some feel that management overlook concerns brought to their attention.

    Between that and reading about terrible career centers earlier in the week (it was one of the “5 answer” posts), I am wary of staying in government (my job is not considered permanent). I’m considering going back to nonprofits or breaking into higher education.

    Please tell me there are genuinely well-run government agencies!!

    1. CheeryO*

      Hm, I wouldn’t say my government agency (state level) is horrible to work for, but I do identify with some of the things you mentioned. Things can be disorganized, we are definitely inefficient, and it’s hard to bring about change, which makes people a bit jaded. On the other hand, though, I have a good boss, my coworkers are all great people who are (mostly) intelligent and hard working, and at the end of the day, I enjoy what I do and what the agency stands for. Maybe it’s a perception thing – I definitely have days where I get super frustrated with things – but overall I know that I have it pretty good. It helps that we’re paid well and have really good benefits – I think it would feel much more toxic if that weren’t the case.

    2. Lady Kelvin*

      I work for a government agency that isn’t horribly run. It helps that we are all in a field with PhDs and are typically lower-paid for STEM subjects so this really is a job of passion for most (all?) people. Sure, there are issues with poor performers not always getting dealt with and such, but for the most part our managers are good, do everything they can to make sure we can do our jobs well, and we are one of the most respected, very positive public perception, and highly productive agencies in the US.

    3. Nita*

      I work with a few government agencies that don’t seem horrible from outside looking in. They’re pretty efficient (though kind of overworked), and they get things done. Maybe the difference is that they have staff with pretty specific technical qualifications…

    4. CatCat*

      I’ve had some good experiences. When I worked for the federal government, my office was well-functioning overall. At state job #1, I had a great team with dysfunctional immediate supervisors. I switched to state job #2 because of it, which had a great team and a great immediate supervisor though there was still dysfunction at higher levels. I am now at state job #3 and it is well-functioning. Very happy here.

    5. Overeducated*

      I had drinks with a mentor who moved into a new government agency recently (from a big, currently highly politicized one to a smaller, more neutral one) and says the new agency extremely well-run and non-toxic!

  92. wingmaster*

    Donuts in the office will be the death of me. I must’ve inhaled two yesterday, and I just had one now.

    1. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      I’m right there with ya, but for me it’s the salty snacks. I’m reaaaalllly trying to stay away from them. And of course, the vending machine guy had 3 extra bags of snacks that wouldn’t fit in the machine and gave them to me. Of COURSE one of them is my very favorite potato chips.

    2. Nita*

      My office has been doing random pizza lunches. I’m trying to keep my weight gain under control. I can’t really justify avoiding the pizza, only to run out and spend $15 on something healthier, so… not good!

    3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Ugh, I feel you. I had managed to lose a bit of weight until my short term project became long term and the team got into a habit of bringing in snacks and going for pizza once a week. I’m going to have to rein it in because I can’t fit into my winter trousers!

  93. Nala*

    Has anyone done a project site interview before? I’m talking to a consulting firm and for the final round interview they are talking about sending me out with their team to a client site for a day. On one hand I’ll be able to get a very clear idea of what a day in the role would be, the team dynamics, and the culture match. On the other hand it seems very strange to be at a client site during an interview.

    1. ACDC*

      It seems especially weird that they’d send you to a client site FOR THE WHOLE DAY during an interview, in my opinion. So weird, how are they supposed to introduce you to the client at the site, “Hi John, meet Jane. She doesn’t work here or anything, and we might hire her, but we aren’t sure yet. Anyways, she’ll be here all day.” No.

      1. Nala*

        I know right! The way it sounded in my phone interviews was that they have their own work space at the client site like they take over a conference room for a few weeks so I’m guessing I’ll hang in there with the team all day and maybe shadow some meetings as a learner. My old job we brought new hires out to project sites all the time so they could see what it was like before they got staffed. It’s just funny that they’ll fly me out somewhere since I live in the city they’re based out of. Their office is a block from my current office!

    2. Auntie Social*

      That sounds so great. And at lunch you can ask the “I notice you did x, why did you do that?” questions. I love it. (An old boss, a highly regarded dentist, had me sit in one day. He told patients that I was with the Board of Dental Examiners, and he was really hoping he’d be able to get his license!)

  94. Why Do Managers Do These Things??*

    I know I said last week I wouldn’t post about my non-working “coworker” again, but … here I am.

    I was on a call with a sales rep this AM. Non-working “coworker” sneezed. Loudly. Much more loudly than needed, didn’t cover his mouth, nothing. And he did it repeatedly. My rep asked me if I was in the office, I said yes, why, and he said “I hear a dog barking in the background”. I nearly lost it. I IM’d him and said it was my coworker.

    Between the swearing, auto play videos, and loud noises, it’s always a treat when I’m on the phone with people.

    Oh, and no, he isn’t working much. Most of yesterday was spent hunched over his phone, on Facebook. I don’t even care any longer. I just tell my manager, I can do 3 things. I have 6 things. How do you want me to prioritize? I usually get “do the best you can”. OK. Actually, I’m focused on taking the rest of my vacation before the end of the year, as we can’t roll it over or cash it out. I have 7 days scheduled and 3 1/2 more to take. Can’t wait.

    1. ACDC*

      I wonder if I’m your non-working coworker… JK I’m not disgusting like the clown you mentioned!

      The nature of my work means I work for company A as a full time, salaried, benefited employee, but they send me to their various clients on a contract basis. Current assignment I’m on has given me approximately 1 hour of work to do a day, but I’m contractually obligated to sit at my desk for 8 hours and “look busy” until my contract is up. Thank God today is the last day of the contract because this has been the longest 3 months of my life.

    2. The Drawsting Bag*

      Perhaps you will have good luck. My “non working” coworker’s last day was today. In classic-for-her fashion, called in sick. Fine by me. So glad to see the last of her! Hang in there.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Instead of saying you can do three out of the six things, try saying that you will be prioritizing X, Y, and Z; and that you will be putting A, B, and C on hold based on your time constraints.

  95. Kindly Pass Claudia Oreos, For Goodness Sake*

    Do we have any student affairs pros hanging around?

    I’m in my first semester of a student affairs program at the university I currently work full-time for (not in a straight student affairs position, exactly, but there’s advising involved). One of the complications of being a full-time worker and a student in the program is that there’s an internship requirement, which usually ends up either being 50% or 100% waived depending on how long you’ve been working for the university and the constraints of your position. Instead, you’d replace those credit hours with elective courses. I’m pretty happy that’s an option, as my supervisor wasn’t *incredibly* keen on me going back to school and therefore being out of the office a couple of afternoons (although I do make up the time by coming in earlier and taking shorter lunches). It would probably generate some tension I don’t want to deal with in a position I’d already love to vacate, and I’m trying not to push my luck while I go through this program so that I can do so.

    I’m worried, though, that not having any internship experience will select me out from moving into a straight student affairs position. I’m mostly doing this because working here gives me free tuition (!), and the majority of the jobs I’m interested in require the degree. I have undergraduate and graduate degrees in social work already, which have a lot of transferable skills and knowledge, but it appears it’s a hard requirement in the places I’m interested in working. Is it worth the potential Yikes on the horizon to try do the internship(s), or is it not that big a deal?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Would it help? Sure, probably. Will it hurt? Probably not. I wouldn’t stress over it that much. Plus you’ve got work experience and higher ed experience to boot. Internships would be more helpful to someone straight out of undergrad who doesn’t have any higher ed experience.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Currently in SA, didn’t do an internship! I took a similar route that you did. I worked for a university full time, got an M.Ed. (although not in student affairs because they got rid of the program because only employees were doing it and they didn’t make any money…sigh). I tailored my electives to be things that would be beneficial in student affairs, so counseling, diversity, intl. ed., etc. So as long as you really make sure you’re picking good electives, and explain those in interviews/cover letters in addition to your current university work, you should be okay without the internship.

      It can be really difficult to get a job in student affairs, but something that came up in my interviews a lot was not internships, but conferences and professional development. My office would never send someone as low-level as me to anything, and I think it really hurt me in some interviews to say I haven’t gone to anything (despite describing it as office budget restraints). NASPA and ACPA are two major organizations that do have local/regional groups, and a lot are 1 day or have 1 day options, so I really recommend looking into those! And there are subgroups too for a lot of SA stems, so check those out as well if there’s a specific area that really interests you!

      1. Kindly Pass Claudia Oreos, For Goodness Sake*

        This was really heartening to read (and from somebody with the name of my absolute favorite Hogwarts professor, no less!), so thank you. :) Most of the people I’ve spoken to went the traditional route and just asked me why I didn’t quit and go the grad assistantship route, which wasn’t helpful, haha.

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          Glad I can help! I got the GA/TA question a lot from people who went the traditional route, which was always really annoying because they complained all the time about how they didn’t make any money, had no benefits, etc…so why should I quit my full time job with health and tuition benefits again? If you weren’t in higher ed already, doing an internship would be really important, but since you are, focus on the professional development and networking opportunities that exist. Good luck!!

    3. Rainy*

      I work in student affairs, and I was hired based mainly on my extensive grad school experience in a humanities discipline, my experience with undergrads (teaching, managing, advising, mentoring), and my extremely broad (like, ridiculously broad) knowledge base. My office hires people with and without internships specifically in student affairs, though we prefer people who have some kind of experience, whether it’s prior higher ed, industry, or some other relevant type. I hope this helps!

    4. Cat Herder*

      My position is in academic affairs (student affairs adjacent at my institution, at other institutions would be in student affairs). For the positions you want to work in, how much experience is needed? Do people typically have internships? How competitive is the job market? Do you intend to restrict your job search in any way (geographically, kind of institution, population you work with, are you a trailing spouse/partner or have a trailing spouse/partner, etc)? You need info to make a good decision.

  96. Doggies Everywhere*

    Was the interviewer being too pushy and sending off red flags? Or am I reading the situation wrong?

    On Monday, I applied for a job on ZipRecruiter, and the posting didn’t list the employer. I figured I would apply and see who it is if I happen to get an interview. That same day, I accepted a 3 day temp job from my recruiter, working Tuesday to Thursday. When I got to my temp job Tuesday, I got a text message from a hiring manager who reviewed my application and wanted to set up an interview. The employer was a local marketing place that has a lot of bad employee reviews (and had I known it was this place, I wouldn’t had applied).

    I saw the text shortly after I’d arrived at my temp job, and I figured I would reply later. Not even ten minutes later, the hiring manger calls me to set up an interview. I know what I should said was I was no longer interested in the job, but instead I figured it wouldn’t hurt to interview. The manager said she wanted an interview THE NEXT DAY, and the only times were 9-11. She also said the interview would only take 15 minutes. I had to be at work at 9:30, so I figure the 9 time slot would be fine.

    When I got home, I got an email confirming my interview, and it said the interview would take 30 minutes, not 15. Since this wasn’t going to work, I left a message saying I couldn’t do that time and asked for a different time, preferably next week. This hiring manager then proceeded to schedule another interview for the NEXT DAY at the same time without my approval (she had sent a confirmation email). I then told her that time wasn’t going to work and asked again if I could schedule a time for next week. She told me Friday (today) was the last day for interviewing, so I told her this wasn’t going to work out and thanked her for her time.

    I should had told them I wasn’t interested from the start, but are those red flags? The whole thing feels off to me.

    3. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      Pushy and also not listening to things you stated clearly! Bullet dodged, in my opinion.

  97. Thin Skinned*

    I feel like my coworker’s tone in her emails to me is rude and bossy. Instead of asking me to find and scan such-and-such paper, or verify xyz invoices from the last deposit, she starts her emails with “I need you to _.” No one else in the company talks to me like that, not even the senior managers or the CEO! Her emails make me feel like I’m being scolded for not having done the thing already, when she isn’t even in my chain of command. It’s honestly upsetting.

    But am I being too sensitive? I’ve seen a lot here about different communication styles that makes me think this might be a reasonable way to ask for something in some workplaces. And I’m well aware that I’m kind of a wuss and a pushover, so maybe the friendly “hey, can you do X please? thanks!” emails I send out are spineless and wishy-washy and I should be more like coworker.

    Either way, what should I do about it? She CCs our manager on most of the emails (which adds to the impression of being scolded) and boss doesn’t seem to care.

    1. fposte*

      What’s she like when you talk to her face to face? If she’s perfectly civil in person, this is a quirk of style rather than a personal judgment. However, you could also gently say “I know email tone is hard to convey, but it would mean a lot to me if you’d add a ‘please’ to your email requests.”

      1. Thin Skinned*

        She works remotely and I only see her one or two days a month, but she’s friendly then, so I guess this is just me. Any suggestions for scripts to use? It seems like such a petty thing to ask for.

        1. ACDC*

          My mom has a coworker like this, and mom is also in a remote position where she rarely sees the coworker in person. I would caution you to address this somehow with the coworker, otherwise you may turn into my mom: coworker now treats her like her admin.

        2. fposte*

          You could use the one I said above, but it also occurs to me that it might be worth checking to see if she emails everybody like that. If she does, I’d be less inclined to push for special treatment and more inclined to consider it just how she writes. I’ve worked for close to 20 years now, all remotely, with the tersest person in the universe, and while it still takes me a moment to reset when I get a two-word email from her, I know it’s just how she writes and it’s not conveying any opinion of me.

    2. KX*

      I think you are being too sensitive. She is emailing this, not actually making commands to your face. It’s one of those tone things. Are the things she needs done things that it is in her job to request from you? If these are perfectly normal requests and you are reacting to her lack of politeness words, I think this is on you. Accept it as part of communicating with her via email and don’t get upset over it.

      It is interesting to me that a woman making declarative sentences is cast as rude and bossy. This is getting into stereotypes and expected gender behavior and unconscious bias and all that. She has stated her needs clearly within the boundaries of her role. Why is that upsetting?

      1. fposte*

        I don’t see this as a gender issue–it sounds like it’s out of step for the work culture there, as it would be at my workplace, and none of the men I work with would communicate like that either. It’s not the end of the world and I think Thin Skinned may need to shrug it off, but if the person writing like this wrote in, I’d advise her to frame her communications more politely.

    3. Elle*

      I think you can do 2 things simultaneously:

      1) Just decide you aren’t going to let this bother you. This is a her quirk, not a you attack. Peoples tones come across in all different ways on email and they almost never mean it in the bad ways we interpret them.
      2) Have a friendly conversation with her. After all, you’re probably not the only one who perceives her like this and bringing it to her attention can help her professionally. After the next one, get up and walk to her desk and say something like “Hey, have I done something to upset you? Oh… well I only ask because sometimes the way you use terms like ‘I need you to’ makes me feel like I’ve done something wrong. Could you try rephrasing to ‘Can you…’? just so I don’t misinterpret the urgency of your request?”

      1. Thin Skinned*

        Thank you! Re #2, she works remotely and I only see her a few days a month if that, is that something I could say over email or phone?

    4. JessicaTate*

      This reminds me of the reverse of the letter from a while back – LW was super-frustrated at a co-worker who constantly demanded everyone add “please” to any requests. I mean, that person was egregious: “What’s the magic word?” and wouldn’t respond unless you said please. Over-the-top nonsense. But still… in your shoes, I’d pause to think about how critical this is to me vs. how close I want to get toward being That Person.

      Also, it doesn’t sound like she’s being scolding if all it is is “I need you to…” This is just a task assignment. Why she’s cc-ing people… that could have a lot of reasons. But almost none of them are scolding based on what you’ve said.

      If you asked me to start saying please, I might concede and try to start doing it to be nice. (And likely forget a lot, because I message how I message.) But I would also, in my private mental notes about my co-workers, make a note that you were a bit overly sensitive. Which maybe isn’t how you want to be categorized. How big of a deal is this?

      1. TechWorker*

        W.r.t the language I agree ‘I need you to …’ is a bit strong but I wouldn’t call that by itself rude. I had problems when I first started assigning work where I put things like ‘can you please do x. At the same time it would be good to fix up y’ and had the assignee just completely ignore y (even though y is really part of the task and the wording was just a nicety, and they fully knew it was part of my job to assign them stuff). So maybe this is someone who caused issues by being unclear and has now gone too far the other way..

    6. valentine*

      To me, “need” actually shows the person is on the back foot. I would only see this as rude if something preceded it, like “You are verbing. I need you to [do otherwise].”

  98. Pikachu*

    Been waiting all week for this…

    How do you folks keep up morale while job hunting? My current organization is seething with disengagement. I am underpaid with no room to grow. We just lost two other key employees and only one will be replaced… making everyone else’s workload grow. I am already working 9ish hours several days a week. I am actively applying to jobs, but tweaking a resume and writing a new cover letter for every role is taking up an immense amount of time. I never hear back from anyone. A majority of the auto-responder emails I’ve gotten literally say I will only hear back if I am selected to move forward. I guess I won’t even get a rejection.

    It’s draining and depressing.

    1. Lumen*

      It really is. Sometimes I think what keeps people in bad jobs is that job hunting is so difficult and demoralizing.

      Make it a daily chore you check off – if you apply to 1 job a day, you’ve done what you need to do. I found that helped me last time I was job hunting. I didn’t try to do it in huge stacks of applications and resume-tweaking unless I really had a block of time to work with. It still took a long time to find something, but it broke up the time I spent being anxious about it. YMMV

      Another tactic I think is helpful is apply, make a note somewhere of where you applied and when and what the job was, and then FORGET ABOUT IT. Act like it never happened. Only return to your notes if you do hear back, and assume all other applications are at the bottom of the ocean.

      Good luck. Job hunting is really hard but I’m glad you’re doing the work to make your life better.

      1. Pikachu*

        Thank you! Forgetting about it is a great plan… definitely a better alternative to compulsively checking my inbox every hour. :)

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This is brilliant and goes in my quotes file: “what keeps people in bad jobs is that job hunting is so difficult and demoralizing.”

    2. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

      I have two tips!

      1) For cover letters, keep an archive of anecdotes and paragraphs focused on certain skills, so when you have a job that requires, say, strong negotiation skills, HR vendor experience, and HR data analytics, you can just copy/paste 3 pre-written paragraphs into a doc, and then tweak from there. Much faster process (once you have a bunch of those paragraphs written). IME, employers respond better to cover letters that have stories about how you operate in specific instances, and it helps prevent your cover letters just rehashing your resume.

      2) Apply to a wider range of jobs as part of a job search calibration. Apply for a couple of jobs that are just a bit more of a reach than you really think you’re competitive for, and a couple that are a bit lower-level than you’d prefer (ideally, these jobs are all still ones you can make a strong case for and can envision taking if the offer were right/you loved the org/etc). This will not only help you pinpoint what “the market” thinks of you, but often has the bonus of a bit of an ego/momentum boost from getting contacted by the lower-level jobs. Plus, you never know, jobs that seem lower-level on paper can end up looking amazing when the org is really excited about your candidacy and you’re picturing yourself working there!

    3. 653-CXK*

      One thing I’ve learned to do is keep a huge spreadsheet of all the jobs I’ve applied to and categorize them according to status. The statuses I use are New (new jobs I’ve applied to), In Play (interviews/completed interviews/waiting for offers or rejections), Ghosted (never replied back), and Dead (withdrawn, not considered, declined).

      The reason for this spreadsheet is threefold. Since I’m receiving unemployment insurance, I’m required to log any jobs/networking I’ve done for the week, so this sheet helps me to have a backup to their official job logs/website. It also helps me on my Excel skills (sorting info, extracting and moving data). Most importantly, it gives me a moral boost. When a potential employer contacts me for an interview, it’s moved to the In Play spreadsheet, and if a employer Ghosts me after 30 days, I can move it into the Dead spreadsheet without obligation. Or, if I get the NMF (not moving forward) email/letter, I’ll transfer it to the Dead sheet also (like this week, when a job interview didn’t pan out)

      I usually spend an hour a day looking, and if there’s a job that interests me, I’ll apply for it. I’m in contact with many recruiters and agencies – some good, some not-so-good (especially the ones that send you a job that’s way outside your comfort zone, way outside of the city, or nine or ten other recruiters send you the same job).

      Each time I’m down on myself, thinking, “I’ll never be hired again” I go back and think, “Would you have rather stayed at a company with people that constantly scolded you, who micromanaged you, who piled work on but raised your salary not a penny, tried every which way but loose from moving on, who used their cowardice to finally sweep you out? No!” I’m free, and while it is hard not having a job right now, it’s better than being someone’s stooge.

      1. 653-CXK*

        “tried every which way but loose from moving on” should read “tried every which way but loose from preventing you from moving up.”

  99. Dreamer*

    I just started a new job 4 months ago, that is stressful but not terrible. I am learning a lot and I enjoy some of my team. Recently (this will sound cold hearted so please dont think less of me) a coworker told me about a Teapot manager who was recently walked off the job by security at her old job. I have both management and Teapot experience. There are not a lot of folks who specialize in Teapots and frankly those who do dont typically have the people skills for management. This role pays ~120k ( a 50k raise because I’m slightly under paid) and a title bump.

    My question is should I go for it? And how ? The position is not posted yet because it just happened. And it I were to take it how do I tell my current job? (Who relocated me across the country and put me on some major projects)

    Should I just let it go and hope the role is open in a few years somewhere else?

    1. Mazzy*

      I would ask. I don’t see why you’d think it’s cold-hearted unless they had a history of unfairly firing.

    2. Auntie Social*

      I would ask, and say that not only do you have Teapot and management experience, but it’s easier to hire at your level than at Teapot Manager level. You’ve been at the job such a short time that the company might call its number two and three choices from your hiring go-round and explain a new position opened up.

  100. JustaTech*

    I really want to thank Alison for a comment in one of this week’s letters: managing is not about punishment.

    It doesn’t impact me directly at work (my part of the org is just not like that at all) but I do see it a lot at one of the other sites. Some days they sound like a litany of bad management (treat employees like children, punitive, heavy on negative reinforcement, weirdly hierarchical) and that line really summed up the problems I have with the management style at that site. (I’m sure no one will be shocked to hear that they have problems keeping staff.)

    I guess it’s just nice to know that it’s not just me being “too nice” or something.

    1. Rebecca*

      I feel like a grade school child most of the time at work. And much like Peter on Office Space, I just don’t care any longer. I put my time in, and leave. That’s it.

  101. Rebecca*

    I was talking with my cousin, who works for a state agency, who admitted working “off the clock”. She’s a non-exempt worker, and she is entitled to break times and has to clock out for her lunch break. She said she has “too much work to do” so she works through her breaks, clocks out for lunch, continues working, and clocks back in. She said she doesn’t tell her boss, and would never tell anyone, and when I told her this is a very bad idea, she just said “I have to get the work done, I just can’t stand to leave it go”.

    I told her it’s bad for determining staffing levels, illegal, that her agency could get fined (and thus the taxpayers get to pay for that, too), her boss needs to know the workload is too much so she can plan, all of it…no dice. She said she is going to continue because she has a “work ethic”. I said you’re harming all of your coworkers too, it’s not fair to them, as it skews the perception of how much work can be done in X hours if you’re working 5 hours a week off the clock.

    I am thinking of contacting her supervisor somehow – there has to be a whistle blower line or something, and tell her what’s going on, but I don’t want my cousin to get fired. She really needs the job. Ugh, I wish she hadn’t told me any of this. Any suggestions?

    1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      While you’re totally right about all the reasons this behavior’s a bad idea, I don’t think you should get in touch with her supervisor – this seems like a case of Not Your Circus. (I’d say differently if your cousin told you about something that might endanger people’s health, etc., but the potential consequences here are around money, efficiency, and good management, not around life and limb.)

      Maybe send her some of the many AAM letters/articles about this topic, and/or something from her state’s labor laws that show that this isn’t legal for the company to allow?

      1. Où est la bibliothèque?*

        Seconded. Don’t endanger her job/reputation to satisfy your own sense of injustice.

        1. Ashlee*

          Yep, this. She will know it was you and implode that relationship. It could jeopardize her financial and family situation.

    2. fposte*

      That your cousin shouldn’t do it, but that it’s really not your concern that she does. Let it go.

    3. Temperance*

      Uh, do not do this. Your cousin is a government employee, with presumably good benefits and decent pay. If you call her boss and tell her what your cousin is doing, your cousin will be the one who gets fired.

      It’s up to your cousin to assert herself, to not work all those weird hours, etc.

      Frankly, I also wouldn’t worry about the issue of accurate staffing levels. It’s a government job. They’re always going to be slow and understaffed, generally speaking. Your cousin is only hurting herself.

    4. InternWrangler*

      I don’t think that you should get involved in this situation. Your cousin is an adult. She knows the risks and benefits of her decision. You can continue to remind her that it isn’t a good decision. But I think if you get involved, it will very likely put your cousin in a bad position–a reprimand or a coaching session.
      Do you think you feel this way because it is a public agency? Would you feel differently if it was a private business?

    5. Rebecca*

      Thanks – I needed to hear that – I will point her to articles if she brings it up again. I get really annoyed when people do this because I’ve been that coworker affected by people working off the clock, and I clocked out for lunch, and didn’t work through my breaks, and it looked like I was not able to get my work done, when in reality, multiple people were working off the clock for 20-30 hours per week between them. We really needed another person but couldn’t prove it.

      1. Auntie Social*

        My friend was found doing something similar, and as it turned out several people were. The manager said she appreciated their conscienceness but if things were that bad, they had to go back to 40 hours, everyone, and fail, miss deadlines, etc. You can so do so upper management would see that they needed more hands. So it got ugly but then it got fixed.

  102. President Porpoise*

    My comment got eaten, so sorry if this shows up twice.

    I may have an opportunity to take a temporary assignment in Saudi Arabia or UAE as a US defense contractor employee. (My boss’s boss requested a meeting with me on Monday about career development, stating that she remembered that I had an interest in going to those countries). I am 30, married with a small daughter and one on the way. My husband is a SAHD. Since there’s no school or spousal job to consider (though we own a home I don’t want to sell), I think this is the best chance we’ll have for a while for this kind of mobility.

    What are things I should take into account when considering accepting an overseas assignment? What about specific to those countries?

    1. Temperance*

      As a woman, I wouldn’t want to go to Saudi Arabia. Conditions for women there are some of the worst in the world. I wouldn’t want to be stationed overseas while pregnant, either.

      1. Fishsticks*

        Yeah I agree with Temperance. Look into some of the requirements for female expats there. You will need your husband’s signature to do basically anything (set-up a bank account, your husband will have to give you permission to work, stuff like that). The UAE might be a bit better, but I’m not sure by how much. It might also be difficult to bring your husband with you. Since it’s a defense company, I’m assuming that other women have worked in overseas and so you might want to reach out to other women and see what they say.

        1. JB*

          These are definitely good questions to ask. I would not want to go to Saudi Arabia for moral and security reasons, but I’ve heard UAE is a nice place. In my mind, the most important question would be what kind of work you are doing and where you will be lodged. If they expect her to travel as a businesswoman and live off the Saudi economy… Ummm…. No. Just no. But if they are going to lodge her on a US facility with a fence around it (such as a military base) then there is probably not much reason for concern. Her interaction with the Saudi government would be minimal and there is no reason for her to do things like opening a Saudi bank account.

    2. Red Reader*

      My husband’s ex-wife worked in Saudi for a while and she as a woman was not able to get him as a man a spousal visa to accompany her. I don’t know if that was because of where she was working or other details; the impression he got was that Saudi Arabia would not approve a spousal visa for a husband to accompany a wife, only the other way around. So I’d check and make sure that it would even be possible for him to go with you. (Caveats: my info is third hand, this was several years ago, my husband’s ex was a serious piece of work and may have been lying to him so she could go without him, and I am heteronormatively assuming that you are a woman, but if you are not then I’d be even more hesitant to go to Saudi as a man married to another man.)

    3. Anonamoose*

      I have no experience with this except for some anecdotes from a friend’s mother, but figured I could throw some things out there for you to mull over. First, how strong is your interest in going? Will this advance your career towards what you want to do ultimately or is this a thing you had interest in? How long will you be there-is temporary 8 months or 2-3 years? Are you going to relocate your family or go by yourself? If you relocate, are you going to be living among the people of the country or on a military base?
      Spouse and children wise, are you comfortable being this far away from family/support system? Your husband will be a SAHD with two small children–how likely is it that he will feel isolated? Is there going to be a way for him to find friends and/or playmates for your children?
      Country-wise, Saudi Arabia just started allowing women to drive this year… I would do some serious research on the culture and how easy it will be for you to move through it. UAE I think is a little better but both are very conservative, religious countries.
      Overall, the best person to talk to would be someone else from your company who took an assignment overseas. They’ll give you the most accurate information about day-to-day life and are likely to be able to tell you more about the job-related aspects as well.

    4. OldJules*

      I would join I’m a Triangle and ask there. They are expat specific networking opportunity that could help give perspective from the actual location itself. Contrary to what we assume, there are female expats working in UAE.

    5. Wild Blue Yonder*

      I think you should go, but I’ve also lived overseas. I’m not a fan of Saudi, and would lean more to Dubai. I think it’s more cultural and diverse without as many restrictions.

      You can start with State Dept Saudi Arabia page https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/SaudiArabia.html and Dubai https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/UnitedArabEmirates.html

      You can join Facebook pages on living in Saudi Arabia, ex-pat (but not really since you’re not giving up your U.S. life indefinitely)

      You definitely need to know what you will have to do to live on the economy. We had to had a bank account to rent, drive a car, shop, and so much more (different M.E. country). Need to know what housing stipend will cover your home, unless you live on a fenced base (which is not that much safer – we’ve had history with on-station activities). What the international community does to help those who aren’t working (SAHD’s too) and education for even your little one (since she’s there, learn a new language).

      You should do this. You can do this!

      1. Lived abroad*

        I’ve lived and traveled a lot in the Middle East, and though I haven’t worked in the Gulf specifically, I know others who have. In both Saudi and the UAE, it’s possible to basically live a “Western” lifestyle with little contact with the local people. (Saudi is quite repressive but there are compounds for expat workers where you can live basically exempt from all local laws. However, you’d have to find out if that would be your living situation.) For me, this would be a major minus. When I’ve lived in the Middle East, I really valued the chance to get to know a lot of the people and culture of the host country and that is less likely in both Saudi and the UAE. For me, otherwise, why not just stay at home? However, I know plenty of people who’ve worked in both places and enjoyed it. My off the cuff impression is that people enjoy Saudi for the salary and the UAE for the high-class lifestyle (luxury shopping, snorkeling, diving, indoor skiing).

        Do your research–medical care is likely to be extremely varied. Make sure there is a high-quality private hospital available to you.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Find out how you would receive health care, both for your pregnancy and other needs. I am an american who has lived in Saudi Arabia. While it was a long time ago, I don’t think much (if anything) has changed. It is a very restrictive country, especially for women. I would never go back.

      Are you aware about the restrictions on you traveling outside of your company’s compound – especially as a woman?

    7. Diverse Anon*

      I met someone accompanying a spouse on an overseas assignment in Iran, planning to relocate to Dubai. She was very outgoing and self-reliant, the perfect qualities for living overseas. She said a lot of it was very hard, she had to wear a head scarf and modest clothes in public and rely on her husband for a lot of things. If she stayed in the compound it was fine, but going outside was different (though she loves the locals and has many wonderful stories to tell about how kind people are and how the women longed for the old days. It’s clearly an issue of government rules, not local beliefs/culture).

      I think you could have a great time on an overseas assignment, but I’d be very concerned about being (1) pregnant and working (2) a working mom in general (3) the female breadwinner in a country that does not allow a lot of social, political, and economic freedom for women. Also many overseas assignments, especially in non-Western countries, are male workers accompanied by female spouses, so it might be a weird social scene for your husband (I knew a man who accompanied his wife to Thailand, there was a local association for expat spouses of their home country and he was the only man). If I was in your shoes I’d see if there are any other countries I could be sent to.

  103. Soon to be former Office Manager*

    Just wanted to pop in and update: I posted last week asking for advice about how to handle my bosses pushing me to distribute my work among my remaining coworkers. I am happy to report that the conversation and the subsequent solution went well!
    I ended up telling the bosses that “I’m not comfortable doing that, since I don’t know everyone’s workload and some of this stuff isn’t coming up for another 6-12 months; you might have found a replacement for me by then.” They didn’t much like that answer, but I put together an office-wide presentation this week to go over all the documentation that I had written, and they accepted it after the rest of the office declared that it was good and useful.

    I think the issue boiled down to my bosses’ anxiety about me leaving and their fear that the others wouldn’t be adults about taking responsibilities. But lo and behold, the rest of the office pulled together and (I think) reassured them. Even if not, we are rapidly approaching “not my problem”-o’clock! Last day woooo!

  104. Accountant (Aspiring to be)*

    I started applying to jobs about two weeks ago and today I got invited to my first interview! I’m quite nervous (I am an anxious person, ahem) but also really excited — it’s for the role that has sounded like the best match out of all the listings I’ve seen so far (both in terms of location [I’m looking to relocate to be closer to my parents] and in the work, organisation etc.).

    I don’t really have a question, just wanted to share. AAM has been a huge help throughout my (short) career and I will spend some time this weekend with the interview prep guide. And also my old university textbooks because I graduated two years ago and have been working in an unrelated (but interesting) field and am worried I’ve forgotten “everything”.

    Is anyone else jobsearching? Any interviews planned? Wise words?

  105. Living in a cube farm*

    Looking for suggestions on how to deal with a bully that has decided to target me with their venom. Boss and bosses boss both know and say they are going to stop it but so far has been unsuccessful. I love my job otherwise and get along with everyone else in our office. This all started because I asked her to please keep her chair out of my cubicle/away from the entrance to my cube. Since then, venom…..suggestions? I would tell her off, but then I would be the one in trouble.

    1. JB*

      By ‘tell her off,’ I assume you mean you get into a shouting match and try to establish your dominance. You are right that this will not help. But you do need to calmly and assertively assert your boundaries. Every single time this person gives you harassment, you have to stand up for yourself and say something like, “No, you do not speak to me like that,” or “That is not acceptable. I will not tolerate that.” You must do it immediately, without hesitation, every time she does something to challenge you. If you wait until later to talk about it or you are inconsistent, she won’t get the message.

      You do not argue. You say what you want, you insist upon her respecting your boundaries, and you move on with your life. There are a few reasons for this. (1) She wants to make you upset. If you raise your voice and show her that you are upset, that means she ‘wins’ in her mind. (2) If there are witnesses – and you do want witnesses – you don’t want them to see you shouting or being upset. They might assume you are the bad guy in the situation. You want everyone to see you as professional and assertive. (3) There is nothing to argue over. You established your boundaries and she respects them. That’s it. It’s not a two-way conversation. She doesn’t get to negotiate what your boundaries are or tell you that you are wrong for feeling a certain way. The more she talks, the greater the risk that she will undermine your confidence or gaslight you.

      It’s not easy and there is risk. You can’t rely on your bosses to stop it for you, as you probably already know. And if the situation escalates, you need to be able to convincingly say that you were professional, direct, and reasonable the entire time. Ultimately, it may come to the point where an ultimatum is necessary. If you can’t tolerate her behavior and your bosses refuse to enforce standards of behavior, then you need to start thinking about your next job.

      1. Living in a cube farm*

        I think you are spot on, JB. The thing I struggle with the most is that now most of the stuff she does is very subtle. If I have a patient on the phone who is hard of hearing and I have to repeat myself, she laughs-loudly. She will stare at me if I speak with the person on the other side of me. I’m not sure how or what to say? Drop it and do nothing?

        1. WellRed*

          She will stare at me if I speak with the person on the other side of me

          “I’m sorry, did you need me for something?”

        2. Drop Bear*

          I’d ignore them. Very hard to not look like the ‘bad guy’ if you ask someone not to look at you. You could try the suggestion someone here had once of smiling at her ‘as if you have Fuck You written on your teeth’ when she stares at you or the like. You look friendly, but internally you know what you are saying to her.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      When she does something that is too subtle to report, smile sweetly and be outwardly unflappable so it is no fun. After some practice this can be deeply satisfying and sometimes causes the behavior to go extinct—or escalate to something actionable.

  106. Shades of Blue*

    How do you track your accomplishments at work? And how often do you update your list/excel/doc etc.?

    I always have such good intentions. I even have a document titled ‘Accomplishments 2018’ and I wrote one thing for January and…here we are.

    1. ChemMoose*

      I’ve scheduled a time block on Fridays to update what I did weekly so that I have a better idea of my small accomplishments. I started it in July but alas until I started the calendar time on Fridays two weeks ago, I didn’t update it. Speaking of… I should go do that instead of reading AAM…

    2. wingmaster*

      I have an app called Penzu. I try to do it weekly.

      If I have praise from higher ups through an email, I’ll take a screenshot of that and save it in Penzu.

      I think what also have been helpful is that in my bi-weekly department meetings, my grand boss will have us go around and share our “win” for the week.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      Do you use any task tracking in your email system? (I use Outlook, and it has to-do and done flags). Or go look through your sent emails and see what you’ve sent, especially ones with attachments. Not to late to start the habit :)

    4. Rainy*

      I use a planner and so it has all the details of what I’m doing, week by week, and there’s a section for “accomplishments” weekly that I write in.

  107. Like a Plant Thief in the Night*

    My boss retired at the beginning of the year – meaning she’s been gone 11 months. Before she left, she gave me her two office plants and indicated that she wanted me to take care of them for her and she would pick them up when she came back (I work for a university and she’s an alum, so even though she moved states, she’s come back to campus for alumni events). But she wasn’t super direct about that, and even though she’s been on campus at least three times since she left, she’s never follow up with me about the plants, or asked about them – anything! My boss was horrible with follow through and deadlines, and she also left boxes and boxes and boxes of paperwork she swore up and down she was going to come go through. You guessed it – those boxes are still here, untouched. Am I in the clear to just take the plants home? I think they’ll do better there than in my office and I’ll be out for 3 weeks over Christmas so they’ll die if I don’t. Should I just consider them office plants and leave them here, to be inherited when I leave next year? They desperately need to be repotted but I don’t want to spend the money on new pots if the plants aren’t technically mine.

    2. valentine*

      If you don’t want them, tell her you’re putting them in a common area or dumping them on x date. If the paper’s in your way, look into having it removed.

  108. Gaia*

    So I applied for a job that, based on the description, was right up my alley! I had a phone screen that went great. Moved onto the next round in person and…things got weird.

    It turns out the job isn’t at all as described. As in, my job is analysis of teapot supply trends and this job is counting teapot spouts. They admitted in the interview that they make the job seem more complicated to get “better qualified” candidates. I was pretty irritated since my salary requirements are way above what anyone would ever pay for the job they actually needed and my background makes it clear I am not in the teapot spout counting part of my career. So I was pretty blunt.

    I told them they got a more qualified candidate but at least this candidate was no longer interested because I’m not doing that job.

    I figured that would be the last I heard. Nope. The next day the hiring manager called me and said she wanted me to talk to their consultant about possibly creating a new role in the company to match my background. I’m suspicious but….okay. I talk to the consultant and things are alright but I’m still suspicious. She asks me to do a personality assessment (I roll my eyes but do it anyway). It is 10 questions that results in no less than TWENTY FIVE pages about my “personality.”

    Now the owner of the company wants to meet and discuss a potential job description.

    I really need to get back to work because I am losing my mind over here from boredom but this is like a red box labeled “flags” with tons of red flags stuffed inside.

      1. Gaia*

        Yea. I kind of only want to talk to the owner to get more on this because I’m really curious how it has worked out for them before.

        But also there is pretty much no damn way I am taking this job they are “creating” for me because I have no faith it won’t end up being the job they lied about to begin with….

        1. animaniactoo*

          Ah… you’re still going for curiosity’s sake. That I get. You might still find my reply below useful for when you speak with the owner. ;)

        3. The New Wanderer*

          Interviews run both ways, so dig all you can into why they’d post a job description for a senior role, then say ha ha, it’s actually very junior, no wait, maybe we’ll create the job we described in the first place after all. What are their actual business needs?

          My money’s on the “new job” being the junior job dressed up with some added senior work written in (because you can do it and it might come up some day), but still at junior pay (because they’ll realize they can’t afford senior level pay for this essentially junior job).

    2. animaniactoo*

      “On further consideration, I don’t think this is a good fit. I am still very wary given how I came to be involved with your company and I feel really uneasy about working for a company that would so deliberately mislead candidates in a job posting. I have to think that kind of judgment plays out in other areas of the company and I am always going to be wondering what’s behind the curtain and is going to jump out and bite me.”

      i.e. “You didn’t just lose a good candidate for the role you were actually hiring for, you ALSO lost a good candidate for the role I would actually be willing to consider by pulling this crap.”

  109. PM-NYC*

    Stretching in a cubicle farm.

    My physical therapist wants me to do brief neck stretches and arm stretches every hour throughout the work day. These could be done seated or standing but I feel self-conscious about doing them in my cube. The only conference room on our floor is all glass and the break room is open to the cube farm. There is one individual restroom, but it is the only gender neutral restroom for the floor so I don’t want to bogart it. I also don’t feel like I can take a break of this length once an hour and get all the work done I need to do.

    So between my guilt about taking the time, desire not to be singled out in a negative way, and the way the space is set up, does anyone have any suggestions?

    1. Anon From Here*

      (1) No one will notice you doing them, especially if you stay seated.

      (2) If you do, you can say something along the lines of, “Ha, looks goofy, right? Doctor’s orders!”

      1. ACDC*

        +1

        Your doctor isn’t having you put your left leg on the top of the cubicle while right leg stays on the ground, or something equally as ridiculous. What you’re describing sounds very subtle.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Take the time and do them seated. I’m assuming it takes under 2 minutes to do – the truth is that it’s very unlikely that anyone will notice or put it together as specifically being PT rather than “ugh, getting stiff, need to loosen up” and if anyone does say something the answer is “Oh, I’m in PT for a strain/muscle injury (or whatever is the most innocuous version of what’s going on with you), I have to do this regularly so that I don’t lose my progress. Good thing it only takes a minute or so!” (thereby stressing that it’s taking up little to no time and is no big deal). If anyone wants to ask more about what kind of injury or how you got it or whatever – “Oh, it’s such a boring story, I can’t take re-hashing it again. I just want it to be over with already!” and then beandip to some other topic as fast as you can.

      1. JB*

        Exactly. My experience has been that most people won’t even bat an eye if they see someone stretching their muscles. It’s totally normal.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Regardless of how long they take, they are a medical need that you have right now. If it’s cutting into your work time enough to be a problem for your workload, can you have a conversation with your manager about making some adjustments to your projects?

    4. It’s me*

      My cube mate does all kinds of stretches, he will get up and talk to me while he does it. I don’t mind one bit. People will understand why you’re doing it!

    5. beanie beans*

      I had a coworker who would stand up and stretch about once an hour or two and eventually it caught on for others to do the same when he did – it could be a positive thing for your coworkers!

    6. Rainy*

      We have an assistant director who does a whole 15 min pilates routine in the floor of her shared office every afternoon, so I think you’re fine.

      1. TechWorker*

        My manager has an outlook reminder basically saying ‘stretch now!’ that has sometimes popped up on screen when he’s presenting to a group.. it’s literally fine. It’s generally acceptable that people might need to stretch throughout the day!

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m on the tail end of recovety for a frozen shoulder. Post your stretching exercise writeup on the wall so you can point to it if anyone walks in on you. You’ll have more and more interesting conversations than you might expect…and some people might have suggestions that help.
      Do the stretches when you’re reading emails.
      If you don’t have a telephone headset, ask for one — conference calls are great stretching opportunities. Bluetooth headset if they’ll spring for it, it let’s you pace.
      The craziest thing I did, people always just said “oh” when I explained…our bathroom has a heavy metal framed privacy barrier by the door. When I was told to stretch over my head, I could “walk” my arm up partway up the wall…then I could reach the top… now I still just grab the top and hold on for 5 seconds every time I’m in there. (Even if it’s for rinsing my coffee cup.)
      Good luck!

  110. Just Another Attorney*

    I need help crafting some feedback I’ve been asked to provide. Here’s the background:
    I work in a legal department for a large corporation. We have several lawyers in the main office (that’s where I work) and other full-time attorneys working in other offices across the country. A few months back, our GC decided we needed a “legal retreat” for team-building purposes. His assistant sent around some dates for everyone to consider. One date range covered my young child’s birthday and another covered my own. I pointed out these events and asked not to travel out of town on those dates if possible.

    GC/Assistant end up picking the trip dates that include my birthday. I was not thrilled, but would have rather had that outcome than missing my child’s birthday so fine. A few weeks later, they announce that the retreat is taking place in a very rustic, outdoor setting and will involve hunting/fishing/hiking/etc. I am a vegetarian (for ethical reasons) and pretty much the picture of “Indoorsy”. None of this is news to my co-workers and boss. I politely object to the hunting/fishing part. After awhile, I hear that hunting is no longer included, but that fishing will be and we are asked to provide information so that the corporation can purchase fishing licenses for each of us. I politely decline and state, once again, my ethical objection to fishing.

    Fast-forward – trip occurred a few weeks ago. For others, I’m sure it was fun but for me, not so much. I had to buy tons of “outdoor gear” for the trip including hiking boots, an insulated rain jacket, and thermal underwear. It cut into the money my family sits aside every month to pay extra on student loans. Moreover, I had to spend nearly 5 hours in a boat, in the freezing cold, on my birthday, watching people fish and being asked continually to take photos of them holding up their catches. Again, maybe it would have been fun for a different personality type, but it was not for me. I tried to be as good of a sport as I could, but considering I had to eat microwave dinners the entire trip because everything was a parade of BBQ and fish-fries didn’t exactly help.

    So now the GC/Assistant are requesting “feedback” on the event from all who attended. There is no set format for the feedback but they are requiring that we ALL provide feedback in some form. I may have smiled and laughed while at the retreat so as not to seem like a complete stick in the mud, but I hated every moment of it. I felt like it was not inclusive and at times it was downright demoralizing (like when we all had to have a BBQ dinner in a barn filled with, let’s just say a lot of dead animal heads and overtly sexist signs about a certain female politician who ran for president). The thing is, the rustic place that we stayed at in VERY special to the GC and he spends a lot of time there.

    I have been struggling with what kind of feedback to give here that is a) honest and b) doesn’t make me sound like an ungrateful employee who hates my bosses’ personal hobbies (even though that’s pretty much what I am!).

    HELP!

    1. Anon From Here*

      Do not include in your feedback any complaints about it having taken place over your birthday. That’s going to come across as childish. Source: I’m an attorney. There is no way I would ask anybody to reschedule anything for me because it conflicted with my birthday, because — and there’s really no super nice way to put this — I am no longer 12 years old. Save it for some time with friends when you can share stories about your Worst Birthday Ever, but don’t take it to the GC.

      1. Just Another Attorney*

        I agree. I don’t plan on mentioning the birthday thing at all. I included it here to give more color as to how the whole thing was managed. I’m struggling with how to give feedback that doesn’t make me sound well, like I feel.

        I know I can’t write: “While fishing/hiking, etc. may be events that most appreciate, they are activities well out of my element. I did not even own appropriate clothing/gear to participate in such activities and had to expend ___ to even attend this mandatory event. Meanwhile, I ethically oppose fishing and was forced to watch my co-workers participate in the activity for nearly 5-hours. The meals were not very well thought out for including a vegetarian (I was literally offered a plain baked potato with butter during the BBQ dinner) and overall, I did not remotely enjoy myself.”

        So yeah – can’t write that… need help balancing honesty with I guess a more “boss-friendly” response.

        1. JB*

          ” I did not even own appropriate clothing/gear to participate in such activities and had to expend ___ to even attend this mandatory event. Meanwhile, I ethically oppose fishing and was forced to watch my co-workers participate in the activity for nearly 5-hours. The meals were not very well thought out for including a vegetarian.”

          I think all of these are valid complaints. Perhaps phrase it as something like, “Team-building exercise required additional expenses for participants in the form of outdoor attire and equipment. Please subsidize these types of trip expenses or select an indoor activity we are all prepared for.” And I think it is fair to say you felt ‘excluded,’ especially because their ‘meal plan did not take into account dietary restrictions, and as a result the available food was inadequate.’

          I hope you don’t sweep this under the rug. You deserve to be heard and considered. If they aren’t willing to discuss this or they react with hostility, that tells you a lot about the people you are working for and I’d start looking for a new opportunity.

            1. WellRed*

              Me too, especially the word “excluded.” Also, if they knew in advance you needed vegetarian food options, you could add something like “my request for X was not taken into account/accommodated.” That’s just rude.

      2. Psyche*

        I agree. No one will care that it was your birthday. However, I think it is worth pointing out that it failed as a team building exercise because you felt ostracized for being vegetarian.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “I am sure that many people had a great time, but while I did my best to be a good sport this was not really a good experience for me. Unfortunately, it’s culturally very different from my own values, and because these are not activities I normally participate in it was also quite expensive for me to prepare for as I had to purchase a significant amount of stuff that’s not in my closet in order to attend. It would have been great if the retreat had a wider variety of activities scheduled – including some overlapping ones – so that employees could pick and choose those that they are more likely to enjoy doing together. If there was an option to learn how to do [outdoorsy thing], I would have signed right up for that!”

      Try to find something that could have been done in the location that would have been good for you and push that they missed the opportunity to give a wider variety of options so that people could “fit”, rather than that the location altogether was just a bad choice.

      1. Temperance*

        I have a feeling that a place like this doesn’t have anything to offer unless you’re ultra conservative and really into hunting and fishing.

        1. animaniactoo*

          I’m sure lessons in campfire building or animal track identification could be had… the fact that some might use those for hunting rather than general interest purposes wouldn’t matter as much as the fact that the upfront presentation wouldn’t be as “in your face” about the hunting/fishing aspects.

          Also, all it takes is one deck of cards for a game of something…

          1. Temperance*

            I have some experience with these sorts of places, and they don’t really have any general interest activities. Animal tracking would be part of organized hunts, not its own separate thing, and fire building only takes a few minutes. They would also very likely make a point of ostracizing OP.

            I don’t disagree with the deck of cards idea, but it would still be a problem because OP and anyone else who wasn’t into shooting animals would be stigmatized.

            1. animaniactoo*

              Right, my point is not that they currently have and just didn’t choose them. It’s that if a customer requests, some sort of thing could likely be thrown together given that this is a corporate retreat rather than a “group of buddies” kind of event.

              As far as the ostracization over the deck of cards… eh, I’m thinking that OP is already getting somewhat stigmatized/ostracized, they might as well enjoy themselves while they are. Especially if they make a point of interacting at other times with the group and being upbeat and “Did you have fun today? I don’t want the gory details but I hope you’re having fun, we had a great time Xing…”

        2. ThursdaysGeek*

          It is rather outdoorsy, but bird watching is always available at a place like that and doesn’t involve killing anything. Or photography. Even a place like that can be made inclusive, if they had tried.

          1. LilySparrow*

            Or identifying native/wild plants, either for curiosity or for foraging.

            Plant foraging actually has a crossover of interest for foodies, environmentalists, and hardcore preppers.

        3. Clisby Williams*

          Or ultra liberal and really into hunting and fishing. Liking hunting and fishing has exactly zero to do with conservative/liberal.

          The point is that this is not an activity that everyone would like – and it shouldn’t take much imagination to know that there are plenty of people (conservative or liberal) who aren’t into hunting, fishing, and rustic accommodations out in the middle of nowhere. Sheesh.

      2. Just Another Attorney*

        I really like this line of thought — an honest suggestion that could add value to future trips without making me sound like I’m ripping on the current one too terribly much. I’m not outdoorsy, but I would have MUCH preferred learning how to build a fire, tie knots, or track animals than a mandatory fishing trip. Thanks for the suggestion.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Even tying lures would be a different yet related activity! (Sure you won’t use the lures, but the same techniques can be used later to make retro 1980s feather jewelry for kid costumes.)

    3. Temperance*

      Ugh, that sounds hellish to me. I’m from an area where that sort of rednecky junk is common, and I can only imagine how uncomfortable it would be for someone who isn’t. I grew up around dead animal heads and the kind of sexist nonsense that’s so often attached. I just can’t imagine a corporate legal department going on an organized fishing trip like this.

      I might suggest alternatives for next year, mention that you weren’t really able to participate or eat anything, and that hunting/fishing/etc. left out a good number of the team.

    5. Nacho*

      It should be possible to gently provide feedback that you’re not an outdoorsy person and did not enjoy the trip, and I doubt anybody will consider you a stick in the mud for it. The money bit is a good point too, since I doubt your boss considered that some people might not be able to afford the outdoor gear you needed.

    6. AdAgencyChick*

      I think you would have been well within your rights ahead of the retreat to say, “Aren’t we going to need to have X, Y, and Z items to do this? I don’t own these items, and it’s not in my budget to buy them.” Then see whether the planners will put their money where their mouth is and reimburse you for those items.

      Since it’s after the fact, I would definitely give the feedback that a) you were asked to do an activity you’re ethically opposed to, and b) you would like any future team-building events NOT to involve costs to employees such as [items you had to buy].

    7. ..Kat..*

      This is ridiculous that you had to spend a lot of money to attend (clothing that you needed, plus your meals – everyone else got their meals provided, you had to pay for yours since you are vegetarian.). All this to participate in extremely unpleasant (to you) activities with unpleasant (to you) lodgings. Your GC is a thoughtless bro-tool.

      But, leave out the part of it being your birthday when you provide feedback.

      I suggest you think about what medical conditions you are going to acquire so that you don’t have to go next time. Although, this will exclude you from face time with your boss and team.

  111. Gaia*

    So weird theme I’ve noticed when applying

    Nearly every applicant system is requiring I self identify gender, disability status, veteran status, and race. I don’t recall this being the case 4 years ago when I was last looking. Is this a new thing? I don’t really care for it.

    1. ACDC*

      I’ve had to do this every time I’ve applied for a job that wasn’t with a tiny or family-owned company.

    2. Bunny Banshee*

      Some organizations set employment standards that ensure they are fostering diversity in their workplaces. Also, some unionized companies require that the organization employs a certain amount of individuals in various protected classes. Self-reporting may seem intrusive or icky, but it helps companies ensure that they are offering equal opportunities to minorities.

      Of course, there are also federal tax breaks for organizations who offer employment to certain demographics (i.e. veterans).

      1. Gaia*

        So I will say that I’m quite used to gender and race being asked (as part of EEOC requirements on disclosures about application and hiring trends) but disability and veteran status being required at this stage so universally is quite new. I think in almost 20 years of working, before this, I was asked veteran status a handful of times and never asked to self identify disability status at the application stage.

      1. Gaia*

        So none of these have had an opt out option. And they have been part of the actual application. I think that is what is throwing me. At Old Job we asked similar questions (required, due to federal contracts) but they were separate from the application and the hiring manager never saw the answers. These are built into the application which tends to suggest they are available to hiring managers.

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      This has been a thing at least as far back as 2012 when I was in a role that screened resumes. Companies with over 100 employees are required to report EEOC compliance; companies with over 15 employees aren’t required to report but they’re required to maintain the records if they ever need to prove compliance. As Bunny Banshee pointed out, there are also incentives for companies to comply.

      The information gathered is supposed to be aggregated completely separately from the rest of your application materials. You can’t opt out, per se, but you won’t be penalized for choosing the “choose not to disclose” option.

      1. Gaia*

        How weird! I asked around to a few contacts and universally no one remembered doing this at the application stage (as thoroughly). I’m used to gender and race but disability and veteran status are brand new to me (with the exception that veteran status has always been asked when applying to certain companies or companies with federal contracts).

  112. Narwhal80*

    When I write out life goals, one goal rises to the top. I really want the chance to live in Europe. In turn, I’d love to hear from anyone who has successfully transitioned to working abroad. How did you do it? What steps would you suggest to someone starting out with this (rather broad) goal? Thank you!

    1. Anonymatic YoYo*

      I hear you – this was mine, and I achieved it, albeit in a more traditional route (but untraditional execution). If I had to do it over again I would suggest approaching it from a few angles:

      1) Ensure you have skills/experience that is needed overseas and/or “travels well”. This is typically something like nursing, IT, data, finance, etc type of skills. Alternatively work in a niche industry, or have solid background that recruiters would be searching for. the EU has 500m population – they will need a really good reason to bring someone over, and skills/experience scarcity helps that a lot.

      2) Target working for companies with international branches PLUS a history of allowing companies to move. I did this and yet my company, although they said they did, did not actually enable employees to move between some really siloed business units. If you go this route, ensure you vet the company well in the interview stage.

      3) Figure out, or at least narrow down, where you may want to go. Europe, as you noted, is really big and diverse and some country workforces can be limited to foreigners without the language, to downright hostile (hi, UK!). Its also good to know the culture of where you may want to go, and if that fits with your preferences. Scandinavia looks ideal but can be a tough one socially, the UK can seem easy due to language, but its got other problems (housing, salary). Germany and Netherlands are hot, but Germany has its own quirks. Anything further East and you may run into language challenges and low salaries.

      4) Alternatively go off the beaten path by doing something like teaching English, or doing the whole remote worker/nomad thing. If your job skills are mobile (front end design, etc), you could technically build up a freelance business and then head on out and “live” in Europe for three months at a time. This is difficult to do too, but so are all the rest, not to mention you will have to pay attention to how much time you spend in-country and cannot really plan something long term

      5) Do another degree at a foreign university. Some countries its still free at Masters level, and some of them still teach these in English. If you do this route, I would suggest ensuring its a degree that will make you marketable locally AFTER the course, and that you don’t sink a bunch of money into it.

      6) The classic – find and marry/cohabit with an EU citizen. Its what I did in the end, only now we are caught up in the Brexit drama and don’t know if we will have status past the end of March to keep working in the UK (still a US citizen, I derive rights from him). Moving to his country is not an option at this stage, so with the holiday time we have coming up, going to be some frank discussions on him looking for work in the Netherlands, Ireland, or Germany as a backstop, although we could be going home to the US too.

      I know this can all sound really frank, but if I didn’t want to achieve the same goal, I wouldn’t have quit my job and moved anyway. I get it – I really do, and I don’t regret it for a moment, but it can be a long, difficult, challenging process filled with a LOT of frustration. But I would have hated to have wondered what could have been had I not tried! This won’t happen tomorrow, but its something worth working steadily towards. Good luck!

      1. Narwhal80*

        Thanks, Anoymatic Yo-Yo! This is really awesome. Best of luck contending with Brexit. Thank you for taking the time to reply so thoroughly.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Is it possible to apply for jobs at companies that have offices overseas? And send people from your company overseas?

  113. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Small update on something I posted a few weeks ago?

    If any of you remember, this client office has an annoying AF guy who blasts music from his computer, vapes inside and is generally loud. We schedule a meeting with our Team Lead, who is super busy supervising various projects at the same time, and we explained how difficult is to concentrate and do some work whenever this guy is around. The reaction was… not what we expected. Team Lead said this is not the first time people have complained about the same person, but there’s little to do since he’s special, which means he’s so well connected and godfathered/protected that nothing but gross misconduct could get HR involved. So basically the only we can do now is to start a passive-agressive music war.

    1. Temperance*

      So what you’re saying is, you need all of us to give you our best suggestions on how to passive-aggressively get back at him? ;) What a fun Friday task!

  114. Bunny Banshee*

    Hi everyone, any job search recommendations for those in rural areas? My mom recently moved to middle-of-nowhere Ohio when my father’s job transferred him to a new facility. She has been job searching for over a year now. Job openings are rare, commutes are often excessive, and she is typically over-qualified for the positions.

    I’ve tried to help her with interview, cover letter, and resume advice (much of which has been gleaned from my own professional experience and from AAM), but nothing has materialized for her yet. Some of the interview stories she’s told are shocking (i.e. a man asking if she was religious, an interviewer showing up in stained overalls, an interviewer sobbing during the interview when talking about putting her kids on the school bus for the first time) and out of sync with anything I’ve seen in my experience.

    I’m not sure what to tell her at this point. My mom has substantial career experience and presents herself professionally. The few “Sorry Charlie” letters she’s received mostly hinge around the fact that she is over-qualified for the opening. She’s looking to get back into Human Resources or event planning, but the only jobs that have come close to aligning with her experiences have been receptionist jobs.

    I’ve helped her pare her resume down, remove fancy-sounding job titles, and encouraged her to stop wearing formal business attire to interviews, but nothing is working. This is coming at a terrible time. Not only has the move been a dramatic shift for her, but she’s also starting to “feel her age” and blames her inability to find work on being in her mid-50s after seeinng a few of the jobs she’s pursued go to younger women.

    I guess I need advice in two areas:
    1) How can I support my mother during this time? I’m feeling emotionally drained. Her last job ended when she was terminated after reporting her boss for sexual harassment. She’s been enmeshed in a lawsuit for almost two years with the company and, without hard, physical proof, she’s probably going to lose. After years of trying to boost her confidence and give her career advice, all while trying to manage my own life struggles, I’m feeling bitter and tired.
    2) Has anyone had job search success in rural areas? Remote work suggestions, perhaps? Should advice regarding cover letters, resumes, interview tactics, and self-presentation change because of her new locale?

    1. LQ*

      This is really hard. My recommendations for success are talking to neighbors, letting people know she’s looking. But she may have to suck up a longer commute than expected, like much longer, what’s the nearest decent sized city? Longer commutes are quite common. Depending on where she is if she wants event planning looking toward resortier areas which (again long commute perhaps) but might be the only way to find something not receptionist.

      Also if she is in a church network there.

      And take care of yourself too.

    2. Auntie Social*

      Can she volunteer at the local hospital? Then they get find out that she has mad skills and could work in HR or another dept, and not just volunteer at the gift shop, they’ll be all over her. She can say she likes volunteering and wants to make sure her skills don’t go rusty. A volunteer got noticed that way at my old hospital employer and now works for the CFO.

    3. ACDC*

      Rural areas are tough. I lived in one for about 2 years and the job market’s are nonexistent. Chances are she’ll be overworked and underpaid, because there’s a line of people out the door who would take her job in a heart beat (often for less money too!). I like the idea of volunteering and otherwise finding good extracurricular type of things to do to keep her spirits up.

    4. Anna Held*

      Tell her to lean heavily on her church network. Join clubs there, or if she isn’t religious, join Rotary or the like. Volunteer (the hospital idea is a good one). There must be something she can endure if she can’t enjoy. Networking will be key.

      Is there any chance she could start her own business? It sounds like she’s got a range of solid skills, there just isn’t a lot and she’s out of the usual price range. Even if it’s just her working out of her home for one or two clients, it’d be better than nothing.

  115. Dee Dee*

    Gaaah. I was home sick yesterday but it was not the most restful of days. An email came through that the head of our department has been let go and now the department has been restructured into another one. Nobody else has been let go yet but I’m sure there will be more changes afoot. This is the second major restructuring I’ve been through in just two years with this company. They’re centralizing stuff, which makes sense, but with that comes the elimination of redundancies etc etc. The new boss held a conference call later in the day and honestly some of what he was saying made sense, but I’m still terrified.

    I don’t know what it portends but there’s sure to be a lot of uncertainty ahead. Now I’m starting to worry that I should have taken one of the other jobs I was recruited for in the last few months.

  116. Crylo Ren*

    My husband finally returned to work this week, 2 months after a grisly on-the-job accident. He now has a partly bionic arm and has regular physical therapy. He’s been instructed to do some stretching exercises at least 4x daily, and as such they’ve become a bit of an unconscious habit for him. For example, while we’re watching TV, he’ll do his flexor stretches and rotate his wrist around while we’re sitting on the couch.

    However, in his 1:1 yesterday, his manager told him that he needed to be more conscious of when he’s doing them – they’ve noticed him doing his stretches at his desk or when he’s walking to the bathroom or lunchroom, and they told him to stop doing his wrist exercises where people could see him. Seems that she’s concerned that he’s being “too obvious” about his wrist not being 100%, and people are spreading rumors that something is still wrong with him and that he shouldn’t be back at work. Also, his wrist exercises remind other people of the accident, and she doesn’t want them to be traumatized.

    He’s going to do what his boss asked because he’s a generally agreeable, easygoing person (bless him), and doesn’t want to make waves after having been out of work for a couple of months, but privately I’m scoffing at the request. I feel like the least she could do would be to shut the rumor mill down – to let the offended parties know that they need to mind their own business and that he’s been evaluated appropriately and is fit to be back at work. I’m annoyed that instead of standing up for her employee, his boss is instead asking him to make a sacrifice and carve out time from his already busy schedule to find a completely hidden spot to do these necessary exercises.

    But, I’m probably being too sensitive about this because I’m traveling some of this healing journey with my husband and it’s been rough and I’m very protective of him. What says the commentariat?

    1. LQ*

      I’m entirely with you on this. And my guess as to what the exercises are could also be fairly ordinary at your desk kinds of stretches too. (I fairly frequently do wrist stretches on my way to and from the bathroom just because I’m going to be sitting back down at the computer and it’s a good time to stretch them out.) Especially because it was an on the job accident the boss should be shutting that kind of speculation down hard, imagine what HE has to deal with to be reminded and traumatized! Ish. Yeah. Bad boss big time.

    2. TGIF*

      I have to say I am with you on this one. He was in an accident at work that requires him to do stretches/physical therapy. how is this different from the woman I work with who has arthritis in her ankle and rolls it multiple times a day.

      Regarding the rumor mill that is also his manager’s place to shut down. I get wanting to be sympathetic to the co-workers being reminded of the accident but what about being sympathetic to your husband, who was actually in the accident!

    3. animaniactoo*

      I’m with you. I think he might be able to approach it as “I was considering your request that I do the exercises out of sight of everyone, and I agreed in the moment because I’m always willing to help out and didn’t have much time to think it through. I think we need to look at how this is approached differently, because doing these exercises has become somewhat unconscious for me and I actually NEED them to be that way so that I can be on top of them and continue to fully heal / stay limber from the injury. Can we talk about how the other employees perspectives might be managed rather than my making an adjustment that would probably be detrimental for me?”

    4. WellRed*

      This is wrong of her on so many levels. Especially the part about controlling what he does while walking (WTAF?).
      Personally, I think he should ignore her, but: how about the dreaded doctor’s note? Or, reasonable accommodations (Especially since this is a WORKPLACE accident).
      And, while it would be nice of her to shut down rumors (is he sure this is accurate and not just her saying that), he can cheerfully shut them down himself, possibly enlisting the aid of a trusted co-worker or two.
      And, remember, while you have traveled some of the healing journey, this leg of it is his own. Gotta let the baby bird out of the nest (sorry, can’t think of a better metaphor).

      1. LCL*

        Yes-this is a workplace accident, so L and I would have been involved. He should go to the doctors who treated him and ask to get the need to stretch added to the paperwork. (I am being deliberately vague because the paperwork and process will differ in every state.)

  117. NepCo*

    Experience at a radio station or theater (either volunteering or for work)? I’d love to hear about it!

    Of course, those are two are unrelated but I’ve always been interested in what it would be like to work for one or the other, and I would love to hear about your experience.

    Thank you!

    1. Avocado Toast*

      My “side hustle” is handling communications for a community theatre, and I also work in producing/managing different shows there. What do you want to know? :)

    2. curly sue*

      I’ve worked wardrobe for a variety of places in the past, and currently teach in a theatre dept. I’m not sure what you’d like to hear about, but I can certainly answer questions!

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      In the early 90s I volunteered at a the public radio station in a nearby city. I responded to a call for backstage volunteers for their weekly live show. When I got laid off, I asked the assistant producer if she could use weekday help. I freed her up for scheduling by doing her grunt level paperwork. Often boring as blazes, but it got me out of the house once a week on a regular schedule, gave me a resume item of interest to interviewers, etc. And I was sometimes around for some of the show-planning discussions — enough to rule out the career path for myself, actually.
      The show-volunteer part was much more fun… a lot of physical work with other enthusiastic people. It was energizing. I only stopped because I took a FT job with a crazy long commute, and I no longer could bear to drive anywhere on weekends.

  118. Volunteer hours?*

    Can I just vent? I had such a busy week at work (and there are only 2 weeks per year where I am SUPER busy and this is one of them). The admin assistant this week is entering all the time sheets late (I get it, she gets busy to) and was totally fucking rude to me as I was ASKING HER to update mine to reflect the overtime I had to work last night (with boss’s permission). Like, look… it’s not MY FAULT you’re entering in the timesheets 2 days late and you’re in a hurry, but come the fuck ON. She actually told me “I’M NOT LISTENING” as I tried to tell her to update my time sheet (WHICH SHE FUCKING HAD ON HER DESK IN A PILE). I got so angry that I stormed out and mumbled “I guess I just volunteered last night then” under my breath. I know, I shouldn’t get so ANGRY over such stupid shit but it made me so mad!!! Like, wtf?!?!? If I would have sent her an email my time sheet wouldn’t have been updated (and I know email is the ideal option). Ugh, guys. Sorry I am a ranty baby today.

    1. Mazzy*

      It’s a valid point, I get it. You’re going above and beyond for your job and part of that should be that the other side accommodates you in some ways, at the least, being OK with last minute changes to a time sheet.

    2. KR*

      That’s completely understandable that you got frustrated. Honestly I would email her and CC your boss and say, “Just summarizing our discussion today about adding x amount of overtime to my timesheet for Thursday evening, as you seemed quite busy when we spoke earlier. Thank you for your attention to this matter.” And if your boss asks you about it (or when you don’t get paid. …) you can mention the rudeness. That gives Admin time to save face and apologize. If you’ve had problems with this admin before, you could use this as a discussion point to ask, “When Admin yells she isn’t listening to me or does x, what would you like me to do?”

      1. Anna Held*

        I like this. Also, remember that it’s illegal for her to be doing this! She could get the company in big trouble, and why do I think she’d blame you? Document the conversation, cc your boss. Make her do her damn job.

    3. Joielle*

      Oh man, I’m to this point with one of our admins and it’s miserable. We’re in the middle of hiring a new position, and this admin is receiving all the applications by email and printing them out in packets for me and the rest of the hiring committee to review. She keeps missing parts of the applications… like I’ll go to review one and there’s no cover letter attached, but the printed out email lists a cover letter as one of the attachments. So I ask her to please print it out for me, and she makes a BIG SHOW of coming over and being like “I can’t believe it’s not there, I swear I saw it, can I just look at that for a second, I know I looked at these” and it’s like, I looked for it! I also would prefer for us to not have to have this conversation a dozen times! Just keep track of what you’re doing and we wouldn’t be having this problem!

      Sorry to reply to your vent with my own vent! It’s just so irritating. I feel you!!

  119. LQ*

    I’m hoping to hire a project manager to help me out because the people we have who are supposed to be project managing aren’t and I’m drowning in work because I’m shadow project managing everything. I would like to have some kind of practical question in the interview but I’m kind of stumped. The best I’ve come up with is ask them to facilitate a plan of how the interview itself should go, it would be a bit awkward and weird and odd power dynamics but that’s what the job is going to have too so it would have good insight.
    I had an interview for a scrum master earlier this year and at the end of the interview asked them to facilitate a retrospective of the interview which worked out really well and we got a great hire from that. So I want something that’s going to have a little bit of a similar factor here I think.

    Any suggestions?

    (And yes, I am indicating how on fire the problem is in my interview questions, but I don’t think that I’ll actually be allowed to ask “Tell me about a time when you were the project manager for a project where multiple parties refused to communicate and believed in managing money organically.”)

    1. Nala*

      I’m a PM and I think I would be a bit thrown off if someone asked me how I would manage an interview! I don”t think you would ask that exact very specific question you listed, but I’ve totally been asked in interviews “tell me about a time when you dealt with a communication issue on a project and how did you resolve it?” You could then ask a separate question about their experience managing budgets. I’ve had to do a case study before for a PM interview where i walked through how I would design a project.

      1. LQ*

        I think a case study is totally what I need to do! Thank you!!

        The communication question is really close to what I actually have on my sheet right now so that’s good to hear too. Thank you.

      2. AnotherAlison*

        I’m with Nala. I don’t work in technology, so I’m not sure if it makes sense that it worked out for your scrum master, but as a regular project manager, I’d think it was weird, especially if you focused the time on this hypothetical thing instead of asking about my actual experience. I have asked people specific hypothetical questions about how they would manage their schedule, budget, late suppliers, scope creep or whatever my most recent problem de jour was, but a hypothetical about something that isn’t a core function of the job seems off.

        I’d ask some “tell me about” questions related to difficult projects, stakeholders, etc. If you’re interviewing someone who doesn’t have a doozy of a project in their history that they’re prepped to tell you about, they’re probably not the right person for the job.

        1. LQ*

          I definitely want to lean on asking about actual experience, but I want to see a bit of action too. I think the case study might get at some of that. I don’t want to take a lot of time with it, but I’d like to see something that is doing rather than just talking about. Although your point about a doozy of a project is a good one. I think I’ve got some questions that will get at that (and some Elle mentioned will fill in a few of the gaps I have).

    2. Elle*

      Yeah, I’m a PM, and I wouldn’t be down with this interview strategy. I think you’ll learn more from STAR questions about organization, teamwork, and project planning capabilities.
      “Tell me about a time you had to get someone to do something for you, who wasn’t in your chain of command”
      “How do you stay organized when you’re juggling multiple jobs?”
      “How do you like to run project meetings? How do you feel about status meetings?”
      “Tell me about a time a project you managed had budget over runs?”
      “How often do you complete projects on schedule and budget?”
      “What do you do when you need to make a decision on a project you don’t fully understand the technical details of?”
      “How do you settle disputes about the best way to proceed amongst your team?”
      “What do you do when your team hits a roadblock they can’t solve?”
      “When do you tend to escalate problems to your manager?”
      There are also specific project management techniques people should know about – right to left vs left to right planning, good MS Project abilities, general knowledge of budgeting, etc.

      1. LQ*

        Thank you. I’m very much planning to lean on the experience/tell me about a time kinds of questions, but I do want to see something in action. This may be a little bit of response to the current people (not my staff) who talk a very pretty game but as soon as you expect work they wilt…I want to put a keyboard in front of someone or a white board or a pad of paper and pen and see if they cease to function. Hm. I like the case study idea, but I might also have to trust that I’m a better judge of interviews than the person who hired these other folks.

        And your questions are great! The staying organized one really hits a couple of weak spots in my question list. Hugely appreciated.

  120. New Manager Help*

    Hi Everyone! I have been looking forward to this all week. This is going to be long, but please please please be honest in your feedback if you hang in until the end.

    I recently received a promotion and am director of a small department. I will have 1 direct report and have 1 person who reports to me for project purposes but is actually a contract employee through one of our vendors. We serve 3,000 people.

    My question is regarding my direct report – she started last Monday (October 15th) and is the replacement for my old position. She will be administering training programs and there is a lot of flexibility when it comes to making changes, improvements, etc. and I am very happy to be turning the reigns over to someone so qualified to make them. I trust her judgement completely and her technical skill is a level that makes me think she should be able to hit the ground running within a month.

    The issue is 1) I am new manager who needs helps establishing boundaries with her and 2)she has made a few comments that make me wonder if I need to work on her realizing I am, in fact, her manager. Just for background I have managed projects and previously worked in HR and have had to assist in firing people, had disciplinary conversations, had to discuss dress codes, have hard conversations (we sort of babied management where I worked and I ended up doing a lot of what they should have been).

    Specifics of 1) & 2) are below:

    1) New report is a very open & talkative. Some things aren’t really appropriate for me to know (family, person, drama) but I catch myself getting caught in the conversation & letting it go on too long. I need them to find another outlet to discuss these things with – because I don’t want them to skew my perception and quite frankly I don’t have the time for a 30-45 minute personal conversation daily. It’s only their 2nd week so I want to build trust, and I want her to feel like she can ask me questions, but how can I combat the derailing (for myself as much as them!)

    2) Last Thursday (her 4th day on the job) we were walking out of a class they just shadowed me in and new report said “I know technically you are supposed to be my boss but I was really hoping we could be more like equals”.

    Fast forward to this Thursday. They were shadowing me in another class and … corrected me – in front of the class. Someone asked a question at the end of training about the origin of a teapot design change and I responded that “the standard for teapot design changed as a result of this related teapot research….” New hire says, can I comment, too? And proceeds to say “Well, actually, the reason for the change in design is completely opposite reason, not the reason new manager said”…. I was flabbergasted that they corrected me in front of the group, and in the “Actually….” way.

    Am I looking too much into this? I know when I didn’t agree with my boss/predecessor I would not say anything in the classroom to correct her, but talk to her about it after to discuss our different points of view. But we all do things differently, so I want to make sure I am being objective here. FWIW, I am going to research her reasoning more b/c I think it could be valid, but was just a little shocked at the public correction.

    There are a few other small things (late every day but day #1 so far by about 15 – 30 minutes, not following dress code, texting while sitting with me learning a process,etc.) but I would rather spend energy on figuring out a way to have the new report view me/respect me as her manager, not her peer and establish healthy and appropriate boundaries, especially since she is doing the job and the tardiness/texting doesn’t seem to be affecting her core job. And, honestly, as long as they hit deadlines, do the job well and are on time for meetings and calls I am fine with whatever schedule/pace of work they prefer.

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I wanted to follow up on your request the other day to be more like equals. I’ve thought about it and I don’t think that’s going to work for the way I need this position to run, so please understand that I am not your manager “technically”, I am your manager “in fact”.

      Towards that I would like to apologize as I have let a couple of personal conversations go on longer than they should have, and I will try to be more on top of that going forward.

      I would also like to address your correction during training. While you did ask if you could say something, your phrasing afterwards was definitively contradictory and didn’t leave room for debate or a graceful way for me to manage the fact that we have different knowledge about it. If you have what you believe to be contradictory information, please phrase it as “It’s my understanding that…” and I will take it from there to say that we can do some more research to get back to them with a firmer answer or however I choose to handle it.”

      1. Drop Bear*

        I’d maybe rephrase the first sentence to ‘preference’ rather than ‘request’ but otherwise I second this – the language is spot on I think.

    2. Psyche*

      I agree with animaniactoo. You need to make it clear that you are not equals. Since she is new, I suggest you schedule a meeting for late next week to give her feedback on what she is doing well and what needs to improve. At that meeting you can tell her that you would prefer she not correct you in public unless it is urgent and instead bring it to your attention in private if she thinks you are mistaken. You can also tell her that you need her to be punctual and follow the dress code.

    3. dear liza dear liza*

      Whoa! You are right to want to clarify roles now; your report is out of bounds.

      I like the spirit of animaniacstoo’s scripts, but I would remove the apologies and softer language. For example, I wouldn’t say you considered her proposition that you two were equals. Instead, I’d say, “You caught me off guard when you suggested we were equals, so I didn’t say anything then, but I wanted to clarify: this role reports to me. I look forward to working with you and collaborating on projects, but it’s essential that you understand that I’m ultimately responsible for this department and will be leading it.”

      The derailing: Giver yourself 5 minutes for chit chat. Then look at your watch. “Oh, wow. That sounds rough/interesting/like something else. I have to work on Project X now- get ready for Sting’s phone call- Etc.” And leave. If you want to have some room for chit chat, you can arrange for a coffee break or other time-limited activity.

      As for the class interruption- heck to the no. She undermined you. I’ve done a lot of classroom observation, and rule #1 is you never interfere with the class (barring escaped tigers or something.) I’d set up a time to review what makes for a successful teaching shadowing- what you are doing, what she should be doing, what the goals are. Explain what acceptable behavior is, including “If you disagree with something I said [barring an escaped tiger is coming scenario], please wait until we’re in private to discuss it.”

      Overall, I would talk about your expectations- including the professional norms she’s breaking- and finish with the classic AAM, “Going forward, can you do these things?”

      1. ACDC*

        +1

        Your direct report doesn’t get to discuss the nature of the organizational chart. The facts are the facts, and the fact is you are the boss and she is the employee. Nip this in the bud ASAP.

      1. BRR*

        Bingo. The good part about telling her that you’re her manger is that, well you’re her manager. You have the authority to let her know what’s up.

    5. Mazzy*

      OMG no, no, no, you need to have this conversation ASAP. It will be very uncomfortable but not having will also be. I had this with a former direct report. She never, ever would acknowledge I was her boss. She introduced me to her friends once as her coworker. She still says “when we worked together” when we talk, as she is still here in another role. It is so awkward. She went to my boss with questions because she looked like the real boss, when in reality, she has no clue how to even answer the questions my employee had. Then she caused a bunch of drama before her review in an attempt to make me look bad and I thought it was to shift the power dynamic so that she wouldn’t have to be held accountable for this.

    6. Gaia*

      First of all, I want to remind you not to get down on yourself about this. Managing is a skillset and one that people often learn “on the job.” There aren’t great boundaries right now, but you show great insight in realizing that early on and wanting to correct course.

    7. valentine*

      She’s gunning for you and chipping away at you. She’s a train wreck who isn’t good at the job, unless the dress code, punctuality, and not interrupting your supervisor don’t matter. This is the honeymoon period. Are you sure you want to keep her? Choose stock phrases to stop her personal gushing. If necessary, flat-out tell her it’s inappropriate/you’re not the appropriate audience. Don’t hold her hand or endlessly brainstorm professional clothing/behavior. Don’t let her turn it around and task you with shaping her up.

  121. Can't remember*

    I wrote a few weeks ago with a question about applying for a position at a competitor and reaching out to people I knew there. Well, I ended up applying and heard back from HR last Monday (via email). They said they would like to discuss the position and that they liked me for another role that I had not applied for. I said I would be interested in hearing about both. Well, here it is Friday, and I never got a response. I definitely understand how these things work, so I am rolling with it, and if they call, they call and if they don’t, they don’t. I would be more pushy about it, but while I want the “job,” the company culture and commute give me pause. I am not 100% sure I would make the move. It would depend on the interview.

    A 45 hr work week is the written minimum, they give half your comp in bonus, it’s a 45 minute commute vs my 20 min one, the ESOP requires 5 yrs to vest, and with the bonus structure, it is hard to leave if it is a bad fit. On the pro side, they specialize in what I do very well, where my current employer gets small fraction of our revenue from what I do. So, while I get great recognition from my [dysfunctional management] I will not likely get into the leadership roles I want. And I already work more than 45 hrs most weeks, so that wouldn’t really matter. We’ll see what next week brings.

  122. Admin of Sys*

    Our office is designed to have a shared breakroom / kitchen area that has microwaves and toasters and such. There’s a drying rack for dishes. There are a large amount of ‘common use’ dishes in the cabinets and such. A coworker recently got very upset when their dish, which had been left to dry on the drying rack overnight, got put in the ‘common use’ cabinet. I feel like this was an overreaction. (especially because it was a company branded mug, so it wasn’t tremendously obvious it was a personal dish)
    But now I’m wondering if it’s okay for me to treat the dishes left on the drying rack as available for whatever, as long as I wash them out and put them back after? I mean, I try not to abscond with them to my desk, but I realized the other day that someone may not be okay with me using ‘their’ mug that was left out for my soup, even if I washed it and put it back on the rack. (it was a neutral mug, not a ‘worlds best dad’ mug or such)

    So – if something that isn’t obviously a personal sentimental dish is left in the kitchen that has a lot of common use dishes, is it safe to assume that it may be used by someone other than who brought it in? That’s what I’ve always thought when it came to my own dishes. (I mean, I don’t think it’s okay to wonder off with them – the 3+ forks I’ve lost to the commons is a bit annoying.) But if they’re left in the kitchen, do folks think it’s okay for anyone in the kitchen to use them?

    1. nice going angelica*

      I think that anything not obviously marked as your own and left in a space with communal objects will reasonably be treated like a communal object. If someone cares a ton that others not use their stuff, the things need to be prominently labeled and/or promptly removed. It’s not really reasonable to expect all staff to have a comprehensive inventory in their heads of what items are truly communal.

    2. Nacho*

      No. You shouldn’t be using other people’s stuff unless they give you permission, and stuff they’ve left out to dry is not automatically stuff you have permission to use. If there’s a communal area stocked with things your company has purchased for you to use, use those things, but I agree with your coworker here.

      1. Penny pen pen*

        But if it’s not clear that it’s actually someone’s and not just part of the communal supply? That’s how I’m reading this. Unless it’s clear that it belongs to someone, it’s fair game to use.

        1. Jane*

          Exactly, unless there is some really clear way to distinguish company vs. personal dishes, like if the company’s dishes were all one style or something.

          At my workplace, we have a variety of styles that are communal dishes–I think they just go buy them from the thrift store when we need more! So there’s no obvious distinction.

          If you leave your dishes in the communal drying rack, people may think that they are communal. If you don’t want them taken, don’t leave them there. I’ve accidentally left mine a number of times, and just had to sit tight and hope it turned up (they always have).

    3. JennyFair*

      This can be a big deal. I have a close friend who can only use dishes and utensils washed in one of two soaps. If she were to leave a dish to dry and come back thinking it was as she’d left it, but in the meantime someone had washed it with Dawn or whatnot, she could become quite ill.

      1. Penny pen pen*

        But presumably she wouldn’t do that if she knows the risks of leaving them there like that? That’s a legitimate reason to be concerned, but it doesn’t seem like that’s what’s happening in this situation.

    4. Murphy*

      We have some university colors mugs/plates in our kitchen. Anything outside of that, even if I’ve seen it sitting there for a while, I always assume belongs to somebody and I don’t use it.

      In the case of the company branded mug, I agree that they can’t get too upset about that. That would certainly appear to be a common use item.

    5. Psyche*

      My personal feeling is that if you don’t want anyone else to use them, don’t leave them in the kitchen. You can quickly dry it with a towel and take it back to your desk.

      1. Anon From Here*

        Yeah … don’t take anything to the office that you can’t stand losing (read: having stolen from you), and if you want your own special dishware, keep it at your desk, not in the kitchen. But really you may lose it (read: have it stolen) anyway.

  123. Curious Cat*

    Not really a question but hopefully others can connect with this and find some solace! My company has been slowly rolling out the DiSC assessment to all employees and my team did it this past week. I’m a strong S and we spent a lot of time talking about how all high-level leadership are D/Di/iD in our org and how problematic that can be for S’s and C’s who aren’t as gregarious or “go-getters” as the D’s and i’s. It was amazing to see one of the management on my team is actually also a strong S and that it’s possible to be more of a steady, quieter, consistent employee who doesn’t always have immediate, wonderful, beautiful ideas and instead is just a solid worker all-around make it to management. Provided me with a bit of hope. That’s all. There’s not further point to this comment :)

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Im currently working with someone like this, a a project director. He. is. incredible. Nothing and i mean NOTHING fazes this guy. Behind on something? Two seconds and he can figure out a way around the time crunch. Me losing my mind over the process inefficiency and yet another director changing their mind? No problem, he knows exactly how to defuse me. Its incredible. Everyone on the team loves him (hes a loaner from another dept for a year) BECAUSE hes so calm, level, and fair. I BEG him to teach me how to be like that and he doesn’t know – its just how he is.

      I really wish corporations would actually embrace everyone’s talent rather than a) lip service to the idea and b) considering the loud blowhards the “successful ones”. Somewhere in the background there is usually a person like my project director calmly and collectedly holding all the bs together.

  124. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    About 6 months into my current job I was re-titled to a very misleading title. Let’s say I was hired as a Senior Rare Tea Specialist and I was re-titled Senior Coffee Educator. I don’t actually do any coffee education, I continue to focus on rare teas and manage our rare tea program and do some rare tea education (but never coffee education). I pushed back at the time, but I was new and I lost the battle. My organization (a Fortune 500) wanted everyone to be titled something standard, and I’m the only person who works on rare teas at the company, so they went with what they thought was the closest. (it’s not).

    Now that I’ve been here nearly 3 years, I’m starting to look for new jobs in rare teas, and I’m realizing that it’s going to be really hard to find a position in my field if it looks like I’ve been doing coffee education for 3 years. I’m thinking about approaching my manager to see if she will advocate for me to have a title change. I’m thinking something like “Program Manager” which is one of our standard titles, and I can add in “of rare teas”. But how do I frame this request to my boss, given that I already lost this battle once? I really just want to be honest that I think this title is holding me back in my career progression, but I’m a little worried she’s going to see it as a clear indication that I’m considering moving on (true). Any advice on how to approach this?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      No advice on the “how” but I saw a case like this play out, and it wasn’t good. I think you have a good “why” and shouldn’t let this go.

      My colleague was a chemist with a BS, and most of our professional roles have the “engineer ” title. Legally, he can’t hold that title. So, while his j-o-b was a highly skilled SME on corrosion and other plant chemistry stuff, he got pushed into a bad salary band with nontechnical specialists and moved to a junior staff cube. He had some sort of good title that I can’t remember and was retitled as water specialist. He left this yr, but probably stayed 3 yrs after it all went down. All thanks to standardized titles. It was a loss to the company.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        This is what I’m concerned about. In fact, this has happened to me already to some degree. I have a PhD in rare tea, and all you need to be a Coffee Educator is a certificate (that I don’t hold), though most have a masters degree (my masters is in tea, not coffee education). But I’m increasingly being asked to handle a lot of administrative tasks that are not really using my expertise and things I’m being way overpaid for. (But whatever, if you want to pay me a fantastic salary to do a mail merge and stuff envelopes, weird, but I’ll do it, as long as it’s not the expectation that it’s a regular part of my work). Ultimately I really don’t want my job to mutate into something totally out of the realm of rare tea, and I worry that the title change is really part of why this is happening.

        I already do the suggestions below of including my functional title in addition to my official title on my resume. I really just want my official title to better reflect my actual role. Even within my company, I feel like it’s holding me back.

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      You don’t need to get your title officially changed, though I can understand why you’d want to. I believe Alison has done posts on listing your job title when it’s misleading or doesn’t line up with industry standards – basically you list both the official and practical titles, so it would look something like this:

      Senior Coffee Educator (Senior Rare Tea Specialist) | January 2017 – Present

      and then your accomplishments should clearly show that your job is rare tea and not coffee related.

      2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Thanks! I’m already doing this, but I still think it’s holding me back/is unclear. It also makes my title run on to two lines–way too long!

    3. Waiting At The DMV*

      You can put a functional title instead of an actual one. I once had a role where title was editor but work was program management – I put “Marketing Program Management” in place of a title.

      1. Gaia*

        I do this for one of my past jobs. The actual title is freaking ridiculous (think: guru/ninja/super hero variety) and says nothing about what I did or what function I was in. So, I use the industry standard and then clarify (briefly) if it is going to be relevant (like in background checks or references).

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’ve done this. My boss was imminently reasonable, so when I explained the title I was working under was actually the same title used at large in our industry for a completely different thing, he helped push to have it updated. I went in with a quick list of reasons it was a problem AND with the title I thought worked better (which it sounds like you have). I think it helped that it didn’t sound like a promotion or anything.

  125. Trixie*

    After 20 years, attending online classes to tackle undergrad and so far, it’s going pretty well. Unfortunately, I still have to take care of some math and science lab requirements. A lab requirement by distance education will be interesting. I’m checking to see if my original first college course effectively waives some of the requirements. Doesn’t hurt to check.
    Compared to 20 years ago, I do appreciate all the online resources available to help read class/professor reviews.

    1. Eso si que es - calcetines*

      Congratulations on your tenacity! During my undergrad, I needed Spanish to graduate and was desperate as I was working 40+ hours. I took the class online and begged my professor for at least a ‘C’ to pass, graduate, and leave for the Air Force. It was so hard but I made it. I also completed my Masters online, while living abroad. Online is the way to go, but I did miss being with my peers and I never got to walk in graduation.

      Good luck!

    2. Gaia*

      Yay! Congratulations!

      I don’t know about your school, but many have (or accept) alternatives to traditional lab courses. A friend recently started up her undergrad again (after a break of over 30 years) and she’s taking two non-lab science courses as opposed to a lab course. Another friend did a proctored lab at her local university for her online college.

  126. Nonprofit Panicker*

    Always fun when the accounting department at my 12-country organization takes multiple days longer than usual to distribute outgoing checks because they need to make sure we have enough money in the bank to both meet payroll and pay the bills this week… Gahhhh.

      1. Nonprofit Panicker*

        I *think* they managed to fit it all in. My paycheck hit, at least, and they gave me the checks I was expecting for vendors this week… but still, not terrifying at all, right? Yikes!

        1. KX*

          Ugh.

          If possible, and if they are cutting paper checks, I would be taking that right from the office to their bank to cash, and then deposit the cash at my bank. I wouldn’t trust a company like that not to bounce my paycheck. If it is direct deposit I think you are safe!

          1. Nonprofit Panicker*

            Direct deposit, thankfully. :) More worried about the future health of the org, frankly…

            1. ..Kat..*

              Sounds like it is time to job search – as you said, this company does not sound stable. If you are in the USA, the company is required to pay you by a certain date. Might be a good idea to take home any personal items that you would not want to lose. Also, performance reviews, etc that would help you find a new job. You could show up to work one day and find the office locked for good.

  127. Sunglasses*

    Any tips for “firing” volunteers? We have a couple volunteers that have been with us for years but are very resistant to change (pretty big restructure in 2016) to the point of being adversarial to staff and other volunteers. As much as their expertise is appreciated, they’re doing more harm than good at this point.
    We want to do this with as little drama as possible because they are well known in their field. If they were to speak too poorly of the experience, it would not be good for us.

    1. four lights*

      You could try “Thank you for your service, we no longer need your assistance. ” Maybe give a token of appreciation. Rather than go into why you have to “fire” them.

    2. Auntie Social*

      You’re reevaluating the entire volunteer program and you need their help since they’re most senior. Have them write out what’s great about volunteering there since they have the most experience. Give them a thanks and goodbye luncheon or plaque while you “restructure”.

    3. BetsCounts*

      Take a look through the archives, I think Allison has written about this in the past. Good luck!

      1. Anna Held*

        It’s going to be bad. It just is. If you can restructure in any way and get their input, I agree, that would be best — hopefully they’ll leave themselves. At the very least spend some time explaining why the changes are necessary (though I’ve certainly seen volunteers who are resistant to change no matter what!)

        At the same time, truly listen — it’s too easy to not listen to the people actually doing the work, and are passionate about it. Don’t just pay lip service. And yes, thank them and make a big deal. They deserve it!

        Strategize with staff about how to deal with the fall out, assuming there’ll be some. What board members do you need on your side? What scripts will you use when people ask? What donations can you expect to lose? What jobs won’t be performed? How will the other volunteers react?

        You’ll get through this, and yes, I believe you that it’s necessary, and your org will get through this. Be as respectful as you can while being matter-of-fact about ripping off the band aid.

    4. This Daydreamer*

      It seems to me that it’s not much different from firing someone from a job with a paycheck. Explain to them what would be needed for them to hold onto their positions, give them a period of time to wake up with routine feedback about how they are doing, then letting them go if they can’t do what they have to do. Do all of this as calmly and as professionally as you can.

      You can’t do much about what they say if they are let go, but I don’t think they’re likely to want to talk about being fired because they couldn’t accept change or get along with the people they work with.

    5. ..Kat..*

      How about “you don’t seem happy to be here. I’ve noticed X and Y. Have you considered moving on to volunteering opportunities at other places?”

  128. Shout Out to Europe*

    I’m an American, working in the USA, for a European company that recently acquired my company. They decided to standardize vacation hours across all employees, which means I get the same amount of vacation as my colleagues in Europe. Which means I get

    TWENTY FIVE DAYS OF VACATION!!!!!

    Thank you, Europe!!!

    1. Yay to Vacay*

      When we lived in Germany, as US military personnel, we were stationed with British NATO. They have a LOT of time off, as they board their kids back in the U.K. and travel to see them. Normally, U.S. military has 30-days off a year – we had 24 days off (2 days monthly which created a 4-day weekend) and two 2-week holidays, most of which we didn’t have to take leave depending on what we were doing. As a result we moved (PCS’d) with a full rack of leave time AND still visited 26 countries in 29-months.

      Enjoy your holidays! Do they discern between sick, vacation etc?

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      NICE!

      I have a friend who works for the German consulate in NYC. Her German citizen colleagues in the same office get six weeks. She gets two. So good on you that your new overlords have decided to treat everyone the same!

    5. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      My husband works in the US for a European-headquartered company… and they don’t get the European perks. INCLUDING if they get rotated through their European HQ; American staff who do two-year stints in the European offices apparently get American-standard vacation, while all their European colleagues (like, the folks sitting in the desk next to them) get a different standard. Wah wah.

      1. Shout Out to Europe*

        Ouch, that’s rough, hearing everyone else talk about their long “holidays” when you can barely visit home :(

  129. No Tribble At All*

    You know how we always complain about never hearing back? A while ago I submitted my resume for a job, didn’t hear anything, moved on. I just now got the “Thanks for applying, we picked someone else” email. Readers, by a while ago I mean in March. I could’ve had a baby with this job application. So, thanks for the email, I guess?

    1. Well Hello*

      I recently received a thanks but no thanks email from an organization I applied to 15 months ago. 15 months. I feel your pain.

    2. Gaia*

      Ugh. Tell me about it. Thanks for the consideration but also? I kinda figured. Get it together, people!

    3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I once got a rejection over a year after I’d applied. I didn’t even remember the job! I guess it’s great they followed up eventually?

  130. Post Script*

    What have people’s experiences been like switching from a large company (think Fortune 25) to a start up? Any advice or things to look out for?

    1. irene adler*

      The annual salary increase you are used to getting at the large company may not happen at start-up. So push for the max amount of dollars you can during hiring negotiations. You may not see any increase for many years (I went 9 years w/o any salary increase). And, you may not have the wealth of benefits either. So factor that into things. Push for all you can there, as well.

      Also, it’s not unheard of to remove benefits- we lost long-term disability insurance and health insurance for spouse and family. OTOH, they are more likely to want to add benefits if affordable.

      Will there be an HR person at the start-up? Often times, there isn’t. So who do you take HR issues to for resolution? Answer: no one. So you need to get along with others. In fact, you’ll want to get on the good side of top management. They will play favorites- especially when it comes to salary raises (favored employees get 6%, disliked employees get 1%). I’ve seen this happen. There’s no one to complain to when it does.

      Find out about work/life balance. Some start-up founders are so obsessive they never leave work. And they expect you to do the same. IF the benefits include things like on-site gym, snacks, catered lunches, shower, concierge services, etc., then you might ask what constitutes an average workday – 8am to 5 pm or 8 am to 5am.

      OTOH, there’s a lot less admin rules. Might even get to set your own hours. You can spend all your time doing productive things.

    2. ACDC*

      I’m the opposite. I’ve only ever worked at start ups, and then recently switched to a Fortune 500. Never going back!

    3. nice going angelica*

      There is a ton more freedom and less bureaucracy. One of the biggest things that I had to adapt to was the pace of the work–at my old job, if I brought up an idea in a meeting, there was a small chance that a study group would be deployed to discuss it and maybe consider implementing it in a year or two. At my new job, I instead got, “Cool, angelica, go ahead.” and now all of a sudden had a long list of major projects on my plate because I wasn’t used to the flat structure and fast decision-making.

      Also, there are a ton of policies and practices that we just don’t have yet. We don’t have an employee manual, a time record keeping system, and lots of other basic things. Not having that kind of stuff adds sometimes actual time, and sometimes just brain power you need to dedicate to things (“Can I give this person time off? I have no idea how much they have taken or what they’re entitled to…”).

      In general I think you need to be a bit more flexible and tolerant of ambiguity in any smaller environment but especially a start up, where things are probably changing fast. But you also get a ton more responsibility and authority.

    4. beanie beans*

      Pros:
      -Ability to work on a variety of types of work, more flexible in your “role”
      -Ah, soooooo much less bureaucracy! I feel so much more efficient with my time!
      -The company is willing to try new software, processes, etc quickly – faster to adopt change

      Cons:
      -Lack of processes, or documented processes. This is nice for flexibility but can be frustrating if you have to create a new process every time something new happens (how do I get reimbursed? What’s your maternity leave policy? Do we have a funeral leave policy?)
      -You’re more subject to the decisions a small leadership group makes (i.e. sometimes they make no sense!) rather than a more vetted corporate decision making process. (although big companies make weird decisions too!)

      1. ..Kat..*

        more cons:
        -very long hours
        -no experience with work place laws, so they frequently violate them
        -if this is in tech, beware the bro culture and what it will mean for you if you are a woman

  131. Accidentally became HR*

    My company has previously offered a health stipend for full time managers to buy their health insurance through ACA. They want to start offering health insurance themselves, but it’s more expensive and they are finding many people prefer to keep the stipend. The owner now wants to take away the stipend to help her pay for the increased cost of the company insurance, after previously letting us know if we opted out of insurance we would still get the stipend. Right now 11 people get the stipend and 3-5 are interested in the new insurance. Is this legal when we were all hired with a stipend benefit, to forcibly have it changed to a health plan option we don’t want?

      1. Accidentally became HR*

        Because it’s flat out taking away a benefit listed in offer letters. It’s not “we provide health insurance” and the previous version was a stipend and it’s changing, but I accepted a position that said “you will get a stipend of $x for health insurance” and now that money is just gone. The replacement is basically “you can choose to pay 3x that and get insurance”.

        2. Gaia*

          Unfortunately offer letters are not contracts and the terms can be changed (but not retroactively).

          This sucks, but it is likely entirely legal. Their stance will invariably be “we previous paid stipend of X towards your health insurance and we now still pay X towards your health insurance but through this plan.”

          It sounds like this is a small company? Their insurance rates are usually quite high. Do you know why they are wanting to make this change?

    2. Turn your head and cough*

      You can read up on ERISA, Employee Retirement Income Security Act, which is a set of federal laws designed to protect employees of private employers who provide pension, retirement, or profit-sharing plans or health insurance coverage.

      ERISA and Enforcement of Health Insurance Rights

      Once an employer decides to offer health-related benefits, its plan must be run in accordance with certain standards designed to protect the interests of employees and other plan beneficiaries (such as family members) under a federal law known as the Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA). Under ERISA, employers are required to take certain steps in connection with employee health benefit plans, including:

      Notifying employees (called “plan participants”) of plan eligibility standards, claim procedures, participant rights, and related changes to the plan; and
      Managing and investing plan funds according to the best interests of plan participants.

      https://employment.findlaw.com/wages-and-benefits/health-insurance-and-benefits-your-rights.html

    3. Turn your head and cough*

      You can read up on ERISA and Enforcement of Health Insurance Rights and find out if it applies

      ERISA – Once an employer decides to offer health-related benefits, its plan must be run in accordance with certain standards designed to protect the interests of employees and other plan beneficiaries (such as family members) under a federal law known as the Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA). Under ERISA, employers are required to take certain steps in connection with employee health benefit plans, including:

      Notifying employees (called “plan participants”) of plan eligibility standards, claim procedures, participant rights, and related changes to the plan; and
      Managing and investing plan funds according to the best interests of plan participants.

      https://employment.findlaw.com/wages-and-benefits/health-insurance-and-benefits-your-rights.html

    4. animaniactoo*

      Yes. The are providing you with health insurance options. They are not required to provide you with the same options you were hired with, nor ones that you particularly like or prefer.

      1. Natalie*

        They’re not even required to provide health insurance options, if you want to get down to it. They might have to pay a penalty but based on the employee numbers listed they may be under that threshold anyway.

        1. Accidentally became HR*

          They are required or have to pay a penalty. The difference in numbers is that only salaried staff qualify for the stipend, while all staff working enough hours have to be given the insurance option. No non salaried staff are currently interested though.

    5. It’s me*

      Benefits change unfortunately. There’s nothing illegal about it. You can ask for what you want (whether that be a raise to cover increase in costs or to keep the stipend), but the owner/company can certainly choose to change these benefits. If you are so unhappy with this, perhaps you should start job searching.

  132. How do I reject an internal candidate?*

    Anyone have any good tips or scripts for telling an internal candidate who was trying for her boss Jim (who is retiring)’s position that they weren’t selected? I will be needing to do this in the next couple of weeks most likely, and she is truly valuable in her current role, but not (in my eyes) ready to take on the additional responsibilities (including managing a team of 4) nor do I think she (Pam) has the big-picture strategic skills needed for the role in question. This take of mine was backed up by some of her responses in the interview process.

    It feels really negative to just say the above, and I want to be as supportive as possible. I would also understand if she doesn’t want to stay after this, and would absolutely provide strong references (and I do plan to include that when we talk).

    As added background, Pam’s been here about 8 years, and her boss Jim for a good 18 years. Jim strongly favors her getting the role, to the point of being somewhat inappropriately biased throughout this process. As an added fun bonus, Jim is very friendly with the CEO, Michael, who we both report to. Michael told me the ultimate choice is up to me, but most recently when I saw him (we are in a small satellite office), he had already heard about all the candidates from Jim, and told me that if I don’t choose Pam, I want to be sure that the candidate who gets it FAR surpasses her to make it all worth it. Ugh.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Generally, Alison’s advice has been to stress what skills they need to build on to be successful should another opportunity come up. So that the positive takeaway is “You can do this eventually if you…” rather than “you were just rejected as not good enough”. Stress the parts that they do have down as well and awareness of the value they bring to the role they’re in. And then give them some room to be upset about it.

    2. designbot*

      I’m not sure Michael’s wrong in that it will certainly be easiest to sell this if there’s something clear you can point to, like “Dwight has 10 years of experience managing” or “Dwight brings with him contacts in X industry that will help us grow our business.”
      Other than that, animaniactoo’s got the right idea, to focus on building her up in the future and being like “now that we know you want this, here are the things you can do to prepare for it…”

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Hmmm. I think I’m actually on team Pam. I’m assuming you’re Jim’s boss and would be Pam’s boss. Do you think she’s not ready now, or that this role wouldn’t ever be a fit for her? More specifically, is she lacking the big-picture strategic skills because she hasn’t had the opportunity to develop them, or because that is not her strength? If you thought she could develop into the right person, could you hire another “Jim” on a contract basis and focus on training Pam in the areas she is lacking and promote her in a couple years? Now, if she would never be the right person, I think the kindest thing to do is to tell her that she was highly recommended, but you don’t see this as a fit because of [honest reasons]. That will allow her to find a better fit in or out of the company.

      If you can’t tell, I’m personally vested in this because I’ve been/am Pam. May not be true for your place, but my place has a golden circle of people who get a lot more training and grooming, while some of us toil in our jobs doing truly excellent work but never gain the right experience to move up. My boss asked me to apply to her position when she left it a couple years ago, and I lost out to someone who had managed a department before. Well, no kidding he has more experience, but if we’re just going to rotate past department managers through different departments, I won’t ever get the experience.

      1. How do I reject an internal candidate?*

        I’ve definitely been the Pam, so I do feel bad that I won’t be able to promote her into this role. I definitely appreciate your thoughtful input on this. As for your questions, I don’t know that this role would ever be a good fit for her. It might, maybe way down the road, if she got more experience at other organizations tangential to this world, but that’s a tall order.

        The other (all external) candidates I interviewed are pretty clearly much more qualified and experienced in specifics that Pam doesn’t have, and the position is fairly critical to the reputation of our organization, which has been struggling a bit–therefore where I’d normally be all for grooming/training, we just don’t have the latitude to be able to absorb any lag to get there. We are also just too small to have a lot of opportunities for vertical movement, unfortunately, so there just isn’t much slack the system can take–if that makes any sense (i.e. there’s not a second person with Jim’s role who can take on a bit more while Pam develops those needed skills and experience).

      2. Auntie Social*

        I’m on Team Pam. Why not ask Jim to help you help Pam with what you think is a gap in her experience, like strategy skills? Can she shadow some managers? Take outside classes? What was the most help to Jim as he came up the ranks?

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      “I think you’re an amazing teapot maker because of X, Y, and Z. But being good at teapot managing is a very different skill set. Being a teapot manager requires that you can do A, B, and C.” If applicable, you can add, “I’d like to work with you on [whatever preparatory work or trial runs would be appropriate] over the next few months, because I think that if you can do that sort of thing well, you’ll be ready for this promotion in [whatever amount of time applies].”

  133. Umbrella*

    How do you feel working workinh for a DoD contractor? I’m very opposed to the US military and their war mongering but I got a job offer from a company that does many other things and it’s not one of the main DoD contractors, also my job would not in any way involve developing weapons (finance) but I still feel conflicted because they do manufacture weapons for the US army. But the pay is tempting. I don’t know what to do.

    1. grace*

      I’d do it. Either you’re so against it that no level of pay is worth it, or the pay is worth it, as is the stability and benefits of a gov’t job (assuming this is one?).

      It’s ultimately up to whatever you find can help you sleep at night, but personally, I find that more money makes it easier to deal with those issues. (Caveat that I don’t work for the DoD but wouldn’t have a problem with it; but I do work in pharma and have some ethical issues with that industry, and have made my peace due to other factors, like the fact that what I do will ultimately help patients.)

      1. Umbrella*

        It’s not a government position, it’s a private company that manufactures many, many things, weapons among them.

        1. Gaia*

          I, personally, could not work for a weapons manufacturer. Only you can make a decision as to whether or not you can. For me, that is less to do with DoD contractor (or even military) and more to do with an opposition to weapons of a wide variety and not participating in that economy.

    2. Wild Blue Yonder*

      I suggest that you do not work for them. Pay is rarely a suffice for a mission that you don’t support. Depending on how the interview would go, would you be honest with them in your ability to support their work? Your role, in finance, is a supporting element of their mission and work with the military. Ultimately, you need to ask yourself – are your values flexible and are you willing to compromise them for a job?

      I’m a combat Veteran married to a combat Veteran.

      1. Umbrella*

        I actually have an offer already and I have other options but this one offers the highest pay and it would look great on a resume. I just feel so conflicted because I want to start a family soon and the money would be great.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          If you were being hired specifically to support a DOD project, it sounds like it would be a bad fit. But if not, and it looks good on a resume and not just to its direct competition (other companies you probably wouldn’t want to work for), then I’d say take it. Future employers won’t assume you wholeheartedly support the company’s agenda, just that you are a high quality candidate.

          I have worked for several similar places and have never had to work on a project that conflicts with my values. They tend to have lots of opportunities for interesting non DOD work.

    3. Anon From Here*

      Are you in a position financially where you can limit your time there? As an example, I’m on a short-term contract with a company in an industry that … let’s just say it’s really out of character for me as a tree-hugging hippie. I’ve kind of put a dollar figure on how much I’ll sell my soul for, at least for half a year. We gotta put food on the table, you know? But since I’m not tying my future to this place, I’m here for the reference and the absurd paychecks that will allow me the lifestyle choice of some extra time before landing my next gig.

      1. Umbrella*

        I don’t plan on staying there for more than a couple of years and I’m not exactly desperate. I actually have another offer. But my spouse and I want to buy a home and start a family and this job would not only help us with that goal, it will also look great on a resume. I don’t know what to do.

    4. Temperance*

      I would take the job and do it for a period of time before moving on to something more palatable. I would also make a higher charitable donation to an org that opposes war (or some other cause I support).

    5. Gaia*

      I’m unemployed and was pretty heavily recruited early on after my layoff by a military contractor because my specific skill set is niche and very much in demand in their industry. I thought about it for a long time but, ultimately, decided I could not in good conscious use my skills to support their efforts. I want to be clear that not all military contractors would have ended up in the same decision bucket for me. It was this particular one, with their particular focus.

    7. ..Kat..*

      I am going to disagree with most of the comments. If this was your only option, I would say take it. But you have other job offers. If you are really opposed to weapons production and wars, don’t take this job. If you do take this job, at least be honest with yourself – you are willing to be against war and weapons production as long as you personally don’t have to make any sacrifices. This is called hypocrisy.

      1. Umbrella*

        That’s what I’m battling with internally now. I do have other options and one of them is something I’m very passionate about but it pays literally twice as little. I just feel like I might be betraying my family by taking a great job that I love that wouldn’t be able to contribute enough to finances and we would struggle.

    8. Easily Amused*

      I worked for one of the big contractors for 4 years and I am as anti-war as they come. I initially took the job as a part time on call gig after being unemployed for 6 months and trying to switch back to a career I hadn’t been in for 8 years. It was a lifeline and I grabbed it. I was made full time within a few months but always thought of it as “I’ll stay here until something better comes along”. Surprisingly, it was one of the most inclusive companies I had ever worked for and they really cared about employee’s well being. The raises were great. I was working in e-learning so I justified it to myself by thinking that the work I’m doing helps to keep people more safe through training. That said, I always had the constant nag that it didn’t fit my core values. 2 things to consider: will they require you to get a clearance level? I didn’t have one for 2.5 years and then all of a sudden, they required it – smack in the middle of the DoJ hack that subsequently caused my data (and that of my family members) to be compromised – all of a sudden, they weren’t very concerned about employee well being. It was all about “company needs” :( 2) the contract I was on was lost to another bidder after 4 years of work so I had to find another job whether it be within the company which they were willing to help with or outside. Government contracts can last for years and then just disappear rather abruptly. I found a job at a small “start up” and left about a month before the contract was up. They understood but I felt badly leaving my group before finishing what we could. That start up was the most toxic and dysfunctional place I’ve ever had the displeasure of working. All this to say, I wouldn’t dismiss the job out of hand as there are benefits to it that will help you and your family to be more stable and achieve future goals. I often thought, at the time, that I just wanted to get into an ad agency where I didn’t have to be tied to military work. However, I also realize that marketing and ads are out of control and selling cr@p to people that they don’t need and can’t afford isn’t exactly restful slumber inducing either.

      1. Umbrella*

        No, I wouldn’t need security clearance, I would only be involved in part of the business that doesn’t sell to the military and I wouldn’t have access to anything secret.

  134. Hermione Langstrumpf*

    I had a meeting today with my manager. We haven’t had a 1-on-1 since the summer because he was away on business trips, I was on business trips, he had meetings and then disappeared or cancelled. Now we finally could talk and it wasn’t pleasant.
    He said that in the new structure that HR is finalizing I will be reporting to him directly so I should really not feel worried about asking for a meeting or insisting I need to talk to him.
    The thing is, I have been reporting to him directly since January. When I said this, his response was mhmm yeah.
    I think this says it all about the organization.

  135. Trig*

    Snark time! The entire org just got an email from the head of sales encouraging us to ‘take our e-mail signatures to the next level’. We’re supposed to customize it for our market and customers, but provide key links (updated over time) to articles and reports that show how great we/our products are and highlight *Important Fact* about our new product.

    The example, his signature, included:

    “His Name and Title
    Company Name
    Phone Number
    EA’s Info

    List Intro 1:
    -Item One
    -Item Two
    -Item Three

    List Intro 2:
    -Item One
    -Item Two
    -Item Three
    -Item Four

    Paragraph in red font talking about Important Fact, with link to presentation!”

    SERIOUSLY!? Is this normal in sales? Is it an effective means of deseminating information? Is anyone reading that far?! (Luckily I don’t interact with externals at all, so I will continue to have no signature.)

    1. Murphy*

      That seems obnoxious. I expect maybe a “Check out the latest features added to our llama wrangling software *link*” in the signature, but not a whole sales pitch.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Yeah, one link out, maybe. That link could land you on the lists and whatnot, but to shove it all in like a second email lurking at the bottom of the original email is obnoxious. I would be very turned off if I received something like that. Especially since I group my emails by conversations/chain and I’d have to scroll past all that nonsense to get to the rest of the email chain any time the sender chimed in.

  136. designbot*

    So New Boss brought on another employee at my level… without telling me, or anyone else, that they were being brought on at this level. Now she doesn’t know how to fit into our team, and the younger designers are getting insecure, and it’s all because the guy can’t take the flipping time to communicate anything, and it’s driving me batty!
    On a more positive note, I switched my LinkedIn to signal recruiters that I was open, and immediately got two bites. So, maybe onward and upward is the way to fix this mess.

  137. Fourfourtwo*

    How do you pitch where you’d like your salary increase to be? I asked for a review and it’s led to a Company-wide review of salaries. My role is standalone (only teapot polisher in a sea of teapot designers) and our Company as a tradition of paying more than market rate to attract good people. There isn’t a scale to align to and my job is such that I came in as one thing but because of my background and skill set the role has evolved.

    I’ve been asked to advocate for myself and put it in writing with a figure I’m looking for. Any tips?

  138. Undecided Career*

    I have an appointment with a career counselor at the university I graduated from this Monday. I figured I need to look at other career options after I got a raise on an already-low salary. I am way overqualified in my current job b/c I have an associate and bachelor degree when the job requires a high school diploma or GED. I’m also not getting promoted to positions I’m qualified for at my current company.

    What I’m struggling with and working on is that the way I grew up is making me want to settle in my current job. My parents really pushed on the getting a PH.D so I can get a good job. They were also the type of people who would yell and berate me for every single mistake while doing homework or practicing music. They would tell me I was a failure of a person if I wasn’t literally perfect. It’s almost predictable how that turned out.

    So now I realize it’s not that I have no ambition; it’s that my ambition was crushed repeatedly and I wasn’t encouraged to think for myself. I’m not sure what questions to ask and what to look for at my appointment when this is hanging over my head.

    1. H.C.*

      RE: career counselor appointment, What sort of jobs interest you? What experience/skills do you have? and What are the common career paths for those graduating with your major? It’s worth exploring some of these on your own beforehand so you have more concrete ideas & expectations from the appointment. Also, update & bring your resume (+cover letter samples/portfolios, if that’s relevant) – they can review & provide constructive feedback on that too.

      I’d also re-examine your qualifications at the CurrentJob, as having a Bachelor’s when working at a job where G.E.D./HS diploma is the minimum requirement does not make you “way overqualified”. And your not being promoted can be due to any number of other variables. If you are not satisfied at CurrentJob, keep exploring opportunities elsewhere.

      Good luck.

  139. ArtK*

    A Friday gripe.
    (Background, our product team is very overloaded — probably 25% of where we should be in all departments, development, solutions and operations. I’m development; operations and solutions own the customer deployments.)

    Ops: Help us ArtK, you’re our only hope! Customer’s production system is throwing errors all over the place.

    ArtK, after getting access to this newly deployed system and looking at the configuration: Remember the e-mail I sent two weeks ago saying that we needed to make changes A and B to all customer systems and changes C and D to any with a release between X and Y? This is what happens when you don’t make those changes.

    ArtK, after some silence: So, how do I get you all to make these changes consistently?

    Ops and Solutions: *silence*

    *sigh* None of us have the time to do things over and over, but apparently nobody has the time to be proactive.

  140. Mkay*

    I would just love a quick reality check/bit of advice re: transferring in-house from one department to another, and all the norms that come with that, if anyone has any insight to offer.

    Yesterday, I was offered a new position at my current workplace – yay! It’s better pay, better hours, better coworkers, my own office – I am excited for this! But my boss is Definitely Not. Ever since she found out that I was applying for the position at all, she’s been completely icy to me: She won’t speak to me unless she absolutely has to, she assigns work that would usually go to me to other coworkers, and just ignores my presence in our department. It’s a complete 180 from our usually friendly rapport, and it’s really frustrating thinking that this is how my transition period will go.

    On top of that, current grand-boss negotiated with future boss so that I’ll officially transfer in a month, in order to help train my replacement and smooth out the transition. That makes sense, but grand-boss also wants the right to call me up to my previous job if her department ever gets swamped, even past my transition period. I’m wary of this, because my department has a reputation for being possessive of their employees, and people who have transferred out in the past have had to make a fuss before they were allowed to inhabit their new roles completely.

    Grand-boss has talked about me meeting with her and my future boss to discuss the whole transition process, and I’d like to bring some language in, if possible, regarding if/how/when my old department can lay claim to me. I’m leaving my department for a reason, and even if accepting this part-time status is a part of their terms for letting me go, I want to lay out boundaries (like, they can call me up for one month after I leave, and then I’m off their radar completely) without sounding like I just want to wash my hands of the whole department. I mean, I definitely do – but I’m also game to be a team player during my transition and train my replacement. I just don’t want to be tethered to my old job because my current bosses would rather rely on me than interview new candidates.

    Is this kind of process normal for a corporate firm? My current position is very entry-level and very replaceable, but this is also my first office job, so maybe I’m missing something?

    1. Rincat*

      The process you are describing sounds normal – working out a transition plan between the departments and training a replacement. Wanting to keep you “on call” in case they get “swamped” is not. They need to let you do your job. I was worried about this exact same thing when I transferred departments last year. My old department had the same reputation, especially my manager. So in the transition meeting, here’s what I did:
      – get everything in writing
      – create a detailed transition plan with objectives, who to contact, where to find documentation, etc
      – lay out timelines for complete transition
      – write down concrete descriptions of what “helping” and “transition” look like – as in, they can ask for instruction on tasks, ask where documentation is, but cannot ask you to do actual projects, etc
      – emphasize that you want to do your new job to the best of your ability and you’ll need to focus on that

      And be firm!!! At one point, when my old department was reorganizing, I basically had two bosses. It sucked. Remember that your job during the transition period is to facilitate and train – don’t take big projects, don’t get roped into tasks that will take weeks to complete. If they ever try to get you to do something just because they don’t feel like it or don’t remember how, keep going back to your documentation and treat it like a training request. I hope this helps and good luck with your new position!

    2. Auntie Social*

      You can’t leave your new boss in the lurch just because old boss has a problem. Obviously you can only be loaned out if new boss can’t spare you. And what constitutes a need (maternity leave?) and for how long? Given old boss’ silent treatment towards you, I’d be very honest with new boss about you hoping he’ll make sure you never get “borrowed”.

  141. Ok_Go_West*

    I was recently managing a hiring process for an open position. We had a candidate with whose personal qualities I really liked, but she performed miserably on a skills demonstration so of course I rejected her (I did not give a reason). Now she’s a top candidate for a different position at my very small (less than 10 employees) organization. This other position is actually better suited to her background and doesn’t at all relate to the skills demonstration she bombed, so I don’t have any concerns there. My concern is more about how to move forward if she gets hired; in such a small organization, we all have to work together a lot and I don’t want there to be lingering awkwardness. Do I speak with her (gently) about why she was rejected for the previous position? I don’t know if it will be better to “clear there air” on that subject or just let it lie.

    1. Undine*

      “Oh, I’m so glad to see you! I’m really glad you found a job with us that is the right fit for you.”

    2. LQ*

      Welcome her, tell her you’re glad she found a position that’s a good fit for her, be happy for her. Don’t tell her why she was rejected, just tell her that you’re glad she’s there (unless you’re not, but it sounds like you are).

      1. fposte*

        Yes. And take the initiative to do so rather than waiting for her, since you have more power than she does. Plus then it’s done and dusted and you can stop worrying about it.

  142. EnergyNerd*

    I posted for the first time last week and appreciated the insight I got on working for a utility and as a contractor. If anyone else has any input on either of those situations I’d still appreciate it, since my career in the energy sector has been outside of the utility space to this point, and I’ve only been in a contract position one other time.

    That said, I’m somewhat frustrated because my start date has been delayed due to some holdup in the background check process (I don’t know why this was done after I was offered and accepted the job). The HR people tell me it’s nothing to be concerned about and I’ll start as soon as it’s done (it’s a 3rd party company that’s responsible for it). If anyone else has experienced a delayed start (particularly for similar reasons), I’d be nice to know that this isn’t as unusual as I think it is. To be fair, they initially planned to start me the second week of November until I offered to start this week, which they wanted to do.

    I finally enrolled in benefits today, and I discovered that I can’t enroll in the 401K program until I’ve worked there for 6 months for some reason. Apparently this is not an uncommon policy, but I’d be curious to hear from any HR people about the rationale behind it. There’s no company match so I wouldn’t think it’s a cost concern (maybe a retention strategy, since it’s a contract position – if so, that’s kind of backwards to me).

    1. Auntie Social*

      It actually costs money to set you up in a 401k, there are management fees, etc. That’s it’s–mostly just cost, and a bit of a hassle with a lot of paperwork.

    2. Champagne_Dreams*

      It’s the law in many jurisdictions that an employer cannot run a background check until AFTER an offer has been made and accepted. As far as it being delayed, criminal background checks are usually run on a county by county basis. Most counties will transmit their information electronically, almost immediately. But some counties are clerk-assisted, which requires the vendor to send a human being to the court house in person to literally sign out the records during the (usually limited) hours in which that office is open to the public for such things. Clerk-assisted counties always add at least 2 weeks to the typical timeline and it’s just a crap shoot depending on where you’ve lived.

  143. Woman in tech*

    I posted this to the thread about age discrimination, but probably too late for many people to see it, so I decided to post it again here in case it can be of help to others.

    TL;DR: My advice for anyone worried about age discrimination is to forget about age and focus on developing and showcasing the relevant skills. Companies want people who can do the job well in today’s environment. In my line of work, for example, I guarantee a person in their 20s with a resume showing she’s great with FORTRAN and Windows XP will definitely lose the job to someone in her 60s who knows newer technology like Scala and AWS.

    ——

    I’m 54, a woman in tech who just went through a 8-month job search, and age discrimination had NOTHING to do with how long it took me to get a new job (I just accepted an offer with a mid-six-figure salary, and start in 2 weeks, working mostly with guys in their 20s and 30s!).

    When people here in AAM suspect age discrimination, I always feel it’s not a productive way of looking at the problem. Not saying it can’t happen, but I suspect it happens way less frequently than people think.

    Here’s why I’m skeptic when people claim age discrimination:

    – I never had difficulty getting offers for 6-figure jobs in my original line of work in tech – not in my 30s, 40s, or now, 50s.

    
– Twice in my career I wanted to change my role (think front-end developer to back-end developer to data engineer), and THESE where the times when my job search took much longer. Once in my early 40s, once in my early 50s, each time it took me 8 months to a year to make the transition. I don’t think my age had anything to do with it and I’d have experienced the same if I had tried the shift in my 30s.

    
– Because my line of work makes it easy to have an online portfolio, my approach was to demonstrate to companies I was skilled at the work I was seeking, even if I didn’t have a lot of experience in it yet. Each time it took me a while to build a new portfolio with work samples, but once I had a link to add to my resume, I could SHOW rather than TELL companies I was able to do the job, and that started getting me tons of interviews. This time, I was lucky that the first company to complete the interview process was my first choice (5 mins from home, nice environment, etc.), so I stopped interviewing once I got their offer.

    
– I’m still receiving tons of contacts from recruiters for very interesting roles even after turning off the flag “I’m looking” in LinkedIn. And I have a recent photo of me there, so it’s not like these recruiters aren’t seeing how old I am.

    Yes, it can be scary to see younger generations competing and getting jobs we older folks applied for. However, I’m willing to bet that what it might look like age discrimination is, in most cases, discrimination against outdated skills.

    What older people need to succeed is to find ways to prevent recruiters and hiring managers from thinking, “this person studied XYZ 30 years ago, and doesn’t have recent experience with the latest developments in this area–can I trust he/she has the right skills for today’s environment?”, or “this person has worked for the same company for 25 years, can I trust he/she will be able to adapt to how we do things here?”, or, “we’re using technology that was invented in the last 5 years, I better get someone just out of college that has used it”. In my case I knew what the objections could be, addressed them head on, and with patient, found the right job…

    1. Drop Bear*

      I’m not suggesting that ‘older’ people jump immediately to age discrimination when they are rejected for a job, (and I too have never personally had issues in my career with it that I know of (I am in my early 60s now)), but anecdotes aren’t data. There are studies that do provide evidence of age discrimination playing a part in the rejection of candidates (I think there was a 35,000 ish resume study by a university in the US in the last couple of years (is Turlane a uni, because that rings a bell). So it does happen and it something that older workers have to deal with sometimes when they are job hunting.

      1. fposte*

        Tulane, yeah. And I definitely agree that age discrimination is a thing.

        I do think the OP of that thread may not have been current in a field that really needs currency, and that datedness is a fear about older candidates that they’re often wise to forestall. That’s why I thought being resistant to email and insisting on phone contact was a really bad move for her on the age front as well as in general–it suggests discomfort with newer communication methods and general rigidity. And that’s the stereotype that’ll get held against you so you want to take big steps around it.

    2. beanie beans*

      I’m glad things have been good for you, but it’s dangerous to assume that because you’ve never experienced it, age discrimination doesn’t happen pretty frequently in hiring.

      It’s one thing to give advice to other people regarding how to stay competitive in the job market as we get older. And I agree that if you don’t get a job, it’s worth really thinking about why you might not have gotten it and not just jump to “age discrimination” as the reason. But it’s another thing to suggest that most people claiming age discrimination just have outdated skills.

      1. w*

        Just to be very clear, I am not suggesting age discrimination doesn’t happen, only that using it as a go-to explanation when we are having trouble getting a job is 1) not helpful and 2) potentially not as big factor as one might think.

        To be sure, discrimination does happen against minorities, older people, etc. etc. It’s unfortunate, and the best we can do is act differently when we’re in a position to hire ourselves.

        And yes, obviously anecdotes do not replace actual data. Truth is, it’s very difficult to separate unsuccessful job searches caused by age discrimination vs. by obsolete skills and other reasons. Examples like mine and of several friends in their late 50s and early 60s who never have trouble finding a new job can be seen as an indicator that the problem is not as much being older or having decades of experience, but rather not being able to combine these circumstances with evidence of having up-to-date skills.

        I used to train underprivileged young adults for the job market in my native country before moving to the U.S. and they difficulty getting a job because they weren’t familiar with newer technology required even for a job as a waiter, cashier, or car repair worker. As soon as they got training, most would find a job quickly.

        I do believe people tend to focus too much in age as the explanatory factor, and too little in the perception of outdated skills. And that’s sad because we can’t solve the former, but we can definitely try to solve the latter (either finding ways to update our skills, or, if it’s just a matter of perception, making an effort to remove this wrong perception.

        1. Woman in tech*

          Whoops, for some reason my name was cut off when I was trying to post. The reply above came from me.

        2. Drop Bear*

          But the experience of you and several of your friends is still anecdotal. And while it may be hard to very difficult for a candidate to separate unsuccessful job searches caused by age discrimination vs. by obsolete skills and other reasons – because they lack information on other candidates etc – it can be separated in properly conducted research. The Tulane study – and other studies – removed the variable of differing skills, and found, for example, that older women in certain fields, were offered job interviews at a 47 percent lower rate than the younger women- this is a significant finding.
          So while you are right that older job seekers should check how up to date their skills are (as all job seekers should in fact), the argument that ‘the problem is not as much being older or having decades of experience, but rather not being able to combine these circumstances with evidence of having up-to-date skills.’, isn’t supported by the analysis of research data.

        3. Easily Amused*

          I would like to add that at my last place of employment, I was the only woman they had ever hired as a developer and am 48 where the rest were 23-35. I lasted 9 months there because I never fit in. I’m easy going and love to joke around but most of what I ever said was met with blank looks of “I have no idea how to relate to this co-worker who looks she could be a friend of my Mom”. At my current place, I’m still on the older side but not the only one pushing 50 and we all have a great time together. Getting the job is not the only part that counts.

    3. Mazzy*

      I’m going to take to bait here. At 40 I’m already feeling the “discrimination.” Fairly or unfairly, it seems most employers want a track record of moving up, up, and up. If you did not move up, they assume it was you and you were a problem, so they pass on you. Now I don’t have specific admissions by companies I’ve interviewed with to show this, but I can fairly piece this together given the questions I get answered on interviews and by comparing the job hunts of people in my circle who’ve had upwards careers and those who appeared to have been stagnant. I’ve seen inflated job titles and working somewhere that “forces” promotions and “progress” get ahead even when they aren’t as good at the actual work.

      I’ve also repeatedly been asking in not so blunt way if I’m OK with having a younger manager. That is a fear many employers have. So it might be great if you’re a $200K executive to job hunt 40+, but I’ve known people who are only 35 feel aged out of $50K-$80K level jobs as if they should gave outgrown them by now.

      1. Theory of Eeveelution*

        What you’re describing in your first paragraph isn’t age discrimination. It’s looking at your resume and seeing either a lack of ambition or lackluster work that resulted in being passed over for promotions, and making inferences about your work because of that. It’s paired with how long you’ve been in an industry or employer. If I see that you’ve been in publishing for 10 years, but have had the “Assistant Editor” title that whole time, I’m going to make assumptions about that. I mean, you say so yourself: “If you did not move up, they assume it was you and you were a problem, so they pass on you.”

        …Yeah? I’m not sure that has anything to do with age.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You can be skeptical if you want, we can hold any opinion we want. While it seems to have served you well for your own setting, don’t allow it to taint your view of other people. They are not you, with your skill set, your set of connections, your location, your experiences and yes, even your luck.

      My friend, at age 58, needed a new job. He turned down an almost $1M position(over a period of a few years) because he did not like the location AT ALL. He just couldn’t handle the thought of making THAT commute every day. And moving for the job was off the table entirely. He landed a new 6 digit job in 41 days. So yes, it can be done. (Also in tech.) But not everyone has that ability or has that access.

      Definitely mindset is an asset, no doubt about it. But we joke about parents saying “gumption” because there is more to getting a good job than just mindset/gumption. We live in an era where being skeptical about everything is the norm. I think we should only be skeptical when it will serve us well and we should be careful about applying those skeptical rules to others as it can tear down rather than build up.

  144. Oswin Oswald*

    Hello, lovely commenters.

    I’m the writer of question 3 at this link: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/08/should-i-tell-my-boss-ive-had-a-crush-on-him-i-got-in-trouble-for-a-private-conversation-and-more.html

    I’m sorry to send a very sad update (which comes with a trigger warning for child loss).

    ***

    A few months after returning to work, I was thrilled to find out I was pregnant again. Unfortunately, our baby was born prematurely when I was just over six months pregnant, and she died soon after she was born. It’s been (and continues to be) incredibly hard, but my husband and I are supporting each other through it, with the help of our family and friends (and a very good therapist).

    My employer has been incredibly kind and supportive, and I’m now back at work part-time, which I appreciate as it’s given me something to focus on.

    I’ve just found out that two of my colleagues are pregnant, and while I’m genuinely happy for them, it’s very painful for me. I imagine I’m going to find the next few months very difficult, and am looking for coping strategies, as we do have to work closely on some projects.

    I’m aware I may be asking for the impossible, but does anyone have any advice on how to get through this without having to put a big happy face on, while being supportive of my colleagues during what is a joyful time for them?

    1. Drop Bear*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. I have no advice other than to perhaps touch base with a support group – I’m sure the members there will be able to give you advice as well as support.

    2. H.C.*

      It depends on how your workplace & work culture treats a worker’s pregnancy. Do they throw showers? Pool money for gifts? Circulate a card for everyone to write notes & sign? Have endless casual conversations about the babies? For any of the above, I think you’re free to give yourself a pass to opt-out of most of these activities (if you are participating in the card signing, maybe request signing the card first so you don’t have to see all the other messages the colleagues before you have written.)

      Your boss sounds understanding of your difficult situation – if you want, I think you can share with them why you’re opting out of these activities and possible accommodations if needed (e.g. headphones or a more private workspace if there are constant baby conversations happening around your work area.)

    4. Rey*

      I am so sorry for your loss. Since your coworkers are aware of your recent loss, they probably feel equally delicate about being pregnant. I think ambivalence is the most I would expect from you, definitely not a happy face. As long as you don’t ever have angry outbursts at pregnant coworkers, I think that’s the only bar or standard that should be set. You can excuse yourself from pregnancy-related functions or conversations, and should do so as much as you want because *real and valid and important feelings*. If you have a trusted friend at work, you could ask them to help you get out of these conversations or situations too.

      1. Gaia*

        I want to add on here. I think ambivalence is where you should aim to be.

        But also? I hope you already know this but I’m going to say it for anyone who may need to read this:

        You’ve gone through something terrible. You’re still going through it. Your grief is real. You may feel sad, hell you may even feel angry when you think of your co-workers’ pregnancies. I want you to know that being sad or being angry is not a reflection on you or whether or not you are genuinely happy for them. It is a reflection on your grief. You do not have to slap on a happy face. No one with a soul would expect you to do so. If one comes naturally sometimes, great! If not, do not punish yourself or try to force it. Feel free to excuse yourself from events or conversations that are too hard.

        Take care of yourself. I am so sorry to read this update.

    5. Geillis D*

      I’m so so sorry. What you have been going through is soul-crushing.

      It’s going to burn, no matter what. The only antidote I can think of is taking care of you, as much and as best as you can. Plenty of self-care, time with family and friends, therapy, walks, crafts, workouts… whatever helps you feel more like yourself.
      One other thing – do you know for certain that your co-workers know what you’ve been through? Not the details necessarily, just the gist of things, so they know in advance to tread carefully rather than be mortified when they put their foot in their mouth with a cheery and totally ignorant comment. If someone can loop them in and save you the emotional labour of reassuring them that it’s ok, you’re fine, there was no way of them to know etc. etc. it would make your life a tad easier.

      Jedi hugs to you.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Not the same concern, but what I have done in the past is put the word out with one person and ask them to pass it along. I said it this way,”I do care very much about other people’s X, but because of Y in my life, I really just have to step back from talk about X for a while. Again, when you tell people make sure they understand that I really do care about their Xs.”

    7. President Porpoise*

      I have no actual advice, but as a pregnant lady I would not at all resent turning down my baby excitement to be more considerate of a coworker who has suffered the loss of a child – even if I didn’t know them well or particularly like them. Maybe mention it to your boss or another coworker to spread around, to ensure you’re not required (or even invited, if you want) to go to baby showers or other celebratory events of that nature.

      I am so, so sorry for your loss, and I can’t even imagine how hard and painful this must be for you. I wish you well.

  145. GettingBy*

    Does anyone have any advice on working with a highly strung coworker?
    Linda on my team is great at what she does, on the ball and gets the job done. But she gets too emotionally involved with in each project we work on together (although in our industry there could be terrible consequences on people’s lives if we mess up) and each time something goes wrong or something needs to be changed at short notice her she dashes around, gets details mixed up and is generally quite chaotic when myself and the team need to be calm, collected and methodical.
    I’ve noticed some of my other colleagues are becoming quite resentful of her emotional outbursts. There is no crying but she is forceful, isn’t afraid to express how frustrated she is and can become authoritarian. Personally, I do think her being a woman has something to do with the resentment, but I am a woman myself and it’s becoming exhausting.
    I’ve talked to her about it, but it’s delicate subject and I don’t want to accidentally damage our good working relationship by coming across the wrong way. We are both in our mid twenties and we have roughly the same amount of working experience of 3 years.

    1. WellRed*

      she dashes around, gets details mixed up and is generally quite chaotic

      male or female, this is exhausting to put up with. I’d focus less on the emotionality of it, more on the actual problems that causes.

    2. Auntie Social*

      When you’re calm you don’t make mistakes, but when you dash around, you make them. A lot of them, which takes even more time to fix. So I need you to take a deep breath at the next last-minute craziness, and stay focused with no rushing.

    3. Rey*

      This sounds like something that could have a major impact on your team. Crucial Conversations has some pointers about giving feedback, that I think could be really helpful here. STATE is the acronym they use; STA are the steps and TE is how you do it. Share your facts (concrete things you could see and hear). Tell your story (the story you told yourself based on the facts you saw and heard). Ask for her story (What’s your perspective? How do you see it?). Talk tentatively (It seems to me that…In my opinion…). Encourage testing (so they will share their viewpoint).

      So I think it could be something like, When we have something go wrong or something needs to be changed at short notice, I notice that you dash around and get details mixed up. It seems to me that you are really chaotic because of the importance of these deadlines and the potential consequences. In my opinion, dashing around and getting details mixed up can make the team chaotic when we need to be calm and collected. What’s your perspective on this? How do you see it?

      In her own head, she probably wants to help the team, and she probably does not realize the extent of her behavior and the negative impact it has on the team. The conversation could end with proposing that she consider what she could do to contribute to a calm and methodical approach during the next project. And then, if you notice her getting into a frenzy, point out the issue. “This is what we talked about. Let’s calm down for one minute to make sure we’re on the right path.” Also, per Captain Awkward, I would avoid invoking the group in terms of “we all talked about this and the team feels that” as it can cause hurt and angry feelings (“you all talked about me behind my back). I would use “I” when sharing your facts and telling your story.

  146. SheWoulf*

    What are your thoughts on letting an employee go who was absent but has a doctors note?

    Background: Employee has been with me for 5 months. Employee accrues sick time, and has accrued 1 day so far. Outside of using this day, they have been absent a further 6 times (7 total absences), and tardy more times than I can count. Company official attendance policy states 1 instance of absence without sick time = written warning. 2 instances of absence without sick time = final written warning. 3 instances = termination. I’ve let this employee get to 6 (written up after first 2, then second 2). Employee was clearly told in meeting that any further absences could result in termination. The final straw happened earlier this week, but employee brought in doctors note for day she was out.

    Just looking for insight from others!

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I understand that you were legitimately sick and saw a doctor. Unfortunately, this is not a situation of no more unexcused absences. It is any more absences at all, given the number of times that you have already been absent. If it were not for the fact that you are regularly late to work, I could try to go to bat for you but with being late I can’t make the case for it.”

      However – wtaf is wrong with your company? After 5 months she can only accrue one day and absence without sick days is a write-up and then firing? These people have never heard of an illness that keeps you out of work for 3-4 days at a time? Or being the parent of a kid who brings home a new cold every 2-3 weeks like clockwork?

    2. It’s me*

      Just because she has a doctors note for one day doesn’t excuse regular tardiness or the additonal 6 days especially with only 5 months on the job. I’d say termination is appropriate

    3. ACDC*

      Seeing as that you have already given the employee a lot of leeway outside of company policy, I wouldn’t be so inclined to give her another pass. 7 days out in 5 months is RIDICULOUS!

      1. Auntie Social*

        Yeah, she’s saying that you should treat her differently than all the other employees, who are on time and don’t have multiple absences.

    4. Drop Bear*

      So if you get sick and haven’t accrued sufficient leave to cover the period you are ill, you can be terminated for taking time off?
      If I’m reading it wrong and it is time without a sick note that is relevant then I’m not sure I’d want to be the person who fired someone when a doctor has certified they were sick, particularly when I hadn’t properly applied the policy in the past – I’d be a tad concerned how my other employees would view this.

    5. WellRed*

      If you want to let her go due to excessive absence, OK. Especially because, with the additional tardiness, it sounds more like a performance issue. But, giving people warnings for being absent without using sick time, when they have no sick time to use because your company’s policy is reading as ridiculously stingy, seems unfair. Also, “write ups.” Just, ugh.

    6. Psyche*

      I think your company’s policy sucks. Do you really want people who are sick/contagious to come in because they have no sick days? Accruing 1 day in 5 months is pretty bad. The issues with tardiness are different. If the employee is unreliable then you have to let them go, but firing them for getting sick seems pretty awful. I would wait until they are tardy again and fire them for that instead.

      1. Rainy*

        Yeah, I read this and thought, you are providing sick time but it accrues at a rate of 1.5 HOURS per MONTH? That’s not a sick leave policy, that’s an insult.

    7. SheWoulf*

      I should have been more specific – it’s “instances of absence.” So, if the employee were to be absent for 3 consecutive days, that’s one absence. One of the instances of absence she has was actually 3 days (and one of those days was a no call no show!) so in reality she’s actually taken 10 days off total (and had one sick day). She accrues another sick day at the end of this week.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      If the absences have you wondering what to think/do then skip that part and go to the tardiness. I hope you have been tracking that. Repeated tardiness can stand on its own for firing purposes.
      I had to fire a person once for tardiness. On that particular day they were a few minutes late. The company did enforce punctuality and I would have been warned-warned-fired if I was repeatedly late. So my reason for firing was not contrived. What pushed us over the edge was that this person’s cohorts were SCARED of this person. We decided to handle the tardiness aspect of the problem. They had been warned more than enough times. That day they were a few minutes late and that was their last day.

    9. ..Kat..*

      Does employee do good work? If not, I would concentrate on that and on the frequently being late. Sometimes, a new employee just has bad luck and gets sick at a new job.

    10. valentine*

      It sounds like you’re determined not to follow your own policy, but fire her. Don’t let her create a loophole.

  147. Stranger than fiction*

    So, yesterday I saw a sign in a window that someone who once sexually harrassed me at work is running for city council.
    Should I say something to the business owner about taking it down? I don’t want it to turn into a whole thing.

    1. Alfonzo Mango*

      I think if you don’t know the business owner, it will definitely be a “whole thing”. They’re going to be caught off guard.

    2. Xarcady*

      What’s your goal here? To get that one sign taken down? To let the business owner know about a candidate they support? To have the candidate withdraw from the election?

      You can mention this to the business owner, who will either believe you or not believe you. They may or may not remove the sign.

      If the harassment was investigated and proven, you could take this to the media, if you think you can deal with the attention that would follow.

      You could check to see if the city has any means of vetting candidates before or after they are elected–an ethics committee or something like that, and inform them of the issue.

        1. President Porpoise*

          Hell, even if it’s not proven, you still might want to take it to the media. Not sure anything can be done about it, but as a voter it’d be nice to have that info.

    3. Jack Be Nimble*

      I’m sorry, seeing someone who harassed you promoted as a candidate must feel awful. I don’t have any wisdom to offer, just a lot of warm feelings and solidarity.

  148. CleverGirl*

    I want to get my coworkers gifts for Christmas but I can’t think of what to get them. Anyone have any good ideas? Everyone already has too many coffee mugs!

      1. Ok_Go_West*

        If they celebrate Christmas, then nice Christmas tree ornaments are cute, small, and easy. If you’re not sure if they celebrate, consumables are pretty safe. Tiny plants can also be cute and harmless gifts.

        1. Anon right now*

          I’m always a fan of the tiny plant. It gives your co-workers an easy out too: People who aren’t plant people can say they took it home, or ask someone else to keep it because they don’t get enough light or aren’t in the office regularly enough to water it…

    2. Kathenus*

      I’ve done the selection of hot beverages before for the area/team/office – hot chocolate packets, hot cider packets, selection of teas, etc. And depending on whether or not on demand hot water is available, I’ve also included an electric kettle for the group.

    3. Jaid_Diah*

      A bayberry wax candle? Those are supposed to be burnt on Christmas or New Years Eve for good luck.

      My dad got me a USB plug in vacuum for the keyboard. I think he got it off of Amazon for five dollars.

      Amazon also has a set of five potted succulents for 15 bucks…

    4. Aphrodite*

      I am buying those tiny gift bags at the thrift store as I see them because I plan to fill them with an orange / tangerine / tangelo plus one Meyer lemon, a small handful of pistachios and three of those gold-foil wrapped chocolates. I grow the fruit so that’s free, the bags are about 50 cents each, and I will buy a couple of bags of nuts and chocolates to divide so my cost will be minimal.

  149. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    My company’s benefits were announced for 2019 and they’ve decided to stop offering health insurance to domestic partners. My partner is covered under my insurance (she’s currently unemployed and job hunting for our planned cross-country move) and will lose coverage. I’m furious. I know there’s nothing I can do (other than express my extreme disappointment in a stern email to HR–done.) but is this a new thing? I’m wondering if it’s common to drop domestic partner coverage now that same sex couples can get married?

    Either way, it really sucks to have to figure out how to afford insurance on the private market or get a quickie marriage or a new job within 3 months.

    1. WellRed*

      It could be that, or it could be that premiums are increasing, double digits, in lots of healthcare premiums and that was, to HR, the simplest way to cut coverage? Definitely express your disappointment.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Ugh. Yeah. Well I work for a health insurance company so this kind of makes it worse. Also, we already went to really crappy coverage high deductible plans last year (for more than we were paying for our average PPOs). It just starts to feel so personal when they drop benefits altogether that puts my family at risk.

      2. Psyche*

        I have heard of a lot of companies cutting coverage for spouses due to increases in premiums. It sucks but premiums have not been stable lately.

    2. Well Hello*

      I’m very sorry that your partner is losing her coverage, but isn’t this the reason why the ACA exists? She can apply for her own plan on your state exchange, pay a rate that is tagged to her current income (and goes against her 2019 income taxes), and she can cancel/change when you leave the state/when she finds new employment with benefits.

      I know its a hassle, and it stinks that your work dropped benefits for domestic partners- but the ACA exists and you don’t have to get a quickie marriage (unless you want to!).

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I mean, yes, that is why the ACA exists, but (I say this as someone who fully supports the ACA and works for a healthcare company that offers plans on the exchange) the costs are really way less affordable than employer-sponsored healthcare. We have no idea what her income will be like in 2019 and she’s currently unemployed, so I actually think she’ll be applying for Medicaid rather than an ACA plan. The cheapest ACA plan at her “normal” income level would be several hundred dollars a month over what we pay from my paycheck for employer sponsored coverage and on one income as we are now there’s no way we can afford it. Luckily we currently live in a state that expanded Medicaid so she will hopefully qualify.

    3. Close Bracket*

      “I’m wondering if it’s common to drop domestic partner coverage now that same sex couples can get married?”

      That happened at my former employer. They offered domestic partner coverage to *all* couples. Then it became legal for same-sex partners to get married, and they no longer offered domestic partner benefits to *any* couples. My friend in a straight relationship had to get married for his long-term female partner to get benefits.

    4. BRR*

      I think it’s pretty common now that same-sex marriage is legal. My last employer at least gave a fair amount of time before the change would take affect so as not to force couples to elope.

  150. Goodbye Toby*

    I’m trying to figure out how to deal with a departing employee. She’s been with us about a year, I’ve been her main trainer, and her performance has been … not good. She is late and distracted, repeatedly makes the same mistakes, can’t keep up with her work, and bursts into tears and blames everyone else at the slightest criticism. They gave her some time to find a new job, which she did. I feel bad for her because our workplace is political and unfriendly, but a lot of her issues were of her own making. Her new job is even more responsibility and less oversight, and since this was her first real job I’d like to give her some professional advice about best practices and issues she could work on. Should I just stay out of it and rejoice that she’s out of my hair? I’m afraid if I say anything she will melt down and not understand that I really am trying to help her. Any suggestions on language?

    1. Drop Bear*

      Frankly I’d say nothing . I assume she was given feedback during her time with you; if she didn’t take it in then, I don’t think she’ll take it in now.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. And odd things happen. She may flourish. She may correct some of the things she messed up on. Maybe she will “click” with other personalities at the new place and be a changed person. I have seen people fall on their face in one place and go on to flourish in the next place. It happens. I attribute it to differences in people and differences in work places. There’s lots of variables there, so that is a pretty broad conclusion.

    2. Psyche*

      Stay out of it. Unless she asks you for feedback or advice she will likely feel attacked. She is not your problem anymore.

  151. PZ*

    Some advice needed regarding the interview process:

    I was interviewing a candidate today, for a junior – but with development potential – position, who decided to preface her reply, to my very innocuous question about some internship she had completed, with the words ‘Well, it was during the time that I was discovering my sexuality…”

    What? My jaw almost hit the floor. I’ve interviewed dozens, maybe hundreds of people during my career, but nobody decided to randomly share their sexual experiences with me. It didn’t leave me with the best impression on her professional attitude; I ended up hearing plenty about her discoveries, she also interrupted me constantly, and would not stop talking, but after that trainwreck of an interview ended, I started thinking about it more. I wonder if the reason for that completely inappropriate comment came from the fact that she wanted to clearly state that she was gay (and… gauge my reaction? …make sure I’m not a bigot?) and went about it in the most bewildering way possible, because the interview questions didn’t leave her an opening to discuss anything personal. There were about a hundred more appropriate phrases to use, but never mind that.

    I’m not sure if this is something I should try to incorporate in the interview process, to offer some reassurance to anyone feeling uncomfortable or defensive in any way. I could state during interviews that we don’t discriminate in any way, and our company is diverse and progressive, but in this day and age it feels really redundant. I can try to leave an opening for a discussion of personal matters, be it sexuality, religious beliefs, family etc, but I don’t know how to go about it. I don’t want to start questioning candidates on their privates lives, it would be intrusive, frankly none of my business and could appear discriminatory. Or am I just overthinking this? Any input, on whether you think personal discussions have any place in the interview process would be appreciated.

    1. WellRed*

      Sex and one’s sexuality should never come up in an interview. Full. Stop. Frankly, neither should religion or family or politics. Don’t let the fact that she is gay cloud you to the inappropriateness of her comment.

    2. Psyche*

      I think you are overthinking it. Talking about sex during an interview (or at work at all) is inappropriate. She could have mentioned a girlfriend if she wanted to hint at her sexuality. Or she could outright ask about whether the office was LGBT friendly.

      1. Ali G*

        Yeah – I always ask at the end of the interview (as the interviewer): “do you have any more questions for me or is there anything else you want me to know about you?”
        Then the interviewee can ask things like LGBT friendly, or straight up tell me they are gay, whatever they feel they need to do to know that this place would be welcoming (we are!).
        But this person did not handle this well at all. This is not on you PZ.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Oh my goodness gracious, that’s painfully awkward as a way to go about trying to gauge a prospective employer’s LGBT-friendliness!

      I don’t think you need to change your practices as a result of this one weird interview; if you want to emphasize your company’s (genuine!) D&I credentials, you can do that proactively by mentioning some of the ways those are implemented, but you shouldn’t need to go out of your way to be terribly specific.

      I would say, though, that “in this day and age” doesn’t mean much. There’s still plenty of discrimination going around in 2018, sadly!

    4. Mazzy*

      This reminds me of college essays, where it’s the trend to talk about how hard you’ve had it and it’s a race to the bottom, so you can then write about how you overcame it. Maybe it’s a similar mentality here. It sounds better to say I had to deal with some sort of phobia or difficult life situation everyone can understand but I overcame it, rather than just I’ve generally been successful but didn’t have to deal with those things

    5. Jack Be Nimble*

      Whatever her intentions, your candidate shouldn’t have talked about sex in an interview (I say that as a gay person), but if you want to proactively reassure candidates that your workplace is welcoming to queer folks, you might be able to do so by discussing benefits!

      Can you add unmarried same-sex partners to your health insurance? What kind of benefits are available to new parents, particularly non-biological parents? Does your health insurance cover transition-related care like hormone replacement therapy or gender confirmation surgery?

      If you can work those kinds of details into a larger conversation about compensation, you’ll clue in queer candidates without asking them to out themselves to you.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I don’t think it was about her testing you/your company’s views on LGBTQ issues so much as a complete disregard for business norms.

      I suggest not changing anything to proactively address any issues other than what you normally cover in an interview, you’ll risk coming off as oddly focused on those issues. We’ve seen plenty of examples of odd interviewer statements that clearly were added to account for some outlier they dealt with in the past.

    7. LGC*

      Whaaaaaat.

      So, one thing I’ve learned is that just because you’re a minority doesn’t mean you can’t be a jerk. And honestly, that was…pretty jerk behavior on her part! She trampled all over your boundaries in multiple ways – aside from talking about her sex life to what was essentially a stranger, she also wouldn’t give you room to talk period! I applaud your concern for expressing inclusion, but I don’t think that’s really an issue in this case.

      Basically, being a good ally (or being a good member of the LGBT+ community) doesn’t mean you have to be open to discussions about others’ sex lives at all times.

      1. TechWorker*

        Okay, so I’m not on interviewees side here cos I agree that’s a super weird ‘aside’ to bring up in an interview, but I also don’t think the phrase ‘this was about the time I discovered my sexuality’ is necessarily anything to do with their ‘sex life’. I agree I can’t think of a situation in which it’s appropriate to discuss but I would see it as maybe equivalent to ‘x internship was about the same time I had a lot going on in my personal life’ vs ‘x internship was about the same time I discovered sex’….

  152. Perfumama*

    Tips for telling an employee that she needs to stop wearing perfume? I need some *super* soft wording for this. The employee is conscientious, bright, and genuinely cares about doing the right thing. Due to the products we manufacture, our company has a policy against wearing heavy perfumes. I don’t personally consider hers heavy, but others who spend time with her do, so I need to bring it up. She was “corrected” by another supervisor earlier in the week due to a misunderstanding, which embarrassed her, even though she wasn’t doing anything wrong. Also, she’s not a native English speaker, so I can’t use an overly wordy, reassuring explanation (which is my typical style). But I do NOT want to hurt her feelings or embarrass her unnecessarily. Does anyone have a script?

    1. Psyche*

      I think that you should just be matter of fact. “I am going to have to ask you to stop wearing perfume to work. While I don’t find the scent particularly heavy, the company is becoming more strict about scents due to (insert reason heavy perfume was banned).”

    2. fposte*

      I would stop hunting for super-soft wording; a good and conscientious employee shouldn’t need that, it’s not that big a deal unless it’s made into one, and you can’t tackle this with the primary goal that her feelings not be hurt. I like Psyche’s wording above–it’s clear and straightforward and not blamey. You don’t want to try to hurt her feelings or embarrass her, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense to twist yourself into knots to avoid it, either–she’ll be okay.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Exactly. Treat it likes it’s no big deal, it’s just something you need her to do. Try hard not to make her think this is tough for you or embarrassing or anything like that.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I went with: “Part of my job here is to make sure that everyone is aware of the rules and following the rules. So I tell everyone that [fill in with the perfume rule]. The reason for this is [give reason].” If you are looking for softening language, I have found that when I said, “I tell everyone the same thing…” then I am more apt to get “oh, okay. Thanks for telling me.”

      Maybe she is not wearing perfume, maybe it is fabric softener or detergent in her clothes. I am saying this so you can be aware that the conversation might go in a direction other than planned.

    4. ..Kat..*

      I think the company should either ban perfume or not. “Heavy” perfume is so subjective.

      That said, just be clear and direct. Do it privately. Do it at the end of the day. (If done at the beginning of the day, she can feel mortified that she is not compliant for the workday.)

  153. Just wondering*

    A quick “is it normal question”…. Earlier today AAM answered a question about an intern cleaning the boss’ house. What about other types of personal projects? Church signs, holiday invitations, hockey fundraising paraphernalia like posters and brochures, child custody schedules, items for their side company and so on….? Is it normal to be asked to do all of this? The owners of the company are my direct bosses. There isn’t a board or any kind of oversight.

    1. Jack Be Nimble*

      If you’re an assistant, some of that might fall into your purview, but probably not if you hold any other job title!

    2. Ok_Go_West*

      In general, not normal or appropriate. I guess some “personal assistant” positions do cross these lines, but it should be clear from the beginning whether your job involves doing work for the company or the person.

    3. schnauzerfan*

      Depends on what you were hired to do. We have a caregiver for my mother. Hired to cook and do light housework, take her to appts., help her with her craft projects. I feel that mom can ask her caregiver to do lots of different chores. But if you were hired to run the till or keep the books at their business? No they shouldn’t be asking you to help with household chores.

    4. Just wondering*

      Hmmmm. We don’t do titles, but I wouldn’t call myself a assistant. The tasks are really getting in the way of my “real work” and I am either working all the time or not getting things done. I hate leaving work at the end of the week feeling like a failure because my to-do list is a mile long and I am starting to resent the late nights and weekends. (all without pay of course)

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        Do you have any one-on-ones or check-ins with your supervisors to discuss your workload? They might be assigning those tasks to you because they think you enjoy them or have a lot of downtime. Telling them that your workload is unmanageable (with specific details, such as hours worked per week, number of tasks left undone, etc) might be enough for them to stop assigning those kinds of tasks to you!

        Good luck, regardless, doing hockey fundraisers for your boss’ kid while you’ve got a huge pile of actual work sounds like torture.

        1. Just wondering*

          Thank you Jack. It is amazing how much an outsider’s perspective can help. It is good to know I am not completely off base with how I am feeling. I have made it clear about my work load and the answer is always just “it needs to be done. figure it out”. I think ultimately, I need a new start somewhere where professional norms are respected.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        Depends on what your “real work” is. If you were hired to be, say a office administrator, that may include a lot of errand-type things to keep the office and business running… but not keep someone’s family and kids, dogs, cats and life running.
        There are people called “personal assistants” for that, or as schnauzerfan said they have “caregiver” for their mother whose job it is to do small chores mother can not in addition to probably some light medical duties like making sure she takes her medicine and such.

        I see you mention signs, posters, etc. Are you a graphic designer? Designers get hit up for that stuff all the time because we’re creative. You’ve got to nix it.

    5. Waiting At The DMV*

      I once worked a junior role at a a small, 16-person company. The CEO started bringing in a personal project – maybe a rotary thing, or a non-profit it something – but it had nothing to do with the actual company that employed me.

      Anyhow, CEO walked me through what he wanted done, and I… just didn’t do it. End of day, he asked about it on his way out, and I blandly said “Yeah, didn’t have any time to help you out with this bonus work today.” Same thing the next day.

      I basically let the stack of paperwork sit where he’d left it, ignored it completely as I did my actual job. He asked again a week later, and I said calmly “I’m not going to have the time to help you with this. If you need this type of support you should really look into a personal assistant.” CEO was kind of dumbstruck and said “oh, I thought you’d enjoy this – seemed like it would be right up your alley.” I said “oh, it’s not a matter of interest – I’m just fully kept busy with the company work you hired me to do. I’m really not ever going to have time for these bonus, personal projects. But again, I think a personal assistant could be a great support for you if you need this sort of help.”

      I definitely got some side eye, but… he never asked again and it did not damage our relationship. Key is to be calm, firm, and matter of fact.

  154. TenKeyTerror*

    Long term lurker here. First time commenting. I’m in a pickle:
    I am in a specialized accounting field that can be difficult to leave. I REALLY want to make the transition out. I’ve received an offer with great upward mobility and pay however I HATE the culture at the company. Is it worth accepting and biding my time or are there other fish in the sea? This is vague, but if you want more details that aren’t too incriminating to help make my decision for me :) ask away….

    1. LQ*

      I guess I’d ask how you hate it. Is it not fun enough, or too fun? Or is it discriminatory, aggressive, and bullying? I’d take something that had lots of required fun (which I’d despise) and aim for 18 -24 months and use it as a launching pad with a promise to myself that it would be ok to return to self after. But if I was going to be in a place that was groping and 3 am screaming calls I would nope out and stay in the impossible to leave place.

      1. TenKeyTerror*

        Its VERY conservative. Hard arrival and quit times and it makes the offices from the ORIGINAL wall street movie look 2000s contemporary.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      My vote would be no, if the culture is bad or just not your style, then that is a deal breaker. It’s a good way to ruin your health.
      Think of it this way: You are working for this company. You are having a Very Bad Day, everything is going wrong. The only real reason you are there for the money and the promotions. But, you haven’t heard talk of a promotion, your money gets spent at the doctor’s and you still don’t like the culture. Is this something you’d be able to work through or would you be inching toward the door?

      Some people can do it. I can’t. There has to be something about the job that helps me to stay at it.

    3. Natalie*

      I think I would evaluate some combination of why I would hate the culture + how long I would have to stay + what are my options to mitigate the downsides? So, for example, if it was a workaholic place with long hours, but I was getting paid enough to outsource some other parts of my life and I knew I could leave within 5 years, that might be worth it to me. Whereas if it was a hypercompetitive place where I couldn’t trust my coworkers, I wouldn’t be able to tolerate that at all, and there’s not really anything I could do to soften the affect.

    4. BetsCounts*

      is the offer at a big 4 firm/national/regional/local? For the big 4 & national firms, there is a **ton** of variety in the culture between offices- like the GT office in Boca Raton might have little to nothing in common with the GT office in Pensacola other than CPE and HR policies. Even in the regional firms there can be a fairly large difference, even within the same geographic region. So be certain that the culture issue is firm wide, and not office specific. LQ, NSNR and Natalie all make excellent points as well.

  155. That's Not My Job*

    This week I was asked out of the blue if I’d like to become a dog adoption counselor at the charity I volunteer with. Working with this charity is what has given me a sense of fulfillment lately that I haven’t been getting from my job. I asked some questions about what would be required and asked for some resources to be forwarded to me but I’m leaning hard towards yes. The issue is that the people who I need these answers from work full time and sometimes forget to answer their messages so now I’m just… Waiting. Not a strength of mine.

  156. VV007*

    I have a situation at work that I could use some advice/feedback on:

    For a little bit of background: I work for an educational institution. My time is split evenly between two departments that are considered “external” departments. I was hired as a Program Coordinator for department A and there is just the Director and myself. After about 3 months the head of department B asked my boss if they could have me 50% of the time. I have never been given a formal title in department B and generally just help out with whatever tasks they need assistance with. In the 3 years that I have been working with department B, every year one of my co-works goes on an extended leave for health issues. The first year they were unexpectedly out for 3 months, the second year they were out for about 2.5 months due to a surgery, and I just found out that they will be out again this year for 3 months. When they are out, I am expected to cover their work. I like being a team-player and don’t mind helping out when something comes up. However, I find myself resenting this co-worker as I am consistently being asked to do their job for 3 months out of the year at a much lower rate of pay. Besides, I still have to do the job I was hired for in department A on top of working almost full time with department B for that time period! My question is would it be completely unprofessional to ask the head of the department if I could be compensated in some way for the extra work I will need to do during those 3 months? I feel like if I were either making more money or enjoying more perks during that time period than maybe I wouldn’t be as stressed out about the extra work. The worst they can say is no, right?

    1. Anna Held*

      You absolutely should be getting extra pay! Write out what you do, time spent, value added to institution, etc. That way you have your talking points backed with facts.

      And read Allison’s posts on asking for a raise!

    2. ..Kat..*

      You should be getting better pay. And you shouldn’t have to do your job plus this person’s job.

  157. NerdyGirl*

    I’m in need of some advice. This may get a little long, so I apologize in advance.

    I’m a salaried programmer at my company, and for the most part I like my job and it has some great benefits. I’ve had some issues as of late, though, that makes me feel like I’m being singled out and unfairly treated. I’m part of a large group of programmers, but my team consists of just three people, including myself.

    The issue began after my first year with the company. My company does offer current staff with internal job positions at times, and encourages employees to try for other positions as they open up. A position popped up at my company that I just couldn’t ignore, because it fit with all of my degree credentials. I debated it, really hard, and finally had a talk with my team leader. I had a sincere conversation, asked if it really would be ok if I tried applying to this position, and if I didn’t get it if it would affect our standing. He assured me it wouldn’t, even gave me some advice, and seemed pretty good about it. So I applied, had an interview, and they chose someone else.

    After this, my team leader started sending passive aggressive emails to our team about coming in ‘late’. Mind, we set our own schedules for the week, so long as we work 40 hours our VP doesn’t care. Some days I would come in at 8am, others 8:30am, but I would still be in the office as required. One week he was on vacation, and I got sick. I worked half the day and went home ill, and took personal time off. The next day I worked from home. When he came back from vacation, he sent an email tagging in his boss that there is just too much work to do and until further notice, I am not allowed to work from home. Meanwhile, he and my other coworker continue to work from home as usual.

    Time goes by, and today I feel ill. So I stay home, and see if I could work from home. I log on and tell my team leader I’m sorry, I have a touch of the flu (going round in my house), and that I was going to work at home. My team leader tells me unfortunately I need to fill out for a sick day— the irony is he is telling me this while he is working from home after being out with the flu since Wednesday.

    I feel like I’m being singled out and punished for applying to another position and also for being a salaried employee (because I’ve had that thrown in my face before in a passive aggressive way by my team leader). My coworker also knows I’m salaried, because it has been mentioned in ‘passing’. I’ve even overheard them talking and joking about how they really don’t get much work done at home because their kids bother them all the time. I have teenagers, so I don’t have that problem at home. If anything, I feel more productive because it’s quiet and I can relax.

    We all get a set amount of personal, sick, and vacation time. Yet they don’t have to use up their sick or personal time like I do, they can just work from home if they have a cold. They are both always taking off to do errands, having long lunches, going to appointments, with a seemingly inexhaustible pool of time. Meanwhile, I’m out of time way before the end of our fiscal year because I’ve had health issues and some family troubles.
    I don’t want to create a problem, but I don’t know how to address this. Am I wrong in feeling like I’m being treated unfairly? And if so, what do I do? Who do I even talk to, to address this without it all creating even more problems and work place hostility? I really don’t want to add more stress to the situation, and if I’m afraid it will just get worse if I say anything.

    1. fposte*

      I’d start with the team lead. I wouldn’t go under the assumption that this was because you applied for another position–there could be all kinds of things going on, and what matters more anyway is how to solve it. “You’ve tightened up your scrutiny on my work in way that’s not happening with other employees–can we talk about what concerns you may have about my work and how I can make sure I’m addressing them? I’d also really like to clarify the work at home policy. Would that be possible?” You’re focusing not on unfairness, which is way too abstract to fix, but on your work and the policies that govern it.

      I’m also a little unclear on why being exempt is something to have thrown in your face, and I’m wondering if there might be something amiss with your classification if the rest of your team is non-exempt.

      1. atexit8*

        Software programming is normally a salaried position.
        I am surprise that NerdyGirl would be salaried but the rest of her team not.
        Actually to be perfectly honest, I much prefer hourly.
        I don’t see much advantage to be salaried.
        And I have been salaried all my life except when working contract jobs.

  158. Tailored*

    Our company held its annual long term service/retiree dinner last week.
    After the awards are given out, they do a somewhat formal group photo of that year’s honorees and the chair of the board is there as well as all the top level executives.
    Well in the photo this year, it shows one of the honorees (who has been a problem employee for years, that no one has dealt with ) with her arm wrapped around the CEO’s neck and her hand on his chest, the other arm draped on the shoulder of the person beside her. Maybe too much wine, but its a work function, get a grip!
    Everyone who has seen it, cringes at the image, since everyone else in the group is standing as you would expect, and it makes me wonder if anyone will say anything to her.
    I think it is inappropriate in general, and more specifically I think it makes it looks like we have a double standard of acceptable behaviour based on gender.

  159. Serious Pillowfight*

    I have a full-time office job but am looking for side work to supplement my income, as I currently pay almost $1,000 a month toward my debt (medical, car, student loans, and credit cards). I’m having to resort to using a credit card to buy food and other necessities (and, OK, some non-necessities) as almost everything else goes toward bills. Obviously this is not sustainable. Without the debt, my job would pay plenty. Not great, but enough to survive and have plenty of extra left over.

    I have an MFA in writing and qualify for adjunct professor jobs, but I have no teaching experience and am a bit hesitant about it. I don’t even know where to begin in terms of creating an academic CV. I’ve been published many times over, but they’re newspaper and magazine articles in local publications. I could also tutor, but I’m hesitant about that, too, as I don’t like the unpredictability of the students and their parents.

    I’ve done the occasional freelance article but work is sparse and not well paid. I also feel like writers are a dime a dozen, maybe just because I’m surrounded by them. I’ve tried to network for other writing gigs, but nothing ever comes of anything. People will say, “Yeah, let’s talk,” and then I never hear anything more about it. I’ve looked at Upwork and the like, but many of those postings offer, like, $10 for a 1,000-word article, or they want you to edit their 50,000-word novel for $50. Give me a break!

    I guess I need to stop discounting every option available to me and just try for some. I’m an anxious person, diagnosed with GAD, so that might be what’s behind my, “Yeah, but…” reaction to all possible side jobs.

    I finally applied to a seasonal retail position at Target, figuring it’d be an easy get and I could finally just knock back some of my debt, but that was two or three weeks ago and I haven’t heard from them. They have signs everywhere that they’re hiring, so maybe there’s an influx of applicants. I’m looking at other possible retail jobs as I have lots of stores and a mall nearby.

    I guess I’m just frustrated that extra work isn’t coming easily enough to me. I need advice and/or a reality check and/or commiseration. The sad thing, is, there IS freelance writing work available AT MY JOB but my lovely department head decided a couple years back that if you already work there full-time, any extra writing you do is “part of your job.” Well, no, actually, it’s not, but by all means keep taking advantage of your employees and nickel-and-diming underlings while you and your overabundance of highly paid managers do…I don’t know what…all day.

    Thanks if you’ve read this far.

    1. fposte*

      Sorry; it’s tough to be stuck between working hard and not earning enough. But I totally agree with your self-assessment that “I guess I need to stop discounting every option available to me and just try for some.”

      For adjunct work, in my experience an MFA and no teaching portfolio would rule out most four-year schools, but some community colleges or extension programs might be possibilities. Check to see who offers writing courses in your neck of the woods, check out what curriculum they teach, and find out how they hire. It’s not that tough to put together an academic CV–look at examples online, put it together, and send it in. What about tutoring adults rather than kids? Is there work at any writing centers associated with colleges or with nonprofits?

      I don’t do freelance work but I have friends that do, and what they do that I’m not hearing from you is pitch. They’re not really lances for hire who get called in; they’re vendors of their own work, and they have work ideas ready all the time. Sometimes media/culture reviews, ranging from books to restaurants, can offer a way to build up a portfolio–smaller local papers/blogs don’t have much (sometimes any) money but they’re sometimes opportunity there.

      I think the retail application is a smart move and it’s good that you’re looking to keep going on that if need be; just consider applying some of that practicality to taking steps on a more writing-related side career as well. Good luck!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Have you tried Contently? My company uses it, but there is a freelance part where you can pickup writing. I don’t know how it pays, but they do hire freelancers from it for blog and technical articles and I’m sure it’s better pay than Upwork. I feel like you’ve got the right skills and idea here, but haven’t connected to the right platform for decently paid freelance writing (by that I mean $200-$500 or more for larger projects like web sites).
      Other than that, unfortunately a lot of this is word of mouth. But you could try reaching out to marketing agencies, PR firms and advertising agencies in your area. Most of those places bring in a lot of freelance writers.

    3. Close Bracket*

      Apply to Scribbr! They look for editors who can work on academic articles. The pay is a little over 1 cent/word. With an MFA, you should be able to work at this level of editing. There is a screening test to check your skills as part of the application process, and that’s about it on the hiring end.

    4. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Other part time options might pay more than retail and be more night/weekend friendly.

      Pet sitting/ dog walking
      Babysitting
      Bartender
      Personal Organizer
      Housecleaning
      Helper for seniors

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        Thanks, I actually work evenings except for Tuesdays, when I work days. I also have Sundays and Mondays off and work Saturday night. My wacky schedule probably isn’t doing me any favors in retail-land. God forbid you aren’t available for one second on a Saturday.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Your schedule would however be helpful for a dog-walking gig — if you’re up for lunches with dogs whose people work days.

    5. Anono-me*

      Have you considered teaching community ed classes? I know the family history writing ones fill up pretty quickly in my neck of the woods. They are usually listed in the senior section and offered during the day.

      Also, as more of a long term idea. Have you considered a forming a LLC and marketing yourself as a writing trainer for STEM type companies? Some sort of one or two day basic how to write a report and an email seminar. A few people I know in engineering and IT have expressed frustration about lots of new hires having excellent technical skills, but not being able to write the report about the work they did.

      1. Anono-me*

        I’m not saying that STEM people can’t write, but that people I know in those two fields are complaining about lots new hires who have focused on STEM skills pretty exclusively.

    6. valentine*

      Debt: If the medical entities have financial aid, apply. They will take your car payment into account. Negotiate or renegotiate your monthly payment plan. Do the math and politely stick to your offer. I think it’s easier for them to accept it than to talk you into some BS minimum of $x/month. Can you renegotiate your car payment?

      Credit: Do you have balance transfer offers at 0% APR for 12 months? You’d have to not have anything else on the card you’re transferring to and you’d be adding a transfer fee to the balance, but it would give you breathing room. If your daily-life card doesn’t have rewards, get one or two that reward you for buying household stuff or gas and let you use the points to pay down the card.

      Writer/historian Mikki Kendall, @Karnythia, has written about freelancing and pitching stories.

      Tutoring: If you need structure or a barrier, there are online services that would minimize parental impact on you. I think it’s harder for a student to waste your time if you’re working online.

      Retail: look for part-time gift-wrapping. If you can work mornings, maybe medical office reception is viable. Does your local Craigslist have random gigs?

      1. Asenath*

        And if you’re uncertain about your ability to negotiate your debt payments, check out credit counselling in your area – these are the NON-PROFIT organizations, not the for-profit groups with the glitzy ads about how they’ll consolidate your loans etc etc. The type of group I’m talking about won’t charge a fee and will give you good advice about your financial situation and help you negotiate a repayment schedule you can live with.

  160. Jennifer*

    So, within the last seven days:
    My boss got a new job.
    The head boss found out how much work I do and that my so-called team does jack shit.
    The head boss immediately moved me into the public service team the next day.
    I like the people over there better but really sucked at the public service.
    And the manager over there has been notoriously difficult. I’ve gotten along with her but I know some people really really haven’t when directly supervised by her, and that is the team that has a lot of firings. So I am hoping I will continue to get along with her. We had a lovely (perfect, even) meeting yesterday so god, I hope that continues.

    I should probably be job hunting like hell at this point anyway just in case, but I am feeling less guaranteed to be fired right now at least. She said she wouldn’t put me back on the service parts right away since she knows I’ve had a rough time of it, and was very nice about it. We will see if that happens in practicality when a lot of people call in sick, of course.

    Here’s the dilemma, folks: do I assume I will continue to get along with her or should I still be living in fear that I won’t once I’m hers?

    1. Jennifer*

      Er….I’m technically not moving until after my boss leaves, but the head boss made that decision to move me VERY quickly.

    2. fposte*

      What advantage does living in fear get you?

      I think in the face of all that change it doesn’t hurt to have your resume in good shape in case you don’t like the way things shake out (you’re just talking about being fired, but remember you can leave for better things because you want to, too), but being afraid isn’t going to make bad things less likely to happen and it will make things suck more in the mean time. I realize that fear isn’t always a choice, but you’ve framed it as one, so I’d say live in measured consideration and do a little window-shopping. Sometimes when you’re on a bucking horse you feel like all you can do is hold on as hard as you can, but you can also dismount.

    3. LQ*

      I think there have been a lot of stories around here of people getting along really well with “notoriously difficult” bosses and unless I heard something really concerning (like 3 am screaming phone calls) and mostly what I’d heard was “difficult” and “hard to work with” I’d assume that those stories might be true for some, but that they wouldn’t be for you. Assume you’ll continue to get along with her.

      (But that doesn’t mean you can’t window shop for other work.)

    4. valentine*

      Where do you want to be? Your bosses are batting you around like cats with a toy. Do you want to be on either team, in a different field, or with a different employer?

  161. Jessen*

    Oh I have another new job question!

    Any suggestions for work lunches that don’t need to go in the fridge? It’s going to be a horrid commute via train for a bit, and I’m not hauling a cooler on the train. No peanuts/peanut butter please (personal preference – I’m not allergic).

    1. Rincat*

      1. Cheeses, bread, fruits and veggies that don’t need to be kept cool. Pickled veggies.
      2 Shelf-stable microwave meals (not the tastiest, but they don’t need a fridge).
      3. Ready-to-heat soups.

      I’m a fan of #1, we took stuff like that when we were camping so it was like a snack sampler whenever we needed it, and the variety of things are endless so it doesn’t get boring.

    2. DCGirl*

      If you don’t want to haul a cooler, you could just get a cold pack that goes in your lunch bag. That’s what I do.

      1. Jessen*

        I just use paper bags normally – I hate having to keep track of a big old lunch bag on top of everything else, when I used one it was basically always dirty and the cold packs were never in the freezer because it was just too much to keep track of.

        I may not have thought this through, honestly. Probably best if I just use a backpack, that way I can grab everything and head out. I’m trying to limit my items, because if I go over like 1 I’ll leave something behind.

        1. Kerr*

          Do you have a fridge at work? If so I wouldn’t worry about insulating lunch on your commute – it won’t spoil that quickly. Or try a paper bag in insulated bag, so you don’t have to clean the insulated bag?
          Pasta or quinoa salads and grain bowls tend to handle room temperature well IME.

    3. Theory of Eeveelution*

      Nothing really needs to go into the fridge, unless you work construction and your food will be sitting in the hot sun all morning. Food doesn’t spoil that fast!

      1. Anna Held*

        Yeah, I’m terrible about leaving things out, but it’s been fine. And it’s great when I’ve pulled something out of the freezer — by lunchtime it’s unfrozen!

        Homemade meat pasties would be good (in most parts of the country you can’t buy them). And you can always bring dry sandwiches and just keep the mayo at work.

    4. Fabulous*

      Canned soup – I sometimes just bring a can, bowl and spoon in my lunchbox :)
      Also, I’ve made sandwiches with bagel/cream cheese and lunch meat that stay well in tin foil with just an ice pack for hours.

    5. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I agree – normal insulated lunch bag plus ice pack will be fine for just about anything. Unless you are a lifeguard at the beach wanting to eat chicken salad, nothing is going to spoil that fast… soggy is a more likely problem.

      That said, my goto lunch as a student was hummus and tabboleh on pita with a side of fruit.

    6. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I have one of those lightly insulated lunch bags that I keep everything in, but no ice pack or anything. Even though it’s just sitting in a tool shed all day until lunch, nothing has ever spoiled or made me sick, so I think you could relax on the ice pack/fridge thing, unless you work in an unusually hot place. I usually have salad fwiw.

      For a while we didn’t have a microwave or anything so I was heating up soup in the morning and putting in a nice soup thermos and it stayed hot until lunch. If you are organised enough in the morning you might try something like that as well.

      1. Jessen*

        Generally you can assume that anything with me doesn’t have the word “organized” anywhere NEAR it.

        I’m kind of wrenching my schedule around in weird ways right now, because I’m making a fast turnaround between 2nd shift (working today too!) and show up at 9 with a 2h commute. So I’m expecting this first week to be very grab-and-go.

    7. LadyByTheLake*

      Agree with Anna Held — I used to make soups/stew/chili and freeze it in individual serving containers. Take it out of the freezer and by the time you are ready for lunch , it’s ready to microwave

  162. Recycling Group Volunteer*

    Hope this is okay here, since the situation is a volunteer group.

    I volunteer as part of a local environmental group that encourages recycling, picks up litter, sets up events for Earth Day, that kind of thing. We have one person who’s always sending e-mails about how she’s totally going to be there and totally going to help and all this, and then she never shows up and there’s radio silence as to why, until she sends another dramatic promising e-mail. She hasn’t shown up for any meeting or event in about 18 months. I’ve pretty much written No-Showie Chloe off and ignore her e-mails. However, other members of the group are obsessed with either trying to make her respond when she’s left them hanging- no good, she never returns calls or e-mails- or sympathizing with her and defending her because they feel sorry for her busy, crowded life. It takes up large portions of our monthly meetings that are already pretty long.

    Any tips for trying to promote a way of discussion that can move people past this? Failing that, any suggestions to get people to stop relying on her and acting like it’s a total surprise when she doesn’t keep a commitment? I dislike No-Showie Chloe and her “I will be there, I SWEAR!” lying e-mails, but I’m ready to shake other members of the group who keep acting as though we should try to include, rely on, or punish her.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, I hate that kind of stuff. Is there a leader of this group or is this basically a collective? If there’s a leader, I might touch base with them privately to express your concern about the substantial time suck and digression from mission happening there. If it’s more of a collective, I might just raise the issue matter-of-factly next time No-Showie Chloe (*love* that) comes up as a topic. “I feel like Chloe has become a topic of her own that gets us off track from the mission. I absolutely support people reaching out to her or anybody else privately, but could the meetings just accept her choice about attending and take back more time for the environmental efforts?”

      And if it doesn’t work, your goal is then to resist further recursion of angsting about angsting about Chloe.

      1. Recycling Group Volunteer*

        It’s a collective; everything has to be done by consensus. For a while, I was deliberately leaving Chloe’s e-mail address off the e-mails about things for which I have primary responsibility, and that worked, but only until someone started going, “GASP! I bet Chloe doesn’t know about this!”, and sending them to her. Cue dramatic promises, cue no-showing, cue utter silence.

        I like your wording, and I think I’ll use it. Even if other people don’t want to stop discussing Chloe right away, maybe this can somewhat limit the amount of time we spend doing it, and I bet at least some other people are as sick of it as I am. And I know one other person who’s prominent in the group and might want to stop the discussions; she has more reason to be angry at Chloe than I do, since she’s disabled and Chloe left her in a couple situations where she could literally do nothing for an event set-up without help, but she’s also started rolling her eyes when people start the, “Chloe needs to respond to e-mails!”/”Chloe must have a good reason!” two-step. She sent me one private e-mails saying I was wise not to rely on Chloe’s help at all. We’ll see if we can get this turned around.

        1. fposte*

          I was in a high school program that was run by consensus. It has left me with a lifelong distaste for that protocol and a touch of affection for dictatorship. Good luck and Godspeed to you.

        2. Anna Held*

          I’d try just shutting it down in meetings and emails by saying matter-of-factly, “Chloe hasn’t volunteered in 18 months. At this point we have to understand that she has other commitments and cannot be relied on for this event. Now, as to the bunting…” A lot of people may not realize it’s been that long.

          Of course, it sounds as though a few of these twitterers won’t let it go. Is anyone tracking hours or otherwise doing the actual admin work, and would have some standing to make a change? (You, I’m guessing!) Make a new rule — anyone who hasn’t volunteered in the past year is automatically taken off the rolls. They’re welcomed back, of course, but you have a year rule. You need accurate numbers for the board (or whomever). So you have to leave her off and there’s no point belaboring it.

          Maybe talk to the other person(s) who are sick of it to strategize, too. Agree to move on to the next topic together and start discussing X subject. I’ll bet a LOT of the group will be happy to move on — how many have never even met Chloe? — and you might get some support.

          If none of this seems close to workable to you, then flee for your life.

          1. valentine*

            Chloe likes the rush. If they wouldn’t drop her, I would leave. I can’t be in constant chaos/crisis. See if they’ll agree to plan as though Chloe won’t do what she said, perhaps by framing it as scheduling backup so poor Chloe isn’t overworked or overwhelmed.

  163. Ron McDon*

    Woohoo! Today I am celebrating because my employer has advertised for the new staff member we have been asking for since early September.

    I am very hopeful that we get lots of good quality applicants and will soon have another member on our team!

  164. Orange You Glad*

    So I feel like there’s been a lot of talk on AAM about the proper way for employees to call out of work/use their PTO but what about for the managers? I’m having a problem where my manager frequently plans 1-2 week long vacations but doesn’t tell his employees until the last possible minute. I know it’s none of my business when and how he uses his PTO but when he is out of the office it creates a huge additional workload for me as the next most senior person in the department. I’ve tried to set up department calendars so we can all alert each other to our schedules and avoid these unpleasant surprises but I can’t get my manager to stick with anything long term or communication when he is in or out of the office.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      This is often a hard one as the higher up they go, they don’t report to anyone. That said, they still ought to commit to put their PTO of 1 week or more on a shared calendar for visibility sake. Most managers agree this is a sensible thing to do, but you always get that one who thinks it’s beneath them (and they won’t turn on their out of office either!).

    2. animaniactoo*

      Q: Have you directly said to him that the lack of notice is creating scheduling issues for you with completing projects?

      1. animaniactoo*

        Also, in the “managing up” category – check in with him once a month or so? “Hi, just checking if you have any plans for time off coming up that I will need to work around?”

  165. Junior Dev*

    I feel so exhausted and burned out. I’m applying for other jobs internally and externally and I think once I find out whether I’ve gotten them I’m going to plan a week of vacation–either PTO if I don’t get a new job, or a week between ending the old one and starting the new one if I do. I’m sick of everything and depressed and resentful of my boss and don’t want to do anything but lie in bed.

    1. Kathenus*

      I’m sorry! Could you take one day, or a half day, now and just do something (or nothing) to get a brief recharge? And I totally agree with your plan, and it’s a good motivator to keep working on getting a new job with the potential bonus of the week off, or as a consolation to take PTO if you end up staying. But see if you can take a small amount of time sooner for yourself.

    2. Kerr*

      That’s a good plan. I’m in a similar place (not looking yet but frustrated), and plan to take a week’s vacation between jobs when I find one. The value of a mental reset is HUGE.

      Definitely take a day (or even a half day) for yourself soon if you can, though! Even leaving 2-3 hours early can feel like playing hooky.

  166. No longer a lurker*

    Long time reader, first time commenter! My question is, how do you keep pushing forward in the job search when you keep getting rejection after rejection? I graduated in 2017 from a well known liberal arts college (one of the top 3 in the U.S) with a high GPA and internships under my belt. I recognized that finding a job would not be easy and was prepared for that. What I was not prepared for was the fact that two years later I would still be without a full time position. I have rewritten my resume and cover letters countless times based on advice I receive and tips I have read here. I come from a low- income/ inner city background, so I admittedly don’t have a lot of connections. Even so, I have reached out to the few connections I do have, in addition to my school alumni network and career services. Despite my efforts, I have not received any interviews and have even been sent form rejection letters from positions that only require a high school diploma. At this point I don’t know what else I can do to make myself a competitive job candidate. Has anyone else been in a position where it feels like they’re hitting a brick wall? What did you do?

    1. Jack Be Nimble*

      I ran into a similar problem after moving cross-country shortly after graduating! Have you tried working with staffing agencies? I temped for about a year after college and it was a good way to build my network. My current role began as a 4-month temp position, and they offered me a permanent position after about a month on the job!

      1. LQ*

        Strong second on the staffing service. It’s what got me my first real post college job, they mostly had sort of reception/butts in seats kind of roles but they found me a very nice part time gig that turned into a full time turned into a stay forever role and I think it was a good money maker and good job for them to talk about how great they were. Certainly hit or miss, but I really think there’s not a downside if you’re struggling.

      2. No longer a lurker*

        Thanks for the reply! It’s good to know others have been in this situation. I have been working with a few staffing firms, but none have been particularly helpful in finding a position. It’s like they receive my information and it goes into an all consuming void haha. I’m not sure if it’s the agencies, me, or just a function of the area I live in. But I will continue to try the temping agency route!

    2. WellRed*

      Take care of yourself outside of job searching, however that looks for you (sleep/exercise/volunteering/friendships).
      The degree itself isn’t going to make you automatically qualified for HS diploma jobs. Because you are not any (is that correct? None?) getting interviews, I think you should take another look at your resume and cover letter. Have someone read them, if you haven’t. If they highlight your relevant experience, are the jobs you’re applying for in alignment with your skills? Are you aiming too high? Too low? Too narrow? Also, this is random, google yourself and see if something weird comes up (maybe someone with a similar name).

      1. No longer a lurker*

        I appreciate the reply and wholeheartedly agree that self-care if very important! I also agree that a degree doesn’t automatically make me qualified for HS diploma jobs. I should have been more specific, but a lot of the HS diploma jobs I’ve applied to are ones that require minimal experience/training. I think that is where my frustration is coming from. In terms of my cover letter and resume, I’ve had them reviewed by many other people, including a career counselor from my college. Based on the responses I’ve received, they appear to highlight my relevant experience? I think your last questions may go to the crux of my problem. I’ve been applying to mainly entry level hr and administrative positions, both of which I have experience with. But it’s possible there’s some middle ground I could be missing. Many of the entry level positions I’ve seen in those areas either require just a HS diploma, or jumps straight to 3-5 years of relevant experience. So i’m in a bit of a grey zone. I’ve never thought of googling myself, so I’ll certainly do that and see if anything funky is going on!

    3. Zona the Great*

      My best advice was some that I didn’t appreciate at the time and you may not either. But I will tout internships till the day I die. I went to grad school and couldn’t find a job after. I kept coming across postings for internships in areas I liked but I didn’t want that. Finally gave in and interned at a state agency. Best decision ever. Now I’m a very happy program manager in another state agency. My internship was only 22 months ago and I earn good money.

      1. No longer a lurker*

        I haven’t thought of looking into internships, so that might be a good option! Thanks so much for your reply and advice!

    4. BetsCounts*

      Also consider joining the alumni association of the large state school closest to you- that should give you access to their career services center, which will be focused on finding jobs for recent graduates in your position. Also maybe consider volunteering to get some office experience?

      1. No longer a lurker*

        Volunteering and joining an alumni association sound like great ideas! I already do some volunteering in my area, though it is mostly physical work. But it shouldn’t be too hard to find some other orgs looking for office volunteers. So thank you for the suggestions!

    5. Waiting At The DMV*

      Hi there – Id be happy to provide some more targeted advice if you’d like to hop on a call. I’ve been very fortunate in my career and believe in passing it along. You can email me at jradevine@gmail.com if you’d like to chat.

      1. No longer a lurker*

        Wow thank you so much! I would definitely appreciate the advice. I’ll make sure to reach out to you soon!

    6. Asenath*

      You do need to aim right – if you’ve got a college degree and you apply for a job that requires a HS diploma, you might be dismissed as “overqualified”. It happened to me when I left university to work for a while, and didn’t even get a look-in because I was “overqualified” simply because I’d gotten some post-secondary education! To add to the suggestions of a temp agency and internships – in a much later job search, when I did have my degree, I applied for everything remotely possible – but I also especially targeted a major local employer that I knew hired people with my educational background. I knew they often didn’t have full-time jobs that they advertised externally, but I applied for anything they did have – short-term contracts, part-time contracts. Some of those I got. It’s not a guaranteed solution – some people end up doing contract work indefinitely, with all the uncertainty and gaps between contracts that can mean. But one of those jobs – and it was one it a department I hadn’t previously considered and thought a real longshot when I applied – turned into a permanent position which I enjoyed and hope to hold until I retire.

      The department I thought was my best bet never even offered me an interview, although on paper I looked like a good match, and I applied for numerous openings there. I’ve always suspected there was a bit of ageism going on, since this was after a mid-life career change, but that’s something I’ll never be able to prove and don’t worry about now.

      1. No longer a lurker*

        Thank you for sharing your story! I’ll check out some more positions with local employers and hopefully an approach similar to yours will work for me!

  167. Lynne879*

    I’ve been applying to jobs & twice I’ve had someone from HR call me, ask me a few questions & then say they’re still early in the interviewing process & will contact later for an interview if they’re interested.

    These calls were too short to be considered phone interviews. One guy just talked about the hours & what interested me about the position & that was it. Why would an employer call a candidate, but not schedule them for an in person interview?

    1. Jack Be Nimble*

      Talking about the hours and your interest in the position sounds like a pretty standard phone interview to me! Most of my phone interviews have been fifteen minutes or less and focused on logistics and other broad, big picture topics.

    2. Kathenus*

      In my field there can be a real difference between the perception and the reality of certain jobs, so the questions about what interested you about the position might be a screening call to see if your expectations and the position are a fit. On the hours, maybe they frequently get people who apply who can’t work the hours needed so they like to check that before investing more time. I have a message in to a candidate for a job right now to clarify a few things on the position before deciding where she falls in my applicant file, so I can see reasons for a quick phone screen to give or get some details.

    3. Triplestep*

      I was chatting with a recruiter last night (informally – not about any particular job) and she told me that she calls everyone who sends a resume. I could not believe my ears – that seemed excessive! But she said if she gets 90 resumes, she might call 85 people just to get a feel for them.

      I asked her if she felt she might be getting people’s hopes up by calling them, and she said she knew she probably was.

      I haven’t had the experience of having a phone interview without being passed along for a face-to-face, except for one time where the job was not at all appealing after the initial phone screen. (So I guess the feeling was mutual.) After hearing from a recruiter who “calls everyone” I will still prepare for phone screens, but I won’t get my hopes up again!

    4. MissDisplaced*

      These are normal and usually just considered phone screening.
      Often the HR department does this, but they may not be able to answer many specifics about the job, so hence it’s not an “interview” proper. They’re just checking and verifying you are who you say you are, and sometimes gauging the salary range before they present their findings to the actual hiring manager.

  168. LJay*

    So I have an applicant for a position I have been trying to fill for several months.

    She seems great, and would be a no-doubt hire, except she’s planning on working it as a second full-time job.

    She works 40 hours a week at her current job, and has been there since 1994. We pay about the same I think, but she would be in line for a pension there and they have benefits we can’t compete with. So if she were to drop one of the jobs due to tiredness, it would definitely be mine.

    The position I’m hiring for would be 40 hours as well, but is not consistent – there are some busy times and some down times throughout the shift.

    The timing of the shifts work well, without too much of a gap between them. Her commute to home and back is like 30 minutes. The commute between jobs would be like 5 minutes.

    The job takes a couple months to learn, and about 6 months to be comfortable in. And after hiring it takes about a month for a background check to clear.

    I have no other viable candidates, and the only other one I’ve had since the position was posted turned it down due to low pay. I don’t want to hire someone just to have them leave in a couple months and have to start the process over again. But at the same time, it seems like with what my company is offering this is what we are going to get. We’re paying $19 an hour, but it’s one of the richest counties in the country.

    I’m trying to get the wage increased, but headquarters is in a low cost of living area, and it’s difficult to get them to understand that money doesn’t go as far everywhere as it does there. (The pay is about $4 less for the same job at HQ as it is in the area I am hiring for, but it seems to be bearing out that that difference is still not enough. I was able to fill the position quickly at HQ and another lower cost of living area. Here I can’t even get vaguely qualified applicants.)

    So do I hire her, hoping that this person will be able to pull 80 hour weeks consistently between the two jobs? Do I hire her, assuming that this position is always going to be a revolving door and that I’m getting what I can pay for? Do I hold out hoping that the magic perfect applicant is right around the corner even though they haven’t appeared in the 4 months between posting and now? Do I hold off and continue advocating for a higher pay rate even though that won’t happen any time soon? Something else?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      You can’t make this job like 30-32 hours per week? Is it something where the person needs to be “there” and present for 8 hours total?
      I’m sure people can work 2 jobs/80 hours, but honestly it gets tough. My guess is she will be fine for a few months, but eventually it will become too much.

      1. Alex*

        yes, this. Unless there is some kind of coverage issue, I think I’d offer a 30 hour job, and see if she can get the work done in that time. 16 hour days is just too much to be alert at either job!

    2. fposte*

      I think the answer is #1 and #2 with a soupcon of #4. Ordinarily I’d say hell, no, but you really have no choice right now. I’d be thoughtful about what you’re able to be flexible on with her (IOW, are there scheduling or other optimizations you can offer and some you can’t, and do you know the difference between flexibilities you genuinely can’t offer and those you’d rather not have to accept but are preferable to not having somebody in the position? I’d also b open to being frank and kind with her about transitioning her out if either it doesn’t work or it only kind of works and you finally get a bigger budget that brings in more qualified candidates.

    3. ACDC*

      I would have said heck no, because I firmly believe that is way too much for one person to do. BUT I met someone at OldJob who had been working 2 full time jobs for close to 20 years and was very high-functioning. She has made me a believer that it is possible for some people.

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      I feel your pain. A few months ago I had an open position that I despaired of ever filling, because the client is so demanding that we really needed a writer who had pretty close to my level of experience and ability to deal with difficult people, but the agency gave me budget for someone two job titles below me (and about 25% less money).

      I ended up solving the problem with someone who works only part of the week. Someone with her level of experience would never be available at this price point except that she wants to work only 3 days a week. Between her direct report and me, we cover the days she’s off and it’s been working really well. But I did have to compromise on something — that something ended up being availability.

      As someone below suggested, is it possible to do this job, or enough of this job to significantly help you, in fewer than 40 hours/week? I’d feel much more confident in this person’s ability to manage 20 extra hours than 40.

      If not, what does TPTB want you to do while the position remains unfilled? Let that work slide? Do it yourself? I’d make a presentation (not necessarily anything formal) to higher-ups about how many resumes you’ve seen in the past few months and what crucial qualifications they were missing, and that your options are a) leave the position unfilled until a magical unicorn comes along, but knowing that X, Y, and Z will not get done during that time; b) hire someone less qualified, meaning that you’ll get only 75% (or whatever number makes sense) of the output they’re seeking from the position; or c) bump up the budget to market rate.

    5. BRR*

      I’d say either no and fight for higher pay or hire with the assumption they’ll leave soon and then advocate for higher pay.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Does seem like a candidate for jobsharing to me… 40+20 is manageable, just ask doctors & lawyers… and you could post for another half timer as well. That might bring in stay at home parents starting back into the FTE world, as well as retirees who are discovering they’re not QUITE ready to fill all their time without external structure.

  169. Anon right now*

    Hey all,
    I just found out that a man who was a supervisor in my office and had a history of inappropriate contact with interns and who was recently asked to leave (it is widely believed that this was a case of, why don’t you just step down so we don’t have to have a whole investigation) after he (allegedly) sexually assaulted a young female intern after hours is working in a similar job nearby. I was so upset by this. I thought that at least his professional license was being revoked or something. I told one of my colleagues and he kind of had an “ew” reaction, but then I overheard him telling a bunch of the other guys who then were all happy for the guy that he’d landed on his feet, and made a few jokes about keeping him away from the interns. I want to scream at everyone. I sent an email to a friend of a friend who works there to let her know what I knew about the situation regarding his departure from here and to ask her to warn her female coworkers (though to be fair, what I know is a lot of rumor and allegation – not facts that I witnessed with my own eyes). She hasn’t written back.
    Thoughts? Further action steps you would take? Have I overreacted?
    Thanks everyone.

      1. Anon right now*

        I thought he had been! The problem is that “Claire” didn’t tell me herself. I heard from another supervisor who was present at the disciplinary meeting (which means I’m not supposed to know it). The prior allegations are just things that are “known” in the office, you know? I don’t know if I CAN make a report based on that.

        1. valentine*

          If you’re willing to be fired over this, try to make the report. You can also call his current HR, whoever oversees the interns, and any college associated.

        2. Asenath*

          Do not take any action whatsoever based on second or third hand information or on bits of conversations you overheard when you don’t know the full conversation or context. Even if you’re right, you won’t be able to prove it if the supervisor finds out what you said and challenge you – or even sues – over it. And you might not be right. Gossip and rumour are often exaggerated or downright wrong.

    2. Also Anon For This*

      I would have sent the email, too.

      An alleged assault from someone who has a “history” of inappropriate behavior? Gross.

      As to your coworkers, maybe you express concern for the intern? Like, they say “I’m sure glad Greg landed on his feet!” and you can say “I just hope Claire is doing alright!”

      1. Anon right now*

        That’s a good reply! I wish I had thought of it at the time. I will add it to the repertoire.

    3. Beatrice*

      Rumor and allegation are not things you know, they’re things other people have said. Be really careful, if you’re talking to people at his new employer, about how you word the information you’re passing along. For your own protection, don’t present anything as fact, unless you have direct knowledge.

      Even if you’re dead positive he’s a terrible person who did terrible things and deserves a terrible fate – if he experiences financial losses because of what you said, and sues you for libel, you can get in pretty deep trouble if you can’t prove what you said is true and the people who can won’t stick their necks out to back you up. Even if others can help you prove it, you stand to damage your relationships with them and your employer.

      You can do your due diligence as a human being and warn other people to be careful around a person, without going so far that you risk yourself.

  170. Asahi Pepsi*

    TL;DR – if a company website doesn’t have a careers page, how can I tell if they’re hiring? Is just emailing the general questions email enough or will they be annoyed that I didn’t find their listings elsewhere?

    1. WellRed*

      We don’t have a careers page. We post jobs on a local website or two, and ocassionally on an industry specific site ( either way, you can search by company name, job category or zip code). Of course, if a company isn’t listed, it doesn’t mean they aren’t hiring. The problem with emailing their general email is that it isn’t likely to get a response or get to the right person, especially a larger company.

    2. irene adler*

      Can you email the HR dept directly?
      It is okay to ask them where they post their job openings.

  171. hermit crab*

    Today I was copied on an email that included the sentence, “I would love to but I am having a colonoscopy instead.” OK then!

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Technically follows Miss Manners’ rule about being allowed to back out of previous engagements if the replacement activity is obviously less fun.

  172. throwaway*

    This is a terrible question and I’m sure I already know the answer, but… is it ever ok to use a work computer for adult websites? I have a laptop that I take home occasionally for both work and personal use (I know, that’s an issue in and of itself but I don’t have another computer aside from my phone at the moment.) I would never use it for adult things during work hours or while logged into the VPN, etc. It would purely be on my own time using my own wifi in a private browser so nothing would be saved. I’m coming down on the side of NEVER EVER, but I’m still curious if anyone thinks this might be ok.

      1. valentine*

        No. Do not use any work equipment for this. There was a letter like this, involving a work laptop during business travel.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      NEVER EVER.

      This came up before, and was looked at thoroughly from the tech side and others, and NEVER EVER. (Sidenote: Do not follow advice on the internet about how you can load things on your work computer in special ways so work will never know about them because they are wearing special stealth hats. The internet is wrong.)

      Buy a cheap tablet if you really need a bigger screen.

    4. Anon for this one comment*

      So today, another coworker learned, and shared with me, that one of our higher ups was spotted watching porn on his computer after hours. People in a nearby office could see it from outside due to the position of his monitor. We are soooo shocked and a bit skeeved out. But yeah, he probably would be shocked to know he’s been seen doing this.

    5. LGC*

      Dude, I don’t even look at AAM on my work computer! (Granted, my workstation is a desktop. But also, AAM is not an adult website even including Duck Club.)

      Basically, the way I think about it is – would I be okay with IT knowing about this? So I’ll do incidental errands like banking and such. I refrain from most social media. I also don’t really check my personal email.

      I mean, unless you have other issues IT won’t go digging through your history. But I’d rather not run that chance and give them that level of access to my personal life.

    6. Gatomon*

      Not worth the risk. Maybe IT pays attention, maybe they don’t, but if you get some mega awful virus because of a bad pop up, do you want to explain what you were doing? Nope!

      I’ve occasionally used my work laptop for personal reasons while traveling, like checking my bank account, personal email, checking the news, but never adult material. Nothing I would be embarrassed doing in front of my peers, basically.

    8. UtOh!*

      I work in IT, and can say honestly that you should NEVER do this. Adult sites are rife with spyware, viruses, and other nasties that could wreak havoc on your computer and guess who then has to fix it, and potentially find out what you’ve been doing?

      This is a BIG NO from me!

  173. the cat's meow*

    How do you get your mojo back for job hunting when you’re leaving because you’re miserable? It’s hard to say good things about myself when I’m mistreated all day and not feeling successful in current job. I’m newly 40 and this is my first job search worrying about ageism, which isn’t helping…

    1. Drop Bear*

      My suggestion is to write your resume, cover letters etc as if you were writing them for your best friend and she/he had all the same experience etc as you do. Once you’ve written them, send them off; then read them to yourself – out loud preferably – but this time about yourself. The idea is that if you keep hearing positives about yourself they will become easier to believe and will drown out the negative voices of others, and you’ll feel more confident when you go to an interview. Hope that makes sense. Good luck!

      3. AeroEngineer*

        Omg, this is just what I needed. I have to send out a bunch of applications today (looks like I again didn’t get the job…) and I have the same issue as OP.

    2. Not a Victim!*

      Are you me? Wow!

      I’ve been trying to remember what I used to be like before I wound up in this toxic swamp. That person is the one who needs to write my cover letters.

    3. ijustwanttoworksomewherenormal*

      Oh my gosh! I totally hear you – I just posted about my crazy and demoralizing workplace below, and am struggling with how to talk about my accomplishments in interviews when I feel like a worthless piece of trash. One of my former coworkers who escaped had something like this to say after a few weeks at her new job: “It’s not you, it’s that place. You are smart, and you are good at what you do. That’s why you got the job, and you’re still you – you’re still smart and still good. That place makes you feel like you’re not, but you are. You’ll feel it after you leave – you’ll return to yourself, and you will thrive in a better place. Don’t let that place keep you there by tricking you into thinking you’re not good enough to leave.”

      And now that I type that out, I feel like I might be working at Hill House or some other haunted place that feeds on souls.

      Anyway, what do you like to do outside of work? What are you good at as a person, not a job-holder? Try to focus on that and draw a confidence boost from whatever you’re proud of outside the workplace. If you don’t have anything like that (I know work can eat all of our free time as well as our souls), try a class or workshop in something that interests you and see if that helps.

    4. Triplestep*

      I am 55 and job searching, and I was chatting with a recruiter last night (not about a job – just informally) and she said ageism is rooted in the fear of hiring someone who cannot handle technology. Many hiring managers have had the experience with one older worker, and it makes them give the side eye to anyone they consider who is older than they are.

      And even if they *haven’t* had that experience, so many people have had to teach their older relatives how to use a new phone! I never thought about that, but I guess its a really common experience (I know I’ve done it) and it informs how people look at candidates.

      She said one way to combat this is to highlight your technical skills in your resume; have a section for technical skills, and highlight technical skills in each work experience section.

      I am also miserable at work and I suggest that in your off time, you make an extra effort to be social. I need to take my own advice here, but I have found that I feel better about myself when I’ve been around friends who know me and would be appalled to hear there are people at work who do not think that *I* am the cat’s meow!

      1. MissDisplaced*

        It’s funny but I’m over 50 and have not run into the ageism thing much in my job search much. I think this is due to a couple of things. One is that I have a lot of current technology: digital communications, social media, web design, coding, etc., but also that I finished my master’s degree only a few years ago. IDK, It must make me seem younger on paper? So, I think you may be right about the technology factor! I was only job hunting a year ago, so my experience is recent. I would suggest older applicants highlight their tech experience and/or consider taking a class or two they can highlight (even if it’s a software they’ve been using for 20 years).

        It also helps that I tend to look a bit younger than my age, more like in my early 40’s and I do tend to dress younger due to my personal punk-meets-bohemian style I favor. I get away with that because I’m a “creative.” HaHaHa! There were a few interviews I went on where I did kind of sense the interviewer was a bit surprised I was a bit more mature upon meting me. Nothing was said, but you just get that gut feeling.

        1. the cat's meow*

          Solidarity to all! I was just advised to remove my tech skills section as I’m trying to get out of strictly technical jobs and more into pm type roles, hmm. I have done more tech support in the past, and am usually the person who trains others in new tech, so I’ll have to think more about how to frame it.

          I’m currently volunteering for the election in my free time right now, which is a mix of feeling like I’m doing something useful, but also a constant reminder of how toxic my non-work world has become, too. It’ll be easier to get back to other interests after November, methinks…

  174. Payroll Lifer*

    Daily reader, first time questioner. Any hints would be appreciated,please.
    How can I get out of my silo of a career?
    I have done payroll for 30 years and would like a change. I did go back to school for business. But even with that I only get call backs for payroll. Thank you for any advice.

    1. Anon for this one comment*

      What do you want to do instead? It seems like you could transition to maybe…payroll or other bill paying functions as part of a job like office manager/business manager? Human resources. I have a friend who transitioned from traditional payroll to supporting payroll software in a customer service roll (but I am guessing that’s not what you want).

      1. Payroll Lifer*

        Thank you for the advice. I think I need to think more about moving to a HR role. I just don’t want to start at entry level again. The payroll support is something that I will look further into.

    2. atexit8*

      None to give.
      What you are experiencing is quite common.
      I am guessing 30 years = over 50?

      My goal would be to save and save some more and retire early at 60.

        1. atexit8*

          Many of the jobs in my field are for the “youngsters”.
          Earlier this year I interviewed for a job at a company 20 minutes from my home.
          Perfect!
          Except they ended up hiring hiring an intern for 6 months.
          That position has opened again exactly 6 months later, except now they have explicitly stated “Intern” in the job title.
          I thought I had done something wrong during the interview.
          It turns out it was something I could not control — my age!

          I am so glad I lived below my means my entire working life.
          I plan on retiring at 60.

          Good luck with your job search.

    3. Grace Less*

      I think you have to demonstrate (on your resume) the skills you want to use. So if you were looking for an HR role, you’d be emphasizing employee relations, compliance, confidentiality. For business development, maybe you’re emphasizing data management and ability to meet deadlines. Look for the areas of your past experience that overlap with where you want to head, and play those up. If you can, find volunteer role or take on new assignments at work to help build areas where you’re less experienced.
      Look at small employers – they are more likely to have broad roles, so maybe you build up your “X”skills for a bit by taking a job that is Payroll + “X”.

      1. Payroll Lifer*

        Thank you for your advice. I will rework my resume. It does look more financial than HR and I do have HR skills from my past positions. I never thought about business development that could be interesting. I will look into that.

    4. Triplestep*

      I am in a similar situation at age 55. I would like a career change, but am having a hard time being considered for one and also don’t want an entry level salary. I think the hardest thing about this is proving to young recruiters and hiring managers that wanting less responsibility in a field in which I am not a SME is a valid choice. They are on the way up in their careers, and many do not understand.

      I am working my network like crazy, which has resulted in a consulting opportunity for someone who recruits in my industry. If this works out, it will allow me to do this on the side while I take a role that does not pay as much as a make now in my current field.

      I am also looking for volunteer opportunities that might lead to paid freelance work later, like writing content or managing social media.

      Basically, I am thinking of myself as an emerging member of the gig economy. If I can find a lower level job in the field that appeals to me – one with a short commute that won’t regularly require me to bring work home from the office – I can still get health insurance and contribute to a 401K, but I can also take on some side work to supplement my income. I don’t have kids at home anymore, and I am done paying college tuition, so my time and financial needs are different now.

      Good luck!

      1. Payroll Lifer*

        Thank you for some good ideas. Tax time is coming up and for me that could be a second job. I now have some more ideas to think about.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t know much about payroll (other than I get my direct deposit! HaHaHa!), but could you consider adjunct functions such as AP/AR, purchasing, operations/inventory, contracts, or financial forecasting/analytics type functions? Or maybe supporting software if you’re a SAP or Oracle guru?

      The other suggestion might be to work at a smaller company as an general office manager where you would still have payroll (sorry!) but a whole host of other functions too. I don’t know if that is doable, as you’d likely take a hit with retirement and/or benefits. If you wanted to go this route, you might be better off waiting until you get offered an early retirement package, and then looking for this later on.

      1. Payroll Lifer*

        Thank you for your response. I am thinking I should ask about being the back up person in other areas, this would add something new to my routine.

  175. August*

    How typical is it to see incredibly time-consuming, labor-intensive projects for coding positions? A friend of mine recently had an interview where he was asked to complete a project in three languages (none of which were listed on his resume or were directly relevant to the job). When he asked for a week to complete them, the interviewer agreed, but said “some candidates typically only take two days.” Is this normal?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      Did the interviewer mean two full days, or just give a couple of days for someone to find a spare hour to crank out the assignment. Because tests like that should be measured in single-digit hours, not days.

      I’m not a coder, but why would they screen for people writing in other languages than are used for the position, and not at all for position-relevant language(s)? Seems like a waste of time for everyone involved.

      1. Psyche*

        Yeah. Screening for a skill that they presumable won’t use and did not claim to have seems like a very bad sign.

      2. August*

        I have no clue, just that when my friend asked for a week to complete the assignment, the interviewer responded that another candidate had gotten it back to them by Monday (the interview was on Friday). And, from what my friend’s said, a part of the job is learning and using new languages on the fly, so the reasoning doesn’t seem completely off. The languages for this project aren’t listed as required or recommended on the job posting, however.

      1. August*

        Sorry, I don’t work in tech, so maybe that descriptor isn’t accurate– I wouldn’t have a clue either way. When I wrote “labor-intensive,” I was referring more to the part where my friend’s being asked to learn and complete a project in three completely new (to him) languages in a week. Is that not considered laborious in that field?

    3. Easily Amused*

      Sadly, doing an unpaid project has become very typical for programming interviews though 3 languages is excessive and odd. During one particularly onerous job search I ended up doing a web app in Angular (which I hadn’t used before), a mobile app in Swift (I had only coded in Objective-C before), and a project that paid me $250 via Pay Pal to analyze an old defunct website and tell them what was good about it and what could be better with a specific action plan that I would implement (without any internal knowledge of the company whatsoever). I was so burned out from coding all day and then coming home and cramming on these projects and ultimately not getting the job (Angular – I was too expensive even though I went through a recruiter and they knew my number on Day 1 before all the hoops, Swift – what I turned in was not production ready which I didn’t realize was a requirement of a “let’s see what you can do in 3 days”, and the last one I didn’t want anyway) – pretty demoralizing. I finally landed a job doing iOS without any project or even hard core tech interview where I learned Swift quite handily (love that language) and got recruited away to an even better position and company about 3 months ago also doing iOS where the focus is on smart people doing good work in the most collaborative environment I’ve found. No coding challenge required. I personally think excessive coding challenges are required by people who don’t know how to spot someone who knows what they’re doing just by talking to them but I’m older (close to 50) and I used to be able to just land jobs based on my portfolio of work so things have changed a lot and there are a lot more young go-getters to choose from now. Seems that every employer uses a different stack of tools and they have the luxury of finding the person who already knows those so they can hit the ground running. Best of luck to your friend in the job search! p.s. my current job is through a consulting firm so he might think about getting in that way where I think the companies he would interview with might consider him as already vetted.

  176. Not a Victim!*

    Follow up to last week, when I sent a memo to my boss asking her to deal with the bullying that happened right in front of her in a couple of meetings.

    She waited until today, when I had the day off, and sent me an email that was basically just Eff You.

    It’s a toxic workplace, and I have already started job searching, but I still had hope that my boss had some humanity in her.

    1. Triplestep*

      That stinks. I love that she sent it to you when you had the day off – it proves what a coward she is.

      I once had a job I hated and found stressful due to all the bad behavior. I was working late in the office with the major perpetrators (a senior co-worker) and we were going to leave at the same time (he had a key to lock up and I did not). He waited until I logged off and then hit “send” on an e-mail he’d written to tell me “word to the wise! don’t spend so much time on personal e-mails. Our boss would not appreciate it.” (He literally said “word to the wise”).

      Of course I got this e-mail first thing the next morning when we were both there sitting five feet apart! I printed it out and brought it to my boss asking “Do you have a problem if my husband and I communicate a few times a week to figure out who is grocery shopping and who is picking up the kids?” He did not. But this whole episode really helped me see that senior co-worker for what he was.

      Good luck with your search!

    2. Kathenus*

      The one good thing is that she did it by email, so if you want to escalate to HR or your grandboss you have a written record of her response. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

  177. smile*

    Hi Ask A Manager,

    I am applying for a job and they use Taleo (so it’s thorough). In the ‘work history’ section of the ATS it says include up to 10 yrs of experience if applicable. You can choose to upload a resume’ afterwards.

    Do I need to modify my Resume and remove any jobs past the 10 year mark (very few) – and they aren’t relevant to this position per se? Or include them? I’ve got nothing to hide, just confused.

    The intro made it a point to ensure that everything was complete and accurate…..

    Can you assist please? Thanks!

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      If everything after 10 years isn’t relevant anyway, you might as well leave it off

  178. MPA*

    I work at a small digital marketing agency. The company is owned by a husband and wife team who are extremely dynamic and charismatic. In the past 8 months, my boss (the woman) sort of took me under her wing and was giving me more responsibilities and opportunities.
    I loved it, tbh, even though I had my times of getting stressed out. Because I still had my own full time role, I sometimes found it hard to keep up with everything. I didn’t make a lot of money, and even though I was an hourly employee, my boss would call me on weekends and holidays to make sure things got done. (Due to the nature of our work) This led me to me never really feeling like I was off. Additionally, we signed a new client and my workload tripled. At the same time, I went on a week long trip with part of my team. The final day of the trip, our bosses took off and we decided to leave when we felt our work was done. They found out, and had us stay the full day. Once the day was over, we planned to leave, but they told us to stay the night for safety reasons. What followed felt like a power struggle.
    I have thought about this day so many times because it really was outside of how I would normally behave. I was tired, getting sick, and the complaining of my coworkers was contagious. I was already frustrated because I felt like no matter how much we gave, it wasn’t enough and even though many of us on that trip had put in long hours, they didn’t trust us to make these decisions for ourselves. Needless to say, we ended up leaving that night.
    I lost so much as a result. We were suspended, someone else was hired to take my place, and when I came back to work, I was totally lost. My boss didn’t properly communicate with me for two full work days, trusting my coworker to deliver a message to me about my role, but he didn’t do a very good job of it which further compounded the problem.
    Because we are a small company, there is no place to hide. The coworker I mentioned before supported me tremendously during my first week back. I started worrying that perhaps I was growing too dependent on him to make it through the workday and the very next day they moved forward with plans to make him manager.
    The original plan had been that this was something we would do together, but clearly I lost that opportunity. But what made it so hard was that I now felt like I was losing him, too. The relationship had to change for obvious reasons.
    Part of me feels like everything that happened, happened for a reason. Maybe I wouldn’t have made a good manager or team leader. I have so much less stress now but with that I also feel much less invested in my job overall. Where once I proactively sought to build employee morale, now I feel very sidelined and not a part of the team. Keep in mind, we are a small company and I am also probably the oldest member of our team. Most of the team knows each other and are related or grew up knowing each other except for the coworker turned manager I mentioned before. So I also feel very lonely.
    There is more to what happened then I can express here, but I just feel a little lost. I am looking elsewhere, because I doubt there is any real chance for growth here. My heart was broken, and I know I have to take some responsibility for that. I lost important relationships, like with my boss, and I lost my opportunity to grow in my career.
    I don’t want to run away from the situation, but at the same time I don’t know if I can feel the same kind of happiness here again. It has been a month. Most days are okay, but sometimes, I still just get really down.
    Not sure what I amooking for here, just needed to express myself or see if anyone anywhere has been in a similar situation.

    1. ..Kat..*

      I hope you find a better job with better pay. Alison cautions that small, family-owned businesses are difficult to work for and often boundary-violating. This job does not sound like a good place to work. Good luck.

    2. WellRed*

      There is zero chance for growth, your boss took advantage of you all the time, didn’t trust you, tried to, essentially, keep you sonewhere against your will and then retailiated in a childish manner. Also, referring to yourself as getting heartbroken? No, just no. This was an abusive, one sided business relationship. Take what you’ve learned here and find a job at a real company.

      1. valentine*

        WellRed is right. Your boss took you under her wing to lure you into a disproportionate sense of gratitude. There was too much togetherness, venting, and us vs them during the work trip. I hope there was work to do when the bosses told you to stay all day, not just because they felt like it. Everyone behaved like parents/children in an abusive family. When you’re free and working decent hours for proper pay, you’ll gain the perspective you need to avoid this in future. Fly and be free. Only you are on Team You.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry this happened to you, but unfortunately this is often the case with very small owner/involved companies. It can be even worse if the owners are “creative” such as this case. I’ve been at a few of these places myself and they rarely end well. It’s not your fault. You didn’t do anything wrong.

      Any boss who punishes employee for leaving and wanting to go home after a long trip is crazy and wildly overstepping normal employer-employee bounds.

      Begin your search for a new job, preferably one with a larger organization with more structure.

    4. PJM*

      Holy Cow! I don’t know if you realize you sound like a beaten down victim of abuse. Your boss is unbelievably controlling and abusive. You are an adult and you are allowed to make decisions about your own safety and whether you wanted to stay the night or not. Your boss clearly wants to control you and use you to get as much work out of you as possible without giving you any ability to have a life outside of work. Their requests are unreasonable and you should leave asap and stop blaming yourself because you did absolutely nothing wrong here. Keep your confidence and don’t allow them to gaslight you and think you’re the one in the wrong.

  179. Kathleen Becker*

    I’m not good at being detail-oriented and after working in a myriad of jobs and not being good enough at them, I realize this is something I really need to work on improving. I’m naturally inclined to being absent minded. I frequently lose things and get lost in parking lots. What ways have others improved and cultivated this more as a skill?

    1. Triplestep*

      You don’t say what you do know to try to keep track of details, but writing things down helps. Have you ever heard of Bullet Journal? I use a modified method of the original by Ryder Caroll – do a ‘net search on it and you’ll see that mentioned first. Some people make very elaborate journals which I find more scrapbook than time/detail management tool – that would not work for me.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Bullet journals have helped me a lot at work. I’m not particularly bad at details, but I found at my current job I just have so many things that need follow-up and attention that I was forgetting. My notepad has become critical!
        Staples has good, fairly inexpensive bullet journal project pads with a separate “tasks” column.

    2. tab*

      As I age I use technology and repetition to help my failing memory. If I go someplace regularly, I always try to always park is the same area. To do that I have to park as far from the entrance as possible, but I know extra steps are good for me. If I park someplace new, I take photos of my car and the nearby signs. To stop forgetting where I put things, I have specific spot where I always put things (e.g. a dish by the garage door for my keys and phone, a box for incoming mail on a table near the desk). I also keep shopping lists on google drive. That way I can access them no matter which device I have, and I can update them on my laptop.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Beyond these specific tips, have you ever read up on ADD? The absent-minded thing is one trait– if you have more, it might be worth discussing with a care provider. And whether or not that matches you, I’d still suggest reading websites that help people with ADD develop coping strategies.

  180. ijustwanttoworksomewherenormal*

    I would deeply appreciate advice on coping with a subtly abusive supervisor. The top person at my nonprofit projects a warm facade and is well-liked by the board and many lower level staff. But she’s horrible to the managers who work closely with her. Two have quit, and many of us are looking to leave. I see smart, talented professionals reduced to tears on a weekly basis because of her behavior. Which typically consists of mischaracterizing a conversation you’ve had (or inventing a conversation you haven’t had) and then berating you for being sloppy and disrespecting her by not doing what she wanted. She’s also a micromanager, and takes parts of people’s jobs away when they make mistakes (or fail to read her mind) and does them herself. Then she complains that she has too much to do and needs us to step up because she can’t be the only one who does any work. And she does strange things, like chewing out a manager for wearing an item of clothing she deemed unprofessional (it wasn’t) and then wearing the same thing herself a week later. Basically, she strips our confidence and crushes our spirits, while we continue to work like dogs (our workloads are all insane) because we care about each other and the people we help.

    I now spend more days than not holding back tears at work. I try to be optimistic and positive (both because I don’t want to contribute to the toxic environment, and because this is the only place I can do the kind of work I love without moving to another city) but am totally burned out. Meanwhile, I have to keep motivating my team and putting on a good show for donors. I’m looking for a therapist and hope counseling will help me survive as a person, but I don’t know what to do at work. I don’t know how to respond to her attacks, or how to interact with her when she puts on her nice face. Any suggestions? I will try just about anything!

      1. ijustwanttoworksomewherenormal*

        This is helpful, thanks! I’m not one of her primary targets, but she’s left me reeling a few times.

    2. PJM*

      Sorry, but there is no answer except to leave this job. I was in the exact same boat trying to please an ogre for years! I wasted years of my life making excuses for staying. I now regret how long I put up with it. There is no trying to reason with the unreasonable. Please just get out. In the meantime, document everything, you never know when you will need it.

      1. ijustwanttoworksomewherenormal*

        Glad to hear you got out! I do need to start documenting . . . I can see myself needing it sooner rather than later.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t think you can fix her, and I think that it’s quite likely you’d be able to find a job that would be a stronger positive overall without moving to another city. This is the nonprofit/service sector fallacy at work–that because the mission is worthy you have to put up with whatever shit is dished out. You don’t. (Where have the two who quit gone, for a start?) This job is actively bad for you and your mental health.

      It does occur to me that it might in the mean time be worth coordinating with other managers to get some solidarity and to strategize a little–it’s often easier to question something happening to somebody else than to you. (When Jane gets berated for wearing her knit skirt or whatever, somebody else can say “It sounds like our existing dress code isn’t clear. Is there a model we should look to instead?” Note that you’re always wanting to make this a structural question, not a one-off question. “The existing workflow has been really effective at turning things around in time for the newsletter. If we’re adding another layer of reading to it, should we consider changing the release dates?”)

      And If this isn’t happening already, it can also be useful to up the accountability on both sides by meeting one-to-one regularly with her with a list of your goals and achievements; when she has a tantrum, you can raise her dissatisfaction at the next meeting (“I was surprised to hear your frustration yesterday about the progress on the project, since when we talked Friday you indicated you were okay with how it was going. Is there a better way for me to check in with you about your reservations?”).

      But mostly, your boss sucks and isn’t going to change, and you need to find ways to make it okay in your head for you to move on for your own good.

    4. Alex*

      Wow, that sounds like a terrible situation. Who does this person report to? Anyone? Are exit interviews done where this is being reported to someone?

      I am lucky that I work in a big university system that has an ombuds office, and this sounds like the kind of thing that I’d bring to them. But otherwise, I’m not sure there’s all that much you can do, unless there is a group of you that have enough seniority or influence with whomever this woman reports to that you can take your concerns to them. I’m sure that they don’t want an exodus of all their experienced managers.

      Can you think outside the box about what kind of work would make you happy? I know you said that you can’t do this kind of work anywhere else, but what is it that you like about this work, and is there another kind of work you can transition to that would also have those same kind of satisfaction points? Is it working with a specific population? What other ways could you do that? I’d try to identify what exactly makes this work gratifying for you and see if you can think of other contexts where that would also be the case, even if it is not exactly the same kind of work.

    5. valentine*

      Don’t separate the work from the working conditions. Do you still love the work when doing it means your supervisor abuses you? Dial back so you are not caring more than you’re cared for. Unless the job is stopping you being homeless or underfed, you don’t have to work like a dog. If working a sane amount of hours and accomplishing a sustainable amount of work hurts anyone, that’s not on you. What happens when you mine less than 16 tons/day isn’t down to you. You can shrug off that burden. If there’s nothing to be done about the conditions, including the supervisor, I hope you’ll look to leave, even if it’s to a different field or city. This isn’t sustainable. The people you’re serving won’t be better served if you’re seriously ill in a month versus three or six. Think of someone you want the best for and free yourself as you would them.

    6. ijustwanttoworksomewherenormal*

      Thanks everyone! It helps to hear that I really should be job searching, and I appreciate the new strategies to try until I get out.

  181. Yarn petter*

    Hi all- question about an interview I may be going on relatively soon. It is an interview that involves a “teach back” portion. I will be taught a portion of a skill and expected to teach it back. I don’t have any real concerns about that as I tend to pick these types of things up quickly but I also tend to learn new skills like this by doing as opposed to simply listening and watching someone else.

    My first thought is to take notes on the steps as I am being taught the activity and then, if I have any question whatsoever about it, ask if I can run thru it first “to make sure I’ve got the process down correctly” prior to doing the teach back. My thought process on this is that they are looking for 2 things- can I learn new material in a reasonably quick time and can I then turn around and accurately teach that material to someone else.

    Am I thinking about this correctly? Is there some risk in asking to run through it first before doing the teach back (assuming the material is not so simple that that would be a red flag)? I am not expected to know anything about the material being taught prior to the interview- the material is relatively new to everyone and a substantial education period is built into the position- before we would be expected to then train others in the process. Open to any thoughts or suggestions!

    1. Smile*

      There is actually something used in medicine called the ‘teachback method’ to check for understanding when you are talking to patients (such as the end of the visit).

      You ask them if they understand everything and then ask them to repeat back to you what they are supposed to do. You have to do it w/o being condescending.

      You’d be surprised how many times the original message relayed does not = what the recipient understood it to mean.

      Don’t rely on this post, do a little research. Hopefully that made some sense!

  182. Unused Brains*

    Big picture question. My biggest frustration with my work life as a whole is that I’m not using my mind enough. I know that in every job, there is a lot of rote work that isn’t especially mentally stimulating. So maybe the answer is always going to be, “No and never.” But is there a way to work your way into a job where you get to use your imagination, your creativity, your analytical insights – your unique intellectual strengths – and receive an appropriate amount of credit for your work?

    I realize I probably come across as naive and entitled for asking this. I know that most of the time, you have to pay your dues as a team player having cool ideas that someone above you or the company as a whole takes credit for. But is there a way to break out of that? Is there a light at the end of the tunnel of tedious tasks and the occasional creative project that someone else gets credit for? I really want to use my brains.

    1. Researchalator Lady*

      You can use your brains on the tedious tasks and by doing them well, faster, better, and smarter than anyone else; for example, identifying ways to streamline 80% of the process for 20% of the cost (Pareto principle); then your boss(es) will notice and give you more opportunities… good luck!

      1. Unused Brains*

        Thank you for the suggestion! That is exactly what I do. Sadly, it isn’t always appreciated. About half the time, it’s seen as trying too hard.

        I think I came across as younger in my post. I’m about 40. So this is a decades-long frustration. I’ve done a wide variety of jobs and explored a lot of different options. I really want to do something more intellectual, but in every job, even volunteer jobs, I’m asked to “know your place,” and hold back in that area. I have a master’s degree and a lot to show for myself outside of work.

  183. Damayanti D Bradley*

    I am so sorry to hear about your cat! In my family we are dealing with a medical crisis and my aunt can only bring her lifelong companion Karma with her to an assisted living facility for a steep fee. She is on a fixed income and I am trying to raise the money to keep them together. There is a link in my name if you would like more info.

  184. Tee*

    I work at a school in a non-teaching position and I have slowly come to DESPISE our Assistant Principal. She hasn’t done anything particularly horrible to me, but I have had a bad feeling about her from day 1. This weekend I’ve had two dreams about her!! WTF!! I need to figure out a way to hate her less.

  185. Unicorn Pasta*

    I have a third interview tomorrow and they’ve asked me to come in a bit early to meet with their Executive Recruiter. Just curious, why would they have me meet with a recruiter during the final stage of the interview process? I thought recruiters were really only used at the beginning.

    This is an in-house recruiter, if that makes any difference.

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